The wishful believers
As we observed last night, the BBC’s Andrew Neil has reacted with rather poor grace to his chiding at the hands of respected statisticians Jim and Margaret Cuthbert. Neil embarked on a Twitter blocking spree and tried to rewrite history, claiming that he’d “simply offered” the blunt claim that there had been no cuts to the Scottish budget in the last five years “as one measure” of the money available to Holyrood.
The problem for Neil is that we recorded video of his Sunday interview with the SNP’s Angus Robertson, and anyone can see for themselves that Neil made an unequivocal assertion with no suggestion whatsoever that there were any alternative measures.
“In real terms there’s been – no – cut”, said Neil, spitting out the last three words with dramatic pauses between them for emphasis, in a statement whose stark absence of ambiguity unfortunately left him no wiggle room when the Cuthberts politely but firmly pointed out that it was “ridiculous” to argue that there hadn’t been any cuts, and that the budget “clearly has gone down”.
But Neil’s embarrassment is illustrative of a much wider delusion.
Followers of this site’s social media accounts will very likely have encountered a particular group of angry Unionists inexplicably still fighting the referendum campaign despite having won it more than a year ago. Their particular grievance is with our Wee Blue Book (read by over a million people last year), and a few lines in it on the subject of Scotland’s economy which the angry Unionists furiously claim to be “lies”.
(Many of the alleged “fabrications” of the WBB are in fact just quotes it’s printed from other sources, such as the Financial Times, all sourced and clearly labelled as such.)
We’ve always ignored them, partly because the claims – which are chiefly levelled by an obsessive, abusive businessman with self-confessed attention-seeking issues (see the quote below from a 2011 Telegraph interview) – have no merit at all and partly because there hasn’t seemed much point in getting drawn into an argument about the referendum when it’s over and there’s no second one on the immediate horizon.
But it’s perhaps worth taking a moment to lay out some facts as an illustration of how humans will seize on any case, no matter how obviously full of giant, gaping holes it is, in order to believe something if they really, really want it to be true.
The Unionists primarily object to a line in the WBB’s “Economy” section which says “Scotland subsidises the UK by billions of pounds every year, and has done for many decades”. Yet this claim is easily verified, using only figures provided by those either neutral or actively hostile to the cause of independence.
In 1997 the UK government explicitly admitted in Parliament that Scotland’s net subsidy to the rest of the UK over the preceding 18 years had been in the order of £30bn, despite the oil price for most of that period being around $20 a barrel.
(Since that time, of course, the price of oil has been far higher, and is still more than twice that level even after the crash that happened around the start of 2015. But as we’ve recently pointed out, the health of the Scottish economy is far more complex and nuanced than simply a matter of looking at what the oil price is anyway.)
When independent analysts FullFact investigated Scotland’s finances in 2014, they concluded that Scottish taxpayers had over the last 30 years contributed £222 billion more to the UK exchequer than their fair share – about £7.4bn per year on average.
The Unionists protest, legitimately, that the UK also spent disproportionately more on Scotland to partly balance that contribution out. The “Better Together” campaign used a figure of £1200 a year, which for the sake of argument we’ll take at face value.
For most of the oil era the population of Scotland was just above 5 million. If we take a generous average of 5.1m and multiply that up by the claimed £1200 we get £6.12bn a year in extra spending, balanced against our £7.4bn in extra contribution, meaning Scotland paid around £1.3bn a year more into the UK on average than it got back, according to the official No campaign’s own figures.
(And it’s perhaps worth noting in passing that any “UK average” figure is in itself being distorted upwards because it includes Scotland’s higher contribution.)
But that’s a crude back-of-an-envelope calculation which disguises the full magnitude of the subsidy. To get a better picture of the reality we have to turn to Professor Brian Ashcroft of the Fraser Of Allander Institute.
The husband of former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander, he’s nobody’s idea of a Scottish nationalist. And in 2013 he set out to prove that Scotland hadn’t had a rough deal out of the Union since the oil boom:
Prof. Ashcroft’s figures asserted that in real terms over 32 years Scotland had spent (or more accurately, had spent on it) £15 billion more than the amount of money it had earned in taxes – a net average overspend of £469m a year.
That’s an absolutely tiny deficit by international standards, somewhere in the region of 0.3% of Scotland’s GDP of £158bn.
But Ashcroft goes on to note, albeit somewhat reluctantly, that even those figures do Scotland a disservice. They’re severely skewed by the fact that Scotland contributed billions of pounds a year to servicing UK debt, even though – as he notes – Scotland had incurred almost none of that debt itself, because it had almost no deficit.
This means that Scotland was in overall surplus by about £68 billion.”
Prof. Ashcroft isn’t clear about whether he’s calculating that debt-interest stat over 19 years of GERS or the full 32-year period. But if we take the most Unionist-favourable interpretation and say it’s 32, that’s a net average subsidy from Scotland to the rest of the UK of £2.2bn a year. (Over 19 years it’s £3.6bn a year.)
That figure still understates the reality significantly, because of course Scotland would have enjoyed considerable additional benefits from that £68bn surplus, the larger part of which accrued early in the period. It could either have invested it in a Norway-style oil fund, generating uncountable billions of pounds in extra income, or spent it in the economy, generating growth and tax receipts. (Or most likely a combination of both.)
Nevertheless, what we find by examining only figures provided by the Unionist side is that beyond any possible question, Scotland HAS subsidised the UK by billions of pounds a year for decades, exactly as stated by the Wee Blue Book.
(Depending on how you interpret the figures the exact size of that subsidy is anywhere from £1.3bn a year to several times as much.)
The angry Unionists simply ignore Prof. Ashcroft’s rather inconvenient findings on the subject, and the obsessive attention-starved businessman then cherry-picks some misleading statistics, isolated from context, to paint a gloomier picture that anyone willing to be blinded by a snappy-looking graph can convince themselves is real.
Anyone foolish or naive enough to attempt to engage in debate with them is told that the figures being discussed here refer to the past and are therefore irrelevant. But then the WBB clearly identifies that they’re historic, and outlines exactly what it’s referring to, citing most of the sources we’ve listed in this article.
The future, obviously, is unknown. Nobody – including the UK government – predicted the oil crash, for example. But as Prof. Ashcroft (again) noted earlier this year, while a low oil price damages the headline state of the economy the real-world effect is very different, and on balance probably beneficial.
(Because the money the government loses in oil taxation is recouped in other ways, eg by taking in more corporate tax from businesses doing better thanks to lower fuel and energy costs, more personal tax from more people being employed and having more money to spend, and lower welfare expenditure. The low oil price also brings about a very considerable direct redistribution of wealth into people’s pockets – the cost of fuel has plummeted by around 50p a litre in the last couple of years, saving consumers far more money than any amount of tinkering around with tax rates.)
In looking to the future the angry Unionists also deliberately ignore the fact that the whole point of independence is to do things differently. Their figures are unfailingly based on an independent Scotland pursuing the same failed policies and spending plans pursued under the stewardship of the UK – which have left Scotland lumbered with a large share of the UK’s vast (and still growing) £1.5 trillion debt and the crippling interest payments on it, and a shattered manufacturing economy.
They also don’t take account of the fact that Scotland shoulders a disproportionately high share of the UK’s debt burden, nor the likely outcome of any negotiations over debt in the event of independence. The Scottish and UK governments have widely differing views on what would be a fair share for Scotland – partly arising from Prof. Ashcroft’s calculations – which would have a major effect on Scotland’s future deficit.
(The Unionists, of course, assume unquestioningly that the worst-case scenario would prevail, even though Westminster has no means of forcing an independent Scotland to accept any debt at all, especially if it holds to its bluff over refusing a currency union.)
All of these facts are self-evident. The figures showing Scotland’s huge net historical subsidy to the UK are uncontested by either side. Yet the obsessive attention-starved businessman is feted not only by a handful of loonies on Twitter, but also by a Unionist press which has been driven half-mad by its hatred of this site’s scrutiny of it, and which fawns over his comical, fundamentally-flawed blog posts and frantically tries to puff him up as a serious, credible counterpoint to our analysis.
Andrew Neil is only the latest victim of the No side’s desperate search for a hero. The angry Unionists’ attacks on the WBB, most of them built on deliberate, tortured semantic misinterpretations and the avoidance of awkward facts, fall to pieces under the slightest forensic gaze – not from us, but from expert neutrals and Unionists like the Cuthberts and Brian Ashcroft.
The simple truth is that the No side believes a second independence referendum is inevitable, and is terrified that they’ll lose it. They blew most of a 30-point head start last time, and have continued to see their lead eaten away in the 13 months since.
That means they mortally fear any powerful source of information and persuasion on the Yes side, and will clutch at any straw – no matter how transparently deranged – to try to smear and discredit it.
We, meanwhile, will continue to stick to the facts.
Classic cases of confirmation bias, fascinating to behold link to en.wikipedia.org
Bravo!
Brilliant article. I cant help feeling that it has been overdue. That wee clique of unionist eejits are a very, very tedious bunch of *****!
infailingly, well even Shakespeare had to invent words when the English of his day was unsufficient.
Excellent analysis. Backed by the facts. But we will never hear any of this from the BBC, the Corporate Media or the celebrity attention seekers.
Another Wee Blue Book is needed soon, updating what has happened since the referendum. (EVEL, closure of Steel plants, pension changes, Tax Credits, death of those with disailities sanctioned by DWP etc).
It’s not a dead parrot.
It’s just sleeping.
Another excellent article Stu, and all we can do is make sure the message gets out there to the undecideds and the disbelievers.
[…] The wishful believers […]
Thank goodness for this Stu!
I’ve been in a wee debate with a patronising Tory relative from the South, although a Scot, believes that we couldn’t “manage” on our own.
I’ve been thinking of giving up on the debate, because I was floundering a bit with my arguments, and “wham” there it all is from you today.
Were you reading my mind?
All the toryboys in the Commons are still peddling the myth that England bestows its largesse on us.
Yesterday, Osborne claimed Scotland’s “black hole” is now £30 billion.
Don’t know what John Swinney is doing for it to rocket from £7B to £10B to £30B in a few months. 🙂
Sometimes I think it would be good to have an approve/agree button on the page, the agree counter would put a whole tribe of whirling dervishes to shame.
“infailingly, well even Shakespeare had to invent words when the English of his day was unsufficient.”
I THINK YOU’LL FIND THAT LINE ALWAYS SAID “UNFAILINGLY”, AND WAS IN NO WAY THE RESULT OF ME STARTING TO WRITE “INVARIABLY” AND THEN CHANGING MY MIND.
“Sometimes I think it would be good to have an approve/agree button on the page, the agree counter would put a whole tribe of whirling dervishes to shame.”
Well, that’s what the Twitter and Facebook and Reddit buttons are for…
another Scottish born rogue blinded by English gold hence his disdain for his ain folk and the country of his birth.
“another Scottish born rogue blinded by English gold hence his disdain for his ain folk and the country of his birth.”
Actually the angry businessman was born in England. I didn’t mention it in the piece because it’s not relevant and it’d just give people an excuse to scream “ANTI-ENGLISHNESS!” again and try to distract attention from the point.
Excellent stuff, Rev. Of course, the attention-seeking businessman will puff and blow a load of hot air and dismiss anything that threatens his pretty wee Excel graph, so the war of words will continue. Quite why he’s expending so much energy attacking a book published for the referendum which took place over a year ago and they won is a mystery; I guess some people just can’t be nice winners.
A key point which I think needs to be made is that the businessman bases his “analysis” exclusively on GERS figures – as, to be fair, almost all commentary on the Scottish economy is. But this is a fallacy. GERS was originally conceived as a propaganda tool, as economists and GERS experts Jim and Margaret Cuthbert point out here: link to cuthbert1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk, link to google.co.uk
‘The motivation for producing the initial GERS was political. GERS had been commissioned by the Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian Lang: and this is what he said about it, in a leaked memorandum to John Major:
“I judge that it is just what is needed at present in our campaign to maintain the initiative and undermine the other parties. This initiative could score against all of them.”’
The original GERS left a LOT to be desired, and was essentially a fudge with many serious flaws, as the Cuthberts go on to point out. But in 2007 it was seriously overhauled and many failings addressed. It’s still not great, but substantially better than the one-sided propaganda tool created by the Tories.
Anyway – here’s the key point; GERS is only good for making retrospective performance observations on the devolution settlement. Since 40% of all spending is on reserved matters and attributed to Scotland mostly pro-rata (not always good as there are substantial differences in e.g. life expectancy between Scottish and UK population), GERS tells us NOTHING about what FFA or an independent Scotland’s finances would look like. GERS also only shows income and expenditure; it doesn’t say anything about policy, or the performance of the wider economy.
If I can put this in a simple analogy, using GERS to make “predictions” about Scotland as an independent country is a bit like making your career choices based ONLY on what you spend on shopping in Tesco. Ignore all the other costs like mortgage, energy, transportation, pension and so on; and any skills or qualifications you posses which may advantage your career prospects.
Some of us think that that is a pretty stupid thing to do – yet it’s essentially what the businessman and his angry unionist chums are trying to shove e down our throats.
seems persuasive, but I’ve been reading some of the comments on MSM articles about Wings’ fine by Electoral Commission and I now realise I’m just a tin hat wearing conspiracy nut/cult devotee and so by believing this article, I’m just proving how lost I am. Oh well, back to the Daily Mail, Herald, and Record for me.
