Wings Over Scotland

Oh dear, here we go again. Reading the article, the poor put-upon fan still doesn’t seem to get it (and neither obviously does the Sunday Heil). “Paul” claims simultaneously that his career could have been wrecked because he broke this law, yet also claims that there are other laws under which he could have been convicted anyway!

Which all amounts to special pleading and an implied “I would have got away with this kind of thing before so why can’t I now?”

Which is the bottom line. If the available law had been properly enforced before, this kind of thing would be history by now. But no thanks to that stalwart idit Kelly, sectarianism is now finally being challenged. And high time too.

The media hate the OBFA because it has an effect on how they promote the Scottish game via hate and bigotry.

They have ALWAYS stirred up the religious angle because they know it sells copy.

It is no co-incidence the Daily Record is called “The Daily Ranger” AND “The Daily Rhebel” at the same time.

Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.

Seems to bear out the old adage:
A Liberal is a Tory who’s been arrested.

By his reasoning, it would be unfair to arrest one or two shoplifters if they were in a group of a hundred all stealing at once.

Suddenly, alternatives to a custodial sentence and a criminal record are paramount. I wonder which branch of law he intends to practice.

It’s insane to repeal this law.
For good or ill it’s there now…. everyone knows it’s there,and how to avoid breaking it.

To repeal it, is to all intents and purposes declaring that we (society/government) were, wrong to address this issue and that this behaviour ….on second thoughts…is perfectly legal after all.
Now that can’t be right…can it?

I would actually personally like to see the law in Scotland go much farther.
With a view to addressing the behaviour at the time,and,en mass.
But without clogging up the justice system and costing “the people” any money.

The aim of the law should be to cost “Ra people and the Bhoys” time and money.
The new law’s could be created and be creative in and around the game.

EG…A mandatory 3 minutes or longer stoppage, signalled by the authority of the match commander when these songs are heard!
Apart from disrupting the flow of the game for everyone….it could really mess with transport if linked to a significant wating over time charges for the buses.
A charge that will need to be picked up by the traveling fan’s.
Also to prevent (if it’s a concern) this behaviour being used to stop the play to influence the results.
Mibbi a two strikes and is a goal for the other side policy?
Something like that could cost a club a title and the revenue that goes with it.

The aim of this ?…..To “encourage”the club’s to do more,and to get the fan’s to self censure.
Not forgetting helping to prevent those ” poor poor innocent ” fan’s getting a criminal record,by breaking the law that we weren’t stupid enough to remove in the first place.

A clear signal from the Scottish electorate through their government….Up with this we will not put!

Spot on piece again Rev Stu.

Sick to the back teeth of all bigotry. So embarrassed by all of it. Detest idiots like Labours James Kelly; no more than an opportunist numpty. Cant get my head around old firm fans ‘United’ attempts to bin this legislation, wreckless madness of the highest order.
Was a fan of the old firm once and thought they were emerging from the swamp and evolving towards more normalized tribal rivalry traditions; it will never happen whilst remaining part of this discredited ‘Unionist’ political construct called GB.

Rangers and the Orange connection are by far the worst in my opinion but plenty of idiots on the Celtic side also.
Would be delighted to see the back of both for the sake of our football in the long run. (Never thought I’d write that in the past). Grow up folks and support your local team.

The North British Media really is an irresponsible industry in its entirety. Only a handful (at most) of decent writers & commentators, the rest hacks of the worst sensationalist order, with only a juvenile sense of care for the readers.

Binning this legislation would be real folly and cuddling right up to true blue Brexit ideology. Typical Daily Record & Sunday Mail. Never finish David Clegg’s guff.

The Sunday Herald front page story about the ludges fancy dress proclivities is even more eyebrow raising. Truly shocking but not entirely surprising concerning these cretins.

Cat Boyd, the radical Scottish left’s most talented rapper*, revealed on Sunday Politics Scotland that she voted for Jeremy Corbyn at the general election. Annoyingly, I’ve no idea what constituency she lives in so I can’t tell you whether she managed to get a “narrow-minded careerist” elected or not.

Cat Boyd: Jeremy Corbyn has my spiritual vote, but he simply cannot win this election
23rd May 2017

Some problems aren’t anything to do with Corbyn, but instead represent British institutions he can’t shift despite his best efforts. Take Trident. Nobody can question his commitment to the issue. But the media establishment, and the Labour establishment, are committed British nationalists who want a Security Council seat on the cheap.

link to thenational.scot

* No harm meant to Loki, btw, who also voted for the hard brexit, pro-Trident Labour party, and can’t rap for toffee either.

