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Honest dirty hands

Posted on October 08, 2019 by

Yesterday’s poll results attracted quite a surprising amount of anger from people who apparently don’t consider it at all important to the cause of independence to find out what people intending to vote SNP at the next Holyrood election think.

They’re probably not going to like these ones much either.

A third of SNP voters are unconvinced by the First Minister’s constant assurances that a second indyref will be delivered in the next 18 months. But the related question posed by several readers yesterday was “If you don’t think the SNP has a coherent strategy for securing a new vote, what would YOU do, Mister Smartypants?”

Which is annoying, because it’s a question we’ve answered in various contexts half a dozen times in the past year and a bit. So we thought we’d see if voters had been paying any more attention.

This is a specific prospect raised on Wings way back in April, and again in July. And by a margin of exactly three to one, it’s a proposal that would be backed by SNP voters.

Politics is all about compromises, but the SNP have been terrified since 1979 of doing anything that looks remotely like collaborating with the Conservative Party. (Despite the fact that Labour have been playing the “Tartan Tories” card ever since then with spectacularly decreasing levels of success.)

The fact of the matter, however, is that the SNP’s 35 MPs currently have a degree of arithmetical leverage in the Commons that they’ve never had before and quite likely will never have again. On the numbers for the last time the Withdrawal Agreement went to the vote, the SNP hold the balance of power, but are shy of using it.

At the moment, PM Boris Johnson is pretty comprehensively boxed in. His only escape from breaking his promise not to request another Brexit extension is a general election the opposition won’t give him. But there’s no road from the current deadlock that leads to a satisfying outcome for anyone. The messy Remain alliance has the numbers to block Johnson but not to agree anything else, and no polls suggest any post-election scenario that gets the SNP anywhere.

So it’s at least possible that Johnson is so desperate that he’d be willing to risk cutting Scotland loose in order to get his Brexit. We know that it wouldn’t upset his own voters. We know that the Tories look set to lose most if not all of their Scottish MPs anyway. So it’s a fairly easy sell for him.

(He can also frame it to his hardcore Unionists as a chance to kill the Yes movement once and for all, since the polls are still neck and neck at best and most people agree that a second defeat would set independence back for decades.)

But what about the SNP’s perspective? People fearful of the ghost of ’79 say it would enrage voters if they did a deal with a Tory government, but are then unable to explain exactly WHICH voters it would risk.

This poll tells us that the party’s own voters are strongly in favour of the idea, so it’s not them. What, then, about those Unionist Remainers – mainly in Labour – who are currently edging towards independence as a result of Brexit? It seems absolutely ridiculous, by definition, to suggest that if those people were given a direct meaningful choice between independence and Brexit in a referendum they’d choose Brexit out of spite because they were annoyed at the SNP for offering them the decision.

(Some also say that the Tories couldn’t be trusted to honour such a deal, but that’s the case with ANY route to independence, or indeed any kind of deal anywhere in life. And if Brexit shows us anything it’s that Parliament won’t necessarily respect the result of any referendum, so it seems pointless to fret about them reneging on the chance to hold one. If we think that they’re going to cheat us whatever happens, why are we bothering at all?)

It’s not only a politically sound strategy, it’s morally the right one. Some quail at the idea of “abandoning” the rest of the UK to Brexit, but the rest of the UK voted for it and it’s not up to us to overrule them. We don’t like it when that happens to us, why would they be any different?

(Northern Ireland, we must note, also voted Remain, but Northern Ireland has its own solution open to it, and the Withdrawal Agreement effectively keeps NI in the EU indefinitely anyway. And the deal is a far kinder outcome for the rest of the UK than the alternative, which is almost certainly a catastrophic crash-out Brexit.)

We’ve made these arguments before. But now we know that the vast majority of SNP voters agree with us. If the party doesn’t have the courage to get its hands dirty and risk its cuddly media image by doing some actual politics, and if the best chance of independence we’ll ever get vanishes over the horizon, it may not be easily forgiven.

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    1. 08 10 19 12:56

      Honest dirty hands | speymouth

    319 to “Honest dirty hands”

    1. bobajock says:

      Odd, but after news in the last hour … Merkel says ‘No’.

      Polling is about all we have to ‘know’ but its really doesn’t matter unless its during a campaign where people are seeing a news cycle where arguments are made.

      With a GE coming, and a ‘vote SNP for a mandated no-strings-attached’ indyref …

      Well … lets see.

      On a side note, if we have mandate now, and its voted on in Holyrood, then I’m all for ‘do it’. But if the courts crap on that … cos we are still in the EU for example.

      Well … lets see again!

    2. Mist001 says:

      “His only escape from breaking his promise not to request another Brexit extension is a general election the opposition won’t give him.”

      If the Queens Speech gets voted down on 14th October, which is likely, then Johnson can resign and without a PM, the Benn Bill is ineffective which leaves 16 days to strike a deal otherwise the UK leaves on October 31st without a deal.

      Johnson has this pretty well tucked up.

    3. Cubby says:

      The Counsel of despair right enough. A good chunk of the 211 that think there will not be an independence referendum before 2021 are possibly Wings readers and posters.

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If the Queens Speech gets voted down on 14th October, which is likely, then Johnson can resign and without a PM, the Benn Bill is ineffective which leaves 16 days to strike a deal otherwise the UK leaves on October 31st without a deal.

      Johnson has this pretty well tucked up.”

      Maybe. But as we’ve pointed out before, nobody seems to actually know for sure what happens if there’s no PM. Even as we speak, people are in court trying to ensure that the courts send an extension letter if Johnson doesn’t.

    5. defo says:

      “but the rest of the UK voted for it and it’s not up to us to overrule them”
      Says it all really.
      Can’t fault your logic mate, but i’m not holding out any hope of this DEMOCRATIC SOLUTION happening.

    6. jfngw says:

      It’s not a solution that appeals to me, it effectively requires us to agree to leave the EU on Westminster’s terms with the carrot of a referendum bill in the future, one that I could almost guarantee will never see the light of day or will be amended to be useless by the HoL.

      I want to see the votes of the people of Scotland choosing to remain in the EU respected, what is the point of declaring your sovereignty to only meekly accept the will of another country.

      If we are dragged out of the EU I want it done with us screaming and shouting not capitulating.

    7. Ruglonian says:

      About time the SNP started making some serious moves (speaking not a member but as someone who’s not relishing another pointless WM election where I’ll have no choice but to vote for them, or spoil my ballot!)

      SNP members have now got to ensure that their party is heading in precisely the direction they want, otherwise what’s the point of being a member?

      You guys have a duty to ensure that your party is in a fit state for the rest of us to vote for!!

    8. galamcennalath says:

      The opportunity to back the, or any, Withdrawal Agreement may have passed. The strategy might have worked a year ago, but now?

      Johnson has just put forward a ‘deal’ which is so far removed from the WA already agreed between UK and EU, it’s very difficult to believe he was serious. His ‘deal’ appears to have been designed to be rejected. He’s playing to a UK crowd, not seriously negotiating with the EU.

      If his Plans A, B, C really are to keep trying to achieve a ‘no deal’ exit eventually, then the chance to trade WA backing for referendum powers has gone.

    9. Bob Mack says:

      I would do it. In a heartbeat.England wants its freedom. So do we. One size fits all.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      @Galamcennalath

      Sti?! result from court to consider.

    11. Capella says:

      A fifth don’t believe there will be a referendum by 2021. I’m not one of them. I believe there will be a referendum by autumn 2020, perhaps sooner. The 13% who don’t know are just being honest. Nobody knows.

      As for doing a deal with the Tories, if you believe the Tories are trustworthy then you’ll believe anything.

      Looking at what Boris Johnston CAN’T do – I come back to the imossibles. He has to produce a BREXIT, he can’t cancel it. He can’t have a border in Ireland, the US Congress Irish lobby has vetoed that; he can’t have a no deal BREXIT, the HoC has vetoed that. So he will have to have a border down the Irish sea.

      He will expect to hold on to Scotland and its resources to finance this mess. But do we want to do that? That would be the time to have a referendum. Do Scottish voters wish to play second fiddle to NI?

      He obviously believes he can manipulate the agenda and election results with all the resources at his disposal. It’s our job to frustrate that expectation.

    12. Ken500 says:

      Polls are totally unreliable, manipulative and irrelevant. That is why they are consistently wrong. A total waste of money. There is no mystic meg. Especially in a fast changing scenio.

      The ones who decide a Ref result, are the 25%/30% who (normally) do not vote. They are off the political radar and do not respond to polls. Totally unavailable.

      Must people do not know what they will have for dinner tomorrow. Never mind how they will vote in the future.

    13. ahundredthidiot says:

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we (the SNP) need to grow up, do the deal with the devil and then sail off into the sunset – an independent Scotland will soon forget all about any dirty deal with the Tories – it’s a means to an end. It is simply being pragmatic to achieve our Goal.

      and if we lose, then it’d be all over and given the present circumstances we’d deserve exactly that, so, why not. Fortune favours the bold.

    14. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘…it may not be easily forgiven.’

      May?

      Who says Rev can’t do understatement?

      😉

    15. ScottieDog says:

      Agree in principle but NS has gone too far down the ‘saving the U.K.’ road. Would probably take a leadership contest and there ain’t time for that.
      Just what are they going to talk about at conference?

      If they are serious about the climate emergency and the cliff edge of brexit then radical action is required.

    16. Roger Hyam says:

      But you are talking about a unicorn.

      The offer of referendum for Brexit support isn’t on the table because it would be suicide for the English Tories and they don’t need to offer it. Sure membership don’t care about Scotland -till they are going to lose it! They can never be seen to cave to the nationalists. By definition yoons can never be seen to do anything suggested by nationalists. So SNP can’t suggest it.

      If the SNP publicly asked for it they would just be turned down very publicly. And then what?

      You can only make that call once. If it doesn’t work you’ve got to have a pretty good backup plan. What is it?

    17. Ken500 says:

      Johnston is a crook, a criminal liar. He has not succeeded in any thing. Just adds to the confusion and makes people’s lives worse. He has form and a discredited reputation. A total charlatan. He should be in jail. Like a lot of the unionist imbeciles at Westminster. It will not be long before another one hits the dust.

      £4,000 expenses within the guidelines for a Provost expenses. A budget of £1Billion+.

    18. jeff says:

      “Capella”
      “…he can’t have a no deal BREXIT, the HoC has vetoed that.”

      The HoC can’t stop a no-deal though, it’s the default position.
      All BawJaws has to do is sit on his fat arse for a couple of weeks or resign and that’ll be the outcome….

    19. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:

      @Galamcennalath

      Sti?! result from court to consider.

      If you mean he will be forced to seek an extension (which seems likely one way or another) that only means avoiding ‘no deal’ at Hallowe’en.

      The combined Tory and BP polling is 50%. If Johnson stands in a GE on a ‘no deal’ ticket he will get a landslide.

      If Johnson’s plan is to achieve ‘no deal’, he probably will IMO.

    20. ScottieDog says:

      And yes,
      If we fall off the brexit cliff, the question will be, did the SNP do everything they could to stop Scotland’s exit.?

    21. Awizgonny says:

      Doing a deal of enabling a soft Brexit for a referendum vote might have been a strategy when May was PM, but that’s now gone. Johnson wants one thing and one thing only – a no-deal Brexit – and he’s going to get it. And the harder a line he’s taken, the more support he’s been getting from the voters. He doesn’t need the SNP and certainly doesnt need another referendum at this time.

    22. ScottieDog says:

      On the other hand wouldn’t NS be part blamed for chaos in NI.

      This is why England should exit the U.K. as per a previous article on here.

    23. Ken500 says:

      Nicola is saving Scotland. The mandate for the SNP is clear. 86% electorate mandate for stopping Brexit and to keep in the EU. That is what Nicola (SNP) Gov, MP’s are doing. By all means possible. That is not necessarily saving the UK Union. It is saving Scotland. The aims are not mutually dependable. In fact quite the opposite. The majority in Scotland support Independence in the EU. To be confirmed at the Ballot Box.

    24. Merkin Scot says:

      Great article from Rev.

    25. Giving Goose says:

      It may be an idea for the SNP to start laying out some proposals to do 2 things –
      1. Allow Scotland to move to Independence.
      2. Allow England to Br(E)exit.

      e.g

      1. The SNP to articulate a sliding scale of revenues to go to England from Scotland to assist England to transition to a post Brexit economy. This to be in place for x years.

      2. Set out timescales for some sort of defence cutover.

      3. Set out a plan for an all island economy (if the EU will allow it) to function after England exits the EU.

      etc etc

      In other words start talking to the English people about an English Brexit and how Scotland is going to help them achieve that.

    26. Capella says:

      @ jeff – in theory the HoC can do something about “no deal”. First, there’s the NobOff option being tested in the Court of Session today. If valid then the Court of Session can write to the EU Commission and request an extension. I have no doubt that the EU will grant it, if only to seriously annoy Domonic Cummings.

      Second, there is a VONC in the HoC. I know that various groups have said they won’t vote for a Jeremy Corbyn led unity government, even on a temporary basis. Perhaps JC will decide to test their resolve, faced with a no deal BREXIT.

    27. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Polls are totally unreliable, manipulative and irrelevant. That is why they are consistently wrong. A total waste of money. “

      Oh fuck off Ken. Polls are NOT “consistently wrong”. In fact they’re almost never wrong. If they were, nobody would keep paying for them.

    28. Peter A Bell says:

      It seems to me that the SNP could damp down accusations of colluding with the Tories simply by framing their voting – or abstaining – to let a Brexit deal through as Scotland walking away from the whole Brexit shambles resigned to the fact that it can’t be fixed. Which is a perfectly rational course of action and what we should be doing anyway.

      Squeezing a concession on referendum powers out of the British establishment in return for doing what we should be doing anyway looks to me like some damn good politicking.

    29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The majority in Scotland support Independence in the EU.”

      This is just the most awful shite. No they don’t. We’ve polled that question for four years and no one option has ever secured more than 32%. Indy in the EU has always been the most popular, very narrowly, but 32% is not a fucking majority.

    30. Martin says:

      Absolutely. The SNP should have a quiet word in BoJo’s shell like, get the power transfer sorted then vote for May’s WA saving the UK the worst of brexit, BoJo the continuing embarassment of everything he does, the people of NI the worry about sudden hard border and troubles and everyone in Scotland the worry about how we fix things for us.

      Anyone who thinks the SNP doing this is them siding with the Tories is an idiot and anyone trying to punt that message to hurt the SNP politicaly and force us to remain in the UK is a cretin. So…Labour, basically.

    31. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It seems to me that the SNP could damp down accusations of colluding with the Tories simply by framing their voting – or abstaining”

      On the current numbers abstaining wouldn’t come close to letting the deal pass, so the Tories wouldn’t buy that.

    32. Proud Cybernat says:

      Why should the SNP vote for something Scotland they know doesn’t want and do so on a ‘promise’ from a born liar which you feel pretty certain will be reneged upon the moment you allow Brexit to pass? I’ll let Brexit pass (even though Scotland doesn’t want it) cuz we might get IndyRef2 (even though we know we probably won’t).

      That’s just mental. No SNP MP in their right mind would go for that.

    33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “A fifth don’t believe there will be a referendum by 2021. I’m not one of them. I believe there will be a referendum by autumn 2020, perhaps sooner. The 13% who don’t know are just being honest. Nobody knows.”

      In other words, they’re “unconvinced”. Which is what I said.

    34. jfngw says:

      Wow! As we worry about independence and our place in the world one of Scotland’s leading scoop reporters has been sniffing about in a councillors knicker drawer. Who can deny the quality of the Scottish press?

    35. Alistair says:

      Agree with Roger.
      They’ve never offered it and the won’t offer it. It’s a hypothetical with no evidence to suggest it’s an option, and plenty of precedent to suggest it isn’t.

      Any request will be leaked (I’m surprised they haven’t already concocted such a story as it has the whiff of truthyness), then the SNP will be accused of facilitating Scotland’s EU exit, whether true or not. It’s better to do absolutely everything within our power to stop No Deal, with Labour and LibDems playing party politics. The electorate despise such antics, and will be unforgiving if the consequences are as bad as we’re told they will be.

      Once every option within the UK has been exhausted, then the only solution becomes inevitable. Moving to that will be a new problem. But as Craig Murray points out, all you need are other countries to recognise your independence to make it legal in international law – an the Tories are walking the line with this attempt to divide and ultimately destroy the EU.

    36. Dr Jim says:

      If the SNP say there’s going to be a referendum then there is, if you don’t want to vote SNP that’s OK it’s not a crime but if I could suggest not taking that course of action until the SNP don’t deliver a referendum otherwise you’re falling for propaganda before the event

      I will vote SNP and give them every ounce of my support right up until they don’t deliver then I’ll withdraw it because I don’t believe anything I read until the proven fact is in front of my face, up until then everybody lies
      Amazingly including the people who say they don’t, whoda thought that eh

    37. Proud Cybernat says:

      Over and above which, if the SNP allowed Brexit to pass (probably by having to actually VOTE FOR IT), the BritNat media in Scotland would have an absolute field day with them.You know what they’re like. We ALL know what they’re like. The double-standards and mendacity of the press here would have the SNP crucified as the “enemy of the people”, “saying one thing and doing another”.

      You know how it goes, Stu.

    38. AK says:

      Making a deal sounds like a decent option but my concern would be Boris Johnson’s ability to keep his side of the bargain even if he wanted to. He has a minority government and surely many Tories would rebel if whipped to support a motion to grant Hollyrood powers to hold legally binding referendums. Also could MPs from any of the Unionist party’s propose wrecking amendments? Once the Brexit bill was passed he could just go straight into an election anyway.

    39. jfngw says:

      @Rev stu

      ‘no one option has ever secured more than 32%’

      If you have a question with numerous options it’s unlikely ever to hit 50% for any option. More choices just produces more diversity on requirements, we need to narrow it to what now is the real choice, not their buckaroo requirements.

      Independence in the EU or vassalage at Westminster it’s a simple choice.

    40. Scotland or any other land are not never ever will be independent in the E.U . The clue is in the word union that means not only you but also,27 others make the rules Etc.,and the those at the top are unelected so you can’t remove them now that’s some Independence ??? Also this name of remainers they are losers and this cliffs edge crash out etc., is just to make the word leave sound,awfull I want a truly independent and free Scotland no EU no UK no NATO no special relationship with the USA freedom in true sense not a pretendy freedom but hey you guys know better ???

    41. Robert says:

      I can see part of the SNP game. An independent Scotland doesn’t need a basket case England as a neighbour. It (IMHO) would also function better without a hard border at Berwick. So ideal outcome is independent Scotland and separate rUK; but both in the important parts of the EU.

    42. Daisy Walker says:

      I am once again impressed – and very grateful – for your forensic number crunching. Even if I tried, I couldn’t do it.

      I suspect that even if Boris was stupid enough to ‘let us go’ – the financial reality of the current UK set up – pre and post Brexit – is they need Scotland’s assets to pay for the whole shebang. If Boris was so inclined, some powerful movers and shakers might be tapping him on the shoulder and having a quiet word.

      For those who think there will be IndyRef2 next Autumn – shouldn’t there be an official campaign in progress now then? That’s only 1 year away now.

      Anyway 23 days till Brexit day, an organised deal nothing but a joke on the floor, No Deal the only definitive thing on the books. A BoJo ‘promise’ to send a letter to the EU asking for an extension, all that stands in the way now.

      Thank goodness NS is sending out clear, consistent, strong leadership messages – at this time of potential national emergency. I find it really inspiring, that and her secret plan.

    43. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Paterson

      The EU isn’t perfect. No one is saying it is. But it’s a mighty better prospect for Scotland than a Brexited, extreme right-wing UK is.

      The UK is a prison. The EU, at least, is an open prison.

    44. Breeks says:

      In constitutional terms, passing a UK Brexit deal is a big No-no in my opinion.

      Scotland, by emphatic sovereign majority, rejected Brexit, and thus any Scottish Government which enables Brexit to happen against the will of the people is way out on a shoogily and thoroughly unconstitutional limb.

      Maybe it isn’t just Westminster who needs taken to Court in order to face up to their constitutional responsibilities.

    45. Bob Mack says:

      Re court case. Decision 11am tomorrow. Listening to the judges last questions,I think they may wel! be going to send the letter.

