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The terrible burden of volatility

Posted on March 01, 2018 by

What you’re missing:

That’s a single year’s profits. For a bit of perspective, it’s about four times the Scottish Government’s entire annual budget. Thank goodness we’ve had Westminster to manage our resources for us all this time, eh?

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594 to “The terrible burden of volatility”

  1. yesindyref2

    Yes, we do indeed need to hold out the hand of friendship. Here’s a quote from that conversation: “especially when the independence movements biggest asset is in charge, one Theresa May“.

    As we’ve said all along since the EU Ref, there is now no status quo, it’s a case of people choosing which change they prefer, or dislike the least.

  2. Orri

    Another scenario where you can take something back is if you have lent it.

    In fact it’s not unheard of for candidates in some elections to talk of voters lending them their vote/support.

    Mind you there’s places where voters can remove that support.

    At the moment Scotland’s people have at least 4 groups of elected representatives to exercise their sovereignty on there behalf.

    Independence from Westminster would consist of taking that part of our sovereignty currently lent to them.

  3. Robert Peffers

    @yesindyref2 says:2 March, 2018 at 3:54 pm:

    “Someone replied to my “but” posting in The National about oil, and my first reaction was to give it the “but but but” treatment. Problem is he has a point, and it is something we might have to address.”

    No he/she/they do not have a point. I knew that, long before oil was even dreamed about as being extractable from under the North Sea, the Scottish economy was robust enough to make Scotland a wealthy, fully independent, nation in its own right.

    I learned this from some extremely clever and inspirational Scottish Nationalists , and not all were SNP Members.

    While still a schoolboy I listened to such as Wendy Wood, Canon Kenyon Wright, Willie Wolfe, Willie MacRae, Winnie Ewing and the late Margo McDonnald, (to name but a few).

    I was also bright enough to go to Edinburgh libraries and other places to check out the claims being made.

    Quite simply an independent Scotland’s economy would suffice to provide a very good living for Scots and do so without even one drop of oil or one whiff of natural gas.

    Both of which commodities would provide a very handy bonus but would, factually, (according to McCrone’s report), probably cause a Scottish Currency to overheat. This is not a good thing but not nearly so bad as that of England’s that would nose dive without Scotland.

    Anyway the mechanisms to prevent such a fate are fairly well known as they have been used by Norway since Norway discovered oil & Gas in their waters. The trick is to use the oil & gas revenues as a bonus and build up an oil fund as the Danes have done. Not splurge it away as Westminster has done.

    Scotland is not too wee, too poor and too bloody stupid – well not so stupid as per that last claim and increasingly more Scots are slowly becoming less bloody stupid by learning the truth.

  4. louis.b.argyll

    The troll says,

    ‘So, we are leaving… that’s democracy.’

    Humility and friendship in one’s society precedes the right to boast about democracy. Tory England is in short supply of all four.

    Scotland is being rightly protectionist around our culture, which defines our industry, adding value to our exports.

    We can’t afford to (let the UK elite) throw that away.

    We must get independence before the next UK led disaster.

  5. Meg merrilees

    Captains log, Stardate Brexit minus 389days… to boldly go where no other country would want to go….

    I listened to this speech and to every thing she said, I thought HOW?

    “..Protecting our security and prosperity..” – How?

    “..strengthening our precioussssss union…” – How?

    “..existing models don’t provide a way forward..”- so how do we resolve that?

    “ hard border in N. Ireland and no hard border in the Irish sea..” – How can that work?

    ..must respect the sovereignty of both the UK and EU legal orders this means that the jurisdiction of the ECJ must end.”
    How will that work European workers rights?

    “Fairer deal for UK fishermen based on reciprocal access to waters and shared stocks management”
    with the example of fishing…No precedence exists for the type of trade it wants from the deal..
    How will that go down in the N East?

    ‘…Associate membership of the EU medicines agency…” FFS we had the agency here, in the UK, and it has gone now.

    “…A third tariff…”

    This is all nonsense!

    I have a theory that people often stumble when they are telling a lie…I notice that she stumbled several times in this speech and most noticeably about 26 minutes in when she almost said completely the opposite of her intended speech re the Hard Border in N. Ireland and had to stop, and make a point of re-stating what she had meant to say, clearly.

    I gave up before the end – she wants to be a member of the club without paying the membership fees.

  6. Davie Oga

    Dave Stewart
    What you see is a very complex amalgam of materials, services,transportation and manufacturing.
    If they don’t build a vehicle for the UK the materials can be used for another market.

    Now there is an actual sensible Dave. I would add that that not only will vehicles be sold elsewhere, but the UK aspect of the supply chain will be sourced elsewhere. This will be replicated through all sectors of the economy.

  7. Robert J. Sutherland

    Meg merrilees @ 10:22:

    [Mayhem:] “Fairer deal for UK fishermen based on reciprocal access to waters and shared stocks management” […]
    How will that go down in the N East?

    My question also.

    “Fairer deal”? Whit? All that lovely dreamed fishing free-for-all gone up in an instant wee puff of smoke. If you are paying attention anyway. To be traded-off yet again for English special interests.

    Fooled once, your bad. Fooled twice, my bad. Fooled thrice…?

  8. Robert Peffers

    @Breeks says: 2 March, 2018 at 3:55 pm:

    “The Court issue is securing International Recognition for our Sovereignty.”

    Really it isn’t Breeks as the modern ideas of sovereignty are far more realistic than ever before. Organisations such as the European Court of Human Rights, (Also Known as The World Court), have a very refreshing outlook on sovereignty. I’ve expounded upon it before now on Wings.

    It is written into such as the European Union rules for example and it is that any identifiable group of people, (they do not need to be an already established nation), have the inalienable rights of self determination.

    This human right is upheld by the European Court of Human Rights.

    The United Kingdom doesn’t stand a hope in hell of attempting to take the Scottish Government to The ECHR and winning its case. That is, though, if a majority of the people of Scotland can be shown by the SG to desire the freedom of self determination and that majority is getting closer every day.
    This Westminster BRUKEXIT looks very like the catalyst that will push that required majority over the finishing line – and the UKEXITeers are very, very aware that it is.

    I would not bet that the SG surveys have not signalled that as being so or I doubt they would chance taking the steps they are taking at Holyrood this week.

  9. Meg

    The full speech:

    About 30 minutes in: talking about regulatory standards to remain at least as high as the EU’s..

    31.30: ..this is particularly important for agriculture food and drinks.

    We’re leaving the CAP and will want to take the opportunities that brings to reform our agriculture and fisheries management.

    31.43: We will also be leaving the CFP ….
    we will want to continue to work together manage shared stocks in a sustainable way, agree reciprocal access to waters and a fairer allocation of fishing opportunities for the UK fishing industry, and.. ensure open markets for each others products.

    Now we understand why they don’t want to return all 111 devolved powers to Scotland. The UK common market for Agriculture, fisheries and drinks will have to be part of the WM gov, hand for negotiations. What else have they got to negotiate with?

    All it needs at the end is for the melody of ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ to be faded in under the last 3 mintes of her speech and she’s got her next PPB in the can. Ugh!

