The soul of the SNP
As we write this, voting has just ended to elect the membership of a number of key SNP internal bodies, including the Member Conduct Committee which has the power to discipline members and even expel them from the party.
This year has seen a concerted attempt by a small but active faction within the SNP, led by the Young Scots for Independence and Out For Indy groups, to flood the MCC (which in normal times struggles to fill its ranks) with officers aggressively committed to transgender ideology, with the openly-declared intent of purging “gender-critical” women from all party candidate lists and ensuring that anyone seeking to protect women’s sex-based rights can be expunged for “transphobia”.
(An attempt to deselect Joanna Cherry on such grounds failed earlier this year, but with control of the MCC the faction could pretty much dump anyone it wanted to.)
The matter has not escaped the attention of the independence-hostile media.
We avoided discussing the committee elections while voting was taking place because it’s not our business to interfere in the internal affairs of the SNP, and also because a certain element of the party has been having a massive tantrum over some poll results we published last week and it might have ended up being counter-productive.
But make no mistake – the outcome of these elections will have a huge impact on both the SNP’s electoral fortunes and the chances of securing independence. We’re about to find out, in other words, how screwed we are.
That’s because we know, beyond any shred of doubt, that the trans issue is toxically divisive everywhere, because every single party is spectacularly at odds with its own voters on it. Poll after poll after poll finds the public opposed to the proposals being put forward by every party to allow “self-ID”, by which men can declare themselves to be women just by saying so, and access by right anywhere that women have previously prized as a penis-free space.
Some of those polls have been conducted by this site, and are invariably leapt on by trans activists as having featured supposedly “leading” or “unfair” questions, even though we check all our questions with Panelbase first and the results have without exception been identical, often to within a single percentage point, to those revealed in polls featuring differently-worded questions commissioned by extremely trans-friendly organisations like Pink News.
No matter how you frame or phrase the question, a huge majority of voters (usually by margins of 50-60 points), across every demographic and political affiliation, is against the idea of letting people change their legal sex on their own say-so.
But what if you don’t mention transgenderism in the question at all?
Oh. It’s exactly the same. Again. There was no preamble to the above question, no lead-in, no related questions. But when we asked a UK-wide sample of over 2000 people which of the facts recorded on a person’s birth certificate should be alterable (other than a person’s own name), two-thirds of them said “None”.
Scottish voters were even more opposed to the idea than English ones, with the Welsh the least supportive of all. And in the Scottish half of the survey, SNP voters were more opposed than Labour or Lib Dem ones. (By a net 43 points, compared to 32 for Lib Dems and 36 for Scottish Labour voters.)
There was only a modest difference in opposition between Yes and No voters:
Nothing between men and women:
Nothing between middle-class and working-class:
And while the age gap was the largest by miles, young men and young women were both still solidly against the idea overall (by 11 points and 10 points respectively).
Support for the idea was still remarkably high, by any rational measure – six times higher than the no-less-absurd idea that you should be able to decide your own age, eight times as high as the notion of retrospectively redefining your place of birth (so there goes that cunning post-Brexit plan to get an Irish passport), and three times as high as claiming different parents, so no pretending that you’re actually Prince Dave when the Queen dies and demanding to inherit Windsor Castle.
But even though it was far more than sanity would allow, opposition to self-ID still runs at around 3:1 against – and when people are opposed to it, they tend to be REALLY opposed to it. It WILL cost votes, and even when other parties back an idea, it’s the one in government, which actually enacts it, that voters hold responsible and punish.
The degree to which the SNP will alienate the vast bulk of the electorate over the next 12 months has now been determined. All we can do now is wait to find out just how bad it’s going to be.
I self ID as a woman but I happen to be a transvestite too so to all intents and purposes I look like a man, even though I don’t self ID as one.
Anyway, I’m just nipping off to a couple of ladies toilets as a social experiment, to see how far I get.
If anyone’s looking for me, you’ll find me in the nearest A&E department.
Thank you.
Yet people posting on here wonder if you have an anti SNP agenda ?
How many warnings do you need to give them ?Their own actions hurt them, though so far it hasnt affected the indy vote.
Time to get rid of the hardliners in the party.
I tend to think that the SNP have been infiltrated by people we neither want or need. Perhaps it was to easy to get into the SNP after the 2014 referendum. Too many people clamouring to join and no check on those who now seem to have influence.
What on earth does Trans gender issues have to do with the main reason which is, to gain Independence. I see this as a way to destroy the party and we need more people like Joan MacAlpine and Joanna Cherry to ensure this doesn’t happen. I have said if the SNP fail to carry out the wishes of their membership,another party Williams it’s place. It is hanging by a thread presently.
And I note from your twitter that Lesley Riddoch got applauded at the SNP conference for floating the idea of another Indy party.
I seriously hope the high heid yins took note of even their delegates being open to the idea, let alone us voters.
I seriously hope the Women’s Equality Party are standing because I am seriously thinking of giving them my vote, absent a Wings party on the Holyrood list. I already did not vote SNP in the last Holyrood constituency vote over a heartfelt issue (Assisted Dying) so doing so again will not cause me any great pangs. Last time I could vote for the TSPC who were at least in favour of indyref2. Saved me spoiling my ballot.
Can you ask how much they care about the issue? Or to the extent it will affect who they vote for?
Am strongly opposed to a traffic light at the end of my street but I’m not spending every waking hour thinking about it.
Never underestimate the capacity of any person or group, to be their own worst enemy.
If I was Unionist, I’d be squirming with delight over the handling of transgender by the SNP.
It’s such a stupid issue to lose progressive members over. But this wee clique is far from progressive. They’re misogynistic and attacks on people like Joanna Cherry – trying to have her deselected just as she was beginning to be a major anti Brexit voice – leave no doubt their motives are not pro Indy or pro SNP. They’re also not pro transsexuals, as that word is as much hated by them as “women”. If they take control, this gender non conforming woman is out.
Nicola is effectively saying that Independence is worth sacrificing for the sake of a really tiny number of people who wish to change their gender.
There is no future for Nicola in the pursuance of this policy.
It was this issue that caused me and many like me, to cancel my SNP membership. SNP leadership take note.
But for the 77th out there – it still will never stop me, and others like me, voting for Indy when IR2 comes along. And it will. And, despite your best(?) efforts to disrupt things here, Scotland will vote YES.
O/T
I don’t suppose today’s unemployment figure rise has anything to do with the fact that they will include this year’s school leavers.
This same SNPbad nonsense appears every year at this time.
@Ross,
I cant say for those polled, but as I have outlined in a previous thread in my own family should the SNP take a bad decision they will lose the votes of my wife and three daughters as wel! as probably my grandaughters (3)who wil! be e!igible to vote next year.
We do discuss these issues.
*I seriously hope the Women’s Equality Party are standing because I am seriously thinking of giving them my vote, absent a Wings party on the Holyrood list.*
Sadly, WEP believe TWAW and sold out actual women already.
I am getting to the stage that any reduction of the SNP’s participation in the independence movement is to be welcomed. It is a far past time that a true independence motivated party was started. They are leading the faithful up a dead-end street and giving up the best possible opportunity for independence that will ever, present itself. This self ID will have a huge impact on their performance at any election. It seems almost deliberate
Can’t move for all these trans people ruining my life , said nobody outside of this weird bubble (on both sides)
This is jumping the shark.
@Bob mack.
That’s fine. Would love to see proper polling of that. Not seeing any here. Every poll has been deliberately worded. The idea SNP will lose huge votes over this issue is laughable to me. Plenty other reasons for them losing votes beside this one
Look – over there – a squirrel.
Trump/Boris ignoring a new genocide.
Trump/Boris – criminal against the state.
SNPeee – falling apart – run with it.
Very interesting these polls Stu. Thanks for commissioning them.
No idea why facts frighten some people and attack the messenger. Keep up your good work.
@Ross,
You cant have failed to notice the broadcasts by womens groups being physically threatened by transactivists surely ?
These are rea! events. Only a few weeks ago a guy was sent to prison for claiming to be trans to access a womans changing room where he carried out two sexual assaults.
Your experience of sexual predation may we!l be very different from mzny womens.
Still surprising how seldom the likely disaster of Brexit is mentioned in these threads, and the probable impact on support for independence.
A Guardian piece yesterday estimated that Johnson’s deal, if passed, may mean a reduction in per capita UK GDP of 6.4%, as opposed to 4.9% with May’s deal. 6.4% really isn’t that far off the 8.1% reduction predicted by the same people for a no-deal Brexit.
For comparison 6% was the reduction in Irish GDP between 2008 and 2012. Anybody who went to Ireland during those years will remember the fury of the population for the politicians they felt were responsible, fury several levels up from that seen in the UK at the time.
A 6 to 8% decrease in UK GDP, possibly combined with riots and medicine shortages, will see a similar anger in Scotland directed at Westminster and the Union. We’ve just seen Panelbase say Scots prefer independence to a no-deal Brexit by 54 to 46%. Imagine how Yes would poll during an economic collapse similar to Ireland’s during the credit crunch, or worse.
Yes at the high fifties or higher, in economic circumstances inflicted on Scotland by the Union, is the prime scenario in which to legally challenge a rejection of a S30 request.
The only thing that can kill off our momentum is personal-branding-obsessed infighting, or Brexit being killed off. It is impossible to see a fascism-curious England simply giving up on Brexit, no matter what happens in any election or referendum.
So that just leaves the infighting.
Can’t fathom why Indy will die on the cross of 0.00000000001% of the population (who quite possibly don’t even care about Indy).
It’s been FAR too easy to rattle into the SNP & gain influence since 2014.
In their quest to be everything to all folk – they have allowed folk to infiltrate their ranks who couldn’t GAF about the SNP or their founding ideals or principles.
8 decades of hard work are being risked for a few politically correct folk who support an even fewer men who want freedoms they have already.
It’s VERY telling the loudest & most vocal are all hipster adolescents & men with beards, bad attitudes towards women & a sense of entitlement.
The non attention seeking male to female transitioners & the female to male transitioners all seem to be very, very quiet on the matter. Which is ‘strange’.
You have to wonder why the SNP has allowed them to infiltrate & gain so much traction.
And you have to ask what the longstanding SNP membership is going to do about it.
Brilliant to see WOS triggering the identity politics groups and their nonsense ‘inclusivity’ narrative. That sht is pure poison. I was becoming very disillusioned that not many fellow scots could see it. The trans issue has done it. Cant wait til they start pushing paedophilia. Thats when the awakening truly begins
I was wondering if I had overreacted by cancelling my SNP membership following the recent news about the WPL. This would’ve broke the camel’s back for me anyway so feeling less uneasy now, but only slightly.
It would have been good to get a link to the SNP conference in Aberdeen.
No one else seems to be doing that. The bloody BBC have it on the red button on Parliament channel and I’ve got older friends phoning me asking how to watch the conference.
LibDems were on every channel all day. Make of that what you will.
I’ve had to post a link from Twitter to Facebook for them. It really is outrageous!
@Unionist media BDSM club,
There is only a narrow window for disharmony following Brexit.
People wil! adapt and change to circumstances prevailing over the course of a year. After that it becomes normality.
I hope and pray we have indy referendum by that time
It’s kinda genius. It’s a topic that no politician will criticize because you will be gleefully portrayed as a nazi, and the vast majority of the public are either disinterested, irritated by or hostile to. It has no real political (independence related) impact yet has to be considered as a core issue. Said it before and will say it again, where that RISE bullshit failed, this might succeed.
The British State wrote the manual on divide and rule.
Without a doubt, they will have infiltrated the SNP to try and destroy the party from within.
The way these weasel words works is that a TransActivist wishing to skew the results would run the same poll with the question:
‘Which of these do you think it should be possible to correct on your birth certificate’
(i.e. drop ‘facts’ and insert ‘correct’)
Just warning, it’s the sort of mind games that these people play
Bob Mack says:
15 October, 2019 at 2:13 pm
@Unionist media BDSM club,
There is only a narrow window for disharmony following Brexit.
