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Ruth Davidson Lie Watch

Posted on May 26, 2018 by

So it appears that Ruth Davidson has been lying again.

And as is so often the case, the lie is easy to expose.

Because as Davidson herself notes – while apparently claiming some sort of special exemption from accountability on the grounds of being four months pregnant – the man in question was filming her. And he’s released the video so we can see exactly what happened for ourselves.

Did he follow her through the streets? Well, sort of, a bit. If you want to ask a public servant a question and they’re walking away from you, you pretty much have to walk after them. The distance covered looks like about 30 yards max – it’s hardly stalking, just trying to catch up with someone.

So was he “shouting Indy slogans” at her? No. He doesn’t shout any kind of slogans, or indeed shout at all. He talks in a normal tone of voice at a normal outdoors volume, asking a civil question in coherent normal sentences. (A woman somewhere else in the street can be heard calling out something about “the Scottish people”, but not the man Davidson accuses, who the unseen woman is nothing to do with.)

Were his dogs barking? No. Rather than the pack of feral snarling Dobermanns that Davidson appears to be implying, he has a couple of tiny, well-behaved Jack Russells that don’t make a sound for the entire duration of the video.

So Davidson’s account of events is almost completely untrue, even though she was fully aware that they were being recorded. You need to feel pretty darned invincible in the Scottish media if you’re going to lie about something that you’re fully aware is being captured on camera.

But it’s not like she doesn’t have history of being caught out in falsehoods.

Wings Over Scotland has exposed near-countless untruths from the Tory branch-office leader in the last couple of years, like this one on election statistics and this one on support for a second indyref and this one about the NHS and this one about the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors and etc etc.

Fact-check website The Ferret has also pulled Davidson up personally on numerous occasions – including on immigration, the rape clause and literacy figures – on top of her party’s general habit of truth-economy.

Now, however dishonest a politician might be, readers might feel it’s still a wee bit off to buttonhole them in the street. They’re human beings and they deserve private time like anyone else (although the incident in the video occurred during business hours on a Friday, when Davidson is supposed to be doing her taxpayer-funded job).

But the question is – what else is a constituent supposed to do when their elected representative is completely inaccessible by any other means?

Since being elected as the MSP for Edinburgh Central more than two years ago, the number of constituency surgeries Davidson has held can, as far as we can establish, be counted on the fingers of one hand.

While she’s never short of time to appear on Have I Got News For You or The Great British Bake-Off, or write books, or be a pretend soldier, or trot down to London to talk about independence (while simultaneously demanding that everyone else must STOP talking about independence) or attend a wacky photo opportunity, she seems to find it rather harder to get round to replying to letters from the people she represents.

When an MSP won’t reply to written letters or emails, when she won’t hold face-to-face surgeries, when she literally runs away from tricky questions on TV or radio on the extremely rare occasions she’s pinned down and asked any:

[EDIT 30 May]

…and when she spends more time doing celebrity appearances than in Parliament, how exactly are their constituents MEANT to make them answerable and accountable other than catching them by chance in the wild?

That a person asking a question of their own MSP by the only means left available to them can now be portrayed as some sort of harassment is a chilling illustration of the contempt in which many modern politicians increasingly openly hold democracy.

But we suspect that situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, certainly if Ruth Davidson has any influence on it. And even the dogs in the street know that.

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  1. 26 05 18 12:56

    Ruth Davidson Lie Watch | speymouth

375 to “Ruth Davidson Lie Watch”

  1. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Move away from the voters and don’t debate with them. It’s the Colonel’s Subway moment.

  2. ScottieDog says:

    The press are really going to plug the pregnant lady card and I can see the “pregnant lady to save the Union” narrative being used time and time again.

  3. HandandShrimp says:

    I think one of the reasons that Davidson and Baillie and others lie so blatantly is because they know that the media never chase them down on it. Their nonsense is reported as statement without analysis. Even when found out it is airily waved away with a smile.

    Also, the moment I saw the headline for this article my immediate reaction was “there is no shortage of material this is going to be long”. I have little doubt that it will be a list that will grow 🙂

  4. Muscleguy says:

    Nice ending there Rev. Hardly any Tories say anything that is true these days. I feel sorry for the likes of Heseltine who I have a grudging respect for. How has the party fallen.

    Time was it was SLAB who were the biggest fibbers in Scotland but they seem to have partly sorted their act out after finding the punters using social media to check up on them and calling them on their fibs and boy didn’t SLAB complain about it? Seems sensible minds got to work on that one as the Ferret has found.

    Meantime the Tories just lie and lie and lie.

  5. Richard Hunter says:

    If someone never gets called out on their lies (and RD never does in the Scottish press), then they will grow in confidence in their lying.

  6. defo says:

    RD’s priority list for Scotland
    The advancement of RD
    No referendums

  7. Thepnr says:

    Torn to shreds. She should get on with the day job and stop going on and on about Independence.

    Davidson you are a servant of the people about time you started serving your constituents and answering their questions.

  8. Richard Hunter says:

    If facing any sort of public scrutiny is going to cause RD stress whilst she’s pregnant, wouldn’t the sensible thing be to stand down from the leadership during her pregnancy?

  9. jfngw says:

    May and Davidson appear to be cut from the same mould, they avoid the public like superman and kryptonite. The look of distaste on their faces when they are forced to confront them is priceless. My impression is they really dislike the common people.

  10. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Stand by for the Daily Express to have a story about how Ruth Davidson was pursued for miles by an angry menacing man and his pack of hellhounds.

    As Ruth says herself….2014, ’tis as if you never left.

  11. Jules says:

    Ruth’s lack of accessibility to her constituents is extraordinary, and indefensible. It’s also terrible politics. That is what we (collectively) need to expose… and give every possible opportunity to the media (I know, I know) to expose.

  12. jfngw says:

    @Richard Hunter

    Agreed, is she inferring that a pregnant woman cannot carry out their roles to the same level. Hard lines ladies it would seem the Tory branch leaders is undermining any gains made in the workplace.

  13. Ian says:

    The Unionist ‘stars’ seem to think that they are in a TV show that’s a mix of The Untouchables, The Twilight Zone and It’ll Be Alright On The Night. Never mind, it won’t be long before the only show that they will all be on will be Get Me Out Of Here I’m A Hasbeen Celebrity.

  14. Ian MacDonald says:

    I can’t help but wonder whether the cognitive dissonance is strong that she actually thinks she is telling the truth. Perhaps when we see a guy asking a completely reasonable question in a calm, measure way, she sees a slavering thug with a pack of feral hounds chasing her down, shouting slogans.

    Or maybe it’s us – maybe the video really shows what she described and we’re all seeing what we want to see.

    *rewatches video*

    Nah, I’m pretty sure it’s her.

  15. TYRAN says:

    I couldn’t hear what was going on due to the dogs barking.

    Seriously though, Davidson needs an examination as dogs barking and someone shouting is something she only hears, like voices in her head. Would indicate mental health problems.

    If the pressure of the job is too much that hallucinations are occuring, then that needs looked into.

  16. shiregirl says:

    Roofie, you’ve been foond oot. Again.

    What’s it they say…a good talker makes a good liar?


  17. Marc Rich says:

    Dunnae hud back lyk…Savage takedown.

    But equally disappointing that she is so deficient yet seems to have a significant following.

  18. Vestas says:

    2014 departed for sure but her party of racists/xenophobes put indyref2 front & centre long before anyone could have predicted in the aftermath of indyref1

    Carry on clueless tories, you’re a great advert for indy 🙂

  19. Cactus says:

    Ah now aye see a pattern forming…

    1) Labour politicians consistently abstain from voting.
    2) Tory politicians consistently abstain from their constituents.

    Absolute fanny of the week duly awarded.

  20. Archbishop of Dork says:

    SNP MP Philippa Whitford performs surgery very occasionally and the Britnat media thinks that’s a scandal.

    Tory MSP Ruth Davidson holds a surgery very occasionally and the Britnat media thinks that’s fine.

  21. mogabee says:

    The only reason Davidson has got to this level is because she can learn by rote and fire out at increasing speeds.

  22. Big Bill says:

    I wonder if she is pregnant or is that another porky ?.

  23. Liz g says:

    So she took more time out of her day to tweet about him, than she did to talk to him!
    Is Twitter no ment to be dead stressful,mibbi she should bin that if shes so fragile…# Its no an illness!

