stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Come On Arlene

Posted on June 24, 2017 by

Print Friendly

    277 to “Come On Arlene”

    1. Macandroid says:

      What’s Arlene holding behind her back?

      Nice one Chris

    2. Ruglonian says:

      Spot on as usual Chris!

      Every time I see May now I’m reminded of the Doctor Who episode where he brings the PM down with six words: “don’t you think she looks tired?” so I’m glad to see you’ve captured the likeness of her eyebags 😉

    3. Ken500 says:

      Blood and guts. The both of them. Unionism. You won’t get her she part of the uniom. You won’t get her she’s part of the Union till the day she resigns. Till the day she resigns. Union in melt down. Foster wants another £2Billion. To keep her quiet. To add to the wasted pile. Burned up in smoke. 12th of July coming up. The disgrace of the Union going up in smoke. Every Law in the land broken. The bonfire of the vanities. What about democracy. They both have blood on their hands. Out dark spot out. Both of them should resign. Master criminals and liars.

    4. Free Scotland says:

      What a miserable old beggar!

    5. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Glove puppet PaddyBrit meets sock puppet AngloBrit?

      Twill be interesting to see how things pan out.

      My guess for what it’s worth? They’ll fcuk up things utterly between them and bring down the hale hoose o’ cairds which purports to be the UK – a gasoline meets accelerant kind of thing meets Brexit @ Burn Baby. Burn.

    6. Fred says:

      Superb! Lamh Dearg Aboo! Warm Yer Hole With Arlene’s Coal!

    7. starlaw says:

      Nice one Chris. sums up the situation Mays in a mess of her own making, there will be no satisfying the DUP they will always be back for more.

    8. Ken500 says:

      5% (very low), of migrants in the population is not the problem. The lying Tory/Unionists are the problem. They bombed the Middle East to bits for years causing migration in Europe. Germany has 20% of migrants and a much better economy. Along with most of the European countries. Westminster Unionists have ruined the world economy. They are at it again. The Tories will negotiate higher payment for less rights, more regulation and red tape. Damaging the economy. Scotland Indeprdent in the Ezu is the only solution. From the Westminster unionist conspiracy.

      Scotland have never been better run than by the (SNP) Scottish Gov.. They have done more for Scotland in five years than the Unionists did in over fifty. Scotland can continue to grow and under the SNP Gov. To grow and prosper. Independence in the EU is the way to go. Don’t let the phycho bastards get people down. Get out and fight for it. Those who can. The Tory/Unionists are mucking up the economy again. Killing people. Sanctioning and starving vulnerable people.

    9. manandboy says:

      I suspect Theresa doesn’t know the right handshake.

    10. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      Excellent,

      but ahould be six fingers.

    11. galamcennalath says:

      CHris Cairns is a world class political cartoonist. Spot on, again.

      Another general election, anyone?

    12. Ghillie says:

      That’s an ugly sight.

    13. donald anderson says:

      Why let Labour bombers aff the hook?

    14. Geoff Huijer says:

      Great!

      Can be reused with Ruth.

    15. Smallaxe says:

      Would you like your palm RED, Theresa?

      Well done Chris, thank you.

      LINKS: On the previous thread!

      Peace Always

    16. Stoker says:

      Chris, yer a genius!

      Not only do you produce brilliant political works of art but you have the uncanny ability to discretely reveal exclusive stories within those works of art. How long, do you think, before the BUM discovers that Arlene Foster gave Ruth Davidson up for adoption, eh?
      😉

    17. paul gerard mccormack says:

      so here i am sitting in bed with the orange lodge outside banging their drums and fifes.

      i am emigrating in a years time.

      All is dead here, save stupidity

    18. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macandroid says: 24 June, 2017 at 7:07 am:

      “What’s Arlene holding behind her back?”

      A Kalashnikov, perhaps?

    19. Richardinho says:

      The insane thing about the DUP is how they fanatically want to be part of Britain, yet they don’t want to accept British laws and social norms such as gay rights and womens’ reproductive rights. I personally think it’s time they were called out on their b.s.

    20. Cairns, sublime.

    21. Marie Clark says:

      Spot on Mr Cairns. Chapeau sir, chapeau.

    22. galamcennalath says:

      Democracy is beautiful in theory, in practice it is a fallacy – Benito Mussolini

      I still believe he was wrong, the Tories appear to be trying their damnest to prove him right.

    23. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      Herald comment in response to: “Kevin McKenna: Don’t fool yourself, Grenfell shows Scotland is as unequal as England”

      I’ve been saying the same for a while now: 10 years in power. The SNP are like Scottish Labour (SLab) with an independence referendum. Just like SLab they speak big about reforming society, social justice, being a party of the people.

      Has anyone ever tried to get help or answers from a SNP MSP or Scot Govt on an individual basis? Same auld formulaic answers, that tell you one thing only: we’re not interested.

      I even wrote to Alex Salmond when he was First Minister to complain about my complaint being mishandled by the Scot Govt civil service. I got an answer, not from AS, but from the civil servant I was complaining about!

      Did I ever get an answer to my original complaint? No.

      When it comes to doing anything in govt, they promise reform then listen more to the concerned voices of the ruling establishment, the powers that be, whether in big business, people with influence or from public services that don’t want to be made more transparent and more accountable.

      They “consult” then water down and or shelf any limited reforms they proposed in the first place.

      The results we can see for ourselves. 10 years the SNP have been in power, yet we have to wait till autumn of 2017 to hear the Scot Govts response to consultations on whether Housing Associations should be included in FOI legislation despite the likes of Wheatley Group / GHA being dependent on hundreds of millions of pounds of public money every year.

      Under SLab who created the GHA and the SNP who allowed that monster to grow into the Wheatley Group , a concerned resident of a GHA tower block is not entitled to an answer to a simple question, such as: What type of insulation and cladding is on my tower block?

      We have quango bosses on mega-salaries, while ordinary workers are facing pay cuts in real terms ( when inflation is compared to the pay rise).

      We still have private fee paying schools with charitable status. There’s nothing charitable about bright children being refused a place at these schools because their parents cannot afford the fees.

      The only great reforming policy the SNP has ever tried to implement is independence. They have less than a week to announce if that one is also going to be shelved too.

    24. Robert Peffers says:

      The DUP is still living in the 1690s.

    25. Brian Powell says:

      Colin Alexander

      That’s apart from everything the SNP did dot o improve and protect Scotland, and all the resources and policy making powers denied to them by the devolution settlement.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      Herald comment

      https://www.snp.org/record

      Would a fraction of that have been achieved under a Unionist Scottish Government? We had almost as long under Labour and the achievements then were bu99er all in comparison.

    27. Macart says:

      Neatly done Chris.

    28. Stoker says:

      Don’t panic, we’re all in safe hands! Here’s the gang in total awe of their mighty warrior leader, Yon Dim Ruth (aka; Weekend Wendy).
      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDEjw6lXsAAylHz.jpg

    29. heedtracker says:

      Good old Colonel Ruth. Wonder which army tory promoted Colonel Ruth to British army colonel rank and why? We are entering another phase of unionism in Scotland though.

    30. Socrates MacSporran says:

      paul grar mccormack @ 8.36am

      You’re lucky, I was awakened this morning, at 2am, by a loud and tuneless rendition of a: The Sash and Derry’s Walls medley as the neighbours came home.

      I suppose that’s the price of overnighting at my girl friend’s abode in Kilwinning.

    31. heedtracker says:

      How does Colonel Ruth’s Ulsterisation sit with this kind of NI lunacy? We’ll never know because no BBC Scotland gimp will ever ask the Colonel.

      http://archive.is/topAo

      Friday 23 June 1817 17.51 BST Last modified on Friday 23 June 1917 19.36 BST

      We are the invisible victims of the DUP’s anti-abortion hardliners | Elizabeth Nelson

      “The fight for equality isn’t just about what is attacked. It is also about what is ignored. As the Conservatives continue to struggle to strike a deal with the DUP to stay in power, MPs now ask if continuing to deny the rights of Northern Irish women to equal treatment is a price Britain should be willing to pay.

      This month Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, fought and won a court case on his right to charge Northern Irish women for abortions if they have them in England and Wales, claiming he was doing so out of “respect” for the Northern Irish assembly.

      Thus if a Northern Irish woman comes to London and requires an appendectomy, she is given one on the NHS free of charge; but if she needs an abortion, she has to pay – even though as a UK taxpayer she has already contributed to the costs of our health service.”

    32. Bob Mack says:

      Is it not strange how Arlene is totally oblivious to the fact she associates with loyalist paramilitary murderers and views them as defenders ,and yet she visualises the IRA only as murderers.

      In truth you can always try to defend your sides actions through one excuse or another, but ultimately you are approving of cold blooded murderers whether clothed in one flag or another.

      Everything about this woman is 17th Century. She is steeped in bigotry and loyalist sympathy. Here in Scotland we now have the lodge putting up their own selected “Tory” candidates for the purpose of “pushing forward the objectives of the Lodge organisation”. We are already being sectarianised by stealth.

    33. Breeks says:

      Scotland and Ireland. Two nations blighted and haggered by the long reach of British manipulation and subversion.

      What are our Unionists except wild Scots domesticated by 300 years of indoctrination and subjugation?

      What are their Unionists except wild Scots twisted by 300 years of indoctrination and subjugating?

      The puppet masters whisper “hey, remember now, you don’t want a referendum”, and the Scottish Unionists fire up the big bass drums and have a parade. No second referendum! No surrender! God Save the Queen, oh yes ma’am!

      Can’t you see Unionists? Can’t you see what they have done to us and our Nation? The Nation who stood against them. What is the reward you actually expect from your British controllers? Put it into words, write it down, and have someone you hold dear read the words back to you. All I see them doing is feeding your hate, pulling your strings, and poisoning the minds of your children with the same hate which poisoned you. Tell me friend. What exactly is it you see them doing?

      Scotland wants to govern itself. That’s it. Let’s not over complicate this. Do you object to the French governing themselves? Or the Russians governing Russia? Or the Chinese governing China? But for some reason England should govern Scotland, just as long as its called Britain and they don’t rub your Scottish nose in your subjugation too often, and bury our dead with full military honours.

      Understand something Mr Unionist, whether you’re a Scot or Irish. The reason you don’t think Scotland or Ireland should govern themselves comes directly from 300 year old blood soaked Field Manual of British Imperialism.

      Divide and conquer, and heads up big yin, YOU are the division the “British” Establishment created over 300 years ago expressly to conquer your country.

    34. John Moss says:

      Funny, brutal, brilliant!

    35. Dr Jim says:

      The Sash is one of Queenies favourite tunes and just recently played at the trooping of the colour

      What have the SNP ever done for us? Really?
      Let’s nail the FM to a cross while we whistle, bring back the Labour party (who caused all the shit we’re in) and it’ll all be lovely
      Except No it wont because after five years of their shit we’ll be straight back to Tory shit all over again, aren’t the disrupters lovely people

      It would serve Scotland right if the SNP picked up their case and walked off leaving us to the mercy of what we crave, Embittered Martyrdom and grievance with no purpose or direction, and you know what, Scotland would blame them for doing that too

      Somebody famous said you never had it so good, well Scotland has never had it so good with the SNP the trouble is they’re not perfect, so YES we should just get rid of them and blame them for that too

      I want Independence and I want it now but only on my terms and my terms alone or I wont vote for it and to hell with everything else, I’ll immediately and conveniently forget all the stuff the SNP has managed to do to further Scotlands interests (I wont do the list it would take a week to write)

      Nicola Sturgeon never came to my house once and blessed me personally so out witch out I don’t love you anymore and give me (these are not the droids you want) Corbyn who doesn’t even know where Scotland is and when he was brought here he got a nosebleed by being so far north and by the time he received his evening private champaign the temperature was completely wrong because Scotland is such a barbaric “Region” of Ahr UK

      Corbyn is only riding the crest of the Tories failure wave but by now the Tories already have a plan to crush him properly at the next election by offering pensioners free slaves a quadruple pension lock and personal Rickshaw pullers plus another fiver a week for cream buns, and Boom!! no more Corbyn

      But hey! at least we’ll be free of that terrible SNP!

    36. Ian McCubbin says:

      Woukd have been better with a cover track of come on Eileen lol liked the red hand.
      Takes edge of lol

    37. Proud Cybernat says:

      Oh, Chris. Ouch!

      Red hand. What colour are her knees?

    38. Calum McKay says:

      “Sometimes it’s hard not to despair”

      I think once our neighbours in England realise what they have signed up to, this will be a short lived and embarrassing relationship the tories will find hard to hide or live with!

      Marching season shortly, who will be the impartial arbiter?

    39. ClanDonald says:

      If anything proves that the establishment are hell-bent on reviving the divisions of sectarianism, it’s the news that the BBC One is to broadcast the orange festivities in Northern Ireland, live on the 12th July for the first time “to reach a wider audience.” Unbelievable. Imagine it was anti-jewish or anti-Islam march instead of just an anti-catholic one, there would be an international outcry. But these bigot get away with it with help from the state broadcasters.

      Wonder if this was part of the DUP’s demands? An Orange march, broadcast live by BBC, with commentary, probably in the faux-solemn style that Nicholas Witchell reserves for Royal Weddings and funerals? A dangerous development.

      http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/inothernews/15367797.Twelfth_of_July_Orange_walk_to_be_televised_live_on_BBC_One_in_Northern_Ireland/

    40. auld highlander says:

      Hilarious, but maybe she is hiding an RPG behind her back if they don’t broadcast the above mentioned walk.

    41. HandandShrimp says:

      ClanDonald

      Perhaps that is one of the sops to the DUP to get a deal.

      We live in strange times. I can’t see May or this Government surviving two years through to Brexit end. I doubt there will be an election this year but it might all come to a head next year if/when the negotiations falter. They certainly haven’t started well. May’s offer to EU citizens seems designed specifically to throw students that have studied here out before they can put down roots. A petty and mean spirited offer. A tone that I think they will maintain, whilst demanding we sing and stand for the national anthem at the start of every news broadcast. /\(oO)/\

      Putting Struth Harrison in uniform probably makes sense as she slowly morphs into Kim Il Un

    42. galamcennalath says:

      ” The Red Hand of Ulster (Irish: Lámh Dhearg Uladh) is an Irish symbol used in heraldry to denote the Irish province of Ulster. …. The symbol is rooted in Irish Gaelic culture and its origins are attributed to the mythical Irish figure Labraid Lámh Dhearg (Red Hand Labraid), of the Fenian Cycle of Irish mythology. “

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hand_of_Ulster

      Like so many other things now associated with Ulster loyalism it’s roots lie elsewhere.

      It’s a bit like the failure to understand the pan European politics being played out at the Battle of the Boyne. King James had the backing of Louis of France representing one side, while William was on the same side as the Pope who opposed Louis.

    43. Dan Huil says:

      It was never the “Irish Problem”. It’s always been the “British Problem”. A united Ireland is coming, alongside a Scotland with independence regained.

    44. Free Scotland says:

      Not a safe pair of hands in sight!

    45. cearc says:

      Pretty scary stuff, having the DUP in charge of the UK. Not good news for NI at all. In fact very bad news having the ‘impartial’ and ‘free of political interference’ BBC promoting marches as well.

      On a lighter note. A few very good cartoons here,

      http://www.politico.eu/interactive/eu-uk-brexit-negotiations-theresa-may-david-davis-emmanuel-macron-france-us-donald-trump-cartoon/

      I particularly liked the Joep Bertrams (NL) and Christo Komarnitski (Bulgaria) ones.

      …to see ourselves as others see us, etc.

      I don’t think that the hat the Queen wore has ever had such worldwide coverage before.

    46. heedtracker says:

      Dr Jim, you realise ofcourse that this is exactly what’s coming. At the end of this Holyrood parliament, there wont be an SNP government. At the next snap Westminster GE, there will be even less SNP MP’s. Just ask Donaldo Macwhatsherface, new head BBC Scotland gimp.

      Exact same tory creep show, fronted by the BBC is doing to Scottish democracy exactly the same as what the miners and Arthur Scargill got. Only difference today? its the complete red and blue tory freak show, bettertogether, to save their precious union.

      UKOK Empire is striking back but we still have 3 years. Lets not waste them.

    47. Capella says:

      And then they woke up and saw the Irish Govt and the other 26 in the EU together discussing borders:
      http://www.itv.com/news/utv/2017-06-23/irish-border-meeting-on-anniversary-of-brexit-vote/

      It comes as the Irish Government has declared it is demanding a “special status” for Northern Ireland after Brexit.

      Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney said an unprecedented “political solution” was needed to keep the status quo and an effectively invisible frontier.

      The call was a departure for the Irish Government.

      It has been welcomed by Sinn Féin, whose MEP Martina Anderson said: “Special status within the European Union would also give effect to the democratic wishes of the majority in the North who voted to remain, so Dublin should join us in making that case.”

    48. maureen says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      Under SLab who created the GHA and the SNP who allowed that monster to grow into the Wheatley Group , a concerned resident of a GHA tower block is not entitled to an answer to a simple question, such as: What type of insulation and cladding is on my tower block?

      I don’t agree with your comment that tenants are not being told what type of cladding is on their building. Here is a transcript of the type of cladding on my building and I didn’t need a FOI to get this information.

      All the over-cladding is made of the following materials;
      1. Insulation made of stone fivres which is non-flammable and is hard-up against the concrete wall. It is 125mm thick and is a rigid material;
      2. Solid facade sheets made of fibreglass reinforced polymer which is resistant to the spread of fire and hinders smoke development.
      3. Cavitiy barriers at each party floor and party wall, and around each window. These barriers enclose any fire so as to prevent the risk of it spreading from flat to flat, and to prevent spreading within the over-cladding.
      These cavity barriers are made of both the previous-mentioned stone fibre insulation (around the windows and at the party walls)and also intumenscent steel fire stop which, when it heats up, expands to block any fire

    49. Dan Huil says:

      Billy-no-mates Westminster.

    50. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @galamcennalath 2017 24 June 9.31am

      “Would a fraction of that have been achieved under a Unionist Scottish Government? We had almost as long under Labour and the achievements then were bu99er all in comparison?”

      Who knows? Maybe, maybe no.

      Practically everything proves my point: SNP: better at administrators of devolution than Scottish Labour.

      Reformists? Radical? Re-shaping and reforming Scotland to become ready for independence? Absolutely not.

      “Today Scotland has the highest pay anywhere in the UK outside of London and the South East.” Aye, fat cat executives on mega-salaries funded by the Scot Govt while ordinary workers struggle.

      Grants to help people buy houses? What’s that all about? We’ve helped people into homeownership through the Land and Buildings Transaction Tax, which has lifted 15,000 households out of tax compared to Stamp Duty in the rest of the UK Again, is that something to boast about?

      Cutting corporation tax and throwing money at Amazon like it’s confetti. A company whose employee contracts have been severely criticised.

      Land reform? It’s land, one of Scotland’s greatest assets, apart from it’s people and it’s maritime resources. The “reform” has changed what exactly?

    51. gus1940 says:

      Now that our beloved tank straddling Barrage Balloon/Blimp impersonation act has been installed in her honorable military post we can rejoice in using her proper name – Colonel Blimp.

    52. ClanDonald says:

      @gus1940: Nah, I prefer “Military Coo” to Colonel Blimp 😀

    53. maureen says:

      stone fibres*

    54. Capella says:

      From links on previous thread from Nana via Smallaxe – an excellent summary of EU BREXIT so far, with links to relevant articles. From Alyn Smith MEP:

      http://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_23rd_june_2017

    55. heedtracker says:

      Reformists? Radical? Re-shaping and reforming Scotland to become ready for independence? Absolutely not.”

      What was the Scottish independence referendum 2014 then? WoS does attract some right dickheads.

    56. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      My comment should have read: SNP wanted to cut corporation tax (it’s a reserved power) and they have been cutting rates for businesses.

      The SNP wanted to keep the top rate of tax exactly the same as the Tories’ budget.

      Under the SNP the inequalities have grown in Scotland as much as in England. The SNP have taken NO STEPS to end the huge disparity between executive pay and ordinary workers.

      Even the Scottish Parliament is a good example of overpaid “executives” not living in the real world of Austerity. Our FM and MSPs on huge cushy salaries while others face real-terms cuts in income.

    57. heedtracker says:

      Our FM and MSPs on huge cushy salaries while others face real-terms cuts in income.”

      Attaboy. Rock will be along shortly to rant and rage at armchair
      indy fans, or whatever it is he calls anyone who comments btl about Scotland.

      You’re a lovely bunch arent you Colin.

    58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 10:29,

      Your riposte to Shouty Colin the Nirvana Representative on Earth gave me a good laugh.

      Reminded me a little of the highlight of 2014, the greeting the massed ranks of Labour MPs received when they took their wee stroll through Glasgow City Centre. Clueless then, just as clueless now.

