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Wings Over Scotland

BREAKING: Pope still Catholic

Posted on July 28, 2020 by

Alert readers may have noticed that the hypothetical Wings list party is once again the talk of the steamie, with the usual suspects stamping their feet and pouting about it yet again on social media, in particular the firmly-ensconced SNP MP Pete Wishart and the worryingly obsessed former poll-analysis website WINGS OVER SCOTLAND IS BAD AND TERRIBLE AND STUART CAMPBELL SOMETIMES DOES SWEARS SO NOBODY WOULD EVER VOTE FOR HIM! Goes Pop.

(We’re not sure where this sudden outbreak of 18th-century Puritanism about Scottish people using colourful language has come from, to be honest. It seems the weirdest and least plausible grounds for objection imaginable in a country that’s literally world-famous for its enthusiastic embrace of swearing, but *shrug*.)

The trigger was a bizarre piece in yesterday’s Courier (also picked up by the National, the Evening Express and others). They phoned us last week ostensibly to talk about a new website set up by a bunch of loony Unionist zoomers who with amusingly ironic timing have named themselves “The Majority”, and whether we thought they’d have any impact or be able to attract funding.

We chatted perfectly amiably to the reporter for several minutes on the subject, so we were quite surprised when the story that eventually appeared didn’t contain a single mention of them, and instead was solely about the Wings party, which he’d also asked us a couple of “Oh, by the way, while I’m here”-type questions about.

So let’s just clarify a couple of things for the record (again).

Since we first casually raised the idea of a notional Wings list party over a year ago in an interview on The Alex Salmond Show, here is a full list of all the positions and statements and announcements we’ve made about it:

JUNE 2019: “We might start a list party.”




JULY 2020: “We still might start a list party.”

The reason the subject has barely been discussed at all on Wings is because nothing has changed. We still might do it and we still might not. Politics, and indeed society as a whole, is still in a state of much uncertainty and flux due to COVID-19. The Holyrood inquiry into the failed stitch-up of Alex Salmond could have untold ramifications. We simply have no idea what the picture will look like a few months from now and deciding anything at this point would be like setting out to sea in a rowing-boat in a hurricane.

It’s been quite bewildering watching people make vast amounts of entirely baseless speculations and assertions in every imaginable direction when we haven’t said a word on the subject in a year. We’ve watched in bafflement as James Kelly in particular has interpreted this complete silence as a series of “U-turns” and “re-U-turns” so lengthy and contorted that we honestly have no idea what he even thinks our plans are now, despite the absolutely extraordinary amount of time he spends ranting about us.

Wishart today makes a series of whiny tweets that sound like a six-year-old in a school playground about how the party is a non-starter because we “hate the SNP”.

That isn’t true. Like a great many people, including several of its own recent former MPs and a fair few current ones as well, we hate the direction the current leadership is taking the SNP in – towards a right-wing, authoritarian, science-denying, rape-enabling nanny state where free speech is a crime and the meaningful pursuit of independence has been openly abandoned in favour of consolidating the personal power and status of the leadership and cosy Westminster MPs like Wishart.

But as far as I can ascertain the vast majority of members are still good people who do not share those views, and many are actively working to wrest control of the party back from the current mini-clique that has captured it and get it back on track.

Even if it was true, though, so what? Labour and the Conservatives hate each other, but it didn’t stop them teaming up in “Better Together”. The gender reform debate has temporarily united people as diverse as radical lesbian feminist Julie Bindel and, um, non-radical lesbian feminist Piers Morgan in a common cause. It’s the core nature of politics that it makes for strange bedfellows every day.

Some readers may also feel that it might behoove someone like Wishart to wonder WHY this site – which has spent much of the last decade resolutely defending the SNP – had suddenly become seemingly hostile to it, but that might require a modicum of self-awareness and intellectual curiosity Pete Wishart has never been seen to display.

(His thread today is a long list of people attacking the party’s failure to make, or even attempt, any meaningful progress on independence, followed by Wishart replying “but we’re going to win the election!”, apparently completely unable to separate the concepts of independence and the SNP or understand that SNP voters are less keen than he apparently is to give up on the party’s supposed primary goal just to keep its elected representatives in comfortably-feathered nests for life.)

But anyway. Nothing has changed. There is no news, and no white smoke to report. There still might, and there still might not, be a Wings party. We’ll make the decision when it’s possible to sensibly do so and not before.

And rest assured, readers – if and when there are any developments on that front, you’ll read about them first here, not in The Courier.

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  1. 28 07 20 10:56

    BREAKING: Pope still Catholic | speymouth

  2. 30 07 20 13:20

    “Rhyfel ar ddau ffrynt” – Golwg360

266 to “BREAKING: Pope still Catholic”

  1. Milady says:

    Well, given he has blocked me and a goodly number of other pro-Indy folk on Twitter, thankfully I won’t see/hear Mr Wishart’s ‘words of wisdom’ (insert rolled eyes emoji) on the subject. Sadly in the current SNP there are too many in the ‘none so blind as those who refuse to see’category.

  2. kapelmeister says:

    Nae sweary words says Wishart. You don’t get many rock musicians who shun bad language. Maybe he should have been the keyboard man in Runprig.

  3. Gary45% says:

    Stu, when did you start swearing??
    I’ve never noticed.

  4. Effijy says:

    We have a majority of Scots seeking Independence,
    We are about to be ripped out of the EU against our will,
    We are about to have all the important devolved powers stripped from Holyrood
    and Westminster’s complete and utter mismanagement of the Civid Virus has seen
    10’s of thousands of needless deaths.

    All this and the Tories we never vote for are jamming the door open for American Corporations
    Buying our NHS.

    How nice for people like Pete Wishart to squeeze in time to attack a pro Independence blog,
    One that is the world’s most visited political site and attack us for their inaction and lack of direction.

    Pete, would you rather deal with someone who swears, which is probably 99% of the population of
    the Tory Toff’s of Westminster who insult Scotland on a daily basis, steal our resources and keep in power by a never ending stream of lies that England are happy to buy into?

    It’s rhetorical Pete. I can see clearly see the answer in your actions.

    I’ve stopped funding the SNP but I think it’s time that money was wisely invested here.

  5. Nigel says:

    What’s with Kelly at Scot Goes Pop anyway? A real disappointment there – I no longer read his blog.
    Good old fashioned green eyed monster? Too pro- and blinded by the SNP to see the real issues with the leadership?
    Another, Like Pete Wishart, that needs to grow up and get real over Indy.

  6. Muscleguy says:

    I suggest it’s getting a bit late and the field more crowded than when you first floated the idea. The ISP is getting organised now, call has gone out for experienced organisers to apply to set up regional branches so branch Zoom meetings can get going.

    Then we can vote about fleshing out the policy envelope as the leadership has promised. That will be, um, interesting. What my fellow party members think about things other than the main policy platforms.

  7. Robert graham says:

    It’s obvious that a good number of people operating at the top in the SNP have lost touch with the whole aim of the SNP ,
    They seem to believe that devising ways to distract the members from the main aim and in turn distancing themselves from the awkward squad in the independence movement is the way to go , the awkward squad being the ones who actually want independence or at the very least some kind of fight towards that aim ,
    most comments I have seen recently seem to be aimed at shutting up the ones who have the bloody cheek in urging the ones at the top of the SNP remember who are only there because of our votes ,
    OUR VOTES not their property our property and support can be removed if instructions are not followed , Please remember that PETE you can be replaced pal . In fact all of you can be replaced you are only there because we allow you to be there please don’t become Labour MK 2 we all know what happened to that party.

  8. Newburghgowfer says:

    Funny isnt it that you never read from unionist supporters criticism on the woeful job that they do but with the Scottish Naive Party and its legion of devotees they have a go at anybody who derides or cast doubts on their capabilities. Spoke to my Old Pal yesterday who was a staunch Indy supporter but is so sick at the pathetic attitude of the Snp that he was thinking of throwing the towel on Indy. I explained about how next year it may be that I either dont vote at all or only vote in the list category as the Shambolic Nincompoop Party are not definitely not getting our votes.
    We at least are in agreement that someone might get our list vote but its not looking good for the devotees who think they are a shoe in next year.

  9. Stu hutch says:

    If you do go for a list party will you join/work with the other partys and park personalities at the door ? .we really cant split the vote this close to an election.if we all stick together we can do this but I fear even 2 list partys the greens and snp going for list vote will lose us what we all want.sadly it’s the pete wishart of this world that have caused this for there own personal gain.he should not be attacking the people that have voted him a comfortable life for the last 20 many food banks have opened in scotland since then.children living in poverty.pensioners deciding food or fuel.the snp are becoming scottish labour 2.0.and they know the torys are going to make it worse still. but sit on there hands.sorry rant over

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I suggest it’s getting a bit late and the field more crowded than when you first floated the idea.”

    It’s not late at all. The Brexit Party was formed about 10 minutes before the European elections that it won, and we wouldn’t even be trying to WIN an election, just pick up some votes.

    The “crowded field” is a red herring. If – for the sake of argument – Alex Salmond started a list party for the election I think it’s a safe bet that pretty much anyone who’d been thinking of voting for one of the other new parties would vote for his instead because it’d obviously be most likely to succeed.

  11. Bob Mack says:

    The only suitable words that I can possibly think are:

    “Et tu Brute”.

    That this blog which has pushed Independence for years, should be so described by a benefactor of that same blog is astounding.

    Rather confirms the inflated self opinion some SNP members have of their own contribution to Independence. Especially in this case where the guy wanted to apply for the position of Speaker in the very establishment he promised to bring down.

    Is it just me?

  12. stonefree says:

    Utter pish,
    To be clear it is the reverse,
    I got fed up with the shite against Wing and phoned up the SNP (early 2014) and said they should be thanking Wings,
    a man McCann told me they didn’t like the language, “What are you talking about ?” He referred to calling Alex Johnstone an arsehole., I replied “But he is”
    McCann said “we know, but he didn’t have to say it”
    Later when I joined the SNP,the convener said I was not to post on Wings, I was not to post on English web sites( I posted only to answer questions about Independence and answer what they concerns about,
    I never had any trouble till Fat Arse opened her mouth.
    Once Sturgeon got in charge they the branch became more hostile, right wing and clique-like
    I sat there probably the last time and thought ” These are fucking tories ,What the hell am I doing here”

  13. Wendy says:

    Pete Wishart blocked me a while ago. Ten or so years of fannying round Westminster has gone to his head, now a fully integrated member of the British establishment. Come a long way from being a mediocre musician, at least he has a nice pension pot bubbling away.

  14. Me Bungo Pony says:

    If a pro-indy List party scores highly in polls in the next few months without the ant-SNP sh*t damaging its constituency vote …. then fine, go with it to maximise pro-indy MSPs.

    However, if as expected it gets diddly squat in the polls …. it should withdraw from the contest before it does any real damage to the cause of independence.

  15. Dan Watt says:

    Hurry up and do it rev, the SNP sure as fuck needs the competition and the list parties need an actual well known person with a bit of clout to give people someone to vote for

  16. David Rodgers says:

    This is slightly tangential but you do mention the cosy careers of Pete Wishart & co. in today’s article. What about the SNP MPs taking part in House of Commons committees? Last week saw Stewart Hosie speaking in Westminster about supposed Russian interference! What’s that got to do with independence? he even asked rhetorically the security services to find out about the dastardly Russian meddling! Surely shome mishtake?

  17. Socrates MacSporran says:

    But Stuart, nev er forget – Wishart is a pianist, or is that a penis?

  18. Bob Mack says:

    @My Bungo Pony,

    Remarkable how you display the same attitude and traits as Mr Wishart!

    Are the SNP running training courses on arrogance?

  19. Alison says:

    Cosy feet Pete will never change. My late grandfather used to call the SNP tartan Tories and I never agreed but Pete sure fits that bill more and more each day

  20. Tam Fae somewhere says:

    Pete Wishart,

    We SHOULD be swearing at getting pulled out of the EU when Scotland voted to stay and at the lack of independence progress in the last few years.

  21. winifred mccartney says:

    Wishart is far too comfortable on the green benches and far too friendly with WM – he has lost his way – imagine wanting to be speaker in the house of horrors.

  22. Asklair says:

    Whiny Wishart blocked me, he has settled in well at Westminster.

  23. Polly says:

    Yes I saw how whiny he was and how ridiculous. But good you’re putting the wind up them. There’s a reason you’re hated by unionist, which is obvious and expected; you’ve always been hated by the ‘prim and proper’ sort who clung to FM once she was elected, which again is pretty obvious; you’re now hated by TRAs for showing folk how dangerous their ideology is, not surprisingly; you’re hated by some in the party now who who want to continue with present course, not surprising either. What is infuriating is the lies they say about you. When I was more prim and proper I heard words like misogynist, then Dugdale saying homophobe, TRAs saying transphobic, now Wishart ‘he hates us’. Seems to me many in the party always hated you and many people have lied about you. If I looked at it carefully and can see that clearly so can others.

    You’ve notched up the right type of enemies. And you’ve gained more supporters because of your standing up and speaking truth to power even if it is our own side who needs to hear it. Stay strong.

  24. John H. says:

    Somebody should tell Pete Wishart that, unlike him,Stuart Campbell actually believes in independence. As regards the Salmond inquiry, I fear that there has been too much time for alibis to be formed, and evidence hidden, for us to fully get to the truth. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

  25. robertknight says:

    Blackford, Wishart & Co. in Moncrieff’s Bar at Westminster…

    Biggest obstacle to Indy? The (current) SNP leadership!

  26. shug says:

    Listening to the Gove interview this morning I could not help but notice that he refused to say Westminster would not allow a referendum in the SNP won next year. He blanked the question several times.

    He also did not want covid response politicised! He needs to have a word with the the Scottish office clerk Carlaw.

  27. Bob Mack says:

    I once read a book that described Anger as normal as long as it flows like water and disperses. When water however collects in a pool it eventually becomes like hate. Stagnant, diseased and unhealthy.

    A bit like the SNP just now. No longer the free flowing thing of hopes and dreams, but a static puddle. Inactivity is killing it.Someone somewhere needs to clear our route by offering the torrent towards Indy hope an uninhibited path to our goal.

  28. Bob Mack says:

    Anyone tell me Why the SNP should apparently fear the Rev as much as the Unionists do?


  29. Heaver says:

    That SNP plan for independence: the fucking fucker’s fucking fucked.

  30. HandandShrimp says:


    Half of Runrig were pretty devout Christians I don’t think they were at the sweary, booze fuelled, hotel wrecking end of the rock spectrum.

  31. jfngw says:

    As we strive for independence Pete Wishart is excited about the amount of time he has spent in Westminster, he will have the key of the door next year I believe(that’s 21 for us older types or bingo enthusiasts). What’s almost amusing is he doesn’t see this amount of time spent in the colonial capital as a failure but as a personal success, he has spent more time there than many recent Scottish unionist MP’s.

  32. Grouse Beater says:

    In all my years studying the moral issues, I’ve never come across a leader of a mass movement for civil liberties who so removed themselves from the movement as the current leadership of the SNP has managed to do.

    Not only remove themselves, but allow colleagues to condemn large sections of the movement as if people who are not normal members of the public but some sort of sub-sect.

    Did Martin Luther King really say to his staff, make sure I am not photographed with brothers and sisters carrying banners and placards?

