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Sometimes it’s hard not to despair

Posted on June 23, 2017 by

We’re still on holiday, because five years of stuff like this ruins your soul:

Let’s look at the logic of that closely for just one minute, and then we’re going to go back to smashing our head off a brick wall to try to make the stupid go away.

1. Scots definitely want to stay in the EU. 93% of Remain voters would vote the same way again, whereas only 78% of Leave voters would.

2. There’s no evidence that the rest of the UK has changed its mind about leaving. The Lib Dems stood in the general election on a policy of a second EU referendum – with the clear intention of reversing the result of the first one – and were crushed. (With many predicting a revival, their vote share actually went DOWN.) Labour and the Tories both unequivocally accept Brexit.

3. So a second EU referendum just isn’t going to happen – there is as close to zero political support for it as makes no difference – and even if it did it would likely deliver the same result. Scotland would say “We want to stay!” again, and be ignored again. It would be a total waste of time.

4. A second independence referendum, however, IS a viable prospect. There’s majority support for it at Holyrood, the SNP have a clear manifesto mandate for it, a vote in favour has already been passed, and a Yes vote WOULD change whether Scotland was forced out of the EU or not.

5. And yet a majority of Scots want something that has absolutely no chance of happening and wouldn’t change anything even if it did, but AREN’T in favour of the only thing that can save them from the thing they don’t want to happen.

It’s exactly like a drowning man being thrown a lifebelt and ignoring it while screaming for someone to throw him a roll of toilet paper instead. Just shoot us.

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299 to “Sometimes it’s hard not to despair”

  1. MajorBloodnok
    Ignored
    says:

    I think there is a belief in Scotland, particularly amongst the Unionists (but perhaps amongst neutrals too), that Brexit just won’t happen and even if it does somehow the UK Government will muddle through, like it always seems to do, and everything will turn out ‘alright’.

    I never took Scots for being optimists, but that is perhaps the reason.

    If the UK press can continue to hide from people what is happening and what is likely to happen, then this state of affairs may not change. However, it’s early doors yet, and the economic signs are not encouraging for Brexit, and consequently, the Union.

  2. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    So, no column that indicates 52% want one? 😉

  3. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    To be honest I’m no fan of polls. I take little notice of them as they are clearly just a propaganda tool to politically influence people.

  4. fillofficer
    Ignored
    says:

    bang, bang

  5. Another Union Dividend
    Ignored
    says:

    One Scot is right most published polls reflect the views of whoever is paying for them.

    O/T Can some please help me by posting a link to the video on Tory MP LUKE GRAHAM’s ballot box deception?

  6. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    The thing is, I want rid of the monarchy, but if I was given the choice between an independent Scotland with the Queen remaining head of state, or staying in the UK with an elected head of state, I’d choose the former, because I want independence more than I want a republic.

    A lot of those folk unfortunately still think being in the UK and out of the EU is better than being in the EU and out of the UK. We’ve got to change that.

  7. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    Totally agree with point number 5. The majority of the electorate it seems are their own worst enemies.

    The worst of all though are those that believe Brexit will be bad for Scotland overall, yet support it anyway because of all the immigrant abuse that has been being dished out for years now in the MSM and shaped the views of the stupid.

    That was what created UKIP and not the other way around, these particular people really are stupid. Think I’ll go on holiday now too.

  8. Dcanmore
    Ignored
    says:

    People need to be slapped by a big wet fish, Brexit disaster with inept Westminster will provide it. But there also needs to be a simple clear strategy with bitesize goals that is digestible for the electorate instead of 100 voices with 100 issues all shouting at the same time. Challenge Brexit with the alternative progressive vision powered by a coherent and constructive argument that all the Indy movement can sign up to and launch with a powerful united voice.

  9. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    Never under estimate a proud Scot’s ability to find a ‘reason’ not to support independence.

  10. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    I reckon if we were threatened with being completely obliterated by nukes if we didn’t vote yes the majority would still want shackled to the union. No surrender!

  11. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    As I remember during the Indy Referendum when Scots were asked about a whole list of things they would want they said yes. However it it could only happen with Independence and when you put them all together and called it Independence they voted no.

    I think that is because that would require them to be responsible for, and accept, real change. (I suspect that is part of how ‘Scottish’ Labour think, voting Labour in Westminster means the result is far away and they don’t need to take responsibility for it.)

  12. Mike W
    Ignored
    says:

    Here’s hoping that the horrible outcome of Brexit becomes clear and the lifeboat option is launched.

  13. Peter McCulloch
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s no hope for the seriously stupid,they care about no one else and no matter how bad things become for them due to Brexit, they are proud to be British and will blame the Scottish Government for not doing enough to protect them.

    I met one OAP during the general election who doesn’t like Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and when I told her she could lose the triple lock on her pension and her response was that she just would have to live with it.

    I left telling her not to complain if or when the worst happens.

    Another example was an elderly Labour voting couple who came out of the polling station after having voted, stating that only the out of work vote SNP.

  14. Bob Mack
    Ignored
    says:

    Sometimes it’s better to let people suspect you are an idiot, rather than open your mouth and confirm it.

    I always felt this applied to all of our broadcasters and media, and now I am certain. How on earth can the media still try to portray the UK as being in control of anything. The last 18 months have seen it lurch from crisis to crisis unabated, without any sense of plan, purpose, or direction. and yet they still try to give the impression of all being under control.

    The next time somebody tries to tell me that Mrs May is cunning and worthy of her position as a shrewd politician ,I will laugh in their face. She is haphazard at best ,and fortunate at worst. Luckily we still have a choice in the offing, which the poll fails to indicate. 52% of Scots want that choice at some point of the Brexit omnishambles. Good enough for me.

  15. A.H.
    Ignored
    says:

    Under FPTP you can’t tell whether people didn’t vote Lib-Dem because they disagreed with the notion of a 2nd ref, or simply because they couldn’t win in their constituency, and/or though that there are more important topics. So the Lib-Dem vote in a national election is a very poor measurement, really.

    In fact, a number of recent opinion polls (UK wide) suggested that the EU ref vote would be reversed if the vote were to be held again.

    That said – as it’s not going to be held again anytime soon (given the dynamics of our disfunctioning political system), the rest of your analysis is spot on, of course.

  16. Derick fae Yell
    Ignored
    says:

    52% support for holding a second independence referendum

    what was the support for holding the first referendum, two years before it was held?

    I don’t know the answer but from memory it was under 30%?

  17. Alison Rollo
    Ignored
    says:

    Why have we not had a clearly worded poll — ‘Should the people of Scotland have the right to choose to stay in or to leave the UK after the Brexit process?’ I believe a majority would say we should have a referendum.

  18. shug
    Ignored
    says:

    That’s what happens when you have the BBC pumping out nonsense as news.

    Anything unionists say is promoted with a tone of balanced and reasonable

    Anything a nationalist says is a threat and fanciful

    The “Mail” messages of bigotry and hatred are repeated by the BBC on a daily basis. No mention of the Mail radicalizing right wingers.

    The SNP needs to go on the attack and acknowledge the problems (there are the making of Westminster Governments) but provide leadership and an alternative with a vision of the future that is not grim

    Clearly a future in the UK outside the EU is going to be very grim. An independent future in the EU will be better and different.

  19. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Another Union Dividend – Politics Scot David Hooks here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PdgBswuYGk

  20. Iain
    Ignored
    says:

    Yup.

    There’s a particular truth about Scotland which on one hand is sad, but on the other lessens disappointments if we acknowledge it and channel our efforts. It is this: Scotland has never been wholly united in the cause of independence. There have always been other issues and some of the population who had another agenda, or different perceptions, or ignorant of what was going on, or seeking personal advantage. Think of the Wars of Independence and Bannockburn: there were ‘Better Together’ Scots on the English side.

    But the UK’s legacy of imperial might and international prestige is vanishing: there will be less confusion in the years to come.

  21. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    The poll findings above reflect the power of propaganda. We all know it.
    What’s remarkable is that so many of us resist the constant barrage of lies and fear tactics.
    The SG needs an “instant rebuttal” unit which can publish verifiable facts on a daily basis to counteract media spin.
    Today’s top spins are farm payments and college student numbers. Where can the average voter go to get the facts?

    Getting information out to the voters is important and WoS is one of the best ways of doing it. But the SG also has a duty to inform the public so that they won’t be misled by devious politicians.

    Here’s the link to Andy Wightman asking a Tory MSP whether he has received his farm payments yet and how much he received. Tory refuses to respond. But the public ought to be informed about the £3.3 billion being granted to farmers and landowners in these austere times. Then the spin about exactly when they get their money would be more transparent.

    https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/877926879663017984?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

  22. ahundredthidiot
    Ignored
    says:

    I picked up a Daily Record at work the other day and got the distinct feeling ‘whinging Scots’ are most comfortable being whinging scots, almost like they enjoy it…..their comfortable place.

    I am not a whinging Scot, but a realist. Heads down for the next few months then slowly start talking about our escape plan…..and it neeeds a credible proposal around currency….or we will lose again and its off to the sun for me.

  23. Gordon Innes
    Ignored
    says:

    I think we really need to get to grips with understanding this if we want to be able to convince a majority to vote against what some would still consider the relative security of being part of the UK.

    First: Although we might not understand; we better not just dismiss as being Stupid !

    Second: Maybe if we can’t unlock the thinking paths that lead people to make what looks irrational decisions then we are the ones who are too Stupid to work it out.

    Third: Sure there are many complex reasons; including (mis-placed) trust in Media sources. But my guess it that for many they just want some breathing space and time to think after so much upheaval and uncertainty – it is perhaps a cry for help; but that our prefered answer in their view will just prolong the uncertainty.

  24. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    Good point Iain. What’s so inherent in the Scottish psyche going through the centuries that stops a big percentage of Scots to be against their own countries aspirations? We are quite unique on earth. Maybe until that question is answered we will never achieve the goal. BTW has anyone been watching the sky series on past British lions tours? It’s truly horrific viewing for me anyway. Watching these so called Scots working themselves into a frenzy because it’s Britain. Mcgeechan last night was a pure embarrassment I have to say.

  25. Supporter
    Ignored
    says:

    48% don’t want indyref2 therefore 52% DO want indyref2. All these qualifications around timing are irrelevant.

  26. Legerwood
    Ignored
    says:

    I wonder when all those young Corbyn supporters are going to realise that old man Corbyn is just as keen to leave the EU as the Tories?

  27. Andrew Coulson
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘People’ in general began to have some influence over what happens politically in the 16th century. Since that time, one fixed fact of politics is that people, above everything else, want stability in the state, so that they can plan their lives with what they see as reasonable confidence.
    Whether we like it or not, even now the Union presents greater certainty and predicatbility than Independence does.
    I think that what brought about the great surge in ‘Yes’ during the first independence referendum was the clear confidence that abounded in Scotland’s future — not only, or even mainly, in our political future, but also in the social and cultural future.
    If and when that belief returns, ‘Yes’ will win, I think.
    What sort of thing could the Scottish/SNP government do to bring this about? Well, a brilliant project like the digital currency would be good:
    http://neweconomics.org/2015/09/scotpound-digital-currency-for-the-common-good/

  28. D Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s almost like, we’re afraid of the responsibility and would rather be in the shit, just so long as we can blame someone else. I other words that allows us to escape responsibility for voting No also.

    I read regular press statements and tweets from the SG that are ignored by the media and feel a rebuttal unit will similarly be disregarded and consequently have little effect.

  29. Andrew Morton
    Ignored
    says:

    People make decisions based on emotion and then use logic to confirm that decision. They also hate change and prefer to hang on in a crappy but seemingly certain situation rather than opt for a better but slightly different uncertain future. It’s only when a very unpleasant reality hits them that they start to clamour for a way out.

    Remember that poll just after the EU referendum where 59% said they’d vote for independence? That was a truer representation of how people would feel if a hard Brexit comes about than the wishy washy poll figures that we’re seeing at the moment. You can be pretty certain that the desperate attempts by Unionist politicians to get the Scottish government to take an independence referendum off the table reflects their belief that they would lose a referendum in those circumstances.

  30. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    Gordon Innes: “I think we really need to get to grips with understanding this if we want to be able to convince a majority to vote against what some would still consider the relative security of being part of the UK.”

    Yep. I feel like we’re still not good enough at trying to understand *why* folk don’t think our way, and until we do, we’ll never be able to change their minds.

    Three years on and you still see some folk refusing to actually believe a majority voted No, never mind trying to understand WHY they voted No.

  31. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Too many Scots are still influenced by propaganda.

    Unionist politicians and their media running dogs are playing a game of smoke and mirrors. They want the gullible to see something, and definitely want to hide other things.

    They want people to believe Brexit is going to be just fine. Soft and cuddly, and everything will be just as before, even better.

    They push a shameless Greater England Nationalist agenda tied to immigration and getting independence from the EU. Some folks are influenced by this, including many Scots.

    In a Scottish context, what they definitely don’t want people to see is the direct link between Brexit and ScotRef. They want to keep them apart in people’s minds. They are, unfortunately, being fairly successful. Brexit is something which is going to happen, whereas ScotRef is something the SNP want to unnecessarily inflict on Scots.

    The indisputable fact is that if Brexit is unacceptable, ScotRef follows … that connect must never be mentioned.

    IMO the conflicting answers given in polls reflect that propaganda.

    They can’t keep up the pretence indefinitely. As Brexit unfolds, the need for ScotRef and its direct relationship will be hard to deny!

    Wonder what Nicola has to say on the matter before the summer recess?

  32. David Sharpe
    Ignored
    says:

    I am very bored with all this in or out nonesense, life is simple if you look at it in certain ways
    This is my take on europe and the UK
    get out of both these political unions, and then we can decide what paths we want to take, both these unions just hold us back from being the socialist democracy we want to be
    Trade will allways happen between countries, as you walk down your street have a look and see how many different countries export their cars to britain, do you think those countries want to see us refuse to import their cars, so lets get serious for once, trade between countries is paramount to eveything, whether it be cars, food, armaments, anything you can think of will allways be traded, to say scotland would lose jobs if we where out of the european union is just simply ridiculous, scotland has actually lost jobs because we are part of the UK, look up the history of the clyde , remember the great Jimmy Reid and the work ins, then look at what thatchers government did to the clyde, revenge for Ted Heath’s government was the main reason, tories never forget, they just bide their time till they get the power to go in for the kill
    Out of politically run europe and out of politically run britain, c’mon you know it makes sense !

  33. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    You need to be a forensic psychiatrist to get into the head of the average Scot. We need a national cognitive therapy programme to reverse the brainwashing, and knock some sense into the dead heads!

    Aghhhhhh….. It’s not politicians we need it’s the Scottish National Therapy Party.

  34. Bootsy8
    Ignored
    says:

    I know one of these people in real life. She voted to leave the EU but now regrets her vote and says she only did it because it would be a laugh and she didn’t think it would actually happen. But she’s also dead against indy, the SNP and hates Sturgeon with a passion. But can offer no real reason as to why, she just does.

    She’s also a single mother of four who relies heavily on benefits, yet she quite likes the tories because she thinks Boris Johnson is a bit of a character. Other than all that she’s a perfectly lovely, sane, hard working normal person. I just don’t get people sometimes.

  35. Geronimo
    Ignored
    says:

    No matter what happens Scots just seem to want to wait and hang on….like what Alison Rollo says above

  36. Geronimo
    Ignored
    says:

    No matter what happens Scots just seem to want to wait and hang on….like what Alison Rollo says above

  37. Johnny
    Ignored
    says:

    Brian Powell @ 10:35am:

    There may be something in that, in some cases. Maybe No/Remainers would fit it best. In each case they voted for the ‘Status Quo’ option, but it’s not possible to have both. Some must be convinced, as others mention, that somehow Leave still means ‘Status Quo’ and that Yes means ‘Change’, which they refuse to actively pursue by changing their minds re indy.

    Of course, events mean there is no status quo on offer from any possible course for Scotland.

    For fear of being accused of generalisation, I would like to make it clear that I recognise that some previous Nos have changed their minds following the Leave vote. Principally because they recognise any notion of ‘status quo’ has been wrested away from them.

    It would seem the struggle for Yes now is to get many others to see that (whatever the WM Gov might peddle) things must change re the relationship with the EU on trade etc etc etc, what this will entail, and that Yes is worth going for if they perceive this change to be detrimental to Scotland.

  38. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    The answer is really very simple, we just need a fair and balanced media, and then people can make an untarnished true informed choice.

  39. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    Example:
    Nicola Sturgeon to face Scottish farming leaders
    http://archive.is/pIEIT

    This was the BBC top story earlier today on the Scottish News section of the website. It has since been demoted. Note the use of the pejorative “face” rather than “meet” or “address”.

    It follows Ruth Davidson’s accusations about farm payments. Ruth Davidson and David Mundell are conducting a guerrilla war on this through speeches to the Scottish Parliament, the Royal Highland Show and the NFU, opinion pieces in the press (P&J) and the BBC. They hope to shore up anti-SNP feeling in their new rural constituencies and pave the way for Westminster managing farm payments and fishing rights.

    Part of their toxic and “divisive” election campaign was to suggest that the SNP take money away from the NE and spend it on their Central Belt cronies. This has been a campaign tactic of the Tories since time immemorial.

    Until voters can access the facts about these and other issues, the media will pour out this type of spin daily. No surprise then that people vote against their own best interests. That’s what political media management is for.

    BTW – The Press and Journal was founded in 1747. The year after Culloden. I wonder why?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Press_and_Journal_(Scotland)

  40. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    One_Scot: “The answer is really very simple, we just need a fair and balanced media, and then people can make an untarnished true informed choice.”

    The thing is, that’s nae happening. Ever. So we need to do it some other way.

  41. Craig P
    Ignored
    says:

    Been reading some history and struck by how many examples there are of people changing their minds about some dearly held principle as soon as they get hit in the pocket.

    I used to think 2014 proved Scotland was more British nationalist than I expected. That people would swallow any old shit if it agreed with their dearly held unionist principles.

    Yes, there’s a hardcore of British nationalists, but now I think what tipped the majority for No was that people were successfully persuaded that independence would be one of those pocket moments.

    If leaving the EU will cost us, then it is the independence movement’s duty to scream that from the rooftops.

    Make the ‘pocket’ vote the indy vote.

  42. Regiburgers
    Ignored
    says:

    Things are going to have to get a lot worse before people actually realise this is the logical way forward for Scotland. At the moment it is more convenient for people to choose not to see the light. The majority are selfish so until it directly impacts the majority in a significant way then we won’t win. In the meantime we can all just sit back and enjoy the concussion from smashing our heads off the nearest hard surface.

  43. David Halliday
    Ignored
    says:

    Doug Daniel said:

    Yep. I feel like we’re still not good enough at trying to understand *why* folk don’t think our way, and until we do, we’ll never be able to change their minds.

    Three years on and you still see some folk refusing to actually believe a majority voted No, never mind trying to understand WHY they voted No.

    Don’t you think we’re maybe not good at understanding why people voted Yes and, until we do, we risk them changing their minds? The two go in tandem. We cannot take 2014 Yes voters for granted.

  44. Alt Clut
    Ignored
    says:

    Brexit may yet give us the opportunity to win an independence referendum but it’s far from the certainty that many suggested it was. So what now for YES ?

    The SNP needs to change. Less management and ignoring of the membership by the ‘all knowing’ inner sanctum of leaders, more democracy, conferences that actually are conferences and not rallies in praise of the ‘great and good’. More political education self conducted by the grass roots members. A change of attitude where the party sees itself as the largest element in a diverse independence movement rather than paying lip service to the rest of YES while actually behaving as if the SNP alone is the movement – with a few other hangers on.

