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Wings Over Scotland

The Illogical Song

Posted on October 24, 2015 by

Kezia Dugdale talking about her dad in today’s Scotsman:

“We are not one nation now. As much as we are all trying to come back together, the referendum kind of burns on. I see it as emotional, not rational. My dad will see something on Wings Over Scotland and post it. For him, it is as relevant a source as the ­Financial Times because it reinforces what he already believes.

And because I can see somebody in my family doing that, I understand that’s there’s 100,000 other people who feel exactly the same way.”

Just a couple of things.

1. People don’t trust Wings because it “reinforces what they already believe”. They trust it because we back up what we say with live links to original and independent sources so they can check our interpretation for themselves. (Something, incidentally, the Financial Times doesn’t do, like most newspapers don’t.)

2. We’ve caught Kezia Dugdale out in unquestionable, empirical lies more times than we can count – on illiteracy rates, on the “autonomy” of her branch office, on what Stewart Hosie had said on the BBC, on Labour’s student fees and on the contents of the Edinburgh Agreement, to name just five off the top of our head.

She, on the other hand, has never once caught us lying (because we don’t lie). So it’s a bit of a cheek for her to assert that believing Wings isn’t rational. The irrational act, on all the evidence available, is to believe Kezia Dugdale.

3. We have WAY more than 100,000 readers.

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  1. 25 10 15 09:40

    The Illogical Song | Politics Scotland | Scoop...

193 to “The Illogical Song”

  1. R-type Grunt says:

    He shoots.. He scores!

  2. Allan Thomson says:

    On top of Kezias other woes by her own admission she has an irrational Dad. Makes sense now!

  3. Ewan MacKenzie says:

    That was three things, not a couple.

  4. Donald MacKenzie says:

    Sorry but Kezia said it, so it must be true!

    Poor lass. I’m sure her daddy still loves her.

  5. Sandra says:

    She needs to grow up and realise she’s the irrational one.

  6. Indigo says:

    Wonder whether her Dad will post a link to this article?

  7. Marcia says:

    It would be nice if the MSM put links to all their articles for us to check. I doubt that will ever happen.

    Sunday Herald front page;

  8. paul gerard mccormack says:

    From someone who literally talks verbal diarrhoea. I just think she never grew up from when she was in 5th year at school. How else would you explain that utter lack of any humility?

  9. findlay farquaharson says:

    i hope jeff donates to wings, just to really piss some off

  10. Alison rollo says:

    I must be the ultimate optimist but but I keep expecting Kezia to finally say she agrees with Daddy and say she is joining SNP!!!!

  11. scottish lass says:

    Sure her dad won’t find that patronising in the least…

  12. Itchybiscuit says:

    Aye, and if it’s not working out too well for her by the end of the next Scottish parliament she’s off – leaving politics behind for pastures new.

    I doubt she’ll stand for a constituency seat in 2016 though, that would be showing far too much commitment.

  13. Croompenstein says:

    Jeff seems like a decent guy so I won’t slag his wee lassie off but Kezia seems to have taken the wrong side I hope her dad can get through to her somehow.

  14. Onwards says:

    What’s illogical is sticking with a party with a leader she doesn’t believe in.

    Or trying to pretend that Labour in Scotland can be autonomous, when head office in London can slap them down at any time.

    She seems nice enough personally, but doesn’t have the gravitas to be FM. Or the ambition for this country that Sturgeon does.

    Why would anyone vote for a party that doesn’t want more powers and responsibility for the very parliament that they want to lead?

  15. Westviews says:

    Is a couple of things not still two? Kez will think you’ve gone over to the dark side. Oh wait! I used Kez & think in the same sentence.

  16. Cadogan Enright says:

    Kezias Dad for MSP

    At least he bases his opinions on facts, not lies

  17. When were we ever one nation? I suppose from a Labour perspective when they had more MPs than any other party and assumed that we were all sheep and as thick as mutton GTF lass as never voted for your party or believed your lies in all of my 49 years of voting history.

  18. yesindyref2 says:

    @Alison rollo
    Dugdale has taken Labour to a neutral stance on Indy (apparently). I’d prefer for her to take Labour the whole hog (with apologies to Cameron), rather than join the SNP.

  19. bookie from hell says:

    REV when you tweeted I’ve caught Kezia Dugdale lying five times

    The Scotsman pulled the article

    I was reading it at the time–while it disappeared

  20. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “That was three things, not a couple.”

    Colloquial use, defensible.

  21. Craig B says:

    It’s like back in the day when your mate got you a ticket for optimo at the subby on Sunday and your working on Monday. Nae need man, but gallos.

  22. yesindyref2 says:

    I was going to say something, but why tip off the other side?

    Keep up the good work Rev, keep it clean or at least use some anti-bacterial before handling the other side. And remember – coughs and sneezes, spread diseases.

  23. Croompenstein says:

    Of course WoS is not relevant because Stu lives in Bath, the unionists war cry.

    Brilliant set to on twitter with Stu and Brillo, Kezia should take some notes 🙂

  24. Bob Mack says:

    100,000 ?
    Think she underestimates how wide an audience is informed by your postings Rev. Your information is spread far and wide and I would be willing to lay odds that many of the Yes voters have knowledge of your site even if they have never visited.

  25. Onwards says:

    Alison rollo says:
    24 October, 2015 at 10:42 pm
    “I must be the ultimate optimist but but I keep expecting Kezia to finally say she agrees with Daddy and say she is joining SNP!!!!”

    Lol, I keep thinking the same. Or at the very least, register Scottish Labour as a genuine stand-alone party.

    Dugdale thinks Corbyn is unelectable in England, so the alternative is the Tories ruling over Scotland for at least another decade.

    Is that what she really wants?

    I expect Kezia has loyalty to Lord Foulkes and the like, and doesn’t have what it takes to shake off their shadow.

  26. ArtyHetty says:

    Oh I see kez, so, reading and watching the corporate media day in day out, enables the followers of such, to somehow make political decisions objectively and rationally?

    She is however, sounding like my Newcastle, rabid unionist friends who felt it reasonable to patronise Scottish people in favour of independence, and especially those with any connection to the SNP, as they were just being utterly ’emotional’.

    Hmmm, they would have us all sectioned if they could, because, we must surely be insane.

    I am sure I spotted a few hairs on their palms though.

  27. galamcennalath says:

    Kezia needs to listen to her Dad much more often. He’s clued up on what’s actually going on!

  28. Sunniva says:

    At least she acknowledges the profound disconnect between the MSM and the rest of us. Pity she blames the rest of us and doesn’t question the MSM.

  29. Bob Mack says:

    Interesting times on twitter Rev.I hope the self grandising Neil takes up your offer.

  30. Ewan MacKenzie says:

    Colloquial, but definitely, indubitably wrong.

    If you do it again I will literally explode.

  31. Macart says:

    Oh jeez!

    Ms Dugdale, never knowingly accurate or honest and to bring her family into a media point snarking exercise. What was she thinking?

    Ohhhh wait… never mind that last sentence.

  32. Kezia like the majority of her and her colleagues have jumped on that ship as a way to better themselves and SFA to do what is best for Scotland.

  33. Robert Louis says:

    Here’s a bit of news for Kezia.

    I’ve been coming on this site since it began, and from day one, I have done my own checking on things here. I do the same with other sites like newsnet scotland and so on. It is simply NOT blind dogma which I gullibly swallow, because it ‘fits’ with an independence narrative.

    Like many of the people on this site, I am very well educated, but want Scottish independence, not for emotional reasons but for simple logical reasons. Since I was very young I have never understood why Scotland MUST, just MUST, be run by a Parliament in England, whose main priority is England, and where Scottish representation makes up just 9% of the total. Dependence is simply not normal.

    So Kezia, here’s the point, I like many here, do check the facts, unlike unionists such as yourself who still believe that the UK is good for Scotland, when in fact every piece of empirical FACTUAL data since 1707 shows it simply not to be the case.

    Kezia, yours is the emotional attachment, your is the dogma devoid of fact. Yours is the ‘rule Britannia, better together, union jackery’ hysteria, utterly lacking in substantive data. What was the factual argument used in the referendum against independence? Nothing. The only arguments against independence were emotive hubris and not so thinly veiled threats of revenge from England – something with which YOUR party was complicit.

    Because you never check your information (as has been publicly demonstrated several times now) does not mean those who seek the restoration of Scottish independence do the same.

    Kezia, the way you glibly underestimate people such as myself, is the reason you are now the ‘North Britain Branch manager’ of a political party which has just experienced its largest ever political defeat in Scotland. A year ago you had 41 MP’s, and now you have 1. Time for YOU to sniff the coffee and wake up, perhaps?

    So go ahead, Kezia, keep naively believing we are all blue face painted nutters, junking up on pro independence propaganda with scant regard for facts if you wish, for it makes it all the easier for us to win.

  34. ArtyHetty says:

    Re yesindyref2

    Just to say, yes, I do think think the Goa-uld have infiltrated wm. D camoron would be perfect as the part for Apophus, without the looks. : ))

    Oh and when I was in N/castle, no one seemed to know what O/T means, it caused some confusion and laughs. Sorry, a bit O/T.

    I really just cannot take K Dugdale seriously, she seems like a mouthpiece, still the pay is quite good I guess, but she seems to possess zero in integrity.

  35. bookie from hell says:

    Gordon Brown appeared to quote one of the most famous lines from Macbeth to warn that a yes vote would be irreversible. “Once it’s done, it’s done,” he said

    Cameron tonight

    BBC reporting Cameron says a #Brexit vote is irreversible ie. no 2nd vote.

  36. Fred says:

    She’s chosen a career in politics but backed the wrong horse, one which no ammount of flogging will restore to live. Tough! 🙂

  37. bookie from hell says:

    Kezia article back in The Scotsman

    wonder if its been edited

  38. Robert Louis says:

    Just a point, the way in which Rev STU is being abused by so many establishment figures from the BBC tells us his influence is growing, and the unionists are feart.

    I do wonder given the concerted attacks made against REVstu and the indy movement recently, whether unionist internal polling is showing more increases in support for independence?

  39. Tackety Beets says:

    Jeff D seams like a reasonable and intelligent fellar. Quirky , yet funny , imaginative , entertaining tweets.
    We all love our offspring, my children tell me they voted YES and I am very confident they did.
    One emailed out the WBB pdf proclaiming his decision etc

    I always cringe when Kez takes a hammering , as I feel for Jeff having to watch his Kez heading for another “car crash”.

