The state is not her
One of the dumber things we see regularly posted on social media is that Yes voices should stop criticising the First Minister because her leadership is the only reason Yes is now consistently ahead in the polls and we would have no chance of winning a new referendum with someone else in charge.
This is obviously nonsense, because Nicola Sturgeon was SNP leader and FM for five years in which support moved barely a single millimetre, until COVID-19 came along. Our current lead is due entirely to a tiny invisible virus and a giant Etonian buffoon.
But you know us, readers – we like to check.
So last week’s Panelbase poll which put Yes in the lead by 56-44 also had a couple of questions from us in it, including this one:
And as you can see, what it found was that the replacement of Sturgeon as FM would as far as can be reasonably ascertained make absolutely no difference to the outcome of a second independence referendum.
6% of people currently planning to vote Yes would definitely switch to No, but 5% of No voters would definitely switch the other way, while 13% of Yes voters would reconsider their position but so would 17% of No voters.
As was the case with Alex Salmond, the FM’s personality is very much a double-edged sword: lots of people love her irrationally, but lots of people hate her irrationally too, and the two groups pretty much balance each other out.
To be quite honest, the fact that over a quarter of Scots are willing to at least consider changing their view one way or the other on the entire future of the country over their opinion of a single individual politician is one that disturbs us greatly.
But then, as we already knew, the exact same proportion of Scots – 27% – thinks the Sun sometimes revolves around the Earth, so we suppose we shouldn’t be surprised to confirm again that Scotland is a country of at least a million bloody idiots.
We’ve got to nail this ” it’s all thanks to St Nicola” shit. Good article Stu.
Lots of people don’t think, because they are not taught to in our schools. Add in the known tendency of people to agree with things for fear of being wrong or just confusion the 27% is not that surprising.
The interesting thing would be to do an international comparison of that question and see where we sit. That data point in isolation conveys little actual information. Except that we are social animals who react in social ways in social situations such as being polled.
I tutor the sciences and have encountered all manner of misconceptions. It’s my job to correct them and try to teach thinking. Not to judge the misconceptions. Even as a PhD scientist I’m quite sure I still have some unrecognised. I bet I could show you have too Rev.
Stu. That is a slam dunk in basketball terms. It proves that ONLY SNP diehards are susceptible to the cult of Nicola.
Well done.
Glad someone said this. Especially the “double-edged sword” remark.
Yes it’s been evident since last time, and remains evident, that far too many people think a referendum is the same as a general election and that you are choosing a party or leader in both.
I’d wager that if Alex Salmond was still in charge, the polls would have an even greater lead for Yes. He is not as sheepish as Nicola when it comes to holding Westminster’s feet to the fire and far more adept at countering the media obfuscation and downright lies.
He would by now also have an identifiable F@&king plan!!!
Aaaand… your demonic standing has increased by 6.66 percentage points among the faithful…
Good work, you must be doing something right.
Hmmm, I’m visualising a twist to these polls…
Not just the hypothesis that Sturgeon is quietly replaced as leader, but that she is actively deposed as leader, and booted out of Bute House kicking and screaming amidst the ignominious scandal of a criminal conspiracy to see Alex Salmond branded as a sex offender, further discredited for the abandonment of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty and doing nothing whatsoever to defend Scotland’s place in Europe, and further condemned for destroying the SNP’s credentials as Scotland’s radical Party of Independence.
Fair comment, that might not change the polls much, but the boost to morale after 5, nearly 6 years of this stifling inaction would do wonders for those YESSERS who’ve never stopped campaigning or taken their foot of the gas the way Sturgeon and her brand of SNP has.
Right now, NS dangling the carrot of temporary easing of lockdown for Christmas as some kind of ‘reward’.
For every citizen who sees this as a cynical attempt to pre-empt mass resistance to the measures, there’s another who will be genuinely grateful to Nicola for her kindness.
As an eternal optimist, I think people are lazy , not stupid. That is the problem. If they was a magical formula to sit them down and face the facts, they would acknowledge the earth rotates the sun, that the earth is not flat, an that independence doesn’t revolve round singular personalities.
at this moment in time i love wos and the first minister
It is also notable that since the start of the pandemic support for Independence in Wales has increased by about the same as support for Independence in Scotland in absolute percentage terms.
Indeed, it might be argued that the movement is far greater in Wales because it started from a much smaller base.
Whatever the reason for this is, I am doubtful anyone would ascribe it to the Labour leader of the Welsh Government. Much more likely the common factor is the diabolical performance of those at Westminster.
Of course, I am sure there is a certain section of the Scottish electorate that would credit St Nicola of the Immaculate Deception for the increase in support for Welsh Independence too.
One of the problems about blogs and their reading populations is that they are not typical. The perception of NS here is not very similar to that of a less politicised group. Most people have a nodding acquaintance of issues such as the AS affair and the role of many of the parties. Most people are not remotely aware of saga of the SNP accounts and secret pots of money or clever viring or whatever has been done.
(I actually looked at page 27 note 20 of the accounts and it was not clear what it meant and probably did not provide certainty)
I suspect what is being seen by the many less motivated Scottish voters are the incongruous(for a PM)blustering waffling antics of Johnson and Co, and the rather sinister or alien appearances of Gove and Rees Mogg or the weirdly covert threatening style of people like Mark Francois. But remember that these impressions are markedly different to the millions living in England who see ‘one of a (very different) us’, a population generally much more comfortable with unmerited entitled privilege.
I suspect the increase in indy polls is related to a vague sense of wholesomeness from NS-she could be a well turned out ‘one of us’ which is something that the Scottish electorate are responsive to. The ‘Krankie gag’ is not a put down in Scotland maybe the reverse- a hint of amused affection.
NS is actually politically very astute and and sure-footed in public appearances and one suspects she is tough and very resilient. Her performances regarding Covid are quite accomplished. This is what is seen by the majority-not the dodgy manipulations or inconsistencies thrown up by a close attention to detail.I suspect this is why the polls are favourable while within the ‘disgruntled bubble’ it all seems so undeserved.
For completeness, how did the 8% (77 weighted respondents) who said they didn’t know how they would vote to a new IndyRef, react when offered the no-Sturgeon option? Your questions haven’t been added to the Panelbase tables yet (I wouldn’t expect them to have).
There always seem to be some people who respond to an “and if” question by feeling they have to change their reply – especially by shifting to Don’t Know as here. I suppose they want to indicate they need to have a think about it. But in the end most don’t shift, so the electorate may be less flighty than you fear.
The issue is not so much whether Nicola Sturgeon is responsible for the current level of support for independence, but more whether a party that ditches its leader just before an election can get its act together in time to avoid harming its electoral prospects. I’m quite sure that there are people in the SNP who could successfully lead the party, but whoever it is would need time to get into the driving seat and I don’t think this could be done in time to win a majority in May.
I used to regard myself as a Nicola Sturgeon loyalist, but I am very concerned about her possible role in the Alex Salmond affair. I am also concerned about her failure to progress the independence cause, at least to the point of sharing a vision about how she intends to achieve it. And I am further concerned about the “woke” tendency which she seems to support unquestioningly.
But for me, independence is the issue that outweighs all others. Even the gross injustice meted out to Alex Salmond takes second place to achieving independence. And if we turn on Sturgeon just 6 months before an election, splitting the only party that has a realistic prospect of achieving independence, the result could be that we lose momentum and are condemned to eternal subjugation.
This is the time to put a brave face on it, hold our noses if necessary and vote SNP. Do not think that the SNP are so dominant that they could not lose this election. Look at what happened to Labour – that’s the mistake they made. And think how you will feel if we find ourselves being governed by a “Unionist Coalition” (Better Together Mk 2) of Tories, Labour and the other lot.
United parties win elections – divided parties lose elections. Just look at the electoral record of the Tories and Labour at a UK level. The Tories happily abandon their principles in order to gain power, unite around a leader and more often than not, win. Labour have an honest debate in which they openly discuss their divisions and proceed to lose most elections. A great strength of the SNP up until now has been its unity – or at least its perceived unity. If achieving independence is genuinely important to us, we need to get real, unite behind the current SNP leadership and postpone the blood letting until after the election and preferably the referendum.
“For completeness, how did the 8% (77 weighted respondents) who said they didn’t know how they would vote to a new IndyRef, react when offered the no-Sturgeon option?”
25% same way, 7% different way, 69% don’t know.
Over 300 years of ingrained colonialism is hard to shake off.
I only support Scotland regaining her Independence. Politicians come and go.
A bit o/t but currently live
Butch Davidson or whatever name she is masquerading under now Demanding Nicola Sturgeon adopts her supper powers of foresight to give her and her party a cast iron guarantee of what is going to happen to her arrangements for her Christmas dinner.
FFS look south sweetie , look what a bloody shambles your party , not ours yours, the total mess that they are and still are making under the stewardship of clown in chief Bawjaws, every single thing they have done has spectacularly failed not a few everything , Truck loads of Cash have been plundered from the treasury all the culprits have links to your Tory party so it’s beyond brass neck cheek for billy bloody bunter to not only show herself in public but actually start being bloody snarky about it .
Why do all opposition MSPs feel the need to adopt the Drama Queen act when asking questions , everything is a catastrophe a total never happened before disaster with untold consequences compared only to Armageddon , and that’s just the shortage of fresh broccoli in the canteen .
Considering Nicola filched the regular updates flanked by the health minister and chief medical officer straight from Jacinda Ardern. It wasn’t even her idea.
link to archive.is
Just guessing here, but the Pogues and Kirsty MacColl might suddenly be a hot contender for Christmas No 1.
Breeka at 1231 –
I believe you can add abandonning conservation issues, namely siding with the Nasty Party agains Nature Emergency, and with the Grouse Shooters by ignoring the Werrity Report.
So that’s Wildlife enthusiasts including the RSPB supporters who may well applaud her downfall.
@TD,
I have often thought about exactly what you are saying, but there are major stumbling blocks.
You might think a Government who tried to put Alex in jail is fine and tolerable. You may also believe that the hard won rights of women over just the last hundred years are to be sacrificed on the alter of a minority trans group.
You may also think centralised control and shutting down voices with acceptable concerns are also bearable.
I cant. That way leads to a very dark place indeed as history has taught us many times, and whilst we were waiting on free elections post Indy, laws would exist to put you in jail should your criticism exceed some prejudiced level. Hate speech.
Poor Manny Singh . Helping to fight for Scotland’s freedom and bumped into Barlinnie for so doing. Is this the Scotland you can live in? It’s not freedom.
So now we know that whoever is leading the the SNP has no effect on how people will vote in an indyref could we perhaps find a leader that has credible plan for achieving one.
That graph reminded me of a cartoon in student common rooms in the 80s of “Labours plan” 4 identical panels of someone sitting on their erse in a comfy chair and a fifth of an empty chair with the caption off to vote labour.
As b4 mentioned,all too many (i note especially females), have elevated Sturgeon to “dear leader” status.
I wonder would they continue to do so were she to dress like thon auld manky bitch that heads up Work & Pensions Coffey?
Not many I’d think.
Appearances count for much, and Sturgeon, parading around immaculately dressed and coiffed (at our expense), appeals to many.
She’s (rightly) lauded for her competant handling of the current health situation, but, doing no more, or less than ought to be expected, and as any one of us, ad basic, decent human beings would also do.
Sturgeon out would be my preference.
Let us make no mistake about this but Nicola Sturgeon is going to become a huge electoral liability.
The Etonian buffoon that is the prime minister and his equally, if not more odious party of government is the reason for the rise in folks wanting Scottish Independence.
It is most certainly not through the efforts of Nicola Sturgeon who has tried to use the coronavirus epidemic as a stage prop to her daily briefing.
And her part, and her governments part in the foul attempt to use the power of the state and political influence to destroy Alex Salmond will also be her undoing.
Sturgeon is bad news. And that news is only going to get worse as we move towards May 2021.
But like Trump she may try and stay the election for a year to keep herself in power. Now removing the right to democratic election – right up this wee facist’s street.