  10. Meg merrilees

    Robert P

    You wrote:

    It is written into such as the European Union rules for example and it is that any identifiable group of people, (they do not need to be an already established nation), have the inalienable rights of self determination.

    I’m a wee bit worried now, cos Treesa May has just said that she is confident of one thing, the “jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK must end”.

    So, keep the devolved powers on Fishing, agriculture, food and drinks and end the ECJ powers – what else have we mange to find in the coded speech?

  11. Brian Doonthetoon

    On looking back over the past couple of years, I think what has been forgotten is the MSM’s roll in the ultimate “leave” vote.

    What I recall is a lot of vox pops and so on, on national television, where EU immigrants were blamed for everything under the sun. The opinion of the man on the Clapham bus…

    This, endlessly repeated in the press, and on TV, led to that narrow win for the “leave” tendency.

    It was all based on a xenophobic premise. I’m typing about south of The Tweed here. The chickens are coming home to roost. EU workers are heading back to mainland Europe, because they now feel unwelcome on this island. The NHS, particularly in England, is gonna have a major shortfall in staff, because that staff no longer feels valued or welcomed here.

    That is the result of the “leave” vote. All the other repercussions emanate from that anglo-centric xenophobia.

  12. stewartb

    The subject of international recognition of sovereignty and self-determination has come up (again) in this thread. I posted this – a extract from a ‘UN Expert’ statement – here in October, 2017 when discussions about Catalonia were raging. It may be of interest to some now.


    “… While the principle of territorial integrity is important, as understood in many United Nations Resolutions, including GA Resolutions 2625 and 3314, it is intended to be applied externally, to prohibit foreign threats or incursions into the territorial integrity of sovereign States. This principle cannot be invoked to quench the right of all people, guaranteed under Article 1 of the International Covenants on Human Rights, to express their desire to control their futures.

    The right of self-determination is a right of peoples and not a prerogative of States to grant or deny. In case of a conflict between the principle of territorial integrity and the human right to self-determination, it is the latter that prevails.

    Of course, there are many peoples worldwide who aspire to self-determination, whether internal in the form of autonomy or external in the form of independence. And while the realization of self-determination is not automatic or self-executing, it is a fundamental human right that the international community should help implement.”

    The UN statement goes on:

    “The international law of self-determination has also progressed far beyond mere decolonization. Applying the 15 criteria contained in my 2014 report (paras 63-77), it is evident that no state can use the principle of territorial integrity to deny the right of self-determination and that arguments about the legality of actions taken by Catalonia’s elected parliament are immaterial. Such arguments do not nullify the ius cogens* character of self-determination.”

    (* an international norm from which no derogation is permitted.)

  13. jfngw

    UKIP are on the BBC again, this is a party with 1.8% support at the last election but are on the BBC constantly. It would seem for the BBC this is an EU exit that is only to be discussed by people from England (unless they can get a Davidson comment).

    I want to get out of this even more than I did in 2014. It’s incomprehensible that the Scots could again vote against running their own country and vote to be walked over again. I just find it dumbfounding that the polls are not at 70% yes.

  14. heedtracker

    jfngw says:
    2 March, 2018 at 11:22 pm
    UKIP are on the BBC again, this is a party with 1.8% support at the last election but are on the BBC constantly.

    That crew made UKIP what they became, currently they’re routinely monstering Angela Merkel, for all kinds of wishful Brexit domino effects.

    Why? is it because that German leader let in over a million Syrian refugees or is she just not letting tory UK take what they want from the EU and sod the rest of it?

    BBC monstered or blacked out the EU for decades.

    Their Brexit campaigning coverage included massive beeb gimp boosts for all top European fascists, not just Farage but Marine Le Pen of France and Geert Wilders of the Netherlands, repeatedly and very pleasantly fluffed by likes of Jim Naughty on tour, another world class beeb gimp who worked hard to get Jabba the Hut as Scotland’s only UKIPer MEP.

    All of these far right neo fascists are extremely familiar names, thanks to the BBC. Last BBC r4 vote fascist EU stuff I heard, they were being very lovely to the Austrian neo nazi party, who are actually living the UKIPer dream.

    This crew were on BBC r4 a lot too, explaining how they’re actually really nice nazis. Not the bad kind, the nice ones.

    England is under neo fascist rule now. Look at the flip for Thatcherite pro EU membership decades ago, pumping billions of not Scots oil and gas revenue into an integrated EU/UK economic miracle really.

    God only knows what Thatcher makes of nest gen toryboy neo fascists either, in her pyramid.

  15. Fireproofjim

    I have not seen a poll for a month or two
    Independence has been hovering around 45%-47% for months, but quite firm. I am confident that it will rise. Nobody can be unaware of the Brexit disaster looming.
    I see Mundell says Inderef2 is being planned for this Autumn. I can inform him it will be planned when the Scottish Government thinks they will win and not a minute before. Date not important. Result ALL important.

  16. Dr Jim

    Fortunately we don’t run the country dependent on newspaper polls, if we did we’d be just as gullible to manipulation as they are in England and as the newspapers in Scotland are all English they do keep trying to do the same here

    The SNP Scottish government get their information in other ways, our problem is getting our information out because that’s against the code of the Scottish media

    What other political leader in any country anywhere has to depend on social media to make statements or pass on information then for the newspapers and TV to rubbish that information without right of reply from the elected leader of that country

    All over the world journalists practically camp out on leaders doorsteps shouting for quotes and begging for interviews but not in Scotland

    I’ve not always agreed with this idea of becoming the media because the people the actual media have access to don’t access the media we use so are more susceptible to the traditional stuff that we’re kept off

    Whilst I hold no criticism of our FM on almost everything I do wish she’d start slapping the media in Scotland around a bit and start making them look like the fools and liars they are, remember Carmichael, to this day there are folk who believe he was not guilty because of the amount of whitewash he was allowed to paint himself with, all with the help of the print and telly media by continually asking his lying opinion on stuff thereby legitimising him after deliberately blatantly slandering and lying on live TV then in their rotten to the core newspapers

  17. Meg merrilees

    SNP win the Clackmannashire by-election on thursday March 1st despite horrendous weather.


    Helen Lewis (SNP) – 769 (36.8%)
    Alex Stewart (Con) – 658 (31.5%)
    Afifa Khanam (Lab) – 493 (23.6%)
    Damian Sherwood-Johnson (L/Dem) – 84 (4%)
    Marion Robertson (Gre) – 74 (3.5%)
    The council confirmed there were a total of 2092 votes cast, with 14 rejected ballots.

  18. heedtracker

    Whilst I hold no criticism of our FM on almost everything I do wish she’d start slapping the media in Scotland around a bit and start making them look like the fools and liars they are”

    That would be like walking in to a very not concealed bear trap. UK press and the BBC are not messing around. They are the most powerful politicised media anywhere outside of Murdoch’s FOX network in America.

    Think of it as a howling hate mob, that cant actually get into Sturgeon’s face.

    Or look at politicos that have tried to take them on and probably lost everything to our neo fascist thug tabloid’s, aka the Welsh Windbag.