People wil! adapt and change to circumstances prevailing over the course of a year. After that it becomes normality.
I hope and pray we have indy referendum by that time
—————–
Oh so do I, Bob.
But I can’t agree people would just shrug after a year of an Ireland 2008-12-style collapse. That collapse was only nearing its worst phase after a year, and I’d guess the same for Brexit.
US manufacturing is now officially in recession too. Picture an additional recession on top of the credit crunch, and that may give an idea of what’s coming Scotland’s way. I’m just surprised how seldom this is mentioned here.
None of this is an argument for delaying iref2, by the way. I agree with everyone who says not holding it before the next Holyrood elections will be disastrous.
At the same time I can’t strongly disagree with the current strategy which may well see Yes nearing 60% next year.
Mist 001 @ first comment
Aye…very funny except it’s no..
Yer no very fucking funny… This is oor life’s and the life’s of the least of us… AKA.. Wee lassies..
Aye??
@Unionist media BDSM club
I remember shen we had to sit with no power for months on end, when rubbish piled high in the stredts,when the dead lay unburied. Al! under a Labour government.
I remember record unemployment and Britain being the sick man of Europe going to the IMF to try and remain solvent on at leaxt two occasions.
No riots then. People adapted.
Meanwhile, topical motion at SNP conference this afternoon the topical resolution will be debated later.
Entitled “Scotland’s place in Europe” it states: Conference reiterates that it is the sovereign right of the people of Scotland to choose our own future, and endorses the policy of the Scottish government that if Scotland is removed from the European Union against our democratic will then the SG will take all steps necessary to organise a referendum on independence and commence preparations with the EU for pre-accession and accession talks as an applicant state.”
Cue wild clapping and cheering. As I stated before the SNP WiLL NOT BACK OFF Indy ref next year.
We will need all of us all the time towin. Can we please train our guns on the enemy? For God’s sake, get campaigning Stu.
No riots then. People adapted.
False equivalence. When you have been used to a particular lifestyle and it’s suddenly taken away from you, sure, you might adapt to the reduced lifestyle. Situation here is different though because you are being presented with the choice that if you just place an x in a wee box you have the chance to get much of the lifestyle you previously had back again.
Big difference.
Nicola Sturgeon was an excellent Health minister. By some distance the best. She is clearly hardworking and intelligent. But I fear if she doesn’t act she’s going to oversee the breakup of the SNP.
Personally I don’t care too much about any one party, but independence is quite important to me and I’d rather not split the vote at this crucial time and be left with Robert Lupus, Wilbur Ranitidine and Jockstrap Crossbow dictating what Holyrood does.
The SNP are not going to split up.
FFS.
@Proud Cybernat,
Oh I agree, but I also know the window of opportunity to allow that to happen is narrow. Like it or not people will adapt to anything over time. Even if that time is limited.
Self ID has been implemented in several countries already, how have they gotten on?
As much as people say predators will abuse this new law I’d be more interested in the stats from places that have implemented it
I remember the tantrums people threw when the legal age of consent for gay people was changed to 16 – like straight people
I remember the campaign to keep section 22 / 2a so kids in school wouldn’t be taught anything about homosexulity
I remember the bitter campaigns to try and stop civil partnerships and equal marriage
I see self ID as another issue where people’s fears are being exploited to hurt part of the LGBT community
The real transphobes have been very good at stirring up Fear Uncertainty and Doubt
There is nothing stopping someone just now dressing as a woman and going into women’s only space
Rhiannon Spear is women’s convener and Fiona Robertson is equalities converner.
Well we know how the SNP stand now on women’s rights.
So I’ve done a quick google search and found this:
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/countries-trans-self-identify/
From that list there’s Ireland, Malta, Norway, Portugal and Belgium that have already done this
I know our news from Ireland is pretty shoddy when it’s not about BrExit but 297 people have self identified in this way since 2015 – have they had any of the issues that we keep getting told will happen if we allow selfid?
Every Wednesday I self-ID as a hamster, I love Wednesdays. 🙂
OK, joking apart, self-ID is the most stupid idea that I know of.
Contrary to all laws and conventions, sayin “I am…” does not give one the right to contravene the rights of other people.
Women are adult human females, men can alter the outer camouflage with cosmetical products or surgery but the inner skeletel, muscular organs never change.
However most transmen haven’t got the “guts” to do what they should.
@SilverDarling says:
15 October, 2019 at 3:00 pm
Rhiannon Spear is women’s convener and Fiona Robertson is equalities converner.
SilverDarling can you expand on this – I’m not sure what side Spear is on, and I think Roberston is on the side if the GRA reformations? Is that correct?
Thanks in advance.
@Daisy Walker
Both are very much in favour of reform of the GRA as proposed ie Self ID as easy as possible for Trans individuals. In addition they are both very anti-WoS.
The four categories are immutable facts. Facts!
When discussed with those not au fait with this toxic nonsense, the first reaction i’ve mostly had is “what’s the big deal, let them”.
When brought up to speed, this rapidly changes to “no effing way”.
I mentioned in a previous thread that when something was contentious or there was a notable dissent in respect to any SNP policy that the MSM would jump on it AND would determine to make it an issue where they, the MSM, would take the opposing view of the SNP….and then would use it as another stick with which to beat the SNP.
This issue, Self ID , is something that will NOT disappear and simply be seen as a non issue…or indeed a minor issue….and indeed will be one with which certain journalists will jump on yet another SNPBAD bandwagon, with relish, to openly criticise the SNP should they endorse self ID to the detriment of women in general.
If the SNP allow certain factions within their party to dictate on this issue and try and impose their will on this matter without consulting or considering the affect on others, i.e. women, then they will find a lot of women will very quickly become their opponents as opposed to their supporters….as indeed will many husbands, fathers, brothers etc.
Let’s not allow ourselves to be confused that this issue is anti transgender….it is not…a male who fully transitions to become a female and has taken the long and painful steps, both psychologically and physically, to become a woman has acquired new rights to access female only areas….to not allow this would impose impossible and embarrassing situations for these females.
A male who states he self ID’s as a woman but refrains from full transition and therefore maintains his male identity,both psychologically and physically, cannot acquire or justify any rights to access female only areas….because he has chosen to remain a MALE…irrespective of who he states he id’s as.
I have a friend who is transgender and know this is a long and emotionally, physically painful process but one where the ultimate determination was to become a female…NOT just in name but physically too. To feel so strongly that one is born in the wrong body to the extent that you have to become a woman and where no physical part of you remained as a male.
Self ID does NOT have any semblance of similarity to those who seek full transition to the opposing sex i.e. transgenders
….It has though somehow become a weapon which unbelievably has been used against lesbians i.e. women….and indeed has demeaned some within the LGBT movement in their support of those who seek self ID status and thus who see this as a justification of their right in being allowed to access female areas…
It also somehow unbelievably allows them the prerogative, as members of this movement, to verbally attack women who are lesbian and who oppose self ID males access to their meetings ….while also seemingly permitting self ID individuals to have the right to physically assault lesbians and not be reprimanded in doing so.
The bottom line is as a woman I will feel neither comfortable or safe sharing a space with a man who simply self id’s as woman BUT is still very much a man physically. If I had a daughter I would be very afraid and indeed angry that any political party would expect me to accept her privacy and safety was being potentially violated by someone whose true intentions may be suspect and hell would know no fury should anything but anything happen to her as a result of this.
Bad decisions have consequences and usually it is upon those who oppose these bad decisions that these consequences are mostly felt…with Self ID there is more serious and dangerous consequences for the rights of women being impacted and so women should be the ones who decide NOT those who determine to IMPOSE their newly created self identification status…..
It is still an issue that is very much ambivalent, to say the least, and thus should be treated with extreme caution….risks should not be taken to just placate the few who have contrived a right only they recognise as allowing them access to where they deem should be accessible to them….. when there are many more who will suffer losing their rights by imposing a policy that has indeed a HIGH risk for a part of society who have fought so hard to both win and retain their rights…with minus the risks being a strong consideration in doing so.
@Clapper 57,
Bravo. I salute you.
@Silverdarling.
re ‘both are very much into GRA amendments’.
Oh dear. Well we did see it coming. At least now its becoming more and more untenable.
And if timing is everything, those behind this stupidity, probably did not want it out in the open quite just yet.
Time for, at the very least, new candidates, if not a new party.
The GRA is now an international issue, most prominently bonkers in the area of women’s sport.
Imagine if the women athletes go on strike at the next major international sporting event… on the starting gun.. they refuse to run.
Imagine how much international coverage that will garner.
And how deeply stupid and discriminatory any party will look not just endorsing it, but actively pushing it.
Nicola Sturgeon opened this pandora’s box. With her vaunted sexual libertarian views and her opinions on the ‘evils’ of nationalism and even on the party name she would be better employed elsewhere.
This woman will never deliver independence, she’s occupied frying other (career) fish.
The SNP is plainly mired in the slime of the irrational narcissism of the times.
Is Scotland once again courting the psychological spectre of self-inflicted defeat?
Two issues.
Firstly self IDing seems preposterous. I can’t for the life of me imagine why someone believes it’s ok, never mind 42% of women under 35. There must be 100s of examples of why it’s narcissistic, selfish, impositional, and indulgent. And that’s before we consider perverts. But one …. what about Moslem women with traditional cultural values who enjoy women only swimming sessions, are they to just give up and stay at home?
Secondly, the issue which really concerns me most. We rely on a pro Indy majority at Holyrood to even begin to move towards independence. Politics is necessarily fought on a range of policies. That represents a problem when for many of us one policy matters much more than all others. Having (my) most important priority effected by other issues seems like a threat.
One of the downsides of media bias is the SNP membership are denied critical analysis of people standing for office. As a member I voted for my constituency GEcandidate with very little knowledge of what they stood for. Reading the candidates statements Eg I did not know how they stood on issues like self ID. Reading Ms Spears’ statement on Twitter pre election eg she does not mention her opinion on self ID
The SNP is not the only party having difficulty with self ID. All parties have difficulty with this subject I personally wish the best outcomes for people with trans issues but fear that the subject has been infiltrated by fraudsters. We must not aid these frauds.
You say she’s an A List
I say he’s a Rapist
You say it’s a Lady
I say there’s a maybe
Let’s call the whole thing off!
Surely any decent transgender male to female person
can respect that their wish to take their penis’ into female
Toilets and changing rooms put burn as females in jeopardy!
There will be rapes, their will be assault and their will be robbery
From hardened criminals waiting to hide behind this legislation.
Criminals won’t want castration in order to qualify for access so if you
Have a penis it goes in the Gents door.
Good luck to those on a journey but society cannot put females in danger
To let you chose any toilet you want.
The vast majority don’t want this so they get their way.
It’s not to be cruel to anyone it’s to keep unnecessary dangers away from women
Who don’t have a penis.
Would that be 99% of them.
Motion carried, bowel motion in the Gents meantime.
Fantastic speech from nicola. Wow.
Inspirational stuff from NS
All the boxes ticked
Indyref 2 next year
Make it so
Spear and Robertson – better to have them inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.
“I self ID as a cat and therefore I can s*** on your lawn”
I cannot support self-ID because it removes all safeguards to protect vulnerable people through the use of a simple phrase with no checks or balances in place. And by its very definition, it is literally enabling anarchy.
What angers me most about this issue is that impacts the individuals who genuinely don’t fall into the 99+% of people who are male or female that will feel the kickback from the general public.
Speech was excellent with important social policies promised.
GE becomes an important factor with Independence coming to the forefront and folk told overtly what their vote means.
Referendum 6 months or more away now I’ve just got to live a bit longer getting grumpier but I’ll do it.
————————————————————-
Meanwhile:
£1.16 V Euro. heady stuff on the FTSE’s. 🙁
PS:
Oh here is big auntie to shoot the SNP policies all down 🙁
Must dash and pay attention to where we’re all going wrong… 🙂 Aye!