Some times we have to say things that is not popular, or even broach a subject that has people screaming your wrong, your a conspiracy theorist, your making it up, because they do not like to stretch their belief system in a way that is uncomfortable to themselves, they would rather go all woke and shut down free thought and speech , they would have a person up against the wall in front of a firing squad, these crazy thought people can stretch the limits of wokeness by burning and vandalising something that is offensive to their senses rather like toddlers having a giant world wide tantrum,
We have to say and discuss all things right down to the bone, because someone has to be the grown up,
I don’t always agree with you stu because of your quick shit, I take no nonsense replies,I think you could let some people down slowly, and encourage people to learn to expand their thinking.
But having said that, it’s that sharpness, dog with a bone, let’s get our questions answered and intellect that puts you streets ahead of others, and if you were scared to dig deeper and not think outside the box, we would all be a lot more ignorant as to some of the subjects you have covered over the years.
SO having explained all that, at the risk of being lined up, and shot, this is my opinion,
Many of us are realising that wether the snp are rotten. Wether the snp are infiltrated. or Wether the snp just like the happy full time paying jobs they have, does not matter. What matters is time, we do not have the time for new parties to become established, we do not have the time before brexits deal or no deal is totally finalised, we do not have the time for court cases, we do not have the time to see what invisible BJ does with Holyrude, We do not have the time to wait for elections next May,
What matters is how do we the people can get out out the jam we are in, how do we the people have a voice with such limited time left before the rug is pulled from under our feet, and we are legally bound to some new legalities passed by Westminster, if no one is guiding us, or no captain at the helm.
We the sovereign people of Scotland need to pull our ace card immediately, we have a legal right, recognised here in Scotland and in England in the “ The Claim of Right “ to choose who governs us, be this temporary or on a more permanent basis,
We need a very quick discussion on how to go about this before the Brexit deadline,
To the best of my understanding,I believe we do not have to include any government, as it is the people whom are sovereign over and above governments,
Stu, I walked at most of the AUOB marches: Glasgow, Edinburgh, even at your spiritual home, (Campbeltown, in case you’re wondering).
I noticed who marched with us from the SNP.
I noticed who didn’t. We all did. We all mind.
We noticed Nicola Sturgeon and all her woke acolytes kept well away, nary even a passing nod of recognition.
My first serious concern re Ms Sturgeon (who made it clear she would not touch AUOB with a barge pole) was when she chose to march in London, to stop Brexit.
This fact still leaves me dumbfounded when I think about it. She who apparently wants Scotland to make its own decisions, by righting the democratic deficit, marched against England’s right to self-determination!
England voted for Brexit. Why did she want to stop that? Why did she not take this as the gift from destiny that it undoubtedly was and turn it to her own country’s advantage. I will not stand in England’s way but England must not stand in Scotland’s way. That was all she had to say but she chose to ignore this gift by wishing to cling to a UK which no longer existed. How could any Scot trust such a leader and her motives?
How would any Scot react to Johnson being parachuted into England to march in Edinburgh to stop a Scottish Indy Referendum result? All of Scotland would be rightly furious but Sturgeon chose to insult England’s democracy.
My suspicion of Sturgeon stemmed from the day I saw her grinning like the cat with the cream and Alistair Campbell at that Stop Brexit March.
Her complete failure to ready us for Indy2 fill me with despair.
Thank you for this article. It echos all my fears.
As Shakespeare’s Brutus (Julius Caesar), warned,
“There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.”
Sturgeon’s waiting around (for whatever motives – possibly to refill SNP coffers) endangers us all. Power is a force which ebbs and flows and by her fatal waiting, our power to beat the English Establishment is ebbing.
It may already be too late and in later years history may curse Nicola Sturgeon as the first minister who fiddled whilst Scotland burned. Time will tell.
Nicola totally dismantled Richard Leonard, parceled him up in a little box and sent him off to Never Never land at FMQ today.
It was a thing to behold.
@James Che,
Sadly Nicola Sturgeo will still be in charge to the Nth hour. We have no chance to persuade her to move by protest or any other means short of a rebellion within the SNP party. There are only signs of green shoots in that direction, but nothing that would stand up in the political storm that followed.
Boris has a decision to make very soon. Nicola will still be in charge when that decision is made. This game will be played out before or after the next Holyrood elections if they take place. Neutering Holyrood making political attempts at Independence futile regardless of who had the majority.
So we go on..
gullaneno4 @1:38
And what did that achieve exactly?
Some would say that Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want independence, she’s wasted a mandate for independence because Mrs. Murrell is an agent of Westminster.
If any of this was true all she has got to do is mess up on Covid. Stop the daily updates that make her and independence so popular. But wait, she continues to hold the daily updates, which she knows makes both her the Scottish Gov, and Independence more popular. Effin hell it just doesn’t make any sense!
DPG above:
These numbers tell us that there are 5 or 6% who seem to be saying ‘Indy cos Nicola personally’.
So for them she does make a difference.
But it’s equalised (or close to it) by folk who are saying ‘I’d vote indy if she goes’.
Those are the facts, bugger all to do with a general sense that 54-58% (depending on poll) want indy because she is ‘wholesome’. At most 5-6% want it because they think it matters what leader is in charge and it being her is a dealbreaker for them.
The rest of the support is made up of (in varying degrees and combinations, for which I am not going to pretend I have hard figures at my fingertips):
i) People who just want indy (probably the largest group);
ii) Some folk who’d prefer ‘more powers’ but that isn’t on the table and they wouldn’t vote ‘No’;
iii) Some folk who were/are EU supporters and still support the SNP’s stance on this and must feel that this would remain its stance post-Nicola (as her not being leader doesn’t change their minds);
iv) Some folk who were/are Leave voters but think independence is more important and Nicola being leader or not doesn’t change their stance in any way;
v) Folk who despise Boris Johnson and want independence because he is PM (the sort of opposite of folk who want indy because Nicola is leader);
vi) Folk who despise the Tories, and understand that Boris’ removal wouldn’t change their general Toryness and the direction the UK is going in;
vii) Some folk who think Nicola has handled COVID well, at least when compared with ‘that Boris’. These folk will include the ‘indy cos Nicola personally’ folk;
viii) Some folk who think we’d probably have handled COVID better than Boris no matter who was in charge of the SNP or Holyrood.
There will also be many many other motivations I can’t think of or even appreciate but the point stands: Nicola personally will account for a fraction of ‘Yes’ support as not everyone (about one quarter at most if this poll is being believed) is making their choice based on who the apparent leader of ‘Yes’ is.
Even then it is arguable that the person is seen as a figurehead for policies they appear to represent and that, when you drill down, it’s actually the policies they like or don’t like.
If I thought Nicola was going to deliver independence. Then I would let the Salmond stuff slide until after the vote, and then get rid of her. However the truth is. Nicola will not deliver independence and she is a corrupt individual.
So there are two very good reasons above to get rid of her , and pronto.
If ever you were in doubt as to the British state’s happiness with the current First Minister, it’s worth noting the amount of unremittingly positive and fawning facebook comments which greet her every utterance. The SNP can’t afford that kind of astroturfing. But someone can.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The state is not her One of the dumber things we see regularly posted on social media is that Yes voices […]
-Cuilean-
Because there’s no cause more fashionable among the liberal middle class than opposing Brexit (for avoidance of doubt I also oppose Brexit), and the support of, and validation by, that sector of society is what Sturgeon craves. Going on that march means lots of nice write-ups in the Guardian, cheers from broadcasters and academics with “Stop Brexit Make Tea” signs, and photo ops with folk like Alistair Campbell who have exercised real power (in his case, helping destroy a whole country).
Far more fun for an ambitious politician than traipsing through Glasgow with people who believe in independence because they know it’s the only way to get a government that will at least attempt to solve our social problems (I’m personally unconvinced that AUOB marches attract many to our cause but that’s a minority opinion on here).
Oh and by the way, how much use were the nice people on the Stop Brexit March? None. They had the March, but their opponents had the power, which is what matters, and wanted it more, and that’s why we’re crashing out of Europe in a few weeks.
Cuilean @ 1:26
Excellent appraisal of a lot of people’s views , it’s as if some in the management side of the SNP are actually embarrassed by any association with the grass roots of the independence movement , the usual suspects that have joined in the marching or even heaven forbid joined Alex on his RT show no doubt will be sidelined and treated with contempt.
When I watched Nicola Sturgeon saying she regretted the name ” Scottish National Party ” well that was a WTF moment , bells started ringing and I thought what prompted her to make that remark , then I thought I don’t remember seeing her on a march, any march for independence , She is happy to be seen on other marches , gay pride,Brexit etc but why never a AUOB organised March as far as I know every one has never caused any offence or disruptive violent behaviour all have been viewed as a peaceful family day out , very puzzling.
Questioned Mr Blackford on a couple of things got the routine answers, keep the faith type of stuff. Asked why we were so intent on keeping England in Europe when they blatantly didn’t want to be there – no answer! No idea why Nicola marches against Brexit and for Pride but when it comes to AUOB there’s complete silence.
Gullaneno4 at 138pm no she did not .Other way round.
And everyone else who would you have as leader
How is hating somebody who tried to put an innocent man in prison for the rest of his life, causing untold heartache to him and his wife…’irrational’? Pretty empirically iron-clad, if you ask me.
@gulaneno
Dismantling Richard Leonard, isn’t particularly difficult, as whole libraries of TV footage will clearly testify. Were she to regularly ‘dismantle’ Johnson, Gove, Jack, Ross or Davidson, I would be greatly impressed, not to mention greatly surprised.
I’m just an anonymous bellend on the internet, but I’m pretty confident that if I had been leading the SNP since 2015 I would have suport for indy at 65%+ by now.
What I would have done: Galvanised all the vigorous support for indy post-referendum. Brought all the activist support for indy together under one broad umbrella – active bloggers, indy supporters in other and no parties etc…
What I wouldn’t have done: Encouraged spleen-ridden cliques and factions; set groups of indy supportes at each other’s throats; ostracised people; kicked indy activists out of the party; tried to get indy activists chucked in jail…
+3%
What I would have done: Been constantly visible at every possible indy-related public event; led from the front; talked up indy; filled people with hope and confidence…
What I wouldn’t have done: Forbidden any mention of independence; snubbed every single indy-related event for five years; got one of the most active organisers chucked in jail…
+3%
What I would have done: Kicked up a huge stink about Brexit; badgered every international organisation on the planet; turned Brexit into a mass casus belli for independence; prepared means and measures for Scotland to stay in the EU…
What I wouldn’t have done: Smarmed around England telling people there they weren’t allowed to have the Brexit they had voted for; smarmed around snuggling cheek to cheek to one of the most repulsive people in the country…
+3%
What I would have done: organised my 100 MPs and MSPs along with external experts into work groups preparing policy documents to enable ordinary activists to answer the questions or allay the fears of no voters on all the key issues – the currency, the Shetland issue, pensions, defence etc…
What I wouldn’t have done: Left all my MPs and MSPs twiddling their thumbs in the background; Set up my own one-man dog and pony show; hogged the public limelight for months on end with my daily “How St Dave is saving you all from the new Black Death” schtick…
+3%
I see that’s me at 69%. I’ll think of a way of getting it past 70% tomorrow.
A Person
If the AUOB marches do anything then it’s social validation that the idea of independence is not some idea of some bearded crazies sitting a pub. So it does not much matter whether it attracts anybody new but it does send a strong message that a very large number of people think independence is a good idea.
Speaking of idiots who think the sun revolves around the earth…
Since the Twittiot ban seems permanent, have you thought of “Parler”?
I’m not an account holder on either, but anyone is able to see what people say on both just by searching, and I used to quite enjoy checking in on Rev’s tweets in the olden days.
Thank goodness that Scots will still vote for independence if Sturgeon is proven to have broken the Ministerial Code and needs to step down. It appears to prove that Scots don’t see Sturgeon as a necessity when it comes to ditching this unfit for purpose union.
Maybe Rev, you could pop in a question on who Scots might like to replace her, when the time comes, as FM.
David says:
19 November, 2020 at 2:10 pm
Apart from being like a broken record, you are also the embodiment of the beaten spouse…
Ah ken, ah ken… But whit’ll ah dae if ma mannie leaves me? Whit’ll ah dae…
If Sturgeon was run over by a bus tomorrow, the only thing that would happen would be that in a matter of weeks everybody would realise what a fucking useless, scheming, sleekit, nasty wee liar she is.