    Its not just the power to destroy the character of non tories for our ghastly msm,

    Note todya how The Graun’s given that massive yoon Loki and his book a huge boost today, if you have moment. There’s no mention from those professional liars that their great hero’s taken lots and lots of very Britnat tory cash, because that changes everything about that dude.

    How many actual elected SNP MSP’s have ever been given a mention by stinky olde The Graun, since ever? None.

  19. heedtracker

    So stinky old the Gruan focuses on a dude from Glasgow who’s been given lots of money from filthy rich unionists in Edinburgh, like JK Trolling, to write a book about poverty in Glasgow but they’ve not found any The Graun space for this, or rather, it’s just more, “Sturgeon rejects offer” lies from that crew of Tories.

  20. Cubby

    Sensibledave = lying British Nationalist paid for troll.

  21. yesindyref2

    @Robert Peffers
    You’ve actually proven that he has a point, and have also posted how to handle it – an oil fund.

    Yes Scotland has had a sufficient onshore economy (without oil) since at least the mid 70s when I was involved in a very small team study of the Scottish economy (I had statistics, Fortran and Algol, worked with an economist), and that was without oil.

    It presumably was sound before then, and with that study behind me, I watched the economy over the next 4 decades. As shipbuilding went down, oil went up. As heavy manufacturing and steel went down, computers and electronics went up. When computers and eletronics went down there was space and aeronaticals. Meanwhile the financial sector went up, and as aeronauticals went down a bit, life sciences and marine sciences went up.

    All the time with a bedrock of food and drink which also evolved. Whisky for instance started declining, so the industry came up with whisky cocktails for the younger drinker. Beer, well, there used to be basically McEwans / Youngers and Tennents with the odd Maclay and so on. Then real ales, then local ales outside their areas and even onto the supermarket shelves, then craft ales.

    Point being that industry in Scotland evolves fast to meet new challenges and new markets, and I’d say being small as a country helps that evolution.

    Oil? Oil is a bonus. But it MUST be treated that way in Indy Ref 2.

  22. Ed t head

    From what I have read and seen the uk is a lost cause it looks like they want to go back to the empire but reality is the world has moved on NI and Gib will cause problems but selling out agri and fishing to save the “city” will make them feel like winners. And will go down well with pro brexit groups. Was I just daft in thinking that euro elections were for voting on our representives in the ( unelected Europe). I have heard that Gove was a tosser at school in Aberdeen, so as we are being lead by a bunch of second rate loosers who are about there image not for the population . And I can’t think of any time that J Major would seem to speak total sense, thanks to all the info on this site and the clown sensible Dave, Dave is the like the sh** I flush. I want Indi and any question about the eu can be asked after we are free, looking at the way the SNP are planning a Indi ref as WM get more rabid a good result for Indi goes up as the saying goes wait till you see the whites of there eyes. Vote Yes for a good future.

  23. Bill

    OT but need to say something that nobody is talking about:

    My current viewpoint that hasnt shifted since 2014 –

    WM will turn Scottish Parliament into a powerless talking shop after Brexit, they dont need to shut it down, only remove all their powers.

    NI – WM is gambling the “IRA” won’t return to violence in the face of any kind of border.

    Vote No again and it’ll be over. End of story.

  24. Al Dossary

    Re the oil and Norway.

    One of the first platforms I was on was the Brent Bravo. On he platform I came across a book titled “30 years of Norwegian Oil”

    The first point from the book was that (as a true democracy) the Norwegian parliament passed a law stating that the oil belonged to the Norwegian people and could only be used for the greater good of those very people.

    The other interesting Pont was his the Norwegians handled the US oil majors in negotiotons.

    They US majors were not getting what they wanted and basically told the Norwegians that they either do it our way or not at all. The Norwegians wrte not willing to bend to their will.

    1 week after walking out, the US majors came back offering to negotiate – “Sorry, we have decided to do it ourself” was the response. In the ensuing months and years tge Norwegians seylt up Statoil and proceded to headhunt top managers and directors the world over for their newly formed company. The rest is history as they say.

    The UK on the other hand rolled over and gave in to those self same vultures that were the US majors at the time. Every single one of the early super-size fields was basically drained as fast as the oil would flow and then sold on to another company once the flow rates had dropped.

  25. yesindyref2

    With the Continuity Bill, and the struggle over who gets those 25 repatirated powerrs from the EU, it seems a good time to repeat this from the Scotcen Social Attitudes Survey from 2016, the 2017 one being due probably end March. Thjese questions funded by ScotGov.

    Almost two thirds (65%) of people in 2016 said they trusted the Scottish Government „just about always? or „most of the time? to work in Scotland?s best interests.

    This compared with a quarter of people (25%) in 2016 saying that they trusted the UK Government „just about always? or „most of the time? to work in Scotland?s best interests”

    So basically over these powers, UK Gov is saying trust us, don’t trust ScotGov. And Scotgov is saying trust us, don’t trust UK Gov.

    Who to trust, now that’s a tricky one. Am I a 65%, or a 25%?

  26. yesindyref2

    If of course anyone who has a Herald sign-on wants to post something like that on Tom Gordon’s article “Tom Gordon: Brexit Bill impasse now down to a fight over raw power” who would I be to complain? It’s barely possible there’s a suitable short posting as the first comment to add it to …

  27. sensibledave


    … so, to summarise many of the the points made above by many WIngers, you argue that, for instance, Mercs, BMWs, VWs, Audis, etc being say 25% more expensive to UK buyers … will not affect sales of those cars in the UK and therefore there will be no loss of jobs or wealth in Germany.

    … If that sort of thinking represents the basis of your understanding of the overall position, then I now understand why you consistently completely misjudge major issues.

  28. sensibledave


    In an effort to help you understand …..

    “The Deloitte study examines the scenario of a Brexit with no EU-UK trade deal, which would imply the introduction of WTO tariffs on imports. For the car industry, that means a 10% tariff on vehicles and a 4.5% tariff on car parts. In addition, the study accounts for a 10% devaluation of sterling based on the currency’s trajectory since the referendum last June. What the study doesn’t consider is that this scenario would also entail the introduction of customs controls and a range of non-tariff barriers, notably rules of origin, which all additional issues likely to concern the car industry.

    Its main findings can be summarised as follows:

    The total revenue from vehicles in the UK will fall by approximately €12.4bn (-18%), and profits by €900m. While producers from the UK and from outside the EU would benefit, the revenue of the EU without Germany would fall by €8.3bn and of German producers by €6.7bn.

    In the year of withdrawal, car sales will decline by approximately 550,000 units (-19%) in the UK. The German car exports would fall by 255,000 units (-32%).

    Based on the sales and revenue decline, approximately 18,000 jobs in the German car industry would be put at direct risk.
    Overall, the study finds that the impact of such a Brexit on the German car industry would be similar to that of the financial crisis, with car production falling to 2.28m units in 2019, down from 3.07m in 2016 and close to the 2.19m of 2009.”

    … That is based upon a 10% decline in the value of the pound!

    14% of all German cars made are exported to the UK … its biggest export market in the world.

