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The rules where you are

Posted on October 21, 2018 by

Well well, look who suddenly believes in second referendums.

It’s fascinating to note how you can completely reverse Kezia Dugdale’s position on the subject simply by substituting the word “Scotland” for the words “the UK” in that second tweet, and imagine she was talking about the independence march in heavily-Remain-voting Edinburgh earlier this month instead of the (proportionately smaller) one in London yesterday.

“Many of those taking part are young voters who face missing out on a world of opportunities if Scotland leaves the EU.”

“It’s time to ask the voters if this is what they really want and give the people of Scotland the opportunity to remain in the EU.”

Because by simply putting the name of one country – the one whose parliament Kezia Dugdale actually serves in – in place of another, Dugdale’s principles do a 180-degree turn on the spot and she switches from being in favour of a second vote to being pathologically, implacably opposed to one. Which is kinda weird if you think about it.

(And by saying “the opportunity to remain” she’s leaving no ambiguity about what she means. This isn’t Labour’s official vague woolly position on maybe possibly perhaps supporting some sort of vote that means renegotiating the terms of Brexit somehow, Dugdale just wants to re-run the first referendum to get a different result – exactly the same thing she rages against in Scotland.)

But here’s something else weird.

If you can’t be bothered clicking to read that text from the Gibraltar Broadcasting Corporation – yes, the tiny rock at the bottom of Spain with a population smaller than Falkirk has its own broadcaster, unlike Scotland – it says this:

“The Chief Minister has today confirmed in Parliament that Gibraltar could join the Customs Union as part of a ‘differentiated solution’ in the Brexit withdrawal agreement, meaning it would be more European than the UK.”

So let’s just update ourselves:

ENGLAND: voted Leave, getting what it wanted

WALES: voted Leave, getting what it wanted

NORTHERN IRELAND: voted Remain, getting special treatment

GIBRALTAR: voted Remain, getting special treatment

SCOTLAND: voted Remain, getting nothing

Isn’t it great being an equal partner, readers?

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    1. 21 10 18 14:56

      The rules where you are | speymouth

    218 to “The rules where you are”

    1. Bob Mack says:

      No!!! Then again, we have things they need.

    2. Luigi says:

      I wonder if she would be in favour of a second Indy ref had Yes won in 2014. No need to answer.

    3. Sarah says:

      Please, please, please – Scottish Gov, hold our vote to restore Scotland NOW.

      I haven’t posted this wish for several weeks but the horrors are growing and the only chance is to declare a date to vote soon. No more delay.

      Just allow enough time to print and distribute the Rev’s Wee book…

    4. Davy says:

      Kezia, a person wee mare faces than the town clock.

      Its amazing how these Scottish “spin cultured” unionists will stick up for anybody but their own country.

    5. Richard Hunter says:

      Can we have a second vote to vote her back into the jungle?

    6. Macart says:

      So what is it about Scotland that excludes special treatment or consideration? Answers on a postcard etc. 🙄

      Last we’d heard from those opposed to self determination and of course elements of yer meeja. We’re a burden. Subsidized. Whingers. A sulky lodger living off the largess of others. You’d think if we were such a bother, then this Brexit thingy is the perfect opportunity to shot of such a bothersome and expensive nuisance?

      Something Westminster government aren’t telling folks? Something they might want to clean about? Hmmm?

      In their own time then.

    7. Hamish100 says:

      luigi– Vote NO the unionist labour tories lib dems said. We have the Vow. If you don’t you will be thrown out of the EU.

      The Big Lie.

      No need to answer.

      David Clegg on the bbc supporter of the vow, believes free speech is at risk by the FM not appearing at the conference prepared by the bbc involving the right wing fascist.

    8. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sarah says: 21 October, 2018 at 1:50 pm:

      ” … Please, please, please – Scottish Gov, hold our vote to restore Scotland NOW.”

      Now just why would anyone want the SG to call a vote to, “restore”, Scotland before the SG thinks that there is a clear chance of the vote going their way?

      Anyway! To restore Scotland to what? The pre-devolution state of subservience or the pre-Treaty of Union subservience?

      The worst setback that Scotland could possibly suffer, (short of either a bad accident at the Clyde Base or a nuclear strike upon the Clyde base by a United Kingdom enemy state or terrorist group), would be to call for an Indy vote and lose it.

      The thought of such a disaster by the SG does not bear thinking about.

    9. Capella says:

      I heard that Nicola addressed the marchers by video link. That must have been an uncanny experience for Kezia – like “Big Sister”.

      Kezia – a Study in Cognitive Dissonance.

    10. Scottish Steve says:

      What an absolute hypocrite she is! I swear to God, if Scots don’t wake up and get us the hell out of the UK, Ill probably hate my fellow countrymen forever.

    11. shug says:

      So how do we get this in front of the people

      the BBC will not report and neither will the MSM

    12. Completely OT but watched ‘Jack Ryan’ the other day, and wondered who he reminded me of. Vacant look, thinking deeply, staring into the distance, nil expression, glass eyes, then springing into action to save the world on TV shows. Yes! Ross Thompson.

    13. Robert Peffers says:

      Great! Isn’t it? N.I, as part of the Kingdom of Ireland is an integral part of the Kingdom of England from the 1542, Crown of Ireland Act.

      Gibraltar too has been an integral part of the Kingdom of England after Gibraltar was captured by a Royal Navy Fleet in 1704 during the war of the Spanish Succession., (On 4th August 1704).

      Both of these before there was a bipartite United Kingdom in 1706/7 in which the only two equally sovereign kingdoms with their signatures and royal seals on the Treaty of Union entered into a, (Cough!), partnership known as the United Kingdom came into being.

      Yet those two parts of the Kingdom of England are to be given special treatment while the only legal partner kingdom of the Kingdom of England is excluded and ignored.

      “United Kingdom”?



    14. John Lamb says:

      C’mon Kezia .. nearly there. Find the light switch.

    15. Robert Peffers says:

      Gordon Ross – IndyCar 38 minutes ago:-

    16. Frank Gillougley says:

      Yes, the british labour party bringing you the unalterable and merciless contradictory logic that poses as righteousness to a wee country near you. You couldn’t make it up.

      God, how i hate these self-appointed spokespeople.
      Mea culpa , mea culpa.

    17. Hamish100 says:

      Didn’t realise the Daily Records Unionist Clegg was not only on the TV this morning with Brewer but also on radio Scotland press review. So why wasn’t the National’s representative on both programmes too?

      BBc Scotland bias for all to see.

    18. Brian Powell says:

      Presumably those in Scotland who want to be in the EU but don’t want to vote for Independence are expecting the Scottish Government to fix the monumental f..k up coming from Westminster, because Westminster can’t fix it.

    19. TJenny says:

      Scotland – Big enough, rich enough, smart enough… and f**kin’ had enough!

    20. manandboy says:

      Kezia Dugdale is a cold fire.

    21. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 14:07,

      You still don’t get it, do you? There is never going to be a “clear chance”.

      Sometime (and soon) we’re going to have to exercise good judgement, trust in our cause and risk all, just like Bruce did all those centuries ago.

      The thought of such a disaster by the SG does not bear thinking about.

      Oh, well, let’s not bother, then. Too difficult. Go back to doing sweet FA and just grumble incessantly at the unfairness of it all.

    22. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ach, no worries. Kez is simply working up to becoming a FibDem. They are the masters of political hypocrisy re referendums. Kezia is a mere beginner.

    23. Artyhetty says:

      There’s a name for those in politics who take a huge wage from the public purse but who work against their own country and their own people.

      Gibralter, mustn’t have any oil then, they will get their independence to boot.

      Scotland, chained to ‘UKOK’ forever more, well, until the huge booty of oil and gas runs out, even then, land, seas, water, renewables etc are some of the things some countries are fighting over already.

      I was thinking about borders, as you do, and wonder, why is the ‘English channel’ not called the ‘UK’ channel. Also do we ever hear people say, ‘the country of the UK’? No, because it’s not a freaking country, but every media outlet, everywhere calls it that. Grrrrr.

      Can think of other names for it, but it wouldn’t be printable.

      Great article, it’s a full time job calling out the lying scheming Labour troughers that’s for sure!

    24. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      They are amazingly anti-Scottish even the ones who are Scots there is a word for these folk…

      One who betrays one’s country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits … know.

      Britnats of course.

    25. mogabee says:

      Haud me back!

      How bloody dare Scotland think it’s so fucking special!

      Two faced wee scumbag

    26. Thepnr says:

      I’d put money on the Falkland Islands getting it’s own special deal too. Everyone but Scotland.

      Who cares? Not me, if you trample all over peoples democratic rights then don’t be surprised when they “take back control” and decide the time is right to make decisions for themselves.

      Despite what she says in public Kezia will put her X in the Yes box when we have our second referendum. We’re winning the arguments.

    27. Referendum1707 says:

      Who actually cares what the stupid bitch thinks or says about anything?

    28. potter says:

      Nicola Sturgeon playing a blinder. Supporting peoples vote when she knows it wont happen. Must be lots of nurses, doctors , teachers etc looking up to Scotland, what with free prescriptions, free education, better healthcare, cheaper housing etc, could be their only way to stay in the EU.

    29. Orri says:

      French Channel and Irish Sea. Is there a body of water Scotland gets? Or might we get ideas of ownershipm? Then again there’s oil fields named after places in England.

    30. TJenny says:

      Kezia will have to maintain her anti indy stance or risk losing The Record’s ‘legal support’, and then where would she be.

    31. Ottomanboi says:

      Clegg, the man who screwed up the LibDems is headed for a cushy job in California with Zuckerberg’s outfit.
      Brit politicians would sell their ‘ass’ to anybody. Kezia, go and do likewise! You wouldn’t be missed. Honest….

    32. Ken500 says:

      Dugdale, the liar, wants to destroy the Scottish economy so she can line her own pockets. A selfish, ignorant, incompetent. What a complete and utter disgrace. How can people vote for these people or their Parties. How low can they go? It is just sickening.

    33. Dan Huil says:

      Dugdale is a disgrace. Tractor.

    34. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – thx for the link to Gordon Indycar, interesting points on the irish Border, AUOB and Steve Bannon. He ended with the good news that 85% of people polled by the Herald want a second Indyref.

      BTW I agree Robert that timing is everything. Nicola is right to wait for the most propitious time to call the referendum. But she is in no doubt that it will come.

    35. Robert Kerr says:


      History of the “Backstop” succinctly and comprehensively laid out.

      Don’t expect the BBC to tell you anything other than lies and obfuscation.

      Tony Connelly knows what it’s all about.

      He studied English at Trinity College and is as good as any with the nuances of the language.

      He has the measure of the English Nationalists, perhaps we should give him a position as adviser to our nascent iScot provisional government during negotiations with the English Nationalists.

    36. Andy-B says:

      The hypocrisy of Dugdale knows no bounds.

      Didn’t Theresa May ask the EU to make sure that Scotland didn’t get a special deal?

    37. Macart says:


      Wouldn’t surprise me tbh.

      On the wider issue? What more folk need to start doing, (and that would be right now), is asking themselves the why of it. Especially after the past several years of political and media narrative on the subject of Scotland.

      Why is everyone but Scotland allowed special consideration? The more bods start to join the dots, the better. 🙂

    38. Josef Ó Luain says:

      All the fault-lines and contradictions inherent in the Unionist position are becoming more evident with each day that passes. Kez and her ill-informed ilk are doing a damn fine job on our behalf.

    39. Dr Jim says:

      I foresee a more biggerer betterer togetherer VOW than has ever been VOWED before coming soon to a media near us
      Scotland will be at the vanguard of the new enlighteningness of a more Grande Brittanica than has even been Brittanicked before and its world trade dominationing of all the world and other places as well

      And they’ll gae Mundell the job of selling it to us

      Oh how we’ll laugh

      Djae know what though I’ll bet there’ll still be some folk who’ll believe it

    40. Brian Powell says:

      If being in the UK is so beneficial why has support for being in the EU gone up in the Republic of Ireland and why hasn’t the Republic of Ireland asked or begged to return under Westminster rule.

      Someone should ask Kezia and Labour in Scotland.

    41. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 21 October, 2018 at 2:56 pm:

      ” … You still don’t get it, do you? There is never going to be a “clear chance”.”

      Oh! Not again! Another load of utter pish from the usual faction. I’m not going to spend too much time on such drivel.

      ” … Sometime (and soon) we’re going to have to exercise good judgement, trust in our cause and risk all, just like Bruce did all those centuries ago.”

      Oh! Aye! And who says you and King Robert are on anything like a par with each other? King Robert was a great strategist and hardly ever put a foot wrong. It was not by chance.

      Please then, Robert can you show us your record of matters political victory? King Robert is famed for NOT acting prematurely and by winning the wars of independence by his good judgement. Bannockburn itself a case in point. He bided his time, chose the field of battle and stacked the cards in his favour. What though if some hot heads had ignored the Kings orders and attacked prematurely?

      Ever studied an account of the Battle of Old Byland? A masterpiece of a small force utterly routing a much larger and better armed force? Also note how King Robert dealt with the Papal excommunication of himself and his kingdom that resulted in the Declaration of Arbroath that is the basis of Scottish law today. Thing is that King Robert, like our present FM, had a great deal of backroom support.

      ” … Oh, well, let’s not bother, then. Too difficult. Go back to doing sweet FA and just grumble incessantly at the unfairness of it all.”