O/T
A bit of a screw up with the Level 3 & 4 travel
restrictions here!
Mike Russell advises that those living in the above areas
are not banned from International travel as such, but you
would be breaking the law if you travel to the Airport?
I have family due to travel to their Tenerife holiday home
tomorrow.
The Airline is still flying tomorrow so they lose their money if they comply
The English Commonwealth Office are the only ones who can stop the flights.
They also paid for 2 Covid Tests at £120 each in order to fly.
Now how many working class or retired people are going to comply and throw away £800?
If a Hotel was involved too, it could be a loss of thousands.
To mix things further, if you live next to the airport, you are travelling in your area?
Not thought out!
Bawjaws wants to start firing defence rockets into space…from Scotland. Talk aboot warmed-over Trumpian ‘Space Force’ utter rubbish! Madness.
link to news.stv.tv
The incompetence of the current administration knows no bounds:
link to raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
WhoRattledYourCage
All those high-tech weapons systems and comms equipment aren’t much good without GPS. Military access to Galileo was turned off with Brexit and after pleading for a special deal the EU told the UK government to fuck off.
The UK government already blew 500 million on a failed satellite company thinking it would be a cheap and cheerful replacement (though I’m not sure the deal actually went through). Now they look to blow another few billion.
I wonder who will get the contract?
@ David Ferguson at 2.18: spot on. And it is completely obvious – to us. So why not by the Leader, MPs, MSPs, HQ etc etc etc.
What a waste of 6 years – we could have been free years ago.
Pals of Bawjaws will no doubt gain financially from this pish. Reading the article, it’s a mix of pretending to care aboot Scotland, a ramping up of the use of this country for defence, and a none-too-subtle threat to us aboot our castration-complex-obsessed neighbour’s military power.
Prime Minister to launch Space Command Force.
Rumour has it that Scott and Virgil Tracy are firmly behind the plan. Alan was unavailable for comment and thought to on holiday with Troy Tempest.
Sorry – missing bee
Oneliner @ : 2.48
Your not taking this seriously are you
HA HA
@Effijy
Wrt travel plans. Might be worth checking their travel insurance if they have any?
@Robert graham
It is, I admit, hard to escape the ‘HAHA’ element until you remember the the UK has previous in offloading the potentially perilous and unsightly to far flung corners of the Empire.
Wasn’t there a suggestion that a nuclear device should be tested in Caithness?
Gruinard Island and other instances come to mind. But, hey, we’re easy meat when it comes to that sort of thing. It was Eisenhower’s insistance that Polaris be stationed closer to a population centre so that his boys could have some fun. And what did we do? Give him a free pad in Culzean Castle in perpetuity.
There is no way on this planet that the police would allow Nicola S to walk on an Independence march. Not now. How could she possibly saunter past the Manky Jaiket crew, with their shaven-headed ex-BNP minders all clench-jawed and grim looking, trying to look hard? We’ve all surely sensed the tension in the air when we pass that particular rent-a-crowd. It’s certainly exciting but there is definitely more than a hint of something waiting to kick off.
Or what about those odd, middle-aged Orange characters, who were running about like children in George Square, backwards and forwards, hitting random passers-by? The police hadn’t a clue what to do with them and totally lost control.
Or what about the sheer hatred from some of the regular BTL posters on here? I’m no prude, and I’m all for political debate, but a few need to examine their consciences. Spouting hatred, and all that “Saint Nicola of the Immaculate Deception” kind of stuff, is not clever political debate, it’s just tiresome pish.
Add all these kinds of things together, and more, and there is little chance of ever seeing Nicola S on an Independence march, whether she wants to be there or not. The police will not allow it.
Bob Mack, who mentioned the SNP doing this.
THe Snp are Scottish government, devolved or not as the case may be. Are not sovereign.
It is “WE” the Scottish people whom are sovereign.
The “Claim of Right “ came about as a safe guard during negotiations with England, in case things went wrong, the parliamentarians in England were so focused on Scotland giving into “who shall be king “what religion, and what trade deals they gained in a union, they agreed to the clam of right,
That Claim of Right still exists in both England and Scotland legally today,
It is not and was not for a parliament.
It was for it to be recognised that sovereignty lay with and in the hands of the Scottish people,
Why do we need to include the snp. The Scottish government, the English government, the tories or the man on the moon.
The claim of right does not mention any of these as lording over the claim of right.
it does not even mention we have to apply for a referendum to any government north or south of
the border, in reading the claim of right it does not specify how the sovereign people of Scotland assert their sovereignty, it simply states it’s ours, should we want it.
Marshall Adair says:
19 November, 2020 at 3:10 pm
That’s a conveneient excuse. What was her excuse five years ago?
Competence.
I suppose it depends on what metric you judge it against.
Oneliner
If you must post pish, check your facts first.
President Eisenhower was still merely General Eisenhower when, in 1945, he was gifted the lifetime use of tha aprtment at Culzean Castle. That was a full seven years before he entered the White House.
The English Broadcasting Corporation apparently having trouble loading their Scottish content , I wonder what they are up to , maybe tampering with the message oh surely not eh , they suggest you check your internet connection because their shite is having a problem getting through.
Anyone listen to Boris’s edict today on beefing up the armed forces and ‘building ships’.
Cue “13 frigates to be built at Govan!” & ‘Govan Frigate factory!”
The ‘disasterous’ Jocks must be getting restless again.
FFS
BTW, unlike the UK Govt; the Scots Govt already has its own fleet – 35 Calmac Ferries, 5 Northlink Ferries & 4 Western Ferries! The RN only has circa 60 ships & support craft.
@Clydebuilt
I think you’ll find the COVID briefings will turn out to be NS’s petard. By tying herself so closely to COVID, she now can’t delegate and lead an election or an independence campaign. The minute she does (if she does), she’ll get slaughtered in all media.
She’s made it her personal priority. She’s refused to delegate; she’s the only one that can do this (despite a lack of any relevant qualifications). So when the time comes to lead the SNP – which is after all, her ‘real’ job – she will be accused of putting independence above people’s lives. That’s something she could have and should have avoided.
Whether she’s listening to the wrong people or can’t see it for herself, it’s going to hamstring any leadership or Indy campaign.
There is, of course, the possibility it’s ‘by design’. But either way, she’s done a top notch job of shiting in the pool.
@Socrates MacSporran
And the timeline makes any difference to national obsequiousness?
Out of the 6% of those who said they would change their vote if it wasn’t Sturgeon in charge I wonder how many of them truly meant it? Quite often folk will try and game polls and not necessarily give true answers.
How many of them may have been more concerned about the showing of support for her in the poll and answered accordingly but when push comes to shove would vote Yes regardless of who is in charge?
If the figures are a true representation then we really are in a bit of a precarious position. Not enough people are aware of the most important reason for any country to take back its right to self-determination.
So much for the theory of ‘Once Yes Always Yes’ eh? Looks like someone forgot to tell the 6%, or are they all Sturgeon & Murrell’s family members? 🙂
Bob Mack, who mentioned the SNP doing this.
THe Snp are Scottish government, devolved or not as the case may be. Are not sovereign.
It is “WE” the Scottish people whom are sovereign.
The “Claim of Right “ came about as a safe guard during negotiations with England, in case things went wrong, the parliamentarians in England were so focused on Scotland giving into “who shall be king “what religion, and what trade deals they gained in a union, they agreed to the clam of right,
That Claim of Right still exists in both England and Scotland legally today,
It is not and was not for a parliament.
It was for it to be recognised that sovereignty lay with and in the hands of the Scottish people,
Why do we need to include the snp. The Scottish government, the English government, the tories or the man on the moon.
The claim of right does not mention any of these as lording over the claim of right. The devolved government didn’t even exist at that time.
it does not even mention we have to apply for a referendum to any government north or south of
the border, in reading the claim of right it does not specify how the sovereign people of Scotland assert their sovereignty, it simply states it’s ours, should we want it.
Stoker – How often did you hear people saying they were voting no in 2014 because they didn’t like Salmond. The uneducated and ignorant can’t see the difference between a country and it’s leader.
Using that Logic if you were American. You would have voted for the USA to rejoin the British Empire , because you didn’t like Trump.
Hard not to get angry at really stupid people!
Stoker @ 3:40pm:
Well, perhaps, but another way of looking at it is that these ‘Sturgeon switchers’ likely include some folk telling pollsters they would vote Yes if she went but in fact they would just switch to hating whoever the new SNP leader/apparent Yes figurehead was.
Some who “hated” Salmond and simply switched that to Sturgeon when she became leader (most likely to be hardcore unionists, I’ll grant, but some other folk who just don’t think but say they would vote No because ‘ah hate that Salmond/Sturgeon) actually ‘hate’ whoever represents the ‘idea’ that they hate i.e. independence.
For others, they might be genuine enough in saying they would vote Yes if Sturgeon departed because they imagine some SNP policies might change, although it is of course a stupid way to decide how to vote in a single-issue referendum.
At the end of the day and with all other things being equal, the poll seems to tell us that Yes is ahead and that Sturgeon’s presence as FM would probably not swing the result as things currently sit.
We could go mad trying to speculate about who’s lying to the pollsters or doesn’t even understand their own motivations, though!
“her leadership is the only reason Yes is now consistently ahead in the polls”
Been saying for a LONG time, the increase in ‘yes’ intentions is *in spite of* not because of the SNP and Ms Sturgeon.
I don’t despise her.
I don’t believe for one second she is not supportive of an indy Scotland.
However, she appears to be the world’s biggest gradualist. Unable to comprehend the mantra of striking while the iron is hot.
If we don’t wake up soon, the biggest problem we are going to face is a massive BREXIT impact which *will be used against us* – ‘why would you want further misery and complexities of independence now?’
In my view, if we had had someone like Mr Salmond (not him though, too marmite) we’d have been 60+ in the polls months and months ago. Maybe even higher.
Oneliner
As I said, do your research. The story is out there.
NS’s popularity seems greatest with people who, like her, can only operate within predefined parameters. If the mechanism to get something done doesn’t already exist, they cannot think around or beyond it, hence the s30 preoccupation. They talk of sovereignty and say they despise the British State but acquiesce to its power every time, allowing it to set the rules.
Ian Blackford will be on QT tonight. Will he have anything new to say? Will he be on the back foot spouting the usual bluster? Fraser Nelson will probably repeat the ‘life expectancy of Glaswegians’ lie resurrected by Andrew Neil of the Spectator last week and fact-checked by the National: link to archive.is.
Ian Blackford must be prepared with robust facts to counter this and all the other lies Nelson will scatter on behalf of Neil and the British State. We know how it goes, can the SNP for once be ready?
We need better minds and braver hearts than the current SNP hierarchy to lead us at this crucial time.
-Stuart Mackay at 2.24-
Okay, but it’s not the year 1981 or whatever, independence is clearly a mainstream view and not being harsh but **some** of the people you encounter on marches do, ahem, promote rather than undermine the idea that Indy supporters are a bunch of weird bearded folk.
-Jonny Martin-
You are correct, many who “hate Sturgeon” would hate Pudsey Bear if he was the SNP leader, they are not attainable voters.
-Socrates-
You are correct, Culzean was given to Eisenhower as a gift for his services in the war as a general, before he entered politics.
For me it is a question of performance and not the individual characteristics of a particular leader. So Stu’s research doesn’t surprise me. We have missed a lot of open goals over the tenure of this FM. And are now passing the ball to our own keeper all the time. We are not moving in the direction. I have a red card in my hand. She has lost the dressing room.
Repeating that we get free prescriptions and baby boxes will not be enough. We need Blackford and other SNP representatives to have robust current data at their fingertips that life expectancy, health, and education disparities are being reduced.
Alex Salmond would be able to do that and manage the Covid crisis.
@David Ferguson
What was her excuse five years ago?
The stage wasn’t big enough for her and her ego at the same time.
Thanks for this part of the questionnaire Wings. It IS vital that people separate out Independence and ruling political parties. I think most people in Scotland are becoming aware of what Westminster, and the south in general. really believe about the Scottish contribution to the Union and it is so far from reality as not to be sustainable by this country any longer. It must now be understood that the SNP has become part of the Westminster establishment and has no intention of delivering Independence .