    This “issue” repeats for 1000s of products from the 27 countries.

    I know you don’t want to believe this because it demonstrates that a lot of you know jack about the big issues at play here.

    “No deal” is a disaster that no one wants because of the economic recession that would result in the EU and UK.

    Is your argument that the EU negotiators would/should consider this outcome a price worth paying?

  29. orri

    Ireland is “fun” or rather a nightmare of May. Or at least it should be if she had any sense.

    If I have it right Stormont has a right to call a Border Poll that doesn’t even have the need for an S30 to ensure Westminster accepts the result.

    Also as seen before it fell, it doesn’t take a majority to force a re-election.

    The only saving grace, as far as unionists go, is that the same delaying tactics could be used to ensure that in the case of a nationalist majority that it never sits again.

    That assumes the DUP, if they are the only unionist party standing, don’t give such of an appearance of being reasonable in their negotiations that people call them out when they call no deal at the last minute.

    So, depending on how you look at it, NI is something that might resolve itself in the near future depending on whether Westminster can manage to sabotage Stormont’s powers or not before it sits again.

    However that also depends on Ireland, as an EU member, not having a significant input into any deal the EU makes.

  30. Dave McEwan Hill

    We know things are going badly for the nawbags when sensibledave is frantic

  31. sensibledave

    Dave McEwan Hill 8:48 am

    You wrote “We know things are going badly for the nawbags when sensibledave is frantic”

    … and we know when some Wingers have completely lost the plot when they argue that a 25% increase in the price of something wont affect sales thereof.

    You couldn’t make it up!

    I am absolutely astonished by the stunning naivety of some here. They obviously spend too much time in this echo chamber and only ever hear one side of the story … and we end up with some of the pronouncements made above … without even a hint of embarrassment!

  32. sensibledave

    Cubby = Head up is arse numptie that can’t make a salient point on anything and resorts only to to Heedyesque garbage.

  33. dave Stewart

    poor old sensible dave.

    You have forgotten what your handlers say about projections, they’re not to be trusted.
    Your handlers actual sales for cars say that 85% of new cars taking the road are’nt owned by the drivers, they’re hired on PCP deals.
    Open your eyes man, the majority of cars on the roads in the UK are foreign made or made by foreign owned companies.
    For a response, Name a car manufacturer that is fully owned by a UK registered company.
    Big picture, PCPs are the next bubble, they’re being sold to councils as investments, just like mortgages were.
    Companies will still reward their directors etc by letting them run a Premium car like BMW or Merc, people buying a car will just have to settle for a VW and downsize, or keep their existing Foreign car running for another time period.
    Yes things will be different when we leave the EU, but for them, they will work with their populations, not against them.
    won’t reply to a man that needs a new guide dog, the old one needs to be retired.

  34. sensibledave

    orri 8:10 am

    The position with respect to a border on the Island of Ireland is extremely hazardous from many points of view and for many reasons.

    However, again, the bit that never gets mentioned ….

    “Irish businesses fear Brexit will lead to a costly rise in tariffs, paperwork and transit times.

    The UK accounts for around 17% of Irish exports, but that figure leaps to 44% when foreign-owned firms are excluded.

    Employment-heavy industries in rural areas are also among the most reliant on trade across the Irish Sea.

    Products of Ireland’s agri-food sector are among the EU’s most exposed to Brexit, the research showed, led by cereals, fruit and vegetables, almost 90% of which are exported to the UK.

    High volume Irish industries such as meat, dairy products, the live animal trade and wood manufacturing are also among the most exposed. ”

    So, 44% of indigenous Irish exports come to the UK. If the Irish insist on playing their cards they way they are and throwing in their lot totally behind the EU stance …. then they run the risk of trashing their economy to a degree that is almost unimaginable.

    Why would they do that? Why would the Irish workers support a government that managed to insist on that reesult as being a “win” for the EU?

    Wake up people! Is this all “news” to you?

  35. sensibledave

    Dave Stewart

    Well, at least Mr Stewart is starting to accept the reality. He wrote …

    “Premium car like BMW or Merc, people buying a car will just have to settle for a VW and downsize, or keep their existing Foreign car running for another time period.

    … and the jobs of those people that worked at Merc and BMW?

    … and the profits of Merc and BMW?

    …. and the Corporation tax and income tax from those workers at Merc and BMW?

    … and the beneits payments to those workers that lost their jobs at Merc and BMW?

    Please tell me clearly Mr Stewart. Are you actually arguing that the sales of German cars, in your highly knowledgeable view, will be unaffected, overall, by a “no deal” Brexit? Or are you arguing that the EU is prepared to sacrifice the livelihoods of those workers as price worth paying? Do tell?

    Is that the sum total of your argument?

    … I feel sorry for you. Your ignorance knows no bounds.

    Do you honestly believe that you know more than a whole of raft of reports produced on the affect of Brexit on the German car industry. Is your “knowledge” the basis of the SNP position on this subject?

    You need help Mr Stewart, serious help.

  36. Fred

    Anent the Tyndrum gold-mine, the half-million sweetener plus fifty real jobs is a great boost to a small village where “tourism” or “leave” are the only options for kids. Tyndrum was mining lead for hundreds of years & the locals are all in favour of the mine. The dead-hand of these so-called National Parks will see the Highlands as a theme-park & Brigadoon appear yet! There must surely be a ready market for the crushed rock as aggregate or concrete. The quarry beside the A9 at Blair Atholl delivers all over the north.

  37. North chiel

    Hopefully, we in Scotland might not be too concerned with declining German car sales in England , as an independent Scotland either in the SM/CU or EU might just possibly “ take up a little of the slack” from our future European “ friends& partners” car plants?? Perhaps additionally Mrs Merkel might even consider us for some inward investment ?? Certainly our energy exports might interest our future “ friends& partners” . ?? I would suggest that these possible new arrangements might be significantly more fruitful than with our previous supposed “ friends and equal?? Partners”???

  38. yesindyref2

    Your source of information – Open Europe – Open Europe responds to the Prime Minister’s Road to Brexit speech:

    Open Europe’s Henry Newman argues that the Prime Minister has put a serious offer on the table for the future UK-EU economic partnership.

    I nearly pissed myself laughing.

    Please, don’t embarrass yourself any more, it’s excruciating.

  39. Kangaroo


    The EU is quite clear on the type of deal being offered, a Canada deal with NO services.

    With this in mind I would like to ask you just how Wanglanders will be able to afford to buy cars without Scotlands resources? That is not tongue in cheek it is a serious question. What is it that Wangland has to sell to the EU?

  40. sensibledave


    … Im not sure I understand … We WILL have Scotland’s resources … its part of the Uk. Scots voted to be part of the UK. Do you not remember?

  41. North chiel

    “ Scotland’s resources” might well be “ running out” in the not to distant future as far
    as “ Westminster” is concerned .The 311 year old “ friends& equal partnership” arrangement appears to have “ run its course” . Time for a change “ friend”?

  42. orri

    Any deal Westminster makes that relies on Scotland or any part of the UK’s resources without the say so of the residents of that “partner” in the UK will be broken as so as they get a say in it.