So basically you’re saying all Kev needs is a hug?
Well dissected and sourced as usual.
I suspect those angry unionists aren’t so much fighting last year’s referendum so much as defending the result. Supposedly unequivocal statements and promises, guarantees no less in some circles, made by Both BT and HMG collapse almost daily as time and events move on.
They need something to hang their hat on I suppose, but are finding the pegs available to do so are increasingly shoogly.
That other shoe is beginning to drop and there will come a time when BT and HMG will have a LOT of explaining to do to the electorate.
The question then is what motivates Scots to despise their own nation! I will never understand when a fellow countryman, tells me our nation is a basket case! I don’t want to be part of their world of self delusion and inverted hatred. Oh such a sight to see a Scotsman on the make!
Brilliant …. again!!
Informative article.
Thanks for this detailed post.
The businessman in question was chatting to me on twitter and was polite enough, unlike some of the really demented unionists; or at least the businessman doesn’t throw out Nazi/Fascist analogies constantly, which makes him appear more sane.
Anyway, what I found a bizarre exchange was when he was basically telling me that the UK gov and Better together made zero concrete promises for Scotland to stay in the Union, while Yes and Scottish Gov did. I accept this so far (e.g. Scottish Gov insisted there would be a currency union and we could say they ‘promised’ we’d use the pound after independence), but he went on to say that the ‘Yes’ side could be assessed on those promises (despite them remaining contingent on independence i.e. which, em, hasn’t happened!), but ‘No’ could in no way be judged or assessed. For me that is a classic case of someone emotionally trying to argue against Scottish independence, rather than someone who is looking at this objectively. I’d like to read his heart pourings about why he’s so emotionally against independence. Can someone interview him again?
Actually, there’s a far better analogy:
“You can’t be a doctor or a lawyer because your performance as a checkout assistant suggests that you don’t earn enough”.
If a thing could be made clearer I don’t see any other way than this
Round of applause Stu, although the mission you’ve been on has certainly taken a sharp upturn amongst the “Angry Unionists”
Our rulers are becoming more than agitated in their desire to prevent a referendum that hasn’t even been proposed
This excitement you’re causing amongst our betters is all the more entertaining as you’re doing it all from your BATH
Removing the grime from British Politics?
Did Oor Anabel make any meaningful contribution in the Lords debate anent screwing the deserving poor?
Stu says
“In looking to the future the angry Unionists also deliberately ignore the fact that the whole point of independence is to do things differently. Their figures are unfailingly based on an independent Scotland pursuing the same failed policies and spending plans pursued under the stewardship of the UK – which have left Scotland lumbered with a large share of the UK’s vast (and still growing) £1.5 trillion debt and the crippling interest payments on it, and a shattered manufacturing economy.”
That is the really important bit. That is why we shouldn’t waste our time getting bogged down on bogus economic arguments on figures produced by our enemies out of a Scottish economy trapped in a bust UK state
Excellent as always. Many thanks.
I have to say, whilst it can be somewhat wearisome at times, overall it’s generally very amusing to watch the poor unionists peeking out from their bunker and repeatedly screaming, “It’s over! Move on!”
I, for one, have moved on. Unlike them, I am no longer discussing last year’s referendum. I am focusing on the next.
Great article Stu, you really delivered the goods with that one.
As regards Andrew Neil and his ilk (proud scots BUT) is there any other nation in this world that has so many of it’s so-called own people, prepared to down and miscall the hopes and expectations of their home country and its citzens.
I have a uncle and auntie down in Kent still call themselves Scots, but any sign of independence their spouting the daily mail in all directions as though it is the gospel. They have spent 50 years down in Kent and appear up for a week every 2 – 4 years and they think they know Scotland, they know shite.
So why should we tolerate this lies and decit fae bloody earse’s like Andrew Neil, mare power to your elbow Stu keep showing them up for the lying bastards that they are.
Brilliant Stu. To my mind this is the best, and probably most influential piece, you have ever written (since I started visiting the site).
Why not send a copy of this to Andrew Neil, Andrew Marr, all newspapers, STV, BBC etc etc. See if any of them have the guts / decency to publish this, debate, refute or whatever.
Apologies now for going O/T
Thanks for the many interesting and informative links posted previously Nana. How much of that will be reported by the MSM such as the data outlined in the Independent?
‘Malnutrition and other ‘Victorian’ diseases including scurvy, scarlet fever, cholera and whooping cough have increased since 2010 (a rise of 50% in 4 years): Soaring in England ‘due to food poverty and cuts. Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than Rwanda or Iraq, according to a report by the London Assembly. ………. While the rate of infection among UK-born Londoners has risen, it has fallen among those born abroad.’
It also looks as though Zionist Adam Tomkins, Jim Murphy Vice President of the UK branch of the CIA backed Henry Jackson Society and JKR’s (et al) noses will be put out of joint with hundreds of academics, boycotting Israels aggressive policies against Palestinians, totally disagreeing with the stance they are taking on the horrendous Israeli / Palestinian situation.
Rodney Shakespeare Professor of Economics goes as far as to say that JKR is a Zionist who is ‘’hand in glove with Saudi Arabia and between them they are now promoting Daesh and Isil leading to the floods of refugees coming into Europe with huge political consequences’’.
So interesting. Just posting it again Nana.
link to youtube.com
This country (Better Together UK) is in total meltdown between one thing and another.
Osborne’s reduction of Corporation Tax, from 20% to 18% by 2020, now means it’s one of the lowest in the World (already lowest rate in the G20) but not low enough for him / his family members it would seem!
Any wonder we’re all pulling our hair out in sheer anger and bl**dy frustration at these blatantly arrogant, narcissistic Politicians who are basically sticking two fingers up at everyone and it seems that there’s little we can do about it …… for now.
Chunky Mark’s latest video: OMG!!! George Osborne Family Business pays £0 Corp Tax on £200Million #Austerity
link to youtube.com
PS Happy (belated) birthday Stu. I hope you have a fabulous year. The singing voice isn’t great on this but it’s the thought that counts. Also hope I’ve got your age right!
link to youtube.com
Superb article Stuart,
Intelligently written as it rises with such clarity against the background heat of all this snarling chatter.
Clearly, the WBB is still seen as a threat to a failing Unionist cause. You (and indeed we) don’t need to defend your work as it withstands all tests thrown at it.
Splendid work.
One of your best Rev.
You have an unequalled gift of putting the most complex of subjects into a much simpler abstract.
This is not just a counterpoint to the too poor argument, it demolishes it completely and puts it beyond debate,
I trust John Swinney and the SNP to recreate a different society in Scotland by making different choices on our journey into the future.
I wish I had half your skill .Respect to one of the icons of the independance movement.
Just you be aware Rev that you are becoming a figure of note, and as such, will be under ever closer and closer scrutiny. In my opinion you are perhaps the greatest threat faced by the Establishment in the matter of the Union.
I admire the SNP and many others,but you are definitely without peer in our battle to be free of England.
articles like this are the reason I used to buy “quality” newspapers.
Since they started ( and are still competing in) their race to the bottom Wings is one of the very few sources that can do this.
I used to think the Sunday Sport had won the race but it seems every once reputable paper is trying to outdo them albeit sans tits. Unless you count Neil.
Well said,and angry unionist sounds like a twitter parody.
Oh my God I don’t know how that happened!
Wrong youtube (birthday) video Stu. Should have been this one.
link to youtube.com
Fab article, I will have to memorise and quote to any unionists I happen to meet. Well I hope it’s ok to print it and highlight some of it.
Re; BigJock@11.18am
Well, in answer to your question, it has been a long, persistant and orchestrated attempt by the establishment and politicians, to portray Scotland as a complete and utter basket case. And they have succeeded.
I picked up a book in a charity shop recently, ‘The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence’. By Carol Craig, 2003,by ‘Big Thinking’ books.
Just dipping into it, and my god I am actually lost for words. Page 13, tells us that, Scotland suffers from, ‘schizophrenia’ and ‘neurosis’. A guy called Tom Nairn, ‘political theorist’ seems to have made a few quid with several books, and an essay titled, ‘ The Three Dreams of Scottish Nationalism’. (one quote, the ‘chronic laceration of the Scots mind’ ).
He wrote, ‘The Red Paper on Scotland’, ‘The Break-up of Britain’, and, ‘After Britain’.
The Jekyll and Hyde thing seems to feature somewhat. Looks like the whole book is about Scotland being quite simply, mad, irrational and incapable of anything, particularly politics. Those pesky nats again, nationalism in particular features in T Nairns bunkum.
Before my blood pressure gets very high, I cannot bare to look at the book much longer. Does anyone want it? 300 pages of telling us that we are all illogical, emotional basket cases.
I guess the serious side being that is what they have been telling Scotland for centuries, it will take a bit more work to ditch that kind of stuff, but we are getting there and that is what the ukok establishment are terrified of.
Great article and well timed.
The increasingly public foaming at the mouth by certain unionists can only be linked to the fact that they are terrified and independence is inevitable.
This could ‘all’ have be done so differently. in a mature civilised way the UK could have debated constitutional change respectfully and for the benefit of all.
But unionist parties killed that with project fear. Problem is they cannot replay almost any of their lines again.
Only currency issue still worries me (no me but others fears about it)
Chins up -big thanks to Wings
A great article and another reason why Wings performs an invaluable service by supplying the kind of factual information you can’t get on the BBC / MSM.
We need more analysis of the effect of lower oil prices on the Scottish economy in order to respond to the “we dodged a bullet” brigade.
The SNP seems reluctant to get into this argument but its spokespersons on TV and Radio need to be far better equipped to state the positive case for Scotland’s economy.
I have given up arguing about the economy with unionists. My take on it is that the UK economy is so complex and so convoluted that you can point the economist of your choice at the figures and they will come up with whatever answer that you ask for.
But if anyone tries to tell me that Scotland one of the most resource rich countries in the world with a highly educated population will turn into the next Somalia within months of independence well they can f**k off.
@RogueCoder
Thanks for the link to the Cuthberts’ piece, it’s very informative and more detailed than the video @PoliticsScot tweeted the other day in response to the Wings/Andrew Neil kerfuffle.
I’d recommend everyone have a look at it and so I repost it here, with my gratitude.
link to cuthbert1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk, link to google.co.uk
@Arty Hetty,
We have had 300 years of this, let alone 300 pages.
Perhaps you have a coal fire that needs paper to light?
Rev – Main Post
I have made the point, a number of times, that almost everyone in politics seems to feel that “truth” of a particular situation or position, needs to spun, exaggerated, distorted, misrepresented and ultimately downright lied about – in order to make a point, or to persuade someone of a particular point of view.
Your spat with Andrew Neil, based upon what I have seen and read, appears to be a “slam dunk” for you. Mr Neil started his interview, as is so often the case these days, with an attempt to put his interviewee on the back foot with a particular premise and then, in quite an assertive manner, keep them there. Paxman, often used a similar approach. In this case though, the premise, as far as I can see, was wrong.
Based upon the above, and many of my previous comments on similar subjects, you will note that I have the ability to be objective. I have taken issue here a number of times though with individuals that believe, and claim, that the pro-indy parties, including the SNP, do not stoop to such levels and do not engage in such tactics.
To put a number of threads together, at the back end of last week, there was much discussion about EVEL – what it was about, and what its impact might be. I was pointed to the SNP web site and the pages on the SNP policy with respect to EVEL. In all fairness, a more distorted picture of the “truth” would be hard to write. There are statements there that are designed only to mislead and misrepresent, and others which are pure untruths. Anyone on Wings that was involved in the threads last week would now know that – but anyone else might read the information and, based upon their allegiance to the SNP, believe everything that is written – and be very p****d off as a result.
In that particular case, it’s not the MSM, the BBC or a BBC hack that is doing the bald-faced deception – it is the party of government in Scotland. All of this makes no particular point other than to prove what we already knew. Everyone involved in politics lies (apart from me).
@sensibledave,
You have your objective view,I have mine. They are not the same.
take that ya bams !!!
Great work Rev 🙂
of course they are going to try and discredit you its what they do,but unfortunately for them they can jump up and down and scream as loud as they want,we will still tell them to get lost,since we have learned not only to check sources and investigate on our own to come to our own conclusions but to question everything they say,and who`s fault would that be for telling us porky pies and getting caught,if they had been honorable to start with then they would never have had to face the wrath of the wingers.
They can call us liars all they want the boat has already left and the passengers are looking back at the quayside and giving them the bird and saying aye right pull the other one its got bells on it.
Keep up the great work Rev we have the onions on the run 🙂
@TMITJ
Pretty much. 🙂
At the very least, the angry unionist cant say its not all been laid out for them right here today. They will though.
Just shows also how giant UKOK debt can be used to attack Scottish democracy, FUD wise. Much like how they used their nuke weapons like Trident to terrify, vote NO or lose 19,000 Faslane WMD jobs, they said.
Bob Mack
Thanks, I will need some fuel for the allotment fire soon, unless anyone wishes to read this twaddle before then of course. It was expensive originally 14.99 quid. Obviously posed as an academic book. Chilling indeed to think sociologist and pyschologist students were likely recommended this. Bloody hell.
The BBC is nothing more than a hostile foreign media within our country. In no way can it claim to have Scotland`s interests at heart but then you may say the clue is in the name.
