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The outsider

Posted on May 17, 2015 by

Note: we haven’t mocked this up.


But jings, readers, it’s hardly any dafter than most of the others.

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    1. 17 05 15 10:33

      The outsider | Speymouth

    328 to “The outsider”

    1. Seasick Dave says:

      That gene pool has completely dried up.

    2. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      where’s Jackie. I want Jackie, to keep my humour up.

      8/1 hardly seems low enough. Good bet I think.

    3. Ken500 says:

      It’s unbelievable. Beyond belief. Shocking

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Aye, Jackie Baillie seems not a bad bet. Dugdale desperately doesn’t want to do it (and the last time a leader resigned her deputy didn’t take over), it would seem absurd to pick any of the candidates who lost to Murphy, and Baillie’s already done it as stand-in. Given that SOMEONE has to be leader, 8/1 seems pretty decent.

    5. Clootie says:

      oh please!

    6. thorbor says:

      Cmon the Baillie

    7. goldenayr says:

      And only 6 out of the 11 are sitting politicians.Are they throwing their rule book out now?
      They’ve ignored it for everything else.

    8. Ranald says:

      Aye but, some of the names on the list are neither MSPs nor MPs so are automatically ineligible. Is it just me?
      I suppose they don’t have much of a pool from which to select a candidate.

    9. Tony Little says:

      That must be wrong, Rev. After all once Kezia has finished her investigation into the “honourable gentleman’s” online abuse, he will be thrown out of the party. After all, that has always been the Labour way. Hasn’t it?

    10. Capella says:

      There is not yet a vacancy.

    11. ShredderIsAlive says:

      Yet I somehow imagine Kezia Dugdale will still pretend she doesn’t know who he is.

    12. Alistair Grapevine says:

      Where’s Mundell, oh wrong party…….or is it?

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Aye but, some of the names on the list are neither MSPs nor MPs so are automatically ineligible.”

      Indeed. Brown, Sarwar and Alexander are all disqualified. Marra almost certainly still has career ambitions and so won’t want this poisoned chalice. I very much doubt Macintosh fancies the heat. Boyack and Findlay would be mad choices – you can’t pick people who LOST to Murphy last time, the message that sends is just insane – and that pretty much leaves only Baillie holding the ticking parcel.

    14. heedtracker says:

      Ian Smart shouting you’re all Nazi’s at FMQ’s should keep SLabour going for a while.

    15. Clootie says:

      Capella makes a good point. We may have a “Farage moment” by Scottish Labour….by popular demand!

    16. frankieboy says:

      The Northern British branch choices are beginning to look like the bottom of a Quality Street tin in mid January. Orange creme, anyone?

    17. Rigmac7 says:

      Could the SNP lend them someone to get them back on course? Or perhaps Eric Joyce could go back and instill some much needed discipline in there.

      Alternately, and my personal favourite, they simply stop the messing around and merge the leadership campaigns between Scotland and rUK, to come up with a Super Leader will ultimate powers – which is already the reality anyway isn’t it? And it would save them and extra leaders wage. Plus they’re Better Together.

    18. A few weeks ago I got up, made coffee, and realised I’d no cigarettes, on a morning it was chucking it down with rain. Found myself rummaging through the bin and ashtray to see if there were any dog ends with enough tobacco to make one wee roll up before braving the elements.

      Strange how looking at the table above reminds me of that morning!

    19. jimnarlene says:

      Does anyone know, how much popcorn has been sold in Scotland recently?

    20. galamcennalath says:

      The obvious candidate will be from the left. However, this is at odds with the London leadership contest where they will choose someone from the right. Since, as we all repeat so often, there is no such thing as Scottish Labour in a WM context, perpetuating the idea that The North British branch can have direction and WM policies different from London is disingenuous.

      Some say SLab should be autonomous. Perhaps for Holyrood, but what about WM? Will they continue to take the London Labour whip? If they become truly independent of London then presumably they would form a coalition and SLab would attempt to get some of their distinct policies implemented.

      Allegedly, Murphy will be writing a report/plan offering solutions. The logic defies all sense. If he has plans for success, then why didn’t he implement them!?

      My advice to Labour? SLab should he headed by an MSP and focus on Holyrood and devolved matters. They could always show some initiative and campaign for maximum devolved powers! At a UK level there is only one Labour Party and one set of policies, they should be honest and open about this.

    21. gerry parker says:

      @ heedtracker.

      He’ll have to do it from the gallery though and I am sure Tricia and also the parliamentary security team will have something to say about that.

    22. ronnie anderson says:

      The Outider,

      Aw Rev their awe their Mothers Pride & joy. Never waste ah outsider make Toast wie it.

    23. Muscleguy says:

      @Donald Urquart

      That was Nature telling you to give the fags up.

    24. Legerwood says:

      They should also be giving odds on Murphy staying on.

      According to an a article in today’s Sunday Herald he did not tell the SEC after the confidence vote that he was going to ‘table’ his resignation.

      The first they heard about it was when he announced it at the press conference.

    25. This doesn’t surprise me. There are still some Labour voters who are complaining about how nasty and abusive the Nats are but refuse to accept that there are people like Ian Smart in their own ranks.
      Perhaps Murphy has decided to stay on long enough to change the rules on eligibility for the leadership because, as another poster noted, they are indeed scraping the barrel.

    26. Simon Chadwick says:

      It’s like the UK really. They should make their minds up. Separate party? Or united party – in which case don’t have a Scottish leader, you only need one leader!

    27. kininvie says:

      One name that doesn’t appear is that of Malcolm Chisholm. Sure, at 66, he’d effectively be a caretaker leader until such time as the Labour party decided where it was going – but he’s not a divisive character, not one of the SNP bad brigade, widely respected in Holyrood, anti-Trident (and resigned over it)…

      He’d take a bit of persuading, but he’s about the only figure I can think of who might bring a bit of calm reflection to ScoLab.

    28. Naina Tal says:

      Of course he’s lying. Whenever did this man do anything else.
      Here’s my scenario:

      Jim tells the papers he’ll resign. There follows a month of will he won’t he. Jim is on the telly and in the papers every day stringing it out.

      He presents his “report” to the Executive.
      Aw Jim that’s brilliant it’ll save the pairty and bugger the Nats.
      There’s only one person who can implement it.
      Please stay. Don’t go. (Crying Shames record)

    29. nodrog says:

      Before they decide on a leader first they need to decide how to split up. 1. A loyal northern branch office of UK Labour based on Red Tory policies. i.e. Centre or even slightly Centre Right. or 2. A real Scottish Labour Party with traditional labour values. i. e. more left than centre and totally independent of UK Labour. Once they decide who is in which camp then they can choose a leader. I believe it has to be a sitting MSP or MP and the only MP has nailed his colours to the Northern Branch Office (including any SNP stickers removed from his own office door) therefore narrowing the choice. Of course a third option would be for any decent ones to join the SNP.

    30. Robert Kerr says:

      @Seasick Dave 8:49 am

      “That gene pool has completely dried up.”


      Pond Life, all of them. Lots of liquid. Pish perhaps!

      More Popcorn vicar?

    31. tubes says:

      The choice is obvious, as is the selection method:
      The BBC Scotland staff list can be scoured for nominees and the selection can be by online poll in the Daily Record.

      Tru-Labour folk giving Tru-Labour service.

      Murphy will join M&M as part of team wannabe Malcolm Tucker.

      I’ve seen it, written on an 8′ stone tablet.

    32. Kenlike says:

      LATEST ODDS for “Scottish Labour” Leader

      4/5 JK Rowling
      2/1 Jackie Bird
      3/1 Ruth Davidson
      5/1 Len McCluskey
      10/1 Archie McPherson
      20/1 Some English bloke
      50/1 Hazel McWitch
      1,000,000/1 Jim Murphy

    33. call me dave says:

      Hearald won’t archive:
      McTernan tried to bring down the dug it seems, labour split down the middle.

      Jim Murphy: the humbling of a leader.

      JIM Murphy announced his resignation as Scottish Labour leader yesterday and took a bitter swipe at the “destructive behaviour” of his trade union nemesis Len McCluskey.

      Murphy survived a no-confidence vote by his party – thanks largely to a former MI6 officer in the House of Lords – but he stunned colleagues by saying he would quit next month.

      In an attack on Unite general secretary McCluskey, Murphy said the trade unionist’s belief that Scottish Labour was to blame for the UK party’s general election defeat was a “grotesque insult”.

      Murphy had gone to ground last week after Scottish Labour lost 39 of its 40 Westminster seats, including his own East Renfrewshire constituency.

      The humiliation prompted major trade unions and members of Murphy’s shadow cabinet to call for his head, but he insisted on staying in post.

      At a meeting of the party’s Scottish executive committee (SEC) yesterday, Murphy narrowly won the vote by 17-14.

      He himself voted – a manoeuvre that raised eyebrows – and a row also broke out about the eligibility of another SEC member.

      Under the rules, two members of the UK parliamentary Labour party get an SEC place, but with sole MP Ian Murray getting one vote there was nobody left to fill the other space.

      Outgoing UK deputy leader Harriet Harman sent the party a letter saying the slot would be taken up by life peer Meta Ramsay, a former spy and Lords Chair of The Labour Friends of Israel.

      She served in the diplomatic service between 1969 and 1991 and was involved in the successful operation to woo former KGB Colonel Oleg Gordievsky.

      If she had voted in favour of the no-confidence motion, and Murphy had abstained, the vote would have been a tie.

      Her participation was challenged at the SEC, but she was allowed to vote and backed Murphy.

      At the meeting, a letter signed by 10 MSPs – around 25% of the group – was handed to the SEC which called on Murphy to quit.

      The ten were: Claudia Beamish; Duncan McNeil; Elaine Smith; Margaret McCulloch; Margaret McDougall; Neil Findlay; Cara Hilton; Jayne Baxter; Rhoda Grant; and Alex Rowley.

      After the vote, Murphy failed to tell fellow SEC members that he was planning to announce his resignation at a press conference.

      He told journalists that he would table a radical set of internal reforms at the next SEC meeting and quit after doing so.

      Murphy said “no option will be off the table” for party reform and said Scottish Labour is the “least modernised part of the UK Labour movement”.

      However, his angriest comments were reserved for McCluskey.

      The source of the dispute between the pair is the Falkirk selection scandal, during which Unite was said to have manipulated the contest in a bid to benefit McCluskey’s friend Karie Murphy.

      The then MP had infuriated McCluskey by criticising Unite’s role in the saga.

      The outgoing leader said yesterday: “I know that, in the past few days, I have been at the centre of a campaign by the London leadership of Unite the union. They are blaming myself or the Scottish Labour party for the defeat of the UK Labour party at the general election. That is a grotesque insult to the Scottish Labour party.

      “It is a grotesque insult to our thousands of volunteers from someone who pays occasional fleeting visits to our great country.”

      He slammed the “destructive behaviour of one high profile trade unionist”, adding: “The leader of the Scottish Labour party doesn’t serve at the grace of Len McCluskey. And the next leader of the UK Labour party should not be picked by Len McCluskey.”

      Murphy and his allies had spent the previous week trying to shore up support amongst different elements in the party.

      Council leaders were contacted about signing a pledge of support for the ex-MP, and MSPs were also approached individually with a view to sounding out their loyalty.

      In parallel, opposition to Murphy increased as the SEC meeting approached.

      Scepticism about the leader was initially confined to trade unions and supporters of Neil Findlay MSP, who Murphy had defeated along with Sarah Boyack in December.

      However, Boyack’s supporters also began to peel away, first at a meeting of MSPs in Glasgow and then during the business days of Parliament.

      The mood of MSPs darkened after a request for a group meeting was denied by the leader’s allies.

      Others were said to be incensed at comments made by Harman that the “group” of MSPs backed Murphy.

      While the ten MSPs signed a letter calling for Murphy to quit, a counter letter supporting the leader was handed to the SEC by a group of ex-MPs.

      A key figure at the centre of drama was deputy leader Kezia Dugdale, who was deemed to be a shoo-in if her boss quit.

      Many of her supporters were urging Murphy to stay, not out of respect for him, but because they felt the timing was wrong for Dugdale to take over.

      They believed it would be better if Murphy led Scottish Labour into the 2016 Holyrood election, take the hit, and hand over to Dugdale.

      If Dugdale took over immediately, her allies feared she would get hammered next year and become a lame duck.

      One senior party insider said the relationship between Dugdale and McTernan – Murphy’s chief of staff – had “broken down completely”.

      McTernan had tried to link Dugdale’s future to Murphy’s fate as leader by arguing that a no-confidence motion in his boss was also a rejection of the deputy.

    34. Alex Birnie says:

      All of the above is in bad taste. It’s like giggling at the funeral of a neighbour that you didn’t like. Let’s move quietly away, and let the family mourn in private…Mind you……Ian Smart?!!!….. Seriously?!?….They wouldn’t – they couldn’t – could they??

    35. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Jackie Baillie is the obvious candidate.

      Posh upbringing, private schooling in Windermere, universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde

      She will fit perfectly in the new Labour heartlands of Morningside, Grange and Marchmont.

      She has got that Red Tory and Blue Tory appeal to bring in new voters.

      If I were a betting man 8/1?

    36. Lollysmum says:

      Oh deary, deary me-they are in a mess aren’t they? Just like Labour in England & Wales. Their choices are pretty limited for Labour anywhere in UK. No one comes across as being capable of uniting the party & reaching out to it’s lost voters to entice them back into the fold.


      And I say that being an ex-Labour voter of 40+ years. Good riddance to the lot of them. They don’t represent the people-they represent themselves & their own self serving interests.

      What Scotland & England/Wales needs are principled politicians to represent them not this shower of s*** currently in place on both sides of the border. Purge the lot of them & start again if need be.

      Retaining the dregs of GE15 failure is not going to work because the poison is still there at Labour’s core in the UK & Scotland branch office and the Labour held councils throughout the UK.

      It’s time for progressive parties to find their feet & challenge the status quo in England/Wales just as the SNP #Team56 have done. This is the only way we will get representation of the people back again.

    37. Jim McIntosh says:

      Shouldn’t Jim have told his constituents first…. Oh wait, he doesn’t have any. 🙂 🙂

    38. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Rev Stu

      – and that pretty much leaves only Baillie holding the ticking parcel.

      Which she will clutch closely to ample bosom.B

    39. Breeks says:

      I believe the BBC has a tub of lard ready to stand in whenever a Labour politician can’t be found. Might be a bit stale now, but it was popular in it’s day, kept to the BBC script, and could be trusted not to say the wrong thing.

    40. fred blogger says:

      is scottish labour ever going to be outside the sphere of influence of the labour, no.
      what it decides will/can always be outvoted by labour.
      as uk labour is doomed to forever chase the tory shadow, it’s stuck in the shite of it’s own creation.

    41. Croompenstein says:

      Ian Smart!!, they’d be better with Billy Smart 🙂

    42. De Valera says:

      Why isn’t Simon Pia included? He is one of my favourite zoomers.

    43. HandandShrimp says:

      A new leader is just a sticking plaster. Labour needs to sort out who they are and what they are for first. In England the indications are that the Blairites are taking over. I doubt that will cut much ice in Scotland.

    44. boris says:

      call me dave says:
      17 May, 2015 at 10:13 am

      Hearald won’t archive: McTernan tried to bring down the dug it seems, labour split down the middle.

      Excellent briefing note. Thanks

    45. Stoker says:

      I don’t know how these things work – would people get their money back when it’s revealed the snake oil salesman is staying put?