    The current attempt at stripping Holyrood of the powers necessary to do so short of outright independence are only inviting that as a last resort even amongst those currently undecided or at present opposed.

    Not only that but those attempts are an indication of exactly the lengths Westminster will go to to renege on an commitments they’ve made. Even should they manage to intercept the powers over fishing and farming before the UK leaves the EU the EU aren’t stupid enough to rely on the UK keeping a single promise even if they wanted to.

  43. Kangaroo


    Sorry sensible but I was assuming that Wangland was on its own, or are you stating that Wangland can’t survive without Scotlands resources to negotiate with?

  44. sensibledave

    Kangaroo 9:32 am

    You wrote “The EU is quite clear on the type of deal being offered, a Canada deal with NO services.”

    .. well at least I am making some progress with you in that you have, finally, accepted that.

    So that is their starting point, whilst the UK’s is the other end of the scale.

    So, “Brains”, where do you think the negotiations will end up?

    Are you arguing that the EU will not give one inch from the CETA deal? Yes or No Kangaroo?

    Where do you think EU corporations are going to get their money to fund investments and liquidity (please don’t tell me Franfurt or Paris … give them 10 years and then maybe … but not in the next 3 years). You don’t know about this stuff do you Kangaroo? You’ve got it all sorted out and no one here on Wings ever “corrects” you do they.

    Anyway, again to summarise the combined brain power, knowledge and judgement of the “wings” cohort, the collective view is that the post Brexit deal that the UK will have is either “no deal” or a deal that is the same as CETA.

    On this day, 3rd of February 2018, that is the considered “judgement” of Wings Over Scotland.

    I will pop back and remind you of this post Brexit…. I will try to maintain the degree of magnanimity and generousness that I usually demonstrate … but you will just have to forgive me if I slip towards a little smidge of “I told you so”in the process.

  45. sensibledave

    Kangaroo 10:30 am

    You wrote “Sorry sensible but I was assuming that Wangland was on its own, or are you stating that Wangland can’t survive without Scotlands resources to negotiate with?”

    … that assumption is where you keep going wrong. Unless i have missed something in the news in the last 5 minutes, Scottish voters voted to remain part of the UK. Since then the majority of Scots voted in the GE for parties that had leaving the EU as their manifest commitment. Do you have any other “evidence” to bring to bear .. other than to just keep repeating to yourself that the people of Scotland want to leave the UK?

  46. Kangaroo


    Sorry, you misunderstand me. I am simply seriously asking you what does Wangland have to offer the EU in trade negotiations?

  47. sensibledave

    Kangaroo 10.46

    I will respond on the basis that yours is a serious question.

    The total value of goods and services that the EU exports to the UK is believed to be £390 Billion. The UK is the EU’s biggest or second biggest export market (depending upon which figures you take).

    The amount that the Eu exports to the UK is larger than the EU’s exports to Norway, Switzerland and Canada put together.

    Does that start to answer your “serious” question or are you going to respond with some inane dismissal of the importance or relevance of the those facts?

  48. gus1940


    The hypocritical demonisation of Putin and Russia rolls on.

    Now we have the horrific news this week that Putin has announced the development of a super new missile and our politicians and their media lapdogs are up in arms but seem to have forgotten that several weeks ago The Orange Hitler in The White House announced that he was going to spend billions on upgrading The US nuclear weapons. Somehow that was OK and unprovocative and non-aggressive while Putin’s announcement is a threat to The West.

    Moving on to Syria during the battle for Aleppo there was an outcry aginst Syria and Russia for bombing innocent civilians and allegedly using WMDs complete with threats of War Crimes Trials.

    These accusations all went quiet when the battle for Mosul commenced and Iraq, The US and an assortment of other Western Countries including The UK bombed the hell out of countless innocent civilians accompanied by horrendous atrocities on the ground. However, that was all considered OK and barely reported.

    For an indication of the horrors of Mosul try Googling ‘Mosul Battle Atrocities’ and you will find a long Guardian article which can only be described as shocking as much of it describes revolting atrocities committed by the attacking forces i.e. the supposed good guys.

    Now, however with Mosul conveniently forgotten by most people we are back to the old hypocrisy over the current battle for Ghouta with the same old accusations being made against Russia and Syria by the lilywhite US and their allies.

  49. Kangaroo


    I am aware that the UK imports a lot of stuff from the EU but my question is what does Wangland export to the EU as at the end of the day that is what it has to offer in negotiations.

    I am assuming that Scotland is taking the necessary steps to ring fence its resources so that they are not used as bargaining chips by England. That being the case then what are you going to give the EU in exchange for importing its goods?

  50. gus1940

    I seem to have upset The Scotsman’s in-house SIU Fan Club this morning with my comments on the article about The Duchess Of Hamilton.

    How about some fellow Wingers joining in the fun – they seem to be particularly sensitive today to criticism of their apparent god-given right to rule the roost in the BTL area of that unionist propaganda rag.

  51. Chick McGregor

    ” The White House announced that he was going to spend billions on upgrading The US nuclear weapons. Somehow that was OK and unprovocative and non-aggressive while Putin’s announcement is a threat to The West.”

    The difference is that Putin’s finger on the nuclear button is a possible threat to the West whereas Trump’s diminutive digit is a definite threat to the West.

  52. sensibledave

    Kangaroo 11:12 am

    You wrote “I am aware that the UK imports a lot of stuff from the EU but my question is what does Wangland export to the EU as at the end of the day that is what it has to offer in negotiations.

    No Kangaroo, you have it totally the wrong way round.

    Our market, and continuing frictionless access to it by the EU is what we have to offer in the negotiations That is exactly my point.

    If you don’t “get” that then thee is little more i can say.

  53. yesindyref2

    You really need to get your information from official sources like eurostats, and examine that info. Here’s one:

    EU-28 international trade in goods with the rest of the world (the sum of extra-EU exports and imports) was valued at EUR 3 453 billion in 2016

    which is higher than this:

    Trade in goods between EU Member States (intra-EU trade) was valued — in terms of dispatches — at EUR 3 110 billion in 2016.

    but this:

    The Netherlands (12.5 %) was the only other Member State to contribute more than one tenth of intra-EU dispatches, again a consequence of the Rotterdam effect, while France (11.8 %) and the United Kingdom (9.6 %) accounted for close to one tenth of intra-EU-28 arrivals.

    So how now does that 1/10th about of intra-EU trade compared with a figure 11 times as much for extra-EU plus 9 times as much intra-EU, make the EU-27 likely to fall all over itself, jeapordising its trade with the rest of the world, and with each other member state, compromising its single markt and customs union, just so as to give the UK a friendly kiss on its way out the door?

    Compared to the world and the totality of the EU-27, the UK is as nothing, just a third country the EU-27 would like to trade wtih on its NORMAL terms.

  54. yesindyref2

    For completeness I missed out Germany: “Germany was also the EU Member State with the highest level of intra EU-28 trade in 2016, contributing 22.8 % of the EU-28’s dispatches of goods to other Member States and also just over one fifth (20.9 %) of the EU-28’s arrivals of goods from other Member States“.