    46. dadsarmy says:

      OT – #NobOff
      This is quite an interesting one and maybe serves a similar purpose:

      https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1181533564153864194

      Lord President Carloway: there may be no grounds for this petition now, but if situation changes that would give grounds for a new petition. But to do so could undermine the effectiveness of a remedy due to lack of time. Could we not simply continue this action till after Oct 19?

      All it would require then surely is a quick judgement from the Inner House – and enforcement. Not sure though how THAT would fit with any possible UKSC appeal.

      ———-

      On-topic – both questions interesting, and the result also, Q15 particularly. Personally I’d argue against the “dirty deal” on question of principle; well, sometimes principle needs to come second to exigency, so if I’m outvoted.

      Wwah wah, sob cry oh dear seems we have unlimited Indy Ref power – quick chaps and chapesses, into the breach dear friends and USE IT before you lose it as the rugby refs say.

    47. Dr Jim says:

      @Blair Paterson

      So Dominic Cummings is elected is he, so the thousands of government officials in Whitehall are elected are they, so the House of Lords is elected is it

      The EU make the rules do they, well the UK like every other country had a veto on anything it didn’t like didn’t it

      Let’s do the big countries are the rulers shall we, one name, Wallonia

      See when you talk utter mince at least attempt to pretend at credibility, and yes bloody everybody knows better than you

    48. Cubby says:

      All these Independence supporters getting wound up by mischief makers about a broken promise that hasn’t happened yet. When the mandate is not used for an indyref before the 2021 Scot parliament election then that is the promise broken. That is the time to get angry. All this negative stuff is only helping the Britnats.

      It’s worth reminding some people it’s still 2019. Some of the same people said last year was the best time ever to hold the referendum. Now this year is the best time.

    49. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      They might suspend judgemnet. Not sure if the CoS can sit over the weekend! Think all that’s needed though for a judgement at least is to get a judge out of his or her bed and get action taken, so a judgement with a deferred date of the end of the 19th in terms of the Benn Act, would be a good success.

      Then that would be the #NobOff clerk of court letter sent on the Monday, and give the EU 10 days to get it sorted, which is pushing it a bit even then. Probably enough time though.

      Mmm, 11 days till the 19th Oct, and it’s not looking good for BoJo.

    50. Capella says:

      BBC pushing Luke Graham from Swindon/Perth on R4 again for the umpteenth time. Must be an election pending. So far they’ve had an endless stream of right wing pundits talking about BREXIT – again.

    51. Ian B says:

      Just interested to know why you feel the need to tell those individuals who challenge you to **** off or stop talking ***** etc, etc?

      You’ve clearly lost the plot in the last year and, judging by how angry you are, I think you know it too.

      For someone who claims to run an “Independence supporting website” you are nothing more than divisive now.

    52. Capella says:

      Oooh – take that back, Sir Keir Starmer on now putting the Labour POV.

    53. Hamish100 says:

      I think Stu your judgement is cloudy at the moment. Are you are against the EU? To hold that opinion is fine but I think you need to agree that most Independence voters (at this point in time) believe in Scotland being in the EU.

      This has more credence (rightly or wrongly) of Scotland independent outwith the EU.

      Brexit or Independence in the EU is our choice.

    54. Confused says:

      I would do it – I would deal with the devil – trump, putin, xi, merkel, auld nick and vlad the impaler. This is just the bog standard realpolitik that all adult politicians across the world have to play every day, without shame. Am I getting what I want – am I getting something?

      – getting your enemies to give you what you want is usually called VICTORY

      – and as for people who can’t be trusted – it’s “money upfront” with those punks

      but I don’t think such a deal is even possible because the PEOPLE THE TORIES WORK FOR know fine well how the “money stuff” works in this country. The loss of Scotland, even with “shenanigans”, is too dangerous. The oil is the capstone to a vast inverted pyramid of pound denominated assets – independence is like pulling the plug on the operation.

      Johnson, an infinitely flexible man of no principle, might want to do this – but he and cummings remind me of “casino” the other night – its not rothstein/deniro and santoro/pesci that are in charge, its the vicious old geezers back in kansas in the back of the restaurant.

    55. jfngw says:

      @Blair Paterson

      I see you dream of your we bit hill and glen. If you want to trade with anyone there are rules, even the WTO has rules you need to adhere to. What you seem to be advocating is some sort of North Korea isolated from the world where you can retreat to your but’n ben at the weekend.

    56. Capella says:

      In other words, they’re “unconvinced”. Which is what I said

      Yes, that’s one way of putting it. 🙂

    57. Terry callachan says:

      I agree that SNP voting for brexit helps brexit over the line and that getting agreement from England for a Scottish independence referendum that we might win is worth considering

      If a majority of voters in Scotland go on to vote for Scottish independence all well and good and to not crucial that England honour the vote because once the vote is done that’s it we are independent no going back.

      I have a slight concern that the media in uk will initially encourage such a vote by SNP to get brexit over the line but once brexit is secured there will be a period of time to the Scottish independence referendum during which the uk media will change tack and criticise SNP for voting for something their voters didn’t want and they will use that against SNP in the run up to a Scottish independence referendum to try and persuade the unionist brexit remainers that the SNP can never be trusted and those unionist remainers are the people that have been edging the independence vote upwards.

    58. SilverDarling says:

      I came across this down a twitter rabbit hole. II think we are all guilty of a few but having a light shone maybe will help.

      https://medium.com/the-politicalists/the-17-cognitive-biases-that-explain-brexit-894ec10e03b8

    59. Davido says:

      Hooray. I can now read Wings and get my daily SNP bad stories. That will save me having to read the BBC app. I fear you may lose many customers over this new direction that you have taken.

    60. wull2 says:

      Until we are Independent.

      Vote SNP/SNP nothing else, after we are Ind you can vote for whoever you like.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      There’s a simple and fundamental reality to Brexit and all problems, issues, chaos lead from that.

      Most of the inhabitants of Ireland and the wider international community will not willingly agree to Northern Ireland leaving the EU single market and customs union.

      This was known and highlighted (even by TMay) before EURef. It permeates through everything from the EU Withdrawal Agreement, to future trade arrangements with the EU and US.

      Tories, Brexiteers, British and English Nationalists will not face up to that reality. And that’s the fundamental problem.

      This then impacts on Scotland. We don’t want to leave the EU either. Half of us don’t want to be in the UK.

      Put another way, England cannot have a MANAGED hard Brexit and take the whole UK with it. It can only have an UNMANAGED crash out.

      NI already has the power to hold referendums on Irish unity. That would seem the obvious outcome if English Nationalists cause a chaotic Brexit.

      In Scotland, it’s different. If, as this article suggests, we trade off a managed Brexit with a deal against the power to hold referendums, then the above problems can be resolved. If however English Nationalists cause a chaotic Brexit, then we need another mechanism to escape the Union. If EngNats are aggressive/assertive enough to cause a ‘no-deal’ Brexit, they won’t be in the mood for S30s!

      As I keep saying, I do hope there are plans afoot to handle the various scenarios.

    62. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Scotland, by emphatic sovereign majority, rejected Brexit, and thus any Scottish Government which enables Brexit to happen against the will of the people is way out on a shoogily and thoroughly unconstitutional limb.”

      Sigh. That woudn’t be happening. Scotland would be being given an explicit choice – go through Brexit as part of the UK, or avoid it by choosing independence. Either way it would have chosen its own fate, so it would be the will of the people.

    63. Terry callachan says:

      Over and over I see people saying Scotland cannot be taken out of the EU by Westminster because a majority of people in Scotland voted remain.
      It was a uk vote there is no uk legislation that allows Scotland or England or wales or NI to opt out of a uk vote it’s the majority across the uk that determines the result .

      Fair enough Scotland and NI have every right to be angry and to say that they want out of the UK and that they will rejoin the EU once they are out of the UK but they will not be able to opt out of the UK brexit result.

    64. Mogabee says:

      What’s with the nasty comments towards Stu?

      Looking at two comments in particular.

      If folk don’t like the points offered, then do what most have done and put forward your reasons…

    65. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think Stu your judgement is cloudy at the moment. Are you are against the EU? To hold that opinion is fine but I think you need to agree that most Independence voters (at this point in time) believe in Scotland being in the EU.”

      Oh Jesus fuck. THE ONLY VIABLE WAY TO KEEP SCOTLAND IN THE EU IS BY WINNING INDEPENDENCE.

    66. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You’ve clearly lost the plot in the last year and, judging by how angry you are, I think you know it too.

      For someone who claims to run an “Independence supporting website” you are nothing more than divisive now.”

      I’m angry because the SNP are blowing independence. If you’re not angry about that I don’t know what you’re doing here.

    67. Terry callachan says:

      Well said Mogabee

      I’m amazed Mr Campbell let’s them away with some of their comments which are personal.
      He must have been born with lots of patience.

    68. Terry callachan says:

      Is it possible as a previous person intimated
      That SNP could agree with Westminster gov that
      Scotland’s SNP MP,s will vote in favour of brexit
      If Westminster agrees to allow Scotland to become independent on the basis that
      SNP has more MP,s in Westminster than Labour Tory Lib Dem added together

      Why bother with a referendum

    69. Muscleguy says:

      I think if we do this deal we will need to hold a referendum soonest while the domestic politics iron is hot, before people get comfortable or resigned to the new Brexit reality and while our EU friends are still receptive to the idea of having us.

      With EU support for our joining as iScotland it will be much harder for No10 faced with having to still deal with and agree things with them to stop us becoming independent.

    70. gus1940 says:

      Having been a fan of Wings and a contributor to all fundraisers since before Indy1 I am disgusted at the current anti SNP tack being pursued by Rev Stu.

      Until such time as he stops this destructive and divisive nonsense not a penny of my limited riches will head in the direction of Wings.

      He knows very well that one of the main tactics of Perfidious Albion is the old Divide and Rule game and he seems to consciously or unconsciously be doing their work for them.

    71. Bob Mack says:

      Anti SNP is very very very bad. Mind you its figures from SNP voters. Probably havent taken the oath yet.

    72. Terry callachan says:

      gus1940

      I don’t think he is
      He is providing facts and poll results and an opinion on those poll results

      Opinions might not be those you agree with but that’s life
      It’s not divisive it’s just difference of opinion and that’s pk

    73. Ian says:

      It’s not just about having Indy2, it’s about winning it. Given that with all that’s happened since 2014, and especially since 2016, the fact that the polls have only moved from a 55/45 referendum result, to around 50/50, isn’t exactly reassuring, especially considering that it’s probably largely not the positives about independence that have caused this, but the pantomime incompetence of Westminster.

      So the UK is the weakness to expose that would likely bolster enough support needed to win a referendum. I’d like to see more evidence to show that the UK’s economic decline isn’t a recent one-off. It’s been going on for decades as seen with comparisons with our European neighbours. Brexit has just hugely increased the rate at which it was already happening.

      To take just one example, if the UK can’t make a success of it’s economy with North Sea oil, how can it without it. It can’t and not least because so many in westminster are stuck in a past that didn’t actually exist for most people.

      The UK has a long list of acts of incompetence/short term greed that it’d rather not see being brought up. Time to put them on the back foot, otherwise, how will the polls move to a position where losing a referendum isn’t a serious risk. Even with Brexit, it hasn’t so far. But then Brexit is only the tip of the UK’s unstable iceberg.

      The SNP can’t do all that’s needed on their own.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      Muscleguy says:

      I think if we do this deal we will need to hold a referendum soonest while the domestic politics iron is hot, before people get comfortable or resigned to the new Brexit reality and while our EU friends are still receptive to the idea of having us.

      I agree, in the event of a deal for powers trade off, we should have IndyRef2 as soon as possible.

      Remember, with a WA comes with a transition period and I believe that is a good time to have IR2.

      The pain of a no-deal has two sides. One, it could be argued that the pain would encourage people to vote YES. However, that pain would also be used by BritNats as a fear tactic saying, “this is what breaking up does, do you want to double that?”

      On balance, I believe an IR2 during a transition period would be best.

      But this all assumes there isn’t a ‘no-deal Brexit’. For me it looks increasingly as if Johnson and buddies want a ‘no-deal’ and that’s what they are working towards.

    75. Maria F says:

      “but the rest of the UK voted for it and it’s not up to us to overrule them”

      In exactly the same way that it is not up to “them” to overrule us, and yet, they are trying their hardest to do just so. So if they do without remorse, so should we.

      Scotland has as much right to determine the direction of travel of the UK as England and Wales have.

      Given the clear differences in the political trajectories that Scotland and England/Wales are heading towards, it is evident that the only democratic solution for this situation is to dissolve the treaty of union and let each kingdom freely follow its own path.

      Now, my question is, why should be Scotland who bites the bullet and holds the referendum? Why should be Scotland who clears their mess? Shouldn’t be England and Wales who hold such referendum as they were the ones voting against the status quo?

      I think they should.

    76. dadsarmy says:

      @gus1940
      The thing is people can brush things under the carpet, or confront them. Take Sturgeon not being there on Saturday. You could get people idly wondering why not, then moving on as it’s not important.

      But then you get an article like this:

      https://www.thenational.scot/politics/17952663.no-show-fm-slap-face/

      and you not only think about it, you make your mind up perhaps. As, clearly, just about all the commenters have below the line.

      In the case of Rev’s article, even if seriously meant they have the effect of a “Devil’s Advocate”, and make you think about your own opinions on the matters. And that, even if there are no suprises to yourself, can help strengthen the confidence – or trust.

      In this particular case my opinion is you don’t better yourself by trampling all over your neighbour and kicking them in the face and other parts of the body. You do it with dignity and even compassion – and take them with you if you can.

    77. Mist001 says:

      Scotland being dragged out of the EU via Brexit can only be good news because even if Brexit wasn’t happening, an independent Scotland would be out of the EU since it’s only a part of the EU by virtue of the fact that it’s a part of the UK.

      So Scotland being dragged out gives the Unionists one less stick to beat Scotland over the head with. That’s one less argument to win.

      The ONLY way that Scotland can remain a part of the EU is by remaining part of the UK. FACT.

      So anybody that’s serious about independence has to ask themselves why the SNP and it’s leadership were hell bent on stopping Brexit to the point where it’s at now that they no longer want to stop Brexit but instead they want to stop a no deal Brexit.

      Again, I’ve been saying this until I’m blue in the face, this leadership bunch don’t seriously want Scottish independence. They’re either seriously incompetent OR it’s being deliberately sabotaged from the inside. It’s one of the two.

      And a puzzling thing for me is why none of the MPs or MSPs are questioning this. As most of us are aware, there are constant ‘leaks’ of information from all governments all over the world despite their best efforts to prevent them, but there are NONE from the SNP, not even on Wikileaks.

      And for me, that is very, VERY strange.

    78. Dr Jim says:

      If a big guy is going to punch you in the face to prevent you getting to the bar you deal with the big guy first then you can get to the bar

      If the SNP don’t do their best with the big Brexit thug guy nobody will support us by moving out of the way to help us get to the Independence bar

      The world is watching this and their political support will be desirable and important later

      Don’t let folk minimise this into a regional squabble of stamping their feet and squealing gaes ma sweeties now or ahm no playin

    79. Big Jock says:

      The caveat being! We must have complete control of the referendum question, franchise and administration.

    80. Breeks says:


      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      8 October, 2019 at 2:05 pm

      “Scotland, by emphatic sovereign majority, rejected Brexit, and thus any Scottish Government which enables Brexit to happen against the will of the people is way out on a shoogily and thoroughly unconstitutional limb.”

      Sigh. That woudn’t be happening. Scotland would be being given an explicit choice – go through Brexit as part of the UK, or avoid it by choosing independence. Either way it would have chosen its own fate, so it would be the will of the people.

      Disagree Rev Stuart. If an option is unconstitutional, it is unlawful.

      Stick to the letter of the law, and Westminster has a sovereign Scottish roadblock it cannot remove or overrule. If they want Brexit, they Brexit without Scotland, and kill off the Union in the process.

      We have every mandate and constitutional legitimacy to be rock solid in our resolve, as the Union flounders and comes to grief .

    81. Breeks says:

      … It is England who should be given the choice and referendum.

    82. Robert Peffers says:

      Don’t you shower of numpties realise that legally there are only two partner kingdoms in the United Kingdom and The Kingdom of Scotland is one of them. Go figure for yourselves or do I really need to spell it out for you?

      As long as you persist in seeing the matter as between either between the country of England(Westminster), and the country of Scotland(Holyrood), you are looking at it wrongly.

      The fight is not between countries in the United Kingdom because the United Kingdom is not legally either a unified country nor is it a union of three and a bit countries. It is legally a union of only two, equally sovereign kingdom and thus the SNP are fighting to keep the Kingdom of Scotland in the European Union.

      When either the country or the kingdom of England gets its collective wish to leave the European Union we want them to leave alone – not taking the Kingdom of Scotland out along with themselves.

      That’s the consequences of viewing the problem as being between countries when the union is legal a partnership of kingdoms leads to. What we Scots need to do is convince the EU member states that the United Kingdom is a union of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms and one has voted for leave while the other has voted to remain and neither kingdom is the United Kingdom.

      It would be grossly unfair for the EU to penalise one equally sovereign kingdom to suit the other equally sovereign kingdom.

      What the hell else did you imagine Joanna Cherry and the Inner Court of Session were up to? Other than proving the two kingdoms are very different partners but equal in a union that Westminster is legally supposed to represent both equally. Yet Westminster never has done so in all of 312 years?

      That is the ideal situation for Scotland whereby the European Union recognises the United Kingdom as what it legally is – a union of two equally sovereign partner Kingdoms.

      In recognising the United Kingdom as legally two equally sovereign kingdoms the EU cannot then treat Westminster as if it were just the parliament of an illegal Greater England that includes the UK partner Kingdom of Scotland and that the partner kingdom of Scotland just doesn’t matter.

      This allows the EU to rule that Scotland remains in the EU as the legacy member state of the EU while the Kingdom of England gets their democratic wish to leave.

      It all hinges on the EU recognising the United Kingdom is, “just what it claims to be on the tin”, a United Kingdom of two equally sovereign partner kingdoms.

      The inner Court of Session sure as hell established that as a legal fact and forced the UK Supreme Court to agree and I believe they have just made the same point again today.

      There it is right in front of your noses. The SNP Westminster faction are making the point that the United Kingdom is factually a two kingdom partnership of legal equals while the Holyrood faction is fighting to keep the equally legal Scottish partner kingdom of the union within the EU because as an equal partner in the EU they want to remain in the EU. It isn’t rocket science.

      They do say that you cannot see the wood because of all those trees getting in the way and another old, but true, saying is the best place to hide something is in plain sight when everyone is used to seeing it there.

      Now I’m away back to watching Wings destroy itself just as Westminster is doing just now.

    83. Iain mhor says:

      Two suppositions – there is a scenario where Scotland holds a balance of power & all the other parties and players are happy to cut Scotland loose.
      I don’t see it, how can that ever occur? Never mind the first scenario, if anyone doesn’t want to see Scotland cut loose, they’ll just step up to support the same “arrangement” for some other benefit to themselves and Scotland isn’t required.

      But, eh what? – If it’s going to happen anyway, because Scotland is supporting it, then of course the opposition will step up and say f**k it, “gies a tenner and we’ll do it. They are at least up a tenner and keep Scotland.
      For the exact same reasoning, scenario #1 is unlikely to ever come about either. Of course, it could all be super secret hush hush and no-one gets to know about any deal until it’s too… Ahahahahha.No.

      What is more interesting, is how did we get a referendum in 2014? I mean really. What was in it for the Tories and the rest. Just putting it to bed and killing Indy? OK maybe there really is that level of naivety in politics. Who knows, not me, I was baffled then and I’m none the wiser now.

      As for the poll question, well, we’re pretty.much f***d aren’t we? Replace ‘arrangement’ with “promise”.
      It is a bit “When did you stop beating your wife” though – poor resondents, but they could have answered ‘Don’t know’, so that is scary.
      Unless there is a question asking “If the SNP agreed to the ‘arrangement’, do you think Scotland would receive the powers?” If it returns a thumping majority as NO, there may be a glimmer of hope.
      Otherwise, we know how they win the next Indyref, rinse and repeat 2014 – Close your eyes, I promise I won’t hurt you…”like this?” Yesss perfect.

    84. Breeks says:

      Sorry. Keep losing signal.

      England should have a second referendum to proceed with Brexit without Scotland, or remain, and respect Scotland’s absolute constitutional sovereignty.

