Wings Over Scotland

So, no column that indicates 52% want one? 😉

bang, bang

The thing is, I want rid of the monarchy, but if I was given the choice between an independent Scotland with the Queen remaining head of state, or staying in the UK with an elected head of state, I’d choose the former, because I want independence more than I want a republic.

A lot of those folk unfortunately still think being in the UK and out of the EU is better than being in the EU and out of the UK. We’ve got to change that.

People need to be slapped by a big wet fish, Brexit disaster with inept Westminster will provide it. But there also needs to be a simple clear strategy with bitesize goals that is digestible for the electorate instead of 100 voices with 100 issues all shouting at the same time. Challenge Brexit with the alternative progressive vision powered by a coherent and constructive argument that all the Indy movement can sign up to and launch with a powerful united voice.

I reckon if we were threatened with being completely obliterated by nukes if we didn’t vote yes the majority would still want shackled to the union. No surrender!

Here’s hoping that the horrible outcome of Brexit becomes clear and the lifeboat option is launched.

Sometimes it’s better to let people suspect you are an idiot, rather than open your mouth and confirm it.

I always felt this applied to all of our broadcasters and media, and now I am certain. How on earth can the media still try to portray the UK as being in control of anything. The last 18 months have seen it lurch from crisis to crisis unabated, without any sense of plan, purpose, or direction. and yet they still try to give the impression of all being under control.

The next time somebody tries to tell me that Mrs May is cunning and worthy of her position as a shrewd politician ,I will laugh in their face. She is haphazard at best ,and fortunate at worst. Luckily we still have a choice in the offing, which the poll fails to indicate. 52% of Scots want that choice at some point of the Brexit omnishambles. Good enough for me.

52% support for holding a second independence referendum

what was the support for holding the first referendum, two years before it was held?

I don’t know the answer but from memory it was under 30%?

That’s what happens when you have the BBC pumping out nonsense as news.

Anything unionists say is promoted with a tone of balanced and reasonable

Anything a nationalist says is a threat and fanciful

The “Mail” messages of bigotry and hatred are repeated by the BBC on a daily basis. No mention of the Mail radicalizing right wingers.

The SNP needs to go on the attack and acknowledge the problems (there are the making of Westminster Governments) but provide leadership and an alternative with a vision of the future that is not grim

Clearly a future in the UK outside the EU is going to be very grim. An independent future in the EU will be better and different.

Yup.

There’s a particular truth about Scotland which on one hand is sad, but on the other lessens disappointments if we acknowledge it and channel our efforts. It is this: Scotland has never been wholly united in the cause of independence. There have always been other issues and some of the population who had another agenda, or different perceptions, or ignorant of what was going on, or seeking personal advantage. Think of the Wars of Independence and Bannockburn: there were ‘Better Together’ Scots on the English side.

But the UK’s legacy of imperial might and international prestige is vanishing: there will be less confusion in the years to come.

I picked up a Daily Record at work the other day and got the distinct feeling ‘whinging Scots’ are most comfortable being whinging scots, almost like they enjoy it…..their comfortable place.

I am not a whinging Scot, but a realist. Heads down for the next few months then slowly start talking about our escape plan…..and it neeeds a credible proposal around currency….or we will lose again and its off to the sun for me.

Good point Iain. What’s so inherent in the Scottish psyche going through the centuries that stops a big percentage of Scots to be against their own countries aspirations? We are quite unique on earth. Maybe until that question is answered we will never achieve the goal. BTW has anyone been watching the sky series on past British lions tours? It’s truly horrific viewing for me anyway. Watching these so called Scots working themselves into a frenzy because it’s Britain. Mcgeechan last night was a pure embarrassment I have to say.

I wonder when all those young Corbyn supporters are going to realise that old man Corbyn is just as keen to leave the EU as the Tories?

It’s almost like, we’re afraid of the responsibility and would rather be in the shit, just so long as we can blame someone else. I other words that allows us to escape responsibility for voting No also.

I read regular press statements and tweets from the SG that are ignored by the media and feel a rebuttal unit will similarly be disregarded and consequently have little effect.

Gordon Innes: “I think we really need to get to grips with understanding this if we want to be able to convince a majority to vote against what some would still consider the relative security of being part of the UK.”

Yep. I feel like we’re still not good enough at trying to understand *why* folk don’t think our way, and until we do, we’ll never be able to change their minds.

Three years on and you still see some folk refusing to actually believe a majority voted No, never mind trying to understand WHY they voted No.

I am very bored with all this in or out nonesense, life is simple if you look at it in certain ways
This is my take on europe and the UK
get out of both these political unions, and then we can decide what paths we want to take, both these unions just hold us back from being the socialist democracy we want to be
Trade will allways happen between countries, as you walk down your street have a look and see how many different countries export their cars to britain, do you think those countries want to see us refuse to import their cars, so lets get serious for once, trade between countries is paramount to eveything, whether it be cars, food, armaments, anything you can think of will allways be traded, to say scotland would lose jobs if we where out of the european union is just simply ridiculous, scotland has actually lost jobs because we are part of the UK, look up the history of the clyde , remember the great Jimmy Reid and the work ins, then look at what thatchers government did to the clyde, revenge for Ted Heath’s government was the main reason, tories never forget, they just bide their time till they get the power to go in for the kill
Out of politically run europe and out of politically run britain, c’mon you know it makes sense !