    Commonweal and others have shown that the banality of recent SNP electoral offers, and the plodding ‘safety first of the Scottish Government, have helped to create the party’s present problems. We need to start holding meetings, publishing locally focused material and talking to people about the nature and advantages of self determination for small European nations. We’ve let the unionists push us onto the sterile ground of the referendum itself, and its date(s), being the issue.

    Talk about “stupidity” is destructive – please stop it !

    All this boils down to keeping independence very much on the table but getting our own house in order and offering a clearer vision of a better, independent future – not a tedious wrangle about dates.

  45. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I think if we do get independence it will be a scraping over the line job. There is not going to be a seismic shift. Once we are there people will look back as if from the Matrix and go …what the hell Keanu Reeves style.

    50% of Scots have gotten so used to just dealing with England’s crappy decisions, that they just shrug and wander off. Make do and mend rather than get angry and change.

    There will not be a revolution in Scotland. The people are too downtrodden for that. A zombie nation! We just need to take 5% out of the coma and get over the line.

    What we need is a micro-political strategy to get that 5-6 % . We should not try and get 10 or 20% it’s too late for them.

  46. David
    Ignored
    says:

    Firstly – I know im arrogant. So thats out of the way.

    Second – people are fkn stupid. The majority of people dont know there arse from their elbow politically, economically or historically. Nor are they interested in updating their profound lack of knowledge in anything that affects their life. They just want someone to blame when its crap and hope that ‘they’ will do the right things while they turn on whatever imbecilic trash they like to zombie-out to on the telly.

    Politicians are largely reactionary, they will only do what is within the basic mindset of the population and the overall zeitgeist.

    Garbage in. Garbage out.

    Dont worry though, with Brexit being the mismanaged shitshow that it promises to be ordinary people will find themselves so affected by basic economic reality that another opportunity will arise to ‘guide the herd’ towards what might be good for them.

  47. naebd
    Ignored
    says:

    What’s so inherent in the Scottish psyche going through the centuries that stops a big percentage of Scots to be against their own countries aspirations? We are quite unique on earth.

    There’s nothing inherent in our situation. The world’s full of almost-countries where a minority is in favour of that country coming into being as a state. Even Catalonia, which we sometimes look up to, has only minority support for independence at the moment.

  48. Johnny
    Ignored
    says:

    David Halliday @ 11:53:

    I agree.

    It’s good to want to build a cross-societal consensus but the Yes voters who ‘got it’ first time out shouldn’t be neglected as other groups are chased. I don’t think the Scottish electorate will ever let any party or movement away with the level of being taken for granted that, say, Scottish Labour did ever again.

  49. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    Looks like 52% want another referendum,they just don’t agree when it should be. This doesn’t mean that nobody wants one.

    There seems to be a thing that people moan about having to vote so many times in the space of a couple of years.Residents of North Korea would love that opportunity.

  50. naebd
    Ignored
    says:

    The crux as always is a viable vision of an independent Scotland. Support for a referendum is affected by that, or the lack of it.

    Many people see independence where Scotland is in the EU/SM and rUK is outside as being a tall order, and not automatically better economically than Scotland inside a brexited UK. I worry that eventually we get our referendum and the result is No again, because a compelling case can’t be made.

  51. Peter McCulloch
    Ignored
    says:

    As I said these selfish proud Brits here in Scotland care about no one but themselves.

    They will tell us, they have worked and paid for their pensions,free bus passes, free prescriptions, free personal care for the elderly etc.

    But reality is they haven’t, they may have contributed during their working life towards their pension and the freebies they enjoy.

    But they never earned enough to pay sufficient tax for what they are receiving today.

    It’s today’s working generation which are paying for all these freebies for the elderly.

    And its todays generation who will be very lucky if they are able to retire with a decent pension, far less enjoy a standard of living and the freebies the current enjoyed by the elderly.

  52. Sinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Heard Michael Gove’s digs at SNP on BBC . How is that being constructive when entering into negotiations.

  53. Artyhetty
    Ignored
    says:

    One_Scot@11.45

    Absolutely. We really do have a problem on our hands with the propaganda, brainwashing and in fact the UK state keeping people from actually finding out what is going on politically. No matter how much some have internet at their fingertips, they still believe what the bbc and daily rags tells them.

    Speaking to a unionist yesterday, and the look of surprise and shock when I said I don’t watch bbc and do not believe they are a balanced or trustworthy institution. They were very pleased to be getting their (lies) fed to them for free, being of the older generation. Could well afford to pay for the tv tax though.

    People, some, really do think that everything will turn out just hunky dory, re brexit. Have heard intelligent people saying but ‘surely it just won’t happen’, or ‘there will be another referendum’. Arggh!

    A magic wand, abracadabra! Brexit fairytale land, golden carriages, snap your heels together and, la li la…I call it the Cinderella syndrome, total fantasy, it really is a pumpkin and it’s gone rotten to boot.

    May’s magic money tree, for many communities and businesses, the actual funding from the EU, is about to be chopped down, the branches already cut back. Can the people hear the creaking tree, no, too busy watching crap tv,

  54. Free Scotland
    Ignored
    says:

    An excellent article on point 4

    “4. A second independence referendum, however, IS a viable prospect. There’s majority support for it at Holyrood, the SNP have a clear manifesto mandate for it, a vote in favour has already been passed, and a Yes vote WOULD change whether Scotland was forced out of the EU or not.”

    can be found at
    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/21/a-dangerous-narrative/

  55. Alex MacLeod
    Ignored
    says:

    Why did Yes not win in 2014. Simple answer to that is the politicians couldn’t provide definitive answers to a number of questions. Currency and EU membership being two such unanswered questions. At the moment Craig Dalzell Robin McAlpine etal are doing some sterling work on producing the answers to those and many other questions and hopefully next time around we will be better informed and have a positive plan in place for the future direction and prosperity of our country.

  56. ahundredthidiot
    Ignored
    says:

    ballpark, 50k people die in scotland every year and 50k are born.

    ballpark, 70 odd % over 55s voted no…..and 70 odd % 16-24 year olds voted yes.

    so, we can play the long game with the numbers or the short game, starting with a credible strategy around currency.

    at the moment we have nothing. nought. zip.

  57. Martin
    Ignored
    says:

    Have you borrowed Jackie Baillie’s calculator? 48% is nota majority. Be more alert.

  58. Glamaig
    Ignored
    says:

    Andrew Morton says:
    23 June, 2017 at 11:18 am
    ‘prefer to hang on in a crappy but seemingly certain situation rather than opt for a better but slightly different uncertain future.’

    Its ‘loss aversion’ and its a behaviour recognised in the financial industry:

    ‘people’s tendency to prefer avoiding losses to acquiring equivalent gains: it’s better to not lose $5 than to find $5. Some studies have suggested that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains.’
    (wikipedia)

  59. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Over thirty years of academic research into human psychology indicates behavior is shaped by mood. This is the main reason for the torrent of dishonest and generally depressing pish we Scots are subjected too, in terms of print and broadcast media. Scots can not be allowed the space to form and experience their identity under any other circumstances, as that would lead to immediate independence.

    When will Scots stand up and secure their human rights? Westminster certainly wont respected any them any better, unbound from economic reality and common decency.

  60. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    naebd-I get your point but I was really referring to countries that actually voted against their own independence. Gey few…

  61. McDuff
    Ignored
    says:

    shug
    10.44
    I agree. The SNP is far too passive and never seem to use any of the information provided by the amazing WOS but rather drone on in a monotone lacking relevant facts and without passion and belief. If I was an “undecided“ the SNP does little to inspire me towards independence.
    I have supported the SNP for nearly 40 years but of late I believe they have lost their way and though its hard to “keep the faith“ I always will.
    My main gripe is that they are concentrating too much on Brexit as the main reason for Indy2 when independence is about a lot lot more. The broken promises since `14 are enough on their own but you never hear the SNP highlighting this.
    So what happens if a good Brexit deal is achieved, where does that leave the SNP`s reason for Indy2?
    Some radical rethinking has to take place soon Brexit or no Brexit.

  62. Ian McCubbin
    Ignored
    says:

    To another union divided video on Luke Graham is on tube via PoliticsScotland Twitter account.

    I think with independence we have 4 issues, No to independence wanting to stay in EU, Yes who also want stay in Europe and both sides of Indy who want to leave EU.
    If we campus Independence and give clear message on Europe decision can be made after Independence.
    Then we will have clarity people will settle. Just now they’re confused.
    Media and Scots Tories adding to this confusion and divisiveness.

  63. Ian McCubbin
    Ignored
    says:

    Luke Graham video is via PoliticsScot Twitter

  64. ahundredthidiot
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘The SNP has nothing to do with Scottish Independence’

    Now, there’s a mantra that works for soft No’s if ever there was one

    …..who cares whether it is right or wrong….

  65. Joe of the Coutts
    Ignored
    says:

    Just heard on GMS Michael Gove (rowies, not rollies, Michael) of all people. The brass neck of the man! Totally evasive, answer another question politician as usual. He is as buffoonish as Boris and they are flying by the seat of their baggy pants – to mix metaphors. It is offensive to pay these clowns while anyone in the country is in financial hardship. Words nearly fail me, which is unusual. Even the interviewers are nonplussed by the parodies being played out.
    Even Laura Kuenssberg is frustrated.

  66. Athanasius
    Ignored
    says:

    Looking in from the outside (I’m Irish) I’ve always had serious doubts how far the SNP strategy of reasonable persuasion could take them. After three hundred years of being a very distant number two in the union, compounded by a century or so of the Labour Party’s “internationalism” (in any country, a beard for “you’re a worthless people in your own right, so just imitate your betters”), Scots were always going to need something emotional, not just rational, to get them over the final hump to independence. I have some ideas, but it’s not really my place. You’re going to have to force people to decide who they’re loyal to.

  67. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Gutless Scots are the same as gutless people the world over: they need someone to lead them. They need to follow someone who has confidence and command and who is not going to worry about breaking the rules. They will follow such a person even if, alone to their own devices, they would hesitate to act and hide behind the status quo.

    Now is the time to force the independence question; not postpone it. Now’s the time to follow our own path; not the media’s. Now’s the time for action: “legal” or otherwise.

  68. jfngw
    Ignored
    says:

    How many of the 48% don’t want a referendum because they just want independence through the election ballot box, there seems a number on this site who want that outcome. Just because you don’t want a referendum doesn’t necessarily indicate you don’t want independence.

    It’s not always possible to say the results of a poll give an accurate reflection of things.

  69. bugsbunny
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe it’s time Nicolas stopped flogging a dead horse over Brexit, and just concentrate on winning an Inderef2. FFS Nicola, please.

  70. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Joemcg @ 11.27
    I don’t think that we are unique at all.
    There are people in Ireland who base their whole lives around Westminster rule.
    They have had a get out clause for years now and still they stay.
    This is despite being fully aware of the history of the behaviour of the Westminster government, towards the Irish.
    And they can say what they like in England they ARE Irish and we ARE Scottish.
    They would if they could I suspect even bring their free part of their Island back under Westminster domination.

    While we do have our own share of those kind of fool’s,we can at least concede this is one Island and there is a bit of a case for trying to govern it as one entity.
    Although 310 years is more than enough to be able to say we tried to make it work.
    And since the English electorate don’t seem to want to change the Westminster system… I am also happy to say “it’s no you it’s us!!!!

    But Irish loyalists are beyond explanation, anymore!
    We on the other hand have half the country who don’t want the Union,,and a fair number who would leave it quite happily if they can see a better economic future,they have no great loyalty to Westminster.
    Most infact can see that Westminster doesn’t give a shit about them never has and never will.
    They probably just don’t believe that Holyrood can actually get out with Scotland’s resources and that would impact on them.
    That’s certainly the impression Westminster likes to give…we would go empty handed

    Hopefully Brexit will show once and for all.. Westminster’s ONLY power is The Illusion of Power….An island this size could not control an empire all on it’s own,it has to have conned the people of the occupied countries in to cooperating.
    That’s their only talent the bluff of a confidence trickster!

    They are bloody good at it, it has to be said.
    They even have their own population proud of an empire that they spilled their blood for but never saw any of the riches stolen from the other countries.

    They still send their children to die, to protect not them,but the Business interests abroad, while not seeing one brass hapenny of the STERLING they so proudly claimed was theirs.
    Never once thought that if it’s handed over to the bank’s how can it ever have been theirs?

    So it’s not just Scots and if I had to put money on which nation on these islands is the most conned into supporting Westminster and it’s system… I would say it was the English.

    Apart from the odd rumblings now and again about the Lord’s there’s no any sign at all they want to change how they are governed….And that’s a real shame they deserve better..

    We can’t fix it for them… especially since they happily out vote us at every turn, that’s how much they are still enthralled by Westminster….we have to go now and leave them to it!
    Hopefully one day and right soon they will wise up to it.

  71. Jack Murphy
    Ignored
    says:

    BREXIT.The European Union has sites keeping it’s EU members informed.

    “European Commission
    Brexit negotiations
    The Article 50 negotiation process and principles for the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union.”

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations_en

    ALSO PHOTO and VIDEO links:
    http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/article50/

    Personally I think this process is terrible for Scotland—-no matter how much Viceroy David Mundell tells us on TV that Scotland’s voice will be heard!!

    The Viceroy is listening—….

  72. @BoatyJames
    Ignored
    says:

    30% are saying they want another referendum not 52%. 22% are undecided and 48% don’t want one.

  73. AndyH
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s realistically a five or ten years job.

    Five if Brexit pans out to be bad. Might be shorter if it’s really bad.

    If not, then when the Golden Generation start karking it in decent numbers (ten years from now) we’ll see a big shift.

    I hope it’s sooner so we can limit the damage that will be done.

    The biggest threat now, which seems laughable, is Corbyn.

    The SNP are fighting on left and right fronts now. They let down their guard on the right front and look what’s happened.

    I truly think a new centre right Indy supporting party would split the Yoon vote big style, especially a Euro skeptic one too.

    Not everyone who wants Indy is a leftie.

  74. bugsbunny
    Ignored
    says:

    Concentrating on Brexit instead of an Inderef2 is like putting the finishing touches to the roof of your new home, but forgetting or ignoring the need to build a firm foundation first. With Inderef2 winning a majority the rest is with follow in good time. Why is it us, the punters, who can see this and the professionals either can’t see, or refuse to see this? Win Freedom first at the ballot box, then sort the rest out please Nicola.

  75. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Proof positive that a scary number of people do not “reason” things out, but just go with the flow and end up agreeing with whatever propaganda they’re exposed to.

    If we want to defeat it, start broadcasting the truth. Most people will recognise the difference, but currently, propaganda is all they’re getting.

    Broadcasting, broadcasting, broadcasting,…. Please, let us not use the ScotRef referendum to test whether propaganda works. It does work, and it’s very efficient. In fact, it gets more sophisticated and more efficient the longer we bumble on wringing our hands over what can be done about broadcasting.

    Honest to God, what will it take before we wise up?

  76. stu mac
    Ignored
    says:

    @Another Union Dividend says:
    23 June, 2017 at 10:29 am
    One Scot is right most published polls reflect the views of whoever is paying for them.
    ============================

    Not exactly, people actually do sometimes commission polls because they want information. They don’t always of course, politicians commission them to spin information. This means not all polls are 100% honestly done and results can be influenced by both the questions asked and the way that the questions are asked (and what is not asked sometimes).

    The poll quoted above – people don’t get the option “do you think this is a stupid and pointless question?” They answer as best they can and if you are asked a daft question what else can you do but answer as best you can (or refuse and somebody else less particular will answer instead). For instance in the poll quoted you get 3 (sort-of) pro-IndyRef2 answers which means at least three options were given (you’d almost think to deliberately split the pro-referendum response). You could run the poll again with slight tweaking to it and get different responses.

    This is of course an attempt to use a poll (whose results can change from week to week and by the way questions are asked) to undermine democracy (as others have already noted). We had an election which the SNP won with Indyref2 in their manifesto, followed by 2 other elections which the opposition ran anti-Indyref2 campaigns and lost. Democratically if certain conditions are met – some already have been – their is a mandate for Indyref2.

  77. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    this just confirms what i found on the doorstep when canvasing, ie, people want to know what brexit actual means before making a decision about indy…….

    then again, it was always nicola’s intent to find out what brexit actually meant before calling indyref2,

    maybe Nicola should announce she is taking indyref2 off the table, until we know what the brexit deal is ? the tories will crow with delight and hopefully fuck off on holiday to benidorm in triumph. Leaving Nicola to continue planning to do exactly what she was planning to do anyway?

    so no change, the tories are intent on carrying through with brexit negs, regardless. good. we need conformation of brexit before we can move forward.

    these polls are complicated by the issue of brexit, we need this issue settled. only then will wee see a binary split.

    btw, wanting or not wanting indyref2 isnt the same as supporting yes or no

    so take stus advice, grab a beer and sit back and watch the tories shoot themselves in the foot, once these negs are over we wos should commission a poll asking

    “do you think scotland should be an independent country?

    the answer then, I’m sure, will put the bounce back in your bungee and cause the yoons to choke on their pims

  78. Glamaig
    Ignored
    says:

    Good article in the National today about iScotland foreign currency reserves. Somebody on the last thread asked about this due to a couple of commenters on Richard Murphy’s blog suggesting we would need $50bn reserves to protect a floating currency.

    The article is about a Common Weal report which addresses that issue and outlines how we could raise $40bn. Some economists think that is too much, I get the impression if you put more than one economist in a room they will argue, (and probably both be wrong).

    While looking at this question yesterday I noticed that the UK has been steadily accumulating foreign currency reserves since the crash in 2008 (now over $150bn, $15bn of which would be ours) and I wondered why that was. This article explains that it is in case of another banking crash… so they would bail them out all over again!

  79. sensibledave
    Ignored
    says:

    Hear me out!

    Given the Rev’s numbered summary above – and then also add in the fact that the majority of voters in Scotland in the recent GE voted for Unionist parties – isn’t the only logical conclusion one can draw is that the majority of Scottish voters want Independence – but, for some reason, they cannot abide the thought of being run by Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP?

  80. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    BTW always check out Scot Goes Pop whenever polling issues are discussed. That’s what the site is for!
    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/ruth-is-reeling-after-stunning.html

  81. sensibledave
    Ignored
    says:

    … I think it was Shelock Holmes that was credited with the quote “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

  82. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    Hammer Time…

    http://imgur.com/a/OZ6AW

  83. Desimond
    Ignored
    says:

    Its all rather bleak isn’t it?

    The polls maye show support for Indy is steady, or plateaued depending on your point of view.

    I hoped the generations of No dying out would help but now im not so sure. The longer interest rates hold then more people will be sheletered behind their cheap mortgages rather than care about all other prices. Its the modern way, house first, all else second including long term future.

    Ive said enough times how I think we dropped our guard and our ball and now its spinning plates as SNP try and govern and be heard on other matters. They pegged their strategy to Brexit and thought people wanted details. That’s proven totally wrong. Brexit is a disaster but wont be in any way a decider in Independence, people wont see it as Westminsters failure, they should but they wont.

    I told my wife to mark this week in the Diary, the Vow #( what number we on now?) as Fishing and Farming rights dangled along with a Veto. Utter bollocks. Nothing is returning from Brussels. We are being hamstrung day but day and its gonna be nigh impossible to get back on our feet I fear unless some golden strategy ( or worse and god-forbid, some home based disaster) arises.

  84. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Do you want shot in the head, Yes now, or NO later
    Answer: Bit whit size wid the bullet be and could ah get….