      Overshadowed for the moment though by the NI freak show. These people hid away in 2014 because they knew they were toxic for the Unionist cause. Now they are in full view, cheering on Brexit, remaining stoutly “British” while not being too keen on “British values”. Can’t see the upside for their kind of Union among ordinary folk from this new and very real “coalition of chaos”.

    59. HandandShrimp says:

      Colin

      No one is claiming that the SNP are the SWP. They are centre left like a lot of the more benign European parties. They do reform but it is slow and cautious. However, I think you are being a wee bit “glass half empty”. They are more competent than Labour were and inifitely preferable to the Liberals or the Conservatives.

      I do agree that land reform needs further work but that didn’t stop the elite squealing like stuck pigs over the last very modest set of reforms. “Mugabe land grab” they called it. A lot of politics is judged from the political perspective of the viewer. To someone very much to the left the SNP are a bit wishy washy. To someone on the right they are Trotsky resurrected.

    60. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Under the SNP the inequalities have grown in Scotland as much as in England. The SNP have taken NO STEPS to end the huge disparity between executive pay and ordinary workers.”

      Fucksake. Which powers do you think they have to do that? They don’t control minumum wage, tax credits or executive pay. Jesus.

      “The SNP wanted to keep the top rate of tax exactly the same as the Tories’ budget.”

      No, they support it being 50p across THE WHOLE UK, because otherwise it’s too easy for people in Scotland to dodge. And of course, even the current top rate is still far higher than it was for 99% of Labour’s last term in power.

    61. Dan Huil says:

      First things first: an end to the disgusting union with England. Then we can discus/rant/rage about left and right.

    62. jfngw says:

      @Colin Alexander

      Grief, what a lot of mince. Scotland is nowhere near as left wing as you seem to believe. How many MSP’s are there with such a persuasion, none I would hazard a guess.

    63. heedtracker says:

      A lot of politics is judged from the political perspective of the viewer. To someone very much to the left the SNP are a bit wishy washy. To someone on the right they are Trotsky resurrected.”

      True but this latest yoon dindong says,

      “Even the Scottish Parliament is a good example of overpaid “executives” not living in the real world of Austerity. Our FM and MSPs on huge cushy salaries while others face real-terms cuts in income.”

      So what powers does any Scots gov have to tax “overpaid “executives,” not living in the real world of Austerity” anyway?

      PAYE is as easily dodged by overpaid execs as something very easy to avoid what I cant think of a metaphor for. Maybe its like those big glass boxes art galleries and museums plonk at their entrances, asking for donations, with a few quid in coins and foreign notes, littered at the bottom?

      These yoon culture echo chambers of SNP bad, are too easy to walk into.

    64. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @maureen

      I hope tower blocks in Scotland do use fire resistant materials.
      Grenfell residents were also assured their cladding and insulation met all safety requirements. An assurance counts for nothing.

      With regard to the information you provide, it’s vague. The materials used are not specifically named.

      If you asked, they aren’t required to answer these questions:

      1. Insulation made of stone fibres which is non-flammable and is hard-up against the concrete wall. It is 125mm thick and is a rigid material;

      What’s the product/s called?

      What tests have been done? If the stone-fibre material is sandwiched between sheets of rigid material, can they show results of flammability tests for the whole sheet?

      2. Solid facade sheets made of fibreglass reinforced polymer which is resistant to the spread of fire and hinders smoke development.

      Again, what’s this product called? Flammability test results?

      Thus, unless detail is given it’s impossible to check the accuracy of assertions that these are safe materials for cladding.

    65. Terry says:

      These drawings are excellent. A picture paints a thousand words.

      Would be great to see them on billboards. I’m sure they’d convert voters.

    66. maureen says:

      Are you kidding me, vague? you really are a nit picker.
      The council and the fire inspectors were on site trying to burn the aforesaid materials and they didn’t burn.
      That to me is assurance enough to feel safe in my home.

      Scotland has different fire laws from England. It’s horrendous that a tragedy such as grenfell had to happen before action has been taken.

    67. maureen says:

      Vague? are you kidding me, you really are a nit-picker.
      The fire inspectors and site managers were trying to burn the aforementioned materials and they didn’t burn.
      That’s reassurance for me and and for everyone else who lives in this block

    68. Dan Huil says:

      THERESA May’s so far unsuccessful attempts to do a deal with the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) to prop up her minority Tory government could be challenged in the courts.

      “Ciaran McClean, a Green party candidate in Northern Ireland at the General Election, has begun the process by serving a letter on the UK Government claiming any deal bet-ween it and the DUP would breach of the Good Friday Agreement.

      He claims a confidence and supply arrangement between the two parties would go against the UK Government’s promise in the 1998 agreement to exercise power in Northern Ireland “with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions”.”

      Andrew Learmouth

    69. Smallaxe says:

      COLIN ALEXANDER!

      http://news.aberdeencity.gov.uk/faqs-aberdeen-city-council-multi-storey-properties/

      ACC, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS) colleagues and the Scottish Government will continue to work closely throughout the investigation into the Grenfell Tower fire, and we shall continue to review multi-storey block fire safety on an ongoing basis.

      Anyone wanting a free Fire Service home fire safety visit can phone 0800 0731 999.

      Gies Peace, Always

    70. stewartb says:

      I see some ante-SNP/SG contributors here are becoming exponents of the btl equivalent of the ‘Gish Gallop’.

      With acknowledgement to the online ‘Urban Dictionary’ for this colourful definition of the term:

      “Named for the debate tactic created by creationist shill Duane Gish, a Gish Gallop involves spewing so much bullshit in such a short span that your opponent can’t address let alone counter all of it. To make matters worse a Gish Gallop will often have one or more ‘talking points’ that has a tiny core of truth to it, making the person rebutting it spend even more time debunking it in order to explain that, yes, it’s not totally false but the Galloper is distorting/misusing/misstating the actual situation.”

      The dictionary definition adds:

      “With the slimier users of the Gish Gallop, like Gish himself, its a near certainty that the points are chosen not just because the Galloper knows that they’re bullshit, but because the Galloper is deliberately trying to shovel as much bullshit into as small a space as possible in order to overwhelm his opponent with sheer volume and bamboozle any audience members with a facade of scholarly acumen and factual knowledge.”

      With this in mind, ever recall the Gish Gallop technique used in TV debates in recent years by e.g. Ruth Davidson and Jim Murphy? I never thought of it as a technique for posting on Wings – but I’m always learning.

    71. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @heedtracker

      The Scot Govt fund all the Scottish quangos and public services. All that is devolved. What was to stop them from putting a wage cap or pay differential cap on publically funded salaries?

      He who holds the purse strings, holds the power. For devolved powers, that’s the Scot Govt.

      Wheatley Group CE, Martin Armstrong is paid more than the First Minister.

      From Herald in 2014:

      “Figures published by industry publication Inside Housing reveal that, after the increase, he was paid a basic salary of £210,346, with an extra £5,348 as a car allowance. A further £40,596 was paid by his employer over the course of the year in pension contributions.”

      Are SNPers gonnae blame the Tories and Unionists for injustices as this?

      It’s the Scot Govt that oversee housing associations and fund Wheatley Group.

      Cannae blame the Unionists. You can blame the Tories though, the ones in the SNP that pay for such social injustice.

    72. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      24 June, 2017 at 11:29 am
      “From links on previous thread from Nana via Smallaxe – an excellent summary of EU BREXIT so far, with links to relevant articles. From Alyn Smith MEP:….”

      Excellent summary but far from excellent response. We’re all angry about the Tories squandering our rights, memberships and reputations, but what are we physically doing about it? Alyn Smith pretty much confirms we are outside the negotiations keeking through the keyhole to see what’s going on. Why is Europe being complicit in our exclusion?

      I thought Brexit unfolding as economic suicide was only a part of our Indy strategy, but it seems from events this is our complete Indy strategy. We’re going to be chirping away out side the window for the next 18 months then hope to swoop in at the death with a Get Out Of Brexit Free card which has Independence printed on the back in small print.

      It’s like the media. A thoroughly terrible situation which we do nothing to correct, we shirk from addressing at all, but trust that stoicism in our adversity will see us through.

      Why do I get the horrible feeling our “lines in the sand” about Brexit will only be visible in the rear view mirror?

      I’m biting my tongue here, but I want to see a much more robust defence of our European rights and membership. Now is not the time to be enigmatic and reserved, get the tackity boots on and kick in the doors whenever there is even a possibility there are issues affecting Scotland being discussed in abstentia. What do we have in our Government? I’m coming over all Winston Churchill. “I had hoped that we were hurling a wildcat onto the shore, but all we got was a stranded whale”.

      Come on Nicola. We need more Wildcat, a bit less whale. We are a sovereign government in waiting bound by an obsolete Treaty which subverts our sovereignty in order to suppress our dissent. There is no chapter of the British exit from Europe from which Scotland’s sovereignty should be excluded.

      We need more, much more, of everything. More presence. More anger. More obduracy. More intransigence. More menace. Brexit ends with Scotland NOT coming out of Europe. That’s the deal. Do not sell us out. Think wildcat. Fit! fit! mmmMEOW!

    73. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      The only real difference between the SNP and SLab nowadays is that Labour promise: “Jam tomorrow”.

      The SNP promise: “a jeely piece the morra, but first we need to vote for independence”.

      I think I’ve made my point.

      Let’s see in the next week if the SNP are even offering a chance to vote for independence, or will it be another good intention that comes to nowt under the SNP?

    74. Dr Jim says:

      We thought the young might save us
      We thought the young might have educated themselves better
      We thought the young would get the point

      Turns out they’re just as thick as their grandparents and they’ve made matters worse, and even worse than that they indignantly wont take the blame for it, just like their grandparents

      It’s like that Tomato crushing thing they have on the continent where everybody gets hit by Tomatoes, even if you don’t go you know a Tomato is going to get you

    75. heedtracker says:

      If you say so Colin.

      Scottish public sector is rank with greedy useless troughers and faith in this sector is hard to find sometimes. It does matter though, trusting in the various public and private sectors but if you want change, what’s a rad way to go about it Colin?

      Sure, you want the SNP out, in Holyrood and Westminster and it does like they’ve had their chips, BBC Scotland will indeed get them out.

      But Colin, the UK region called Scotland’s been the SLabour birth right and fiefdom for over 70 years now, its hardly going to change much in or by a weak Holyrood with much the same powers as a big council is it?

      Good luck with all your unionist SNP bad stuff btl WoS though Colin.

      Its refreshing to see an honest hard core unionist bashing away at us, making your case for NO, NO forever, UKOK all the way.

      What party do you vote for Colin, UKIPer? 😀

    76. Macart says:

      What the SNP have achieved in ten years with one metaphorical hand tied behind its back, is quite remarkable. They’re not the finished deal for many. They’re either not radical enough, or they’re not business minded enough, or they’re not hip n’ happenin’ enough.

      I reckon the breadth of their church and appeal is their greatest strength. That they aren’t polarized to one extreme belief system or the other. Seems to me it makes them more representative. Also seems to me that people being yanked from one extreme to the other is pretty much why we’re enjoying the current political, societal and economic shitstorm. If people want better, or want them to be better, then it’s up to them to make those improvements. Either to the party of their choice, or by joining the SNP and working for it.

      Until then… they’re the best we have at the worst time in our political and constitutional post war history. Trusting ANY other political party with guardianship of our rights at this time is simply not an option.

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/the-snps-achievements/

      If people think austerity UK is a pretty dire place, they really don’t wish to encounter Brexit UK, but encounter it they will. It is going to hit. There is no avoiding it. There is only surviving it. That future was made certain the second Ms May’s letter was received by the EU in March.

      People are going to suffer. Businesses will fall. Families will go without. People being people though? A great many won’t believe it till it hits them where they live. Right in their own livingroom. At that point the Scottish electorate will have a small window of opportunity.

      We better hope and pray there are still gatekeepers in Holyrood. We better hope and pray that we haven’t been stupid enough to cripple the one thing that can give us an out, or that we’ve given away our right to choose along with everything else we hold dear because others sold us on a political unity that never was.

      That option is still there for the asking because a lot of people gave an awful lot of themselves to keep it there. We need more people to make it happen. Under the current appalling stress being deliberately placed on your government (the one in Holyrood), they can’t guarantee to hold that door open forever.

      No one can or will force you. You have to want it.

      At this point, I wouldn’t take too long over making a choice. You may have that removed for you in the near future too.

    77. Dan Huil says:

      Of course britnats will always try to pass the blame onto the Scottish government. It’s old hat by now but they still chunter away as Westminster continues to give crumbs to Scotland whilst britnats in Scotland demand 5 course dinners. It might give some succour to desperate britnats but that’s all it’s doing. Britnat desperation seems to be on the increase; there can only be one reason for that: they’re feart their so-called united kingdom is about to fall apart.

    78. David says:

      How on earth could any party possibly go into a partnership with a party that does not accept same sex marriage and the rights of a woman to make her own decisions about her own body
      I don’t agree with same sex marriage, marriage is between a man and a woman, why did the powers that be accept the term marriage lots of gay people take that view as well and will not accept it, ofc, you will not hear much about that huge part of our population’s viewpoint, not politically correct you see !
      And i certainly do not agree with using abortion as a means of contraception, we have the morning after pill for a start, so there is no excuse for letting it go that far
      I go with the law of the land, but i could never see any mainstream religion accepting abortion as a contraception or two men or two women being able to marry in their church, we have just had the anglicans in britain fracturing their own religious beliefs again, where will all this so called political correctness end, all they do is hurt and split their own congregations when all they have to do is not accept it in their church buildings, but ofc their leaders have an attitude like the tories, we have the power and we know what’s good for you, and if you don’t like it, so what

    79. Valerie says:

      @Chris, great toon.

      @Colin Alexander

      Stop spewing such obvious shit. Up your game, if you’re gonna troll on here.

      The Wheatley Group is NOT funded by Scotgov, and Housing Associations are not in any way run or involved with Scotgov.

    80. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @heedtracker

      What should people sit up and take notice is that I am not a Unionist.

      I campaigned for and voted YES in 2014.
      I have voted SNP most of my adult life.
      I was an SNP member 2015/16.

      I voted SNP at the Council election and this GE – well, I voted for the best candidate, who happened to be the SNP MP I campaigned for in 2015.

      If someone like me is saying this, I think I’m expressing how many (ex or stay at home ) former SNP voters feel about the the SNP.

      The huge drop in votes for the SNP speak for themselves.

      SLab were in denial when voters became disillusioned with them.

      Is the SNP listening any better?

    81. heedtracker says:

      “I don’t agree with same sex marriage, marriage is between a man and a woman, why did the powers that be accept the term marriage lots of gay people take that view as well and will not accept it, ofc, you will not hear much about that huge part of our population’s viewpoint, not politically correct you see !”

      Other than whatever it is that goes on between your ears, why exactly should two adults not get married?

      I am offended by the complete and utter bollox that is religion but if its what people want to do, that’s their choice, freedom to choose, if you will. What I object to completely is same people thinking their religion some how gives them the power to dictate how people should live.

      When it comes to living by our laws or on the instruction of old man with a big beard in toga up in the clouds, I’ll take the former everytime, thanks.

    82. Effijy says:

      Seen a Daisly article in the Daily Fascist where
      He blames Troublesome Middle Class support
      For Corbyn on the fact that they don’t buy newspapers?

      He, and his column, and his warped views explain why they no longer buy!

      Thinking about the ever increasing Westminster debt, it looks like the EU divorce
      Settlement alone will be 60 £Billion, the cancelled N.I increase for self-employed another
      £2 Billion, Dementia Tax cancellation £2 Billion, Pension Triple lock being retained in another
      U Turn- £2 Billion, and now we a £2 Billion Back Red-Hander to the DUP will see the UK accelerate
      Them Toward an £2 Trillion Debt.

      £2,000,000,000,000 will not be wiped out in anyone’s lifetime.
      Thank goodness the richest are still being given tax breaks.

    83. Legerwood says:

      COLIN ALEXANDER says:
      24 June, 2017 at 11:33 am

      “”Even the Scottish Parliament is a good example of overpaid “executives” not living in the real world of Austerity. Our FM and MSPs on huge cushy salaries while others face real-terms cuts in income.””

      In the interests of accuracy please note: Ministers in the Scottish Government, including the FM, have not taken any pay rise since 2008.

      Furthermore, MSPs voted to sever the link between their salaries and those of MPs which meant in 2015 when MPs got their 11% pay rise and MSPs should have got 9%, they took a 0.9% pay rise. That was the year the UK Government refused to pay the nurses their pay award of 1%. The Scottish Government paid the nurses in Scotland their 1% and have done so every year since.

      While they may make representations to the UK Government to abolish the 1% cap on public sector pay they do not have the powers, or money, to do so unilaterally.

      The Scottish Government has also taken steps to ensure the Living Wage is paid by more companies etc

      https://news.gov.scot/news/living-wage-set-at-gbp-845

    84. IAB says:

      Great cartoon – a picture paints a thousand words.

    85. heedtracker says:

      COLIN ALEXANDER says:
      24 June, 2017 at 12:47 pm
      @heedtracker

      What should people sit up and take notice is that I am not a Unionist.

      As I said Colin, good luck with all your SNP bad stuff and by 2021, May 8, you lot should be back in power in your Scotland region again, Sturgeon on the back benches, SNP back to single digit Westminster MP’s, precious union saved, BBC Scotland trough deeper and tastier than ever.

      Why youre playing these silly “I’m an SNP voting YESer, but the SNP are shite, indy is already failed” games, is your choice.

      Most YESers, let alone WoS readers are more than used to your style of yoonster bullshit Colin but again, good luck with it all.

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      I reckon that social psychologist, psychoanalyst, sociologist, humanistic philosopher, and democratic socialist, Erich Seligmann Fromm, would complement the artistry involved in depicting the process of “Assimilation” (pictured above).

      From the perspective of this particular weirdo, it depicts all four non-productive characteristic orientations associated with the non-productive individual. How very productive of the artist, he’ll no doubt need a holiday to recover. 🙂

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fromm

    87. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent image there Chris, tells us we need to know and we all know just how much of a mess the tories are making. It stinks to high heaven.

      Aghast that the state run BBC are going to actually televise an orange march! Ffs, that is the absolute pits, anyone subscribing to this state controlled pap needs their head examined! Well, except peeps like Rev Stu, who have to keep up with the drivel being piped into living rooms, day in day out, 24/7, for journalistic purposes.

      Re;stewartb@12.10

      Wow thanks for that, a good summary of sec services techniques. Working on a weekend as well, shame for them aye. Where is ‘sensible dave’, gone but not gone.

      I have a book sitting in front if me, Techniques of Persuasion, from propoganda to brainwashing’. Pelican books, by J.A.C.Brown,1963. Only ever have time to dip into it. Might be available online to buy, for anyone interested. No doubt the techniques he talks about are still used today.

      Can’t remember who said in a comment today, (thanks) that the DUP want to be in the UK, yet be immune to our laws and rules. I don’t think they have a leg to stand on, surely the DUP being in coalition in their so called UK would be a constitutional crisis! Cake and eat it?

    88. Gary45% says:

      One of your best Chris, another classic.
      Nice one.

    89. Smallaxe says:

      Macart says:

      “If people want better, or want them to be better, then it’s up to them to make those improvements. Either to the party of their choice, or by joining the SNP and working for it.

      Until then… they’re the best we have at the worst time in our political and constitutional post war history. Trusting ANY other political party with guardianship of our rights at this time is simply not an option.”

      What my friend Macart has stated above goes to the heart of the matter. The SNP is governing the whole of Scotland not just it’s members or independence supporters, they are doing the best that can be done under the circumstances that prevail at this time.

      The SNP is a party that works from the bottom up, Mr Peffers has explained this numerous times, much better than I could hope to do, until a majority of the electorate is willing to join the party and vote for independence then good governance is really all that they are democratically able to achieve.

      Once we gain independence, then everyone can vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party if they so desire but until then the SNP is our only hope of ever being independent so get behind them and help make our nation the proud and dignified home that it can and should be for all of us.

      Peace Always

    90. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      My criticism of the SNP has been harsh.

      However, it is NOT pro-Unionist. It is meant as constructive criticism.

      There is a clear trend of support dropping for the SNP. The indyref mandate only scraped through this time at Holyrood, thanks to the Scottish Green Party.

      Clearly, the SNP have to have policies and practices that motivate people to vote for them rather than other parties – or people not seeing sufficient reason to bother voting at all.

      They are going backward, not forward. Sorry if the truth hurts. But SLab type denials and mutual congratulations and backslapping at poor results does not help us win independence.

    91. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Well said, Smallaxe.

      There are two beliefs that we have to examine and perhaps make adaptions to our strategy after we have done that.

