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Wings Over Scotland

The Great Coincidence

Posted on March 17, 2019 by

Several media outlets today relate a story from BBC Scotland’s fascinating three-part documentary of the indyref, revealing that secret UK government polling in the first week of September 2014 gave Yes a lead even bigger than the famous 51-49 one published by the Sunday Times on the 7th.

And naturally we couldn’t help wondering what might have caused it.

Because polling had been remarkably flat through almost the entire campaign. Here, for example, are YouGov’s indyref polls for the year preceding September 2014:

And nothing all that dramatic happened politically after that point which would explain the sudden turnaround. Even Alex Salmond’s universally-agreed victory in the second TV debate against Alistair Darling only caused a short temporary blip in the Yes vote which had reverted by the time of the two polls which put Yes in front:

But outside of televised politics, there was ONE thing.

The Wee Blue Book was launched online on the 11th of August, and the first tranche of 300,000 print editions hit streets all over Scotland in the first week of September. And every single polling company shows noticeable shifts in the polling trajectory at exactly those two points.

There’ll never be any way of knowing for sure whether those changes were causation or mere correlation, of course. But the synchronicity is quite uncanny.

Just a week before the launch of the WBB, a YouGov poll for the Sun reported a No lead of 20 points. The first three polls after the WBB came out (and before the second Salmond-Darling debate) cut that to an average of just 8.7 points.

The first five polls after the print edition started reaching voters (carefully targeted as far as humanly possible at undecideds, the sort of people who’d never have dreamed of visiting Wings Over Scotland to download the digital edition) slashed that No lead to an average of just 3 points, including the first public poll to show Yes in front.

And we now know that including the UK government’s secret poll, the average a few days into September was just 1.8 points.

In fact, of the 20 (public) polls before the release of the Wee Blue Book, TWELVE gave No a double-digit lead, including margins of 20, 19, 18 and 17 points.

Of the 20 published polls after the WBB, only ONE (which was from before the print edition went out) reached double figures, and only three were higher than 6 points.

Something certainly put the Unionists into a blind panic where nothing else had notably shifted the direction of polls in two years. If it was the WBB, it’ll never be acknowledged by history, because the media despise Wings with all their hearts and politicians don’t like to admit that events were influenced by things they didn’t control.

So we’ll have to leave you to form your own views on what it might have been.

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841 to “The Great Coincidence”

  1. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Gary @ 00:45

    b) strong opinions, usually to the right of centre, and unionist.

    (c) some have been known to lie about it, and
    (d) they invariably turn out to vote, unlike far too many of their opponents.

    Of course we still have freedom of speech. The print media included. =roll eyes=

    What we clearly don’t have is equal opportunity of access.

    Except for a degree of obligatory concession from the broadcast media during campaigns. (Otherwise it wouldn’t look too good to the interested outside world.)

  2. Cactus says:

    X days remaining to go EU Citizen’s of Scotland.

    And by great coincidence…

    A new leaf is coming.

  3. nycgype says:

    Agree above with what Gary says. Unfortunately all this great work makes you an undoubted target as we can see from your treatment so far.

    I’m sure you’re already doing all these things but please ensure that all your WBB material, distribution plans etc are backed up in multiple locations, including jurisdictions outside the easy reach of UK/US snooping. Ensure that other people can access it in case you are unavailable.

    Make sure you have backup printing options.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see raids, attempts to wipe data, printer ‘problems’, mail distribution ‘problems’ (if that route is used). Basically anything that can go wrong may well do with a little help from our friendly security services (wave)…..

  4. yesindyref2 says:

    Damn, I really am thick as tho short planks. In the UKSC ruling on the EU Continuity Bill there was one thing in the Bill which wasn’t lawful at the time, and that puzzled me as it was fairly obviously not lawful when looking at it, as it exceeded the authority of the ministers. Why would the SG and Wolffe make such a mistake? Short answer, it wasn’t – it ensured the Bill would be challenged.

  5. Petra says:

    Are the Unionist politicians at Holyrood daft or what? They don’t seem to know what’s reserved / devolved. Or do they?


    Robert just reading about your latest hellish health issue. I hope this has now been resolved for you. Meanwhile I’m sending you all my best wishes for a full recovery and a great big thank you for all the good work that you continue to do on here X

  6. Petra says:

    We’ve heard about Big T planning to use HenryV111 laws and now Bercow using another from the 17th century, both of which predate the Treaty of the Union.

    It states in the Treaty of the Union Article XXV that “all prior laws and statutes following the Union should cease, become void (with caveats right enough)”, or words to that effect. Mentioned under ‘Provision for Amendment.’ Third paragraph. Is this another breach of the Treaty of Union?

  7. dom says:

    The default position for Brexit is to leave on the 29th march.

    That is meant to be the legal option and surely would have to stand unless that ruling is overturned by Parliament.

    But they openly admit that they would not have time to bring in a new ruling.

    The Supreme Court would probably be asked by right wing Brexiteers to make a ruling on this.

    Just thought I would throw that into the mix.

  8. Petra says:

    BBC news:- England warned that it could run out of clean water within the next 25 years due to climate change and the rise in population.

    Seems our Scottish water will be worth more than our Scottish oil. Too poor?

  9. Skintybroko says:

    Best wishes to Robert, get well soon we need your regular insight in helping to destroy the trolls and provide us with valuable information for the push ahead. Be interested in your take on Petra’s observations above

  10. Dr Jim says:

    Social media’s bad and we’ve got to stop it says the mainstream media
    Social media’s responsible for all the terrible stuff that goes on, tax the companies more says the mainstream media

    Maybe if the mainstream media did its job honestly and correctly or if the politicians didn’t get away with saying whatever they like and getting away with it there might be a lot less angry people on social media expressing themselves in the same way as the people they watch on the telly and see in the papers every day

    Every time an idiot like Boris Johnson says or does something hundreds of his supporters will take to social media and exaggerate it even worse, then the hundreds of people opposing them take to social media and do the same in reverse, just take a five minute look at what the Daily Mail prints every day, it’s a hate machine

    Social media to blame for everything? I don’t think so
    Without our very poor performing bad mainstream media in the first place there’d likely be less bad social media amplifying it

    God save us all from the creators of evil when they become righteous about the evil they caused

  11. Skintybroko says:

    Spot on Dr Jim

  12. Dorothy Devine says:

    Dr Jim , my thoughts entirely.

    I listened to a bit of ITV news the other day bewailing social media , blaming it for ‘fake ‘ news and thought of all the lying by omission , plain lying and not correcting or questioning the lies of others.

    I thought of the newspapers and their lying headlines many of which I would consider incitement but printed by them in the Uriah Heap manner , more in sorrow than in anger.

    I thought of the whistleblowers having to go into hiding so that the establishment couldn’t ‘disappear’ them.

    I thought of the ‘ everyone else is bad and corrupt EXCEPT us in the UK and USA ‘ and the unchallenged sabre rattling.

    And I came to the conclusion that the MSM is utter ordure.

    It deserves neither our ears nor our money.

  13. Nana says:


    UK Government paid Youngs £1.3m to move the Pinney’s jobs to England Scottish Government pays £1.7m to invest in the site

    Legislation will protect Scots who access healthcare in Europe – Freeman

    Police in Scotland will be ready to respond to any emergencies during an “unprecedented set of circumstances” following Brexit, a senior officer has said.

  14. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT Mother nature came into my tiny urban garden yesterday in the shape of a sparrowhawk – the world is one speug shorter.

  15. Nana says:

    More Europeans with Scottish partners and children, are forced to leave Scotland, or lose European pensions and disablement allowances.
    This is “Constructive Deportation”.
    Make their lives too poor, miserable and impossible to continue here, so they have to leave for their birthplace, just to have the bare minimum pension benefits.

  16. Golfnut says:

    @ yesindyref2

    Well spotted.

  17. Nana says:

    New Licensing Round West of Scotland to Open Up Supermassive Oil Fields Where 100 Years of Oil Predicted

    If Bercow is using English Law, to prevent a “British Brexit” – how does that affect Scotland one should be asking, when the law predates the act of union, effectively breaking it.

    Exactly how many times can May bring this deal back to the Commons?

    John Bercow blew the whole thing apart.

  18. Nana says:

    Where is EU post-Bercow intervention? Quick thread after chats with senior officials in Bxl and EU capitals 1/

    Interserve given ‘public contracts worth £660m in run-up to collapse’
    Claim follows reports of plan to nationalise operations in event of firm going into liquidation

  19. Nana says:

    I’ve taken a very candid look at Brexit already on many occasions. Now it’s time to turn the spotlight on what revoking Article 50 and staying in the EU would be like in practice. No holds barred.

    The Queen could prorogue Parliament to end Brexit deadlock
    MPs have been openly discussing proroguing Parliament early in order to end the Brexit deadlock.

  20. ScottieDog says:

    “BBC news:- England warned that it could run out of clean water within the next 25 years due to climate change and the rise in population.”

    I remember having a debate with someone about resources in 2014. They actually rolled their eyes when I started talking about resources. “Here we go again. We are sick of hearing about the resources argument” the said. They laughed louder when I talked about water.

    It is quite incredible and some achievement that economists have managed (via the bbc etc) to brainwash people to such an extent that they think resources irrelevant.
    The U.K. government, MOD etc are well aware of England’s resource deficit which is why this could be a very dirty fight.

  21. Ken500 says:

    When 4g is improved in Shetland. Tavish Scott, lord of the manor, will be out of favour. The people will find out more. Thanks to Wings etc. Download the WBB. It was downloaded, viewed, and passed on.

    More Tory mess and shambles. Labour sychophants. LibDem child abusers. It will all end in tears. Greeting face and vacant coupons. Westminster at the state of collapse. What a state. To state the obvious.

    Aye Mr Peffers get on yer bike. Keep taking the meds to better health. The efforts appreciated. An inspiration. Keep strong. Can just picture it? Free wheeling doon the road. An advert for people power. Not paddy power and the Poll getting it wrong all the time. (Deliberately) .

    Scotland free wheeling to success. People can’t wait.

    Another day, Another Tory Brexit scandal. What a mess.

  22. Ken500 says:

    Here’s Nana. With the brilliant links. A golden star. Thanks

  23. Dr Jim says:

    Fresh water in London has become a serious problem because they can’t keep using ground water as it’s destabilising the bedrock and London is sinking, already parts of Cambridgeshire are 9 feet below sea level, so eh one big wave

  24. @Nana,

    `If Bercow is using English Law, to prevent a “British Brexit” – how does that affect Scotland one should be asking, when the law predates the act of union, effectively breaking it. `

    was thinking the same when i watched it,

    how can the Speaker invoke a precedent for the UK parliament from 1604,when the UK parliament did not exist,

    anyone got any answers.

  25. Breeks says:

    If Westminster decides to request an extension to Article 50, but Europe refuses, and thus to avoid a cliff edge Brexit, Westminster decides its only option is to revoke Article 50 completely, isn’t Westminster bound by the precedent in Gina Millar Case to require a Parliamentary debate and Commons majority to revoke Article 50?

    A question… How much actual time would this procedure take, and thus, at what point does crashing out on 29th become technically inevitable?

    Given the prevailing madness, I wouldn’t like to predict whether there would or would not be a majority in favour of revoking Article 50, but it seems self evident there would have to be one, and sufficient time in the Commons to determine that there was.

    Is 10 days adequate time to do this? Don’t forget, Westminster would need to formally request an extension, allow 27 individual nations of Europe at least some time to deliberate extending Article 50 before (in this scenario) deciding against it. And then debate revoking Article 50 in Westminster, not extending it. Don’t forget too, there is the longer two year deferred Brexit option which hasn’t a snowballs chance but is surely good for wasting a couple of days of hollow rhetoric.

    Suddenly 10 days doesn’t seem very long at all. We should prepare ourselves for groundrush. That’s a parachuting term for when you think you’ve plenty time to assess your drift and adopt the appropriate landing position, but the ground suddenly rushes up to meet you and catch you unprepared.

    It would seem that revocation of Article 50, even hypothetically, will already go right down to the wire, and that’s assuming Westminster starts now, … yet I don’t see the initiative to fully revoke Article 50 even being discussed.

    It’s not the revocation of Article 50 which troubles me. It seems insignificant frankly. In the time it takes Westminster to revoke a deadline, I want the Scottish Government to deliver a Nation back to its people. We’ve got the same 10 days.

    Finally, I’d add my own best wishes for your better health Robert Peffers. To be honest, I’ve deliberated saying nothing. Not because the well wishing is insincere, it isn’t, but because you’d think it was and be annoyed. But what the hell. I genuinely wish you well Robert, and you can take it or leave it and add your own salt to taste. Get well soon regardless.

  26. Nana says:

    1. At every stage of the Brexit process the Government has made a bad decision. If Brexit is delayed or stopped it will be the Government’s responsibility. [Thread]

    Erasmus scheme in chaos as UK students left in limbo

    Brexit: the worst is yet to come

    Ian Blackford on newsnight

  27. Footsoldier says:

    Scottish water will be next up for grabs.

  28. dom says:


    Questions questions.

    I think that if the Supreme Court was asked to rule on the 29th march leaving date, they would say that that is the legal date set by Parliament and it stands.

  29. Nana says:

    Morning Scot @ 8.12am

    Those of us with an SNP mp should be asking them that question.

  30. @Nana,

    been tweeting,

    `how can the Speaker invoke a precedent for the UK parliament from 1604,when the UK parliament did not exist,`

    to as many political and political media as i can,hoping for an answer,

    i am fairly ambivalent about the rulling,i just like to know the hows and whys of things.

  31. Nana says:

    Mike Russell off down south

    DExEU Sec, @SteveBarclay saying the only difference between MV1 and MV2 was the further advice from the Attorney General; this suggests the gov’t have identified a workaround for Bercow’s ruling overnight. Expect Cox to issue some further advice before next vote.

  32. Colin Alexander says:

    English parliament laws because it is the English parliament in all but name only.

    The UK Govt and House of Lords and House of Commons rule over Scotland by the sovereignty of England’s parliament.

    Where does that “sovereignty” come from? The sovereignty of the Queen of England.

    Except, she’s not Scotland’s sovereign. So how can England’s parliament be sovereign over Scotland by the power of a “foreign” sovereign?

    Why the SNP or anyone else has not challenged this, instead of arguing the toss about Sewel Convention etc is only something they could answer.

    My only explanation is that all MPs and MSPs take an oath or affirmation of allegiance to the Queen ( of England).

    So what you might say, it’s all just theoretical stuff.

    No, it’s no. It’s because of that same sovereignty principle that Mr Blair and his cronies were never prosecuted for the illegal Iraq War and the many thousands of needless deaths during and after that war.

    To prosecute Mr Blair would mean prosecuting the Queen.

    England and the people of England are not our rulers or oppressors, the Crown of England is. The Crown of England also oppresses the people of England.

    We should throw off the chains of slavery and get out of this English Crown dictatorship that pretends to be a democracy.

    Then we can hope the people of England and Wales will do the same.

  33. Ken500 says:

    The population in the developed world is falling over all. It is in the underdeveloped world it is rising because people need more children to survive. Increased poverty. Illegal wars. Illegal sanctions. Destablizing people causing mass migration.

    In the developed world people consume more but limits are on population expansion, (underlining?). The population in the over consumption areas is controlled (by choice or coercion).The over consumers numbers are falling, The graph will soon overlapped. A population peak than fall? It could be managed. Underdeveloped countries could get better off and afford a better health system. There will be better health and contraception advice and less people in poverty. The Pill etc 1960’s. Changed society and the world economics. Less need for the guilt trip. The human race is quite enterprising.

    China enforced ‘one child’ policy has led to an imbalance in society. It is now being relaxed. 2 children? If people are given the choice and the means. They limit their fertility from choice. Two children, one of each? becomes the norm. Three or non at all. Many people are no longer conceiving. Unless for economic reasons. ie to help keep people in their old age. Within some society or social structures. Gives people more freedoms. Equal rights, improved health and life span.

    Absolute poverty will be overcome in a few years. Still much to do.

    Hans Rosling, Swedish died age 68 in 2017. Too soon.

    If Scotland does not achieve Independence.. There will be no one left in Scotland because of Westminster dangerous, damaging centrist policies. It has only improved since Devolution. Rage against machine. They have taken so much out of Scotland. Taxing Scotland (highly) for their illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Edward 1, Treaty of Union, Iraqi invasion, Vow. All illegal terms broken even before the ink was dry.

    Lie, after lie, after lie. Totally illegal. Iraq War, Dunblane, Lockerbie Keith secret for 100 years,

    People in Scotland will have no future. London. S/E will be more, totally highly congested. Scotland is half empty because of Westminster unionist secret, illegal conspiracy and lies. Totally against every Law. International and otherwise. Total lack of democracy from the Westminster sychophants. Evel. Lie, after lie, after lie. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. They could not make a bigger mess. Being exposed for all to see. An international laughing stock.

  34. @Colin,

    `English parliament laws because it is the English parliament in all but name only.`

    we all know that,but the speaker has, in my view, taken it from De facto and presented it to the UK parliament as De jure,

    my opinion, as someone who has a BSC and a SSC and a black belt in dominoes.

  35. Contrary says:

    Scot Finlayson – I have seen it commented that Bercow showed precedent (that’s how the Westminster nonsense runs) from 1920s for not voting on the same thing in the same session – the precedent just originated in 1604, and that seems to be all that is being reported, but note they always say ‘originated in 1604’. Anyway, it has been used in the current uk parliament. The U.K. Government has broken the treaty of union so many times over, and devolution, they are a bunch of charlatans, but this one isn’t a big deal, just parliamentary procedure by the looks of it.

  36. Iain mhor says:

    @Scott Finlayson 8:47am

    Short answer is all the prior English ‘laws’ were kept on and incorporated in the new parliament (with a few amendments to accomodate Scotland. Well, in reality no amendments – just ‘if it crops up we’ll amend it…maybe)

    Longer bit : The new parliament and creation of GB couldn’t spring an entire codified set of rules into being from a standing start and clean slate on day 1. England’s ‘template’ was used and to be modified where necessary (refer @Petra links upthread) it is where one of the arguments comes from, that the Parliament of Great Britain (subsequently UK &cetera) is a continuation of the English Parliament and that Scotland was extinguished.
    Some argue both Nations were extingushed, some say neither.
    The reality at the time though, was that there was no great material change for the Kingdom of England, its Crown and Parliament. It found itself with a few Scottish tramps begging on its benches and modified the odd act here and there, but it was business as usual under a new name…on official documents at least.

  37. Breeks says:

    Nana says:
    19 March, 2019 at 8:40 am

    Looks like Govt shaping up to bring back meaningful vote anyway – and dare the Speaker to rule it out of order.

    Hahaha. I joked about the EU replacing Michel Barnier with Professor Van Helsing, the very man to call when ugly decaying things just simply refuse to die and stay dead.

    I’m sure there’s a quip about the ham theatrics of Geoffrey Cox and Rees Mogg and a Hammer House Horror movie, but it would be too easy. Westminster is just a cheap B rated horror movie and I’m just hoping Scotland finishes its popcorn then gets up and walks out before the final credits. We know how it ends after all.