      On another matter – anyone else noticed how the corrupt media are all giving it “Murphy Survives Vote Of No Confidence” etc etc.

      You can bet anything you like that if that was the SNP leader in that position the scumbag media would be screaming “A Party Divided” etc etc.

      UK media – absolutely zero credibility and a disgrace to journalism.

    46. Ron says:

      Can’t all the Labour Party members in Scotland just take turns at being leader every week? After all there’s only about 30 of them.

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      Read this list : –

      Alex Rowley,
      Neil Findlay,
      Claudia Beamish,
      Duncan McNeil,
      Elaine Smith,
      Margaret McCulloch,
      Margaret McDougall,
      Cara Hilton,
      Jayne Baxter,
      Rhoda Grant.

      And watch this space.


    48. Juteman says:

      Tony Blair, with Gordon Brown as his deputy.

    49. Hughonabike says:

      Ian Smart. Genius. Slab really are thick.

    50. Fiona says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      17 May, 2015 at 10:46 am
      A new leader is just a sticking plaster. Labour needs to sort out who they are and what they are for first. In England the indications are that the Blairites are taking over. I doubt that will cut much ice in Scotland.

      And this is the crucial point. The focus on leaders is part of the neoliberal mindset. Until they return to an understanding of the leaderS as servants of the people they represent, they are never going to get anywhere. It is telling that they intend to elect a leader and then decide what to do: instead of deciding what to do and then looking for leaderS who embody that plan. Cult of personality is all

    51. Macart says:

      Oh good grief and what a list that is.

      They are kidding right?

      Labour members in Scotland will never get a better chance than this to clean house and actually form an independent Scottish Labour and the candidates are…?

      Same old, same old toxic politics.

    52. Now's the Hour says:

      Wot no Jackie Burd or Eleanor Bradford???
      I’m shocked.

    53. Stoker says:

      Add DimJim to that list of 11 candidates and you get the dirty dozen.

      On the plus side, there is ample ammo against every one of them.

      AYE, the future is most certainly bright.

    54. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Fiona says:
      17 May, 2015 at 11:01 am

      HandandShrimp says:

      Those turkeys never would vote for Xmas

    55. Fiona says:

      @ Bugger (the Panda)

      They have already voted for Xmas: it is Boxing day

    56. One_Scot says:

      I am no political expert, but even I can see that Scotland would have to be Independent to stop Scottish Labours inevitable extinction.

    57. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Not sure if anyone has posted this again but well worth watching as it is just brilliant.

      bonnie prince bob and Jim Murphy Savoiur of the Union

      Best historical drama/satire with accurate predictions of the future.

      Should win a BAFTA next year!

    58. Louis B Argyll says:

      Brown & Blair & Darling & Straw… Etc
      “British” elder statesmen.. Took their careers right to the top… AT THE EXPENSE OF THEIR BELOVED PARTY…
      Now despised by many, irrelevant to the rest, blighted by a history of mismanagement.

      Who would follow in these footsteps..?

    59. Dr Jim says:

      Bring back Johann

      Seriously though, I’ll do it, I’ve got a flat cap and there’s plenty of pigeons round where I live

      I’m sure I can pick up some policies somewhere and see how they go
      If they don’t work I’m sure I can get some other ones
      That’s not as important as loyalty to the party though, so if they pay me lots of dosh I’m their man (Or Woman)or indeed any gender that’s popular
      Honesty, I know how to do that, That’s keeping your face straight when you’re lying your arse off

      So let me be clear, and this is what we’ve said, moving forward towards social justice and fairness for all is a key motivator for our strategy to take the people with us on this important new journey to lose even more heavily to the SNP than ever before

      Can I be a Lord now?

    60. Giving Goose says:

      We are witnessing the end days of Labour.
      I had thought that a Labour Party disassembling into an independent Scottish and a separate English/Welsh party would be a route Labour would take, but with the soul searching currently ongoing in England I can’t see this happening.
      There is going to be a lot of navel gazing going on before the gestation of a new, refreshed Labour is going to happen, led by Central Office in London.
      The only thing that will save Labour in Scotland is for some brave person to advocate a declaration of UDI for the party in Scotland.

    61. Louis B Argyll says:

      Seriously off topic..
      Watched British news throughout yester day..

      Did anyone see ANYTHING about protests in Shell/Arctic drilling.

      Im feeling sickened by the continued COMPLICITY from the UK media.. still waiting for an explanation re “chaos.. on the streets” LIE.

    62. Don McKay says:

      Meanwhile elsewhere, ………..

      Andy Burham’s running mate and proposed chancellor in 2020’is the one and only Rachel Reeve.

      Remember Rachel is the kind soul who stated the labour party should distanced itself from the unemployed and people on benefit.

      Expect more from Rachel during the summer, but to provide balance, let’s remind Rachel and the electorate of her past utterances.

    63. CatSilver says:

      Labour need someone in Scotland who won’t scare the English swing Tory voters, but the trouble is most Scots don’t want someone like that. It’s possible the England-based press will go back to completely ignoring us again now our new SNP MPs have been photographed eating chips rather than babies, so it might not be too much of an issue for Westminster.

      Labour can’t square the circle between what Scots want from them and what the English and Welsh want from them. I don’t think they even know themselves who they want to appeal to anymore. Maybe they’ll unofficially abandon Scotland and keep chasing Tory votes but I can’t see them surviving if they do. Maybe they won’t survive whatever they choose.

      Thank you for the welcome yesterday, Lollysmum. It was much appreciated.

    64. Marcia says:

      No nameplate for the next Leader. Written in chalk.

    65. Fred says:

      Ken MacIntosh, ever a bridesmaid never a bride.

    66. Peter Barton says:

      Anyone know why Katie Clark is not included?

    67. Richardinho says:

      Would be a bit embarrassing at a future FMQs for Dugdale to have to deny knowing who Smart is!

    68. Richardinho says:

      Ian Murray, Scottish Labour’s only M.P at second last place, although I dread to think who’s at 500-1.

    69. Harry McAye says:

      Smart’s name will only be on that list because someone asked the bookie for a price on him. Oddschecker doesn’t seem to have this market priced up but that looks to me like Paddy Power so I think I will put a modest wager on JaBa. If Murphy stays I would expect to get it back.

    70. gerry parker says:

      @ Croompenstein.

      (Ian Smart/Billy Smart)

      Aye, same circus, different tent.


    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’d call this so called ‘leadership race’ a farce, as there is no such thing as Scottish Labour. Never has been and never will be, unless one forms in an independent Scotland. London has always called the shots, so the contenders are actually pseudo vestigial remnants, competing for a fake ornamental post.

      This exercise sums up British Labour for me. Dishonest and pointless. Who needs two Tory parties?

    72. Fiona says:


      I do not believe that. To me that is a tory narrative which will result in wipeout for labour in England just as it has in Scotland. I think it is true that more english voters are tory than Scottish voters, but I do not think that has every been Labour’s core constituency anywhere. You do need swing voters, but they are icing on the cake of core support. Alienate your core and you cannot win.

      The english labour voters as yet have nowhere obvious to go: and labour take that for granted, as they did in Scotland. It seems to be inconceivable to the labour party that what happened in Scotland can happen there too: but it can and I think it is only a matter of time.

      I believe that Labour will not survive anywhere in the UK unless they realise this. It is a matter of simple arithmetic, at one level: how many swing voters are there, and how will they make up for the loss of 40 scottish seats?

      Scotland has shown that there is an alternative, and I think that the fear mongering about the SNP derives from that: our plutocrats do not wish the english electorate to learn they can do something about what is happening. But they can, and the example is there now.

      I do not know where the english alternative will come from: but come it will, I am certain. There is a broad centre left constituency everywhere, just as there are centre right tories. None of them are represented in rUK at present, for they have only hard right parties to vote for, including the red tories. That will change, or so I believe

      If I have learned one thing, it is that consequences take a long time to follow and we are not very good at thinking in those time frames: eg. the consequences of selling off the council houses or implementing PFI were slow. But they are there to see now, if we choose to relate cause and effect

    73. Capella says:

      OT but fun
      The “Take Us With You Scotland” petition gathering momentum. Looks like the border will have to be redrawn south of Manchester. And why leave out Wales!

    74. Stoker says:

      @ call me dave (10.13am).

      Thank you for the effort put into that post.

      Very interesting indeed – they’re a complete and utter shambles.

      Lets clear them out of Scotland, at every level.

      Let the games commence.

    75. Auld Rock says:

      Interesting times ahead. But let me float this one past you all. At the moment Scottish Labour is the Branch Office, however it does allow Ian Murray as the lone survivor to ask the questions to the lone Scottish Tory at Scottish Questions. Now if Slab decide to go-it-alone and reform ‘The Independent Scottish Labour Party of Keir Hardie and Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham and are merely affiliated to London Labour would it still be right for Murray to lead at Scottish Questions? Discuss, your personal views to[at]

      Auld Rock,

      PS To all of you who contributed to our ‘Crowd Funding’ to get rid of Carmichael, thank you all, a safe Lib/Dem seat is now a marginal and Tavish and Liam’s jaikets are now on very shooglie pegs.

    76. Kenny says:

      Good article at Ponsonby Post, which I will not archive as this is a “real” (not corporate) media.

      “… it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that Murphy is laying the ground for some ex-MPs to be shoe-horned into Holyrood constituencies. Such a plan would introduce real political muscle into the Holyrood Labour group. It would also ensure London gained a foothold in the Scottish Parliament at a time when Nicola Sturgeon’s Government is engaged in a major constitutional struggle with Westminster.

      “All well and good you may say, but what’s in it for Murphy? I suspect a peerage of some sort for his services. Murphy is now as toxic in Scotland as the Tory party. The former Secretary of State gambled his career when he took over from Lamont. It was a gamble he lost spectacularly. All that remains for him is the House of Lords.

      “Jim will look after Jim until the end. That’s what he’s good at.”

    77. Fiona says:

      @Auld Rock

      I asked on a previous threat: how could a truly independent Scottish Labour Party, representative of the values of the Scottish people, affiliate with UK Labour? They would have nothing in common, and UK Labour would refuse, as they did cooperation with the SNP.

    78. Grizzle McPuss says:

      Is there any point to SLab reforming and attempting to move forward?

      Hasn’t anyone noticed, independence has happened here in Scotland (politically at least), we now just await the twitching of the dying SLab at the fringes so that we can focus on the real job ahead.

      And now we have Ian Murray promoting Kezia as a satisfactory replacement to Murphy, having at the very least “shown how she holds the Scottish Government to account week in & out”.

      Say’s it all…myopic…delusional…lost…

    79. G4jeepers says:

      Fkin hell, don’t know how long I can watch Ian Murray on my TV before I launch it oot the windae!

      Shadow SoS?

      I despair…

    80. How can anyone lead a vacuum?

    81. scotsbob says:

      Did anyone see the photo of Jackie Baillie that the BBC used last night?
      It must have been taken about 20 years ago. Either that or she has slimmed down a hell of a lot in the last week.

    82. JaMur says:

      More madness at Ladbrokes.!event_details?id=220441595

      Alex Ferguson is 100-1

      No Jackie tho?

    83. Macart says:

      As shrimp and others have said, Labour in Scotland need to figure out WHO they are, WHO they represent and WHAT they are for?

      They have spent so much time over the decades morphing to appease various demographics, expended so much effort in the toxic politics of fear and smear, that they effectively alienated themselves from the electorate. When they needed support, it was a support from those that they have othered, offended and betrayed. It was support from the people who created Labour in the first place. And still in their defeat they blamed those people, apparently we simply didn’t understand.

      No, we simply understood Labour only too well. People shifted their support because Labour no longer represented or reflected the interests of their electorate. That electorate simply found a home which they felt more comfortable with.

      The politicians, the policy wonks, the media commentators are scattering about blame for Labour’s demise in Scotland like a muck spreader in a park. They blame (naturally) the SNP, the public’s ability to comprehend their message, individuals within their own party and its affiliates. They haven’t looked in the one place they are most likely to find the answer… the mirror.

      The only people responsible for the demise of Labour and indeed all of the establishment parties in Scotland, is themselves. They chose to direct the electorate rather than be directed. They chose the politics of fear and manipulation. They chose to abandon founding ideals in favour of corporate compromise, pursuit of power and position for their own sake. They chose to turn on their own electorate and use any means at their disposal to break our society into alienated demographics which they could then play off against each other to suit the agenda of the day.

      They all did this, whilst mismanaging our lives and economy over a period of decades and now Karma is coming to town.

      The answer, if any party type is scanning this thread, is right in front of you. A heart sick and royally pissed off electorate have chosen to overhaul their politics without your permission. We don’t need it you see. Its our politics, our governance and people have simply decided, right across the political spectrum of Scotland, that you don’t speak for us any more.

    84. fred blogger says:

      yep, and i can see no reason why say the snp cannot constitute an affiliate party, in fact i feel this is vital to be done in time for 2020ge.

    85. One_Scot says:

      Every time I see Ian Murray, I can’t get the image of him wearing a jacket covered in Union Jacks out of my mind.

      The sight of him gives me the creeps.

    86. Chic McGregor says:

      Definitely no Smart money going on that one.

    87. G4jeepers says:



      Watching him after he won Ed South, when the interviewer held up a copy of his Murray leaflet (anyone got a copy of it) – he turned particularly nasty.

      I real eye opener.

    88. desimond says:

      Labour have copied the Tories over the years so no point in stopping now…time to appoint a BBC female with presentation skills but with no actual affiliation or membership to the party before joining up to be elected as appointed leader.

      Step forward Kaye Adams

    89. Chitterinlicht says:

      Blair Mcdougall sadly not making the running. He is a proven winner.

      Also why no hobbits or time-lords?

      Actually a time travelling hobbit might be what labour need.

    90. Chic McGregor says:

      Hope agent Kezia gets it. Remember how she became a political advisor to Lord Foulkes not long before his ‘deliberately’ gaff?

    91. Legerwood says:

      Cynicalhighlander @ 12.08

      ” How can anyone lead a vacuum?”

      Ask Schrödinger’s cat.

      The one that was alive and dead at the same time.

    92. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Cautionary note – if SLab does any kind of rebranding prior to announcing a leader, bookies may be justified in not paying out as the new outfit will, technically, be a different organisation.


    93. Chic McGregor says:

      “Actually a time travelling hobbit might be what labour need.”

      Or a dwarf, Lord Foulkes does look a bit like Ken Stott (sorry Ken).

    94. Chic McGregor says:

      Hobbit – Fraido Baggins?

    95. Fiona says:

      @ Chic McGregor

      I am NOT afraid o Baggins: brick hard, me 😉

    96. Fred says:

      Erchie MacPherson by a hairs-breadth on the outside! 🙂

    97. desimond says:

      Jackie Baillie….hahaha … Enough with the jokes folks. Now its ‘they should look at an interim’…how bad is it when prople seriously propose Jackie Peroni Baillie.

      Its like grouting your tiles while your house falls down.

      Loving the new soundbite “Kez”…used by her fans all morning on BBC..trying to soften her Harpy image already but that wont soften her Murphy style aggression so shes not the answer.

    98. Derick fae Yell says:

      I don’t even LIKE popcorn!

      Please make it stop!

    99. Robert Peffers says:

      @jimnarlene says: 17 May, 2015 at 9:32 am:

      “Does anyone know, how much popcorn has been sold in Scotland recently?”

