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Wings Over Scotland

The sense of welcome

Posted on March 25, 2017 by

No.10: Jackie Kemp, journalist.


(All clips via the always-excellent Phantom Power Films.)

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  1. 25 03 17 15:56

    The sense of welcome | speymouth

258 to “The sense of welcome”

  1. Betty Boop says:

    One by one..

  2. yesindyref2 says:

    “I just felt Devolution had more to offer”.

    A lot of people would have felt like that. The NO side did have hope as well, not the campaign perhaps, but the voters.

  3. Proud Cybernat says:

    “England left me”. I can understand that pov. The England I see today is not the England I have known in my lifetime.

  4. heedtracker says:

    These are just fantastic. As a YESer and pop fan, Scottish democracy is a bit like this now,

  5. Bob Mack says:

    England is on the way to a true Nationalism. More and more people will eventually recognise that. Here in Scotland I have loved being a part of a movement that is inclusive and welcoming to all rather than the narrow blood and soil Nationalism we see over the border.

    I believe that today there is some type of right wing March on in Scotland. I hope they get a “hot” reception from the public.

  6. Croompenstein says:

    Who will save England from these maniacs wanting to make it the 51st state of the USA. Greed is good if they fail blame the poor and the immigrants it’s a fuckin disgrace.

    The Labour Party had an open goal all they had to do was tap it in and they heaved it over the bar yet the membership is huge so we can only hope a true Labour Party emerges for England.

  7. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I’m a die-hard yesser now, I’m generally ambivalent about membership of the EU, and the lady in this latest video seemed very nice; but in my life as an Edinburgher before and after Poland got EU membership, my experience of their contribution (both personally, and professionally when I was in the Food & Drink Industry recruitment business) hasn’t exactly been something I would say was essential and we couldn’t live without. It’s like Edinburgh only began to bloom after 2004 according to some. Nah mate. Please just gonnae no exaggerate. Thanks.

    Otherwise, very pleasant lady with a good head on her shoulders.

  8. Dr Jim says:

    As the son of an English Mum and Scottish Dad with family everythere in the British Isles this is the England I have always known the only thing that’s changed is they now have a party and government who’s given them the freedom to express it more openly and loudly and it’s acceptable
    and gathering pace in it’s bulldozering insularity
    Today the Welsh Labour party are saying exactly the same things we are, and they know when Scotland goes they’re in deep trouble and don’t mind admitting it, bit different from Dugdale eh

    Devolution for Scotland was never intended or wanted by the Unionist parties it was only the delay button on the remote , the pause, the haud oan the noo, the wait and see how long we can hold them back tactic

    Westminster never worked nor did they want it too so I want my money back and my country, thems the choices, Pick one, Yes their only is one!

  9. Capella says:

    A warm welcome to Jackie in the YES camp. It certainly is the fun team with inspiration, aspiration and respiration! Looking forward to some insightful writing in the future.

  10. Foonurt says:

    Yoan replies, fae Dumfries & Galloway folk ower in thoan ‘National’ [? 23rd Mairch], aboot thurr thochts noo oan Scoattish Independence, wis ah een-oappenurr. Fur guid, ah wid add.

  11. Proud Cybernat says:

    As if we didn’t already know…

  12. manandboy says:

    Since Indy began in 2012, NO ONE from Better Together has spoken about the RIGHT to self-determination.

    England would be NOTHING without that same right, yet it will go to any lengths to prevent Scots from exercising that self same right.

    That’s what comes with thinking you’re an Empire, still. Trampling on the rights of other nations – it’s what the British Establishment has always done.

    Old trampling habits die hard, I guess.

  13. ian says:

    No “blood and soil nationalism”there.Just a sensible reasonably intelligent woman who recognises that the no vote was’nt what she voted for it and turned out to be something entirely different.
    I have been living in france for nearly eight years and work in markets selling cds/vinyl ect and meet many different nationalities and hav’nt felt uncomfortable with any of them.There is a clear feeling that we are all european brothers and sisters.I obviously meet many English people who are quite horrified at the direction England is heading in nevermind the uncertainty it has brought to our lives.
    O to see ourselves as others do.

  14. Proud Cybernat says:

    BBC = ‘Yooncil Telly”

  15. Macart says:

    A big welcome to Jackie. 🙂

    Well said.

  16. shiregirl says:

    I’m the daughter of an English Mum and Scots Dad and have an English Husband. I was born and raised in Leith – Bananay flats and now live in nowheresville/rural for work reasons.

    All are for Indy – and now vote SNP after a lifetime of Labour voting letting them down.

    Welcome Jackie 😀

  17. mike d says:

    Proud cybernat 3.26pm.i can empathise with that. Been in England 41 yrs now, and nothing like the country or people (although not all) i first came to.back then,cheery,helpful,bit of genuine mickey taking about my accent.but now sullenness,blank stares,and open hostility,ie. why don’t you piss off back to scotchland. The daily heil and their ilk have done a grand job.

  18. John Jones says:

    Will Bummer(handjive)Broon and his ilk pay any attention to all the people who have seen the light? I doubt it very much, it doesn’t fit with their idea of what we are, serfs tugging the lock to our betters, He raided our pensions, sold off our gold reserve at a knock down price and let the banks off with embezzlement.I remember him telling us that ” the banks don’t need regulation self regulation works very well” All this from a man who tells us we are not fit to run our own country.
    Why are they still turning him out to lecture us and expecting us to listen?

  19. Ken500 says:

    Millions of folk in England really admire the SNP Gov and the SNP MP’s in Westminster fighting for what is right, keeping to priinciples. Fighting for justice for the vulnerable and caring about others. Just as admired in the rest of the UK and Ireland. With massive support in in Scotland, the EU and the rest of the world.

    50%+ of people in England and Wales can see not reason why Scotland can’t be Independent in Europe. They want the same for England and Wales. Independence in Europe. Over thirty Million+ of the Electorate. In the UK and Ireland. They totally admire Alex Salmond, Nicola and Co, for the way they stand up for fairness, justice and what is right. People of conviction. The unionists never do.

    People really admired Alex Salmond and others attempts to impeach Tony Blair and the moral stance he takes on issues all his life, in the face of malicious forces. If Blair and Brown were impeached it would heal some wounds of their criminality. If justice was served as a warning to others who abuse power.

    The Tory/Unionists are causing chaos in the UK, Europe and all over the world. They are a disruptive force for failure. They always have been and always will be. Arrogant, conceited spiteful and cruel. They think they have the right to rule. They don’t . Their sense of self entitlement is chronic. Their lack of self awareness is pitiful and pathetic. They will not get away with it. Starving innocent people to death etc. They are a danger to society and humanity. The power resides in the people as they will find out. May is even worse than Thatcher. If that was possible. The trouble causing hypocrite who bankrupted the world.

  20. Douglas says:

    Maybe a bit of O/T, but hearing Jackie refer to Edinburgh increasingly feeling more like an European Capital (which I believe it truly is)made me think of our other European city, namely Glasgow European City of Culture (1990). Now I regard Glasgow as a magnificent city in many ways similar to Edinburgh (and of course, other Scottish cities)but different and this was most definitely showcased during 1990 and beyond. It has a capacity to showcase art, culture, music, pop music, media, theatre, opera and cinema in a ways Edinburgh cannot due to the many dedicated venues and dedicated artists. However, I wonder, whether or not the city’s Labour run council would regard this as a positive and now treats Glasgow as a parochial backwater, particularly in light of what may or not become of brexit. I have always thought that if Scotland had the ability to integrate fully with Europe and free of any constraints from WM, then all of Scotland’s cities would have a feel of an European city and perhaps see the birth of a new Scottish Enlightenment. Hope over Fear!

  21. Ronnie says:

    Great films. Are any no voters actually watching them, though?

  22. Bob Mack says:

    We are living in a Union where we have the same wage depreciation as Greece and yet every other country in the EU has its workers wages increasing.
    Those same workers are looking at later retirement up to 70 years of age with no guarantee the State pension will be sufficient to keep them. Yet Unionists try to force us down this road for what ?
    Tradition?, Queen and country.? Democracy? Entitlement ? All the buzz words of Empire.

    There is no reasonable excuse to accept this state of affairs. Everything won since the Enlightenment will be eroded away like rain on sugar.

    We , who look for independence are trying to maintain a modern democratic future whilst across the border they are hankering for an age of Imperial glory long since departed. They want to be important again instead of being an equal partner in families of nations. We must win this time.

  23. heedtracker says:

    Ronnie says:
    25 March, 2017 at 7:29 pm
    Great films. Are any no voters actually watching them, though?

    Europe and Europeans certainly are. If Brexit and the toryboy freak show of teamGB has done anything, from their anti Scots democracy gimps in Pacific Quay, to the endless nauseating Ligger and Fuhrage toryboy BBC love ins, its made the European Union stronger than ever before.

    And that’s some achievement, if you’ve spent any time listening to likes of insanely tory BBC r4, all hoping and praying that Brexit will trigger the collapse of the EU, and even worse, boost the right across Europe.

    Empire 2.0 is all planet toryboy has left, apart from their Scotland region.

  24. Golfnut says:

    What is obviously missing from the collective memory regarding the glory days of empire, is the poverty, abject poverty, of the vast majority of the people, particularly in the cities. The workshop of the world it certainly was in the real sense, poverty wages and long hours. Sounds kind of familiar.

    There was a medical report provided for the military, in 1916, which highlighted the poor physical condition of the population in comparison to Commonwealth contingents sent to Europe during the First World War. In other words, the population was not capable of providing the huge numbers of men required to fight.
    The report by the way, was the genesis for the welfare state.

    Wealth was, then as now, concentrated within the top 1%, dismantling the welfare state just takes everybody back to the good old day’s, just not for us.

  25. Free Scotland says:

    Ronnie says:
    25 March, 2017 at 7:29 pm
    “Great films. Are any no voters actually watching them, though?”

    Ronnie, I hate answering a question by asking another question, but I’m going to do it anyway. Have you drawn the attention of any of your no-voting friends/ colleagues/ relatives/ neighbours/ fellow students/ domino-playing pals/ to the no-to yes videos? If you get the ball rolling, the chain reaction can begin. And ex no-voters converted to Yes will make a better job of reaching other no-voters than you or I could.

  26. Legerwood says:

    O/T but is about independence

    Report in online Daily Telegraph tonight about Senior civil servant and ministers planning strategy really saving the Union

    According to the article Ms Sturgeon’so demand for a second referendum was a surprise and caught them off guard. Aye right. But they have been holding talks with business leaders etc under the radar.

    Very much worth a read.

  27. K1 says:

    From the article you posted Legerwood, I note once again that Jim Gallagher is using his false ‘professor’ title giving the completely wrong impression that he is some ‘expert’ on the subject of devolution and Scotland’s constitutional debate.

    ‘Prof Jim Gallagher, a former leading civil servant who helped the pro-Union Better Together campaign, said: “Brexit has turned Whitehall upside down, creating a new department at the core of the government’s mission’

    There’s clearly some stitch up underway, did we expect that they wouldn’t regroup tae string together some more shiney beads on golden yarn tae entice the usual suspects tae frighten the Scots into submission once again?

    They’re crapping it…big time.

  28. Calum McKay says:

    Welcome aboard Jackie!

    I am minded to think how often in life when people have made a change do they look back and say, I wished I had never done that? Seldom, things change and change for the better!

    How often in life have people thought, I wish I’d stayed with x or y, seldom, there were underlying reason you leave something behind, don’t look back!

    In all respects, the uk is looking back!

  29. Legerwood says:

    K1 @ 10.50

    Just had a quick read of it but it seemed that meetings etc have been going on in the background and more will follow.

    Definitely gearing up now. But the bit about Ms Sturgeon’s announcement of a referendum coming as a surprise did not ring true. They seem to have been setting stuff up in anticipation of it.

  30. K1 says:

    Yeah, they’re using Nicola’s announcement tae cover themselves, they know we know they ‘need’ Scotland’s resources for Brexit negotiations, we ‘are’ the only ‘chips’ they have round that table. Damn tootin’ it’s being going on for months… they think we button up the back.

  31. manandboy says:

    The Telegraph article is well worth a read – so are some of the comments, with these getting the most support:-

    If this is true then it’s a bad mistake. Tell Sturgeon there will be no referendum for at least 5 years and to shut up and go away. This destructive harridan has been allowed to cause far too much trouble over the last few years. Concentrate on getting the best deal for the whole UK, not letting the minority SNP, with its falling poll numbers, influence in any way what Westminster does.


    What we are seeing is yet another of the appalling Blair’s stupid, cowardly decisions having terrible unintended consequences years after the event.

    Do not cow-tow any longer to the SNP. I believe that many Scots are as appalled by SNP cynicism and duplicity as people in the rest of the country. The Brexit talks must go ahead with a robust agenda aimed at the securing the best deal for the UK. There should be no exceptional clauses for Scotland. After the deal, Scotland may choose to hold a second referendum. If that arises, all terms should be dictated by Westminster (date, wording of the referendum, etc). A decision to leave – I believe unlikely – will entail the end of RN shipbuilding in Scotland and the instant removal of any British agencies located there. Frankly, the SNP is a parasite organisation in the UK: constantly demanding more subsidies and powers while always seeking to undermine the wider country. Let it be known to the SNP that enough is enough. If Scotland leaves the Union it will almost certainly be in the same position as it was when it acceded – close to bankruptcy. The best bet would be for PM May to call an election – Ruth Davidson could lead the Scottish Tories towards making serious inroads into the SNP (a sort of reverse referendum on how Scots really feel).


    This is nonsense. I am Scottish. There is no way the SNP will come anywhere near winning a 2nd referendum. We are not sucicidally stupid!


    If more powers are to be devolved to Scotland, then this should only be alongside withdrawal of the subsidies England passes to Scotland via the Barnett formula and other “bungs”. It is a national disgrace that England’s largesse allows, for example, Scottish students to pay no tuition fees at Scottish universities whilst English students have to pay up when studying there. Only ministers and their civil servants could have come up with such a ludicrously unfair arrangement.

  32. Robert Louis says:

    regarding the Telegraph story, never forget that the Telegraph, is the tories media vehicle of choice. Part of their strategy is to make people in Scotland think things, make them believe one thing while in reality something else is actually happening – distraction. I wouldn’t really pay much heed to what the piece says.

    What is important, however, is they felt compelled to say it.

    Westminster getting feart. They really, really are afraid to lose Scotland, yet on the other hand just cannot hide their constant patronising contempt for the people who live here.

  33. K1 says:

    Such a charming bunch of neighbours we have…is there not some way we could help them alleviate their suffering? 😉

  34. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Louis @ 23:35:

    I wouldn’t really pay much heed to what the piece says.

    No, I don’t agree. Underestimate the intentions of the UKGov at our peril. This is a sign that it is really worried and is taking serious steps to try to mitigate the damage that the unfolding Brexit deal will do to the Unionist cause in (the unstoppable) ScotRef, when it finally happens.

    Lining up business people was something that Cameron did on a large scale last time, after all. Deluge voters with scare stories about how their prices will go up with indy. Carefully forgetting that prices are going to rocket anyway due to Brexit-induced inflation. They’ll even try to pin that on indy if we let them.

    I can also forsee some kind of sweetener being cooked up to offer us if only we stay in the UK. Something appealing to the soft nos and the Leavers. That’s the real distraction being planned, the one that matters when the votes go in.

    They just have to hold on to a few waverers. That’s how they see it, and are now actively planning to play it.

  35. K1 says:

    Ah agree Robert JS, the usual suspects are who they are negotiating with, like mini private ‘nissan’ deals. Expect a deluge of business/farming/fishing klaxon like warnings from the go get…its gonnae be rough sailing.

  36. Valerie says:

    I agree with comments about Telegraph, the Tories do use it to leak stuff, to gauge reaction, even get pointers on how to adjust.

    They of course realise Scotland is the jewel, and Nicola has really stymied their Brexit game. You wonder why soft No voters don’t click to how valuable Scotland is, they can’t believe Tories love us.

    They probably have to be careful, as pandering to whiny jocks doesn’t play well. They have no money to give, so it might be some stitch up on federalism, but that’s no use because we want single market access.

    They are fighting on so many fronts, and they are about to get a sharp kick to the wotsits next week. Pay your bill, or no talks.

    The Benefits thing is the first of many rude awakenings. EU says UK must continue to pay entitled benefits, like child benefit being sent abroad, or UK residents in EU will not get benefits.

    Kippers will be foaming at that one.

  37. Ghillie says:

    Welcome Jackie = )

    And well done again Phantom Power Films, keep it up!

    Though I have to say, there is ALOT more to the benefits to and neccessity for Scotland being Independent than Scotland being pulled out of the EU or ‘England leaving us’. Though I appreciate for some folk that was the last straw.

    I have always seen Edinburgh as an International city, thanks in large part to our university. Being European is in our city’s very stones and weaves through the words we have used for hundreds of years.

    I hope that in time you will see Scotland’s Independence not just as a better choice, but as a brilliant uplifting choice = )

  38. manandboy says:

    Robert Louis says: “regarding the Telegraph story, never forget that the Telegraph, is the tories media vehicle of choice.”
    I read recently, Robert, that Murdoch’s Times is now No.1.
    Telegraph No2 perhaps?

  39. Dr Jim says:

    Just had a wee win on the pub bandit and thinking about nipping down to England to buy a town or two

    Long term investment of course, bound to come back one day

  40. manandboy says:

    Reading the Telegraph comments section for the Brexit article, leaves me thinking how misinformed the majority of English people are. Just shows how effective brainwashing can be.

    But that still leaves the attitude of so many commenters to be addressed. It’s a wonder we Scots have been left alive – but we know the answer to that one, don’t we.

  41. manandboy says:

    Is it too soon for an exit poll at the border?

  42. William Wallace says:

    The work that Phantom Power are doing is first class.

    I spoke with them last week and they really need some medium/long term support if they are to keep up with this important work.

    As emotive and powerful as these films are, there are people behind them that need your financial support. People with families and work commitments to balance with their vision.

    If they could have the comfort of taking a year or two without pressure to continue making these excellent mini documentaries, then I am sure that it would be of great benefit to the Independence movement.

    A smackeroonie each to make sure they can continue is a smackeroonie well spent. 😉

  43. Ken500 says:

    Hardly any one reads the Telegraph in the UK. It is just a vehicle for the Barclay Bros to push their right wing agenda The non Dom tax evaders who should be put in jail for crimes against humanity, Arch spiteful malicious Tories who are starving people to death all over the world. They plan to kill even more coming out of the EU so the ‘psycho bastards’ and their associates can continue to tax evade and ruin the world economy. The only thing worse than their greed is their ignorance. They will not get away with it. They will be gone through the courts and the Ballot box.

    The majority in the UK are quite content for Scotland to be Independent with EU membership. For England and Wales to be Independent in Europe. That is the majority wishes any Gov will not defy the people’s will. Or they will be swept aside. The Tories not elected in Scotland have already lost Scotland £Billions with their lies and mismanagement. They will not get away with it. Those days are long gone.

    The Westmster Unionists have done nothing but ruin the Scottish/UK and the world economy since 1928. Westminster Unionists have lied and ruined the Scottish economy since 1928. Illegally hiding their lies and deceit under the Official Secrets Act. They have taken the UK into illegal wars. They have ruined people lives. Illegally killed and maimed innocent people. They are still doing it today. They are the biggest, bunch of lazy lying, evil, greedy criminals that have ever been put on the face of the earth.

    They are finished. Thry ruined the Scottish economy with their lies and cheating promises. Got the UK/world into £Trns of debt. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. All to line themselves and their associates greedy pockets. Including the Barclay Bros. Enough is never enough for these greedy, low life. Immoral criminals. They think they are above the Law. They are not even UK citizens. Tax evading Non Dom MSM crooks bribing public officials and hacking phones. Menacing people and telling lies. They make the Law and break the Law. They think they will continually get away with it.

    The Scottish Economy is once again being devastated by criminal, illegal politicians for whom the majority in Scotland did not vote. Most of them should be in jail. They are disgusting and despised. They think they will get away with it again. They won’t . The Tories will not survive and neither will the corrupt Union. They can clear off. Enemies of the people. Cruel, lazy and unkind, They starve innocent people to death. Total criminals. The majority wants rid of them. The majority can’t stand the sight of them. They make people sick and millions of innocent people die because of them. They lack any humility or humanity.

    The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. They cheated, lied and committed electoral fraud to win a Referendum. They cheated, lied and committed electoral to win an Election. They cheated, lied and committed electoral fraud to win another Referendum.

    The Tories will not cheat, lie and commit electoral fraud to win another Referendum. They have been found out and they will be gone before too long. They have ruined the Scottish economy since 1928 and before. Tried to destroy the world economy even more. That will not be happening any more.

    The Tory intransigence has lost Scotland £Billions of Oil revenues since 2010. Lost 120,00 jobs. Affecting over 360,000 people. Scotland could have had nearly full employment. Instead has lost £25Billion of tax receipts + £25Billion more of imported Oil & Gas. £50Billion. £10Billion+ a year because of Tory rule. Scotland has to pay £1Billion for Trident. Child poverty in Scotland could be eradicated if squint Trident was scrapped. It uscdestroying the Scottish economy with over 6 rotting contaminated hulks at Rosyth. Ruining the Clyde and the Glasgow economy because of it. A threat to Scotland secrurity and survival. A leaking hulk of contamination all over Scotland’s countryside.

