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Bonfire Of The Sanities

Posted on July 01, 2017 by

The next five years of UK politics:

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    180 to “Bonfire Of The Sanities”

    1. Capella says:

      They just ooze charm these wee leprechauns with their magical money tree, spreading mischief wherever they go. If we believe in fairy tales they can keep this jig going.

    2. Jon Drummond says:

      Tragically, NOT May-DUP

    3. X_Sticks says:

      Haha, brilliant Chris. Outdone yourself with this one!

    4. David says:

      The unthinkables teaming up with the unwantables, a match made in hell

    5. Richardinho says:

      I see a bonfire, but weirdly not a effigy of the Pope or an Irish tri-color on top of it. Some mistake surely?

    6. jimnarlene says:

      I love the way the tree is try to protect it’s hoard.

    7. Smallaxe says:

      THE CASH that leaves this shore!

      So sure I’m an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin’s isle I came,
      To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,
      And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,
      So I will take your cash right now, then I’ll ask for more and more!

      Gie’s Peace

    8. Geronimo says:

      Smiles…..to be sure ….to be sure…..to be sure

    9. Dan Huil says:

      I count three crocks.

    10. sassenach says:

      Says it all, Lorna. You’ve ‘caught’ Treeza’s expression just perfectly!

    11. dakk says:

      Excellent Chris.

      The current make up of the UK gov is the best reflection of what are true British values and what Britain actually represents,so they deserve to stay in power for a long time

      All the rest including Corbyn’s rehash of Blair’s cool britannia is facade.

    12. dakk says:

      Excellent,Lorna I should say.

    13. Chris Cairns says:

      @X_sticks I’ll pass that onto Lorna.

    14. Ken500 says:

      Another great cartoon of the loons.

      Goodness grief the Tories in Scotland support the education
      changes. John Swinney. What happened. Liz Smith who harbours strange B & B guests in weird, accomodation. It’s alright off on a ramble and out of the loop again. Back to form the Tories support DUP. Starving and sanctioning vulnerable children, etc.

      Iain Gray lying again. Can’t count and read a balance sheet. Not comparing like with like. They should go to school. They didn’t learn much. Not fit for public office. 3rd rate rejects. Twenty years too long politics. Try another trade. Rambles on.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion. Fail Unionists who squandered all resources. Bombing the world to bits. What a waste.

      BBC parliamentary channel

      It won’t be delivered by Unionists/Greens

      Scotland had one of the best education system in the world. It would be even better if it wasn’t for the Unionist/greens wasting £Millions/Billions on grotesque non mandated projects of no value. They are responsible for wasting public funds which could be spent on essential services. Unionist/green councils cutting the budget for essential services. Get real liars.

      All teachers should have special needs training.

    15. Artyhetty says:

      Hah, brilliant! Are they dancing on our oil, cos this week has seen a huge spike in that useless to Scotland black stuff coming on tap, funny that.

      I sign so many petitions, about climate change, and how bad fossil fuels are, but I would much rather see Scotland’s oil revenues staying in Scotland to at least do some good investments in renewables, and improving the lives of our people. But no, the massive revenues are still being completely siphoned away to S. of Eng, and where is all that money going.

      Just imagine what the Scottish government could do with that money, on top of what they already do in terms of renewable energy. Makes me sick to my stomach, knowing that money is being wasted by britnat establishment, and even more so now with their dirty dealing.

      They can’t say there is ‘no more oil’ when the next independence referendum comes around, they will try, but many know it’s a big fat, lie and a big fat con. People don’t like being conned, we need to let as many as possible of them know that they are being conned, 24/7.

    16. Bob p says:

      A demonic duo.

    17. Robert Louis says:

      Haha excellent cartoon. So true.

      LOL. (as in laugh out loud, not Loyal Orange Lodge – just in case anybody thought I’d turned into a thick, pig ignorant, Scotland-hating, drunken, bigot ‘orange person’ overnight).

    18. colin alexander says:

      Patrick Harvie MSP of the Scottish Greens said:

      ““Scotland has not consented to being taken out of the EU and certainly not by a Tory government we did not elect. That Tory government’s refusal to acknowledge this means that the people of Scotland must have their right to choose respected. I’m glad that the First Minister says she is committed to that principle, but if a Bill for a referendum is shelved until late next year, there is no chance that the people will have the opportunity to make their choice until after we’ve been dragged out of Europe, and out of the single market too. That means lost jobs, lost rights and lost opportunities.

      “Seeking to influence the Brexit talks seems all well and good, but the UK government has shown zero interest in the views of all others and certainly those who see the social and economic wreckage which their plans will create.

      “With this announcement the people of Scotland face being denied the right to make their own choice until long after we leave the EU. In fact, the people of Scotland will be the only ones in Europe not to have their say on Brexit under the timeline outlined by the First Minister.”

    19. Grouse Beater says:

      And here’s me thinking £350,000 was going to England’s over-worked and harassed nurses, but instead £1 billion is going to the much more needy DUP, a political party that somehow managed to squander £500 million and laugh it off.

      PS: Chris has altered his style radically. (Joke)

      You weekend reading:

      A bad movie made good: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-hwc
      A good architect made great: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-hdx

    20. Robert Louis says:

      Antyhetty at 1231pm

      Yes ,but never forget the rule regarding the oil of Scotland. If the price is low, then it is worthless, and a burden to Scotland, so best keep giving it to England for free. If it is worth a lot, then it is ‘volatile’, and a liability to Scotland, so best keep giving it to London for free. Oh, and their is none left, regardless of the price.

      Sadly, so many, many Scots have fallen for that tosh, and liars like Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale like to keep Scots thinking it is true.

    21. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Ken500

      O/T, sort of.

      I must check out what educational changes are being proposed then, if the tories approve, is that a good thing!

      Teachers get very little if any training in working with kids with learning support needs. One day I think, in working with kids with autism. No wonder that they look down on parents when their child is not coping with the school regime. You have to be around children with autism in many different settings, to understand the complexities, and the difficulties. They are though a delight to be around, but not in a class of 25-30 other kids. If I could go back in time some of the teachers would get some very harsh words from me and the Labour council would be taken to court quite frankly, for their utter neglect in providing appropriate support.

      On that note, it’s a sunny day, time to get out, and hope we can escape this dreadful so called union soon, because Scotland will be shafted even more if not, just look at the UKok gov now, scary stuff.

    22. Lorna Miller says:

      It’s not by chris its by Lorna Miller x

    23. geeo says:

      @Arthetty

      My daughter is a nursery teacher (she is 21) and she was almost in tears yesterday as the youngster with autism in her nursery was on his last day.

      She adored him, like you say in your post, great to be around.

      Luckily she will still see him for a few months after the summer as she is to transition him into his new school class.

      That in itself is a good thing, as the change from a small nursery into a huge school setting is obviously a huge challenge for autistic kids.

      Yet another thing Scottish education gets right.

    24. Ken500 says:

      The attainment levels are not being compared like with like. The PISA results are flawed based on a elitist system not an inclusive education system. A nonsense. Attainment levels are reflected in lifestyle changes. A move to older parenthood. The tests are a nonsense. They do not reflects on changes in society.

      The unionists/greens must never been in a school. They should go back to school. Their ignorance is outstanding. Most teachers like their jobs. The schools are happy and well run. Most pupils are extremely well looked after and happy in schools.

      The Scottish education system is one of the best in the world. A higher % of pop go to Uni. There are more Unis pro rata. Colleges and apprenticeships. Trades people can earn a comfortable living. Scotland needs more professional people.

      All negatives in the Scottish educational system is down to Unionists/greens in every way.They are ignorant and try to manipulated figures to provide nonsense. They are responsible for cuts in educational funding. Ross Thomson and Tom Mason were responsible for cutting education funding and cutting additional needs funding. They are total, absolutely, lying hypocrites. They cut educational and additional needs funding. The Conservative are a disgrace. They cut education and additional needs funding in the North East. Tom Mason is a liar. They Tory/coalition in Aberdeenshire, including Tom Mason wanted to cut the education bill £4Million. Instead of putting up council tax a small % for the wealthiest. The Tory voters in the rural areas will be upset when their schools are shut. They have cut all the additional needs facilities. The ‘One stop Shop’ etc. The SNP has stopped some of the cuts. The unionists are appalling planning to build more houses without the planned school building. Making the schools totally over crowded. It is the Unionists who are doing this. They are causing the problems. Then trying to blame the SNP Gov illegitimately. The Unionists are causing the problems. They are the problem.

      The PISA study is comparing an elitist poor, abusive education none inclusive education systems in other countries. The PISA comparison is a nonsense. Some politicians can’t even go on the internet for five to ten minutes to find out the facts. They are not fit for public office. Appalling standards. It is just inbelieveable how ignorabt and arrogant they can be. They know absolutely nothing about education or the Scottish education system. Appalling ignorance. They have never been near or inside schools.

    25. One_Scot says:

      Lol, has the Rev taught you nothing about reading the small print?

    26. Fred says:

      Every village from Drongan tae Denny will be missing its idiot today as they congregate on The Green. The mono-brow is much in evidence & the Toon & the Barras are quiet as folk stay away & trade suffers.

    27. Capella says:

      Hi Lorna – some of us did notice. good demolition of these two charlatans. 🙂

    28. Ken500 says:

      The Unionist/green coalition. Green casting vote for Office and remuneration. Cut education and special needs funding in the North East To waste £Million/Billions on grotesque projects of no value. A Muse grotesque non mandated project wasting £200Million of public money. Ruining the City Centre and causing further traffic chaos. How did it get through planning. Graft and corruption. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Borrowing and spending getting into £1.2Billion of debt. Illegally selling the City off on the stock market. Refusing a gift of £80Millions to predestrianise the City. The Greens are total hypocrites.

      The Tories have been illegally taxing the Scottish Oil sector at 40% since Jan 2016. Losing Scotland £Billions of revenues and thousands of jobs. £4Billion a year which could have been spent on education and essential services.

    29. Artyhetty says:

      re;geeo@1.25

      🙂
      For sure the world is a challenging place to negotiate our way around, for kids and adults with autism, it can be very much more of a challenge. Not all can cope in the bigger school, I really feel for some kids, and sadly mainstream, one size fits all really can create more problems for learning than should be the case. Good, understanding, patient and non judgemental teachers are a godsend though. Good on your daughter for being so caring.