  38. Gary45% says:

    Dr Jim@8.11
    I’ve been saying this for years.
    I look on London as an oasis, the only problem is, when an oasis gets to the point of over use, it dries up and dies and the people move on, London and now the South East has been allowed to continue sucking the life out of the rest of the country.
    When we use the term “spread the wealth, business/commerce” the “city” simply ignores and demands more resources at the expense of the rest of us.(The we can’t have anything past the Watford Gap can we mentality.)
    Comments above already been made of Scottish Water under threat, its no joke, the day will come, hopefully we will be Independent by then, if not? then I hope some of the Scottish citizens (proud Scot buts!!) develop a back bone.

  39. Breeks says:

    Nana says:
    19 March, 2019 at 8:49 am
    Mike Russell off down south

    Some very thought provoking links to today Nana… stop it! I need to get work. Lol

    Wee point of order… If Theresa May’s bungs to the DUP have been wrong footed and frustrated by the Speaker trashing the very vote which the DUP were being bunged to support,… doesn’t the pace of development pull some of the rug out from under Nicola’s letter too?

    Even though the collision between May and the DUP is outrageous, it surely falls away to irrelevance when we finally get around to hitting the big red Sovereignty button. We “seem” a tad pedestrian when we only have 10 days to save the world.

    Couldn’t we wrong foot and frustrate the forces of Dark Money and steal a march on their clandestine intentions by going for the Constitutional jugular? 10 days… tick tock…

  40. Nana says:

    Morning Breeks, Big T may be standing on a few unstable rugs at the moment.

    German Europe Minister Michael Roth calls on UK to make up its mind on Brexit saying “Dear friends in London please deliver”. Says the mood on EU side is increasingly bad and patience is wearing thin. Europe Mins meeting in Brussels ahead of Summit this week

  41. Welsh Sion says:

    If it comes to water shortages in England, we in Cymru should be naturally worried, too. Yes, there might be an opportunity to make a profit (for some) by selling H20 eastwards – the control of Welsh water supplies have only fairly recently been devolved – but more likely, valleys and communities could be flooded in order to supply England.

    Think of the 1950’s and 1960’s. Remember Liverpool Corporation and Capel Celyn?

    Cofiwch Dryweryn.

  42. ronnie anderson says:

    Robert Peffers Good morning Mr P I hope you have woken up on the right side of being in reasonably good health given your new tribulations . Onwards & Upwards Robert we need every man/woman & their dug to be on the ball in the coming weeks/months .

    All the bestest Robert .

  43. One_Scot says:

    Lol, “Fireman Sam” of all people has broken the Internet.

  44. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana with two standing out for me this morning, that is in relation to the vote at Westminster which will lead to the cutting of free school meals for around 1 million poor children in England.

    It would seem that Scottish Tories (although I can’t see Mundells name on the list) and the DUP supported Big T and the rest of her party. You know Big T who made out at the onset of her becoming PM that she was concerned about the poor. Aye right.

    Anyway the point of this post is that I thought that Scottish politicians couldn’t vote on English only matters (EVEL) …. unless Big T wants them to it would seem … and doesn’t this just tell you what they would be doing in Scotland if they had full control? Next time they bleat on about poverty in Scotland Nicola Sturgeon should throw this in their face.

    Additionally Scottish Labour politicians seem to be at odds with their colleagues south of the border because didn’t they vote against the SNPs efforts to implement school meals in Scotland for certain age groups?

    As to the DUP well seemingly this will have no impact on children in NIreland, as for one the cap level is double that of England.

    If ever there was a clear sign (another one) that we have to get out of this mess this is it.

    I’m on my IPad so posting one of your links only in relation to this. The other can be found at Rock and rhetoric at 8:40am.


    @ ScottieDog at 8:00am. ……. “Scottish water.”

    Don’t you know that we’ve got nought going for us here in Scotland, ScottieDog? We’re too wee, poor and the population is too stupid to go it alone. No oil, gas, electricity, no renewable energy of any kind, no food, no water and nobody wants to come here. We live in an ugly wee country filled to the brim with drunken, imbecilic thugs who are all living on benefits. Benefits paid out by our neighbours in England. And how do I, and more so English people, know because the BBC says so. After Westminster the BBC is Scotlands number one enemy, IMO.

  45. Nana says:

    Morning Robert P, sorry to read you are under the weather. Wishing you a speedy recovery xx

    Last for today

    Take a wee stroll with John Bercow as he heads off to work this morning

    I’m off for a wee stroll myself 🙂

  46. Abulhaq says:

    Something you are not likely to see in the filtred British media.
    Isn’t he supposed to be a tyrant, unpopular, about to topple or be toppled according to Alastair Burt, the Foreign Office hawk?
    Another example of ‘Anglo-Saxon’ hubris and seeing the world through a flawed prism.
    The resilience of peoples and countries in the Near East is a lesson to Scotland. There is no such thing as being on the ‘losing side’.

  47. Dr Jim says:

    It’s amazing the amount of money the right wing of politics is prepared to spend in order to prevent democracy breaking out

    In 2014 the right wing wasn’t bothered about Scotland’s little revolution because they were convinced they had it won, until they realised they didn’t then all hell broke loose and oceans of money was spent in order to claw back their power, politicians leapt into the air, the BBC were tasked with the job of stifling debate, newspapers were given their job of creating hatred and division until phew! the right wingers frauded the whole thing over the line

    Here we are in 2019 and they’re doing it again because they expected to lose this time, but now there’s even more money lawyers politicians strategists newspapers employed in finding a way not to allow democracy to flourish, because to the right wingers there’s nothing more terrifying than the public who create the wealth of a country having a say in how that wealth’s distributed, and that in the minds of these right wing nut jobs is unthinkable

    How can it be right in their minds that ordinary people decide things, it’s like soldiers having at each other without officers telling them when and how to die because in the midst of the fight they might just decide not to kill each other, chaos I tell you, chaos

    Have another vote? not on your life they say, two precedents, 1 we might lose this time God forbid, 2 will lay it wide open to those sweaty socks in the North to scream precedent and we can’t allow that don’t you know

    So what do the right wingers do, well more money is usually the answer so there’s that plus there’s blackmail of the constitutional kind and that involves Labour and the DUP who are bigger Unionists than the Tories because with Tories it’s mainly about money and power, money being the big main thing, and a bit of prestige thrown in, but Labour they’re the dirty workers prepared to get into the sewer work the Tories set them, so if you’re depending on them to save the day don’t because they won’t, they’ll assist in every way possible to stamp as hard as they can all over Scotland then blame the Tories anyway

    The EU will wait and do nothing until Scotland does something then the EU will do a lot just like they’re doing for Ireland
    Then the world will look forward to not calling England the United Kingdom anymore and they’ll get their proper name

    Create your own space for that……………..the dots are not significant maybe a bit like the remainder of what Scotland leaves behind will be very much less so

  48. Sinky says:

    Great article by Finn O’Toole in Irish Times “Are the English ready for self government”

    Also Peter Grant Tweet on 1604 Westminster convention and ignoring Act of Union

  49. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I reckon, Lino has now kicked the Brexit can as far down the road as she possibly can. She has run out of options.

    Her best course of action now would be to revoke Article 50 and tell the EU, look, we made a mistake, we are staying in – then immediately resign as PM, leaving the Tory Party to implode in trying to sort-out the mess.

    But, it’s Lino and the Tory Party we are talking about here, the sensible option is the last one they will take. This could get even messier, if that is possible.

  50. mike cassidy says:

    1)Water. Water everywhere.

    And not a drop to sell to England.

    2)If Bercow had made his ruling based on something that happened in the Scottish Parliament circa 1604, English MPs’ heads would have exploded!

    3)They’ll be coming for Postman Pat next.

    4)Nana. That prostate cancer test story will play havoc with the selfidentifying mob.

  51. call me dave says:


    Queen of finding the mixing links. 🙂

    Thanks for the J. Freeman article on health care for Scots abroad in the EU. Heard it yesterday but you have it in black and white

  52. call me dave says:

    Jings! Tablet text… ‘Missing links’.

  53. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob Mack says: 18 March, 2019 at 8:41 pm:

    ” … Mind avoid spicy food and cut down on tea/coffee.”

    My GP hasn’t mentioned anything about diet yet but I have so many troubles diet is a problem anyway. I love real coffee, not the instant stuff, but it has been off the menu for some time. However that was before this present setback started.

    At the moment I’ve had no more attacks since the new medications began. I’m just hoping that will be the future but I’m not daft enough to think it will never come back. For example there are small twinges first thing in the morning and last thing at night. These are both when the different medications are due to start. So far I have only had fairly mild twinges before the meds take effect.

    No more late nights or sleep ins for me. Let me put it this way at bed time I’m very careful not to blow my nose, wipe my eye or touch my face and at waking up I’m also careful of not pulling any clothes over my head and don’t shower until after the meds take effect.

  54. Ken500 says:

    There will be water in Scotland unless it stops raining. Or climate changing. Getting colder and freezing? It still can thaw. The population underlying will peak and fall. Manageable. The overconsumers are in decline. Non conceiving,

    Scotland sells the water by the bottle full. Independent could charge more. Same with fuel and energy. Scotland being ripped off big time. Lost £Billions Scotland surplus in fuel and energy pays more despite being nearer the source. Scotland should be paying 10% less per unit for parity. Scotland uses more because it is colder but produces more. 25%+ in surplus. Plus the rest.

    May wants to destroy the Scottish economy to facilitate Brexit. Another Tory fake. Take, take, take. Greedy multimillionaires. Enough is never enough. They can’t take it with them. Christian? Hypocrites.

  55. mike cassidy says:

    Thanks to Nana.

    Fintan O’Toole is a real find.

    Another cracking bit of analysis.

    “If, as the Brexiteers do, you imagine yourself to be an oppressed colony breaking away from the German Reich aka the European Union, perhaps you do end up with a pantomime version of the travails of newly independent colonies, including the civil wars that often follow national liberation.”

  56. Robert Peffers says:

    @sandy says: 19 March, 2019 at 12:18 am:

    ” … but please ignore HYFUD. The sooner he is removed from this blog, the better.”

    Ah! sandy, such as HYFUD serve a very useful purpose. They introduce certain topic that the unionists have punted on all medias for centuries. This allows a wee bit of properly argued truth and logical arguments that show their propaganda is wrong.

    For example, how many indy supporters had never given a thought to the dimple fact that the Treaty of Union and it’s Articles of Union were in fact the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom?

    So just how are such as HYFUD going to prove otherwise? They simply cannot and there are a great many more readers of Wings than those that comment and new ones reading Wings every day.

    Here’s the thing – someone who has never given the matter a thought in their life but has just accepted that Westminster were legally sovereign suddenly get the indisputable fact that the United Kingdom is only a union of kingdoms and without the Treaty of Union it does not exist. They also clearly see, often for the first time, that Scotland’s claim, (The Claim of Right), is a 100% legally correct proof that Scotland has every right to end the union – IF A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE GIVE THE SG A MANDATE.

    So HYFUD may be a pain in the wotsit but serves a very useful purpose. Mind you there are several others, a bit more subtle, who are unionist plants claiming to be indy supporters who work tirelessly to undermine the FM/SG/SNP.

    We certainly do not want Wings to become a forum where the Rev starts a topic and we get a long list of comments that boil down to, “Yes! Me Too”.

  57. TD says:

    To all those getting excited about the speaker’s ruling and the fact that it is based on a precedent first set in 1604, can I make a few points.

    1. It is just a fact that the Westminster parliament operates under the rules of the English parliament established before the union. I don’t like this and I don’t like that we are in the union at all, but we are.

    2. Just because a rule is old does not meant that it is not relevant today. Murder has been unlawful for a long time – that does not mean we should do away with the common law which prohibits it.

    3. I understand that the last time the issue of resubmitting a motion to parliament arose was in the 1920s – still nearly a hundred years ago but not 1604. The reason it does not arise very often is because most governments have respected the rule. In any event, until the Fixed Term Parliaments Act came into force, a government which lost a major vote would automatically have resigned and called a general election, so the opportunity to resubmit a motion would not exist. The FTPA has a lot to answer for in terms of the current shambles – and that is legislation from 2011.

  58. Ken500 says:

    Never admit anything without a lawyer.

    Police arrests people on malicious complain on charges that can never come to Court. Keep people detained overnight illegally for mild misdemeanours. On ‘charges’ that can never come to Court. They would be laughed out of Court. It costs millions and clutters up the criminal justice system and can criminalise people. A total waste of time.

    Police, once, just gave a warning, unless it was repeat behaviour. Police and society need diversity, training and information. There are too many people in prison for drink/drug abuse. They should be counselled in proper, ‘one chance’ total abstinence rehab facilities. Cheaper and more effective. To prevent repeat behaviour. Too many people on the spectrum are in prison because of lack of support and understanding. Ignorance of authorities. Especially unionists councils. Wasting money on grotesque monstrosities of no value but not funding proper, essential social services.

  59. Macart says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Sorry to hear about the ailment Robert. Wishing you well.

  60. Robert Peffers says:

    @Valerie says: 19 March, 2019 at 12:36 am:
    ” … Re. Nicola’s letter, she didn’t miss and hit the wall. Hope there’s more to come.”

    Aye! There is something in the air. It isn’t just Nicola either, there has been a great deal more very upbeat speeches made by the SNP MPs at Westminster. Many going totally unreported by the MSM and Broadcasters.

    The mere fact that these go unreported is testament that they are not only correct but important.

    You may not have noticed but I’ve been using the phrase for a while at the end of some comments, “But they don’t want you to know that”. It is the fact that it goes largely unreported that I’m getting at.

  61. Ken500 says:

    In the Middle East etc water is desalinated, taken from the sea. Springs or oasis. In many hot countries, water is imported bottled water and ice. In giant containers. A huge industry worldwide. New plants installed etc,

  62. manandboy says:

    The key phrase in this piece, is ‘as the global order unravels’. It doesn’t take a genius to recognise that Scotland and the rest of the UK is unraveling also.

    There is no longer any reason why anyone in Scotland should be afraid of England, our Imperial Masters. Let the Cringe go, the Union will be no more soon. The writing is on the wall of history. The future for Scotland lies with Independence. The mini-Empire known as the UK, is lying on its death bed. Prepare for the funeral. Some restraint might be called for at the purvey.

    ” Angela Merkel will discuss multilateralism in a speech at the Global Solutions Summit in Berlin today, followed by a panel discussion moderated by Bloomberg Editor-in-Chief John Micklethwait. As the global order unravels, the German chancellor is stuck between a rock and hard place: Trump’s America First policy is forcing her to make an impossible choice between the U.S. — the force behind the country’s modern economic success — and China, the key to its future growth.” from Bloomberg:Brussels edition.

  63. Robert Peffers says:

    @Gary says: 19 March, 2019 at 12:45 am

    ” … We don’t live in a country where we have freedom of speech anymore”

    We never have lived in a country where we had freedom of speech, Gary.

    They sure as hell suppressed Willie McRae’s freedom of speech for one example. However, the MSM and broadcasters have led the public around by the nose for centuries.

    In fact, as I have posted several times, The original BBC was a private company formed by Radio Hams who wanted to create a market to sell, “Wireless sets”. They were promptly given a Royal Charter and were funded by the Westminster Establishment who saw the vale of Wireless Broadcasting for propaganda.

    Thing is The Westminster Establishment were not funding the BBC the public that were getting the propaganda were. The Licence money has always gone into the treasury, not directly to the BBC, and thus the annual BBC grant was from general taxation so it was never just licence payers who funded the BBC.

    Long before the BBC the government funded people to write and distribute political tracts. The author and undercover agent Danial Defoe was just such a government political tract author. Go Google it if you do not believe me,

  64. Luigi says:

    Best Wishes, Robert P.

    You are a vital cog in the indy chain. A real thorn in the BritNats’ sides when they try to troll us and create havoc with their constitutional misinformation.

    Some people don’t like your style, but I say it’s very effective and takes no prisoners. If either side steps out of line, you deal with them equally. I know – I have been on the receiving end a couple of times! The amount of roll abuse you have endured, it amazes me that you keep going, but many of us are so glad that you do. 🙂

  65. Gary45% says:

    Mr Peffers,
    Sorry to hear about your health issues.
    I hope you get all the problems sorted soon.
    look after yourself.

  66. Abulhaq says:

    The British Empire was a good thing.
    A long read, but worth the effort.
    Historically the India Office was the most powerful government department on the planet. Its influence extended to Iraq, the Gulf and the Levant. Its legacy is evident today.
    The mindset that once ran an empire still haunts the corridors of the structure of the British State.
    Conventional holy water and garlic remedies will not expell this troublesome spectre.

  67. galamcennalath says:

    ” Lorry drivers have threatened to block two of the motorways around Bristol if Brexit is delayed. “

    Wit? The insanity of English nationalism is unfathomable! Why would truck drivers WANT Brexit?

  68. A.Bruce says:

    Watch Gordon Ross Indycar today speak about the new Scottish Constitution which is about to be debated in Holyrood. It’s a real eyeopener in information showing how important it is having it in place before brexit and before indyref2.

  69. chicmac says:

    Thanks Nana re Fintan O’Toole’s article, which I was going to post here myself but thought I’d better check your links first 🙂

    A dead pantomime horse, methinks.

    The craziest thing about Brexit is that England, in terms of resources to population ratio, is one of the least secure countries in the World and certainly in the EU.

    It needs to import half its food and drink and is a net importer of raw materials, manufactured goods and energy as well.

    It should be paying for those by at least net exporting high value manufactured goods.

    It should be encouraging the most technically advanced agricultural techniques to reduce its net food imports.

    It should be using on shore wind production, which is cheap, to plug their energy gap.

    The Netherlands, with almost as high a population density as England, does all of those very successfully.

    But England does not. It relies on a large ‘financial services’ sector to plug the GDP PC gap it would otherwise have. But that is a sector which can disappear very quickly, especially in a post Brexit scenario.

    In other words, in what appears to be a rapidly, increasingly, isolationist World, England actually needs the EU more than any other EU country.

  70. Why was May allowed to bring back her deal a 2nd time never mind a3rd ???

  71. Robert Peffers says:

    @ Skintybroko says: 19 March, 2019 at 7:38 am:

    ” … Be interested in your take on Petra’s observations above.”

    I’m playing catch up just now Skintybroko, but the Treaty of Union was being broken before the ink was dry on the paper.

    Westminster opened on 1 May 1707 and assumed itself as the continuing parliament of the Kingdom of England that was legally ended on 30 April 1707.

    The Scots were treated as if they were only observers and the parliament just continued as it did before. For a start Westminster uses English law and much of that is based upon Magna Carta. While Scots Law is largely based upon The Declaration of Arbroath.

    This fact, of course is the reason why the two legal systems are stated in the Treaty of Union as having to be independent forever. Yet Westminster is quoting law from Henry VIII while claiming that the Declaration of Arbroath doesn’t count because it is to old but the Magna Carta is not and can be used against Scotland.

    It is a farce and it always has been. What does all that have to say about devolution? The Union is a union of two equal kingdoms. It is not a union of four countries.