For what it is worth I believe the Scottish Independence referendum needs to be in the spring or summer next year for the best chance of a win, if not I can’t see a win when the days are short and depressing. SAD but true!
Good old BBC – reduced to coming up with the old ‘Once In A Generation’ chestnut.
Bravo Clapper57@3:12PM
The definition of ‘trans’ and ‘tra’ is that it is as much about the act of going across, moving, changing: transform, transport, trajectory, transplant, transmogrify, and so on.
People like your friend should be supported and helped and expect to live a life free from discrimination and abuse.
Sigh.
The leaders of Scottish nationalism have lost it. And like Queen Mary said about the First World War, over such a stupid reason too.
I say, a faction in control of the MCC just isn’t cricket!
Bon Dias Troops.
Kicking out Joanna Cherry is like kicking out Messi from the Barcelona team.
Some of the yoof now trying to reverse.
I watched bbc daily politics earlier and enjoyed watching Derek Mackay DEMOLISHING ALL the usual tropes and reasons why Scotland cannot and will not be GRANTED the right to be independent by the bbc heavy hitter Jo Coburn
I ESPECIALLY loved his response to her SCOTLAND’S 7% deficit barring us from the EU , Derek HIGHLIGHTED that it was wastemonsters GERS assertion based on GUESSTIMATES supplied by them and that was not a true reflection of how Scotland’s economy would function after independence
That is what Nicola should have reinforced to Marr the other day
Derek’s interview and Keith Brown’s statement at conference should be mirrored in the assertiveness shown by any and all SNP representatives at any forthcoming interviews
THAT WOULD PLEASE THE TROOPS
I remember any comment made by Kenny Farquharson was met by raucous laughter by everybody on the side of Scottish Independence
no fucking comment
except for you Mike Lothian – you can fuck right off you apologist cant you.
….commented didn’t I?……time for a lie down.
Dunno who it was on here that said ‘independence ‘ wouldn’t be mentioned at the conference. But fair play, nicola certainly mentioned it.
And also her show of support for Catalonia.
If its going to be bad for the SNP won’t it be similarly bad for other parties come a GE.
Also surely folk opposed to it and folk for it who have a common ground for independence will stil vote yes.
“”Poll after poll after poll finds the public opposed to the proposals being put forward by every party to allow “self-ID”.””
In your poll you asked a loaded question, defining those people with a penis as “physically male” – even then the margin was small. Apparently brains – where gender is played out – are not physical. Given the right information and education these polls would not result in that outcome, I would hope, because that would be either be based on a Daily Mail level of ignorance on the subject or a complete lack of compassion despite knowing the facts. There was a majority against same-sex marriage. Now there isn’t. And the legality of homosexuality. And women’s voting. And slavery . And … things change. In the UK a majority supports self-id.
Never mind the fact that many trans people never had a penis in the first place and that only about 5000 people in the UK have “changed” gender. Actually everything about it is extremely difficult for those concerned.
I’m sure you’ve spent a lot of time researching it by googling shit though
Full text of Nicola’s address
https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeons-address-to-snp19/
I find no fault with anything said. Great speech.
I had a look on line seeking out First Ministers Conference speech.
Nothing there!
The leader of my country’s biggest Party and Nothing there!
The Biased Bastards at the BBC can give you snippets from yesterday though?
If Bungling Bojo the Clown’s farts it’s on the BBC’s pages before the smell goes.
This is another massive boost for independence when we can have proper balanced
Journalism and TV reporting.
Propaganda Quay should become the museum of Scottish Independence !
Effigy
Here it is in full
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1184111825102598144
That’s it for me. Nicola has been on a shoogly peg for a while now with me. GRA is something so important that I thought delegates would think very carefully about and vote accordingly. Rhiannon Spear! FFS. Membership cancelled.
@ Bobp
Errmmmm……..that would have been me!
I certainly got that one wrong!
GRA and Self ID = to HELL with womens rights = turn the clock back 200 years
I just wish the nut-jobs would be honest so that I can get my pitch fork out………a conspiracy nut might suggest this is the work of religious extremists or even just plain ole good sport from the devil himsel’ (or hersel’)
Has Nicola gone all Trump / BoJo on us with her ‘take no shit’ stance?
‘There must be a referendum in 2020’
‘Don’t pick up the phone unless you’re going to offer a S30’
Trouble is with that negotiating style, it only works if you have something the opposite side want. Westminster ALREADY has all of Scotland’s bargaining chips, and a GE result which delivers a hung parliament is very unlikely so the SNP won’t get the chance to be shut out of any negotiations like they always are anyway.
So it looks like she really is just appealing to the Tories better nature, when they’ve clearly told her they don’t have one.
‘What gives you any right to deny people in Scotland the ability to decide our own future?’
Shameless arrogance Nicola that’s what. The same thing that’s giving the Tories the right to drag Scotland out of the EU.
Have you honestly not realised what we’re up against yet?
SNP are cutting off their arms and legs after having lobotomised themselves.
Eejits.
I willstoll vote for Indy but will now think long and hard about voting SNP
I’ve been an SNP member for 29 years.
I’ve put out 1000s of SNP leaflets, but now I’m more interested in progressing with the Yes movement.
The issues I have are the self ID, the lack of determination & ideas & imagination for Indy.
Don’t get me wrong, I will still vote SNP, but I’m not spending my spare time as an activist.
Seeing all the different groups in Edinburgh especially the Yes bikers and musicians etc does more for Indy than 10,000 leaflets.
The media demonises the SNP so it’s not totally their fault they have become a wee bit boring.
I’m SNP all the way. Please drop this self gender nonsense. Please up your game with Indy and try and have the guts that our Catalonian friends have shown us… and bugger Westminster, they will never give you permission for Indy Ref2, they have far too much to loose.
I’ve been a member of the SNP for over 60yrs having joined at a Folk Night in the old Bay Hotel, Gourock by the then Greenock, Gourock & Port Glasgow, Branch, if my memory serves me correctly the visiting singer was Hamish Imlach. At the time I was about to start into my Highers but Higher Science only comprised Physics and Chemistry and where Biology did not feature very highly. However, I was fortunate in being able to spend my summer holidays on one of the family farms in Ireland where I like most rural bairns got first-hand knowledge of biology (animal) but as it was pointed out to you there is not a lot of difference between human and animal.
There I learned that there two variants male and female but occasionally unexplained mutations happened e.g. a lamb with five legs and I’ve always respected that this happens and it has never particularly bothered me as I’m a great believer in ‘live-and-let-live’. I’m also aware that there are people who through no fault of their own were born with gender medical differences and that some have encountered personal difficulties when it comes to ‘gender identification’ in trying to live their life’s. I can’t pretend to know how they feel but I’m aware that there are many, especially amongst the older generations who do not believe that such gender variations really do exist and with modern times meaning fewer and fewer people having a farming background where when anomalies occurred it was just accepted as one of life’s great mysteries and therefore easier to accept in humans as we are all animals after all.
However, I do wish that people who find themselves believing that they are not the gender that their sexual organs say they are could just stop and think for a moment about the people who have been brought-up in society where gender only has two variants, male or female. Please try and understand how an elderly person feels if they are confronted by a person who physically looks like the opposite gender that they are identifying as. These people are not in the main ‘transphobic’ and would be horrified to be accused of being so. They are probably confused, scared even so please, please try to understand the feelings of these people especially if they are of an older generation.
For us ordinary folk like me, I ask you to try and put any misconceptions out of your heads and try and understand that these people are who they are, they, like you they had no control over how their genes were mixed before birth.
At the end of the day we all need to RESPECT how other people feel and react and treat everyone with dignity and this works both ways.
Aw the folk who don’t like the FM are upset
Diddums
Dr Jim@6-48
Indeed, and, unfortunately the Rev is encouraging them. He was really hurt after Dugdale and probably now is just doing all he can to stir matters for the SNP and particularly Nicola.
Interesting perspective towards Ireland’s introduction of self-ID:
https://twitter.com/NaGiggles/status/1172273116636225537
@Dr Jim
They are SNP voters you patronising buffoon.
Plan B? What about Party B? Pikes and pitchforks ready?
Also, found this article which includes a number of ‘identities’ that I’m sure while be accepted under self-ID:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/health/transgender-laws-around-the-world/index.html
Entryism on this and other single issue topics is affecting all the parties (with the possible exception of the Tories…Patel has probably has them all shot.)
Attempts to ditch capable stars like Cherry only to replace them with a politically correct mediocrity is lunacy. It is something that must be resisted in every branch in the country. Other parties would do well to do likewise but that is their problem.
That said I haven’t seen any sign of entryism in my branch.
Aw the revs wee brown tongued Arse licker is upset tae
Nicked this from some other chiel:
https://web.archive.org/save/https://stv.tv/news/politics/1441619-ponsonby-sturgeon-s-speech-brings-speculation-to-an-end/
Take your own personal issues and deal with them elsewhere
Scottish independence is what matters above all else
If for example self ID did become law in Scotland it would only be a law like other law which can at any time in Scotland’s independent future , be changed or abolished altogether
I find it sad and a bit troubling that with all that is going on in british politics
WOS has chosen two things to headline
a) Kezia Dugdale life and times of including anything at all that she does or says
b) self ID
Get a grip , Scottish independence is being weakened by you people continually attacking the only political party that can get us Scottish independence
SNP are not and will never be all things to all people not even self ID protagonists and certainly not self ID antagonists
Scottish independence first by the only means possible which is SNP
Once it’s achieved then you can do all this stuff
Meantime you are a lead weight around the ankle of independence dragging us down
@dr Jim,
Upset? By you? No
Youf just a miserable old git set in his ways who finds accdltance on this site.
Ps I am availzble for PERSONAL consultations.
Are you so upset you’re threatening people now kid, is it not bad enough calling people names you want more
silly wee boy
“Attempts to ditch capable stars like Cherry only to replace them with a politically correct mediocrity is lunacy.”
If the daft wee eejits manage to get Cherry ditched, I seriously hope she goes on to start her own party, because I think she’d take more than half the SNP members with her.
IndyLive crowdfunder only at 78% and will close today.
If you can help folks, please dig deep.
https://indylive.radio/support-indylive/
@Dr Jim,
Threetening you? Nope. I dont do threats. Im calling you out buddy.
Your a keyboard coward. Tel! me to my face Im an arse licker.
Come on be brave. Il! give you my DM
About requesting a S30 from Westminster.
It easier to get forgiveness than permission.
Nicola Sturgeon says that she is sick of Westminster, I’m inclined to be sickened by fearties who just talk talk.If Scotland proceeds with a referendum disregarding the S30 “protocol”, Scotland will quickly learn who are our friends, and that would be no bad thing.
International acceptance? The esteemed EU are certainly not showing the hand of friendship to Catalonia.
Scissors !
That’s all that’s needed here.
One scot @ 4:24
Totally agree, never understood the September date in 2014, every little advantage should be sought, and people have more of a feel-good factor in springtime.
From the article –
“This year has seen a concerted attempt by a small but active faction within the SNP, led by the Young Scots for Independence and Out For Indy groups, to flood the MCC (which in normal times struggles to fill its ranks)”
Some things never change, back in the early ’80s, the YSN (YSI’s old designation) and the ’79 group employed the same tactics for the same reasons.
There was a backlash, the ’79 group was proscribed and most of the senior office bearers of the YSN resigned and joined the Labour Party.
But in the fullness of time literally dozens of the Blighters bounced back to take up senior posts in the SNP, Convener and Leader of the Westminster group of MP’s to name but two.
I’m certainly not your buddy as likely no one is, now give it a rest there’s a good boy, wait till you get your instructions on how to proceed on the world wide web with folk you don’t know
It’s not sensible to behave badly in this way
I rushed home to catch the ITV National news in hope of seeing the First Minister’s
Conference speech.
No one F****** word about the UK’s 3rd largest Party at Conference and not one
Word from the leader of our country’s speech.