‘Paul’ go off scotfree and didn’t destroy his Law degree. After breaking the Law. Just like thon Findlay for singing racist songs. Ruining the Scottish economy on a weekly basis. Costing taxpayers £Billions of wasted monies. Unlawful criminal behaviour supporting illegally bigotry and hatred. What has sport got to do with it? Private Sports clubs totally in debt after appalling mismanagement. Expecting public money to bail them out. Illegally getting public money to bail them out. Total hypocrites. They expect public sympathy. Unlikely. Mucking up the majority lives and causing inconvenience. An affront to others,

The Police guarding racist, hooligan bigots every week. Instead of objecting to the illegal behaviour and objecting to the Marches. Complaining they have not got enough public money. Banned in most of Scotland. A bigoted, racist malicious, unequal, secret society taking over the streets every other week. Ruining the Scottish economy. Tax evaders and wasters not paying their taxes but being supported by £Billions of public money for Unionist votes at Westminster. All totally illegal. Westminster Unionists once again breaking the Law. Not supporting the society or community.

The troll CA has been on the Herald defending the imcompetent, useless Tories. Another Tory liar.

Rather than campaigning to repeal the OBFA would it not be better if The Branch Office’s PoliticaL Fireball James Kelly came up with amendments to the act to cure what he sees as its defects.

Or does he not see any problems with crowd behaviour at football matches?

Of course as must be obvious to any sentient being his agenda is just the usual Labour SNPbad nonsense.

@joannie says:16 July, 2017 at 12:13 pm:

“Maybe I need one of these sectarian workshops too because I don’t see anything wrong with singing The Boys of the Old Brigade. Unless it has different connotations when sung in Scotland than it does here its merely a song celebrating Irish independence.”

The song is about the IRA, Joannie and here is the official version of the lyrics – do you, perhaps, think this is the version sung by the Celtic fans?

In any case, before Ireland was partitioned, the fighting was civil war and both sides were parts of the United Kingdom. Then came, “The Irish Free State”, which was legally a United Kingdom Dominion and thus still part of the United Kingdom.

Since the Irish Free State declared UDI and became a Republic then the IRA were fighting in Northern Ireland and that makes them terrorists.

Now none of that justifies the UKs armed forces going far beyond what reasonable people would call, “Peace Keeping”, and in both cases the celebration of past violence and killing cannot be justified.

One group of football supporters glorifying the killing of Catholics at the Battle of the Boyne and the Other glorifying the killing o,f not just Protestants but also any innocent non-religious members of the public who happened to be in the way makes neither football team’s supporters any better than the other’s.

Not to mention that these two teams are Irish playing in the Scottish Leagues. Berwick Rangers are an English team that plays in the Scottish leagues but you don’t hear them singing about killing the Scots at Culloden do you?

“Oh father why are you so sad
on this bright easter morn
when Irishmen are proud and glad
of the land where they were born
Oh son I see sad memories
of far off distant days
when being just a lad like you
I joined the IRA !

Where are the lads who stood with me
when histoy was made
Ó grá mo chroí, I long to see
The boys of the old brigade

From hills and farms the call to arms
was heard by one and all
and from the glens came brave young men
to answer Ireland’s call
twas long ago we faced the foe
the old brigade and me
by my side they fought and died
that Ireland might be free

Where are the lads who stood with me
when histoy was made
Ó grá mo chroí, I long to see
The boys of the old brigade

and now my boy I’ve told you why
on easter morn I sigh
for I recall my comrades all
from the dark old days gone by
I think of men who fought in glens
with rifles and grenade
may heaven keep the men who sleep
from the ranks of the old brigade “

In some ways, we knew this was coming. Many of us highlighted it over the last 3 or 4 years that eventually, Scotland would fall into 2 camps – nationalist and unionist …and it is no surprise that the media bang out the ‘British’ ideology on a daily basis. But as said …we knew this was coming, and no we are right in the heart of it. How it will all pan out over the next few years is still up for debate. But the Westminster political Establishment are definitely throwing the kitchen sink at us at the moment.

Theresa May’s deal with the DUP actually shows us just how far that (a) how desperate the British State is getting if it is getting into bed with those deluded far-right wing lunatics, and (b) that it has lost a tremendous amount of influence in Scotland that it has to go to levels of televising Orange Walks on the BBC as well as trying to make all things surrounding Orange traditions as though they were just a form of normality.

Simply, they are not, and I got an example of it last Saturday.

I was out on a works do last weekend (someone leaving the company), and amongst our contingent was a member of staff who has been a strong advocate of the ‘Remain’ side back in 2014. Inevitably, our paths crossed and the old debates arose once more. Having highlighted that since 2014, that every Unionist argument had been shown up to be a lie or a broken promise, the argument came to a resounding and startling stop when he exclaimed ‘I’m a Scottish Protestant!’

To which I replied, ‘Aye, and so am I …so what? What’s that got to do with what we were discussing?’

His answer was ‘Well, you ken what I’m talking about. Simply put, I’m not changing my ways; it’s as simple as that.’

And there you have it. Scottish political debate summed up in 4 words – ‘I’m a Scottish Protestant!’. When pushed on it, he confirmed that he likes the Orange Order.

Deciding to cut to the heart of it and end this nonsense once and for all, I asked one simple question – ‘Mate …that being the case, one simple question and please answer it because I’m curious …has the Orange Order benefitted your life in any way, shape or form? Tell me one positive thing that the Orange Order has done for you …personally. Has it benefitted you …yes or no? Answer the question’.