Only a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation can rebalance this democratic deficit but of course Westminster says no. I wonder why?
The BBC continuously jumps on smears and lies used by the rabid unionist press in Scotland to give stories gravitas which clearly exposes the agenda they are pushing and I wish our elected politicians would call them out on this. It`s not for a lack of opportunity that`s for sure!
Also their choice of omitting damaging stories to unionist parties and their associates is very telling. They leave open goals all the time but they are not being taken advantage of enough for my liking and I`m sure many others who watch on in frustration.
Another Zinger.
Your maturing with age.
I always thought Andrew Neil was Scottish with his accent, either way he is a Scotland hating bawbag
wait just seen he was born in Paisley brought up in the Glenburn area
This bit by Rev Stu is particularly on the money:
‘that figure still understates the reality significantly, because of course Scotland would have enjoyed considerable additional benefits from that £68bn surplus, the larger part of which accrued early in the period.’
The Cuthberts, in fact, have calculated where we would likely be had we had independence or FFA in the late 70s (one or other highly likely had we not been lied to over the oil by the Labour Government), assuming same public expenditure but control over our oil revenues (and including the effects of the 2008 banking crisis) and it is about £150 billion in credit, not a similar sized debt as the Unionists claim we owe rUK.
reidfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Debt.pdf
An important point to realise is that had we not been sending gigantic oil revenue receipts to Thatcher in the early 80s for it to be pished down the urinals of wine bars in the City of London, we would have been in surplus ever after (again given historic public expenditure and assuming conservative figures about returns on the oil surplus) even when the oil price dropped.
The SNP leadership should indeed, as Sinky says, make more of this sort of thing. They do talk of FFA requiring appropriate fiscal arrangements when addressing the black hole in the finances argument. They should fill that out by insisting that when assessing net liability (and whether we should be paying £3-4 billion a year in debt interest to London or whether they should be paying us compensation for mis-selling the oil to us) those historic figures are taken into account. If the unionist response is dry your eyes, all in the past so forget it, the response should be same holds for our supposed obligation to UK debt. That changes the ‘black hole’ in the public finances drastically, whatever the oil price.
@sensibledave
And there’s your problem. not living in Scotland you miss so much of the detail. Yes the SNP`s ultimate goal is independence and they know that the only route is by providing good honest governance. Yes they screw up now and again (nobody is perfect)but the most important thing is that they try. Why on earth do you think that they do so well in elections and in the polls.
You should try living here rather than getting your views from the red white and blue tinted media. On second thoughts dont!
So if I can sum up sensibledave’s position, it seems to be:
“Okay, you have a point here – BUT SNP BAAAAD!!!”
We are grateful for such insightful and helpful analysis on why we are “Better Together”.
Bob Mack @12.09
Ah but, my objective view is objective – that’s the difference Bob. I have no loyalty to a particular party. Yes, invariably I end up voting Tory as being the best of a bad lot. Only last week, I wrote here on Wings that I had no faith in the fairness of some the proposed Welfare cuts – and I am therefore happy that the Government had a problem in the Lords.
Can you give me an example of bad SNP policy or lies Bob?
One of the picture captions has a semi-colon where there should be an apostrophe. Just saying.
Dippy Dave: you will note that I have the ability to be objective
Hilarious remark.
But he’s not here to make us laugh. He’s here to divert discussion from Neil’s preposterous certainty, and the unionists who would have Neil as their poster boy.
This is a fantastic post. Lack of this information, caused by the UK Establishment and media lying to Scotland, is the number one reason we lost the referendum.
Its the most important post ever. Basically if everybody in Scotland reads it, we’ll win next time. It’s as simple as that.
o/t, in fact way off topic, I see the daily record is actually allowing some political comments from it’s on line readers today and it’s all down to you, so first of all, well done you, as for the article covered that’s different cause I somehow get the feeling that you won’t be on their Christmas card list!
First in with a comment was our old pal Grahamski, (actually it’s been so long , I thought he must be dead),
Now I may be wrong here but It seems to me that he has lifted most of his comments from a well known daily paper, word for word.
See if you can read it without laughing!
59 minutes ago
GrahamskiFalkirk
The Electoral Commission has fined the tartan-truther hateblog, Wings, for what seems to be a fairly minor infringement in electoral law. So what? His mistakes in accounting pale into insignificance compared with his mistakes in projecting a separate Scotland’s finances. For the truth of the matter is that if Scotland had voted YES last year as advocated by this hateblog then John Swinney would now be facing the problem of filling a black hole of £8bn in a separate Scotland’s finances. Along with trying to raise funds for a country without its own currency he would be considering which taxes to raise, what services to cut, what schools or hospitals to close and by how much he would have to cut pensions. That is the reality of the situation; Scotland dodged a bullet last year and those like Wings who urged us to step in front of it made far bigger mistakes than failing to account for some spending during the campaign.
Sensible Dave,
I think you are referring to, or making the comparison to, that political persuasion is similar to a profession of faith? Yes there are similarities between politics and religion, and yes political parties can be seen as a broad church.
But looking for truth is difficult in politics, as by definition how one interprets the events or policies of the day are as much a result of the observers nature or nurture, their life experiences if you will.
For decades the westminster establishment has been arranged against the right for Scots to the masters of their own destiny. the use of propaganda, although omnipresent in the Scottish political arena, has been stepped up to a shrill scream. Ridiculous untruths have been propagated, for evidence look at the tomorrow’s world sketch posted here from the 70’s this at the same time as a top secret report was being shredded in whitehall that said the exact opposite. So yes you are correct in your assumption that when the truth will out, or when you find out that you have been lied to and played for a fool, tempers will rise!
Word of warning on EVEL you are incorrect to say this only a SNP driven issue, the labour party, liberals and some tories have also questioned the wisdom of this move.
Sensible it is my democratic right to seek the best political outcome for my country, a country that westminster commissioned experts (sic) to say no longer exists, But England continues to exist. I will pursue this lawful democratic course, all the while acknowledging the right of unionist supporters to wish for the retention of the status quo.
David why don’t you concentrate in building your new jerusalem in England, our do you, as I do just love the Scots, every hairy arsed one of them!
Something that struck me in relation to the obvious nervousness exhibited by Unionists is what the London/Project Fear reaction may be.
I have some thoughts about that. I’ll try (probably badly) to articulate them.
My first thought revolves around the recent ballyhoo about the Lords getting in the way of the Tories plans for Tax credits. I think that this whole carry on has been very carefully stage managed. Stick with me on this – One of the core tenets of the Conservative Party is the preservation of the British Social Structure, including the place of the House of Lords within this structure.
What’s not to like, from a Tory view point, with the Lords exerting it’s muscle on the tax credits dispute?
I strongly suspect that any review into Parliament’s workings could be turned into an A+ report card marking for the House of Lords, with the conclusion that it should be preserved and strengthened, i.e. UK Democracy weakened.
My second thought is, looking at the obvious realignment in UK foreign policy with the kowtowing to China and the nauseating control exerted, via the Met Police, on any dissent by protesters of the Chinese president’s visit; Is the UK going to take a lead from China and start to use more repressive measures against it’s own self interests?
Even the USA may have a case in feeling that the UK is looking East rather to lustfully;
link to blogs.reuters.com
So what’s the connection with Andrew Neil and other angry Unionists?
Well, if you consider that the Unionists won the 1st round in Scotland’s debate for Independence by basically just lying to the Scottish electorate, and with the self-same Scottish electorate slowly waking up to the fact that they (the people of Scotland) have been well and truly had, then round 2 is not the inevitable win that Unionists assume it to be.
A straight forward Project Fear rerun probably has little chance of success second time around, so what to do if you’re a wanna be friend of China that wishes to keep the UK and it’s institutions intact?
You take a leaf out of the book of your newest best friend and do as they do.
Scotland should be very worried indeed.
Everyone involved in politics lies (apart from me).
Sensible you were asked over and over last week, why EVEL and why was EVEL NOT offered/mentioned/proposed/ in the UKOK Project Fear vote NO or else campaign, last year? Yet you dodged it all, shock.
So sensible, objectively you should add, everyone in politics lies but only angry unionists, you, duck away from any questions that might not suit the huge and ongoing fraud on Scotland.
It’s very different for Wos, like today, because WoS has to be straightforward and open, WoS has to remain what it is, a political blog in Bath, facing a giant wall of the most god awful red and blue tory Britnat propaganda, like what you waffle away about.
You’re just another FUDster sensibledave. Hows that working out for you UKOK types, electorally n shit? Triumphant in England, bombs in your Scotland region.
Oh and red toryboy world even blame Scottish voters for blue Tory UK.gov too, just for luck.
And imagine how many more billions we could have saved if we hadn’t been contributing to a share of their trident, illegal foreign wars and London infrastructure.
You excell at this stuff Stu, what more can I say, I have said it many times.
Yes, they are bad winners, fear is still in their hearts, losing their cash cow, makes them irrational. Like dogs with rabies, they do not know what to do. So the result, everything Scottish is bad.
The fear will rise, and the rabid dogs will start foaming at the mouth, a sure sign their end is near.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the UK average spend figure commonly used, actually excludes London spending. This of course depresses the average figure
One thought on the Ashcroft point that the low oil price has benefits in the knock on effect of lower fuel costs for businesses and consumers which offsets the decrease in the oil and gas receipts. Don’t forget that the vast bulk of the cost of fuel is tax and Vat. The win-win situation in an Indy Scot would be a higher oil price with the ability to vary the tax take on the finished fuel down to ameliorate the higher price thus decreasing the impact on home country users.(Note to other wingers, do not bleat to me about “climate change” in reply)
I did have a quick look at Norway where fuel costs seem to be on a par/slightly higher than here, but the income over there is higher so relatively spaeking fuel is more affordable.
except the bbc isn’t meant to be pro union, it is meant to be impartial
that is its founding principle because by law everyone is oblidged to pay for it
When one goes off-topic, like, say ‘sensibledave’ does today, one really ought to signal this to other readers by prefacing one’s comment with ‘O/T’ or ‘on a different subject…’, or ‘oh look a squirrel’.
(The last is my personal favourite.)
Today’s post is about the fundamental decades-long strength of the Scottish economy. This strength is admitted by UK government’s own people, and proved by independent analysts.
There is no getting round the fact that Scotland’s economy is fundamentally strong, and has always been a positive contributor to the UK. Unionists may tie themselves up in knots, but they cannot deny that having Scotland in the UK is financially GOOD for the UK. And therefore, if Scotland chooses to leave the UK, then that will be financially BAD for the UK.
There it is, unionists and No-voters: the truth hurts, but the truth shall set you free.
Dusting down my old, faded BBC producer hat, chewed (by me) at the edges – what’s missing from television political programmes is …
An uninterrupted hour fronted by an informed, erudite, benign questioner with one or two quests around a desk for a single issue show, he or she NOT there to interrogate, but to encourage the guests to open out about their themselves, their vision, and develop their ideas.
That way allows viewers to gain a deeper understanding of issues, or see the flaws, gauge the character of the guest(s) beyond the shallow crap dished out by self-appointed ‘hard talk’ head bangers.
Can you imagine the old guard gruff interviewers when they get home, unable to drop the hard man act? “I hope you are not cooking what you cooked last time, wife! It was inedible. Is that not so? Answer the question. I will put it to you again.”
Television news has turned itself into drama.
There. Must. Be. Conflict. For. Viewer Numbers. And. Next Day. Press. Headlines.
Where is Foghorn Galloway when you need him?
och Dave away and take your pretendy liberal ass someplace else.
Your country is a cesspit of lies even you admit its not great by saying you voted Tory as they were the best of a bad bunch.
Well we vote SNP because they are the only party who stand above the cesspit,they are not perfect far from it but compared to the rest the are miles in front.
Now instead of coming on here and bad mouthing the only half descent political party in the UK why dont you get up of your ass and do something about the bad lot that run you ,or are you just like all other Englishmen full of hot air and beaten into submission by the aristocracy hmmm ?
I hate that flamin’ dog. And Brian Griffin too.
Les Wilson
yes they are bad winners, it the bad karma of knowing you lied and cheated to win, thats why they are so unhappy, and why YES continues to go upwards.
On that september night we saw the country that the unionists campaigned for! Fascist thugs in George Square, or drunkenly parading round the city terrorising young ladies, tells you all you need to know about bitter together and the unionists wet dream!
Andrew McLean 12.37
You wrote: “Word of warning on EVEL you are incorrect to say this only a SNP driven issue, the labour party, liberals and some tories have also questioned the wisdom of this move.
Andrew, my previous comments had absolutely nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL. It was about parties lying – and I used the SNP web pages as an example of, in this case, the SNP, i.e. the Government of Scotland, unequivocally lying through its teeth, live to the world via the internet. My point was that there is nothing special or unusual about that (sadly) and that everyone in politics feels compelled to do it. Whoever is caught lying usually uses examples of their opposition lying to justify their own lies – which is sad in my view.
You wrote “Sensible it is my democratic right to seek the best political outcome for my country, a country that westminster commissioned experts (sic) to say no longer exists, But England continues to exist. I will pursue this lawful democratic course, all the while acknowledging the right of unionist supporters to wish for the retention of the status quo”
It is indeed you democratic right to do whatever you want to do. Its a shame that you on your side, and your opposition (which does not include me) appear to support mendacity as a means though. I have accepted that is just the way it is – but I will continue to call out hypocrisy when I see it.
