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Stopping making sense

Posted on September 10, 2017 by

After a few months with no Scottish polling, today’s Sunday Times carries the results of a Panelbase one which, among other things, reinforces our oft-stated view that Scottish subsamples of UK-wide polls are completely meaningless.

While several of those have shown Labour or even the Tories in the lead, the full-size, properly-weighted poll still has the SNP a massive 14 points in front on 42%, with the Tories trailing behind on 28% and Labour in their now-customary third place at 22%.

Support for independence is also slightly down, with the numbers at 43-57, but it’s some other findings that are the eye-openers.

Because to mark 20 years since the referendum which paved the way for devolution, the paper asked respondents for some opinions on how Holyrood had done, and the answers were pretty positive. When asked whether the existence of the Parliament had made things better or worse in a number of areas, the results were:

Better: 44%
Worse: 20%
About the same: 35%

Better: 37%
Worse: 26%
About the same: 37%

Better: 35%
Worse: 32%
About the same: 33%

Better: 49%
Worse: 13%
About the same: 38%

In every single field cited in the paper’s report, Scots felt that on balance having their own Parliament in Edinburgh had improved Scotland’s situation – and that despite a decade-long campaign from the entire media insisting that everything’s gone to Hell in a handbasket since the SNP’s election in 2007.

(Fittingly in that context, the ST’s front page chooses to distort the findings into the miserable and misleading headline “Devolution has been a dud, say most Scots”.)

But that last one also shows one of the weaknesses of opinion polling – that people will try to fit their existing ideology into an answer even when it makes no sense at all. For good or ill, the idea that devolution has given Scots LESS say in the running of their own country is self-evidently idiotic, yet 13% of respondents were willing to say it anyway, presumably because it was the nearest thing to “SNP BAD” available.

And even more than that went a bit further. When voters were asked for their preferred constitutional arrangement, independence trailed devolution by just five points – 38% to 43%. But 19% – the highest number ever recorded, by a big margin – wanted Holyrood abolished and a return to complete London rule. (An option that’s had single-figure support as long as we can remember.)

There’s no doubt that the last few years have made some Unionists increasingly bitter and hardcore. But it appears that for growing numbers – inflamed by toxic sectarian rhetoric from the Tories, and a relentless onslaught of sour negativity from Labour and the press – that hatred is beginning to overcome reason entirely.

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  1. 10 09 17 08:56

    Stopping making sense | speymouth

  2. 12 09 17 18:43

    Holyrood To Be Shut Down? | An Independent Scotsman

225 to “Stopping making sense”

  1. Marcia says:

    In spite of the anti-independence campaign being waged by the No side for some time now the support for Independence is within the margin of error. The voters are really only seeing anti-independence propaganda the Yes side hasn’t got going yet.

  2. Ewen Cameron says:

    Clearly a case of “Don’t worry about Government”.

  3. ewen says:

    Clearly a case of “Don’t worry about the Government.”

  4. Janet says:

    Indeed, opinion polling is generally flawed.

    Time now for the hiatus to end. Are we ever going to do this? By September next year, we’ll know pretty well what kind of brexitshambles we are going to get.

  5. Snode1965 says:

    You cannot ignore the fact that the British Establishment are encouraging the loyalists, through their politicians and media.
    Only this week, a newly formed Loyalist Party knocked the SNP into third in the Fortissat by-election.
    OK the Fortissat Ward is North Lanarkshires equivalent of Larkhall, but it is still a real concern.

  6. Muscleguy says:

    Of course if a unionist majority, please No, took power in Holyrood those 19% would reduce mightily. They only don’t like Holyrood now because Yes are unassailable.

    They must also be of the persuasion who will deride the improvements in society and the economy and the good things announced for this session of parliament. The ones in whom the cringe is deep.

    Talking of which, does anyone know the comparative traffic figures for the Queensferry Crossing vs the FRB? Something is wrong there, the queues are atrocious. Traffic Scotland gives ‘a reduction to two lanes’ as the reason as though there have or are any more. It’s a nonsense.

    So either, as my wife thinks, they got the on ramps very wrong or traffic numbers are significantly up with people trying out the new engineering marvel.

  7. Wulls says:

    “Hatred beginning to overcome reason”. That one sentence Simms up the whole yoon thing for me. They would willingly sacrifice all that really matters to have their narrow, bigoted, insular views pushed to the fore.
    Sad really. It indicates a dumbing down of the whole species.

  8. Ken500 says:

    Never trust the Polls. Especially in tight margins. Manipulated. The ‘piper pays the tune’. Totally discredited in most cases, Dangerous Industry breaks regulations to make ‘loads and loads of money’ . Greedy and manipulation. Gerrymandering and non regulated. Just a bunch of often political publically motivated criminals. They have no shame and no apology. The richest get richer. The poorer get poorer. No shame or harmony. Create collusuon and inequality. No cohesion or creativity.

    Public polls should be banned in the Purdah period. Month before any election/Ref, They are used for financial gain. (often with wasted) public money) to manipulate the result. Fraudsters one and all. Some talented people like Rev Stu get it right. By correctly analysing the data. Very few do.

    The usual result of the duplicity and fraud, A useless investigation, Cover up. All regulations broken. A pittance fine. Electoral fraud and gerrymandering is supposed to be dealt with by charges and prison term. That does not happen. Political fraud just gets away with it. No deterrent,

    Polls are good for a laugh. A joke. Dangerous manipulation in a democracy by the political class. To reinforce their privilege. Other ways no affect at all. Bad, poor unregulated – analysis, Especially in marginal consideration, The bookies laughing all the way to the bank. Leaked insider information. Bribery and cirruotion is rife, Do not touch with a barge poll. Buyer beware. BBCMSM experts who always get it wrong, for loads and loads of money. An exploitive industry.

  9. Malky says:

    I doubt many others would allow themselves the honest luxury of extrapolating from that 19% figure that Scottish unionists are become even more entrenched and bilious. However, it is true, of course.

  10. Ken500 says:

    Embittered nasty, ignorant greedy little men. Clinging to the past. About sums it up. They can’t go on forever.

    Criminal liars Cameron/Clegg illegally put the robocops in. To smash up the Guardian mailshop and threaten the Editor with prison. To cover up their lies. To try and control MSM. The Editor was replaced. It has been down hill ever since for the Guardian. Typing itself out of existence. Along with the rest of the MSM. Now criminal Murdoch SKy trying to further take over the MSM. The enemy of the people. A tax evading non Dom. The power is in the people’s hands. Get rid of lying SKy. There are plenty of alternatives. .

  11. Brian Powell says:

    Weird, how do they know ‘it is about the same’?

  12. Giving Goose says:

    Actually I feel very positive today.
    I looked at a thread on Facebook about an Evening Times story re the Clyde workers sold out around the Frigate story, i.e. the boats are not all going to be built on the Clyde as promised.

    What struck me were the comments from Yes supporters. There is simply a complete uncoupling from the Scottish cringe on display. Yessers are showing the freedom and self belief to call out topics for what they are. The UK is a basket case, No supporters believed a pack of lies etc.

    Now 20 years ago (admittedly Social Media wasn’t around) that would not have happened. So what devolution has achieved is for Scottish self belief and awareness to build. Great stuff!

    Unionists are bitter and angry, in part, because they witness a part of the population displaying courage, while No supporters lack it (and those No supporters are self aware of their own lack of courage) and this adds to their bitterness.

    I’m a great believer in identity politics, it’s simple human nature. Society in Scotland is now gravitating around Scots (self belief, courage, aspiration) and those who do not see themselves as Scots (no self belief, cowardness, no aspiration, and clinging to what is actually an English identity).

  13. galamcennalath says:

    Those results have to be considered against a background of years of relentless anti Scotland / anti SNP / anti Scottish Parliament / anti Indy campaigns. And, by contrast, ‘peacetime’ politcies based campaigning from the SNP and Greens.

    Imagine what will happen when that pro Union propaganda begins to be matched by Indy campaigning?

    When we have due cause to call IndyRef2 and the Indy engines fire up, we are still in a very strong position to begin with.

    The 19% is very interesting. The poll will presumably have the usual +/- 3% error margins. A figure of 20% or just over recurs time and time again in surveys, opinion polls etc..

    That is the figure for the “bitter and hard core” blood and soil British nationalists. Those people just don’t want to recognise Scotland’s existence beyond tartan, shortbread, and grouse moor.

    I always find that heartening because IMO it means the other 80% are potential YES voters if the case of Indy is overwhelming persuasive when at the same time the Union looks the risky option.

  14. One_Scot says:

    Just saw this on twitter, enough to make you sick,

    Clearly the BetterTogether team are trying to damage the SNP through the councils.

    I would honestly be surprised if there was a more F’cked up country anywhere in the world.

  15. Sunniva says:

    I was thinking about this the other day, about the bold new Programme for Government and its positive action, and thinking that at last the SNP seemed to be prepared to do more than simply micromanage the budget sent by Westminster. I think the Yes movement has to send out the message that Scotland is a progressive resource rich country bent on delivering greater opportunity and equality for its citizens, with exciting policy options, that this is normal, (that all of us matter and have worth) and that if we project positivity and self-confidence, it will become obvious to even the most stubborn unionist that the union is a negative backward looking institution which is holding back Scotland’s progress and no longer provides the security or opportunity it used to (i.e. when we had the empire). On the contrary membership of the UK is actually threatening Scotland (Brexit). The unionists will become a hard core backward looking minority.

  16. galamcennalath says:

    Giving Goose says:

    Unionists …. clinging to what is actually an English identity

    I tend to agree with that. Britain and British are and should be no more than geographical terms.

    Scottish Unionists actually support a Greater England. Many/most English folks are aware of the true reality. Take Corbyn’s recent utterance, “Nations and regions of England”. That wasn’t a slip of the tongue, that’s the way the Southern ruling class think.

    Scottish Unionists go along with that construct but cover their shame by adopting a false Britain/British label.

  17. wull2 says:

    The game just started with A50, most people just see the last move, they don’t see the pieces that were put in place a few months ago to block a move. Lets spoil the game and expose why the other side did want us to know why that move was made.
    I think the game will last about 1 year, and will end with INDY.

  18. Sunniva says:

    Giving goose. Yes I feel positive too, oddly, after feeling anxious all summer about the state of affairs. Perhaps it’s just returning from Norway where the government message is that everyone has worth and the right to a safe, secure home, and to fulfill their potential. But I see the Scottish Government under the SNP behaving like a progressive social democratic Nordic country and it starting to rub off on Scots that they are actually worthy people and that their government actually cares and believes in them.

    Just read that Douglas Ross has refused to meet with a Holyrood racial equalities committee re his recent comments on travellers, and not given any reason. This, after all the apologetic hoo hah Davidson put out about him getting diversity training, and the media putting her on constant loop about it.

    It really shows up Ross for what he is, a nasty, regressive and mean spirited man. This is the colour of unionism in Scotland.

  19. Lennie says:

    lol @ “…presumably because it was the nearest thing to “SNP BAD” available.”

    @ Snode1965 indeed, you only have to look at the tweets from the unelected Murdo Fraser MSP who clearly tries to endear himself with the flute tooting gorillas within Scotland for evidence of such.

  20. Sunniva says:

    Snode. Is the Orange Order not big in North Lanarkshire? Are they behind the Fortissat result?

  21. Ken500 says:

    Now the case get Labour out of the way. Now irrelevant. A straight fight with the Tories. The SNP will win. FFA/Independence, Scotland has bever been in better shape and been in a better place. Independence in the EU or as near to it. To complete the journey. Roll on.

  22. Capella says:

    Listened to the newspaper review on R Scotland today. They discussed this poll (Anna Burnside and Murray Pittock were two guests – sorry can’t recall the third), picking their words very carefully. But they did sound genuinely shocked that the percentage who wanted “Rule from London” is up to 19% when it was previously around 4%.

    Perhaps there is a higher than normal percentage of English born respondents in the Panelbase poll? Or more old people? Or Tories?

    But hardcore tractorism at only 20% is something I could live with. It won’t be for long after all. Imagine polling Danes or Dutch and finding that 20% wanted to be ruled by Berlin – or Irish with 20% wanting to be ruled by London. Impossible.

  23. Cloggins says:

    From this side it looks like a massive and coordinated campaign against independence, brought on by a cross party alliance of unionists. Take 60 million Englanders and 2.1/2 million britscots against 3 million independence fans, and you see where the campaign money comes from, the hatred, the foul play, the lies and distortions.
    Never mind public opinion, it isn’t where this battle is being fought. It comes from the corridors of power, plush bankers offices, editorial offices, restaurant tables and race courses. Nothing to do with people at all.

  24. Hamish100 says:

    In the next independence referendum the Tories will try and stop EU citizens voting. Should they try that tack- and they will then we should be clear that Welsh Irish Gibraltarians, and English are also prevented from voting.

    Personally I would wish all can vote providing they have at least 3-5 years residency in this country.

    This may reduce the effect of some university’s canvassing in particular the RUK student vote from participating. Last time in 2014 many No student voters were of that background and then returned to their mother country on the full knowledge that they don’t give a shit about Scotland.

  25. Iain MacGillivray says:

    The worrying trend is this creep of “close it”, that is what they are after..Someone should have a poll on bedroom tax, tuition fees, prescriptions etc, and see what percentage want to pay for these things..that would be very interesting.

  26. JLT says:

    Very interesting article, Rev.

    One point, you mention – But that last one also shows one of the weaknesses of opinion polling – that people will try to fit their existing ideology into an answer even when it makes no sense at all.

    In one sense, this is true, people will always have an opinion on something, whether they believe something to be for the better or not. Usually, those of a more reserved nature tend to shrug their shoulders or grumble about some fault, but know at the same time …it could be worse! And yet, it will seem the person is not happy with their lot in life. As you say, opinion polls don’t truly reflect a person’s real feelings. Opinion polls can tend to show an answer as either black or white, and not the really grey areas when it comes to a single individuals opinion.

    But also, as you have highlighted since time immemorial, newspapers will also print headlines to suit their own agenda, and we all know what side of the political divide this London rag falls on. Therefore, it would not surprise me in the least that because 13% think Holyrood is the worst thing to happen since well …probably Hitler, that the paper decides to endorse the headline of ‘Devolution has been a dud, say most Scots‘. And as we can all see, that is just absolute nonsense.

    To be honest, your article actually gives me great heart, for taking the ‘Better’ and ‘About the same’ figures and tallying them together, for it shows really, that Scotland is in a fairly good place with itself psychologically, and therefore, pretty much trounces the ‘Worse’ column and that of The Sunday Times agenda.