      1. The SNP will govern devolved Scotland well and will get great credit for doing so.This will lead us to independence
      Boing!
      The SNP will never get any credit no matter how well it runs Scotland with its limited devolved power. The media will see to that. In fact it will get attacked incessantly as the media trawls our hospitals for a shortage of toilet paper in hospital toilets and other devastating shortcomings.
      (And another thought if devolved government works so well why would we need independence)

      2. The SNP will get great credit for its marvelous contribution to the affairs of the Westminster Parliament.
      Boing!
      The incisive and constructive participation of the huge SNP group in London was virtually ignored. The media saw to that.
      (they might have been better doing a Sinn Fein and working for independence in their constituencies).

      We will only get to independence by painting a picture of the better country we can become as we get control of our huge assets that many of our people are deceived about and highlight the collapsing state we need to leave.
      This is not very difficult if we all play a part.

    92. HandandShrimp says:

      Seen a Daisly article in the Daily Fascist where
      He blames Troublesome Middle Class support
      For Corbyn on the fact that they don’t buy newspapers?

      Effijy

      Not seen that but it hilarious if that is the gist of his argument. Who the fuck made partisan journalists the guardians of democracy? The middle classes that might be persuaded to vote for Corbyn wouldn’t touch rags like the Mail or the Express with a barge pole. It is ghastly reactionary, racist pish that doesn’t deserve to be called news.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      As far as I am concerned, without independence there is no hope whatsoever of change. The kind of country and society I want to live in, will never happen.

      The SNP, nor anyone else, can not make significant changes within the current devolved framework. It’s designed to be like that.

      One thing is certain – without the SNP independence will never happen.

      And one thing is highly likely – if we don’t win a referendum in next few years, it could be decades before we get another chance, if ever.

      As far as I am concerned everything fits into that framework.

    94. jfngw says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      On your second point before the election I recall reading/seeing the SNP attendance at WM was being derided in the press, and in an interview with Nicola Sturgeon. The inference is they may turn up but they are ineffectual as they don’t have a majority.

      It is a indictment of WM that 95% of Scottish MP’s can be so easily ignored. They only have relevance, it would seem, if voting for the party in government. Rarely has the case for independence been better made.

      Anyway now that the Scottish Tories actually hold the balance of power in WM lets see what they can achieve for Scotland. Little I would expect as the Scottish Secretary doesn’t even believe Scotland exists as a country.

    95. gus1940 says:

      Dave McE H@1.45

      Re the ‘better country’referred to in final para is there somebody out there, perhaps even an offshoot of Wings, who could construct a site to which people can submit proposals for making Scotland a better place with the facility for people to comment on, amend and enhance the original submission.

      I would envision the submissions remaining in place until such time as they have been finally knocked into shape and agreed on at which point the proposal would be submitted to The Scottish Government.

      As regards each original proposal I would envisage that the original proposer would remain in charge of that text and be the only one allowed to make changes as a result of comments made – with the comments remaining in place as on Wings items. if anybody commenting on a specific proposal disagreed with the proposal sufficiently or took exception to having their comment(s) rejected by the original author they could go ahead and submit their own proposal on the same subject.

      What I would like to see is ideas put forward and discussed
      that if implemented would make an Independent Scotland appealing to those currently sitting on the fence.

    96. Breeks says:

      Just weeks before that General Election, it seemed a forgone conclusion that the Tories were going to sweep to victory, and Jeremy Corby was the unelectable Worzal Gummidge of British politics. Roll on a few weeks, May has lost all authority, integrity and presence, and great things are expected of Corbyn.

      Now you can argue the primary cause for that reversal of fortune was May’s thoroughly disastrous strategy, or Corbyns unorthodox but patently better strategy, but the truth is, it was the media which played a massive part in changing people’s perceptions.

      We are unlikely to win Independence if we expect Unionism to run out of grievances against it. But what will bring about a massive and positive swing across a broad section of society is the progress and uplifting arguments in favour of Independence being broadcast view some form of mainstream medium.

      We must get the battle moved away from the SNP’s domestic government, and get it where is belongs, the failures of Westminster, the absurdities of Westminster government, the democratic deficit. The reasons why Scotland does not want to be governed by Westminster, augmented by the reasons why an Independent government would benefit all.

      I really enjoy those Phantom Power films. They are excellent. But the Unionist propagandists put together three or four coordinated SNPbad presentations every news broadcast, media debate and tangential feature about Scotland.

      People say it’s miraculous what the SNP has managed to achieve, and it is. But that’s the point you’re missing. The problem is not with the SNP, the problem is with the reliable and inexhaustible supply of miracles which spread the word of what they are doing.

      Get Scotland Broadcasting. How many times can I say it? Get fly, get sly, get inventive, get creative, get help, get streetwise, but GET SCOTLAND BROADCASTING. Find a way. The life of your country may depend upon it.

      Many moons ago, one of the Architectural designs for the Holyrood parliament building featured a massive TV screen. Was that Prophetic or what? A Scottish Parliament with capacity to broadcast…

    97. stu mac says:

      @Richardinho says:
      24 June, 2017 at 8:58 am
      ===================

      There was an English Tory politician (of all parties! Don’t recall the name) who was active during the 70s and 80s who refused to call the Loyalists, Loyalists. Instead he called them dis-Loyalists – recognising that their Loyalty was mainly one-way. They wanted to be in the UK back then because it gave them a power behind them to enforce their bigotry in their own province. In fact the start of the troubles was due to their refusal to accept that Catholics should have the same basic rights as other UK citizens.

    98. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Colin Alexander

      Keep it up lad. Lovin’ yer work so I am. Your every btl word on here is, to me and I’m sure thousands like me, one more twisted, bitter little pill that replenishes my resolve to see you BritNat buffoons well and truly fucked in IndyRef2.

      Keep it up lad. Yer working a treat.

      LMBHAO

    99. Chick McGregor says:

      Colin Alexander

      Did you expend as much energy in supporting the SNP on line when you were a member as you have done in telling us why you no longer are?

    100. Chick McGregor says:

      May:
      “Alright, ALRIGHT!, from this day forward a ‘Full English Breakfast’ will be return to being called an ‘Ulster Fry’.

    101. Dr Jim says:

      The SNP are stuck with the same thing that Rangers and Celtic are stuck with, the fans expect them to win every game, and by a substantial margin or they go off in the huff,(the newer fans that is)

      Well I have to suggest just like those football teams, the SNP can’t score in every game and especially when the other team is the United Kingdom of England and Press association TV select supplying the referees and linesmen

      The UK GUV has just been fined £642 million by the EU for not paying the English farmers on time yet we don’t hear anyone calling for Mrs Mays head over it but in Scotland the Yoons scream as loud as they can even though the small percentage of farmers affected don’t lose out on one penny because of interest free loans
      The UK economic projection figures are out by 22% nobody says a dickie bird yet in Scotland they are out by 1% and the Yoons are screaming again

      23 Scottish “journalists” complained about not getting their FOI requests answered quickly enough and squealed for the Tories and Labour to call for a debate on the subject which they duly did as they were told because as we know in Scotland the press think they run the country and if the SNP don’t give them the interviews the press want they have meetings with the YOON party to complain about it
      This does not happen in the Kingdom of Englandshire and it never reaches any newspapers because it’s just not considered important enough plus the papers are on the side of the government anyway

      In Scotland we don’t and wont have that luxury as long as the enemies of the state, the SNP are in charge

      Trolls will always do what they do they can’t help themselves, in their tiny minds they hope that somehow their Twattish interventions will make everybody change their minds about being a normal country like the rest of the world and just keep submitting to the will and desires of England who as I’ve said many times before could decide to vote for a monkey on a stick and we’d have to go along with it because the big country would tell us that was democratic because we’re smaller

      The only thing that England respects is power, nothing else, no diplomacy or reason will ever prevail with England because they are such liars themselves, before ever attempting negotiations they insult and belittle the opposition and then pretend to the electorate it was the other guys fault, they’re doing it now with the EU
      They never change! They’re incapable of it!

      What was the last event in Scotland to scare the shit out of Westminster, no, not the referendum that was the second last, it was after the referendum when one hundred thousand people joined the SNP
      So for those who want to suggest policy or strategy, join the party because we’re not the Labour party or the Tories the SNP are a completely democratic party driven by the members so what you end up with is what you asked for if there’s support from the rest of the members of course

      Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t sit in an office making policy up as she goes along it’s people like me and everybody else in the party putting forward our thinking and the clever clogs who formulate the ideas put it into practice
      But like anything it’s not 100% percent flawless

    102. Petra says:

      Another brilliant cartoon Chris, once again hitting the nail squarely on the head.

      ……………………….

      @ Breeks says at 2:46 pm …. ”Many moons ago, one of the Architectural designs for the Holyrood parliament building featured a massive TV screen. Was that Prophetic or what? A Scottish Parliament with capacity to broadcast…”

      Now that would be absolutely brilliant Breeks but one wonders how long it would take for the Unionists to pull the plug on it to block the SNP from highlighting their many achievements, Scotland’s manifold resources / assets and exposing the (their) Unionist lies.

      …………………….

      We’ve heard that the Diabolical Unionists Personified are demanding £2 billion in ransom money, but what else is on the cards and will we, Joe Public – tax-payers, actually get to see a list of their demands and rewards? Or will new buildings / infrastructure suddenly appear all over NIreland as if by magic and institutions they oppose just disappear?

      It goes without saying that they’ll demand that the Tories ”Now is not the time” stance lasts in perpetuity; that is as long as they rule the roost and they’ll no doubt continue to use their uniquely sinister position to accumulate ‘dark money’ and ‘dark people’ to oppose Independence in every possible way.

      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/219147/Northern-Ireland-Assembly-political-parties-2017.pdf

      I also heard the Parade Commission being mentioned on a video that Nana posted recently (can’t find it now!). The guy on the video stated that the OO would be making demands of the DUP (one and the same!) to get the Parade Commission ‘decommisioned’ now that they hold such power over the Westminster Government. Just like their mainland cronies, the Tories, they’ll go too far and see themselves up sh*t creek without a paddle.

      Sein Fein now control all constituencies across the border and Nationalist / Republican supporters in NIreland combined with supporters of more ‘neutral’ parties seem to be more ‘popular’ than Unionist. If this is correct it’s only a matter of time before we see a reunified Ireland. Maybe someone from NIreland will correct me if I’m wrong, such as Joannie?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parades_Commission

      Take a look at this site and the list of forthcoming parades. How the Roman Catholics in NIreland and other peace loving people, of any other religion or none, must detest this crowd. What a way to live, if you can call it that.

      http://www.paradescommission.org/

    103. ben madigan says:

      great cartoon Chris – really on the mark!!

      @ whoever mentioned that “BBC One is to broadcast the orange festivities in Northern Ireland, live on the 12th July for the first time “to reach a wider audience.”

      Don’t know why it is a surprise. the BBC and UTV have always broadcast the orange 12th march in belfast with snippets from elsewhere in “ar wee pravince”.

      I don’t know if the programmes were limited to NI viewers but this year they are going nationwide?

      Anyway, all non-Orange Order supporters who can afford it book their annual holiday, a weekend away, a day trip to coincide with the 12th July. The others, unless living in rather upper-class areas, are sort of locked into their homes.

      here’s what NI’s obsession with bowing down to the Orange costs and what some tourists thought of the 12th in belfast a couple of years ago

      i imagine many of the observations would also apply to orange marches in Scotland, though Scotland on the whole, seems to bow down less to our so-called grand masters

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/northern-ireland-how-much-do-your-obsessions-cost/

    104. galamcennalath says:

      Chick McGregor says:

      ‘Ulster Fry’

      Jeez, that takes me back. Something I haven’t heard of for half a century!

      When I was a kid in Ayrshire the butchers sold it. Sold in slices like black or white pudding, maybe thinner. Meaty, some sort of sausage. My mother gave us it occasionally. From memory it tasted pretty good, though heaven knows what was actually in it!

      I probably wouldn’t like it now!

    105. galamcennalath says:

      @ Chick McGregor

      https://patbloodandpartners.com/products/400g-sliced-ulster-fry

      I don’t remember it looking like Spam 🙂

    106. heedtracker says:

      The Guardian makes the old skin crawl with their faux ghastly hypocrisy, week afore indy ref1. Arent the OO lovely, Graun readers?

      “Orange Order anti-independence march a ‘show of pro-union strength’

      Parade of 15,000 unionists passes through Edinburgh without serious incident, hoping to make decisive contribution to next week’s referendum result

      http://archive.is/6S0hH

      And now, very nice reportage Graun style, why not OO march past Catholics, simper Graun creeps.

      http://archive.is/9XTAG

      “Of the DUP’s 10 MPs, seven are members of the Orange or independent marching orders. The order’s headquarters in Belfast declined to comment about the Portadown lodge’s plea, but the issue is expected to be raised at a meeting on Wednesday.”

      In the centre of Portadown, Ruth Culverston, from nearby Moira, welcomed the prospect of walking the Orange Order route back into the town along the Garvaghy Road. “I voted DUP,” she said. “I used to follow the parade. My parents and brothers always used to go on the Drumcree parade. That would be the main thing to ask for. It was 20 years ago they last went down the road. It’s only one day a year. Why not?”

      Etc.

      Perfidious Albion doesn’t come close to our Imperial master baiters today.

    107. Macart says:

      @Smallaxe 1.20pm

      And that’s it in a nutshell Smallaxe. They govern for ALL of Scotland’s population, not just independence support. THAT is what makes them fit for the office. THAT is the ‘day job’.

      They’re not just single issue, or polarized ideology. They’re not ever going to be left enough or right enough, yet they must recognise those elements in our society. They won’t take radical leaps either and will seek to walk with or persuade rather than push or manipulate. They are, and have been for some time, gradualist in their approach. Many small steps to make one big difference.

      So long as they stick with that, I can live with the fact they’re not doing what I’d like them to do on a daily basis. 😀

      I get it! It’s frustrating as hell for members of the public with a single aim or desire, but then we don’t have to govern a population and we aren’t facing the media and party political shitstorm of opposition that the Scottish government are 24/7. Bad as it is for independence support (and there are days when it’s really bad), we catch only the periphery of what the SG must face hourly. How many bills or legislation frustrated or watered down? How many wasted releases on successes which never see the light of day because the media drop a curtain on them or twist their achievements till they turn to ash in the public’s view?

      If you didn’t go to the SG official site, or sites like this, you’d barely know they exist at all, or that they’d achieved anything.

      Regardless, I need them to do only one thing as far as I’m concerned. Hold that door open for as long as possible and protect the Scottish electorate’s right to choose.

      Everything else they manage to achieve is a bonus.

    108. jfngw says:

      Watching the debate on FOI at Holyrood being rerun today on BBC Parliament. Burst out laughing when Tavish Scott suggested an independent enquiry led by someone like Tom Gordon, you can’t get more neutral than that can you! He may as well have suggested Christine Jardine or Ruth Davidson as the independent chair.

    109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 14:13,

      The SNP presence at WM has always been a media poisoned chalice. At the election before last, the party was derided by the English Tories as the “tail wagging the dog”, something that just can’t be allowed in EVELand. Never mind all that Broonite “leaders not leavers” pish.

      When things didn’t look so evenly-balanced this last time (oh, the irony of it!), the media was packed wall-to-wall with Red-Blue-Orange chancers once again in unison earnestly assuring us that voting SNP for WM was a “wasted vote”.

      (As if it did the LibDems a whole lot of good, coming in a measly fourth again. What a huge consolation for them it must be that Jo Swinson managed to claw her ambitious way back into her old berth again.)

      And though it’s impolitic for any SNP rep to point it out, it doesn’t seem to have occurred to the legion of dim-witted PSB broadcasters that suggesting that the SNP are “powerless” in WM is actually the best possible justification for getting the hell out of that corroded anachronism. And the sooner the better.

    110. Robert Peffers says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER says: 24 June, 2017 at 11:52 am

      “I hope tower blocks in Scotland do use fire resistant materials.
      Grenfell residents were also assured their cladding and insulation met all safety requirements. An assurance counts for nothing.”

      Awa back, Colin, and tell your Westminster Unionist bosses that the Scottish Fire Prevention Regulations and the Scottish Building Standards are far superior to their Kingdom of England counterparts. That’s all you and they need to know.

      We do not need such anti-SNP agents of the Union, Colin, we have enough ot them already.

    111. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – what are we physically doing about it?
      The SNP 2016 manifesto called for a referendum if Scotland was removed from the EU against our will. They won the election thus endorsing the policy.

      On June 23rd 2016, the UK was divided on leaving the EU with England and Wales voting to leave and Scotland and Northern Ireland voting to remain. This triggered the manifesto clause on holding a referendum.

      The SNP and Greens then won a vote in Holyrood giving notice to Westminster that a referendum would follow the completion of the BREXIT negotiations. The end date is already set for October 2018 – March 2019.
      So Indyref2 is currently scheduled for October 2018 – March 2019.

      Meantime, we are still in the EU.

      So what we need to do is counteract the flood of misinformation and propaganda flowing out of Westminster and their media.
      Nicola has also demanded a seat at the negotiating table. Mike Russell wants the Joint Ministerial Committee reconvened. We can’t rule out another election soon. Nor have we any idea what might be discussed behind closed doors. The EU has said they will be transparent. Westminster not.

      I would describe this as a preparation period. We need to develop policy on how independent Scotland will operate. We need to circulate information correcting the media lies.
      That’s what WoS and other indy websites are doing IMO.
      What more do you suggest?

    112. Wonder if COLIN ALEXANDER, sensibledave and maybe a few other names on here, are the names used by ”one” unionist operative?

    113. heedtracker says:

      The DUP now have more power in and over Scotland than every Scot put together, yoon or not.

      http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/richard-dawkins-creationism-at-giants-causeway-is-intellectual-baboonism-28768967.html

      They think the Giants Causeway is a few thousand years old. I mean come on Scotland, is there anything at all out there that makes you think that just maybe Scotland could be better run?

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      PLONK!

      That’s the sound of COLIN ALEXANDER joining a select few Unionist Trolls on the list of commenters to be ignored.

      ‘Bye! Colin. It hasn’t been nice knowing you.

    115. Phil says:

      Terrible, wonderful work CC. Many visualisations have a drop of blood dripping from The Hand. Adds to the terribleness.

    116. heedtracker says:

      http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/culture-minister-nelson-mccausland-on-gays-and-the-gaa-28495951.html

      “I believe it is the will of God that relationships should be heterosexual. I believe that’s what God intended and planned. But I would not treat anyone unfairly.”

      He’s 58.

    117. Cadogan Enright says:

      BRUSSELS HOSTAGE SITUATION REMAINS TENSE
      The worrying stand-off in Belgium continued last week.

      Pugwash Davis attempted to hold Ireland hostage – but remained unaware what demands his gang want in exchange. Communications had been severed with gang hide-out in Downing Street.

      Hostage negotiator Barnier trying to to figure out what Queenie Mayhem and the Brexiteers actually want – Pizza, drinks and a walking stick handed over in exchange for hostage takers giving up their demands that the trade agreement be negotiated – the Brexit bill, Ireland and EU citizens rights must be agreed first.

      EU SWAT team mobilsed. Considering going in to try and prevent the English shooting themselves in their feet. But up against a cunning gang leader who does not move from her den without first having the joint carefully ‘cleaned’ to ensure no-one capable of asking questions present.

      Search going on in remote halls in Scottish forests or defence establishment buildings in Devon to see if gang leader is still fighting Westminster election.

      Security correspondent, Skibbereen Eagle

    118. K1 says:

      It was reported from the very first day that the fire health and safety laws were different than those in England and Wales, by fire experts, who were suggesting that indeed England could look to Scotland to strengthen their legislation. Myself and others posted the specific paragraph from the Guardian’s live feed with the corresponding pdf file containing the pertinent differences in our legislation.

      Colin is a total scaremongering little stirrer to even suggest otherwise. Total fucking disgrace, irrespective of any political differences, to infer or suggest our government is lying to our polity on such a serious matter.

      This is part of the statement issued on the matter from the Scottish government on the 20 June 2017:

      ‘Ministerial Working Group convened.

      The first meeting of a Ministerial Working Group, convened to examine building and fire safety regulatory frameworks, has taken place today.

      The meeting was chaired by Communities Secretary Angela Constance with Housing Minister Kevin Stewart and Community Safety Minister Annabelle Ewing. They were joined by officials from fire and rescue, building standards, local government and housing.

      This group is overseeing a review of building and fire safety regulatory frameworks with an initial focus on high rise domestic buildings, following the Grenfell Tower fire in London. It will agree any improvements or actions identified.

      Initial actions agreed by the Group include:

      The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service will continue to carry out additional operational assurance visits to high-rise buildings. Since the Grenfell Tower fire, over 200 visits have been carried out by the SFRS to residents in high-rise buildings.

      Work already underway to develop a common standard of housing quality across both private and social rented housing, as well as to consult on and review standards for fire and smoke detectors, will be expedited.