      I don’t see the Union surviving either condition.

    85. red sunset says:

      “Muscleguy says:
      8 October, 2019 at 2:14 pm
      I think if we do this deal we will need to hold a referendum soonest while the domestic politics iron is hot, before people get comfortable or resigned to the new Brexit reality and while our EU friends are still receptive to the idea of having us.”

      Absolutely right.

      If going down the route of trade off IndyRef2 for Brexit, then one solution to get it close to cast-iron, would be getting the Queen to co-sign the deal. That’s about the only thing that would make Westminster’s word worth anything at all.

    86. Giving Goose says:

      Robert Peffers

      Thanks for the posts.

      I think I understand what you have articulated but would benefit from a slightly reworded version to make it clear.

      Is this possible?

      Thanks

    87. Big Jock says:

      Gus 1940 – Stu is trying to shine a spotlight on the truth. However some people will only accept the truth presented by their leaders ,not the actual truth.

      I have been in the SNP for 30 years. In 28 of those years I trusted the SNP leadership. The last 2 years have changed that. I have enough evidence to question their tactics and right now I have no faith in what is being presented to me.

      I am a member of the SNP, a follower , a believer. But I am not a damn fool. I have my eyes wide open.

      The SNP buggered up their strategy when they got on the stop Brexit train. It’s taken them thousands of miles from their starting point.

      This was supposed to be about Scotland staying in the EU , not stopping England leaving. We need off the train, and to let it carry on without Scotland. It’s not going to stop!!

    88. Maria F says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      8 October, 2019 at 2:07 pm

      “I’m angry because the SNP are blowing independence”

      I am not angry about that because I do not think the SNP are blowing independence. I believe the SNP are getting us closer to independence. It does not take to be Einstein to realise that the level of gerrymandering and interference by the English establishment and its minions in our last referendum was of cosmic proportions. Everything from the MSM, the broadcasters, the CIvil Service, the Electoral Commission, everything was biased. The lies they told us were incredible. The bribes they dangled in front of our noses during purdah when they never intended to deliver them were unethical and insulting. We had a civil service machine controlled by England working against us. We had well know political figures from the US and other countries parroting crap against independence. We had a BTogether campaign funded in part by money coming from out of Scotland; we had campaigns with HQ in London working against Scotland’s independence; we had Vote no Borders, BTogether and Ruth Davidson colluding on the exact same day with the same lie, that to protect our EU citizenship we need to vote against independence; we saw the manager of the branch of a third rate party in Scotland announcing the results of the postal votes live on TV even before the counts were completed and yet, the electoral commission did not even lift a finger. In any other country the result would have been declared void and the referendum re-run. And yet, here, in this so called democratic union they got away with it.

      So what is the likelihood that they will do it all over again, even more so now when the starting point of pro independence among the electorate is no longer 26% as it was in January 2013?

      I would say pretty damn high, so if there is another route to independence that is not a doomed referendum, I think we should take it.

      The best route I can think of is the one that would be opened by England and Wales demanding Scotland to leave the UK because for as long as it remains on it they cannot longer get what they want.

      Stopping brexit is a wonderful opportunity to open that route wide open because not only you would have the electorate of Wales and England pushing for it, but more importantly you would have the VIP taxdodgers, hedge funds and foreign interests behind brexit also pushing hard for it.

      So I do not believe the SNP is “blowing independence”. I think they are getting us pretty damn near to independence. I am sorry to say, but personally I think it is a bit disrespectful and actually ungrateful to even suggest that the SnP is blowing independence when considering the potential personal danger people like Joanna Cherry are putting themselves everyday into by attempting to stop a brexit Scotland never voted for and never gave consent to. I am very thankful to her for that.

      “If you’re not angry about that I don’t know what you’re doing here”
      Reading what you have to say, sharing thoughts, ideas, frustrations and opinions with others that may be experiencing the same. Trying to learn new things, understand different points of view and find new perspectives from where to look at the current situation that I would not have even thought otherwise.

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Blair Paterson @ 13:09,

      Tell that to the Irish.

      (But be prepared for an avalanche of ridicule. And they don’t even know your outpourings.)

    90. vlad (not that one) says:

      If we bark at every tree in the current political jungle we might not notice the wood. So, let’s step back, and please let’s not argue semantics.

      Starting with the blinding obvious: what is the point of having a political party?
      (a) Personal promotion of participants, perhaps with a view to ermine etc., or
      (b) welfare of the people, nationally (and afap everywhere), now and in the future.

      When it comes to the SNP, I shall discount (a). There are quicker routes to fame and riches. Think Michael Forsyth, Alastair Darling, Malcolm Rifkind, Robin Cook, George Brown, to name but a few.
      So, it is then about our and our childrens’ wellbeing.

      It is increasingly evident that as long as Westminster is ultimately in charge, our own concerns will remain on the back burner, if at all.

      The cure?
      (1 )Independence,
      (2)Independence,
      (3 )Independence.

      How to get there? International acceptance will be essential, a (grudging) WM acceptance would be useful. What are the options?
      (i) Straightforward unilateral declaration (dissolving the Union),
      (ii) IndyRef2.

      If the unfortunate result of the 2014 referendum is to be overturned, a wholesale IndyRef2 result would be the ideal way to do it. SNP position has been that IndyRef2 would be on the cards if
      (p) there was a popular demand for it, or
      (q) there was a material change in the circumstances from 2014.

      At this point we are a way, way down from strategy level. We are scrutinising individual trees to piddle against.
      So, in relation to brexit the available tactical options are: Do we support
      (w) Stop brexit
      (x) Leave with a deal
      (y) Crash out

      Crash-out ticks both “demand” and “change” boxes, almost guaranteeing a “yes” indyRef, but leaves Scotland out of EU and tethered – pro tem – to a sinking rUK ship, only to create a border on the Tweed, and leaving us to try to crawl back into the EU. Not a good outcome in my estimation, though unavoidable perhaps, bit like death.

      Stop-brexit would do fine on most points. All that can be said against is that it does not meet the “material change” InddyRef2 criterion. However, the “Eton Mess” in that other place has, in my estimation, finally tipped the balance on the popular demand scales. We could remain in UK and vote for the original “Indy in the EU”. The Met can deal with riots in Salford or wherever.

      Leave-with-deal might work. Both criteria ticked. There would be a transition period, sufficient to have IndyRef2, and if succesful, to leave UK but stay in EU. Post-independence relations with England could be sorted one way or the other.

      So, I see no conttradiction in favouring both a “stop” and a “deal” brexit outcome.

    91. Bob Costello says:

      I suggested more or less that in the run up to the last GE in a blog titled “ time to think the unthinkable” one slight addition I would suggest and that would be “ an agreed outcome” similar to the sect 30 scenario

    92. dadsarmy says:

      The ONLY way that Scotland can remain a part of the EU is by remaining part of the UK. FACT.

      No, it isn’t. It isn’t “FACT” at all, it’s FAKE NEWS.

    93. HeehawBaws says:

      I suppose the top one could have been worded as “a margin of more than 3 to 1” and the 2nd one as “more than a third remain unconvinced”.

    94. Jim McIntosh says:

      Interesting read, my only thought is that it might get us a referendum but could ultimately lose us the vote.

      From polls in 2014 it seems a large majority of English born voted NO, how would they vote this time if they thought we’d abandoned their kin to Brexit?

      It doesn’t have to be true, but that’s how it would be spun.

    95. Mist001 says:

      @ dadsarmy

      Perhaps you’d care to enlighten us all as to why this is fake news? I for one, would certainly be interested.

    96. Bryan Weir says:

      These poll questions are so complicated most people won’t really have a clue what they voted for. This is just unnecessary trouble making and self promotion.

    97. Maria F says:

      Mist001 says:
      8 October, 2019 at 2:40 pm

      “The ONLY way that Scotland can remain a part of the EU is by remaining part of the UK. FACT.”

      If that is a FACT then by logic, it must also be a fact that should Scotland had became independent in 2014, considering the uK is just a bipartite union, then the kingdom of England, also independent would have also automatically lost its EU membership.

      If that is “a FACT”, one can seriously question what it is really what BTogether, Ruth Davidson, Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, the three stooges signing the vow, Cameron and his crocodile tears and pretty much everybody else campaigning against independence, were fighting for.

      Were they fighting for Scotland to remain in the UK or were they actually conning us all big time because what they really were after was for the Kingdom of England, namely those banks and financial entities in the City of London, to retain its EU status and privileges?

      I welcome your clarification on this.

      “So anybody that’s serious about independence has to ask themselves why the SNP and it’s leadership were hell bent on stopping Brexit”

      I am serious about independence and do not ask such a thing because I think the reason stands to the obvious. In fact I do actually consider that stopping brexit, stopping all those VIP taxdodgers in the Panama and Paradise papers escaping EU tax avoidance laws, stopping the tax havens escaping forced transparency regulations, stopping the hedge funds making a killing out of brexit, stopping all those corporates fracking the bejesus out of Scotland, and stopping all those American interests avoiding EU regulations and getting their paws on our NHS, is actually the fastest way to get us to independence.

      Actually, If you are serious about independence I am assuming you must have spread your FACT mentioned above wide, because if the brextremists down south, Johnson, Mogg, the ERG, the Dark money sources, the faragists, the tax havens, the ViP taxdodgers and the rest get wind of the FACT that, according to you, the fastest way for them to crash out of the EU is by Scotland becoming independent, we may become independent without a referendum!

    98. Bob Mack says:

      These poll questions are complicated. ha ha ha ha ha ha.ha

      Check youve pinned your address on an item of clothing. Ba ha ha

    99. Mist001 says:

      @ Maria F

      You are ABSOLUTELY correct. If Scotland had become independent in 2014, then England, Wales and NI would all have been dragged out of the EU by Scotland. FACT.

      Not one single individual nation state of the UK is a member of the EU. The UK as a whole entity IS. That’s why England leaving is taking everyone else with them.

      I’m happy though, it seems at least one person is starting to grasp the situation.

    100. dadsarmy says:

      @Mist001
      Here’s one opinion, read the full article:
      https://fullfact.org/law/can-scotland-stay-in-eu/

      so it isn’t a “FACT” is it? It’s an “OPINION”, and if/when the UK leaves the EU dragging Scotland with it unless we’re Independent, or in other ways obtain a stay of execution from the EU, legally or politically, then it’s “FAKE NEWS”.

      I’m totally allergic to people who claim “OPINION” as “FACT”, and that’s a fact.

    101. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP loyalists are saying delivery of indyref2 is the big test of the SNP. Only if they don’t deliver that should people be aggrieved.

      Is that true?

      The SNP’s number one priority is stopping Brexit; it has been for over three years. If Brexit is stopped / postponed for a considerable amount of time, it could be argued that that’s evidence the SNP strategy is sound.

      However, if Scotland is dragged out the EU, then SNP strategy will have totally failed Scotland.

      I see no reason why people should still feel confident about SNP strategy regarding indyref IF the SNP’s number one policy, stopping Brexit, fails.

      Of course, for Dr Jim and others, if Brexit goes ahead, we’ll be told that that is all part of the Great Secret Plan of the SNP, blah blah blah.

    102. dadsarmy says:

      From the last one for the casual reader:

      Conclusion – It’s very likely that Scotland would have to re-apply to join the EU on independence, although in theory it could stay in without a hiatus if all member countries agreed to write it into the EU treaties.

      Here’s another OPINION from 2016, all the more valid currently in my OPINION:

      https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/opinions/can-scotland-leave-uk-and-remain-eu

      Winning IndyRef2 would enable the Scottish government to ask Brussels to open discussions about Scotland remaining in the EU. Edinburgh could seek a transitional arrangement that would continue its participation in the single European market, including free movement of workers. In Edinburgh and Brussels the momentum would be to agree that Scotland would become the EU’s 28th member state. Simultaneously, the momentum of Brexit would be pushing the UK government to fly off in all directions.

      and there are plenty of similar OPINIONS.

    103. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…not stopping England leaving.”

      The SNP are trying to stop the UK leaving the EU. As others have pointed out, if UK exits then it’s the end of the Union. Brexit and UK are mutually exclusive. If England doesn’t like the fact that the SNP are trying to prevent the UK leaving the EU then England–again, as others have said–should hold its own IndyRef to leave the UK thereby automagically quitting the EU. England’s mess. England should sort it properly and that means having their own IndyRef to quit the UK (that the dastardly SNP are keeping them imprisoned in).

    104. jfngw says:

      @Mist001

      Wibble I think is what you are saying. There was little chance that what was left of the UK would be forced to leave the EU, they have currently bent over backwards to stop us leaving currently.

      Also if the UK ceased in 2014 the rUK would not be the successor state as the it would have ceased to exist, it would be a new state as Scotland were not leaving, they were ceasing a union. If they had accepted the rUK and excluded Scotland then I suspect some legal action would have occurred.

    105. vlad (not that one) says:

      Colin Alexander @ 16:0 The SNP’s number one priority is stopping Brexit
      No. Achieving independence is. Stopping brexit might come useful,though.

    106. Maria F says:

      Mist001 says:
      8 October, 2019 at 3:55 pm

      “If Scotland had become independent in 2014, then England, Wales and NI would all have been dragged out of the EU by Scotland”

      “Dragged out of the EU by Scotland”??????????

      Don’t be ridiculous. Wales would have been dragged out by the Kingdom of England. Scotland would not be “dragging” anybody other than itself. The Kingdom of England would have gladly walked out of the EU the same as Scotland, dragging Wales with it – considering that your FACT is really a fact, that is.

      The difference would be that while Scotland would endeavour to rejoin the EU, the kIngdom of England would not and would force Wales to remain out – hence the desperation of all those disgusting liars during 2014 for keeping the UK intact.

      Okay, so you are telling me that there is now an additional and even bigger question mark over the honesty, the credibility, the principles and the real motives of all those who campaigned against Scotland’s independence in 2014. Well thank you. I have been suspecting as much for the last 5 years. This of course explains beautifully the incongruence of Swinson and her libundems, who would rather see Scotland out of the EU and in the gutter if England is out too.

      Now, to more important matters, are Farage, Bannon, Johnson, the ERG, the VIP Taxdodgers, the Tax havens, Mogg, Cummings etc aware of this FACT? Why are they not exploiting it? Is it because they do not think the banks, tax havens etc can make it without Scotland’s assets?

      “That’s why England leaving is taking everyone else with them”

      Actually I think this is factually incorrect. “England” is not leaving the EU, because to do so it and its legitimate representatives would have had to grow the backbone to run its own referendum like Scotland did in 2014. But their representatives simply do not have the balls for that.

      What is happening here is that the legitimate representatives of England are undemocratically dragging the entire UK out of the EU without the consent of Scotland and NI because they want to continue exploiting Scotland’s assets and because they want to continue using Scotland, Wales and NI as markets for England to shift its own produce, and hopefully expanding its share of the market once the EU products have been pushed out.

      They would not be able to do so should they had the balls to run the referendum just in the Kingdom of England, dissolve the UK and see how Scotland and possibly NI re join the EU making those wonderful markets disappear behind a hard border.

      So they have been lying to us about the hard border too. It is not Scotland who would be prejudiced by the hard border, it will be England and big time. In other words, it is evident that England’s representatives do not trust in England’s capabilities to go solo one bit, so they want to ensure they drag their cash cows and buoyancy apparatus (Scotland, Wales and NI) with them.

      “I’m happy though, it seems at least one person is starting to grasp the situation”

      I am not the only one. There are many people reading these threads that understands the situation. Everybody that is aware that the UK is a bipartite union of equals understands.

    107. jfngw says:

      WGD read unmissable today (Quo Vadis), I actually found it quite moving, in amongst the anger.

    108. Republicofscotland says:

      I fear the SNP are not fully intent on pushing for indy at this very crucial point in time. We won’t ever get a better chance to leave this unfit for purpose union.

      We have opinion after opinion, on scenarios that haven’t yet or will not play out at all. The SNP should be keeping their eyes on the independence ball rather than the Brexit one.

      I fear once Brexit is resolved one way or another, that that the distraction that it had become to Westminster, which is ideal for us and independence will be gone allowing the union to focus its full weight on destroying our chances of becoming independent.

      Sturgeon must not put Brexit before independence.

    109. Fireproofjim says:

      We are all impatient for Inderef2 but this is a time for patience. This month above all others.
      At the moment there is absolutely no clarity about Brexit so any strategy which the SNP Government might use could be a waste of time. As Harold Macmillan said, “ We are all at the mercy of events, dear boy. Events.”
      We only need to wait for another three weeks. Perhaps less. Until the picture is clearer.
      Personally I am sure that there will be an Inderef2 in the autumn of next year, and I am also sure that the patient wooing of the EU leaders by Nicola will result in an immediate offer of EU membership on gaining independence,

    110. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Sturgeon must not put Brexit before independence.”

      “Sturgeon”? [Klaxon sound]

      The FM has said there will be a 2nd Independence Referendum in the second half of 2020. I have little reason to doubt that. If she fails to deliver on that THEN and ONLY THEN will I have some serious words for our First Minster.

      Now hawd yer wheesht and let her get on with delivering it.

    111. dadsarmy says:

      @Fireproofjim
      and I am also sure that the patient wooing of the EU leaders by Nicola will result in an immediate offer of EU membership on gaining independence

      I think so too, and the old bogey about a Spanish veto (or any other) is also non-existent. In fact presuming Bozo does send the letter requesting a 3 month extension, the spectre of Hungary vetoing it is also likely to be laid to rest, hence discrediting the idea of any veto for minor reasons.

      The EU has far more to offf Hungary than the UK does, and the same goes for Spain or any other country.

      I also think that the moment Indy Ref 2 is announced, a holding pen will be made available, and the “light” will be left on for us.

    112. Mist001 says:

      @ dadsarmy

      No. It’s a FACT. The internet supposedly consists of the sum total of human knowledge. Out of all that, I challenge YOU and that website that you posted, to show me and everyone else, one single document, signature, contract or indeed, any shred of evidence anywhere that specifically states that Scotland is a member of the EU.

      I think another fact has evaded you. If Scotland was a member of the EU, then it wouldn’t be concerned with stopping Brexit since it would make no odds to Scotland.

      Now, stop posting dumb links as if they were anything meaningful.

    113. Republicofscotland says:

      Id like to add wasn’t it the EU on pluraist democracy that help set up the devolved parliaments to comply with EU membership.

      What’s to stop Johnson negating Holyrood and syphoning powers to the new hub post Brexit, afterall we won’t have the protection of the EU to call on.

      And if this is truly the case, why hasn’t the SNP who’ve had like the rest of us three years of this Brexit debacle, sought independence more vigioursly. Any PM saying to Sturgeon on holding a indyref not now or you’ve had your once in a generation, has been met with lacklustre and a sense of inevitably I think by her.

      I read somewhere that Sturgeon is obsessed with keeping her party in power, independence would surely weaken that power, as the other useless inept unionist parties would need to change, and produce coherent policies or fade away.

      Don’t get me wrong the SNP have been good for Scotland on a whole host of policies from bridges to baby boxes and beyond, but we cannot reach a higher lever without all the levers that a government needs, for instance we cannot open a drug room or ban fireworks both are reserved powers to Westminster.

      We need independence to grow and flourish.

    114. Dr Jim says:

      If there’s any oxygen or blood to be sucked the suckers dive on quick to fasten their lips on to it

      It just takes the right kind of SNP bad piece of nonsense jibber jabber to get them out of their better together boxes if they think somebody’s on their side

      Have at it suckers because the whole internet is noting what’s happening here and they’re not impressed by this embarrassment

    115. cirsium says:

      @vlad, 3.10

      Crash-out ticks both “demand” and “change” boxes, almost guaranteeing a “yes” indyRef, but leaves Scotland out of EU and tethered – pro tem – to a sinking rUK ship, only to create a border on the Tweed, and leaving us to try to crawl back into the EU

      A crash-out means that we are out of Europe which includes membership of the EU. If Scotland had regained its national sovereignty in 2014, we would have been out of the EU but not out of Europe. We would have joined/remained in the EEA and joined EFTA as a small, independent nation, just like Iceland and Norway. It would have taken us between 2 and 3 years to become fully functioning. This would involve setting up a public banking structure, our own banking regulations and working through the stages for the transition to our own currency. The Scottish people could then have considered if Scotland should apply to join the EU.