      No selt tae me it’s no. It gies mi wind. The wee dug objects. Nae mair pop corn fir me. A wee cup o tea an a digestive biscuit wull dae fine.

    100. Rob James says:

      I can see the headlines: ‘Saint Jim – The Resurrection’

    101. Petra says:

      What a dilemma for Labour in Scotland. Left with a bunch of less than mediocre politicians……… absolute washouts in fact. The serial liar Baillie and Dugdale who’s too inexperienced / weak to run a Party. What happened to the John Smiths and Robin Cooks of the Party?

      The second problem that they have is in deciding if they are ‘Keir Hardie’ types or ‘Blairites’.

      Blairite values / ideology it’s clear is totally unacceptable to the vast majority of Scots. The Hardies won’t sit well with their right wing bosses down South.

      And while I’m on the subject every Scottish Labour Politician should be totally transparent and inform us of THEIR views on Trident, austerity, privatisation and so on instead of hiding under Westminsters brolly.

      Will Scots vote for decent, hardworking ‘Hardie’ politicians in future Elections knowing that the best outcome for them (if Labour ever wins again) will be a ‘Blairite’ Government ruling them from London. I can’t see it happening.

      The only way forward for the SBO of the Labour Party now is to join the SNP to fight for Scottish Independence.

      Jim Murphy wasn’t in the job for 5 months at all. He’s been a main player for years now. It didn’t work out for him (or did it?) and his parting gift, bully boy dictate, to the Party will be one of ensuring that the nuts and bolts of Westminster domination of Scotland are tightened. Then he’ll head off to the House of Lords or MI5 (or both).

    102. Betty Boop says:

      If I had that sort of choice in a restaurant, I would go elsewhere.

    103. steveasaneilean says:

      @Maccart 12:25 – you beat me to it mate but spot on as usual.

      Even now, 10 days later, they are still in denial. Murphy’s assault on Len McClusky for telling the truth tells you all you need know about the route (Not) Labour has chosen.

      They long since abandoned those that needed them most. So hell mend them.

    104. cirsium says:

      @Fiona, 11.36am

      Regarding your comment that consequences take a long time to follow, the following is an interesting essay on the consequences of having Blair as leader

    105. Grizzle McPuss says:

      @Chic McGregor

      On present form, the best that SLab will offer will be Baw-Baggins

    106. Stoker says:

      Popcorn? NAH, not for me, detest it.

      A big bag of Walkers MixUps, cheesy or spicy, and a mug of tea.

      Hard to beat, as they lose their seats.

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      If anyone really wants to know the score of what is going on behind the scenes with the Labour Party in both Scotland an the rUK I’ll point you in the right direction.

      It is the same old internal strife that began with NuLabour and Tony Blair. There were two factions then and there are two factions now. It used to be Blarites & Brownites and both of those guys are still around.

      DimJim made reference to things going on in the background, (those in the party out to get him). Remember Alex Rowley and that faction are Brownites and two of them resigned their front bench roles just a few days ago I listed some under watch this space. Keep an eye on Rowley.

    108. rongorongo says:

      One MP pointed the finger at the party’s field operations, the army of organisers deployed to gather and feed back voting data to the centre. ‘Up until 2.30 a.m. on Friday morning we were still being told we were going to win the election,’ he said. ‘I was told, “Don’t worry, we’re getting the samples from the counts fed back, and they’re showing it’s okay. The exit poll is wrong. Our numbers are still holding up.”

      From “Inside the Millibunker: the last days of Ed

    109. Dr Jim says:

      When old wood goes rotten you cut it out and replace it with good wood
      You don’t scrabble around trying to find a bit that’s OK to use again, you burn it

      The SNP will not, can not, stand in England
      The clue’s in the name
      The point of the party is Independence for Scotland by hook or by crook not to allow ourselves to be sucked into the Yookay to be absorbed yet again when we’re halfway out the door
      I for one don’t want to be British,UKish or any other constructed name Unionists want to come up with
      I’m looking forward to my Scottish Passport and being respected in the world for having left a warmongering, corrupt, racist union of Anti everybody except the rich politics

      A country who voted for the ethnic cleansing of the poor from London using the bedroom tax
      A country who only likes white immigrants as long as they contribute and don’t claim any human rights
      A country who whether they say so or not hates the very thought of Scottish people (David Camerons tactics proved that)
      A country where my own relatives phone me up to ask if i’m alright under that terrible Sturgeon woman because of the hordes of flag waving thugs in the streets (Media)
      A country where education is not a priority (you don’t want an electorate who will actually understand what’s going on)
      A country who have been kicked out of every other country in the world just for being Bad Bastirts

      Aaah I feel better for that

    110. Jim Thomson says:

      Does anyone have any idea how much McTernan was getting as his day rate?

      Was he being paid by results (I wish)?

      I’m sure I could offer the “Scottish” Labour Party a reasonable deal to unfankle the mess they’re in. Might take a while mind you, possibly 6 years.

      [uses fingers and toes for quick calculation] … about £2.1M would just about cover it – plus expenses of course (and I’d need weekends and public holidays off and 28 days annual leave).

      That’s probably about half of what McTernan would charge, by the way.

    111. Mealer says:

      Dr Jim 1.27pm

    112. Clarinda says:

      Currently listening to Labour MPs discussing the need for a separate English Labour Party. Jon Cruddas explaining that only by being independent can Labour in England re-capture votes from the Tories and UKIP.

      The accounting unit shambles here is pushing Labour to regroup under an English identity (who knew!) and leave what remains in Scotland to it’s own devices.

      EVEL – English Votes for English Labour anyone?

    113. ben madigan says:

      Clootie said at 9.19 am “We may have a “Farage moment” by Scottish Labour….by popular demand!”
      The Scottish branch office has already had a “reverse-Farage” moment.

    114. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Sorry for O/T

      But could we now refer to Labour in Scotland it’s true title-London Labour.

      And while we’re at it-Cameron’s Government-as the English Government,because to all intents and purposes that is what they are.

    115. Democracy Reborn says:

      Ian Smart has blogged on the SLAB leadership question.

      He doesn’t think any of those currently eligible to stand (which would be their sole MP, their MEPs and MSPs) are “viable candidates” (ouch). He opines that if Kez didn’t think she had the credentials months ago to be leader, she still doesn’t have them. He suggests a US-style ‘primary’ election where voters could express a preference as to who should be leader. And (get this), maybe the Daily Record could help with such a primary!

      For those who suggest that there should be some sort of ‘independent’ Scottish Labour Party, he rejects that outright. Independence would leave Scotland “economically impoverished and culturally crippled”.

    116. Famous15 says:

      Trident is genocide in waiting.

      Wake up Scotland!

      I have never ever been alarmist. This is a real and present danger!

    117. Grouse Beater says:

      Here we go, here we go, here we go!

    118. JBS says:

      @Kenny 17th May, 2015 at 11:49 am

      You quote Ponsonby:

      “…it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that Murphy is laying the ground for some ex-MPs to be shoe-horned into Holyrood constituencies.”

      He can’t mean…surely not…no…Curran back in Holyrood?

    119. icyspark says:

      A previous life Labour voter, prior to the GE, said to me:

      “I now realise, after all this time, that I was never pro Labour. I was anti-Tory”

      This one line, for me, says so much in so few words.

    120. Fiona says:

      @ Cirsium. Great paper, and very well worth reading. Thanks for that

      From my point of view, I think one of the great ironies of our age is that the two most “successful” leaders have both completely destroyed their parties: Thatcher killed the one nation tory party and left only plutocracy, which does not represent ordinary people in any way, though in england they have been slow to recognise that: and Blair killed the Labour party, which has not yet found a way of reinventing itself at all.

      The slow realisation I referred to above is coming for the tories too, I think. You cannot rule on behalf of the elite without the people eventually crying enough. That will come from their core support just as much as will labour’s demise: it will take longer, is all

    121. Tattie-bogle says:

      teddy bear’s Corky is not in the betting Jeezo

    122. Craig Pz says:

      Jackie Baillie has been close to the leadership for a few years now but is too smart to stand up herself for such a thankless task. I can see Labours careerists hiding behind Kezia Dugdale and waiting in hope for a time when Labour are electable again.

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      As Famous15 says.

      Why this whistleblower’s warnings should spell the death knell for Trident

    124. biecs says:

      “culturally crippled”?

      I do like the idea of the Labour Party separating themselves and setting up an English Labour Party.

      SLab: “What about us?”
      ELab: “Sorry, did anyone hear something? No, I thought not”.

    125. Wuffing Dug says:

      Dr Jim @ 1.27

      Fuckin A

      Have the same concerns.

      The uk is finished.

      We need to get out of this bloody mess not get further embroiled in it.

      Bad bastirts indeed.

    126. Grizzle McPuss says:

      @Cameron Brodie

      How long before the whistleblower is found with slashed wrists beneath a remote tree and the Trident issue becomes a part of a long drawn out gerrymandered inquiry?

    127. Chic McGregor says:

      “Ask Schrödinger’s cat.

      The one that was alive and dead at the same time.”

      That’s a 10 if you were referring to Murphy’s leadership quantum status.

    128. Finlay McLean says:

      kez is being anointed leader by bbc in Scotland.

      What quid pro quo for this favour?

      What amazes me is the denial on past mistakes such as Iraq or voting for cuts continues and the tired old BS of re-engaging with voters and stopping referendums, etc, etc..

      Nothing regards helping people out of poverty, ending austerity, helping people into jobs or not spending obscene amounts of money on trident.

    129. Pete says:

      The MS media and Labour in England now seem to be united in their message that Labour didn’t win because they didn’t move to the right to gain the centre ground. Are they deliberatly ignoring the elephant in the room?

      35% of voters in England chose not to vote and an estimated 15- 20% of the populaton are not even registered. Not only is this deeply damaging for democracy it shifts the perseption of the centre ground in favour of those who do vote.

      Labour cannot win on a left wing agenda in England without reaching out to the half of the population who currently do not feel represented in main stream politics. Just as they cannot win in Scottland without reaching out to the 45% who voted yes. In England more people chose not to vote at all than voted for the party curently in power.

      Bringing down new labour and replacing it with a genuine left wing / socialist party is the first step to dismantleing the neo liberal consensus in politics and the MS media. We are close to achieving this in Scotland, we need to continue to educate and expand the voting base and unite the left before the holywood elections next year if we are to make further progress.

    130. John Moss says:

      Just a note to say that I’m going to miss Jim and that his potential successors should look on the bright side;

    131. Chic McGregor says:

      Here’s a real outsider. A really dark horse but a GG which could just come up on the inside track.

      George Galloway gets a Lordship of convenience and simultaneously rejoins SLAB.

      Impossible? Not quite.

    132. Terry says:

      I’ve just read the trident whistleblower article in the Sunday herald. It terrified me. This report should be spread as far as possible.

    133. call me dave says:

      Speaking on BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics, Mr McCluskey said he understood Mr Murphy was “hurting” but claimed his “arrogance” was part of why Labour had failed in Scotland.
      He said: “He represented the ideology that has completely alienated (voters) … not just in the election, not just in the (independence) referendum, but for years.

      “Since 2008 the SNP have been gaining ground and Scottish Labour have displayed an arrogance that unfortunately led us to where we were at the general election.
      “The majority of my members in Scotland voted SNP. What I predicted would happen with Jim Murphy unfortunately came to pass.” ‘Pressure will grow’

      Mr McCluskey issued a warning that Unite’s affiliation to Labour could be reconsidered unless it showed it was the “voice of ordinary working people, that they are the voice of organised labour”.
      “It is up to them. If they don’t, if they kind of inject more disillusionment in the party then the pressure will grow from our members to rethink. It is certainly already growing in Scotland.
      “We have a rules conference in my union in July and there’s already a number of resolutions from Scotland seeking to release them from the rule that kind of limits us just to the Labour Party.”

      Minority sport for non-sky viewers.

      Heads up 15:30hrs QoS V Rangers

    134. Chic McGregor says:

      Anyone signed up the rights for a new movie


      Tag line:

      “Its time to decide which of these two monster egos brought down SLAB. That time is NOW.”

    135. Piemonteis says:

      The smart move from Labour would be to appoint Malcolm Chisholm as leader up until the election, since he’ll be stepping down anyway. That way, they don’t “burn” any of their members who is hoping for a long-term career in the Labour party.

      Chisholm would be in the Parliament to question the SNP at FNQ’s until the election, and would stand aside to allow a real leadership contest to take place after next year’s presumed defeat. His reconciliatory approach could even rub off on the rest of the party.

      However, Labour and the “smart move” have proved incompatible in recent years.

    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      Grizzle McPuss
      Why does Dr. David Kelly spring to mind? ;(

      Dr David Kelly: 10 years on, death of scientist remains unresolved for some

      The betrayal of Dr David Kelly, 10 years on
      Andrew Gilligan, the journalist at the centre of the ‘dodgy dossier’ row, reflects on the shocking facts that have emerged since Dr David Kelly’s death

    137. Chic McGregor says:


      “The smart move from Labour would be to appoint Malcolm Chisholm as leader up until the election”

      Shhh, haud yer wheesht. 😉

    138. Ken MacColl says:

      Oh Dear,

      Once the party of Red Clydeside now representing, exclusively BTW, Blue Morningside

    139. Alex Waugh says:

      I may be being a bit gung-ho on this but I find it quite credible that Murphy will try, with his cronies, to slide as many of his ilk as possible into Holyrood next year; thereby giving London a ‘foothold’, just as Ponsonby suggests. It would be in keeping with ‘Scottish’ New Labour’s betrayal of their history, of their principles and of their country.

      The gung-ho bit comes now – the fight now is to totally eradicate New Labour in Scotland: every MSP that hasn’t the guts to be Scottish first and Labour second; every crooked Labour councillor with their brown envelopes and pals in the building trade; every lickspittle, Blairite, warmongering, London-loving toady; every last one of them – clear them out, banish them, wash out the whole dung-bespattered stable of them. With few exceptions they are a cancer on the Scottish body politic. Every seat in Holyrood, every place on a Scottish council must go to someone who is NOT New Labour. Not a single list MSP for them, not so much as a job as a doorman at the parliament; get rid of all of them. Rout them – drag their snouts out of the expenses trough, prise the backhanders out of their sweaty, grasping fists and send them packing and, if it can be proven that they are corrupt and dishonest, jail them. Use the votes that the working class fought for and suffragettes died for to burn their party; bury it and salt the ground. In doing so, Scotland will be doing the remnants of the true Labour movement a favour – perhaps only from the ashes of total destruction can their party rise anew but one thing is sure, it cannot rise from the embers of Murphy, McTiernan, Curran and Project Fear.

      Although I may feel sorry for people like Malcolm Chisholm, they too deserve a better party than the one they have now. I am more angry at New Labour than I ever could be at the Tories. The latter are exactly what they appear to be; the party of capital and vested financial interests. They may be heartless, evil monsters but they are, at least, consistent monsters. My fury is not only mine but that of my father and my father’s father, people who were socialists and trade unionists – as am I. New Labour has nothing to say to us but, by god, we have plenty to say to them.

    140. Chic McGregor says:

      Bravo Alex. Superb post.

    141. paul gerard mccormack says:

      Here’s quite a green idea. Why don’t the Slabbers just once and for all ditch that pap about socialism and the like and reinvent/recycle themselves as the new improved (S)SDP just like they wanted to do in the eighties? Morningside would be thrilled – a political party with a social conscience? There’s got to be a market for it, surely? There, that’s their way back in. Brilliant!

