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The Snake In The Long Grass

Posted on November 30, 2020 by

We had, we think it’s only fair to say, extremely low expectations of Nicola Sturgeon’s keynote speech this afternoon to the SNP’s soporific, strangled 2020 non-conference. It seems that members felt the same, because 15 seconds before the speech began only 1,166 of them were logged in to watch it.

The speech she just delivered, though, limboed under those expectations in platform shoes and a stovepipe hat without even grazing the underside of the bar.

It spent almost all of its time droning on about coronavirus and how the Tories were bad, with a couple of cheap giveaways to grab the media headlines, most notably a £500 one-off bung to carers, accompanied by a plea for Boris Johnson to make it look good by forgoing the tax on it. (Otherwise it’ll be £400.)

Her grand indy strategy got barely a cursory passing mention, but luckily we already knew what it was because she gave it away on Good Morning Scotland at 8.50am.

(Good Morning Scotland, BBC Radio Scotland, 30 November 2020)

In three minutes Sturgeon packed in a quite extraordinary amount of disingenuous, dishonest claptrap, some of it breathtaking in its audacity – particularly the bit where she claimed the legality of a Section 30 order had “never been tested in court, and I hope it never has to be tested in court, but I don’t rule anything like that out”.

It was wise of her not to rule such a possibility out, of course, because it’s ACTUALLY LITERALLY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. Martin Keatings has brought precisely that issue to the Court Of Session, with a crucial hearing due in January, and the Scottish Government has been actively and doggedly obstructing it for months on end.

(Maybe she just doesn’t know. After all, we’ve learned over recent months that none of the truckloads of civil servants and special advisors working for her, or her husband, who’s also the CEO of her party, ever tell her anything.)

Almost as bold was the astonishing claim that “there was a debate on [Plan B] at the SNP conference yesterday, and the position that was put forward was overwhelmingly supported”. What was discussed – there was no actual proposal to “debate” – at the conference was a wishy-washy vague resolution basically saying independence was good, with any talk of actual strategy having been expressly and deliberately forbidden and booted off into a powerless talking-shop “National Assembly” next year.

And even then the resolution only mustered about a 75%-25% majority of the 1,400 delegates who were present from the party’s total of 87,000 members.

But the key lines came near the start of the interview, when Gary Robertson asked if she’d been looking at any options other than the referendum Boris Johnson insists he won’t give permission for.

“I think if Scotland is to become independent that has to be a view that is expressed through a legal referendum. Y’know, however much I might want independence and might want to think there are shortcuts to that, there aren’t. That’s what has to happen to demonstrate majority support in Scotland and to demonstrate to the international community that it is something they should recognise.”

But we already know that that’s simply granting the UK government a veto. Sturgeon then handed Boris Johnson a very convenient soundbite suggesting, ridiculously, that anything else would be “against democracy”.

“I believe [Plan A] is actually the right one, and why should those who are arguing the democratic route be the ones that have to come up with a plan to deal with those who are arguing against democracy?”

But the alternative being put forward, as Robertson pointed out, was a free and fair plebiscitary election, which is as far from an “undemocratic” proposition as you could possibly get. People voting, in the full advance knowledge of what they’re voting for, is literally the definition of democracy.

Sturgeon responded by saying that Westminster would simply refuse to acknowledge it, which is a jaw-dropping level of hopeless defeatism.

“People sometimes say, well, if Boris Johnson or whoever’s in Downing Street’s going to block a referendum we should just have an election as a mandate for independence. What do you think they would do then? Do you think they’re just going to say ‘Well okay, we won’t accept the election result in favour of a referendum but we’ll accept it in favour of independence’?”

By any conceivable measure, a majority democratic vote on an explicit single-issue manifesto of a declaration of independence is a vastly stronger argument than simply begging for permission to even ask the question yet again, from a UK government that already has a clear electoral mandate and a 12:1 majority to refuse that permission.

If an appeal to the international community is what we’re counting on, a plebiscitary mandate is, at the very least, an unequivocal and incontestable expression of the will of the people, compared to an election in which a REQUEST for a referendum was merely one of a whole raft of policies voters were voting on.

It would certainly be an infinitely more powerful and persuasive thing to wave in the faces of the international community than merely having been turned down for a re-run of a vote we had less than seven years ago.

The interview made as clear as is humanly possible that Sturgeon has no practical interest in, or intention of, securing independence in the forseeable future. It was all but an open statement that if Johnson says no, that’s game over for another five years.

No wonder she didn’t want to talk about it in her speech.


PS Voting closed in the NEC elections just before the FM’s speech. Even though the voting was 100% online, and therefore all the results would have been known within literally seconds of the closing time, we’ve been told to wait several hours for them to be “counted”. We’re sure there’s no sinister reason for this.

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  1. 30 11 20 17:57

    The Snake In The Long Grass | speymouth

153 to “The Snake In The Long Grass”

  1. P says:

    I had to smile, or was it grimace, when I read this, Stu –
    “Sturgeon responded by saying that Westminster would simply refuse to acknowledge it, which is a jaw-dropping level of hopeless defeatism”
    And yet the 2020 conference buzzword is “Hope”

  2. Tartan Tory says:

    At the end of her speech, NS said this:

    “As an independent country, we can be decision makers, partners, bridge builders, and we have a right, if a majority of us want it, to choose that future. That right of self-determination cannot and will not be subject to a Westminster veto”

    Fighting talk, or just rhetorical fluff for the blinkered?

  3. Another_Ian_Blackford_Speech says:

    The conference was depressing. The bland resolutions, straw men to be puffed over, offering nothing but vague statements people could broadly agree with.

  4. Oscar Taime says:

    Time for a new party!

  5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Fighting talk, or just rhetorical fluff for the blinkered?”

    You know the answer to that.

  6. Robert Louis says:

    As I posted elsehwere, their is now no reason for voting for the SNP next year. It is clear they have zero intention of pushing for independence. .. ‘sometime in the first half of the next parliament..’ means late 2022 or 2023, at the very earliest – that is, if they even bother. Chances are that by then, they will merely do what they are doing now, tell us they need a new ‘mandate’ at the next election.

    I will vote for ISP on the list, as we need a new political party to fight for the independence movement. The SNP are done.

    So depressing.

  7. Wullie B says:

    Rev, that audio link might be the wrong one, it’s about your case against Kez D

  8. Another_Ian_Blackford_Speech says:

    Come on, checking office bearer election results against the centrally approved candidates (and adjusting as necessary) on an 97-03 Excel document takes an hour or two Stu. They’re not superhuman down at HQ.

  9. Wullie B says:

    Damn, what happened there, it’s changed???

  10. Kenny says:

    Thanks for picking-through Sturgeon’s waffle, Stuart, and informing us once more of her between-the-lines BS.

    Her place in Scottish history is confirmed; she resorted to crime for a) her selfish ego or b) as a player for the British State. One or t’other, she’s an accomplished rogue.

    Now let’s see what the results of the NEC elections bring-forth.

  11. Cringe says:

    Third time I have heard that prepared speech recently, how many times does she have to repeat it before the acolytes realise game’s a bogie?

  12. Heaver says:

    Well cut Nicola some slack, let’s not forget, independence is low down on her priorities; The Alphabet Women perjured themselves so are facing jailtime: The Indyref2 Fighting Fund has disappeared so its disappearers are facing jailtime. And these crooks are her entire circle of friends. These things must surely give her wistful remembrance of happy days, she may soon feel it necessary to display grief for what she has murdered.

  13. Paolo Mario says:

    That woman has to go.

  14. Alison says:

    And yet the fan club is, right now, gushing all over twitter about how we’re now right on track for a referendum, how marvellous her speech was & isn’t she ‘amazing’. £500 for nurses buys a lot of good will. Seemingly.

  15. Douglas says:

    ‘P says:
    And yet the 2020 conference buzzword is “Hope”’

    I think the full version is:

    ‘Hope the British will change their spots, behave decently and go along with an Independence vote’

    Centuries of British behaviour indicate this is vanishingly implausible

  16. Iain Donald says:

    This is so fucking depressing. I am NOT voting SNP again as I don’t believe they will do anything to gain Indy. Best I can do is show my lack of confidence in the current version of SNP by not voting for them.

    Sadly, they probably need to get right pumped in the election, before they change enough to save Indy.