    How it will pan out under the Dugdale roof is their private matter.

    So Jeff if you get this far down the thread , a wee doff cap to you.

    Please Kez , for once , think about your parents before you engage your tongue.
    Slagging 45% , now 50% of the voters is not very tactical.

    KEZ use EVEL to your advantage and declare ,

    ” The introduction of EVEL at WM has changed Scotland’s standing within the UK to such an extent that I now believe Labour should support iScotland ”

    You know it makes sense!

    Rev, your work and work rate is exemplary.

  40. Onwards says:

    Robert Louis says:
    24 October, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    Like many of the people on this site, I am very well educated, but want Scottish independence, not for emotional reasons but for simple logical reasons.


    I don’t mind admitting that for me there is a logical AND an emotional argument.

    Obviously there is a clear rational case for self-government – democratically and economically.

    But I would also love to see the Saltire fluttering over Edinburgh castle.. or to see a Scottish Olympic team marching into the stadium.. or to see a new table at the UN Assembly.

    Because I would feel prouder to feel part of a country full of citizens that had the aspiration and confidence to take their future into their own hands, and become a normal nation in the world.

  41. MrObycyek says:

    You have more chance of finding a bumhole on a cartoon dug than you would have of finding an instance where Kezia Dugdale has said something intelligent.

    As for her reference to supposed credible sources, Kezia Dugdale it should be recalled was quick to condemn the First Minister when the whole leaked memo story first broke without ever bothering to check the basic facts. Does she even know what a source is? Only an idiot opens their mouth before they know what the shot is. She is not fit to be the leader of any party.

    Poor Kezia learned her craft from the great Lord Foulkes, a bigger buffoon in Westminster you could not find. If she was to bother to actually read Wings she might actually learn something.

    I am not anti English. I am anti Arsehole and unfortunately there seems to be quite a lot of them in Scotland. Many of whom appear on Morning Call on Radio Scotland during the week. People that are so bitter and twisted all you can do is pity them.

  42. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Procession of idiot twitters on the Sunday Herald front page. (supplied by Marcia at 10.39)

  43. SkewedPerspeXtive says:

    When I was a kid I always thought a couple of sweets meant 2 or 3.

    Mind you, I was a bit chubby.

  44. mealer says:

    Come on Kez! You and I know what we have now is a complete and utter fraud.Its time for Labour to stick up for Scotland.If you don’t have the guts for full independence,atleast get behind home rule.

  45. Ian Brotherhood says:

    If you’re just in, catching-up, please don’t miss Robert Louis’s comment at 11.24.

    Superb. With minor changes to names and stats, it equally applies to Ruthie and Rennie.

    It’s easy to say ‘fuck right off’, but to see it being done with such elan is profoundly satisfying.

    Here’s my favourite bit:

    ‘Kezia, yours is the emotional attachment, your is the dogma devoid of fact. Yours is the ‘rule Britannia, better together, union jackery’ hysteria, utterly lacking in substantive data. What was the factual argument used in the referendum against independence? Nothing. The only arguments against independence were emotive hubris and not so thinly veiled threats of revenge from England – something with which YOUR party was complicit.’

    Please, scroll-up now and read the rest. 🙂

  46. Robert Louis says:

    Onwards at 1154,

    I wholly agree with what you say. I do regard the union jack on Edinburgh Castle as nothing but an insult, two fingers up to the Scots. I have never seen it as anything else. Like yourself I long to see the flag of this country, the Saltire, flying there at the top.

    That aside, the point I was making, is that when it comes down to it though, the principal factors which would actually make me vote YES, are wholly rational and factual based.

  47. Macart says:

    @Robert Louis 11.24

    Well said RL.

  48. bookie from hell says:

    REV some labour member called you C word on Twitter and it wasn’t Castle

    Kezia in same pic



  49. yesindyref2 says:

    Good article in the Scotsman on Kezia Dugdale all the same, one her father would be proud of I think. Kids! They just won’t listen, they have to make the mistakes themselves.

  50. mealer says:

    Has abody put their clocks back an hour.(2 hours in Invergowrie)?

  51. bugsbunny says:

    Mealer, not yet, but the Unionist are responsible for trying to put the Calender back 325 years.


  52. steviecosmic says:

    For the life of me, I cannot fathom why the likes of ‘her’ still stand by an argument like the union; for me it’s like a group of unfortunates shouting that ‘everything’s going to be ok’ on the deck of the Titanic on that fateful night. My own family, on first name terms with most of the Labour clique at Westminster and Holyrood, still cling to the outdated and clearly bogus slanders of the SNP, because it protects them from the truth. I come from a family that has worked hand in glove with the Labour Party for decades and, shame aside, I am absolutely unable to have an a-partisan conversation about constitutional politics with them; it is always utterly tribal, and always ends up in me being the bad guy.

    Thus is our ‘nation’; a nation that either never was, or is simply one in the making.

    Arguments for the union, whether made by ‘her’or the Daily Record, now sound like an argument for buying Betamax, for those who remember; it just didn’t work out, it was always going to be shit.

  53. Robert Peffers says:

    Ye canna believe a wird the wee lassie spouts.

    My big laugh of the day was Willie Rennie’s speech. What galaxy is the wee nyaff from? He’s not even from the same galaxy never mind from a planet in this one.

    He calls the referendum, “damaging”, but in all my long years I’ve never known so many Scots so clued up and engaged with politics. He claims, “The police, NHS and Schools should take priority”, but there are now more police on the beat than ever before and the crime rate is at an all time low while the solved crime rate is an all time high. The NHS has just built a great new hospital and international authorities say that the Scots are the among the very best educated people in Europe.

    Then the wee numptie pleads for voters to return to the LibDems. Why doses the wee numptie imagine they left them in the first place?

  54. bookie from hell says:

    JEREMY Corbyn is set to miss the headline debate on scrapping Trident at this week’s Scottish Labour conference, it has emerged.

    The UK leader will address delegates at the start of the three-day event in Perth on Friday.

    But despite saying earlier this year that, win or lose the Labour leadership, he would attend specifically for the Trident debate, Corbyn is due to leave town before it comes up.

  55. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @steviecosmic –

    ! It’s yourself!

    I can’t remember if we were buddies or enemies, but I do remember your name figuring prominently in some epic debates right here.

    I might regret saying this, but what the fuck – it’s good to see you back! 🙂

  56. Croompenstein says:

    Wish I could turn the clock back to when the majority of folk who lived in Scotland had the best interests of Scots at heart. That’s the thing Kezia although you say your party is autonomous I don’t believe you and it’s time you decided are you for us or against us

  57. Sunniva says:

    I feel for Jeff, he must be proud of his lassie as well as sad and concerned about her at the same time. It’s not an easy task she has. I wish people would therefore temper any criticisms they may have of her record and keep it strictly impersonal.

  58. Petra says:

    What a situation to be in! Kezia no doubt truly loves her Dad as he does her. And that will never change.

    Kezia is wandering and floundering about in the wilderness but this has been overrided and consolidated with her inflated ego being super-charged with becoming the Leader of a Party (Keir Hardy in Scotland) that doesn’t actually exist anymore. Doh! She’s just a daft wee lassie, secretary / lackey or scapegoat for Mr Corbyn now as she was for Miliband beforehand (two daft, wee and very ordinary Englishmen …. not Scots). Murphy has also set her up to fail as he did (take the flack / limelight off of him).

    I really do admire young women getting on in Scotland but her focus is on constantly attacking the SNP to the detriment of the Scots (Labours quest for decades now other than stabbing each other in the back). And I must say I’m sick and tired of listening to her whining voice and looking at her nasty screwed up face: the face of a wee ACTRESS trying to kid everyone on that she actually cares about Scotland and the Scots. Daddy must see that too.

    Why wont she support Nicola Sturgeon when she is doing her utmost under the most dire of circumstances? When the Labour Party were in power in Scotland they weren’t faced with Tory austerity cuts. Labours record prior to the Tories being in power was absolutely abysmal financially and morally: here, down south and abroad.

    And yes we have to move on and forget. Forget the past and believe in our current politicians. Not forever blame the Labour Party’s or countries failures on Blair and Brown.

    Kezia has the power to do so now but she doesn’t. She’s just another in a long line of weak Tory and Labour politicians who just don’t get Scotland worst still really care for the Scots.

    One word of advice to Kezia Dugdale if you really care about Scotland and the Scots listen to DADDY and forget about Clegg, Chrichton and Murphy et al. They don’t care about YOU (give ONE whit for you) worst still the Scots Kezia. WAKE UP AND SEE THE LIGHT.

  59. Croompenstein says:

    Kezia I cannae spell.. it’s not cannae Croomp it’s cannot, aye ok Miss, it’s not aye Croomp it’s yes ok ta Miss, it’s not ta Croomp it’s thankyou….aaarggh fuck off…

  60. willie says:

    As a general rule folks should generally resist pejorative personal comment.

    It is however difficult to do so when you read the utter pish that Ms Dugdale trots out when she says that she understands how her ( impliedly stupid) father has his clearly erroneous ( in her opinion ) political beliefs reinforced by Wings Over Scotland.

    In one foul stroke this little numpty attacks her father in the most patronising way possible by making her Dad out to be a moron who only reads to reinforce his already formed views.

    Indeed, the sentiment that’s doing the rounds just now in Labour circles is that the electorate have caught a virus that’s affecting their judgement.

    What arrogance from a party who believes that they are right and the electorate wrong – and their leader’s attack on her Dad typifies this perfectly.

    She’d clearly sell her Granny would this one in pursuit of her discredited party. But in truth won’t have the opportunity because the electorate will see her and the remnants of her party dispatched next May.

    And that’ll be a relief I suspect to her Dad who must be quietly hurting by her patronising comments about him.

  61. Ghillie says:

    What on earth has that silly wee girl been saying now?

    Sorry Kesia, I didn’t mean to sound quite so patronising but you did set the tone.

  62. Proud Cybernat says:

    Here’s my second wee video in my BBC / Corporate Media propaganda debuning. This time I’m (with Wing’s help of course) debunking the utter guff printed and broadcast oncerning the SNP Goverment’s management of our Scottish NHS.

    Here is the video link:

    *DISCLAIMER* I accept no responsibility for anyone wetting themselves.

