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Spot The Victims

Posted on September 07, 2019 by

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  1. 07 09 19 08:56

    Spot The Victims | speymouth

119 to “Spot The Victims”

  1. jimnarlene says:

    That is all I can think of, the starkness between that statistic and Tory self pity is beyond words.

  2. Terry callachan says:

    Wee ginger dug makes a good point here

  3. Effijy says:

    130,000 Needless Tory Deaths in the name of making the filthy rich disgustingly rich.

    The biggest fiddle ever played and English White Supremest’s dancing to the tune.

  4. ALANM says:

    As the noble Lord Foulkes once observed, The SNP is playing a very dangerous game and they’re doing it deliberately…

    Next week could see Boris Johnson forced to resign and the SNP/Lib Dems propping up a brief Corbyn-led administration which extends or revokes Article 50 before calling a general election in November.

    The backlash from such a stunt would likely ensure a massive majority for the Tories/Brexit Party following the election with all that entails for austerity and the prospects of securing an agreement for a second independence referendum anytime soon.

  5. Fergus Green says:

    FAO Stuart Campbell:

    Stuart, I am reluctant to draw parallels between you and the Prime Minister, but your attitude and that of Johnson over the last few days bear comparison.

    Prominent contributors to WoS along with a well-respected indy blogger disagree with Stuart – Stuart blocks them or takes down links. Long term posters on Wings find they cannot stomach the direction the blog is heading in.

    Prominent members of the Tory party disagree with Boris- Boris trashes them and expels them from the party. Tory MPs and MSPs find they cannot stomach the direction the party is heading in.

    Come on Stuart – you’re better than this.

    Sunny intervals and a gentle breeze in Bath today. Maybe you should take one of your long walks.

  6. Effijy says:

    Is Fergus Green with envy?

    Blog Off.

  7. Andy in Germany says:

    Absolutely spot on. I’ve been pointing this out to people saying that the Tories who voted against Bojo should be ‘commended’ because they somehow showed ‘principle’: They’ve stood by for a decade of the Tories demonising the poor and vulnerable, and now, finally when it is frankly far too late, they grow a bit of a spine…

  8. Ken500 says:

    Heartless. Most folk cannot stomach anymore. The deaths are in the rest of the UK. Thank goodness for the SNP and the SNP governance in Scotland. The Tories are killing off their own supporters. Average member male over seventy. 140,000 of them. The lemming going over the cliff. The ignorant and arrogant carry on.

  9. Ottomanboi says:

    And what does this all say about ‘democracy’, it is the much lauded ‘demos’ that enpowers these feet of clay politicians.
    Two definitions of POLITICIAN
    n. One who is actively involved or skilled in politics, especially one who holds a political office.
    n. One who deceives or outmanoeuvers others for personal gain.
    Democracy truly is the art of hood winking the lamentably gullible masses. Plato would recognize the condition.

  10. mr thms says:

    The darkest hour is just before dawn.

  11. Heart of Galloway says:

    I said this before the SNP parliamentary group’s internal debate on strategy re Monday’s GE vote:”All hinges on when NS and IB think the time is right to decouple from a pan-UK stance on Brexit to seek a Scotland-only solution, for the sake of our country.”

    For the moment, they have come down on the side of aligning with Labour and the Lib Dems meantime to make Johnson squirm.

    That (probably heated) debate would have been informed by several factors, not the least of which iwould have been the danger of being seen to be the only major party to support Boris Johnson in Monday’s GE vote.

    What would have been the reaction in Scotland after BoJo had thanked the SNP for having the “courage” to support him in securing the October 15 poll?

    How would that have played during the GE campaign itself? Or, just as importantly, in IndyRef2? The spectre of being viewed as Boris Johnson”s allies is unthinkable.

    This unholy bond with the wee nasty party’s Jo Swinson and Christine Jardine, and with Corbyn’s pathetic prevaricators is of very short duration.

  12. Famous15 says:

    I will never waver. We lost in 2014 and I do not ever wish to go through that again. It is no joke to see a grown man or even an elderly man cry.

    “I am Nicola Sturgeon”.pace Spartacus.

    To the Wee Ginger Dug I would only say about your excellent words that I do hope I will not need ma light fawn jaikit when I reach the top of the mountain.

    All of you,and I mean this most sincerely,have a happy day!

  13. Marcia says:

    Heart of Galloway

    The longer this saga goes on it makes Johnson look in office but having no power to do anything. Weak as dishwater. In the forthcoming election aside from the constitution question, another line of attack should be, “Do you really want to be ruled by Dominic Cummings and his shady sect?”

  14. galamcennalath says:

    Yes, there are no good Tories. They are all barstads and have form to prove it.

  15. Maria F says:

    ALANM says:
    7 September, 2019 at 7:34 am
    “The SNP is playing a very dangerous game and they’re doing it deliberately…”

    I should hope so. Strategic politics is a risk, sometimes a gamble and because of that dangerous. If the SNP were not capable of strategic politics they would not be in this game. Strategic politics requires deliberate thought. You will never win a battle if you do not have a deliberate purpose and if you show in detail your strategy to your enemy before attacking. The only thing your enemy needs to know is that you will stop them getting what they want until you get what you want first.

    “Next week could see Boris Johnson forced to resign and the SNP/Lib Dems propping up a brief Corbyn-led administration which extends or revokes Article 50 before calling a general election in November”

    Good. Scotland never voted for Brexit. Scotland never asked for Brexit. Scotland never gave consent for A50 to be triggered. So I really hope such a strategy works and the wheels of the VIP taxdodgers’ brexit get taken out and burned down.