  17. ScottieDog says:

    Taken long enough for it to sink in with me. I put it down to stupendous incompetence initially but they really are the darlings of the U.K. establishment.

    Firstly They have to be voted in in May I’m sad to say. Then we need t a challenger party who will compete with them for Westminster seats in the next GE. I’m assuming of course that there is no intention to have Indy ref2

  18. Donald says:

    A real busted flush, that one. Time she stepped aside, and let a leader take over.

  19. Dave M says:

    She needs to go.

  20. Margaret Lindsay says:

    I completely agree with Iain Donald above me! I don’t Veronique I could vote for independence after over 50 years of dreaming of it, if this crew would be in charge in their present form. They’ve fucked us all over.

  21. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Alison says – the fan club are gushing’

    Aye. I watched it, with my cynical hat on, knowing all that has been published here and on other non fan club sites…. and still.

    I think she gave a fantastic performance. I really do. I know its bullshit, but I think she pitched it just right.

    The look at me, Covid/Pandemic – no wonder I look haggart – I care soooo much and haven’t we all been through such a lot.

    Then – how bad is Boris, what a shower, look what they are threatening to do to Holyrood ehh. Really bad eh.

    Then sweeties for the good boys and girls, and a bit of trolling to Boris, isn’t she brave.

    A bit of Brave New World, we can all build utopia, for the socialists.

    And then the hint, the need, the likelihood, the maybes Aye, sometime soon – But Only with your permission AND ONE MORE MANDATE – promise of an Indyref somewhere over the Rainbow.

    And cut. Bravo Nicla, Polish that halo, by jove, and have a cuppa tea luv you’ve fairly earned your shilling the day.

  22. Cuilean says:

    At Holyrood’s Election next May, as it is not going to campaign on a plebiscite election and Sturgeon is instead betting the farm on the Tories doinf the honourable thing, the SNP grass roots support is not going to turn out. We will suffer the same as we did in General Election of 2017. Sturgeon will still gain enough loyal votes to go into a coalition government with the Greens. Sturgeon and her woke band will then be free to go to town on their woke policies. That’s all Sturgeon & Smith want. The Freedom to destroy women and girls rights whilst Boris will laugh and say, @Have at it Ms Strugeon’ whilst dismantling Holyrood.

    Sturgeon is a control freak and all she wants to do, is cling to power and to hell with Scotland.

    Please let there be a third alternative, in both the constituency and regional votes to the SNP or Greens next May!

    I have only ever voted SNP my whole life. I am now politically homeless.

  23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think she gave a fantastic performance. I really do.”

    Really? I watched expecting at least a sober, serious-faced COVIDdy beginning but building up to some barnstorming empty rhetoric, and saw some half-arsed mumbling and a load of phoned-in doggerel livened up by a few measly pennies being tossed towards The Worthy Poor. She looks ill and weak, begging for sympathy because she’s tired from the effort of trying to remember all her lies.

  24. Imbecile_Heureux says:

    Have you any polling data on how people would vote in an election with the “declaration of independence” as the single SNP manifesto commitment?

  25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Have you any polling data on how people would vote in an election with the “declaration of independence” as the single SNP manifesto commitment?”

    No, but that’s a cracking idea for our next poll.

  26. Imbecile_Heureux says:

    Would be fascinating to see!

  27. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    The party leadership especially Ms Sturgeon have a lot to answer for.

    The party never recovered from the loss of Alec Salmond, I know he wasn’t loved by all but has to be one of the most able politicians in Europe.

    If the lot of them don’t get the jail I will support the SNP in May as I can’t allow unionists to take control.

    This is the last time I vote SNP unless there is much change.

    ISP or whoever is available as pro indie gets vote 2.

    I am very tempted to join ISP as I doubt the SNP in its current form can get us to independence and therefore a new real Independence Party is needed.

    I hope ISP and any other independence part come together as we can’t have confusion out there.

    How did it ever get to this ? Madness badness incompetence or MI5?

  28. Daisy Walker says:

    Unfortunately, I do think she gave a good performance. Perhaps not her best, but enough – and pitched specifically for the ‘don’t scare the horses’ audience, and wheesht for Indy.

    They will be doing cartwheels about her pointing out that Devolution is about to get royally screwed, that will be enough of a sweetie for them, so they don’t see the slight of hand that the promise of a sometime over the Rainbow Referendum is, after Brexit is delivered and the May election passed.

    Like having the time and date of your execution and promising to go to the police and report it / take out protection on the day of your cremation. HERE LIES INDY, DIED ON THE PREMISS OF JUST ONE MORE MANDATE. RIP Sore Abba indeed. (one of those b’s should be an l).

  29. Republicofscotland says:

    I had a feeling that Sturgeon would, lay the entire blame for no indyref at the door of Johnson, when the answer to the indy question lies in the hands of the Scottish people.

    Its a kind of oh give me your vote I’ll then try and get indy for you, but If a canny manage it, you know its all Johnson’s fault because he won’t agree to let us hold it.

    We now have only two options, one Sturgeon is removed,(Via the inquiry) and replaced with someone who cares about bringing independence to Scotland or two, Mr Keating wins his court case and we pressure Sturgeon to hold the indyref her, knowing that she cannot rely on the Johnson not agreeing to the S30 bollocks.

    Personally I prefer the removal of her and Murrell.

  30. Normski says:

    “only 1,166 of them were logged in to watch it.”

    That’s not correct. Many were logged in but abstained on votes.

    The number of delegates who could have voted was 2440.

    Make of those numbers what you will.

  31. shug says:

    I see the BBC is continuing with its programme of fake news.
    From the BBC tonight:

    “Figures show there were 50.5 deaths per million in Scotland in the week to 15 November, compared to 40.6 in England.”

    Looking at the 7 and 14 day average deaths for Scotland and England the following can be found.

    Scotland 7 day average 31.7
    Scotland 14 day average 31.3

    UK 7 day average 460.1
    UK 14 day average 450.3

    Given Scotland has less than 10% of the UK population simply multiply the Scottish number by 10 to see the additional deaths taking place in England.

    Nicol told Piers Morgan this morning the BBC figure was taken from a specific short period, presumable because it was the worst they could find. The BBC are maintaining the fake news to get people believing it is worse up here.

  32. Wee Chid says:

    £500 quid to paid carers while those of us saving the country millions by doing it for nothing – get nothing. However, I’d forego any amount of money if she’d give a date for e referendum – without begging for a S30.

  33. Alisdair says:

    I relinquished my membership in March I had had enough. When History is written by those that follow, herself and the likes of Smith will be sung about and they will be remembered for the pain and deaths they brought to the Scottish people in convivence with an aggressive foreign government for pay. Oh Scotia a new nadir. My heart is empty now.

  34. Freshmint says:

    I’m not sure how Holyrood works in this regard, but is the SNP oficially in a coalition with the Greens or are they just a minority government? If it is a coallition, I’m just wondering, if the May election returns a SNP minority and the Greens and ISP both do well enough to be a coalition partner, which would the SNP choose to ally with?

  35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “That’s not correct. Many were logged in but abstained on votes.”

    How do you know that?

  36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m not sure how Holyrood works in this regard, but is the SNP oficially in a coalition with the Greens or are they just a minority government?”

    They’re a minority government.

  37. Freshmint says:

    “They’re a minority government.”

    Ah well. It will be interesting to see how the SNP treat the ISP in the next parliament, but I fear it will all be too late by then to matter much anyway.

  38. john rose says:

    The one problem that I see with a single issue election (which i actually support) is that each constituency gets a result, and representative. If (for example) the borders choose to elect a tory representative, then he/she could theoretically choose not to support udi. In that case we would get a northern Ireland like situation where some would push for the country to be partitioned (easier if somewhere like the borders, or northern Isles vote against the snp).
    I don’t think that this is insurmountable, but you have to be laying the ground work now to support unified action.

  39. Eddie Munster says:

    Nice bonus for carers. Shame for us on legacy benefits, like ESA and income support, carers allowance etc, that don’t even get the special 20 quid top up UC have been getting. Too hard to do they say.

  40. Annie 621 says:

    ‘…Tired from the effort of having to remember all those lies…’
    If she had a conscience like most she’d would be demented through sleep deprivation.
    She lives in a different world.
    There is no conscience.

