Wings Over Scotland

One by one..

“England left me”. I can understand that pov. The England I see today is not the England I have known in my lifetime.

England is on the way to a true Nationalism. More and more people will eventually recognise that. Here in Scotland I have loved being a part of a movement that is inclusive and welcoming to all rather than the narrow blood and soil Nationalism we see over the border.

I believe that today there is some type of right wing March on in Scotland. I hope they get a “hot” reception from the public.

Who will save England from these maniacs wanting to make it the 51st state of the USA. Greed is good if they fail blame the poor and the immigrants it’s a fuckin disgrace.

The Labour Party had an open goal all they had to do was tap it in and they heaved it over the bar yet the membership is huge so we can only hope a true Labour Party emerges for England.

As the son of an English Mum and Scottish Dad with family everythere in the British Isles this is the England I have always known the only thing that’s changed is they now have a party and government who’s given them the freedom to express it more openly and loudly and it’s acceptable
and gathering pace in it’s bulldozering insularity
Today the Welsh Labour party are saying exactly the same things we are, and they know when Scotland goes they’re in deep trouble and don’t mind admitting it, bit different from Dugdale eh

Devolution for Scotland was never intended or wanted by the Unionist parties it was only the delay button on the remote , the pause, the haud oan the noo, the wait and see how long we can hold them back tactic

Westminster never worked nor did they want it too so I want my money back and my country, thems the choices, Pick one, Yes their only is one!

Yoan replies, fae Dumfries & Galloway folk ower in thoan ‘National’ [? 23rd Mairch], aboot thurr thochts noo oan Scoattish Independence, wis ah een-oappenurr. Fur guid, ah wid add.

Since Indy began in 2012, NO ONE from Better Together has spoken about the RIGHT to self-determination.

England would be NOTHING without that same right, yet it will go to any lengths to prevent Scots from exercising that self same right.

That’s what comes with thinking you’re an Empire, still. Trampling on the rights of other nations – it’s what the British Establishment has always done.

Old trampling habits die hard, I guess.

BBC = ‘Yooncil Telly”

I’m the daughter of an English Mum and Scots Dad and have an English Husband. I was born and raised in Leith – Bananay flats and now live in nowheresville/rural for work reasons.

All are for Indy – and now vote SNP after a lifetime of Labour voting letting them down.

Welcome Jackie 😀

Will Bummer(handjive)Broon and his ilk pay any attention to all the people who have seen the light? I doubt it very much, it doesn’t fit with their idea of what we are, serfs tugging the lock to our betters, He raided our pensions, sold off our gold reserve at a knock down price and let the banks off with embezzlement.I remember him telling us that ” the banks don’t need regulation self regulation works very well” All this from a man who tells us we are not fit to run our own country.
Why are they still turning him out to lecture us and expecting us to listen?

Maybe a bit of O/T, but hearing Jackie refer to Edinburgh increasingly feeling more like an European Capital (which I believe it truly is)made me think of our other European city, namely Glasgow European City of Culture (1990). Now I regard Glasgow as a magnificent city in many ways similar to Edinburgh (and of course, other Scottish cities)but different and this was most definitely showcased during 1990 and beyond. It has a capacity to showcase art, culture, music, pop music, media, theatre, opera and cinema in a ways Edinburgh cannot due to the many dedicated venues and dedicated artists. However, I wonder, whether or not the city’s Labour run council would regard this as a positive and now treats Glasgow as a parochial backwater, particularly in light of what may or not become of brexit. I have always thought that if Scotland had the ability to integrate fully with Europe and free of any constraints from WM, then all of Scotland’s cities would have a feel of an European city and perhaps see the birth of a new Scottish Enlightenment. Hope over Fear!

We are living in a Union where we have the same wage depreciation as Greece and yet every other country in the EU has its workers wages increasing.
Those same workers are looking at later retirement up to 70 years of age with no guarantee the State pension will be sufficient to keep them. Yet Unionists try to force us down this road for what ?
Tradition?, Queen and country.? Democracy? Entitlement ? All the buzz words of Empire.

There is no reasonable excuse to accept this state of affairs. Everything won since the Enlightenment will be eroded away like rain on sugar.

We , who look for independence are trying to maintain a modern democratic future whilst across the border they are hankering for an age of Imperial glory long since departed. They want to be important again instead of being an equal partner in families of nations. We must win this time.

What is obviously missing from the collective memory regarding the glory days of empire, is the poverty, abject poverty, of the vast majority of the people, particularly in the cities. The workshop of the world it certainly was in the real sense, poverty wages and long hours. Sounds kind of familiar.

There was a medical report provided for the military, in 1916, which highlighted the poor physical condition of the population in comparison to Commonwealth contingents sent to Europe during the First World War. In other words, the population was not capable of providing the huge numbers of men required to fight.
The report by the way, was the genesis for the welfare state.

Wealth was, then as now, concentrated within the top 1%, dismantling the welfare state just takes everybody back to the good old day’s, just not for us.

O/T but is about independence

Report in online Daily Telegraph tonight about Senior civil servant and ministers planning strategy really saving the Union

link to archive.is

According to the article Ms Sturgeon’so demand for a second referendum was a surprise and caught them off guard. Aye right. But they have been holding talks with business leaders etc under the radar.