  24. Macart says:

    That’s as clinical and thorough a dissection of Ms Davidson as anyone is ever likely to see. Certainly the mainstream won’t do the job, which is kinda why the new media is so very essential.

    A keeper.

  25. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Uncanny how the Pet Shop Boys foresaw the career of Ruth Davidson in some of the lyrics to their song ‘I’m Not Scared’.

    “What have you got to hide? What do you need to prove?
    You’re always telling lies, and that’s the only truth”


    “Tonight the streets are full of actors
    I don’t know why
    Oh take these dogs away from me
    Before they, they bite”

  26. Andrew says:

    Suggested new name: “Woof Davidson”

  27. defo says:

    Now that’s what you call having your cake, and eating it !
    Equality, when it suits.

  28. Mr Adam says:

    Noted the quick recourse to ‘pregnant woman’. Interesting insight into the mind of a self-publicist.

  29. Helpmaboab says:

    There are still some baleful voices who believe that Davidson is some sort of Messiah who can turn around the fortunes of the Tory party. Most, admittedly, are based in England and have only a passing knowledge of her career and character.

    It seems like only yesterday that Boris Johnson played the same role as Ruth…

    The characteristic both Tories share? They were protected from proper scrutiny by a supportive media.

    She isn’t a Messiah. She’s a very naughty girl.

  30. Famous15 says:

    The exhortation to stop using ‘Unionist’ or ‘yoon’ intrigued me so I tried out gently saying in conversation with a friend ‘you British Nationalists are mistaken’ but I could not complete the sentence for their outraged denial of being such a creature.

    The slow dawning of the reality of my remark was a wonder to behold.Long lost personal awareness was reawakened and they did not like the truth.Stunned they were so all I need is directions to Damascus.

    I am now sold on calling a Scot but a British Nationalist Y’all should try it but in safety! No barking now.

  31. Bobp says:

    And people voted for this thing.

  32. admiral says:

    Ian MacDonald says:
    26 May, 2018 at 1:29 pm
    I can’t help but wonder whether the cognitive dissonance is strong that she actually thinks she is telling the truth. Perhaps when we see a guy asking a completely reasonable question in a calm, measure way, she sees a slavering thug with a pack of feral hounds chasing her down, shouting slogans.
    Or maybe it’s us – maybe the video really shows what she described and we’re all seeing what we want to see.
    *rewatches video*

    It’s simply deflection, because just like other Brit Nats she cannot come up with any reasoned, coherent case for the continuation of the Union (except bollocks like “won two world wars”, “punching above our weight”, “pooling and sharing”, blah blah blah).

    Same with May and her “Brexit means Brexit” and similar nonsense when she’s asked a question.

  33. Marcia says:

    One of my friends said today she wants to swap those ‘barking’ dogs with her neighbour’s dogs.

  34. Socrates MacSporran says:

    But people, you are forgetting, Colonel Yadaftie is a Tory – and you know the motto of the Tory Party:

    Don’t Do As We Do, Do As We Fucking Tell You – You Ungrateful Lesser Beings. Because, We Are The People.

  35. galamcennalath says:

    Davidson’s existence relies on three things …

    1) distancing herself from her own parties antics

    2) having media watch her back and paint a false picture

    3) going for the über BritNat vote

    …. as Wolfie tweeted in the article, ‘she doesn’t speak to commoners’.

    In fact, she knows it’s in her interests to talk to as few people outside the Holyrood chamber as possible.

    Her facade is thin and she’s on a very shoogly peg. The truth is her number one enemy.

  36. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Famous15 2.35. Quite agree re use of Britnat with Hard-core No voters. It really gets to them: stand back and feel the froth and seethe. They then appear very hurt and confused but it is perhaps a starting point for them, if they’re not completely O/O.

    Thanks for that eloquent litany of Ruth’s lies, Rev. You can take the gal out of BBC Scotland but…..

  37. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    The most annoying thing about the Tories getting caught lying is that Scottish Labour (Branch office) will not attempt to score in the open goal.

    Labour should be over this sort of thing like a rash.

    Two cheeks same arse.

  38. Artyhetty says:

    No dogs barked at her, someone asked her a perfectly valid question, but untRuth makes up a lies about what was said and how it was said. What a disgrace, and as the article points out, she is renumerated hugely from the public purse.

    She seems to feel no responsibility to fulfil the role effectively, for which she is paid, in representing her constituents.

    Davidson’s celebrity politics has no place in Scotland, it’s a waste of time for all, it’s expensive and it’s an absolute insult to the people and to the Scottish parliament.

    To use her pregnancy to play the victim,( she was walking at top speed, difficult to keep up with anyway!) is a tad opportunist. Yes to be followed is scary, yes wee dogs can be scary, but untRUth seems quite a toughy. Certainly pregnancy makes a woman feel more vulnerable than usual, it’s instinct. Most however would not have a few burly men around to protect them in the street at all.

    On one occasion on polling duty I was verbally abused by a unionist guy, who had had one too many, it was unpleasant to be at the receiving end and he chose the time when no one else was around, if he hadn’t taken a hike the police would have been called. Next time, and hope not but, my camera will be straight out to film it.

    On the subject of dogs, a nasty neighbour set his Staffie on me last year in my street, for contesting some planning application, it was scary, but the dog knew I was no threat so it was very confused, poor thing. The dog wardens took it very seriously indeed. You get idiots, and deal with it and if you can’t you have what’s called the law to deal with it.

    Surely a paid politician during working hours could stop and answer a civilised question from a member of the public, out of respect and courtesy. It’s not a good look to go and lie about what actually happened on twitter. Still the Britnat media wraps the Britnat politicians in Scotland in cotton wool, they can do no wrong, while at the same time they release the vicious hounds on the SNP for well, doing the ‘day job’ in fact.

    However, Davidson needs to stop lying, it is not a good look no matter how much your BBC pals protect you.

  39. Meindevon says:

    RD says he was ‘shouting Indy slogans’.

    Another lie.

    He asked her about there being ‘no appetite for another independence vote’. But that is a Unionist slogan.

    She really is clueless.

  40. Abulhaq says:

    Ms Davidson does love the oxygen of publicity but much prefers the H2O of the Home Counties to her ain air. Why does this woman hang out with a crew of racists and sexists?

  41. Arbroath1320 says:

    Colonel Fu Manchu Unauthorised sex Clause Ruth Davidson – Gadaftie is a DISGRACE to the name politician.!

    She disrespects her constituents.

    She disrespects Holyrood.

    She disrespects the people of Scotland.

    She is clueless.

    She has no ideas.

    She has no plan.

    She is inept.

    She is ignorant.

    She is incompetent.

    She is all about one thing … herself!

    The wee boy who cried wolf once too often is MORE believable than Davidson!

    The sooner she pisses off to Mid Sussex to replace Nicholas Soames the better in my view.

    rant over … for now … I think. 😉

  42. George Clark says:

    Since when was pregnancy a disability of any sort?

  43. Fred says:

    If anybody’s barking it’s herself!

  44. Luigi says:

    It’s painfully obvious that without the protection of her MSM shield, RD would not last five minutes. Walking out on that interviewer pressing her on DUP homophobia, she has exposed an explosive, temper tantrum side to her character. Something that her enemies will be quick to exploit. Something to bear in mind during the next debate – touch one of her raw nerves and BOOM! She loses it completely.

    Looking on the bright side of this, behold the face of British Nationalism for the next Indy Ref.

    Rejoice! 🙂

  45. Andy-B says:

    Lets not forget Davidson and her MSP’s point blankly refused to stand up for Scotland (even though they were elected to do so) with regards to the Continuity bill.

    What kind of Scotland does Ruth Davidson and her party want? It certainly doesn’t appear that she wants a country, or her constituents, to have the power to choose their own future. It’s quite clear she blanks or body swerves any difficult questions that take her out of her comfort zone. Instead she relies on soundbites and platitudes.

    Of course Ruth Davidson’s only manages this deception with the help and support of a complicit media. However even they can’t curtail the frustration of her ignored constituents.

