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The Great Coincidence

Posted on March 17, 2019 by

Several media outlets today relate a story from BBC Scotland’s fascinating three-part documentary of the indyref, revealing that secret UK government polling in the first week of September 2014 gave Yes a lead even bigger than the famous 51-49 one published by the Sunday Times on the 7th.

And naturally we couldn’t help wondering what might have caused it.

Because polling had been remarkably flat through almost the entire campaign. Here, for example, are YouGov’s indyref polls for the year preceding September 2014:

And nothing all that dramatic happened politically after that point which would explain the sudden turnaround. Even Alex Salmond’s universally-agreed victory in the second TV debate against Alistair Darling only caused a short temporary blip in the Yes vote which had reverted by the time of the two polls which put Yes in front:

But outside of televised politics, there was ONE thing.

The Wee Blue Book was launched online on the 11th of August, and the first tranche of 300,000 print editions hit streets all over Scotland in the first week of September. And every single polling company shows noticeable shifts in the polling trajectory at exactly those two points.

There’ll never be any way of knowing for sure whether those changes were causation or mere correlation, of course. But the synchronicity is quite uncanny.

Just a week before the launch of the WBB, a YouGov poll for the Sun reported a No lead of 20 points. The first three polls after the WBB came out (and before the second Salmond-Darling debate) cut that to an average of just 8.7 points.

The first five polls after the print edition started reaching voters (carefully targeted as far as humanly possible at undecideds, the sort of people who’d never have dreamed of visiting Wings Over Scotland to download the digital edition) slashed that No lead to an average of just 3 points, including the first public poll to show Yes in front.

And we now know that including the UK government’s secret poll, the average a few days into September was just 1.8 points.

In fact, of the 20 (public) polls before the release of the Wee Blue Book, TWELVE gave No a double-digit lead, including margins of 20, 19, 18 and 17 points.

Of the 20 published polls after the WBB, only ONE (which was from before the print edition went out) reached double figures, and only three were higher than 6 points.

Something certainly put the Unionists into a blind panic where nothing else had notably shifted the direction of polls in two years. If it was the WBB, it’ll never be acknowledged by history, because the media despise Wings with all their hearts and politicians don’t like to admit that events were influenced by things they didn’t control.

So we’ll have to leave you to form your own views on what it might have been.

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    1. 17 03 19 11:56

      The Great Coincidence | speymouth

    841 to “The Great Coincidence”

    1. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      That’s why you need to have a major role in infyref2.

    2. Truth says:

      Are there plans afoot for an updated reprint?

    3. John Lowe says:

      Explains exactly why they tried to jail you and Al the abuse and smears against you.

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Are there plans afoot for an updated reprint?”

      Yes, of course there are. We’ve made it clear in every fundraiser since 2015 that we plan to print a million copies of WBB2 for the next indyref.

    5. jimnarlene says:

      WBB2 with plenty of indyposterboy graphics combined with Wings forensic ability to provide evidence, should be a winning publication.

    6. Fireproofjim says:

      Count me in for the next WBB crowdfunder, it was by far the best literature during the Yes campaign.
      The SNP SHOULD TAKE NOTE.

    7. Rev, do we understand why we went from +50% to 45% in the actual referendum?

    8. Heaver says:

      I hope YES2 is wargaming the dirty tricks NO will employ.

    9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Rev, do we understand why we went from +50% to 45% in the actual referendum?”

      The entirely predictable last-minute loss of nerve that affects most plebiscites on major change, combined with the Vow giving some soft Yeses an excuse to bottle it. I knew we had to be at 55% on referendum day to have a chance, which is why I was miserable all day, long before any results came in.

    10. robertknight says:

      This is the very reason Westminster will never, under any circumstances, agree to IndyRef2.

      Furthermore, the Spanish Government’s treatment of Catalonia has shown the British Government exactly how to deal with any future internal threat to the unity of State via unauthorised referenda.

      There needs to be a Plan B.

    11. The Man in the Jar says:

      How about a large print edition that can be targeted at older voters. “Ah canny read yon wee print” is an easy cop-out for the reluctant.

    12. montfleury says:

      I remember getting the WBB as a canvasser and it suddenly felt like we had ammunition. Had a copy under my clipboard for every contact in the last three weeks.

      Tried to give a copy to my bin men but they already had it.

      I only wish we’d got it in July. The Yes Scotland material was pretty feeble.

    13. galamcennalath says:

      “There’ll never be any way of knowing for sure whether those changes were causation or mere correlation “

      Indeed, but best play safe and go for at least a million next time!

      >4 million potential voters
      ~2.5 million households
      ~2 million 2014 NO voters

    14. winifred mccartney says:

      No hesitation in my mind that the WBB did it – I know some people who were astounded by its contents and changed their mind because of it.

      Rev Stu and Wings is hated because it tells the truth something the MSM and the BBC are incapable of doing. Even with the present yes/no indyref programmes they could not help themselves and edited out the criticism of one of their main journalists who is still airing his half truths and downright lies to this day.

      We will win indy2 because this is a grassroots campaign and we will never again believe tory or labour politicians (I don’t need to add liedems, that’s a given) all of them only have party and self interest on their minds.

    15. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I only wish we’d got it in July. The Yes Scotland material was pretty feeble.”

      We wanted to get it out in the last two weeks of August, because that’s the time most people who aren’t politics nerds actually start paying attention and making up their minds. Printing took a bit longer than scheduled, but we’ll be ready for that next time.

    16. galamcennalath says:

      The Tree of Liberty says:

      do we understand why we went from +50% to 45% in the actual referendum?

      Those polls triggered a plan which had been in place for months. I was informed about its existence early in 2014. If things got close, Cameron planned to offer more powers.

      From the Monday after the polls all the dubious and renegeable offers of DevoSuperMax appeared with a vengeance, Gordon ‘Federal’ Brown was deployed. The media swung into action. The Vow.

      This is a bit like the WBB in that it’s impossible to prove cause and effect. IMO, WBB swung it one way, the ‘DevoMax Plan’ pushed it back.

    17. Capella says:

      The WBB certainly had an impact. Just getting some facts out there makes an impact. The other media were solidly anti-independence and TV debates were hopeless for getting information across with their in-built 3 Unionists (plus the presenter) v 1 Independista bias.

      Currently, the SNP and Independence supporters are kept out of any BBC radio debate I come across. It is becoming ridiculous.

      I’m certaiinly up for contributng to a fundraiser for 1m WBBs.

    18. George Trist says:

      Get a crowdfund going for Wee Blue Book 2 to go through every door in Scotland, I’ll donate as I’m sure 1000s of others would.

    19. David McFeeters says:

      There’s enough of a coincidence that I’d suggest you don’t go driving around quiet Scottish moors on your own at anytime!!

    20. TheItalianJob says:

      I’ll contribute to an updated WBB. I know for sure it contributed to nearly getting Yes over the line but as galamcennalath says above, the full blown VOW, more promises of powers to the Scots Parliament and Broon being deployed in the last few weeks swung it the other way with the ditheres imo.

      A well, next time it’ll be much different and hence the fear in Westminster and the Establishment stating from various quarters they will not approve a request from the Scots Government for Indyref2 .

      But as many posters have being saying the Scots Government has been given a mandate by the Scottish electorate to hold an Indyref2 and this has been approved by Holyrood MSP’s. So Indyref2 cannot be prevented by Westminster or its Parliament.

    21. Ann Rayner says:

      As an oldie myself,I agree with Man in a Jar about larger print to appeal to older voters who were largely for NO last time. However, to avoid too much expense, I would suggest using that in a shorter version giving the main points of the argument and concentrating on things like pensions and currency, which were seen as problems last time.
      We also need to remind people of the kind of country we want to be and distance ourselves from the greed, austerity, zenophobia and the cruelty to the sick, disabled, homeless and unemployed that comes from Westminster.

    22. louis.b.argyll says:

      The pen is indeed mightier than the cloak and dagger.

    23. Katag says:

      Ready to contribute to a fundraiser for this. Just sing out when you need the money.

    24. McBoxheid says:

      The Man in the Jar says:
      17 March, 2019 at 11:42 am

      How about a large print edition that can be targeted at older voters. “Ah canny read yon wee print” is an easy cop-out for the reluctant.
      ———————————-

      A very good idea, but actually, that is a genuine reason for not reading something. Unfortunately arms don’t grow with age and not everyone likes to admits their sight is failing. Additionally, not everyone can afford the correct strength reading glasses/bifocals/varifocals.

      Before I got the right strength varifocals, it was really quite a bother to enjoy my hobby, birding and photography. Continually having to change glasses almost put me off altogether. I know, I know, there are lot worse things that having to change specs, but I suffered a stroke and my left side is very weak, even after 27 years. My left had is ok for holding things, just, but there is no fine control whatsoever.
      My wife insisted, I think mainly for her own sanity, that I get the right glasses for my needs.

      Fortunately we managed to afford them, she still works, but they are dear. Not everyone is able to manage the expense. So don’t put people down for poor eyesight, there is often something more to it than not being bothered. No one likes to admit they are age is catching up with them, or can’t afford something.

    25. dom says:

      Just say the word Rev and I for one will be only to willing to contribute to any crowd funding that you are organising.

    26. McBoxheid says:

      Sorry, I made a correction to the last sentence and left stuff I should have deleted. For “No one likes to admit they are age is catching up with them, or can’t afford something”, read No one likes to admit age is catching up with them, or can’t afford something.

    27. Cactus says:

      Wee Groovy Cool Book 2019…

    28. Hamish100 says:

      Yip the WBB was a fantastic asset to the Independence campaign. Leave on the train, bus, put through doors. Read at leisure. It all had an impact.

      The arguments of the unionists are weaker. Vote for Independecne you will be removed from the EU!! The Vow!
      The lies over austerity, The Mother of Parliaments shown at itsbest. The weakness of Corbyn and labour. Ireland has more clout than England with the EU behind it.

      We have more of an opportunity this time.

    29. HandandShrimp says:

      There was a real buzz in those last three weeks and I dished out a fair few WBB from our Yesshop. People asked for them rather than having to push them on the street like religious tract. We ran out and had source another box.

      I think the latest revelations on polls show just how close we came. No wonder Cameron et al were crapping themselves and flying the sa!tire from No 10 along with wild vows of the most devolved parliament ever. Those that believed and trusted Cameron and “Lord” Darling were rooked good and proper.

    30. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’m getting excited!

      let’s get started.

    31. scunner says:

      Footsoldier, for the unwary shouldn’t you have given a bit more info regarding those links?

      Sure it shows mr manky shirt is readying up for a 2nd Indyref campaign but long time alert readers would know this.

      A brief synopsis/warning would have been appreciated… just saying…

    32. Ken Clark says:

      Fascinating article.

      I can only speak from personal experience, but I know of three definite Yeses resulting from WBBs I passed on and a number of prospective No voters who admitted it gave them serious food for thought.

      I always passed them on with the understanding that I respected whichever view the person currently held, but such an important matter could only be decided on with as balanced an input of information as possible.

      The WBB delivered that in spades, countering superbly all of Project Fear’s output.

      As the much missed Margot MacDonald stated on Calton Hill during the rally there, all we need do is change one person’s mind from No to Yes to achieve independence.

      Bizarrely, the British state, in attempting to squeeze ever tighter it’s dead handed grip on us, is doing much of that work for us.

      Roll on the next independence referendum. We are so close.

    33. HYUFD says:

      RobertKnight Brexit or No Brexit the UK Government could go one of two ways. It could take the route of the Canadian government who granted Quebec a second independence referendum which was narrowly defeated by just 51% to 49% in 1995 after the promise of more powers for the Quebec Government.

    34. HYUFD says:

      Or it could go down the route of the Spanish Government which sent in the Civil Guard to prevent the Catalan Government holding an unofficial independence referendum and arrested Catalan nationalist leaders

    35. Vronsky says:

      I think you should refrain from publishing another WBB. Mhairi Hunter, Doug Daniel and a few other eminent members of the SNP would be awfully unhappy. Because you use Bad Words. And say stuff. And that is not what polite people do.

    36. Scott says:

      When Indy2 comes along I will donate to it but Rev you must watch your back because the state is very unforgiving about someone who goes against them,remember this.

      Willie MacRae Murder

    37. jfngw says:

      Will the next WBB have a section on all the lies/promises that were made in 2014 and not kept. Because WM in collaboration with the media (particularly the BBC) will do pretty much the same again, just different lies this time (some may even be the same lies to be honest).

      DUP may be getting more money to soothe their Brexit concerns, surely there can’t be many unheated barns left in NI.

    38. Geordie says:

      Stu, I’d urge you to reinforce the next WBB with a hard-hitting billboard campaign, to which I’d willingly donate. The current anti-Brexit billboards quoting various Leave buffoons has set a great precedent.

    39. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      Are you inferring that you expect England to invade Scotland, good luck with that one then. In your heart I fear you would like to do the same with Ireland, those jumped up Paddy’s is it?

    40. ScotsRenewables says:

      Another vote for a much bigger billboard campaign this time.

    41. jfngw says:

      @Geordie

      I suspect it would be near impossible to get the billboard space from these companies, they are pretty much Tory supporters. The Tories seem to have them rapped up during an election. The only ones available may be the small mobile ones owned in Scotland.

      If I remember Wings did have an advert somewhere a while back, but that was quickly removed.

    42. msean says:

      The introduction of vows and other last minute stuff like the extensive use of state tv for ex Prime Ministers’ unquestioned offers,the Wee Blue Book induced the panic in Unionists.

      Always wondered how much that tv time was worth,certainly would have counted as enough overspend to nullify the result.

    43. HandandShrimp says:

      HYUD

      Don’t think the UK government could go down the Spanish route. Different laws and we don’t have Franco’s fascist paramilitary leftovers to implement such a thing even if they were stupid enough to contemplate such a move. Anyway it has hardly put the flames out in Catalonia.

    44. galamcennalath says:

      msean says:

      tv time … counted as … overspend

      I have always felt that way. WoS is biased and partisan, so it registers as a campaigning organisation. But how do blatantly biased media outlets manage to take their stance without having to register? As for the broadcast media … most of it should have been registered as pro Union campaigning. It didn’t, it wasn’t required to. Why? I never understood that.

    45. HYUFD says:

      Jfngw Scotland and England are both part of the UK, it would be the UK Government making the decision, the Republic of Ireland is not now part of the UK

    46. HYUFD says:

      I see even the Irish Foreign Minister is not happy with Sinn Fein at the moment
      https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1107193246088904704?s=20

    47. HYUFD says:

      HandandShrimp Probably not the present party leaderships no but if a Farage type character got into power at Westminster anything could happen

    48. Confused says:

      denis healey
      – never offer a referendum unless you know the result

      our indyref was so easily agreed to because of the massive lead for NO

      the first attempt to stop us will be to prevent indyref2
      – which is why calling one sooner rather than later in to be preferred
      – 6 months after brexit for full economic impact

      the hard evidence now comes in for what many suspected
      – hence the late panic by the NO campaign

      also, the phenomenon of “polling which gives the wrong answer not being made public”
      – thats one you need to remember

      WBB2 I am sure will be kick-fucking-ass
      – but it should be multimedia and multiformat
      – BIG BLUE BOOK
      – GRAPHIC NOVEL FORMAT BLUE BOOK
      – an animated cartoon
      harnessing the power of the infographic is what is required
      cannot wait!

    49. Petra says:

      @ George Trist says at 11:58 am …. ”Get a crowdfund going for Wee Blue Book 2 to go through every door in Scotland, I’ll donate as I’m sure 1000s of others would.”

      This could be our last chance Stu. What about aiming to get the WBB out to EVERY household in Scotland?

      http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/household-estimates/2017/house-est-17-publication.pdf

    50. Leeboy says:

      I feel we need a much larger bill board campaign. Posterboys material would be great for people to see every day, get it into people’s heads. I recon we should also crowd fund for this.

    51. galamcennalath says:

      CAMPAIGN SPENDING

      Here’s a suggestion for the entire YES community for IndyRef2 campaigning.

      State collectively that none of the campaign groups will accept money (above small anonymous donations) from outside Scotland. Then challenge the NO groups to do the same.

      NO campaigning will rely on big spends on advertising and most of it will come from folks who don’t even have a vote here. SiU for instance is heavily funded by ‘foreigners’.

      If the NO groups agree to keep campaign financing within Scotland then it levels the playing field. If they disagree then throughout the campaign they can be challenged by being unfairly financed from outside Scotland by ‘foreign’ vested interests.

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      Own blow trumpet

      too right quite!

    53. OT David Macfeeters did you used to live in Ann street in Greenock as I had a friend by that name I lived just round the corner in Wellington street ???

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      Last 2 weeks are the most important though, and there needs to be a “rapid response unit” to counter any last minute move like the VOW. That was missing last time.

    55. Dramfineday says:

      Aye I mind fine plodding round the doors posting those SNP newspapers by the hundred (and the abuse and tear ups I got at some doors too). Then the wee blue book came out and I recall thinking, this is the stuff I should have been posting.

    56. Ghillie says:

      The WBB was, and still is, brilliant!

      I remember campaigning on Middle Meadow Walk by Eniburgh Uni and being approached by a tall young lad (wearing a top with crossed oars) who asked for a WBB.

      He tore it in half in front of me.

      I was shocked by his meanness but saw then the raw fear.

      That is a powerful wee book 🙂

      Needless to say, his friends were appalled and told him ‘not cool dude!’ Maybe they went on to vote yes =)

      Looking forward the new Wee Mysterycolour Book 🙂

    57. One_Scot says:

      Lol, ‘we plan to print a million copies’, said like it was an every day occurrence.

      A measure of how far we have come, and when I say ‘we’, I mean you.

    58. Welsh Sion says:

      I notice that Allan Little makes an appearance in this programme regarding IndyRef1 and says:

      “I know how hard my colleagues in London work at trying to get it right.

      “It’s in the DNA when you are a BBC journalist.

      “I’m not cynical about that but I was quite surprised by some of my colleagues failing to understand their own assumption that the Yes side was wrong.”

      He added that some colleagues thought “that our responsibility was to produce a series of pieces to demonstrate how foolish it would be to vote Yes”.

      ________

      This would be the same Allan Little who was politely asked at the 2014 SNP Annual Conference by a prospective election candidate to feature me in a BBC news broadcast, so that other voices demonstrating support for YES from the ones MSM usually presented, i.e. “It was only Alex Salmond’s gig,” could be shown and heard.

      Little dismissed this, claiming the voice of a Welshy in support of Scottish Independence would hold no interest for a UK-wide audience.

      BBC bias and London-centricty much?

    59. Confused says:

      PS – own comment above
      denis healeys dictum about referendums is also why cameron offered a brexit vote
      – to head off ukip, an empty ballot he thought he would skoosh
      – probably made cameron quite unpopular with the city boys – I dont imagine he is making anything close to what blair is, with all the soft jobs

      in a funny way, when we get our independence – the collective machinations of
      nigel farage (and his backers – trying to pull the tories right)
      david cameron (writing a cheque, never to be cashed)
      theresa may (calling a GE she didnt need to)
      arlene foster (intransigence making a reasonable brexit impossible)
      – will have acted as unwitting midwives to our freedom

      talk about – “unintended consequences” – history makes a fine jest as the thrashing of the union and its deep state coalesce to ensure the loss of several trillion dollars worth of hard, real, wealth
      – this is a real “nelson muntz” moment
      HA-HA!

    60. jfngw says:

      @HYUDF

      It would be the opposed by the majority of Scottish MP’s and would therefore be English MP’s deciding to remove the democratically elected Scottish representatives from Holyrood and Westminster. Any troops used would unlikely be from Scottish regiments (as history has taught us). That is effectively one country (UK is not a country) suppressing the wishes of another, so tantamount to an invasion. It unlikely to end well for the UK, they have few international friends (reducing daily currently) as it is.

    61. Welsh Sion says:

      I see that this documentary features Allan Little of the BBC who says,

      “I know how hard my colleagues in London work at trying to get it right.

      “It’s in the DNA when you are a BBC journalist.

      “I’m not cynical about that but I was quite surprised by some of my colleagues failing to understand their own assumption that the Yes side was wrong.”

      He added that some colleagues thought “that our responsibility was to produce a series of pieces to demonstrate how foolish it would be to vote Yes”.

      ________

      This was the same Allan Little who was politely asked at the 2014 SNP Conference by an Election candidate to feature an interview with me on BBC News – as it would present a ‘different’ (i.e. non-SNP, non YES Scotland) voice supporting independence.

      Little refused on the basis of the fact that the voice of a Welshy espousing Scottish independence would have no resonance with a wider UK audience.

    62. Welsh Sion says:

      Apologies – double posting on the Little story. (At least, unlike the BBC, I do apologize for repeats.)

    63. Grant says:

      Hate to say it but I think the opportunity has been lost re holding another Indyref for a generation.

    64. HYUFD says:

      Jfngw In the event of a British nationalist Government led by a Farage led character the majority of regiments and the military police would be English and few other international Governments would intervene. Indeed when Spain sent in force to arrest Catalan nationalists and prevent a referendum there was some concern from a few quarters but no intervention.

    65. HYUFD says:

      Indeed the current US President is an American nationalist anyway and friend of Farage and can’t stand Salmond or Sturgeon, Putin is also a nationalist, Macron and Merkel have enough problems containing nationalists in their own countries

    66. Habib Steele says:

      Stuart, you have my admiration! Your work is well researched with sources cited. It’s trustworthy!

      Please bring out an updated WBB and WBB!

      Thanks!

    67. Colin Stuart says:

      Wow – you seem to have set off an absolute flood of response, and apparently this is confirmation that authoritative truth is one of the best persuaders – although, in 2014, I couldn’t get some hidebound Nos of my acquaintance even to open the WBB; I’m sure from fear that it would demolish their “reasons” for cleaving to ancient Unionist lies and denial. Nevertheless, you can count me in too for a contribution to WBB 2. If we make sure there are copies to hand out or be picked up everywhere we go, it has to make a difference.

    68. Marcia says:

      What we will never know are the NO postal voters who had cast their vote before seeing a WBB and wished they hadn’t after reading one. My feeling is that it was a Yes on the actual day of voting but sunk by the postal votes already cast.

    69. findlay farquaharson says:

      it was the wbb, i changed a few cunts minds by givin them a copy

    70. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Does anyone know if there was any published reaction to the WBB in mainstream press? Did any unionists even attempt a critique?

    71. schrodingers cat says:

      the majority of english couldnt care less about scotland, another majority believe the uk propaganda which leads them to believe the scots are subsidy junkies and england would be better off without scotland

      people in england who support an english army invading scotland are few on the ground and such an action would finally push support here well beyond the 50% mark.

      westminster cant suspend democracy for ever, eventually there will be another election in scotland and indy will win by a landslide.

      what then?

    72. Referendum1707 says:

      There can be little doubt that the WBB caused an uptick in the Yes vote. That kind of fact based and verifiable information simply wasn’t available from anywhere else, including the SNP at the time. (apart from a few sites online including WoS itself of course but the online reach then as now is limited)

      One million updated WBB’s delivered diligently throughout Scotland this time round is a big enough number to cover approximately one to two hundred thousand undecided’s and soft no’s. It’s their votes which are going to win or lose it and I’m fairly confident that somewhere between 60 and 70% of them would be switched to firm Yes as a result of of it. Just guessing on the numbers of course but it’s got to be broadly something like that and there’s no doubt that it would put at least a few more percentage points on to the Yes vote and quite possibly significantly more.

      And I don’t see why it should have to wait for an “official” campaign or even a date. Why do you need an official campaign or a date before you can distribute something like the WBB? People don’t have to have a starting gun in order to learn the facts about their country and the truth about how it has been subjugated and stolen from.

    73. schrodingers cat says:

      the unionists last pitch is that the majority dont want indyref2 or independence.

      westminsters intransigence will ensure that support for indy will rise above 50% and be proven to be the majority wish of the people of scotland in either an election or a referendum.

      what then?

    74. GrahamB says:

      The week before the vote my legs had had enough of tenement stairs so I resorted to helping out at the Byres Road stall (organised by our Swedish, current Glasgow LP!) A youngish woman asked if we had any material that could convince her NO-leaning but swithering auntie so I slipped her my last copy of the WBB. She came back the next day to confirm it had done the trick with her old auntie and gave me it back in case I needed it again – I still have it as a treasured momento.
      My previous best result was on the doors encountering a young Welsh music student who was a 4/5 on our 1 to 10 scale. I think I moved him to about 6 but finally produced a WBB and left him as at least a 9, and he had 4 or 5 flatmates in the same state of dilemma so I’d like to think that was also a major shifting to our side.

    75. HYUFD says:

      SchrodingersCat if a Farage type British nationalist Government won, not impossible under FPTP, British voters would already have showed support for British nationalism using any means to enforce it.

    76. JLT says:

      Rev,

      Your Wee Blue Book was the difference at the time. I can remember folk – people who had not fully engaged or had kept particularly quiet – asking me for a copy of the book.

      Personally, if something happens again in the next few weeks and months, I would not only have the Blue Book ready, but a ‘bumper edition’ – the Blue Book, the Black Book (both updated and revised), but also a ‘red book’ – a book completely focussing completely on Scottish Unionist politicians (as well as key Unionist ones) and highlight every broken promise and threat they made since 2014. I know the Black Book is similar in nature, but this book is pointing the finger at politicians themselves. As an example, a small chapter on Ruth Davidson and a list of all of her broken promises as well as who she is linked to (several OO, the dodgy folk in SiU or other nefarious parties (the dark money)) as well as what members of her own party did, and who they are linked with. And with each revelation, a set of links so folk can look it up, proving that it is not just allegations – it’s proof! You’re basically laying bare to the nation, the skeletons of each of the Scottish Unionist parties and what harm they have done to the Scottish electorate in the last 5 years.

      Hammer it home to the Scottish electorate that they are going to hear those promises again, only this time, the electorate might not be so easily fooled as last time. If we have all the main characters, broken promises, threats and lies all compiled into one wee book, then even after a quick skim of it, the person reading it is going to be heavily influenced as to not to believe the Scottish parties, let alone the British State so easily.

      Pass the electorate all 3 books, and I think you’ll convert more folk in a very short period of time, because when they see the proof before their very eyes; no matter how nationalist politicians try to sell independence …those 3 books will change the history of a nation.

    77. schrodingers cat says:

      then the union would be finished

      there would be only one direction of travel

      thing is, farage’s british nationalism is now becoming only english nationalism.

      support for britain is falling sharply even in england.

    78. Capella says:

      It is guaranteed that the Westminster unionists will produce a last minute offer-you-can’t-refuse. They did it in 1979. They did it in 2014.

      We need OSCE observers in place well before any voting, postal or ballot box, happens. We need to know that the rules will be adhered to/enforced. In a binary ballot, TV and radio panels should be balanced equally between each option. In the purdah period, no new offers can be produced like rabbits out of a hat.

      We need to ensure that funding is transparnt and no dark money can be used to skew the result.