    Scotland could save £Billions, £1Billion on a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink or minimum pricing. Making people healthier. The unionists opposed it. Scotland loses £3Billion+ a year in tax evasion because of the Tory policies of which Scotland does not vote.

    It would not be surprising if under the secrecy of the Ballot, while not being scrutinised, corrupt unionist politicians would vote for Independence. Incorredible liars. The majority can’t stand the sight of them and support them even less. Elected under a system that is a mockery of democracy. A revolving door of ignorance. 3rd rate useless rejects getting elected time and time again. The voters can’t get rid of them.

    Under an electoral system the majority of voters do not even understand. People have to vote for people/parties they can’t stand to try to get the candidate/Party they support elected,A travesty of Democracy and choice. Many voters do not understand it at all. It puts people off of voting. They think it is a waste of time. Along with the political process.

    Any ‘so called’ deficit is Westminster unionist cheating policies and intransigence. Illegal wars and banking fraud. Scotland would be in £Billions of total credit with an Oil fund without Westminster unionists illegally taking £Billions from Scotland and wasting it. Keeping it hidden under the Official Secrets Act, The nasty, dirty criminals. £Billions wasted on these policies which could have been better spent. Investing in the economy.

    The Westminster unionists have destroyed the world economy and had the cheek and disgusting nerve to blame the EU and Europe for their and the US failures in policies. Defence/Foreign policies and not sorting out the situation in the Middle East. Illegal wars killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Causing the worse migration crisis since 11WW. Banking fraud/illegal tax evasion. Bringing down the world economy.

    Now the Westminster unionist master criminals want to take down the world economy again. So they and their associates can continue to tax evade and embezzle £Trns of public money. Borrowing and spending £Billions more of illegal money. On illegal Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and squit Trident. When there are safer, cheaper more credible alternatives.

    Not supporting essential services. Illegally starving innocent vulnerable people to death. They will not get away with it. They are owe the EU £Billions in unpaid debts. The EU/ Europeans countries are having to spent £Trns sorting out the UK/US stinking illegal mess in the Europe, the Middle East and the world. They will not get away with it.

    Scotland will be Independent in the EU and the world will be a better place for it. Without the Westminster unionist intransigence and evil ignorance and arrogance. Making the UK one of the most unequal places in the world with the biggest debt. The Westminster incompetent, ignorant lemming are once again going to throw thenselves over a cliff. Scotland is staying in the EU along with their friends and neighbours and there is nothing the disgusting, immoral unelected in Scotland, unionist politicans can do about. Or stop it.

    Good bye and good riddance stinking Westminster rotten to the core of corruption, lies, fraud and unelected privilege. Betraying democracy, equality and any sense fairness. Corrupt to the core because they and their associates do not want to pay their fair share and illegally get away with it. Who holds them to account the people. They would be better to reconsider.

  44. Ken500 says:

    The only thing SKy fake News gets right is the time.

    Happy day to all the Mums/carers. Hope they all get spoilt and a few treats all year around, . Well done and thanks for all you do all year around.

  45. Ken500 says:

    The only one’s responsible for international terrorism and crime are the Westminster criminal unionists and their lying criminal sychophanic Press. Peddling out their lies. The ‘psycho bastards’ at Westminster. Their criminal actions cause the crime. They are above the Law. They make the Law and break the Law, International Law. An illegal Police State. The criminal justice system does not hold them to account.

  46. PJtharsalie says:

    Well Scotland, do you suppose the Irish have any regrets?

    About independence: no
    About partition: yes, of course

    You will not find anyone in Ireland wanting to go back to English domination and decisions being taken for us by the English. We wouldn’t want that even if we were better off, which of course we never were. Ireland today is better off than any part of the UK. Being independent and part of the EU and the single market are the reasons for that. We never felt the need “punch above our weight” invading other countries as Uncle Sam’s sidekick (we just participate in UN peacekeeping to help prevent conflict and bloodshed). None of our taxes go on nuclear weapons or nuclear submarines.

    Ireland never had an oil. Nor any industry. For centuries its main export was poor people. Today the UK exports more to Ireland than it does to China, India and several others combined–because Ireland, free of English rule, is modern and prosperous country. It’s very much part of the EU and contrary to the UK fantasies has no desire at all to leave. We’re an island geographically but deeply connected and interdependent in every other way (we have Europe’s largest airline for one thing). We don’t see ourselves as “ruled from Brussels” as the English like to foam at the mouth about; we participate in the decision making.

    The typical English brexiteer likes to cite the fact that the Irish “were told to vote again” when they rejected the Lisbon Treaty “and come up with the right answer”. This sneering ignorance reveals much about English attitudes. Of course, having been portrayed as gorillas with shillelaghs in the English press for a long time the Irish are not overly surprised that they imagine Brussels had merely usurped their traditional role.

    The truth is very different, and it’s one that may a interest Scotland historically dominated by England. First, the consent of the Irish people in a referendum is required for any treaty change (the entire Lisbon treaty was therefore dependent on the approval of the Irish). The people decided they were not agreeable to losing their permanent EU commissioner and voted no. They preferred messier and more inclusive decision making in which they were always represented to the proposed situation of small countries taking it in turns to be represented. They weren’t told to vote again. The govt told the EU it wouldn’t hear of a 2nd vote on the same terms as the first. Later, when concessions had been negotiated, including the retention of the Irish commissioner, a 2nd vote was held and passed.

    Sometimes the 2nd referendum is gold 🙂

    Scotland shouldn’t be dragged out of the EU by the English. It will have more influence as an independent nation and an equal partner of Ireland and others than as a bit of the UK that is dominated by the English who can overrule it (they can) more easily than the EU can overrule the Irish (they can’t). Who could not believe that Scotland can do at least as well as Ireland? It is inconceivable.

    The English have some growing up still to do to transition from imperial masters to an ordinary country. This sums it up well:

  47. People Carrier says:

    Anyone know the arrangements/details for the anti BBC march today?

  48. McDuff says:


    So the world cup qualifying game between Scotland and Slovenia will be shown on Sky thus denying thousands of Scots from watching their national team. But as way of compensation over on “STV“ they will be able to view the England v Lithuania game for free. Can you imagine the reaction in the south if the position was reversed.
    Surely the England game would be far more lucrative for Sky to show with its billions available than the Scotland one so what is going on. I simply cannot imagining this happening in any other country and it enrages me.
    There has been a dumbing down on television over the years of anything Scottish whether it be traditional music ,dance or our national football coverage.
    I don`t think I need to spell out what has and is going on.

  49. Ken500 says:

    The unionist Party’s lies and actions disgust people and make people feel phisically sick. Their behaviour gives people mental health problems from the anxiety and stress their unfair and unequal criminal policies cause. They cause death, destruction and poverty the world over, The greedy, wicked, lying cheating sycophants, ‘psycho bastards’. Their own description. They will not get away with it.

  50. Legerwood says:

    The Editorial from The Observer on triggering Article 50 is a good read too.

    Have not got time to say more

  51. People Carrier says:

    Does anyone know the arrangements for the BBC march today?

  52. DerekM says:

    Welcome to the yes movement Jackie.

    Great film from Phantom just one wee suggestion guys please drop the music from the background when folks are talking.

    It might be a technical wonder but it can make it hard for those who cannot hear very well to pick out the dialogue over the music.

    On a side note i see wannabe King Dan has been tweeting about how “nationalism is an infantile disease,it is the measles of mankind” in a rip off of Einsteins speech about the nazis.

    These English elite are so far up their own backside they can not even see that they portrait the very symptoms of the kind of nationalism Einstein abhorred.

    Hey Snow Einstein was a Jew you know and was a lot smarter than you will ever be,you disgust me using his words to back up your British nazi Empire bullshit.

  53. mike cassidy says:

    Legerwood 10.09

    So Ben Gummer is the man charged with taking us down.

    A man with no apparent connection to or interest in Scotland.

    Then I found this.

    “I was being sworn into the Privy Counsel by Her Majesty The Queen – a rite of passage for all cabinet ministers that brings you into one of the most ancient political institutions in our country. Also being sworn in was the glorious Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party, someone widely respected across Scotland and increasingly our United Kingdom as a whole. We both swore the ancient oath in front of The Queen. As I thought of the immense honour of the moment, I also thought about how Ruth – a Scottish politician in a devolved Scottish Parliament and the first gay leader of a modern political party in our country – was just by her presence showing how much had changed in the last few years, let alone in the decades since Her Majesty first assembled her Privy Counsel. The stability and continuity she has brought, and the monarchy has ensured, has made it possible for Ruth Davidson to be there, in her position, open about who she is and who she wants to be. In several senses, she shows how everything changes; yet what makes that good change possible is because some things stay the same.”

    A case of libertarianism except for viewers in Scotland

  54. Thepnr says:

    Great to see the personal stories of those that have made the journey from No to Yes and I really enjoy all of them.

    Well how about making the journey from yes to YES?

    Despite my total commitment to gaining our Independence for years now I have not been vocal enough with any individual. Well that has now changed and I wear my heart on my sleeve.

    I work internationally and with all nationalities many are English of course so rather than “rock the boat” I was more likely to keep stum. My livelyhood depended on it after all.

    Now though no more, just in the last two days I have “educated” two Englishmen as to the reason for my support for Independence.

    It started with one guy saying “only 4 days until Brexit” he was excited about it. I said “only 3 days until May gets handed Scotland’s demand for Independence”. Well then the shit kicked off too wee, too poor, too stupid! I had him cowering within 5 minutes.

    “Do you know how many Tory Mp’s Scotland has elected in the last 20 years? 1997 NONE! since then just one Tory MP to represent Scotland.”

    His response was to tell me that “we” have too many immigrants.

    I said “well looks like you plan to get rid of them so rejoice. But tell me who is going to mop your hospital floors or make your sandwiches. What of the EU brain surgeons do you want rid of them too?”

    It wasn’t a very good discussion to be honest and his ignorance was astounding all gathered from the BBC or the Daily Mail no doubt.

    The second guy just last night was a London voting remainer and our discussion was a bit more pleasent but his ignorance was as bad as the first guys.

    My point? I am no longer afraid to speak out, no matter who I might have to talk to. I intend to let everyone know that I support an Independent Scotland and that I’ll tell them why.

    No more hiding in the corner and keeping your views to yourself.

    Be YES and PROUD get the message out cause no one else will!

  55. Bunny Daft says:

    I read the Torygraph article too – I always keep an eye on their website to see what the enemy is up to. And while this piece yesterday is in keeping with many of their recent Rule-Britannia-handbagging-Junker themed stories (to keep the braying Home County zealots juiced up before the ice berg hits) the idea that they’re now training civil service departments on putting the northern savages back in their place set me wondering.

    The Tories are hated and despised in much of England too. My mother is English, and I lived for 8 years in Yorkshire in my twenties. Most of my friends are still in England, and are pissed beyond belief at the prospect of Brexit. I lived in Sheffield, a city that felt in terminal decline with every passing year – it was such an eye opener coming back home to Glasgow in 2009 and seeing what a buzz it had. We can never allow our country to become like the north of England. Betrayed, embittered, angry, voiceless and hopeless (the main reason Sheffield voted for brexit).

    But there are many people down south that are very frightened about losing EU citizenship too. Does anyone know what the position is for English/Welsh refugees in an independent scotland? We should make it widely known that former UK citizens will be free to move into Indy Scotland (and retain EU membership) – for a limited time period at least. Every single scared Remainer down South will suddenly become a lot more sympathetic to an indy Scotland, I can assure you.

    Divide and conquer works both ways. The prospect of an indy Scotland could give hope to all progressives in the whole of the UK. And we could seriously do with some honest support in England turning the screw on the Tories in their heartlands.

  56. Ken500 says:

    The Tory Westminster criminals are now blaming Google for own their total incompetent. Google the tax evading multinational who do not pay their fair share. Supported by unionist tax evading policies. The criminal Tory/Unionist now want to ban free speech even more in the criminal surveillance Police State the Westminster crooks have created. Criminalising innocent people. While the crooks in Westminster get away with their crimes and break the Law at every opportunity with impunity. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The Westminster unionist muck up the Scottish economy and think it’s funny. Folk see them laughing, joking and lying about in the Westminster chamber.

  57. Robert Peffers says:

    Am I alone in seeing the Westminster & Holyrood Parliamentary suspensions due to the claimed terrorist attack on Westminster as both overly sanctimonious and totally hypocritical?

    I do so in view of the fact that neither of these Parliaments have made the slightest move, other than to gloss over, the USA aircraft attack that mistakenly killed, “dozens”, of innocent civilians in Mosul?

    Not to mention the almost total silence of the corrupt United Kingdom media who are still attempting to make political capital over the Westminster incident while drawing a veil over that of the much more serious Mosul slaughter of innocents.

    Seems it is of little or no consequence if the innocent victims are mainly Muslims but is a World shaking event if it is in the vicinity of Westminster members. None of which Westminster members were actually in any real danger.

  58. pipinghot says:

    OT perhaps but my German neighbors have just sold their house and are returning ‘home’ sickened by the threat they feel living in the UK, they are only too happy to take the hit changing their pounds to euro’s to get the hell out. The people who have bought it are an English family, sickened by the threat of living in the UK…………… Welcome I say

  59. Dr Jim says:

    Another day of divisiveness dawns where the Scotland that doesn’t really exists football team get to play on the radio
    in full glorious blank screen while we listen to people tell us what we’re not looking at

    England however get their football team not only on their Tellys but Scotlands Tellys too
    Now I’m not a great footy fan but I do like to watch the odd game now and again and when the National team of my country comes on the Telly it’s something I’d like to see, not just for me but for a sense of the Identity of the country that I inhabit

    I’ve nothing against the England footballers I don’t even know any them and to be fair I don’t care about them either so what’s the point I say to myself of putting these guys on my Telly but not my own guys from my own place
    Scotland contributes to the licence fee in the amount of the population covered so why am I paying for English football as opposed to getting my moneys worth of misery from my own country’s team

    Is it because Scotland is expected to lose or is Scotland really boring Telly and if it is who makes that decision on my behalf that my cash is better spent in England than in Scotland and then I remember the words of that political sage Boris Johnson who said a pound spent in Croydon is better than a pound spent in Strathclyde

    And I’m satisfied that my interests are being taken care of by those who know better and are my betters and their understanding of the needs of my country are best served by the likes of Boris Johnson and indeed the BBC so I can settle down and eat my cereal contentedly

  60. uno mas says:

    No Mr Peffers, you are not alone in that observation.

    Not by a long chalk!

  61. we want democracy says:

    Jeremy Corbyn on Peston On Sunday still repeating the GERS lie about Scotland’s £15 billion deficit and once again claiming they are the Scottish Government’s own figures.

  62. Ken500 says:

    The majority in England/Wales want to stay in the EU. They were deceived, cheated and lied to by right wing/unionist criminals to vote to leave the EU. Against all reasonable argument. Wales has the least amount of migration and receives the highest level of EU support. Yet a higher majority in Wales voted for Brexit. 56%? The bulk of the Westminster illegally borrowing goes to support London S/E. It is becoming perfectly clear, what a disaster Brexit will be. May could be gone within two years. The muck up will be increasingly obvious. The warnings will start to be realised. Then what will they do? The Tories are receiving increased criticism for their deviant, undemocratic policies.

    A GE will come and the Tories could be voted out. Imagine the mess then. Another lot of unionist incompetent ignoramouses will be in Westminster. To cause even more chaos. Hopefully Scotland will be out of undemocratic unfair mess by then. Making it’s own way within the EU equal partnership of support. The only way to throw off the dead wood of Westminster policies and successfully improve the Scottish economy

  63. Packhorse Pete says:

    Legerwood says:
    26 March, 2017 at 9:55 am
    The Editorial from The Observer on triggering Article 50 is a good read too.

    Thanks for that- a stunning indictment of the lunatics and their charge over the Brexit cliff.

  64. Breeks says:

    Just seen this on Twitter….

    Don’t know about you, but my first instinct is how do we get a delegation of Scottish Engineers over to Germany to see what we can learn and initiatives we can share. European nations trying to innovate creatively and working together and re-purposing redundant facilities.

    Contrast this with the UK’s Hinckley Point, flying in the face of conventional wisdom, underwritten by dodgy dealing under the counter with the Chinese, and paying no heed to the issue of nuclear waste. A regressive development which I simply wish wasn’t happening. I can learn all I need to know about Nuclear energy from Fukushima and Chernobyl.

    @Legerwood 9:55
    That is a good article. What I find really interesting is the BTL comments. There seems to be an increasingly vocal opinion that Brexit is an act of reckless self harm which requires a better PM and government than Theresa May and the Brexit Allstars to sort out and salvage something short of total disaster. There still are the shrill Britnats calling Brexit a great opportunity, but fewer of them. They have always sounded thoroughly unconvincing, but now they sound increasingly unconvinced. A bit like a rude child swearing in decent company; a moments pause, then the adult conversation carries on.

    Sadly it is all too little, too late. This week will see ScotRef formally happening, and Article 50 is triggered. I rather suspect newspaper headlines over the next couple of weeks might be worth saving for posterity, not so very unlike the buoyant optimism in the final pictures of SS Titanic sailing over the horizon.

  65. jomry says:

    O/T – but connected
    Optimism will be a key ingredient in indyref2 and these NO to YES journeys will be excellent campaign resources. Positive stories underpin self-belief and self-confidence and are enormously important in persuading others that an independent Scotland will be a successful country. And so it is with some sadness that we learn that health problems have forced Pro John Robertson to cease political activism through his “Talking Up Scotland ” blog .

    Those familiar with it will know that Prof Robertson recently switched his emphasis from challenging media bias to “Talking up Scotland” – He has been assiduous in scanning trade, scientific, economic, financial, health, educational and sociological journals and publications and presenting research and reports which reflect the many ground-breaking developments taking place in Scotland today.

    The articles reflect a vibrant, positive and forward-looking Scotland.Very few of these developments are relayed to us through MSM and broadcast media. And of course the bias of MSM and broadcast channels stems as much from what they omit to report as much as from slanted reportage. If anything, it is even more insidious.

    The MSM continually attempt to dent such optimism. Just scan the headlines in any news stand in a supermarket and you have an ever present pageant of negativity boring into the consciousness of those who pass, whether they buy a newspaper or not. And while the falsehoods and unwarranted claims need to be challenged through sites like Wings, this invariably involves following an agenda not of our making.

    I felt that John Robertson’s blog, with its growing audience, was a positive response to this, providing a “news stand” of positive headlines – effective at a confidence-boosting level, even if you didn’t go on to delve into the articles themselves. We need a showcase of the many technological developments, scientific breakthroughs, innovations and enterprises, business and social achievements – which never see the light of day in our main channels of communication.

    We need to present them in their own right – rather than being simply ripostes to agendas set by others. And we need to present them to a wider “unconvinced” audience over the coming months- and we are all struggling to find the best way to do this.

    I, for one, am grateful for the extensive work John Robertson has done to promote an independent Scotland, wish him well and hope his health improves. And I hope that someone can fill the gap he leaves.

  66. Dan Huil says:

    @jomry 11:19pm

    I second jomry’s comments about Prof J Robertson.

  67. Tackety Beets says:

    Well done Thepnr .

    Alex, like you I find the lack of general modern and historical knowledge is astonishing.
    Last week an nice couple holidaymakers I was friendly chatting to stated how much they loved the bagpipes and tartan kilts etc then added how disappointed they felt about the impending iRef2

    They had no idea about Butcher Cumberland , banned pipes & tartan etc and it was not until the early 1800 these matters were relaxed.
    I added my personal bit about Highland Games , you know Braemar , Lonach , Aboyne etc were then re-introduced to their communities cica 1820s to “Preservation of Highland dress and Gaelic Language etc etc ”

    Then bringing us to recent events , you are so right they are soaking up the miss-information from General MSM

    We walk a fine line trying to impart information , correct folk with info and do it in a nice way.

    I find it hard at times to not be cross when the spout $hi£e.

    Football :

    Our current situation is not new.
    In the 90s we had a midweek break to Plockton. We had lunch on the Wed in local pub, seeing the telly I asked the barman if the football would be on tonight.
    “Ach , I’m not a football person but if there are games on it will be on” he confirmed.

    I know Scotland was playing in a qualifier so I persuaded my better half we could walk down for a few drinks & I could keep one eye on the game.

    Little did I know Engerland were playing a friendly and it took pref in Scottish TVs & our national team was NOT transmitted

  68. Capella says:

    @ Robert Peffers – I agree with you Robert. The UK seems to be able to cope with other peoples’ suffering with equanimity. Specially when it is caused by our bombs.

    However, the UK media are racked with horror if someone is motivated to retaliate. How was he radicalised? Obviously it was the fault of Google, Facebook and Twitter.

    Nothing to do with votes in Westminster to bomb the Middle East.

  69. Thepnr says:


    I have great respect for Dr John Robertson, it’s very important that knowledgeable people such as himself make themselves heard and I will miss his input into the debate.

    There can be no doubt that passion for any subject can be debilitating. It can cost you your job and it can also make you fall out with family and friends.