    There really is no legal arguments about all that for the only argument that can, and has, been used against it is that Westminster is sovereign because the English Glorious Revolution of 1688 made the monarchy of the Kingdom of England legally delegate their sovereignty, (divine right of kings), to the parliament of England but the Parliament of England ended on 1 May 1707. Get the picture now, Skintybroko?

    It is all no more than Westminster making itself the Parliament of England and claiming Scotland is their dominion just because they said so. Every bit of it is thus illegal. The problem being that Scotland’s parliament and parliamentarians just accepted that but remember these are the very same parliamentarians who signed the Treaty of Union and got themselves onto the Westminster Gravy Train.

    There has been no political party in Scotland until the SNP got into power, (and the system was designed to prevent that), to prevent Westminster rule.

    The reason being that to legally challenge the Westminster rule requires the Legally Sovereign people of Scotland to use a majority vote to mandate a political party to act with the only alternative being a winning legal challenge in a court that proves the illegality of how Westminster has broken the international law on International treaties.

    Why else did you think that Westminster created a Supreme Court?

    So now you also know why Nicola cannot legally act without having a majority vote by the people of Scotland and you also know why there are unionist agents attempting to force Nicola to act prematurely.

  72. geeo says:


    I am sorry to say this, but you are beginning to seem desperate to be proved right, so you can shout “i told you so”.

    Your wee ‘tick tock’ patter strongly indicates such an attitude from you.

    I previously asked why YOU are right and Scotsgov are wrong in their approach, and you admitted you had no idea what Scotsgov were planning.

    It was then put to you, how did you know the Scotsgov were not planning precisely what you have been punting as the way forward and perhaps, because Scotsgov have had meetings with EU ministers etc, may have better insight into how to approach that subject of Constitutional Sovereignty than perhaps, Breeks from Wings over Scotland btl?

    Yet here you are, still seemingly gloating about how in 10 days YOU can shout “i was right”.

    I doubt you will be, as i also doubt the SNP are about to commit electoral suicide by not having a strong and well worked out plan.

    There has been a huge shift in attitude from ALL SNP politicians over Scotlands future place in the EU recently, Ian Blackford has stated many times (in every speech in fact) recently that: “Scotland WILL NOT be dragged out the EU against the will of the SOVEREIGN people of Scotland”.

    Does that statement seem like it is coming from a party without a very firm plan in place, awaiting deployment ?

  73. Gary45% says:

    gala mc@12.06
    I think “English Nationalism” is now coming home to roost.
    The “Rule Britannia Superiority” mentality which has given generations, an extremely blinkered self superior belief of “everyone being sub-servant to them”, is now being shown to the world.
    The Britannia believers will be happy eating lard whilst wearing their rose tinted spectacles.

  74. ronnie anderson says:

    galamccennalath looks & sounds like a bunch of idiots but i do like this line lol
    (“Don’t worry about the legal side of things, the national organiser is sorting that out.” )

    I was disappointed the Nigel Farage didnae get mentioned LoL .

  75. call me dave says:

    Ooh! The PM is writing a long letter on a short piece of paper to the EU27.

    Words to be disclosed later…

    “Dear John… err!”..etc etc.

  76. Abulhaq says:

    The Union with England is the contemporary Gordian Knot, Scotland awaits an Alexander with the youthful audacity to just cut it.

  77. ronnie anderson says:

    And Tommy will still be shouting this coming Sunday 24th for Nicola to implement the Mandate before the outcome of Brexit is fully known .

  78. TheItalianJob says:

    @Ronnie Anderson At 12.59

    Great video of Tommy Sheridan giving the newscaster the real facts on Scotland, it’s Sovereignty, it’s oil wealth and that we are no way a subsidy junkie the way that has been perpetuated by the MSM in the past.

    I did like Tommy’s stance and lectures during Indyref1 and I look forward to much of the same hard hitting discussions from Tommy during Indyref2.

  79. manandboy says:

    As has been noted several times already, in this article, Fintan O’Toole is required reading. As well as revealing to us in Scotland an old colonial trick of persuading an Independence-thinking colony that they weren’t ready to govern themselves – how successful has that been in Scotland – he pulls back the screens around the English horse, just fallen, to reveal not an injured animal, but a dead one.

    Our Imperial Master is dead. Scots take note. Doubt no longer, but believe.

    “Brexit is a dead horse, a form of nationalist energy that started to decompose rapidly on June 24th, 2016, as soon as it entered the field of political reality. It can’t go anywhere. It can’t carry the British state to any promised land. It can only leave it where it has arrived, in a no-man’s land between vague patriotic fantasies and irritatingly persistent facts. But equally, because of the referendum result, the British state can’t get down off the dead horse and has to keep flogging it.”

  80. ronnie anderson says:

    The Italian Job
    I’ve had many discussions with Tommy & I admire the way he gets the message across in interviews re Scotland being the provider of England,s wealth . I disagree with his Implement the mandate mantra & will tell him again should we meet on Sunday .

  81. Fireproofjim says:

    Good for Tommy Sheridan.
    Clear summary of Scotland’s position. I hope the SNP can pur up someone with that spirit to lead the YES campaign.
    Another Tommy comes to mind. – Tommy Shepherd who is cut from the same cloth and who can stand up for himself against the worst of media bias.
    The last campaign suffered from lacklustre leadership and was led by Blair Jenkins who was basically an unknown and rather uninspiring.

  82. Breeks says:

    geeo says:
    19 March, 2019 at 12:44 pm

    I am sorry to say this, but you are beginning to seem desperate to be proved right, so you can shout “i told you so….

    If you want a considered reply Geeo, trying quoting what I actually said, not what you want me to have said to suit your agenda. You’ve been watching a bit too much Laura Kuenssberg I think.

    For the record, who is right and who is wrong is painfully irrelevant unless it’s children swabbling in a playground. I continually push the Constitutional angle because I think it’s the strategy which should be pursued, and there are accordant time sensitive arguments which are manifestly running out of time. If you think this just about bragging rights in the playground, then I forfeit, – such rights are all yours. Go ahead and fill your boots.

    If the SNP are finally warming to the imperative necessity of Constitutional arguments, then rather than fishing around for something to crow about, I am so sorry to disappoint you, but I am instead overjoyed to finally have so much less to gripe about.

  83. Petra says:

    I don’t know all of the ins and outs of the Tommy Sheridan case, however it looked to me as though he committed adultery, then tried to cover it up by lying and it escalated from there. If only he had held his hands up and told his wife the truth. I’m sure the “swingers” allegations would have died down eventually in the press. On the otherhand it looked as though the Establishment employed every dirty trick in the book to bring him down because they knew that he was a real asset to the Independence movement. He was an all talk, all action man, IMO, who worked his socks off for us.

    He’s also a brilliant orator. One of my all time favourite videos was his “Bairns not Bombs” video which just seemed to disappear into the ether, surprise, surprise. He’s also an extremely intelligent guy holding a Degree in Law, Degree in Politics and Economics and a Masters in Social Research. Tragic, to my mind, that’s he’s not at the forefront of the grassroots movement now.

  84. TheItalianJob says:

    Thanks Ronnie

    Good that you are in contact with Tommy. He will be an asset no doubt in Indyref2 if he is given some MSM opportunities to put his thoughts across in an open forum.

  85. TheItalianJob says:

    @Fireproofjim at 1.45pm

    Good points and I agree. We did have a lacklustre leadership leading the Yes come campaign and it had to be supplemented by the SNP hard hitters like Alex Salmond.

    We will need some good harditters to lead us in Indyref2.

  86. Abulhaq says:

    Outside Scotland the country is considered an English colony. No one is really bothered about union treaties and such. De facto Scotland is an English dependency, that’s what they see.
    Britishness and its legalisms have dulled the reason of many on this matter, the leaders of the SNP included.
    The constitutional route is ok if yielding something productive. It has not, as we are stuck in the archaic mechanisms of English political rivalry with so far little sign of release.
    This our Gordian Knot, which some bright fellow is going to have to cut instead of wasting time trying to unravel the strands. Anyone who baulks at that swift resolution is just facilitating the other side.
    If we genuinely want independence it must be with heart, brain and muscle.
    But then I’m just a young New Scot, whit dae a ken?

  87. TheItalianJob says:

    @Petra at 2pm

    Did listen to much of Tommy Sheridan when he was on TV and during clips of him at various debating events around Scotland during Indyref1.

    Very forceful and coherent orator who can argue his points well.

    I remember he used to finish his interviews with news presenters with the phrase something like “Scotland will vote for and achieve its Independence”.

    He was always positive the vote would be for Yes and that’s what was inspiring during all his interviews and presentations.

    He needs to be utilised again in the next Indy Referendum imo.

  88. hackalumpoff says:

    The inner thoughts of Kirstene Hair,

  89. Robert Louis says:

    Petra at 2pm,

    In my opinion, Tommy Sheridan is a king amongst men. He risked a great deal, including jail time, in order to stand up for pennyless folk having their worldy possessions removed from their houses in warrant sales (remember them?). He quite literally took no sh*t, and did not ever back down. In addition, he was the man in Scotland, who put his heart and soul (it wasn’t the labour party) into fighting the poll tax introduced by that lying, twisted, cold-hearted Tory witch Thatcher.

    He stood by his principles at each and every occasion – including standing up against the paid and bribed liars of Murdoch.

    What he does in his private life is absolutely none of my effing business. He could regularly hump (consenting!) goats or donkeys for all I care.

    I think some on the left in Scotland still bad mouth him, because he is head and shoulders better than them by a very large margin.

  90. ronnie anderson says:

    hackalumpoff 2.16 Glaikitness personified lol.

  91. geeo says:

    It ain’t your message Breeks, it is the way you deliver it.

    Go back a few topics and you will see me stating support for your thinking.

    I still think it is a reasonable strategy.

    Where we differ, clearly, is what would be the best timing to deploy any such tactic and the possibility that the SNP has such a plan in motion under the radar as to avoid scuppering opportunities by WM via ‘sleekit’ tactics as witnessed by the Continuity Bill.

    You admit that is possible as you have no idea what Scotsgov/SNP are planning.

    So why do you insist on your doomsday countdown unless your way, and only your way, is employed ?

    The SNP plan will soon be required to break cover, and every indication recently suggests they have a strong, well thought out plan or attack.

    Hell, it may even be your idea, Breeks.

    Whatever the plan, it has been kept under wraps up till now for good tactical reasons.

  92. Luigi says:

    TheItalianJob says:
    19 March, 2019 at 2:06 pm

    We will need some good harditters to lead us in Indyref2.

    Angus Robertson would be a great choice, IMO.

  93. Robert Peffers says:

    @Gary45% says:19 March, 2019 at 12:45 pm@

    ” … The “Rule Britannia Superiority” mentality which has given generations, an extremely blinkered self superior belief of “everyone being sub-servant to them”,

    I wonder, Gary45% if you know where that, “Britannia Rules the Waves”, stems from? Here is a very brief potted history.

    I have often touched upon it several times on Wings. The thing is that it was not the Royal Navy that ruled the waves but the English Mercantile Marine a.k.a. The Merchant Navy.

    These merchants opened up the colonies by looking for new markets and this led to the establishment of colonies. After which Westminster passed, “The English Navigational Acts”. Now you do not often hear about these but they had huge impact on World History.

    What they basically were was English laws that stopped anyone trading with the colonies unless they were either English Merchants or used English merchant ships or their own ships crewed by English crews. This was enforced by both the armed Merchant Ships and the Royal Navy but aided by Privateers.

    The first result of this was to get England involved in wars with several other European nations and in particular that great seagoing nation The Netherlands. All of which involved not only the Royal Navy but the Soldiers of the King/Queen and it led to England getting massive national debts.

    It also led to the London Scot and English undercover agent, William Paterson, instigating a subscription scheme that led to the birth of the, so called, Bank of England, to bail out the English Crown/parliament. After all it was these merchants who got rich from the colonial trade including Opium and slave trade.

    It also led to the English fears of an alliance between the Scots & the French attacking England from the north. The use of the English Navigation Acts against Scotland and ultimately to the forced Treaty of Union.

    Not to mention it contributed to the American War of Independence and William Paterson starting the disastrous, (for Scotland), Darien Expedition, and was used against the Scots to help bankrupt, not Scotland, but the wealthy Scots landowners who were also the Scottish parliamentarians that signed the Treaty of Union.

    So, there you go, the song, “Rule Britannia”, celebrates when the English Merchant Marine, Royal Navy and, “English Privateers”, ruled the waves.

    Note:”A privateer was a private person or private warship authorized by a country’s government by letters of marque to attack foreign shipping.

    Privateers were an accepted part of naval warfare from the 16th to the 19th centuries, they were authorised by all significant naval powers but particularly by England.

  94. Ghillie says:

    Dr Jim @ 10.17 am

    You have a wonderful way with words 🙂

  95. Breeks says:

    Petra says:
    19 March, 2019 at 2:00 pm
    ….. Tragic, to my mind, that’s he’s not at the forefront of the grassroots movement now…

    Scotland once followed a suspected murderer, and outlawed King who was excommunicated by the Pope and Catholic Church to stand its ground before a much larger all conquering English invading army. They didn’t just put their lives on the line for King Robert, but risked eternal damnation for their souls.

    I cannot imagine what thoughts filled the minds of our soldiers on that Bannockburn morning. I think it’s the Lanercost Chronicle which describes the Scottish army as “more Godly” than the English, because the Scots got down on their knees and prayed. Maybe they prayed for themselves and their friends, maybe they prayed for Scotland, but I’d bet every one of them prayed for King Robert.

    I don’t care if Tommy’s morals aren’t as straight as they might be. I don’t care if he bent the truth a wee bit to get himself out of a pickle. I don’t want to find out all the gorey details because frankly I don’t want to know. There are many folks, myself included, who would gladly follow a lieutenant like Tommy Sheridan over the top and beyond because he’s a born leader when leadership is exactly what’s needed. He’s a man of presence, like the gristley old “sarge” who turns scared kids into soldiers and gives them courage to stand their ground when the odds are bleak. Everybody knows, you just don’t ask why he’s still a sergeant.

    All those who think Tommy Sheridan is a liability to the cause, and there are even some who’ve said the same about Rev Stu,… Just stop a minute and think how the BritNat Scottish media, ye olde worlde BBC, might have presented the actions and activities of our own King Robert the Bruce in a Dumfries by-election. Just imagine Gordon Brewer… “So King Robert.., accused of murder and excommunicated by God and the SNP. Surely this is the end of the road for Independence….”

    If you want to know what happens when we’re too “pick and choosy” about our leadership, just away and read about the Battle of Dunbar in 1650. Now there’s a battle which has as much to teach us Scots as Bannockburn does, probably a lot more, I’m sorry to say.

    Tommy is one of us. If you don’t like his back story or rhetoric, just move yourself further down the line a bit so you don’t have to listen. There’s room for us all.

  96. Bob Mack says:

    Just hearing Brexit protestor (for), have occupied the Attorney Generals office demanding he resign and a new one appointed.

    UK is crumbling before our very eyes folks. Once the system breaks down it is very very hard to regain control without Nmartial law

  97. Petra says:

    Totally agree with you TheItalianJob (2:12pm) and Robert Louis (2:39pm) Don’t know about the goats and donkeys right enough, lol. Fought hard against Warrant Sales, the Poll Tax and of course against Trident too. What a guy. Do either of you know who’s behind trying to keep Tommy Sheridan down? Hold him back?


    @ hackalumpoff at 2:16pm ….. Note that Kirstene Hair has just voted to ensure that 1 million poverty stricken kids in England will no longer receive a free meal. How bad is that? Maybe her conscience is bothering her now, that is if she has one.


    @ Robert at 2:50pm ….. Another great history lesson Robert. Thanks for that.

  98. Bob Mack says:

    My I pad is being temperamental today sorry for spelling errors.

    Could government have set this up in order to declare that they are taking control?

  99. galamcennalath says:

    ” EU is in a quandary. It cannot grant an extension to ratify the deal, because the deal cannot be voted on again in the Commons. It cannot grant an extension to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, because the member states have ruled that out. It cannot grant an extension to renegotiate the political declaration, because the UK government has ruled that out. And it cannot grant an extension to permit a referendum, because the government does not intend to hold one and there are currently not enough MPs to legislate for one. “

    No wonder clarity is needed from TMay about the reasons for any extension!

  100. Robert Peffers says:

    @Abulhaq says:19 March, 2019 at 12:56 pm:

    ” … The Union with England is the contemporary Gordian Knot, Scotland awaits an Alexander with the youthful audacity to just cut it.”

    Rubbish! There is nothing Gordian about it. It is a fairly straightforward legal challenge – and that is where the problem comes into the matter. The Scottish legal position is its greatest strength and also its greatest weakness.

    No that isn’t a daft statement for the strength is that the legal case is a stone wall. The weakness is that the legal requirement is that the Scottish People are legally sovereign and the Governments, both that of the United Kingdom, (not England), and the Scottish Government must have a mandate of the sovereign authority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    Thing is both Scotland and The United Kingdom have been given mandates but how are they to use them?

    The Westminster mandate is that the people of Scotland voted to remain in the European Union but they are attempting to make the case that the mandate they have is a United Kingdom wide mandate. However, legally the United Kingdom is a bipartite union and each partner has a different and independent legal system. This could be challenged in a court.

    The Scottish Government mandates, there are two, is that the Scottish people voted to remain in the EU and that the SG is mandated to hold a referendum on Scottish Independence from the United Kingdom – which, if successful would end the united Kingdom. There are the problems. Which one comes first and which government will bring it to the courts, (and which courts).

    How can the Westminster parliament make a case? It is after all legally the United Kingdom parliament and must legally represent both kingdoms of the United Kingdom Equally but it is factually running the UK as if it were the English parliament and a court would have to rule it had conflicting interests and dismiss the case.

    Now the fact is that Westminster has, more than once, sloped shoulders and failed to challenge the Scottish people’s legal sovereignty even while being prodded with a sharp stick by the SNP. Sooner or later these cases will come to court and the Scots hold all the aces as evidenced by the Westminster failure to make them cases of legality.

  101. Gary45% says:

    Mr Peffers@2.50
    Thanks for that, you are the Oracle.

  102. Petra says:

    Great post Breeks (3:19pm) other than the SNP Baad bit, lol. Yeah Tommy is one of us, IMO, and it’s high time that some people got over themselves. We’re fighting for our veritable lives here, for our kids and grandchildren, our country and future. We’ll have to pull together now to get over the line.

  103. Thepnr says:

    Robert Peston latest:

    PM ‘set to ask EU for a short and long delay’

    The PM presented choices to the Cabinet for the letter she is expected to write to the EU’s President Donald Tusk requesting a Brexit delay – without nailing down precisely what she will do.

    That said, her ministers think she will request a delay until 30 June, predicated on her somehow getting her deal ratified by MPs – with an option of an extension to the end of 2020 in the event she ever concedes her own Brexit plan is definitely an ex-parrot (or dead, for the few of you too young to remember Monty Python).

    May’s hope is that if this delay schedule is agreed as a legally binding text then it would have the effect of amending her deal – such that the speaker could not then block her holding the meaningful vote for a third time.