    116. Dan says:

      Confucius say: It’s totes bollox that in a union of supposed equals if one partner shits the bed the other partner is somehow obligated to clean up the mess…

    117. Proud Cybernat says:

      And those here having faux bun fights with each other in order to maximise disruption here on WoS – we see you. We really do.

    118. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I fear that we are getting well ahead of ourselves here with this latest poll series, to which particular destination we all know it’s heading.

      (And whose results, so far at least, have managed to reveal no more than what we knew already, the confusion in many peoples’ minds evoked by a barrage of competing hypothetical “offers”. Which is hardly surprising given the truly historical magnitude of this desperate existential crisis for the poor old decrepit UK.)

      Just why are we agonising right now over what might happen two years from now, when the most immediate task is to demonstrate massive support for independence by voting SNP in the increasingly-imminent UKGE? For which there is no sensible alternative, whatever one’s individual reservations about tactics and strategy? And I say this with my own particular reservations about the “forever-delayers” in the SNP and elsewhere.

      Demotivation à la 2017 is about the only tactic our threadbare opponents have left to deploy, so anything which diminishes the likelihood of a substantial victory for the SNP is playing right into their hands. Personally, I’m willing to suspend judgement on Nicola & Co and give them my fulsome support right up to the eve of the actual (and likely inevitable) Brexit, and see what transpires as this all unfolds, keeping in mind her Bute House promise to us back in the heady days of the Spring of 2017 that we would have a choice while it still matters.

      However, in order for the SG to be able to deliver on that promise, they need to be in a position of strength (not least to be able to gainsay the internal Wishartite doubting Thomases).

      Obvious really.

      The rest can wait for another day. With a week being an eternity at the rate of current developents, two years from now is for the birds.

    119. Breeks says:


      Maria F says:
      8 October, 2019 at 3:05 pm
      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      8 October, 2019 at 2:07 pm

      “I’m angry because the SNP are blowing independence”

      I am not angry about that because I do not think the SNP are blowing independence. I believe the SNP are getting us closer to independence…

      I’m with Rev Stu. Although I don’t think the SNP are blowing Independence wholesale and forever, I think they definitely are blowing the immediate Constitutional route to Independence which Brexit dropped in our laps. Not just Independence, but an Independence that launches us into Europe on tide of welcoming positive emotion, but an Independence which simultaneously grants Scotland bragging rights in the dissolution of the UK because any concept (however inapplicable) of Scotland “seceding” from the UK is blown out of the water, given that the collapse of the Union was made inevitable by the crack handed incompetence of the UK Government.

      Democracy? We HAVE a democratic mandate, a sovereign democratic mandate, and if want a second democratic cherry on the cake, we could hold a ratification plebiscite after our EU Membership is safe and the UK Union is defunct.

      We have it ALL! Victory right there! Right there within our grasp! Yet we’re about to throw it all away, concede to being Brexited, and “maybe” have a referendum if life is adequately grim outside Europe, and provided our London based superiors will allow us to have one. If that doesn’t make you sick, then I don’t know what will. Thank the SNP for that??? My head is in my hands.

      I feel like Cassandra. Blessed with a gift of foresight to see the future, but cursed that nobody will ever believe me.

      For the millionth time, we ARE Sovereign. All we need do is defend that sovereign principle and we are untouchable. We cannot be removed from Europe against our will, and if England chooses Brexit over the UK Union, the Treaty of Union no longer exists, and “they” are culpable for it’s collapse.

      We are led by fkg donkeys… with one or two notable exceptions. Joanna Cherry might yet save the day.

    120. Ken500 says:

      This is only SNP voters not the full electorate. It is a restricted sample. Non representative.

      The SNP is carrying out the electorate mandate. The task they have been given to the letter.
      They govern for the whole country no just SNP voters. The ridiculous PR system introduced by unionists support it.

      The mandate. 86% to stop Brexit. Stay in the EU. A massive high support for a GE 80% of SNP Representation. An IndyRef 52% to be held when it can be won.

      It is not SNP voters who decide SNP policy. It is SNP members with consultation. Then the voters vote for it if not. The tale is not waging the dog.

      An expensive amount of irrelevant dogma. Irrelevant personal views from SNP voters who have not control over policies but to vote for those presented. Or not.

    121. Ken500 says:

      They are carrying out the mandate to the letter as the electorate has voted and support it. Prioritised. Stop Brexit stay in the EU. A GE higher support. An Indy Ref 52% and rising. Exactly what is happening.

    122. Breeks says:

      Speaking in Edinburgh Tony Blair says it would be “foolish to deny” that a no deal Brexit would add a new dimension to the arguments for Scottish independence.

      … Err, yeah,… “Scottish Independence” being the new dimension.

    123. Proud Cybernat says:

      SNP / ScotGov blowing this, missing that. What utter BOLLOX.

      They have a plan and are sticking to it. How many here predicted the legal moves by Cherry/Moylon? How many here had even heard of Nobile Officium before Cherry petitioned the Inner House of CofS? How many here guessed that the SNP would bring forward a Bill in the Scottish Parliament to hold any referendum, including indyref – a very clever move that cannot be challenged in the UK Supreme Court?

      You’re all sitting behind yer keyboards bleating SNP Baaad cuz they’re doing nothing when what they’re doing is right in front of you. Just quit it and cut them sopme slack. They have a plan – that is as plain as day. They are step-by-step putting the pieces into position. National Investment Bank, ferry links to Europe etc.

      FFS let them get on with it and keep yer whinges under yer hair-pieces.

      THERE WILL BE A 2nd INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM – Nicola Sturgeon.

    124. Ghillie says:

      Ok Mr Smartypants (that could stick)

      YES to your first question.

      But I think I would have to respond ‘don’t know’ to your second question.

      It is a particularly sour option and any IndyScot who voted Remain, and has morals, would be tortured with such a stinky choice.

      I would want to respond with : ‘That is not acceptable. I prefer another way is found.’

      As an SNP voter I want my party to behave with integrity.

      Scotland voted against Brexit and as I said before, that battle is currently being fought.

      Whatever the outcome with Brexit, Scotland IS moving steadily towards Independence.

      More and more folk are becoming aware of how Scottish interests, our chosen MPs and our population are treated with utter contempt in Westminster and more and more ARE turning to Indy.

      You are not here, much as you have been encouraged to come home by Wingers, and your chosen home is Bath, so you will not be experiencing what we are all talking about – the anecdotes of neighbours and family (distant family in my case – me and mine grew up Indy minded) now changing their minds and being fervently keen for Scotland to be Independent.

      There is a real change in the atmosphere now whenever politics and Independence is raised – from my local shops to formal dinners.

      And yes, it does jangle with me when you are patronising and undermining about the Scottish National Party.

      Your favoured party, the Liberal Democrats don’t impress me much. But I accept you don’t have much by way of decent choice in Bath. I’m certainly not going to be mean about your voting choice.

      I am glad I wasn’t put on the spot trying to give truthful answers to this poll.

      But these are questions that I guess you want answered and it is your poll so that’s fine =)

    125. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cirsium @ 16:59,

      Sorry, but I don’t buy yet another round of laborious “creeping gradualism” in the face of a unique opportunity. We have had enough persistent befuddlement of late for several lifetimes. There are times in life when you have to grab the main chance with both hands while it’s available. Whatever other weighty administrative matters have to be worked through on independence, Scotland already possesses all the requirements for full EU membership, and clearly has earned an enormous amount of goodwill with the EU (not least thanks to the efforts of the SG), so that opportunity is right there for the taking.

      All it would require is a brief amicable negotiation to settle the terms for membership, and if thought desirable, put those terms to an immediate plebiscite. No more mendacity and egregious distortions, just the plain facts, yes or no.

      Some things, if done right, don’t have to be difficult.

    126. Beflox says:

      So the SNP agree to help the Tories get Brexit done in return for an independence referendum… Brexit goes ahead, Scotland marginally votes no again. That’s the SNP finished. They just delivered Brexit – which Scotland rejected, and got nothing to offer their supporters. It makes no sense for them to do this….

    127. Dr Jim says:

      @Ken500

      How would you verify someone as a voter of anything, did they just say so, did they tick a box, did they swear on a stack of bibles, did they have Saltires painted on their coupons

      If a poll was presented that asked if you were say a Tory voter you might take part and fill the thing up with silly answers for a laugh, then somebody presents it as what Tory voters think

      Nobody can verify anybody’s intentions to do anything it’s Mystic Meg polling like many polls are

    128. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “These poll questions are so complicated most people won’t really have a clue what they voted for. This is just unnecessary trouble making and self promotion.”

      So you’re saying SNP voters are thick? I’m afraid I can’t agree with that.

    129. HandandShrimp says:

      To be honest 66% of SNP voters (rather than members) and 13% not sure is a higher level of optimism regarding an Indyref than I would have thought.

    130. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It is a particularly sour option and any IndyScot who voted Remain, and has morals, would be tortured with such a stinky choice.”

      Why? In so far as such a thing is ever possible, everyone gets what they want. Scotland, which voted Remain, gets given the explicit opportunity to Remain. England and Wales, who voted to Leave, get to Leave. Northern Ireland has its own escape clause available if it wants to exercise it. All three rUK nations (and Scotland if it chooses to stay in the UK) get a much much softer Brexit than is otherwise likely to happen.

      I honestly fail to see what’s so awful about that scenario. Presumably you’re concerned about English/Welsh Remainers, but what’s so “moral” about overriding the democratic choice those countries made of their own free will?

      How would you feel if Scotland voted 52-48 Yes in 2014, then “concerned” Unionists in England and Wales had sought to override the result because they thought it was for our own good? Pretty furious, right? So why is it okay for us to do that to them?

    131. Proud Cybernat says:

      “How would you feel if Scotland voted 52-48 Yes in 2014, then “concerned” Unionists in England and Wales had sought to override the result because they thought it was for our own good? Pretty furious, right? So why is it okay for us to do that to them?”

      Why is it okay for England/Wales to drag Scotland/NI out of EU against our will?

    132. dadsarmy says:

      @Mist001
      No. It’s a FACT.

      No, it’s your opinion.

      Now, stop posting . . .

      If I had a pound for every time some Unionist has posted that over the last 23 years, I’d be as rich as Croessus. Whoever she is.

    133. Maria F says:

      @Breeks

      “I think they definitely are blowing the immediate Constitutional route to Independence”

      Please can you clarify which route that is, if:

      a) yes, A50 has been triggered but we are not out of the EU just yet
      b) Yes, everything is ready for our powers to be be stolen without our consent, but that only will happen the moment we step out of the EU
      c) Yes, England MPs suffocated our Claim of Right by denying us a brexit veto in theory. But in practice we are still exercising it by helping to stop and stall brexit- Ms Cherry is doing this very well.
      d) yes, English law has been used to trash Scots law when the Supreme Court turned a blind eye to the fact that the UK gov abused the UK parl and the HoL to unilaterally rewrite law and and to retrospectively declare our bill illegitimate. But that bill would not come into force yet.
      e) There is no mandate for dissolution of the treaty of union – there is only a mandate to conduct a referendum IF the uK takes us out of the EU against our will (this has not happened yet)

      So, the way I see all those seeds above have all already been sown, but for them to grow into something, Scotland being dragged out of the EU must happen first. So what constitutional route does that leave us, just now?

      The only one I can think of is that of taking the UK gov and the UK parliament to the ECJ to stop brexit altogether by declaring the triggering of A50 unconstitutional. Why? Because it was done without Scotland’s consent and in violation of our claim of Right – now, how do we prove that is a constitutional requirement?

      We need to demonstrate first that the Claim of Right is alive and kicking and functional in a court of law. Before that, we need to prove that Scots law is still functional in the UK constitutional matters. So far, Scots law has been proved to be alive and kicking in UK constitutional matters by the ruling against the UK gov regarding the reverting of A50 in the ECJ.
      It has also been proved to be relevant in constitutional matters against Johnson and the monarch and their prorogation of Parliament. If I am not mistaken, the Claim of right has been proved to be alive in the UK Parliament by a vote. It has also been proved to be functional in the Supreme court and the Scottish court ruling against prorogation. There has to be irrefutable proof that this will hold otherwise the whole thing will fall flat on its face.

      The way I see it, step by step, court case by court case the pieces of the puzzle are falling into piece.

      Yes, I do know the people of Scotland are sovereign. But you cannot simply walk into the ECJ and claim you are unless you have proved it before hand in domestic courts.

      So Breeks, which is the constitutional route you are thinking of? Is the one of declaring A50 unconstitutional? Because in the past, and if I am not mistaken, you were very much in favour of the SNP simply voting for Brexit in exchange for a concession. I have strongly disagreed with you in the past regarding this and still do because voting for Brexit or voting for a deal is in my view giving the consent of Scotland for brexit by the back door and that invalidates most of the delicate seeds that have been so carefully planted for the last 3 years and counting.

    134. dadsarmy says:

      @cynicalHighlander
      It’d be a laugh if the Queen said “On yer bike, you’re no getting it”.

    135. PacMan says:

      Another perspective to this debate.

      Continued austerity and the growing misery it brings is a godsend to independence. However, the Scottish government tries with it’s limited powers to mitigate austerity despite the fact it lessens the support for independence. Morally, it is the right thing to do and would be hypocritical for the SNP to stand by, do nothing and exploit the situation for their own ends.

      Brexit is going to happen and regardless of what kind it is, it is going to hurt a lot of people, especially the vulnerable. Again, it is a great opportunity to exploit the situation to future the independence cause but it is morally the right thing to do for the SNP to try and stop it.

      The other thing is that while the Raison D’être of the SNP is independence, it also at the moment has the responsibility of governing the population of Scotland. It simply can’t pursue the goal of independence if it interferes with it’s role of governing the people of Scotland.

      I know it is frustrating especially after Saturday with the Edinburgh march but we have to face the facts that in this particular situation which is looking to be the most realistic time to get independence in a long time that we are in little control of events and have little influence to shape them.

      Brexit isn’t going to end in the 31th October, whether it is a hard Brexit, a soft one or an extension. It is going to go on and on and the fall out of it is going to felt for years to come. At this present time, this may feel like the best opportunity to push for independence but IMHO, events are going to spiral out of control for the establishment and their grip will be severely reduced.

      If the SNP Scottish government can come out of this present crisis with its reputation enhanced with showing responsibility and leadership then it will have a bigger say in events caused by the greater chaos that Brexit will bring in the coming months. When that happens, we can more confidently call for independence.

    136. auld highlander says:

      Firstly I am not a member of the snp but if there was an election tomorrow they would get my vote and they will get a yes for indyref2 when it comes off, you can thank that slimy outfit at pacific quay for that.

      At the moment we have no other way of gaining our freedom so we have to put our trust in the snp for now and I believe that they have to be seen to be making every effort to stay in the eu. None of on here know what the snp plan is so we have to sit and bite our nails for now.

      Does a general reveal his plan to the enemy? No way.

      At the weekend I was way way down south and was chatting an ordinary hard working woman who is horrified at the way that balding boris has lied to the county. She is equally concerned that we leave the uk. Another guy I spoke to is terrified of his beloved union breaking up and from these two brief conversations it was easy to see that they are absolutely shitting themselves.

    137. Dan says:

      Apologies for reposting this link again to an interesting comment trail btl from last year.
      Can’t help thinking aspects of the recent court cases are relevant in some way to what’s being discussed.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/serving-the-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-2408091

    138. Terry callachan says:

      This is interesting ,how England in general , MP,s in Westminster and the BBC often when referring to Britain would say England and that was during the 1940,s

      https://lenathehyena.wordpress.com/2018/09/30/england-expects-so-jump-scotland-give-us-your-girls/

    139. galamcennalath says:

      Obvious thought.

      If this is how Johnson carries out international negotiations and diplomacy when the EU27 are friends and partners, can you imagine how it will go after a ‘no deal’ Brexit?

      All the same issues will be on the table as requiring solutions before trade talks will be contemplated. Will it be easier then? How could it be? If Johnson and chums are involved the chaos and uncertainty will go on for years and years.

      The US won’t sign up to the Brexiteers’ fabled trade deal if it compromises the GFA.

      The UK will be at the mercy of trade predators like India. ( payback is a bitch )

      Scotland MUST head off on a different direction.

    140. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why is it okay for England/Wales to drag Scotland/NI out of EU against our will?”

      It isn’t, obviously. Which is why I’m suggesting a practical and sensible way to avoid it.

    141. RM says:

      Apart from a few people that I know everybody regards themselves as Scottish not British, we have our own Scottish sports teams our own legal system, our own unique character, our beautiful country the only thing we’re missing is the pride that other Independent countries have ours is slowly being taken away from us, we need to get Scotland Independent shortly before we’re trapped.

    142. The Scottish people are sovereign, the English Parliament is sovereign, agreed between the two countries in 1689. Incorporated into the Treaty of Union in 1706. upheld by the Supreme Court.

    143. Colin Alexander says:

      Maria F said: “There is no mandate for dissolution of the treaty of union – there is only a mandate to conduct a referendum IF the uK takes us out of the EU against our will (this has not happened yet)”.

      No exactly true, in my opinion.

      The mandate is:”being taken” NOT, has been taken out of the EU.

      Thus the indyref mandate was activated by UK Parliament’s vote to trigger Article 50.

      Hence, the FM asked Theresa May for talks on an Indyref and got ignored.

    144. Terry callachan says:

      Proud cybernat…

      YOU CANNOT COMPARE (a) with (b)

      ( a )
      Scotland on its own as an individual country having a Scottish independence referendum and voting for independence 52-48 and then being told by England and Wales who were not part of the referendum vote that for Scotland’s own good the referendum result was being overturned

      ( b )
      England and Wales as part of a UK wide brexit vote being told by Scotland who were also part of that same UK wide brexit vote
      That Scotland has decided for the good of the people of England and Wales that even though a majority of people in England and Wales voted for brexit , they will not get brexit , because Scotland has decided it is not good for them

      The brexit referendum was NOT four individual referendums giving each country a choice

      There was one referendum one vote count for the four countries Scotland England wales NI
      All votes were lumped together
      Brexiters won
      Yes we know that most people,in Scotland and NI voted remain but that matters not in the brexit referendum rule book because it was one UK brexit referendum not four separate brexit referendums

      As with any other referendum or election you can break down the figures to show who voted for what but it’s the overall figure that counts

      The brexit referendum was a UK referendum

    145. Republicofscotland says:

      Jeez oh the unionist tv channels in Scotland STV news, BBC Scotland, giving yet again, the monster Tony Blair airtime to spout out his fears that the union could be coming to an end.

      Does anyone give a flying f#ck what Blair thinks.

    146. Proud Cybernat says:

      “It isn’t, obviously. Which is why I’m suggesting a practical and sensible way to avoid it.”

      This here was, imho, your best attempt to give everyone in UK what the voted for:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/

      What don’t really get is why no senior politician picked it uo and ran with it. It is THE best solution to this whole mess.

    147. Colin mccartney says:

      This is getting fucking tedious, I’m out of here until the Rev “ I’m always right” gets a grip.
      Fuckity bye

    148. Dan says:

      @Terry callachan at 6.41pm

      Yeah, but what with all the dark money interference and bullshit stuck on the side of buses to obtain that result, you don’t think it might be considered to be null and void or worthy of objecting to the outcome?

      https://twitter.com/GusTheFox/status/1108739432734224384

    149. Hamish100 says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      8 October, 2019 at 2:06 pm
      “I think Stu your judgement is cloudy at the moment. Are you are against the EU? To hold that opinion is fine but I think you need to agree that most Independence voters (at this point in time) believe in Scotland being in the EU.”

      Oh Jesus fuck. THE ONLY VIABLE WAY TO KEEP SCOTLAND IN THE EU IS BY WINNING INDEPENDENCE.

      As a member of Christians for Independence your regular profanity is not unusual though rather sad. If you have no argument at least keep your foul language to yourself “Rev”.

      As for wanting Independence I have worked for that in my own small way while you were still to be invented/ created (take your pick).

      Still I wonder if you are so brave as to use a similar profanity with other well known “deities” whether you hold a belief or not. I suspect we know the answer.

    150. Sinky says:

      Can’t defend some of the spending but BBC milking Glasgow Lord Provost’s £8000 on clothes and shoes but fail to mention that it was spent over two years and £2000 under the permissable allowance.

      Contrast the coverage with Steven Purcell’s fall from grace.