The conversation literally ended at that point. Apart from a telling look in the eyes that answered that question for me, I was then told ‘Jamesie, get tae f***. Dinnae f****** start. Ah’m no answering ye, but aye it has’.

Knowing I had him, I badgered him further on it by asking him to answer the question and how it had benefitted him, but all I got was more denial to the question with no answers. But that question had rattled him, and I knew it had provoked him to question his own outlook. And even though he knows the answer deep down, he will also deep down never change.

This is one of the 30% of Scots who will never advocate independence or deny the Union …no matter how much his outlook is poisoned by it. He’s one of those that no matter how much you drag him into the light, they scurry back off into the darkness where ignorance is like a comfort blanket. In his eyes, the blame is elsewhere. Its better to target other people of different faiths, colour, alternative politics and even enlightenment …than admit that all the problems that seem to antagonise and infuriate him …are actually solely down to himself and a Union that endorses and promotes sectarianism, division, lies and apathy.

That’s one of the real legacies of this Union that we all live under.

RE the Dunkirk story and the impending deluge of stiff upper lip triumphalism about a humiliating defeat I posted a comment a couple of weeks ago questioning the necessity of evacuation.

I suggested that as they had the capability of evacuating 300k plus was it not possible that the same resources used to carry out the evacuation could have with the overwhelming superiority of The RN over The Kriegsmarine established an effective defensive perimeter around Dunkirk together with reinforcing and supplying it.

The evacuation freed the German forces involved to fight The French Army and hastened the French collapse.

Without these extra divisions France may have been able to fight on.

In my post I questioned why nobody seems to have ever suggested that the evacuation could have been avoided and asked if anybody had views on my suggestion.

However, nobody commented other than several comments regarding the disgraceful sacrifice of The 51st. Highland Division at St. Valery.

I would like to know if anybody shares my thoughts re examining the possible avoidance of the ‘triumphant’ evacuation.

As the abandonment of Churchill’s disastrous Norway campaign coincided with the start of the German offensive on May 10th where were the forces evacuated from Norway at the time of Dunkirk? – were they still in The UK or had they been rushed to Belgium/France.

@Gus1940,

Completely agree with the sentiment. The OBAF whilst not perfect, is better than what existed previously. Agree to amend it with the numbskulls propsing changes. The problem is that these neanderthals will vote on party lines, as always just to defeat the SNP.

Kelly is just playing to his audience. Ruthie baby will be forced to do the same now that she has the support of the LOL. Ruthie now has to keep happy her combination of supporters – the small “c” elderly voters, the traditional “I’m all right” jacks with the big “C” and now the LOL’ers with the “Union at all costs” mantra.

The act has majority support amongst the OF supporters, and overwhelming support amongst supporters of every other club in the country. Ironically, it is these “other” supporters who suffer disproportionately at the hands of the police.

The police historically think nothing of wading into a small crowd of one of the provincial clubs away from home yet are reluctant to do it to either of the big 2.

Ibrox / Parkhead are the only 2 grounds in the Scottish League which I refuse point blank to visit – Solely down to the way that visiting fans are treated and the attitude of some of their supporters towards us. It has been that way since the Fergus McCann years and will be for the foreseeable future.

@Peter. Edinburgh

I accept it seems to refer to the IRA of the Easter uprising in 1916, not the Provisional IRA of the modern era.

However, I see no place for songs about taking up “rifle and grenade” at a football match.

I’ve no comment to make on who HM Queen chooses to honour, as I never voted her head of state. Nor did I agree with the Scot Govt presumption that Scotland would have her as head of state if Scotland had voted YES in 2014.

Where and when it’s sung matters too. Fitba should be for fitba songs:

eg “it’s a grand auld team to play for..”

and

“He says to me: are you going to see the famous Glasow Rangers”.

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 1:09 pm:

” … And whilst the SNP government continue to allow Orange marches, then any suggestion that they wish to tackle sectarianism in this country, is taken with a huge pinch of salt.”

Utter anti-SNP/Scottish/Independence pish!

Replace singing offensive song at football match for using a mobile phone whilst driving in the following:-
“The police film fans with handheld cameras all the time but to pick me and a couple of others out of a crowd of thousands doing the same thing didn’t feel like justice to me. It felt random like bad luck.”
It’s called the criminal justice system and it exists partly in order to try to change negative behaviour that impacts on the lives of others.

heedtracker says:
16 July, 2017 at 1:36 pm

“I don’t get how he was police ID’d out of a crowd of 4000, he says. If the Mail creeps have left out how this one man was known to the police like this, or at least someone next to or nearby him in the crowd, there’s something very not right about this.

But it is the Mail reprobates so who knows.”

He says he was sitting beside the “Green Brigade”, who, as I understand it, start off a lot of the singing. They want to link supporting Celtic with Ireland’s Independence and the troubles.
I suspect, he got filmed starting off some of the chants and that’s why he was singled out.

Colin Alexander. I take your point about that particular song being sung at a football game in Scotland. I don’t sing it at a football game, although I know it. But it shouldn’t be illegal to sing it as it is neither offensive nor sectarian.

Robert Peffers. Aye, very good.