  104. Ghillie says:

    Robert Peffers, glad to see you still up and running rings round the usual suspects 🙂

    Keep well.

  105. Breeks says:

    galamcennalath says:
    19 March, 2019 at 3:29 pm
    ” EU is in a quandary…..”

    Yeah, y’know.. I kinda bet it isn’t.

  106. Euan0709 says:

    I don’t twitter,etc,so I would be interested in what you guys thought of Iain Blackfords interview on Sky a short time ago.

  107. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. “Constructive Deportation”. That’s a form of “constructive discrimination”, that is. I know a lot about that sort of thing, being a Scottish national, though the discrimination I’ve grown up living under can not be described as being unintentional.

    N.B. the education system shapes the minds that go on to shape future culture. Pluralism of thought is currently being disabled within the English education system. Apparently there won’t be an alternative.

    Guide to your rights and responsibilities under the Human Rights Code
    Part II – Interpretation and application
    Constructive discrimination

    Sometimes a rule or practice unintentionally singles out a group of people and results in unequal treatment. This type of unintentional discrimination is called “constructive” or “adverse effect” discrimination….

    Minority Empowerment : A Human Rights Approach to Counter Statelessness

    Tackling marginalisation through social innovation? Examining the
    EU social innovation policy agenda from a capabilities perspective

    The marginalisation of social justice as a form of knowledge in teacher education in England


    This paper utilises the analytical concepts developed in the work of Basil Bernstein to reflect on the ways in which discourses such as social justice are especially vulnerable in teacher education in England. In particular, under new-managerial regimes the forms of knowledge which are emphasised and valued focus on the instrumental and performative. As a consequence, critical and vertical forms of knowledge associated with social justice in teacher education are either absent or marginalised and reframed away from an appreciation and awareness of the structural and economic causes of inequality. Moreover, the criteria needed to effectively introduce social justice as a knowledge base in teacher education are positioned antithetically to neo-liberalism–neo-conservatism, making them arguably impossible to achieve within the current system of education in England.

    Teacher education, social justice, Bernstein

  108. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    ” EU is in a quandary…..”

    Yeah, y’know.. I kinda bet it isn’t.

    Indeed. For any scenario the EU has a straightforward rules based response and solution.

    The problem all along has been getting to UK to lay out what it wants. Of course there is no consensus from the UK to actually propose!

    Barnier has just made clear in a press conference that any delay must have something new on the table to justify it. Robert Peston interpretates that as EURef2 or general election for a long delay.

    This must be TMay’s last chance to say what she wants. Somehow, I think time to just carry on the Tory infighting won’t be an acceptable reason!

  109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    hackalumpoff @ 14:16,

    Following that link took me on to this oldie-but-goodie:

    Not entirely off-topic either!

  110. Bob Mack says:


    I’m not a betting man but I would say indy is not that far away depending on what happens over the next two weeks.

    Obviously Riby and Burley have no idea about Scotland other than what they choose to believe, as in the comments about Tories and the Euro. The handshake was very frosty.

    I think it is 95% certain Blackford told them he has tried to engege with Labour but is meeting a dead end. He also made it clear it is not the end of the road for Scotland who still has a life raft at its disposal even though the presenters don’t approve.

    I feel very positive indeed.

  111. galamcennalath says:

    @Me at 4:35

    Barnier’s press officer tweets …

    “On extension of #Art50, @MichelBarnier asks: “Does an extension increase the chances of ratification of WA? What would be the purpose and outcome? How can we ensure that, at the end of a possible extension, we are not back in the same situation as today?”

    “If @theresa_may requests an extension before the #EUCO on Thursday, it will be for the 27 leaders to assess the reason and usefulness […] EU leaders will need a concrete plan from the #UK in order to be able to make an informed decision”.”

    That refers to ratification of the WA ie getting the ‘deal’ through WM. so even for a short delay, the EU need to see evidence of change from the UK.

  112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 16:39,

    Sorry, that would be better as:

  113. Liz g says:

    Euan0709 @ 4.31
    I thought it was a really good interview.
    He got to speak and managed to hit all his points.
    The Kay woman was at least respectful towards him,even if she was regurgitating British Propaganda (even managed to say something about oil as a problem for Scotland)
    The Dark haired one was definitely not liking that he was fit for her an could rebutt her loaded questions!
    She didn’t even offer her hand to him at the end even although the Kay woman did…. How un professional…

    Anyhoo….As has been done often lately,I think he has put Westminster on notice… Go ahead with this Brexit and the Scottish people will choose if they are going to go with it!
    He all but said that Westminster can hold back the verdict of the people in the other Counties if they think it wise.
    But Scotland will have a say,if there’s to be a Brexit….

  114. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 16:41,

    I get the distinct impression that the EU27 is as much invested in May’s “deal” as she is. Because they see it as the only vaguely-viable alternative to a mutually-disastrous “no-deal”, and thus want to increase the pressure on the Tory+DUP camp to get the dirty deed done without any more ado. (As does Sinn Fein, curiously, because of the backstop.)

    What the EU27 is tearing its metaphorical hair over is the sheer bumbling incompetence of the May regime. They bent over backwards to give May what she wanted, multiple red lines and all, and she still can’t deliver. Has even voted at least once in the HoC against, over the backstop.

    It seems even now the EU27 does not fully appreciate the complexities of the UK constitutional situation. Not only because it is forbidden, diplomatically speaking, but probably also because it would rather not open that particular can of worms. N. Ireland alone was quite enough.

    But we are not so constrained. I think “can-of-worms time” is shortly upon us. And if it disrupts Brexit, so much the better.

  115. Petra says:

    @ Bob Mack says at 3:22 pm …. ”Just hearing Brexit protestor (for), have occupied the Attorney Generals office demanding he resign and a new one appointed. UK is crumbling before our very eyes folks. Once the system breaks down it is very very hard to regain control without Martial law.”

    They’ve created a monster Bob that’s ready to be unleashed no matter which way Brexit goes. A hard border is beginning to sound like a good idea to me.


    Now Big T is admitting that ”Britain is in crisis.” I wonder who brought that on? She’ll know what crisis is all about if the EU tell her to get lost.


    Between one thing and another the EURef result should have been made null and void, as too should have IndyRef1, imo.

  116. Petra says:

    ‘LBC host James O’Brien perfectly sums up how ridiculous Nigel Farage’s Brexit march is.’

  117. dom says:

    The worse the Brexit deal, the better it is for our fight for Independence.

    So this mess is actually playing into our hands.

    Who needs s Yes Campaign when you have eejits like Treeza May running the show.

  118. cynicalHighlander says:

    “Carry on up the Thames” coming to a screen near you.

  119. Nana says:

    Michel Barnier: “Everyone should now finalise all preparations for a no-deal scenario”

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Don’t have time for a long post, but as someone mentioned diet – or rather allergies – are something to look at, particularly additives.

    One fairly evil additive for me is calcium propionate which acts more as an exaggerator, catalyst, activator don’t know the word, but it can greatly increase the effect of something we might be allergic to. It’s in most bread, but not in Hovis, so it might be worth going for the slightly more expensive Hovis white or brown for a couple of weeks to see if that helps.

    My allergy is to added antioxidants (it’s a shaggy dog story to show how I proved it to myself), and the reason I checked out calcium propionate is I got my allergy with tea (I drink maybe a dozen mugs a day), which was unusual, and found by experiment it was Warburtons with the calcium propionate that caused the problem, plus a change to Tetley’s or Typhoo which boasts rich in antioxidants. Whereas Morrisons red label or the more expensive Scottish Blend, doesn’t.

    Worth a try, and simple to do.

  121. CameronB Brodie says:

    The worse the Brexit deal the stronger the likelihood that Britain’s economy will collapse. The worse the Brexit deal the stronger the likelihood that Westminster would seek to achieve direct rule over Scotland.

  122. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you feel Scotland has the upper-hand in this farrago?

  123. North chiel says:

    “ Petra@0337 pm” wholeheartedly agree that Tommy Sheridan should be in the vanguard
    of the Yes Indyref2 campaign . An orator in the finest tradition of McLean, Jimmy Reid & others. Don’t necessarily agree with all his politics but when it comes down to a “ bare knuckle” fight for our independence , I want him on my and our side folks!

  124. Petra says:

    What a waste of space.

    ‘Jeremy Corbyn asks other party leaders to back Labour Brexit at emergency meeting.’

  125. SilverDarling says:

    Euan0709 @ 4.31

    What a bizarre interview? I think Ian Blackford did really well. It was very much like the week before IndyRef when all the London crowd got sent up to rehash old arguments.

    Beth Rigby has a very steep learning curve ahead of her if she conducts her interviews at such a shallow and uninformed level. She takes over from Faisal Islam as politics ed once he moves to the BBC and it is clear she is completely out of her depth with anything beyond London. Her manner was very hostile and she came across as petty. I thought Kay Burley softened towards the end of the interview when she realised Ian Blackford wouldn’t be baited.

    I like Faisal Islam who is fair after his baptism of fire during the Indyref. I hope he influences the BBC for the good.

  126. Petra says:

    You’ll hear about this on BBC / STV news tonight. Aye right.

    ‘Tributes paid to SNP stalwart who might have saved the world.’

    ”Tributes have been pouring in for Paul Scott, the former vice-president of the SNP who had a remarkable career as a diplomat that included his largely unknown role in a piece of global history. For it was Scott, whose death at the age of 98 was announced at the weekend, who made a decisive intervention during the Cuban Missile Crisis which might just possibly have saved the world from nuclear annihilation.

    At that time he was serving in the Foreign Office and had been in Cuba long enough to get to know its Communist leader Fidel Castro quite well. The USA had broken off diplomatic contacts with Cuba after the overthrow of the dictator Fulgencio Batista and the UK sometimes acted as a go-between, At the height of the missile crisis in October, 1962, Scott was able to use his contacts within the Cuban leadership to discover that the Soviet Union was disarming its nuclear missiles.

    At the time, the US missiles and bombers were on the highest state of alert, ready to launch at the say-so of President John F Kennedy. Tipped off that the Soviets were disarming the missiles, Scott got into his car and toured the missile sites. He stood on a clifftop and looked down to see Soviet military engineers dragging nuclear warheads through the mud away from the rest of the missiles. Realising the implications, Scott then sent an emergency telegram to the US authorities conveying the message that the Soviets were standing down their nuclear threat, which enabled the Americans to do the same.

    As National columnist Alan Riach noted in his obituary of Scott: “He later wrote that he had become quite close to Fidel Castro, acting diplomatically between Cuba, the USA (which had no Cuban Embassy at that time) and the UK, and apparently reported at the crucial moment in the missile crisis that the Russians were turning back and the Americans could stand down, thus averting nuclear catastrophe.”

    Scott was born in Edinburgh and after education at the Royal High School and Edinburgh University he served in the Second World War, at the end of which he was an officer in Berlin. He passed the examination to become a diplomat and was posted over time to Poland, Bolivia, Canada, Austria and Italy, as well as Cuba. He retired from the Foreign Office in 1980 and threw himself into Scottish cultural and political life, becoming both president of the Saltire Society and vice-president of the SNP, as well as rector of Dundee University. He made many contributions to numerous causes and found time to write 14 books and edit 11 others.

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon tweeted: “Very sorry to hear of Paul Henderson Scott’s passing. A man of immense intellect, passion and commitment to his country’s place in the world. Also a wonderful @theSNP stalwart. My thoughts are with Laura and his family.”

    Pete Wishart MP tweeted: “What an amazing life. Will never forget the kindness and advice Paul offered me when I first joined the party.”

    Former First Minister Alex Salmond said: “Paul was a significant force in transforming the view of the SNP from being regarded as a group of eccentrics to being seen as a party supported by key figures in Scottish cultural life. He was a figure of great substance whose output was extraordinary. I hosted the launch of his autobiography, A Twentieth Century Life, and that book should be compulsory reading for anyone who wants to understand 20th-century Scotland. Paul was a lad o’pairts, a Scot with huge talent he gave to the better understanding of Scotland.”

  127. CameronB Brodie says:

    North chiel
    I’m not sure if Tommy Sheridan is capable of putting his ideological commitments fully to the side. Subsequently, I’m not sure if Tommy Sheridan’s oratory skills are enough to overcome the political prejudice he’s a victim of. Some can’t get enough of him, some have simply had enough of him. He’s a bit of a divisive personality, if only in the imagination of the voting public.

  128. Petra says:

    @ North chiel says at 5:55 pm …. ”Petra wholeheartedly agree that Tommy Sheridan should be in the vanguard of the Yes Indyref2 campaign. An orator in the finest tradition of McLean, Jimmy Reid & others. Don’t necessarily agree with all his politics but when it comes down to a “bare knuckle” fight for our independence, I want him on my and our side folks!”

    I want him to be acknowledged as a leader of our movement too, NC, and return to Holyrood following Independence.

  129. jfngw says:

    In 2015 The Tories received 36.9% of the vote, they considered this a mandate to hold a EU Referendum. The SNP received 50% of the Scottish votes in this election, opposed to a referendum.

    In 2017 the SNP received 36.9% of the vote, the exact same percentage the Tories in 2015 considered a overwhelming mandate.

    In 2016 the SNP received 46.5% of the vote with a provision for a referendum in their manifesto.

    The Tories claim the SNP have no mandate!

  130. jfngw says:

    Now that Fireman Sam has been outed as a sexist, is it not about time we started to look into Postman Pat. I was always suspicious about him and his van.

    And don’t get me started on Calimero!

  131. Cactus says:

    Dae ye ever read to the end of a Wings article then refresh it and ye find that a new article has just arrived at the bottom rhs of yer screen, or yer sometimes turning WOS on first thing in the day (or night) and the next thread’s newly just up with 0 comments and yet to be posted upon.

    It gives meh this kinda endorphiney emeraldy tickety feeling:

  132. jfngw says:


    I’m not convinced about A.Salmond and T.Sheridan having leading roles in the referendum. Just gives the BBC/MSM easy targets, they will turn it into a referendum on these two people, the facts will disappear.

    With a media neutral I have the feeling that Yes would have won in 2014. It will always be an uphill battle with 99% of the media in the No camp, just giving them ammunition doesn’t seem to be the best policy.

  133. mike cassidy says:

    In case you haven’t seen this yet.

    The BBC state broadcaster harasses John Bercow on his way to work.

  134. Abulhaq says:

    @Robert Peffers 3:32pm
    I bow to your superior knowledge in this complex constitutional matter. Although I do notice you forsee ‘problems’ as to the who and when and where legal challenges might be mounted.
    No matter, more importantly, may you soon be restored to full health. Salâmtak ya ustaz!

  135. Lenny Hartley says:

    Englands gonna run out of water in 25 years according to English Environmental heid bummer.
    Somebody else says its the South East thats going to be affected we will have to share,
    Im sure at around 50 p per litre, Indy Scotland can help our friends out!

  136. North chiel says:

    “ Cameron Brodie @ 0620 “ not convinced that our quest for independence will be an ideological & intellectional debate sir . That’s exactly why this man will in all probability be required . “ He calls a spade a spade & takes no prisoners”.

  137. uno mas says:

    I agree with jfngw that having either Alex Salmond or Tommy Sheridan in the vanguard of indyref2 would present the msm with easy targets to vilify.

    Much as I admire both men.

    No I think we´re doing just fine with the team we have at present

    Ian Blackford has been a revelation!

    The small missing percentage of the vote we need to win next ref are not people who will be swayed by either Alex or Tommy.

  138. Footsoldier says:

    Tommy Sheridan at Yes rallies is a big turn off for most, especially when screaming into the microphone.

    I agree with earlier comments that the people we need to win over require a less left wing shouty rant.

  139. Nana says:

    Peston assessment

    ‘This is the greatest failure of our Parliamentary and government system that any of us alive have witnessed.’

  140. Thepnr says:


    Peston there says it all really. Plan B for tomorrow, has anybody on Wings got a plan B they can lend Theresa till next week?

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Has anyone stopped to think the Prime-minister can’t openly support Scotland’s independence. but she is happy to show us the way to the door? At least half of Scotland want indy now, and there is a significant majority across Britain who wish to Remain in the EU. Win-win and the PM saves face. It’s all the fault of the intransigent EU, thus maintaining ideological alignment with Emgland’s Eurosceptic pseudo-religion.

    Is she capable of an ethical world view and empathy towards others? What does her record in office suggest? What would Machiavelli advise?

    Machiavelli – The Prince Explained In 3 Minutes

  142. Thepnr says:

    In exactly the same vein here’s Channel 4’s Jon Snow’s report.

    May is an absolute disaster as Prime Minister, we gotta go and the sooner the better.

  143. CameronB Brodie says:

    North chiel
    It was only an opinion. I have many. 😉

  144. North chiel says:

    “ uno mas@ 0728 pm “ I agree that the “ team we have at present are doing just fine “ and entirely agree that “ Iain Blackford has been a revelation “ , however , when it comes to Indyref 2 , we require two “teams” . Our wonderful SNP led by Iain Blackford & Nicola Sturgeon, the target audience being our middle class £20k to £40k income voters . We also most definitely require our “ YES” grassroots movement to inspire our working class , and less fortunate in life voters, ( we need every single vote) , to come out and vote from our housing schemes/ council house areas etc etc. Our YES movement must mobilise this vote as it will be absolutely crucial to win our Independence. We need leaders who re in tune with all sections of our historical “ Scottish society”

  145. galamcennalath says:

    Why is the msm making so little of the obvious option – cancel Brexit, withdraw A50?

    TMay has two options available without going to WM or EU for permission, she can cancel or leave on ‘no deal’.

    The third option is to get her ‘deal’ through WM and sign off the WA. That has gone abysmally so far.

    The fourth is plead for an extension by presenting her plan to use the extra time meaningfully. Presentations of viable plans to the EU has not been TMay’s strong point!

    Simply withdrawing A50 would be acceptable if immediately followed by her resignation and calling a GE. Reset everything … a hard reboot of WM. GFA intact, peace in Ireland. Union saved for a little longer.

    So why are the msm so quiet on the obvious solution? You’d think they had a vested interest in enabling Brexit, any Brexit.

  146. cynicalHighlander says:

    19 March, 2019 at 6:35 pm

    What about Andy Pandy and then there is Bill and Ben!

  147. Hamish100 says:

    Tommy Sheridan? No thanks.

    His day has come and gone as did the SSP.

    They imploded and exploded, fell out as the personalities came to the fore.

    Can we remember them all? Fox, Rosie– ?

  148. jfngw says:

    @North chiel

    I would probably go with three groups, below 30, 30-60, over 60 (the exact group age profile is my choice, there may be better).

    We need to target the message to these groups as they have different expectations and fears. Within these groups we can have sub groups aimed at different types of voters.

    Note, this is not about spinning but giving relevant facts to these people, it’s the only way we can negate the MSM.

    The question is do we have the organisation available to accomplish this.

  149. jfngw says:

    @cynical highlander

    I think I heard JKR say that Andy Pandy was her first Trans inspiration, and Bill & Ben were obviously in a relationship.

    And as for all that ‘Here We Go Looby Lou’ stuff, I’m not even sure what was going on there.

  150. cynicalHighlander says:


    Vested interest in all of their assets held in Tax Havens become vulnerable they don’t care about anything else.