SilverDarling @ 4:46pm:
Agreed. Baby boxes, free prescriptions, free personal care for the elderly etc are all good and laudable policies.
But we should want constant progress on society’s ills. Some of the stupid new proposals are most annoying because most of the traditional issues, e.g. poverty, are by no means ‘solved’ (and you may never solve them totally) so are still needing attention.
It’s not acceptable to go all New Labour and point back to policies from aeons before (in their case, the minimum wage was always a favourite) on the basis that ‘now you should stop asking me to do more’.
So I’ll give credit for some of the things that have been done even while saying ‘and what’s next?’.
In any case, things are afoot that might even undo much of the good stuff that we *do* have and we seem to be sleepwalking towards that outcome.
Holymacmoses @ 4:53pm:
Agree with you – people really need to be made to understand that one is a party and one is a constitutional outcome that the party is supposed to be pushing towards, and that if they stop seeming to do so, you will not get the outcome till you make them or look to another party offering it.
Socrates MacSporran
OK. If it helps in your pursuit of pedantry, for ‘And what did we do’ please read ‘And what did we do previously’
David Ferguson says: at 2:18 pm
“I’m just an anonymous bellend on the internet…”
Well I’m sure the rest of what you concisely state in your post chimes and resonates with what many others think.
So bravo and c’mon the bellends! 🙂
Caught a bit of drive time tonight with Johnny Beattie
What a shocking disgrace!!
He gave a massive piece to some crazy women letting her children go to sleep overs etc all on the justification of personal choice.
The BBC is actively giving virus & mask deniers a profile to make the numbers worse presumably to then attack the government.
I have heard them say in the past it is to provide balance which is very strange given during the war they did not give Gobbles a slot on the BBC to provide balance.
Take care out there folks you have a broadcaster trying to kill you.
I always thought Beattie a reasonable chap but this was a disgrace.
James Che. says:
19 November, 2020 at 4:05 pm
…..The “Claim of Right “ came about as a safe guard during negotiations with England…
The Claim of Right is the actually the claim of the Scottish people to have the right to depose their monarch and replace him or her with a new one. It is a right, yes, but more importantly, it is the fundamental essence of what is Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty.
It is not the Claim of Right which makes the people sovereign. The “right” that is the sovereignty, is the right established in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath where is states… Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King…”
It is the concept of people in the secular world having the power to depose a monarch which was revolutionary and unique in a medieval world where it was custom that all other monarchies were divide appointments from God. The Scottish people declared they held a power ordinarily reserved for God, and God’s man on Earth, the Pope, acknowledged that was so.
In short, it is the Declaration of Arbroath, (combined with it’s 1328 Papal Recognition) which establishes the people of Scotland are sovereign, and the subsequent Claim of Right is merely an affirmation of that right.
For the Claim of Right to recognised as extant, as it has been when Holyrood was established in 1989, and again when reaffirmed in Westminster in 2018, means that the ‘Right’ remains extant, and that in turn means that the Declaration of Arbroath and it’s Papal Recognition too remain extant. Thus, the people of Scotland are Sovereign. No ifs, no buts.
Marshall Adair The blessed St Nicola doesnt need to go on an Indy march, she could speak from a
Stage you know the sorta thing she has done to support lbgti and anti Brexit organisations, nothing wrong with doing that but she is fucking meant to be the leader of a party who’s raison d’être Is Independence for Scotland.
Many people myself included find the culture of celebrity repulsive and pathetic , a lot of it is BLAMED on young people who have limited life experience and wish they were celebs themselves
But older people also suffer from this cringing adulation which when it comes to Sturgeon it is a comfort blanket in being in with the crowd and belonging to the group ,but when people place their adulation and trust in that individual and find that they are unworthy of that trust or they have been used , that adulation usually turns to resentment and anger
The reason Sturgeon is still holding on is that she has NOT been PUBLICLY EXPOSED as the false prophet that she is ,
If and When that happens which we desperately hope for she will be outed as the betrayer of the independence dream and her and her handmaidens MUST receive the condemnation they richly deserve
I think we should be reassured by these results as it shows that Sturgeon is ONLY the FACE of the independence movement and is NOT irreplaceable , BUT we must expose her public betrayal as soon as possible to enable forward movement
Bob Mack at 1:06 p.m.
“You might think a Government who tried to put Alex in jail is fine and tolerable.”
No I don’t. As I said, I am very concerned about this issue and others. But think about the alternatives – I assume you think a Tory Scottish government would be fine and tolerable. Or a Labour Scottish government. Or more likely a coalition against independence.
“You may also think centralised control and shutting down voices with acceptable concerns are also bearable.”
No I don’t. But ask yourself – do you think any realistic alternative Scottish government is likely to be less centralising or more tolerant of dissenting voices? How do you think a Tory / Labour / Lib Dem coalition would stand up to Boris Johnson’s “reforming” agenda (i.e. centralising everything in Westminster and eventually just abolishing the Scottish Parliament)? His comments this week reveal his thinking – scrapping devolution would be the best way to stop independence.
I accept that there are many issues with the way the SNP Scottish Government has conducted itself, particularly in the last couple of years or so. But if we do not back them, we will lose for the foreseeable future any chance of independence and the opportunity to decide the sort of country we live in for ourselves.
It’s a question of priorities – for me independence comes first because that gives us the chance to decide things for ourselves. After independence, we can discuss everything else and sort things out as we see fit. That may well include changes at the top of the SNP.
No ifs ,no buts
You say Breeks?
Aye, but thon proddies back in 1690 and re affirmed in Acts of Union disagree do they not? There in lays the problem.
What has more merit in this age,the DOA 1320 orbthe AOU 1707? remembering that probabably two thirds of No voters voted on religious beliefs ie Queen Lizzie of German Presbyterian Lutheran ideology.
Fair auld conundrum we’re in eh!
The curse of Scotland has always been what school you went to.Until that’s of no concern then will you see no more the likes of Mankie Jaiket man and friends of the Lousey Tavern.
Just my humble opinion and the English luv that split as it makes it easy for them.
Rev, may I correct you on two things here.
1 You say the Yes lead is down to covid, but Yes % was 50/51% in January before covid19 and has risen since then.
2 lots of people hate her irrationally. Some do, they hate her for being snp leader, they hate her for being a woman. But they are the lunatic minority. Most people as poll after poll shows Nicola Sturgeon is without doubt been rated the best and most impressive leader during covid19 crisis.
Those are the facts.
C Griffith’s…
Sure NS scores well in those surveys, but you’re comparing her “ability” and “competence” with the likes of the Scottish Labour guy, Truth Davidson, somebody Rennie, and not forgetting the great buffoon himself, Doris Gym-stain.
So, basically, people are being asked to express a preference between weevil infested ship’s biscuit, sauerkraut, roast guga, sheep’s eyeballs and putrified Greenland shark.
Just because sheep’s eyeballs come top in the survey, doesn’t make the prospect of sitting down to a plate of them any less attractive.
So according to STV news the IFS, has dug deep into Johnson’s spending figures for the MoD of £16.5 million pounds, and reading between the lines the IFS has found that the actually spending figure is closer to £7 billion pounds over four years and not the £16.5 billion pounds as promised by Johnson.
Am I surprised at this deception by Johnson and his cabinet, not in the slightest, on the funding of the project its unclear where the cash will come from.
@Ayrshire Rob,
Claim of Right was used by Protestant Lords to choose another King over James.
@TD @18:02
You’ll understand that people may hold understandable concerns that the current SNP leadership. For example, we know they can’t be straight with their own members – to the extent they seem to have conspired to jail their ex-leader. So do you think it’s possible that they may not be straight on their desire for independence?
If you ‘hold your nose’ and vote for them come whatever, how would you feel if you discovered you had voted to put the foxes in the henhouse for the next five years? All the time they need to finish the job they’ve started.
They’ve shown you what they are, but you’ll support them anyway? They’re not incompetent (not totally, anyway), but they have an agenda and you risk empowering them.
I, for one, couldn’t do that. I would need certain assurances first.
Blackford on BBCQT tonight also British nationalist Fraser Nelson.
1971Thistle at 6:31 p.m.
So who do you want as a realistic alternative to the SNP, capable of driving forward with independence? How will you feel if you let a unionist coalition into power?
Stuart,
So you did’nt ask the question I requested a while back.
Namely, “On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you hate that Alic Samin”. 10 being, I’d like to bury a hachet in his heid, metaphorically of course.
Or, is that the second question.???
I think there is very little chance of a Unionist coalition in May. I think the SNP overall majority has already gone. So the question remains will the FM do badly enough to be removed. I hope so. A more conciliatory and mature approach is needed to integrate all parts of Scotland. Multiplication rather than division. And get us over the Indy line. We have said leaders currently in WM. Open the doors NEC.
@TD @18:46
That’s a different version of the same question. You haven’t addressed the ‘fox in the henhouse’ scenario – you just dismiss it as a risk worth taking.
I accept the risk of unionists – that’s clear and open. I fear the enemy within much more. Especially those that say they will pursue independence – but don’t; who promise to be open, but aren’t.
If ‘hold your nose and hope for the best’ is all there is after this time, it’s damning
1971Thistle at 7.07 pm
“That’s a different version of the same question”
So what’s the answer? I’ll answer your point. Would I accept the “fox in the henhouse” if that is the price for obtaining independence? Yes, because we can get rid of the fox later.
When we achieve independence are we likely to have a perfect state from day one? No, but at least we will then be in a position to start sorting it out. If we don’t achieve independence…
As I think about it, I find myself wondering this: Are you prepared to sacrifice independence because some people in the Scottish Government behaved badly and you don’t like some policies of the SNP?
@1971Thistle
‘Those that say they will pursue independence – but don’t, who promise to be open, but aren’t.’
Career nationalists – are damning us all.
Sturgeon: The Wicked Witch of the Wheesht!
Aye Bob Mack
That went well didn’t it? A couple o decades later they made sure Scotland would be forever consumed by religious bigotry and 330+ years later, on and on it goes.
Where did it say in DOA 1320 anything to do with Catholics and Protestants? But here we are 330+ years later from that and re-affirmed in 1707 in articles 1 and 2 of a treaty forever cursing Scotland to religious perpetuity .no papes will ever be allowed the crown.
There in black and white.
I don’t think the auld boys back then,thon lords thought their declaration would inflict that on us- bless.
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
I see that they’re having an extra meeting tomorrow in private .
The Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints , MeetingDate 15th Meeting, Friday 20 November 2020 Location : This is a virtual meeting.The Committee will next meet on Friday 20 November at 10.15am in private to consider its work programme and review the evidence it heard on 17 November 2020.
Public papers for the meeting ,
link to parliament.scot
Link to the Official Report from Tuesday’s meeting ,
link to parliament.scot
“ I would love to be a fly on the wall at tomorrow’s meeting “ after the fiasco of Tuesday’s meeting when the Lord Advocate basically refused to answer most of the questions put to him .
@MaggieC
Interesting thanks for the update. Much appreciated.
AYRSHIRE ROB says:
19 November, 2020 at 6:07 pm
No ifs ,no buts
You say Breeks?
Aye, but thon proddies back in 1690 and re affirmed in Acts of Union disagree do they not? There in lays the problem….
Bob Mack is right.
Scotland’s James VII was deemed to have abandoned the Scottish throne, and it was the Claim of Right which was used to remove him as Scotland’s king.
@TD @19.07
“some people in the Scottish Government behaved badly”.
Well, that’s one way of describing the situation. Thankfully none of them are in a position of power, eh?
1971Thistle at 7.52 pm
I note that you have not answered my questions.
Why is it taking so long for the SNP to actively seek independence via a referendum?
They want to be in control of what comes after.
The indyref1 excitement about new ways of running our country is for the past, that’s not what the SNP want.
They want the same pro-austere (however veiled), pseudo-capitalist, neo-liberal world view as prevails elsewhere, to prevail in Scotland.
So, accumulate more soft voters looking for a wee-bit-tartan status quo – and who’ll happily let the SNP just run whatever policies suit them. Shedding long-term supporters who harbour more radical dreams? Small change!