Prince Willie has a shot in a Tuk Tuk.
Policeman knocked down.
American involved in UK Car Killing still isn’t return here for the 2nd week.
EU deal still a possibility for the 42nd month running.
Scotland and Catalonia don’t matter a shit on fascist news broadcast!
Get these cancers cut out from my country. I want truth and justice returned to Scotland!
If the Scottish government has abandoned the policy of self ID
and it is a Scottish government policy not an SNP policy
Why is WOS harping on about this over and over again ?
And why are you lot harping on about it over and over again ?
its been dropped by Scottish government because so many people objected
https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/scottish-government-abandons-plans-over-gender-self-identification-following-backlash
Furthermore
Why is Kezia Dugdale always in the limelight here as well ? She’s gone , not an MSP anymore
Move on
Scottish independence is number one priority
It’s all that matters
Everything else can be looked at and considered from a Scotland perspective after we are actually independent
All you are doing by continually raising these defunct issues is causing aggravation in the Indy camp
@Dr Jim
I predicted that would be the reply. No ,ive got you pegged to a T.
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Hey, how about a wee campaign?
Produce some downloadable stickers, urging a boycott of Spain and Spanish products … we could all print them off and run around slapping the things on travel agents windows and bottles of plonk in the supermarkets etc.
The wings logo and web address, popping up all over the place in the real world might raise the profile a bit, which would come in handy in the event of an SNP1/WoS2 scenario at the next Holyrood election.
I’m sure the Catalans would be O.K. with it.
An Irish woman’s view of being British
Before the partition of Ireland in 1921, unionist Protestants such as Edward Carson, who led violent resistance to Home Rule being granted to all of Ireland, described themselves as ‘Irish’, much as unionists in Scotland today proudly claim their Scottish identity.
After partition, unionists in Northern Ireland came to describe themselves as ‘British’. Nationalists still described themselves as ‘Irish’.
Lesley Riddich announces she is giving up speaking at SNP fringe events due to lack of progress in key SNP policy areas.
It begins.
So basically speaking the SNP is self-IDing as a hermaphrodite and screwing itself? Did I get that right?
@Dadsarmy,
I be!ieve its becoming a eunoch. No balls.
Off topic but another issue cropping up regularly is 5G. Melts your brain apparently.
Terry Callachan, its the rev’s site if you dont like the content you can easily stay away nobody is making you read it. If you cant see the potential damage to the Indy cause by Self ID Then thats your problem and note despite what you posted it has not been ditched.
The Tories have already said they will weaponise self ID and with the help of their little friends in the MSN it has the potential to kill Indy stone dead.
I am very unhappy with my fellow SNP members who voted for Rhiannon Spear, and at the moment im considering if I wish to remain a member.
Just checking if I’m banned or still in moderation.
@Proud Cybernat “Spear and Robertson – better to have them inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.”
Curiously I was thinking the same thing. If they are extreme on Twitter they could get away with it as mere punters, but as conveners they’ll soon be sacked / disciplined / retrained.
Keep them close and give them plenty of rope!
@Essexexile
“Have you honestly not realised what we’re up against yet?”
The Scottish Cringe? I’m guessing.
Peeps, I joined the SNP in 2014 and didn’t renew in 2017 as I greatly prefer being totally non-aligned. My opinion is my own and I don’t have to support anyone else’s, I am a maverick and that’s that.
Which makes me peculiarly qualified to point out that a couple of Conveners aren’t going to run the whole SNP, there are loads of other people including its politicians, the conveners don’t get to vote in Holyrood, Westminster or Brussels, they are conveners – and that’s all.
Keep your SNP membership if you mostly believe in the party, don’t throw it away for the sakes of a couple of conveners you don’t approve of.
And do read what Somerville actually said back in June – in Holyrood itself – about the GRA – rather than what agitators are trying to disinform and misinform you.
As far as I can see, Female Rights WILL be preserved. Women with penises will NOT be in the next hospital bed to you. Unless you’re male!
And that’s all I have to say about THAT.
@Dadsarmy,
Maybe people want to leave like you did for their own reasons
whatever they be.
Many women on twitter doing so as we write.
Does anyone – apart from Dr Jim – really believe this?
“The Westminster refusal is not sustainable. We can already see the cracks appearing.
The Labour leaderships in London and Wales have recognised our right to choose.
They make Scottish Labour look even more ridiculous than normal.
The other parties are so lacking in confidence that a referendum can be blocked that they’re now trying to rig the question.
Just like us, they know there is going to be a referendum”.
There is a saving grace for this SNP at the moment, because the general public don’t know this is going on. When I talk to people about this, a lot of them are unaware that this is happening.
The other thing is that when I tell them about it, they don’t believe me. They refuse to believe that a mainstream party like the SNP would do that to women.
Another point is that of the people that are aware of this, a sizable portion think that transgender means transsexual. I was in that camp unil Wings educated me.
Support for trans rights is being inflated by playing on the ignorance of the general public who would be sympathetic to transsexuals but not to some bloke in a dress (under self-id, they wouldn’t even need to wear any female clothing to access woman’s safe places).
Dr Jim @ 7.02pm
Bob Mack appears to have lost the plot along with his ringmaster.
He loves to dish out the insults (just like his hero) but really struggles when he gets a dose of his own medicine.
Rev Stu is obsessed with the trans-gender issue but won’t accept that it’s a side show of little or no relevance to the wider electorate.
Lenny Hartley….
Self ID has been dropped by Scottish government wake up smell the coffee or better still read my earlier post that has the link to prove it has been dropped or for full satisfaction go to the Scottish government website.
If you don’t like the truth go find somewhere else to peddal your nonsense
@Ian B
I can take it and I can dish it out. Im sitting here laughing at you and Dr Jim rather than biting the cat.I think your going to find the Gender agenda is going to bite SNP membefship on the ass.
Dadsarmy @ 8.34
And will they be barred from employment as a nurse in a well woman clinic?
dadsarmy… no you are not right , the SNP is not screwing itself
Self ID has been dropped by the Scottish government it was a policy they considered but dropped it a few months ago ,too controversial .
For some reason WOS and others continue to peddal the story that SNP want to introduce self ID so that men can pretend to be women in order to assault women in areas specific to women such as toilets and changing rooms.
They don’t
It’s easy to read about the Scottish governments decision on the Scottish government website
It’s on the Scottish governments website because it’s Scottish government business and their decision and not specific to SNP
The Tory Party dropped plans for reforming the GRA (to include Self ID). Liz Truss announced that last week.
http://archive.fo/KkAh5
That leaves the SNP as the only Party committed to reforming the GRA to reflect “best international practice”.
Although Fiona Robertson and Rhiannon Spear have unfortunately been elected to office, they did face opposition as understanding of the toxic nature of this issue spreads. But most members are still blissfully unaware of what the implications are. The media will eventually enlighten them.
@Terry Callachan,
So your link is dated July of this year, yet Joanna Cherry is currently warning of the dangers to womens rights.
I thought she was pretty well informed lady tlo. What do you think ?
Bob Mack…..no you are wrong
Self ID will not bite the SNP on the ass
Self ID was a Scottish government policy proposal but they dropped it months ago, too controversial.
Don’t you know that ?
If you don’t go read about it , it’s easy to locate online
If you already know this why peddal your nonsense about the SNP wanting to introduce self ID
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-group-formed-to-uphold-rights-of-women-amid-transgender-row-1-5022552
Terry Callachan, you better tell Joanna Cherry she is wasting her time setting up a group to fight for womans rights viz Gender recognition. I believe that Joanna Cherry knows more what is happening within the party than you. I had several friends at the innaugral meeting in Aberdeen this week and if you dont mind I will take my information from them rather than your sketchy understanding of whats going on within the party.
Apologies for the direct link to the Scotsman
O/T well done to Scotland under 19’s beating Germany tonight and it was no fluke, they outplayed them with some great performances, not often Scotland tops an International football group.
Ian b @ 8.46
Little or no relevance to the wider electorate….. really…
Good to see your thinking Ian,it says so much about ye…
Terry Callahan @ 8.56
Then what’s the consultation on it for then Terry?
Are you saying that people should not be able to legally change sex? Because if so, that’s not about Self-ID but trying to roll back trans rights in general.
Bob Mack…
Scottish government policy not SNP
There are dangers to everyone’s rights at any time of any day , forever
This self ID proposal is only a proposal at present , a great deal of consultation has taken place but agreement on the way forward could not be found.
Yes the link was from June 2019 that’s because the decision not to take the self ID forward was made at that time.
It will be considered again in future I’m sure but the aim is to ensure that women’s rights ,protection, safety is ensured so there is a great deal of discussion still to come.
You and others are becoming troublemakers by continually lying that SNP are trying to introduce law that will allow men to use women’s toilets and changing rooms, your ignorance is astounding.
Read the facts
Here’s a help
Read it all
https://www.gov.scot/publications/statement-gender-recognition/
@ Andrew – it is not possible to change sex, legally or otherwise.
Lenny Hartley
Liz g
Joanna Cherry will be part of a consultation group
One of many groups
The more the better
The reason for the consultation is this…..
In 2002, the European Court of Human Rights found the UK to have breached the European Convention on Human Rights in respect of the lack of legal recognition afforded to trans people.
The UK Parliament therefore enacted the 2004 Act which this Parliament agreed to through a Sewel Motion.
As a result, trans men and women were, for the first time, given the right to seek legal recognition of their lived gender – and, if they were born in the UK, to access an updated birth certificate – and to do so without undergoing gender reassignment surgery or medical
Lenny Hartley
Liz g
Read the lot
https://www.gov.scot/publications/statement-gender-recognition/
Liz @9.07pm
So where’s the evidence that this is an issue of major concern to the wider electorate.
Does it come ahead of health, education and the economy? Are you seriously suggesting that it’s more important to your average SNP supporter than Independence?
Capella..
Correct
But that is not what self ID is about is it
https://www.gov.scot/publications/statement-gender-recognition/
RE: Section 30. Was it just my imagination or did the last section 30 order not require the House of Commons and House of Lords to pass legislation?
If so and with the current lack of party discipline a UK governemnt could quite easily say ok to a section 30 order safe in the knowledge that it’ll be voted down. If so we are now where Catalonia is. It will effectively never be legal to hold a Indyref.
Proof that so many people don’t really know what the gender ID discussion is all about
You only really need to read this one link from the Scottish government website to get the picture
https://www.gov.scot/publications/statement-gender-recognition/
Here’s a little bit of what Somerville said back in June:
“For that reason, we will not introduce legislation to Parliament immediately.
Consultation on draft bill
Instead it is my intention to publish a draft Gender Recognition (Scotland) Bill later this year.
The Bill will be formally introduced to Parliament only when there has been a full consultation on the precise details contained within that draft bill. ”
https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/statement-on-gender-recognition
————
And as for the women only spaces:
“I will also consider the relationship between gender recognition legislation and the Equality Act 2010.
And outline the steps the government intends to take next, both to deliver dignity for trans men and women and continue to address concerns raised about, for example, access to women only spaces.”
Put it like this; if the GRA does NOT fit in with the 2010 Equality Act, then someone, many perhaps, will ask for a judicial review, and the new GRA would be struck down and not receive Royal Assent.
I have never doubted that since Sturgeon became leader of the SNP all her energies have used to hamper Scottish independence. There are things she has implemented and promoted that have not helped the indy cause and could have been done once indy was achieved without alienating voters. As I have said before I believe she is terrified of independence and the years of logistical negotiations that would follow.
Where are the idea`s, where is the passion, where is there determination.
Nowhere.
@Terry Callachan,
I have read it. Produced by Ms Somerville who is SNP cabinet sec. Tel! you a little secret. I have a daughter who works in government. I know whats happening and how consu!tations are exc!uding certain views on this. Words and actions can be very different mate.