    142. steveasaneilean says:

      Yup – kibda sums it all up when you realise the only MP (Not) Labour has left in Scotland represents the most affluent area oin Scotland.

    143. IAB says:

      Murphy will try a Farage

    144. BJ says:

      How can a Labour Party in Scotland ever be independent? They will always be tied to London within the UK and if it was possible to achieve an independent Labour Party I wouldn’t vote for any of the ones we have just got rid off.

      None of them were fit for purpose.

    145. Schrödinger's cat says:

      A vacuum you say, in 11 months time, tactical voting will wipe out the remaining unionists in holyrood, the councils will follow shortly after. This cull isn’t over

      Bt2 indyref2 will be lead by john barrowman wailing along to a Bowie cover version of No more borders “hit” single

      Labour are fighting over a cadaver, they mistake the involuntary twitching as signs of life but the box is open and the cat is out of the bag there is no longer any uncertainty, dead is dead.

      Once we have finished with labour, they may as we’ll meet in a room above a pub for all they will have left to discuss 🙂

    146. Alex Waugh says:

      Re Cameron B Brodie @ 3:23.

      Why is Alastair Campbell not in jail?

    147. Chic McGregor says:

      That’ll be “The Doo Inn” I suppose.

    148. fraise says:

      Whats the betting on the 2 pandas running for leader/deputy. They come from a left wing upbringing and are toxic free of Slab.

    149. No matter who takes over the leadership role in Scotland they face a severe shortfall in government funding as will the LibDems unless they can get some very rich donors on board. Every MP gets £660,000 spread over the 5 year term, insolvency beckons.

    150. Oneironaut says:

      I REALLY hope Ian Smart gets the job…

      Now there’s a man who will pretty much utterly destroy what little remains of Labour the first time he opens his mouth as party leader! 😀

    151. JGedd says:

      @cirsium 1.13pm

      A really excellent essay. Thanks for the link. Would recommend anyone to follow the link to be reminded of the sheer wickedness of the Blair-Brown project. Remember also that both made much of their Christian beliefs – Blair, a Catholic convert and Brown, the son of the manse.

      It’s the Labour party of their ‘modernisation’ project which London Labour and their media friends wish to revive. The haste with which Mandelson, the chief necromancer, rushed to shovel dirt over the recently dead Milliband leadership shows them at their unedifying worst.

      I can’t believe that the English electorate wants two ruthless parties of business vying for their votes. I hope that some signs of grassroots stirring against the present Westminster system results in a changed landscape with real political representation for the disadvantaged.

    152. Macart says:

      @Alex Waugh

      Well said Alex.

    153. Legerwood says:

      Chic McGregor @2.45

      “That’s a 10 if you were referring to Murphy’s quantum status”

      Absolutely: he’s alive but his career is dead.

      He had a superposition as Leader of Labour in Scotland which collapsed as soon as he interacted with, and was observed by, the real world.

      Quantum theory as applied to Labour – fits it to a ‘T’

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alex Waugh @ 4:06 pm.
      He’s protected by the Establishment, same as all the pedophiles? 🙁

    155. Stoker says:

      Scottish Parliament Elections – Thursday 5 May 2016.

      Scottish Local Council Elections – Thursday 4 May 2017.

      Lets wipe the lot of them out.

      Oh, and btw, at some point over these next 2-years we are going to be having some sort of Hokey-Cokey, In-Out, Shindig.

    156. There is nothing so forlorn than an atheists prayer, but please god you gave us Murphy could you just push the boat out a wee bit more and grant us Bailie.

    157. Grizzle McPuss says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Thanks for the links.

      My point isn’t about ‘grassy knoll’ conspiracy re: David Kelly, it’s the metaphor concerning the general slime that accompanies any situation like this where the big boys are being undermined by the peasants.

      The cynic in me wonders what next will occur in this matter?

      I have no trust whatsoever in the actions of WM…

    158. Helena Brown says:

      Stoker @ 4.50pm Let us do this. We need to give them a damned good smack.

    159. Stoker says:

      @ Helena Brown (5.08pm).

      Nothing, but nothing, would make me more happier.

      Well, apart from independence.

    160. Fiona says:

      @ Helena Brown and Stoker

      Would be nice, but I think it likely there will be a dead cat bounce

    161. desimond says:


      Lets not forget Blair was an Anglican until he LEFT office..thanks to openly accepted discrimination against Catholics being P.M

    162. velofello says:

      What we have here is arguably a pooling of resources, as so emphasised by Rt Hon Prime Minister Cameron:-

      The sole Tory MP in Scotland, wee Mundy, needs a backup to run the Scotland Office – the office that we don’t need nor want, and at an expenditure we could find better uses for. So Westminster despatches Lord Dunlop of Poll Tax to the Scotland Office.

      Murphy, staunch Unionist,needs support in his vote of confidence crisis. So Westminster despatches Meta Ramsay to provide her vote in his support.

      Maybe it is not in fact pooling of resources, more like “gunboat” diplomacy, to demonstrate to Scotland where power and the scope and intent to meddle, lies.

      Lies: I wonder how the investigation into Frenchgate is progressing, at the Scotland Office. A busy place eh?

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      Grizzle McPuss
      ‘Grassy knoll’? Now that was a proper conspiracy. 🙂

    164. CameronB Brodie says:

      ‘Grassy knoll’? Now that was a proper conspiracy. 🙂

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, my internet’s on the fritz.

    166. Graham Macqueen says:

      @Rob James 1:07pm

      Maybe that should read: Saint Jim – The Erection?

    167. Stoker says:

      @ Fiona.
      You may very well be correct BUT i can’t see any possibility of that happening any time soon, unless we are caught sitting on our erchies and taking things for granted.

      No-matter how much L!ebore try to dress themselves up, at the end of the day, the public will see they are still the same old tired fur coat and no knickers brigade.

      We need to work just as hard over the next 2-years as we did in the run up to GE15 and take absolutely nothing for granted.

    168. Bob Mack says:

      I thought the dead cat bounce you were talking about was a new dance.Like the Slosh or the Alley Cat.
      Showing my age there.

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @velofello says: 17 May, 2015 at 5:46 pm:

      “Maybe it is not in fact pooling of resources, more like “gunboat” diplomacy, to demonstrate to Scotland where power and the scope and intent to meddle, lies.”

      Any of you old enough to remember The Amethyst Incident, also known as the Yangtze Incident, will remember how the Chinese deal with Gunboat diplomacy.

      In 1949 it involved the British Royal Navy ship HMS Amethyst being trapped on the Yangtze River for three months, during the Chinese Civil War.

      We could do a River Forth incident or better still a Clyde Base Incident, stop their big Willy waving for three months and teach those, “EVEL”, Britnats a lesson.

      It was quite a story in its day.

    170. proudscot says:

      On a serious note, as a committed SNP member/supporter and someone who believes in democracy, I would like to see a meaningful opposition in our Holyrood Parliament. All governments the world over need to be held to account and have their policies and legislation properly debated and scrutinised. The current Labour group in Holyrood are incapable of doing this, mainly because most of them too influenced by their hatred of the SNP.

      Elsewhere in our parliament’s makeup, the Tories contain some MSPs of quality and ability, but they are too tied to their Westminster worship to provide a genuine Scottish perspective to their politics. The few LibDems under Rennie are also overly influenced by his obvious dislike of the SNP and opposition to Scottish independence, which I find strange for a party which has been banging on about “Home Rule” for the past 100 years!

      In the near future I hope Patrick Harvie’s Greens can gain support and sufficient MSPs and perhaps along with a resurgent SSP, could provide a block of genuine political opposition until the Labour Group decide to become autonomous and earn the right to name themselves “Scottish Labour”. Final suggestion for them to consider, how about electing Jenny Marra as their leader, if she agrees to stand? She’s articulate, photogenic and doesn’t display the same level of arrogance, verbosity and puerile “SNP bad” attitude as Dugdale.

    171. Yoda says:

      Just a wee thought…
      Surely if labour is unlikely to win back yes voters then it would make more sense to try and move over to the centre to appeal to previous lib dem & Tory voters. That way scottish labour would be able to align its policies with uk labour, which would greatly help labour’s prospects in England.

    172. James123 says:

      In Stephen Daisley’s latest analysis of SLAB he says of Jim Murphy:

      Murphy was the man for the job
      a proven winner who brought Westminster calibre to Scottish politics
      a genuine man of the centre-left
      a polished media delivery
      one of the most skilled political operators of his generation
      a successful Scottish Secretary

      Hahahah that’s hilarious, oh wait he’s serious…

    173. Gary45% says:

      So these are the candidates for the SLab leadership?
      obviously Smart is a joke inclusion

      They still don’t get it.


    174. YESGUY says:

      Stirring stuff Alex.

      I will vote for any party with an indpendence referendum mandate . Unionist parties are all over the place. They are weak and their fear tactics are old news. easily ignored.

      We vote and England chooses the party that rules. We all get that now so if we want a party we choose to govern us the ONLY way is indi.

      SIMPLES 😀

    175. wingman 2020 says:

      Surely Baillie is 88/1 ?

    176. Bill McLean says:

      Robert – when I was an ankle snapper in Stenhouse Street, Cowdenbeath, out next door neighbours were called Bywaters,
      Mr Bywaters was a sailor from Portsmouth who had married a local lass called Nan Carmichael. He was on the Amethyst and did the Yangtze Jiang trip. He went on the deployment with black hair and came back grey. All for nothing!

    177. Phronesis says:

      At the heart of this is that New Labour,its successor the Coalition Administration and now the completely disinhibited Conservative Govt believe that social inequalities are inevitable and poverty is a life choice.
      Such is the strength of this belief that George Osborne will push through with cuts to public spending that ensures that UKOK is on track(since records began) to spend a lower % of its GDP on public goods than any other comparable European country. We even have the far right Republican Tea Party stating that the UK is a country that they would like to emulate.
      The mantra is ‘elitism is efficient’, ‘exclusion is necessary’,’prejudice is natural’,’greed is good’ and ‘despair is inevitable’-aided and abetted by a compliant MSM. What a despicable legacy fronted by a destructive, lazy political elite.
      There is a ray of hope now- we have the fab 56 and a political movement in Scotland that espouses the exact opposite. Labour are beleaguered, befuddled, belittled and now beneath any electoral support here- their failings are so profound that they have no place in the forward looking YES movement.

    178. Rock says:

      Murphy will do a Farage and unresign within a month.

    179. gus1940 says:

      Labour must think that we are as gullible and naive as the poor souls who were conned in to voting NO on 18/9 by the lies, threats and scare stories that were excreted over them 24/7 in the run up to REF1.

      This just another example of a typical Labour Fudge.

      Who in their right mind doesn’t believe that Creepy Jim agreed to resign in a month in advance of the vote of no confidence vote if they agreed to support him.

      Once the vote had been achieved he announced out of the blue to the alleged surprise of the exec that he would resign in a month – Aye Right.

      Given the lack of talent in Scottish Labour what’s the bet that if he does hand in his resignation in a month it will be rejected a la Farage with a desperate plea from the Executive of ‘Don’t go Jim Scottish Labour needs you’ which will be followed by our hero being dragged reluctantly into withdrawing his resignation as a great personal sacrifice in order to ‘save’ the party from oblivion.

    180. Graeme says:

      I don’t post here much but I read regularly

      Someone earlier mentioned how all the words of patriotism and proud Scot has come from the unionist side we never hear it from the Yes/pro independence contingent and it’s something I’ve noticed as well

      It seems to me the reason we in the Yes movement don’t mention it is because we don’t need to convince ourselves we’re patriotic and proud Scots (that goes without saying) but they do that’s why so many of them look so miserable and uncomfortable because deep down they know they’re ("Tractor" - Ed)s and struggling to convince themselves otherwise the rest (ie Jim Murphy) just don’t care

      I know the word “("Tractor" - Ed)” is a strong word but I can’t think of any other and that goes for every so called Scot who voted NO in the referendum I think of myself as a forgiving person and I can give them some latitude out of fear and the misinformation that was fed to them by better together and the MSM but I’ll never forgive them a second time

    181. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian Murray at 20/1?

      I would have thought the MP for Morningside/Waitrose would be on shorter odds.

      Ah, Scottish Labour: from Red Clydeside to Red Camargue Organic Rice. A pathetic slide down the razor blade of their utter lack of principle.

      Feeling a bit peevish tonight. We caused an earthquake last week but are still talking about these nonentities. I hope in the next two years we can remove them from the political life of our country.


    182. gus1940 says:

      I see that the BBC PQ news site is carrying what they call’A Profile Of Jim Murphy’ – for god’s sake they have been pumping out profiles of Creepy Jim for months – why do we need another one.

      I bet Deputy Dug is now wishing that her application for a job with The SNP had been successful – even now she might have been occupying an SNP seat at Holyrood or even one of the Green Benches at WM.

    183. brewsed says:

      There is something slightly oxymoronic in the name “Ian Smart”. Take, for example, his thoughts on how to elect a new leader on where he suggests, “We select of new based on a system of constituency primaries where anybody prepared to declare an intention to vote Labour next May gets to have a vote. We could look to the Daily Record to assist in this process.”

      Apart the grammatical gibberish, I will repeat the salient part: “…anybody prepared to declare an intention to vote Labour next May gets to have a vote.”

      You couldn’t make it up.

    184. Grouse Beater says:

      I see that the BBC PQ news site is carrying what they call ’A Profile Of Jim Murphy’

      Should it not be under the category – ‘Scottish political failures and nonentities’?

    185. Bruce says:

      Graeme – I see plenty of Yes folk banging on about patriotism. And plenty like yourself shitting out the old “tractor” pish.

    186. Grouse Beater says:

      Bruce: I see plenty of Yes folk banging on about patriotism.

      Good for them

      I take it your patriotism lies elsewhere.

    187. Rock says:

      Alex Waugh,

      “Although I may feel sorry for people like Malcolm Chisholm, they too deserve a better party than the one they have now.”

      Why does anyone feel sorry for Malcolm Chisholm?

      If he had any sense, he would have come out for independence.

      He was even more bitter than his fellow Labour MSPs when attacking Alex Salmond during the independence debate before the referendum.

      We should not have any sympathy for anyone who remains within Labour’s Scottish branch office.

      They have had their chance and have shown that their preference is for Westminster rule over Scotland, something we want to end at the earliest opportunity.

      Any “independent” Labour party in Scotland will just be a sham to try to dupe voters into voting (Westminster) Labour again.

    188. Gary says:

      He would be the STUPIDEST choice they could make. So that makes him a sure thing, right?

    189. JLT says:

      Just when I was so sad to see Jim Murphy go, you then have to spoil us with this wonderful list.

      Barring the SNP doing anything daft, and not placing any curses on it, but by God, I can see the SNP barnstorming Holyrood again.

      Who seriously is going to be the opposition in Scottish Labour, let alone the other parties? Ruthie …aye right. Let’s see how she does once Cameron and Co begin to cut loose with no-one to stop them at Westminster.

    190. Graeme says:

      Bruce says:
      17 May, 2015 at 7:43 pm

      “Graeme – I see plenty of Yes folk banging on about patriotism.
      And plenty like yourself shitting out the old “tractor” pish.”

      Well I’m only going by what I see personally Bruce that’s all it’s just an opinion

    191. Finnz says:

      There is of course only one name that can demonstrate the blind idiocy that is required for this job

      Step forward Duncan Hothershall.