    151. Clydebuilt says:

      Aye its important to find out what SNP voters are thinking. What benefit comes from making this information available to Unionists

      Rev. Some of your tweets could be headlines in Unionist rags. FFS.

      What is to be gained by holding a referendum before the full effects of Brexit are experienced by voters. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are correct in doing everything they can to stop Brexit. The threat of hard border between Scotland and England would be a central argument used against an Independent Scotland during Indy Ref2

      This site is putting too much effort in causing divisions in the Independence ranks at a time when public opinion is about to shift our way.

    152. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Yes we know that most people,in Scotland and NI voted remain but that matters not in the brexit referendum rule book because it was one UK brexit referendum not four separate brexit referendums”

      It matters not. The FACT of the matter is that the UK is NOT A COUNTRY but a bipartite UNION of two kingdoms/countries brought together under an international Treaty. There’s no getting away from that immutable fact. We are countries in a Union. One country doesn’t get to boss the other around just because it has a bigger population. We’re equals. Scotland has rights of equality in this ‘union’. And if our partner in this union thinks they can usurp our rights then we’ll have something to say about it.

      Oh and funny how it’s never a UK-wide vote at a GE whenever it looks like the SNP will do well and perhaps go into coalition with Labour. Oh no. Then the good folks down south don’t see a GE as a UK-wide vote for a UK parliament because all you ever hear then is that they will never put up with the (Scottish) tail wagging the (English) dog.

      Aye – it’s only a UK-wide votes when it suits.

      But it’s not and never has been. The reason no one down south has ever cottoned onto that fact is because for over 300 years we’ve been sending Scottish Unionist MPs to WM who wouldn’t say “boo” to anyone, kept their gobs shut, trousered a healthy reward and allowed WM to trash Scotland’s rights in this ‘union’.

      Not so much these days with the SNP now, for the first time in 300 years, actually giving Scotland its voice in this ‘union’ and standing up for our rights in this ‘union’. And they do not like hearing that down there. It has come as a real shock to many down there to learn that they are actually in a bloody union and that being so has implications. Like we won’t be told what to do as a country when our partner country votes a different way in a multi-national referendum. Well – they won’t be hearing it for too much longer, they’ll be glad to know.

      Cuz we’re off in Autumn 2020.

    153. thomas says:

      Govan lorry driver goes into one of londons top brothels , slaps £500 quid on the table , and says to the madam

      “Gie me yer ugliest wummin and a burnt chop hen!”

      The madam says “but sir” For that money , you could have our lovelist woman and a fine meal!”

      Lorry driver says” am no horny hen. Am homesick!”

    154. ahundredthidiot says:

      ooooh, everyone’s so testy!

      Seems we can shout and scream at the Lord in the sky for our predicament – or we can put the bullet in the horses head.

      England is aflame and we are looking at the rear fire exit and remain rooted to the spot by our own indecision.

      If SNP declared Indyref2 now the result from England would be a massive FUCK OFF SCOTLAND – That would be worth it’s weight in gold as far as No voters are concerned.

      Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth – throw a saddle on it!

    155. RM says:

      Proud Cybernat, hope the Scottish Government is listening to you.

    156. ahundredthidiot says:

      I have two horses btw……

    157. Maria F says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      8 October, 2019 at 6:38 pm

      “The mandate is:”being taken” NOT, has been taken out of the EU”

      Can you be certain at this moment in time that the UK is leaving the EU? Could you be certain on the 31st of March?
      Actually, even at risk of being pedantic, the mandate is for a material change in circumstances. Have the circumstances changed yet?

      I think the answer to that is still No.

      “Thus the indyref mandate was activated by UK Parliament’s vote to trigger Article 50”

      Not quite. Remember that the UK parliament still retains the power to unilateraly revoke A50 at any time it wants before the UK exits the EU. And this is something we know not thanks to England MPs, not thanks to the UK gov but thanks to the effort, persistence and determination of 6 Scottish politicians.

      “Hence, the FM asked Theresa May for talks on an Indyref and got ignored”

      On that I do indeed agree with you. But the reality I can see is that so far, nor May nor Johnson have had the backbone to issue an official, written, formal response to our FM’s official, written, formal request for a section 30 order. So far, what we have had were informal and unofficial verbal utterances through the megaphone of the biased MSM. You have to wonder why.

    158. Essexexile says:

      Maria F @7.20pm

      Maybe it’s because nobody has really pushed the question since asking it 30 odd months ago and WM thinks ‘Well, we’re not going to mention it if you don’t’.

    159. dadsarmy says:

      And if you don’t like those horses, I have others …

    160. Terry callachan says:

      Dan… Oh I do absolutely agree that brexit was won with lies and I do absolutely think it is a great reason for Scotland leaving the UK

      The UK is corrupt

    161. velofello says:

      The Westminster Bubble participants repeatedly declare that the UK voted to leave the EU and this must be honoured. The Bubble ignores the reality that England voted to leave, and Scotland – in an existing treaty with England, voted to remain.

      So, arguably, the joint decision of England and Scotland to join the EU some 40 years back is being overturned. Seems reasonable to me that the “joint” decision to enter into a treaty with England needs to be also be overturned to honour the democratic wishes of England to leave the EU, and Scotland’s people democratic wish to remain in the EU.

      The SNP needs to drop this S30 referendum permission nonsense.

    162. Maria F says:

      Essexexile says:
      8 October, 2019 at 7:31 pm
      Maria F @7.20pm

      “Maybe it’s because nobody has really pushed the question since asking it 30 odd months ago and WM thinks ‘Well, we’re not going to mention it if you don’t’”

      Maybe. I just happen to think they simply cannot deny it.

      a) because if the UK is a union of equals as result of an international political agreement, ie the Treaty of Union, Scotland does not need the section 30 order at all nor consent from Westminster or England MPs

      b) because if the UK is not a functioning political union as such but rather a concoction where Scotland has somewhat became a dominion of the Kingdom of England, then the decolonisation charter of the UN, of which the UK is a signatory, kicks in and in line with that, Westminster MUST give all the powers required for the plebiscite to take place, without conditions or reservations and in accordance with the wishes of the people in the dominion – the people of Scotland has already given a mandate for such plebiscite not once, but 3 times.

      I think the English establishment is seriously bricking it now and they are simply exploiting their propaganda machine in a desperate attempt to discourage people.

    163. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin mccartney @6:49

      before you fuckity bye, can you show me where he has been wrong?

    164. Terry callachan says:

      Proud cybernat..
      Hey I agree with the sentiment of all you say

      The sorry sad truth is that most of us went into the brexit referendum thinking remain would win easily and it wasn’t until well after we lost that we found out the possibilities of no deal brexit and all the lies that had been told to secure the brexit result

      I agree with Mr Campbell
      It’s not right for us in Scotland to try and overturn the majority vote for brexit
      We should just leave the UK and rejoin the EU

    165. Lenny Hartley says:

      Hamish 100 you Believers in talking snakes are arrogant fuckers , how dare you tell the owner of this site what he can and cannot say.

    166. Bob Mack says:

      Imagine starting a website to encourage people to think about politics in all spheres and finding out they end up attacking you becsuse you had the nerve to attack their own party.

      Its really funny. A guy who even wants to enter politics to push an indy agenda harder than the SNP are doing.

      Rev, In all sincerity,I admire your courage. Standing against all the rubbish and threats thrown by the unthinking SNP devotees cannot be easy.

      I see you have lost several followers today.Good riddance.You owe them nothing. When they ever need Wee Blue Books where will they go then.

      I know where your heart lies Stu. Its written on these pages over the years for all to see. They choose not to. They choose dumb ignorance over unpleasant fact. Thats not your fault.

    167. Terry says:

      Breaks. You are right in my opinion. As is mr peffers. We don’t ask permission. We have a mandate. We tell Westminster to action another section 30 order. Dare they say no then it’s first Indy majority at Westminster or holyrood – simples. As Craig Murray says independence rests on recognition by other countries. That should do it. It’s not so much gaining independence. It’s more like ending a union that isn’t working.

    168. Terry callachan says:

      This report about the cosy corrupt links between the Labour Party , BBC , Glasgow university and Westminster is eye opening

      Once Scotland is independent we should hold these people to account unless they decide to leave Scotland permanently

      https://lenathehyena.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/oh-what-a-tangled-web-we-weave-when-first-we-practice-to-deceive-bbc-scotland-and-the-labour-party/

    169. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Mist001 at 4:48 pm.

      You typed,
      “Out of all that, I challenge YOU and that website that you posted, to show me and everyone else, one single document, signature, contract or indeed, any shred of evidence anywhere that specifically states that Scotland is a member of the EU.”

      I believe the point is that Scots are currently EU citizens. That EU citizenship is planned to be taken from us by English nationalists.

      Understand now?

    170. Ken500 says:

      The Daily Rag big scoop. The Daily Rag spends money on it’s employees pants and it is still pants. They get plenty of expense allowances tax free for rubbish. Recycled nonsense.

    171. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@7.47pm

      Now I know you are not referring to me Bob when you say these words:

      “they choose dumb ignorance over unpleasant fact”

      As some who reconsiders when new facts become available what are these facts you refer to.

    172. ahundredthidiot says:

      Seems the cowardly call to digital arms has been answered…..and so the deflection starts….try to stay focused on the piece folks.

    173. Bob Mack says:

      The facts are that the Revs mission is to challenge ALL political party activity. If you dont agree then fine, but could you direct me to the part of this site which states;
      EXCEPT THE SNP

    174. Dr Jim says:

      If folk are going to be asked to vote for a Wings party then are they not entitled to pose questions of its potential leader, or indeed challenge him as much as he is challenging the SNP

      What’s good for one etc

    175. Liz g says:

      Well I for one am glad the Rev is sayin somethin…
      Almost everyone I’ve spoken to in the last 4 or 5 months has been sayin the same thing.
      They want Nicola to move,they’re concerned that the chance will slip past and, as the Edinburgh Gathering demonstrated the Indy movement is good to go.
      So well done Rev…. Once again you’ve stepped up and are taking all sorts of shit fur it.

      I’d say to everyone,especially SNP members… Do you think the SNP leaders should be left in the dark about how many people are actually feeling?
      Should they carry on thinking that they have a “Labour type” loyalty?….
      Because they don’t…..
      And nor should they!
      The Scottish Electorate are far more educated about politics now and that type of blind loyalty is never coming back.
      They are also scared,scared about Brexit,scared of the Westminster Government and mostly scared that they’ll not get the chance to even try to leave this shithole Union.
      A fear which seems to be turning into “if Nicola is no part of the solution she’s part of the problem”.
      Nicola needs to know that.
      If not here then where?
      If not Wings then Who?

      Who exactly is going to let them know ?
      And before anyone details how the branches are the forum to communicate on….
      Let me tell ya it’s no working.
      I don’t know if it’s just the Party is struggling with such a large membership arriving so quickly.
      Or if they are so very wary of the British state manipulating that membership. But they run such a tight ship their member’s as far as I can tell are finding it hard to communicate their concerns….. Don’t argue it here … Try it for you see how far ye get..

      So that leaves us with what?…. The same route we’ve had for the last few years now…. Wings…..
      Who hasn’t changed at all as far as I can see…
      He’s still telling it like it is and this time it’s a message the SNP need to know.

      So just in case nobody ever says it…Thanks Rev.

      It’s also something the wider Yes movement need to hear.
      We’ve worked for years now for independence and if the SNP are going to let us down …. We best get to know and deal with it fast… I believe this is also known as having a plan B.
      Aren’t we lucky we’ve a place to explore that on if we had to?

    176. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Aw, c’mon. Read the blurb at the link.

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

      Then help, if you can…

    177. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      After all, he is a Winger, is Tartanpigsy.

    178. Big Jock says:

      Something to bear in mind. Nicola still hasn’t requested a section 30. That is planned for December.

      What if we crash out on Halloween. Is she going to wait 2 months to act?

    179. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim,

      Your not just challenging him though are you.This is becoming a manhunt because he wil! not bow down to a party doctrine,with which he cannot agree.

      Are you unaware of the pressure he is being put under? Today for the first time I saw him swear on this blog, Something he never does. Twitter yes. This blog no.

      Stu needs a long break away from here. It is taking its toll on him inevitably.On our behalf.

    180. Mist001 says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      I agree totally, 100% that Scots are currently EU citizens. There’s nothing to argue about there but Scots being EU citizens is different from Scotland being a member of the EU, as I’ve intimated previously.

      Scotland is not, and never has been a member of the EU. Neither has England, Wales nor NI. The whole entity known as the UK IS the member state and that’s why all treaties, agreements and accords apply across the board to all four individual nations making up the UK and why Scots are considered to be EU citizens. Each individual part of the UK doesn’t have separate agreements with the EU.

      HTH.

    181. Mist001 says:

      BTW, Johnson has just prorogued Parliament again! So much for the court judgements!

      And nobody thinks this guy will close down Holyrood as soon as he gets the chance??

      WAKE UP, FFS!!

    182. jockmcx says:

      This reminds me of that episode of bill & ben,when the
      gardener left a big jobby in the garden before he went for
      his tea,and bill and ben thought it was a tortoise!

      Or maybe it’s just a dream.

    183. dadsarmy says:

      http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/3_2_1978.pdf

      “Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties 1978”

    184. dadsarmy says:

      Oh, HTH 😉

    185. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      HTH?
      Pardon my ignoramousness…

    186. Paul says:

      What a meaningless poll and in any case 21% isn’t a Third or in other words even allowing for your arithmetic 2 Thirds are convinced eh a percentage that any Political Party would be more than happy to achieve for any political policy! Keep going the way you are and more than 2 Thirds of the people that regularly read your blog won’t any longer!

    187. Bob Mack says:

      @Paul,

      Why are you here tben? Goodbye.

    188. Essexexile says:

      What she said was sad
      But then, all the rejection she’s had
      To pretend to be happy
      Could only be idiocy

      Chin up Rev. We all think you’re fab.

    189. SilverDarling says:

      IF the Rev decides to run as a candidate or lead a party he will be the one of the most scrutinised candidates ever. God help him – I could not put myself through it.

      As the poll shows there is no one voice for the SNP voters which is evidenced here daily – and why should there be? The articles are written to provoke comment and if the BTL comments are all singing the same song then that is just plain weird.

      I cannot understand why difference of opinion is thought of as a bad thing – I even saw that we were embarrassing because all the internet neighbours could see what was going on!

      The SNP members discuss their stuff at their meetings etc and that is up to them but the rest of us need somewhere to vent frustration and ask questions. I don’t see that as harmful to anyone who is able defend their position.

      The SNP must be aware of the views, some of their office bearers used to post here regularly yet it is as if we, the SNP sometimes voter, don’t exist. I see on social media people being asked to engage and get on board with the INDY movement but is it only if you don’t ask awkward questions?

      I will still support the Rev until he decides this site isn’t worth it anymore which must be getting nearer and nearer.

      I’ll support the SNP until they give me enough reasons not to, like any other party.

    190. Ghillie says:

      Thankyou Maria F @ 5.58 pm, PacMan @ 5.59 pm, and auld highlander @ 6.02 pm, you explained that well =)

      Did someone say that great numptie has just prorouged Westminster again? Really?

    191. Thomas Dunlop says:

      No, no, no and no again. Never trust the tories on anything. That should be the first rule of British politics.

      TBH, the way things are going, UDI , has merits going for it. It can’t be worse than a no deal Brexit.

    192. Famous15 says:

      CONTEXT is everything in this story.

      Turning to another “story” regarding the Lord Provost of Glasgow buying tights etc the story would only have balance if we knew who else managed to underspend their allowance by £2,000 pounds.Tell us what other Provosts and Mayors have for expenses and what they claimed and then I will know if she was good bad or indifferent.

      Personally I would not wish my Provost to greet industrial investors with a run in her stockings. They might think we were too poor to partner with us.

    193. dadsarmy says:

      @BDTT
      HTH – Hope That Helps

      Can be used genuinely, but is often used sarcastically, smugly, nastily or something. It often goes with HAND – Have A Nice Day.

      So like:

      Here’s my smart-arse answer, HTH, HAND.

    194. Mist001 says:

      Moi? Sarcastic??? No way, Pedro.

    195. William Habib Steele says:

      I really don’t understand why the First Minister and Mandarins of the British, “Scottish National Party” would put their trust in any Unionist Paarty, nor why they claim that a S30 Order is required for a legal referendum. We have no need of a Section 30 Order. We don’t even need a referendum. An act of the Scottish Parliament resiling the Treaty of Union and revoking the Act of Union is all that it required. Of course it should be followed by a confirmatory referendum. Why the British, “Scottish National Party” insist on following English law seems very strange. The claim that the EU require a country establishing independence to submit to the law of the Country from which it wants to become independent seems very strange in the light of International Law and the views of the English government of the UK, which follow.

      The following is “… the legal opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom, as submitted to the International Court of Justice in the Kosovo case. The International Court of Justice endorsed this view, so it is both established law and the opinion of the British Government that the Scottish Government has the right to declare Independence without the agreement or permission of London and completely irrespective of the London Supreme Court.”

      “The Independence of a country is not a matter of domestic law it is a matter of international law. The right of the Scottish Parliament to declare Independence may not be restricted by UK domestic law or by purported limitations on the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The legal position is set out very clearly here:

      5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of
      the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
      of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor
      States law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.

      5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration
      of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
      fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of
      the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be
      predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in
      which the secession is occurring.

      5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim
      independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international
      law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional
      authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
      institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond
      the scope of already conferred power.” (Craig Murray)

    196. Habib Steele says:

      I really don’t understand why the First Minister and Mandarins of the British, “Scottish National Party” would put their trust in any Unionist Party, nor why they claim that a S30 Order is required for a legal referendum. We have no need of a Section 30 Order. We don’t even need a referendum. An act of the Scottish Parliament resiling the Treaty of Union and revoking the Act of Union is all that it required. Of course it should be followed by a confirmatory referendum. Why the British, “Scottish National Party” insist on following English law seems very strange. The claim that the EU require a country establishing independence to submit to the law of the Country from which it wants to become independent seems very strange in the light of International Law and the views of the English government of the UK, which follow.

      The following is “… the legal opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom, as submitted to the International Court of Justice in the Kosovo case. The International Court of Justice endorsed this view, so it is both established law and the opinion of the British Government that the Scottish Government has the right to declare Independence without the agreement or permission of London and completely irrespective of the London Supreme Court.”

      “The Independence of a country is not a matter of domestic law it is a matter of international law. The right of the Scottish Parliament to declare Independence may not be restricted by UK domestic law or by purported limitations on the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The legal position is set out very clearly here:

      5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of
      the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
      of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor
      States law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.

      5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration
      of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
      fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of
      the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be
      predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in
      which the secession is occurring.

      5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim
      independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international
      law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional
      authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
      institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond
      the scope of already conferred power.” (Craig Murray)

    197. McDuff says:

      12.37
      So Nicola`s mandate is to stop Brexit and keep us in the EU. So NS succeeds in keeping us in the EU and that would be as us still in the UK.
      So what`s the campaign for independence now that Brexit is stopped.
      NS should have been talking up an independent Scotland`s wealth, its economy, its armed forces ,pensions its potential and much more. Why have these basics of an independent country been kept hidden from potential voters who need convincing.
      There is no strategy or passion coming from the SNP and unfortunately its confused wooly thinking followers like yourself that hinder the cause of independence and it staggers me that there are posters on here that are attacking the rev who has given more heart to the cause than anyone in the Scottish government.

      Get a grip.

    198. Colin Alexander says:

      Doing a deal with the Tories is an even worse idea than the SNP’s offers to do deals with Labour for an s30.

      I’m surprised at Stu with this suggestion of a deal with the Tories, especially when he has clinically exposed how pathologically corrupt and dishonest all the Unionist parties are.

      Want to read my new book I am composing? Free preview here:

      The Idiots guide to Scottish independence:

      Page 1: Never trust a Tory.

      Page 2: Never trust Labour

      Page 3 Never trust the LibDems

      Page 4 Never trust a UK Govt or the UK state.

      Page 5 Never trust the Queen

      Page 6 Just because the SNP say it, don’t assume it’s the truth.

      Page 7 The Scottish Greens are the Scottish Greens, enough said there.

    199. Stu, for the love of all that is Holy, your interpretation of the answer to the first question was total rubbish

      There is no way that all SNP voters can know if Nicola and the SNP can pull off their mandate before 2021 in the face of objurgate rejection by the 3 English Tory parties.