  41. dan macaulay says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    30 November, 2020 at 6:22 pm
    “Have you any polling data on how people would vote in an election with the “declaration of independence” as the single SNP manifesto commitment?”

    No, but that’s a cracking idea for our next poll.

    yes, up for crowdfunding this

  42. Ian McCubbin says:

    Seems there is no way to Independence with SNP.
    Patience and time we don’t have and only hope is if the “good guys” come through in the SNP elections.
    As for NS speech we’ll enough has been said ????

  43. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Rose


    A plebiscitary election is NOT UDI, it’s just an alternative route to demonstrating the support of a majority of the electorate for independence rather than use of a referendum. There will be no balkanisation of Scotland, whether the borders, Shetland Islands or anywhere else, anymore than Glasgow or Dundee were entitled to declare UDI in 2014.

    People voting in a plebiscitary election know what they will be voting for. Even if *some* yoons say they will boycott the referendum, it only becomes an issue if turnout falls below 50%, which is vanishingly unlikely.

  44. Beaker says:

    £500 for nurses / carers. I have no objection, but there are literally thousands of key workers without whom the country would have ground to a halt. Then there are those who have lost their jobs due to the various necessary restrictions.

  45. Gerard McGhee says:

    we’re beyond Lewis Carroll and into the darker world of Kafka…with a strong dose of Beckett.

  46. Cringe says:

    The GMS recording on the BBC cut off as she was being asked about the Holyrood (Salmond)enquiry, was anything interesting said after that point?

  47. john rose says:

    @andy Ellis
    That’s the way you might think of it, but please point me towards the compliant media that will spin it that way.

  48. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Thanks Rev Stu.

    This article has put into words what was going through my mind today, when I read what she had said about the English PM disregarding the result of a plebiscitary election, when THAT is a “normal” route for nations to become independent, and the utter tosh disregarding the imminent Martin Keating court case. Is she really that ignorant of a case that her government opposed?

    I’ve said to peeps that I would retain my SNP membership until I saw what happened at this conference. Nicola’s prevarication has moved me up to within 100 yards of the Y-junction, where one route is leave and the other is stay.

    The last 100 yards and the ultimate turn now depends on the NEC election results…

  49. Sinky says:

    Most SNP supporters watched Nicola Sturgeon’s speech on TV even delegates like me who had other jobs to do when working at home rather than attending the conference in person.

    It’s time pro indy people stopped damaging our cause and helping the Unionists by suggesting SNP leadership doesn’t support independence.

    Unless the SNP gain a majority next May, you can forget a referendum in the near future.

    Shut at 6.30 is right the BBC are now on full anti SNP/ Indy and will distort any figure to maintain London Rule.

    They did it again in lead up to Nicola’s speech when they showed a graph of cases in MAY in order to attack Drew Hendry. The BBC refuses to broadcast Covid figures for each country because it would show that we are doing better than Boris


  50. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Rose

    How the MSM spins things, whilst interesting, is hardly the point. What matters is ensuring a Yes vote which is convincing enough to secure international recognition. If the MSM is capable of stopping that we might as well all give up now.

    Worth remembering the Yes vote went up 20% in the few years before 2014 with an overwhelmingly hostile MSM, Project Fear and a much more effective and united britnat opposition than exists now.

  51. John says:

    Is that £500 for only full time workers or is it also pro-rata to cover part-time workers.

  52. Daisy Walker says:

    Had another look at St Niclas speech.

    Some thoughts on use of language.

    ‘the powers that come with Independence” are something to be ‘won’

    When actually they are something to be voted for, if you deconstruct it fully, in a democratic vote of some description. Which is a much more practical, tangible and doable thing than some mythical, far off ‘win’.

    Much talk of REBUILD, again, in the future, engenders images of mountains to climb, struggle, toil, and of course all done from the baseline ruins. Makes it an insurmountable challenge. And if you fall for that, then of course, it is so much more reassuring to put that off for another day.

    Unless I missed it, she has completely shied away from the terms S30 order, Gold Standard, and Mandate.

    Never the less, Referendum is still her route of choice – and due to the 2014 precedent, and her policy up to now, there is no reason to think this means anything other (despite her rhetoric that she will not allow them to stop us) than asking nicely for another Referendum.

    By talking in such a measured way, it is really easy to miss glaring opposites in logic – for example, on the one hand the Bad Tories are going to destroy devolution, but on the other hand they are going to meekly allow a dismantled Holyrood to arrange a Referendum. Aye right.

    And slap my wrists, but she never went on about the Polls. I’m guessing on rehearsal it didn’t pan out – on the one hand pointing out how in danger Devolution is, and on the other how much support there is for Indy now – and your policy is? – let it happen, and sometime in the future, promise, really promise, pinky promise to hold a Referendum on it.

    Hmm, yeh, it doesn’t quite hold water does it. Far better to talk in vague terms about support for Indy being high – and its all you loyal SNP members who are responsible.

    Hey ho. Still I’m glad to see her eyes weren’t bothering her too much during this performance.

    A question, how old do the Sturgeonista have to be, before you can let them know that St Nicla isn’t real? Ho, Ho, Ho.

    Anyway, folks, only 31 food shopping days till Brexit.

  53. Daisy Walker says:

    @ John Says – £500 for full time workers.

    It is pro rata for part timers. She did say that in fairness.

  54. Muscleguy says:

    So the people can decide in May but calling a plebiscite election they cannot decide is what she said. it was utterly hypocritical.

    If declared Yes parties get a majority and a S30 is denied then we simply declare independence based on the mandate given. What about that doesn’t she understand?

    She pretends otherwise because she only wants Yes people to vote for her so she can continue to be in govt in a devolutionary position. I am prepared to bet that if May is not a plebiscite election then she wall engage in political theatre then absolutely nothing will happen when Boris says ritually No.

    Chris McElenyis absolutely right, we need to ask for a S30 now pointing out to Boris that if he says no now we will weaponise next May’s election. That is a slam dunk.

    As for a declaration, it is in rUK’s interest even without the Brexit chaos to say ‘can we please, please talk about this?

    Will rUK do without our oil and gas? our alcohol production? our meat? our veg? our cereals? our excess elecrickery? etc etc which a declaration could endanger by a necessarily closed border.

    We can replace rUK markets by a rapid pre accession access agreement with the EU/EFTA countries. The brands of things in the supermarket may change, Aldi and Lidl may prosper mightily but we will survive. Will Brexit rUK? I’m not so sure and they won’t be either.

    The big industrial distillery above Kirkcaldy makes most of the big brand alcohols in the UK under license from Kahlua to Bailey’s. So we can leave them dry apart from their own beer and cider and we can make those too. We can get the EU to cut off their wine supply as well. That will bring them to the negotiating table.

    To make their eyes water the Scottish side turn up to the negotiations with some bottles and keep them on their own side letting the fumes cross the table. That should do it.

  55. Bob Mack says:


    Your holed below the plimsol line and going down like a lead balloon. Wake up.

  56. John says:

    “Daisy Walker says:
    30 November, 2020 at 7:37 pm
    @ John Says – £500 for full time workers.

    It is pro rata for part timers. She did say that in fairness.”

    Thank you,
    er this is now on the BBC website “It will be paid to all full-time NHS and adult social care staff, with a proportional share for part-time staff.” did not see this bit before.

  57. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

    BDTT 7.22 pm

    Am the same Brian. Depending on these results my last quid to them is done.If woke take control am going abroad.

    May come back I 2029 as per ma dreams for next referendum.

  58. A Person says:

    As Beaker points out above, a bonus for NHS workers when hundreds of thousands of us in the private sector, with lower job security, have seen our incomes collapse, will go down like a lead balloon with many swing voters.

    Id bet that a large majority of self-employed working-class folk are SNP-inclined.

    Another very “New Scottish Labour” thing to do.

  59. Colin Alexander says:

    Stu Campbell

    Time to get speaking to Joanna Cherry; Alex Salmond, the ISP etc regarding a plebiscite election on independence.

  60. Johnny Martin says:

    But Sinky, if some people believe that the SNP leadership don’t want to push for independence quickly, WHY should they shut up?

    If people are doubting, then the politicians at the top should look in the mirror to understand where that doubt comes from. They’ve collected many mandates and not delivered so people who are doubting are being smart to do so, based on the evidence of *this* (ie the Sturgeon led) SNP government’s record of delivery.

