The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

The thickest of it

Posted on June 04, 2015 by

There’s an unmissable piece in today’s Guardian about the last days of the general election campaign, as seen from inside the headquarters of the Labour Party.


The reason it’s fascinating isn’t because (as it claims) it provides an insight into why Labour lost the election, but because it reveals how the party’s most senior staff, by pathologically avoiding any non-stage-managed contact with actual voters, lost all grip of reality and sleepwalked into their most crushing defeat in decades.

What the article, a thumping 6500 words long, actually demonstrates is that Labour’s leadership and advisers became so utterly obsessed with the “game” of politics – the Oxbridge-debating-society point-scoring and the media coverage inside the London bubble – that it completely forgot about the small matter of the electorate.

It shows a party believing its own spin, and allowing its own obsessions to override common sense. Nowhere is it better illustrated than in an astonishingly mad letter Labour’s campaign chief Lucy Powell sent to the BBC two weeks out from the vote:

“Your bulletins and output have become disproportionately focused on the SNP and Tory claims that Labour would enter into a deal which would damage the rest of the UK … We strongly object not only to the scale of your coverage but also the apparent abandonment of any basic news values, with so much reporting now becoming extremely repetitive.

The BBC’s relentless focus on Scotland is potentially of huge political benefit not only to the SNP but also to the Conservative party. Indeed, it is becoming apparent that this has become the main Tory message in this election and you have regularly shown images from their posters and advertising designed to reinforce this attack. But the BBC has a responsibility not only to reflect what the Conservatives are saying but also to reflect on it.

For instance, if the BBC has ever asked David Cameron and his colleagues why they are spending most of the energy talking up the SNP, I have missed it … The BBC includes growing amounts of commentary in its news bulletins. But you have barely ever reflected our view – and that of many commentators from across the political spectrum – that the Conservatives want the SNP to win seats from Labour in Scotland because that represents their best chance of remaining in Downing Street.”

Miliband, says the article, “blames the Labour defeat on the SNP”. (We’ll charitably assume that he means it happened because of the media focus on the SNP, rather than just whining at the SNP for daring to stand and win votes and seats.) The Powell letter certainly lends weight to that assertion. But the sole reason offered for this belief is the oddly precise claim that the threat of the Nats holding the balance of power persuaded 2.5% of the electorate to switch from UKIP to the Tories.

Occam’s Razor can rarely have been so conspicuously ignored. As this site noted repeatedly, from 18 months and more before the election, a significant proportion of UKIP supporters were always likely to do that, because the primary motivating factor for UKIP supporters is – so obviously that it’s embarrassing us to even type it out – a referendum to leave the EU.

UKIP couldn’t win the election, only Labour or the Conservatives could. The Tories were offering an EU referendum and Labour weren’t. It’s not rocket science. The dogs in the street could have told you that in seats UKIP clearly weren’t going to win under First Past The Post – ie most of them – their savvier voters would do their best to ensure that David Cameron, not Ed Miliband, held the keys to Downing Street.

Yet while this site banged on and on about it, we’re struggling to remember any articles in the mainstream press considering this blindingly obvious likelihood. At best there were some passing mentions in pieces about tactical voting, but we can’t think of any major coverage of the basic key fact that UKIP voters aren’t total morons.


That’s a lesson – incredibly – that Labour still don’t seem to have learned since the Gillian Duffy incident. Politicians and most of the metropolitan media lazily and glibly write off UKIP supporters as the drooling, witless racists that many of the party’s candidates are, but that’s a disastrous mistake. The bulk of them are normal people disillusioned by exactly the sort of insular, detached drone politics that the Guardian article depicts, and they’re perfectly capable of arriving at rational decisions.

A sane observer would ask themselves which was the more likely explanation: that UKIP voters, desperate above anything else to leave Europe, would tactically switch to the Tories because it was the clear route to an EU referendum, or that they’d do so because they were scared of the SNP.

(That sane observer might conclude that since UKIP supporters tend to be to the right of the Tories on most subjects, they’d already be so antagonistic towards Labour that the prospect of the SNP influencing them was unlikely to make much of a difference.)

It’s a bit like saying the real reason Celtic fans don’t support “Rangers” is that public transport around Ibrox is overcrowded on match days or that they don’t like Stuart McCall’s haircut. And don’t get us wrong, it certainly IS a ludicrous haircut for a grown man, but there are rather more obvious factors at play.

Labour lost because it needed to be going into the election with a far bigger lead in order to survive the inevitable UKIP tactical voting, the “shy Tory” factor and the incumbency effect that benefits most sitting governments – all elements that were known about long before the vote – and the main reason it didn’t have one is that nobody with a brain in their head ever thought the people of England would elect Ed Miliband to be Prime Minister.


Miliband was the elephant in the room throughout the campaign. For more than two and a half years he’d been polling catastrophically, but analysts old enough to know better clutched frantically at straws dating back to the days of Jim Callaghan or just turned a blind eye and told themselves it’d somehow be alright on the night.

Exactly two years before the independence referendum, on 18 September 2012, we told the readers of this site:

“Unless something makes Miliband voluntarily fall on his sword in the next three years – and we can’t imagine what that would be – he’ll lead Labour into the 2015 campaign.

If he does, we’ll make our prediction now: regardless of what other events may transpire, Labour will lose.”

Sadly for us, we got another part of that prediction wrong – the voters of Scotland didn’t accept that fact in time for the referendum. Had the polls clearly shown what we always knew, we suspect the prospect of Tory rule for years to come might well have been enough to tip the Yes vote over 50%.

And we don’t just mean the next five years. What the Guardian’s story reveals is that by refusing to acknowledge the real reasons for their defeat, Labour are hell-bent on repeating the same mistakes. None of the candidates for the party leadership look any more like a Prime Minister than Ed Miliband did, and if people can’t see your leader as PM then it doesn’t matter how much you agonise over whether focus groups like your policies, because nobody will be imagining them as things that’ll actually happen.

So we’ll make the same prediction now as we did in 2012, with the same confidence: if any of the current contenders is leading Labour in 2020, they’ll lose again.

(With Miliband’s timid, half-arsed moves to the left also being frantically disowned, the party is reverting to the suicidal strategy of fighting the Tories on Tory ground as well as picking from a selection of no-hoper leaders. The first opinion poll conducted since the election already has the Tories 11% in front.)

That might ultimately benefit the independence movement. But unless Labour can be persuaded to stop gazing up its own fundament and blaming everyone but itself for its defeat, the people of the whole UK will pay a very heavy price first.

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 04 06 15 12:18

      The thickest of it | Speymouth

    2. 04 06 15 13:42

      The thickest of it | Politics Scotland | Scoop...

    491 to “The thickest of it”

    1. Morag says:

      Great article, Stuart.

    2. MajorBloodnok says:

      Will Labour listen? I very much doubt it.

      And compare and contrast the relationship the SNP has with the electorate…

    3. Muscleguy says:

      It gets worse, there is every possibility that Labour’s contribution to the Yes campaign in the Brexit referendum will drive moderate swing voters into the arms of No.

      Of course that will then provide Holyrood with a suitable caussus belli, assuming Scotland keeps on the right track and votes Yes. But there are no sure things. The silver lining is that much to the annoyance of the kippers Britain will not be out of the EU the day after the vote. It took Greenland 8 years to negotiate an exit. Even granted Westminster and Whitehall’s greater capacity we will have lots of years to recoil in horror at the prospect.

    4. Jim Thomson says:

      And, it seems, no amount of my own tweeting to the SLab heartland seems to be making much of an impact in terms of getting them to see sense (not that I’m at all bothered 🙂 )

    5. Lanarkist says:

      Thick Fest on all Year!

      Tickets still available, two for the price of one.

      Spads and Labour Advisers seem to earn good wages for blowing smoke up their employers rear ends.

      According to the article Labour still believed they would triumph at 9.55 pm on Election Day.

      They just didn’t get it, wouldn’t get it, couldn’t get it and still aren’t getting it.

      Why vote for Tory lite when you could vote for the real deal.

      Why vote Labour if left wing when we had a true left wing alternative.

      Do these people ever speak to anyone outside their own bubble?

      Rhetorical question!

    6. The Man in the Jar says:

      I dont think that they will have learned their lesson before next years Holyrood vote. I think that they have exactly the same problem here in Scotland. “There are none so blind as those that will not see”

      Good riddance to them!

    7. Rob James says:

      The labour party are totally bereft of anyone with leadership quality. As you rightly point out, they are still running around trying to pin the blame on everyone else, particularly the SNP. Nobody within the party can deliver a speech with the passion to rouse the electorate. Perhaps that could be accounted for by the lack of policy substance.

      In Scotland, we have Kezia Dugdale as favourite to become Slab leader. I rest my case. When Murphy reveals his review, the infighting will reach fever pitch and the backstabbing will become full frontal as the old guard try and manoeuvre themselves into position for Holyrood 2016.

      Meanwhile, unbeknown to them, their last member will have ripped up his or her card and joined the ranks of the SNP.

      They are doomed in Scotland. That could have an equally damaging reaction in England.

      By the way Stu, congrats on managing to read through that 6500 word epitaph.

    8. Morag says:

      I felt a bit sorry for Miliband the next morning. To go from writing a winner’s speech and imagining he was going to be PM, to resigning and seeing his career essentially ruined in the space of a few hours can’t have been easy. Not only is he not the PM, as his party isn’t likely to be in power in the next 10 years, his chance ever of attaining any of the great offices of state is minimal.

      But I blame the people who encouraged him to stand for the leadership in the first place. The people who actually thought he was prime ministerial material. The people who voted for him as leader. The people surrounding him who kept telling him he was prime ministerial material.

      I still maintaint the fundamental reason for the SNP landslide in 2011 was a communal voter conniption-fit over the very idea of Iain Gray as First Minister. The same thing is going to happen next year unless they can find a credible candidate, and let’s face it there isn’t one. They might try to promote Dougie Alexander or another failed WM MP, but there are two problems with that. One is that having as your candidate for First Minister someone who is not currently an MSP is a very dodgy wicket on principle. The other is that you’re promoting someone who had his jotters handed to him by the very same electorate only a year previously.

      And the more they sit around in their wee cliques telling themselves that the reason all the SNP people were laughing at Jim Murphy was because we were afraid of him (or the next similar delusion), the worse it’s going to get.

    9. steveasaneilean says:

      Superb dissection Stu

    10. Doug Daniel says:

      Absolutely spot on, especially this paragraph:

      “And we don’t just mean five years. What the Guardian’s story reveals is that by refusing to acknowledge the real reasons for their defeat, Labour are hell-bent on repeating the same mistakes. None of the candidates for the party leadership look any more like a Prime Minister than Ed Miliband did, and if people can’t see your leader as PM then it doesn’t matter how much you agonise over your policies, because nobody will be imagining them as things that’ll actually happen.”

      I just don’t understand why they can’t see it. Nobody in their right mind could look at Ed Miliband and imagine him congregating with other world leaders. You could perhaps imagine him standing looking confused, unsure what he was supposed to do next and waiting for a SpAd to tell him how to act.

      It may be unfortunate that an election can come down to how the public perceive one person, but that doesn’t stop it being reality, and you only win elections by dealing with reality.

      But it’s no surprise Labour haven’t learned this lesson, because it’s the same thing they’ve been avoiding for decades. Look at all the Labour and Tory leaders who have lost elections over the past three decades or so, and they all share something in common – they didn’t seem like leaders. Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock, William Hague, Michael Howard – none of them seemed like Prime Ministers. They all had some ridiculous quality about them. I dare say even the infamous “longest suicide note in history” could have been a winning manifesto if delivered by someone who looked more like a leader than Michael Foot.

      You can have the best manifesto in the world, but if it’s being delivered by a big dork, no one’s going to pay attention. And Labour’s manifesto was so far away from “best in the world” that it’s not funny.

      So now we have to suffer another Tory government, and likely another one after that as well, all because Labour refuse to accept reality. Thanks a bunch, Labour.

    11. Dorothy Devine says:

      There is some not so fascinating drivel in the Telegraph – remind me that I loathe the paper and should not have bothered my bahoochie taking a peek.

      Mr Massie’s daddy copying his son in his attempts to smear with faux outrage.

      I do wish that some high profile ,so called journalist might be sued by Mr Salmond , the SNP and the people of Scotland.

      It is also making much of Mr Salmond’s response to the cry of ” move on ” from some female MP – must admit I thought there would be a whole lot of hoo-ha stirred up about it.

    12. Onwards says:

      Labours tactics towards the SNP shot themselves in the foot. They played along with the Tories portrayal of the SNP as toxic, when it was obvious to everyone, given the polls, that Miliband needed their support to form a government.
      He should have simply been honest from the start – saying of course they would make deals on the issues they had in common.

    13. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      James Kelly has looked at the (Small) subset from the recent YouGov poll
      SNP up 6% to 56% for Holyrood voting intentions.
      Labour down 4% to 20%
      LibDems down 3% to 5%.

      usual caveats but looks as if the SNP bandwagon is still rolling along.

    14. Legerwood says:

      Even at the start of this year Labour were trying to replace Ed Milliband as leader. Hardly a vote of confidence but clearly Labour thought the voters would not notice.

      Labour have been told they must once more become the party of aspiration but when the most you aspire to is mediocrity and you keep falling short of that target then oblivion beckons. Look at the current crop of leadership contenders north and south of the border and you can see what a wee puddle of talent Labour has to draw on. Describing them as mediocre would overstate their abilities – grossly overstate.

      Andy Burnham is apparently the frontrunner. How the Tories must be rubbing their hands at that possibility. He, as Secretary of State for Health in the last Labour Government, started the process to privatise an entire NHS hospital. What will the Tories do to him the first time he opens his mouth on any NHS related matter? It won’t be pretty.

      As to the UKIP factor, the results in some of the by-elections immediately prior to the GE should have set the alarm bells ringing in the Labour bunker but they were ignored and UKIP hurt Labour.

      There was one other nugget in the Guardian article. Milliband was advised to make a speech countering the Tories’ anti-SNP strategy. That would have been the statesmanlike thing to do but he did not – the rest is history.

    15. Grouse Beater says:

      The MSM continue to shape negative opinion referring to the popularity of the SNP as ‘the rise of the SNP’, as if association with a dangerous animal risen from its lair.

    16. Doug Daniel says:

      Morag: “But I blame the people who encouraged him to stand for the leadership in the first place. The people who actually thought he was prime ministerial material. The people who voted for him as leader. The people surrounding him who kept telling him he was prime ministerial material.”

      Me too. Certain people just aren’t cut out to be leader, and the kindest thing their friends and colleagues can do is tell them so. John Swinney is another example – I like the guy, and he’s turned out to be a fantastic Finance Minister, but he was never a leader. The very same reason he’s so good at his current job – that “cautious bank manager” aura – is exactly why he was never going to lead the SNP to victory.

      Most people don’t read manifestos. I’d bet most don’t even know the main policies of the party they vote for. A great leader can sell bad policies; a bad leader can’t sell good policies. And that’s why it’s so critical that in Nicola Sturgeon, we have a great leader who will be selling great policies.

      It’s hard to see how that can be beaten, quite frankly. Especially when the opponent is going to be Kezia Dugdale or Ken Macintosh.

    17. heedtracker says:

      Another hideous Gordon Brown/Alistair Darling legacy.

      If they focused on people that don’t vote but maybe would vote for an actual socialist and not red tory Labour gov…

      Also bizarre, their refusal to even acknowledge the extent of SNP gains despite extraordinary Scots media opposition and all led by the BBC in Scotland. BBC Scotland couldn’t have done any more to get Jim Murphy re-elected but their abject failure May 7 probably speaks volumes about what majority Scots voters think of all red and blue tory unionists.

    18. Brian Powell says:

      And a new contender for leadership of Labour in Scotland started with, not what he stood for, and what Labour was specifically was going to do, but “We can’t blame everything on the SNP”!

      The LibDem crash seemed to me to come from the same negativity. There must have been many among the LibDem MPs who thought the coalition was going badly wrong and they weren’t saving the UK from anything.

      But they were too frightened to rock the boat in case there was another election, and a worse situation would come along. So they did nothing and a much worse situation came along. Leaving the UK in a deeper pit than it was before, and them nowhere at all.

    19. Luigi says:

      You can tell when an opposition leader will be rejected by the electorate by a gut feeling that tells you how really embarrassing it would be if that person won the right to represent the country on the world stage. If you feel it, you can bet many others feel it also. Much as I loathe Cameron’s politics, I don’t feel embarrassed that he is the PM of the UK. He looks the part, and let’s face it, perception is everything.

      If Labour had elected the popular older Milliband brother as party leader (and they supported an EU referendum), they could have just about scrapped it on May 7th IMO. Mind you, if Labour had a leader of the calibre of a Salmond or a Sturgeon, they would have walked it!

    20. DerekM says:

      Its staggering to see them lurch about in the dark trying to figure out what happened,it must be the SNP`s fault and blindly missing the obvious no it couldnt be could it that their good pals in BT set them up big time.

      While they were all SNP bad howling at the moon nonsense the tories were stealing the aces from the pack,the bizarre thing is Ed did have one chance and a slim one at that to be PM and that was if on live TV he agreed to form a progressive alliance with the ladies to keep the tories out and the muppet blew it.

      I agree Stu they have no PM in their ranks hell i dont even see a descent cabinet in there so called big beasts,and once again they are floundering around with no leader as a new parliament starts ,ineffective as a collective opposition and they wonder why people think they are useless.

    21. Milady de Winter says:

      Stuart, you have more intelligence and understanding of UK politics in your wee finger than most of these buffoons have in their whole ruling executive. Hell I think I have more understanding than they do. Labour as they exist today need more than a change of face at the top. There are some good people in the party but they are ill served by their current leadership and (lack of) policy direction.

    22. Brotyboy says:

      If I can make a point to reinforce earlier comments, an interesting statistic is that of our SNP MPs none are Oxbridge educated, while all 4 of Labour’s potential leaders are.

      Of course, Jeremy Corbyn has suggested he will stand and he is not Oxbridge educated, but he may not even get enough support from fellow MPs to get to that point.

    23. Danny Devine says:

      Labour have indeed not learned their lesson.

      Here’s the response from Stirling Westminster candidate Johanna Boyd shortly after being soundly thrashed by the SNP’s Steven Paterson with a 10,480 majority:

      “I don’t feel there’s anything we could have done differently. I’m very proud of the campaign we fought.

      “I thought we had an excellent manifesto with lots of strong policies. It’s just that people weren’t listening.”

      In case you think I’ve just made that up, here’s the link:

      That quote just sums Labour up – “we didn’t do anything wrong, it was the voters fault”.

      Just remember this woman is the Labour leader of Stirling Council and in a formal coalition with the Tories. Her legacy being that she presided over the biggest and worst strike Stirling Council has seen for years, agreed with the Tories to be the only local authority to CUT the council tax costing the Council millions in lost revenue, voted AGAINST a £2 Million increase in local government funding only to be caught out by the SNP group, orchestrated the bid for National Armed Forces Day in conjunction with the Provost to deliberately undermine Bannockburn 2014, failed to control unruly Councillor Danny Gibson when he tried to ban the Saltire flying above Stirling Council offices. I could go on.

      But quite simply folks, at the 2017 Stirling Council elections you have the opportunity to show her, her goof troop and others like her, in other council areas across this land, what you exactly think of them!

    24. Macart says:

      That’s a keeper Rev.

      Labour have a long and undistinguished history of blaming others for their failures and their catastrophes. Its become part of their political culture and runs from the top down without fail.

      Labour lost the election because they lost the trust of the people. Their leader was not a true leader or statesman and their party machinery had completely lost touch with the electorate. They didn’t even want to represent significant sections of the electorate, only those with jobs and money. The leader of a nation, nevermind a party, leads for all under their care. Labour didn’t even have the excuse of forgetting that, they deliberately disenfranchised huge sections of the population in favour of pursuing votes in marginal seats.

      They made a conscious choice, a poor choice, a telling choice to those who helped create and for decades supported Labour. They failed their electorate and they failed themselves, but most importantly, it was THEIR choice and one they took a long time ago.

      Now, as usual, its the people who have to live with the consequences of Labour’s decades long actions, though hopefully not for too much longer in Scotland, because we have an option we can choose at any time. My sympathies go to progressives in the rest of the UK who have no viable electoral option. They must hope that something can be rescued from the car crash that is parliamentary UK Labour or otherwise work to create a new more representative left leaning movement.

      As for Labour’s current team? I don’t see that boat being turned from the rocks any time soon.

    25. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ GB 12:00

      The “risen from the lair smea”r would have been much more appropriately applied to Jim Murphy, viz

      Watch from behind the couch

    26. Petra says:

      O/T Maybe?

      @ Chic McGregor says “Frankie Boyle’s piece for the guardian today.

      I dare you not to fall off your chair enjoy 🙂”

      Boyle at his funniest.

      However I think he has got it wrong.

      In my view it is much worse than that.

      Cameron is actually the good guy hear (read not as evil).

      I think he is playing the little Dutch boy by holding back the much darker forces.

      Yes, he is very clever, but as much of that cleverness, if not more, is exercised in keeping them in check.”

      I’ve been following what you have to say about Cameron Chic and I think you’re right. I’m also wondering if he’s a covert chess master?

    27. Darren says:

      Are you seriously suggesting it was Labour’s position on an EU referendum that made all the difference? I mean really?

      So when exactly did the Tories launch a concerted effort to warn against that in the election campaign? When did you get day after day of the Tory press pushing that into people’s consciousness?

      It was quite clear to a number of people that UKIP voters deciding to vote tactically was a big danger. As it happened their vote held up fairly well and probably better than expected. The vote that didn’t hold up was the Liberal vote and most of those previously Liberal held seats went to the Tories.

      It was also clear to many people that Miliband was a weakness but throughout the campaign his approval ratings greatly improved. He wasn’t the difference between victory and defeat.

      However, don’t ever get away from the reality that voters were absolutely convinced they were voting for a coalition or leading party supported by other parties. The polls told everyone that was the case.

      The Tories knew that continually warning of the dangers, whether imagined or otherwise, of a Labour/SNP alliance was the potential election winner for them which is why it played such a prominent part of their campaign. Labour knew it was the potential election loser for them in an election which was going to be decided by England and did everything they could to distance themselves from it. The hard fact is people overwhelmingly rejected any kind of Labour/SNP alliance.

      You see the Scottish Independence referendum did two things. It stirred up nationalist attitudes in Scotland but it also did exactly the same in England. That meant to have any chance of winning, Labour had to go out of their way to distance themselves from the SNP. By 2020 the referendum issue will be out of the way. That doesn’t improve their chances of winning though because as long as the SNP hold most seats in Scotland, the fears people have about a Labour/SNP alliance will remain the real elephant in the room.

      To deny that is quite simply to live in cloud cuckoo land I’m afraid.

    28. Desimond says:

      You give the Labour leadership too much credit. The SNP are strong because of the SNP, not because of peoples attitude ( or lack of) to Labour leaders. The respect the SNP hold was earned, it wasnt donated by Labour electing weak leaders. I know you know this of course and you know this isnt a dig.

      I find it tiring when hearing people give it “I hope Labour get back to being real Labour”..from what, when?, the 1940s?

      Post election we had immediate cries from senior Labour MPs that “The electorate has clearly told us we must move more to the right!”. Leader schmeader, games done.

      If they had any brains they would approach Nigel Farage; Its a crazy plan but it just might work!

    29. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The ‘Orangefest’ petition seems to be flatlining. Currently at 24,188, so that’s only (approximately) 1,200 since midnight. At its busiest it was taking that in little over an hour.

      This would be a good time to feature the petition more prominently – any uptick would be instantly noticeable. Can anyone suggest how to give it a wee fillip?

    30. Peter says:

      Spot on article! Not one current leadership candidate has a chance. In all likelihood they will be up against Boris who is not quite the buffoon he paints himself as and will be loved by Tory voters.

      The evidence of labours inability to understand continues with their laughable ‘contest’ for leader in holyrood. It is obvious even to a goldfish that Murphy is still pulling the strings and will have Kezia installed as leader.

      I see nothing that can happen before next may that will avoid almost a total labour wipeout in holyrood.

      Tomorrow Yvette Cooper comes to Scotland to ‘meet’ SNP voters who previously voted labour to ‘understand why they did so’
      A total exercise in futility! What she will meet is a hand picked group(picked by murphy and mcternan) who will tell her that the ‘reason’ they voted SNP is the EXACT reasons that murphy already has in his ‘report’ due next week.

      Labour are once again paying lip service in stage managed events rather than going onto the streets and talking to people free of spin doctors and poodle journalists.

      Tis laughable

    31. Chic McGregor says:

      I was actually surprised at how many of the UKIP support are morons.

      I also think Farage missed a trick. He should have conceded on the referendum and only stood UKIP in a handful of selected seats urging their support elsewhere to vote for the EU referendum/Tories. Apart from being the strategically logical move it would have increased his party’s maturity standing in the eyes of the electorate.

      Glad they didn’t and now they are future f***ed.

      Miliband should have opted for an EU referendum too. That also lost Labour votes, how many? who knows?

      Likewise, the SNP made a big strategic error in not promising an EU referendum after independence years ago.
      How much marginal indy/strongly anti EU support was enticed into
      voting Tory or into abstaining by this during indyref 1? Who knows?
      That mistake still has legs.
      Especially if the EU debate has invoked strong polarization on the issue in the electorate before an indy ref 2.

      And it isn’t just about avoiding the loss of anti EU voters or assuaging internecine dissent on that issue.

      Th EU negotiating team of a newly independent Scotland would find itself in a much stronger position if there were an impending EU referendum in Scotland. Would most likely get a much more favourable deal and would call Europe’s bluff on Scotland’s post independence position.

      It is too late for Indyref 1 but I would strongly urge them, for the umpteenth time over the years, to get that in place even if now it would seem like copycat politics.

      No expectations there though. At a meeting in Ayrshire where Nicola Sturgeon was key speaker many years ago I made this case from the floor. She came into the audience and we ended up loudly ‘debating’ this nose to nose.

      By the way. I am very strongly pro EU and expect Scotland would vote for it. The above is purely a strategic imperative to me.

    32. Helena Brown says:

      I read most of what must be the longest apology or suicide note so far. I did not get the feeling though that there was any real understanding of why they lost, nothing to do with Miliband missing a bit out of a speech more to do with lack if courage in tackling the Tories head on. I would agree as long as there is anyone at the head of Labour who is at all tainted by the Brown/Blair Government they will remain in the wilderness of opposition and as I said in an other place as long as this party contains the likes of Rachel Reeves among others why should any normal person, hard working or other vote for them. Better with the Real Tory Party than the Pretendy one. As for their stance here, might as well give up. Donald Dewar left them a terrible legacy of third raters and they certainly do not have a pool of talent to draw from. I was stunned nay astonished to learn that the Deputy Dug passed exams with some glory. When I heard her say to Nicola that exams were too hard I though that in her case they were far too easy but then I thought the same of Lamont.

    33. ronnie anderson says:

      How apt, the thick of it. Alex Johnstone put back in his box by Nicola ha ha. I dont think he,ll be taking up her invitation to chap doors in Nicola,s constituancy.

    34. Jamie says:

      that’s unfair mate. Stuart McCall has been perfecting that hairdo for 30 or 40 years now.

    35. Chic McGregor says:

      I think Yvette Cooper is the main danger for us.

      Her and Ken MacIntosh for SLAB would be a game changer for SLAB’s prospects in 2016 IMV.

      Hopefully it will be Burnham/Dugdale instead.

    36. Jack Pranker says:

      Well said, Stu. It’s seems Auld Nick will be putting the chains on his SUV before Labour’ll get why they lost this election.

    37. heedtracker says:

      So lets get that David Alexrod over to sort it out. His fee’s half a million dollars so take him to an upscale Mayfair restaurant.