Very much worth a read.

Welcome aboard Jackie!

I am minded to think how often in life when people have made a change do they look back and say, I wished I had never done that? Seldom, things change and change for the better!

How often in life have people thought, I wish I’d stayed with x or y, seldom, there were underlying reason you leave something behind, don’t look back!

In all respects, the uk is looking back!

link to caltonjock.com

The Telegraph article is well worth a read – so are some of the comments, with these getting the most support:-

If this is true then it’s a bad mistake. Tell Sturgeon there will be no referendum for at least 5 years and to shut up and go away. This destructive harridan has been allowed to cause far too much trouble over the last few years. Concentrate on getting the best deal for the whole UK, not letting the minority SNP, with its falling poll numbers, influence in any way what Westminster does.

_

What we are seeing is yet another of the appalling Blair’s stupid, cowardly decisions having terrible unintended consequences years after the event.
_

Do not cow-tow any longer to the SNP. I believe that many Scots are as appalled by SNP cynicism and duplicity as people in the rest of the country. The Brexit talks must go ahead with a robust agenda aimed at the securing the best deal for the UK. There should be no exceptional clauses for Scotland. After the deal, Scotland may choose to hold a second referendum. If that arises, all terms should be dictated by Westminster (date, wording of the referendum, etc). A decision to leave – I believe unlikely – will entail the end of RN shipbuilding in Scotland and the instant removal of any British agencies located there. Frankly, the SNP is a parasite organisation in the UK: constantly demanding more subsidies and powers while always seeking to undermine the wider country. Let it be known to the SNP that enough is enough. If Scotland leaves the Union it will almost certainly be in the same position as it was when it acceded – close to bankruptcy. The best bet would be for PM May to call an election – Ruth Davidson could lead the Scottish Tories towards making serious inroads into the SNP (a sort of reverse referendum on how Scots really feel).

_

This is nonsense. I am Scottish. There is no way the SNP will come anywhere near winning a 2nd referendum. We are not sucicidally stupid!

_

If more powers are to be devolved to Scotland, then this should only be alongside withdrawal of the subsidies England passes to Scotland via the Barnett formula and other “bungs”. It is a national disgrace that England’s largesse allows, for example, Scottish students to pay no tuition fees at Scottish universities whilst English students have to pay up when studying there. Only ministers and their civil servants could have come up with such a ludicrously unfair arrangement.

Such a charming bunch of neighbours we have…is there not some way we could help them alleviate their suffering? 😉

Ah agree Robert JS, the usual suspects are who they are negotiating with, like mini private ‘nissan’ deals. Expect a deluge of business/farming/fishing klaxon like warnings from the go get…its gonnae be rough sailing.

Welcome Jackie = )

And well done again Phantom Power Films, keep it up!

Though I have to say, there is ALOT more to the benefits to and neccessity for Scotland being Independent than Scotland being pulled out of the EU or ‘England leaving us’. Though I appreciate for some folk that was the last straw.

I have always seen Edinburgh as an International city, thanks in large part to our university. Being European is in our city’s very stones and weaves through the words we have used for hundreds of years.

I hope that in time you will see Scotland’s Independence not just as a better choice, but as a brilliant uplifting choice = )

Just had a wee win on the pub bandit and thinking about nipping down to England to buy a town or two

Long term investment of course, bound to come back one day

Is it too soon for an exit poll at the border?

Hardly any one reads the Telegraph in the UK. It is just a vehicle for the Barclay Bros to push their right wing agenda The non Dom tax evaders who should be put in jail for crimes against humanity, Arch spiteful malicious Tories who are starving people to death all over the world. They plan to kill even more coming out of the EU so the ‘psycho bastards’ and their associates can continue to tax evade and ruin the world economy. The only thing worse than their greed is their ignorance. They will not get away with it. They will be gone through the courts and the Ballot box.

The majority in the UK are quite content for Scotland to be Independent with EU membership. For England and Wales to be Independent in Europe. That is the majority wishes any Gov will not defy the people’s will. Or they will be swept aside. The Tories not elected in Scotland have already lost Scotland £Billions with their lies and mismanagement. They will not get away with it. Those days are long gone.

The Westmster Unionists have done nothing but ruin the Scottish/UK and the world economy since 1928. Westminster Unionists have lied and ruined the Scottish economy since 1928. Illegally hiding their lies and deceit under the Official Secrets Act. They have taken the UK into illegal wars. They have ruined people lives. Illegally killed and maimed innocent people. They are still doing it today. They are the biggest, bunch of lazy lying, evil, greedy criminals that have ever been put on the face of the earth.

They are finished. Thry ruined the Scottish economy with their lies and cheating promises. Got the UK/world into £Trns of debt. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. All to line themselves and their associates greedy pockets. Including the Barclay Bros. Enough is never enough for these greedy, low life. Immoral criminals. They think they are above the Law. They are not even UK citizens. Tax evading Non Dom MSM crooks bribing public officials and hacking phones. Menacing people and telling lies. They make the Law and break the Law. They think they will continually get away with it.