      Oh! Dear! Oh! Dear! Are YOU the misinformed numptie?

      In the first place where do you derive the false information that the FM/SG or the SG legal teams are doing nothing? There is information that they are doing plenty and that information has been posted here on Wings. Don’t you know about it or are you deliberately attempting to mislead Wingers?

      The SG legal team have secured the overturning of the Westminster Government’s appeal to the Supreme Court that the SG’s claim about Article 50 was irrelevant. The SC ruled it was irrelevant that Westminster’s grounds for bringing the appeal, (they claimed that because Westminster had no intention of opposing the matter it was irrelevant). The SC ruled that their Westminster’s intentions to not oppose it were not grounds for it to be stopped and it is now in the hands of the ECJ who are fast tracking their decision and expect it to be settled before Christmas.

      The claim being made also includes that little insignificant matter of the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty that Westminster omitted to oppose and thus, in law, tacitly admitted exists. Yet you and your cohorts are here claiming the SG and FM are doing nothing and have the temerity to accuse me of, “Not Getting it”.

      Oh! I’m getting it all right – you quite obviously are attempting to goad independence supporters into pressurising the FM/SG into taking premature action they quite obviously have well in hand already.

      However, the most arrogant, Britnat-like thing about this is that you assume you lot of numpties are better informed and more astute than the FM/SG/SG legal teams and that we should all stop listening to them and listen to a handful of either hotheads or at worse Britnat agents provocateur.

      Well I cannot speak for others but I plainly show here who I trust to be best placed to judge when the time is tight to act – and it just isn’t you and your faction.

    42. Brian Powell says:

      Mundell, Davidson, Leonard, Willie, don’t want another IndReferendum because when there is one they will need to put the case for the UK.

    43. Mike says:

      FUCK! Just FUCK!

    44. call me dave says:

      Joining the dots is right, we got what they want.

      Song verse for us Scots: (I altered two words)
      apologies to the Stones.
      No, you can’t always get what you want
      You can’t always get what you want
      You can’t always get what you want
      But if you try sometime you find
      You get what we think you need

    45. CameronB Brodie says:

      Despite having an MA in Social Policy, this woman clearly does not understand the concept of equality before the law. Her British nationalism warps her judgement to the extent she is unable be patriotic to Scotland. She is a Scottish ‘socialist’ who appears to support right-wing, authoritarian, English nationalism. That’s some mammoth Cringe, IMHO.

      Indian Constitution for Dummies – Equality before Law and Equal Protection of Laws

    46. Clootie says:

      …how can you be such a hypocrite day after day?
      Can she naw jist hide and stop pretending she cares.

    47. K1 says:

      Mr Peffers is correct. Nicola’s driving the bus up front…she’s got her team navigating the potholes and detours, she has at points had to literally rebuild sections of collapsed road before moving forward. We’re way at the back of the bus…we can’t see ‘all’ of what’s ahead. We have to trust the driver…and keep the heid…nae point in the road rage…s’no gonnae make her drive faster.

    48. jfngw says:

      Seen question about why BBC Scotland spend so much time on the fishing industry when discussing Brexit. Simple I would think, the fishermen are pro Brexit, the BBC is pro Brexit (why else would they have spent so much time building the credibility of Brexiteers). Also they feel it is a SNP weak point and they are going to poke that sore for as long as they can.

      To the BBC there is only one fishing organisation that exists, the one that has Tories in charge and controls most of the catch. But only seems to concerned with the interests of 5 families.

      So there you have it, the BBC is concerned with the outcome for 5 families, the rest of business and Scotland is pretty much irrelevant to them. Unless of course they can find other pro-Brexit, anti-SNP companies out there.

    49. Robert Peffers says:

      @Orri says: 21 October, 2018 at 3:27 pm:

      ” … French Channel and Irish Sea. Is there a body of water Scotland gets?”

      Yes Orri, there is. It is recognised as under Scottish Legal jurisdiction under the International Law of the Seas and every drop of it belongs to Scotland, (except, perhaps, a 600 SQ Mile bit that Westminster claim’s is now English. Now as it is under Scottish jurisdiction it is the Scottish Police and the Scottish legal system that is charged for law and order over that Scottish Jurisdiction.

      However, there is a great anomaly – even although the international Law of the Seas recognises it is Scottish territorial waters the Westminster Government claims every single penny of revenues that come from those Scottish Territorial waters as belonging, not to Scotland, but instead to what Westminster terms, “United Kingdom Extra-Regio Territory”.

      Now strangely up to 98% of those oil & Gas and other revenues are easily identifiable as being extracted from Scottish Territorial Waters. So, you may ask, what is the anomaly? The answer is that the term, “Extra-Regio”, is defined by Westminster to mean, “From no specifically identifiable region of the United Kingdom.

      ” … Howe Or might we get ideas of ownershipm? Then again there’s oil fields named after places in England.”

      Ach! Orri, the hale bliddy Scottish territory is officially designated as United Kingdom Extra-Regio Territory because Scotland canny collect the revenue fir onythin.

      That will be the case until a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland say til the Inglis, “Haw, see youse, gies iz oor ain back or wull end the Treaty o Union ye keep breckin”.

    50. winifred mccartney says:

      Poor Kez – she just can’t think any further than the point of her nose – you know the mantra ‘just follow the money’ that’s what has been her undoing – same with Trump, Mogg, Davidson, Brown,Cameron, etc no matter how much they have they want more and they really don’t care about anyone else. Kez is small time against these others but following the same rule me, me, me, more, more can’t let down her legal backers covering up her stupidity and stubbornness.

      The more I read about Trump, Mogg, Bannon, etc the more I am afraid for the whole world and the more I admire the SG and Nicola. If only all leaders represented their people like the SG the world would be a better place. Instead the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Disgusting.

    51. Muscleguy says:

      @Robert Peffers
      My favourite King Robert battle was Loudon Hill not far from where I’m from. Scots supposedly caught in a valley with a hill at their back and flat land in front ideal for a heavy mounted charge. Except the land either side of the road was full of covered trenches with sharpened stakes at the bottom and the road was liberally sown with caltrops.

      The English knights (Monty Python pronunciation) duly charged and came fully a cropper. They were then finished off/taken prisoner by lightly armed Scots. The English sent in foot soldiers who could only advance, gingerly down the road and so it was Stirling Bridge again.

      King Robert got there early, chose the ground and prepared it well to neuter the English advantages. Being an Ayshire lad like me of course he knew the ground around there well to start with. Silly English, fighting on someone else’s home turf.

    52. Dan Huil says:

      Billy Connolly: Independence may be ‘way to go’ amid Brexit ‘disaster’

    53. Angus MacAlister says:

      I see Billy Connolly is now saying that if being independent is the only way to keep Scotland in the EU he’ll support it, how times have changed since 2014.

    54. Dugdale is an isolated wee figure, in a Party of One’ possibly two if we include that other waste of Public Funds, Ian Murray, of the Butcher’s Apron 3 piece suit.
      Corbyn has cut both of them out of the Blue Tories, and Dugdale certainly will not get on Leonard’s Gravy Train regional List at any future election.
      She is finished; yet we discuss he sad little attention seeking tweet from London.
      Who would have her as a new member. The Blue Tories?
      Bumble, Humble, Crumble Stumble, and Mumble, the Yellow Tories Right Wing tribute act?
      She is done for, and cast herself into the self imposed wilderness.
      What a bang up job she did running the Branch Office. A poor third behind the Blue Tories, for whom she pressed the electorate to vote to ‘beat’ the EssEnnPee.
      She would have the nerve to apply to join the SNP. would she?
      The Greens might take her.

    55. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jack collatin says: 21 October, 2018 at 5:15 pm:

      ” … She would have the nerve to apply to join the SNP. would she?”

      Ah! Jack, make that, “re-apply”, to join the SNP. Before joining Labour KEZ applied to join the SNP and was not accepted so moved to Labour. Says it all really.

    56. Rob says:

      This is the perennial “Scottish condition” where we should know our place…

    57. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 57 minutes:-

      Breaking 1 hr ago:-

      Breaking 27 minutes ago:-

      Breaking 21 hours ago:-

      Things seem to be getting closer and speeded up now

      Getting much harder to keep up with it all.

      Now I’ve been saying for a long time that when independence happens it will be out of the blue and come from a possible unexpected source. I may just have been right for once.

    58. Les Wilson says:

      If we had any doubt about the NHS, there is no doubt where the UK is being led by May, Boris and CO.

    59. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The Dug. Again.

      The infinite pinata.

    60. Rock says:

      “The rules where you are”

      Obviously “sovereign” Scots get different rules applied to them.

    61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 16:19,

      Another dump of nonsense from someone who clearly doesn’t bother to read and understand even the most simple basics of a posting, happily turns logic on its head, and just can’t resist being gratuitously insulting into the bargain.

      In your valiant attempts to suppress any deviation from your own self-imposed orthodoxy, you manage to give a very good impression of someone who would gladly suffocate any and all debate. According to you we’re just supposed to meekly submit to the opinions of our “betters” like humble know-nothing dummies. A fine advertisment for the SNP and independence there.

      My point was precisely that The Bruce was both a canny strategist and also someone ready and willing to inspire and act. Whereas with your usual half-baked knee-jerk defence of the SNP against even the merest whiff of disagreement – even when there is none except in your own febrile imagination – you major on the first part and totally ignore the second. There is nowhere where I urged a hasty rush to judgement. Quite the reverse. But we also require mountains of inspiration and a clear assurance that a showdown is on its way. That hope is what keeps us going.

      It’s hardly worth the bother of arguing with such a pompous self-opinionated know-it-all, but I have to point out that nowhere have I indicated any discontent with what the SG is doing in the background. Just another example of how you bend arguments completely out of shape, and create straw men for yet another lengthy outburst of insufferable pre-digested opinionating.

      To spell it out for you, I was referring to the potential effect of the likes of you on ordinary yessers, ordered by sergeant-major Peffers to just hunker down silently in their miserable trenches and patiently wait to “go over the top” when the officers finally get round to blowing the whistle. (If they ever do.) There is a real danger that such relentless passivity will eventually have a corrosive effect on the very people without whom this campaign will assuredly fail.

      People like Sarah, whom you this morning in your typical fashion so patronisingly put down for daring to express the impatience and disgust with the current situation we are all having to endure.

      Well, without that impatience and disgust we are in very sterile territory indeed. It’s such feelings, which you tirelessly work to decry, which will actually lead us to a win.

    62. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Peffers says:


      The first two stories were lifted from Express 18 hours ago and 9 hours ago.

      The CAPITALISED words in the headlines are the giveaway.

      Is News4U perhaps an automated additional means of the Express getting its stories onto Google?

    63. stewartb says:

      Once again, Wings provides information and insight that I would otherwise never have. This information on Gibraltar is both interesting and important – and in such contrast to how Scotland is being treated and how the UK Government seems to be bowing to DUP pressure.

      For anyone who wants to know more, you might want to go to the primary source, namely the Hansard record of the relevant proceedings in the Gibraltar Parliament. ( )

      Because IMHO this is so significant, I’d like to reproduce these points that stand out for me on reading the Hansard text:

      1) first for context: throughout his address, the Chief Minister refers to Gibraltar as a ‘nation’ – I had no idea this was the status claimed.

      2) the Chief Minister of Gibraltar states: “That means that we would likely be finalising a differentiated deal to the rest of the United Kingdom as we leave full membership of the European Union. Some thought that that would not be possible. Indeed, some thought that we would be wrong to pursue such a solution. Yet today, some 26 months on, I am able to tell you confidently that the need for such a differentiated solution has been understood as much in London as it has in Brussels and in Madrid.”

    64. Petra says:

      Kezia is on the march in England (previously travelling to the US to support Clinton), because the harsh realities of Brexit have become clearer and she’s concerned about the potential of missed opportunities of generations to come. So she says.

      And when the chips are down and England is leaving the EU and dragging Scotland out with it, against the Scots wishes, will she still oppose Indyref2? When Indyref2 comes to pass will she then in fact vote for Independence or stand by and watch future generations of young Scots suffer the misery that past generations suffered in Scotland under Labour’s (and Tory / Libdem) watch? Just as she stands by and watches one in four of our Scottish children, currently, suffer under the Tories: a political party that she has supported. Seems to me that Kezia Dugdale is more interested in travelling and in the youngsters in America and England than those in Scotland. If that’s the case, and she should reflect on that, she should bow out of Holyrood, ASAP.


      Just waiting to see what kind of deal the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man get. Jersey 9 miles long by 5 miles wide with a population of around 100,000. The Isle of Man 32 miles long by 14 miles wide with a population of around 84,000. Then there’s the Kingdom of Scotland with the, “most powerfully devolved Parliament in the (whole wide) World, as per David Mundell, et al, that’ll get a kick in the teeth if Westminster is allowed to carry out its plans. You know Scotland the country of 5 million people that gets subsidised by England (pop 55 million – second most highly populated country in Europe). Scotland with it’s beautiful open countryside, brimming over with natural resources, fantastic assets such as its highly educated people and a landmass which covers a third of the UK, including the security critical northern coastline. Oil, gas, electricity and water galore unlike England. Food aplenty unlike England. Exports more that it imports unlike England. With just a couple of problems folks, massive stumbling blocks, and that is that we’re too poor and stupid to go it alone. So the Unionists say. But by God, we say not for much longer.