  33. Clapper57 says:

    Pete Wishart, like many others, have chosen to forget your role in promoting independence with the superb posts on this site at a time when MSM actively railed against independence (and still do).

    Funny is it not how vocal Pete is towards you and yet strangely silent on the abuse Joanna Cherry, one of HIS colleagues, gets from the partner of another one of Pete’s colleagues.

    Is this an example of selective hearing ?

    I believe Pete W blocks people on Twitter now for asking a question that he does not want to address…..this is a hugely different approach pre 2019 GE when his seat was somewhat precarious with, I believe, a mere 21 majority….I think Pete was more ‘open’ to debate with fellow Indy peeps on Twitter then…indeed he was most obliging.

    I am a member of the SNP but that, for me, does not mean that as a member I cannot challenge or question their policies or indeed any other ‘important’ issue that I may , as a member, want to raise.

    If I and others are to be silenced into accepting total compliance with the party then that is not the party I want to be part of as a member.

    So it seems WOS that for Pete and some others within the SNP…You’re only as good as your last SNP endorsement……pretty sad and pathetic really.

    As to the ‘Majority’ loony yoons……they also claim to be silent…..a ‘silent majority’…so ‘silent’ that they are, at times, deafening in the noise they generate in their constant moaning….and such a ‘majority’ are they that in the last few elections within Scotland they have chosen NOT to elect, via a ‘majority’, a Unionist party…..Lol…..however so confident are some within their ‘majority’ that they are willing to turn to George Galloway……some would say, myself included, that in needing to do that…. then that in itself is an obvious contradiction in their claim that they are a ‘majority’…. 😉

    You either laugh or cry….or do both.

    Take care and thank you for what you do in standing your ground against many internal and external forces.

  34. Colin Alexander says:

    “Even a broken clock is right twice a day”. Pete Wishart is right about the swearing.

    As for List Parties, whether a Wings one or whatever: Brilliant! (Colin says sarcastically).

    Let’s replace BritNat colonial administrators with our own colonial administrators. Do the British Empire’s job for them – only better. After all, it’s been Scotland’s ruling elite’s role for hundreds of years: Running the British Empire, controlling the slaves, keeping down the native rebellions, suppressing independence movements.

    Why don’t we even help their British Empire propaganda machine with our money. Oh wait, the SNP have beat me to that idea with their £millions thrown to the millionaire owned Britnat media.

    Give jobs on quangos to all the Britnat ex-politicians too. Keep them in positions of unelected power and influence. Oh wait, the SNP do that too.

    I know. A big grant to the Orange Order. Have they done that yet? (Serious question).

    I want Scotland’s sovereignty restored. I want an end to the British Empire and its colonial administrator collaborators, whether they are from the SNP, ISP, Labour, Tories, LibDems, Greens or Wings Party.

    Sadly, the SNP, ISP etc all want to play in the Empire’s colonial playhouse at Holyrood.

  35. Joe says:

    ‘towards a right-wing, authoritarian, science-denying, r*pe-enabling nanny state where free speech is a crime ‘

    I know. Im sickened by right wing nanny states.

    Fucking right wingers and their small government, personal responsibility advocating, individual liberty defending nanny states.


    Thank god we’ve had the massive overwhelming influence from the left we have had. Or these right wingers might have been able to do real damage to Scotland.

  36. A Person says:


    Indeed, jointly with Carmichael he is Scotland’s longest-serving MP

  37. Athanasius says:

    The SNP? Heading in a RIGHT-WING authoritarian, science denying yadda yadda yadda? Seriously?

  38. Robert Louis says:

    We need to ask the question, just why is Pete Wishart oh so keen to condemn new pro indy list parties? What is he so afraid of?

    My guess, by the extent of his near-hysteria on such subjects in recent weeks, is perhaps more and more of his colleagues are finally starting to question his supposed ‘logic’ ,on why De Pfeffle will magically grant a section 30.

    For any SNP MP or MSP, every single day at work should be focused on progressing independence. If not, then it could be argued, that if the SNP don’t think independence is so urgent or important, then why should De Pfeffle and his murderous Tory cabal in London? Westminster sees the lack of urgency or threat from the SNP, and behaves accordingly.

    The fact that Pete Wishart wanted to be speaker in the HoC in London, tells me everything about his priorities.

  39. Bob Mack says:


    Yes really. What else would you call a Government who want to bring in legislation to stop you having any concerns about real issues for half our population.

    Speech control and thought control are not exactly the characteristics of tolerance.

  40. Patsy says:

    Spot on once again. I am still a member of the SNP but find supporting some of their policies very difficult. As for Mr Wishart, the less said the better!

  41. Auld Rock says:

    What has the Pope got to do with it??? Am I missing something???

  42. Robert graham says:

    Oh Dear the usual suspects on another Indy blog site seem to be misinterpreting your views on setting up a second Independence Party Stu , I guess they haven’t read the latest article .

    The comments I have read in the current article seem to be be clear and straight forwarding about a list Party, as was stated in fast moving and the ever shifting events a fixed point of view could be a pointless excercise particularly with one eye on the outcome of the inquiry that is about to start who’s findings might change the views of a lot of people as to management of the ruling party of government .

    Circumstances change so everyone needs to adapt to the changing events.I am watching to see what is going to be pushed in some kind of defence to the awkward questions that are about to be asked especially by the unionist MSPs on the investigating panel , I really hope the cowardly route is not taken and proceedings are not heard in private we deserve to hear the WHO, WHY & WHAT, the whole sorry saga sparing no blushes of the instigators.or indeed their political agenda .

  43. Bob Mack says:

    @Auld Rock,

    He is saying a prayer for a referendum!!

  44. I know I may have become paranoid but I am suspicious about these other list parties who appeared after Stu., suggested the idea maybe they are there to find out the tactics of the the other list parties and pass them on to you know who .I am sure if Stu.,And A.S. T.S. C.M. Etc., formed a new party they would sweep the board and we could have REAL patriots in charge of Scotland’s freedom

  45. alzyerpal says:

    Wishart is a nest-feathering fanny who toyed with the idea of applying for the WM ‘Speaker’ position.(He would probably have us believe he was only jesting, but I don’t trust a word he says.) HE is totally representative of everything which needs weeding out of the SNP.

  46. Athanasius says:

    @Bob Mack

    I’d call it leftism 101. So-called “hate speech” laws are always from the left. Centralization and authoritarianism is always of the left. I’ve said repeatedly that if new nationalist list party is ever formed it has to be of the centre right. Nobody needs yet another left-wing splinter from the SNP. You are not going to get independence over the line without the support of small c conservatives, and right now the entire nationalist movement is acting like “we don’t want YOUR dirty votes”.

  47. Clapper57 says:

    @ Heaver @ 11.16am

    ” the fucking fucker’s fucking fucked”.

    That made me laugh out loud….


  48. Sharny Dubs says:

    Stu, as I believe I’ve said before, my SNP membership is on notice.

    Just say the word.

  49. Bob Mack says:


    Mussolini____shut down voice of opponents.

    Hitler____shut down voice of opponents.

    British Empire__shut down voice of opponents.

    Any Empire ever,____shut down voice of opponents

    Trump etc etc

    Let’s agree it’s a tactic that suits many people.

  50. Joe says:

    @Bob Mack

    The right wing can be accused of having a world view that allows business to get away with too much, for the under privileged to slip through the cracks and for the vulnerable to not have the societal net that should be required. That’s down to a focus on individual responsibility, small governments and individual liberties.

    Thats fine.

    But you cannot simultaneously accuse the right wing of bringing in authoritarian, overbearing nanny states.

    Not unless you use ‘right wing’ in the same way someone who suffers from tourettes might call someone a dick.

  51. Jimmy Jo says:

    Wishart is every inch the “Tartan Tory”. (Similar to a few I could name on here).

    He is beelin because the delivery of his Ermine Robe has been delayed due to the inconvenience of this fuckin Corona Virus.

    And his hat is still in the ring for reserve speaker in the House of Commons.

    No wonder there is no appetite for Independence in the SNP with pricks like Wishart as one of their flock.

  52. Joe says:

    @Bob Mack

    Focus on individual responsibilities: right wing
    Focus on collective responsibilities: left wing

    Both have their ups and downs.

    But to lay the current situation of Scotland on the people who have been warning you all of the dangers of collectivism and the drive for ‘equality’ is fucking reprehensible and ignorant in the extreme.

  53. Andy Ellis says:

    The fact that both yoons and SNP ultras will be similarly hysterical at the prospect of a Wings party is all the evidence we need that it’s badly needed?

    Even if the current polls are right and the gradualists win a majority, it really isn’t that difficult to get a handful of MSPs on the list. Who else is going to represent the wishes of those of us who disagree with the current SNP party line? I’ve no issue with the ISP or Alliance putting out their stalls, but let’s not kid ourselves that they will have the same impact as a Wings party or something led by Alex Salmond.

    Of course the prospect terrifies the likes of Wishart, Smith, McDonald and the “Sturgeonista loyal”: they know if it doesn’t happen they’ll have a free pass to sit back and relax until 2029.

  54. Allium says:

    They complain about the swearing because its an acceptable (to them) euphemism for what they really deplore. Its mostly just classism from the self-loathing.

  55. My branch said it probably wasn’t helpful telling Tory MPs to fuck off on Twitter, under my real name.

    My defence was that what they had said to the SNP Westminster leader. In the chamber.

  56. kapelmeister says:

    It’s the phenomenon well known to sociologists. Whether it’s a political party, a trade union, a church or a social movement. A divergence happens over time between the aims of the rank and file and the aims of the leaders and their auxiliary salariat.

    Independence is only achieved by an independence movement that fervently and unashamedly strives for the goal. The current SNP leadership does not give any impression of striving for Scottish freedom.

  57. Mike Lothian says:

    If the SNP somehow become the 2nd party at Holyrood we would lose our chance of a second referendum or any other way of becoming independent

    The fact that you now seem to be actively trying to make that happen is baffling

  58. Bob Mack says:


    Right wing left wing.Al! Semantics. They are all about manipulation of the people for the benefit of the few.

    There has never been a successful Communist country nor an enduring R Wing country who overstep their mark (Usa) excepted.

    Everything is about presenting the people with pie in the sky to keep you in your elevated position.

    It works.

  59. Josef Ó Luain says:

    The self-seeking, opportunistic, natural Unionist, Wishart, has much in common with Blackford, Robertson, Russel and many another of the S.N.P’s antediluvian tweed-fetishist, cap-doffing Tendency.

    Further commonalities include: feigned political gravitas, an ability to bluster endlessly, and their marked sartorial inelegance.Tartan neck-ties FFS!

  60. Beaker says:

    Pete Wishart is the Mr Angry of the SNP at Westminster (Blackford comes a close second).

    Trying the get him to calm down is like putting smoke detectors in Hell.

  61. Andy Ellis says:

    @Mike Lothian

    Don’t be absurd. A list only party winning MSPs aims to unseat unionist seat warmers and to hold the quasi-devolutionist SNP to account.

    There is next to no chance of indyref2 this decade unless the SNP change policy. It won’t matter how big a majority they have in Holyrood if they accept a britnat veto on the vote.

    By all means tell us how they deliver this vote, other than regurgitating Wishart et al’s magical thinking that it’ll somehow just happen if only we give them one more mandate!

  62. Joe says:

    @Bob Mack

    Whether you call it collectivism/individualism or left/right it is still a concept that sticks and serves to crudely define our means of societal organisation.

    I’ve frequently said that the key is obviously balance while im more in favor of individuals being held responsible for their outcomes than the societies they inhabit.

    But what im not just letting lie is the fact that we, who favor individual responsibility and the limiting of government power, have been treated as 2nd class voters by most of the Yes movement are somehow aligned with what the complicity and spinelessness of the very same socialist-sympathizing Scottish Indy community has allowed to flourish while we were called ‘Torys’ for speaking up against it.

    Fuck that. You broke it. You own it.

  63. Grace says:

    You need to team up and start a party with Alex Salmond. It would be a huge success and the shock the snp needs. I sincerely hope Alex is intending to start a party in my opinion it’s the only thing that will really work. Wings Party would do well but Alex party would do amazingly well up to 20ish MSPs and would be able to put real pressure on for indy. And If SNP don’ achieve Indy then AS party can replace them as the Indy party in future elections and then we’ll get Indy and you can move to Scotland Stu.

  64. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Grouse Beater @ 11.34am

    Good to see you back commenting Gareth, and in such a sensible manner,

    I hope you are feeling better.

  65. Confused says:

    The Pope is a Freemason

    – as any decent conspirologicalist theoriser will tell you. Vatican 2, JP1, P2, the gay mafia.

    But is the SNP still “nationalist”?

    Also, the REV must resume his bear patrol, to investigate their toilet habits.

    Nothing makes sense anymore.

  66. Graeme says:

    @ Mike Lothian

    No indy supporter wants to make the SNP the second party at Holyrood, but we can’t go on ignoring the fact that far too many in the party have not only become ambivalent to independence but openly hostile to those that support it, especially wankers like Pete Wishart.

    The concept of a list party as I understand it is not to take seats from the SNP but to enhance the independence representation in Holyrood, remove foreign seat warmers & put put some pressure on the SNP to do what we elect them to do

  67. Sinky says:

    BBC UK TV news majoring on care home staff shortages in Scotland forgetting to mention these are private care homes and that UK Gov is preventing overseas staff from coming to Scotland.

    Also why has BBC national news refused to broadcast the daily deaths and new Covid cases for each home Nation rather than a UK total?

    Is this to protect the English government and to prevent showing that Scotland is dealing with Covid so much better than Johnson and Co

  68. shug says:

    I am almost ready to put money on the nationalists including Ref 2 in the next manifesto. If they had “big balls” they could take a result as straight to negotiate the end of the union. The key is getting more than 50% of the vote.

    Having listened to Gove today I think Westminster will support another referendum if there is evidence the people want it. Note that is different from the seat counts.

    The party will always be against list parties for 2 reasons – they want to keep a good relationship with the Greens and the unionists would say they are cheating. This is not to say they give it a nod.

    If Salmond supports it, it’s good enough for me.

    Salmond is a wheeler dealer politician Nicola is a lawyer and more used to sound protocols and procedures. We need both!

  69. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The SNP? Heading in a RIGHT-WING authoritarian, science denying yadda yadda yadda? Seriously?”

    Maybe try clicking the links.

  70. Bob Mack says:


    I’ve just signed up to the vaccine trial in Scotland.

    Volunteers reqd.

  71. Willie says:

    “ we hate the direction the current leadership is taking the SNP in – towards a right-wing, authoritarian, science-denying, rape-enabling nanny state where free speech is a crime and the meaningful pursuit of independence has been openly abandoned in favour of consolidating the personal power and status of the leadership and cosy Westminster MPs “

    And therein lies the absolute summary about where so many SNP and independence supporters currently sit. They are not anti SNP, far from it in fact. But they are unhappy where the leadership is taking them.

    Change the leadership, or change the leadership direction and the picture changes, and changes dramatically. And with that the only question that remains is about the creation of an independent list party would maximise the number of Scottish Parliamentary MSPs – and that should not be a difficult question because we are all, or should be, on the same side.