    But know this, after you fall out then there is always the possibility of making up. Those that deny an Independent Scotland are not all the same. Some will never change for their own selfish reasons, that’s a given. Others though are mainly just scared of change and that’s the point of Project Fear.

  70. Robert Peffers says:

    @Packhorse Pete says: 26 March, 2017 at 11:12 am

    “Thanks for that- a stunning indictment of the lunatics and their charge over the Brexit cliff.”

    hey! Packhorse Pete, that’s a very strange way to spell, “Lemmings”.

  71. Double page spread on Nicola and her family and a nice piece about Russell Kane, Shapi Khorsandi and other folk from the south looking at flats in Edinburgh for possible escape from post Brexit England in the Sunday Herald. Oops – mistake there – in the Sunday Sun.
    Can’t find anything at all supporting independence in the Sunday Herald.

  72. Ken500 says:

    Corbyn is useless. Along with the rest of them. Anyone who is interested can e-mail him to point out the degression and misinformation Fake News Lies.

    Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Have caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. The unionist criminal liars killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Ruining the world economy. They should be put in jail for what they have done. The only way for closure. So that no one tries it again.

    Best wishes to Prof Robertson. Sad news.

    Well done. Maybe someone can take up the baton.

  73. Effijy says:

    mike cassidy says:
    26 March, 2017 at 10:19 am
    Legerwood 10.09
    So Ben Gummer is the man charged with taking us down.
    A man with no apparent connection to or interest in Scotland.


    I see that our English Masters are re-writing history for us again.

    He states that Ruth Harrison is the first Gay Leader of a UK Party?

    I would also say that there is no Scottish Conservative party as they do as they are told by Westminster, to the letter.

    I would also ask what Patrick Harvey is, if not a longer term gay leader of The Scottish Green Party?

    Anyway, silly me thinking that a Tory would utter a word of truth towards the general public.

    A Government of the Rich, by the rich and for the rich.

  74. naina tal says:

    Just came across this on the excellent Facebook page Over 60s for Scottish Indy. A great first blog about a lot of the stuff that bothers most of us about Scotland’s present situation.

    Sorry if it’s been linked before.

  75. Robert Graham says:

    O/T No Apology. Independence live on air from 2.00 Yet another Protest from the BBC bunker please give them some support .

  76. schrodingers cat says:

    guardian editorial

    It fell last week to Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, to throw a cold bucket of reality over the ultra-hard Brexiters’ fantasies. The effect was chilling. Barnier made clear May’s “no deal” option was no option at all. He warned of queues of lorries at Dover, chaos for ordinary citizens and custom controls on trade from day one of the UK’s withdrawal. Barnier also made plain the EU would not even begin to talk about a post-Brexit trade deal until Britain agrees to cough up the estimated £50bn Brussels says it owes in prior commitments. The figure is disputed. But the principle is not. Britain faces a hugely costly settling of accounts, whatever parti pris barristers may advise. For good measure, Barnier insisted the Irish border conundrum and citizens’ rights must be resolved before other Brexit matters can be discussed.

    brexit negotiations will take 2 hrs, not 2 years,
    no trade deal. uk will have no choice but to leave this autumn

    the section 30 will be delayed by treeza, and nicola will not hold indyref2 until it is agreed. good

    support for indyref2 and yes are directly proportional to how bad brexit will be. if it is shown by polls support consistently above 50%, the unionists will be reduced to arguing about our mandate to hold indyref2. waiting to see the outcome of the negs will be ancient news by then.

    I think the unionists will continue block us on this mandate issue, what choice will they have? with yes over 50% why would they sign the section 30

    I foresee holyrood being dissolved and a new election in spring 2018 with a manifesto specifically about indyref2 and the threat of udi if the section 30 isnt signed.

    an official offer by the eu on an indy scotland being granted automatic and immediate EEA membership would be welcome

  77. HandandShrimp says:


    I agree, a clear steer on Scotland post A50 on the EU position would be extremely welcome. One only has to look at the reaction to the report to the EU Parliament that Scotland should stay in the EU pending an Indyref result has had amongst the more strident Unionists to see how that would play out in any campaign. An almost immediate “but but Spain but” 🙂

  78. schrodingers cat says:

    Dan Huil says:
    26 March, 2017 at 11:35 am

    @jomry 11:19pm

    I second jomry’s comments about Prof J Robertson.

    me too

  79. Smallaxe says:

    Breeks: @ 11;16

    This is worth a look for anyone interested, I’m not asking anyone
    to join or donate.This is an American site against Nuclear Power that I follow out of interest, it has a lot of relevant info.

    Peace Always

  80. @Robert Peffers

    I had read about the coalition (us) air strikes killing hundreds of civilians in Mosul from Sputnik the Russian news agency,

    like all news agencies they have an agenda, I take what they say and then check their facts,

    this is from the site `Iraq Body Count`,

    Thursday 23 March: 354 killed
    Mosul: 230 by coalition air strikes; 108 in booby-trapped houses; 3 by mortar shelling; 1 by rocket; 3 women executed; 1 by IED.
    Hawija: 5 by IED.
    Sinjar: 1 journalist in clashes.
    Baghdad: 1 by gunfire.

    Wednesday 22 March: 71 killed
    Mosul: 44 by coalition air strikes; 19 by shelling.
    Ramadi: 6 by government air strikes.
    Baghdad: 2 by IEDs.

    Tuesday 21 March: 48 killed
    Mosul: 31 by coalition air strikes; 8 by shelling; 3 bodies.
    Hamrin: 5 by IED.
    Baghdad: 1 by IED.

    Saturday 25 March: 219 killed.
    Mosul: 197 executed in various locations; 9 killed by shelling; 4 by IED.
    Amirli: 7 in clashes.
    Baghdad: 1 by IED.
    Kirkuk: 1 by gunfire.

    Documented civilian deaths from violence
    172,514 – 192,550

    nearly 200,000 civilians who have had their life violently cut short by an illegal war sanctioned with a vote by Members of Parliament in Westminster,

    Brutish values.

  81. Ken500 says:

    The ex RBS chairman appointed Fred Goodwin and caused the illegal Banking crash so he could get more shareholder dividend embezzled from pubic money, and terrorise the staff. Helped by Gordon Brown’s ignorance, conceit and arrogance. Complete incompetence, Taking down the world economy and causing millions of innocent people to be maimed and killed.

    People should be mindful of their advice. A bunch of criminal, crooks most of them should be in jail. Not lecturing people with complete nonsense. To keep on lining their pockets with illegal embezzled money. Harming the vunerable and the world economy,

  82. heedtracker says:

    Listening to BBC r4 endless Westminster attack coverage today, watched David Lidington flounder on Ligger Neil’s vote Leave love the tories Sunday Politics show, on Westminster security, it looks awful.

    Just hope to god Faslane security is at least awake but its just another example of why Westminster was not stupid enough to store their nuke weapons anywhere near them.

    He likes the Scottish western isles but he looked really really shaky on Wesminster security, with the Ligger doing his head master about to thrash you thing.

  83. Ken500 says:

    Dan Snow the arch Tory spokesman married to the sister of one of on the wealthiest man in the UK. Tax evades on his £8Billion vast fortune. Duke of Westminster. The father died last year and paid no death duty or taxes on the vast fortune. The father suffered from depression most of his life despite the vast fortune. Maybe they should pay their dues and fair share.

    Dan Snow’s great grandfather Lloyd George assisted the (secret) illegal Balfour Agreement that gave the right to a Jewish State on Palestinian land. 1917. Illegally Partitioned Ireland 1922. Two unfortunate undemocratic decisions that have lead to bloodshed till the present day. Snow still lectures Scotland to stay in one of the most undemocratic, unequal destructive Unions ever made.

    Westminster criminal liars destroy the world economy. Killing and maining innocent the world over. Snow a chip off the old block of undemocratic, interfering conceit and ignorance of monumental proportions of destruction. Snow should read a few more history books. Or do a but more competent research on the internet, instead of talking nonsense.

  84. Artyhetty says:


    Did you see the article in the National yesterday about staff striking at Faslane? Planned overtime ban and on call ban, up until June. Pretty much every area of operations, lovely eh. Fcks sake.

    Apparently, and I didn’t know this, the ‘royal navy’s ENTIRE subs fleet is to based at Faslane from 2020’. Oh aye.

    We have to get out of this dangerous union, before it’s too late.

    Will check in later, looks like from some comments, that the yoons are plotting against Scotland, big time, again. It won’t just be businesses they are briefing in these islands either.

  85. Hamish100 says:

    Politics Scotland

    Our sole labour MP could be the replacement for IM Jolly — is the guy that upbeat all the time? We are all meeting in Wales (he bleats)
    Gordon Brown, Dugdale Murray . I hope they are going by car , imagine being stuck on a plane or train with that lot chanting “we have a mandate , we have a mandate”

    Cloud cuckoo land – labour not electable in England or in Scotland.
    Obviously their great devo plus plan has fallen through so now we have federalism to be their spoiler. What criteria is required for that as a mandate? Don’t they realise May has said No and as brexiters they just have to accept it.

  86. Ken500 says:

    UKIP is going ape because Douglas Carwell is now standing as an Independent. He should stand down and stand for re- election.

    Farague/UKIP will lose £Millions of Westminster legitimate support for elected Political Parties. UKIP will loses £Millions of public money that Farague uses to illegally fund the Party and an extravagant, affluent lifestyle. Living in a London mansion with a French woman who is also being investigated. A total scam. Farague is an alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor bad decisions without proper ‘total abstinence’ rehab counselling.

    UKIP is finished anyway. The EU is checking up on €Million of public money Farague claimed illegally to fund the Party. and lead an extravagant, afflent lifecstyle. Farague is a crook who has been illegally claiming public to fund UKIP and not put in accounts or receipts. Arron illegally launders the (public) funds through his offshore accounts. Then uses them as ‘donations’ to fund the Party, Arron is the bag man. Nothing but a bunch of total crooks illegally embezzling public money for years and protected by the Tory grandee. A an illegal total scam.

  87. Lenny Hartley says:

    Hope everybody has a good day at Pacific Quay, unfortunately won’t manage to come along, hope there is a good turnout, lovely day for it 🙂

  88. heedtracker says:

    Artyhetty says:
    26 March, 2017 at 2:14 pm

    Did you see the article in the National yesterday about staff striking at Faslane? Planned overtime ban and on call ban, up until June. Pretty much every area of operations, lovely eh. Fcks sake.

    It is really worrying. Its like they still don’t get what jihad suicide terrorism actually means, with all rational security processes based on everything but. And its also why they stash their nuke bombs as far from London as humanly possible. That’s the real horror.

  89. schrodingers cat says:

    HandandShrimp says:

    I agree, a clear steer on Scotland post A50 on the EU position would be extremely welcome.
    they have said we will need to rejoin the eu under article 49, that is the eu’s official position, but many have indicated in press reviews that we would be fast tracked, which isnt the same thing

    One only has to look at the reaction to the report to the EU Parliament that Scotland should stay in the EU pending an Indyref result has had amongst the more strident Unionists to see how that would play out in any campaign. An almost immediate “but but Spain but”
    the question of eu membership should be booted into the long grass after indyref2, since it will defo need another euref to create a mandate for nicola to apply

    I talking about EEA membership, which nicola does have a mandated to apply for and which the eu have said nothing yet.

    BT2 will undoubtably attempt to confuse eu membership and eea membership deliberatey since it undermines their scare stories, ie spain can only block and veto scotlands eu membership request if scotland actually requests to join the eu, if we dont, they cant

    eu membership should and will not be part of indyref2 campaign, that is a separate issue to be decided once we are independent

    access to the single market, or the lack of it, is what will drive the news cycle in the coming years, it is this which will damage the uk economy, it is this that will drive nos 2 yes, not eu membership

    EEA membership guarentees an indy scotland access to the single market and in terms of indyref2, eu membership is irrelevent

  90. Hamish100 says:

    Ken 500

    You have heard of defamation?

    You want WoSc to be inveagled in your claims?

  91. Thepnr says:

    @schrodingers cat

    What’s important is neither EEA or EU membership. It’s what will gain us Independence. WE’ll know soon enough what the options are.

  92. schrodingers cat says:

    what will gain us independence is the opportunity indyref2 brings to the reverse the inevitable and disasterous effects that the uk will experience by withdrawing from the single market.

    both eea and eu membership offer access to the single market, EEA is just easier to sell, satisfies the greatest number of voters and easier to get an prior agreement from the eu for an indy scotland to automatically and immediately gain access to the eea on the day we vote yes

  93. Thepnr says:

    @schrodingers cat

    I agree.

  94. frogesque says:

    @Lenny Hartley 2.55

    Don’t think anyone turned up, I’ve just searched the BBC website and there’s no news of any demo.


  95. Lenny Hartley says:

    Frog risqué, your probably right you can get a right freezing wind comes off the Clyde on a day like today, probably put everybody off.

  96. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 16:03:

    EEA is just easier to sell, satisfies the greatest number of voters

    While I agree with the rest of your posting, I don’t agree (surprise, surprise! =grin=) with your EEA hobbyhorse, which you have taken far beyond the SG’s compromise offer to stay in the UK that is now a virtual dead duck. You have no evidence for the presumption that it is a winning strategy for something as different as ScotRef.

    There’s no reason that “little Scotlander” EU-haters will be any more willing to agree to EU-lite, for which they have to shell-out just as much as for full EU membership, while having none of the advantages, such as a seat at the top table influencing decisions. (Which is real sovereignity in action.)

    Equally, there’s no evidence that all those No-to-Yes converts like Jackie here (a warm welcome!) are going to be convinced by an inadequate half-way house.

    Your proposition for EEA seems to be based on nothing more than a presumption of some electoral advantage, not on any obvious principle. The calculation could just as easily go the other way, backfire by satisfying no-one.

    I believe the SG’s view is an admirably principled one. Fiona Hyslop, when challenged during last Tuesday’s debate, replied:

    The Scottish National Party’s position and the position of the Scottish Government is as it has been for some time: EU membership. That is what we are pursuing.

    As part of the significant majority who voted Remain in the EUref, I want to retain my EU citizenship, and protect that of my kids. No more, no less.

  97. Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert J Sutherland re EU v EFTA and Customs Union
    more and more people are coming round to the conclusion that the latter is best suited to Scotland’s needs. With a hard Brexit looming EFTA maybe the only way we can continue to trade with rest of UK without tariffs. I may be wrong but my understanding is that if the UK is not in the Single Market we can have our own trade deal with them. I have asked several times on this forum if this could be clarified and nobody has said I’m wrong, however I would be obliged if you could advise if what I am saying is Mince.
    Secondly EFTA membership means that nobody can Veto us other than the four current EFTA States, Another thing the yoons can’t beat us with, then there is the fisheries.

    If I am correct in my assumption that we could do our own Trade deal with rUK , I am all for this option. However I would put full membership to a referendum in the first Parliament of an Indy Scotland.

  98. schrodingers cat says:

    There’s no reason that “little Scotlander” EU-haters will be any more willing to agree to EU-lite, for which they have to shell-out just as much as for full EU membership, while having none of the advantages, such as a seat at the top table influencing decisions. (Which is real sovereignity in action.)
    except that this norway type solution was favoured by farage etal during euref. and not all 38% of leavers are “little Scotlander” EU-haters, it is those who arent that this option is targeting.
    also, the damage caused by leaving is as yet to happen, when it does,logically, support for leaving the single market will diminish

    Equally, there’s no evidence that all those No-to-Yes converts like Jackie here (a warm welcome!) are going to be convinced by an inadequate half-way house.
    I dont want to leave the eu, but it will happen, eea is nothing more than redressing the immediate issue of access to the single market in the short term, a holding pen, I fully expect that one indy, the snp will move toward greater eu integration, but rejoining under article 49 could take time, securing single market access is a sensible option
    Your proposition for EEA seems to be based on nothing more than a presumption of some electoral advantage, not on any obvious principle. The calculation could just as easily go the other way, backfire by satisfying no-one.
    last poll by the rev was 27% eea and 48% eu membership, access to the single market is supported by both
    I believe the SG’s view is an admirably principled one. Fiona Hyslop, when challenged during last Tuesday’s debate, replied:

    The Scottish National Party’s position and the position of the Scottish Government is as it has been for some time: EU membership. That is what we are pursuing.

    the above senario doesnt contradict this position

    As part of the significant majority who voted Remain in the EUref, I want to retain my EU citizenship, and protect that of my kids. No more, no less.

    I voted remain too, but we are leaving, This is simply the first step back to eu membership which I hope after indyref2 will be as a full eu member c/w the euro.

    but, we need to win indyref2 first

  99. schrodingers cat says:

    Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert J Sutherland re EU v EFTA and Customs Union

    Lenny, we have aready an invitation to join efta, it is eea membership which assures access to the single market

  100. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 26 March, 2017 at 1:49 pm:

    “He likes the Scottish western isles but he looked really really shaky on Wesminster security, with the Ligger doing his head master about to thrash you thing.”

    Tell you a wee story about the security at Rosyth for the very first Nuclear Powered submarine – HMS Dreadnought.

    I was, at that time, working in, “Yard Services”, the dockyard department that did the dockyard maintenance and installations. It was dangerous and dirty work in all sorts of weather – but the pay was very, very good. I clung to that job as long as I could before being forced to moved into the Sonar, Radio & Radar Department and ultimately into the RADIAC. (But I digress).

    I usually got handed all kinds of new work that no one had ever done before. I thus ended up having to work out, design and install whatever special supplies and equipment in the electrics/security/electro-mechanical line for the new submarine being docked.

    Now not many in the dockyard knew that there are underground tunnels for all sorts of supplies like salt & fresh water, compressed air, high pressure steam and so on and these even go under the deep dry docks and inside the caissons that are the dry-dock gates. I had worked in most of them as well as on top of the big cranes and on top of most buildings.

    So the first week after the Dreadnought was docked for the first time I was working on a fault in a deep tunnel under the dock the boat was docked in. Meanwhile the Civilian Admiralty Police, Naval, Red Cap, Police, Dog & dog handlers, Marines and the SBS, (Special Boat Squadron), were involved in a big security exercise.

    This involved the SBS playing the part of enemy agents attempting to gain access to the Submarine in the dock.

    Just by chance I popped up out of a cable tunnel well outside the security fence and frightened the life out of a couple of SBS men who were attempting to evade capture by some MOD Police with Guard Dogs & dog handlers.

    One SBS guy, after telling me I’d frightened the shit out of him, said, “Shoosh! We’re supposed to finding a way into the compound.

    I said, “No problem I’ve just come from in there”. He said,”How did you get out without having to show a pass at the gate”? I said – “If you promise not to tell them how you discovered it, I’ll show you”.

    Far as I know, to this day no one yet knows how a group of SBS guys managed to evade the hoards of service and civilian security guards and gain access to the nuclear powered submarine.

    No one had thought to expect them to pop out behind the ones so intently watching the security fences from the inside looking out. A bit like the Panto, “He’s behind you”, sort of thing.

  101. Polscot says:

    EU / EFTA / Brexit

    The report mentioned in the Sunday Herald:

    would indicate that the existing EU members are comfortable with keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the EU club, pending any referendum on independence. Wee Ginger Dug (among others) has debunked several times the claimed Spanish opposition to Scotland being part of the EU club.

    If rUK can’t agree a deal on access to the single market, then, as pointed out by Derek Bateman, they stand to lose a lot more in trade and punishing price rises for all imported goods than Scotland would lose in trade with rUK.

  102. Vestas says:

    My 2p worth….

    Assuming a yes vote 3-6 months prior to Brexit then there’s three choices for the EU :

    1) You’re in the EU now. This doesn’t work & will cause damage to everyone really. Reasons being that we’d still be in the UK but also the EU without having negotiated/agreed anything with Westminster/Brussels. Nobody would have a clue WTH was going on;

    2) You’re out of the EU & have to reapply – although acceptance would be pretty much automatic as we’re 100% compliant with EU regs and have a more pro-EU population than Spain 😉 This is unlikely as its akin to shooting yourself in both feet – Scotland is PRO-EU by a large margin in all areas;

    3) You’re in the EEA automatically. We expect you to decide whether you wish to join the EU or remain in the EEA within three years of independence.

    I rather suspect 3) will be the EU’s preferred solution. I suspect that’s what ScotGov want too. This will be the “holding solution” for Scotland which people refer to.

    Instant EU membership while exiting rUK while they’re exiting the EU doesn’t sound like it’d fly for simple negotiating reasons.

    Immediate EEA membership preserves EU rights while the gordian knots are severed….

  103. Maria F says:

    Wonderful to see more and more people crossing the line into Yes. It is very encouraging to listen to their stories as it shows that since the beginning of indiref1 this process is indeed a continuous and it is not done yet. Not by a long shot.

    On other matters, I have been rather puzzled with the petty unionist wailing about the opportunity of a lifetime ‘lie’ which seems to resurface every now and again. Mind you, there is no lie on the comment, as sadly many people who voted in 2014 are no longer among us and therefore that was their chance of a lifetime to vote.

    It seems a perfectly innocuous comment and yet the unionists keep gnawing on that bone. I initially thought this was because they were using this to deflect attention from their porkies during indyref. I thought this to be hypocritical, as the size of deception in issues such as the vow, the Sewel convention or the No vote to remain in the EU make the comment insignificant by comparison.