    It’s become a popular revisionist using to say “but well it was too soon”. Ok, but don’t asleep for mandates then if it’s too soon. You weren’t saying that when you wanted votes.

    To be quite honest the squawking about “we won’t get an indyref and it’ll be your fault!” from some just reads like yet another attempt to blame someone else for failing to deliver (in this case it’s doubting elements of the Yes movement, other days it’s Boris fault. And yes he’s a clown that’s why folk are asking for a way round him to be found and utilised ASAP).

    One would almost think they’d be happy to only be three biggest party, without a majority, so they could blame everyone else for not delivering because it’d be really simple to just bang in a commitment to a date and explicit Plan B in the manifesto and most of the discontent would have et melt away. So why won’t they?

  61. john rose says:

    @andy, if only it was that easy. Do you really think that public perception is not important? I remember 1979, we won that vote, but got nothing because as well as the 40% rule, there was no general clamour for action. It just fizzled out. It was killed by omission in the media.
    Noone is going to do us any favours. We are going to have to have a watertight case to bypass any media manipulation. A plebiscite election, promoted on the Internet, with unionist telling a different story won’t work. We need either a referendum or a general election called by the government on the single issue of independence.
    This is why boycotting the snp won’t work, we need to get back control of our party, and eject all the entryists.

  62. Big Jock says:

    The Martin Keatings verdict may sill change everything.

    Let’s say the Scottish courts decide Scotland is sovereign. How can Nicola then ask Boris? She would be going against Scotland’s legal system.

  63. Daisy Walker says:

    Have put a message over on OT.

    Am going to visit Holyrood on Wednesday to see how setting up a peaceful presence there might work. Just a reccie at this time, but anyone interested (including suggestions) please nip over to the other side.

    Cactus has promises he won’t sing.

  64. Normski says:

    ‘“That’s not correct. Many were logged in but abstained on votes.”

    How do you know that?’

    Ummm, because many of us were logged in but abstained.

  65. Albert Herring says:

    I’m retaining my SNP membership until 01/01/2021 when I expect a constitutional bombshell to have been delivered. Hopefully all this woke shite is just smokescreen. If not, I’m out.

  66. AYRSHIRE ROB says:


    You abstained on what exactly?

  67. Jason Smoothpiece says:


    A public inquiry into state collusion in the murder of Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane will not take place at this time, the government has said.

    Several examinations of the case found state forces colluded in his murder.

    But Mr Finucane’s widow Geraldine said the government’s decision “makes a mockery” of previous rulings.

    Quelle surprise. Nothing to see here move along please.

  68. John Walsh says:

    I have suspected for sometime that the wokerati have been monitoring and selectively drip feeding the tweets Nicola gets to see. Then kaboom . WTF .
    A Plebiscite. What a good idea. Leaves the Yoons and WM nowhere to go.
    If they deny that , the will of the sovereign people of Scotland they defeat something they already agreed.
    Pity Nicola hasn’t the balls and has been out manoeuvred at every turn by WM.

  69. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Rose

    The prospectus for making Holyrood’s 2021 elections doesn’t depend on MSM input, or indeed even on popular support (altho’ I reckon its overwhelmingly likely polling will show overwhelming support) – all it really needs is for the EXISTING government to grow a pair and say that’s what will happen.

    2021 =/= 1979.

    I agree the SNP need to eject the entryists. A plebiscitary election which is labelled as such by a ruling party with multiple mandates is already legitimate. All that is lacking is a government in Holyrood with the political balls to make it so.

  70. Normski says:

    “AYRSHIRE ROB says:
    30 November, 2020 at 8:13 pm


    You abstained on what exactly?”

    Ummm, some of the resolutions.

  71. robertknight says:

    Sinky @ 7:30

    “Unless the SNP gain a majority next May, you can forget a referendum in the near future.”

    Sorry Sinky, but which SNP are we talking about?

    The one that pays lip service to Indy and whose leader says the British PM/Parliament are the only ones who get to decide whether we do or do not get a say in the future of our country?

    Is that the SNP you’re talking about, or is there another pro-Indy version lurking somewhere that I’ve failed to notice?

  72. Sweep says:

    @Daisy Walker 8.04pm

    I’ve been reading this site for years and only around 3 or 4 times have I ever managed to remember where the OT section is. Have pity. Give us a clue.

  73. Daisy Walker says:

    Sweep, OT is Off Topic, scroll down the Wings centre display and its second from the bottom, just above Tom Gallacher.

  74. Saffron Robe says:

    Nicola Sturgeon said at the end of her speech, “That inalienable right of self-determination cannot, and will not, be subject to a Westminster veto”. However, that is exactly what her Plan A gives to Westminster – the inalienable right to a veto.

  75. Dunadd says:

    Why do we always talk about winning, gaining or becoming independent as if it is something new. Surely we would be returning to what should be our natural state from our present abnormal position?

  76. Jason Smoothpiece says:


    Go towards the top of the page.

    Second column from the right headed Facebook. Follow that down towards the bottom under Zany comedy relief you will find it.

    Or just click on the link next to Daisy Walker at Recent Comments.


  77. ElGordo says:

    Good speech by Nicola today given the circumstances.

    Good move on NHS bonus as well with 160k+ voters to receive this before the May elections and then tossed over to Boris to decide on the tax rebate.

    I hope its looking like, at the latest, Sept 2022 for the referendum.

    Good timing as this will be the centenary year of Irish independence.

    A good time to compare two similar sized nations.

    Scotland (UK) vs Ireland

    Population: 5.5m / 4.9m

    Wealth GDP PP USD: 39,229(21st) / 79,669(3rd) 100%
    Wealth Debt as % of GDP: 100% / 60%

    Social Benefits p/w GBP: 74.35 / 182.70 +400% +5,634 p/y
    Social Pension p/w GBP: 134.25 / 223.47 +66% +4,600 p/y

    Life Expectancy: 79.1 / 82.3 +3 years

    Education PISA Ranking: 81.2% / 82%

    COVID Cases per million: 23,954 / 14,624 -40%
    COVID Deaths per million: 859 / 414 -50%
    COVID Increase Debt %GDP: 21.8% / 3% +18.8%
    COVID GDP Growth 2020: -10.3% / -2.3% +8%
    COVID GDP Growth 2021: 3.3% / 2.9% -0.4%

    Rate of GBP to EUR in 1999: 1 GBP = 1.42 EUR
    Rate of GBP to EUR in 2020: 1 GBP = 1.12 EUR
    Increase of 27% in the value of Euro Bank accounts vs GBP

    And on and on and on, so many facts and figures and none of them are UK positive, with the exception of military spending..

    And this is all before Brexit hits.

    The figures will be even more worse in a comparison with Norway, and slightly less worse in a comparison with Denmark.

    All done without the mighty might of the world beating UK or an industrial revolution. No coal, no Iron (and no nuclear).

    Amazing what you can achieve when you have the confidence to go it alone and make friends with the world.

  78. Benjie says:

    Here is an oddball that is almost impossible to even occur but here it is. What would happen if the UK Labour Party promised to hold a referendum in Scotland between Devo-Max/Fed vs Indy if elected to Number 10 in 2024. Say the SNP didn’t play ball (as Devo-Max/Fed would most probably win) or there wasn’t a Pro Indy/Labour Majority (hard to imagine but go with it) and Holyrood said no to such a referendum what then? Stupid question but an interesting theory…

  79. Pete says:

    El Gordo
    Some people may like them but I hate all those targeted ‘bungs’ like this £500 bonus.
    It’s like baby boxes, free tampons, winter fuel allowance, free tv licence, free school meals, the list goes on and on.
    Far better to have decent wages, pensions and benefits and let people spend their money on their choices.
    This all smacks of Gordon Brown and his micro management. It never ends well!

  80. Johnny Martin says:

    El Gordo:

    “I hope it’s looking like…”

    Drivelly waffle given that no such date has been mentioned by anyone with the power to call
    a date.

    For what reason do you have to “hope” that’s the date that it’s “looking like”? It’s because you haven’t been given a date isn’t it? So what does that tell you, you’re being left to make up stories for yourself and you’ll happily swallow “but no one said that” later.

    So please stop speculating and spreading disinformation in the hope of conning others into imagining that that’s the date. Instead go off and demand that date off the SNP.