    65. orri says:

      The usual con job of privatisation meaning a better cheaper service raises its ugly head again. Not to say that there isn’t wastage in a nationalised service or the potential for embezzlement but the answer to that is an inspectorate. It’s not mysteriously someone skimming a profit and in the case of US investment that going abroad and thus out of the economy.

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the likely Brexit bonus of a privatised health service. Health care is not an economic commodity, it’s a social commodity.

      The proposal of philosophical basis of the health care system

    67. Lenny Hartley says:

      Petra the Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.

    68. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “or the pre-Treaty of Union subservience

      Well, yes indeed, perhaps not a lot of people know that the Kings of Scotland paid homage to the London one at times, in fact there were accomodations for when they came down to do so. The area became Scotland Yard for obvious reasons, and is now the HQ of RUSI. Just off Whitehall, near Trafalgar Square I think.

      Off the top of my head, exact detail not remembered.

    69. Calum McKay says:

      One gets the impresssion Kezia was going to leave politics had “I’m a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here” worked well for her. It did not.

      With a media career path closed to her, you get the impression Kezia is picking up a monthly cheque from the Scottish people as a second best career choice – until the unthinkable – elevation to the lords.

      No shock however, this is totally in line with most has been Scottish labour mps.

    70. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the arrogance of English Tories and Anglo-centered British nationalism in general.

      Social dominance theory


      Social dominance theory, formulated by Sidanius and Pratto (1999), is designed to explain the origin and consequence of social hierarchies and oppression (for a review, see Pratto, Sidanius, & Levin, 2006). In particular, social dominance theory attempts to explain why society seems to be underpinned by a hierarchy of groups, ranging from dominant to subordinate. According to this theory, many myths, policies, and practices in society unfairly advantage dominant groups over subordinate groups. These myths and ideologies maintain and amplify existing hierarchies as well as represent a consequence of these inequities.

    71. Ken Burnett says:

      Pedant’s corner.
      Actually, Falkirk is 154, 280 to Gib’s 34,000

    72. Dan Huil says:

      Dugdale will get reward from her friends in the British nationalist establishment for doing down Scotland.

    73. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      A wee correction:

      Whilst it is true Gibraltar was captured by a joint English / Dutch force, Gibraltar was only officially ceded to Great Britain by the treaty of Utrecht in 1713.

      So, Gibraltar officially came under the rule of GB, not England, as the Union had taken place in 1707.

    74. Lenny Hartley says:

      Muscleguy, re King Roberts tactics, I was taught at Primary Skool that he used similar tactics at Bannockburn with the booby trapped trenches, still a effective tactic in the 20th century in Vietnam

    75. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      At the end of the day despite everything that is going on we must remember we all have to try to convert ONE no to yes.

      Only ONE no to yes and the whole thing is over.

      After you have done that let us remember our friends in Catalonia some who are in prison for doing what we are doing shame on Spain and shame on the EU.

    76. Rock says:

      Some of us can say things with foresight rather than hindsight.

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      21 October, 2018 at 6:21 pm

      Robert Peffers @ 16:19,

      “It’s hardly worth the bother of arguing with such a pompous self-opinionated know-it-all”

      Rock (22nd May 2017 – “The pertinent questions”):

      “Robert Peffers is an aggressive verbal bully.

      When his shite is challenged and he is left speechless, he pretends he hasn’t noticed (“The unholy union”).

      His sycophants go after you like blood hounds if you dare challenge him, but I am one of the few posters who can take all of them on.

      Don’t be afraid of them. Post your opinions. This site doesn’t belong to them.”

    77. Thepnr says:

      @Ken Burnett

      From the pedants pedant corner Falkirk town has a population of 34,570 (2008). The figure you quote is for the population of Falkirk council area 🙂

    78. Rock says:

      Some of us can say things with foresight rather than hindsight.

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      21 October, 2018 at 6:21 pm

      “Robert Peffers @ 16:19,

      People like Sarah, whom you this morning in your typical fashion so patronisingly put down for daring to express the impatience and disgust with the current situation we are all having to endure.”

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

      Challenge to the usual suspects:

      Does a single one of you have the guts to go on the record and state that there will definitely be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

    79. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Wee Kezia Dugfail still toeing the Blairite Line it appears.

      Wager of aggressive war Tony Bliar (no typo) says People’s Vote good therefore so does she.

      Wonder if she’s also in the Henry Jackson Society like another well known Blairite and former BritNat Labour in Scotland Branch Manager?

      “Jim Murphy is on the Political Council of the Henry Jackson Society, a neo-conservative transatlantic think tank”

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland says: 21 October, 2018 at 6:21 pm:

      ” … Another dump of nonsense from someone who clearly doesn’t bother to read and understand even the most simple basics of a posting, happily turns logic on its head, and just can’t resist being gratuitously insulting into the bargain.”

      Says he, as usual, making statements and spouting insults with no evidence or cites except personal opinions and accusations.

      Awa an bile yer heid!

      ” … In your valiant attempts to suppress any deviation from your own self-imposed orthodoxy, you manage to give a very good impression of someone who would gladly suffocate any and all debate. According to you we’re just supposed to meekly submit to the opinions of our “betters” like humble know-nothing dummies.”

      Nah! More insults and unsubstantiated claptrap. At no time have I suppressed debate but you do not debate. You spout mantras with nothing to substantiate them. You make unsubstantiated claims that the SNP, the SG and the First minister are twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing. The evidence of which you never quote, says otherwise.

      ” … My point was precisely that The Bruce was both a canny strategist and also someone ready and willing to inspire and act.”

      Nah! Your point may indeed be the Bruce was both a canny strategist and ready to inspire and act but you out and out accuse the FM, SG and SNP of doing nothing.

      ” … we also require mountains of inspiration and a clear assurance that a showdown is on its way. That hope is what keeps us going.”

      Who are these we you speak of, Robert, can you name them?

      ” … It’s hardly worth the bother of arguing with such a pompous self-opinionated know-it-all”

      To lower myself to your schoolyard, (cough!), style of, Err! reasoned debat – It takes one to know one.

      ” … Just another example of how you bend arguments completely out of shape, and create straw men for yet another lengthy outburst of insufferable pre-digested opinionating.”

      Then why, if it is so insufferable do you bother to read them? Oh! BTW: is opinionating even a known word or are you making things up … again.

      ” … To spell it out for you, I was referring to the potential effect of the likes of you on ordinary yessers, ordered by sergeant-major Peffers to just hunker down silently in their miserable trenches and patiently wait to “go over the top” when the officers finally get round to blowing the whistle. (If they ever do.) There is a real danger that such relentless passivity will eventually have a corrosive effect on the very people without whom this campaign will assuredly fail.”

      Oh! Dear! Oh! Dear!

      What a diatribe of utter and complete hot air and pish.

      In the first place there is no such thing as an ordinary Yesser and in the second are we now to assume that you see yourself as NOT an extra ordinary yesser and some self-appointed higher form of yesser sent to lead and inform the lower orders in the right way to think, act and believe.

      Mind you it is usually to think and act directly against the FM/SG and the yes movement in general?

      ” … People like Sarah, whom you this morning in your typical fashion so patronisingly put down for daring to express the impatience and disgust with the current situation we are all having to endure.”

      Well, Robert, no I didn’t. Sarah, much like yourself, was pleading with the FM to jump right now but also like you did not think to question if the FM was in fact doing nothing but was just assuming she, Sarah, knew best and the FM did not. Also, like you Sarah offered no evidence that the FM was doing nothing. Get this straight.

      I would venture the opinion that there isn’t a single indy supporter that does not feel impatient to be doing something now. Most though do not openly accuse the FM of doing nothing or not doing enough or not doing enough right now.

      Most, and I include myself, are impatient but there is rather a long way between feeling impatient and urging the FM, (obviously against her better judgement), to instigate something that would set back the movement for decades if not forever.

      I’ll put that another way for you. The FM is an elected MSP by her constituents. She is chosen as Leader of the SNP by the party members. She is chosen as the first minister, believe it or not, by the entire cross-party members elected as MSP to the Holyrood Parliament.

      Who the hell are you to tell all those people the FM is not doing her job? Now don’t even try to deny it. I may be wrong but I cannot recall seeing any of your claims she is not doing anything or even not doing enough that was accompanied by your statement that it was, “in your humble opinion”. That is probably because you don’t do humble opinions and here again in this particular comment we have nought but unsubstantiated accusations and never a word of logical argument or cited proofs.

      ” … Well, without that impatience and disgust we are in very sterile territory indeed.”

      Now there’s a very, very, telling statement, impatience and, disgust.

      There is your truth. I already stated I don’t believe there is a single indy supporter who is not impatient.

      I’m ready to read of any who are not – a know I’m impatient – but then I’ve been impatient for indy for my entire teen to octogenarian life.

      Thing is I’m not disgusted at the efforts of the FM, SG, SNP, YES movement or especially now AUOB.

      I believe the FM to be doing her job to the best of her ability and that the SG and SNP as a party know a damned site better than I do of what is going on and how to deal with it. Why would I be disgusted at their efforts? Where would we now be without them through recent years ” It’s such feelings, which you tirelessly work to decry, which will actually lead us to a win.

      But then, unlike you I do not claim to know better than the FM/SG/SNP and instead of being disgusted with them I trust them, (not perhaps to always get things right), but to always do their utmost to do so but I realise they are human beings and can make mistakes.

      So, there you go – take your disgust and shove it where it will do least harm.

    81. Fred says:

      Scottish kings did homage for their lands in England, the Wars of Independence put an end to this, the nobility no longer served two masters & even marriage was prohibited across the border.

    82. aLurker says:

      @stewartb 6:25 pm

      |Hansard record of the relevant proceedings in the Gibraltar |Parliament.
      | (
      |/thursday_20_september_2018_afternoon_session.pdf )

      Thankyou. A most enlightening read.
      Both the statement of Chief Minister (Hon. F R Picardo) on pages 3 – 6 wherein he ‘reads in to the record’ reportage of a transcription of
      Spanish Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell,

      followed by statement from and reply to the leaders of the opposition.

      wherein it is made ubundantly clear that a great deal of meticulously enacted secrecy has been maintained and none present wish to be publicly seen to be in a position where they have broken that secrecy.

      On your point:
      |1) first for context: throughout his address, the Chief Minister |refers to Gibraltar as a ‘nation’ – I had no idea this was the |status claimed.

      He only uses that term ‘nation’ to refer to themselves (Gibraltarians) on 3 occasion.

      It seems to me that this is explained by the official position of government that Gibraltar is an independent territory, recognised by the United Nations.

      reading wikipedia it seems the ‘Gibraltar Constitution Order 2006’ gives them a much stronger ‘devolution’ settlement than that actually ‘enjoyed’ by the nation of Scotland!

      Also I recall that under UN law, it is a _people_ that have the right to be self governing.
      Thus under this, their preferred formulation, it is maintained that Spain cannot have legitimate claim of sovereignty over them under international law.

      Of course I am not and expert _and_ I Am Not A Lawyer. 😉

      This however does lead me to a an obvious question, which perhaps some of the people on here who _are_ experts or maybe even _do_ have experience with Treaties and Internationl Law and such:

      Since Spain signed Sovereignty over the territory of Gibraltar way back in 1713 to the United Kingdom of Great Britain

      What will the fallout for Spain / Gibraltar be _when_ Scotland decides to exit from the Treaty of Union and thus the legal entity that signed those treaties, the United Kingdom no longer exists?

      Presumably those agreements will ‘lapse’?

    83. Petra says:

      @ Lenny at 7:04pm …. “Petra the Isle of Man isn’t a member of the EU.”

      I’m aware of that Lenny, however UK Brexit will still have an impact on the Isle of Man / The Channel Islands, which have links to the EU, and it’ll be interesting to see if they fair better than Scotland at the end of the day.

    84. Petra says:

      I’m just wondering if Scotland will have a “stake” in places like Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, etc, following Independence?

    85. Golfnut says:

      The Bruce made nobles choose which country they belonged to. Choose Scotland, you couldn’t own land in England and vice versa.
      James the 6th moving to England changed all that. English, Irish and Welsh land given to favourites and hingers on.

      Those estates were the main reason for the Treaty of Union, the threat was that Scottish nobles would those estates unless the Treaty was signed. Yes money changed hands, but it was peanuts compared to the value of those estates.

    86. Golfnut says:

      I would hazard a guess that any territory acquired by the crown from 1603 onwards was as much the property of the Scottish Crown as the English crown. Just as HM gov, HM Treasury, HM civil Service is actually the Queen of Scots gov as it is the Queen of England’s. This is perhaps not perceived as relevant or important at the moment, but you can bet your bottom dollar Westminster has.

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 21 October, 2018 at 7:04 pm:

      ” … Petra the Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.”

      Indeed so, Lenny. Neither is it part of the Westminster United Kingdom Government nor are The Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey. All three are Crown Dependencies but not under Westminster Government.

      All three are, though, parts of Her Majesty Queen of England’s personal United Kingdom and all three are, as such, associate Members of the EU.