    Suddenly it dawned on me like a ton of bricks. The first time that Salmond mentioned this was in 2013, a year before indyref. This is almost the point when the volume of porkies, project fear and deception went up a notch or two.

    I have now come to the conclusion that the Unionists might have interpreted the comment as the green light to go overboard and unleash project fear on steroids. They could say what they wanted (or so they thought) because indyref was going to be a one off, or at least for long enough so the voters would forget all their porkies and would be in a position to be receptive enough for another bout of project fear.

    The once in a lifetime “little lie” caught them totally unprepared so they shot themselves on the foot with their own porkies.

    Now I am beginning to wonder if that comment was not really an honest mistake/slip of the tongue but rather a stroke of genius. Support for independence in 2014 was in the low twenties and realistically, the chances of an indy win looked slim.

    Lifting the support from low 20s to 45 was a statement to the quality of the grassroots and Yes campaign, but somehow I think that nobody senior in the political sphere really believed that winning was going to be possible, not the first time round at least.

    What if the Yes campaign thought this too because they knew what they were up against (the enormous might of the British establishment with its mouthpiece the BBC)?

    What if they came up with something really simple (and cheap) but rather ingenious to win the vote on their own time?

    Mr Salmond resigned from being FM the day after the referendum. He did not need to do that, because the Yes campaign did not win but it managed to win over a 20% of the initial support for the Union. 2 years on and this support for independence has not died down, it is on the rise. That is not defeat. That is a massive success.

    Mr Salmond resigned anyway and I am now beginning to think the gesture was seen by the unionist might as his acceptance of defeat and the sign that the fight for independence was over.

    Cameron was the first one to fall for it when on the 19th September 2014 his mask fell off and announced EVEL and less than a week after he confessed the purring of the Queen. A week after indyref Scotland was being dragged into more Iraq airstrikes and almost a month exactly after the referendum the BBC announces the discovery of new oil fields in the North Sea. Imagine if that bombshell was released before indyref!

    With the threat of indyref away, the unionist ranks could relax and therefore allowed the porkies to be debunked one by one, like a slow drip….. until 2016 Holyrood election and that “irritating” clause in the SNP’s manifesto. Ahhh! that is when the penny dropped!

    Suddenly, we have unionists flapping like headless chickens, whining and wailing No referendum, petitions against another referendum, GERS figures to the fore, utterances of confederation by Kezia, Brown being already wheeled out to talk about federalism to the max, threats about the collapse of the EU, hard borders with England already being planned and of course the tories dragging their heels by denying another referendum. And the best is that the bill has not been passed yet, never mind there is still not a date for another referendum. You could can smell their fear and feel their panic.

    So, what if that comment was not a slip of the tongue but rather a masterstroke? That would make them in my eyes superb political strategists and as having indeed played a blinder. That would make me feel that we are indeed in the best team.

    Thinking about this has put a huge smile on my face and suddenly all the fear of losing again was substituted by renewed enthusiasm!

  104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I don’t believe that “more and more people are coming round to the conclusion that the latter [EEA rather than EFTA] is best suited to Scotland’s needs”, as Lenny postulates. It’s just an assertion by proponents of EEA based on a belief that it might just possibly be a winning strategy for ScotRef.

    You see, on a more general view, I believe that people are getting sick of politics by focus group or poll result. Blowing with the wind wherever it may lead. Ruth Davidson, for example, was most popular when she gave the impression that she was speaking from forcible conviction, agree with her or not. (And her own screeching U-turns over Brexit under the orders of her London masters and also on “mandate” for ScotRef have done her credibility much damage).

    Nicola, much to her credit as that of her predecessor, has taken a principled stand. She has made it crystal clear that she believes in an inclusive Scotland, which is certainly not going to appeal to that supposedly “Yes-Leaver” wummin on the BBC recently who claimed she will vote No “because of immigration”. Because of the EUref, such people have swallowed the BritNat anti-EU line and will be hard to get back, if they really ever were yessers in the first place (which may be doubted, at least for some).

    I don’t give a damn about focus groups (who gave us “cereal woman”) or polls supposedly showing this or that. If Nicola & Co. stick to their guns out of principle, as they show every sign of doing, I believe they can – and will – win the respect of most of those who have varying degrees of sympathy for the EU. On the simple proposition that it offers the least turbulence in very turbulent times, and we can always review the situation later as an independent country once we have found our feet.

    Furthermore, we can only expect to get the trading security of, and the positive backing from, the EU if they can see that full membership is our definite aim. They are going to risk nothing for us if we are not fully committed to them. Why should they?

    No s-cat, arguing for EEA membership as an end goal is NOT equivalent to aiming for full EU membership, as you seem to be suggesting. Fiona Hislop made that end goal quite clear. If your thinking was correct, and the intention is somehow to win ScotRef on a weaker platform, why would she (in your terms) undermine her own case?

    I most emphatically do not accept as a given, as you seem to do, the BritNat premise that Scotland will be “out of the EU regardless”, at least not if Nicola’s timing is followed. If things pan out differently, then we may have to re-evaluate strategies as circumstances permit, but why on earth give ground before then? All it does is give the Unionists ammunition – as people like you are certainly doing – that our aims are confused and even duplicitous.

  105. schrodingers cat says:

    Instant EU membership while exiting rUK while they’re exiting the EU doesn’t sound like it’d fly for simple negotiating reasons.

    the only instant EU membership would be if scotland became successor state, een then, no way scotland will inherit the uk opt outs and rebate

  106. Dan huil says:

    No agreement in Northern Ireland?

  107. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says:26 March, 2017 at 3:31 pm:

    “What’s important is neither EEA or EU membership. It’s what will gain us Independence. WE’ll know soon enough what the options are.”

    I’ve said it often enough but I’ll say it again. All the EU needs to do is obey existing EU rules, regs and laws and refuse to change them as the very essence of being the EU to suit England.

    One of which is that there is no legal way for the EU to take away any EU citizens EU citizenship against that citizens free will. If there were not such existing EU rules then EU citizenship would be worthless.

    So, all the EU needs to do is acknowledge the legal fact that their member state named, “The United Kingdom”, is exactly what the title itself describes it as – a bipartite union between two equally sovereign partner kingdoms – and they can claim that both partner kingdoms have equally valid claims upon the EU membership of the EU.

    Without doubt if the EU were NOT to acknowledge that fact they would not only be breaking the EU rule of protected citizenship but the EU rule on the human right of Self Determination of any identifiable distinct group of people.

    After all Scotland is not only a distinct country and a distinct kingdom but Scotland has a very clear and distinguishable culture that is shared by no other country, kingdom or state in the entire World.

    Not only that but Scotland, by a legal majority, voted to remain part of the EU and may, before Brexit, have given the Scottish government a mandate to split from the United Kingdom but most certainly given a mandate to remain in the EU.

    The point is that if the EU allows the English Kingdom part of the UK to drag the Scottish Kingdom part of the UK out of the EU against the majority will of the people of Scotland then the EU must first debate and agree to rewrite its own EU rules and thus destroy the very essence of being a union whose aim is to treat all members states as equal and all EU citizens as equals.

    What would EU membership be if the EU cannot protect its own citizens equal rights? What would the EU be if it could not protect its own member countries with their equal EU rights? What would it mean if the EU could not protect the human rights of distinct EU countries to claim their right to self determination as stated in existing EU Human Rights Acts?

    If they throw out their Scottish Citizens they destroy the whole purpose of the European Union of equality for all EU citizens and all EU countries.

    If retaining EU membership was good enough for one part of Germany that was NOT already part of an EU member state by reuniting all Germany as the member state it must be good enough for Scotland to retain EU membership if Scotland decides to end the United Kingdom.

  108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 18:18:

    Instant EU membership while exiting rUK while they’re exiting the EU doesn’t sound like it’d fly for simple negotiating reasons.

    Superficially, yes. But why does Nicola want to do it that way, then?

    Because it changes the nature of the negotiations, that’s why.

    Firstly, it pulls away a plank from the London Brexiteers, who suddenly can’t bank on Scotland’s precious resources.

    Secondly, and more importantly, it gives the EU27 side the opportunity to offer an open door to us. Not as the “continuing member”, of course, but via the “holding pen” option. Not via another organisation such as EEA, but as a continuing de-facto member until separate negotiations take place, after full independence, of the precise nature of our new de jure membership as an independent state with existing aquis.

    If the EU can do something far more special and difficult for the East Germans, they can certainly do something for us. Provided we give them good reason to.

    Which is not at all the same thing as “leaving” as the BritNats crudely and arrogantly mean it.

  109. schrodingers cat says:

    No s-cat, arguing for EEA membership as an end goal……..

    I’m arguing for EEA membership as a holding position


    I most emphatically do not accept as a given, as you seem to do, the BritNat premise that Scotland will be “out of the EU regardless”, at least not if Nicola’s timing is followed.

    treeza can leave anytime on the 1st of april if she wants, that power is hers. even if we vote yes in sept 18, it will be 18 months before we are indy, the uk will definately be out of the eu by then
    but why on earth give ground before then?
    All it does is give the Unionists ammunition – as people like you are certainly doing – that our aims are confused and even duplicitous.

    Not my fault, or problem, that you find this all too confusing, If this option is giving ground and duplicitous, perhaps you should direct your comments to Nicola since EEA was her compromise offer to treeza

  110. ScottieDog says:

    Lol i see the EU is lokkng for a transparent approach to Brexit talks.
    That’ll please the tories no end.

  111. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    schrodingers cat @ 18:18:

    Instant EU membership while exiting rUK while they’re exiting the EU doesn’t sound like it’d fly for simple negotiating reasons.

    I should have been clearer, that comment was from vestas, i was replying to.

    I dont really disagree with anything in your post, except that I doubt these options will become clear until we are indy.
    for the present, the unionists will continue to muddy the waters claiming all sorts of bollox about spain vetoing us etc, same as last time.

    My comments refer to campaign tactics to win indyref2

  112. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lenny Hartley says: 26 March, 2017 at 4:59 pm:

    “Robert J Sutherland re EU v EFTA and Customs Union
    more and more people are coming round to the conclusion that the latter is best suited to Scotland’s needs.”

    And your hard evidence for such a claim is …. What exactly?

    It seems to have escaped your notice that before Scotland, and/or Scottish/EU citizens can be allowed to have a choice of what other organisation the people of Scotland wish to join, then the people of Scotland, who are also presently citizens of the EU and the UK, must first of all be outside the EU and to have ended the United Kingdom and thus be looking in from outside any other organisation which may, or may not, be prepared to accept them as members.

  113. boris says:

    Holyrood needs to get involved in this before the matter gets out of control.

    This is a retitled repost from yesterday which failed to attract much attention. So if you have already read it stand down. If you haven’t read on

  114. Legerwood says:

    Mike cassidy @ 10.19

    That quote from the civil sycophant was truly boak inducing!

  115. schrodingers cat says:

    ScottieDog says:

    Lol i see the EU is looking for a transparent approach to Brexit talks. That’ll please the tories no end

    Daily updates? the fishermen can watch realtime as treeza sells them down the river

  116. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 18:35:

    I’m arguing for EEA membership as a holding position

    That’s fine, in which case let’s wait and see on that one. Maybe it will be needed in the eventuality, but let’s not lose sight of the overall objective nor fool ourselves into thinking that EEA is some kind of panacea to win Scotref.

    Not my fault, or problem, that you find this all too confusing, If this option is giving ground and duplicitous, perhaps you should direct your comments to Nicola since EEA was her compromise offer to treeza

    Tut, that was beneath you. It’s the general population’s impression that matters, not little old mine.

    What you keep refusing to recognise is that the offer of EEA was strictly conditional on Treeza accepting that offer, in return for Scotland remaining in the UK. Nothing more.

    So has that offer been accepted or not?

  117. schrodingers cat says:

    kinda agree with RP that eu membership would be better in the long run for scotland but securing access to the single market for scottish business is very very important. that can now only be done by winning indyref2, eea secures this and is an option with the greatest appeal to the greatest % of voters

    btw RP efta have already declared that an indy scotland would be welcome

    a commitment from the eu that on the day we vote yes we would get instant and automatic access to the EEA would be a very strong card for us during the indyref2 campaign

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @Vestas says: 26 March, 2017 at 5:41 pm:

    “Assuming a yes vote 3-6 months prior to Brexit then there’s three choices for the EU :
    1) You’re in the EU now. This doesn’t work & will cause damage to everyone really. Reasons being that we’d still be in the UK but also the EU without having negotiated/agreed anything with Westminster/Brussels.”

    That’s cobbler’s, Vestas.

    In the first place all that needs negotiated with the EU is what proportion of existing United Kingdom costs and rebates Scotland should continue to retain of their share of the United Kingdom membership. It is, after all, a bipartite United Kingdom and thus the existing EU membership is as much Scotland’s as England’s.

    The United Kingdom is not legally actually as Westminster claims it to be while treating it as quite a different set-up.

    The proof is overwhelming that what is legally a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms as its title says it is, gets run by Westminster as if Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and her only partner kingdom is relegated to the status of the other two legal dominions of England that are Wales & N. Ireland.

    Just in case you doubt that statement those two, “Dominions”, are actually mentioned as such in the preamble to the Treaty of Union as recorded in the records of both the Kingdoms that the treaty united.

    As to what needs negotiated with, “The United Kingdom”, that will be zilsh because if Scotland leaves there is no more United Kingdom – how can there be a remaining United Kingdom that had only two partners if one partner leaves?

    You have been listening too much to Westminster propaganda.

  119. Vestas says:

    Frankly a situation where an independent Scotland was in the EEA and had some time to decide whether it wanted full EU membership or not would be ideal.

    It puts us in a holding mode where we’d probably pay a flat fee for EEA membership AND once the chaos has died down in a position to take EU membership.

    I can’t see any other sane way to do it if E&W/NI are leaving the EU/EEA and Scotland is leaving the UK around the same time.

    So EEA to preserve existing EU rights for post-indy & then take some time to think after the Brexit/indy2 stuff seems the likely route.

    I’m not a tremendous fan of the EU (Eurofin stuff vs Italy/Greece was appalling) but the single market (EEA & above) is the only game in town.

    So auto-EEA and an invite for the EU should we choose within 3 years is my bet for post-indy.

  120. Reluctant Nationalalist says:

    Robert Sutherland, your enthusiasm for the EU is certainly feverish. But Nicola is not the party alone, and although some of the SNP will share her apparent desires, there are those who take a far less dictatorial stance on the subject.

    Alex Neil of the SNP had this to say recently:

    “The final issue that this parliament should consider is separation of the issue of independence from the issue of whether an independent Scotland should apply for EU membership. A yes vote in an independence referendum cannot be interpreted as a dual mandate for independence and for an independent Scotland to join the EU. I belive that the two issues must be decoupled, and that the explicit approval of the Scottish people must be sought before Scotland applies to rejoin the EU as an independent state…

    …it is their choice, – it is their decision…

    …When it comes to a referendum on EU membership I find myself in a position in which I find it no more appetising for Scotland to be ruled by Mr Juncker than for it to be ruled by Mrs May. In my view, austerity from London and austerity from Brussels are equally damaging to not just Scotland but the rest of the UK and, indeed, the rest of Europe.”


    Not that I agree with the idea of Juncker somehow ‘ruling’ us, but still, glad for Alex’s position. I can utterly understand you position and desires, but if you could try to mask your contempt for those many people who don’t particularly like imposed austerity or the large influx of cheap labour, that would be amazing.


  121. Legerwood says:

    Since Europe seems to be the subject under discussion just now I thought I would draw your attention to a speech by Estefan Gonzales Pons, a member of the European Parliament.

    I don’t have a link to the speech but this is part of it and a potential reminder of what the EU is about:

    “”“Europe is not a market, it is the will to live together. Leaving Europe is not leaving a market, it is leaving shared dreams. We can have a common market, but if we do not have common dreams, we have nothing. Europe is the peace that came after the disaster of war. Europe is the pardon between French and Germans. Europe is the return to freedom of Greece, Spain and Portugal. Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe is the end of communism. Europe is the welfare state, it is democracy,””” Esteban González Pons on the 60th anniversary of the Treaties of Rome.#EU60

  122. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Just testing to see if I’ve done a naughty to the word filter.

  123. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Vestas @ 19:12:

    Frankly a situation where an independent Scotland was in the EEA and had some time to decide whether it wanted full EU membership or not would be ideal.

    See, this just gives the game away. It’s exactly the attitude with which I fundamentally disagree. It has no principle behind it, except for a minority, generally on the extreme right and left who have their own reasons. It wasn’t supported by the EURef result, which was clear as daylight, and should be respected. What the anti-EU brigade couldn’t get via democratic means they are now attempting to get via a latterday appeal for some presumed – but quite unproven – advantage in ScotRef.

    The fallacy in aiming for the least-common denominator option is that instead of appealing to everyone, it could just as easily appeal to no-one.

    The principled (and also economically most prudent) position is to retain full EU membership until Scotland has full sovereignity and has been properly established. Then if people do have a genuine wish to review the situation re the EU they would be perfectly entitled to do so, and take their democratic chances accordingly. Simples!

  124. Epiphyta says:

    pipinghot @ 10.39:

    O/T and anecdata, so worth what you’ve paid for it: one of the spouse’s direct reports has sold up, packed up the family and moved to Canada. His wife is a Canadian national and was offered a fantastic job, but they were looking at leaving regardless.

  125. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Robert Sutherland, your enthusiasm for the EU is certainly feverish. But Nicola is not the party alone, and although some of the SNP will share her apparent desires, there are those who take a far less dictatorial stance on the subject.

    Alex Neil of the SNP had just this to say recently:

    “The final issue that this parliament should consider is separation of the issue of independence from the issue of whether an independent Scotland should apply for EU membership. A yes vote in an independence referendum cannot be interpreted as a dual mandate for independence and for an independent Scotland to join the EU. I belive that the two issues must be decoupled, and that the explicit approval of the Scottish people must be sought before Scotland applies to rejoin the EU as an independent state…

    …it is their choice, – it is their decision…

    …When it comes to a referendum on EU membership I find myself in a position in which I find it no more appetising for Scotland to be ruled by Mr Juncker than for it to be ruled by Mrs May. In my view, austerity from London and austerity from Brussels are equally damaging to not just Scotland but the rest of the UK and, indeed, the rest of Europe.”


    Not that I agree with the idea of Juncker somehow ‘ruling’ us, but still, glad for Alex’s position. I can utterly understand you position and desires, but if you could try to mask your contempt for those many people who don’t particularly like imposed austerity or the large influx of cheap labour, that would be amazing.


  126. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat
    I’m arguing for EEA membership as a holding position

    That’s fine, in which case let’s wait and see on that one. Maybe it will be needed in the eventuality,

    glad you’re coming round to my way of thinking 🙂


    but let’s not lose sight of the overall objective

    I’m not, if we dont win our independence, we are screwed


    nor fool ourselves into thinking that EEA is some kind of panacea to win Scotref
    I never thought it was, just the best option regarding the eu for the Scotlands Future2 white paper. lots of other important issues eg currency, trident etc.

  127. Fireproofjim says:

    Just announced on the Financial Times website.
    Hurricane energy have discovered “the biggest oilfield this century.”
    The Lincoln/Halifax field, west of Shetland has an oil column of at least one kilometre depth and is about thirty miles long and five miles wide.
    Billions of barrels and could be another Brent field.
    Production will probably take a couple of years to get started. Just nice time for an independent Scotland to reap the benefits. Remember the Brent field has been producing for forty years and contributed many billions of pounds to the UK economy.
    Tell this to the those who think we are too poor. Any country would be eternally grateful to have such natural assets.

  128. North chiel says:

    Not entirely sure that the politics going forward will ” pan out” as we may suppose.
    Given that the Tory ruling junta is fairly relaxed as regards leaving the EU ( hard Brexit as it stands) and absolutely terrified as regards the possibility of an Independent Scotland ( with the catastrophic loss of Scottish assets to the London treasury).over the forthcoming 1-2 years , if the polls slowly shift towards the Independence option, as the economic woes after Brexit become apparent, quite possibly the Westminster Junta might change their spots ( again). If May appears to be losing Scotland and the EU negotiators play “hardball”, then the fabled ” men in grey suits ” could appear.
    May would be gone, a ” compromise candidate” would be ” installed”, his mission to reach a deal with both the EU and Scotland. ( soft Brexit? ) . The possible question is then what would our FM ” settle for” ? Or would she say ” too late” ?

  129. yesindyref2 says:

    The EU Parliament Commission has indicated that it sees no reason why both Scotland and Northern Ireland can’t stay in the EU after Brexit, until our referendums – and obviously then our actual Independence. NI is different – it could be merging with an existing member, similar to East Germany with West Germany.

    But for us between the Ref and full accession to the EU in our own right, there would be negotiations, and one of these would clearly be the retention of a common trading area with our neighbour England (and Wales).

    Seems to be very likely the EU, having shown it’s flexible over the Brexit and continuing temporary and transitional membership for Scotland, would also be flexible on this. It might, erll would, need a more formal way of recording transactions to prevent back-door rUK trading with the EU on single market terms.