  46. Luigi says:

    Famous15 says:
    26 May, 2018 at 2:35 pm
    The exhortation to stop using ‘Unionist’ or ‘yoon’ intrigued me so I tried out gently saying in conversation with a friend ‘you British Nationalists are mistaken’ but I could not complete the sentence for their outraged denial of being such a creature.
    The slow dawning of the reality of my remark was a wonder to behold.Long lost personal awareness was reawakened and they did not like the truth.Stunned they were so all I need is directions to Damascus.
    I am now sold on calling a Scot but a British Nationalist Y’all should try it but in safety! No barking now.

    Well done! You obviously touched a very raw nerve. Keep up the good work, and call them out for what they are – British nationalists. And don’t let up, folks – keep calling them and keep calling them until they start foaming at the mouth and pulling their hair out.

    I wish some of those nice SNP politicians would also start using the BritNat label. Calling them unionists plays to the MSM narrative and allows them to hide under a veneer of respectability.

    You can be a proud scot and a unionist, but you can’t be a proud scot and a british nationalist – fact.

    Time to turn the tables and put them on the defensive. 🙂

  47. Scott says:

    As is stated she hardly ever holds a surgery or never can the Parliament body not hold her in contempt for not doing justice to her constituents??
    I have lost count of the emails I have sent and have never received a reply,as far as I am concerned she is beyond contempt.
    The things she has said at FMQs and the PO has not pulled her up just shows how she is let off the hook by MSM mind you she is ex BBC which tells us a lot.

  48. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Scottish Britnat politicians seek to subvert Scottish democracy and Scottish identity and to diminish the Scottish economy. Then when they’re asked impromptu questions by calm people not screened by party press officers their tactic is to scarper. And claim afterwards they were subjected to intimidation.

    That’s not going to save the union.

  49. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is an individual who clearly can’t distinguish between cultural competence and cultural chauvinism. Her world view require Scots to sacrifice their political agency, in order to remain British. Not being British is unacceptable, see. Furriners are bad, mk.

    Possessing agency is a critical factor to human well-being. British nationalism robs Scots of their agency and is damaging to Scotland’s cultural health. British nationalism articulates authoritarian cultural prejudice, or racism, against the non-English (see Brexit, for example).

    (t)Ruthless is a thick fascist, plain and simple. And doesn’t the Scottish themed press just love her?

    The politics and policies of welfare chauvinism under the economic crisis


    The ongoing economic crisis that emerged in the wake of the global recession in 2008, and was followed by the more recent crisis of the Eurozone, has introduced new themes and remoulded old ways of approaching the welfare state, immigration, national belonging and racism in Northern Europe. This article identifies two main ways of understanding welfare chauvinism: 1) as a broad concept that covers all sorts of claims and policies to reserve welfare benefits for the ‘native’ population; 2) an ethno-nationalist and racialising political agenda, characteristic especially of right-wing populist parties. Focusing on the relationship between politics and policies, we examine how welfare chauvinist political agendas are turned into policies and what hinders welfare chauvinist claims from becoming policy matters and welfare practices. It is argued that welfare chauvinism targeting migrants is part of a broader neoliberal restructuring of the welfare state and of welfare retrenchment.

  50. Calum McKay says:

    Davidson’s gloss comes off when under scrutiny.

    To date she built a reputation on no to Indy Ref 2, post brexit.

    That slogan has passed its sell by date, as has Davidson.

  51. jockmcx says:

    Ruth Davidson is untouchable as far as the media is concerned.

    The response she gave to that guy was her idea of a good nat
    bashing headline.

    She’s here to stir the shit and that’s all.

    She’s not worth the bother of a single scottish brain cell.

    Stay away.

  52. Walking On Sunshine says:

    Let me get this straight.

    Ruth Davidson is complaining (please forgive me if I can’t stop laughing).

    Ruth Davidson is alleging a man followed her down the streets (remember she has a posse of minders with her), and this man is merely wishing to ask the Tory leader some questions on her political views. Hardly a crime now is it?

    According to the Tory leader this man was shouting independence slogans (which he clearly wasn’t from the video). And what is an independence slogan anyway? And why should it bother Davidson? It’s part and parcel of the job.

    The abuse Nicola Sturgeon gets is far and away worse than anything Davidson gets, but I don’t see Davidson rushing to condemn them. One rule for her and one rule for everybody else?

    And while the guy is stalking her and shouting abuse at the same time he has the time to film her!! Can you believe it?

    According to Davidson the poor man is chasing after her, shouting abuse and filming her. All at the same time!

    And now we find out he has a couple of dogs under his control. You couldn’t make this up.

    According to the great Tory leader there was a man chasing her up the street, at the same time keeping his dogs in check, with his camera in hand and shouting anti independence slogans. I can’t stop laughing.

    What an inveterate liar she is.

    And people actually vote for these brainless Tory Britnats.

    They should start looking in the mirror. If they’ve got one that is.

    Thank God it’s Saturday. Apparently there’s a match on.

    I’m out of here. Down for a few jars to maintain my sanity!!

    Roll on independence!

  53. Luigi says:

    Somebody somewhere, sometime has to catch RD out with the question:

    “Are you a British nationalist?”

    (ideally during a TV debate). 🙂

  54. John Jones says:

    Went down to Methil docks to ask the seawall some the same response as from another relation.
    Does Ruthie really come from Methil?

  55. Abulhaq says:

    For Ms Davidson the crushing of the Jacobites, the suppression of Gaelic culture, the Highland clearances, the millions lost through emigration, the conspicuous poverty and economic exploitation, the foreign adventurism, the Orangeism and its primitive sectarianism were all a fair price to pay for being party to the predatory British empire and the socio-cultural condescension of the London rulers.
    Unionists plainly enjoy submission and never seem sated. All rather delinquent.

  56. shiregirl says:

    …and with those tweets, womennforindependence have lost my support. Wtf?! Did they watch the footage?

  57. jfngw says:

    You may have to forgive her, out in the street the sound of two oversized buttocks slapping together can easily be mistaken for a dog bark.

  58. AndyMak says:

    An ideal person to lead the Tory party and just as bad as Theresa Mayhem

  59. Artyhetty says:

    Re; shiregirl@4.57

    Indeed, WFI have made a heck of a mistake there, for such an extremely stupid and badly thought out tweet comparing Davidson’s non abusive man in the street questioning her, to the murder of Jo Cox. Disgraceful it’s what you might expect from Britnats but not sure they would even stoop that low.

  60. Artyhetty says:


    It just doesn’t help making ridiculous and toilet humour comments it really doesn’t.

  61. jfngw says:

    Not sure what womenforindependence message is giving here. What I pick up from it is I should not vote for a woman politician since if I try too ask her a question I am harassing her, even if they rarely hold a surgery or don’t reply to other communications methods.

  62. jfngw says:

    Oh, another site censor. If the site owner believes I have overstepped the mark I’m sure he will delete it. As for anyone else, I don’t really care.

  63. crazycat says:

    @ shiregirl/ArtyHetty

    I don’t know who writes WfI’s tweets, but having long since stopped being a paid-up member, I’m now intending to ask them to remove me from all their mailing lists.

    I’ll be telling them why. The other half of their name is “Independence for Women”, a cause which I think they are undermining more than enhancing.

  64. Abulhaq says:

    It’s the politics and nothing but the politics.

  65. If Theresa May gained the nickname “The Submarine” for her ability to disappear under the sonar at the first sign of trouble, Ruthie’s moniker should be “The Burrower”.
    She’s great at digging herself in a hole while trying to escape from that pesky reality.
    A perfect heir for the throne of England’s prime minister.

  66. Bob Mack says:

    Ruth is simply playing the victim card as usual. Her life is full of big burly SNP men holding wolves and shouting obscenities, whilst her supporters are Orange Lodge peace Ambassadors, shocked that anyone, especially an ordinary member of the public, would want to ask Ruth a question on anything.

    In reality it is just as in the video. Playing for public disgust and sympathy, but forgetting phones can record everything. Fail .

  67. Big Bill says:

    Her bosses in Westminster treated themselves to a new logo for £50,000 at the taxpayers expense.What a waste

  68. Robert Louis says:

    Poor wee delicate Ruth Davidson. Pregnant, so how dare anybody quiz her on her parties policies in a crowded Edinburgh street when she is accompanied by several members of her staff.