    Polls are stupid and the people who take part in them are stupider and the folk who design the stupid questions to ask the stupid people are very clever at getting the stupid answers they want the stupid people to argue over after they’ve done it

    By and large folk will always take the easiest way out of anything it’s human nature so the clever folks at the SNP thinky department have to find a way of creating a no way out safe exit with sunshine and flowers on the other side so our fearty population don’t feel they’re taking a risk

    Bearing in mind the No surrender mob are there to stay till the bitter end as loyal till the die, until the last minute then they’ll claim they were always for Independence but it just had to be clarified

    And that’s Scotland
    Not awkward at at all eh?

  85. BBC SCOTLAND TELLS LIES
    Ignored
    says:

    Roll on IndyRef2

  86. thomaspotter
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t trust polls, end off.

    They can and are weighted and twisted to give a resultant swing to whatever the questioner wants.

    So there you go.

  87. Ian McCubbin
    Ignored
    says:

    Athanasius says we in Scotland will need to be forced to independence.
    I think he may be right. The ways to that are legal challenge on independnce to supreme court or UDI to UN.
    But maybe Athanasius will enlighten us on his ideas.

  88. Faltdubh
    Ignored
    says:

    We were a bawhair away from Independence. Although I do think Scots – if stereotyping – are naturally pessimistic and whilst the 62% EU remain vote was very high, I don’t think all of it was for being proud Europeans etc, many of those that voted to remain were fearties too, something which is ingrained in the Scottish psyche.

    We are bizzare people. Just like our sports teams – seem to produce the goods when it is too late, it doesn’t matter or we are told we are shíte (could hark that plus guilt to the high SNP GE 2017 vote)

    I don’t think we are particularly special, clever or nice either; but it is my nation and I want to see Scotland free.

    The SNP pro-EU logic hasn’t exactly worked, and not that I’m disagreeing, I thought at the time it was an excellent path to go down considering the high pro-Remain vote, but we’re never going to get that landslide vote nor arseholes like JK Rowling voting Yes anytime soon ; but we can get over 50%, 55% even and unfortunately, we probably have to sit tight for noo – at least until Brexit unravels.

    So, whilst this poll is fairly depressing. More so the 48% NO MORE REFERENDUMS Ruth Harrison party than 52% (30% have another, 22% undecided) these things do and will change.

    We are only just down the Brexit road. It is already 2-0 to the EU with the failure of agreeing to parallel talks and Junker saying May’s acceptance of EU citizens is not enough, the Brits are scrambling for relevance and will do in the talks.

    The SNP should not park the second referendum, but we should decide to continue to argue for cross-party country/region team negotiating with the EU and whilst that’ll no doubt be rejected by the Tories, don’t even mention independence until Brexit is finished (if it ever happens).

    Sit tight, it is already unraveling is about to even more so at a rapid pace.

    I have said to a few pals and on here before that we have to let the Unionists crow a bit right now, and they can to a certain extent : but the SNP still won even if they lost 20 seats. And no doubt the likely Cyberyoons will be praising this poll etc ; but folks, it’s not worth the bother.

    Just sit back and watch Brexit unfold after the summer. And we’ll see how easy this support comes back to support a second referendum/independence.

    Sit tight.

  89. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Many thoughtful posts already (and one or two less so), but for me the nub is the point made by Brian Powell back at 10:35: indy confronts the Scots with having to take responsiblity for themselves.

    It’s always been easier for us to let someone else take the hard decisions and whinge uselessly about it afterwards. Michael Portillo once referred to this mentality as “infantilisation”, although I would rather call it “institutionalisation”. We’ve been in a kind of prison for 300+ years, losing all our brightest and best, and it has left its mark.

    It’s very simple really. As a people, as it is with an individual, we just have to grow up.

    As for polls, get real. Some posters here also need to grow a pair. Too many people racked by self-doubt because of a distraction election, FGS. Where were the polls back in 2013?

    Why do you think that the Unionists are moving heaven, earth and the kitchen sink at the moment to try to persuade people that they don’t want a referendum at exactly the right time?

    It’s a battle for hearts and minds going on right now, with the people of Scotland right in the middle, just wanting a little peace that they aren’t going to get. From the Unionists at least if not from us.

    Quit the field of battle just as it’s getting started? Parking indy right now is the utterly stupidest notion possible.

  90. Ed
    Ignored
    says:

    What the average comentator doesn’t seem to grasp is that Scotland is an independant sovereign Nation now! it’s that the Scottish people choose to prostitute their country to the domination by a larger (neibour) nation, in an ilegal union, ref., 1707 and all that manipulating sculduggery.

  91. Artyhetty
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g @1.12pm

    Wow, fantastic comment Liz. I have copied it for future reference I hope you don’t mind.

    Friends in NE Eng, and family, really don’t want to hear how much their government is taking the rip out of them, how they were industrialised and kept poor, a few vanity projects to keep the workers happy the past few years. A facade. They cannot bare to hear how things could be better, and that Labour in power at WM will not really improve things in their areas. In other words, they hate any mention of how the SNP are actually working hard to improve peoples’ lives.

    Either they are in denial, or as has been an (underlying) opinion, they actually believe they are paying for Scotland to have free prescriptions, and no tuition fees, as well as the many things that the ScotGov are having to mitigate against. The attacks from WM on our most vulnerable.

    After the GE my cousin emailed to say, ‘yous must be pissed that your SNP lost so many seats’. My reply giving facts on the reasons etc, was ignored.

    So, it’s getting the idea that change is a good thing for Scotland, and that as you say, 310 years of the union, has squeezed Scotland’s ambitions and democracy until the pips squeak. Moreover, can the majority of people actually continue to believe that the English government are going to ever allow Scotland to really thrive and reach her potential. No.

    We need a 21st century outlook, and a modern and thriving country, not one held back, with wings clipped (! 🙁 ) and kept poor by the neighbours, who as you point out, couldn’t give a s**t about the people of Scotland.

    I am getting all poetic today! Let’s soar to new heights, and not allow the unionists to keep Scotland shackled any longer. It is a sink or swim situation it really is.

  92. crazycat
    Ignored
    says:

    As Capella points out, Scot Goes Pop has an article about this poll.

    He reminds us that it is not properly weighted, so it is anyone’s guess how much credibility the results have. (He’s otherwise quite up-beat about it.)

    So although there may be cognitive dissonance in evidence among the people sampled by that poll, that does not necessarily extrapolate to the population at large.

  93. Mike
    Ignored
    says:

    There are still people in Scotland who believe we can stay in the UK and the EU and there are people who don’t want to stay in either the UK and EU.

    And all of them are voting for either the Conservatives the Libdems or Labour.

  94. Scott
    Ignored
    says:

    Gove ‘encouraged’ by talks with Scottish ministers

    Having seen this on BBC website with comments allowed I posted regarding a Peterhead fisherman and what he said about our FM,having just switched on I found 2emails saying my post broke the house rules and the article has disappeared from BBC I wonder why.

    Posting:

    I would like to know if Gove met this person and if he agrees with what he had to say about our First Minister.
    Having emailed Ruth Davidson regarding this she has not replied but I really did not expect one.

    . Below it can be found references to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon as “one deluded BITCH!!” and he also called on Prime Minister Theresa May to “F-K the Nationlst Bitch!!.

  95. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t really get the ‘waiting to see what Brexit deal there is’. If 7 years of Tories and a year of total ineptitude from Brexiters isn’t a wake up, not sure what will be.

    It’s not a matter of soft or hard Brexit, it is do voters want to continue letting the Tories decide our future. They only way making sure for a very, very long time is Independence, and do we really want to leave it to Westminster(Tory or Labour), loaded with English MPs to decide who gets what?

    If people think the country is divide now wait until the post Bresxit diminishing pot is divided up. Tories will look after Tory areas, Labour will look after Labour areas. Each will grab as much from the rest of the country as they can. Scotland will be easy pickings for resources because we haven’t shown we are willing to protect them.

  96. Derek Henry
    Ignored
    says:

    I See the national newspaper and common space are trying to answer the currency quesion using a guy called Peter Ryan talking about foreign currency reserves.

    Another huge mistake by the Indy movement I’m afraid. For the love of christ why don’t they talk to the experts on the issue.

    It looks like Peter Ryan is somewhat confused. He suggests that Scotland should float its own currency but then describes how you defend a fixed exchange rate system. It also looks like he believes in bond vigilantes.

    You only need to go to wikipedia to see the flaws in his arguements. Even wikipedia states in a free floating system you don’t need to protect your foreign currency reserves. It’s why most countries moved from fixed exchange rates to free floating ones.

    If a government chooses a fixed exchange rate policy, and simultaneously attempts to achieve full employment, it could very well lose its foreign exchange reserves. Interest rates would be rising, as expressed by the forward price of the currency falling while the spot price is being supported by a diminishing pool of fx reserves. This could happen with either a bse program, or a more traditional spending increase.

    In any case the higher interest rates may accelerate the loss of fx reserves in two ways. First, higher rates could reduce business profits and consumer spending, slowing the economy and reducing tax liabilities. Second, the higher rate of interest the government must pay to borrow itself puts more of that currency into private sector hands in the form of interest income.

    Furthermore, if the government attempts to tighten fiscal policy it may slow down the economy and thereby reduce tax liabilities, weaken the currency and lose fx reserves.

    That being said, if the tax liabilities happened to grow faster than government spending due to the nature of the tax structure and the institutional lending structure, such growth could be associated with currency strength.

    With a floating rate currency however, interest rates are set exogenously( there’s no such thing as bond vigilantes interest rates are set by the central bank) and fx reserves are not at risk. Therefore full employment policy can achieve full employment with no risk of loss of fx reserves. However, the currency could depreciate.

    Japan has proved this for decades now and has completely debunked mainstream economic theory on this issue. As you can quite clearly see from the link provided below

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=34830

    The argument can be made that full employment policy could result in the depreciation of the fx value of the currency. However, one must look at the effect on imports and exports to determine the policy implications. If total imports remain the same, and only the distribution of imports changes, the macro effect is only the redistribution of the consumption of the imports. If imports increase, at the macro level the welfare of the population is enhanced. The only reason to trade at all is to import. So only if total unit volume of imports falls could the case be made that welfare has been diminished.

    Likewise, exports are the macro cost of imports. The combination is called the terms of trade. Maximising unit volume of imports relative to exports is how a population maximises its terms of trade. For example, if unit volume of imports increases more than exports due to currency depreciation, the country is better off.

    I have yet to see anyone make the case that full employment policy decreases the terms of trade through currency depreciation, induced by any additional national income due to increased net government expenditures.

    Furthermore, without full employment, the concept of comparative advantage does not exist, and trade often simply serves to facilitate a race to the bottom. Business and production flows to areas with the most unemployment and the lowest labour costs. So to attract foreign enterprise a nation must maintain high levels of unemployment as well as offer high profit potential. Neither is good for the domestic population. This pitiful yet near universal policy is being further perpetuated by a fundamental and costly misunderstanding of how currencies operate.

    A job guarentee is how you do that. You concentrate on domestic demand.

    MMT economists are concerned about how you provide full employment *and* price stability. We already know from the post war approach that if you go for full employment you get inflation. The existence of wage/price spirals is in the preface of the 2nd edition of ‘Full employment in a free society’ and was a concern in 1960 before it blew up completely in the 1970s. And we know from the neoliberal era that if you hold inflation you get unemployment – so much so the mainstream redefined unemployment as ‘full employment’ as a workaround. The problem in both cases is that they address only aggregate demand, not effective demand.

    The job guarentee allows you to stabilise both aggregate demand and aggregate supply by removing capital’s power to dictate wages *and* capital’s power over supplying the source of wages and the output it generates.

    As Warren Mosler puts it – the Job Guarantee *is* an incomes policy.

    The majority of just want to put back in place Beveridge style aggregate demand management without anything substantive to address the price stability issue.

    Anyways I’ve forwarded the currency white papers to Prof Bill Mitchell and other MMT economists to analyse. Who are experts around the accounting and flow of funds sectoral balances approach.

    Stephanie Kelton manged to convince the Bank Of England to use this approach last Summer.

    https://bankunderground.co.uk/2016/10/26/a-dynamic-model-of-financial-ba

    I’m pretty sure the white papers are going to be torn apart because they are very confused indeed. It is a bad day for us when all our opponents need is wikipedia to destroy our main arguement.

  97. tatu3
    Ignored
    says:

    Look at all the numpties who voted for the disaster of brexit that is now unfolding. Look at all the numpties who voted this disaster of a UK government in. But I don’t believe they can all be numpties just an awful lot of misinformation out there. Not even politicians or experts have the right answers, so how are the public able to make an informed vote on anything?

    Personally, and I have no idea if this could be done, but I think the Scottish government should,as they have the majority, say right we are having independence, we know what is best for Scotland, we are the “parents” and you are the “children” “we are doing this for your own good”. “You’ll thank us after”.

  98. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    If there really is NO APPETITE for a referendum to even take place, then it reasonably follows that support for indy should be nowhere near enough to come near 50% nevermind win.

    If i was a unionist, i would be ABSOLUTELY DEMANDING there is a referendum NOW.

    No waiting until later when support might increase after a disasterous brexit and shambles at WM.

    Where is this demand to hold a referendum RIGHT NOW while there is ZERO hope (apparently) for Yes winning ?

    If Yes lose the next referendum, indy is dead for decades, and the SNP could be severely damaged.

    Such a prize in waiting for unionists winning a referendum the unionists claim the Yes campaign cannot win and nobody wants in the first place..!!

    Yet, here they are, running scared from even having such a referendum which, according to every unionist with a poll result, will crush the indy dream for decades if not forever.

    Where is the screaming headlines…”lets have the damn referendum and crush them once and for all” ?

    A mild cynic would think they are talking through a hole in their Union flag.

  99. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Derek Henry @ 14:47,

    No need to launch into paroxyms of anguish over a new currency. It’s called a debate, and this is the start of it. And high time too.

    That’s the point. Keep the kettle on the boil, not lying down hoping indy will all sort itself out on its own somehow. By magic or something.

  100. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    “Its all rather bleak isn’t it?”

    Are you for real??

    For months now we’ve been watching the Yoons froth and lather themselves up into a frenzy of “Take IndyRef2 off the table!” “Naebody wannts a 2nd Referendum!” Comical as hell.

    Mind you, perhaps if they’d said “Please!” Nicola might have given their desperate pleas a nano second of thought before parking IndyRef2 right on that big effing Brexit negotiating table.

    Bleak, yae say? I’m am laughing my nuts off at them right now. So should you. Yoons desperate as fuck – what’s no’ tae like? What’s bleak about that? You can smell their fear every time they open their mouths and spew endless grabage all over our tellies and radios courtesy of BBC Pravda.

    And the biggest laugh?

    We haven’t even STARTED yet! Just wait and see what they’ll be like when we get the YES band back together.

    LMBHAO

  101. T.roz
    Ignored
    says:

    Just watched Iain Blackford on QT, he is very good.

  102. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    I remain optimistic despite everything.

    There an not so old adage – achieving independence is too big a job for the Scots alone, we need the help of the Tories.

    The current generation of Tories appear to be the most bungling incompetent set of wannabe politicians I have certainly ever seen. No plans, no skills, no ideas. Yet they are embarking on a suicidal dissassociation with the EU and relentlessly driving the breakup of their state.

    Not to mince words – they are going to fck up big time.

    We are still in the eye of the prefect storm, and it seems quiet. We have a strong Scottish government with a triple mandate to call an independence referendum, concurrent with a Tory driven political crisis.

    Just wait till the winds pick up and the true nature of Brexit and the implications for Scotland become impossible to hide any longer.

    Stead as we go!

  103. gus1940
    Ignored
    says:

    Nicola will undoubtedly as expected make her announcement next week that the Indyref2 proposals democratically agreed on and triple locked remain firmly on the table and will continue to do so until such time as the Brexit terms are known when the vote will take place.

    She should include in her announcement the old question never answered by the Bad Guys – Why, if Scotland is a parasite subsidised by English Taxpayers, is Westminster so desperate to hold on to us especially given the fact that supporting state subsidised enterprises is and never has been Tory policy and that the reason for their current desperation to get Indyref2 taken off the table is that without Scotland’s assets as bargaining chips in the Brexit negotiations The UK is naked.

    She should also mention that The UK as a whole has a massive Balance of Trade Deficit while Scotland has a surplus with the obvious point that with Scotland independent Little England will be even further down The Swanee financially.

    The important thing for Nicola to do is to phrase the announcement so that without including the above prominently it will be impossible for broadcasters and the Dead Tree bunch not to include it by clever editing and that if they try that dodge the statement just won’t make sense – a difficult task but surely not impossible.

  104. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Proud Cybernat says:

    We haven’t even STARTED yet! Just wait and see what they’ll be like when we get the YES band back together.

    Exactly!

    We have had a relentless anti Indy campaign for two years now. And it’s been getting ramped up higher and higher.

    Simultaneously, Yes have just been ticking away in the background. The only real move has been putting a conditional second referendum on the table. But no significant Yes campaigning.

    “Just wait” until Brexit is clearly going to be a shite show, ScotRef is announced, and we all fire up our motors!

  105. Derek henry
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s a very bad day for us when all our opponents need to do is use wikipedia to debunk our main message.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-exchange_reserves

    ” In a pure flexible exchange rate regime or floating exchange rate regime, the central bank does not intervene in the exchange rate dynamics; hence the exchange rate is determined by the market. Theoretically, in this case reserves are not necessary. Other instruments of monetary policy are generally used, such as interest rates in the context of an inflation targeting regime.”

    Bangs head on desk.

  106. boomshanka
    Ignored
    says:

    Yeah despair because what’s happening right now is solid proof that Scots are a bunch of fucking morons. If 2014 wasn’t proof enough then just take a look at the last general election.

    Scottish people are supporting political parties the way they support football teams and it’s a fucking embarrassment. The SNP bad position is now beyond a joke. I’d love to round up every woman who placed a tactical vote just ‘cos they don’t like the SNP, put them in a fucking time machine and have them explain themselves to the the women who committed their lives to ensuring that they had the right to vote … then round up every male who voted tactically and have their right to vote removed, along with their baws preferably.

    “Democracy” … I dunno about this.

    Independence isn’t going to happen. The majority of this country are too fucking stupid. I’d put all your energy into just making sure we have the best government possible.

  107. naebd
    Ignored
    says:

    What the average comentator doesn’t seem to grasp is that Scotland is an independant sovereign Nation now!

    If true, this is a gamechanger that renders talk of a second referendum somewhat irrelevant.

  108. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    …and when the YES band get back together we someone like THIS INSPIRATIONAL leader to take charge of it…

    http://imgur.com/Tchfi3N

    Personally I think the SNP leadership should take a back seat and let the Indy2 Campaign be led by someone like the guy above; someone who can inspire a compelling vision of a New Scotland that is within touching distance and who has the skills to ensure that the masses buy into that vision and take ownership of it – a ‘people’s champion’ enabling the people with a better future.

    By keeping the politicos at arms length from the debate, then we empower ourselves because WE then frame the debate – ‘the people’ against ‘the Establishment’. A People’s Movement – NOT a political aspiration by just one or two political parties. And BBC Pravda will have a much harder time making a genuine People’s Movement all about one politician’s ‘vanity project’ and cannot easily demonise anyone in the way they did to Salmond and are trying to do with Sturgeon.

    We need to get EVERYONE from every background on board. We can only do that with an apolitical People’s Movement.

    We got it partly right in IndyRef1 with the YES campaign. But it took time for that grassroots campaign to fully flourish into a genuine People’s Movement. Next time we must do that right from the get-go. And Blair Jenkins – lovely guy but just no where near the inspirational orator YES2 campaign will need.

    Let the SNP work behind the scenes sorting currency, EU negotiations etc. They should not take part in any TV / Radio debates because that simply allows the BritNat Establishment to fight on the ground of THEIR choosing, framing the debate in their own corrupt way. The BBC can ask our inspirational leader all the important questions and all they need do is reply in a similar manner as the guy in the image (link) above.