    But your problem is that Germany accounts for 19% of EU extra-EU export of goods from a detail chart, and services exports in the EU are just one-third of that of goods:

    The value of international trade in goods significantly exceeds that of services (by about three times), reflecting the nature of some services which makes them harder to trade across borders.

    So what do you think is going to happen to the services market in the UK? Did I say going to happen? If you read the news you’ll see it’s ALREADY happening.

    So I ask again, why on earth do you think Germany would even think of jeapordising its extra-EU and intra-EU trade, for the sake of a few cars to the UK which will sell anyway, probably as personal imports to save the tariff, as happened before.

  55. yesindyref2

    A little exercise for you is to poer over those pages and tables, and find out what proportion of Germany’s intra-EU trade is with the UK. And then again ask you if it’s prepared to waive the rules for the sake of that!

    Sorry to rain on your – somewhat totally unjustifiably arrogant – parade. Here, borrow my umbrella, you’ll need it when Scotland leaves the UK and the UK ceases to exist.

  56. K1

    ‘… Im not sure I understand … We WILL have Scotland’s resources … its part of the Uk. Scots voted to be part of the UK. Do you not remember?’

    Ah…that’ll be why he’s frothing…the arrogant Englanders know where the real resources and exports emanate from…and he says he has no ‘dog’ in our independence fight?


    Scots voted to remain in the EU. By 62%. Do you seriously think that 2014’s vote trumps 2016’s vote?

    We have a constitutional crisis underway…we will not be dragged out of the EU and our resources plundered for the sake of ‘little’ England’s absurd isolationist agenda.

    Whether you like it or not. We will protect our resources, services and people from the mad Tory power grab under way.

  57. sensibledave


    You seem to have lost some of the common sense you are normally capable of bringing to these discussions. You wrote …

    “So I ask again, why on earth do you think Germany would even think of jeapordising its extra-EU and intra-EU trade, for the sake of a few cars to the UK which will sell anyway, probably as personal imports to save the tariff, as happened before.

    Why would it need to jeopardise its other trade? All they need to do, together with the rest of the EU is agree a good trade deal with the EU and we can all carry on trading.

    All that other stuff you wrote just illustrates that you appear not to have a clue about national economics. for a country to achieve 3% growth, year on year, in GDP is considered a very good performance.

    The Uk takes 16% of the EU’s world exports. If that business is affected seriously then the EU can kiss goodbye to any growth for years.

    You arguing your position because you need/want the UK to be an irrelevance when, as discussed in a previous thread and contrary to the portrayal by many here, the Uk is hugely important to the world economy.

    I can see you will carry on seeking to deny these facts so I dont know what more I can say. I quoted the Deloitte’s report summary verbatum and you have dismissed it out of hand in favour of your partisan wishful thinking.

    Your judgement is totally infected by your partisanship such that you cannot even accept the value and importance of the UK and it place in the world against any economic, cultural or sporting measure.

    It is very sad.

  58. sensibledave


    You wrote “Scots voted to remain in the EU. By 62%. Do you seriously think that 2014’s vote trumps 2016’s vote?”

    Shorts answer … YES!

    When Scots have had the opportunity to express their views on independence in both the indyref and the GE, in both cases, by a majority, the voted against independence and against parties pushing for independence.

    The EU referendum was a UK referendum and Scottish Independence was not on the ballot paper … and you choose to choose that one as the bell weather. You are bonkers!

  59. K1

    ‘and Scottish Independence was not on the ballot paper’

    Yes it was, the alliance of Tory and Labour pulling together to shout loudly ‘no referendum’ in Scotland during the GE was what actually got those Tory muppets elected to Westminster.

    SNP’s votes actually increased during that campaign. but of course your sources of information come primarily from the Beeb and the rags and they all proclaimed some sort of tide turning victory for the Tories in Scotland on the back of those 13 Tory MP’s being elected.

    The point regarding those two votes in the Sottish context is that there is indeed a constitutional conundrum that needs resolved. If you recall the Indyref vote was won on 55% to 45%, the EU ref Scotland voted 62% to remain, there is a crossover in our polity wrt our political outlook, which given the magnitude of the impact on Scotland from Brexit, I rather think it is obvious that we will have to revisit the question of our independence quite soon?

    It doesn’t not matter how much you ‘shout’ about the vote in 2014. And what ‘you’ claim it means. The reality is right now we are introducing emergency legislation to ensure that England does not get to plunder our resources to save your country’s neck.

    The days of Scotland having to accept what England decides…are nearly over. Suck it up.

  60. yesindyref2

    Just look at this from your “posting”: “The Uk takes 16% of the EU’s world exports.

    and it should be obvious to you that you need to do a lot of reading and learning before posting. Reading what you reply to would be a good start.

    Sorry, I don’t do education, or tutoring.

  61. sensibledave


    … sir, you have a very warped view in life.

    And, for the umpteenth time, I am happy that Scotland goes whatever direction the majority of Scots want it to go in terms of Independence.

    The only issue I have is that when it comes to the one Parliament that I have a vote in … that a Scots voter has exactly the same rights as me. No more no less. … and certainly not some power of veto on Uk matters. Should I assume that you do?

    I know that doesn’t fit with your grievance based portrayal of “the English” but hey, I don’t care.

  62. K1

    BTW the SNP didn’t campaign or ‘push’ for independence during the GE campaign. We elected them on the ticket of protecting Scotland’s interests. They won, we have 37 SNP members of parliament?

    You state that ‘in both cases’ wrt to indyref and GE that the Scots voted ‘against parties pushing for independence’.

    The SNP won the GE. So it stands to reason that the majority voted for that party? Same for our Holyrood elections, they are the government in Scotland?

    You think because they lost a few seats that they were ‘holed’? You ain’t seen nothing yet.

  63. sensibledave


    …which part of the quoted phrase do you not understand ?

  64. K1

    Oh you ‘care’. Why’re you on here insulting a lecturing us all then?

    You are a class ridden little Englander wi a need to patronise and condescend. Don’t worry about it too much though…we understand how inferior your education has been, what with learning to bow yer knees so often tae yer betters, you grasp at any opportunity to sneer at those your betters tell you to sneer at tae mak ye feel like a man.

  65. yesindyref2

    For the sake of anyone else happening to read, here’s your absurd statement again: “The Uk takes 16% of the EU’s world exports.”.

    Now then, using the figures I gave you from eurostats

    1. The UK is part of the EU, therefore it’s trade with the EU is intra-EU trade not “world export”.
    2. The EU intra-EU trade from those figures is 47.4% of its total trade.
    3. though those figures aren’t split according to import and export, assuming some equivalence, for the UK to “takes 16% of the EU’s world exports”, it would have to be taking 33.8% of the EU’s intra-EU trade.

    Now, in all seriousness in your sadness, do you seriously mean to tell me the UK is one-third of the total of the 27 other members of the EU’s trade?

    Don’t be daft. We’d all have to have about 10 cars each, and be eating pasta and gouda like it’s going out of fashion.