The meeja and their bestest buds. Never let ethics or public safety get in the way of the next assault on the SNP.

Wonder if they’re aware in any way that these actions are precisely why they unfit for purpose?

The proposed repeal of this legislation is naked political opportunism.

No British nationalist politician, as far as I’m aware, has called on the UK government to repeal equivalent legislation created by Westminster which criminalises the glorification of terrorist organisations and which has been in existence for significantly longer than the OBAF.

The fact that the Act creates a statutory offence in relation to behaviour which may be captured by existing common law offences is hardly an argument for repeal. There are countless statutory offences which replicate, in part or in whole, existing common law offences and legislated for by both UK and Scottish Governments.

When push comes to shove there is no obvious and justifiable reason why the legislation requires to be repealed.

Robert Peffers @ 1.52
An interesting proposition Robert..

Also….How about getting Glasgow City Council to remove the right of both these club’s to be called GLASGOW anything?

They both fly the flags and chant the politics and folklore of other countries!

And before anyone says anything, the Union flag is not a Scottish flag.
There’s even a song about that too….

{There always be an England… apparently this is what the red white and BLUE should mean to you!}

But seriously the Union flag is exactly that the flag of the Union..no Scotland,and football teams don’t play as a Union.
So what is that flag doing there?

Don’t get me started on the other one….we are no even on the same island….and the Union we are in with the Irish is the EU….so while the colour is a bit closer, even that flag’s no Scottish.
Patient the name Glasgow and keep it from both those embarrassments of a sports club!

Time better spent at the moment than banning Kultural marches, because that’s a thread that doesn’t need pulled.
Unless ye wouldn’t mind a bit of bother.
Jist mind that after a yes vote there is NAE Union.
They hiv nae Church in Scotland that will claim them (as far as I know).
The battle’s no a Scottish wan.
In short nothing but “because we have always done it” to actually march for.
After a few years they marches will become as much a part of Scotland as Morris Dancing is in England.
Our own culture and commemorations will be front and center of what fills our streets
Not whatever the hell played out between England and Ireland 4 bloody centuries ago.

I’ve never had a view on the OFBA, but as for the song about the Easter rising, here’s two verses sung at football / rugby matches:

“O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward’s army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again”

and

“O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On thee our hopes we fix:
God save the Queen. “

The solution is simple. When these knuckle draggers start singing their songs of hate, the broadcaster should stop broadcasting the match, and a simple message appear on the screen explaining why the transmission has been interrupted, and that they would resume the programme when the evil chanting abated.
This fictitious ‘case study’ of Paul the Proddy University educated future lawyer who supports the Sellick and got caught up innocently in a crowd of drunken bums at an away match at Kilmarnock was written by Kelly or some zealous lackey back at Project SNP BAD HQ.
It has the fingerprints of Roden of the Mail all over it.
The Sunday Mail is a rag of the first order now.
How many times will they publish photies of Griffiths advertising Buckfast the bevvy of choice of the thug, hooligan and all round fascist bigot?
The Dead Tree Scrolls in Scotland now sell tomorrow’s toilet paper. They have trawled the sewers of Scotland and glorify gangsters, murderers, fascists, and evil bigots, and take every opportunity to plant photies of political failures, and all round Gravy Train trash like James Kelly at every opportunity.
Kelly and the rest of the Unionist rag bag are out to destabilise parliamentary business in Scotland. Nobody gives a fuck what Kelly, WATP Tomkins, and Murdo The Queen’s Eleven Fraser, three unelected Hangers On, think, except the Dead Tree Scrolls and the scribe whores who churn out this garbage.
Nicola Sturgeon was in Europe this week doing the ‘day job’, protecting Scottish citizens rights, and making sure our voice is being heard despite Dugdale Rennie and Davidson ignoring the political will of the people, and selling us out to England and the London Establishment.
This snivelling little wimp is a despicable wee toerag, darling of the Gutter Blahs and BBC.
The OBF law is a good law if it only gets on Kelly’s tits, if you ask me.

Liz g. Celtic do not have Glasgow in their name! Again, the ignorance of people making comments on this issue.

@ Jack Collatin

When Meg merrilees commented that it was disturbing that a final year law student had to go on a course to find out tht he had been doing something illegal, my first thought was that we had no evidence this person actually existed – his identity was being “protected” by calling him only Paul.

@ JLT 1:34pm

Absolute belter of a post. And so bang on the money. Well said and good for you in challenging your sectarian pal with those soul searching questions.

@Liz g
Absolutely.

Yes, if BPC had stopped at the border things might be very different!

Liz g. Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of this issue. The Act is not about being AT football. It does not restrict itself to an incident AT football.

Divide and Conquer is the way the British Establishment work to maintain their grip on power and wealth.

Sectarianism is a Divide and Conquer tool of the British Establishment.

This is why they want the repeal of the OBFA.

This is the reason ‘Rangers’ couldn’t be allowed to fail (how can you foster division if there is only one side?)

If you make Sectarianism as socially unacceptable as racism or domestic violence you remove a tool from the British Establishments ‘box of tricks’

Another day of SNP BAD, in the same vein as the Named Person ‘outrage’ from Right Wing, flat earth home schoolers so joyously pushed by Liz Smith and the MSM/BBC.