    Overall, The Sunday Times headline is just another example of ‘SNP Baaad’ and the usual perception that the Scots can’t run things by themselves (and yet, we ran the greatest empire that was ever created, and the English people happily allowed us to do it – so, here we have a case of go figure?!?). Here we have an article that spouts the idea that the Scottish nation is being badly run, and yet, it seems that the opposite is true. Typical Unionist headline and hidden agenda.

    Still …a great wee article for a Sunday morning.

  27. David Smyth says:

    Hard core unionists have become an enigma way beyond the factual evidence at their fingertips.

    OK – so let’s imagine a Hard Brexit. Prices go through the roof and wages won’t keep up (started already). Presumably these unionists will look toward Parliament for answers? Try again. This incumbent lot believe in survival of the fittest; down to your last penny.

  28. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    The “Hatred beginning to overcome reason” group are the BritNats.

    Hardcore, bitter and twisted in their hatred of the ESSENNPEE, furriners, cafflics and those of independent mind.

    They would live in squalor as long as they could wave the Union Flag, sing GSTQ and reminisce about The Empire and WWII.

    They have been raised to believe that the English are superior and Scots are inferior so they say they are British.

    They are the wannabe English but not Scottish, definitely never Scottish.

    It is the nationality equivalent of the class system.

    Another Establishment divide and rule tool.

  29. Ken500 says:

    Things are moving so fast. Out of date polling? Correspondence.

  30. heedtracker says:

    But 19% – the highest number ever recorded, by a big margin – wanted Holyrood abolished and a return to complete London rule. (An option that’s had single-figure support as long as we can remember.)

    It makes a lot of sense though, to answer yes scrap Holyrood, if all you ever see, read, hear from BBC Scotland alone, that Holyrood is a load of Scottish shite. Hour by hour, day by day, BBC Scotland alone will get Holyrood closed down.

    Mostly, English media in Scotland almost never ever mentions Holyrood. Broadsheet wise and as ever, it’s The Guardian tories that lead the Scottish democracy must curl up and die UKOK tory media stuff.

    Defeat is not inevitable but the UK propaganda war on Scottish democracy pouring out of all newsrooms is not going to ease off until we have an FM Anas or Colonel Ruth. Then we’re all fucked.

  31. Snode1965 says:

    Yes,the loyalist Cult are now highly motivated in their strongholds.
    Fortissat ward includes the former mining villages of Harthill, Eastfield and Dykehead…all of which are loyalist.
    Many of the former mining villages across Scotland fall into either side of the sectarian divide.
    They are fighting for the continued existence of their Union. They are vocal and angry because they know they are losing.

  32. Anne says:

    I saw this headline when I went to buy a paper this morning and am dismayed by the continuing onslaught against Scotland and our government. Of course, as pointed out here, the details of the survey are much more nuanced and indeed largely positive, but do these people who want rid of Holyrood really desire unfettered Westminster rule and all that it entails? I also noticed 3 union jacks (but no saltires) flying prominently here in Crail. There does seem to be a concerted campaign to push back against the independence movement, no doubt because brexitBritain would be much diminished without Scotland.

  33. yesindyref2 says:

    19% – the highest number ever recorded, by a big margin – wanted Holyrood abolished and a return to complete London rule.

    Yes, that’s what I thought (and posted a couple of weeks back), support for that option is higher than a long time (pre-devolution). I’ve seen it in postings.

    Not sure if it’s hard-core unionists though as such, the people I’ve seen posting along those lines hate the SNP, but seem also to despise the Scottish Tories and Labour.

    I think it’s disgust at all politicians. And I can understand where they’re coming from, I’m starting to feel the same.

    I don’t, however, think it translates neccessarily to a NO vote – people could vote YES to get Independence so that Scotland can move on from the “flaming” Constitutional issue – at least I think that’s the angle to take with them.

  34. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    the UK propaganda war on Scottish democracy pouring out of all newsrooms is not going to ease off until we have an FM Anas or Colonel Ruth

    Yup! That’s their plan. Get an anti Indy majority in the next Holyrood election and get Scotland so intergrated into Greater England that independence become virtually impossible.

    We have a window of opportunity and we much take it. It’s the next couple of years, or probably never.

  35. yesindyref2 says:

    Put it another way as well, what a lot of people see, I think, is two governments warring with each other and they’re sick to death of it. Abolishing Holyrood is the easy way to stop that, they think. The argument to use as well is that abolishing Westminster (Independence) achieves the same results – an end to the warring of two governments too busy shouting at each other to look after Scotland.

    I may be wrong, but it is worth analysing that 19%. Perhaps they don’t really see the whole thing as a YES or a NO, whereas of course, Indy supporters do, and Union supporters do too.

  36. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ JWT

    “They have been raised to believe that the English are superior and Scots are inferior so they say they are British.”

    You have described the mindset of the Brtish nationalist in Scotland in a nutshell. The use the term ‘British’ like some kind of camouflage jacket that helps them hide their deep inferiority complex of being Scottish. It’s why they parade around in quasi-military outfits, drums-a-drumming, flutes-a-peeping, projecting their own sense of superiority because ‘being British’ provides them with that false sense of themselves.

    They have yet to learn that being a British nationalist does not make them superior at all; it makes them fascist, racist, homophobic and xenonophobic; blood and soil ethnic nationalists. But the vast majority of them, I suspect, are too dim to realise the number the ‘British’ Establishment has pulled on them.

    Don’t think for yourself. Just Obey Your Queen.

    Aye right!

  37. Andy-B says:

    It’s good that Scots feel Holyrood, and in particular the SNP government are serving them well. It should put to bed once and for all, the too wee, too poor mantra, often aired by the opponents of a Scottish parliament.

    One could then add, if a majority of Scots are confident that Holyrood is doing a good job. Then surely those same Scots would feel confident enough to vote yes in a future indyref.

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    Another curious provocative thing I’m going to say, is that I’m not convinced there are as many NO voters as there used to be either. I think many of them fall into the category of being pig-sick of the whole thing, bored sh*tless.

  39. Ken500 says:

    The SNP/FFA/Independence are still winning. In every way shape or form. Any opposition are just regrouping. Never trust the Polls, Ever. Total manipulation. False, fake analysis by too many opportunists. Read through the lines and take with a pinch of salt or something stronger.

  40. Ken500 says:

    Not too sick of it, to constantly inconsistently quote/comment on the total sickness of it. Westminster/Union totally make the majority sick.

    The majority are totally engaged more than ever. They have to be because their their survival and existence depends on it. Higher than ever participation. Emancipation. More folk angry and annoyed because of it. Westminster/Tory intransigence. Will lead to their demise.

  41. Jock McDonnell says:

    Listening to Newsdrive on Friday, just before 6pm & they were covering this very topic.

    They had a well known Rangers fan & QC on, who reminded us that Holyrood was not a ‘sovereign’ parliament – no discussion on what difference that might make.

    Then they spoke with devo campaigner Nigel Smith who said he was ‘disappointed’ with the main parties & their achievements – and that was it – no inquiry as to why – or what could have been done better. I wondered if perhaps the interview was truncated.
    Would be nice if any wingers might be in a position to ask Nigel.

  42. Ken500 says:

    It is nothing about nationalism. It is about right and wrong. Equality, fairness and justice. Right before might. Right eventually triumphs against injustice. Too many fair minded people and communities. Reach out to each other. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote FFA/Independence. Simple really. Do not waver. Stand strong. The SNP standing up for Scotland. Best ever governance. Against all other opposition.

  43. liz says:

    We’re still struggling to get the vote out as can be seen from the 2 LA by elections last week- complacency??

    There are still too many SLAB till they die.
    Was speaking to a SLAB supporter this week, delighted with JC.

    Talking about new blood in SALB different from before etc etc and mention someone called Lennon who has been chosen to stand as a candidate in Rutherglen, sister of the bold Monica – aye very different!

    They were also moaning about Brexit which only won because of the lies told and point blank refused to believe lies were told to win the indy ref.

    This blind stupidity is what we’re up against

  44. ClanDonald says:

    The Tories are desperate to create the narrative that we don’t want devolution so that they can get away with the Brexit power grab that they need to create their “UK single market” in order to negotiate our resources away as part of their Trump-trade deal with the USA.

    If SLab want to hold on to the Scottish Parliament and devolution, they’d better start standing up for it and stop the constant attacks on and lies about the NHS, education, trains, police etc, although, to be honest, I think they probably prefer the idea of the Tories selling it all off to Trump rather than it being run competently by the SNP.

    If SLab were of any value to Scotland they’d be campaigning furiously right now to defend the Scottish Parliament and what it’s achieved, they’d be telling us all how much better off our services up here are compared to down south.

    But they aren’t and they won’t. All they care about is destroying the independence movement and if that means standing back while the Tories take control of our powers then that’s what they’ll do.

  45. heedtracker says:

    galamcennalath says:
    10 September, 2017 at 11:11 am
    heedtracker says

    We have a window of opportunity and we much take it. It’s the next couple of years, or probably never.

    Its pretty tight out here though. Sunday Times is only for down those leafy drives, of the greater English proud Scot but zone. But Brexit’s going to make us all poorer, including middle and upper middle class Scotland. The skint will get it first but it will come for the wealth too.

    Neo fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal were chuntering on about Brexidus from Aberdeen now for example. Its not great timing considering there’s an explosion of green belt chicken coop housing estates going up all round Aberdeen.

    If you try The Guardian’s front page search engine for example, for “Holyrood,” it produces maybe six hits a year, Graun reportage Holyrood wise and they range from nothing much at all, to even less, except that its bad, v v bad.

    Keeping everyone in the dark about Holyrood aside, tory coverage like Graun’s will jump up though, when FM Anas takes SLab back to the rightful ownership of their Scotland region.

    They’re only hacks, thousands and thousands of tory hacks, all praying to the great tory media god, uncle Rupert, for that BBC job.

    Right now BBC r4 is flooded with a torrential downpour of USA storm news, brought to us by BBC Scotland’s Laura Bicker and James Cooke, both highly prominent beeb Scotland going after ref1 2014, both now in top beeb jobs. Tasty.

  46. Ken500 says:

    19% is par for the course. Not a majority in any shape or form. Never will be. Losing support in the UK. Tanking. Back to 30 years in the wilderness.

  47. Ken500 says:

    Labour complaining about early death. Voted against minimum pricing. Voted through in 2012. Prevented by the Tory Whisky association who pay no taxes on vast profits. Still two to five months before a final/outcome. More higher early deaths because of Westminster intransigence.

  48. yesindyref2 says:

    An angle with those sick of the whole thing is to say, well, even if it’s a NO this time it’s not going away, it’ll be going on for the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, neverendum.

    Why not just get it all out of the way this time, for good and all? And move one, get on with our lives.

  49. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Giving Goose
    I think some of the bitterness comes from them being wrong and solid Holyrood governance on Health or Education just rubs that in. They are conflicted, all they have ever believed in is slowly contrasted with the good progress of their hated opponents and they can’t stand it.

    I’m one of those who believe voters will only really vote for positive change when its obvious that the current circumstances are failing miserably. People are feart of too much change. They will vote for Independence when its a much less painful option that staying in the union. Its up to us to keep highlighting the failures of union.

  50. Karmanaut says:

    The loudest voices in Unionism seem to be coming from the hard-right at the moment. I guess the media are increasingly feeding this, as the SNP opposition promotes sectarianism and is now more openly bigoted.

    I’m seeing flags (Union Jack, Orange Order, Ulster loyalist type stuff) going up in Lanarkshire and in the central belt. It feels like there’s a growing confidence.

    Also the propaganda seems to have noticeably ramped-up (the BBC is now broadcasting “the opposition say the SNP might do this bad thing”, but wording it so it gives the impression “the SNP are doing this bad thing”).

    While the Herald and Scotsman (OMG, the comments section!) are full-on fleg waving spittle-flecked British nationalism. The hatred can be quite overwhelming.

    The anti-independence side does appear to be crystallising, while the pro-independence side feels like it’s holding its breath, waiting.

  51. Street Andrew says:

    Devolution as a dud is a strange assertion capable of ambiguous interpretation. For a lot of Scots devolution HAS been a dud because it has not done nearly enough to untie the chains of WM policy.

    Conclusion 1: scrap devolution in favour of full independence.

    Conclusion 2: don’t give a toss.

    Conclusion 3: revert to central government from WM.

    The quoted poll doesn’t show much evidence of support for the latter position.

    As a side point; don’t assume that because a person is English born that makes them supportive of the union. Some are only too glad to be out of England and with a prospect of being free of WM rule. Indyref2 should perhaps be extended to some of the Northern counties of England which will also be well beyond the terminal buffers of HS2.

    It speaks volumes for the metropolitan mindset that Birmingham is considered to be in the North. Manchester is well into the country where ‘there be dragons’.

    If WM was serious about the UK being a union of some sort HS2’s destination would be at least Aberdeen, via Glasgow and Edinburgh. Birmingham FFS is only just off the end of the Bakerloo Line.

  52. Tatu3 says:

    When Mrs Sturgeon made her speech on 13 March earlier this year it was so moving I cried. I thought this is it. When she set out her programme for the future last week I was impressed and pleased. It sounded to me that she was showing us and the rest of Europe that we could be an Independent country. I wondered even, when she has had her one to one talks with various leaders of other European countries they have hinted that this is what she should do.

    But no matter how positive the programme is, it is a programme for Scotland as part of the UK. What happens to most of the plans once Brexit is for real and we are still part of the UK? Can they still work?

    I would now like to hear a speech from Mrs Sturgeon outlining a programme for government were we Independent. Having our own currency, taking charge of our resources and using the revenue to good use for the people of Scotland. Then compare the two – one in a Brexit uk, against an Independent Scotland.

    That would be a positive sign.

  53. heedtracker says:

    As beeb Scotland attack propagandists like Laura and whatisface are richly rewarded for their loyalty to the UK, this is their UK, what we were better together being run by.

  54. Ken500 says:

    It’s not Mrs Sturgeon. It’s Ms Sturgeon. Or Nicola brilliant FM.

  55. Kelpie says:

    Could that 19% be hard-line brexiteers, worried that the Scottish Government is going to get their wish and find some way to keep EU membership, or some compromise version?

    In which case ditching Holyrood and snuggling up to Westminster would make sense for them, as things currently stand.

  56. Ken500 says:

    Blair the warmongering, killing and maiming millions of innocent people. The psycho caused all this. Now trying to make a false,fast buck out of it. Criminal liar. He should be in jail. Just make folk more annoyed and angry.

  57. heedtracker says:

    Street Andrew says:
    10 September, 2017 at 12:20 pm
    Devolution as a dud is a strange assertion capable of ambiguous interpretation.