    30. Liz g says:

      Lorna Miller @ 1.21
      Great cartoon, espically love the details on the tree.
      Can you….or anyone else who knows…..tell me the significance of the pattern on the Foster woman’s blouse?
      Fleur de …. something…I’m thinking ???
      But what is the connection if any to the DUP?

    31. Fred says:

      @ Liz, thae things are the missin aeroplanes from the new carrier!

    32. Ken500 says:

      Aberdeen City unionists/Tory/Labour/green plus one LibDem now Independent coalition council liars. 130 teachers short are now letting teacher take voluntary redundancy. Cutting jobs after getting the City into £1.2Billions of unnecessary debt. On grotesque non mandated projects of no value ruining the City centre and causing traffic chaos. Appalling behaviour. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. People were protesting in the street to no avail.

      They cut the education and additional needs services and budget. They do not give a damn about education or children. Total hypocrites in every way. All they care about is lining their pockets with public money along with their cronies. They are despicable. Standing up in Parliament and telling a pack of lies. Knowingly. Tom Mason and Ross Thomson are liars. Along with the rest of them. Conceited, self centred, hypocritical, greedy liars who bring Scotland down. Unfit for public office.
      Useless idiots. Poor representation as people will find to their cost.

    33. mogabee says:

      I see that Chris Cairns better watch out as this ‘toon by Lorna Miller is hitting the right spot!

      WoS is certainly attracting great talent.

    34. galamcennalath says:

      Nice cartoon 🙂

      … or perhaps, not such a nice image.

      To put the DUP ‘bribe’ in context, the Northern Ireland Assembly annual budget is just £11.5bn.

      So a lot of extra dosh being pumped in to curry favour.

      Scaled up to Scottish levels it would pay for the A9 upgrade! Or, several Forth Crossings! (I think)

    35. Smallaxe says:

      liz g;

      The arms of Norroy and Ulster King of Arms were devised in 1980 based on elements from the arms of the two former offices. They are blazoned: Quarterly Argent and Or a Cross Gules on a Chief per pale Azure and Gules a Lion passant guardant Or crowned with an open Crown between a Fleur-de-lis and a Harp Or.

      Peace Always liz, my dear Friend

    36. Ken500 says:

      It can just take one or two days training in additional needs to make things clearer and helps all pupils. The psychology is extremely simple. The knowledge just needs to be explained. Other teachers can specialist. Necessary knowledge is easy to understand. How can teachers manage if they or some parents are ignorant of the facts. Most Teachers get no additional needs training at all. Unless they can access it. Or go on courses. Or do specialist training. This can make diagnosis difficult, causing more unnecessary dificulties. It can leave people struggling on alone without easily access support. It is the unionist/green local authorities that are cutting the support. Then lying about it and blaming the (SNP) Gov.

      Went off on one. Provoked. It is infuriating seeing people standing up and totally lying about the part they played in the proceedings. Breathtaking hypocrisy. They must think folk are totally ill informed or as ignorant as they are. Or hoping it is so.

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      So, far-right neo-liberalism and sectarian bigotry appears to represent contemporary British values. I’m glad we’re getting to the heart of British nationalism, as Brexit threatens to diminish the socio-economic reality of all Scots, simply to satisfy English nationalist exceptionalism.

      The people of Scotland have a moral duty to themselves and the rest of the world, to defend Scotland against London’s increasingly grubby and unhinged authoritarianism.

      The Avalanches – Frontier Psychiatrist
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEcE

    38. Ken500 says:

      According to recent UK Gov accounts which are difficult to decipher. NI was getting £42Billion of spending. To keep them quiet? That was a while ago. Will go on the UK Gov accounts again. They try and keep it hidden to deceive. They once got a one off extra payment of £12Billion to support the DUP bigotry. Illegal discrimination ruining their own/world world economy. Their bigotry is unbelievable. Like stepping back in time. The 12th of July carry on is unbelievable and illegal. They shoot up their own supporters house/estates if they take down the flags UJ after a month. 1930’s Fascists? They get away with murder. They do not obey UK/EU/International Law. They are a law unto themselves but expect and get £Billions of UK taxpayers money. Greedy, nasty ignorant. Not nice and dim. They get away with it, again and again. For Tory votes in Westminster. Destroying world peace.

    39. Phronesis says:

      What a great way for our senior citizens to take up communal exercise -marching all over Glasgow. One hopes that they are wearing hip protectors though – if anyone falls (these potholes can be quite tricky) they may suffer a fragility fracture. The elderly have to be really careful with their mobility particularly if there’s a degree of cognitive impairment.

      Presumably we can charge the UKOK-DUP alliance for all treatment received in our hard pressed Scottish nationalised health service for treating all the exercise related chest pain, alcohol related head injuries, the occasional glassing and of course the extra resource that the Police, ambulance services provide, not to mention the decreased revenue to Glasgow’s commercial sector because most sensible individuals are staying well away to avoid getting a kicking if they cross the line. These senior citizens can be quite vicious.

      Do they have to march in orange? It’s certainly quite an upbeat colour but quite boring in monochrome unless you mix it up with other colours. Green and white would be nice and a rainbow infusion- it would be so much more eye catching, like the colours of the march in NI today

      https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/thousands-expected-belfast-march-marriage-equality

    40. jfngw says:

      I see Ruth Davidson has tweeted that she is taking a fortnight off, rumour has it the she enjoys a good walk whilst away.

    41. Lorna Miller says:

      @liz g it’s a flier-de-lis and that whole panel is copied from a Union Jack costume. @Smallaxe thanks for that detailed description you’ve educated me!

    42. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING: Orange Walk rioting outside Bridge Street Underground Glasgow.

      But they don’t care.

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 1 July, 2017 at 11:58 am:

      “They just ooze charm these wee leprechauns with their magical money tree, spreading mischief wherever they go. If we believe in fairy tales they can keep this jig going.”

      Look again, Capella. Chris Cairns has some competition in the form of –

      “LORNA MILLER”.

      Nice Work Lorna, an’ mair Powere tae yer pent brush an pens.

      All I could find out with a quick google was:-
      https://www.facebook.com/lorna.watson.583/posts/10152706951668552

    44. Hamish100 says:

      Passed a wee wummin having a fag smiling saying we urra people on her mobility scooter festooned in the butchers apron flags. Not once have I seen her at my church or any others but she does support a glesga FItba team and that’s enough to make her a prod. Sad isn’t it.

    45. pic says:

      Wow…I have furry porn…This is something beyond…..

      *has nightmares*

    46. Indeed it is and the more alert Wingers spotted the changes in style immediately, Lorna.

      Thank you.

    47. Liz g says:

      Smallaxe @ 2.1
      Thanks Smallaxe, good grief they do like their symbolism don’t they.
      Will be so glad when there’s nae Union to be loyal to.
      What will they do then?
      They are already trying to justify these marches as culture,how many more stupid reasons will they invent to march to defend a Union from the Pope.
      A Pope who really isnay interested….and a Union that disnay exist anymore…..
      That’s nearly as stupid as marching for the Island next doors battle… Ah mean people in Ireland march for that battle,so why do Scots have to do it too….Have we nae battle’s of our own?
      Are Scottish battle’s no as valuable?
      Bizzare disent even cover it.
      Stay well my dear friend.

      Fred @ 2.02
      Aye and when ah see thay two, ah can think of a few places tae stick that new carrier as well…..but oor Smallaxe says “always peace”….so peace it is Fred.

    48. gordoz says:

      Have to say encountered this bile in Glasgow CC once, never again. Really thought that this guff was on its way out.

      Total & utter embarrassment for all Scots, (but those who take part), then again they’re the Brits among our numbers and owe true allegiance elsewhere.

      Sad that people still need to suffer this bunch of religious weirdos with their sashes & gloves (all very alpha male – sure ?).

      Britain’s finest & eternal shame on display, (in Scotland 2017 right enough)

    49. Macart says:

      Neatly done Lorna.

    50. Graf Midgehunter says:

      If you click on Lorna’s name at 1.21 pm,blue link 🙂 you’ll get to Lorna’s website.

      For those who are too lazy, here it is:

      http://cargocollective.com/lornamiller

      So watch it “Holiday boy” an’ “Moodie man”, you’ve got someone hot on yer heels. 😉

    51. Breeks says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      1 July, 2017 at 2:46 pm
      “So, far-right neo-liberalism and sectarian bigotry appears to represent contemporary British values. I’m glad we’re getting to the heart of British nationalism, as Brexit threatens to diminish the socio-economic reality of all Scots, simply to satisfy English nationalist exceptionalism…”

      I agree. In 2014 we had a grassroots YES presence everywhere, whereas Unionism couldn’t mobilise enough people to fill a phonebox. It’s almost like the 2014 vote never got to the heart of the matter on two scores; it never got to grips with sovereignty, but it also never drew this uglier side of British Nationalism out into the daylight.

      Better Together ran an AstroTurf campaign in 2014 and got away with it, but that isn’t going to happen again. If Unionism isn’t transparent this time, it won’t have any integrity, and when it is transparent, it can’t hide its ignorance and bigotry.

      Part of me dreads it, part of me knows it needs to be done. Scotland has to choose between progressive enlightenment and Independence, or the grubby embarrassment of narrow minded 19th Century British Imperialism in the raw.

      This time it’s for real, and it’s beginning to feel like it.

    52. Brian Powell says:

      Interesting that May does a deal with the DUP, few days later, BBC televising the marches in NI, John Beattie interviewing the head of the OO on Radio Scotland. They’ve had decades to do that.

      Ignorant, empty-headed shititude abounds.

    53. Valerie says:

      Great work, Lorna, and how brilliant to welcome a female cartoonist.

      I love Arlenes dress, and great detail in the magic money tree, looking very distressed.

    54. Thepnr says:

      @Ken500

      You appear to have a bit of an obsession with the Greens that just won’t go away will it? Your a great supporter of President Trump and believe his policies will be good for us. I find that strange but maybe that’s just me.

      Despite what you have said in your posts I think it worth pointing out that there are a grand total of 19 Green Councillors in Scotland from a total of 1227.

      What power do any of them hold in any of the 32 councils that make up Scotland? None at all, absolutely zero, zilch, nada.

      http://www.cosla.gov.uk/councils/political-control

      They are the SNP’s only allies in Holyrood, would you prefer no allies at all? Your attitude towards the Greens is something of a surprise as don’t forget that without Green support in Holyrood a bill for a second referendum would not have been passed.