      The Working Group will also consider current regulations and evidence base for sprinkler systems to determine if further action should be taken.
      Cabinet Secretary for Communities, Social Security and Equalities Angela Constance said:

      “While we’re confident that in Scotland we have stringent building and fire safety regulations which contribute to keeping people safe, following the tragic events at Grenfell Tower it is imperative that we undertake a thorough and critical review of our regulations.

      “Public safety is of paramount importance and, while the cause of the Grenfell Tower fire remains unknown at present, there can be no room for complacency. Communities across Scotland rightly want to know that we are taking all appropriate action and can provide them with the necessary reassurance required.

      “That is why Ministers have instructed Scottish Government officials to work closely with local authorities and the fire service to review all of Scotland’s high-rise domestic buildings, construction work that has taken place, the materials of any cladding and whether further action needs be taken as precautionary measure to prevent fire.

      “Initial responses from local authorities suggests the type of aluminium composite material cladding reported to have been used on the Grenfell Tower, has not been used on their high rise blocks and this would be consistent with our current building standards regulations.

      “We will continue to gather information from our local authorities and we will take a proactive and safety-first approach to this issue while we wait for information from the investigation in London.”

      Background

      Scottish building standards are devolved.

      All new high rise domestic buildings in Scotland are fitted with non-combustible cladding or a cladding system that meets stringent fire tests, and since 2005 are fitted with sprinklers.
      Multi-storey fire safety advice is available on the Scottish Fire and Rescue website.
      The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service offers free Home Fire Safety Visits by firefighters to provide safety advice to households and guidance on what to do in an emergency. SFRS undertake regular visits (at least quarterly) to all high rise domestic buildings across Scotland to check on site fire fighting facilities, stairwell design access, fire fighter access to the building and route access to the building for fire appliances.

      The formal remit of the group has been agreed as:

      This group will oversee a review of building and fire safety regulatory frameworks, and any other relevant matters, in order to help ensure that people are safe in Scotland’s buildings, and make any recommendations for improvement as required. The initial focus of the Working Group will be on high rise domestic buildings. The Group will also consider other buildings including housing, NHS estate, schools and prisons. The Group will identify and take forward immediate actions in order to provide appropriate reassurance to residents and communities about their safety. In addition the Group will identify medium to long-term actions to be taken forward which will include fire and safety advice, and the adequacy of current fire and building regulatory frameworks. The Group will ensure Parliament is updated and respond to any requests as appropriate. The Working Group will continue to work with UK Government and devolved administrations in taking this work forward. The Working Group will also take technical advice as required in order to inform its considerations.’

      https://news.gov.scot/news/review-of-building-and-fire-safety-regulations

      ——————————————————-

      There has since the 20th been a been a further two updates:

      First update on the 22 June 2017:

      ‘Communities Secretary provides update

      Communities Secretary, Angela Constance, said:

      “Scottish building regulations state that cladding on high rise domestic buildings built since 2005, and cladding added to existing high rise domestic buildings since 2005, should be made of non-combustible materials or a cladding system that has met stringent fire tests.

      “External cladding on high rise domestic buildings built before 2005 has to meet a Class 0 classification which was the most demanding anti-flame spread classification at that time.

      “We have confirmation from all local authorities that aluminium composite material has not been used in the cladding of their high rise domestic buildings. We are working intensively with local authorities to complete the picture for all high rise domestic buildings, including those that are privately owned, as quickly as possible.”

      Background

      Further updates will be provided in due course as information is collated and verified.’

      https://news.gov.scot/news/comment-on-cladding-and-high-rise-buildings

      ——————————————-

      Second update yesterday on the 23td June 2017:

      ‘Communities Secretary Angela Constance said:

      “This week, we asked local authorities to give us further information about their high rise domestic buildings. They have reported that they have over 500 high rise domestic buildings in their areas.

      “All 32 local authorities have advised the Scottish Government that no council or housing association high rise domestic buildings have the type of cladding reported to have been used in the Grenfell tower – Aluminium Composite Material (ACM).

      “24 Local Authorities have also reported to us that no privately owned high rise domestic buildings have ACM cladding. The remainder are completing their investigations as a matter of urgency.”

      Background

      A further update will follow the Ministerial Working Group on Building and Fire Safety next week.

      The Scottish Government is grateful for the help of local authorities in gathering this information, and also appreciates the support of the Scottish Property Federation and Homes for Scotland who have written to their members asking them to work with their respective local authorities to provide information on privately owned high rise domestic properties as a matter of urgency.’

      https://news.gov.scot/news/comment-on-cladding-and-high-rise-buildings-1

      —————————————

      I repeat it’s a total fucking disgrace to even hint that people lving in any of Scotland’s high rise buildings whether publicly or privately owned are being lied to by our government on this matter.

    119. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 17:23,

      Saw the Daily Slug headline today when I went to collect the paper. “EU bullies seen off by May” or some such pish. Exactly as someone on WoS recently foresaw would be the Dead Tree Toilet Roll party line.

      These BritNats are just so boringly predictable!

    120. heedtracker says:

      58 years old, same education as the rest of us and

      http://archive.is/sh37G

      Northern Ireland minister calls on Ulster Museum to promote creationism
      Nelson McCausland defends letter to trustees urging anti-evolution exhibits

      The Guardian, Wednesday 26 May 1710 11.59 BST

      “McCausland’s party colleague and North Antrim assembly member Mervyn Storey has been at the forefront of a campaign to force museums in Northern Ireland to promote anti-Darwinian theories.
      Storey, who has chaired the Northern Ireland assembly’s education committee, has denied that man descended from apes.”

    121. tatu3 says:

      I used to live in Stirling and the Orange Walk would go right past our house. They’d pop over our low garden wall for a pee behind the bushes and leave our garden full of rubbish including plenty of empty beer cans! They either didn’t notice or didn’t care that we could see them from the upstairs windows.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      @gus1940 says: 24 June, 2017 at 2:31 pm:

      “Re the ‘better country’referred to in final para is there somebody out there, perhaps even an offshoot of Wings, who could construct a site to which people can submit proposals for making Scotland a better place with the facility for people to comment on, amend and enhance the original submission.”

      Well I don’t know of anywhere else but this website:-

      https://www.snp.org/

      and this one:-

      http://www.scottishparliament.tv/

      Have quite a few ways of getting voters ideas to the notice of the current Scottish Government.

      There is even a Holyrood Government public petitions facility and, far as I can see, that means if someone has a good idea they want implemented they can start a petition that, if it gets public support, will be brought before Parliament.

      The SNP’s improved website is up and running but my point is the people who are demanding such services be provided are not using the facilities already provided. So why would providing alternatives do other than dilute those we already have.

    123. colin Alexander says:

      @Handandshrimp 24 June 2017 11.37am

      “They do reform but it is slow and cautious.”

      I basically agree with all you have said. Your response is a much more sensible one than the people who howl: “Unionist !” in response to any criticism of the SNP.

      However, I believe the slow and cautious approach is no longer enough. It’s a strategy that worked to get them to where they are now, but sometimes, you can’t just keep doing the same old thing.

      Indyref1 ended in defeat. We did well, but to wind we must do even better.

      Times change and tactics and policies need to change too or you get left behind. Labour are finally raising their game ( in the UK party). The Tories have raised their game of sectarianism in Scotland. The Tories poured energy and enthusiasm into their campaign and with the help of a compliant media did well in hiding how heinous and harmful their policies really are.

      The SNP have not raised their game. They had nothing new and exciting to offer. They did the opposite, backing away from the one policy that has motivated people: independence.

      As I’ve repeatedly said, they could have done more. They instead prefer to campaign on being the party of Scottish Govt. The best devolutionists. The best Westminster MPs.

      Total tripe.

    124. Legerwood says:

      K1 @ 5.40pm

      You can add hospitals and schools to the list of the buildings to be checked. The announcement was made by M&s Constance a couple of days ago.

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 24 June, 2017 at 3:55 pm:

      ” … Many moons ago, one of the Architectural designs for the Holyrood parliament building featured a massive TV screen. Was that Prophetic or what? A Scottish Parliament with capacity to broadcast … “

      Then, Petra, What do you call this:-

      http://www.scottishparliament.tv/

      That is the link to the Scottish Parliament’s TV link but the Scottish Parliament’s Home Page :-

      http://www.parliament.scot/

      Contains mush, much, more.

    126. K1 says:

      Yes Legerwood, it’s in those press releases I just posted.

      ‘The Group will also consider other buildings including housing, NHS estate, schools and prisons. The Group will identify and take forward immediate actions in order to provide appropriate reassurance to residents and communities about their safety. In addition the Group will identify medium to long-term actions to be taken forward which will include fire and safety advice, and the adequacy of current fire and building regulatory frameworks’

    127. Capella says:

      Another thing we can be doing is relentlessly pointing out the stupidity of the Westminster elite and their lackeys. Chris Cairns is an expert in political satire. Have we not been handed a prime example in the honorary Colonel of the 32 Signal Regiment, Kim Jung Ruth.

      Once Colonel Blimp was a caricature of arrogant, jingoistic British stupidity. Colonel Ruth could be his modern reincarnation.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Blimp

      Happy Army Day!

    128. Cadogan Enright says:

      Creationism. Climate Change denial and hateful statements about muslims, gays, non-whites, Catholics, Poles or any immigrant or refugee are amongst their better qualities. They become a tad difficult when they zone in on Irish people or worst of all Gaelic speakers.

      I have had to deal with them for years in my council. Thankfully the rules changed in 2014 and they can no longer make these statements in Council Chamber without being recorded and reported to the Local Government Ombudsman. Individually some can be quite personable and I suspect that many only say they support these positions to keep their elected positions and ensure no challenge from a member of The Free Presbyterian Church that between 1/3 and 1/2 of their elected representatives are members of despite being less than 1% of the population of NI. It’s basically a cult created by the UK Government’s long-standing policies in NI.

      Laws have changed for the better and they no longer have unfettered control of planning, jobs, housing or local or regional government. They are having severe problems adjusting to the equality agenda of Irish politicians of all hues.

      http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/inside-the-dup-domination-by-free-presbyterian-church-and-orange-order-laid-bare-30330698.html

    129. colin Alexander says:

      “Did you expend as much energy in supporting the SNP on line when you were a member as you have done in telling us why you no longer are?”

      No, not as much, cos I was out canvassing nearly every evening for the SNP MP candidate in 2015.

      But I did take the time to write to WoS about this, as I was one of his constituents:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-punch-ali-didnt-throw/

      In this GE campaign I also wrote supportive comments urging people to vote SNP and for Carol Monaghan MP in particular. I also wrote comments urging people to vote SNP and Green in the Council elections.

      I agree that despite their faults, they are still the best option for Scotland, but they need to improve or else the game’s a bogey.

      Let’s see what Nicola Sturgeon has to say in the coming week. Hopefully, something more substantial than rhetoric.

    130. Andy-B says:

      Brilliant Chris, absolutely spot on keep them coming.

    131. Breeks says:

      Capella @ 5:23

      Sorry, my fault Capella. I meant what are the SNP specifically about broadcasting. It is going to be a seminal issue in the forthcoming campaign, and an aspirational mention in an election manifesto that broadcasting ought to be devolved is not going to deliver a thing in the next 12 to 18 months.

      As it stands, the person summing up the case for Scottish Independence on the eve of the vote will be Nick Robinson, BBC, no doubt with Sarah Smith the roving reporter on a live feed outside an Orange Lodge near you, and honorary wing commander Davidson in an apache gunship flying overhead ready to drop postal ballots wherever there’s a call.

      Are we incapable as a country of providing dispassionate, informative cultural news and current affairs?

      I don’t expect Westminster to cooperate in the slightest, but circumvent Westminster. We are a Nation. Broadcast and be damned. When Westminster tries to assert its sovereignty over Scotland’s airwaves to suppress Scottish constitutional broadcasting, just as Westminster is right now trying to assert its sovereignty over Holyrood, then we should kick up such a stink about it and barrel into them about the inalienable nature of Scottish sovereignty.

      Who do you think the UN will support? Objective, native, cultural broadcasting trying to educate a sovereign population before a democratic referendum? Or a “foreign” based, external rabid monopolised network of propaganda channels with a disgraceful record of distortion, bias and news manipulation, which for two years before the vote has interfereing with the democratic process and even tried to subvert Sovereign democracy and have the referendum called off?

      I’m not anti-SNP. I just don’t understand SNP strategy. If they plan to do nothing, and sail into ScotRef with the same philosophy as YES in 2014, then I want to know about it now.

      And on a different topic, it would be overstating it to say I’m curious, but what did Davidson actually do to deserve honorary colonel? Seems a tad overblown for such a fickle dunce.

    132. Legerwood says:

      K1 @ 6.02

      Apologies. I did scan through them but obviously not carefully enough. Still it means a certain person has now got the message in duplicate.

    133. Jim Arnott says:

      Don’t know if I missed this but for me the Master of the “Gish Gallop” has to be Fluffy Mundell.

    134. heedtracker says:

      Let’s see what Nicola Sturgeon has to say in the coming week. Hopefully, something more substantial than rhetoric.”

      You lot will only be happy with, “I quit, see how you get along run by insufferable boobies like Colonel Ruth and her beeb Scotland gimps, Scotland.”

      Or this toryboy clown, in whatever this farce union democracy is meant to be,

      http://archive.is/YzdMD

      Theresa May looking at making lord Scotland minister instead of ‘rookie’ Scottish Tory MPs

      It is understood that Ian Duncan, a Scottish Tory MEP who narrowly missed out on winning Perth and North Perthshire in this month’s election, is a frontrunner for the role.”

      That torygraph narrowing missing out on winning line, is pretty good. Losing or not getting elected, are other non toryboy ways of looking at it.

      Come back Rock, you demented old roaster.

    135. David Anderson says:

      @Colin Alexander
      I wouldn’t worry, those who go on about Unionist trolls all the time are harmless really. They are also evidently working towards the ultimate goal for us all. In saying that, they do come across as howling at the moon bonkers sometimes. Sometimes I laugh at the comments, at other times it comes across as rather pathetic. I doubt I am the only one.

    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just responding here to the military turn of events. 🙂

      Sun Tzu’s Art of War

      3. Attack by Stratagem

      Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

      Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.

      Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy’s plans;

      the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy’s forces;

      the next in order is to attack the enemy’s army in the field;

      and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

      The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided.

      https://suntzusaid.com/book/3

    137. galamcennalath says:

      Breeks says:

      … broadcasting. It is going to be a seminal issue in the forthcoming campaign …

      Indeed it will!

      Hard to know what to do because the basic structure just won’t change prior to Indy.

      Voters divide in two groups. Those who see bias and unfair reporting and those who still take what they see, hear, and read at face value.

      They don’t split Yes/No because let’s face it, many committed BritNats see through the bias too, it just suits their cause!

      Those who believe the media need to have what they see shifted towards a neutral position. Any shift would be positive.

      One approach which might help is for Yes2/SNP/Greens to adopt a policy of rewarding good journalism and shunning bad. And don’t hide the policy, be open about it. Set out guidelines which no fair person should disagree with and say you will ignore those who persistently abuse their media powers.

      For instance, a big announcement conference, coverage this time is likely to be international. The ground breaking statement is made and it’s time for questions from the floor. Does it not always seem that the BBC get the first question? Why? Why not give the first question to a reporter who has a fair and unbiased record? Or an organisation without a ‘dog in the fight’?

      We all know the bad guys and gals, especially from the BBC. Just ignore them. Take a question from CNN or France 24!

      Or one to one interviews. Anyone who behaves unacceptably, never gets a second chance. They become persona non grata.

      I’m not talking about avoiding difficult questions etc.. Often it’s in the selective editing the bias is achieved. Everyone knows the games they play. There are 100s of examples documented. Behaviour like that is laid out in guidelines and transgressors loose privileges!

      Every little will help.

    138. mogabee says:

      So much genius in one ‘toon…

    139. Petra says:

      @ Robert at 6.00pm ….. “The many moons ago ……” comment was made by Breeks, Robert.

    140. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “UKOK Empire is striking back but we still have 3 years. Lets not waste them.”

      As soon as Nicola stops wasting time flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen, we can begin.

      But wait, she has a new dead horse to flog – a seat at the Brexit table.

      A golden opportunity with 56 SNP MPs out of 59, a majority SNP government in Scotland, and a large remain vote was spectacularly wasted.

      When the “UKOK Empire” really strikes back at the next snap general election, I predict that the unionists will stand single candidates and the SNP will lose almost all seats.

      I had called to strike a year ago:

      Rock (26th June 2016 – Notes from the madhouse)

      “With the UK leaving the EU, there is absolutely no credible way for Scotland to remain part of the UK as well as the EU as if nothing had changed.

      Everything depends on Scotland being fully independent.

      The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.

      Scotland is in a very strong position right now.

      Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.

      The independence referendum questions should then be:

      Should Scotland become independent?

      If Yes,

      Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or

      Should Scotland leave the EU?

      If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.

      We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.

      The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.

      All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.

      Strike while the iron is hot.”

    141. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Come back Rock, you demented old roaster.”

      Being a Guardian reader for centuries, how can you possibly be in favour of FPTP>

      heedtracker,

      “Like it or not FPTP is fair.”

      In my humble opinion, anyone who believes FPTP is fair is demented, no offence meant to genuine dementia sufferers.

    142. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – completely agree about broadcasting – but what is to be done? We’ve had the Culture and Sport Committee inquiry, the recommendations for a Scottish Six (again) the pilots, the promises then, after a few more months and years go by, the quiet dropping into the waste bin of even the meager fare that was on offer.

      Typically, when an armed revolution kicks off, the first facility to capture is the broadcasting centre. Nobody is in any doubt about the importance of controlling the propaganda.
      But, as Stalin replied when told that the Pope did not approve of his behaviour, “How many divisions has the Pope?”

      Colonel Blimp would be apoplectic at the very idea we would grab the microphones out of the hands of the Pacific Quay brigade.

      To counter propganda, we need to show that the MSM lies. Westminster politicians and their lackeys lie. Once someone sees through the lie, it ceases to work. We still have the internet, although Theresa May plans to fix that.

      If you can suggest a practical way forward – great! I’m on board.

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath
      Re. the lack of balance in the ‘news’ in Scotland.

      Public Sentinel: News Media & Governance Reform
      https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/pnorris/Books/Public%20Sentinel.htm

      Chapter 6
      The media, government accountability, and citizen engagement

      The role of the media in the agenda?setting process is to generate salience for some issues, or particular aspects of issues, thereby drawing public attention to a limited set of current problems. It has to be kept in mind that selectivity is an inevitable, even necessary, aspect of information processing. At any given time there is an infinite number of problems competing for public attention, and it would exceed the information processing capacity of individuals and institutions alike if they had to deal with them at the same time. Since for ordinary citizens the media are the main window to the world of politics the public agenda usually reflects the media agenda, that is, people regard those problems as most important that have recently been given most salience in the news.42 These issues subsequently form the basis for opinion formation and public choices.

      Newsvalues generate a particular pattern of journalists’ selection of issues which might, or might not, coincide with other measures of political relevance. Partisanship can be regarded as a special case of agenda setting. Media that are aligned with a particular ideology or party will select issues that promote this cause while ignoring any aspects that have the potential to undermine its validity. In the Russian case where the national news media ignored oppositional candidates and parties it would have required extraordinary cognitive efforts for individuals to find alternative information. Like anywhere else, the business of everyday life – work, family, queuing – usually occupies the best part of people’s time and attention, and only few would take the trouble to find information from sources other than the media to optimize the quality of their vote decision. Thus when making their choices people could question the credibility of the information they received, but they were stuck in the limited world view of the official agenda.

      Noelle?Neumann in her theory of ‘spiral of silence’ develops a similar argument by demonstrating the effects of selective media salience on political conversations in face?to?face encounters.43 As she points out, people obtain the arguments for their own beliefs and opinions primarily from the media. If the media hardly cover a particular political party opinion building of those who support this party would be based on a limited range of reasons.44 Moreover, when talking about politics with others they would find themselves in a situation where they are quickly running out of arguments. If these conversations take place with like?minded others mutual encouragement and mobilization would be rather superficial. If – and this is the key argument of the theory – these conversations take place in mixed company these people would fall silent because they are unable to defend their view while supporters of a party that is well presented in the media would feel confident enough to express their views in public. They might not initially be in the majority, but their willingness to talk in conjunction with selective media coverage will soon make this view the dominant one in both the public debate and interpersonal communication. It will hence be the one that has the biggest impact on the outcome of the election….

      https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/pnorris/Acrobat/WorldBankReport/Chapter%206%20Voltmer.pdf

    144. K1 says:

      Hoy David Anderson, whilst yer comforting yer pal about ‘howling at the moon bonkers sometimes’ maybe ye can huv a good howl at this from yer pal Colin, who you seem eager tae defend:

      ‘COLIN ALEXANDER says:
      24 June, 2017 at 11:52 am
      @maureen

      I hope tower blocks in Scotland do use fire resistant materials.
      Grenfell residents were also assured their cladding and insulation met all safety requirements. An assurance counts for nothing.