I know one of these people in real life. She voted to leave the EU but now regrets her vote and says she only did it because it would be a laugh and she didn’t think it would actually happen. But she’s also dead against indy, the SNP and hates Sturgeon with a passion. But can offer no real reason as to why, she just does.

She’s also a single mother of four who relies heavily on benefits, yet she quite likes the tories because she thinks Boris Johnson is a bit of a character. Other than all that she’s a perfectly lovely, sane, hard working normal person. I just don’t get people sometimes.

No matter what happens Scots just seem to want to wait and hang on….like what Alison Rollo says above

The answer is really very simple, we just need a fair and balanced media, and then people can make an untarnished true informed choice.

One_Scot: “The answer is really very simple, we just need a fair and balanced media, and then people can make an untarnished true informed choice.”

The thing is, that’s nae happening. Ever. So we need to do it some other way.

Things are going to have to get a lot worse before people actually realise this is the logical way forward for Scotland. At the moment it is more convenient for people to choose not to see the light. The majority are selfish so until it directly impacts the majority in a significant way then we won’t win. In the meantime we can all just sit back and enjoy the concussion from smashing our heads off the nearest hard surface.

Brexit may yet give us the opportunity to win an independence referendum but it’s far from the certainty that many suggested it was. So what now for YES ?

The SNP needs to change. Less management and ignoring of the membership by the ‘all knowing’ inner sanctum of leaders, more democracy, conferences that actually are conferences and not rallies in praise of the ‘great and good’. More political education self conducted by the grass roots members. A change of attitude where the party sees itself as the largest element in a diverse independence movement rather than paying lip service to the rest of YES while actually behaving as if the SNP alone is the movement – with a few other hangers on.

Commonweal and others have shown that the banality of recent SNP electoral offers, and the plodding ‘safety first of the Scottish Government, have helped to create the party’s present problems. We need to start holding meetings, publishing locally focused material and talking to people about the nature and advantages of self determination for small European nations. We’ve let the unionists push us onto the sterile ground of the referendum itself, and its date(s), being the issue.

Talk about “stupidity” is destructive – please stop it !

All this boils down to keeping independence very much on the table but getting our own house in order and offering a clearer vision of a better, independent future – not a tedious wrangle about dates.

Firstly – I know im arrogant. So thats out of the way.

Second – people are fkn stupid. The majority of people dont know there arse from their elbow politically, economically or historically. Nor are they interested in updating their profound lack of knowledge in anything that affects their life. They just want someone to blame when its crap and hope that ‘they’ will do the right things while they turn on whatever imbecilic trash they like to zombie-out to on the telly.

Politicians are largely reactionary, they will only do what is within the basic mindset of the population and the overall zeitgeist.

Garbage in. Garbage out.

Dont worry though, with Brexit being the mismanaged shitshow that it promises to be ordinary people will find themselves so affected by basic economic reality that another opportunity will arise to ‘guide the herd’ towards what might be good for them.

David Halliday @ 11:53:

I agree.

It’s good to want to build a cross-societal consensus but the Yes voters who ‘got it’ first time out shouldn’t be neglected as other groups are chased. I don’t think the Scottish electorate will ever let any party or movement away with the level of being taken for granted that, say, Scottish Labour did ever again.

The crux as always is a viable vision of an independent Scotland. Support for a referendum is affected by that, or the lack of it.

Many people see independence where Scotland is in the EU/SM and rUK is outside as being a tall order, and not automatically better economically than Scotland inside a brexited UK. I worry that eventually we get our referendum and the result is No again, because a compelling case can’t be made.

Heard Michael Gove’s digs at SNP on BBC . How is that being constructive when entering into negotiations.

An excellent article on point 4

“4. A second independence referendum, however, IS a viable prospect. There’s majority support for it at Holyrood, the SNP have a clear manifesto mandate for it, a vote in favour has already been passed, and a Yes vote WOULD change whether Scotland was forced out of the EU or not.”

can be found at
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk

ballpark, 50k people die in scotland every year and 50k are born.

ballpark, 70 odd % over 55s voted no…..and 70 odd % 16-24 year olds voted yes.

so, we can play the long game with the numbers or the short game, starting with a credible strategy around currency.

at the moment we have nothing. nought. zip.

Andrew Morton says:
23 June, 2017 at 11:18 am
‘prefer to hang on in a crappy but seemingly certain situation rather than opt for a better but slightly different uncertain future.’

Its ‘loss aversion’ and its a behaviour recognised in the financial industry:

‘people’s tendency to prefer avoiding losses to acquiring equivalent gains: it’s better to not lose $5 than to find $5. Some studies have suggested that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains.’
(wikipedia)

naebd-I get your point but I was really referring to countries that actually voted against their own independence. Gey few…

To another union divided video on Luke Graham is on tube via PoliticsScotland Twitter account.

I think with independence we have 4 issues, No to independence wanting to stay in EU, Yes who also want stay in Europe and both sides of Indy who want to leave EU.
If we campus Independence and give clear message on Europe decision can be made after Independence.
Then we will have clarity people will settle. Just now they’re confused.
Media and Scots Tories adding to this confusion and divisiveness.