  63. Petra says:

    Kezia I ask you to start reading, like your father, the articles and posts on Wings. I REALLY hope that you do.

    Then DOUBLE / TRIPLE check the FACTS, as I do, to see or not if you actually agree with what is being said on here.

    I would also add that most people who visit this site are (fairly or) highly intelligent and not prone to being ‘duped’.

  64. Ghillie says:

    Actualy Kezia,

    Independence is exactly so we can be one nation again. The nation of Scotland.

    The Referendum brought about the most amazing reawakening of the people of Scotland.

    And I think we may also be seeing that reawakening filtering through to the people of Wales, North of Ireland and England too. Surely as a politician you should welcome that, your constituents forming their own opinons and wanting to have their voices heard? (Or is that one of the sillier comments I’ve ever made?)

    If there are rifts now amongst folk who thought they once knew each other it may be because they have now discovered that they do not share the same values afterall(speaking from my own experience)and that this thing called Independence is far too dear to our hearts and far too vital to the safe and fair running of our own country to be laid aside like it was a silly wee idea in the first place.

    You just don’t get it. Do you Kezia?

  65. donald anderson says:

    I follow wings for quality information impossible to get on the lying British Nationalist and emotionally chauvinistic Union Jack waving MSM, not chit chat. Wings is a super source.

    Unfortunately, my machine broke doon when the Rev attacked the Gaelic and I could not reply at the time. But, we are allowed to disagree on. I am a Republican Socialist. Many are not, The brutal, “subtle, economic attacks now reduced to sheer ridicule and racism that cost rivers of blood and tears, far beyond the costs of signposts and inadequate subsidies (the Rev acknowledged that the signpost doubled up n Saxon and paid for itself. The towrists appreciate it too. Labour’s historical Imperialist attacks on Gaelic. Welsh, Irish and Cornish cultures, as well as many other native languages is unforgivable and, yes. sheer Nazism, another irrational lie that they like to place upon Scottish anti Imperialist nationalism.

    All my life I have grown up with Labour Party members anti Scottish racism, self-loathing and self hatred. The terrors of a piece of confectionery, shortbread, a piece of cloth, Tartans, and the great Highland bagpipes, or pibrochaid have lived in their propaganda far beyond the murder of the Proscriptions Acts and are still deep in the Labour, class and North British ("Tractor" - Ed)s, (deny that?) collaborator’s psyche. At onetime they could not hold sensible, or rational discussion on TV without “wittily” repeating their national stereotype venom of ridicule and hatred.

    The latest English poll found Labour irrelevant with no difference between them and the official Tories (Brit Nats), excepting that they were less competent. Each Labour Government and their austerity measures was worse than the last and an absolute disgrace to any logical pretence of socialism.

    I can only cringe for Ms Dugdale’s worthy parents when she stupidly claimed to be “anti establishment”. The Labour motto now ought to be, “Ignorance is Bliss”.

    Long may the golden Wings of light fly over Scotland and hurry off the flight of the forces of the darkness and despair and all the hoodie craws that craws for doom.

  66. Petra says:

    donald anderson says at 2:35 am ” …….. Long may the golden Wings of light fly over Scotland and hurry off the flight of the forces of the darkness and despair and all the hoodie craws that craws for doom.”

    How very, very profound Donald. It’s extremely late now but I would like to say that this is what Wings over Scotland means for me. I love my country …. it’s in my blood and in my bones. It flowed through my ancestors as it does my young relatives and no doubt my descendants along the line when I am gone.

    I’m totally enraged with individuals exploiting and raping my country. No more I say as no doubt many on here will say too. You tried to steal our freedom, our sense of identity, our history, our accomplishments, our land, our seas and of course everything that would have made us one of the richest countries in the World … such as our oil.

    Now you want to frack here. Frack to line your own pockets and in the process destroy our land, water, air, tourist and whisky industry. Frack because we have over 31,000 lochs (water an essential) whilst England has 80 lakes most of which are safeguarded as drinking water. Well over my dead body.

    This is a video of the Scotland I love …. a VERY small part of it. Wings over Scotland. CONTINUE TO STAND TOGETHER AND FIGHT FOR IT.

  67. CameronB Brodie says:

    In case it has not already been pointed out, there is no political party registered under the name “Scottish Labour”. It is an imaginary beast designed to mislead the gullible. There is only British Labour, which is headquartered in London.

    @ Kezia Dugdale
    So are you thick as shit or simply dishonest?

  68. Sharny Dubs says:

    Croompenstein says:

    Kezia I cannae spell.. it’s not cannae Croomp it’s cannot, aye ok Miss, it’s not aye Croomp it’s yes ok ta Miss, it’s not ta Croomp it’s thankyou….aaarggh fuck off…

    Uh!! Uh!! hail from Aberdeen it’s not Uh? it’s fit?

  69. Grouse Beater says:

    Andrew Neil exposed, and it’s not a pretty sight:

    (Children should cover their eyes.)

  70. Effijy says:

    There is more chance of the Rev getting a Knighthood that Dippity Dug ever saying anything credible or truthful.

    I feel sorry for her Dad having to read comments like this but thankfully I think he can see all too clearly where we are coming from.

    An earlier claim said she was a “nice” person, but is it nice knowing perfectly well the majority of your statements are kies designed to fool the electorate and mask the truth.

    She was Dim Jim’s right hand in all the dirty dealings during the referendum.

    She knows we are plagued by the need for food banks yet she votes for further austerity cuts.

    She knows all too well the largest party does Not for the government.

    She followed her Labour London lead and refused to condemn the
    Bedroom Tax, a Tax where 81% of those adversely affected are disabled. So No, she isn’t a nice person, she lies for a living, with a view to gaining personal fame and fortune.

  71. john king says:

    galamcennalath says:

    Kezia needs to listen to her Dad much more often. He’s clued up on what’s actually going on!

    He should send her to her room to think about what she has done,

    listen tae yer faither Kez!

    Ewan McKenzie says

    Colloquial, but definitely, indubitably wrong.

    If you do it again I will literally explode.”

    a couple of, more than two, but not many, of; a small number of; a few: It will take a couple of days for the package to get there.
    A dinner party, whether for a couple of old friends or eight new acquaintances, takes nearly the same amount of effort.
    Also, Informal, a couple.
    from pedanstrus
    Macart says

    “Ms Dugdale, never knowingly accurate or honest and to bring her family into a media point snarking exercise. What was she thinking?”

    she broke the cardinal rule
    keep your family out of it
    here be dragons!
    Thats it!
    close the post,
    Robert Lewis @ 11.24 has it covered. 😉
    Steviecosmic says
    “Arguments for the union, whether made by ‘her’or the Daily Record, now sound like an argument for buying Betamax, ”

    Ok ok dont rub it in
    mine is still in the shed along with th eight track cassette and the Sinclair c5. 🙁
    Ghillie says
    “Or is that one of the sillier comments I’ve ever made?) ”

    Proud Cybernats post @1.49
    click on the link folks youll be as impressed as I was!
    Effejy says
    “So No, she isn’t a nice person, she lies for a living, with a view to gaining personal fame and fortune.”

    I spite of the fact I wouldnt want to offend her father I agree with that Effigy.

  72. Tam Jardine says:

    Kezia sounds defeated… why can’t people just believe what they read in the papers and vote labour or tory and stop making trouble.

    The FT is, after all, just good, honest journalism. Impartial, like the Guardian or BBC…

    Interesting choice of paper to give as an example – a newspaper read by so few in Scotland. Why didn’t she use the Times? Or the Guardian? Or the Telegraph? Or the Independent? Probably because the FT is stretching credibility whilst using the Telegraph as an example would simply be ridiculous.

    Talking of ridiculous, I was looking at the Telegraph – interesting story beneath the snp bad headline.

    So the evil nats are making veterans stand out in the cold for literally hours whilst Angus Robertson has the temerity to take his sweet time laying an individual wreath and to hell with the veterans.

    This new arrangement, having all opposition leaders lay their wreaths together for the first time has nothing, of course to do with disguising the SNP’s role as 3rd largest party in Westminster. It has nothing to do with conflating the SNP with the DUP and lib dems – the other minor parties. In front of a large UK BBC audience, where the SNP’s status as 3rd party is laid bare before the public.

    What’s that? If they care so much about keeping the veterans out of the cold that they want to shave another twenty seconds or off the time they could just have ALL the leaders laying their wreaths together? No that won’t do at all.

    Anyway – it’s jingo all the way in the torygraph. I’ve rarely read an article that shows so effectively how terrified the establishment is of the SNP.

  73. davidb says:

    A lot of you are already putting out literature for May, or about to.

    I cannot say that I always agree with this site, however I know it provides a valuable function. It refutes logically the tirade of propaganda we get from all other media sources.

    I remember during Yes, handing out a wee card with websites listed. I think that’s how I found BfS. I know we have issues with less tech savvy, and ill informed older people. But short of owning the Daily Returd I cannot see how to get to them.

    But for the rest of the population could people consider privately, and unofficially of course, printing business cards with the website addresses of this and other Yes sites, along with the QR codes for them? Business cards are dirt cheap, and we are going to flier every door in Scotland at least once.

    They have no power over us once we stop believing them.

  74. caz-m says:

    Kezia might have another new leader sooner than she thinks.

    The Independent:-

    “Jeremy Corbyn faces leadership challenge from Simon Danczuk if Labour perform badly in May’s elections.”

    Mr Danczuk, you don’t need to wait until May to find out how Scottish Labour will do in the Holyrood elections. I can tell you right now, Scottish Labour are going to get humped in May.

    I know it has been said many many times before, but it has to be said again, the London Labour Party just “don’t get Scotland”.

  75. winifred McCartney says:

    We read wings because we do not believe the MSM or Kezia Dugdale – she lies and lies – remember listen and listen again and still not hear – well the rest of us DID hear and we were horrified at the blatant lies you told.

  76. heedtracker says:

    Its never lies in teamGB politics, its spin. Take the facts, flip them around, attack, spin

    “Kezia Dugdale believes her personal insight into voter apathy and national division has equipped her for ‘mission impossible’,

    Scottish voters apathetic? sure Kez.

    National division, now we vote won’t red tory.

    Faught BBC hardman to stop Scotland becoming a nation again, but still say nation Kez.

    Personal insight, spin, if they didn’t have the BBC etc where would they be.