I’ll make it really easy for anyone concerned about crushing falls in oil receipts.
In an independent Scotland, 90% of $45/barrel ($40.50) is worth over three times more than 9% of $140/barrel ($12.60) as part of the UK.
So if Scotland was subsidizing rUK when it was $20/barrel, just imagine how much wealth is sucked up by London when it’s currently at $47 for Brent crude.
David 12:51 pm
You wrote “When one goes off-topic, like, say ‘sensibledave’ does today, one really ought to signal this to other readers by prefacing one’s comment with ‘O/T’ or ‘on a different subject…’, or ‘oh look a squirrel”
Indeed David, and if I was going off topic, I would do that.
However, I was responding specifically to the subject matter i.e. people lie, politicians lie, governments lie. The Tories lie and the SNP Lie to try and achieve their political aims – which is sad.
Having lived and worked in this great country of Scotland and in particular Glasgow for most of my life ,I am entitled to make several judgements.
I have known and voted Labour most of my life both prior to and after devolution. I have known when Conservative was an acceptable vote to my fellow Scots.
I have lived and worked under all types of political administrations.
The SNP may well not be perfect,but they are most definitely the best there has ever been in Scotland .I wonder why ?
The answer is fairly simple.Their focus is not the Greater National Need, nor politically driven by the requirements of the rest of the UK. Their focus is Scotland,and Scotland only.
People living in England perhaps do not know as much about
this as me and others. It is our experience that tells us the difference. You have not that same experience if you live in England.
That’s an absolute cracker REV.
Remember when Mr ASDA was summoned to a meeting with the PM and came out of that meeting saying he was going to put his prices up in Scotland? And the red Tory leader Lamont was pictured outside an ASDA store with a daft like grin across her usually greetin’ puss? I wonder if we should be pressing ASDA for their current position on independence.
Why try to chase individuals who don’t agree with us off of this site? I for one don’t want to be reading one post after another whereby everyone is in agreement. It smacks of narrow minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.
We are also supposed to be encouraging prior no voters or undecided people to come over to our side. If I was in one of these categories I wouldn’t dare venture on here and to be honest this kind of attitude would put me off voting yes at all in future.
DerekM 12:54 pm
You wrote “och Dave away and take your pretendy liberal ass someplace else.”
… actually quite funny Derek! On a point of accuracy tough, my liberal ass is not “pretendy”.
Then you wrote “Your country is a cesspit of lies”, and “we vote SNP because they are the only party who stand above the cesspit” and “or are you just like all other Englishmen full of hot air and beaten into submission by the aristocracy hmmm ?”
Not quite so funny Derek – just a shallow, insulting, stereotyping of 53 million people – not cool Derek.
Rev, top stuff. You’re a legend, our very own living legend. God only knows where we’re be without —- I won’t even say it.
Jim Mitchell
Grahamski is a Very Angry Unionist. He’s probably the most Angry Unionist on the planet.
Grahamski’s anger has been building up since 2007 he probably reached boiling point in 2015 and I expect he is about to explode.
It’s must be difficult for these ‘Slabber NObbers’ to come to terms with the fact that they have been well and truly shafted.
I would love to know who Grahamski is!
I’m convinced all these ‘UKOK Better Together Angry Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ are politicians or perhaps BBC ‘journalists’ or whatever folk like Andrew Neil are called.
The question of why so many Angry Unionists hate hate hate Scotland is very interesting.
Petra @ 1.18 pm
Agree with you 100%.
Brilliant Stu, you’re timing is exquisite.
Given WoS’s high profile in the msm right now, this in fact was the perfect moment to unleash this article on the WBB.
I can’t help but admire your utter contempt for polite discourse with the frothing loons and how you draw them in, as they react to a sweary word hear and a flippant dismissal there.
By those means you achieve our ends. Mair publicity.
I would be very interested in what the stats are for this article today?
O/T
Stop ‘biting’ people, Heed? you’re a sucker for his shtick, and as much as I adore your shtick, there’s nae point in your indulgence of him. It ruins the thread’s subject continuity, which is deliberate.
Petra
What would you suggest be done? Should everyone agree with sensible dave? Bow down to our Imperial Masters?
What would be the point of trying to convince ‘sensible dave’ of anything when he doesn’t have a vote in Scotland?
Personally I’ve had enough of these “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves” who can’t even articulate their aims & objectives for posting on Scottish political forums.
However, I was responding specifically to the subject matter i.e. people lie, politicians lie, governments lie. The Tories lie and the SNP Lie to try and achieve their political aims – which is sad.
So where is this WoS blog alone lying sensible?
Anyhoo, another UKOK double whammy is the fact that not only has Scotland subsidised the UK, its been controlled by the most fervent UKOK unionists.
Has it been a successful reign of UKOK unionism in Scotland sensible, or is it really all over for SLabour’s right to shit all over us?
Electorally it certainly looks like its all over for SLab now. Currently we have Kezia Dugdale and BBC Scotland desperately trying to fool Scotland into believing that SLabour is independent from Labour, again.
Why would BBC/SLab be doing that sensibledave?
or
Economically, why are house prices and pay so low in many parts of Scotland and so high in the south east of England and so on.
Or why is England’s transport infrastructure so far in advance of Scotland and where does the money come from to pay for it all?
Do you see why you’re coming across as just another angry unionist fraud sensibledave?
No Jimmy Andra can not come out to play at the moment … he has been a very naughty boy and been sent to bed! 😀
link to youtube.com
What about the illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud (in London and the Midlands). Thatcher’s illegal and secret taking the Oil revenues and cancelling a pipe line wasting the equivalent of £Billions of Gas.
The Unionists believe what they want to believe despite the concrete evidence. Westminster manipulation, secrecy and lies. Scotland would have been Independent years ago,if the truth had been known.
The problem is that the past years, when Scotland contributed more, thanks to oil tax revenues, to the Exchequer than what is spent here, is a ‘sunk cost’, or ‘sunk revenue’. An iScotland would not be easily able to claim past over-contribution as part of its fiscal settlement.
Oil certainly benefitted the Aberdeen economy, if not Scotland as a whole, and will continue to do so. But the state of the overall economy is not quite the same as the state of an iScotland’s government accounts; and I don’t really think that there is much scope to re-organise government expenditure, much less cut it. (The exception would be defence). There is, of course, a huge appetite for spending more money, in every area imaginable.
And don’t even think about repudiating rUK debt – that would guarantee that no-one, but no-one, would lend us money ever again.
@Petra.
I sort of agree with you ,but I also read the entranched position of the anti independence contributors,and realise that with some, there is no amount of evidence on Gods earth that would allow them to open their eyes to the truth.
Perhaps it would be better not to engage with them?
When I was a young guy ,I had a hell of a fight with a guy who just moved into our street.
We were both covered in blood ,muck and dirt after rolling about battering each other for half an hour. The things we called each other before,during and after the fight were mindnumbing.
He was best man at my wedding, and I love him to this day.
It may be wee, it may be blue, but by God that book kicks like a shire horse.
Thanks for this, Rev. This site is my go-to for unpicking the messy tapestry of lies the corporate media and their apologists like to wave. The usual response I get from unionists when we cross keyboards is “but GERS” – they use it as a talisman against the ugly truth like a St Christopher worn to protect them from a 50-foot wall of water about to thunder down on their noggins. The truth is unstoppable.
Will be sharing this with my unionist friends. A few of them have been posting links to Pet Shop Boy’s blog lately, somehow convinced that a few nitpicks about one point actually completely undermine the entire WBB.
Fantastic piece of work, Rev. Makes me sad though, when I think where Scotland should be, for her young and old.
Brad Millar says:
28 October, 2015 at 12:23 pm
I always thought Andrew Neil was Scottish with his accent, either way he is a Scotland hating bawbag
wait just seen he was born in Paisley brought up in the Glenburn area
I think he went to Paisley Grammar. I went to a secondary school, who were at war with the Grammar, and would pelt the poor Grammarians, with missiles, as our bus passed them, stood at the bus stop.
That lark earned us a detour into Mill Street polis station (crazy k division), and a stern talking to from whatever unlucky cop that was about.
We didn’t have phones in them days.
It has come to a pretty pass when a life long Tory can’t tell a few fibs.
No wonder is Wings is hated
😉
Aye Petra, I’m all for the No voters enlightening themselves by actually taking on board the genuine case for independence, people like sdave aren’t here to argue the merits of that position.
You know the subject matter abtl, now read what he wrote, it is completely irrelevant to the thread’s subject and amounts to a snidey SNP bad. I’m done ‘tuning in’ to that frequency.
We have all attempted to argue with him at various points along the way. His position never alters, and his manner is simply patronising and condescending.
We have to be discerning…he deliberately riles to derail the subject…as someone else said, ‘oh look a squirrel’ is his only input.
Grahamski survived the Falkirk purge and the SNP flood. Poor lad must be in some state.
Just when you think it can NOT get any worse for the folks being forced into using food banks that lying, useless, two faced, hypocritical, arrogant, ignorant, divisive, lecherous, scum of the earth, low life of a bastardly money grabbing Iain Drunken Spliff goes and does this!!!
link to archive.is
p.s. my partner has just told me NOT to hold back! 😀
@Petra
I agree with your general sentiment however, there is a huge difference between someone with a genuinely enquiring mind and an out and out Troll like sensationalistdave…
The more people respond to the Troll the more posts I have to skip and it ruins continuity.
Great article that nails it.
Now being spoiled by Troll side show!
Is the Hobbit another Very Angry Unionist who is still fighting the NO Campaign?
FAO of all Angry Unionist/Slabber NObbers:
YOU WON THE INDY REF CAMPAIGN! YOUR CON WORKED.
I do appreciate that some posters on Wings try to air the opposing viewpoint. The trouble with that is, Wings was (I presume) set up to debunk and unravel British media propaganda. It doesn’t help those ‘dissenting voices’ that they’re (perhaps unwitting, perhaps not) water-carriers for the very establishment this site was set up to refute.
It’s no part of an argument to engage in a debate about ‘Problem A’ by banging on about ‘Potential Problem K’. And quoting articles from British media in order to refute an argument against British media makes one look a bit silly.
Absolutely anyone can log in to Wings and say, ‘I’m a lifelong SNP supporter but…’ while going on to castigate the SNP they purportedly support by quoting nonsense articles full of ‘SNP BAD’. Aye, this is a hypothetical – don’t be looking around to find the person(s) I might be alluding to. ;o)
I’m merely saying that self-identifying as a supporter of anything at all doesn’t make you a bona fide supporter of it. This is the internet – for some people it’s a point-scoring game but for me it’s about finding out where the truth lies and which lies are just lies.
Sorry, it’s been a shitty week and my brain’s gone numb…
Go gettum, sir!
Excellent stuff.
Anybody in need of an answer to the old question ‘Why are WM so desperate to hang on to Scotland?’ only needs to read the above article.
no Dave it was not ,you yourself said the best of a bad bunch so tell me what are you going to do about it,or like i said are you just going to talk a lot of hot air and accept your country is run by a bunch of aristocratic greedy lying bastards who dont give a monkeys about you or your people or your country for that matter and sit on your backside and accept your lot.
Well this isnt the English i was taught about,i always though you guys stood up against tyranny but i guess i was wrong.
Well that was a well aimed Glesga kiss!
@Ruby, 1.52pm
Here’s the problem, as I see it; an iScotland would have some huge pressures in its government accounts as it went forward; and if the independence campaign is to secure the substantial majority it needs, then these issues have to be faced up to.
Geoff Aberdein was recently reported as saying that the SNP lost the independence vote because it failed to convince voters of the economic case for independence. I could hardly call him a Unionist troll.
@Hobbit
Jump in the volcano!
Excellent article. Certainly on to point people to.
The following words are an excellent appraisal of what is going on!
“… a particular group of angry Unionists inexplicably still fighting the referendum campaign despite having won it more than a year ago …. the No side believes a second independence referendum is inevitable, and is terrified that they’ll lose it”
Their punching has not stopped. They didn’t hear the bell to say round one is over. OK, because they will be all tired out when the bell for round two does ring! We will come out refreshed and fighting, and the match won’t reach a third round. 🙂
[…] As we observed last night, the BBC’s Andrew Neil has reacted with rather poor grace to his chiding at the hands of respected statisticians Jim and Margaret Cuthbert. Neil embarked on a Twitter blocking spree and tried to rewrite history, claiming that he’d “simply offered” the blunt claim that there had been no cuts to the Scottish budget in the last five years “as one measure” of the money available to Holyrood. […]
The Pavlov’s Dogs of the MSM have leapt upon Rev Stu’s £750 fine by The EC shouting it from the rooftops and on some of the blats generating hundreds of comments.
Are they so stupid as to not realise that this publicity will have brought thousands if not 100s of thousands of new readers to Wings.
How much would it have cost to achieve so much press coversge if it had to paid for by advertising? Stu got the lot for a paltry £750 which must be about the bargain of the century.
Cynics might think that he broke the rules deliberately.
Great article, and very useful for countering in Twitter “discussions”.
The key question for me is
Does he question like this because he believes what he is saying or
Is it BBC policy and instruction to assume the Scottish government is always wrong
Hehe…Gus…I think he’s a very clever guy.