    Hello Colin Alexander, how’s it hanging today dude?

  58. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I wouldn’t worry at all about the supposed 19% who want to return to “direct rule”. These will be the eejits who split the Tory vote and gave that ward to the Labour party on Thursday.

  59. galamcennalath says:

    Karmanaut says:

    The anti-independence side does appear to be crystallising, while the pro-independence side feels like it’s holding its breath, waiting.

    Yup, that’s the way I see things right now.

    I honestly feel we are sitting with a steady foundation waiting for … just one more big push.

    In the middle there is a big chunk of Scots who in 2014 felt the time just wasn’t right, the Indy arguments weren’t persuasive on currency and EU etc, and the NO side were making extensive offers they would completely renege on. Next time will be quite different because UKnotsoOK will be the risky option.

    And pro Union planners and activists almost certainly see things this way too!

  60. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Tatu3 at 12.25

    The point is that she is presently First Minister ruling a devolved Scotland and her programme for government has to be about that responsibility.

    What you want is the detail of an independence campaign which is a different matter. We are all waiting for that.

  61. Tinto Chiel says:

    The illogical hardening of anti-Hollyrood attitudes you point out, Rev, is only going to get worse. Desperate people who see their strange wee world crumbling away tend to do desperate things.

    Proud Cybernat @11.18: so many excellent comments this morning but yours summed up the madness of Britnattery very succinctly.

    However, in the interests of accuracy, I humbly suggest, given the dimness you refer to, it should actually be “Obay ur qwene.”


  62. Cuilean says:

    Read the following excerpt from Malcolm X’s speech to Michigan State University, in January 1963 BUT replace Malcolm X’s phrase ‘the house negro’ with ‘Scottish No Voter’; ‘the field negro’ with ‘Scottish Yes Voter’ and ‘slavery’ with ‘United Kingdom,’ and, like me, see if you see the startling sociological and psychological dynamics running along parallel lines:

    “… during slavery you had two Negroes. You had the house Negro and the field Negro.

    The house Negro usually lived close to his master. He dressed like his master. He wore his master’s second-hand clothes. He ate food that his master left on the table. And he lived in his master’s house; probably in the basement or the atti; but he still lived in the master’s house.

    So whenever that house Negro identified himself, he always identified himself in the same sense that his master identified himself.

    When his master said, “We have good food,” the house Negro would say, “Yes, we have plenty of good food.” “We” have plenty of good food.

    When the master said that “we have a fine home here,” the house Negro said, “Yes, we have a fine home here.”

    When the master would be sick, the house Negro identified himself so much with his master he’d say, “What’s the matter boss, we sick?” His master’s pain was his pain. And it hurt him more for his master to be sick than for him to be sick himself.

    When the house started burning down, that type of Negro would fight harder to put the master’s house out, than the master himself would.

    But then you had another Negro out in the field.

    When the master got sick, they prayed that he’d die. [Laughter]

    If his house caught on fire, they’d pray for a wind to come along and fan the breeze.

    If someone came to the house Negro and said, “Let’s go, let’s separate,” naturally that ‘Uncle Tom’ would say, “Go where? What could I do without boss? Where would I live? How would I dress? Who would look out for me?” That’s the house Negro.

    But if you went to the field Negro and said, “Let’s go, let’s separate,” he wouldn’t even ask you where or how. He’d say, “Yes, let’s go.” And that one ended right there.

    So now you have a twentieth-century-type of house Negro. A twentieth-century Uncle Tom. He’s just as much an Uncle Tom today as Uncle Tom was 100 and 200 years ago.

    Only he’s a modern Uncle Tom. That Uncle Tom wore a handkerchief around his head. This Uncle Tom wears a top hat. He’s sharp. He dresses just like you do. He speaks the same phraseology, the same language. He tries to speak it better than you do. He speaks with the same accents, same diction.

    And when you say, “your army,” he says, “our army.” He hasn’t got anybody to defend him, but anytime you say “we” he says “we.”

    “Our president,” “our government,” “our Senate,” “our congressmen,” “our this and our that.” And he hasn’t even got a seat in that “our” even at the end of the line.

    So this is the twentieth-century Negro. Whenever you say “you,” the personal pronoun in the singular or in the plural, he uses it right along with you. When you say you’re in trouble, he says, “Yes, we’re in trouble.”

    But there’s another kind of Black man on the scene. If you say you’re in trouble, he says, “Yes, you’re in trouble.” [Laughter] He doesn’t identify himself with your plight whatsoever.”

    End of Malcolm X Extract.

    Since 2014, I have been wondering why so may countrymen voted NO to independence. Now, using this simple analogy, from admittedly another time and another place, I think I understand No voters better.

    They are Malcolm X’s ‘house negroes’; whilst I am a ‘field negro’.

  63. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jockanese Wind Talker says: 10 September, 2017 at 10:44 am:

    ” … they say they are British.
    They are the wannabe English but not Scottish, definitely never Scottish.”

    Historically they do not really know who they are. They are factually the products of the Kingdom of England’s long series of, “Plantation”, of people, initially from Wales and England, and only later from Scotland into Ireland.

    The implantation of people into the island of Ireland from the British Mainland began at least as early as 1169 with the Norman Conquest of Ireland. Dermot MacMurrough, the exiled king of Leinster, sought help from Richard Fitzgilbert de Clare, (known as, “Strongbow”). Strongbow was a Norman Lord who came from England to Ireland.

    Diarmaid Mac Murchadha. was the King of Leinster who fled to mainland Britain because he had backed the losing contender for the high kingship of Ireland. The Normans set up what is referred to in Ireland as, “The Ascendancy”. Ex-UK Chancellor George Osbourne is heir apparent to two ancient Ascendancy Baronetcies.

    So these Orange Order goons are the products of Irish Protestants and followers of King Billy, and not necessarily only of Scottish descent, who emigrated from Ireland when there was hard times in Ireland and – not just during the Irish Potato Famine.

    They thus could be genetically Welsh, English Scottish, Native Irish or any mixture thereof.

    Incidentally the USA derogatory term, “Hillbilly”, is derived from those USA immigrants from Ireland who made their way to the USA, usually via Glasgow’s Broomilaw, and the Orange Order in Scotland are those who did not, or could not, continue on their way to, “The New World”. They are all in fact of indeterminate origins.

    Their self-taught history is even more wildly inaccurate than that of native born Scots.

    For example they believe that King Billy rode a white Charger as so often depicted on their insignia. However Billy rode a brown horse and furthermore the depiction of him with his sword outstretched charging over the Boyne was impossible.

    The King had been hit the day before by a cannonball and had his arm in a sling. He thus would required his one uninjured arm to control the brown horse. Let me also put it this way.

    If you were a King, leading an army across a river to attack the enemy, would you choose to ride a white horse that would stand out among the charging army as a great target?

    So, perhaps the bitterness we see towards all things Scottish is because these people do not really know who or what the are and it may not be Scots to Ireland then Irish of Scots decent back to Scotland.

  64. Calum McKay says:

    A scorched earth policy is being enacted by the uk establishment through their tools, the unionist parties including uk government, supported by the bbc and press.

    As has been said over and over, the Yes movement needs to be re-instated and the SNP need to combat the reporting of news more proactively and aggressively.

  65. Snode1965 says:

    Robert Peffers…
    Their loyalty lies with the English Monarch.

  66. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sometimes it is hard to be rational in an increasingly irrational Scotland. Ideology and reason generally don’t mix.

    “If I am what I have and if I lose what I have who then am I?” –
    Erich Fromm

    “The danger of the past was that men became slaves. The danger of the future is that men may become robots.” – Erich Fromm

    “Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.” – Erich Fromm

  67. Tatu3 says:

    Apologies o/T, but still interesting

  68. David says:

    Why does Scotland always uses the ‘system’ in place – Unionist owned polls, Westminster accounting (e.g. for Scottish exports out of English ports)

    Why does Scotland not create it’s own ‘system’ so that there is more transparency and a truer way of collating and understanding the figures which so many arguments are based on.

    Setting this in place may well cause a stooshie but by doing so it also calls into question how biased things are currently.

    Each and every part of where people are getting their information should
    be called into question and who is behind it revealed.

  69. heedtracker says:

    “Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.” – Erich Fromm

    The Vow was certainty:D

    The Vow 2.0 will also be very certain.

    Certainly sweet FA, again. Say what you like about Gordon Brown, Cameron, Teresa, Flipper Darling, BBC Scotland, Blair…all the tory yoons red and blue, are the most shameless liars in the world today.

  70. FTDMail says:

    Home Rule will be quite literally over my dead body.

  71. Camz says:

    The 19% are made up of uber-unionists. The type that would be for the closing of Stormont, direct rule etc.

    I would seriously question the sampling, and analyse the political voting intention of said 19%. Polarisation is one thing, but Brexit has pushed many right wingers round to the extreme end.

  72. Cuilean says:

    ‘Uncle Tom syndrome’ is a concept in psychology. It refers to a coping skill where individuals use passivity and submissiveness when confronted with a threat, leading to subservient behaviour and appeasement.

    Especially during slavery, blacks used passivity and servility for the avoidance of retaliation and for self-preservation.

    In a broader context, the term may refer to a minority’s strategy of coping with oppression from socially, culturally or economically dominant groups, involving suppression of aggressive feelings and even identification with the oppressor, leading to “forced assimilation/acculturation” of the cultural minority.

  73. heedtracker says:

    “The danger of the past was that men became slaves. The danger of the future is that men may become robots.” – Erich Fromm

    This probably isn’t what he means Cameron but gaze in awe, as a very famous English actor lies to the Americans about the plucky Brits, as far back as Henry V.

    Its probably beyond the scope of prime US tv chat show hosts to point out to Branah, that there was no Britain or Brits, either in existence or with Henry V, at Agincourt, 1445. Deep, profound, creative liars, not from ignorance either.

  74. galamcennalath says:


    ” Uncle Tam
    A Scotsman who will do anything to stay in good standing with “the English man” including betray his own people”

    …. indeed. 🙂

  75. mike d says:

    Cuilean 12.47 pm. A brilliant analogy

  76. Capella says:

    Before 2014 the percentage of Tory voters in Scotland was consistently around 14%, sometimes 18%. Looks like it might be 19% now with a margin of error.

    Labour and Liberal voters inflate the Tory vote with their “tactical” voting at elections.

    Unionists are trying to float a meme that Scots are tired of Holyrood and just want London rule. Just as we were tired of referendums.

    What I’m really sick and tired of is the never ending whine of the BREXIT fiasco. If we were already independent we would be free of all that, and every other boring Westminster preoccupation.

  77. Macart says:

    A decade-long media campaign.

    Wonder if they’ve entirely thought their strategy through? I’m guessing no.

  78. Robert Thomas says:

    The question I would like any Unionist to answer most is:

    Why, of all the countries in the world, is Scotland the only one deemed incapable of running its own Government, democratically elected by its own people?

    There are many countries smaller, poorer and less well educated in the world and they seem to manage to run their own affairs without any need for a foreign country to do it for them.

    Why *must* we be ruled by Westminster?

  79. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T .

    BBC banner headlines.

    Hundreds of babies bodies found in a mass grave in Lanarkshire ..
    I had a phone call from my brother in Scarbourgh 10mins ago, anybody else seen this news item .

  80. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Not just the Local Authorities @One_Scot says at 9:20 am

    “Clearly the BetterTogether team are trying to damage the SNP through the councils.”

    Unionist Controlled SNHS Boards are doing the same thing.

    Westminster Unionist MPs cut Scotlands Budget.

    Holyrood Unionist MSPs demand the Scots Govt mitigates these cuts.

    Unionist Local Authorities cut services and blame the Scots Govt for these cuts.

    The Unionist Media profligate the EssEnnPee Baaaad, Scotland Sh*te Mantra hourly, daily, weekly.

    As per @heedtracker says at 10:55 am

    “UK propaganda war on Scottish democracy pouring out of all newsrooms is not going to ease off until we have an FM Anas or Colonel Ruth.”

    It is a war, this level of Media Spin, Lies and Propaganda is only ever seen during war time (when you are against the ropes and don’t want to panic the home front).

    It is ‘the Union at all costs’ and the electorate are just collateral damage, and that is a price the Unionists are willing to pay.

    It is a Soft Coup against the Democratically Elected Scots Govt.

  81. heedtracker says:

    Why *must* we be ruled by Westminster?

    Because they are proud Scots but, they are British and do not want to be anything else, at a guess.

    Also, they are terrified of actual economic change, and they are terrified out of their wits, every time they switch on their radios and tv’s by massed ranks of BBC Scotland attack propagandists, attacking everything Scotland, from Scottish national self confidence and identity, with their endless indoctrination, Scotland and Scots are too poor, small and stupid.

    Look at the Pacific Quay tory gimp network coverage of the Queensferry Bridge opening, for example.

  82. Legerwood says:

    ronnie anderson says:
    10 September, 2017 at 2:10 pm
    O/T .

    BBC banner headlines.

    Hundreds of babies bodies found in a mass grave in Lanarkshire ..
    I had a phone call from my brother in Scarbourgh 10mins ago, anybody else seen this news item .
    Yes. It is in the online edition of newspapers as well.

    Joint investigation by BBC R4 programme and Sunday post.

    It covers a period from the 1860s to 1980s when the home closed. The home was run by nuns.

  83. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T BBC banner news.

    Correction on my last post at 2.10 .

    Believed to be buried in mass grave in Lanarkshire . My Brother did say near a Smilies Home .

  84. heedtracker says:

    It is a Soft Coup against the Democratically Elected Scots Govt.

    Or just how it works in the UK.

    Tory media almost always get the UK gov they want. They got Thatcher in and kept her there. They kept Blair and Brown in office, until they had had enough of Brown, probably down the New Labour gov/Bush GOP total destruction of much of the middle east, world economy more or else destroyed by City spivs, all under Brown. It probably didn’t help the cause of the most unpopular British Prime Minister ever. Poor old Crash.

    BBC Scotland alone can’t do it though. They need tories like Sunday Times, or rancid hypocrites like the Graun tories and they have all the 400k+ BBC liggers, across this farce union.

    We just have to accept that FM Anas is coming, soon. Or we can hold ref2.

    Imagine, years and years of that whining ranting mad dentist from Glesga?

    Makes FM Colonel Ruth look almost appealing.

    At least with a ferocious tory neo fascist like Colonel Ruth in charge, we wont all be going, please please shut up you lying hypocrite red tory dentist:D

  85. Jack Murphy says:

    OT. Phantom Power Films on Twitter.September 8th. 1 minute VIDEO.