    And from same far right Hootsman crew that daubed a swastika on my countries flag too.

    Bankrupt blue tory rag, boosts end of era red tory spin doc, shock.

  77. Capella says:

    People like Kezia Dugdale get a platform in the Corporate Media because they routinely back up the status quo of Establishment rule.

    For us, there is Wings, long may they fly over us.

    Great article and some excellent comments as ever. Thanks to Robert Louis, Donald Anderson, Petra and others.

  78. Giving Goose says:

    OT apologies.

    I see that good friend of Scotland JK Rowling is apposing a cultural boycot of Israel as put forward by Brian Eno and Ken Loach.

    Onside with JK are Eric Pickles and Simon Schama. They signed an open letter in the Guardian.
    The Palestinians strangely didn’t sign it.

  79. heedtracker says:

    “In Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP government must expedite the temporary nationalisation of the two steel plants in Motherwell and Cambuslang. The price for doing this must be set against the cost, for the next three generations, of unemployment and the physical and mental wellbeing of a community.

    If millionaire bankers and affluent gentlemen farmers are worth saving, then so are our steelworkers.”

    Rancid The Graun, same ol rule Britannia red tory garbage today.

    The UKOK union is for ever and ever, the sweaties know this because we say so.

    Help us Nic Sturgeon, you’re the only one, who can save us from teamGB.

    SNP bad.


  80. Francis Mooney says:

    Now that you know that she is watching, maybe you should restate a few things to her, just for clarity!

  81. sensibledave says:

    Whilst I have no truck with Ms Dugdale’s politics, I do understand her point – and you only have to look at the threads for Friday here on Wings to see an example of it.

    During the EVEL debate in Westminster, Tommy Sheppard contributed and included this fire and brimstone piece:

    “… if this goes through, then from tonight onwards, I will be denied the opportunity to vote on behalf of the people who elected me on matters that affect them ……”

    The dog whistle had been blown and, on Friday, the outrage poured out via Wingers. I note that some of the same points are still being made above by Wingers that have not yet quite caught up.

    So, why did Tommy Sheppard say what he did? Was it:

    a) Because he is totally inept and didn’t understand the legislation before him

    or b) because he wasn’t really speaking to the House (all the other MPs present knew what he was saying wasn’t true) he was speaking directly to Scots, and to the SNP home crowd in particular – in the knowledge that no one would question what he was saying and that his troops would project his faux outrage, unquestioningly, although his contribution was a lie.

  82. Quakeawake says:

    I was ready to rip into Kezia when I read her patronising waffle but then I read Tackety Beets (11.52pm) and stopped.

    Now is indeed the time to be positive, Kezia.

    EVEL IS your opportunity. Give it careful thought. It’s a denial of the Union. You want to do what is right for Scotland etc, etc. The only way forward is independence.

    We’ll help you write the press release.

    Just think, you could even be credited with being the one who created a real Labour party in Scotland. It would be a great Chrissie present for your Dad.

  83. Martin says:

    That’s a bit insulting to Jeff, wonder if she ran it past him first…

  84. Ruby says:

    Labour research found that:

    ‘voters north of the Border no longer feel angry about the party “taking Scotland for granted”. But this is only because they think the party is “simply an irrelevance”.

    That is exactly what I feel about Kezia Dugdale & SLAB.

    Kezia Dugdale & SLAB are simply an irrelevance

    The anger towards Tony Blair on the other hand has not disappeared. The press is full of stories about that war criminal today and it’s got me hopping mad!

    The sight of Tony Blair’s face plastered all over the press has got me hopping mad!

  85. Big Jock says:

    Did you ever stop to think that your dad might just be Right Kezia! Or do you have such an emotional irrational attachment to mother England. That you just can’t see the harm it has done and continues to do to your nation.

  86. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave, can you do the world of rule Britannia UKOKdom a big favour and just type-

    All SNP are liars, over and over. You’re getting very boring dear.

    Thanks in advance sensible.

  87. Chic McGregor says:

    I wonder if Kezia Dugdale is acquainted with the wisdom of Mark Twain?

    In particular the following famous quote, although with several posthumous variants:

    “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years. — Mark Twain” (Readers Digest version)

  88. mealer says:

    Sensibledave 8.36,
    Tommy Sheppard sticks up for Scotland.He’s on our side.Scotlands side.Get it?

  89. Ruby says:

    Quakeawake says:

    Kezia will be on QT this week.

    Do you think there will be a question about EVEL?

    I’m getting curious about the ‘sensible daves’ On the Herald you’ve got a couple of regular ‘sensible daves’ Paul Wusterman and John McIntyre OBE (Although I think he might have a new user name) and The Scotsman is just jam packed with ‘sensible daves’

    Who are these people and what are their aims & objectives?

    Are these ‘sensible daves’ just total headbangers who should be dismissed like Kezia as a total irrelevance or are they part of the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Campaign’?

  90. Chic McGregor says:


    “Tommy Sheppard sticks up for Scotland.He’s on our side.Scotlands side.Get it?”

    Stands up, surely? 🙂

  91. Quakeawake says:

    @Ruby I think EVEL is bound to come up on QT.

    Maybe that’ll be our Kez’s chance. Renounce the Union live on the Beeb! I would pay good money to see that.

    Popcorn ordered.

  92. mealer says:

    Ruby 8.48,
    I tend to think of Labour as a hinderance.I wish they would just get out the road and let Scotland move on to a better,fairer,nuclear free future.I think they’re going to have to start moving in the same direction as the nation.Or die.The vast majority of their voters and former voters support independence or home rule.

  93. The most common comment we get on the doorsteps of former Labour strongholds, and we’ll be out amongst them again this afternoon, is that, “they, Labour, stood with the tories during the referendum campaign, and we’ll never vote for them again”.
    So whatever Kezia says, they aint getting her message, whatever that may be.

  94. caz-m says:

    With Kezia’s continued support for the Union, she is actually admitting that she is comfortable with Scotland being under Tory rule for the next twenty or thirty years, rather than an Independent Scotland being in control of her own destiny.

    Kezia, you have NO vision for or confidence in Scotland.

    That is why Scottish Labour are in such a state.

  95. sensibledave says:

    mealer 8:56 am

    You wrote: “Tommy Sheppard sticks up for Scotland.He’s on our side. Scotlands side. Get it?”

    Of course I understand that Tommy Sheppard is on the side of those Scots that want Independence. But don’t you think we should expect more of our politicians, any of them, than to deliberately mislead the electorate.

    The point being discussed was dog whistle politics where supporters are called to arms on a totally false premise.

  96. Ruby says:

    The Sensible Daves are UKOK Better Together hate preachers

    Probably paid by J K Rowling!

    I’d better go and do some meditation these UKOK Better Together sensible dave hate preachers along with the UKOK Better Together War Criminal saying I’m sorry has got me well wound up!

  97. heedtracker says:

    Who are these people and what are their aims & objectives?

    Sensible’s a tory activist and OBE of the Herald is just a hack at the Herald. Their objectives are pretty fundamental, bring down SNP, get SLabour back in, close down Scotland’s road to independence, like everyone in the BBC, STV, all newsrooms across the country.

  98. Ruby says:

    Quakeawake says:
    25 October, 2015 at 9:04 am

    @Ruby I think EVEL is bound to come up on QT.

    It will be interesting to see if it does or doesn’t. Ian Bell writing in the Herald reckoned there was a

    Deafening silence as usual suspects draw veil over Evel

    I’ve gotta go! Bye

  99. Andrew McLean says:

    vincit omnia veritas.

  100. JLT says:

    Kezia lass …you really need to stop and think at times. I don’t think your a daft lassie, but rather, at times, just naïve.

    I have no problem with people having an opinion for as long as they can back it up with a source to state it as fact. You can assume, but you need to state that it as an assumption and not fact. This allows people to ponder on your statement and decide for themselves. Quoting a stat from the top of your head and saying ‘it just is’ simply won’t work. That is what children do when they pretend that something is when they know that it might not be.

    Wings is extremely popular for one reason because Stuart backs up the facts with a ton of links. It’s why his site is the Number 1 site championing Scottish Independence. There are a ton of other sites, but this is the one that I and many others come to, because not only is the owner bloody good at fact-finding, but the people who comment here are also on the same wave-length. No one here screeches for ‘UDI’. No one screams about hating the English. No one here condemns Britain in any other sense except its political nature. Everyone here acknowledges that they are British in a cultural sense though our hearts are purely Scottish.

    Overall Kezia, it is the political machinations of the British State that we detest and oppose. The media, the systematic abuses, the portrayal of the Royals, and the open condemnation should anyone frown at the Union Jack. That is what we don’t like about political Britain.

    You should listen to your father a lot more instead of the Labour analysts who have over the decades, come to detest and blind themselves against anything they perceive as independence. So narrow has their view become that in Scotland, they no longer have a clue as to which leader to hold up, what ideology to follow …or where it is that they are really going. It is no wonder that the Tories are literally on their bending knees and thanking God that Labour are the opposition …because with such a split party as yours …it will heal never again …ever.

  101. sensibledave says:

    Ruby 9:10 am

    “The Sensible Daves are UKOK Better Together hate preachers. Probably paid by J K Rowling!

    1. I don’t care whether Scotland remains part of the Union or not.

    2. Suggesting that I am a “Hate Preacher” is, I regret to say Ruby, nothing more than an outright, deliberate lie based entirely on your prejudice and bias. If you can show one example of me preaching hate – then show it!

    3. You, Ruby, are the hate preacher. This is supposed to be a forum for discussing and debating politics. For the sake of some argument you want to make, you decide my politics for me, you decide to tell others what I think – and then based upon the straw man you have created, all on your own, you ask others to agree with your characterisation and join in with it.

    I would suggest that is that “hate preaching” Ruby.

  102. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible Dave
    Yesterday we posted each other, you made a similar point, I said read this link, but you only got the first line, now it mentions other parties that agreed with us that this EVEL is a bloody bad move if your intention is the preservation of the union, not to acknowledge that, is disingenuous at best, a lie by omission at worst!

  103. Dave Hansell says:

    Ms Dugdale is obviously projecting when she talks about media organisations reinforcing belief.

    The Enlightenment has clearly passed her by. Gone straight over her head. What we are left with is just another empty vessel echoing the infantilisation of everything on behalf of the 1%. Just another usable idiot who will be discarded and disposed of when she is no longer required.