    79. cearc says:

      Marcia,

      I know two people who would have voted yes after reading it but had already voted. It was most unfortunate that the postal vote had akready gone out. I got my vote before I had any WBBs to give out.

    80. Scottish Steve says:

      Can just imagine the foaming from the unionists’ mouths. “Quick, the Jocks are starting to think for themselves, deploy Gordon Brown!”

    81. dakk says:

      All unionists are British nationalists.,A Farage style government would just be slightly more honest and possibly less warmongering,so wouldn’t make any difference

    82. Wullie B says:

      The Wee blue book from yourself and the https://newsnet.scot/archive/a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation/fro Paul Kavanagh were my favourite go to places to speak about the pros of independence, frankly the pair of you should get together and update and merge both to make a complete case of why we would be better off independent

    83. Ken says:

      iScot printed the Wee Black Book as well as Alyn Smith MEP’s Wee BLEU Book in large print format. We’re happy to do so again for the WB2

    84. CameronB Brodie says:

      By popular account, the Wee Blue Book is possibly some of the most influential political literature in modern British history. Of course the Yoonstream treats like death itself. Yoon hack are largely borderline sociopaths who’ve grown accustomed to being overly paid to produce partisan gossip and government spin.

      OT
      It appears that the Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox, is yet another crooked spiv on the make. He’s a Tory, so his ethical skills are bio-neurologically impaired and clearly not up to the challenges he faces in government. Go figure.

    85. Al-Suart says:

      .
      Stu.,

      I may get shot down in flames for mentioning this, but experience of real life has shown me many reasons to distrust thousands of employees in the nether regions of the State.

      1]. Please take adequate precautions for your personal and professional safety. If former First Minister Alex Salmond can be neutered in the eyes of many general voters, you are a valuable IndyRef2 person of similar standing at similar risk.

      2]. Please sort out some form of virtual “insurance policy” to ensure guaranteed print and digital WBB2 makes it to publication, in case the very real State security services go all Spain/Catelonia on your derrière. That also means publication of WBB2 is guaranteed if you are otherwise detained.

      Stuart, you have already sampled State warning shots over your bow: for example, your computers being seized by the police and kept away from you for several months.

      The forensic reasons of how WBB2 is likely to help get YES over the 51% IndyRef2 winning line as detailed in this thread make this post necessary.

      Please be in no doubt you ARE going to be stress tested by the workers in fictional Daniel Craigs very real wokplace building on the banks of the River Thames.

      By virtue of the fact this thread exists, you need to maked sure your personal security and the future of WBB2 are made safe.

      Sorry to have had to write this. The stakes are higher than even your astute brain appreciate.

      My gut instinct is that you will already have anticipated the need to protect your position. Please don’t reply to this on a public forum. One of the reasons for indelibly leaving this post here is in case any of the secret squirrel brigade are STUPID enough to try and put the kybosh on your work.

    86. Dan says:

      @ The Tree Of Liberty (11.33am) and galamcennalath (11.53am)
      Re. The late swing back from YES to No.

      Here’s a 3 min clip YES Argyll posted in Dec 2013. Have to say Alan Bissett was pretty much on the money.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scVW5BE29U

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says:17 March, 2019 at 11:53 am:

      ” … Currently, the SNP and Independence supporters are kept out of any BBC radio debate I come across. It is becoming ridiculous.
      I’m certaiinly up for contributng to a fundraiser for 1m WBBs.”

      There is one way that would succeed in throwing the unionist biased propagandists off their biased perches. That is for the indy representatives to either get up as one and walk out of the studio or refuse to take part unless there is a balanced panel.

      Mind you it is difficult to make a case for a balanced panel when every party bar the SNP and the Greens, (and the Greens are a bit iffy), are unionist. Thing is if the referendum is only about independence the choice of guest should be by indy support and not by political party when only one party is solidly for independence.

    88. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I wonder if the Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox, is considering his position? (more in OT)

    89. robert alexander harrison says:

      Well it seems according to the hootsman Nicola can just go for it screw the section 30 and the English prime minister shows we don’t need them to hold a referendum they even proved it themselves so go on first minister call it it’s perfectly legal to do so without English permission

    90. alexicon says:

      They say imitation is the best form of flattery so don’t be surprised if Westminster funds a better together version of the wbb.
      Have to agree that the wbb, as well as the YES quarterly newspapers, to a lesser extent, made a great impact on the voters.
      It also gave us foot soldiers more time to leaflet etc as handing the wbb and telling punters that this will answer all your questions was a quick and easy way to get over to the public, who then could read it at their leisure.
      I hope the next addition has quotes of the lies the by side told the last time.

    91. Ian Mackay says:

      A Large Print version of WBB2 is an excellent idea.

      An audiobook might work too. You could even upload it to Amazon or Audible etc.

      An Alexa or Google Home app of the latest Wings Over Scotland posts might work too.

      Anything that helps get us over the line!

    92. Hamish100 says:

      Hifud

      See you are using the word nationalist very liberally. Putin Trump Macron.

      What type is yours? Are the Brit gnats like you exempt from same terminology? Are some Brit gnats civic nationalists or Putin style.?

      Scottish Nationalism is inclusive not exclusive. You know that of course?

      Do the people of Scotlandd need to be “contained” as you describe?

    93. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev your print run of the WBB & Ken McDonalds print run still weren’t enough I couldn’t get enough for distribution .

      A million WBB in a population of 5.3 million people is to small Have another Crowdfunder & print 2 million . You have the distribution system in all genuine Wingers to get the WBB into the peoples hands .

      I have spare rooms for storage to act as a hub for distribution in Nth Lanarkshire & other Wingers would only be to willing to help distribution .

    94. Janet says:

      WBB: excellent!

      Real problem: distribution! We were amateur!

      Solution: postage to every address in Scotland. Admittedly expensive.

      To be resolved. But you knew that already, I suspect.

    95. Clootie says:

      The biggest threat to the union has always been facts.
      The Union has had a tame MSM forever and the BBC is their main propaganda unit.
      Information like GERS was designed by the to mislead.
      Every piece of export data is manipulated to distort information.

      Can some explain why we are locked into using the GERS data in the current format?

    96. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 I said Putin and Trump were nationalists, which they are, Macron is not a nationalist but a neoliberal globalist, Le Pen is the main nationalist in France. Farage is a nationalist, as are most of the ERG, the Scottish National Party are also basically nationalists too, social democratic nationalists maybe but still nationalists

    97. Andy Anderson says:

      I wonder what it would cost to get the WBB into every home?

      Distribution could via Yes groups, SNP and Greens. Happy to donate

    98. Clootie says:

      I forgot to say Rev.

      I have absolutely no doubt the the WBB delivered those changes in polling. I also have no doubt that the VOW and the other lies on the Pound, Pensions, Navy Ships, the EU membership etc turned it the other way.

    99. Clootie says:

      Please just skip past HYFUD and save yourself time.

    100. ahundredthidiot says:

      re 1M copies of WBB2…….can I ask, what is the distribution plan? for example, posting them out to targeted homes. Understand if it is best kept dark though.

      I am also not a million miles from agreeing with Al-Stuarts comment at 3:34……desperate times and all that.

    101. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 17 March, 2019 at 12:32 pm:

      ” … Brexit or No Brexit the UK Government could go one of two ways.”

      Now you may not have got the drift of this matter, HYUFD, but the whole point of the matter is that the United Kingdom Government is legally in a cleft stick in this matter so I’ll make it very clear for you.

      The clue is in their title and they have no legal way of escaping from that cleft stick. They are undoubtedly The UNITED KINGDOM Government – you just called them that above – up there /|\. However you have failed to understand exactly what being, “THE UNITED KINGDOM GOVERNMENY”, entails. It entails that in a court of law, any court of law, they obviously must equally represent both partner kingdoms of THE UNITED KINGDOM or they fail in their legal duty.

      So The United Kingdom Government cannot choose to support either side in a court case, (conflict of interest or whatever). Thing is there has not been a legal Parliament of the Kingdom of England since April 1707. However there is a legally elected Parliament if Scotland.

      Now as you may have guessed I have given this matter some thought. Who then is to stand up for the Kingdom of England when the legally sovereign people of Scotland decide to end the Treaty of Union?

      Not Her Majesty Queen of England, for she too has a conflict of interest as she is also Queen of Scots. Not only that but a member of the current United Kingdom Parliament said in the United Kingdom Parliament, within the past couple of weeks, that in an international treaty either side has the right to end the treaty if they so choose. The Treaty of Union is most certainly an International Treaty.

      Which beggars the question why is Westminster attempting to take the People of Scotland out of the European Union against the will of the People of Scotland? They are legally the Parliament of the United Kingdom and not the parliament of the Kingdom or the Country of England?

      … It could take the route of the Canadian government who granted Quebec a second independence referendum which was narrowly defeated by just 51% to 49% in 1995 after the promise of more powers for the Quebec Government.”

      Well no they could not. Quebec has not ever been an equally sovereign partner kingdom in Canada. In fact Canada was severally a dominion and a Colony but never a partner kingdom of either Canada or the United Kingdom. Thus a totally different case. You keep scratching around like a chicken looking for worms or bugs but the fact is that the United Kingdom is a two partner partnership of equally sovereign kingdoms.

      No matter how many times you try to divert the facts onto another setup the fact remains that not only has The legally Sovereign people of Scotland every right to end the Treaty of Union but the Westminster Parliament, not being the legal parliament of England has absolutely no legal right to even attempt to stop them.

      There it is, HYUFD, black upon white, The United Kingdom legally represents both Kingdoms of the United Kingdom and, as such, has no legal right to either take the people of Scotland out of the EU nor can they legally prevent the First Minister of the reconvened old parliament of Scotland simply legally declaring the United Kingdom over – as claimed by a current minister of the United Kingdom Government.

      Don’t you see that it is a great sign of good faith that the First Minister of Scotland has resisted doing so before now, and by not taking such drastic measures, (for England), to the extent she has angered some of the more hot headed people of Scotland by not doing so before now?

      So tell me, HYUFD, can you see any legal flaw in my arguments?

      I wonder how much of them are recognised by the European Union. There has to be some reason why the FM and both the SG, the SNP MPs & the Scots MEPs suddenly changed their claims and collectively now use the phrase, “Westminster will not drag Scotland out of the EU against her will”. They are, every one, insistent that it is, “Will not”.

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      Nationalist consider themselves superiour to others. Patriots are concerned with the well-being of their nation. BIG difference in moral outlook.

    103. Maria F says:

      Rev, that is more than enough evidence for me to justify the release of an updated version.

      Go for it!

    104. Robert Louis says:

      A magnificent book (I have the rather splendid hardback souvenier version). Just what was needed.

      Expect the unionist loonies to try to copy you next time.

    105. HYUFD says:

      RobertPeffers The Treaty of Union never gave Scotland identical representation at Westminster to England, it gave Scotland representation according to its size at Westminster, it may have preserved Scottish common law but it did not give Scotland a veto over what the UK as a whole decided. Scotland voted to stay in the UK on those terms in 2014 and the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU in 2016, though on present terms it may well be a stay in the Customs Union/and or Single Market BINO Brexit anyway given the way the Commons votes have gone so far, including voting against No Deal in all circumstances

    106. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 17 March, 2019 at 12:34 pm:

      <i ” … Or it could go down the route of the Spanish Government which sent in the Civil Guard to prevent the Catalan Government holding an unofficial independence referendum and arrested Catalan nationalist leaders.”

      Now you are going from the ridiculous to the sublime, HYUFD. Read my reply to your previous laughable comment.

      What part of the phrase, “United Kingdom”, is it you don’t understand?

      I already explained for you that the Spain/Catalan with Catalonia being an integral semi-autonomous region of the country of Spain which has an accepted constitution and the United Kingdom being a two partner united kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms bears no relation to each other.

      Yet here you are yet again insisting that the UK, (remember as a UK government it legally must equally represent both kingdom partners), could act like Spain.

      So straight questions:-
      Is the UK parliament the parliament of both UK kingdoms or not?

      Is the Treaty of Union an international treaty or not?

      Are the People of Scotland legally sovereign or not?

      Is the Treaty of Union extant or is it not?

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      @Vronsky says: 17 March, 2019 at 12:36 pm:

      ” … Because you use Bad Words. And say stuff. And that is not what polite people do. “

      Err! When did Rev Stu ever claim to be a polite person, Vronsky?

      Mibbies Ah’m getting auld an forgettin things – whit days is it the noo? Is it Saint Pat’s day or wis yon yesterday?
      ;-))

    108. Maria F says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      17 March, 2019 at 5:14 pm
      “re 1M copies of WBB2……”

      The article above has convinced me that the WBB has had a very important but underrated role during indyref. We need to put that right this time.

      According to this
      https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/household-estimates/2017/house-est-17-publication.pdf

      There were just shy of 2.5 households in Scotland.
      If the idea was, let’s say, to print a similar number of copies to number of households, what sort of cost we would be talking about here, Rev? Could a fundraiser be set up for this?

      I know it is incredibly ambitious both economically and logistically. But would it be feasible though? Because If we are going to aim to something, we should aim big.

      What other ways of disseminating it could be considered? PDF format to be made available to download from the National, commonspace and pro-indy bloggers so independence supporters can send it to their acquaintances and spread the word?

    109. manandboy says:

      Excellent work, Stu. Well done!

      1. Be ambitious for the WBB. More than enough is better than less than was needed.

      2.If needs be create a financial instrument through which to borrow money. Paying back a loan shouldn’t be a problem after Independence.

      3. The Wee Blue Book in TANDEM with an SNP Government promise to increase pensions in line with the EU would be a potent brace of weapons among the large population of pensioners.

      4.This time, let’s put EVERYTHING into the Campaign.

      5.Believe – and let the Nicola critics haud their wheesht.

      It is time.

    110. Golfnut says:

      @ Hyufd.

      ‘ it may have preserved Scottish common law ‘.
      No it didn’t, it preserved Scots Constitutional law and the supremacy of Scots law within Scotland’s borders. The Treaty is the founding document of the United Kingdom and both English and Scots Constitutional law are the bedrock on which it exists.

    111. Republicofscotland says:

      The Wee Blue Book was a brilliant asset for Yes. The next Wee Blue Book will be the same.

    112. TJenny says:

      Maybe Chris Cairns’ splendid toons could be included in the next WBB, on every other page or so, for those who don’t want to or aren’t into reading texts and graphs.

      Anyhoo, I’m in for another crowdfunder as oor Stuey’ll need a wage for this year too.

    113. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers In reality if a majority of the people of Catalonia wanted independence and an independence referendum and on some polling evidence they do and the Spanish government has refused to give it to them that has created a clash between the Madrid government and the Catalan government much as it would have had the Westminster government refused to give the Scottish government a referendum in 2014

    114. Petra says:

      I’m all for getting the WBB (or whatever) out to every household in Scotland and in the case of more remote areas to reach, that is houses few and far between, say in Shetland and Orkney (22,000 households combined and high No vote), post them out. Highland area has around 105,000 households. It’s also interesting to note that Orkney had the biggest relative rise in households in Scotland last year of a further 1,200 households. The rest could be delivered by the plodders. Anyone got any idea of what it would cost to post to Shetland and Orkney, as an example?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results

    115. ScottieDog says:

      We could get a small section of mythbusting facts about macroeconomics in general.
      Even just a small appendix

    116. HYUFD says:

      Golfnut The Westminster Parliament can still legislate and pass statutes over Scotland, although under the Sewel convention it does not do so over devolved matters without Holyrood consent. In civil matters the Supreme Court remain the highest appellate court in Scottish law, in common law criminal matters though it is the Court of Justiciary

    117. ahundredthidiot says:

      WBB2 dissemination

      Just an idea, but could we deliver a set amount to SNP local branches (or go with Ronnie Andersons idea) with the intention of hitting large shopping centres and supermarkets, at weekends, for 8 weeks prior to indyref2 – bump a copy under the windscreen wipers in the car parks and target bus stations/train stations with a handout system. This is low intensity, vast reach canvassing.

      We also need some high profile people (you know who you are) stepping forward and doing a ‘I have my copy’ photo campaign on that twitterry thingy.

      Because when we win, we need to win big – not for democratic purposes, but for the best possible future we can have.

      I didn’t put enough effort in last time. I will next time.

    118. Robert Peffers says:

      @ HYUFD says: 17 March, 2019 at 1:16 pm:

      ” … Scotland and England are both part of the UK,”

      Wrong = They are the United Kingdom – it says so in the Treaty of Union.

      ” … it would be the UK Government making the decision, the Republic of Ireland is not now part of the UK”

      No it isn’t but it is part of the politically partitioned country of Ireland and last time I looked Northern Ireland was also part of the politically partitioned country of Ireland.

      The bits you seem rather reluctant to acknowledge are that Westminster is the United Kingdom Parliament and not the parliament of England. As such it is legally bound to represent both, equally sovereign, kingdom partners in the United Kingdom.

      That all Ireland was an integral part of the Kingdom of England when the Kingdom of England signed the Treaty of Union. As was Wales.

      You keep posting as if you don’t acknowledge such facts but you cannot deny they are true.

      Westminster is not the kingdom of England parliament and legally there is no such parliament. Do you deny that?

      You are on a hiding to nothing, HYUFD. The truth cannot be denied.

      Legally, no court would risk denying that the United Kingdom, formed by the Treaty of Union 1706/7 constituted the United Kingdom and that it has only two signatory kingdoms.

      No court would risk denying that the Treaty of Union must still be extant for if it did there would be no United Kingdom and thus Scotland would be again independent but it would also mean there was no legally elected Kingdom of England Government and you cannot just say – all right we will just call it the Kingdom of England government. It would need to be elected but there is no elected government to run an election. Legally. and laughably Her Majesty the Queen of England, (who is legally sovereign), would be in charge. Good luck with that.

      You are all airy fairy illegal claims that every country on Earth with a bone to pick with England would refuse to recognise England as either a kingdom or as a country and probably Scotland, Wales and Ireland, (all of it), would be first in the queue with the EU states lined up behind them.

      There is no way out, HYUFD, there is no doubt that the United Kingdom Government is a bipartite united Kingdom, and there is no elected parliament of England. So Westminster has to legally represent both UK kingdoms or it breaches the Treaty of Union. If it breaches the Treaty of Union then the UK will be ended and Scotland will just walk away. With the UK broken the EU can choose which partner is the legacy member state and Scots did vote to remain.

    119. robertknight says:

      Mr Peffers…

      Your unique take, not shared by many outside this particular echo chamber, on things constitutional forgets that the Treaties of Union stated:

      “That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be united into one Kingdom by the name of Great Britain”.

      Unlike the Spanish Government, the British Government opted to ignore the “forever after” in 2014 by authorising a referendum.

      According to the article quoted above, it should never have given any such authorisation as it contracted the Acts of Union.

      That fact, if nothing else, proves that a majority decision taken by both Houses of Parliament, supported by a majority decision arrived at by the UKSC, can drive a coach and horses through the supposed constitution of the UK as and when the Lords, Commons and UKSC see fit.

      Therefore there exists no protection for Scotland, the Claim of Right, sovereignty of the people etc. under the current constitutional arrangement of the UK.

      To claim otherwise is folly. (In case you forget, in a few days the ECJ won’t be of any help to us either).

    120. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers Yes and the UK is the United Kingdom.

      Scotland is represented as part of the UK legislature but only in proportion to population, most MPs remain English as England contains the largest element by population of the UK.

      Of the major world powers, Russia tends to invade its separatist powers, see Chechyna, China shuts down any separatist dissent, see Hong Kong and Tibet, France has many overseas territories of its own and does not want to encourage any further growth of independence movements there, see New Caledonia and the USA also has no interest in encouraging separatist movements like California etc. Spain has its own issues with Catalonia. If the Scots left only to wish to remain the legacy member state of the UK then it would be England becoming independent, not Scotland. Wales has no significant independence movement and Plaid have never won a Welsh election, plus Wales voted Leave anyway, Northern Ireland still has plenty of Unionist Protestants, still a majority in the 2 largest counties in NI

    121. Hamish100 says:

      HYUFD says:
      17 March, 2019 at 5:04 pm
      Hamish100 I said Putin and Trump were nationalists, which they are, Macron is not a nationalist but a neoliberal globalist, Le Pen is the main nationalist in France. Farage is a nationalist, as are most of the ERG, the Scottish National Party are also basically nationalists too, social democratic nationalists maybe but still nationalists

      Pity you missed out answering the question I posed. What are Brit gnats?

      I’ll add in another labour Brits, lib dem Brits, DUP Brits, Tory Brits., English Brits Welsh Brits? Is the question too hard or does it not count in a colonialist mind set. As an aside the radio this morning with Derek Murray ex BBC correspondent and others over Brexit and Ireland has an interesting debate. Increasingly likely in 10 yrs NI will join with the rest of Ireland. Part demographics part disgust at English ruling and middle class indifference over what it means to be British.

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      Golfnut
      That one isn’t open to logic or reason, he’s here to disrupt. He’s rubbish at it though, so he’s useful to have around, if simply to point at occasionally. 😉

    123. Dr Jim says:

      I would suggest to the British Nationalists desirous of sending in British troops to Scotland to quell an idea or legal proceedings that they should first take out advertising in the media to point that out to Scotland and do it forcefully so that all can see what sort of creatures you are who would be happy to use such methods in the modern age to steal a country’s assets

      The Trolling of this site is bad enough by British nationalists but this latest threatening behaviour is completely unacceptable because it’s not for our benefit here on WOS because we know the guy’s an idiot Tory failed councillor from Epping in the land of England, it’s for the benefit of readers and if you’re reading this Rev, get this guy the flock outta here, he’s crossed the line, in fact the line’s so far away he can’t even see the bloody line

    124. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Clootie says:
      17 March, 2019 at 5:09 pm

      Please just skip past HYFUD and save yourself time.

      I already do as life is to short

    125. Graeme says:

      The wee blue book didn’t change my vote but it changed my mind because up to that point I bought into the too wee too poor thing but in spite of that I still believed in independence something inside me told me it was the right thing to do richer or poorer so the Wee Blue Book hasn’t made me an independista it’s made me angry

    126. Liz g says:

      Robertknight @ 6.38
      What your conveniently leave out is that the “forever after “ bit only applies whilst the Treaty is a live document.
      Or are you seriously suggesting that the Treaty is the only one ever in history that cannot be dissolved.
      For to believe that… is to believe…
      All the time and treasure that the Westminster Parliament has used through out 3+ Centuries to keep the Treaty valid was a wast of time!
      That they were on rock solid legal foundations and the Treaty was never in any danger of being struck down!!!!
      No sir
      That Treaty is made not of rock but of paper and we can and will get it gone….
      By the way I’m selling a big red bridge if you’re interested…
      I have a new one now and don’t need the old red one 🙂

    127. Heard an interesting thing on the World Service early this morning.
      Basically the EU is saying/about to say that even if there is a GE here in the UK they will not unpick ‘The Deal’ for any future PM so T May’s deal is it….not sure if that has been aired elsewhere during the day.

      Also, amazed at the number of times I have heard a discussion on TV/radio where people are saying ‘ … now that we have removed the risk of crashing out without a deal on March 29th….’ No we have not.

      It is still on the statute and is still the default position and now T May is thinking of NOT presenting her deal to WM next week for a 3rd MV as she doesn’t think she has enough support to get it over the line. So, is she just going to run down the clock now – 12 days to go….. Hmmm!

    128. One_Scot says:

      Looks like May might have won over the DUP by saying that if NI needed to adopt EU rules then the UK would also adopt them. Lol, I bet the ERG will be happy.

      https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1107347820619710464

    129. hackalumpoff says:

      @ronnie anderson 5:02 pm
      Re the next edition of the WBB.

      I have the time, spare rooms & transport for storage & distribution North & West of Inverness.

    130. Cubby says:

      It won’t be long before the Britnat Tory troll is saying that the the airports in Scotland will be bombed just like that other Britnat plonker said back in indyref1. This guy writes nothing but lies and propaganda. He is just pathetic.

    131. Dr Jim says:

      The FM says she likes the National newspaper for her Sunday read and Yoons go mental

      If they never read it how do they know what they’re going mental about

      I guess it must have been what they were told at the Ludge meeting, Yoons don’t generally read much, well not the big words anyway

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      I can understand why you might value the 2014 indyref as being sound, as you do not live in Scotland. I can assure you though, that the democratic process was considerably more fundamentally compromised than the Brexit vote (the state was the principle opponent against the indy movement). Need I remind you that the Supreme Court can’t support the Berxit vote. Is that your idea of moral democracy, Toryboy?

      Political Ethics
      https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dft/files/political_ethics-revised_10-11.pdf

    133. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 That depends and even demographers do not deny areas like Antrim will still have a clear Unionist and Protestant majority for the next century and beyond. Do not think the government of the Irish Republic and Sinn Fein think alike either, as a tweet by Simon Coveney today proved
      https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1107193246088904704?s=20

    134. A similar, shorter (large type), dealing specifically with pensions – please.

      That was the harder demographic/ subject to canvas on, last time.

      I personally handed out several WWB to older folk that accepted it but then went on about how their pension would disappear.

    135. Cubby says:

      A piece of advice for indyref2 that I think will be of assistance.

      Do not have any ex MSM types involved in the Yes campaign.

      In particular do not have any ex BBC employees involved and certainly not leading it.

      I would not trust any of them.

    136. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim I was hypothesising what a future British nationalist government led by a Farage like figure might do, I did not specifically advocate it myself if you had bothered to read what I wrote

    137. Legerwood says:

      Meg merrilees @ 7:03 pm

      As you said, voting to say the UK wont leave without a deal i.e. no-deal off the table, when the only deal on the table is one they won’t vote for and Article 50 mandates the UK departure on 29th March is not possible.

      As far as I can see the only way to reconcile these two conflicting and contrary positions is to revoke Article 50. That is the only course of action that resolves this contradiction and ensures the UK does not leave without a deal – which Parliament voted for last week.

      Neither another referendum nor a general election during an extension period resolves the current impasse.

      Of course, no one on the Tory or Labour benches will propose or argue for revocation.

    138. HYUFD says:

      Meg Merrilees The EU have said they will extend for a permanent Customs Union and/or permanent Single Market or a Remain v Deal EUref2 but the text of the Withdrawal Agreement would still largely remain the same, it is the future relationship which would change

    139. HYUFD says:

      CameronBBrodie The state ie the PM and most of the Cabinet and civil service were opposed to both Scottish independence and Brexit at the time

    140. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agree with you 100% @manandboy says at 5:54 pm

      This time it is all in, shit or bust.

    141. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @robertknight you are Adam Tompkins and I claim my £5.

      🙂

    142. Golfnut says:

      @Hyufd.

      ‘ Westminster passes statute over Scotland ‘
      No it doesn’t, Westminster passes statute in English law, which has no legal authority in Scotland. Scots law is supreme. All Westminster legislation must have added amendments to comply with Scots law. Westminster is constrained by the Treaty of Union.