    “The backlash from such a stunt would likely ensure a massive majority for the Tories”

    I doubt it, to be frank. Firstly, will it be any tory party left? Because it is eating itself up. Secondly, Johnson promised the UK would have exited the EU by 31st October. If this does not happen because a delay/revoking A50 is happening it would count as his failure, as the failure of the tory party to deliver. Most brexit voters are tory supporters. Such a stunt will drag people out from voting tory not towards voting for a party that has failed to deliver. And worse, as brexit looks less and less attainable, the VIP taxdodgers and foreign interests behind brexit will start to get impatient and stop funding and supporting a tired tory horse that has now lost its horseshoes and half of its teeth. Farage and his cartel of bigots and racists coming to power will be a boost for independence. It will certainly focus the mind of some of those soft no voters.

    I welcome the delay of brexit and the prospect of those EU tax evasion laws to be implemented as soon as possible. I think it is unfair that the other 27 have to abide by those regulations while the UK, still in the EU for the foreseeable future, is avoiding them.

    I welcome even more stopping brexit altogether. Why? Firstly because Scotland did not give consent for it and therefore A50 should have never been triggered in the first place. Secondly because the message this will send to those behind brexit is very strong:

    Do you want brexit? Then you have to let Scotland go first.

  16. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have made this point on here before, and it saddens me that I need to make it again, but: what we are witnessing at this time is typical Scottish behaviour – just at the moment when it seems we have our enemies where we want them, our leaders have started to fall-out.

    We are restless to move on, to Indyref2 and to independence, but, we are, as ever, being thwarted by Westminster, and by our own doubts.

    I want Nicola Sturgeon to fire the starting pistol, I am annoyed at the delay, and I wonder why we are holding-off going for the jugular while the Westminster government is so mired in a shitefest of its own making.

    But, I was greatly calmed by reading Wee Ginger Dug’s latest blog, in which he, as ever, speaks sense. The SNP has to demonstrate it tried everything it could to stop the English (and Scottish Tories) from suicide, before we put them out of their misery by winning independence, for which, as WGD stated, we need the support of the soft Noes, who finally realise – independence is our only recourse to escape the coming shitestorm.

  17. Silverytay says:

    I hope it’s not to early for O.T
    Does anyone know if there is a Wings stall in Perth today and if so where will it be .
    Will it be at 7 Acres for the start of the march or the North Inch for the end of the march

  18. kapelmeister says:

    The Yougov poll confined to the 13 seats the
    Scottish Tories have at Westminster has the SNP 12% ahead. A Tory wipeout is possible, although James Kelly reckons both Mundell and Lamont in the Borders would have an even chance.

    Alister Jack, who rose without trace and has the lowest profile of any SoSfS in history, looks to be returning quickly to a career of hosting shooting and fishing parties for toffs and shouting at people to get off his land.

  19. Ken500 says:

    Support for SNP/Independence still rising. Just as predicted. Aye and Aye again. Nothing to gain from detracting.

  20. gus1940 says:

    I along with many others am disturbed at the direction in which this blog is travelling.

    As far as any future funding effort is concerned whereas I have always chipped in enthusiastically my participation will be doubtful unless Stu starts to demonstrate that he is not embarking on some sort of ego trip.

  21. Tartanpigsy says:

    Im not in Perth today, but @Silverytay imo the Wings stall will be at the endpoint.
    A call has gone out that all stalls can set up free.
    #AUOB building bridges again now the money grabbers been shunted.
    Im giving this another push.
    Losing the will tbh but it needs doing

  22. Ken500 says:

    The Tories and unionists are now in meltdown. What a complete and utter shambles. They could not make a bigger mess. Scotland will rise like a Phoenix out of it. Flying high with wings. A new beginning.

  23. robertknight says:


    “what we are witnessing at this time is typical Scottish behaviour – just at the moment when it seems we have our enemies where we want them, our leaders have started to fall-out.”

    Very well said!

    Let history teach us…

    Battle of Solway Moss (1542)…

    Scotland’s forces outnumbered those of England by 5:1 but the Scots lost due to arguments over command and general ill-discipline.

    Sound familiar???

  24. Muscleguy says:

    @Socrates MacSporran
    It isn’t just the soft Noes we need to persuade it might well also be the international community. It is still entirely possible that we will need to take an ‘unconventional’ route out such as weaponising a Holyrood List vote over a sanctioned IndyRef.

    If we do that Westminster is under no obligation to take any more notice than they do of Holyrood votes. So we will need the international community to notice and notice that we have no other option in an intolerable situation and recognise it as they signally failed to do to the Catalan referendum.

    In our favour the EU countries want iScotland in the EU and this will play in our favour. The Norwegians and the rest of the Scandis are also in favour, they want iScotland in the Council of the North. The question is will that be enough to bring the rest of the world to the party. We could be like Kosovo, in limbo. Minting a Scotpoun in that scenario would be very, very difficult. Westminster could cut up rough as well. We could have UN Blue Helmets patrolling the border and protecting enclaves of OO types and the Landed Rich.

    We need the US, Russia and China to recognise us. Russia might for geostrategic reasons but not if we intend to join the EU. China with Tibet and Xinjiang, not to mention Taiwan in mind may not. Trump might take the hump because he doesn’t like the SNP either despite what the State Dept urges him.

  25. galamcennalath says:

    I too subscribe to the WGD school of thought, however it is bloody frustrating being patient week after week, not knowing what’s going on.

  26. carjamtic says:

    Not easy when dealing with such dark matter, but nicely summarised Chris, I can imagine your hand was shaking drawing it.

    When the UK government rewards these greedy bastards, with an eternal get out of jail free card, is it any wonder they slouch, smirk and sneer at us, with totally no fucks to give about ordinary people.


    To further their ends, they have led the voters into an ‘dead end’ (think seven bridges of Königsberg) it is an impossible challenge (and they know it).
    Our only solution, is Independence, anything else is the road to insanity and a slow torturous painful death.