Andrew says:
15 October, 2019 at 9:10 pm
“Are you saying that people should not be able to legally change sex? ”
The author Hans Christian Andersen said all that needs to be said on the subject nigh on 200 years before it became an issue.
But in case you can’t be arsed looking it up or are too brainwashed or braindead to recognise the relevant story.
…No! you cannot change sex in reality.
So why should you be able to do so with a legal document?
And it is a gross and unpardonable infringement of everyone’s human rights for a government to bully and coerce them into publicly pretending to believe something, that they know to be patently untrue.
Ian b @ 9.16am
You’ve already said that You consider it a non issue are You also saying that
You think this won’t impact on the health education and economic activity of women?
And
As for how the majority of the electorate feel hasn’t yet been tested here…. what I and others are doing are warning that this is a vote looser.
And yes some woman are saying that this is more important than independence to them it’s not a non issue and when it hits mainstream awareness most women will be persuaded to oppose it….. Easily…
@Bob Mack
You’ll be able to find the GAR public Consultation here when it comes out:
https://consult.gov.scot/
Here’s the old GRA consultation, closed March 2018:
https://consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/
and here’s where you can still download the consultation, even though it’s closed. Actually some of these do take late entries – if they can manage it:
https://consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/user_uploads/sct1017251758-1_gender_p4–3-.pdf
and here’s where you’ll be able to find the specific consulation when it becomes available – later this year it seems:
oops, that’d be too many links, I’ll post it afterwards.
Ian B over 50% of the voting population of Scotland are going to be told morning noon and night that the SNP are taking away their rights and Male Paedophiles, Rapists and Sexual predators will have access to woman only safe areas, toilets, changing rooms etc by the simple expedient of saying that they now Self ID as a Woman. The under 1% of the population who might wish to do this will be nothing more than collateral damage.
Terry Callachan it is your ignorance and arrogance that is astounding, you have not a scooby, “As a result, trans men and women were, for the first time, given the right to seek legal recognition of their lived gender – and, if they were born in the UK, to access an updated birth certificate – and to do so without undergoing gender reassignment surgery or medical treatment.” i guess you think that The aboveyou copied and pasted is self Id, it is not, that is what happens now. i know this because I had a colleague at work who reassigned, he went from Mr to Mrs without surgery or medical treatment although he had to live as a woman for two years before she could be considered for gender reassignment surgery if she wished it.
Turkey drags politician out of car, murders her, films it, sends it to Turkish tv channels who triumphantly broadcast it.
https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1184166716080820226
Turkey is an EU candidate country and NATO member.
Silence from the EU and NATO.
@Terry callachan “Self ID was a Scottish government policy proposal but they dropped it months ago, too controversial.”
No they didn’t drop it, they delayed it. The draft Bill will be published “later this year” and be the basis for consultation. The Bill won’t be formally entered to Holyrood till after the consultation has been processed.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/statement-gender-recognition/
its unbelievable how me and my wife spent years from the cradle til! now warning our girls of the dangers of assault.
Subtle at first, then more open!y as they grew older.
Theh used to laugh at us till they had their own daughters.
Now I hear the same warnings and rules being put down for my grandchildren by my girls.
Theh sil! not tolerate anything or anybody that creates potential danger for their family, indy or no.
SNP should take heed.
Bob Mack @ 9.26
Your quite right Bob…. I’m hearing from SNP members who are activists and they are being shut out of the process…
What I’m starting to wonder is that mibbi Nicola can’t drop it. That she is somehow being pushed along into it.
I can’t see how But I also can’t see that she isn’t aware of how toxic it is, her own activists have told her often enough!
Did I post this or did it go missing?
https://consult.gov.scot/consultation_finder/?sort_on=iconsultable_enddate&sort_order=ascending&advanced=1&tx=Gender+recognition+act&st=forthcoming&in=&de=
@Liz G,
You should have a look at Les!ey Riddichs twitter feed.
Informative.
Hey Bob Mack. Nice try. You’re fooling no one here. Jog on. We see you.
No doubt you’ll have some half-arsed response to this but we’re not all so gullible here as to take your bait. We see you. We know what you’re all about. Now jog on.
Dadsarmy…
It’s been dropped for now, consultation will continue but all this scaremongering that is going on is just stupid , the EU law forced changes to UK law , changes to U.K. law is forcing a review of Scottish law , it has to be reviewed , no choice , that does not mean there is a danger to women and that is what WOS and many on here are saying but even worse they are saying that SNP are doing this.
It is Scottish government that is doing it
Not SNP
There will be further consultation
A bill
Then a vote
But for now it’s not happening and has effectively been dropped til more discussion takes place
That is good
Discussion and consultation is good
Scottish independence should not be dragged down by all the nonsense being said on here about men using women’s toilets and changing rooms
Apart from the enormous elephant in the room, I thought day 3 of the SNP conference went well. The atmosphere was a bit low key, perhaps because of the vastness of the venue, perhaps because of all the underlying unresolved issues.
Keith Brown spelt out the reason for a S30, not permission, but a guarantee that Westminster will obey the law. Alyn Smith made a rousing speech about staying in the EU. Nicola’s speech ticked all the boxes (except one) and got the overwhelming support it deserved.
I haven’t resigned yet but I haven’t accepted that the Transgender issue has been resolved yet.
Jury still out.
Beginning to think there is maybe something to that 5G conspiracy theory.
/\(O.o)/\
t42
Haven’t you noticed – There is a list of “Good Countries” and “Bad Countries”.
It is not deeds that matter – It is who does them that counts.
@Proud Cybernat,
A conspiracy theorist eh? Thats fine, I dont particularly like you either.
You probably contribute to UFO sites as well.
@Terry callachan
Yes, but it’s important to be accurate, It hasn’t been dropped, just delayed, and there will be a draft by the end of this year. But GRA won’t be debated in Holyrood this year, and if the same timetable as the last consulation was used, it wouldn’t be debated in 2020 either. So, 2021 at the earliest.
But it has NOT been dropped!
@Proud Cybernat..Did you ever act as Von Klinkerhoffen in Alo alo. I have a vision of you al! in black with black fedora and cigarette ho!der rooting out these Britjsh agents, whilst sitting in your living room at the computer. Ha ha.
Actually it’s pretty certain looking at the dates of the first consultation, that it wouldn’t get into Holyrood this Parlieamentary session, so it would be 2021-2026 if the SNP got elected.
And quite frankly my dear, if it comes to Holyrood Elections 2021 and we’ve Brexited without Indy Ref 2, the SNP who would have betrayed their multiple mandate can GTF.
Which means basically, GRA is not a problem.
Bob Mack
But who is hiding the painting of “The Phoney Madonna with the Big Baw Sack”?
Dadsarmy @ 10.14
It will still be a problem all the Holyrood Party’s support it.
FFS people wake up, its not the GRA consultation that is the problem , its that it will be weaponised against us by the MSM and Tory propaganda machine in the run up to Indyref2 . Therefore as long as its on the agenda its a danger to Indy. It needs to be scrapped, not parked . a proper consultation can be held once Indy has been won. Good luck to any party trying to bring it forward once people know the issues.
Nicola Sturgeon:”…by the end of this year I will demand the transfer of power which will put the legality of that referendum beyond any doubt.”
Shortbread Radio: “Nicola Sturgeon has told the SNP conference that she is to ask permission to hold a second independence referendum next year.”
Note the two versions of the use of language: one (the truth) is assertive, the other (the BBC’s *ahem* impartial assessment) is that of a supplicant.
The misreporting is of course deliberate and designed to convey the impression that the FM must beg at Westminster’s table and wait for Baw Jaws to say aye or nay.
Their modus operandi is that NS under no circumstances is to be accorded equal status in the reporting of S30.
And there is something else. NS KNOWS the chances of BoJo of agreeing on a S30 are vanishingly small. And her language is not exactly designed to elicit a favourable response.
This is deliberate. There will be no more cap in hand.
For by Christmas the Referendum Bill will be law.
Game on Rev. Whatcha gonna do? We need Wings back at its finest fighting Scotland’s cause,
@Colonel B!imp iv,
Guy Ritchie ?
Juteman 2.26pm. Sinn Fein was infiltrated at the highest level by British intelligence, it’s an absolute certainty that the SNP are as well. And that would be easier to do.
Dropped as in dropped below the horizon
We will see what the future brings
Good speech from Nicola
Liz G
Precisely and it is a UK wide activism too. This is why I can’t see any point in throwing the baby out with the bath water.
The only way of keeping our party sane is staying in and fighting for core issues on independence, social justice and the environment. Fringe issues affecting a tiny percentage of people should not drive the party agenda. Of course they can be discussed and those that use intemperate or coercive language to close down discussion should be suspended. There are far too many major issues to deal with to join Boris in the ditch on this one.
Perhaps having an independence referendum will focus minds. Idle hands are the devil’s playground.
Liz g @ 9.40pm
I get that it’s important to you but there is zero evidence to suggest it’s of any significance to the wider electorate who, as survey after survey has confirmed, are more concerned about the issues I mentioned earlier.
Some posters on this forum in a pool of less than 100 people are getting excited about the issue but you need to face facts it’s an issue for very small percentage of female voters.
Lenny Hartley @ 9.43pm
Your claim that this is an issue of concern to all women voters is just not backed up with any facts. Just because it’s important to you doesn’t make it a big deal for others.
As to your claims about paedophiles, rapists and sexual predators this is just scaremongering on a grand scale that, fortunately, most of the women who I know and speak to don’t buy.
@Bobp,
Yep, and Steaknife compromised the IRA whose checks were very thorough. Undoubtedly there are peop!e high in the SNP working for the State.
It would seem a natufa! thing to do to keep
tabs on potentia! problems.
No doubt we’l! find out in 100 years time.
I have only spoken to a very small number of trans-women and trans-men, and I came away with the impression that the current law does not work for them and they feel deeply unhappy about it. So my understanding is there is a clear need to do something about it.
And that clearly won’t be easy at all. I am no expert, and I certainly cannot think about how this could be done well. But I do not think that just because it is very complex self-declaration (which is superficially easy) is a solution, as it would complete hollow out the Equalities Act.
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I see a parallel with the protection offered to young people. Young people have many special protections in law, many of which ends specifically at 18, but because the reason why young people may need specific protection doesn’t necessarily end exactly with 18, some protections are flexible. For example it is perfectly allowable for courts to treat 18/19/20 year olds as if they were under 18 if the court decides that the reason why there are special rules for 18 year olds still apply to these 18/19/20 year olds. But it is the court that takes the decision. Young adults (and their lawyers) can say they should be treated as youths, but they cannot simply declare themselves youths, and there are rules that apply in which circumstances they can/cannot be treated as such.
And I wonder, shouldn’t the same apply for transgender men/women?
i have general advice for NS…AS and any SNP politician that wants to be taken seriously…
….stop that stupid pre word chuckle, its fuckin pathetic.
and get rid of the stupit multi coloured SNP letters..,they cry transgenderism madness,it makes us look like lefty nutjobs.
@Heart of Galloway
From Sturgeon:
“We are already working to update the independence prospectus. And I can confirm today that before the end of this year, I will demand the transfer of power that puts the legality of a referendum beyond any doubt.”
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17970382.read-nicola-sturgeons-full-conference-speech-snp19/
or, as the BBC would put it:
“Please pretty please dear Mr Johnson my bestest pal, can we have permission to pursue our self-determination, please? If you can find a spare minute, oh great one.”
@ Bob Mack
Nice try. Must try harder.
@Ian B,
Oh they will buy if they have children. Watch if it becomes
law.
christian schmidt
sarge is over at the coffee machine telling troopy how big an arse you are.
@Proud Cybernat,
Il! do what I can. Just for you.
Heart of Galloway@10.23pm
An excellent post. One of a few jewels amongst a lot of dross.
You would think looking at the posts above that Sturgeons speech had never happened today. Where is the analysis, good or bad, of her speech. Wings BTL is getting like the Britnat media. Propaganda by omission.