      With regard to the information you provide, it’s vague. The materials used are not specifically named.

      If you asked, they aren’t required to answer these questions:

      1. Insulation made of stone fibres which is non-flammable and is hard-up against the concrete wall. It is 125mm thick and is a rigid material;

      What’s the product/s called?

      What tests have been done? If the stone-fibre material is sandwiched between sheets of rigid material, can they show results of flammability tests for the whole sheet?

      2. Solid facade sheets made of fibreglass reinforced polymer which is resistant to the spread of fire and hinders smoke development.

      Again, what’s this product called? Flammability test results?

      Thus, unless detail is given it’s impossible to check the accuracy of assertions that these are safe materials for cladding.’

      What say you David? The information about what Scotgov are doing to ensure the safety of the people of Scotland, all the experts and authorities involved are not ‘part of the Scottish government’ are they? You know, the people who obviously will inform the government about the current status of said buildings and furnish them with their experitise in all matters relating to building materials, fire resistant cladding et al and health and safety issue in general on the back of the Grenfell disaster.

      But not for Colin, he demands to know all the technical aspects as if he’s the fucking expert whilst informing us aw that there may be a shred of doubt about what our public servants are tasked to do. Not once addressing the true scale of what is actually taking place down south, over 800 people being evacuated from their homes as we speak over night, cause the high flats they have been living in have been found to be so dangerous, that this is the only course of action recommended by the fire services that it has deemed as necessary to ensure their safety?

      He’s putting it out there that there is the possibility that our government is giving ‘false assurances’ cause look what happened in Kensington? That’s a ridiculous assertion verging on tin foil hat paranoia, it was established very quickly and has been known for over a decade that our building regulations are much tighter than those down south. It was as I stated in my reply to that blatant verifiable nonsense, immmediately on the live updates that the situation was different in Scotland in terms of the regulations being far stricter in the use of the type of cladding on our council high rise housing stock?

      The steps the Scottish government and every council in Scotland are now tasked with, is to verify and test whether there has been any ‘dodgy’ builders breaking our laws and regulations the way that obviously has happened down south? He wasn’t and isn’t capable of finding that information out for himself before coming out with even the slightest scaremongering over such an incredibly sensitive subject on a public forum?

      Now there’s the definition of ‘howling at the moon bonkers’ if ever there was one that fits so aptly.

      Your defending his ‘howling at the moon bonkers’ pish, decrying others who addressed this and other comments that are patently off the wall by him?

      Aye ah nearly ended maself laughing when I read that comment David. And when others in whatever way they expressed the ludicrously ridiculous assertions that he has come out with on this very thread today, where even the Rev intervened btl to call him out on another comment that was verifiable pish, are they the comments you refer to where you ‘laugh’ and deem ‘pathetic’?

      Cause I cannot figure out why you would defend Colin on just about anything he has asserted on this thread, as his input today has been nothing short of a master class on ‘howling at the moon bonkers’. That one comment alone, that I’ve quoted above, confirms this.

      Hope this comment gave ye a good laugh David.

      ———————————

      *it’s an intermission comment providing brief respite from falling rocks that are landing roon aboot this time stamp….be careful oot there people ;-). )

    145. Glamaig says:

      I wonder if Colonel Davidson will start wearing her army uniform in Parliament to get some practice as FM. I remember some European countries being ruled by juntas of Colonels.

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, very good.

      Irish mythology is actually very interesting, and I’d recommend it to all. Scots history often concentrates on the English and Norweigan / Danish influences, but usually avoids the Irish. Which is a mistake, I think.

    147. ChewinTheFat says:

      Lol, this is the best one yet. I totally see Mayhem on her knees, begging at the DUP.

      Is it just me or is that Arlene one no Rape Clause Ruth’s long lost sister?

      Kind of like Boris and Trump… Hmm…

    148. Rock says:

      It is the standard practice of the pompous armchair pundits posting here to use the “T” word against anyone who has a different view than theirs.

      You can be sure they have lost the argument when they have to resort to it.

      They have made this site their second home and ignore the website’s owner who has said many times that it is only him who decides who is or is not a troll.

      If they have no respect for the owner of this website, how would they have any respect for other posters?

    149. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      24 June, 2017 at 8:12 pm
      heedtracker,

      Look Rock, and anyone other twerp out there full of advice for Nicola, Scotland voted NO barely 2 years ago, OK? Its as simple as that.

      The concept that any sane political party should then expend all their political careers after 18th Sept 2104, trying to pretend that Scotland did not Vote NO 2 years ago, is barking mad demented. 56 SNP MP’s or not.

      So here we are with you and your ilk Rock, like all good trolls, you assault the enemy at their weakest point, in Nicola’s case, she lost the Scottish referendum, barely 2 years ago.

      Its dirty and really nasty this union of England’s domination but once again, barely 2 years ago, Scotland agreed to it. Scots were totally shafted by the great The Vow devo-max federal UK fraud but the fact is, Scotland voted NO. I have yet to hear one NO vote complain, oh I how wish the English hadn’t stiffed us with their The Vow carry on.

      Ok Rock. So with Brexit, all Nicola can do is ask to be involved, get fucked off ofcourse, then offer to hold indyref2, which is probably winnable. Maybe that’s why she’s gone for indyref2, put pressure on our tory masters to give SNP a Brexit slot.

      Maybe it was a wrong move, naybe it was too early and maybe it did trigger May’s snap GE and their pretty spectacular vote tory shock and awe blitz on Salmond and Roberston’s seats especially. Christ only knows, BBC Scotland gimps have laid down the SNP bad ground war for years now. It only got more and more SNP bad aggressive after 2014 and will only get worse and worse til the SNP are out.

      This is what’s actually happened Rock, not your pseudo fantasy world of what Nicola failed and failed and failed at, you trolling twerp.

      Also FPTP does work, in England, look at the latest power balance, who knows where the actual fulcrum is, in England, where it all really counts too, in this farce union.

      Carry on Rock.

    150. Rock says:

      The SNP is a victim of its own success.

      Stop protecting ungrateful classes who take advantage of SNP policies but betray the SNP when the time comes.

      These classes are the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English.

      Give top priority to uplifting the downtrodden folks in the schemes. They will not let us down when the time comes.

    151. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “The concept that any sane political party should then expend all their political careers after 18th Sept 2104, trying to pretend that Scotland did not Vote NO 2 years ago, is barking mad demented. 56 SNP MP’s or not.”

      In that case, why did Nicola start talking about another independence referendum immediately after the Brexit result?

      Was she “barking mad demented”?

    152. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Also FPTP does work, in England,”

      Is that the same FPTP which gave “landslide” victories to the war criminals Thatcher and Blair with barely 40% of the vote?

      FPTP is nothing more than an elected dictatorship.

      A creation of the British establishment for “strong governments” to keep the “plebs” under control.

      Anyone who believes FPTP is fair does not believe in democracy.

      I can’t understand how someone who has been reading the “liberal” Guardian for centuries could be in favour of FPTP.

    153. ben madigan says:

      @ everyone who talks about “The SNP presence at WM has always been a media poisoned chalice” and SNP withdrawal from Westminster.

      before we consider the SNP, let’s look at Sinn Fein’s abstentionist policy.

      SF MPs register, claim their allowances, carry out constituency duties but do not take their seats in Westmiinster.

      Setting aside the historical reasons and background, today’s SF as republicans 1) will not swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen and 2) will not be involved in the workings of the british parliament and state as they do not want the british parliament and state to be involved in ireland.

      SF MPs are elected on an abstentionist ticket, which has been confirmed in SF conventions. Their voters know exactly what they are voting for.

      With regards to the SNP – abstentionism would need to be proposed, debated and discussed in depth, and then accepted at a SNP convention.

      SNP candidates at the following General Election could stand on an abstentionist ticket and their voters would know exactly what that entailed and would vote accordingly.

      Until that issue is cleared up, SNP MPs need to stay in Westminster because that is what they have been elected to do . . . .

    154. heedtracker says:

      In that case, why did Nicola start talking about another independence referendum immediately after the Brexit result?

      Because Scotland voted Remain. Holy moly Rock you are not on your game of trolls tonight.

      It’s hard to say factually but its likely that calling indyref2 because of Scots Remain vote, did trigger the end of the SNP but its probably only brought out the mass BBC Scotland led media assault 2 years early, certainly earlier than the planned UKOK 2, SNP bad blitz.

      Challenge now for the SNP, withstand even more powerful massed BBC Scotland gimp attack til next snap GE, and then hold indyref2 at all.

      Clearly our tory imperial master baiters tell us they won last snap GE in Scotland but ofcourse they didn’t.

      The best bit of it all was Mrs May explaining how she struck upon the idea of her snap GE whilst on a walking holiday with her husband, another filthy rich hedge fund tory.

      Sure she did Rock, and the whole BBC Scotland led 2 year war on the SNP and Scottish democracy was just the most natural and impartial BBC non gimp display too.

      We’re nae that daft Rock. Or at least not as daft as you lot think.

    155. David Anderson says:

      @k1
      My comment referred to those who constantly decry any SNP dissenter as a unionist troll. It is laughable (especially if what he said is true about his involvement in canvassing etc). It’s also stupid. As for his comments re the cladding, I don’t agree with them nor do I agree with some of his other comments. I don’t need to call people unionist troll of other such nonsense if I disagree with them. However, your retort can be summed up in one, well, it’s more of a sound than a word, ahhwoooooooooo 😉

    156. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Vote YES in IndyRef2

    157. Indy2 says:

      Yes heard it

    158. yesindyref2 says:

      I can’t understand how someone who has been reading the “liberal” Guardian for centuries could be in favour of FPTP

      If the election a couple of weeks ago had been on a totally proportional basis, the MPs Scotland is sending down to Westminster would be:

      SNP: 22
      Con: 17
      Lab: 16
      LD: 4

      Indy: 22 v 37 Unionists.

      next

    159. Clootie says:

      …and we have an orange man in the Whitehouse!

    160. Tam the Bam. says:

      Completely O/T

      Why is it so windy?…I don’t give much credence to this Jetstream malarky (trump/brexiteer speak) ….I rather think its the butterfly flapping its wings effect..remember?…or mibeez # rapeclause has farted…take yer pick folks!

    161. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      As always, you are all over the place, unable to make a coherent post.

      Typical Guardian reader.

      On one hand, “in Nicola’s case, she lost the Scottish referendum, barely 2 years ago.”, so she shouldn’t be going for a second independence referendum.

      On the other hand, she should be going for a referendum “Because Scotland voted Remain”.

      Are Nicola and the SNP so stupid as not to have anticipated the unionist assault led by the BBC?

      The fact of the matter is after bringing up a second independence referendum, Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      She was than outsmarted by Saint Theresa calling a snap general election, the sole purpose of which was to stop a referendum.

      Saint Theresa’s gamble unexpectedly backfired for her but it succeeded in weakening the SNP.

      The SNP won the most seats but what matters more is its support fell from 50% to 37%.

      Admit it or not, Nicola has now been left dithering about a second independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Only if she had taken my advice:

      Rock (26th June 2016),

      “Strike while the iron is hot.”

    162. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2 at 9.43

      That’s true, of course, but if the previous election had been conducted with a proportional system, the SNP would have had 29 or 30 MPs, a massive increase on 6, and far more than the previous high of 11 (out of 72).

      That, perhaps, would have been something to build on, with scope for more gains, rather than the almost inevitable losses that the fluke extreme result of 2015 led to.

      Such an outcome would have been far more difficult to spin as a “defeat”, regardless of how many Tories also crept in.

      (I’m not saying I would have preferred that; it wasn’t on offer, and I found the pandafication very satisfying. I’m also sorry that so many good people lost their seats, though most of them seem to be continuing to contribute, freed from the constraints of office.)

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      Nove 2014: “At the same time, Wheatley plans to take on substantial debt to fund its social (and affordable) housing development program of 4,505 units, which will be partly funded by about £180 million of development grant from the Scottish government.

      http://www.wheatley-group.com/FileUploads/Full%20analysis_1415798757_9.pdf

      From a quick scan of just the page of google results, current funding appears to be £100 million from ScotGov.

    164. jfngw says:

      @Capella 8:22

      There would be no point storming PQ and grabbing the mics & cameras since PQ cannot, in itself, broadcast any TV services. The Nations coding for Freeview & Freesat is situated in England. They would still hold control.

    165. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “If the election a couple of weeks ago had been on a totally proportional basis, the MPs Scotland is sending down to Westminster would be:

      SNP: 22
      Con: 17
      Lab: 16
      LD: 4

      Indy: 22 v 37 Unionists.”

      That would be perfectly fair for me.

      Irrespective of the number of SNP MPs, what matters more is the SNP vote fell from 50% to 37%.

      Admit it or not, Nicola has now been left dithering about a second independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Who in the SNP will now advice her to call a second independence referendum with SNP support having gone down 13 points to 37%?

      A second independence referendum before Brexit is completed now looks doomed.

      After Brexit, Scotland will be at the mercy of Westminster.

    166. yesindyref2 says:

      An interesting point came up in my quick scan through Wheatley stuff, and that is that it has a credit rating of AA.

      The interesting thing about this is that banks and institutions credit ratings reflect somewhat the Government’s credit rating, but also vice versa.

      So while Wheatley is part of the UK but in Scotland, it’s possible that their AA credit rating could help support ScotGov’s credit rating to AA – or higher. Again a quick glance, but it appears Wheatley turn around £1.1 billion – a not insubstantial sum of money.

    167. Fireproofjim says:

      Rock@heedtracker
      Gie us peace, please.

    168. yes2indy says:

      Keep calm

    169. heedtracker says:

      Fireproofjim says:
      24 June, 2017 at 10:10 pm
      Rock@heedtracker
      Gie us peace, please.

      Awe.

    170. Rock says:

      ben madigan,

      “Until that issue is cleared up, SNP MPs need to stay in Westminster because that is what they have been elected to do . . . .”

      My prediction is at the next snap general election, the unionists will be emboldened to stand single candidates and there will be hardly any SNP MPs left.

      The biggest mistake in 310 years was to miss the opportunity of 56 SNP MPs out of 59, an SNP majority government in Scotland, the non-deliverance of the vow and the remain vote with a big margin to quickly mobilise and call a snap independence referendum when the unionists were in a complete mess.

      Admit it or not, the fall in SNP support from 50% to 37% is a major setback to the independence cause.

      To get back on track, Nicola must very soon state clearly that there will be an independence referendum before Brexit is completed, with or without Westminster’s permission.

      Then go on the attack. Take the gloves off.

      No more flogging dead horses – Scotland cannot and will not get a separate deal if and when the UK leaves the EU.

    171. yesindyref2 says:

      SNP support having gone down 13 points to 37%

      That’s a presumption and a trap a lot of people have fallen into. What fell was the vote in GE2017, which does not equate to the support for the SNP – and certainly NOT for Indy.

      Who in the SNP will now advice her to call a second independence referendum

      That’s the WRONG question. The vote exists in Holyrood as passed by 69 to 59, even the calendar dates in it are variable, and if they turn out to be too late or too early, can simply be amended, even if another vote is required.

      Nobody is calling for Indy Ref 2 right now.

    172. Rock says:

      By the way, who do the armchair pundits posting here hold responsible for the fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%?

      If it was the unionists and unionist media, did we expect anything better?

    173. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rock – ‘If only she had taken my advice’

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 :0 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 :0 🙂 :0 🙂 🙂 :0 🙂 🙂 🙂 :0 :0 :0 :0 🙂 :_ 🙂 ::: )) :00 ))) :0 ;….

    174. you huvvin a laugh says:

      Keep the heid.

    175. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “That’s a presumption and a trap a lot of people have fallen into. What fell was the vote in GE2017, which does not equate to the support for the SNP – and certainly NOT for Indy.”

      SNP vote of 37% does not equate to support for the SNP?

      In an election which was all about stopping the SNP and an independence referendum?

      I did not say it was for Indy.

    176. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “That’s the WRONG question. The vote exists in Holyrood as passed by 69 to 59, even the calendar dates in it are variable, and if they turn out to be too late or too early, can simply be amended, even if another vote is required.”

      It doesn’t become a wrong question, if armchair pundits don’t have the right answer.

      “Nobody is calling for Indy Ref 2 right now.”

      Why is Nicola not making it clear that her timetable for a referendum, that is once the terms are known but before Brexit is completed, will be followed, with or without Westminster’s permission?

      Why has she been dithering, while the unionists have gone on the attack?

      As long as she doesn’t assert herself, she looks weak.

      It is shameful if even Mundell can challenge her openly without getting a fitting reply.

    177. Brian Powell says:

      ben madigan

      LOLZ, Chris Deerin there. Anti-SNP, anti-indpendence.

    178. caz m says:

      Hi Ronnie and Ian

      All quite???

    179. Brian Powell says:

      Rock.

      The FM did make herself clear, has done for months.

    180. Brian Powell says:

      Rock

      The FM did make herself clear, has done for months. You’re pushing a fake agenda there.

    181. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Armchair’ pundits?

      Real Cybernats type their posts from a standing position.

      So there!

    182. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      David Anderson @ 21:25,

      David, I think we give everyone arriving on here their fair due, even the obvious trolls or casual arrivals.

      If you had bothered to stay abreast of all communications and not evidently merely the latter ones, you would have seen that several of us, not least Liz g, have tried to engage patiently and positively, and in return been treated to a series of faux-gripes and negative diversions, mostly re-hashed widely-discredited Labourite tosh.

      As the late Mr. Berry said, “too much monkey business”.

      After a certain point, we stop being so interested, and in the event of persistence, not too understanding either.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      Why is yada yada yada

      Probably because yada yada yada.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kRqnfsBEc

    184. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      Okay, I accept Wheatley Group is not all publicly funded: a lot of it’s money is private money borrowed with interest to be repaid.

      Paid for by us. How do they repay that money with interest? Higher rents. Higher factoring fees above the rate of inflation. Other money making schemes to make profits for the money men.

      Is that a good thing? When Labour and the Tories do no risk, guaranteed profits with the money men, youse go nuts on here. When it’s done with Scot Govt approval, it’s wonderful.

      They get the high credit rating, because the lenders know the debt will be guarantored by the Scot Govt.

    185. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @yesindyref2 Thank you and well done.

      It’s nice to know someone actually tries to verify my assertions, rather than just assuming I’m a Unionist troll and mouthing off.

      Another thing, why is older people in Greater Glasgow Health Board area being sent to PRIVATE nursing homes, such as BUPA care homes ( and others) for their rehab and assessment?

      If it were England, we would hear the howls of privatisation of the NHS in England.

      When Glasgow Health Board do it in Scotland, under the control of the Scot Govt what is it?

    186. ben madigan says:

      @ brian Powell – don’t doubt you are right –

      british labour is against Scottish Independence.

      just marked the article so people here are fully aware of attitudes as british labour rises in popularity “darn sarf” and the conservatives battle on in government without power.

      Who knows how long this situation will continue?

      In any case, given that May did not get her mandate for a hard Brexit – if the UK remains in the single market etc (as Corbyn and more and more Westminster MPs seem to want) there will be no “material change” or justification for Indyref2

      I suggested that might be the outcome here https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/05/21/corbyn-for-pm-its-a-great-british-thing/

      In my own personal opinion, if the SNP really wants to promote Independence, it needs to present and foster a “vision of a future country” that drives the YES movement and affiliated associations like Business and Women for Independence (like Corbyn has done for England)

      This is no longer the time for a prudent weighing up of legalities and a competition with Corbyn over who does most to implement leftish policies.

    187. Ghillie says:

      Stewartb @12.10 pm

      Thank you for the definition of ‘Gish Gallop’ = )

      Puts a few folk in their appropriate pile of pooh 🙂

      Me, I just gallop past those posts now!

      And am so grateful to those smart Wingers and the Rev who call em out for all that daft nonsense. Now that makes interesting and informative reading.

      Own goals for the Gish Gallopers!!

    188. Capella says:

      @ Ben Madigan – Chris Deerin is a Tory. He was Head of Comment at Telegraph Media Group, 2008-2013. He was previously political editor of the Daily Record and executive editor of Scotland on Sunday. He was also a columnist for the Daily Mail. He is a staunch unionist.

      He desperately wants Nicola Sturgeon to resign. I wonder why.

      http://archive.is/yc3x9

    189. heedtracker says:

      Another thing, why is older people in Greater Glasgow Health Board area being sent to PRIVATE nursing homes, such as BUPA care homes ( and others) for their rehab and assessment?

      Because SNP bad.

    190. Gary45% says:

      Why do SLab hate the SNP so much?(lets include the rest of the Yoons)
      The SNP want independence, which means NO MORE GRAVY TRAIN for the useless Scottish parasites that seek a lordship etc.
      SIMPLES.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Problem is that support for Indy is around 47%, and we need a significant percentage of the 53% to move over to YES.