    IR2 should be all about the vision of a better Scotland; not a perfect Scotland but a wealthier, healthier and happier Scotland; a Scotland where we finally stand on our own two feet and finally stop whinging and take full, adult responsibility for ourselves.

    So – who is this inspirational orator we need? Names?

  109. Scottish Steve
    Ignored
    says:

    Well if Scots vote No again, they deserve every bit of shit Westminster throws at them. It’ll teach them a lesson, that their votes have consequences. Knowing our Proud Scots But, they will gladly remain British while Westminster pummels them, and blame those nasty Nats in Edinburgh for all their problems and all of Scotland’s problems.

    Too bad Yes voters will need to suffer alongside them for their nationalism.

  110. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    The Scottish electorate wha’es like them? The abysmally stupid?

  111. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    @boomshanka 3:37pm

    “The majority of this country are too fucking stupid. I’d put all your energy into just making sure we have the best government possible”.

    Thing is, boomshanka, these same stupid cowards would give all the credit to Westminster, not Holyrood. Independence must take precedence over everything else.

  112. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Yup bob p, their politics consist of f**k ra Pope,and,we arra peeple.

  113. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    People tend to not like change. Its psychology. I still walk past Snickers bars and want my Marathon back. Tesco’s flogging a metre of Snickers bars and it is so annoying. I could beat to death the wonk that scrapped Marathon for Snickers, with that metre of Snickers and probably get off with it, if the jury is even remotely sane and 50+.

    Is change inevitable?

    Relentlessly savage BBC Scotland gimpery, finally forces out the SNP from Holyrood 2021. They already cut another dozen or so SNP MP”s from Westminster, Iron Lady 2.0 First Minister Ruth Davidson rules the Scotch for Britannia, in her Scotland region, so Tory Brexit reign and Empire 2.0 had better be a thing that’s for sure.

    Some yoon dingdongs really believe in it. Its all in the spin. You’re poorer, everything is more expensive, you don’t get a pay rise for another UKOK decade, its harder to find work, tax goes up and up, but by christ no one will draw a border between this precious precious UKOK union.

    TGIF.

  114. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Give the claim credit it doesn’t deserve, but even suppose there was a dent support for Independence and a referendum once Brexit was clear, transport yourself forward a year to 18 months from now, when getting dragged out of Europe is an imminent reality, and the UK Trade Deals we’ve heard so much about are about as substantial as the promises and vows Westminster made to Scotland before YES2014.

    That’s when we’ll be having the referendum, and IF for some godforsaken reason the ScotRef had been shelved, just imagine how we’d all be kicking ourselves to have squandered our only realistic chance of a secure future in Europe.

    The only thing that worries me is the wall to wall propaganda. In Orwell’s 1984, the Ministry of Truth had the job of air brushing history and rewriting it. Here in 21st Century Scotland, the propagandists are re-writing the history before it’s even written down as history in the first place. Witness the Tory election victory of 13 seats in 59. Witness the “no appetite for a second referendum” horseshit when half the damned country would take Independence tomorrow and nearly every man Jack of them feels cheated by the appalling betrayal of the 2014 promises.

    The BBC and Tories are playing with your heads people of Scotland. The UK is heading for an economic and socially divisive tailspin, and in due course, we are going to be mightily glad that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP has provided Scotland with a parachute.

    The Unionists need Scottish Independence crushed, because the UK without Scotland is an economic basket case, and Westminster cannot afford to lose face by having England labouring in a swamp of austerity, hardship, class division and xenophobic isolation while up here, Scotland grows from strength to strength forging new and closer ties with the progressive initiatives happening in Europe and Scandinavia, and developing a low carbon green economy which will become the envy of the world.

    Look at what the Unionists do to our new and political debate. They cannot countenance the possibility of us even discussing the mere practicalities of Independence without foaming at the mouth.

    Look at the Rev’s highlighted Tweet. All the Unionists have to do to sink ScotRef is vote No in the same numbers they did last time. Ask yourself why they’re so shit scared of another referendum.

  115. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Boomshanka3.37pm .these women in their late fifties who voted against the snp. wonder how many of them are members of waspi?.who the f**k do they think increased their state pension age. It certainly wasn’t Nicola sturgeon or the snp. Stupid,stupid people. Who give intelligent women a bad name.

  116. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    boomshanka says:
    23 June, 2017 at 3:37 pm
    Yeah despair because what’s happening right now is solid proof that Scots are a bunch of fucking morons.

    You’re ignoring the incredible SNP bad, indy worse propaganda that belches out of BBC Scotland alone surely?

    This is what propaganda is all about, brain washing people into accepting stuff that you want them too. Its being going on since we we lived in caves.

    People want to conform and if Aunty BBC is both schmoozing you and raging at you to be British and conform, that is probably what you’ll do, just get some peace.

  117. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    If I was the government in Scotland I would be increasing income tax. My defence being that we have to mitigate the Tory cuts and bad policies that the people in the North East voted to maintain.

    I would let WM do what the hell they like with fishing and agriculture. Hell mend them. Why should the SG continually help these people when they are so narrow minded and ungrateful and can’t see the truth.

    They want all the benefits of the SNP polices but refuse to give the SNP any credit. When anything happens at a UK level it is blamed on the SNP.

    I would say to Ruth Davidson , there you go I have increased income tax to pay for your WM government cuts and rape clauses and bedroom taxes.

  118. jfngw
    Ignored
    says:

    As for the Mundell threat to Sturgeon, he is correct in one sense because if we hold Indyref2 and lose she will probably resign. On the other hand if we win his future is perpetual opposition in an independent Scotland or in the Unitary Kingdom House of Lords, for Scotland sake lets hope he chooses the later.

  119. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Its not funny coz its true. Oh I do so hope First Minister Ruth Davidson is everything tory BBC Scotland gimps say she is. We’l need a strong stable Scottish Conservative and Unionist First Minister like Ruth D, just to lead Scotland through such a difficult time.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/the-revenge-of-the-uk-electorate-for-brexit-will-be-brutal-1.3125487

  120. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Proud cybernat 3.48pm. If mother teresa herself could come back and lead the snp. The msm and BBC scum would demonise and vilify her.

  121. bob
    Ignored
    says:

    Looks like the Rev thinks most of the Scottish electorate are a parcel of rogues.

  122. ahundredthidiot
    Ignored
    says:

    if scotland is a basket case, i will buy her for a pound.

    if she is viable, i will biy her for ten trillion….money grows on trees don’t you know….

  123. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Tatu3 2.49pm. Agree ,it’s what the torys would do with a majority government.so why not us?.

  124. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Spring 2019 – at the latest – regardless of Westminster and brexit. Set it now. Or what Tatu3 said.

  125. Desimond
    Ignored
    says:

    @Proud Cybernat
    re Bleak

    I have no idea what you’re laughing at.
    The Westminster mob are a laughing stock defo but ultimately they will be laughing tears of joy while we stay sitting in tears of self harm.

    I don’t hold the same fascination with Brexit buffoonery or the idiots who lead up or worse, claim to hold our reins…says more about us than it does about them in a Trainspotting Scottish philosophy way.

    I fear the YES car has stalled rather than its sitting in a lay-by pending a green light. Brexit is not the jump start and wont be a factor in anyone in Scotland changing their mind, even those blinkered industries in North East and Borders will still cling on blindly saying “They wouldn’t turn their back, it will be okay soon..they promised”

    I see no scenario currently that can be used as leverage to kick on the campaign, the holding pattern is here to stay and that for me is not something to smile at as the longer it sits, the harder it is for any momentum to be made.

    I sadly fear, whilst praying I’m wrong, that the people who await a grand eye opening moment in the Scottish No mindset will have quite a wait.

    We await a new Messiah, I don’t think they are even on the radar at present, we will need someone to step up in next 5 years or so to carry the flame forward. A person of heart and voice and inspiration.

  126. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    An english friend of mine on the phone recently asking about buying a business in Scotland.the the advice i gave him was,wait till after the next indy referendum. Because if Scotland lose it,would you really think you’d be welcome here?.

  127. Almannysbunnet
    Ignored
    says:

    You have to wonder if the sole purpose of these polls is to sap our strength and create despair. Every other day there’s a poll telling us we’re divided, weak and in the minority and yet you have Mundell & Davidson flapping about the country demanding that independence is taken off the table. The Unionist parties have been screaming about it right through the council and general elections and are still at it. If all these polls are accurate why the hysterical calls for the dropping of a second referendum? Nah I smell shite.

  128. Scottish Steve
    Ignored
    says:

    @Bob p

    What do you mean by that? Why would he not be welcome here? Are you saying that if the Yes side loses the next referendum, that anger will transform into anti-Englishness?

    I highly doubt the majority of Yes voters would be that bitter. English people, like all other people, will always be welcome in Scotland, no matter its constitutional status.

  129. North chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    Excellent post from ” Breeks@ 0403. As the EU are going to play ” hardball”
    with UK then very probably Tories will want to delay and delay final outcome until AFTER
    the date of the next Holyrood election ( for obvious reasons). They might attempt an ” interim
    agreement” which could more or less be ” continuing membership” during the interim period.They most certainly wish to get our FM out of office at the next Holyrood election, and this will be medium term goal prior to any final Brexit deal .
    The FM has the ” loaded gun” mandate for a second referendum in her hand ( hence Mundell, Davidson ,Rennie etc. all with their hands in the air screaming “don’t shoot lay down your weapon” is the desperate , demented plea . They know that she cannot be ” disarmed ” until the next Holyrood election . All I can say is ” make the most of it FM” as if your opponents ” get the gun” it will be all smiles and ” shoot first & ask questions later” .

  130. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    “I have no idea what you’re laughing at.
    The Westminster mob are a laughing stock defo but ultimately they will be laughing tears of joy while we stay sitting in tears of self harm.”

    Naw – they’ll be bawling their effing eyes oot when Scotland says, “Cheerio – nice knowin’ ya! Oh – and thanks for the fish!”

    See it. Believe it. It’s comin’:

    http://imgur.com/URbGiDv

  131. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    If Holyrood sets an exact date for IndyRef2 – in Spring 2019 – in the next week or so, what will Westminster’s reaction be? They will arrogantly declare Scotland can’t have another referendum. Holyrood says, “Aye right. You an’ whose army?!” Thus we have the spur we’re looking for. Time for Holyrood to kick old mare Westminster in the flabby flanks.

  132. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Christ we’re great at destroying ourselves, we don’t need much in the way of a push tae get stuck right intae self imploding these day dae we?

    Keep it up, I’m fucking blind sided by the strength of unity on display since that election, the one where voters gave the majority to those candidates from the SNP. But that’s no how it works any mair apparently, now people are genuinely falling for the ‘notion’ ‘that the combined vote share of all other party’s, whose candidates are on the ballot paper, having not achieved ‘more than’ the actual candidate who actually did win in those constituencies, are now regarded as the ‘overall’ winners in any election in the UK’

    Stunning int it? Why aren’t those combined vote share winners now heading down tae Westminster?

    Oh that’s right, because they fucking lost! Nicola Sturgeon wasn’t on the ballot paper. She’d already won in 2016 in the SE.

    Oh and just in case it isn’t clear, to the numpty who perpetually goes on about ‘how we are voting for individual MP’s on the ballot’, I’d like to know what the combined voteshare was for all the other party’s candidates on your ballot paper in your constituency, and ask are you going to apply that ridiculous logic to your own chosen representative’s ‘win’? In effect if there are 5 different party’s in contention, with a 100 votes cast, your candidate gets 32, the others 23, 20, 17, 8.

    Who fucking won? Does it take away your candidate’s legitimacy as the ‘winner’ because the combined votes of all the other party’s on the ballot are what now ‘count’ and therefore ‘their’ manifesto’s should be implemented?

    Seriously pish on stilts.

  133. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Aye bob p, Whit’s that about? Don’t recall a backlash after we lost the last time? Way tae go making oot yer ain are a bunch o’ thugs.

    (Fuck is there no end tae this lashing oot at ourselves)

    *pnones brother of 30 years living in Kent, warning him not tae come hame cause cause ahm gonnae chib him and his ‘english’ family if we lose a referendum*

  134. Mike
    Ignored
    says:

    Well until we can do something about the MSM in Scotland people are going to continue to vote through ignorance and misinformed knowledge.

  135. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    The only thing the people of Scotland lack is self-confidence. (As even observed in some of the later postings here.)

    So of course that’s the weak spot the Unionists attack. Funny kind of aspirational leaders whose sole purpose is to make everything appear as dismal as possible!

    One of the best aspects of indyref1 was the beginnings of that awakening of self-confidence. It’s a harder job reaching through to enough more softies, who right now would really prefer a quiet life – the one that Brexit just isn’t going to give them anyway – but it can be done. As the Unionists know and fear more than anything.

    Self-confidence, that’s all we need. Anything which re-awakens that among yessers and attracts over a decent bunch of former “no”s will get us there.

  136. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    K1 @ 17:06,

    “Snap!”

    (Maybe some concern trolling comin’ in today too?)

  137. stewartb
    Ignored
    says:

    Bob p @:23 June, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    “An english friend of mine on the phone recently asking about buying a business in Scotland.the the advice i gave him was,wait till after the next indy referendum. Because if Scotland lose it,would you really think you’d be welcome here?”

    Bad advice I contend (and that’s a very polite response): your assertion is not well-founded. And in addition, all ‘yessers’ I know realise that Scotland needs ‘migrants’ and inward investors regardless of its constitutional status.

    Encourage your friend to come, prosper …. and also learn more about Scotland, its people and the case for Indy for him/herself. And I trust your friend is not now communicating your jaundiced ‘opinion’ to contacts in England as in any way factual or typical. I hope you agree and will perhaps retract your advice. (Unless of course your mischievous purpose is to misinform?)

    Your comment brings to mind this quotation from Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham, who in 1934 became the first president of the SNP:

    “The enemies of Scottish nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”

  138. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    K1 we can debate/argue this topic till the cows come home. Nobody’s talking about chibbing anyone. All I’ve said if half a million southern immigrants vote as they did last time (which no doubt a lot of them will).we will lose indy ref2. Are you telling me this won’t cause resentment in some quarters,or does that make me a racist now.for stating the obvious?.

  139. gordoz
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry but it all comes down to the indigenous population being the majority, those who with allegiance to Scotland (Scots)and those who consider themselves British (Subscots).

    The Brits amongst us ‘Subscots’ are the problem, not English residents or any other national living here.

    The ‘Cap in hand lot’ I’m alright jack types. Sadly I just think we will be forced to wait for them to die out.
    Bring on the cold winters & hope yon Tory farmers / fishermen
    In the NE, Shetland, Orkney & the borders get what they deserve and that’s
    F… All!!!

  140. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Bob p at 5.34

    Can you supply an evidence about how the LESS THAN 500,000 southern immigrants voted.

    Most of the young “southern” immigrants I know voted YES and most of the old ones voted NO – bit like the the rest of the resident population actually. The majority of the southern immigrants are non economically active retired persons whom we have to persuade not accuse

  141. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    “All I’ve said if half a million southern immigrants vote as they did last time (which no doubt a lot of them will).we will lose indy ref2.”

    And I wager if even HALF of those good English folks who have made Scotland their home baulk at the clusterfuckonbananastilts that is BREXIT and who see IndyRef2 as a chance for them to remain in Scotland they will grab that chance with both hands and all ten of their toes.

    All we have to do is convince a majority of old and new Scots to see that Indy is in their (much) better interests. That’s all. If they live and work here and are invested in Scotland’s well-being then they get to vote here.

    End of.

  142. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    “..remain in Scotland AND the EU…”

  143. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    United Kingdom, the ‘Hotel California’ of unions.

  144. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Life in a country that’s not in a farce union with its neighbour, actual meaning ofcourse the bigger neighbour runs the smaller,

    http://archive.is/yuN8z

    Thursday 22 June 2017 18.01 BST First published on Thursday 22 June 2017 15.23 BST

    Norway has issued a blunt threat to Brazil that if rising deforestation in the Amazon rainforest is not reversed, its billion-dollar financial assistance will fall to zero. The leaders of the two nations meet in Oslo on Friday.

    The oil-rich Scandinavian nation has provided $1.1bn to Brazil’s Amazon fund since 2008, tied to reductions in the rate of deforestation in the world’s greatest rainforest. The destruction of forests by timber and farming industries is a major contributor to the carbon emissions that drive climate change and Norway views protecting the Amazon as vital for the whole world”

    Its a stark thought though, Scotland could easily have been like Norway too. Instead we’re shackled to an odd country, fore lock tugging, royals groveling, insular, exceptionalism, dripping nostalgia, with predilections for very hot wars, in hot defenceless countries, too far away to be a real threat because they joyfully believe they win all wars, like WW2.

    On well, hope all the red and blue tory roasters and zoomers in Scotland are right about British Empire 2.

  145. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill. I don’t have the link,but the evidence can be Googled. And sadly you’ll never persuade the colonel blimps. Anyhow that’s my tuppence worth.

  146. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    Proud cybernat. 5.46pm I hope your right,and fervently hope im wrong,but time will tell

  147. Daisy Walker
    Ignored
    says:

    EVERY CAR IS A BILLBOARD

    This time – and the time is now – this time, it remains the job of the SNP to be the Nice, Positive, Responsible, Boring Political Party.

    This time however, the YES Movement needs to play the Project Fear card. Project Fear is shit, but it WORKS and thats the shittiest thing about it. We can no longer leave it on the shelf. And we need to do it now. Over and over. To counter the Beeb and the papers. Social Media is covered. Printed media not so much. TV too damned expensive.

    So, if you have a home printer, get it into gear, start printing off what you can, and get it out there. No-one else is going to do so. Certainly not the SNP. Every car is a Billboard.

    And at least there is a mountain of posters to work with, we don’t have to wait, just go to Indy poster boy, and start from there.

    YES can of course, keep getting positive facts out there, like the true state of our countries assets, but Brexit, is shaping up to be an economic disaster, an immigration disaster, a human rights disaster, a public healthcare disaster.

    The Rape Clause Tories want Cheap Labour and Shit Laws. Burn Down All Our Houses.
    The SNP cannot politicise a tragedy… but we can.

    Brexit means desperate, half arsed trade deals with India, China, Brazil – the cost of which is INCREASED IMMIGRATION. This point cannot be highlighted by the SNP. But it is factually correct – see

    BBC Commonsense Politics 21/3/17 Jacob Rees-Mogg interview on You Tube.

    JRM ‘we’ve got to look to the International Field rather than the narrow sphere… China, India, Brazil…’

    Interviewer, ‘Teressa May has been to India and agreed to relax visa regulation, so that could lead to more immigration.’

    JRM, ‘ It may very well be in our National interest to have more Indian IT immigrants coming in, rather than a bunch of Bulgarians coming in without so much as a by your leave.’

    For those who voted Leave because of Immigration – wake up. Never trust a Tory.

    Emotionally and economically – Indy for Scotland and staying in the Single Market or the EU is now the ‘status quo’, the least amount of change, the most amount of stability.

    We need to stop playing nice – the big tory farmers – the ones who rely on EU workers to get the crops in. We need our EU pals to start social media publishing this 2 facedness and avoiding these farms. Make it really hard for them to get the pick of the worker crop.

    Sons and Daughters of the soil and they betray their own country for a bung. If it is possible to boycott individual farmers’ produce we should be doing it.

    The yes voting farmers get all our support.

    The fishermen – laugh at them, ridicule them, they don’t deserve anything less. 14000 lorries a day leave Britain for the EU, and the same number enters – and the Tories have no plan for this in any shape or form. And that is who they vote for – idiots, absolute idiots.

    Next time QT is in Scotland, we need a YES rally outside the venue with drums and pipes and, rattles and whistles and pneumatic drills, and the noise only stops when the single solitary panelist representing Scotland is speaking.