    Except, it isn’t poor wee delicate Ruth Davidson, is it. I watched her at FMQ’s this week ( and indeed most weeks) shouting and bawling at the top of her voice while pointing aggressively DIRECTLY at Nicola Sturgeon. She has no class. You see Ruth Davidson’s behaviour is akin to that of a class bully. Likes to dish it out, but not liking it when the tables are turned.

    If you do not want your constituents or members of the public asking you about your evil party policies in the street do not become a politician – and maybe stop YOUR party doing evil things like telling the terminally ill they are ‘fit for work’ (which is actually a pretty sick and twisted thing to do). That applies whether you are a man or a woman. Become a librarian instead.

    The public coming up to ask you questions in the street is part of being an MSP or MP. If that is not your kind of thing, get a real job instead.

    Ruth Davidson and the truth are complete strangers, yet NOT ONE so-called ‘scottish’ ‘journalist, ever picks her up on it. NOT ONE.

  69. Kirsty says:

    The really terrible thing about this is that Ruth Davidson actually told everyone that the man filmed her (a very wise move on his behalf for obvious reasons) and clearly still felt so confident that the media wouldn’t show the footage or ask further questions that she felt able to lie so blatantly about the encounter nevertheless. That really tells you everything you need to know not only about Ruth Davidson but also the MSM in Scotland.

    Also really disappointed in WFI – it’s not an act of violence to politely ask a politician a question in a busy, public place particularly when that politician is a stranger to constituency surgeries. How else are you supposed to communicate with them when they ignore you?

  70. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Louis says:

    shouting and bawling at the top of her voice while pointing aggressively ?…She has no class …. behaviour is akin to that of a class bully

    Just like the jeering, butcher’s apron waving, saluting, BritNat thugs who show their loyalty to London at every opportunity.

    Beneath her veneer, she quite clearly has much in common with some of her on-the-street Union supporters.

  71. Karmanaut says:

    If you want a meeting with Ruth, you need to be Russian.

  72. Colin Alexander says:

    It was a reasonable question but, what exactly did the guy expect, an admission there was an appetite for indy, that RD is a liar?

    Talking to politicians is a waste of time. Professional liars.

    I thought I recognised a well-known Tory MSP this week. I felt tempted to ask him if he was who I thought he was.

    I decided against it, in case he felt intimidated at being approached by a stranger in the street – he was alone.

    It’s not a crime to talk to a politician in the street. However, expect any discussions or approaches to be twisted like RD appears to have twisted this.

    My advice would be: don’t approach or confront politicians in the street, especially ones you know will be hostile to your political views.

    Remember, you are representatives for YES. Don’t do anything that would give the Unionists a chance to misrepresent your words or actions.

  73. William Wallace says:

    I only saw one barking dog tbh 😉

  74. Clapper57 says:

    Ruth Davidson exaggerates in her ill thought out tweet and is so upset by incident but still manages to get a dig via inference re 2014 i.e. inferring Referendum in 2014 was ‘divisive’and Yes side nasty side. Also by tweeting what she did she is inciting an invitation for Unionist retribution and ‘division’ in playing the victim. So wrong but so predictable under circumstances.

    Personally I think the guy was wasting his time…did he really think she would respond in any way?…even if point of video was to prove she does not communicate will that be what is reported ? This was an own goal …..knowing Ruth D and how she operates this was never going to be a missed opportunity for her to try and tarnish and misrepresent all people associated with Yes movement. This was a crass attempt and futile….fuel for the unionist fire.

    Imagine if it was a Unionist who had done this to Nicola ? Would we all condone it?

    Trust me I have no love for Ruth D and her double standards re her supporting and condoning the bigots disguised as Tory councilors that currently hold office in her party. I am aware she is an opportunist when it comes to twisting the truth and milking any opportunity to portray Indy supporters in a bad light but why give her the ammunition.

    100% the guy who filmed this was in no way threatening or abusive but that is not what is at issue here….it’s the Chinese whispers that will surely ensue and potential media coverage. Remember not everyone knows what she is like….and other people may deem this a step too far while not being given all info as is the way the MSM operate…do they not.

    Now we have Women for Indy going OTT by including #JoCox in their tweet….really? Fan the flames why don’t you….like there will not be enough Unionist detractors jumping on bandwagon of ‘victim of Cybernats’. If they disagreed they could have just said they thought it was wrong….no need for them to go all Ruth Davidson. Makes it seem an organisation that is more ‘Woman’ and less ‘Indy’ really with their neurotic tweet.

    But ultimately still think this was a deed not worth doing IMO

    However in regards to Rev exposing all hypocrisy re his above post he does give balance and justification to the argument that she is a hypocrite of the highest order who has form on this….but just as we do not feed Trolls we should also not give them weapons with which to attack us….they do not play fair and never will but it is not them we need to win over if we want independence is it.

    The above is merely my personal opinion and in no way do I think I am right and others wrong…..but I, like everyone else, do have the right on this forum to voice my opinion while respecting others have theirs too. I do appreciate I may come over as a bit split personality in this as I both condemn Ruth’s Tweet and to a degree the gentleman at the centre of this storm in a Tory tea cup but hey ho….there you go….it’s what I think.

  75. Orri says:

    The most probable turn of events is that she didn’t realised she’d been filmed, learned she had and desperately tried to spike it by describing it in a way that might stop people bothering to watch it.

    A bit like we’ll get some critics of the growth report who seem to have read a deliberately false leaked draft of are making its contents up in the hopes the general public won’t bother reading it.

    The vocal criticisms before do seem an attempt to argue against it might unseen and hopefully bias opinion.

    Kind of like some articles brazenly supply linked references that directly contradict the point they’re meant to support.

    So I read RDs tweet and accept sight unseen her version of events or I watch it with her version at the back of my mind.

    Getting old but wasn’t it a Sherlock Holmes story that relied on a dog not barking?

  76. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Well, if the media did their job properly, there wouldn’t be any need for a lone individual to “interview” her out in the street, would there?

    I heard a snatch of her last outing on R4 lunchtime news the other day, the Beeb’s “balanced” coverage of the other side’s reaction to the Growth Commission report. She spouted her usual bag of distortions and contra-factual nonsenses, and the wimp of an interviewer let it all pass with only the mildest of challenges as she spouted on regardless.

    It’s the media that’s to blame here. They failed in IR1 and failed in EuRef and they are routinely failing again now. Our democracy isn’t safe in their limp hands.

  77. Hamish100 says:

    So Davidson lied. What’s new.

    I do have issues over an individual “cold calling” and wanting to impose on ANother on the public street their views as if they have all the rights. If I had family or friends with me I would go into protective mode. If I came out of a political rally or meeting then fair game. There is a fine dividing line here and on balance Davidson was found out. But we have to be careful that individuals (claiming all sort of things) don’t tar the independence movement.

  78. Kirsty says:


    Totally agree with you. I still think it’s telling that she’s so confident that the mainstream media won’t investigate that she can just blatantly lie but we should be aware of that by now and not give them an easy mark. Why bother?

  79. wee bud says:

    Big game is live on youtube for anybody wanting to watch it..

    Ruth is protected by the media especially tv.. She is one of them after all.. If the rev wasn’t here to put the video up ,this would be a headline story.. Might still be!

  80. Gfaetheblock says:

    Filming a woman who doesn’t know you whilst she is walking down the street going about her day is pretty fucking creepy.

    It is pretty exceptional that the video gives the tory the moral high ground

  81. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: the ‘Britnat’ discussion above.

    An idea…

    Whenever a pro-indy person is in an interview/discussion/debate on TV or radio, they should make a point of asking an ant-indy participant one question, immediately followed by the second.

    1. Were you born in Scotland or have you lived your life mostly in Scotland?

    If the answer is yes, then,

    2. Do you regard yourself as a Scottish patriot or a British Nationalist?

    Could be…

  82. admiral says:

    Karmanaut says:
    26 May, 2018 at 6:21 pm
    If you want a meeting with Ruth, you need to be Russian.

    And have a big cheque made out in RD’s name.

  83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Gfaetheblock @ 19:28,

    Another typical outing for the BritNat apologist, this one frankly with a rather sexist undertone. Ruth Davidson is not just any random “woman”, she’s a public figure whose very trademark is an extremely robust promotion of her views, with a distictly militarist sideline, uniforms, tanks and all.

    But now she, and you following up behind, try to portray her instead as some sorry put-upon puir wee wumman.