      This does NOT imply they think Nicola or the SNP are at fault – quite the opposite

      Regarding the second question – I asked you yesterday if you wanted the SNP to be the ‘handmaid of Brexit’ and you did not reply – but now it appears you actually think this is a good idea

      You actually feel that most Scottish people would think that the SNP supporting the Tories in taking the UK out of the EU would win widespread support in Scotland

      I will re-think the idea for 24 hours- but my first reaction is to doubt your sanity

    200. Essexexile says:

      Colin Alexander @10.07pm
      A Tory will lie to your face in full knowledge that they’ll go back on their word. Labour (specifically a Corbynite) will give you a solemn promise and then be talked out of delivering on it by shouty lefties and Union types. A Lib Dem will nod along with sincerity at your request and then forget you even exist as soon as they smell a whiff of power (unfortunately that is Clegg’s legacy).
      But what to do?
      A deal must be struck somewhere for Scotland’s future. Bullets must be bitten. Once a ref has been held, even if with tacit WM agreement, it should have weight in the volatility of international politics. If Merkel or Macron unofficially ratified the result that would tip the balance I’m sure.
      Scotland would be free.

    201. Heart of Galloway says:

      Peston on ITV right now. I quote: “Sources close to Boris Johnson are still telling me that even if he is forced, or if a proxy for him is forced to write a letter asking for a delay he will of course send a second letter saying I don’t really mean it.”

      That’s verbatim. And he is not alone in reporting on Perfidious Albion’s sordid unceasingly blatant modus operandi.

      Any notion of trusting these British nationalist bastirts on ANYTHING – let alone some kind of constitutional swap shop deal is FUCKING NUTS.

      Watch this space – Section 30 is a complete red herring. Agreement may be sought but the real deal is the Referendums (Scotland) Bill. IndyRef 2April-September next year. Period.

    202. Bob Mack says:

      @Cadogan Enright.

      Wbat part of “Do you believe” in question1 is hard to interpret? what other party apart from the SNP did they think would deliver that referendum. Yet you say it is not a judgement on the SNP or Nicola.

      You seem to be capable of juggling facts to suit yourself so why cant Stu?

    203. dadsarmy says:

      @Heart of Galloway
      As I understand it, even the undertaking presented to the Court of Session is enough to hold him in contempt if he does send a second letter, as the undertaking said he wouldn’t frustrate the Benn Act. SDo he’d have to act in good faith, and accept the 3 month extension if offered.

      Sources close to him will continue to blow hot air all over the place, but it seems to be meaningless. But the BBC aren;t reporting that properly of course.

      Having said that, I hope tomorrow at 11am gives us the judgement we want, at least the nobile offoicum, and preferable the order, even if suspended till after the 19th. And you may be right about the S30, it’s possible we’re surrounded by a shoal of red herrings – which one to fish for eh!

    204. alba says:

      @Liz g 8:20 pm

      “Well I for one am glad the Rev is sayin somethin…Aren’t we lucky we’ve a place to explore that on if we had to?”

      Agreed on all of your points – could not have put them better if my life depended on it!

      (which is somewhat ironic, for that may yet come to pass)

    205. @Bob Mack,

      `Today for the first time I saw him swear on this blog, Something he never does.`

      i`m sure he has told a few posters to `fuck right off`,

      anyhoo yadayadayada just sayin,

      SNP Annual National Conference 2019 (capacity 12500)
      Event
      Dates: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 – Tue, 15 Oct 2019,

      from sunny Aberdeen,

      should be awesome,

      canny wait.

    206. Mist001 says:

      Johnson will resign after the Queens Speech next week. The Benn Bill cannot be enacted without a PM and Johnson won’t be forced to seek an extension, exactly as he’s said throughout the whole thing.

      If what I’ve been reading is true, then a temporary PM will have to be installed and they’ll go and get the extension instead of Johnson. HYaving said that, it’s hard for me seeing the EU agreeing to any further extension. The UK has had three years to sort this out and numerous attempts to get a deal and failed, so what use is another extension?

      A general election will have to be called at some point which is when Johnson will make his great comeback on a ‘No Deal’ ticket.

      That is my prediction, an ‘opinion’, if you will.

      Notice that I haven’t mentioned the SNP once? That’s because I don’t think they have any plan and if they don’t have a plan, how the hell am I supposed to have one?

      🙂

    207. @Bob Mack 10.41

      read the first question above for yourself – it is labelled Q17

      The answers from the SNP voters in no way imply that they feel SNP is falling down on the job – they all know the SNP does not have a magic wand.

      Stu is wrong here

      If the SNP is blocked by the 3 English Try parties from Indyref2 – this cannot be laid at the feet of the SNP

      It would be really good if we had a website supporting Scottish Independence that was calling out the main stream media – this does not look like Wings any more

    208. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@8.08pm

      I guess that post was a reply to my query so thanks Bob. Obviously the site owner can write what he wants and change the objectives/ mission statement of his site any time he wants. I have no problem with that. Just as any reader/ poster can choose to modify their interest and support as they see fit.

      I was thinking more about facts that back up the proposition that the SNP are reneging on their commitment to hold Indyref2 before 2021 election.

    209. Colin mccartney says:

      Ahundredthidiot @ 7.43
      While I admire his ability to research and disseminate the unionist propaganda there are numerous failings in the revs makeup.
      Past failings on some sexuality items excluded, he has taken up the cause against one of Scotland’s languages and despite being shown by many to be misinformed has maintained an arrogance when questioned over it.
      Many of his “ I told you so” items are at best simply him taking one of the options opened up for examination and then made to be the one he was promoting.
      His Kez vendetta was sheer ego. I have given money over many years to wings for use in the cause of Indy, not for use in his legal battles which at best were a bit borderline, His website, his choice, but he is not on my donation list any longer.
      His twitter rants, which were slightly embarrassing, have now become off the scale and virtually a copy of some of the unionist ones he professes to abhor.
      And finally the wings party, another ego trip, and a non starter when you have limited personality, speaking abilities and very few of the general public actually know who you are. Living in a political bubble can be deceiving, and that applies to other bloggers as well.
      I too have had times when I feel not in total agreement with the snp, NATO being the main one. Those old timers who recognise my surname may know how much time and effort my family and I have put into the snp/Indy over decades, sometimes getting what we want and sometimes not, but as the vehicle to get us to our goal, especially where we are today, there is no other option. When we get there, hopefully soon, then that is the time to promote our individual ideas on what a new scotland should aspire to. Thank you for reading this.

    210. dadsarmy says:

      OT
      Scotland Tonight.
      A man – Paul Hutcheon – saying blah blah about a woman’s personal expenses, conclusion that maybe she should leave the gold chain and rolls royce.
      A woman – Laura Waddell (Scotsman) – making the point that not having an expense account could deter a working woman without much money – not a sackable offence.

      Turns out the shoes are made locally and/or for special needs, and the Harris tweed jackets in Glasgow or something. So – shopwindowing local produce which, by the way, fills the HMRC requirement for “marketing and advertising” for a business.

      Who’s this sensible woman, is she an Indy Supporter / SNP / neutral?

    211. following on from Stu’s idea . . . . .Nicola ‘phones Boris

      “Boris, I can understand how a majority of English people support Brexit and even a no-deal Brexit. But that is not the case up here”

      “I can make a deal for the SNP to vote with you to allow England and Wales to exit the EU so long as we can have a referendum on the same day to allow Scotland to become an independent Country within the EU. We would fight for the best deal possible for your eventual trade deal with us as an EU Country. We would continue to have a lots of trade with rUK”

      And Boris says . . . “yes Nicola, even though my precious Union is so important to me and the Conservative and Unionist Party – I understand what you are saying. Nicola you can rely on my good faith and this deal you propose is acceptable to me.”

      Looks totally plausible to me – unless they don’t do irony in Bath

    212. Essexexile says:

      Colin McCartney @11.06pm
      I certainly recognise your surname. Weren’t you, in fact, one of the founding members of Wings?

    213. Mark Fletcher says:

      Paul Hutcheon has obviously no experience of women. Is he some sort of puritanical virgin?

      23 pairs of shoes is restrained and modest. It’s not Imelda Marcos is it?

      I smell a strong whiff of that familiar scent – SNPbad.

    214. Bob Mack says:

      @Cadogan Enright,

      Anything is possible at this time. Boris is being hemmed into a corner re the extension. If the court decides to send the nobile officium should he not comply, he is beaten. I put nothing out of bounds as yet

    215. mike cassidy says:

      Ah, good to see old perfidious Albion get a mention.

      And here are its words of wisdom – 2019 style.

      https://twitter.com/Kishan_Devani/status/1180830312894537729

    216. Cubby says:

      Two Tribes Go to War

      Tribe 1 The SNP.

      The party that has brought Scottish independence from a niche political idea with little support to a majority for independence. The party of governance in the Scottish parliament for 12 years. The only political party that delivered in 312 years of Union a Scottish independence referendum. The party that has promised a second Scottish independence referendum in 2020 the 700 year anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Tribe 2 Wings

      A blogger who has made a massive contribution to the near miss Scottish independence referendum in 2014. A blogger who has contributed immensely to the education of Scots regarding the duplicity, lies and thieving of the Union since 2012. A blogger who has a tremendous track record in forecasting political events. This blogger now forecasts that the SNP will not deliver a Scottish independence referendum as promised by the SNP in 2020.

      Who to believe. Who to support.

      Personally, I want facts not beliefs.

      The SNP are preparing for independence and preparing for the referendum. Not conclusive evidence by any means.

      Wings provides no facts to support the assertion that Indyref2 will not happen in 2020. It does have be said that there is support for this point of view. This will of course be the case as the blogger has an excellent track record and a sound following.

    217. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin McCartney,

      Start your own blog. Doesnt take much. Ability to write.Skin of a rhino.Organisationa! nous.

      I dont think you would last a week.

    218. dadsarmy says:

      @Colin mccartney
      I too have had times when I feel not in total agreement with the snp, NATO being the main one.

      Mmm, I did fight the corner as a non-aligned for the SNP to change to full NATO from Partners for Peace, the whole of one Sunday back in 2012 btl on the Grun, so may be a little or more at fault for that as Sevvie had already picked up on it, and it became virtually impossible for the SNP not to go for the full NATO, else it would have screwed the Indy Ref portfolio on something of relatively little importance – defence.

      Angus Robertson was quick off the mark, all credit to him. Turned out when I researched thinking the SNP ill-informed on defence, he’d put in dozens maybe hundreds of written defence questions to the HoC, as one of the just 6 SNP MPs.

      A certain sneeky person told me to make my case – and I did.

      Days 🙂

    219. Golfnut says:

      @ Heart of Galloway.

      I am pretty sure Nicola added the caveat ‘ or earlier if required ‘, or words to that effect. Could be wrong, no I’m not.

    220. Colin mccartney says:

      Cheers bob Mack, I don’t waste my time reading the crap that you write either

    221. Chicmac says:

      As per my previous deleted post anyone who is happy with a PM who suspends parliament at will, is willing to disobey the law and who will refuse to leave office even if faced with a no confidence vote, has lost the plot.

    222. mike cassidy says:

      O me miserum!

      If only I’d paid more attention in the Latin class.

      Though Johnson’s pretentions to a public-school classical education probably makes Tusk’s barb even more biteworthy than it first seems.

      https://twitter.com/ThomasPride/status/1181606589045891072

    223. Colin mccartney says:

      Cheers bob Mack, I don’t waste my time reading what you write either

    224. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin McCartney,

      How did you know what I wrote then ? Stop floucing and piss off if your going

    225. dadsarmy says:

      @Colin mccartney
      I recognise the surname as well online, maybe family, starting with “W”.

      As far as Wings is concerned think about this. It all got very boring, moribund even, no vigour on a few blogs, nothing to talk about, an SiU “Yawn” indeed.

      Now it’s fair hoppping 🙂

      On this blog, and others too. Agree with much of it? No, but it ain’t half fun. And an eye-opener for the undecided too at this time of the game, as they are also conflicted – Brexit or Union or WTF?

      Stick around.

    226. mogabee says:

      Thank you Liz g I wholeheartedly agree. People are rightly depressed about the direction the SNP have been travelling for at least the last year and the fact that it’s impossible to get a reply to any email worries me a lot.

      To the few commenting here disparaging Stu, so brave of youse to not put your names forward.

    227. STU get back to the day job of exposing the media please

    228. dadsarmy says:

      The Lascelles Principles make this clear. The PM will advise the Queen of that and she must follow her Prime Minister’s advice. That’s how this country works.

      I get it. So basically speaking the Queen has to shout out “SILENCE YOU DOG”, setting the corgis on him, and while Boris is looking around wondering what’s going on and what on earth that corgi is doing to his leg, she says “And by the way, you’re so fired”.

      Then he’s not PM and can’t give her any advice not to fire him.

    229. Jimmock says:

      No need for a referendum. Tell Boris “separate Scotland and England now” We will help you give the people of England and Wales what they voted for.

    230. Hamish100 says:

      Lenny hartley

      Yir mammy must be proud of all yir big words yif learnt in P7. Are you brave enough to insult other faiths? Thought not!

    231. Hamish100 says:

      I think Quo Vadis applies to this site.
      Shame the wee BB was so good. Would the National take on the role?

    232. Jimmock says:

      Tell Boris “general election. We will support him in return for separation of England and Scotland. No referendum necessary. Guaranteed Tory majority in remainder UK.”

    233. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think Quo Vadis applies to this site.”

      Fuck off, then.

    234. HandandShrimp says:

      Read the Libby article in the Guardian re Blair’s speech. I’m mildly gobsmacked at Blair’s take on Scottish politics but his suggestion that Davidson’s exit leaves the centre ground open for Labour is remarkable. Apart from Davidson not being a centre ground figure the last thing Labour appear intent on is taking the centre ground. The party in the centre is the SNP which is why they are in office.

    235. defo says:

      Nicely timed 🙂
      Off to sleep with a smile on my coupon.

    236. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 19:03:

      Aye – it’s only a UK-wide votes when it suits.

      Damn right there.

      Hark back to the 2015 UKGE where the Tories went for poor hapless Miliband on the tendentious grounds that he might do a deal with the SNP (a legitimate party in the UK) and “England can’t possibly be ruled by the Scots”. He was forced to declare in turn that – oh, perish the very thought! – he would never be chums with the SNP.

      So much for being all together in this cosy “unitary” UK. Unitary just so long as we are never able to call the shots.

      As Orwell famously said (in another context): all are equal, but some are more equal than others.

    237. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “STU get back to the day job of exposing the media please”

      As Ivor Cutler so memorably put it to a heckler:

      “I don’t see any chains holding you down, sonny.”

    238. dadsarmy says:

      All ashore what’s going ashore you landlubbers, if you’re staying aboard the Black Pig me hearties get your trusty cutlass here, ten bob to you, the Capn don’t take no prisoners.

      Joe Walker

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta-Z_psXODw

    239. Northman says:

      As a Scandinavian I cannot fathom why the SNP leadership under NS get away with derailing the independence movement, for years, repeatedly.

      In short, i cannot fathom why Scotland isn’t independent yet. Had the SNP leadership rallied for independence these last years with the ongoing mismanagement by Westminster it is almost certain that Scotland would have been independent for quite a while now already.

      Instead SNP campaign against English independence from EU. Against the English vote, and against their wish. This makes little sense. Scotland can choose whatever membership status it wants with EU, independent from EU (as most nations in the world), independent but aligned (like the Swiss or perhaps Norway), or membership; as long as it decides its own course. The main reason Scotland may choose so freely is because Scotland is marvellous rich in resources. But also because the location and political climate favours it.

      SNP also attack and backstab those to manage to arrange 100.000+ peaceful citizen marches with the daft pretext that it should have been moved a few hours.

      SNP also attack and backstab and prevent people like Craig Murray from holding pro independence speeches, as this is deemed somehow wrong.

      SNP leadership even even effected the deranged attack on former leader (and actual independence supporter) Alex Salmond that were so bad I have seldom seen its like. I recommend reading the courts decision.

      The list goes on.

      The question is why?

    240. twathater says:

      @ Liz G Gonny no dae that , I find myself agreeing with your total sentiments again . and also agreeing with Bob Mack
      I have previously posted much the same on a previous post , it must be so demoralising and infuriating for the Rev to be accused of attempting to undermine our quest for independence by asking relevant questions of the SNP and Nicola

      The same people who possibly were congratulating him on his incisive forensic exposure of those dastardly brutish nationalists and corrupt MSM have now decided that it was all a ruse and really he secretly works for MI5 or is a 77th brigade squaddy

      TBH I never believed all the shit he posted against the brit nats and the MSM I think he was trying to con us , and all that legal pish about being arrested and having to suffer all the vilification and threats I think that’s made up with the collusion of his handlers

      Honestly if I were him and had to read the snidey comments about contributions and narcissism I would just say FUCK IT dae it yerselves am off ti find a cave tae lead a quiet life ah don’t need this pish , but instead this pain in the arse comes oot fighting EVERY day for us and oor independence , GET A FUCKING GRIP

    241. dadsarmy says:

      @twathater
      I never read the wbb, did my own research, all my own work. But a lot of people swore by it, and it seems to have changed a lot of people from NO to YES in Indy Ref 2 – and even after. The local SNP branch read Wings and it seemed to be popular in the SNP. There’s no doubt it helped greatly towards getting 56 SNP MPs in 2015. The media have used his research and stories. And it’s cleaned them up, with him looking over their shoulders, holding them to account. Remember Sep 2014? Wings helped keep people together, and the people helped keep the Rev from giving up too. And it’s been a focus for a fair few good guest writers.

      So yeah I agree, the Rev’s a sleeper, lazy b*td, time MI5 woke him up before it’s too late for the Union.

      HELLO PEOPLE DID YOUR BRAINS TURN TO MUSH?

    242. Blind Squirrel says:

      STU – I agree that this would have been the way to go. But I wouldn’t have advertised that we were looking for a deal. So does Wings know if this was put to Theresa May. I’m almost certain she wouldn’t have gone for it. As for making a deal with Boris, I wouldn’t because I don’t trust him. He would grant it and withdraw it. I’m afraid I cannot see a way out for us now.

    243. dadsarmy says:

      Indy Ref 1 – we haven’t had 2 yet, not due for a few weeks yet.

      Oh yeah, and how many crowdfunders did he push from these pages. 10%, 20%, 30% raised in the time limit minus a day or two, the other 90% in hours after a link and push from the Rev here.

      Ungrateful bastards.

    244. Breeks says:

      Can I ask any SNP person, or any Independence supporter at all, what harm would it too to our cause to consolidate a Scottish Constitutional Backstop, similar in principle to Ireland’s, but underpinning Scotland’s Sovereign will?

      The EU manifestly understands the principle of having a failsafe based upon obdurate legal principle. Why are they, and indeed us, being left to believe that the Good Friday Agreement has greater legal potency than Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, the Declaration of Arbroath and the Claim of Right as recently affirmed by Westminster?

      The only material difference is the Good Friday Agreement has the seal of International Recognition, while our Sovereignty does not, but should have! Westminster itself has acknowledged Scotland’s Claim of Right. Is this not inter-national recognition already acknowledged? Cannot we bind Europe to recognise what Westminster has itself recognised?

      Why would we NOT do this? We ARE Sovereign! For the love of God, register the protest with Europe and the European Court, formally dispute UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, see the dispute acknowledged internationally and the principle of law adopted, and then at least to some extent, we can all relax behind a Scottish Backstop… a permanent legal failsafe which cannot be overturned.

      I am utterly perplexed and bewildered why this even needs to be even proposed. What is wrong with us??? Why are we allowing Brexit to stumble toward its grotesque conclusion when we can extricate Scotland from this epic misadventure simply by playing the card of Constitutional Sovereignty?

      Why? Why? Why? But all we get is yet more enigmatic posturing which looks more and more ridiculous.

      We are not proposing to change reality, just have the existing Constitutional reality acknowledged in order to save our Nation from economic disaster and unlawful colonial subjugation. What game are we playing that prevents us doing this???

      The ONLY thing imperilled by demanding recognition of Scotland’s legal sovereignty is the damned Union we all want to see the end of, and that Union dies from mortal wounds suffered upon itself through the culpable incompetence of Westminster. We require nothing more than we already have; no referendum, no swing in the polls, nothing we don’t have already… except some leadership with the will to do it. Tell me I’m wrong.