Those who would vote for repealing the OBFA rather than amending it give one message and one message alone.

I, “Insert Name”, Member of the “Insert Name of Political Party” and Member of the Scottish Parliament, support Offensive Behaviour at Football including the singing of songs glorifying murder due to different religious beliefs and any Violence caused as a result of this behaviour at or following these football matches.

Alwyn ap Huw. Once again, this Act is not about sectarianism.

Peter Edinburgh @ 3.33
Again your arrogance that only those with some sort of detailed knowledge of these two clubs and their issues,that meet your imaginary standards can comment with any creditability is breathtaking sir!
They are referenced as Glasgow team’s are they no?
If that’s no self referencing by the club themselves doesn’t really matter for the purpose of Glasgow disowning both of them now does it.
Nobody surely, has to find these two clubs and their “issues” with what they are as part of the entertainment industry actually for,remotely interesting.
To comment on how they impact society,as I am sure you can agree.
I have previously indicated on other threads that I know absolutely nothing about football it’s self.
And I am unlikely to change that while there is still wet paint in the world.
My comments are based on being a grown up, discussing a”Game”,a game that to be perfectly honest,if I was helping to fund the violence and everything else that the fan’s help to pay for,I would find another Game.

I think it would be helpful to set the OBFA in a context:

It has been designed to try and tackle sectarianism, bigotry, whatever you want to call it.

There was pressure to be seen to be doing something about this cancer in Scottish society.

Nil By Mouth (referred to in the article) was set up to educate people to try and reduce sectarianism and bigotry following the brutal and unprovoked murder of a young innocent Celtic supporter called Mark Scott in Brigton, Glasgow in 1995. All he was doing was walking home from a Celtic game.

Peter Edinburgh @ 4.04
It’s no the offending Behaviour at the dug show Peter noo is it ?

@ Peter. Edinburgh

” LORD ADVOCATE’S GUIDELINES ON THE OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOUR
AT FOOTBALL AND THREATENING COMMUNICATIONS (SCOTLAND)
ACT 2012
Purpose
The objective of the offences provided for in this Act is to tackle sectarian hatred and other offensive and threatening behaviour related to football matches and to prevent the communication of threatening material,
particularly where it incites religious hatred. The primary but not sole
motivation for the offences concerns football. “

Yesindyref2 @ 4.26
No song’s should be banned.
And I don’t think that any are, it’s the time and a place thing….
And the what’s appropriate at a certain point in history,we (Scotland) seem to not to want to tolerate the sectarianism that this act “”isn’t””about any way …any more,and support our government in the steps they have taken so far.
As is our right.
Many things are unacceptable now that used to be fine not that long ago.
But as Jockanesewindtalker farther up said this is one of the master’s tools,so there will be push back.
As for our rights well em..
Bringing your Government within slapping distance…is it no obvious?

Colin Alexander. This was trotted out the last time this issue was discussed here. That is not the Act. The Act does not include the words sectarian and sectarianism.

Peter Edinburgh @ 4.39
Well then Peter you do not hope in vain..
Rest assured that I have all the knowledge that I need to discuss the impact on society of a Game.
I can easily weight up the cost to the tax payers, Scotland’s reputation,woman and children and the dugs in the street,of doing nothing.

But why……on my way to a football match (assuming that I have witnessed the much more interesting sight of all the paint in the world being dry) would I also go to a dug show?

It’s it at all possible Peter, that you are attempting to discuss a dug show and you don’t know anything at all about them?
As in is no something ye do on the way tae the game!!!

Ach,well don’t worry about it…me either!

Jim Kelly is an idiot. Blinded by his jealous hatred of the SNP he thinks that scrapping the act & doing nothing is the way to address sectarianism. Idiots like him we do not need anywhere near any kind of decision making, I wouldn’t trust him to put his own shoes on nevermind have any say on law making and social attutides.

Liz g. I assume football fans go to dug shows. If one, on the way to a football match, popped into the local dug show and sang, for whatever reason, Boys of the Old Brigade, they can be arrested and charged under this Act.

Funnily enough, should they pop into the dug show and sing this very same song, in front of the very same people, and dugs, when there is no football on, they will not be arrested and charged under this Act.

@Vronsky says: 16 July, 2017 at 2:29 pm

“I can’t find any fault in ‘Boys of the Old Brigade’ that I couldn’t find in any Scottish Jacobite song. I’m also uneasy about the criminalisation of offensive behaviour.”

Then you do not know your history, Vronsky, and you have no idea of what constitutes offensive behaviour.

In 1688 the Parliamentarians of the Kingdom of England. (That is the country of England, the English Kingdom’s Principality of Wales, (1284) and the English Kingdom’s province of Ireland, (1542), rebelled against their rightful monarch.

That Scottish monarch had also worn the independent crown of the Kingdom of Scotland since 1603 but that Scottish Kingdom had remained independent with its own independent parliament since 1603. The Kingdom of England falsely still claims as, “The Union of the Crowns” but you cannot have a Union of the Crowns when the two Kingdoms remained independent until the Treaty of Union of 1606/7.