    There is a quite standard way of doing this. It’s not in the EU Treaties, these apply to all states. But the Treaties also refer to and include the Protocols, such as there are for Denmark, the UK, and most if not all states.

    So all that’s needed is for Protocol 777 for Scotland saying that the EU tariff area does not apply to Scotland trading with the rest of the UK, and job done.

    Treaties are quite hard to change, Protocols are a doddle to set up. That’s the way I think it could be done, to take account of our large volume of trade from and to the rUK.

    But the key thing is that it seems very likely we can STAY in the EU – and being in the EU is the status quo, so no democratic change, no need to vote on it at the time. Like the UK did in 1975, Scotland could then in two or three years have a referendum on EU membership – Stay / Leave.

  130. Liam says:

    the first gay leader of a modern political party in our country –

    Cough… Ted Heath… cough… Jeremy Thorpe… cough

  131. schrodingers cat says:

    RP, if we vote yes, the uk ceases to exist

    wouldnt that also include any terms of membership we now hold?

    an indy scotland will not inherit the uk opt outs e’en if it is considered the successor state.

    the eu was already complaining about the uk rebate before the euref, indeed, while the eu accepts different degrees of eu integration, it is its policy to no longer support individual bespoke membership. so the swiss who are only efta members with o’er 100 trade deals are being pressed to get in line with the other efta members and join the EEA.

    the result is, that scotland will not inherit or negotiate a unique deal with the eu once indy, they will be offered full membership with the euro or full membership without the euro. Nicola doesnt have a mandate to accept either of them, another euref is inevitable once indy

    she does have a mandate to accept efta/eea membership, this is because the 62% who voted remain did so to ensure free movement of people and access to the single market, it is explicite in the result

    what is most galling of all is that the uk had the best deal of all countries in the eu, the fact the other 27 were complaining about it is proof enough of this

    but that status quo, that agreement that 62% of us voted for, is now gone, even if the uk were to cancel brexit right now, there is no chance the eu would agree to it, uk would be offered swedish type membership. so will scotland

  132. K.A.Mylchreest says:

    @ Robert J. Sutherland

    The point to emphasise I think is that full EU membership IS the status quo for the time being, so not so much a leap in the dark as simply “business as usual”, but with Scotland getting its feet under the top table at long last. Then give it two or three years to bed in before assessing the pros and cons.

    More generally …

    I wonder if TM is still a covert ‘remainer’, with in her eyes a cunning plan — LOL! (we all know what happens to them). That is to go for a Brexit so hard as to be quite unacceptable to all but the most fanatical leavers. Only to then, at the eleventh hour, turn round as say, “Sorry chaps, it just won’t fly, let’s call the whole thing off”. Risky but what else could she do?

    But she never thought about Scotland, did she? Scotland is the fly in her ointment. Because as long as May is playing up to the Brexiteers, Scotland is on its way out of the UK. And when we go, May will be saddled with the blame. All she can hope for is to delay IndyRefII until after Brexit has ground to a halt. Hence her “the time is not right” statement.

    Either way, Scotland has a window of opportunity to both gain indy AND stay in the EU, provided the referendum takes place before Brexit is either concluded or abandoned. Fortunately if Nicola and the gang are on form they’ll wrong-foot London sufficiently well to achieve just that 🙂

  133. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ fireproofjim

    Great news about the oil, predicted something like this might happen soon. There’ll be more too that the company Geologists won’t be 100% on yet.

  134. schrodingers cat says:

    dads says
    But the key thing is that it seems very likely we can STAY in the EU – and being in the EU is the status quo, so no democratic change,


    i agree with everything else in your post except this.
    it conflates the uk, sweden and france’s eu membership types, they are not all the same
    ie, would you argue that the 62% who voted remain gave nicola the mandate to agree to either a swedish or french type eu membership?

  135. Lochside says:

    Fireproofjim says:
    26 March, 2017 at 7:44 pm
    Just announced on the Financial Times website.
    Hurricane energy have discovered “the biggest oilfield this century.”
    The Lincoln/Halifax field, west of Shetland has an oil column of at least one kilometre depth and is about thirty miles long and five miles wide.’

    Great news…interesting name for an oil field off a Scottish territory…wonder if IT points to a future (DESPERATE) claim by the RUK?

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, they’re not the same, and most if not all members have protocols that make them different – tailored membership. It’s something the EU can’t really do anything about, unless it goes full Barroso with political unity – which seems to me to be disappearing into the distance, thank goodness.

    Sturgeon’s mandate is to stay in the EU though, not just the EEA. The compromise was to stay as part of the UK, and that’s almost disappared, with Sturgeon putting on the pressure for May to say yea or nay definitiely.

    Whatever the likes of ex-ministers like Neil might say, the referendum mandate is for continued EU membership. But that doesn’t stop Sturgeon being able to put in enough fudges to keep them happy – and the EU. It’s why she earns the big bucks!

    I can see ways she can do that but 1). I wouldn’t want to steal her thunder and 2). Regrettably I don’t earn the big bucks 🙂

  137. Breeks says:

    Patience gents.

    There’s no need to second guess the Scottish – EU position, because once Article 50 has been triggered, it seems likely we will know it very soon, and the actual deal might even be on the table.

    Scotland could however find itself in a catch 22 situation; unable to finalise a deal with EU arrangements pending the result of the ScotRef (and hopefully sovereign independence), yet unable to call the ScotRef before knowing what the Brexit deal is going to be for the UK.

    It remains to be seen whether ScotRef is started by a bad Brexit deal for the UK, or a good Membership deal on offer to a sovereign Scotland.

    I have a curious picture in my head, the European delegation left talking with the Scottish delegation after the English delegation has stormed out in huff, with no deal being possible because Scotland still cannot make a sovereign decision to the satisfaction of the EU delegation.

    I see problems ahead, because how can Theresa May make any deal with the EU until she knows whether Scotland is or is not part of the UK, or to be more correct, whether the UK has ceased to exist?

    Be sure you have plenty popcorn for next week folks…. This could get pretty intense.

  138. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    K.A.Mylchreest @ 20:04,

    Yes, I fully agree, K.A. – staying in the EU is the “status quo” option, and that will surely have a lot of traction with people otherwise facing a great deal of uncertainty, whichever way forward.

    It makes a big change from 2014, when staying in the UK was the presumed “safe” status-quo option that a lot of people reluctantly settled for. Now thanks to these great videos from Phantom Power, everyone can observe there is a sea-change underfoot. Remaining in the EU is the safer option for many.

    Like you, though, I sometimes wonder of Theresa has deliberately given the Brexiteers plenty of rope, and maybe she is hoping that when the real facts of life post-EU become staringly obvious when negotiations open, she has a “Plan B”: to hang them with it.

    And blame us for it into the bargain!

  139. schrodingers cat says:

    yesindyref2 says
    Regrettably I don’t earn the big bucks 🙂

    sure……i believe you dads, those film star wages you are on must really get you down 🙂

  140. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ K.A Mylchreest

    What’s the general consensus in Cornwall about brexit?

  141. Fireproofjim says:

    Nothing sinister about the names of Hurricane Energy’s oilfields.
    Like the company they are all named after aircraft.
    Their other fields in the area are Lincoln, Typhoon and Whirlwind.

  142. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t care what we’re IN, as long as we’re OUT of the UK
    With everybody else Scotland gets a choice, with the UK we get fake promises lies and still end up with a fight and lose

    Scotland would have a fairer shake negotiating with Auld Nick than the English

    Has it ever been any different?

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    Clooney is just my stand in, he is a little more photogenic than I am I guess. Not much in it right enough …

  144. geeo says:

    This was my response to an article on Facebook about the Daily Mail apparently taking umbrage at Scottish Women getting more access to IVF treatments.

    Yes-NHS in Scotland basically explained that this was an example of how an Indy Scotland can take a DIFFERENT path after Independence.

    “England really puzzles me.

    The poor and working poor are utterly shafted by the tories every time, but i do not believe for a second that those doing well out of Tory governments are more numerous than those shafted by them.

    This is where the abject failure of the Labour Party to show any form of solidarity with the people is brutally exposed.

    When millions of voters would rather, blindly hope that the Tories become a compassionate party for all, than vote labour, it is a terrible indictment of the omnishambles that the current labour party has become.

    When a vote for Labour in England is seen as a ‘wasted vote’, you are in really troubled waters politically.

    It would appear that, as it was in 1997, the ONLY chance of a labour government is when the good people of England become thoroughly sick of the Tories.

    The last time, it took 18 years of horrendous tory rule to ‘break’ English voters.

    The sad thing is, this time it looks like it is going to be a lot longer (at least 2030 imo if things stay as they are constitutionally) before people trust labour to govern again.

    There is of course, a possible twist in the tail of a Scottish Yes vote.

    If, as expected, the ruk struggles without the current, vast revenue streams from Scotland, then ironically, Scottish Independence may actually SPEED UP a future labour government in ruk, if there is an electoral backlash against the tories as things go badly wrong, fiscally.

    Of course, none of the above matters to The Labour Party, after all, they did declare that they would rather have a Tory government than a labour one, with the help of the SNP..!

    A cynic may suggest that Labour currently DO NOT WANT to be in power at this time, after all, they have certainly ensured they have NO CHANCE of power any time soon, by their recent behaviour.

    The English people who have no truck with the hateful tory policies have my deepest sympathy, they have nobody to represent them right now.

    At least we have the SNP, and more crucially, an escape route out of Austerity Uk.

  145. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ yesindyref2: “…the referendum mandate is for continued EU membership.”

    If you could link me to where the SNP have put that exact aim in writing, rather than, say, a mandate for the Scottish people to not be taken out of the EU due to English votes (meaning possibly another referendum after Independence), that would make things a bit clearer. Thanks!

  146. Ken500 says:

    It is better to stay fully in the EU if possible. Scotland would get £Billions in renewable Grants and investment from the ECB. Shared Defence costs – far cheaper. Trident would go. Saving £1Billion a year. Scotland already gets Grants for fishing and farming CAP payments. Scotland would get even more EU funding for fishing and farming. Needs the migrant workers. Needs the Oil & Gas workers. Scotland needs more workers to build up the economy.

    The EU totally supports and encourages renewable energy. Scotland is the best place in the world for renewables. It would qualify for investing funding from ECB and EU Grants. They already invest £Billions in Scotland but would invest £Billions more as full members. The EU would also invest in CCS. The NS is the best place for it in Scottish waters. Decommission is completely tax free. Plans are already being down for decommissioning centre in Sfotland. EU Grants and funding are already being invested in it.

    Hinkley Point, HS2, and Heathrow are illegal under EU Laws – unfair subsidy, £Billions of borrowed Chinese money and too dangerous mitigation. So is Trident dumped in Scotland witout permission to appease McMillian in the 1960’s. The US authorities did not want it here.

    The Tories ruined the the Oil sector (deliberately) or with ignorance and incompetent with excessive taxes. Too high taxes (60% to 80%) when prices had fallen 75%. Tax regime should related to price. Or the industry hasn’t go enough revenues to invest and produce. The tax rate is 40% from Jan 2016.

  147. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Ken500

    Investment (and loans) from the ECB come with caveats, some being cutting funds to the public sector.
    The saving on Trident is tiny in the scheme of things.
    We already support renewable energy.
    More migrant workers help keep wages low and indigenous unemployment higher.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I’ll accept us in or out of the EU, but these are some general points that came to mind when reading your post.


  148. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Reluctant Nationalist @ 20:53:

    If you could link me to where the SNP have put that exact aim in writing…

    You obviously didn’t read one of my earlier postings very well, but Fiona Hyslop made their position transparently clear in last Tuesday’s Holyrood debate.

    For chapter-and-verse on that, I refer you to the official record:

    You can also try the 2016 SNP manifesto, page 41. That document is to be found at:

    (The policy itself though is hardly new; one of the original authors I believe was one J. Sillars.)

    Hope that helps clarify the (non-)mystery.

  149. Ken500 says:

    People in London S/E always do well because the UK Gov always overfunds it. There is always less unemployment there. Lower unemployment rates because of all the extra funding. The North of England gets less There is a band of Tory voters right across the Midlands. If Scotland was Independent and better off, so would the NE of England. Britain would be more equal and fair. The wealth distributed more equally. The North South divide.

    It used to be biggest investment was in London S/E than it gradually petered up right up to the far north of Scotland. Getting poorer. Devolution has changed that. Now because Scotland is better run by the,SNP/Scottish Gov. Scotland is doing far better economically. It would do even better still is it was Independent. Without Westminster interference and not suitable economic policies.

    The English vote Tory because they will not vote Labour because of illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Corbyn is useless. Along with the rest. The Tories tell lies and cheat to get elected. They committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies. Break electoral promise and mandates. People get suckered in by them. Voters vote Parties out. Not in. They don’t like any of them and vote just to get the present incumbents out.

  150. Capella says:

    The SNP website has a policy base where they spell out policy objectives such as Europe and international affairs.

  151. Beflox says:

    I’ll be honest, I’m starting to find these “Journey to Yes” videos a little nauseating.

    The insight into their decision making is undoubtedly fascinating to some, but we wouldn’t be in the situation we are right now if any of these people had been as clear thinking 3 years ago as they apparently are now. Oh you’ve just come to the conclusion that Westminster and the Tories don’t give a shit about Scotland? Round of applause.

    It’s hard not to watch and be reminded of Rev Stu’s comment the day after the 2014 referendum, which I may be misquoting but I believe it was something along the lines of “to all of you who voted No, fuck you, forever.”

  152. gus1940 says:

    Surely it is high time that the matter of the 1975 Common Market Referendum was clarified.

    There was NEVER a referendum on entry – we were taken into the EC by the Heath Government in 1973 without a referendum but on a manifesto committmentto join. It had been Tory policy since the days of Macmillan when membership application was twice vetoed by deGaulle.

    The 1975 Referendum was on the same basis as last year’s one on whether or not to leave The EC of which we were already members.

  153. Chick McGregor says:

    Well done Scotland. Maybe there should be a media blackout on all our games.

  154. schrodingers cat says:

    scotland score the winner in 89 min

    who would have thunk it

    england at hampden next

    who would have thunk it 🙂

  155. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ R Sutherland

    Thank you for posting it in the first place, Robert; very valuable bit of info. Maybe I didn’t read it well enough.

    Anywhoo, the manifesto was written for 2016; before brexit and before another independence referendum was announced, but you know what…I’ll concede that there’s enough commitment in writing and words from Hyslop to the effect of what yesindyref2 wrote. Otherwise I’d just be debating the semantics of the word ‘continued’ what with Scotland not technically being a current member, as it’s the UK – but that’s beneath even my shitty standards.

    However, I don’t think there’s any evidence that ‘commitment’ to, or ‘pursuit’ of this goal, is mutually exclusive to letting Scots decide on the matter separately after independence. But anyway, what will be will be, and I’ll accept it either way.

  156. Effijy says:

    Now, now, you lot, you are forgetting the Westminster truth about that MASSIVE oil fields discovered in the Extra Regio Area,

    I think that you will find that the oil is that type that runs out. You know, just like the other North Sea Fields that were to have ran out in the 1970’s, 80’s, 90’s, 00’s, Teens’, and of course they will run out in the 20’s too.

    Westminster have officially announce oil revenue to be a minus factor, whenever the word Scotland appears.

    I think that you lot might be disappointed to find that drilling will not be allowed by Westminster, as it is too close to the subs based in Coulport, just a few hundred miles, a skip and a hop away.

    The Tories of course can impose a 99% tax on any company wishing to Drill in this area, well at least until they try to con Scotland out of independence again, and then they can also claim that the 6,000 miles of Scottish Maritime waters stolen by Westminster was a misprint, and it should have read 60,000 square miles of Scottish waters.

    The English Maritime Border with Scotland is now just 12 miles short of Iceland.

    GRFUY Westminster!

  157. Ken500 says:

    Investment from the ECB and investment grants in renewables do not come with caveats. There are tidal,and offshore turbines going up all over the place. If Scotland was Independent it could tax it and or sell it. Like Oil & Gas. Instead of it going on the grid. Scotland having to pay to put it on the grid. EU investment/grants is involved in a new fuel line with Norway.

    Without EU workers the Scottish economy would collapse. EU workers do not keep wages down, EU workers illegally are paid lower wages and exploited doing jobs the indegious workers will not do if there is alternative employment. The EU workers can be exploited. There is a legal average wage but sometimes EU workers are underpaid. Illegally.

    Employment often depends on skills. More skills. More education more skills and training. There should be more additional training. More investment in additions needs training would get more people into work with the right support. The EU workers.often come for a season. The agriculture workers come at harvest time and then go home again. Oil workers go on the rigs and then go home at offshore times.

    Migrant workers work in the fishing or tourist season – summer time and then return home in the winter. Often Scottish workers can’t do that because they have families etc. Or are residential in another part of the country. EU workers work in the highlands for the summer season. In areas where it is difficuit to get seasonal staff and live in. People in Scotland with family commitments or responsibility often can’t do that.

    Scottish workers work in the EU. They teach English, work in the Oil & Gas sector or finance and banking etc. Many people from Scotland live, work and retire to the EU. Set up businesses as well. In the Costas, France, Germany etc.

    It. Scotland was Independent there would be high employment. The Tories ruined the Oil sector with illegally high taxes. It affected 120,000 workers. If they were in employment. Scotland would have really low unemployment.

    Some people can’t work because of sickness or caring responsibility. Or are changing jobs. Some take early retirement but are self supporting. Have a private pension. Pensioners can still be taxed. They can still be register as unemployed. They sign in to ensure they receive their OA pension at the right time.

  158. Liam at 7.56
    Cough – somebody much closer to home

  159. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Still playing catch-up so I may be repeating someone, somewhere.

    I just don’t understand some folk going on about EFTA/EEA/CU. The fact of the matter is that we are already fully paid up members of the top level EU membership, albeit through our UK marriage. We are in and enjoy all the advantages.

    I want an independent Scotland to sit at the table with the other 27 members and be able to debate, decide and VOTE on any resolutions and not just pay up and have to accept any decisions that the top members decide with no say in the matter.

    NS knows that Brexit (hard probably) is coming and her whole EU strategy is designed to somehow keep Scotland in the EU. IMHO, EFTA/EEA/CU is just part of the tactics used to reach that target.

  160. ian m says:

    The Scottish Governments white paper on moving forward had better be all inclusive NO unknowns or at least sound logic to defend their points.
    That white paper is going to be rubbished from start to finish and twice on Sundays.
    How much can we charge England for water, electricity, and oil
    We must be off to a good start with those 3 items alone
    On the Scotland England trade how much of England’s fictitious trading number is food?

  161. Ken500 says:

    People voted on joining with Europe. There was a vote about it. De Gaulle vetoed UK membership for years, wouldn’t let the UK in. Some folk thought the UK should have joined with France etc even sooner after 11WW. Before De Gaulle vetoed.

  162. Hamish100 says:

    Dave McEwan Hill


    How close?

  163. Ken500 says:

    Nicola is pitting the other option – single market/EEA, to appease. In case for any reason Scotland can’t have full membership immediately. To negotiate Scotland’s way back in. If for any reason there is a hold up. Scotland already meet the right criteria but something might be tweeted or agreed by negotiation. .

  164. Ian Brotherhood says:

    If 400+ people go to BBC PQ to protest about bias, but no-one reports it, did it actually happen?

    Well done to Ronnie A, Bruno, Jock Scott, and abody else who attended today.

  165. ian m says:

    An Indy Scotland will produce an employment Boom for Scotland

    Here is game at the end of your posts please include an area that will see an increase in Scottish jobs

    HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has announced job losses of up to 2500 in Scotland

  166. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Thank you, Ken500. That was a good post. However, wages are kept lower by ensuring the legal minimums are just above what the going rates are in poorer countries, not rising enough to take into account the high cost of living here – I wasn’t thinking of the illegal pay! I don’t agree that the Scottish economy would collapse; but that’s really just my opinion (educated somewhat by my time in industry recruitment). Of course, a return to the days of school-leavers or students performing the seasonal work, for example, would be somewhat of a culture shift, to say the least.

    I think I’d like to have a look at the small print on that ECB investment! But hey, if you’re sure, I’ll back down on that one.

    You know, I think I’m going to do some deep reading on the subject of our economy depending on migrant workers – get the real numbers, look into what businesses are essential and how much their survival is pinned on it. Be good for me to do something useful.

  167. Breeks says:

    Steady there Beflox. These are the people we need to be on our side to win.

    Yes, some should have been paying closer attention in 2014, but others might well still be No voters but for recognising Brexit as a material difference which changes everything. We can’t turn back the clock, and what is done is behind us.

    Look for the positives: these No voters and undecided folks quite possibly move in circles where there are other No voters who close their eyes and ears to the YES narrative. It puts these folks in a much better place to interact with other No voters, and explain their change of heart. Seeing their ranks being thinned by former No voters moving to Yes is precisely the thing we want to encourage.

    There vast numbers of Scots blinkered by the BBC, and it’s a bit like the Matrix movie. Take the plug out your neck, and once you see “Dear old Institution Auntie BBC” is actually nothing but a rampant BritNat propaganda channel, there’s no “unseeing” it. But a lot of people need help, not judgement or rebuke, to see the BBC for what it is.