    Cronyism in Scottish Tories.

    Ruth Davidson is playing games with democracy in Scotland.

    Scotland now has two more unelected representatives.

    My response: Welcome to Davidson’s,Mundell’s and Theresa May’s precious UKOK Union of equal partners! 🙁

  86. Robert Peffers says:

    @Snode1965 says: 10 September, 2017 at 1:09 pm:

    “Their loyalty lies with the English Monarch:”

    Their loyalty lies with King Billy and he has been dead a very long time. Like their professed defence of Christian Protestantism. As most of them are usually absent from Kirk services then that loyalty remains a façade behind which the face of hate shines through the mask.

    It’s all claptrap and myth. Here’s another true fact most of them do not know:-

    The battle of the Boyne, (which, incidentally was not the defining victory of the campaign that they imagine), did not actually take place on the 12 day of July 1690. It took place on the 1st day of July 1690. Ironically this was due to Pope Gregory changing the then existing, Julian Calendar to what we now call the Gregorian Calendar.

    Furthermore, King Billy was not really the great persecutor of Roman Catholics they imagine he was. He did, after all. arrange for the deposed King James to escape the Tower of London to France. Billy had other, quite different motives.

  87. Ghillie says:

    Giving Goose @ 9.16 am and Sunniva, and JLT and gallamcennalath,

    Yes I feel positive too.

    Devolution and especially Indyref have given Scots the heart to stand up for themselves!

    Information, previously suppressed, is now available to refute the misinformation and negativity that abounds on all the media.

    The People of Scotland ARE waking up.

    The establishment, and all those who hang onto those coat tails in the hope of better scraps, are absolutely hating this.

    Hence they are shrieking ever louder anti Scottish bile.

    If they are that bothered then we are definitly getting it right =)

    Nicola Sturgeon speaks with the voice of the leader of an already Independent Scotland. I think alot of us do now too 🙂

  88. heedtracker says:

    Graun just the noo. Hope future Scottish FM Anas is listening, a filthy rich tory donor says he wants Blairite. gov back in action.

    If future Scottish FM Anas is anything, he sure is an “early Tony Blair-style administration” kind of dude.

    Theresa May is a “hopeless” leader of a “weak” government and Britain would be better off with an early Tony Blair-style administration, a leading Tory donor has said.

    May hails leadership of Geoffrey Boycott, who was axed over team revolt
    Read more
    Lord Harris of Peckham said the prime minister was “no Thatcher” and criticised her “shell-shocked” general election performance, in which the Tories disastrously lost their House of Commons majority from a position of apparent strength.

    In a scathing interview, the carpet store tycoon suggested May’s record as home secretary was not “that great”, described her attacks on aspects of capitalism and big business as “stupid”, and warned she was making a “mistake” by criticising excessive pay.

  89. Robert Graham says:

    My a busy joint today so many good observations being made , and without the usual pain in the arse making an appearance , YET .

    o/t a link on the previous thread posted by Petra – re Mervyn Kings interview on newsnight , and his references to project fear regarding the viability of an independent scotland , despite both the people in the programme being unionist in outlook , even they couldnt hide that their was no impediment to independence only people’s belief in themselves that it could happen .

    So more or less confirming the success of a project aimed to scare people into voting NO by lies and downright deceit .

    Well worth a view if Perta could possibly post the link again .

  90. Robert Peffers says: 10 September 2017 2:40

    The battle of the Boyne, (which, incidentally was not the defining victory of the campaign that they imagine), did not actually take place on the 12 day of July 1690. It took place on the 1st day of July 1690. Ironically this was due to Pope Gregory changing the then existing, Julian Calendar to what we now call the Gregorian Calendar.


    That’s the question I always ask orangemen why they celebrate BoB on the 12th when the battle actually took place on the 1st. Then I laugh when they don’t know, I don’t then tell them. Hope not too many read Wings.

  91. Kay Hamilton says:

    Positive vibes from nicola after the summer break….all for the positives, initiatives and policies promoting our well being are to be welcomed…however, not sure how much this actually shifts the deep rooted, mainly over 60s attitudes that wm and British rule is a superior entity, with Scotland being a subsided junky who is on its knees financially.. That’s the nub of the matter, they feel we can’t afford it, and too much turmoil to change the system..if brexit, removal of holyroods status and powers, diminishing living standards can’t or won’t change them within 2 -5 years, it’s game over..we’ve never had a better chance of dismantling the establishment as now when wm is being shown in a poor light in many areas and akin to a dictatorship…of course you have to tune I to rt to see the reality, not auntie beebs version of events…not easy to get the message out to the myopic and tunnel vision adherents….hope it’s a large turnout for indy Rally next weekend, helps to keep th faith….

  92. Ghillie says:

    Cuilean @ 12.47 pm Thank you.

    I always thought of No voters in terms of the Stockholm Syndrome. But your analogy may be closer.

    A very interesting extract from Malcolm X’s speech.

    I do see the comparisons you are making. Chilling. And sad.

    Sadly, I think I can see folk who think they are the ‘boss’ too. And for them our Independence will come as a nasty shock.

    But what a pleasant surprise Independence will be for even our ‘Uncle Tams’ =)

  93. wull2 says:

    Send a message to your Directors, Unions and Land owners, tell the truth now before it is too late, too many people can find out the facts online.
    Indy is coming, if not this time , next time, the YES movement is not going anywhere.

  94. Shinty says:

    Hence they are shrieking ever louder anti Scottish bile.

    Absolutely this.

    They’ve been at it ever since THEY won the vote.

    When you win something by dubious means you will always be looking over your shoulder. Whereas if you win with honesty and integrity you can hold your head high and be proud of your achievements.

  95. Dan Huil says:

    The 19% is just another sign of britnat desperation and extremism. Things are getting clearer. I take heart from it.

  96. heedtracker says:

    Phantom Power Films is also an eye opener when you have tory MEP candidate like Belinda Don, complaining about how undemocratic tory UK rule actually is.

    No doubt future FM Anas will sort it all out.

    On the day of SLab’s FM Anas triumph Scottish general election win, his first interview on world famous balanced and unbiased BBC Scotland goes,

    Jackie Bottox- congratulations on your incredible victory over the Nats, new Scottish FM Anas.

    Thank you Jackie.

    So tell us new Scottish FM Anas, what are the first things SLabour are going to do, to undo all the damage the SNP and the Nats have done to Scotland?

    Well Jackie, most top SLabour dudes end up in the Lords, its our thing, so I’ll be copying the fine British example of Aberdeen City Council and banning all Saltires from any Scots gov premises.

    Then, we’ll probably just fcuk about for a decade or so, piss away billions on shite like that Tram in Edinburgh, charge kids for their uni, like true Brits, they all should and ofcourse do everything in our legislative power to hand back all devo to Westminster.

    Because as you know Jackie, Holyrood is not a democracy in conventional sense, it’s a dictatorship, of one man, me:D

  97. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Many of the extremist OO type Unionists are similar to the poor trailer dwellers in the USA.

    Those folk vote Republican to stop a NHS being forced on them. They are also allowed to keep their guns.

    They may not afford health care or be able to feed themselves but they are allowed to hate folk and cuddle their guns.

    Basically uneducated poor souls just like the OO.

    As a great man never said “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups”

  98. galamcennalath says:

    Dan Huil says:

    The 19% is just another sign of britnat desperation and extremism. Things are getting clearer. I take heart from it.

    Indeed. Clear division into full Indy versus full on BritNattery is a good thing IMO.

    A lot of things have worked against Scottish independence. Devolution has helped us get where we are now, but since about the 5th Sept 2014 is has been an obstacle.

    At that point the middle ground of devolution and more importantly, the false promises of much more devolution, became a problem. For too many people there was a ‘best of both worlds’ solution which still seemed possible. Now, more and more surely see the real choice is binary between Indy versus WM excesses and misrule. The middle ground is all smoke and mirrors.

  99. Ken500 says:

    The Orange Order is losing members faster than a sieve loses water. Some people are brainwashed from the day they are born. Now becoming more enlightened. The authorities should be not supporting racism and bigotry with public money. The Police should be acting on complaint not discriminating.

    Instead of wasting public money on charges that can never come to court. Putting innocent people in cells over night. Costing £Millions. Arresting then investigating. Instead of investigating then possible arresting. For minor, malicious non complaint. Charges are then dropped. The wrong way round. Or just giving a minor warning. Involving solicitor and unnecessary expense. Or just giving a warning. That happened in the past. Instead of involving solicitor and unnecessary expense.

    Now building an incessant insatiable empire. Trying to criminalise the population for minor misdeanenor. Totally unneccessary. Police should have additional needs training. Police were Orange Lodge members and Masons. Now supposed to be non affiliated for impartiality and non discrimination. Recruitment should be more thorough.

    Why are the Police and the Military involved in very public displays of support for sporting clubs who evade UK tax and spread discrimination and bigotry? Instead of giving a warning or bringing charges. They are supposed to be impartial without fear or prejudice. Not the way they are behaving. Barristers with racist, bigot attributes getting £Millions in public money support and legal aid. Building an empire. Instead of being brought to book or debarred breaking the Oath to justice that allows them to practise. Sometimes people wonder who the criminals are. The elite not the paupers. Pay homage to the empire then criminally evade HMRC tax and get away with it.

  100. HandandShrimp says:

    It says something that two Labour leaning people like Murray Foote and Anna Burnside though the Times spin a tad embarrassing on the paper review this morning.

    I get the impression that the accusation of Fake News is beginning to get to some journalists and witnessing it in action is not likely to get much support. No idea who wrote the Times piece but it is an epic fail in their credibility. Please take a Fake News star and put it on your chart for the week.

  101. Tinto Chiel says:

    crazycat: not surprised you were ignored. That was just a box-ticking exercise, “listening to your concerns”. Some parts of Scotland get it worse than others, usually beautiful ones.

    In 1982 we were climbing Ben Hiant in Ardnamurchan and were subjected to a pants-pooping low-level “attack” by RAF Typhoons which shattered the beautiful atmosphere.

    We went back in autumn 2014 and had to endure higher-level buzzing at the point for two hours or so, almost spoiling the scenery.

    It’s The Union Dividend again.


  102. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tatu3 says: 10 September, 2017 at 1:19 pm:

    “Apologies o/T, but still interesting

    Interesting, perhaps, but many of us knew as they chanted their mantra that it was utter claptrap when they said it and we said as much at the time.

    Trouble was that no one believed us and the voters believed the ones preaching claptrap and many still do so.

    It was always a right wing plan to take from the poor and give to the rich and it wasn’t just the UK Tories who were doing the robbing for it began with Labour quite some time before them.

    What is more it was not done as a mistake but was cold blooded, planned and premeditated, murder of the most poor and most vulnerable members of society.

    How can we, “All be in this austerity together”, when the most rich in the United Kingdom have more than doubled their personal wealth while the old, sick and poor are homeless on the streets and dying prematurely of hunger, cold and neglect?

    Here’s a little something I came across again just a few days ago. I had began to replay the now old computer game, “Grand Theft Auto 5”. The game was launched on September 17, 2013. It has recently been re-launched to play on Windows 10 computers instead of needing a games console.

    The game play allows the player to interact with passing random characters by talking to them using common USA greetings such as, “What’s up with you”, (in UK English that translates as, “Hello! How are you”.). The random characters are programed to make one of several stock answers.

    One such stock answer is to the effect that the random character is, “Sick of hearing about this Austerity thing”.

    Now considering that the game was launched in early September of 2013 and had thus been in development considerably longer than that. Yet here was the Scottish team in Edinburgh that developed it having a fly dig at, “Austerity Measures”.

    If you know the game then you know it is based upon a parody of the Los Angeles Hollywood. Much of the game concerns the vast gap between the lives of the rich & famous and the poor and homeless.

    Not forgetting the self-cantered attitudes of the would-be rich and famous it is depicting the homeless living in traffic underpasses and the rich & famous living in their large mansions and exploiting the poor and the would-be rich.

  103. Tinto Chiel says:

    crazycat: sorry, wrong thread! Meant to be on the old one.

    Apologies to all.

  104. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 10 September, 2017 at 2:10 pm:

    “Hundreds of babies bodies found in a mass grave in Lanarkshire ..
    I had a phone call from my brother in Scarbourgh 10mins ago, anybody else seen this news item .”

    Yes Ronnie, the item was on the BBC text service in the very early hours. Apparently it concerns the orphan home run by, “The Little Sisters of the Poor”, a bunch of nuns of the RC church.

    To be fair to them they were caring for deprived children and had no funding from the state. I’m sure the story will be done to death by the MSM encouraged by the, now being regularised, RC haters of the OO by the Tory government.

  105. Robert Louis says:

    British = English. English = British. In all things and at all times. So it was for every single ‘British’ colony in history.

    Those Scots who call themselves ‘British’, are deluding themselves, and are an object of mockery by the REAL English elite. They grew up thinking that they too, from ‘sh*tey wee Scotland’ were part of the BIG country, ‘Britain’, and so they have gone through their lives, using every chance to decry Scotland, with not one shred of evidence to back up their assertions. They just ‘KNOW’ they are right, because it is ridiculous to think that the BBC and England have been lying to them. In their minds, such things ‘would never be allowed’.

    Most unionist Scots never truly question their belief system. They never truly question why it is, that Scotland, a prosperous, oil rich country, is continually portrayed as ‘rubbish’ and ‘poor’ by both the state broadcaster (the BBC), the English owned Newspapers and opinion leaders from England.

    They are the kind of folk who think all other countries broadcasters are biased, and spout Government propaganda, but quite, quite uniquely, the BBC is the one truly great, open honest broadcaster in the world – despite the fact its senior management is appointed by the Queen and the Prime Minister in London, and it is funded by the Westminster Government. They never ever give it any thought that successful propaganda, is only successful when it is not obvious to those subjected to it. So, they never question the fact that the BBC spends soooo much time telling them over and over again just how great, open and genuinely honest it is.

    My challenge to unionists reading this, would be to say, why not just do a wee check on some of the things you have been told or ‘believe’ about Scotland by the BBC and London serving politicians of all parties.

    You might like to start here;

    Or here;

    (The latter is a long read – it is a Westminster Government report (McCrone)), but well worth it. Once you read it, you will know from Westminster’s own report, that pretty much everything you have been told about Scotland’s oil is and was a lie.

  106. Petra says:

    @ Robert at 2:52pm ….. “Mervyn King video.”

    Robert I’ve tried to post the video on here three times now, to no avail!

    Having to go out, but I’ll try again later.

  107. Andy Anderson says:

    Our real issue is the SNP and other Indy organisations do not have the funds to fight this massive media assault on Scotland.