    (In fact, why would anyone committed to independence object to potential super majority of independence MSPs unless they are comfortable with the status quo? )

    But if there is no change, if those who feel comfortable, entitled and uncommitted to independence as the current leadership is, then the alternative list party becomes another animal altogether, and not just a party to maximise the number of Indy seats.

    Scotland has the opportunity to change. The current SNP leadership has the opportunity to change. A list party could well be created that would assist that change. The electorate will understand that.What Independence supporter could disagree ?

    Wings Over Scotland is playing its part in stimulating debate. It is not anti SNP, never has been and is absolutely pro independence. Only ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s, fifth columnists, or the slovenly comfortable of which there are now a few would say otherwise.

    Keep up the good work Rev Stu – sites like WoS, Craig Murray and many others do invaluable service.

  72. SilverDarling says:


    I remember too when Pete Wishart courted the more vocal indy supporter in the heady post 2015 days when he felt he was untouchable. He frequently called all No voters ‘Nawbags’ to their consternation. His hubris was embarrassing. He was giddy with the win and it turned his head.

    Fast forward to 2017 when his majority was slashed, some good SNP people were lost and he realised Twitter was not his alone. He started fawning over the hunting and shooting types, toning down his language and ever part of his demeanour signalled that Independence would not be any time soon if they would just vote for him.

    We are now at the stage where he has decided those who supported him in the lean days are the enemy and the nice middle ground are to be nurtured. Heaven forfend , he is not one of ‘those’ Indy supporters. To complete his Damascene insights he has to eschew any naughty words and deny any previous associations.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the House of Lords no doubt just to keep a watchful eye on his old pals.

  73. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If the SNP somehow become the 2nd party at Holyrood we would lose our chance of a second referendum or any other way of becoming independent

    The fact that you now seem to be actively trying to make that happen is baffling”

    I’m pretty sure you can’t really be this stupid so please stop pretending.

  74. tartanfever says:

    Can’t wait until the unionists get together to form a list party, it’s surely only a matter of time.

    As I said last night in a comment, and pointed out again by Stu in the article, next year is an election – not a referendum. It’s about who governs us in Scotland and at the present moment, I will not be voting.

    I refuse to put aside once again for the SNP core beliefs in the name of getting along the road towards Independence.

    Seems like they are trying to please the woke brigade and soft no voters by being both UK foreign policy hawks and free speech haters at the same time. The cost of that choice are people like me, whom they feel will swallow a bitter pill because independence is the ‘big picture’ and vote for them.

    Thats blackmail.

  75. Sweep says:

    So Speaker Wishart (or ‘Sir Pete’ if you prefer – and he certainly would) is once again left aghast and agape by uncouth language, and only three years after his own little “Hey, I’m down wid da Proles” moment:

    Gadzooks, etc.

  76. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “No indy supporter wants to make the SNP the second party at Holyrood”

    It’s such a monumentally fuckwitted thing to say, even just on the basic arithmetical level.

    The SNP currently have FOUR list seats. They’re the biggest party at Holyrood by a margin of THIRTY-TWO seats (63 to the Tories’ 31). If they lost every single list seat they’d have 59 seats left.

    So what Mike is saying there is that he thinks *somehow* the presence of an indy list party or parties is going to lead to the Tories winning an extra 30 seats to take 1st place – which, as nearly all of their seats come from the list, would require them to collect basically 100% of the list vote right across Scotland as well as holding all of their current constituencies. There are only 56 list seats in total.

    I mean, it’s so fucking brainless I almost banned him on the spot because that’s GOT to be trolling.

  77. alistair x says:

    well i resigned from the SNP today, or the church of scottishology as ive started to call it,dont feel up or down or angry, first joined in 86 voted for them since 79,will see what Alec S does or not and decide from there.
    Hes made mistakes but hes a patriot in the know and i dont see another Wallace or Bruce on the horizon.

  78. Republicofscotland says:

    Yes it’s still to early to see how the dice will fall on a few matters.

    Wishart who’s spent so long at Westminster has settled in nicely, and sees any other indy party or movement as a threat to his and Sturgeon’s political ambitions in Scotland.

    On a more upbeat note Jim Fairlie Jr shows us a way out of this wretched union, via the Treaty of Union which is completely within Holyrood’s remit.

    Now if we could only remove Sturgeon and her clique, and replace them with independence minded folk in the party we might actually get somewhere.

  79. dakk says:

    ” Politics, and indeed society as a whole, is still in a state of much uncertainty and flux due to COVID-19″

    “We simply have no idea what the picture will look like a few months from now and deciding anything at this point would be like setting out to sea in a rowing-boat in a hurricane.”

    Which applies even more regards SNP trying to configure and run an indy campaign obviously.

    Swearing and bearded lady tittle tattle aside, Scotland’s participation in this new ‘wonder’ Oxford Chimpanzee virus vaccine trials is the big stick they will beat us with hardest in the coming months/years.

    The pound and pensions will be a mere bagatelle compared to threats of denying access to an alleged life saving “vaccine”in the time of Coronavirus.

    Not that I believe there is likely to be any effective vaccine anywhere(let alone UK) for Covid for several years if ever.

  80. Breeks says:


    Off topic by a mile, but I just stumbled across this… I’d never heard of it before.

    In 1507, the Scottish Navy built the largest ship in the world… twice the displacement of the Mary Rose.

    It was sold to the French after Flodden, but ‘perhaps’ was part of the French fleet during the battle where the Mary Rose sank.

    Doesn’t it just make you wonder what Scotland might have achieved without the curse of the British Union? We weren’t too wee or too poor in the 16th Century, we were building the biggest warship on the planet in a Scottish Dockyard for the Scottish Navy.

    Back in the days when Scotland had a backbone mind…

  81. Republicofscotland says:

    Mr Fairlie’s article really is worth reading so for those who can’t access it, or are too lazy to click the link, I’m sure Stu knows about folk not clicking links, anyway here is in full.

    “IN 2017, I was an Oxford Farming Conference panellist at The Royal Highland Show with former LibDem MEP and fellow farmer George Lyon. The topic was the future of farming following the Brexit vote.

    Before the discussion, I asked George for his thoughts, and he confidently asserted that farming would benefit from Brexit. I told him my guess was the opposite, and that I greatly feared what would happen to powers over agriculture, labelling and food standards post-Brexit. I suspected the UK Government was planning a power grab and that that would be very bad news for farmers and consumers alike.

    Without a hint of irony, when I mentioned this from the rostrum, George attacked me for politicising the issue and accused me of “stoking nationalism”. What I simply don’t understand is why some people consider being called a nationalist – and wanting to prioritise Scotland’s needs – is an insult.

    Fast forward to 2020, and it’s quite clear the fears I expressed were justified. Add abandoning our Protected Geographical Indicators – which are so essential to underpinning produce provenance – and impending trade deals with the biggest agricultural producers in the world, a No-Deal Brexit and lowering of food and animal welfare standards, and I think it’s fair to say those of us who predicted trouble ahead have been completely vindicated.

    We are not soothsayers, we’ve just lived with Westminster long enough to recognise patterns of behaviour. And, as concerning as that is, it’s nothing compared to the consequences of failing to take control of, and declaring, our sovereign will.

    I have written two articles recently about our constitutional future.

    I recognise the SNP and Scottish Government’s position of seeking co-operation from Westminster.

    I understand the desire to exhaust all avenues and to reach an unequivocal legal decision that will be recognised internationally. At the same time, I fear that Westminster will continue to illegitimately stall progress by exploiting a flaw in the Scotland Act of 1998, which contradicts the sovereignty of the Scottish people and reserved powers over constitutional affairs to Westminster. It is clear the UK Government, in agreeing to devolution, clearly considered it as a means to stop independence rather than advance its progress. It is now using the contradiction of “giving devolved powers to Scotland” as a means of neutering our control over our future.

    Devolution really is coming of age.

    A sovereign people do not require permission from any outside authority to decide their constitutional future, and we must make sure that message is heard loud and clear, not only in Westminster, but, just as importantly, here in Scotland.

    Even those in the Yes movement do not fully appreciate the real value and power we have as a sovereign people. That’s hardly surprising, given that Unionists have doggedly perpetrated the myth that Westminster is the sovereign body. We already have the powers we need. We’ve had them all along.

    Westminster may well have control over the laws of the land by virtue of the Act of Union, but it certainly doesn’t have unilateral control when it comes to the Treaty of The Union, and it is on the Treaty that we must focus our attention.

    Despite warning of the divide-and-conquer technique which has so often been used to undermine our movement, my proposed discussion about the strength of our sovereignty and how we exercise it, has been seemingly dismissed. That, along with other ideas mooted by the wider independence movement, have even been described as “grandstanding chaff”.

    These reactions are neither helpful nor constructive and smack of a reluctance, or flat-out refusal, to expose any new proposal to robust debate and scrutiny. Historically, the SNP have never shied away from such deliberations. Indeed, it is the high quality of debate that has kept the membership engaged and has delivered clearly-thought-out positions on policy.

    The Scottish people’s sovereign rights are long established, rooted in history and law – from the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, the 1689 Claim of Right, the 1989 Claim of Right right up to the Half Day Motion Brought by the SNP at Westminster.

    Ian Blackford opened the debate on July 4, 2018, on the motion: “That this House endorses the principles of the Claim of Right for Scotland, agreed by the Scottish Constitutional Convention in 1989 and by the Scottish Parliament in 2012, and therefore acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.”

    He said: “The principle of unlimited sovereignty of parliament is a distinctly English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law – those words are not mine. They are the words of the Lord President of the Court of Session in 1953 during the case of MacCormick v the Lord Advocate.”

    Blackford went on: “The Claim of Right is not simply a historical document but a fundamental principle that underpins the democracy and constitutional framework of Scotland.”

    It was striking that most MPs in that debate, including devout Unionists, agreed with this but refused to recognise the hypocrisy of backing the UK Government position of refusing to co-operate with a Section 30 order request.

    Sovereignty is not just some archaic tradition we read about, misty-eyed, in our history books, dreaming of ancient glories or mystical times. It’s real. It’s ours. It’s powerful and it matters. Allan MacInnes, Professor Emeritus of History at Strathclyde University, who is an authority on the constitution, has articulated to me the fundamental difference between the Act of Union and the Treaty of Union. While devolution can be established via the Act of Union and cannot be altered by Holyrood, the Treaty of Union is entirely within the Scottish Parliament’s remit.

    Fundamentally, as the vehicle for the people of Scotland’s democratic voice, the democratically elected Scottish Government can revisit, revise or alter the Treaty of Union at any time, if they are acting on the sovereign will of the people

    But how do we demonstrate the sovereign will of the people when the quite wrongly termed “legal“ route is blocked by an intransigent Westminster, blatantly trying to usurp our sovereign rights?

    I propose the SNP and others wishing to achieve independence must have in their manifestos for Holyrood 2021 a commitment, at the behest of the sovereign people of Scotland, to resume responsibility for constitutional affairs, which was misappropriated by Westminster in the 1998 Scotland Act. Should Westminster refuse to co-operate or try to place any conditionality on any agreements, then, by direct instruction from the people of Scotland, the Parliament will revisit the terms of the Treaty of Union.

    By our sovereign will of voting for parties who agree to assume constitutional affairs at our instruction, we are demonstrating that we, the people, have exercised our sovereign right to choose. It will then be for the people of Scotland to decide whether to continue with, alter or leave the Union at a time of our choosing. This is entirely within the scope of Holyrood as the sovereign voice of the people, because we are revisiting the Treaty of Union, not the Act of Union.

    Clearly, the leadership of the SNP are doing right now what we expect them to do, and that is manage the crisis brought about by a global pandemic. The fact Nicola Sturgeon is being cited as having managed this crisis with a degree of competence that Boris Johnson can only watch and envy, is in no way a political stunt on the Scottish Government’s part, despite how the increasingly desperate Tories’ attempt to portray it as such. But it certainly has illustrated our effective, competent governance and demonstrated to doubters that Scotland is eminently capable of managing its own affairs.

    It’s critical that the party leadership stay focused on that job, but it doesn’t mean that other SNP figures cannot be exploring our strategy to deliver on the very founding principles of our party – independence.

    There has never been a more opportune or critical moment for us to exercise our sovereign rights.

    Let’s grasp it with both hands, assure the leadership we are primed and ready to go, and that we want them to lead us into the next stage of our journey in returning the power to where it belongs – with us, the sovereign people of Scotland.”

  82. Willie says:

    The attack by Pete Wishart on Stu Campbell is I have to say appalling and it epitomises what many feel is wrong with certain quarters within the SNP.

    Pete Wishart has been an MP for nearly twenty years. He had a very successful career with one of Scotland’s finest bands – Runrig.

    Pete is probably a millionaire many times over and he earns a good salary, pension and expenses as an MP. Indeed, as an MP in a priorly Conservative constituency he is probably well suited to that constituency.

    However as an SNP MP, supposedly committed to independence why would he attack another independence supporter. He may disagree with Stu Campbell’s swearing, but how can he disagree with Campbell’s commitment to independence.

    But then again Pete wanted to be considered for the position of Speaker of the House of Commons,, an institution independence supporters want to leave, his job request maybe that tells you something about being comfortable.

    But I come not to undermine Pete Wishart. Maybe he is honourable, maybe he sees things differently. And if he is these things, then he should not indulge in personal attacks on other independence supporters, one of whom who has done more in the cause of independence than he has.

  83. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Which applies even more regards SNP trying to configure and run an indy campaign obviously.”

    Sigh. No it doesn’t. Nobody’s asking them to “run an indy campaign” at the moment, people are asking them to have a plan to secure a referendum to campaign IN. Which they manifestly don’t have and have very little detectable interest in developing.

    And btw, if they hadn’t dicked around so uselessly for the last four years, we might have been independent by now and able to protect ourselves properly against the virus like New Zealand did, or at least have enjoyed the assistance of the EU.

  84. Joe says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    28 July, 2020 at 1:42 pm
    “The SNP? Heading in a RIGHT-WING authoritarian, science denying yadda yadda yadda? Seriously?”

    Maybe try clicking the links.

    Corporatist might be the word your looking for.

  85. CameronB Brodie says:

    What I want to know is, why do so many in the SNP hierarchy consider themselves above the law? If they weren’t of this opinion, we might have been able to count on a more robust defense of Scotland’s constitutional identity. It’s wasters like Wishart who are actively helping English Torydum to destroy democracy in Scotland. Not a wee bit of swearing from and indy blogger.

  86. CameronB Brodie says:

    I though I’d cracked it, and managed to get all the typos, sorry.

  87. David Holden says:

    Perhaps Pete should try swearing as he could just about come over as a bit more human.

  88. Stuart MacKay says:


    Scots are naturally good at naval architecture and marine engineering. See also,

  89. Jonathan Marshall says:

    Perhaps the time has come to petition Alex Salmond to lead the List party. Having now analysed how my list vote counted… Or perhaps didn’t count! Means I am now willing to split my votes 1SNP even though I disagree with them on many issues 2 A list party headed by A Samond that I hope has an interesting manifesto to achieve Scottish Independance… Mon Alex it’s now time to see that Bonnet again.

  90. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is the legal position the SNP are not prepared to adopt, as it would require them to defend Scotland from Westminster’s populist constitutionalism. And ditch genderwoowoo and the Hate Crime bill.