The English call this rebellion of their Parliament of England, “The Glorious Revolution”, but it was indeed a real rebellion by the Parliament and a revolution against the monarch of England but the Kingdom of Scotland was still independent until the forced Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

Thus the Jacobites could not be rebels as they could not rebel against a monarch not their own.

Simply put – as the two kingdoms were still fully independent but just happened to have their individual independent crowns sat upon the same person’s head, (due to a centuries old Marriage of Convenience of two children). Thus when England took the crown from that monarch’s head they had not the sovereignty to also take away the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

The people of Scotland had gained that legal sovereignty in 1320 by the Holy Roman Se, (The then accepted international authority of the European Christendom).

This legal acceptance of Scotland’s independence included the acceptance that the Scottish monarch’s role was as the Protector of the People’s Sovereignty. Thus the Scottish Monarch could not give to the Kingdom of England a Scottish sovereignty the monarch, to this day, does not legally have.

So these are the real facts. The so called Jacobite Rebellion was impossible to be a rebellion as the parliament of Scotland had not deposed their monarch and the, “Glorious Revolution”, of England was obviously a real rebellion as they not only deposed their monarch but installed the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange as the monarchs of the Kingdom of England while Scotland was still independent.

So now you can see that the so called Jacobite Rebellion was actually a war between two independent Kingdoms and the proof of that is The Treaty of Union of 1707. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if there was a Union of the Crowns in 1603?

Now as to the Irish case. The Holy Roman Se appointed the King of England as, “Lord of Ireland”, and in 1542 the King of England made the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, making the English Monarch the King of Ireland. That made all Ireland an English Province.

So the Irish situation was that the South of Ireland rebelled against their monarch and the original fighting was a civil war because both sides in the conflict were still parts of the United Kingdom.

Then the Westminster Parliament instigated, “The Irish Free State”, that state was a United Kingdom Dominion so both sides were still from the United Kingdom and that was still civil war.

The Irish Free State, (in Irish: Hailstát Éireann), ran as a UK Dominion from 1922 until 1937. So still both sides killing each other were parts of the UK – so still a Civil War.

In 1937 the Irish Free State declared, unilaterally, that it was no longer a UK Dominion and became, “The Republic of Ireland”, at which point the IRA, in Northern Ireland, became terrorists fighting for a foreign country.

There is absolutely no comparison between the IRA and the Jacobites who were truthfully fighting for their own monarchy in, and for, their own independent Kingdom.

Care to prove me wrong, Vronsky? You quite obviously believe the Westminster Establishment’s false history and their centuries of obvious lies.

So can you dispute any of the facts I stated or not?

Peter Edinburgh @ 5.14
That’s kinda what I’ve been saying Peter.
This is a time and a place and in context thing.
It’s an issue specific to football and so is only linked to attending football.
I would say that this is correct and I don’t need to know a thing about football to hold that position.
I only need to be convinced that there is in fact an issue that requires legislation and that the legislation is not to wide reaching,as in including the dug show’s.
You surely can’t say nothing needed done?
And also that Scotland should now send the message that it’s now ok to behave like this,that it was a mistake, it’s all perfectly legal now?
Please note that I am not ever against improving the legislation,but to repeal it no.
Any protection of my freedom of speech should I think come from as I have said keeping the government answerable to the people.

@Walking on Sunshine says: 16 July, 2017 at 2:58 pm:

” … ‘The Boys of the Old Brigade’ is an Irish republican folk song written by Paddy McGuigan about the Irish Republican Army and the Irish War of Independence, (1919-1921), and the anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising.”

You do know, or do you? That between 1919 and 1921 both sides fighting each other were United Kingdom citizens?

The Republic of Ireland was only a result of Unilateral Declaration of Southern Irish Republicanism in 1937.

The so called, (by Westminster), Anglo-Irish Treaty could not be an Anglo-Irish anything because both signatories were parts of the United Kingdom and you cannot sign a treaty with yourself.

It was an agreement by Westminster to accept that Southern Ireland was a Republic but it sure as hell was not a treaty of union between two different countries or kingdoms because the whole of Ireland became a part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland act. There was thus no Kingdom of Ireland in 1937 to become part of the United Kingdom because it was already made part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 and thus became part of the United Kingdom in 1707.

@Peter.Edinburgh

The Act refers to ethnic or national origins, religion or social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation etc

I think that’s how sectarian is defined. Though it covers more than sectarianism ( I think in Scotland it’s usually is regarded as Catholic/Protestant , Republican / Loyalist sympathies.)

link to legislation.gov.uk

@yesindyref2

I was just joking about the song being banned. Everybody has different tastes in music.

If you like it, then enjoy yersel.

Personally, Seven Drunken Nights is my favourite Dubliners song.

—————–
@ people in general

What songs we enjoy in private is our own business, but common sense tells us it’s just asking for trouble to sing in public about the IRA, PIRA, UDA, UVF, The Troubles etc.