    Aye, like any other bully she likes to hand it out, but instantly turns into the victim when she’s on the receiving end. Even with something as innocuous as a pertinent question or two of public interest.

    Excuse me, but your typical BritNat double standards are on show yet again.

  84. Bill Dale says:

    Dave McEwan-Hill’s article linked to by Sam above (Macart) was and still is a great example of reframing the establishment narrative to reflect the real situation in Scotland. We have been lied to for years and so-called journalists and establishment politicians have reinforced the establishment lies at every turn. Now it is our turn. Scotland is big enough, smart enough and rich enough. Why wouldn’t we be independent?

    Growth commission or no growth commission, keep any discussion at the level of values. Every other nation state that become independent in the last 70 years or so did so without worrying about currency, finances or trade. These are false narratives designed to distract us and the public at large from the simple truth. We are big enough, smart enough and rich enough so let’s just get on and do it.

  85. mike cassidy says:


    I think this is interesting -and I haven’t archived it in order that the graph is present

    but maybe Saturday night is not the best time to be trying to get my head round it.

    “…No one studying the 2014 campaign in the round can conclude that Project Fear was a successful strategy. Voters may have their economic doubts about independence but, as we saw again with Brexit two years later, they react against politicians hammering home that negative message. “Yes we can” is liable to beat “No we can’t”. For this reason, many swing voters will like the sound of the SNP’s latest report…”

  86. Gfaetheblock says:

    Reposted for the benefit of Robert j Sutherland

    Filming a person who doesn’t know you whilst they are walking down the street going about their day is pretty fucking creepy.

    It is pretty exceptional that the video gives the tory the moral high ground

    Yep, still works.

    Women have a great fear of being a victim of crime, so I thought that was relevent, especially as she is pregnant, but you are right Robert, her gender is not material

  87. Robert Louis says:

    Macart at 729pm

    I agree, that article by Dave MH is very good. Perhaps it is something worth thinking of for the next WBB.

    We do need to stop falling into the nonsense agreements. The response to question of currency, is that we’ll do what other independent countries do, and choose the currency which is best for Scotland.

    No further discussion is needed, and as DMH points out, we could have the most reasoned well thought out policy in the world, and unionists and their media will just go round in circles suggesting it is wrong. So, just cut to the point, and make the point that endless arguments about currency are just infantile – no other country does so.

    Good article.

  88. HandandShrimp says:

    Given politicians’ propensity to lie, a recording of any discussion is not a bad idea. In this instance the recording and the politician’s recounting of the meeting clearly diverge.

    What happened to Jo Cox was a tragic disgrace but have we really reached a stage when our representatives are unapproachable? There is no point in saying that constituency surgeries are the time and place because Ruth doesn’t hold any.

    Ruth didn’t have to engage and clearly didn’t. The man filmed that non-engagement. There was no requirement for Ruth to even mention the event let alone resurrect her burly men lie. However, she does appear to like a drama and to paint those on the other side of the political fence as bad ass ganstas. This is not big and it is not clever.

    I would suggest that any person that meets with her has their meeting recorded. It is the only way there will be an accurate record of the event…even if the media do prefer Ruth’s more colourful version.

  89. Robert Peffers says:

    @TYRAN says: 26 May, 2018 at 1:30 pm:

    “I couldn’t hear what was going on due to the dogs barking.”

    Ah ken wha wis barking in that video – an it wisna yon twa wee Jack Russel Fox terriers.

  90. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Late looking for a National tonight none in Sainsbury’s however a large pile of unsold Expresses headline we’re doomed because of SNP plans for independence.

    They never give up what a shower of knobs.

    Sainsbury’s I bought my wine bread and veg at Morrisons I dont think you sell the National do you Sainsbury’s?

    No National no other goods purchased, bit of a Smoothpiece household rule.

  91. Macart says:

    @Robert Louis

    Something of a pet theme of mine RL. People need to get this clear. The idea of self determination will NEVER, EVER, get a fair or reasoned response from either the UKs media or the British Nationalist parties. NOT. EVER.

    No idea. No project. No initiative, however reasonable, however effective, however much needed (as now) will be heard if the source is either the current Scottish government or the YES movement.

    Now, the SNP can be more assertive and certainly more imaginative in their responses, but they are bound by office and protocol to a certain extent. WE. ARE. NOT.

    No more horseshit currency questions. In point of fact no more answering questions period. We ask the questions. They have a lot to answer and a lot to answer for. They chin us on currency? We say it’ll be whatever we feel like and whatever is appropriate. Now about your epic debt and deficit. Who is underwriting that and with what? Why should people fit the bill for Westminster government’s epic screw up? Why should we put our trust in you? Haven’t you utterly fucked up the economy? Haven’t you driven a coach through the devolution settlement? Haven’t you betrayed the Good Friday agreement and the people NI’s peace process? And, and, and.

    You get the drift.

    As I say, our government may have to play the game to a certain extent, but we don’t.

    We’ve done patient and reasonable. This time out? Let’s leave patience in the drawer.

  92. Graeme says:

    Does it really matter if the guy should or shouldn’t have followed her and asked her a question and filmed her, she’s a public figure it happens, she should be equipped to deal with it, god knows she’s paid well enough.

    The issue here is she lied about it, he didn’t shout Indy slogans and there was no barking dogs, the woman is a fucking liar

  93. Clootie says:

    …that wee dug did not deserve the insult dealt by the colonel.
    “…as his dogs barked” where was the other one?

    Never mind Ruthie the BBC will splice in a clip from the hounds of the Baskerville for you!

  94. Valerie says:


    What? Am I understanding you right? You think Davidson has the moral high ground in this episode? A bare faced lie she took to Twitter about, which was no doubt designed as some type of provocation.

    What does fear of crime have to do with this, or the fact she is pregnant? She was in the vicinity of her workplace,and if she is not fit to fulfil her role she shouldn’t be at work.

  95. Gfaetheblock says:


    Would you be happy with a stranger videoing you as he accosts you in the street? I wouldn’t.

    I stated that ruth’s gender is irreverent, but all politicians are now living in a post Jo Cox age, and this behaviour is not acceptable.

  96. Graeme says:

    According to the WFI tweet it’s abuse to follow a WOMAN down the street, demand her attention and film her, so as they stress WOMAN here presumably it would have been perfectly OK if it was say Carlaw Jackson, because he a male, so according to WFI female politicians are to be treated differently from male politicians.

    And I thought they were all for gender equality, glad that’s cleared up

  97. wee bud says:

    If he didn’t film it you’re version might have been headline news.. So nobody is to ask her a question because a British Nationalists murdered an MP!.. Well she is pretty much untouchable then as the msm won’t do their jobs.. But don’t let that stop you talking pish..

  98. Ken500 says:

    She should be pleased. It’s not long since no one recognised her. Or knew who she is. Most people still don’t.

  99. K1 says:

    The point is she isn’t some random stranger is she Gfae?

    ‘Would you be happy with a stranger videoing you as he accosts you in the street? I wouldn’t.’

    She’s the branch manager of the Tories in Scotland and is a public figure. The guy made it pretty obvious that he was going to ask her about a political issue?

    Seeing as you are dramatising the ‘fearful’ aspect, could I just balance that out with a just as likely scenario, if he’d in any way in a crowded scene such as it was, had gone to attack her I’d imagine a whole bunch of people would have stepped in. We have ‘form’ with that scenario in Scotland.

    The reality is Gfae, it’s sneaky the way you go about on these threads wi yer subtle little digs and naysaying. Then throw yer wee hauns up ‘who me? I ‘never’ said ‘that’. But you infer so much don’t ya 😉

  100. Meindevon says:


    If that had been a Tory supporter would she still have walked quicker and away from him? She was surrounded by colleagues/bodyguards. She is a politician and a public figure. It is her job to engage with the public.

    If she was on her own in a non public situation then the filming might have been a bit off. If he hadn’t fined it RDs tweet just might have had the Police knocking on his door.

    However, rightly or wrongly, the filming has shown her up to be a liar and trying to smear a member of the public mainly I guess because he was a ‘nasty nat’ In her opinion.

    Can you imagine if NS had done the same to a Tory supporter? It would be on the ten o’clock news as a headliner how she lied and distorted the truth.