  81. Craig Holden says:

    I used to visit this site to be encouraged, enthused and educated. I now visit out of morbid curiosity. It’s become nothing more than an SNP BAD echo chamber.

  82. Giesabrek says:

    @ Craig Holden at 9.22
    I feel the same, but what do we do? Turn a blind eye and let them cheat us of our independence, them of all people?

  83. Johnny Martin says:

    Pete @ 9:16pm:

    I agree. I think some of these things need to be in place because they do make for a better society.

    Nonetheless, there was someone on the news going on about how their work colleague, ie an adult in paid employment ffs, couldn’t afford tampons last week and I did think “has the idea that wages should be better so this sort of thing doesn’t happen just gone out of the window completely?”.

    I’ll say again, free tampons are a good thing but the signs would still be that too many people are far from living comfortably if they can’t afford them despite working. More needs to be done, much more, so folk can actually afford to enjoy life.

  84. Johnny Martin says:

    Giesabrek, you’re cheating yourself out of it by refusing to push your representatives to deliver what they promised you.

  85. Alf Baird says:

    Colin Alexander @ 7.51

    Some time ago I noticed that SNP Ministers I happened to be dealing with over a prolonged period in certain policy areas were invariably following the diktat of senior UK civil servants in ScotGov. Any sensible suggestions given to Ministers which deviated from whatever UK civil servants wanted were quickly blocked, even when it was obvious that poor decisions (as far as Scotland was concerned) were being made by officials.

    This diktat seems to be the institutionalised norm at Holyrood, especially with regard to the s.30 issue which has become a non-negotiable decree as far as UK civil servants and hence also the SNP leadership is concerned. In other words, the SNP elite is refusing to fight a plebescite election because this goes against the advice and views of its senior UK civil servants in ScotGov.

    This means the ScotGov is essentially just a UK Gov department, nothing more, and the SNP leadership is complicit in that, though they like to give the appearance of something different. This also perhaps helps explain the Alex Salmond fiasco to some extent and the close civil service/SNP alliance in that regard.

    As Fanon stated, the National Party pampered elite ‘reaches an accommodation with colonialism’, and it certainly seems like the SNP elite has come to such an accommodation.

    So you are right, we probably do need a new National Party to fight any election as a plebiscite on independence as there is no danger of the SNP doing so, unless there is a major clear oot of the leadership and NEC.

  86. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

    Normski 8.38pm

    Care to share what you abstained on or is it a secret?
    Wouldn’t have been on a plan for referendum by any chance?

  87. Wee Chid says:

    Normski says:
    30 November, 2020 at 8:05 pm
    “‘“That’s not correct. Many were logged in but abstained on votes.”

    How do you know that?’

    Ummm, because many of us were logged in but abstained.”

    Doesn’t that reply constitute a logical fallacy? Stu asked how you knew. He didn’t ask for a repetition of the statement. Where is the evidence than “many were logged in”? Do you have a link to the figures for example?

  88. Robert graham says:

    Well you will be getting yer compulsory barely tested Vaccine then ?

    Provided by your trusted big pharma Drug companies who have pressured your government into making sure they can’t be sued for any damage caused by side effects , put simply the state will assume all on going medical care in the event of you being permanently harmed by this vaccine.

    Have a quick check to see how much money has been paid out in damages by every one of these companies the recurring theme in all these cases is tampering with test and known side effects results data they are all past masters of deception they know how to cover their arses ,

    This Tory government pushing this untried cocktail of who knows what it contains on a unsuspecting public who has been brainwashed into believing the cure has been found , months of daily sometimes hourly reminders to wash your hands and cover your face , control the virus my Arse nothing has changed since March even with everyone walking about like trained chimps with people wearing masks outside any deviation from instructions is jumped on ,

    And yet all of a sudden we are invited to trust these arses that have a proven verifiable record of previously lying about everything under the Sun , Aye fk n right stick yer jab up yer arse

  89. Daisy Walker says:

    CONVOY for YES.

    Remember Bikers for Yes.

    Remember the Billboard campaign, ‘Is that true or did you hear it on the BBC’

    Bridges for Yes

    For those of us with Vehicles – how long would it take to do a city, or town, with a Convoy for Yes.

    And if it was married up locally with Lollypops (at Pedestrian crossings) for Yes.

    All Covid Safe methods of campaigning – and all Hi VIZ.

    And for the Sturgeonista away to decry this – it is actually the kind of stuff you should be thinking of doing yourself. Still a lot of No voters out there who need to be convinced.

  90. Maybe we should just go along with Alister Jack’s statement that there should be no new referendum for 25 to 40 years? We’ll get one quicker that way.

  91. Iain More says:

    I listened and I wasn’t convinced. It is a question of trust and I have none left and why should I have any. Her and her heel dragging cabal is up to their ("Tractor" - Ed)ous necks in trying to send Alex Salmond to jail. Does anybody really think that such people will deliver Independence for Scotland. Another day has passed just about and its another day of them hiding behind Covid 19 again.

  92. ElGordo says:

    @Johnny at the back

    “For what reason do you have to “hope” that’s the date that it’s “looking like”?”

    For the stark and obvious comparison between Scotland/UK and Ireland, at the time of the 2022 independence centenary celebrations, that i then laid out in the facts and figures that followed.

    Was kinda the point of the post.

  93. The Isolator says:

    @El Gordo

    Sept 2022 and Ireland ?? Jesus Wept.

  94. @El Gordo

    We are not waiting for Sep2022. It has f-all to do with Ireland and whatever date that happened to be 100(ish) yrs ago.

  95. Stoker says:

    I believe they’re keeping “the count” secret until the deadline for tomorrow’s headlines pass. Wouldn’t be wanting to shove Queen Deceiver’s drivel off the top now would they?

  96. McDuff says:

    Craig Holden.

    Are you simple. The reason for this site exposing the SNP as bad is because they bloody well are. Have you been reading any of this stuff? The SNP have NO intention of holding a referendum and by your support for them you are obviously happy to have indy flushed down the pan.

  97. MaggieC says:

    Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,

    Update from the Correspondence page ,

    The Convener responded to Levy & McRae’s letter of 20 November on 30 November 2020 ,

    “ On that basis, and having discussed your letter of 20 November, the Committee does not consider it can meet your request to fund your client to support the work of the Committee. “

    What a bloody awful letter to send to Alex Salmond’s solicitors after what he’s been put through by the Scottish Government .

  98. CameronB Brodie says:

    You know you have a problem when the leader of the SNP is sufficiently brass-necked to gas-light the nation, as to the principles of Sovereignty, International Law and Democracy”.

  99. Effijy says:

    Sir Kier agreeing to abstain on the vote for the next set
    Of lockdown levels.

    Bojo will win his vote with Labour again choosing to do nothing
    But aid their blue brothers.

  100. Tannadice Boy says:

    Agreed that’s a bit of a shocker. If I were Alex Salmond I would have other things to do when called to give oral evidence. A spot of Christmas shopping Alex?

  101. ScottieDog says:

    “ Nicola Sturgeon said at the end of her speech, “That inalienable right of self-determination cannot, and will not, be subject to a Westminster veto”. However, that is exactly what her Plan A gives to Westminster – the inalienable right to a veto.”

    Yep and her mention of ‘legal referendums’ is very deliberate and very worrying.

  102. ElGordo says:

    Good to reference the relative strength of Ireland in comparison with Scotland.

    Similar sized countries.

    Ireland having double the wealth of Scotland, with far superior wages, pensions, social security and prospects.

    Scotland does have a strong industrial and manufacturing “heritage” and “history” and many of your grandparents will remember this. Also significant natural resources, oil, gas, hydro, coal, iron, farming and fishing grounds.

    Scotland may be able to sell some of these resources to Ireland in future. Scots may also have the opportunity to seek employment in Ireland due to the continuation of the common travel area.

    One country independent and thriving having managed to throw out its colonial oppressors. One declining, meekly voting for the continuation, a bit more Theon Greyjoy than Willie Wallis.

  103. Lochside says:

    Do people on here really believe that even if the’ Do Nothing’ mob formerly known as the SNP had the political backbone to call a plebiscite on Independence that the UK government would countenance it at all?

    Remember Holyrood is a DEVOLVED talking shop with UK controlled and limited powers assigned to it unilaterally by said UK government. It has no legitimacy to raise a binary Sovereign challenge to the UK. The UK Sovereign Court including its Scottish tokens on it would certainly strike down any attempt to run a plebiscite. The international community would ignore it on the same basis as Shetland attempting to go independent.