      I welcome support for Independence from most but not all quarters. Those that vote Green too and succeed in having Councillors or MSP’s elected on their behalf have a right to vote for policies that they believe in which might not be the ploicies that the SNP support.

      Basically how others might choose to vote is none of my business, getting our own house in order is more of a concern to me and maybe then we will change enough minds to come over to the side of the good guys and in turn increase support for an Independent Scotland.

      In my view that support includes those that voted for the Greens.

    55. Col says:

      A really lovely girl from my work arrived in today shaken and upset. Turns out she tried to get through one of the marches today inbetween the bands. Someone on the march screamed in her face raising his fist as if he was going to punch her but lucky for her they never. I have heard before about folk getting a kicking for trying to cut through.

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      gordoz
      Re. religious weirdos. It’s got a lot to do with personality type, IMHO, especially those of an authoritarian bent. Such characters tend to lap up the prejudice produced by our politicians and disseminated by our media.

      N.B. Not all weirdos are religious, etc…. 🙂

      Understanding Predjudice
      http://www.understandingprejudice.org/anthol.htm

    57. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 1 July, 2017 at 3:26 pm:

      ” … Have we nae battle’s of our own?
      Are Scottish battle’s no as valuable?”

      Weel, Liz g, wi dae hae ane or twa o oor ain battles. Here are ane or twa o thaim. Mind these ir jist frae the second Scottish War of Independence and thir wis ane or twa in the first war o independence tae.


      12th August 1332 Battle of Dupplin Moor;
      17th December 1332 Battle of Annan;
      19th July 1333 Battle of Halidon Hill;
      30th November 1335 Battle of Culblean (Kilblain);
      Battle of Neville’s Cross, the Froissart of Louis of Gruuthuse;
      17th October 1346 Battle of Neville’s Cross
      25th June 1380 Battle of Benrig (sometimes called Horse Rigg);
      5th August 1388 Battle of Otterburn;
      28th September 1396 Battle of the North Inch
      22nd June 1402 Battle of Nesbit or Nisbet Moor
      14th September 1402 Battle of Homildon Hill (sometimes called Humbleton Hill);
      24th July 1411 Battle of Harlaw;
      22nd July 1415 Battle of Yeavering;
      1436 Battle of Piperdean;
      June 1429 Battle of Lochaber;
      23rd October 1448 Battle of Sark (also known as the Battle of Lochmaben Stone);
      18th May 1452 Battle of Brechin Muir;
      1454 Battle of Clachnaharry;
      1st May1455 Battle of Arkinholm;
      3rd August 1460 Siege of Roxburgh;
      Circa 1464 Battle of Tannach Moor;
      22nd July 1484 Battle of Lochmaben Fair;
      11th June 1488 Battle of Sauchieburn;
      11th October 1489 Battle of Gartalunane;
      Circa 1488/89 Naval Battles off Dunbar and Dundee;
      9th September 1513 Battle of Flodden (also known as the Battle of Branxton Moor);
      24th July 1526 Battle of Melrose
      4th September 1526 Battle of Linlithgow Bridge;
      24th August 1542 Battle of Haddon Rig;
      24th November 1542 Battle of Solway Moss
      15th July 1544 Battle of the Shirts (also known as the Battle of Kinloch-Lochy);
      27th February 1545 Battle of Ancrum Moor;
      10th September 1547 Battle of Pinkie Cleugh (Black Saturday);
      18th April 1548 – 14th September 1549 Siege of Haddington;
      15th June 1567 Battle of Carberry Hill;
      13th May 1568 Battle of Langside;
      3rd October 1594 Battle of Glenlivet ;
      7th February 1603 Battle of Glenfruin;
      1st September 1644 Battle of Tippermuir;
      13th September 1644 Battle of Aberdeen;
      2nd February 1645 Battle of Inverlochy;
      9th May 1645 Battle of Auldearn;
      2nd July 1645 Battle of Alford;
      16th August 1645 Battle of Kilsyth;
      12th June 1648 Battle of Mauchline Moor;
      17th – 19th August 1648 Battle of Preston;
      27th April 1650 Battle of Carbisdale;
      3rd September 1650 Battle of Dunbar;
      3rd September 1651 Battle of Worcester;
      20th July 1651 Battle of Inverkeithing;
      19th July 1654 Battle of Dalnspidal;
      26th November 1666 Battle of Rullion Green;
      1st June 1679 Battle of Drumclog;
      22nd June 1679 Battle of Bothwell Brigg;
      22nd July 1680 Battle of Airds Moss;
      August 1688 Battle of Mulroy (otherwise known as the Battle of Maol Ruadh);
      27th July 1689 Battle of Killiecrankie;
      21st August 1689 Siege of Dunkeld;
      1st May 1690 Battle of Cromdale;
      9th-14th November 1715 Battle of Preston;
      13th November 1715 Battle of Sheriffmuir;
      10th June 1719 Battle of Glenshiel;
      21st September 1745 Battle of Prestonpans (also known as Battle of Tranent or Battle of Gladsmuir);
      23rd December 1745 Battle of Inverurie;
      17th January 1746 Battle of Falkirk Muir;
      15th April 1746 Battle of Littleferry (sometimes known as Battle of Bonnar Bridge);
      16th April 1746 Battle of Culloden.

      And you thought you knew your Scottish History did you?

    58. Fran says:

      @ Liz 3.26

      Aye Liz, I’ve always wondered why they don’t commemorate Cromdale, that was in 1690 too

    59. Foonurt says:

      Ah braw hing.

      Ye widnae want tae tak, yurr oappint peiy-poke, hame tae onnae thae twaw.

      Pious, pauchlin, leein erses.

    60. Fred says:

      Battle of Renfrew, 1164.
      Battle of Old Byland, 1322.
      Battle of Stanhope Park, 1327.
      Battle of the Butts, 1544.

    61. Liz g says:

      Col @ 4.21
      So sorry to hear about your friend,hope she is ok.

      For future reference and not because I am justifying what happened in any way.
      More in a knowledge is power kind of way.

      I have been told, that, people seem to assume that the band is THE walk….and most people would not dream of trying to cross through them.

      But the band’s are only hired to accompany THE walk,the actual WALK/PARADE is the lodge members themselves.
      This is why when normal people respectfully let the band’s pass and try to slip between the men (as they see it) following the band…..they get such a reaction.
      The Orange men feel they ARE the parade and THEIR ranks are not to be broken.

      I am assuming that you can explain the difference in the costumes of the two groups.
      But just to be sure…..the one’s you are supposed to view as the actual march,are the grown men willing to wear collar’s around their necks,in public.
      It’s for the love of a woman apparently,fair enough…but they intend to do the same thing for the love of her son..see now it’s gettin weird.
      Don’t be concerned though they will never get anywhere near this woman or her son,even if they are wearing their collar’s of obedience.

      The collar’s have badges and fringe’s…these men also sometimes have bowler hats …. mibbi king Billy Wiz a fan of these hats or invented them or something, I don’t know enough 16th century history to be sure..

      The Band is self explanatory…. going forward in an independent Scotland, I can forsee these men redefining their role as they guy’s who make the Village People look classy.
      Can you imagine how they get together to decide on their “look”, ah mean where do they buy these costumes??
      Is there a real Mr Ben?
      Do they get drunk and fight over the tassels and buttons and such?…anyhoo I digress….

      I hope that if you or your friend or anyone else reading this can’t avoid running into these parades you do at least know enough to keep yourselves safe.

    62. Legerwood says:

      More like
      the Bonfire of the Insanities
      Or
      The Bonfire of the Inanities.

      Except the end result is likely to be truly awful.

    63. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @4.28
      Looks like we are spoiled for choice Robert
      But if I had to pick one for Scotland to march for other than Culloden the one that changed everything … it would be Killicranky..
      And I’ll wager you can tell my why

    64. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      ALERT

      YouGov is polling on,among other things, who one might think would be a good replacement for Nicola Sturgeon.
      The destruction continues

    65. Valerie says:

      @Col

      What a shame your colleague was upset for trying to exercise HER right to use the public roads.

      At Liz g,

      I appreciate your motive in being helpful, or providing insight, but it’s really pure bullshit.

      I’m afraid having that knowledge about knuckle draggers, does not give the threatened lady, any kind of power or benefit. It is entirely her right to cross the road, to get to her destination, without being threatened. I’m sure she waited for a break, and wasn’t trying to barge anyone.

      I know you’re not justifying it, but we really must not give any legitimacy to this threatening parade of religious hatred. Their rationale is drivel.

    66. Street Andrew says:

      That’s a beautifully executed cartoon, Lorna. Nice work.

    67. seanair says:

      It’s the hypocrisy of these Orange animals which Is atrocious. Perhaps YouGov could do a poll on how many Orange members/walkers attend Church of Scotland or other Protestant services regularly.

    68. Scottish Steve says:

      Read Orangemen on the Herald comments celebrating this “festival of culture” today in Glasgow. Apparently anyone who is critical of these marches or wishes them banned is a nasty bigot. I could hear the Orange lips trembling behind the screens.

      How long does marching season last? I need to know for how many weekends I need to avoid the city centre.

    69. Smallaxe says:

      liz g & Lorna Millar

      Fleur de Lys/ Flower of Lily;

      The Sash?
      Sashes have been common items of military costume for centuries and King William is reported to have worn an orange-coloured sash of “the purest watered silk” at the Battle of the Boyne

      Bowler Hat: Why?
      The bowler was probably originally regarded as epitomising the British gentleman and also as a symbol of authority worn by the foreman on building sites, or in Belfast shipyards. However, the bowler was designed originally as protective headgear.

      Orange:
      The colour orange is stimulating and revitalising, seeing it in a dream may be compensating for a lack of energy or desire in waking life.

      Or more probably a lack of brain cells.:-)

      Peace Always

    70. The Dog Philosopher says:

      Here is the significance of an Orange Walk in a nutshell:

      They march to celebrate the fact that they are the loyal subjects of a Protestant monarch.

      This situation permits all who take part to see themselves as a sort of UberBrit, as demonstrated in chants such as ‘We are the People’ – the subtext of which reads something like: everyone else is inferior (non-people, ergo subhuman) and are allowed to exist only through our good grace and tolerance.

      Remind you of something?

    71. Legerwood says:

      Smallaxe @ 6.29 pm

      The Orange in the Orange Order refers to King William, he of the Battle of the Boyne, who was a Prince of Orange, the Dutch Royal House. Hence the colour of their sashes.