  91. Breeks says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    28 July, 2020 at 2:04 pm
    Mr Fairlie’s article really is worth reading so for those who can’t access it, or are too lazy to click the link, I’m sure Stu knows about folk not clicking links, anyway here is in full….

    Yes! Yes! Yes!

    Shouting out for Scottish Sovereignty is like bellowing into a big black cave, waiting for an echo that never comes. Then you read a comment like that and the sense of affirmation it gives you is a tremendous lift for the soul.

    So what has happened between Ian Blackford commending the Claim of Right in 2018, and the Ian Blackford of 2020 who did nothing when Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution was subjugated? Has he gone soft? He surely cannot plead ignorance. Or is he restrained by orders from above? We need to know Ian Blackford. What are you afraid of?

    I’m going to bellow another word into that big, black cave, and that word is ‘impeachment’. Because if the Scottish Government does not start to respect the popular sovereignty of the people, then they will have earned the impeachment which will follow.

  92. schrodingers cat says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    people are asking them to have a plan to secure a referendum to campaign IN.

    what would your plan be?

  93. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here one that might convince folk the current SNP are not doing enough to defend Scotland’s democracy.

    Remember, we don’t enjoy legal rights in Brexitania, we have to make do with allowances and privileges that can be removed in the blink of an eye by Westminster. Human rights can’t be separated from the individual, so Westminster can’t support human rights, and maintain the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty.

    Commission comments on plans for Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission

    Kavita Chetty, Head of Strategy and Legal at the Commission, said:

    “We do not yet know the exact remit and scope of the Commission announced today. However, given previous threats to the Human Rights Act from the current UK Government, we have concerns about its intended purpose.

    “The Human Rights Act is an important part of the UK’s constitutional framework within which devolved powers are exercised in Scotland. In the context of Brexit and the loss of rights protections from the European Union, the Human Rights Act plays an ever more critical role in providing a threshold of protections across the UK.

    “The Commission has expressed longstanding opposition to the regressive nature of previously mooted proposals to repeal and replace the Human Rights Act. This important law, and the culture of respect for people’s rights that it promotes, has had an immensely positive impact on people’s lives including in hospitals, schools, prisons, care homes and workplaces.

  94. Andy Ellis says:


    For someone who posts a shed load on here you’re not very alert, are you?

    Expect one of Uncle Stuey’s patent sweary responses in 3….2…1 🙂

  95. dakk says:

    , we might have been independent by now and able to protect ourselves properly against the virus like New Zealand did, or at least have enjoyed the assistance of the EU.

    No doubt SNP were wrong footed by the Westminster Brexit contortions and possibly missed some opportunities albeit loaded with risk.

    The new dynamic of a high profile Pro indy list party(sweary or not) is required to increase focus/momentum.

    Probably always was required.

    Going forward, unless the Oxford chimp vaccine blackmail can be countered effectively with plausible alternatives, then I fear we will be wrong footed yet again.

  96. defo says:

    One has to consider what the motives are for Mr Kelly’s anti-list stance.

    Trans curious?

  97. Clapper57 says:

    Just read that a list of peerages to be announced later this week and Ruth Davidson’s name MAY be on it….that’s RUTH DAVIDSON who due to family commitments has to stand down from SCOTTISH parliament but with SAME family commitments can commit time to sit in HOL’s…..and be AWAY from her …family commitments….are you following this at the back ???…..

    May I be the first to offer her my contempt….

  98. Alastair Ewen says:

    Fuck me!

  99. Clapper57 says:

    @ Silverdarling

    Oops meant to add in my previous comment.. a Hello to Silverdarling hope you and yours are well.

    Good comment as usual by you.

    Have a nice evening…lovely to see you on here again.

  100. dakk says:

    The new deputy Cmo for Scotland was doing some serious plugging for the Oxford vaccine on the daily briefing.

    It set off some more alarm bells on a few fronts for me.

    Yes, including the possibility of an excuse for Scot gov prevaricating on indy.

    If we put all eggs in AZ/Ox trials we’ll be hung out to dry.

    Wonder what the likes of NZ,and other progressive small non EU countries are pursuing re vaccine trials.

  101. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Willie 3:04pm
    “However as an SNP MP, supposedly committed to independence why would he attack another independence supporter”.

    Have you read the posts on this site. Attacking other Indies is the new blood sport round here. Why should Pete Wishart be denied participation?

  102. CameronB Brodie says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    Wishart is a narrow minded, legally illiterate, political armature, who is apparently not prepared to support Scotland’s democracy.

  103. Oneliner says:

    @Clapper 57

    Ruth Davidson is merely following the precedent set by Nicol Stephen who quit the Liberal Dilettantes to spend more time with his family (and less facing Alex Salmond).

    But everything got sorted with the lure of dead rodent trimming.

  104. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Bob Mack 10:45 am
    “Remarkable how you display the same attitude and traits as Mr Wishart! Are the SNP running training courses on arrogance”?

    Care to explain where the arrogance is in my post and why you don’t consider it simple common sense?

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    The SNP’s leadership have their heads so firmly rammed up the arsehole of British constitutionalism, that they are blind to the needs of justice and democracy.

  106. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @CBB 3:41pm

    I don’t know the man so can’t speak to his character or legal knowledge. However, as he has been abused wholesale on this and other sites I ask again, why should Pete Wishart be denied participation in this new Indy blood sport

  107. Andy Ellis says:


    LOLZ. Common sense and your input are 2 circles that intersect at no point on the Venn diagram of Wings commentary.

  108. callmedave says:


    Well I know that ship. It has been mentioned before on here and a few comments made years ago now. I believe even the Mr Peffers indulged us.

    Oh Scotland where did it all go wrong?
    We were an great and wealthy independent Nation once 🙁

    I did read Mr Fairlie Jnr’s piece this morning in ‘The National’
    The sovereignty approach.

  109. dakk says:

    “Have you read the posts on this site. Attacking other Indies is the new blood sport round here.”


    Cammy b alone takes enough friendly fire to decimate an army.

  110. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 3:52pm

    Perhaps you can explain it then?

  111. CameronB Brodie says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    I deny the man nothing, though he appears content to deny Scots access to justice.

  112. CameronB Brodie says:

    dakk 🙂

  113. Andy Ellis says:


    It’s fairly simple: Wishart is an MP and public figure. He could and should act differently. Vulgar abuse is something all public figures receive, he’s no different except in his inability to engage with those who disagree with him or positively debate even. He has an ego of oceanic width and a skin of graphene depth – it’s not a great look for a politician.

    One might have expected him to have more important things to do than subject pro indy folk (particularly women) to patronising misogynistic responses on twittter!

  114. David R says:

    If you do start a political party I can assure you that a lack of swearing will loose you a vote.

  115. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scots might actually be able to access human rights, if the SNP’s leadership were to adopt an appropriate legal position to defend Scotland from British constitutionalism. However, Westminster is being allowed to treat all those living in Scotland as sub-human, and to remove us further from the international rule-of-law. Yet we have Wishart urging us to be polite.

    Remember, British constitutionalism is political in nature, not legal. There is no codified written constitution, and constitutional law is created in an ad hoc manner. This simply does not support liberal democracy, though is does support English Torydum and populist constitutionalism.

    International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 9, Issue 1, January 2011, Pages 86–111
    Political constitutionalism and the Human Rights Act

    Many commentators portray the Human Rights Act (HRA) as marking the demise of Britain’s “political constitution.” This article argues otherwise. The HRA need not be taken as handing over supremacy for rights adjudication from the legislature to the courts.

    First, the HRA brings “rights home,” strengthening, in certain respects, domestic rights instruments vis-à-vis the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). Second, sections 19 and 4 of the Act maintain and potentially enhance Parliament’s scrutiny of rights and its sovereignty over the courts in defining and upholding them. Finally, section 3 and rights-based judicial review generally can be assimilated to a system of “weak” review whereby courts defer to the legislative “scope,” as determined by Parliament, and are restricted in their independent determinations to the judicial “sphere” of the fair conduct of the case at hand.

    Such weak review, so called, has always been necessary. However, the HRA potentially reinforces judicial deference by giving it a stronger statutory basis. That the HRA could strengthen rather than undermine political constitutionalism need not mean it does or will. However, the implication of this article is that it ought to be regarded as doing so, with the judiciary acting accordingly.

  116. callmedave says:


    N. Ireland……today…..00……….Total……556….BBC
    England………today….*12..*sun….Total…^41282…WM Gov
    UK…………….119……….Total….45878…WM Gov

  117. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 4:04pm

    A fair point (barring the ironic abuse) regarding Mr Wishart, but that was not what was being referred to. It was my post of 10:40am that Bob had replied to that was being referred to.

  118. Brian says:

    James Kelly and Peter Wishart will not accept that there my be a different route to Indy other than the S30 route.
    If they really wanted Indy they’d be looking at lots of different options.
    I’m hoping they don’t implode but the SNP needs to have a long hard look at itself. We keep pointing out they are starting to sound like Labour did only 15 years ago. That they can’t see it is tragic.
    I need a good SNP candidate in Edinburgh to oust Ian Murray at the next GE. Not sure I’ll get it.

    Keep up the good work Stu. It’s great to have you back.

  119. Confused says:

    cancel culture, public morality, private squalor, faraway genocide …
    this is very good, worth a full read – the war nerd on the british empire

    talking bollocks aids and abets the worst crimes, writers ink in blood, for a crust and some sales

  120. Andy Ellis says:


    Another easy one. You exhibit the same inability as Wishart to justify your responses or to argue in good faith. As others have observed it’s the MO that helped kill Scottish Labour stone dead. One might have expected the SNP to have learned that lesson, but from the Sturgeonista ultras on here it appears not…..

  121. Bob Mack says:

    @My Bungo Pony,

    How on earth can a pro Indy LIST party, set up for the specific aim of Independence cause “real” damage to Independence?

    That is exactly the attitude of the SNP and those like Wishart who think it is their shall we say “ticket” to being elected.

    There’s nothing like having a captive audience.It’s arrogant and entitled.

  122. kapelmeister says:

    If we had all been told in 1999 when Scotland’s parliament reconvened that there would be an independence referendum in 2014, I don’t think many of us would have been greatly astonished.

    Imagine though, if we had been told in 1999 that in 2020 an SNP government would be facing the dual situation of Scotland being unwillingly taken out of EU membership and Westminster arbitrarily stripping Holyrood of serious powers. And that said SNP government was reluctant to push for an independence referendum despite No only narrowly winning an indyref in 2014 on the outright promises of no change to Scotland’s EU status and no diminution of devo powers.

    Imagine if we had then been told that this SNP government invested far more energy in pursuing transgender and hate crime legislation than in campaigning to get Scotland free of Westminster’s autocratic domination. There would have surely been astonishment all round in 1999.

  123. Andy Ellis says:


    I doubt the “big tent” approach to indy will survive past 2021 if the SNP remains in thrall to the devolutionary gradualists. For good or ill the SNP has been the only game in town for the Yes movement: it served as the engine for achieving indy. We didn’t have a Catalan style coalition of different parties, just one SNP elephant and a green mouse.

    Sadly that imbalance, and the arrogance, lack of judgement and political cowardice of the current leadership and activist base, has contrived a situation where the Yes movement is basically in hock to a party that it fat, dumb and happy with the status quo.

    Since we can’t depend on the SNP to actually deliver even indyref2, still less actual independence, this side of 2039 there is now zero mileage in saying we should still trust them, or not split the pro-indy vote, or not play into the britnats hands etc. etc.

    However often Wishart et al insist we are close, or that we just have to “hold, ….HOLD”, or give them just one more mandate, it doesn’t make their magical thinking any more true. We are likely to have at least 5 years to come up with a “real” independence party, rather than a flaccid quasi devo-max party.

    A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.

  124. Fireproofjim says:

    The Great Michael, James IV’s massive ship, was built at Newhaven on the Forth and according to my school history teacher, took all the oak woods of Fife to build.
    It was captained by Andrew Barton, said to be the greatest mariner in Europe, and was the flagship of a great Scottish Navy.
    Callmedave says “Scotland, where did it go wrong?” Easy. A bunch of aristocrats sold us out In 1707 for a bribe to pay off their debts. The same families still occupy positions of influence in Scotland. As Robert Burns said, “A parcel of rogues”.

  125. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 4:22pm & Bob Mack 4:32pm

    I stated that if a pro-indy List party is polling well …. fine, we should all vote for it and maximise Indy MSPs. But if not …. it should pull out to ensure no Indy MSPs are lost.

    Are you seriously stating that even if the pro-indy party is doing squat in the polls, and threatening an indy majority, it should go ahead anyway …. just because?

    It’s been shown in article after article on the web, in these threads and by the Rev himself, that a Pop-Up doing poorly in the polls, but taking votes off the SNP, could deny an Indy majority in Holyrood. A drop in the List vote saw the SNP lose its majority in 2016. What more “justification” do you need?

    The whole thrust of my (and of every other opponent of the “cunning plan”) argument here is the exact opposite of “taking voters for granted”. I know the SNP cannot assume their constituency vote will hold up. It’s the “cunning plan” advocates who are assuming that. If it doesn’t, the whole premise of the “cunning plan” falls apart and independence is lost for a (genuine) generation or longer.

    That is my “justification”. What is yours for bashing on regardless beyond “just because”?

  126. Breeks says:

    Far be it from me to tell these List Parties what their agenda should be, but I would really like to see one of them seize the initiative on a Constitutional approach to Independence, and at least try to have the conversation which the SNP shuns.

    Just think how richer the debates before 2014 might have been if there’d been constructive debate between two pro-Indy factions comparing the merits of a democratic approach to Indy and the alternative constitutional approach. We’d have been discussing options that would have opened so many people’s eyes to the truth, but no Unionist was ever going to engage with those discussions.

    I firmly believe this missing dynamic would have helped the Independence cause stand it’s ground and not be continually led by the Unionist’s tired and repetitive narrative. Apart from anything else, the Section 30 farce would never have materialised if the all the players were fully briefed on Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

    It speaks volumes that the SNP consider the List Parties to be a nuisance rather than a potentially lucrative ally.

    The sad truth is it’s probably too late now to introduce the Constitutional approach to a wider audience through informative discussions. If we are to save ourselves from the damage of Brexit, we need to skip the introductions and get right down to the Constitutional interdiction and legal test cases.

    It’s depressing to note how little urgency there seems to be on the matter.

  127. Gregor says:

    Shared Western/UK/Scottish values: Freedom of expression (thought & choice)

    Freedom of expression (e.g. the act of ‘swearing’ driven by emotions/feelings/facts/evidence/questionable action/s of others’) is perfectly normal and healthy.

    Those who systematically attack, undermine, and/or attempt to control/dictate our fundamental shared values (Your/our Right to freely express, think & choose) can be considered societal freaks (& pose a significant threat to society ?).

  128. CameronB Brodie says:

    It’s more than depressing, it indicates a profound legal parochialism within the party, and subsequent inability to support democracy.

    Human rights and democracy in a global context:
    decoupling and recoupling

  129. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Greeks 5:10pm

    How would this “urgency” manifest itself? Would it require SNP elected representatives running round like Dill the Dog barking “independence” every two seconds?

  130. Fireproofjim says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    Not every two seconds but occasionally would be nice,

  131. Alex says:

    Weird, how you’d said in January that if the FM was still in place in April you’d give up on the party idea but haven’t.