    A sad, pathetic case really.

  104. Ghillie says:

    Donald Anderson and Petra @2.35am and 3.15am (and many others)

    It seems that somehow Kezia’s remarks have triggered off an incredibly heartfelt and personal string of comments. Maybe we were needing a chance to air our gut feelings, as that is exactly what was being denigrated and challenged.

    Well said. You speak for me too =)

  105. HandandShrimp says:

    The people that keep going on about the referendum and how we are a divided nation are not the Yes voters (although obviously we look forward to changing the minds of No voters in the future) it is the very, very bitter No voters. That is not all No voters by any means, just the hardcore ones that campaigned for a No vote.

    Why do they keep going on about a divided nation, why do they keep talking up bitterness and strife?

    Partly I think it is because they won the referendum and lost the aftermath. They were banking on Yes and the SNP disintegrating after the vote rather than going from strength to strength. Also I think it is because for some at least on some level, they know their pitch requires them to constantly diminish and talk down Scotland. That can’t be a happy place. I’m not convinced that Kezia is in a happy place.

    That said, for some like Mundell and Baillie it seems to be a very happy place 🙂

  106. Wuffing Dug says:

    Currently wondering if I can get my browser to automatically redact all sensible daves posts from the threads.

    Is this possible?

    Let’s stamp out the ideological pollution, it’s getting annoying and has no place here. Totally pointless, not constructive at all.

    It’s more offensive than swearing and I’m among the worst for that 🙂

  107. Richardinho says:

    It is true that I read WoS because it expresses a viewpoint that I agree with, but I wouldn’t be a regular reader if I thought it was just one man spouting off his uninformed opinion. The fact that the articles on here do link to external sources is VERY important to me.The last thing I want is to be stuck in an echo chamber and be isolated from the outside world.

    I am conscious that that is still a danger so I do try and read other sources.

    As it happens I do also read the Financial Times and that’s because my guess is that people who are making business decisions want real news not propaganda such as is dished out by most other news outlets these days.

  108. David Briggs says:


    Whatever you’re trying to preach it isn’t working. An evangelist you aren’t. Actually you’re insulting us by even trying to peddle beads to the Scottish natives. Beads don’t work any more.

  109. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    25 October, 2015 at 9:24 am
    Ruby 9:10 am

    1. I don’t care whether Scotland remains part of the Union or not.

    2. Suggesting that I am a “Hate Preacher” is

    It’s not suggestion sensible, your 1. is big UKOK whopper too.

    Brevity sensible. Try some:D

  110. Grouse Beater says:

    Dippy Dave is back to ensure we all understand we are half-wits and he, only he, has the key to intelligent thought.

    He is, of course, what Americans call a fuckwit. Here are a few others:

  111. Bob Mack says:

    Just for information sensiledave .
    Wingers do not suffer from operant ,or classical conditioning, or auto suggestion.We actually believe in a free Scotland.
    Really creepy is it not to want to be in charge of your own destiny.

    We want our freedom to choose. Others want to keep us tied to an alternative state. Who is right?
    I know my choice,and I know yours. We cannot be reconciled it appears.

  112. De Valera says:

    Another example of the Labour “You’re all deluded, come ‘home’ to us” mindset.

    I wonder what Corbyn will have to say at the British Labour in Scotland confrence.
    A man who knows little about Scotland and likes it even less

  113. Capella says:

    @Wuffing Dog
    Agree! I once promised never to post on the topic of Ts again. The only remedy is complete and total ignoral. Not to respond or even use the name or the word T****.
    It takes a little discipline but is less bother than having to scroll past the Ts, then the replies to Ts. They wither and die through lack of attention.

  114. One_Scot says:

    Here’s an idea, why don’t we all agree to have a ‘Boycott a Troll day’.

  115. gus1940 says:

    After reading today’s vomit inducing hymn of praise to Dugdale in SoS it occurred to me that something was omitted in the biographical history of our NB Branch Leaderene – namely that she at one stage prior to getting the job of Zebedee’s gopher she had unsuccessfully applied for a job with the SNP.

    Nobody seems to have ever asked her what were her motives and more importantly political beliefs for doing so.

    In yesterday’s Scotsman Comments I couldn’t help noticing that there is a faction within the blinkered and brainwashed brigade of unionist fans who fill the Comments with their verbal excreta who are under the impression that Rev. Stu has joined battle with them hiding under a nom de plume.

    Do they really imagine that Stu would waste his time debating with such a bunch of cretins and that if he did he would hide under a nom de plume?

  116. gordoz says:

    Pretty sure the complete Politerati read WoS (inc our Kez!)

    She protesteth too much !

    ie – you idiots should stop reading the material we have no control over.

    Big Sister politics on display.

  117. Wuffing Dug says:

    Seen some really good ideas being developed on here recently with strategies to counter CM etc.

    Sensible dave is just an parasitic agitator who’s main goal is disruption and it’s working.

    He’ll be getting off on every one of his rule britannia interventions.

    He could be harvesting information for all we know, who in their right mind would return somewhere, time after time for a kicking.

    There is an ulterior motive. There always is.

  118. gus1940 says:

    Well – that’s the Marr Show over and surprise surprise not a mention of EVEL.

    Still, I suppose both the Brillo and Brewer sections of The Sunday Politics will be about nothing else other than EVEL – NOT.

  119. Ken500 says:

    Wings is brilliant. Simply the best

    Rev Stu is genius

  120. Angra Mainyu says:

    Do yo think when Dugdale took that job she imagined whe was the person to turn things around? Did she imagine that people would suddenly — somehow — be persuaded by her charm or the force of her arguments? I guess she must have. I guess even Lamont thought that.

    Just imagine the crowds lining the streets when they hear Kezia is coming. The pregnant expectation as she positions herself behind the mic and prepares to talk to her people. Dugdalemania, the fanfare with music, smiles, and balloons.

    And in academia lights go on across the country. People with polo necks and goatie beards stay up late discussing Kezia’s insights over wine and Pringles, night after night after night. It’s official, she’s the most quoted woman alive, the stuff of PHD theses.

  121. Tam Jardine says:

    JLT 9.22am

    Was going to post something but you have nailed it right there.

    Hate preachers? Jesus wept- let’s not understate it! I think we have to be careful not to lose sight of what we are discussing here – the constitutional settlement of Scotland and the political future. It’s all gone a bit black Sabbath

    Sensible pulls up Ruby on the term then fires it right back! What next – am tellin… or ma big brothers bigger than your big brother?

  122. Ephemeraldeception says:

    It’s a bit risky for a public figure to call their immediate family emotional, irrational and misled.

    Such public comments could escalate and shows she is not suited or ready to govern any country.

  123. Marie Clark says:

    One_Scot says ” Here’s an idea, why don’t we all agree to have a “Boycott a Troll day”.

    I’m with you you on that one. The troll is oot early the day, must be the change o the clock.

    Please folks, stop feeding the trolls. Some of you think it’s fun, but it ain’t. It’s just boring. It usually ends up hijacking the topic, which is really what they want.

    This I think why, some of us are not posting very much at all at the moment. Just need peace from the utterly inane crapfest that feeding the trolls introduce.

    They’re not here to learn anything, so just gie’s a brek frae it a’. Please.

  124. Andrew McLean says:

    O/ T
    Wilkie Reneie in Dunfermline, urges yes voters to try the lib dems !
    All you get is bitter and a nasty little rash!

  125. ronnie anderson says:

    And when all else fails Kezia, all those supposed friends desert you,and all the great council (Foulks) & co no longer answer your calls, who are you going to turn to.

    I will leave the last sentance unfinnished,as your Dad isent the only Dugdale to read Wings over Scotland.

  126. Brian Powell says:

    Does EVEL mean if laws are passed to deal with problems in England then these won’t apply in Scotland e.g. the Bedroom Tax?

  127. Legerwood says:

    Ms Dugdale has been quoted in the Sunday Herald today as saying:
    “Two of Labour’s proudest achievements – the NHS and the social security system – were created in the 1940s. I want to talk about how to prepare Scotland for the 2040s. The arguments and solutions of the past interesting as they may be have to be behind us.”

    Is she really saying that the NHS and a social security system have no place in her forward thinking about Scotland? That they are old hat solutions to be consigned to the dustbin of historical curiosities?

    Or am I over analysing what she has been quoted as saying?

  128. HandandShrimp says:

    All you get is bitter and a nasty little rash!

    Aye 🙂

    I’ll squeeze many a thing but not Willie.

  129. sensibledave says:

    Andrew McLean 9:29 am

    I do make similar points sometimes Andrew – and Friday was a prime example. Commenter after commenter had heard what Tommy Sheppard had said, read what was on the SNP web site about EVEL and, as a result, completely misunderstood what the implementation of EVEL meant.

    Time after time commenters shouted their outrage that English MPs would be creating their own laws and spending money, without the rest of the House having a vote on it. Time after time I re stated the actual workings of the legislation and, with the odd exception (they are still appearing above), we got there in the end.

    So, the meat of the EVEL legislation, is actually that English MPs now have the right to veto English Only laws brought by the the House.

    That is the change, and it is a real change. It is valid to have a discussion about the actual change – but not “imagined” changes.

    Regardless of which party one supports, everyone will agree (I hope) that other changes that have been made (Welsh and NI Assemblies, Scottish Parliament, etc) which represent big changes in the way those Home Nations are run.

    The English, quite validly, have made the point that they have been left behind in the devolution of power. England has had, until now, none of it.

    It is a statement of the obvious that the devolution of some powers, dilutes the influence that some had – prior to the devolution.

    I think I am right in saying that the Tory party was against the setting up of a Scottish Parliament and they were arguing that it meant that non Scottish MPs were losing their power to influence law making in Scotland across a whole range of subjects including Health and Education. However, the legislation was passed, Holyrood came to pass, and the asymmetric influence of how some Home Nation legislation is passed continued. The House of Commons, including all MPs voted, by majority to implement those changes – as well as the changes in NI and Wales.

    Has, Tommy Sheppard lost the right to vote on English only laws – no he damned well hasn’t. Has Tommy Sheppard lost the right to force the English Only laws on the English – yes he has.

    I take it that most here disagree with that change. Clearly a majority of the HoC didn’t. The Scottish Parliament came into being as a result of a majority in the HoC – and so has EVEL.