    Because the SNP has abandoned Westminster as the interface of Scottish Sovereignty with England and de facto discarded the long established and recognised ( by England) parliamentary majority of seats as the route to dissolving the Treaty and Act of Union. People seem to have forgotten the primacy of our MPs as our Sovereign representatives..not the glorified cooncil Lilliputians in Holyrood.

    From just before Indyref onwards the SNP led by Salmond and Sturgeon have slowly relinquished our Sovereign status by degrees via bent and unnecessary Referenda and focusing on a vainglorious assembly which has little more power than the old Secretary of State for Scotland had.But is hellbent on a virtue signalling self destruct in the face of emasculation by England’s rulers. Now de jure we are reduced to appealing to a Unionist owned and run judicial system via crowd funded patriots with little or no chance of success. The result is further diminution of our ability to assert our Sovereignty to the point of zero.

    The only way back is a new political party solely based on a single issue of Independence and with the dual approach of achieving this via a majority of Scottish Indy MPs ( such as 2015) who on election would declare Dissolution of the Union combined with an appeal to the UN for recognition based on being accepted as a colony which wishes to be decolonised with all the required conditions of Decolonisation as recognised in:
    The Charter of the United Nations which already provides in Chapter XI (Declaration regarding Non-Self-GoverningTerritories) article 73, point b, the obligation on UN members, which have or assume responsibility for the administration of territories whose population has not yet achieved full independence, to develop self-government of the people.

  104. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. our historic claim to popular sovereignty, the “rule of recognition”, and Westminster’s turn towards populist constitutionalism. The Treaty of Union expressly prohibits English majoritarianism imposing England’s will on Scotland. Is our entire legal Establishment ignorant of the role international law plays in maintaining democracy?

    It appears they may also be ignorant of the threat constitutional democracy faces in Brexitania, as English Torydum seeks to re-wright the constitution, in a manner that relegates Scotland to ‘silent junior partner’, at best. And there is no credible opposition to English Torydum in Westminster. So here’s a look at “Popular sovereignty facing the deep state. The rule of recognition and the powers of the people”?

    “This paper investigates the relationship between the idea of popular sovereignty and the conditions for legal validity and argue that the latter imposes definitive limits to the former. Popular sovereignty has been defined as the condition when the will of the people is the “supreme authority in the state”. Following this conception, there is no authority above the people and this is traditionally understood to mean that the authority of the people is above the constitution.

    Legal validity, though admittedly still debated, is here understood along Hart’s “rule of recognition” According to which the validity of norms ultimately depends on the social practices of public officials. Though presumably uncontroversial that democratic peoples are entitled to remake the constitution, the powers of the people with respect to the substance of the law are nevertheless limited with respect to decisions of legal validity.

    The most basic rules in a legal system are not found in the constitution as they are the rules deciding what is to count as a legal norm within that system. They are more fundamental than the constitution because they also define what norms is the constitution legally speaking.”

  105. Stan Broadwood says:

    Go Nicola!!!

    Right oot the door!!!

  106. Contrary says:

    Oh dear. Nicola Sturgeon appears to have a very bad case of the Cringe. I wonder if it’s endemic?

    Interestingly, Joanna Cherry is also not mentioning the s.30 case. Now, I could understand her not wanting to have to fight on too many fronts – and she does appear to have started challenging Nicola Sturgeon – but she also mentioned testing in court. Bloody politics.

    I accidentally attended an SNP fringe event – I DID tell you all about it, but no one listens, do they – organised by the Scottish currency group, open Facebook page here, results of voting posted at the top:

    Okay, I thought it was just about our new reserve bank and currency discussion, and it was, for the first hour – and it was extremely good, so you missed out if you didn’t attend.

    I only realised the rest of it was a fringe SNP event after a few clues, one of them being after tons of people made sarcastic remarks about having a comments section (it was on Hopin, and I thought that was standard) and shock at polling being used – with instantaneous results! I eventually asked, turns out no such features were enabled at the SNP conference – hahaHAHAhaha Democracy my arse! What a hypocrite Nicola Sturgeon is. Cringe of the century.

    I note that NS starts off talking ‘legal route’ then abandons that for the ‘democratic route’ – Acht, you know, I can’t even be arsed commenting on it.

    But, for all those people relying on the s.30 case – don’t. Just don’t, there is a chance NS will be forced into legislating for a referendum if the case wins, but the chances are, going by past and current behaviours, they’ll delay things so long just to allow Westminster time to legislate to change the law first so they can’t in the end.

    Secondly, NS’s plan of the Growth Commission (what the Scottish currency group argues strongly against) means that you would get independence in name only – without our own currency we are still shackled to Westminster and the British state, and we are in for a shit load of pain and austerity. She might talk a good equality/fairer society, but neoliberalism will never deliver that. I’ll take independence any way it comes, but there might be a whole host of people not realising they’d been sold out and want back in!

    Tim Rideout made a comment on Prof Murphys blog, saying he’s talked to thousands of SNP members (he’s a rather focused single-issue person, it was about currency 😉 ), and the only people against the idea of a Scottish pound was Alyn Smith and that Wilson chap. He hasn’t had the opportunity to actually talk to NS about it. But we all know. There is MASSIVE support for our own currency – why does Nicola Sturgeon deny it. You can convince more people by being firm and possible, rather than by deploying more hand-wringing cringe.

    They need to go. They all need cleared out, and they need cleared out now, or January or February. No time for legislation to go through after that I think before May.

    And I wouldn’t rely on the Harassment Committee Inquiry to clear them out either – much of the evidence is circumstantial; damning, but still circumstantial, and it might take a seperate judge-led inquiry with a widened remit to pull teeth – that could take a year or two. We need pressure on more fronts – Joanna Cherry applying pressure is good, and I know she’s risking her career doing it – we could do with an actual mass uprising of MSPs and MPs instead of the few lone voices that there are (Alec McNeil and Kenny MacKaskill, Angus MacNeill and Chris M, I think) – but I’m not sure what would drive them to do so.

    Iain Lawson has been exposing some of the atrocious – undemocratic – changes that have happened within the SNP – which is good (but, will he continue?).

    Obviously, this blog keeps up the pressure. Gordon Dangerfield is making good pertinent points about the harassment committee that clarifies the muddled mess – and he’ll be back on it again soon – and that keeps up pressure there (apparently the committee read his blog, just as the ,,, entire SNP and Scottish government read this one!). Craig Murray is planning to present damning evidence that he says he’s memorised enough of, at his court case in January – maybe that’ll break the camels back? – so even if they don’t release the written evidence he’s requested, he’s still going to make them hurt. Though COPFS are trying to block him giving evidence – at his own trial! As RevStu said, there are possibilities of John Swinney and/or the Lord advocate getting votes of no confidence in parliament, that could cause a huge rupture.

    Okay, now I’ve listed them – pressure fronts – I feel a bit better. I’d like to see more though – we need the stupid politicians to start making moves – they are so glacial slow though.

    Oh! And we have a few other independence supporting parties starting up – well done to those guys – that definitely puts the pressure on politically – and the AUOB organising some unweidy behemoth that’s meant to unite us – good luck for that (I may have accidentally voted in that one too) – that should hopefully have an impact.

  107. Kenny J says:

    Stuart, remember.
    Next poll, “How much do you hate, or like Alex Salmond”
    I’ll pay for the question to be inserted.
    Since I don’t pay the SNP any more, and the National is about to go the same way.

  108. wee monkey says:


    “Alison says:
    30 November, 2020 at 5:52 pm
    £500 for nurses buys a lot of good will. Seemingly.

    Didn’t know those in the care industry were “nurses”.

    Then again what do carers matter anyway, ten a penny at the minimum wage.

    You fucking arse Alison.

  109. cirsium says:

    @Alf Baird, 9.32

    the ScotGov is essentially just a UK Gov department, nothing more,

    That would certainly explain the lack of action on such things as Land Reform, wildlife crime, hydrogen cell development, the development of transport hubs. This list is not exhaustive. It might also explain why the boards of Scottish Water and the new Scottish Investment Bank have been filled with members of the financial and establishment “elites” and why the Crown Prosecution Service of Scotland is permitted to carry out malicious prosecutions.