    Maybe that’s why it’s news?

  132. mike cassidy says:

    Enjoying the fact you’ve upset Joe with the right-wing nanny state description.

    Read the article about who the SNP are cosying up to.

    And remember.

    One of the most right-wing regimes in South America had no problem being a ‘nanny’ state.

    They collected the children of those they murdered.

  133. CmonIndy says:

    Rev should definitely form a Wings party. Then I can ignore FIVE “Independence” parties on the regional vote by voting SNP twice.

  134. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @FpJ 5:23pm

    They raise it all the time FpJ. The “malcontents” on this thread pretend they haven’t as it would undermine their core premise of the SNP giving up on independence. This is apparently because they haven’t won us independence since the EU vote. However, the SNP has always said it would only make a move on a referendum, or whatever, when it could be reasonably assured of winning it. That is only just now coming together. Here’s what happens when you ignore careful planning and just bash on half-cocked.

    Note the abuse the culprit gets at the end of the vid. These are what would be aimed at the SNP if they’d just gone for it when Indy was trailing in the polls and indyref2 was lost. The advocates of the “bash on regardless” plan on this site would be fine though. They’d just shuffle their feet, whistle a tuneless tune and pretend “nothing to do with me guv”,

  135. Andy Ellis says:


    You’re doing what unreasoned loyalists do: making stuff up.

    A pro-indy list party doesn’t threaten the pro-indy majority. That’s just utter bullshit, sorry. I’m surprised Stu isn’t thinking of banning you for the arrant stupidity of the comment.

    “Pop-up” parties as you call them have won seats in every Holyrood election: RISE/SSP, the pensioner party, Greens and indies like Margo, often on fairly trivial numbers/% of the list vote. A concerted effort by a more visible party will (as repeated analysis & polling demonstrates) deprive unionists of seats, because around a million SNP list votes are essentially wasted.

    You and your ilk simply don’t accept this fact, but it remains a fact.

    There is literally no point in voting SNP on the list in the current political environment. The question is, why do you and tub thumping ultra loyalists like James Kelly (or quixotic bloviating blow hards like Peter Bell) insist on rubbishing a “cunning plan” which has no down side for the Yes movement?

    It’s beyond bizarre at this point.

    The reason the chance of achieving indy are in peril is not the (totally imaginary) prospect of a list only party “splitting” the vote, it’s the fact that the SNP has no Plan B, and more importantly lacks the political cojones to take the fight to the enemy even in the unlikely event they DID have a plan.

    You and those arguing what passes for your case are a clear and present danger to the chances of achieving indy in the short to medium term.

  136. CameronB Brodie says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    You appear to consider politics to be above the law. It’s this outlook that has enabled Westminster to treat Scots as slaves. Politics is incapable of delivering justice, only a respect for the rule-of-law is able to do that. Brexit is not constitutionally legal, it articulates abusive, racially informed, populist, constitutional majoritarianism. Yet the party leadership appear to consider Westminster’s authority to be legal.

    Human rights require ‘cosmopolitan constitutionalism’ and cosmopolitan law for democratic governance of public goods

  137. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 5:41pm

    There’s no debating you Andy. Even when I essentially agree with you, you throw a tantrum. From what I’ve read on Wings, nothing I’ve said here deviates far from what the Rev has already said on the matter. Why would he ban me for that?

  138. Shug says:

    Just heard a lovely wee puff piece on the BBC at 5.53 with joanna lumley saying how wonderful we are together
    Johnny beatie at his unionist best
    Get this man a sash

  139. Clapper57 says:

    @ Oneliner @ 3.43pm

    Yes…but I feel somehow that even if she is clad with Ermine she still won’t look a STOATer…. 😉

    Those down South thinks she’s a Diamond in the Rough….meanwhile here on planet Reality…..she is a …

    A ROUGHian aka Ruffian in a potential DIAMIOND mine (via upper Gravy Train aka HOL)…..follow the money….leads you to people like Ruth Honey….Monster…Lol

    Have a nice day


  140. Breeks says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:
    28 July, 2020 at 5:18 pm

    I don’t reply to facetious, patronising gobshites more than once, so this is your last reply from me.

    No, it wouldn’t see them jumping around like Dil the dog. If the SNP had any backbone, it would see them delivering an emergency ultimatum to Westminster that Brexit was a colonial violation of Scotland’s National Constitution, and thereby, Scotland would establish the belated Constitutional Backstop which the SNP should have adopted from 2016 onwards.

    If the International Community could recognise the legal status of the Good Friday Agreement, and use that as a Backstop to successfully keep Northern Ireland in Europe, there is every reason to suppose a legal affirmation of Scotland’s legitimate Constitutional Sovereignty would have secured similar backing from Europe and the International Community, and forcing Scotland into a Brexit it formally and emphatically rejected would have been a non starter.

    We have already missed the Brexit deadline, with the SNP doing nothing to defend Scotland’s interests and sovereign constitution. Jan 31st was the end of the line for Sturgeon in my book. Thoroughly disgraceful and unforced capitulation. Despicable.

    Consequently, we have much less leverage now that the deadline is the end of the transition period rather than the Brexit event itself, but the stakes are much higher and the urgency more intense, because the end of the transition period will mark the beginning of devastating deregulation and forced divergence from EU standards.

    Given that every divergence will make it that much harder for Scotland to maintain convergence criteria and easily rejoin Europe at a later date, we should expect Westminster to lay it’s damaging deregulation on thick, hard and fast from the beginning.

    We have five months protection beneath the European umbrella to cobble together some last ditch Constitutional Backstop which prevents closure of the Brexit Transitional Agreement, and forces Westminster to concede the Union has been breached and thereby destroyed by Brexit, or abandon Brexit after recognising the potency of Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty.

    I do not see the Union of the United Kingdom surviving either outcome, so the Scottish Backstop would be Scotland’s ticket out of this Union, and provide some means to resurrect the holding pen status for Scotland’s EU membership, but with all the responsibility for wrecking the UK Union laid at the feet of the reckless BritNat Brexiteers and Tory fanatics.

    All Scotland will be ‘guilty’ of is insisting that the appropriate laws and sovereign constitutions have been properly respected; just as Europe, Ireland, and indeed the US, insisted with the Good Friday Agreement, and just as European Law demands of the EU.

    Jump around like Dill the dog? Oh grow up you clown.

  141. Andy Ellis says:


    In what through the looking glass world are you agreeing with me?!

    You subscribe to the throughly debunked argument that a list only party threatens the pro-indy majority at Holyrood. You routinely caricature those who point out your idiocy as “malcontents”.

    Perhaps you missed Stu’s response to the roaster Lothian Lad up thread. One can only hope he acts on his impulse in both cases: frankly the BTL comments would be all the better for it!

  142. S.Perspective says:

    You could call it the Schroedinger Party.

  143. liz says:

    The reason Sturgeon is still here is because the Covid virus saved her arse.
    The inquiry into the Salmond affair was delayed and she’s polished her image with the help of the MSM.

    BTW Bungo don’t bother commenting on my comment cos I stroll straight past your loyalist pish.

    O/T the campaign to get Angus R selected into Edin Central continues apace.

    All the woke bros and suspect MPs are giving him their full backing.
    The constituency asked Joanna to stand but be prepared for dirty tricks

  144. Andy Ellis says:


    The Edinburgh Central selection looks like a real canary in the coal mine moment for the party. If Robertson wins, we’ll know the party is utterly lost to common sense and essentially a creature of the Sturgeonista Woko Haram. If on the other hand Joanna wins, there could still be some hope.

    In my short period as a party member when we moved back to Edinburgh I attended a few events in the Edin Central branch. I’m sure some of the decent folk there will try to do the right thing: I almost wish I was still a member so I could campaign for Joanna! I’m pretty sure the woke Stasi are well entrenched however: the convener used to proudly sport a “There Is No Debate” banner on his twitter banner.

    I’ll certainly vote for Joanna if she’s the constituency candidate in 2021, but if it’s Robertson…..? Hell no.

  145. Republicofscotland says:

    Fireproofjim@ 4.57pm.

    I recall reading if memory serves me,that it also had the largest cannon in the world aboard Mons Meg for a period of time, it remained a record until the building of the Japanese warship the Yamoto. Which took the largest gun at sea record.

  146. Effijy says:

    Spain has suffered 2 Covid Deaths today and England 119.

    Boris nominates the Spanish Government as having lost
    Control of the Virus?

  147. kapelmeister says:

    Andy Ellis @4:55

    Agree with your post Andy, with the exception of how long a new indy party might take to get going. I’m not so sure. There are huge numbers of Yes Scots ready to ditch the Sturgeon/Wishart approach.

    Sometimes major political change can come very quickly. Let’s not forget that in France, Macron’s party won a majority in the national assembly just a year after being set up.

  148. Republicofscotland says:

    The Ermine Vermin and chief of Better Together Allistair Darling is to stand down from the unelected undemocratic gravy train commonly known as the House of Lords.

    It looks like Colonel Ruthless Davison will join the Ermine Vermin club.

  149. Colin Alexander says:

    I will accept nothing less than a parliament exercising and representing the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

    So, I won’t be voting for any Scottish politician who wants to feed from the British Imperial trough at Holyrood.

    I won’t be voting for any Scottish politician who plays the Imperial game by pretending Holyrood is Scotland’s parliament.

    I would vote for those who would dissolve the Union by exercising Scottish sovereignty. But, so far, I haven’t found any:

    British pay rates, pensions and holiday entitlement for British politicians are simply too good for that.

  150. liz says:

    @Andy Ellis you could rejoin just so you can vote for her.
    Every vote would count.

  151. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Breeks 5:58pm

    Pardon me for asking a question. However, your answer was …. fanciful. You attribute powers to the “SNP” it does not possess and then castigate them for not using them. Ermmm …. The whole point of independence is to acquire those powers.

    @Andy Ellis

    I said if the Pop-Up is polling well we should vote for it. That is what you want. I put in the caveat that IF it is not polling well and IF it threatens an Indy majority we should not. For some reason the caveat is just too much for you and it generates abuse.

    Similarly with your scenario for getting independence. We both agree an Indy majority in 2021 is essential for independence to happen. You see that was enough to declare independence. I add the caveat of a (non Westminster sanctioned) confirmatory referendum and you blow up.

    There are people on this site who need to look up the definition of debate. Debate is when those with differing views argue the toss over the relative strengths and weaknesses of each other’s arguments. On this site it seems to be “agree with me or shut up”.

  152. CameronB Brodie says:

    Brexit is a clear case of “constitutional violence”, which only recourse to the law will resolve, not anemic political sophism.

    Constitutional Violence
    Legitimacy, Democracy and Human Rights

  153. Andy Ellis says:


    From your lips to God’s ears I hope?

    It’d be great if it could be done quickly, tho’ I’m not sure Scotland will follow the French example. Parties in France have always been a lot more fluid.

    I guess my point is that if the SNP can’t be “saved from itself” and prevailed upon to come up with and enact “Plan B” before Holyrood 2021 elections (which I see as doubtful given the timescale), we may as well accept that the next available opportunity to do anything constructive would be the Westminster or Holyrood election after Holyrood 2021.

    I’m pretty convinced that if the Sturgeonites remain in control of the SNP, the “Gold Standard” indyref will remain policy, so we’re talking about a real generation after 2014 for indyref2 at the earliest by default.

  154. Sinky says:

    BBC fairly milking care home situation. Did they question the care home owner with soiled bed. Did they ask private care home owners why they can’t retain staff which has got worse since Brexit that we didn’t vote for.

  155. Andy Ellis says:



    I’ll keep this short, because I can’t explain this to you using stubby crayons and a flip chart: maybe that’s your level?

    1) Your caveats are bogus. Voting SNP on the list is pointless. All SNP voters should vote for other pro-indy parties. There is NO WAY it can threaten the SNP majority. Repeating falsehoods over and over again doesn’t make them true, it just makes you sound like a faith based zoomer.

    2) A popular majority for independence is essential in any scenario. Your “confirmatory referendum” plan is pointless if we’ve won a plebiscitary election, not that the SNP have the guts to call one.

    3) Debating you is like playing chess with a pigeon. I don’t expect you to agree with me, but you can’t expect us to take your faith based woo-woo seriously.

  156. Benhope says:

    I once campaigned for Fiona Hyslop in a losing campaign in the Gorgie area of Edinburgh. I am not sure if that is part of the Edinburgh central constituency. She lost that time but has been a minister in the government for a very long time since that election.

    The contest for the nomination for the candidate for the seat is going to be quite revealing. The SNP party machine and Woke and Hate Law supporters versus the general membership. I would imagine most of the Wings readership will be supporting Joanna Cherry if they are still SNP members. For those who gave up their membership unfortunately now they have no vote.Let`s all get behind Joanna and show that the membership still have the power to change the corruption at the top of our party.

  157. CameronB Brodie says:

    British constitutionalism is ambivalent to international law and human rights. So British constitutionalism is not going to help Scotland resist authoritarian English Torydum. If the SNP’s leadership is unaware of this, then they need replacing pronto. Remember, Scotland and England are joined in equal political partnership, under international law. English Torydum, and apparently the SNP, wants to ignore this fact of law.

    Full text.

    Political argument and the legitimacy of international law: A case of distorted modernisation

    The springboard for this paper is the observation that the terminology of international law, and especially the terminology of international humanitarian and human rights law, has assumed a radically enhanced role in public deliberation and political argument.

    The tendency to treat humanitarian and human rights legal norms as a standard against which to measure the legitimacy of acts of state has become increasingly marked. This phenomenon, if correctly observed, raises a number of intriguing sociological issues around the origins, meaning and desirability of this development.

    I shall argue that there are good reasons to support the enlarged scope of international law in public life. These have to do with the need for a higher law to inhibit the otherwise overweening power of states to exercise coercive violence; to protect the rights and welfare of minorities, non-nationals and other vulnerable groups within nation states; to prevent aggressive wars, colonial conquests, occupations and inhuman methods of warfare; to compensate for the deficits of exclusively national forms of governmental decision-making; to generalise norms of democratic legitimacy; and not least to remove the ‘halo effect’ that once endowed heads of state with a sense of their own impunity.1

  158. Robert graham says:

    Why exactly are two well known personalities contesting the Edinburgh seat ?
    This can’t be by accident I believe this a veiled warning to those who would upset or loosen the grip the management have over MPs and MSPs ,
    Look how previous MPs a MSPs were treated when Unionist political opponents voiced their disapproval , they were under the nearest Bus before you could draw breath ,
    I questioned the process when the deputy leadership was being contested I was unable to vote and wondered why ,I wanted to vote for Tommy Sheppard after 3 weeks I got a reply from Tommy more or less saying he lost get over it not exactly the answer I was expecting especially from the loosing candidate ,
    I hope the same thing doesn’t happen this time ,

  159. Dogbiscuit says:

    I didn’t know the contemptible bastard Wishart was an Edwardian Gentlelady. I wonder if he carries a bottle of smelling salts to help him recover from the uncouth language in Westminster.

  160. Dan says:

    liz says: at 6:00 pm

    O/T the campaign to get Angus R selected into Edin Central continues apace.