  108. Dr Jim says:

    Ah, polls and surveys eh
    In my street if you were to do one of these the result would be that the SNP should be taken out an hanged drawn and quartered then stuck up on poles for all to see….because it’s a retirement complex and computers are things for the young wans and we all read the Mail the Express and the Sunday post thank you very much, so we know the truth

    200 yards away in the next street most people would be ready to march through hell to defend the SNP and remove all Unionists immediately to the country they worship so much, Inglind

    I have neighbours who have no clue who’s in charge of what and who’s doing the other but they do know they hate Nicola Sturgeon with a vengeance because their newspapers tell them so, but they wouldn’t know David Davis or Michael Gove if they tripped over them on the way to the chemists to pick up their free prescription which as far as they’re concerned is awarded to them by the real government not the Edinburgh one because that’s where the money comes from because we’ve got no coal mines left or steel industry anymore

    I live in Bishopbriggs just outside Glasgow where Jo Swinson got back in where as opposed to excellent man and MP John Nicolson lost his seat, so that should give you an idea of the sort of sensible folk who live next to me…excepting all us Yessers of course

    BTW I’ve never been surveyed by anybody in my entire life, but strangely enough the SNP ASK me my opinions on things all the time

    One never hears of Unionists being asked anything, they’re usually told what their opinions are

    I suppose it saves them having to think though

  109. Ealasaid says:

    As Brexit proceeds some previous No voters may want to look again at the Independence option. During IndyRef1 the information website set up by the official Yes campaign was not good at all for information, and I know of many people that were put off by it.

    Would it not be possible for the techie knowledgable to now set up a new Independence information website. I would see it as an easy to use, one stop shop, read only (to stop trolls), and not attached to any political party and their policies.

    It would provide links under topics like currency, economy, pensions, oil, green energy, Europe etc. etc. on options of how things could be and things that could be done differently under independence. It would not sell policies but possibilities for a future independent Scotland. Also misinformation given in the MSM could be tackled and corrected.

    The information would be given as much as possible by links to highly regarded independent sources where possible, especially sources outside the UK with no axe to grind. I am sure people on this site could help with links.

    The name of the site should appear high up on any google search on Scottish Independence.

    Do you think this would be possible? Would anyone be interested in trying to set up such a website? Any other opinions on this and getting the information out there?

  110. crazycat says:

    @ Tinto Chiel at 5.02

    Not a problem; I’d moved on to this thread too, and was checking the other one when I saw your post – I’ll answer you back there, though, for consistency and non-confusion!

  111. Tatu3 says:

    Ealasaid at 5.47.

    Don’t know it could be done but I think it’s a great idea all the same

  112. Robert Louis says:

    Ealasaid at 547pm,

    You mean something like this; (web version)

    But updated, obviously.

  113. Robert Graham says:

    thanks petra – i suppose if anyone is interested in the vid they can check your previous post that was successful ,

    robert louis – cant agree more it’s a great pity this site dosent reach a wider audience ,that might waken some people up , even then i suppose stupidity plays a big part . or couldn’t give a fig

  114. heedtracker says:

    A British coincidence I’m sure. Just the cops and prison officers though. It is the tory creeps in charge.

  115. Capella says:

    Craig Murray is now able to publish details of the legal claim against him:

  116. Ealasaid says:

    @ Robert Louis

    Haha I was really thinking of that awful website they set up in IndyRef1 that only annoyed everyone that tried to get any information out of it, but yes the WBB x2 were great. I am not sure that if the fact that it is Wings would put some people off now though, but Brexit could break down the barriers. Also does it come up early in a Scottish Independence google search?

    There is an awful lot more information out there now. I know the Rev was updating, but his current troubles will need to take priority at the moment. I was hoping that something could be got out there soon. I am not in favour of waiting 4 years as I think Westminster will have made sure any action is not possible by then.

  117. Legerwood says:

    Robert Louis says:
    10 September, 2017 at 5:24 pm
    British = English. English = British. In all things and at all times. So it was for every single ‘British’ colony in history.””

    Robert I think you can now add UK=England/ish to that group. Certainly in recent months it seems to be used by newspapers in headlines, particularly the Guardian, to give the impression that the article is an all encompassing analysis of a UK wide issue but when you read the article it is England that is cited and no other part of the UK.

    Whatever title or word is used as an all encompassing title for all parts of the UK it would quickly be reduced to meaning England. Wales, Scotland and NI would as usual be omitted.

  118. bjsalba says:

    First they ignore you,
    then they laugh at you,
    then they fight you,
    then you win.

    Mahatma Gandhi

    I reckon we are at line (stage) 3

    Courage folks.

  119. Capella says:

    Iain Mcwhirter writes an intersting piece corre3cting Guardian rubbish about Scotland’s finances. “Back off jock-baiters”

  120. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    What’s interesting (and depressing) about that MacWhirter piece is that it was published in November 2007, but is still true/relevant.

    It’s also interesting that MacWhirter himself was far more pro-independence in that piece than he has been at times since; he regularly swithers over federalism, which he knows cannot work, but is apparently unwilling to jettison entirely.

  121. Gary45% says:

    On a lighter note, just noticed on msm “what will Harry Hewits burds name be after the tax payers funded wedding”?

    “Another benefit scrounger or easy money”

  122. Ken500 says:

    Murray Blog

    @ SKy News only gets 1.5million average viewers a day. That is a legal claim. Easy to reduce that. Not much influence. Overrated? Soon reduce that minority.

    The ‘libel’ radical poseur Mail commentators. Imposters. Typing themselves out of a job. They want freedom of speech for themselves but not for anyone else. Deletes and banns. Go for it. Craig.

    The Express take over and out. Spouting nonsense out of a job. Another one down, another one gone. Another one bites the dust.

    Mogg one of the most unchristian person on the planet. Do not practise what they preach. Broken vow. The hypocritical Politicans starving and killing people.

  123. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – I didn’t notice the date! Was thinking how good it was that Macwhirter had changed his tune enough to tackle the Simon Jenkinses of the London press! Oh well. As you say, he flirt with federalism, which will never happen.

  124. Ken500 says:

    McWhirter Independence baiter. Irrelevant?

  125. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ronnie a quick search shows many papers carrying the story – sounds horrific.

  126. mike cassidy says:

    Jason Smoothpiece 3.30

    I like the idea of referring to the OO types as Hillbilly Unionists.

    In reality, though, the situation in the USA is more complex than that.

    Check out the wonderful “Rainbow Pie” by the late Joe Bageant – or the recent “Hillbilly Elegy” by J D Vance.

  127. heedtracker says:

    Capella says:
    10 September, 2017 at 7:33 pm
    @ crazycat – I didn’t notice the date!

    But you do have to keep checking any and all dates of stuff UKOK hackdom’s farted out into the tory ether.

    Facebook people do it all the time, posting all the endless tory hacks say Scotland’s a shithole stuff but it could really be from any time. At least since Snatcher Thatcher tories did actually ruin so much of Scotland, more than aided and abetted by the red tories.

    But I did meet my Slovene girlfriend btl Graun. He’s a really good kisser.

    Adam Tomkins MSP?Verified account @ProfTomkins Sep 7

    Hearing that Labour has held its Glasgow City Council seat in Cardonald by-election. SNP no closer to that overall majority they so wanted.

  128. Capella says:

    Well some of the figures speak volumes. It’s astonishing that Scottish journalists have known all this for 10 years but never made the case stick publicly, probably because they are vastly outnumbered by the 24/7/365 avalanche of propaganda pouring from the BBC, STV, SKY, Herald, Daily Record, Daily Mail, Scotsman. Times, Telegraph – have I missed anything? Oh yes, the Press & Journal.

    And what the Jock-baiters conveniently omit from the balance sheet are the colossal sums spent on infrastructure projects in London – £6bn for the Jubilee line, £9bn for the Olympics, £16bn for Crossrail – all of which are supposed to represent some tangible benefit for Scotland which somehow never makes it onto the balance sheet. Any economist will tell you that London and the south east benefit disproportionately from ‘”non-identifiable” spending on defence, civil administration and other functions, which makes a nonsense of any claim that the metropolis is hard done by.

    Add the share of tax and the multiplier effect to our revenue figures and it adds up to quite a tidy sum.

  129. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 7.04
    Well, well, well, that really was an interesting read.
    I was wondering if there would be a change of the too poor narritive allowed by the MSM.
    It’s not beyond imagination that Westminster would argue we don’t need to get our share of assets because we are already a wealthy country.
    Or a plea not to leave the English people skint.
    I already do suspect that after we have gone the population of England will be led to believe that they are poor because the Scots took it all!
    To do that they need to introduce the notion that we are indeed a big part of the UK’s wealth… therefore letting some of the truth about our resources get out would fit that narritive.

  130. Capella says:

    @ heedtracker – well I did wonder why you hadn’t already posted it since you monitor the Guardian pages so assiduously!

  131. Rock says:

    “But 19% – the highest number ever recorded, by a big margin – wanted Holyrood abolished and a return to complete London rule. (An option that’s had single-figure support as long as we can remember.)

    There’s no doubt that the last few years have made some Unionists increasingly bitter and hardcore. But it appears that for growing numbers – inflamed by toxic sectarian rhetoric from the Tories, and a relentless onslaught of sour negativity from Labour and the press – that hatred is beginning to overcome reason entirely.”

    Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

    Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

    The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

    Instead of striking when the iron was hot, she tried to be ultra cautious.

    The result: She was outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

  132. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    As heedtracker says, there are a lot of rather ancient articles being resuscitated; I just happened to have already seen the one you linked to a few hours ago – it’s doing the rounds currently.

  133. Rock says:

    Robert Louis,

    “Those Scots who call themselves ‘British’, are deluding themselves, and are an object of mockery by the REAL English elite.”

    But not deluding themselves as much as those who insist on being “British” even after independence.

    Robert Peffers (4th February – The Sirens),

    “The Irish, whether they like it or not, live in the British Isles and are thus British. If they choose to claim not to be British then, like you, they have conceded their right to be British to the United Kingdom.”



    They escaped from being “British” after a long and bloody struggle.

    Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?”

  134. heedtracker says:

    @ heedtracker – well I did wonder why you hadn’t already posted it since you monitor the Guardian pages so assiduously!

    I did.

    We are never going to get journalism that approaches Scotland in anything like the balance and unbiasedness? we deserve.

    They are all on the tory UKOK payroll, they all want to get that BBC job, and ITV too, and they will all sell their souls to the tory devil, to report to Scots that their country is shite and so are they.

    Think of Pravda, but neo fascist Pravada, that’s what UK hackdom’s all about.

    Its why WoS sticks up and out so high:D

  135. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – yes I was sent that article. I don’t do Facebook nor my Twitter account though I do follow Stus. Wonder why old articles are circulating? At least if they have decent info it’s worth a read.

  136. heedtracker says:

    Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?”

    It will be a lot like everyone else who’s not Scots but has moved here Rock.

    You Duh.

  137. Valerie says:

    Good to see some positivity here. I feel quite dejected by the Brexit shit show. Everything is being trashed, and in my opinion, the Tory that said May should be taken out of No 10 in chains was spot on.

    I genuinely feel the Tories are getting away with it. Labour is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike, they disgust me with their flip flopping, and general compliance.

    I follow Steve Peers, who is very objective, experienced ex EU negotiator. He pointed out, very sensibly, to those Remainers who keep hoping fighting to stop Brexit, that the window is closing.

    There is a point of no return approaching for the EU. Businesses, currency, agencies have been working and preparing their arrangements for Brexit, so a huge amount of work (and money) has been spent, and the EU will get to a point, they will just refuse to withdraw/halt Article 50.

    You can understand their position, and attitudes will rightly harden in the EU.

    It’s fine, and correct, to say the fight for Independence won’t go away, if it doesn’t succeed this time, but at what cost? And with Brexit enacted, how damaged will our economy be?

    Scotland will be decimated with Brexit, and we are chained to a neighbour who is dragging us down their plughole.

    Several EU Nationals on Twitter, said they wanted to stay, but were making plans to leave, because they felt unable to ‘wait and see’, with independence. This is happening right now.

  138. Terence callachan says:

    So 19% of people in Scotland want to abolish holyrood and return to 100% London rule.
    Funny that 18% of people living in Scotland are English people working here mostly on a temporary basis.
    Funny how this is ignored by media and wings and weegingerdug etc on the basis that everyone living in Scotland has to be treated as a Scot .
    What isn’t funny is that Scottish independence is being subdued by people from the very country that rules us who nearly all want England to continue controlling Scotland and Wales and NI.
    Until we confront that issue openly and honestly independence will not come.
    It’s not racism it’s not homophobia it’s simply common sense and fairness to say that people from the country that controls Scotland at present will not be allowed to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence .
    Wings and weegingerdug etc are running scared on this issue because they know it’s importance and know that the English media will come for them.

  139. mike cassidy says:

    Norwegians go to the polls tomorrow.

    Is this the sort of article some of us would like to fantasise could have been about an independent Scotland.

    Not Brigadoon. Not a socialist’s paradise.

    Real-world politics. Real-world choices.

    But being made by the people of the country.

  140. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Capella.

    Re: The Macwhirter Guardian article.

    I read it at your archive link (I didn’t notice the date either!) but wanted to see what the comments were like so went to the Guardian link.

    In amongst the comments was a link pertaining to the maritime border between iScotland and England. The link provided returned “Error 404” but my curiosity was piqued and so did some sleuthing.

    Eventually, I found the working link by going to the archive at:- (The European Journal of International Law)

    The article in question is entitled “Prospective Anglo-Scottish maritime boundary revisited” by M Zahraa and is in Volume 12 of the archive.

    The working link is:-

    It’s a lot of reading but the author blows a hole in the unionist supposition that the maritime boundary would progress across the North Sea, perpendicular to the coast at the land boundary at Berwick on Tweed, making many of the rigs and fields English.

    The author points out that ‘equidistance’ is the usual rule of thumb that is, that the border should be an equal distance from the coasts of both countries.

    On page 29 at the pdf link above, the author has a map (map2), which shows 4 possible maritime border lines.

    Earlier in the pdf, on page 21, we find this explanation:
    Based on the foregoing discussion, three kinds of method of delimitation can be utilized in the North Sea section of the continental shelf boundary. As has been said above, the geographical configuration of the coastline presented two major contexts:
    the first is within, and the second is outwith, the Firth of Forth. Therefore, for the purpose of clarifying these two contexts, and following the lead of the Gulf of Maine Case, the concerned area is divided into two sectors by using an imaginary closing line of the geographical indentation of the coast taking into account the presence of Holy Islands and Farne Islands and the peak of the unusual change in the Scottish coastal configuration culminating at Buchan Ness. The first sector is located west of the closing line, whereas the second is at its east.