    A practicable/doable (if not totally original) upgraded solution from Stuart if coordinated properly, will stop the BOGOF system of getting a free yoon with Yes vote, what’s not to like.

    We can learn a lot from road builders, sometimes the ‘on’ lane is straight onto the fast lane and sometimes the ‘off’ lane is also from the fast lane, anyone who has driven on the M8 in Glasgow will have experienced this and some out of the box ‘irrational’ thinking led to many arguments, but ultimately the best solution.

    Unless we want this sad state of affairs to continue (we all agree, we don’t) can we stop trying to rationalise Brexit using normal logic, it will fry your brain and move onto Indy matters and some out of the box thinking, any/all ideas are open for discussion, heated debate, however be prepared for some old school resistance and many falling outs,change don’t come easy, as the ‘enlightened’ M8 road building Engineers would surely confirm.

    So come on, stop chasing these falling whirlygiggin UK leaves, people are dying here…….and the crows are flying.

  27. defo says:

    Top tooning CC
    Your depictions of Soames, Clark, Stewart & Hammo are particularly good, but where does Brian Sewell come into it?

  28. Astonished says:

    Gus1940@9.57am I too am concerned re the direction of travel of this blog.

    I would ask posters to ignore those who pick fights and insult them (they are likely in the pay of our imperial masters).I see Dave McEwan Hill has left, I would beg him to reconsider. And Robert Pfeffers has not posted for a while.

    We need everyone so please continue to comment.

    As for Stu – you are being petty -not a good look. Be the bigger man and re-attach the Scotland goes pop link. you’ll feel better and we’ll thank you for it.

    The Brutish Aristocracy are famed for sowing division and thus conquering. Please lets not divide now.

  29. Dr Jim says:

    Wee Ginger Dug has outlined the plan and maybe he shouldn’t have because the detracters will rubbish it in true detracter Farage style seeing as how this is the new undermine the SNP tactic which won’t work as the numbers are starting to show

    Brexit will more than likely happen one way or another and that will be the moment when *the plan* will become obvious, when all efforts to prevent it have failed and the remainers who previously wouldn’t have voted for Independence will see the only option left open to them

    Folk will still dissagree but they can’t offer an alternative solution other than to throw their toys out the pram and blame the SNP for (no daein sumthin) not having the power the detracters falsely endow them with in order to canvass support for complaining for the sake of it in some sort of Corbynesque moaning non solution offering manner

    It’s every bit as bad as Farage standing in front of a picture of immigrants and shouting look what they’re not fixing for you and basing that on asking people to vote for him on the basis that he’s an anarchist, but a nice one

  30. Silverytay says:

    Thanks for the info

  31. Capella says:

    @ Astonished – good points. I think restoring the Scot Goes Pop link and The PNR would be a reconciliation gesture of Good Friday proportions.

  32. dadsarmy says:

    Good grief, now those who have a different opinion about something to do with the SNP are being compared to Farage being racist.

  33. Breeks says:

    Another good one Chris.

    I was thinking along similar lines before Johnson kicked out his rebels, at the fawning respect for Ken Clarke.

    I remember Ken Clarke as one of Thatcher’s stormtroopers, and if memory serves, I think he was in the Pioneer Corps, pioneering how to smash up the NHS into Trusts and other Quangos, with chums of the Tories stuffed onto every board of directors.

    Not much cuddly about old Ken, but perhaps that just makes it even worse. If Ken Clarke is your range marker for liberal decency and integrity in Westminster, what does it say about the crooks, liars and spivs who currently make Mr Clarke look like the nice guy?

  34. ahundredthidiot says:

    Dr Jim @10:37

    I completely agree with the first part of your post.

    The second part was just stupid.

  35. kapelmeister says:

    What a year it’s been for Rory the ex-Tory. The excitement – so much excitement he had trouble staying on his chair – of taking part in the contest to be PM. Thinking briefly that he had the momentum and could win. The dissapointment. Having to leave the cabinet. Now chucked out the party. The thrilling prospect though of leading MPs over the road to hold parliament in a church hall when BoJo prorogues.

    Someone might erect a cairn in Middleland in honour of his heroics. Of course that someone could only be Rory himself.

  36. RobertTheTruth says:

    Yes, the sight of Jess Phillips standing up, voice breaking and berating her ‘fellow’ Tories. Those who had sympathised with her Labour leadership problems previously. It would bring a tear to a glass eye. Tory grandees who had voted through some of the worst policies to affect the population of the UK since Thatcher. Ah but they are ‘prominent’ and ‘old hands’ and they get the respect that being in a job for life and power entitles you to.

    They were loyal to the Party, until now…

    What is it that brings out that sense of entitlement, that righteous indignation that you should be heard and your views must be agreed with? That anyone disagreeing with you must be on the other side, because you have been here since 19 oatcakes and you ‘know’ more than anyone else?

    Anyone would think there was a bit of that going on here with comments about ‘prominent contributers’ and ‘dog whistles’.

    Who exactly are the dogs here?

    The anxious SNP voters and Indy supporters who wonder if their votes will be wasted? It seems they are yet again the target of the intolerant zealots who will take any criticism of the party machine as an indication of lack of loyalty to the cause?

    Or is it the SNP faithful who cannot bear any criticism of their party or leader? The people who use this site to push their party’s agenda and feel aggrieved that not everyone, including the site owner agrees with them?

    Anyway, it seems they are moving their snark to WGD and playing Indy sites off against each other, sowing division because people won’t adhere to the purity of the Party line. Threatening to withdraw funding unless the site owner adheres to their line of argument and thought.

    Some of us have seen it all before – it is straight out of the Labour playbook.

  37. Welsh Sion says:

    Good luck to both AUOB Rallies in Scotland and Wales, today!