    143. Colin Dunn says:

      I imagine that the No campaign will try to produce its own version this time round (the Wee Red Book, maybe) to flood every house in the country.

    144. McDuff says:

      O/t
      Listening to classic FM which was playing Irish music for St Patrick’s day and made a reference to the Tam o Shanter suggesting it was Irish.
      The level of ignorance of Scotland continues to astound me.

    145. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      You just don’t get Scotland’s democratic deficit, do you? It is the natural thing, in your mind anyway, for one nation to command another. Well Toryboy, this is the 21st century and us Scottish patriots have the internet and a whole lot more common sense than you appear to give us credit for. Honestly, your argument is paper thin and based on the most superficial understandings of reality. You appear bound in the empirical world and have no conception a richer reality. You’re an impoverished, ignorant, wee sole, so you are. You are a classical English utilitarian, as you are a Tory English nationalist who appears devoid of empathy, so most definitely do not have Scotland’s best interests at heart.

    146. North chiel says:

      “ robertknight@0638pm” , as you quote the 1707 “ treaty of union “ Sir can you please therefore advise how the so called United Kingdom parliament can “ devolve” Parliaments and assemblies to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ( with statutory powers etc) WITHOUT also devolving a parliament to England ? Where is the “ Barnett formula” for England?? and the English Parliament ?? Surely the union treaty is already partially “ broken” ( if not wholly ).

    147. HYUFD says:

      CameronBBrodie Scotland has its own Parliament for most domestic policy as North Chiel states still unlike England, I would personally prefer devomax for Scotland and an English Parliament as I have said before

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      Just remember, Toryboy, it’s your party that is attempting to usurp the Treaty of Union. Is that your idea of moral democracy?

    149. robertknight says:

      Liz G

      Couldn’t agree more. Any legislation lasts only as long as the next piece of legislation which supecedes it.

      Those who argue on here, ad nauseum, that this piece of paper states this or that and therefore that and/or this can/cannot happen are delusional.

      The Lords, Commons and UKSC can do what ever their respective majorities like and there is nothing that the Scottish people or Parliament can do within the rules of the UK constitutional playbook to alter that fact – except to pick up the ball and walk away!

      And the day that ALL Scotland’s MPs walk out of Westminster and declare UDI you’ll find me having a snowball fight with Lucifer.

    150. Cubby says:

      Another piece of advice for indyref2 that I think will be of assistance.

      Explain that the UK pension is one of the worst in Europe and it will be substantially increased in an independent Scotland.

      Commit to paying the Waspi women what they are owed for their great pension robbery.

    151. Petra says:

      FGS! Does the BritNat that goes by the name of HYDUFF have no life? Never off of here. How sad is that?

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      Devomax? How very fucking gracious of you. This is the 21st century, not the height of the British imperial Rahj, you dickhead. The Treaty of Union signified the joining of two EQUAL partners. Is it your cultural chauvinism getting in the way of your ethical reasoning powers, or simply your apparent ignorance of, and disrespect for, international law?

    153. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi robertknight.

      “UDI” is a pejorative term, internationally, implying some sort of illegality.

      Onnyhoo, there is absolutely no need for Scotland to declare UDI – all it needs is for the majority of Sovereign Scots to demand that the Kingdom of Scotland removes itself from the Treaty of Union.

      Scotland then reverts to being an independent country/kingdom.

    154. Dr Jim says:

      Annie Wells is claiming threats are being made towards her now

      Sensing a wee pattern with the Britnats now

    155. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight

      You are a bit of a glass half empty person.

      It is not possible for Scotland to declare UDI.

      Delusional – sorry but this is just tripe you are talking. What and where is this UK constitutional playbook you mention. Is it in your garden shed?

    156. Petra says:

      @ Cubby at 7:49pm …. “Pensions.”

      I reckon informing the Scots of the Tories plans to privatise the NHS would make a massive impact, Cubby. Plus the part Trump / the US will play in that. Maybe Stu has both covered, lol.

    157. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@7.58pm

      Is someone threatening to give her an education?

    158. Davie Oga says:

      3:28pm

      “Yoon hack are largely borderline sociopaths”

      It’s this sort of insult that can turn people off independence. Many borderline sociopaths have redeeming qualities.

    159. galamcennalath says:

      “The lexicon of Brexit, the United Kingdom’s buffoonishly mismanaged effort to leave the European Union, includes ….. a fanciful but revealing one: “unicorn.” It has come to be a scornful shorthand for all that the Brexiteers promised voters in the June, 2016, referendum and cannot, now or ever, deliver. “

      https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/25/the-magical-thinking-around-brexit

      The UK is now an international byword for incompetence, stupidity, and delusion. It’s a label which is going to be difficult to shake off. Scotland needs to be on the outside lookin in, rather than in the inside being tarred by the same shitty stick.

    160. Dr Jim says:

      Scotlands new constitution has been written up by a whole bunch of eminant legal minds and is being presented to Holyrood almost as we speak, Mike Russell already has it

      Links to text will be available almost immediately and boy will most of you be delighted with what this document contains, let’s just say the Tories will have no legs in the troosers their arses will be hanging out of once this hits the fan

    161. Sarah says:

      Re postal votes. It would solve many weaknesses in the postal vote system if they could only be completed on polling day itself. It would allow people the full time to hear the arguments and would prevent politicians getting an early indication of the result.

      I also think that the rules for allowing a postal vote should revert to the stricter pre-Blair ones.

    162. manandboy says:

      Scotland, and the rest of the UK, is now under the control of a rogue Tory Government at Westminster.

      Not to worry, the majority of Scotland’s voters are either unconcerned, uninterested, otherwise engaged, or only interested in watching TV.

      The Wee Blue Book will concentrate their minds.

      It is time.

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      Davie Oga
      OK, anti-social deviants. Better? 😉

    164. Cubby says:

      Petra@8.00pm

      I am not downplaying the threat you mentioned but the fact that it was stated in indyref1 that a no vote would lead to privatisation of the NHS may well reduce the impact of making these points. Hard to say – it can be argued both ways.

      1. 5 years on people would think NHS not privatised.

      2. 5 years on NHS about to be privatised through Brexit trade deals.

      On balance I think a lot of people would be skeptical of such claims for a second time.

    165. HYUFD says:

      Petra I have not posted for weeks before last week

    166. HYUFD says:

      Petra As has been claimed the Tories would do ever since 1945 and still the NHS not privatised

    167. HYUFD says:

      CameronBBrodie Scotland already has representation at Westminster and Scots confirmed they were quite happy with that and representation at Holyrood when they voted to stay in the Union in the 2014 referendum

    168. robertknight says:

      Cubby

      It’s called Erskine May, and otherwise whatever else the powers that be want to call it – the joy (or not) of having, for the most part, an unwritten constitution.

      The problem with much of what is argued or advocated on here is that it would keep constitutional lawyers in business for months – let alone the armchair experts of which I consider myself to be up there with the rest.

      If Westminster (both houses) refuse to play ball re. IndyRef2, then I’ve yet to hear any credible recourse of action stated here as to what the Scottish Govt./Parliament could do – other than shrug.

      In the current system the UK Govt. could throw the issue in the direction of the UKSC, suspend the Scottish Parliament, speed emergency legislation through Westminster to remove any and all ability for the Scottish Parliament to legislate even for a consultative referendum.

      My point is that those here who go on about IndyRef2 as though it is a given are likely to be in for a shock when “now is not the time” is phrased in a manner which is unmistakably “there will never be a time”.

      What then?

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      From The National: “Ian Blackford: The only way to protect Scotland’s interests is independence”

      It’s good but this might be better and not fall on deaf ears:

      “The only way to protect Scotland from Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn is independence”

    170. galamcennalath says:

      All hail Aldi!

      “ALDI were identified as the top supermarket for supporting Scottish beef producers “

      https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/17504237.aldi-top-the-scotch-beef-table/

      Scotch Beef is an EU protected geographical indication for a quality product.

      … and WTF is ‘British beef’? Probably the dodgy spin from the dairy industry!

    171. Cubby says:

      Let’s hope the Britnat Tory troll is the best they have because he has no arguments to make for Scotland not terminating the union. In fact he just highlights the type of Britnat Tory that thinks England owns Scotland.

      All the Britnats have are lies, misinformation and deceit. What a bunch of saddos.

    172. HYUFD says:

      Cubby Actually the UK was 9th out of 25 nations in a ranking of international retirement systems once state and private pension funds were included, ahead of France, Germany, the USA, Ireland, Italy and Japan amongst others

      https://www.ft.com/content/fad5f8da-e82d-11e4-894a-00144feab7de

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      Even Ian Murray would be forced to smile at that one 🙂

    174. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      Your either a total clown or an old-skool colonialist. Whatever, you clearly have no idea of what moral democracy looks like. Don’t let me discourage you though lad, as there’s nothing like English cultural chauvinism to add support to the indy cause.

    175. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight

      Proving once again that your glass is always half empty.

      You cannot have been reading on Wings for long as plenty of options have been put forward on Wings in the recent past.

      Try spending your time looking through all the previous posts. There you will find your answers. By the time you have done this Scotland will probably be independent and we won’t have to read your negative posts ever again.

    176. Liz g says:

      Robertknight @ 7.48
      UDI,UDI???
      Whit are ye on about man?
      You can either talk intelligently about the Treaty of the Union and it’s status… Or ye can waffle….what’s yer pleasure?

      Scotland is only affected by the Westminster Parliament while the Treaty of Union gives the Acts of that parliament the force of law.
      Once the Treaty is gone/dissolved/struck down any thing the Westminster cabal do has no authority in Scotland.
      They can play with their play book or anything else they like,because they too will no longer be bound by the terms of the Treaty either….
      They’ve not changed a jot or a tittel of it either in 300+ year’s
      They dare not,for all the claims that Westminster can do what it likes….They do not revisit that Treaty.
      All the Acts in the Westminster Parliament doesn’t make a Treaty not a Treaty,they cannot touch it unilaterally..
      They know it
      Their so called Supreme Court know it
      I suspect you already know it too..
      But thanks for the opportunity to ‘re post it for any new reader’s.

    177. robertknight says:

      Cubby

      Plenty you say? I’m intreagued to hear your preference amongst them. Oh, I did say “credible”, in case you missed that bit amongst all the negativity.

      RSVP

    178. robertknight says:

      Liz G

      “Once the Treaty is gone/dissolved/struck down any thing the Westminster cabal do has no authority in Scotland”

      Yep, agree with that. However, if roads to IndyRef2 are blocked by Westminster/UKSC, then how do we get to the “gone/dissolved/struck down” part?

    179. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 8.04
      Good to know that we finally have some form of written Constitution.
      I think that will be a big selling point on the door step and at meetings.
      Most people know and understand what a Constitution is (thanks to American tv) and mostly in a positive way too.
      I think, that the, you can have this,here are your right’s and if we do this no government gets to tell you what to do anymore.We are turning the tables and we are giving the Government the rules they are to keep to!!
      Will be an easy and positive sell.

    180. DRG says:

      If only you had printed 500,000 instead of 300.000 and the result may have been different…

    181. Liz g says:

      Robertknight @ 8.36
      Well that’s a big if robertknight…
      Obviously by the democratic expressed will of the people’s of Scotland.
      What form that expression takes will be chosen soon…
      Bare in mind that Westminster needs to be in it to win it,do you really think that they are dum enough to leave it to a General election?
      A General election campaign that would take place after they tried to fling up road block’s to an Indy Ref…
      Sooner or later Scotland will go to the polls.

    182. Effijy says:

      Hi FUD.

      Amazing the shite you suggest was all included
      In the First Indy Ref voting paper.

      Better nullify the corrupt result as my form had none
      Of that garbage on it.

      Maybe it appeared on the forms Westminster had printed
      For wee Ruth Kim Jun to fill in.

      Only an idiot would want the corrupt war mongering nation
      Next door to take all their resource , keep much for themselves
      Deny you access to the truth and demean and insult your country
      at every opportunity.

      You qualify all right!

    183. Phronesis says:

      NHS England’s specialist and community services are being privatised bit by bit, a complex system that is being dismantled and sold off. Brexit will accelerate a process that has been 3 decades in the making that benefits shareholders with no accountability to the general public. There is only one way that Scotland can be immune to this.

      ‘The decision to allow the scanning services to be privatised is further proof of the hollowness of the government’s and NHS England’s promise to halt privatisation. Oncologists at the hospital have expressed concern that forcing patients to travel to an external clinic will put unnecessary strain on already seriously ill patients and be detrimental to their health. There are also serious concerns that whilst InHealth may be able to offer the scanning services at a reduced price it won’t be able to provide a service with the quality and precision that meets patients’ needs. In short, there are serious fears patients will have to go for unnecessary repeat scans’

      https://nhaparty.org/cancer-screening-services-have-just-been-privatised-at-an-oxfordshire-hospital/

      ‘The National Health Action Party has consistently pointed out the dangers this app poses to general practice. The app should not be rolled out across England. It should be scrapped, and the government and the British Medical Association have a duty to listen to GPs who recently, and unanimously, voted for the app to be scrapped. Instead, we currently have a Health Secretary who is not only a customer of the app, but one who has appeared in advertorials paid for by the app. Breaking the ministerial code and undermining the very institution he is meant to be supporting, improving and protecting’

      https://nhaparty.org/the-spread-of-babylons-gp-at-hand-app-to-birmingham-is-a-further-attack-on-general-practice/

      ‘The NHS in England and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt are proposing a deeply worrying reorganisation of health and social care involving the introduction of US-style health bodies that could have a significant effect on care in Scotland. Unlike Scotland, which still has its NHS, the dismantling of the health service continues apace in England with the Government imposing £26 billion of planned cuts and closures. The NHS in England is also struggling with the costs of the opening up of healthcare to the private market. The NHS must now bid for thousands of commercial contracts each year against corporations like Circle, Virgin and UnitedHealth. Virgin Care has more than a billion pounds worth of NHS contracts’

      https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/allyson-pollock-and-peter-roderick-beware-hunt-s-nhs-plan-1-4635182

    184. robertknight says:

      yesindyref2….

      Thanks for that! It concludes:

      “Nevertheless, because of the fundamental nature of the issues at stake, and the inherent contestability of constitutional law questions of this kind, it is important that any such agreement (Between UK and devolved governments) should be not taken as an unequivocal endorsement of the view that Westminster alone is entitled to authorise a referendum on the constitutional future of any part of the UK”.

      Therefore the UKSC would be the body which would resolve the issue in the existing legal/constitutional framework.

      However, Westminster could strengthen its position in the interim and remove any such legal ambiguity as to whether it alone is entitled to authorise a referendum on the constitutional future of any part of the UK.

      If this occurs and Westminster, supported by the UKSC, blocks IndyRef2, what then?

      ‘Yes’ should NOT simply be putting all the eggs in the basket market IndyRef2 – there needs to be a credible ‘Plan B’ and I’ve yet to hear it. If such exists, forgive my ignorance, but will someone please enlighten me.

    185. call me dave says:

      A BBC News snippet from their site:
      20 Minutes ago.

      Theresa May’s Brexit deal will not return to the Commons this week unless it has support from the DUP and Tory MPs, the chancellor says.

      The PM’s plan is expected to be voted on for a third time in the coming days.

      But Philip Hammond told the BBC’s Andrew Marr that it would only be put to MPs if “enough of our colleagues and the DUP are prepared to support it”.

      He did not rule out a financial settlement for Northern Ireland if the DUP backed the deal.

    186. Muscleguy says:

      I remember we (RIC) were in Witfield in Dundee in the latter stages going back over people who had been canvassed previously to try and measure changes. Due to bus timetables I got there rather early and hungry so i went into the local takeaway to get some eats. Noting my badges I got into conversation with the guys behind the counter who asked if I had a WBB as their cook was a hold-out, the rest being solid Yessers. I handed one over.

      At the end of the canvass the owner insisted we all gathered for a photo with the staff and the branded delivery van to put on the wall. We duly obliged.

      The WBB did more than convert the undecideds and even No voters. It broke down barriers and made friends and boosted trade.

      It was around that that I got rid of my remaining copies by the simple expedient of leaving them on the seat of the bus stop in the morning. They were all gone (there is no bin at that stop).

      They were very much in demand. We could have shifted twice as many, especially if it had come out two months earlier. I still have a very well thumbed hard copy. The two young polis detailed to ‘guard’ our polling station went over it for eg and of course I have a pdf copy.

      My No voting wife (she is and undecided sliding to Yes for Remain reasons) sneered the references were to Wikipedia. I pointed out that was because the were freely accessible. None of the links were behind a paywall or required a registration and Wikipedia has additional references for anyone wanting more. They were a jumping off point. That took the wind from those sails. But it was the best the No side seemed to have, sneering snobbishly at a demonstrable virtue. As an academic I applauded you for it Stu. Information wants to be free, just like Scotland.

    187. Robert Louis says:

      Liz g,

      your points above regarding the treaty of union are correct. You see, IF we go down the unionist nonsense route of saying England has the authority to prevent Scotland having an independence referendum (s30), then by that argument, it means England can prevent one partner of the two partner treaty of union ending the treaty – and we know that is simply not the case.

      Therefore, the reality is Scotland can simply end the treaty of union whenever it wants, and as you correctly point out, what Westminster thinks or wants becomes irrelevant from that very second onwards.

      Scotland is in a political partnership with England. It is not PART of England, and NEVER has been.

      Scotland right now has more than enough good clear reason that the whole world can see, for unilaterally ending the treaty of union. Once that is done, Scotland and its democratically elected government has all the authority it needs. It has a clear demonstrable democratic mandate from the electorate of Scotland. From the moment the treaty is declared ended, Westminster becomes a foreign government.

      Of course such a move needs recognised by other countries, but right now, it is abundantly clear to every person living on planet earth how corrupt, and dysfunctional Westminster has become. It is not hard at all to list the very long list of ways in which England has abused its position and effectively ignored the second partner of the treaty of union, Scotland.

      We can argue about this legal argument or that argument, but in the end it boils down to a very simple proposition;

      The simple fact is this, if we accept Scotland is in a political treaty with England, then we must also accept that either England OR Scotland can end that treaty at any time it chooses. IT DOES NOT NEED TO ASK PERMISSION.

    188. Thepnr says:

      I really don’t see a great deal to be gained by printing 2.5 million WBB’s and posting one to every household in Scotland.

      I can see why it seems a good idea as nobody needs to go hunting for a copy but with as many as 1 million on the streets those that wanted one would get one.

      My concern is that the same thing could happen to half of those delivered as happened to Ghillie with the obnoxious student who ripped it in half in front of her face in 2014 in Edinburgh.

      That’s a waste of a resource if half of them are binned as you can be sure there will be hundreds of other grass roots organisations and Yes groups and Indy sites online who will be looking for financial support in the event of a second referendum.

      I’m thinking of groups like Phantom Power, Independence Live, WGD, nad the many other small groups that are capable of making an impact on the vote in favour of Yes.

      It’s not just that though, I believe the real impact of a WBB happens when it is a Yes supporter who presents a No supporter a copy to read especially if that No supporter is a member of their family, a personal friend or even a work colleague.

      That was the secret of the last WBB, getting them first into the hands of Yes supporters for distribution to those who were undecided or reluctant No voters seeking more info. I don’t think we can afford to waste precious resources that is the funds raised by the grass roots and I’m certain that if 2.5 million books were printed you could think of more than half of them as waste.

      Get the WBB2 to Yes supporters and they will target them to best effect is my view.

    189. HYUFD says:

      Phoronesis The NHS is free at the point of delivery and remains so, the fact some contracts are awarded to the most efficient provider does not change that and is in fact in accordance with EU competition law. The use of apps and more technology in the NHS is in line with 21st century needs and helps ensure medical treatment better meets the needs of the specific patient

    190. Ken500 says:

      Good to know there will be lots more WBB!s ou when the campaign starts. It will be starting from a higher YES % base. Much more people are aware from the last one. Even more politically engaged. Look at Westminster they could not make a worse shambles. What an absolute mess of corruption. Just disgraceful.

      Many people were excited, in the belief during the last IndyRef campaign, that the true facts would come out. MSM would publish facts and figures and publish an in depth analysis. Just like Wings but in the MSM. Instead it was just a put down every time. In order to follow the Westminster hierarchy line. Total injustice of ignorance and corruption. At least the next time people with more open minds and a higher percentage base will be engaged. To get over the line.

      The Bookies knew the result the last time. They had it calculated. They refused bets or would only take small amounts on YES. Then they abandoned that policy and took any bets for YES in the final few days. Knowing NO would win. Did they manipulate the Polls to claim for a possible YES win, to fleece people and make profits on the Stock exchange for the Bookies and their associates.

      It is always claimed that the VOW did not have sufficient influence on people, The WBB certainly did. It’s a pity there were not more of them. Especially in the places without good internet connection. The Isles and rural places. It is still the case just get one other person to vote SNP/SNP and vote for Independence. Or just Independence. There are 25/30% of people who never vote but who will vote in the Referendum,

      The disappointment the last time was excruciating, Thinking the tide had turned and YES had done enough to win. The first results coming were disappointing. It had to be higher for YES and that finally was not the case. A really disappointing NO vote. Especially in an area where it was expected YES could win . Really sad and disappointing. It took many people some time to get over it.

    191. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Very nice indeed @Nana says at 8:56 pm

      I’m assuming this is the same thing you alluded to at 8:04 pm @Dr Jim says?

      Just needs I’s dotted and T’s crossed at Holyrood, SNP & Greens will carry (wonder how BLiS_____d and the FibDems vote) and then for the Sovereign People of Scotland not to bottle it.

      Breeks will be happy (as will most of us BTL).

      12 days to get it squared away seems about right.

      🙂

    192. marsfries says:

      The SNP should get involved in the distribution of WBB 2.0. I also think there should be a huge billboard campaign highlighting the lies of the No campaign from 2014 as is currently done with Brexiter quotes across England.

    193. Rosemary MacKenzie says:

      This Wee Blue Book is brilliant! Actually it is dynamite. The only reason I can think of that Scotland is not now self governing is that not enough people read it. I was living in the south of England at the time and didn’t know about it, obviously, but if everyone in Scotland had read it – Brexit wouldn’t be such a big issue to Scotland.

      I watched the BBC coverage of the 2014 referendum and it seemed the audience in any town hall was well orchestrated because the BBC presenter always managed to end the discussion with a NO voter. I really don’t understand why Scotland cannot start its own TV/radio, surely nobody believes most of the stuff on the BBC, and would welcome an alternative. Radio Carolyn and Radio Luxemburg operated very successfully for years despite the wrath of the BBC. TV by satellite is perfectly normal. The BBC is not trustworthy for Scotland.

      I live in Canada, but I’d be happy to help with crowd funding for WBB and/or broadcasting.

    194. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 8.15

      “…..Scots confirmed they were quite happy with that and representation at Holyrood when they voted to stay in the Union in the 2014 referendum.”

      No, in fact they did not. It has been firmly established that national born Scots voted by a small majority for independence and it has been realised now that the appox 650,000 immigrants into Scotland (around 12% of the population)have to be given more encouragment for the next push. We already know that a significant majority of EU nationals are now in the YES camp (having been scaremongered last time into believing they wouldn’t be able to remain in an independent Scotland)and English born new Scots are moving into the YES camp and into the SNP in large numbers as I write.

      Might be an idea if you actually visited Scotland and could then understand that your patronising bullshit is exactly that. But you are symptomatic of a English establishment that understands absoutely nil of Scotland but is now in a blind panic as its certainties about the easily led Scots is evaporating and nothing they do is working anymore.

      Once people understand they have been lied to and taken for fools (or both) everything changes.This where we are now. Bribes won’t work,economic distrotions and lies are ignored,even truths are disregarded.

      And the absolutely extraordinary idiocy and political incoherence now on display at Westminster has dealt a final death blow to the union.
      The effect of this is running in now and is irreversible.

      Emotional attachment to one party or another tends to linger on and is a painful thing to abandon. But once the decision is taken it is utterly furious.

      Wonder which substantial figure from Tory or Labour will be first across the floor or will there be several at the same time.

      BTW I still have no adequate explanation how Argyll and Bute (and four other mostly SNP inclined constituencies) returned a 97% take up on postal votes (no dispute about this figure) which is impossible.

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the stresses the English NHS is under. Brexit will only deepen these and ensure they spread to Scotland. Willingness to trust one’s biological security to the Tories, should trigger mandatory psychological assessments. And I’m only slightly joking.

      Brexit: the implications for health and social care

      Brexit has major implications for health and social care in England. Here we look at some of the latest developments that could impact the health and care system in England.

      https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/brexit-implications-health-social-care

      The food politics of Brexit
      http://blogs.bbk.ac.uk/research/2018/11/15/the-food-politics-of-brexit/

      New research projects to assess long term governance implications of Brexit across the UK
      https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/research-governance-brexit-esrc-1.821380

      Who voted for Brexit? A comprehensive district-level analysis
      https://academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article/32/92/601/4459491

    196. Ken500 says:

      The Condems cut NHS £4Billion a year and Education £6Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. They cut welfare £18Billion over 6 years. Averages £3Billion a year. May claims to be putting in the £20Billion cut. Claiming it is new funding. The SNP Scottish Gov has had to mitigate these cuts. Barnett consequentials loss.

      Cameron and Clegg elected to protect NHS and Educstion cut both. The austerity welfare cuts have caused misery, hardship and death. Totally unneccessary. The Tories are spending and wasting £Billions on Trident, HS2, Hinkley Point.The Tory slush funds. This could de better spent.

    197. CameronB Brodie says:

      “The NHS is free at the point of delivery and remains so, the fact some contracts are awarded to the most efficient provider does not change that and is in fact in accordance with EU competition law.”

      I smell shite of a distinctly neo-liberal guff.

    198. Nana says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      I was going to save the link for the morning but I couldn’t wait to share it 🙂

    199. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The WBB was a remarkable document, its only “fault” being that (even with better distribution) it wouldn’t necessarily reach all the determinedly uninterested, being so detailed.

      It was of its time, full of (well-documented) positivity. However now we need the “ying” to the “yang”: a Wee Black Book that carefully places each specific promise made in 2014 against the miserable reality that has been perpetrated upon us by the liars since, not least Brexit and the dark money.

      Next time round, we need to affront and scare the bejasus out of people with the WBkB so that they will turn with enhanced interest to the WBB for a reassuring way forward.

    200. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight

      ” forgive my ignorance” – no sorry. Look and thou shalt find. If it’s really important to you go and look in previous posts. If it’s not then pack in the negative stuff.

      You make all manner of assertions and talk about ” credible” but want to be spoon fed. Lazy lazy.

      Or if you are that smart perhaps you may want to try working out some options for yourself. Or do you just like being negative about the prospects of Scottish independence. Heard it before. – we’re doomed, doomed I tell you doomed. We can’t do anything – doomed to be ruled forever by Westminster doomed I tell you, doomed.