    And don’t forget too, these folks are now YES voters, and are probably twice as annoyed with themselves for voting No the first time.

    Don’t be angry with the people. If you must be angry, just remember who it is filling their heads with Unionist propaganda, that blasted TV in their living rooms.

  168. Great stuff

  169. Hamish100 at 10.21

    Not all that close.

  170. schrodingers cat says:

    efta/eea membership is a known formula, an off the peg type deal, it really only requires a nod and it is done. in this sense it is a binary option, in or out

    negotiating eu membership for an indy scotland from the wreckage of whats left of the uk’s membership could take time, time that some businesses who have lost access to the SM might not have. bear in mind, that whatever path an indy scotland takes, it will happen while we are negotiating our exit from the uk with WM

  171. Flower of Scotland says:

    Was at the BBC demo. Great day and enjoyed the YES bikers entrance. Those working in Pacific Quay couldn’t ignore that roar!

    Well done Ronnie, Yew choob and Cactus and met up with Ruby! All Wingers!

  172. caz-m says:

    Re BBC Scotland protest rally:

    Very enjoyable sunny day out in Govan today. Perfect Rally to get IndyRef2 up and running.

    Ronnie and the rest of the gang put on a great wee show and it was good to meet up with fellow Wingers including Mr Brotherhood.

    Looking forward to future YES rallies.

  173. heedtracker says:

    Graun excited about tomorrow’s big day, last hurrah for Mayhem in her greater England region of Scotland,

    Sunday 26 March 2017 22.30 BST

    Article 50
    Theresa May to meet Nicola Sturgeon in week she triggers article 50
    Prime minister to say four nations of the UK are ‘unstoppable force’ during tour ahead of formally commencing EU withdrawal process”

    If the EU and Scottish democracy has shown us anything, psychopath toryboy world can be defeated. Psycho tories have managed to get England out of Europe but can they do the same Scotland?

  174. heedtracker says:

    Graun not giving our FM much of a say in their Mayhem on tour thing at all.

    “Sturgeon believes May’s Brexit negotiating stance is so hostile to Scotland’s interests that she has called for a second independence referendum and has publicly demanded permission from Westminster to schedule a vote before the Brexit process is completed.”

    Don’t do it Nicola, I command you not do it, you cant make it alone, we will crush you, why risk it, our precious precious union of four nations, two of which are not, but it sounds good, makes them all think they’re something…

  175. Breastplate says:

    Heedtracker, you’re bang on the money about psycho Tories ( UKIP) managing England out the Eu door and now trying to do the same to Scotland.
    People here in Scotland should be made well aware of who they are helping when denying themselves independence.

  176. G4jeepers says:

    I look forward to the Scotland/England match being only available on the fucking radio. Fairs fair eh?

  177. Liz Rannoch says:

    See talks in N Ireland have collapsed. Possibility of 3rd vote in 6 months?

    tRuthless & co keep going on and on about how ‘tired’ and ‘weary’ and ‘sick’ and ‘fed up’ of voting the Scots are – what? – 1 each in 2014/15, 2 in 2016 and 1 this year and another one in a year and half?

    Yes/SNP need to push this, are we wimps? do we not have the strength for that? Also Swiss – more than double that (13) in ONE year! The Yoons are getting places wi’ this one, I’ve heard 2 folk in the past 2 days saying similar.

    Right – to bed, had to get my rant out before I go, sorry.

  178. heedtracker says:

    Breastplate says:
    26 March, 2017 at 11:28 pm

    Tories are psychopaths. They have the greatest PR gimps in the world, BBC all the way down to likes of neo fascist Voice of The North Press and Journal, here in their yew kay of tory psycho rule.

    Its why Mayhem was first to kiss the Trump ring, out of the whole planet’s nation state heads, there they were, psychopaths of a feather, Mayhem and Trump, with neo fascist psychos like Fuhrage, BoJo and Gove, all hiding behind a curtain.

  179. Robert Peffers says:

    @Reluctant Nationalist says: 26 March, 2017 at 7:31 pm:

    “Robert Sutherland, your enthusiasm for the EU is certainly feverish. But Nicola is not the party alone, and although some of the SNP will share her apparent desires, there are those who take a far less dictatorial stance on the subject.”

    What part of Scots are founder member citizens of the EU as they have been in it from the day it began and the EU has no rules, laws or other legal mechanisms to expel an EU citizen or an EU country against their will. is it that you don’t understand, Reluctant Nationalist?

    To do so the EU parliament would have to go through the normal process of a member state proposing a motion for a change in the EU rules, laws or legal process’. This would have to be seconded and could also have amendments proposed and seconded or objections to oppose the proposal.

    Then it would have to be debated and voted upon and every member state has a veto.

    There is only one legal way to get out of the EU as is seen in the case of the UK’s exit. The UK was told in no uncertain terms that nothing would be done or discussed until a formal, Article 50, request was submitted. The same applies if an individual citizen wants to end their citizenship.

    If May also imagines that the EU Parliament will instantly begin negotiations she will probably be in for a surprise for in the EU parliament’s eyes the UK exit request is small beer. I time and place will have to be found in the EUs bust schedule of far more important matters and the Parliament will have to consider the Article 50 request.

    Only then will the process begin of negotiations. Bear in mind too that Scotland has friends in the parliament who may wish to throw a few spanners into the works.

    The fact is that the United Kingdom is indeed formally the member state but the member state is neither a single country nor is it a single state. It is exactly what its title describes it as A United Kingdom with two equally sovereign partner Kingdoms and they have plainly and democratically made different decisions on whether to stay or leave the Union.

    Thing is that as the United Kingdom is the Union but the only two legal partners in that union are pulling in opposite directions the EU are perfectly correct if they choose to look on the United Kingdom government as the two partners they legally are but that Westminster is NOT representing both partners equally.

    If the EU parliament chooses to regard the UK government representatives as actually representing the country of England, and the evidence clearly indicates that is factually correct, there is no other parliament of the country of England and even the Secretary of State for Scotland has claimed that, “The Treaty of Union Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”, and there are UK government commissioned papers that his claim is based upon. Then there is EVEL.

    The EU are able to maintain that Scotland as equally entitled to retain the UK seat as the hereditary member state as is England.

    So, without having to go through the long drawn out task, probably doomed to failure due to any member state using their veto, of changing EU laws or rules to allow England to drag Scotland out of the Union, the EU can get shot of the thorn in its side that is Westminster and retain the friend it has in Scotland.

    It didn’t take the EU long to reunite Germany and there was no queue for East Germany to join, and remember the Scots and Scotland are founder members of the EU for what went before the EU was a different kettle of fish, while East Germany and East Germans were NOT EU citizens.

    We Scots have been members since day one and factually there is no laid down EU way to throw us out unless the EU goes against everything it stands for.

  180. Lenny Hartley says:

    Cat yeah I forgot to put that EEA membership would also be required.
    Robert Peffers , so what if no holding pen? what if May does not allow section 30 until after Brexit? And yes I know about the UN or that we are Sovereign, the fact of the matter is that there is a legally binding requirement for the Scottish Government to seek a section 30 order so that a non reserved matter can be dealt with by Holyrood. Trying to get the UN involved or get a court to overrule the requirement for a Section 30 order will take longer than wringing A section 30 order out of mayhem.

    What happens to all the trade between Scotland and England /Wales/NI when the EU tells them to get stuffed because they will not allow the free movement of People, the Tariff might only be 1% , that’s not the point they will not be in the EU, EEA or Customs union so if we are a full member of the EU then trade between us and the RUK (I’m using that for convenience don’t get pedantic) will be subject to the same rules as the rest of the EU, ie Import/export tariffs, customs checks and more paperwork than you can shake a stick at. like it or not the other nations, principalities and provences of Great Britain and NI are our biggest market, If we can do our own trade deal with them and also allows for us being a member of EFTA, EEA and the customs union then to me and many others that I speak to is the best route. As I said I’m not ruling out full EU membership but the terms and conditions of that deal should be debated and settled in a referendum in the first five years of a Indy Scots Parliament .
    I have asked on here many times if this is a possibility but nobody has come back and said yeah or nae, I take from the silence that it is.

  181. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Reluctant Nationalist @ 22:02:

    However, I don’t think there’s any evidence that ‘commitment’ to … this goal is mutually exclusive to letting Scots decide on the matter separately after independence.

    Indeed. We can agree about that. It’s for us to decide, alone. When we reasonably can.

    The problem we currently face is twofold:

    Firstly our present state of affairs is befuddled by our entanglement with rUK. It’s not only the chain by which we are formally bound to London, so we have to get their “permission” to decide our own future, FGS, it’s also the full effect of the poisonous anti-EU propaganda that has emanated from the BritNat press over decades.

    Hopefully in an independent Scotland the current malign influence of the London-based Dead Tree Scrolls will be past tense. (I just pity those good folk in England who will have to continue to endure their vileness.)

    Secondly, we are currently in limbo over the attitude of the EU27. They have stayed diplomatically schtum during this whole “phoney war” period, when only the BritNat fairytale of a rosy future has had any airplay here. So to some extent we are talking in a vacuum. (If you’ll pardon the clumsy metaphor.)

    That will soon change, however, and then we’ll get a better idea of what the likely exit pathways might be.

    I imagine that Nicola & Co. are keeping options open to some extent in order to be able to react effectively to what is likely to come along. (I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they have been given at least an inkling of what’s in the pipeline – from the EU27 that is, not from the UKGov control freaks.)

    But soon things will become clearer.

    And starker.

  182. Cactus says:

    Main thread.

    Welcome.. et Love Scotland!

  183. Still Positive says:

    Welcome Jackie and many more of you too.

  184. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Caz-m –

    Hoots mon.

    Aye, it was a good day. It won’t get any coverage, but, hey, tens of thousands marched in London on Friday, and the BBC chose not to cover it, so we shouldn’t take it personally, eh?

    Besides, it’s not about that. It’s about keeping it all ‘real’ in terms of actual human contacts, bolstering friendships etc.

    What I learned, from meeting ‘real’ people today, is this: the ‘Yes’ movement will be – and must insist on being – separate from the SNP. The SNP can say and do only so much, allowing for political ‘etiquette’. It’s up to the broader ‘Yes’ movement, via whatever forms it may take, to say the rest.

    For example, the whole GERS debacle: why hasn’t the SNP already nailed that shite? Must it be left to this place to do it?

  185. crazycat says:

    @ Flower of Scotland at 11.06

    Sorry I missed you in Glasgow today; it’s always the way – I find out afterwards that people I’ve met before were there but I didn’t see them, and others I would have liked to meet for the first time were also elusive.

    It was a good event though; we have some really talented people among us.

  186. Artyhetty says:

    Welcome to SCOTLAND. Ever feel in need of a relaxing break form your usual chores, and the hum drum of that pesky daily grind? Come to bonnie Scotland, where you can see the ‘war games’. A truly mesnerising, spectatular event, only in your own back yard! Yes, just for you lucky folks in bonnie Scotland, the next 2 weeks will be a sight to behold, with MOD’s, navy ships, nuke subs, from all over the globe, converging on your lochs, forths and just off your beautliful shores, in a spectacular war game, just to test whether those nice wmd’s, not cheap you know, do what they are supposed to do.

    If things go a bit, shall we say, er, pear shaped, don’t worry we’ve got it covered, prepared for all eventualities lol! ha ha!

    So, get yourselves down to your local loch, or firth of Fifty, or whatever it’s called, and see the real big guns, in town for the next 2 weeks. Don’t you just feel, so very, very lucky!

    Thought so.

  187. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 23:58:

    … but the terms and conditions of that deal should be debated and settled in a referendum in the first five years of a Indy Scots Parliament.
    I have asked on here many times if this is a possibility but nobody has come back and said yeah or nae …

    Well, there are currently just too many imponderables in that, that’s why.

    Firstly, we don’t know what kind of trade deal (r-)UK will get with the EU. But if iScotland is still in the EU, the deal will be the same for us as for all the others, so we’re protected against any threat of revenge from rUK. (An important consideration for ScotRef.) UKGov claims it’s going to trade with the whole wide world, so by their own word it should be soluble. rUK will ultimately get some kind of deal, it just won’t get as good a one from outside the EU as from within. The deal will certainly have to accommodate both sides of Ireland somehow, let alone us. And since rUK trade with us is way greater than our trade with it, go figure that one out…

    Secondly, it will more likely be the other way round, to go into independence while remaining within the EU – for reasons of stability and continuity – then decide later, when we can, whether it’s in our best interest to continue with the arrangement or not. (Which is the mirror image of what the BritNats want to force us to do with their Brexit. Except not to give us any choice afterwards!)

    Thirdly, when independent, we always have any option open to us at any time. Brussels does not “rule” us in that sense at all, despite the cheap rhetoric that falsely equivalences it with London.

    Lastly, I don’t believe that any such EU referendum, if it happens, will be within the first parliament, simply because we will likely need that whole period to concentrate on getting Scotland up and running as an independent country. Do not underestimate the effort that will be needed to achieve that, without any additional distractions. So more likely in a second parliament, “after the dust has settled”, if there is still a demand. And if there is still a demand, the true facts will be there and people will be ready for the choice.

  188. Rock says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    “For example, the whole GERS debacle: why hasn’t the SNP already nailed that shite? Must it be left to this place to do it?”

    Socialist activists like yourself are better suited at nailing it than the SNP.

  189. Dr Jim says:

    When Independence comes everybody will say they always knew it was the right thing to do but …reasons!excuses!garbage!
    but it really doesn’t matter does it, as long as it comes

  190. Dr Jim says:

    The SNP can’t fight all of the enemy all of the time and drive the bus

  191. The Hidden Fortress says:

    There’s one advertised in ‘european job opportunities’ (sic) for London and none 100 miles from Glasgow, so let’s stay together and do amazing things. Bye, bye Mrs May :

  192. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ R Peffers: “What part of…is it that you don’t understand, Reluctant Nationalist?”

    A scottish citizen founded the U.S Navy, and another The Bank of England, but that doesn’t mean…well I’m sure you get my drift. The UK joined up, not Scotland. I feel dirty for mentioning that as I don’t want anyone to think I would use this as some way to detract from any positivity and hope around the issue (and there are already enough folk here who aren’t very optimistic about smoothly ‘remaining’ in the EU), but it’s just yer tone there made me say it. Look what ye’ve gone and made me do! Rest of your post was lovely, and if the apparent lack of mechanisms and laws works out the way you hope, then great; so be it!


    @ R Sutherland

    Yeah, I’d love for things to become a little clearer, and for Brussels to pump up the volume. Funnily enough I was just trying to imagine what life would be like here without the Londonpresse, and, well it’s strange. But mighty exciting.

  193. Sandy says:

    So we’re told that most of the people of Scotland don’t want another referendum. Hypothetical that may be but the point is we NEED another referendum.

  194. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lenny Hartley says: 26 March, 2017 at 11:58 pm:

    “Robert Peffers , so what if no holding pen? what if May does not allow section 30 until after Brexit?.

    In the first place, as I’ve explained several times in the past week or two, a section 30 order has absolutely nothing to do with Westminster granting permission for the Scottish Government to hold a referendum.

    It is an agreement between the two legislatures that they will both abide by terms that they both sign up to agree to. Nothing more and nothing less. If Nicola wants to run a referendum on anything decision under the Sun she can legally do so without anyone permission, even her own government or party.

    What Cameron & Salmond signed up to when they signed the Section 30 order was in regard to such things as the exact wording and number of Questions that would be on the referendum paper and such things as that.

    In other words they both signed up the agreed terms and in return both agreed to abide by the resultant outcome of the referendum.

    You may recall that the Westminster, (and MSM and Broadcaster’s), line was that they won the agreement on the questions to be asked and they had forced Eck to back down on having a Federal, or extra devolved powers, question on the paper. I’m absolutely certain that Eck had conned them into digging their heels in to refuse such extra questions because Eck didn’t actually want such questions in the first place.

    So that’s what a Section 30 order actually is – an agreement by both sides to the agreed between them rules and how the referendum is to be run but also that both sides will agree to abide by the result.

    If Nicola wants a referendum she does not need Westminster’s permission. If Westminster is daft enough to attempt to stop her then they will almost certainly assure an increased vote for independence but still not prevent the referendum going ahead.

    Even if they refuse to abide by the decision, which in effect is the democratic will of the people of Scotland, they will be on a hiding to nothing. It would put people’s backs up and the World is watching and taking note.

    Such a refusal would clearly breech the EU and UN Human Rights laws on Self determination.

    I’ve no idea, but could guess, where the idea that a section 30 order was the permission of Westminster to hold a referendum came from but it just is not true.

    ” … the fact of the matter is that there is a legally binding requirement for the Scottish Government to seek a section 30 order so that a non reserved matter can be dealt with by Holyrood.”

    No there is no legal requirement. It is only an agreement on the question and running of the referendum and an agreement, (if it is agreed), to abide by the result.

    “… Trying to get the UN involved or get a court to overrule the requirement for a Section 30 order will take longer than wringing A section 30 order out of mayhem.”

    Considering no such legal requirement exists in the first place that is utter claptrap. The involvement of the EU & UN would come about as a result of Westminster attempting to prevent the referendum being held.

    The plain fact is that the UK has signed up to both the EU and UN’s Human Rights Treaties that make it illegal for any signatory state to oppose the basic human right of self determination.

    No one need permission from anyone to hold a referendum. For heaven’s sake, even community councils run referendums to find out what their areas people want of even such things as bin collections, kids play parks and how many times the High Street gets swept.

    “What happens to all the trade between Scotland and England /Wales/NI when the EU tells them to get stuffed because they will not allow the free movement of People, the Tariff might only be 1% , that’s not the point they will not be in the EU, EEA or Customs union so if we are a full member of the EU then trade between us and the RUK (I’m using that for convenience don’t get pedantic) will be subject to the same rules as the rest of the EU, ie Import/export tariffs, customs checks and more paperwork than you can shake a stick at. like it or not the other nations, principalities and provences of Great Britain and NI are our biggest market

    Even that claim is either wrong or a great exaggeration. In the first place vast ammounts of Scottish products and produce are, “Exported”, to England that are not classed as Scottish exports as the Treasury counts them as English Exports because they leave the UK from Englisj ports and airports. Secondly the likes of ASDA, TESCO, Sommerfield & Sainsburys are ferrying stuff up from the south and none of it is classed as being exports from England to Scotland because these UK wide companies stock their retail outlets from English based depots and their head offices do not claim they exported them to Scotland.

    In point of fact We are very probably England’s largest export market. Do you imaging all those English based retailers will up stakes from Scotland after independence?

    “If we can do our own trade deal with them and also allows for us being a member of EFTA, EEA and the customs union then to me and many others that I speak to is the best route.”

    The fly in that ointment is that England has probably a lot more to lose than does Scotland if they were daft enough to try a hard Border between the two countries. After all they need the electricity we export to them every year, over 26% of Scottish electricity went south last year, Then there is gas and oil, Whisky and 70% of UK Gin is made in Scotland and we even export water to England.

    ” … As I said I’m not ruling out full EU membership but the terms and conditions of that deal should be debated and settled in a referendum in the first five years of a Indy Scots Parliament”

    Why on Earth would it take five years? Do you imagine that Scotland doesn’t have the whip hand in such deals?

    Hell! the very first cross border Electricity grid connection was around 1945/6 from the old Portobello Power station into the North of England and we have been exporting power to England ever since. Likewise the first undersea power link was across the Irish Sea to Northern Ireland. When I was a wee school boy my Dad was working as a shunter and engine driver at Waverley station Goods area.

    Every morning a long express train thundered into Waverley, it had 13 very large special wagons in tow. 11 of them carried on to London Smithfield with best Aberdeen Angus beef in them and two remained to be distributed across Central Scotland.

    This train was followed by an even longer one and it went through so fast you couldn’t get time to count the also very long wagons. This was fish heading for Billingsgate in London.

    ” … I have asked on here many times if this is a possibility but nobody has come back and said yeah or nae, I take from the silence that it is”

    You may take is as you wish but I know that in the case of import and export the balance is most certainly in favour of Scotland and I’m even more certain that I’ve expressed this on Wings in a different manner many times by highlighting the very many crooked scams that invariably favour England. I think it may have been Ken500 just a few days age who highlighted another scam that has gone on all my life and before.

    Whole mountains have been quarried and exported to England as have much other gravel, sands and other aggregates. There some years ago some legislation on the scam of Scottish aggregates going south very cheaply. Cannot remember too many details of how the scam worked but I remember the SG negotiating a better deal.

    Believe me if you start looking into the many nice little earners Westminster have operated since 1706/7 you will find out they have been robbing Scotland blind.

    By the way, there is very few things that England exports to Scotland that could not also be produced in Scotland but here’s a fact. Scotland is a net exporter and England a net importer and that is without making allowances for the many rip-offs.

    Much of the manufactured goods have been artificially moved from Scotland. You can always bet if a UK wide business starts to cut back on production that the first branches to close or start shedding jobs have always been in Scotland and the reason is because the registered head offices have been shifted to England and that even included the Scottish banks.

    I think you have been listening to far too much Anglo-Propaganda.