‘The SNP has nothing to do with Scottish Independence’

Now, there’s a mantra that works for soft No’s if ever there was one

…..who cares whether it is right or wrong….

Looking in from the outside (I’m Irish) I’ve always had serious doubts how far the SNP strategy of reasonable persuasion could take them. After three hundred years of being a very distant number two in the union, compounded by a century or so of the Labour Party’s “internationalism” (in any country, a beard for “you’re a worthless people in your own right, so just imitate your betters”), Scots were always going to need something emotional, not just rational, to get them over the final hump to independence. I have some ideas, but it’s not really my place. You’re going to have to force people to decide who they’re loyal to.

How many of the 48% don’t want a referendum because they just want independence through the election ballot box, there seems a number on this site who want that outcome. Just because you don’t want a referendum doesn’t necessarily indicate you don’t want independence.

It’s not always possible to say the results of a poll give an accurate reflection of things.

Joemcg @ 11.27
I don’t think that we are unique at all.
There are people in Ireland who base their whole lives around Westminster rule.
They have had a get out clause for years now and still they stay.
This is despite being fully aware of the history of the behaviour of the Westminster government, towards the Irish.
And they can say what they like in England they ARE Irish and we ARE Scottish.
They would if they could I suspect even bring their free part of their Island back under Westminster domination.

While we do have our own share of those kind of fool’s,we can at least concede this is one Island and there is a bit of a case for trying to govern it as one entity.
Although 310 years is more than enough to be able to say we tried to make it work.
And since the English electorate don’t seem to want to change the Westminster system… I am also happy to say “it’s no you it’s us!!!!

But Irish loyalists are beyond explanation, anymore!
We on the other hand have half the country who don’t want the Union,,and a fair number who would leave it quite happily if they can see a better economic future,they have no great loyalty to Westminster.
Most infact can see that Westminster doesn’t give a shit about them never has and never will.
They probably just don’t believe that Holyrood can actually get out with Scotland’s resources and that would impact on them.
That’s certainly the impression Westminster likes to give…we would go empty handed

Hopefully Brexit will show once and for all.. Westminster’s ONLY power is The Illusion of Power….An island this size could not control an empire all on it’s own,it has to have conned the people of the occupied countries in to cooperating.
That’s their only talent the bluff of a confidence trickster!

They are bloody good at it, it has to be said.
They even have their own population proud of an empire that they spilled their blood for but never saw any of the riches stolen from the other countries.

They still send their children to die, to protect not them,but the Business interests abroad, while not seeing one brass hapenny of the STERLING they so proudly claimed was theirs.
Never once thought that if it’s handed over to the bank’s how can it ever have been theirs?

So it’s not just Scots and if I had to put money on which nation on these islands is the most conned into supporting Westminster and it’s system… I would say it was the English.

Apart from the odd rumblings now and again about the Lord’s there’s no any sign at all they want to change how they are governed….And that’s a real shame they deserve better..

We can’t fix it for them… especially since they happily out vote us at every turn, that’s how much they are still enthralled by Westminster….we have to go now and leave them to it!
Hopefully one day and right soon they will wise up to it.

30% are saying they want another referendum not 52%. 22% are undecided and 48% don’t want one.

Concentrating on Brexit instead of an Inderef2 is like putting the finishing touches to the roof of your new home, but forgetting or ignoring the need to build a firm foundation first. With Inderef2 winning a majority the rest is with follow in good time. Why is it us, the punters, who can see this and the professionals either can’t see, or refuse to see this? Win Freedom first at the ballot box, then sort the rest out please Nicola.

@Another Union Dividend says:
23 June, 2017 at 10:29 am
One Scot is right most published polls reflect the views of whoever is paying for them.
============================

Not exactly, people actually do sometimes commission polls because they want information. They don’t always of course, politicians commission them to spin information. This means not all polls are 100% honestly done and results can be influenced by both the questions asked and the way that the questions are asked (and what is not asked sometimes).

The poll quoted above – people don’t get the option “do you think this is a stupid and pointless question?” They answer as best they can and if you are asked a daft question what else can you do but answer as best you can (or refuse and somebody else less particular will answer instead). For instance in the poll quoted you get 3 (sort-of) pro-IndyRef2 answers which means at least three options were given (you’d almost think to deliberately split the pro-referendum response). You could run the poll again with slight tweaking to it and get different responses.

This is of course an attempt to use a poll (whose results can change from week to week and by the way questions are asked) to undermine democracy (as others have already noted). We had an election which the SNP won with Indyref2 in their manifesto, followed by 2 other elections which the opposition ran anti-Indyref2 campaigns and lost. Democratically if certain conditions are met – some already have been – their is a mandate for Indyref2.

Good article in the National today about iScotland foreign currency reserves. Somebody on the last thread asked about this due to a couple of commenters on Richard Murphy’s blog suggesting we would need $50bn reserves to protect a floating currency.

The article is about a Common Weal report which addresses that issue and outlines how we could raise $40bn. Some economists think that is too much, I get the impression if you put more than one economist in a room they will argue, (and probably both be wrong).