      If the independence movement had listened to your point of view we would still be down at single figure percentage support with no Scottish Parliament never mind a Scotgov and indyref1 would never have taken place.

    201. North chiel says:

      As and until May’s “ deal” is approved or otherwise our FM and Holyrood parliament cannot take a position re the Brexit “ triple mandate” . Thereafter if the mandate becomes valid then it will be interesting to see if the opening “ shots” from our government is legal initiatives linked to the constitutional aspects of Brexit , as in Scotland’s case the parliaments of Holyrood , Westminster and The EU are all affected re transfers of powers etc. Given that the sovereign decision of the people of Scotland was decisively to remain as EU citizens and their sovereignty is vested in our Westminster MP’s , then I would argue that unless a majority of that representation voted to revoke the EU citizenship of the Scottish people , then because this is a constitutional and sovereignty issue , unless the “ Scottish majority” voted leave ( and as every local authority area in Scotland voted to Remain unsurprisingly the people’s sovereign wishes should rightly be reflected by a remain majority of our MP’s ) then being outvoted predominantly by English “ leave” MP’s and “ Brexited” would be a breach of the treaty of union .
      This legal and constitutional challenge would very probably have the backing of all Scottish political opinion except obviously the “ Britnat Scots Tories”) , and could therefore unify around 75 percent of Scottish people and politicians against this citizenship issue in the context of our sovereignty. Could this possible legal/ constitutional action be a forerunner to Indyref2?

    202. Maria F says:

      obertknight says:
      17 March, 2019 at 6:38 pm

      “Unlike the Spanish Government, the British Government opted to ignore the “forever after” in 2014 by authorising a referendum”

      Well, that Westminster has “to give consent” in any way or form for Scotland, one of the equal signatories of the treaty of union to have a referendum is you personal view, overtknight. I didn’t see the England MPs in control of the UK gov begging consent from the 27 for the EU ref. Did you? So if they did not have to, why should Scotland have to?

      The Kingdoms of Scotland and England signed a treaty of union. It was not a declaration of surrender by any of the kingdoms nor a transfer of sovereignty from one onto the other. The last time I checked “Westminster” is not an independent entity to any of those 2 kingdoms. On the contrary, “Westminster” is very much dependent on those kingdoms. It is not the owner of those 2 kingdoms nor the absolute ruler that it is pretending to be. Westminster’s legitimacy to rule over both kingdoms only exists because those 2 kingdoms say so therefore it is totally ridiculous now to even entertain the idea that Westminster should have any power whatsoever on deciding when the 2 kingdoms who determine if Westminster has legitimacy or not, can or cannot take away that legitimacy from Westminster.

      It is a little bit like the owner of a company having to beg consent from the manager of the branch to sack the manager for surplus to requirements. Of course the manager will say no. There is a massive conflict of interest here for Westminster ever to be impartial. It is totally absurd in any possible way you look at it. From where I am standing, it very much looks like Westminster (the manager) is here overstepping the mark by demanding to determine if and when the owner of the company who hired the manager, pays the manager’s wages and determines their job description (Scotland or England) can decide to dissolve the company or not.

      As I said, absurd and when you take into account the words of the Attorney General regarding the ability of the partners of a treaty to unilaterally revoke it if there are unforeseeable changes of circumstances, then this “consent” from the manager (Westminster) to sack the manager comes across as even more laughable when you see that the “unforeseeable changes” have been forced by the manager (Westminster) over one of the co-owners of the company (Scotland).

      Now, when you take into account that the UK is a signatory of the charter of the UN and you read the 7 articles of that charter regarding self-determination then you see that “Westminster” does not have any choice other than “giving consent” if it wants to keep the pretence that the uK is a union and not some kind of colonial arrangement, because denying that consent is the best possible admission that Westminster is overstepping the mark and acting as a self-appointed absolute ruler that has a abused a treaty of union to incorporate Scotland as a colony.

      Catalonia was never united to Spain by a treaty like in the case of Scotland and the kingdom of England. Catalonia is an integral part of Spain that was military conquered, aka annexed. Catalonia’s current boundaries have nothing to do what they were before becoming part of Spain. You will find that the situation of Catalonia is very different to that of Scotland.

    203. Heart of Galloway says:

      An interesting and positive development right here: https://twitter.com/lllllinda/status/1106848032824414208.

      All passengers welcome aboard the independence bus…

    204. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. self-determination. If reasonable folk think this question merits serious concern within a democratic state, then it is obvious there is a serious socio-cultural problem of minority recognition and representation. I’ve already linked to international law concerning the cancellation of Treaties.

      #DissolveTheUnion

      The International Law of Recognition
      https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/24/2/667/494129

      Self-Determination
      http://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e873

      Minority rights in international law
      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/6/3-4/531/654430

      Protection Of Cultural Property Under International Humanitarian Law: Some Emerging Trends
      http://www.worldlii.org/int/journals/ISILYBIHRL/2001/4.rtf

    205. Robert Louis says:

      Maria F,

      The English Attorney General stated quite categorically this week in the HoC, that any country can end a treaty, if it no longer serves their purpose. He was quite emphatic about it, and was referring of course to leaving the EU.

      The legitimacy comes, as referred to by the English attorney general Geoffrey Cox, via the Vienna convention on international treaties.

      Here’s the point though, IF, just suppose it was England who wanted to end the treaty of union with Scotland, do we seriously believe they would hold back and say, ‘oh, we’d better get Scotland’s permission first, and if they say no, then we won’t do it’. Short answer, NO.

    206. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You can always post it again in the morning Nana!

      Good stuff, exactly what is needed right now to protect Scotland and her people.

      There may be arguing over the minutiae but that can be ironed out later.

    207. HYUFD says:

      CameronBBrodie Healthcare is required to comply with the EU internal market as much as any other sector
      https://academic.oup.com/medlaw/article-abstract/22/2/295/1048651?redirectedFrom=fulltext

    208. Petra says:

      “Scotland is now set to become an Independent country.”

      At long last. Music to my ears.

      @ Nana at 8:56pm ….. “Scottish Constitution.”

      https://yesdayscotland.wordpress.com/2019/03/16/scotlands-constitution-submits-for-scottish-parliament-approval-2/

      ……………………

      @ Phronesis at 9:04pm …. NHS privatisation.”

      Thanks for the links Phronesis. The reminder that our NHS will be threatened, in the very near future, like never before. To my mind, after pensions and currency, the most influential issue, if highlighted, that would push up the stats.

    209. Simon Curran says:

      Picking up on an earlier post. There has been widespread concern about abuse of postal votes as well as actual incidents of abuse. Has, or is, anything being done about it or do the powers that be ignore it as it suits them?

    210. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Thepnr @9.30

      Concur.

    211. HYUFD says:

      MariaF In reality whatever interpretation you want to put on the Treaties the Westminster Government could send military police or troops into Scotland to suspend Holyrood and prevent any indyref2 and arrest Sturgeon and nationalist leaders as much as the Spanish Government sent the Civil Guard into Catalonia to prevent any referendum and suspend the Catalan government and arrest Catalan leaders and the international community would do little about it as it did little about what the Spanish did. That does not make it a good idea as such but that is the reality

    212. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill If a Scot lives abroad or in England and is no longer on the Scottish electoral roll tough, only residents of Scotland had a vote in the referendum and they voted to stay in the UK

    213. Clootie says:

      Why do you all respond to HYFUD?
      Have you no sense of integrity?
      Are you happy to be dragged down to his level? He is laughing at you and the thread gets wasted not because of him – but because of YOU!

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      Don’t try to hide the big picture behind semantic details. You Tories and your New Labour minions have dismantled the welfare-state and the English NHS, and want to do the same in Scotland. Your patter really is dreadful Toryboy, and certainly not up to whitewashing the social trauma of either austerity or Brexit.

    215. cearc says:

      I agree with the Thepnr, that posting to every household is unnecessary.

      The ad hoc distribution system worked extraordinarly well because it was demand led. They were drawn from point to point by demand, rather than being sent to places. With more available copies and a little more time it would have been even better. As it was the spread was very rapid and thorough.

      The addition of small batches via ebay was also excellent for low population areas where box fulls would have been excessive.

    216. Robert Louis says:

      Clootie at 1021pm,

      Totally agree. As the saying goes, ‘never wrestle with a pig, the pig will enjoy it, and you will get dirty’.

    217. Nana says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      There is a lot to get through so it might have to be posted quite often 🙂

      I like this part from the Constituent Process

      The rights of all human beings living within Scotland shall be unambiguously and irrevocably protected, including the right of all legally in Scotland to remain. Legal action by the UK Home Office or any other UK institution, contractor or subcontractor against any human being in Scotland shall be prohibited and prosecutable.

    218. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi HYUFD at 8:13 pm.

      “Petra As has been claimed the Tories would do ever since 1945 and still the NHS not privatised.”

      Further to what Phronesis posted just over an hour ago, I would offer these quotes, from the link at the end:-

      “Both the Coalition and current Conservative governments have denied that they have been privatising the NHS, pointing out that health care is still free at the point of use.”

      Mmmmm…. that sounds like a mantra.

      “The increasing number of private companies providing NHS services: There is a long history of bringing in private companies to provide services to the NHS (e.g. cleaning, residential care).

      However, a radical shift took place after the Health and Social Care Act (2012). This Act brought about a massive restructuring of the NHS – a restructuring based on advice from a private management consultancy company, McKinsey. The Act ordered the NHS to use the private sector: it made it compulsory for those services that potentially could be provided by non-NHS organisations to be put out to competitive tender.

      Private companies are now involved in a wide range of NHS services, from GP or out-of-hours care to diagnostic services (such as scans or blood tests), elective (or routine) surgery and ambulance services. In addition, private, multinational consultancy firms are being paid considerable amounts of taxpayers’ money for advising NHS providers, such as hospital Trusts, on managing their service.”

      http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/how-is-the-nhs-being-privatised/

      Never mind, no matter how much cash is diverted to private companies, the NHS is “still free at the point of use.”

    219. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis @ 9.27
      Yes Robert, that’s exactly right.
      I would also add that the UK Supreme Court is tasked with interpreting the Law as written by the UK Parliament…
      The UK Parliaments authority to write Law comes from the Treaty of Union.
      The UK Supreme Court has not the Authority to change the Treaty either, or sit or in Judgement upon it!
      Sooo
      They both keep us talking about Act’s and Articles but never the fact that we are in a Treaty agreement.
      The only body with authority to change the status of that Treaty are the Sovereign people’s of Scotland or the Sovereign of England.
      Where it gets murky is the mess of England’s Sovereign position…
      As in the Queen in Parliament and the Judges representing their Queen in the Supreme Court, (and we wonder why they don’t attempt to write a Constution) who in England has the authority to say a thing about that Treaty…
      If the people of England were worried about being trapped in the European Union they should take a long hard look at the Treaty of the UK Union!!!!
      They have no rights to end it, their will of the people only gets as far as the UK Parliament and the UK Parliament is stuck with this Treaty…
      Or becoming the UK Parliament no more, which it’s forbidden to do.
      Westminster (the Westminster that can make or in make any law) is fobidden to do anything to dilute is power.
      This is probably how back in the day they envisaged the Treaty was put beyond dissolution.
      Universal suffrage would most likely never have entered their heads.
      Now though!!!
      It’s looks very much like the only way out of the Treaty of Union is through the efforts of the Scots..
      I hope they will mind and thank us for it, because as far as I can tell Westminster doesn’t like being caught up in a Treaty they cannot easily get out of 🙂

    220. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 10.15
      OMG
      There is no equivalence. Catalonia was never a treaty partner to Spain and was never an independent country.

      Catalonia will come again anyway but it made a mistake by not getting an agreement for a referendum. The EU which is founded on a principle of no interferece in the interna affairs of its member states has suggested that it would support Catalonia’s effort to get an agreement in line with the UN Charter which the EU endorses

      Ruth Davidson has said that it would be very foolish for the Tory Government to deny Scotland another referendum as it would make support for independence shoot up. Indeed it would.

      A General Election or a Scottish Parliament Election at which the YES campaign stands on a single issue of independence and achieves a denonstrable majority is as viable as a referendum in the eyes of the international community.

      If you are entertaining any notion that England (because that is what we are talking of) would do a 1916 Ireland equivalent on Scotland you are bonkers

    221. galamcennalath says:

      Heart of Galloway says:

      An interesting and positive development

      James Craig? Who? Where did that snippet of text come from?

    222. galamcennalath says:

      @Robert Louis
      @Clootie

      Indeed. No BritNat comes here for debate. Their mission is to deflect and disrupt.

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      So does Scotland want a national health service that is an asset to the nation, or does it want to enrich, trans-national, private insurance providers? That is England’s future.

    224. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Thepnr @9.30pm

      Concur.

    225. cynicalHighlander says:

      Duplication not good

    226. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 10.18

      What a stupid comment. Where did I suggest otherwise? All residents of Scotland from wherever on the electoral roll have a vote. Non residents do not.

      There is however many reports of people no longer resident in Scotland getting onto the postal voting roll by using a family address. No proof of how widespread that was but we had several reports of such here including detailed info.

    227. HYUFD says:

      CameronBBrodie £8 billion a year going into the NHS and 2014 ranking had NHS top globally
      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/14/nhs-holds-on-to-top-spot-in-healthcare-survey

    228. Liz g says:

      Me @ 10.34
      And that the UK Parliament is forbidden to do anything to dilute it’s power..
      Is why the 2014 Vow could never be real.
      Why devolution is power retained
      Why federalism won’t work
      And why any new “acts of Union “ will always always contain the phrase..
      The UK Parliament is Sovereign and…
      Nothing in this act affects parliaments power to make or unmakes any law!!

    229. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonethetoon Indeed it is, everything else entirely in accordance with EU internal market competition rules

    230. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Catalonia did not fully become part of Spain until 1714, slightly later than Scotland signed the Act of Union, as you well know the EU has so far done sod all to stand up for Catalonia against Spanish interference

    231. Petra says:

      Professor John Robertson really works his socks off on our behalf. Check out his latest articles.

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com

    232. georgie nicholson says:

      Stuart, tried to get a copy of the WBB from Amazon but it’s unavailable. Can you help?

    233. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      North chiel @ 21:51,

      For all the Scottish official coolness heretofore for any resort to constitutional legal wrangles, and the very evident reluctance of the so-called “Supreme Court” to touch the issue with a bargepole, I can’t see how matters can possibly progress without such a constitutional confrontation, and an almighty one at that, unless the present UKGov takes a more emollient line than – in their arrogance – they show any sign of doing.

      Gone however are the days when the Scots would put up with any and all liberties perpetrated upon their rights by the London Establishment. Our present SG is made of sterner stuff, and the current situation couldn’t be more relevant.

      I don’t consider that the UK “Supreme Court” should be the last resort either, if it funks the issue when directly confronted with it. I only hope that can be used to stall Brexit as well, just to “up the ante”.

    234. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s the problem with English utilitarians like HYUFD, they think their being clever hiding damning causation behind semantic waffle and empirical detail of superficial reality. That’s the sort of public discourse that undermines economic pluralism and so, subsequently, moral democracy. Our pin-head mate from down south really is a danger to open society.

    235. K1 says:

      Fao…well, anyone who is interested in what the twat is really about. So here is the ‘essence’ of his purpose on this forum, clearly stated by himself, do feel free to click on the link to the conversations we all attempted with him months ago now, do note this is not a ‘debate’ you are having, it is in fact a silly little man who thinks he’s here to ‘defend’ his sense of britishness.

      Feel free to ignore, but you may as well ‘know’ exactly why he is here in case ye missed it last time ah posted it 🙂

      ‘HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:18 pm
      The Tories got a higher voteshare in 2017 across the UK than the SNP got in Scotland at the general election which really says it all.
      I will of course never apologise for having pressing the Unionist case hard, if you do not like that as a diehard Nationalist, tough.
      HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:24 pm
      I could of course not care less what anybody on this forum thinks, I came here to press the Unionist case hard and take on the Nationalists (and any party which puts National identity first is by definition Nationalist). Notice the brilliant Ruth Davidson by taking a tough hard approach to nationalists has seen her party’s vote surge, she is undoubtedly as tough a Unionist leader as Salmond was for Nationalists
      HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:29 pm
      You will no doubt whinge as ever about Scotland’s woes despite the fact it now has its own Parliament which decides most Scotgish domestic issues and representatives at Westminster too. The Tories have of course halved unemployment from 2010 and reduced the deficit too but that is a different matter however no doubt you will whinge about that too’
      —————————-
      He’s here to ‘destroy’ us ‘Nats’ and if you want a real insight into why it’s a complete waste of time even responding to him…it starts about here on the 19th of August, on ‘The Cereal Offenders’, thread. There is nothing you can say to him as his mind is made up and if you continue to read to the end of that thread…you’ll understand exactly who you are dealing with, it’s nothing but ‘rinse and repeat’, he’s no here to debate:
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-cereal-offenders/#comment-2385457

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Yes, we really are heading in the most alarming direction. Smells a lot like the sort of constitutional fascism the Palestinians have to endure. Well, British nationalism and political Zionism are blood-brothers, so to speak.

    237. robertknight says:

      Several contributors state that Scotland can in effect nullify the Treaty of Union. What body would/could do so on behalf of the people of Scotland in the event that Westminster voted to suspend the Scottish Parliament? What would happen in the event that our MSPs walked up to Holyrood’s front doors only to find themselves locked out?

      The Scotland Act 2016 states “This Act recognises the Scottish Parliament and a Scottish Government as permanent among UK’s constitutional arrangements, with a referendum required before either can be abolished”. It makes no mention of ‘suspension’ however. Accident or design? You be the judge.

      DMH writes:

      “A General Election or a Scottish Parliament Election at which the YES campaign stands on a single issue of independence and achieves a demonstrable majority is as viable as a referendum in the eyes of the international community”.

      Now that’s more like it! But is that simply the opinion of DMH, or is there a wider acceptance amongst Yessers/SNP/Greens that such a course of action may be necessary in the event that Westminster plays hardball, or simply doesn’t play at all, with regard to IndyRef2?

    238. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      So, HYUFD, as long as the NHS is “still free at the point of use”, you, as a Tory, have no concern about funds, which could be used for healthcare, being put into the pockets of shareholders?

      OOPS! Answered my own question there!

    239. Hamish100 says:

      Hi fud are you getting double time from the Guardian?

      Try reading a paper that reflects Scotland. Actually I remember dearly departed Rock read the guardian!! Dangerous people your lot!!! Lol

    240. Dr Jim says:

      @Nana

      That’s the very thing Nana

      Thanks and wait for it folks

    241. Cubby says:

      Petra@10.56pm

      I have just read the link you provided and I have to say it is exactly what I thought about Blair Jenkins when I viewed Sunday Politics Scotland. It is part of the reason I posted my earlier (@7.25pm) comment on this thread about not having MSM ex employees in the Yes campaign.

      The rest of Prof Robertsons article is accurate as well – ” it was those big bad boys from London that did it” says BBC Scotland – aye right – only dafties would believe that.

      It is only human for people to retain some sort of fondness/blind spot for institutions that played a large part in their lives – even though the head is telling them differently. Therefore, Jenkins comment that the BBC is not institutionally biased. Brewer even said the clue is in the name – British BC according to some.

    242. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 23:06,

      Right on the button there. It turns whole threads to screeds of dross, as it’s intended to do. (There’s even a tag team going at the moment, it would seem.)

      It depends on what you mean by “intentional”, though. I fancy there is more than a touch of masochism there, among other things. Frantically declaiming that the deck is not so very obviously sloping.

    243. chicmac says:

      @Thepnr

      “I can see why it seems a good idea as nobody needs to go hunting for a copy but with as many as 1 million on the streets those that wanted one would get one.”

      While I agree 1 million would be enough, handing out on the streets, if that is what you meant, is not an ideal use of them.

      A much better use would be putting through the letterboxes of those identified as being persuadable.

      Such an effort would require:

      1 Early enough publication.

      2 Access to the returns analysis which tell us which areas to target.

      3 Cooperation by all indy organisations to provide the required foot soldiers to actually do it.

      4 A regional coordination system which ensures that only those areas are covered and not double delivered.

    244. Fireproofjim says:

      Judging by lack of comments it seems like few Wingers tuned in to the excellent documentary on BBC Scotland tonight. – Yes/No Inside the Inderef.
      If so you would have heard the mellow tones of one Stuart Campbell and heard the commentators saying the WeeBlue Book was a stroke of genius, and much better than most Yes literature.
      He was given a fair hearing, and Wings was featured prominently too.
      Recommend that you catch it if you missed it.
      Well done Stu.

    245. Fireproofjim says:

      It seems that, judging by lack of comments, few Wingers tuned in to the excellent documentary on BBC Scotland tonight. – Yes/No Inside the Inderef.
      If so you would have heard the mellow tones of one Stuart Campbell and heard the commentators saying the WeeBlue Book was a stroke of genius, and much better than most Yes literature.
      He was given a fair hearing, and Wings was featured prominently too.
      Recommend that you catch it if you missed it.
      Well done Stu.

    246. Fireproofjim says:

      Sorry for duplication

    247. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonethetoon Even if I did EU rules prevent private companies being prohibited from bidding for NHS contracts, one of the reasons Corbyn has never been a fully committed Remainer

    248. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 I read the Sunday Times and the Saturday Telegraph and the Metro and Evening Standard, I rarely if ever read the Guardian

    249. cynicalHighlander says:

      Never trusted Blair Jenkins from day one and when that odious Ross Greer (a closet facsist) became part of the Yes group hierachy doomed us from the start.

    250. Shug says:

      I do hope when Europe is asked to provide an extension to brexit they think to say yes but only if Scotland and n ireland get a vote on reunification and independence.
      The EU could gain 2 very good friends and England gets what it wants

    251. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Fireproofjim

      A plague on anything that the Beeb produces and its presenters, hatred of that organisation knows no bounds as it duped previous supporters of its supposed integrity. I only have hatred that they conned me and many others in the past, they can go and take a runing jump off the the largest cliff that has been identified on this Planet.

    252. manandboy says:

      HAPPY ST PATRICK’S DAY – except for viewers in Scotland, Northern Ireland & England.

      https://www.rt.com/news/454067-saint-patricks-day-around-world/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Email

      Before this day is over, it is worth noting that St Patrick’s Day has become a global event – even in Ethiopia. A reminder that there is a whole wide world out there which doesn’t see life through Loyalist or Presbyterian eyes. In other words, the world is not anti-Irish, unlike much of Scotland or the rest of the UK.
      With Independence beckoning, it’s perhaps time to seriously review our historical approach to both the Irish nation and other Christian Churches.

      Then again, perhaps that’s a step too far for Scotland and the rest of the UK in the 21st century.

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @11:21pm
      re. Public Finance and funding of the Scottish NHS. I was going to say the same sort of thing, only I was put off from having to look for more Fiscal Sociology. Thank you for saving me the effort and making the same point with simple clarity. Hat tip to you sir. 😉

    254. Robert Peffers says:

      @robertknight says: 17 March, 2019 at 6:38 pm:

      ” … Your unique take, not shared by many outside this particular echo chamber, on things constitutional forgets that the Treaties of Union stated:”

      Unique? Nothing unique about it. Hell we were taught about it in school way back in the late 1940s. I’d wager there’s quite a few of us auld yins still kicking around.

      ” … Unlike the Spanish Government, the British Government opted to ignore the “forever after” in 2014 by authorising a referendum.”

      Well! First of all there is nothing exceptional in treaties wording as, “forever”, but treaties are ended in spite of that quite often.

      Secondly there are several British Governments besides that of the United Kingdom. Including of course the Scottish Government and the Republic of Ireland Government. Last time I looked both Scotland and the south of the country of Ireland were still attached to parts of the British archipelago. Unless, of course both have floated away today while I wasn’t looking.

      Thirdly the Westminster United Kingdom Government are not in a position to authorise a referendum as holding a referendum is not against either Scots or English Law and there is no such thing as a United Kingdom rule of law. What was done was that David Cameron and Alex Salmond first of all agreed upon the wording of the question to be asked and then both agreed their respective governments would abide by the result of the referendum. It you need to know why it was because, unless agreed beforehand, referendums are exactly what the word referendum actually means.

      It means to refer a question to a group in order to get their ideas or preferences on some matter or other. In point of fact referendums used to often be called surveys. Trade Unions do it with their members, councils do it with their council tax payers. Companies do it with their customers and also with their shareholders. They don’t neet Westminster’s permission.

      ” … According to the article quoted above, it should never have given any such authorisation as it contracted the Acts of Union.”

      Rubbish! Where does it say in the Treaty of union that you cannot consult the sovereign of England or the sovereign people of Scotland about anything far less the Treaty of Union enter into on their behalf by their parliaments? Especially as the parliament of one of the partner kingdoms has not existed since 1707.

      ” … That fact, if nothing else, proves that a majority decision taken by both Houses of Parliament, supported by a majority decision arrived at by the UKSC, can drive a coach and horses through the supposed constitution of the UK as and when the Lords, Commons and UKSC see fit.”

      Utter rubbish! In the first place Both Houses of parliament are legally actually the houses of parliament of both the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. he fact that they act as the de facto parliament of, (the country), of England is not their legal and legitimate function.

      They are the United Kingdom Government and the written constitution of the United Kingdom. in spite of Westminster propaganda, is composed of the only two kingdoms that signed the Treaty of Union. There is a written constitution – the document that constituted the United Kingdom and that is the Treaty of Union 1706/7. The Treaty of Union Constituted the United Kingdom it is thus the written constitution of the United Kingdom.

      ” … Therefore there exists no protection for Scotland, the Claim of Right, sovereignty of the people etc. under the current constitutional arrangement of the UK.”

      Blethers, the current constitution of the United Kingdom is the only thing that constituted the United Kingdom and it is still current – for if it is not so there cannot be a current United Kingdom. Do you actually know the meaning of the word. “constitute”?

      I’ll quote it for you from the dictionary:-

      constitute – to set up by authority; to establish; to frame; to form; to appoint; to compose; to make up.

      ” … To claim otherwise is folly.”

      Hilarious – I’m not the one not knowing what the word constitution actually means.

      ” … (In case you forget, in a few days the ECJ won’t be of any help to us either).”

      Now where did you get the idea from I had forgotten? I’m just of the opinion that no matter what happens in Westminster in the near future the United Kingdom is on its very last legs and that when the end comes Scotland will have no problem whatsoever and will be welcomed with open arms by the EU. BTW: there isn’t and never has been a queue to have EU membership – especially as Scotland has qualified for all EU requirements since before there ever was an EU. We may not even have to leave for all it will take to remain in the EU is for the EU to acknowledge the truth that the United Kingdom is a two partner kingdom and Scots voted to remain.

      In any case this from Hammond today:-

      “PH: If the Prime Minister’s deal is able to muster a majority this week and get through, then we will need a short extension [of Article 50]. It is now physically impossible to leave on the 29th March, but we’d be able to leave very soon… But if we are unable to do that… then we will have to look at a longer extension, and we’re in uncharted territory. I can’t tell you how long.”