  101. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Gfaetheblock @ 20:08, 21:30,

    Repeating the same nonsense verbatim on the Goebbels principle (and in italics even!) doesn’t make it any more correct or convincing. The only sensible thing you appended is that her gender has nothing to do with it, even though you just couldn’t resist also mentioning her pregnancy. As if it makes her some kind of lesser person? Are you living in some kind of JaneAustenLand? =faint= =swoon=

    (Have you never heard that the most dangerous of any species is the child-bearing female?)

    And why then also bring up Jo Cox? That underhand attempt at insidious guilt-by-association is truly reprehensible.

    You just jumped the shark there, Mr. Shining Knight defender of The Great Tank Commander. Keep it up, you’re doing a great job of revealing the true shallow nature of the typical BritNat mindset.

  102. twathater says:

    This example of this disgusting individuals ability to lie and distort any situation in an attempt to appear above reproach is only permitted by the msm’s collective collusion in not exposing her propensity to lie and deliberately manufacture distortions and misinformation .

    The Scottish MSM and broadcasters in Scotland are the real Tractors and quis**ngs within Scotland , their failure to expose these lying manipulative charlatans of all parties , only intent on keeping Scotland shackled and chained to a greedy corrupt amoral cabal of shysters is more treasonous than the supporters of these scum

    The Scottish MSM and broadcasters in Scotland will not be forgiven for betraying their people and country

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, she says her name is Ruth Davidson, I wonder what it really is?

  104. Gfaetheblock says:

    I am no fan of Ruth, think she is pretty effective politician, but I have never voted Tory in 25 years in never missing a vote and not planning to any time soon.

    Just think it is really odd that filming and shouting questions at folk in public who are not making public appearances is deemed acceptable in today’s Scotland. Bonkers.

    Guess that makes me a sexist, britnat, nazi, Tory defending naysaying dramatist. Soz.

  105. K1 says:

    I mean there is precedent wrt to MSP’s and MP’s being ‘accosted’ on our streets, here’s Ian Grey in the ‘killing fields of Union Street’:

    I’m all for the public asking our MSP’s and MP’s questions out in the streets, suren’I approached Patrick Grady in the street before GE17 and asked a few questions masel’

    If the attitude so often spouted by those defending the rights of free speech and ‘our way of life’ after the ‘horrific’ event of MP Jo Cox is that ‘we won’ t stop living our life and going about our business because then we are giving into to fear, which is what these ‘acts’ are about’ etc then surely we must still be able to approach our politicians in the streets?

    Some people want it ‘both ways’. Ye either believe that we continue as ‘normal’, on the back of Jo Cox tragedy i.e. people questioning their politicians ‘in the streets’ has being going on for generations. Or you shut down everyone and falsely portray said incident as some politician being ‘accosted’ and how it could have turned into a ‘Jo Cox’ tragedy?

    Next someone will be suggesting that we build metal barrier around our political conferences with armed security guards and snipers on our roofs in Scotland. Cause y’know…that’s ‘real’ democracy at work.


  106. Dr Jim says:

    The incredibly unpopular Nicola Sturgeon is often surrounded by hundreds of people in the street and talks to as many of them as she can while she’s holding their babies and playing with their kids, I myself have watched her sit on the kerb edge of a pavement in her guid claes next to a bus stop to talk to a young girl with a pram, I watched her during the 2014 referendum jostled and practically accosted by a *journalist* accusing her of lying while she was in amongst hundreds of people (Carmichaelgate) I’ve seen her encompassed by thousands pressing on all sides in George Square and yet still she smiles and talks freely and openly to everybody

    I don’t see no crowd around Ruth Davidson ever except for her own burly men, then again maybe she’s worried about her magnetic personality and popularity taking off and is protecting herself from her adoring fans before there actually are any

    But I think she’s just a … lying Bastirt

  107. Thepnr says:

    I’ll give Ruth Davidson this. She is pretty effective at lying.

  108. Croompenstein says:

    Yoon cunt lies. 2014, ’tis as you never left…

  109. Thepnr says:

    Being good at lying makes you a pretty effective politician, apparently.

  110. Thepnr says:

    Doesn’t matter what your policies are as long as your pretty effective.

  111. K1 says:

    Lol Croomp 😉

  112. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Funny how these Scots Tories can have auditory hallucinations about barking dugs. Yet they are deaf to the sound of the metaphorical thin ice cracking under their feet.

  113. jfngw says:

    Could have sworn that was a young Carlaw I just spotted singing on Talking Pictures TV.

  114. yesindyref2 says:

    It needs 3 easy sentences, maybe 1 to say what it is, 1 to say what it is not, and 1 to say what it can do, and what it can be used for.

    I kind of understand and support it, but don’t know anywhere near enough to do those 3 simple sentences.

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh aye, and those 3 MMT sentences need to be easy enough for even politicians to understand 🙂

  116. Meg merrilees says:

    Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

    A surgical dissection of her (t)ruthlessness , well done Rev.

    She should be ashamed of her behaviour and the lack of respect she shows to the Scottish people and their Parliament.

    Caugth the tail end of Any questions and ant answers on R4 at lunchtime today was absolutely flabbergasted when an english guy phoned in re a possible Irish border post Brexit. He quoted the ‘Declaration of Arbroath’ First of all he explained that the ‘Declaration of Arbroath’ was our statement to the French and the Normans who had been fighting us!!!!!
    then he used this section… we fight not for riches, nor Honour, nor glory but for freedom… to justify his opposition to a border in the Irish sea since that would not be freedom if there was to be a border there .

    How could someone have their facts SO wrong?

  117. Archbishop of Dork says:


    Are you sure it wasn’t Taking Pictures TV?

  118. jfngw says:

    @Archbishop of Dork

    Diddly Diddly Dee
    Well maybe
    Diddly Diddly Dee
    I’m crazy
    Diddly Diddly Dee
    It’s two for one

  119. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dr Jim @ 22:20,

    Thank you for a welcome return to a realistic perspective. The difference in reception between the “incredibly unpopular” =grin= Nicola and the ordinary-people-phobic Rude Gal says it all, really.

  120. Luigi says:

    Thepnr says:
    26 May, 2018 at 10:23 pm
    I’ll give Ruth Davidson this. She is pretty effective at lying.

    It’s very easy being effective at lying when no one actually calls you out, Thepnr. When you are protected by a media blanket. On the rare occasion when RD is exposed and actually challenged, she quickly looses the plot. Seems to be a common trait for British nationalists these days. Over-protection makes one weak, makes one careless.

    Now completely dependent on media protection.

  121. Sandy McCormick says:

    I cannot express enough how much i enjoy your posts, easily the best money I’ve spent throughout the Indy movement. Keep it coming ?

  122. Rock says:

    Some of us can say things with foresight rather than hindsight.

    Rock (13th May 2015 – “Moodievision: The Fall And Fall…”):

    “Ruth Davidson is the most disgusting and nastiest politician in Scotland in my view.”

    Thepnr (16th March 2018 “The greasy poll”):

    “Ruth Davidson is the most dishonest politician in the UK and that’s saying something.”

    yesindyref2 (10th May 2017 – Slicing the shrinking pie):

    “I have no idea why so much of the electorate actually respects Davidson, though in fairness I did before they became 2nd party and totally dishonest.”

  123. ScottieDog says:

    1) IIt recognises that a government issuing its own floating currency is not revenue constrained and can never run out of the domestic currency and thus advocates ‘one country one currency’. Taxes don’t fund government, Spending MUST precede taxes for a country with its own sovereign currency – this idea is nothing new. See Following link “Taxes for revenue are obsolete” Beardsley Ruml, chairman of the federal reserve bank of New York 1946..

    2) it does not advocate ‘willy nilly printing of money’.

    3) a governemnt with it’s own currency has the ability to put to work all resources in its domestic economy. It is not a hostage to ‘money markets’ or bond markets which would be the case were it to use the currency of another country.
    Real sovereignty is currency sovereignty

    A quick read is Warren Mosler’s “Seven Deadly Innocent Frauds”..

  124. Steffano says:

    During the 2014 ref I handed out hundreds of wee blue books to people recommending them to read the wings web site and in particular the btl comments. The info was invaluable and I think made a sizeable difference in the actual vote.