If you can’t say anything bad about the SNP/Scotgov then just ignore it. That sadly is how Wings BTL is going. I haven’t read any of Mr Alexanders posts for a time but he must be feeling right at home these days.
Good speech by Nicola, starting to believe that there will be a new Independence referendum next year after all.
Clapper57@3.12pm
Another jewel amongst a lot of dross. I agree totally with your post.
HandandShrimp @ 10.31
Absolutely,I always point out that Independence is the surest route to stopping or reversing this stupidity.
Westminster will bring it in eventually because there’s big money behind it and we can never impact votes there.
I’ve never been a member of the SNP, though always voted.for them. For two reasons : they were the only Scottish party (at least the only viable Scottish party) secondly because Independence was their agenda. In saying that, there always have been very many of their policies I disagreed with personally, but – Independence and they were they only viable vehicle.
As for SNP personnel, I have many issues there also, again choked on for Independence. But one SNP member I have always had an issue with (though never disseminated it abroad much*) is the person appearing in this picture and article, from way back in 2012.
The reason I’ve always had an issue, was specifically this picture and the reasons behind this picture (the issue should be obvious)
Yet again, I choked on it the last many years, because ‘Independence’ and benefit of the doubt and all that. By their deeds shall you know them.
Now it may be, I will ultimately laud that members successful campaign at delivering independence. Post Indy I’d be free from obligation and may exercise my right to be biased because of a narrow historical concern.
Though small concerns have only mounted over the years and not because of the topic addressed today, that’s just one of a number of uneasy ‘issues’
http://bit.ly/2IU7AK1
*Yes, it does lay me open to a diatribe about being a ‘splitter’ or subversive etc. I have never disseminated this abroad or posted this image & article previously for that reason. But since it’s now open season, it’s cathartic for me to finally get it off my chest now – if obliquely.
@Cubby,
You want us to start fighting about Nico!as speech now as wel! ?
Leave it till tomorrow.
Cubby
Colin is way more restrained than some of the latest stuff. I think Colin might be unimpressed to be honest.
Still no one can say Wings is just a cipher for the SNP. It is clearly a separate entity. The Yoonish types can’t demand that Nicola rein it in or apologise for the content. Stu pretty much has a free hand.
Ah well, that’s that then, the excitement (yawn) over for a day or three. Next we see BoJo screwed over in the HoC on Saturday and forced to write a precisedly worded letter (by the Benn Act) gagging for an extension, or face the wrath on Monday 21st October of “a Scottish Court” as the BBC (ignorant pigs with apologies to the pigs) would describe our highest court, the Court of Session Inner House. That would be three Scottish Judges in full wrath – not a pretty sight.
Constable – arrest that man!
Bob Mack@10.44pm
Someone once posted I was the Wings resident fight club member. I think you have easily stolen that from me. You can decide if that’s an accolade you want.
I prefer facts, opinions, argument and discussion but do give in to insults by return when insulted by others.
Bob mack 10.33pm. Yes in a FOI in about a 100 yrs time it will all come out about how their dirty tricks dept saved the union, or hopefully not as the case may be.
HandandShrimp@10.46pm
Good point.
Ian B says:
“… there is zero evidence to suggest it’s of any significance to the wider electorate”
The issue is not about the whimsical notions of a handful of hedonistic fantasists and their quest for acceptance.
It is more about nipping in the bud the ambitions of a relatively small but well-organized group of power-crazed zealots, who seek to control how we think about everything.
@Iain Mohr,
Not a good look I agree, but she was then Health Sec and ob!iged to participate regardless of anything else for the sake of the contestants as well.
Hindsight is wonderful. That yeaf ATOS made over £100 million in profit from asessing the disabled.
Who says crime doesnt pay?
Fringe issues affecting a tiny percentage of people should not drive the party agenda
You do understand that women constitute 52% of the population and, therefore, of the voters? Plus, most have partners, children, parents and friends who will vote in solidarity to defend women’s rights.
That’s an awfully large percentage of the voting public you’re prepared to alienate.
Bob Mack @ 10.36pm
Again you have zero evidence to substantiate this claim.
I have 2 girls. My wife and I have discussed the issue with them and they are not concerned. I think, like many, they can see that there is a huge amount of scaremongering and inaccuracies being written around this issue.
@Ian B
I was a clinical Psychologist who worked with such offenders.Here and abroad. Hundreds of them.
I know every trick in the book and how they gain access to their target of choice Whats your expertise ?
Col.BlimpIV @10.54pm
You’re way off topic for me. My issue here is the contention by some posters on this site that every female voter is concerned about gender recognition.
I see no evidence to support this. I have already asked Rev Stu on twitter to explain how he can legitimately state that this is an issue of concern to all women and, guess what, he blocked me.
Onescot@4.34
Early September is actually the best time to have a Referendum.
It allows for a whole Spring and Summer of campaigning, rallies, marches in reasonable weather.
Nobody really wants to go campaigning in the dark nights of Winter, which is what would have to happen in the event of a Spring referendum.
Anyway I believe Nicola.
Capella
Given what you have accurately quoted me as saying I am at a loss to understand why you think I would wish to alienate 52% of the population. Whom do you think I mean when I say someone is attempting to drive the party agenda with a fringe issue?
Bob Mack @ 11.09pm
That’s good to hear BM. You also have a daughter who works in Government and appears to take her work home with her?
I have no expertise in this field. As I’m fed up saying it’s an issue of concern for a very small percentage of voters. You, clearly, fall into that small minority.
It’s not an issue that will have any bearing on whether or not Scotland becomes and Independent country.
https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/statement-on-gender-recognition
(my bold)
There’a an awfie amount of heat about this issue but very little light.
It doesnt have to be every female voter. It just has to be enough to affect the SNP vote.
@ HandandShrimp – my apologies – I thought you were implying that this was a trivial issue and we shouldn’t be discussing it. But on rereading your post I realise that isn’t what you meant.
Other people, however, do seem to dismiss this as unimportant. So my comment should really be directed at them. Sorry.
@Ian B,
You disapprove of my daughter having an opinion ? Not affected by the Official Secrets Act fortunately.
I think of myself as an independence supporter not as an SNP member or as a Wings member. No personal loyalty to either club. I contribute monies to support independence as I see fit. I see both the SNP and Wings, Barrhead boy and WGD etc etc as vehicles to independence. The only loyalty I have is to Scottish independence.
If Sturgeon does not deliver a referendum next year as promised then my support will go. If on balance Wings starts to read like Colin Alexanders posts then my support will go. The latter is getting closer than the former.
There do not seem to be that many posters on Wings that fall into the same category as myself. Plenty have tried to paint me as an SNP stooge, plenty as a disrupter, a Britnat or a Wings acolyte or an arse. I’m just a Scot who wants his country to be independent as it used to be 312 years ago who doesn’t take crap from other posters.
People with a loyalty to Wings slagging off the SNP and vice versa is not a good look for a Scottish independence blog ( assuming it is an independence blog ).
Ian B
It is the nature of politics, most who engage believe their view to be the “correct” one and that it is their place to lead public opinion rather than to follow it.
Sometimes they can be a force for good e.g. vocal minorities campaigning against slavery, winning through in the end other times not so good e.g. politicians calling for regime change for humanitarian reasons and turning a country that was dangerous and unpleasant for many, into a living hell for all.
Democracy is the time-limited dictatorship of the largest minority … we must be careful about who we permit to do the dictating.
No wonder the rev gets so mad with people who don’t read a thing properly.
Some!! Women are pointing out the unintended consequences of self ID.
These women are prepared to take this mainstream and campaign against it.
And that your Government are prepared to criminalise anyone who says Trans Woman are Not Women is not a minor issue it will cost votes.
And it will likely be weaponised against the SNP during the Referendum…
I no longer support any colonial administrators such as the SNP, Greens or their Unionist counterparts at Holyrood, so GRA and other colonial legislation is for the Holyrood colonials to argue about.
———————————-
Nicola is still stating that the UK state will cave to demands for an indyref s30 but talks of them attempting to rig it as proof they are caving in. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of the s30 process.
Nicola saying an s30 indyref will happen cos she believes it will happen, is simply not good enough from the FM and SNP.
————————————–
Brexit: The talk now is a re-hashed May-type deal with a border in the Irish Sea, so a special deal for N.Ireland.
Effectively, N. Ireland will be allowed to stay in, with the rest of the UK leaving, if the deal gets approved.
The SNP have repeatedly said a special deal for N.Ireland only is unacceptable and they have also repeatedly said they won’t allow Scotland to be dragged out the EU against our will.
(Credit to the SNP for saying this).
But, potentially, that’s the big SNP test that’s coming up.
Will the SNP deliver on their promises to keep Scotland in the EU – by exercising Scotland’s sovereignty? (If they do, there’s grounds for hope they’ll deliver on independence too).
On the other hand, if N.I gets a special deal while Scotland is dragged out the EU along with England and Wales, Breeks will not be the only one disgusted by the SNP’s failure to defend Scotland’s sovereignty.
@Cubby,
Always difficult when someone disturbs your life view of how things should be as you wish them to be.
Think about this though. You are asking the owner of this site not to express any views that contradict your own because we pay him. He cannot think outside a narrow box which we create for him.
He becomes in effect nothing more than an echo chamber. Why then do we need him?
Just open every lost with SNP good, media bad and we will discuss the same points over and over.
He is challenging us to think, to reflect to _re_evaluate our preconcdeved ideas, and people find that difficult, hence the anger and resentment.
I like you Cubby. You are flat out, no corners.
I like that. I would ask you to remain.from a lersonal perspective.
My knuckles are now red raw from typng.
Capella
No problem. It is a bizarrely tortured subject. Confusion abounds on all sides.
@Liz g
Compare the wording of Q20 with what Somerville said in June:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-soul-of-the-snp/comment-page-1/#comment-2494229
They don’t match.
There’s a depth of misunderstanding about this whole thing. THAT is something the ScotGov will need to address. So far, they’ve failed, and allowed partisan misunderstanding to prevail and totally cloud the issue.
Instead of sensible debate, there’s a turf war going on.
Anyone believing this is not going to damage our cause is dreaming. Earlier on twitter just after Spears had been elected someone I follow tweeted that they’d finished with the SNP after that. Not only that she was going to campaign against the SNP and against independence.
I tweeted back that I could understand her anger at the SNP but that indy was bigger than that and to reconsider that option. I was inundated with tweets from lots of others telling me I was wrong and that an Indy Scotland that neglected women’s rights was worse than staying in the UK.
I was accused of homophobia, and just wanting to watch women stripping in their changing rooms, it was mental. Eventually I blocked 3 or 4 and got out of there sharpish.
Make no mistake women are angry about these elections, and the fact they believe they’re being ignored over this issue.
Cubby
I have seen many posters here being accused of being Britnats but have no recollection of anybody singing the praises of any aspect of British anything, or arguing against any point that is central to the desire for self-determination.
I seriously doubt that the Yoon gene-pool is sufficiently voluminous to spare enough with the subtlety and self-control that would be necessary for a colony of the beggars to survive this environment for more than a day or two.
There are however many who support independence but are not overly enamoured with the SNP, where else can they come but here?
Bob Mack
Cubby is just beginning to realise that the other side of independence his or her kind will not be in charge, it will be business as usual, with middle of the road people running the new Scotland.
@Bob Mack 10:58pm
Yeah, I am/was pragmatic enough to understand sometimes one can have situations forced on oneself and even sacrifice some principles in the climbing strive to get in a position ‘to do greater good’ (if not merely to save ones career (been there) Sometimes though, there can be a principle too far and I’ve also been there.
That one would have been too far for me, personally.
Dadsarmy @ 11.52
I’m not misunderstanding anything.
The Revs not misunderstanding.
Joanna Cherry is not misunderstanding.
Joan McAlpine is not misunderstanding
And none of us are particularly hysterical either.
I’ve looked at this issue for sometime and in considerable depth including in Ireland and Canada and how it’s playing out there.