The Scottish Economy is once again being devastated by criminal, illegal politicians for whom the majority in Scotland did not vote. Most of them should be in jail. They are disgusting and despised. They think they will get away with it again. They won’t . The Tories will not survive and neither will the corrupt Union. They can clear off. Enemies of the people. Cruel, lazy and unkind, They starve innocent people to death. Total criminals. The majority wants rid of them. The majority can’t stand the sight of them. They make people sick and millions of innocent people die because of them. They lack any humility or humanity.

The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. They cheated, lied and committed electoral fraud to win a Referendum. They cheated, lied and committed electoral to win an Election. They cheated, lied and committed electoral fraud to win another Referendum.

The Tories will not cheat, lie and commit electoral fraud to win another Referendum. They have been found out and they will be gone before too long. They have ruined the Scottish economy since 1928 and before. Tried to destroy the world economy even more. That will not be happening any more.

The Tory intransigence has lost Scotland £Billions of Oil revenues since 2010. Lost 120,00 jobs. Affecting over 360,000 people. Scotland could have had nearly full employment. Instead has lost £25Billion of tax receipts + £25Billion more of imported Oil & Gas. £50Billion. £10Billion+ a year because of Tory rule. Scotland has to pay £1Billion for Trident. Child poverty in Scotland could be eradicated if squint Trident was scrapped. It uscdestroying the Scottish economy with over 6 rotting contaminated hulks at Rosyth. Ruining the Clyde and the Glasgow economy because of it. A threat to Scotland secrurity and survival. A leaking hulk of contamination all over Scotland’s countryside.

Scotland could save £Billions, £1Billion on a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink or minimum pricing. Making people healthier. The unionists opposed it. Scotland loses £3Billion+ a year in tax evasion because of the Tory policies of which Scotland does not vote.

It would not be surprising if under the secrecy of the Ballot, while not being scrutinised, corrupt unionist politicians would vote for Independence. Incorredible liars. The majority can’t stand the sight of them and support them even less. Elected under a system that is a mockery of democracy. A revolving door of ignorance. 3rd rate useless rejects getting elected time and time again. The voters can’t get rid of them.

Under an electoral system the majority of voters do not even understand. People have to vote for people/parties they can’t stand to try to get the candidate/Party they support elected,A travesty of Democracy and choice. Many voters do not understand it at all. It puts people off of voting. They think it is a waste of time. Along with the political process.

Any ‘so called’ deficit is Westminster unionist cheating policies and intransigence. Illegal wars and banking fraud. Scotland would be in £Billions of total credit with an Oil fund without Westminster unionists illegally taking £Billions from Scotland and wasting it. Keeping it hidden under the Official Secrets Act, The nasty, dirty criminals. £Billions wasted on these policies which could have been better spent. Investing in the economy.

The Westminster unionists have destroyed the world economy and had the cheek and disgusting nerve to blame the EU and Europe for their and the US failures in policies. Defence/Foreign policies and not sorting out the situation in the Middle East. Illegal wars killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Causing the worse migration crisis since 11WW. Banking fraud/illegal tax evasion. Bringing down the world economy.

Now the Westminster unionist master criminals want to take down the world economy again. So they and their associates can continue to tax evade and embezzle £Trns of public money. Borrowing and spending £Billions more of illegal money. On illegal Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and squit Trident. When there are safer, cheaper more credible alternatives.

Not supporting essential services. Illegally starving innocent vulnerable people to death. They will not get away with it. They are owe the EU £Billions in unpaid debts. The EU/ Europeans countries are having to spent £Trns sorting out the UK/US stinking illegal mess in the Europe, the Middle East and the world. They will not get away with it.

Scotland will be Independent in the EU and the world will be a better place for it. Without the Westminster unionist intransigence and evil ignorance and arrogance. Making the UK one of the most unequal places in the world with the biggest debt. The Westminster incompetent, ignorant lemming are once again going to throw thenselves over a cliff. Scotland is staying in the EU along with their friends and neighbours and there is nothing the disgusting, immoral unelected in Scotland, unionist politicans can do about. Or stop it.

Good bye and good riddance stinking Westminster rotten to the core of corruption, lies, fraud and unelected privilege. Betraying democracy, equality and any sense fairness. Corrupt to the core because they and their associates do not want to pay their fair share and illegally get away with it. Who holds them to account the people. They would be better to reconsider.

The only one’s responsible for international terrorism and crime are the Westminster criminal unionists and their lying criminal sychophanic Press. Peddling out their lies. The ‘psycho bastards’ at Westminster. Their criminal actions cause the crime. They are above the Law. They make the Law and break the Law, International Law. An illegal Police State. The criminal justice system does not hold them to account.

The English

link to theneweuropean.co.uk

O/T

So the world cup qualifying game between Scotland and Slovenia will be shown on Sky thus denying thousands of Scots from watching their national team. But as way of compensation over on “STV“ they will be able to view the England v Lithuania game for free. Can you imagine the reaction in the south if the position was reversed.
Surely the England game would be far more lucrative for Sky to show with its billions available than the Scotland one so what is going on. I simply cannot imagining this happening in any other country and it enrages me.
There has been a dumbing down on television over the years of anything Scottish whether it be traditional music ,dance or our national football coverage.
I don`t think I need to spell out what has and is going on.

The Editorial from The Observer on triggering Article 50 is a good read too.

Have not got time to say more

link to archive.is

Welcome to the yes movement Jackie.

Great film from Phantom just one wee suggestion guys please drop the music from the background when folks are talking.