    However this site has been infected to such an extent that it’s become a situation where I would now only recommend people to read the articles and ignore the btl posts for the absolute negativity that’s now prominent on a daily basis. For long standing wingers there’s no problem as they all know who’s who on the comments , the real problem is for the courious readers who seek more info than they can expect from the main stream media ie (corporate paid shills).

    I don’t pretend to know the answer to this myself but the very fact that I feel this way goes a long way to prove that the professional sewers of the seeds of doubt on this site are having a detrimental effect on this sites ability to get the message out.

    Perhaps i’am alone in thinking this way, however if I’m not then please let it be known that you agree.

  125. Juan says:

    Ruth is the branch manager of the Tories in Scotland, because she’s the most acomplished at what Tories do best. They lie, ALL the time, about EVERYTHING.

    She’s not just a lying BRITNAT. She is a democracy denying, colonialist enabler.

    If the “Union” was a “partnership of EQUALS” then it would be acceptable and maybe even honourable to be a “Proud Scot but”. There is no, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be a Union of equal partners. It’s always been unequal, undemocratic, corrupt and inherently anti Scottish. This isn’t a Union. It’s an OCCUPATION. We are treated as England’s colony. There are no “Unionists”. BRITNATS, maybe. Colonialist enablers and democracy deniers, definitely.

    If you really want to shock a BRITNAT awake, try calling them what they are, Colonialist enablers and democracy deniers. The thing about a referendum is, you can always vote No. To deny a referendum is to deny democracy.

    Some on here will think that’s a tax harsh. A colony is defined as “an area or country that’s either partially or completely politically controlled by another country.”

  126. ben madigan says:

    O/T everybody – for anyone that’s interested here’s my view on the repercussions of yesterday’s Republic of Ireland referendum result

  127. ronnie anderson says:

    Davidson knows fine well who was asking her questions she’s seem him often enough & Dean taught those dogs Alba & Soarsa well .

  128. Juan says:

    Tax should’ve been tad.

    Time we all faced the truth and help others to do he same. Country or Colony? This is the question, regardless of what it says exactly on the referendum ballot.

  129. HandandShrimp says:


    The articles are the main thing here. They get copied onto Facebook and Twitter and elsewhere and are read by thousands and given the reaction by lots of Unionists too.

    It was inevitable that below the line would get hit by concern trolls. in earlier days we just had ordinary trolls but they were easy to deal with. The moaning and drip drip of negativity is the logical next step but it is old hat and isn’t much harder to spot. It is tiresome but the answer is to identify the posters that derail and just avoid reading their comments and responses to their comments. There is still lots of good stuff below the line too.

  130. yesindyref2 says:

    I just read “Paul Hutcheon: Labour are the main winners from the SNP Growth Commission report” and I’ve lost count of the basic howlers in it.

    I’ll have to think about that. I like putting the tax obsolescence in the definition, it’s a powerful argument to yer average punter. Low tax if achievable without reducing public service investment is a winner.

    I think the word “deficit” should also be in it somewhere.

    And yes, 3 simple paragraphs rather then 3 sentences!

  131. Confused says:

    Ever since she smirked so suspiciously on Referendum Night, I have always thought Ruth had “friends” in very low places – like she is being looked-after, setup for bigger things – she is “lucky” and gets handled with kid-gloves. This in the DM spells out what many have thought for a while – (ben madigan got the link before me, but his is in the sun)

    – the wummin gives me the heebie-jeebies – for example – about a week ago, annoyed by yet more DM pish, I tried a wee half-serious/half funny one before I kipped off … but I had a rotten night, my sleep broken and fraught … and I couldn’t work it out, then it hit me …

    – the reason was my “funny bit” was about Ruth Davidson and her BIG GUN fantasies … and here’s the thing, the “money-shot” – the PSYCHO-SEXUAL aspects of a known lesbian of “butch” type openly embracing strikingly PHALLIC imagery for the purposes of aggressive political propaganda is … REALLY DISTURBING (- am I “triggered” – is that what it means?)

    It’s like the subtext is –


    – and in the background the Velvet Underground’s “Venus in Furs” is playing and the Tory party policy wonks have “120 days of Sodom” and “Tom of Finland” mags stuffed in their back pockets … (- do NOT get curious and google for these things if you don’t know what they are – better not knowing)

    I blame the “public” schools – after lights out in these places for the young boys, it must be like “Salo” for them – and this will mess with your head, bigtime; so they grow up ANGRY and want to HURT other people, any people, all people – the upper classes all have the attitude that its their RIGHT to -abuse- people, in any way they want

    – maybe the political battleground is not about economics, or even the class war – it’s about sadism, revenge against the world – why else are tory policies so gleefully hateful – why is it not enough that they win, but all else must lose … please Head Prefect, get your knee off my back …! (Be sure to check out Lyndsay Andersons “If …” next time its on.)

    – and then all these sex scandals the upper classes get caught in – it’s always kinky stuff – how many dungeons are there in Mayfair do you think? (Idea for a black op – a crack team of Scots psy-ops open a super exclusive brothel/dungeon/casino in the swankiest part of Mayfair – while the shagging is raging, our ultra HD 4K cameras are rolling providing top quality blackmail material against our enemies … the casino on the side allows for the operation to pay for itself … the UDI of 2021 was accepted by then PM BoJo with a nod and a “fair enough” … a brief handshake exchanged with FM Nicci, a USB stick passed between them … and the real joke is that ALL the spook agencies in every damn country have been doing just this, like – “since forever”)

    Getting into the Freudian angle, Ruth Davidson has the worst case of PENIS ENVY I have ever seen. That is why she is so angry all the time – getting into politics is a great way to MAKE EVERYONE PAY … she is already insufferable as a Holyrood Also-Ran, what will she be like in the big seat?!

    Maybe the “tory grandees” are lining her up as she reminds them of their “favourite fag at eton” – and also note how this vicious rightwinger attempted to use – “identity politics” (“violence against women” / “misogyny” / “rape culture” … blah – this man is oppressing me by asking a question) – to make herself the “victim” in this affair – good job the boy taped this, or he’d have been HUCKLED – a warning for us all. Dashcams are all but obligatory these days, but head and body cams will soon be too.

  132. K1 says:

    Really Ronnie, Davidson has had interactions with the guy before? So ‘she knows’ this person? Rather blows the apart the ‘stranger’ ‘accosting’ the poor wee helpless pregnant woman in the street’ defense, dis it no?

  133. K1 says:

    Ahm almost wiling tae consider a wee bet, that she asks the FM to ‘control’ her ‘nats’ next FMQ’s or next Scotsman/Herald article? 😉

  134. K1 says:

    Someone upthread suggested that she may not have known she was being filmed, ah think there is merit in that observation, makes complete sense in light of what she tweeted about it.

    But if it also turns out she kens him, at least as a known face to her, her credibility is doubly dubious on this matter, it’s not just ‘a lie’, it’s an utter fabrication with deliberate intent to portray herself as a ‘victim’, perhaps that’s why she did not use the word ‘stranger’ in her tweet? Interesting that certain posters on here seem to have assumed he was a ‘stranger’ to her when she didn’t tweet that he was?

    Malicious intent on her part…quite a cunning stunt when you think on it.

  135. Sandy says:

    Does “Ruth the truth” get weekly/monthly cosmetic surgery on her nose?

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    Ohmigud a post on the previous thread made me look at Average’s blog, his latest masterpiece where as always he throws some impressive sounding stuff around which the dumb MSM will lap up as clueful, voices an opinion on it, then uses that opinion as the incontrovertible fact to base a whole load of other stuff on. Ironically he’s incidentally made a good justification for the “£4,100 better off” headlines that Andrew Wilson quickly distanced himself from, but that’s not the point.

    Anyway, reading it put me in the mode [1] for a cuppa tea and a re-read because it was so enjoyable the first time. Below Average has found that the median is the middle piece of data, and come to the conclusion that that was some sort of sleight of hand so that the GC could use the Netherlands to compare with.

    Problem is that he’s looking at it as a graph or in this case barchart. What he should be doing if he had a clue about statistics and their use, considering the GC’s actual use of it, is look at it as a table. Kind of like a league table. The top 3 get promoted or dance a jig, and the bottom 3 get relegated. So if you’re at the bottom of the table your first ambition is to get somewhere around the middle of the table so you’re safe from relegation. So you look at the points you need to be in the middle, and compare yourself with that.