Fundraiser for the fine
See what you get
Lesley-Anne
He can’t be serious!
I have to either get out the kick-boxing kit or do some meditation!
Bloddy ‘Slabber NObbers’ could they not have voted YES!
Food Banks being turned into Job Centres I’ve heard it all now!
I think this just goes to show the power of wings, the unionists are sh1t scared of this blog atl and btl
although wings gets no credit, wbb was a game changer
the quality of the arguments by stu were second to none
the fact that it was crowd funded in quick time then distributed is a credit to the people who read and support this blog
and wings is now pre eminent in all pro yes social media
that is why I have been calling for an official launch of yes2 and the selection of someone to head yes2. I can see the desire for this to happen in all yes social media
difference this time is that it cannot be the snp who appoint a head or launch yes2
I can think of no grass roots organization better than wings to be tasked with this
1. chose someone to head yes2
2. let him make the “official” launch address
3. we crowd fund wbb2 (re-why we are not better together) and distribute it
who elected wingers?…no one…that’s why it is grass roots, neither is it very official, it doesn’t have to be. it just needs to fire the starting gun. the people of Scotland will do the rest
The third most important thing I learnt was that I have all the time in the world for genuine people, as for total bellends, not so much.
My advice would be, never encourage a bellend.
@schrodingers cat – good subject to discuss on Off-topic.
Excellent, Rev! I’ll get it all together into a wee video later this week.
@ Hobbit
“And don’t even think about repudiating rUK debt …”
It’s NOT “rUK debt”. It’s UK debt. The legal entity that is the UK legally own the debt. NOT Scotland. Furthermore, it is debt run up by the rUK NOT Scotland. (Read Ashcroft’s comments).
Now – if you have your nextdoor neighbour running your household budget and they start maxing out your credit card, do you allow them to continue their spending binge, getting you ever more into debt, or, do you do the sensible thing and take the credit card off them and look after things yourself?
That is Scotland’s predicament and it has to end. And it will end soon(ish).
O/T
For those who may have missed my previous videos:
‘Kez – The Blunder Years’: link to tinyurl.com
Andrew Neil debunked: link to tinyurl.com
BBC & Corp Media NHS crap debunked: link to tinyurl.com
The biggest non-answered question.
If Wings/Stu. is so wrong why is he being vilified by unionists and media?
Almost appears to be a concerted effort to discredit him.
Hobbit
No need to regurgitate everything you “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Con Artists’ said during the Indy Ref. The Indy Ref is over all your hate preaching, scare mongering, media manipulation worked. You won.
Quite frankly my dear if you Slabber NObbers are feeling guilty because of the methods you used to win well I really don’t give a damn.
Bye!
Petra notes, “Osborne’s reduction of Corporation Tax, from 20% to 18% by 2020, now means it’s one of the lowest in the World (already lowest rate in the G20) but not low enough for him / his family members it would seem!”
Compare: in ‘Scotland’s Future’, the SNP said that its proposed 3 per cent corporation tax cut would lift output by 1.4 per cent, jobs by 1.1 per cent (27,000) and investment by 1.9 per cent – by 2034!
Si it’s bad when Osborne does it and good when the Scottish Government proposes to do it.
Geoff Aberdein was recently reported as saying that the SNP lost the independence vote because it failed to convince voters of the economic case for independence. I could hardly call him a Unionist troll.
I’d call just one more tory chancer, Hobbit.
What about The Vow for gawds sake?
Why did they hide EVEL until 19 September last year?
Logic dictates, actually “give” Scotland devo-max and that’s end of YES.
But its never going to happen.
Take The Vow, use it fcuk Scotland hard, bish bosh, SNP out, YES finished, SLAb back in charge and its all rule Britannia in their Scotland region, how JC wants it. with an indy SLabour goon show, lol.
BBC Scotland lunchtime tv headline I caught today, ANOTHER great Scottish fail, this time in NY, NY, cue smirking news gimp, its all down to Nic Sturgeon and SNP bad.
I think it was Glasgow uni’s crashed and burned trying to open a campus in New York but even so, Project Fear’s gonna getcha ya too small, stupid, poor Scotland, BBC says so.
The map on that factcheck page shows a big reason why London fought so hard to keep control over Scotland.
When sea boundaries are drawn in, and a proportional ‘non-BBC’ map is used, then the total land+sea area of Scotland is far bigger than the rest of the UK.
link to gov.scot
Scotland has a third of the land area of the UK.
But Scotland has almost six times as much sea area as land area.
That’s a huge amount of natural resources for only 8.3% of the population. Not just oil and gas, but wind, wave, fisheries, minerals, sand and gravel, military, security, shipping, leisure etc
Huge assets for an independent country in charge of its own destiny.
@ ArtyHetty: I have the book the Scots Crisis of Confidence” by Carol Craig. I guess I’ll have to reread in response to your comments as there was much in the book I agreed with.
I do recall something about Scots nation being inclined to logical thinking rather than blind patriotism? Skepticism if you like, and arguably why many Scots voted No, the case for Indy was not strong enough for them. I came across much of this during campaigning, “Yes I understand and believe what you are saying, and I’ll look up Wings on the internet, but….”.
The power and ruthlessness of the Establishment passes over the heads of many.The venomous look on Osborne’s face following the Lords voting should be an awakening of what is to come.
sensibledave seems to have plenty of time on his hands. Is he one of several perchance?
@ Ruby says at 1:30 pm ”Petra what would you suggest be done? Should everyone agree with sensible dave? Bow down to our Imperial Masters? What would be the point of trying to convince ‘sensible dave’ of anything when he doesn’t have a vote in Scotland? Personally I’ve had enough of these “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves” who can’t even articulate their aims & objectives for posting on Scottish political forums.”
I wasn’t referring to Sensible Dave in particular Ruby. And no I wouldn’t agree with anyone that I don’t actually agree with nor do I bow down to anyone.
What would I do? If someone is non-abusive and making a point I’d either answer them in equal fashion (non-abusive) if the subject matter was of interest to me (and I was conversant with the subject matter) or just ignore them altogether if it wasn’t.
As to ”What would be the point of trying to convince ‘sensible dave’ of anything when he doesn’t have a vote in Scotland?”
Well as I see it it’s not really about trying to convince individuals like Sensible Dave to agree with Independence because he clearly has his own opinion on that. However his views and the points that he makes relate to issues that many no voters (and undecided) in Scotland hold / are concerned about so in answering him they in turn have their questions answered.
Many people who ARE in a position to vote in a Scottish Referendum visit this site but don’t necessarily post anything at all. They read the posts and form an opinion of individuals who support Independence. People from around the World (including rUK) visit this site too and everyone who posts on here should be aware that we are role models not just for the Independence cause but for Scotland overall.
And I’m sure that we are all conscious of the fact that there are others who visit this site with the SOLE objective of bringing out the worst in people and often manage to do so.
The map on that factcheck page shows a big reason why London fought so hard to keep control over Scotland.
There’s all that Scotland but, if iEngland sees PR Scotland thriving without the whole Westminster HoL red/blue tory sewer, what will the plebs of England want too?
Fantastic article.
There are however numerous challenges facing the O & G industry in Scotland.
There is a lot going on just now, in effect a re-calibration is taking place.
Whether still tied to the UK or not there are major issues that need to be met head-on if the industry is to remain viable.
Aging assets and infrastructure, lack of investment, decommissioning costs and believe it or not a persistent skills shortage are all matters that need to be addressed – and quickly.
I firmly believe the obstacles above can only be surmounted if we are independent.
The British government have criminally mis-managed the O & G industry since its infancy.
They are now seeking to cripple it irrepairably and remove the skill Base to work on their defence and nuclear vanity projects.
This is obvious if you look at any engineering job boards on the Internet.
Their strategy is laid bare for all to see, but no voters don’t want to see, do they?
They lose their jobs and meekly accept it.
Cheap oil from Iran etc, secure supplies from Falklands (carriers needed), Power from Chinese reactors (kill Scottish renewables / wave), impose subservient service economy with low paid jobs.
That’s it.
Let’s stop them, separate ourselves and build a decent country.
I’ve seen a few people mentioning the chokka blog as some sort of authority. Well, in the past there have been people mentioning WOS as some sort of authority. Could it be that there is a NOer emerging to rival the Rev, and become the focus for NOers?
I certainly hope so, I read some of his blog.
Petra what you would do and what I would do are two totally different things!
For example I would never take the time to type a great long post giving others a finger wagging lecture on how they should behave that is unless they post about sport or if Stu appointed me the moderator of this forum.
seriously o/t,
This has been puzzling me for some time, it is now the 21st century, and most folks know how the internet and message boards work. So, why do folks on here, keep indulging obvious and well known trolls? A serious question.
A good article, thank you.
If you do a review, might it be worth mentioning the missing VAT, collected in Scotland by big companies (e.g. Tesco, M&S B&Q) and paid to the UK treasury by head office in England thus attributed to English revenue.
David Wallace @1.51
Exactly.
Thread spoiled, flow interrupted.
You can’t change a unionist zealots point of view FFS, let them wallow in their own pish.
“An uninterrupted hour fronted by an informed, erudite, benign questioner with one or two quests around a desk for a single issue show, he or she NOT there to interrogate, but to encourage the guests to open out about their themselves, their vision, and develop their ideas.”
You just described Hard Talk.
(Ruby you are being immoderate)
Yesindyref2
I read some of Mr Chokka’s stuff and it is OK but a bit dull to read. Heavy reliance and sweating of graphs which never tells you all that much.
Someone on the Groaniard had Alexa stats for Wings which showed a surprisingly high ranking for a Scottish independence blog. I tried plugging in Chokkablog – I think the people quoting him on the Groan must be his only regular readers.
@ heedtracker
I wish the plebs of England would get up of their backsides heed,instead of coming on here and talking about something they know squat about.
I see it everywhere moaning their heads off but their idea of a social revolution is to back the Labour party the very same Labour party they rejected at the GE,talk about blinkered and zipped up the back.
Stu I’m thinking of printing this off and distributing it around. Let me know if that’s unacceptable.
O/T
I watched BBC Reporting Scotland earlier and they were at it again.
Subject: The Scottish University that is the first in the UK to open a campus in New York.
Problem: It still has no degree students, two years after it was launched, due to waiting on their application being approved.
The BBC states that it ”has learned that Glasgow Caledonian University has spent £5.6m developing an offshoot in Manhattan.”
You see footage of Nicola Sturgeon at the campus followed by Jackie Baillie complaining that “What we have here is a University’s ambition going far ahead of what they can deliver in reality. And what we’re left with is a very expensive white elephant.”
Then they speak to Professor Miller who says “We will generate that money back. I’ve got no doubt about that.”
The viewer is left thinking that £5.6 million of taxpayers money has been wasted on a University that is lying empty. However I watched this earlier on STV and realised that the BBC had actually cut Professor Miller’s response short as he pointed out that not one penny of public money has been spent on this. Additionally students (at non-degree level) are actually attending the University.
Will they ever give up?!
This is you at your best. Factual, coherent and believable. I wish you would stick to this style rather than get involved with foul mouthed arguments with nonentities on Twitter . It diminishes you as a reliable source of information
@H&S
That’s a shame. I looked at his Neil article about TME and DEL, a quick look and found 2 very basic mistakes. I forget what but all it took was a fairly quick look at the gov.scot website. Not sure whether that article has been deleted or not.
I also looked at his “debunking” of the WBB, just a few seconds and one of the bar charts showing relative deficit caught my eye. I checked with GERS 2009-10. He has the wrong comparative deficit, totally the other way.
It would make life very easy if the NOers were all quoting as “fact” something which was so easy to prove wrong, with gov.uk or gov.scot links and quotes 🙂
I think the people quoting him on the Groan must be his only regular readers.
One of them is chockablog.
Oor keverage’s found a gazzilion ways to say Scotland has debt and deficit and is therefore too small, poor, stupid to economically grow out of it. So stick with England, keep a suckin on those UKOK teets, safe, secure, share, pool, vote anyone but SNP.
Oh and WoS is the devil’s doodoo.
But that’s all. His creepy blend of condescension and whiny sneering malice is what we’ve all come to enjoy, from all kinds of britnats and unionists, who, lets face it, did in fact hammer the Scots, for our own good, ofcourse:D
John King: You just described Hard Talk.
No, John. That show is invariably confrontational.
The interviewer I describe is of a different kind – he/she admires the guest he has invited, keen to know more about them and their work – hence, could be a filmmaker, and artist, or a social worker, not only a politician.
The round table between is important, with NO background illumination, or faked panoramas of some city or other.
The more Neil tries to defend himself the more duplicitous he looks. Neil and the bbc deserve each other; the lowest form of life and his incubator.
All this too poor stuff from the Yoonys, they hate us, but they want us, as long as we all remain silent, but why do they want to talk to us so much and get so angry about trying to convince us we’re worthless and then get angrier when we say, no we’re not
I suspect they’ve got an ulterior motive (sarcasm)
We are called the United Kingdom but there are only two Kingdoms and when Scotland becomes Independent there wont be a Rest of the United Kingdom, that wont exist
There will be Wales, Northern Ireland and England, which will still be Britain of course
But will it still be “Great” without us moaning Jockistanis Mmm
Sometimes I imagine that Rev Stu`s life must be like one long neverending game of “Whack a Mole”
Has anyone else seen this and are we surprised? better together eh.