@joannie
I agree with you there I think calling the war of independence a civil war in the UK is very wide of the mark, in fact verging on insulting, and the IRA in that song obviously refers to the old IRA and 1919-22. (Obviously a civil war within Ireland followed the war of independence but was that not between factions of the IRA?) In just about any country that has won its independence there are similar songs e.g FoS.

However the context of football is different and at that point I bow out because I know nothing about football, happy to be a Piscy and not give a toss about sectarianism. Even having these discussions on WoS stirs it up and that is exactly what the like of Davidson, Murphy and Kelly want to do, encourage sectarianism and division, because they think the more divisions there are in Scotland the better for their purposes which is to prevent independence at literally any cost.

Joannie 6.05
Couldn’t say for certain Joannie,as I don’t know anything about this song other than what has been said about it here today.
And I,as some will tell you (Peter mibbi) know even less about football.

But it seems to me that you have one crowd with an allegiance to another Country, standing in front of another crowd who think they are in their own country and need to support their army, saying that we’re remembering the heroes of our army that died when they gubbed your army,and flung your army out.
Kinda crazy….. I know…(try sectarian-splannin to a foreigner)!
But it’s the pointing out our army won in the country of the loosing army,to people who support said army,that I can see is offensive.
Even more so because the people doing it live under the protection of the army they are gloating over.
Hope that helps…. it’s how I make sense of it anyway.

Liz g. Allegiance to another country! Seriously?

Another day ,another whack at the SNP , the democratically elected government of scotland yet again is the target , when nothing else is going on drag the barrel for some more rubbish works every time for Unionists , they are easily pleased .
This wee spot in the limelight for Mr Kelly is the best he can do , he has managed to get enough unionists to support his dig at the SNP , not to improve the bill ,just to harm the government .
Well done him eh , a small minded labour placement who probably hasn’t had an original thought in his life , gee wizz what a bloody treasure we have uncovered here, we should be grateful, A beacon and a shining light, a true statesman in the Scottish Parliament .No Laughing at the back now , is this the best Labour can offer ?, god help us all . And we pay for this .

@Peter.Edinburgh

I spoke of common sense, but the reality is that in Scotland, there’s lots of bampots and usually they are out to cause trouble.

Lots of bampots are also football fans. These bampots tend to sing certain types of songs, not as a celebration of heritage or history but to wind up others and cause trouble.

Unfair, on decent football fans, but cos of the troublemakers everyone else is affected.

Maybe they could be addressed using other legislation, but as I’ve said, even innocent words can be used for offensive, hurtful intentions.

I did try starting to sing the words of Despacito to a small public the other day. Definitely offensive!

Yes, I agree basically, songs can be offensive in context, specially if accompanied by pointing, gesticulating and sneering or laughing. So by that token, though some songs are definitely offensive in themselves, others can be at the likes of football matches.

The ‘guidelines’ of all Acts are precisely what judges refer to when ascertaining the nature of the offence or legislation being utilised to apply to the conduct of those who are charged under that ‘Act’.

To state that the word ‘sectarian’ is not in the written body of the Act and therefore the conduct of those who are in fact involved in being offensive to those from a different ‘religious’/ ‘race/s’ grouping than theirs, under this Act’s remit is a lie. The words sectarian are in those guidelines to ‘guide’ the judges in ‘ascertaining’ whether the said ‘offence/s’ fall under the remit of the Act itself.

Therefore sectarian conduct is very well covered by this Act. In fact this Act specifically ‘does’ address ‘sectarian’ behaviour at football matches:

‘Purpose

The objective of the offences provided for in this Act is to tackle sectarian hatred and other offensive and threatening behaviour related to football matches and to prevent the communication of threatening material, particularly where it incites religious hatred. The primary but not sole motivation for the offences concerns football. While the vast majority of supporters attend matches with the sole purpose of enjoying Scotland’s national game, there continues to be a bigoted and undesirable element who continue to sing and chant “sectarian” and other offensive verses. These offences are intended to help make Scotland safer and stronger, and contribute to tackling inequalities in Scottish society.’

Further:

‘It is intended to address the problem of offensive and threatening conduct, including singing and chanting, and the display of offensive flags and banners (in particular, those of a “sectarian” or racist nature) which are known to incite public disorder associated with football matches.’

Why would there be guidelines to any Act if not to ‘guide’ those charged with administering the law?

These guidelines are ‘intrinsic’ to the Act/s themselves.

Liz g (7:08pm)

I think the Rev’s punted his erse out of here for not heeding the warnings given out.

Thanks Stu. Those two were ruining the comment threads, if indeed they are not just one person.

@Socrates MacSporran says:
==================

Re your comment re Kilmarnock. We often see the wee clubs punished for things like this. But when a whole stand at Ibrox or Parkhead does it, nothing happens (or at most one or two guys are grabbed and charged). This is why the football authorities do nothing, they know that any actions they took about this would mostly affect the old firm and they are too feart to take them on.

@ Mike Cassidy at 6:32pm …. “Greens oppose OBF Act.”

Thanks for the link Mike and I see that Harvie says “The Scottish Greens believe that the Football Act unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression and is not the most effective means of addressing these concerns.”