    Did English, Welsh and NI MPs lose the right to vote on important matters in Scotland such as Health, Education (fox hunting?) – yes they did. Has Tommy Sheppard lost that right to force English Only laws on the English, regardless of the will of a majority of those MPs – yes he has.

    Whilst I don’t “know” this, I would suspect that you would be hard pushed to find many English voters, of any political persuasion, that if they understood this change, would be against it.

    So, in summary, EVEL is a change – and there might well be some occasions that the likes of Tommy Sheppard will be frustrated that he can’t force English Only laws on the English.

    Personally, taking all things into account, I am happy with the result in that English MPs, whilst actually not having any “positive” devolved power, at least have the power to veto legislation they believe to be negative to the interests of the majority of English voters.

  130. Robert Peffers says:

    @CameronB Brodie says: 25 October, 2015 at 4:02 am:

    “@ Kezia Dugdale
    So are you thick as shit or simply dishonest?”

    You must realise, CameronB, that Ms Dugdale is highly likely to be classed under both of the above categories.

  131. r esquierdo says:

    Shame on all you wingers attacking a poor lassie who obviously has learning difficulties

  132. sensibledave says:

    Marie Clark 10:02 am

    You wrote “It’s just boring. It usually ends up hijacking the topic, which is really what they want.”

    … if, by “hijacking the topic” – you mean expressing an alternative point of view then you misunderstand the definition of a “troll” Marie. I tell you what would be boring Marie, a situation where someone writes something and 250 people shout “me too” or “hear hear” – regardless of whether the original point was true or had any merit.

    Is shutting down debate what you are in favour of Marie?

  133. heedtracker says:

    Has, Tommy Sheppard lost the right to vote on English only laws – no he damned well hasn’t. Has Tommy Sheppard lost the right to force the English Only laws on the English – yes he has.

    At least half of Scotland want England to vote on English everything, completely and entirely.

    All your “no he damned well hasn’t” Sheppard is a rotter stuff just looks mental in the continuing UKOK blitz Project Fear BBC style, but you know that sensible.

  134. r esquierdo says:

    I forgot to mention in my last post. The waste expulsion pipe

  135. Sandra says:

    I always cringe when Kezia Dugdale opens her mouth as her and truth are not friends however this time she took it to a new level. Yes you can have a difference in political opinions with your Dad and by all means debate them privately at home then agree to disagree but, NEVER EVER belittle him in public. He is your Dad and deserves better than a printed patronising humiliation. All this has done is prove once again that in her eyes, any opinion which differs from hers has got to be wrong therefore deserves a Kezia media waffle regardless of who it hurts. I am sure your Dad is a more honourable man and as a loving father will probably hide his hurt while quietly wishing he could ‘Skelp ur a**e’ for once again showing your immaturity, inability to seek out the truth and public disrespect for your Dad.

  136. sensibledave says:

    Brian Powell 10:10 am

    You wrote “Does EVEL mean if laws are passed to deal with problems in England then these won’t apply in Scotland e.g. the Bedroom Tax?”

    … it depends whether they are “English Only” laws that have been debated and passed by the UK Parliament (including Scottish MPs).

    …(see how patient I am!).

  137. Training Day says:

    Dugdale demonstrated exactly which ‘rational’ sources of information she trusts when she ran to her chums at the fascist-supporting Daily Mail to bleat about ‘cybernat abuse’. Who can forget her sad puppy eyes as she presented her case ever so rationally?

    Patronising airhead.

  138. andy smith says:

    They say an apple doesn’t fall far from the tree,kezia’s family tree must be on top of Ben Nevis!

  139. Bob Mack says:

    Ms Dugdale is just an inexperienced girl out of her depth.
    She speaks the lines given to her without conviction,and tries too hard to follow the Party line.
    The only time she can show real emotion is when she has her erse kicked by Nicolas reply. That is when we see the child emerge, with the grumpy face and gesticulations indicating that the world is not fair.

    I have no doubt she was considered for the position in the hope that her youth and appearance would resonate with the public.

    Labour should have one of their more seasoned liars in charge

  140. Terry says:

    I like the sound of Kezia’s dad- a wise man.

    But for her to actually even mention wings – despite her comments being, ahem, inaccurate would seem to me another indication that labour are cracking. Reports in the Times of uk labour wanting to dump Slab. Possibly a load of Keech but these are interesting times indeed.

  141. Farthnorthdavie says:


    a) “…..didn’t understand the legislation before him”

    Sorry sensibledave there was no legislation, it was a change to the Standing Orders of the House.


  142. Brian Powell says:

    So, after being ‘outed’ as a gung-ho warmonger by Colin Powell, Tony Blair apologies for the Iraq War, sort of.

  143. Vic a Scot in Sweden says:

    That last line wins the Internet for me today

  144. bookie from hell says:

    Scottish Labour
    Coming up after 11am – @kdugdalemsp will be on @SkyMurnaghan setting out her plan for more autonomy for @scottishlabour.

    make or break?

  145. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sharny Dubs says: 25 October, 2015 at 4:27 am:

    “Croompenstein says:

    Kezia I cannae spell.. it’s not cannae Croomp it’s cannot, aye ok Miss, it’s not aye Croomp it’s yes ok ta Miss, it’s not ta Croomp it’s thankyou….aaarggh fuck off…

    Uh!! Uh!! hail from Aberdeen it’s not Uh? it’s fit?

    Wee true story here. I had a skilled Labourer at one time. A real old character. He had been lifted by police one Sunday night for being drunk and incapable. They stuck him in a police cell and brought him before the court on the Monday Morning.

    During his hearing the beak lectured him and asked, “Don’t you know it is also morally wrong to get into such a drunken state?” To which Old Sam, (the skilled Labourer), replied, “Aye!”.

    The beak then said, “There is no such word as, ‘Aye!’, in the English Language.

    At which Old Sam, (an ex-RN sailor), sprang to attention, saluted the beak, and replied, “Aye! Aye! Sir”.

    And was promptly given the option of 30 quid or 30 days at her Majesty’s pleasure.

  146. Brian Powell says:


    However not patient enough to read and understand the questions contained.

  147. JLT says:

    Hi Tam Jardine

    How you doing?

    Yeah! My posting is a bit of an oddity LOL. Almost a love letter to Kezia asking her to understand what it is we that we are all aiming for on Wings.

    I’m staying well away from the wee sideshow on ‘Hate Preachers’. I think we’re losing sight of what the argument is about, and that was Kezia’s perception of Wings as ‘debateable material’.

    Anyway …back to the study books. Reading up on Church Accounts in the reign of Edward VI and Mary I to try and work out when England finally became Episcopalian is like watching paint dry. I’m at the point of ramming needles in my eyes to spare me anymore pain LOL.

  148. heedtracker says:

    … it depends whether they are “English Only” laws that have been debated and passed by the UK Parliament (including Scottish MPs).

    …(see how patient I am!).

    But its not democracy when its just one more English hardcore toryboy like Bercow deciding what Scottish MP’s can and cant vote on.

    On the one hand, we have red tory Dugdale up there bashing away trying to get back in with all kinds of Project Fear whoppers, on t’other we have actual UKOK toryboy world reality completely destroying the vote NO for Scotland as equal nae leading partners of teamGB.

    Vote red tory, don’t touch a blog in Bath, because “it is as relevant a source as the ­Financial Times because it reinforces what he already believes.”

    TeamGB democrats are a crazy lot.

  149. scott says:

    I note that Dugdale has also said she will not speak at the Trident debate,why?? I would have thought that a leader would be the first to give there thoughts on something so important as Trident then again she is not much of a leader just the tail of the dog.

  150. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Peffers
    I didn’t want to appear presumptuous Robert but I do try to be thorough. 😉

  151. Macart says:

    @JLT 9.22am

    Well said.

    @Handandshrimp 9.30am

    Agreed. Neither the media or the establishment parties seem overly willing to let the issue go and I suspect for a very good reason. They are waiting for the other shoe to drop.

    They know the tactics, the strategies they employed to win the referendum and watched in horror as they won and lost within the space of a day. We have Mr Cameron and his graceless speech to thank for that. That was the stone being knocked off the top of the hill.

    A narrow win, an engaged and aware electorate and Westminster arrogance doing what comes naturally. So focussed on their GE and control of commons, getting back to business as usual, neither Conservative or Labour saw what the true effect of their strategies and politicking were until it was far too late.

    When May came around they had a taste of the tide coming back in and didn’t like it one little bit. During the referendum HMG and BT by turns intimidated, pressured, terrified painted the bleakest picture they could of an independent Scotland. Their target wasn’t died in the wool supporters of the union for they are by far the minority in Scotland. Their targets were the soft yes, the independence not yet, the old, the ill informed, the federalists who still held out hope for a home rule resolution.

    Their complete control of the media and strategy of FUD covinced those voter where our argument simply did not. They made a lot of statements and promises to secure that result.

    Now though? Now they have to explain to those people just why better togetherness didn’t happen. Why isn’t there the devo maxiest home rule ever? Why their pensions are under threat? Why austerity and benefit reform is the order of the day? Why 20 amendments were thrown in the bin out of hand presented by an SNP representation not standing on a GE ticket of independence for the first time in their history? There’s a good deal more, but you get the drift.

    Yep, the central govt. and former BT campaign have a very great deal of explaining to do. They simply can’t though, for their strategy and actions were indefensible. So instead of doing that the strategy appears to be to launch into project fear and smear 2.

    They intend to provoke a rash rash and ill prepared move. Perhaps even prompt a referendum whilst the result is too close to call in the hopes of scraping an even narrower victory, buy a few more years as it were. It won’t work and nothing is going to prevent that other shoe from finally dropping and all they are doing with their continuance of project fear is ensuring that when that tide finally comes in, it will reach a very high water mark indeed.

    You can’t treat an electorate, treat people the way they have and not expect something to finally give. In this case I suspect their hold over the public and an end to a sham of a political construct.

  152. Turnip_ghost says:

    That’s quite something to presume about her dad. Perhaps he actually read the articles and changed his mind because he is an intelligent and thoughtful man and not some sheep as she appears to think.

    This is why the referendum “burns on”. Because she, and other unionists, think anyone who doesn’t believe them must be idiots.

  153. @Robert Peffers

    I wonder what Mr Bercow would say “The ayes have it the ayes have it.”