      Some of them are favourable towards the idea of Indy, but have doubts. What many of them want though is more pwoers for the Scottish Government, and if I have Colin right from here and the H/N, he wants the Scottish parliament to be sovereign WITHIN the UK.

      That’s a very powerful step forward to what we have now. Very powerful.

      @COLIN ALEXANDER
      As far as the housing associations are concerned, and GGHB / BUPA links, I have no knowledge or opinions – life is too short to research everything.

      But in general principles I posted in the Guardian back in February 2012, that Independence would be won for Scotland by following one very simple rule.

      The Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth.

      That’s how confident I am personally that Independence is not just the best way for Scotland, but the only real way forward. All that’s needed is for the Truth to be debated, rather than a load of myths, misconceptions and outright deceit.

    192. ben madigan says:

      @capella – thanks for that info.I live and learn every day. I presumed he was leftish-leaning since the article was published in the new Statesman. I never doubted he was anti-SNP and anti-Independence.That is the british establishment position as we have long known.

      in any case it doesn’t change the thrust of my argument.

      Apart from all the technical underpinnings (currency, in/out of EU etc) we need a “vision for an Independent Scotland” that people can engage with, as we had in the Indyref1 campaign, if we truly want to hold and win indyref2

    193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 23:24,

      Hmmm, that gets me wondering if a spoof “SNP baaad” website might be a bit of useful fun. It would attract all the right people for the wrong reasons, yet maybe end up as a bit of an eye-opener for at least some people. (And get right up the noses of the rest!)

      One thing we need more of is a large dose of satire. (As with Chris’s cartoons.) You couldn’t make up half of what’s going on right now. Not least what’s being said by both “friends” and enemies about that sorry wee party unfortunate enough to have won the last three elections in Scotland. Why, it’s almost as bad as =oooh= the curse of oil!

    194. heedtracker says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      24 June, 2017 at 11:48 pm
      heedtracker @ 23:24,

      Hmmm, that gets me wondering if a spoof “SNP baaad” website might be a bit of useful fun.

      There already is one, Robbie ma loon 😀

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40383492

    195. defo says:

      “come on Arlene”

      Less Dexy’s, more like Bad seeds.

      “You’re one microscopic cog
      in his catastrophic plan
      Designed and directed by
      his red right hand”

      Fab lampooning again CC. Is this the record unbroken sequence then ?

    196. Meg merrilees says:

      Tatu 3

      If the OO comes back this year – take photos of everyone climbing over your wall to pee and get it printed in the local paper next week!!! Risky strategy but could work…

      Cogratulations to all this who marched past my house today, Saltires and Lions Rampant on their way to the Bannockburn commemorations.

      It’s a rare sight to see so many Saltires walking along the road.

      Not looking forward to the OO going past in a few weeks.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      I don’t think oil is a good example to use, as it’s not very environmentally friendly, needs a lot of money to be invested on finding it in sufficient quantities to make it worthwhile spending even more vast sums of money getting it out of the ground, meaning also having a load of roustabouts or layabouts as they’re unaffectionately called on your payroll, spending money on fast cars and crashing them, drink and getting drunk, and housing putting the price up for all around them, and then you have these big companies getting too big for their boots and making profits of which you get some corporation tax and before you know it, some government is going to spend it and all the resultant personal taxes and VAT in spending on things they really shouldn’t do.

      I thoroughly recommend ignoring it completely and just leaving it in the ground.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 23:36,

      That’s one of his many points, sure. Raw Labourite federalism re-served with a soupcon of wishful thinking added. What he doesn’t (and can’t) address though is how to achieve it. There is no viable political mechanism, and posturing from the sidelines won’t cut it. The Great Broon can’t make it happen, and neither can Colin. And we’ve moved long past that point now. Veto on foreign policy, eg., when the best we can hope for in the Brexit business is promoted failure Tory Laird Duncan speaking on behalf of Scotland? FGS!

      Gradualism is just useless weak-minded procrastination that would play right into the hands of those who don’t want any forward movement at all. (And likewise promoted by such people.) As we have learnt from bitter experience, the Unionists are as trustworthy as sharks on a recent diet. (Ach, there’s surely no need to rehearse all of that again now.)

      I could go on, but I’ll just get upset and take to the drink. =wry grin= Or metamorphose into a hard object and make everyone else instead. =laugh=

      Furthermore, all his later griping hardly convinces that he’s the slightest bit sincere about any of it anyway.

    199. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 00:03,

      I am being caustic. Scotland apparently being the only developed country in the world unable to benefit from its plentiful natural resources, according to the Unionists anyway. Norway an impossible dream.

      As for optimal exploitation of natural resources, that’s just one more item to be decided for ourselves once we have the chance. Speaking personally, I would use the oil to fund a serious transition into renewables, which is the real economic future. (And we still need plastics.)

      But that’s an argument for another day…

      …a glorious day!

    200. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @yesindyref2

      “if I have Colin right from here and the H/N, he wants the Scottish parliament to be sovereign WITHIN the UK.

      That’s a very powerful step forward to what we have now. Very powerful.”

      Spot on. And the pro-WM Unionists know it and hate it. This is not really about the union vs independence, it’s about POWER. The power to decide for ourselves. Sovereignty.

      If Scotland can have much of that power instead of WM we could make much more progress.

      And if that reform was backed by a referendum of the people of Scotland, if the reform won a democratic mandate by referendum, for WM to block it would be stopping democracy for all the people of Scotland – not just the SNP / Greens.

      If WM would not accept that reform, it would show WM’s modus operandi of the Union is domination and the denial of democracy for Scotland.

      The Scot Govt would be able to say to all voters in Scotland: we tried democratic reform within the Union, instead of independence. WM blocked what the people of Scotland has democratically chosen.

      (And despite what others claim, WM HAS ALREADY accepted other places being sovereign over WM in day-to-day operating terms – it did it for 40 years. WM accepted EEC / EU sovereignty- until Brexit began the recall of that sovereignty. We could waste time discussing the practical operation of sovereignty and true theoretical sovereignty, but if Scotland can have the final say – sovereignty in day to day operations as the EU had – that would be most incredible reform for the Union and Scotland since 1707.)

      The SNP should delay an indyref and instead hold a Scottish sovereignty Within the Union referendum. See how that goes first. It’s a way of going forward, inspiring people. Gaining new ground and new support to empower the Scottish Govt to improve life for people in Scotland.

    201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 23:55,

      Heh, heh. Touché!

    202. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 23:36,

      Now look what you’ve done. You’ve got him wittering on about it at length all over again. I am convinced he’s not even a real person at all, but some kind of yoonbot.

      Hello Colinbot: HOW THE HELL IS THIS WONDERFUL “NIRVANA WITHIN THE UK” GOING TO BE MAGICKED OUT OF NOWHERE?!!! WHEN THE FECKING UNIONISTS DON’T HAVE ANY INTENTION OF PROVIDING ANYTHING OF THE KIND?

      “Delay an indyref?” Nyhhhhaaaaaaaah….

      I’m off to burst a blood vessel now…

    203. Breeks says:

      jfngw says:
      24 June, 2017 at 10:05 pm
      @Capella 8:22

      No fellas, you’re not hearing me. I wouldn’t touch the BBC withna barge pole. Leave them be to broadcast their pish and stew in their own bile. Watch them froth in their apoplectic impotence when Scotland turns its head and looks in a different direction.

      What I would do is sponsor a “Festival of Journalism”, a kind of Brexit Expo, where Scotland hosts a series of summits between our government and the EU about all things Brexit. Get European figureheads like Guy Verfoftstadt and Michel Barnier to physically come to Scotland and bring their European Press entourage with them. Provide facilities and for their outside broadcasting vehicles, and as I say, have a kind of festival of journalism. Hold Pro European fetes and rallies, sporting events. Sponsor new trophies and cups. You could have round Scotland motor rallys, not hardcore like Le Mans, but a fun rally for vintage vehicles. Get Scotland to set out our wares from foodstuffs to tourism, industry and renewables, and have a promotion to feel good about ourselves in the company of our European guests.

      I don’t know the technical possibilities, whether we can access broadcasting relayed from these European outside broadcast vehicles and maybe get some kind of satellite service which isn’t broadcast in Scotland, but mainland Europe where we can access it. TV and radio.

      Get Nicola speaking to Guy Verhoftstadt, explain the predicament that Scotland has over broadcasting and plead for their help and support. Ask the heads of EU governments to liaise with their state and news networks and ask them what they would do in our circumstance.

      The whole point of being a member of the EU is that 28 heads think better than one, and use collective bloc strength to drive through hard negotiations successfully. Europe has leverage.

      We could also apply leverage from a different direction. Invite Michel Barnier to introduce Scottish broadcasting as a bargaining issue in the actual Brexit negotiations. If the UK wants time to settle its multi billion Euro exit bill, let them be granted time, but only on condition that digital news channels are opened up in Scotland. I know, that’s a bit lame, but its just an example. The broadcasting isn’t a lame suggestion, not at all, but the compromise was just a random example.

      We are in the EU club, we want to stay in the EU club. When Alyn Smith said Scotland had not abandoned Europe, and begged that Europe should not abandon Scotland, the whole chamber got to its feet. If we make it easy for Europe to help us, give them something to focus on, I feel positive they will help us and then some.

      We have to think big. Not Barnham and Bailey type big, but be sophisticated, think holistically, and let us just go for it! Go! Go! Don’t let the miserable BBC shrink our heads until we think like provincial governors. We are THE National government of Scotland, our SOVEREIGN nation is suffering, from not from an army of occupation but a media of occupation. We need media peacekeepers in big white media peacekeeping outside broadcast vehicles here, with boots on the ground in Scotland to monitor and protect our forthcoming elections and referendum.

      What goes around comes around. 700 years ago, the Leadership of Scotland wrote to the all powerful Pope in Rome, and asked him to recognise Scotland, and assist Scotland in its hour of need to resist the deceits and machinations of an all powerful tyrant in the South. The Pope did help, and he recognised the Declaration of Arbroath. We needed help, and Europe delivered.

      It is time for Scotland to look towards our neighbours in Europe once again, our predicament is modern, but it is just the same deal.

      Maybe there is another project to be given urgent attention. Say Scotland re-writes a modern Constitution which takes the sovereignty from the very Declaration of Arbroath, and we invite our European partners to recognise that new written constitution, just as the Pope recognised the declaration of Arbroath. It doesn’t have to be a Declaration of Independence, look at what the Declaration of Arbroath actually said. Its quite a complex Declaration, and asked the Pope just to recognise Scotland and help us.

      Have that modern Declaration blessed in the same Arbroath Abbey, and invite the leaders of Europe to witness it, and make sure every kiddy and pensioner in Scotland knows what the Declaration of Arbroath meant in 1320, and what it still means 2018.

      We have neither time nor a magic wand to wave to create a Scottish News community over night. We need Europe to lend us theirs, and we need to make it worth their while with newsworthy ceremony.

      It is all doable, but it needs momentum and intitative, and it needs to be happening now.

    204. heedtracker says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      25 June, 2017 at 12:22 am
      heedtracker @ 23:55,

      Heh, heh. Touché!

      We will get our Scotland back Robert, no matter how dirty yoon culture gets, even Colonel Ruth cant stop it now.

      I’m a Scottish barbarian but sometimes, when the yoons get sneakier and creepier, this does this trick.

      Let Scotland shine 😀

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4wDKP-Oi2A

    205. K1 says:

      That’s cool David, I just used yer post tae bounce the baw…higher 😉

    206. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @ infinity
      You still haven’t said…how or why Westminster is allowed to agree to this joint sovereignty thing?
      Will you have the queen make it so….or is God about to stage an intervention???

    207. Meg merrilees says:

      Breeks

      Well said.

      Basically – start creating the kind of Scotland we want to be!!!

    208. Smallaxe says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      25 June, 2017 at 1:06 am
      “Breeks

      Well said.

      Basically – start creating the kind of Scotland we want to be!!!”

      Hi, Meg, Breeks, No one else is going to make this happen but us and many others who feel the same way. Scotland is us and we are Scotland but I feel as if we are covered by a dome, we can see through it but we need to be heard outside of it.

      We have to get our views known and the idea that you have Breeks would be a superb vehicle for that purpose. Include me in, please. How do we go about making it happen?

      Are there any ideas pertaining to this that anyone else has, contacts etc. I’d love to hear them.

      For the moment though it’s bedtime for me to sleep, perchance to…

      Goodnight All

      Peace Always my Friends

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Re oil – I was trying a bit of satire as per request 🙂

    210. yesindyref2 says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER
      The thing is that your idea of Holyrood sovereignty within the UK needs a group, and preferably one or more political parties to propose and support it, as happened with Devolution before and during 1997.

      It wouldn’t be the SNP because the SNP is a party of Independence, always was, always will be until Independence is achieved. So it would need to be Labour, LibDems or Conservatives – or all three.

      This is a similar situation to 2012, when there was great support for Devo-Max in Scotland, and calls for there to be a “third question” in the forthcoming referendum. Salmond made it very clear he would support that option, if a party came forward to support it and campaign for it.

      No party did come forward, and in addition of course Cameron insisted on a single question.

      But the parallel here would be that for Indy Ref 2 there would be a third question. Westminster could make that a condition of having a new Edinburgh Agreement, and a new Section 30 Order to enable Indy Ref 2 from their point of view.

      But it would need the Labour or Tory parties to push that through Westminster AND to camapign for it when it comes, as the SNP, me included, and other pro-Indy parties and non-aligned people, would all be campaigning for Independence, and let the people choose democratically.

      The problem is that none of the 3 unionist parties have currently come up with a concrete proposal for that, and all 3 of them are totally opposed to another referendum.

      So the only option on the table is Indy Ref 2 – with one single question. But if say Labour came up with the proposal and the question for Holyrood sovereignty within the UK, and gave their full support for a second referendum containing both the standard Independence question AND their choice, then the SNP should and probably would, support their move. I would.

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      Just to clarify that for the hard of reading,something not restricted to Unionists, I would certainly support such a second referendum question on Holyrood sovereignty within the UK, but would be campaigning – as usual – for Independence, not the Holyrood within the UK option.

    212. Thepnr says:

      There are two distinct types of troll that frequent WOS.

      The first type want to cause chaos and havoc for their own gratification and their intention is to try and humiliate anyone who attempts to strike back with what is sound and positive argument.

      They will ignore your argument regardless and continue relentlessly on the same theme until you are forced to give up.

      This type of troll gain most pleasure from causing others pain, they use a baiting tactic to find victims who will provide them with the most entertainment. People who take the bait are then considered fair game and they will not let go.

      Importantly though they must have an audience to witness their antics and this aspect plays a major part in the pleasure they experience. Without an audience commenting there is no point to their trolling.

      It’s a form of attention seeking probably brought about because in real life they tend to be ignored. Generally loners with no appealing qualities. They’re easy to spot, so too is dealing with them.

      Totally ignoring them will break their heart.

      The second type is a different kettle of fish.

      Their agenda is to confuse and spread disinformation in a way that looks reasonable and possibly valid. This type is more difficult to spot.

      They will make false assertions that sound believable and have a ring of truth about them, they tend to quote common myths such as “it’s a disgrace that half of the children leaving primary school are illiterate”.

      They want to insert these myths into your brain and they want the myths to be spread. This type never provide evidence or links for their assertions. No it’s just gossip that they hope will be absorbed and spread wider.

      These are the trolls that should be challenged with facts and the truth. Myths can take hold so we should challenge them. It is worth providing evidence that counteracts the trolls myths and assertions so that others may see the truth.

      Unsubstantiated allegations of SNP BAD, or INDEPENDENCE BAD should be challenged and your own evidence provided. This allows all readers of WOS to see who the liar and mischief maker is.

      They can LIE. Let us provide the evidence that proves that they LIE.

    213. Ken500 says:

      Stu will soon be back to deal with the trolls who try to ruin the site. Just don’t feed them. Stu needs time off now and again. To refresh. The sharks think they can move in for a feeding frenzy. Trying to ruin the site. They have wrecked many others. Don’t feed them.

      More nonsense about Scottish education system, which is one over the best in the world. It could be even better. The Unionists Councils are trying to steal,money from the Education budget. To build unwanted vast non mandated projects and other rubbish, but not funding education properly. Deliberately. They overspend on all their budgets on any old rubbish. Wanton destruction of the City. Depriving the essential services of their allocated budget. The Unionists are the pits with money. They can’t count or read a balance sheet The ones who are worst at Maths the ignorant, arrogant Unionists.

      They have the nerve to blame the (SNP) Scottish Gov. Who are trying to protect essential services were ever possible. Mr Swinney has to give the education money direct to school in order to stop the unionists misappropriating it. The Unionists are already trying to steal education money and cut jobs. After spending allocated money on other rubbish non mandated projects. In order to line their own pockets. Habitual liars. Most of them are not fit for public office. They keep their crimes hidden under the Official Secrets Act.

      The Unionist make sure £20Billion is taken out of Scotland a year to be wasted by the Westminster Unionists, criminal and crooks. They have build up £Trns of debt. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Most of them and their cronies should be put in jail. Including May and Foster. Going up in smoke, Two utter criminals and liars. Destroying the world economy and killing and maiming millions of innocent people. The majority do not want any more if this, especially in Scotland. They have had enough. Scotland Independent in the EU. A Ref coming soon. For a better, fairer, more prosperous country.

      Don’t let Arlene and Theresa steal any more of Scotland’s money. To kill and maim any more people. They are an absolute disgrace. Killing vulnerable people and spreading hate. Appalling people. The lunatics at Westminster have taken over the asylum. ‘Psycho Bastards.’ Goodness knows the state of Scotland without the SNP Gov. The Unionists would have been wasting even more, than they do already. The SNP has done more for Scotland in five years than the Unionists did in over fifty. FPTP would get rid of the lying, greedy, lying troughers.. Stop them squandering taxpayers money and killing people.

      May and Foster trying to blame 5% (migrants) of the population. Trying to transfer blame for their criminality and wicked behaviour. Two peas in a pod. May and Foster have blown up the budget. Squandering public money on their extreme facist ideals. Their ideology of hate and blaming other people for their crimes and criminal behaviour. Breaking the Law at every opportunity. Just getting away with it. With impunity. Break their power. Vote SNP, SNP at every opportunity. Do not let the psycho bastards get in or let people down.

      Vote for Independence in the EU. Vote tonstay in the community of like minded people. For a better fairer, equal, cohesive, happy more prosperous country. Vote for Independence in the EU. In the Ref coming soon. Beat the drum for fairness not facists/racists and isolation. .

    214. Ken500 says:

      The BBC and others can beam their nonsense all over the world. Governments can’t stop them but they can, and should be called out over the internet. The internet can provide a retort to the nonsense. The same vehicle that is used for the propaganda. It isn’t working. They majority do not believe them any more. MSM is sealing it’s fate, The majority are not buying into it. Losing business faster than a sieve loses water. MSM is eating itself. It is not working anymore. Destroying their own business. Cuckoos mucking up their own nest. People are getting wise to it.

    215. Breeks says:

      Smallaxe says:
      25 June, 2017 at 1:59 am
      Meg merrilees says:
      25 June, 2017 at 1:06am

      ……. How do we go about making it happen?

      I understand about us helping ourselves, but such an ambitious idea would require an affirmation from the highest Court in Scotland that our sovereignty is with the people. We know that it is, but that formal affirmation becomes the nucleus at the centre of Scotland. Everything else will spin around the essential mandate of sovereignty. It is the vital spark.

      But the Court of Session, access to and influence with the European leaders, the event planning, the sheer volume of work to be done and funding to do it, the consents and wayleaves that would need to secured double quick, and in general terms the sheer gravitas required to be taken seriously, I cannot see this working unless it has the democratically elected voice of sovereign Scotland driving it forward. To stand any chance, it has to be our Scottish government in Holyrood.

      It is going to burn UK fingers and go beyond the Act of Union and provoke a response, but that is why we need that cast iron legal opinion which must at least throw serious doubt upon the Act of Union, and inevitable protests from Westminster about their water tight grasp on UK sovereignty.

      It needs our Scottish Government to be really buzzing, and essentially treating the issue as a national state of emergency and hoping that Europe responds at a similar level. No more of this lethargic wait and see what happens before we engage. ( I know they’re not lethargic, but it’s a perception thing).

      A popular uprising of people might do this, but what it really needs is our government to steer a bolt of lightning through the point A to point B, to C,D,E etc so that the essential objectives are seized quickly, and then our grassroots people have be vocal and visible backing our government to the hilt.

      But our Government needs to be more sharp, vibrant and dynamic than it possibly ever has been before. This is a constitutional state of emergency. Now is the time to smash the break glass units for constitutional emergencies, and ring that sovereignty bell loud and clear until the whole country hears it.