      “Still, the early signs about Miliband’s electoral instincts were not good. In the weeks before the European elections that May, Miliband’s pitch to the public remained mostly incoherent. On 15 May, a week before the vote, Miliband met with David Axelrod – Barack Obama’s chief campaign adviser, who had signed on as a consultant to the Labour campaign for an astronomical fee – at Corrigan’s, an upscale Mayfair restaurant. During the meal, Beales was fielding calls from Miliband, who was still asking him to think of a slogan for the remaining week of the European election campaign; Axelrod was appalled by the low quality of the ideas being discussed, which he derisively characterised as “Vote Labour and win a microwave”. Unless Miliband could present the public with a bigger and more inspiring message, Axelrod told him, it would be impossible to regain the support of the white working-class voters who were deserting the Labour party.”

      A year later, did Miliband have that bigger and more inspiring message? I mind their “we will raise the minimum wage, by fcuk all and by 2020, 20p a year, rejoice!”

      Axelrod’s often on Jon Stewarts Daily Show over there, soon to host Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.

    38. Bob Mack says:

      Excellent analysis Stu. The problem with Labour North ans South,is that they base their tactics on the thoughts of special advisors and experts as to how to conduct their election.Sadly ,most of these groupings are well out of touch with what the electorate really think,as demonstrated by their efforts to keep the common man or woman at arms length from the leaders.The Tories may eventually succumb to the same tactic.
      We need people like Nicola who live and breathe the same air as everyday normal people.That is why she is so well loved in Scotland.
      I see the inevitable end result as clear as day, should Scotland become aware that the Tories may also win the next election as well as this one.Unpalatable in the extreme,but ammunition to challenge the status quo of this union nonetheless I would suggest.

    39. R-type Grunt says:

      An excellent article Stu. Nice one.

      I’ve been arguing pretty much these same points on a Facebook group called British Politics. By its very nature of course the vast majority of contributors to that group are English but it’s interesting to eat just how uninformed the English public actually are.

      Please don’t read anything racist into this. Most of the contributors are not the stereotypical knuckle-draggers, of which we here in Scotland have more than our own fair share. No, most contributors do seem to be intelligent adults searching for a better way but, whether it’s because of the media or something else, they just don’t seem to be able to see a bigger picture. They only see the future through the prism of the current political settlement.

      It’s really sad to see to be honest. Thank God (or whoever) that I live in a country with real options. In no small part this is down to you Stu.

    40. Morag says:

      Desimond, of course I agree with you. My real point was that the sheer scale of the landslide was facilitated by Iain Gray’s ineptitude. I think the SNP would have had a good win regardless, but I think Gray (including but not limited to the Subway moment) was what turned it into an overall majority.

    41. Clarinda says:

      It might perhaps be of assistance to the Labour Party to note the insightful comment of the little cartoon character in the NYT – Pogo, who, with some resignation stated that “We have met the enemy – and he – is us”.

    42. G H Graham says:

      According to data provided by YouGov last June, 60% of those questioned felt Ed Miliband was “not up to the job” of being PM, compared to 20% who said he was. By contrast, more thought Cameron was up to the job (43%) than did not (39%).

      Furthermore, Ed Miliband was judged weak by 59% & strong by just 13%, while Cameron was seen as strong by 37% and weak by 33%.


      And by September, among Scottish voters, Ed Milliband was still less popular than David Cameron. And almost 60% of Scottish NO voters didn’t trust him.


      It takes little effort to find lots more examples of data that categorically show a chronic pattern of deep distrust in Ed Milliband, right across the UK.

      The only mildly interesting question is why Labour, its army of advisors including McTernan & McDougall & media friendly chums in London, collectively decided to stick their heads in the sand & hoped that a miracle of divine intervention would happen on Thursday, 7th of May?

    43. Croompenstein says:

      Are they going to get their letters expelling them from the Labour Party before or after they meet Yvette Cooper. The reason they voted SNP Yvette is because your party abandoned them

    44. Thistle says:

      OT: Citizen livestreamers are doing a crowdfunder and could be doing with your help.

      We have done up to 400 livestreams so far. We have just launched our cool Android App and are currently building one for iOS.

      If you can help by donating or even promote our link on social media:

      ps we are doing a “How To Livestream” meetup at the Counting House, Glasgow at 7PM. I will be the one wearing the white t-shirt with the Independence Live logo.


    45. bjsalba says:

      According to this article

      Aides told BuzzFeed News she will ask voters why they moved away from Labour and will also use the event to “test her own ideas” for the party’s future.

      Shouldn’t she wait until she has heard what these ex-Labour voters have to say before she puts together ideas for the party’s future?

      Listening doesn’t help if it goes in one ear and straight out the other.

    46. Morag says:

      This is all so true, and indeed so obvious, and Stuart pointed it out ages ago as he says.

      But even thinking it was so toxic before 7th May that Nicola Sturgeon was monstered in the press merely for a false report noting that she’d said it.

      There’s a moral there somewhere but I’m not sure what it is.

    47. geeo says:

      Is Yvette Cooper not the wife of Ed Balls though ?

      Fair or unfair, her Husband’s failure to even be re elected when he would have been in high office would be a millstone around her neck.

      The tory propaganda machine would have a field day imo.

    48. Ian Brotherhood says:

      John Reid!

      He’s just been on the radio, warning anyone who’ll listen that a ‘major strategic blunder’ has been made wrt naval defence.

      Aye, THAT John Reid – the one who claimed we’d be in and out of Afghanistan without a shot being fired.

      You couldn’t make this stuff up – ghosts and ghoulies from the past, refusing to go away… 🙁

    49. Charles Edward says:

      In a chilled room in the basement of International rescue there is a lone hooded figure.
      His hands and wrists strapped tight as his fists pummel the hanging carcass.

      ‘It ain’t about how hard you hit, it’s about how hard you can get hit.’

      That’s it kid.. Use the LEFT!

    50. farrochie says:

      The Paul Routledge biography of Gordon Brown gave insights into the working of his years in Downing St as chancellor and PM.

      As special adviser to Chancellor Gordon Brown from 1997 to 2002, Miliband would have been immersed in the shenanigans of those days, the plotting and briefing against Blair, the media rebuttal operation, the times of “good day for bad news” politicking.

      The Guardian article exposes the Miliband siege mentality that resulted from the Brownian approach to wheeling and dealing.

    51. george says:

      oh “jesus”, will you just leave mccall’s hair out of this!?

      other than that, thanks 🙂

    52. Clootie says:

      After watching FMQs today I am certaine that Scottish Labour is now in free fall. The move to the Right by the Labour Party should finish them off.

      The LibDems …. who?

      The Tories. You only had to listen to Alex Johnstone at FMQs today on welfare reform and you know just how heartless these London puppets are.

    53. Wulls says:

      Back in the heady days of John Major “New Labour” came out fighting for the Middle/ left vote. And they got it. The problem is the middle vote is notoriously fickle and without a real left leaning power base their long term future was bleak on a good day.
      How they survived when tony Blair stepped down was beyond me.
      Labour stopped representing their roots a long time ago.

    54. @ macart.

      On one of your points mac, “they had completely lost touch with the electorate”, I can relate an actual incident from our constituency where we were trying to overturn the sitting Labour M.Ps near 14,000 majority, thankfully successfully. A couple of days before the G.E, one of our canvassers had been at a door getting what we were finding was a common response, “we used to vote Labour, but they have nothing to offer us so the whole household is now voting S.N.P.” On the way out, who did he happen to meet but the Labour candidate who remarked to her, “You’re wasting your time, that’s a Labour house”. Now this from a person who had been largely invisible during the referendum campaign, and the same until the last few weeks of the G.E campaign he had rarely been seen.

      Apart from of course the main S.N.P strategy, and having a great leader in Nicola, the reason we won both contests was because of our local organisation. Staffed by first class people, a very hard working M.S.P, a good local candidate who connected with the people he would go on to represent, and down to the rest of us, the foot soldiers, out in all weathers, knocking on doors, making contact with the people who matter.
      While we are all grateful to the very necessary help from on high, I believe it was the sheer energy of all the local campaigns that contributed greatly to our ultimate success.

    55. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Are you seriously suggesting it was Labour’s position on an EU referendum that made all the difference? I mean really?”

      Yes, clearly I am. Not to the electorate as a whole, but to those people who said they were going to back UKIP but crucially went back to the Tories at the last minute.

      The problem is that you keep harping on about things we’ve dealt with, and that we spent the last three years pointing out. Polls are not a perfect science, certainly not in isolation. We told you IN ADVANCE that UKIP supporters would vote tactically and stop Labour winning key marginals by splitting the right-wing vote. We told you IN ADVANCE that there’s usually an advantage to the incumbent government (whatever colour) that doesn’t show up in polls. We told you IN ADVANCE about shy Tory syndrome. It all came true.

      We told you over and over and over again, not with hindsight but YEARS ahead, that England wasn’t going to elect Ed Miliband. We put actual money on it. And now that we’ve been proven right in the most spectacular fashion, you STILL insist on telling us we’re wrong.

    56. Bill Steele says:

      Your insights are compelling, Stuart.

    57. Marcia says:

      Good article. I was surprised during the election campaign period how inept the Labour campaign was. All they did was put up posters for either the television or newspapers to report on that. The ‘tablet of stone’ was very cringing to watch. Not everyone watched the news or read newspapers.

      They lost because of their poor campaign. I only received one leaflet from Labour and that was delivered by the Post Office. It was just a moan about the SNP, nothing positive about what Labour was really campaigning for.

    58. Macart says:

      @ Alex Beveridge


      Its the one to one contact, constantly open channels of communication with people on the streets and doorsteps which informs our parties what we require and which policies should be pursued. Once policies are formed that is also the place to sound out those policies and see what people think, to engage them and invite them along to make it happen.

      A lot of people, working very hard made both the YES campaign’s impact happen and the current GE victory possible, but most importantly it was the engagement of the general public. They were willing to listen to people who made the time and effort to listen to them.

      Now our MPs have one job, keep their word and fight our corner against one of the most punitive Conservative administrations in political history. They won’t win every fight, they can’t win every fight, but each concession they get will be precious for people. The people, an engaged and aware electorate will show their appreciation.

    59. heedtracker says:

      Darren says:

      “You see the Scottish Independence referendum did two things. It stirred up nationalist attitudes in Scotland but it also did exactly the same in England.”

      Facts though are, SNP offer Scotland independence and its not English nationalism wot won it, its English voters trying to block Scotland becoming an independent nation state.

      Even a possible Milliband government that needed a confidence and supply backing from the SNP would have pushed Scottish independence a lot further along.

      So Miliband had to destroy even that possibility and all to win the votes of English electorate absolutely determined to stop Scotland running Scotland.

      Check out their Smith Commission shyste. Its worked for now.

    60. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Nailed it Stu.

      I’ve been laughing all day at the westminster bubble reaction to the Gaurdian piece as it just proves how laughably out of touch they all are with the voters. 😀

      Not once does it occur to any of them that they are taking as gospel the excuses of Labour spinners and ‘insiders’ who were self-evidently shit at their job and desperate to put the blame anywhere but on themselves.

    61. Rob James says:

      Chic McGregor @ 12:31

      I agree entirely with your EU ref proposals, not only for the eurosceptic Yes voters, but as a bargaining tool to acquire the deals in the best interests of Scotland.

    62. HandandShrimp says:

      I don’t think I will ever forget the car crash interview when Ed told everyone “These strikes are wrong” using the same half a dozen focus group bullet points in a different order to answer each question. My son said at the time that Ed had failed the Turing Test and was in fact a replicant. This was right back at the beginning of his stint as leader. Little changed over the following 4 years to convince voters otherwise.

    63. Chic McGregor says:

      There must, of course, have been some effect of an impending SNP victory on the English electorate.

      How much or little? Is unknown. My suspicion is, that for most of them it would be well down the pecking order.

      I think we can be clearer though, on the types of effect, however small, it might have had.

      On the one extreme you probably do have the archi-typical DM reader who would be appalled at the thought of the Scotch having any say in their parliament.

      On the other, you have social-democratic mourners who would have welcomed the presence of an SNP which just might have nudged Labour back towards its traditional values.

      It is obvious the opposite voting influence both those stances might have had.

      And, of course, they would be divided across the usual greed contours on the political map as well as along the now well established North-South regional power lines.

      Small effect of unknown net balance re Labour support.

    64. Jim Thomson says:

      O/T – the Carmichael crowdfunder has slowed down a wee bit with less than £6k to go.

      Please help get it over the line

      Thanks 🙂

    65. Darren says:

      No Stuart you’re still not getting it.

      You weren’t adopting some radical blue sky thinking with those points you keep peddling. Many people were well aware of them.

      However, you are in complete and absolute denial if you can’t see that England, for that is where the election was ultimately won and lost, didn’t overwhelmingly reject the idea of a Labour/SNP alliance. The EU didn’t even figure prominently in people’s concerns leading up to the election and still doesn’t.

      I’ll say again, and perhaps you might actually respond to this point this time, why did the Tory campaign never focus on Labour not offering an EU referendum the way it did on the daily scare stories about the SNP holding the balance of power? Quite simply because it didn’t hold the same magnitude. Out of all the people I know who didn’t vote Labour not one of them has said the lack of an EU referendum was the deciding factor. The deciding factor was always and without fail either the last Labour government left the economy in a mess and they’d do it again or that they did not want the SNP holding the balance of power.

      Whether polls are a perfect science isn’t the point, the point is that almost everybody believed they were voting for some kind of coalition/alliance government rather than a majority government. I’ll say again they overwhelmingly rejected an alliance involving a party whose overall aim is to break up the UK.

      An unpalatable truth for you I’m sure but most people in England, and Wales for that matter, do not see the SNP as the knight in shining armour the way you do.

    66. Jim Thomson says:

      Serious question – just watching Stuart Hosie in the Commons. What does the guy sitting in the chair at the end of the chamber do? (no not the Speaker, the bloke at the SNP end).

      I noticed him thumbing through a wee book with what looked like pictures of the current crop of MPs in it and glancing across the chamber.

      Seems like a nice wee earner. I’m sure I could do that for a wee consideration.

    67. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      “the “shy Tory” factor”

      It always pays never to underestimate that as the nasty party is back with a vengeance so the amount of ashamed tory voters will obviously be increased.

      It’s no coincidence we are looking at some distinctly John Major style trends in the polling with the weak Cameron facing impending EU chaos and a split in his party. Those ashamed tory voters may have won Cameron (and Major) a very small majority but that small majority will only exacerbate the coming tory civil war and thus further increase the number of ashamed tory voters as the tory lunatics lose their minds over Europe and take centre stage.

      You add to that Labour’s complete inability to face up to the glaringly obvious fact that trying to be the tories just won’t work and it’s not looking too good for the westminster establishment parties for the next five years.

    68. Dr Jim says:

      BTW Kezia Dugdale was not quoting my research today at FMQs
      I am a different Dr Jim
      She was, in her own inimitable style making it up as she went along adding lots of little paintbrush strokes and colour like a primary school kid for effect of which there was none

      Anyway the Topic which is Showbusiness

      I wonder if there is a survey to ask the electorate who their MP actually is and did they vote for them on policy announcements or character
      In Scotland we, I think are slightly different from our southern cousins because of the Referendum we are more clued in

      Nicola Sturgeon became the Celine Dion or Elvis of the General election and I feel that she garnered the majority of the vote on pure popularity and one big message

      Miliband had no such appeal and no message

      Cameron threatened the English with doom and the loss of their fiefdom to us “Orrible thieving Jocks”

      The Winner “Yeay” and whoever’s in charge next time round will do exactly the same and guess what, the English will go for it again, because, and here it comes folks,

      They’re twenty years behind us

      They are the Social Club that refuses to move with the times “We still like Tommy Steele and maybe a bit of Chas and Dave but nothing too modern that’s why a lot of us wanted to vote UKIP but didn’t have the nerve”
      But one thing’s for sure they don’t like us Scots

    69. Taranaich says:

      Brilliant post, Rev. There is one phrase in Ms Powell’s letter that sticks out to me:

      The BBC’s relentless focus on Scotland.

      That’s the party of Keir Hardie. The party of Scottish Home Rule. The party of the people. Attacking the BBC for a “relentless focus” on Scotland, one of two signatories of the Act of Union, one of four nations of the United Kingdom, who just recently staged a referendum based upon their place in said state.

      And they wonder why we want to be independent?

    70. Macnakamura says:

      Tony Benn would say that policy is more important than personality.
      In an ideal world, he may have been absolutely right but this is far from being such a place.

      Milliband never looked like a leader from day one and this undermined his policies, good or bad.

      People of all political persuasions recognised this flaw and even the French Ambassador knew this, thus saving Nicola the bother of having to tell him.

    71. frogesque says:

      Yet more novel gazing by Labour. Until they stop chasing the electorate and actually discover some core principles (other than SNP bad) then they will remain irrevant to the RUk.

      Slab also have to recognise that they have to become a fully fledged independent party, based in Scotland, funded by Scots and working for the interests of the Scottish peoples or they will become a curiosity and an example to future students of ‘how not to do it’.

      However, it’s for them to work it out themselves how they will relate to an Independent Scotland.

    72. Democracy Reborn says:

      But Stu, what about Drew Jarvie’s haircut?

    73. Chic McGregor says:

      “No Stuart you’re still not getting it.”

      I think he does.

      Mind you, although I do not believe it, in a purely selfish way, I hope you are right in that the scenario you present would greatly accelerate the path to independence for Scotland.

    74. John king says:

      We can all go home now,
      Doug Daniel has said it all. @12.04

    75. HandandShrimp says:


      You may be right that the heavy play on the SNP frightened English voters. However, I doubt it had anything to do with the SNP goal of independence. The Tory press played the anti-Scottish card (not just SNP note but Scots generally) and there was a distinctly unpleasant xenophobia in the headlines.

      That played badly in Scotland…it didn’t play badly for the SNP though. The two countries now have little in common politically. Any notion of Better Together has been stabbed in the eyeballs with a rusty fork.

    76. boris says:

      O/T: This is the Tory MP that attacked Alex Salmond in Westminster yesterday. Michael Gove was spotted watching from the sidelines. The move was clearly well planned in advance by Scots born Tory MP’s. I might have a closer look at them

    77. Desimond says: you think many of the electorate knew who The Grey man ( clue is in the name) was let alone know or knew about his Subway moment. Labour were in freefall long before then. Jack McConnell was getting laughed at then ignored many moons before and before that Henry, donald and even the beloved John were seeing eyebrows raised.

      Chic…Labour are done. Cooper is the best leaderout of candidates but that actually means shes the least useless. Ken MacIntosh, oh a nice guy but so shat when your pArty and politcial model is sunk.

      No one has any respect for them on either side of the spectrum, the iceberg has already been struck and no leader can save them…I wouldnt be surprised to see an amalgamation with Libs as a new Democratic Party ( moving even more USA stylie) in the future.

    78. Taranaich says:

      @Darren: Whether polls are a perfect science isn’t the point, the point is that almost everybody believed they were voting for some kind of coalition/alliance government rather than a majority government. I’ll say again they overwhelmingly rejected an alliance involving a party whose overall aim is to break up the UK.

      And yet the Scots voted almost 50% explicitly in favour of that same party even after 2 million voted against independence last year. If England can’t stand even the idea of the SNP having some sort of influence on UK affairs when the majority of the people of Scotland are fine with that same party running the Scottish parliament for 7 years, then what hope is left for the union at all?

      I’ve seen a lot of anecdotal evidence for people citing the Labour/SNP thing as something the English were frightened of, but I’d very much like to see more evidence of it – not least because it makes a mockery of the idea that the politics of Scotland and England are more or less the same.

    79. manandboy says:

      After this piece, let me put it this way Stu – I think you deserve a raise, and probably not before time. So if you are happy with the idea, be assured you have my full support. And I’d bet most Wingers would agree with that.

      BTW, don’t worry, I won’t say a word about the 20 quid.

    80. heedtracker says:


      “I’ll say again they overwhelmingly rejected an alliance involving a party whose overall aim is to break up the UK”

      No you said it was our referendum wot won it

      “You see the Scottish Independence referendum did two things. It stirred up nationalist attitudes in Scotland but it also did exactly the same in England.”

      Stirred up’s tame but its British not English nationalism that the tory “Salmond is a pickpocket thief, Sturgeon’s the most dangerous woman in teamGB,” style campaign went after.

      Its why the BBC slammed in with all that very creepy BBC style monstering the SNP. No wonder it freaked out that Labour campaign chief Lucy Powell.

      Or, Calling all Britnats, the sweaties are rebelling, if they get near No.10, they’re away, they’ll steal our country, Salmond is a monster, so keep them in their place, vote Cameron, he’ll save teamGB power and glory in Scotland, long to reign to over them etc.

      Salmond clearly got a handle on how blue tory Britnats were wining, how the red tory Labour campaign flopped with it but
      Scotland wants devo-max, Salmond played British nationalists perfectly at their own dirty game.

      2015 GE result in Scotland was the 2014 referendum result, without Project Fear scaring the life out of everyone, plus that historic THE VOW fraud, that duped a lot of voters too but to say

      “By 2020 the referendum issue will be out of the way.” lol:D

      You really don’t get it Darren.

    81. Jim Mitchell says:

      Point one, If ever there was a classic case of ‘to many Indians etc’, this has to be it!

      Point two, the curse of Gordon strikes again!

      Point three, the antics of these ‘experts’ could not be further removed from what Labour was/is supposed to be about, can you imagine the founders of the party planning a campaign in this way, lots of strategy, that didn’t work, but no heart, they (thankfully) seem to have spent too much time trying to read and counter the Tories campaign and not enough in trying shape and sell their own!

      No wonder their campaign was useless from top to bottom!

    82. t42 says:

      @chick mcgregor
      “I am very strongly pro EU and expect Scotland would vote for it”

      Bet that’s what you said about indyref1 before the vote.
      Basing a strategy over a flimsy assumption is not credible.

    83. Chic McGregor says:

      Time for some astute polling to shed light on this matter?

      And other things. 😉

    84. dakk says:

      I would like to see Labour disappear as they are toxic opportunist faux socialist beyond redemption.

      Maybe a new English National Party with the values of the SNP might resonate with the traditional Labour vote in England if it was run by some new progressive blood.

      MSM wouldn’t sell that would they.

    85. @Dr Jim

      I have a suspicion that the Dr whose figures Kezia keeps using is the same one who is a Labour activist in Ian Murray’s constituency.

    86. ClanDonald says:

      Did anyone else just hear the tory MP Lucy Frazer say in the House of Commons that one solution to the West Lothian Question would be for the British to enslave the Scots and send them off to the colonies?

      Is this what the out of touch tories think humour is? Foolish woman, what folly, what arrogance.

    87. John king says:

      Jim Thompson @2.05
      I wondered about him as well, could he be the remembrancer?

    88. Grouse Beater says:

      Dame Nellie Soubry at it again, goading Salmond.

      Her example of civilised debate in the House of Commons.

      Salmond replies:

    89. Giving Goose says:

      In the Guardian piece the writer uses the phrase “..the specific “retail” offers to the electorate that tested well in focus groups…”

      To continue the shopping metaphor, I believe that to understand one of the fundamental issues where the Labour campaign failed is to talk about the political parties as supermarkets.

      Labour began the campaign offering various Retail offerings which were essentially identical to the Tories. However when the (buying) voting public didn’t appear to want to shop with Labour, they, Labour, started to advertise cut price offers in a bid to make them more appealing.
      The trouble with that approach is that it cheapened the appeal of the produce.

      If you compare the Tories with Waitrose, you know that the brand on offer is sound; it does what it says on the tin. When you open the tin you get a tried and trusted product. No need to make cut price offers with this one. Just look in the car park and you can see by the shopper’s demographic, the cars, the Cath Kidston bags on show that someone trusts the products. That’s attractive.

      Labour’s fatal mistake was to start out as a Waitrose and then to realise that you can’t have 2 Waitroses on the same road. The shoppers will go to the first one because they trust it.

      Labour’s solution was worse; to start cutting prices while trying to convince the shopping public that the quality of the product remained high. In effect they became a Pound Shop trying to flog Waitrose goods and the potential buyers won’t trust that. The products on sale probably fell off the back of a lorry and had their sell buy dates falsified.

      The English MSM painted Labour’s potential supplier, the SNP, as dodgy.
      Who is going to shop at a supermarket, with crap products supplied by an untrustworthy supplier? Goodness knows what you’d be buying.

      The way to have won the shopping war was blindingly simple.

      At the beginning don’t attempt to pass yourself off as a carbon copy of the other supermarket. What’s the point of shopping somewhere different that sells the same goods for the same price.

      You set yourself apart. You go into the shopping war with a sound suite of products, bullet proof, different, appealing, your market research rock solid. You know that shoppers will want to shop with you, buy your product.

      And with confidence in that product, you can gently swipe away the attacks on the product, the suppliers, the packaging etc.

    90. Capella says:

      It is a fascinating insight into the inner workings of Labour and about time the Guardian started to think objectively.

      As for the perception that English voters were frightened of a Labour / SNP alliance – is there any evidence for that? I recall Nicola Sturgeon being very popular after the TV debate. If Ed Miliband had endorsed an alliance of progressive parties he would have sounded more statesman like. The perception that he was “not Prime Minister material” was largely the Tory line, subtly attributed to Nicola Sturgeon in the Frenchgate smear.

      People become more Prime Ministerial after they are elected. The perception of power and the media endorsement see to that.

      Far from English nationalism being a result of Scottish nationalism, I would suggest it is in fact the other way round. Years of being subjected to the English National Party (commonly known as the Tories) have persuaded Scottish voters to opt out and mind their own affairs, free from Tory Westminster interference.

    91. James says:

      The Guardian article refers to the actual reason the Tories are in power and it is not the subject of this article. It says that Labour “had no data on the Tory/Lib Dem marginals”.
      The 16 seats that went from Lib-Dem to Tory in south west England is where the Tory majority came from and where the “progressive alliance” was lost.
      Nothing to do with UKIP and all to do with “vote Miliband get Salmond”.

    92. John king says:

      Rmembrancer! Wasn’t he in one of the Harry potter films?

    93. Dr Jim says:

      @cynicalHighlander 2;48pm

      It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of so called (Experts) on everything who blindly produce opinions as fact
      and then later invariably are found to be mistaken or wrong or were misquoted or were taken out of context

      You have to ask yourself what’s wrong with these people
      they keep scribbling out papers on God knows what in the hope somebody takes them seriously or their desire to be constantly quoted and misquoted is so overwhelming as to eclipse the fact they don’t half the time know what they’re talking about

      The whole thing beats me I’ve got children and grandchildren for goodness sake I wouldn’t want them to think of their old man as a Ninny or figure of fun (nearly said fudge there)

      Be assured any paper of mine will never be seen and never has because (and this is what they all forget)

      I would probably end up being badly wrong and that’s why I always say my opinion is only an important fact to me
      To everyone else it’s Dr Who? Dr of Whit?

      I just wish this guy didn’t have the same name

    94. Petra says:


      Chunkymark talking to Tommy Sheridan about Coulson.

      ‘’The Scottish Crown Office deliberately sabotaged their own case because they knew if Coulson was found guilty of perjury ………. all of the collusion and all of the corruption that went on in 2010 would be exposed at the appeal Court in Edinburgh. That’s what they were frightened of. That’s what they were trying to cover up.’’

    95. Chic McGregor says:

      What flimsy assumption? All the polling I’ve seen on EU membership in Scotland has been in favour.

      Also I am not basing the strategy on that contingency anyway. That is a wrong assumption.

      I would rather an Independent Scotland outside the UK and outside of the EU than a Dependent Scotland inside the UK and inside the EU.

      It just makes more strategic sense.

      A no EU referendum policy did cost us votes in indyref 1. Or are you denying that?

      Polarisation of the issue due to the EU referendum debate will only increase that loss of support for the SNP and any near future indyref2 if the same policy stands.

      But also, there is a principle of democracy here.

      Similar to my supporting the Carmichael must go fundraiser raised by his constituents.
      Even though I believe his staying has more benefit for the SNP and the indy cause than his going.

      Or indeed, similar to Nicola’s own democracy defence when she is asked about a future indy ref. i.e. ‘Not up to me, up to the people of Scotland’.

      It has an innate democratic legitimacy. It is the right thing to do.

      What better way to demonstrate an on going championing of the principle that sovereignty lies with the Scottish people?

      What more appropriate time than to seek that sovereign approval after negotiating a new EU deal for an independent Scotland.