      Recently tweeted his joy at Murphy surviving the vote of confidence only to delete it minutes later once it’s dawned on him Murphy was to resign.

      That kind of devotion to a loser mindset is critical to his successful appointment.

    192. Dr Jim says:

      People keep saying “you can’t have a one party state”

      Why not, if they’re good, why would we want political parties who are Unionist when what they want to do is keep us in a Union we want out of

      I don’t see that any opposition is good opposition just because it exists, it surely has to have something to offer and we don’t have that at the moment nor does it look promising for the future when all you have are the Greens and SSP maybe, in which case we may as well bring in the local high school kids for debating questions

      They might do a better job (probably would)

      So until the calibre of politicians rises, a SNP one party state will suit me quite nicely
      At least we all know who they are and who they answer to

      Confusion to the enemy!!!

    193. ben madigan says:

      Some more info on the faslane submariner whistleblower,
      If what he says is true, it’s certainly a pretty dangerous place!

    194. Stoker says:

      Rock wrote:
      “We should not have any sympathy for anyone who remains within Labour’s Scottish branch office.”

      I’m with you 100% on that one, Rock.
      They’ll soon learn how “bayoneting the wounded” is really done.
      We must aim to wipe out every last one of them at every level.
      They are a prohibitive plague on the future prosperity and
      advancement of Scotland. This country is ours, not London’s.

    195. boris says:

      The SNP MP’s should table a motion: That the official opposition party representing Scotland should be the Party that commands the most number of sitting MP’s. Any vote should be restricted to Scottish MP’s.

    196. The Rough Bounds says:

      The thing that bothers me is why did it take the Scots so long to waken up to Labour. They should have been put through this particular meat grinder of an election half a century ago at least: perhaps even longer. R.B. Cunninghame Graham realised what was happening as far back as the 1920’s and dropped Labour like a hot brick.

      One other thing. People have begun to yap on about Scotland becoming a ‘one Party State’. You only get a one Party State if you don’t have democratic elections. It’s hardly the fault of the SNP if every other political party is so crass.

    197. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Speech: “Friends, brothers, countrymen, lend me your ears”
      By Anon Y. Mous (With apologies to William Shakespeare)
      (from the play ‘Jim Murphy’, spoken by Len McCluskey)

      Friends, brothers, countrymen, lend me your ears;
      I come to bury Murphy, not to praise him.
      The EVEL (English Votes for English Labour) that men do lives after them;
      The good is oft interred with their bones;
      So let it be with Murphy.

      The noble Davidson
      Hath told you Murphy was ambitious:
      If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
      And grievously hath Murphy answer’d it.
      Here, under leave of Davidson and the rest–
      For Davidson is an honourable man;
      So are they all, all honourable men–
      Come I to speak in Murphy’s funeral.

      He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
      But Davidson says he was ambitious;
      And Davidson is an honourable man.
      He hath brought many celebrities up to Glasgow
      Whose pay cheques did the general coffers empty:
      Did this in Murphy seem ambitious?

      When that the poor have cried, Murphy hath wept as the crocodile:
      Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
      Yet Davidson says he was ambitious;
      And Davidson is an honourable man.

      You all did see that on the Irn-Bru crate
      a 100 times, in 100 towns, he was presented a kingly egg,
      Which he did 99 times refuse: was this ambition?
      Yet Davidson says he was ambitious;
      And, sure, he is an honourable man.

      I speak not to disprove what Davidson spoke,
      But here I am to speak what I do know.
      You all did love him once, not without cause:
      What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
      O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
      And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
      My heart is NOT in the coffin there with Murphy,
      And I need not pause till it come back to me.

    198. Stoker says:

      @ Paula Rose (8.56pm).

      Thanks for that link, that really does need to be spread and passed on to as many folk as possible.

      If the media are blanking his story, as i have no doubt they are,
      then it comes down to us to make sure the public are fully alerted.

    199. Training Day says:


      Well said sir. Labour has no future in Scotland and those deluded apparatchiks who think they do neither merit nor deserve any sympathy or compassion.

      Let us remove them once and for all from our country.

    200. manandboy says:

      2014-2017 is the shifting season for tectonic plates. Bit to go before things settle down for a while. But Indy will be the big one shortly after that.

      Can’t see a Labour recovery in that time scale – the opposite in fact. But can see a new offensive from Westminster as part of their neo-Liberal right wing rampage against the lower classes and the disposable Scots.

      The Tory dream of a Britain without welfare is drawing closer but also a Tory monopoly of Westminster for decades to come. England may have decided that they can live with that dream in preference to anything Labour might offer even if they do somehow manage to get back on the rails again.

      Independence will shatter that dream however, hence the reason for the new offensive against the SNP & it’s supporters.

      Against that background, Murphy has less significance than my dog sneezing.

    201. Louis B Argyll says:

      The UK & USA already are ONE PARTY states, each having ONE ESTABLISHED ORTHODOXY disguised as TWO MAIN PARTIES.

      Liberal and left-leaning establishments are neutralised and revolution is turned to war.

      Anglo-Saxon politics has held out against progressive change since THE MIDDLE AGES.

      Scotland was there, back then, during Englands first empire building exercise Your attitude towards us today, has HARDY EVOLVED.

      We want the same now. You have your piece of the island, we’ll have ours.

    202. John M?Lean says:

      I have read many comments over time, but , over time observing & listening to Murphy & his sychophants he is playing the ‘no my fault ‘ defence…..aka SODDI…Some Other Dude Did It.
      Then coming back as a list MSP & practising his dark arts behind the scenes at Holyrood ….
      The rat has avoided the trap

    203. I have tried twice to archive Paula’s link but it comes up network error both times. copies are important folks.

    204. Rock says:


      “We must aim to wipe out every last one of them at every level. They are a prohibitive plague on the future prosperity and advancement of Scotland. This country is ours, not London’s.”


      Someone in their Scottish branch went as far as to claim that even Keir Hardy or Maxton would have lost.

      They want to tar these true socialists with the same brush as those who went into bed with the Tories to keep Scotland a colony under a Westminster viceroy.

      They have no shame, Malcolm Chisholm included. They are all UK OK Better Together.

    205. a2 says:

      It says “Next permanently appointed” 🙂

    206. Archived the cached version without pics for ref.

    207. Chic McGregor says:


      “Why does anyone feel sorry for Malcolm Chisholm?

      If he had any sense, he would have come out for independence.”

      I guess it is because he has seemed to put Scotland first on occasion, has old Labour values and is opposed to Trident.

      However, you are right, he and others like Katy, Henry etc should have jumped while they had the chance.

      That window of opportunity has gone, as I am sure a few will discover to their cost.

      I’m sure London Labour will try to displace ‘lightweights’ from Holyrood lists for the now unemployed SLAB ‘elite’. Who are they going to target? Those with traditional Labour ‘issues’ and/or those who consider Scotland at all. Some of those might well now look to the SNP but will be told where to go.

    208. Rock says:

      Training Day,

      “Labour has no future in Scotland and those deluded apparatchiks who think they do neither merit nor deserve any sympathy or compassion.

      Let us remove them once and for all from our country.”

      For their own benefit, they kept Scotland in poverty, ignorance and division for fifty years or more and want to continue with more of the same.

      Not a single Scottish branch MP, MSP or MEP came out in favour of independence.

      I can’t understand how independence supporters posting here could have any sympathy for any of them.

      With Pravda GB’s full support, they will now try to create a sham “independent” party.

      And get saturation level coverage so that the good acts of 56 SNP MPs will be kept hidden from the public.

    209. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dr Jim (8.30) –

      ‘I don’t see that any opposition is good opposition just because it exists, it surely has to have something to offer and we don’t have that at the moment nor does it look promising for the future when all you have are the Greens and SSP maybe, in which case we may as well bring in the local high school kids for debating questions

      They might do a better job (probably would)’

      The ‘calibre’ of politician in Holyrood is going to improve when the SNP government generally, and Nicola Sturgeon in particular, are required to answer real questions rather than anticipate McTernan-prepped soundbites being teed-up for the Pacific Quay treatment.

      I can’t speak for the Greens, but please be assured that the SSP has plenty of folk who are capable of stringing sentences together, and can even ask questions. I’m quite sure NS would welcome real debate with adults who stand for something than be forced to take part in the national embarrassment which SLab and the other unionist parties have made of FMQs.

    210. Stoker says:

      @ PR & CH.

      I’ve bookmarked all 3 versions for spreading around.


    211. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “People keep saying “you can’t have a one party state”

      Why not, if they’re good, why would we want political parties who are Unionist when what they want to do is keep us in a Union we want out of”

      Totally agree.

      We live in a sham democracy where “bleeding heart” liberals like Poly Toynbee of the Guardian act as war mongerers and Establishment puppets.

      Did we not see the “liberal” Guardian exposed as part and parcel of the Establishment during the referendum campaign?

      SNP politicians are doing an excellent job and I too would be happy for as many of them as possible to be elected in 2016.

      The ego of Scottish Greens leader Patrick Harvey would make it impossible for anything to be achieved if the SNP had to rely on his backing.

      True democracy and multi party politics will have to wait until we are fully independent.

      Happy Norwegian independence day to any Norwegians reading this blog.

    212. velofello says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood: If the SSP have good potential candidates excellent. We need Ying and Yang dynamism in politics, regrettably with Scottish Labour we got Dung.

      Milibrand(?) will go down in political history branded(?) as the silliest politico with his “no deal with the SNP, I’d rather…”. Well he got his preference and lost his job and reputation.

    213. James123 says:

      Frankie Boyle’s Election Autopsy

      Very funny, Frankie at his best.

    214. ben madigan says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:Speech: “Friends, brothers, countrymen, lend me your ears”
      By Anon Y. Mous (With apologies to William Shakespeare)

      Hope you enjoy this one brian as much as I liked yours!! Great minds and all that!!


    215. Thepnr says:

      Ian Smart is someone the Labour party could do without, he alienates people with his caustic remarks and idiotic drivel.

      If the Scottish people are to gain their Independence in the shortest possible time then we aught to learn that lesson.

      Support is garnered by being inclusive and welcoming to the cause those of any political persuasion and none.

    216. Lollysmum says:

      Wow, just wow- a Shakespeare clone in our midst-well close anyway 🙂

    217. Fireproofjim says:

      No one is more anti Trident than me, but I hae ma doots about this whistleblower.
      He was a very low ranked sailor, was only aboard for three months and then deserted. His description of odd noises in the night and grumbling shipmates is pretty unconvincing.
      It needs a bit more than that. Anyway getting rid of Trident will be a political decision and not a result of one disaffected sailor.

    218. msean says:

      O/T as to the fox thing,I understand why the SNP don’t vote on English only stuff,but when a Tory government uses an English based mandate to impose lords on us re the Scotland Office,then it seems only fair to return to stop said Tory voters ripping foxes apart.

      If they get off with trying to lift the ban in England,they will no doubt attempt it in Scotland in some way.

    219. K1 says:

      O/T This is very good and well worth the long read, there is an embedded video within this article wherein Karen Hudes elaborates about the ‘theatre’ of what we are being presented with from the media across the globe, which is owned by the elites. But it’s her credentials; of having worked for the World Bank as a lawyer (she is a whistleblower, fired in 2009), and her insight into the true reality of what is taking place with the ‘crooks’ who have taken over the financial institutions on a global scale, combined with her remarkable upbeat and positive outlook about what we can do about it. That makes it worth watching.

      From what she says, it would seem that what we are doing is playing our part as the ‘good guys’ in this grand fight, and it really does seem that there is a global network of whistleblowers from within the very depths of governments who are trying to stop this. But we as individuals also have the power to stop this criminal cartel. I think that’s what we are trying to do here in Scotland, in essence.

      I have to say…some of what she says comes across as confirming what David Icke has been driving at for decades. But, because of her background coming from corporate banking et al, it may in some ways reach those who are put off by what they consider ‘conspiracies’ and ‘kooks’, as she presents as a legitimate and credible voice elucidating the true reality of our current greed driven corporate paradigm, that is driving us to the brink.

      (Ah know, cheery Sunday reading/viewing…whit else is there to dae 🙂 )

    220. Ken500 says:

      The majority will be ripping the Tories/Ujionists apart. The Unionists Parties are already ripping themselves apart. The Tory councils in the rest of the UK, do not want any more cuts and austerity. The Unionists are committing electoral suicide.

      Hooray Harry is calling for more youngsters to be forced into illegal wars. Why are impartial Royals getting involved in illegal wars and Referendums. They should slim down, shut up or bow out.

    221. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Way things are going, packs of hounds may be required to locate elected SLabbers in Scotland at this time next year. (No need to chase them, or tear them apart – just finding them will be a newsworthy achievement.)

    222. HandandShrimp says:

      Frankie’s show was excellent.

      BBC too scared to put that out on airwaves I take it 🙂

    223. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ben madigan.

      That speech could fit into many scenarios (like yours) so I’m surprised nobody beat me to it.

      I’ve been working on it piecemeal for a week but yesterday was the spur to get it finished. Also, we should remember, ‘the quality of mercy is not strained’.

      Alas, sometimes the quality of mercy goes out the window, to a cry of “GIRFUY MURPHY!”

    224. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @K1 (11.14) –

      Good read there, and isn’t it pretty much what George Carlin was saying here?

    225. Dr Jim says:

      It demonstrates how bad things are when at even the wee telly show that is FMQs Brian Taylor can tell you what the questions will be before the wee Labour pretence begins

      And that’s because they were probably written at Labour
      (Pacific Quay) HQ by Brian Taylor in the first place

      Every week wee Ruthie comes up with another worthless document that proves absolutely nothing and attempts to introduce it as evidenced fact

      Willie Rennie complains about a cop with a gun (Ye jist want Independence) (Again)

      Patrick Harvie seeks sympathy on something sad or the planet ( Hasnae got enough power Captain )Ye canny burn the oil

      After watching this Pantomime for years my admiration for the SNP knows no bounds
      For to tolerate this drivel with the amount of patience they do and still maintain their composure tells me if they can’t be worn down with this crap they can win anything

      One last thing, if John Swinney has to explain the meaning of Fiscal Responsibility or Barnett one more time to Jackie Baillie
      my head will burst

      Noo where did ah leave ma keys an ma fone

    226. heedtracker says:

      Support is garnered by being inclusive and welcoming to the cause those of any political persuasion and none.

      Who with though?

      As gorgeous Katherine Ryan tells Frankie Boyle, there are now more Pandas in Scotland than there are Labour MP’s and chances are at least one of Scotland’s pandas has a higher IQ.

    227. crazycat says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      “You will compel me, then, to read* the Vow?”

      (* make / break /keep all seem potential alternatives; read is closer to the original but not quite the right meaning for the context)

    228. boris says:

      Conservatives plan to scrap Human Rights Act – read the full document
      Chris Grayling’s eight-page strategy paper ‘Protecting human rights in the UK’ promises to ‘restore sovereignty to Westminster’ through a parliamentary override, breaking the formal link between British courts and the European court of human rights

    229. Morag says:

      The convener of the Kirkcudbright branch of the SNP died suddenly this afternoon. The last thing he tweeted was a link to this article. Does anyone know if he was a winger?

    230. call me dave says:

      Scotland’s champion: Verdict on Jim and his backroom boys.

      Photo warning. 🙂

    231. heedtracker says:

      If you doubt the Faslane WMD whistle blower, watch this

      Published on Jul 27, 2014
      America has over 4,800 nuclear weapons, and we don’t take terrific care of them.
      It’s terrifying, basically.