  38. Dorothy Devine says:

    Welsh Sion , fly that dragon high!

  39. Doug says:

    Deep stuff, Chris. And let’s say a prayer for poor wee Soamesy, Churchill’s grandson. Arrogance and ignorance towards Scotland runs in that family.

    Aye, weegingerdug calls it calmly.

    Hear hear, Welsh Sion.

    Meanwhile civil war in England continues to supply the entertainment. English nationalism will deliver a united Ireland and Scotland with its independence regained. We might as well help our English friends on their way.

  40. Doug says:

    @Astonished 10:24am


  41. Cubby says:

    Wee ginger dug spelling out what I always thought was obvious. For the hard of thinking we need to take a decent number of the startled fawns with us. An SNP strategy of keeping people like me ( life long supporter of independence ) happy was never going to deliver independence.

  42. Welsh Sion says:

    Just seen it.

    Isn’t that a beautiful front page on today’s “National”? 🙂

  43. CmonIndy says:

    As I march in Perth today, I will have a smile thinking of the political slaughter of the Scottish Tory MPs. Especially Luke ‘look who I met today’ Graham.

  44. RobertTheTruth says:

    Wee Ginger Dug says nothing controversial and keeps the SNP faithful on side. He is a good writer. That’s why he got a gig in The National.

    People who only want to hear things that do not challenge them or their established dogma will find their comfort blankets. It is sad that supposed grown ups cannot accept disagreement within their own side and seek to other and cast out the non-believers.

  45. Gfaetheblock says:

    If the SNP had voted for may’s deal on the 29th March, it would have passed 320 to 310. This would mean:

    Brexit happens this year, triggering indyref2 mandate
    Brexit would be softer than a no deal Brexit, meaning that the case for indy would not be killed.

    I believe that the SNP know two things:

    1 – indy only stacks up economically if Scot and rUK are in a common trading block
    2 – supporting May’s deal would have offended much of their base, making them lose power

    Therefore the SNP are in a position of their own design and have paused the push for indy

  46. Tartanpigsy says:

    Interesting that John Swinney and Pete Wishart are speaking at #AUOB Perth today.
    I wonder if Nicola will be at #AUOB Edinburgh

  47. Tartanpigsy says:

    Interesting that John Swinney and Pete Wishart are speaking at #AUOB Perth today.
    I wonder if Nicola will be at
    #AUOB Edinburgh

  48. Tartanpigsy says:


  49. Bob Mack says:

    One of the hardest thing any professor in University attempts ,is to imbue their students to appreciate Critical Thinking.

    Critical thinking involves reassessment of all your values and asks you to go beyond your preconceptions and values you have held all your life in order to appreciate how others may look at the same subjects differently.

    Some of the students on here are in the D ? category at present.

    Inability to deviate from your formed but narrow view on anything is the road to unquestioned obedience.

    Interestingly enough, it is usually extremist organisations who recruit those unable to broaden their views.

  50. schrodingers cat says:


    rted on yesnef twitter account just now

    i will boost this crowd fund through out the day, these flags are the yes groups biggest source of income

  51. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – People with lower emotional intelligence are more likely to hold right-wing views, study finds

    The researchers found that individuals with weaker emotional abilities — particularly emotional understanding and management — tended to score higher on a measure of right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation.

    Right-wing authoritarianism is a personality trait that describes the tendency to submit to political authority and be hostile towards other groups, while social dominance orientation is a measure of a person’s preference for inequality among social groups.

    “The results of this study were univocal. People who endorse authority and strong leaders and who do not mind inequality — the two basic dimensions underlying right-wing political ideology — show lower levels of emotional abilities,” Van Hiel told PsyPost.

  52. Bob Mack says:


    What’s more right wing than ostracising someone who has endured death threats,abuse and hatred on our behalf?

    I have read many many postings on these threads,all proclaiming to want a better more inclusive and just Scotland.
    Many of these posts were from people who have recently decided to leave or withdraw funding from the site.

    The Rev’s crime? He dared to question the leader. He dared to suggest she might be lying.

    Lying has many variations. Around 8 types. Straight lies, omissions, additions, and several others. Questioning the leader leads to abuse and punishment. Sound familiar?

    Allegiance ,especially unquestioning allegiance has inherent dangers. The reaction of some indicates that quite clearly.

  53. Ottomanboi says:

    A recent yougov. poll suggests the Stop Brexit party aka SNP would wipe out the Tory unionists. Excellent, but having almost wiped out them and the rest of the unionist parties in a previous Westminster election and failed to capitalize what exactly would such a situation mean, given that independence seems a second level issue to the Sturgeonite tendency who talk the talk but fail to do the liberation walk.
    From the current ‘chaos’ the Scots might well walk away with the customary zilch.

  54. Mist001 says:

    What’s the story with this ‘Scot Goes Pop’ thing? I read it last night for the first ever time and was absolutely shocked!! Apparently, the Rev called the guy a cunt three times on Twitter so that James Kelly reported and got the Rev suspended from Twitter because he was offended??? Talk about a snowflake!! I wonder how he gets on in real life.

    And now people are getting onto the Rev because of that and the fact that he doesn’t fall into your world view of the SNP, so you’re all whining. FFS, grow up and grow a pair. The things that the Rev points out about the SNP are obvious to all but the most brainwashed supporters and here’s a news flash: The SNP and its leadership are NOT above criticism and should NEVER be treated as if they are.

  55. Cubby says:

    Scotgov Programme for Government 2019-20

    “Next August we will deliver one of the defining commitments of this current parliamentary session. Around 80 thousand families in Scotland will start to benefit from our expansion of early years education and childcare. All 3 and 4 year olds and 2 year olds from poorer families will be eligible for 30 hours a week of free early learning and childcare during the school year. That represents a total investment of £900 million a year in giving our children a best start in life. It will save parents up to £4.5k per year.”