    88. Terence callachan says:

      England is doing all this because it has 800,000 English people living in Scotland and just like 2014 nearly all of them will vote against Scottish independence they amount to a whole third of the NO vote and if it wasn’t for them Scotland would win independence easily.
      So many of you are blinkered by the small group who call themselves english Scots for yes ,they are a small group but have been given a big voice in the independence movement on the basis that they are a great asset however democratically it is simply wrong for English people no matter where they lived few on this planet to get a vote n Scottish independence when it is their country England that Scotland is trying to free itself from.
      Wake up wake up this is not about racism or hate the English or any nonsense like that it is simply democracy, English people should not in any circumstances be able to vote for their country to continue controlling Scotland .
      Sure they can live in Scotland and gave all other rights gets including voting in elections including general elections and local council elections but they should not be allowed to vote in a Scottish independence referendum .

    89. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      I’m just wondering if Scotland will have a “stake” in places like Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, etc, following Independence?

      There are about a dozen overseas territories. iScotland should be due one when the assets are divied out. I think we should put in an early claim on Bermuda. 🙂

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah here we go, back into character again. No, there are about 450,000 English origin people in Scotland, and seeing as how some of them are still not beyond the “mama” “dada” stage of age, it’s unlikely they’ll be give the vote even by the most emancipated government possible!

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh I don’t know, Isle of Man would seem more appropriate as it was the Celts settled it, and it was under Scots control from 1266 until nicked by England. We could take it on and give it true Independence 🙂

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Terence callachan
      Here’s a rebutal of you opinion, from a Social and Political Philosophy perspective.

      Political Justification through Democratic Participation


      On a proceduralist account of democracy, collective decisions derive their jus- tification—at least in part—from the qualities of the process through which they have been made. To fulfill its justificatory function, this process should ensure that citizens have an equal right to political participation as a respectful response to their equal status as agents capable of self-legislation. How should democratic participation be understood if it is to offer such a procedural justification for democratic decisions? I suggest that, in order to overcome the structural procedural disadvantages affecting the actual, effective opportunities that citizens who hold nonmainstream views have to exercise their right to political participation, the enhancement of such opportunities requires securing space for contestation. Against this background, I vindicate the (currently underestimated) role of conscientious objection as a form of political participation.

      democracy participation conscientious objection civil disobedience Respect

    93. twathater says:

      @ Daisy Walker , in that statement re Gibraltar , within lays what you have been saying recently ( practical issues still to be decided Surprise Surprise , police and customs ,trade in tobacco, and would you believe it A TAX TREATY )

      Does anyone think this may have something to do with the upcoming EU legislation re tax avoidance . My concern is that the EU are facilitating the UK;s obvious protection of illegal tax avoidance . Are the EU corrupt in bending to this illegality . THIS WHOLE THING STINKS

      Nicola get us out of this NOW

    94. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      The “new” you was doing so well too but have reverted to type.

    95. schrodingers cat says:

      Petra says:
      I’m just wondering if Scotland will have a “stake” in places like Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, etc, following Independence?

      preferably some place warm

    96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terence callachan at 8.56

      Utter rubbish and such statements are designed to damage our cause.
      There is an estimated 450,000 to 500,000 English people in Scotland (and some of them are Scots returning after many years away). We have a sizeable number of English folk in our SNP branches in this area,some of them very active and some of them who help in or use the Forward Shop in Dunoon.

      I have no doubt a majority of English folk in Scotland voted NO. The vast majority of English folk in Scotland are retired. The retired Scottish folk voted in huge majority NO also and the actual reason we didn’t win the referendum was that not enough Scots voted YES. Simples

      I have little difficulty engaging with English folk in Argyll and it is as easy (or easier)to get them on board as it is to get some of our “loyalist” nutwits.
      Most of them react very well to a welcome and a chat.

      That is what we have to do.

    97. yesindyref2 says:

      or keep it (if they want) to extend our EEZ …

    98. Cactus says:

      Aye vote Yes 2 Leave this United Kingdom, awe here say aye!

      The Kingdom that is NOT a ‘united’ kingdom.

      Ah’ve returned to the east coast… 😉

      We will Remain here.

      Be Fresh.

    99. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 21 October, 2018 at 7:05 pm:

      ” … @Robert Peffers “or the pre-Treaty of Union subservience”.

      I’d hoped not to need to go into all that too deeply, yesindyref2, but here goes, (from memory), what I remember.

      The Norman conquest of England never happened in Scotland but the Normans got here just the same. They did so by the good old Scottish tradition of incomers assimilating and being absorbed for the benefit of established and incomers alike. We Scots are still doing this today. The Normans did not take Scotland by force but by marriage into the old Scots nobility.

      Both Bruce and Wallace were Norman Knights. Marjorie Countess of Carrick, was, from 1256 to 1292, the mother of Robert Bruce. His Norman side owned lands in both kingdoms and, as you mention the fact, I seem to remember that Scotland Yard was in fact Bruce Family Estate.

      This was a bit of a problem and at the same time a good thing. So Bruce owed his allegiance to the English monarchy for his estates in England but, as Scotland was an independent kingdom Bruce owed allegiance to the Scottish Monarchy.

      Initially Bruce was not king and so owed allegiance to both monarchies. He began by first supporting the English Monarchy but when his claim to the Scots crown emerged he had no option but to choose sides. Luckily he chose Scotland but under the current laws still owed allegiance for his English estates.

      ” … Well, yes indeed, perhaps not a lot of people know that the Kings of Scotland paid homage to the London one at times, in fact there were accomodations for when they came down to do so. The area became Scotland Yard for obvious reasons, and is now the HQ of RUSI. Just off Whitehall, near Trafalgar Square I think.”

      I could be wrong that Scotland Yard was part of the Bruce Estate but the Bruce Family certainly had estate nearby and several other parts of the English Kingdom. That was the old feudal system where the King owned everything and granted estate to Norman aristocrats for services rendered. Mostly the duty to fight for the King.

    100. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers
      The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA). Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs.[3] In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

      Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the European Community, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.[4]

      The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the Channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown dependencies.

      Yesindy2ref, The UK bought the feudal rights of the
      Isle of Man from the duke of Atholl for £70k in 1765, so post Indy we are due our share, bags the TT course ???

    101. Sarah says:

      @Robert Peffers at 8.12:

      I didn’t mean to imply that Nicola isn’t doing anything. I know she is and every day I wonder, and worry, about how she copes with the job whilst having to deal with all the “opposition” attacks etc etc.

      I have the greatest respect for you and can bear being shown up to the entire readership of Wings as someone who says things without evidence. Being the youngest of four is good training for learning how to accept criticism!

      But I am not completely daft, and my experience over 60 years tells me that you never can guarantee the outcome of an election so don’t wait for the magic moment. I think the state of society, democracy and the economy are already clearly worsening. Wings articles provide sufficient evidence, surely? Too many people are suffering for my liking.

      Not being in government, of course I don’t have all the information that the FM and advisers have but even SNP politicians can be wrong! Alex Salmond mentioned that the FM had been pessimistic at elections which the SNP then won and optimistic when we turned out to have lost the indyref – so no-one is infallible.

      And I am human – I wake up every day, as you no doubt do, longing for the chance to end the manipulation of the truth about Scotland by politicians, the media, the Establishment. I still remember the day that Mrs Thatcher was ousted – the sun shone, my heart rose, a weight was lifted and everyone was smiling. I can imagine that it will feel a million times better when the vote is won to restore Scotland to being itself, a normal country.

      I use the word “restore” rather than “gain” independence because to me it says Scotland is just returning to [pre-Union] normality, as of right, rather than being some newly formed entity. Just like Estonia with its “Day of Restoration of Independence”.

      I don’t want to lose another referendum but I don’t think Scotland’s position is comparable to that of Quebec. A recent article in The National held up Quebec as an example of losing a second referendum and support for independence falling away thereafter. But Canada has a much more varied constitutional arrangement than we do so Quebec is not in the same position as Scotland where the few powers Holyrood has can be taken away at any moment.

      In my view, the danger to our people warrants calling a referendum within months, not years. You don’t need me to remind you of the difference that having a date to focus on makes in people’s willingness to think and discuss. Nor that Yes gained over 15% support and has become a completely normal part of people’s thinking – and this time EU voters will be for Yes. So I think the odds are in favour of our winning.

      I could go on even longer about the dangers of waiting but this is already the longest comment I have ever made – and still no evidence to back any of it up!

    102. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 21 October, 2018 at 9:38 pm:

      ” …. The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA).”

      Thanks for the update, Lenny. I got my information while looking for other information and what was claimed was that the crown dependencies were all Associate Members. As I wasn’t actually looking for that information I ran no checks but took it as read.

      Yet it sticks in my memory the info came from an IOM local website. Your info makes more sense but I’m not going to side-track myself so will take just your word for it.

    103. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Sarah at 9.49

      You are exactly right. You can’t just wait for the right time. You have to do the work so you are ready when the right time suddenly presents itself and youy are ready to dart through that door when it opens.

    104. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers sorry forgot to mention that
      I got that info online

    105. Sarah says:

      @Dave M H: I am working! Just ask anyone in Lochbroom!

    106. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      Isle of Man would seem more appropriate as it was the Celts settled it

      The Isle of Man is a Crown dependency, so like the Channel Isles, wouldn’t be on the menu.

      Britain’s Overseas Territories are ….

      British Antarctic Territory
      British Indian Ocean Territory
      British Virgin Islands
      Cayman Islands
      Falkland Islands
      Pitcairn Islands
      St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
      South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
      Turks and Caicos Islands

      … some more enticing than others 🙂

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sarah says: 21 October, 2018 at 9:49 pm:

      ” … I didn’t mean to imply that Nicola isn’t doing anything. I know she is and every day I wonder, and worry, about how she copes with the job whilst having to deal with all the “opposition” attacks etc etc.”

      I understand, Sarah, I had just taken enough of the negativity that is getting more prevalent on Wings. If the most used pro-indy website becomes a hotbed of people showing too much impatience then the far great number of those who read but do not comment are going to have a very wrong impression.

      If we Wingers cannot show solidarity and give our backing to the FM/SG/SNP who will? We are all impatient, I’ve personally been supporting Indy since I was a schoolboy and I was a working man in 1952. That’s a long time to be impatient for independence and I’m now running out of time to ever live in an independent Scotland.

      However, I’ve never been so certain that the current SG/SNP are doing things just right as I am now.

      BTW: If Nicola is in danger of mental ill health due to strain and worry she has a great career before her if she leaves politics and takes up acting. She sometimes looks a little tired but never ever too worried. I’m sure of one thing, though, Nicola is in no way complacent and always very much alert.

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yes, your version sound smore accurate than mine. I cameat it from the other end, being interested in defence I checked out RUSI, finding out where they were and where they came from.

      I was thinking of you and the TT when I grabbed Man as our share 🙂

      I think many of us feel the same, it’s not a blind trust in Sturgeon, but her bus is going the right way at the moment. No detours mind, no bus breaking down, no stopping off for a few years!

    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      O/T re. Guy Verhofstadt warning against nationalism, protectionism and divisions. The comments responding to his tweet display a worrying degree of racists intolerance, IMHO. This, of course, was a major contribution to the vote to leave the EU.

      Multiculturalism in the UK: Has it any Future?

      Multiculturalism is multifaceted and embraces everything related with culture, from language to fashion, music, and design. “It’s not only sexual orientation, religion, and race. It’s families’ traditions first of all,” explained Zita Holbourne, trade union and community activist. “But when Cameron talked about failure, he was not referring to the multiculturalism of Oxbridge, but to non-white communities,” emphasized Holbourne.

      In fact, as a member of the audience points out, indigenous black British people are often thought, and therefore treated, as immigrants just because of the colour of their skin.

      Brexit and multiculturalism

      Brexit as a Backlash against ‘Loss of Privilege’ and Multiculturalism

    110. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 at 9:08 pm …. ” 450,000 people of English origin in Scotland … some not beyond the mama, dada stage and unable to vote.”

      Yesindyref2 a number of newspapers published data following Indyref1 that outlined that around 420,000 people from rUK voted with around 300,000 of them (72%) voting No. That number wouldn’t include under 16 year olds or in fact those who didn’t vote at all. On the other hand it would include people from Wales etc.

      Research was carried out by Edinburgh University, the findings of which may interest some on here. I can’t remember if it included the “numbers” in question and don’t have the time to look through it again right now. What I do remember being said was that if the referendum had been held a week later we would more than likely have won.

    111. Cactus says:

      Aweright Cameron, just thought I’d say hi.

      You are fucking excellent mate.

      See ye next time.


    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cheers mate. I’m just sick of being treated as a second class human.

    113. Cactus says:

      Same here.

      Scotland comes first.

      Let’s be 1st.

    114. Ghillie says:

      Macart @ 1.57pm

      If the UK establishment ever let on why they can’t let Scotland go, sorry, Scotland’s RESOURCES go, then support for Independence would rocket!

      In the mean time our good old masters will just keep stoking the Cringe.

    115. Ghillie says:

      Cameron B and Cactus, you are First Class, as are all the folk of Scotland =)

    116. Petra says:

      @ Galamcennalath at 10:09pm …… “List of overseas territories.”

      We’d need to check out the list of overseas territories galamcennalath to establish when they were initially under English / UK control, as an example the Cayman Islands in 1670.

      So what counts (Robert P)? Overseas territories gained (ripped off) after 1603 or 1707? Wouldn’t it be great if we could b*gger up their tax haven plans? Eh Daisy? If so this will count as another reason for them digging their claws right into us (Scotland) and hanging on for grim death.

    117. Cactus says:

      Love me Ghillie Xx.