    Although the radical change in the direction of the Scottish coastline within the Firth of Forth constituted a relevant circumstance, the equidistance method is proposed as presenting an equitable solution for the first sector of the Anglo-Scottish continental shelf boundary line.
    Having considered the geographical context of the area, it has been realized that the radical change in the direction of the coastline produces sufficient impact on the equidistant line causing it to have no distorting effect. Such an impact, however, is only effective if the boundary line was within the geographical configuration of the coasts. Besides, as has been said above, full weight should be given to Holy Island and Farne Islands in the drawing of the boundary line.
    Accordingly, six points on each side of the coast are selected as representing the base points from which a proper construction of the equidistant line can be initialized (see Map 1, line 1).

    Map 1 is on page 22 of the pdf.

    This is the sort of info we need to debunk anti-indy myths. Wonder if there’s a Winger who has the wherewithal to condense that academic article for easier consumption by “the ordinary people”…

  141. Lochside says:

    As I and many others on here have predicted the nature of the political, economic, social and national dialectical contradictions process unpicking the disunited kingdom. Which were bound to come down, as they are now, to a binary split eventually: Scottish identity and therefore independent nationhood versus that of British/English Imperialist intransigence and its refusal to permit the former’s existence.

    The crusty fall out from that is the colonial cargo cult mob: a rag bag of orange bowler hatted GSTQ cretinous scum bags; the reactionary old and or middle class; and the settler RUK imperialist elite. This self deluding and 2/3 thirds self hating crew of spoilers and cavemen are fighting against the tide of history.

    Backed by the scabrous Westminster funded msm and its non dom capitalist crooks we..the majority are bombarded by the lies and the fake news agenda that is designed to bolster the neantherdals and their handlers.

    We need strong and clear direction now from the SNP on how the road to Independence and remaining in the EU will be achieved before Brexit and Henry the viii and his 16th century laws, which have no legal or constitutional rights over us, are enacted…kid on Parliament or not, as we democratically voted for EU membership individually and at the national level, giving us an unequivial mandate to remain.And that position must be acted upon constitutionally by our sovereign leaders.

    And if the cargo cult take to the streets…then our national police force should be there to arrest the attackers of our democracy.

  142. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    I was also speculating about why these articles are resurfacing now.

    The fundamental answer is that I don’t know, but it seems likely that there are various reasons.

    Some people will find an article during a search and not notice the date. Then when other people pick up on it, they won’t check, and it will take on a life of its own.

    Some people may consider that the article is still relevant and just assume others will notice it’s not new – or feel that it doesn’t matter. Or their comment highlighting the date may get lost in transit.

    Both of these considerations will apply regardless of which side the article helps, but there may of course also be people hoping the date will not be noticed and that the message will be assimilated and have a negative effect.

  143. Robert Louis says:

    Valerie at 817pm,

    I totally agree with you regarding the absolute urgency of brexit. I, as many on here, already know, am incredibly frustrated at the SNP approach to this. It is as though they seem blissfully unaware that many, many Scots are hanging their hopes on indyref to avoid brexit. We did vote to stay in the EU remember.

    People from the EU are making their plans NOW. So they need to know if their will be a referendum.

    Just remember when the SNP won their first majority in the Scots Parliament, and all the talk started of independence. all the unionist commentators shouted long and hard things like, Scotland cannot do that, Salmond should be arrested etc..etc and so on. When he said their would be a referendum, again the media attacks were long and hard. Day in day out, we were told troops should be sent up to Scotland, Salmond could not hold a referendum, and even if Scots voted YES, it would be up to Westminster, and so on.. it went, right up to the vote. However, not once did Alex Salmond back down, or say, well, let’s see if we can talk about this, and find a compromise – or even worse, ‘wait and see’. And he was right. Westminster does not do compromise – it sees that as a weakness.

    At that time, support for indy was around 25-30%.

    So I really do not understand what the SNP are waiting on. They say they will do something, the media goes nuts, and they back down again. Time and again they have done this.

    Time is running out, and I worry that Nicola Sturgeon just does not seem to grasp the strength of feeling on this subject, and how angry people will be if their is no referendum.

    The time for ‘trying to discuss things with Westminster is long gone. It makes the Scottish Government look weak, continually bleating on about wanting to be in the talks.

    So, here’s a question I have often wondered about, who on here thinks the Scotgov will actually call an independence referendum prior to Brexit happening, and when will it be called (calling the referendum is not the date OF the referendum)?

  144. Rock says:


    “Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?

    It will be a lot like everyone else who’s not Scots but has moved here Rock.”

    You Duh.”

    When did Robert Peffers move in from England, Guardian reader?

    Robert Peffers (4th February – The Sirens),

    “The Irish, whether they like it or not, live in the British Isles and are thus British. If they choose to claim not to be British then, like you, they have conceded their right to be British to the United Kingdom.”



    They escaped from being “British” after a long and bloody struggle.

    Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?”

  145. Rock says:

    Robert Louis,

    “I totally agree with you regarding the absolute urgency of brexit. I, as many on here, already know, am incredibly frustrated at the SNP approach to this. It is as though they seem blissfully unaware that many, many Scots are hanging their hopes on indyref to avoid brexit. We did vote to stay in the EU remember.”

    Rock (8th July – “Lies spring eternal”):

    “It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.”

  146. galamcennalath says:

    The Enabling Act was a 1933 Weimar Constitution amendment that gave the German Cabinet the power to enact laws without the involvement of the Reichstag.

    That sound ominously familiar!

  147. Highland Wifie says:

    Been away -catching up again!
    I have replied to your question from yesterday on the previous thread The Paper it’s Written On.

  148. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    10 September, 2017 at 8:48 pm

    “Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?

    It will be a lot like everyone else who’s not Scots but has moved here Rock.”

    You Duh.”

    Hopeless deflection Rock, to Ireland too.

    Youre still a duh.

  149. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Louis says:

    who on here thinks the Scotgov will actually call an independence referendum prior to Brexit happening

    I believe IndyRef2 will be called when we know the form of Brexit. That date has to be about six months short of Brexit at the latest, so all 27 can agree. And that should also leave time to have the actually vote before Brexit.

    I consider it absolutely essential to have the result before we leave the EU. And I sincerely hope the Scottish Government and Green backers (on this matter) agree!

    What happens if we know the outcome much sooner because talks break down irrevocably? I think the same applies because Brexit can’t happen prior to two years after A50. It would make of a difficult year or so!

  150. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Re next Saturday, Glasgow, ‘Hope Over Fear’ etc, there is nowhere ‘booked’ for a gathering.

    We will just play it by ear on the day.

  151. Dr Jim says:

    Being called British will stick just the same as being a European or an African although there are many nationalities and nations within those geographic locations

    Or Scandinavian or Asian or, how many are on the list
    It doesn’t make anybody more or less of who they choose to be or identify with and removes no rights

    I’m sure there are plenty of Chinese folk or Indians or Pakstanis who don’t consider themselves British and nobody cares or seems to care oddly enough except for Unionists

  152. Dr Jim says:

    Much to the consternation and faux outrage when it happens of the Brits and a couple of our regular posters on WOS the next Indyref will be called at the timing the FM originally stated “When the terms of the Brexit outcome become clear”

    And when that happens the amount of vocal worldwide support for Scotland becoming Independent will be so overwhelming even the Britnat media will struggle to suppress it
    that’s the amount of work that’s going into it right now every single day by the SNP
    Just because you don’t see it, and you know why you don’t hear about it, doesn’t mean it’s not taking place, it is

    Then it’ll be up to us because until then the Unionists will continue to bleat and whine and insult us till they’re blue in the face but let’s see what they do in the privacy of the ballot box when they see clearly the dire options they don’t have then pretend to moan about it after they’ve voted YES

    Personally while we’re waiting I’m going to enjoy watching Ruth Davidson trying to extricate and distance herself from her new allies the Scottish Defence League and the new shiny Orange Lodge party that she is 100% directly responsible for creating, all we need is a Scottish DUP for the set

    What fun!

  153. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Robert Louis and galamcennalath

    Yes, I think we will have a referendum too. The FM has already signalled to us to make it happen, we need to raise the public conscience. Nicola can’t go sooner, mandate or not, unfortunately the 2014 result means she would look opportunistic.
    It will be short & sharp, as the cliff edge approaches.

  154. frogesque says:

    @Dr Jim 9.49

    Just looked up the Orange Lodge party and the Scottish Defence League.

    I feel dirty! How does anyone become so twisted and vile?

  155. heedtracker says:

    And finally, who were the Graun’s barbarians, Romans fought at Hadrians wall? Our Scottish forefathers and mothers too, no doubt. Even tory britnat history stinks.

  156. heedtracker says:

    From a UK academic too, in that Graun Roman jibberish. WHen the Romans came to the UK, is hilarious. Is there nothing our chums in the south say, to avoid mention their S____d region at all?

    “Quite why so much valuable material was left behind has yet to be discovered. One theory is that the barracks was abandoned in a hurry. Birley said: “There was strife. This is the precursor to Hadrian coming to the UK to build his wall.

    This is the British rebellion. So you can imagine a scenario where the guys and girls at Vindolanda are told: ‘We need to leave in a hurry, just take what you can carry.’ If it’s your sword or your child, you grab the child.”

  157. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    For those who haven’t been paying attention the date for Brexit is fixed at Friday 19th March 2019. The confusion that has engulfed the UK government means that very little has been done to date to meet this deadline with all the negotiations completed and there are frantic squeaks now about an “extension”.

    Today’s Sunday Express is a belter. It says is huge letters on the front page that the UK has the EU “on the ropes”. I kid you not.

  158. salty says:

    Brexit is our ticket out of the UK

  159. salty says:

    England will get thrown out of the EU in March 2019 with NO deal.

    The will have to apply to the WTO to see if they can trade using their Tariff system.

    Brexit is a disaster and will be the Game Changer we have been waiting on.

    Scotland will hold IndyRef2 and it will be a resounding Victory for the YES Campaign.

  160. Ken500 says:

    Most Aberdeen fans park up and take the train over the bridge to Edinburgh Obviously not as ignorant, incompetent, disorganised and ill-informed as Foulkes. Fi fouk. Not knowing what time or day. Got a bee in the bonnet about the Bridge. AWPR will mean quicker journey’s south. Thanks to the SNP Scottish Gov. Thanks a Billion. Well done.

  161. Highland Wifie says:

    “And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.” – Elizabeth Appell

    That day is coming soon for all of us but especially for some previous no voters.

  162. Doug Bryce says:

    So : Ruth Davidsons 13 new Scottish Tory MPs could stop Brexit in its tracks tomorrow by voting against the government in great repeal bill. Lets see how they actually vote….

    Any pretense they are standing up for Scotland or against hard Brexit will be shattered tomorrow. Political inconvenient.

  163. Doug Bryce says:

    So : Ruth Davidsons 13 new Scottish Tory MPs could stop Brexit in its tracks tomorrow by voting against the government in great repeal bill. Lets see how they actually vote….

    Any pretense they are standing up for Scotland or against hard Brexit will be shattered tomorrow. Politically inconvenient.

  164. Capella says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon – excellent work Tintin!
    Of course, Craig Murray would be the expert to present the material re maritime boundaries. But he may be rather preoccupied ATM. Let’s see if someone picks up on this link and can enlighten us. Legalspeak baffles me.

  165. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Thanx Capella.

    It was an interesting sleuth!

  166. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, I posted that paper a few times on the Grun back in the day, and mentioned it on the Herald.

    Basically the initial line is OK up to the 12 nm territorial limit, because it’s equidistant between those two coasts, and is fair to both coastal states for the likes of onshore fishing.

    But after that 12 nm it goes into the EEZ, and that should be perpendicular to the more general coastline – which swings it around much more to the East.

    The line would be expected not to split operating fields / blocks, to meander around them a bit to make life easier for operators – the alternative being a common area administered by both coastal states. But these days those fields are being decommissioned (mostly at least), so that shouldn’t really be a problem.

  167. yesindyref2 says:

    Incidentally the UK finished negotiating its own EEZ back in the mid-70s (it did it because of oil), and that’s great because all Indy Scotland would have to do is finalise the median lines east and west – the EEZ is then set as per the mid-70s agreement (Norway, Netherlands and Denmark I think, possibly Ireland), but split off from England and the rUK.

  168. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Just catching up on this and other sites) again and lot of very partinent comments on this thread already.

    “Devolution has been a dud, say most Scots”, opines the Sunday Times. Haven’t read the entire article, but with the extracts shown here, that conclusion would appear to be a laughable inversion of the truth. That it can even be posited by a supposedly serious newspaper says much about where we are right now.

    Just one small example of how the British Nationalist media have gone into overdrive, which might explain an apparent hardening of support for a “unitary UK”. Some people, in an attempt to cling onto an outmoded worldview, are being driven to ever-greater extreme positions by the barrage of lies with which they are being fed. One must hope that the absurdities will become so outrageous that even they will at some point realise they are being conned.

    Given all this, you have to wonder why MacWhirter could write such a good article so many years ago and not be wholeheartedly onside for indy by now. A continuing personal allegiance to BritLab, or has he been given to understand in no uncertain terms that any attempt to follow-through on the logic of that article would mean he was out of a job?

  169. Meg merrilees says:

    Rock and stewartb.

    Just to clarify a misunderstanding on the previous thread.

    I did not misquote Nicola.

    You both assume I was quoting her from her recent speech on the programme for government. Wrong!

    I was quoting her from FMQ’S sept. 7th, 2017.

    Go to the you tube video of the Scottish Parliament FMQ’S and listen in from about
    10mins :10secs in. She is replying to Ruth Davidson in a discussion about income tax.

    I think you’ll find that my post matches her speech word for word.

  170. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 10 September, 2017 at 8:03 pm:

    ” … Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?””

    I won’t dignify that utter gibberish posted by Rock with any other reply than to quote dictionary definitions for both of the terms, “The British Isles”, and, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.”

    Suffice to say I expect that the vast majority of Wingers can discern the two term do indeed refer to different things.

    Anyway, Rock can always blame the independent Scottish Education system for his lack of a proper education. He does, after all usually blame the SNP for everything else he believes to be wrong with Scotland.

    The British Isles is a group of islands in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Continental Europe. It includes Ireland, Great Britain, the Isle of Man, Shetland, Orkney, and thousands of smaller islands. Traditionally the Channel Islands are included.”