    SNP + YES covers all the bases, the positive and the Project Fear stuff.

    YES WE CAN – NOW WE MUST

  148. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    he evidence shows that the southern immigrant population voted NO in about the same percentage as our own retired age group.

    There are more pressing concerns with the retired non economically active immigrants who do not bring children,closing our rural schools in the process and making it impossible for our own folk to buy housing or small businesses in their own areas.

    These are not bad people and we should understand that but we have to somehow balance the effect they are having in our rural communities. They are with us however and there is not a lot can be done and in the short term significant numbers of them have to be persuaded to vote yes. Exactly the same as with our own old population.

  149. Scotrock
    Ignored
    says:

    When I first supported the SNP (1974) I was told , by a Greenock Labour Councillor, that ” the SNP is a wasted vote. You would be better to vote labour” At that time I think the SNP got 13% of the vote. Scotland’s independence has come a long way since then.
    We will prevail and eventually win

  150. Macbeda
    Ignored
    says:

    A priority for Scot Gov is to identify and treat the endemic stupid gene from Brexi supporters.

  151. scotrock
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland will Flourish – we will

  152. scotrock
    Ignored
    says:

    Just listen to the Corries “Who”ll take the ball from Maggie Thatcher:
    Brings a wee smile

  153. Legerwood
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T

    I see the BBC has finally got around to reporting on Ms Davidson’s honorary rank in the Signals Corp – suitably illustrated with picture of Ms D on a tank with Union Jack.

  154. scottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    Rarely watch reporting scotland.
    What a bloody joke.
    We are all safe though because of the RAFs quick reaction force so that’s a relief.

  155. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    For what it’s worth I don’t think the following helps:

    1. “Tory scum” being used in everyday discourse as a default.
    2. Scottish independence being linked to some kind of quest for a socialist utopia.
    3. Historical references prior to, say, the 1970s.
    4. The idea that pensioners are uniquely self-interested.

    An independent Scotland will be shaped by the people living in it from the date it is created. Everyone will have a say and part to play.

    If there is to be some kind of “game changer”, it will be the end of people voicing what seem like strict preconditions to independence.

  156. Djdeeprub
    Ignored
    says:

    As with a few other posters I think the “people are stupid” trope is lazy and ultimately stops us digging deeper into what might motivate people to move in our direction.

    A couple of thoughts which might lie behind the “not another indyref” sentiment out there…

    – As a citizenry we were threatened remorselessly by the British state and its surrogates leading upto Sept2014. Bad stuff was wished on us by the most powerful people and institutions in the land. People internalize that and perhaps understandably think they’d rather not have those threats being dished again any time soon. I know we are taught to stand up to bullies but many Scots are in my view at the stage of blaming the victim for attracting the bully’s ire.

    – in a similar psychological vein I sense from several conversations that many Scots didn’t enjoy the strained conversations that the indyref provoked with friends, neighbours and families. While I enjoyed the political awakenings and the utopian thinking of the Yes movement I also regret losing some friends, having awkward conversations with family members at the breakfast table, and finding out that I didn’t know neighbors as well as I thought I did. Do people want to go through that social friction so soon after the last time? While like most of us here I think this potential awkwardness is worth it if we can get a more cohesive and fairer nation as a result, I know that the social bonds we currently all have are valuable to us and might be worth more than another eighteen months of arguing in the pub or the shop over who said what in the Herald, on the BBC, or in the Daily Record.

    Despite Carole Craig’s support for No in the indyref, her book, “The Scots Crisis of Confidence”, should be required reading for those of wanting to understand how our fellow citizens find themselves struggling to imagine a better future for Scotland. Once I read this book I suddenly realized how some of the defeatist and quiescent attuitudes to life that my grandparents, parents, and friends took on we’re related to those deep historical forces which threatened and bullied ordinary Scots.

    And of course all this psychic bullying whether it took place by the factors of the Clearances era, the slum-landlords of the last century, or the vicious and spiteful media entities that we have the misfortune to be slugged by on a daily basis, does grind people down and make them risk-averse and placid.

    As a countervailing force we need as many confident, kind, selfless people advocating for us as we can find and we need to support those in the independence movement who have the gumption to argue the case for a modern egalitarian, peace loving European nation. People minds do change, sometimes very quickly as the last GE showed. We shouldn’t be despondent right now, just be as prepared as possible for the next campaign when it inevitably comes.

  157. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    @Murray McCallum 6:53pm

    Got to disagree about number 3, Murray. Knowledge of your country’s past is essential for the well-being of its future. Most posts on here dealing with Scotland’s history are excellent.

    Otherwise you make fair points.

  158. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Got the feeling the britnat media has already made its mind up about brexit. It’s all the EU’s fault!

  159. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    Dan @ 6.53pm

    I read many of the posts on historical references. They are very interesting and well written.

    I just don’t think they persuade a person to vote for independence in 2019.

  160. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    @Murray 7:05pm.

    Fair enough, Murray. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

  161. Cadogan Enright
    Ignored
    says:

    please support Indy Live with 12 days to go https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-forward-2017#/

  162. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Artyhettey @
    Thank You it was very kind of you to say,and,yes ofcourse I don’t mind that you saved the comment.
    I hope it helps.

  163. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    A lot of doom and gloom about in the comments.

    People may be genuinely feeling a bit frustrated by the lack of activity, and therefore perceived lack of progress. Or influenced by the Yoon’s narrative that we are losing.

    HOWEVER, we also need to be on our guard against trolls trying to spread division, despondency, and low morale.

    At least we can see where SenDave is coming from … standing before us, giving his Yoon views, and straight in our faces! Fair do’s for his openness. The trolls who will cause real harm are those who pretend to be one of us, but more subtly undermine debate and spread negativity.

    We have moved on from 19thSept 2014. We are making progress and have experienced no setbacks, despite what Yoons claim.

  164. North chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    Ref ” Scottiedog” at 0649 pm re Reporting North Britain, obviously
    Donaldo has informed ” Union Jackie” that she is now ” a big game player” ( due to over exposure) as the program was being locally labelled as ” the Jackie Bird show”. Jackie is now being held in reserve for ” news where you are” big label items such as elections, NHS, Education or police Scotland ” specials” or Royal visits with Pacific Quay ” flunkeys” in attendance.( at absolutely no detriment to her not inconsiderable salary obviously).
    Yes, how reassuring that ” brilliant Einstein intelligent” EXPATS are so dedicated in their defence
    of North Britain as obviously there is such a dearth of ” local talent” with the ” mission control Houston” ,ability and skills to defend our homeland?

  165. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Dan Huil says:

    Got the feeling the britnat media has already made its mind up about brexit. It’s all the EU’s fault!

    Yup, when it inevitably goes tits up, the media will blame EU intransigence in the face of UK flexibility and reasonableness.

    Hilarious, if it weren’t all so bl00dy sad.

  166. Fran
    Ignored
    says:

    @ North Cheil 4.58

    Of course they need the SNP out at the next Holyrood elections, they still have £7B+ to screw out of us and the only ones that would stop that are those bad separatists.

    Every single one of the other parties will roll over like the good pets they are.

    JCs Labour are no different from the Tories, they need the money to implement policies if they were in control and who would they come gunning for? Pooling and sharing, pooling and sharing.

    I explain this to people and get a total disbelieving stare or comment.

    All Scotland does is cash cheques that WM writes and at some point it will come to a head. When it does, I hope its not too late for us.

  167. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s knowledge of my countries past that made me a committed Scottish nationalist in spite of the fact I like so many Scots believed we were to wee and too poor but it was never about economics for me ironically I never thought we were too stupid.

    The 2014 indyref changed all that particularly the Wee Blue Book and made me realise we were not too wee or too poor quite the opposite but the vote in 2014 and recent events have convinced me as a nation we are too stupid.

    I don’t buy this we’re brainwashed or we have low self confidence, if 50% of our population can’t see through the obvious propaganda and the lies and the self interest of the British establishment then we are just plain fucking stupid.

    And if the SNP want to keep my membership and my monthly subscription then they better get their fingers out their arses and start fighting for what they say they believe in because right now I’m not sure what the hell they believe in anymore and time is running out.

    Graeme

  168. stewartb
    Ignored
    says:

    “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

    From Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

  169. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    The one encouraging thing out all of that is that 48% of Scots not wanting another referendum is not quite the overwhelming majority that Ruth and the increasingly weird Fluffy claim….although I guess by Tory counting it is a 120% of the electorate.

  170. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    We are too stupid to be independent any time soon.

    And it is not all the unionists’ fault.

    The SNP spectacularly missed a golden opportunity to strike.

    Now, Nicola has been left dithering about a second independence referendum.

    And unlike many pompous armchair pundits posting here, I am not saying this with hindsight.

    Rock (26th June 2016 – Notes from the madhouse)

    “With the UK leaving the EU, there is absolutely no credible way for Scotland to remain part of the UK as well as the EU as if nothing had changed.

    Everything depends on Scotland being fully independent.

    The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.

    Scotland is in a very strong position right now.

    Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.

    The independence referendum questions should then be:

    Should Scotland become independent?

    If Yes,

    Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or

    Should Scotland leave the EU?

    If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.

    We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.

    The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.

    All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.

    Strike while the iron is hot.”

  171. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock (15th July 2016 – The tantrums of fantasists)

    “The British Establishment does not want to leave the EU.

    All it wants is to blackmail the EU in granting them more concessions.

    Fortunately, the EU are having none of it.

    They will try to use the Scots as scapegoats but unlike the Scots, the English “plebs” are very militant and will not take it lying down.

    We should not fudge the issue and call an independence referendum now.

    The sooner the matter is settled, the better for both Scotland and the EU.

    The British Establishment wants to leave everyone in limbo just to gain time before “independent” England is declared bankrupt.”

  172. Iain
    Ignored
    says:

    I know someone who benefited from invalidity benefit for most of their life, and has a severely disabled grandson and daughter in law, yet voted tory because they don’t like Nicola’s mouth. I wind her up that the queen has dodgy ears and therefore I am a republican.
    There is no accounting for people.
    They are just stupid.
    We have to deal with this, the rest of the world did before they found their freedom from various empire’s.

  173. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Wish ah knew the inside o’ Nicola’s heid the way that some purport tae. Bad enough that she ‘demands, ”gets slapped down’, ‘has taken indyref off the table’, noo she’s ‘dithering’…is there nuthin’ that wumin can dae tae get a break from the never ending speculation masquerading as ‘inside knowledge’ from the entire msm and now those who come on here tae promote that very same ‘insider’ narrative? *

    *aye it’s an entirely rhetorical question.

  174. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Peter McCulloch,

    “There’s no hope for the seriously stupid,they care about no one else and no matter how bad things become for them due to Brexit, they are proud to be British and will blame the Scottish Government for not doing enough to protect them.”

    I would say that pompous armchair pundits posting here who are hell bent on wasting limited time and resources on convincing the “seriously stupid” are even more “seriously stupid”.

    As I have pointed out many times, the vast majority of the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English are not going to vote Yes.

    The pompous armchair pundits trying to “embrace them” are the ones who will guarantee our loss again next time.

    That is in the now highly unlikely event that we will have a referendum before Brexit is completed.

  175. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    K1 says:

    “those who come on here tae promote that very same ‘insider’ narrative? *

    (*aye it’s an entirely rhetorical question.)”

    ((*We are too stupid to be independent any time soon.))

    Speak for yersel’
    (*aye it’s an entirely rhetorical answer)

    Peace Always

  176. BBC SCOTLAND TELLS LIES
    Ignored
    says:

    Brexit is our ticket out of this Stinkin Union.

  177. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    I wouldn’t want to be in the FMs shoes for all the tea in China
    Constantly screamed at by the Unionist party, the BBC, every newspaper, the whole of England either hates us or couldn’t care less what happens to us because in their eyes we’re just not important

    Then we’ve got Scotland, all the moaning minnies who threaten to not vote for Independence if they don’t get offered the right version of it with sprinkles or vermicelli and a Cadburys flake on top
    That mostly comes from the ex Labour socialist types or RIC or RISE we know the ones, they don’t actually ever do anything they just enjoy moaning and arguing about how Nirvana should look when they get their way, which the poor deluded souls never will because Scotland will never be Socialist, it’ll always vote centre left but never far off centre, we’ve all seen how wrong that goes

    There’ll always be Tories but never more than there are right now, they’ve totally peaked and if anything might drop a little
    If Scotland do the really stupid thing and invest their hope that Corbyn will be the answer it’ll be a sad backwards day for us all, hopefully with Dugdale in charge in Scotland that’ll never happen coz she’ll help put more folk off

    Let’s hope the FM and her team have a plan and let’s hope it’s a good one coz let’s face it the Tories are doing most of the work for us

    BTW Why isn’t Ruth Davidson calling for the resignation of Theresa May seeing as the EU has fined the UK £642million for the delaying of farm payments to English farmers

  178. Clydebuilt
    Ignored
    says:

    Since the 2014 Indy Ref. Our opponents have campaigned tirelessly against Independence.

    We have to start campaigning for Independence. Otherwise the fruits of the YES campaign will continue to dissolve. Frittered away by inactivity.

    It’s not a case of pushing our leaders for Indy Ref2 next week. We need to work to build support for Independence.

  179. Sinky
    Ignored
    says:

    There is a concerted Brit Nat propaganda machine aided by Tory press and BBC to discredit Scotland’s democratically elected First Minister. You have to wonder why Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale are rarely challenged on their pronouncements.

    I know it is difficult for the SNP tom get their message over on MSM /BBC but agree with others they do need a more pro active rebuttal unit to get message over to the 120,000 members and others as the SNP web site is useless.

    O/T If you missed it midweek you must watch / download the Proclaimers Story on BBC iplayer

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08w51r4/proclaimers-this-is-the-story

  180. jfngw
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dr Jim

    It’s the endless enigma of the Scottish psyche, the fence sitters who want nirvana but are not willing to do anything for it. When it’s not delivered they then proclaim they didn’t vote for it anyway.

  181. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “Bob p at 5.34

    Can you supply an evidence about how the LESS THAN 500,000 southern immigrants voted.”

    I do not see any reason why the vast majority of the English would vote Yes to Scotland’s independence from England.

    My gut feeling is that out of the ones that voted, 90% voted No and 10% voted Yes.

    Can you supply any evidence to the contrary?

  182. Ian Foulds
    Ignored
    says:

    Sensible Dave at 1.50pm

    Why do these people fixate on politicians and not intentions or policies?

    The people we talk of will not be there forever nor, do I believe, will the SNP in its current guise, after Independence.

  183. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “These are not bad people and we should understand that but we have to somehow balance the effect they are having in our rural communities.”

    This is what Robert Peffers has to say about them:

    Robert Peffers (18th February “Here comes a surprise”)

    “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

    Do you disagree with Robert Peffers?

  184. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, asks for Respect, Acceptance and Inclusion for All.

    And yet there are those who will afford her none of the above.
    Nasty to say the least!

    Peace Always

  185. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Smallaxe,

    “And yet there are those who will afford her none of the above.
    Nasty to say the least!

    Peace Always”

    Well there can only be one re-incarnation of Mother Theresa at a time.

  186. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    There is one thing Nicola can and should do.

    State clearly now that there will be an independence referendum before Brexit is completed, with or without Westminster’s permission.

    Then go on the attack. Take the gloves off.

    I would be 100% behind that.

  187. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    Here’s one for the evening shift.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTSGdTcPOsc

  188. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Sinky; Some are trying to get the message out, this is one having trouble with funding as are others. The BBC (Public Enemy No.1) can still drown them out.

    Independence Live
    http://mailchi.mp/38704afd228d/going-forward-2017?e=efe0a70572

    Peace Always

  189. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    It seems that you know little of Mother Theresa, not the saint that you may think!

    I bet you think this is about You.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfmp_kZ0ZfE&ab_channel=harriebraamhaar

    Peace Always

  190. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh! Here we go again and it’s the same old blame game for the umpteenth time to the power of ump. Someone says it’s all the SNP’s fault for not publishing he truth about the latest propaganda and fake news by the Scottish MSM and the broadcasters who are all owned by wealthy Tory supporting, non-tax paying billionaires.

    Truth is that the SNP, as a party has a Website that not even a majority of the card carrying members read:-
    https://www.snp.org/
    Own up now – how many of you read it today?

    Another claims is that we need to have a new policy regarding a completely new, and unique, Scottish currency as that’s what lost us the last referendum.

    It wouldn’t matter a tinker’s damn what currency the SNP said they would use. Because very unionist, (and that’s every last bloody one of them), broadcaster of both TV and Radio on the airwaves, and on-line too, would be rubbishing whatever title the SNP said they would use for the independent Scottish Currency.

    What the hell does it matter what they call it? The fact is that ALL currencies have several things in common, no matter what they are called.

    Was there a financial crisis when the United Kingdom decided to go decimal overnight? The, “New Sterling Currency was just the same as the old Sterling Currency except the different values were stated in tens instead of 12 pence, 20 shillings and 2.5 shillings to the half-Crown and so on. What matters is not the face value of the currency but how the government regulates the money supply. That regulation will dictate what the exchange rate for one currency is against any other currency.

    Face the truth – you can climb out of an aeroplane in a foreign country and there will be a nearby place where you can change whatever currency you have arrive with into whatever currency that particular country uses. If the currency loses it’s value it does so as measured against all the other currencies out there.

    The fact is that Joe & Josephine Public really do not want to bother their heads with political matters when they can read/view/hear all the news about whatever flavour of ‘Celeb is the current flavour of the moment and read all the scandal or what cosmetic surgery the latest ‘Celeb had to make them look exactly like every other ‘Celeb as they all use the same set of plastic surgeons.

    Then the public can read all about which football team was currently being robbed by whatever referee was officiating at that particular match.

    Then most exciting of all are the articles about what some, once young and artificially enhanced and talentless ‘Celeb of yesteryear looks like now.

    Meanwhile the readership of that junk journalism have subconsciously absorbed the great big black headlines that said, “SNPBAAAD”, but have never bothered to actually read the article.

    By the way, The Scottish Government has its own website too. Have you read it today?

    http://www.parliament.scot/

  191. Ghillie
    Ignored
    says:

    So.

    48% are daft and feart.

    52% are open-minded, brave, optomistic and believe in Scotland!

    = )

  192. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    Amazing how so many people become downhearted with polling results. Don’t forget how often they’ve got it wrong recently. The Tories spend millions, if not billions, in an attempt to ensure that they continue to rule the roost, so you can bet your bottom dollar they hold (secret – as is their way) polls on a regular basis and are well aware that we can / will win. That’s why they’re busting their gut to get Nicola to take it off the table. That and the fact it means that EU negotiators can’t (won’t) broach the subject of a forthcoming Independence referendum leaving Westminster free to sell us down the river. If they were so sure that “no one wants Independence” they would have been saying, months ago, “right now IS the time” to get it done and dusted before they triggered A50 and started negotiations.

    We know that there are people in this country who will never vote for Independence, no matter how detrimental being part of the Union is for us. We can basically forget about them and continue to focus on the hundreds of thousands of Scots who don’t have a clue about the basics, imo, never mind the more profound issues, and jiggery-pokery, that most of us on here are conversant with. They don’t have a clue about the basics or more profound issues because the Establishment doesn’t want them to become enlightened and we all know why.

    This site (with Stu the hero) has been fantastic in contributing greatly to the massive rise in support for Independence, however it’s not reaching everyone, far from it, unlike the BBC, STV: the MSM in general. We need broadcasting to be devolved, but that’s not going to happen. It leaves us all racking our brains trying to figure out how to get the ‘truth’ across. A recent encounter I had has led to another idea. It might be rubbish, but here goes.