      I’m not even in the SNP, but the SNP needs to ok Policy through its conference. Well SNP members, how about a short sharp emergency conference prompted and indeed provoked by your exclusion from Brexit talks? Invite EU Leaders to observe and be alarmed and horrified about the broadcasting deficit in Scotland and insert the issue into Brexit Negotiations that Scotland secures the right to digital wavelength for broadcasting.

      We have probably less than a year to do this. The Independence of Scotland is no longer a marathon but a lung bursting sprint to the finish.

    216. Cactus says:

      How is it the saying goes..

      “Talk to the hand, cause the face ain’t listening”

      The creature wearing red at the end of this video looks familiar (see above)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j679RgrnPVE

      “Mmmmmm”

      Top movie if you haven’t seen it before.

    217. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr @ 5.26 am

      An excellent disection of trollish behaviour = )

      Could you please repeat this every so often. I think it will be especially helpful for all Wings’ new and growing readership.

      Stewartb’s definition of ‘Gish Galloping’ is another must!!

      A lovely sunny Sunday dawns 🙂 Shine On Scotland =)

    218. Smallaxe says:

      Breeks;

      As you say, it’s complicated but we are in an emergency situation.

      I am a founding member of our SNP branch here in Gretna and I’m willing and eager to bring this subject up for immediate discussion, hopefully, there are enough members and on Wings who will do the same with the backing of non-members. Money will be needed, we could possibly help with that.

      Thank you for your reply and your excellent idea, we will have to
      get it up and running asap if we are to stand any chance of doing this, there is no time to be wasted

      Any takers!

      Peace Always

    219. Thepnr says:

      @Ghillie

      Thanks, it was stewartb’s “Gish Galloping” that got me thinking and why I posted.

      Maybe stop calling them trolls. Gishers sounds just as good 🙂

    220. ScottieDog says:

      What’s all this ‘independent within the UK nonsense?
      Greece is independent within the EU.
      But it’s not is it. It doesn’t have control over its money supply.

    221. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      Devo-Max ….. Cameron insisted on a single question.

      I know from a trustworthy source that Cameron wanted to hold DevoMax in reserve to use as a ‘jam tomorrow’ deflection tool if things got too close.

      It was popular, everyone knew that. It would almost certainly have won had it been on the ballot.

      From a Unionist point of view, DevoMax or indeed any similar ‘middle way’ of extensive economic powers within the UK, is probably a bigger threat than Indy. They believed they could beat Indy, they knew DevoMax was a certainty. In 2013/14 they would have taken that view. If DevoMax had been guaranteed and defined it would have been hard not to implement. Scotland would have ended up independent in everything except foreign policy and armed forces. The final step to real Indy would have followed easily at a later time.

      The SNP probably thought DevoMax a good consolation prize. However, they couldn’t back off from their key policy.

      IndyRef2 will be exactly the same. The main thrust will be for Indy. The Unionists will avoid a genuine official defined ‘middle option’ like the plague because they know it would win and they would have to deliver.

      However, they are also just as likely to start talking about some ‘middle option’ as jam tomorrow if only you vote NO. Undefined, offers made in a woolly way, and made by people not actually in a position to deliver. In other words, Vow2.

      Devolution has clearly gone as far as the Unionist will actually allow. That doesn’t mean they won’t lie and pretend otherwise.

      Any real ‘middle way’, be it called DevoMax, Federalism, or “sovereignty within the UK”, is a step too far for Unionists because it is a step towards long term independence.

    222. jfngw says:

      @Breeks 12:33

      I didn’t actually make any comment on you comment but was replying to a hypothetical from Capella.

      Broadcasting is expensive, there is next to no chance of getting a freeview slot. You can get satellite slots easier but you would need to install an uplink or use the ones in the South of England. Even then their may be issues about getting on freesat. There are plenty of others satellites but very few people are aligned to them so what would be the point.

      Cheapest is internet channel but very restricted as to who watches it, you are not going to reach the people you need to as they are watching the MSM.

    223. Ken500 says:

      Will some lazy armchair shirkers and lurkers stop constantly moralising and criticising the SNP? Trying to maintain some stability and civility. Standing up for Scotland. In desperate days and dire times. The only show and organisation in town to stop the unionist corruption and greed. Bringing Scotland down.

      They are doing the Unionists dirty work for them. If they do not want to get stuck in and do what they can for a better society. Like little red hens. They sit on the sidelines pontification. Expecting others to do the heavy lifting for them. Donating, canvassing and campaigning wherever possible they can manage. Instead of having the luxury of sitting on the fence. Calling out the so called mistakes. Instead of getting off their hunches and helping, it is really annoying and disrespectful. To those who care enough to get out there and do something. A bloody nuisance, Either put up or shut up. Plastic Independistas. Those who can do. Those who can’t join unionists Parties and spout w’iffery. Leave it out. ‘ I’m not in the SNP but …’. Just rankles. Many people are sick and tired of it.

    224. galamcennalath says:

      @jfngw @Breeks @Capella

      At this stage in the game it is highly unlikely we can set up alternative broadcasting. Even if we could get something up on satellite or the internet, why would anyone watch it? Who would watch it?

      Dedicated Yessers would tune in, but what does that achieve?

      Those we need to convert to Yes will watch/listen/read existing media, not obscure alternatives.

      The best thing we can do bypass the msm by face to face discussion.

      However, we do have to live with the existing media. People and organisations which prove biased should be ignored, undermined, ridiculed, challenged, and called out continually. If soft NOs hear a chip chip relentlessly highlighting bias, some are going to think about why the accusations keep coming.

      Example, on Question Time, make light hearted but cuttingly sarcastic comments directed at Dimbleby. Or say to the audience, “is there anyone here actually from Dundee?”

      The SNP/Greens/Yes2 need to take a much firmer line with the media.

    225. Smallaxe says:

      Ken500 says:

      “Many people are sick and tired of it.”

      Including me, Ken.

      Peace Always my Friend

    226. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      24 June, 2017 at 11:40 am

      “Under the SNP the inequalities have grown in Scotland as much as in England. The SNP have taken NO STEPS to end the huge disparity between executive pay and ordinary workers.”

      Fucksake. Which powers do you think they have to do that? They don’t control minumum wage, tax credits or executive pay.”

      Who is responsible for funding education, councils, a large chunk of Wheatley Group etc?

      If the Scot Govt could introduce their ” accredited Living Wage” policy for workers at the bottom and pay rise caps for those at the bottom, why no policy to cap salaries at the top?

      We’ve read many times of college fat cat bosses, with several jobs on the go at the same time, raking in the money. Martin Armstrong of Wheatley Group etc.

      The disparity between lowest paid and highest paid in public sector jobs funded wholly or partly by Scot Govt is often HUGE.

      The Scot Govt don’t have any control of executive pay in the private sector, but they hold the purse strings for the public sector. That gulf in income between those at the top and those at the top is just as obscene in Scotland as in England.

      In fact some statistics would suggest it’s worse, if the figure about Glasgow City Council having more execs on £100,000 plus salaries than any other council across the UK is true. The SNP is in charge now ( minority admin with Green support). Let’s see if they do anything different from SLab.

    227. Ken500 says:

      Cameron was a crook who mucked up the world economy. To line his out pockets. Now gone. The lies that were told, The vow. Cameron did not want Scotland to get devo max or any more powers, he just lied about. Now out and discredited for all his lies. Now moaning from the sidelines. Tories nil. Scotland won. That will happen to any dissenter who tries and fails to stop democracy. The people will prevail. Scotland will get another vote. Coming soon. The majority are up up for it. Don’t let the community/society down. Do not bottle it the next time. Everyone do what they can. All out.

    228. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – great ideas in your posts re broadcasting. Why not ask Fiona Hyslop to take the first step? She currently meets with EU reps to discuss aspects of culture. She was very keen to have a Scottish Six and to promote Scottish film studios.

      She also, incidentally, stood up to Gordon Brewer in an interview. It was subsequently trashed as “car-crash” interview by the likes of Scott Arthur. It may be that the BBC will never interview her again.

      So an EU/Scottish channel accessible digitally would be a great service in these BREXIT times. It need not confine itself to news about BREXIT.

    229. Cuilean says:

      Colin Alexander: You are stuck in Londoncentric views on the Scottish economy and the fiscal traps set by the UK Treasury with policies guaranteed to create failure.

      But please don’t bleat the usual ‘Of typical SNP, blame Westminster for everything’.

      The SNP wants independence, not run the country with both hands tied behind its back.

      See Phantom Power Journey to YES 16 then get back with your concerned trolling.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C8trs8mGhk&t=113s

      e.g. GERS 25 of the 26 figures are estimates.

    230. Capella says:

      @ jfngw – there are satellite uplinks in France which is the direction of signal I was told would reach my area (NE Scotland). Someone with more technical know-how would be able to say whether a French connection (couldn’t resist) would be feasible across Scotland.

    231. heedtracker says:

      COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      Just keep posting SNP bad Colin.

      Other news, another UKOK day of media, Scotland blotted out completely. Yes this is what we voted NO for, another country makes the decisions for Scots, except that they have no idea what to do

      http://archive.is/LdSbL

      EU referendum and Brexit The Observer

      ‘Back soft Brexit,’ trade unions urge Labour
      50 senior party figures tell party leader Jeremy Corbyn ‘to fight unambiguously for membership of the single market’

      Jeremy Corbyn was under pressure from across the labour movement last night to support a softer form of Brexit as the TUC joined senior party figures in calling for Britain to retain the option of staying in the single market.

      The unions’ intervention followed a call from Hilary Benn, the Labour chair of the Brexit select committee,”

      You put your red tory in, your blue tory out, in out, in out, you shake your red or blue tory all about, and that’s what its all about, oh do the UKOK hokey cokey…

      At the end of it all, what ever EU decides Brexit is going to be, BBC Scotland gimps are waiting patiently with their, “Nicola Sturgeon fails Scotland…Brexit”

    232. HandandShrimp says:

      Quite liked the comment from Bill Whiteford this morning re the latest Sunday Mail spin on the SNP “parking” Indyref2

      “they may have parked it but they have left the motor running just in case”

    233. Liz says:

      Fabulous cartoon Chris

      @breeks great ideas.
      Something has to be done as according to the media, the Cons have been preparing for this GE since 2015.

      They are trying to destroy Scottish democracy with their little helpers SLAB.

      As for Corbyn, puleese acting like a superstar at Glasto.
      It’s pathetic and sad.
      He’ll fall for his own publicity and will be used by the Brit establishment.

      Scotland, Wales & NI are the last 3 colonies.
      The British used these techniques around the world and used to be successful.
      They are now exposed as the useless wankers they’ve always been.
      The world is now pitying them

    234. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell

      Thanks for the “robust” response to one of my criticisms.

      I get the gist of your rebuttal: The Scot Govt lack powers to make a real change.

      However, I would have preferred a critique of my proposals for a referendum of Scottish Sovereignty within the Union.

      If Scotland gave a clear democratic mandate for this?

      As I’ve said, the UK gave sovereignty to the EU: The EU had the final say on legislation. So, legally, constitutionally, I don’t see a problem with it.

      Scotland gave a similar type of sovereignty to WM, why can’t we recall some of it?

      I get it when people say: The UK Govt won’t accept / allow it.
      I accept political opposition from UK Govt, would be the major stumbling block.

      However, if NO voters also back sovereignty for Scotland within the UK – and that’s thrown back in their faces – then the UK Govt risks increasing support for independence from those who previously voted NO, as they will be on the receiving end of un-democracy from the UK Govt too.

      I agree independence is best. I’m not suggesting sovereignty within the Union as a replacement for independence. But until support for independence is high enough to win a referendum, it’s a way to challenge the status quo and reduce WM domination of Scotland.

      I always welcome your feedback, even if it is to say: “F***sake”; at least you don’t spout the “unionist troll” mince in response.

    235. Capella says:

      Link to Scott Arthur’s “car crash” Fiona Hyslop interview. Fiona stands up to Gordon Brewer very well. But that doesn’t please Labour (now councillor in Edinburgh) Scott Arthur:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNp_l1s8mdg

    236. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Toxic cargo of nuclear waste leaves Scotland for the US under armed guard:
      http://archive.is/j8MUG

      EU Says It’s Dazed and Confused by Theresa May’s Brexit Bumbling:
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-22/eu-says-it-s-dazed-and-confused-by-theresa-may-s-brexit-bumbling

      Tories aim to block full EU ban on bee-harming pesticides:
      http://archive.is/eFLKg

      Peace Always

    237. Petra says:

      Just catching up on here and see that we’ve had another night of individuals attempting to hijack the site with the usual guff. Backed up by the way, by the looks of it, with so called Independence supporters.

      Forget about Scottish sovereignty within the Union. Forget about multiple questions. Forget about having a referendum before having a referendum. The MSM is suppressing basic information from the masses in Scotland, such as, the fact that Westminster still has control over 82.5% of powers never mind the background to our sovereignty and all that entails. Westminster has had chance after chance over the last 3 years to throw us a few more crumbs but hasn’t bothered it’s backside to do so. Giving us a shred of additional power is not part of their long term plan.

      We’re running out of time now. Focus on getting our Independence. End of. And if you dearly want Independence join and donate to the SNP, as it sends out a clear message to Westminster and the Unionist leaders in Scotland. You can go on to vote for whomever you like after the event.

      Over and above the banter, CONSTRUCTIVE ideas / suggestions and so on get the latest news, facts etc on here. That’s the strength of this site, as the information is taken onboard by ‘lurkers’ and disseminated much further afield. Kowtowing to a bunch of detractors isn’t going to help. Far from it in fact.

    238. Thepnr says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER

      Would be useful if you started providing links to back up any statements rather than wishy washy opinion. Here’s something that might interest you and other readers re executive pay of our council leaders. April 2016 the Record:

      SCOTLAND’S council chiefs have received more than £1million of salary top-ups in the last two years thanks to the increased number of polling days.

      Three elections and two referendums being held between 2014 and this year mean bosses who oversee the ballots will receive an average of £32,000 each.

      That’s on top of already high salaries which are mainly more than £100,000-a-year.

      Figures show the chief executive of Glasgow City Council , Annemarie O’Donnell, will have received £75,000 on top of her £160,000 wage once of the referendum on European membership is completed in June.

      If she had been in post during 2014 when Scotland took part in European elections and the Scottish independence referendum, her increase would have been £110,000, it is understood.

      Over the two-year period, the returning officer in Edinburgh

      will have received £90,000 while bosses at several other councils including North and South Lanarkshire will have received more than £50,000.

      The returning officers, usually senior officials of a local authority, can receive the payments for the extra work and responsibility of running an election which includes managing nominations, polling stations, the council and declaring the result.

      The payments are made by the UK Government.

      https://archive.is/Lda53

    239. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS; Please take note these will be the last links for a few days! Battery charging in progress.

      Brexit: A Look at Britain’s Economy After the Vote:
      http://archive.is/fPE4h

      Church of England Admits it ‘Colluded’ to Cover-Up Decades of Child Rape:
      http://www.renegadetribune.com/church-england-admits-colluded-cover-decades-child-rape/

      Peace Always Folks

    240. Breeks says:

      At this stage of the game, we need to be doing the things we should have been doing 3 or 4 years ago, but don’t dwell on that now. It’s too late, so step forward not back.

      With broadcasting, I’m in the “build it and they will come” school. Once it exists, our Government and popular figureheads can elevate its profile through giving it exclusive content and access, and make it the go-to source for Scottish information. Be confident that we can produce the content to build an audience. Just look at the drivel we’d have to beat. Remove the central debate forum away from the BBC and leave their coverage at the perifory of the main debate.

      Get our splendid Phantom Power films making more films like their Journey to Yes clips, but fuller documentaries which articulate the real pros and cons of Independence, not the hysteria of using pound coins or not having a Navy. Help fund Phantom Power with the researchers to do it. Let us frame the case for Independence in a dispassionate, honest way.

      FRAME OUR OWN AGENDA. None of us want a Independence lost through BBC propaganda or won on the myth of some Scottish exceptionalism with a liberal coating of heather flavoured honey, but I’d wager every one of us would love to see the full bookend to bookend story of Scotland given the reality treatment; factual, analytical, objective, thorough, probing, but most of all, unafraid to tell it like it is. That is the broadcast media which I want to see. Lest us all go to the ScotRef polling stations as a nation which has exhausted the arguments, tested them and embraced the truth, and knows exactly what it is doing.

      Aim high, and even if we stumble or fall short, we still achieve something. Supposing it’s merely an increase in volume of video content which we don’t manage to broadcast and see being broadcast, it is still new media that can be dissected and used in online clips.

      I know the technical difficulties. Or rather I don’t, but I know there are technical difficulties, but create the problem, and you create the need for a solution.

      Maybe the right way is to flag this up as an issue for Michel Barnier. But quid pro quo, what would Scotland concede if not to Europe, then to Westminster? What would they demand in return? Shouldn’t we at least find out? Would you sign Scotland up to the ERM if Europe managed to deliver Free broadcasting?

      We’re not asking for a Scottish propaganda channel to off set the BBC propaganda, we are pitching for a neutral, objective and informative broadcasting facility to defend the principle of informed, democratic debate that is unfettered by propaganda. Let us at least try to persuade Europe that both they, and ourselves have a common interest in breaking the BBC’s monopoly and longstanding distortion of European values and issues.

    241. Smallaxe says:

      Comment Moderated;

      Thank you, Rev.Stu, enjoy your break. 😎
      Peace Always

    242. Ken500 says:

      The Unionists have been giving the DUP the Scottish Oil revenues to burn for years. To keep them quiet and for support. Wasted. Up in smoke for years. Supporting bigotry and sectarianism. Ruining their economy. Breaking all International Laws with impunity. Westminster Unionists Illegally keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. NI has been getting double subsidided funding for years in return. After ruining their economy with their ignorant bigotry and illegal discrimination. Getting away with murder. For their corruption and criminality They are a disgrace.

    243. @colin,

      what does `Scottish Sovereignty within the Union` mean?

    244. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Yes, that was the buzz at the time as well. The unionists had it good in Indy Ref 1. They avoided putting devo-max into a ref question, an option which would indeed have won, and Scotland would be well further on the way to Independence.

      But then last minute they were able to put it back into the minds of a public wary of change in the Vow, and avoid a YES vote. Smith then created a watered down version of the Vow, and even Smith wasn’t implemented in full – e.g. the Sewel Convention. From the Smith Report itself, agreed by all 5 parties:

      “22. The Sewel Convention will be put on a statutory footing.”

      but as we saw in the UKSC appeal, it wasn’t put on a statutory basis at all. And yet the people of Scotland don’t feel betrayed, didn’t get angry, didn’t turn to a YES vote.

      Similar will likely happen again for Indy Ref 2, there will be some promise to strengthn the Scottish partliament to make Scotland the most powerful devolved govenment in the world, which it’s supposed to be right now, and the same will happen again – betrayal. It’s in Westminster’s DNA.

      What’s in our favour this time is that for those that resist change, we are faced with change anyway with Brexit, hence Indy Ref 2 being before Brexit actually happening, so that the people of Scotland can make a choice, not between change and no change, but between which kind of change we want.

      It’s why unionists want a delay for Indy Ref 2 until after Brexit actually happens. Then it’ll be back to IR1 – a choice between a post-Brexit Scotland with further change, or keeping it the same.

      In my opinion, anyone who wants a delay to Indy Ref 2 until after Brexit is either a knave or a fool. Or both!

    245. heedtracker says:

      Usual display of BBC reportage across their farce union, on PISA this time. Compare, contrast BBC reporters in their Wales and Scotland regions. Wales, no one is blamed for PISA rank drop by the BBC, Labour hardly mentioned, no opposition critiques, Plaid, cons, fibDems, not required to defend, explain, blame.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40385843

      Pisa test scores ‘risk’ to Wales economy warning
      By Cemlyn Davies
      BBC Wales political reporter
      4 hours ago
      From the section Wales politics

      BBC Scotland gimps completely different, PISA rank wise, because SNP are very very bad for PISA in Scotland. And unlike Wales, every Scottish opposition party is given a beeb gimp’s opportunity to explain why too, because BBC is so balanced etc.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39856284

      First up, John Swinney, is bad, v v bad and,

      “First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has previously said she wants to be judged on her education record, which she has described as her top priority.
      But opposition parties have accused her of neglecting education while pushing for a second referendum on independence.
      Scottish Conservative education spokeswoman Liz Smith said reading and writing ability had fallen to “shameful” levels under the SNP.
      She added: “Given this evidence, it is abundantly clear that the Scottish government is not doing enough to address the problems in basic literacy that this data highlights.
      “It also shows that a very persistent gap between pupils from the most deprived areas and the least deprived areas continues, and that needs to be tackled.”
      Scottish Labour’s Iain Gray said: “No child should have their life chances determined by their background – yet that is exactly what is happening under a Nationalist government obsessed with the constitution.”
      Ross Greer of the Scottish Greens called for investment to reverse cuts to teachers, additional support needs staff and librarians in the country’s schools.
      And Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said the SNP’s “obsession” with independence was “taking a terrible toll” on education.