      In any case it is not at all certain that the EU cannot, or will not, help us. However your guess is as good or as bad as mine

    255. K1 says:

      Second part of Yes/No indyref doc was first broadcast on Tuesday night Fireproofjim, must’ve been a repeat tonight from what you are saying, it’s been available on iplayer since the next day.

      Third and final part is broadcasting on Tuesday.

    256. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      Cognitive dissonance supported by a touch a narcissism and hint of social dominance orientation would be my guess. 😉

    257. Liz g says:

      Cameron B.Brodie @ 11.06
      I don’t know so much Cameron…
      Westminster and the English are more constrained by the Treaty of Union than we are.
      They are stuck and, as we have all seen,they are finding it harder and harder to justify what the Union is for.
      (Well unless their prepared to admit they need our resources and even then that’s more reason to end the Union than not)
      They have no real reason that could demonstrate to Scotland that letting Westminster continue to run things is the way to go.
      They can’t maintain the Union and they can’t get out of it either.
      They can barely keep their own population blinkered anymore.
      Sadly I think it will take quite some time for the bulk of the English population to let go and change the way they are governed,they do seem over fond of Westminster and their royal shit show.
      Scotland, I think,wants to go forward into the 21st century, and,as the Historian Tom Devine pointed out “football used to be the tip of Scotland’s sectarian iceberg,now there’s only the tip”.
      Yes,it’s having it’s last gasp,aided and abetted by the British state…. But our young have moved on…
      And If that’s all they’ve got to support this dammed Union!!!
      Then the Union is indeed dammed.

      I know it’s very much an over generalisation (and forgive me for it) but the Israel/Palestinian thing is very much sectarian in nature.As is,I’ve found, usually always the case when religious beliefs “other” other people and one has greater power than another.
      The governments use this … Always have…

      We in Scotland are fortunately in a place right now where such a thing has been shown and condemned as wrong for decades now,we can be disgusted by it,and,show and teach that disgust to our kid’s, the powers that be cannot undo it now…
      The OO and their followers have been on the defensive for quite some time now,they feel that they are portrayed to be in the wrong and that’s why they are also so angry.
      They have being reduced to claiming “kulture” and that they really are tolerant of everyone…this is so different,from when no one could say a thing against them,such was their influence.
      But times change,Scotland has changed, and I for one just love that our much maligned young people are moving on.
      No 1690,no 1707, for them… Now is their time and we’d better get them a Government fit to serve them and a Constitution fit to protect them…
      So no Cameron,thankfully I don’t think we are going to see a Middle East type situation here,if, for no other reason than we are now a relatively secular country now and cannot be played like that again..

    258. Hamish100 says:

      HYUFD says:
      17 March, 2019 at 11:36 pm
      Hamish100 I read the Sunday Times and the Saturday Telegraph and the Metro and Evening Standard, I rarely if ever read the Guardian

      Your wasting your money with that lot. All are right anti-immigration owned by many rich toy boys who prefer not to pay taxes in the U.K. Very unpatriotic. No wonder you need help. Lol

      Ps you referred to the Guardian

    259. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 11.58
      Oh he’s changed his position now Robert,he is no longer arguing that your take on the Union is just for a few posters on here.
      Moved it to wondering about how Scotland will get around no section 30…
      The Treaty that was a figment of your imagination is now a real thing..
      And can be struck down too…
      There’s no more Westminster could not,should not have given permission for Indy ref one either…
      But but don’t say anything Robert,I don’t think he knows we noticed. 🙂

      How are ye keepin this weather Robert?

    260. Thepnr says:

      @Chicmac

      While I agree 1 million would be enough, handing out on the streets, if that is what you meant, is not an ideal use of them.

      Hi Chic, I never said anything like that though that is what did happen towards the end as there simply wasn’t enough time to do any better so I agree with you there.

      What I actually said in my post was:

      I believe the real impact of a WBB happens when it is a Yes supporter who presents a No supporter a copy to read especially if that No supporter is a member of their family, a personal friend or even a work colleague.

      I don’t think many would disagree with that as the personal approach is far more likely to have some success than something through the letterbox that you did not ask for.

      If funds were unlimited then of course post a WBB2 to every household in Scotland, along with it send then DVD’s of No to Yes stories and free copies of iScot magazine. Funds are not unlimited though and 1 million WBB2 books hopefully will be enough. There is always the downloadable pdf and there were large print versions and audible books too IIRC.

      Creating a demand is very much helped by an assumed shortage, think of queues for the latest iPhone or whatever. Nothing wrong with getting people talking and a “must have one” must have one” way of thinking LOL.

    261. ben madigan says:

      looks like Scotland is on the move – Talking about dissolving the Treaty of Union and producing a new edition of the WBB – Way to go!
      Ireland stands with you –
      Onwards and upwards to liberty, equality and fraternity

    262. Ken500 says:

      There are nationalised industries in EU countries. There are negotiations. If a country can show there is a need or justification on relative grounds the EU agreed to it. Part of Germany’s railways are owned by the Gov. The German Gov owns 100% of the shared. German coal industry was owned by the Gov in some way.

      Under EU rules one company can’t own the railways and the track.

      Luxembourg is said to be going to bring in free transport. ‘Nationalised’.
      RBS is owned, majority, by UK Gov. 80% Nationalised? Own the shares.

      Minimum unit pricing was introduced in Scotland. After protests by drink companies. Ended up in Court. Agreed by EU on health grounds. If Scottish courts agreed.

      Some of the Scottish Island ferries are subsidised. Given funds as an essential service.

      What does Corbyn want to nationalise. It will probably turn out a disaster. He has not got a clue. When Labour introduced a wages policy to curb inflation. It did not work. When they ihtrofuced rent control. People ended up living in worse accomodation. There was a shortage of houses. People stopped letting out houses? They should have built more Council houses. Secure tenancy. Thatcher sold them off. Did not replace them, ‘Cathy come home’. Quite tragic.

      Scotland could easily go to Court to get an S30.The Westminster Gov would not have a leg to stand on. The way Westminster has treated Scotland.

      .

    263. Liz g says:

      ben madaigan @ 12.32
      Why,thank you ben….And a belated happy st Patrick’s day to ye.
      I do wonder though,why are ye still sober enough to post. 🙂
      Only kidding 🙂
      Anyhoo,I thought it was just me,but it sounds like you can feel the change too?

    264. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      I couldn’t give two hoots whether an individual aligns with Calvin, Allah or simply wants to go about life not placing faith in faith.

      I agreed with much of what you were saying but that wasn’t the point I’m making. I was pointing to the fact that the Palestinian people are locked into a legal identity which is discriminated against and which can’t influence constitutional change to improve it’s circumstances. That could be you or me, if things aren’t handled just right.

    265. cynicalHighlander says:

      The Ootsiders – Brexit Thingamy

      just played on https://indylive.radio/

    266. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thepnr
      The closeness of relationship does have a bearing on trust. Most folk hopefully trust their family and friends over strangers.

    267. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 12.24
      You took the word’s right out of my mouth…or off my keyboard…or whatever the thing ye say that’s the posting equivalent of ye took the word’s right out of my mouth (k1,help 🙂 )
      Anyhoo… There’s something to be said for the WBB being rare and therefore special.
      As others have said… The No campaign will most likely produce their own version.
      They don’t have any other way to deliver it other than by post to every household… therefore… Ours should be publicised but not posted.
      We have the boots on the ground… Let’s do that..
      Jist sayin…

    268. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 12.41
      I still don’t think so Cameron,mainly because Scottish identities are not tied to religion very much any more..
      Which was what I was trying to say (badly) is the problem in Palestine on both side’s… While I know,and I know that you know,it’s not that simple… This blind adherence to an ideology leaves people wide open to such manipulation…

      Calvin ,Calvin,who the fuck is Calvin?
      Would I like this guy,would Cactus drink with him?
      I guess I’m really askin is he a winger?? 🙂

    269. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 11.36

      “I read the Sunday Times and the Saturday Telegraph and the Metro and Evening Standard,”

      Now there’s a surprise.

    270. HYUFD says:

      Ken500 EU procurement rules introduced in 2006 apply to healthcare and cannot be derogated from for healthcare contracts. Indeed most of continental Europe has an insurance based healthcare system, something we are still some way from, Germany for example provides healthcare through a mixture of private and state healthcare insurance. Council house sales allowed millions to own their own home who would otherwise never have been allowed to do so and profits now can be put into building new homes. s30 is a component of a Westminster statute, it therefore is in the gift of Westminster whether it should be applied

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      I don’t know if he’d be a Winger Liz, though I doubt it. I’m still not making myself clear. Currently, the British constitution does not protect the human rights of Scoland’s residents, Scotland’s nationals (see Brexit). Westminster is working to make this position worserer, and in a way that we can’t alter. So where does that leave the legal identity of Scotland’s nationals and what legal protection would we have under British constitutional law?

    272. Liz g says:

      Cameron B.Brodie @ 12.41
      Also… So you know I didn’t completely miss the point!
      We can all see the difference in the Catalonia situation..
      Yet they really are locked in to a legal situation,more comparable to ours…
      The Palestinian situation is more,I think, comparable to Ireland, partition,and the rule of the British leaning majority in Ulster… Accompanied with the powerful pals across the water!!

    273. geeo says:

      Nana@ 8.56pm posted this link.

      https://yesdayscotland.wordpress.com/2019/03/16/scotlands-constitution-submits-for-scottish-parliament-approval-2/
      ……….

      “When approved by Scotland’s Parliament, the Constitution defines Scotland’s independence, subject to a confirmatory process from the people of Scotland”. 

      …………

      That bit from the link looks suspiciously like what i proposed as far back as August last year !

      A Protective Political dissolution followed by affirmation plebiscite later.

      Exciting stuff indeed !!

      That should shake the rafters in britnat central.

    274. ben madigan says:

      @ Liz g who asks if I am sober enough to post:
      Of course I am!
      I posted my St Patrick’s greetings yesterday – well on time!
      But here they are again, just in case anybody missed them!

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/03/17/happy-st-patricks-day-2/
      And I thought of Scotland as I wrote them
      But things felt sorta stuck there so I didn’t mention any correspondences and similarities – which are very obvious

      Then I read through some posts on Wings this evening and
      it sounded like Liz and others can feel the change too

      Scotland’s on the move! Time to go!

    275. Liz g says:

      Cameron
      Lol we’re crossing posts…
      I think I understand what you are sayin.
      But we’re mibbi talking at cross purposes…
      For me there is no UK law,and especially no UK constitutional law.
      They (Westminster) can’t really make a Law specifically for Scotland and the Scots, (the poll tax devil was in the detail)well, not anymore they can’t.
      No matter what they do,we are still in a Treaty agreement with them,that’s beyond dispute Cameron.
      This is not the case for.
      Palestine
      Ireland
      Catalonia
      At all times Westminster have to be mindful of that,they might like to fire ahead with their tried and tested methods,and would probably have done so long since but something stays their hand… And they continue to try to pacify Scotland…. Unlike any other territory they dominate… They need that Treaty in place Cameron!

    276. Liz g says:

      ben madigan @ 1.25
      No ben,I didn’t ask IF you were sober enough..
      I asked WHY you were sober enough 🙂
      But yes you are correct….I feel the change in my land..
      And,Oh ben,it feels right, it is indeed time… We’re all good to go and get this thing done…

    277. Liz g says:

      geeo @ 1.25
      It is indeed exciting geeo,but don’t forget to put your own input in to it.
      I’ve about 10 issues with it,and I haven’t even figured out How to comment on it yet… LOL..
      Not to be negative,but rather only to make it really ours and not something written for us… We should all have a way in what the finished document looks like.

      How this play’s in Holyrood is of course an other matter, but that people are putting a Constitution to the Parliament,is in and of itself huge…Can’t wait to see the Supreme Court dismiss it as they must…Of course only after it’s been accepted by Scotland as exactly what they want… Dearie Dearie me…

    278. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      I think we might have been at cross-purposes but that doesn’t strengthen your case. The only way to make your interpretation of legal reality real, is by asserting the foundational nature of the Treaty of Union. Times and political circumstances may have changed but the Treaty defines the parameters for all subsequent formation of UK Constitutional Law. Unless the Treaty is acknowledged as the foundational document of union, the nation of Scotland faces an unambiguous existential threat from Westminster and the English school of International Relations.

      P.S. Better have control of the judiciary of you seek constitutional reform through legal review, or at least be damn sure of their absolute impartiality.

      United Kingdom Legal Research Guide

      UK Constitutional Law

      The United Kingdom has never had a written constitution embodied in a single document. The foundational constitutional text for what is now the UK is the Magna Carta issued by King John of England in 1215. Since then, the constitution has evolved organically over time in response to political, economic, and social changes.

      The present constitution encompasses both statutory law and landmark judicial opinions, as well as many conventions or unwritten rules of constitutional practice. For example, the residual powers of the monarch and the relationship between the monarch and Parliament are still governed largely by these unwritten but nevertheless binding conventions.

      Constitutional law in the UK has undergone significant changes during the past 20 years. Key developments include the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law via the Human Rights Act of 1998, the establishment of devolved legislatures in three of the UK’s four constituent nations in 1999, a partial reform of the House of Lords in 2000, and the introduction of a Supreme Court in 2009.

      The Scottish independence referendum, held in September of 2014, and the Brexit referendum, held in June of 2016, have strengthened the case for further constitutional reform, with many observers arguing that only a more decentralized, if not a fully federal, system of government can preserve the UK as a unified political entity.

      https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=365741&p=2471214

      The dualist system of the English Constitution and the Victorian acquis
      https://legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/2017/04/the-dualist-system-of-the-english-constitution-and-the-victorian-acquis/

      Parliamentary Sovereignty: Brexit and Schrödinger’s cat
      https://legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/tag/parliamentary-sovereignty/

      United Kingdom: The royal prerogative

      Executive powers—royal prerogative—House of Lords upholds government decision not to repatriate the Chagos Islanders—R (Bancoult) v. Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs or Bancoult (No. 2)

      The attention of the legal world has turned, of late, to the question of executive powers. An important site of such power in the British Constitution—although far more important in the past than today—is the royal prerogative. The royal prerogative refers to those powers left over from when the monarch was directly involved in government, powers that now include making treaties, declaring war, deploying the armed forces, regulating the civil service, and granting pardons.

      Prerogative powers are exercised, today, by government ministers or else by the monarch personally acting, in almost all conceivable instances, under direction from ministers.1 The defining characteristic of the prerogative is that its exercise does not require the approval of Parliament. Beyond this bare account, there is little agreement either on the definition of the concept itself2—those two giants of English public law scholarship, Blackstone and A. V. Dicey, gave contrasting accounts3—or even as to the precise scope of the powers still extant.4
      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/8/1/146/682649

    279. Petra says:

      WGD:- ‘The BBC’s Pickle Nick (Robinson).’

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/03/18/the-bbcs-pickle-nick/

    280. Liz g says:

      Cameron B. Brodie @ 2.46
      Well, no Cameron..
      The magna Carta might be the foundational document of the “British” Constitution in “British” Historians eyes. .
      But truth be told…
      At the time of the Magna Carter,there was only England..
      And while,Yes the Westminster crew like to quote Dicey…he was only one of at least 4 who wrote opinion at the time…

      18 something…. Which means the Treaty of Union was well established…

      Dicey was not an authority,he is just The writer Westminster agreed the most with!! And that agreement is what lends itself to his supposed authority today…

      It has to be said… Why would a parliament sure of its remit cleave to an academic opinion???

      The Treaty will never be acknowledged as the foundational document of the UK Parliament.
      To do so will undermine the Crown in Parliament..
      But nevertheless,it is indeed the document from which the current Westminster authority flows..
      There is no writings which will say this,there are no links to provide and there are certainly no judgements to demonstrate it.

      There is only that… There was a parliament in Scotland and a Parliament in England….Then a Treaty was signed and a United kingdom parliament convened…

      Be very careful my friend from where you get your History,because almost everything that’s written won’t tell a tale that doesn’t fit the UK narrative.

      Remember…. They can Magna Fecking Carter all they like,but nothing takes away from the fact that there was a Treaty and then there was a UK Parliament that the Treaty spoke of,a parliament that didn’t exist before….. And the Parliament it describes that began after.

      Westminster never acknowledge this,but they also never challenge it… They work around it…
      Their judiciary also can’t square the circle and mainly move not to answer the question.
      So as far as I can see…. We in Scotland have never tested all this in a Court… But why would we need to now..
      Westminster is never going to let this get to a Court.
      There may be cases around it, but not one that will answer it!
      The main reason,our magic bullet, is the actual Crown..
      Challenge auld Lizzie Windsors right’s,demand she does her job and protects Scotland,make it clear she can be fired!!
      Let it be known that we might not approve of her heir. They’ll back off,to preserve their Crown in Parliament and keep their English subjects on board!
      Why am I sure they will opt for their Crown and Parliamentary system?… Brexit

    281. Kangaroo says:

      Brexit Withdrawal Agreement brought to you by Angela Merkle and Theresa May

      https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-11/subversive-statecraft-scandal-exposes-bombshell-german-designed-brexit

      Make of it what you will.

    282. yesindyref2 says:

      @Geeo
      Is THAT what it’s all about! Thanks for pointing it out, I just presumed it was for after a YES vote – and didn’t bother with it.

      Cool move:

      Recommendation has been made, for Scotland’s Parliament to vote to approve The Constitution and Corpus of Law, prior to the UK Brexit deadline of 29th March 2019. Specifically, this is recommended in the first instance, to protect all of the legal powers of Scotland’s Parliament.

    283. yesindyref2 says:

      @Geeo
      Back as far as 2012 probably before, there was a poster in NNS going on about a constitution, to disapproval from others. Name Alex S but not that one! He then appeared in the Herald doing the same, I kind of respected his persistence and replied basically that we’d need Independence because otherwise our Constitution wouldn’t really be valid, or couldn’t contain what it needed.

      Then I got to thinking, and realised that a Consitution, approved by a majority of Scotland in a Referendum, was another way to Independence. I guess some other poeple have the same idea. I also think the UKSC have no chance of striking it down, from the Parliament stage if it does that, through the referendum, and – mmmm, delicious, afterwards if approved.

      Forgot all about that till your comment.

    284. Petra says:

      Sitting on the fence man, Corbyn, trying to keep everyone onside.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-vote-leave-second-brexit-referendum-a8826776.html

      ……………..

      @ Liz at 4:50am …… “Challenge Auld Lizzie.”

      Good post Liz. The most telling thing of all, that the ToU is still active, is the fact that we don’t have a written Constitution. Three hundred years and they haven’t managed to do so. Put something together. Different legal systems and our ability to challenge auld Lizzie. They try to tell us that the Scots are stupid. Looks as though our ancestors from the 14th century, at least, until the 18th were on the ball and could see them for what they are: a bunch of lying, dishonest snakes .. then as now. We’ve got a lot to thank them for.

    285. Kangaroo says:

      The new Constitution looks good.

      One small step for a Scot, one giant leap for Scotland.

    286. manandboy says:

      The Good Law Project back in court over the £435,000 donation to the DUP

      https://mailchi.mp/03943223c9c7/the-good-law-project-back-in-court-over-the-435000-donation-to-the-dup?e=ef800e946a

      And, on medical shortages, possibly of immediate interest to many Wingers, hence the statement in full:

      Our judicial review over ‘No Deal’ Brexit medical shortages

      In our last newsletter, we told you that we had issued formal proceedings against the Government over its regulation enabling “Serious Shortage Protocols” (SSPs) that allow pharmacists – not doctors – to reduce amounts of medicine or prescribe different medicines if we have No Deal. We have now published, alongside our pleadings and witness statements, the Government’s response.

      Three points leap out from that response. First, the Government now agrees SSPs are “designed to enable the Secretary of State… to address serious drug shortages… in the event of a no deal Brexit” – so the Government now admits that “serious drug shortages” are a real possibility if we have no deal.

      Second, the Government says there is no public interest in challenging the lawfulness of SSPs because they are necessary to protect the public. This is an extraordinary response to an allegation that a measure is unlawful. It amounts to a denial that there is an overarching public interest in Government acting in accordance with the law. But the necessity for Government to do so is the very essence of what the rule of law means.

      Third, the Government’s response assumes that if its “thoroughly important legislative measure” to protect public health is struck down it would nevertheless continue with a No Deal Brexit. This is what a Government in the grips of madness sounds like. We believe the time is right for MPs must stage an intervention.

    287. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, it’s begininng to look that while to some of us the cards have had their spots shuffled off them, they’ve actually been getting carefully stacked – and not by the UK Gov either. Nor of course the ScotGov, perish the thought! Would they do such a thing? But by some close by.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17507623.downing-street-must-address-the-misappropriation-of-oil-revenues/

      It’s getting quite exciting. Oh well, off to bed, perchance to dream.

    288. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, a passing thought. Perhaps the Independence negotiations will be a white flagt from UK Gov “We surrender, have mercy”. Which of course we will [1] as we all want to be good neighbours.

      [1] To some extent. They can keep the carriers and the nukes 🙂

      I’ll shut up now.

    289. Nana says:

      The SNP has called for the Scotland Office to be abolished after it emerged the cost of communications staff has risen more than sixfold in a decade.
      http://archive.is/FmmZJ

      Remember to check out the rest of Prof john’s articles
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/03/17/bbc-scotland-say-the-english-were-to-blame-in-2014-too/

      Indyref two.
      Constitution.
      Brexit.
      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/257740088441033/

      https://theorkneynews.scot/2019/03/17/the-future-for-scotlands-fisheries/

    290. Nana says:

      https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/03/16/if-scotland-wants-a-green-new-deal-and-a-sustainable-future-it-has-to-reject-the-growth-commission/

      Would the UK be obliged to hold European Parliament elections if it’s a Member State on May 23rd?
      http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/03/of-extension-of-uk-membership-and-basic.html

      Well done, Brexit ultras – the EU has never had more power over Britain
      http://archive.is/QQ32B

      Practising barrister,, cross-bench peer (Lord Anderson of Ipswich KBE QC). says
      If the PM’s deal goes through at MV3, the WA Bill would still of course have to be passed. Assume the PM request is granted and she has until end June for that purpose. /1
      https://twitter.com/bricksilk/status/1106966681027514369

    291. Golfnut says:

      @ yesindyref2.

      IMO the SP destroyed its own credibility as the go to arbiter on Scottish Constitutional issues. Plunking their fat backsides on their hands long enough for the HOL to put forward an ammendment to the Withdrawal Bill allowing Westminster to negate the Continuity Bill was Political, not judicial.

      However, they and the UK gov confirmed by their actions that Westminster require permission to act legally. Also, worth noting that the inclusion of the Henry the VIII laws were more about protecting the crown rather than by passing Parliament.

    292. Nana says:

      #BBCWorldThisWeekend: #UK constitution is collapsing under weight of #Brexit;
      Thread
      https://twitter.com/LVIaLondres/status/1107354678772355075

      https://welfareweekly.com/universal-credit-split-payments-given-to-only-20-claimants/

      Sir Martin Donnelly from the department for intl trade says

      “Brexit is like giving up a three-course meal… for the promise of a packet of crisps in the future.”
      Warning, Nick the liar robinson doing the interviewing
      https://twitter.com/ImIncorrigible/status/1107315105237254147

      https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-s-most-disturbing-aspect-is-the-casual-adoption-of-extremist-views-1.3829206

    293. Nana says:

      Read this and consider what could happen if we don’t vote for independence
      https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/03/14/nicola-bennett-us-healthcare-system-callous-financially-menacing-force/

      https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/102579/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-could-vote-leave-eu-second-brexit

      Theresa May’s revised offer to the DUP involves making the whole of the UK a rule-taker, required to follow every change in the EU’s laws, but without a say in any of them. Exactly the opposite of “taking back control”, because we’ll have much less than we do now. Thanks, Brexit!
      https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1107364655549333510

      https://lawyersforbritain.org/legal-advice-no-changes-to-the-backstop-lock-in

    294. manandboy says:

      Ladies and gentlemen, if your car was stolen and trashed by thieves, you would have little hesitation in buying a new one.
      Well the UK we once knew has been effectively stolen and trashed, and is now irrecoverable. It is time to get a new model. In fact, it’s time for Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England to get their own car. There’s no need for us all to depend on the one vehicle, as at present, you know, the one which England insists on driving all the time, as if they owned it.

      England has a need to have colonies. That’s their problem. But they don’t own us. It is time that we put a stop to England bossing Scotland, Wales and NI about. It’s time to get our own cars.

      It is time. It is the right time. The UK is badly broken. It can’t be fixed. The time is now.

    295. Ken500 says:

      If anything happened to Wings. Another ‘Wings’will rise from the ashes. A phenoix will arise. Flying like Wings over Scotland, Look how strong people have been in the Independence cause/fight. Stronger than ever since 1928 (universal Suffrage) and before. It is now almost in touching distance and has never been closer. Right will win over might. It always does to achieve justice denied.

      Cameron, Clegg and Brown have gone. The one’s who made the malicious, lying Vow. They caused austerity and lied and lied and lied. They were elected to protect NHS and Education, those in poverty, They cut funds for them all, They tried to destroy the world. They caused unnecessary poverty, hardship and death worldwide.

      These people are gone but the Independence cause continues on to victory. It has never been stronger and continues to grow. With an SNP Scottish Gov and good, smart people supporting it. Changing Scotland for the better like never before. Despite unionist and others poor efforts. The absolute shambles the Tory unionists and the rest are causing. What a complete and utter mess. They are destroying people’s lives. Making people stressed, worried and anxious. Unable to sleep. A cause for anxiety and sickness.

      Wings et al just continues on. No one can defeat it. Thank goodness for people like Rev Stu, Nana etc. All the informative contributors.. Too many too mention. Thank goodness for the internet. Out doing the lying Press and their handlers. The corrupt, criminals unionists at Westminster will not get away with it. Most of them should be in jail. Their corruption holds no bounds. Wings or the equivalent will continue on.

      Imagine condescending May implying Nicola did not ‘understand’ her plan. Neither does anyone else. Many would say what ‘plan? The complete and utter shambles. Nicola et al understood her ‘plan’ too well complete chaos. A complete and utter shambles. A didgraceful mess of ignorance, arrogance, and criminality. The Westminster unionists are not fit to govern.

      Hiw long can May continue on? Corbyn is useless. Part of the problem and muddled chaos. They are destroying their own Parties. Not before time. The LibDems are once again being shown up for the liars, that they are, covering up and facilitating the abuse of children. Yet harping on about mental health. They cause it, Autherity has caused a rise in mental health problems and death. Totally unneccessary. The unionist facilitate it. Covering up the abuse of children and using it for blackmail. The have no shame. Shambolic.

      Thatcher when told about child abuse before her eyes is reported to have said ‘Boys will be boys’. Absolutely appalling dereliction of duty. She should have been prosecuted. Look at Saville. Given a knighthood. In the UK criminals who break the Law are given knighthoods to cover up. Criminality is covered up. The public purse is defrauded. It is an utter scandal.