      Oh and this strategy is not hindsight.
      Neither was my view on the indyref1 outcome which was somewhat less optimistic than average but largely for many other reasons.

    96. Sinky says:

      Even if Labour had won every seat in Scotland, other than just in Morningside, they couldn’t have stopped Tory cuts.

      BBC reports this afternoon that
      Scotland will face a £176.8m cut in public spending this year as a result of a savings plan announced by the UK Chancellor.

      George Osborne told MPs in the House of Commons that £4.5bn would be removed from departmental budgets.

      However, Scotland’s Finance Secretary John Swinney said that the cut was an “unexpected and unwarranted” imposition of further austerity.

    97. Chic McGregor says:

      “Chunkymark talking to Tommy Sheridan about Coulson”

      Said it before and I’ll say it again. There is Lies, Damned Lies and State Tactics.

    98. Luigi says:

      Labour’s problems did not start during the GE campaign. This goes way back, several cycles. Labour lost the political initiative, north and south of the border, on Gordon Brown’s watch. Around 2007, when Cameron was on the back foot and he bottled a snap election, and then he lost his grip on Scotland, allowing Salmond to take control of Holyrood. The way I see things, over Iraq, deregulation and the consequent economic mess etc, Gordon Brown played a critical part in Labour’s collapse.

      So one of our ex-imperial masters, Ms. Cooper, is coming north to speak to the natives and find out what went wrong in Scotland? No quick fix, I’m afraid. Scotland may one day return to voting Labour, but it will be a long time after her political career is over, if at all.

    99. Grouse Beater says:

      There’s a myriad of reasons the Tories took control of Britain again, but the one everybody could see without doing any research was Miliband.

      Can you imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger confronted as weak and shouting, “Of course I am tough!”

    100. Petra says:

      @ ClanDonald says ”Did anyone else just hear the tory MP Lucy Frazer say in the House of Commons that one solution to the West Lothian Question would be for the British to enslave the Scots and send them off to the colonies? Is this what the out of touch tories think humour is? Foolish woman, what folly, what arrogance.”

      Colony. Isn’t that defined as a territory under the immediate political control of the State? Enslave meaning to cause someone to lose their freedom of choice or action.

      I thought that’s what they had done to us already, lol.

      I’m just waiting for them to suggest enforced euthanasia next or maybe a wee chemical weapon experiment. How they would love to totally clear Scotland of the troublesome plebs, spread themselves out and rob away unhindered.

    101. call me dave says:

      In the seating plan for the House of Commons (see link):

      Seat 24 is reserved for the Sergeant at Arms

      I saw this posted a few threads back. But it easily googled.

    102. call me dave says:

      Should have added that ‘The Beast of Balsover’? is not in the third party (seats 21) and therefore, if ejected, deserves to be!

    103. Jim Thomson says:

      @John king 3:10pm

      Not sure, but he’s no awfy guid at remembering if he needs a wee book 😉

      @boris 2:26pm

      Here’s the Hansard link (search for Mark Menzies) and it’s on page 711 – but, there’s the “behave yourself, woman” incident on the previous page 🙂

    104. kininvie says:

      Without access to the Tories’ polling data, we don’t know exactly how the anti-SNP thing played out. But we do know that the UKIP vote shifted back to the Tories, and although EUref may have been the main driver for that, the ‘break-up-Britain’ propaganda probably helped a great deal.

      But the main purpose (and success) of the SNP hate fest was to put unbearable pressure on Miliband to rule out a deal with the SNP. He succumbed – presumably with the idea of winning in Tory/Lab marginals – but at a stroke he lost both Scotland (no reason left for voting Lab) and all the English voters who quite fancied a progressive alliance…

      The genius of the ‘pocket’ ads – was that they confirmed people’s idea of Ed as being too weak to stand up to Salmond, while at the same time raising the spectre of England being ruled by ‘illegitimate’ Scots.

      Brilliant! – and of course, while a Tory govt. was not maybe the SNP’s preferred option, it very definitely has advantages – not least in not having to prop up an unpopular Labour leader, and probably an incompetent government…

    105. Iain More says:

      So in theory Labour just might have done better if it also agreed to hold an EU Referendum and thus keep the Kippers at home in the Kipper Party. I guess that was the fault of the bad wicked evil SNP as well.

      I guess it was also the fault of the bad wicked evil SNP that Millibland was a total dick.

      I don’t think the thought of the SNP being part of the Govt scared any English at all, the Opinion Pollsters just got it bloody wrong when it came to English voting intentions. I repeat my assertion Millibland is a dick and was never going to be PM with or without SNP support.

    106. heedtracker says:

      Chunkymark talking to Tommy Sheridan about Coulson ends with a great quote. Tory boy world really went the extra etc to save Coulson. Sheridan still guilty too. Result.

      Its like living in 18th Century Scotland, apart from the internet, cars, electric, planes, tv, no public hanging, BBC anti Scottish democracy attack propaganda…

      “I swear by [substitute Almighty God/Name of God (such as Allah) or the name of the holy scripture] that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but only if it’s relevant to this case, m’lud”

    107. Jim Thomson says:

      @call me dave 3:56pm

      Thanks for that link. I still think it would be a grand job and I bet it pays reasonably well. Bet the uniform is free too.

    108. Take Independence says:

      This is the same party that told us that they would rather see e Tories in than work with the SNP and then told the Russians that of course he wouldn’t push the RED button and that England as a whole calling out for a referendum on Europe and he says no. Then forgot the mention deficit in his speech in Manchester but let’s remember he memorised the whole speech, who can do that. Ed stone mimicking Neil Kinnock hell yeah I am strong then nearly falling off the stage. And that he was destined to have a majority and he didn’t need anybody other than England I think we can all say England let you down Ed. I can just see Ed Stone biography 101 way I F*ck up and I still wouldn’t have been Prime Minister as I didn’t have a majority. He might just give me the Job.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      Labour didn’t do well in England, but neither were they significantly damaged relative to 2010. To win, they had to gain, instead they stood still.

      Stu’s analysis of why they failed is IMV probably correct – Milliband and voters from UKIP plus hidden Tories.

      However we should remember how this played out.

      The net flow of seats from Lab to Tory in England was one (if my memory serves me).

      The Tories moved ahead by taking more of the LibDem seats which were up for grabs.

      And, Labour fell back overall courtesy of events in Scotland.

      I cannot imagine how Labour can recover in England. Certainly as far as Scotland is concerned, I hope they never do.

    110. Chic McGregor says:

      Of course Miliband could be tripping… err, again.

    111. Almannysbunnet says:

      Yvette Cooper wants to know why labour supporters moved to the SNP in their droves? You could write a book, or she could just read the last two years of wings. I’ll put it in a nutshell for her.
      Labour first Scotland second, from their own lips!
      And, if she wants to know why we will continue voting SNP for Westminster she just needs to look along her front bench, to the left, and watch how the SNP are performing. That, Yvette, is a party turning up en mass and speaking up for it’s constituents. That’s what we voted for and that is what labour have forgotten. The SNP are connected to the people, labour is not.

    112. crazycat says:

      @ Jim Thomson, John King and call me dave

      I watched the clips of the maiden speeches and also wondered who the chap at the end was. He looked remarkably like Rhodes Boyson (, but he’s dead and therefore no longer an MP.

      There may have been more than one person occupying this seat at various times, but I’ve discovered that the one I saw is in fact called Robin Fell, the Principal Doorkeeper ( – I didn’t spot him reading a book though.

      The Remembrancer (who represents the City of London) lurks behind the Speaker’s Chair, to prod him/her if and when anything is done which disadvantages the City – which tells you all you need to know about the function of the Westminster parliament, I think.

      According to Wikipedia, the Clerks sit next to the Speaker to provide advice/information if necessary.

    113. John king says:

      Crazy at says
      “He’s dead therefore no longer an mp”

      Are you sure about that?

    114. handclapping says:

      It was a net 1 to Labour; won 10 lost 9

    115. Darren says:

      heedtracker if you could just move away from your mindset for a second and recognise the world does not revolve around Scotland, the referendum I was referring to was the EU referendum.

      In 2020 there won’t be an argument as to whether any of the governing parties should offer an in/out EU, that’s EU referendum. Will Labour’s problems ease as a result? Of course they won’t.

      Those saying the 2 countries are far removed in terms of politics right now have it absolutely right. Scotland has shifted a little further to the left whilst England has shifted towards the right. To have any chance of getting Scotland back on side Labour would have to go the left. To win over middle class English they have to go towards the right. It isn’t hard to see where the problems lay and why this election was lost. Harsh reality but middle class England wins and loses elections.

      I have to say I find it absolutely remarkable that people on here are prepared to believe that the Tories and their cohorts in the media went to town on something i.e. Labour aligning with the SNP, which wasn’t going to make the difference. Or why Miliband was so desperate to distance himself from the prospect for that matter. It’s almost scarcely believable head in the sand stuff.

      So yes I absolutely get it. Maybe if your views weren’t so completely influenced by independence you might get it too.

    116. handclapping says:

      @John King
      I think Yvette only needs to speak to you. When the SNP canvasser got you and Irene wrong the candidate was out there tout de suite to see why. And he didn’t call you a bigot.

      Other detractive descriptions are available, however. 😉

    117. call me dave says:

      In the Herald:
      Battle of Buttockburn could be about to enter new phase

      THE three-week unresolved row over who sits where in the House of Commons, dubbed the Battle of Buttockburn, could be about to escalate.

      It is believed the SNP, which has been in hot dispute with Labour over its attempt to occupy the front row seats next to the official Opposition’s frontbench, is now prepared to order its MPs into Parliament as early as 7am and even block Labour appointments to Commons committees to get its way.

      The Nationalists, now the third party at Westminster, believe they have the right to sit in a block on the front rows, which have in recent years been occupied by Labour’s left-wing rebels, including veteran Dennis Skinner. But the Labour MPs- have refused to budge.

      With no agreement in sight, a senior SNP source, branding the Labour leadership “petty” for failing to come to an agreement, said: “If they want to play silly games, we’ll play silly games.”

      He explained: “We need to take a deep breath and say: ‘Do we want to be the official third party and everything that entails’? If so, we have to fight this.”

      The source added: “We can march our MPs to get in at 7am every day. We can block every Labour change in committees. There is a lot we can do.”

      Labour’s Sir Gerald Kaufman, the Father of the House, has decried the SNP’s attempts to dislodge some of his colleagues, branding Nationalist MPs “goons”.

    118. Grizzle McPuss says:

      Back in February, I was writing on WoS:-

      “I think for many of us (of the former Labour ilk) the last of the leaders worth any kind of respect was the late John Smith.

      To watch & listen to adenoid Ed, always working from a script, never really engaging and free thinking in his rhetoric is just so…uninspiring”

      Before Ronnie & Patrician skelp me again, I’m only including the John Smith part for context.

      The main point, as Stu’s article succinctly puts it; Ed has been a dead duck leader from the outset, and some of us were also agreeing long ago on this point.

      How many televisions had objects thrown at them by Labour acolytes the day Ed beat Dave in the leadership election? In retrospect, probably a fortunate manoeuvre for the independence movement thanks to the Unions.

      Inspiring Ed was not. Top table material? And I can’t help think that in the age of sound-bite and meme, too many folks were influenced by the comparison of blundering Ed versus “I hate him, but he strings a sentence together” Dave

      And sadly it’s still the same situation for Labour in either branches today (who frankly I don’t give a toot about)…they have no-one of real conviction let alone socialist principle…no-one daring to set a toe in the direction of a left-wing alternative and return to brand-Labour.

      Labour has long since sold its soul to the pseudo-aspirational, free market dogma spouted by their adopted chums in the Tory Party, aka Blairism. Labour takes the subs with the left hand and shakes the markets hand with the right. For Labour, the pursuit of power now far influences the historic ambition “To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof…”

      Given these factors of leadership woes & party identity, as Stu alludes, English voters will prefer continuing with the Tory-familiar as opposed to the Labour-imitation.

      Undoubtedly with the heightened EU debate that has raged throughout the south for the past decade, the Tories will continue to attract and dominate that significant ground, helped by their UKIP fear factor which has driven them at long last to deliver the long requested for referendum.

      The one thing that I’m struggling to fathom out: where does opinion on the EU really sit with business & populace in Scotland? Have the SNP government really grasped the correct end of this particular thistle?

    119. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “However, you are in complete and absolute denial if you can’t see that England, for that is where the election was ultimately won and lost, didn’t overwhelmingly reject the idea of a Labour/SNP alliance.”

      I’m going to assume you mean “DID overwhelmingly reject”. But you know that I live here, right?

      You’re not listening. You talk about the people you know who didn’t vote Labour, but the people who didn’t want a Labour/SNP alliance were never going to vote Labour anyway. That’s not what cost Labour the election. What cost them the election – other than their own ineptitude – was that they didn’t win seats where they expected UKIP to damage the Tories and let them in. You’re talking about Labour-to-Tory swing voters, I’m talking about UKIP-to-Tory swing voters, the ones referenced in the Guardian piece.

      The reason Labour didn’t win those seats was that a significant proportion of the UKIP vote realised that the one thing they wanted more than anything else was in danger if Ed Miliband got in.

      What do UKIP supporters care about most – an EU referendum or SNP influence on a Labour government they already didn’t want? Get a grip. Ed Miliband could only form an alliance with the SNP if he was in power, and if he was in power UKIP voters had already lost because they wouldn’t have had their referendum. Their job was to keep him out full stop, not keep him from working with the SNP.

    120. heedtracker says:

      Ed wasn’t cut out for public meeting stuff at all.

      Mind the tv debate where he tripped leaving the stage? Tory plants in the audience were really laying into Crash Gordon and the Flipper’s borrowing splurge, but one dude said if he couldn’t afford a pint at the end of the week, he didn’t have a pint at the end of the week. All Ed had to say was government borrowing is nothing like buying a pint at the end of week but he froze and the tory plants glowed as they scented his fear.

      Crash and the Flipper caused this end of Labour era and both are now minted. Nothing speaks louder in Scotland than UKOK reality.

      Crash even grovelled to Murdoch using his own family for political gain and look where it got him, ” Most Unpopular Prime Minister Ever” Murdoch headline.

    121. terry says:

      while I agree that Milliband was unpopular with the punters on the street I think you do have a wee point when you say “but most people in England, and Wales for that matter, do not see the SNP as the knight in shining armour” And that is largely because of the MSM.

      However on the other hand a significant amount of the electorate in England did see the SNP as a “knight in shining armour”. Sadly they seemed to be outweighed by a gullible bunch of UKIPers returning to the Tories as the SNP was painted as another Brussels – ie telling the English what to do – how very dare they!! What? A “foreign” country having a say in the running of England? Uppity Jocks were not to be countenanced.

      These are the folk who glory in the days of the Empire and their egos bristle when Brussels “tells them what to do”. They have put up with the Scots cos we are fewer in number so far (among other reasons eg oil etc) – but the very thought of them having influence over parliament – that would never do.

      Just a hunch but I think the problem with a significant part of the English electorate is too much ego (hangover of Empire?)- while the Scots underestimate their potential. But the latter is always redeemable via education and empowerment – which we witnessed last year. The former is a far more serious problem.

    122. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ‘The Guardian article refers to the actual reason the Tories are in power and it is not the subject of this article. It says that Labour “had no data on the Tory/Lib Dem marginals”.
      The 16 seats that went from Lib-Dem to Tory in south west England is where the Tory majority came from and where the “progressive alliance” was lost.”

      No. That was already factored into the polls. Where seats were between the Tories and the Lib Dems it was obvious that the Lib Dem collapse would mean the Tories winning them.

      (And if they’d stayed Lib Dem they’d just have contributed to a continuation of the coalition anyway. They weren’t what cost Labour the election, because Labour never had a chance of winning them.)

      The marginals Labour expected to win but didn’t were the ones where the UKIP vote didn’t damage the Tories enough to let Labour in.

    123. Capella says:

      OT BBC documentary about Tommy Sheridan, broadcast 23rd December 2010, with the remarkably impartial title, “The Rise and Lies of Tommy Sheridan”.

      In the light of the recent court case Andy Coulson’s evidence is interesting. But it’s all worth a watch.

    124. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I wondered about him as well, could he be the remembrancer?”

      I immediately thought the same, but nobody seems to know definitively where the Remembrancer sits. The Guardian say he sits “behind” the Speaker, the Mirror says he sits to the right and Wiki says he sits in the “under-gallery”, “facing” the Speaker. The last of those descriptions would fit the chap seen on TV this week, but is much further away than the others suggest.

    125. heedtracker says:


      “Scotland has shifted a little further to the left whilst England has shifted towards the right”

      Is this really what’s happening? Scotland’s always been to the left of England or at least in modern history it has.

      Excuse my presumption but youre clearly against Scotland running Scotland. Fact is though, the majority of voters in Scotland are Pro EU and want devo max from England above all else.

      The Smith Commission is a giant tory con. So cue next five years of pathetic struggles as the unionist propaganda machine attempting to fool Scotland into accepting Smith is not a blatant shyste, also attack SNP for the failure of it all. UKOK press and BBC Scotland are well up for it too.


    126. Robert Louis says:

      It states in the guardian article, that Labour didn’t foresee how much they might take the blame for the defeat of Scottish independence;

      Quote: “another of Miliband’s closest advisers said. “We never foresaw how much we would get the blame for the defeat.””

      Source :

      The sad truth is, however, that I and others predicted right after the Edinburgh agreement, that Labour joining with the tories against independence, AND their refusal to countenance a ‘devo max’ style second question, would put them firmly in a lose-lose situation, no matter the outcome.

      Still, to this day, Labour sneer and snort at even the word SNP. Yet had they (as I and others suggested at the time), pushed for a second devo max type question, then that question would have won (all the polls showed ‘devo max’ to be a winner). Labour might now have 40 or more Scottish seats, they would be seen as the champions of Scotland, and they would have taken back their crown from the SNP.

      This was all set out to them by myself and others many years ago, in advance of the referendum campaign, but their pathetic childish hatred of the SNP meant they did not even stop to think strategically.

      That is why labour lost Scotland. They turned their backs on us all, when their was the biggest freaking open goal just waiting for them.

      Since Labour still have not accepted what happened, and understood why they lost in Scotland, they remain unelectable, and generally despised by most sane Scots.

    127. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Checked with the nerdiest politics nerd I know, and it seems the Remembrancer sits in the seats marked “25” here:

    128. Michael McCabe says:

      The SNP just lost there Amendment to the Queens speech on the Scotlland act bill. the Ayes 60 the no’s 318 Labour must have Abstained. Hope the people of Scotland know what the labour party stands for ? It sure as hell aint Scotland.

    129. MolliBlum says:

      Well, perhaps the last Labour MP standing in Scotland can redeem himself by walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.

      Our new Shadow State Secretary of Scotland, Ian Murray, MP for Edinburgh South (now also known as Red Morningside) campaigned on an anti-Trident stance and insisted he would never vote FOR Trident renewal — which, as the alert readers of WoS know — does not necessarily mean he would ever vote AGAINST it.

      And, as a quick check over at theyworkfor you dot com indicates… he never has voted on this issue.

      So some folks in his constituency have got together a wee petition to hold him to his word. And, since he is now a member of the shadow cabinet, many people further afield than his constituency might want to have a say on this too…

    130. Vronsky says:

      Looking a little ahead, Labour cannot be allowed to die. They have a vital role in supporting the illusion of democratic choice in England. Right now the financiers and hedge-fund managers are gathering at the graveside, wondering how they can reanimate the corpse. And they will.

    131. Blair paterson says:

      I was looking forward to seeing and hearing the S.N.P. 2 questions to the P.M. But I am still non the wiser nothing on the radio or the tv it is almost as if we do not exist of course they wish wish we didn’t

    132. Al-Stuart says:

      O/T Just observed a live vote in the House of Commons with Stewart Hosie for the SNP proposing an amendment to the Queen’s Speech (I paraphrase from memory here) …

      That The Smith Commission Be Progressed In Full

      The result was 60 FOR and 318 AGAINST the Smith Commission.

      Not totally sure of the logistics, but from my view that seems to be it….


      So THAT appears to be it!

      Scotland is now on it’s way to Indyref2 and I am sure many, many people who voted NO on the VOW at Indyref1 will be absolutely furious.

      The Establishment and Unionist parties have had their chance and shown their true colours. Those colours are filthy.

      This is a landmark vote and I suspect some decent forenscic journalists from The National and The Sunday Herald to analyse who the 318 duplicitous MPs were that voted to stuff Lord Smith and confirm that the House of Commons are filled with liars from the Unionist parties. Maybe MR Malcolm Bruce was telling the truth, at least when it comes to Unionist MPs and how their personal relationship with the truth is a strained affair.

      I am not surprised, but utterly disgusted at these Vow lying people.

    133. Onwards says:

      I remember thinking it was just a matter of time before Miliband did a U-Turn and backed an EU referendum.

      That one Tory pledge meant that previously Tory UKIP supporters had a good reason to go back to the Tories, but previously Labour UKIP supporters would stick with UKIP – if they couldn’t bring themselves to completely cross the divide and vote Tory.

      The Occam’s Razor principle is probably correct.
      Disaster of a policy and a disaster of a leader.

    134. Chitterinlicht says:

      Labour lost it a long time ago.

      i despised their ilk when a student at Glasgow Uni 25 years ago-smugness personified – guaranteed right to rule us and get our votes –

      navel gazing make believe student politics la la loopsy land self serving career aspiring no marks almost to a tee

      Idiots and pity the fools that voted for them a trusted them in indeyref

      Put them in a museum with the all the other dinosaurs

      not that grumpy but getting it off my chest as going on hols

    135. call me dave says:

      When Parliament is sitting The Remembrancer has a special seat to the right of the Speaker in the House of Commons

      As Elizabeth II takes to the throne in the House of Lords for the Queen’s Speech today, a ­little-known figure will be taking his special seat close by – all the better to scrutinise every new piece of legislation for how it benefits or damages the banks.

      He’s the only non-MP or civil servant with a seat in the House of Lords and House of Commons.

      His job dates back to Henry VIII.

      He has a budget of £5.3million, a staff bill of £500,000 – including a team of six lawyers – and he represents bankers’ interests at the heart of our democracy.

      He’s called The Remembrancer.

      And – as the banks get away scot free and disabled people pay for the banking crisis, as millionaires get tax cuts while poor people get taxed on how many bedrooms they have – a new campaign by pressure group Avaaz called “Kick Bankers Out of Parliament” is beginning to ask exactly why he’s still allowed the special ­privileges he has.

      The shortest explanation is this: over 1,000 years, kings, queens and governments have been saved by loans from the City of London – the 1.2 square miles at the heart of Britain’s financial centre.

      In exchange the City of London has extracted great privileges that still distort our ­democracy.

      Nicholas Shaxson, who wrote the brilliant investigation into the City of London, Treasure Islands, calls him the “world’s oldest ­institutional lobbyist”.

      As if having 18 millionaires in the Cabinet isn’t enough to advance big money’s interests, when Parliament is sitting he has a special seat to the right of the Speaker in the House of Commons.

      He also has a mirror image seat in the Lords.

      Shaxson says a previous ­Remembrancer boasted his role was to “oppose every bill which would interfere with the rights and privileges enjoyed by the Corporation”.

      The post dates back to some trouble the City had with Henry VIII’s adviser Cardinal Wolsey commandeering the armour and plate of its livery ­companies.

      In 1571, it created the post of ­Remembrancer to “remind the king of his debt” and make sure the City’s interests were never again affected by ­Parliament.

    136. G4jeepers says:

      I feel a “Stuart McCalls’ haircut” theme tune developing here.

      As to the Labourites, they blew it with Ian Gray, he looked too much like lord Farquar in Shrek, therefore too Tory.

      If they want to get back to any semblance of trust with the public they’d be as well put Denis Skinner up for leader.

    137. Lollysmum says:

      Radio interview with Radio Orkney & Tim Morrison one of the #CarmichaelMustGo legal action

    138. Joemcg says:

      Re-that smith vote. So they want EVEL but English MPs have just kyboshed more powers for Scotland. What a bloody cheek.

    139. Closetjambo says:

      Spot on, Stu.

      I think one day that a book of the best of the posts to this site will be published as a commentary on the way the political landscape changed in this country and how it wiped out the (mostly Labour) dinosaurs.

      This article will definitely be in that collection.

    140. heedtracker says:

      Right now the financiers and hedge-fund managers are gathering at the graveside, wondering how they can reanimate the corpse. And they will.

      Good point. BBC r4 tea time news just welcomed back with open arms Ed Miliband from his hols, very warm BBC welcome indeed, after monstering him for years. They are rather enraged at Salmond’s “behave woman” thing though.

      Holy shit the BBC stinks.

    141. msean says:

      One of the best posts re this election yet. Can’t believe Labour wrote that to a broadcaster after last years referendum bias.

    142. Dal Riata says:

      “Walking down Whitehall naked assaulting random passersby would have been better than having another day on whether we would do a deal with the SNP. It was murdering us.”

      … “The only reason it [the ‘Ed stone’] got through 10 planning meetings was because we were all distracted, looking for a way to punch through on the SNP,” one adviser said.”

      … “Miliband’s aides say that, looking back, he blames the Labour defeat on the SNP…”

      SNP bad!… then, now, and forever more as long as Scotland is part of the UK.

      How very dare Scots reject Westminster and call out for something better, tsk!

      And it’s all our (the SNP’s) fault that Labour lost the election, says poor delusional Ed Miliband – dearie, dearie me!

    143. Dal Riata says:


      So, for voting No to our independence George Osborne rewards us by thieving another £170m of Scotland’s money.

      Aww, that’s nice, eh. Better together, and all that.

      Thanks a lot proudScotbuts.

    144. Robert Louis says:


      That vote is very interesting. Of course nobody seriously believed Westminster would keep its word, except perhaps the failed Labour Prime minister, Gordon Broon.

      Indy vote 2 will son be on its way, once people have a wee taste of just how evil the Tories are, when they have a majority at Westminster. The last five years of Tory/Libdem coalition were nothing to what is coming now.

    145. call me dave says:

      BBC reporting:

      Around 20 jobs are under threat at the Daily Record and Sunday Mail newspapers.

      The company is looking to make savings in the face of the continuing decline in sales. Most of the jobs under threat are in production and managerial roles.

      Last month the Record’s circulation officially fell below 200,000 for the first time in recent decades.

      The Sunday Mail’s sales have also fallen significantly in recent years.

      All this in spite of the most important changes that were taking place in Scotland in the last 50 years. In addition not counting the increasing number of folk refusing to pay the BBC licence:

      Funny old world init!

    146. Dal Riata says:

      @call me dave at 6.00 pm

      Thanks for that information about this Remembrancer dude.

      He has a budget of £5.3million, a staff bill of £500,000 – including a team of six lawyers – and he represents bankers’ interests at the heart of our democracy.

      … “he represents bankers’ interests in the heart of our democracy”…!?!?!

      Just unbelievable. But perhaps not!

      The more you learn about the machinations of the British Establishment and Westminster the more you come to realise that “The mother of all democracies” [sic] is a massive lie and is no less corrupt than any other third-world country that the UK looks down upon for being ‘undemocratic’. What a farce.

      The more people that are made aware of this the better.

    147. heedtracker says:

      One more Tuckeresque boost for shadow Scottish secretary Murray, who also leaps on their sneaky GE 2015 was lost to Scots/English nationalist face-off whine.

      Probably Severin says

      “This time around, despite previously holding the smallest majority of any Scottish MP, Murray beat his SNP opponent by about 2,500 votes, helped in part by the discovery that his nationalist opponent had tweeted, under a pseudonym, comparing No voters to Nazi collaborators.”

      I thought the SNP guy only retweeted BBCScotlandshire?

      Bare faced unionist liars boost bare face unionist liars.

      Nice one Graun.

    148. Tubes says:

      I think the thing that hurt Labour they haven’t really considered is the Labour to UKIP voters.

      It seems an odd one, as UKIP are basically the natural home of the “swivel eyed loon” end of the conservatives, but what they did is analogous to what the SNP have done – swept up the votes of the people who the Labour party used to represent but now feel they have no voice. In the key English marginals that Labour lost, the UKIP vote hurt Labour more than the Tories.