It might be a technical wonder but it can make it hard for those who cannot hear very well to pick out the dialogue over the music.

On a side note i see wannabe King Dan has been tweeting about how “nationalism is an infantile disease,it is the measles of mankind” in a rip off of Einsteins speech about the nazis.

link to twitter.com

These English elite are so far up their own backside they can not even see that they portrait the very symptoms of the kind of nationalism Einstein abhorred.

Hey Snow Einstein was a Jew you know and was a lot smarter than you will ever be,you disgust me using his words to back up your British nazi Empire bullshit.

Great to see the personal stories of those that have made the journey from No to Yes and I really enjoy all of them.

Well how about making the journey from yes to YES?

Despite my total commitment to gaining our Independence for years now I have not been vocal enough with any individual. Well that has now changed and I wear my heart on my sleeve.

I work internationally and with all nationalities many are English of course so rather than “rock the boat” I was more likely to keep stum. My livelyhood depended on it after all.

Now though no more, just in the last two days I have “educated” two Englishmen as to the reason for my support for Independence.

It started with one guy saying “only 4 days until Brexit” he was excited about it. I said “only 3 days until May gets handed Scotland’s demand for Independence”. Well then the shit kicked off too wee, too poor, too stupid! I had him cowering within 5 minutes.

“Do you know how many Tory Mp’s Scotland has elected in the last 20 years? 1997 NONE! since then just one Tory MP to represent Scotland.”

His response was to tell me that “we” have too many immigrants.

I said “well looks like you plan to get rid of them so rejoice. But tell me who is going to mop your hospital floors or make your sandwiches. What of the EU brain surgeons do you want rid of them too?”

It wasn’t a very good discussion to be honest and his ignorance was astounding all gathered from the BBC or the Daily Mail no doubt.

The second guy just last night was a London voting remainer and our discussion was a bit more pleasent but his ignorance was as bad as the first guys.

My point? I am no longer afraid to speak out, no matter who I might have to talk to. I intend to let everyone know that I support an Independent Scotland and that I’ll tell them why.

No more hiding in the corner and keeping your views to yourself.

Be YES and PROUD get the message out cause no one else will!

The Tory Westminster criminals are now blaming Google for own their total incompetent. Google the tax evading multinational who do not pay their fair share. Supported by unionist tax evading policies. The criminal Tory/Unionist now want to ban free speech even more in the criminal surveillance Police State the Westminster crooks have created. Criminalising innocent people. While the crooks in Westminster get away with their crimes and break the Law at every opportunity with impunity. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The Westminster unionist muck up the Scottish economy and think it’s funny. Folk see them laughing, joking and lying about in the Westminster chamber.

OT perhaps but my German neighbors have just sold their house and are returning ‘home’ sickened by the threat they feel living in the UK, they are only too happy to take the hit changing their pounds to euro’s to get the hell out. The people who have bought it are an English family, sickened by the threat of living in the UK…………… Welcome I say

No Mr Peffers, you are not alone in that observation.

Not by a long chalk!

The majority in England/Wales want to stay in the EU. They were deceived, cheated and lied to by right wing/unionist criminals to vote to leave the EU. Against all reasonable argument. Wales has the least amount of migration and receives the highest level of EU support. Yet a higher majority in Wales voted for Brexit. 56%? The bulk of the Westminster illegally borrowing goes to support London S/E. It is becoming perfectly clear, what a disaster Brexit will be. May could be gone within two years. The muck up will be increasingly obvious. The warnings will start to be realised. Then what will they do? The Tories are receiving increased criticism for their deviant, undemocratic policies.

A GE will come and the Tories could be voted out. Imagine the mess then. Another lot of unionist incompetent ignoramouses will be in Westminster. To cause even more chaos. Hopefully Scotland will be out of undemocratic unfair mess by then. Making it’s own way within the EU equal partnership of support. The only way to throw off the dead wood of Westminster policies and successfully improve the Scottish economy

Just seen this on Twitter….

link to sciencealert.com

Don’t know about you, but my first instinct is how do we get a delegation of Scottish Engineers over to Germany to see what we can learn and initiatives we can share. European nations trying to innovate creatively and working together and re-purposing redundant facilities.

Contrast this with the UK’s Hinckley Point, flying in the face of conventional wisdom, underwritten by dodgy dealing under the counter with the Chinese, and paying no heed to the issue of nuclear waste. A regressive development which I simply wish wasn’t happening. I can learn all I need to know about Nuclear energy from Fukushima and Chernobyl.

@Legerwood 9:55
That is a good article. What I find really interesting is the BTL comments. There seems to be an increasingly vocal opinion that Brexit is an act of reckless self harm which requires a better PM and government than Theresa May and the Brexit Allstars to sort out and salvage something short of total disaster. There still are the shrill Britnats calling Brexit a great opportunity, but fewer of them. They have always sounded thoroughly unconvincing, but now they sound increasingly unconvinced. A bit like a rude child swearing in decent company; a moments pause, then the adult conversation carries on.

Sadly it is all too little, too late. This week will see ScotRef formally happening, and Article 50 is triggered. I rather suspect newspaper headlines over the next couple of weeks might be worth saving for posterity, not so very unlike the buoyant optimism in the final pictures of SS Titanic sailing over the horizon.