Then a referendum, with a victory, and a Growth Commission informed negotiation? What’s to stop it?
A people’s referendum, not called for by the SNP, but forced by the Yes movement – potentially taking moral and democratic authority for a referendum back into the hands of the Yes movement at large. Opening up a post referendum negotiation team and positions to occupancy from a much broader spread of opinion.
Is that why they fought against Keating’s People’s Action on S30?
SNP working for the status quo to get the facts on the ground early for Scotland’s new future; same as the old future?
Don’t get fooled again (?)
Mibbie you aren’t getting my point?
Never said Bob was wrong. They used a tool they had, not to free Scotland but to remove a tyrant that had supposedly let them down, history written by? ,it was most likely financial ,like never got enough underhanded free reign to utilise the slave trade among other things most probably,and they never had enough ,lands,titles and lassies.
Never the less of that what they did was perpetually put you,me and the rest of Scotland in a never ending cycle of division by agreeing to articles of union . The same articles of union you keep harping on about to get ripped up.
So were there protestant lords good men or the other side of the sorry affair back then?
It was religion then and it was religion in 2014 that cost our independence Imho.
No other country that gained their independence gave a shit ever about Lizzie or Westminster. Our issue we’re not far enough away.
Same old,same old.Thats what I’m saying.
Claim of right will mean fuck all to Westminster because therin lies the power.
@TD @19:52
I wouldn’t vote for someone whose motivation towards Indy is questionable, to say the least. That includes the current leadership of the SNP, or “some people in the Scottish Government” as you call them.
I think they could do more damage than any flimsy Unionist coalition.
Better?
@TD @19:52
Nor would I vote for a party led by liars that tried to throw their former leader under a bus, erase his name from SNP history and then pretend the voters are stupid.
Or “some people in the Scottish Government” as you call them.
I hope that’s suitably unambiguous?
Anyone who thinks NS is advancing our Cause of Independence is a fucking brammer, man.
Full fucking StoP.
1971Thistle at 8.20 pm
OK – you will not vote SNP. So if everyone did what you are going to do, how do you think we will achieve independence? Or is it that you will not vote SNP but that you hope sufficient other people do?
I’m genuinely curious to understand how people who share your views believe independence can be achieved any time soon.
I think that support for independence and the SNP would sky-rocket if Nicola Sturgeon was replaced with someone who is willing to stand up for Scotland and fight for independence with the spirit of our ancestors.
The long list of cons to her leadership grows by the day while any pros seem to me to be based entirely on appearances and not substance. Of most concern is her complete lack of understanding of economics and ecology, and the necessary transformative knowledge to lead Scotland to a greener and brighter future.
@TD and 1971Thistle
You are both knocking lumps out of each other. Sturgeons Scotland in view. Division over common purpose. Time she went. And I get the immoral case against Salmond more than most. And it’s not Ok to brush this under the carpet. But you have to believe in the Judiciary eventually. Justice will be served the people demand it.
The SNP are not the problem. The people in charge of the SNP are the problem.
Much like a country. Leaders come and go, but the country remains. Nicola is not the SNP. So you vote SNP as if you are voting for Scotland. I am not leaving the SNP. Nicola will not be the leader much longer.
I vote for what’s best for Scotland. So SNP 1 and ISP 2 , if they get their act together.
I agree, Thistle. As long as Sturgeon and her gang are there, I simply can’t vote for the SNP.
No matter what the reasons, no matter how angry with him she was, no matter what she might think he’d done to deserve it, there’s literally no excuse for throwing Salmond under that sort of bus.
That’s all personal opinion, subjective. Others might not agree or be willing to forget. Fair enough.
Here’s a more objective judgement though; it’d be an incredibly stupid thing to do. Someone with intelligence and the ability to think ahead just wouldn’t do that.
Every argument for getting behind the SNP, putting aside your opinion on Plan A, for the good of the cause, etc., they all break down on that point. There’s literally nothing they could say or do that would change my opinion on it – they need to go or I’ll never vote for them, no matter what.
And that’s where I am. I don’t think I’m alone in that.
There’s a good chance she’ll be forced to go though which would save a lot of turmoil.
TD, I’ve read a few of your senseless comments today. You seem unable to fathom the possibility that she will be forced to depart office and since she lied to parliament that’s actually what you should expect.
Needless to say, if she does leave, your emotive little jibes are completely redundant.
If she stays it just means she’s slightly more scandalous than any of us thought, which reinforces the argument for refusing to vote for her.
@ Saffron Robe says: @8.34
The long list of cons to her leadership grows by the day while any pros seem to me to be based entirely on appearances and not substance. Of most concern is her complete lack of understanding of economics and ecology, and the necessary transformative knowledge to lead Scotland to a greener and brighter future.
Concur
Do people not realise that if the SNP don’t get a majority then the games a bogey. I have no time for Nicola, but my problem with her is minor compared to my problem with the British state.
Big Jock
I’m afraid the SNP is the problem. Leadership change, then fine, until then, they wont get my and my +20 votes in May.
Their vote will drop dramatically. Best prepare yourself.
@Big Jock
She is acting for the British state under the guise of “Believing that Scotland should be independent” that’s her not trying to gain or working towards that goal she just believes it.
@Big Jock
The game is already a bogey. Called by Stu weeks ago using the same language. Have you not been reading. I will pay out myself if the SNP get a overall majority. And you are OK with an innocent man being fitted up with a custodial sentence?. Thats your Scotland not mine.
Let’s face it folks – AS took us as far as he could (and sorry, there’s no coming back for him – bastards done their job well – maybe once we are Independent there will be a place for him) the SNP drove hard initially, but they’re a ‘civilian army’ in this war – and they’re now rumbled.
It’s back to the drawing board for at least ten years.
Who will stand up? – who will stand for the Seats going forward.
I’m an idiot – fine – but I am seriously considering standing in May – if at the very least, to dislodge the SNP ‘useless’ MSP in my area.
And I no longer much care if a Unionist gets in because of it. Maybe it’s the wake up call we all need. Sometimes you need to leave the bags on the plane to let the Boss know you’re pissed off and under-stafffed.
@Big Jock 8.41 & 8.58pm
As other have already pointed out, the games a bogey even if the SNP DO get a majority, because they’re too chickenshit to do anything with it. For as long as they remain wedded to having no Plan B and asking for permission it’s immaterial whether they have 51% or 71% or 91%.
Voting SNP 1 & 2 is strictly for unreasoning loyalists: what is it you and your ilk find so difficult to understand? If the leadership, the representatives, activists and members really wanted what was best for Scotland they’d have ensured we weren’t in this situation of limbo.
It’s probably already too late to do anything before next May’s Holyrood election, so we might was well plan for the longer term. Only a political earthquake, or some kind of palace coup inside the SNP to rid them of the current deeply ineffectual leadership and replace them with those who are actually up for prioritising indy, can save us now.
I am afraid I can’t agree.
If the SNP lose their majority then there will be no coming back. If they get a majority and don’t use it. It’s still a recognised majority for a new leader once we dethrone Nicola.
How does the SNP not getting a majority advance our cause? It doesn’t! We need to use our heads here.
I am angry at Nicola. I hate what she has done to my party.I despise her husband.
But Scotland comes first. Whatever it takes to destroy the British state. That’s my prerogative.
In 10 years Scotland will be fully assimilated into the one nation Britain.
Talk of a rebuild is nonsense. The Tories will go for the jugular of a weakened government at Holyrood.
For the record. I will be voting ISP on my second vote. I am not an SNP loyalist. What I recognise is the folly of having a minority government in Holyrood.
It will end the right to call a referendum. It will end Holyrood and it will end Scotland.
Big Jock…
“once we dethrone Nicola”.
How, given your scenario of being returned with a majority, do you propose doing that?
Thatcher’s mistake was being surrounded by men in grey suits with long knives.
Sturgeon has no such issue there and, if returned, will be dug in like the proverbial Trossachs tick.
The only way you’ll get her out is for that which has so far been kept from the public eye being exposed.
But so long as she remains of use to the British State, and keeps kicking the IndyRef2 can down the road whilst simultaneously overseeing division in the rank and file, she’ll be protected.
Big Jock
Spineless Nations get what they deserve.
That said, it is possible to come back from 3-1 down to win.
We have had 300 years of this pish, ten is nothing and I do not believe we are ‘that’ assimilated – actually, when you speak with the youth of today it is very much the opposite – maybe we need to adopt a Chinese sense of patience, but know this, Unless NS and her cohort (lock stop) step down (v unlikely) the SNP is a dead, dead, dead, fucking duck as far as Scotlands Independence is concerned.
As a fucking Dodo.
Time for the Great Scottish Reset!
@Big Jock 9.36pm
What kind of defeatist thinks that it’s all over if the SNP doesn’t get a majority? There is only a pro-indy majority now due to the Greens. It does seem like the SNP are on course for a majority anyway, which isn’t necessarily because people love Nicola or the woke agenda, it’s in spite of it and attributable more to the woeful state of the opposition, brexit and Covid.
It’s a pro-indy majority that matters, NOT an SNP majority. Many of us would actively prefer the SNP not having a majority in their own right: I’d actually like them beholden to smaller pro-indy parties – tho’ I fear it may already be too late for 2021. Buying into the concept that it only counts if the SNP are in charge plays into the hands of the British nationalists.
The only thing you’re doing with your head is sticking it firmly in the sand.
Scotland does come first, not the SNP.
You and too many others appear to have forgotten that.
Destroying the British state isn’t going to happen unless the SNP change policy: that’ll only happen 2 ways, by the membership booting the current leadership out, or by the electorate voting for a real independence party.
I hate to say it Stu, but Sturgeon isn’t going anywhere soon….
I had high hopes that the misleading of parliament might end her, but I now think she will successfully squirm free, and will almost certainly still be im role past May.
Do you have anything to give us any hope of change, or will things with this inquiry just peter out….
As usual a bit o/t
A Tory MSP asked what I believe for once was a relevant question particularly in the present circumstances , he asked on behalf of a constituent about the wide spread use of a DNR consent forms in our NHS ,
Do Not Resuscitate for those not familiar with the practice .
I remember a few weeks back my wife made the same comment when something came up on the TV she said that’s happened to you meaning yours truly, she said it happens every time you have been close to the Exit door meaning close to popping yer clogs pal , three times in the past 10 years bob has been confirmed as being on his last trip, she only remembered the last time because apparently I was being urged to sign the form and she intervened because I was out of it on morphene so wouldn’t have known what I would be consenting to ,
I just wondered how widespread this particular little gem is and how often it’s being offered and used and if anyone here has Had any similar experience of DNR that’s never discussed
Can anyone explain to me the logic of the SNP actively opposing Martin Keatings court case about the right of the Scottish people to use their sovereignty to hold a referendum should they choose? Something they should believe in.
Give me a solid explanation and I will listen.
More austerity cuts programmed as Boris announces that another £16 billion to be spent over the next four years on defence of the realm.
Cutting benefits, cutting investment, cutting MHS spending – suck it up folks. Suck it up.
Andy. I am someone who is shrewd enough recognise. That to WM , the SNP are the independence movement. I know that’s not the case, but perception is what drives momentum.
We already have a minority SNP government. The Tories have done nothing but mention that over and over again. If 51% of Scotland doesn’t vote SNP that will be another angle.
But let’s say the SNP end up with another minority with the Greens in May. How will you feel? Like we did in 2017 when all those Tories were returned. Winning but losing at the same time.
Do you think the Brits are going to sit still, while we sort out our movement. Do what you want , but don’t expect me to agree.
It’s perception that is key to the electorate,the British state a d the outside world.
It will be the outside world we will be appealing to remember.
Bob Mack – No.
Willie – That money will be diverted – to deal with civilians who dare to oppose the government of the day. They are pre-empting civil unrest.
SNP and Martin Keatings.
They are afraid he wins and they would need to start being independent
and they are afraid they might lose it and paying members unwilling to
wait on Boris developing morals.