Scottish government ‘excluded’ from EU steel talks.
A request by the Scottish government to attend EU steel talks in Brussels has been rejected by the UK government.
Scottish Business Minister Fergus Ewing had asked to be take part in the talks, which are being attended by his UK counterpart Sajid Javid.
But Mr Javid said it would not be possible to accommodate Mr Ewing’s request.
i’ll bet he did BS******
I agree another Wee Blue Book would be a good idea, but as you have much more time… we have no idea when the referendum will be… maybe it could be expanded to a Big Blue Book.
Your information is invaluable, but there are too many people who will never see it, just because of the “Wings” name being blackened by their associates.
If you were inclined you could feel sorry for the likes of Andrew Neil, he like so many have been willing tools for those who actually despise him. I cannot think of one person who calls themselves English who would do what he and others do which is sell their people out for the benefit of another. What on earth will these people do when Scotland does become Independent, no job here and none where they are. Sad, well maybe not.
@sensibledave “Based upon the above, and many of my previous comments on similar subjects, you will note that I have the ability to be objective.”
No you’re not. No matter how hard you – or I – try to be objective, we’re subject to our own experience, opinions and bias, whether we’re aware of it or not.
But I enjoy your postings.
Shortly after the Referendum The Record removed their on-line commnts facility – probably because most of the respondents were pro indy.
They have today restored the comments facility and I suggest that Wingers register on their site and join in the fun.
Thank you Rev, for this article I’m sick of having the price of oil shoved down my throat by the unionists, as a reason for not obtaining independence.
@ Grumpomcchief
Like or not how Rev responds on Twitter, he’s responding no different now than he did a couple of years ago so nothing’s changed. Only difference is now it suits the media to highlight it.
Just a wee bit off topic but is related to Scotland/England thingy. Noticed this morning that England has seen the development and return of Victorian diseases. Malnutrition being the most virulent with number having doubled in the last year. Perhaps all those people here criticising
(Senseless) might be better having a good look at themselves first before coming on here. This a direct result of the policies of the Party he votes for.
Hi Grouse Beater.
“he/she admires the guest he has invited, keen to know more about them and their work”
That describes the Graham Norton Show!
8=)
With this post you have surpassed yourself, Stu, and given us an absolute gem of an article and a brilliant resource for the future. No praise is too great for your efforts as can be seen in the comments of so many today.
This is on a par with the McCrone Report, in that once read there is no going back. My only wish, shared by many others, is that this piece is broadcast far and wide by all means possible.
But even a post as brilliant as this has many obstacles to overcome not least the Tory Government and their State broadcast and print media. But in addition, if my family is anything to go by, is voter fatigue – for want of a better description. Nearer the Holyrood elections of course, interest among the general public will pick up again, but for those voters who have work and family and other things to attend to, politics is not high on the list of priorities, albeit a whole lot higher than before Indy. The Indy flame just has a little less gas in it than before. But it certainly hasn’t gone out.
@Arty Hetty
Perhaps you might want to do what I did with a book written by an American, trying to tell her readers what Scotland was like (based on a bad American/Scots marriage) – and failing miserably! I wrote a review giving my take as a Scot, living in Scotland, making it known that the book fell way short of any objectivity and NO understanding of the historical context.
I made it clear I would not pass on such drivel (the book) to others that weren’t in a position – or didn’t care to – check out the facts for themselves. And that my intention that afternoon was to shred it down into mouse bedding… Apologies to the mouse! But – it sure made me feel so much better! 🙂
yesindyref2 3:51 pm
You wrote: “But I enjoy your postings.”
… you couldn’t have a word in Ruby’s “shell like” for me could you.
@ Helena.
” I cannot think of one person who calls themselves English who would do what he and others do which is sell their people out for the benefit of another.”
Lord Haw Haw?
@Frann Leach “but there are too many people who will never see it, just because of the “Wings” name being blackened by their associates.”
Yes, which is why I’ll do my bit to “defend” it. I have a peculiar advantage in that I’ve neve read it. Just the first page which was an index or something – seemed to cover the topics. So I’ll keep it that way, and not read it.
It means my work is my own, if I refute anyone’s claims, it’s my work, not the WBB.
But – there’s no such thing as bad publicity, the more the merrier. It may get otherwise uninterested people to have a look for themselves to see what all the fuss is about.
Excellent article, Rev.
Davidson, Rennie and Dugdale should be asked to read this and, in the unlikely event they understood its import, be asked for their counter-arguments by a free and fair MSM.
But of course that won’t happen.
Ruby says:
28 October, 2015 at 2:17 pm
Lesley-Anne
He can’t be serious!
I have to either get out the kick-boxing kit or do some meditation!
Bloddy ‘Slabber NObbers’ could they not have voted YES!
Food Banks being turned into Job Centres I’ve heard it all now!
I think he really needs to cut down on the number of Spliffs he smokes each day Ruby.
Still look on the bright side. With all the hard work both Iain Drunken Spliff and Ozzy “dopehead” Osborne are putting in to kill off as many homeless, poor, disabled eldery, low paid etc they are protecting everyone contributing (NOT) to the £120 BILLION in unpaid taxes to the Treasury and the £167 BILLION American controlled replacement White Elephant!
O/T but interesting.
Faraway in my cabin in the Rockies I Googled PMQs today.
While Call Me Dave was stickhandling around the Lords and tax credit issue with the usual shit-eating grin on his face, the Tory Babes – the gaggle of semi-sensual lobby fodder MPs that are strategically seated behind Cameron to leave the false TV impression that the Tories aren’t all Jacob Reese Mogg dinosaurs – did not appear to be enjoying dumping 3 million po’ folk into the poverty land fill.
While Gideon spent the entire session looking like he’d just swallowed a dog turd.
The only guy on the Conservative bench who appeared to be enjoying himself – fresh from being splashed across every morning paper in the UK with his tug-of-war arse plant – was Boris.
A rare visit to the green room from BoJo on a day when Cammy and Osborne are looking like yesterday’s men.
What can it all mean?
Yet another marvellous uncontestable deconstruction of the Great British Rip-off of Scotland.
Why don’t the BBC make a series of that title ?It’s got Great British in it after all.
Now that really would be be doing a public service to their TV tax payers in their Scotland region.
Unfortunately, it ain’t gonna happen,ever.
All we’ll get is more lies,spin and obfuscation from the Britnat media.Not to mention their sneaky,ever so civilized,salt of the earth trolls.
problem is, we now have a coordinated snpbad attack continuously ongoing in the media.
during the referendum, the unionists could have alloed at least one of the Scottish dailies to come out for yes, with 45% voting yes, it would have made financial sense. they didn’t though, sites like wings were a reaction to this bias. it was the unionists who launched the trajectory of yes movement, they created the present situation.
so now even when the other small pro indy parties make even the slightest criticism of the snp, justified or otherwise, they get jumped on by the vast majority in social media. they are seen to be jumping on the constant bandwagon of snpbad bias. this is the background that politics in Scotland is now played out against.
so now, even if I disagreed with something the snp did or said, I wouldn’t criticise them publicly. why should I? why should I give the unionists any ammunition? why should I be objective and fair? what is fair about being forced by law to pay the bbc for the priviledge of being lied to?
this is the rod the unionists have made for themselves. its also the rod which will break the union’s back.
Don’t know how you find the time to get into such detail and accuracy but I am very glad you do. Brilliant stuff. I think it is time for another Yes campaign as the SNP are too busy running the country – or as much of it as they are allowed to.
New Para(only joking).
They,the SNP, should be running recruiting meetings all over the country using the stars like Sheppard, Black, and their likes to give one hour speeches followed by question and answer sessions. In this way they could pull in the punters and swell the ranks.
Meanwhile someone needs to take up the Yes Indy banner. Preferably a non party political person. The events and time is right – strike while the Iron is hot.
Sorry folks,
I’m a bit late today, so have not read all the posting, if this has already been mentioned , sorry.
Stew, I see that Jenny Hjul,( aye the same one), has attract you in today’s Courier, actually all this “wings” exposure, I think is more beneficial to the Independance side, rather than the unionist one,
Long may they continue to attract you, for they know not what damage they are doing to themselves, ’cause you can handel them.
I agree we need to go for independence. This chance might not last forever.
I will say it again the only reason the bbc and the media in general are not reporting the truth is because the only one who has the power to change that does nothing and yes I mean the Scottish government to stand by and and see all these wrongs being done in my mind that is an even greater crime for gods sake act and put a stop to this hypocrisy.
I have no doubts that Scotland can be a successful country.
What is more important is that it will be a fairer country that will have no military drive to intervere in other nations affairs at a political level but will be a nation that will seek to assist the people impacted by the madness of war.
The finacial arguement is won in my view. However the balance sheet is still challenged on the basis of Scotland being a mini-UK.
For the benefit of the “hard of thinking” we do not desire Scotland to be a mini UK. I want the Scotland that started to take shape during the YES campaign.
If you look at one area – Defence.
Without weapons of “Force Projection” such as Astute class submarines / Trident replacement / Aircraft carriers etc. We could have a Navy suited to the coastline/sea area of our nation. We could have longe range patrol aircraft and an army based in Scotland. This would be cheaper than our current contribution to Westminster and the civilian jobs would be far, far higher in Scotland. It would also be nice to have our troops based in Scotland and spending their money in Scotland instead of an English town.
We want to be Independent in order that we can be different. A nation for the many instead of the few.
@Grouse Beater
I’m up during the night a lot, and have the beeb on as background, same for years. Hard Talk used to be good but more and more it’s the interviewer’s agenda that fills maybe 90% of the time, not whoever’s being interviewed. Which is a shame as there’s a lot of interesting people on as guests who are, basically, wasting their time.
The fact that Andrew Neil is a Scotsman suits Cameron & Co down to the ground for the same reason as the Germans used Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce:www.bbc.co.uk/archive/hawhaw/) and the Japanese used Tokyo Rose(Iva Toguri: link to biography.com). Joyce was hanged for treason while Iva Toguri was imprisoned.
Hearing ‘a fellow scot’ on TV, regularly criticise the Scottish government and the SNP, Scottish listeners may become a little demoralised – at least, that’s what the BBC hopes.
The ‘YES’ side didn’t win the PR battle during the referendum, despite the facts being on their side.
That probably played a very large part in the defeat. A lot of ‘soft’ NO voters unsure about the change.
Amazing really. I guess, the sheer power of the MSM.
@AlbertaScot
Cameron and Osborne have three problems. They have a slim majority of 12. There are a number of decent Conservatives, and hopefully a growing number. Boris Johnson.
Won’t be long now, as I keep saying for a lot of reasons!
O/T Walked past Fluffy Mundell’s constituency office in Moffat this afternoon – It’s got a big “To Let” sign in the window.
It’s been there for years, so I was a bit surprised. Still pissed that we came so close to getting rid of him, but fell 800 votes short. Next time …
Phillipa Whiteford doing awful well on BBC Parliament.
No notes totally on top of her Health subjects. Another SNP gem.
You won’t hear about this on Reporting Scotland.’
yesindyref2 5:12 pm
You wrote: “There are a number of decent Conservatives, and hopefully a growing number. Boris Johnson.”
What?!?!? You will get yourself debarred uttering such sacrilege. If you live anywhere near Ruby, Heedy or Helena Brown – best keep looking over your shoulder!
@Petra
Stuart has no problem with the dissemination of his articles – that’s why there is a Print PDF button at the bottom of every post.
What?!?!? You will get yourself debarred uttering such sacrilege. If you live anywhere near Ruby, Heedy or Helena Brown – best keep looking over your shoulder!
You sneaky shit.
Sensibledave, I love Bojo. At the very least he’s honest, about teamGBnomics. A pound in Croydon is much nicer than a pound wasted on the sweaties
link to youtube.com
Anyway sensible, another day of jock baiting swills down your drain. We already have BBC Scotland for all that. So be of UKOK use sensible, so
Why was EVEL dumped on us last week sensible and why was EVEL held back from Scotland until 19 Sept 2014?
Alan Weir says
” If the unionist response is dry your eyes, all in the past so forget it, the response should be same holds for our supposed obligation to UK debt. ”
Why do you think they were at pains to point out that the debt would be underwritten by the UK prior to the referendum?
not because thay wanted us to walk away Scot free but because they knew once the books were opened it could have been the only outcome since they’ve been robbing us blind for years,
They would be liable for a repayment to Scotland that would put the cost of lend lease into the realms of “a wee sub till Friday”
This information is what we all waited (in vein) for the SNP to wheel out just before the referendum we all knew they were going to unleash the big guns right up to the point when they did nothing at all.
To say I was dissapointed would be to suggest that the guy who threw his winning lottery ticket on the fire just at the point when he realised he has just burned a 100 million pound winning ticket was a little miffed,
I find it hard to forgive the SNP for that.
Sensible Dave @ 1:03
“Andrew, my previous comments had absolutely nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL It was about parties lying.”
Oh Really!
Though in your post of the 24 October 11:41 you appear to think it a great thing do you not? “Some seem to think that this legislation is all about doing something negative to Scots. Its not. Its about doing something positive for the English.”
But that’s not the only time you past an opinion, for In your post of the 23 October 10:31 in discussing EVEL and its rules you say “If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.”