  110. CameronB Brodie says:

    The more I think about this, the more I’m convinced the FM is a similar character to Tony Blair, who’s a bit of a sociopath.

    “Democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights lie at the heart of our societies and European cooperation. However, their realisation cannot be taken for granted. A conference on these themes, held in Helsinki on 10–11 September 2019, discussed how to safeguard the resilience of our societies in a changing world.

    “The importance of our common European values is greater than ever, because our need for European cooperation is also greater than ever,” said Minister of Justice Anna-Maja Henriksson as she opened the conference.

    “The common value base shared by all Member States is the strength of the Union. It is something that unites us – not something that divides us,” Minister for European Affairs Tytti Tuppurainen pointed out in her speech.”

  111. Hatuey says:

    As I was saying, nothing can happen within the party that will facilitate either a change of policy or a change of leadership. It’s completely stitched up. The only chance for Scottish independence now rests with the Inquiry and they have probably rigged that too. We’ll see.

    To tell the truth, I’m no longer that driven by the desire for independence. Why waste your time desiring something that has been made virtually impossible? I’m more driven now by a desire to see the liars and cheats that scuppered our chances get their comeuppance.

    On that score, assuming the Inquiry comes to nothing or very little, it’s now almost a certainty that the SNP are going to pay heavily in May for their leader’s dishonest and soul destroying ways.

    I’m right back where I started with politics, filled with negativity and hatred rather than hope and ambition. The only difference is that it’s directed at a different party and a different bunch of creeps.

    Oh well.

  112. Morgatron says:

    There is no time for a new party. I believe we have to accept what we have and piss with the cock we have at the moment, but hey, im opened to to plausible suggestions?

  113. Tom says:

    The article at the bottom of pages 6 and 7 of today’s National, ostensibly by our First Minister, is clearly authored by another determined to paint her in a negative light. It is quite shameful in intent.

    But who is the culprit showing such disrespect to our First Minister? There appears to be a clue elsewhere in the paper, so I name Kevin McKenna, and I trust the esteemed editor of The National will be having words with him. At a time when ‘Independence is Coming’ (the National’s front page) next year for sure (we can all feel it coming, can’t we?), we could do without such cynicism.

  114. Morgatron says:

    Hey all, I still pay my dues to the SNP coffers, as ultimately its my party not Sturgeon’s or Murrell’s its mine. It will be reclaimed by Cherry, Mcaskill or who knows but it will be reclaimed. If Sturgeon has brought us close to the finishing line , let some great Scot take us over it.

  115. Willie says:

    Why no results to the election.

    It could have been announced, it wasn’t announced, so what’s the wee arsehole, and I use the word advisedly up to now. Do the donkey members not need to know.

    The wee shite has to go.

  116. Daisy Walker says:

    @ ‘MaggieC says:
    30 November, 2020 at 10:28 pm
    Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,

    Update from the Correspondence page ,

    The Convener responded to Levy & McRae’s letter of 20 November on 30 November 2020 ,

    “ On that basis, and having discussed your letter of 20 November, the Committee does not consider it can meet your request to fund your client to support the work of the Committee. “

    What a bloody awful letter to send to Alex Salmond’s solicitors after what he’s been put through by the Scottish Government .’

    It is triple times shitty. The original complaints procedure (even amended) stated quite clearly BOTH parties were to be supported throughout the process. The Scot Gov enquiry I would suggest is still part of the process.

    As Alex was a card carrying member of the SNP at the time of the allegations and at the time of the complaint – and there is a clear policy under NS leadership of providing Legal Assistance to members of the SNP, it appears Alex may well be subject to discrimination.

    And thirdly he is attempting to ensure (through his lawyers) he abides by the court ruling, to provide the Scot Gov with the documents they already have, but are refusing to release, to the enquiry they said they would support fully.

    And the disclosure they have made have revealed 2 documents the government should have released to the court (under warrant request) but failed to do so, and which could have been instrumental in his defence.

    Alex, I know your first crowdfunded broke the record books in terms of speed, but trust me on this, do another one, it will be faster yet.

    Give us something decent to rally round and cheer Alex.

  117. Polly says:

    I agree, she looked as tired and worn out as her rhetoric. She’s clinging on for dear life til Jam roll Robertson can take over. And won’t that be a happy occasion? I sink deeper into despair all the time.

    Andy Ellis

    ‘Worth remembering the Yes vote went up 20% in the few years before 2014 with an overwhelmingly hostile MSM, Project Fear and a much more effective and united britnat opposition than exists now.’

    True, Andy, but we also had a much more effective and unified yes movement and party than exists now. We’ve shattered too.

    Normski says:
    30 November, 2020 at 8:05 pm
    ‘“That’s not correct. Many were logged in but abstained on votes.”
    How do you know that?’
    Ummm, because many of us were logged in but abstained.‘

    Why on earth would you choose to be a delegate and then abstain? Haven’t you had enough of Labour doing that? So it seems not only are SNP leaders afraid to take any action and SNP parliamentarians opposed to the leaders policy are afraid to make any move against them, but now so many delegates with a vote to effect change are also unwilling to act. It’s unbelievable that so many in SNP have hamstrung themselves. What a smeggin party. No wonder ordinary voters are tearing their hair out.

  118. Willie says:

    Hatuey, bought and sold for……….well you know the rest.

    But I couldn’t agree more that there are many who now absolutely despise Sturgeon for what she has become, what she has done. As the ("Quizmaster" - Ed) who sold Scotland short a fabulous sinecure will be sure to follow as a reward.

    Yep, bought and sold…..

  119. Daisy Walker says:

    Craig Murray on his twitter account 2 hours ago, bemoaning the delay in NEC/president election results. As he points out all voting was done electronically. Press a button and hey presto – result.

    I’ll give it a few more minutes before going to bed. Delays like this don’t bode well with regards integrity of the system.

  120. Hatuey says:

    Contrary, some of us listen. When you mentioned the fringe thing a few weeks ago, I disregarded it as I disregard anything and everything that relies on the Facebook platform.

    As for what you’ve taken the time to type tonight about the inquiry, it’s still possible Salmond could deliver something that surprises us all. Unlikely maybe, but possible. I think they’ll do anything and everything they can to avoid that though.

    I might be more religious than I like to admit. I cant believe providence guided Salmond through the minefields of those trials without a higher purpose. However you want to put it, I sense it’s his destiny to destroy them and I don’t know how he’ll do it, but I expect him to.

  121. Famous15 says:

    NEC results out.


  122. ElGordo says:


    ” To tell the truth, I’m no longer that driven by the desire for independence. Why waste your time desiring something that has been made virtually impossible? ”

    Glad to hear it, I take it you will therefore stop regurgitating the same old very obvious shite on here day after day then?

  123. Famous15 says:

    I may rejoin the SNP but with a much reduced direct debit because the salaried paid help misleading the party are still in post.

  124. Morgatron says:

    As Devoto sang, then I just got tired.
    Fuck the politics, remove the blockages, and get the people in place to get us independence. All this shite that I’m not voting SNP anymore, who the fuck are you gonna vote for. Either your working for the state or brain dead. The SNP isn’t Alex , though I love him dearly, if that’s the case let’s all be together for our country for Alex and for us all.

  125. Grouse Beater says:

    SNP NEC results can be found top of my twitter account.

  126. Famous15 says:

    El Gordo is it worth outing Hatuey?

    He is a bell weather for Indy.

    The more he froths the better Yessers are doing.

  127. peter says:

    Quick look at NEC results. Joanna Cherry in. Alyn Smith out.

  128. vlad (not that one) says:

    @Famous15 23:38 pm

    NEC results out.

  129. Sarah says:

    vlad – Grousebeater’s twitter and no doubt Denise Findlay will post here too.

  130. Bob Mack says:


    Vote for who you like. I am spoiling my first vote but will vote for an Indy party on the list if the NEC is unchanged in nature.

    Before you say it, an Indy Scotland run by these dummies is no freedom at all.

  131. Craig Holden says:

    McDuff says:
    30 November, 2020 at 10:19 pm
    Craig Holden.

    “Are you simple. The reason for this site exposing the SNP as bad is because they bloody well are. Have you been reading any of this stuff? The SNP have NO intention of holding a referendum and by your support for them you are obviously happy to have indy flushed down the pan.”

    You seem to have answered all your own questions there and straight to the ad hominem. That’ll encourage people to re-engage.