      Have nightmares.

    232. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dr Jim –

      There are people on this site who know how to crunch the numbers, and could probably give us a fairly accurate picture of what the Holyrood parliament will look like this time next year. (Unfortunately, I’m not one of them!)

      Whatever that scenario involves, it won’t be a mirror of Scottish WM representation. Labour won’t be wiped out. The Lib-Dems will still be there, as will the Tories, and UKIP. Any effective opposition will be formed by parties who are, broadly speaking, in agreement with the SNP insofar as they support independence, i.e. the Greens and the SSP – we differ only on the pace and scale of change required, and how best to go about it.

      Many Yes/SNP folk have been holding on, holding on, waiting for a decisive break before they decamp to their favoured groups. The WM results provided that break. Next May, the Greens and SSP will garner – at least – hundreds of thousands of ‘second’ and ‘third’ votes, if for no other reason than we are, and always have been, pro-Indy. It won’t be enough to completely lock-out SLab (much as many of us would love to see another rout) but it should be sufficient to see a Green/SSP alliance form a solid opposition. If that happens, the quality of political discourse in this country is going to further expose Westminster HOC ‘business’ as an elitist sham.

      Ordinary citizens, on a day-to-day basis, do not have to ensure that they are separated by two sword-lengths before they have a discussion. And even then, they rarely resort to bullying, name-calling and vicious sarcasm to state their case. Whatever one may think about the status of the Scottish ‘parliament’/’assembly’, it has been steadily raising standards of behaviour by avoiding the confrontational theatricality of WM. SLab did their best to maintain that act, but it’s fallen flat now – folk realise that they don’t need, want, or like it. It won’t be missed.

      The SSP and Greens will probably play an important role in the 2016 Scottish parliament. I don’t speak for the SSP officially, but I know that a lot of my dear friends, in the SSP and Green Party, are confident that we will, in the next few months, select candidates who are capable of ensuring that Scotland will continue to prove itself a site of progressive, positive political discourse.

      We will need the support of you, Dr Jim, and the many loyal SNP members who have achieved so much – goes around, comes around, right? And the more support we get from SNP members, be it in the form of 2nd or 3rd votes, the more we crowd out the remaining unionists.

      Win-win, so far as I can see. What think ye?

    233. Barontorc says:

      @ Morag – re Andrew McMorrin – very sorry to hear of his passing – he most certainly was a ‘winger’ and an earlier NNS contributor. I can’t remember his pseudonym, but think it was ‘Drew1320’ and I’m sure he was very happy with the wipe-out SNP result. My condolences to his family and so very thoughtful of his daughter to bring us this news at such a sad personal time. What a bond we have.

    234. Morag says:

      What’s a “third” vote?

    235. Morag says:

      Obviously, members and supporters of the Greens and the SSP will vote for these parties on the list. I’m worried by the pressure being put on SNP members and supporters to vote Green on the list. I think it seriously risks handing the unionist parties enough seats to wrest control of the Scottish parliament from the SNP.

    236. Morag says:

      Barontorc, thanks for that. It’s so difficult in this situation when someone has been posting under a pseudonym.

      Tomorrow I have to go to the funeral of a longstanding SNP member who died the day after the election. It’s awful the way we keep losing people, when we can’t yet see the end of the road.

    237. Barontorc says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 May, 2015 at 12:50 am

      !00% agreed with you. The template of old politics is now well and truly torn asunder and our Scottish democratic system needs proper and true political gumption.

      What a rush of fresh air is coming down the ventilator shaft.

    238. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Morag (12.51) –


      Nice try.

    239. John Moss says:


      Maybe it’s time to stop f**king complaining about Jim Murphy and his associated fannies. Jim Murphy and is kind are dead.

      I think it’s time we stated clearly exactly what we as sovereings expect our elected and un-elected public servants to do to earn our hard-earned cash.

      So, if you are earning the minimum wage working for RS McColl or Argos, perhaps it’s time to ask why we should be knocking ourselves out to keep the current system working?

      Glasgow Council is made up of Housing Benefits, Social Work, Educartion and other arm’s length bodies – Glasgow Life is registerted as a charity???

      Glasgow Counci.’s IT service (Access)n is a supposed partnership with a French company Serco.


      What charitable work does a museum service do? Why should our IT services for one of our largest cities be run ( in so-called partnership) by a foreign company?

      What charitable work do our Scottish universities do? A hell of a lot of them are registered charities. Do they issue education to the poor, here in Scotland? What is going on?

      Time for a lot more than asking for answers to questions, time to sort this things out!

      Wings Over Scotland needs to take a new direction – to challenge the current way things are run in our country.

    240. crazycat says:

      @ Ian

      I don’t know what a third vote is, either. At every previous Holyrood election, I’ve had one constituency (first past the post) vote, and one regional list vote (proportional).

      It’s very late and I’ve just won a lengthy battle with two chairs I needed to dismantle in order to take then to the coup, so maybe the answer is really obvious, but I’d still like to have it explained, please.

    241. IAB says:

      Where’s Blair?

    242. Ken500 says:

      Universities have Charitable status, so they don’t pay taxes. VAT etc. Not businesses, although sometimes there are spin off/businesses for research to sell and make profits, which go back into Universities funds. Universities are large conglomerates supported by £Millions of public funds. Massive enterprises.

      Universities must find a way to educate working class students and not the wealthy from elsewhere. A post code system? Doctors/professoionals should come from the local area, especially where there is a shortage in the highlands etc. More Local students would return to their area. Students from elsewhere return to their locality/family etc.

      There are arguments about Fire Service/Police Service pay VAT in Scotland under the UK tax system. They are both funded by the Scottish Gov (Barnett) and are public services.

    243. Ken500 says:

      The Greens will not get major support because of their stance over local issues. They waste too much public money objecting to progress. Threy be sleekitly pushing a minority agenda and attention seeking for publicity and funds. They campaign against essential roads while being (secretly) funded by landowners, who don’t want roads near their estates. Leading to higher deaths on the roads and journeys taking twice as long. Cycle tracks which no one uses but cost a fortune, while essential services are cut. They campaign against pedestrianisation and spend £Millions on Public building and carbuncles, supporting corrupt Unionist Parties policies, against the wishes of the majority.

    244. Thepnr says:

      heedtracker says:

      “Who with though?”

      The 55% that voted No or the 50% who did not vote SNP half of which still vote Labour. That’s who with.

    245. Ken500 says:

      Many workers do a great job in supermarkets etc and keep the food chain going. Although there are drawbacks shift work etc. With perks bonuses and discount, workers can earn over the living wage. It can provide work in the local area with less travelling time and expense. Everyone can’t be Einstein. It is better to learn a trade or profession, because it give a higher remuneration. People still work in retail and it can support their lifestyle or ambition or be a chance to other employment.

      Trained beauticians earn £20 an hour and are the happiest at their work. There is a shortage and plenty vacancies. Beauty is an expanding industry. No one wants to be ugly. The ides. People enjoy some comforts the Turkish barbers and reflexology. The leisure and hospitality business employs thousands many are happy at their work.

    246. Schrödinger's cat says:

      I posted a run down of the 2011 result and how the system works on a previous thread, Ian brotherhood is right, what goes around comes around the ssp and the green votes were poor last week because their supporters voted with their heads, my biggest fear that they would split the vote was avoided, apart, from mundell, and I believe that any long term acrimony has been avoided, appologies Morag .
      I could never have predicted 2011. And I only dared to hope for last weeks victory, although I had an inkling, but I if the support for the snp continues and nothing major disrupts the support, I have no doubt the snp can win a majority in 2016 on the constituency vote alone (sometimes called vote 1)
      If all of the snp voters voted sg/ssp in the list vote ( vote 2) then they would win, using the 2011 results, 44 seats between them. The libdems would have only 2 msp’s Orkney and Shetland, but rennie would defo be history. The Tories would have only 5 mp’s and slab with 14 would become the 4th party in Scotland. These unionists numbers assume that they will retain the constituency msp’s. Which after last week is very doubtful. I will repost the figures fully later this week, I have just finished a night shift….zzzzz

    247. Schrödinger's cat says:

      I posted a run down of the 2011 result and how the system works on a previous thread, Ian brotherhood is right, what goes around comes around the ssp and the green votes were poor last week because their supporters voted with their heads, my biggest fear that they would split the vote was avoided, apart, from mundell, and I believe that any long term acrimony has been avoided, appologies Morag .
      I could never have predicted 2011. And I only dared to hope for last weeks victory, although I had an inkling, but I if the support for the snp continues and nothing major disrupts the support, I have no doubt the snp can win a majority in 2016 on the constituency vote alone (sometimes called vote 1)
      If all of the snp voters voted sg/ssp in the list vote ( vote 2) then they would win, using the 2011 results, 44 seats between them. The libdems would have only 2 msp’s Orkney and Shetland, but rennie would defo be history. The Tories would have only 5 mp’s and slab with 14 would become the 4th party in Scotland. These unionists numbers assume that they will retain the constituency msp’s. Which after last week is very doubtful. I will repost the figures fully later this week, I have just finished a night shift….zzzzz

    248. john king says:

      I think we should get all those bastards (ALL OF THEM)in a locked room and get Irene to put all the names in Jock Scots hat and draw out one to be leader and make them do it no matter how much they scream. (psstt Irene just make sure you pull out Cara Hiltons name)

      I would pay good money to see that. 🙂

    249. Ken500 says:

      An unusual show of principle from the LibDems in their sink to oblivion. 3 of them refused knighthoods, for decimating the economy.

    250. Roll_On_2015 says:

      I wonder if Citizen Smart, Ian Smarts brother is backing him?

      Guess not.

    251. manandboy says:

      Measure twice cut once.

      For Independence to be accomplished and secured successfully the current high level of political awareness and engagement will have to be maintained and possibly even increased.

      It is apparent that a significant rise in the Yes vote will be required to carry Referendum 2 on Independence. To this end, the presence of the 56 at Westminster and in the public consciousness cannot be overstated.

      Saturation State propaganda remains a major problem. The role of the BBC in Scotland is now akin to that of Jim Murphy ; out of touch, out of sync, and irrelevant. However, weakened as it is after GE15, the BBC will remain in place as the primary mouthpiece of the Unionist Colonial Establishment.

      And yet the progress made so far, seems to have an inbuilt resistance to propaganda and points to a freely growing desire among Scots for major change in how Scotland exists in the world. But since growing takes time, we shall have to be patient as well as hard working.

      We shall also have to embrace political involvement as the norm in everyday life. With Independence as our goal, that shouldn’t be a problem. However, encouragement may still be required.

      Independence remains a struggle however due to the omnipresent British Empire /Colonial /neo-Liberal mindset in London. It has always been thus. In 2012 we thought that democracy alone would suffice. How wrong we were. We thought we were different from all the other English conquests. Now we know; this is no cakewalk. It will be a fight to the finish.

    252. Almannysbunnet says:

      Half a million homes have decided not to pay the BBC licence in the last year. The rate of opt out is running at 1000 per day. I hope we at wings have gone some way to achieving this. On the down side I expect a less than democratic fight back as the BBC cannot last with this business model. They will find a way to force the money out of us. Voluntary subscription won’t be enough for them. It won’t occur to them that attempting to be fair and balanced might be a solution.

    253. Macca73 says:

      If you look at the candidates which are fighting for the head of the Labour party in England you can clearly see that they are All trying to be the party of 1997!

      It’s that which needs some sharp focus here because I don’t believe for a second that anyone who’s not on that bandwagon of Blair style policy will become the Labour leader in Scotland.

      I also believe that they have got it fundamentally wrong if they attempt to go down this path and will have lost Scotland forever because it’s too far to the right!

    254. gerry parker says:


      El Gato, many thanks for that.
      Important we get a good balance in Holyrood. They’re still making “one party state noises”

    255. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Almannysbunnet. The last time I bought a TV from ArgosI was asked if I had a TV licence. Come hither Mr Manager, whit the F&*K hiz ah TV licence goat tae dey wie me buying ah TV,scribbled the question oot & ah complaint to Argos head office.

      Dont pay the BBC to tell us LIES.

    256. bookie from hell says:

      Kezia on Jim

      This quote from Daily Record has surely killed off her leadership bid

      “The sun will be shining and someone somewhere will be opening a can of Irn Bru.”

      bfh—daily mash couldn’t beat that quote

    257. Andy MacNicol says:

      They go through leaders pretty quickly. I wonder if the bookies would do an accumulator.

    258. Ken500 says:

      Some people live in multiple person households. Some members want to watch BBC and pay licence fee, because they do not want to get in trouble. That can cause difficulties. It that case the only solution to the bias, is not to watch the programmes, or watch as little as possible. No viewers, no programmes.

      The BBC in Scotland can’t get Unionists politicians to comment because there are so few left, so now they are getting their biased UKOK ‘journalist’ mates to give biased comment, for a nice fee. They are not even elected. Keep it in the family. The based MSM Mafia. They scratch each other’s back and pocket public money. Extortion. Democracy UK style.

      The only way to get a good balance at Holyrood is to get a viable, creditable opposition that people can have faith in. Otherwise the only way is to get rid of the dregs. Getting rid of the dross could make way for a creditable opposition.

    259. chalks says:

      Can’t be arsed reading through all the comments, but surely the fact that the tories appointed a peer to be deputy sec of state for scotland suggests that labour could quite rationally, give douglas alexander a peerage and then subsequently make him leader…

    260. Ken500 says:

      Westminster interference spoilt the Referendum, they lied and broke all the electoral rules. It could be called, ‘null and void’. If it was called now, it would be a YES, with the demographic changes. It is just a matter of time. There would have had to be negoiations, in any case. Scotland is a different place.

    261. tubes says:

      On the subject of one party state.
      be careful, we are having a phrase subverted to a different meaning.
      A one party state is where there is only one party allowed or all other parties are suppressed or puppets. It is a shorthand for dictatorship.

      That is not the situation in Scotland after one exceptionally good fptp election result. But we hear it again and again. Had it been Labour won 56 would the phrase one party state be used? There is a media trend to slightly mis-use leading phrases and to the unsuspecting seems an appropriate use of language.

    262. Bittie Glakit says:

      I wonder how the potential Labour leaders will sort themselves out.
      Picking a straw? Russian roulette? Maybe like this—–

    263. Jim Thomson says:

      Not sure if our new MPs are being sworn in today or not. If they are, the BBC doesn’t seem to want to broadcast it on any channel. Instead we get the “selection” of the Speaker (Bercow) as if we don’t have enough excitement in our lives.

      There is a live internet broadcast of the Commons Chamber proceedings here though:

      It starts at 14:15 today apparently.

      It also seems that swearing-in will start on Wednesday according to this document:

    264. Breeks says:

      @ Ken500
      I agree, but not listening or watching the BBC isn’t enough. Despite some noteable exceptions, I think too many of us underestimate the power of the BBC.
      It strikes me that any future initiative governing Scotland’s future is setting sail in a leaky boat unless and until the Westminster propaganda machine has been dealt with.
      If it cannot be compelled to behave, then its duplicity has to exposed and the biased opinions vocally discredited. Not doing this was a grave error of judgement in the YES campaign.

    265. Morag says:

      I still don’t know what Ian means by a third vote, and I don’t know why asking the question is seen as being a nice try.