I’ve looked at both sides of the debate and formed an opinion.
So stop firing links from the SNP at me!
Ahundred oh dam it I’ll just call you the biggest idiot on Wings @12.03am
It’s not even worth the effort to ask you to clarify your nonsense because you regularly just post a lot of crap that means nothing.
“His or her kind” you mean not a bloody idiot like you.
@Dadsarmy,
Strategic withdrawal required methinks.
@Liz g
That’s not an SNP link, it’s a ScotGov link, and it was a statement in Holyrood, not at some fringe event at some conference somewhere.
Question 20 clearly contradicts it when it tells the interviewee that “The SNP has announced its intention to implement “self-ID” legislation, whereby physically-male people whill have unrestricted access to all female-only spaces and service”.
That is incorrect, so Q20 is based on a false premise.
Anyways, people will believe what they like, rather than seek out the truth.
Cubby
I know it’s hard, but people like me win and folks like you, well, they generally lose, but kinda like it….so they can moan all day long
btw, you’re one of the 99, take your pick, but I am the hundredth
Dadsarmy @ 12.21
It would seem so,but keep doing the research and ye never know ye might get it…
Cubby
ahundredthidiot sayd:
“…with middle of the road people running the new Scotland.”
Mabe this is what he meant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2sJ5Fz90tU
When I was young and admitted to hospital, I had to tick a box for my sex. It had to be M or F. I don’t know when that changed to gender with the choice of M or F, but it did change. Advance in time and one may choose Gender M or F or Other. In the last decade and a half I had some acquaintances who told me they were transgender. They told me about the mental and emotional suffering they experienced because of feeling that they were in the body of the wrong gender. I empathised with them and and accepted their right to be transgender. Then I discovered that some masculine to feminine genders dressing as women, and were taking female hormones and having body hair and facial hair removed, but had not intention of having genital corrective surgery. This gave me pause.
As I’ve reflected on this phenomenon, I’ve realised that the problem is with the word “Gender”. When I was young gender was used for nouns, not people. Nouns are words, and had gender and people had sex. Nouns were feminine or masculine or neuter. People were male or female. Feminine and masculine, when used of people were used to indicate persons of one sex acting and behaving with mannerisms which were usually regarded as those of the opposite sex.
Little was generally known about people who were intersex, or hermaphrodites as they were then known; persons who had both male and female sex organs. More is known about those persons now, and how some were designated as one sex when they were predominantly the opposite. Now some wish to choose to the opposite sex from that with which they were identified at birth.
With as many as 100 genders now being proposed, the calling of persons by a name that refers to nouns, that is “Gender”, seems to be reduced to the absurd. The term “Sex” is biologically based. The term “Gender” is based in psychology and emotions. Saying this is not to diminish the experience of those who are uncomfortable with their sex, with their bodies, or to ridicule their desire to be the opposite sex. It does not imply that they should be ridiculed or excluded from society. They do need acceptance. But does that acceptance include Gender self ID? Take away the word “Gender” and replace it with the word “Sex” Should persons be able to sex self ID? If we say “Yes” then we have a society in which distinction of sexes becomes meaningless. If persons with penis and testicles can self ID as women and people with breasts and vagina and uterus can self ID as male, Male and female distinctions become meaningless.
What about males who take hormones and grow breasts, have body hair and facial hair removed, but retain penis and testicles and self ID as women? We have women becoming fathers. What about females who have their breasts removed, but retain vagina and uterus and self ID as men? We have men becoming mothers.
Are we to deny such persons a right to be half man and half woman? I don’t have an answer to that question.
dadsarmy
ALL information is human. Humans are opinionated and emotional beings.
all we have is what we choose to believe.
and btw, Liz G just kicked your arse!
@Liz g
Did the Mermaids ever get back to you to tell you they operate in England and English schools, NOT Scotland and Scottish schools?
@ahundredthidiot
I can take people to the published statements of a Scottish Government minister that contradicts that Question 20 and the whole premise that women with penises will be able to share all female only spaces and services, but I can’t force them to read.
Sorry about that.
Habib Steele
That was far too sober, sensible, honest and non-partisan for this “debate”.
You must be an undercover Yoon spy, trying to bamboozle us.
Habib Steele
can you 77 types not come up with better names? the double barrel gives you away…….so too, the ‘jimmy name’ followed by a geographical location in Scotland…
…..Jesus, the security services have dropped a long way since
In March 2017 an Independence referendum before the end of 2020 was odds on with Ladbroke at 4/7. Today after the First Ministers speech it’s 6/4 against.
I didn’t catch what paper it was on, but Sky had one up that Downing St would reject the demand for a referendum.
I suppose that would be progress compared to 2017 when the section 30 letter was simply ignored.
It was a good speech if you can believe the FM. Sunday, she said she would ask (again) in a few weeks. Today, it’s in the next 2 1/2 months. Are 10 to 11 weeks a few?
In 2017 Scotland was going to be given the chance to decide to stay in the EU. Three weeks ago the FM was telling an Italian newspaper that we Scotland be independent someday and would rejoin th EU.
Can envision a cast iron, world class, diamond standard, quintiple mandate, being sought in 2021.
Scotland needs a leader, not a manager.
Bob Mack@11.41pm
Sorry Bob but you don’t get me. The site owner can write what he wants. Wings is a vehicle to me not some sort of club that I am loyal to. I have no personal loyalty or concept that I am a friend of the site owner.
Similarly with Sturgeon I judge she is good for Scottish independence – that may change. Similarly with Salmond I judge he is good for Scottish independence – that may change. If I judge Wings is doing more harm to Scottish independence than good on balance then I move on and take my support elsewhere. None of the above are personal friends or family. I may respect them or admire them but as I say that can change.
“He is challenging us to think……..” Bob – I do think but I base it on evidence/ facts and logical analysis as well as passion and strongly expressed arguments. The sort of characteristics that drew so many to Wings in the first place including myself. Some of the characteristics have disappeared recently – for ever? – that remains to be seen.
Bob, I do think and that is why I came to support independence at a young age. I have an independent mind.
Dadsarmy @ 12.34
Honestly,your reading and comprehension…
I never said I would contact Mermaids….
And my actual contact is/was at the conference,so not yet.
But I haddnt forgotten…..as soon as I find out I’ll get back to you
Cubby
I am worried about you, I think you mean well.
You should take some time out to relax….take your mind off things…..escape….I suggest a big sofa, a nice cuppa….put your feet up and watch The Fifth Element.
Nicola Sturgeon waving the LGBTQIetc flag today really summed it up for me. Parts of the SNP leadership would rather stay in the Union but have full, bonkers self-ID rights than have independence.
dadsarmy
Yesindeedy! and the removal of section whatsitsnunber had nothing whatever to do with permitting/enforcing of the promotion of homosexuality in schools. LOL!
PS
I can declare without fear of contradiction that “many of my closest friends are gay” … How could it be otherwise – I was an active member of the SNP for more than 25 years.
The idiot@12.28am
Nope you are just a bog standard idiot with the emphasis on bog.
The idiot@12.48am
No you are not worried about me but you are clearly an idiot. This ends now because there is nothing to be gained from getting involved with an idiot.
@Liz g
Well, you did say this 3 days ago: “Dadsarmy I saw your post on the other thread about Mermaids and I am checking it out…
I will get back to you as soon as I get a reply”
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-broad-church/#comment-2493500
“as soon as I get a reply which mentions nothing about a contact but does imply you’re asking Mermaids. Honestly, your communication skills – and reading ones … !
https://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/transgender-training.html
“The overall purpose is to reduce the number of incidents of HBT (homophobic, biphobic and transphobic) bullying in primary and secondary schools in England by transforming the culture of how schools prevent and respond to HBT bullying in a sustainable way.”
“in England”
Anyways, I’m off. Some sifi to make a change.
oh Cubby
that hurts my feelings….I may rib you in future, but happy to hear you will not reply!
Dadsarmy @ 1.00
It’s not my fault if you see an implication in something ye read and take it to mean something it doesn’t.
You’d have done better to clarify.
Which is where we were a fair few posts ago….Aye!
Heart of Galloway @ 2.40 pm
You have a strong heart 🙂
Scotland Tonight
Catalonia discussion. A Spanish Professor of Hispanic studies from Glasgow uni states bluntly that the prison sentences were the minimum they should have got. – objectively he says. He says they should have been charged with rebellion and given much longer sentences.
Where on earth do Glasgow Uni get these people from? Is there a pool of fascists that they can pick from to fill their uni posts.
Bloody idiots and Britnats BTL. You have a poster saying people are tractors because they post supporting the SNP and Scottish independence and now you have some suggestion that bookies will determine Scotlands future.
Good to still hear some true Indy voices here.
Your own bug bears and choice of poll questions really are a great poultice Stuart. SIU and other poisonous dross well drawn out.
Exposing that is useful =) and hard to disguise. Though I understood that weaponising against the SNP was the Tories job?
However, Independence first.
I am interested in discussing winning Independence for Scotland!
Where is good to discuss and debate that folks?
Oh! And WELL DONE Nicola Sturgeon 🙂
As always, an amazing speech, strong interviews and a strong and able team speaking up for Scotland 🙂
I am now so far away from SNP thinking it feels like I’m on another planet, and luckily for me, the meteor that is coming is set to miss mine.
I cannot see beyond the gaping open goal to secure for Scotland an ironclad Constitutional Backstop to be CERTAIN that Scotland’s Sovereignty will be respected, and have international powers external to the UK defending Scotland’s legitimate and lawful interests.
Irrespective of how you want Independence to be achieved, in ALL scenarios, across the whole spectrum of scenarios, in the short term or the long term, this Scottish Backstop is a failsafe; an essential insurance against our unlawful colonial subjugation, and securing that failsafe ought to be right at the top of the political agenda.
But instead of fighting for our own Scottish Backstop, even with Ireland showing us the way, we instead seem absolutely and inexplicably determined to give Westminster a Backstop, a non-negotiable failsafe option for them to veto Scotland’s progress towards Indy by denying it a Section 30.
Please explain this to me, why the fk are we doing this? Are we really this amateurish in our international relations?
To me it boils down to ‘utter determination for not doing the right things, and going the extra mile to do the wrong things’. I repeat what I’ve said before… if you accept that SNP has not been nobbled, what material differences would we be seeing if they had been?
I came to Wings via Bella – I lang syne gave up on Bella.
I am now on the verge of giving-up on Wings, when I read some of the shite on here. I am particularly put-off by all this trans nonsense. Which by the way will have a serious impact on the SNP, I believe.
I have never been a member of the SNP, but, have constantly voted for them – I am now thinking of not voting in any election prior to Indyref2 – when I will definitely vote Yes to Independence.
What really gets on my tits at the moment is – Ian Blackford & Co, repeatedly have stood-up in the HoC and said: “We will not allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its will.
Well, as soon as 15 days from now that could happen, and all their talk will have been hot air.
Joanna Cherry was prepared to go to court to prevent a No Deal Brexit at the end of this month.
When is she prepared to go to the same court to prevent Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will?
At the very least, surely we could, using the law, force Westminster to agree to the Section 30 Order to enable the Independence referendum.
@Socrates MacSporran,
Please dont give up Socrates. The fact is we need people like you to fight the corner. Too many on here shout down and try to silence reasonable dissent with the common SNP fan club view.
We know something is amiss and yet others plough on in blind faith and obedience to whatever they are told.
If we let them win we are lost. We must push and push again against the comfort many are happy to settle into.
We know they have tried go oust Joanna Cherry from her seat.
Lesley Riddcoch is giving up talking to SNP forums due to !ack of commitmet from the SNP on manifesto
pledges.
We must rail against this and not lie down. It is our Independence and not solely the possesion of the SNP.
@Socrates MacSporran
“ I am now thinking of not voting in any election prior to Indyref2”
Tempting, but why not give the SNP one last chance to prove they ARE genuine about Indy Ref 2 in 2020 – and vote for them for the General Election which is likely to come after an extension to Brexit, and before the UK leaves the EU?