  151. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Lenny Hartley

    Len I share your concern regarding England running out of water.

    Let me run this past you. Westminster take control of environmental powers from Scottish government.

    Westminster privatise Scottish Water, to allow additional investment.

    English private Water Companies buy Scottish Water.

    English Water Companies pump all the water customers in England require. Leaving Scotland a bit short of water.

    All in it together, better together.

    Certainly better for the shareholders of England Water Companies.

    What I hear you say they can’t do that… Aye they can and will if and when required

  152. cynicalHighlander says:



  153. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Simply more time for the Tories to continue their bun fight won’t happen.

    As far as short delays go, the EU are faced with a mess next Friday, or a mess in the middle of their elections.

    It looks (to me) like their preferred option is a year, or three, and work to a different plan. The problem here is, they don’t what the time to be spent with the UK still unable to agree what that plan should be. They will want a commitment to a major reset before agreeing to an extension.

    A general election where parties must include their Brexit plan in their manifesto?

    Some suggest a referendum. A choice of May’s ‘deal’ versus Remain may be no more acceptable to MPs than the current situation which has the same options in fact.

    I suspect at this late stage it has to be an executive decision rather than WM as a whole. TMay is not good at decisions!

  154. jfngw says:


    Indeed, and the Looby Lou can apparently be explained by the little weed that Bill or Ben sent to Miss Andrea Pandy.

  155. Breeks says:

    galamcennalath says:
    19 March, 2019 at 8:04 pm

    The fourth is plead for an extension by presenting her plan to use the extra time meaningfully. Presentations of viable plans to the EU has not been TMay’s strong point!

    There’s another twist that might come into play… Michel Barnier could offer the UK an extension, BUT it’s gonna cost you some majorly hefty Euros, and that’s on top of the €38 billion that’s already making your eyes water. Rees Mogg and Farage would have seizures of course, but Theresa’s a gal who knows the value of a good bung in the right pocket, especially when it’s not her own money.

    I don’t think Europe will be bothered about the actual money, but having a hefty insurance policy when you’re dealing with the trusty old Britishers is a useful way to keep them “focussed”…. and any joint venture heavily underwritten.

    It’s a possibility to consider, but I honestly think Europe might just look on March 29th as their bird in the hand. They are sick of this, and absolutely dead set against UKIP and other whiny Brexiteers winning seats in EU elections.

    The EU has plug, will pull it, March 29th.

  156. galamcennalath says:

    Sky tweet

    The Information Commissioner’s Office has fined ‘Vote Leave’ £40,000 after an investigation found it sent more than 196,000 text messages promoting the aims of the campaign ahead of the 2016 EU referendum and was unable to provide evidence recipients had given their consent

    … 20p fine per illegal text. Sounds to me like encouragement for someone to do the same again!

    We can expect all this and much more in IndyRef2. NO will be awash with dodgy dark money to spend.

  157. SilverDarling says:

    There will be people who respond to Tommy Sheridan and he still has his fans but I don’t see him attracting many doubtful No voters. He has a lot of baggage and is toxic for many women in the Indy movement. I would not exclude him though as none of us has that right. Who are we to decide who is allowed to speak for Independence?

    A more unifying voice, for me, is someone like Tommy Sheppard, articulate, passionate and knows Scotland’s history. The fact he left Labour to join the SNP means he has the experience to persuade swithering Slabbers.

  158. jfngw says:

    I don’t know who Sky have as legal experts but even I know Scotland can’t be forced to join the Euro, and my legal expertise is close to zero.

    All they have to do is make a commitment that they will join the Euro when they have been in the ERM2 for two years and our financial criteria meets the conditions to join. But of course we can decide to not join the ERM so it is an optional choice.

    Also having your incorrect ‘facts’ corrected is not mansplaining, it is just explaining to somebody that is ignorant of the facts. Although with Sky facts seem to be an optional extra.

  159. North chiel says:

    “ jfngw @ 0816 pm “ wouldn’t disagree with age bracketing if you prefer to income bracketing, “ horses for courses” as the saying goes . We must get the message out to different sections of Scottish society . Our “ messengers / leaders must resonate with each grouping or section , as you say to negate MSM .

  160. Breeks says:

    Oh… and I’ll raise the flag once again of my own wee pipe dream of Scotland diving from a moonlit clifftop, swimming out to yacht in the harbour, punching a hungry shark on the nose mid channel, sneaking on board and leaving a wee card, a box of chocs, and detailed proposal for a fully autonomous Indy Scotland becoming a transitional buffer state for trade between the EU and non-EU England.

    All because the lady loves Scotland staying in Europe.

  161. Dr Jim says:

    A word on Tommy Sheridan

    He gets folk out to vote who wouldn’t normally vote on anything, and every vote counts

  162. jfngw says:

    @North chiel

    I wasn’t disregarding the income bracket (that would be taken up by the sub groups). It was more using the correct people to get the message to target groups with the relevant information.

    Just like I would not rule out Tommy Sheridan, he could possibly get the message to some groups, but would he be willing to stay within a remit is my concern. People with large egos tend to overestimate their abilities.

  163. cynicalHighlander says:

    You watched far too much telly Breeks.

  164. yesindyref2 says:

    Tommy Sheridan has energy, and there’s a lot that don’t. Tommy Sheppard is left wing, that will appeal to some, not others. They all have their parts to play, as do we all.

    Depends on whether we think May is stupid or intelligent. Yes, it’s a distinct possibility that what she does is designed to hack off Scotland and if so she must be amazed and frankly contemptous it hasn’t generally worked. But with hung UK Parliaments possibly becoming more common, the less MPs from Scotland the better for the Tories. If they can get rid, then the better for them.

  165. SilverDarling says:


    Yep, I suppose it’s daft trying to find one voice. People know by now who turns folk off and who responds to whom. If we utilize every one of those willing to out and rally folk then we’ll get the job done.

    As long as we don’t fall into the factional nonsense of Yes with Ross Green deciding who is allowed to speak.

  166. Fireproofjim says:

    And as for the dubious practice of Muffin’ the Mule. They can’t touch you for it.

  167. SilverDarling says:


  168. PacMan says:

    Does that mean when we get independence, Harry Potter will become Scottish and a fervent indy supporter fighting oppression for his beliefs?

  169. jfngw says:

    Despite what Better Together tell you about 2014 their campaign was not a success, they started it at around 70% and finished with 55%. It actually lost votes.

    I look forward to them loosing another 15% next time.

  170. PacMan says:

    As to the ongoing conversation about Tommy Sheridan, he is an outstanding motivator who gets people into the polling booths who would not normally vote out.

    As to the inclusion of him putting off potential voters from other parts of the society, they are only interested in their own bottom line, as the saying goes, they weren’t interested in how indy could potentially affect the Scottish economy but how it could have potentially affected their pocket. It’s obvious that a post Brexit Britain is going to be financial mess and a global pariah due to nobody trusting them. Even if we get some sort of Brexit deal, which looks highly unlikely, making a break with an independent Scotland is going to look financially astute to these closet Tories than sticking to toxic brand GB.

    Never underestimate the brass neck of a Tory. They will have all be out with their Braveheart painted faces and declaring how great indy will be regardless if Sheridan is in the Yes movement or not.

  171. jfngw says:


    It’s one of the weaknesses of the Yes movement, the virtue signallers that want to exclude those that grate their sensitivities. The No side have no such qualms, they would happily use a mass murderer if it got them the result.

  172. SilverDarling says:


    The daft idea that losing well is better than winning if it’s done with purity of thought and action! I’m sick of that – I want to win.

  173. manandboy says:

    “Scottish independence would ruin our Brexit deal, says Theresa May”

    The Independent – part of the Unionist Alliance dedicated to controlling the asset-rich Scottish Colony, which is not ready to be an independent country.

    May will still be lying, lying in her coffin.

  174. Cubby says:


    Blair Jenkins contribution for Yes in Indyref1 was very similar to Corbyns contribution to the remain side in the EU ref. Make of that comment what you want.

  175. geeo says:

    jfngw says @6.35pm

    “And don’t get me started on Calimero”!


    I have it on good authority from an egghead, that was an injustice..!

  176. yesindyref2 says:

    The one person who without a shadow of a doubt in my mind caused the most damage to the cause of Independence was Jim Sillars just a few days before the Ref, with his “day of reckoning” for big business if Scotland vote for independence. The negative effect of that was immeasurable, and of course was plastered all over all media.

  177. Liz g says:

    Fireproofjim @ 9.21
    Tis a pity about muffin.. I blame the MSM….
    But I’ve always been deeply suspicious of Crystal Tipps and her enabler Alister, something’s no quite right wi they two!
    They should take a good look at them before they say a thing aboot Fireman Sam… Aye…

  178. dom says:

    If I was an English leave Brexiteer, I would be absolutely beelin at the way Westminster is trying to block or overturn the result of the EU Referendum.

    I can see riots developing on the streets of England if Brexit is not delivered.

    And maybe more personal attacks on MPs.

    The far right are waiting patiently in the wings to make sure that England leaves the EU.

    Westminster will have no one else to blame but themselves if violence erupts.

  179. Liz g says:

    While this Westminster mess is bad enough.
    Just imagine the panic and fear that would have happened if Joanna Cherry hadn’t got the confirmation from the EU Court that Brexit can indeed be cancelled at any point.
    May was desperate to keep that option from becoming known,at the very least from the other Westminster MPs, if not everyone else too.
    The Media are doing their part to keep it quiet as well.
    If anything points to her my way of the highway strategies and game playing surely that’s it?

  180. Watching the Kay Burly `interview` with Ian,

    i remember when journalist were there to hold politicians to account,

    it seems in todays world of narcissistic opinionated hacks that politicians are holding journalists to account.

  181. Ken500 says:

    Tommy Sheridan helped organise the Independence Rallies. One on Sunday in Glasgow. Some people will be going. Tommy Sheridan is a great organiser and can explain the facts around Independence. Two first class honours degrees. Tommy Sheridan stopped warrant sales in Scotland and fought against the Poll Tax. Tommy Sheridan committed no crime.

    Murdoch is a master criminal. Ruined many people and advocated killing millions breaking the Law with impunity. He should be in prison. Coulson committed perjury. Blair illegal London Court prevented Tommy Sheridan’s right to appeal to ECHR. Denying people in Scotland their rights as EU citizens. The Labour unionists – Blair went after Tommy Sheridan because he was taking votes from them in Glasgow. A force to be reckoned with. Murdoch bribed public officials, hacked phones and surveilled people. If that was admitted in Court there would have never been a case. Tommy Sheridan should be admonished and compensated

    Look what they have tried to do with Alex Salmond. He is fit for them. The Westminster psycho bastards.

    Imagine May trying to ruin the Scottish economy with Brexit. Taking Scotland down with them. Imagine implying Nicola et al did not ‘understand’ her plan. Does anyone? What plan?. A complete and utter mess. Beyond comprehension. The Emperor’s new clothes. May is a psychopath. Along with the rest of them.

  182. SilverDarling says:


    There are probably still many people who believe we would lose the opt-outs and rebate etc if we revoke A50. You are right that the press is not exactly promoting the idea that the deal we have now will be the same deal we have if we revoke A50.

    However, trust and goodwill are now at rock bottom and the UK will never recover from this in our time. At least the SNP have played with a straight bat throughout this process. They have shown integrity and have at times bent over backwards in trying to save the UK. Enough is enough, though.

  183. geeo says:

    @dim dom,

    You really are a complete idiot.

    Look at history, people in England HAPPILY vote tory despite the fact most of them will be shafted by the tories.

    Riots because ukexit is cancelled ? Not a hope.

    That card is media hype and hugely hyperbole.

    48% of voters will be DELIGHTED ffs, so most anger will be in heated discussions between people on Social media.

    And let me make this very clear, the ONLY people responsible for ‘trouble’ or ‘violence’ would be the people who commit those acts.

    Anyone reading these pages, KNOWS that you are not representative of the crushing majority of WoS contributors, nor those of the blog itself.

    So take you obvious hate and ram it.

  184. Hamish100 says:

    Sheridan is a powerful motivator, once and a little no time ago with the Poll tax as the focus. Right or wrong he no longer holds sway.
    Too much wishful thinking from old SSP.

  185. Ken500 says:

    Monsanto -‘Roundup’ found to have caused cancer in US Court – California. Hundreds of other cases waiting to be heard. The EU was going to ban it. Gave it a reprieve. Delayed.

  186. Heart of Galloway says:

    EU getting close to telling May tae sling her hook, it seems. No’ much in her magic wee letter.

    For a’ that, BBC Newsnight’s Emily Maitliss to Dutch MEP Sophie in ‘t Veld: “It would be absurd for the EU to say no to Theresa May right now, wouldn’t it?” Cue stunned look of bewilderment.

    A contender for the crassest Brexit question yet from the UK state mouthpiece? There are quite a few contenders…

    By the way RP, go well auld yin.

  187. Ken500 says:

    Tommy Sheridan is still involved in organising Rallies and Marches. They would not be going ahead without his efforts. A major force in the YES movement.

  188. Sinky says:

    Strange that Indy yes/no programme pfailed to cover the assault on Indy supporters by Union Jack waving thugs in Glasgow on day after vote

  189. jfngw says:

    Watched the final part of the BBC Yes/No programme. What I did notice was the lack of any of the BBC Scotland content, they focused on the London journalists. The Jackie Bird feeding Alistair Darling lines has been airbrushed from BBC history.

  190. robbo says:

    Just finished watching the last episode of Yes/No indy ref.

    Feel sick as a dug.

    Osborne is a fecking toss-pot rat of a man.

  191. yesindyref2 says:

    Perhaps the best word on Tommy Sheridan comes from Robin McAlpine in 2015 who some of us might disagree with on a lot of things, but in view of what he says in the acticle, here’s the actual URL:

  192. dakk says:

    ’19 March, 2019 at 9:35 pm

    ‘I’m sick of that – I want to win.’

    If even you are yes now then we might just do this Listair.

  193. robbo says:

    The ink wasn’t even dry on the parchment VOW and Cameron declares EVEL.


  194. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. the state that British democracy finds itself in. Given HMG’s stated objective of defiling the legal identity of Scotland’s nationals, can Britain be accurately described as a liberal democracy?

    Fascism and Political Theory
    Fascism, sovereignty and the state

    The nature and development of the state is a central question in political theory, but with several exceptions (Fraenkel 1941; Neumann 1942; Poulantzas 1974; Kirchheimer 1941), few scholars have examined the implications of fascism for state theory. Conventional analyses focus on charismatic leadership and mass activism (Eatwell 2006; O’Sullivan 1983), depicting fascism as a new type of dictatorship which reversed the limited nature of liberal-democratic politics.

    Building on Rousseau’s concept of the general will, this ‘total state’ is contrasted with the liberal state in western Europe and the United States, where pluralism has traditionally been more entrenched, and where the continuity of the state as an autonomous, impersonal and sovereign political order has prevented the successful rise of extraparliamentary movements aimed at creating a new state with ‘vastly greater power but without the properly political power to remain independent of both the regime and the “people”’ (McGovern 2007: 160).

    Yet while an intuitive distinction can be drawn between bourgeois democracy and fascist Jacobinism, as we have seen there is no ‘permanent essence’ to liberalism that we can positively identify: imposing an impermeable barrier between liberalism and fascism makes it more difficult to determine whether the political organization of fascism constitutes an exceptional suspension of democratic norms (revealing the constitutional limits of bourgeois political society whose hegemony is predicated on the universalizing power of the legal-rational state), or a departure from the existing constitutional framework of liberalism (revealing the historical limits of the liberal state as a system of

    Schmitt’s (1921) famous distinction between ‘commissarial dictatorship’ and ‘sovereign dictatorship’ captures the difference between traditional law-preserving violence and sovereign law-creating violence, but brings us no closer to understanding ‘the forces that determine the transition from the first to the second . . . ’ (Agamben 2005: 8). On the contrary, argues Agamben, ‘such theories remain prisoner in the vicious circle in which the emergency measures they seek to justify in the name of defending the democratic constitution are the same ones that lead to its ruin’ (ibid.). In this sense, the idea that the rule of law can be legitimately suspended to ‘defend democracy against itself’ obscures the extent to which a state of exception can become the norm in non-totalitarian states by integrating questions of security into the existing juridical framework of liberal politics.

    In this chapter, we will be concerned with three questions. First, we need to explain the transition from authoritarian liberalism to fascism, pausing to consider the theoretical value of Schmitt’s concept of sovereignty as ‘constituent power’, a force or will which exists prior to and grounds a political order (in contrast with constituted power as the institutionalized power of existing authorities). The term ‘authoritarian liberalism’ is used to refer to the departure from liberal constitutionalism in the early twentieth century, not just in central and southern Europe, but in Britain, France and the United States. It signifies the emergence of a powerful executive state presiding over a weak
    legislature, and the normalization of emergency powers to manage industrial unrest and reproduce an environment of ‘liberal security’ (Neocleous 2006).

  195. Thepnr says:

    I haven’t seen anything of the Independence documentary other than a small piece from the first one. I hope I’ll get the chance to watch them on Youtube if anyone’s listening.

    Anyway if what is being said tonight that the final program didn’t cover in any way the events in George Square and around Glasgow city centre the day after the vote then this is no documentary.

    It is a rewriting of history and that’s what winners usually do.

  196. Liz g says:

    Hamish 100 @ 10.51
    Tommy Sheridan has his place in this Hamish…
    I’m not a fan to be sure,but I can’t deny that.
    He has earned his place… And … We need everyone on board for the final push..
    To an Indy Scotland he is no danger. He will stand for election like everyone else… So where’s the problem?

    Tommy speaks to and can reach many 2014 Yes voter’s.
    We need them to recommit to go vote.
    We need IMHO,a real push for voter registration,there are some who won’t have been paying enough attention to realise they are no longer registered.
    There are some who need “Tommy’s sound” to remind them that they have a stake in this.
    I’ll turn no one away that will work in their own way for Indy.
    Yes,I do agree that putting him front and centre of the Campaign wouldn’t be a good idea …. I can see that.
    I can also see why neither would Alex Salmond be conducive to the lead role either..
    That’s a MSM issue,as we both know,every journalist will do the….Character assassination speal … every chance they get..
    Doable if we didn’t have a choice,but we do.
    If people are willing to make use of themselves for Indy!!
    I’ll be more than happy to welcome them aboard!
    Every Time!!

  197. Lenny Hartley says:

    Jason Smoothpiece Re water, i do not rule out anything from the British Establishment. If we dont dissolve the Union in the next few years I fear for Scotland. I wont be here I have already decided that even though im approaching my old age pension if we do not use the Mandate by the end of this Parliament or if we dont vote Yes in Indy Ref 2 that im offski.

  198. jfngw says:

    Osborne finishes his interview in the referendum programme by effectively saying what they had done is put the Scots back in their box. He said SNP but he meant Scots, confirmed the following morning by Cameron announcing that MP’s from Scotland would be second class MP’s at Westminster, allowed to vote when the speaker allowed it.

    Anybody that understands EVEL sees that it effectively blocks Scots MP’s from many of the offices of state at WM, including being speaker I would think as he needs to rule on English legislation.