@jomry 11:19pm

I second jomry’s comments about Prof J Robertson.

@ Robert Peffers – I agree with you Robert. The UK seems to be able to cope with other peoples’ suffering with equanimity. Specially when it is caused by our bombs.

However, the UK media are racked with horror if someone is motivated to retaliate. How was he radicalised? Obviously it was the fault of Google, Facebook and Twitter.

Nothing to do with votes in Westminster to bomb the Middle East.

@Packhorse Pete says: 26 March, 2017 at 11:12 am

link to archive.is

“Thanks for that- a stunning indictment of the lunatics and their charge over the Brexit cliff.”

“lunatics”?
Eh!
hey! Packhorse Pete, that’s a very strange way to spell, “Lemmings”.

Corbyn is useless. Along with the rest of them. Anyone who is interested can e-mail him to point out the degression and misinformation Fake News Lies.

Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Have caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. The unionist criminal liars killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Ruining the world economy. They should be put in jail for what they have done. The only way for closure. So that no one tries it again.

Best wishes to Prof Robertson. Sad news.

Well done. Maybe someone can take up the baton.

Just came across this on the excellent Facebook page Over 60s for Scottish Indy. A great first blog about a lot of the stuff that bothers most of us about Scotland’s present situation.

Sorry if it’s been linked before.
link to facebook.com

guardian editorial

It fell last week to Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, to throw a cold bucket of reality over the ultra-hard Brexiters’ fantasies. The effect was chilling. Barnier made clear May’s “no deal” option was no option at all. He warned of queues of lorries at Dover, chaos for ordinary citizens and custom controls on trade from day one of the UK’s withdrawal. Barnier also made plain the EU would not even begin to talk about a post-Brexit trade deal until Britain agrees to cough up the estimated £50bn Brussels says it owes in prior commitments. The figure is disputed. But the principle is not. Britain faces a hugely costly settling of accounts, whatever parti pris barristers may advise. For good measure, Barnier insisted the Irish border conundrum and citizens’ rights must be resolved before other Brexit matters can be discussed.

brexit negotiations will take 2 hrs, not 2 years,
no trade deal. uk will have no choice but to leave this autumn

the section 30 will be delayed by treeza, and nicola will not hold indyref2 until it is agreed. good

support for indyref2 and yes are directly proportional to how bad brexit will be. if it is shown by polls support consistently above 50%, the unionists will be reduced to arguing about our mandate to hold indyref2. waiting to see the outcome of the negs will be ancient news by then.

I think the unionists will continue block us on this mandate issue, what choice will they have? with yes over 50% why would they sign the section 30

I foresee holyrood being dissolved and a new election in spring 2018 with a manifesto specifically about indyref2 and the threat of udi if the section 30 isnt signed.

an official offer by the eu on an indy scotland being granted automatic and immediate EEA membership would be welcome

Dan Huil says:
26 March, 2017 at 11:35 am

@jomry 11:19pm

I second jomry’s comments about Prof J Robertson.

me too

@Robert Peffers

I had read about the coalition (us) air strikes killing hundreds of civilians in Mosul from Sputnik the Russian news agency,

like all news agencies they have an agenda, I take what they say and then check their facts,

this is from the site `Iraq Body Count`,

link to iraqbodycount.org

Thursday 23 March: 354 killed
Mosul: 230 by coalition air strikes; 108 in booby-trapped houses; 3 by mortar shelling; 1 by rocket; 3 women executed; 1 by IED.
Hawija: 5 by IED.
Sinjar: 1 journalist in clashes.
Baghdad: 1 by gunfire.

Wednesday 22 March: 71 killed
Mosul: 44 by coalition air strikes; 19 by shelling.
Ramadi: 6 by government air strikes.
Baghdad: 2 by IEDs.

Tuesday 21 March: 48 killed
Mosul: 31 by coalition air strikes; 8 by shelling; 3 bodies.
Hamrin: 5 by IED.
Baghdad: 1 by IED.

Saturday 25 March: 219 killed.
Mosul: 197 executed in various locations; 9 killed by shelling; 4 by IED.
Amirli: 7 in clashes.
Baghdad: 1 by IED.
Kirkuk: 1 by gunfire.

Documented civilian deaths from violence
172,514 – 192,550

nearly 200,000 civilians who have had their life violently cut short by an illegal war sanctioned with a vote by Members of Parliament in Westminster,

Brutish values.

Listening to BBC r4 endless Westminster attack coverage today, watched David Lidington flounder on Ligger Neil’s vote Leave love the tories Sunday Politics show, on Westminster security, it looks awful.

Just hope to god Faslane security is at least awake but its just another example of why Westminster was not stupid enough to store their nuke weapons anywhere near them.

link to twitter.com

He likes the Scottish western isles but he looked really really shaky on Wesminster security, with the Ligger doing his head master about to thrash you thing.

re;Heedtracker@1.49

Did you see the article in the National yesterday about staff striking at Faslane? Planned overtime ban and on call ban, up until June. Pretty much every area of operations, lovely eh. Fcks sake.

Apparently, and I didn’t know this, the ‘royal navy’s ENTIRE subs fleet is to based at Faslane from 2020’. Oh aye.

We have to get out of this dangerous union, before it’s too late.