  154. Lollysmum says:

    Robert Louis & Petra-excellent posts

    Please folks-stop talking about Kezia as if she’s a wee girl though she might behave like it at times. She isn’t naive at all. She’s 34 & has been an MSP since 2011 so she can’t blame it on inexperience. Like any politician she finds a position on an issue & runs with it-usually SNP Baaad but there you go. They do say empty vessels make the most noise & she just proves the point.

    The fact that she has little understanding of human nature is blindingly obvious as she merrily ploughs on making idiotic statements that the voters WILL lap up. Err nope! She clearly fails to look at the implications of her proposed statements & the possible reactions of voters.Never does she consider that the response is going to be laughter & that she is the joke but I’m afraid that’s exactly what she is.

    Two weeks ago she said she didn’t campaign for Better Together during the referendum campaign. No of course not Kez yet within 2 hours of that statement, there’s 5 photos circulating on Twitter all with her shown campaigning as part of Better Together. That isn’t naivety that is sheer stupidity & use of a distinct Labour practice to treat the voters as numpties & they’ll just lap it up.

    The voters just aren’t listening to Kezia as she so rightly said herself. They’ve shown how weak unionist arguments are by moving into the Lib/Lab/Con Project Smear phase. Guess what, that isn’t likely to work either.

    Roll on May 2016 😉 Think they may well have to sit back & take it on the chin 🙂

  155. caz-m says:

    The English Labour Party will dump Scottish Labour like a ton of bricks because they realise they have no further use for them, they are a spent force.

    It’s a bit like the way the English Establishment will dump Scotland once the Oil & Gas industry dries up and they build a new home in Wales for their Nuclear subs and weapons.

    Wake up Scotland, we are being used and abused by our English Masters.

  156. Xaracen says:

    “So, the meat of the EVEL legislation, is actually that English MPs now have the right to veto English Only laws brought by the the House.”

    And one very clear complaint is that only English MPs get such a veto. None of the MPs of other parts of the UK get such a veto for their areas. And a major corollary is that no MP from outside England can now sensibly hope to become PM or Chancellor, or other major Office of State, so in effect only English MPs can take the top Offices.

    Once again English MPs are special.

  157. Fergus Green says:

    Reluctant to post this but there has been too much feeding of a troll on this and other recent threads.

    Ignore it and it will go away. The only response is no response.

    Will you people never learn?

  158. Tam Jardine says:


    Guid thanks. I’m painting doors which I have to say is like reading up on Church Accounts in the reign of Edward VI and Mary I

  159. Craig says:

    You know, I really feel for Keiza’s dad, he must be proud in one way that she is playing her part in politics and is leader of Slab but must be cringing every time Keiza makes a wild allegation about something.

    He publicily told her on twitter to “Check her facts before speaking”.

    Kezia clearly hasn’t taken that message on board and how he must feel when seeing his daughter being pubicly humilated by WOS, The Wee Ginger Dug when the truth behind her “statements” proved to be false and to be shown up for the silly wee lassie that she is.

  160. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible Dave,
    Again you refuse to see the wood for the trees, I think you should change yout tag to simplistic Dave! 270 MPs voted against this device, ask yourself why! But you stick on one MPs comments again why,? You say you like discourse but sticking you fingers in your ears and going la la la, is not dialectic, it’s just pig ignorance!

  161. sensibledave says:

    heedtracker 10:40 am

    You wrote: “But its not democracy when its just one more English hardcore toryboy like Bercow deciding what Scottish MP’s can and cant vote on.

    … you still haven’t “got it” have you Heedy.


    Heedy, do try and understand this. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you ask someone you trust – that knows about these things.

    (In response to this comment, I hereby predict that you will completely ignore what I have just written – and respond with a completely irrelevant diatribe involving the words “toryboy, UKOK, Britnat, etc – in some random order and completely off topic – don’t you dare let me down Heedy by actually arguing the point under discussion!)

  162. msean says:

    Got to say,every time I hear or see the phrase ‘one nation’ I think of Tories. Repeating Tory phrases worked great for other recent Labour leaders,so keep up the good work 🙂

  163. Jack Murphy says:

    OT.’March For Independence—All Under One Banner’
    March through Glasgow streets yesterday in top Archived video.
    Other Archived clips from yesterday are below. 🙂

  164. heedtracker says:

    … you still haven’t “got it” have you Heedy.


    Heedy, do try and understand this. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you ask someone you trust – that knows about these things.

    So why EVEL sensible?

    So why was EVEL hidden from Project Fear by BBC etc?

  165. sensibledave says:

    Andrew McLean 11:17 am

    You Wrote “270 MPs voted against this device, ask yourself why!”

    Because they disagreed with it I assume!

    I honestly do not understand your point. I have accepted that the veto constitutes a change. I have accepted that if none Scottish MPs wanted to foist an “English Only” law on the English – and the majority of Enlish MPs dont want it – then they will veto it – and that that is a change.

    For the sake of argument, and the subject matter is irrelevant, it will mean, for instance, that if the HoC wants to introduce new laws regarding say, fox hunting, that only affect the English, then English MPs will have the right to veto the legislation – if a majority of English MPs don’t want it.

    If there is some law that you, presumably as a Scot, think your Scottish MPs should be able to force the English to accept, against the will of the majority of English MPs, then give me an example, then maybe we can discuss things sensibly.

  166. Chic McGregor says:

    @Andrew McLean

    “Wilkie Reneie in Dunfermline, urges yes voters to try the lib dems !”

    We have – they’re guilty.

  167. sensibledave says:

    Heedy 11.28

    You wrote “So why EVEL sensible?”

    I will try and be patient with you Heedy, – its because, as was stated in the Manifesto of the Conservative Party in the run up to the General Election, there is/was a need to offer the English some sort of “devolution” of power – albeit only “negative” power in response to all of the devolution of powers enjoyed by the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. EVEL was promised in the Manifesto – in the same way as the SNP Manifesto said they would fight EVEL.

  168. Big Jock says:

    Kezia,this might help you. Why not stop talking about change and instead actually change. It would start with a Scottish Labour debate and members vote on embracing Scottish independence. Who knows your members might actually vote for something you oppose. Or is it your UK masters who oppose it?

  169. Valerie says:


    Tank girl not supporting her govt on tax credits.

    Says it all about these pig fkers. They really make me so sick with their attacks.

    Let’s hope the Lord’s find a spine.

  170. Chic McGregor says:

    @~Bob Peffers
    “You must realise, CameronB, that Ms Dugdale is highly likely to be classed under both of the above categories.”

    Reminds me of the old adage:

    ‘You can be one or two of the following but not all three.

    Intelligent, honest or a Labour politician.’

  171. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible Dave
    Do you not understand the phrase wood from the trees? I will suppose you are English, so may lack the insite on Scottish unionist thinking, but let me explain they want, demand absolute equality within the union, your chaps have just given us separatists another string for our bow, you decry the unfairness as you see it, I am just glad the conservatives are as blind as you!

  172. heedtracker says:

    I asked nice Mr Cameron, pig fancier, still my Prime Minister sensibledave and he said

    “A vote for No means real change and we have spelled that change out in practical terms, with a plan and a process.

    If we get a No vote on Thursday, that will trigger a major, unprecedented programme of devolution with additional powers for the Scottish Parliament.

    Major new powers over tax, spending and welfare services.

    We have agreed a timetable for that stronger Scottish Parliament: a time-table to bring in the new powers that will go ahead if there is a No vote…a White Paper by November, put into draft legislation by January.

    This is a timetable that is now agreed by all the main political parties and set in stone and I am prepared to work with all the main parties to deliver this during 2015.”

    That was all ofcourse before we vote NO and all we have to show for it over a year later is, tadah! EVEL.

    I asked Prof Adam Tomkins, the greatest ever UKOKist in the world of teamGB, co designer? of The Vow what Pig Fancier Cammers said would be really ace and Prof T says

    “Moreover, well before 2021 the new tax and welfare powers agreed by the Smith Commission and currently being legislated for in the Scotland Bill will be fully in force. Mr Swinney made a complete hash of the first tax devolved to him (stamp duty) and, when he takes charge of income tax in Scotland, which he soon will, his job will get a whole lot harder. Especially when he has a Cabinet Secretary for Welfare urging him radically to increase spending on social security provision in Scotland.

    All bubbles burst. All tides recede. Eventually.”

    Vote NO for The Vow, and toryboys will give you one, for the sole purpose of making your lives harder, bringing down SNP, destroy Scottish independence.

    Its not exactly what you unionists said it was for sensible. And ofcourse EVEL is nothing to worry about either.

    Do you see now sensibledave, you’re just one more unionist sneaky shit. Could all work though. We’ll know pretty much within the awful Prof T’s now til 2020 time frame.

    If it goes to your UKOK cunning plan, a lot of people be even worse off in Scotland. That’s probably not what people voted NO for and ofcourse SLab, BBC, you, will all blame Nic Sturgeon.

    Rule Britnattia sensible. Hope oil prices stay low too!

  173. BIl McLean says:

    Let’s try to refrain from being too harsh on Kezia – as many have pointed out she has family – whether SNP or not!
    I often wonder if her irrational comments are born from being rejected by the SNP prior to becoming a Foulkes ally?

  174. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    sensibledave at 10.14

    I assume you believe then that Scots MPs should have a veto on any matter that affects Scotland?

    Because they don’t and there is no intention to give them that so EVEL is an attack on the union.
    We can all see that and all of Scotland perceives that to be the case.
    Why can’t you?

    Actually the choice of “sensibledave” as your chosen identity sounds like a cartoon character or sarcasm. Or perhaps you are on here to allow us entertainment at the expense of unionist positions.

  175. heedtracker says:

    I will try and be patient with you Heedy, – its because, as was stated in the Manifesto of the Conservative Party in the run up to the General Election, there is/was a need to offer the English some sort of “devolution” of power – albeit only “negative” power in response to all of the devolution of powers enjoyed by the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. EVEL was promised in the Manifesto – in the same way as the SNP Manifesto said they would fight EVEL.

    So what on earth is “devolution” of power – albeit only “negative” power?

    Negative power? oh sensible, the UKOK fraud on Scotland trundles along, but for how much longer.

    Prof Tomkins says that Smith Commision devo power is designed to cause as much damage as possible to Swinney and bring down the SNP by 2020.

    Thoughts sensibledave? and none of this “negative power” jibber jabber.