  199. SilverDarling says:


    Ha! That would be amazing. Sorry, wrong Al…

  200. Thepnr says:

    We shouldn’t worry about Tommy Sheridan being a major “voice” in the next campaign for Independence, his will be an important voice that the SNP might not reach.

    Put it this way, I think the majority reading Wings are happy enough to see the Rev Stuart Campbell as a “voice” for Independence as he reaches a different crowd and quite possibly a more motivated crowd who in turn can reach out to others.

    This Yes movement isn’t a clique for one political view or another, anyone that tries to make it so is either very foolish or attempting to create division.

    We’re too long in the tooth now to fall for any of that shit, RIC did a fantastic job in 2014 getting people to register and those that did voted for Independence in their 100’s of thousands. We all have different skills, different attitudes and different outlooks. We all support Independence though as does Tommy Sheridan, his voice is a welcome one as would be Ruth Davidson if she ever uttered support 🙂

    You get my drift.

  201. jfngw says:

    @Lenny Hartley

    Scottish water will become a UK asset and the cost of pumping it south will be added to the GERS figures as Scotland’s contribution. Then the cost here will increase to compensate for our reduced capacity for Scotland, because increasing this volume will become a Scot Gov cost.

  202. Shinty says:

    Way before indyref I didn’t like Tommy Sheridan much and I’m ashamed to say most of that dislike was due to the media. Now after listening to the man myself, I think he’s just grand and boy does he take the media to task in every single interview he makes.

  203. jfngw says:

    Looks like the four parties meeting with Jeremy Corbyn was a waste of time. He is as closed minded as Theresa May regarding co-operation, they are the opposite side of the same coin.

    Both see the smaller parties at WM as just their voting fodder, they should vote for our policies, we will never support theirs or even acknowledge any of their ideas.

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    From Sturgeon’s latest twitter here’s an interesting but long articzzzzz

  205. Thepnr says:


    I saw that earlier as Peston also tweeted it. Read it but didn’t make much sense, agree with zzzzzz.

  206. yesindyref2 says:

    One of these articles you feel you really should read but the eyes glaze over and you find some excuse not to.

  207. Dr Jim says:

    I’ll be in George Square on Sunday waving my flag so the media can see clearly there is in fact an appetite and I don’t care who’s organising it, it’s for Independence so it’ll do for me and you can bet your life the media WILL cover this one because they’ll use it to gauge support

    If you can come along do, it’s a couple of hours out of your life for the right cause

  208. Dr Jim says:

    It was interesting watching Scotland tonight STV where they were discussing the boring useless politicians at Westminster and how we’ll have to WAIT for someone to come along to rescue us like some of the big beasts of the past James Cusick said, and went on to name ….

    Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher

    Is that what we’re waiting for in Scotland folks? Nah thought not

  209. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh I don’t know, Thatcher would probably sell off Westminster as a flagship democracy building business, asset-strip it and sell it off for scrap; and Blair would probably decide it was a 45 minute menace to the UK and declare war on it.

  210. yesindyref2 says:

    45 minutes to WMD. Oh well, I never get these things right first time. Kind of like Independence Referendums, frankly.

  211. Cubby says:


    As I said in a previous post BBC Scotland trying to blame all the bias/propaganda on ” big bad boys from London came up and did it – it wisnae us” aye right. The trouble is the propaganda has always been there before indyref1 and has continued afterwards til this day.

    You can never trust BBC Scotland to tell it straight.

  212. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher we’re both sociopaths who had a clear disdain for democracy, Muslims and brown people in general.

  213. Cubby says:

    Now watched all three parts of the Indyref doc by BBC Scotland. Didn’t think much of it but maybe that’s because I am biased against all things by the BBC and in particular those Britnats at Propaganda Quay.

    Unlike the Britnats at Propaganda Quay I will admit to being biased. BBC – your programs are crap.

    Next to nothing new.

    Revelation – independence supporters cried and were upset at the result – who knew. Nick Robinson is a lying pratt of a journalist – who knew. Murphy got eggs thrown at him – who knew. Ruth Davidson thinks she’s smarter than everyone else in the UK – who knew. Westminster does not understand Scotland – who knew. Cameron got it wrong with his EVEL announcement – who knew. I could go on but………..

    BBC your programs are crap and that is most definitely not an objective comment.

  214. Cubby says:


    Not a word about the vote no to stay in Europe claim by Better Together in the programmes. Any other broadcaster might have thought ( even just a little bit ) that this topical subject was worth covering in the programmes but not the biased BBC.

  215. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 12.04
    Em…Dr Jim is it no Saturday?
    Either way I’ll be there too… I hope to finally meet ye 🙂

  216. Liz g says:

    OH FUCK…..
    SUNDAY….. Dr Jim is right ..
    SUNDAY MARCH 24th..
    My bad… Knew it was the 24th but hadn’t checked the day.
    I just assumed it was Saturday.
    Because I’m going to YES Rutherglens event on Thursday,I didn’t have to, cause, I’d be making meet up arrangements then.
    Whit am a like :-).
    This is a positive thing really!!! 🙂 ….
    Everyone should always check things for themselves,like the rev says… Now I’m going to stop digging…
    Here endith the lesson..

  217. Phronesis says:

    The break up of the U.K. is inevitable. The criminality,deception at the heart of Brexit and the ignorance of its consequences are reasons enough.

    ‘The political contortions, the systematic ambiguities and self-serving delusions of the past three years in British politics all derive from one source, the willingness of the British political class to pretend that a manifest untruth – a cost-free Brexit – can be transmuted into reality by a narrow victory three years ago, a victory based on a questionable franchise and stained by criminality.  Those MPs who have participated in this public pretence bear a heavy load of responsibility through their inaction for whatever damaging outcome emerges…

    Dr. Satmuel Johnson famously believed that knowing he was to be hanged in two weeks concentrated a man’s mind “wonderfully.” MPs should abide by that adage in the next fortnight – or risk economic disaster and the break-up of the UK’

  218. Cactus says:

    SO ukgov NOW admit they are STOCKPILING the vital medicine… insulin (16 weeks worth)

    So what’s the plans for, on and beyond Week 17?

    “They didn’t answer”

    See y’all on Sunday y’all… let’s make some noise!


  219. Cactus says:

    Tommy Sheridan is one of Glasgow’s good guys, he groovy cool. 🙂

    Like Dr Jim notes, this could be our last opportunity as EU Citizen’s of Scotland (that is until we’re EU Citizen’s of iScotland) to gather-ra-gether and show our HUNGER for Scotland’s independence and thereafter all subsequent choices we decide to make for the future direction of our iScotland.

    Drinks and refreshments available from Dow’s throughout the day… it’s much better and more personal than that Counting Hoose fellar, plus Dow’s has a cracking jukebox.

  220. cearc says:

    Liz, If you cannae wait ’til sunday to wave your flag, there’s a march in Inverness on saturday.

  221. dom says:


    Why do you continue to hassle me on these pages with your abusive words.

    If you don’t agree with my posts then just scroll on by.

    You insignificant little arse….

    So please,,,pick on somebody else.

    Please stop wasting my time.


  222. dom says:

    The guy geeo seems to be another one of these late night posters’.

    Does he sit in his darkened wee bed-sit, sookin away at his bottle of cheap wine, before finally pluckin up the courage to come onto Wings and start abusing anyone who he has decided deserves his special attention.

    My advice to him would be to give up on the cheap wine and get out of the house more. Being locked up in a bedsit must drive you crazy,,,as geeo proves.

  223. dom says:

    Back on topic,,,Treeza is going to ask the EU for a short extension.

    As I said above, if she doesn’t deliver Brexit the way the English brexiteers voted for, she risks having riots on the streets of England.

  224. Ghillie says:

    Liz G, Dr Jim, Cactus and gang, have a fabulous time on Sunday 24th March in braw Glasgow 🙂

    And Cearc! Show them how to we do it Up North! Inverness Saturday 23rd March!! 🙂

  225. Nana says:


    Here it is, on the record – as of this morning, @GovUK is now stockpiling insulin ahead of the catastrophe of a no deal

    Does England have control over the constitution of the UK?
    Does Westminster ever write a rule and actually stick to it, when it’s inconvenient?
    Scotland will soon have a Written Constitution, with guaranteed rights and responsibilities for citizens and leaders.

  226. Nana says:

    Unable to confirm either for sure, or officially when! But we have a 100% trusted source, now saying that the #Scotland #Constitution is indeed, to be debated in @ScotParl

    Scottish charities are lobbying for a safe environment for addicts in Glasgow.

  227. Nana says:

    Here are experts from the Law Society of Scotland telling Tory MP John Lamont that the Scottish Government already has the power to keep making farm support payments after Brexit. I hear tell that Tories have been telling Scottish farmers the opposite.

    The @commonslibrary has updated the Vienna Convention & Backstop briefing it wrote up in December – now with the AG’s advice and academic commentary from March. Get it while it’s hot:

  228. Nana says:

    ‘Big gaps’ remain between DUP and Government on Brexit says Dodds

    A Brexit thread – where are we now, on the eve of an Article 50 extension
    David Allen Green

    Where is the DUP’s £1bn ‘bung’? Our schools and hospitals are broke

  229. Nana says:

    “No letter received at this stage” confirm EU sources. Expected tomorrow. After it’s written. After PM decides what to write in it.

    The sheer greed of some people

    Labour Leave fined for failing to report donations during referendum campaign

    Brexit: Cabinet split on length of delay

  230. Nana says:

    What’s one more vow between charlatans

    The Port of Calais has issued an official warning about the paperwork, red tape and delays hauliers will face after Brexit.

    Use google translate
    Polish woman beaten by thugs

  231. manandboy says:

    Every colony in the British Empire which wanted independence was told that they weren’t ready because they were too poor and didn’t know how to run a country! Scotland is still a colony because people here still believe those same English lies. Its that simple. Brainwashing works – especially with No voters.

  232. Nana says:

    ‘Abuse of power’ over Scottish land ownership

    The great British blow up

    U.N. experts urge Israel to rein in security forces

  233. yesindyref2 says:

    From the AG’s write-up on the VLCT applicability or non-applicability comes this:

    Some commentators have suggested that either the ‘material breach’ (Article 60) or ‘fundamental change of circumstances’ (Article 62) provisions in the VCLT could allow the UK to unilaterally denounce or terminate the agreement if the Irish backstop were to become permanent. But there are difficulties with these suggestions. Proving a ‘material breach’ of ‘best endeavours’ would be extremely difficult; and crucially, a continuation of the backstop would not be a ‘fundamental change of circumstances’ within the meaning of the VCLT. It is foreseen in the Protocol; so are possible adverse effects of such a continuation and a mechanism is provided in the Protocol to tackle such a situation.

    The converse of this, is that if there is no forseeing of a fundamental change of circumstances within a Treaty, then the VLCT on termination CAN apply.

    I wonder what Treaty that might apply to?

  234. Dorothy Devine says:

    Morning Nana.

    The stock piling of insulin is deeply disturbing – where the devil are all the fridges ? I know there were fridges being bought but where are they and how is it all to be transported safely to all the airts and pairts requiring refridgerated medication.

    Cactus , Dr Jim , please take two flags each as I can’t make it on Sunday because I will be on the beautiful island of Arran for a 6th birthday! – that’s if the boats don’t crash into the piers again!

    It’s a big boat Cactus so I just about cope on a calm sea!

  235. yesindyref2 says:

    VCLT, that’ll teach me to use dylsexy acronysms! And the link from Nana’s link:

  236. Bill says:

    Way off topic, apologies but need to pass on something.

    I have insider contact (quite senior) that Faslane//Coulport will be and is being prepared/ planned for annexing by force of arms if Scotland breaks away from UK.

  237. Macart says:


    Ta Nana and definitely a two cup morning. 🙂



    On the Yes/No documentary? *Same*

    Haven’t seen it, though I’ve heard there were some telling contributions. If it doesn’t have the whole story though? It’s a disservice to the people who lived it. It’s rewriting of history and that we’ve seen all too depressingly often in Scotland.


    Catching up on last nights discussions up thread. So, who gets to join the YES movement? Who gets to represent the YES movement? Fair old questions.

    The former is easy tbh. You just need to believe that Scotland is a normal country. That its population have the inalienable rights to self government and self determination. And that said government, (of whatever stripe), reflects the needs, will and aspirations of said population. Not an unworthy or unreasonable premise.

    That principle goes beyond party politics and every demographic of the people(s) residing within our borders. All of us together and All under one banner aren’t serving suggestions. Those ideas are what make you a population. It’s our differences that make the difference. 😉 (winky wossiname)

    (Also? It kinda helps if you genuinely care about people, but that’s a personal thing of mine. We’ve seen what society under another stewardship looks like and it’s pretty damn heartless and depressing.)

    Of the latter argument? Well, we all represent the YES movement really. But if people are talking about public speakers, great thinkers and debaters. Oh, and bods from the sphere of party politics? Again, we all have our favourites. Might be when a campaign finally arrives we’ll get to worry about that.

  238. Nana says:

    Morning Dorothy, I have seen many tweets where folk say they are already having difficulty receiving their meds.

    As to the ‘fridges’ story, I am not sure if the UKgov have actually stockpiled any, last I read was “it was going to be too expensive” and “there only so much stockpiling they could do”

    article from Nov last year

    Two articles from yesterday

    Brexit ‘information vacuum’ fuelling NHS drug shortages, trust bosses warn

  239. Golfnut says:

    @ Macart

    On threads that have been up for a while, I always start at the bottom or last comment, so your comment was the first for me this morning.

    Great comment.

  240. Nana says:

    Morning Macart 🙂

    BREAKING: EU’s Juncker says a decision on a delay to Brexit unlikely at this week’s summit

    Here we go. The crisis is about to deepen considerably. Anna Soubry reveals Alison McGovern tabling an SO24 emergency debate, which will begin the process of Parliament attempting to take control of Brexit extension length from PM

    That’s all for today

  241. Dorothy Devine says:

    Nana, apart from showing me I can’t spell ‘refrigerated’ those three articles did nothing to persuade me that all will go swimmingly.

    I know my pharmacist is brilliant but I trust my husband’s doctor to prescribe and the pharmacist to fulfil the prescription. I’m not at all sure I want my very brilliant pharmacist to choose options.

    But most worrying is the supply of insulin and somehow I envisage Scotland being last in the queue – can’t think why!

  242. Golfnut says:

    @ Bill.

    I don’t know how senior your source is, but annexing would constitute an act of war. If such planning is in place, it is a tacit admission that Scotland will become an Independent State, recognised by International law. The UK at that point will not exist and England at that will find that Scotland will have many EU allies who have already signed up to defending each others borders. As the aggressor England will face sanctions and blockade, if not direct military action. I think your friend is talking nonsense.

  243. ronnie anderson says:

    Bill The Americans are pumping millions into Coulport/faslane new accommodation blocks ect

  244. Capella says:

    Fascinating map from Milos Popovic using Eurostat figures. Shows Scotland as consistently the best educated country in the EU.

    From a Paul Wheelhouse tweet on Deirdre Brock’s twitter linked by Nana!

  245. Nana says:


    You read my mind Dorothy 🙂

    Hubby went to collect his script last week and as it was short, he quipped “could that be due to Brexit”
    Blank looks from the ladies behind the till and when he explained to them, he still received blank looks and one of them called the chemist out and he also had no clue.
    Hubby asked him if Boots or the UKgov had sent them guidance re Brexit, to which the chemist answered “not to my knowledge”

  246. Breeks says:

    Nana says:
    20 March, 2019 at 7:17 am

    A Brexit thread – where are we now, on the eve of an Article 50 extension
    David Allen Green

    Poignant wee teak in the perspective tnhere Nana…

    Theresa’s “deal” is a Withdrawal Agreement, or in other words a preamble; a statement of intention and guiding parameters and protocols. It’s not even the opening chapter but the Foreword to the opening chapter.

    The Irish Backstop is the only “firm” constraint in a whole document of “flexible”, freeranging aspirational discussion, yet the UK position simply cannot even accomodate this simple, unremarkable collision with reality. Brexit falls into chaos and anarchy at the very first hurdle it meets.

    The BBC and Laura Kuenssberg are reporting May will not ask for a long extension to Article 50. Not sure that qualifies as news, but its the latest BBC “output”. Perhaps Theresa May has experienced a rare moment of lucidity and recognised the hollowness of pursuing with a pointless, futile gesture. But I rather suspect there’s some other explanation.

    All credit to Ian Blackford in his Kay Burley interview. It put me in mind of a traffic cop trying to explain to seething and contemptuous motorist why she was getting a ticket.

    There is something else too… Something a wee bit intangible. When people on the tely talk about Scotland’s IndyREF2, if I put myself in the shoes of the Reporter, the obvious question screaming out at me is where and how can such a lengthy process be made to fit inside the tight chronology? When would it start, when would it finish???… But there’s no curiosity. They never dig.

    Discussiion of IndyRef2 is a no-go area for the UK media, otherwise they’d be crawling all over this component of such an impractical timescale, but they’re not. Is this simply “shut down” journalism of the UK news media? Or is it evidence that Sky News is savvy enough to realise that arguing there’s no adequate timescale to run an IndyRef is all it takes to let a Constituional route to Indy off it’s leash?

  247. Bob Mack says:


    Bills friend is NOT talking nonsense.

    Long story.

  248. Dr Jim says:

    Kay Burley has delusions of intelligence

  249. HandandShrimp says:

    May asks for short extension in yet another attempt to ram her deal through. A short extension means no EU elections and therefore no additional extension past the 1st July.

    That does mean we can draw a line under this farce sooner rather than later and get on with Indyref2. EU might say no to a pointless short extension anyway.

  250. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dorothy, was away in Scotland in the wee replacement boat yesterday, asked a crew member how long they expected to be on the Arran run, they said they thought the Calamity Isles will be back on service Sunday 🙂 they are blaming a bow thruster failure but the boat has been clattering the pier all winter when the wind has been in the west. Bad design of the pier im afraid, (Cant berth when wind is in the east either) Cal-Mac were told by the Skippers and Locals that if they went ahead with that design they would have those issues but as usual they didnt listen. A more incompetant management would be difficult to find.
    If they ever got near a train contract then the rest of the country will soon find out how bad they are. Cactus take a flag for me also 🙂

  251. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dorothy forget to mention a friend in Aberdeenshire went to his pharmacy in Westhill to get his script last week, big queue at Chemists and they were rationing the scripts, My friend got half of what as on script.

  252. Bob Mack says:


    Did you know they are building smaller nuclear reactors to refuel the subs on site at Faslane? Work has been going on for some time.

  253. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana and this one really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. If you don’t have time just read the last couple of paragraphs, folks.

  254. @Capella

    `Fascinating map from Milos Popovic using Eurostat figures. Shows Scotland as consistently the best educated country in the EU.`

    anyone here on twitter should give this a retweet and a like,

    puts a lie to the mendacious unionist/BBC/media narrative of a failing Scottish education.

  255. Phil says:

    Nana says: 20 March, 2019 at 9:13 am


    You read my mind Dorothy ?

    Hubby went to collect his script last week and …..”