    266. Free Scotland says:

      @bookie from hell at 10:23

      Kezia on Jim

      This quote from Daily Record has surely killed off her leadership bid

      “The sun will be shining and someone somewhere will be opening a can of Irn Bru.”

      Did you spot her other drunken comment from the same article?

      And we saw him beat Nicola Sturgeon in all three TV debates. If only the election had been a battle of ideas.

      The intellectual deficit in labour’s northern branch office is enough to make Rab C Nesbitt feel like a psychiatrist walking through a ward full of needy souls.

    267. Morag says:

      James over at Scot Goes Pop has been discussing the question of a “tactical” list vote for some time. He’s genuinely and seriously concerned that any attempt at that will allow a Labour-led coalition to seize control of Holyrood.

      I appreciate that SSP and Green supporters have voted tactically for the SNP this year. I know quite a few of them. But what else could they realistically do? Neither the SSP nor the Green Party had a hope in hell of winning a FPTP seat, so it was that or see the unionist parties retain more seats.

      The idea that this sensible, practical move came with strings attached, and that SNP supporters should feel in some way morally obliged to vote Green or SSP on the list in 2016 is unwarranted and pernicious.

      The list vote is intended to define the balance of power in the parliament. Nobody can have precise enough information to be able to vote tactically on the list with any degree of confidence that it will work out the way they hope it will work out. Pushing the mantra that a Green or SSP tactical list vote is a risk-free undertaking is dishonest.

      Work for your own vote, guys. There are voters who are there to be persuaded on the merits of the Green and SSP cases, and who would vote genuinely for these parties on the list, not as a tactical move. Give up the moral blackmail attempts to get SNP supporters to back your party instead of their own.

    268. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      On the BBC, last night I had the misfortune to watch Sarah Smith program in the history of the SNP on iPlayer… (I know but I was bored!)

      I was quite interesting in a way but what was truely amazing was that they went through the whole program without comments from one single SNP member past ot present.

      Looks like the SNP are just boycotting BBC PQ as they are rarely on – they are more likely to be on the London BBC now where they get a less biased treatment.

      So the BBC PQ are losing all credibility – who is left to go on politics programs from the Unionist side now – Ruthie, JaBa, James Kelly (not Pop one) and Kez – oh and I forgot Ian Smart!

      So lean times for politics on BBC PQ – Perhaps they can now sack lots of their overpaid journalists and reporters as they have no-one to interview anymore.

      SNP boycott here we come.

    269. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @crazycat –

      Poor word choice from me. I should’ve referred to ‘choice’ rather than ‘vote’. 🙁

    270. heedtracker says:

      No need to actually watch or listen to BBC garbage just look at their schedules on say BBC Vote SLab Scotland now.

      Saints and Scroungers

      Matt Allwright looks into the work of fraud investigators determined to catch those who steal from the public purse, and meets the genuine claimants who deserve government help. Fraud investigators at Brent have got one woman firmly in their sights after uncovering a carousel of benefit frauds amounting to £190,000 pounds. And Matt meets Lorna, who manages her cerebral palsy with the help of a four-legged friend and dedicates herself to helping others with disabilities get the most out of life.

      Actually just listening there to BBC r2 dj explain to homeless people in teamGB that sleeping in bins is dangerous and 4 people die in them a year as they’re emptied.

      Another dull grey day farts out of the £4bn a year UKOK propaganda machine.

    271. Morag says:

      But what practical effect has a “third choice” in the 2016 election? Or even a second choice come to that.

      In an STV type situation, I would certainly rank Green and SSP as my second and third choices, not quite sure in which order. But that’s not how the d’Hondt system works. Any SNP supporter should logically always vote SNP on the list, as he will want the SNP to be the largest party in the parliament. There may be some scope for tactical voting in the constituency, depending on the merits or otherwise of individual candidates.

      I’m getting increasingly disturbed by dishonest attempts to portray the list vote as some sort of “second choice” as if it were an STV system, and to try to exert moral blackmail on SNP supporters to abandon their own party in order to boost support for other smaller parties.

    272. Chic McGregor says:

      “Obviously, members and supporters of the Greens and the SSP will vote for these parties on the list. I’m worried by the pressure being put on SNP members and supporters to vote Green on the list. I think it seriously risks handing the unionist parties enough seats to wrest control of the Scottish parliament from the SNP.”

      Its the other way round Morag.

      IF pro-indy people continue to vote tactically i.e. for the SNP for the FPTP vote but start voting non tactically for the list i.e. for Greens or SSP if they prefer them, then the total for pro-indy parties will be much greater.

      It is just the way the system works.

      In 2011 the SNP got 53 FPTP but only 16 List seats, despite almost as many voters voting SNP in the list as did for FPTP.

      That is because votes are deducted from a parties’ List total for every FPTP seat they have won before any List seats are allocated.

      OK switching to Greens, SSP for the List will reduce the number of SNP seats a bit, perhaps even to the point of no SNP outright majority but Nicola would still, even in that eventuality, be First Minister, Sweeney would still be Finance Secretary whether by minority government or by an alliance say with the Greens. If the latter, then I don’t think many would see the possible presence of Patrick Harvey in government as being a negative.

      OTOH, a policy of folk voting SNP for both FPTP and the List brings the very really risk that ‘impossibility’ will not strike twice, that there may not be a second perfect storm and that the SNP may very well not get another outright majority. If that happens, you can guarantee there will, this time, be a Lab/Tory/Libdem alliance regardless of whether the SNP is the largest party or not and regardless of any counter claims made by Murphy or Clegg in that regard.

      There is, apart from virtually guaranteeing a pro-indy majority in Holyrood, another a very important benefit. The presence of significant numbers of Green and SSP MSPs would immediately kill off the “One party state”, “Nazi” scaremongering jibes which have, of late, increasingly become the weapons of choice by the Brit MSM and which are a real threat IMO.

      It is, as Thepnr said in a previous thread, “a no brainer”.

      Unfortunately, although not entirely necessary, SNP buy in to this has challenges. First, of course, is the disappointment of non FPTP candidates. However, SNP candidates are, IMV, rather more principled than those of other parties and would/should put Scotland’s interests first. Second, a tougher problem IMV, is the one of tribalistic hubris – “we can do this ourselves”. Third, some assurances would need to be sought from Greens and SSP leadership on certain issues, in particular the invoking conditions and timing of any second indyref.

      If the SNP do, however, go with it a pre-election statement that, unlike Westminster, the SNP would be willing to have a post election alliance with the Greens or SSP and that while those who primarily want to keep a second independence referendum option open should still vote SNP for the FPTP choice they should feel free to vote non-tactically for Greens or SSP on the list, if that is their preference, could be made.

      Big decisions for the SNP leadership.

    273. DerekM says:

      The counter to their new claim that we are a one party state is quite simple,you ask them if that means we are independent because the last time you looked we were still part of the UK state,so if we are a one party state what about the tory party or dont they count and if so why are they in government of the UK state and we are not.

      That will shut them up

    274. orri says:

      Kezia sort of rhymes with Messiah.

      A coincidence?

      I think not!

    275. crazycat says:

      @ Hoss Mackintosh

      I watched that Sarah Smith thing the other day; she was really struggling not to let her distaste show on her face (she failed, in my opinion).

      The people she did interview were fair in their assessments, though (Jeane Freeman, Lesley Riddoch, Tom Devine and Iain MacWhirter – have I forgotten anyone?).

    276. Richardinho says:

      I think Kezia should probably get the job. Actually I think Gordon Brown should step up to the plate but he’s far too much of a coward to do it. Kezia has the advantage of being in place at the moment, hasn’t screwed up too badly so far and can’t be any worse than any of her predecessors.

    277. Mealer says:

      Chris McGregor 11.53
      I don’t think the unionist parties would need to form an alliance and government.They could let the SNP continue as a minority government or one or more of them could form a minority government under a variety of arrangements.The point is,though,that they could vote to prevent another referendum.

    278. Chic McGregor says:

      That would be their smart move.

    279. Morag says:

      Chic, I hear what you say, but it’s far more complex than that. It also depends on the region you’re in.

      There is a detailed debate going on on Scot Goes Pop, and I don’t want to reprise everything here, but it’s far from clear cut and many factors we simply can’t predict at this stage could throw any predictions wildly off.

      At the moment, I’m having a bit of a negative reaction to the rhetoric of “we (SSP, Green) voted SNP for Westminster, so SNP supporters ought to return the favour on the list next year. That’s just moral blackmail. Voting SNP was the rational thing to do this year. Voting for a different party on the list next year MAY be bloody suicidal, depending on how the arithmetic pans out.

    280. Stoker says:

      @ Morag.

      I’ve just been over to that ‘Scot Goes Pop’ site, for the first time, to try and learn more about this tactical voting topic and i don’t see any blog on the topic.

      Today’s topic is about the barbaric English fox hunting.

      Can you advise any further?

      Why am i not seeing the discussion you refer to?

    281. Stoker says:

      Thank you Brian (@2.22pm).

    282. Muscleguy says:

      I read it from the link on the BanTheBomb site (SCND) and have downloaded the .pdf onto my desktop. I think I’ll also copy it onto my eReader, my smartphone and my ancient iPod touch.

    283. Richard Taylor says:

      What are the odds on Jim Murphy becoming the new Labour leader after his own resignation?

    284. Morag says:

      Stoker, see here.

      The discussion has been going on for some time in the comments, in fact.

      I think there may be circumstances where a tactical vote could be arguable, but they’d be pretty extreme and not something we could predict nearly a year out. The position is also different for each region. I don’t think a tactical list vote is ever likely to be sensible in my own region, for example.

      Obviously people will vote Green and SSP on the list if they support the Greens or the SSP. Pressurising SNP supporters not to vote SNP on the list is a different issue though.

    285. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Thanks for the link Morag.

      James Kelly must have done that post after I had looked in this morning.

    286. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I think, to summarise, you can only vote tactically in the constituency vote – lend your vote to the (pro-indy) party you think can win.

      For the list vote, you vote with your heart.

    287. Paula Rose says:

      I don’t think it sensible at this stage to be talking about tactical votes or any idea that SNP supporters should “lend” their vote to a list candidate.

      I voted SNP and will do in 2016 – assuming as seems the case that the Green Party will not be standing in individual seats.

      I shall be campaigning strongly for the Green Party and am hoping to win over people from all backgrounds, political preference and class. As we near the polling date I am hoping that the level of information available through our various forms of citizen’s media will enable people to make an informed choice.

      As Morag says – each of the eight regions is different and will need differing approaches, also there will be other factors such as how well the sitting member is perceived to have done their job as opposed to a desire to turf Labour out.

    288. Stoker says:

      @ Morag.

      Thank you for that link, very helpful in helping me gain a slightly better understanding of the situation.

      Just trying to get a grip on a simplistic angle but it’s anything but and a helluva lot of factors come into play.

      I had planned to vote tactically for the first time in my life but i think i’ll hang fire on that decision until nearer the time.

      My ultimate aim is to see as many Unionists as possible cleared out of Holyrood but i’m not prepared to even contemplate the slightest of risks to an SNP majority.

      As for the ‘area specific’ matter, yes, i was sort of already aware that that would be the case.

      And even though i’m a bit more wiser, after reading that link, i feel even more apprehensive now and just feel like doing what i’ve done all my life and that is to continue only voting for the SNP until we are an independent country, (vote 1 & 2).

      I’m away for a nap, enough learning for one day, ma heeds burstin.

      Thanks again.

    289. Rock says:


      “My ultimate aim is to see as many Unionists as possible cleared out of Holyrood but i’m not prepared to even contemplate the slightest of risks to an SNP majority.”

      To avoid the slightest risk to an SNP majority, all SNP supporters will have to vote SNP both on the constituency and list votes in 2016.

      I had been prepared to give the list vote to one of the other pro-independence parties, but following the Patrick Harvey and Colin Fox’s decisions to stand candidates against the SNP in the 2015 Westminster election, I have changed my mind.

      Only the SNP with an outright majority without having to rely on support from others can get us to where we want to go.

      After independence, we will be free to decide – tactical voting will be unnecessary then.

    290. orri says:

      As far as i understand the way the system used in Holyrood works is that Scotland is divided into regions. In each there’s a constituency MP elected on FPTP. In addition there’s an additional member system based on your second vote. The theory is that those additional seats are distributed so that each party get’s enough so in an ideal world their total is as near the percentage of votes cast in that second vote.

      The two flaws here are that even before being topped up a party might already have more than it’s quota of MSPs. In addition if they don’t and you vote “tactically” in the second vote then you reduce the chances of getting more.

      So there is a slim justification for voting for an allied party if you’re certain that voting for your first choice again won’t make a difference.

      In addition we really need the SNP to have more than 50% of votes cast or else that’ll be used to deny them legitimacy and claim that the majority of the vote was for unionist parties.

    291. ronnie anderson says:

      WTF is Davidson oan (bbc 2015) could the more knowledgable Wingers give me ah translated version of his waffle.

    292. Morag says:

      I couldn’t completely exclude a situation arising in a particular region (possibly the north-east) where a tactical vote on the list might turn out to be a rational decision. However, the circumstances would have to be very exceptional, and such exceptional circumstances would only become clear in the very final weeks or even days of the campaign.

      I think the idea that SNP supporters might decide now to vote tactically for the Greens on the list is madness. Even in the north-east. We simply don’t know how the arithmetic might pan out. I’m absolutely certain that the arithmetic in the south of Scotland will never be favourable to a tactical list vote.

      I wish the Greens all the best, but I think they have to do it by garnering their own support, not by pressurising SNP supporters to abandon their own party – and certainly not by doing that under false pretences.

      I think there’s also a degree of distrust of the Green party in terms of their leadership. I’ve heard Patrick Harvie speak and he was excellent, but there’s always a suspicion that he’s going to make decisions on what’s best for the Greens rather than on what’s best for Scotland or independence. With the SNP, there’s no dichotomy. What’s best for the SNP and what’s best for Scotland and independence are always the same thing.

      That they decided to stand a candidate against Mundell also hasn’t gone down too well. Nobody has ever really expleined that. Of course they had every right to, but why exercise that right under the circumstances? Someone said something about a trial run for 2016. Gee thanks guys. They had no hope of taking the constituency, and a lot of Greens realised that and voted SNP anyway. However, the Green vote was still more than Mundell’s majority over Emma Harper.

      For these reasons, I don’t think “you owe us one” has any mileage. Work to build support for your party, but don’t try to steal SNP votes. I might vote Green myself some day, who knows. In an independent Scotland.

    293. Morag says:

      I suppose the bottom line is, you can’t supplant SLab as opposition in Holyrood by repackaging existing pro-independence votes.

      SLab have about 25% of the vote, and that gets them the opposition spot. There isn’t a short-cut to changing that, without cutting into their vote. If the Greens and the SSP think they can do it by cutting into the SNP vote, which seems to be the current plan, the almost certain outcome is that they will damage the SNP sufficiently to lose the party the chance of an overall majority, while not themselves gaining enough to be realistic challengers for the #2 spot. That would be an unmitigated disaster.

      You can play around with tactical voting scenarios till you’re blue in the face, but the basic arithmetic doesn’t change. This is what sent Effie Deans and the #SNPout crowd completely round the bend, and it will do the same to the independence movement if we try to go down the same road.

      A last-minute swing away from the SNP in the constituency vote, even quite a small one, could be enough to lose several close-fought constituencies. This is entirely possible. If that happened, and SNP voters had deserted on the list to give a couple more percentage points to the Greens instead, these losses will not be compensated for by list seats, as they should be with honest voting patterns. Instead Labour or maybe the Tories will be the beneficiaries.