  66. K1

    Keep pummelling him. It’s been a delight to watch him thrash about drowning in his own stupidity whilst claiming it’s everyone else that’s stupid.

    I rather thought Chris’s latest toon could be just as easily applied tae himsel’ on here tae 😉

  67. yesindyref2

    @ sensibledave says: 3 March, 2018 at 6:53 pm


    …which part of the quoted phrase do you not understand ?

    Quite frankly sensibledave I didn’t understand any of your “posting”, or any of your ramblings because they’re so far removed from reality they make absolutely no sense at all, in fact they’re total nonsense.

    Stick to rugby, that’s my advice to you 🙂

  68. yesindyref2

    Whenever he gets challenged he resorts to such gibberings as “You arguing your position because you need/want the UK to be an irrelevance when, as discussed in a previous thread and contrary to the portrayal by many here, the Uk is hugely important to the world economy.” or mentions Deloitted for instance who I very much doubt would say antyhing as clearly nonsensical as “The Uk takes 16% of the EU’s world exports” – at least I hope not.

    A “think” tank with the name of “Open Europe” who may or may not be far right, perhaps.

    ‘Tis sad.

  69. Rock


    “Rock- the Scots are not plebs despite your repetition of your same statement ad nauseum.”

    When did I say all Scots were “plebs”?

    How many Scots had the right to vote when they were proclaimed “sovereign” by a document that was not worth the paper it was written on?

    How can a person without the right to vote be “sovereign”?

    When did all the people of Scotland get the right to vote and who gave it to them?


    “By my definition, the “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign” and any document that pretends they are is not worth the paper it was written on.”

  70. sensibledave


    Previously, I have credited you with more intelligence than the average dunderhead here. I am re-evaluating that.

    My point was a simple one. Even Heedy could have understood it.

    You seem to be using obfuscation as a debating tactic now. As I have no idea what you are trying to say. I will restate my position as follows:

    “The UK is the EU’s largest single export market in goods, if you treat the UK as if it were outside the EU. The United States is a close second. They make up 16% and 15% of exports to non-EU countries respectively. 26 Jan 2016”.

    Are you disputing those figures yesindyref. If so link me to yours. Alternatively, apologise for being a dick.

  71. yesindyref2

    Jings man, read what you just posted and then try to understand it. I’ll give you a free clue since you seem to need one. This is what you said:

    “The UK is the EU’s largest single export market in goods, if you treat the UK as if it were outside the EU

    Think about it in terms, and I’ll patiently repeat myself, in terms of “intra-EU trade” and “export” …

    .. do you have a glimmer of understanding yet?

    And even for those figures of yours, GIVE A LINK. I did for mine. And no, not one to “Open Europe”.

    You also FAILED your homework assignment earlier by the way. You get no points.

  72. sensibledave


    Go to:

    … scroll down to the fourth table/graph

    … and then apologise for being a dick.

  73. yesindyref2

    I’ve got better things to do, so rather than wait patiently while you stumble around in your fog trying to work out why it’s everyone else is stupid rather than you having a lack of simple understanding, here’s the maths from earlier, reversed, and assuming a rough equivalence of total trade with exports in terms of percentages.

    In your quoted words: “if you treat the UK as if it were outside the EU“. That’s EXTRA-EU TRADE, not TOTAL EU trade.

    16% if that’s the figure, of exports to the UK is a proportion of the EU’s extra-EU trade which is 3,453 billion out of a total of 6,563 billion, which is 53% of all its member trade, i.e. that 16% of exports OUTSIDE THE EU would be 8.5% of ALL its trade. Got it now? Not such a scary or impressive figure is it, son?

    Next time you call a whole load of people stupid, first look in the mirror.

  74. North chiel

    Isn’t it wonderful to be part of the “ new buzzword “ the U.K. Single market. ( “ U.K. union” ) as opposed to the EU single market ( EU union). Let’s compare : the EU single market is an equal partnership of sovereign states trading with each other ( and globally)for the mutual benefit of all members. They regularly have “ summits” with each member alternatively having the chair . Usually , during and following the summit ,members would meet over “ dinner” ( as friends do) to finalise & formalise the decisions. ( place settings with member state table top national flags to the fore)
    Compare with the 311 year old U.K. single market. Regular meetings between the 4 constituent “ nations “within the U.K. ? Answer no. Alternating chair persons at “ U.K. summits “? what summits?
    Regular “post summit” dinners ( with the table top flags of each member state ) ?? Whit!! Equal “ partners in the wonderful “ U.K. single market” ?? Feel the democracy and equality in our “ wonderful yookay “ single market”.

  75. sensibledave


    Cat got your keyboard yesindyref?

  76. yesindyref2

    I meant OFFICIAL source, not an interpretation by a third party. Mine was a eurostat, you failed to look there.

    However, you just proved you’re incapable of reading or understanding even stuff from your own link, is there something about “Excluding trade between EU countries” you don’t understand in fullfact’s (actually dodgy) interpretation of the stats?

    And are you such a dodgy quoter of “statistics” or “facts” you decided for some odd reason not to quote the figure in the second column titled “Including trade between EU countries” where it says “4. The UK (7%)“?

    THAT’S 7% – not 16%.

    What was that you were saying about you being a dick? I agree, you are.

  77. sensibledave


    … I suppose that is the nearest thing to an apology I will get.

    You wrote “.e. that 16% of exports OUTSIDE THE EU would be 8.5% of ALL its trade. Got it now? Not such a scary or impressive figure is it, son?

    … which is exactly, EXACTLY, what i wrote and you kept requoting back to me as wrong!

    In what world of commerce do you work yesindyref that means potentially damaging trade with your biggest “client” (where that client represents 16% of all your external trade) is of no consequence?

    Taking your figure that the UK market represents 8.5% of all trade within, and without , the EU, then if exports to the UK (and see the Deloitte’s report I quoted above that just covers German car exports) were damaged materially then it is quite conceivable that EU GDP could drop by 3%.

    Its part of this “thing” where in order to persue the scots indy thing, … you feel the need to rubbish my country and its importance, position or relevance in the world … which is your right of course.

    It is also my right to point out what you are doing and disagree and show evidence for why you are wrong.

    You appear to “need/want” the UK to not have the 5th/6th biggest economy in the world. You appear to need/want the UK not to be the EU’s biggest/2nd biggest export market (and by export market, I mean outside the EU or it wouldn’t be “exporting” would it”).

    What warped logic requires you to rubbish my country in order for you to “convert” your countrymen. Is that really the basis of the pro-indy stance? …. A complete falsehood and obfuscation of the truth?

  78. yesindyref2

    @sensibledave “ I suppose that is the nearest thing to an apology I will get

    You won’t get an apology because you were wrong, wrong, wrong, and were from the very beginning. Plus even now having been ground into the muck, handed your arse on a plate, continuing to talk utter moronic shite.

    Had you not been an arsehole and called everyone stupid, and that you were here to “educate” people with your total lack of understanding, inability to read a simple table, lack of even the basics of finger-counting maths, I would have courteously corrected you, as is my norm.

    As it is you behaved like a dick, and were rightly treated as one.