    I had a (fairly new) neighbour visit yesterday and the conversation eventually lead to me bringing up the subject of Independence. Surprise, surprise! She said she’d love to vote for Independence but the usual – too poor, no oil etc. I tried to convince her otherwise, as briefly as possible so as not to bore her to death, lol, but felt I wasn’t getting through to her. I then showed her two videos, McCrone Report and Stolen Seas, and she was practically incandescent with rage asking me why no-one knew about this. I had to explain that the MSM supported the Union and was in fact a propaganda machine. I then showed her the latest Indyref2 blog, Wings, Jim Rodgers Brexit and Richard Murphy dissing GERS. She was absolutely livid and said if the Scots were aware of all of this we’d be Independent in next to no time. And don’t we know it!

    Now I know I’ve mentioned this before and it probably went down like a lead balloon but I reckon we should rent premises in towns and cities across Scotland and use the windows to get the message across by exhibiting data. More than anything use the windows (with a big television) to broadcast YouTube videos. Select the most influential videos and have them running on a loop. Our own form of broadcasting.

  193. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Well, did now. “ 20/06/2017 SNP Westminster frontbench team and spokespeople” is the latest article.

    Upcoming Events 22/06/2017 | 07:00 PM Dalmarnock meet up” is the latest event – yesterday, good news for Dr Who.

    Search page for “currency” or “ministries of an Independent Scotland” or “economy of Indy Scotland” or …

    … not there.

    Have a look at scottishconservatives? Two articles for today, with enough to tantalise, and 3 from yesterday on the front page. There there’s Scottish Labour – one article from today plus another undated one.

    So why on earth would people look at the SNP website? Where’s the media releases (answe is buried)?

    It’s crap.

  194. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock at 9.23

    “My gut feeling is that out of the ones that voted, 90% voted No and 10% voted Yes.

    That may well be the case. You obviously completely miss my point though it is not all that hard to get. Let me put it in simple and easy to understand terms.

    A huge majority of English immigrants into Scotland are retired persons. There is little doubt they voted by large majority NO as I suggested. I never have suggested otherwise.

    We have many English people in our SNP branches in Cowal and these are all working families making Scotland their lives and they voted for independence in the same proportion as our own people (or more so)

  195. Graf Midgehunter
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone else having problems loading Peter Bell’s “Politics Scotland – Scoop it”.
    Error 404

    As far as I know nothings changed. Or???

  196. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “Rock at 9.23

    “My gut feeling is that out of the ones that voted, 90% voted No and 10% voted Yes.

    That may well be the case. You obviously completely miss my point though it is not all that hard to get.”

    No, your point was very clear. You were asking for evidence when you have no evidence yourself:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “Bob p at 5.34

    Can you supply an evidence about how the LESS THAN 500,000 southern immigrants voted.”

  197. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    What happens is this. Some story breaks in the MSM, “Sturgeon accused”, and you look at the SNP website to see the other side of the story – and there isn’t one. “SNP Westminster frontbench team and spokespeople“, which some of the media actually faithfully print.

    So if you’re really dedicated you spend minutes or longer trying to find out the real story, the facts, and by the time you manage it – if you do at all – too late, there’s half a dozen unionists with postings “Sturgeon must go”, and that’s the polite ones.

    The SNP do not help others to support them.

    If they ahd more releases, at least on a daily basis, the media would pick them up as well – it is actually their duty.

    The SNP website is a bollocks.

  198. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “These are not bad people and we should understand that but we have to somehow balance the effect they are having in our rural communities.”

    This is what Robert Peffers has to say about them:

    Robert Peffers (18th February “Here comes a surprise”)

    “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

    Do you disagree with Robert Peffers?

  199. Wull
    Ignored
    says:

    I would not be worried about polls like these. They are too speculative to mean anything much. Faced with a real vote, where real choices have to be made, many people will act quite differently from the way they think they will act when they are only dreaming (i.e. speculating) about it.

    So we should not get in a lather of sweat about these kind of results in these kind of polls. If Alex Salmond had been dominated by what the polls said about independence in 2011 through to 2012, he would have done everything to avoid an indyref in the first place, even to the point of reneging on his election promises. And 2014 would never have happened.

    Instead, he rose to the occasion.

    After all, he must have been as surprised by the majority he gained at Holyrood in 2011 as his opponents were. And that unexpected result undoubtedly led him to hold the Indyref he always wanted much sooner than he had planned for, or anticipated.

    The great thing was that he was not afraid of the challenge. He took the bull by the horns. And even if he did not win, he did increase the support for independence from a meagre 29% to fully 45%, and at one point had it over the 50.

    Whatever polls may seem to say about the present, they don’t tell you anything at all about the future.

    It’s great what confidence can do for you. Maybe that’s the trouble with the SNP’s current public relations exercise: it does not give the impression of confidence.

    In particular, it seems to lack confidence about winning Indyref2.

    It’s as if ‘the polls’ have paralysed us, and caught us in their headlights.

    And as if we have forgotten that that is exactly what a lot of these polls are designed to do. That’s the effect that many of those who call them hope to have on us. Paralyse them; make them afraid; get them at each other’s throats; create despondency among them. Make them think that if indyref2 took place they couldn’t possibly win!

    In short, get them to give up on it!

    What attitude should we adopt to all this incessant propaganda from those who want to avert independence at all costs? Their hysteria, and unceasing pile-driving efforts to stop indeyref2 should give us … confidence. Just that, nothing else.

    It should convince us that once the campaign starts in earnest, we’ll grow the independence vote by (at least) 15%. As happened the last time. Only now we are starting at 45%, and we’ll grow it to 60, or even more.

    We just need to be a wee bit more gallus. Confident, that is. Get back a bit of genuine Scottish swagger … Not the empty bluff stuff that only (and poorly) hides insecurity, but a real wee swagger, the kind that loves a challenge, is determined, and sticks it to ’em.

    The daftest thing I ever heard was the idea that the SNP would have to wait till 60% of Scots were steadily in favour of independence. Then they would hold an Indyref, because they would be sure to win. That is total nonsense, in my view. If we (or the SNP) have a steady 10% advantage at the start of an independence campaign, it’s almost certain we’ll lose more than that 10% during it.

    In my view, it’s much better to set the ball rolling before we have got a majority in favour, according to polls. If it’s pretty much even stevens, that would be all right too. But if we start off as favourites to win – naw! Ironically, that would spell danger for us.

    As in sport, so it will be in this far more important thing. When Scots are favourites they usually under-perform. It’s when the odds are stacked against them that we get our dander up, and then we do well. Even perform magnificently, and sometimes win.

    As in fact happened, when you think about it, in 2014 – even if we did not quite get there that time, the 2014 loss changed the map in a way that should be permanent. Independence became a real possibility for the first time ever, and it still is.The SNP needs to learn how to cash in fully on that very real possibility, and make it come true. With the help of so many others – because they now know that they really cannot do it on their own. Nor, in any case, would such a one-man-show way of achieving independence even be desirable.

    Waiting till we have 60% pro-indy is a recipe for disaster … or even a sure way of never holding an indyref2 at all.

    And not in the least bit necessary.

    Can we not see that the people who really do not want an indyref2 are those who are dead scared of such a thing happening? And why are they so scared? Because they know that if an indyref2 is held within the timetable proposed by Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland will indeed become independent as a consequence.

    That is what they want to avoid.

    And isn’t that the surest of all signs that we are going to win it? the Britnat anti-Scotland brigade are not at all convinced that they can win in 2018 or 2019. In fact, they know that if it takes place then, they ‘ll be defeated. And Scotland will regain her independence.

    Even our opponents (including those politicians on the other side, especially those in the UK government, who know better than anyone does what Brexit will really mean for Scotland) are convinced of that. And they are running scared. Very scared.

    Otherwise there would not be so much hysterical and sustained propaganda aimed at getting indyref2 off the table. If they thought they could win, they would not do that.

    If the enemy is so terrified, the SNP have to stay calm, and go for it. I am still hoping that this is what Nicola Sturgeon is doing. At Culloden, Cumberland (‘Stinking Billy’) ordered his Redcoats not to panic when they saw the Highland charge coming straight at them, but to wait till the last second before pulling their triggers. They were not to fire till they saw the white of the Highlanders’ eyes. Well. I am hoping that’s what the SNP are doing now. They may seem to be doing and saying nothing in the face of the terrible charge of the combined Unionist forces that has been unleashed on them through the mainstream media and every channel the Britnat Anti-Scots can muster.

    But – I hope – what they are doing is in fact not at all nothing, but something very difficult indeed: they are (let’s hope) holding their nerve!

    Our turn to wait till we see the white of the eyes of those leading the Unionist charge … At which point we’ll pick them off row by row, just as they come … Carried fotrward by the weight of their own momentum into the awaiting guns …

    Until the rout is complete.

    This is the opportune moment.

    For the SNP to turn back now, as all their enemies incessantly exhort them to do, would be the equivalent of Charles Edward Stewart listening to the wrong advice, and turning back at Derby … Just at the moment when, if he had marched on to London – where George II was already packing his bags to escape back to Hanover – he would have taken the city and the whole country – or, rather, the bigger and more southerly of his two countries – without a whimper.

    So, Nicola and co., please don’t panic. We have them on the run … So just push steadily on.

    Our opponents want us to panic, but it is actually they who are panicking. Which means that we are winning – and they know it. We just have to stay calm and remain confident, firm in the belief that that is the case, and push steadily on.

    The opinion polls will no doubt shoot all over the place in what many will experience as a confusing few months, but that really won’t matter, and can be ignored. Note that the united front against us are not even arguing against independence any more. They are simply trying to stop us from holding a referendum on the subject any time.

    That is the surest sign that they are completely convinced that if such a referendum is held within the time-scale proposed by the SNP, and approved with Green support in the Scottish parliament, they will lose. They know that their old arguments against independence don’t hold water any more, and they have no new ones to replace them with. None that will stand up to even the brest scrutiny, that is.

    Once the campaign starts in earnest, they know they can’t possibly win it. So they are putting all their efforts into preventing that start – and that ‘in earnest’ – from ever happening.

    That is why they are saying ‘don’t even begin the process; don’t even hold a referendum; don’t even think about it; get it AFF THE TABLE AS FAST AS YOU DAMN WELL CAN – because, otherwise, that great unionist majority we are all pretending to have will crumble in our faces and disappear into thin air …

    The logic of their position is obvious, isn’t it? A position which they know is based on sand, so they keep having to shore it up with greater and greater vehemence … So that we don’t notice how flimsy and precarious it is … A mighty sandcastle bult in defiance of what they can see is an incoming tide … If Indyref2 comes now, they know they won’t have an argument to stand on …

    They are trying hard to get us all at each other’s throats, for sure, and for nothing.

    Over what?

    Some speculative poll that plays on feverish imaginations, doesn’t amount to anything much, and won’t make the slightest difference on the day …

    Come on Scotland … Everything our opponents are doing, or trying to do, indicates only one thing … we are already winning this. No need to panic – panicking is their problem, not ours.

    They do not want an Indyref2, because they have no arguments with which to argue their case. Their case will simply crumble. It will disappear, along with the UK, into the incoming tide … as they lose, lose, lose …

    And by the way, it’s the same with Brexit: they can’t win that one either. They won’t admit it, but they have already lost there too. The UK is already poorer as a consequence of Brexit, and it’s going to get poorer still. And whatever is left of the rest of the (former) UK, after Scotland leaves it, will be poorer still. The UK government (insofar as there is such a thing – May and Co) can bluster all it likes … It knows it has lost, and it knows it is going to keep on losing. The crisis in confidence is in fact all theirs – no matter how much they try to hoodwink us into thinking differently, it isn’t – and shouldn’t – be ours.

    Let them sink in their own Lake of Despond – and not let them drag us into it. Avoid the whirlpool, stay in the open sea – our vessel is sound. Steady as she goes … No panic … We are well on course. And the land we are aiming for – land of freedom, along with true and trusted friends, who are also free – is well in sight.

  200. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Excellent Ghillie ~!

    Cheers for keepin’ it real.

    Xx.

  201. Daisy Walker
    Ignored
    says:

    Petra – love your idea, but before then, and for much less money and effort

    EVERY CAR IS A BILLBOARD

    Cheerie the noo.

    Keep on keeping on.

  202. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “We have many English people in our SNP branches in Cowal and these are all working families making Scotland their lives and they voted for independence in the same proportion as our own people (or more so)”

    The talk was about around 500,000 English people in total.

    Out of the ones that voted, 90% voted No, unless you have any evidence to the contrary.

    90% of voting Scots did not vote No, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

    I have no problem with that, why would the vast majority of the English vote for Scottish independence from England?

    My problem is, it is totally stupid to allow English settlers to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England, without restriction.

    EU settlers in the UK were prevented from voting in the referendum on UK independence from the EU, rightly so in my view.

  203. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref2,

    “The SNP do not help others to support them.”

    For the record, I will always support the SNP until after independence.

    Always vote, and always vote for the SNP until after independence.

  204. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Petra at 10.16

    With you entirely. And I have no idea why we do not have easily accessed centres in all our major cities. They would be very easy to do and could be membership supported and in fact would generate enough income to provide good sums of money for information dissemination.

    Had I enough funds I would be producing “The Half Wit Factor” leaflets that would be in your face and challenging and read because of that. At the local elections we faithfully put out the boring official leaflets. Then we produced a simple black and white foldover which was entitled “Don’t be fooled!” and everybody read that one.

  205. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Petra,

    “Amazing how so many people become downhearted with polling results.”

    Amazing how so so many pompous armchair pundits posting here were getting very “uphearted” when polls were showing near 50% support for the SNP.

    Thepnr,

    “Just thought I should mention I think Labour in Scotland will be lucky if they get 15% of the vote in this GE. Hopefully less.”

    Rock,

    “Unfortunately, more than 20% of the voting public in Scotland remains stupid enough to vote for Labour.”

  206. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    So basically here’s how the media does it. They look at the scottish conservatives website, 2nd article: “Scotland’s farming communities are owed an apology from the First Minister and her rural affairs secretary over the latest CAP fiasco, the Scottish Conservatives have said.

    Media headline: “Sturgeon accused of treating parliament with contempt” (from the paragpraph before). 2nd article “FM warned she should apologise to farmers”. So you look up how to respond to this from the SNP website, and here you go, just the job, here’s how you reply to the article:

    “Ah, but Angus Brendan Macneil has been appointed as the Westminster Spokesperson on Environment and Rural Affairs”

    Yeah, that did it, that showed the suckers.

  207. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Am tempted tae rush ower tae scons site fur a tantalising taste of shite,

    *haud on, I’m jist gonnae hae a wee peek…*

    Top banner on site:

    ‘Sign our petition today and send the SNP a clear message
    We want a better government, not another independence referendum’

    First article:

    ‘Ruth supports Armed Forces Day by becoming the Honorary Colonel of Army Reserve Unit’

    Second article:

    ‘Sturgeon and Ewing treated parliament with ‘utter contempt’ over latest CAP fiasco’

    Third article:

    ‘Scottish Government should be stripped of right to appoint SPA chair’

    Fourth article:

    ‘Poverty and Inequality Commission to be created despite SNP opposition’

    Fifth article:

    ‘Sturgeon must come clean on second CAP crisis’

    Fuck me that was tantalisingly all about the SNP, yer right yesindyref2, people get yer arses over there to read what a shower of shite the SNP are straight from Scottish conservative’s ain mooths rather than here on Wings!

    The entire front page of their website is devoted tae the SNPBAAAD.

    Ahm no gonnae risk SLab site noo!

  208. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Love Scotland.

    Stand by.

    Yes!

    X.

  209. PacMan
    Ignored
    says:

    Over the last year or more, every BritNat politician has repeated the line that there should be no second IndyRef. It’s basic psychology that when repeated often enough, especially be somebody in authority, it is accepted as truth. Therefore, the result of poll is hardly surprising.

    Modern technology is beneficial in that it allows access to a diversity of opinions that was never possible before but it also makes it even easier for the same old propaganda tricks to get to an even wider audience.

  210. Wull
    Ignored
    says:

    Apologies for quite a few typos in that last post.

    Here’s one them, which lacks a vital last word: ‘They are simply trying to stop us from holding a referendum on the subject any time.’

    It should have ended: ‘… any time soon.’

    But the worst one comes in the last sentence of the next paragraph, which currently reads: ‘None that will stand up to even the brest scrutiny, that is.’

    It should have said ‘… even the least scrutiny …’

    Don’t know how that happened; should have checked it before I sent it. Once again, apologies … !

  211. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @K1
    Yes, that’s the problem, and it’s kept updated by the looks of it. It’s also eye-catching, and probably gets google rankings. And, from the results in the GE, it worked.

  212. North chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    ” Will @ 1031 pm ” issueing a rousing ” rallying cry” to stay calm and focused
    until our FM confirms the date . It’s entirely this wonderful leader’s judgement on this we MUST HAVE FAITH IN . She is fighting a daily battle ( every day of her life) to secure our ultimate goal of Independence. Please everyone get behind her one and all ,together. She absolutely deserves nothing less for her lifetime of sacrifice for our cause. Remember ” it’s always darkest before the dawn” . Keep the faith!

  213. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Self-confidence, that’s all we need. Anything which re-awakens that among yessers and attracts over a decent bunch of former “no”s will get us there.

    IMHO, the BBC’s primary role in Scotland, is to stunt the psycho-social development of an historically colonised people (who happen to inhabit a nation awash with an embarrassment of natural racecourses and human talent).

    @ Scottish Government
    Re. the BBC. Get they wanks on a short leash A.S.A.P. and protect my human rights, if you please.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_personal_identity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_development

  214. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @K1, Petra, DMcEH, yesindyref2, Cactus, Daisy, Wull et al –

    More power to y’all for giving abody something to concentrate on while that bastard midge’s fleeting aboot the place…

  215. Cal
    Ignored
    says:

    Can’t all this irrational behaviour be explained when you accept that the population of Scotland are cowards? They voted No in 2014 through cowardice and now they take the safe opition of calling for another EU referendum (safe, because they know it can never happen) but reject the perfectly possible and brave option of taking matters into their own hands by having another indy ref and taking the chance to put right their bad decision of 2014.

    Cowardice also explains their lack of reaction to May’s refusal to allow a second Indyref. Unionists have called the Scottish electorate’s bluff and they have been found wanting. Scotland is now in a very vulnerable position where the unionists know they can do absolutely anything safe in the knowledge that the Scots population will roll over and do nothing again. The Scottish parliament is liable to reject the “Great” Repeal Bill and Westminster will of course overrule. Will Scots voters react to this humiliation? Wha-da-ya reckon?

    It may not be politically correct to call 2014 no voters cowards but really I can see no other plausible explanation for the irrational behaviour of our countrymen. Really quite angry and depressed tonight. Truly Scots get what they deserve. Scotland’s future? Assimilation and managed decline.

  216. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    P.S. One is allowed day-dreams? 🙂

  217. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    But you know the truth of the matter re CAP, you inform others as much as ye can or are able to yesindyref2, that’s all any of us have been doing over the years isn’t it on most of the SNPBAAD assault from all quarters?

    Why are you so pissed off with the SNP, they are fire fighting every day with this stuff, any one of us who watched the ‘attack’ on ‘Sturgeon’ today re Cap payments, listened carefully to her ‘actual’ response and know they are only attempting to politicise this as a means of undermining the SNP.

    Now, I understand the frustration re the media, but are you seriously suggesting that the msm would pick up press releases from the SNP site and run them the way you say, they are doing the lifting from Sconservative site?

    The msm in Scotland are completely on board wi SNPBAAD without the aid of scons or slab, why are you citing their website as some sort of ‘template’ comparing their shite wi the SNP’s. Most people don’t read political party blog sites as it is. Improving their website isn’t going to make SNPBAAD stop.