  195. Sandy says:

    Robert P. @ 2.11am.
    Speaking as one who greatly appreciates your wide knowledge, your great wisdom, your 100% common sense, & the manner with which you impart these FACTS & FIGURES & the time you spend researching & composing these “essays”, is there not some way you can get these to an even wider audience. In different circumstances, MSM or TV media would snap you up on an exclusive contract.
    May I also state that I admire your reticence in your replies to the propagandised posters, even though their posts are, at times, rather “risqué” in their wording content.
    Lang may your lum reek.

  196. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Ooh Sandy, you are awful…but I like you. [citation needed]

  197. yesindyref2 says:

    Joint Warrior on, forgotten it was due. Saw a few luckily off Port Glasgow and down the Clyde. A good selection of frigates, plus Iver Huitfeldt on her way by the looks of it, Diamond, and of course Carney. Anti-sub, usual minesweeping, strong anti-air as well. I think we should bide our time till they’re all in our waters, declare instant Indy, impound the lot and make all the crews citizens. Free daily whisky and Tunnocks tea cakes, great terms of service, they’ll love it here. Me for Scotland’s First Sea Pleb please. Thanks.

    Who wants to be Air Chief Flyboy/girl, 4 sqns of Typhoons and whatever else has been flown in, and who’s for Army Chief Battleaxe?

    Wha daur meddle wi me – that’s the spirit.

  198. robertknight says:

    No doubt our unbiased meeja will spend today praising General Mayhem’s efforts in coming north to talk at the rebellious Scots, which she will undoubtedly crush.

    I’m beginning to feel sick at the prospect.




  199. Macart says:


    Basically what Robert Peffers said, but for confirmation you need look no farther than the FMs keynote conference speech. ‘Scotland WILL have a referendum’.

    There were no caveats or obfuscations. A simple statement of intent. For folks wondering if a consultative referendum bears any weight in the real world? I give you the recent precedent set by Westminster government itself of the EU referendum, which was itself consultative by nature.

    Should Westminster move to block this by use of some obscure ministerial or governmental instrument, then quite legally the SG could move to a snap Scottish Parliament election seeking specific manifesto mandate. This really wouldn’t suit Ms May however for obvious reasons. Her anti democratic actions would have been seen to be directly responsible and it would prove a PR disaster of epic proportions.

    As a weel kent fella once said, ‘there is more than one route’.

  200. gus1940 says:

    I was led to believe that there was to have been a protest rally yesterday at BBC Scotland’s HQ at Pacific Quay.

    Last night I searched as many news sites as I could think of looking for reports on the rally but drew a total blank.

    I wasn’t totally surprised considering the facttrhat the media is near 1

  201. Robert Louis says:

    Robert Peffers is bang on the money above regarding a referendum. Scotland does not need ‘permission’ from anybody, as he explained section 30 is a technical document, but a referendum is perfectly possible without one.

    Besides, why would Westminster want to stifle democracy??? That is how the rest of the world would see it.

    The Brexit referendum was purely advisory, so that is no impediment – thanks to the craven London Tories for setting a clear precedent on that point.

    Too little too late from the London Tories and Theresa May. I do not doubt her visit today is nothing to do with listening to Scotland, but rather a window dressing exercise, to make the gullible in England THINK she has consulted Scotland.

    IMHO, Nicole Sturgeon should tell her to get tae f***.

    The Britnats are terrified because they know they will lose another referendum.

  202. gus1940 says:

    I must have inadvertently pressed the Submit button so continuing my previous comment:-

    I wasn’t totally surprised considering the fact that the media is near 100% anti Independence and consoled myself with the fact that the protest would feature prominently in today’s National possibly even with photos making an attractive front page.

    However, I have just finished reading today’s on-line National and it is devoid of even the slightest mention of the rally.

    Am I just imagining that the rally took place?

    I find this blackout in reporting an event which was well trailed deeply disturbing.

  203. Nana says:

    Hahahahahahaha the brass neck on this woman. Hope Nicola tells her “now is not the time”
    May to offer Holyrood deal to defuse indyref call

  204. Nana says:

    BBC under fire for ‘lack of coverage’ of pro-EU march

    Esteban González Pons speech / Treaty of Rome

    UK ‘undoubtedly worse off’ without Brexit deal, EU’s Michel Barnier warns

  205. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good Morning,

    Another nice day here, hope you enjoyed your day off, I’m starving for links. Thank You. Kettle’s on!

    Peace Always

  206. Nana says:


    Good morning. I had a lovely mother’s day, spoiled rotten.

    A few more links to ease the hunger pains!

    Talks process has run its course – O’Neill

    Russian opposition leader arrested as anti-corruption protests held

  207. Smallaxe says:


    You deserve to be spoiled. Now you’re spoiling us with extra links. Thank You!

    Peace Always

  208. Les Wilson says:

    Well apparently Mahem is coming to Scotland today, to talk with Nicola about Brexit.
    Two things with this, 1, This is an attempt to show that she really, really, yes really wants to keep Scotland in the loop.

    I feel it is a bit late for concern on that. However a nice diplomatic albeit media coverage spin to show her cynical caring side.

    2, Whether or not she mentions Indy, this is designed to try and effect the vote, I doubt she will try and avoid a chance to scold Nicola, again as a petulant child and tell her how great we are together blah blah.

    She does not heed who she is speaking to in Nicola, who is a very determined woman not a petulant child,and one who will not take any lessons from from an un-elected Prime Minister.

    May will get her media success but that is all she will get.
    Nicolawill not budge.
    Westminster has made the relationship as a partner of equals abundantly clear, there is’nt one at all, and never has been.
    So she will get no hope of movement now from Nicola and can only blame herself and Westminster for the demise of the entity once falsely called the United Kingdom.

    Scotland no more to be governed by England, no more to be dictated to by Westminster, no more illegal foreign wars, no more trident,no more stealing our assets,no more fiddling our exports.

    A new Scotland will emerge to rejoin our place in the family of nations, and we will do that very well,without Westminster’s help.

  209. Sinky says:

    Scotsman should be renamed The North Briton this morning.

    Neil Gunn would be birling in his grave to read a distant relative going on about people leaving Scotland due to threat of another referendum when all evidence points to more moving north to escape Little Britain.

    Other articles on having a Team UK football side plus usual Brian Monteith havers then lead letter has Jill Stephenson ranting on about SNP not having a mandate.

  210. Ken500 says:

    Teresa May coming to lecture Nicola and people will will only increase the support and Vote for Independence. Nicola will tell May Independence is an unstoppable force. People have been fighting for it since 1928 and before through the Ballot box and in other ways. By appealing to the EU and UN for human rights in self determination. The Union is a spent force which has not worked. Scotland has been forced against the majority view and wishes in an undemocratic union into Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud by a minority elected Gov in Westminster.

    The Westminster unionists Gov has been a force for bad in the world committing International crime. Killing and maining and killing millions of innocent people at home and away. All around the world. The Westminster unionist gov has committed crimes against humanity. It is as cruel as it is undemocratic. Causing misery and strife all around the world. Starvation and hardship.

    The ToryUnionist have ruined the UK economy and the world environment at every opportunity for personal gains and illegal profiteering. The Tory Party and its members, along with. Westminster minority elected Unionists are the most disgusting people ever to be put on the face of the world.

    May is a complete and utter cruel, evil and greedy liar without any kind of respect for the common person. She lying says she wants to champion. For political gain. Or principles of any kind. Just a career politician without any scruples on the take and always has been. Causing death and destruction all around the world. Willing to lie and cheat at every opportunity along with her Westminster unionist colleagues. A force for real evil.

    Scotland is not for turning as May will find. Scotland is on the path for real Democracy finally at last. No Tory criminal or anyone else who tries to stand in the way will survive. They will be swept aside. For far too long the majority in Scotland wishes have been denied by a bunch of craven crooks and other unelected greedy establishment liars. They could not care less if people do not survive or have the right to happy lives. Let all them be put asunder for their crimes when Scotland finally does to decide to be Independent. Without the opposition campaign of greed, lies and opportunism.

    May’s visit and appalling rhetoric and anti demicrstic threats will only succeed in increasing the Independence movement in Scotland and the rest of the UK. If May desists the same as her now defeat collegue Cameron . May will go the same way. Independence and democracy is an unstoppable force as she will have to acknowledge or not survive. The lesson is there to be learnt, Not lecture a whole nation in lies.

    Trying to do the impossible taking the majority in the UK, out of the EU against their will. To appease the appalling ambition of her and her devious, malicious, greedy Party colleagues. The enemy of the people and the world. May and her colleges are a hundred times worse than Thatcher and she was bad enough. By now Thatcher was gone (ten years) May is still just going on getting started. Scotland will not survive for any longer a malicious, duplicit, lying unionist Gov. The only way as the Tory Unionists and their colleagues and associates have shown is Independence. For a more equal society in Scotland and the rest of the world.

    Scotland is one of the oldest Democracies in the world. A force for compassion, equality, fairness and kindness in the world. No lying arrogant Tory greedy sycophant. Ignorant and contemptuous with a total lack of any self awareness, on the take, will ever change it Major change is now needed for Scotland to take it’s rightful place in the world. In the EU with friends of common interests, co-operation and compassion for protection and prosperity. England and Wales must now go their own way they have chosen. Independence in Europe.

    Not in an illegal, unfair, unequal undemocratic Union which has failed in every way because of Westminster unionists and their appalling behaviour and intransigence in the world. Illegally Killing and maiming millions of innocent people and immorally bringing down the world economy. In order that they can increase their personal wealth and tax evade. Without any censor or retribution.

    They illegally make the Law and illegally break the Law with no retribution. Keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act to hide their crimes. Time for an end to this immoral scurrilous union. . Scotland and England/Wales must go it alone, in equal co operation, to bring peace and harmony to the world. Now there is no other way because of Westminster unionists criminal behaviour and total disrespect of other people’s rights and lives. Not be bullied and misused.

  211. Les Wilson says:

    Any video links of yesterdays BBC rally anyone?

  212. Smallaxe says:

    Les Wilson says:

    “Scotland no more to be governed by England, no more to be dictated to by Westminster, no more illegal foreign wars, no more trident,no more stealing our assets,no more fiddling our exports.

    A new Scotland will emerge to rejoin our place in the family of nations, and we will do that very well,without Westminster’s help”

    Thanks, Les, 5 lines that bring a warm glow to the heart and a determination to see this come to fruition.

    Peace Always

  213. DerekM says:

    @ Breeks

    Yes i agree we must also remember that us old campaigners have long since got over that initial awakening anger,confusion and sense of betrayal which new yessers will be feeling.

    It is our job no our duty to help temper them by showing patience with them lashing out or making mistakes.

    Remember they are not in possession of all the facts and like all of us before they now search for a niche inside the yes movement.

    So tread softly Wingers and do not go shooting them down because it may seem like they do not know anything,they don’t.

    For all new yessers right here on Wings you will find the information you are looking for all you have to do is start at the beginning and read.

  214. Nana says:


    You can watch it here Les

  215. Ken500 says:

    Nana with the brilliant links for sanity.

    Thanks Nana for all you do. It is exceptional.

    Thanks a Billion, Rev Stu.

  216. Les Wilson says:

    Thanks Nana, again!

  217. Brian Powell says:

    T May will be explaining the gutting of the Smith Commission, the further gutting of all amendments the SNP MPs put forward, EVEL, the Sewell Convention turning out to be a bag of do-dos, Brexit, the ignoring of all proposals put forward by the FM,are all things Scotland shouldn’t worry its little head about, cos she is hear to pat our heads and say it all fine now.

  218. Nana says:


    Och Ken you are welcome. Perhaps I should fear for my own sanity though, some of the stuff I read sure makes me want to howl at the moon. One of these nights the neighbours may get a shock,lol

    One more link

    A Swedish journalists take on GERS

  219. Golfnut says:

    @ Ken500.

    An inconvenient and therefore airbrushed from history fact is that there were 2 home rule bills suspended in 1914 due to the Great War. Scotland and Ireland were both pushing for home rule.

    The treasury accounts for Scotland were suspended in 1922, these accounts showed Scotland’s massive surplus in revenue generation and were quietly hidden away.

    We have been on this road for a long time Ken.

  220. David P says:

    I’m sure some Wings readers must have seen the story in yesterday’s Sunday Herald about the European Parliament constitution committee.

    They published a paper stating there was enough “constitutional flexibility” to allow for separate arrangements to be made for other parts of the UK when England and Wales leave the EU. Northern Ireland and Scotland could remain in the EU, pending the resolution of their status via border or independence referenda.

    I’ve searched for a link to the full report, but drawn a blank. Could one of our esteemed contributors track this report down?

  221. heedtracker says:

    From 6am, BBC r4 Today news gimps endless NOW is NoT the TIME brainwashing, Nic Robinson wheezes over the airwaves.

    All weekend BBC boosts UKIPer Carswell’s brilliance as a fine tory, with complete blackout of 100,000 anti-Brexit march on the 60th anniversary of the treaty of Rome.

    Just another week of industrial strength tory BBC attack propaganda, off the scales because NOw iS NOT tHe TIMe on planet toryboy.

    Meanwhile, great news for UK waters,

    Hurricane Energy
    Hurricane Energy makes oil discovery west of Shetland Islands

    Find adds to series of wells that may be biggest beneath UK waters this century

    Hurricane looks to be a new force in North Sea oil

    YESTERDAY by: Andrew Ward in London and Nathalie Thomas in Edinburgh

    Hurricane Energy has made a further oil discovery west of the Shetland Islands days after Royal Dutch Shell and BP won exploration licences in an area the UK is counting on to breathe new life into its struggling oil and gas industry.”

    Cant see our imperial masters loosen their grip round Scotland’s neck for a while yet, because now is not the time.

  222. Robert Peffers says:

    Ian Brotherhood says: 27 March, 2017 at 12:35 am:

    “What I learned, from meeting ‘real’ people today, is this: the ‘Yes’ movement will be – and must insist on being – separate from the SNP. The SNP can say and do only so much, allowing for political ‘etiquette’. It’s up to the broader ‘Yes’ movement, via whatever forms it may take, to say the rest.”

    That, political ‘etiquette’, thing, though, Ian, is applied only to those actually in elected to government or as SNP party officials. The rest of the SNP membership are often also active YES members.

    The SG must stick to the rules, even NOT clapping in the Westminster Debating Chamber. By the large the SNP do play within the rules. This was quite apparent when Alex Salmond resigned as FM and has been more outspoken ever since.

    Which is why the SNP not only have to publish the GERs figures that you seem to think the SG can, “Nail”. Salmond did in fact publicly nail the GERs figures very soon after he resigned as FM but has had to keep more quiet on such matters since re-entering Westminster as a back bencher.

    The rest of the SNP membership, myself included, often do nail the GERs figures and more than a few other Westminster, “Nice Little Earners”, that many, non-SNP, YES members haven’t even found out about yet.

    For example, the whole GERS debacle: why hasn’t the SNP already nailed that shite? Must it be left to this place to do it?

    Come on! I’ve been speaking out about the GERs figures ever since the were invented – which of course they are, “Invented”, by the entire Westminster Establishment. From the Office Of National Statistics to the Treasury and Customs & Excise.

  223. Brian Powell says:

    Robert Peffers

    And on a more general note, it doesn’t matter how many Yes groups there are, when it comes to Government there needs to be political representation. Governments recognise Governments and the SNP are the only recognised political force, in the UK, EU and across the world.

  224. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Mrs May is believed to have scheduled a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon for tomorrow (Monday) and is thought to be prepared to offer assurances on protecting the rights of EU nationals…”

    Mayhem – why don’t you offer us somethig we can’t actually get with indy?

    Mayhem comes bearing sparkling beads for the North Britons to bribe them to stay in her precious precious precious Union. We can have all the sparkling beads we want with Indy, you nugget.

    We know your game, Mayhem…

  225. caz-m says:

    Ian brotherhood

    Very frustrating to be constantly slaughtered day in day out from a Yoon friendly media regarding this £15 billion Pound deficit.

    Maybe the SNP Government could arrange a debate with BBC Scotland or STV dedicated to explaining exactly what the GERS figures are and how a future Independent Scottish Government would not be tied to these figures.

  226. Socrates MacSporran says:

    While reading Robert Peffers’ excellent piece which he wrote in the early hours of this morning, for earlier in this thread – I had a sudden thought, regarding this Section 30 order which, apparently, the Scottish Government will need if they are to have the referendum result accepted by our Imperial Masters at Westminster.

    Simply, why doesn’t the SG use the Sewel Convention against Westminster? So, if Westminster will “not normally” intrude on devolved issues – let the SG tell them: “Butt out guys, we are having our Referendum, and we are not asking your permission to hold one – although normally we would”.

    Sauce for the goose and all that.

  227. Dr Jim says:

    Mrs May will today “slap Nicola Sturgeon down” or “Blast” her or “Told her in no uncertain terms” or any other of the silly expressions used by the media to make what is inevitable not be so and the point is we will never know what exactly happened because the media will only report or not report what happens

    And that’s more important than what one politician says to another
    We live in a country where the news is manipulated to create news so the news media can report on itself and then project it at us and call it fact

    SKY news has turned into a polling company where it supplies loaded questions to itself then asks what we think of the factual conclusions they’ve come to, and then offers us a choice of something we never asked for
    That’s the news media for you Houdinis of the written and spoken word, now you see them now you don’t

    One thing is clear though they’re devious Bastirts if you’re not alert enough to catch them at it

    No wonder the rest of the world looks on in amazement at the outright shit the Brit Media gets away with
    Try it on in Europe and we know what happens, all those nasty furriners tend to do something about it, but in Britain it’s tut tut pass me another Mr Kiplings french fancy and isn’t it awful what’s the world coming to

  228. manandboy says:

    While May, Davidson, Rennie & Dugdale continue their attempts to force everyone to believe in the Emperor’s new clothes, the truth is glaringly obvious. Brexit will be a long term disaster for England and the British Establishment.

    In sheer desperation, May is coming to Edinburgh to try to con Nicola into agreeing to lease the Golden Goose to Westminster indefinitely in exchange for more powers.

    I can get more powers from a 4 pack of Duracell batteries.

  229. manandboy says:

    Nicola will do well to remember at all times, that treachery is May’s first instinct when dealing with a Colony.

  230. Lenny Hartley says:

    re section 30 guys, off course we have a right to self determination, I agree to disagree about whether it is a technical or legal procedure, I have been told by trusted sources that we were stitched up like a kipper by labour in the original Scotland act and it is indeed a legal argument, I also know there are more ways to skin a cat , however it’s probable that the Brexit negotiations will be relatively short and unless we could have agreement on a holding pen which is unlikely then we will be out of the EU before Indy.

    I say again does anybody know hof any reason why not if we are in Efta,EEA,Customs Union can we cut our own deal with our biggest market? If we stay in the EU or seek to join at a later date there may be rather large queues on the A1 and M74.

  231. David P says:

    It appears that the Sunday Herald story yesterday on Brendan O’Leary’s paper – detoxifying the U.K.’s exit from the EU – is old news, based on a blog published last June.

    Although any of its points have been clarified by events,, it does finish with one illuminating insight which seems even more valid now than last year:

    “There is one key lesson from the political science of multi-national states. They are usually not destroyed by secessionists alone. Rather, the key trigger that leads to the break-up of such states is the unilateral adjustment of the terms of the union by the centre, without the consent of its multi-national components.”

    On that basis, I say Theresa May is doing a grand job!

  232. North chiel says:

    Vague promises of ” jam tomorrow” over possible future devolved powers
    just won’t wash at this late stage of the game. Hopefully the FM will ” spell out” Scotland’s
    terms and condition over Brexit . If the PM continues to stymie our elected government’s
    requirements , then our FM should inform PM May that the referendum goes ahead with or without
    Westminster’s permission.

  233. schrodingers cat says:

    re-the referendum

    correct, there is no legal requirement for a section 30, anyone can hold a referendum.

    however Nicola wants one because she fears without it, the unionists will abstain and not participate. Indeed, she has already said she wont hold indyref2 without one.

    Nicola wants the result to be unequivocal, the result to be accepted by both sides.

    the eu and the un wont lift a finger unless it is, indeed, even if it is and westminster ignores it, the eu/un still wont help us.

    but treeza hasnt said no, just no the now. fine. i dont believe the uk will get a good deal, i also think treeza will have no choice but to walk out of the negotiations this autumn. It is only after we have left the SM and are behind WTO trade barriers that the full impact will be felt.

    so if the unionists want to stall indyref2, fine by me, there isnt going to be a better time in the next 2 years to hold it,things will only get worse.

    so we produce the section 30 request tomorrow, then buy some popcorn and sit back and watch this car crash happen

  234. Legerwood says:

    Seems the UK Government has hit problems, costly ones, with the decommissioning contracts for old nuclear power stations.

    And a Chinese company is going to take over some of the responsibility of running South West Trains

  235. schrodingers cat says:

    North chiel says:
    Vague promises of ” jam tomorrow” over possible future devolved powers

    Vague promises of ”quality jam tomorrow”

  236. Scott says:

    O/T SophieCo_RT

    Gerald Lyons on RT saying TM will set the date if there is new Referendum and more or less saying that Scotland and Northern Ireland are subsidised by the rest of UK
    Worth a listen or read the article.

    This is my take on it.
    Get back in your box you sweaty jocks we are your master.