      Children were reported to have been being abused at the Tory Conference Hotel that the IRA bombed. Thatcher survived on for a while. Before her own Party got rid of her. Went away greeting after all the trouble and cruelty she had caused.

    296. Golfnut says:

      @ Cameron and Liz G.

      The fact that Parliament is constrained in its daily legislative process by the Articles of the Treaty of Union, not the Acts of Union, particularly regarding Scots law demonstrates the Treaty is still live and indeed was the founding and governing document in the creation of the United Kingdom.

    297. Nana says:

      Peatworrier says in response to the article in the Scotsmand
      Respectfully agree entirely with @AileenMcHarg on contested legality of #indyref2: “Quite a lot of people are saying it’s definitely unlawful. I think those people are overstating their case.”
      https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier/status/1107272608284844033

      article archived here
      http://archive.is/WOEAg

      A Wilson says
      I was involved in private polling for a large corporation based near LA in 2014. Sample size 250k across socioeconomic scale from towns across Scotland. The Yes lead was in double figures.
      https://twitter.com/awpersonal/status/1107181674910175232

      Brexit: uncharted territory
      http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87179

      The British government has contributed to the recent visible surge in terrorist attacks against Muslims around the world by fueling Islamophobia almost on a daily basis, a senior political analyst from London says.
      https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/03/17/591291/UK-government-media-Islamophobic-environment-interview

    298. yesindyref2 says:

      @Golfnut
      The SG WON the UKSC case in the only way that actually mattered – the Continuity Bill was legal at the time it was passed in Holyrood. Nothing else is of consequence.

    299. manandboy says:

      This is the timetable for the EU Administrators today. The reason for posting is to help us in Scotland to further appreciate the fact that Westminster is not the centre of the Universe.
      It might be the centre of Theresa May’s grubby, greedy, immigrant-hating, supremacist Tory world, but that is as far as it goes. Europe is far, far bigger than the now shabby little England, far, far more important, and what’s more, far far better too.

      Today’s Agenda
      All times CET.

      8 a.m. EU foreign affairs ministers meet in Brussels to discuss relations with China, situation in Moldova, Yemen; China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi is in Brussels, meets with EU counterparts as well as with EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker

      10 a.m. EU agriculture ministers meet in Brussels

      12 p.m. EU Council President Donald Tusk meets German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin; Tusk then meets French President Emmanuel Macron in Paris at 4:15 p.m.

      4:30 p.m. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg speaks at German Marshall Fund event

      ECB’s Peter Praet speaks in Brussels

      EU financial services chief Valdis Dombrovskis in Berlin, meets Finance Minister Olaf Scholz, Economy Minister Peter Altmaier

      EU Climate Commissioner Miguel Arias Canete gives a keynote speech at the Clean Energy Industrial Forum in Brussels

      EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager in Sweden, gives a keynote speech at the “Anna Lindh Lecture” at the University of Lund

    300. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ken500
      I guess another Wings would arise. But the Rev is irreplaceable, as this tweet from him proves “No it isn’t you fucking idiot.”. Succinct, accurate and to the point.

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1107427906521829376

    301. Abulhaq says:

      @Manandboy 07h45
      Time to end it, and if our elected politicians fail to do so?
      A question all peoples need to ask themselves about the efficacy of the political class.
      Palestinians are often mentioned on here. We should be thankful we are not stuck with political élites who retain power by exploiting the Israel-Arab ‘conflict’ rather than resolving it.
      There is not much Arab street support for the Palestinian situation nowadays. People are bored with it.
      We must not get to a situation when we all become weary of the Scottish independence struggle.
      Our politicians must never be allowed to ‘just get on with it’ unsupervised.

    302. Ken500 says:

      The Labour Party is a disgrace. Jackie Walker should have been protected. An agent from the Israeli Embassy is illegally paying Labour Party members monies to make false scusation. Illegally bribing them. A criminal offence. Against the Representation of the People’s Act.

      Apartheid States never survive. They destroy themselves. Netanyahu is a crook. Being charged with criminal offences. Embezzling and defrauding public monies. Israeli is supported with £Billions of US monies and arms without which it would not survive. The US cannot afford it. There are already questions being asked and raised in the US. If the US did not fund Israel criminal activities. Breaking every International Law. A solution would be found. For the Palestinians to live in peace on their land. Instead of being displaced and terrorised.

    303. Ken500 says:

      Another Winfs would arise. Including Rev Stu.

    304. manandboy says:

      THIS IS OFFICIALLY NOT IMPORTANT so only read it if you’ve nothing else to do. As if.

      One of the most important and ongoing propaganda campaigns by the British government for nearly the past 50 years, has been to suppress awareness of the enormous extent of, and the incredible value of, the Scottish Oil & Gas Industry.
      Such has been the success of the brainwashing, that today in Scotland hardly anyone gives it a thought.
      The revenues from 1.07 million barrels of oil every day flow into Westminster. Not a penny stays in Scotland.

      Then there’s the gas. But let’s not go there. Its painful.

      But plz don’t tell anybody that I told ye. It’s supposed to be kept quiet.

      https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2011/03/16182005/70

      Scotland’s Marine Atlas: Information for The National Marine Plan

      OIL, GAS, PIPELINES AND GAS Storage. What, why and where?

    305. Nana says:

      What Andy says
      https://twitter.com/HomeopathicPM/status/1107557458271182850

      Britain’s Brexit crisis is rooted in the power of our public schools
      http://archive.is/Mucpg

      Brexit spurs biggest cut in UK business investment in 10 years
      http://archive.is/sMlwC

      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190316-war-crime-investigators-will-be-barred-from-entering-us/

      One lot of links in moderation, I’m sure they will appear later.

    306. Abulhaq says:

      @Ken500 08h34
      Plainly you have never met a Palestinian….views on the unchecked systemic corruption within the Hamas and Fatah administrations are unprintable. At least the Israelis go after the villains. The Arabophone countries are full of Palestinian Arabs who would not return home even if a state were established. They don’t trust the self-serving establishments. Unfortunately, not an uncommon problem in the Near East and the Maghrib!
      Scotland is lucky, so far, but still keep an eye on those politicians!

    307. Dorothy Devine says:

      So those Palestinian kids playing on the beach were villains were they ?

      There are many examples from which one side does not emerge well .

      Many in the UK do not trust the ‘self serving establishment’ and view the ‘ systemic corruption’ with a jaundiced eye.

      Planks and splinters.

    308. manandboy says:

      Abulhaq. Yep, the Unionist politicians in particular are a real problem. They are subject to the temptations of easy money, a very comfortable lifestyle, a seat on the Unionist Gravy Train for life, with the result that many of them are corrupted.
      And all they have to do is forget who voted for them, and concentrate on playing the Westminster game, which is to preserve at all costs the British Establishment.

      Between elections, the fools, sorry, the voters, don’t count.

      As for supervising the politicians, there is a very strong tradition here in Scotland at least, nurtured mainly by the Labour Party, to forget about politics and just leave it completely to the politicos. Even today, after the turmoil of the last 7 years, political illiteracy and indifference remains widespread, except when an election occurs. And turnout is invariably not what it could be. So the politicians may well think ‘they don’t care’, so I’ll do what I want – and make a fortune at the same time.

      Yet things are without a doubt changing for the better.

    309. Breeks says:

      Don’t want to be the Grinch, (it’s a dirty job but somebody’s gotta do it), but the Constitution being approved by Holyrood smacks of the right dominos toppling but in the wrong order… Scotland’s Sovereignty does not require Holyrood’s ratification. It’s 700 years old and doesn’t actually require Holyrood at all… but let’s not go there. It would seem we are still squandering finite resource wrestling with the Constitutional principle of sovereignty. Sigh…

      However, I am not blind to the real politic that any Constitutional motion which doesn’t carry some stamp of democratic approval, whether it’s technically superfluous or not, will be perceived by many “modern” observers as flawed and open to dispute. Look at May, Trump, Corbyn, Netanyahu, Blair, Bush,… how could we sleep at night without the approval of democratic governments eh?

      So, even if the exercise is technically just box ticking, I’ll concede it is relevant box ticking, so let’s not get bogged down in Constitutional pedantic hair splitting. Shut your face Grinch. Your objection is noted, but we’re gonna do it anyway.

      I am assuming therefor that a “fresh” democratic ratification of Scotland’s Sovereign principle is designed to give impetus to an “altered” Constitutional reality which will, I hope and expect, do the rounds of EU and UN institutions, with tacit expectations of observance and recognition. Thus, the principle of Scotland’s popular sovereignty will be established and renewed, and the Gauntlet thrown down to any and all “would-be” challengers to overthrow Scottish Sovereignty. (That means you Westminster).

      Ok, I’m officially good with this. The Grinch says the Holyrood route seems an unnecessary detour, but perhaps the relevant factor is that Holyrood is not so much crowning itself as our Sovereign champion, but rather the reverse, the unnecessary detour bestows Sovereign entitlement and relevant legitimacy upon our servant, Holyrood. In a sense, Holyrood becomes the ratified spokesperson for our Constitutional Sovereignty…. Our Sovereignty is assuming command of our Holyrood. Mmmm,ye,no,mmm,hmm,yebut,ach…. well,…kinda. Gonna quote the great sage Whitney Houston here… “lt’s not right, but it’s ok”.

      Maybe I touched on something… Scotland’s Government “renewing its vows” with Scotland’s Sovereignty… Yup. That can work.

      When the dust settles, it is the essential binary principle that matters. Let’s agree perhaps to describe the Holyrood Approval exercise as “symbolic”, because sometimes there’s a time and a place for a little symbolic theatre to hit the sweet spot. The Grinch is smiling having said his piece and delivered his pedantic grumble.

      Ok. Let’s do this…

    310. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Good catch on the Irish Times piece Nana and worth a read. Also? Yeah. What Andy said.

      If nothing else, folk are getting a front row view of what passes for politicians and politics in the UK. Austerity ideology and Brexit have fair brought out all the skittery critters tbs.

    311. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      “skittery critters”

      Aye they sure are 🙂

    312. Breeks says:


      Abulhaq says:
      18 March, 2019 at 8:54 am
      @Ken500 08h34
      …. At least the Israelis go after the villains….

      Considering the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and the West using it’s “influence” for decades to prop up one radical Wahhabi nutcase after another who could be relied upon to suppress and disrupt Islamic fundamentalism and frustrate the establishment of an oil rich Arab superstate, I think there are many “dirty” chickens which have yet to come to roost before we have clarity about who the villains in the Middle East are.

      Then look at the media, and the way it distances itself from the Far Right Extremist murdering Muslims at prayer. Blame the Internet! Shut down free speech! Killing innocent Muslims with assault rifles is disgusting. Kill them with drones and smart bombs is foreign policy.

      Don’t take my word for it, I’m sure the BBC will have somebody actually there on the ground who can explain everything and help me identify the real villains. Funny how they’re always the ones in the crosshairs.

    313. dom says:

      The Brexit fiasco rumbles on.

      There will be a vote tomorrow,,,then again,,,there may not be a vote tomorrow.

      Is anybody surprised anymore???

    314. Black Donald says:

      I’m sure it’s covered, but I think it is important to include how the BBC misrepresent and mislead in WBB2. Some examples along the lines of ThoughtcontrolScotland.com.

      Also something aimed at the Rangers / Loyalist folks. How divide and rule has been used in the past. The battle of Dunbar. The side they were actually fighting for in the Battle of the Boyne. How they are being played again today. Ruth “No Surrender” Davidson, Murdo “Queen’s Eleven” Fraser and Prof Tompkins, in his Union Jack suit, the lifelong Rangers fan from Dorset!

      Rangers fans are “Proudly Scottish”, and a few might be converted.

      Alas, I know from personal experience they are a very hard nut to crack. They are indeed “Fiercely British”. Fiercely British (second class) more like.

      Anyway, I spent about an hour trying to convert my ‘one person’. McCrone (never heard of McCrone), vast oil wealth (worthless, oil price collapsed), risk to the health service (SNP bad), our sovereign land, your kid’s land, better government (SNP bad) etc.

      “You’ll never win, you’ll never convince the Protestants. I voted Conservative.” How could you vote Conservative? I said. You’ve got kids. “The Conservatives are fur the Protestants”. Dear, dear.

      Great guy apart from that.

    315. Golfnut says:

      @ yesindyref2
      ‘ nothing else of consequence ‘

      I beg to differ.
      The Continuity Bill was legal from the start, the UK gov were well aware of this even before the legislation was put forward. The challenge to its legality was no more than a device used by the Government to introduce through the HOL amendments which negated the force of the Scottish Bill. The ludicrous inclusion of the Rape Clause did indeed confirm that Westminster requires consent.

    316. Iain mhor says:

      The WBB was indeed a game changer. As to distribution, its scarcity led to its popularity and demand. Unintentional but well worn marketing tactic. Unfortunately, there weren’t enough to supply when demand was peaking.
      As for how to distribute, postal is not a good idea IMO. The “street” demand was the most popular, not unsolicited mail in my experience.

      As for who to distribute to (and this begins to cover democracy and party politics) it must be emphasised that the Indyref returned vastly more numbers than any election for party politics. In other words non-voters.
      Easy to confirm and to understand that within ‘party political voters, the YES & NO sides have fewer ‘core’ supporters than we are led to believe. Further, it is NO who have fewer core voters than YES. The non-voters were approx 30% of the Indyref vote. 20% went to NO, 10% to YES. Ergo there are fewer NO party political voters than YES.

      The point of ‘non-voters’ holding the keys to Scotland’s future is yet another demonstration of the democratic deficits within the UK setup and part of the great kiddy-on. There are also as many relative, enfranchised, non-voters in England as Scotland and the woefully low numbers returning “elected governments” leads the lie of any great sovereign right to rule a people. As for the other great kiddy-on – the State of the UK – well it exists as opinion and common acceptance only.

      The question of Kingdoms, Treaties and Unions has never been resolved; whether two Kingdoms still exist, neither exist, or one was extinguished and one remained to become Great Britain & subsequently what we know as the UK.
      It is all very well to ‘categorically state’ the actual position of the UK – yet, if it was so categorically true and easily resolved, why has it never been ‘put to the proof’? A great “Sovereign Nation”, for whom such a great question and the ensuing and vexing difficulties arising and continuing to to plague it, has never done so. The “question” has never been put to the proof and therefore any opinion remains unproven – however vehemently and adamantly any position is stated.

      There is though potential resolution and that is where the real democracy lies, when all the enfranchised speak and not a diddy wee rump.
      Bear in mind democracy and suffrage in the UK is a very young thing and still growing. Only in my lifetime was the Representation of the Peoples Act 1969 passed, when 18yr olds were given a vote. In Scotland only in 2014 did 16-17yr olds get the vote and only in the last four years has that been extended to all elections in Scotland and not in England. Only in the last four years have these Scottish adults, as so many are, known “democracy”. Think on it.
      Never forget the great kiddy-on, perpetuated for generations, the self styled democratic sovereign goverment of the United Kingdom etcetera. Never lose understanding of who really holds power.

    317. Cubby says:

      Cynical Highlander@11.51pm

      Spot on Cynical Highlander

      Absolutely the correct attitude to the BBC and all the MSM that has pumped a lot of lies and propaganda into Scotland to enable their bosses to loot Scotlands wealth. If you don’t have that attitude you have still got too much of the cringe in you. If someone is stealing from you – How do you feel.

      Fireproofjim – big deal – the programme was reasonably fair to Wings and the WBB. So what – it’s all part of trying to convince mugs that they are not so bad after all. The best propagandists know when to ease up a little. The media is the reason Scotland is not independent. Why sound as if you want their approval. PS you watched a repeat. It was broadcast on Tuesday and was commented on Wings then.

      Blair Jenkins had the opportunity to tell the truth re the BBC yesterday on Sunday Politics Scotland and he said instead the BBC is not institutionally biased – bloody unbelievable. This guy ran the Yes campaign!!!!!

    318. BJ says:

      On the way to the shredder with the latest Ruth Davidson’s lying, flying load of mince from one of her Unionist clowns, I noticed he is promising better broadband for Scotland and is blaming the Scottish Government for non delivery of this service.

      Donald Cameron MSP, if you told me the tide was going out in Oban I would go and look out the window with no great expectation that it’s true

    319. Capella says:

      In the BBC R4 Sunday four-part series on the union, Misha Glennie finally got round to Scotland. He managed to find a vox pop who felt both Scottish and British. Tom Devine and Fiona Watson reminded us all that we were complicit in the slave trade. Misha informed us that in 1707 the Scottish Parliament transferred sovereignty to Westminster. No mention of the English parliament doing any such thing.

      So a few more myths are broadcast into the ether to mislead and confuse.
      * there’s no appetite for indyref2
      * we are just as greedy and venal as Westminster
      * we are not sovereign

      That’s why the WBB is vital. We have very few means to dispel the myths.

    320. Cubby says:

      Capella@11.10am

      The whole of the UK is built on recycled lies pumped out by the media and then recycled as the truth by others. The UK – built on subjugation of other countries, fraud and lies.

      Latest lies – Rees – Mogg says most people in the UK want to leave the EU on 29/3/19 on a no deal basis. There is no evdence for this assertion but the media just pump it out.

      All the Britnats have left is lies and more lies.

    321. galamcennalath says:

      BJ says:

      he is promising better broadband for Scotland and is blaming the Scottish Government for non delivery of this service

      BritNats do that a lot. They use poor understanding of devolved versus reserved issues among voters as an opportunity to lie to them.

      It’s a dismal low standard of campaigning when you have to rely on deceit and ‘taking people for a ride’.

      The reason why so many folk in Scotland are so poorly informed is because they rely on the msm for their world view. The msm have a BritNat bias, so they facilitate both ignorance and lies.

      Fortunately, with alternative online sources and word of mouth, the BritNat politicking model is unsustainable. Once eyes and ears have opened, they can’t be unopened.

    322. Cubby says:

      Iain Mhor@10.17am

      The existence of the moon has never been proven to my knowledge in a court of law. Does that mean it may not exist in your opinion.

    323. manandboy says:

      There is a huge broadcasting infrastructure across Scotland encompassing TV, radio, and print. And all of it serves the English Establishment, and is used daily and extensively to set the agenda for what Scots will think, and, what they will think about.
      While Scotland has no independent broadcast ability of its own.
      It’s time we had a level playing field in broadcasting. Or do we just continue to doff our caps to Westminster and curtsy as our democratic rights are disabled in this way. In broadcasting ability, what we have is like Arsenal coming to Hampden to play a Scotland wheelchair team.

      If Pacific Quay ran on batteries, I’d nick ’em.

    324. Capella says:

      The link to ukconstitutionallaw.org that yesindyref2 posted upthread is an interesting read, specially a comment from Peter Thompson. Unfortunately, there is no means of linking to one comment so I’ll post it below. apologies for length:

      I understood that in McCormack vs the Lord Advocate (1953) the Lord Advocate conceded the legal and constitutional point that the people of Scotland remain sovereign and that the taking up of solely the norms of a parliamentary democracy was at odds with the purpose of the 1707 Treaty of Union and the constitutional reality that Scotland is a representative democracy.

      As the 1689 Claim of Right remains law and Lord Cooper stated that the independence of Scots Law was protected for all time by the 1707 Treaty of Union, the assertion of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland is at odds with the UK constitutional view as the people of Scotland’s sovereignty has never been suceded or lent in any lawful manner to the UK Parliament at Westminster. The Scottish Grand Committee was, after all, a fudge to get round this inconvenience in law and constitutional practice – much as has Mr Blair’s back of a fag packet, Supreme Court.

      In the recent judgement by the Supreme Court in the case of AXA and others vs the Scottish Government one of the reasons the case was thrown out was because the Act of the Scottish Parliament contested by Axa and others reflected the will of the people of Scotland as expressed by the Scottish Parliament. The judges avoided the use of the term ‘the sovereign people of Scotland’ explicitly but if they were not respecting the will of the sovereign people of Scotland why come to this decision?

      That then brings me onto the elephant in the room – the Scottish Parliament and the 1998 Scotland Act.

      In July 1999 the temporarily suspended session of the Scottish Parliament of March 1707 was resumed. This was not contested by Westminster in any shape or manner. Given the parliament of March 1707 held on behalf of the sovereign people of Scotland the right to represent their sovereignty under Scottish constitutional law and practice then in Scots Law the resumption of that parliamentary session in July 1999 must mean the people of Scotland’s sovereignty once again lies in the Scottish Parliament. A legal and constitutional reality the Supreme Court gave the nod to in AXA and Others vs the Scottish Government. In other words the Scottish Parliament represents the sovereign will of the people of Scotland. This being the reality how can either section 5 or 30 of the 1999 Scotland Act be enforcable as the UK parliament at Westminster is laying claims and powers over Scottish sovereignty they neither have claim over nor right to.

      Further it could be argued that any Scottish official or politician who does agree to give over the people of Scotland’s sovereignty to Westminster is acting treasonably in the eyes of Scots Law and constitutional practice as they will be in breach of the provisions of the Declaration of Arbroath entrenched in Scots Law by the parliament of 1328, reasserted in the 1689 Claim of Right with respect to the people of Scotland being sovereign.

      All this before considering the right to self determination which is core to the UN Treaty of Human Rights of which the UK is a signator, the Helsinki Accord and the Treaty of Vienna all which drive a coach and horses through the position taken by the UK Parliament at Westminster’s legal position.

      https://tinyurl.com/y3tec6nq

    325. Dr Jim says:

      Apparently we don’t understand all the technicalities of the UK now and the word from Yoonland is that actually Scotland doesn’t exist at all and that they just wanted to keep us happy by saying we had an identity …..but we don’t! we were subsumed! we are forever *British*

      They say!

      I say, say it to me, see what happens

      And if any of that garbage were true why did David Cameron agree to the 2014 referendum….sorry what? can’t hear you

    326. Bill Glen says:

      We can all make our own Conclusions as to Why the Polls changed, But one we can all agree on, The Wee Blue book was A Leading light of Information that Helped sway many Voters, And the Next edition will add confirmation to the truths it told, Along with the Confirmed lies of the vow And other promises made by the Unionist parties since 2014,, Keep up the good work Rev 🙂

    327. Golfnut says:

      @ Capella

      My thoughts exactly.

      Further to this, I would add that the Withdrawal Bill was clearly at odds with Scots Constitutional law when Westminster forced the Monarch to sign the Withdrawal Bill. This was against the express will of the people Scotland, their Parliament and a majority of Scots MP’s.

    328. chicmac says:

      NHS Free at the point of need, not fee at the point of greed.

    329. Effijy says:

      Tory H

    330. galamcennalath says:

      Much MSM chatter about May only calling Vote No3 if she believes she can win it.

      Thursday, the EU have a meeting which is probably the last chance to have an extension agreed.

      The EU won’t give an extension simply to allow the continued bun fight. They need a reason. If May’s ‘deal’ passes then a short technical extension to get everything formally agreed seem likely.

      In the absence of WM passing the ‘deal’, May will need to make a significant change of direction to make the case for an extension.

      Or, it’s a crash and burn ‘no deal’ exit next week!

    331. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Of course I know what the Magna Carter is, are you trying to be funny? We might both see the world from a realist perspective, British constitutional law, not so much.

    332. Breeks says:


      Capella says:
      18 March, 2019 at 11:55 am
      The link to ukconstitutionallaw.org that yesindyref2 posted upthread is an interesting read, specially a comment from Peter Thompson. Unfortunately, there is no means of linking to one comment so I’ll post it below. apologies for length….

      These were posted back in 2014… A bit lengthy and heavy going in places, but well worth the read…

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspx#.XI-MRBqnyhA

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Preview/1014185.aspx#.XI-M7BqnyhD

      When we have these opinions on record, and essentially lost because nobody seems to act on them, it makes me wonder what is wrong with us, what inadequacy do we suffer from which prevents us putting Constitutional theory into Constitutional practice?

      If we know the Union lacks competence in law, then why do we tolerate the inequity and falsehood rather than stand firm on our Constitutional rights in law?

      Realistic question… why doesn’t Scotland have a Ministerial appointment for its own Constitutional Watchdog ready to savage the Union and Westminster “Government” for every unconstitutional indiscretion it tries to get away with?

      If that has traditionally been the roll of Scottish MP’s at Westminster, then I feel bound to say there are 3 centuries of dismal failure to account for. I say “account for” with care, since perhaps there were innumerable attempts made to protect Scotland that were subverted and defeated, but there must also be decades of indolent compliance. I’m looking at you Labour Party in particular… At what point did Scotland’s voice in Westminster begin to operate as the British Establishments voice in Scotland and the conduit for all manner of unconstitutional injustice and perfidy?

      Time for change I think. Time for Rip Van Scotland to wake up and smell the coffee…

    333. Effijy says:

      Tory Chancellor Hammond announced on TV this morning that with the new Budget he would need to look at topping up the funding for Northern Ireland???

      The DUP are on route to have siphoned off £1 Billion in an energy
      subsidies that has their counterparts burning pellets to heat empty warehouse as the more they burn the more money it makes them.

      Next another £1 Billion for voting with the Tories to keep them in power,

      Next their nice wee historical Bank Building that burned down
      is to get a special grant from London to rebuild it.
      The Mackintosh Building to get Zero as its in Scotland.

      Now it looks like another nice wee corrupt back hander to the
      political arm of the provinces terrorist organisation.

      Perhaps Westminster could slice off a couple of Scottish Oil Fields and transfer them to the DUP. Maybe the Queen could send then her crown jewels to attract more tourism.

      The Titanic has hit the ice berg and these B******* are handing out the contents of the ship’s safe.

      SOS- Call for Scotland’s Life Boat!

    334. defo says:

      Re WWB2 pull out supplement covering the lies, dark money, state broadcaster bias…
      Can I suggest calling it ’50 shades of Tory’
      —————-
      When confronted with the environmental issues around oil and indy by potential good guys, a simple “do you think any country in the World would turn up its nose, and what will happen to it if we retain Westmidden rule?” should do the trick.

    335. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – I think the main problem was the NO vote in 2014. Of course the referendum was flawed and should have been declared null and void because of numerous breaches of rules (funding, purdah period, postal votes, broken promises etc).

      So the SNP has to be clear that the Scottish people actually want independence. Evidence is required such as votes in Holyrood, Westminster and LA elections. Check. Polling results. Check but dependent on the outcome of BREXIT.

      if your case rests on the sovereignty of the Scottish people than you are bound to respect that.

    336. Breeks says:

      And just to repeat…

      I don’t believe the EU will agree to extend Article 50.

      Apply the principle of Occam’s razor…
      If Brexit is happening, then do it. No change of mind required, no extension of time required.
      If the UK decides it wants to stay in the EU, up until 29th, it can revoke Article 50 unilaterally all by itself and Brexit disappears. No extension of time is required. Do it.
      If the UK wants to leave, but then have 2 years transitional grace to reconsider, let it leave, and apply to rejoin in two years hence once the reconsideration period is done. No extension of time is required. Do it.