    Whit? Campaigning? During a pandemic? Surely not…

    Hmm, so I think I’ve got this now… During a pandemic it’s cool to campaign to get individuals’ arses on the 1st class seats of the gravy train, but it’s not ok to campaign to save a country and the majority of its citizens in the cheap seats from an impending train wreck.

    Ever feel like a #SecondClassCitizen when other countries continue to campaign and hold elections but we cannae coz reasons…

    Is this a #Pandemic or a #Scamdemic ?

  161. Dogbiscuit says:

    Given the current restrictions on political assembly I struggle to see how a new party can organise and canvas in time for next years election. One of the happy -for Sturgeon Wishart- consequences of political ‘lockdown’ We are no longer a free society free to congregate with being accused of trying to kill someone’s granny.
    For signs of the general public starting to wake up people should check out Anna Brees s YouTube channel .She is one journalist doing a sterling job.

  162. Dogbiscuit says:

    Angus Robertson if you or your acolytes are reading this fuck off you fat bastard.

  163. Doug says:

    Many in the SNP consider the constitutional question as some kind of quaint university debate where, after all the talking, they all swan off to the bar for friendly drinky-poos. To them it’s just a game.

    It is in fact political war. The SNP’s political cowards must be called out as such.

  164. Joe says:

    @Mike Cassidy

    I was calling SNP bought and paid for corporate whores for 2 – 3 years. While you people were calling people who said such things ‘right wing yoon trolls’.

    Just last thread i said that the ‘equity doctrine’ is the most useful tool for corporate powers to over-ride a countries systems. Which you all fell for. Completely.

    So forgive me if im flabbergasted that now, when what I have actually been saying is starting to become apparent that the SNP are ‘right wing.’

    Whatever they are or arent – it was the left wing who empowered them with votes (you), and still do. While the people you called ‘yoon trolls’ tried to tell you to be careful and maybe develop a sense of self respect and stop being shafted by having your votes taken for granted.

    Oh yes – left wing governments collude with international corporations all the time – the wonderful progressive Irish and Swedish governments for instance.

    Whats the defining elements of ‘right wing’ thinking?: personal responsibility, small government and individual liberty. Exactly the fucking opposite of what you lot are bringing down on Scotland.

    But im wasting key strokes.

    I remember a while ago trying to explain my concerns about a tax rise in an independent Scotland under current conditions and aspirations. Again – dismissal and ridicule with a wee write-up from the Rev himself called something like ‘How to answer Scottish Torys about taxes in an independent Scotland’.

    The write up basically laid out how rich Norway is because of oil revenue (true) and that ‘Scottish Torys’ (im not a fucking Tory) can relax because an independent Scotland would be so rich because of oil revenues that we could do without tax.

    Funnily enough if you look up Norway on the interwebs you find that Norway has a higher tax rate pretty much across the board (except for wealthier people), higher VAT, higher living costs and not that much higher wages. Funny that. Those Norwegians must simply love having high taxes.

    So yes…its amazing.

    Im going to say now – I dont think Scotland will ever be independent, even though id like it to be. The only reason im engaged is because I dont want my freedoms and prosperity sacrificed on your altar of deluded, fake Scottish Independence without saying something about it.

    A glance towards the yoons and a glance towards the Scottish Indy movement leaves a clear thinking person with the awful realisation that Johann Lamont was absolutely fucking right.

  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you still believe post-modern critical social theory is a Jewish plot to enslave humanity?

  166. Dogbiscuit says:

    Bungle Puny your trolling on behalf of Nicola Sturgeon is a sick joke .That leader of yours clearly has no interest in Independence and neither has Wishart.
    Those two Unionist arse lickers are taking us for a ride.
    People should vote with their conscience especially in this age of corporate state fascism.
    Use the vote while you still have it although voting for idiots who are daft enough to hand Johnson the powers of a dictator probably won’t help us.
    The irony of his current position won’t be lost on a Romanist like Johnson.

  167. Jonathan Marshall says:

    Breeks understand and agree with where you are coming from and agree with your Post and disappointment that our European citizenship was not defended more… that said I am not sure that I would agree to rejoin the EU given their lack of political support for Scotland in the face of England’s Britex. Stu your website is provoking an amazing amount of discussion but can we all agree what ever our differences and disagreements about whatever course we are to follow we need to stay together… Those who write from an SNP softly softly point of view need to understand the dismay and dread of those who want a quicker option and want to apply more pressure on Our overlords… By the same token those that advocate a different course of action need to take on board the the fears and worries of those who have fought so long to see the lead we have today… How do we square the circle?

  168. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t think Joe is speaking to me. That’s a shame. 😉


  169. Dogbiscuit says:

    CBB you answered a well articulated post with a stupid insult. Your kind of remark presents a threat to the free expression of political ideas. Who is it on the International stage that we are not allowed to criticise? You’re all frightened to say it aren’t you.?
    It is of course the state of Israel. It is not good for British politicians to be run from the Knesset.

  170. Dogbiscuit says:

    In servitude to another countries worldview. Dias that sound familiar CBB?

  171. Dogbiscuit says:

    We all dance around Israel like Orthodox Jews.

  172. Dogbiscuit says:

    Really bad dancers.

  173. Willie says:

    As we blog, comment, fume praise or discredit the comfortable coterie currently running the SNP we should maybe all consider the words of a bastardised old song …..” The working class can kiss my arse I’ve got the foreman’s job at last.”

    So true of so many of today’s SNP leadership, bought and sold by……….you’ll remember the other words!!

  174. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Not really Cameron. It is more of a method how to undermine democratic systems. Its work can be seen in Scotland at this moment. Yes, most of the people who founded it were Jewish as far as I am aware.

  175. Robert graham says:

    A interesting discussion on Indy live just now on U/tube

  176. CameronB Brodie says:

    Joe is a man of the right, who is hostile to the EU and multicultural tolerance. The comment might have been written well, but it was simply an attack against the Scottish government. Right-wing populism seeks to undermine democracy, and Joe has a habit of punting right-wing populism.

  177. CameronB Brodie says:

    Are you for real, as your political awareness appears to be more than a little suspect?

  178. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Dan 7.07: just so. Poland managed to carry out a presidential election earlier this month and Merkel manages to multi-task through Covid while running a country of 83,000,000.

  179. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    No Cameron. I think we should live under a constitutional republic of set rights and responsibilities of the individual with each naturalised person having an equal vote regardless of race or gender.

    The state should be involved as little as is possible – only for the basic of security, justice, elections etc.

  180. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not just dumping on Joe, his views are simply not compatible with liberal democracy. He has also parroted Nazi propaganda, though he appears to be shying away from such openness now.

    Full text.

    Contemporary Political Theory volume 18, pages 284–289 (2019)
    Critical theory in critical times: Transforming the global political and economic order

  181. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’re simply attempting to re-invent yourself. Are you still hostile to the EU and multiculturalism?

  182. Joe says:

    @Cameron B Brodie

    The National Socialists created the most powerful economy in the world while all other powerhouse countries were still in the pit due to the depression.

    Thats because they dumped the international bankers debt-money and used their own money free of debt. They also provided interest free loans to all German families so that they might buy a house – with parts of the loan cancelled with every child born until it was written off after having 4 children.

    Whatever happened after or whatever else they intended – to pretend that this isnt something quite interesting and worth considering is totally stupid.

    You could say German national socialism was, economically, the most successful socialism ever enacted.

    If thats parroting Nazi ‘propoganda’ then so be it. I agree with the Bolsheviks getting rid of the Russian artistocracy but im hardly a Bolshevik sympethiser.

  183. Joe says:

    @Cameron B Brodie

    I have blood relatives from India. My wife is slightly darker skinned than me (mediterranean type). My wifes part of the family is bigger than my own and with a distinct culture.

    So I am not against different cultures or races. What I am against is the kicking away the legs of the western working class in the name of diversity and equity in order to fill cheap jobs and provide more mortgage applications for a banking industry that’s in a demogarphically induced death spiral and calling anyone who questions it a bigot.

    I am anti-EU but not anti-europe. I love Europe and European people. Thats why im anti-EU

  184. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis 6:45pm

    Had to laugh at your post 🙂 Do you often lose to pigeons 😉

    Congratulations on having devised the first absolutely cast iron, nothing can go wrong, fool proof plan in human history. No Plan Bs needed here. They’re bogus.

    I’m sure the challenge …. oops! Did I say “challenge” …. I meant racing certainty of convincing hundreds of thousands of ordinary voters wholly unaware of “The plan” of its efficacy and getting them as invested in it as you are, won’t be a problem.

    It is not me who is blinkered here. I have conceded the attractiveness of “The plan”. I have conceded IF you get enough people going for it, it is something we should do. On your scenario on achieving independence, I have agreed with you on the necessity of an Indy majority in 2021. Never-the-less, you feel the need to abuse and pretend you are the one being reasonable. It’s a case of “if I don’t agree with every punctuation mark in your gospel I’m an idiot”.

    Fine. If that’s what it takes to make you feel good, bash on. I hope your happy in your infallible cult.

  185. CameronB Brodie says:

    Joe appears to want us to believe the Nazis were socialists. So are there still readers who consider Joe to be a reasonable individual?

  186. Liz g says:

    I totally agree with you about any new party having a clear and unambiguous policy to entrench our Sovereignty clearly in law,in the way you describe, even while the Treaty remains a live document.
    And to campaign to end the reservation of “The Union” to only Westminister!
    I’m certainly going to be proposing it to the ISP myself…
    If you write out your thoughts on what you’d like to see and DM me @ Liz g 1707 I’ll certainly pass it on to my friend as a FAO for Collette Walker. 🙂

  187. Joe says:

    @Cameron B Brodie

    Im being nice to you and letting you interrogate me while I drink a cup of tea. I dont really care what you believe

    Anything else?

  188. Andy Ellis says:

    Joe is merely the latest in a long line of a-historical know nothings who have swallowed the alt-right apologia of national socialism whole, while trying to claim they’re just interested in the “thought experiment”. Sheesh.

    Nazi Germany was an economic basket case led by a caste of robber barons and charlatans. It’s autarchic polices only worked when it could asset strip the countries it invaded. (see also Napoleon’s empire).

    To say Joe’s understanding is superficial would be to credit it with too much depth.

  189. Famous15 says:

    There is one thing I agree with Wishart about and that is thinking you can win hearts and minds and curse and swear your way to independence.

    Scotland is small “c” conservative and many are offended by foul language. I bitterly remember in 2014 persuading friends to contribute to an otherwise excellent video promoting independence and their anger and disgust at finding on first viewing that Robin McAlpine in the intro used the word “fucking”. I am probably very close to McAlpine on the political spectrum and so are my friends but that one word really angered and dismayed them.

    Small matter you may think but think again!

  190. CameronB Brodie says:

    No, I think you’ve successfully managed to out yourself as a right-wing zoomer.

  191. Joe says:

    @Andy Ellis

    Im sorry facts offend you. But what im saying are facts.

    That doesn’t condone tyranny or persecution.

    You might notice I advocate limited government and personal responsibility so im hardly on board with National Socialism.

    But if the devil comes out of a fiery hole in the ground and says ‘Maybe its a good idea if you drop the debt based money system’. Does it make it a bad idea just because the devil said it?

    As for alt-right: i have just explained. My family is a mixture of ethnicities. So spare me the hysterics.

  192. Joe says:

    @Cameron B Brodie

    You know, where my wife is from, the children have nursery rhymes about how Hitler tried to save them from Bolshevism.

    There’s are more than one point of view in the world.

    As for me, I have my doubts, im against autocracy as ive already said. Im quite happy with liberty and the ability to get rid of the arseholes who write the laws. While it lasts.

  193. CameronB Brodie says:

    Facts my arse. Joe appears to want to ignore the massive contribution slave labour made to the German economy, and the exploitation of other nation’s resources.

  194. Andy Ellis says:


    Yeah….sweary words…that’ll definitely be what denies us indy.

    Sometimes I wonder if the Scots are actually smart enough to be independent?

    Head. Desk.

  195. CameronB Brodie says:

    Your attempt to re-write history should alarm all reasonable individuals. The Nazis had no redeeming qualities. Please stop polluting btl with you alt-right pish.

    Theories of human rights in relation to understandings of human rights education: the relevance to diversity

  196. Joe says:

    @Cameron B Brodie

    Well a few slaves does make things easier.

    As the bankers said in the 19th century (paraphrasing) ‘Why keep slaves that you need to feed, house and care for? Put people in debt and they have to feed, house and care for themselves.’

  197. CameronB Brodie says:

    That last one was for Joe, though I don’t think there is anyone else with the brass-neck to try and justify the Nazis.

  198. Joe says:

    Of course im giving what is illegal now (thanks to right wingers apparently) an honest and nuanced opinion.

    Cheers fellow debt slaves. Ill end now lest I end up in a Scottish prison.

  199. weechid says:

    Bob Mack says:
    28 July, 2020 at 1:43 pm


    I’ve just signed up to the vaccine trial in Scotland.

    Volunteers reqd.”

    Do you have a link Bob? I’d be happy to volunteer.

  200. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’re simply full of shit Joe, and your politics suggest a dangerous outlook.

    The International Journal of Human Rights Volume 21, 2017 – Issue 3: A realistic utopia? Critical analyses of the Human Rights State in theory and deployment

    A realistic utopia? Critical analyses of The Human Rights State in theory and deployment: Guest editors’ introduction

  201. Fireproofjim says:

    This thread is getting absolutely nowhere.
    Nazis! Slaves! The posters are self indulgent disrupters.

  202. Beaker says:

    @Andy Ellis says:
    28 July, 2020 at 8:26 pm
    “Nazi Germany was an economic basket case led by a caste of robber barons and charlatans. It’s autarchic polices only worked when it could asset strip the countries it invaded. (see also Napoleon’s empire).”

    I suggest Joe studies the actions of Schacht, who stabilised Germany’s economy in the 1930s. Yes, things got better for a while but it was only a short term measure. But given the emphasis on military spending, it was doomed to send Germany into bankruptcy. After Schacht resigned, Goering was in the driving seat and everything went to hell, and the asset stripping began.

  203. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’re surely not objecting to me clarifying Joe’s political views?

  204. CameronB Brodie says:

    I appreciate the main aim of this site is to support Scottish independence, but democracy is being crushed in Brexitania. So I suggest we need to defend democracy in order to defend Scotland from abusive British constitutionalism.


    A liberal society, one founded upon individual freedom and democratic principles, is hard to build and harder to preserve. Democratic institutions are fragile, and what John Rawls calls “the strains of commitment” are permanent features of even the most enlightened civil societies.1

    This is why every once in a while the world of ideas is shaken by a frontal revolt against freedom and reason: the stress of civilization tempts too many a thinker, too many a politician, into utopian or authoritarian proposals. While these cyclical revolts have come in many shapes (some from the right, some from the left) they share this common trait: the twin rejection of rationality and freedom.

    Challenges to the Enlightenment are always, almost by definition, anti-rationalist and authoritarian.2 The rejection of the open society has not been confined, alas, to the realm of ideas: every single time any such theory has been implemented it has resulted in a horrifying disaster.

    Millions of people have perished or languished in concentration and reeducation camps, purges, torture chambers, and wars, not to mention the setbacks suffered
    under these regimes by the industries, the arts, and all other high forms of human endeavor.