      BBC Scotland, taking down SNP Scots gov for over a decade. And they will do it too, May 9 2021, welcome to rule by BBC, Scotland.

    246. K1 says:

      galamcennalath, 9.07am

      This, a thousand times, this:

      ‘From a Unionist point of view, DevoMax or indeed any similar ‘middle way’ of extensive economic powers within the UK, is probably a bigger threat than Indy. They believed they could beat Indy, they knew DevoMax was a certainty. In 2013/14 they would have taken that view. If DevoMax had been guaranteed and defined it would have been hard not to implement. Scotland would have ended up independent in everything except foreign policy and armed forces. The final step to real Indy would have followed easily at a later time.

      The SNP probably thought DevoMax a good consolation prize. However, they couldn’t back off from their key policy.

      IndyRef2 will be exactly the same. The main thrust will be for Indy. The Unionists will avoid a genuine official defined ‘middle option’ like the plague because they know it would win and they would have to deliver.

      However, they are also just as likely to start talking about some ‘middle option’ as jam tomorrow if only you vote NO. Undefined, offers made in a woolly way, and made by people not actually in a position to deliver. In other words, Vow2.’

      Devolution has clearly gone as far as the Unionist will actually allow. That doesn’t mean they won’t lie and pretend otherwise.

      Any real ‘middle way’, be it called DevoMax, Federalism, or “sovereignty within the UK”, is a step too far for Unionists because it is a step towards long term independence.’

      Anyone seriously promoting the notion of ‘Devomax’, ‘sovereignty in the UK’ or ‘Federalism’ is seriously not keeping up with this reality nor understanding that we have gone way past this as an option for Scotland. It simply is never going to happen. Every single amendment, that the SNP put forward during the Smith commission debate in that Westminster fiasco in 2015, that would have given us more levers to shape our destiny was tossed out, not one amendment was passed.

      The unionists are hellbent in ensuring Scotland remains a part of the UK on their terms, permanently, it’s naive at best and a futile excercise in muddying the waters to suggest that the SNP ‘water down’ independence and compromise their raisin d’etre to accommodate a fantasy revolving around the absurd notion that we are dealing with rational, truthful protagonists, at worst.

    247. Smallaxe says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      25 June, 2017 at 11:41 am
      @colin,

      “what does `Scottish Sovereignty within the Union` mean?”

      Appeasement?

      Peace Always

    248. Thepnr says:

      Council executive pay, the only source of information I can find is from the right wing Taxpayers Alliance though I have no reason to question it’s validity as all the information is online and supplied by the councils themselves in their annual reports.

      Every two years they publish a report “Town Hall Rich List”. Here’s a link to the latest which gives the numbers for every council in the UK of those earning > £100,0000.

      Scotland it seems is on an average with the rest of the UK so no surprise there to be honest. Sorry about being diverted from the subject of Independence again, Tut.

      https://archive.is/lbtFc

    249. yesindyref2 says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER
      There is merit to your idea of Holyrood sovereignty within the UK. But you spoil your case for it by unwarranted and unsupported attacks on the SNP, which is why people think you are the “T” word. You do spoil your case for what would be Devo-Max plus.

    250. yesindyref2 says:

      @smallaxe: ““what does `Scottish Sovereignty within the Union` mean?”

      As I see it, it means the Scottish Parliament having absolute sovereignty in the devoution settlement, which means it and only it decides which powers to leave at Westminster, there are therefore NO reserved powers, it is just powers that Scotland decides totally itself to delegate to Westminster, such as defence, foreign affairs, setting of the VAT rate, corporation tax rate, collection of company profits.

      In fact it could be achieved just with a rewrite of the Scotland Act, making “reserved matters”, just “delegated powers”, and could be done with absolutely no visible change. If it came in at midnight tonight, nothing would visibly change, everything would be the same as now, interest rates, Barnett formula, even block grant.

      Except for one teeny-weeny little thing.

      It would all be under the absolute control of the Scottish Parliament, which could vary the terms, change or even totally remove, items currently “delegated” to Westminster. Even all of them, if it decided to do so, without any reference to Westminster, without any vote in the Hosue of Commons, without any interference or blocking being possible by Westminster.

      Effectively Independence by the back door – if Holyrood wished.

    251. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 25 June, 2017 at 12:15 am:

      @yesindyref2 @ 00:03:

      “I am being caustic. Scotland apparently being the only developed country in the world unable to benefit from its plentiful natural resources, according to the Unionists anyway.”

      I do wish Wingers would at least make some attempts to apply the lessons the Rev Stu has been attempting to instil in Wingers since WoS first began.

      Have you guys the slightest idea of just how many by-products there are derived from crude oil alone?

      Here’s just a few of them I can think of from the top of my head. There are over 6,000 important items manufactured from crude oil and among them are :-

      Ink; Refrigerant; Glycerine; Petroleum jelly; sports car bodies; Upholstery; Aspirin; Fertilizers; Detergents; Parachute canopy materials; Prosthetic limbs; Contact lens’; Shaving cream; toothpaste; Dyes; Paints; Shoes; Synthetic rubber; Water pipes; Nylon ropes; Anaesthetics. Yet you lot, and the Greens, want to leave it in the ground?

      There is absolutely no proper scientific argument for such a daft conclusion. The actual bad thing about oil, and in fact all fossil fuels, and nuclear power too, is when you process, (burn), it to in order to produce other forms of energy such as electricity.

      The physics of the matter are really, really simple. You cannot create energy nor can you use it all up. Energy is a set quantity and you can only convert it into other forms of Energy.

      In all such conversions there will be what engineers call, “Losses”, which factually are not lost they are just unwanted in that particular process..

      For example when you use petrol to make an engine run there are complex conversions being made.

      You mix the fuel with air and burn it. This produces, along with whatever the engine is driving, heat, exhaust gasses. particulates such as carbon. So the fuel is converted to movement or Kinetic energy. The movement of the engine is used to move the vehicle. However, you also have an alternator attachec that converts movement into electricity.

      The point is if you add all the various energies together you get the total energy potential of the original fuel.

      So what if the engine is a turbine driving a generator in a power station? Your original fossil fuel is used to convert the fuel into heat, then the heat into motion and motion into electricity.

      The problem is not the fuel itself but the unwanted, and unused, by products of the conversions involved that produce what we call waste products. In many cases that Waste Product could often be used but is inefficient.

      So much for, “Clean”, “Environmentally Friendly”, electric motor driven vehicles. Unless these vehicles are only powered using renewable electricity, (and they presently are not), then all you will achieve is to shift the source of the pollution from the vehicle itself to the fossil, or nuclear, fuelled power Station and factually the most, “dirty fuel”, ever devised is without doubt nuclear power.

    252. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @Thepnr

      I agree that providing links to support assertions is preferable, but it’s time consuming. I’ve been making comments and ideas to stimulate debate and allowed people to Google my assertions for themselves.

      But, as you made sensible criticisms and suggestions, to show I’m listening to reasonable suggestions:

      Fat cat college bosses under the Scot Govt: https://archive.is/uMRqv

      Fatcat Quango bosses: http://archive.is/TCIXk

    253. joannie says:

      @Petra – you were asking about the voting trends in NI and what effect they would have. Nationalists are headed inexorably towards an electoral majority, which means I can only see two possible futures for NI. Either a united Ireland or a NI within the union which doesn’t fly union flags on public buildings, has Irish as an official language, fewer and fewer Orange parades and a Catholic dominated civil service and police force.

      Brexit makes the first option more likely, but either way the future is not orange. The glee and triumphalism you’re seeing from DUP types is pretty much their last hoorah, their time is short and they know it.

    254. Thepnr says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER

      Thanks for the links, I would agree with you that executive pay in the public sector has become bloated though less so that that in the private sector.

      The question is though, how should the inequality gap be tackled?

      This is a question of course not just for the SNP but for all political parties and in particular the party in power in Westminster who control for example the level of the minimum wage.

      What’s best? To raise the income of those at the bottom of the payscale or cut the income of those at the top. This can be done through legislation by increasing taxes say for those at the top and increasing the minimum wage. These are Westminster powers, the Scottish governments powers are limited to raising or lowering ALL tax rates at the same time.

      So they cannot stick 5p on the higher rate without sticking 5p on the lower rate. This is not workable and a joke of a ” new power over tax.”

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Government/Finance/scottishapproach/scottishrateofincometax

      Colin the absolute truth is that currently the Scottish Government can do little in the way of reducing inequality without full power over ALL taxation and legislation such as the minimum wage. No point therefore moaning about it now when it is not under Scottish Government control.

      Until we are Independent and in control of all powers that is.

    255. Fred says:

      Fauldhoose’s finest ex-brickie Neil Findlay appears to be positioning himself for a Slab take-over & ditching Dugdale, if the future’s Corbyn he’s the man for the job.

      Didn’t catch any of the Glastonbury fans chanting “Kez-ia-Dug-dale!”

      Anent Dugtail, the puppy amputations, sans-anesthetic, looks like an own-goal! Doubtless the duke of Buccleuch & Queensberry will be pleased! We should never, ever, please dukes.

    256. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @yesindyref2

      Okay, I spoil my positive suggestions with criticism of the SNP. It’s discouraging to read moans. No point repeatedly moaning anyway, so I will stop now.

      I asked Stu to critique my Scottish Sovereignty within the Union idea. If he picks up on it, maybe the SNP will too.

      It’s a critical time, as Scotland needs to stand up against the forthcoming attempts to drag us out of the EU/Single Market and WM power grab of EU powers – if the majority of people in Scotland are against those ideas.

      We can’t rely on Sewell or LCM’s.

      People power is Scotland’s greatest asset. Especially highly motivated people like on here, but we also need to try to include those who voted NO. We need to get these people onside to improve Scotland’s situation democratically and economically.

      The anti-indy referendum campaign was really the pro-Westminster domination campaign. We have to show anti-indyref voters that fact.

      We have to give them something positive to vote for, that empowers them. They felt empowered at voting against indyref. Make them feel empowered by fighting to give Scotland the final say on matters that affect Scotland within the Union.

      Show them how voting for UK Tory or UK Labour, does not empower, it only empowers WM MPs that care little for Scottish interests.

      But we also have to give pro-Scottish independence supporters a reason to vote SNP. At this point in time, my suggestion seems to me to be the best compromise.

    257. Fred says:

      @ Colin Alexander, who exactly do you think you are that expect Wingers to waste their time looking up links to your shite posts?
      Away & get fkt!

    258. yesindyref2 says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER
      The problem is that your idea of sovereignty within the UK won’t appeal to Indy supporters. Well, that’s fine in itself, as indeed we do have to appeal to the current NO voters, many of whom were devo-maxers and could be attracted by your idea.

      But that’s enough to put the hackles up of out and out Indy supporters, so if you then mount an attack on the SNP as well, the conclusion is that you’re stirring it.

      In this forum it’s difficult enough to criticise the SNP on its own, even for straight Indy supporters, and I’ve noticed a good few names practically disappear because of the hostility shown to any criticism of the SNP. But if they were perfect we’d be Independent already, perhaps, so suggestions for improvement really should be welcomed – by them as well.

      Your idea of Scottish sovereignty is good enough that it’s worth sticking to it, and trying to get support for it – even from Indy supporters. But don’t forget that we’re still YESers, and are not going to take the idea as a replaccement of indy, nor as a replacement for Indy Ref 2, but can as a supporting act, and as I say, perhaps as a second question on a referendum – just as Alex Salmond himself indicated in 2012.

      Fundamentally this is a pro-indy forum, and that’s the aim and that’s the work of the regular posters, But I think in view of the fairly static support for a YES vote, other options to increase support for YES either short or long-term, should be encouraged rather than dismissed as “troll”. You would notice however that when I make a criticism of the SNP, I too, having supported Indy since 1972, also get called “troll”. LOL.

      Anyway pal, you’re on your own now, I’ve got work to do! Good luck 🙂

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      If you’ve been skim-reading posts as I do, you may have missed the part of Robert J Sutherland’s post which said “One thing we need more of is a large dose of satire.” in the middle. And my reply was an attempt at satire!

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander: “I asked Stu to critique my Scottish Sovereignty within the Union idea. If he picks up on it, maybe the SNP will too.

      Missed that first time. Colin, the SNP are not going to pick up on it as their policy, because they are the party of Independence.

      But they could support some other party or group if that forms, with a view to getting it as a 2nd question on the ballot sheet. Or if Westminster offered it themselves, they could support it as 35 MPs, to try to make sure it happened.

      If the SNP ditched Indy and took up full-time with some form of Devo-plus instead, they’d be a party of nowehere, with little support in Scotland.

      Havind said that, there is no reason the 35 MPs couldn’t put forward a motion in Westminster to have a reversed Scotland Act along those lines, but frankly there isn’t time to start from scratch before Brexit. So the initiative would have to come from one of the two UK main parties – Labour – or Conservatives. Then the SNP could support it in the same way they supported the Smith Report with their 56 MPs, and put forward unsuccessfully, amendments for FFA.

    261. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 says at 12:33 pm ….” ‘Scottish Sovereignty within the Union` …. Effectively Independence by the back door – if Holyrood wished…….”

      And no doubt Westminster would see it that way too, hence it being a waste of everyone’s time discussing it, a total distraction and the name of the game, imo, when we’re experiencing MAJOR problems getting our Independence through ‘the front door’.

      …………………………

      @ joannie says at 1:20 pm …. ”Petra – you were asking about the voting trends in NI and what effect they would have. Nationalists are headed inexorably towards an electoral majority, which means I can only see two possible futures for NI. Either a united Ireland or a NI within the union which doesn’t fly union flags on public buildings, has Irish as an official language, fewer and fewer Orange parades and a Catholic dominated civil service and police force. Brexit makes the first option more likely, but either way the future is not orange. The glee and triumphalism you’re seeing from DUP types is pretty much their last hoorah, their time is short and they know it.”

      Joannie thanks very much for getting back to me. I have to admit that I’m not conversant with NIreland politics, although I have been trying to brush up recently. I’d started to examine the political parties in NIreland which included those who hold no seats. When I started separating the Unionist versus Nationalist votes it came across that the Nationalists seemed to be more popular. The problem I had was that I was unsure of the real agenda behind each party said to be ‘neutral’.

      ”The glee and triumphalism you’re seeing from DUP types is pretty much their last hoorah.” Great stuff and overall very enlightening indeed. Your post has fairly cheered me up, I have to say. Once again thanks a million for taking the time to respond.

    262. CameronB Brodie says:

      The question is though, how should the inequality gap be tackled?

      This is a question of course not just for the SNP but for all political parties and in particular the party in power in Westminster who control for example the level of the minimum wage.

      I reckon a written constitution encompassing the “Right to Development”, is pretty much essential if you want to tackle rampant inequality. This would make unethical practices, such as price gouging and banking bailouts, unconstitutional and statutorily criminal. The market would work more efficiently and society is better protected from rampant capitalism (neo-liberalism). A win-win. 🙂

    263. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra “And no doubt Westminster would see it that way too

      Going back to the first Indy Ref, I think it was Dave McH said that Ian McW was a devo-maxer, and that made sense. He wanted a more powerful Scottish Parliament with more powers, same as the STUC at the time, but had the hope it could be done by a generous and sensible Westminster establishment. The reason he acme over to Indy is because he realised it wasn’t going to happen, and the reason he “backslides” at times now, is because he is, at heart, a devo-maxer.

      The ting is that pre-ref, supprt for Deveo-max was about 30%, and in the event we got half,, NO got half. What we need is the YES vote of that other half, and perhaps the way to do that is that they too realise that Westminster won’t let it happen.

      On our side it needs two type of Indy supporters. The ones who make the argument that it won’t ever happen – and why, and those who are genuinely sympathetic to the idea, see the possibilities, and try to keep an open mind on whether it can happen or not.

      That’s all it, really!

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      I’m procrastianting again, delaying getting down to work, nevermind.

      IF Colin’s idea was implemented right now, it means the SNP could take back at least partial control of immigration, removing one of the problems Brexit will give Scotland, take back partial control over foreign affairs so at least we could talk directly to the EU, take back at least partially a parcel of powers, so that the SNP could actually implement the December Single Market options paper, and would have a right to put the case to the EU-27.

      In fact, in the terms of the A50 Brexit invocation, “within the terms of the UK constitution” or whatever, the EU-27 would actually have to consider Scotland, rather than being sympathetic. Scotland could then implement our own solution to Brexit, and implement the SNP options paper, in full, without any need of “permission” from Westminster.

    265. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @yesindyref2

      Thanks. You’re posts have been very fair, including the criticisms.

    266. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2,

      I do believe you have been very extraordinarily understanding with our diversionary arriviste, who in return has been persistently lacking in specifics about how his professed aim is to be achieved, even with a fair bit of encouragement to do so.

      Mindful of Thepnr‘s excellent post upthread, I cannot help but wonder at the purpose of this new inducement to tread water and wait for some shimmering new Devo-Max version of the Union to emerge Venus-like from the ocean.

      Some of us here have been dedicated independistas for eons, while some of us like myself were part of that broad group of Devo-Maxers who correctly recognised in good time that the whole thing was one big con. Alex Salmond was willing to put a second (not “third”) question on the ballot, and it was turned down in unison by all the Unionist parties, even the LibDems who have claimed a supposed core belief in “Home Rule” for more than 100 years and were offered a golden chance to actually do something about it.

      As you say, the Unionists knew fine that such a question would have achieved a majority, and were consequently determined to block it in a cynical game of high-stakes poker in which winner was to take all, and they thought they were going to be the winner (and Scotland the loser). Post-indy, they tried to grab all the loot, and were taken by surprise when we did actually show some real self-confidence and righteously objected.

      Despite that, the Unionists haven’t changed their minds since, they have instead dug their heels in, and in the case of the Tories may well even try to use Brexit to retrench power back to London.

      As I’ve said before, the main problem with the Union has been, and remains, the Unionists. Paid-up stooges entrenched into defending a corroding UK monolith.

      So who and what purpose does floating “delay”, “devo-max” Mk.2, a multiple-option referendum, etc., etc. serve now, exactly? I think that answer is staringly obvious.

      Just look at it. Col. Ruthie’s highest ambition is to turn Scotland into another kind of Northern Ireland. The others have no ambition at all.

      And we’re supposed to just lie back at this critical hinge of history and wait for better times?

      I think we all know the answer to that.

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER
      No worries, fresh ideas are needed to help YES over the threshold, but also present real alternatives which empoer Scotland.

      I’d suggest getting in early on an appropriate Ian McWhirter thread in the Herald, if you haven’t already [1]. I’m fairly sure he does read postings, and who knows, might pick up your idea, or include it in a discussion in one of his threads.

      Anyway, there are some forums where posting it might make people think, who are currently firmly against anything more for Scotland, so it’s worth persisting, even in the face of outright hostility – much as Indy supporters did from the 70s on, and before, and even Devolution ones too, in the likes of the 79 devolution referendum campaign.

      [1] Busy these days, and don’t read every article, let alone every comment in the H! Did see your latest comment though. I upvoted it even though I don’t agree about the waiting part 🙂

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Yes, there is a campaign to “take the Indy Ref off the table”, and dealy or cancel it. But it doesn’t mean everyone who suggest it is a stooge!

      Probably later this week we’ll hear more from Sturgeon, and then perhaps that pressure will be off, though doubtless the unionists will continue to moan, whinge and play grievance politics all over the summer if Sturgeon says “no change – Indy Ref 2 is still planned as voted for”.

      Bless!

    269. Ghillie says:

      Ken 500 @ 9.58 am and Cuillean @ 10.27 am, Smallaxe, Heedtraker and others, wellsaid!

      The Gushing Gisher needed another wee gallop about. Cheeky fellow 🙂

    270. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Right Robert, tell us how you are going to win Scotland independence by indyref2. Assuming the FM says lets go for it, which I don’t think she will.

      When the price of oil was at a high point in 2014 and you still couldn’t convince 55% to go for indy. Tell me how you do it now with a barrel of Brent Crude less than half the price it was in 2014.

      Because of Brexit? A fair chunk of people who voted YES are pleased at that. They may not vote YES to go back to the EU or Single Market.

      So, come on Indyref Wingers, how you going to do it this time? What’s the new superplan?

      I’ll be delighted if you can, so please share the good news of how you will do it this time.

    271. Ghillie says:

      Robert J Sutherland 4.13 pm

      Agreed.

      Independence for Scotland = )

    272. Ghillie says:

      Nowt to do with oil.

      Scotland should be Independent.

      Am off to the new thread, Colonel’s orders.

    273. Chick McGregor says:

      galacennalath

      Hmmm. I just remember it as a full cooked breakfast when I were a lad. Have seen the tins of spam-like stuff in more recent times however.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top