While looking at this question yesterday I noticed that the UK has been steadily accumulating foreign currency reserves since the crash in 2008 (now over $150bn, $15bn of which would be ours) and I wondered why that was. This article explains that it is in case of another banking crash… so they would bail them out all over again!

BTW always check out Scot Goes Pop whenever polling issues are discussed. That’s what the site is for!
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk

Hammer Time…

link to imgur.com

Do you want shot in the head, Yes now, or NO later
Answer: Bit whit size wid the bullet be and could ah get….

Polls are stupid and the people who take part in them are stupider and the folk who design the stupid questions to ask the stupid people are very clever at getting the stupid answers they want the stupid people to argue over after they’ve done it

By and large folk will always take the easiest way out of anything it’s human nature so the clever folks at the SNP thinky department have to find a way of creating a no way out safe exit with sunshine and flowers on the other side so our fearty population don’t feel they’re taking a risk

Bearing in mind the No surrender mob are there to stay till the bitter end as loyal till the die, until the last minute then they’ll claim they were always for Independence but it just had to be clarified

And that’s Scotland
Not awkward at at all eh?

I don’t trust polls, end off.

They can and are weighted and twisted to give a resultant swing to whatever the questioner wants.

So there you go.

We were a bawhair away from Independence. Although I do think Scots – if stereotyping – are naturally pessimistic and whilst the 62% EU remain vote was very high, I don’t think all of it was for being proud Europeans etc, many of those that voted to remain were fearties too, something which is ingrained in the Scottish psyche.

We are bizzare people. Just like our sports teams – seem to produce the goods when it is too late, it doesn’t matter or we are told we are shíte (could hark that plus guilt to the high SNP GE 2017 vote)

I don’t think we are particularly special, clever or nice either; but it is my nation and I want to see Scotland free.

The SNP pro-EU logic hasn’t exactly worked, and not that I’m disagreeing, I thought at the time it was an excellent path to go down considering the high pro-Remain vote, but we’re never going to get that landslide vote nor arseholes like JK Rowling voting Yes anytime soon ; but we can get over 50%, 55% even and unfortunately, we probably have to sit tight for noo – at least until Brexit unravels.

So, whilst this poll is fairly depressing. More so the 48% NO MORE REFERENDUMS Ruth Harrison party than 52% (30% have another, 22% undecided) these things do and will change.

We are only just down the Brexit road. It is already 2-0 to the EU with the failure of agreeing to parallel talks and Junker saying May’s acceptance of EU citizens is not enough, the Brits are scrambling for relevance and will do in the talks.

The SNP should not park the second referendum, but we should decide to continue to argue for cross-party country/region team negotiating with the EU and whilst that’ll no doubt be rejected by the Tories, don’t even mention independence until Brexit is finished (if it ever happens).

Sit tight, it is already unraveling is about to even more so at a rapid pace.

I have said to a few pals and on here before that we have to let the Unionists crow a bit right now, and they can to a certain extent : but the SNP still won even if they lost 20 seats. And no doubt the likely Cyberyoons will be praising this poll etc ; but folks, it’s not worth the bother.

Just sit back and watch Brexit unfold after the summer. And we’ll see how easy this support comes back to support a second referendum/independence.

Sit tight.

What the average comentator doesn’t seem to grasp is that Scotland is an independant sovereign Nation now! it’s that the Scottish people choose to prostitute their country to the domination by a larger (neibour) nation, in an ilegal union, ref., 1707 and all that manipulating sculduggery.

As Capella points out, Scot Goes Pop has an article about this poll.

He reminds us that it is not properly weighted, so it is anyone’s guess how much credibility the results have. (He’s otherwise quite up-beat about it.)

So although there may be cognitive dissonance in evidence among the people sampled by that poll, that does not necessarily extrapolate to the population at large.

Gove ‘encouraged’ by talks with Scottish ministers

Having seen this on BBC website with comments allowed I posted regarding a Peterhead fisherman and what he said about our FM,having just switched on I found 2emails saying my post broke the house rules and the article has disappeared from BBC I wonder why.

Posting:

I would like to know if Gove met this person and if he agrees with what he had to say about our First Minister.
Having emailed Ruth Davidson regarding this she has not replied but I really did not expect one.

. Below it can be found references to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon as “one deluded BITCH!!” and he also called on Prime Minister Theresa May to “F-K the Nationlst Bitch!!.

I See the national newspaper and common space are trying to answer the currency quesion using a guy called Peter Ryan talking about foreign currency reserves.

Another huge mistake by the Indy movement I’m afraid. For the love of christ why don’t they talk to the experts on the issue.

It looks like Peter Ryan is somewhat confused. He suggests that Scotland should float its own currency but then describes how you defend a fixed exchange rate system. It also looks like he believes in bond vigilantes.

You only need to go to wikipedia to see the flaws in his arguements. Even wikipedia states in a free floating system you don’t need to protect your foreign currency reserves. It’s why most countries moved from fixed exchange rates to free floating ones.

If a government chooses a fixed exchange rate policy, and simultaneously attempts to achieve full employment, it could very well lose its foreign exchange reserves. Interest rates would be rising, as expressed by the forward price of the currency falling while the spot price is being supported by a diminishing pool of fx reserves. This could happen with either a bse program, or a more traditional spending increase.