If it gets to Holyrood Elections then is the time to turn the back on the SNP perhaps – but surely not before?
@Breeks,
Here is the sad fact. At this moment in time the voters for Indy and the SNP are in a kind of symbiotic re!ationship.
One cannot exist without the other having no a!ternative host available. That is just fact. The Greens are tepid on indy, according to Mr Harvey.
The only way at present to push and keep our dream alive is to live with the partner we have ,until another host is found.If we let the SNP die, we kil! our own hopes for life after the SNP.
I’m not giving up on Independence, SNP or Wings.
I have given up on some contributors!
We are almost there!
Hold steady, focus on positives for our cause
Engage with Unionists with the facts and figures
That support Scotland first and show Bojo’s Westminster
For the corrupt cabal that it is.
Let’s do it.
Bob Mack says:
16 October, 2019 at 7:30 am
@Breeks…
But Bob, there’s no need to let the SNP die.
Just secure a Scottish Constitutional Backstop around Scotland’s SOVEREIGN Remain mandate, and for God’s sake STOP inventing legislation to hand Westminster a contrived Backstop about a Section 30 Agreement we don’t even need, and suddenly we have a redoubtable and permanent holding position from which we CANNOT be moved. Then, we can rush our Independence or take forever and a day to do it, – it will OUR business, nobody else’s, and neither Westminster nor any other foreign government will be suffering any illusions about the unlawful issue of Scotland’s colonial subjugation.
We don’t need a new SNP Party IF the old SNP Party does it’s job, gets serious about Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, secures a Backstop around the sovereign failsafe, and starts to implement the pre-existing defence mechanisms of our Nation.
But if the SNP doesn’t do that, and allows Scotland’s unlawful Colonial Subjugation, then we will indeed need a new SNP Party, because there will not be an old one.
IF Scotland is Brexited against it’s will, a Constitutional Battle for Sovereignty doesn’t begin, …. it has just ended.
Just read the Cherry interview in Holyrood magazine.
Yup, I’m not disappointed in Cherry at all. I like what I’ve seen & heard so far. Hope, she gives me hope.
Indy Ref2 being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m.
Contact details
Sms 80295
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/bbcradioscotland
Twitter @bbcradioscot
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
.
Ultimately it will be the people of Scotland who deliver independence not the SNP.
Sadly a majority is still uncertain, feirt or hostile to the idea. The system continues to challenge national self-confidence encouraging default sticking with autocratic nurse.
Used to playing bit parts in British productions still too many Scots suffer from a world stage fright. Going it alone simply terrifies witless.
Besides managing the shop, one wonders what the SNP has been doing all these years to extract the debilitating British parasite from the national body.
When SNP leaders and supporters can manifest, despite our history, sentimental pro British sympathies, something is quite out of joint.
Guardian informs us …. “There are multiple reports that the DUP is being offered a significant cash deal alongside the Brexit pact.
The Financial Times is reporting sources as saying the DUP were being offered “billions not millions” as a sweetener.
The Irish Times also noted the offer of a multimillion-euro package of investment …. “
The DUP don’t speak for NI.
And Scotland? What do we get? We get ignored, we don’t count.
You can have all the fun in the sun you want, but that’s not gonna motivate voters to get out the door on a dark wet pissing rain day in the middle of Autumn, when they are already depressed due to lack of daylight. That’s the simple facts of the matter.
Politics Scotland on the BBC
The Britnat Sir John Poultice is allowed to just deliver his spin on Sturgeons speech without any attempt at correction or interruption. He just goes on and on with his mince. He’s treated as if he is some sort of God. The BBC guy just sits there nodding and then says John thank you for your contribution.
There is no chance of anyone supporting Scottish independence being allowed an uninterrupted speech like that. Not once have I ever seen him asked his own personal opinion on Scottish independence. Anyone on political shows should be clear about their own views. Presenting people like Poultice as some sort of neutral god is a disgrace.
On the positive side Derek Mc Kay continues to show all who support independence how to handle the Britnat media. He put toodle oh the no in his place.
If you do not like an SNP and want to resign your membership but if you want Scottish independence for goodness sake VOTE SNP in the forthcoming GE. If it’s like 2017 again then you are just undermining the chances of independence.
From Mr Blackford’s conference speech:
“Finally, let me say this.The way to deliver independence is in a legal referendum that will be accepted and recognised by our European and international partners…So when you hear talk of a so-called Plan B, I ask you to consider this. The time to talk of a Plan B is not when Plan A has momentum.
And make no mistake – with rising support for independence and a general election on the horizon, we have that momentum…When it comes to choosing Scotland’s future, we should demand and win the gold standard for democracy for our country…make Scotland’s voice stronger…elect more SNP MPs…reaffirm our majority…reassert our mandate…to give Scotland a choice – to become an independent country”.
——————————-
Self-determination is not illegal. So, talk of a “legal referendum” eg a referendum approved and controlled by the British Empire, as the only “legal” route to indy, is claptrap.
How are the SNP no telling Europe and the world about about Scotland’s sovereignty as equal partners in an unequal union, so Scotland needs no permission, no approval from anyone, to end that union because: We are sovereign partners.
Instead the SNP are reduced to sound bite politics, unsubstantiated assertions about legality and re-heated rhetoric from the abysmal GE 2017.
As they wouldn’t listen to reason from YES campaigners, hopefully, the SNP will get another GE drubbing and Ms Sturgeon will be back doing what she does best: administering a dept in the colonial Scot Govt, instead of holding back independence.
Ghillie@1.09am
Well shucks Ghillie, I guess there’s a simple reason for that.
I simply have too much in the game to stand by and watch a pollution of lying, arrogant British nationalist oiks to destroy my country.
I have a clutch of children and grandchildren. Not a few of them have intimated they will leave Scotland if IndyRef 2020 is lost.
On the flip side, I have siblings who will return to Scotland if we prevail.
So it’s all in for me. There is just too much at stake for me and mine. I am still a young man and I promise you this: I have not yet begun to fight.
Vive l’Ecosse!
Don’t pay the BBC licence fee. They are a corrupt organisation.
http://archive.is/lzmxs
Alex Salmond: “The referendum route was one of my choosing, it was my policy, I thought that was the right way to proceed but of course there is a whole range of ways Scotland can improve its position in pursuit of Scottish independence. “A referendum is only one of a number of routes.”
http://archive.is/txt1X
Joanna Cherry: ““There has to be a democratic event, and I choose those words wisely, it doesn’t have to necessarily be a referendum, it could be something else, like a general election.
“But there has to be a democratic event. In the meantime we will do what we have always done as SNP politicians and push for more powers for Holyrood.”
“All we can do now is wait to find out
just how bad it’s going to be.”
“Wait and see”, if only you would.
So in other words, it might not.
Why contine to undermine?
For years I have read Wings, viewed it as a great source of information. You are a talented journalist.
The grey sky of negativity you bring the last number of months are a turn off.
Please stick to what you are good and put the SNP bad to bed.
Act like a Scot not a Unionist.
Obvious to see from the comments on here just how contentious this issue is, I think of all the times I hear ex Labour say I didn’t leave the Labour Party the Labour Party left me, I wonder how many SNP supporters will be saying that soon, I am only one of those who say it now.
We just need to keep pushing
I have no doubt the party chiefs have a plan
They are just not making it public
It’s time that many contributors to this blog took stock of where we are.The way I see it the FM is riding two horses with one erse as FM & leader of the SNP,caught in the perfect storm of brexit and our desire for independence.She has promised a referendum will be delivered and won next year,so can we all just stay loyal to her until she fails to deliver.
I’m an SNP member but see the party as the only vehicle that can take me to where I want to go,once indy is achieved I will reevaluate my position once things have settled down,so I’m no blind follower of the SNP. It’s that goal which must be paramount in our thoughts,give no encouragement to those who seek to harm our cause,hold fast, if the referendum ain’t delivered by end of 2020 all bets are off for me,but until then I have every confidence in the FM to deliver.
I really enjoy this site but it seems to have become an organ to bash the vehicle that will ultimately deliver indy.
Wings is the child of the rev and I respect that but it does seem, to a simple guy like myself, that some other agenda seems in place from him and the usual disruptors on the blog,leaving a rather bad smell about the place.
Back to lurking,rant over.
I have some sympathy for the FM, she walks a tightrope of impossible conflicting demands. Her cautious outlook was what many people felt was her best characteristic but that is not universally the case now. Hopefully she is galvanised to act having had an affirmation from her party faithfull.
I think the GRA debate has overlapped to some extent with the courting of the young vote for the SNP and Indy.
There was a huge engagement with 16 year olds being allowed to vote in the IndyRef1 and that awakening meant there were a lot of young folk with the energy and dynamism to lobby and campaign but nothing to work for as Indy got kicked down the road for a while. To keep them on side the SNP has to offer something, hence GRA reform.
From being a niche area, Self-ID is now a ‘wedge social issue’. It is polarising like Indy, and Brexit. For some of those in favour it has become their raison d’etre. The SNP are seen as a vehicle for delivering GRA reform for those individuals while for most of us here the main reason for voting SNP was to deliver Independence.
It is great being around youthful exuberance and being able to capitalise on that BUT there is a naivety about the consequences of this reform. Is is very different from gay marriage or any other human rights legislation in that it potentially takes away rights from a group already having to fight for equality on all fronts. That group is not being allowed a voice in the consultation process yet despite what S-A Somerville claims.
As has been mentioned before there are many young people now able to vote who have never known an SNP not in power in Holyrood or in a majority in Westminster. It seems unthinkable to them that it is a fragile thing easily lost and not regained. They believe that everything will always be like this and they can have access to power and the ear of the SG government for ever. They think they have all the time in the world.
To some extent it reflects what is going on here, some us feel the SNP has been hijacked by this vocal minority diverting the SNP from it true purpose . In the same way that some here feel WoS has been hijacked and should be ‘supporting’ the SNP as it was claimed BTL.
We need an active campaign to get behind soon.
A Spade is a spade not a shovel. Until you have Gender Reassingnment Surgery, if you have a penis, you’re a man, if you have a vagina you’re a woman. Self ID is a exponential slippery slope.
The transgender ideologists can go and fuck themselves as far as I am concerned. If the SNP isn’t first and foremost the Party or the vehicle through which Scotland achieves its Independence then it is nothing.
What has self ID got to do with achieving Independence? I do hope the SNP sycophants will remove their heads from their arses on this issue at least. I don’t just feel that the SNP has been hijacked by a loud obnoxious whiny minority it has been hijacked.
Sadly Wings is off, once again, on what looks an obsession that blots out perspective.
Wings writes ”
But make no mistake – the outcome of these elections will have a huge impact on both the SNP’s electoral fortunes and the chances of securing independence. We’re about to find out, in other words, how screwed we are.” – in relation to obscure internal SNP committee elections.
Oh good grief
Trans rights are “toxic” only on Wings site it seems, and is sad, an otherwise good site and good researcher gets hung up on this
Basically speaking Wings suffers from the reinforcement syndrome.
@Ayrshire Scot
“Trans rights are “toxic” only on Wings site it seems”
I guess you’ve been speaking to a different set of women to me. I know of many who are very unhappy about there being many SNP members, now in apparently important positions, who seem to believe that women’s rights are just acceptable collateral damage in the march to allow trans women access to all women’s spaces.
I’m personally more concerned that an elected rep on the conduct committee took part in a very nasty hate campaign that saw me get 5 death threats. Photos of my flat tweeted. Stuff sent to my house. My address tweeted online.
The man who sent me the threats even signed the women’s pledge!
I fired the snp membership right in the bin. It’s galling to see a bunch of people who threatened you wax lyrical about women’s rights. They don’t give a stuff about women’s rights and the snp don’t give a stuff about member conduct either. If they did they wouldn’t have elected Findlay.