    Negative power! What next from the crew that brought us Crash Gordon and

    What the great UKOK fraud machine dumped in their pants, when they saw one poll that said Scots are maybe, nearly, possibly Scot free from the grip of, well dudes like you sensible.

  176. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 25 October, 2015 at 8:36 am:

    “Whilst I have no truck with Ms Dugdale’s politics, I do understand her point – and you only have to look at the threads for Friday here on Wings to see an example of it.”

    sensibledave, You are either a paid for troll, incredibly stupid or incredibly obtuse. (My own opinion, and I emphasise my own opinion, is you are all three).

    If you seriously do not understand the actual United Kingdom Government’s position in regard to the actual legal standing of the terms, “United Kingdom”, and how it is applied to its standing i theses matters you are indeed all three categories as stated above.

    Here, (without the incredibly poorly applied English language uneducated people such as yourself apply to the terms), are the legal definitions.

    Kingdom = The realm of a monarch.
    Country = The territory of a nation.
    Britain = The whole of the British Isles.
    Great Britain = The greatest, (largest), island of Britain.
    United = Joined as one.

    So let us get a few terms correct, shall we?

    “The United Kingdom” is the united realm of the monarch of all parts of that monarch’s realm. Thus it actually includes more than the former independent Kingdom, (and country), of Scotland and the former, three country, Kingdom of England. It includes the two Channel Island Bailiwicks and the Isle of Man which are part of the realm but are independent of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    “Her Majesty’s United Kingdom Parliament” is composed of the only two equally sovereign Kingdoms that existed in 1706/7. i.e. the single country Kingdom of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England.

    Ergo – There is a difference between the composition of, “The United Kingdom”, (the realm), and, “The Parliament of The United Kingdom”, which does not include the independent Channel Island Bailiwicks and the Isle of Man.

    Thus Her Majesty’s Parliament of the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two formerly equally sovereign kingdoms and if either partner in a bipartite union leaves the a union can no longer exist.

    However, as just like the Bailiwicks and Man, the two equally sovereign Kingdoms remain part of Her Majesty’s realm, (her United Kingdom). That is until or unless any other part of Her Realm declares itself a Republic as per The Republic of Ireland.

    So the new situation at Westminster is not only bogus but illegal. In fact due to the numbers involved the COUNTRY of England has long acted as if it were the United Kingdom. There are 355 English, 59 Scottish, 40 Welsh and 18 N.Irish constituencies. Yet, because all but Scotland are under English law, the Parliament of Westminster legislates by English Law with little additions to accommodate Scottish Legal differences.

    In effect the Parliament has long operated as the de facto Parliament of England, legislating by English law, financing itself as The United Kingdom and making Block Grants to the devolved parliaments. It legislated to split the United Kingdom up along the lines of country instead of by kingdom and thus has broken the terms of the legal foundations of the actual, “Treaty of Union”.

    I’ll spell that out for you Dave. The Treaty of Union has only two equally sovereign signatory Kingdoms as partners but the United Kingdom Parliament has split the UK up as four countries but retained for itself the position as the United Kingdom Parliament. That makes it the de facto Parliament of the country of England.

    It has now debarred the democratically elected, equally sovereign members from Scottish constituencies from voting upon what it decides to be Country of England Matters.

    No international court is going to uphold such illegal and undemocratic actions when the matter inevitably ends in the international courts. I’ll give you a precedent.

    When the international courts were asked to decide who had jurisdiction over the crime of the Lockerbie Bombing the claimants were the USA, The UK and Scotland.

    The decision was that, as the crime was committed in Scotland, then only Scottish courts had the authority to try the accused.

    That means the International authority recognises that Scottish law not only exists but must be recognised as an independent jurisdiction.

    Now, Dave. Until you know the differences between the terms, Kingdom, Country, Britain, Great Britain and The Parliament of the United Kingdom you are NOT
    in a position to debate, argue or pontificate to, or with, those of us who do understand, not only the terms, but their legal implications.

  177. heedtracker says:

    Sensibledave instead of trying to waffle it away with your “negative powers” hoohaa, maybe this Scotland botherer has the right attitude to EVEL. As in don’t even mention it, ever.

    Rancid The Graun’s really been shown up to be just another bunch of Britnat tory bullshitters by Scottish democracy, which is nice.

  178. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I like this quote from the Scotsman’s interview/dissection:

    “Even so, at times, she reminds me of a deer out in the open at the height of the hunting season.”

    Or the same deer standing in the middle of the road, staring, bemusedly, as the juggernaut hurtles towards it.

  179. Jock Scot says:

    Since we like Jeff Dugdale at YEW CHOOB and even Ninja Penguin agrees,Kez’s intial Choobing for becoming SLAB leader was maybe a tad too ‘considerate’.

  180. tartanarse says:

    Macart at 10.38

    You are absolutely spot on. I like to explain it in simpler terms.

    BT used all of their ammo in ref 1 and that ammo was blank in the first place.

  181. jcd says:

    Robert Louis 24th 11.24pm

    Way way too late for this now but absolutely brilliant post!

  182. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers 12:32 pm

    You wrote “sensibledave, You are either a paid for troll, incredibly stupid or incredibly obtuse. (My own opinion, and I emphasise my own opinion, is you are all three).”

    So let’s start with that paragraph. In order to to debate with someone, one tries to assess their knowledge, wisdom and, most importantly their judgement in forming opinions. You have given my your opinion and I, uniquely, and immediately, in a position to absolutely know how good your judgement and opinion is.

    You told me that you think I am a “troll”. I know I am not. You told me you think I am incredibly stupid. Whilst not claiming to be Einstein or anything, I know I am not stupid or obtuse.

    … so as we are sharing Robert, in my own opinion, you are a patronising, pompous pedant that refuses to accept that there could possibly be any point of view that might have any validity if it is different to yours.

    What you seem totally incapable of understanding is that things can change. For instance, the UK Parliament voted to change hundreds of years of history by voting to set up a Scottish Parliament.

    Many Members of the UK Parliament voted to give up their right to vote on loads of huge issues – because they wanted to create a situation where the Scots could control them themselves without input from anyone not representing a Scottish constituency in Holyrood. Do you agree?

    On Thursday, Members of the UK Parliament, voted to change Standing Orders to allow one variation to how Laws will not be made in England. Do you agree?

    It would appear that this change is seen by some here as some dreadful tragedy that will inevitably lead to the speedy end of the Union. Others, from the same political persuasion oddly, see it as evidence that the English will oppress the Scots for evermore. I can’t argue against both those points of view. Choose which one is yours and we can have a discussion.

    To be honest, I haven’t read you whole piece, but I recognise the gist from previous lectures by you.

    I get the impression that, in your opinion, any changes that give more powers to Scottish Political representatives is a good thing – whilst any changes that give more power to English political representatives is simply awful, illegal, a denial of history, racist – or something, the list appears endless.

    On Friday, we had to deal with all of the misinformation about who could vote on English only laws. Eventually, after hundreds of comments, most commenters got the correct information and we were left with the only real change, of any import, being the right to veto English Only laws.

    I understand you don’t agree with this – and I understand that others here might not agree with the changes. But what you can’t do Robert is argue that the change can’t or hasn’t happened – it has! So somewhere, all your history and logic has a fatal flaw.

    In order to bring this subject from the ethereal and esoteric, into reality, can someone give me an example of a law, over the last 10 years say, that you think should have been brought as an “English only” law that the UK Parliament would have wanted implemented – but English MPs, under this new status, might have vetoed?

  183. Ruby says:

    RE Boycotting the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ aka UniTrolls

    I think people should be free to respond in any way they like to the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ If people want to use the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ as a kinda stooge (you know the not amusing/interesting part of a comedy duo) then that is fair enough.

    If people want to relieve stress by flame baiting with these ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ then that too is fair enough. I must admit I do get a kick out of winding up the fockers!

    Basically what I’m saying is people should do what they want. If you don’t want to read the mince posted by the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ just scroll past. I would recommend a Apple Magic Mouse. One little flick of the pinkie on the Magic Mouse and all the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ will disappear under the nav bar quicker than you can say fock off UniTroll.

  184. Ken Mair says:

    As someone who reads everything from all sources, speaks face to face with people and attends the events being written about , my knowledge is refined by the quality of information.
    The newspapers are mostly not seeking the facts.
    I find this site on the other hand,reflects the reality I experience and those who dismiss it are stacking up a concatenation of prejudiced illusions that would put Fort George to shame.
    Sooner or later their delusion must come tumbling down.

    The FT show their true colours often.
    Their picture of the SNP conference was editied to show “RONG” behind Nicola. Impartial ?

  185. heedtracker says:

    @ sensibledave still tub thumping for teamGB.

    What do we want?

    Negative powers!

    When do we want them?

    Never, soon, last week, next week, in a parallel universe governed by sensibledave, you big dope sensible.

  186. Neil Anderson says:

    Kezia will trust the FT because it “reinforces what she already believes” – capitalism.
    Today she’s talking about Labour in Scotland setting it’s own policy for Scotland (against much oppostion from WM)
    Strange since she’s been caliming they were ‘not a branch office’ since … well …. forever.

  187. Chic McGregor says:

    TBF to the FT, during the indy campaign it was far more accurate on its assessment of the Scottish economy and the impact of indy than the general media. But then the FT’s USP, indeed OSP, is its accuracy.

  188. Baldeagle58 says:

    This is a bit O/T, but I notice that Kezia will be on the Question Time panel on Thursday of this week.
    Will she be told by Mr Dimbleby that ‘SNP Baaaaddddd’ is not a suitable answer to audience questions?

  189. Malky says:

    Can KD be any more insulting to her own father and the tens of thousands of people who visit this page? Her implied definition of ‘rational’ is lost on me, but – and I need to be honest here – I’m not so sure she allows herself the luxury of in-depth analysis of very much at all.

  190. Stevie says:

    It occurs to me that it is a sign of how desperate and dumb the Dug actually is – citing a popular online information source to attack it in an interview from the leader of SLAB (on the slab) is laughably pathetic as are the Brits in Scotland in general.

  191. CyBOS says:

    Please leave poor Kezia alone while she works on her new project: “To make Scottish Labour anonymous.”

    I think that’s what she said!

    Thank you kindly.

  192. edward robinson says:

    When you need more money Stu,just let us know; the fundraisers really do say it all.

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