In any case the higher interest rates may accelerate the loss of fx reserves in two ways. First, higher rates could reduce business profits and consumer spending, slowing the economy and reducing tax liabilities. Second, the higher rate of interest the government must pay to borrow itself puts more of that currency into private sector hands in the form of interest income.

Furthermore, if the government attempts to tighten fiscal policy it may slow down the economy and thereby reduce tax liabilities, weaken the currency and lose fx reserves.

That being said, if the tax liabilities happened to grow faster than government spending due to the nature of the tax structure and the institutional lending structure, such growth could be associated with currency strength.

With a floating rate currency however, interest rates are set exogenously( there’s no such thing as bond vigilantes interest rates are set by the central bank) and fx reserves are not at risk. Therefore full employment policy can achieve full employment with no risk of loss of fx reserves. However, the currency could depreciate.

Japan has proved this for decades now and has completely debunked mainstream economic theory on this issue. As you can quite clearly see from the link provided below

link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net

The argument can be made that full employment policy could result in the depreciation of the fx value of the currency. However, one must look at the effect on imports and exports to determine the policy implications. If total imports remain the same, and only the distribution of imports changes, the macro effect is only the redistribution of the consumption of the imports. If imports increase, at the macro level the welfare of the population is enhanced. The only reason to trade at all is to import. So only if total unit volume of imports falls could the case be made that welfare has been diminished.

Likewise, exports are the macro cost of imports. The combination is called the terms of trade. Maximising unit volume of imports relative to exports is how a population maximises its terms of trade. For example, if unit volume of imports increases more than exports due to currency depreciation, the country is better off.

I have yet to see anyone make the case that full employment policy decreases the terms of trade through currency depreciation, induced by any additional national income due to increased net government expenditures.

Furthermore, without full employment, the concept of comparative advantage does not exist, and trade often simply serves to facilitate a race to the bottom. Business and production flows to areas with the most unemployment and the lowest labour costs. So to attract foreign enterprise a nation must maintain high levels of unemployment as well as offer high profit potential. Neither is good for the domestic population. This pitiful yet near universal policy is being further perpetuated by a fundamental and costly misunderstanding of how currencies operate.

A job guarentee is how you do that. You concentrate on domestic demand.

MMT economists are concerned about how you provide full employment *and* price stability. We already know from the post war approach that if you go for full employment you get inflation. The existence of wage/price spirals is in the preface of the 2nd edition of ‘Full employment in a free society’ and was a concern in 1960 before it blew up completely in the 1970s. And we know from the neoliberal era that if you hold inflation you get unemployment – so much so the mainstream redefined unemployment as ‘full employment’ as a workaround. The problem in both cases is that they address only aggregate demand, not effective demand.

The job guarentee allows you to stabilise both aggregate demand and aggregate supply by removing capital’s power to dictate wages *and* capital’s power over supplying the source of wages and the output it generates.

As Warren Mosler puts it – the Job Guarantee *is* an incomes policy.

The majority of just want to put back in place Beveridge style aggregate demand management without anything substantive to address the price stability issue.

Anyways I’ve forwarded the currency white papers to Prof Bill Mitchell and other MMT economists to analyse. Who are experts around the accounting and flow of funds sectoral balances approach.

Stephanie Kelton manged to convince the Bank Of England to use this approach last Summer.

link to bankunderground.co.uk…

I’m pretty sure the white papers are going to be torn apart because they are very confused indeed. It is a bad day for us when all our opponents need is wikipedia to destroy our main arguement.

If there really is NO APPETITE for a referendum to even take place, then it reasonably follows that support for indy should be nowhere near enough to come near 50% nevermind win.

If i was a unionist, i would be ABSOLUTELY DEMANDING there is a referendum NOW.

No waiting until later when support might increase after a disasterous brexit and shambles at WM.

Where is this demand to hold a referendum RIGHT NOW while there is ZERO hope (apparently) for Yes winning ?

If Yes lose the next referendum, indy is dead for decades, and the SNP could be severely damaged.

Such a prize in waiting for unionists winning a referendum the unionists claim the Yes campaign cannot win and nobody wants in the first place..!!

Yet, here they are, running scared from even having such a referendum which, according to every unionist with a poll result, will crush the indy dream for decades if not forever.

Where is the screaming headlines…”lets have the damn referendum and crush them once and for all” ?

A mild cynic would think they are talking through a hole in their Union flag.

“Its all rather bleak isn’t it?”

Are you for real??

For months now we’ve been watching the Yoons froth and lather themselves up into a frenzy of “Take IndyRef2 off the table!” “Naebody wannts a 2nd Referendum!” Comical as hell.

Mind you, perhaps if they’d said “Please!” Nicola might have given their desperate pleas a nano second of thought before parking IndyRef2 right on that big effing Brexit negotiating table.

Bleak, yae say? I’m am laughing my nuts off at them right now. So should you. Yoons desperate as fuck – what’s no’ tae like? What’s bleak about that? You can smell their fear every time they open their mouths and spew endless grabage all over our tellies and radios courtesy of BBC Pravda.

And the biggest laugh?

We haven’t even STARTED yet! Just wait and see what they’ll be like when we get the YES band back together.

LMBHAO

I remain optimistic despite everything.