    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. is the constitutional monarchy occupying the island of Great Britain, the small nearby islands (but not the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands), and the north-eastern part of the island of Ireland. Usually, it is shortened to United Kingdom or the UK, though Britain is also an officially recognised short form. “Great Britain” is sometimes used as a short form, and is the name used by the UK in some international organisations.”

    I realise Rock’s grasp of the English language is somewhat lacking but must assume most real independence supporters are not quite so lacking in a proper education and can actually understand their native language(s).

  171. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 21:07,

    I agree with you, indyref2 has to come before Brexit is finalised. Otherwise by any standard this precious one-time opportunity will have been squandered.

    Which is why I am ambivalent about SG’s intentions as signalled in the Sunday Post article: “SNP ministers draw up Holyrood Brexit Bill” ( as kindly provided by nana yesterday.)

    If it’s a means of provoking a much-needed constitutional showdown with UKGov I’m all in favour, but if it’s signalling that the SG is going to passively cave in to Brexit in parallel with London somehow, I’m agin for the very reason stated above.

    In the meantime, without clear and effective signalling, many more EU citizens will give up all hope in us and make plans to leave, as valerie @ 20:17 mentions. A point I was making myself the other day. We need those people to stay, both for their economic contributions and also for their votes.

  172. Robert Louis says:

    Meanwhile, in a complete and very detailed REPEAT of history, the Westminster Government will tonight seek powers such that its ministers can act and change laws as they see fit, without Parliament’s approval. It is not en EU exit bill, it is not a Henry VIII powers bill, it an enabling act.

    A well know politician, Mr A Hitler, in 1933, introduced EXACTLY the same kind of legislation to the Reichstag in Germany. As he was dependent upon power from coalition partners, he saw the enabling act, as a means to avoid having to depend upon winning votes in Parliament and have to depend upon his coalition partners. History has shown us that such power corrupts. It is intoxicating. London is not special, Westminster will be corrupted by such power too.

    When Hitler introduced his Enabling act in 1933, nobody saw just how things would evolve. But we know now.

    Make no mistake, the legislation being voted on in Westminster is the UK’s very own enabling act. It is an affront to any remote concept of democracy, and effectively creates a genuine one party, dictator state, unaccountable to Parliament, in the UK.

    These are dangerous times. “Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it”. The people of England need to wake up, and fast. Tonight MP’s will vote in Westminster whether to pass the UK enabling act of 2017, or not.

  173. Nana says:


    Nicola to speak at 10.30am
    Twenty Years on: Devolution Past, Present and Future
    Link here

    Scotland to start exporting cheese to France

  174. Nana says:

    Wind farms in Scotland generated enough electricity in August to power nine out ten of all Scottish households

    MPs need to take a new approach over Brexit

    Two million UK families face £50-a-week cut in income

  175. Dorothy Devine says:

    Anyone else read the article by Gerry Hassan in the Guardian?

    Deeply disappointed in the man – and no comments allowed , at least as yet.

    I sometimes wonder if the media is babbling in an attempt to smother us in sound so that no-one can be heard – like a noisy irrational row where someone has to walk away as the only means of stopping the cacophony.

    It’s either that or they are attempting to provoke a violent reaction which their political buddy’s can then use as an excuse to send in the army.

    I do wonder what Scottish soldiers think – are they all Queen and Westminster supporters , happy to be used and abused or are they just unaware of history.

  176. Maria F says:

    I think that group that wants to abolish the Scottish government is really most of the tories. It would be interesting to know how many among Ruth’s 13 and how many among the sitting tory MSPs currently in Holyrood actually support abolishing Holyrood and force upon us London rule. That would be a good gauge as to where the tory party is actually going.
    This percentage for me is a sign that the tories are becoming more and more radically right wing and extreme: if you can’t fight the SNP in fair and democratic terms, then abolish democracy altogether by brute force. This is what Theresa May’s government is also doing with Scotland by overriding the EU vote in Scotland, denying the independence referendum and keeping the SNP government out of the brexit negotiations. To me it is all part of the same manoeuvre and for sure an admission that the tories lost the battle in Scotland so they are now resourcing to irrational and retrograde moves in their desperate attempt to take the SNP ‘problem’ away.

    This shows just how pathetic, out of touch and out of date the tories have become but it also shows just how desperate the English ruling elite is to keep control over Scotland resources.

  177. Dorothy Devine says:

    As an aside , I see the Foreign Office is going to offer English wine – presumably the good stuff will be locked away for their own consumption.

  178. Hamish100 says:

    What about English scotch or the whiskey from the englander DUP party ( we don’t live in Ireland punters)

    What a green and pleasant land —- oops the DUP can’t have that.

  179. Capella says:

    Tony Blair wanted a British football league – to unite the country after devolution. Because, as we all know, nothing unites people so much as a football match.

  180. Macart says:

    Many thanks Nana.

    Plenty to get on with there. 🙂

  181. Ken500 says:

    Never trust the Polls. Ever. An exploitative business. Used to manipulate the outcomeresukts. This Poll was done before the GE. Events have moved on from there. Events are now moving so fast as to make this Polls data not only suspect but irrelevant. For any in depth reading.

    The Orange Lodge is an illegal organisation that breaks the Law. Any Political Party based on Orange Lodge ideals is illegal. The Law is not being enforced equally against the Orange Lodge participants. The Law is being broken time and time again, The bigotry, racism and offence is not being fairly reputed and dealt with. Any candidate elected as an Orange Lodge member/representative/Party. The Party should be outlawed. It is breaking electoral Law. They should not be standing as a candidates. They should be debarred from standing from public office or resign their membership. A legitimate by election should be held. The Orange Lodge is a secret, semi illegal society. It has no place in public life. It’s foundation/ideals is discriminatory, unequal, misogynistic, not open to all and offensive. Backbll and secrecy. Unlawful based on inequality and religious discrimination and bigotry which has no place in public life.

    Farague is a criminal was funding a Political Party with (EU) public money He ha been allowed to destroy the work economy, beaus even no action was taken by the authorities. Protected by Tory trainees who want out of the EU ontgry can continue to illegally tax evade.

    The Tory and unionist Parties want out of the EU so they and their cronies can continue to illegally tax evade. The harm and heartache they are bringing to so many people is appalling.

    The unionists are illegally taking £Billion ps out of Scotland every year. And wasting it. Falsifying accounts and breaking the Law with impunity.

    Any political Party based on the Orange Lodge priniples is illegal breaking electoral rules and candidate qualification rules, and should be banned, No public money should every be used to support the Orange Lodge or the unlawful activities. The Police are not upholding the Law by not objecting to Orange Marches as they should. A threat to people going about their lawful business, disrupting the economy and giving offence. Other people are having to paying to support their unlawful activities. This has no place in modern life. Like something out of the ark. Discriminatory.

  182. cearc says:

    Highland Wifie, 11.30,

    That Appell quote should be the main thrust of the next Indyref campaign.

    This time it is Yes that is the nearest to statues quo and No that is a plunge into a bleak looking uncertainty.

  183. frogesque says:


    Bright new shiney Scottish Affairs Committee has

    4 Tory, 3 SNP, 3 Lab and 1 Dedum

    How very Westminster style democratic. I mean actually allowing SNP members to grace their overseeing of us.

  184. frogesque says:


    Bright new shiney Scottish Affairs Committee has

    4 Tory, 3 SNP, 3 Lab and 1 Dedum

    How very Westminster style democratic. I mean actually allowing SNP members to grace their overseeing of us.

  185. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT but the Herald has an article by the sectarian song singer Donald Finlay – a happy proudscotbut.

    Actually shocking drivel from a man who should know better.

  186. galamcennalath says:

    frogesque says:

    Bright new shiney Scottish Affairs Committee has

    4 Tory, 3 SNP, 3 Lab and 1 Dedum

    Well, that’s the kind of anti-democracy Scotland has to endure in the so called Union.

    Anyone know hat the previous make up was?

    A ‘balanced’ make up should be something like …

    7 SNP, 2 Tory, 1Lab and 1 LibDem

  187. stu mac says:

    @heedtracker says:
    10 September, 2017 at 1:39 pm

    Re Agincourt, in a kind of very loose sense Branagh is correct as much of the reason for recruitment in the lower ranks was booty and so foreign mercenaries like Scots and Irish (and others) might have been in the ranks also.

    Of course the union of crowns hadn’t taken place then never mind the union of parliaments which created “Britain”. But then Branagh might have been playing to the Yank audience who have difficulty distinguishing between Britain and England. He isn’t English btw, Irish born in Belfast.

  188. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 10 September, 2017 at 10:24 pm:

    “And finally, who were the Graun’s barbarians, Romans fought at Hadrians wall? Our Scottish forefathers and mothers too, no doubt. Even tory britnat history stinks.”

    It does and it always has, but this is the claim of archaeologists and not historians.

    They do frequently get carts before horses by their pre-brainwashed mind sets.

    A visit to the stone age villages/settlements on the Scottish Northern Isles will show that the inhabitants were a remarkably sophisticated and civilised peoples.

    There are even indoors-to outdoors sewerage drainage carrying waste out of the homes, stone sideboards and bed recess spaces. Furthermore, where do they get the idea that the Britons were rebelling? The Romans were the invaders and the Britons the aboriginal natives attempting to repel the invaders.

    It’s a bit like the claims that the Scots came from Ireland when the logical conclusion is that the tribe mainly inhabited the shorelines around what we now call the Irish sea. It was, after all an age when the main highways were the seas and waterways and the shortest distance between Scotland and Ireland is only 12.517 international miles or 10.877 nautical miles.

    Not only that but more recent digs on Scotland’s, more inaccessible, islands and sea stacks show that the Scottish stone age artefacts predate their Irish mainland equivalents.

    Historians seem little better with, for example their claims that the Jacobites were rebelling against the English king when you cannot rebel against the king of a foreign kingdom and the so called Jacobite rebellions began in 1688 but Scotland remained an independent kingdom until 1707 and the English armies were still fighting and killing, “Rebels”, at Culloden in 1745.

    Truth, history and logical conclusions are often not exactly in agreement, though.

  189. manandboy says:

    The root of all evil in the British Empire is the Class system with its intrinsically anti democracy power structure which persists to this day. In the Class system, democracy is not denied but is treated as a weed, something that can’t be got rid of and so must be controlled.

    Even a casual assessment of the condition of democracy in BritNat world reveals a democracy which has always been carefully controlled by the ruling class. Starting with only landowners having the vote up to the present day with no English Parliament, FPTP, constituency manipulation, and much more, the ruling class has cleverly controlled the democratic process so as to produce the result required by the British Establishment.

    Right now democracy for and in Scotland is being suppressed and manipulated by the British State through a propaganda war the like of which has not previously been seen. Earlier this year, in GE17 we saw in Scotland the cynical wholesale manipulation and distortion of electoral rules with regard to timing, targeting and funding. Add State sponsored brainwashing through a media network saturated with barefaced lies, half truths and fake news and you have a democracy being choked to near death. All the work of the ruling class.

    Scotland’s independence can only be achieved in a healthy democracy. As always the British Establishment is making sure that democracy in Scotland is severly disabled using tactics both old and new. The ruling class know that to keep Scotland they need only knobble its democratic process. This is what we are witnessing.
    Remember always- the Union is anti-democratic by design.

    Support democracy. Vote SNP. Support Independence.

  190. galamcennalath says:

    Dan Huil says:

    More developments in Catalonia

    The editor of El Vallenc, Francesc Fàbregas, make an interesting point. He says the Civil Guard are not looking for ballot papers etc when they carry out their raids on pro Indy media, he says they are trying to provoke trouble. I assume if they can engineer a backlash, they can declare a clamp down.

    That really would be a sign of a regime resorting to scraping the barrel in order to retain power.

    I hope the Catalans can have a fair and democratic referendum and the freedom to make their own minds up about the future they want.

    I sincerely hope no one considers that type of provocation to stir trouble a tactic to deploy here.

  191. McDuff says:

    I see HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Catalonians in march for independence.
    In Scotland on a good day we get 20,000.
    If we are ever to achieve independence those who want it must get off their a***s and physically show it.

  192. Grouse Beater says:

    Agree in general with Man and Boy.

    In case you missed it:

    (Published soon: ‘The Hassan Hustle’, a take down of a renegade academic.)

  193. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 10 September, 2017 at 11:43 pm:
    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    ” … Let’s see if someone picks up on this link and can enlighten us. Legalspeak baffles me.

    I tried to post this in the wee sma hours but it didn’t appear.

    The Treaty of Union, 1707, (Article of Union number XXI, (22)), has this to say:-

    XXI. THAT the Rights and Privileges of the royal Burghs in Scotland, as they now are, do remain entire after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof.

    Now that brings up another lot of anomalies – the legal status of Berwick Upon Tweed.

    This website:-

    has this to say:-

    Even Edward IV’s final capture of the town in 1482 didn’t entirely simplify matters. Under the Treaty of Perpetual Peace between Henry VII of England and James IV of Scotland in 1502 (just 11 years before the Scottish army and nobility was destroyed by the English at the Battle of Flodden) Berwick was given a special status as being “of” the Kingdom of England but not “in” it. As a result the town thereafter needed special mention in royal proclamations.

  194. Ken500 says:

    The British Military until recently was made up 80% (proportionately pro rata) of people from Scotland. A higher proportion (pro rata). Used as cannon fodder for a better deception. Unemployment was traditionally higher in Scotland (pro rata) because of Westminster centrist economic policies which majorly favoured London/SE. Thatcher etc.

    .More (pro rta) people in Scotland joined the military to get a job and remuneration or be faced with unemployment. Slogan ‘join the navy to see the world’ etc. Enticing youngsters in with deceptive prospects until they signed on the dotted line.

    Scotland for obvious reasons, surrounded by sea, was a sea going nation. E.g. Manytradutionalky in the merchant navy. Or migrate on a £10 passage to Australia or other parts of the world. 400 million diaspora. The Clearances etc. Depopulating Scotland. People having to leave their home, migrating for a better life. To avoid the higher unemployment (pro rata) because of Westminster unionist policies.

    Until Devolution (2000) when the Scottish Gov could improve the Scottish economy beneficially and wholeheartedly. This has been the case. Scotland is still doing much better economically. Despite the overall subjection to unionist policy constraints, which damage and harm Scotland economically. Disastrous ruinous. UK economic policies. Brexit, false austerity etc. Holding Scotland back. .

    More people joined the military (pro rata) or the TA for remuneration,in Scotland. Then was necessary for those further South, illegal wars etc and military offence affects people from Scotland disproportionatey. In spite of major concerns and opposition in the rest of the UK. People from Scotland were (pro rata) four times as likely to be on the front line and be killed. More families in Scotland faced that possibllity of injury and death. Misery, heart ache and remorse.