    In this household I am that hubby, I went for my script, I asked the supercilious Brexit question, the answer came immediately and strongly. No one had given any advice. No one had any useful advice to give. She could give her customers no useful information about effects upon their health.

  256. Petra says:

    As to medicines, I asked my pharmacist if they envisaged having any problems due to Brexit. She looked at me as though I was daft. When I explained that the word was that there may be shortages / stockpiling of medicines she said that she hadn’t heard anything about that! She went on to say that it doesn’t matter anyway as most medicines come from India and China, not EU countries. So there you go. We’ll see how that one pans out.

  257. dom says:

    A No Deal fucked up Brexit will answer all Scottish Independence minded Scots prayers.

    It will finally awaken Scotland from her slumber.

    Too many Scots got “other things” on their mind.

    They need a shock to their system and a No Deal exit from the EU is the very thing that will do that.

  258. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland, a country full of smarty pants
    mibbees that’s why they hate us so much, nobody likes a smart Alex much less a smart sweaty and Scotland’s got both

  259. Dr Jim says:


    Maybe the medicines have to pass through the EU, seems pretty poor planning though if the pharmacists don’t know stuff

    Or do they?

    See what all this does it makes you mistrust everything, it’s no way to run countries I mean we’re not at war, Oh Christ I wish I hadn’t said that now…..Jeeez!

  260. Clootie says:

    I still get frustrated by YES supporters who must stress conditions or limiting options to giving their support.

    You either believe in the objective of “having the right as a nation to decide” or you don’t!

    Why should the various political fringes dictate the theoretical direction of travel.(We have no direction without unity of purpose)
    The question is simple – Do you want the majority of the UK to decide for us or do you want the people who live here to decide.
    Every single issue can only come AFTER that primary step.

    What is it that is so wrong with a Holyrood made up of the various political shades presenting their case and the people voting on those manifestos.

    For the hard of thinking – you will never get what you want to see under Westminster control. All you are doing is helping to continue London Rule.

    Greens, SSP etc please look at the history of countries executing the right to self determination route.
    I am not saying your beliefs are wrong. I’m saying get the right to argue and execute your case FIRST.

    To those in Labour and the LibDems who support Independence – Do you think Westminster Parties are going to ever support self determination. Your membership gives them the ability to state for example the total votes to “Union supporting Parties was..X”

  261. SilverDarling says:

    I wonder if all male politicians will now be accused of mansplaining every time they correct an erroneous assumption?

    Kay Burley has always been a shockingly bad presenter but really disappointed in Beth Rigby who is apparently held up as a trailblazing woman in a man’s world.

  262. Macart says:

    Just caught the Ian Blackford, Kay Burley piece….

    Oh Jeez! Ms Burley didn’t come off at all well. Plenty of arrogance right enough, but a bit low on … everything else. 😀

    Well done Mr Blackford.

  263. Bill says:

    Thanks @BobMack

    I’m an ex submariner. My contacts are sound and senior. They are over confident that they can annex Faslane and Coulport peninsula, “Ulsterise” Scotland.

    As for force, it’ll be benign. I asserted this fact about Faslane on this blog circa 2013 and nearly got banned for daring to suggest that such a thing could happen.

    I said then and I’ll say again, all they have to do is shut the gates.

    Obviously I can’t name my source but he’s a senior civilian (civil service) and is very very sure of what’s planned for Faslane and Coulport. I questioned why on Earth are they still planning to relocate remaining nuclear submarines at Faslane in the face of Scottish independence, because they know Scotland will leave the UK and they intend to keep the Bases – for ever.

  264. Bill says:

    @BobMack I wasn’t aware of the refuelling plans but I’m not sure how they’d go about that at Faslane.

  265. galamcennalath says:

    “Just 10% of the 2,000 people surveyed believe any extra time should be used only to make fresh efforts at getting the prime minister’s deal over the line – with the overwhelming majority of those backing an extension saying they want MPs to consider other options including a softer Brexit, a General Election or a new public vote.”

    So, TMay’s ‘deal’ is dead with the public too.

    It’s an astonishing situation where the WA negotiated between UK gov and the EU is being rejected by the vast majority in the UK. What sort of UKgov could get itself into this ridiculous situation!?

    It could, of course, all be a hidden agenda and devious plan to get a ‘no deal’ exit. And, as others have said, blame the EU.

  266. Bob Mack says:


    I think most people do not realise that the harbour is officially under the auspices of the Queen who via the Secretary of State appoints a Harbour master.

    His job is to keep that Base secure at all costs for the Queen.

    The UK is not investing £500 million in Faslane for fun. America is also funding the development at Faslane and Coulport.

    They will not give it up for anything. Ask the natives of Diego Garcia, or indeed Gibraltar.

    Having nowhere else suitable in the UK at short notice, they will remain, claiming that the Sovereign of the UK has the right to determine what is a Queens harbour or not.

  267. Bill says:


    Spot on mate.

    It gets worse: the only place that can offer BUTEC is Kyle and the range that was also recently extended. I know as I did the cable laying. They may secure Kyle BUTEC base and somehow retain the range.

  268. Clootie says:

    Faslane/Coulport – is anyone suggesting New Zealand / Canada / India / Australia can have their port and harbours used by the RN anytime the choose?
    That we will always have Royalty in Scotland?
    That the UN will be unable to act?
    Spain gave the USA two years to remove all Nuclear weapons. NZ forbids vessel with WMD.
    More unionist bluster.

  269. Bob Mack says:


    There is nowhere else in the UK ,to my knowledge that can offer these facilities within such a confined geographical area. To create such would cost more than the entire fleet of submarines.

    That is why Westminster will never relinquish Faslane and Coulport .

    I guess the Rev has a point therefore when he talks about renting of Faslane etc.

    I do not think we would have the resources to make them leave in any event,, and the legal route would be ignored as it has been in similar situations.

  270. Breeks says:

    Think Im screwing up the link and risking Rev Stu’s hammers to try again… but hunt of this on YouTube….

    “James O’Brien Speaks To Former Vote Leave Staffer Oliver Norgrove”.

    Poor fella doesnt seem to have heard of Scotland, but put that to one side and its a very enlightening listen…

    Its like a No to Yes journey for an ardent Brexiteer into a Remainer… good stuff.

  271. Bill says:


    During the indyref1 debates online (Twitter) Unionits were desperate to get Yes voters to believe Trident could be relocated to *insert crass location idea here*, even Gibraltar was mentioned – how I laughed at all of those ideas. Anyway, the Loyalist Naw-Bags were successful in that venture and managed to get Yes voters to believe Trident is of the negotiating table.

    Trident can’t be relocated unless it’s disarmed. Anyone believing it can be simply move to USA or anywhere else need to talk to me.

  272. Phil says:

    Bill says: 20 March, 2019 at 10:49 am

    “Thanks @BobMack

    I’m an ex submariner. My contacts are sound and senior. They are over confident that they can annex Faslane and Coulport peninsula, “Ulsterise” Scotland.

    As for force, it’ll be benign. I asserted this fact about Faslane on this blog circa 2013 and nearly got banned for daring to suggest that such a thing could happen.

    I said then and I’ll say again, all they have to do is shut the gates….”

    Your two last words are ominous – “for ever”. But believable.

    Something like Akrotiri on Cyprus. Or, god help us, Diego Garcia!

  273. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If only you had printed 500,000 instead of 300.000 and the result may have been different…”

    People should have sent us more money, then…

  274. Bill says:

    Bob Mack

    That’s excanly what I asserted on a post here back in 2013 where everyone was against that viewpoint including Stu. The argument went on for days and he nearly banned me for keeping it going. Couple of years later and hey presto Stu is now agreeing that Trident can’t be moved and renting it out till England build a new Faslane.

    Events have overtaken themselves now and it seems they’ll annex whatever they want.

  275. Bob Mack says:


    You know the script. No names ,no pack drill. I am reliably informed Faslane will be kept at all costs because the defence of England (shall I say) ,and indeed the defence of Western Europe is seen as being somewhat dependent on it.

    I have no doubt the Scottish government would like to be rid of it, but there are other factors at play here as you know.

    Politics and defence are inherently devious.

  276. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “That’s excanly what I asserted on a post here back in 2013 where everyone was against that viewpoint including Stu. The argument went on for days and he nearly banned me for keeping it going. Couple of years later and hey presto Stu is now agreeing that Trident can’t be moved and renting it out till England build a new Faslane.”

    Um, this is what I actually said:

    With the benefit of hindsight and more information that may have been an overly optimistic assessment of how quickly a new base could be built, but to say that I was arguing against renting out Faslane to the rUK for Trident is simply an absolute lie, Bill. Please don’t do that again.

  277. Ron Maclean says:

    From a draft version of the proposed Constitution of the Scottish State:

    “Section F: Nuclear Weapons:
    § 1: The stationing of nuclear weapons in Scotland’s land and waters is prohibited. An exception shall be made for 2 years from the date when this constitution takes effect during which time nuclear weapons may be stored in Scotland prior to their removal. During this period all activity supporting the operational deployment of these weapons shall be prohibited.”

  278. Bob Mack says:

    @Ron McLean,

    It is one thing to have a Constitution, but is quite another to enforce it, especially for an infant State.

  279. Bill says:

    Stu, I think you misunderstand my viewpoint.

    I originally asserted in 2013 that from actual experience that Scots couldn’t force Trident out, or as some were saying they’d “storm” the base. From experience all they have to do is shut the gates and that’s that. I never meant there would be armed conflict between Scots and English over Faslane occupation. Just the presence of arms is all it’d have taken.

    I also asserted that’d it take many many years to build a new Faslane/ Coulport setup and that indeed it’d be a strong bargaining chip.

    You and your fellow contributors then pilloried all my ideas and even accused me of being a Loyalist No Voter type, I think you even went on to say “I’d rather you voted No”.

    As for 6 years to build bases, RUSI report which I can’t find any error in puts it at 25-30 years.

    It’s entirly moot which quotes you bring up for that convo back in 2013, you all stood against an Ex Submariner with insight to Faslane and of course an ardent Yes voter. Then and now.

    There’s no denying you and fellow posters were so against the idea that Trident could somehow be moved or a new base built in 6 years.

    Trident can’t be moved unless the UK disarm the system, new facilities would take up to 30 years, cost billions and would need no local opposition or delays in parliament and continuity of the project as each political party comes and goes.

    So, ok you agreed that Faslane could be rented out but it doesn’t change the facts that you ridiculed what is now true.

  280. Bill says:

    That bargaining chip was lost as the Loyalists were desperate for Yes voters to believe Trident could be relocated in days, they won that and still are winning that opinion. The amount of March/rallies I’ve been to and tried to discuss with others to no avail. They don’t want to hear.

    You’ve a responsibility to set the record straight on the reality of Faslane and how it operates, try asking someone who served.

  281. INDEPENDENT says:

    O/T If Treeza Mays can kicking extends the Brexit date past 29th March at 23hrs
    Will the EU demand that the Money Laundering Bank Accounts currently secret are OPENED UP IMMEDIATELY TO EU SCRUTINY as of start of banking business Monday 1st April??????
    Just asking?
    Or will the Money disappear over the weekend!!!!

  282. Golfnut says:

    @ Bob Mack

    Not sure which Queen your talking about, but the Queen of Scots if obdurate can be removed by the People of Scotland which removes any perceived legality your assertion would provide.

    I repeat, annexation is an act of war.

  283. Bob Mack says:


    Yes, annexation is an act of war, but just what precisely do you think our police force will do about it?

    As far as I remember British army units swear allegiance to the Queen, and as yet we have zero defence forces.

    It is a real and probable issue.

  284. ronnie anderson says:

    INDEPEMDANT Irrespective of any extension to Brexit if granted UK would still be a member of the EU therefore UK would have to comply with EU law

  285. Bob Mack says:

    @Ronnie Anderson,

    You mean like Spain and Catalonia ? Somebody should tell them!

  286. Golfnut says:

    @ Bob Mack.
    It is difficult sometimes to get to grips with the Constitutional change which will occur on this island when the Treaty of Union is dissolved. That is probably much more prelevant on the establishment side than our own, and has probably received little of the critical attention that it should.

    Scotland doesn’t have bombs and bullets, fast jets and frigates, at least not immediately. But Scotland has much more potent weapons than these when dealing with the establishment, an establishment which spurned the opportunity to get out of this union without repercussion in 2014. A year which may have been Scotland’s first opportunity, but was definitely Westminsters last.

    I can believe, with a little incredulity, that some in the UK gov think that annexing part of the new sovereign state of Scotland is acceptable and even perhaps their God given right, after all we have just spent the last 2 1/2 years witnessing their negotiating tactics with the EU. Not exactly going well and I doubt that they have learned any lessons from the experience. Nor did they learn anything from their experiences withdrawing from any of the former colonies, nor did they suffer any repercussions.

    But Scotland isn’t a colony, it is a founding member of the United Kingdom, a political union, sharing a monarch who wears the Crown of Scotland and the Crown of England in a manner which bears no resemblance to the overseas crowns of the 13 former colonies.

    Bombs and bullets aren’t necessary when you have their ba##s trapped in a vice.

  287. chicmac says:

    If I were the EU I would only agree to an extension if an EU working party was accepted in the UK to help the UK get an acceptable agreement.

    Preferably a working party which contained psychologists versed in the field of cognitive dissonance as well as politicians.

  288. cearc says:

    Faslane. To me it seems sensible to give whatever is deemed as a suitable notice to quit and then hand the whole control and management over to the UN to police and supervise.

  289. cearc says:

    Ghillie 7.16,

    Sorry to dissappoint but I am flunking out of both the marches this time.

    I currently have to be in Inverness for at least one night at the end of 2 weeks out of 3. This is the third week and there is NO way i am driving hundreds of miles. Had it been one of the other weeks I would have done both.

  290. Gary45% says:

    I’ve just thought of something regarding Brexit.( if already covered, accept my apologies)
    As we all know bookmakers/gambling companies, now advertise “the what happens next scenario” at football matches, next goal scorer, sending off etc.
    Anyone else think the ” currency market traders, hedge funders, some politicians” could be doing the exact same thing on the daily shenanigans of Brexit?
    There are many who are making a sh*t load of £$s from this.
    Just a wee thought.

  291. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bill / @Bob Mack
    Chalmers of RUSI published this paper in August 2014:

    the conclusion in the Executive Summary is relocating Trident would cost less than £10 billion (£3-£4 billion) and could be done in a few years (2028 from 2014). NOT 25-30 years – that was what Chalmers said initially in 2012 with less knowledge and study at the time, along with a price tag of perhaps £40 billion.

    Professor Malcolm Chalmers is Research Director and Director (UK Defence Policy) at RUSI. He is a Special Adviser to the UK Parliament’s Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy . . .

    I’ll take his word over any scuttlebut.

    Secondly Faslane is being improved to take the SSNs – Astute and Trafalgar, hence the building work and port and facility improvement. There was a lot of contractors there last year for instance, probably still there. And almost certainly hence redoing protection plans, with consequent military gaming and operations.

    Thirdly Astute is moving from Devonport, and in my opinion this and the basing at Faslane speeds up that process of moving Trident if needed, including planning and feasibility study phases which are likely done or underway. So a target of 2028 or even earlier is still achievable.

    Fourthly scuttlebut, even at a senior level, tends to take actual events and create rumours around it. I’ve no doubt some senior staff and even officers have discussed Faslane / Coulport being a sovereign base, that doesn’t mean it’s planned by UK Gov, legal, possible, or even desirable in any way at all. It’s human to speculate.

    Fifthly, if we go Indy and there’s an agreement to leave the base at Faslane / Coulport until say 2028, as base commander, or defence forces commander, or anything at all in a responsible position there, I’d cater for all circumstances in defending my base, including an absence of Scottish military personnel to proctect or react against say a Russian invasion in Campbeltown, parachutists dropping unopposed on the road across from Loch Lomond, a lax ScotGov immigration allowing 2,000 Russian special forces to “settle” in Helensburgh and Arrochar, having smuggled in parts of tanks and mortars and of course drones.

    Rumours are not restricted to “other ranks”, and there is a need to know about the reason for any military plan or exercise involving units of any description. Anyone can jump to the wrong conclusions – at any level.

    Sixthly, Chalmers doesn’t mention BUTEC, and I’ve seen nothing about it as far as Indy is concerned in the last 7 years, from which I’d guess it’s not a problem. Within NATO it’s likely the waters from Skye up will still be available for NATO exercises as they’re ideal in a lot of ways, a very clear reason why NATO will NOT say “Get to the back of the quueue for membership”.

  292. Dorothy Devine says:

    Lenny , thanks for the information on the boat – I always thought if she was going to hit anything it would be the harbour wall at Ardrossan , wrong again!

    I’m coming over on Friday as a foot passenger and back on Sunday , so I may get the big ‘un back. I’m a tad anxious that as they have curtailed the booked boats on the wee one , I’m just hoping they haven’t curtailed the foot passengers.

    Thanks to all who have reinforced the bad news about prescriptions and difficulties encountered already.
    What a damned mess!

  293. Liz g says:

    Bob Mack
    I don’t know what conversation you’re referring to but …
    I think that everyone really means it won’t be as simple as closing the gate’s.
    And there are some (myself included) who do understand that to move them quickly means disarming them…But see that as not Scotland’s Problem… and others see it as the whole point.
    We shouldn’t get bogged down in what the UK can and cannot manage with their neuks, we only need to decide what we want to do about them.
    I am against the Revs proposal of renting the base for many, many reasons but can see that there are arguments for it.
    One of the main one’s being an end date to the lease,which would remove doubt about when they are going!
    As I understand it, Trident is near the end of its life anyway,and it’s replacement was not a given so,if they are daft enough to go ahead with it’s replacement without a base to put it in, that again, is their problem but we cannot be without our base for the life of the replacement.
    So on independence or even the Yes vote they would be wise to pause the work on the replacement.
    That should tell us how they are thinking on the issue and then we can start to consider what we want…
    As others have already said this is not as straightforward as the bases they have held into in other Counties.
    Up to and including the position of their Monarch.
    They have to service that base,it needs,utilities and used of Scotland’s roads,they cannot do that without the cooperation of Holyrood and Holyrood cannot cooperate without our permission!

  294. Robert Peffers says:

    @ Ken500 says: 19 March, 2019 at 8:08 am

    ” … Aye Mr Peffers get on yer bike. Keep taking the meds to better health. The efforts appreciated. An inspiration. Keep strong. Can just picture it? Free wheeling doon the road. An advert for people power.”

    One wee problem, Ken500. My wee campervan is still sporting the YES stickers but although the new trike has a basket in front and big basket on the rear it is wire with big open spaces and nowhere to stick stickers.

    So when I get my well equipped workshop clear again I’ll be making a nice big lockable box for the back to replace the basket and get stickers all over it. Mind you we might be Free Scots by that time. Talking about that workshop I came across a batch of well seasoned blackthorn sticks I had intended to make walking sticks out of.

    I might not have a lot of spare time on my hand anyway.