  79. K1

    I think we all know it is England that ‘appear to: “need/want” the UK to not have the 5th/6th biggest economy in the world.’.

    I think we all know too that it is England who ‘appear to need/want the UK not to be the EU’s biggest/2nd biggest export market (and by export market, I mean outside the EU or it wouldn’t be “exporting” would it”).’

    What warped logic requires that your country gets to plunder our country to continue its illusion of being ‘Great Britain’?

    Your country is dragging my country out of the EU. We don’t want dragged out by your mad Tory government who you vote for, who you support, who you are happy to see decimate the UK economy.

    So fuck off blaming us for your country’s fucking idiocy.

  80. Kangaroo

    @sensibledave @yesindyref2 @K1

    It was not my intention to start an internecine war, apologies to all.

    I was simply asking what england/wales (Wangland) has that the rest of the world wants to buy? Cause I can’t think of anything substantial. The only comment I recall was a politician suggesting they could sell jam,(it may have been Soubry) which is derisory to say the least. So what is it they have to sell?

    The world will soon tire of buying english debt as it is already off the charts.

    This is a genuine question, I have no idea what the answer is.
    Perhaps the arms trade is your answer???

  81. K1

    England has Scotland’s resources; whisky, fisheries, water. oil and gas, farming et al.

    He won’t be able to answer because he is not here to have reasoned debate.

    If England had it’s own goods to export the current Tory government would not be attempting to withhold 25 devolved areas that include all of the above to create the so called ‘UK single market’ to trade with whoever post Brexit.

    Which is why this is a blatant ‘power grab’ which would undermine the entire purpose and aims of devolution itself.

    Wangland needs Scotland more that Scotland needs Wangland. If they were just honest about it, but no…subsidy junkies and beggars…what we are apparently.

  82. yesindyref2

    Yes, defence sector is worth a fair bit for export. Take the F35, as a Tier 1 partner the UK gets to build 15% of the F35 in total, at say average $100 million each, for an order book of 3,000 worldwide over say 12 years, that’s $45 billion at 2018 prices. Then there’s other maintenance, avionics, weapons systems upgrades, whatever. Maybe the T31e if it exports (it might). The UK actually has missiles too. Main thing I guess for the rUK is services, which is a bit of a problem leaving the EU.

    Apart from that I don’t really know exports for the UK as a whole, just about Scotland as you mention.

  83. sensibledave


    In your post at 7.52, you wrote and quoted me thus …

    “Jings man, read what you just posted and then try to understand it. I’ll give you a free clue since you seem to need one. This is what you said:

    “The UK is the EU’s largest single export market in goods, if you treat the UK as if it were outside the EU”.

    Clearly, I am stating that the UK is “outside the EU” and that it is the biggest export market of the EU (where the EU is a single entity excluding the UK and exporting outside of the EU borders).

    I now see that you have completely misunderstood and have somehow managed to confuse the position by talking about trade within the EU. In that sense, the EU exporting to a world market.

    Nevertheless, somewhere in all of that you have agreed my figure… i.e 16% of the EU exports (i.e. to outside of the EU) come to the UK …. the EU’s biggest or second biggest export market (its between the UK and and the USA).

    You just believe (although I can’t believe you are actually saying it) that knocking on for £400 Billion of EU exports to the UK are irrelevant and inconsequential and that any detrimental impact on that number is irrelevant and inconsequential.

    … Which is where you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

    In addition, as discussed earlier, 44% of homegrown Irish exports come to the UK. I suppose that is irrelevant and inconsequential too?

    You have lost the plot sir.

  84. yesindyref2

    You have lost the plot sir.

    I’m losing the will to live with your nonsense and total inability to admit you got it illiterately wrong. No, I didn’t agree your figure of 16%, I asked you to prove it from eurostats, the official EU figures, not some “facts” blog.

    What remains is that you claimed 16% of “world exports”, whereas the figure for all EU exports, intra plus extra EU, is 7% (from your own “facts” blog) which you can’t read properly.

    Hello sensibledave, 7% is not 16%.

    You’re wrong, I’m right, and isn’t that just getting you in the proverbials?

    Night night, sleep tight, don’t let the gremlins bite.

  85. chasanderson200

    Details of the upcoming WINGERS SOCIAL GATHERING are posted over on off topic. The wingdingaling is to be held in the Otters Head in Woodside, Glenrothes on 7th April. See O/T for full details.

  86. sensibledave


    … did you listen to the Irish Prime Minister on Marr?

    How would you characterise his position. Did he sound to you like someone expecting a “no Deal” or a Norway deal?

    In his final paragraph of speech, he intimated that he welcomed HMG’s recent statement and understands that the UK want something between Canada and Norway type deal …and didn’t rule it out.

    Coming along nicely!

  87. Cubby

    Sensibledave = ignorant offensive British Nationalist paid troll.

  88. dakk

    ‘Coming along nicely!’

    UK will get the deal EU gives it, which will be soft dressed up as hard by your omnipresent propaganda machine.

    Everything is always great about ‘Britin’ in a BritNat’s parallel universe.

    Paedo rings at Westminster and the State Broadcaster,endless warmongering and profligacy.Nobody does it quite like you guys.

    The ‘good and decent’ people of ‘Britain’ like yourself, like it that way.

    That’s Great British democracy for you.

    As the quintessential Englishman says,

    ‘Lovely Jubbly’ 🙂

  89. sensibledave

    Kangaroo 10.39

    In case you are still returning to this thread, the answer is as follows (the total exports in 2017 were around $445 Billion of goods) … the information is all there on t’internet ….

    “The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2017. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.

    Machinery including computers: US$68 billion (15.3% of total exports)

    Vehicles: $53.7 billion (12.1%)

    Mineral fuels including oil: $35.6 billion (8%)

    Gems, precious metals: $32.8 billion (7.4%)

    Pharmaceuticals: $32.8 billion (7.4%)

    Electrical machinery, equipment: $28.6 billion (6.4%)

    Aircraft, spacecraft: $21.1 billion (4.7%)

    Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $18.1 billion (4.1%)

    Plastics, plastic articles: $12 billion (2.7%)

    Organic chemicals: $10.3 billion (2.3%)

    … not much eh?

  90. Cubby

    Sensibledave = ignorant arrogant offensive British Nationalist paid to TROLL

  91. sensibledave


    You could have answered Kangaroo’s request for information? But you didn’t, because you are a dick.

    Please explain how providing factual information in reponse to a question is being a “troll” … whilst you feel insulting educators like me is a wholesome exercise.

    Is it because you have lent your brain cell to some one else this week Cubby?

  92. yesindyref2

    Sensibledave = economical whizz kid who thinks 7% is 16%.

  93. Cubby

    Sensibledave = arrogant offensive paid to troll British Nationalist.

    Sensibledave = thicko who does not understand what bye bye Dave means.

    Sensibledave = virus that infects this site.

  94. sensibledave


    Cubby = someone that is completely incapable of putting forward a cogent argument on anything and so resorts to attempted insults (but nowhere near the “quality” I have been exposed to here over the years).

    … so he isn’t even any good at insulting people. Poor show Cubby.

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