  205. Joe says:

    @Cameron B Brodie


    In all honesty since what I say my politics are and get continually ignored, while you search for something heinous, id actually wind you all up by pretending to be something truly horrible and watch all the bed-wetters foaming at the mouth in indignation.

    The one thing that stops me from having that fun is that the legal system might take me seriously and put me away.

    Look in the mirror.

    Thats the country the SNP created with your votes.

    Thats the party you still want to vote for.

    Now tell me who the fucking Nazi is.

  206. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’ve just tried to justify the Nazis Joe, so who are you trying to kid that you support liberal democracy?

  207. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    Regional vote…
    I vote in Dundee West so, at the next Holyrood election, I’ll vote for Joe Fitzpatrick. I’ve voted SNP constituency and region at every Holyrood election. That’s because I have two votes; one for the constituency and one for the region.

    However, on looking into the overall results, at the next Holyrood election (whenever), I’ll vote for Joe in the constituency vote, and if there is ONE Pro-Indy party/alliance standing for the region, they’ll get my vote.


    In 2016, the SNP won 9 out of 10 constituency seats and NO regional seats. The Tories took Aberdeenshire West from the SNP. I investigated what would have happened in 2016, if a Pro-Indy party had been standing for the region.

    Worked out that if 25% of the SNP regional vote had gone to Pro-Indy, they would have gained one MSP.

    Furthermore, if 40% of the SNP regional vote had gone to Pro-Indy, that would have gained two MSPs. See the wurkie-out at this link:-

    As long as the SNP rides high in the polling for constituency seats, it makes no sense to vote SNP in the regional vote, in my region. Of course, the SNP’s popularity could wane between now and the next Holyrood election so we really have to keep an eye on what is happening popularity-wise.

    I can’t understand why Marmalade is throwing his hat into the Edinburgh Central ring, when Aberdeenshire West is sitting there, ripe for reclaiming. After all, he previously represented a nearby constituency.

    Could it be that there is “politics” going on within the SNP? Woke versus INDEPENDENCE?

    Yooz may suggest that but I couldn’t possibly comment.

  208. Tannadice Boy says:

    This thread maybe going nowhere but that doesn’t detract from the original post. It is of concern to me that the openness and transparency required to prove a conspiracy or not is being actively suppressed. I get the reason for anonymity but I hope the Holyrood Inquiry is not stymied by officialdom and the judiciary. Because whatever Scotland you want to live in it has to be fair.

  209. Bob Mack says:


    Covid section Scottish Government website. Simple enough application.

  210. dakk says:

    “Because whatever Scotland you want to live in it has to be fair.”

    Freedom first would be a start.

  211. Tannadice Boy says:

    Freedom to incarcerated an innocent man on baseless sex crimes?. That’s your Scotland not mine.

  212. Tannadice Boy says:

    17/10 Dundee United vs Aberdeen. I am only starting to enjoy our return to the SPL today after the legal sheginans. Tenner Stu?.

  213. Jonathan Marshall says:

    Brian doon the toon same where I live couldn’t agree more with your post… Will keep an eye on how SNP are doing… But my 2nd vote has been wasted so far…. And for all those politicians that are comfy and talk about gaming the system and cheating…. Sort it’s my vote and if you remember why we have this system in the first place it deliberately put in place to thwart my ambitions hopes and dreams…. So I will vote accordingly. Mom Alex what color of bonnet are you sporting?

  214. Jonathan Marshall says:

    Sodding predictive text on small screens sorry Stu!

  215. James Barr Gardner says:


    How is it Rev Stu that no one seems to be interested in Demographics, I find this very strange as the status quo has now went out the window ?

    The Demographics have shifted considerably, by next summer over 400k people in Scotland will have died since 2014, this is balanced by 400k young folk now eligible to vote.

    Young folk do not buy newspapers, you only have to look at the plummeted circulation figures ! Young folk want to keep their EU Citizenship ! EU Citizens living and working in Scotland want Scotland to remain in the EU.

    Brexit and Covid Westminster shambles has exposed the political divide within the UK. The numbers now stack up, Scotland will be free soon.

    BTW all of the above applies to NI ! Remember the NO majority was 400k in 2014, you don’t need an O-Level Maths to work out how the numbers roll out.

    The only thing in Scotland’s path to Independence is COMPLACENCY !

    Please ensure you and your kin are REGISTERED on the Voters Roll and use your Vote, preferably at the Polling Booth NOT by the dodgy postal method !

    Onwards and Upwards, End the Union and Let Scotland Prosper !

    Exact numbers can be extrapolated from Scottish Government stats !

    Nicola the Mandate must be called in NOW !

  216. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Tannadice Boy 10:20 pm

    “This thread maybe going nowhere but that doesn’t detract from the original post. It is of concern to me that the openness and transparency required to prove a conspiracy or not is being actively suppressed”.

    The original post is about List parties. What has that got to with your post?

  217. OldPete says:

    BBC doing a number on the SNP, blaming them rather than the dodgy private run care homes. Scottish government apparently is crap, going by the BBC. Independent government will be crap that is the propaganda message. But hey sure will suite many here that the SNP government is getting slaughtered by the BBC, useful allies against the SNP ? But then again maybe not.

  218. Tannadice Boy says:

    Why do we need to create a new list party? (the thread comment was referring to the latter posts about Nazis). If everything was hunky dory we would not need a new list party. Ergo the conspiracy is the large elephant in the room. And the discontent in general about the policies and direction of the SNP. Hope that is clear.

  219. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Tannadice Boy 11:28pm

    Good save. Hamish would be proud of you 🙂

  220. Tannadice Boy says:

    Great goalkeeper. So looking forward to the new season.

  221. Me Bungo Pony says:

    Me too, though I don’t know how I’m going to watch it. I don’t think BT has the Scottish Premier League any more 🙁

  222. Ian Brotherhood says:

    New Phantom Power ad supporting this place and @FOWingsScotland:

  223. twathater says:

    ROS thank you for that link to Jim Fairlie Jnr’s post in the National, I went on and read the article then reread it when you posted the whole article

    First I would like to THANK Breeks the supposed moron , Lorna Campbell and a few others for attempting to edumacate posters and independence supporters for eons that we DO have as SOVEREIGN SCOTS the ability to dissolve this union

    What REALLY concerns me is WHY have NS and the SNP hierarchy NOT pursued this avenue ,NS has said that she doesn’t rule out a legal challenge, BUT there is NO indication that she IS considering that, also WHY is Joanna Cherry who is a QC and has previously bested the bozo circus through the Scottish courts not sought to bring this to a head
    If as J Fairlie Jnr says the acts of union gives WM the advantage BUT the Treaty of Union gives US the advantage WHY O WHY are we NOT using OUR ammunition through the Scottish Court of Session and thereafter the ICJ and UN to DISSOLVE the union , there is enough evidence to illustrate that england acting as WM has breached the Treaty on numerous occasions

  224. MaggieC says:

    This from the herald , Alex Salmond inquiry denied evidence by Scottish Government delay .

  225. Graeme says:

    Reading James Kellys blog it seems he’s not so much against another indy party providing it’s led by Alex Salmond, It’s made me think what a political phenomenon Alex Salmond is, only 6 years ago he pinned his career on a referendum and lost, then found himself in the political wilderness when he lost his parliamentary seat shortly afterwards, set up a successful TV show, then faced heinous sexual allegations that few believed he would ever recover from no matter the verdict.

    He’s had the full might of the British establishment railed against him on almost a daily basis and they just can’t put this man down. Alex Salmond is a fu***ng legend, he is still the man the British state fear most and he is still in my opinion our best hope for independence

  226. Willie says:

    And so the establishment, the rotten and corrupt establishment still acts with impunity, and is now failing to provide evidence due to the Parliamentary enquiry into the Salmond debacle.

    In missing the production of paper required by the end of July Leslie Evans by at least a month Leslie Evans explains that there is a lot of work in collating the documents, there is a virus about and that maybe the Scottish Government should instead deliver papers.

    So two fingers up to the Parliamentary committee. They can effectively to use the phrase, go and fuck themselves. Certainly makes you understand what 1930s Germany must have felt like as all vestiges of a functioning democracy were swept away.

  227. schrodingers cat says:

    an educated view from england. as anti scottish sentiment grows in england and jock bashing english nationalist tweets flood social media, is this the last whimper of british nationalists?

    this mornings new statesman

    Helen Thompson is professor of political economy at Cambridge University

    For England, Scotland and Wales the Union must be made to work. The alternative is chaos

    Months upon end in which the devolved executives have exercised powers in health and education has convinced ever more people that the Union should end.

    n actual break-up of the British part of the UK Union is no more likely than it was in the referendum of September 2014, when the Scottish government offered voters an illusion of independence. Yet the Covid-19 crisis has sufficiently aggravated all the existing centrifugal pressures within the Union that this year could mark a significant step towards partial dissolution of the Anglo-Scottish alliance.

    Months upon end in which the Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish executives have exercised devolved powers in health and education, as Westminster ministers are forced to act as England’s government while still retaining UK-wide authority in other contested areas, has convinced ever more people that the Union should end. Opinion polls show support for Scottish independence at record levels, even though within the SNP bitter divisions between the Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond factions have deepened, and a breakaway independence party has become a genuine possibility. In Wales, this month the Senedd held its first ever debate on independence.

    During this emergency, the Conservative government has found it harder to disguise its increasingly visceral dislike of the devolution settlement. This is partly circumstantial since the existing inter-governmental committees, conceived at the time of Scottish and Welsh devolution, have unsurprisingly proved inadequate for coordinated emergency decision-making. But ministers also palpably resent the reality that it is ­easier for politicians in power in Edinburgh and Cardiff to make political capital out of the Union’s troubles than it is for those in London.

    In some circumstances, this might not matter as there is nothing the Conservatives can dare do legislatively to end devolution. But with powers coming back from the EU, not least on state aid, the Westminster government has the opportunity to recast the balance between reserved and devolved powers, and may well choose to take this opportunity through primary legislation.

    It did not require the Covid-19 crisis to reveal that the constitutional arrangements for the Union have become chaotic, not least because they leave a void around English governance. Present electoral politics also render these arrangements practically self-destructive: only hubris can account for Tony Blair’s assumption that New Labour’s success was such that the party would be in power in perpetuity in London, Edinburgh and Cardiff. Now, the Union is reaping the consequences of his conceited folly. The competition between the political parties actively destabilises the Union. A Conservative government at Westminster imperils Scottish consent. A minority Labour government propped up in the House of Commons with SNP votes would jeopardise English consent. A Labour majority government is hard to envisage without some resolution to the Scottish Question that Labour’s very weakness perpetuates.

    The Union cannot be stabilised without the SNP returning to minority party status in Scotland, which is unlikely to happen in next year’s Holyrood election, and without a politics that generates a regular turnover in power between the two principal Westminster parties. Accordingly, the best contribution the Conservatives could make to preserving the Anglo-Scottish union would be to lose the next general election.

    There is a viable political path out of the Union for Northern Ireland via Irish unification, albeit it would be enormously disruptive and carry a serious risk of violence. The question is whether a majority of people in Northern Ireland and Ireland wish to take it. But for Britain, and not just for Scotland and Wales but England, too, it is far from clear that independence is a sustainable answer to the Hobbesian problem of political authority on this island.

    Political union was not the only possible historical answer to this question. But as the one that emerged, it cannot be readily undone in the economic and geopolitical world of the 21st century. Indeed, Scottish independence, at least as campaigned for by the Scottish government in 2014, was not in vital respects a project to undo that political union, either as a matter of identity or of external and internal solidarity, since it included ongoing currency and monarchical union, with all the historical symbolism of Britishness embedded in the monarchy.

    The SNP’s position has since moved to a bolder independence model, but still favours a shared head of state and an effective security confederation. Its new desire for an independent currency is, crucially, more wishful longing than hard-headed strategy. No one looking honestly at the eurozone over recent years could deny that a shared currency requiring common fiscal rules, and where a nation state’s politicians have no influence over the central bank’s lender-of-last-resort capacity, raises profound difficulties around sovereignty and democracy. Nominal Scottish independence with ongoing monetary union would soon give rise to structural political pressure to re-create the Union. If there was a different path, it was the one not taken years ago when first a Conservative and then a Labour government decided the UK would not be joining the euro.

    For England, Scotland, and Wales, the Union in some form must be made to work. That requires facing directly the constitutional questions, which are well beyond the point where muddling through will suffice. It also means finding, and then celebrating, the historical story about how from a Union constructed in ad hoc fashion over five centuries, from motives we might well struggle to understand, came a shared political experience of learning to live peacefully with appreciable political, cultural, religious and linguistic differences.

  228. Willie says:

    Fantastic news that Craig Murray has yesterday written to IAN McCann the SNP’s compliance manager to put himself forward for candidate vetting process. With an election on the near horizon but with the vetting process currently suspended, Mr Murray has asked for guidance on how to proceed when the party reopens the process.

    In making the request Mr Murray notes that whilst there is talk of list parties he considers the SNP to be the essential vehicle for delivering independence – but that it just needs a bit of a push.
    Saying that is most certainly something that will resonate with many many SNP members and beyond.

    A strong SNP committed to independence Is as Mr Murray says is essential. And so having made this application, I trust the party and Ian McCann will respond, and be seen to respond, with all openness and fairness

  229. Breeks says:

    MaggieC says:
    29 July, 2020 at 5:58 am
    This from the herald , Alex Salmond inquiry denied evidence by Scottish Government delay .

    Disgraceful. Two years to prepare these documents, and by ‘prepare’ I mean redact. Then Leslie Evan’s has the brass neck to blame COVID.

    Bearing in mind she has already cost the Scottish Goverment £500,000 for mishandling the Salmond Inquiry, why, in God’s name, is this person put in charge of compiling and submitting relevant evidence to the Inquiry? Why wasn’t she suspended from her duties and a full independent audit of the circumstances conducted by a neutral investigation team?

    What burglar would be allowed to be the guardian of the evidence which might convict him?

  230. Colin Alexander says:

    Part 1: Re: Legal challenges to the Union.

    There’s a chicken and egg conundrum.

    As you know, there was the separate political kingdoms of Scot and Eng. There was already the United Kingdom royally since 1603.

    The legal stuff: the UK is what’s called a dualist state. It means when the UK signs a Treaty, it’s not bound by it. Only when parliament enacts the treaty in an act of parliament does it become legally binding.

    So, legally, the UK looks at the Treaty of Union as an agreement of principles, not a legally binding agreement.

    The UK regards the domestic Acts as the binding bit. But the UK also follows the principle that it can change any domestic legislation it wants to, the Acts. So, none of the Acts are binding on the UK permanently, as the UK can change them at will, any time it wants to.

  231. susan says:

    OT but I’m going to say something unpopular here: I’m against multiculturalism. I’m pro a multiracial society but against the deification of multiculturalism. There are unattractive aspects of our own culture that we are being driven to eliminate, why do we need to welcome unattractive aspects of other cultures?

  232. Colin Alexander says:

    Part 2: Re: Legal challenges to the Union.

    So, you go to court waving the Treaty of Union and say: the UK breached this Treaty. Guaranteed the UK will argue: the UK is not bound by Treaties, we are a dualist state. A Scots Law court would agree.

    However, here’s the chicken and egg bit:

    There wasn’t any UK politically when the Treaty was agreed. It was agreed between the separate political states of Scotland and England.