  295. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 3.00
    It’s not only the rumours that “just” get started,sometimes it seems quite deliberately done! (Don’t mean Bob Mack here)

    During Indy Ref 1 A friend of mine was being told by her brother in law “the oil was done,Alex Salmond was lying about it and any new finds were a Yes Campaign conspiracy” …

    The Brother in law was, and is middle to upper management in the oil industry. He was told this by some really senior people and it was told to him on the quiet.
    He completely believe them,and more to the point he would defend the position by reason of them knowing more than mere Campaigners…. Well they would say that wouldn’t they…cut no ice.

    Fortunately my friend didn’t and voted Yes,because by that point her eyes were opened anyway…But I’m almost certain this was deliberately done to disseminate wrong information.

    Many people who wanted to know the truth of the information around the oil would have asked people like my friends brother in law,thinking that they were getting the truth from someone in a position to know,and it was indeed the truth as he knew it… It just wasn’t the actual truth!

  296. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 19 March, 2019 at 8:14 am:

    … but because you’d think it was and be annoyed. But what the hell. I genuinely wish you well Robert, and you can take it or leave it and add your own salt to taste. Get well soon regardless.”

    Ah! Breeks, I’ve posted it many times before. I don’t get annoyed. Not at anything or anyone. Which is why I never post in anger and think well what I do post. What’s more, unless proven otherwise, I accept people at face value. So I gladly accept your good wishes as sincere.

  297. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “There’s no denying you and fellow posters were so against the idea that Trident could somehow be moved or a new base built in 6 years.”

    I quite clearly said in that comment that Trident COULD, and indeed would HAVE to, be moved, and that in the meantime the base should be rented to the rUK. You’ve already blatantly misrepresented my position and I’ve provided the evidence for it. Don’t push your luck.

  298. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bill (to Rev) “You’ve a responsibility to set the record straight on the reality of Faslane and how it operates, try asking someone who served.

    Bill, I read his recent article and it seemed pretty sound to me. It’s an opinion, one I largely agree with. The rent he suggests may be a bit on the high side, on the other hand it’s actually likely not to be feasible to base the SDF at Faslane as planned in the white paper, until the nukes are all gone. Which means iScotland would have to have an alternative base, perhaps Rosyth or somewhere else up the Clyde, which would be expensive in itself, and expensive to move to Faslane when Trident and all were gone. Clearly the rUK would have to compensate in full for that – plus a sensible rental in itself.

  299. Bob Mack says:


    You are actually citing as true the word of a Professor who advises the Joint Services Committee at Westminster?

    I prefer to listen to people who actually work there. I wonder why they are moving all their subs to Faslane eh? Does that sound like a Government expecting to lose control of the Base in spite of indy ref polls showing an increase for indy.

    To provide another Base would only take sand and cement. To provide the facilities and geographical benefits of Faslane would be much more of a challenge for the MOD.

    If it wasn’t why we’re the subs not originally stationed at Devenport or Pompey?

  300. Bob Mack says:

    May I also remind everyone what the then Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said in 2013.

    He declared that if Scotland voted for independence then Faslane would be declared sovereign UK territory and treated as such. The SNP at the time were furious that Hammond would not refute that statement.

    We have already been warned.

  301. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    We can all believe who we like. If Chalmers was part of some conspiracy, rather than an internationally respected defence researcher of a highly respected defence research institute, he would be far more likely to say “it can’t be done at all under any circumstances”, as that would deter people who don’t want to harm the UK, from voting YES. And there are plenty of them.

    The reason for moving Astutes to Faslane is on record, believe it or not as you will. Badly needed infrastructure improvements to ALL bases for all services being a main one. My own theory as I pointed out, is that it leaves Devonport available for redevelopment if neccessary, to provide facilites and berths for twice the number of boats as currently. And to add to that, Appledore is being shut down as a shipbuilidng facility – which makes it available if neccessary.

    People will believe who and what they like. From my point of view if I was Williamson, I’d want my nukes in the rUK where I could keep my beady eye on the, not in some foreign country like Scotland where anything could happen.

    Oh, and someone who advised the SNP at times I think, forget his name, was one of the first to point out that moving Trident was way easier than most people though, and perhaps was part of the reason Chalmers changed his mind. Chalmers started as many did, being very UK-centric in his opinions, actually dismissing the possibility of Scotland ahving any reasonable defence forces. He changed his tune as he studied more, and is to be commended for that.

  302. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, Chalmers is actually deputy head of RUSI, not “just” a researcher.

  303. twathater says:

    Yesindyref2 11.05pm thanks for that link , Robin McAlpine goes a long way to balance his opinion of Tommy Sheridan to assuage the haters , but they still pile on the bile .

    I myself have been dubious about his motives and actions , but I can honestly say I have never seen anyone who is more outspoken and challenging to the establishment , I recently watched a yootube video of him and I think Brian Mc Cabe from 2014 and they were on fire , anyone who was not convinced by their honesty and exposure of the corruption against Scotland was brain dead

    Many on t’internet have voiced their concerns that the SNP SG big guns have been too nice and diplomatic and are not aggressive enough answering the msm and opposition , but that cannot be said about T Sheridan he is in there like a jack Russell who has the taste for blood , and more importantly he demolishes and destroys their blatant lies and corruption

    Fair enough not everyone likes the confrontational aggressive approach , but the yoonatics need to know that we WILL expose their lies and duplicity forcefully

  304. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scotland isn’t a colony, it is a nation that has undergone internal colonisation. Subsequently, Scotland has been colonised in mind and spirit, with the result that it now behaves as if it is a colony. This mentality can be expected to deminish over a couple of generations following independence. 😉



    Hechter’s model of internal colonialism provides a new and refreshing insight into the development of the United Kingdom. It is to be hoped that Hechter’s analysis will prompt further studies of the nature of regional inequalities not only in the British Isles but also in other developed polities.

    There are, however, certain criticisms which must be met before the model can be accepted as giving an adequate account of regional differences within the United Kingdom and as providing a basis for comparative research. These criticisms are related to the ability of internal colonialism as a theoretical construct to relate diverse forms of regional differences to an underlying pattern of inequality; internal colonialism as a contrast to prevailing explanations of development; the methods used to test the theory; and the problem of how far the internal colonial approach is able to explain the apparently high degree of regional homogeneity in terms of electoral support in the 1950s and early 1960s.

    internal colonialism

    Internal colonisation: The intimate circulations of empire, race and liberal government

    “Celticity and the Gaelic voice in (post)colonial discourse”

  305. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    For a dash of cold water over what you claim Hammond said about the sovereign base thing:

    A Number 10 spokesman said that no such idea had been presented to Mr Cameron or to Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, adding that it would not be a “credible or sensible” course of action.

    and remember, sensational headlines do NOT tell the story as countless article on Wings ahve pointed out for years.

  306. Bob Mack says:


    Seems Sir Nick Harvey the former Lib Dem armed forces Minister said exactly the same thing about Faslane. Funny that. His was a direct quote and not a headline.

  307. yesindyref2 says:

    Name came to me – Francis Tusa, but he wasn’t an advisor to the SNP, in fact he’s independent, RUSI, and sometimes favourable to the cause of Indy, sometimes not as in this one:

    I was delighted he was elected to the ScotParl, even if not neccessarily agreeing with his views. He’s tough, and contributed to a rainbow parliament.

  308. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    Seems Sir Nick Harvey the former Lib Dem armed forces Minister said exactly the same thing about Faslane. Funny that. His was a direct quote and not a headline.

    Firstly if he said that he didn’t say the same thing, as Hammond never said it. Second – Lib Dem – who wanted the CASD cut to a totally impractical 3 not 4 boats, and not at sea either. Third – he wasn’t the defence minister. And fourth, even if he was, according to the current gung ho one we’re about to invade Russia and China at the same time and blast them off the face of the planet using the carriers. It ain’t happened yet.

  309. Bob Mack says:


    Your getting flustered. I said he was Armed Forces Minister, not defence. His is a direct quote in the lead up to the indy ref. Hammond also said to move the subs would involve prohibitive costs, and was not feasible.

    We are talking about subs ,not aircraft carriers.

  310. twathater says:

    Yesindyref2 4.46pm I agree I also don’t always agree with his views , but when you look at the DROSS currently inhabiting the SP I think it would be a breath of fresh air , in fact we might even get some intelligent questions from him , and he might produce some alternative proposals rather than just moan SNP BAAAAADDD

    In reference to Faslane and neuks , INDY FIRST THEN WE THE PEOPLE WILL DECIDE , along with the monarchy

  311. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    You’re getting confused. Hammond talking at one stage about prohibitive costs is not the same as your compulsory sovereign base theory, an Armed Forces Minister is not one of the 3 ministers who can take the UK to war so is not as senior, you haven’t provided one single link to back up your assertion about what anyone has said whereas I have.

    As for Hammond he later said it would take at least 10 years to move Faslane and Coulport which admitted that it can be done.

    And for the sovereign base angle itself, it’s quite likely that – with total agreement of the Independent Scottish Government and subkect to lease terms – Faslane and Coulport would be some sort of rUK sovereign territory for a limited time (say 10 years), to get round the NNPT for one, to give the rUK some asset protection rights, subject of course to some environmental concerns, perhaps a right to inspection, and such as murder, rape and drug smuggling – i.e. the normal Rule of Law.

  312. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    You’re getting confused. Hammond talking at one stage about prohibitive costs is not the same as your compulsory sovereign base theory, an Armed Forces Minister is not one of the 3 ministers who can take the UK to war so is not as senior, you haven’t provided one single link to back up your assertion about what anyone has said whereas I have.

    As for Hammond he later said it would take at least 10 years to move Faslane and Coulport which admitted that it can be done.

    And for the sovereign base angle itself, it’s quite likely that – with total agreement of the Independent Scottish Government and subkect to lease terms – Faslane and Coulport would be some sort of rUK sovereign territory for a limited time (say 10 years), to get round the NNPT for one, to give the rUK some asset protection rights, subject of course to some environmental concerns, perhaps a right to inspection, and such as murder, r*pe, theft and drug smuggling – i.e. the normal Rule of Law.

  313. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry about that, the r*pe word, please delete the one in moderation as I inserted the usual Asterix.

  314. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – defence
    Re the 6 B-52 being based at Fairford for a time, an article in UKDJ, and some comments below the line that put it better than I can, in regards to being very old – basically they’ve been rebuilt over time.

  315. Bob Mack says:


    In order to accept what you say you would have to believe the Armed Forces Minister just had a thought pop into his head and then say it aloud.

    You therefore cannot believe he was privy to discussions about what would happen to Defence resources in the event of Scotland voting for indyin 2014!
    OK then.

  316. Bob Mack says:

    As an aside the Minister of Armed Forces only had one boss. At the time it was Philip Hammond the Secretary of State for Defence. Guess they never talked much to each other.

  317. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack “In order to accept what you say you would have to believe the Armed Forces Minister just had a thought pop into his head and then say it aloud.

    One he’s a LibDem, who was a minor “partner” in a Coalition, and two, you still haven’t provided a link to prove he said any such thing, not even one from the likes of Severin Carrell saying that he said such a thing (rather than his actual words). So currently I don’t believe anything of the sort.

    Don’t forget Blair and Brown, and Cameron and Osborne, discussed taking over the Indy Ref and running it completely from Westminster.

  318. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Regarding rationing:

    Anyone else noticed an increase in petrol pumps being “out of use” in the last couple of weeks (and still not back in use), staff told me they didn’t get “full delivery they asked for”!

  319. Bob Mack says:


    Sorry to burst your bubble,but the clear evidence can be found at a session of the Scottish affairs Committee in minutes, vidence 51 June 2012, questions no 326 onwards, where he was asked these very questions

    I could transcribe the whole thing but for what end.? You seem to believe nothing you yourself have not posted. Are you Mrs May perhaps?

  320. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    You still haven’t provided a link, your Royal Highness Queen Elizabeth II of England. Don’t you know how to do a link? Do you need some help?

  321. yesindyref2 says:

    In the absence of a reply I searched myself and found it’s one of my own (very many) defence bookmarks, and I read it (carefully) back in the day (2012-14) and probably used it in the Grun and/or Herald to refute Unionists. Nowhere did Harvey make any such statement, here’s the relevant Q&A, the suggestion came as a Question from Reid, the then LibDem MP for Argyll and Bute: “substantial concessions.

    Q329 Mr Reid: It sounds as if the UK Government’s position is that they would make substantial concessions in other fields in order to get the Scottish Government to agree to maintain Trident at Faslane.

    Nick Harvey: My meaning was slightly the opposite, but you can look at it which way you like.

    Q330 Mr Reid: Can you expand? I genuinely misunderstood what you were saying.

    Nick Harvey: This is not a matter for the Ministry of Defence to take in isolation. This would genuinely be a huge pan-governmental issue.

    Q331 Mr Reid: If Scotland were a separate state and they were agreeable to Trident staying at Faslane, despite what the SNP have said publicly, what conditions would the UK Government be laying down?

    Nick Harvey: Thinking off the top of my head here, Chairman, I think the critical one would be complete freedom of action-complete control and complete sovereignty over the facility.

    Q332 Mr Reid: You would want the Faslane and Coulport area to be UK sovereign territory rather than Scottish sovereign territory.

    Nick Harvey: That is going into detail. As I have described, we are not making contingency plans for this. We do not think it is going to happen. You are inviting me to speculate now, but the critical point of principle would have to be complete control over what we did there.

    in order to get the Scottish Government to agree to maintain Trident at Faslane

    in other words, the SG has to agree, and

    complete sovereignty over the facility

    which is not the same as “sovereign base” or “sovereign territory”, and certainly not to the UK imposing it, which they could not do – as Harvey himself made very plain. It would come at some cost, as Reid said. And as the Rev says.

    And this by the way “Thinking off the top of my head here shows that Harvey did indeed, have “a thought pop into his head and then say it aloud

    Sorry Bob, but this is *fake news*.

  322. Golfnut says:

    @ yesindiref2

    Interesting mindset on display by the Minister.

    In order for the Scottish Gov to agree to keep Trident at Faslane they would need to agree to ‘ Complete Sovereign control and what they do there ‘ .

    The new Constitution if passed will limit the Scot Gov regarding negotiations, 2 yrs is probably just about enough time to decommission the base as a military facility though it will take considerably longer to clean the area properly.

  323. Clootie says:


    I think you are living in the wrong century. You cannot simply take over part of a country and declare it is now yours without becoming a political pariah.

    You can do it by force. You can hold it for a short time but in a modern democracy I doubt you would have any “friends” supporting you.

    You appear to still be in awe of your previous employer. Think political reality instead of military solutions

  324. Liz g says:

    Golfnut @ 8.04am
    It’s not only interesting it’s bizarre..
    To imagine that the Scottish government would give some of Scotland’s Sovereignty away to a nuclear facility,when Scotland’s Constitution,the actual rules the people of Scotland will hand down to their government will explicitly ban it from doing so is crazy!
    To think that one of the first acts of the first Scottish government would be to cut a deal to get around the first time the Scottish Government would be governing under the direct control of the Scottish People,to subvert those rules so that the will of another Sovereign Parliament in another country can be accommodated….. Is insane…
    Another country who is most likely not even going to be a member of the same Union of other countries as we are and therefore not under the auspices of the Courts of that Union?
    Who maintains that there’s no Court above their own?
    And more to the point….. If they contaminated that base it will be beyond use FOREVER,they have no way of putting it right for us and that sort of loss to Scotland is priceless.
    Why would we allow our government to risk that…

  325. Golfnut says:

    @ Liz g

    I agree, the 2yr limit is quite specific and lays down a boundary marker when negotiations get underway, but also if the issue went to arbitration in the International courts, I can’t see them finding against the constitutional will of Scotland’s people.

  326. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g / @Golfnut
    Think of embassies. If you walk into the US embassy in London, it’s considered the sovereign property of the US, and they have certain privileges, including a measure of immunity to laws. You too are covered then, and it’s only by agreement you can be dragged out back into the UK, the Police can’t just come in and get you!

    But it’s not sovereign US territory. Same for French, German embassies the lot, and it would be the same in iScotland. The rUK embassy in probably Edinburgh would be similar. It’s covered by the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963:

    I think it’s similar for the likes of Lakenheath in England which was used by the Yanks, and perhaps still is at times, and Fairford – RAF bases but used by the Yanks.

    If the UK co-based a squadron of Typhoons at Lossiemouth, that would be similar too.

    But the Scottish Gvoernment can completely refuse to grant any such status, or can ask for money, and can set some conditions – emissions perhaps, no litter! Or even inspection rights. All dependes on the actual agreement.

    As Harvey said “That is going into detail” – and it’s detail he wouldn’t be expected to know the detail of as it’s International Law and Conventions, but also whatever is decided in negotiations. Salmond would probably have said the same, or I would (!!!) to give an indication of the actual neutrality of what Harvey said.

  327. yesindyref2 says:

    I think Article 26 is the one of interest, where the ScotGov could say at any time:

    “We don’t want you or your boats here any more, you have 3 months to get it all out, here’s a Pickford Van to help you and we’ve laid on a Calmac ferry to help you out. yesindyref2 and the boys will give you a hand.”.

  328. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, I’d agree as long as it was a condition that I be given a ride on preferably Astute but if not, Vanguard, for a max of 2 weeks and be dropped off then with taxi to take me to an airport and bring me home to Glasgow Airport. I’d make my own way from there 🙂

  329. Golfnut says:


    I’m afraid I lost Faith a long time ago regarding the integrity of our neighbours government. Venal, corrupt and oath breakers, no thanks, they have to go.

  330. yesindyref2 says:

    Salmond was pretty easy-going really, and negotiations would have been quite friendly.

    I don’t envy the UK Gov negotiating with Sturgeon, specially since Scotland really does have the whip hand in my opinion, specially regarding Faslane.

    By the time she’s finished with them we’ll all probably be begging her to show mercy!

    Or not, as the case might be …

  331. Shug says:

    Hope you are working on a red and gold book for indy ref2

  332. Golfnut says:

    @ Yesindyref2

    Yes, on that we can agree. However one key area that I believe the 2014 indyref fell down on was defence. Scotland internally and internationally is perceived as a martial nation, it has ‘ proud ‘ history both home and away which many in our country really don’t understand.

  333. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m fecking feckity fecking fecked I missed the Defender thing in Glasgow, all tours sold out. Never even knew about it. Still, might see her as we’re up to Glasgow on Sunday. A detour might accidentally happen …

    Defence was a bit of an undebated subject, not vital in itself but still a reason to vote NO if not properly done. Ashcroft morning after had it as 29% of NO voters picking it as one of their 2 or 3 main reasons for voting NO.

    I did my best and, cough, in a famous thread in the Grun, may have been a bit instrumental in the SNP change of policy from Partners for Peace in NATO to full NATO membership. I held my corner – or soapbox. Sneekyboy will tell you about it perhaps. But there were damn few had any defence knowldege at all during the Ref, not knowing one end of a jet from a bilge pump.

  334. yesindyref2 says:

    While I think of it in this old thread, anyone wanting to brush up on defence understanding, read up on missiles and radar / targetting, NOT ships and planes which aren’t much more than a platform for them. Which is why at half the cost the Gripen E/F is (nearly) a match for the Typhoon – both can take the MBDA Meteor, and track and target jets. The F35-B is currently starting to get fitted (and for SPEAR).

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