    245. Ghillie says:

      Heart of Galloway,

      I do enjoy your posts 🙂

      Lifts my spirits =)

    246. ahundredthidiot says:

      colin mccartney

      I would suggest you echo how a lot of people would like to win, clean, honest, upfront, fair and most importantly, in line with your ‘principles’.

      It doesn’t work like that in real life – just look at what the Bruce had to do. of course, no one is suggesting bumping anyone off, but if you want something in life you have to take it – no one gives it to you.

      We are being presented with a golden opportunity (have been for several months) and tory haters are allowing their egos to get in the way. Literally my whole family are paying members of the SNP, I contribute to the loony lefty SNP MP who represents my area, simply because the SNP is the vehicle to independence – the other side of Indy I will likley be voting for a tory lite party which would occupy the centre ground, the Left cannot be allowed to destroy Scotland.

      What bothers me most though is this – the amount of spoilt little bastards who strop, moan and stomp off – just because they find disagreement amongst their own.

    247. RM says:

      Breeks at 5.07, that’s what lots of Independence supporters are thinking, is there something we’re not seeing or are the SNP government going to make a move when they think the times right, they should be showing their fighting for independence.

    248. Ken500 says:

      You are wrong

    249. Wee Alex says:

      Off topic.

      Just caught up with expenses scandal featuring Glasgow Lord Provost. Rather silly of her to make such a foolish claim. No matter its legality.

      What is wrong is the role of the Trade Unions, would they expose a Labour Councillor in the same way.

      Common sense would suggest there are more SNP supporters in unions than there are Labour.

      If you support the SNP and are a member, why put up with it. Take control of your union, withdraw from its political levy, or even resign.

      Unions are meant to represent its members.

    250. Ken500 says:

      Mass murderer Blair who caused all this mess should be in jail. Along with the unionists sycophant crooks. Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg Brown Johnston. They are all master criminals. They should all be in jail. They think they are above the Law, They break the Laws that they make, They caused all this mess. Then try to get away with it. Liars. Liars always get found out. Tax evading troughers. Still embezzling public funding.

    251. Terry callachan says:

      It’s interesting that the Scottish independence support can be split so easily on a subject such as are the SNP doing enough to make a Scottish independence referendum happen.

      It’s a nervy time for all of us

      We have never been as hopeful as we are now

      Primarily because we think brexit will help our cause one way or another

      I just want Scottish independence and I want it now or next best would be a date I can set my sights on but I do believe that until brexit actually happens the SNP will not make a move and I understand why.
      I think their tactics are sound, nerves of steel and knowledge of your opposition is crucial.

      I think SNP have both.

      I agree with wings that trying to stop brexit after the brexit result favoured the brexiters was a mistake by the SNP I think SNP should have sat back and watched it unfold and then held indyref but they didn’t, they have campaigned to reverse the brexit result without another vote , that in my opinion was an error by SNP but I do not have all the knowledge of the opposition that SNP have got , neither does wings although wings knowledge of it all dwarfs mine.

      I’m still inclined , so far, to stand by the SNP because there is no other party that can get us independence.
      I wish wings would do the same but you don’t get everything in life.

      Testing time.

    252. ahundredthidiot says:

      Ken500

      Ever get the impression you’re not completely focussed?

      People who are easily distracted never get anywhere.

      Some of us are in this to win.

    253. Ken500 says:

      £4000 a year within the limit. It could be cut back or recycled. From a budget of £1Billion+. How much did the unionists waste on other things. Illegal wars, tax evasion, no equal pay, PP1. The unionist claims are even worse.

      Swinson nappies. The £Million of undeclared EU monies. Swinson did not declare. Illegal. The Westminster expenses scandal. Trident. The unionist councillors oversea trips. The total unionist abuse of public monies. Brexit another unionist scandal. Wasting £Billions.

      Just another diversion.

    254. Ken500 says:

      Winning is what is important. Having an IndyRef when it can be won, Not jumping the gun. Losing two campaigns at once. The Campaigns have to be prioritised. That is what the electorate want. 86% Stop Brexit, stay in the EU. Another EURef. A GE coming soon, 80%+ support. Another IndyRef 52%. In that order. That is what the electorate want.

    255. Kangaroo says:

      I don’t know what you are all worried about, the SNP are playing this to perfection.

      Robert Peffers and Maria F are correct, just reread their posts and you should understand where the SNP are going on this. We cannot win by playing the Westminster game so the SNP are playing a “legal” game, That is they have chosen the battlefield carefully as did “The Bruce”. As Breeks continually suggests, we must assert our Constitutional rights. Well we are and have been, that is the purpose and outcome of the various legal cases being contested. Once Brexit occurs we will assert our rights in full, but sometimes it is the oppositions move, in this case Boris and the Tories have to decide what to do next. They seem intent on “No-deal Brexit”, I think this will backfire big-time when Scotland asserts her constitutional rights and the Union is over, we will then contest the status of the overseas Territories that have been acquired since 1707 and that will stuff their Tax havens.

      Oh Happy Days.

    256. Effijy says:

      We totally dependant on Bojo being at his clown best in the coming months.

      If he lands Brexit in 2 weeks time we have the justification for Indy Ref 2.
      If he goes to an election and likely wins with the help of the Brexit Party of the
      Lib Tories they will refuse Scotland everything cut our budgets and make us a region.

      If there was to be yet another extension then it looks like SNP will also wait to see if
      We are dragged out against our will.

      if we get a 2nd Brexit vote and the result is overturned then where do we go for independence?

    257. Capella says:

      BBC says there will be a special sitting of Parliament to debate the BREXIT finale. Saturday 19th October. A day to remember – probably.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49984367

    258. Famous15 says:

      The constitutional convention after vote of no confidence is not the leader of the opposition getting first dibs BUT whoever Her Maj thinks can command the confidence of the House of Commons is called to form a government. Of course on the first vote on any Bill will determine whether she got it right.Boris got the job after May left because Her Maj thought he could command a majority.

      Examples from Australia etc where she got it wrong and calls for a republic followed.

      This is arguably the only real power left to the monarch.

    259. Willie says:

      To change tack and get down to granularity how many have noticed the recent policy shift where some of the big supermarket chains are ditching the Scottish Saltire branding in favour of Union Jack branding.

      Destroying Scotland the brand, denying consumers the ability to readily identify local sourced, locally produced produce is an outrage.

      For me I like to buy Scottish produce when I can – and over the recent weeks I have seen potatoes from Angus emblazoned with a big Union Jack. Ditto in another big supermarket one of the butchers told me that they’ve been told to wrap all their beef in newly supplied Union Jack branded foil – whilst, and this is the clever bit ditching on occasions the legal obligations to show slaughter codes, cutting codes.

      I’ve taken photographs of the deliberate selling of beef without the legislatively required product information. But will anything be done. Someone somewhere has pressed the button with these big supermarkets to go into Union Jack overdrive whilst allowing them to disregard the traceability labelling.

      These standards were brought in for a reason – BSE, horse meat burgers and it’s all being sacrificed, together with the destruction well respected Scottish branded produce.

      And we thought we had a mad bovine in the last PM. Well this shows you how dangerous, vicious and disregarding this current Westminster Government is on the ground.

    260. Liz g says:

      Terry Callahan @ 8.13am
      Why Should Wings stand by the SNP?
      He’s not in their employ,he owes them nothing!
      Infact they owe -Him- big time he has done more than most to garner votes for them, and he’s provided a form of protection from the vicious British Nationalist media that’s been second to none….. And still can…..

      As far as I can tell.
      The reason for this site…. What the Rev is actually supposed to be doing is going after Independence.
      Right now all ” the usual suspects ” are self promoting our Independence and I don’t think Wings could do it any better at the moment?
      So why not look at the SNP and form an opinion about whither or not they are falling short in some way!
      That’s not a split in the Indy movement that’s an examination of where we are all at.

      The SNP just got a poll done by a reputable company, and it’s results analysed by someone with a talent for it. Someone not bought off by manufactured title’s from the British State and no working towards one either.
      At no cost to them or their member’s.
      So..
      Here is what the poll says.
      Here is the Revs thoughts on it.
      That’s no a split that’s a conversation.
      The SNP are ment to be big on conversations?
      The Indy movement and mair tae the point the Indy vote is still there.
      There’s nae need to view it as “a split” it’s a “sit rep”!!
      Jesus Fucking H Christ Terry …. next we’ll be having another SNP civil war getting reported…. 🙂
      Everyone should calm the fuck doon ( no you Hamish 100 you can stay hysterical and do that Real Christian thing of encouraging others only to say bad word’s about ” other ” faiths)
      We’ve all wondered what we would do without the Internet,without Wings why can’t we explore what to do if the SNP aren’t there for us either? Or better still expose where their voter’s are actually at in their thinking?

    261. Willie, I refer to the Butcher’s Apron being stamped on most products in the Supermarkets as the ‘swatikisation’ of the Scottish Colony.
      It is quite deliberate, and follows the strategy of all Empires and totalitarian states.
      Scotland is a conquered colony of England.
      The Royal Air Force,HM Royal Navy, and the ‘British’ Army are strategically billeted throughout Scotland, manned (sic) by predominantly English born personnel, in barracks on a tour of duty in the Northern Territory.
      That the Dim but Nice Blue Tory ‘Sub-lieutenant’ Andrew Bowie was elected in the NE owes much to the Loyal ‘English’ vote Up There in Oil-land and Lossiemouth.

      There would be no Jackie Baillie but for the 11,000 English submariners and their families housed in MOD accommodation at Faslane.

      The Butcher’s Apron is everywhere; just as was the Swastika all over mainland Europe in the 1930’s and 40’s.
      It is now a symbol of conquest and colonisation of Scotland.

      I expect great things from the coming SNP Conference.
      By this week end we shall definitely know what’s happening with Brexit.

      Don’t forget, a portrait of Queen Elizabeth II of England hangs in every Armed Forces Mess Room and British Legion Hall across these islands.
      They fight for ‘queen and country’; that ‘country’ being England, not ‘the UK’.

    262. Liz g says:

      Kangaroo @ 8.45am
      Read the article,we’re trying to say what we’re all worried about.
      You may be right in your interpretation of it all,but the SNP aren’t confirming that either.
      They won’t answer their member’s and no one can get independence in any meaningful sense on the agenda at their upcoming conference.
      While I don’t think that they are in Westminster to just sit back,say nothing about Brexit and let that Brexit vote stand!!!
      They also don’t get to think that the Independence movement will sit back and say nothing about independence either.
      This is not a politician/judge led independence this is a Scottish People’s one and we should be in the loop.
      Not forgetting Nicola did ask that, when the people of Scotland are ready for independence we let her know.. Aye?

    263. McBoxheid says:

      That’s just mental. No SNP MP in their right mind would go for that.
      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      8 October, 2019 at 12:49 pm

      “A fifth don’t believe there will be a referendum by 2021. I’m not one of them. I believe there will be a referendum by autumn 2020, perhaps sooner. The 13% who don’t know are just being honest. Nobody knows.”

      In other words, they’re “unconvinced”. Which is what I said.
      _________________________

      Maybe the 13% think that their voting intention and their vote is private and confidendial. Maybe they haven’t got time for polls, especially from someone they do not know. Maybe they just can’t be arsed with answering a political blogger’s questions that is turning into a wannabee politician. Who knows.

      Maybe they also feel that you are trying to carve out part of the SNP vote, you’ve said it is only for the 2nd vote, but they still don’t know if you can be trusted as new party.

      The last 2 posts you have written have covered polls that you have worded with loaded questions. In your last poll you never asked if people thought the SNP would try to prevent Scotland from brexiting, which is what 62% voted for. Instead there are 3 options that don’t deal with Scotland only, the SNP’s remit and something else.

      By wording it in such a manner, you force people into answering one of the 3 by default. Who wants to say something else? Well just a few percent. People don’t like being made to feel stupid.

      It looks to me like an agenda. You want to start the wings party and it looks like from where I’m sitting, that in order to gain the votes you’ll need, you are trying to put the SNP in a bad light.

      You are starting to hurt the indy movement imo. It looks very much like you are trying to find your next gig after indepenence is decided one way or another. It looks like an attempt at that very old English game, Divide and Rule.

    264. Mist001 says:

      @ McBoxheid

      “………thought the SNP would try to prevent Scotland from brexiting, which is what 62% voted for.”

      Wrong. 62% of people may have wanted to remain in the EU but that’s completely different from 62% of people voting for the SNP to prevent Scotland Brexiting.

      That never happened.

    265. Bob Mack says:

      @MacBoxheid,

      You do realise polling companies set the questions. Panelbase are rather experienced at it.

    266. galamcennalath says:

      This abhorrent poster shows how the hardcore of Brexiteers view the world.

      There are some really sick people out there, and the worry is, they are wielding way too much power.

      https://tinyurl.com/y4dgxukz

    267. dadsarmy says:

      Perfect stuff, and don’t forget most of the normal starting players were rested to be fresh against Japan. Just need to win by more than 7 points. But preferably a lot more as it’s not good for the blood pressure!

    268. McBoxheid says:

      Jack collatin says:
      9 October, 2019 at 9:51 am

      They fight for ‘queen and country’; that ‘country’ being England, not ‘the UK’.
      _________
      And here’s me thinking that the armed forces are told they serve the government of the day.

      Many Scots of my generation joined up because Thatcher took away any chance of a job. BTW, Scots regiments drive into battle with the saltire flying on their tanks and APC’s, not the Butcher’s Apron.

    269. Lenny Hartley says:

      Hamish 100 , insulting other faiths? so you dont believe that there is a story of a talking snake in the bible, what other parts dont you believe, what about the Earth created in six days? Do you believe in that? So you believe in the superstitions of Iron age goat herders , thats fine, but dont come to me greeting About being insulted when mention is made of those superstitions, typical fucking Christian.

    270. McBoxheid says:

      Mist001 says:
      9 October, 2019 at 10:28 am

      @ McBoxheid

      “………thought the SNP would try to prevent Scotland from brexiting, which is what 62% voted for.”

      Wrong. 62% of people may have wanted to remain in the EU but that’s completely different from 62% of people voting for the SNP to prevent Scotland Brexiting.

      That never happened.
      _________________________-
      I never claimed it did. I would have thought that the SNP would have honoured the will of the 62%, especially as they as a party are against brexit. It is not in their interest either.

    271. McBoxheid says:

      Bob Mack says:
      9 October, 2019 at 10:28 am

      @MacBoxheid,

      You do realise polling companies set the questions. Panelbase are rather experienced at it.
      ______________________________

      No I didn’t. I thought the Rev set the questions to be asked.
      Not that it matters much, otherwise he would be complaining about the way the questions were asked. Unless he was happy with the questions, of course.

    272. Kangaroo says:

      Lizg @ 9:45am

      I agree with your position and frustration which is shared by a large percentage of the independence movement, however I would say that if I am correct, and I am aligned with RP and MF, then I would not be sharing my strategy with anybody either I would just quietly carry on skirmishing with the opposition and goading them into making mistakes before I “put the laces through it” as McFadden did against France shown in a previous post.

    273. Bob Mack says:

      @McBoxheid,

      Polling companies have access to computer programmes for these questions to ensure they are fulfilling their objective. One of the favourites is Rasch analysis wnich dete rmines if the questions their objective.s

      Measure wbat its supposed to measure

    274. Lenny Hartley says:

      McBoxHeid Bob Mac , my understanding is that the rev puts the questions to Panelbase who then vet them and if happy with them , they accept, if not they suggest alternative questions.
      ON another subject, great result for Scotland, still a chance, Wales v Fiji looking a cracking game, had a holiday in Fiji once , cracking people so sorry Welsh Sion , supporting them today, mind you I have never been to Wales, must put it on my bucket list !

    275. dadsarmy says:

      Judges in Scotland’s highest civil court have said they will continue the case brought by petitioners seeking a ruling to compel prime minster to send a letter to EU asking for an extension to Brexit if no deal in place until October 21st

      Yay!

      https://twitter.com/bbclornag/status/1181874231577063424

    276. Kangaroo says:

      dadsarmy @11:12am

      Excellent. Keep the screws turning.

    277. dadsarmy says:

      That’s funny, the BBC were really struggling, and have been forced to ask the Jocks what’s going on. First headline (rewinds) was “Judges in Scotland decide not to grant order”

      but after a time someone realised that was wrong.

      You’ve got to love the BBC.

      No, really …

    278. Ken500 says:

      Christians make up nearly 50% of the population in Scotland. Including Independence supporters/voters. (25%? )That is insulting a fair amount of voters. Misguided or what.

    279. callmedave says:

      Jings!

      BBC ‘server error’ messages all over the place… for Live news?

      I see from above the Scottish Court has spoken. 🙂

    280. dadsarmy says:

      @Kangaroo
      I must admit I’d have like to see BoJo given the full nob off, but you can’t have everything 🙂

    281. Mist001 says:

      The court has apparently delayed its decision until sometime next week until the deadline has passed.

      I’m beginning to smell a rat.

    282. Dr Jim says:

      The *contradiction party* claims we’re all one country then claims Scotland has a deficit (not a UK deficit then)

      They claim we vote as one country while at the same time stating we’re a Union of four constituent parts (eh?)

      They claim the *whole country* is being considered equally in each country of the Union (what?)

      They claim the will of the people is paramount yet ignore that will if it isn’t England’s will (everybody knows that)

      If Wales had voted remain the *contradiction party* would still be exiting the EU if they’d only had one vote of a majority in England

      The *contradiction party* claims the EU is undemocratic (of course they must be eh)

      Must be awkward at times being a member of the contradiction party when you have to keep remembering which bits are together and which bits are separate as the need arises to make your lies sound plausable to the population of the great dimwittery

    283. Colin mccartney says:

      @ ahundredthidiot

      After decades of disappointment and being let down by the tartan tories or the looney left factions of the snp and Scotland in general, I can play dirty too. I’m not looking for easy times and if anything I’m on the more radical side.
      I’m not moaning and stropping off from what I have believed in all my life, I’m just absenting myself from wings until sanity, or what passes for it, returns. There are plenty of other good blogs. I will miss some of the excellent comment on here although lately even that has increasing turned nasty and bitter.

    284. dadsarmy says:

      @Mist001
      Jo Maugham is delighted, Joanna Cherry is delighted, I’m delighted, anyone else who’s commented here so far is delighted, there’s no rats anywhere here.

    285. dadsarmy says:

      Oh, and Joanna Cherry has more to say:

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

      For anyone in any doubt as to what our latest #Brexit litigation has achieved re PM promise to comply with #BennAct ?@DaleVince? @jolyonmaugham Geoffrey Cox ‘threatens to resign if Boris Johnson doesn’t ask for a Brexit extension’

      That’s Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General who wrongly adivsed BoJo a 5 week prorogation was completely awful. Sorry, lawful.

    286. Cubby says:

      Lenny Hartley@10.33am

      Please be clear I am neither supporting nor decrying the content of your post. I will just point out to you that your insulting language is just the type of stuff that your pal uses and you now use but you you criticised me for. In fact you called me the most obnoxious person on Wings. Like so many on Wings you seem to have a capacity for hypocrisy. I don’t remember ever calling anyone a typical f….ing anything.

      Pot calling the kettle black right enough.

      Still love Arran and its golf courses.

    287. Kangaroo says:

      Jolyon on LBC at the moment

      https://goodlawproject.org/nobile-officium-cases-way-forward/

      We have got everything we asked for. Excellent.

    288. dadsarmy says:

      Jolyon’s article:

      https://goodlawproject.org/nobile-officium-cases-way-forward/

      Good Law Project, on its own account, is currently in the process of instructing leading Counsel specialising in civil contempt proceedings and does intend, if so advised, to institute contempt proceedings against the Prime Minister in respect of such failings.

      *laughs*

      *giggles*

      *falls flat on floor laughing his nob off*

    289. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin McCartney,

      Firstly. I apologise for my tone. No argument. I was always a hothead

      However I disagree strongly with your remarks about Stu. He has earned his stripes in the cause of Indepdndence. He has nothing to answer for. I think the problem lies with those who contribute to the site and are SNP members are venting their frustration because Stu dares to question SNP strategy.

      He is not alone. I was an SNP member but found it too frustrating.

      The very second any party believes itself above reproach,it is doomed. That goes for the membership too.