Again in your post of 23 October 10:41 in discussing costs of implementation you say “ it will represent excellent value for money in comparison to any other Assembly, or Parliament, in the UK.”
Continuing in your view in your post of 23 October 12:02 you comment on its aims, “to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.”
Then in your assertion that it’s just about political parties lying, you use the Liberal excuse made by Sir Malcolm Bruce that all politicians lie, when defending a known liar. Not the best repost to use in a post about hypocrisy I would have thought!
Then you say you only picked out the SNP as an example of this but you state in your post of 23 October 4:16 “The only people in a froth about this issue were SNP politicians”
You see David “I will continue to call out hypocrisy when I see it.” I do as you recommend am circumspect when reading stuff and I do a bit of investigation myself. Do you like Matthew David ? “For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.”
But very good use of ecclesiastical terminology for lying, in your reply, made me smile ?
@sensibledave
Everyone has their style, that’s what makes it fun 😎
yesindyref2 5:12 pm
You wrote: “There are a number of decent Conservatives, and hopefully a growing number. Boris Johnson.”
what the man who for a jolly jape used to burn £20 pound notes under beggars noses?
You never watched I claudius, the bumbling fool, will cut you up!
ANGRY UNIONISTS – STRANGE ISN’T IT.
The answer lies in the recent past, and the best search tool in this instance is not Google, but, just as powerful in it’s own way, hindsight. The Unionists do not want us to have the benefit of hindsight which may be one of the reasons why we are urged to forget about Indy14.
There is a book of hindsights on IndyRef14 which remains to be written and when it is, it will be compulsory reading not least because there is so much about Indy that we still don’t understand.
Almost every Unionist in the land seems to be angry these days as testified by other commenters. There has to be an explanation, given that there is a reason for everything and this is no exception. David Cameron himself has become a pretty angry guy, at a time when, ostensibly, he has little reason to be angry.
My own suspicion is that Cameron is not coping with carrying the knowledge of what he and his Government has done and I think he may be nervous about it coming to light.
It might be that the Carmichael trial contains a threat. Or, it could be that people are now talking openly about how he and his party lied to the electorate before the GE about cuts to tax credits. That could become a very big thing politically.
Or, he may fear a Unionist trouncing in the Holyrood elections come May, despite his State manufactured onslaught against the SG and the SNP.
Or perhaps he sees EVEL isn’t going to work very well, if he ever did, which is a worry if he used the EVEL announcement merely as a squirrel to take attention away from the Referendum result. It was a very strange thing to do on the morning after the Indy ballot.
Or, it could be the EU Referendum, and especially with it coming so soon after IndyRef. Everyone will compare and contrast the two which will make fixing the EU REF very difficult. A ‘remain’ vote is essential to Cameron, but fixing the result will carry a huge risk. It is not impossible that the EU REF will show that Indy was ‘interfered’ with.
But perhaps the biggest reason of all why the Unionists are angry is because Independence hasn’t gone away. There is no greater threat to the entire way of life of the English Establishment than Scottish Independence.
Isn’t it strange that the whole of England and half of Scotland believes the tale of how Scotland is poor and needs the subsidy of the Barnett Formula to keep us going.
While the Establishment are shi**ing themselves at the though of it.
Neither the Brothers Grimm nor Hans Christian Andersson could have written a fairy story like the one about the poor Scots.
Cameron should be angry about children in the UK going to bed hungry, but that doesn’t bother him.
Instead, he’s angry at the thought of losing his privileged and wealthy way of life.
He and all like him.
Sensible Dave
😉
Actually – replying to a time waster and not using paragraph breaks does make it easier to identify and skim past.
@Andrew McLean
I mean Boris is the third problem for Cameron and Osborne!
They do have others of course, but we won’t go into that …
Here’s more PMQ insight from my cabin in the Rockies.
Whenever Angus or Wishart get up to lob their quota pair of hand grenades – unlike other MPs questions when all that weird braying happens – the place goes deadly quiet.
The Tories appear totally unnerved by the SNP. So are the Labour under-achievers and champagne socialists.
It only gets worse when they use cynical Scots humour on them – as Alex and Pete did later during the ban the Lords (as if) dust up.
The Posh Boys just don’t know how to confront and counter act Scots being Scots. Unless you put on one of those fake down south accents like Flipper and Gordo.
Strange but true.
I have sat and explained this to no voters before Ref1 last year and it was as if I were speaking a different language.
Again I have sat and explained after this years down turn in oil prices, that Scotland only gets 8.4% of the revenues allocated as that’s the size of our population ratio to the UK and rUK gets the rest. And Scotland would not be fucked if it were independent.
I have sat and explained how GERS is worked out.
It was the Cuthberts that explained to a Holyrood committee in 2013, ” the underestimation” of Scotlands finances is “unquantifiable” using GERS.
And still the shaking of the heads continue. Its like banging your head off a brick wall. What is so difficult in the understanding of it?
Sorry Wingers, just venting aff a wee tatey.
Well, I’d be the first to admit that I don’t have much time for the Orange type unionists who are into all that flute band stuff etc. I don’t think it would be possible to convert or find common ground there.
But there are a lot of people of that persuasion who are relatively moderate. And I think as a whole this whole demographic is becoming more moderate.
Let me be the first to hold out some sort of olive branch and ask them to reconsider their opposition to Scottish independence. There is a place for you in the ranks; and, incidentally, they aren’t our ranks — they belong to anyone and everyone who joins them.
I like to think, all other differences aside, that any two men can gather under a banner of reason. And, providing we are willing to put the future of our children and their interests before our own, I see no reason why we can’t all find improvement by simply listening and exchanging ideas as to the best way to go forward.
These issues are far too important to future generations to be reduced to inane differences over football, religion, and flags.
Get involved and help us. Help us to make our country better for all our children.
FergusMac says:
O/T Walked past Fluffy Mundell’s constituency office in Moffat this afternoon – It’s got a big “To Let” sign in the window
well done on resisting the urge to paint an extra “I” on the sign 🙂
Meanwhile someone needs to take up the Yes Indy banner. Preferably a non party political person. The events and time is right – strike while the Iron is hot.
yes2 Head
Robin MacAlpine
Terrific post.
Regarding the obsessional chokka one. He is a parasite. He lives off a host – Wings – to enable his own survival ie composing his own blog. Should there be no Wings, there would be no chokkashite. A parasite in the true definition of the word. No better than a hookworm.
And by the way and O/T-ish:
While posting yesterday BTL Severin Carrell/Guardian’s shitty little piece of snide Wings and Stu Campbell-bad smear, wouldn’t you know it but up comes the Guardian’s let’s-get-rid-of-another-pesky-Jockistinian red card, the dreaded “Your comments are currently being pre-moderated.”.
I had replied to a few of the Unionist flamer-trolls using language far from the abuse and offense they themselves had used. But, whaddya know, I’m the one who gets naughty-stepped while the flamer-troll-abusers are still there, quite unobstructed from doing their thing!
Anyway, normal forum rules have gone out the window at the Guardian since the indyref1 campaign period so I’m not too surprised.
There are a few regular pro-Scottish independence posters on the Guardian’s CiF who do a valiant job. I don’t know how they can be arsed with it all since the place is now an ugly Unionist shriek-hole full of abusive haters who the Guardian are, seemingly, quite happy to have BTL ‘representing their views’ [sic].
Ach well, fuck them anyway! The indyref1 experience outed the Guardian as a bunch of hypocritical, faux-left liars and nothing more than just another pro-Brit Establishment mouthpiece, so for that at least we should be thankful.
Big Jock says:
I agree we need to go for independence. This chance might not last forever.
Hold….Hold….Hold…
Petra
Re printing this blog -if you go up to the end of Stu’s post theres a green button labelled Print PDF-thats exactly what its for.All posts have this button.
I have tried to get through a couple of Kevin Hague’s articles but I really struggle. I find his stuff so boring that I can’t get through them. Stuart has a great skill in making economics accessible and understandable. And he writes well, which helps.
If someone wrote a post genuinely trying to tackle these complex issues I would read it but the seeming obsession with Wings Kevin has (that is certainly how it comes across to me) makes me suspect that the very accusations he levels at Stuart is applicable in his own case.
I suppose when it comes down to it, I don’t want to read something by somebody who doesn’t think Scotland could be a successful independent country – it’s a losing mentality. Remember the Richard Branson contradiction anyone?
That is one of your best articles I’ve seen in a long time Stu. Thanks keep it up. I really enjoyed how it exploded right into the heart of the unionist propaganda. We need this kinda of stuff. Superb
o/t again, sorry Rev but it looks like your moment of fame re the Daily Record is over, sadly you seem to have been removed, I hope you aren’t hurt too much!
Talking about GERS, which Kevin Hague seems to ignore in his own data retrieval, here’s an interesting find I’ve started reading, it’s answers to public queries about GERS:
link to gov.scot
Q1 being probably the least interesting one.
@Lollysmum –
Thanks for heids-up about PDF button – honestly never even noticed it before.
(P.S. Anyone know why damp Nawbags were hanging around with UJs in ‘George’ Square today? See WOS Twitter, ‘3 hours ago’…)
Mmm, having used the HMRC tables in postings, the ones disadgregated by “region”, this is a very interesting one:
link to gov.scot
ot
WGD
the poor peasants of Ukovia found themselves looking to an electorally illegitimate chamber to protect them from the bastards in the elected one.
weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/constitutional-necrosis/#comments
O/T
I don’t know if anyone watched PMQT this afternoon, Angus Roberston really put David Cameron on the spot today with his 2 questions, both relating to the suicides of 2 Englishmen after being told that they were fit for work.
David Cameron gave a reply that held the excuse that he couldn’t release details due to confidential medical information.
The camera then panned onto the face of IDS, his face was grim, he wasn’t enjoying the questions at all.
Great to see the SNP really driving home the callousness of the Tory government.
That describes the Graham Norton Show!
There should be humour because the session is good-natured even when a question is probing, but it’s about what ever the guests has achieved – like a novelist – and not a total of five minutes of answers interspersed with risqué jokes, patter and a song. 🙂
Grouse Beater says
“John King: You just described Hard Talk.
No, John. That show is invariably confrontational.”
Well let me put it this way, if I was to describe the way I would have our representatives interveiwed (not grilled) it would be the way Stephen Sackur does it, he asks difficult questions but then allows the interveiwee the time to answer without the hectoring nature of people like Gordon Brewer,
I dont think we should give our represenatives a free ride, what the hell is the point of that?
we just end up with the softball interveiws Kezia Dugdales become used to, where she can say what the hell she likes and knows full well she wont be challenged,
If Nicola Sturgeon sits in the Hardtalk seat she knows it wont be to pander to her but she at least will be given the right to respond,
thats the kind of telvision I want to see.
@Petra says:
It smacks of narrow minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.
We are also supposed to be encouraging prior no voters or undecided people to come over to our side. If I was in one of these categories I wouldn’t dare venture on here and to be honest this kind of attitude would put me off voting yes at all in future.
Petra, if you’re responding to what is being posted in reply to what sensibledave says, but I believe your mistaken. And, sorry to say it, but you’ve been had.
He (presumably) is not here as one who voted No in Indyref1, has heard about Wings and is interested in what the Yes position is should Indyref2 come into being.
He has admitted that he is an English person who lives in England, was not eligible to vote in Indyref and did not do so. He also says he is a Tory voter.
He is not here to debate or follow the topic of the article ATL. He is here to sow discord, be purposely provocative, to flame, to create off-topic arguments and divisiveness. All classic troll behaviour.
With your response of “It smacks of narrow-minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.”, you’ve fallen right into his trap. These are the kind of responses he wants to see here. He is sowing discord and divisiveness and discord and divisiveness is what he’s getting.
Never mind, though, just ignore him the next time. Yes, it’s hard, but being ignored is what trolls really, really hate.
And yes, he will reply to this post with accusations and lies. He’ll say that it’s me who is the troll. He’ll say that he is genuine and not a troll – oh no! And yes, he will try to get people onto his side. All classic troll behaviour. Beware.
@ Ian Brotherhood at 7.06pm.
Ian you do surprise me-you’ve been here far longer than me so thought you would have clocked it before now. Oh well we live & learn eh?
Saw that sad looking bunch on Twitter & we came to the conclusion that it was a workshop on how to display the butchers apron correctly.They failed dismally judging by the photo 🙂
@Ian Brotherhood,
I believe they were looking for the story about what would happen to George Sq if the SNP took over GCC. I believe the SNP want to keep it as a meeting place and an oasis for meeting ,talking ,relaxing etc.
This would mean resiting many of the events that currently take place there throughout the year.
Labour want no change to George Sq whatsoever.
@skooshcase
Totally disagree. At least sensibledave says what he is, so he’s not posting here pretending to be a YES supporter, but coming out with a whole load of negative despairing vibes attacking all other parts of the Indy movement, and its people.
At the moment it’s 50/50 YES/NO, and unless we get some of those 50% NOes to come with us, that’s the way it is, and that’s the way it’s going to stay.
The way to get people to move across is not to call them trolls, or anyone who disagrees with us trolls, it’s sensible debate, and if a sensible point is made, then answer it, coolly and calmly, or with passion, whatever is your way.
sensibledave might not have a vote, but the 10 to 1 ratio or whatever it is who read but don’t post, are going to wonder what on earth they would be doing joining with people who call everyone who disagrees with them, trolls.