    Making people in Scotland (pro rata) even more proportionately objective to the brutality of illegal intervention. More harm disproportionately to the outcome. More people killed and maimed etc. More damage done to the citizens, More overall concerns for families because of disproportionately deviant outcome and results. Millions of people illegally killed and maimed discriminately. Protecting the disproportionate wealth of others. For whom enough is never enough.

    There are more concerns (pro rata)i about Trident based in Scotland whose citizens because of Westminster unionist policies are more exposed to nuclear risks and exposures, disproportionately. Trident illegally dumped on Scotland without any authority and consideration. A colossal major waste of public money. £Trns. A threat to the major population base in Scotland. 2 million in the central belt and the rest of Scotland. Not such a concern for London S/E deliberately based out of range and reach of the any catastrophe or fallout. Disproportionately.

    understandly. it is more of a major concern for people in Scotland. These concerns are once again being deliberately ignored by unionists at Westminster because they are not so closely in the firing line. Deliberately based more out of harm’s way. As per usual the selfish and greedy useless unionist criminals at Westminster are dictating major policies in Scotland. It is no coincidence that a nuclear site based 20mins from London was abandonded after protest in 1992. Westminster unionists disproportionately looking after London S/E interest discriminately and illegally. With policies which disproportionately (pro rata) affect the people in Scotland.

    Westminster is still taking £Billions out of Scotland illegally and unaccounted. £9Billion of ‘non identified expenditure’ in the accounts. Even more because of irrational mismanagement. An average of over £20Million a year in total which adversely affects Scotland. Every unionist representative in Scotland who votes for Brexit in Westminster is showing their true colours to harm and disadvantage Scotland in every way possible,

  195. Macart says:

    Apologies for the direct link, but archive doesn’t work so well on this particular site.

    Time to focus on what’s important and hopefully very soon, a time to choose differently.

  196. Golfnut says:

    @ Robert Peffers.

    Berwick’s status within the UK is very useful to Scotland. The 1746 ‘ Act of Berwick ‘ confirmed that English law stopped at Berwick, that its writ was limited to England, Wales and Ireland.

    That isn’t to say that Westminster hasn’t broken its Statutes regarding English law, but I can envisage any legal challenge from Scotland regarding Henry the VIII law including the 1746 Berwick act.

  197. I suspect that hatred for Scottish self government was always there among the 13% of some bitter and hardcore Unionists.

    But it may have been masked by Labour’s anti tory vote, after all voting Labour in the past would have been seen
    as a safe vote for hard core unionists, as it didn’t threaten their precious union.

    All that obviously changed with devolution,the election
    of an SNP Scottish government and the indy referendum.

    These unionists therefore have no place else to go, but to return to the Tory party or parties further to the right.

  198. Tinto Chiel says:

    RJS @12.37: I understand Mr MacWhirter is actually a LibDem and is addicted to federalism.

    His flip-flopping on independence, as you say, may be because his editor pulls on the lead occasionally.

    Dorothy Devine: re Hassan and The Guardian. I haven’t read his article but let me guess its contents: 1) SNP Bad 2) Corbyn is great and will relight the sacred flame of Socialism in The North Lands 3) use of big sociological words to give his stuff an illusion of substance.

    He’s another one to have done very nicely out of endlessly discussing something he really doesn’t support deep down: our independence.

  199. Ken500 says:

    In Spain people who disobey the Law are charged, convicted and sentenced. Put in prison. Without fear or failing whoever they are. Bankers, lawyers, politicians, Monarchy. The Spanish Gov enforces Spanish Law. A major deterrent to wrong doers. The majority of people in Spain back them. To stamp out corruption and bring justice. The Spanish legal system does need an overhaul to prevent further wrong doing, . Housing market/banking corruption. Leading from the London markets has been tightened up.By regulation in the EU. Now less likely.

    The Spanish situation is entirely different from the Scottish one, To different to be considered without considering the major differences by comparison. Spain (Gov) stayed out of the Scottish indyRef, despite provocation. Respect and do the same stay out of their internal dispute. A beautiful place. Let them find their own solution. Even more autonomy? Etc.

    Spain/Quebec/Scottish entirely different. Different union, different, history,different democracy 1976. different rights and responsibilities, different grievances. Different electoral systems, different outcomes etc, etc, They can’t just be lumped together. They stayed out of ours to advantage. Respect and stay out of theirs. Do not cut off your nose to spite your face. In future Scotland could need the support of their government.

  200. Ken500 says:

    Typos predictive text. Checked and checked. Bit random but get the drift.

  201. manandboy says:

    Thanks for the link to your blog, Grouse Beater, excellent piece.
    I now realise that while the Yes movement concentrated on ideas in IndyRef2014, the British Establishment went through the motions of a campaign (Better Together) knowing all the while that all they had to do was fiddle the democratic process, most notably with the postal votes and the VOW. The saying ‘it’s not the votes that counts, but who counts the votes’ fits perfectly into the ethos and practice of the British ruling class. The very idea of the poor having an equal vote with the rich is anathema to the Establishment, as well as being quite disgusting, naturally.

  202. crazycat says:

    @ Tinto Chiel at 9.59 / Dorothy Devine

    I first came across Gerry Hassan in about 1987/8, when he wrote to a collective I was part of, looking for a job. We had to inform him that none of us was paid – so perfectly reasonably, he didn’t pursue the matter.

    It wasn’t until quite recently that I actually saw him in person, but I had remembered his letter for its tone. Seeing him and reading what he writes now merely reinforced my earlier impression that everything he does is intended mainly for the benefit of G Hassan, and nothing more.

    I may be misjudging him; I’ve never spoken to him. But that it the conclusion I came to way back then and have seen no reason to alter.

  203. tamson says:

    It’ll be interesting to see the tables. I have a theory that not all of that 19% who want to see Holyrood abolished are unionists, but fundamentalist nationalist types who consider it (as currently constituted) a roadblock.

  204. Ken500 says:

    The Scottish Gov should set up a fund (a small beneficial) remuneration for those in hardship because of the threat of illegal deportation. To cover the expense more than reciprocated by the talents, enthusiasm and economic benefits these people bring to Scotland. The Brains etc should have access to a Gov backed Trust or association. It would pay for it’s self. Not have to rely on erratic charity for expenses, Inviting abuse, These people should be protected and have the protection of the Law, After Westminster irrationally and illegally changes to the (visa) rules. Moving the goal posts.

    The Scottish Gov should put it’s money where its mouth is. Set up,a fund to help these people where others can also contribute. To support the importance of these people’s rightful contribution. Before more essential workers are forced to leave because of Westminster unionists continual intransigence. Such a fund would encourage other essential workers to stay. To know and show they have the intended support and sanction of the Scottish Gov, society and community. They are valued members. Action speaks louder than words.

    Set up a charitable trust backed by Gov. These people should not be left to fight this illegal UK bureaucracy on their own. Especially after their major contributions to Scottish life and society. A fund should be established right away if the Gov cares. Talk the talk and walk the walk. . Immediately to end the anxiety of many good industrious people. It will be conciliationary and reciprocal. A small recompense in the volatile, all ongoing situation. Of support. Or Scotland will lose more vital, key workers in the meantime.

  205. Ken500 says:

    The average support for the Tories in Scotland has always been 15% to 20%. After Thatcher outrages. The support rated in this ‘survey/poll taken before the GE could already be out of date. So much has changed since the GE in unionist policies. Downhill all the way. This recorded result (traditional) could have been exaggerated before events took a worse turn for the unionists. Support could have fallen even lower, Peaked and fallen because of the fallout of the continued Brexit mess. People wising up to what it entails and the possible outcome.

    Glossed over before. A hurricane taking precedent just now. To the Brexit hurricane coming down the line. That will do even more irretrievable economic damage. The Brexit bomb shell waiting to strike an already rest of the UK tanking economy. Drip, drip drip. Waiting for the thunderstorm avalanche to come. Unprecedented. Sweeping away all in it’s path, The UK/world economy. The Tory/unionist never failing to destroy, so they can keep tax evading. Scotland protected somewhat from the financial markets. Stronger balance sheet/exports but will still experience the fall out.

  206. Ken500 says:

    Scottish committee. A democratic deficit. There is no democracy in the UK union . It is just a fallacy. An outrage. Another appeal to the EU to protect democracy in Scotland. The democratic process in Britain is being manipulated big time. There is not British justice. It is failing big time. A UK illegal fiscal and economic deficit.

    Democracy and justice usurped by a bunch of criminals and criminal deviant behaviour. Without penalty or rule of rule. Every decision is having to be overturn by the rule of Law. Now they are illegally changing the Statute book. English Law for Englidh folk. EVEL. The Vows betrayed Another IndyRef now definitely on the cards. Getting closer by the day. Democracy will prevail. Karma always comes. It is a natural Law. Of rehabilitation. Never fear.

  207. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ken 500
    [ the Scottish Gov should set up a fund ]

    Am gonna dey ah Ian Gray here , where’s the money for this fund coming from , if the Scottish Gov set up such a fund do you not think the Westminster gov would ramp up they’re notices to leave to exhaust the Scottish Gov funding SNP BAAD .

  208. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It’s not racism it’s not homophobia it’s simply common sense and fairness to say that people from the country that controls Scotland at present will not be allowed to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence .
    Wings and weegingerdug etc are running scared on this issue because they know it’s importance and know that the English media will come for them.”

    (1) What on Earth does homophobia have to do with it?

    (2) We’re not “running scared” because of the “English media” – you think the media doesn’t attack us now, ffs? – but standing up for a principle that we’re not about ethnic nationalism. People who live in Scotland are the people who will be affected by the decision, and denying them a say in their own future is unacceptable. Where they were born is a complete irrelevance.

  209. stu mac says:

    @bjsalba says:
    11 September, 2017 at 9:21 am

    I’m afraid I stopped reading that almost at the first line.

    Of course, up until 1066 there was no England as we perceive it, but along came William, Duke of Norman

    England existed more or less as it is now a hundred years earlier under Æthelstan grandson of Ælfred. Æthelstan was the first king of the English people – a concept that had been around since Ælfred though neither he nor his immediate successors were able to conquer all of the other English peoples (Angle Cyn) to realise his dream.

    Now I know most of you probably don’t care about that bit of history but if you’re going to claim to be talking about history you don’t begin with something so obviously wrong.

  210. Ottomanboi says:

    I do hope a future Scottish state will have the nerve, the bottle, the cojones to produce maps indicating that Cumberland, Northumberland and the Isle of Man are disputed territory, the Scotia Irredenta. Perhaps we might reclaim them as part of a divorce settlement. Wonder what the Sunday Times would make of that? Suspect the expression ‘couldn’t find their own arse’ might apply as the places involved lie so far beyond the ‘home counties’ as to require a bit if Googling.

  211. Abulhaq says:

    I agree. We need to try very much harder. Independence will not be delivered on a plate. This ‘fetish of the ballot box’ needs a reality check. If the Catalans obtain independence and we are still stuck in the UK because we do not have the courage of our convictions then we will look utterly pathetic as a people, as a nation. Perhaps the shame of that might provoke something positive.
    The independence movement does sorely need to sharpen up and ditch its bourgeois sense of ‘respectability’.

  212. Big Jock says:

    It’s no real surprise that 19% of unionists want London Rule. They see Scotland as too Scottish for it’s own good. We only have to look at Ibrox to witness the self haters and harmers. Their fans now have an excuse to hate the national team as there are too may Celtic players for them.

    A bigot to them is anyone who doesn’t want British London rule or disagrees with their Orangefest. You can’t explain bigotry to a bigot it’s impossible. I don’t even engage with them now.It’s like 60’s USA with the race riots and the white people calling Martin Luther a bigot for wanting equality.

    They are dysfunctional people on every level. Simply put they are morons who can only love a flag.

  213. Rock says:

    Meg merrilees,

    “Rock and stewartb.

    Just to clarify a misunderstanding on the previous thread.

    I did not misquote Nicola.”

    Yes, you did, if stewartb’s quote is correct:

    Meg merrilees says:
    8 September, 2017 at 12:54 am (Mascot Of The Universe)

    “Ghillie and
    For anyone who missed it today at FMQ’s

    Nicola’s rallying call:

    The message that I want to send out to people here at home, to people elsewhere in the UK and people internationally … is:

    Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up in and be educated,
    Scotland is the best place in the world to be cared for if you are sick or vulnerable or in need,
    Scotland is the best place in the world to grow old in
    and it’s the best place in the world because of our investment in infrastructure, in digital and in business support to invest and do business in as well.
    That’s the message I want to send to the world about Scotland and all of us need to make sure we do everything that is necessary to deliver that kind of world class nation.”


    “Is it really?

    What is the life expectancy in Glasgow, Scotland’s biggest city?

    What is it in her own constituency?

    Why do we want “independence” then?

    Nicola really must stop flogging dead horses and instead highlight what we could make better by becoming independent.”

  214. Rock says:


    “Hopeless deflection Rock, to Ireland too.”

    Your comprehension skills are dreadful, Guardian reader, which school did you go to?

    Read the posts again, a hundred times, and then tell me who had mentioned Ireland.

  215. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “I realise Rock’s grasp of the English language is somewhat lacking but must assume most real independence supporters are not quite so lacking in a proper education and can actually understand their native language(s).”

    You are an aggressive verbal bully here and almost certainly a nasty person in real life.

    If you are as clever as you think, why don’t you have your own site to flog your “knowledge”?

    Instead of contaminating every article on someone else’s website with your verbal diarrhoea.

    Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?

  216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Tinto Chiel @ 09:59,

    I am obliged for that wee correction, Tinto. You learn something every day on WoS!


    As to the 19% who now seem to want to return to antediluvian times, I am reminded by an article in “The National” today that about the same proportion voted against devo in 1997.

    Not exactly the same people, of course (life taking its usual toll), but exactly the same way of thinking, I would venture. Re-invigorated by all these recent events into thinking it might even be possible.

  217. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “I realise Rock’s grasp of the English language is somewhat lacking”

    Robert Peffers says:
    11 September, 2017 at 11:44 am

    @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 11 September, 2017 at 11:21 am:

    “It’s not racism it’s not homophobia it’s simply common sense and fairness to say that people from the country that controls Scotland at present will not be allowed to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence.”

    Where were your language skills when you attributed someone else’s comments to the Rev. Stuart Campbell?

  218. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    “His assessments of other writers are “more like road rage than literary criticism”, and his insistence in linking an artist’s libido with creativity provides much comedy.”

    Some have it; most don’t. When you are between the hard place, you must be there, or elsewhere.

    However, more meaningful input is found here:-

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