There an not so old adage – achieving independence is too big a job for the Scots alone, we need the help of the Tories.

The current generation of Tories appear to be the most bungling incompetent set of wannabe politicians I have certainly ever seen. No plans, no skills, no ideas. Yet they are embarking on a suicidal dissassociation with the EU and relentlessly driving the breakup of their state.

Not to mince words – they are going to fck up big time.

We are still in the eye of the prefect storm, and it seems quiet. We have a strong Scottish government with a triple mandate to call an independence referendum, concurrent with a Tory driven political crisis.

Just wait till the winds pick up and the true nature of Brexit and the implications for Scotland become impossible to hide any longer.

Stead as we go!

Proud Cybernat says:

We haven’t even STARTED yet! Just wait and see what they’ll be like when we get the YES band back together.

Exactly!

We have had a relentless anti Indy campaign for two years now. And it’s been getting ramped up higher and higher.

Simultaneously, Yes have just been ticking away in the background. The only real move has been putting a conditional second referendum on the table. But no significant Yes campaigning.

“Just wait” until Brexit is clearly going to be a shite show, ScotRef is announced, and we all fire up our motors!

Yeah despair because what’s happening right now is solid proof that Scots are a bunch of fucking morons. If 2014 wasn’t proof enough then just take a look at the last general election.

Scottish people are supporting political parties the way they support football teams and it’s a fucking embarrassment. The SNP bad position is now beyond a joke. I’d love to round up every woman who placed a tactical vote just ‘cos they don’t like the SNP, put them in a fucking time machine and have them explain themselves to the the women who committed their lives to ensuring that they had the right to vote … then round up every male who voted tactically and have their right to vote removed, along with their baws preferably.

“Democracy” … I dunno about this.

Independence isn’t going to happen. The majority of this country are too fucking stupid. I’d put all your energy into just making sure we have the best government possible.

…and when the YES band get back together we someone like THIS INSPIRATIONAL leader to take charge of it…

link to imgur.com

Personally I think the SNP leadership should take a back seat and let the Indy2 Campaign be led by someone like the guy above; someone who can inspire a compelling vision of a New Scotland that is within touching distance and who has the skills to ensure that the masses buy into that vision and take ownership of it – a ‘people’s champion’ enabling the people with a better future.

By keeping the politicos at arms length from the debate, then we empower ourselves because WE then frame the debate – ‘the people’ against ‘the Establishment’. A People’s Movement – NOT a political aspiration by just one or two political parties. And BBC Pravda will have a much harder time making a genuine People’s Movement all about one politician’s ‘vanity project’ and cannot easily demonise anyone in the way they did to Salmond and are trying to do with Sturgeon.

We need to get EVERYONE from every background on board. We can only do that with an apolitical People’s Movement.

We got it partly right in IndyRef1 with the YES campaign. But it took time for that grassroots campaign to fully flourish into a genuine People’s Movement. Next time we must do that right from the get-go. And Blair Jenkins – lovely guy but just no where near the inspirational orator YES2 campaign will need.

Let the SNP work behind the scenes sorting currency, EU negotiations etc. They should not take part in any TV / Radio debates because that simply allows the BritNat Establishment to fight on the ground of THEIR choosing, framing the debate in their own corrupt way. The BBC can ask our inspirational leader all the important questions and all they need do is reply in a similar manner as the guy in the image (link) above.

IR2 should be all about the vision of a better Scotland; not a perfect Scotland but a wealthier, healthier and happier Scotland; a Scotland where we finally stand on our own two feet and finally stop whinging and take full, adult responsibility for ourselves.

So – who is this inspirational orator we need? Names?

The Scottish electorate wha’es like them? The abysmally stupid?

Yup bob p, their politics consist of f**k ra Pope,and,we arra peeple.

Give the claim credit it doesn’t deserve, but even suppose there was a dent support for Independence and a referendum once Brexit was clear, transport yourself forward a year to 18 months from now, when getting dragged out of Europe is an imminent reality, and the UK Trade Deals we’ve heard so much about are about as substantial as the promises and vows Westminster made to Scotland before YES2014.

That’s when we’ll be having the referendum, and IF for some godforsaken reason the ScotRef had been shelved, just imagine how we’d all be kicking ourselves to have squandered our only realistic chance of a secure future in Europe.

The only thing that worries me is the wall to wall propaganda. In Orwell’s 1984, the Ministry of Truth had the job of air brushing history and rewriting it. Here in 21st Century Scotland, the propagandists are re-writing the history before it’s even written down as history in the first place. Witness the Tory election victory of 13 seats in 59. Witness the “no appetite for a second referendum” horseshit when half the damned country would take Independence tomorrow and nearly every man Jack of them feels cheated by the appalling betrayal of the 2014 promises.

The BBC and Tories are playing with your heads people of Scotland. The UK is heading for an economic and socially divisive tailspin, and in due course, we are going to be mightily glad that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP has provided Scotland with a parachute.

The Unionists need Scottish Independence crushed, because the UK without Scotland is an economic basket case, and Westminster cannot afford to lose face by having England labouring in a swamp of austerity, hardship, class division and xenophobic isolation while up here, Scotland grows from strength to strength forging new and closer ties with the progressive initiatives happening in Europe and Scandinavia, and developing a low carbon green economy which will become the envy of the world.