    72. Smallaxe says:

      Legerwood;

      I was aware of that, I was just supplying a little extra information, my Friend.

      Peace Always

    73. Smallaxe says:

      O/T/ Scottish History; From the unplucky 13 thread.

      Here’s a couple of links to some Scottish history, I don’t know exactly how good they are because I only learned about 1066 and some king or other burning cakes when I was at school!

      http://www.unknownscottishhistory.com/articlefive.php
      http://www.electricscotland.com/history/1820/1820_rising.htm

      Ah’m a dunce me, so ah um.
      🙂

      Peace Always

    74. t42 says:

      EU court of human rights has just sentenced a baby to death.
      If ever there was proof that the EU are anti-humans and pro-governments. This is it.

      Snp – pro EU
      Green – pro EU
      SLab – pro EU
      SCons – pro EU
      FibDems – pro EU

    75. galamcennalath says:

      t42 says:

      EU court of human rights

      There is no such organisation. Do you an the European Court of Human Rights, which has nothing to do with the EU.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights

    76. Liz g says:

      Valerie @ 5.54
      Well while ye will get nae argument from me about the reasoning being bullshit.
      And I was trying to phrase it as general terms,as possible,but…

      As things stand at this moment in time…it would be a mistake to advise anybody that they have the Right to cross the road in the middle of the parade/march.
      And supporting them doesn’t stop the fact that..
      They would get lifted if they insisted.
      As the ones in the wrong..and they would be.

      I don’t know all the in and outs of it…but that’s apart of the permissions that the OO seek when getting licensed to have the march.
      Ye couldn’t have insisted that you get to drive your car down one of the closed road’s for example!
      It’s common sense when ye think about it….ye canny organise a march that people can just barge through when they want.
      The rights and wrongs of an Irish march on Scottish Street’s is a whole other subject..as is the attitude of these people towards others who don’t realise the construct of these marches being so appalling.
      But it is what it is Valerie, and sometimes knowing why you got a nasty reaction “”why did this happen”” can help,and also understanding why it’s not your right in that circumstance to cross the street,may help someone else from being abused by people who lets face it,are just looking for an excuse.. don’t ye think!

    77. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      COSLA leadership. Labour councillor elected to head COSLA. Apparently this follows the tradition of the leader always being a Labour Councillor – according to the Herald anyway.

      From today’s Herald:
      “”The leader of the council’s [Aberdeenshire] Labour group, Ms Evison was elected president of the organisation following a meeting of its full convention in Edinburgh yesterday morning.
      She succeeds North Ayrshire’s David O’Neill and continues the tradition of Labour councillors holding the post.
      Following the meeting, Ms Evison said: “I am absolutely delighted to be elected president of Cosla, I am delighted that my peers have put their faith in me and it is a job I will relish.”””

      Apologies if this has already been reported.

    78. Liz g says:

      Smallaxe @ 6..54
      As some were saying on one of the other threads Smallaxe,
      We badly need a reliable historical resource
      There’s so much missing or confusing in our own narrative it’s almost criminal.

    79. galamcennalath says:

      History. Twenty years ago I went looking for a good childfen’s history book, Scottish of course.

      The bookshop, in Scotland, was full of books featuring Plantagenets and Tudors and other Foreign Devils whose only contribution was to frequently wreak havoc upon this nation!

      A reasonable book was found, and although it did cover Scottish history in simple words and pictures, there was a fairytale tone to it. As if, somehow, is was all mythology rather than our nation’s story.

      I must admit I haven’t looked recently, but it might be an interesting challenge to identify a good honest and factual book for young minds.

      What a nation state of affairs, you might say!

    80. Rock says:

      colin alexander,

      “Patrick Harvie MSP of the Scottish Greens said:”

      “I’m glad that the First Minister says she is committed to that principle, but if a Bill for a referendum is shelved until late next year, there is no chance that the people will have the opportunity to make their choice until after we’ve been dragged out of Europe, and out of the single market too. That means lost jobs, lost rights and lost opportunities.”

      For once, I agree with Patrick Harvie.

      Or maybe he reads WOS and agrees with me:

      Rock (28th June – Slight reprise)

      “The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”

    81. Rock says:

      We laugh at them at our expense.

    82. Rock says:

      Proud Cybernat,

      “BREAKING: Orange Walk rioting outside Bridge Street Underground Glasgow.”

      The thugs’ marches should be banned, in my view.

      Is there any “reasonable person” around who can argue that they should be allowed to continue?

    83. Rock says:

      Thepnr,

      “They are the SNP’s only allies in Holyrood”

      Apart, from the independence referendum vote, the Greens vote AGAINST the SNP on every issue, as far as I know.

    84. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      1 July, 2017 at 7:58 pm
      History. Twenty years ago I went looking for a good childfen’s history book, Scottish of course.

      Write your own one! Start at the beginning of Scotland, our nation. Its nearly 2000 years older and lot more exciting than whatever it is the bizarro world of the OO is meant to be.

      Start with the Scots that slaughtered the might of the Roman Empire. Visit the greatest house of loot and booty, the British Museum, merry olde London. They have a huge collection of Iron Age Scotland artifacts and they sometimes show things found and declared theirs but they are not. They belong to Scotland.

      They have extraordinary bronze arm torcs, worn by Scottish warriors around the bicep. They are spectacular in size and design. Nae c_nt f_cked with Scots. Until about 1700 years later, when we were sold for English gold by a parcel of rogues. Much like the gits currently selling us all our media.

      Our Scots fore fathers would be mighty annoyed at us today, OO, BBC, shitheed tories, red and blue, the lot.

      So start there and work back:D

    85. ben madigan says:

      @Smallaxe and others who were discussing Orange order regalia

      here’s the explanation

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/the-orange-order-a-pseudo-military-organization/

      Please remember the OO was founded in 1795.
      All this King Billy in the Battle of the Boyne was “a constructed myth” to counteract the republicanism of the United irishmen which derived from the french and American Revolutions and then pursued with even greater vigour after Catholic Emancipation (votes for catholics) in 1829.

      I also wonder why, even today in NI and Scotland, no one ever queries the OO method of exerting political power by piggy-backing its way into Councils, parliaments, assemblies and so forth on the backs of Unionist parties.

      As far as I am concerned – if the OO wants to exert political power they should form their own party, put forward their own manifesto and candidates and then canvass for votes like all other political parties.

    86. Ken500 says:

      Sure Ms Evison (Labour/some Independents (secret Tories or ex unionist parties) supported the SNP when they briefly managed a coalition (one member short). On Aberdeenshire Council. Ms Evison was one of the good representatives who supported Education and proper social services. Putting council tax up slightly for the wealthiest, She still does.

      Unfortunately the grouping lost members at the last Council elections. The Unionists lied about everything. The Useless Libdems came back and formed a coalition with the Tories. Not the SNP who have better policies. It is possible the SNP grouping have stopped the Tories from cutting education budget etc. They were going to cut it £4Million. They had previously cut additional needs support. The ‘one stop’ shop which offered support and information has bern closed. Along with other additional needs support groups. Shut bases.

      The Tory/Unionists haven’t a clue how to manage a budget. They are so useless and incompetent. Out of touch. The calibre of some of them is questionable. The nonsense they spout. A total out of touch embarrassment. Some people don’t realise for whom, or what they are voting. They need to do some research.

      Wait until the Tory voters find their rural schools being closed. Burnett has been hanging about the wind turbine project. He supports fracking. US fracked gas is coming in to Gangemouth. A huge storage facility.

      Alex Salmond did more for the North East than anyone. Got the essential AWPR built. The Bay wind turbines financed by EU investment funding. The Golf Developments started. Bringing visitors and tourism. The airport expansion. Saving flights and money, no overnight stays. Less stressful journeys. Anywhere but Heathrow congestion.

      The Tory/Unionists have been taxing the Oil sector at 40% since Jan 2016. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs in Scotland. Scotland could have had near full employment and plenty of funding for essential services. Without Tory/Unionist mismanagement..

    87. heedtracker says:

      In 2014 progressive liberal The Guardian shysters gave the OO massive coverage. Today not a peep out of those staggering hypocrites, British hypocrites, the Greatest.

      Just this,

      Ruth Davidson
      Ruth Davidson mystifies Twitter with Gillian Anderson stocking post
      Scottish Tory leader signs off on holiday with picture of X-Files star in stockings and stilettos, prompting a mixed response

      Far Graun cry from their 2014, my creepy bigots, right or wrong.
      http://archive.is/Vqg4e

    88. Smallaxe says:

      ben madigan says:

      “As far as I am concerned – if the OO wants to exert political power they should form their own party, put forward their own manifesto and candidates and then canvass for votes like all other political parties.”

      Agreed, ben, but I’m sure that even they know that their manifesto would be the rock that they perish on.

      Peace Always

    89. Valerie says:

      @Liz g

      Given the OO assert that they have ‘freedom’ to march, much of which they like to quote from international standards, it’s not supposed to curtail my right to cross a street. It’s crossing a street, not obstructing.

      Crossing does not warrant threatening behaviour. I have a right to freedom from fear.

      As far as I’m aware, the parade organisers certainly have to comply with route, stewards, safety etc., but closing roads is a formal police decision, which I wouldn’t defy, anymore than I would ignore police instruction to turn around at an accident.

      Can you imagine an Indy March, subject to the same compliance, saying we have a right to ‘deal’ with pedestrians as we see fit?

      I’m struggling to see how an Orange marcher acquires the right to threaten anyone?

      Or are they exempt from the norms of accepted, lawful behaviour?

      I think it’s important to understand.

    90. sinky says:

      O/T Anyone know what happened to the Yes2 app which was a great central source of the latest pro Indy website postings

    91. Brian Powell says:

      Nothing mystifying about Davidson’s tweet, it’s ‘shock jock, look at me’, a tactic.

    92. Ann says:

      Brilliant. Just as good with a brush as Chris.

    93. Thepnr says:

      @sinky

      Not sure if it is but the Yes2 Hub app seems to be what your describing. Android version here.

      https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scot.gabber.android.gabber&hl=en

    94. mike d says:

      O/t just seen celebrations for ‘Canada 150 ‘ Canadians celebrating their 150th anniversary as a nation. What do you think of that proudscotbuts? Oh i forgot your happy being a region,not a nation .