    Some good news from the Scot gov and the words of Nicola Sturgeon. Somehow I don’t think she is lying. More good news can be found in the programme for government and that is not a lie either.

  56. Bobp says:

    Bob mack 1.30pm. Agree, but me personally i’ll give the snp the benefit of the doubt till direct rule is imposed from westminster. And if that ever happens, they’ll go the same way as liebor in Scotland.

  57. Bob Mack says:


    What if there are not enough places or staff for that childcare.It’s already difficult. Is that a lie? Nicola may well be sincere about it (no doubt), but does she really believe it will be as easy as that,and that local councils will readily meet her aim?

  58. Bobp says:

    Doug 1.47pm. Yes and all those welsh onlookeers and family members who are looking forward to seeing it and themselves on the evening bbc wales news, will realise the agenda when there is no/barely a mention of it. More eyes in Wales opened just like Scotland.

  59. Bobp says:

    ” onlookers”

  60. Jack Murphy says:

    PERTH March and Rally TODAY.

    Here’s the Main Portal for Independence Livestream.

    ” Independence Live
    The Citizen Broadcast Channel. DON’T HATE THE MEDIA, BECOME THE MEDIA. Join, Share or Support Us. ”

    Starting soon.
    John Swinney MSP and Pete Wishart MP are scheduled to speak.

  61. Jim Thomson says:

    @Capella 10:50am

    OK, missed the PNR being banned. What happened there?

    The PNR and I fell out (at a Wings do) a couple of years ago but he and I recognised the idiocy of our mutual positions and have since been working together to benefit the indy movement and promote Wings wherever we can.

    “Getting over it” can be a pain but, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages – always.

  62. Bob Mack says:

    @Jim Thomson,

    He told the Rev to f#ck off and was duly banned.

  63. Jim Thomson says:

    @Bob Mack 2:06pm

    Aye, OK, THAT would do it right enough.


  64. Ghillie says:

    Chris, ‘130,000 killed by tory austerity’.

    That is a staggering number of people dead.

    I don’t know how to visualise that.

    I can not think of any natural disaster that has befallen the British Isles, ever, that has caused anything like that magnitude of loss of life.

    They chose to do that. They thought it was clever. It is murder.

    Your painful cartoon today and our comments must stick in the craw of our SIU lurkers and moles.

    Whoever they voted for, this is on them too. This is the outcome of their attempts to tie Scotland to a sick government.

    130,000 souls. Lost.

  65. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – I was agreeing with your point about obedience to authority. The article was saying that it’s a personality trait related to emotional insecurity. I’ve always thought that fear is the underlying driver of the type of person who likes right wing authority figures. But how to overcome the fear and encourage self determination?

    Nicola Sturgeon’s softer, caring government approach is much more likely to win over the waverers than a more rabble rousing one IMO. Most of us just want government to make life better for everyone.

  66. Mac says:

    Boris will not stand down just yet. There is too much at stake for him personally. He will play the ‘extension’ game.

    However… there will not be a unanimous vote from the EU (all 27) There will be a couple of countries who will veto. If unanimous, is indeed a condition, there will be no extension.

    It will not be Macron or Merkel of course.

  67. Capella says:

    @ Jim Thompson – an unfortunate incident late on Friday evening – drink may or may not have been involved.

    I’ve met ThePNR and found him to be a very engaged and positive supporter of independence. So I am not happy about the banning and do hope the two lads will come to some truce. ThePNRs comments are normally very thought provoking. But on that occasion provoked Stu. Pity.

    We need some conflict resolution process – a Backstop.

  68. Bob Mack says:


    Yes we are emotionally insecure, because we have no comfort that what we avidly wish for will come true. This is where leadership comes to the fore.
    You have to inspire and engage those who have put their trust in you. You have to convince them that they and their dreams are the focus of your energy.

    Right now they see Nicola caring about the whole of the UK rather than her specific remit to focus on Scotland and for what could be for many a last chance to see a dream come true.

    She is spread too thin to offer that reassurance and comfort.
    Many are like children who see their parents spend time with the neighbours children at their expense. Not good.

  69. William Wallace says:

    It is common parlance in Dundee to swear at each other in any heated or even mild debate.

    Fuck off, fuck you, cheeky bastard, shut yir puss, yir haverin shite, awa an fuck, greeting puss cunt and the like are used in everyday language amongst friends and family even in the most civilised of exchanges.

    PNR has been an excellent contributor to this site and I have always enjoyed reading his musings. It seems a wee bit daft to ban him and discourages healthy exchanges of opinion between the Rev and regular BTL contributors.

    There is no doubt Stu is very often proved to be right on a lot of things (history has shown this to be the case time and again). However, he can not be right 100% of the time and sometimes accepting that maybe you have got it wrong on a particular occasion demonstrates strength – not weakness.

    With regard to banning PNR, I feel the rev has got it wrong. Fair enough things got a bit heated, words were said and actions taken but, it’s not worth banning him over it as he is otherwise an excellent contributor to WoS.

    Hopefully, having had a wee bit of time to calm down those involved will see sense and order will be restored. It’s a shame to see other well known posters vacating the premises too as I find their contributions extremely useful and interesting. I realise the natives are getting restless but, turning on each other at this crucial time is counterproductive. Sort it out folks. !PLUR!

  70. Colin Alexander says:

    Wee Ginger Dug is good: He bites the hand of Project Fear.

    Just a shame he always uncritically licks the hand of the SNP like a faithful dug to his master.

  71. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@1.47pm

    No it’s a possible implementation problem. Any types of change management or projects can encounter difficulties. I think anyone who has been involved in change management will know it is not easy and I don’t remember Sturgeon saying it would be easy. What is easy is doing nothing at all to make Scotland a better country.