      The resolution of Brexit has nothing to do with extensions of time, but as the EU states repeatedly, progress demands the end of the UK’s indecision. … for which no extension of time is required. If the UK cannot decide, the decision will be taken out of its hands. No extension of time is warranted.

      March 29th it is…. We cannot afford to believe otherwise. There is no snooze button.

    337. Cubby says:

      The BBC’s Pickle Nick By Wee Ginger Dug. I recommend a read of this by anyone who still thinks the BBC might not be as biased as some make out.

      It just shows how strong the UK media conditioning is that some people still think the BBC is not institutionally biased against the Scotgov, SNP, Scottish independence and Scotland and its people. How much evidence do these people need. Yes Blair Jenkins that’s you.

    338. Capella says:

      I should have added media manipulation in deceiving the voting public during indyref1, as Alan Little has admitted in today’s National.

      Stuffing panels with three unionists to one independence supporter should have been illegal. Sneaking in actresses and activists in QT audiences as if the were ordinary members of the public should have been illegal. Reporting lies from the right wing tabloid press as if it was gospel truth ditto. Inviting unionist academics, think tank members and “experts” to present a flawed case should have been illegal.

      Who knows what the Integrity Initiative and Cambridge Analytica got up to in their HQ in a derelict Scottish mill.

      None of these tactics was monitored by the electoral commission or anyone else, other than Stu and other online activists.

      For that reason, we need to ensure that an organisation such as the OSCE is engaged from the start of any future referendum. We need a rule book and someone to enforce the rules.

    339. Breeks says:

      @Capella…

      Depends. Isn’t a No vote just as sovereign as a Yes vote? It’s the chosen will of the sovereign people.

      When both sides of the coin are “heads”, what purpose does tossing the coin actually serve?

      When both options in a referendum are sovereign edicts, then what function does the referendum about sovereignty actually perform?

      We do not need any democratic mandate to besovereign. We are sovereign. Democracy only governs how we steer that sovereign vessel.

      Sovereignty is a sacred and absolute binary condition. Democracy is ephemeral and fickle, and changes with the wind.

    340. chicmac says:

      @Thepnr

      Fair enough.

      Apologies.

    341. Sinky says:

      Another Union Dividend. How Scotland is missing out to Ireland as firms relocate to Dublin

      https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-damaged-city-of-london-2018-11?r=US&IR=T

      Banks and financial firms that make up about 6.5% of Britain’s GDP have already taken precautionary measures to prep for Brexit, meaning a lot of damage is already done.

    342. Legerwood says:

      Effijy @ 1:06 pm

      With all the money being thrown at NI and with Stormont closed then who is spending it and on what?

      Strangely no one seems to be asking that question. Since it is taxpayers’ money then surely there should be some accounting of how it is/has been spent?

    343. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. The sovereign Scottish people said NO in 2014.
      They were lied to and bullied. The rules were broken. The promises have been broken. So a second referendum is perfectly reasonable.

    344. Liz g says:

      Cameron B.Brodie @ 12.58
      Why did ye laugh 🙂
      I was responding to the assertion in your link that claimed ..The Magna Carta was the foundational document of the Uk…

    345. Fireproofjim says:

      CBBrodie
      What about Magna Carta then? Did she die in vain?

    346. Thepnr says:

      Robert Peston being spoon fed more cabinet leaks from a “government minister”, leaks such as this are all part of the plan of course.

      A minister close to the PM tells me the cabinet expects the EU to grant the UK a Brexit delay of nine months – which would of course require the UK to participate in May’s elections to the European Parliament.

      But here is the important point about this delay that this minister was desperate for me to know: “The nine months would be a maximum; if we ratified the Withdrawal Agreement at any point before the end of nine months, we could leave the EU much sooner”.

      http://archive.fo/1idR9

      Also he doesn’t believe there will be a MV3 this week before the EU council meeting but that it will become a crucial vote next week.

    347. ronnie anderson says:

      Cameron B Brodie

      Cam could U P/M me on F/B

    348. jfngw says:

      @Thepnr

      With a nine month extension that gives us the potential for this franchise to run to at least MV20. Although it may have lost some of its sparkle by then.

      There are only two knowns in the future, May will never resign, Mundell will never resign.

      The new oil bonanza money that should be being invested in an oil fund is being used to buy the support of the DUP. Once again frittered away by Westminster to the detriment of Scotland.

    349. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Not really, it’s been one of those days. 😉

      ronnie anderson
      You what? Sorry I don’t do FB. I’m setting up a gmail account and will contact IanB later today, if that’s any help.

      Fireproofjim
      Hopefully not. 😉

    350. Sinky says:

      Remember that “Scotland Office” costs are deducted by UK gov from block grant money that goes to Scottish government but is spent on UK propaganda.

      The cost of the Scotland Office communications staff now stands at around £710,000, despite the department’s reduced role since devolution. A rebranding exercise recently did away with the title of the Scotland Office, which now presents itself as the “UK Government in Scotland”.

      Figures revealed following a parliamentary question from the SNP MP Deidre Brock show that communications staffing costs have risen steadily from £113,236 in 2007-08 to £710,337 in 2017-18.

    351. Sinky says:

      The last Labour Scotland Office had a staff of five. But under Mundell there were 71 employees, with the department’s salary bill approaching £9 million. “How do you justify that increase when responsibility – your responsibilities specifically – have decreased?”

    352. ronnie anderson says:

      Cameron B Brodie Aye i thought Ian had your email addy

    353. HandandShrimp says:

      Last few weeks have blown the BBC bum out of the window. Untrustworthy agents of the state (rather than a political party). Not a primary source of information but rather a wind vane indicating what we are supposed to know and think.

    354. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Fireproofim @ 1.47pm

      Posting lines like that, I would suggest you have friends all over the world – none in this country, but, all over the world.

    355. Thepnr says:

      Wouldn’t normally give a link to an article by Guido Fawkes but this one is worth a read if only to confirm the disarray among the Brexiteers that is causing them such confusion and panic ahead of a possible MV3.

      http://archive.fo/9lRgJ

    356. mike cassidy says:

      OT

      or maybe not.

      Norway now has such a large oil-wealth fund

      it can tell oil to kiss its arse!

      http://archive.is/4J0lY

    357. galamcennalath says:

      ” Boris Johnson said on Sunday it was not too late for the government to get “real change” to May’s deal and cautioned against holding another parliamentary vote on the agreement this week.

      Johnson, a prominent Brexit campaigner who might influence other lawmakers on which way to vote over May’s deal, said in his column in the Telegraph newspaper that this week’s EU summit offered a chance “to get real change to the backstop”.”

      Jeeso … either Johnson has utterly and completely lost the plot and touch with all reality …. or he is a dangerous lying manipulative scumbag trying to make ‘no deal’ happen.

      Or … he could be both!

      http://news.trust.org//item/20190318133611-tvp8g/

    358. mike cassidy says:

      Thepnr 2.43

      As soon as the court decision put the possibility of no-brexit back on the table

      and the tory crazies couldn’t oust May and gain control

      the internal tory brexit war was destined to turn into a chicken run.

      Looks like even GF thinks enough of his fellow crazies will blink first.

    359. galamcennalath says:

      Re Scotland Office

      SNP attacks on it are totally justified. It was supposed to be a small legacy department with the role of representing Scotland’s interests in WM cabinet.

      Supposedly the “UK Government in Scotland”, that in itself I s a role reversal. Given that the ‘UK’ government is openly hostile to Scotland the Scotland Office is now more like the department of the “UK Government against Scotland”.

      My suspicions are that it is being prepared as an alternative puppet government for Scotland!

      Making an issue of this planned coup can do only good, opening yet more folks’ eye to reality.

    360. Fairliered says:

      galamcennalath

      If the UK failed to exit the EU on 29th March and Boris was subject to the improved anti money laundering regulations being introduced on April 1st, how much would it personally cost him?

      There’s your answer.

      The same argument applies to May, Rees Mogg and many other Tory crooks.

    361. Breeks says:


      Capella says:
      18 March, 2019 at 1:44 pm
      @ Breeks – perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. The sovereign Scottish people said NO in 2014.
      They were lied to and bullied….

      Yes, I understood. But what I meant was voting YES or No does not alter the Sovereignty of the result delivered. A No vote is just as sovereign as a Yes vote.

      The big difference is we can vote No a hundred times, even a thousand times, and it won’t change the fact we are sovereign. We only need to vote YES once and the Union is gone. Westminster has no sovereign power or veto over Scotland, but far too many of us think they do…

      A vote doesn’t deliver sovereignty or take it away. The Indy referenda are all about killing the Union, not creating the Nation.

    362. Nana says:

      Don’t know on what, but hearing there will be a statement from Speaker at 3.30 – could theoretically be a ruling on whether govt can even hold another meaningful vote

      https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1107658864126758912

    363. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola’s latest letter to TMay ….

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17509353.read-nicola-sturgeons-letter-to-pm-over-role-of-devolved-nations-in-brexit/

      I hope she’s setting up the framework and evidence, making the case, to shortly say “enough” and call IndyRef2.

    364. Thepnr says:

      Bercow has just now ruled out a third meaningful vote being allowed unless there are some substantial change to the deal that was voted on last week.

      That rules out any vote before the EU council meeting this Thursday at least.

      https://goo.gl/PFGD9A

    365. Breeks says:


      Nana says:
      18 March, 2019 at 3:36 pm
      Nicola writes to big T

      https://www.gov.scot/news/letter-to-the-prime-minister/

      That escalated quickly… I hope.

    366. galamcennalath says:

      Bercow says no return unless substantially changed. My understanding is it can’t be changed because it is based on the WA agreed with the EU27.

      Looks like Option 1, WA agreed and short delay is dead.

      So that leaves some serious UK U turns to get an extension OR leaving on ‘no deal’.

      This may make the content of Nicola’s letter above irrelevant now, everything may have moved on!

    367. Bob Mack says:

      Bercow has just holed the Government below the water line.

      What next?

    368. geeo says:

      Mike cassidy @2.43

      Last year, Norway made more money from their oil fund than from extracted oil.

      And they had LESS than Scotland !

      Make no mistake, we could build a sizeble asset in just 20/30 years.

    369. Robert Louis says:

      Much as I despise Westminster, I must say, I am impressed with John Bercow, the speaker.

      I have watched him several times when talking of the behaviour of the executive, give a steely hard star at the government front bench.

      Today, whilst pointing out he will not be swayed from doing his job by pressures etc… he looked long and hard directly at the government front bench.

      It is clear Downing street are desperately trying to force him to do their bidding, and he has made it clear he simply won’t. Good. A man of principle in Westminster, and their really precious few of them.

      Now Theresa May is effectively stymied, unable to just keep bringing her deal back over and over again as she had planned until the clock runs down.

      In many years time, people will read about these events and the person who will stand out as having genuine principles, will be John Bercow, the Speaker of the HoC.

    370. Cubby says:

      Progue UK Parliament. No UK parliament. Independence. Yippee.

      LOL. What a black farce at Westminster.

    371. North chiel says:

      “Robertlouis @0410” agreed , however the speaker references conventions going back to 1604 ? As the United Kingdom parliament came into being in 1707 does this confirm that the present day Westminster Parliament is in fact the “ de facto parliament of England”??

    372. Breeks says:


      galamcennalath says:
      18 March, 2019 at 4:00 pm
      Bercow says no return unless substantially changed…..

      So Theresa runs away to get the text translated into French….

    373. SilverDarling says:

      Well played Bercow!

      However, did Rees-Mogg say there was nothing to stop it being brought back in the new session? What would be the odds of them dissolving Parliament to bring it back? Are there mechanisms to do that without a General election?

      This Brexit malarky has more twists than a twisty thing from twistyland.

    374. galamcennalath says:

      Breeks says

      So Theresa runs away to get the text translated into French

      Latin, and she might get the European Research Group on board 🙂

    375. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 15:13,

      Both you and Capella are right, each in your own way. But her point about the “no” vote is hard to gainsay for present purposes, because it can be argued that, lacking any newer concrete evidence (polls don’t count), it’s hard for the SG to claim it’s merely enacting sovereign demand. This is the stumbling block.

      I see it somewhat differently perhaps (or perhaps not, in the end). For me the constitutional aspect should serve not as a hindrance but as a rallying point, a deliberately confrontational opportunity, a means by which the SG/SNP can alert people to the way we are constantly demeaned, ignored and exploited, and thereby change the popular sentiment. It is the apparent reluctance to do this that people like me find concerning, but to be fair it is also a question of careful timing, to ensure that it it is able to carry people along with it and not merely put their backs up counter-productively instead.

      I believe the WM Establishment is rather like the Wizard of Oz in the film, apparently all-powerful but once you pull away the curtain you realise it’s mostly a hollow phoney. And given a judicious push at the right time, would fall over very quickly.

      We absolutely need the right timing, but we do also eventually need the push. I still believe that it’s coming.

    376. Nana says:

      Peter Grant MP says

      If the Tories han’t spent the last 300 years acting as if the Act of Union simply incorporated Scotland into the English parliament, they could now argue that this parliament can’t be bound by a convention from 1604 because this parliament didn’t exist in 1604.

      Karma.

      https://twitter.com/PeterGrantMP/status/1107680656446885889

    377. SilverDarling says:

      ‘Prorogation’ being spoken of to get around this? Does anyone know if they can do this without calling a GE?

    378. galamcennalath says:

      Guardian live updates …. Bercow’s ruling may go much further than his original words implied.

      Hilary Benn, the chair of the Brexit committee, asks if Bercow’s statement means the government would have to get the EU to agree to changes to the agremeent. Bercow says, thinking off the top of his head, “in all likelihood, the answer to [Benn’s] question is yes”.

      So, Bercow is saying WA has to change before another vote, and that means back to the negotiating table, which the EU have rejected with current UK position.

      The crisis just got deeper.

    379. euan0709 says:

      See that Police Scotland are now on stand bye to go to Norn Ireland.
      Wonder if they will be wearing their unofficial Union Flag badges (approved by ACC Bernie Higgins), when they arrive in Belfast ?

    380. call me dave says:

      Sir Robert Buckland (lawyery person) UKGov says

      “We have to get our thinking caps on”
      “We could have done without this”
      “Deep thoughts in the next few hours”

      Must get new stock of popcorn …. but who knows! 🙂

    381. Nana says:

      Very grateful to the Lord Chancellor for retweeting this thread on why, with respect, I think the Speaker has got it wrong.
      https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1107674670411726849

    382. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 16:10,

      Likewise, RL.

      It’s like a wierd re-enactment of the 17th Century, where the Executive (PM Theresa in place of King Charles) is trying to treat Parliament as a doormat and impose its way regardless.

      The irony being, as my mrs pointed out with no prompting, we have May repeatedly trying to get the same vote passed in the HoC, while simultaneously denying the people – in whose name she speciously claims to act – their rightful demand for a new vote, whether IR2 or EUR2.

      Arrogance and hypocrisy don’t come any higher.

    383. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      On the other hand she got it in in time, before Bercow’s ruling which she may well have anticipated. It’s now on record.

    384. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      Maybe, but there’s a later tweet from Maugham in the thread:

      Well, you know, instinctively I feel as you do. But I can’t find anything that supports my instinctive view in Erskine May and nor is anyone raising it in the House. So I now doubt I am right.

    385. North chiel says:

      Does this now strengthen the EU’s hand as regards strings attached to any extension ( or even improbable refusal of extension , which would make it straight choice of revoke article 50 or default to no deal . ? My guess in this scenario would be mass hysteria& panic at Westminster and thereafter a vote to revoke? As the croupier says “ place ur bets ladies& gentlemen ! No third throw of the dice for May !

    386. Dr Jim says:

      The evil that is Nicola Sturgeon: or is it?:

      Of course all of this is entirely the fault and plan of the SNP who are engineering a hard Brexit by trying to stop Brexit altogether knowing that because of the Bain principle everyone will vote against everything the SNP says thus bringing about the opposite of what the HOC wants but aiding the cause of Scottish Independence by bringing about a hard Brexit

      See you have to have Mundle’s brain and the evil of Rasputin mixed in with mental irregularity to come up with that and that’s why I’m not a politician, they’d find me out….but is it true? Oooohoohoohoo

    387. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      North chiel @ 17:24,

      May could respond appropriately to Bercow’s Verbot by submitting a motion to conduct a PV, and an extension would clearly be necessary to bring that into effect. Since that would significantly enhance the prospect of the UK voting to remain, I imagine the EU27 would look upon that very favorably without more ado.

      But May has a track record for not choosing potential ways forward, trussed up as she is in multiple constraints of her own devising. (Hmmm, that seems very suggestive somehow.)

      Still, the HoC is paramount, so they could always have a vote on whether they can have another vote, I suppose…

      …tick, tock…

    388. Capella says:

      Well that was a tonic. Not only did John Bercow call a halt to the ridiculous Tory games in the HoC, he also faced down Andrea Leadsom who was clearly displeased. And she had on her new pink leather jacket too, which clashed with her red face.

      Now what?

    389. call me dave says:

      The FM letter to the PM published at 15:30hrs and still nothing I can find reported on any of Auntie’s news sites.

      Strange that eh! Nothing to see move along!

      Mind you FM your timing was coincidentally impeccable. 🙂

    390. Iain mhor says:

      @Cubby 11:36am
      Don’t be facetious, try constructive, there’s any amount of material there to work with.

    391. Clootie says:

      Well done speaker Bercow. You may be the first speaker not to get to the Lords. However you will be widely respected for it.

    392. Nana says:

      Govt will now seek extension to A50, @KwasiKwarteng tells MPs.
      ‘Highly likely European Council will require a purpose…[for an extension].”

      https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1107703580599955456

    393. Iain mhor says:

      @Fireproofjim 1:47pm

      Lol! Big upvote for the Tony Hancock reference 😀

    394. Iain mhor says:

      @Socrates MacSporran 2:41pm

      Haha, didn’t realise there were that many fans of classic comedy in here!

    395. galamcennalath says:

      An unnamed Tory gov minister has been reported as saying … “There’s no plan yet, everyone is just trying to come to terms with it “

      No plab yet, so business as usual!?

      May to request A50 extension. Wonder what excuse she’s using? What does she need more time for?

      Hope the EU force some sanity in return for an extension. Any sanity, would do.

    396. geeo says:

      Cubby@11.36am.

      My mate uses a similair logic when dealing with believers in old men in the sky…

      The Mr Tickle Principle.

      “God is real, its in the bible, which is the word of god”

      “So…Mr tickle is also a real being, as it says so in Roger Hargreaves books ?

      Usual ends in a hissy fit from the god squad.

    397. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Abulhaq at 8.54am

      An unacceptable post. Whether the Palestinian political set-up is corrupt (according to some)is immaterial in their rights to their own land and who they choose to leads them in it. It is none of our business and it certainly is none of Israel’s business. Israel is committing genocide in an illegal invasion and occupation of other people’s land amd actually killing women and children, some of whom have actually been (wait for it) throwing stones at illegal occupiers.

      If the Palestinaan administration is corrupt that is the business of the legitimate people of Palestine and nobody else.

      And its alleged corruption is not inthe same lesgue as the corruption of the US support for a genocidal state while the rest of the west turns a blind eye.

    398. Tatu3 says:

      I’m neither for/against Israel or for/against Palestine. I don’t know enough about it.
      After all, most of the information comes from the tv or newspapers, which we all know by now we can’t rely on.

    399. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
      First sentence. 😉

      Abulhaq
      Please keep your racially motivated political prejudice to yourself. Unless you seek to poison the debate?

    400. Nana says:

      With only 11 days until the planned EU exit date of the 29th March, FM @NicolaSturgeon met the Standing Council on Europe to discuss Scotland and the UK’s place in Europe.
      https://twitter.com/ScotGovFM/status/1107681462013345793

      Where is EU post-Bercow intervention? Quick thread after chats with senior officials in Bxl and EU capitals 1/
      https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1107712703030796288

    401. dom says:

      Brexit debate on the BBC Parliament channel

    402. geeo says:

      Welsh MP complains about tories re: JMC.

      Tory minister: “it is worth remembering Wales gave legislative consent”

      Em….Scotland didn’t give consent, yet you forged ahead anyway counting it as yes we did.

      Tory hypocracy right there.

      Scum.

    403. dom says:

      The government are trying to explain to everyone else the unexplainable.

    404. dom says:

      Geeo

      “Tory Scum”

      And here was you telling me yesterday that you were all inclusive. That you didn’t have a bad word to say about anyone.

      There are Tories out there who will be voting for Scottish Independence and you have just gone and alienated them

      Is it one rule for you and your wee clique and another rule for everybody else???

      I think I can confidently call you a hypocrite of the highest order.

      Arse.

    405. Fireproofjim says:

      Ian Mhor
      Socrates and me both have empty arms, but it’s life or death for some poor devil.
      OK I’ll stop now.

    406. Petra says:

      Channel 4:- The ERG seem to think that Bercow has done them a favour and we’ll be bailing out in 11 days time. They can forget that one. Big T will be off, cap in hand, to beg for an extension, imo.

    407. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Concerning peripheral issues of geopolitics, religion or any other potential source of divisiveness, some people just don’t seem to learn. To succeed, we need to maximise support across the spectrum of belief, not indulge in counterproductive hobbyhorsing.

      It isn’t as if we lack suitable issues of self-determination to keep us busily engaged.

      Without our own country, the rest is just so much posturing and hot air.

      (Which might of course suit some.)

    408. Liam says:

      Petra, did you just really use ‘ERG’ and ‘Think’ in the same sentence?

    409. Marcia says:

      If the Tories apply for a long extension to the Brexit date there will have to be Euro elections in May.

    410. SilverDarling says:

      We are all caught up in this battle of arcane Westminster constitutional devices with each side scoring ridiculous points to render the entire process meaningless. A game played to show who can utilise the minutiae buried in Erskine May best. Meanwhile, we are slipping into a Brexit blackhole.

      Could someone find something in Erskine May to help us get out of this hell?

    411. call me dave says:

      Wos Tweet:

      BREAKING: New Licensing Round West of Scotland to Open Up Supermassive Oil Fields Where 100 Years of Oil Predicted
      Published in Oil Industry
      News on Monday, 18 March 2019

      Archived: See full page Jings!

      https://archive.is/Ja0Gm

    412. SilverDarling says:

      @call me dave

      Just saw that too. Makes you weep what they got away with.

    413. Petra says:

      @ Liam says at 7:28 pm …. ”Petra, did you just really use ‘ERG’ and ‘Think’ in the same sentence?”

      Yeah a bit of a faux pas on my part, Liam. The only time that they seem to use their singular braincells is to recall the phone number of their hedge fund managers.

    414. galamcennalath says:

      Anyone familiar with the board game Risk will know where I’m coming from here.

      As a child it was my favourite board game. Always liked to play as yellow. Around the ages 10-12 there could be problem. While most kids had gone to the trouble of learning the rules, a sizeable minority were either incapable of understanding or more likely had chosen not to bother. The way the dice were interpreted seemed a common issue. They said they knew how to play but as the game began it was obvious ‘their rules’ were distinctly nonstandard. Truth is they didn’t have a scoobie.

      Just occurred to me this must be exactly how the EU have felt when Tories came to the table. Many didn’t understand the rules of the game or the manner in which progress could be made. Either stupidity or arrogance by not bothering to understand. Worse, they had their own version of the rules. And it persists with some apparently still clueless about the meaning and purpose of the backstop.

      And like I felt about some of my childhood Risk opponents, the EU must be utter frustrated and disappointed at having sat down with folks who give all the indications of not having a scoobie!

    415. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 18 March, 2019 at 12:23 am:
      ” … Oh he’s changed his position now Robert,he is no longer arguing that your take on the Union is just for a few posters on here.”

      Sorry. Liz g , I was almost finished typing a reply to your comment when my step-son called to help me assemble and adjust an electrically assisted tricycle I bought. As his time is limited it took first place.

      So I’ll skip the bit about the wee disagreement I was having with another Winger and up-date you with your kind enquiry after my health and wow! is it some update.

      Just over a week or so ago I had a really drastic headache. Now this wasn’t just your ordinary headache it was devastating. When the agony subsided I sent a text for help to my step-son. Now this was a Saturday and i tried to contact NHS24 but their site was down and so was everything else I tried.

      My son bundled me into the car and headed for A&E. To cut the story short I had developed a very rare malady called Trigeminal Neuralgia. It strikes mainly males but there are a few female sufferers who swear that the pains are far, far worse than Labour pains. The malady has another name, “Suicide Headaches”, for sufferers have been known to literally bang their heads on the wall to try and stop the pain. I sure could have done without that though.

      Anyway, to cut the story short, My GP prescribed a couple of medications and like magic the irregular bouts of agony went away. However, the particular meds do sometimes have bad effects that are harmful so I’m getting regular tests to see if they will suit me. There are alternatives but apparently not so effective.

      Just when you think things are getting better this old World seems to have a habit of giving you another kick – and that is the reason I’m buying the electric trike.

      Nice machine that has got a great big basket on the back and a big, but smaller one, on the front. Just the thing for doing the shopping and getting exercise while you do so.

      The good thing being that they claim it can do between 20 to 30 miles on a single battery charge, (I’ll have a pinch of salt with that), but that is on battery alone and it is not hard to peddle and has several settings for the amount of assistance from the electrics.

      I’m not ready for the wooden overcoat quite yet awhile but could do without the Suicide Headaches. The strange thing is that when we feel pain it is usually a warning we are suffering damage but these headaches do not indicate that we are being damaged. I can tell you that toothache has nothing on this lot.

      Now here’s a thing The Kirkcaldy Victoria were brilliant and this on a Saturday afternoon with the usual queue of sporting injuries, traffic accidents and falling down drunks. Etc.

      The staff were efficient, cheerful and I was seen well within the official time limit. Thank you NHS Scotland.

    416. Abulhaq says:

      @Manandboy 09h18
      Having been born and partly raised in the socalled Middle East where politicians are generally in the business of politics for the money, prestige etc with no sense of civic responsibility, but past masters at scapegoating, Scotland is indeed, despite the current régime, fortunate. Political illiteracy is a major problem in the ME.
      The Arab Spring was an attempt to reshape the political culture. Unfortunately, it fell victim to ‘too high expectations’ on the part of the the naïve, overly westernised initiators who imagined that once the reformist jinni was out the bottle he couldn’t be put back inside. How wrong. How little they understood about the regions history.
      @Breeks
      Everybody is an expert on the Arab world. Telling us what we need, what we ought to do, how to run our affairs even creating countries where there were none. Trouble is WE allowed them to do it.
      Rather pathetic. Frankly, the Ottomans were better than the current mess ?
      Notice some on here think they are MidEast experts too….Ya salâm! What cheek!
      Likes of them fucked up Iraq!

    417. SilverDarling says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I know we don’t always agree but please accept my sympathies for what is a terrible affliction. Trigeminal Neuralgia is indeed a pain on the worst scale and if you are irascible because of that I fully understand.