Will check in later, looks like from some comments, that the yoons are plotting against Scotland, big time, again. It won’t just be businesses they are briefing in these islands either.

UKIP is going ape because Douglas Carwell is now standing as an Independent. He should stand down and stand for re- election.

Farague/UKIP will lose £Millions of Westminster legitimate support for elected Political Parties. UKIP will loses £Millions of public money that Farague uses to illegally fund the Party and an extravagant, affluent lifestyle. Living in a London mansion with a French woman who is also being investigated. A total scam. Farague is an alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor bad decisions without proper ‘total abstinence’ rehab counselling.

UKIP is finished anyway. The EU is checking up on €Million of public money Farague claimed illegally to fund the Party. and lead an extravagant, afflent lifecstyle. Farague is a crook who has been illegally claiming public to fund UKIP and not put in accounts or receipts. Arron illegally launders the (public) funds through his offshore accounts. Then uses them as ‘donations’ to fund the Party, Arron is the bag man. Nothing but a bunch of total crooks illegally embezzling public money for years and protected by the Tory grandee. A an illegal total scam.

Artyhetty says:
26 March, 2017 at 2:14 pm
re;Heedtracker@1.49

Did you see the article in the National yesterday about staff striking at Faslane? Planned overtime ban and on call ban, up until June. Pretty much every area of operations, lovely eh. Fcks sake.

It is really worrying. Its like they still don’t get what jihad suicide terrorism actually means, with all rational security processes based on everything but. And its also why they stash their nuke bombs as far from London as humanly possible. That’s the real horror.

Ken 500

You have heard of defamation?

You want WoSc to be inveagled in your claims?

what will gain us independence is the opportunity indyref2 brings to the reverse the inevitable and disasterous effects that the uk will experience by withdrawing from the single market.

both eea and eu membership offer access to the single market, EEA is just easier to sell, satisfies the greatest number of voters and easier to get an prior agreement from the eu for an indy scotland to automatically and immediately gain access to the eea on the day we vote yes

@Lenny Hartley 2.55

Don’t think anyone turned up, I’ve just searched the BBC website and there’s no news of any demo.

Oh!?

schrodingers cat @ 16:03:

EEA is just easier to sell, satisfies the greatest number of voters

While I agree with the rest of your posting, I don’t agree (surprise, surprise! =grin=) with your EEA hobbyhorse, which you have taken far beyond the SG’s compromise offer to stay in the UK that is now a virtual dead duck. You have no evidence for the presumption that it is a winning strategy for something as different as ScotRef.

There’s no reason that “little Scotlander” EU-haters will be any more willing to agree to EU-lite, for which they have to shell-out just as much as for full EU membership, while having none of the advantages, such as a seat at the top table influencing decisions. (Which is real sovereignity in action.)

Equally, there’s no evidence that all those No-to-Yes converts like Jackie here (a warm welcome!) are going to be convinced by an inadequate half-way house.

Your proposition for EEA seems to be based on nothing more than a presumption of some electoral advantage, not on any obvious principle. The calculation could just as easily go the other way, backfire by satisfying no-one.

I believe the SG’s view is an admirably principled one. Fiona Hyslop, when challenged during last Tuesday’s debate, replied:

The Scottish National Party’s position and the position of the Scottish Government is as it has been for some time: EU membership. That is what we are pursuing.

As part of the significant majority who voted Remain in the EUref, I want to retain my EU citizenship, and protect that of my kids. No more, no less.

There’s no reason that “little Scotlander” EU-haters will be any more willing to agree to EU-lite, for which they have to shell-out just as much as for full EU membership, while having none of the advantages, such as a seat at the top table influencing decisions. (Which is real sovereignity in action.)
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except that this norway type solution was favoured by farage etal during euref. and not all 38% of leavers are “little Scotlander” EU-haters, it is those who arent that this option is targeting.
also, the damage caused by leaving is as yet to happen, when it does,logically, support for leaving the single market will diminish
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Equally, there’s no evidence that all those No-to-Yes converts like Jackie here (a warm welcome!) are going to be convinced by an inadequate half-way house.
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I dont want to leave the eu, but it will happen, eea is nothing more than redressing the immediate issue of access to the single market in the short term, a holding pen, I fully expect that one indy, the snp will move toward greater eu integration, but rejoining under article 49 could take time, securing single market access is a sensible option
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Your proposition for EEA seems to be based on nothing more than a presumption of some electoral advantage, not on any obvious principle. The calculation could just as easily go the other way, backfire by satisfying no-one.
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last poll by the rev was 27% eea and 48% eu membership, access to the single market is supported by both
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I believe the SG’s view is an admirably principled one. Fiona Hyslop, when challenged during last Tuesday’s debate, replied:

The Scottish National Party’s position and the position of the Scottish Government is as it has been for some time: EU membership. That is what we are pursuing.
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the above senario doesnt contradict this position
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As part of the significant majority who voted Remain in the EUref, I want to retain my EU citizenship, and protect that of my kids. No more, no less.
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I voted remain too, but we are leaving, This is simply the first step back to eu membership which I hope after indyref2 will be as a full eu member c/w the euro.

but, we need to win indyref2 first

@heedtracker says: 26 March, 2017 at 1:49 pm:

“He likes the Scottish western isles but he looked really really shaky on Wesminster security, with the Ligger doing his head master about to thrash you thing.”