Look at what the Unionists do to our new and political debate. They cannot countenance the possibility of us even discussing the mere practicalities of Independence without foaming at the mouth.

Look at the Rev’s highlighted Tweet. All the Unionists have to do to sink ScotRef is vote No in the same numbers they did last time. Ask yourself why they’re so shit scared of another referendum.

boomshanka says:
23 June, 2017 at 3:37 pm
Yeah despair because what’s happening right now is solid proof that Scots are a bunch of fucking morons.

You’re ignoring the incredible SNP bad, indy worse propaganda that belches out of BBC Scotland alone surely?

This is what propaganda is all about, brain washing people into accepting stuff that you want them too. Its being going on since we we lived in caves.

People want to conform and if Aunty BBC is both schmoozing you and raging at you to be British and conform, that is probably what you’ll do, just get some peace.

As for the Mundell threat to Sturgeon, he is correct in one sense because if we hold Indyref2 and lose she will probably resign. On the other hand if we win his future is perpetual opposition in an independent Scotland or in the Unitary Kingdom House of Lords, for Scotland sake lets hope he chooses the later.

Proud cybernat 3.48pm. If mother teresa herself could come back and lead the snp. The msm and BBC scum would demonise and vilify her.

if scotland is a basket case, i will buy her for a pound.

if she is viable, i will biy her for ten trillion….money grows on trees don’t you know….

Spring 2019 – at the latest – regardless of Westminster and brexit. Set it now. Or what Tatu3 said.

An english friend of mine on the phone recently asking about buying a business in Scotland.the the advice i gave him was,wait till after the next indy referendum. Because if Scotland lose it,would you really think you’d be welcome here?.

@Bob p

What do you mean by that? Why would he not be welcome here? Are you saying that if the Yes side loses the next referendum, that anger will transform into anti-Englishness?

I highly doubt the majority of Yes voters would be that bitter. English people, like all other people, will always be welcome in Scotland, no matter its constitutional status.

“I have no idea what you’re laughing at.
The Westminster mob are a laughing stock defo but ultimately they will be laughing tears of joy while we stay sitting in tears of self harm.”

Naw – they’ll be bawling their effing eyes oot when Scotland says, “Cheerio – nice knowin’ ya! Oh – and thanks for the fish!”

See it. Believe it. It’s comin’:

link to imgur.com

Christ we’re great at destroying ourselves, we don’t need much in the way of a push tae get stuck right intae self imploding these day dae we?

Keep it up, I’m fucking blind sided by the strength of unity on display since that election, the one where voters gave the majority to those candidates from the SNP. But that’s no how it works any mair apparently, now people are genuinely falling for the ‘notion’ ‘that the combined vote share of all other party’s, whose candidates are on the ballot paper, having not achieved ‘more than’ the actual candidate who actually did win in those constituencies, are now regarded as the ‘overall’ winners in any election in the UK’

Stunning int it? Why aren’t those combined vote share winners now heading down tae Westminster?

Oh that’s right, because they fucking lost! Nicola Sturgeon wasn’t on the ballot paper. She’d already won in 2016 in the SE.

Oh and just in case it isn’t clear, to the numpty who perpetually goes on about ‘how we are voting for individual MP’s on the ballot’, I’d like to know what the combined voteshare was for all the other party’s candidates on your ballot paper in your constituency, and ask are you going to apply that ridiculous logic to your own chosen representative’s ‘win’? In effect if there are 5 different party’s in contention, with a 100 votes cast, your candidate gets 32, the others 23, 20, 17, 8.

Who fucking won? Does it take away your candidate’s legitimacy as the ‘winner’ because the combined votes of all the other party’s on the ballot are what now ‘count’ and therefore ‘their’ manifesto’s should be implemented?

Seriously pish on stilts.

Well until we can do something about the MSM in Scotland people are going to continue to vote through ignorance and misinformed knowledge.

K1 @ 17:06,

“Snap!”

(Maybe some concern trolling comin’ in today too?)

K1 we can debate/argue this topic till the cows come home. Nobody’s talking about chibbing anyone. All I’ve said if half a million southern immigrants vote as they did last time (which no doubt a lot of them will).we will lose indy ref2. Are you telling me this won’t cause resentment in some quarters,or does that make me a racist now.for stating the obvious?.

Bob p at 5.34

Can you supply an evidence about how the LESS THAN 500,000 southern immigrants voted.

Most of the young “southern” immigrants I know voted YES and most of the old ones voted NO – bit like the the rest of the resident population actually. The majority of the southern immigrants are non economically active retired persons whom we have to persuade not accuse

“..remain in Scotland AND the EU…”

Life in a country that’s not in a farce union with its neighbour, actual meaning ofcourse the bigger neighbour runs the smaller,

link to archive.is

Thursday 22 June 2017 18.01 BST First published on Thursday 22 June 2017 15.23 BST

Norway has issued a blunt threat to Brazil that if rising deforestation in the Amazon rainforest is not reversed, its billion-dollar financial assistance will fall to zero. The leaders of the two nations meet in Oslo on Friday.