      Take care and I hope you feel better soon.

    418. Macart says:

      @Nana 6.15

      Heh! ‘Seek an extension’ 🙂

      And that’s the important bit Nana. Yes they will require a very good reason to grant any form of significant extension. Tories aren’t big on any of the obvious ones right enough, but never say never. Also? Despite what Labour leadership claims, they are in no way ready for a GE without the Tories first carrying the can for Brexit. As for a second EU ref? They’re every bit as split as their best buds across the chamber.

      I’d say he’s dropped the whole bag of cats right in the laps of both the Conservative and Labour leaderships. 😎

    419. Petra says:

      @ call me dave says at 7:49 pm …. ”BREAKING: New Licensing Round West of Scotland to Open Up Supermassive Oil Fields Where 100 Years of Oil Predicted. Archived: See full page Jings!” https://archive.is/Ja0Gm

      What on earth are you playing at call me dave? You know that this ”stuff” (I can’t even bear to say the word) is a horrendous curse on Scotland. Better to do what the BBC et al do and that is to bury such bad news or to enable us all to sleep at night just tell everyone in Scotland that there’s none of that ”stuff’ left.

    420. Cubby says:

      Call Me Dave @7.49pm

      In any normal country this would be massive news and be all over the media with lots of analysis and comments on implications for this that and the other. Will we see it in the MSM?

      Probably not because Westminster’s crime of looting Scotlands resources must be kept hidden from the masses – the Walking Misinformed.

      Will Westminster trash 100 years of oil wealth like it has done for the last 50 years or will Scotland take control and use it, like Norway, to create a wealth fund for future generations.

      The Yes movement must stop playing down the oil wealth. This is just playing into the Britnats propaganda. Remember they said in the 70’s the oil would run out in the mid – eighties. Thieves and liars the lot of them.

    421. wull says:

      Just a word to Robert Peffers to say I hope the meds do suit you, and that you continue to feel much better. And that the trike turns out to be as useful – and even enjoyable – as it sounds. Wishing you as much good health as possible, and all best.

    422. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 19:57,

      Sorry to hear about your additional health tribulations, RP. (As if there weren’t enough already, not least of the political kind.) Hope they get a good handle on that ailment soon.

      As my late cousin Robert once said, “getting old ain’t for cissies”. Nobody tells you that when you’re younger (though some have it in the neck from the get-go).

      All the more reason for that precious safety net, of course.

    423. CameronB Brodie says:

      Petra
      The ERG aren’t thick, they simply have a particularly culturally-bound and chauvinist world view and an extreme conception of individualism that lacks metaethical reflection. However, as they are Tory hard-liners, it is safe to suggest that they’re cognitive and ethical skills are bio-neurologically impaired compared to more rational members of society.

    424. call me dave says:

      @Robert Peffers

      All my best for improved health.

      Wings is all the better for your input.

      @Petra

      Ah Ken! Ah Ken! …but oils well that ends well. 🙂

    425. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Absolutely criminal @call me dave says at 7:49 pm

      https://archive.is/Ja0Gm

      Trying to get some grubby deals done using Scotland’s assets while they still can.

      All these licences MUST be called in by an iSottish Government for review and in necessary retender.

      We can’t have the E&P Majors being given tax rebates for removing our Sovereign Wealth like they currently are now.

    426. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffets, hope they gets the meds sorted and the headaches go away, it mst be terrible.
      All the best.

    427. CameronB Brodie says:

      One of these days I’ll post without poor grammar and spell.

    428. CameronB Brodie says:

      OFFS….ing. ing. ing. spelling.

    429. Republicofscotland says:

      Oh Christ not more oil, according to Westminster Scotland’s too wee and too poor to be independent, this new 100 year of oil discovery will be a boon for Westminster but a terrible burden for an independent Scotland.

      We all know what a curse oil is for Saudi Arabia.

    430. TheItalianJob says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Hope you get better. And good to hear that the Vic Hospital in my Kirkcaldy was upto the high standard to treat you in good time.

      Keep well and look forward to your comments as they are so enthralling and well documented.

      I also read your replies to the anti Independentitists and SNPbad commentators which I also enjoy although I always skip past these posters.

    431. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Kangaroo says: 18 March, 2019 at 6:20 am:

      ” … Brexit Withdrawal Agreement brought to you by Angela Merkle and Theresa May
      https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-11/subversive-statecraft-scandal-exposes-bombshell-german-designed-brexit
      Make of it what you will.”

      Oh! Give it a rest – do you think us fools?

      Just a few lines down in your link it says, “According to a confidential source”, and that is where I stopped reading and exclaimed:-

      PISH! followed by – Aye! Richt!

    432. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert Peffers,

      Mind avoid spicy food and cut down on tea/coffee.

    433. katherine hamilton says:

      Hi Mr.P.
      Best wishes. Nuff said.

    434. Petra says:

      @ CameronB Brodie says at 8:23 pm – ”Petra – The ERG aren’t thick, they simply have a particularly culturally-bound and chauvinist world view and an extreme conception of individualism that lacks metaethical reflection. However, as they are Tory hard-liners, it is safe to suggest that they’re cognitive and ethical skills are bio-neurologically impaired compared to more rational members of society.”

      Okay Cameron, not thick. Let’s just say that they are ”lacking” in some kind of … or in many ways, lol.

    435. Thepnr says:

      Well another interesting day in Brexit mayhem. Difficult to guess where we go from here but the first step in an extension to article 50 and that much I’d think is certain.

      Look at it from the Eu’s point of view, they know that now the underlying mood among the public in the UK is to remain and for that reason alone they will be willing to grant an extension. I suppose the real question is how long an extension would be acceptable?

      That’s a much harder question because I don’t believe May will be able to give them any justification for granting an extension so I think the EU will take it out of her hands and offer her some kind of ultimatum.

      Either get a deal done and agreed with parliament before 29th March and you can have your short extension until 1st July, you will not need to take part in the EU elections as you will have agreed the WA and a deal to leave.

      Fail to get agreement to a deal before 29th March and you can must accept an extension until end of 2020, do not come back for any further negotiations unless you have significantly new proposals.

      Just speculation but that’s all anyone’s got for now. I’m loving every minute of the clusterborach LOL the Uk government and opposition look more useless as each day passes. Great news for us that support Independence.

      Can’t wait until the next clusterfuck and shambles of governance occurs because it can’t possibly be long in coming 🙂

    436. geeo says:

      Oh dear, desperate dom alert !!!

      “And here was you telling me yesterday that you were all inclusive. That you didn’t have a bad word to say about anyone”.
      ……..

      Feel free to QUOTE ME on that, dim dom ?

      I also never said “TORY SCUM”

      Nice to see your true colours shining through with your ‘arse’ comment.

      Doesn’t that make you a bit of a hypocrite ?

      Deary me.

      Can you not read ?

    437. galamcennalath says:

      @Petra
      @CameronB

      I often wonder what it’s like to live in the same planet/country/society as everyone else but to have such a totally different understanding of humanity. Hard right Tories brains must really be wired differently! Sympathy, empathy, compassion, just don’t seem to feature.

    438. manandboy says:

      Commiserations,Robert, hoping you recover fully very soon.

    439. call me dave says:

      O/T

      Heard (half listening) this morning to shortbread radio that the SGov were trying to negotiate a health deal with the EU that Scots abroad in the EU would still receive the medical treatment they enjoy now while on holiday etc if Scotland continues to give medical care to EU citizens living or holidaying in Scotland.

      Health being a devolved issue.
      Anybody got any info on this.

      Tumbleweed on Auntie wie a kilts website as is the FM letter today to the PM.

    440. Thepnr says:

      Corbyn is as bad if not worse a leader than the pathetic creature May.

      “Leaders of Lib Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP were meant to meet Corbyn this afternoon. He didn’t turn up.”

      https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1107691377897467904

    441. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Robert Peffers

      Your illness is not good news. There are one or two of us on here, and I hope I am one of them, who, being Baby Boomers have acquired enough experience to deal with the trolls and daf Yoons on here, without as ye having reached your level of skill in the devastating put-down.

      So, we need you to get better and continue to inspire and educate us. Meanwhile, if you do take some time out from inspiring us, we will try to step up to the plate. I know I will.

      Get well soon Auld Boab, we will need you for the final push to FREEDOM!!!

    442. manandboy says:

      In 2012, had it been possible, if someone had offered Scotland the choice of having a Referendum when England was very strong in 2014, or at anytime during the chaotic Government of 2019, I suspect a majority would have chosen 2019.
      It wasn’t the time in 2014.
      But it is now.

    443. Dorothy Devine says:

      Mr Peffers may I add my good wishes and thanks for the education I didn’t get in school!

    444. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Just been reading the Guardian’s take on today’s events in the HoC. They are referring to the Maybot as LINO – Leader In Name Only – brilliant, suits her, since everyone else has been walking all over her.

    445. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Mr Peffers, take care of yourself and get well soon.

      We’ll need you fighting fit for the forthcoming (and I hope final) push for Scotlands Independence.

    446. mumsyhugs says:

      Aye Mr Peffers – god bless our wonderful Scottish NHS. Stay well young man – we need you!

    447. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 18 March, 2019 at 11:55 am:

      ” … The link to ukconstitutionallaw.org that yesindyref2 posted upthread is an interesting read, specially a comment from Peter Thompson.”

      Aye! Capella, and I’ve been preaching that mantra since I was a schoolboy in Leith. I leaned it from an old semi-retired KC, (King’s Council). Not only did I learn it from him but he fetched me the legal proofs.

      It has taken a long time for just a handful of believers to get the truth out there but I believe the Legally Sovereign people of Scotland really are beginning to believe … IN THEMSELVES.

    448. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@8.40 pm

      Good to see you posting. Sorry you have been poorly. Must be the strain of having to keep telling some people the same information time and time again on Wings.

      You have my utmost respect for your patience and resilience in continuing to get your message across. Keep on posting.

      GOOD HEALTH.

    449. cynicalHighlander says:

      mmmm

      http://archive.is/GfpFM

      Before anyone complains as long as they support Bella C I won’t feed there revenue stream.

    450. ben madigan says:

      @ Mr Peffers
      Sorry to hear you are ill
      Hope the meds work out for you or a good alternative is found
      All best wishes for a speedy recovery.
      Ben

    451. Essexexile says:

      Very best wishes Robert. I hope your meds help you to manage the problem effectively.

    452. Still Positive says:

      I echo many comments above for a speedy recovery for Robert Peffers. Best wishes sir. xx

    453. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 18 March, 2019 at 1:44 pm:

      ” … So a second referendum is perfectly reasonable.”

      Indeed it is, Capella, but Breeks isn’t.

    454. Marie Clark says:

      Sorry to hear that you have been in great pain Robert. It’s a helluva thing, and disnae half drag you down. I hope that your meds suit you, and that you feel a lot better soon.I hope that you get on okay with your electric trike. Hubby and I bought electric bikes last year and they’re great.

      Keep well Auld Boab, we need you, although, goodness knows where we go from here, after the speaker dropped his bombshell today. I don’t know whether we are any nearer having indyref2, or, whether it’s further down the road now. Interesting times right enough.

    455. SilverDarling says:

      Jeremy Corbyn due to meet SNP, Plaid, Greens and LibDems over the constitutional crisis. He ‘couldn’t’ make the meeting but did a star turn at the Kebab Awards.

      Nice priorities, JC.

    456. Capella says:

      Hi Robert – yes the Peter Thompson comment is what you have told us frequently and it’s a message well worth repeating. I am very grateful for your perseverance.

      Do take care and get better soon. I’m sorry to hear you are having to deal with a painful condition. Old age ain’t for the faint-hearted. But do please keep on posting.

    457. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath
      Hard right Tory brains are a dark place of fear driven anxiety.

      ———

      re. Brexit. Time for some more International Relations Theory? The English school views the world from the perspective of the English constitution and English law, which is considered unaffected by international Treaties unless they are ratified by Parliament. As such, Westminster is hardly likely to confirm the Treaty of Union as the foundational instrument of union, as that would bind English law to Scottish legal principles i.e. popular sovereignty.

      Sorry for the length of this post.

      How national identity shaped the EU: Brexit as a case study

      Liberalism and Constructivism

      In order to suggest why Brexit happened, this paper focuses on the differences between two leading schools of thought in International Relations (IR) theory: liberalism and constructivism. Representatives of the liberalist school believe that global institutions play the main role in ensuring cooperation between states (Shiraev, 2014). One of their areas of expertise is institutional peace theory, which attempts to explain how collaboration can be sustained in the anarchy of power politics. Institutional liberalism is a modern theory in IR that suggests that international organizations and institutions, such as the United Nations, NATO and the European Union can maintain cooperation among states (Sorensen, 2006).

      In opposition to this school of thought, constructivists argue that global political relations between countries are socially constructed (Friedberg, 2005: 34). In other words, states’ relationships are based on three categories: norms (beliefs about both what is successful, and what is right in worldwide politics); strategic cultures (‘sets of beliefs about the fundamental character of international politics and about the best ways of coping with it, especially as regards the utility of force and the prospects for cooperation’) (Friedberg, 2005:34); and identities (Wendt, 1999, 1995, 1994).

      One of the well-defined understandings of identity is suggested by Rogers Brubaker and Frederick Cooper (2000), who assert that identity is a foundation for political and social action. A co-operative phenomenon representing similarity among members of a group, identity is understood as both a key feature of collective or individual ‘selfhood’, and the outcome of political or social action, or the result of competing or various discourses.

      http://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2016/11/22/How-national-identity-shaped-the-EU-Brexit-as-a-study.html

      Goodbye Britannia? Brexit and Britain’s Approach to International Relations

      Presented by CIPS and the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs (GSPIA)

      The Jean Monnet Centre of Excellence events are co-funded by a grant from the Erasmus+ Programme of the European Union.

      Britain’s vote to leave the European Union came as a shock to many in Europe and internationally and raised concerns that Britain is heading towards isolating itself not only from the rest of Europe but taking a more populist, inward-looking, mercantilist view towards international relations. Supporters of Brexit counter by arguing that in joining the EU, the UK “shackled itself to a corpse” and that leaving will allow Britain and the EU to develop a more constructive relationship while also allowing the UK to return to a more global-orientated than European-focused foreign policy.

      As Brexit unfolds, the realities for Britain’s approaches to European security, conflict, and development are slowly becoming apparent. In this presentation, Dr Tim Oliver, a noted writer on Brexit and British foreign policy, will discuss why Brexit happened, where relations between the UK and the EU might now be headed, what Brexit could mean for European security, and whether concerns about Brexit and Britain’s isolation and decline are justified.

      https://www.cips-cepi.ca/event/goodbye-britannia-brexit-and-britains-approach-to-international-relations/

      The English School, Constructivism and Brexit: Theoretical Investigations

      Constructivism and Brexit

      Brexit is not a single event or process but a series of time-limited and open-ended multi-level processes touching on and shaped by a wide range of interests, ideas,institutions, and individuals. The formal Brexit ‘negotiations’ (or ‘debates’, these need not be formally structured negotiations between two or more parties) themselves can be broken down into three sets: within the UK; between the UK and the EU; and within the remaining EU (Oliver, 2017). A fourth set can, when needed, also be drawn out that highlight the international level such as Brexit within the transatlantic relationship.

      As set out in the table below, taken together these produce
      approximately fourteen sets of negotiations on which agreements – or a decision, position or narrative – needs to be reached. For example, in the UK-EU negotiations there will need to be agreements over a British exit, a transition arrangement, a new relationship, arrangements to cover the security and defence relations that include NATO, and negotiations within the remaining EU member states over what they want – and will agree to – in each of these. The multifaceted nature of Brexit means it defies any single theoretical approach. As such constructivist approaches are but one way to study Brexit, albeit one that opens up some key aspects of it (Oliver, 2017).

      https://www.psa.ac.uk/sites/default/files/conference/papers/2018/Oliver%20and%20Wilson.pdf

    458. galamcennalath says:

      An official report on the impact Brexit will have on rural Scotland includes the quote: “We are fuc*ed,” it has emerged.

      … sounds about right.

      https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/official-report-brexits-impact-rural-scotland-phrase-we-are-f-a4095061.html

    459. Kangaroo says:

      Robert Peffers @8:40pm

      Given your headache your reaction was understandable.

      I did however warn with the comment “Make of it what you will”.

      Hope you are feeling better and the appropriate meds can be obtained.

    460. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 7.57
      Oh my Robert what a thing to happen… It does indeed sound nasty.
      Fingers crossed the the current medication will work out..

      Can I also be a wee bit cheeky and suggest that you think of applying to your local council for an alert system.
      My mum has one and she wears it on her wrist.
      If she presses the alert I get a phone call to let me know she needs assistance. If they can’t get me they send someone to check on her.
      I’d hate to think of you not being able to get help when you need it….And if for no other reason,your son will have peace of mind too.
      Stay well Robert XX

    461. Camz says:

      “We’ve made it clear in every fundraiser since 2015 that we plan to print a million copies of WBB2 for the next indyref.”

      Don’t forget to include the Wee Black Book, listing the broken promises, the clusterf**k that is Brexit, and the oil fields that were suppressed/downplayed until after the Indyref.

      Positive campaigns are fine, but don’t be afraid to play by the Westminster rules a little, especially when it’s true.

    462. manandboy says:

      Brexit: Bercow chucks a hulking great spanner in the works.
      So says Laura Kuennsberg’s headline on the BBC online news.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47616477
      But she then goes on to say, “The government seems to have been cooling all day on the idea of getting MPs to vote again on Theresa May’s Brexit deal this week, for a whole shopping list of reasons.”
      So in fact, while Bercow had a spanner, there was no works to throw it in. Typical of LK and the Brainwashing Corporation.

      Scotland and the rest of the UK would do well to abandon the BBC completely.

    463. jfngw says:

      BBC Newsnight eventually invite Ian Blackford onto Newsnight, they use this time to ask him would the SNP take independence off the table. The BBC don’t seem to understand that the choice of a independence vote, if we were forced to leave the EU, was the mandate they were elected on.

      Apparently the BBC only understand a mandate if it is an English mandate.

    464. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      Hope you feel better soon. Sorry for being pushy but I think an alert is definitely worth considering. My mum has one and I’ve finally gotten her to carry it with her. I think we both feel a bit more secure in her independence now.

      I can be really nippy if I put my mind to it. 😉

    465. Legerwood says:

      SilverDarling says:
      18 March, 2019 at 10:17 pm
      Jeremy Corbyn due to meet SNP, Plaid, Greens and LibDems over the constitutional crisis. He ‘couldn’t’ make the meeting but did a star turn at the Kebab Awards.

      Nice priorities, JC.””
      ……………….

      Not the first time he has failed to show when these parties have tried to hold such a meeting.

      Jan 2018

      https://www.itv.com/news/2018-01-07/snp-attacks-corbyn-for-turning-down-invite-to-cross-party-meeting-on-single-market/

    466. HandandShrimp says:

      Thought the question to Blackford about taking independence off the table was written for the BBC by Davidson 🙂 Why would the SNP take the lifeboat off the ship?

      Bercow is off the gammon Christmas card list (was he ever on it). Mad stuff in Westminster as the ship hits another rock. Lifeboat anyone?

    467. Robert Peffers says:

      @SilverDarling says: 18 March, 2019 at 8:09 pm:

      ” … Trigeminal Neuralgia is indeed a pain on the worst scale”

      Wll that’s something we both agree upon.;-))

      ” … and if you are ” because of that I fully understand.”

      Well no, Trigeminal Neuralgia comes right out of the blue. What you regard as, “irrascable”, has been my lot for rather longer than that.

      It is indeed a strange thing but from the instant of the first pill it seems almost to have vanished. I can’t say it has gone for there is a sensation occasionally like the static electricity pings you get from a mixture of natural and man made materials but the screaming pains of the full blown thing are gone and I hope I do not speak too soon.

      I’m not joking when I say that even attempting to get a bit of fresh air brought on an attack. It was just the touch of a slight breeze blowing against my head. The slightest touch down one side of my head and face triggered sheer agony.

      Just as well it is a comparatively rare condition for I would not wish it upon anyone.
      Take care and I hope you feel better soon.

    468. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jeremy Corbyn is a neo-Marxist, so although his appreciation of cultural and racial matter is an improvement on that of old-skool Marxist, he’s still not post-colonial with regards Scotland. In that respect, he is an old-skool English (nationalist) socialist neo-colonialist. Old-skool Marxists share the utilitarian kernel of their ideology with Tories, who’s world view and opposition to liberalism also have their origins in Bentham’s utilitarian ethics.

    469. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Camz @ 22:48,

      Yes, I’ve made the same point upthread. It’s not a question of “playing dirty” (though you didn’t phrase it as such anyway), but rather of re-framing the issue from having to “prove the impossible” about an unknown (by definition) future as an independent state to instead showing people that a future as a mere “region” of the UK will be a continuing succession of betrayals and gross mismanagement, larded with a litany of cynical false promises.

      Next time we need to put the BritNats firmly on the back foot with hard challenges to their damned kleptocratic Union, based on a readily-provable catastrophic track record of careless and incompetent mismanagement and downright theft. And not just over Brexit either.

    470. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 23:23,

      Not to forget all the readily-provable BritNat lies told in 2014 and thereafter either.

    471. Robert Peffers says:

      @wull says: 18 March, 2019 at 8:20 pm:

      ” … I hope the meds do suit you, and that you continue to feel much better.”

      I’ll tell you something, wull. There is no way I will ever forget to take the meds on time. The very thought of that agony gives me nightmares.

      ” … And that the trike turns out to be as useful – and even enjoyable – as it sounds.” It will, I was a great one for cycling at one time. The sport was not really well known but was quite something. Believe it or not – Cross Country Cycle Racing.

      The bikes were stripped down to just a frame, two wheels, single fixed gear and a back peddle brake. The bike was more on you than you were on the bike. Over fences, through or over hedges and over rivers. Ach! We were all bloomin mental, but we sure as hell were fit.

    472. Benhope says:

      Sorry to hear that you are suffering from trigeminal neuralgia, Robert.Glad to hear that the pain killers are providing some relief. I have a friend who has the condition and he is struggling to find any effective pain control from various drugs.

      On a more positive note a female acquaintance was cured of the condition by acupuncture on our wonderful NHS.

      As others have said, thank you for the education, and we very much need you for the final push.I feel a very powerful surge of goodwill to help you get better coming from all wingers.

    473. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 23:29,

      I just hated those blasted back-pedal brakes. They would bring you to a sudden halt as soon as you let up pedalling for an instant.

      Possibly the origin of the term “back-pedalling”, since with the introduction of the blessed freewheel, backpedalling had no effect except make a lovely whirring sound.

      But I digress…

    474. Flying_Scotsman says:

      Apologies if this has already been asked (I am always a day or so behind on the comments).
      If Bercow is using archaic rules from an English parliament long since deceased (in 1707, or so they would have us believe). Doesn’t this just underline the fact that they have usurped the UK parliament as their own English parliament.

      ….or more likely, were they just bullshitting us all along?

    475. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 March, 2019 at 8:20 pm:

      ” … Hope they get a good handle on that ailment soon.”

      Strange thing, Robert, but from the first pill the pain just vanished. It was like a miracle. Now i don’t say it has gone. It has a feel about it like a very severe electric shock but the problem is that even a slight breeze blowing against your face, it usually only affects one side, is enough to trigger it.

      Now think about it – you cannot blow your nose, scratch an itch, pull clothes over your head or even wash your face or take a shower. Not kidding, even blinking an eye had you suffering pain that few people will ever suffer. Oh! And chewing was out.

      I haven’t had it long enough to know if it will have episodes even if I continue the medication. one thing sure I’ll not forget to take the pills and capsules.

      i well understand why they call it Suicide Headaches. However, at lest for now the meds are working and my GP has not told me if the first blood tests indicated any problems. Seems they can cause some problems with the blood for some sufferers. The GP is good and doesn’t believe in not telling patients the full truth.

    476. CameronB Brodie says:

      I recently had a touch of the old neuralgia, brought on by bad teeth. Well, I’m Scottish. Anyway, apparently the pain it generates is rated by the boffins as one of the most intensely painful experiences possible. Get well soon Robert. 😉

    477. Terry says:

      O/T or is it? Alan partridge tonight with his doppelgänger – Irish Alan. After a rendition of Sweet Sixteen he launched into Come out ye Black and Tans. The dup will be fizzing. Alan P heard to comment “it’s like an advert for the IRA”.

      And on the day before police Scotland look ready to send police officers to Northern Ireland.

    478. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 23:52,

      Yes, serious meds rarely come without potential side-issues, as I know from (different) personal experience. It was that bigger picture I had in mind. But I’m glad you seem to have already had a fair measure of relief, and nothing else obvious besides. May it continue to be so.

      Step-by-step, eh..?

    479. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 18 March, 2019 at 8:23 pm;

      ” … All my best for improved health.”

      I’m going to have to say thanks folks for all the good wishes but there is one other effect of the meds. They can, and do, cause the patient to feel rather more sleepy than before. So far it hasn’t been a great problem for me as it doesn’t cause me to drop off at inconvenient times. It does though make me need more sleep than before. Not a bad thing for an insomniac.

      So I’ll have to just thank everyone who wised me well a collective thank you as I have taken the night capsule and I’m struggling to stay awake. Night – Err! Morning all.
      Wings is all the better for your input.
      @Petra
      Ah Ken! Ah Ken! …but oils well that ends well

    480. sandy says:

      Look after your health, Mr, Peffers. We need you to keep those self-opinionated know-all ignoramuses in order: but please ignore HYFUD. The sooner he is removed from this blog, the better.

      Methinks they threw away the wrong bit at birth.

    481. remo says:

      @ silverdarling 10.17
      I hope you don’t mind but I copied your comment to make a heading for an article about Corbyn and the kebabs to put on facebook to enlighten some of my Labour voting dopey pals.

    482. Valerie says:

      Mr Peffers
      Stay well and look after yourself.

      Re. Nicola’s letter, she didn’t miss and hit the wall. Hope there’s more to come.

    483. Gary says:

      It proves again (the polls showing 20% leads) just how inaccurate polling actually IS

      Polling only ever reaches the type of people who are willing to participate (well, obviously!) and those people tend to have a) more time on their hands and, b) strong opinions, usually to the right of centre, and unionist.

      Someone in government will have analysed this to death already. They will have decided, as you have, that the WBB would at LEAST have been a contributing factor to changing opinion, they would further decide that this website in an important influencer in Scottish public political opinion.

      Therefore it takes absolutely NO stretch of the imagination to realise that THIS is why the site is targeted for DOS attacks, YouTube complaints, press attacks etc etc. The full weight, not just of the political establishment, but of arms of government like The Integrity Initiative, GCHQ and the 77th Brigade are being used (abused) to quash the voice of ACTUAL public opinion and proper debate including this very site.

      We don’t live in a country where we have freedom of speech anymore…



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