Tell you a wee story about the security at Rosyth for the very first Nuclear Powered submarine – HMS Dreadnought.

I was, at that time, working in, “Yard Services”, the dockyard department that did the dockyard maintenance and installations. It was dangerous and dirty work in all sorts of weather – but the pay was very, very good. I clung to that job as long as I could before being forced to moved into the Sonar, Radio & Radar Department and ultimately into the RADIAC. (But I digress).

I usually got handed all kinds of new work that no one had ever done before. I thus ended up having to work out, design and install whatever special supplies and equipment in the electrics/security/electro-mechanical line for the new submarine being docked.

Now not many in the dockyard knew that there are underground tunnels for all sorts of supplies like salt & fresh water, compressed air, high pressure steam and so on and these even go under the deep dry docks and inside the caissons that are the dry-dock gates. I had worked in most of them as well as on top of the big cranes and on top of most buildings.

So the first week after the Dreadnought was docked for the first time I was working on a fault in a deep tunnel under the dock the boat was docked in. Meanwhile the Civilian Admiralty Police, Naval, Red Cap, Police, Dog & dog handlers, Marines and the SBS, (Special Boat Squadron), were involved in a big security exercise.

This involved the SBS playing the part of enemy agents attempting to gain access to the Submarine in the dock.

Just by chance I popped up out of a cable tunnel well outside the security fence and frightened the life out of a couple of SBS men who were attempting to evade capture by some MOD Police with Guard Dogs & dog handlers.

One SBS guy, after telling me I’d frightened the shit out of him, said, “Shoosh! We’re supposed to finding a way into the compound.

I said, “No problem I’ve just come from in there”. He said,”How did you get out without having to show a pass at the gate”? I said – “If you promise not to tell them how you discovered it, I’ll show you”.

Far as I know, to this day no one yet knows how a group of SBS guys managed to evade the hoards of service and civilian security guards and gain access to the nuclear powered submarine.

No one had thought to expect them to pop out behind the ones so intently watching the security fences from the inside looking out. A bit like the Panto, “He’s behind you”, sort of thing.

My 2p worth….

Assuming a yes vote 3-6 months prior to Brexit then there’s three choices for the EU :

1) You’re in the EU now. This doesn’t work & will cause damage to everyone really. Reasons being that we’d still be in the UK but also the EU without having negotiated/agreed anything with Westminster/Brussels. Nobody would have a clue WTH was going on;

2) You’re out of the EU & have to reapply – although acceptance would be pretty much automatic as we’re 100% compliant with EU regs and have a more pro-EU population than Spain 😉 This is unlikely as its akin to shooting yourself in both feet – Scotland is PRO-EU by a large margin in all areas;

3) You’re in the EEA automatically. We expect you to decide whether you wish to join the EU or remain in the EEA within three years of independence.

I rather suspect 3) will be the EU’s preferred solution. I suspect that’s what ScotGov want too. This will be the “holding solution” for Scotland which people refer to.

Instant EU membership while exiting rUK while they’re exiting the EU doesn’t sound like it’d fly for simple negotiating reasons.

Immediate EEA membership preserves EU rights while the gordian knots are severed….

I don’t believe that “more and more people are coming round to the conclusion that the latter [EEA rather than EFTA] is best suited to Scotland’s needs”, as Lenny postulates. It’s just an assertion by proponents of EEA based on a belief that it might just possibly be a winning strategy for ScotRef.

You see, on a more general view, I believe that people are getting sick of politics by focus group or poll result. Blowing with the wind wherever it may lead. Ruth Davidson, for example, was most popular when she gave the impression that she was speaking from forcible conviction, agree with her or not. (And her own screeching U-turns over Brexit under the orders of her London masters and also on “mandate” for ScotRef have done her credibility much damage).

Nicola, much to her credit as that of her predecessor, has taken a principled stand. She has made it crystal clear that she believes in an inclusive Scotland, which is certainly not going to appeal to that supposedly “Yes-Leaver” wummin on the BBC recently who claimed she will vote No “because of immigration”. Because of the EUref, such people have swallowed the BritNat anti-EU line and will be hard to get back, if they really ever were yessers in the first place (which may be doubted, at least for some).

I don’t give a damn about focus groups (who gave us “cereal woman”) or polls supposedly showing this or that. If Nicola & Co. stick to their guns out of principle, as they show every sign of doing, I believe they can – and will – win the respect of most of those who have varying degrees of sympathy for the EU. On the simple proposition that it offers the least turbulence in very turbulent times, and we can always review the situation later as an independent country once we have found our feet.

Furthermore, we can only expect to get the trading security of, and the positive backing from, the EU if they can see that full membership is our definite aim. They are going to risk nothing for us if we are not fully committed to them. Why should they?

No s-cat, arguing for EEA membership as an end goal is NOT equivalent to aiming for full EU membership, as you seem to be suggesting. Fiona Hislop made that end goal quite clear. If your thinking was correct, and the intention is somehow to win ScotRef on a weaker platform, why would she (in your terms) undermine her own case?