    According to at least one law professor, the Treaty was never “incorporated” into Scots Law by the Parliament of Scotland. Instead it was just quoted in the Act.

    Presumably, pre-Union Scotland could give effect to Treaties without incorporation of the Treaty into law ( as incorporation into law is required in a dualist state). It follows, if the Treaty in Scotland did require incorporation to give it legal effect and the professor was right that the Treaty wasn’t incorporated, then the Union was never legally made.

  233. Ottomanboi says:

    Schrödingers cat
    “For England, Scotland, and Wales, the Union in some form must be made to work. That requires facing directly the constitutional questions, which are well beyond the point where muddling through will suffice. It also means finding, and then celebrating, the historical story about how from a Union constructed in ad hoc fashion over five centuries, from motives we might well struggle to understand, came a shared political experience of learning to live peacefully with appreciable political, cultural, religious and linguistic differences”.

    Fine words from the prof. but they have been recited so often in the history of the British imperium, the Brits so loving federations, Nigeria, Rhodesia & Nyasaland, South Africa, Iraq, Ireland, India indeed of the British empire itself, diversity in unity. Absolute mealy mouthed anglo-saxon twaddle just lines drawn on maps, lines in the sand, Sykes-Picot types playing divinities. Also hypocritical since the anglos have turned their backs on the diversity in unity construct, the EU.
    This is all about saving England’s exposed rear. 300+ years and not got it right? Lets sit down and chat about ‘Union’….why? Who exactly needs whom? Does tartan look good in the anglospheric wallpaper?
    Should some in the SNP be attracted by these notions they will be leading Scotland into destabilizing factionalism, maybe the intention, or into the historical footnotes few bother visiting.
    Btw there wasn’t much ad hoc (an Oxbridge view?) about the 1707 Union, definitely a ‘by design’ project however ham fisted from the practical point of view. Back to the English and their weakness for federating.

  234. Ottomanboi says:

    Addendum to 09:13
    Back to the English and their weakness for federating when things are actually falling apart.

  235. Colin Alexander says:

    Part 3.

    One of the arguments made is that the Treaty has been breached in parts of the Treaty in areas where the Treaty is written as unalterable terms so, as the Treaty has been seriously breached it can be resiled or ripped up.

    The argument being that the UK state / UK Parliament only has authority because of that Treaty. No Treaty, no UK Parliament ruling over Scotland.

  236. Colin Alexander says:

    Part 4.

    Similarly, but a simpler argument is that the UK is based on a voluntary political union of two sovereign states created via the Treaty.

    The Kingdom of England’s sovereignty endures in the English Crown. The Kingdom of Scotland’s sovereignty continues in the people of Scotland.

    It’s not the organs of the Scottish state or the Parliament of Scotland that were sovereign: so when they went it did not affect the sovereignty of the people.

    As it is the people themselves that are sovereign, even if no separate Scottish parliament or organs of a Scottish state exists, that sovereignty remains as a right of the people themselves:

    We the people of Scotland are the continuing sovereign power of Scotland.

    So, whether the Treaty is breached or not, we the sovereign people of Scotland can withdraw from the Treaty any time we want to, by exercising our sovereign power.

    UK parliament / UK state only has authority for as long as we give it authority. We can legally take away authority from UK Parliament any time we want to, as we are ultimately sovereign.

    The argument being, the Union is legally an international agreement, not domestic UK Law, so even if the UK does not legally recognise this legal position, international law does.

    Separately, international law recognises the right of self determination ( even for peoples who are not sovereign).

  237. jfngw says:

    @schrodingers cat 7:42

    That was a long and round about way of saying Scotland is too wee and too poor to be independent. Then add that England should be working to undermine devolution.

    All those words to convey the same message as always. If you dress it up in meandering verbose text I presume you can claim it’s academia and not just a colonialist mindset.

  238. Colin Alexander says:

    Part 5:

    As for the courts:

    the comments I’ve read from the Scots cases now approx. 70 years ago, is that judges have tended to comment that the Union is a political matter, not a legal one.

    But, as we’ve seen, since then there has been a number of legal cases about political matters.

    One is currently ongoing: the Forward As One case about an indyref.

    There may be more to follow.

  239. Republicofscotland says:

    “but the files relating to the complaints probe have been delayed, despite the material being two years old and the committee setting out its general intentions at the beginning of 2019.”


    I found this section to be rather interesting, LE is definitely trying to hide her machinations around this, though I doubt she’s alone in doing so. On how they conspired against Salmond.

  240. Stuart MacKay says:

    @schrodingers, jfngw

    Thanks for posting. It’s always useful to see what other people are thinking and how disconnected from reality they are. I agree with jfngw. it’s just another rant of how it’s not fair that England is not in charge.

    I was reading about the £50 bike repair voucher in Cycling Weekly. Anyways there’s the line:

    The scheme is only available in England.

    The academics, intellectuals and colonialists can lament the the fact that England’s grip on Scotland is weakening but every time the “only available in England” gets typed another nail gets hammered into the Union’s coffin.

  241. Terence Callachan says:

    I don’t think you can apply the law as it is today , to things that were decided in 1707 unless you can reasonably show that you are doing so by taking into consideration and interpreting decisions made in 1707 in the way they were meant to be taken in 1707.
    Life was very different in 1707.
    It’s not always easy to figure out what was intended , words were used differently sometimes and had different meanings to what they do in today’s world.

  242. Tinto Chiel says:

    Stumac on the Hate Crime Bill: “Though the Rev would have a link to this already.”

    Yep, particularly since a cynic would draw the conclusion he is one of the main reasons it has been formulated.

    The creepy and creeping authoritarianism of this government is becoming more and more worrying. It had its wings clipped over its “Covid proposals” of suspension of jury trials, cross examination and automatic right of appeal, while proposing the use of taped testimony.

    I expect the SG to attempt to return to these measures in some rehashed form unless enough people and agencies protest.

    The very term Hate Crime has always had an Orwellian ring to my ears and reminds me of his concept of the Two Minutes Hate.

  243. stonefree says:

    @ 1971Thistle 28 July, 2020 at 12:39 pm

    That’s him , I believe he is a Lawyer?
    He works with another nasty piece of work Leanne something

  244. mike cassidy says:

    Just a thought

    Could the swift extension of Leslie Evan’s contract be explained by the fact

    That this ensured she – rather than her successor – would be in charge of the process of handing the ‘relevant’ info to the inquiry

  245. mike cassidy says:

    Stumac Tinto Chiel

    When even the police don’t want anything to do with your Hate Crime Bill

    Surely that requires a rethink

    We are firmly of the view this proposed legislation would see officers policing speech and would devastate the legitimacy of the police in the eyes of the public. That can never be an acceptable outcome

  246. Republicofscotland says:

    If LE and Sturgeon, and possibly other members of her clique are shown to have conspired, in Sturgeon’s case at least proven to have known about the details earlier than she admitted to, is there a party lever to have them removed, and replaced, and if so which body could enforee it, and more to the point is it likely to be applied, knowing that Sturgeon’s popularity ratings are high just now.

  247. Bruce Hosie says:

    I am so bored with James kelly now I really am and wish he would just stick to polls. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but his ego appears to have overtaken his reason and I just find him to be tiresome now to be honest.

  248. James F. McIntosh says:

    Scottish gov. So much like the Tory one in Westminster now covering up and hiding the truth from the electorate as much as they can. Starting to think the whole world is beyond help. Despare rules!

  249. Effijy says:

    How wonderfully pathetic the Herald is!

    The link above has Evans suggesting that Civil Servants
    Are restricted in what they are allowed to say and therefore
    No use to the Alex Salmond enquiry?

    So is a Civil Servant sees a corrupt government abusing its powers
    against the people, democracy and justice they are not permitted to
    Tell the truth?

    Not acceptable at any time in the world I want to live in.

    Herald again on how out raged that Dick Leonard is that the 1st Minster gives
    Us an update on the virus each day?

    He thinks she is making it political when each day she has shown she is not
    But all the Unionist media questions try to make it so.

    Labour of course demand transparency and updates and clear instructions
    On dealing with the virus but now it’s delivered, they dont?

    Does anyone with a brain listen to Labour or buy the Herald?

  250. stonefree says:

    @ Republicofscotland 29 July, 2020 at 10:46 am
    One is supposed to exist within the rules Robert P I believe said so , BUT Sturgeon and the rest circumvented any potential action once she became leader

  251. David Wardrope says:

    Said it before, and I’ll say it again.
    If Scottish voters aligned to a party that saw to all our ideals and beliefs instead of us conceding ground on some matters in favour of others, there’d be over 4 million parties required in Scotland.

  252. Johnny says:

    A YouGov poll in the wind asking a heap of things. My suspicion is that it’s one commissioned by the Labour Party.

    I didn’t take note of all that was asked but they did ask for sure:

    i) Westminster voting intention;

    ii) Holyrood list and constituency;

    iii) A separate question about the list asking for rating out of 10 on how likely one was to vote Tory, Lab, Lib Dem, SNP or Green;

    iv) independence question but with 6 options, ‘definitely yes’, ‘probably yes’, ‘not sure’, ‘definitely REMAIN in UK’, ‘probably REMAIN in UK’, ‘wouldn’t vote’ (so look out for misrepresentation if this poll sees the light of day);

    v) asking whether thought there should be an indyref in next 5 years (no ‘next 2 years’ query);

    vi) Asking what you liked about the party you support;

    vii) Asking what Labour could do to get you to vote for them;

    viii) Asking whether it was likely or unlikely that you would ever vote for a party with an opposing view to yours on indy;

    ix) Asking whether the Scottish Parliament or both the Scottish Parliament and UK Gov should make the decision regarding an indyref being held;

    x) questions about Holyrood and WM handling of Covid;

    xi) questions about approval/disapproval of a slew of Tory figures, Nicola Sturgeon, Keir Starmer and the Labour Party as a whole.

    There was more but these were the main ones.

  253. mike cassidy says:

    Tinto Chiel

    Activists who seem to understand George Orwell’s “1984” not as a warning but as a manual see free speech — the lifeblood of democracy and human betterment — as a fascist tool of oppression

  254. Bob Mack says:


    That was a great read. What stood out for me at least is the recognition that the Union just now is very susceptible to pressure. I know Covid was mentioned overtly, but there was also mention of the public at large in the rest of the UK(England spdcifically), becoming intolerant towards Scotland.

    These are key issues. We could have created all sorts of pressures to maximise that void, but did very little.

    Just think of the missed opportunity over the last two years.

    As I mentioned long ago,there is more than one way to skin a cat, but there seems to be a lack of appetite to use disruption as a tool.

  255. Fionan says:

    Fireproofjim says:
    28 July, 2020 at 8:51 pm
    This thread is getting absolutely nowhere.
    Nazis! Slaves! The posters are self indulgent disrupters.

    I agree. The BTL threads these days just get disrupted by the trolls and the endless to-and-fro-ing from commenters like CBB who should know better. Do they really think that readers are the slightest bit interested in their infantile slanging matches and attempts at point-scoring? It is getting to the point that finding a sensible and relevant comment among these tit-for-tat self-centred foolish comments is like finding a needle in a haystack.

    This started off as one of the better posts and btl discussions in a long time, and it is a shame that CBB and others just feel they have to keep on arguing back and fore with the trolls, thus maintaining and encouraging the constant disruption. And I won’t even start on these endless citations of opinions that are supposed to ‘educate’ us as if we have opted to study for a PhD in social/political science. Many of us already have the qualifications, knowledge, skills and training but we don’t feel any need to continually boast of our ‘supreme knowledge’, or our ‘duty’ to try to force it on others. Huge sections of btl are just ‘scroll-past’ now and because of that, good informative and enlightening comments get lost among all the crap.

  256. Stuart MacKay says:

    Utterly off topic (more or less).

    If you need an example of condescension from government then look no further,

    Vested interests at the top will ensure land reform, wildlife persecution will remain on the back burner and platitudes served up instead. I bet that sounds familiar.

    Regardless of your views on the SNP, clearly government needs a shake-up.

  257. Breastplate says:

    Thanks for posting Professor Helen Thompson’s article that only makes sense when viewed through the broken prism of Englishness/Britishness.
    My own critical opinion of this is that it’s wind and pish but hey, what do I know, I’m not a political professor.

    It’s good to know that the Unionist argument against independence is incapable of evolution and is the same old nonsense it always was.

  258. Breastplate says:

    Just playing catch-up but I see the professor has been given short shrift by others too.

  259. mike cassidy says:

    I have no idea how ‘accurate’ this google tool is

    But the result for the phrase ‘scottish independence’is interesting.

  260. Tinto Chiel says:

    @mike Cassidy 11.15: thanks for that. I don’t know what is worse, aspects of so-called Marxist theory or the creeping Atlanticism in the SG.

    Given the catch-all potential of the HCB, I wouldn’t like us all to be unaware wee lobsters in the warming pot of water who realise too late the nature of the situation if this bill passes into law.

  261. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 7.42 & Jfngw @ 9.36

    The notion that there *simply has to be a Union of some sort on this island * is never quite justified. There’s just the assumption that nothing works unless there is. Then of course there’s no recognition that the reason the current Union is such an ” ad hoc” and “muddling through” Union which is indeed what developed. Is because there is no other way to reconcile the two different countries into one without ending both and bringing into being one country under a Constitution,which they cannot ever do and keep the Crown in Parliament.
    A Crown which brings with it the Titles, Land and the wealth that flows from such things that currently remain beyond question, on to the Constitutional table!
    So yes a typical wordy piece with a colonial bent trying once again to square a circle.
    The end of the Union is the most obvious and elegant solution for all the people on this island just not for the Crown and those with the Titles and Title Deeds,that need the “muddle” to keep good of their privilege!

    Which brings me to…

    Colin Alexander @ Part 1-4
    It is the Treaty of Union which give acts of the UK Parliament the force of Law !
    The Treaty is the foundation document of the UK Parliament it’s self
    Strike down the Treaty and the body (by which ever nominal title it is then styled) at Westminster has no legal ability to write Laws for Scotland.
    But never fear Colin lucky old us have a parliament in Holyrood up and running,to do just that very thing !

    Terrance Callahan @ 10.07
    Oh my Terrance,if you’re right and ye can’t apply laws and treaties from as far back as the 1706/7 !
    The Hendry VIII laws, the “Union of the Crown’s” and Magnacarta are in a wee bit o bother,don’t ye think.
    Do the Americans know of this I wonder?
    Or does 1776 make the cut?

    It’s a Treaty agreement Terrance… no a law of nature,or a title deed.
    It’s done.
    It’s had it’s day.
    It’s no fit for any 21st century purpose and doesn’t need interpreting.
    It just needs to end!

  262. CameronB Brodie says:

    Multiculturalism doesn’t mean we need to accept and support all elements of all cultures. It simply acknowledges that white, Christian, culture has an historic advantage, but is not intrinsically superior to non-white, non-Christian, cultures.

    Multiculturalism celebrates and respects cultural DIFFERENCE, as a source of political legitimacy. This is a political position that English Torydum is ideologically opposed to.

    Tolerance and cultural
    diversity in Europe:
    Theoretical perspectives and
    contemporary developments

  263. CameronB Brodie says:

    So who are you outside your imagination, are you the site owner?

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