    I can tell you what is a lie – Johnston saying in Hof Commons that Scotland is the highest taxed country in Europe.

    I find it astonishing that when Britnats lie all the time about all manner of things that some people who claim to be independence supporters are straining to find a way of saying Sturgeon is a liar.

  72. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – I don’t see Nicola as caring more about the UK than Scotland. She is someone who has devoted her entire life to Scottish independence, unlike most people who let others do the graft.

    The stop BREXIT campaign is sensible ATM. The SNP have campaigned for decades under the “Scotland in Europe” banner. It would be hypocritical to pretend now that BREXIT has nothing to do with us. It offers endless demonstrations of the dysfunctional and corrupt Westminster system.

    There is no contradiction in wanting to stop BREXIT and wanting to stop a no-deal BREXIT at the same time. As Alex Salmond famously said about Indyref1 – yes he wants an “all or something” outcome.

    Meanwhile she is setting out legislation to facilitate Holyrood referendums.

  73. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@2.41pm

    Strangely enough. I have never seen a Colin Alexander stall at any independence marches selling SNP baaad merchandise and promoting that the SNP are really really bad and totally useless. Funny that.

    Is it because everyone knows you are a phoney independence supporter and a shit stirrer..

  74. Bob Mack says:


    Nobody is “straining” as you say,but perhaps it’s better to withdraw from our exchanges. You have your view,I have mine

  75. Bob Mack says:


    Perception versus realty. Powerful stuff. Are these threads not full of people questioning why Nicola is fighting for a Brexit for England?
    That is their perception.

  76. Capella says:

    About timing of Indyref2 – aficionados tell us that a winter campaign is a very bad idea. That would indicate something between May and September 2020. The Declaration of Arbroath celebrations would be a good backdrop.

    Perhaps we should be penciling in next summer but bear in mind that Westminster will try to scupper every possible opportunity.

  77. Arthur Thomson says:

    I come to Wings regularly because I am interested to read the articles and people’s thoughts. I don’t read the obvious trolls. The range of comments is indicative of a range of opinions and that is fine. Occasionally I gain an insight or two.

    What I don’t come here for is to follow blindly the opinions of Stu or anyone else. I don’t imagine anyone else does either. Therefore, I am relaxed about the apparent differences of opinion expressed. If contributors and readers come and go that is ok. If Brit trolls are happy to waste their time writing lies on here then that is good, at least they are leaving other people in peace. We here on Wings can just treat their lies with the contempt they deserve.

    The concern that Wings is somehow going down the hill or that the Indy movement is deteriorating because of differences in preferred strategy, tactics or personalities is unfounded. The Indy movement is growing as increasing numbers of Scots reject British lies and decide that they want independence. The personalities within the movement have the capacity to help grow the movement when they are positive; they simply diminish their own importance within the movement when they choose to be dogmatic. Such is life.

  78. robin says:

    we ginger dugs article is very good

    2 things

    1: Nicola has been using the fawn tactics especially regarding women voters for some time, which I believe Stu has mentioned in some previous blog (apology if I referce wrongly)

    2: I suspect Stu is being provocatively anti snp (independence now!!!! ) so the electoral commission don’t combine the votes of his list party and the SNP after a legal challenge.

  79. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@2.52pm

    Fair enough.

  80. Jim Thomson says:

    @Capella 2:23pm

    Yup, agree. The wee fall-out we had was (ever so slightly) lubricated too 😉

    Late Friday is always an interesting time-zone as far as opinions and heat of debate are concerned.

  81. Breeks says:

    galamcennalath says:
    7 September, 2019 at 10:17 am
    I too subscribe to the WGD school of thought, however it is bloody frustrating being patient week after week, not knowing what’s going on.

    It’s not a great strategy to leave your own people exasperated and idling in the dark, literally for years. Even if you do have dilemmas and unknowns to resolve, and maybe it is necessary to keep the main strategy under wraps, but you still need a lesser strategy that’s designed to keep the troops happy. Leadership isn’t just making big decisions, it’s organisation and logistics, and looking after morale.

    When you know your strategy is causing unrest and loss of confidence, you know morale is flagging, but you do nothing whatsoever to address concerns, and even worse, leave it all to fester, then the entirely predictable product of it all will be growing frustration and resentment, and squabbling in the ranks. What other result would any reasonable person expect?

    Everybody and his dog quotes Sun Tzu and The Art of War… It’s a bit like GERS, there’s a quote or interpretation for every occasion, but one of his quotes was that when a camp is divided, the General is weak…. If you want proof, just look at Tory Leadership and their European misadventures and division. Labour too under Corbyn…

    * * * * *

    Mac says:
    7 September, 2019 at 2:19 pm
    Boris will not stand down just yet. There is too much at stake for him personally. He will play the ‘extension’ game.

    Boris isn’t done by a long shot. I’ve said it repeatedly, when your first action as Prime Minister is to kick your Parliamentary majority out your own Party, you’re obviously not planning on passing many Parliamentary Bills. So what is it you are planning? Boris has a game plan, and if his fellow Tories won’t play ball, then he needs an election to get rid of them and an influx of Brexit Party populists who will deliver Brexit to it’s shady paymasters.

    Boris Johnson and Farage are still on a mission to get the U.K. out of Europe. They have no plan B. They never did. They just didn’t expect to win the referendum, and haven’t a clue how to deliver the Brexit they never thought they’d have to deliver.

  82. jfngw says:

    @Colin Alexander

    If you want to criticise the WGD why don’t you do it on his site an see if he replies, or are you a paper tiger.

  83. Vestas says:

    For those of us who’ve been around for years (and paid the bills for years and are mostly silent) there’s been a long overdue (IMHO) clearing out of self-appointed BTL “defenders of the site/etc”.