    118. Ghillie says:

      Capella @ 2.10 pm

      Nicola’s video link of support to the ‘People’s Vote’ march was warm, sunny and straight to the point. Superb. As usual.

      And was very warmly received =)

      I bet it came as a lovely big surprise to more than just Kezia!

      I wonder what that was like for Miss Dugdale.

      Especially when folk around her mibee wouldn’t know or understand why she, as a Scot, wasn’t equally thrilled by her First Minister’s support?

      Cognitive dissonance indeed.

    119. Sarah says:

      @Robert Peffers: Nicola must be made of Forth Bridge steel. I’ve no idea how she does it while staying a normal, straightforward, decent human being. For these qualities alone I admire her hugely, but add to that her brain and articulacy – very impressive.

      I understood why you berated me so nae worries. I daresay I’ll live it down!

      @yesindyref2: fingers crossed that the bus arrives in time!!

    120. mr thms says:

      By voting remain, Scotland is not getting nothing. It is getting it’s independence.

      Having a ‘transitional arrangement’ between the UK and the EU after Brexit, resolves an issue described in this article from May 2014 about how Article 50 facilitates the internal enlargement of the EU.

    121. Welsh Sion says:

      Has anyone taken the i newspaper to task over this quote with regard to the Billy Connolly story?

      ““I don’t believe in having more layers of government that ordinary people will have to pay for,” he said ahead of the referendum in which Scotland rejected independence by 55 percent.”

      Scotland rejected independence by 55 percent? Grrrrrrrrrr!

    122. yesindyref2 says:

      I remember being quite sceptical about that report when it came out after Indy ref and at a time the SNP membership was going through the roof, and wondered if its intent was to foster division. Universities took no side of course, but there was a lot of Indy bad stuff came out of Edinburgh. I certainly wouldn’t trust that report one single solitary inch.

    123. TD says:

      Terence callachan at 8:56 p.m.

      Your proposal that English people should not have a vote in indyref2 raises a few issues. How are you going to decide who is English and who is Scottish? Is it where you are born that counts? I was born in Edinburgh but my elder brother was born in London. We have both lived in Scotland since he was about two. Does that mean I should get a vote but he should not? My father was Scottish, but my mother was English. Am I Scottish? Do I get a vote? But hang on, my mother’s mother was Scottish. Does that make it OK for me to vote?

      Even once you have decided what the rules are, how are you going to implement them? There is no register of “Scottish” voters (however you have defined them) – there is only a register of voters. So you will need to go through a process of creating a register of people who meet your criteria. How do you propose to do that? And what about people of Scottish origin who now live in England or any other foreign country. Will they get a vote? Again, how will you create the register of voters for them? Is it just English people who will not get a vote? What about the Irish? Or the French?

      The Scotland that you seem to be suggesting would be exclusive rather than inclusive. I don’t want to live in a Scotland like that. Your proposal is both immoral and undemocratic. It would disenfranchise large numbers of people who have made their lives in Scotland and have contributed to Scottish society. It also happens to be completely impractical. The approach taken last time is correct – if you live in Scotland you are part of Scottish society and should have a vote.

    124. Ghillie says:

      John Lamb @ 2.27 pm

      ” C’mon Kezia…nearly there. Find the light switch” 🙂

      I like it =)

      T Jenny @ 2.47 pm Hi!

      ”Scotland – Big enough, rich enough, smart enough, and f**kin’ had enough!” 🙂

      Some things are just worth repeating =)

    125. Ghillie says:

      K1 @ 4.51 pm

      THAT is a brilliant analogy 🙂

    126. TJenny says:

      Ghillie – cheers, I think I might get it on a t-shirt. 🙂

    127. Ron Maclean says:

      From ‘About us’

      The site advocates Scottish independence, but is not affiliated or connected in any way to the SNP, and neither gives to or receives money from the party, nor indeed any other party. We have an inquiring mind, and welcome intelligent contributions from all sides of the political debate.

      Got something worthwhile to say about Scotland’s future? Try us.

    128. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values

      The story of the referendum is usually told through geography: areas that had been left behind by globalisation voted to Leave. But this tells us only so much, writes Eric Kaufmann. Knowing where Leave voters live does not, in itself, explain why individuals chose to vote a certain way. Here, he demonstrates the importance of invisible differences between groups, and argues that it was primarily values that motivated voters, not economic inequality.

      Brexit: how cognitive psychology helps us make sense of the vote

      The Relationship between the Brexit Vote and Individual Predictors of Prejudice: Collective Narcissism, Right Wing Authoritarianism, Social Dominance Orientation

    129. Thepnr says:


      An excellent post, there is nothing more the British state would love than to “prove” than Scottish Nationalists hate the English.

      They have pushed this line for decades that supporting Independence for Scotland is anti-English. Now we all know that to be a total fabrication but unfortunately many of our fellow Scots do not.

      Look just today at the Billy Connolly story in The Times where he states “One thing I’ve never had any interest in is hating England and the English.”

      He thinks that applies to supporters of Independence because that is the myth that has been peddled for all these years.

      An anecdote from just prior to the referendum, I was having a quiet pint in a small pub in Dundee when two workmen from the west coast asked if they could share the table.

      It was a father and son living in digs there and talk got onto the referendum. It became obvious that both were intending to vote No but I carried on with why I thought that a Yes vote was best for the people of Scotland.

      The father was more accepting than the son who said during the conversation “would you support Hitler then?” I totally ignored this, to do otherwise I thought would have been pointless. What I did instead was give the father my email address and handed him a Wee Blue Book.

      He never did email me, the two of them were persuadable and I would hope by now have changed their mind and will vote Yes next time.

    130. mike cassidy says:

      Worth reposting this info on brexit and overseas territories.

      The Falkland Islands


    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      This myth that the indy movement is all about hating the English has to be squashed. Cognitive psychology can help.

      Making the truth stick & the myths fade: Lessons from cognitive psychology

    132. mike cassidy says:

      And this is a general look at brexit and the overseas territories from a year ago.

    133. K1 says:

      Cheers Ghillie…. 🙂

    134. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @4.10pm

      The Infamous Vow.

      I think the vow at the next referendum will say we vow to honour the vow we made at the last referendum and of course there are people who would believe all this crap.

    135. Cubby says:

      Too many roberts. Robert Peffers Robert J Sutherland and Robert the Bruce. All very confusing.

    136. Cubby says:


      An excellent post. T Callachan has had his argument refuted previously by others who have made your points and other points against his post. You have to wonder why he keeps posting the same point of view but does not bother to try to counter any objections to his post.

    137. Big Phil says:

      mr peffers …you are brilliant, im still studying scottish history but you always give more, thank you..
      As regards the falklands and gib …Indy first people the rest is after.

    138. Petra says:

      ‘Thought for the Day’ from those ‘Scots’ savants McFadden and Whitehead.’

      ”If only because of his name, McFadden’s roots are clearly, if distantly, connected to Scotland’s long struggle for independence. The words of his best-known hit are perfect for the next Yes parade to sing and to sway their funky hips to:

      There’s been so many things that’s held us down.
      But now it looks like things are finally comin’ around.
      I know we’ve got, a long long way to go,
      and where we’ll end up, I don’t know.
      But we won’t let nothin’ hold us back,
      we’re putting ourselves together,
      we’re polishing up our act!
      If you felt we’ve been held down before,
      I know you’ll refuse to be held down anymore!

      Don’t you let nothing, nothing,
      Stand in your way!
      I want ya’ll to listen, listen,
      to every word I say, every word I say!

      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’re on the move!
      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’ve got the groove!

      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’re on the move!
      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’ve got the groove!

      I know you know someone that has a negative vow,
      and if you’re trying to make it they only push you aside.
      They really don’t have, nowhere to go.
      Ask them where they’re going, they don’t know.
      But we won’t let nothin’ hold us back,
      we’re gonna put ourselves together,
      we’re gonna polish up our act!
      And if you’ve ever been held down before,
      I know you’ll refuse to be held down anymore!

      Don’t you let nothing, nothing,
      Stand in your way!
      I want ya’ll to listen, listen,
      to every word I say, every word I say!

      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’re on the move!
      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’ve got the groove!

      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’re on the move!
      Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now!
      We’ve got the groove!”


      Trump at it again.

      George Kerevan: ‘The post-World War Two nuclear world order is broken.’

      ..”To be sure, Putin has stretched the treaty rules by announcing the development of supersonic cruise missiles and by deploying mobile Iskander-M missile launchers – capable of firing either conventional or nuclear warheads over a range of 500km – to Kaliningrad on the Baltic. However, in this new nuclear arms race, the US has made all the first moves.”…

      ”Why has Trump announced that he plans to end the treaty? Partly as a stunt just before the US mid-term elections. Partly to draw media attention away from his support for Saudi Arabia in the brutal assassination of Jamal Khashoggi. And because he wants to clear the decks for America’s own, long-planned expansion of first-strike nuclear weapons, while pinning the blame on Russia.”


      ‘The persistence of class as Saudi elites find you can kill the poor, the masses, but you dare not kill ‘one of us’.’

      …”The Saudi elites have been killing and killing, unconstrained by Western objections, for centuries. They have recently killed thousands of Yemeni men, women and children using UK and US weapons and even guided by UK ‘technicians’ on the ground. They daily, flog, stone or decapitate, ‘adulterous’ women. They even crucify. Liberal critics in the West write passionately and critically but nothing ever happens.

      Suddenly, however, after they kill a journalist employed by the Washington Post and who is a member of one of Saudi Arabia’s aristocratic families, a bloodline in the sand has been crossed. Last night on Newsnight, we heard it described as the ‘gravest’ development and as a ‘nadir’ in Western relationships with the Kingdom. Thousands of ordinary people dead yet the killing of a single journalist is the worst, the lowest point?

      Why do the members of our media elite think this?”…

    139. Petra says:

      ‘Scottish Tories in new threat of rebellion on Brexit.’

      …”Questioned if there was unanimity among the Scottish Conservative MPs for this view, he (Douglas Ross) said he understood they could not support such a deal and would, if necessary, vote against the Government.

      If the party’s 13 MPs vote against the Brexit deal, it would lead to the Government losing its House of Commons majority for the vote.”…


      ‘Red carpet rolls out for Netflix’s Outlaw King premiere in Scotland.’

      ”The biggest budget feature film ever to be produced in Scotland by home-grown talent received its Scottish premiere in Edinburgh last night.”..

      ”The production was set and shot entirely in Scotland, and employed a large number of Scottish-based craft and technical talent and utilised more than 45 different locations including Craigmillar Castle (Edinburgh), Linlithgow Palace, Berwick Bridge, Talisker (Skye), Glencoe, Doune Castle, Mugdock Country Park (Milngavie), Coral Beach (Skye) and the Quiraing (Skye).

      Outlaw King has also hosted Scotland’s biggest ever single film trainee initiative. Some 35 trainees have experienced working across the creative, technical and business areas of the production”…


      ‘Unique illustrated book on Declaration of Arbroath hits funding goal.’

      ”The intention of the project is to establish a broader understanding of the Declaration of Arbroath outside of academia. The book will bring the Declaration to life, highlighting its cultural significance as well as its contemporary relevance. It will examine ideas of community and people-power, and ask what freedom means in today’s world.”


      ‘How the Jacobites could have won a rising and achieved independence in 1715.’

    140. Nana says:

      When you take the Zuckerberg shilling, you’re leaving your principles behind you

      Latest #BrexitRepublic: @tconnellyRTE & @colmomongain on Brussels summit fallout: the backstop, the transition & reports of a German “wobble”.

    141. Nana says:

      For anyone who missed Nicola Sturgeon’s address to the PeoplesVoteMarch.

      Brexit: Jargon-busting guide to the key terms

      Warning, distressing
      Take a look what Saudi Arabia have done to Yemen.

    142. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Scottish Tory MPs in threat to vote down government over fishing rights.

      Aye Right!!! The day that lot do anything which might hurt themselves, or, more-importantly for them, their precious party, will be a first.

      That lot are a bunch of “Toom Tabards”.

    143. Smallaxe says:

      Good Morning, Nana.

      Thank you, for your lovely links, the sun is rising so I can take off my garlic necklace which is a necessity during the times of darkness in Mundellshire. Here, be bloodsuckers!! #Pinney’s
      Kettle’s on!

    144. Nana says:

      Morning Smallaxe,

      “garlic necklace which is a necessity during the times of darkness in Mundellshire”

      thanks for the laugh 🙂

    145. Clootie says:

      Billy Connoly is going to mibee consider the idea of Independence….and somehow people see this as a conversion?
      We don’t need someone who has embraced the Union, praised the Union, championed the Union to join our side…because he hasn’t…it is a Gerry Hassan type piece of waffle to cover the big BUT that always leaves a negative sour taste.
      All he is doing is staying on the fence in order to fool everyone.

    146. Petra says:

      Great links Nana.

      Looks as though the BBC is going right down the stank now. Thank God we’ve got a leader in Scotland who acts as a moral compass unlike the Cleggs, Davidsons, Mays and Trumps of the World.

      @ Nana says at 7:08 am


      No mention of Scottish Independence under ”future threats”, lol. Will the kakistocracy continue after we’re gone?

      @ Nana at 7:11am ….


      @ yesindyref2 says at 11:07 pm …. ”Petra, I remember being quite sceptical about that report when it came out after Indy ref and at a time the SNP membership was going through the roof, and wondered if its intent was to foster division. Universities took no side of course, but there was a lot of Indy bad stuff came out of Edinburgh. I certainly wouldn’t trust that report one single solitary inch.”