    95. Ken500 says:

      For a lists of good, relevant history reference books. Just get in touch with a History uni dept or educational centre. They have book lists. They will give out a list. They give students lists on all subjects. The Uni libraries are full of the books. Often they are being used frequently. A book list, in print, can be ordered from any book store. Just write or e-mail them. They will be impressed with any interest and willing to help. If they are in print. They can be ordered on the Internet, but sometimes they have to be ordered through specialist book shops. They can be e-mailed. Some University libraries allow people to join them for a fee. Public libraries can order books if they are available. Some Uni’s allow people to sit in by arrangement for lectures (no exams). For a fee? On some courses.

      Medievial Scottish is really interesting. Place names etc. It all connects. These people were going out into the world. Trading and intermarrying etc. Going to Rome and the Middle East. etc

      Abbeys were hives of industry. Centres of writing, reading etc. Kept bees, and made wine, Kept sheep and made cloth from the wool. Self sufficent. Burghs were situated on rivers for water. Higher ground (Castles) for protection. At cross roads for markets and trade. Gathering places.

    96. Ken500 says:

      Is Davidson tweet real, or a fake account?

    97. sinky says:

      Thepnr says
      Thanks for the link but the Android App still didn’t open

    98. Ghillie says:

      Oh Lorna! That poor wee tree looks so miserable.

    99. Croompenstein says:

      Trying to explain this shite to my wee boy.. I have a wee rescue dog and when we take her out she is on her lead at all times as she cannot thole other dogs..

      Now, there are folk who leave their dogs walk off the lead in the belief that their precious pet wouldn’t harm a fly never thinking that there are other people who may not like or even have a phobia for dogs. My wee dog always go’s for them and is always branded the baddie, the bad dog even though she is on her lead..

      I told him that folk who walk or participate in these parades are like the selfish dog walkers who don’t care about others and let their dogs shit all over the pavements and parks.

    100. ben madigan says:

      @Valerie – Yes I did miss that post.I will go through it in time but I’ve just looked at the first few comments and noticed Donald MacKenzie put forward questions to ask on a FOI request to a number of Councils:-

      1) How many elected members are members of the Orange Order?

      2) Of those who are, did all of them declare this on the documentation that was part of the process of them be eligible to stand as a candidate?

      3) If not all of them did so, how many did not?

      I presume the aim is to attempt to see if they were elected under false pretenses

      I know that in the NI Assembly many unionist MLAs are members of the Loyal orders. Some declare they are, some don’t but then photos emerge of them in their sashes at orange marches.

      as far as regards intimidation of people who try and cross the street somebody with a legal background might care to look into whether they have that right and if not a case should be taken against them.

      The OO have always behaved like that in NI –

      Several years ago I myself was once beaten with their maces (big sticks) when I tried to cross a side street between one contingent and the next several yards behind. I did make a police complaint but got nowhere but legislation may have changed since then and be more in favour of ordinary decent pedestrians!!!

    101. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T
      Anyone else checked out Scot goes Pop tonight?
      Two post-election GB wide polls published by
      Opinium and Survation and two wildly different
      results concerning the Scot sub samples.

    102. Liz g says:

      Valerie @ 9.17
      Well, how I think it works is..
      They asked for and gained the right to march on that day and on that route…..
      The police who had a role in agreeing that the march could go ahead,then, have a duty to facilitate it.
      That means that anyone disrupting the march can be either prevented from doing so and/or arrested.

      The confusion comes in when ordinary people don’t realise that it is not a gap in the parade and those are not just followers of the band,but rather They ARE the parade.

      Those marchers are absolutely Not allowed to threaten or hurt anyone who attempted to “break” their ranks.
      But we both know that is no exactly how it happens.

      What they are allowed to do is to try to prevent the law being broken and/or like any other citizen hold someone until the police arrive to deal with the situation, using reasonable force.

      If I had to I would indeed say that this so called confusion could be easily cleared up….and by now it could be widely known “that”is not a gap in the march,and the fact that it hasn’t been looks deliberate…..

      Think of it (because they certainly do) as a military parade,you wouldn’t cross between the soilders after the band passed !
      This is different kind of event from the march we had a few weeks ago and from the one in London today,those you could weave yer way across but not these one’s..

      A few years back,the steward’s on those marches did actually carry sticks and the police didn’t bat an eyelid when the public got whacked, that was how you learned to give proper respect to the OO…but that was when they were a powerful force in Scotland,and people a good deal more compliant.
      But even so to put that in context.
      Nobody batted an eyelid either about the belt in school and domestic violence…

      They are no more above the law now than you or I Valarie,any disruption to their march and they have to leave it to the police…and they are also like everyone else liable to be filmed if they stepped out of line.

      The main dispute as far as I can see is that they are NOT military and their marches should not be conducted as though they are,they should have to march like everyone else.

      Hopefully that helps…..and I hope you know I am not defending them,just explaining how I see it.

    103. Croompenstein says:

      @miked

      O/t just seen celebrations for ‘Canada 150 ‘ Canadians celebrating their 150th anniversary as a nation. What do you think of that proudscotbuts? Oh i forgot your happy being a region,not a nation

      Here’s the First Ministers message mike..

      https://twitter.com/ScotGovFM/status/881082476977725440

      She is as sharp as a tack although there are some fuckers on here lately questioning her judgement.. check this thread and see some of the bile and pish we all have to put up with but we will triumph over this shite.. Happy 10th SNP gov

      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/881145751786704897

    104. Chick McGregor says:

      These marches do make one of the best arguments against normal levels of self-government for Scotland, but not, perhaps, in the way they intend.

    105. Jock McDonnell says:

      2 Threads back, Smallaxe posted this:
      https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-2836

      It says: ‘legally speaking, the UK parliament is sovereign and can decree whatever it chooses’

      No reference, no evidence, just assertion.
      Even learned Lord Cooper couldn’t find any reason to justify such a claim.
      Just pish, its only as sovereign as we allow it to be.

    106. Robert Peffers says:

      @t42 says: 1 July, 2017 at 7:04 pm:

      “EU court of human rights has just sentenced a baby to death.
      If ever there was proof that the EU are anti-humans and pro-governments. This is it.”

      I’ve read some really idiotic comments by numpties with agendas on Wings but this one must be the most idiotic to date.

      This bloody idiot is accusing the Highest court in the UK and the Highest court in Europe of sentencing baby Charlie to death. In point of fact Baby Charlie is already dead but his vital auto-senses are being artificially provided by machines. Without the machines the baby has no vital signs and is basically brain dead.

      There is no known cure for what ails the child and all those machines are doing is prolonging the baby’s suffering. That is if the child’s brain is even capable of feelings. Yet this bloody numptie is using this tragic case to further whatever crazy political agenda the idiot follows.

      It would be laughable if it were not so sad that the idiot doesn’t even know that the European Court of Human Rights is under the auspices of the Council of Europe and not the EU.

      Yet the idiot thinks it clever to use the unfortunate baby’s case for whatever crazed political ends the idiot hold.

    107. Thepnr says:

      @sinky

      Try this slightly different link than one I posted earlier This one I followed from the Yes2 Hub website itself, it installed for me on my android phone and seems to work fine.

      https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scot.gabber.android.gabber&rdid=scot.gabber.android.gabber

    108. Capella says:

      @ Robet Peffers – totally agree. It is a tragic situation and obviously the baby’s parents cannot let go. However, there is no doubt that this baby is already dead and switching off the machines would be merciful. They would then be allowed to grieve and, eventually, recover.

    109. One_Scot says:

      When you think about it, the society that we live in, in Scotland, is really messed up. It’s a wonder that more people don’t realise this.

    110. heedtracker says:

      OO is an alien culture in our country and the OO knows this full well.

      There’s nothing wrong with alien cultures, in any country. Its often the norm in a lot of western democracies. Its normally a clear sign of healthy tolerance and democracy, except when it comes to the OO. They want to rule Scotland, together with their queen, and all the rest of what currently rules Scotland, or at least thinks it does.

      For how much longer?

      Clearly just saying any of this out loud near any OO would get me a rather sound kicking. Its not good.

    111. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Liz g –

      Re O.O. march ‘stewards’ having sticks, that’s my understanding too, although I don’t have any photographic proof. They used to carry short batons/truncheons. Later, they took to carrying ‘umbrellas’, favouring sheathed collapsable versions (black of course) so that the image was similar.

    112. Smallaxe says:

      Jock McDonnell;

      I agree, Jock, I’m pleased that you and others are reading and examining the links, that’s why we post them.

      Thank you,

      Peace Always

    113. Capella says:

      @ Ben Madigan – someone tweeted on Stu’s twitter that people should flash mob OO marches. I had been thinking that myself.

      Say a young lady crossed in between gaps of the march – something that actually happened today – see upthread. The bullies threaten her. Suddenly hundreds of flash mob flood in and demonstrate solidarity. Would that not be a disruptive element which is beyond any conventional control yet delivers a messag of solidarity with ordinary people?

    114. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 10.37
      Well I did hear a story, years ago that the sticks were removed from the stewards after a packistani man was beaten to death in Coventry.
      For apparently the exact thing that we are discussing….trying to cross through after the band had passed.
      But I don’t know if it’s true,but I can’t imagine that they would just give up the sticks, they would need to be forced to!

    115. Still Positive says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.25 and Capella @ 10.31

      Totally agree. The poor wee baby has no hope of recovery and must be allowed to die peacefully.

      God bless him and his parents.

    116. Robert Louis says:

      When I was young, it was ‘understood’ the guys with sticks on the orange march would beat you up, if you tried to cross. Seem to remember, some carried wooden hammers, too.

      The whole damn organisation should be outlawed. It should certainly prevent anybody being in public office It is just a f***ing shameful disgrace. Stuck in a moronic, ill-educated timewarp They are the utter shame of Scotland.

      Something I have never understood is this, they say they are the defenders of the protestant faith, and loyal to the Queen, but WHY does that by extension mean they oppose Scottish independence? I cannot see a logical link.

    117. Smallaxe says:

      liz g; What they say:

      The Scottish Orange Order have sought to improve the control of their events is by using a detailed hand contract. The contract designates the type of uniforms bands should wear; that there should be only one bass drummer; the size of bass drum; the types of flags to be displayed – with a maximum of three flags (of which one must be the Union flag and the second either the Scottish Soltire or the flag of the bands jurisdiction); that there should he no paramilitary insignia; a band cannot have a name with the initials YCV; the tune The Wild Colonial Boy should never be played; that there should be no unseemly shouting; that only regulation marching step should he used; that there should be no drinking or playing of music by bands at the Field, that bands should not carry deacon poles or batons; and that bands on church parades must attend the service and only play hymns. The Orange Order in Northern Ireland has a similar contract, although it is not quite as specific as that used by the brethren in Scotland.