I most emphatically do not accept as a given, as you seem to do, the BritNat premise that Scotland will be “out of the EU regardless”, at least not if Nicola’s timing is followed. If things pan out differently, then we may have to re-evaluate strategies as circumstances permit, but why on earth give ground before then? All it does is give the Unionists ammunition – as people like you are certainly doing – that our aims are confused and even duplicitous.

No agreement in Northern Ireland?

schrodingers cat @ 18:18:

Instant EU membership while exiting rUK while they’re exiting the EU doesn’t sound like it’d fly for simple negotiating reasons.

Superficially, yes. But why does Nicola want to do it that way, then?

Because it changes the nature of the negotiations, that’s why.

Firstly, it pulls away a plank from the London Brexiteers, who suddenly can’t bank on Scotland’s precious resources.

Secondly, and more importantly, it gives the EU27 side the opportunity to offer an open door to us. Not as the “continuing member”, of course, but via the “holding pen” option. Not via another organisation such as EEA, but as a continuing de-facto member until separate negotiations take place, after full independence, of the precise nature of our new de jure membership as an independent state with existing aquis.

If the EU can do something far more special and difficult for the East Germans, they can certainly do something for us. Provided we give them good reason to.

Which is not at all the same thing as “leaving” as the BritNats crudely and arrogantly mean it.

Lol i see the EU is lokkng for a transparent approach to Brexit talks.
That’ll please the tories no end.

@Lenny Hartley says: 26 March, 2017 at 4:59 pm:

“Robert J Sutherland re EU v EFTA and Customs Union
more and more people are coming round to the conclusion that the latter is best suited to Scotland’s needs.”

And your hard evidence for such a claim is …. What exactly?

It seems to have escaped your notice that before Scotland, and/or Scottish/EU citizens can be allowed to have a choice of what other organisation the people of Scotland wish to join, then the people of Scotland, who are also presently citizens of the EU and the UK, must first of all be outside the EU and to have ended the United Kingdom and thus be looking in from outside any other organisation which may, or may not, be prepared to accept them as members.

Mike cassidy @ 10.19

That quote from the civil sycophant was truly boak inducing!

schrodingers cat @ 18:35:

I’m arguing for EEA membership as a holding position

That’s fine, in which case let’s wait and see on that one. Maybe it will be needed in the eventuality, but let’s not lose sight of the overall objective nor fool ourselves into thinking that EEA is some kind of panacea to win Scotref.

Not my fault, or problem, that you find this all too confusing, If this option is giving ground and duplicitous, perhaps you should direct your comments to Nicola since EEA was her compromise offer to treeza

Tut, that was beneath you. It’s the general population’s impression that matters, not little old mine.

What you keep refusing to recognise is that the offer of EEA was strictly conditional on Treeza accepting that offer, in return for Scotland remaining in the UK. Nothing more.

So has that offer been accepted or not?

@Vestas says: 26 March, 2017 at 5:41 pm:

“Assuming a yes vote 3-6 months prior to Brexit then there’s three choices for the EU :
1) You’re in the EU now. This doesn’t work & will cause damage to everyone really. Reasons being that we’d still be in the UK but also the EU without having negotiated/agreed anything with Westminster/Brussels.”

That’s cobbler’s, Vestas.

In the first place all that needs negotiated with the EU is what proportion of existing United Kingdom costs and rebates Scotland should continue to retain of their share of the United Kingdom membership. It is, after all, a bipartite United Kingdom and thus the existing EU membership is as much Scotland’s as England’s.

The United Kingdom is not legally actually as Westminster claims it to be while treating it as quite a different set-up.

The proof is overwhelming that what is legally a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms as its title says it is, gets run by Westminster as if Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and her only partner kingdom is relegated to the status of the other two legal dominions of England that are Wales & N. Ireland.

Just in case you doubt that statement those two, “Dominions”, are actually mentioned as such in the preamble to the Treaty of Union as recorded in the records of both the Kingdoms that the treaty united.

As to what needs negotiated with, “The United Kingdom”, that will be zilsh because if Scotland leaves there is no more United Kingdom – how can there be a remaining United Kingdom that had only two partners if one partner leaves?

You have been listening too much to Westminster propaganda.

Robert Sutherland, your enthusiasm for the EU is certainly feverish. But Nicola is not the party alone, and although some of the SNP will share her apparent desires, there are those who take a far less dictatorial stance on the subject.

Alex Neil of the SNP had this to say recently:

“The final issue that this parliament should consider is separation of the issue of independence from the issue of whether an independent Scotland should apply for EU membership. A yes vote in an independence referendum cannot be interpreted as a dual mandate for independence and for an independent Scotland to join the EU. I belive that the two issues must be decoupled, and that the explicit approval of the Scottish people must be sought before Scotland applies to rejoin the EU as an independent state…

…it is their choice, – it is their decision…

…When it comes to a referendum on EU membership I find myself in a position in which I find it no more appetising for Scotland to be ruled by Mr Juncker than for it to be ruled by Mrs May. In my view, austerity from London and austerity from Brussels are equally damaging to not just Scotland but the rest of the UK and, indeed, the rest of Europe.”

___________________________

Not that I agree with the idea of Juncker somehow ‘ruling’ us, but still, glad for Alex’s position. I can utterly understand you position and desires, but if you could try to mask your contempt for those many people who don’t particularly like imposed austerity or the large influx of cheap labour, that would be amazing.

Thanks.