    BTL on Wings has been like fucking groundhog day for years.

    Doesn’t matter what the post was about, BTL will ALWAYS end up with the same people arguing about the same stuff they’ve argued about forever.

    Its BORING & nobody sane reads it anymore.

    Nana’s links were (and are) a quick daily heads-up on stuff happening but apart from that I skimmed past the eternal “we can revoke the union/whatever” arguments (you all know who you are) and went where it isn’t groundhog day

    Stuart Campbell doesn’t represent my views on a number of issues (Gaelic for one) but I don’t pay him for his views, I pay him for what he does.

  84. SilverDarling says:


    Hear, hear.

  85. cynicalHighlander says:


    Well said.

  86. Vestas says:

    The Scot Goes Pop stuff is juvenile IMHO but as said before I don’t pay him for his social skills.

    You should put the link back Stu simply because he does polling stats better than any other indy site.

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 14:49,

    A “Colin Alexander stall”? That unlikely image gave me a good laugh. Nicely said!

  88. ElGordo says:

    Capella says:
    7 September, 2019 at 2:59 pm

    About timing of Indyref2 – aficionados tell us that a winter campaign is a very bad idea. That would indicate something between May and September 2020. The Declaration of Arbroath celebrations would be a good backdrop.

    Perhaps we should be penciling in next summer.

    Yes, anytime from 6th of April, another winter should see a 20k natural net reduction in no voters ~0.5%

  89. Jock McDonnell says:

    Snowflakes everywhere at the moment. Some of them very surprising indeed.
    We are obviously feeling some tension as the end game approaches but having heard Keith Brown speak 3 times or so in the last year & from what I know of big Mike R & JS – there is no lack of commitment to Independence at the top of the SNP. I still trust the FM to get it right and although I’d prefer more fight & less conciliation I do accept this FM reaches sections of the electorate that Eck didn’t but I’ll never really understand that group myself.
    That being said, I’m not above thinking critically about our own side but try not to air it publicly – why do our opponents’ work for them ? We should keep our public criticism aimed squarely where it needs to be – at the unionist establishment who never sleep on the job of wearing Scotland down.
    Eyes on the Prize folks.

  90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Socrates MacSporran @ 09:42,

    Well said. I haven’t read the latest WGD article yet (will do in a mo) but from what you write, it seems that the three of us are on the same page over that.

    These are not “hopeless times”, these are historic times. Yes, also immensely frustrating times, but those who are most ready and willing to utilise them astutely, instead of trying to ignore them or even being overwhelmed by them, are the ones who will win through.

    It’s also been well said: “never let a good crisis go to waste”.

  91. Capella says:

    Bob Mack says “perception v reality”. So here is a photo of John Swinney and Pete Wishart at the front of the Perth AUOB march today. Both were speaking at the rally and Lesley Riddoch must also have been there for these are her pix.

    For those who regularly complain that the SNP hierarchy never attend the maches. Believe the evidence of our own lying eyes?

  92. Bob Mack says:


    I think we are talking on different issues. You feel a photograph of senior SNP figures means they support the march.Fair enough.

    I am talking about the perception people have that the SNP are currently putting more effort in to the Westminster forum to save England from itself.

    Your photos are reality. My issue is perception.

    No need for the barb at the end. That’s puerile.

  93. Welsh Sion says:

    Translation and Editing: WS + GT

    Over 5,000 independence supporters in Merthyr

    7 September 2019 at 15:17

    Independence supporters in Merthyr Saturday 7 September 2019

    Over 5,000 independence supporters have been marching in Merthyr this afternoon.

    They have been listening to prominent figures from politics, sport and literature arguing the case for a free Wales.

    Among the main messages of the rally were:

    * The need to build the confidence that Wales can be independent

    * That Brexit and its impact on Westminster politics add to the demand for independence for Wales

    * Wales is an open country that is ready to welcome everyone.

    “For Wales there is no benefit from Westminster, now or in the future,” said former rugby player Eddie Butler, who received a deafening welcome from the crowd.

    “Every country that has won its freedom has had to start from scratch in building its future.”

    Calling Boris Johnson a ‘homphobic, racist, sexist idiot’, former goalkeeper Neville Southall called on everyone to insist that the Red Dragon roar higher.

    “Yes Wales can,” is the message of Iain Black from Scotland, a leading independence campaigner there, emphasizing the need to instil confidence in people over independence.
    Assembly Member Delyth Jewell said she had always believed that Wales would be independent some day.

    “Increasing noise over the years, months and recent years has led to the culmination of a realization that this must happen now,” she said.

    “This is the way to undo the economic and social devastation that Wales has suffered.”

    Other speakers included poets Patrick Jones, Mike Jenkins and Catrin Dafydd, with the latter arguing the need to ensure a central place for the Welsh language in an independent Wales.

    “Welsh is a language for everyone, with an opportunity for everyone to speak it and learn about the history of Wales.”


  94. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – I apologise if you felt that was a barb. It wasn’t aimed at you. I don’t see any contradiction between perception and reality. What we can personally verify though observation carries a great deal more weight than vague rumours and innuendo about how engaged the SNP are.

    They were there. The facts are always friendly.

  95. ahundredthidiot says:

    I am sure that the PNR will be back. Stu is a Rev and therefore I would expect to see devine forgiveness from one so holy……

    right now though……I’m enjoying the break from his left wing whining (haha, sorry the-pnr, couldn’t help myself)

  96. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Welsh Sion

    Southall & Butler – marvellous – I see from wikipedia Butler is private school & Oxbridge – two highly regarded Welshmen in their sports will certainly make others stop & think.

  97. winifred mccartney says:

    Would it not be the case that by saving England we are also saving Scotland from the cliff edge – since while we are part of UK it is all or nothing and Scottish Govt has to work for indy supporters and non-indy supporters (yet) after all we are not even on the decks but deep in the hold and would have no chance of a life boat.