      Peace Always

    118. Liz g says:

      Capella @10.45
      Capella these people are paranoid that their way of life is under threat.
      Mibbi no the kind of group that ye want tae be surprising.

      But seriously….If we want to be left alone to march then we need to let them get on with it.
      Wouldn’t it just suit Westminster down to the ground to have conflict over marches in Scotland.
      Especially in the first few years of Independence?

      How ,when and if marches happen in Scotland when there is no more union will obviously need worked out.
      If we leave in 2019…the Union has another two summers left so,
      After all these years I think we can leave that particular thread unpicked

      And the rules of our military and anything remotely like military will fall within the framework of the Scottish Constitution
      They should be thinking about how they want that to go too
      But more than that they should not piss off the other Scots who will be contributing to it as well and have been thinking about what our right to assembly should look like for a whole lot longer

    119. Dr Jim says:

      I fear polls are attempting to manipulate opinion rather than reflect it and like newspapers attempt to create the news they want to suit their agenda

      Nothing that comes out of the media can be trusted as accurate anymore

      They’re reporting Jeremy Corbyn as a good guy now for God sake, 5 minutes ago he was a headcase now he’s the second coming with the same initials JC Ooooh Spooky!!

      Loaves and fishes any minute, they really think we’re all daft

    120. heedtracker says:

      Fact is that we, the Scots, the centre left, secular majority of all Scots, for some reason or t’other, not only do we tolerate minorities like the OO, we actually agree to be governed by another minority just like them, the tory minority. There’s a fundamental existential fault going on in our country today, where we the majority somehow do agree to this domination, of the minority.

      No idea why I use existential there. It makes up for, why are taking it, be pushed around by arseholes basically, be it the arsholes in Pacific Quay, Westminster, flute playing in daft outfits today etc etc…

      All of them put together are the minority, compared to the whole of secular, centre left Scotland. We the majority should all be greatly concerned that these minorities are slowly but surely forcing us out, of Holyrood especially.

    121. Valerie says:

      @Liz g

      No, I don’t think for a minute you are defending OO, and I’m not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, just trying to understand how the law should or would operate.

      When I read Cols post, my first thought was, ffs, hope she reported it to police, because she was threatened on a public street.

      Again, a military parade has more officious character, with drilled soldiers marching at a clip. And, I have seen folk scuttling across the road, when there is an obvious break in groups.

      I suppose I feel angry for Cols colleague. If we accept that the OO could threaten with impunity, then that means any complaint to the police would be met with – oh, that’s a shame, but serves you right for trying to go about your own business.

      These days, people are sanctioned for being late to Benefits appointments, or docked wages, or any number of reasons they need to get somewhere.

      If we stand back and accept thuggish behaviour, we can just throw the towel in now,imo.

      In 2014, a young girl had her face cut by a flying bottle, standing spectating this annual hatefest. No one was charged.

    122. Capella says:

      Oh look – Farm payments met before deadline.
      After all that megaphone wailing during the Highland Show about failure to meet the deadline – and Ruth Davidson’s cynical questioning of the FM in Holyrood, the SG actually does meet the deadline.

      Not that anyone missed out anyway as they could all access a loan to cover any gap in subsidy.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40468783

      Massey Fergusons! Why should the rest of us tolerate this level of duplicity and greed?

    123. Liz g says:

      Smallaxe @11.11
      Thanks for that ,all very military speak isn’t it…or dads army at least lol
      But that’s for the band…..each lodge hires a band to accompany it along the route .
      And it’s the Lodge….that are walking…no the band.
      It’s the stewards that accompany the lodge that had the sticks
      It would be interesting to find out how and why they did actually stop carrying the sticks

    124. Scottish Steve says:

      @Robert Louis 11:11pm

      It’s not just about them being loyal to the Crown and their Protestant faith. It’s about their loyalty to the British state too. They want to forever remain subjugated to Westminster because it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy and British inside.

      Without the Union, they don’t have an identity to speak of.

    125. Capella says:

      @ Liz g 11.14 – fair enough. But I can’t imagine an Independence march would have any objection to someone crossing the road.

      I have never seen an Orange march. Living in the NE I was spared these horrors. I have, however, discussed with a Head Teacher, her experience of Catholic children in Glasgow running the gauntlet of OO adults threatening them as they made their way to Primary School.

      Primary School children!

      IMO bullies have to be confronted. Otherwise they believe they have intimidated their victims and can act with impunity. It is up to the police to enforce public order. But it is also up to all of us to challenge bullies.

    126. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Smallaxe, I know you agree 🙂

      It’s a claim that must be challenged constantly, more vocally & perhaps by some better placed than us.

    127. Col says:

      Capella, just what I was thinking about this cutting through marches. It’s fairly well known in Glasgow not to cut through an orange march because in all likelihood you’ll get a fist full of fives for doing so. I’m pretty sure the OO have friends in high places and have done for a long time. It is never a good idea not to challenge aggressors. I mean as a city, country we need to stand up and challenge the public disorder that goes hand in hand with today’s events. Make complaints and put some pressure on them because we all deserve better than the current situation.

    128. Valerie says:

      @Capella

      The Indy March is the exact opposite. The marchers would move aside for anyone. It’s happy and inviting. There is ALL ages, and many prams among the March.

      There is no way anyone could interpret the March as anything but festive. I’m not one for marching at all, but I do go along to spectate, and listen to speakers, mingle etc. It’s infectious good humour, and lovely seeing so many children.

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you accept the view “that bigotry is simultaneously systemic and developmental, structural and subjective. It is the product of modernity insofar that it is a product of the genesis of the anti-enlightenment subject that fears the progressive force of the enlightenment”, then it is probably obvious that Scotland will not rid itself of it’s sectarian problem while still part of the Yoonion.

      The All-Pervasive Presence of the Bigot – Understanding the Persistence of Prejudice and How to Combat It
      http://www.heathwoodpress.com/the-all-pervasive-presence-of-the-bigot-understanding-prejudice-in-an-age-of-neoliberal-barbarism/

    130. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      galamcennalath at 7.58

      John Prebble’s “The Lion In The North” is the most accessible Scottish history. I contains huge anecdotal content which makes it a terrific read but is now out of print I think. It should be reprinted and every young Scot should read it. The last time I looked second hand copies were still available online at ebay.
      The best historian’s history of Scotland I have read was “Scotland. A New History” by Michael Lynch, history professor at Aberdeen I think. Tom Devine has recently published a history also

    131. Lenny Hartley says:

      With regards to crossing the road when Marches are in progress. During the Pro-Indy march in glasgow just before the GE we stopped heaps of times to let people cross the road so we did not inconvenience them. The OO knuckle draggers don’t like anybody crossing (pun intended) during their marches as they think it’s a challenge to their perceived superiority. I remember my first experience of one as a boy visiting the mainland (Saltcoats) for the day, I didn’t know any better being aged about ten . The abuse I got made me more determined to antagonise them thereafter and I made a point of deliberately sauntering across the road when I subsequently came across one. Thankfully I ain’t seen any around half a century.

    132. Smallaxe says:

      liz g; Parade calendar 2017

      http://www.bandparades.co.uk/calendar/category/scotland/list

      Now you and choose where and when to go shopping etc.
      🙂

      Peace Always

    133. Liz g says:

      Valarie @ 11.17
      Thanks for that Valarie…. I sometimes worry that my poor punctuation can make me come across as sharp when in my head I sound kind..
      Because of this I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, well for about the first couple of dozen comments or so…and we won’t mention my terrible sense of humour…eh
      Your anger at the lassies treatment and that you wanted to defend her and your rights was all I took from your posts
      I just worried that I sound like I am….Orangesplannin

      Anyhoo as I said the problem is that these marches are conducted as if they are Military,but they are indeed under the control of the police.
      So at this point in time nobody can cross through these marches unless using the break in the parade created by the police.
      Otherwise you would be breaking the law
      If the law and or the terms and conditions of these events you believe , as many do are unacceptable then you must have them changed where they originated, but you (I don’t think) should not be challenging them on the day and on the street…unless and until you have been prevented from challenging it legally or politically.
      And I don’t think we will have them much longer anyway….there’s no Union to march for when we go

    134. Liam says:

      Argh! That rainbow is the wrong way round! Red on the OUTSIDE!

      (Sorry it’s just a pet peeve.)

    135. Smallaxe says:

      Jock McDonnell;

      I wish somebody would settle the matter once and for all, Jock, so that we know where we stand, sometimes I feel as though the people who should and possibly could do it are afraid for their career’s or some other thing that we are left in the dark about.

      Peace Always my Friend

    136. Capella says:

      Then perhaps Glasgow City Council should make it a condition of allowing a march that they allow people to cross the road at will. Any breach of this condition will disqualify the organisation from ever marching again.

    137. Valerie says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Someone on Twitter said they took great pleasure in standing at the kerb in a Celtic top, and it infuriated the marchers.

      Some Councils have tried to stop the marches in the past, and some of the cases are on the Scotgov site. They were beaten on ‘freedom of assembly’.

      I just hope the Glasgow retail trade suffered today, and perhaps routes will be changed. Why can’t they hire a stadium and have a good day out?

      8 arrests today for disorder and drinking.

    138. HandandShrimp says:

      I think opinion polls can only be trusted the night before an election, when the games end and they are keen to get the result right in order to protect their, increasingly tattered, credibility. All the rest is suspect and tarnished, corrupted by whoever is paying the piper to play a tune.

    139. ben madigan says:

      @ Liz who wrote “If the law and or the terms and conditions of these events you believe , as many do are unacceptable then you must have them changed where they originated”,

      The difficulty is finding out where the rules originated -Alternatives that come to mind are
      1) with the OO insofar as they decided nobody could “cross the street”, intimidated people and nobody got anywhere with any objections. So it became a “custom” everybody had to obey.
      If so, changing these terms and conditions will be arduous indeed.

      2) written down and codified somewhere in a set of regulations that other marches like the Indy marches and the London protest today decide not to apply?
      Are the organisers of those types of marches told “you have the right to intimidate anyone that crosses your path but you may waive that right if you choose?”

    140. Grouse Beater says:

      The promised essay on The Proclaimers: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-hC6

    141. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Smallaxe

      It cannot be settled, in say a court, I believe sovereignty lies & can only lie with the people, regardless of what a panel might decide.

      If the people are not buying the supposed superiority of an institution, that institution lacks authority.
      Only the consent of the governed allows for governance, in a democracy at least.

      How to express it is the real issue. As we have seen, the core point gets diverted & lost in political & personal agendas.

    142. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jock McDonnell says: 1 July, 2017 at 10:15 pm:

      “2 Threads back, Smallaxe posted this:
      https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-2836
      It says: ‘legally speaking, the UK parliament is sovereign and can decree whatever it chooses’
      No reference, no evidence, just assertion.
      Even learned Lord Cooper couldn’t find any reason to justify such a claim.
      Just pish, its only as sovereign as we allow it to be”

      Well, Jock McDonnell, you are both right and wrong with that statement. You are right that it is utter pish but wrong as to the rest of it.

      In fact there is no such thing as a legal, “United Kingdom Law”.

      There is only The Kingdom of England legal system that applies to the three Kingdom of England countries, The Kingdom of Scotland legal system that applies only to Scotland and, of course, EU Law that has been accepted as superseding, or perhaps supplementing both the English & Scottish Rules of Law.

      There is a very good case for challenging the so called Supreme Court’s competence but that’s quite a different matter.

      As to sovereignty, The Queen of England is legally sovereign under the English Rule of Law, and since 1688, under English law the, “Legally Sovereign Monarch”, must legally delegate, “The Divine Right of Kings”, to the Parliament of, England”. As this was decided in 1688 under English Law by the parliament of England it was before there was a United Kingdom. The Parliament of England last legally sat in March 1707 and its last act was to end The Parliament of England.

      Under Scottish Law the Queen of Scots is the legal protector of the People of Scotland’s legal Sovereignty and has been thus since at least 1320.

      When/if UKexit happens, (Britain will not be leaving the EU because all of Britain isn’t in the EU), the two legal systems of law in what was the United Kingdom will have to be re-written because lots of things have been seceded in the interim to EU Law.

      Human Rights and Workers Rights just for starters. In truth the Westminster Establishment’s proposed timetable is virtually impossible to achieve in the timeframe they have envisage.

      Which is why, Nicola Sturgeon, as FM, had no problem when she claimed there will occur a second Indy referendum. The SG knows it, The EU knows it but Theresa May and the Westminster Establishment have not, as yet, grasped the truth that there isn’t a snowball’s chance in Hell of getting even the negotiations completed never mind the necessary legislation altered in the timeframe they have claimed.

    143. Smallaxe says:

      Jock McDonnell;

      Jock, I’ve said it here and on O/T many times, the people are the power, without the people, no government can claim to have any power. As a child of the 60s, I will leave it to John to say the rest;
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmFYVkyWEcE&ab_channel=thebeatlesringo20

      Goodnight, Jock, and all Wingers

      Peace Always All Ways

    144. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Robert Peffers

      The point is, Westminster only rules here because we allow it to do so, we suck it up.

    145. Famous15 says:

      Sovereingty is traditionally an acceptance of power, Overlordship if you will. In England this is the “Queen in Parliament”. In Scotland this power lies with the people. In reality in every country sovereignty lies with the masses,those who by number indicate the will of the majority.

      To defy this risks revolution ,hence the reluctance to disobey the tide of history.. Cynics may scoff but only the subornation of deciding the majority may interfere. The voice of the people is Sovereign

      In this debate I regret the untimely passing of Professor McCormick who,in his brilliant lectures in Jurisprudence, always emphasised “legitemacy” when considering good or bad law..

    146. Cactus says:

      Hey Lorna ~

      Cheers for ur excellent toon, all creatures great then small.

      Good to see the ‘whites of the eyes’ captured on the TM.

      Any link to Miller’s art shop of Glasgow… 🙂

      Have a shakin’ Shunday holiday people.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      Famous15
      Strangely enough, I just want the humanity of the people of Scotland to be legitimised. Of course, that will require the British state to respect the principle of universal human rights, even when it doesn’t support the “One Nation” ideology of British nationalism.

      A realistic utopia? Critical analyses of The Human Rights State in theory and deployment: Guest editors’ introduction

      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13642987.2017.1298729

    148. Valerie says:

      Herald report on the OO.

      Apparently SNP plans are shot to pieces.

      http://archive.is/Eyyj2

    149. heedtracker says:

      People are the power but which people? Is Brexit about to be annulled? And as usual, Scots and Scotland, wiped off the face of teamGB, Graun style.

      http://archive.is/2oe8N

    150. Darren Docherty says:

      Tess displaying their secret hand signal (no joke)
      Classic

    151. Cactus says:

      What and whose tune do you think that they’re both dancing to?

      Howsabout Kylie’s, “I Should Be SO Lucky…”

      You know who’s got the moves!

      The D.U.P.

      Double
      Ur
      Power

      Is that orange tights or fake tan on the TM, or just the heat from the fire (sporting the purple-sleeves of ukip.)

      Come on Arlene is in hysterics.

      LSX.

    152. Ken500 says:

      These Illegal Marches are not allowed/banned in most parts of Scotland. Without any difficulty. This organisation is secretive, unequal, bigoted, exclusive, sectarian, intolerant and divisive. It has no place in a modern Democracy to be parading in the streets every week end. Ruinig the local economy. It is already connected to crime and public disorder. Hate crime etc. public money should in no way be funding or supporting such behaviour. The Police presence should all have to be recoverable costs paid for by the private organisation. It must be enormous on a yearly basis. A total waste of police time and money which should be better spent. Including the uncivilised behaviour. The Police have to declare membership of any divisive society. They are supposed to be apolitical.

      It is mainly in Glasgow and the south east that this carry in is allowed to continue. Why?
      A few Thosands marchers out of a population of in the area of approx 2million are allowed to dominate the streets every other week is proposterous. A total misuse of public money and resources. Damaging the economy. If these people want to spend so much time marching, they should be doing it on private land. Hiring their own facilities. Just like any other private organisation has to do. It is illegal for the Authorities to allow this carry on to continue. The Police should be objecting to it. On the grounds of inciting public disorder and disruption to normal activities of the majority of citizens.

      The Police are complaining about stress in the force but not complaining about man hours being wasted in that carry on every other week, is just ridiculous.

      To compare these Marches held every week and Independence Marches held on average every two years is just a nonsense. The Orange Lodge Marches have extremely low support or tolerance. They are an extremely low percentage of the population. Losing members fast. Soon they will be irrelevant as people find alternative pursuits. The Churches are losing members faster then a sieve loses water. Recent scandals have had an effect. By comparison Indy marches are fully funded with independently raised funding. They are inclusive and equal. Open. Anyone who wants to go can, if they are able. It is a political movement with vast support. Half of the electorate/population and increasing.

      Anyone who objects to these Orange Lodge Marches should e-mail, the Chief executive of their local Council. If enough people registered their objection. Action would have to be taken. Or the council could face legal action and be fined. It is proportionality that is important under the Law. The SNP majority coalition in GCC might be able to make changes. For too long unionists politicians have made capital from sectarianism and division in society.

    153. Robert Louis says:

      Smallaxe at 1202am,

      I heartily agree regarding sovereignty. Westminster just says it has sovereignty, it doesn’t actually mean anything, unless our supine leaders allow it to be so.

      Whilst the SNP is in power, it is things like this which should be cleared up for good, because you can be absolutely sure, that once the SNP is no longer in power (following the next Scottish election), then these vague made-up botions of Westminster power and sovereignty will be strengthened, so we can NEVER try for independence again.

    154. Robert Louis says:

      Ken500 at 0724am,

      Agree with every word. One characteristic of these orange demonstrations, which nobody ever picks up on, is the overtly aggressive nature of their music. It is clear and loud as day, it is extremely aggressive.

      The orange lodge says it is peaceful, yet every one of their demonstrations is heralded by bands which encourage the most overt aggresssive behaviour, accompanied by aggressive drumming. It is anything but peaceful.

    155. Smallaxe says:

      Robert Louis;

      Good morning, Robert, I’m glad that you agree, if we don’t get this sorted, and soon, they will put us back in a box!

      Peace Always my Friend

    156. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS; From the Lady:

      Britains decline and fall;
      http://archive.i;s/MdfeG

      Eyes on prize!;
      http://indyref2.scot/eyes-on-prize

      The Return of the Sick Man;
      https://thecommongreen.scot/2017/06/30/the-return-of-the-sick-
      man/

      Peace Always

    157. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Podcast: Elliot Bulmer on the need for a Scots constitution;
      http://newsnet.scot/archive/podcast-elliot-bulmer-need-scots-constitution/

      Three Battles;
      https://scottovoce.wordpress.com/2017/06/29/three-battles/

      AND YOU WONDER WHY I WANT INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND?
      https://munguin.wordpress.com/2017/07/01/this-is-part-of-the-uk-government/

      Peace Always

    158. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Davidson seeks solace in titillating photos as Opinium subsample puts SNP 10% ahead;
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/davidson-seeks-solace-in-titillating.html

      Wee Ginger Dug in Livingston
      Phantom Power Films’ Podcast;
      https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/phantompowerfilms/episodes/2017-06-30T10_35_48-07_00

      Tory Mayor compares benefit claimants to dogs: they’re ‘brown’, ‘stink’ and ‘can’t speak a word of English’;
      http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mayor-compares-benefit-claimants-to-dogs-theyre-brown-stink-and-cant-speak-a-word-of-english/

      Peace Always

    159. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Brexit minister linked to group that used loophole to channel £435,000 to DUP;
      http://archive.is/Hm7b3

      This woman gave a passionate speech to MPs about what she says are the failings in how the Grenfell Tower victims are being treated.
      Video here;
      https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/881215354944593922

      That’s all Folks, have a Super Sunday
      🙂

      Peace Always

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scottish Steve says: 1 July, 2017 at 11:31 pm:

      “It’s not just about them being loyal to the Crown and their Protestant faith. It’s about their loyalty to the British state too.”

      In fact, Scottish Steve, the point is that legally, (under the rule of law of only the KINGDOM of England’s three countries), the crown is the State, (It is NOT the British State because Westminster doesn’t rule all of Britain).

      Legally, under the rule of law of the KINGDOM of Scotland the crown is NOT the state and that is the whole problem we find ourselves in since Westminster forced Devolution upon us.

      The trouble being that as Westminster did not devolve any powers to the COUNTRY of England then Westminster has actually illegally ended the United Kingdom. There actually is no union now.

      In Westminster’s eyes what was legally a union of two equally sovereign Kingdoms has become a union of four unequal COUNTRIES and they are not only unequal in the devolved functions they were granted by Westminster but one of those devolved COUNTRIES, (Scotland), is legally also the only other KINGDOM in the United Kingdom.

      So there cannot be a United KINGDOM while Westminster has relegated their only KINGDOM partner to the same level as the two KINGDOM of England dominions COUNTRIES of Wales and Northern Ireland and is treating the COUNTRY of England as the master COUNTRY and the three other COUNTRIES as English dominions.

      There is absolutely no doubt that the actual set-up is now Westminster being the de facto parliament of the COUNRTRY of England that is ruling over the other three countries but is still claiming to still be the United KINGDOM and the proof of that particular pudding is their use of EVEL that prevents their subservient COUNTRIES from interfering in Westminster’s running of the COUNTRY of England.

      That is the real situation but for some unknown reason the United Kingdom’s population just cannot separate in their minds that there is a fundamental difference between the two terms country and kingdom.

      There cannot be a United Kingdom when Westminster treats their only equally sovereign partner Kingdom as a dominion country but still maintains that Westminster is the Country of England’s, (unelected as such), parliament.

      There simply is not an actual elected parliament of the country of England but Westminster runs itself as if there was and Westminster is the de facto parliament of England..

    161. Croompenstein says:

      What is this complete wankjelly going on about BTL on munguins from Nana’s link….

      tris and other snp acolytes

      Not so long ago Wings over Scotland
      Led with a blog which stated clearly
      If Westminster continued to ignore
      The snp version of how The democratic
      Will of the Nationlists was being traduced
      Then perhaps the Bomb and the bullet was
      The only way for Scotland to achieve
      Independence,,,
      any comments ???

    162. stu mac says:

      @Robert Louis says:
      1 July, 2017 at 11:11 pm
      WHY does that by extension mean they oppose Scottish independence? I cannot see a logical link.
      ======================================

      IMO it is because the O/O are basically an NI organisation. Their origins are in the Ulster prods that emigrated here and they still have strong links with NI. Scottish Presbyterians in the past always had a strong sense of Scottish identity despite their support for the union but NI ones, especially the O/O lived in fear of an Irish Catholic takeover (imaginary or not) and thus have always clung to England as the big power that will protect them – something that wasn’t the case in Scotland until the O/O became a big influence here. This attitude that we need to be under the protection and support of the union (rather than we are an equal partner in) has unfortunately permeated the mindset of many.

    163. Smallaxe says:

      First link coming up blank?

      Take 2;
      Decline and Fall;
      http://archive.is/xb4uX

      Peace Always

    164. colin alexander says:

      The mandate for the Scot Govt to hold an indyref 2, came from the Scottish Parliament- who were elected by the electorate.

      Are we all agreed on that?

      According to the “guessperts” on here the indyref will happen before the next Scottish general election.

      So, it’s not a party political issue. It will be a referendum on a single issue endorsed by Holyrood.

      So, why do people on this site take the huff if the SNP or anything in Scotland is criticised under devolution?

      They have nothing to do with the merits of independence – unless people are daft enough to believe the Blue and Red Tory propaganda lie that says: SNP bad = independence bad.

      Independence is not a political party. The SNP are not independent Scotland.

      Services in Scotland now are UK devolved services. They are nothing to do with an independent Scotland and offer no insight into an independent Scotland’s services.

      So, what’s the problem with criticism of some aspects of the SNP or aspects of life in Scotland as part of the UK?

      They have nothing to do with the campaign for independence.

      I support independence, but I wouldn’t call myself an SNP supporter – though I voted SNP / Green at the Council election and SNP in the GE.

      Here’s the important bit: In 2015 the SNP achieved 50%. That’s the ONLY time the SNP have gained at least half the votes.

      For YES to win, YES must appeal to non-SNP voters.

      If you keep putting out the message YES = SNP and SNP = YES you are falling into the very trap that Project Fear kept pumping out in 2014. They put out the same message, except they put it as: if you don’t like the SNP or Alex Salmond, vote NO.

      We must stop the party political rubbish. We must focus on the merits of independence, instead of promoting the SNP, if we want to win an indyref.

      YES = independence. YES = the opportunity to have a fairer, more democratic and more prosperous Scotland for all Scotland’s people, no matter which political party you prefer.

    165. Smallaxe says:

      colin alexander says:

      “YES = independence. YES = the opportunity to have a fairer, more democratic and more prosperous Scotland for all Scotland’s people, no matter which political party you prefer.”

      As liz g so eloquently puts it, Yes= Bringing any future Scottish Government “Within Slapping Distance”

      Peace Always

    166. Valerie says:

      So, here it is, it’s arrived. A Rights lawyer telling us can’t assume Irish won’t be deported, because their Rights will fall once left the EU.

      I have been working on this assumption, because all we see are signs of ethnic cleansing.

      So, those who are Irish, take note.

      https://twitter.com/SimonFRCox/status/881425032106450944

    167. Lorna Miller says:

      @Cactus I was taken to Millers art shop in 1983 the day after my 11th birthday when I received no presents because we had just moved into a new house. (Cue violins) my mum said I could have whatever I wanted so I chose an oil painting set, easel and folding stool. And a tortured artist was born. I’m still feeling the pain. My mum says so is her bank account that was the most expensive thing in the shop. I set it up in the attic (my garret) and taught myself oil painting. When the painting boards ran out I painted the walls.
      @Liam there are no mistakes! Lol
      I love to read your comments thanks good and bad – the one about me making Nicola surgeon look like a woolly beast cracked me up: fair point I get carried away with the hatching.
      Have a peaceful Sunday x

    168. jfngw says:

      @Colin Alexander

      I agree the yes movement should not be exclusively SNP, but as the other main parties sit firmly in the no independence camp then how can it be achieved without having the SNP in power.

      And yes we should be criticising bad governance, but at present it is a double edged sword as it reduces independence support. It is the exact reason the media has mounted such a sustained attack on them.

    169. Robert Kerr says:

      Another link

      UK ban on foreign inshore fishing (“WE are taking back control”)

      http://archive.is/gXLze

    170. Ghillie says:

      Gishartists at large again.

      ( Not you Lorna! See Stuartb few threads back, on description of a Gish Galloper, all will be revealed 🙂 )

    171. Ghillie says:

      Found it !

      Gish Gallop, as explained by :

      Stewartb 24 June @ 12.10 pm on ‘ Come On Arlene ‘

    172. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jock McDonnell says: 2 July, 2017 at 1:03 am:

      “The point is, Westminster only rules here because we allow it to do so, we suck it up.”

      Aye! Jock, but I’m the guy who has been yelling at Wingers for a very long time that very point. That and the fact that Westminster pulled a stunt when they instigated devolution, unequally devolved powers to only three of the four countries and made Westminster the, unelected as such, de facto parliament of the country of England.

      I got pelters for a while for nagging Wingers to stop confusing Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom and England as all being synonymous. For that has been the Westminster Establishments main brainwashing ploy that has the people of Scotland not understanding that they have great powers by being legally sovereign.

      The only problem now is getting a recognised majority vote to enforce our legal sovereignty. The only way to get that is via the SNP as the SG, the contingent of MPs at Westminster and in control of most councils, not, of course, forgetting MSPs in Europe.

      The fact that the Yoons are on a 24/7/365 campaign to have another referendum taken off the table should be proof enough that this is indeed the way to go to regain our Scottish sovereignty.

      They Yoons are in abject terror of there being another referendum for they know the truth even if a goodly portion of the people of Scotland have not yet grasped the real facts.

    173. gerry parker says:

      With only 34 people, Stu organised Wings as a referendum observerthat small initial number covered all the Scottish Local councils.
      With another 34, and the local connections they could make, we could influence what the Scottish Government debates using
      http://www.parliament.scot/gettinginvolved/petitions/CreateAPetition.aspx

      Might take a new page similar to “off topic” to debate and organise, but it could provide a way to get Parliament to consider our concerns and debate them openly.

    174. Jack Murphy says:

      For Wings readers and those who may have missed BBC Reporting Scotland last week reporting the sad death of Gordon Wilson,former leader of the SNP and SNP MP for Dundee East nigh on 13 years.

      “The Great Stabiliser” during some turbulent years in the history of the broader independence movement.

      For many many years Gordon Wilson was the public TV face of the movement for independence.
      My Gran remembers him well——as if it was yesterday.

      A piece with input from BBC Brian Taylor—-constrained by the clock to just over three minutes.

      Perhaps some other time for a longer piece?

      Aa unwavering believer in independence for Scotland.

      Memorial Service 12MD in Dundee,Wednesday the 5th July.

      FILM YouTube:
      http://tinyurl.com/yc4nxewa

    175. Smallaxe says:

      Jack Murphy;

      Thanks, for that Jack.

      Peace Always

    176. Liz g says:

      Jack Murphy @ 1.05
      Thanks for that… I don’t watch the BBC,well any of them really,but the BBC in particular.
      So I definitely haven’t seen it.

      But I will watch it now,as the others were saying it is important to know yer history and, in the story of Scotland getting out of that bloody Treaty, I guess he played a part.

      Sad he didn’t get to see us out ….just like Margo,and the Cannon!

    177. Cactus says:

      Hey Lorna ~

      “When the painting boards ran out I painted the walls” 🙂 🙂

      Lookin’ out for and forward to your next x

    178. Liam says:

      Lorna Miller says:
      2 July, 2017 at 10:59 am

      @Liam there are no mistakes! Lol

      So the rainbow was deliberately painted in a way that breaks the laws of physics because…?

    179. Foonurt says:

      Wae heid fur wurr full history……

      Battle ah Dunnichen/Nechtansmere – 685
      Battle ah Cruden Bay – 1012
      Battle ah Carham – 1018
      Battle ah Largs – 1263
      [Non-]Battle ah Irvine – 9.7.1297
      Battle ah Stirling Brig – 11.9.1297
      Battle ah Falkirk – 22.7.1298
      Battle ah Loch Trool – Spring, 1307
      Battle ah Loudoun Hill – 1297 (Wallace) & 10.5.1307 (Bruce)
      Battle ah
      Battle ah Summerdale – 1529
      Battle ah Spoiling Dyke – 1578
      Battle ah Bloody Burn – 1601



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