      Foster division? Really? Most people seemed to think that the research findings were extremely valid and reliable (in line with the outcome of other research projects), yesindyref2, and includes data that could help us to focus and prove to be helpful in winning Indyref2.

    147. Nana says:

      Morning Petra,

      “Looks as though the BBC is going right down the stank now”

      The bbc has stunk for a long time, hopefully soon to be flushed away 🙂

    148. Penderyn says:

      that’s par for the course with labour. In Wales they voted en bloc against having the “peoples vote”, but individually come out on twitter spouting vehemently that they have alwayse been in favour of the peoples vote and have even campaigned to have one. However, as soon as this contradiction is highlighted, they go very quiet.

    149. Macart says:


      Ta for the links Nana.

      Hope you’re keeping well.

    150. Petra says:

      @ Nana saysat 7:21 am …. ”For anyone who missed Nicola Sturgeon’s address to the PeoplesVoteMarch – video.”

      I read that thousands of Scots attended the march and that Nicola Sturgeon got a massive, rousing ovation (must have stuck in Dugdale’s, et al, craw). She’s a leader to be proud of and how lucky are we to have her, especially at such a time in our history.

      I wonder why the BBC and STV made no mention of her speech, better still broadcast it? That’s the BBC that can give people like Farage and Bannon a platform. No problem. No problem with promoting racists and right wing fascists at every turn.


      @ Nana …. ”Warning, distressing. Take a look what Saudi Arabia have done to Yemen.”

      God almighty talk about ”mans inhumanity to man that makes countless thousands mourn.” Absolutely horrific and truly heartbreaking Nana, but what’s going to be done about it? Will Westminster stop selling Saudi arms? No way, for one they’ve got little else to sell / export and seem to thrive, relish, on their warmongering, as per their track record. In fact over the last 20 years or so Westminster seems to be trying to outdo the Great British Empire’s genocidal ”achievements.”

      Angela Merkel has frozen sales of arms to Saudi because of the Jamal Khashoggi murder. Tragic, but at the end of the day … one man.

      Every solitary day we find another reason, often more than one, for getting out of this h*llish Union. How much more will it take for thousands of Scots to start seeing the bl**dy light?

    151. Abulhaq says:

      There is more animosity in England’s attitudes towards Scotland than vice versa. Historically England has been the preditor and the ‘abuser’. England is the auld enemie for a reason. Survival has dictated Scotland’s response, not naked expansionist aggression.
      Telling the historic truth about Scoto-English relations is not hatred of England and its people.
      Only our return to sovereignty and independence will reset the unhealthy political balance. Although, it may take longer to reset certain colonial English attitudes towards Scots, Scotland and our national cultures.

    152. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart, thank you I’m doing ok, a little frazzled helping with a couple of projects, there never seems to be enough time in the day!
      Hope you are well yourself Sam.

      Last links for today

      Scots Tories against fishing policy extension

      Two years on…..incompetent shower of —–
      May on her feet in Commons later – huge amount of unhappiness around after Cabinet conference calls over the weekend – doesn’t seem to be a policy that can get past Cabinet let alone backbenches

    153. Macart says:


      Been better Nana. Needing a lie down about now. It’s been a busy autumn (as expected) and once I’m done minding the store for Paul, I think just reading from the sidelines for a while is in order. 🙂

    154. Dorothy Devine says:

      Petra , you missed greasy Brewers comment about ‘ Nicola sturgeons wee video’ while badgering Ian Blackford.

      Patronising prat that he is!

      Nana , thanks for the links .Yemen is heartbreaking and the Kingdom gets away with it. I remember many years ago reading that Osama Bin Laden’s vowed intent was to bring down the House of Saud – I am assuming that that made him public enemy number one for the Kingdom and their pals in the White House.

      Does anyone else get the impression that Westminster and Washington are searching around in a desperate bid to start another hide -the -mess – we -are in – war? I trust neither governments and have not done so for many years.

    155. Nana says:


      Perfectly understandable Sam. We all need a break now and then, to recharge and just give to the brain a rest 🙂

    156. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      Once more we have to look to the Irish media to get an accurate report on Brexit talks.

      That says so much about the state UK media is in.

      The Irish reiterate that the backstop is essential and has been agreed. The UK should not be talking of reneging on commitments made. But what is interesting is the point out that if one already agreed item is up for renegotiation, then why not other parts? If you don’t move forward, then you risk going back to the beginning.

    157. Sharny Dubs says:

      English in Scotland, who can vote?

      As I’ve said before, one of the criteria for voting is if you can say



    158. Can any of us we really be that surprised anymore by Dugdale’s volte face in regard to her now supporting a second EU referendum.

      Of course, like the rest of her Lsbour brethren and the other British nationalists,she will see no contradiction in still being opposed to a second Scottish independence referendum being held.

    159. Ghillie says:

      Petra @ 8.37 am

      Our own Scottish Government has decided to, in effect, sanction Saudi Arabia over the disappearance of journalist Jamal Kashoggi.

      ‘The Scottish Government announced plans earlier this month to appoint five new in-market energy specialists in countries seen as having significant growth opportunities for energy supply chain exports from Scotland.’ (STV online news, 18 hours ago)

      Including Saudi Arabia.

      ‘But recruitment for the Saudi post will now not go ahead.’

      It is a start.

      And our Scottish Government is taking a stand. Again.

    160. Gullane No4 says:

      My wife is an English SNP voter.

      She can say Drumandrochit [sp] Milngavie and Ae does she have a vote?

    161. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I went, via the Rev’s twitter feed, to reading Magnus Linklater’s blatant attempt to get a knighthood, via his latest Times piece boosting the Maybot.

      He asks I Nicola Sturgeon has ever faced the level fo invective and hate which the Maybot is now facing.

      Clearly, this former Hootsmon editor has stopped reading his former paper, and in particular the btl comments from the Unionist green ink brigade such as “History Woman.”

      Time and again, when I confront the many Unionists I encounter at Scottish rugby matches, and point-out the failings of their precious Tories, and the many wrongs being visited on Scotland by Westminster, they agree, but add: “Aye, maybe you’re right, but, I hate that Nicola Sturgeon and yon Alex Salmond.”

      I don’t think May faces that kind of mindless hatred. She is disliked, because, she is clearly incompetent.

    162. Brian Powell says:

      It’s weird watching the pretence negotiations are still happening over the Brit border in Ireland. They haven’t got an answer, no matter how long the extension.

      The Brits are hoping their incompetence will be overtaken by events as yet unforeseen.

    163. Ghillie says:

      Thanks for the links Nana =)

      Happened to hear Bertie Armstrong, Tory in Fishing Federation chap, speaking on BBC Scotland radio early this morning re his lot would vote down brexit (and effectively bring down his own party’s government?! Really?) if Scotland (HAH) had to stay in the CFP a minute longer than end of 2020 – a few months more WOULD NOT DO!

      That was incredible enough.

      But then he, and the daft wee boy on the wireless, BOTH mislead the listeners by stating that Fergus Ewing wanted ALL (ie for the whole of the UK) fishing rights to be in Scotland’s control (I think because Scotland has 65% of the waters – actually that mibee would have been a reasonable suggestion on the part of Mr Ewing)

      The idea of devolved matters for Scotland being properly returned to Scotland seems to go way over Bertie’s clearly empty head.

      As for the naughty wee nyaff on the mic…

      Ach same old same old.

      Bottoms of barrels scraped bare.

      Their panic is now properly endemic.

    164. Packhorse Pete says:

      Socrates MacSporran @9.37

      “Aye, maybe you’re right, but, I hate that Nicola Sturgeon and yon Alex Salmond.”

      When I get this stuff, I always say, “Fair enough – but who do you like?”. Rarely get an answer, or perhaps a mumbling “they’re all the same….”. So then I ask “Why single AS or NS out then?”

      If they don’t like the politics, OK. But it’s easier to have a go at an individual than analyse the policies.

    165. Brian Powell says:

      Socrates MacSporran @9.37

      “Aye, maybe you’re right, but, I hate that Nicola Sturgeon and yon Alex Salmond.”

      It would be useful to keep a record of how old the people are who say this.

    166. jfngw says:

      The Conservatives in Scotland find their voice, unfortunately they are demanding that Scotland has the hardest EU exit. They want Scotland, which is predicted to be the hardest hit by it, to be on its knees as this would preserve the union is their belief. They prefer devastation of Scottish business (except possibly for 5 Tory families) rather than any threat to the union. They hate Scotland that much!

      Scottish Conservatives, standing up against Scotland’s interests.

    167. Ken500 says:

      Looks like May is on the way out as predicted as the architect of Brexit. Her part in the cruel, coarse total part in unnecessary austerity cutting all essential services. On the ropes along with the rest of them. The muckers. Will not be long before a GE comes. The wreckers can’t carry in much longer. Starving, sanctioning and killing vulnerable innocent people. They are up to the neck in it.

      They will be other nuclear Treaties before long. None ofvthem can afford it. It willl wreck their economy and any attempts to improve their domestic economy, . US spends on the military $611Billions ( Pop 380Million) The second highest in the world. Pro rata A third of all the world spend, Russia spends $66Billion (pop 150Million) . A much less spend pro rata. China spend even less pro rata. They are not the warmongers. It is the West. Now and historically.

      The warmongers are the Saudis. Thec highest spend in thev pro rata). Saudi spends $69 Billion on the military including, the internal security. (Pop 40Million) Then the US and their poodle UK,. None of them can afford it. They are all bankrupt because of the illegal wars. Displacing and killing millions. They are destroying the world economy. It is indefensible and unwarranted. Intolerable.

      They want to keep control of nuclear weapons extended into space. How monumental foolish and unaffordable is that. They are ssctioning, starving and unlawfulm killing people on earth. Now they want to extend it to space. The US funds NATO so tries to control it. Not fo much longer it can’t afford it,

      Saudi gets all their weapons from US/ repress others including their own population. Saudi is the most absolute, despot monarchy in the world. It has to modernise . It is going bankrupt. It has already lost absolute control of it’s Oil interest. It has been sold off in shares, although the owners retain most control. The modernising Apple? watch caught them out. Murdering parasites for all to see, He was one of them until recently. In the pass few years. It caused an awful stink and stench of corruption. Including the corruption of Saudi and US/UK complicity, Dead in the thick of it. Alarming,

      It is from Saudi sect that the 911 terrorists came and were financed. Bush then invaded Iraq. Responsible for causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW.

      Israel is an apartheid State. Saudi is the most absolute, despot monarchy. Both funded and supported by the US/UK. Without US/UK support and monies they would not survive. They would have to change. None of the policies of these two States would ever be acceptable. In the US or UK. Both Governments are totally hypocritical, thieving, killing liars.

      Looks like it will be oh Jeremy Corbyn soon, How will these turn out as disasterous as the last? More support for Indpendence and another IndyRef look totally on the cards. Everyone’s dream is coming true at last. Just a little patience.

      The evil, parasite wrecker unionists freaks in Westminster can get their unauthorised nuclear weapons out of Scotland. They were withdrawn under protest from Greenham Common (20 mins from) London in 1992. Get them out and Scotland is not paying for them. Get to hell with these hellush weapons. Scotland wants none if it.

      Putin is a hero. Anti war. Since the 1990’s 150Million people have been released to self determination and self government in Russia (USSR). The Russian (USSR) population has halved to 150Million. They had to embrace Perestroika and glasnost. Openness and freedom. Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin. They had to introduce reforms to aid the economy. There is still a way to go. Not helped by the negative sanctions put on Russia by the West to try and destabilise Russia and the region with the illegal wars on the Russian borders. Russia 150 million people spends $66Billion on the military. Russia is not the warmonger.

      Russia saved the West in the 11WW. 26Million Russians died and the country was devaststed. Russia took the most hit to defeat the Germans. Many of surrounding States fought with the Germans. The reason at that time Russia invaded to protect it’s borders. The 11WW was started to protect Poland. Poland was handed over to Russian dominance at Yakta by the US and the UK. The 11WW was a waste of time. A complete and utter failure. Millions died for nothing and the world was devastated. The EU was formed to stop starvation and wars in Europe.

      The Westminster unionists want to continue wars and hardship in the world killing, maiming and starving millions of people. That’s why Scotland needs Independence now in order to stop them. Now is the time to get out of this awful destructive Union. That has ruined Scotland’s economy, rights and fredoms for years. Putin supported Scotland right to self determination and freedom. So does the EU and other countries, They will help Scotland achieve it’s goal of Democrscy after nearly 100 years of disasterous Westminster unionist rule. Now is the time. Enough is enough.

    168. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Brian Powell @ 9.54am

      Mostly 50+, but, the odd younger Tory does subscribe to this belief.

    169. Ken500 says:

      Divisions from Edinburgh publications? Yesindyref2 has been going on publication Herald (or National) slagging off the SNP and ‘boring’ administration. It is require by Parliamentary Law as any other budiness. The format is required by Law. That has been explained many times but is still discussed by the sleekit exhibitionist. Letters making the headlines for another unexplained SNP hit. Trying to make a name for itself. Total hypocrite.