    We are and can do by keeping persepective. If you despise their ‘incompetence’ as much as you are coming across, why are you even a member of the SNP? Cause you sure as hell aren’t offering any solutions and if you think comparing websites between political parties is a legitimate thing tae moan about to prove just how shite they are, then you’ve just turned intae the biggest promoter of SNPBAAD there is.

    The reality is if some big bad snp bad story breaks in Scotland, the first thing you do, is come on tae Wings over Scotland, nobody but nobody rushes on tae a political site for ‘verification’. Or ammunition to fight the story. And anyway it’s the same 5 stories regurgitated over and over again, Education, referendumx40000000tae the power of infinity, bad baby boxes, bad named person, bad police decisions, bad snp.

    There are not enough hours in the day tae firefight and maintain a constant update of the level of shite being thrown at them. Explaining it, contextualising it. They are in fact running the fucking government and aw the Tories and Lab have got to do is fire the same shite at them and spend the remaining time writing shitty snp bad articles on their websites? Cause they aren’t running a government, their sole purpose is running the democratically elected government down constantly.

    Gies peace wi yer lamenting about how awful the snp are because: ‘website’.

  218. john rae
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe off topic, but , is this what the english really think of us..The tab,,, Dear Scotland ….34 things england is not sorry for , yet, they will still take our money …as long as its bank of england

  219. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Right on brother IB.

    YES WE CAN, NOW WE MUST, SO BE IT.

    Dream big Scotland.

    X.

  220. john rae
    Ignored
    says:

    K1, We have to put up wi aw this shite each and every day, shouldn’t you wonder why Nic has now become prone to it,, me me , how can we get the message, and real truth
    out to people ?

  221. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    racecourses?

    Must get glasses. Resources.

  222. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Ah’ve started on RA whisky…

    What about you.. have you?

    This could be a long night…

    Stay en-tuned..

    Anybuddy FREE next Saturday ra 1st of July, in Glasgow?

    Wanna meet?

    Cheers.

  223. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    POF is…

    Plenty

    Of

    Freedom

    Ayeeeeeeeeeeeee

  224. jk.scobie
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert , so down to earth just what people need to look at, but, will they pay attention ,and, take in the facts

  225. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @ K1 says: “Why are you so pissed off with the SNP

    The SNP is not their website K1, which is just as well!

    OK, here’s some questions, to be answered from the SNP website front page, or an article linked from it, or even a tab at the top of the page:

    1). When’s the Forth Crossing due to open, and a picture of it?
    2). How many tower blocks in Scotland have aluminium composite cladding?
    3). How much CAP convergence uplift should Scotland be getting, that Carmichael generously shared out over the rest of the UK rather than giving it to Scotland which was the cause of it – as we have the lowest Pillar 1 of the whole UK, and considerably less than most if not all of the EU countries? Same thing for Pillar 2?
    4). What was Tusk’s answer to May’s “generous” offer to EU citizens resident in Scotland and the rest of the UK?
    5). What’s the estimated current bill for the UK of the Tories needing the DUP to stay in power?
    6). What do the SNP think of Common Weal’s currency paper? Interesting would be a good start, and non-committal!
    7).

    Well, you get the picture, or at least we all would if they actually wrote some stuff on their stupid website.

  226. Still Positive
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m still hanging on to the belief that Scotland will vote Yes in the next indy ref. The areas who voted No are also those who voted strongly Remain: namely Edinburgh; Stirling; Renfrewshire and East Dunbartonshire.

    Although 3 of those areas returned Conservative MPs and 1 Lib Dem.

  227. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    I forgot to say – no cheating! It must be on the SNP main page, or easily accessible from there.

  228. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Hey Chris C..

    Ye on shift ra day?

    Paint a picture.

    Saturday.

  229. Graf Midgehunter
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood

    “More power to y’all for giving abody something to concentrate on while that bastard midge’s fleeting aboot the place…”

    What have I done wrong..!!???

  230. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Wull 10.57
    Nae need fur any apologies Will,we all post with typos.
    But mair tae the point we all KNEW what ye ment…well said sir!
    I am hoping that Nicola will say something along the lines of.
    We are the SNP,,, Independence Is NEVER off the Table.
    To which I will add …We are YES,,,We WON’T allow Independence to be put OFF the table.
    We are Wing’s,,,We will NOT stop Telling Why Independence needs to be on the table.
    We are Scotland,WE say WHAT is on the Table

  231. Still Positive
    Ignored
    says:

    Independence is never off the table. Forever.

  232. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Nicola’s speech at the Royal Highland Show!

    https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/first-minister-speaks-at-royal-highland-show

    That should keep you all busy for a while, my Friends.

    Peace Always

  233. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    I saw “Pompous Armchair Pundit” live at the Apollo in 1983.

    They were shite to be honest, still there’s a lot of fans about today though who can’t stop speaking about them.

  234. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Respect.

    Understandingnecessity.

    Learn.

    That is it.

    Learnage.

    To life!!

    @Springbank is an excellent, natural whisky.

    Headin’ in tae ra Glasgow city…

    Where to go for RA ROCK?

    Help ma boaby, help me Scotland!

    It aint tennis, but I Love All.

    “The Silver Moon Is Out Of Sight…”

    Name zat tune..?

    RAAAAA!

  235. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Offer tae take over yesindyref2, ye clearly have some ideas how tae fix their problem as seen through your eyes.

  236. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Posts:
    4,444………………………

    Eleven excellent posts / articles since this one:
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sometimes-its-hard-not-to-despair/

    Get back into it.

    Cheers WOS for THE number..

    Express urself.

    4.444

  237. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Cactus;

    A Minha Menina:
    The silver moon is out of sight
    And the golden sun has come
    A beautiful new day is born

    Peace Always Cactus

  238. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Graf –

    Sorry friend, it was a swift scan. No offence intended!

    Anyone and everyone who helps distract from the persistent buzzing deserves a medal.

    🙂

  239. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Dang-doops, I just refreshed the same page, ahhh ha ha ha.

    This is what I meant for real:
    wingsoverscotland.com/the-other-side-of-the-mountain/

    Stay tuned…

    U know.

    PLAY.

  240. Graf Midgehunter
    Ignored
    says:

    IAN BROTHERHOOD

    What the fuck are you on about…

    See post at 12.09am

  241. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Second attempt (with a true linkable path line clicker:)
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-other-side-of-the-mountain/

    Love Scotland.

    Completely.

    X.

  242. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @K1
    I don’t understand why you’re so antagonistic about criticsm of the SNP website, when what I posted earlier has already been proven by this headline in the Herald: “Sturgeon apologises to farmers for second year of cash delays“.

    If moderate people go to the SNP website to see if there’s any other angle to the story, what will they find?

    Nothing, absolutely nothing. A picture of a baby taking a third of the screen with a caption “Read about our record”, the top with things like ” Login to your SNP”, “shop”, member stuff, and then at the bottom, articles that are now 4 days old.

    It’s like the YES website in the last 2 weeks of the Indy Ref campaign, which had a video of a baby being born, and the rest of the page blacked off and hard to get at without fiddle-arsing around. I gave up, you could at least look at the BT website to see what was going on in real time, then do some research to be able to “refute” it.

    Your average surfer will spend a maximum of 10 seconds on the SNP main page, if that even, before going elsewhere.

  243. Big Phil
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g,
    we can only hope Liz. all you others .. have faith. 😉

  244. Graf Midgehunter
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian B

    Your post came as mine was still on its way. OK.

  245. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Cheers to Wings Over Scotland…

    And here’s to you..

    Here’s to ye.

    Scotland.

    X.

    TAXI!

  246. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Graf Midgehunter,

    Graf, it’s not you that Ian is talking about, my Friend. Calm down. 🙂

    Peace Always

  247. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Look busy…

    Yes is coming..

    Jesus!

  248. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    SCOTLAND IS FUCKIN’ AMAZING.

    Never forget that.

    EVER!!!

    We are.

    X.

  249. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Fear ye not Scotland.

    Yer in guid hauns.

    Love SCO.

    WOS.

    X.

  250. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Have you ever met hey zeus you?

  251. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Re. being subordinate to what is effectively the Parliament of England. Also the apparent lack of appetite for Scotland’s self-determination.

    “We forget that, although each of the liberties which have been won must be defended with utmost vigour, the problem of freedom is not only a quantitative one, but a qualitative one; that we not only have to preserve and increase the traditional freedom, but that we have to gain a new kind of freedom, one which enables us to realize our own individual self; to have faith in this self and in life.” ? Erich Fromm, The Fear of Freedom

  252. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Lead yerself.

    Be one.

    Now.

  253. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    The main problem with opinion polls is that they all ask people to choose options, maybe even rate them 1-10.

    All that’s needed for Indy is to ask 1,020 random currently NO voters, weighted according to all the blah blah one question which they can freeform an answer:

    What would make you vote YES to Independence for Scotland?

  254. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    I find it interesting yesindyref2 that you are banging on about the snp website, in particular by comparing with the STory and SLab ones? Robert also mentioned the Scottish governent website, you have made no mention of the fact that the natural place to go to find out what the ‘Scottish Governent’ has going on, is to go to their website?

    Because as it is constantly the SNP’ that is being bashed people including yourself completely forget to mention that they are the government, and if you want to find articles about what is going in the SNP government then surely that is the site that you would want to go to?

    They don’t have to keep promoting or fire fighting or pouring money into two websites yesindyref2?

    Here:

    Want to know about recent publications, http://www.gov.scot, click ‘publications’ and this is what you find

    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/Recent

    There is a banner running at the top of the main page which you can click on to take you to the beta site, I.e. The new Scottish government site that is being set up to replace the one above:

    https://beta.gov.scot/?utm_source=gov.scot&utm_medium=betabanner&utm_content=notificartion-banner-text-button&utm_campaign=beta

    My contention is that you are obsfucating and making it all about how lousy a party website is when the reality is the party you are moaning about ‘is’ the government and they have a dedicated fully updated website that is maintained and is presently under reconstruction, but you didn’t mention any of that instead have chosen tae focus on how crap the content is on the ‘party’ site?

    Why would they dedicate the resources to keep two sites up and going when the main one covers every single aspect of what the government in Scotland is actually up tae?

    It’s nothing more than SNPBAAD yesindyref2, but ah did not see ye promote the actual website that does address ‘your’ concerns. It begs the question really, if it took me less than 10 seconds to find this info. What the fuck are you doing wasting your precious moments ‘surfing’ and ‘moaning’ about how they should be doing better in terms of provision of information of the type your seeking and why is it not obvious that it isn’t the SNP website that any and all publications by the ‘Scottish government’ would be published on the dedicated Scotgov site?

    First article on the ‘Publications’ page:

    Friday 23/06/2017

    Women in Farming and the Agriculture Sector [Agriculture]

    Second article on the ‘Publications’ page:

    Thursday 22/06/2017

    Enterprise and Skills Review Report on Phase 2: 15-24 Learner Journey [Economy]

    Oh, is that not what you meant when you were banging on about ‘articles’? Did you mean ‘news’ articles?

    It just so happens there is a tab for that too, strangely enough called ‘News’:

    https://news.gov.scot

    First article on the ‘News’ page:

    24/06/17 00:01

    Food and drink innovation

    Second article on the ‘News’ page:

    23/06/17 15:15

    Comment on cladding and high rise buildings

    Third article on the ‘News’ page:

    23/06/17 14:13

    Multi million Haudagain roundabout contract up for grabs

    And on it goes.

    As you can see one of your particular ‘examples’ of questions you want answered may actually be be in this section of the Scottish government’s website, easily accessed, let’s click on that article on the ‘News’ page, shall we?:

    ‘Communities Secretary provides further update.

    Communities Secretary Angela Constance said:

    “This week, we asked local authorities to give us further information about their high rise domestic buildings. They have reported that they have over 500 high rise domestic buildings in their areas.

    “All 32 local authorities have advised the Scottish Government that no council or housing association high rise domestic buildings have the type of cladding reported to have been used in the Grenfell tower – Aluminium Composite Material (ACM).

    “24 Local Authorities have also reported to us that no privately owned high rise domestic buildings have ACM cladding. The remainder are completing their investigations as a matter of urgency.”

    Background

    A further update will follow the Ministerial Working Group on Building and Fire Safety next week.

    The Scottish Government is grateful for the help of local authorities in gathering this information, and also appreciates the support of the Scottish Property Federation and Homes for Scotland who have written to their members asking them to work with their respective local authorities to provide information on privately owned high rise domestic properties as a matter of urgency.’

    That’s the ‘further update’ on cladding yesindreyf2, I read about the Scottish government’s response on the evening times website on Wednesday morning.

    Because they’d already issued this on the 20/6/17:

    https://news.gov.scot/news/review-of-building-and-fire-safety-regulations

    Which you can find easily on their website along with hundreds of other press releases right up to date.

    Hope that helps to understand why I wasnt being remotely ‘antagonistic’, ah was simply challenging your assertions about the ‘SNP’ website being this big issue that you have made, without any reference to the actual correct source and thereby showing your own ignorance on these matters.

    Oh and you can ‘SUBSCRIBE’ to the Scottish government website, this way anyone can receive updates on all manner of issues right tae their inbox.

    https://register.scotland.gov.uk/Subscribe/Step1

  255. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Over 17 thousand voters! check the YES to indyref2. It could be 17 hubred thiough:D

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15366080.Drop_plans_for_indyref2_or_lose_top_job__Nicola_Sturgeon_warned/?ref=fbshr

  256. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Nevermind yer bucket list…

    Howsabout yer fuck It! list?!

    Deep in ra merchant city.

    Love Glasgow.

    Love Scotland.

    X.

  257. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:15,

    Yes, I like that. It’s a somewhat leading question in a pro-indy direction (which makes a change!), but it does get people thinking positively about what exactly indy might deliver for them. (And all we “armchair theorists” might be the wiser for the info. =grin=)

    Good positive suggestion there!

    (I also like Petra‘s suggestion upthread about having something like “shop windows” in city centres screening the likes of the “No” to “yes” videos. I had though of something similar, rigging a big LCD screen on a van and parking it on streets in towns, but her suggestion would probably get closer to people, albeit at greater expense.)

  258. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Fuck 1

    Fuck 2

    Fuck 3

    Would be real cool to be free.

    Oh yeah.

    Cairnstoon is gonna blow you away..

    But not before Nana links..

    Love.

    Tell me awe aboot yer fuck it list?!

    Please, please, tell me now.

    Now is RA time for something I should say..?

  259. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Daisy Walker says at 10:36 pm …. ”Petra – love your idea, but before then, and for much less money and effort. EVERY CAR IS A BILLBOARD. Cheerie the noo. Keep on keeping on.”

    Thanks for responding to my post Daisy. You are right every billboard whether it be in your house window, garden, car or elsewhere, such as public places, is a great way to go, albeit limited to a few words / sentences. And well we have all tried that already.

    Full videos being shown on shop fronts all over the country to my mind might make a massive difference.

  260. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    And before I head off to my bed I’d just like to say that individuals like ROCK, who says he (she) supports independence is absolute tommy-rot. He / she is a charlatan and we can all see right through you Mister / Mrs.

    Why not expend your effort and time trying to do something positive to help your ain folk down south

    Let’s face it they are in great need of your help.

  261. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Greetings from the free ~

    One is HOMEbound.

    Love to be.

    Free.

  262. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Somecoolbuddy was talkin’ about ‘Hotel C’ earlier…

    With the perfect intro:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-aK6JnyFmk

    Followed up by:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsVosJ8JzHo

    You got it!

    Press

    GO!

  263. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Independence is gonna be SO beautiful Scotland 🙂

    Mwah x.

    Live it…

    Night.

    Morning.

    Day.

  264. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Exactly…

    EVERY CAR IS A BILLBOARD.

    As much as..

    EVERY LIVING ROOM WINDOW IS A BILLBOARD.

    ‘X’ it.

    NOW!

  265. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s the weekend.

    Welcome to.

    Have a good one excellent people.

  266. Ghillie
    Ignored
    says:

    Night night Cactus =)

    Petra, good ideas! Pirate ciny screens popping up all over the place, genius! In the mean time, (Yes Daisy!) lets be bold and all use our windows and cars to keep the message alive 🙂

    Cameron B Brodie = ) Always expanding my knowledge, thank you.

    K1 and Wull, North chiel, Liz G and all us Indy lovers, Aye, we must keep the faith. Scotland deserves that.

    And I do trust Nicola Sturgeon and the whole team. They are clever, canny and above all, determined!

    Yesindyref2 Write to the SNP with your thoughts, which ARE worthy and mibee could be implemented. Give it a go!

    Smallaxe,have a lovely day = )

    Rev Stu, Happy Bear Watch Patrol 🙂

  267. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Good morning, Ghillie, I hope you and every Winger has a great weekend, keep those ideas coming folks we need a massive push to get the message to the unenlightened.

    Links coming soon!!
    🙂

    Peace Always

  268. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    Morning Hoolets! just watched the prog’ about the Proclaimers on catch-up. Superb stuff, apart from the odious Muriel Gray shoving her neb in!

  269. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    LINKS: From the Lady!

    Alyn Smith: Scotland in Europe:
    http://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_23rd_june_2017

    Comment on cladding and high-rise buildings:
    https://news.gov.scot/news/comment-on-cladding-and-high-rise-buildings-1

    MSP calls for Rethink: (Education)
    http://archive.is/fW3qG

    Peace Always

  270. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    LINK: GRENFELL

    Survivors say the death toll is Higher:
    http://inews.co.uk/opinion/grenfell-survivors-tell-death-toll-far-higher-police-say-i-believe/

    Peace Always

  271. Liz Rannoch
    Ignored
    says:

    Lovely liinksss! Hope ‘our Lady’ is OK? Haven’t been online for over a week now and have no chance of catching up!

    Did a quick shoftie up thread – my experience – tried to do the message online thingy from Nicola’s SNP website. Got to the end and had to do a ‘I’m not a robot’ thingy, did that, pressed ‘submit’ – nothing. I tried 3 times and gave up. So frustrating.

    Anyhoos, great ideas about shops, windows and cars – we’ll have to get a bigger car! Now away to our wee ‘van in Bettyhill for some R & R so won’t be online again for another week or so.

    Kettle’s on!!

    Indy – first, last and always.

  272. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Joemcg says: 23 June, 2017 at 11:07 am:

    ” … What’s so inherent in the Scottish psyche going through the centuries that stops a big percentage of Scots to be against their own countries aspirations?”

    that’ll be because historically, ‘Going through the centuries’, Scotland did not see itself as a really a unified country. In some ways it still isn’t a unified country.

    History claims that Scotland first emerged as an independent political entity in the Early Middle Ages. Most historians contend this was in the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin, (843. AD).

    However, the extent of Scotland’s independence as a kingdom was fought over by the Scottish kings and by both the Norman and Plantagenet line of English kings who petitioned the Holy Roman Se, (The Pope), for Scotland to be part of the Kingdom of England. (This petitioning also involved other foreign rulers).
    A popular myth in English folklore was that Britain had been founded by Brutus of Troy, who had left England to his eldest son, Locrinus, and Scotland to his youngest son, Albanactus. The Scots disputed this English myth but they established their own popular myth. This was that Scotland had been founded much earlier, by a Greek prince Goídel Glas and his wife Scota, a daughter of the Pharaoh. According to legend, it was Scota who carried the Stone of Destiny from Egypt to Scotland.