  237. Robert Peffers says:

    @Reluctant Nationalist says: 27 March, 2017 at 1:33 am:

    “A scottish citizen founded the U.S Navy, and another The Bank of England, but that doesn’t mean…well I’m sure you get my drift.”

    Oh! I get your line – loud and clear, Reluctant Nationalist. Trouble is the line is claptrap.

    I can only recommend you teach yourself the real facts that you seem to accept the are the Westminster Establishment false version of the real facts.

    For example I have, several times here on Wings told the real story with references to actual facts. Allow me to do so once more and not for the first time within the past 7 days.

    The person you claim to be the Scottish citizen who founded the Bank of England is claptrap. The Bank of England was NOT founded by William Patterson and it was founded before the two kingdoms united in 1706/7.

    William Patterson was thus a Scots born citizen of the Kingdom of England. In fact he was employed by Sir Robert Harley who, besides his other English Parliament posts, was the English Parliament’s Spy master. Paterson was also a close friend and colleague of the English undercover agent, Daniel Defoe. Paterson’s role in the foundation of the Bank of England was to instigate the public subscription scheme to raise public money to bail out the English Crown/parliament that had massive national debt from fighting several European wars.

    These wars were all due to the English Parliament’s, “Navigation Acts”, that prevented all other nations, (including Scotland), from trade with the English colonies and dominions, except by use of the English Mercantile Marine. If they used their own ships they had to crew them with English crews. That is the skipper of the ship was an English Merchant, (hence the title, “Mercantile Marine”). Thus England could dictate both the price paid for the cargo at one end of the transaction and the price paid for the goods at the other end of the transaction. This made English Merchants very, very wealthy.

    So Paterson’s scheme was to have these wealthy merchants contribute to the Subscription Scheme to bail out the English Government who fought the wars to protect the source of their wealth.

    For that cash the English Government gave the scheme a Royal Charter and it was the Royal Charter that led to the formation of the Bank of England, (which has never belonged to the government of England or the Monarchy of England. It remained a private company until 1946 when nationalised by the United Kingdom – NOT England.

    Then Paterson was dispatched to Scotland to set up the Darien Expedition in order to bankrupt, NOT Scotland, but the wealthy Scottish Landowners who were also the Scottish Parliamentarians. Scotland had no National debts.

    So pre-Treaty of Union, both Paterson, the London Scot, and Defoe, the spy, were in Scotland working for Sir Robert Harley, in order to force the Scottish parliamentarians into signing the treaty of union.

    So much for your claim that Patterson was a citizen of Scotland. I leave it to yourself to properly research the real history of John Paul Jones. Here’s a potted history:-

    John Paul Jones was born in Scotland in 1742. His naval began aged 13. By 21 he captained a ship sailing between the West Indies and British ports.

    Jones joined the Continental Navy during the American Revolution and thus became a American citizen when the colony gained independence. Incidentally he later served in the Russian navy, and died in Paris in 1792.

    Rest of your post was lovely, and if the apparent lack of mechanisms and laws works out the way you hope, then great; so be it!

    It certainly is not, “Apparent”, it is factual. There simply are no legal EU ways to leave the EU except by formal, (written), request. As witnessed by the need for the UK Government to submit an Article 50 request before it will even be recognised by the EU.

    Furthermore, the aims of the EU are written down as such and if the EU does not stick by its own stated aims then it loses all credibility as a European Union.

    They cannot very well preach that their aims are for fighting for the equality of all European States and thus the equality of all European Union citizens and then agree to allow the United Kingdom to drag 5 and a bit million EU citizens out of the EU against their democratically voted for wills. Then there is the simple truth that the EU member state titled, “The United Kingdom”, is indeed a united kingdom with only two equally sovereign kingdoms as its member kingdoms.

    It is thus not a country but actually contains four distinct countries that the UK government has acknowledged as such by instigating devolution along the lines of four distinct devolved countries.

    Far as the UK is concerned there is a great big fly in the UK’s ointment. here is no Parliament of the country of England and that will be their downfall. The Westminster parliament is not only the de facto parliament of England but it proves it by use of EVEL. As the old saying goes, You cannot have it both ways. Westminster cannot be both the parliament of England and the parliament of the UK at the same time and there is no MPs elected as the Country of England Government.

  238. John H. says:

    On the news this morning.
    Theresa May will say in her speech today that she has no intention of allowing the ties that bind us to be loosened and weakened.

    That will go down well across Scotland.

  239. manandboy says:


    GERS stands for Government Expenditure & Revenue Scotland. It was created by Ian Lang as a purely political device and has been used as such ever since. GERS is basically just a series of estimates about Scotland’s economic performance as part of the UK. And it works like this:-

    A street flower seller sets up on the pavement outside the John Lewis department store in Glasgow. He does a roaring trade because his flowers are fresh and his prices are very fair.
    But at the end of the day just as he’s clearing up, the manager of John Lewis comes out and tells him that he must pay 9% of all John Lewis’s running costs for that day, arguing that it was John Lewis customers who bought his flowers.
    This results in the flower seller losing all his profits and being up to his ears in debt.

    This is how the 15 billion deficit in GERS occurs – it is made up of England’s running costs which Scotland has to pay 9% of.

    So when Ruth Davidson and her Unionist gang, bang on about Scotland’s deficit, you’ll know the facts.

    Were GERS calculated on the basis that Scotland is Independent, there would be no deficit, and Scotland would make a healthy profit.
    But Westminster don’t want Scots to know that – it would destroy the carefully nurtured, Unionist manufactured image of Scotland as ‘too poor, too wee & too stupit’.

    The EU couldn’t treat Scotland as bad as Westminster does. The difference is the EU WANTS to treat us well, while Westminster WILL ONLY EVER treat Scotland badly.

  240. manandboy says:

    John H., may I make a suggestion, just to clarify what the Prime minister actually means.
    “On the news this morning.
    Theresa May will say in her speech today that she has no intention of allowing the chains that bind us to be loosened and weakened.”

  241. Dr Jim says:

    See if another english politician tells me he subsidises me to the tune of 16% but it’s right and proper that he does
    and tells the Norn Irish he subsidises them to the tune of 24% but that the English people are happy to extend us such generosity to keep their precious Union together

    Does that English politician think that makes me like him any more or that I’m grateful for his generosity

    Or does it not dawn on him that perhaps i’d like to take his suggested subsidy and his arrogant attitude and place it internally within an area of his body from which only a surgeon could remove it

    It’s not that I’m angry I’m actually quite smiley at the prospect of inserting and attaching the precious Union to such politicians internal organs where I hope it would remain in painful perpetuity

    Do these same politicians think if they win the referendum we’ll all just settle down and become good citizens who’ll put all this Independence nonsense aside or have they not contemplated for one second that we’ll dislike them even more than would be normally humanly possible

    They’re very divisive these Union politicians

  242. vlad (not that one ) says:

    @David P, 9:30
    Re Sunday Herald story about the European Parliament constitution committee and constitutional flexibility to accommodate special arrangements for Scotland.

    There is one document from January 2017, at

    It indicates just that the question of special arrangements for Scotland in respect of access to single market and the free movement of people should be looked at. (The document also expressly refers to the 62% Scottish Remain vote.)

    This looks a bit like a hint that there might be such flexibility. There may have been a follow-up, but I did not find any.

  243. Ken500 says:

    We have to talk about the Greens. Their duplicuty could damage the Scottish Independence movement. By putting people off of going for it. They are behaving as bad a unionists. They collude with the unionists at every level.

    The Green Party policies are the most unpopular in Scotland/UK for many obvious reasons. The vast majority do not support them. The rhetoric of landownership, banning cars cycle lanes etc do not go down well for various reasons with the general public.

    Borrowing wasting and spending £Milliions/Billions of public money at local level on grotesque unpopular projects the majority do not want, and against any conception of green principles. They betray their own ideals. In coalition and collusion with unionists groups at local level. Responsible for cutting local services because their is not enough funds because of their illegal over spends. Not producing a balanced budget. Then cutting the essential services budget and blanming the SNP Gov who are on a fixed ever decreasing illegal budget from the UK Gov. A UK Gov which is destroying major industry and opportunity in the Scottish economy through lack of equal investment etc.

    The unionist green local administration cutting education, additional needs, social funding, leisure facilities, potholes and the like. Then in collusion with unionists in coalition demanding more and more tax increases. With demands for increasing taxes on the already hard pressed public. It is not on. Especially as the grotesque the non mandated monstrosity projects damage the local economy and cities centres. Against the majority wishes, and the majority interest which the majority did not vote. Increasing traffic chaos and fuel emission levels in the City. Already the worst in the UK. Refusing a Eighty million gift to pedestrianise and improve the City Centre. The majority are furious,

    The Green then in their ignorance, use out of date, for various reasons figures, to suggest the SNP Gov are cutting budgets ie Education etc which they are not. The figures are from a previous time when eg pupil nos were higher and there was more money available from UK Gov. I.e. The UK Gov was raising more in taxes and borrowing more pro rata. When the Dcotyish Gov cannot borrow and the Westminster Gov policies damages main industry and economic opportunities in Scotland.

    I.e. Using previous years education figures. Without the necessity understanding, either ignorance or malicious intent or both. .When pupil nos were higher pro rata as a percentage of the population. Pupil number are generally falling. The birth rate is narrowing because people are having less children. Previous UK Gov were raising more taxes and borrowing more money. so there was more money available. Causing Unsustainable debt. Then spending it on illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.

    Previous UK Gov Labour administration was raising six hundred billion in taxes and borrowing a hundred and twenty billion. A total of seven hundred and twenty billion. The present Tory administration is raising five hundred and thirty three billion. Plus borrowing and spending one hundred billion. A total of six hundred and thirty three billion. A lot less. Cutting spending on Education, NHS the vulnerable and essential services. While illegally spending Billions on Hinkley Point, HS2 , Heathrow and Trident, All Illegal under EU and International Law. For mitigation of emissions and on unfair competition payment i.e. Illegal payments (bribes). Dangerous outcomes and emission problems etc.

    Projects of little value when there are more credible, less wasteful, legal alternatives available. Pro rata Scotland always raising more and is in surplus, without Westminster unionist malicious interference and policies. Scotland would always be in surplus and credit with a thriving economy and vulnerable support, properly managed essential services. Independent in the EU for support and co operation with our neighbours and the rest of the world. Supporting better outcomes worldwide.

    Scotland has a 40 million disaporia and friends. Scotland’s constructive influence goes worldwide. Scotttish invention and ideas shaped the world. The first country in the world to have supported, available tertiary education. The major majority commitment to education still continues to the present day.

    The Green Party’s behaviour. Promoting extremely unpopular policies, Lsnd taxes and landownership reforms, banning cars and wastefully spending public money on grotesque projects of little value, which the population are not majority concerned about. With flaws the Greens are not even aware about and do not consider. While the Greens complain about essential popular projects of absolute value.

    Attacking the SNP Gov at every turn in collusion with lying Unionists. Using out of date figures etc on Education Colluding with unionists at local,level to cut essential services funding because of their bad management. The illegal bad waste of public money by unionist green coalition councils. Then complaining, posteuring, and voting against cuts to essential service, which their behaviour has caused at Gov Level. Complaining of centralisation which is not true. The damage to local services have been done at local level by unionist green collusion and gross mismanagement.

    The constant lying attacks and voting down of the SNP Gov in collusion with the unionists at Gov with malicious report. The ignorance and arrogance of the Green participation who got into Gov on malicious calculation. Within an electoral system which is open to abuse of intentions by miscalculation. The majority of the public do not even understand how it works. Spreading the myth of split voting in order to dilute the SNP/Independence supporters majority vote. The myth of giving away their vote which was untrue. It lost the SNP majority. Weaking the SNP majority in Holyrood and opened up an opportunity for the unionist illegitimate criticism. The Greens joining in. It can increasingly damaging the SNP Independence movement.

    The Greens behaviour and opportunist ways could damage the Independence movement. People will put off of voting for it. Essential voters could be put off, by the Green unpopular policies. Not supporting ‘green’ ideals and principles at local Gov level. Wasting Millions, Billions at local level. Borrowing, wasting and spending more at local level. Increasing debt. Not spending on essential service. Cuting them. Then falsely blaming the SNP Scottish Gov at Gov level for the non mandate policies. The green and unionists have carried out at local level with damage to the local economy.

    The constantly unfair, illegitimate and malicious criticism at Gov level and voting down All this could damage the Independence movement. Politics is not a Game. Perhaps the Greens could find common ground, regroup and reconsider their decisions and the damage to the economy their duplicity is having an negative effect. On the Independence movement and could cost essential votes.

    The Greens then maliciously complain at Gov level. Again collude the unionists at Gov level and make complaint and vote again the SNP Gov. For decisions the Unionist/Green have taken at local level. Despite protest from the SNP group. The one ‘green’ voted in on a single interest pressure group, to illegally stop essential road building and wasting £Millions/Billions of public money. Colluding with the unionist group for office and remuneration. Renouncing the Green principles on every local issue.

    The Green Party, ignorant non gender balanced representatives, then vote at Gov level in the Holyrood Parliament to censor the SNP at Gov level for the outcome at local level caused by the ‘green’ local level decisions. Claiming to hold Gov to account for decisions taken at local level in local authorities by unionist/green coalition. Wasting £MillionS/Billions of public money on grotesque projects the majority does not want and cutting funding for essential services. Then illegitimately constantly complaining the SNP Scottish Gov doesn’t give enough funding. It does.

    The opposition of unionist/green coalition and collusion constantly calling for tax increases on an ever more hard pressed general public. When the local authorities have been more than adequately funded by central Gov for essential services but the unionist green coalition have wasted it on the grotesque unpopular projects. Lying to the electorate and general public.

    The helicopters are increasingly flying past. With increased activity. The Oil & Gas sector must be improving. Vote for SNP/Independence (with regard to the abuse manipulating electoral system, which the electorate do not understand. Get the word out). Let any increased revenues and benefit be used and well managed and well spent for the best benefit. Independence is coming. Despite May’s increasingly hysterical rhetoric and absolute nonsense. A failure at the Home Office. An even bigger failure in Gov. A total parasite. An insult to people’s intelligence. Nicola (Alex) and Co will deal with it, effectively.

    Sorry about the length but in desperate times things must be discussed.

  244. Ken500 says:

    Teresa May contributing to her constitutional downfall by refusing to listen. A characteristic of her political career. Not listening and blaming other people. A typical Unionist politician. Resulting in the illegal deaths and maiming of millions of vulnerable people. The waste of £Trns of public money. The defrauding and misuse of public money. So May and her greedy corrupt associates can line their pockets with embezzled public money. They really are despicable.

    Alex – Folk are missing you. Folk were missing you at the Conference. Alex and Co. You are fit for May and the lying Tory/Unionists at Westminster. Tory/Unionists contemptible liars who haven’t got a clue.

  245. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “if you could try to mask your contempt for those many people who don’t particularly like imposed austerity or the large influx of cheap labour”

    The EU didn’t impose austerity on Britain, the Tories did. And if you don’t like cheap labour, just wait till you see what happens to workers’ rights once the Tories are free of the constraints of European employment law.

  246. Ken500 says:

    @ Mr Robert Peffers 27 March 2017 at 11.20 am

    You have excelled yourself. Take a bow,

  247. Breeks says:

    May is stuck between a rock and a hard place. She cannot negotiate Brexit without knowing what the “Bre” in Brexit actually stands for; the UK as a single entity, or two component countries of the UK in open dispute. Negotiations can’t progress beyond introductory preambles without knowing the competency of the parties, and May lacks competence to speak for the whole UK.

    Perhaps, indeed it must be probable, that it has now occurred to May how cack-handed and arrogant her dealings with Scotland have been up to now, and the same is probably true for Europe. She now has the problem of silencing Scottish dissent, or capitulating to acknowledge Scotland has the right to speak for itself in negotiations between the EU, and the Bipartite Union of two sovereign countries which is the UK.

    She must surely know by now that the will of Westminster to exit Europe is emphatically trumped in Scotland by the expressed will to stay in Europe delivered by the voice of the sovereign people of Scotland.

    The massive irony is, that after all the Unionist shite and lies of the YES referendum in 2014, the UK Prime Minister is coming to Scotland and has to lay before us, the sovereign people of Scotland, the positive, persuasive, progressive arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK. And that is something no Unionist has been able to articulate at any stage in the white hot constitutional debate about Scotland’s future up to this point.

    The irony on top of that massive irony, is that Theresa May still isn’t here to talk about Scotland, she is motivated to come here to talk about Westminster’s authority regarding Europe. Get out of the way Scotland! Nice eh? Feel the respect.

    Unless Theresa May is willing to recognise the distinction between Scottish Sovereignty and Westminster Sovereignty, I rather suspect Ms May might save herself the price of her ticket.

    And if, or when, the UK Prime Minister has to recognise Scotland’s sovereign capacity to make its own separate peace with Europe, that puts Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon in joint negotiations with Europe as “equal” heads of State, and then a serious question arises about whether the Act of Union still formally exists at all.

    This is a time of meaty constitutional politics in the UK, and so far it augers well for Scotland.

  248. Ken500 says:

    There are reports, said to be by Westminster insiders – people in the know. That May is deliberately going to crash the UK/world economy. That was the plan of the arch Tories all along. She is going to walk out of any talks quite soon. Deliberately trash the world economy. So Tories and their associates Hedge Funds (like her husband) fund Tory Party. Can benefit (£Billions) from the crash and fall in the investment markets. Manipulating the Markets. The UK unionists have done this previously many times by manipulating and deceiving the electorate.

    They then walk away with the secretly acquired embezzled public fortune. Blaming everyone else and the world markets and economy. Then blame someone else when they have deliberately caused the crash. Citing ignorance. They arrogantly walk away with impunity with the evidence of their illegal activity and mismanagement hidden under the Official Secrets Act. So they can never be brought to account. They are dead before the truth is open up. There is still a controlled cover up.

    The attack on Westminster Bridge is being controlled and covered up by the Tories under a ‘D’ notice, which can’t even be discussed or Editors etc would be put in prison. To limit information getting out of the Home Office involvement with the attacker. Diversions are being put in place to cover up. To protect Teresa May, previous position at the Home Office and her involvement.

    The Home Secretary is responsibility for security. Teresa May’s career has been one of error and bad judgement and then blaming someone else. Another public official who loses their jobs. Teresa May’s intransigence. She who must be obeyed even when she is wrong. Similar Blair, Brown, Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg, Osbourne, Johnston and the rest of them. Davis, Brexiteers etc. Farague, Arron. Etc. The lot of them. Criminals at Westminster. Rees Moggs, Redwood, Hesletine, Too many to mention. Labour/LibDem etc. All crooked at the trough of privilege and criminal behaviour.

  249. Sinky says:

    On GERS and massive Hurricane Oil find, we should be reiterating message that Scotland is a net exporter, has a surplus of oil and gas and a GDP per capita higher than many EU members.

    These are facts that Yoons and pet food salesmen can’t dispute.

  250. heedtracker says:

    BBC 24 news all over Precious Precious my Precious bonds of UK, beeb gimp says evil Sturgeon wants to hold evil refs in late 2018, spring 2019 and PM Mayhem says not now. Which is pretty neat linguistic trick of tory beeb unionism in its Scotland region.

    All followed through with 3rd party non entity hysteric Kez interview, as both beeb gimp and Kez explore ways to block Scots democracy.

    Its some sight.

  251. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    I already read your teachings about the Darien venture and navigation laws in another of your posts elsewhere, and it was fascinating. I even went and read it out to someone else to show them that there are more complex interpretations of history out there worth looking at. Have to say that I liked your version much more than any others I’ve seen. You remind me for a moment of the History Master played by Graham Crowden in Lindsay Anderson’s ‘If’, when he is demonstrating the subjectivity of historical views, using the Great War as an example:

    “Right: Europe in the nineteenth century and the growth of Nationalism. In studying the nineteenth century one thing will be clear: that the growth of technology, telegraph, cheap newspapers, railways, transport, is matched by a failure of imagination, and a fatal inability to understand the meaning and consequences of all the levers, wires, and railways – climaxing in 1914 when the German Kaiser is told by his generals that he cannot stop the war he has started because it would spoil the railway timetables upon which victory depended.

    Or perhaps you fashionably and happily believe that it’s all a simple matter of evil dictators rather than whole populations of evil people like…ourselves? Do you disagree? Don’t you find this view of history facile?”

    However – please, PLEASE, don’t think that I swallow Westminster propaganda. I know you must feel a tad frustrated at me, but I merely don’t want to end up swallowing another sort of propaganda.


  252. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Rev

    Shut up with your good points. I suppose it’s better to accept the lesser evil when the availability of importable labour isn’t ever going to be sniffed at. England will just get its from the poorer commonwealth countries. Although I cannot in good conscience rule out the EU’s desires for our nation, I think I may be edging towards being behind the EU rather than on the fence.

    However, I think Labour may just have had something to do with austerity. Either way: Westminster. But as I said before, I’ll do my reading up on certain subjects before I comment on them once more.

    Oh, and cheers for hudding back on the temptation to call me a fuckin idiot. 😉

  253. Legerwood says:

    CH4 news discussing Scotland but no reps from SNP just Labour MP – Thornberry I think -and a UKIP guy – at least I think he was UKIP

    And they wonder why we want to leave!

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