If you believe the SNP are acting in good faith (and many are, in fairness) – then their current strategy – as I understand it – is that the hard knocks of Brexit, under a Westminster Tory Government, will be so brutal to Scotland, that those still unconvinced about the need for Indy, will miraculously convert to Yes…
If that is the case, and if you follow that logic to its conclusion, then it needs to be as brutal as possible, in as short a time period as possible – an SNP majority continuing to offset – or attempt to offset the Tory damage (which will be so much harder to do after the Power Grab) – merely prolongs the agony.
Unless there is a fundamental change in direction by the SNP at their conference – changing to making Holyrood a Plebiscite election – I personally can see almost no point in voting for them any more.
The argument that if they are not elected – they are the ONLY party, or people, who can politically represent the democratic desire for Indy is risible – even the dimmest of voters would grasp the concept – and historically nearly every single country that gained Indy – had to form a second party to pursue it… when the first one got compromised.
The only avenue to save Scotland, and provide voters, and indeed some SNP politicians who agree with the above reasoning – some democratic opportunity to vote for definitive change – will be with Independent Candidates, such as (but not exclusively) the author of the above article and her party.
By the same token, the only way now, that I can see, that will force the SNP to adopt this policy, is if there are electable Independent Candidates in place.
For those who think I’m being disloyal to the cause of Indy and/or the SNP – I’ve thought this way for several years now, and at each election, held my nose and voted SNP to give them one more chance, one more mandate.
There is no more time for that now, not with Brexit 40 days away. They’ve used up all the rope and its piss or get off the pot time.
One more thought – the argument against calling a Second Indy Ref was always that if it was lost a second time – it would be game over for the foreseeable.
No such pressures surround a plebiscite election – there will be another one along in 4 years time.
Oliver Mundell resigns.
That’s an awfy shame that is it no.
@ Ayrshire Rob: sadly O Mundell has only resigned from the “Front bench”, not from the party nor his salaried seat.
So, it looks like most of us are going to be forced to wait for the Oxford vaccine. That’s the one the crooked Tories have a vested interest in.
The rest of Europe, the US, and the first world will have their whole populations vaccinated by the middle of February, but we are “guided by the science” so we’ll need to wait.
Rest assured, Nicola won’t skip a beat. She’ll sign right up for waiting, just as she signed up for “herd immunity” and all the other crap Westminster talked her into.
Britain has the second worst record in the world on Coronavirus. And, for the avoidance of doubt, Britain includes Scotland.
Seriously, could we have worse leaders?
You need to keep up wae stuff Hatuey.
We’re getting a million doses of the Pfizer one in next few weeks.Lets see.
You need to learn to read, AYRSHIRE ROB – “most of us”.
Good luck waiting on Boris to give you your share of the Pfizer vaccine.
The 1st million doses are for mostly old and vurnable .What you worried about? Were you not one touting herd and I’ll no be taking any vaccine mob, naw?
2nd worst record in world.
Lol
@AYRSHIRE ROB
Where from E-Bay?
Hatuey at 8.51 pm
“You seem unable to fathom the possibility that she will be forced to depart office”
No, that is exactly what I am concerned about. If that happens, what do you think the impact on the SNP at the election will be? What do you think the impact on independence will be? My fear if she is removed from office is that the SNP will fail to win a majority and independence will be shelved for many years. It might even fade away altogether. That is why if we really want independence, we need to get behind her and not encourage those who would love to bring her down just as campaigning for the election gets going. Do we want independence or do we, like Thistle1971 apparently does, find the prospect of voting for the SNP so repulsive that we are prepared to sacrifice independence for the foreseeable future? I am not prepared to indulge any disappointment I might have with Nicola Sturgeon by sacrificing the best chance of independence we are likely to get for decades.
I am fascinated that you refer to my “emotional little jibes”. I would be really intrigued to know which of my comments fall into that category. Please enlighten me.
ROB, we weren’t discussing who the hypothetical million doses were for. And I have no idea why you want to discuss it now.
There isn’t a day goes by on here where I don’t criticise Boris and Sturgeon for trying to impose that “herd immunity” crap on us. If you scroll up you’ll see at least 1 example of that.
I’ve never said anything to suggest I wouldn’t take the vaccine. And the only reason we are discussing anything is because I suggested they’d keep us waiting for the vaccine – hardly something an anti-vaxxer would complain about, is it?
Duh!
-Hatuey-
The worst combination of politicians there has ever been, but it’ll get worse: Prince Charles will be head of state soon
TD, I’m not a shrink but I am happy to explain why I think your fears are irrational.
First of all, the article Wings has posted here which we are commenting on suggests Sturgeon leaving won’t make a bit of difference. The article is evidence based. I recommend reading it.
Secondly, everything suggests that Sturgeon is going to be damaged goods by the time the election comes along. If you had better insights you’d be arguing that it’s in the SNP’s interests to ditch her and go into the election with someone that isn’t tainted.
You can be sure the Tories and MSM will be preparing to milk a few things in the run up to the election if Sturgeon stays. I think you should be worried about that.
A Person, that’s the funniest part of all. The Royals are supposed to put a stamp of respectability on the antics of “our” politicians.
I’m struggling not to laugh as I type. Think about that… it isn’t just a bunch of crooked politicians we are dealing with, no, it’s “the crown”.
Sturgeon aint going anywhere.
She will still be leader in May, and possibly for a decade to come.
I dont think she will be pinned by the Salmond Inquiry. Not even close. Water off a ducks back.
@ Daisy who wrote about “the hard knocks of Brexit, under a Westminster Tory Government, will be so brutal to Scotland”,
What type of person would consciously lead anybody, never mind an entire nation, into a situation guaranteed to feature brutal hard knocks, thus punishing pre-Brexit Yes voters?
And do so, when the nation had already voted against this brutal situation?
I think it’s too late to have a leadership contest now. Had you asked me in September , then yes.
There simply is not the time for a new leader to bed in , or for a campaign. So we are stuck with Nicola , unless she is found to have broken the ministerial code.
So there is nothing we can do. The reality is. We are in a shit place. But do we want to make to compound it by being fatalistic? Fatalists demand you lose everything in order to make a point or start again.
We don’t have the luxury of time. We don’t have time to replace the SNP. The wagons are being circled as we speak. Whatever else happens, we must have an SNP majority in 2021.
What we do after that, is up to the movement.
Even if Sturgeon is found to have broken the ministerial code, she will stay.
She’s going nowhere anytime soon.
Facundo @11.34pm
Then why hide all the evidence ?
And decline the interviews ?
I used to be a sturgeon ultra-loyalist. Employing the guy who wrote ‘THE VOW’, giving the anti-independence media £3 million quid ……for no return, sneakily opposing martin keating’s legal challenge and giving unqualified support to rhiannon spears made me change my mind.
P.S. I am one of the remaining SNP members who thinks alyn “daddy bear” smith should bear ( no pun intended)his own legal costs. Everyone else in the SNP had to….even the entirely innocent.
Hatuey
First, “emotional” and “irrational” are not interchangeable terms.
Second, I have read the article. The article cites polling which asks people what effect they think certain events will have on the way they vote. The answers to such questions are notoriously unreliable because the effect that people think will apply to them often turns out not to happen. People are not good predictors of their own reaction when things do actually happen. Furthermore, the poll does not ask about the circumstance which might result in Sturgeon being removed from office. I think it likely that if her own party turned on her, as some people seem to think it should, voters would not be impressed.
Third, lets agree that Sturgeon should go. The question is when. My view is that if she goes before the election, it is unlikely that a replacement will be appointed in time to go on to win the election. After all, there is no sign of her voluntarily going at present so it would be well into next year – close to the election probably – before she could be brought down. If that happens, say in April, then the independence cause is screwed. And remember that with the general voting public, who do not spend their time on Wings, she is perceived well and is a considerable asset.
Weighing everything up, I would suggest that it is those of you who want her removed this side of an election who are both emotional and irrational.
Big Jock 11.39pm sums up the current situation very accurately. Independence has to come first and sorting out the party has to wait until after May.
Astonished @11.49
It’s not that I don’t think she’s guilty, I just can’t see her going.
She will wriggle free, and will still be at the helm in May and beyond.
A true smoking gun is required to pin her, but I can’t see that yet. Stu and others may have something up their sleeves, but as things stand, there doesn’t appear to be enough to force her resignation before May.
P.s. follow me on twitter.
TD – You forgot fatalistic as well.
Much as it pains me.Joe public haven’t the first clue that the movement are furious at Nicola. So why risk her perceived reputation and the election, just because we are angry.
The rational thing to do. Is to accept where we are, what is achievable and what helps our cause.
Right now we can’t seriously get a new leader before May. As for the cause of independence. It requires compromise and doing what is necessary, not what is perceived to be morally correct. In the dirty world of politics, some things are necessary to win the day.
@ Facundo Savala
GRA is the smoking gun a Women is an Adult Human Female is what will see her demise
@
ben madigan says:
19 November, 2020 at 11:36 pm
@ Daisy who wrote about “the hard knocks of Brexit, under a Westminster Tory Government, will be so brutal to Scotland”,
What type of person would consciously lead anybody, never mind an entire nation, into a situation guaranteed to feature brutal hard knocks, thus punishing pre-Brexit Yes voters?
And do so, when the nation had already voted against this brutal situation?
Reply –
When Pete Wishart was one of the first to run the idea up the flag poll the policy of ‘wheesht for Indy’ and that we needed to let the ‘terms of Brexit’ become known before we even attempted to go for IR2 – I went along to the Constituency meet to see if John Swinney would distance himself from that sentiment…
The area had just lost a council election in Pitlochry – so in fairness to them they were all exhausted – however – John Swinney Fully backed Pete Wishart on this – and spoke of voters in the area having forgotten just how bad things were under Thatcher.
It is the SNP who are pushing this as policy – I’m just pointing out that if you follow their logic to its end conclusion – mitigating the brutality – if it is the brutality that you think will change No voters to Yes – is just prolonging the agony.
Further to that, if in the process of doing this, you also engage in cronyism and start filling party jobs and political seats with wives, cousins, those and such as those, in the place of well qualified local candidates – well, you end up with the Scottish Branch of New Labour in its New SNP form – valid political representation promoting Indy becomes even further out of reach.
@Big Jock
I can’t believe your still punting this line. Its OK to send an innocent man to jail in the cause of Indy. You don’t get it and never will. Indy is about the people and the people won’t stand for corruption.
Great result for the Tories and Unionists in Clackmaannanshire East by election, Tories hold with 51% and a 9% rise in voteshare over the SNP with the Labour vote down 12% and Labour voters tactically voting Tory to beat the SNP
link to twitter.com
Sorting out the party can at least begin with the election of a new SNP NEC.
It’s in the hands of delegates to conference.
Some NEC members who were flying under the radar now have to submit themselves for re-election.
Their divisive behaviour has been rumbled by the rank and file membership and they need to be emptied out and replaced by those who will put independence back at the top of SNP priorities.
Until then can we just hang fire on the hostilities and give internal politics a chance to re-align and direct our energies positively.
@Rick H Johnston
Good post! Conciliatory exactly whats needed. But replace the FM to conclude your argument.
Has anyone noticed the curious incident of the FM’s husband who didn’t tweet for a week?
Facundo Savala says:
19 November, 2020 at 11:49 pm
Even if Sturgeon is found to have broken the ministerial code, she will stay.
She’s going nowhere anytime soon.
Then she will stay with all the integrity of Donald Trump.
@Breeks
Good laugh at that one. She is more Trumpian than Trump. Of course I wrote years ago. The Scottish ambassador to Scotland was denied the privilege of representing us. Another in a long line of mistakes by the FM.
Breeks, thank you for defining what I was struggling to get across, much appreciated.
@HYUFD 12;16am
An early report there from the final whistle and only to be expected from our esteemed Statto – Mr Lightning himself.
What we are dying to know, is did they get any more than half the six thousand odd electorate to turn out – that would be one for the record books.
51% of the turnout is a result – on the other hand 51% of around 3000, is about 1500 souls. I’ll resist the urge to say ‘puir wee sowels’, but…oh wait, I just did.
What’s that..HYFUD? This just in – Denis Coyne: 1226 votes!
Ah well, maybe a record next time – Will he be switching on the Xmas lights? Who can say, if he does it will be their biggest turnout yet – either way, there will be plenty of car door slamming in the streets of Clacks East after that gritty performance.