  98. Bob Mack says:


    No offence was taken from me I assure you.Others might feel differently.

    @Winifred McCartney,

    I think many people believe a no deal Brexit will galvanise voters in Scotland to vote yes.

    They feel the SNP are sacrificing that option by trying to get a deal for everybody.

    It’s as basic as that.

  99. Footsoldier says:

    BBC is going to fight fake news? Must be some kind of joke!

  100. Ghillie says:

    winifred maccartney @ 5.47 pm

    Well said 🙂

  101. Ghillie says:

    Welsh Sion @ 5.35 pm

    What a brilliant day for Wales =)

    Onwards and upwards friend 🙂

    Perth looks pretty brilliant too 🙂

  102. Frank Gillougley says:

    Apropos last night and wos and wgd, I believe that politically we all have to live and travel by faith in the sense that we simply don’t know a lot of stuff. My heart goes out nonetheless to all affected by these disagreements. The first verse of this came to mind

  103. Ghillie says:

    Oh thankyou Frank =)

    That is lovely.

  104. manandboy says:

    The Welsh are rising up.
    T’ Nor’n Irish are up-rising, unsurprising
    The Scots are surmising.
    The English be down-sizing.

  105. galamcennalath says:

    My daughter just got a targeted Facebook advert for ‘Scottish’ Labour. Clearly targeting young people.

    Where did the dosh for that come from?

  106. laukat says:

    Might be a daft question but is there anything to stop BoJo from asking for an extension with conditions attached or delivered in way that mean the EU will refuse to give him one? (i.e. we would like an extension until 31st January but only if that extension is delivered by the European President on all 4’s singing rule brittania)

    If posisble would this allow him to comply with UK law but still get a no deall on 31st October?

  107. Cubby says:


    I think that is why the law includes the exact letter Johnson is to sign and send to the EU.

  108. Lenny Hartley says:

    laukat Its not certain that the EU would grant the UK an extension even if they did ask for one. Saw a tweet recently on Revs twitter feed saying that A senior Finnish politician was saying that there was not broad concensusvin the Eu to grant an extension.

  109. Welsh Sion says:

    Excuse my ignorance, but who is “Iain Black” who featured in OUR AUOB Rally in Merthyr today?

    ““Yes Wales can,” is the message of Iain Black from Scotland, a leading independence campaigner there, emphasizing the need to instil confidence in people over independence.”

    Scotland’s favourite Sikh was also in attendance! Great stuff!

  110. Colin Alexander says:


    You are playing the man, no the ba’.

    Personally, I don’t like to see Stu or Alex swearing at anyone. But Stu and Alex are adults and make their own decisions.

    I would rather people criticise the SNP and the SNP listen and do something about the criticism, rather than the SNP losing half a million votes come election time or alienating bloggers who have done immense work for the indy cause, from which the SNP have benefitted.

    But the SNP don’t listen any more under the presidential-style SNP.

  111. Colin Alexander says:


    I regularly read the Wee Ginger Dug blog and listen to the podcasts.

    It’s a good blog and would recommend it to anyone. I see it as the Last of the Summer Wine of the indy blogs. Anodyne, witty and interesting factual information well presented.

    But, I also find it too uncritical of the SNP. That’s all.

  112. Old Pete says:

    Amber Rudd resigns, blaw bag Boris is sinking faster by the minute.
    Now is the time to call a referendum on our Independence, so Nicola ?

  113. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@7.54pm

    “You are playing the man, no the ba. ”

    Wow how astute of you to recognise that. Same as you were playing Wee ginger dug.

    Now to change the subject – if you get a move on you could order a supply of “make Scotland great again “. “SNP out”. baseball caps in time for the Edinburgh march. I am sure you could sell loads of them at your Colin Alexander for FM stall.

  114. Gary45% says:

    Chris Another Gem, Nice One.
    Great day out at Perth today, happy punters all round, great seeing Mr “Shouty” and the knuckle draggers being drowned out, glad to get a few words with Ronnie just before we left for the journey home and a wee hello to Paula Rose.
    Maybe CA should get a stall set up for the rallies, selling massive chips.
    Hey Ronnie ” I choose Catalonia” Hope the back gets better soon. Did the red vino help?

  115. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander @ 20:02,

    Well dear Colin, why don’t you set up your own blog that is all the things you admire about WGD, plus you can be free to be as critical of the SNP as you like.

    Then see how many people show up.

    And since you’re so delightfully coy about it on here, I’m sure we would all flock to it (at least once) to discover exactly who you really support.

  116. Al-Stuart says:


    Hi Chris & Stu.,

    A heartfelt thank you for posting this thread and the faux sympathy to those Tory killers of the disabled at losing their beloved political careers.

    Overnight my friends updated the Calum’s List website that has been campaigning to stop the welfare reform deaths directly as a result of seeing the poignant political sketch on Wings Over Scotland.

    The original owner of Calum’s List website is dead, having been killed off by ConDem austerity.

    The team member who was on duty last night emailed me to see if there was a way she could ask permission to feature Chis Cairn’s work at the head of this thread on the Calum’s List website.

    Promised I would ask before leaving for work this morning.

    Would it be okay please?

    Best wishes,

    Alasdair Stuart.

  117. Ghillie says:

    Alasdair Stuart, a brilliant idea =)

    If you haven’t heard from Chris yet maybe post this on latest comments or email S. Campbell directly.

    Callum’s List, so long. Too long. One name on the list would be too many.

  118. Cactus says:

    Aye, Spot The Victims…

    They are The EVEL Eight

    Over 130,000+ people killed by Tory austerity

    Go Compare with the remaining victims, the real ones

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