The oil-rich Scandinavian nation has provided $1.1bn to Brazil’s Amazon fund since 2008, tied to reductions in the rate of deforestation in the world’s greatest rainforest. The destruction of forests by timber and farming industries is a major contributor to the carbon emissions that drive climate change and Norway views protecting the Amazon as vital for the whole world”

Its a stark thought though, Scotland could easily have been like Norway too. Instead we’re shackled to an odd country, fore lock tugging, royals groveling, insular, exceptionalism, dripping nostalgia, with predilections for very hot wars, in hot defenceless countries, too far away to be a real threat because they joyfully believe they win all wars, like WW2.

On well, hope all the red and blue tory roasters and zoomers in Scotland are right about British Empire 2.

Proud cybernat. 5.46pm I hope your right,and fervently hope im wrong,but time will tell

he evidence shows that the southern immigrant population voted NO in about the same percentage as our own retired age group.

There are more pressing concerns with the retired non economically active immigrants who do not bring children,closing our rural schools in the process and making it impossible for our own folk to buy housing or small businesses in their own areas.

These are not bad people and we should understand that but we have to somehow balance the effect they are having in our rural communities. They are with us however and there is not a lot can be done and in the short term significant numbers of them have to be persuaded to vote yes. Exactly the same as with our own old population.

A priority for Scot Gov is to identify and treat the endemic stupid gene from Brexi supporters.

Just listen to the Corries “Who”ll take the ball from Maggie Thatcher:
Brings a wee smile

Rarely watch reporting scotland.
What a bloody joke.
We are all safe though because of the RAFs quick reaction force so that’s a relief.

As with a few other posters I think the “people are stupid” trope is lazy and ultimately stops us digging deeper into what might motivate people to move in our direction.

A couple of thoughts which might lie behind the “not another indyref” sentiment out there…

– As a citizenry we were threatened remorselessly by the British state and its surrogates leading upto Sept2014. Bad stuff was wished on us by the most powerful people and institutions in the land. People internalize that and perhaps understandably think they’d rather not have those threats being dished again any time soon. I know we are taught to stand up to bullies but many Scots are in my view at the stage of blaming the victim for attracting the bully’s ire.

– in a similar psychological vein I sense from several conversations that many Scots didn’t enjoy the strained conversations that the indyref provoked with friends, neighbours and families. While I enjoyed the political awakenings and the utopian thinking of the Yes movement I also regret losing some friends, having awkward conversations with family members at the breakfast table, and finding out that I didn’t know neighbors as well as I thought I did. Do people want to go through that social friction so soon after the last time? While like most of us here I think this potential awkwardness is worth it if we can get a more cohesive and fairer nation as a result, I know that the social bonds we currently all have are valuable to us and might be worth more than another eighteen months of arguing in the pub or the shop over who said what in the Herald, on the BBC, or in the Daily Record.

Despite Carole Craig’s support for No in the indyref, her book, “The Scots Crisis of Confidence”, should be required reading for those of wanting to understand how our fellow citizens find themselves struggling to imagine a better future for Scotland. Once I read this book I suddenly realized how some of the defeatist and quiescent attuitudes to life that my grandparents, parents, and friends took on we’re related to those deep historical forces which threatened and bullied ordinary Scots.

And of course all this psychic bullying whether it took place by the factors of the Clearances era, the slum-landlords of the last century, or the vicious and spiteful media entities that we have the misfortune to be slugged by on a daily basis, does grind people down and make them risk-averse and placid.

As a countervailing force we need as many confident, kind, selfless people advocating for us as we can find and we need to support those in the independence movement who have the gumption to argue the case for a modern egalitarian, peace loving European nation. People minds do change, sometimes very quickly as the last GE showed. We shouldn’t be despondent right now, just be as prepared as possible for the next campaign when it inevitably comes.

Got the feeling the britnat media has already made its mind up about brexit. It’s all the EU’s fault!

@Murray 7:05pm.

Fair enough, Murray. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Artyhettey @
Thank You it was very kind of you to say,and,yes ofcourse I don’t mind that you saved the comment.
I hope it helps.

Ref ” Scottiedog” at 0649 pm re Reporting North Britain, obviously
Donaldo has informed ” Union Jackie” that she is now ” a big game player” ( due to over exposure) as the program was being locally labelled as ” the Jackie Bird show”. Jackie is now being held in reserve for ” news where you are” big label items such as elections, NHS, Education or police Scotland ” specials” or Royal visits with Pacific Quay ” flunkeys” in attendance.( at absolutely no detriment to her not inconsiderable salary obviously).
Yes, how reassuring that ” brilliant Einstein intelligent” EXPATS are so dedicated in their defence
of North Britain as obviously there is such a dearth of ” local talent” with the ” mission control Houston” ,ability and skills to defend our homeland?

@ North Cheil 4.58

Of course they need the SNP out at the next Holyrood elections, they still have £7B+ to screw out of us and the only ones that would stop that are those bad separatists.

Every single one of the other parties will roll over like the good pets they are.

JCs Labour are no different from the Tories, they need the money to implement policies if they were in control and who would they come gunning for? Pooling and sharing, pooling and sharing.

I explain this to people and get a total disbelieving stare or comment.

All Scotland does is cash cheques that WM writes and at some point it will come to a head. When it does, I hope its not too late for us.

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

From Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark