The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Friends like ours

Posted on October 20, 2018 by

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 20 10 18 08:56

      Friends like ours | speymouth

    294 to “Friends like ours”

    1. Cactus says:

      It’s her own party that’s pulling her down.

      A round of applause!

      Have
      A
      Nice
      Day

    2. wull says:

      Brilliant!

    3. sassenach says:

      Obviously can’t see her hands – as she is still digging.

    4. Ghillie says:

      Gruesome

    5. Just about sums up the stinking corrupt murderous little regime at WM.
      Ace, Cairns.

    6. mumsyhugs says:

      Blood on her hands too?

    7. Grouse Beater says:

      It’s a dangerous world when journalists die doing their job, Chris, and some murders take eons to get justice. I’m thinking of last year’s assassination of Daphne Caruana Galizia in Malta. The British press noted it but there’s been no outcry. Malta isn’t an enemy of Britain. Then again, any number of folk have died in police detention in the UK. Happily the UK is a civilised place. And on the theme of journalists…

      Your essential weekend reading:

      Of shills and spookshttps://wp.me/p4fd9j-n1E

    8. wull says:

      Blood, simply blood, on the one hand and blood (red lines) on the other.

      And the UK ‘pure Brit’ hands that are well hidden down the sinking sink-hole – how blood-red are they?

      Is this the reason why the Union Jack that seems to hang around in the background at all these meetings and conferences which Mrs May attends is now hung in such a way that all you really see (at least in the foreground) is the red bit, on a white background? With the blue bits, reduced to virtually nothing, tucked away behind that very prominent in-your-face red stripe …

      Who put the BR (Blood Red?) into BR-EXIT … ?

      It certainly wasn’t us …

      Let the hands soiled with blood SINK right down down that man-made hole of theirs for good… LEAVE the ‘Blood-and-Soil’ nationalism to others …

      REMAIN with our own peculiarly Scottish way of being Scots, with a national commitment which is civic, and civil through and through, both in content and in tone … With just the right amount of that finely controlled swagger to do it in style …

      Fantastic to have cartoonists who can express all this so pointedly and so well …

      Thanks Chris!

      The only peaceful campaign on offer, the only well-reasoned show in town – the one for Scottish independence – will win through in the end. It is rising while the others sink. Here we come …

    9. Ken500 says:

      Could it get any worse. How low can they go up to their eyes in corruption.

      A Tory MP Poulter is working 28 hours a week as a Doctor. £41,000 on top of the £77,000 + expenses. A two faced, greedy,hypocritical, liar.

      They are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. Causing people to die.

      Tgere was absolutely no need for these policies. Cutting NHS/Education and Welfare payments. They should have been putting them up. The taxes raised were going up. The Tory liars were giving tax breaks to the wealthy.

      As for Clegg there are no words. What a lying, greedy, bastard. A simpleton, dishonourable in every way. He caused this mess along with Facebook corruption. They broke the Law incessantly and tax evade.

      Clegg is going for £Millions having ruined the world economy and cause hardship for millions of people. What an utter contemptible cowardly liar. Beneath contempt. Covering up Fsfebook corruption.

    10. Fergus Green says:

      Offer her a hand and she would bite it.

    11. Robert Louis says:

      The slippery blood-stained hands of those she supports and those who support her.

      Every time the Tories get into power, they become even more depraved, twisted and basically evil than the last Tory administration. Many thought Thatcher was evil, and she was, but at least she competent. The current Tories are not just evil, stripping support and money away from seriously ill people and the disabled, and giving tax cuts to the rich, but they are grossly incompetent.

      Given what the Tories have done to the sick, the poor and those who are terminally ill in this country, I have nothing but utter disgust for anybody who votes for them. You need to have zero moral compass to vote for politicians who would undertake to do such truly twisted sick, evil things to the most vulnerable in society.

      Look at Davidson in Scotland, professes to stand up for gay rights, yet jumps oh so happily into bed with the biggest bunch of twisted homophobic, racist, sexist bigots in the entire UK, the DUP. Zero integrity, zero morality, nothing but a vaulting ambition, which (as Shakespeare put it) over leaps itself. For Davidson and her twisted ilk, it is nothing but ‘me, me, me’.

      I remember Thatcher, she was an utter evil despicable witch who cared for nothing and nobody but self greed, but these current Tories are at least a hundred times worse.

    12. Hamish100 says:

      I don’t have an issue of someone h
      Keeping their professional skills up such as a GP, Consultant engineer etc as long as it is not excessive. It’s the greed of those appearing on crap TV shows such as Big brother, get me out of here, the inevitable self centred biographys and the main one , directors or advisors on the many companies seeking a MP.s / MSP patronage , nudge nudge. Of course many Tories in particular sit on Arms companies with blood on their hands. They don’t care.

    13. Pete says:

      Ken500
      I may be wrong, but I thought Phillips Whitford MP did some shifts as a surgeon.
      Just saying.

    14. Az says:

      Pete @ 8:06am

      There’s a profound difference between doing 38 hours a week and doing emergency surgery in warzones or in the Scottish NHS during parliamentary recess.

    15. Az says:

      Sorry about typo, that was meant to say “28 hours a week”

    16. Hamish100 says:

      Well done to BBC Gordon Brewer asking Gisela Stewart (ex labour) and some Leave means leave spokesperson.

      All the discussion in the interview over leaving even Northern Ireland backstop mentioned but he couldnt find the time to mention that country only 12 miles from Northern Ireland called Scotland.

      Pathetic interview giving free reign to a German leaver and an English leaver telling us that we must leave.

      Brewer does Scotland not exist in your brain?

    17. Essexexile says:

      Tory snouts in the trough away from Westminster is merely white noise, hardly news worthy.
      But the nano second Salmond spends one penny of that crowdfunded £100k on anything the media deems to be unrelated to his defence, it’ll be splashed across every front page.
      I still maintain that the crowdfunding wasn’t a smart move from an increasingly loose cannon addicted to confrontation. He’s handed the Unionists a big stick to beat him with.
      We must be smarter in everything we do.

    18. Croompenstein says:

      Gruesome Chris, she must be standing on the bodies of Yemeni children to peer oot the hole she’s in.

    19. Dave Albiston says:

      Pete@8:06

      Philippa Whitford is a surgeon who performs surgery during the parliamentary recesses. She has to prove to the medical council that her skills are up to date to maintain her licence to practise.

    20. McDuff says:

      Best yet Chris.

    21. Ken500 says:

      He is not keeping up professional skills. 28 hours a week, it is another fecking job. £41,000. That cretin is in a Party sanctioning and staving people. That total fecking hypocrite. A Doctor whose training is no doubt publically funded is in a Party sanctioning and starving people to death. Not only breaking the hypocrite oath but the professional code of conduct. He should be reported to public standard authority and the professional boards. For breaking the Code for self interest.

      There was absolutely no case or need for cutting NHS/Education and welfare payments. They were elected to protect. They should have increased it not cut. Useless, lying, greedy halfwits.
      Fecking wreckers. Lying psycho bzstards. . The Dr has psychological problems. He should self diagnosis for causing all the fecking problems. Or diagnose the dirty dancing manic ignoramouses causing all of this wrecking ball. The dirty bag of total psycho bastsrds. The uncouth rats in a sack. They should all be sacked next general elections.

      Clegg caused all of this mess. Brexit, austerity. That lying two faced liar, liar, liar. Now swanning off for £Millions to support the other total utter , tax evading, data criminal Facebook who gave cause all the misery in the world. Two total utter criminal liars. Cowards who cause misery to others. Hope they go bust and end up in prison where they should be.

      Notice all the former Press reports about Johnston Press and Alex Salmond. The largest shareholder, the Norwegian could not make a bid to takeover and change the board. There was a clause in the debt contract/agreement. If anybody took over the company? would have to pay off the colossal debt structure.

      Alex Salmond was not involved because in these circumstances they could not be a takeover or change of board control. The ‘Press’ lied again. Alex Salmond could not be involved in something at the time which was not going to happen. The ‘Press’ used it to try to criticise Alex Salmond. They lied again

      Johnston Press CEO Ashley Highfield left in May with a six figure payoff/pension. After running the company into the ground. There are £200Million of debt and it is worth £3Million. It looks like public money will be used to pick up the pieces and cover some of the losses. Highfield previously worked for the BBC and Microsoft. Tax evaders.robbing the public purse.

      The Herald will be next. Along with all the other ‘Press’ losing readers and listeners hand over fist, Habitual, low life liars. They get can’t help themselves. Destroying their own industry.

    22. Clootie says:

      Chris you have a truly remarkable skill. One that goe far beyond the artwork. You bring a complex story to life with such ease.

    23. Clydebuilt says:

      Dave Albiston @8.49.

      well said. . . .

    24. Ken500 says:

      Just beyond raging

      Davidson Mundell. All their efforts, statements are towards them protecting the seats. Re – election,. That is all they care about. They do not worried a bit about the collateral damage they are causing others. Two complete incompetent, useless imbeciles. They do not care who they damage. It is all about them retaining their privileges.

    25. Ken500 says:

      Essexexile

      Feck off and shut the feck up. Dumb cant. Some folk can and some folk can’t. Loser.

    26. Ian McCubbin says:

      Tragically true that its the far right in her party pulling her.
      She has abandoned all form of decency and appeal to ordinary people.
      Let the fascists have her.

    27. Pete says:

      Ken 500
      I think you have a ‘problem’.
      Maybe time to make an appointment with Dr Poulter MP.
      I’m told he is an excellent psychiatrist training to be a consultant.

    28. Valerie says:

      @ Ken500

      That comment at Essexexile is right out of order. I normally scroll past your gibberish, but wind your neck in.

    29. auld highlander says:

      Ooft! Straight to the point.

    30. Essexexile says:

      OK, well it’s fairly obvious from my last two contributions on here that the self appointed ‘big guns’ on the Wings comment boards are utterly intolerant of any hint of dissent.
      My two posts have been polite, constructive (mild) criticism of the SNP leadership towards identifying our slight flaws before the rabid Unionist media make the most of them.
      …and last week I was accused of trolling while I get to start this weekend by being called a c*nt and a loser.
      Nice.
      Thanks for that.
      As I said before, My shift from no to yes is a fairly recent move and as much as you might not like it, you need people like me if Scotland is ever going to be independent.
      I’m no snowflake, but you may well find that such a hard line attitude, if presented in numbers, turns off floating voters en masse.
      If you’d rather I didn’t post here at all, please do say (in your inimitable style), and I’ll leave you to your ever decreasing circles.

    31. BJ says:

      OT a wee bit.

      I’ve just listened to the New York Observer columnist Andrew Walker on Skynews making a perfect argument for Scottish Independence. Only problem being a Unionist is he doesn’t realise it 🙂

      Very arrogant man.

    32. Hamish100 says:

      Sadly out for my paper a near neighbour saw me buying a National and said without prompting that ” we’re all Brits since 2014″.

      I won’t give you my full response but its amazing how some Scots gave up any rights to being Scottish. My friend was less than impressed when I said I had no idea he supported Rees-Mogg, Davis, Johnson and Farage being a red hot socialist. Looks like I haven’t persuaded him to Independednce but heck it felt good.

      Surely Corbyn is hiding in the hole?

    33. CameronB Brodie says:

      According to Vince Cable and others, the Prime Minister does appear to be a bit of a Nazi. One thing is for sure though, English Tories and English nationalism can not deliver social and economic security for Scotland.

      What Is Fascism?

      ….Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University in New York who is widely considered the father of fascism studies, defined fascism as “a form of political practice distinctive to the 20th century that arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques for an anti-liberal, anti-socialist, violently exclusionary, expansionist nationalist agenda.”

      https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html

    34. manandboy says:

      A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, for the simple reason that the left side and the right side need to work together to maintain balance. Lose your balance and you WILL fall. The UK has lost it. Prepare for a hard fall – it will be painful.

      Hail Caesar!

    35. @everybody,

      `Concern Trolling` meaning,

      Urban Dictionary defines a concern troll as “someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with ‘concerns.’

      ” In other words, it’s someone who pretends to support you but couches their disagreements in the form of “concerns,” which allows them to justify criticism as the result of worrying about you.

      “I’m on your side,” they say, “but you shouldn’t do X, Y, and Z. It looks bad to some people — not that I agree, but I thought you should know.”

      anyhoo,

      one of your best Chris,i like my cairntoons a bit darker.

    36. manandboy says:

      Flanked by her two best friends. Birds of a feather flock together springs to mind.

      The truth of course is that we still don’t know what Theresa May is trying to achieve. We know she is clinging to power through a strategy of endless delay and postponement, but to what purpose? Is she buying time so that her friends in the Establishment can silently strip the UK, and Scotland in particular, of its wealth, before the inevitable collapse?

      One thing is for sure. By aligning herself and her Tory government with the DUP/UDA and the Saudi government, we are left in no doubt about the kind of people the Tory hierarchy are.

    37. Les Wilson says:

      No wonder Chris, that May’s hands are hidden,if she had tried to shake their hands, the blood on her hands would have made them look like amatuers.

    38. haudonthenoo says:

      Mmm it appears Ken500 is the problem, rather than Essexexile.His comment was perfectly reasonable I thought.

    39. schrodingers cat says:

      treeza is asking the dup and saudi for help, mainly cos none will come from the tory party…………..

      Theresa May has just “days left as PM” after ‘committing UK to extra year in the EU’, Tory MPs warn
      By Tom D. Rogers – 18th October 2018

      @christopherhope
      This morning feels like a moment in Theresa May’s leadership. Effectively staying another year in the EU is completely unacceptable to the Brexiteer MPs I have spoken to. She appears to have run out of road in the Brexit talks and has days left as PM, they say.

      Addressing EU leaders last night, Theresa May is reported to have discussed the plot to keep the UK inside the EU for an extra year.

      And the prominent Tory Brexiteer, John Redwood, said that Theresa May’s reported compromise was “quite unacceptable“, and added that: “I don’t think people will vote for it.“

      But, after reports emerged detailing the reported compromise, Tory Brexiteers seem willing to push forward to trigger a no confidence vote in the Prime Minister.

      However, 48 letters will be needed to trigger a vote against the Prime Minister.

      It really is now a matter of when, not if.

    40. Dan Huil says:

      Good stuff, Chris. British nationalism is truly miserable.

    41. Breeks says:

      Essexexile, if you haven’t had Ken gratuitously slag you off, you’re just not trying hard enough. Lol.

      I disagree with you about Alex Salmond. Putting 2 and 2 together and perhaps not getting 4, but the anti Salmond rhetoric you cite might I suspect be the perspective seen from Essex, but it simply doesn’t resonate with me. It does echo the contrived BritNat narrative which set out to smear Alex Salmond as liar, opportunist, smug misogynist unliked by women.

      Alex Salmond was, and hopefully will be again, one of Scotland’s finest statesman and political strategists. It always impressed me how Salmond could out “general” his enemies, such as when he got the Better Together mob demanding that the 2014 Referendum DIDN’T have a DevoMAX option on the ballot. DevoMAX threatened to haemorrhage support for YES, and Salmond’s wits got the Better Together muppets dancing to his tune and kill it dead.

      Another mark of Salmond’s character is when he was accused of dishonesty about consulting a lawyer, and condemned by the Parliamentary Standards Officer for failing to comply with one of Jackie Baille’s many opportunistic Freedom of Information requests. I forget the woman’s name now, (Rose?) but it was her first week in the job, and had Salmond answered the FOI request, he would have breached a ministerial confidence and broken the ministerial code of conduct. As I recall it, Alex Salmond could have pulled the rug out from under her, but instead he spared her blushes and took the heat himself.

      Alex Salmond has been and remains a grievous loss while effectively sidelined in the pro Independence campaign, and the muck which the BritNats like throwing at Alex should be seen for what it is… a measure of how much they absolutely fear him.

      I say all this from the hopefully objective standpoint of a pro-Indy, but non-SNP perspective. Alex Salmond did make mistakes and wasn’t infallible, but not the mistakes he was condemned for. His big mistake in 2014 was the way the media bias was ignored, but the wider impetus he built for YES was absolutely pivotal to running the BritNats so close and creating their panic and outright dishonesty and cheating in the last few days.

      Nevertheless, I hope Alex Salmond will in due course be fully vindicated over his conduct, and before long rehabilitated as one of Scotland’s most important Constitutional Guardians and steward for Sovereign Independence.

    42. Ken500 says:

      Support for the Alex Salmond, SNP and Independence is increasing. They went after Alex Salmond because he knows where the bodies are buried. He is fit for them. He spent his life supporting people and standing up for Scotland. Worth his weigh in gold. Every improvement and development in the Scottish economy has been up to him and Nicola & Co. Scotland has been transformed.

      Every improvement in the NE and Scotland/EU/world. A world Statesman He knows them all. After total Unionist neglect . The AWPR, the Golf Development. The wind turbines in the Bay, (eyesore right enough). The airport expansion. Direct flight to China, Dubai and USA etc. The Queensferry Bridge. A a world renowned project.The new Glasgow, Hospital, the Hydro for international events, Glasgow the world leader for events, The Trams had to be rescued from the mess. The V&A, the Borders railway. The new north byway. The Land buy outs. All because of Alex Salmond. He gets things done. He is a hero.

      Education, NHS, Welfare benefits have been protected, improved and mitigated. No bedroom tax, increased funding for NHS. MUP. Increased Uni and nursery funding. Bus passes, prescription and social care. Increased apprenticeships. Teachers, policemen, public service budgets and pay bring increased. Low unemployment. £100 million a year mitigation.

      Alex Salmond found the McCrone Report. He knew the rip off of the Oil resources. He worked as an economist st the RBS. He would have been one of the first to know. He can count and read a balance sheet. He represented the NE of Scotland for years. Banff & Buchan because in the NE the Oil workers offshore seen the meters turning. The equivalent of £Billion going south to fund London S/E, illegal wars and any other wasteful rubbish. Kept secret illegally under the Official Secrets Act by Thatcher and other unionist llar politicians.

      Under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

      Save the pish for other mugs. If stop being so ignorant and telling lies. People are sick of it.

    43. Elmac says:

      Re Essexexile at 9.50.

      Well said. I have had similar reactions on here to a few of my infrequent comments, although not so vitriolic as you have endured. I have followed Wings for years. The bulk of the contributors are open to civilised debate but there are a few who view this site as their personal fiefdom and react badly to any views which conflict with theirs. Not exactly the best strategy to boost Wings following and promote the cause of independence.

      Please continue to post. I don’t agree with your 8.43 comment either but respect your right to contribute your view.

    44. Hamish100 says:

      Ot

      The Outlaw King will have limited cinema time before showing on Netflix. Surely we should see if we can get a wider showing in the cinema? Still can’t see where it will be shown online.

      Nevertheless, well done to Netflix as you would never see the btirtish state broadcaster producing this.

    45. Luigi says:

      After months of a disgusting “No surrender!”, “Fight em on the beaches” narrative during May’s negotiations, it is rather strange that the Tory Press have gone so quiet, now that May has all but capitulated to the EU !!!???????

      It’s almost as of they were just trying any narrative just to protect the Tory government. Pure manipulation in a disgusting way. You did it deliberately.

      Well, sorry Tory press, you don’t get off so lightly. You don’t wind up the population, generate so much division and xenophobia, wind them up, let them go, and then run away so easily. English nationalism is about to go critical. When it explodes, there won’t be much left of your precious “union”. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s all your fault.

    46. mike cassidy says:

      OT

      Last night the previous thread had much debate about protecting tax havens being the core reason for the brexit move.

      Here’s a link from last month that shows the situation within the EU is much more complicated than a simple ‘we’re coming for your money’.

      https://www.taxjustice.net/2018/09/23/eus-tax-haven-blacklist-blocks-just-1-of-financial-secrecy-services-threatening-eu-economies/

      (wouldn’t archive)

    47. Giving Goose says:

      Hamish100

      Anyone who says they are a “Brit” or selects the identity of “British/Brutish” is admitting to an English identity.
      “British” = English.
      All “British” institutions are English.
      Call out your neighbour and all Brits for what they are – English!

    48. Giving Goose says:

      Hamish100

      I would add that there is nothing wrong in an English identity but it is what it is and it’s definitely not Scottish.
      British = English….end of!

    49. Ken500 says:

      IndyRef2 had been up to some old tricks. Slagging off the SNP on other site. Getting comments in the Herald (or Nstional?) printed,totally slagging off the SNP. When they know for sure. They have been told before. The administration of any political party is required by Law.- Parliamentary Law – To have a set piece format according to legal requirement. A committee meeting. With a set agenda and format. With minutes taken, recorded and agreed. Just like any business. Motions layout and discussed. It might be slightly, boring for prima Donna or exhibitionist, who don’t know what side there bread is buttered on. There is plenty of scoop tombe involved and organise for those of a pstirbt disposition and conciliation. Depending on commitment. The ones who do the hard graft, often in the background. To get together and exchange opinions and discussion.

      Unlike some little two faced toe rag attention seekers. Exhibitionists.

    50. Valerie says:

      @ Essexexile

      I didn’t agree with your comment, but the point was made politely, and certainly didn’t deserve ken500’s unwarranted vitriol.

      There is only one person who decides if you cannot post on here, and it ain’t Ken500, so don’t be asking him!

      There is robust debate on here, but that does not mean playing the man, as Ken500 did.

      Meantime, only you can decide if you want to post.

    51. Bob Mack says:

      @Essex exile,

      The point is that if Alex Salmond collected funds from people who believe his argument is justified. The alternative is to ban such collections which is pretty undemocratic don’t you think?

      The complainer (s), are after all backed by the resources of the Scottish Government and Unions as well as media outlets.

      A sense of balance is no bad thing.

    52. Essexexile says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      Of course the assumed boundary between the two sides is defined by the binary choice of yes / no. Certainly that’s the important one but, while we’re on the subject, there are clearly other boundaries within the debate.
      While I was a Unionist, I disagreed on pretty much everything with the hard line sash wearing types but the referendum put me on their side.
      As I have been drawn to yes, principally by the measured, progressive approach of the current FM, I have actually shifted very little in my politics. If there was a ref tomorrow (and if I had a vote) I would now be on the same side as eg Ken 500 despite, it seems, there being a considerable gulf in politics between us.
      Interestingly, as a soft yes, do I sympathize more with the extreme nationalists or extreme Unionists? Certainly, as a Unionist I was never called a c*nt by somebody hoping to retain my support.
      This may all be of little interest to many but it’s incredibly important if we (Yes, to be clear!) are to win a second indy ref.
      There’s a reason the entire UK political establishment descends on Nuneaton before a GE.

    53. Ken500 says:

      Westminster unionists vetoed some of the tax haven reforms the EU wanted to make. Diluted them,
      the ones being introduced, They are just the start.

    54. Ken500 says:

      Save yer guff for others. Get lost loser.

    55. Calum McKay says:

      uk economic strategy:

      Ditch your close neighbours who are very stable plus geographically, politically, economically and culturally close to uk.

      Replace them with:

      States who are in unstable regions plus geographically, politically, economically and culturally distant to uk and have highly questionable human rights.

      One side effect of bresxit is that it has smoked the tories out on their hardline unionist credentials, they are blood and soil british nationalists for all the people to see.

    56. Ken500 says:

      People are losing patience with the sitters on the fences. Off you go. Go and navel gaze that suits you, Sir. Former unionist? Aye right. Don’t try and insult folks intelligence – chancer.

    57. Ken500 says:

      V enters the fray and gets it wrong as usual. Pity piece. Gies it peace, Not the moralising.

    58. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The hypocrisy is absolutely boundless.

      We invaded Iraq to get rid of the “wicked Saddam Hussein” at the cost of about 600,000 innocent civilian deaths despite the fact that Iraq ,which was the most advanced country in the Middle East (in which Hussein had abolished religious extremism)was none of our business

      We blew Libya back to the middle ages to get “that wicked Gaddafi – you know the one that was giving the actual Libyans its oil money in free health care, free education, huge marriage grants etc but was taking his oil out of petro dollars

      And we are bombing Syria against the “butcher Assad” – you know the one that has over 80% of the popular vote in free and fair elections in his own country while the US/UK fund Isis terrorists to try to remove him.

      So what are we waiting for?

      When do we invade Saudi Arabia, remove its royal family and execute them and free its people from its barbaric tyranny which beheads women for adultery and chops off poor people’s arms for theft -as their rulers lounge about in London Casinos and Playboy clubs?

      Oops,sorry. They are our friends. We get their oil and they get our weapons.

    59. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken 500,

      Cool yer jets mate. The points raised are exactly what we have to answer if we wish to persuade people to join. You might well have voted indy and SNP all your life but others like me came from a different background.

      If you can’t say anything to counterpoint an argument then say nothing.

      That also goes for those who just play agent provocateur on this site.

    60. Ken500 says:

      That was the one who says ‘Glad people are posting again’. Now disputing it. Always on the fence. Raving

    61. Dorothy Devine says:

      the horror! The horror!

      OT To another horror , the RSPCA has another appeal on telly and shows just what a nation of animal lovers we really are. At the very beginning it has a printed message of the RSPCA works in England and Wales.

      Please , no matter how moved /disgusted you are by the ad REMEMBER the SSPCA is ours and rescues animals from cruelty and neglect in Scotland.

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –

      Hear hear.

    63. Valerie says:

      Ken500

      WoS regulars are always polite to you, no matter how disjointed or demented your postings.

      Away back to bed, ya rocket.

    64. schrodingers cat says:

      Valerie says:
      Away back to bed, ya rocket.
      —————

      ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

    65. Dr Jim says:

      Great cartoon of the truth of UK politics in that you know that Mrs May will take both hands and the only delay would be how to make it appear justifiable

      In the past pre Internet before the world became judge jury and executioner there would be no hesitation, now the only hesitation is how to make the lie palatable for your own supporters to rally behind

      The Internet gives false hope to folk who think their opinion matters to the powers that be, it doesn’t, those powers that have always been will always be and there’s nothing any of us can do to make a difference to it because we live in a Union that says *Democracy is what we say it is* and that folks is the reason for Independence for Scotland

      The England Union system is and never has been democratic it was never designed to be it’s just Monarchy by a different name, the facade maintained to give the masses hope that they count for something, they don’t, again the reason for Scottish Independence

      Small countries with small populations throughout the world
      can do better than the large ones at operating democracy, big countries are just useless at it look at America Russia and England thinks and behaves in the same way, it has delusions of grandeur way above its actual size hence the projection of itself as *Great* Britain, the *British* Isles, the *United* Kingdom, how many *BIG* sounding names do you invent for yourself for goodness sake

      The Monarchy, look at the Queen mother remember her well her title was *Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother* I mean how many times can you get the word Queen in the title to big yourself up

      Trouble with England is it still thinks it’s in a kind of X Factor contest of important world countries and it still wants to win the Golden Trophy as the importantist of all the other contestants, again the reason for Scottish Independence because you don’t compete with other countries you co operate with them and compete with yourself to improve your situation

      Leave England to its dream of domination and power and get on with building friendships with other nations not tearing them down

      Diplomacy is done over a cup of coffee and a blether not appearing to be defiant posturing and self aggrandising to show how powerful you’re pretending to be

      Gosh I just rambled on there, sorry!

    66. Ken500 says:

      Persuade folk. They are total fools voting against their own interest but expecting others to pussy foot around them while they try destroy the economy and people lives. Many have had enough of that. Any total ignoramous who believes that bring in a unionist party or voting unionist is going to get them Independence is a fool. They are voting again their own interest. Totally. Cutting off their nose to spite their face,

      The Unionist Parties are totally against Independence and rights for Scotland. They have been since 1928 and before. They are funded from Westminster London HQ to stop powers, rights and Independence for Scotland. They have behaved despicably for years. Cheat lying illegal and secret behaviour. Totally anti democratic.

      If people are so ignorant and stupid. It might be better to point that out. Instead of pussy footing around them. People have lost patience. Enough is enough. The unionists have trash the UK economy. It is only the SNP that stands up for Scotland clearly, including Alex Salmond legacy. He got IndyRef1 in place and nearly succeeded. The InfyRef1 was won by a load of illegal funding and lies. Criminal activity. There will be another one soon which can be won.

      How anyone thinks being in an unionists Party or voting unionist is going to get them Independence. They are sorely mistaken. All these Parties are actively working against Scotland best interest and democratic rights. They are all against democracy or Independence. In every way shape or form. Criticising Alex Salmond after all he has done for Scotland is just playing into the oposition hands. He has spent his life in service and campaigning for Scotland. That should be respected.

    67. Ken500 says:

      Valerie just piss off

      Kettle black

    68. Ken500 says:

      The cat that misses the cream a total fruit case

    69. Ken500 says:

      Aye voting Green did a lot for Independence. It lost the SNP majority. Clueless. While they vote against the SNP at every opportunity. They are trying to lose SNP support by constant irrational criticism. That does not do much for Independence cause. Or get rid of Willy Rennie. The political system sabotaged. Voters sick of the sight of unionists politicians can’t get rid of them. Ganging up together with two jobs Tories dragged off the street to deny Scotland democracy.

    70. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken500,

      Please stop it Ken. You are quick yourself to stop Unionist posters operating through abuse. Now you are falling into the same trap. You usually post lots of facts and data which is good. What’s happened this morning to get you so riled up?

    71. John Moss says:

      A great cartoon. Ye cannae say better than that.

    72. Surely everyone has a right to post their opinions on here ??? I mean that’s what makes the sight different from most others and as for some of the rude replies they are surely unessesry apart from anything else they are blooming bad manners live and let live

    73. Robert Louis says:

      Scott Finlayson at 1019am,

      Excellent comment. I totally agree. You would think by now, that some folks on here might be a bit wiser regarding such things.

    74. Chick McGregor says:

      Ah my children! you learned the lesson of hypocrisy and intolerance well.

    75. Dr Jim says:

      Lovely pictures of the FM and Chris Pine at the premiere of the Bruce movie, Oh and Yoonworld really really angry again about, well everything Scottish and the FM

    76. Petra says:

      Great cartoon Chris. Blood on her (their) hands right enough.

      Jeremy Hunt reckons that there’s ”no easy solutions in Yemen” …. ”there is no military solution possible”, so if that is the case one has to ask (not) why Big T and her party continue to sell arms to the Saudis. What a bunch of lying, warmongering hypocrites.

      https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1052548987000156160

      …………………………

      ‘Date set in UK’s challenge to Scottish court’s Brexit ruling.’

      ‘Outside court, Wightman said: “The UK Government has not wanted this matter referred to the Court of Justice. They’re very, very keen not to have this argument aired. Failure to conclude a deal this week by the UK Government is good news as far as we are concerned, because we want the decision on the unilateral revocability of Article 50 made well before there is a meaningful vote in the House of Commons. I think the UK Government is bricking itself. It’s got plenty to get exercised about.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16995969.date-set-in-uks-challenge-to-scottish-courts-brexit-ruling/

      ……………………….

      ‘Secretive group Mainstream Network spends £250,000 on Facebook Brexit ad campaign.’

      ..”The group Mainstream Network have no address, are not registered with any regulatory body and have no named reporters, managers or campaigners. Yet their pro-Brexit, anti-Chequers messages are estimated to have targeted between 10m and 11m people on Facebook…”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16995983.secretive-group-mainstream-network-spends-250000-on-facebook-brexit-ad-campaign/?ref=mr&lp=9

      …………………………….

      ‘People are raging with this Scottish Labour tweet.’

      ”Winter Gardens and possible closure of the People’s Palace.”..

      ”Many pointed out that the buildings were under the control of Labour-run councils for 27 years, until 2015.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16995883.people-are-raging-with-about-this-scottish-labour-tweet/?ref=mr&lp=6

    77. schrodingers cat says:

      in line with this blogs rules, i usually just scroll past trolls, abusive posters etc, which is why i was replying to val and not you ken. but i take exception here as you are disrupting the thread. this is also frowned upon by the owner of this blog.

      some of your comments are worthwhile, as said by bob mack, but i believe you are sailing close to the wind and for your own good, it would be better to step away from your keyboard.

      last comment on this matter

    78. defo says:

      CC to Hogarth… ‘Hold my pint’

    79. louis.b.argyll says:

      Was there a butcher’s hook in the Orangeman’s hand originally?

      Looks like it, or maybe it’s just me.

    80. orri says:

      I’m not sure the Greens did stop the SNP getting a majority. I suppose I could add all their votes to the SNPs on the list and see if they’d have gained any extra seats.

      Admittedly standing at the constituency level might have lost the SNP a seat but only if you follow the arrogance of Labour in forgetting voters only lend you their votes and that you don’t own them.

      The major culprits in that whole thing though were RISE who you’d almost think were deliberately there to split the YES vote more than two ways. All based on an arrogant overconfidence similar to that which, or do it’s said, contributed to Kinnock losing an election.

      As it stands there’s already a mandate in Holyrood for indyref2 and it can’t be said they the Greens are SNP puppets.

      Also despite Mundell’s claims Westminster has no mandate for it’s own manifesto unless the DUP mentioned indyref2. However even then the whole precious union but mentions the timing of indyref2 not taking place until after Brexit. Not sure if that even includes a transition phase. So by implication any time after March next year. But as I said they’re a minority administration with no mandate other than where their manifestos overlap with another party.

    81. Dr Jim says:

      100,000 people of a 55 million population demonstrating in London for a vote on Brexit is national news with Sky and BBC reporters on the spot live to broadcast it to the nation

      100,000 people of a 5.4 million demonstrating in Edinburgh for a vote on Scotlands Independence ……dismissed, so per head of population which demonstration was the larger by an enormous amount

      Everything about Scotland is dismissed, again the reason for Scottish Independence

    82. Petra says:

      Yeah we’re different in so many ways. Another reason for leaving the Union.

      ‘WATCH: SNP MP told to ask ‘written question’ because of his accent.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16992260.watch-snp-mp-told-to-ask-written-question-because-of-his-accent/?ref=mrb&lp=14

      ……………………………..

      ‘SNP make second visit to Arctic Circle Assembly as part of post-Brexit strategy to save Scotland. Loyalist parties and media CGAF?’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/10/20/snp-make-second-visit-to-arctic-circle-assembly-as-part-of-post-brexit-strategy-to-save-scotland-loyalist-parties-and-media-cgaf/

      …………………………..

      ‘Sally Magnusson left fuming as Reporting Scotland descends into chaos.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16996603.sally-magnusson-left-fuming-as-reporting-scotland-descends-into-chaos/?ref=mr&lp=1

      ……………………….

      ‘BBC Scotland, reporting the news that matters: One mad cow, one bad polis email, one unreliable stat, one black panther, maybe!’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/10/19/bbc-scotland-reporting-the-news-that-matters-one-mad-cow-one-bad-polis-email-one-unreliable-stat-one-black-panther-maybe/

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      Giving Goose and Hamish100
      British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism. The British nationalist hatred of the indy movement, is indicative of their fascistic ideology, (contemporary British nationalism is illiberal in nature – see Brexit). The English aren’t all British nationalists though, some of them reject fascism quite strongly. Some simply aren’t concerned with national identity.

      N.B. Fascism should be viewed as a re-imagining of colonial imperialism.

      Indifference towards national identity: what young adults think about being English and British

      ABSTRACT.

      National identity should be sharply distinguished from nationalism. People speak by reference to a general and assumed membership of a country, and routine markers of behaviour and style may exhibit this sense of membership. This matter-of-fact acceptance of ‘national’ membership does not guarantee enthusiasm for the ‘nation’ and it cannot be taken as a signal of nationalism, banal or otherwise. While theoretical statements and assumptions often suggest that national identity is fundamental to individuals in contemporary societies, empirical investigation of people talking about national identity uncovers some broad strands of indifference and hostility towards national identity in general, and towards British and English identities in particular. This may reflect young adults’ wish not to appear ‘nationalist’ just as many would wish not to appear racist. But the level of apathy and antagonism towards national identity among young adults suggests that we ought to reconsider any assumption that national identity is ‘normally’ a powerful and important marker, embraced with enthusiasm.

      KEYWORDS: banal nationalism, Britishness, Englishness, indifference, individualism, national identity

      http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.619.8375&rep=rep1&type=pdf

      Empire and English nationalism
      Empire and nation: foes or friends?

      It is more than pious tribute to the great scholar whom we commemorate today that makes me begin with Ernest Gellner. For Gellner’s influential thinking on nationalism, and specifically of its modernity, is central to the question I wish to consider, the relation between nation and empire, and between imperial and national identity.

      For Gellner, as for many other commentators, mnation and empire were and are antithetical. The great empires of the past belonged to the species of the ‘agro-literate’ society, whose central fact is that ‘almost everything in it militates against the definition of political units in terms of cultural boundaries’ (Gellner 1983: 11; see also Gellner 1998: 14–24). Power and culture go their separate ways. The political form of empire encloses a vastly differentiated and internally hierarchical society in which the cosmopolitan culture of the rulers differs sharply from the myriad local cultures of the subordinate strata. Modern empires, such as the Soviet empire, continue this pattern of disjuncture between the dominant culture of the elites and the national or ethnic cultures of the constituent parts.

      http://www.bu.edu/sociology/files/2010/04/Kumar-emp.pdf

      A Comparative Analysis of Nationalism

      ….Linda Colley, in her influential book, Britons: Forging the Nation 1707-1837, investigates how British national identity has developed. Her analysis covers the period from 1707, when Act of Union between the Scotts and the English was signed, to 1837, when Victorian era started. The period under review is of significance because the process of the British identity formation has been completed during that period, she contends. Therefore, those two points, namely 1707 and 1837, were deliberately chosen by Colley. Colley’s approach to the issue of national identity is quite interesting and impressive as well. She argues that three distinguished nations, namely, the English, the Scots and the Welsh, developed a British identity, which is, in many respects, different from its constituents.

      Those mentioned “sub-identities” formed the new identity; however, it does not very much reflect their impacts. It should be indicated that Colley does not offer a satisfactory explanation about what happened to the former identities, after the sense of being British was explored. She does not necessarily claim that the new identity abolished the old ones; nor does she clearly acknowledge their existence. What she does not explain include how it is possible to imagine that the individuals, who feel they belong to a particular group, can also hold another national identity. Moreover, she seems to have neglected the primacy and dominance of Englishness within the British-ness. As the English population is much more than even the sum of the rest, -Scots and the Welsh, it does not seem reasonable to suggest that the new identity does not contain the dominant character of the English.

      https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/172/30342.html

    84. gus1940 says:

      Isn’t it odd that this week’s discovery of BSE in Aberdeenshire has been shouted from the rooftops by both Scottish and metropolitan media including the BBC while apparently there have been about 10 instances in E & W over the last few years which, if they were reported in the media, receieved little or no attentiom?

    85. Graeme McCormick says:

      I reckon that’s your best cartoon yet. Chilling and multi layered yet so concise.
      This should go viral!

    86. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      “Breaking: First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, pulls out of Edinburgh conference after learning that former Trump strategist, Steve Bannon, has been invited to speak by BBC.” – The Ferret

    87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Valerie @ 09:42:

      I normally scroll past your gibberish

      Likewise, Val, likewise. =sigh= Just a pity there’s so much of it.

    88. orri says:

      A50 has to be constitutionally sound.

      As the funding and dirty tricks involved in getting a narrow Leave result became apparent then an A50 based on that would have failed that requirement.

      Also considering the lack of mandate it’s certain the HoL would have delayed long enough for second thoughts and the whole thing called off without the Parliament Act being applicable.

      So a GE needed to force that issue and enough MPs elected on a manifesto pledge.

      Also to comply with A50 it had to be voted on by Parliament hence the Gina Miller case removed another avenue to challenge the constitutional compliance of it.

      One remaining avenue for invalidating A50 is the pursuit of the Dark Money scandal that may very well be pivotal in giving May if not a majority enough MPs to run a minority administration. If the Parliament is not elected on a sound constitutional basis then any votes are tainted.

      Never mind that the previous government was even more blatantly illegitimate.

      If anything Brexit is based on successive abuses of the democratic process with those most closely tied to them keanest to get it done before it can be stopped or reversed. It’s like fugitives desperate to keep one step ahead of being caught.

      It’d real make a bad day for them worse if the EU say you can simply withdraw A50

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Pete says: 20 October, 2018 at 8:06 am:

      ” …
      I may be wrong, but I thought Phillips Whitford MP did some shifts as a surgeon.
      Just saying.”

      Nah! Your not just saying – you are distorting the truth in the first place and not comparing like with like in the second place.

      Now why would you want to do that?

      In the first place Phillipa Whitford is not a GP. She is a brilliant specialist surgeon and a consultant. As such she is legally required to do a minimum of hands-on work or she loses her credentials.

      In the second place she filled in in an emergency caused by staff shortages and I’m not at all sure if she even got paid for her work.

      You are comparing her to a person who is doing two jobs of a regular basis. Now why would you want to do that?

      By the way the lady will be earning a great deal less as an MP than she did as an SHNS consultant specialist surgeon.

    90. Petra says:

      ‘Letters: A chance to help save our rare red squirrels.’

      Please make a difference and vote at:

      http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/voteTFL.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16989936.letters-a-chance-to-help-save-our-rare-red-squirrels/

      ………………….

      ‘Yes DIY: Report finds that resistance to independence can be overcome.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16987138.yes-diy-report-finds-that-resistance-to-independence-can-be-overcome/

    91. Kangaroo says:

      Posted this again as there was a Troll on the last thread trying to get this post Lost in the mix.

      For those of you have not read it yet and there are obviously a fair few on Wings, this is a MUST read.

      You don’t have to guess anymore. It’s straightforward.

      In their rush to escape the EU Tax changes they missed the details.

      It’s Brexit OR the Union they cannot have both. They are caught in a legal snare.

      This is why there is such a delay In getting a Withdrawal Agreement organised and why there is a NEW Act of Union going Through the House of Lords. They are going to try and get us to rescind our Sovereignty or at least delegate it to Westminster.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16989865.this-is-why-westminsters-choice-is-between-brexit-and-the-union/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor

      Check out the comments.

      Especially for you Mr Peffers.

    92. Ken500 says:

      Touche Kettle black

    93. MaggieC says:

      Wonderful Chris , Hope folk realise that she’s not getting out that hole as there’s a big rock of Gibraltar hanging right over her head .

    94. orri says:

      The timing of the alleged BSE outbreak, as in single animal, might simply be coincidence. However it is close on the heels of an attempt at destroying calf exports or at least undermining them. Only problem is that I don’t know how long the incubation time is so deliberate infection might need a longer lead time.

      That said deliberately undermining parts of Scotland’s economy for long term gain is definitely something that could be justified as an investment. Something similar to the sudden reduction in revenue take from the North Sea ostensibly to encourage reinvestment but combined with the lowering of price by OPEC flooding the market from their reserves led to an argument against independence. A short term loss to prevent a more permanent one.

    95. Petra says:

      David Pratt: ‘I’m sick of being labelled a ‘regional’ journalist because I work from Scotland.’

      …..”My main concern over the list was not so much who was included or not, than the fact that a few days after the names were published, the journalism industry online portal HoldtheFrontPage, ran a story about the list entitled, “Regional Editors and journalists named among the UK’s most-respected”…

      ..”For me personally, what especially sticks in the craw over being dubbed “regional” is that as a freelance, not only do I write for both Herald titles as well as this newspaper, The National and its sister paper the Sunday National, but for other publications UK-wide and across the world. That the stories, too, that I deal with, as a freelance contributing foreign editor, are almost exclusively international-based reportage, analysis or comment, makes such “regional” labelling all the more irritating.”…

      ..”Pointing out on Twitter my misgivings about being categorised as a regional journalist in the HoldtheFrontPage article the other day, the response of one wag pretty much summed up that of many others when he opined that it was simply my “misfortune to work for a newspaper in the north of England”.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16993206.im-sick-of-being-labelled-a-regional-journalist-because-i-work-from-scotland/

      ………………………….

      @ Kangaroo says at 1:23 pm ….. ”Posted this again as there was a Troll on the last thread trying to get this post Lost in the mix…”

      Kangaroo it’s been posted in full already. You must have missed it plus a number of related comments.

      Anyway it’s probably well worth posting again for anyone who missed it previously.

      …………………………

    96. Ken500 says:

      Just getting sick of the totally continued crap. Just getting raging. Red rag.

      Someone coming in an Independence supporting site and criticising Alex Salmond in their ignorance. They they think will get away with it. They won’t. They have done exactly the same thing before. Word for word. Then peope being expected to pussy foot around them with others joining in. While they try to destroy the economy and are sanctioning and starving people. Totally unnecessarily. In a place of plenty. It is just disgusting. Yet people are defending them. Ridiculous.

      They need to be called out every time. Enough is enough. People have enough of this shambles, havoc and chaotic UK Gov. Their carry on is beyond the pale. They will collapse for sure soon, Labour could have taken them down Sept 2017 EVEL vote but they did not. In order end the suffering. They are useless. They do not want the poison chalice. They haven’t got a clue,

      Dugdale was even telling voters to vote for the Tories. That is illegal. It breaks Parliamentary rules for a representative of one Party to tell people or vote for another. Against Party rules. She did it and stopped Corbyn getting in, How monumentally stupid is that. Beyond stupid. They have to be sued to stop them telling lies but that does not even stop them.

      After what Alex Salmond has done for Scotland all his life. Many of them who criticise are not fit to lick his boots. They way he has been treated by some moronic civil servant. Swanning around like they are some FM and getting paid more. There is one FM. There is no need for another one. On false pretence.

    97. K1 says:

      Ken…rarely if ever…’lets rip’, gie him a break, need to let off steam, may as well be amongst friends.

    98. Valerie says:

      Adam Payne from Business Insider seems pretty plugged in to the Brussels scene. He said he was getting the impression EU were running out of patience, and ball is now firmly in UK court.

      His piece here rounds it up quite well. It’s “take it or leave it” from EU. They will not budge on backstop, which will infuriate DUP.

      Seems EU has learned the hard way, they are dealing with liars and back peddlers, hence their determination on backstop.

      http://archive.is/ZgktJ

    99. Ken500 says:

      The ‘Press’ just regurgitate nonsense. They copy each other without checking out the nonsense. Ditto BBC. No wonder it is fake news. People can google some fact in a few minutes which counters what they are saying. They are ignorant with statistics and figures. Not tell the truth. That is no excuse for making stuff up.

      The MSM are politically biased. Not impartial but often sponsored and promoted by political Parties. Non Dom tax evaders. Thatcher gave the Press over to the right wing, Murdoch should never have been allowed to buy the Times etc or get any control of SKy.

      Murdoch is a master criminal who dictated influence on political matters Brexiteer for the money? illegally. Hacking, surveillance and bribing public officials. This is an offence in the US even if committed anywhere in the world. Murdoch is an American citizen he has to be because of his business interests there. Half the offsprings are part Scottish. He married a Scottish woman, He married a Chinese woman (two kids) for easier access to Chinese markets.Subsidiaries, Now married to an American for business reasons?

    100. Al Dossary says:

      @Orri,

      Tin foil hat time? The source of the BSE is at this time unknown, but you have to remember that there is a (slim) chance that these type of disease can manifest naturally – eg the disease Scrapie in sheep, BSE in cows or CJD in humans.

      What was unique about the major BSE outbreak was that it was wholly due to the macabre practice of feeding cows (purely vegetarian animals) a feed that included the ground up parts of other animals like cows, sheep pigs and horses). A purely man-made problem.

      There was a spill in Camelford in Cornwall of Aluminum Sulfate to the water system that has resulted in excess of 20 cases of degenerative brain disease in the local populace.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford_water_pollution_incident

      The oil price slump – was not directly caused by the Saudi’s. Rather the US shale suppliers had flooded the market with an over supply of oil (not for the first time in history), and they expected that the Saudi’s would cut the supply again to keep the price high. However, the Las tome the Saudi’s cut their output, tge suppliers they cut out went elsewhere and it to the Saudi’s a long time to get them back.

      Anyway, why should the Saudi’s care? They can pump the oil at a few $ per barrel as opposed to the US shale suppliers who needed around $50 a barrel back then just to break even. So the Saudi’s kept pumping at their agreed rate to punish the US shale. Why they eventually rescinded and cut production we will never know, but the Saudi economy was suffering badly due to the loss in revenue.

      One thing is for sure, the biggest winner if the US / Is**el / Saudi alliance get involved in Iran, the only winners will be the oil companies and the arms manufacturers.

    101. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Feck off and shut the feck up. Dumb cant. Some folk can and some folk can’t. Loser.”

      Ken, comments like this are unacceptable. Watch your step.

    102. Valerie says:

      orri @ 1.19

      The UK gov’t is launching an appeal to the Supreme Court now, to try and stop the hearing of the A50 case on 27 Nov, at the ECJ.

      They must be bricking it that that the ECJ will find that the A50 can be withdrawn by UK, without the other 27.

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism articulates an extremely unhealthy re-imagination of colonial imperialism (see Brexit).

      The Nation and Nationalism in Europe

      Typologies of Nationalism
      In the literature we can find several more or less successful attempts to classify nationalism. In the following section we systemise these attempts by introducing six criteria of classification of nationalism.

      We use the following meta-criteria:
      • correspondence between culture and politics
      • definition of the nation
      • ethical assessment of nationalism
      • techniques of generating nationalism
      • main bearers of nationalism

      Ontological and consequential ethical assessments of
      nationalism

      In ethical terms, we can distinguish between ontological and consequential assessments of nationalism. Ontological ethical assessments have their precursor in Hans Kohn’s dichotomy between Western and Eastern varieties of nationalism and the idea of more and less benign forms of nationalism. Speaking more in normative than in analytical terms, Kohn pointed to the spirit of individual liberty and rational cosmopolitanism that informed the Western type of nationalism.14 At the same time, he saw illiberal tendencies as inherent in the Eastern type of nationalism and argued that Eastern nationalism, especially the German variety, ‘turned to self-glorification and lacked sober appreciation of moral and material forces’.15

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258220758_The_Nation_and_Nationalism_in_Europe

      Media representation of nationalism and immigration: a case study of Jamie’s Great Britain
      http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communications/assets/documents/research/msc-dissertations/2013/108-Liang.pdf

      Nationalism as a Social Imaginary: Negotiations of Social Signification and (Dis)Integrating Discourses in Britain, France and Poland
      https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00617618v3/document

    104. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geeo @1257, nobodies posted that today because its yesterdays news! It was posted the other day.

    105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Valerie @ 14:16,

      Interesting article. The EU holds all the cards, and is totally fed up dealing with “strong and stable” May, so I continue to reckon that the UKGov will cave, and will get an open-ended “transition” agreement through the HoC with the help of the opposition. Someone else will have to deal with the ongoing mess for years to come, but here in Scotland we’ll still have been dragged out against our express will, lost all our rights as EU citizens, and be vulnerable to a predatory UKGov in desperate need of resources and handy scapegoats.

      (Not feeling the water temperature getting just a bit uncomfortable now, Scottish frogs…?)

    106. Petra says:

      @ PC at 1:17pm …… “Nicola pulling out” …..

      The BBC must think that Nicola Sturgeon came up the Clyde on a bicycle.

      Fly ‘you know whats”.

      https://theferret.scot/trump-steve-bannon-newsxchange-edinburgh/

    107. One_Scot says:

      I said in the past that I am very happy for genuine No voters or soft Nos to come on here and have open debate, but unionists pretending to support Independence with the sole purpose of causing division, well they’re just scum.

    108. ailsa craig says:

      Straight from the mouth of a DEFRA vet. The beast with a lesser form of BSE came up from England 5 years ago. There has been a few cases of this in E&W which cost them their top class status.
      The infected beast and its ‘family’ have all been put down; largely helped by the EU system – however much a pest to farmers – to trace where it came from and all its subsequent ‘family’. Not a lot in the MSM about that fact.

      Although a pain in the neck to Scottish DEFRA vets it is therefore containable and will probably not affect the international Meat Convention next week as Scotch beef has such a great reputation.
      Well done to those Scottish Tories pushing for Trump’s hormone packed beef imports. Now we know why it is cheaper.
      Any bets on these unionist turncoats being first in the queue to munch on a TrumpBurger?

    109. Alison Thewliss tweet on the hypocrisy of British Labour in Glasgow,

      `People who fail to maintain glass houses shouldn’t throw stones` .

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the British nationalist world view. They consider N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales to be subordinate to England’s will, and consider Britain to be One Nation. British nationalism is intrinsically a philosophy associated with English Conservative , and drips with myopic Tory chauvinism and a desire to assimilate with the English identity.

      Nationalism as a Social Imaginary: Negotiations of Social Signification and (Dis)Integrating Discourses in Britain, France and Poland

      ….Moving partly away from questions of integration, the forces that undermine the Union are to be found in the ‘counter’ regional nationalisms of this ‘nation of nations’:

      “Perhaps in the past we could get by with a Britishness that was assumed without being explicitly stated. But when our country is being challenged in Scotland, Wales and now England by secessionists, it is right to be explicit about what we, the British people, share in common and the patriotic vision for our country’s future.”471

      At first glance, Brown’s promotion of nationalism appears explicitly civic albeit clouded in a very traditional rhetoric.472 Looking at the elements with which Brown proposes to fill in the space opened by the lack of national identity, they appear indeed as very traditional. Brown, certainly influenced by his higher education in history, heavily relies on key political events in what is presented as the “golden thread” of British history which, as Brown states, have “woven together […] “our central beliefs [which] are a commitment to – liberty for all, responsibility by all and fairness to all.”473

      On the the key political events, Brown continues:

      ““[…] there is […] a golden thread which runs through British history – that runs from that long ago day in Runnymede in 1215; on to the Bill of Rights in 1689 where Britain became the first country to successfully assert the power of Parliament over the King; to not just one, but four great Reform Acts in less than a hundred years – of the individual standing firm against tyranny and then – an even more generous, expansive view of liberty – the idea of government accountable to the people, evolving into the exciting idea of empowering citizens to control their own lives. […] Of course the appeal to fairness runs through British history, from early opposition to the first poll tax in 1318 to the second; fairness the theme from the civil war debates […] to the 1940s when Orwell talked of a Britain known to the world for its ‘decency’.”474

      https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00617618v3/document

    111. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Ken500/Essexville, that was great, like Punch & Judy.

      9/10

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. Just as the EU and the former Soviet Union, Britain is not a suitable target for patriotism as it is a unitary state. It is only possible to be a patriot to one’s home nation. Loyalty towards a unitary state is defined as nationalism and so is intrinsically illiberal in nature.

    113. Valerie says:

      @ RJS

      It’s hard to believe, and academics do struggle to describe it, that we arrived here purely on the basis of Tory monumental arrogance, misplaced sense of superiority, and blind faith that the 27 would capitulate before the might of Empire.

      There has never been a plan, a strategy, other than consistent bullish denial, and refusal to acknowledge the Rights and concerns of other countries.

      I don’t think I’ve EVER heard a Tory show understanding or empathy for the 27 trying to protect their concerns.

      I’m not surprised, just weary that so many of public refuse to see that we are the furthest down the list of concerns for May’s cabal.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, that should have been , loyalty to a unitary state is defined as cultural nationalism… Of course, real life isn’t straight forward, British nationalism also contains an element of civic nationalism but tends towards authoritarian culturalism (see Brexit).

      Are there good and bad nationalisms?

      ABSTRACT. Writers on nationalism have continued to use the distinction between civic and cultural nationalisms; and to suggest that the former has liberal connotations while the latter is intrinsically illiberal and authoritarian. This rests in part on the argument that the civic bond is rational and voluntaristic while the cultural bond is irrational and ascriptive; in part on the argument that the presence of the middle classes is conducive to liberal politics; and in part on the argument that cultural nationalism is illiberal because of its reactive origins. These arguments are critically examined, and then are reformulated to suggest that the liberalism or illiberalism of nationalism might not be related to its cultural or civic basis, but might depend both upon whether the class articulating the nationalism is marginalised or upwardly mobile; and upon whether the wider society becomes focused upon ressentiment in relation to threatening others, or on developing a self-generated identity.

      https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20170223073507257-0340:S1354507899000262:S135450789900026Xa.pdf

    115. galamcennalath says:

      670,000, some say, marching London. That’s a loud voice.

      Both EURef and IndyRef1 were cockups. Different, but they had one thing in common. Fool Cameron allowed the winning side to take a position which was totally undocumented with no prospectus nor plan. However, those winning sides made plenty of promises and told many lies. In each case (IMO) gullible voters were taken in and swung it.

      Neither was a triumph for democracy. Both were won by propaganda, manipulation, and subterfuge.

      UKnotsoOK.

    116. brewsed says:

      O/T – apologies

      There are a few people, possible tens of thousands of them, wandering through London today. If the numbers claimed are accurate, as a percentage of population, this represents about half the same number of people who wandered aimlessly down the High Street in Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago before having a picnic in someone’s back garden. It is, of course, of absolutely no surprise that the msm is reporting on today’s march while it almost completely ignored the Edinburgh one despite, as noted, it having, as a percentage of population, double the number of people. Other than the Guardian’s Severin Carrell noting there were ‘tens of thousands die hard nationalists’.

    117. CameronB Brodie says:

      Severin Carrell has a very shallow understand of nationalism and democracy.

    118. galamcennalath says:

      I see the media pushing the idea that the People’s Vote would be a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

      Surely it has by now become obvious that the final deal will be many years away. The Withdrawal Agreement and accompanying vague unbinding future framework statement will tell us nothing about the future trade deal – which is of course the real final deal.

      Assuming May gets a WA, and WM approves if (big assumptions right now) then we have a long transition period of effectively status quo.

      And assuming a trade deal is agreed (yet another big assumption) it could be anything on a wide spectrum.

      The People’s Vote is not proposed to pass judgement on any ‘deal’. It’s all about reversing Brexit all together. They should at least be honest and not behave like dishonest Leave did.

      Scotland? Our ‘People’s Vote’ should be held to pass judgement on the Union and whether it has a future.

    119. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says: 20 October, 2018 at 4:19 pm?

      ” … Severin Carrell has a very shallow understand of nationalism and democracy.”

      Severin Carrell has a very shallow understanding of everything – including Severin Carrell.

    120. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Valerie –

      Yeah, agreed – we very rarely hear about Brexit from the point of view of the ‘other’ 27 countries who have their own lives to get on with.

      I’m amazed at the patience shown by Juncker, Tusk, Verhofstadt, Barnier and their staff but it wouldn’t be a great surprise if one of them cracked and just said, ‘Know what? We have a lot of serious business to get on with and we’ve wasted more than enough time on you ignorant arrogant wankers – so please do us all a huge favour and fuck right off, once and for all, back to the eighteenth-century where you belong.’

    121. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 45 minutes ago:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXYZQBNenus

    122. Cactus says:

      Aye, wae friends like these, who needs enemies…

      Hands up:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxNkQ3d2cmo&pbjreload=10

      Raise yer hauns:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvHK4Bt1Y8

      Lend me yer fears:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s-dSoDptVc

      Buck-toothed May is the rabbit doon Alice’s hole…

      Aye do wonder.

    123. Hamish100 says:

      ot/

      Sarah Smith and the BBC
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45925720

      Just a bad decision by the BBC or a potential trap for the First Minister.

    124. Meg merrilees says:

      What a chilling cartoon! It suns up WM morals. Given the current situation with Turkey/ Saudi Arabia I don;t hear many countries cancelling their weapons deals with the Saudis.

      Definitely blood on those hands – the blood red lines Arlene is referring to.
      I notice Fluffy is threatening to resign – again! this time over the Fisheries policy. If there is an extended brexit transition, the NE fisherfolk will have to stay in the CFP and this will overlap into the next Holyrood elections. It could affect the outcome of their tory NE Enclave.

      Of course, if Nicola disnae use her mandate in this parliament then she must have a majority in the next election and NE fishermen being forced to stay in the CFP could just turn those voters against the ineffective Tories and cost them seats.

      This is more important to Fluffy than a good deal for scotland hence his second ( or is this a real one) threat to resign…..

      Tractor.

    125. galamcennalath says:

      Hamish100 says:

      Just a bad decision by the BBC or a potential trap for the First Minister.

      Trap IMO. Respectable figures should not share platforms with fascists.

      ” Event organisers, the EBU, said Mr Bannon was a “key influencer” in the rise of populism.

      “We also consider it our journalistic responsibility to share and scrutinise a range of relevant viewpoints within the framework of a balanced debate”, they added. “

      Reminds me of the tale. One man said it’s raining, another said it’s dry. A journalist’s job is NOT to report both ‘opinions’, it is to look out the window and find out who’s lying. And calling out the liar should be the story reported.

    126. Meg merrilees says:

      Robert Peffers @ 5.04

      Well Robert,

      Maybe the Scottish tories will be instrumental in breaking the Union. if they vote down an extended Transition because of the fisheries policy, they are in effect voting for the worst possible deal for Scotland – a no deal Brexit.
      This would surely force a backstop which would require a border in the Irish Sea because the EU will not agree to a hard border between North and South Ireland because of the GFA.

      But (T)Ruthless has already said she can’t have a border in the Irish sea that because she’ll resign if Treeza goes against the DUP… what is a PM to do…

      Knowing T may she’ll do what she wants and they will all have to jump but it is a conundrum….

    127. Galamcennalath.

      Trap!

      Nicola has deftly avoided that one and stated that she is concerned that the BBC should not be putting people in these sort of awkward situations. She also called the out for giving a voice to what is effectively fascism.

      Nice one!

    128. Petra says:

      Gordon Ross reminding us, for one, that using a General Election to cover our Independence Referendum would be detrimental, due to EU nationals and 16/17 year olds not being allowed a vote.

      Indycar Gordon Ross 19 10 18, Fish Culloden and No Deal on Fluffy resigning

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_o4jd2uRgo

    129. orri says:

      The thing about May being shown with a Union Jack in the background showing mainly the red cross bit is that sometimes the blue is so dark as to seem black. It’s a colour scheme that seems somewhat familiar. Just lacking a central design element or a lightning motif.

    130. Dr Jim says:

      How do you say SNP Baad without actually saying it

      Well you do a report like this: *Glasgow City Council took the life blood out of Glasgow and ruined thousands of peoples lives by closing Paddies market promising to regenerate the area, ten years on and they’ve done nothing*

      This is while showing you archive film of the market in full swing then a picure of derelection

      Who’s in charge eh the cooncil then, that’s the SNP, aye see thame they’re rubbish nucghing but promises

      Job done for a quick SNP Baad there

    131. schrodingers cat says:

      Petra says:
      Gordon Ross reminding us, for one, that using a General Election to cover our Independence Referendum would be detrimental, due to EU nationals and 16/17 year olds not being allowed a vote.

      ———————

      he is right, we already have a clear mandate from the population in the he 2016

      why would we re run a competition we have already won?

      nicola should stick to her guns, a ge manifesto should be about pushing sm/cu at westminster. this is consistent with her position all through these past few years.

      indy wont come from WM, the numbers are against us. the route to indy is via holyrood

    132. Fireproofjim says:

      The event organisers the EBU say that “Steve Bannon was a key influencer in the rise of populism”
      So was Hitler. Would the EBU have invited him?
      Nicola is wise to avoid that can of worms.

    133. Ken500 says:

      @ 1/10 Essex

    134. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      20 October, 2018 at 10:59 am

      “They went after Alex Salmond because he knows where the bodies are buried.”

      Nicola’s SNP government has fully backed the civil servant who is trying to bring Alex Salmond down and is going to vigorously defend her against Salmond.

      How are you going to whitewash that?

    135. gus1940 says:

      All the Brexit talk just now is over the NI problem.

      Everybody seems to have forgotten about the EU’s 4 Freedoms none of which will ever be accepted by the Brexit loonies and none of which the EU will give way on.

    136. Rock says:

      Valerie says:
      20 October, 2018 at 11:18 am

      “There is only one person who decides if you cannot post on here, and it ain’t Ken500, so don’t be asking him!”

      Valerie (1st July 2016 – “All things are relative”):

      “@Rock

      Fuck right off. Have a break, and stop working for the unionists.”

      Rock (1st July 2016 – “All things are relative”):

      “May I gently remind you, and the likes of you, that this website does not belong to you.

      If and when the owner tells me to stop posting, I will.

      For the record, I have never, ever told any poster to stop posting, let alone to “Fuck right off”.”

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      O/T Steve Bannon is a dangerous, fascistic, Islamophobe. He shouldn’t be allowed into Britain, let alone be given a public platform to spread intolerance and hatred.

      Philosophy in the Contemporary World: The Moral Imperative to Assume the Worst—Philosophy’s Response to Donald Trump

      With the election of Donald Trump, the United States finds itself in a moment of what is known, in the wretched Nazi euphemism, as Gleichschaltung: falling into line, forced assimilation, coordination. One could hear it already in the voice of Anderson Cooper in the wee hours of election night as the unimaginable became inevitable, as the map assumed that eerily pockmarked red surface now familiar to us all. One can see it in the cowardly falling into line of the ‘Never Trump’ Republicans, with none more obsequious than the fallen Wunderkind Paul Ryan. One sees it as the Mitt Romneys and Al Gores of the nation strut across the stage of the cabinet-selection-turned-beauty-pageant graciously presented to the nation by ringmaster Trump.

      Meanwhile, Neo-Nazi groups cloak themselves in the dangerously misleading euphemism ‘alt-right’ and hate crimes are on the rise. We are normalizing Trump, devouring his spectacle, clicking on his latest tweet bait. Even such venerable institutions as the New York Times follow the latest red herring and let—among other things—the news of Trump’s $25 million fraud claim for the sham Trump University cascade down the list of priorities. As I write Trump has already begun to target the civil service by disturbing questionnaires in the Department of Energy. Ideological alignment of the civil service is an essential starting point for serious Gleichschaltung.

      https://blog.apaonline.org/2016/12/19/philosophy-in-the-contemporary-world-the-moral-imperative-to-assume-the-worst-philosophys-response-to-donald-trump/

      British nationalism is intrinsically authoritarian and fascistic in nature. For example, how many Whitehall civil servants were given gongs for fucking over Scottish democracy Gleichschaltung to the One Nation ideology?

    138. Iain mhor says:

      @Mike Cassidy 11:05am
      Good link cheers.
      I’m not entirely sure the article is a comprehensive whole picture, but taken at face value it certainly helps apply Occams Razor to a few theories.
      Certainly I couldn’t help feeling Tax wasn’t the whole picture, because I couldn’t square any EU tax crackdown which affected London so badly that it wouldn’t have collapsed Luxembourg entirely!

    139. orri says:

      One problem the mad bad Brexiteeren haben ist that there are a fair amount of EU citizens working in the UK who have applied for and received British citizenship and alongside that the right to vote in future referenda and elections. With a lot of those who voted Leave changing their minds along with those who didn’t vote at all regretting that then if A50 can be withdrawn as the result of a People’s Vote they must be bricking it.

    140. starlaw says:

      After todays massive march in London I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn will suddenly see the light and run to lead this new referendum campaign.

    141. Malky says:

      Gives new meaning to the Red Hand of Ulster, non? They won’t be happy with this, Chris. Many thanks – should be printed in MSM, but won’t. Ever.

    142. McDuff says:

      Rock is ok.
      o/t
      I see the new movie about Robert the Bruce seems to be getting the coverage as was given Outlander ie zero.
      There has been though heavy promotion of Peterloo the movie about the massacre of peaceful demonstrators in Manchester in the early 1800`s who were protesting against poverty. Laudable subject but why the lack of publicity for `The Rebel King“.
      Do I need to ask.
      I really do hate this UK and its determination to eliminate Scottish history and culture.

    143. Scott says:

      Re Steve Bannon.

      This made me wonder what the BBC was on about in their article.

      They added: “Good journalism in a world of fake news and disinformation is more vital than ever.

      “Journalism is about asking tough questions and understanding what is happening in the world and why.

      When are they going to be asking Davidson and Mundell tough questions,come on BBC we have been waiting a long time for you to ask them tough questions

    144. Capella says:

      Nicola is very wise to boycott the BBC sponsored event with Steve Bannon. There will probably be protesters outside with placards which the BBC can then splice into footage of Nicola addressing the audience. They are devious enough to do that as we know.

    145. Ken500 says:

      Sorry Rev Stu. Will go back in the box and love everyone. Love is all around everywhere you go. Love all unionists they are perfect in every way. OK. x x x . It’s love all unionists day. Tomorrow. Sunday day off. Psalm Remain day. Brexit. Breakfast. No hassle. No fuss.

    146. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , dead right and Ally McCoist would testify to the deviousness of BBBC Scotland and the art of juxtapositioning and our own FM will well remember a certain gorilla.

      I sure as hell do.

    147. Phronesis says:

      There is an alternative to the economy of the industrial military complex – we need enlightened leaders of new models of democracy to dissociate from corrupt, despicable regimes. Those who continue to fund the machinery of war ,famine and pestilence are neither enlightened nor representatives of democracy.

      ‘UN and humanitarian organisations have not even counted the number of Yemenis who have died – the cited figure has stuck at 10,000 for more than two years. Nevertheless, the UN blames Saudi air strikes for the majority of deaths from military action. Fatalities have surged during the Hodeidah offensive as famine stalks Yemen, the poorest country in the region.’

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/saudi-led-war-in-yemen-risks-plunging-half-population-into-famine-1.3668323

      ‘White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders’s bland acknowledgment of Khashoggi’s death and announcement that the White House would continue to “follow” international investigations (that would be the Saudi’s self-investigation?) reminds one of Hannah Arendt’s phrase “the banality of evil.’

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/10/20/the-saudis-and-trump-insult-our-intelligence-congress-shouldnt/?utm_term=.028e798f6ec0

      ‘By supplying Saudi Arabia the UK is endorsing its brutal regime and diminishing the importance of human rights and political freedom. There is also a great deal of evidence to suggest that Saudi Arabia is far from a reliable end-user of UK weapons. Saudi Arabia has secretly funded resistance movements around the world, often at the behest of certain elements in the US Administration in return for arms packages, and strong evidence suggests that Saudi Arabia diverted arms to Iraq via Jordan and funded the Iraqi nuclear programme in order to acquire its own nuclear capability, despite signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 1988.’

      https://www.caat.org.uk/resources/countries/saudi-arabia/arabian-connection#section24

    148. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland needs to get its head out of England’s fundament……and that right quickly.
      This is becoming tedious, boring, repetitive. We require action from our (selfstyled)leaders.
      Enough of politics….

    149. Elmac says:

      Re Ken500 @ 7.48

      Don’t take the hump. Most of us appreciate your posts complete with typos. They may be repetitious but it helps to drum home the basics of what we are up against. Just remember we can’t all agree all of the time and everybody’s view is entitled to equal respect (Trolls excluded).

    150. schrodingers cat says:

      re the peoples vote

      Im conflicted by this and am not convinced it is the right way to go. I am reminded of the 2011 AV ref put forward by the libdem coalition. unfortunately, while many people recognised the need to reform the electoral procedure at WM, many people voted against it simply to give the libdems a bloody nose for their uturn on tuition fees.

      with the euref, the demographics show that amongst the younger sections of the population, eu membership is very very popular, this popularity reduces as the age of the population increases.

      this tells me one thing, the uk/england and wales will rejoin the eu sometime in the next 5/10 years.

      but the problem for the peoplesvote folk is that all of the tory and labour mps were elected specifically on manifesto commitments to leave the eu and the sm and the cu, treezas good deal, redwhiteblue brexit is as much cakism as corbyns jobs first brexit or A CU not THE CU. we know that these 3rd way options dont exist, they never have.

      neither the tories or labour have a manifesto commitment to an euref2 and so dont have a mandate of any kind to demand euref2. neither does the snp.

      the correct way to do this is to stand in a ge with euref2 on the manifesto, win and then hold euref2. parties and politicians who try to circumnavigate the existing system (however badly flawed it is and for whatever reason) have a history of being punished by the electorate

      the euref2 could be fatal to the pro eu block

    151. Rock says:

      Ken500 gets carried away and posts a lot of fake news and uses very abusive language (including against me).

      But unlike the usual suspects, he is not a nasty guy.

      In my humble opinion.

    152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      starlaw @ 19:00,

      Naw. He has neither the guts nor the personal inclination.

      But he likely will get his party to help vote through Theresa’s “transitional” CU, and lever us out by thus avoiding a showdown.

      “Better together”, y’know.

    153. Hamish100 says:

      Why is the so-called Public broadcaster the bbc jointly hosting an event with extreme right winger invited with “Tickets for the event start at €300 and rise to €1,695”?

      I take it if your’e from a housing scheme you may find the price a wee bit dear compared to a trip on the local tram.

      Will Sarah Smith be paid a retainer? How will BBC Question Time ensure a balanced audience (I know, we know its selectively biased.)

      Maybe a wee enquiry into the bbc funding of this will take place?

      Further no public sector funded bodies should spend 1 penny on sending anyone to this. Public statement from Local government, Universities and Colleges please.

    154. Robert Peffers says:

      This is a general reply to several Wingers. There has been some claims made that really are misleading. Mostly these are based around false premises.

      It isn’t easy to answer them all. never mind answer them in one comment. So let’s just step back and see how the United Kingdom came about while looking at the laws that are involved.

      First read this – it may open a few eyes:-

      https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/robert-the-bruce-champion-of-scotland-or-murderous-usurper/

      Here we see that the English were assuming sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland. Then, on 10 February 1306, the most important political murder in Scottish history happened. John, “The Red”, Comyn, was slaughtered by Robert Bruce, and his followers in the church of the Franciscans, (The Greyfriars), at Dumfries.

      However, was the English Kingdom’s assumptions of assumed sovereignty legal under the two independent kingdoms rules of law? The answer is no, and even today, the two kingdoms still retain their own independent Rules of Law.

      In Scotland the royal person’s sovereignty has no place under the Scottish Rule of Law and monarchs, (or their delegates), are answerable to the people of Scotland under the independent Scottish Rule of Law but in those far of days and right up until 1688 the Rule of Law in England was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, (a.k.a. sovereignty).

      Thus the English claim of sovereignty had no place in Scots, English or international law on 10 February 1306 so under international law it was an illegal occupation under Scottish, English and international law. Bruce was quite legally fighting to uphold his country’s sovereignty and that was before he was chosen as King.

      What followed was the crowning of Bruce as King and the Scottish wars of independence and On 23 and 24 June 1314, Robert Bruce, now king of Scotland, faced King Edward II at Bannockburn in the decisive battle of the Wars of Scottish Independence but perhaps the significance of that too is lost on many Scots.

      In the English Kingdom of 1314, “Divine Right of Kings”, was still the law but in Scotland sovereignty legally still rested with the people of Scotland and it still does.

      Thus under English law the winning monarch had sovereign claim to annex the Kingdom of England but under Scottish law he did not. This is reflected in the Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty of 17 March 1328.

      It wasn’t very long before England ignored and broke that treaty but it is still an international treaty and is part of the long story of Perfidious Albion’s treachery.

      So the agree royal marriage was to have repercussions when in the fullness of time a Scots Monarch inherited the crowns, all three of them, of the Kingdom of England in 1603 and at which time the rule of law in England was still Divine right of Kings but not under Scotland’s laws.

      Thus in spite of English claims there was no Union of the Crowns in 1603 except as a personal union for the monarch himself but Westminster acted as if there was – and that kicked off the Jacobite Uprisings with the Scots fighting to retain their legal sovereignty and those uprising continued for just short of 40 years after the English, with the aid of Paircel o Rogues, forced the Treaty of Union between only those two kingdoms in 1706/7.

      Yet that Treaty of Union avers that the two Kingdoms are equally sovereign partners in the United Kingdom and must forever retain their individual independent legal systems forever.

      Which brings us bang up to date and not a damned thing has changed legally since before Bruce slew the Comyn.

      Now that is where we are today and it is where your state broadcasters and dead tree press and your Westminster representatives, (both for and against), are keeping so quiet about, (for their own different reasons).

      If Wingers have been keeping up to date they will know that the SGs legal people have put forward the Scottish Claim of Right and the Westminster lot have not defended it. That is tantamount to admission that it is correct unless it is subsequently challenged and it has now been challenged but in the Westminster instigated Supreme court but that is now being taken to the ECJ who say they will, as a matter of urgency, fast track it.

      So there you go. We are not going to get Westminster to play fair they never have, they will not freely admit to Scottish people’s legal sovereignty, they never have before.

      However, the SG has backed them into a corner and taken the matter out of Westminster’s hands and still Theresa is claiming that it is a United Kingdom vote but that, in itself is an admission of refusal to acknowledge the union is a bipartite union of kingdoms and an indirect claim the United Kingdom isn’t a united kingdom but is instead a unified country.

      It cannot be a union of four countries, a union of two kingdoms, a de facto country of England devolving English powers to three countries or any of those combinations at the same time and it is, after all titled The United Kingdom with only two signatories on the Treaty of Union.

      So Nicola only has a mandate from the people of Scotland, (and from Holyrood), to hold a second referendum – she has no majority mandate to end the Union and there are more than enough unionist backed up by the Westminster black ops loons and such as the OO and unionist Brit/English Nationalists that she cannot yet guarantee a majority vote for ending the Union.

      Yet here on Wings we have lots of Wingers who claim to support independence attempting to force Nicola to call an indyref2 she obviously believes is a rather uncertain winner.

      Now why would genuine in dependant supporters want to do that?

      I am certain that independence is not coming from a second referendum but, after a legal affirmation of Scottish sovereignty, a majority of Scots voting the union is over.

    155. One_Scot says:

      My opinion, for what it is worth, each and every one of us needs to stand as tall as we can right now. The next few months of our lives may well be the most difficult we have ever had to endure.

      We are on the brink of changing the lives of countless children not yet born who will never know the passion and desire we had to improve their future.

      Look into the distance, not the here and now. Give everything you can give, as we may never have this chance again.

    156. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 20:08,

      I don’t reckon there will be one.

      Essentially for the reasons you give. Labour is split and the FibDems too small, the state broadcaster is pushng “no going back”, so there’s no fulcrum for the (popular) lever.

      Even a demand proved by petition signatures of millions can be ignored. “Purely advisory”, y’see!

      The only thing I can envisage that could change that would be some significant constitutional challenge. Ironically enough, since the (in)famous flexible British so-called Constitution generally allows the UK regime of the day to trample over any legitimate objections in order to get whatever it wants.

      I’m not sure the current cases before the courts are sufficient, even though they clearly have got the UKGov worried. Art.50 has proved a troublesome little thing. Has its capabilities for putting spanners in the works been fully exhausted yet? Is there still time?

    157. Daisy Walker says:

      @Essexexile says:
      20 October, 2018 at 8:43 am
      Tory snouts in the trough away from Westminster is merely white noise, hardly news worthy.
      But the nano second Salmond spends one penny of that crowdfunded £100k on anything the media deems to be unrelated to his defence, it’ll be splashed across every front page.
      I still maintain that the crowdfunding wasn’t a smart move from an increasingly loose cannon addicted to confrontation. He’s handed the Unionists a big stick to beat him with.
      We must be smarter in everything we do.’

      Hello Essexexile,

      Welcome to YES.

      I very much disagree with all of what you say in the above. But I don’t approve of you being called abusive names.

      I heard about AS’s fundraiser the day it started, and within the hour I contributed, then I watched and kept watching as it smashed its total before the deadline. It was a magnificent, grass root, GIRFUY (not you – the establishment) moment that I will remember for a long time. And so will the establishment.

      There has been a blank cheque promised to any journalist who can ever get ‘the dirt’ on AS, and they have been trying for a very, very long time. That speaks volumes. Far from being a ‘loose cannon’. From what I have seen as a voter in Scotland for 27 years, he has been a consistently brilliant one. No wonder they hate him. Please bear in mind the way the media operate here and in England.

      Kind regards to all.

    158. Essexexile says:

      Integrity personified is the FM. As usual, she calmly makes the right decision without fuss or self importance.

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      A bit O/T but still linked to the stinking values of the Establishment. England is reconsidering Brexit because they see it was corrupt. Structural racism isn’t simply a problem for non-whites, it undermines the potential for a functional democracy (see Brexit).

      If only the BBC in Scotland were a proper news service, instead of a propaganda outlet.

      Brexit is showing the urban middle classes the real Britain

      ….Ever since Cromwell, the success of the British ruling class has been that it has managed to placate and buy off much of the bourgeoisie with the plunder of empire. With violence externally, they were able to produce calm internally. For the last few decades, they have swapped this loot for lending as they allowed middle class lifestyles to continue on credit. But in the decade after the financial crisis, this relationship has started to strain. And it increasingly looks like Brexit is encouraging large chunks of middle class Anglo-Britain to look once more at the whole arrangement and realise that their country isn’t as rosy as they thought….

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/brexit-is-showing-urban-middle-classes-real-britain

    160. Elmac says:

      Most of us will be appalled by the ongoing war in Yemen which is responsible for thousands of deaths to date and potentially much more to come due to military activity, famine and disease. The root cause appears to be a power struggle involving the Sunni/Shia religious divide and 3rd parties with a foot in either camp. You have to ask yourself what kind of benificent, caring God do these protagonists believe in? Our government takes sides on economic considerations and in the meantime the innocents continue to suffer and die in their thousands. What kind of god do the Tories believe in and how can they sleep at night? Presumably their god is Mammon.

      I would hope that an independent Scotland will take a different stance and use whatever influence they might have to resolve disputes rather than help equip one side with the necessary to murder the other.

    161. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 8.17 pm
      You wrote:
      “”In Scotland the royal person’s sovereignty has no place under the Scottish Rule of Law and monarchs, (or their delegates), are answerable to the people of Scotland under the independent Scottish Rule of Law but in those far of days and right up until 1688 the Rule of Law in England was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, (a.k.a. sovereignty).””

      How does this statement that the “royal person’s sovereignty has no place in the Scottish Rule of Law and monarchs” fit with the Sovereignty Act of 1584 passed by the Scots Parliament? See link below

      https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1584/2/paragraph/p1

      As to the Divine Right of Kings it was not solely an English idea/philosophy. James VI and I wrote several textbooks on the subject long before he succeeded Elizabeth Tudor in 1603.

    162. Capella says:

      I read The National article on the Westminster Government appealing to the Supreme court in order to prevent a decision by the ECJ on cancelling Artical 50 and so preventing BREXIT.

      What is most striking is the long and detailed comment by Maria Carnero, 4th comment down.

      Every day, every move these tory crooks make it becomes more and more clear they are desperate to implement brexit what come may. Any condition, including a no deal, no matter how harming for the UK in every aspect, is better for them than remaining in the EU. One can only ask why. What can possibly be more valuable for this government of tory crooks than the integrity of the UK. What can possibly be more valuable than a wealthy economy that ensures survival of that government and the state itself.

      She then goes on to describe 11 points at issue, each damning and shameful to the Westminster government. Dark money, illegal campaigning, refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s vote etc etc.

      Worth a read IMO. I can’t link to the quote itself so you will have to scroll down to comments if you want to read it.
      Thx to whoever originally linked to this.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16995969.date-set-in-uks-challenge-to-scottish-courts-brexit-ruling/

    163. Iain mhor says:

      @ottomanboi 8:01pm

      Yes enough of politics, time to pick up the guns eh?
      After all peace grows out the barrel of them.
      Truisms are so named because of their kernel of truth.
      It is known that nations are born from violence.
      We know that peace grows from violence.
      That’s the easy way.
      Scotland appears to be attempting to renew it’s Independence without resorting to that again – Again, the operative word is ‘again’ – Scotland has had its fair shares of bloody war and violence in case you hadn’t noticed or have not been a student of our history.
      So if you are really fed up that the independence movement hasn’t resorted to bloody violence, despite your childishly unsubtle constant snidey exhortations; then pick up the gun yourself and batter down the Gallowgate or Sauchiehall Street and see how far you get.
      “Scotland the Brave” is being mocked as an empty slogan.
      What is brave is forging a nation anew without bloodshed, there’s no bravery behind violence. Fear is behind violence. Ignorance is behind violence, Evil is behind violence. These are not fertile seeds to grow a Nation.

      But perhaps I misconstrue the meaning behind a lot of your posts. If I am wrong I stand to be corrected, as ever.

    164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 20:17:

      Yet here on Wings we have lots of Wingers who claim to support independence attempting to force Nicola to call an indyref2 she obviously believes is a rather uncertain winner.

      Well, this rather goes to the crux of things, RP. In return you have to face up to the fact that there likely will never be a clear assurance of success. Never. So what practical solution do you propose? There has to be a better plan than just waiting for Godot!

      You like to impugn we who urge action soon as somehow plotting to “force Nicola” (?!) to make indy fail. That’s utterly misplaced. (Maybe we even have more confidence in her good judgement than you seem to have.) It’s high-stakes exactly because it’s so important. However, we can’t let that browbeat us into being feart to ever make our move, or even showing any hint of it, which can only demoralise.

      You have to face up to the remorseless fact that there is no free lunch: a win won’t fall into our lap by happy accident – we can only win by acting to bring things to a head and taking people with us. It requires astute timing, absolutely, but it also requires self-confidence, both in ourselves and in our fellow citizens. As Alex Salmond clearly had in taking us substantially forward before.

      It’s very simple: we can never win the battle as long as we keep running away. It’s not an easy call, no-one pretends it is, but if we remain passive and keep stalling too long, people will slowly lose heart, confidence will ebb, and the precious opportunity we currently enjoy will be lost, to the bitter regret of us all.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      Well said and sorry for snapping the other night.

    166. orri says:

      Interestingly once you get past the awkward spelling that Sovereignty Act does nothing to overturn the Declaration of Arbroath and the right of the people to replace their king.

      It doesn’t give him anything other that the right not to have his judgements questioned. It doesn’t say a thing about being able to create laws.

    167. RJS

      The one who is constantly running away is Theresa May.

      The irish backstop; Chequers proposal, a meaningful vote in Parliament, extending the transition period, ‘now is not the time’ seems to be her attitude throughout for all decisions.

      If she wasn’t worried about the Tories losing government she would allow a second indy ref, a second EU ref, a meaningful vote in Parllament. She can’t make jher own decisions as she is puppet of the DUP, Rees-mogg, Davidson, Trump and others.

      She is trying to keep everyone happy and in so doing is pleasing no-one.

      Her political end will come swiftly and there will be a whirlwind of change as various decisions are taken.

      That is when we act but with the almighty mess she is making in Europe and Ireland the Union could fall elsewhere with no help from us.

      And with luck Fluffy will also have resigned!

    168. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      20 October, 2018 at 8:17 pm

      …..Yet here on Wings we have lots of Wingers who claim to support independence attempting to force Nicola to call an indyref2 she obviously believes is a rather uncertain winner.

      Now why would genuine in dependant supporters want to do that?

      I am certain that independence is not coming from a second referendum but, after a legal affirmation of Scottish sovereignty, a majority of Scots voting the union is over.

      Break the Union, declare the terms of Union breached and the Union ceases to exist. It then falls on the Unionists, not the Independentist, to win a sovereign mandate and majority to create a new Union with England, and a new Union which magically resolves the same Constitutional anomalies which the current Union simply fudges in sophistry. Aye, good luck with that all Unionists.

      Scotland might thus open its Constitutional Pandora’s Box WITHOUT Westminster’s hand in the till, and safe within it’s own legal legitimacy and recognised Sovereign status, and where the myth of English/Westminster sovereignty is NOT allowed to interfere with Scotland’s Constitutional integrity.

      You seem blind to the LEGITIMATE and measured frustration felt by many, that Scotland passes up one Constitutional open goal after another, and fails time and again to transform the dispute of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty from theory into practice. This “procrastination” seems ambivalent about the EU Membership and Scotland’s Sovereign voice, it is about to cost Scotland it’s European citizenship, and I for one, am bloody incensed by that, because it is a wholly avoidable catastrophe for our people and our Nation.

      If Scotland allows its sovereign voice which chose to remain in the EU to be overruled, whether that is overruled by Westminster or Holyrood, then where does that leave any subsequent Scottish referendum mandate once it has already been stripped of it’s sovereign potency? The voice of Scotland ceases to be a sovereign edict and becomes a non-binding consultation. That is literally unconstitutional – period.

      Stop the rot. Stop the plundering of our resources. Stop the exploitation of our people. Stop the bullshit and deluge of “foreign” propaganda. Stop our involuntary expulsion from Europe as directed by a democratic sovereign mandate from the people. Make safe our legal sovereign legitimacy, and do it now.

    169. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      pretty much agree with everything in yer post

      the tory party war/challenge/whatever will result in a ge. no question.

      indeed, corbyns plans assume this will be the case.
      i dare say that corbyn thinks he can win against a no deal brexit tory pm, peronally i dont. eitherway a ge is as much a peoples vote as a referendum

      thing is, to win a ge you need about 40% of the vote, ref needs 50%, thats why the 2 main parties prefer a ge, not an euref2.

      result…. no euref but a peoples vote ge.

    170. Bob Mack says:

      The Sovereignty Act was of course introduced via the Scottish parliament by supporters of King James to ensure the Scottish Crown had equal power to that of England. However
      1. The Scottish nobles had no authority from the people to do so.
      2, There is also an interesting line which states that the King would have all these powers “as much as any King of Scotland before”

      That is saying basically nothing much changes.

    171. Douglas says:

      The Channel 4 evening news did not shine a positive light on the People’s March in London, claiming the marchers to be a crowd eccentrics…

    172. galamcennalath says:

      Tories …. either away with fairies, or playing some astonishly mad bad games!

      The Telegraph reports ….

      “The UK must not agree to extend the Brexit transition period unless the EU ditches its demand for a backstop, the Brexit Secretary suggests today.”

      WTF! As I understand it, the transition extension is a carrot/incentive to delay the backstop. If trade talks go well, then the backstop might never be needed. This offer of something extra was made for the UK’s benefit.

      So, the Tories turn it all on its head and say the don’t want an extension unless the backstop is dropped!

      At this late stage!

      As far as I am concerned, that now seems conclusive prove that the Tories want to derail the talks completely and move to a no deal Brexit.

    173. Dr Jim says:

      I do hope this is correct @ Robert Peffers

      Does it really matter if 20 million people marched in London because if I understand Mr Peffers and correct me if I’m wrong sir the people of England are not sovereign because the Monarchy signed that right away to the English parliament to have that power, and again if I’m correct the only people who actually are sovereign are Scots

      So if we were Independent our government would pay attention to us if we marched in such numbers but again not so in the land of the Engles

      Make me right on this Robert coz the idea just really appeals to me

    174. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      No matter how the Tories engineered it, a No deal Brexit is very unlikely to be the desired result. Parliament won’t accept that and the EU will help all it can to avoid it.

      Both a General election or a second EU referendum vote are more likely than a straight out no deal. True the end result may still be a no deal but I think that unlikely.

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @Essexexile “As I have been drawn to yes, principally by the measured, progressive approach of the current FM, I have actually shifted very little in my politics.

      When it comes to ordinary issues, rather than the constitutional yes/no divide, there’s very often nothing between the two sides. And you can get yes+no on one side and yes+no on the other side of most issues, education, police, NHS on the various details.

    176. Colin Alexander says:

      Time and again it’s stated in response to criticism of the SNP failing to lead the fight for the exercising of Scotland’s people’s sovereign power and independence:

      Who else but the SNP can deliver?

      Maybe that’s the big question we need to find an answer to, if we are to ever win independence.

      Seems to me too many in the SNP are increasingly getting settled in as the political class in Scotland and as the on-bended-knee richly rewarded servants of the Union.

      —————————-

      Can anyone explain why Carol Monaghan and Angus MacNeil SNP MPs took an expenses paid trip to Gibraltar as UK MPs?

      Which part of the SNP manifesto was that?

      Is it to study the remaining colonial possessions of the Empire, so they can better understand Scotland’s place in the Union?

      How exactly does this further getting independence for Scotland?

    177. Terence callachan says:

      Hello essexexile , welcome, please continue to give your views here.
      Ken500 , your rage here makes you look stupid, really, it does , do yourself a favour and disagree mildly you don’t need to use bad language or insult people to get your point across.
      I personally think Alex Salmond fundraising is fine, it wasn’t compulsory ,contributing was voluntary so why should anyone be able to dictate its validity.No law broken, no crime committed.
      As Brexit gets closer and Scottish independence debate heats up it is best to say what you think in a nice way and point out to those who use bad language and make nasty comments that doing so makes them look stupid, which it does, believe me they will take that on board even if they don’t admit to doing so.

    178. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      Both a General election or a second EU referendum vote are more likely than a straight out no deal.

      You could be right.

      However, with their increasingly outrageous behaviour, what are the Tories trying to achieve? Nothing constructive, it appears.

      The only way there will be a GE or EURef2 is if May is defeated in WM. That would take DUP and rebels voting against her government. Unless, of course, May’s solution is to throw in the towel and let Labour handle the mess. I feel the Tories first choice would be a leadership change. Their membership don’t seem to want a ‘softer’ leader, they want ‘harder’.

      What an astonishing state to get into!

    179. Terence callachan says:

      Hello Colin Alexander
      Have a look at barheadboy website there is a story there with links to the Gibraltar gazette that say Theresa May has reached agreement with the EU on how Gibraltar will Brexit apparently an agreement has been made but is being kept very quiet at present .
      Of course most of the online gambling we all see advertised so much on tv etc is ran by companies that do business in U.K. addicting thousands and thousands of people to gambling causing untold harm, devastation to families here but those companies are registered in Gibraltar and not UK so that they can avoid paying tax, I wonder how many in Westminster own these gambling businesses.
      SNP probably sent people to Gibraltar to find out a bit more about the deal given to Gibraltar .
      Gibralter relies heavily on Spanish people who live in Spain but cross the border to gibralter every day to go to work tens of thousands do this every day which clearly cannot continue unchanged once freedom of movement of people ends after Brexit

    180. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      I agree the mess that has been made is astonishing. The numbers aren’t there in Parliament for No deal though. They are what? maybe 80 out of 650 MP’s that are outright in support of no deal.

      If May does cave in on the backstop, which is looking likely then if parliament support it, we have a deal. If parliament don’t support it, we have a crisis and then the GE or EU2 become the focus as the government will fall.

      If she fails to agree a deal with the EU to put before parliament then on 21st Jan we are in the same position. The government will fall and it’s a new ball game with everything up for grabs.

      I’ll admit a no deal is still possible but only if the voters in the UK show that to be their preference in a second vote of some kind, say electing the Tories again with a Brexiteer leader.

      This galactic f*ck up has a long time to drag out yet and at the end of it the UK will find itself severely damaged in international standing, poorer and more divided than ever.

      We that support Independence in Scotland will take advantage of that but for now I’m content to let the play go on.

    181. Valerie says:

      @ Rock

      Hope you feel better now that you have consulted your wee black book of insults, and found the time I told you to fuck off.

      What an absolute fanny you are, keeping your petty wee tally of insults from Wingers. What a nice hobby for a gammon.

      I tend to never address you, because you are here to disrupt and provoke.

      Make sure you mark down this post, as the time I told you, that you’re a sad wee arse.

      That’s twice I’ve addressed you this year. More fool me.

    182. schrodingers cat says:

      pnr
      agree the mess that has been made is astonishing. The numbers aren’t there in Parliament for No deal though. They are what? maybe 80 out of 650 MP’s that are outright in support of no deal.
      —————-
      wrong, the only stat that matters is

      1. number of tory mps to challenge treeza. what lab,snp,libdems mps think is irrelevant, they wont get a vote in the leaderhip challange within the tory party.

      2. how many tory mps will vote for a candidate (anna subry) on a stay in the sm/cu or cutting ni from britain? answer none. the rank and file tory party members would crucify them for doing that. bear in mind that these are the only options on the table. indeed, these are the only choices they ever had.

      result………we will have a no deal pm within days

    183. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Well let’s wait and see eh. No matter who leads the Tory party if May falls they will still have to give a vote to parliament.

      Only two possible results they either accept the deal or they reject it. If the “deal” is rejected then the government falls, new leader or not. After that, your guess is as good as mine.

    184. Thepnr says:

      If the new leader of the Tory party pulls out of talks with the EU and says “no deal” then parliament still have to vote on it.

      Result chaos and a General election is certain.

    185. manandboy says:

      We are all in the same boat, subject to the wind, the tides and the currents, but disconcertingly, we have little information about any of these crucial forces and where they are taking us. As for the captain, she hasn’t a clue and is without a compass. Brexit is truly a voyage into the unknown. It seems like we will only know where exactly we are going when we get there.

      This does however look like the last voyage of Rule Brittania – before she is scrapped.

      Hail Caesar!.

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. racism in contemporary Britain. As I have suggested, Britain’s civil and cultural institutions are blighted with structural racism. These discriminatory attitudes have historical roots and are not solely directed towards non-whites. This undermine the potential for effective democracy (see Brexit).

      Multiculturalism in contemporary Britain: policy, law and theory

      Abstract

      We start by surveying the different issues that fall under the umbrella of ‘multiculturalism’. We then sketch the trajectory of British multiculturalism since 1945, and examine its broader legal and philosophical contexts. This narrative highlights the empirical and theoretical connections between multiculturalism and decolonisation, and that the conceptualisation of multiculturalism in political theory is more wide-ranging than in law or policy. This helps foreground neglected aspects of British multiculturalism in policy and law, and suggests we should widen the philosophical scope of multiculturalism even further. We then summarise the papers and draw out the connections between them. We argue that a deeper understanding of contemporary British multiculturalism inexorably leads us back to fundamental philosophical and practical questions regarding the structure and purpose of the British polity, and conclude that this indicates the need for greater polycentricity in governance.

      Keywords: Multiculturalism, national identity, Britain, decolonisation, liberal democracy, polycentricity, pluralism

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13698230.2017.1398443

      Shining a spotlight on structural racism in Britain today
      https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/shining-spotlight-structural-racism-britain-today

      Discrimination and Racism in the UK
      https://www.internations.org/great-britain-expats/guide/29460-safety-security/discrimination-and-racism-in-the-uk-16163

    187. yesindyref2 says:

      Apparently, Steve Bannon wanted to become a Lord and be annointed head of the Conservative Party but was rounded on and laughed at because of his left-wing views.

    188. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      You know something, I often think I’d rather hear your opinion on many things rather than academics I’ve never heard of.

      I remember when you weren’t shy in giving your opinion on here and to be honest that’s who I’d rather hear from.

    189. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. racism in austerity Brexitanian. Steve Bannon will be preaching to a large and appreciative audience. Fortunately, unlike England, Scotland has largely rejected cultural nationalism and doesn’t appear to have such a problem with institutional Islamophobia.

      The media, especially the BBC, is largely responsibility in mobilising English working-class xenophobia.

      The politics of nationalism and white racism in the UK

      Abstract

      This paper considers the contemporary significance of white racism and its association with nationalist sentiment amongst a cohort late middle aged white Britons, using survey responses and qualitative interviews from the 1958 National Child Development Study. We have shown that although overt racism is very limited, a substantial minority of white Britons display ambivalent feelings which have the potential to be mobilised in racist directions. We argue against the view that disadvantaged white working class respondents are especially xenophobic, and show that racist views are not strongly associated with social position.

      In exploring the clustering of different nationalist and racist sentiments amongst economic and cultural elites, and comparing these with ‘disenfranchised’ respondents with little economic and cultural capital, we show that it is actually the elite who are most likely to articulate ‘imperial racism’. By contrast, the ‘disenfranchised’ articulate a kind of anti?establishment nationalism which is not strongly racist. We also show that the elite are strongly internally divided, with a substantial number of the cultural elite being strongly anti?racist and committed to multi?culturalism, so generating strong internal factionalism between elite positions. Our paper therefore underscores how intensifying inequalities have facilitated the volatility and variability of nationalist and racist sentiment.

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.12311

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thepnr
      Cheers. It’s probably because I’m not limited by the fear of loosing academic tenure. I was also trained before academia was swallowed up by neo-liberal ideology and practice.

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. Also, I’m not an academic, I just know a bit about stuff. 😉

    192. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      “Also, I’m not an academic, I just know a bit about stuff.”

      I know that so let’s hear your opinions, especially now as we’re getting into the end game. You have views, I want to hear them.

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thepnr
      My opinion is that Scotland is the victim of historically rooted structural racism (see Brexit). If the popular sovereignty of the Scottish people is not protected from British nationalism/English fascism, there is no future for the Scottish identity. The viability of Scottish culture will wither and die, and Scotland’s economy along with it.

    194. dakk says:

      ‘The viability of Scottish culture will wither and die, and Scotland’s economy along with it.’

      Very true Cameron.

      And they will harvest all our resources indefinitely if we allow them.

      Let’s not.

    195. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      “The viability of Scottish culture will wither and die”

      Only if we submit now and admit defeat and that ain’t going to happen, that’s what we are fighting for now, and it won’t stop. Despite what the naysayers go on about the fight for Independence continues much to the disgust of the British Nationalists.

      Stick in there Cameron, as we all will. Our audience is the undecided and how best we persuade them. Individuals arguments will win the day, we all have a voice and should use it.

    196. CameronB Brodie says:

      Yes, lets not allow that to happen.

    197. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 20 October, 2018 at 8:56 pm:

      ” … How does this statement that the “royal person’s sovereignty has no place in the Scottish Rule of Law and monarchs fit with the Sovereignty Act of 1584 passed by the Scots Parliament? See link below
      https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1584/2/paragraph/p1

      In exactly the same way as the Treaty of Union was an illegal treaty. The Declaration of Arbroath was accepted as an International Declaration by the then international authority of the time and they accepted it had been part of Scots law.

      It declared that Scotland was an independent kingdom and a declaration of the people’s sovereignty.

      Yet the Paircel o Rogues signed away Scotland’s independence while the populace were rioting in the streets against the sovereign people’s wishes. What’s more they would have been lynched if the people had caught up with them. Which was why the old Scottish Parliament was only prorogued as it never sat and went into permanent recess as in England.

      In other words in spite of the international authority recognising the people as sovereign, (and remember this was fully agreed by King Robert Bruce in the declaration). The then those elite unelected parliamentarians did not implement the franchise and have the people’s representatives running parliament. They carried on as before

      So was the act you quote representative of the wishes of the legally sovereign people or the self appointed aristocracy and land owners?

      Quite obviously it was not. Which brings us right back to the present day and Westminster acting as if the people of Scotland are not legally sovereign. They were from 1320 but never got the chance to elect representatives as their delegates.

      Which is exactly what the Scottish Claim of Right is all about and that is now getting quietly reviewed by the ECJ but appealed in the probably illegal Westminster Supreme Court.

      Is it any wonder the UK parliament is trying to ignore it and their tame propaganda wing are so quiet on the matter?

      ” … As to the Divine Right of Kings it was not solely an English idea/philosophy. James VI and I wrote several textbooks on the subject long before he succeeded Elizabeth Tudor in 1603.”

      And James died without ever creating a United Kingdom parliament. Which was why Westminster engineered the Treaty of Union in 1706/7. Why would they need to force a Treaty of Union in 1706/7 if they had one in 1603?

      Furthermore, much of his records claimed a united Kingdom, but it was a personal United Kingdom for him only. By the way that personal Royal United Kingdom still exists and it includes the three Royal protectorates but note that when Westminster signed up to the EU it did not take the three protectorates in with it. They remain today associate members only. The Royal person will remain Queen of England and Queen of Scots as long as the sovereign people of Scotland wish her to remain so. She would have still been Queen Of all Ireland but for the south declaring itself a republic.

      The whole point of the Scottish Claim of right is that it dates back before the formation of the United Kingdom and has been reaffirmed, (and ignored), several times.

      It is now getting referred to higher courts over Westminster’s head and the evidence is all stacked in Scotland’s favour – with one great big omission – a current majority of the sovereign people of Scotland reclaiming their sovereign right.

      Now just in case you still harbour doubts, consider this.

      The human rights of any identifiable people to self determination is enshrined in international human rights laws and includes every one of the EU member states including the UK it is part of the United Nations Charter and Westminster is signed up to that concept.

      Now I ask you what more identifiable individual group of people can you get that is one of Europe’s oldest identifiable Kingdoms, countries and cultures than Scotland?

      We were Rome’s Final Frontier, we were an independent country and Kingdom and have international recognition of both in writing and we are legally the only sovereign partner kingdom with England on the Treaty of Union. Our law says the people are legally sovereign under our laws.

      All we need now is for a majority of those sovereign people to say, We want our sovereignty back and international law is on our side to recognise us as such. Even Westminster has signed up to those human rights.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 21:39,

      No probs, Cam, we’re all trying to head for the same place, we just sometimes differ in how best to get there.

      I have been acutely aware that my recent opinion might not be the most palatable to your ears, even though I’ve tried to put it politely. No harm intended, though. We’re just going to have to differ on this one, it seems.

      I can only gently urge you once again to keep it brief* in the main thread, which I know you can do very well, and let rip to your heart’s content over on OT.

      *(While also being aware that not all of my own postings here are commendably short. =laugh=)

    199. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      No problem Robert, though perhaps you could have a dig at some others who are far more prolific posters than myself. Otherwise, I might get a bit more paranoid. 😉

    200. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 21:50:

      The one who is constantly running away is Theresa May.

      True. Undeniable.

      It’s weirdly fascinating in a way. That “Black Knight” scene from the Monty Python “Holy Grail” film springs to mind. “It’s just a flesh wound!”

      But also deeply humiliating both for May personally, for her party (and by proxy, Labour as well) and by extension the whole UK, caught in this self-made trap.

      You really have to wonder if the Tories do realise in their heart of hearts that they are playing ridiculous buffoons on the world stage.

      And also wonder at what point people in Scotland will finally feel the sting of the humiliation and quietly decide enough’s enough.

      What we need most of all right now, I feel, is a satire offensive. Bring them down with pitiless mockery. It might only take a wee push…

    201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 01:14,

      Maybe I just care more. =grin=

    202. Thepnr says:

      Robert “pitiless mockery” works for me at least for those deserving of it and that is our Government. I can’t believe that they are even in that position of being “our” government.

      Well NO I never voted for them and neither did Scotland. I rejecy wholeheartedly “our” government. Our job now is to persuade the majority in Scotland to do so too.

      We will, not long now. Keep the faith.

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 20 October, 2018 at 10:08 pm:

      ” … Does it really matter if 20 million people marched in London because if I understand Mr Peffers and correct me if I’m wrong sir the people of England are not sovereign because the Monarchy signed that right away to the English parliament to have that power, and again if I’m correct the only people who actually are sovereign are Scots.”

      This is going to sound daft, Dr Jim, but you are both right and wrong at the same time.

      Under the Rule of Law of the Kingdom of England, which is legally, “A constitutional Monarchy”, since The Glorious Revolution of 1688 the Monarch of England is legally Sovereign. Which is why the call Westminster Her Majesty’s Government and all that parliaments departments are Her Majesty’s this or that. Unless of course they are titled The Royal Navy, Air Force or whatever. It is also why every elected to office person must swear an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty – except Scots are not required to swear an oath but can aver their allegiance.

      However, probably by oversite but certainly came in handy, when the Scots made the Declaration of Arbroath to the then international authority they claimed it had always been part of Scots law. The International authority accepted the declaration and it was enshrined in Scots law that the people were legally sovereign.

      So why do I say you are also wrong?

      Well nowadays the concept of human rights has adopted a far more enlightened idea of what sovereignty actually always has been.

      The original concept was that a person became sovereign by force. The biggest bully in the settlement assumed leadership by force and the concept of Kings was born. It went along with the concept of Gods and the two were united so that kings claimed to be God’s representative on Earth.

      In simple terms sovereignty belongs to those who can take it. and that is where the more modern ideas come from. There are more of the people than there are of whatever has taken sovereignty upon itself. Be it King, Emperor, President, Shah, religious leader, Red Army or whatever.

      So no one can really hold sovereignty if the people do not allow them to do so. As demonstrated by such as the French Revolution, The Russian Revolution, The American War of Independence or nearer home The Republic of Ireland.

      So it has become the standard of Human Rights legislation that any readily identifiable and distinct people have the right to self determination to decide who or what rules over them.

      It is part of the EU legislation and Westminster has signed up to that. It is thus part of every EU member state’s laws and also every United Nations Member state and, (I may be wrong here), part of the Commonwealth rules too.

      If nothing else it is common sense that if any ruler or government cannot command the confidence of the people that government, ruler or armed force cannot enforce law and order.

      So the basic law of nature is that ultimately the people are always sovereign but may need to, by ballot or battle, take back their sovereignty.

      So if we were Independent our government would pay attention to us if we marched in such numbers but again not so in the land of the Engles
      Make me right on this Robert coz the idea just really appeals to me.

      Sorry I cannot give a yes/no answer but as far as Scots go we most certainly are legally sovereign under Scots law but also under the basic laws of nature. Sovereigns must take sovereignty for no one else will give it to them – but may indeed support them if they dare to.

      Just to prove that concept. Robert Bruce was the Monarch of Scots but to get himself out of the condemnation of the then international authority Bruce allowed the Declaration Of Arbroath to be sent to The Pope.

      This got Bruce out of being excommunicated and, as a sovereign monarch, all of Scots and Scotland with him.

      Put it this way – you couldn’t trade in Christendom if you were excommunicated and we didn’t know about the New World back then, so no fall back WTO. In truth they thought if they sailed too far they would fall off the edge of a flat World into space.

      I’m kidding but you get the idea.

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      It’s too late for me to scroll around this thread but somewhere on this topic someone cited a reference to an article that explained things very simple – I believe it may have been in the National.

      It boiled down to this:- Westminster have backed themselves into a corner for the two concepts – Brexit and Scottish Independence are opposites and as far as Westminster goes, in practice, they can have one or the other but not both together.

      That is the Irish Question has no answer they can agree amongst themselves and the backstop will ultimately lead to unrest in Scotland to get the same free trading deal as N.I..

      So even if the EU does cave in on the Irish Border question there will be that wee extra push from Scots and independence will follow. Either that or a system that will upset everyone and end up with independence with even Wales creeping over the indy majority line.

      Quite simple, no matter which way Westminster jumps now they cannot have what they want – they have to stop kicking cans down roads sometime.

    205. louis.b.argyll says:

      Ho Robert, last post there, very good, hence Salmond and others predicting that independence would ‘unleash Scotland upon the world’.

      The ‘world’ being a bunch of subservient communities, held back politically for centuries now, from their sovereign rights, tricked into thinking democracy exists.

    206. twathater says:

      Thepnr says:
      20 October, 2018 at 11:14 pm

      If the new leader of the Tory party pulls out of talks with the EU and says “no deal” then parliament still have to vote on it.

      As has been published via I think one of Nana’s links the parliament ONLY get a vote on a deal , they do not get a vote on a no deal that is the tories strategy . If treeza is ousted the tories will NOT call a GE they will run with a new leader , they would have to be FORCED into a GE

      IMO this constant too-ing and fro-ing and time wasting is a deliberate ploy to either FORCE Nicola into calling indy2 ASAP or fudging and delaying up to brexshit March 2019 so that she runs out of time
      As has been asked MANY MANY times what is the tories priority the union or the EU , my opinion is the union , lets face it the resources of Scotland are paramount .

      They can and will operate under WTO with Scotland’s resources but if they lose Scotland their exports are minimal , and without Scotland’s resources they can’t pay for their imports

      The EU are extremely dependent on UK trade inbound and outbound , they understandably don’t want to lose that trade market but surely they have to realise that the tories are literally now taking the p**s , their acceptance of treezas obfuscation and antics is literally sickening and cringeworthy , they should set a cut off date and stick to it

    207. Iain mhor says:

      Ok, I’ll give @ottomanboi the benefit.
      I travel a bit and sometimes it takes a day or so to catch up.

      Violence is attractive, alluring, kinda sexy.
      Look across the water there.
      Ireland fought a bloody Independence.
      No-one gives a shit about about the dead now. No really, ye can bubble but the deed is done and result…thumbs up.
      Eire is Independent. Teach the weans how. They frankly won’t really give a fuck in a generation or two
      You know, like Commando comics and WW2 movies

      You can ram nail bombs up people and put collection jars in pubs. You can fund it and bubble when someone else nail bombs you, That’s independence supporting independence.
      You can threaten bloody violence and extort billions as a minority and well just fuck me…you get it! That’s not Independence that’s just extortion.
      All that absolutely, gets results.

      The world as we know it, the national boundaries was see them today, were forged in violence. Still being forged that way in the.middle east (they mad arabs and jews in the dance of death until the worlds end eh?) Mind you the Ukraine has a somewhat malleable border right now and the USSR is no more, infamously not a religious war (?)

      So – does Scotland renew (renew) its independence with violence (lets face it, it really does work) or by osmosis and assimilation of ideals alone? I don’t know, I speak for no-one and I’m sure there will be many who would advocate violence as much as peace as a means to an end.
      I just prefer that advocates and agitators of violence have the courage of their convictions to state it. It has an argument : Look at me I am Independence….come follow. It’s painless in the end, after time and history dulls the violent memory.

      Ottomanboi, do tell your preference then we can debate in the open. Personally, my rational half says violence works. My ideological half says “I’ve lived under it all my wee life, same as yours – the same tiny wee life – the same yin wi the same wee glimmer sae easy douted at the end of the gun or the chib.

    208. Kangaroo says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2:22am

      Somewhere on this thread is a reference….

      Here it is again apologies to those of you whom have already read it.

      Posted this again as there was a Troll on the last thread trying to get this post Lost in the mix.

      For those of you have not read it yet and there are obviously a fair few on Wings, this is a MUST read.

      You don’t have to guess anymore. It’s straightforward.

      In their rush to escape the EU Tax changes they missed the details.

      It’s Brexit OR the Union they cannot have both. They are caught in a legal snare.

      This is why there is such a delay In getting a Withdrawal Agreement organised and why there is a NEW Act of Union going Through the House of Lords. They are going to try and get us to rescind our Sovereignty or at least delegate it to Westminster.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16989865.this-is-why-westminsters-choice-is-between-brexit-and-the-union/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor

      Check out the comments.

      **************

      Dr Jim

      Your previous post Re Scots Sovereignty is correct as Mr P has been pointing out for several years now. Bless his cotton socks. There is a small part missing in the PUZZLE, and it is this. In 1688 when King Billy and Queen Mary became Monarchs of the Kingdom of England they delegated their Sovereignty to the Parliament of England. This Parliament then dissolved itself in 1707, and this means that Sovereignty automatically reverted to the Monarch. So IMHO Westminster is NOT legally Sovereign and never has been.
      The Scottish Continuity Bill Court case was interesting, and I watched it all. They asserted at one point that Westminster was Sovereign and the Scottish Parliament was not. Robert Peffers attests that this is being challenged at the ECJ.

    209. Iain mhor says:

      Just catching up on a rake o’ posts
      @Ken500 – really friend, please have a wee walk in the fresh autumn air, this isn’t like you. I’m a bit worried.
      I know it’s can all seem really shitty and Aberdeen has been serously fucked over (never mind the fitba) but like me with the better half’s relentless omnibus soaps… Get oot the hoose or doon the man-cave, or mental damage ensues!

    210. Kangaroo says:

      Brexit the Catch 22

      For those of you who want it really simple.

      1. The UK wants to exit the Customs Union and this requires a Border

      2. The Good Friday Agreement requires NO Border on the Island of Ireland.

      3.The Treaty of Union requires No Border inside the United Kingdom.

      It is impossible to meet all three conditions, so something has to give.

      What is Cheapest for the TORIES? : Northern Ireland.
      So bye bye Good Friday Agreement.

      Once the budget is passed. Expect fireworks. Mmm bad choice of words.

    211. Ken500 says:

      Did go out in the bike. Lovely day and celebration,

      I have never, ever, ever posted fake news. It has always been researched and look up. Unlike Rock who has repeatedly posted repetitive fake posts.

      As for will be taking a step back. Never thought it would see the day of a hug a unionists feast by plastic Indepedistas. Short sighted. Fete compi. Any spelling twists are of poorer eye sighted. On you go.

      Kettle black. Some folk just can’t see it. The hypocrisy. Can’t see the wings for the trees. Thick.

    212. Cactus says:

      Hey Sunday.

      Another big WOS milestone a coming up…

      Less than 500 comments to go till:

      800,000 Winger comments! 🙂

    213. Colin Alexander says:

      The indy battle is already being lost while the SNP sleep or worry about keeping the UK in the EU.

      The Labour Party’s auxiliaries are already going into battle to poison minds and hearts.

      I’m talking the ( we love the) UK trade unions. Defenders of the UK Union in 2014.

      Expect strike after strike in Scotland. And it’s ALL the fault of the SNP they will tell us. It’s gonnae be SNP bad, so indy is bad, all the way.

      Cordia care workers in Glasgow, led by the GMB union, will leave the most vulnerable people in society to lie in their own pish and shite, unfed and unwatered while they strike.

      I support equality. The Cordia workers should have had equal pay and get the back pay they are owed. It was a disgrace that Labour run Glasgow City Council and the unions allowed this to happen for years.

      But, it’s strange how they never went on all out strikes when Labour were in charge. I wonder why that is??? But now it’s an SNP / Greens led Council.

      Not that I am defending the SNP or Greens here. This is Labour’s mess they should have sorted.

      “GMB Scotland Organiser Rhea Wolfson”

      “Rhea Wolfson has been selected again as Scottish Labour’s candidate for Livingston – with unanimous support from the local labour party.”

      GMB Scotland Organiser Hazel Nolan

      https://labourlist.org/author/hazel-nolan/

      Support the Cordia workers in their fight for equal pay. But don’t forget they are again being used as Labour’s and the unions cannon fodder to save the UK Union.

    214. ScottieDog says:

      @kangaroo
      Thanks for the link. GMK puts it in very simple terms. The irony is that NS’s proposal to keep the U.K. in SM and CU would preserve the Union.!
      Wouldn’t hear the BBC talk about that would we!

    215. Cactus says:

      Have you tried the close-up!:
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/img496.jpg

      It’s scary, isn’t it?

      Spooky Season.

    216. Cactus says:

      Westminster is trying to remove the twelve EU stars status from the Citizens of Scotland.

      Imagine they tried to take the STARS from the American flag.

      Imagine they tried to take the STARS from the Australian flag.

      Imagine they tried to take the STARS from the New Zealand flag.

      How do you think the citizens of their countries would feel.

      Imagine.

    217. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking- 1 hour ago:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oInjyopIUcg

    218. bjsalba says:

      O/T Can anybody work out the ratio of participants to inhabitants in the London demonstration with the Edinburgh AUOB March?

    219. Robert Peffers says:

      @bjsalba says: 21 October, 2018 at 8:20 am:

      ” … O/T Can anybody work out the ratio of participants to inhabitants in the London demonstration with the Edinburgh AUOB March?”

      Someone already has, bjalba. It is upthread /|\ there somewhere.

    220. SoupCruncher says:

      Where’s Trump? What happened to that “Special relationship”? In the world of Westminster big fish eat smaller fish.

    221. Essexexile says:

      At risk of labouring the point, re Salmond’s crowdfunder, I obviously don’t have any issue with the legality of it or the man’s lifelong devotion to the cause. It was also a fantastic way of showing support.
      I just dont think it was the most astute political move. He and his team now need to be incredibly careful or there’ll doubtless be some gleeful hack ready to pounce when he has a working lunch with his legal advisor. Just imagine what they’d make out of that.
      The rest of it, that’s just my opinion of Salmond based on past observation and it’s the future that matters, so I’ll not bring it up again.
      Anyway, a new day. A fresh start.
      @Ken 500, nae bother pal.

    222. orri says:

      Interestingly enough it might be because there were no great slaughters after around 1916 or it might simply be that the effect sought had achieved its aim or wasn’t achieved. In each case the commemoration of the Great War went on the back burner after the Brexit vote.

      We will not be reminded of them. Although we might be reminded of one of the reasons women got the vote and the rights threatened with erosion. It’s the wrong war for the kind of in it together spirit they want. Especially if you’re an aspiring fascist and don’t want to top the wink that starving citizenry might be part of the game plan.

      WWII is the right war, if there’s any. Have RISE to the welfare state and NHS and EEC and eventually EU. And defeated facism. Might have some celebrations of that next year. Might not though as who wants reminding that Nazis are evil.

    223. galamcennalath says:

      On the ITV site Robert Peston regurgitates the inverted Tory view of where we stand.

      “She offered a transition extension as a practical measure so that the EU’s version of the Northern Irish backstop would never have to be implemented.”

      Firstly, I don’t think May OFFERED a transition extension. It not beneficial to the EU. It would be there to make things easier for the UK.

      Secondly, ‘EU’s version of the backstop’. No, it is the signed off, mutually agreed last December, backstop. The Tories are trying renege on their agreement, the EU are insisting they can’t. That’s not the same as saying the backstop is the EU’s VERSION. There is only one backstop in play.

      We know the Tories’ approach, but why did Peston repeat their language and twisted view?

      Not good journalism.

      http://archive.li/3BkKw

    224. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking news:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CblimRkuLA0

      This is the claim several wingers have questioned that I’ve been commenting about for some time now that involves Scottish sovereignty. It is indeed being dealt with by the ECJ.

    225. Billy Connolly said in Times,

      “Scots voted to stay in Europe,

      and if the only way for us to do that

      is to become Independent from England

      that may just be the way to go.

      And I never thought I would say that.”

      if such a passionate British Nationalist and Unionist like ex comedian Billy Connolly can pass from the dark into the light then the massive dam of soft No`s must be about to break into an ocean of pro Independence.

    226. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 21 October, 2018 at 9:15 am:

      ” … Billy Connolly said in Times,
      “Scots voted to stay in Europe,
      and if the only way for us to do that
      is to become Independent from England
      that may just be the way to go.
      And I never thought I would say that.”

      Aye! Big yin, and you are not alone. Roughly 5.5 million of the people of Scotland never thought they’d hear you say it either.

    227. Robert Peffers says:

      Oh! And by the way, Big Yin, we will not be becoming independent of England – we will be ending the bipartite United Kingdom.

    228. galamcennalath says:

      Scot Finlayson says:

      if such a passionate British Nationalist and Unionist like ex comedian Billy Connolly can ….

      Indeed. If he can jump, anyone on the NO side can. The dam may be about to burst.

      Interestly, never to miss a pro Union trick, the Times headline is …

      “Billy Connolly’s big Brexit Scotland U-turn”

      … hiding the reality that his BIG u-turn is on independence.

    229. Ken500 says:

      Alex Salmond will be sorely, sorely missed until he comes back again. Especially in the NE. He gets things done. It is a sense of bewilderment and sadness. One of the greats. The legacy will go down in history. Especially on Independence. Everything that Scotland has become. More openness, prosperity and fairness is because of people like him and the contribution he has given. That should be respected and appreciated for the sake of justice.

      A world Statesman. He is know all over the world making Scotland’s case. Recognised everywhere. Putting Scotland on the world map. Leaders on re-dial. He is a total hero and is fit for the Westminster screwers. They will not do him over. Or they will regret it. On the rebound,

      The way the Westminster unionists are carrying on is an absolute disgrace. Sickening. They are making people sick and unable to sleep. People on anti depressants etc affecting people’s health. Sanctioning and starving people. There was just no need for it. Totally unjustifiable.

      The ConDem/Tories elected to protect NHS/Education and welfare benefits. They slashed the essential services budgets. There was absolutely no need for that. They should have been putting them up. Just as it was promised in their manifesto promises and commitment. Totally reneged upon. They fooled people. In a cynical attempt to gain power to feather their nest with privilege and public money. While running down public services,

      The tax take/revenues has gone up. There was absolutely no need of justification for the cuts.

      2015/16 – Total taxes raised in UK £533Billion – + other revenues.
      2016/17 Total taxes raised in the UK £628Billion + £92Billion other revenues. Is that included? in the total. £7.5Billion? should acrue to Scotland. @ UK and Scottish Gov accounts.

      Scitland always raises more pro rata.

      2015/16 £54Billion + the rest. 2016/17 £60Billion + the rest.

      More than enough. Especially with the increased revenue Independence would bring in. With better policies to support the Scottish economy. Less on the military, no more illegal wars. A Central bank. Better banking system. A better welfare system. Poverty could be eradicated. A progressive tax system. No tax evasion. Borrowing and spending sensibly to fund growth in Scotland. Not elsewhere on wasteful projects with no business case.

      Scotland has stagnated under Westminster S/E centralist government economic policies, for years. The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings in many total benefits. The Scottish Gov since 2000 with Devolution, The only time the population has increased since 1928 and before. Without slight fluctuation. D’Hond’t imposed to benefit unionism.

      Scotland population increased slightly from 1928 till 1951. 5Million. From 1951 till 2000 it stagnated. Decreased in the 1980’s Thatcher. People had to leave to find a job. Only increased since 2000. 0.2Million. Since 1928 (and before). 1914-18 world war. Influenza. Spanish flu. Great Strike 1926. Universal Suffrage 1928. 1932 world Depression. Wall Street crash1932

      1WW, poverty and suffering. The British/European monarchy the ‘Divine right to rule’. Their Inter rivialries caused the 1WW. Universal Suffrage 1928 restricted the power of the monarchy. The people’s vote.

      England is the 2nd most densely populated country in Europe because of Westminster unionist policies. Revenues were taken from Scotland secretly and illegally to build up London S/E and on any other nonsense. Without permission of the wealth creators. ie The people and resources in Scotland. London S/E ended up,with more people (8million) than the population of Scotland. (5Million) and much more congested affecting the economy. A large number of people on a smaller mass of land.

      England is the 2nd most densely populated country in Europe. Not because of any EU policy but because of UK economic, foreign and social policies. Illegal wars causing the worth migration in Europe since the WW2. Meaning more migrants come into Europe. Some, a tiny minority come into the UK. It fluctuates,

      The Westminster unionists refuse to deal with or solve these problems. A low wage economy because of mismanagement of Westminster. Spending more on illegal wars and banking crashes etc. Withdrawing support for vulnerable people quite unnecessary. Tax breaks for the wealthy disappearing into tax havens. Created by Thatcher.

      It has nothing to do with the EU or their policies. The EU are fairer and free with good social policies. The nearest biggest markrt. Shared Defence keeps down Defence costs. They have to solve the burden of the UK illegal wars and the costs. £Billions. A problem they did not cause or initiate. Millions marched against worldwide It was Blair’s illegal actions. Against International Law. Unbalancing, unsettling world economic development. Creating instability. Lying to gain power. The total inability of the Westminster unionist to solve the problems they have created. That has absolutely nothing to do with the EU but the Westminster policies.

      Scotland requires different solutions to economic matters from those advocated by Westminster unionists. Who do not care anyway. Westminster policies have created a grab of Scottish resources to aid London S/E. creating an imbalance in the UK economy and demographic, geological development. Scotland and the rest of the UK need different solutions to aid successful outcomes.

      Now because of Westminster unionist intransigence the only solution is Independence in Scotland. The Westminster unionist have had nearly 100 years to sort the deficiency of Democracy and inequality. They have refused. Time has run out. There cannot be any more delay. Time’s up.

      It could descend into violence. Just like Thatcher did, It they are not gone soon. People forget or do not know how violent the 1980’s became. It developed into civil conflicts with the people against the government, Almost a civil war. Violence on the streets. Running battles. The violence of the NI conflict, extended by the Tory Gov costing £Billions.

      Labour were the same. The violent illegal wars and banking crash. Thatcher inspired austerity. Labour borrowing and spending more. Creating debts.

    230. Ken500 says:

      Ok truce Essex not Scottish exile. Did go over the top. Just some people do not appreciate what Alex Salmond has done and continues to do for Scotland. Ignorance is not an excuse. Read up about it. Any legal action is subordinated to it. He has been forced into a position to take action because of the regurgitated claims, which were possibly resolved or cleared in 2013. The reason why they were regurgitated at this precise moment in time when Independence support is growing over the line.

      No one knows what they are. It is being kept secret. It could be some slight indiscretion. Anyone who has seen or been around Alex Salmond knows this is quite totally out of character of the way he conducts himself. There has never been any whiff of scandal in over nearly 40 years. These relevations were brought upon him. That is why he has to fight for justice. It would be inappropriate not to and he will win. That will damage the unionists not him.

    231. ScottieDog says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Thanks for the YouTube link. The comments underneath it were priceless.

    232. Valerie says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      I’m not following you at 9.11, so forgive me if I’m dense.

      My understanding of the ECJ case (27 Nov) has been referred to them to settle question of UK alone (without 27 bloc agreement) can withdraw A50.

      I’ve followed Alyn Smith on this, and that’s my understanding, because he said the withdrawal of A50, and who has to agree it was unclear.

      I’ve commented upthread, that UK govt are launching an appeal to Supreme court to try and cut off the Hearing, on basis of it being not relevant.

    233. mike cassidy says:

      “independent from England”

      There’s the mindset of the Scottish cringe in three words.

      Still, glad to see he’s stopped being a wee pretendy Scot.

      And become a real one.

      What kept ye, Big Man?

    234. orri says:

      From what I’ve seen of the Alex Salmond case the procedure is not the problem. It’s the way it’s been “abused”. If, as he says, he doesn’t know the details of the allegations despite things reaching a stage where he should be told them he’s every right to complain.

      It’s almost as though some kind of Michelle Thomas situation was being rigged where the accusations were being leaked but no move to having them resolved and, hopefully, dismissed was being made.

      For bonus points the line between the civil service and permanent staff in the Scottish Government and the Administration currently in office at Holyrood is being deliberately blurred in order that a conflict between Salmond and the SNP be inferred and perhaps manufactured.

      One point that might be relevant i s his rights under Data Protection. Any information held about the accusations against him can be challenged by him. FOI exemptions don’t really apply.

    235. ahundredthidiot says:

      I once remarked to friends, several months after 2014 indyref1 and to their shock, that Scotland may well have made the right decision to vote No. Given the attacks we are seeing now on Brexiteers (regardless of how you voted in EUREF) I think it would be reasonable to suggest that little old Scotland could’ve been overturned had we voted Yes. Imagine the trouble that would’ve cost.

      Stepping aside for a second, imagine France or Germany had voted to leave the EU and the UK were still firmly in it – how much sympathy would we have for their exit deal? I imagine very little, in fact, we wouldn’t want them competing with us economically right on our doorstep – we would punish them.

      People in England – The English – care not a jot about Scotland or NI – cross party politicians do, but their (collective)people do not. They would sooner go it alone than have to ‘drag us around at their cost’ (I know, I know, but that’s how they think).

      If I were a member of the English Elite concerned about my countries status across the World – I would take control of the situation and seek to boot Scotland and NI out NOW!

      The UK cannot agree, so it should break up.

    236. Bob Mack says:

      Did I just hear Nicola Sturgeon spoke to the rally in London via video link yesterday? Strange it never made the news eh?

    237. ronnie anderson says:

      https://www.facebook.com/ReportingtheReferendum/posts/1735897866533066

      Sumbudy should tell him the days of the Empire are dead .

    238. Ken500 says:

      These Tory boys and gals just do not have a clue. Not aclue. It is just absolutely appalling. Naive beyond belief. Googlygook nonsense. They haven’t got a clue what they are speaking about.

    239. Fred says:

      Billy Connolly, who cares?

    240. Tinto Chiel says:

      “If the only way for us to do that is to become independent from England that may just be the way to go” hardly sounds to me like a ringing endorsement of independence from Connolly. More like, if all else fails, read the instructions.

      *Sighs*

    241. TheItalianJob says:

      @Scot Finlayson at 9.15am

      Wow That’s a reversal if anything. Didn’t expect that from the “Big Yin”.

      Quote from the Times online 21/10/18.

      Brexit has made Billy Connolly reassess his opposition to Scottish independence
      NEIL RASMUS
      He once compared the Scottish National Party to the Nazis and ridiculed Holyrood as a “wee pretendy parliament” but Sir Billy Connolly has revealed that he now believes Scottish independence “may just be the way to go”.

      The comedian, 75, discloses his position in his new book Made in Scotland in which he says the UK’s decision to vote for Brexit, against Scotland’s wishes, has made him reassess.

      He writes: “One thing I’ve never had any interest in is hating England and the English. I like Thomas Hardy as much as I like Robert Burns. As an Anglophile I’ve never shouted for Scottish independence — but I might be changing my mind now.”

      Connolly, who has spoken before of his hatred of nationalism, adds: “The…

      Need to subscribe to the Times online to get the full article which no way am I going to.

      As Robert Peffers says there’s many more Scots that think the same.

    242. Ken500 says:

      The Millionaire fisherman’s friend is on with Brewer the multimillionaires fishermen’s who ruined they own industry. Throwing dead fish back for years and not using bigger nets,. Like Norway. Poor Terms and condition etc. Meant people did not want to go to sea. So they use imported slave labour. Without Scottish representation for years. Over forty years and more.

      The Tories committing political suicide. They could not make a bigger mess. A complete and utter shambles. Westminster unionist cop out.

    243. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here’s the full Telegraph article from behind the paywall.
      ———————————————————-

      Jason Allardyce

      October 21 2018, 12:01am, The Sunday Times
      Brexit has made Billy Connolly reassess his opposition to Scottish independence

      He once compared the Scottish National Party to the Nazis and ridiculed Holyrood as a “wee pretendy parliament” but Sir Billy Connolly has revealed that he now believes Scottish independence “may just be the way to go”.

      The comedian, 75, discloses his position in his new book Made in Scotland in which he says the UK’s decision to vote for Brexit, against Scotland’s wishes, has made him reassess.

      He writes: “One thing I’ve never had any interest in is hating England and the English. I like Thomas Hardy as much as I like Robert Burns. As an Anglophile I’ve never shouted for Scottish independence — but I might be changing my mind now.”

      Connolly, who has spoken before of his hatred of nationalism, adds: “The Brexit vote is a disaster and the breaking up of the togetherness of Europe is a crime bordering on a sin. I think the more people are together, not separate, the happier they will be.

      “The most important thing for Scotland is to keep our contact with Europe. Scots voted to stay in Europe and if the only way for us to do that is to become independent from England that may just be the way to go. And I never thought I would say that.”

      Yesterday Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland, sent a surprise video message of support to those on the People’s Vote march promising that the SNP’s 35 MPs would back them without conditions.

      She said: “If the issue comes before the House of Commons, SNP MPs will support a People’s Vote which includes the option to remain in the EU.”

    244. TheItalianJob says:

      At Ken500

      Like most of what you post and you always remind us of how much monies from Scotland is being spent in the rest of the U.K. to Scotland’s loss.

      Also agree on what you say about Alex Salmond great politician and Statesman for Scotland and a thorn in the Westminster Establishments side.

      Keep on posting and ignore the baiters.

    245. orri says:

      Amazing that after repeating the condition for supporting a People’s Vote several times Sturgeon is being missquoted.

      Support depends on Remain being an option. Hence the ECJ inquiry to see if that’s an option. Hence Westminster trying to ensure it’s not.

      I suspect the minimum will be that if after investigation it’s found that the A50 does not conform to UK constitutional requirements the even if it can’t be unilaterally withdrawn it can be voided.

    246. ronnie anderson says:

      I dont think Connolly will be shouting from the rooftops nor on Bbc he’s changed his mind on Scottish Independence .

    247. call me dave says:

      Jings! Connolly:

      Too late the hero. 🙁

      Better late than never. Take your pick.

    248. Dr Jim says:

      It’s a strange celebrity culture and media that would think sensible people should pay any attention to the political opinion of an uneducated comedian who left Scotland almost half a century ago when his speciality subject was flat caps and pigeons which were still fairly popular, so I won’t be thanking Mr Connolly for his *almost* acceptance of me and my opinion because i’ll be remembering how vitriolic he was about my right of existence in the first place

      If Mr Connolly retracts his opinion of Scots who want Independence as morons and reflects that he may be the one who’s the moron then Mibbees

    249. Hamish100 says:

      Nae harm to the big yin but who cares. The vile thrown at SNP supporters and other independence supporters by him and his socialist/ labour allies over the 70’s and on merely shows that he now wishes to be part of the “winning” team.

      Its natural, we saw that after the snp won its first parliamentary election many individuals joined up, their mindset changed for ever and hoorah to that.

      Maybe we can now rename the following organisations – Scottish Nationalist Opera, The Nationalist Library of Scotland, Nationalist Health Service etcetera- just kiddin.

      Personally I prefer to be called a Scots Patriot – like Mundell!!! Oh heck.

    250. ronnie anderson says:

      Dr Jim Connolly the Humblebum that wont be Ever so Humble ( no reference to any other poster )

    251. Bob Mack says:

      Connolly is a convert. That’s all that matters. I thought that’s what we were after.

    252. Capella says:

      Like other reluctant converts, Billy Connolly “might be changing his mind” now. Or then again, might not. In your own time Billy.

      Another arch Unionist who is battling with cognitive dissonance is Chris Deerin, Scotland contributing editor of the New Statesman. There’s another one who never thought he would be entertaining weird notions:

      I honestly don’t know where all this will leave the Union. But I do not think the display of English arrogance and contempt will be easily overcome, on any side. Now awakened, English nationalism is unlikely to quiet itself any time soon. The decision to leave the EU is an English one, taken against the firmly expressed wishes of Scotland and Northern Ireland. The (relatively popular) Scottish government, and the Scottish viewpoint, has been treated as an irritant throughout the process. Internal Westminster Tory politics is all that has mattered. Corbyn’s Labour has been shamefully complicit throughout.

      Won’t archive
      https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/10/england-s-political-narcissism-could-break-union

    253. galamcennalath says:

      “The extent to which many English people are ignorant about Ireland has become painfully clear”

      Hard hitting opinion piece …

      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    254. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Back in the day, when Billy Connolly was really funny – he kidded-on he was a Partick Thistle fan.

      Then, once he was mainstream, he came out as a Celtic fan, perhaps thinking it was now mainstream to support Celtic, who had become the dominant team in Scotland.

      I see similarities in his belated acceptance of the case for Independence.

    255. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      CORRECTION:

      The Billy Connolly article is actually from the Sunday Times.

    256. ronnie anderson says:

      Bob Mack I welcome anyone who has a change of heart but Connolly with his high profile could do a lot to amend his previous statements & not some story in the sunday times thats relative to his book promotion .

    257. galamcennalath says:

      @Capella

      English Nationalism is getting a hammering on a wide forum now..

      New Stateman and New York Times. The Brexiteers are rapidly building a pariah state. Is that really what most English folks want?

    258. Bob Mack says:

      It’s just my opinion, but I believe it does no harm for former high profile Nos to be publicly recant that decision. It does make others think about why they have changed.

      It does no harm to the indy cause in any event.

    259. ronnie anderson says:

      Speech’s start at 48.19

    260. galamcennalath says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:

      now mainstream to support … belated acceptance of the case for Independence

      Actually, I very much hope you are right!

      If only …. it was suddenly seen as positive, expected, normal, mainstream, winning, conforming, forward thinking, majority, etc etc to support independence.

      And, to be see to have a pro Union stance as negative, odd, outsider, deviant, out of touch, wrecker, loser, minority etc etc.

      If that were to happen, our time will have come, definitely. Most folks want to be with the winners.

    261. Dr Jim says:

      Celbrities opinions are no more or less important than everyone else’s…..But..

      All celebrities have a platform and when the media question them on certain subjects those celebrities must know that the media will employ their answers and opinions to further a media story or agenda by that media, if those same celebrities then cry foul about public backlash on those opinions as being unfair to them then they’re the ones being disingenuous because they gave those opinions knowing full well the general public have no media platform on which to inform the world of theirs

      If celebrities want to be politicians they should stand for office, same goes for the media’s attempts at controlling and manipulating politics

      We all know there are plenty of folk who think or believe that what they see on TV or read in newspapers is true because they can’t conceive of the idea that they don’t live in the honest democracy they thought they did

      Everybody lies, don’t believe me? ask any MD when he/she asks the patient how many fags a day do you smoke, the patient says 5, the doctor knows it’s 20 so he/she puts down 10

      Everybody lies

    262. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – I’m certain that most English people are decent kind and tolerant. I don’t put the Bullingdon Boy, born to rule, arrogant ignoramuses that dominate the present Tory party in that category. But that is who gains most seats in a Westminster FPTP system.

      The BBC and MSM is responsible for moving English opinion sharply to the right with their promotion of Nigel Farage and now Steve Bannon. The Alt-right is a very dangerous force and we ought to resist all attempts to normalise their opinions. Nicola was right to cancel her appearance on the BBC sponsored conference.

      I watched the Netflix drama doc about Anders Breivik’s murder of young people on the Norwegian island of Utoya. 22 July. Chilling stuff. Worth watching if you have a Netflix subscription.
      Here’s a New Statsman article by Paul Mason on why 22 July could be the anti-fascist movie of our times.

      https://www.newstatesman.com/2018/10/22-july-Anders-Breivik-norway-netflix-review

    263. Petra says:

      Billy Connelly: “One thing I’ve never had any interest in is hating England and the English.” …

      Connolly the chump, who made his money through ridiculing the Scots, still equates Scottish nationalism with racism and previously blamed the SNP for the rise of such. Rise? What rise? You’d think with all of the money that he’s made he could afford to pay for a tutor to enlighten him, such as on the Darien scheme and that, “the English saved Scotland.” Or opt for a course of deprogramming / brainwashing therapy. And why he’s bothered whether Scotland is in Europe is beyond me as he left both Scotland and Europe behind years ago.

      …………………..

      Andrew Marr asking some French woman (politician?), if she’d find it acceptable for areas of France, such as Brittany, to have a hard border if France pulled out of the EU. It just highlights how thick, or shortsighted, Westminster politicians and the media are in that they couldn’t envisage Brexit leading to the breakup of the Union, as many countries across Europe can do such as Spain, Belgium, France, Germany etc.

    264. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      With converts to “yes”, strikes me that the more vociferous the former-“no” the better, actually. It may well grate with some long-term believers on the indy side, but just think how it must hurt on the other side. The uneasy feeling of the ground shifting under their feet.

      The Damascene conversion of former stalwart “no” advocates has the power to free-up many other minds too. The landslide starts with a few loose boulders.

      We need converts, and many will necessarily be Labourites whose party allegiance has blinded them until now.

      So don’t moan, just be grateful for every change in our direction. That’s how we’ll win. It’s the only way we’ll win.

    265. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I am quite appalled by some of the comments about Billy Connolly on here which echo the sort of idiotic intolerance that they accuse Connolly of once having.

      Connolly represents a whole section of the West of Scotland community that have already done the journey to us that he has just done. I suspect had he stayed at home he would have been with us a lot earlier.
      I feel quite strongly about this and will not swallow any shite being flung at converts to our side.

      I’ll probably fulminate later.

    266. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 21 October, 2018 at 11:59 am:

      ” … I dont think Connolly will be shouting from the rooftops nor on Bbc he’s changed his mind on Scottish Independence.”

      Perhaps not, Ronnie, but he has written it in his book and the most likely customers for that book will be Scottish Ccringers like himself.

      Anyway there is another thing about his claims, he says he has never been into, “hate for the English”. I’m older than he is and I’ve news for the Big Yin who I met and often spoke with when he was just a banjo player on the Scottish folk music scene at the Kinema Ballroom. Anyone else remember the Humblebums?

      The news for him is that this life long Scottish Nationalist isn’t into hate for the English either. My life long nationalism is civic nationalism and my fight is not with the English, nor even, “The British”. It is, and always has been, with the Westminster Government and their ignoring the fact that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of kingdoms and never has been a quadratic union of countries with only three of them in thrall to the country of England.

    267. Capella says:

      And for those who are interested, here’s link to an excerpt from Asne Sierstad’s book “One of Us the Story of Anders Breivik and the Massacre in Norway”.

      The following is from Asne Seierstad’s One of Us; which explores how Anders Breivik, a gifted child from Oslo, detonated a bomb outside government buildings in central Oslo before killing sixty-nine people on July 22, 2011. Seierstad is an award-winning Norwegian journalist and writer known for her work as a war correspondent.

      https://lithub.com/one-of-us/

    268. Dr Jim says:

      I remember when the world was full of borders and nobody gave it a second thought and still don’t in half the world, but since the invention of the EU we’ve been lucky enough to have been able to do away with most of the annoyances of them, and it’s funny that the DUP are jumping up and down about this issue when you consider if Ireland was unified the first thing the DUP would want would be a border with anyone who wasn’t in the EU….like England

      Makes you realise that the world over must be chokka with so called politicians who couldn’t give two hoots about the good of their countries when you look at Tories Labour DUP
      the lot of them, it’s pretty disgusting the stuff they keep trying to pull and it’s all about them and their power to keep themselves very well paid

    269. Q. says:

      This is what Great British nationalism looks like. @iainmacwhirter

    270. ronnie anderson says:

      Dave Mc Ewan Hill1.01pm I’ve often wondered how people develop Inflated Egos & your post demonstrated’s that

      [ Connolly represents a whole section of the West of Scotland community ] Aye rite Dave I for one didn’t revel in his denigration of the Scots but but it wiz only Jokes by the Court Jester to Royalty . .

    271. Hamish100 says:

      Billy Connelly doesn’t have a vote so it really does not matter other than it may boost his book sales.

    272. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      people are decent kind and tolerant

      … however, the politics of the far right are beguilingly simplistic … and a lot of folks are easily taken in.

      My own grandfather, who died in 1934, working in heavy engineering in Glasgow. I have been told that he thought those new fangled European Fascists of the time seemed to have it right … they could get things done. They could bypass the elites and make things better of ordinary folks.

      He didn’t live to see the reality. The far right put up a good facade to hide their real objectives.

      And now we see history repeat because it’s all beyond living memory for most.

      You are right in that the most astonishing thing about recent years has been the way broadcast media has given a platform to the far right. Some newspapers always were quick to cheerlead for them, but who would have thought the BBC would have done so much to promote them?

    273. Bob Mack says:

      Anyone got the latest terms and conditions to be an independence supporter?. Asking for several thousand friends.

    274. gus1940 says:

      While Connolly used to sound off regularly against Indy it has not escaped my notice that for a long time he has kept his mouth shut on the matter which led me to think that perhaps he had come to his senses and changed his mind.

      My feelings have now been confirmed and he is welcome to the cause.

    275. Hamish100 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      Don’t need to fulminate but get things into perspective. Connelly was/is a comedian. He was good.

      However, he attacked many on stage on tele, in the press with venom over Scots Independence, devolution, pretendy parliament etcetera. His cringe is well known.

      Apparently Dave we hate the English as our basis for fighting for Independence. I don’t hate anyone but I still want Independence.

      If at this late stage he choses to see the light from his home in the US of A, well and good.

    276. Petra says:

      @ Capella at 12:21pm and Galamcennalath at 12:26pm …. “Links.”

      Thanks for the links, folks, to two excellent articles. Well worth a read.

      …………

      The march in London with around 750,000 protesters doesn’t equate to our walk in Edinburgh with around 100,000 marching. The latter relates to around 1 million two hundred thousand. “Hushed up” of course by the Unionist supporting BBC, STV and newspapers.

      …….

      @ Dave …

      All converts to Scottish independence are most welcome Dave, however I just wonder why he’s still promoting the, in essence our, English racist stance.

    277. Thepnr says:

      @twathater

      “As has been published via I think one of Nana’s links the parliament ONLY get a vote on a deal , they do not get a vote on a no deal that is the tories strategy.”

      The parliament do have a vote if there is no deal and this vote must take place before 21st Jan.

      Here’s an explanation of why from a section of a very long article published today explaining the whole shebang in 12 steps.

      2. Hang on, does all this assume that May gets a deal?

      Yes, but the same legislation also specifies what will happen if we are facing a “no deal” exit, whether that arises because the prime minister either admits to defeat in the talks or has failed to secure any conclusion to them before 21st January next year.

      In this “no deal” world, a minister has to make a statement to the House setting out what the government will do, and move a take-it-or-leave it motion “taking note” of what has happened.

      That might sound like fiddling while Britain burns. But in the event of a defeat on this motion, there would certainly be immediate questions about whether the prime minister could survive, and—were she to fall—all eyes would turn to her successor and whether or not they would seek to change course, perhaps initially by asking Brussels to “stop the clock” to buy some time.

      The entire article is a very long read but worth the while.

      https://archive.fo/TUGjK

    278. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 1 hour ago:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-mZpB3gRDs

    279. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 13:53,

      Any idea who is behind this “News2U” English nationalist outfit?

      More dark money in action…?

    280. Lenny Hartley says:

      Agree with DMH. Connoly epousing Indy particularly with his previous statements in mind us to be welcomed.

    281. frogesque says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland 1.00pm.

      I hope it’s not just a few loose boulders. I’d be happy with the whole Rest and Be Thankful!

      Connolly could be very funny at times, could also act a bit and aye, I do remember him in the Humblebums at Dunfermline Kinema. Couldn’t play shite and would always drift off into one of his freehand monologues. If he’s now for Indy and is sincere then a voice to be welcomed since he became viewed as an Establishment man. Breaking rank must have involved quite some soul-searching.

      I wonder what other big names are thinking along the same lines . . .

    282. Fred says:

      Connolly left Glasgow a very long time ago, a Labour luvvy & aspiring laird/court jester. He represents nothing in Glasgow, he donated his banana boots to the (soon to be closed) Peoples Palace & there are a couple of murals to his memory. He is not a well man & I believe votes n East Sussex!

    283. K1 says:

      We once used to state, that come our independence, we’d never find a fellow Scot admitting they’d voted against it. Perhaps anyone who’s had a rethink prior to our next attempt deserves at least a nod of recognition for getting with it ahead of the inevitable…legacy is affy important tae those that stoked their reputation for a living and made them a ‘big yin’ in their ane place.

    284. Heart of Galloway says:

      As an avid Wings reader and (until now) a non-poster, can I contribute a few thoughts to the Billy Connolly thing?
      I only met Connolly once, in the Scotia Bar in Glasgow. It was one of his favourite retreats in the city. He seemed a decent guy, with time for everybody.
      Through his talent he went on to make millions. And like so many Scottish working class guys who did the same, he had a peculiarly equivocal view of the land of his birth.
      Connolly saw the Scottish nationalism of the late 60s and 70s – the period which forged his his opinion on the movement – as inward looking and fixated with the past.
      He was not 100 per cent wrong.
      So if the internationalist, civic nationalism which defines the Scotland of today has engendered a Road to Damascus-like change of heart, who are we to dercry it?
      The past is gone. People change their minds after being persuaded by events and debate.
      I strongly feel all converts to our side should be welcomed with open arms.
      It doesn’t matter how they arrived, or how long it took them.
      In the battle ahead we will need all the allies we can muster.

    285. orri says:

      The People’s Palace isn’t closing. It was never closing. The big bit on the back is before a very nasty accident involving glass falling on someone happens. That’s because there’s been years of minimal to no maintenance.

      Tell a lie. There might be a minimal closure while they either create a new fire exit or put a canopy over the existing one as exiting into the middle of a building site is frowned upon from a safety standpoint.

    286. Hamish100 says:

      The Peoples Palace has nearly been shut down on a few occasions under Labour. I remember the curator ?Elsbeth King fighting a rear guard action with others to save the Palace. Didn’t go down well with the Labour Party who appointed over her head. From memory did someone called McConnell no get the Director of Museums job. I believe she was related to some Labour FM who liked to wear mini-skirts!! At the same time the various winter type gardens likes of Springburn were trashed.

    287. Cactus says:

      What’s that a popping out of her hole…

      It’s a Whack-a-mole-May.

      Use ur fluffy hammer.

      Burp.

    288. Kangaroo says:

      Valerie @ 10:04am

      You are correct in what you say. I think, but Mr Peffers seems to have more explicit information, that when the A50 goes to the ECJ for a ruling then the Scottish case may be made that we are Sovereign and did not approve of the course of action of the UK Government. However I have no SOURCE other than a guess at this point. I have searched online for submissions but no luck so far and no luck finding a case on the international court website.

      I can found this when googling

      https://www.archynety.com/news/european-judges-have-the-final-say-on-the-scottish-case-of-article-50/

      It discusses the legal situation but does not provide links to other articles or the actual submissions.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top