      Talking to Alan Bissett on Twitter, he seems to want to gerrymander the voting to get the Green party into the #2 position in Holyrood without the necessity for taking votes from Labour. It can’t be done, it’s that simple. The only way to become the #2 party is to attract north of 20% of the vote. And if you support independence, you better not be aiming to get these extra votes from the SNP. I mean, what are you thinking of?

      Guys, everybody. You need to vote on the list for the party you really support. If that’s the Greens or the SSP, good on you. But if it’s the SNP, your party really really needs your list vote, and don’t let anyone tell you differently.

    294. Stoker says:

      After reading and learning as much as i could possibly bear, over the last few days, about tactical voting, i have come to the decision that now is not the time to be playing with our votes.

      I have never in my life voted “tactically” and always just voted for the only party capable of bringing me what i desire most in the world of politics – a free and independent Scotland.

      The only reason i contemplated splitting my vote this time round was a sense of wanting to return the favour to those supporters of other parties who helped the SNP to achieve the recent historic GE result.

      I must state though, that this was out of a decision made via my own conscience and not due to any form of “moral blackmail” exerted on me by others.

      However, i can see now that i was caught up in the euphoria of the moment and was prematurely jumping the gun. There will be plenty of time and opportunity to vote for others as soon as we are free of Warminster.

      Until then it is essential that everyone, of all parties, gets right behind the SNP and the greater Yes movement.

      Playing with our votes is just far too risky and would more than likely set our cause back considerably and that’s a risk i’m not prepared to take.

      Morag and Rock, your posts and insightful experience of Scottish politics helped to seal my decision on this matter and reassured me that i was making the right decision, and the only sensible decision i could make on this subject.

      Thank you to everyone who contributed to this tactical voting subject, your contributions helped prevent me from making a serious mistake.

      I shall return to what i feel comfortable with – voting SNP and only SNP – until we are independent. Then it will be time for taking stock and digesting what’s on offer and acting accordingly.

      Cheers all.

    295. Paula Rose says:

      In all seriousness – I am more interested in convincing non-SNP voters of the merits of Green policies and asking them to vote Green on the list.

    296. Morag Kerr says:

      Paula, quite right and the very best of luck to you. That’s exactly the attitude that will benefit the campaign as a whole.

    297. Morag says:

      The only reason I contemplated splitting my vote this time round was a sense of wanting to return the favour to those supporters of other parties who helped the SNP to achieve the recent historic GE result. [….] However, I can see now that I was caught up in the euphoria of the moment and was prematurely jumping the gun.

      I think this has happened to a number of people, and I think the Green party and the SSP have been encouraging it. I hope these people also realise the folly of what they’re contemplating, and the damage that could result if more than a handful actually do it.

    298. Chic McGregor says:

      Morag, I don’t know who you’ve been talking to, but the truth is the exact opposite of that.

      If the List votes which went to the SNP in 2011 had instead been split evenly between Greens and SSP we would have returned 96 pro-indy MSPs in Holyrood. NINETY SIX. That is just an arithmetical fact.

      Plus it needs to be a significant percentage of the SNP list vote which goes over, a small amount simply replaces SNP MSPs with Greens and SSP ones and still runs the risk of a non indy party majority being obtained.

      Anything north of 50% of the SNP List vote going to the Greens and the SSP and an indy majority in parliament should be fairly certain.

      Oh and by the way, the ‘one party state’ and ‘Nazi’ jibes wouldn’t even have got off the ground if party hubris had not won out in 2011 and we had had significant numbers of Greens and SSP MSPs in holyrood.

    299. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Chic.

      How did you arrive at the figure of 96?

      How many of them would have been SNP MSP’s?

      Which party would have had the most MSP’s at Holyrood?

      What would have been the make-up of the parliament?

      I could go back to the 2011 results and try to work these out, using your ‘all SNP list votes to the Greens and SSP’ scenario but I’m guessing you’ve already done that?

    300. Rock says:


      “I shall return to what i feel comfortable with – voting SNP and only SNP – until we are independent.”

      Only the SNP with an absolute majority will be able to get us independence.

      Any dependence on other parties will put back our cause.

      We do not need to understand the finer points of the PR system.

      We must maximise the SNP vote by giving them both our votes.

      As Morag has pointed out, any decrease in the constituency vote could seriously jeapordise the SNP’s chances.

      Democratic politics will flourish after independence.

      For the 2016 Scottish election, the Socialists should target die hard Labour voters and the Greens should target die hard Lib Dem and Tory voters, the voters that the SNP cannot reach.

    301. Chic McGregor says:

      Hi Brian, the most extreme case where all of the 2011 SNP list vote gets split between Greens and SSP gives

      SNP 53 (ie, just FPTP MSPs of course)
      Greens 24
      SSP 19

      SNP still biggest party so still would have been an SNP government as per Salmond as FM, Sturgeon, Swinney et al.

      Whether run as a (well supported) minority government or in alliance with either the Greens or SSP.

      BTW for a 50% SNP List vote conversion it drops to 83 indy MSPs.

    302. Morag says:

      Fantasising about what might happen if very substantial proportions of the SNP constituency votes switch on the list is cloud-cuckoo-land. The proportion of voters who read about this sort of spiffing wheeze online is minuscule, never mind the proportion of those who are prepared to go along with it.

      It’s also very region-dependent. Blanket declarations about what “would have happened” with a particular percentage shift are meaningless – the question is, what would happen in each individual region.

      At best, this ploy can only hope to get enough takers to be dangerous – to risk losing seats for the SNP while failing to pick them up for other parties. Hopefully it’ll be like the pouters – a lot of online noise and no discernable effect on the ground.

    303. Chic McGregor says:

      PS I guess you would like the other party results as well
      Lab drops from from 37 to 23
      Tories drop 15 to 8
      Libdems drop from 5 to 2

    304. Paula Rose says:

      Look dolls – I’m loath to go over it all again, but many like me who will return to our party of choice (the Green Party) for the 2016 election, we have the future of all of us and our children at heart.

      I don’t want your vote as a quid pro quo – I want you to explain to those that won’t vote SNP that there are other parties that also share the future of Scotland and the rest of the world close and dear to their hearts.

      Please think about those that were never reached by our campaign through our own difficulty in reaching them – they can also have faith in the future rather than fear.

    305. Chic McGregor says:

      Morag, it is not complicated, it is simply arithmetic.

      It is not fantasy it is hypothesis. Fantasy is something which is not true, hypothesis is something which is true given different proposed starting points.

      Had the SNP List vote gone to the SSP and Greens in 2011 then those results would have been very real.

      Especially for those unionist MSPs who would have gone.

    306. Morag says:

      And if my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle.

      It’s not possible. It’s not going to happen. Look at the #snpout thing. They had a wheel and everything.

      They had activists on the ground. Their campaign was picked up by the political parties. A number of candidates incorporated the wheel into their election leaflets. God knows how, but everyone in this village got two hand-delivered leaflets from them – I even found the leaflets in isolated country letterboxes when I was leafleting myself. Their campaign was picked up by national newspapers, several of whom published guides on who to vote for to keep the evil SNP out.

      What they were suggesting was normal tactical voting. Nothing complicated about it, nothing new, and nothing that was in breach of electoral law either. It also didn’t have a downside. Done right, it couldn’t actually help the SNP, even if it didn’t stop them.

      They got pretty much nowhere. Voters simply aren’t susceptible to this sort of suggestion, en masse.

    307. Chic McGregor says:


      I prefer to deal in facts and statistical analysis.

      The ‘tactical’ voting attempted (and very badly) by the Us was dogged by two main things.

      First it was carried out in only a FPTP scenario. In that scenario, if you want to depose an incumbent or minimise the chances of someone who you do not want winning, you need to be able to identify who the most likely contender, who has a chance of preventing that, actually is. The problem they had is that in many seats they simply didn’t know who that person was. Hence the confused messages about who they should vote for.

      Second was the problem of identifying just which seats that strategy would be best played out in and, crucially, getting inter party agreement on what those were.

      Hence the farcical and amusing antics in that strategy.

      But there is no comparison between their obvious confusion and that which pertains in the much clearer and simpler pro indy case.

      For the FPTP v List vote, it couldn’t be simpler.

      Vote for the main indy party for FPTP and vote for one of the two other main indy parties for the List.

      That does not require wheels or runes or anything.

      Also the regional aspect is statistically advantageous because the List only works on regional totals. It doesn’t matter how ‘evenly spread’ the vote for either the Greens or SSP is in the region, it is only the total that matters and no vote cast for either is would be discounted.

      There is no evidential or statistically backed basis which suggests such a strategy would be anything other than beneficial to the total of indy MSPs and certainly none whatsoever which suggests it would be detrimental in that regard.

      I have always voted SNP and both for FPTP and the List on every occasion, despite my statistical reservations.

      However, this time I will vote SNP for FPTP but either Green or SSP for the list, I will need to read their manifestos to see which I disagree with least, first.

      Some in the SNP seem to have the notion that SNP FPTP votes are SNP property, that they would be lending their vote to Greens and the SSP so why should they? Well in my experience both in Inverclyde and here in Angus, I am aware of many, many folk who vote SNP but who are ‘lefties’ who would prefer to vote SSP or are environmentally concerned and prefer the Greens manifesto.

      It makes you wonder exactly who has been lent the vote here.

      And of course, from an ethical standpoint, ‘freeing’ people to vote SSP or Greens for the list is actually less tactical, technically.

    308. Morag says:

      Nobody owns my list vote but me. I’m not going to cast it as a payback for a tactical vote in 2015, or out of some demented notion that it can be used to “elect the opposition” while my constituency vote elects the government.

      I’m going to cast it in the way that will most benefit the cause of independence, and that is for the SNP.

      The discussion has been very fruitful on Scot Goes Pop, and if you haven’t read the whole thread I think you should.

    309. Chic McGregor says:

      I haven’t read any of ‘Scot goes Pop’ but I do have considerable experience in applying logical, statistically based analysis on the available data.

      I have done so and will act accordingly.

    310. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Chic.

      I WAS going to give my constituency vote to the SNP and my List vote to, probably The Greens (if Shiona Baird wasn’t the candidate) but, after reading comments elsewhere, particularly the ‘Scots Goes Pop!’ page, I have realised that I must remain true and vote SNP for both votes.

      Paula Rose has made a good case – our job is to hold up the SNP vote to 2011 levels, whilst persuading erstwhile Labour, Tory and Lib-Dem voters to ‘lend’ their votes to The Greens, SSP or whatever ‘pro-indy’ party suits our particular political beliefs.

      Once we are independent, we can cast our fate to the wind.

    311. Morag says:

      That’s up to you of course. You realise it all falls down due to the simple fact that not 1% of the electorate is going to follow you down that road? No, nor even 0.1%, probably.

    312. Morag says:

      That last was to Chic of course. Simultaneous posting.

    313. Chic McGregor says:

      Well, if they do they risk the Holyrood election being a disaster for the independence movement.

      It will be interesting to see whether the cause of independence does triumph over party tribalism.

      Personally, I wouldn’t write off the SNP strategists and its leadership just yet, lot of clever people there now.

    314. Chic McGregor says:

      Hi Brian
      Sounds like skulldugarry afoot on ‘Scot goes Pop’. Maybe the clue is in the title 🙂

    315. Morag says:

      The day you find an SNP strategist advocating a list vote for anyone but the SNP I will undertake to run naked round Princes Street gardens with my knickers on my head and two pencils shoved up my nostrils.

    316. Chic McGregor says:

      I’m not as uncharitable as you seem to be Morag. I think principle and logic still has a chance.

      However, it is not entirely a matter for the SNP.

    317. Morag says:

      If you can’t see the horrendous risks involved in what you’re advocating, Chic, despite explanations here and (more coherently) on Scot Goes Pop, then I really can’t help you.

      I’ve said all along that I don’t discount the situation where a tactical list vote might look like a safe thing to do, if nothing else, in one or two regions. Depending on how the constituencies are going. But if that does happen, it will only become apparent very close up to polling day. Committing yourself to such a vote more than 11 months in advance is insane.

      The SNP is flavour of the month right now. This might last for a full year, but it might not. The SNP might be needing every list seat it can scrape up to retain its absolute majority.

      The Greens and the SSP have an absolute mountain to climb to be in a position to get significant numbers of list seats. They’re not going to climb it on the basis of a few thousand SNP tactical votes. It’s highly likely that neither party might benefit from vote switching to the extent needed to offset Labour (and even Tory or LibDem) narrow constituency gains.

      The best that can happen to this idea is that so few people are taken in by it, it exerts no appreciable influence on the final result.

    318. Morag says:

      If you can’t see the horrendous risks involved in what you’re advocating, Chic, despite explanations here and (more coherently) on Scot Goes Pop, then I really can’t help you.

      I’ve said all along that I don’t discount the situation where a tactical list vote might look like a safe thing to do, if nothing else, in one or two regions. Depending on how the constituencies are going. But if that does happen, it will only become apparent very close up to polling day. Committing yourself to such a vote more than 11 months in advance is insane.

      The SNP is flavour of the month right now. This might last for a full year, but it might not. The SNP might be needing every list seat it can scrape up to retain its absolute majority.

      The Greens and the SSP have an absolute mountain to climb to be in a position to get significant numbers of list seats. They’re not going to climb it on the basis of a few thousand SNP tactical votes. It’s highly likely that neither party might benefit from vote switching to the extent needed to offset Labour (and even Tory or LibDem) narrow constituency gains.

      The best that can happen to this idea is that so few people are taken in by it, it exerts no appreciable influence on the final result.

    319. Morag says:

      Oh, and giving a vote to a smaller party you don’t entirely hate, out of “charity”, is not going to win us independence. Sorry and all that.

      You fancy yourself a statistician, but you won’t even read the blog post where the proposition is being discussed in detail. There, people who were initially attracted to the idea for the same flawed reasons you yourself are relying on, have realised they were misled and changed their minds.

      If you’re so confident of your own intellectual genius you don’t even want to read the opposing arguments, I’ll leave you to your little bubble.

    320. Chic McGregor says:

      My temerity in pointing out the simple statistical facts of the matter has clearly exercised you greatly.

      I can only assume that this is because you fail to understand, or have been mislead, on how the d’Hondt AMS electoral system actually works.

      Therefore I will end my input into this exchange by simply stating that failure to recognise the advantage of having two other main pro-indy parties to vote for on the List would result in potential, and by design, likely disaster for the independence movement.

      We must agree to disagree on this one.

    321. Morag says:

      I understand the system a hell of a lot better than you seem to do. Mainly, I understand that voters are unpredictable, and that taking massive risks with the list vote on the assumption that the constituency vote will pan out the way you fondly imagine it will, is suicidal.

      Your arrogance in assuming that your points haven’t all been carefully examined elsewhere and shown to be flawed, is unfortunate. Not actually reading other people’s take on the issue isn’t really very clever. But if you’re so sure you know best and there’s nothing you can’t have thought of, I can’t help you.

    322. Paula Rose says:

      Hey babes – two of my fave wingies – stop it noo, I don’t want your vote. Not worth it if you’re going to fall out – now kiss and make up pronto. As the only high heeled queen of the world allow me to point out that I don’t effing care – I and my Green army will do our thang.

    323. Morag says:

      I told him not to approve the post that was caught in moderation!

      Oh well, it’s deja vu all over again.

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