      The Herald will be the next to go. Along with it’s undemocratic layout. The Nstional, will totally take over to replace it. The ignorance of these publication is quite astounding. The Press leading to it’s own demise. Cutting their own jobs and employment. Beyond incompetence printing a load of rubbish. Total delusion. Habitual liars and sychophants of the establishment. The non Dom tax evading owners who are not fit to run a bath. Never mind inform the public. More interested in ilegally robbing the public purse than relaying any reliable information, The dirty rotten liars who think they are the story.

    170. Breeks says:

      Brian Powell says:
      22 October, 2018 at 9:54 am
      Socrates MacSporran @9.37

      “Aye, maybe you’re right, but, I hate that Nicola Sturgeon and yon Alex Salmond.”

      It would be useful to keep a record of how old the people are who say this.

      Be more productive to challenge them to articulate why they dislike Salmond or Sturgeon, and watch them flounder in waffle trying to substantiate their prejudice.

      For the most part, I would bet a significant component of their “dislike” has been conceived and propagated by the deluge of propaganda, media manipulation and distortion of the truth which we have to suffer in Scotland on a daily basis.

      A great deal of this manipulation is subtle, low key, and the overall effect is pernicious over time. I don’t want to call it thought control, but never forget when Independence doesn’t get fair representation in the British media or outnumbered on a panel, it is quite, quite deliberate.

      When the far right Brexiteers like Farage or Johnson, or Fascists like Bannon get such glowing promotion, or even numpties like the Scottish Tories both red and blue get an easy ride through an interview, – that too is quite, quite, deliberate.

      “So you hate Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon do you? Why? Please tell me. Was it your idea? Or are you afraid to admit your own susceptibility to propaganda? Come on, I mean it. Tell me what Alex or Nicola actually did to warrant your visceral hatred….”.

      “Aye. Away you go, and stop reading the Daily Express and getting your news from the BBC.”

    171. Ken500 says:


      Damn prex text,

      Damn Apple/Microsoft/Facebook. Rotten to the core. Trying to destroy the world economy. The EU going to face them down for their corruption and not paying their lawful taxes. Neglect of data Laws. Billionaires protecting Millionaires illegally buying elections supporting total corruption.,To destroy the world economy. Enough is never enough for these harmful parasites. Causing harm and corruption in the world. They just bad will be stopped. Clegg one of the greatest, greedy hypocrite of all. LibDem enablers. Rotten to the core.

    172. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – I don’t think the Obama regime was any more libertarian than the Trump regime. Here’s a Real News interview about the lunatic Nikki Haley, US ambassador to the UN. She is a seriously deranged individual. But her predecessor, Samantha Powers, was just as bad, and, indeed Susan Rice before that.

      Seems that their main ambition is to become Secretary of State – or even President in the case of Haley. So for that they need to impress the Christian Right. Chris Hedges has lived among the Christian Right and unequivocally describes them as fascist.

      Real News 21 mins

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the British nationalist’s knee-jerk hatred of all things indy. This is a cultured response and indicates an internalisation of the One Nation ideology. These people are not cognative beings, they are slaves to ideology. Again, cognitive psychology can help in understanding these poor souls.

      Reconstructing the history of nationalist cognition and everyday nationhood from personal accounts


      New approaches to nationalism have focused on the role of human agency within nation?building structures (nationhood from below, everyday nationalism, experiences of nation, personal nationalism, etc.). However, the development of specific methodologies is still scarce. This paper proposes the use of personal accounts (mostly journals and autobiographies, but not only) as sources for qualitative historical research in nations and nationalism. Departing from the concepts of ‘identity’, ‘experience’ and ‘memory’, it is argued that, although very problematic, these sources are a valid path to the study of nations as they are: social phenomena of discursive nature and political frame, whose real agents are individuals. When these agents narrate their lives employing the nation as a meaningful category, they are not producing mere second?hand reflections of superior and prior realms, but are performing microhistorical acts of nation?making that are significant for understanding any case of nation?building. The paper includes an empirical example using British personal accounts from the Age of Revolutions (c.1780–1840).

    174. Petra says:

      @ Ghillie says at 9:24 am …. ”Petra – Our own Scottish Government has decided to, in effect, sanction Saudi Arabia over the disappearance of journalist Jamal Kashoggi…. It is a start. And our Scottish Government is taking a stand. Again.”

      Yeah doing the right thing as usual Ghillie. Still waiting and waiting and waiting on Westminster doing something about this outrage. Instead we’ve got their state controlled lackey, the BBC foghorn, broadcasting the horrendous suffering in the Yemen, whilst not giving one mention to the fact that Westminster is totally complicit in this misery and the murder of children.


      BBC2’s programme ‘Parliament this Week’ gave the count down to their TOP story and lo and behold …. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 …. it was another showing of Tory (Sir) Paul Beresford attempting to humiliate SNP MP David Linden with no disciplinary measures being taken by the Deputy Speaker (Sir) Lindsay Hoyle.

      ‘Conservative MP can’t understand the Scottish accent.’

      Note ‘Frustrated Brit’ with the Union Rag. Not half as frustrated as us.


      Tory MP Paul Beresford: ..”Has spoken in 14 debates in the last year — well below average amongst MPs.

      Has received answers to 3 written questions in the last year — below average amongst MPs.”


      SNP MP David Linden: .. ”Has spoken in 166 debates in the last year — well above average amongst MPs.

      Has received answers to 206 written questions in the last year — well above average amongst MPs.

    175. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 22 October, 2018 at 10:03 am:

      ” … Mostly 50+, but, the odd younger Tory does subscribe to this belief.”

      Now here’s the thing.

      I have personally met plenty who claim to hate both SNP leaders/FMs. Yet I cannot recall a single one who could explain why they held such hate. Some tried but made absolutely no logical sense. It usually boiled down to, “Jist because”.

      That makes this whole thing as nothing but unreasoned hatred. My best guess is quite simply it is successful, subliminal, brainwashing by the Westminster Propaganda Wing.

      Why else could anyone hate someone, they probably have never met, without having any actual reason to hate them so much.

    176. CameronB Brodie says:

      Social Psychology can also help provide an understand of the processes involved in the creation of cultural nationalisms, such as British nationalism. Cultural nationalisms tends to be bad, mk, as they tend towards exclusionary authoritarianism (see Brexit).

      The SAGE Handbook of Nations and Nationalism

    177. Cubby says:

      Socrates MacSporran@9.37am

      Some of the btl people on the Scotsman should be in straight jackets and the nutter History Woman most definitely should be.

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      I reckon her mind has been poisoned by her topic of academic study, i.e. Nazi Germany. Let’s just say her opinion is right-wing and reactionary, to put it mildly. 😉

    179. Fred says:

      David Linden is the best MP we’ve ever had in this neck of the woods. We could do with him in Holyrood.

    180. Fred says:

      No criticism of our present MSP (also excellent!) intended!

    181. Cubby says:

      CameronB Brodie@11.05am

      Maybe she has been brain damaged.

      PS. keep posting as you see fit. I don’t see what the problem is with some people. If not interested in your post just scroll past. I read some or your posts others I scroll past. What’s the big deal.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      What’s the big deal, indeed? Btw, I wasn’t joking about me being brain damaged. Gonna lay off the casual stereotyping and abalism, please.

    183. Ken500 says:

      Billy Connelly is having a laugh. He is just so very, very funny. In old age he has stopped living in the past. He is welcome to it. He did put Scotland on the map with zany humour. Allow a senior the benefit of the doubt.At least he has come on board at last. It has been publicised encouraging others to follow. A win, win after all. His revelation should be appreciated. Along with his absolute sense of humour. He is a humane personality. Disapproving about poverty and injustice. Pity about the Tory Royal connect just the same but no one is perfect. He has seen the light at last and is helping the Independence cause. It does not matter when people change over. Just that they do.

      How people who support Independence for Scotland can be in unionists Parties or voters. It is an oxymoron. Every one of these Parties are totally against Independence and democracy for Scotland. In any way shape or form. These people are voting against their own interest and they are self harming. It will be more difficult to get Independence if they keep on supporting and voting for these Parties.

      Foreign policy is reserved to Westminster unionist. This makes it difficult for the Scottish Gov to do anything to disapprove Saudi Arabia etc. Even arms sales except to note disapproval.

    184. Lenny Hartley says:

      Socrates not just elderley tories who hate the FM, my neighbour late thirtish labour told me that she would gladly go to Cornton Vale if she got a hold of her, other 40/50 ish Labourites down here hate her with a vengence as well.

    185. Haven’t had time to follow all the threads recently- apologies if this has already been posted – worth a read.

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Political psychology can help undo the ideological programing and conditioned reasoning that have helped create British nationalism.

      Introduction: Theoretical Foundations of Political Psychology

      Abstract and Keywords

      Political psychology applies what is known about human psychology to the study of political behavior, focusing on individuals within a specific political system. Topics such as terrorism, public support for fascism, and ethnocentrism are commonly studied within political psychology to gain better traction on the perennial question of how well citizens are equipped to handle their democratic responsibilities. The chapter provides a broad overview of the field of political psychology and introduces the topics covered in the Oxford Handbook of Political Psychology. The authors discuss the underpinnings of political behavior in broad psychological approaches such as biopolitics; personality, cognitive, and affective psychology; and intergroup relations to underscore ways in which political behavior deviates from the predictions of rational choice theory. In sum, the authors conclude that psychology provides unique and valuable insight into the dynamics of elite decision-making and mass politics.

      Keywords: political psychology, elite decision-making, political behavior, public opinion, rational choice, biopolitics, personality, political cognition, political affect, political socialization, intergroup relations

    187. Petra says:

      @ Fred says at 11:12 at …. ”David Linden is the best MP we’ve ever had in this neck of the woods. We could do with him in Holyrood.”

      Yeah he’s a brilliant politician and what a hard worker. Won’t be long now Fred until they all head home, to dancing in the streets, and there will be jobs aplenty for them (plus those who were ousted previously) whether it be in Holyrood, at the EU or in our Embassies Worldwide, and so on. He has the capacity to reach out to people that the Unionist numpties at Westminster rub up the wrong way: People abroad who’ll understand what he’s saying. What about the job of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs?


      ‘SNP MP David Linden in appeal to ‘fellow Glaswegian’ Rouhani over Iran’s human rights record.’

      …”In a striking speech, he (David Linden) went on: “There was quite a lot of initial excitement when Hassan Rouhani was elected as president of Iran in 2013, not just because he was seen as a moderate but because he was an honorary Glaswegian, having studied in my home city at Glasgow Caledonian University.

      During his time in Glasgow, he completed the thesis for his PhD on the flexibility of Shariah with reference to the Iranian experience. His thesis, which is still available at the library today, can be taken out and read.

      Anyone who takes the opportunity to read President Rouhani’s thesis will be struck by the first line in the abstract, which states that ‘no laws in Islam are immutable’. His thesis demonstrates that a younger Rouhani was willing to embrace a more liberal and moderate approach to society.

      So, from one Glaswegian to another, my message to President Rouhani is this – embrace that moderate tone and drastically improve human rights for your people.”…

    188. Brian Powell says:

      I got an email, it appears to be from Wings saying confirm your Subscription to Wings Over Scotland.

      Anyone else get this? I don’t have a subscription, just do donations.

    189. Ken500 says:

      The Bruce (grandfather?) was willing to have Scotland lands divided into three. To each contestant for the Scottish throne. Primogeniture. When the Maid of Norway died. It was intended that the Maid of Norway would be betrothed to the English heir, Edward 11. To unite the kingdoms earlier. Edward 1 the hammer of the Scots. The nobility in both countries held land in France, England and Scotland. Eventually Ireland/Wales. Scottish Law guaranteed the Sovereignty. The Pope was influential as a higher power of appeal.

      Edward 1, a legalist, was invited in to help determine the succession. Balliol was appointed to the Scottish throne as legal successor, but became Edward’s puppet. Edward 1 took him in chains and held him in London for a ransom and to force him to to give allegiance. A common occurence to try to keep control. Edward introduced Raggyman’s roll. A (10th) Poll tax in Scotland. A document. A Poll rates record to raise taxes in Scotland and conscription. To fight his wars in Normandy France. He had vast estates and land there.

      William Wallace led the revolt against Edward’s aggression. Bruce eventually came on board In the continuing campaign. . Robert Bruce had lands in England and Scotland, In Northampton, Stirlingshire and Aberdeenshire. Aberdeen still has a sovereign fund from the legacy of the lands given over from Robert Bruce’s legacy. It still gives an income for the benefit of the City. Prominent statues of William Wallace and Robert Bruce are in the City Centre.

      Look it up.

      300 years later nothing much has changed. An unelected (in Scotland) Westminster London elite still illegally tries to keep control of Scotland and assets. Deny democracy. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act which politicans have to sign. Iraq, Lockerbie and Dunblane kept secret for 100 years. Scotland is on the fight back. To this illegal Westminster unionist action.

    190. Jack Murphy says:

      OT Re the state of the Tory Party.

      It was only yesterday the Mail on Sunday was reporting that a Tory MP said Theresa May should ‘bring her own noose’ to the next meeting of Tory MPs at Westminster on Wednesday.

      Shameful language. Shameful.

      Ruth Davidson MSP?
      Here’s what she was saying a month ago:
      “Ruth Davidson says Tory rebels must back ‘remarkable’ Theresa May”.

      Ditch them ASAP. 🙁

    191. orri says:

      @Brian Powell

      No email as of yet. Perhaps it’s someone fishing to see it they’ve got the right email address? Unfortunately you may have just confirmed that. Generally best to reply to unexpected contacts using published addresses rather than the ones they give you. Also query in private.