Freedom of expression? I wonder if he’d change his tune if football fans took it up their humph to start singing songs about homosexuals / bisexuals?

Stu Mac @ 7.50
That’s what I was getting at earlier,Stu.
It would be unrealistic to arrest a whole stand full of people.
But perfectly possible to empower the police to interrupt the game.
And change the score or declare it void if the nonsense is held back till the end.
Wouldn’t be much fun to have to buy a ticket two or three times to get a decision about the outcome of a match.

Aye Valerie, he was at least ‘obvious’…his axe wis pre grinded from the last time he appeared, with the exact same rehearsed statements and assertions.

@Peter. Edinburgh says: 16 July, 2017 at 3:30 pm:

” … Celtic do not have Glasgow in their name! Again, the ignorance of people making comments on this issue.”

That’s because they are not a Scottish club and they fly the Irish Tricolour to prove it. You want their history, Peter?

I’ll tell you anyway. The Celtic Football Club was started up by
Andrew Kerins, better known by his religious name of Brother Walfrid, Born: May 18, 1840, in Ballymote in The Republic of Ireland. He Died: April 17, 1915, at Dumfries. He was Lay Brother of the Marist Brothers Order.

He was sponsored to do so by the already established and successful Hibernian FC that actually began life in Edinburgh and not as most think, Leith. It all began at St Patrick’s RC church in the Cowgate in Edinburgh and again by an RC Lay Brother.

St Patrick’s Church in the Cowgate founded a Catholic Young Men’s Society (CYMS) in 1865.The motive was because the Irish community was not being integrated into the wider Edinburgh community and Canon Edward Joseph Hannan looked for ways to achieve this.

Michael Whelahan, suggested to Canon Hannon that the CYMS should form its own football club and at a meeting on 6 August 1875, Hibernian F.C. was founded. Canon Hannon was its first manager and Michael Whelahan as its first captain.

All Hibs players had to be members of the CYMS and because of this Hibs have been accused of being the first sectarian football club in Scotland, (a charge commonly levelled at Rangers).

Hibs played charity matches in benefit of causes other than the Catholic Church, however, and Whelahan once said, “ We were both surprised and delighted at the invitation and can assure you that neither race nor religion were ever a consideration of Hibernian or the CYMS to help such a worthy cause. ”

During the first few years of their history, Hibs played their matches on The Meadows of the south side of Edinburgh and Hibs established themselves in Scottish football after overcoming some initial sectarian resistance to being an Irish club. A note from the Scottish Football Association stated that:-“ We are catering for Scotsmen, not Irishmen”. Funnily enough it was to be Hibs’ future rivals Hearts who did most to break down this bigoted resistance for hearts defied the rules which stated that no club should play matches against the Irish club.

Hearts provided the opposition in Hibs’ first match on Christmas Day 1875, which Hearts won 1–0 and with the persistence of Canon Hannan and Whelahan Hibs were eventually accepted by the governing bodies.

So in fact Hibs founders were the sponsors of the RC churches attempts to start a similar club in Glasgow and in fact the original name proposed for the Glasgow club was to be, “Glasgow Hibernians”.

Celtic were only one of the Scottish Clubs that were instigated by the Hibs and one such was Dundee.so there you go, “The Auld Firm”, were actually not the original, “Auld Firm”, for Hibs & Hearts beat then too that title. Another truth is that the Celtic Hoops were originally the Hibs official strip and It is believed that when Celtic first took to the pitch it was while wearing a set of the Hibs hooped jerseys.

Go look at the dates these teams were founded.

BTW: Historically the Worlds first recorded and documented Football Club began in Edinburgh and they played their games on the Meadows. The written Records of that club still exist. The Foot-Ball Club (active 1824–41) of Edinburgh, Scotland, is the first documented club dedicated to football, and the first to describe itself as a football club. The only surviving club rules forbade tripping, but allowed pushing and holding and the picking up of the ball. Other documents describe a game involving 39 players and “such kicking of shins and such tumbling”.

Ayep 🙂

Joannie @ 8.04
Yes I do know that Joannie….
I am not offering an opinion of the rights and wrongs of that.
I certainly think it’s perfectly possible to have some sort of allegiance to another Country or culture.
Our whole tourist industry depends on it.

I am just saying that in the park when Celtic is on the field the allegiance is to Ireland…..and well em Ireland is another Country.
To sing of another Countries military success, against the army of the people of the Country you are standing in front of is offensive.
As is singing of what you fantasise about doing to a large section of that other Country,or demanding some kind of repatriation, while ofcourse not thinking that one through.

But either way this has nothing to do with Scotland,and everything to do with taunting and offending the opposite crowd.
As to who benifits…..no the singer’s of the song’s that’s fur sure.
Anyhoo doesn’t Ireland it’s self no create a space in it’s own culture for rembering its military achievements ?
If this is a serious song of remembering,there are surely more appropriate places than a Glasgow football ground.
It’s is,it seems to me,a bit disrespectful to have it sung on the same occasions as the one about being up to the knees in someone’s blood!