Let’s take a look at fan-favourite Steven Leitch: 766!
The SNP’s lone striker up front…I’m with you on that HYUFD, that is just risible – He’ll be disappointed with himself there and the manager won’t be happy.
I think we expected them to have thrown off the injury problems, but the missimg spine seems to be plaguing him again this year.
Looking through the field and Caroline Hunter for Labour managed fewer than her Facebook friends, at 195…
Well, to be honest HYUFD, I think they’ve lost the dressing room there, without a change of manager and direction, it’s looking grim for next season.
Marion Robertson pushing Caroline hard for the Nae Mates title and the Greens slump back to the dressing room on 139.
I think there is still some potential there, if she can pick up a few more Likes – perhaps a change of profile picture, or an inspirational quote.
Finally, how did Jim Hay do for the Lib Dems? Yes, yes, confirmed…69 – Nice!
Big round of applause for Clacks East there – a cold day in lockdown, but they got right out there and collectively delivered democracy for the vast majority who couldn’t be arsed.
Well what can we say, I think perhaps a game for the purists there and I think we can all agree HYUFD – Man of the Match has to be Jim Hay – What a score! To hold out like that and defend hard against the one vote which would have catapulted him into obscurity.
He picks up the well deserved Man of the Match Award – a meal for two – Jim, you absolute Legend!
Back to you, HYUFD…
Sturgeon tweets
Nicola Sturgeon
@NicolaSturgeon
· 12h
This by @AndrewWilson on the case for independence – and the paucity of the case against – is excellent and well worth a read.
Tim Rideout counters
No it isn’t. It is complete drivel. Why would we ever enter negotiations offering money towards the UK national savings?
He is referring to the annual solidarity payments to England which Wilson proposes
Have THE SNP and WILSON LOST the plot Sturgeon AGREES with this shite even though conference voted AGAINST it , she is definitely out to SABOTAGE indy
-Hatuey at 11.33-
Joking aside Charles coming to the throne might be a good thing for the independence movement. Franz Josef was the revered emperor of Austria for sixty-eight years, but shortly after his death the whole thing collapsed. It could happen here.
I’m a republican, but there’s no denying Queen Elizabeth conducts herself like… well, a Queen. Sober, serious, carrying the aura of WW2, and been there for as long as anyone under the age of eighty can remember. When she passes, which crudely can’t be very far away, that’ll be a real shock to folk. A splash of cold water. You’re left with a head of state is a man who has been recorded pretending to be a tampon, was friends with Saville and is known to smash up bathrooms when he can’t get his way. He just hasn’t got it. Lifelong unionists will be forced to confront the fact that “Britain” has come to mean fat bastard Johnson, Piers Morgan and Brexit- not a pretty sight.
Solidarity payments to England ffs that’s just mental. Mental. If we’re independent we’ve no financial connections (save, for example, bridges crossing the border or similar trivial things). We wouldn’t get money from England, nor them from us. Are they trying to make it that Indy is less independent than at present?
Almost makes you wonder, have the British Establishment accepted Indy is likely in the medium term and have decided it would be better to turn Scotland into a vassal state?
link to twitter.com
Why does this make me feel like jumping in front of a bus?
If there was any justice in the world, Nicola would be picking her books off the trolley pushed around by Ronnie Barker in Porridge.
-Iain Mhor-
Is that a surprising result? Looks like a large story win. I know Clacks East is quite rural and posh (Dollar?) but by that margin? Interesting/ worrying.
A Person says:
20 November, 2020 at 3:52 am
Solidarity payments to England ffs that’s just mental. Mental…
Speechless.
-Breeks-
Sturgeon doing the interview is, to be fair, harmless fluff, but the comments…. ffs… she’s a bloody politician, not a labradoodle puppy… what kind of weirdo loves a politician that much? All rainbows and photos of themselves wearing masks. “Can you imagine Johnson reading a book” aye probably tbh he is an expert classicist I’ll give him that.
One thought struck me: the people replying to that are unrepresentative of the Scottish public. They’re West End of Glasgow/ South side of Edinburgh pretentious tools. I don’t mean “because they have libraries”, I’m never out a book (currently on a biography of a Scottish statesman, Lord Haldane) you ought to see my bookshelves. I just… if I was NS I’d be mildly uncomfortable that folk like that were my biggest fans. Hillary Clinton vibes, no?
Have just started watching The Crown from the start.
Interesting stuff.
The way Scotland is portrayed and spoken about, it’s as if it’s a kind of nirvana for these people.
I’ve never had the slightest interest in any of them but seeing how Liz was brought up, her awareness of constitutional niceties (in lieu of a ‘normal’ education), it’s all the more remarkable that she was ‘overheard’ expressing concern about the referendum when leaving that church. In layman’s terms, she must’ve known she was bang out of order.
A friend pointed out that Liz now has less than four years to go to become the longest serving monarch of all time. (Current champion is Louis XIV) Of course, Scotland going independent would rather scupper that for one, wouldn’t it?
At last! A poll that just simply asks if who the leader of the SNP matters to voting intention on constitutional issues – I actually expected a more 50-50 split to tell the truth, so this is a fascinating result. Will it quiet the protests of ‘wheesht, the polls are good, so dont say anything bad about Nicola’?
I think that graph shows more simply and clearly (than any long article on the subject) exactly how little the SNP have changed minds on independence – their ‘strategy’ of don’t scare the horses does not work – their neoliberal agenda convinces no one, their bending over backwards to accommodate the British establishment convinces no one, their wait for someone else to do it convinces no one, their lack of any strategy convinces no one,,, I could go on forever.
This, along with the poll that shows the majority of scots (59%) think we should have a new currency – our own currency – on independence, is beginning to show that the SNP leadership is very much out of alignment with the Scottish people. That poll question – I’ll get a link – does state in the question its current SNP policy, which it is, but some may have just accepted it on that basis – but that still means that they don’t listen to the SNP leadership who still quote that neoliberal exercise in failure The Growth Commission Report.
I still don’t think it fair that you threw in a random nonsense question into a poll, Stu, totally out of context, about the sun going round the earth, and expect to get sense back. Which does raise the question of how much influence the general topic of the survey has on how much people pay attention. If you sent out a survey on general physics questions you’d get a different result I bet. People aren’t idiots, they just don’t always pay attention – which makes them vulnerable (more so, because we all are) to propaganda.
Blackford on QT last night was appalling.
He sat quiet while the Tory ran of a series of
insulting and unqualified lies.
Sod manners and letting overs speak when you are being attacked.
He suggested Scotland’s Education was a disgrace.
How about schools in England closing early on Fridays
as they can’t afford to stay open?
How about English Students leaving Uni with £40K of debt while we offer free access
to help close the attainment gap and support higher paid jobs.
How about 95% of our kids leaving school to a positive destination.
On the answer to us having terrible poverty how about the Tories have put more kids in poverty than
any other government in history. How about us paying the Bedroom tax for the disabled that the Tories are casting into poverty.
He mention our failing NHS?
We out perform England year after year?
We are performing better with Civid
We pay our NHS workers better than England.
How about England charging foreign NHS works
a bill of £1,200 for working here risking their lives.
Mid Staffs Hospital having 70 needless child deaths
Compare that to your slur on the new Queen Betty Hospital.
Does Blackford not know these things?
Is he afraid to stand up and fight for us?
How does he expect to turn No voters if he lets these lies
appear to be correct?
Pathetic !
Scrolling through this morning and something catches my eye. Is this the first post with yoons shilling for Twitter followers in the comments?
Andrew Wilson’s article in the spectator ( a neoliberal mouthpiece) makes me believe more and more that post Indy deals are already being done. It also explains the shutting down of debate at their conference.
This is why a post-independence general election is absolutely essential – although I doubt the SNP would let it happen.
Wilson’s plan will sell Scotland to the sharks.
I think they might underestimate the public reaction if they go down this road. It’ll be Pots and pans time outside holyrood.
Effijy…
I’ve got a new book for Sturgeon to read;
“The Paper Tiger Who Came to Tea”, by Ian Blackford, MP.
Link to the poll on currency opinion, and Richard Muphy’s take on it:
link to taxresearch.org.uk
Some bloke on there was arguing that the don’t scare the horses strategy has been working well for Indy – which I argued with (of course) – and with this poll I can now effectively tell him he’s talking mince 😉
I don’t think I realised before this year the seriously corrupt and stifling environment the SNP leadership has created. Can everyone support Tim Rideout as much as they can, in any way they can? He is doing huge amounts of work off his own bat, against the desires of the SNP leadership so a bit under the radar, and it’s his kind of planning and certainty – and simplicity of plan – that we need for really making arguments simpler, so convincing others of independence (those open to the idea anyway!) more likely.
What we need politically is to get rid of the entire SNP leadership, not just Nicola Sturgeon, for any Indy plan to work. I’ve considered writing to my MSP suggesting he will have to start causing ructions and protest against the SNP leadership to have any hope of my vote next year – but I’m reluctant,,, because I don’t want to risk not getting my nice Christmas card from him this year (yes, it’s weird the things that influences us) – January will do won’t it?
Well, this is getting interesting. Wonder if our esteemed FM will be apologising to those close-the-border protestors now,from a few weeks ago. You remember them, the ones she sneered “they do not speak for me” about, as if she is the personification of Scotland itself.
Won’t be holding my breath waiting for an apology. The lady’s not for turning, after all.
link to itv.com
A.Person 4:01am
No there is no surprise at the result, nor shock swings and gains, have a look at the figures. If you are bored have look at historical voting in Clacks East.
A 9% rise in vote share over the SNP might sound astonishing, but it’s not votes ‘from’ the SNP – if Steven had maybe told a really funny joke to the constituents of East Clacks, or was good at balloon animals, I’m sure he’d have made that up.
I had more people at my last Birthday – and I didn’t invite anyone.
Breaks -Jesus. That book hing wide give ye the book-boak. Thir’s suhhin oddly insecure aboot somebody trying tae impress ye wi thir ‘extensive’ library n, by proxy, thir ‘enormous and sensitive’ intellect. It’s like faux-intellectual grandstanding, n the only kinnay folk it impresses ur either folk thit dinnae read it aw, n ur impressed by such meaningless shite, or folk thit read thirsels n kin get a chistpuffy-ooty vicarious intellectual boost n validation ay thir ain wee precocious brains n book collections.
GUARANTEED Ms. Sturgeon will huv been yin ay they angsty high school birds writing handwringer doggerel aboot some unrequited love affair, n this is why she fawns oor anti-talents like Jackie Kay, oor ostensible National Poet, whae proudly brandishes her CBE, n lives in England.
Bet ye when the FM is finished running the country intae the grund she’ll start bringing out books ay whitivir stripe, cos thi’ll hae a guaranteed audience ay clowns thit widnae ken guid writing fae thir Satanic Verses (ma ain rhyming slang). The world is a wonderful place.
TD 6.02pm
I`m sorry TD but you clearly haven`t grasped the fact that NS and an apparent compliant SNP have absolutely no intention of pursuing independence. Do you seriously believe that when Sturgeon secures another term she will immediately announce a referendum and start campaigning for independence when she has refused to do so before. Make no mistake, at the moment she is the enemy of the cause and up to her neck in manure.
For me there is only one way I will vote for the SNP and that is the removal of the Murrell`s and a clear out of the NEC. If this does not happen I will vote for ISP.
@iain mhor,
Is there any way to see what % of the vote was postal votes,
and who the postal vote voted for.
Breeks @ 3:57am,
It looks very much like a PR exercise to me, which raises the question of why one would be needed.
There are various reasons of course but Nicola and her tight knit group must be feeling the pressure.
Maybe I’m reading too much in to it and the timing is merely coincidental, I’m sure people can make their own decision.
There can be no independence as long as our strategy is waiting for a thumbs up from Westminster.
A Section 30 is a bridge too far.
Why is this difficult for some people to comprehend?
@Breastplate,
The real issue is the unshakeable belief that Nicola Sturgeon has planned and modelled for every scenario that may lead to Independence.
This in spite of her giving every indication that she wants a Section 30 from Westminster. It is inconceivable to many that she has no alternative ready to launch at a moments notice.