      There is a key difference though, the SNP recognize Scotland’s heart and soul is for social justice and offered policies that reflect that, combined with the quest for Scotland to regain her nationhood in a very Scottish, civic and cultural way, is utterly compelling and Labour offer nothing by way of alternative.

      In Scotland they tried all they usually do – a vote for the SNP is a wasted vote (remember largest party?), they’ll let the tories in, they ARE the tartan tories, the are NAZI etc etc SNP BAD SNP BAD and couldn’t understand why it didn’t work.

      The trick UKIP have pulled on deserted former Labour voters (or typically would be labour voters but don’t normally vote) is to mis-represent symptoms and causes of social problems (e.g. employment and housing as immigration issues and not the result of 30+ years of de-industrialisation, social policy, selling off housing stock etc – N.B. all that is highly debatable, but is my take on it) HOWEVER UKIP spoke to these people and ,made them feel someone would stick up for them and recognized the real (relative) marginalization and grievance of the communities who labour haven’t represented for a long time.

      UKIP voters who are tory really all fled home to the mothership, the voters who labour abandoned are less likely to return.

      I don’t believe UKIP represent the interests of their working class vote (in fact the opposite) but that section of the population in England doesn’t have a proper Labour party to speak for them any more, no SNP and however intellectually appealing the greens, the middle class beard and sandle combo is the image they have yet to shed.

      And to anyone in England and Wales, it was obvious the whole time that the tories were going to win the election.

      The main effect of the lab/SNP tactic was to highlight how hopeless labour were, not fear of the SNP per se, just Labour had no response or way of handling it. Although for large parts of that they were still thinking Scotland would be OK as long as murphovision kept pumping out SNP bad.

    149. Joemcg says:

      Way off topic I know but I’m curious about the FAI getting a millions of pounds settlement for the notorious Thierry Henry handball incident. The refs decision is final surely? How many dubious incidents have there been in world football history? Thousands. Very strange.

    150. heedtracker says:

      Look at them. Royal Mail, what we all owned gets flogged on cheap to City by tory boys and threatens universal post service, gets a few hundred CiF’s

      Salmond says “woman” in a sentence in the Commons last night and progressive liberal CiF rages away in its thousands.

      Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    151. Algernon Pondlife says:

      Chic McGregor says (at 12.31

      Likewise, the SNP made a big strategic error in not promising an EU referendum after independence years ago.

      Chic, I would rather hope that SNP promises for government actions and policies after the successful indyref should be meaningless since they would not be in a position to dictate the actions and policies of a government not yet elected. In an ideal world they would cease to exist as a party in the first true Scottish election.

    152. Fred says:

      Looks like rain for Saturday’s “Fest”, King Billy set for a drookin! 🙂

    153. Grouse Beater says:

      Just got blocked by asinine David Torrance Twitter account.

      Doesn’t like being described as vapid, or told he surrenders to gossip and eschews insight.

      As discerned – he’s vain in the extreme, a hack full of cack.

    154. Cymro says:

      Excellent blog !

      As a Welshman, and a Plaid supporter living in Wales, and having read the article this morning – the one sentence in the whole article that really did stand out for me was the final sentence in the 3rd paragraph from the end. I quote

      Milliband’s aides say that, looking back, he blames the Labour defeat on the SNP.. blah, blah, blah (and)
      the party’s wariness to discuss identity or Englishness.

      Englishness ? – So has UK Labour now finally come to the conclusion that it is no longer a British party (as it was in the Indy Ref) but is it now seeking to redefine itself merely in English terms ?

      This use of the word Englishness (and everything connected with it) seems to suggest that something quite fundamental has happened within the ranks of UK Labour in the recent few months.

      Have Labour completely thrown in the towel in Scotland I wonder ?

    155. Tinto Chiel says:

      Robert Louis @ 5.29 pm: spot on. The unexamined life is not worth living, unless you’re Slab. That way madness lies, of course.

      Rev., I don’t know why you’re going on about Stuart McCall’s haircut. Everyone knows he got a new, severe one on Sunday.

      I’ll get my Crombie.

    156. Petra says:

      Angela Merkel says EU might consider a treaty change to keep UK in.

    157. Roland Smith says:

      Bella’s crowd fund is up to 62%. If you have a spare bob or two please consider donating it to a worth cause.

      Like Wings they are an essential element to an independent media in Scotland.

    158. Joemcg says:

      £3 billion for Royal Mail is gonna make a HUGE dent in the £1.5 trillion of course!

    159. DerekM says:

      so this is how its going to be the red tories hiding in the shadows and letting their pals the blue tories swat us in the vote ,well they can do that all they want let see them beat us in the debate every little push makes independence that little step closer.

      Can anybody tell me if inside the SNP party there is someone recording a day to day portrait of our MP`s activities ,lol its not that i dont trust them,it would be great to get a kind of idea of just what the job entailed ,well we cant be good bosses if we dont know what kind of conditions our employees have to work in, and i am sure i dont speak for myself in saying that i am interested to learn more.

      If there is please let us see it and dont forget we are here,come on SNP lets take the show on the internet and show us what it is to be an MP lol you have our attention
      go on show Scotland why we should get rid of the title MP for good.

    160. ArtyHetty says:

      O/T sort of

      That tory woman, who A Salmond rebuked, I am sure has been subject to a lot worse in her time, all women have. I have to say though Alex perhaps should avoid making gender based comments, mind you the so called commons seems to thrive on insult and stupid idiotic public school boy banter, ( while making serious comment on serious issues affecting peoples lives) it’s quite common really in the real sense of the word.

      Oh and Mrs Merkel appearing to change the rules re EU membership? I smell s***e.

    161. galamcennalath says:

      Al-Stuart says:
      “SNP proposing an amendment …..
      That The Smith Commission Be Progressed In Full
      The result was 60 FOR and 318 AGAINST the Smith Commission.

      ….. and the Daily Record will be up in arms tomorrow about the betrayal!

      Like f**k they will!

    162. Albaman says:

      Looks like the Daily Record’s sales are still on a downward spiral, aw shame!!!!!!!.
      the Dundee Courier ought to be following, it’s anti S.N.P. stance is as obvious as the Records one is.

    163. DerekM says:

      @ Algernon Pondlife @ Chic McGregor

      Dont underestimate them guys they had a mountain to climb and nearly did it ,yes they made mistakes but all of it was untested ,they had to see where the political landscape lay and they opened the door and asked “well what do you lot think”i think they were a bit taken aback at first by the response they got back ,but instead of cracking they were empowered.

      Next time will be the real thing and the onions know it thats why they are so scared

      An old SNP member once told me the lesson they learned in 79 was to beat the system you have to be inside the system or all you do is stand outside kicking lumps out of it and getting nowhere,he was a wise old fella a bookies nightmare lol

    164. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The next chance to tell the Tories what they can do with their austerity is June 20th, George Square, the STUC ‘Scotland United Against Austerity’ rally. Approx 12 – 4pm. Static rally. (Usual format: speeches, music, family entertainment etc.)

      The SSP will be there in numbers, and we’ve already started getting organised for it. Looks like it will be a big one – early guesstimates (based on direct communication with STUC) suggests upward of 10k.

      I assume Ronnie, CazM, Bob, and all the regulars already know about this and are planning a stall. Would I be right in that assumption? If so, can I suggest that we all get together at some point for a post-rally swally?

      An appeal to all ye lurkers – make yersels known! The time has come to show these Tories, of red and blue variety, that Scotland didn’t put 56 anti-austerity MPs into the belly of the beast just for a laugh.

    165. ArtyHetty says:

      Ok taking my words back. Posts on fb about A Salmond calling a woman a woman. If I say, ‘come on man’ when debating, same sort of thing, it’s actually not derogatory, ( see tory) but the way that non toffs speak when someone tries to put them down, at least North of the border, oh dear looks like they are a tad oversensitive and only used to their own sexist banter, you can’t win em all. No doubt msm will move on quickly, not!

    166. Chic McGregor says:

      While it is true that the SNP is likely to split, and possibly quite quickly, along domestic polity lines after independence, between an indyref Yes vote and actual independence, they would still be the party of government. Although they might invite others on board, they would still lead any constitutional negotiations, including any concurrently running EU negotiations and naturally, their manifesto pledges would still be to the fore and bear upon those negotiations.

      They would also doubtless serve as the government, perhaps of a grand coalition, for that first administration. It is inconceivable that the already frenetic task of bedding in and setting up an entire new machinery of governance would be rendered into chaos by having an early general election.

      Provided they had a mandate by having included a timetable for a post independence EU referendum in their manifesto (say 4 years after the commencement of Scottish membership) then they could both set and implement that timetable.

      However, in the event of a longer timetable or for some pressing reason a very quick general election a subsequent new party of government, if it occurred before the due date, could rescind it, of course, in theory, provided they had a mandate for that intention in their manifesto.(Making their electoral success very unlikely).

      Just like any future government could offer an exit referendum or, indeed, apply to rejoin.

      But, in terms of the negotiations involved, they would have had to have taken place with the presumption that such a referendum was going to happen.

    167. bookie from hell says:

      Scotland best Educated country in Europe

      Kezia must think we’re bottom of league,every week #fmqs

    168. asklair says:

      More on Daily Record sales and jobs going

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Still going strong…26,489

      WOS Twitter feed showing tweet from BBC Scotland 2015, saying they invited the OO to take part in programme tonight, but they declined.

    170. Petra says: are running the following petition:

      ‘Westminster: Exempt Scottish Emergency Services From VAT’

      Could someone tell me how to adapt this to a proper ‘click on to open’ site? (there’s a proper name for this I’m sure!)

      It looks as though they require more support.

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair paterson says: 4 June, 2015 at 5:47 pm:

      “I was looking forward to seeing and hearing the S.N.P. 2 questions to the P.M. But I am still non the wiser nothing on the radio or the tv it is almost as if we do not exist of course they wish wish we didn’t”

      Here you go, Blair : –

      That link will get you live TV from the UK Parliament but also remember that TV channel 131 is the BBC Parliament channel

    172. Sinky says:

      galamcennalath says:
      4 June, 2015 at 8:52 pm

      Al-Stuart says:
      That The Smith Commission Be Progressed In Full

      This is the amendment that Labour refused to support to-day.

      Please remind them of The Vow / near Federal status bribe.

      PS who is representing the third force in UK politics on Question Time to-night?

    173. Dr Jim says:

      @Chick McGregor

      If I thought for one Nano Second the SNP would even consider splitting after a Yes vote I would be the first to vote NO
      and I’m a member
      The very thought of leaving Scotland to the mercy of total and complete amateur Numpties like the SSP or the Greens or God help us the all new and improved Idjits that would be the Labour Party fills me with dread

      I’m afraid if the future of Scotland were to be consigned to far left Badge wearers Committee members and Unions then I would be campaigning with anybody who would have me to remain a slave of the Union
      and I really really hate the Union

      The only reason Scotland has found it’s bottle is the SNP and the only reason Scotland has advanced is the SNP

      You’ve done your job served your purpose now off you go
      If that’s the future people look forward to then Scotland does not deserve the SNP and if I thought that sentiment was shared I’ll start campaigning to stay in this hell of a Union and vote Conservative ( which i’ve never done)

    174. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood 9.14 am sayin nuttin,bit ah ken ah couple of Mannies fae Dundee area hiv their calendars marked up lol.

    175. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dal Riata says: 4 June, 2015 at 6:48 pm:

      ” … The more you learn about the machinations of the British Establishment and Westminster the more you come to realise that “The mother of all democracies” [sic] is a massive lie … “

      So now do you believe what I’ve been harping on about since I began to comment on this forum?

      There has been an elite, “Establishment”, ruling, or attempting to rule all Britain, in South Britain for at least as long as we have recorded history, (and that recorded history began with the Romans in 54BC).

    176. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 4 June, 2015 at 7:28 pm:

      “Salmond says “woman” in a sentence in the Commons last night and progressive liberal CiF rages away in its thousands”.

      Just as well it wasn’t me making the remark – then they really would have had something to complain about.

      Might I suggest to Mr Salmond that he apologises to the, (Err!), woman but in his apology refers to her as, That Man,?

    177. G4jeepers says:

      @Ian B,

      Will GCC be providing a range of seats, refreshments and closing off the streets for that one?

    178. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      I see the Liar Dems on Lib Dem Pravda (LibDemVoice) are getting worked up about language and supposed sexism over something Salmond said.

      Someone should gently remind these hypocrites that the party of Paddy Pantsdown hasn’t got a leg to stand on when it comes to strong language and that the party of Lord Rennard attempting to lecture others on sexism is just a sick joke.

    179. @Petra
      What happens to VAT raised in Scotland?
      Do we get it all back?
      Is it tied into the Barnett Formula/Block Grant ?
      If we get it back do we get what we raise or a percentage of what is raised in UK?

      Or does Westminster keep it all?

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 4 June, 2015 at 9:57 pm:

      “If I thought for one Nano Second the SNP would even consider splitting after a Yes vote I would be the first to vote NO”

      I’m with you on that, Dr Jim, but for quite a different reason. I see no need for the SNP to disband. They are after all the Scottish NATIONAL Party.

      That is the Party of the Scottish Nation and, after independence is gained, they will continue to be the party of the Scottish Nation. What I do see are certain factions within the party move off left and right if they feel that the party of the nation doesn’t represent their aspirations for the nation.

      So just a wee reminder that the Establishment’s propaganda that they are the Nationalist Party hasn’t fooled everyone.

    181. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      I see the yellow tories on Lib Dem Pravda (LibDemVoice) are getting worked up about language and supposed sexism over something Salmond said.

      Someone should gently remind these hypocrites that the party of Paddy Pantsdown hasn’t got a leg to stand on when it comes to objecting to strong language and that the same party of Lord Rennard attempting to lecture others on sexism is just a sick joke.

    182. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @G4jeepers (10.28) –

      🙂 Stranger things have happened.

      @Dr Jim (9.57) –

      I’m not sure why you keep having a go at the SSP and Greens – if you could provide a coherent argument as to why you hold them in such disdain, it might be of interest to some. In any event, even though I’m one of the ‘total and complete amateur Numpties’ you referred to, even I can hazard a guess that you won’t be attending the STUC rally on June 20th, eh? Pity.

    183. R-type Grunt says:

      @ Dr Jim,

      So, party before country. Where have I heard that before?

      Disgraceful. That’s all.

    184. Ellie Robot says:

      @Dr Jim – so roughly speaking, if you don’t get your dictatorship, you’ll flip sides to a dictatorship?

      Gaun yersel’…

    185. Sinky says:

      How do we protest about the London centric BBC Question Time’s continual refusal to accept the new House of Commons arithmetic, which they always used in the past to ignore the SNP, whereby the SNP are now the third force in UK politics?

    186. Chic McGregor says:

      Dr Jim

      I am not advocating a quick or any replacement of the SNP after independence but merely responding to the suggestion that that might happen and the possible consequences.

      Nor am I suggesting that there would be no continuing party of that name or that those who have served us well in it should find themselves out of office.

      However, given, and indeed necessarily so, the politically disparate nature of its current contingent, it is not unreasonable to suppose, in the fullness of time, that a fracturing of some kind would occur.

      I envisage that this would most likely take place in a controlled fashion over a number of years.

      I have little doubt that a party of that name will continue but new parties with different names and position on the political spectrum are likely to spring from it.

      Whether I remain a supporter of the Scottish National Party or not, If I am still alive then, will rather depend upon which part of the political spectrum it resides.

      At that point, I will be very surprised if there are not existing elected representatives of the current SNP serving in those new parties.

      I do not believe this is a particularly surprising or radical notion but merely a consequence of democracy in action.

    187. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 9.57

      Me too.Too many people too keen to bin the SNP.

      As you say anything we have now got as an ambition and a possibility is because of the SNP and the wilderness years of brave and determined battle to get us to this point
      The bandwagon is a very beguiling vehicle

    188. Chic McGregor says:

      I should add, I do NOT envisage many current members of SLAB being considered of sufficient standard to have a future in a democratic Scotland.

      There are those in the Greens and Left who have the necessary capability but just require a crash course in pragmatics.

    189. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ChicMcG (11.11) –


    190. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ellie Robot at 11.07

      The majority of people vote for a particular party and that’s a dictatorship?
      Gaun yersel indeed.

    191. crazycat says:

      @ Iain Gray’s Subway Lament

      Although I don’t have a television, I’m sure I saw a clip from a politics programme (can’t remember which one) where Anna Soubry was physically recoiling from having to sit next to Alex Salmond on the programme’s sofa. It was mentioned here at the time. What she said was demented rubbish, too.

      So, although there are plenty of occasions when addressing someone that way could be objectionable, in this case there is a history (perhaps) and she got what she deserved.

    192. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ronnie anderson (10.02) –

      Receiving you loud and clear Broadsword. Your message has been decoded and understood.

      ‘…if ah dinna see ye through the week ah’ll see ye through the windae…’ 😉

    193. pitchfork says:

      This part is my favourite bit:

      “The only reason got through 10 planning meetings was because we were all distracted, looking for a way to punch through on the SNP,”

      It just sneaked through the 10 meeting unnoticed then?

      Armando Iannucci couldn’t write better scripts for these guys.

    194. Dr Jim says:

      Where did I mention dictatorship where did I mention party before country
      Plus I’m not having a go at anybody who first has to prove they would be suitable candidates to vote for and at the moment in these aforementioned parties there is no one I have seen that would attract a vote

      And if the SNP are seen as dictators then what does that say about people who would first use them then abandon them once they had achieved Independence for them

      That’s certainly not any society I would want to be a part of (you were useful now sod off) Isn’t gratitude a wonderful and warm thing
      It’s no wonder Westminster keeps winning with this kind of fickle attitude ( Solidarity brothers Eh)

      But I’ll just take my opinion for that’s all it is and go on strike
      My politics in this are neither left or right they are about efficiency of Governance but I do see a lot of this idea of when we get Independence we’ll remove the SNP and replace them with something else which is and will be totally unproven and my country is more important than the people in it because we all come and go but our country remains

    195. heedtracker says:

      Bedtime lies anyone and can anyone else hear tory boy sphincter tightening?

      Not guilty in a Scottish court nae doubt.

      Human bodies have over 20 sphincters apparently.

      Which one is Fluffy losing control of?

    196. Ellie Robot says:

      But…simply dismissing the Greens and SSP as also-rans who aren’t worthy because they just aren’t, isn’t healthy. I’m a Green with a lot of time for what the SNP are doing/have done. But they aren’t perfect, and need other voices to balance the bigger picture.

      If you think (as I read it) that an SNP monopoly is in any way a good idea, then good luck with that. It does no good for the improvement in Scottish politics in the last few years – that which comes from an engaged electorate who better understand what’s being discussed.

      I don’t think majority = dictatorship, that’s simply not the case. But I do think that just writing off parties who are natural allies pushes us in that direction.

    197. Dal Riata says:

      The Guardian has become nothing more than an up its own arse tabloid rag. It still tries to carry the air of, “We’re a broadsheet, don’t you know. We have a serious message. People read us for what we’ve got to say.” Hah, right ye are!

      It’s demise, while leaning increasingly to the right of the political spectrum, began when Rusbridger took over the editorship. He has now taken his leave to chair the Scott Trust (!) and to be the next Principal of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford, a constituent college of Oxford University (!) to be replaced by Katharine Viner.

      Whether the new editor will bring out change is to be seen, meanwhile, it has the Three Amigos, Michael White, Severin Carrell (though he hasn’t appeared for some time, probably still in mourning for Labour) and Steve Bell to carry on and oversee the cause of championing anti-Scottish everything.

      Today’s anti-Scottish everything article is the latest in their laughable attempts to smear the SNP and its MPs. This time it’s their thousandth ‘Alex Salmond accused…’ headlined article with Salmond being vilified for calling a horrible Tory woman MP a… wait for it… “woman”. Yes, the fucking audacity of the man! Bloody misogynistic sleazy Jock!

      And *of course* the article is open for comments BTL where the hateful, the hypocrites, the Unionists and the trolls descend to vent their spleen in their thousands… Job done by the Guardian: smear (doesn’t matter if it’s true or not) the SNP, smear Alex Salmond, keep up the negative propaganda against Scotland, get thousands of clicks for the advertisers, and, hey presto… Result!

      The entire London-based media: a stinking, effluent-filled sewer of right-wing British Establishment propaganda. A pox on all their houses.

    198. Paula Rose says:

      @ heedtracker – the gastrick?

    199. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill (11.21)

      ‘The bandwagon is a very beguiling vehicle.’

      Seeing as you’ve chosen to hitch your wagon to Dr Jim’s in a specific context, would you please clarify what you mean by that?

    200. heedtracker says:

      Paula Rose says:
      5 June, 2015 at 12:04 am
      @ heedtracker – the gastrick?

      No. Poor Fluffy. He’ll be really popular in the slammer, unless Lord judge whatever steps up with this no perjury if it doesn’t affect the result con.

    201. Dr Jim says:

      @Ellie Robot

      I’m only dismissing those who would dismiss the SNP for being as you say imperfect and you’re right to say that but what I do disagree with is
      There are people talking as if the SNP are only a means to an end before they even get the chance to Govern an Independent Scotland should we be fortunate enough to secure one

      I have posted leaflets through doors for over 40 years for the SNP and maybe given the chance it would make me very proud to see the party I have worked for get the chance to govern the country they have fought for and given up their lives for

      Perhaps at times I come across as fervent and I suppose it’s because I am
      Offence certainly isn’t meant it’s only because I’ve been waiting a very long time for this and I see it almost here and the thought of it slipping away through fracturing is terrifying

      I’m not a horrible person I promise you just anxious and a little elderly which gives me less time to wait and I completely understand folk who may not be regular SNP voters but I can assure you and them this is the best team we’ve had in years and what’s even better they’re the nicest friendly bunch you could meet

      See that’s me getting proud again, I’ll shut up and get off tae baw baws noo

    202. Paula Rose says:

      Darlings – can we please be civil, my nieces are watching.

    203. Paula Rose says:

      In an independent Scotland there will always be a party of the centre – is that not the SNP’s role?

    204. Thepnr says:

      As always, the electorate will decide the make up of the politicians of Scotland.

    205. Paula Rose says:

      @ Thepnr – Pink nail varnish, red lippie and nude foundation!

    206. Dr Jim says:

      Just before I go off tae baw baws
      Perhaps one last thought for those who would attack the idea that to stick with the SNP may in some way be wrong in some way
      Consider the position for a moment where someone might say I’ll vote for you till I get what I want and then supplant you at the first opportunity
      And then consider that the response from that person may be
      Why would I trust that person in the future and why would I show them any future consideration as to the governance of my country
      For myself I vote what I believe if others consider their vote should be used another way it’s a matter for them
      but should I not accept Parties I do not trust for the previous reasons it’s not for them to then criticise me if I return the favour by voting alternatively

      BTW Dictatorship actually does work rather well ask the English Conservatives or Labour we’ve been living under one for 300 years and the English just love it

      I’m not of course advocating it

    207. G. Campbell says:


      House of Commons Hansard Debates for 05 Feb 2014

      Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Ruane, you are an incorrigible delinquent at times. Behave yourself man.

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting thread in the Herald, second thread down in article “Nationalist MSP accused over Smith home rule reforms letter”.

      Nothing to do with the article, if the thread’s still there when you look rather than being completely deleted, it seems a few are revolting against the selective moderation that’s taking place in the herald. oops.

    209. K1 says:

      Why is this the top story on the Herald’s online front page?

      This is the front page for today 5th June:

      This is an ‘old’ story from before the 7th May. Check out the couple of btl comments as they begin to realise somethin’s up. Weird.

    210. Capella says:

      @K1 Maybe so shocked by death of Operation Rubicon that they’re pretending the election hasn’t happened yet?

    211. Stoker says:

      Morag wrote:
      “I felt a bit sorry for Miliband the next morning.”

      In my best John McEnroe impression – YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS.
      But i know what you mean, my heart bled for him (rolls eyes).
      I was nearly hospitalised due to non-stop laughter.

    212. Ken500 says:

      The SNP were winners. UKIP were losers. Labour went with the losers. The perceived threat was from the losers. The (uneducated) English working class decide the UK election. The sooner Scotland is Independent the better.£10Billion a year better off.Westminster is taking £10Billion a year from Scotland.with policies not supported in Scotland. Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud.

      Total taxes raised in Scotland £54Billion. Total spent in Scotland £54Billion. Scotland could raise £10Billion more. Cut Trident/illegal wars, a tax on loss leading drink, Debt repayments on money Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. Develop Oil sector in the West and production on the Clyde. Turbines, frigates and liners.

      Total tax revenues raised in the UK £466Billion. Down from £600Billion raised when ConDems
      came to power. Total taxes raised in the rest of the UK £412Billion plus £90Billion borrowed and spent.

      Westminster policies hold Scotland back. Westminster has taken £500Billion from Scotland and wasted it.

    213. Ken500 says:

      Where the Polls analysed wrongly to affect the outcome? The right wing Pollsters manipulating the Polls. Gerrymandering.

    214. Ken500 says:

      Can Scotland tax fizzy drinks?

      Why is Coulson allowed to commit perjury in Scotland?

      When will Tommy Sheridan’s conviction be quoshed and compensation be paid?

    215. Ken500 says:

      Change GCC. The only Council in Scotland to allow Orange Marches every week. A disgrace.

    216. SquareHaggis says:

      Thank fcuk my browser crashes every time I open the Guardian website!
      Saves me the bother of having to even go there.
      Happy daze.

    217. Sinky says:

      The National has interesting advert 38 Degrees from attacking Labour MEP David Martin for backing TIPP provision that would allow large corporations to sue governments if laws dent their profits.

    218. heedtracker says:

      Why is Coulson allowed to commit perjury in Scotland?

      When will Tommy Sheridan’s conviction be quoshed and compensation be paid?

      Sheridan lied under oath during his News of the Screws trial, so went down for three years.

      Coulson on trial said he didn’t lie under oath at same trial as Sheridan’s witness. The judge said he did but it didn’t affect the Sheridan conviction, so not guilty.

      You can lie under oath in a Scottish court. Bet noone without an LLB knew that a week ago.

      Other UKOK news today, Andy Murray plays the world No.1 Novak Djokovic, in his Men’s semi final at the French Grand Slam Open this afternoon.

      BBC r4 today show sports report doesn’t deign to even mention Murray or his match. Murray is British but from Dunblane, Scotland.

      Welcome to another day in teamGB

      Good luck Andy!

    219. Sinky says:

      Sorry should read TTIP

    220. Legerwood says:

      Today’s Herald has a cracking photo of Kezia Dugdale.

      Maybe someone more savvy than I am could archive it. It really is a must see.

    221. Ken500 says:

      Coulson did lie under oath at Sheridan trial. Said he had no knowledge of phone hacking, a lie. It did affect the Sheridan trial. If the truth about phone hacking was known, Tommy Sheridan would have been found not guilty. Why was £5million of Scottish taxpayers money spent on a NoW show trial? Coulson/Murdoch should be in jail for bribing public officials.

    222. heedtracker says:

      Worth a coffee time look.

      “Other avenues of redress?

      Police Scotland are investigating if election offences were committed, and a separate prosecution could follow either from those inquiries or from a finding by the election court, on trial of the petition, that Carmichael was guilty of corrupt or illegal practices. Such a finding would lead also to voiding of the election for Orkney and Shetland, and a bar on Carmichael standing again for the seat.

      The length of his disqualification from holding political office would vary from 3 years (if found guilty of the illegal practice in s106) or 5 years (if found guilty of the corrupt practice in s115). By declining to resign, Carmichael has chosen to gamble on his chances of defending the petition. Resigning before the petition commenced would have preserved his opportunity to offer himself afresh to the electors in a by-election in the seat.”

    223. terry says:

      I have never screamed and swore at the radio until right now. Edwina Currie on the phone in on radio scotland – I despair that anybody would give this elitist moron air space. The Tories are goading us – and I ask myself why?

    224. call me dave says:

      Gosh! Beattie and Edwina on ‘Your call’ and I only managed 2 minutes. “You’ve had your election (referendum) now move on”

      Couldn’t they get anyone else from ‘Darn South’ to patronise us?

      I use ‘gosh’ instead of a few other expletives I could have chosen. (I try very hard to avoid that option) 🙂

    225. call me dave says:



    226. Ken500 says:

      What company can sue a government and win? Government makes the rules. Gives the licence.

    227. Arabs for Independence says:

      Edwina on Radio Scotland – I defy anyone not to kick their radio around the house listening to that dreadful former politician.

    228. john king says:

      BBC Scotland website
      “Alex Salmond REBUKED” for his woman remark”
      Rebuked! by whom? the speaker? the leader of the party, the whip?
      No he was rebuked by none other than Anna soubry, yet another puff piece by pathetic Quay!

    229. Lanarkist says:

      Edwina, like Nanny McPhee, on Radio to sort us all out.

      If we don’t need her or want her she is here, when we need her she has to go!

      Outrageous that BBC Scot quote expenditure and income without any analysis.

      Edwina sticks the boot in to anyone who doesn’t follow neo-con arguments.

      Comparison with UK financial situation might aid discussion!

    230. Fiona says:

      Why are they sending has-been’s to talk here?

    231. Famous15 says:

      Edwina Curry was loved by someone somewhere. She is a major reason for the increased support for independence.

      Regarding Stu’s wonderful article,should we really be giving guidance to our opponents?Perhaps Stu is confident that they are so self deluded that they will never recognise the reality of their plight.

    232. Grouse Beater says:

      Week One – Unionists MPs and our wonderful analytical press report on SNP advent at Westminster:

      SNP ridiculed for pushing Skinner off his seat – a lie.
      SNP ridiculed for applauding – not permitted – a lie.
      Salmond ridiculed for insulting memory of Kennedy – a lie.
      Racist MP Soubry goads Salmond – Salmond insults – a lie.

      And those bastards said ‘we love you, stay with us’.

    233. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Edwina the Saucy Wind-Up Merchant, with her colourful past and cast of debauched chums.

      Ain’t easy, but please try not to rise to it folks – it’s blatant and tawdry and on-par with what we’ve come to expect. This is uber-trolling by PQ, and it speaks volumes.

    234. tubes says:

      Under TTIP the government doesn’t and an independent arbitration decides if government policy is hurting profit. If it iis, the government has to compensate the company.

      That’s the TTIP all the main parties want to push through.

    235. call me dave says:


      FGS! Switch her off immediately. Look after your blood pressure.


      I like that.
      Edwina, like Nanny McPhee, on Radio to sort us all out.

      If we don’t need her or want her she is here, when we need her she has to go!

    236. heraldnomore says:

      Keep it up BBC and the blue tories – just what we need as we look towards the 2016 election campaign – another lecture on the English way of doing things.

      What an appalling woman. Switch over to Rocksport Radio. Calm.

    237. Eckle Fechan says:

      A bit late with this post but yest was a shitter. Anyway..

      Of the contenders standing, I really don’t believe that the British Labour Party will vote for a woman as their leader.

      Harriet must know this and perhaps feels like, what’s the point?

      That leaves Andy to have a go, like a kid with a pea shooter trying to take on the whole boarding school gang. They’ll have his kecks inside out and his dinner money confiscated and spent before evensong.

      And his NHS-past will be used to full extent to harangue him in the Chamber.

    238. Luigi says:

      “Labour still don’t seem to have learned since the Gillian Duffy incident.”

      Precisely. By disowning huge numbers of their own English support base as bigots, racists and “white van” drivers, and Scottish YES voters as deluded separatists or NAZIs, Labour effectively sealed their fate last month.

      The tories cleverly wooed their UKIP defectors back to the fold (promising an EU referendum), whilst Labour made no real effort to win back defectors in England, despite the early warning signs that they were leaking votes to UKIP. In Scotland, they made some initial effort that ended up in total confusion (with JM trying first going a wee bit patriotic/anti-union, then pro-union for tactical votes when he eventually realised how serious the situation was). They only have themselves to blame.

    239. Macart says:

      Hmmm Edwina apparently doesn’t understand, neither she nor any other establishment mouthpiece can prevent the Scottish electorate holding as many referendums as we feel like.

      Mind you Edwina never was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

    240. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian Brotherhood: Edwina the Saucy Wind-Up Merchant, with her colourful past and cast of debauched chums.

      The astonishment is not only that the BBC should invite a discredited MP to pontificate to a nation, to goad the natives, but that they should manipulate Salmond’s rebuke to Soubry as greater news value than the content of the speech he was making.

      That’s the media shaping and engineering opinion in the unionist favour yet again. That’s what vacuous hacks such as Torrance don’t understand they do every day.

    241. Dr Ew says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Completely agree “the media is shaping and engineering opinion in the unionist favour yet again.” If only that’s all it was but I think most of us know it goes much, much deeper than that: The purpose is manufacturing consent for the structural abuse of power to exploit people and environment, commit atrocities and still demand our acclamation, as described by Chomsky.

      I honestly believe they are offended not so much by the notion of Scottish independence per se, more by alarm at a previously supine population questioning their authority and acting against their will.

      That’s their real concern and the main reason sites like Wings are so dangerous.

    242. Training Day says:


      Yes, it’s beyond doubt that the Tories are actively goading us, from the manufactured guff that GB details above, to the appointments in Mundell’s office, to the cuts announced yesterday.

      The question is are they doing this cause that’s what they do – instinctive Jock bashing and imperialism – or do they have a cunning plan to rile us to the point of departure?

      Bit of both maybe.

    243. Jet Jockey says:

      Remember the thick-head Edwina on a tv show didn’t know where Venezuela was in South America, my 14 year old knew, yes she is a real numpty and as thick as mince.

    244. Capella says:

      Is anyone else having problems with Wings site not loading? Same with the Craig Murray site.
      Just wondering.

    245. Ken500 says:

      When has a company sued a government? The Government makes the rules. If a gov breaks it’s own rules? The Trade Treaty does the opposite. It prevents (US) multinationals and governments from using rules to discriminate and prevent free, equal trade. (US) Gov/multinationals use patents and tarriffs/barriers to protect (US) multinationals all over the world. Rather than start a trade war, the EU is negotiating a free trade agreement. Ie EU companies will be able to trade in the US. Scottish companies will have access to a large Market. A Scottish diasporia. E.g US doesn’t accept Scottish beef imports.

    246. Cadogan Enright says:

      Here is my take from an Irish point of view on the elections in an article I wrote for my local paper published a few weeks ago.

      website or

      and Facebook

      (I was actually campaigning there for nearly 4 weeks)

    247. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Is Anna Soubrey not a “woman”. I’m getting confused.

    248. Ken500 says:

      As long as the majority voters in Scotland vote SNP (they do). The SNP will protect Scotland. The BBC is discredited. The majority in Scotland have no faith in the BBC.

      In 5 years the demographics will change. There is a new generation born every minute. Scotland will vote for Independence.

    249. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Ew: They are offended not so much by the notion of Scottish independence per se, more by alarm at a previously supine population questioning their authority and acting against their will.

      I agree in toto.

      It’s a fear of losing control, diminishing their power base. I get harangued regularly by the elite circles I move among. Even when they make stupid remarks easily brushed aside – “Scotland is too small to survive” (and how does New Zealand and Finland manage?) they get angrier if contradicted.

      I end up accusing them of demonstrating how a closed mind doesn’t work when on a level crossing ignoring the warning cries of an oncoming train.

    250. Scots Renewables says:

      I see the Daily Record is ‘restructuring’

      Sorry for the people who will lose their jobs, but GIRFUY vowmakers!

    251. starlaw says:

      yes the tories are goading us, in their minds its a form of subjugation, they cant help it, public schools and all that, same as the clowns who burned £50 pound notes in front of the homeless. Oh wait! it was the self same clowns

    252. Grouse Beater says:

      Dave McEwan Hill: Is Anna Soubrey not a “woman”. I’m getting confused.

      Most certainly a woman who enjoys boasting to all she meets that she is a person who ‘always speaks her mind.’ (Actually the hallmark of someone insecure.)

      It has yet to occur to her, her mind is full of fears.

    253. Grouyse Beater says:

      For those over 60 who follow Wings:

      For those interested in Greece’s resistance to totalitarian. Contributions welcomed to some good posts in answer to essay. policies:

    254. The Rough Bounds. says:

      I note that the wee wee German wifie (the second apparently, according to some) has knighted her grandson ‘Enry otherwise known as ‘Arry. Surprise, surprise.

      Radio Scotland this morning: John Beattie and Edwina (dahhling) Currie. A match made in Heaven. The radio just survived.

      BBC Scotland think tank: ‘Which politician can we interview that the people admire and respect? Let’s get Malcolm Rifkind. Everybody loves him, don’t they?’.

      Crikey! I’m living in a nightmare.

    255. Alex Waugh says:

      Ken500 says:

      5 June, 2015 at 10:47 am

      “When has a company sued a government? The Government makes the rules”

      Lots of times Ken – Malaysia, Canada, South Africa, Australia and the worst thing is they often won – they bloody won!
      It is naïve in the extreme to believe that governments control corporations. The real power lies with multi-national corporatism and national government is usually just its pawn.

    256. tubes says:

      As a free trade agreement, TTIP puts business interests and the trade agreement as paramount over the elected government of the day and obliges EU members to have US regulations. In theory it’ll benefit trade in reality its a move by financial interests to curtail the power of democracy and elected governments to harm their interest. The assumption is that by threatening to pull out money that no government will stand up to it. TTIP is the worst idea and if anyone is under the iillusion that Scotland will benefit more by trading with the us than the us will by trading with Scotland under TTIP they need their head checked. Free market is power and the us has more power than us our protection comes from government.

    257. Grouse Beater says:

      Rough Bounds: The radio just survived.


    258. The Rough Bounds. says:

      @Grousebeater. 11.26am. On the elderly. That’s one of the most beautiful articles or posts that I have read in a long time.

      My mother was a life long Scottish patriot. She died in 2007 aged 100. She lived long enough to see an SNP Government. A happy lady.

      I am now 70 (I can’t believe it) and was absolutely gutted by that referendum result. I despised my fellow pensioners who voted No, and began to despair of ever seeing my country free. But now, after that election in May, 56 SNP MPs goes a long way to ease the bitterness. I yet may see the day dawn on a liberated Scotland and look forward with hope to hugging my sons and my grandchildren on that day.

    259. Hobbit says:

      @grousebeater – 1054
      Speaking to New Zealand friends, the country manages fine, and mostly lives within its means – partly because successive governments, left and right, had the wit to pay down government debt *before* the Global Financial Crisis.

      As for writing off Greek debt – agreed, but don’t expect anyone to lend them anything in future!

    260. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood 12.28 Its against the moderation rules (on scot2scot) to post links such as yours,but hey ho, I,ve posted & asked people to share on all social media sites,GCC councillors have to be named & shamed for letting Religious Tension Flourish.

      Here is the bird that never flew

      Here is the tree that never grew

      Here is the bell that never rang

      Here is the fish that never swam.

      Glasgow wont Flourish with those Councillors in Office.

    261. Bob Mack says:

      Alex gives Soubrey a mild rebuke——-headline news
      Tory maiden speech states (humourously ) Cromwell had right idea in conquering Scotland and sending natives to colonies—nothing.
      What the hell is going on

    262. @Ken500
      Do you know if the NHS is ring fenced from being privatised in the TTIP treaty?

      I read somewhere if public ownership is below a certain % then the Gov have no right to block privatisation of the rest of it.

      Every time we privatise or outsourse a part of NHS we get closer to the % cut off point.

      As far as I have read England NHS is already nearly past that point.

      I find it strange that TTIP is not discussed more in either Holyrood or Westminster.

    263. Kenny Campbell says:

      Labour don’t do listening, it was same in 2007 and 2011…. Lots of strategic discussion to be held but in the event reality did not come to their minds, what occurred was a aberation. This third time in GE in 2015 appears to be getting the same treatment.

      As was eloquently said. They are trying to out Tory the Tories and they will never win unless the Tories re-elect a dumbo as leader(possible) and Labour elect a potential PM.

    264. Grouse Beater says:

      The Rough Bounds:
      Grousebeater -(11.26am) – On the elderly. That’s one of the most beautiful articles or posts that I have read in a long time.

      No one here knows the author – but the author knows he will reach that stage in life to read it again, and weep.

      Thank you for your kind remark. Pass the essay to others if you feel it helps them.

    265. Grouse Beater says:

      Writing off Greek debt – agreed, but don’t expect anyone to lend them anything in future!

      That all depends on what the Greeks have to sell and trade.

      They warned us of that when Salmond said, no pound, no share of UK debt!

    266. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ellie Robot says: 4 June, 2015 at 11:54 pm:

      “But…simply dismissing the Greens and SSP as also-rans who aren’t worthy because they just aren’t, isn’t healthy.”

      I have a lot of time for both the SSP and Greens but I think you are missing the point, Ellie.

      That point being they do not yet have leaders of statesman/stateswoman stature. Close, Yes but not quite there yet. Furthermore, in both cases, the whole point of the SNP is sometimes being missed by both the Greens and the SSP.

      That point is the SNP’s first objective is as a broad Brush party to obtain independence for Scotland so as to then have Scotland governed as a normal country. Only after that goal has been achieved will some members then veer away to such as the Greens and SSP.

      I don’t think I’ve ever spoken with an SNP member who doesn’t want Scotland to have several strong political parties spread across the whole political spectrum and many would veer left or right after independence – the operative thing is After independence.

      Believe me I’ve met all sorts in the SNP from right across the political spectrum and most have stuck with the party even when there were internal left vs right struggles going on. Some, myself included, refused to choose sides during such internal strife. Which is why these struggles settled down to the slightly left of centre party of today.

      The same now applies to the whole Scottish political scene. The present situation is that the majority of Scots seem inclined towards an independent Scotland or at least for a damned site more devolved powers than the Westminster establishment is inclined to grant us.

      The whole point now being that it should not be in the power of the Establishment to be granting us power but in us allowing the Establishment to represent us. That should thus be the aim of all Scottish political parties, including the Greens & SSP but also the Scottish Labour, Tory and LibDem parties.

      Either they work together for Scottish independence or they are the enemy of Scotland. First the Scots awoke to the fact that Tories, both Scots & non-Scots were against Scotland’s best interests and now the ranks of the Labour party and LibDems are going down the same path.

      It would be in Scotland’s best interests if all independence supporting parties were to co-operate to reach independence first and then the Scottish political parties can realign across the political spectrum.

      As already pointed out after independence is won the SNP will probably re-align itself and shed members both left and right of whatever place on that political spectrum it decides to place itself. The obvious beneficiaries will be the other Scottish parties who will pick up former SNP members and those members may well include many present sitting Holyrood, Westminster and local council members.

      There will obviously be 59 sitting Westminster members on the dole come independence day and they will be joining those who only recently found themselves with new P45s. Many of them will not be inclined to retire to obscurity so I expect they will be looking for nominations in subsequent Scottish elections and who knows what parties they may choose to align with?

    267. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ronnie anderson 12.15

      you lost half your link – here is the right one

    268. Cadogan Enright says:

      Writing off Greek debt – agreed, but don’t expect anyone to lend them anything in future!

      Iceland dumped their debt, and are now able to commend the best rates on the bond markets

      Greece has a balance of payments surplus – They can do the same.

      The debt belongs to the corrupt establishment – let them keep it

    269. Cadogan Enright says:

      @Robert Peffers 12.51

      you are totally correct – there are many examples of broad coalitions that have won independence for their countries and then evolved into several National parties of disparate hues.

      BUT PLEASE get something organised for the list – lets stop SNP voters accidentally re-electing the likes of Kezia

    270. Hobbit says:

      Grousebeater – if Scotland took no share of rUK debt, and/or walked away from it, it would struggle to be able to borrow anything off anyone in future.

      I think that in practice Scotland would keep the pound if it were independent (what happened to Eck’s idea to use the Euro instead?) but the conditions that use of the pound would come with, might make adopting our own currency the better idea.

    271. Valerie says:

      @Robert Peffers, agree entirely that the SNP, and their support will be happy to see an emergence of other parties, AFTER Independence, and hopefully from the Left, such as ASP and Greens.

      I heard a comment from McNeil or Wishart, who said it was their objective to be out of a job, and go ‘home’, and I found it very committed, and quite poignant. You have to give up a great deal to be an MP, and the 6 that were down there, must at least feel reinvigorated for the job in hand.

    272. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson –

      🙂 Hoots mon.

      It’s just gone over 28,000.

      GCC and the culture-vultures of O/O not liking it one wee toty bit. Way things are going, the next big petition could be one calling for Matheson’s scalp – watch out for him tomorrow in Freedom Square with a big broom, frantically picking up discarded Greggs bags and pleading with the brothers not to swear at tourists who happen to be wearing anything green.

    273. K1 says:

      jock mc x…if you are aboot, all the videos, apart from the Tommy Sheppard one, that you have been linking of maiden speeches have now become ‘private’ and cannot be accessed. I’ve sent many to others who are contacting me, asking if I know why this is the case. Any ideas jock?

      Could others check out whether this is the case for them?

      In light of this, does anyone have any other links that work?


    274. Tinto Chiel says:

      Bob Mack said, “Alex gives Soubrey a mild rebuke——-headline news
      Tory maiden speech states (humourously ) Cromwell had right idea in conquering Scotland and sending natives to colonies—nothing.
      What the hell is going on”

      It’s the Mother of Parliament’s version of democracy, Bob, subtext “Suck it up, Sweaties!”

      Hey, Rev, if we have to have tractors and quizmasters can we no’ have cundy for that most misogynistic of words? As in “Ma pinner’s feel doon a cundie!”

      Or better still, not use it at all: I don’t see it contributing anything to the debates here.

    275. cirsium says:

      @Ken500, 10.47

      If TTP and TTIP were actually about free trade, would all the negotiations be secret and hidden from democratically elected representatives? See the following for a more accurate description

    276. Grouse Beater says:

      Hobbit: if Scotland took no share of rUK debt, and/or walked away from it, it would struggle to be able to borrow anything off anyone in future.

      The notion no one on this planet would loan to Scotland because it refuse debt not its own, is, quite frankly, risible.

      Money is money; everybody’s got to make a living. (Not a quotation from HSBC but could be.)

    277. Alex Waugh says:

      I am struggling to find words adequate to convey my respect and admiration for Lindsay Jarrett. She is an example of courage, determination and valour so far above the likes of media-whores like Hopkins, Soubry and Mone that they should not even be on the same planet as her. THIS is a real woman; this is a valiant human being; this is a mother, partner and friend to be proud of. I salute you Ms Jarrett with every fibre of my being and whatever comes to you I know you will face it with dignity, decency and spirit. You are an inspiration to all of us and I, for one, will think twice about ever feeling sorry for myself and my petty little problems in the future. May you climb high and free for as long as possible.

    278. Tinto Chiel says:

      Cundy not cundie, of course.

      Is Pinner still used in the Dundee area?

    279. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Cardogan Enright Thanks its no the only thing ave lost over the years lol.

    280. Tam Jardine says:

      O/T re the Qatar world cup – in light of the corruption allegations, should the Scottish Government put it’s weight behind UK culture secretary John Whittingdale’s proposal that England host the 2022 world cup – perhaps pushing for Scotland to host a group?

      It may come to nothing but might go some way to reaching out to the ordinary folk of England.

    281. scottieDog says:

      @Grouse Beater
      Exactly, you just have to look at lending to Greece which was never in any shape to repay the debt. Establishments which can create money didn’t give a stuff about that.

      Besides scotland ain’t Greece. To try and claim that Scotland wouldn’t be able to borrow is just laughable.

    282. Fred says:

      Alex Salmond is quite correct, Anna Soubrey is a stupid woman, just as Mundell is a silly auld man. I was disappointed at Carolyn Leckie having a politically correct swipe at Alex over this nonsense. She would far, far better addressing the issue of the cuts that are coming to Scotland’s poor & disabled.

      She won’t be getting my second vote for Holyrood if she carries on like this, despite being a clever “woman”. The Socialists have shot themselves in the foot so often over the years they can no longer walk on water

    283. call me dave says:

      BBC reporting that:

      Ex-Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy died of a “major haemorrhage” linked to alcoholism, his family says

    284. Capella says:

      BBC news saying Charles Kennedy died of a “major haemorrhage” linked to alcoholism.

    285. scottieDog says:

      Oh and Ireland borrows cheaper than the uk BTW.

    286. Capella says:

      @ call me dave
      Perhaps those who were tweeting about the SNP being to blame will now revise their opinion?

    287. Dal Riata says:

      @Grouse Beater at 9:40 am

      What you said is so true I’d like to repeat it, if you don’t mind?

      “Week One – Unionists MPs and our wonderful analytical press report on SNP advent at Westminster:

      SNP ridiculed for pushing Skinner off his seat – a lie.

      SNP ridiculed for applauding – not permitted – a lie.

      Salmond ridiculed for insulting memory of Kennedy – a lie.

      Racist MP Soubry goads Salmond – Salmond insults – a lie.

      And those bastards said ‘we love you, stay with us’.”

    288. Kenny Campbell says:

      The idea that Scotland could not borrow on the markets is utter nonsense. The current market is awash with cash looking for yield. Bond buyers would not give a toss about how pissed off the rUK would be.

      Scotlands balance of trade and being alone in Western Europe in having zero debt would make it very popular with bond buyers.

    289. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Tam Jardine Not on your nellie Tam, not even the world cup of Peever,supporting one corrupt orginization is bad enough.

    290. heedtracker says:

      O/T re the Qatar world cup

      How come the FBI have moved now on FIFA? Putin getting a taste of how the west treat the corrupt. FIFA’s been at it for decades.

      Here in teamGB, while BBC creep show etc goes apeshit at FIFA, tory boys flog off rest of Royal Mail at loss of billions and hardly a squeak from any of them, ligger Neil fluffed the tory boy on his lunchtime Politics Show, Mark Mardell on r4 lunchtime news skipped over another multi billion hard right shyste/fcuk up, for all the usual BBC display on how to lie and misinform on Greece and the EU.

      £1 a stamp, off the beaten track can say goodbye to their post now, City spivs make loadsamoney…

      Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    291. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I just posted this on the ‘Under Rocks And Slime’ page:

      “Looks like I was on the ball with my suggestion on
      4 June at 12:40 am:-

      If he had suffered a massive stroke, a heart attack, a burst stomach ulcer, or similar, that can happen at any age, any depression he felt over events, would have absolutely no bearing on his death.

      Former Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy died of a major haemorrhage linked to alcoholism, his family has said.

      So, nothing to do with how he was feeling about recent events – and nothing to do with the SNP!”

    292. call me dave says:


      Snap again.

      I never comment on certain matters that come up from time to time on the threads. Previous three days are examples.

      Kennedy and all things religious or footie.

      Least said soonest mended, everyone has their song to sing.

      It doesn’t mean I don’t have a view but I get only one vote and that is all I can use.

      I can’t afford to get too fussed healthwise 🙂

    293. Keir Robinson says:

      “Labour lost because it needed to be going into the election with a far bigger lead in order to survive the inevitable UKIP tactical voting” – no, what Labour should have done is offered a referendum on the EU. They could have done this while still stating their intention to campaign on the pro-EU side when the referendum came around. This would have simultaneously drawn the UKIP thorn and made a very positive contrast with Mr Cameron, who leads a Tory party which, as we all know, is split down the middle on the issue of Europe.

    294. john king says:

      Hobbit says @1.05pm
      “I think that in practice Scotland would keep the pound if it were independent (what happened to Eck’s idea to use the Euro instead?) but the conditions that use of the pound would come with, might make adopting our own currency the better idea.”

      I could not disagree more, the money markets would judge Scotland badly if it DID take a share of a debt it had no responsibility for running up, and would question the judgement of a country who took on debt because “it was the decent thing to do”!

    295. john king says:

      the money men are not interested in whether someone feels morally responsable for a debt, their question would be ARE YOU LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE?

    296. Fred says:

      Briam mebbes SNP supporters were sending him over consolation-prize haufs in the Lochaber Bar (if it still exists.) 🙂

    297. Roll_On_2015 says:

      Grouse Beater at 11:12am

      Most certainly a woman who enjoys boasting to all she meets that she is a person who ‘always speaks her mind.’ (Actually the hallmark of someone insecure.)

      Anna Soubry MP. Bumping her Gums.

    298. Will Podmore says:

      Keir Robinson makes a very good point. Labour opposed even having a referendum. They lost. They told us we had no right to a vote, now they turn round and tell us how to vote. They had no right to try to deny us a vote so now they have no right to tell us how to vote in the referendum they fought to deny us.

    299. Chic McGregor says:

      @Alex Waugh
      Agree completely.
      And very well said BTW

    300. handclapping says:

      @Will Podmore
      Its the Fabians. They want Labour to gain power so that they can tell us what to do. Get rid of the Fabians as we got rid of Militant Tendency and you’ll get a people’s Labour Party back.

    301. Stoker says:

      Will all the Unionist scum responsible please step forward and furnish us with your pathetic explanations regarding your previous heinous statements accusing the SNP of CK’ death.

      Or are you far too busy ironing the regalia for tomorrows filthy bigotfest?

      Shame on you GCC. Your time will come and we’ll oust you.
      And that goes for every council entertaining this sort of filth.

      Take your vile hatred and distorted views elsewhere.

      Scotland does not need nor want you.


    302. Will Podmore says:

      Of course, the SNP, just like the Labour Party, wanted to deny us a referendum on the EU. The SNP’s manifesto said, “we will oppose a referendum on membership of the EU.”
      So the SNP told us we had no right to a vote, now they turn round and tell us how to vote. They had no right to try to deny us a vote so now they have no right to tell us how to vote in the referendum they fought to deny us.

    303. handclapping says:

      @Will Podmore
      But then you didn’t vote for the SNP so what does it matter to you?

    304. majestic12 says:


      TTIP is a travesty and a disaster if passed. Basically large corporations will rule the world. Sovereign countries will be sued relentlessly if their laws affect company profits. It will affect agriculture, pharmaceuticals, foofstuffs including GM, mining, employment and labour laws, health provision, environmental issues….and on and on. And yet the EU seems inclined to sign up. Why? What are the lobbyists offering?

      Please write to your MEP and the European Ombudsman. Some minor success has been achieved by delaying ratification of the treaty, not least because of the work of the protest group, Sumofus. Please look them up and sign their petition. Last I heard they were approaching 2 million signatures. This affects all of us in Europe, North America and Australia and New Zealand.

      Our SNP MEP Alyn Smith is on record as not supporting TTIP, at least not unless it is radically overhauled. The apocryphal New World Order may not be so far away after all, folks.

    305. Andrew McLean says:

      Dal Riata says @ 2.17
      But is that what most abusers say to those they abuse? please stay?

    306. heedtracker says:

      What went wrong, part 2. Stella’s a right bonnie quine but still waffles a load of rubbish.

      It’s rancid red Tory Graun hypocrites and liars but someone should ask them out loud, why not go left, shock?

    307. Andy says:

      Labour lost because Ed couldn’t pull off “Happy Warrior”.
      It should start “Blue Steel” and go into “Le Tigre”.

    308. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore gets it wrong – again!
      The SNP … want to deny us a referendum on the EU.

      The SNP deny no one a referendum vote.

      They demand Scotland is not taken out of the EU against the will of the people of Scotland.

    309. Iain says:

      If Labour should survive, and decides to have another go, it should reflect on what a mandate actually means:

      Democracy and mandate

      Do we have an effective, or even viable, democracy?

      True democracy exists where the people have well-articulated mechanisms and opportunities to gather together, collectively expose and refine their opinions and aspirations. Those seeking election by the people should then seek to demonstrate to them, and convince them, how they will strive to bring these requirements into reality through parliamentary and governmental channels The corpus of ideas and demands that they take forward from these discussions can properly be called their mandate, and they must be accountable to the people, and not to some party, for the exercise of that mandate.

      In reality, the UK is not a democracy and parties are largely the enemies of democracy. What happens is that political parties set out (sometimes with the maximum ambiguity!) their ideological stall,qQ describing how they would like to see the world. Then, they try to impose these views on the public at large through elections, at irregular intervals, making greatest use of obfuscation, specious reasoning and generalised blarney. Thus they can too often extract votes from gullible electors – without remotely approaching their requirements (which may not of course be that clearly discernible – how often have we seen an unscrupulous politician garner great popular support for seemingly attractive cuts affecting the “undeserving”, only to find out later that when the detailed effects of these on recognisable groups of people are fully revealed, that support soon evaporates?).

      Mandate in the UK is usually imputed, by those politicians successful at election, from their own interpretation of how far they can stretch the votes they have secured, without any necessary resemblance to the electors’ wishes. Did Blair have a mandate for “academies”? Does Cameron for the rightwing shift currently being rolled out in front of us? Their FPTP system can mean a few votes go a long way!

      We should note too the role of the media and their corporate proprietors both in helping the parties confuse and frighten the public before the vote (descending sometimes to outright lies when the SNP, the Greens or any other group not conforming to the corporate songsheet is involved), and in reinforcing their claims to have a mandate to do whatever they wish after they have assumed the reins of government. Alas, this is true of all the major parties.

      We need a sustained and mature debate, so as to identify ways in which real ideas of how to define and enforce a popular mandate can be articulated into action, and then properly policed.

      During the Scottish referendum, the organisation RIC did sterling (and unprecedented) work in organising local communities to voice their feelings and take control of their future. None of us thought that their work (and that of some others) would lead to such wholesale success in the general election as the complete defenestration of the defunct political arrangements in Scotland. Other areas of the UK should, and must, study this and learn, if the eighteenth-century elitist Westminster model is to be reformed, although instant success as in Scotland should not be expected. No one in Scotland is starry-eyed; we have not somehow uncovered a whole new breed of political animal, and our 56 will have lessons to learn.

      But they know acutely what the people of Scotland require of them – an end to austerity (an economically valueless cloak for rightwing state-busting ideology), an end to Trident (practically of no military value and simply a support for post-imperial UK delusions at the UN and elsewhere) and greater equality throughout our society. They have a mandate.

      Mandate can only be a real concept if the people take it up permanently, remember that politicians are their servants, be very, very afraid of (all) parties, maintain their vigilance and shout like hell to get their own way (despite the deafness of the mainstream media). Social media and new online magazines must have a role to play.

      I wonder, though, if there is not also some possibility of a continuing process of redress against government cruelty and corporatism, through the coming together of a dedicated and widely representative community organisation (set up by an existing think tank?), and the brighter sparks in the legal system. Effectively this would provide judicial review (as well as widespread publicity) on application in those important cases (alas, all too frequent) where government proposals could be shown to be either unworkable in practice, simply partisan or likely to cause extra, rather than less, public expenditure. Put otherwise, the product of malign ideology or sheer political spite.

      An example would be the bedroom tax in Glasgow. Those in the know appreciate that the housing stock in Glasgow is such that few one-bed roomed flats exist. The stated aim of achieving improved use of the housing stock (shared by us all) could not possibly be achieved, and the policy was soon exposed as a cheap, tasteless gimmick, aimed only to cut the budget, cause additional misery and homelessness to the poor, and achieve cheap plaudits for politicians in rightwing media. In a real, vibrant democracy, an alliance of the community and the law should be able to strike down such sour-minded posturing by an undemocratic clique temporarily in charge of government. This would help control abuse of their self-styled mandate until challenged at the next election.

      Democracy can only flourish when the people are in charge, when it is their needs which are being met, and when “we are all in it together”, to quote one sage. Perhaps it is only when communities select their own, local MPs and instruct them directly, sweeping aside for good the old elitist parties, that change will come.

      5 June 2015

    310. Andrew McLean says:

      The Scotsman Post on the cause of Charles Kennedy
      by some fucking excuse of a man.
      “If he had won the election then he wouldn’t have gone on a suicidal drinking binge.
      Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable to blame his death on his election defeat.

      In other words the SNP drove him to suicide.

      I am thinking of declaring myself a stateless person under UNHCR, until such times as the Scottish state is established,as every cell in my body is screaming to get away from these evil evil people!

    311. heedtracker says:–go

      This is nice. Lucy Frazer with z, all new tory girl says transport the Scots to the colonies as slaves, oh Lucy. Its interesting watching the tory boys around her though. Cameron’s got a 13 majority, a majority like the goon show around Lucy. Should be getting interesting for teamGB quite soon.

      At least Lucy with Z wont bayonet the wounded in their Scotland region. What ever happened to the pot bellied balding SLabour delight that came up with that GE 2015 winning slogan:D

    312. Will Podmore says:

      Grouse Beater, are you denying that the SNP’s manifesto said, “we will oppose a referendum on membership of the EU.” ?
      I don’t make up quotes.
      He writes, “They demand Scotland is not taken out of the EU against the will of the people of Scotland.” True, that’s what they want to do if a referendum happens. This doesn’t prove that they didn’t oppose calling a referendum.
      And on the SNP’s proposal, if the 1.6 million people in Northern Ireland voted by a majority of one to stay in the EU, and everybody in Britain voted to leave, we would stay in: Northern Ireland’s vote would overrule everybody else. A minority would defeat the majority vote.
      The SNP calls this a ‘double majority’ rule. In fact it is simple minority rule. When a minority can overrule a majority, there is no democracy. To accept the SNP’s proposal would be to submit to anarchy, to ultimatums by any minority.
      The SNP calls this a democratic protection. But their concern for democracy is very partial, a one-way street. She did not propose that unless all four voted to stay in, we leave. If it’s democratic to have a veto on leaving, why isn’t it democratic to have a veto on staying in?
      We must unite our country on class lines, not split it on ‘national’ lines.

    313. heedtracker says:

      We must unite our country on class lines, not split it on ‘national’ lines.

      Will Podmore, that national line has been a giant one between the ears of every single UKOK unionist government in London for decades.

      Loot Scotland, shut down their industry, dump their WMD’s in their Scotland region. poll tax the blighters, take their taxation and their countries treasure and call them bums, take their taxation and their countries treasure and pump it into England’s transport network, catastrophic illegal Gulf wars etc etc etc

      Got that Will?

    314. Taranaich says:

      @ClanDonald: Did anyone else just hear the tory MP Lucy Frazer say in the House of Commons that one solution to the West Lothian Question would be for the British to enslave the Scots and send them off to the colonies?

      That’s horrendously insensitive even for the Tories. The enslavement of Scots by the British Establishment is historic fact. It actually happened. Thousands upon thousands of Scots sold into slavery to the colonies. Before and after the Union of Parliaments (see the clearances). Would Ms Frazer joke about the displacement of Czechs and Poles in World War II?

      You don’t joke about this.

      @kininvie: Without access to the Tories’ polling data, we don’t know exactly how the anti-SNP thing played out. But we do know that the UKIP vote shifted back to the Tories, and although EUref may have been the main driver for that, the ‘break-up-Britain’ propaganda probably helped a great deal.

      But the main purpose (and success) of the SNP hate fest was to put unbearable pressure on Miliband to rule out a deal with the SNP. He succumbed – presumably with the idea of winning in Tory/Lab marginals – but at a stroke he lost both Scotland (no reason left for voting Lab) and all the English voters who quite fancied a progressive alliance…

      If Miliband had any strength he would’ve been able to convince people not only that working with the most popular party in Scotland who’ve been in government there for almost a decade was a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but also that he wouldn’t be beholden to them. He lost Scotland and the progressive English votes, but did that do a damned thing in the marginals? Look how it played out.

      The sad thing is, looking at the sheer apathy of the English electorate, it’s pretty clear that there IS an electorate screaming for an electable progressive party. Labour just wasn’t interested in being that party, and tried to be skimmed Tory when you already had semi-skimmed, full-fat and condensed Tories to choose from.

    315. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: “we will oppose a referendum on membership of the EU.” ?

      They oppose Scotland being taken out of the EU, and will oppose that element contained in any Bill, but you and I know they won’t win unless enough of existing Tories join the rebellion of whom there are many.

      Hence – a good many Tories oppose a Referendum.

      By the way, you keep using the term ‘we’ yet live in the States.

      I returned to my homeland to join in the fight for full democracy. Are you returning to Little Colonial-by-the-Sea to fight for a Referendum?

    316. Capella says:

      @ Heedtracker
      Lucy with a Z oozes charm and wit. She clearly models herself on that psychopathic puritan Oliver Cromwell, “God’s Executioner”. Youtube is full of lovely videos of his genocidal tours of Ireland. Much loved there as you can imagine. Scotland too.
      Of course, the Irish can make their own documentaries now.

    317. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew MacLean: “If he had won the election then he wouldn’t have gone on a suicidal drinking binge. Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable to blame his death on his election defeat.

      Alcoholism killed Kennedy.

      It is just as true to say had he won he would have celebrated with a drinking binge.

      He was already very ill before the General Election began in earnest. I am sure his closest relatives will say as much.

      It is a truism to attest that we will never see the very best from an alcoholic, whether painter, composer, writer, or politician. The various eulogies from Kennedy’s friends referring to his ‘demons’ and ‘illness’ are testament to his addiction.

    318. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: The SNP calls this a democratic protection.

      Get use to it, as they say. Scotland is no longer England’s weekend retreat.

    319. Dan Huil says:

      The Tories have started to put their austerity measures in place. They have also decided to sell off their share of the Post Office. As a result the Tories are putting their beloved “united” kingdom in jeopardy. Fine by me.

    320. heedtracker says:

      Capella, Lucy’s actually predictably sneaky/creepy too.

      Fast forward down their Scotland region timeline and after Culloden, the English went mental across the Highland’s, torturing, hanging, raping, beheading, enslaving, stamping out Gaelic and so on. That was just the start of England’s ethnic cleansing of the Highlands and Islands, culminating in probably their largest English castle ever built on the British Isles, Fort George, Ardersier.

      Last summer we were in Nairn and caught the end of Jim Morphy’s world tour of Scotland votes NO or else garbage. It was just the end of his speech, yelling at passers-by, BBC news crew grovellers, chumming up to/selfies with posh blokes in checked shirts and tweed blazers etc.

      Anyway oor Jim gave his roaring bettertogether unionist speech next to the same High Street house that Butcher Cumberland used just before the battle of Culloden, which is meaningless and rather weird too.

    321. woosie says:

      Gideon’s best man made a fortune on the first PO sell-off; I wonder who’s lined up for a killing this time?

      Ref world cup – no way we can condone uk involvement in a climate of austerity. Of course, what Scots think is immaterial; we’ll just be billed for our 10% of all costs, then sit back and admire London for raking in all the tourist cash.

      And can’t one of our MP’s ask Ms Frazer to explain her racist, hurtful comment re Scots colonial slaves? Would she make similar comments about Asians?

    322. gus1940 says:


      Anybody in urgent need of an emetic should have a look at today’s Daily SNPBadMail where they will find an article on Waterloo by Max Hastings.

      We all know that the Mail is a racist xenophobic rag but I have never read anything so vomit inducingly arrogant and xenophobic.

      The English hatred of and imagined superiority over the French and for that matter all non english peoples including Scots goes from strength to strength and in its own ‘charming’ way will ensure Scottish Independence sooner than they imagine.

    323. heedtracker says:

      Last bettertogether blast of the week from another UKOK con artist in action.

      Salmond accused

      “Trump also accused former first minister Alex Salmond – originally a powerful ally for the New York-based property developer – of being biased in favour of the project and skewing the approval process. The court said his allegations were wholly unfounded.”

    324. Andy says:

      I wonder if taking those 6 or so, vague affirmations and carving them in solid stone was Axelrod’s idea, or if he dropped them like a hot jobby as soon as the cheque cleared.

    325. gfaetheblock says:

      heedtracker says:
      5 June, 2015 at 5:05 pm
      We must unite our country on class lines, not split it on ‘national’ lines.

      So you calling for what? Alienate the Scottish middle class? Drive the geographically and economically mobile out of Scotland? Then what, have folk working the best jobs here then going south of the border at weekend (or working remotely) and paying their taxes to rUK?

    326. Thepnr says:

      If anyone is interested in the Murray v Djokovic semi final you can watch it live here. So far 2-1 Djokovic in sets and 1-1 games in the fourth.

    327. heedtracker says:

      Waterloo by Max Hastings.

      Waterloo was a victory for English princes and Hitler Hastings didn’t get that tag for no reason.

    328. Bob Mack says:

      Sounds like Mr Kennedy had Osophageal Varices,which has developed over many years.He need not have been drinking at all.I witnessed someone die in hospital from the same thing.Massive blood loss within a minute,and even being on an operating table would not help you.
      Sad to say but nothing to do with the SNP.He probably has lived with these for a year or two,and could have expired anywhere,anytime.

    329. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker
      George Gunn has a nice piece about Waterloo over on Bella Caledonia. Effects on a Highlander and an Englishman at Peterloo.

      @ Thepnr
      Watched it for a few minutes but had to turn off. Watching Murray is too nerve wracking!

    330. Dal Riata says:

      @gus1940 says:

      The English hatred of and imagined superiority over the French and for that matter all non english peoples including Scots goes from strength to strength and in its own ‘charming’ way will ensure Scottish Independence sooner than they imagine.

      The English aristocratic nobility and its British Establishment goons are out and out racists and bigots and sectarianists of the first order. From the ‘purring’ queen to dukes to marquesses to earls to viscounts and all the rest, just different layers of the same white-is-right, racist, xenophobic bigotry.

      Those that deem themselves as supporters and followers of such a credo are of the same mindset and, if opposed or stood up to, will, quite readily, turn to violence.

      The class-system, with its snobbery and looking down on others that is so overt in the UK, especially in England, is a result of, and derives from those aristos who believe they are born to rule and are the ‘betters’ of those not within their class.

      That Scotland voted No to stay ruled, looked down upon, vilified and rubbished by such people is utterly incredible. For shame.

    331. heedtracker says:

      Here in England, there’s been a 2 week BBC news black out on Andy Murray but whatever these miserable gits try, our Andy’s the greatest athlete ever produced by the teamGB, Scotland region and he voted YES!

      Which may explain BBC black out but who gives a fcuk:D

    332. john king says:

      Not making it better Dal Riata.

    333. Robert Peffers says:

      I had to switch off the radio and go out. Just couldn’t stand it but then I never could stand that woman at any time.

      I can never even think of the old witch without a wee mental picture of her and Major caught In flagrante delicto with her and his Union Flag knickers lying to either side of the main action scene.

    334. Joemcg says:

      Dal Riata-maybe a bit extreme that but have to admit you do have a point.

    335. TheItalianJob says:

      That Lucy Frazer maiden speech is abhorrent.

      The utter contempt shown by her and those around her cheering her with “hear hear” just makes you sick to the teeth we didn’t get rid of these disgusting people for good.

      This the legacy that Thatcher left to England. God help Scotland and please rid us of these disgraceful dare I say human beings.

    336. john king says:

      First Dal Riata and now you Bob, are we going out of our way to sicken people tonight?
      I only started eating eggs again three years ago!

    337. heedtracker says:

      Three thousand comments later on just one word from Alex Salmond MP.


      What a bunch of very British progressive liberal lunatics.

    338. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says: 5 June, 2015 at 10:51 am:

      “Is Anna Soubrey not a “woman”. I’m getting confused.”

      I tried to post my take on that matter earlier, but found my home network was badly infected so had to start trying to weed out the very obscure attack.

      Anyway I tried to post that Salmond missed a great chance to humbly apologise to, “That Woman”, for calling her a woman but to do so by addressing her as, “The Honourable Gentleman, ‘Mister Soubrey’.

      She did, after all object to being called a woman.

    339. boris says:

      O/T manufacture and supply of blood products, for patient care in the UK has been trsnferred to the private sector. Goodness knows from where the raw supply will be sourced.

    340. TheItalianJob says:


      That Sourby “women” I put in the same context as Lucy Frazer “a contemptible” and repulsive “Thatcherite” clone. Pure dispicible and evil to their core.

    341. heedtracker says:

      Major caught In flagrante delicto with her and his Union Flag knickers lying to either side of the main action scene.

      The mental of image of Prime Minister Major dry humping Edwina Curry over his PM desk aside, Major turned to be the most spectacular British tory hypocrite with his bizarre vote Conservative “back to my place” campaign.

      A bunch of degenerates basically. You maybe had to be there, in 90’s tory teamGB.

      “The old values – neighbourliness, decency, courtesy – they’re still alive, they’re still the best of Britain.”

      Any of country and they’d be a laughing stock. That’s not how UKOK works sadly.

    342. Fred says:

      If Will Podmore is a Communist it’s of the Enoch Powell wing of the party. He’s a little Englander, a narrow isolationist, mebbes he slept wi a Communist in the dim & distant.

    343. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cadogan Enright says: 5 June, 2015 at 1:04 pm:

      “BUT PLEASE get something organised for the list – lets stop SNP voters accidentally re-electing the likes of Kezia”

      Oh! Why worry, Cadogan? Such things have a way of sorting themselves out. How long do you think Kezia would last if in charge of a real Scottish Labour Party? If she were just in charge of the present Branch Office she wouldn’t get backing from anyone who mattered and I’m certain there are good people who could make a better job of a real independent Scottish Labour Party.

      However, I cannot see an independent Scottish Labour Party emerging from what we have now. They would obviously factionalise into one lot determined to be independent and another sticking with their, “Brothers and Sisters”, in the Unionist Labour Party.

      What I can see is an entirely new left wing independent Scottish party emerging from the ashes.

    344. TheItalianJob says:

      Didn’t listen to Edwina’s spilling a load of sh***. But what would you expect from a Curry. ????

    345. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Anna Soubry (Behave woman!)…

      I’m sure I’ve posted these links previously.

      Yes I have! I believe I dedicated the second to Rev Stu.

    346. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hobbit says: 5 June, 2015 at 1:05 pm:

      ” … but the conditions that use of the pound would come with, might make adopting our own currency the better idea”.

      What conditions would those be, Hobbit?

      Those, “Conditions”, are a hoary old chestnut of an establishment anti-Scottish propaganda story. Fact is that the Treaty of Union saw the Pound Sterling become the equally Scottish & English Kingdom’s currency and neither former independent Kingdom has the exclusive legal claim upon it.

      Furthermore the Bank of England was always an independent private company until 1946 when the United Kingdom, (not the Kingdom or country of England), nationalised it but only as far as the ownership of it not in its running.

      It was never owned by the English Parliament or crown. It was called the Bank of England only because the Kingdom of England banked with it – not because they owned it.

      As it was a United Kingdom asset after being Nationalised then upon the Treaty of Union disuniting the legal Status Quo Ante, (that’s a legal term, it means a return to the situation as before the agreement or treaty and the Treaty of Union only has two signatories. When any bipartite agreement disunites both sides share the assets and the debts.

      So the Status Quo Ante of the United Kingdom is a return to two independent Kingdoms. They then share the joint assets. It is NOT one party of the treaty leaving a still united bipartite union that keeps all the assets but shares the debts as the Establishment idiotically claimed.

      So what of the aftermath? The Bank of England would be part owned by the Kingdom of Scotland as would be part of the Bank’s Assets & debts. The Bank would be hard put to exist if they were to abandon Scotland and her share of the assets and debts.

      In practice the economies of both kingdoms would be reflected in the interest rates they set. Remember the BofE is independent of the present UK Government. It is the Bank, not the government, that sets interest rates.

      As Salmond pointed out during, the referendum debate, If they refused to share the assets then Scotland would have no legal call to honour the bank’s debts.

      Furthermore, all well run countries, or states, normally maintain reasonable deficits or they get into big trouble – like the UK are in at present. As did every other state that suffered in the depression. Many states had no great problems – ask Australia, Canada or New Zealand.

      In fact, if you believe the present and just past UK government is actually out of trouble you are deluded. They are hardly even dealing with the interest payments and the actual debt goes up as we speak.

    347. Cadogan Enright says:

      We should adopt Podmore.

      It’s a real education to find out what the poor benighted souls who inhabit what is rapidly becoming the MSM ridden political twilight zone are thinking

    348. Robert Peffers says:

      @K1 says: 5 June, 2015 at 1:14 pm:

      “In light of this, does anyone have any other links that work? “

      Everything that happens in Parliament is reported in Hansard.

    349. Grouse Beater says:

      Anna Soubry (Behave woman!)…

      A dim autocue reader. I should have guessed.

    350. Smithie says:

      Adopt Podmore?—- Naw had enough o pishy nappies, time to move on.

    351. Jim Thomson says:

      @K1 – as Roberts says, Hansard carries the transcript of each day’s proceedings, and it is searchable.

      If you look for a particular named person, make sure you enclose their forename & surname in inverted commas (e.g. “Fred Bloggs”) that way you don’t get all occurrences of “Fred” and/or “Bloggs”

    352. K1 says:

      Thanks Robert and Jim. I was really looking for video recordings, but much appreciate your replies. 🙂

    353. heedtracker says:

      World renowned hammer of the Scots JK Rowling hit headlines again, £4k to Labour leader hope Thom Watson.

      Watson delighted but a million quid to BetterTogether makes it look very tight

      “Rowling donated £1m last June to the campaign against Scottish independence after warning that it could be a “historically bad mistake” to leave the UK.”

      She sure did and whole lot more, like how unionist wheel her out to show the world just awful Scots are that maybe call her “woman.”

      To be fair to the lovely JK Rowling Hammer of the Scots, Watson’s probably the only one that’s not nuts.

    354. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Orangefest’ petition now at 29,346.

      It would be bucking the trend if it hit 30k before midnight, but it’s surely worth a wee Friday-night heave, eh?

      Can we do it? Do we have the contacts, the network, the influence, but, most importantly, do we have the will?

      Well, do we?


    355. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers –

      Most folk here bow to your knowledge of constitutional issues, as do I.

      With that in mind, please consider this – given that most of us had never heard of ‘The Remembrancer’ (that looks weird written down, and I’m not sure I’ve got the spelling correct) until we read about it here, would the 56 not benefit from finding a way to highlight the presence of this character? I don’t doubt that most of the population in RUK have never heard of ‘him’ either.

      (If someone with such influence is hidden in plain view, it makes ye wonder what else is going on.)

    356. Cherry says:


      Here is the Lucy Frazer with a z clip–go

      Here is wee neck too

      Hope these are what you’re looking for.

    357. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Sure WE have the will, just need the rest to catch up.

    358. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian B reposted on Scot2scot sites so should gather a few more signatures.

    359. Dal Riata says:

      john king says:

      “Not making it better Dal Riata.”

      “First Dal Riata and now you Bob, are we going out of our way to sicken people tonight?”

      What are you talking about, john king? Care to elaborate?

    360. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr & Ronnie –

      It’s not gonny happen chaps, but we’re a ba’hair off it.

      In any event, the message to GCC, Matheson and his pals is clear – any shenanigans tomorrow and they’re getting their bums felt, so to speak. In the fullness of time – who knows? – some of them may have their collars felt into the bargain.

      Here’s hoping no-one is sitting with a burst heid and/or crinkly mouth this time tomorrow.

    361. ClanDonald says:

      Dear Will Podmore,

      If you really do want a future of a united, left wing Britain, with Scotland as a member, can I suggest that you concentrate your efforts on creating a left leaning, non-xenophobic England that we might want to be in a union with? Then you might actually have something worth selling to us.

      Coming on here, claiming to be a communist but telling us to stay attached to a far-right, neo-lib England, controlled by aristocrats and financial elite, that is forcing us into a welfare-state free future against our will is a proposition that most on here just can’t take seriously. Sorry.

    362. ronnie anderson says:

      @ IanB
      @ Robert Peffers.
      It would be a good idea for one of the SNP MPs to ask the Speaker who the Rembrant is & whitch constituancy he was elected to represent,like many its a new one on me,who would be up for it ?.

    363. terry says:

      On the subhect of the remembrancer I’d never heard of him either until a young lad from the Common Weal came up and gave a talk about indy ref in Aberdeen in early 2014. After some digging about I found the followoing book – Treasure Islands. It’s written by a F.T. journo but after reading it I was blown away by the corruption of our tax havens. Oh how we need to get away from the Uk –

    364. Dal Riata says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Tonight on misReporting Scotland Ms. Magnusson did actually mention the change(dot)org petition “… almost 30,000 people” IIRC, voicedover a show of OO goons doing their marching thing. The whole thing lasted, oh… maybe 30 seconds? Deep, investigative journalism. You know, what makes the BBC “world class” [sic]…

      Hopefully, the petition will get over the 30,000 mark by tomorrow.

      Two genuine questions, IB, or for anyone else to answer if possible. The petition calls for:

      We demand that GCC answer to the people of Glasgow as to why this was allowed to go ahead in a city centre location on a busy Saturday. Gordon Matheson must be held accountable.

      How can we get the answer to “why this was allowed to go ahead in a city centre location on a busy Saturday”?

      And, how can we get Gordon Matheson to “be held accountable”?

    365. Famous15 says:

      Well I just prayed for rain.LOL L.O.L.

    366. K1 says:

      Thanks Cherry, it’s a start 🙂 I was specifically trying to get a hold of the maiden speeches that jock mc x had been posting. As I was saving them and dishing out to others. But now all those videos of their maiden speeches are ‘private’ and cannot be accessed or played. So am at a loss whit tae dae, cause ma pals are complainin’ tae me aboot it noo! 🙁

    367. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dal Riata –

      On the first question, “why this was allowed to go ahead in a city centre location on a busy Saturday”?

      That’s straightforward enough – the GCC is ‘minded’ to allow this, just as they’ve been ‘minded’ to allow provocative marches over the past three, four decades.

      Your second question: ‘how can we get Gordon Matheson to “be held accountable”?’

      It’s not a question of how Matheson can be ‘got’ to ‘be held’ accountable. He IS accountable. That, in theory at any rate is why he’s there in the first place.

      Whatever happens tomorrow, in George Square, Matheson is ‘accountable’ – the whole ‘Orangefest’ project may turn out to be a fantastically productive exercise in cross-cultural relations/development etc (i.e. all the boxes you tick on forms when you’re after funding) but, similarly, it could be a busy day for Police Scotland, with packed cells on Sunday morning.

      Either way, Gordon Matheson and Glasgow City Council are squarely responsible for permitting this ‘festival’ to happen – if it transpires that any ‘blame’ has to be apportioned, they will get a hefty chunk of it.

    368. Dal Riata says:

      @Famous 15

      I think your prayers for rain may be answered in the affirmative if tomorrow’s weather forecast for Glasgow is correct – rain, lots of it, and accompanied by strong winds!

      May it be absolutely pishing down and blowing a gale. *That* would be pure dead brilliant!

      Hope your parade doeasn’t get rained on, OO, oh no – hope it gets absolutely poured on! GIRFUYz!

    369. Tackety Beets says:

      Ian B , thanks for persisting on the link.

      Tackety Beets , myself and others in our household have all signed.

      It’s such a pity it could not be stopped.

      Forecast looks promising tho’ Wind an Rain , aye crack on , a feel a Travis song cumin on !

      I may sound controversial here but in a way I’m glad the fitba went ahead tonight . I feel those players have nothing to do with the H/Rights , wrong goings on , etc etc in their country . In fact they too have probably been victims at some point.

    370. Thepnr says:

      @Tackety Beets

      I just knew you were gagging for me to play this for you. Sláinte

    371. Cherry says:


      I’ve searched through the last 3 threads and every link as you say has been taken down..I’m sorry don’t know how to get around that. Try and get jock mc x to see if he can retrieve them. He put up around 6 links on Alistairs lament thread at 4.30 am but none of them are working either. Maybe the 56 wanted them removed for some reason….sorry not much help!

    372. Petra says:

      I’ve just returned home from a night out … usual Friday night family gathering. Most everyone, over 40 who were there (and many others who weren’t there), knew about and had already signed the orangepest petition. Five hadn’t. They then tried to sign up on the home computer, IPads and so on (even went to a neighbours house) but kept getting the same message … something to do with signature not being accepted so they were blocked from registering. VERY frustrating and talks about this and trying to register seemed to take over the whole night. Suffice to say five people didn’t get to sign on.

      During this time a big debate went on about whether to mention or not whether you were Catholic or Protestant. Our family is predominantly Protestant but with a number of people who aren’t such as my husband. A decision was made not to mention this at all, as it seemed petty, but with complaints being made that the ‘receivers’ such as GCC would think that the 30,000 or so were griping SNP supporters or Roman Catholics.

      Anyway they were all demanding that Orange walks should be banned for EVERMORE in Scotland, never mind this orangepest. Their comments were decent and reasonable such as pointing out that millions of people, SNP supporters, Roman Catholics and other concerned people would no doubt support this too if they had access to the online petition.

      This petition will clearly not prevent orangepest now but we should all keep on top of this and put an end to the Orange Order celebrating as much as ONE walk never mind over 700 ever taking place in Scotland again.

      This battle took place in Ireland over 300 years ago so why walk about or celebrate this in Scotland in the 21st Century? The battle (complex) was between them and England. Try marching and celebrating there!

      If it’s all about winning battles and nothing else at all would the Irish put up with English people marching through their streets 700 times a year and having a big English fest to celebrate beating them?

      Well we all know that’s not the point. It’s all about demonstrating the power that perverse Unionist Protestants have over Roman Catholics and everyone else now including us.

      I’ve spoken to some of them. They see themselves as soldiers fighting for a cause, What cause? God give me strength. I say, soldiers, then get yourselves off to Syria or wherever and step right out there and blow your flutes as the Scots played the bagpipes in the frontline. But naw they’d rather traipse aboot Glesga. Safety in numbers in aw that.

      And where will it end? Matheson has opened the door for all sorts of ‘fests’ from now on. If not he’ll be sued for discrimination and we’ll have to pay HIS bill.

      Now we have an overpaid ( big pay rise recently) insignificant wee dolt running the show. Scots are said to be the most (at the top of that league) highly educated people in the World. Scotland has, on record, the most highly educationally qualified adults in Europe but hey ho Glasgow ( and the rest of us) is stuck with him.

      Time for Matheson to say tata bella to the bitter, sectarian Orange (dis) Order for once and for all or face the backlash…… from us saying tata bella to him.

    373. CameronB Brodie says:

      Grouse Beater said @ 1:27 pm, 5 June, 2015.

      Hobbit: if Scotland took no share of rUK debt, and/or walked away from it, it would struggle to be able to borrow anything off anyone in future.

      The notion no one on this planet would loan to Scotland because it refuse debt not its own, is, quite frankly, risible.

      I find it hard to imagine that a strategically located and peaceful democracy which boasts enormous natural wealth and renewable(s) potential, an educated population, an established modern economy with ample scope for development, and an accountable government and judiciary, would find raising finance particularly difficult.

      If only more folk had vision and confidence.

    374. john king says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says@ 9.41PM

      I have two questions,

      1 why are we watching Deidre Barlow,

      2 weren’t those tv folk well spoken in Aiberdeen in thay days?
      bring back Grampian tv an get the Quine’s inglish back Aa say!

      Aa long fur the days afore odiniry foulk wur alooed oan the telly
      ye cannea unnerstaun a word they’re sayin,
      naw bring back the foulk wi bools in thur mooths,
      ye can unnerstaun them!
      Dal Raita says@11.52

      “john king says:

      “Not making it better Dal Riata.”

      “First Dal Riata and now you Bob, are we going out of our way to sicken people tonight?”

      What are you talking about, john king? Care to elaborate?”

      Sorry I didnt respond earlier Dal I was in my pit, 🙂

      The comment was a little tongue in cheek but alluded to being reminded of what was taken from us by people who couldn’t even be bothered to investigate the facts but simply voted no because they thought it was the grown up thing to do,
      I was both sad and angry in equal measure after reading your eloquent reminder.

      For all of of us that sweated blood and tears, its just too painful to rake over it, but you know what I mean.
      Famous15 says @12.19am
      “Well I just prayed for rain.LOL L.O.L.”

      What are you like F15?

      Gaun yersel wee man. 🙂
      As for wee Willie Podmore
      I’ve been taking him walkies for months and feeding him the scraps oFf our Chinese takeaways, he is beginning to smell a bit now though. 🙁
      @ME 🙂

      I was looking at a bird book the other day while I watched some feathered friends in the garden and guess what?
      Aceldo atthis is the latin name for a kingfisher,
      an there was me thinkin it was just a collection of scrabble tile letters,
      what are you like btw? 🙂
      mind you where is he/she
      show yourself oh colourful bird

    375. john king says:

      Grouse Beater @5.57

      I could not agree more,
      If (as has already been stated) that the rUK sees itself as a continuing state and Scotland as a new state in turn meaning we would not be entitled to any shared assets, any lenders would view Scotland with derision and suspicion of our fiscal acuity if we took on a share of the rUK debts when we are entitled to no share of the assets (good luck with that one)its also worth remembering by their own admission the rUK would retain ownership of the debt which was obviously done to stop a run on the pound as it became more likely that a yes vote would be achieved.

      In finance there is no such thing as morality or right and wrong, your either responsible for a debt or your not, we clearly had no input into the debt being run up by Westminster so simply cannot be held to account for its reparation.

      If a parent defaults on a bank loan the bank doesn’t the pursue the defaulters offspring does it?

      And of course they effin well know it!

    376. majestic12 says:

      Remember “Me Mammy” way back? They used to pray to St. Pluvius, the patron saint of rain on Protestant outings 🙂 Worth a try?

    377. john king says:

      Further to my previous post
      Any decision on Scotland’s part to take a share of the debt Westminster ran up would be a private arrangement between the rUK and Scotland and would have nothing whatsoever to do with the international money markets but I still suspect that should Scotland play the guys in the white hats the money men would look on it with some derision and possibly affect our credit rating,

      Now would you play the good guys if it affected your credit rating?
      And how many people here think the rUK would underwrite the additional cost of borrowing for Scotland should our attempt to “do the right thing” cause us to be charged more for borrowing as a result, no? thought not.

    378. john king says:

      I seem to have credited Grouse Beater with Cameron Brodie’s comment, sorry Cameron 🙂

    379. Stoker says:

      Petra wrote:
      “This petition will clearly not prevent orangepest now but..”

      Nor was it ever going to.

      All that has been achieved is people being conned into passing their personal details on to what is, essentially, a marketing company.

      I can cite at least 3 so-called petitions, promoted by individuals here on WOS this year alone, which have finally gathered closer to 6-figures (in signatures) and which have achieved absolutely nothing.

      We need to do something a bit more than giving our details to a marketing company to tell people such as GCC how terribly upset we are and that we don’t approve.

      This hatefest should never have even been up for consideration never mind taking place in the city centre of Scotland’s biggest city and on the busiest day of the week.

      If Matheson & Co wanted this so badly, what was wrong with giving them permission to hold it in Bellahouston Park? Or even at Strathclyde park which is not that far away from Glasgow.

      I’m also particularly hacked off at Newsnet with Bateman supporting this hatefest going ahead. I’m so angry about this that i feel physically sick that i’ve supported, promoted and contributed to that site.

      I’m that angry with Newsnet’ position on this that i can’t even bring myself to link to it. Sorry, folks, but if you want to read it you’re going to have to go to NNS and read for yourselves.

      I sincerely hope it pours down non-stop over Glasgow for the next 24 hours and rain stops play.

      Shame on you GCC.

    380. R-type Grunt says:

      I agree with Stoker above regarding Derek Bateman’s stance on this. I think his reasoning is mince to be quite frank. Will we Scots ever actually DO something about what’s being done to our country?

    381. Socrates MacSporran says:

      So many post on her concerning today’s Orangefest in George Square, but, not one has touched that hoary old chestnut about Scotland’s segregated schools.

      I accept the notion that sectarianism and bigotry is mainly if not taught, picked-up at home; I further accept it would be no quick fix, but, maybe, just maybe, if the Scottish Government decided to do away with the idea of “Roman Catholic” and “Protestant” schools, it would be a start in killing off sectarianism and bigotry.

      In my own wee, staunchly-Protestant, former mining village in Ayrshire, I do not see the point of bussing the small number of RC children who live here either six miles to the nearest RC Primary school, or 22 miles to the closest RC secondary school, when there is a more-than-adequate non-sectarian (“Protestant”) Primary in the village and a similar secondary six miles down the road – which has a better academic record than the RC secondary.

      Extrapolate the savings from this one village across Scotland and it will, I bet, come to a fair sum.

      I look at our “County town”, where we have three “Protestant” and one “Catholic” secondary schools – none of which is operating at capacity.

      Four highly-paid Head Teachers, plus Deputies, plus Assistant Heads, plus Guidance teachers, plus Department heads, plus other promoted posts; add in support staff; factor-in the costs of bussing-in the pupils – close at least one and the potential savings are huge. Again, extrapolate across Scotland and the potential for money-saving is eye-watering.

      Of course, the RC Church and the Church of Scotland would raise merry Hell. Non-demoninational schooling for all would close-down a couple of nice wee earners and influence-enhancers for them.

      For instance, I have a very good friend, now retired after his 40-years at the chalk face. This guy was a product of perhaps Scotland’s best-known RC school. He gained a Honours degree at university, but began teaching in a “Protestant” school.

      He went for a promoted post in a Roman Catholic school, but didn’t get it – the RC church’s placeman on the appointments board black-listed him, because he had married a Protestant and hadn’t insisted on their children being raised as RCs.

      That single cleric’s bigotry cost the RC school a terrific teacher, but, a local “Protestant” school got the benefit as he went on to give it valuable service in a promoted post. We need to stamp-out such bigotry.

      I should stress here, I am not calling for the closure of the RC schools. No, close the weakest schools, the oldest, the least-fit-for purpose. Encourage the best, go for a real Curriculum for Excellence.

      The bigots would have a field day, but, it just might finish-off one or two corrupt wee fiefdoms and lead to a newer, more-enlightened Scotland.

      Naw, we cannae hae that, can we?

    382. john king says:

      Socratese MacSporran @7.13

      there goes the Catholic yes vote.

    383. Effijy says:

      UK Debt doesn’t need to have any impact
      On an Independent Scotland.

      All we need to is Vow to pay our share, and once
      Set Free we simply explain that our Vow was
      Built on the same operating standards that Westminster
      Employed with their Vow on a near Federal State,
      The Smith Commission Lie, the French Gate Lies,
      The McCrone report cover up, the covert acquisition
      Of 6,000 square miles of Scottish Waters, the illegal
      War in Iraq to capture weapons of mass destruction,
      That never existed!

      Let’s be kind though, they can pay us back the £1 Trillion of oil revenue
      That they have stolen at £10 Billion per year!

      We need to play them at their own game, Lie, deceive, cheat, steal, and cover up.
      Everything that Westminster is founded on!

    384. john king says:

      Socratese MacSporran @7.13

      So Mr MacSporran, you want rid of sectarianism in schools?
      Leave it with us and come back in 200 years and we’ll see what we can do for you.

      Dont get me wrong Socrates I’m with you on this but the change we all (hopefully) see is required may take many generations to accomplish,

      I was born and brought up in the catholic faith and it sat uncomfortably with me all my young life but it was my parents faith and I followed it dutifully, when I was able to make my own decisions I stopped going to the chapel (much to my mothers chagrin)but in spite of her disapproval she at least saw my choice for what it was and respected it,

      My mother was both a sign of the future and a throwback to the past in one person (which goes to highlight we are not an easy species to understand)
      I wanted to share an experience with you all, but after looking blankly at the screen found I couldn’t write what I felt, maybe when the demons are not so clamorous, but suffice to say I am a classic example of the crossover from the past to what we would all like to see in the future, but not just yet eh?

      Lets allow some of the others who find it less easy than I did to let go of the past a little more time!

    385. john king says:

      Effijy @7.32

      I have said that all along, the cost of Scotland’s “share” of rUK’s debt would be dwarfed by the reparation we would be able to seek for the theft of Scottish assets and property since 1707 the lend lease costs would be just a footnote in comparison and would enfeeble rUK for eternity and THAT’S why they don’t want us to leave!

    386. CameronB Brodie says:

      Lol, don’t give the game away. Cheers though, I forgot to mention debt free.

    387. CameronB Brodie says:

      john king
      And when I’d managed to get a mention in your roundup, almost. 😉

    388. john king says:

      red face, sorry Cameron b. 🙁

    389. Socrates MacSporran says:

      John king:

      I think John, you and I are singing from the same hymn sheet, albeit we got there from polar opposites.

      I am not so sure about your throwaway “there goes the Catholic yes vote” line. A lot of the: “Ma faither voted Labour, ma grand-faither voted Labour and Ah vote Labour” class must have changed sides last month – the days when the priest could “suggest” that his flock vote for a certain politician, usually one wearing a red tie, are also gone I feel.

      That said, I accept, it will take a generation or three to rid Scotland of sectarianism, but, we have to start somewhere.

      My late father wasn’t “Orange”, he didn’t belong to any ludge, indeed, he was scathing towards my uncles who were in the ludge, be it Orange or Masonic. Faither was a member of the Scottish Unionist Party and, even after it was consumed by the Tories, he continued to vote Tory.

      I have always voted SNP and well-remember him saying: “Home Rule means Rome Rule”. His was the unthinking, institutionalised form of bigotry; he thought “Tim” had his place, he should stay there, although it wasn’t a nice place to be.

      That attitude is not as-prevalent today, the tide is turning, but slowly. The question is, do we let nature take its course, or maybe try to help it, and by so-doing, make Scotland a better place?

    390. Famous15 says:

      Time for me to fess up re praying. I am an atheist from what i now know to be a Protestant tradition,I say it that way because many of my faith/sect could fit seamlessly into the lifestyle of Iran.

      Moving to the Central belt as i child and observing Orange marches in Maryhill road i was horrified at their brutality. Stewards with chair leg like battons competed to see how much hair blood and flesh that their phallic symbols could acquire and all seen by the blind eyes of the police.

      Not being of their faith i was still struck by the dignity of some Catholic clergy in the face outrageous OO behaviour ouside the “chapel”. Not just the earsplitting noise but the urine and faeces smeared on walls,i kid you not,and all preceded by a man on a white horse with an open Bible on a pillow!

      I used to think that desegregation would be a positive thing but now realise that is pandering to the very bigotry i detest. Mutual respect is the way forward and I see no need to change the Education Act of 1918.

      I am aware that there is a logical fallacy here in that i object to the OO but let others try to rescue my conflictions!

    391. De Valera says:

      In case anyone thought that Orangefest was scraping the bottom of the unionist barrell, there is this

      A new low even for these lot.

    392. john king says:

      SM SAYS
      “I have always voted SNP and well-remember him saying: “Home Rule means Rome Rule”. His was the unthinking, institutionalised form of bigotry; he thought “Tim” had his place, he should stay there, although it wasn’t a nice place to be.”

      Flip that over and you have my father who insisted an independent Scotland would see the Catholics marginalized just like they were Northern Ireland, and then we see what a problem we in the SNP have in trying to square that for all of the doubters, trying to open their eyes to the fact that it is in the interests of Westminster for both to have a suspicion of independence, so they wont do anything to deal with the sectarianism in Scotland, while we’re too busy fighting among ourselves they know we cant fight them with a united front,
      having said that each passing generation sees less and less emphasis on the divide and even less understanding of its origins.

      Getting rid of denominational schools however could set the campaign for independence back generations if not forever,
      its a problem best left unresolved for now.

    393. gerry parker says:

      Can’t seem to get the Freedom Square webcam this morning.


    394. john king says:

      “I am aware that there is a logical fallacy here in that i object to the OO but let others try to rescue my conflictions!”

      I see nothing illogical in that at all
      to dislike a group who want to drag up something that happened in the (whatever ) century doesn’t require an individual to be on the opposite side of the sectarian “divide”I think any right minded person would look on the antics of the OO with disdain and disapproval.

      Remember those very people tried (and failed) to portray the independence supporters as people who couldn’t get over Bannockburn and Culloden, almost to the point where (shamefully) they managed to steal our history from us, remember the disgraceful antics of Stirling Council last year, unforgivable!

    395. john king says:

      Gerry Parker
      “Can’t seem to get the Freedom Square webcam this morning.”

      Surely they wouldn’t have disabled it Gerry?
      Heaven forfend!

    396. Capella says:

      @ De Valera
      It is indeed a vile piece of journalism. Here’s the archive link to save clicks getting them more money.

    397. manandboy says:

      I can clearly see sectarianism all around me, but never in myself.

      If all the Catholic Schools were Protestant schools, and all the Protestant schools were Catholic, would the arguments swop over as well, making the protestant schools ‘the problem’. The answer is no, for the simple reason that Catholics do not share the feeling towards Protestant schools, that Protestants have for Catholic schools.

      Today, on BBC radio at around 8 am, an author of a book on the OO, was interviewed – no one else. She spoke only of the wonderful things the OO did, like it’s charity work.

      The BBC sees sectarianism all around but never in itself.

    398. gerry parker says:

      @ John King.

      Since it is every parent’s right to send their child to a school of their choice, couldn’t the parents decide to end segregated education by sending their children to the nearest, or the best regardless of denomination?

    399. john king says:

      I read the crap in that artice with a growing sense of anger De Valera at no point did the Mail show ANY evidence of “vile cybernats” attacks, time for a complaint to

    400. G4jeepers says:

      RE: unable to see SNP maiden speeches on youtube

      Anyone contacted the SNP on this?
      Would be interesting to know what has happened here.

      I think those of us who wish to hear them should be allowed to do so.

    401. Dr Jim says:

      I am also an Athiest because I have always believed Man invented Religion to control other men
      Plus I don’t believe in mythical super beings

      In Scotland the big two religions have always been Catholic and Protestant

      Maybe we could start the process of education by doing something about the folk who find it difficult pronouncing the particular version they espouse
      You could ask them if they’ve ever read the book on which their Credo is based,
      But they already know the answer to that one (they are prepared)
      “Aye, it says we’re right and youse are aw rang ya bastirts”
      They’re also consistant

      Everybody knows who they are (The Kafflicks and The Prodisints) It’s like a sitcom isn’t it, are these not the very chaps who require help
      or at least rehoming (Zoo maybe)

      “1690 or 1960 or well, it’s wan ay they dates ya bastirts”

      Glasgow, my fair city, makes you proud

    402. Capella says:

      In the list published by the police of the places where the 500 Orange marches were organised, it was notable that there were none in Grampian and and Highland Regions. I am glad that the blight of sectarianism never cast a shadow over my childhood.

      But it is possible to bring the two sides together. The United Irishmen did this in Ireland in the 18th C at the start of their struggle for independence from Westminster.

      The Scottish reformer Thomas Muir visited them on his way back from revolutionary France.
      Muir’s 250th anniversary is coming up in August. Maybe a Muir Fest in George Square would be a fitting tribute?

    403. G4jeepers says:

      @gerry parker

      Works for me ;-p

    404. john king says:

      Gerry Parker @9.21

      Couldn’t agree more Gerry, my own daughter faced a problem with putting her child into the local catholic primary school not because of religious convictions but because it was the nearest and (in some peoples opinion) the better school, but was met with difficulty as the school maintained they had no more spaces left but had given a child a space who came from Kirkcaldy 7 miles away because her mother came from Lochgelly and went to that school herself and was of course of the catholic persuasion ,so yes I agree that the schools should be for local children irrespective of their religion. incidentally it was my school as well when I was a child and I can see it from my front window if I crane my neck.

      As a footnote to that My wife reports that according to the grapevine out of all the children in the primary 4 class the children taking their 1st communion amounts to 4 out of the entire class, times they are a changing.

    405. Brian Powell says:

      John King

      I think the editor of the Daily Mail is the chairman of IPSO.

    406. Capella says:

      The scurrilous Daily mail attack on the SNP re Charles Kennedy was written by a Guy Adams. Does anyone know if it is the same Guy Adams whose twitter account was suspended?

    407. gerry parker says:

      @ G4jeepers

      Got it thanks.
      Right dreich it looks too.


    408. Joemcg says:

      Famous-still shocked at that post OO wiping urine and excrement on Catholic Churches. Truly vile.

    409. john king says:

      Brian Powell @9.52
      “I think the editor of the Daily Mail is the chairman of IPSO.”

      PERFECT, so when he refuses to acknowledge his own papers culpability, that’s the clarion call for us to (en masse) kick up holy fuck with our MP’s to get a body independent of the newspapers to oversee its behaviour!


    410. john king says:

      Gerry I think you would be just the man to lead us in the attack. 😉

    411. Famous15 says:

      I would love to confidently condemn the Daily Mail. My view however is that all parties have vile,foul mouthed “enthusiasts”. They may well deliver thousands of leaflets et etc but one entry on say this site calling opponents c@@ts destroys not just their efforts but the efforts of more rational supporters.

      Yesterday on here, my wife was called a c@@nt by a person i simply questioned what he meant by fighting fire with fire. Read the Daily Mail article and weep.It contains elements of truth since we appear to suffer fools gladly.

      We are better than the portrayal in the Mail but like other parties we must educate or cold shoulder the nasty. I will fight fire with fire as I will flame any thug who tries to destroy my dream.

      If you cannot control your anger please join another campaign

    412. LizM says:

      Had a quick peek at webcam. Definitely doesn’t look like a busy scene as yet. 🙂

    413. john king says:

      I think we’ve just found our new cause celebre to keep us off the street for the next few months. 🙂

    414. Brian Powell says:

      Wow, the Unionists are out in force over DM on Charles Kennedy.

      Tactics, the last one didn’t work so get more, that’ll d it.

    415. Capella says:

      Guy Adams seems to have a bit of an attitude to the SNP. He doesn’t like them. A selection of recent Daily Mail efforts:

      Invasion of the McManiacs: Boorish, boozy, picking fights… Even Nicola Sturgeon’s alarmed by the Commons antics of the SNP’s yob MPs
      May 22nd 2015

      Little Miss McHypocrite set to lord it over England: Full story of the cynicism and double standards of SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon who could soon run England with Red Ed
      March 21st 2015

      Homes vandalised, accused of stealing jobs and an atmosphere of discriminatory ‘intimidation’: The savage racism turning Scotland into a no-go zone for the English
      Sep 5th 2014

      I think we can assume he is busy scribbling more “journalistic” gems.

    416. john king says:

      Famous15 @10.18

      Aren’t you forgetting something?

      That idiot cited absolutely no evidence to support his claim, don’t be so quick to blame our side when there is no evidence of any wrong doing,

      Don’t for a minute imagine that they wouldn’t have shown evidence if such evidence had in fact existed, and lets not get into the “twitter has stopped people from linking to deleted tweets”,

      If its sauce for the goose its sauce for the gander, no evidence of a crime, no crime END OF.

    417. Joemcg says:

      John- it’s a sad indictment of Scotland when we talk about “our side” over a question of self-determination for a nation. We truly are a strange strange country.

    418. Capella says:

      @ john king
      and even when there is “evidence” who’s to say it isn’t a fake account for use of agents provocateurs?

    419. john king says:

      now heres a thing

      half an hour, its worth it

    420. Macart says:

      Heh, the Mail. Right wing, reactionary and intolerant so you don’t have to be.

      There will never, ever be any let up from the UKs media where Scotland or the independence movement is concerned. They will lie, misrepresent, obfuscate, demean and deny right of redress. There will never be any balance. There will never be any pause. There will only ever be more and yet more of the same.

      The very establishment we want shot of OWN most of the media. They don’t need a cunning plan or a conspiracy, they only require a standard operating procedure. Defend the established order with all means at your disposal and believe me, that’s precisely what they are doing. They won’t care about collateral damage, or about a breakdown in society, trust in institutions or inciting hatred within communities. Hell, these people shave without need for mirrors and shun sunlight near as I can tell. 😀

      We keep doing what we’re doing in building and supporting our own media. We keep putting boots on ground at elections. We keep informing people to the best of our abilities. The wilder their narrative, the more rattled and afraid you can be sure they have become. The more sure you can be that their world is closing in on them. Leveson nailed their culture to the wall. Bent from the ground up to the highest levels and people know it.

      All their power couldn’t prevent May 7th and it damn near failed them during the referendum, only narrowly getting them across the line.

      You guys did that and you haven’t had your best day yet. 🙂

    421. Edward says:

      I see Jo Swinson supporting the Daily Mail ‘journalist’ over his tawdry piece

    422. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      “Heh, the Mail. Right wing, reactionary and intolerant so you don’t have to be.”

      It’s overtly bigoted, homophobic and racist as everyone with an I.Q. higher than a peanut knows full well.

      Hence why Clegg’s Liar Dem spinners at their HQ and on twitter are so fond of quoting from it now. Just think how very proud they must be of themselves. 😀


    423. Famous15 says:

      The daily Mail story regarding the bin vandalism did strike me as blaming the SNP for hungry foxes but i still wish some even here would swallow their bile. We should not answer vile taunts with viler taunts.

      Softly,softly,catchee monkey as my grandad would say. Try being subtle .

    424. HandandShrimp says:

      The Daily Mail has been making unsubstantiated attacks on the SNP and independence supporters (not to mention the Greens and just about anybody that isn’t a Tory) for a long time. A paper devoid of irony and any of the decent human virtues.

      I do agree with Famous15, there is no need to be gratuitously unpleasant to anyone. The Unionists have plenty of rabid, vacuous and verbally incontinent bullies, posters and twitterati.

      We have the majority of MSPs, MPs and Councillors. We can fight from a position of strength and depth. We do not need to rant and rail or tilt at windmills. There is a lot of good will towards our new MPs from ordinary voters. We simply need to continue to highlight that, fight for what is right and counter the lies and smears. The Daily Mail, as we can recall by its hatchet jobs on Miliband and Nicola is smear central.

    425. Jim Thomson says:

      Hmmm… George Square webcam ( ) not showing anything.

      I see they now have the get-out of:

      At times of high website traffic the web cam may become unavailable for short periods. If this happens please try again later.

      Well that’s ok then. It must just be awfy busy.

      Aye, right.

    426. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      John King at 9.12


    427. john king says:

      “You guys did that and you haven’t had your best day yet”
      Dont forget though Sam your one of the people we hold as being the best of us,its from leadership from people such as yourself and others on here too numerous to mention that we have become a force to be reckoned with.

      The thing these people either forget or simply don’t realize, is that they are playing with fire when they come up with crap like that because after 3 years of honing skills, and arming ourselves with facts rather than assertions, this site could very well be the best in the world at defeating such empty rhetoric as coming from that facile little piece of projection in the mail!

      As like Andy Murray we started with getting our asses handed to us but now we’re getting stronger and stronger and moving up the world rankings,

      Remember the shock that after the loss of the referendum that the campaign came back from the extinction event they widely predicted, to not only regaining our strength but to have grown immeasurably and come back even more powerful than ever,

      Whenever they come up with crap like that they show just how weak they really are and have to resort to make believe to support their empty arguments, and it only adds to our support and will make us invincible, keep it coming daily mail, keep it coming!

    428. Jim Thomson says:

      @StevieMcB 10:52am

      Nah, they’re no death threats, they’re part of the OO “Cultural Heritage”.

      Silly you.

    429. Jim Thomson says:

      and now the clickable link to that “temporarily unavailable” webcam

      (forgot to leave a space between the left bracket and the “www” bit – sorry.)

    430. John king says:

      I just hope poor wee Paul Dacre hasn’t spent too much money on his wee pied a terre up in the highlands!

    431. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Shereen talking about Orangefest right now, Radio Scotland. Petition has been mentioned on all this morning’s news bulletins.

      Well done a’body – we did what we could, and a big shout to Julie Philp. 🙂

    432. HandandShrimp says:

      I see they have ideal weather for the Tangofest.

      The sun shines on the righteous and all that 🙂

    433. Macart says:

      @John King

      Whoa there John, ah jist wear a pair o’ auld overalls like most folks and lend a vote. 🙂

      The real go getters are the likes of WOS, DB, BELLA, NS and a host of bloggers out there.

      The real heroes chap doors and stand on streets in the pouring rain or blistering sun. They give up weekends, nights and time off to make stuff happen. They’re all over this site and have went through umpteen pairs of shoes in the past few years.

      I’m a ranter wi some banter. 😉

    434. Jim Thomson says:

      @John king

      does he ever visit his Langwell Estate near Ullapool?

      Does he simply have a management team there looking after it?

      I’d like to think he mixes with the locals in Ullapool if he ever deigns to visit. It would only be natural for him to vent forth with his opinions about the Scots while in residence.

      I also wonder how many copies of his rag sell up there.

    435. Jim Thomson says:

      Damn it John, you’ve got me into the Dacre whirlpool.

      Here’s an interesting resource.

    436. Eddie Munster says:

      ” Capella says:
      6 June, 2015 at 9:35 am

      In the list published by the police of the places where the 500 Orange marches were organised, it was notable that there were none in Grampian and and Highland Regions. I am glad that the blight of sectarianism never cast a shadow over my childhood.”

      Hate to burst your bubble Capella, and anyone else that thinks that the Highlands has escaped the Orange walks and ASSociated sectarianism. . .

      Inverness does have a “Apprentice Boys of Derry ” march through Inverness, because according to them “it’s their human right” to march through Inverness, commemorating the relief of Derry in Northern Ireland.

      They were invited to march by a Rangers pub in Inverness, “The Portland Club”, that has since gone out of business and is now a Mosque.

      They also march in Perth and Stirling.

      Also the Orange Lodge last marched in the Highlands about 1988-90ish.

      Heres a Telegragh article from 2003 saying the the Orange Lodge were going to “Celebrate the English Victory at Culloden” ”

      “The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland has not marched in the Highlands for nearly 15 years but officials said it was considering holding a religious service at the scene of the battle outside Inverness to remember the English soldiers who died there.”

      “It has been suggested that similar celebrations might be held next April 16 on Culloden Moor. Robert MacLean, executive officer of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland, said the battle was an important event in the history of the Scottish reformed church.

      “I do not see us staging a march in the Culloden area but it is possible that we may arrange a service to commemorate the battle,” he said.”

      I complained about the article being historically incorrect, as the battle wasn’t “Scotland, England”, got a nice reply back in 2010 saying they would amend the article, its now 2015, and it hasn’t changed.

      All they have done is closed the comments and deleted any that were posted.

    437. Jim Thomson says:

      @Eddie Munster I also note that they have the article in their “Education” section … speechless.

    438. Eddie Munster says:

      Forgot to say I use to live in Inverness,now live in Dumbarton and it’s being pissing it down here just now, hope it is in Glasgow too, to wash away the stench of excrement caused by sectarianism.

    439. Princess says:

      I think Jeremy Corbyn could be PM.

    440. Capella says:

      @ Eddie Munster
      I have never seen an Orange March. There were no segregated schools where I grew up in rural Aberdeenshire. That is maybe one of the reasons why the sectarianism is not the obvious street problem it is in the West of Scotland. It suggests a possible solution – integrated schools. I thought Tony Blair’s encouragement of “Faith” Schools was wrong.

      But I have no doubt there are OO groups. Just not part of the cultural landscape in the way they are in Glasgow and district.

      However, it wouldn’t surprise me if there are now efforts to stir up sectarian division throughout Scotland.

    441. cearc says:

      Eddie Munster,

      ‘They were invited to march by a Rangers pub in Inverness, “The Portland Club”, that has since gone out of business and is now a Mosque.’

      That is the funniest thing that I have read for ages.

    442. Famous15 says:

      Faith in human nature restored. Only 67 people in George Square at noon.

    443. HandandShrimp says:

      Likewise grew up in the Highlands and Islands and didn’t even know they existed. Now live on the West Coast but we don’t have one in our town. I saw a glimpse of one from the car when driving through Ardrossan a few years ago but that is my one and only sighting.

    444. Lollysmum says:

      Famous 15
      “Only 67 people in George Square at noon”

      Ah but they’ll be saying it’s the weather that kept people away. They won’t want to admit the truth even to themselves that sectarianism has no place in the 21st century.

    445. Jim Thomson says:


      Now, y’see ye’ve no done yer BBC counting course huv ye?

      The webcam clearly shows at least 2 thousand people having a great time.


    446. Eddie Munster says:

      @ Jim Thomson, I spotted that little priceless gem too.

      @ Cappella, living in Inverness for 30 years since birth, I don’t recall any Orange marches happening at all in Inverness, until the Derry boys were invited by a “Rangers” pub, now we can’t get rid of them.

      They start howling about human rights if challenged, why are a NI loyalist band marching in Inverness.

      There has always been a catholic school in Inverness, my recollections are, that the kids that went there because they were catholic, nothing more.

      But sectarianism has always been under the radar in Inverness, due to Rangers and Celtic.

      You could watch an old firm match in Inverness and not be worried much, about getting punched in the face, for wearing the wrong colours.

      It’s all changed now since the Derry Boys were invited to march.

      Inverness is now a no go zone when the Old Firm are playing.

      Here in Dumbarton where I’m living now, they have “Integrated” the Local School with the Local Catholic School. Both were on the same street but separated by housing.

      I quote integrated, as even though, it is all one school, the Labour Council put in a “Catholics Only” entrance to the school, to still keep the kids apart from one another

    447. Bob Mack says:

      My own father was evicted from the family home for daring to get engaged to a Catholic (later my mother). I have family on both sides of the sectarian divide,and it is not pretty. The rhetoric is one of hate and superiority,and is fostered at home and passed on to the children.God forgive the parents.
      Many friends of mine whilst growing up in Glasgow,went on the marches,but were true in their loyalty to me despite me being a Catholic.It is a funny business altogether.
      The only tune I can play on a piano is the Sash,which a friends father taught me..I loathe and detest both sides of extremism,but love my family and friends.
      I guess I must be some kind of misfit.
      I will fight for your freedom,but not for your right to belittle me.That is the ultimate aim of these people.To prove they are somehow better.You are not.

    448. Capella says:

      Here’s the Bella Caledonia article on Orange Fest and the Police FOI response to the number of marches. Grampian and Highland are missing from the list. Glasgow at the top with 500.

    449. Eddie Munster says:

      @ cearc, I love making people laugh, must be the Nasty Nat in me 😉 lol

    450. Pantcadifor says:

      Sectarianism is non existent here in Wales, we have Catholic schools, church of Wales schools, Welsh language medium schools as well as state run schools, everyone gets on just fine.

      What we don’t have is hundreds of orange parades each summer and a football club that acts as a lightening rod to attract anti Irish Catholic racist bigots.

      I don’t see how separate schooling could possibly be blamed for Scotland’s culture of sectarian division, when a similar model of separate schooling exists in England and Wales without any of the tribal division we see in Scotland.

    451. Phronesis says:

      The juxtaposition of the images of George Sq today compared with the YES events that have taken place there- packed out with attendees ,worthy speeches,in the sunshine, music worth listening to- couldn’t be greater.

      It sums up the difference between a movement in decline that is backward looking and the independence movement which continues to go from strength to strength because it is able to navigate the complexity of political thinking and looks forward to a better Scotland that includes all its citizens.

    452. Helena Brown says:

      On the subject of Orange Walks, I must have missed the ones that were held in Edinburgh, I certainly will go out of my way to miss them now. In 1984, yup, that year, I was off with Husband and Mum to get Mum a wee Jack Russell Pup. We had time to waste and decided to take a trip up to Stirling, so yes Eddie Munster they do hold them there, unfortunately.
      To say I was disgusted would be to be very gentle with them. I could not but wonder what sort of vision of Crimpelene dressed Thugs this spectacle gave to the tourists among the population, because it was a lovely Saturday in the Summer in Stirling.
      We could not get out of the place for them either. Made a lasting impression and to say it wasn’t a good one. Coming as I do from a mixed family, in the sense we are all Religions and none and tend tolerant.

    453. bugsbunny says:

      Famous 15

      A couple more and they would be the same number as their favourite pastime. All those “Billy Boys”.

    454. call me dave says:

      More pigeons than people at the ‘doo’ in the square according to what the web cam is showing.

      Murray wins 4th set game on.

    455. ronnie anderson says:

      The best lay’d plans of meeces an men afton gang aglay,but the Jetstreams here tae stay lol.

      Freedom Square’s still Free. Free of thousands an thousands of Onionists,they,ll no sell many burgers the day, with or withoot Onions.

    456. Les Wilson says:

      I hope there is thunder, lightning, and pouring rain on George Sq today. A sign from above, GTF.

    457. uno mas says:

      Just had a look at “Freedom Square” web cam.

      Interesting to note that the organisers have installed porta loos.

      Hope they have posted instructions for usage in them as those things are a lot trickier to use than an open close mouth.

    458. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Some 40-years ago, the “Black Walk” (“Royal” Black Perceptory – the bigots’ bigots) were marching through Cumnock.

      A few of the lads from the local Wimpey-run opencast had had a post-work swally or ten and were standing at Ayr Road corner watching the free cabaret as the various ludges trooped past.

      One particular Orange fanatic was jumping around the street with a tape recorder, recording the bands and trying to get an impression of the day. Occasionally he would ask a bystander to say something into his mike.

      Usually he got the probably sought-after “FTP” comment, until, that is, he made the mistake of sticking the mike under the chin of a legendary Irish “travelling man” – “The Flying Red Doc”.

      Doc, six-foot-five-inches of carrot-topped Limerick man, informed the recorder: “Youse is a shower of feckin dirty Orange C#nts”.

      The would-be Simon Cowell looked at Doc, then at the other six equally big “Paddies” around him and fled. Even we “Proddies” nearby laughed, it was priceless.

      Doc, by the way – did the best Ian Paisley impression I have ever heard.

      My dear-departed old boss, such a fanatical Celtic fan he was at both Lisbon in 1967 and in South America for the Montevideo Riot the following year, always insisted his personal hero was the Glasgow tram driver who, in the 1950s, ran his tram at full pelt down Govan Road one Saturday morning, forcing an entire Orange Walk to scatter, and in particular squashing the discarded Lambeg drum from the leading flute band.

    459. Jim Thomson says:

      I find it interesting that they have chosen the end nearest the chambers as the focus. The CH end doesn’t seem to be sectioned off at all. I’m assuming that’ll be the end for the plebs.

      It also means that they don’t have their “security” in place at that end. So anything that happens there won’t be their fault.

    460. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks, Jim Thomson, for the video link to Freedom Square and the O/O.

      If you look closely, you can still see their inclusive message left from 19/9/14: OBAY YURE KWEEN.

      Lest we forget our two heroines from that shameful night.

    461. Stoker says:

      Is this what they mean when they say “people are not aware of the great charity work we do.”

      I came across that article when searching (fruitlessly) for several known cases of charity theft within OO establishments which have taken place throughout Lanarkshire in recent years.

      RE, Stirling & Inverness:

      As far as i’m aware, from living in Stirling, they (OO) were given permission to march but it took place prior to the shopping mall opening at 8.30am/9am.

      There was never any marches, that i was aware of, when i lived in Inverness (it was a great place to live) but there was the usual sizable contingent of “Old Firm” supporters in the town (as it was back then) and the usual fisticuffs between them were not unheard of. Add to that mix the towns squaddie population and the majority of folk i knew who disliked them and you were always aware of the potential powderkeg underneath.

      But for the majority of folk “Shnekky” (sp?) was a happy party place where a great night out could be had by most. A thoroughly enjoyably place to live when i lived there and i now have a great many happy memories of the old town.

    462. Stoker says:

      Jim Thomson wrote:
      “I find it interesting that they have chosen the end nearest the chambers as the focus.”

      Yip, i picked up on that too.

      Tinto Chiel wrote:
      “Lest we forget our two heroines from that shameful night.”

      Yip, Sarah and Sophie.
      (Forever in my mind)

    463. Tackety Beets says:

      I’m also an Eberdeenshire Chiel.
      I do not recall any sectarian-ship what so ever.

      In fact I was grown up and married with my own off-spring before I even got a whiff of the situation you have in the Central belt.
      This could be down to me of course,blinkered and naive , but it was never on our radar whatsoever. Folk are folk , JT Bairns etc
      I did experience Ibrox , pre segregation in late 60’s as a wee loon. Once was enough.
      Marches in Inverness are very rare.
      Sadly Inverness has lost the usual Legion Pipe-band marching for the tourists etc too.

      I want to add a wee mention about how I know of yet a few more people admitting to regretting their NO vote.
      One in particular “I’m a NO as I want thing to stay the same” very frustrating as we all knew YES or NO , nothing was staying the same , alas they could not see it .

      AS posted many times on here , slowly …. catch the monkey .

    464. Capella says:

      @ Pantcadifor 12.19
      Point taken. It’s good to hear that sectarianism has no place in Wales.

      I don’t agree with separate religous schools. I’m not “religious” myself (though I do believe we all have a spiritual dimension). I think religion is a personal and private matter which has no place in schools except as a subject for study in the curriculum. That means studying ALL religions and also humanism and atheism.

      It’s hard to reconcile the basic teachings of Christianity with the aggressive bigotry of an Orange march. Local authorities (who provide the licence) could confine them to a field or park if they felt marching would intimidate the general public.

    465. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Oh well, quelle dommage…diluting orange all round in ‘George’ Square.

      Another PR catastrophe for GCC – wee Gordy must be looking on with a lump in his throat.

    466. Petra says:

      I wonder if the Daily Mail, Daily Record, BBC, STV and so on will report the abuse that Julie Philps and her family members are having to deal with including death threats?

      And will anyone, Police?, ascertain who has hacked into her Facebook page?

    467. Chic McGregor says:

      Bowler hats on jaundiced penguins. They even walk the same way.

    468. Jim Thomson says:

      Right – got it wrong (again) – my post at 12:57pm.

      The camera is on the chambers looking towards the CH. Just had a mental tussle there trying to figure out the shadows which seemed to be coming from the north .. duh.

    469. Stoker says:

      @ Jim Thomson.
      Are you sure, Jim?
      I thought that was the way over to the Corner Bar (top right corner)? Or am i as disoriented as you? I’m away for another look.

    470. Stoker says:

      No, you’re correct, top right is one of the entrances into Queen Street station. Och well, the stench must have interfered with my sense of direction.

    471. Eddie Munster says:

      @ HandandShrimp, Like wise, never heard of them till I came down here to the central belt, even worse around Ayr than Glasgow Ive heard, and the OO are despised there too.

      @ Helena Brown, Only been through Stirling on the bus or train going to glasgow, never visited. To think that where a pivotal battle to take on and expel an occupying “furrin” army, would celebrate the actions of the same “furrin” army, years later, in the occupation and conquering of Ireland is just crazy.

      @ Stoker, Aye, you knew when the squaddies were in town because the red caps where out in force, strong arming them in to a waiting van.

      If Sir Connery were visiting he’d call it Shneckie lol, its sneck or sneckie or as the locals say as its full name “unver-ness”. Funnily, “ri’ ee-nuff” some people say I sound like “shur shuan”. My parter is always getting me to say . . .

      ” A book fell on my head, I can only blame, my shelf”

      People have also commented on my stunning Russian and Spanish accent too . . .

      @ Petra, if its reported on, I suspect someone in the police will finger someone from Belgium , and say the family did’nt have a strong enuff password, thus bringing it on themselves.

    472. K1 says:

      Cherry, good on you, searching back through the threads, and yes indeed I got all of the links from said threads. I note someone else has suggested contacting the SNP, perhaps their communications team asking them to provide you tube links, as they are very popular especially in light of the dearth of coverage in the mainstream?

      These videos provide the antidote to the perception that is being perpetuated of the SNP MP’s as somehow ineffective ‘nobody’s’ by the MSM, and can be disseminated into the living rooms of those who do not have access to the internet by those who do. They provide excellent example’s of our representative’s calibre and character, and erudite debating capabilities: they are not the ‘feeble’ fifty six, they are as individuals and as a group the best representative bloc of MP’s Scotland has ever voted for to represent us in Westminster.

      We need these maiden speeches as tools. In fact the SNP needs to set up a dedicated you tube channel that provides a one stop shop for all the debates and speeches, any votes that they are involved in etc., over the next 5 years. So that what is happening is instantly accessible and more importantly to provide that ongoing antidote to the unionist’s poison that emits from our so called ‘news’ channels and ‘dead tree press’.

      Factual information is power.

    473. Toby says:

      If the O O or GCC wanted cause to celebrate any historic battle, they should have remembered on ” this day of days ” the sacrifice of the thousands of allied servicemen, of many beliefs and none and of multiple nations, who took part in the Normandy landings 71 yrs ago. Those men and women were ‘true heroes’, but year after year the anniversary of their sacrifice goes by,barely noticed in our communities.
      It would befit them better to annually remember such a cohesive endeavour, than to celebrate a battle from a 400 yr old civil war.

    474. Eddie Munster says:

      Just had a thought . . .

      What if the sun had come out for “Orangefest”(tm) and people turned up, expecting over tanned and caked in make-up “Senga” types doing a New Orleans Mardi Gras thing?.

      Not knowing it was something to do with the “OO”, getting drunk on cheep (Aye, cheep, I’ve got a slight speech impediment. [see- Sean Connery]) cider, then stumbling in to George Square and found it full of pale, gruffalo type, milk bottle skinned men, with no tops on and moobs out every where, I think they would of found themselves in a tight situation, very quickly.

      I can just see it,

      “Ho’ where’s the burds?, I didn’t come here for no sausagefest with leathery faced auld wimmin!”

      “what’s with all the recorders, penny whistles n drums? Can ye no play a proper instrument?”

      (Fade to black as George square once again, gets a covering of red with orange.)

    475. Fred says:

      The Orange Order is, compared to my young day, an outfit with its future behind it.

    476. Stoker says:

      @ Eddie Munster (3.16pm).

      To all – This from the BBC teletext service:

      “Orangefest scaled back in gales”
      “A controversial Orange Order event dubbed Orangefest has been described as a success, despite being hit by bad weather in Glasgow. Some parts of what the order described as cultural and heritage day were scaled back in George Square, with rain and high winds dampening the turn-out. An online petition opposing the event was signed by more than 28,000 people. Organisers said it had been a wonderful day, despite the weather which saw gusts of up to 50mph.”


      “MacAskill to stand down next year”
      “Former justice secretary Kenny MacAskill is to stand down as an MSP at next year’s Holyrood election. The SNP member for Edinburgh Eastern said he wanted to pursue new challenges, but said he would remain committed to the independence campaign.
      Mr MacAskill, 57, was justice secretary for seven-and-a-half years. Opposition parties were critical of a number of his decisions during his time in office, including plans to abolish corroboration which were later dropped.”

    477. Petra says:

      THE Orange Order’s Cultural and Heritage Day – Freedom Square 06/06/2015-

      ‘”Hopefully our Heritage Day will demolish a few myths and give people a better understanding of who we are and what we stand for.” Robert MacLean Executive Officer GOL Scotland.”

      Well we don’t have to get involved in orangefest to find out about the Orange Order at all Robert. It’s all online.

      ‘Politically, the Orange Order is a conservative British unionist organisation with links to Ulster loyalism. It campaigned against Scottish independence in 2014. The Order sees itself as defending Protestant civil and religious liberties, whilst critics have accused the Order of being sectarian, triumphalist and supremacist. It has also been criticised for associating with loyalist paramilitary groups. As a Protestant society, non-Protestants cannot become members unless they agree to adhere to the principles of Orangeism and convert, nor can Protestants married to Catholics. Orange marches through mainly Catholic and Irish nationalist neighbourhoods have often led to violence.’

      ‘The Orange Order had a central place in the new state of Northern Ireland. From 1921 to 1969, every Prime Minister of Northern Ireland was an Orangeman and member of the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP); all but three Cabinet Ministers were Orangemen; all but one unionist Senators were Orangemen; and 87 of the 95 MPs who did not become Cabinet Ministers were Orangemen.James Craig, the first Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, maintained always that Ulster was in effect Protestant and the symbol of its ruling forces was the Orange Order. In 1932, Prime Minister Craig maintained that “ours is a Protestant government and I am an Orangeman”.’

      Requirements for entry: “An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father, a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity ….. he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome and other Non-Reformed faiths …. diligently train up his offspring, and all under his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith

      ‘The Scottish branch of the Orange Order is the largest outside Ireland. The vast majority of Scotland’s lodges are found in the Lowlands, especially the west Central Lowlands (Glasgow, Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire). Scotland’s first Orange lodges were founded in 1798 …. The Scottish branch grew swiftly in the early 1800s, when there was an influx of working-class Ulster Protestant immigrants into the Scottish Lowlands…. the Scottish branch has been both smaller (no more than two percent of adult male Protestants in west central Scotland have ever been members) and had more of an Ulster link.’

      ‘In 2004 former Scottish Orangeman Adam Ingram sued MP George Galloway for saying that Ingram had “played the flute in a sectarian, anti-Catholic, Protestant-supremacist Orange Order band”. Judge Lord Kingarth ruled that the phrase was ‘fair comment’ on the Orange Order and that Ingram had been a member, although he had not played the flute.’'_Day_Boys

      ‘Peep o’ Day Boys was an agrarian Protestant association in 18th century Ireland. Originally noted as being an agrarian society around 1779–80, from 1785 it became the Protestant component of the sectarian conflict that emerged in County Armagh, their rivals being the Catholic Defenders. After the Battle of the Diamond in 1795, where an off-shoot of the Peep o’ Day Boys known as the Orange Boys defeated a force of Defenders, the Orange Order was instituted, and whilst repudiating the activities of the Peep o’ Day Boys, they quickly superseded them. The Orange Order would blame the Peep o’ Day Boys for “the Armagh outrages” that followed the battle.’

      ‘In the aftermath of the battle, the Peep o’ Day Boys retired to James Sloans inn in Loughgall, and it was here that James Wilson, Dan Winter, and James Sloan would found the Orange Order, a defensive association pledged to defend “the King and his heirs so long as he or they support the Protestant Ascendancy”. The first Orange lodge of this new organisation was established in Dyan, County Tyrone, founding place of the Orange Boys.’

      ‘The Orange Institution has even recently been forced to admit, its membership had collapsed to 35,700 by 2006.’

      ‘Lord Mandeville was anxious to vindicate the Armagh Magistrates from the charge of favouring the Orangemen. ”There was no foundation for the accusation. The investigation was about a brawl at a public-house. The hon. Member was quite wrong when he assumed that the outrage was commenced by the Orangemen.”

      Mr. Feargus O’Connor said ”he would not have uttered a word on the present subject were it not that the hon. Baronet opposite said there was some palliation for the conduct of the Protestants. ….. When he saw the defenders of the Orangemen on the Treasury Benches he could expect little conciliation, little relief to the Irish people. It had been stated that few police had attacked the people, but the fact was, that there were thirty-seven police who had joined in the attack, and by whom murder had been committed, and there was no magistrate to control them in the outrage. It disgusted him, and all Irish, and all English Members, that they were obliged to rise, night after night, to defend themselves from a fanatic and out of the House, which would lead to the desolation of Ireland. He had no confidence in the declaration of Government that their great aim was to put an end to party feeling in Ireland. He had no confidence in the late Government, for their professions were falsified by their acts. They gave him a Commission, and when they put him to the trouble of the inquiry they did nothing. The Orangemen were now become too powerful to be interfered with. He had no confidence, therefore, in the present Administration, nor in any Administration. His confidence was in the pressure from without.”’

      ‘Mr. Smith O’Brien said ”it seemed that the north of Ireland was in a state of civil war, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department gave encouragement to the factious feelings which prevailed, by receiving, and forwarding gracious answers to, addresses of an illegal character. For what other purposes were those addresses received, if it were not to keep up the feelings of faction, and the excitement that existed? …. When the Orange party saw the allies, by which they were surrounded, and the spirit with which they were defended, could the Government be surprised, that it had not the support of a single Catholic in Ireland, nor of a single Member who truly spoke and represented the sentiments of that body?”’

      Ian Paisley preaching up a storm!

      Old man Paisley, on his way out, changing his tune on the discrimination against Roman Catholics.

    478. Cherry says:


      No prob was happy to do it! Can you give me a heads up if/when you have collated the clips of the maiden speeches. I would like to have them as a collection.

      I think it would be a great idea to have the SNP use them as anti-propaganda, just as the msm use everything from a cough to a f#@t and blame SNP. It is certainly more entertaining listening to our 56 than it was listening to the likes of Mags Curran trying to navigate her way through the english language! Too harsh? 😉

      Good luck with the searching and if I can be of any help in your “quest” please contact me. Go to:-

      beardielvr1(at)blueyonder(dot)co(dot)uk And no,I don’t have a thing about beards,I am owned by two beautiful Bearded Collies! Stunning Scottish dog breed! 😉

    479. Stoker says:

      A couple of related links for those who haven’t seen them yet:
      (with some good follow-up comments)

      Diners cancel George Square bookings ahead of Orangefest

      Orange Order defend Orangefest event in George Square

      These articles are particularly interesting and reveal how sneaky and underhanded the whole organisation of this event was.
      Apparently, nearby businesses were not informed of the pending hatefest taking place because “the event would be self contained.”

    480. galamcennalath says:

      Someone said on Twitter, Stu retweeted …..

      “If the SNP really were Nazi bully boys they’d get a better press from the Daily Mail.”

      …. irrefutable logic, I would say!

    481. gus1940 says:

      Andrew Marr repeating the Daily Mail Lie that dastardly Cybernat attacks on Charlie K during the GE Campaign contributed to his untimely death – spouted out as ‘fact’.

      Typical BBC and of course as we have become accustomed to when SNP politicians are interviewed – unfortunate communication problems leading to his interview with Angus Robertson having to be aborted.

    482. majestic12 says:

      Some years back I was invited to a private house party in London to meet the SNP MPs. I ended up spending much time in the garden with Alex Salmond as we were both smokers at the time, he of the, “Do you mind if I cadge a fag off you, I’m not supposed to smoke?”, type.

      I had had occasion to complain about anti-Catholic remarks made to me at a London branch meeting by a member who has now risen in the ranks and is acquitting himself splendidly at parliamentary level. Whilst the voiced sentiment appalled me, I was more troubled by the idea that an SNP member felt comfortable in sharing these thoughts with a complete stranger, the assumption being, I assume, that if you were a member of the SNP then you wouldn’t be a Catholic. I took up the issue with the branch and my concerns were passed on to head office and I believe the person in question was “spoken to”.

      I brought this subject up with Alex in that London garden as I knew this was one of the biggest obstacles the SNP had to smash down – the perception, fostered by Labour in Scotland, that the SNP was an anti-Catholic party.

      Alex told me then of his much-anticipated and very convivial weekly meetings with Cardinal Winning, the Archbishop of Glasgow, a man of no mean intellect. This very subject of sectarianism and anti-Catholic bias in Scottish “society” cropped up often, as one might imagine. Whatever else may have been disputed, both men agreed that abolishing faith schools in Scotland would set back the country and its aspirations for independence by generations, as one commenter above also stated. Alex had given an undertaking that faith schools in Scotland would be protected by any SNP government that he had anything to do with.

      Anti-sectarianism and secularisation are two different things. I think we would all applaud the former but the latter is an issue of some contention. Aggressive anti-theism is on the rise, or so it would appear, and the de-Christianisation of Britain, from the very top, has been on the agenda for many years. But to understand why Labour had the west of Scotland Catholics in thrall with its lies about the closure of all Catholic schools by an SNP government, one has to do some research about why there were Catholic schools set up in Scotland in the first place. It is a very sobering story of terrible racism and bigotry visited by the Protestant Scots on the poor Irish immigrants who were subjected to an apartheid that included the exclusion of all Irish Catholic children from state education. The fact that the SNP government has largely managed to heal these old wounds is a remarkable triumph.

    483. Will Podmore says:

      heedtracker wrote, “Loot Scotland, shut down their industry, dump their WMD’s in their Scotland region. poll tax the blighters, take their taxation and their countries treasure and call them bums, take their taxation and their countries treasure and pump it into England’s transport network, catastrophic illegal Gulf wars etc etc etc”
      Yes, and the capitalist class also loots England and Wales, shuts down our industry, dumps USAF bases all over Britain, poll taxes us all, takes their tax money and their countries treasure and calls them bums, take their tax money and their countries treasure and pump it into catastrophic illegal Gulf wars etc etc etc.”
      The capitalist class is our common enemy. Don’t let them divide us and rule us. Unity is strength, division is disaster.

    484. Just back from a month in in spain, and met lots of “proud scots” nae wonder mcarthy and mcgeady opted for ireland.

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top