    192. Dorothy Devine says:

      Re the haters who cannot explain their hatred , that has to be media led ordure and challenged brain capacity.

    193. Dr Jim says:

      And Britains number one Sir Andy Murray takes to the court with a nations hopes resting on his shoulders
      Scot Andy Murray crashes out!

      See you’re only British if you’re winning or if you agree with them
      If you don’t agree with them you’re a figure of fun. an enemy of the state, or even Britains most dangerous woman, remember that one, or if you’re Alex Salmond they make an effigy of you and burn it, funnily enough just like our baby boxes

      JK Rowling has taken to twitter again to tell us how the tories have ruined England but neglects to mention she was instrumental in preventing Scotland (The country she lives in) from avoiding that ruination by contributing money to a campaign that forced Scotland into not having any choice in the matter (and still won’t apologise for doing it)

      Nick Clegg in his *new book* compares the SNP to the AFD a racist Nazi party but doesn’t manage to produce any actual comparison at all, he just says it

      Scotlands SNP Guv using the little power it has over matters of foreign affairs takes a stand against Saudi Arabia, the powers that be in England don’t even mention it, but here in Scotland the FM is accused of virtue signalling even by Patrick Harvie of the Greens who said *much warm words from the SNP but they must go further and stop funding the bombing of Yemen by giving money to arms manufacturers) Patrick Harvie knows full well that’s a lie and the money Scotguv spends is for scientific R&D not weapons

      The above examples are a tiny snippet of the hatred of the SNP by all political parties and each example is born out of jealousy for a party doing the right things so they must be brought down to bring back the balance to where every lying politician and party they belong to gets a fair chance to keep crapping all over the people of the British Isles but leaving them with no options to divorce themselves

      The SNP are the divorce lawyers abusers hate yet thanks ten years after they’ve done their job when the abuse is a memory and they realise they too are protected from future abusers

    194. orri says:

      Of course I could be lying about not getting an email.

    195. jfngw says:

      @Brian Powell

      Bin the email. It’s almost certainly someone trying to scam you and extract financial info from you. It’s never a good idea to click on links sent in emails.

      If you have a decent email client hovering over the link will display the web address it is linking to, probably it will be a redirect or someone’s server that has been hacked and fake pages stored on it.

    196. Ottomanboi says:

      A comedian born in Glasgow who spends most of his time in either New York or the south of England and hob nobs with the English royal family appears to ‘soften’ on independence……frankly I just don’t give a damn Mr Connolly. Things have well moved on since your day.

    197. gus1940 says:

      If there was ever any doubt as to which country is the greatest threat to world peace surely Trump’s latest outrage in withdrawing from the Intermediate Nuclear Arms Treaty is confirmation of the fact which has been obvious for decades.

      The instantaneous support for his action from the UK’s Defence Lapdog Williamson fills me with disgust.

    198. Lenny Hartley says:

      22 October, 2018 at 11:54 am

      Socrates not just elderley tories who hate the FM, my neighbour late thirtish labour told me that she would gladly go to Cornton Vale if she got a hold of her, other 40/50 ish Labourites down here hate her with a vengence as well.
      Och, Lenny, wasn’t there a stooshie in Stirling a few years back when some cooncillors wanted to tear down the saltire and hoist the Butcher’s apron, that symbol of Scotland’s armed occupation by England as a colony, over council buildings?
      Through the wonders of wiki, it did not long to track down Loyalist Unionist Sons Of William hostility towards Scotland the nation and NS our peerless FM.

      Stirling Protestant Boys 15th Anniversary Parade

      Stirling Protestant Boys Flute
      Pride O’ The Grange Flute
      Green Gairs Thistle Flute
      Camlachie Loyal Star Flute
      Dykehead sons Of William Flute
      Andrew Murphy Memorial Flute
      Bridgeton No Surrender Flute
      Abbey Star Flute
      Craigneuk True Defenders Flute
      Lily Of The Valley Flute
      Pride Of The Rock Flute
      Camelon Loyalist Flute
      Broxburn Loyalist Flute
      13 Marching Bands!
      What a mighty Force in solidarity with Norn Irn and the DUPpers.
      Until you go on to their wen site and watch the parade pass by.
      To a sparse number of silent onlookers, this parade of Halloween soldiers’ costumed Fluters was pretty thin gruel.
      The first band (I counted) numbered 24, the next, 16, the next, 26, the next 32, then 25, then a sad 12. I gave up counting.There’s only so much fluting up with which my ears will put.
      Let’s be generous and average it out at say, 25.
      So the mass drums and flutes celebrating The Protestant Boys of Stirling’s 15th Anniversary attracted some 325 Sons of William to march on a perfect sunny June Day.

      Then of course Stirling had the now annual Armed Forces Day foisted upon it on the 30th of June.
      Perfect sunny day, with Royal Marine Bands marching in a park.
      Another reminder that Scotland is a militarily occupied subjugated colony.
      I am surprised that you only know 40 0r50 who threaten our FM with violence, Lenny.
      Thankfully this nonsense is fast dying out.

    199. Another Union Dividend says:

      Brian Wilson’s bile called out here

      More influential, due to higher circulation, is Michael Glackin on Scottish business section in Sunday Times who has a weekly diatribe againbst the SNP.

      O/T Passed Klondyke Garden Centre at Mortonhall Edinburgh to find a new large flagpole with Union Jack.

      No more shopping there for me.

      Of course it could be the the Scotland In Union donors
      Meadowhead Ltd who run caravan and camping parks in Edinburgh, East Lothian and Northumberland.

      Two of the directors, Alexander and Henry Trotter, have previously between them donated over £1 Million to Better Together.

      Advert in Sunday Herald helpfully pointed out that their caravan parks are at Mortonhall Edinburgh, Tantallon North Berwick, Belhaven Bay Dunbar and Warren Park Bamburgh in Northumberland.

      I am writing to Klondyke to request a Saltire flag as well and you should also complain.

      If it is Meadowhead Ltd then Klondyke should point out that it is harming their business.

    200. galamcennalath says:

      Media full of Brexiteer outrage because they are suspicious that they aren’t going to get the hard Brexit they want.

      They want 3rd party trade deals, to set tariffs, to change regulations, they want predatory US companies let loose, etc.. They make their vision quite apparent.

      However, what they never ever do is say how they would deal with Ireland, the border, and the Good Friday Agreement. With their hard Brexit, they have a choice. Either, accept a land border and stuff the GFA, or let NI stay closer to the EU and accept a sea border. There is no third way when they want to leave hard.

      Do the media call them out on this? Expose the hypocrisy? Ask difficult questions? Nah, the further right you are, the easier a time you get from the media in UKland.

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s true that a lot of your ultra-yoons are cognitively limited knuckle-draggers, but I would suggest that emotional conditioning/priming through propaganda and the resulting impairment of inductive reasoning, are the major factors contributing to the poor decision making of the majority of no voters.

      Inductive reasoning and implicit memory: evidence from intact and impaired memory systems

      In this study, we modified a classic problem solving task, number series completion, in order to explore the contribution of implicit memory to inductive reasoning. Participants were required to complete number series sharing the same underlying algorithm (e.g., +2), differing in both constituent elements (e.g., 2 4 6 8 versus 5 7 9 11) and correct answers (e.g., 10 versus 13). In Experiment 1, reliable priming effects emerged, whether primes and targets were separated by four or ten fillers. Experiment 2 provided direct evidence that the observed facilitation arises at central stages of problem solving, namely the identification of the algorithm and its subsequent extrapolation.

      The observation of analogous priming effects in a severely amnesic patient strongly supports the hypothesis that the facilitation in number series completiowas largely determined by implicit memory processes. These findings demonstrate that the influence of implicit processes extends to higher level cognitive domain such as induction reasoning.

      Keywords: Number series; Arithmetic reasoning; Amnesia; Priming

      Five Key Theories: Critical Thinking Project

      Deductive vs Inductive Reasoning: Make Smarter Arguments, Better Decisions, and Stronger Conclusions

    202. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim at 1:00pm …”…but here in Scotland the FM is accused of virtue signalling even by Patrick Harvie of the Greens who said *much warm words from the SNP but they must go further and stop funding the bombing of Yemen by giving money to arms manufacturers.” Patrick Harvie knows full well that’s a lie and the money Scotguv spends is for scientific R&D not weapons.”

      I’ve noticed that Patrick Harvie (and Ross Greer) has been getting the boot into Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP at every turn recently. What’s going on with this guy? Jealous? Big ego? We’re nearly over the line now and he’s doing his utmost to discredit the SNP Government, including lying. One thing for sure, I won’t be voting for the Greens any time soon. As one would say, he’s sh*t in his own nest.

    203. manandboy says:

      But, let’s face it, they wouldn’t be English if they didn’t at least try a bit of treachery.

      Predicting the future of Brexit Britain has become a UK-wide obsession, at least it is among those who take an interest in politics and current affairs.
      In Europe, the interest is far less, as indeed it would be here in the UK if it was Lithuania or Hungary who had voted to leave, even allowing for the fact that they are smaller than the UK, and economically and politically less important, for now.

      But even among those most reliably informed, predicting our immediate future is virtually impossible, hence the reason why the Scottish Government, in particular, must wait for legal clarity. This is made all the more difficult by the Westminster Government’s inability to conduct its negotiations in a straightforward manner. The Tory Government is on the cusp of even reneging on the Backstop Agreement on the border between NI and the Republic of Ireland. They continue to keep everyone hanging on.

      What this leads to however is a growing suspicion that the British Government is reverting to type and to its centuries-old habit of Colonial treachery. As Theresa May continues to hide her true intentions amid further delays and extensions, any good intentions the Tories might have had over Brexit, seem to have less and less chance of success as the worst instincts of the Establishment gradually take over.

      In conclusion, having inflicted on themselves a huge loss by voting to leave the EU, including making themselves so vulnerable vis-a-vis Ireland, a country they have despised horribly for so long, The English Establishment, to save face, is now determined to make Brexit look like a great victory. The idea of the Europeans and the Irish coming out on top over Brexit is more than English superiority and entitlement can bear.

      Prepare for more dirty tricks – much more.

    204. Fred says:

      @ Jack Collatin, best way to count the number of bandsmen is to total up the eyebrows, wan each!

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit is really, really bad for Scotland, mk. It will result in the obliteration of Scotland’s popular sovereignty. England’s/Britain’s constitution is not up to the task of protecting the human rights of British subjects. Brexit is the first step on a very slippery slope, IMHO.


      The rise of judicial power throughout the common law world is a departure from a shared constitutional tradition. In this article we consider how and why the UK is departing from that tradition, and outline why and how this departure ought to be resisted. Our argument is that the rise of judicial power in the UK is a function in part of the exercise of political responsibility (notably, dubious political choices to confer new powers and responsibilities on domestic courts and to accept the jurisdiction of foreign courts) and in part of how many judges, lawyers and scholars are coming to understand the idea of judicial power itself. These changes to constitutional law and practice compromise the rule of law, privilege irresponsible law-making, and undercut democratic self-government. They ought to be wound back.

      We suggest that this requires both the revitalisation of political responsibility by elected representatives and an accompanying cultural change within the legal class. We outline how the task of restoring sound constitutional principle in the UK ought to proceed, both in general and, in conversation with Professor Paul Craig, in relation to some of our own work to this end with Policy Exchange’s Judicial Power Project. We begin, however, by restating the common law’s constitutional tradition and the place of courts within it. The broad contours of the tradition traced below are (or at least ought to be) very familiar. Yet, appreciation of and commitment to the traditional constitutional learning amongst the political and legal classes are — it seems to us — waning, which is a main part of the problem. For only if the tradition is kept in clear sight can the real risks associated with the rise of judicial power be fully grasped.

      The executive’s Brexit: the UK Constitution after Miller

      The Cultural Political Economy of Brexit in the Age of Austerity.
      A Corpus-Assisted Critical Realist Multimedia Discourse

      Although the form of linguistic articulations in both mass and social media is central to understanding the construction of the nexus of austerity and Brexit, something else must be brought into the picture to understand their force. From the perspective of Cultural Political Economy this something else has to be located in material social structures and is essential to provide methods that can capture the interplay of the form of and the force behind multimedia discourses. The paper at hand presents a corpus-assisted critical realist multimedia discourse analysis that is able to do so….

    206. Fred a 2.22 pm.

    207. Capella says:

      @ Brian Powell – no email form Wings sent to me and I do donate. Might be a fishing expedition.

    208. Referendum1707 says:

      Another Union Dividend 1.31

      That Meadowhead outfit appeared on a released secret list of siu donors a while back. I emailed them saying that now that it had come to light that they were an anti-Scottish company I wouldn’t be considering using their services. (Hadn’t said anything about siu donations at that point)

      Got an email back saying no no we absolutely love Scotland bla bla. I replied back saying then why did you donate funds to a deeply anti-Scottish organisation like siu, stating the amount that they’d donated. (just so they’d know I knew what I was talking about)

      Crickets. Silence. No reply.


    209. Cubby says:

      CameronB Brodie@11.37am

      My sincere apologises if my poor attempt at humour has upset you.

      Brain damage is obviously a very serious matter. Is it ok to still call history woman a nutter or is that ableism as well? If it is not appropriate to use the term nutter then what would you recommend that is acceptable to convey that she is clearly off her rocker. Assuming of course off her rocker is acceptable.

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