      What is really noticeable is the ferocity of attack on Stu. It is out of keeping for merely expressing a viewpoint. That is concerning in many ways. Have the SNP members become so tribal that they cannot accept any other view.? How will they convert waiverers at a door?/Attack them verbally?

    290. callmedave says:

      Sword of Damocles stuff for Boris…hope it has been honed ready for 19th October if he fails to carry out his obligations.

      Cherry and Co: Delighted with decision.

      But!…but!… ‘legal loopholes’ suggest BBC. Cherry shrugs. 🙂

      PS:
      All right with the world again BBC live news up and running again.

    291. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@11.29am

      Another excellent post. If I ever stopped looking at Wings your posts would be one of the main ones I would miss reading. Perfectly describing the ridiculous contradictions inherent in the UK and the Britnat parties that tie themselves in knots trying to hold it together.

    292. Mist001 says:

      @ dadsarmy

      The Scottish courts are as much a part of the establishment as the English courts and Joanna Cherry should certainly know this. The Establishment is also notorious for its use of dirty tricks.

      That court could have announced its decision this morning. Instead it’s delayed its decision until next week and you can bet your bottom dollar that there’ll be much discussion behind closed doors over the ensuing days as to what their ruling will really be.

      Dirty tricks and rats abound in the Establishment. This is not the time to celebrate this mornings events.

    293. dadsarmy says:

      Oh, apparently this procedure (noboff) is unique to the CoS in Scotland (which we knew), there’s no equivalent in England (we knew that), and there can be no appeal to the UKSC (which I wasn’t sure about).

      So if BoJo breaks the Benn Act, then it’s CoS on Monday 21sy Oct and if it upholds the petitions, then BoJo is screwed, the letter goes out is accepted by the EU (doesn’t mean they’ll grant the extension) and contempt proceedings are started against BoJo.

      The future’s bright, the future is – byebye BoJo, shortest PM for blah blah.

      And don’t forget it’s that pesky Scots Law that, even now, is holding the Sword of Damocles above Bozo’s head. Bless.

    294. Breeks says:

      Question…

      If Boris is in contempt of the Court of Session, and the Court of Session compels A. N. Other to intervene with Brexit process by requesting an extension to Article 50, at what point does the Court of Session reach the limit of its jurisdiction?

      More specifically, is it likely the extension to Article 50 might only relate to Scotland? Or will the Court of Session be technically presiding over UK matters?

      Surely the EU must concede the dilemma that it only recognises Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, when that UK Parliamentary Sovereignty is being held in contempt of Scots Law and Scottish popular sovereignty?

    295. Bob Mack says:

      @Breeks,

      This is interesting. A law professor has just pointed out that this law is unique to Scotland and has no parallel in En gland. Therefore apparently the Supreme Court cannot overturn this verdict. On that point he was emphatic.

      Interesting stuff.

    296. dadsarmy says:

      The Scottish courts are as much a part of the establishment as the English courts

      Very clearly from the results the last year or two, including the EU Continuity Bill (ruled lawful at point of passing bar one section), the A50 revocation (referred by CoS to ECJ on request and confirmed by CoS), the unlawful BoJo Prorogation (ruled by CoS and confirmed at UKSC)

      THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOB PROPERLY ENFORCING SCOTS AND UK LAW.

    297. mcBoxheid @9.51 am


      And here’s me thinking that the armed forces are told they serve the government of the day.

      Many Scots of my generation joined up because Thatcher took away any chance of a job. BTW, Scots regiments drive into battle with the saltire flying on their tanks and APC’s, not the Butcher’s Apron.”

      McBoxheid, you sum up perfectly the dilemma.
      ‘The Government of the Day, being a Government made up of 530 or so English MP’s, the DUP, a splattering of Welsh, and 59 Scots.
      An ‘English’ Government.
      That the Scots fly the saltire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and any other winnable conflict the WM Parliament undertakes, but not in My, or Our name, is a curious schizophrenic enigma.
      You are not denying that Lizzie’s portrait hangs in every Mess Hall, or that we have been flooded with Union Jackery in the past three years of Brexit?
      My only surprise during the ‘swatikisation’ of the Scottish colony is that the Unseen Hand of the Iron Heel Oligarchy didn’t name the Queensferry Bridge, The Queen Elizabeth II Bridge.
      I shall never refer to the new southern General Hospital in Glasgow by any ‘Royal Name’.
      Remind me: what is the name of the SoS for Scotland B-Lister (Union) Jack’s new 3000 strong stockade in Edinburgh.
      Queen Elizabeth House, or some such.
      Young working class kids on these isles are press ganged into the Forces and used as cannon fodder today, never mind in the era of the anti-Christ Thatcher.
      They die to protect the wealth of the Super rich, not to defend democracy or protect us, the Great Unwashed Hoi Polloi.
      Freedom come all ye.

    298. Kangaroo says:

      “The Scottish Courts are as much part of the establishment as the English Courts”

      Aye that’s correct, but their OUR establishment.

    299. Mist001 says:

      And here was me thinking naivety was the preserve of the young!!

    300. Lenny Hartley says:

      Cubby , i was responding to (Hamish 100) who said (As a member of Christians for Independence your regular profanity is not unusual though rather sad. If you have no argument at least keep your foul language to yourself “Rev”)
      what an arrogant statement, trying to censor the owner of this blog as to what he can write on his own blog.
      Maybe my judgement is clouded by having spent too long a time in my working life alongside Extremist Christians. However if you think that mentioning some of their beliefs is insulting that is up to you.
      in my experience which was maybe unusual as I used to travel extensively with American Christians (some of who were missionaries ) that arrogance and mindset is typical.
      If your ever on Arran and want a game of Gowf , give me a shout, we might have our spats on here but we have more that binds us than holds us apart.

    301. Bob Mack says:

      @Mist 001,

      It would probably have been illegal to send the letter today given that Benns !aw had given Johnson until 19th October to do just that and comply.

      The Court Of Session has kept the case open rather than close it so plaintiffs can be back in court on 21st October should he fail to send the letter.

    302. dadsarmy says:

      I think Joanna Cherry would laugh laugh laugh at being called “naive”.

      Considering there are some here who think the Courts may well be the way forward to Independence, and particularly the Court of Session, Scots Law, and in general the Rule of Law, I expect to see a bit of an escalation on attacks on our Courts from Brexiteers – and Unionists.

      In fact, it’s to be welcomed.

    303. Kangaroo says:

      dadsarmy

      I think Mist001s comment of naivety may have been aimed at my comment of 12:08pm. Obviously doesn’t get the joke.

    304. Dr Jim says:

      President Trump says he’s in a trade war with the EU so he decided to place massive tariff charges on to Scotch Whisky and several other Scottish products just as Scotland is being forced out of the EU by England

      So then if Mr Trump really is in a trade war with the EU one wonders why he did not place Tariffs on say French Brandy or Italian wine or German Reisling or Spanish Rioja given that those countries will not be leaving the EU

      One is also perplexed that so far it seems no products made in England are attracting these punitive Tariffs from Mr Trump, perhaps there will be announcements of such products coming along very soon

      Of course if one had a suspicious nature like I do and Mr Trump being a strong supporter of his British clone Boris mini Trump one might conclude that the big main Mr Trump had a wee blether with Mini Trump Boris and they decided between them to threaten poverty stricken wee tiny Scotland that becoming an Independent country and a EU member in it’s own right would attract threats from the people who think they run the world, of course we know that Mr Trump and Mini Trump only seem to make threats to those they fear, like China for example, so deductions logically follow that England is afraid of Scotland becoming Independent because without Scotland’s cash England is to put it mildly rubber ducked

      No matter the arguments between Nations or politicians around the world, most of the time every economist will tell you that trade wars are good for nobody, everybody loses so why is the Big Trump pursuing a personal vendetta against Scotland, no need for answers on a postcard folks

    305. Remember,

      Concern Troll,

      A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the troll claims to hold.

      The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group’s actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed “concerns”.

      The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt within the group.

      They are also called parasites,where the parasite, lives on or in another organism, the host, causing it harm, and has adapted to this fuc’ked up way of life.

    306. Bob Mack says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      Instead of that fine definition, why just not point them. out as such? They have post names.

    307. Willie says:

      Yes Jack Collatin the Union Jacks are proliferating like Swaztikas in 1930 Germany.

      But coming back to the UJ branding of Scottish products this can only be a disaster for Scottish produce. The perception of the quality of Scottish produce is high – seafood, meat, whisky and we trash our reputation at our peril.

      Indeed, post Brexit the Americans ( and indeed the Peruvians ) are seeking a trade deal that will allow them to produce and sell whisky branded as “ Scotch “

      Big time laugh then if Scotch can be produced all over the world. And wouldn’t the USA ( or the Peruvians, the Argentinians or the Japanese ) love to get a bite of the market with hone produced “ Scotch “

      Aye, Trump will give us a great trade deal, and who cares about Scottish products – and the folks that earn a living from them.

      The fabled Union Dividend. And we voted for it too. Ah well we probably deserve no less for our stupidity

    308. Capella says:

      @ Dr Jim – yes it is odd that Donald Trump has not levied huge tariffs on similar French, German and English goods but attacks Scottish whisky and seafood, our main exports (but not mainly to the US). I did wonder if Boris Johnston has encouraged him down this particular cul-de-sac.

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @Giving Goose says: 8 October, 2019 at 2:59 pm:

      ” … I think I understand what you have articulated but would benefit from a slightly reworded version to make it clear.
      Is this possible?”

      I’m sorry, Giving Goose, I have to fit a lot into the time I get after applying the eye drops that I have to use until I get my eye operation as my vision soon gets misty again. I’ll try to make the message a bit clearer.

      I believe the SNP, (Led at Holyrood by a trained lawyer), and at Westminster the legal push is by Joanna Cherry who is a Queen’s Council. Thus they look at matters from a legal viewpoint.

      So just what is that legal viewpoint must be the question we foot soldiers ask ourselves and it really isn’t over complicated:-

      The legal title of the union is without doubt, “The United Kingdom”, and that tells us e4xactly what it legally is.

      Quite simply it is what it’s title says it is. If you bought a can from a supermarket shelf that was labelled as Baked Beans but when you opened the can you found it contained Creamed Rice you would have a legal claim upheld in court against the supermarket.

      So the union is labelled as, “The United Kingdom”, but that is not what is now in the tin, for when opened we find it is The de facto ‘country’ of Greater England. It is not now even the Kingdom of England but, when it suits Westminster, they act as if it is. YeT when it doesn’t suit Westminster it becomes Greater England as is seen by devolution and by the EVEL legislation.

      Now I hope that the first part of what I’m trying to say is clearer now. The United Kingdom is legally a union of only the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. Thus the resultant union is a united kingdom composed of only the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England.

      It is neither a union of three countries and a bit countries nor is it a single unified country. It began as a bigger kingdom composed of two equally sovereign kingdoms and it remains, (legally), a united kingdom called, would you believe, “The United Kingdom”.

      Right, now that is out of the way, we must consider what it legally is not. In spite of devolution it is not a unified country with England the master country and the other countries in the United Kingdom subservient units of Greater England. That means Westminster is labelled wrongly. It is wrongly labelled if viewed as anything other than two, equally sovereign kingdoms in an, “International Treaty of Union”, between two kingdoms.

      So when the SNP, both at Holyrood & Westminster, fight to keep the United Kingdom in the European Union they are fighting to keep the Kingdom of Scotland within the European Union and, not as seems to be the general views held here on Wings, fighting to keep the country of England in the EU.

      The SNP first priority is to keep the Kingdom of Scotland in the European Union until the European Union can get its collective heads round the real legal facts of what the United Kingdom actually legally is.

      The EU member State known as, “The United Kingdom is a two headed beast and each head is equally legally valid. In simple terms the United Kingdom is a two partner kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms. It is neither a single country nor is it a single kingdom.

      So, if the EU treats the United Kingdom as two equally sovereign kingdoms they must agree that Scotland can remain within the EU as they democratically voted to remain and the two and a bit countries of the Kingdom of England can leave as they democratically voted to do. Any other decision by the EU cannot be legally justified.

      Which brings us round to the thorny question of how does the SNP convince the EU to do what is legally correct and fair?

      Now take note of something I’ve never seen debated anywhere, neither SMSM or internet. Just why has the leader of the SNP chosen to lead from Holyrood rather than from Westminster? Could it be that the long term plan was to have Holyrood holding the legacy membership of the EU after independence?

      Anyway, that is how I have seen this problem of Scottish Independence being achieved for over 70 years. That is as an equally sovereign kingdom partner in a two kingdom United Kingdom and today all it would take is for the EU to do the right thing and treat the United Kingdom as a united kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms.

      To which end the SNP has already made the legal point of the Scottish Claim of Right stick in Holyrood, Westminster, in the UK Supreme Court and in the international courts. They have also made clear that the UK Supreme Court cannot over rule the Inner Court of Session decisions and have, for a considerable time, been convincing the rest of the World that the United Kingdom is indeed a two partner entity.

      The whole EU parliament’s views have quite dramatically changed over the past few years and all this, so called, BREXIT caper has convinced a great many World Powers that Westminster is not, and never has been, quite what it claimed to be.

      For starters all Britain is not ruled by Westminster and thus Britain will not be leaving the EU because Britain is not the member state and bits of Britain will not be leaving the EU.

      Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond before her, much to Westminster’s displeasure, have gone around the World making Scotland’s case for no matter how legal a case may be it depends upon the World powers accepting that Scotland’s case is valid. It isn’t the courts that decide the case but it sure as hell helps.

      So there you go. To get my point all you needs do is read Wings comments and see how the commenters are not convinced that the United Kingdom is a two partner union of equally sovereign kingdoms. See how many times they assume that The Westminster Establishment is the actual parliament of England and the battle for independence is between the country of Scotland and the United Kingdom – a united kingdom that the Kingdom of Scotland is legally an equal partner in. If we cannot convince the independence foot soldiers of the legal case what chance have we of convincing the MSPs of the EU member states?

    310. msdidi says:

      Dr Jim at 12.24pm
      Exactly what I have been thinking about the reason behind Trumps tariff on Scotch Whisky and other Scottish products. Maybe when the GE campaign starts in earnest Boris Johnston will persuade Mr Trump to reverse this policy (that they cooked up between them) with the hope of gaining votes for his diabolical party up here.

    311. SilverDarling says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      Parodies of dictionary definitions of internet slang, many of which have multiple definitions and are often personalised for the individual’s particular bugbear.

      So are all the SNP members here telling others to shoosh and not to rock the boat ‘Concern Trolls’?

      They are voicing ‘concern’ that the SNP support may appear divided and are worried in case the Yoons get a whiff of discord. They are concerned that the SNP is being undermined by those pointing it out the party leadership has troubling views on certain areas.

      Is the Rev a ‘Concern Troll’? Is the individual who posts passive aggressive snark about the Rev in the National a concern troll?

      Or is it only the people who have concern about the SNP strategy and policy and with whom you disagree ? You see once you start calling people concern trolls or britnats or 77th brigade you are trying to silence anything they have to say for ever more.

      Which brings me to a phrase within another of the Urban Dictionary definitions of CT:

      “The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue…”

      I honestly thought we were now beyond that here but it seems it is yet another device to deny anyone who criticizes the SNP a voice.

    312. Cubby says:

      Lenny Hartley@12.11pm

      As I regularly post that I work on evidence and facts you will not be surprised that I am an atheist. So it is not the details of your disagreement that I was commenting on but the fact that if someone personally insults you (or a friend or someone you respect) in the first place for a reason or no reason then if you reply in kind then I think that is understandable even if some restraint might be a better course of action.

      I do not hold myself to any higher standard than others but I object to this painting of me as some sort of disrupter by your pal who couldn’t keep his promise to ignore me. Plenty of people on Wings fall out and have spats. I am no exception.

      Thanks for your invite to the lovely island of Arran. You never know I might take you up on that next summer. In general I tend to agree with the contents of your posts and sorry to read you could not make the march in Saturday.

      In general, I believe in religious freedom but not when it moves into the realms of extremism. Not something I have personally experienced but I think I can imagine how it would affect your opinions.

    313. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@1.04pm

      Hope you get your eye operation soon and all goes well.

      A comment I often make when referring to the UK is to refer to Jk Rowlands marriage analogy. If Scotland and England are in a marriage and one of the parters ends the marriage then how exactly does the Marriage ( being the UK) continue to exist. It doesn’t and that takes care of the common misconception that Scotland would be leaving the UK and the UK would continue to exist – it doesn’t.

    314. Ghillie says:

      Scott Finlayson @ 12.25 pm, Appreciated =)

      Hamish 100, I agree with you about SC’s expletive. Sweary words and rich oaths of discontent I can cope with and even laugh at, but disrespect to anyone’s religion is unacceptable and in anycase, unnecessary.

    315. Ghillie says:

      Dr Jim @ 12.25 pm

      Really interesting points!

      Though maybe Trump Major’s knowledge of the fine produce of the EU is limited.

      Trump Minor may be up to tricks. Msdidi @ 1.51 pm you may have struck the nail on the head =)

    316. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers @ 1.04 pm

      You would have made a wonderful teacher 🙂

      Thankyou so much for laying that out so clearly. I do hope Stuart Campbell finds time to read that particular post.

      I have certainly felt strongly that Nicola Sturgeon’s knowledge of the Law, together with the great and varied expertise amongst the SNP team, would play a huge part in how the SNP work towards securing Scotland’s Independence.

      And that the time spent in the company of other World leaders was time well spent 🙂

      Thankyou Mr Peffers 🙂

    317. McBoxheid says:

      Jack collatin says:
      9 October, 2019 at 12:07 pm

      mcBoxheid @9.51 am


      And here’s me thinking that the armed forces are told they serve the government of the day.

      Many Scots of my generation joined up because Thatcher took away any chance of a job. BTW, Scots regiments drive into battle with the saltire flying on their tanks and APC’s, not the Butcher’s Apron.”

      McBoxheid, you sum up perfectly the dilemma.
      ‘The Government of the Day, being a Government made up of 530 or so English MP’s, the DUP, a splattering of Welsh, and 59 Scots.
      An ‘English’ Government.
      That the Scots fly the saltire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and any other winnable conflict the WM Parliament undertakes, but not in My, or Our name, is a curious schizophrenic enigma.
      You are not denying that Lizzie’s portrait hangs in every Mess Hall, or that we have been flooded with Union Jackery in the past three years of Brexit?
      My only surprise during the ‘swatikisation’ of the Scottish colony is that the Unseen Hand of the Iron Heel Oligarchy didn’t name the Queensferry Bridge, The Queen Elizabeth II Bridge.
      I shall never refer to the new southern General Hospital in Glasgow by any ‘Royal Name’.
      Remind me: what is the name of the SoS for Scotland B-Lister (Union) Jack’s new 3000 strong stockade in Edinburgh.
      Queen Elizabeth House, or some such.
      Young working class kids on these isles are press ganged into the Forces and used as cannon fodder today, never mind in the era of the anti-Christ Thatcher.
      They die to protect the wealth of the Super rich, not to defend democracy or protect us, the Great Unwashed Hoi Polloi.
      Freedom come all ye.
      _______________________

      Aye all true.
      Pictures in messes etc. The royal family are a pain in the arse to soldiers.

      BTW when we went in to liberate Kuwait, Saddam Hussien had over 2 million troops, chemical weapons, etc. So we did not know we would win so convincingly. Lots of folk died still, many more Iraqis than our side. They chucked babies out of incubators and took them back to Iraq.

      Falklands, NI, Afgahnistan were tough on the people that went and those that live there. Same with Iraq 2. War is hell on the locals involved and on some of the troops that went.

      Today the troops are meant to get a bit of PTSD councelling if they need it.
      Young men tend to join up out of desperation. The don’t want to join the bru queue.

      I see things differently today. Now I realise how much we are lied to and used for the gain of the 1%. As a young man, there was no internet, only the BBC to shout out the lies that they continue to shout. The army is desperate for manpower.

    318. McBoxheid says:

      Syria and Yemen are really sick and the british gov STILL continue to sell weapons or parts or training to them. It disgusts me that with a minority goverment, the oposition hasn’t put a stop to it.

      Lots of Syrians where I live. They are keen to work and very polite. Young men give up their seats on the bus and help people with prams and those 4 wheeled walking aids that older folk like to use. Ive seen German school kids laughing when an old women fell over in the bus.



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