John King: if I was to describe the way I would have our representatives interveiwed (not grilled) it would be the way Stephen Sackur does it, he asks difficult questions but then allows the interveiwee the time to answer without the hectoring
That’s close to what I have in mind – questions quoting critics are eligible, but remember, guests should not be restricted to politicians, and unlike the Norton show they’re not there to sell their latest project.
Anybody is welcome from any walk of life that has accomplished something, here and now, or over many years, from the guy that looks after the municipal toilets telling us of all the incidents and happenings, to a Nobel prize winner relating how he became obsessed with discovering whatever.
🙂
@sensibledave says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:03 pm:
“I was pointed to the SNP web site and the pages on the SNP policy with respect to EVEL. In all fairness, a more distorted picture of the “truth” would be hard to write. There are statements there that are designed only to mislead and misrepresent, and others which are pure untruths.”
Hilarious! Simply hilarious!
You really are a total numptie, Sensibledave.
Among all the inti-Scottish invective that passes for argument or debate, yours is the most consistently idiotic.
You write a ream of utter crap without a single specific reference to any specific point or figure and expect intelligent independence seekers to swallow it as reasoned argument. Any fool can make such claims.
You have made an accusation against the SNP yet have not quoted a single fact or figure, nor argued any specific points. Bullshit only baffles brains when the recipient is ignorant of the truth – Wingers are not ignorant of the truth. So either make your point or piss off.
“Labour want no change to George Sq whatsoever.”
[Obliquely to the discussion] I remember my wife meeting Glasgow’s Labour leader not so long ago – she doesn’t mince her words – asking why the square was resurfaced in red. Getting a garbled reply she then asked, “What does the red relate to? There’s not a single building or edifice remotely red in the entire square. It jumps at you as totally out of place. And if it’s for the blind how can they see it?”
schrodingers cat
“Labour could have done something about the Lords in 1997 when they were elected with an absolute majority. They chose to replace the hereditary principle with the only thing that was worse – the appointment of their pals.”
Says WGD, but I caught about 30 seconds of Lord Foulkes of SLabour greatness on BBC tv this afternoon, eadgerly explain soberly to future Lord Gordon Brewer of Pacific Quay, that a Labour UK.gov would right now be scrapping the Lords and replacing it with an elected upper chamber, with “representatives of the countries and regions” of teamGB. But said Lord Foulkes, Labour has been thwarted and it was all the SNP voters fault because they let the tories back in.
He didn’t look that drunk either but no one asked Lord Foulkes why he didn’t do it when he was in charge of teamGB.
Guys and gals – sensibledave’s initial post was pretty inoffensive. The SNP HAS over-egged the pudding on the EVEL issue. If they wanted to make a principled case about how this effectively prevents a Scot from becoming PM or Chancellor ever again, I’d be fine. If they wanted to talk about how the UK establishment views Westminster as the English parliament already, I’d be on their side. If they wanted to highlight the absurdity of having a majority of English MPs on the the Scottish Affairs Committee (and from the THIRD party in Scotland too!) then I’d back them to the hilt. But the whole “second class MPs” rhetoric is silly and doesn’t get us anywhere. Derek Bateman said much the same thing the other day, and no-one is doubting HIS Nat credentials, so let’s all relax on that one. It’s not anti-Scotland to point out that the SNP will play petty political point-scoring just as much as most parties. It just often has easier, softer targets.
On a more general point, if a No voter comes on here AT ALL, we have a duty to be unfailingly polite. Wings has the reputation of being Cybernat Central. If we want to convince the world that cybernats are not even a real thing, let alone that Wings isn’t where we gather to get our lies and our orders, we need to be better than anyone else out there.
It’s not wrong to call someone out on telling lies. It’s not wrong to be angry about it. But it’s not helpful and it’s not decent to call anyone names, to assume that anyone who’s anti-independence is a wicked, soulless Tory, or to make snidey remarks about ugly English nationalism.
So yes, sensibledave, I agree with you that the SNP’s handling of the EVEL issue has been bad. “Lies” is a strong word, but they’ve certainly spun it heavily in a direction I don’t much like. However – and I think this speaks to some of the reactions you’ve received here too – the SNP and the independence movement have been victims of a wall of absolute untruth and remarkable anti-Scotland spin for a long, long time. It’s hard for many people here to believe ANYTHING that comes from a Unionist mouth these days because the No campaign, its violence, its intimidation, its outright lies became so outrageous and yet so utterly unchallenged by our “impartial” “national” broadcaster and our rabidly partisan print media. It’s genuinely hard for many of us to conceive of an “honest” or “principled” unionist position because those are two words that cannot be associated with Better Together in any way. So when the SNP, which has done a decent job in government and has tried to encourage a more positive self-image for Scotland, slips into the spin game, many people will defend it because it’s all they’ve got left to believe in, politically.
“Anybody is welcome from any walk of life that has accomplished something, here and now, or over many years, from the guy that looks after the municipal toilets telling us of all the incidents and happenings, to a Nobel prize winner relating how he became obsessed with discovering whatever.”
So we’re agreed?
lets do it. eh…
🙂
Yes the Side who claim that our oil is well into decline can’t have it both ways. If it forms a smaller part of the economy then a price fall can have less effect. Plus as an oil importer the drop in oil price is beneficial. It’s not rocket science.
I don’t like this talk of surplus and deficit though. A government deficit is not only normal, it is desirable. If the govt sector is running a surplus, then the non-government sector is running a deficit and is being drained of its assets. Where a sovereign currency issuing govt like the UK can never default, the private sector – like in 2008 can and inevitably will once again.
Most western governments in the 1940s onwards ran huge deficits until the time of financial deregulation in the 80s when the monetarists took over and declared that the government is akin to a household. The inflation of the 70s was blamed on govt spending (with no empirical evidence) whilst ignoring the effect of the oil shocks at the time. It has been all down hill since for the vast majority of the private sector.
So it is imaddening speaking to those Tory boomers who benefited from these huge deficits who want to deprive us of a future.
So I have and always will campaign for Scotland to have a Scottish currency. When people laugh and proclaim that Scotland will run continuous deficits, I nod in approval because it’s a good thing.
Unionists have priority on every press website available and have compromised every one of them. Independence supporters have been deleted and banned frequently.
Wings is different. Keep it that way. Or it will be compromised. The success of Wings depends on banning Unionists.They would be delighted if it failed.
@The Man in the Jar says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:25 pm:
“And there’s your problem. not living in Scotland you miss so much of the detail”.
The real point, Man in the Jar, is that sensibledave is a total numptie. He neither understands how to debate nor what he is commenting upon. Where the Rev Stu quotes a source for his argument, then quotes the figures and ends by interpreting/explaining the relevant figures.
Yon sensibledave gadgie simply says something like, “I read the SNP’s statement and it is all lies”. No specific figures, no explanation of, (what sensibledave), understands of them. Just an idiotic claim they are all lies. That’s the kind of argument you get out of four year olds in the nursery play area.
The numptie is attempting to treat us as four year olds with childlike arguments. Much like the businessman mentioned by the Rev Stu.
“. But the whole “second class MPs” rhetoric is silly and doesn’t get us anywhere. Derek Bateman said much the same thing the other day, and no-one is doubting HIS Nat credentials, so let’s all relax on that one”
That’s nice. But you answered your own point with
“If they wanted to make a principled case about how this effectively prevents a Scot from becoming PM or Chancellor ever again, I’d be fine.”
So no one in Scotland standing in Scottish polling booths, will ever see a Scottish UK.gov Prime Minister from a Scottish constituency and so on and that doesnt mean second class Scotland at Westminster?
Maybe a future Labour UK.gov will change EVEL a wee bit, one day, like in 97 when they said vote Blair and Brown for HoL reform.
Wonder why the whole UKOK media propaganda machine buried it all.
Kenny @ 7.46
ok ok ok
Sensibledave we respect your veiws,
now can we shoot him?
yesindyref2 says:
sensibledave might not have a vote, but the 10 to 1 ratio or whatever it is who read but don’t post, are going to wonder what on earth they would be doing joining with people who call everyone who disagrees with them, trolls.
Ruby replies:
It worked for the NO Campaign did it not?
Cybernats, anti-English bigots, cult followers, tartan moonies, Brigadoon dreamers, economic illiterates, wee troll over Bath, etc etc etc
The people who are reading and not posting could equally be asking what kind of wimps are these people who allow others to call them names and they say nothing.
Frankly I think nicey nicey Nicola with her be nicey nicey cyberniceynats makes people look pathetic and weak!
Who would want to join people who cower in the corner with their wee lips trembling when they are being bullied?
link to tinyurl.com
What are supposed to say to the above. Aren’t they good singers?
Robert Peffers 7.40
… The reason I didn’t reference anything specifically is because we did all that last Friday. Do try and keep up. Go and read about EVEL on the SNP website and come back and tell me which paragraphs are correct – that will be a much shorter conversation. Whoever wrote it was either devoid of any knowledge of the subject or lying through their teeth.
Maybe, to save time, just read the last couple of examples about the English NHS and Heathrow – then come back and tell me how EVEL could possibly achieve what the author suggests it might.
Reporting Scotland tonight on about the police and how they must save money but no mention about the Police Scotland’s £23million VAT bill which London will not scrap,also,I see Baillie on about the white elephant of the Glasgow Caledonian University New York that woman is a disgrace to the Labour party.
@sensibledave says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:28 pm:
” … Ah but, my objective view is objective …”
and … that’s the difference Bob.Can you give me an example of bad SNP policy or lies Bob?”
The point, sensibledave is that your opinion of your own objectivity is farce. You have no objectivity and your present comments prove that beyond doubt.
You simply claimed you found the SNP statements to be lies. No specific points, no figures, no references and no proofs. Just your claim they told lies in your opinion
Ruby @8.03
Agree, the time for being nice has passed.
The Rev came out of the corner swinging and k.o.’d brillo.
More of same is needed, no voters or not – people appreciate strength and resolve, it wins them over more than reasoned argument sometimes.
For goodness sake I forgot to include Nazis & fascists in the list of names used by the “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ in order to win the referendum.
Calling someone a troll really pales in comparison to being called a racist, a nazi, a fascist!
Robert Peffers 8.15
I repeat, we already did a point by point analysis of the relevant page Robert. Do you really want to do it all again?
O/T
Scott @ 8.10 pm.
No mention either about the recent vote in the House of Commons, this week I think, in which a motion to exempt Police Scotland from VAT in line with other police forces was defeated.
The Herald ran the story in today’s edition, minus any mention of VAT liability, but did not put it on-line. Too afraid of the comments that would have pointed out that the shortfall was in large part due to them having to pay VAT. Nor did they mention the vote in HoC.
@Ruby
Before Better Together started up, support for Independence was less than 30%. By the time they finished, it was 44.7%.
In the time since then, with the “Nasty party”, “nationalism”, all the rest of it, support for Indy has grown to around 50%.
I hope they keep it up, right the way to Indy being over 60% and rising.
@sensible. You say you went through all your points, with references, last Friday.
Uunless I’m in some dimensional timewarp construct of one of the rev’s vid games then today is this Thursday and you are still bleating SNP bad.
Pointing out the rather obvious that, due to EVEL, Scottish MPs (that is any MP representing a Scottish seat) can now no longer realistically be an Office bearer in a UK Government or Shadow relegates Scots MPs and the electorate who elect them to second class in a supposedly UNITED KINGDOM.
Back on topic, well done Stu on a brilliant disection.
@yesindyref2
“Totally disagree.”
That’s fine and dandy. Good for you.
“At least sensibledave says what he is…”
Sorry, I must have missed that. What does he say that he is?
“The way to get people to move across is not to call them trolls…”
If a troll is obvious I’ll call it out as a troll. It can then be agreed upon or not. If it’s not I won’t.
“…or anyone who disagrees with us [as] trolls”
No, absolutely, disagreement is fine. But there’s disagreement, and there’s ‘disagreement’. One can be countered, or not, with discussion held with a reasonable amount of respect for each other’s viewpoint. The other is done deliberately to sow discord BTL.
“…it’s sensible debate, and if a sensible point is made, then answer it, coolly and calmly, or with passion, whatever is your way.”
His name might include ‘sensible’, but if you truly believe he is here for sensible debate and to make sensible points then, well…..
“sensibledave might not have a vote, but the 10 to 1 ratio or whatever it is who read but don’t post, are going to wonder what on earth they would be doing joining with people who call everyone who disagrees with them, trolls.”
I have no problem people coming here to debate, not at all… If they are here to debate and not troll.
For some reason you believe sensibledave to be a straight-as-a-die, no bullshitting, inquisitive Unionist here only to open our eyes to ‘the other side’, or, at least, be considerate of it. Ah well, good luck with that.
Maybe just for a moment ask yourself why a Britnat Unionist would join what is to them an enemy, a pro-Scottish independence blog/website, and the ultimate one at that. What for? To make us aware of our pro-indy. sins, repent, see the Unionist light and beg for mercy…? To have some light-hearted banter…? To say that we are right, he has been wrong all along, and can we please forgive him before he rushes up to Scotland to get on the voting register for Indyref2…? To have everyone exchanging witticisms while extoling the greatness of our better togetherness, singing Kumbaya and pledging friendships forever…? Whatever. Have yourself a wee think about it.
“But I enjoy your postings.”
Hook. Line. Sinker.