  132. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Tom re the article on pages 6 and 7 of todays National were a laugh out loud joy.

    I’ve been buying, but not reading it now for a few weeks, but just glanced at that article today, superb.

    ‘ It seems very strange to be addressing you today from the confines of my kitchen in the east end of Glasgow. I’ve been shoved through here because Peter and his lawyers have taken over the dinning room’
    ‘we’ve cut a deal with the civil servants in Downing Street to use these millions of items of useless PPE equipments such as masks and gowns. Scotland take these off their hands and use them in the new and improved baby boxes for all our expectant mothers (and fathers and those who chose to define as neither).

    Scotland will turn them into nappies and nighties – from the flames of greed and avarice will emerge a pheonix of hope and love. A pheonix of care and compassion. An inclusive phoenix. A non binary phoenix.’

    ‘My friend Joanna Cherry will take a new role as special envoy to the Faroe Islands, based in the Faroe Islands, where she can help shape our fisheries policy going forward.’

    If anyone hasn’t read the full article, please do, its a hoot.

  133. Sweep says:

    Daisy, Jason,

    I’m indebted to you both. I knew it was there somewhere! I knew it!

    See you in a couple of weeks to ask again.


  134. Kangaroo says:

    Have you considered that perhaps Nicola has been “got at” by the powers that be. Bribery, corruption, threats, blackmail are standard fare. Remember the case of Willie McRae. Remember the police officers infiltrating Greenpeace etc, the infiltration of the IRA. The Secret Service were even ordered to stand down in Dallas and removed from JFKs car. Black ops are everywhere, in every country and in every organisation of note.

    The constant delays to indy, the only route is a S30, no plan B, challenging Martin Keatings case, the Salmond fiasco etc are ALL indicators that the SNP has been infiltrated and that NS has probably been “got at”.

    We need to go around the roadblock or remove it completely.

  135. Sweep says:

    The question mark should’ve been a smiley. Though maybe the ? is more appropriate…

  136. vlad (not that one) says:

    Sarah 23:49
    Grousebeater’s twitter and no doubt Denise Findlay will post here too
    Thanks, I saw that but his screenshot is cut short, lower part is missing.
    NB. As a member I did not expect to have to spend hours to search for the flipping results.

  137. Kangaroo says:

    Robert Graham @ 9:40

    You are correct, over the last decades they have perfected nano technology and DNA alteration techniques. The Depopulation Plan appears to be to inject everyone with a DNA altering material and rNA which would cause oxygen depletion within the bodies cells. The recent installation of 5G towers which emit microwave frequencies (would you put your head in a microwave oven) is another red flag. It is now possible to use the 5G signal to cause the rNA altered cells to resonate and cause instant oxygen depletion and death.

    Here’s what happened in Guayquil, Ecuador a trial run.
    WARNING, NOT for the faint hearted.


  138. Kangaroo says:

    And of course they get complete immunity from anything that might go wrong.

    Just remember that Boris already told us what he thinks of Scots and what he plans to do in his Spectator piece
    “need to exterminate that verminous race” or words to that effect.

  139. twathater says:

    El Gordo are you just Schrodinger’s cat come back to boost Niklas words and chances , your words are reminicent of SC’s when he was trying hard to convince people to vote for Nikla and the SNP because Nikla would definitely ,maybe ,surely surprise us all and provide a mandate for a plebicite election , your snide comments against other posters are also very SC , have you been given time off from WGD to rattle the neighbours

  140. Tommy says:

    Can WINGS substantiate the alleged 87k membership?
    If not, I think you ought to retract.

  141. David F says:

    Morgatron says:
    30 November, 2020 at 11:20 pm

    There is no time for a new party. I believe we have to accept what we have and piss with the cock we have at the moment, but hey, im opened to to plausible suggestions?

    We could cut off our cock, insert a straw into what remains of the urethra to keep it from closing as the wound heals, and then piss through the wee hole we have left.

    Signed, A. Eunuch.

  142. Contrary says:

    Hautey at 11.38pm,

    Thanks! I was just being grumpy – and I understand totally about Facebook, I wouldn’t normally click any links for it. I thought it would help to say it was an ‘open’ page – anyone can view it without being on Facebook. I guess that doesn’t help?

    Tim Rideout is a trustworthy soul too – he has been the driving force for making Scotland’s new currency known, explaining MMT, and creating plans for showing how it’s all eminently possible – and much preferable to what we have now.

    In a chat with Tim, he just saw the SNP leadership as an obstacle, with no ideas of what to do, except to get rid of them (summarised in my words not his!). My list above, was me trying to relieve some of my frustration at the entrenched nature of the SNP leadership, their inflexibilithey etc, and those sycophants surrounding them.

    I don’t do religion, but Alex Salmond is a shrewd political operator, as I suspect Joanna Cherry is (except her response to everything appears to be litigation – fine in some cases, and works to her strengths, and good knowledge base for being a legislator – but it doesn’t inspire any trust from me, as long as she sticks to giving us independence though, I’ll support her) – and I see hints of manoeuvring going on, if Alex Salmond does return to the fray, it will be done dramatically, no doubt.

  143. Lorna Campbell says:

    I didn’t expect anything more, I have to say. Will the faithful wake up now and see that this administration will not back independence any time soon, ever? We have three options left: 1) Martin Keatings wins his case and we can hold a second referendum without Westminster’s approval; 2) we make the 2021 election the deciding factor; 3) we prepare a watertight case against the UKG on the Treaty breaching and the UN Charter and take it to the Floor of the UN for remit to the ICJ or one its tribunals. If not I), then, 2); if not 2), then 3).

    Personally, I have always favoured the international route as being the probable end of the line for us – apart from armed conflict, that is, which no one in his/her right mind wants. Many a slip twixt cup and lip, but we are going nowhere unless we try. Nicola Sturgeon can turn her administration into the one that will deliver independence or she can choose to be sidelined. If she has the intelligence she is credited with, she will decide to make independence her legacy and not the GRA reform or ‘hate crime’ bills which are tearing the party apart. She has little to lose now and a great deal to gain – notably, credibility in the eyes of all those who would support her, even now.

  144. SilverDarling says:

    Well done everyone in getting a semblance of balance back to the SNP NEC, to an outsider at least. If the SNP truly want us to have faith in them to deliver Independence they need to start behaving as if it is a priority.

    Time will tell. Hopefully Alyn Smith will reflect on his continued descent back into the mediocrity from whence he came. He really is ‘not all that’ as the saying goes.

  145. Mac says:

    Pleasing… but one swallow does not a summer make.

    There is a lot more comeuppance due. A lot.

  146. Mike d says:

    Aye nicola you can fool some of the people some of the time, but looks like you can fool Scots all of the time.

  147. Alf Baird says:


    You are right, MP’s are sovereign, MSP’s not. Anything organised by current Holyrood is constitutionally questionable. A majority of Scotland’s MP’s could anytime give notification of Scotland’s intention of withdrawal from UK if they wish, which would appear to be lawful, subject to another national vote if required. A better franchise with no external interference would help in the latter.

  148. john rose says:

    Regarding the delay in results, and I see they’re now out, it is fairly normal to check with any winners that they are still prepared to take up the position before announcing it.

  149. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Regarding the delay in results, and I see they’re now out, it is fairly normal to check with any winners that they are still prepared to take up the position before announcing it.”

    I can absolutely tell you that that did not happen.

  150. Daisy Walker says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    1 December, 2020 at 11:55 am
    “Regarding the delay in results, and I see they’re now out, it is fairly normal to check with any winners that they are still prepared to take up the position before announcing it.”

    I can absolutely tell you that that did not happen.’

    Then I wonder what did? because while there is no confirmation that the British State has been orchestrating this wokerati shit show, they’ve been ready to exploit it at every stage, and it would be naive not to think they won’t do so now, even though the ground appears shifted.

  151. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Then I wonder what did?”

    The FM’s conference speech was such weak sauce that almost any interesting story would have booted it well down the news agenda. So the SNP made sure the release missed all the papers’ print deadlines by doing it in the middle of the night.

  152. john rose says:

    @rev, fair enough. I prefer to look for rational reasons before conspiracy theories. Think you might have hit the nail on the head with your last suggestion. Maybe they didn’t want the results to overshadow the speech in the conference, as well as the media…

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