    Then, massive changes came about in the Scottish kingdom’s history with the succession crisis that began in 1290 where Edward I of England claimed the right of succession to the Scottish throne. The Auld Alliance of Scotland and France against English interests first began about this time and remained in force right through to the 1500s. The Wars for Scottish Independence ended in a renewed kingdom under Robert I, (Robert the Bruce crowned in 1306), whose grandson Robert II of Scotland was the first Scottish king of the House of Stuart.
    However the problems did not end there for the arrangement was a very loose united Scotland. The Highlands & Islands were under the Scottish Clan system, The Sothern Uplands remained under a similar, but different, system of powerful, extended, families like for example the Douglas’s and the Armstrong’s. The Central Belt was more or less under the Norman feudal system with Bruce and such as the Wallace being Norman Knights.

    To a great extent Scots still see themselves as Highlanders, Lowlanders or Borderers, (Southern Uplanders), first and Scots as second, even today.

  273. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz Rannoch;

    Enjoy your break, Liz.
    🙂

    Peace Always

  274. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Ghillie
    Thank you. I’ve got much less opportunity to comment so I’m trying to be less bot-like. Sorry Reluctant. 😉

  275. COLIN ALEXANDER
    Ignored
    says:

    Driving Westbound into Glasgow on the M8, the big poster is still there:

    “SNP – Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster”.

    This is the party that people still believe will deliver independence for Scotland?

    That’s like the Tories having an election poster saying: Vote Conservative so we can redistribute the UK’s wealth and use it to improve public services and help the poor.

    No, it’s not a criticism of independence. It’s not a pro-Unionist comment.

    It’s a comment saying the SNP have had the chance to reform Scotland, to push for ever greater sovereignty for Scotland and greater reforms within Scotland.

    The best anyone can come up with is: Well, they run devolution better than SLab.

    That’s not exactly something to boast about.

    Aye, it’s easy to criticise. It definitely is, when it comes to the SNP’s 10 years of wasted power.

  276. Peter McCulloch
    Ignored
    says:

    I have to say I have never been an armchair pundit, and have been an activist for well over 30+ years.

    So I know what we are up against because I have encountered too many of those proud Brits down the years, in the 1980/90s I was threatened with assault on three separate occasions from members of Labour party.

    And during the recent General election, I had one proud Brit hand back a leaflet I put through his door, he told me the SNP had no policies and called me Nationalist scum, I responded to him in kind.

    I no longer tolerate such nonsense from those people, I have no problem with someone handing back the leaflet and saying no thanks or please don’t bother.

  277. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Peter McCulloch;

    Hi, Peter, I have been an activist for coming on 50yrs, I have been assaulted on several occasions during peaceful protests etc.

    These are dangerous times that we are living in, keep up the good work my Friend but be careful and keep yourself safe.

    Peace Always

  278. Peter McCulloch
    Ignored
    says:

    @Smallaxe says:
    24 June, 2017 at 10:36 am

    Thanks smallaxe, I am sorry to hear you
    have suffered assault on several occasions
    please be careful and keep yourself safe as
    well.

  279. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref2

    Every single piece of information that you say is lacking, is on http://www.gov.scot site.

    Not the SNP ‘party’ site.You picked up on the snp site bit not the ‘government’ site, when Robert referred to sources of information and questions you say you would want answers to

    Comparing pears with apples, as the ‘party of government’, it is the scotgov site that resolves all your issues, is in fact fully up and running and is in the process of being reconfigured:

    https://beta.gov.scot/?utm_source=gov.scot&utm_medium=betabanner&utm_content=notificartion-banner-text-button&utm_campaign=beta

    You specifically compared SLab and Scons wi SNP ‘party’ website extolling the ‘new’ articles on their sites and described Scon site as having articles that would ‘tantalise’. Even went as far as to suggest that the SNP could perhaps take a leaf out their book, and in fact outrightly called SNP’s site crap.

    Correct so far yesindyref2?

    My contention is that you have either deliberately or ignorantly failed to take the 5 seconds that it takes to go on to Scotgov site, click on ‘News’ tab…where every single press release bang up to date is there instantly?

    Meanwhile found the time moan ‘in depth’, going so far as to list questions that you want answered, that can’t be answered on the site you refer too. You have literally ‘over egged it’ to make sure everyone gets the point that the ‘SNP’ have got it wrong when it comes to putting information ‘out there’ and you utilised as the chief example of this woeful state of affairs, their ‘crap’ website as proof of this?

    So let me help ‘you’ yesindyref2.

    Here’s the first article on the ‘News’ page:

    24/06/17 00:01
    Food and drink innovation

    Here’s the second article:

    23/06/17 15:15
    Comment on cladding and high rise buildings

    And on and on it goes.

    Let’s take one of those questions you wanted answered eh?

    ‘2). How many tower blocks in Scotland have aluminium composite cladding?’

    Answer:

    ‘Communities Secretary provides further update.

    Communities Secretary Angela Constance said:

    “This week, we asked local authorities to give us further information about their high rise domestic buildings. They have reported that they have over 500 high rise domestic buildings in their areas.

    “All 32 local authorities have advised the Scottish Government that no council or housing association high rise domestic buildings have the type of cladding reported to have been used in the Grenfell tower – Aluminium Composite Material (ACM).

    “24 Local Authorities have also reported to us that no privately owned high rise domestic buildings have ACM cladding. The remainder are completing their investigations as a matter of urgency.”

    Background

    A further update will follow the Ministerial Working Group on Building and Fire Safety next week.

    The Scottish Government is grateful for the help of local authorities in gathering this information, and also appreciates the support of the Scottish Property Federation and Homes for Scotland who have written to their members asking them to work with their respective local authorities to provide information on privately owned high rise domestic properties as a matter of urgency.’

    And that’s an update. Because on the 20/6/2017, this article is ‘instantly’ accessible:

    20/06/17 18:41
    Review of building and fire safety regulations

    Note the date? I knew about this on Wednesday morning cause I clicked on an article in the evening times wherein this information was ‘out there’.

    Had it not occurred to you that you’re the one with the problem here? Because you can’t distinguish the difference between the ‘party’ that runs the government and who have a dedicated government website rather than their ‘party political’ website as the main site to inform the public and as the site that the ‘msm’ may actually go to for press releases?

    It beggars belief that you haven’t sussed this out yesindyref2? That’s why I say above, that you are comparing apples wi pears, your comparing ‘party political’ websites and entirely missing the obvious that the SNP are the ‘party’ in government tasked with appealing to and informing ‘all’ the electorate of what the government’s response is to the various issues that inform our political debate?

    Not ‘antagonistic’, challenging your assertions and questioning ‘your’ complaints.

    I hope this addresses your concern about where I’m coming from.

    Oh and ye can subscribe to the government site:

    https://register.scotland.gov.uk/Subscribe/Step1

  280. David
    Ignored
    says:

    When Questioned about the referendum or the aim to be independent, every SNP MP, should state, we are a party that was created to fight for scottish independence, thats what we stand for and we make no apologies for that stance,

  281. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Smallaxe 7.59

    What a sad tale. I have found several links and videos that point to the same statistic i.e. death toll over 300 possibly almost 400.

    The temperatures inside the building were extreme and it may not even be possible to identify human remains.

    One video I saw said that a lot of the clothes and food donated was being boxed up and sent to Oxfam and the Red Cross as there are no survivors to benefit from those gifts.

    I have also read on this site that there is a special embargo on reporting the true number.
    I’m sure other Wingers have read these things as well.

    A couple of days ago (Thursday evening about 5.45 BBC R4 Eddie Mair prog) they had a live report from two fire safety experts as they were invited in to check a flat in a tower block somewhere in London.

    This woman and her sister were so worried about the gas boiler that they hadn’t used it for 4 years and had used hot water bottles to get through the winter.

    They ‘inspectors’ absolutely horrified at their findings:
    Boiler flues and other pipes made from flammable plastic which pierced the concrete walls and had to go through the insulation to reach the outside ( could act as a fire conduit)
    Gas meter cupboards lined with plywood!;
    Gas supply through a very thin aluminium pipe which melts at about 600 degrees;
    Subsequent alterations to the building’s interior had made holes in the concrete firebreaks thereby destroying the limitation of any fire spreading in that area and many other immediately obvious factors.

    They also highlighted that because of the siting of some of these findings, they would be out of the reach of fireman’s hoses and water as they tried to extinguish the fire.

    When asked to score the flat out of 10 they both said `ZERO and FAILED’ in big letters and went on to advise that the owner of the flat pack a bag, and leave that hour and go to stay with friends till it was sorted.

    It made for horrendous listening.

    Remember those Chinese flats that collapsed because the concrete walls consisted in part of ‘olive oil’ tins and think of the PFI scandals that we are experiencing in our schools and hospitals – is it as simple as ‘ the love of money is the root of all evil’?

    To go back to your original post – I wonder if we shall ever know exactly how many people lost their lives in this truly awful way.

    (PS: I heard a report very early yesterday morning ( Today prog) that they suspect people died from cyanide fumes which were released during the fire as survivors in hospital are receiving anti-cyanide medication)

  282. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Peter McCulloch;

    Thank you, Peter, I now look at my injuries as “battle scars” and wear them proudly as I received them while doing what my conscience told me was the right thing. I will take care, although my being not as fit as I used to be curtails most of the physical activity and I’m reduced to donating and turning up at the finish of any march to show my support.

    Thank’s again Peter.

    Peace and Love to You and to Those to whom You give Your Love

  283. Smallaxe
    Ignored
    says:

    Meg merrilees;

    Hi, Meg, Firstly may I thank you for kindly taking the time to post a reply. I have to agree with you that the love of money is the root of this evil of which we speak.

    I purposely left that link (Nana’s link) until last as I thought it should stand alone to point out the inhuman practices carried out by them who would put profit before people. I am still shocked disgusted and deeply saddened by this crime, for a crime it is, and I have seen some terrible things in my lifetime.

    When the day comes that things like this don’t arouse these feelings in me then that will be the day of my own death, what these fellow humans endured and died for is abhorrent in the extreme and must never be allowed to happen ever again if it is in our power to prevent it.

    I have a brother 15yrs younger than myself who lives in Canary Wharf in London and he told me that if ever there were a fire in his building that there would be more chance of him drowning from the number of sprinklers in his apartment than any chance of a fire reaching him through the fire doors etc. Not to mention a 24hr concierge on duty. Money buys safety, safety in your home or workplace should be mandatory and free for everyone, not just for those who can afford to pay.

    Thank you, again Meg, I apologise for the delay in my answering.

    Peace and Love to You and Yours Meg

  284. Joan Edington
    Ignored
    says:

    “AREN’T in favour of the only thing that can save them from the thing they don’t want to happen.”

    I’m not quite sure of your logic here, Rev. Only 48% say no to a referendum. 52% are open to it, even if 22% are conditional.

  285. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Smallaxe, not to mention being nearly droont on Glesga Green!

  286. FIONA TOMANY
    Ignored
    says:

    i wonder what would have happened if Scotland’s vote to stay in the EU had been enough to tip the result in favour of staying the EU, but England wanted to leave im sure there would have been loads of numpties demanding another vote saying how dare Scotland do this.there would have been enough steam coming out of Idle Nigel’s to power a power station.

  287. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @K1
    You completely miss the point. Robert was talking about http://www.snp.org, not http://www.gov.scot.

    Check out his posting where he says: “Truth is that the SNP, as a party has a Website that not even a majority of the card carrying members read:- https://www.snp.org/ Own up now – how many of you read it today?

    My anwer was simple. Few read http://www.snp.org because it’s crap. The Labour one is better, and the Tory one is far better.

    I personally use http://www.gov.scot a lot. It contains masses of information. But it is not owned by the SNP. It’s a government website. The website of the Scottish Gvoernment.

    The SNP website is their political party website – or should be,

    Do you understand what I’m saying? What the difference is? It’s a major difference, mega.

  288. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    entirely missing the obvious that the SNP are the ‘party’ in government

    OK, let’s look at another website, and a direct comparison between two parties that are in government, though many would actually dispute that the UK Tories are, including the DUP.

    Look at the UK Conservative party website, and remembering that the UK media has actually been having a laugh at the paper-thin Queen’s Speech which took minutes and could be accomplished in a few months rather than 2 years, do the Conservatives answer that on gov.uk?

    No of course they don’t, that’s a government website, and there are rules after all. But they do tackle it on their own website, and it’s worth reading the article thay have for a bit of light relief and a good belly-aching laugh. I recommend it! Just wear a nose-bag, that’s all, and an airline sick-bag.

    Why on earth anyone would want to defend a crap website like the SNP’s, rather than saying it’s crap so that finally they might get the message and DO something about it, I really don’t know.

    And yes, I have emailed in the past / contact form – no response, nothing done. The ivory tower hath no eyes and no ears for us mere mortals.

    Anyway, I’m done with this futile argument. I don’t see the point in personal insults, apart from giving the insulter a bit of self-relief.

  289. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    So coming onto to Wings to air your grievances about the snp’s website, specifically stating that it doesn’t provide you with ammo to fire back to unionist SNPBAAD, citing all of your specifics questions regarding the lack of information from that site:

    ‘@ K1 says: “Why are you so pissed off with the SNP”

    The SNP is not their website K1, which is just as well!

    OK, here’s some questions, to be answered from the SNP website front page, or an article linked from it, or even a tab at the top of the page:

    1). When’s the Forth Crossing due to open, and a picture of it?
    2). How many tower blocks in Scotland have aluminium composite cladding?
    3). How much CAP convergence uplift should Scotland be getting, that Carmichael generously shared out over the rest of the UK rather than giving it to Scotland which was the cause of it – as we have the lowest Pillar 1 of the whole UK, and considerably less than most if not all of the EU countries? Same thing for Pillar 2?
    4). What was Tusk’s answer to May’s “generous” offer to EU citizens resident in Scotland and the rest of the UK?
    5). What’s the estimated current bill for the UK of the Tories needing the DUP to stay in power?
    6). What do the SNP think of Common Weal’s currency paper? Interesting would be a good start, and non-committal!
    7).

    Well, you get the picture, or at least we all would if they actually wrote some stuff on their stupid website.’

    When you yourself have just said you check on scotgov which does indeed have ‘press releases’ etc, another one of your grievances yiref2 against snp website, which does provide information about many of the subjects you want info about? So your complaint seems to still be that they should run their SNP website like the Tories, who you keep suggesting others to read to back up your claim and take lessons from firstly scons and now ukcons website’s?

    Hey yesindyref2 if your are a conservative voter that’s fine, but to persist in basically attacking the snp for their ‘crap’ website and fault find on what is by anyone’s standards a pretty petty issue, on the grounds that you can’t get this info anywhere else, rather than emphasise the actual site Scotgov for others to find press releases and various other info, to aid them in countering the obvious pish of unionist politicking on just about every issue under the sun that the msm and scon and slab attack them on daily, seems an odd way of supporting the SNP’s actual record in government?

    I also mentioned in one of my replies to you, that I didn’t think they would have the resources to counter the onslaught in the manner that you think they should, the sheer volume of possible duplications and the fire fighting involved is far and away beyond even what the UK cons have to contend with?

    To be fair too, it’s only the last few days that the website has not had the usual frequency of articles, if you go back a page and back again, have a quick look, the articles have actually been consistently regular, at least one every couple of days and at times a couple on any one day, this week seems to be the exception yesindyref2?

    Not so on Scotgov site though. The snp are promoting their vision and their manifesto commitments covering every aspect of how they view those commitments will help various sectors within our communities etc. on the SNP website. They do have articles countering both conservative and labour nonsense, but maybe, just maybe this week is the odd week out?

    I don’t agree that it’s ‘crap’, I do see that you think it is, I’m merely disagreeing with you and asking why you haven’t balanced your overall grievance about this in such a way that it diffuses the overall tone on this thread (which at the time of posting) especially where it became back to back ‘everything is shite’ and it seemed to me you were only too willing to put out there your own moans about their website on this thread when some of us were actually just trying to counter and diffuse that rhetoric?

    I also said you already know the situation we are in with this relentless pish:

    ‘But you know the truth of the matter re CAP, you inform others as much as ye can or are able to yesindyref2, that’s all any of us have been doing over the years isn’t it on most of the SNPBAAD assault from all quarters?’

    It’s this you’re not willing to address yesindyref2, far easier for you to accuse me of being ‘antagonistic’, of course that’s not ‘insulting’ at all, is it?

    Far easier to reduce this disagreement to ‘futile’ because I have a view at odds with yours and chip in a little insult yersel’ eh?

    Next ye’ll be telling us aw that Sturgeon should drop the ‘angry woman’ stance, cause no one likes an ‘angry woman’? Yeah that was unadulterated pish too. Enjoy yer futility.

    End.

  290. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @K1 “yada yada

    We’re going to need more Imodium!

  291. Cicero
    Ignored
    says:

    Despair not!(speaking as an Irishman). We went through valley periods during our long struggle for independence when the national spirit seemed to irreversibly ebb. Just hang on there and it will come good.

  292. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Yeah insulting little dick reveal his own hypocrisy…yet again. Keep it up wee man.

  293. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @K1
    This will be my last direct, or indirect, reply to you.

    For over a year you’ve mounted these personal attacks on me. I don’t know what your fascianation is with me, but I’m afraid it’s not returned. My only interest is in Independence, and doing my best when neccessary, to criticise or support whichever is appropriate, such as the SNP who are the main hope of achieving that.

    I am a member of the SNP though probably shouldn’t be as my nature is non-aligned, and perhaps my best capability is to support as a non-aligned punter, but like all SNP members I’ve talked to have criticisms of their approach at times, and even of some of their policies. In general, even without the Independence part of their manifesto, I support their policies far more than those of other parties – and their record in office.

    But criticism is neccessary, only with criticism can improvements be made, blind support for errors and weaknesses just leave those errors and weaknesses in place. Sensible businesses work that way, they respond to customer criticisms, look for the justification in those criticisms, and if appropriate, take action to improve their products, service – or websites. I have websites for my businesses, and am actually embarrassed now when I think of some of the mistakes or weaknesses there that were nicely – or nastily – pointed out by customers. The SNP should be the same, but curl up in a ball and become defiant when criticised, which is not a constructive way to progress.

    As far as I’m concerned, I wish you luck and “wings” in your support for Independence, but will have nothing further to do with you.

  294. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘For over a year you’ve mounted these personal attacks on me’

    Assertion. Evidence?

    yesindyref2?

    I’ve explained exactly where I’ve come from in relation to your complaining ‘on this thread’, it’s a bit more nuanced than you interpretation of where ‘you think’ I’m coming from and without a shadow of a doubt ‘For over a year you’ve mounted these personal attacks on me’ is bat shit paranoia and verifiably untrue, a blatant lie yesindyref2.

    So go on and have yer little ‘ahm no talking to you again’ strop and flounce away with your ‘Mr reasonable’ ‘who’s had enough of a make believe story in ma ain heid’ if ye want?

    The reality is, you launched a full on over egged nonsense criticism about their website on a thread where the level of negative and SNPBAAD was already in defeatist pessimistic free fall, you were happy to add your voice to that chorus yesindyref2, for what? To constantly ‘paint’ yersel’ as some ‘balanced’ voice on here. Well it didn’t work and fyi that nonsense rarely does.

    What you’re avoiding is addressing that yesindyref2. What you resorted to at the end of your previous comment was ‘personal insult’ having literally just stated in your previous to that comment:

    ‘I don’t see the point in personal insults, apart from giving the insulter a bit of self-relief’

    So I hope you enjoyed ‘relieving’ yourself yesindyref2.

    It’s pretty clear whose ‘axe’ is being ground here, it’s you who has ‘mounted’ the personal attack here. You first sentence is an unfounded accusation. Prove it, links, evidence?

  295. David
    Ignored
    says:

    If people on here resort to just insulting each other you may as well close it down, this site is about opinions not discussions and arguments with each other, i have left groups before because of this type of behaviour, respect and good manners cost nothing, so behave in a civilised manner or don’t bother to comment, have a joke yes, but that’s part of the fun of it all



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