So, they credit her with devious masterplans which frankly don’t exist, and never have.
This is what faith and total belief does. It leaves an individual immune from criticism, because it you lose that faith you hit reality, which might just bring your dreams crashing down round your ears. Very few can tolerate that prospect ,having committed years of time and no small amount of effort and cash to make it happen.
Solution? Denial!!
Ian Brotherhood Even then it would not as Sturgeon has confirmed the SNP would keep the monarchy even in the event of an independent Scotland, Scotland would become a Commonwealth realm like Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
However if there is more tactical voting going forward by Unionists as there was in Clackmannanshire East last night to beat the SNP don’t bet on an SNP majority next year and even the chance of indyref2 either, Sturgeon could find she is May 2017 and her huge poll lead collapses to no majority at all
Ian Blackford did well on QT.
I do not understand why the Tories keep putting that fool up for what seems like every show. He is clueless, arrogant, angry and in love with himself. The Scots presenter has his cards very clearly marked and is pretty brutal with him.
Blackford did well to just let him have a rant, no one north of Ae with any sense would believe any of his guff unless they are rabid Tories.
Don’t interupt your enemy whilst he is making errors is always a good rule to follow.
TD, under the lightest scrutiny just about everything you typed yesterday as fact morphed into a list of feelings. This sort of thing crops up a lot on here.
I shouldn’t need to point out that there’s a difference between saying “If Sturgeon goes we will all spontaneously combust” and “I’m worried that if Sturgeon goes we will all spontaneously combust”.
It’s normal and okay to have fears and feelings. It’s not okay to express them as factual statements.
This Internal Market Bill… if it doesn’t get ratified (or the EU rejects it), wouldn’t it effectively give Scotland a seat at the Trade Talks table?
Ch 4 here pedalling another narrative. Here’s their focus group of No voters. It’s about Converting soft No’s and how Boris is awful and big whoop Nicola. link to channel4.com
And yet their biggest concern? The economy – could we manage. You’ve got to laugh – we have more resources than stinking rich Norway and snp never shout this out. And this covid “now is not the time” – well hello, we could run our own furlough and not be hamstrung by Tory westminster.
They know that bojo wont last – so once he’s away expect them all to fall in with support for the union rising with new Tory PM. Spinning another narrative and all that
@effigy
“ He suggested Scotland’s Education was a disgrace.
How about schools in England closing early on Fridays
as they can’t afford to stay open?”
Highland schools also close at this time of da as well and have done for a couple of years
On QT last night.
The Church of England minister: ” I like to think of the UK as a family , and we need to find a way to accommodate all the members”.
If I hear that family analogy one more time I will scream. We are not a family. This is a political union of many countries. A family has blood ties and close biological connections. If it was a family. It’s a completely Jeremy Kyle dysfunctional family. There is a bully (England) at the top of the tree. It rules with an iron fist and ignores the other members.
You can’t change your family, but you can change your leaders. England and Scotland have nothing in common. It was always a fight between Anglo Saxon and Celtic heritage. Our culture and values are not the same as theirs. The only ones who have the same values are the 15% of hard line Tories. They are a fringe element in our nation.
Leaving England is not cutting family ties. It is breaking free from Serfdom. I no longer want to be England’s lapdog house jock slave.
Scotland may need an Alexander of Macedon (or Caledon) who instead of considering the method of untying the Gordian knot saves much time by taking a sword and cutting through it.
Scotland is in stasis. We need to get England and its subversive agents off our back. A really good systemic ‘shake up’ is required
Don’t pay any attention to the abysmal Question Time folks. Back in the 80s before multi-channel tv and the internet the show was deemed an important political forum and had viewers. Nowadays there are probably as many people in the studio audience as there are watching at home.
Breeks @ 3,57am
From what I just saw of the valiant Sir Desmond Swain on talk radio (if that’s not an oxymoron), other candidates for best library of the year award can probably forget about it already.
(I’d include a link but for the likliehood of it triggering the censorship bots)
Don’t know if anyone else has posted link to this e-mail from Alex Salmond to the harassment committee clerks:
link to parliament.scot
@Scottie Dog,8.21
Perhaps Andrew Wilson should read Yanis Varoufakis who found out the hard way that a country has no independence without its own currency.
“I can think of no better ‘strategy’ than SNP commitment to sterling if its aim is to lose independence and alienate Scots who want to vote with pride for an independent Scotland that seeks a path radically different to the one England embarked upon in 1979.” Yanis Varoufakis
stuart mctavish @10:58
breeks @3:57
Sturgeon: “These shelves are fiction”.
Just like her commitment to independence.
Just like her version of events over the Salmond case.
I commentated months back on this website that NS, unlike AS, seemed to me very like a person who never read a book.
Now I hear that this is all quite a big thing around her and she tweets about the books she has been reading (not sure if it is true, I do not do social media).
But the thing is this. She never speaks like someone who reads a lot of books, as these sort of people bring it into their conversation, especially if it is history books. I also think she is quite parochial, unlike AS, whom I can genuinely imagine reading loads of books on history, other cultures.
Also, the real bookworms tend to read nerdy things, getting into unknown stuff like Tibetan plants or Korean medieval kingdoms or pagan religions of South America. Additionally, if you actually read, i.e. take in what you are reading, I say it is *impossible* to be woke.
Kenny @11:13 am
Aye, if someone asked Sturgeon what she thought about Marcel Mauss she’d probably say that she never watched cartoons.
Kenny, the FM seems to gave a liking for Scottish crime fiction. Parochial and, given her criminal proclivities, quite fitting, I would say.
@Scot Finlayson 9:15am
If they are anywhere, they are here:
link to clacks.gov.uk
You’ll excuse me if I have not already read them all – this paint on my skirting boards won’t dry itself y’know.
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
From the Correspondence page this morning ,
The Deputy First Minister wrote to the Convener on 19 November 2020 regarding the planned evidence session with Scottish Government Officials on 24 November. The Convener responded on 19 November 2020:
Letter from the Deputy First Minister to the Convener, 19 November 2020 ,
link to parliament.scot
Letter from the Convener to the Deputy First Minister, 19 November 2020 ,
link to parliament.scot
The Scottish Government is definitely determined to delay the Committee , so much for Nicola Sturgeon’s promise that the government would be open and transparent with the Committee .
Great new post by Al Harron (or Taranaich if you prefer!) –
😉
link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com
Big Jock re BBC Question Time, or game for a laugh to give it it’s correct name
I am continually surprised how little the English people actually know about Scotland and what happens here , according to last nights Pantomime the whole country is totally backward and on a par with some African nations , its not just a different view of people’s circumstances it’s so far removed from reality it’s totally beyond belief ,
Just one piece of propaganda voiced as total truth , our NHS according to the presenter Bruce our NHS is near collapse and a pale comparison with England’s I watched with increasing anger and bafflement everything I was hearing was so removed from reality I watched it disbelief , no wonder the question a week before the 2014 vote the common question from English people was how has it come to this, what’s happened that Scots want to leave our sacred union .
The same shite that was used back then is being pushed out again Broon the worst PM in history before Bawjaws burst on the stage , Broon being presented again makes me think of Ground Hogd Day it’s like living through a bad dream, it keeps going on and on , I Give up honestly FFS
I was in a hurry yesterday, and not having a great memory I was talking on subject of claim of right. The subject I raised was not meant to be discussed from a religious or Scottish government, or snp point of view,
It was to bring to the independence movements attention, that the claim of right is recognised legally by Scotland and England, and as (breeks) pointed out is still extant today.
The claim of right, gives the sovereign Scottish people the right to choose whom governs them,
In its wording it is brilliant,
but what it does not say is just as good, it does not say, we need or have to go through the snp, or the tories, labour, Holyrude or Westminster.
And it does not say what kind of government we have to choose, or that we have to stick with that choice forever, or that we can only make that choice once in a lifetime or generation, nor are there restrictions special when we are allowed to make that choice,
If we are genuine in seeking independence, all avenues must be explored as others fail us.
Thanks Maggie C.
Its just more confirmation that the SNP are hiding something. I feel though that the committee needs to start showing some teeth.
Bob @ 9:49am
Agreed and it is unfortunate that their blind faith and denial is impacting on all of us.
@Ian Brotherhood, 11.01
I’ve just read Mr Salmond’s email. Thanks for posting the link to the Harassment Complaints Committee.
You may also be aware that my solicitors have been informed by letter from the Crown Office that if they present or even describe to the Parliamentary Committee information gained in disclosure in the criminal proceedings they will be liable to prosecution. I am happy to provide you with this letter if you wish. Please confirm if this threat applies to your enquiry because there are indeed relevant documents under this restriction. However, given that much of this documentation was obtained by Crown search warrant from the Scottish Government it would be open for the Government to supply you with it. Your difficulty is that you do not know what it is and I am currently debarred from informing you.
This is like reading an excerpt from a work of fiction by Franz Kafka – what a commentary on the actions of the Scottish Government.
Only point I’d disagree with is the conflation of ‘irrational hatred’ of Salmond as FM with that of Sturgeon. From an Indy supporter’s point of view it’s not a comparison of like with like. Very few Indy supporters who didn’t appreciate Salmond’s personal style could be accused of harbouring an ‘irrational hatred’. He was never seen as a block to delivery on Scotland’s cause. For those Indy supporters becoming increasingly angry at the Sturgeon cabal’s squandering of the mandated opportunity for Indy & subjecting our sovereignty to BritNat ‘permissions’, their dislike or hatred of Sturgeon is far from ‘irrational’. She, her husband, & their woke cabal are a block to what they were elected to do. Hating that is not ‘irrational’.
So apparently priti Patel has broken the ministerial code on bullying, Boris says she has not and won’t sack her.
So slight different scenario if NS is found to have mislead parliament can she refuse to go if she has holyrood backing?
@cirsium (1.23) –
Agreed. It is grotesque.
And listening to Mr Wolffe t’other day, it’s clear that this shameful abuse of language and process has become key to the govt defence.
I’m sure we all hope Alex Salmond gets his chance as soon as possible because when he does answer questions he’ll be able to do so without hesitation, repetition, faux promises to write to the committee with this, that and whatever else etc. That means he’ll be able to get through a lot more in the available time than we’ve become used to from the dithering witnesses called thus far.
We can also be sure he’s rehearsed every possible line of questioning and will have worked out how to get the ‘truth’ in the public domain without giving Ms Fabiani any cause for concern.
[…] November 19, 2020 admin 0 Views 0 Comments […]
Maggie C as usual thanks for your updates I have tried both links for Swanneys email and the response from the committee, Swanneys says it is not archived , but on reading the committee’s response it appears Swanney is refusing to ALLOW the committee to question 2 uncivil servants , the committee firmly puts the BLAME on Swanneys and the SG DELIBERATE obfuscation and unfulfilled promises of supplying the documentation requested
TBH this inquiry is a TOTAL F ARSE and again TBH the members of this committee should call a press conference and RESIGN EN MASSE and STATE the reason for doing so is the continued and deliberate REFUSAL by the SG to supply the required requested on numerous occasions documentation to ENABLE the committee to reach a conclusion , the SG , NS , John Swinney , Evans , James Wolffe are RIDICULING and SMEARING Scotland’s legal system , Scotland’s Parliament , Scotland’s government ,and SCOTLAND in the eyes of the WORLD , THEY are a national disgrace comparable to a despotic authoritarian 3rd world country
I APPEAL TO ANY AND ALL MP’S, MSP’S OF ALL PARTIES DO YOU FIND THIS STRANGULATION AND MISUSE OF JUSTICE ACCEPTABLE , OR WILL YOU TAKE STEPS TO RECTIFY THE SITUATION
To the MSM DO YOUR JOB and CALL THIS ABOMINATION OUT
Why do so some posters on Wings remind me of Mr Angry at the Golf Club AGM who always claims to have the support of ‘many members’ when in truth nobody can stand him.
Muscleguy says:
19 November, 2020 at 12:03 pm
” Except that we are social animals who react in social ways in social situations such as being polled.”
I’m one of those anti social animals – the type my auld man would say would “Haud the cat’s erse tae the sun”. 🙂 Are there many of us around?