    Yeah I know, I’m more into rugby to be honest, league football is all prima donnas and grossly overpaid nonentities.

    But anyway it seems a reasonable ambition for Scotland to compare ourselves to 12 other countries and compare ourselves not with the bottom, nor the top, but with the middle. So that if we improve out lot was can become the middle. Sounds like a song.

    Anyway, the middle, in a table, is the median. Like, man, it’s flaming half-way down, know what I mean?

    Ha ha, what a dunce below average is. Why, he’s probably at the bottom of the statistical table of dunces 🙂

    There’s another thing, he then mentions leaving off two of the bottom entries to make Scotland look good. I guess he’s never heard of topping and tailing data to remove extremes. Hint: you don’t take two off the bottom.

    [1] It’s a statisticians in-joke. It’s a bit mean really. You could almost say regressive.

    Hello Phil, your master’s voice, you reading this? Woof woof!

  137. yesindyref2 says:

    So that if we improve ouR lot wE can become the middle.

    Ho hum, tome for bed said Zebedee. Boooiiing!

  138. Onwards says:

    I can see both sides, but generally this type of thing just backfires. It’s just too easy and predictable for Davidson to play the ‘harassed by a nutter’ card. And chasing someone down with a camera in the street probably is going to make anyone slightly wary at first. Just in case they DO turn out to be a nutter. He should have known EXACTLY how she would spin it.

    Indy supporters should know this after the referendum. A side-tactic of the NO campaign to portray YES voters as lower class or uneducated thugs. Thinking of Jim Murphy’s irn-bru crate charade.. Desperate to get egged and deliberately walking into placards. Same with the vandalising billboards or offices incidents – most of them staged.

    In this case, it would be reasonable to confront her on why she has plenty of time for game shows and publicity stunts, but not her own constituents. At least we have WOS to put the spotlight on the real issue.

  139. Donald anderson says:

    Union Jack panties on fire again.

  140. Robert Peffers says:

    @Steffano says: 27 May, 2018 at 12:31 am:

    ” … However this site has been infected to such an extent that it’s become a situation where I would now only recommend people to read the articles and ignore the btl posts for the absolute negativity that’s now prominent on a daily basis.”

    Spot on, Steffano. You got it right.

    ” … I don’t pretend to know the answer to this myself but the very fact that I feel this way goes a long way to prove that the professional sewers of the seeds of doubt on this site are having a detrimental effect on this sites ability to get the message out.”

    You got that right too, Steffano.

    “Perhaps i’am alone in thinking this way, however if I’m not then please let it be known that you agree.”

    I believe that I just did.

    Here’s a wee clue for you. It they accused other Wingers of being a bullies, while they are attempting to bully Wingers then rest assured that they have been exposed as false flag indy supporters.

    I can assure you I do not get bullied by anyone. I had to fight bullies of all kinds since I was little more than a, (less than 3Lb Premature), baby.

    You either fight back or live in fear. Thing was that I didn’t just fight back for me. No one got bullied when I was around. That sill hold true now I’m an octogenarian.

  141. ScottieDog says:

    Aye I was struggling to encapsulate MMT. That’s the biggest issue. The tories framed the deficit beautifully by comparing the government deficit to your own personal finances. Easy to understand but utterly wrong. Of course sadly the growth commission have used the same framing.

    As for Mr Average’s blog, I don’t visit it since he doesn’t even understand the first principles of macro economics so the graphs become meaningless.

    The pre-copernican astronomers had some wonderful models to show the sun’s path around the earth!

  142. Nana says:

    Aberdeenshire teacher to leave Scotland after Canadian husband refused spousal visa on ‘technicality’

    Business community gives a positive reaction to Growth Report

  143. Nana says:

    Chicken safety fear as chlorine washing fails bacteria tests

    This has been going on for years
    Boots owner denies overcharging NHS for cancer mouthwash

    Brexit: a license to print rubbish

  144. Nana says:

    Former Sunday Times’ in-house blagger turned whistleblower John Ford reveals how Rupert Murdoch’s top British newspaper editor John Witherow deceived readers over the paper’s illegal raids on Gordon Brown’s bank

    Listen to Colin Kaepernick explain why he took a knee — and why it’s essential that others like him have the right to challenge racial injustice

    Seen a lot of similar tweets over the last few days. Election on the way

  145. ronnie anderson says:

    ORonnie Anderson In response to Bob’s Blog post I traveled to Dundee from my home in Airdrie as I knew there would be dissenters attending that initial meeting I wasn’t wrong Dale Handy Mike Strachan & a few friends formed a core committee to call a meeting All those Representatives who responded were asked to report back to their respective Yes groups & all Yes groups representatives were asked to attend the next meeting to widen the core committee Dale Handy by consensus was elected as Chair of the meeting . Dale then went on to explain how the lead up to the meeting came about & how he approached myself at Glasgow Green 5th May & thereby Neil Mackay re organising a AUOB March for Dundee . Nothing of significance has been organised by Yes groups in Dundee since 2014 in relation to Marches ( excluding Douglas Yes Bikers event last year ) . The movers & shakers since 2014 have lost touch with people . Bob for all he had done in 2014 has drove his Yes Bus up a cul de sac & can.t reverse back IT’S BOB’S WAY OR NO WAY . There is no place for EGO”S IN THIS FORWARD LOOKING MOVEMENT , there is to much to lose as Bob say’s Glasgow was a successful event & that experience & expertise is available to Dundee AUOB organisers , so get on board PEOPLES of DUNDEE & ANGUS . Just as a wee aside Bob has taken part in a Illegal march when permission was refused to walk from Caird’s Sq/ Commercial St/Albert Sq/Reform St & that was exercising his Sovereign Scots rights & those Peoples who marched that day in Defiance of the Dundee City Council ( short memories ) .

    Please Share on the Dundee & Angus Yes group pages Wingers .

  146. Breeks says:

    Compare and contrast the media’s mutual love affair with Davidson and the constant smearing of Alex Salmond as heinous liar over whether he’d sought legal advice about Europe.

  147. Glamaig says:

    o/t whatever school of economics you adhere to its worth reading the growth commission report as there is so much useful ammunition in there in the argument for independence.

    I’m only on page 30 so far but determined to read the whole thing!

    Don’t pay any attention to headlines or what others say, read it yourself if you can.

  148. Hamish100 says:

    bbc radio.

    “Invite top commentators” to discuss the papers and the growth commission- Guess what I haven’t read it says one yet feels able to comment an waffle. Nothing like preparation. BBC commentator -McWhitter might not like getting called a nationalist. Quick move on to the murder attempt between a husband and wife (parachutist).Now windrush. That’s it Scotland move on you’ve had your 2 minutes.

  149. Glamaig says:

    I should add – as you read it you will recognise headlines produced by journalists who have quickly skimmed some of the document and plucked out something to use out of context.

    For example this phrase ‘years 10 to 25: closing the GDP per capita gap with small advanced economies’ on page 27, may be the inspiration of a malicious headline I saw yesterday, ‘independent Scotland would take 25 years to catch up’ failing to mention its Denmark etc they are talking about, and not, as they want to imply, with where we are now.

  150. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    yesindyref2 at 1.08

    The content and the facts and figures in the Growth Commission report mean nothing to the man at the bus stop. Just the headlines in the media.

    When will we waken up

  151. Highland Wifie says:

    Well done Ireland on a vote that brings the country forward to join the rest of the civilised world in allowing women to make the most difficult decision they ever have to make. How ironic then that (t)Ruthless supports the r***e clause that forces women to forego the choice of having a wanted child. Evil is what she represents.

  152. Hamish100 says:

    and the british nationalists rule the north of Ireland with an iron fist ignoring the majority vote that they wished to remain in the EU with their fellow Irish.

  153. Macart says:

    Great links Nana and here’s one more which pretty much is the bottom line on all things EU and Brexit.

    “It is the United Kingdom that leaves the European Union. It cannot, on leaving, ask us to change who we are and how we operate.”

    Also? Neither Mr Barnier’s and the EU’s position, nor elements the UK media’s and government’s response were entirely surprising.

  154. Dr Jim says:

    Arlene Foster wants to come here if there is any prospect of Irish reunification….I’ll just let that sink in

    As if we don’t have more than our fair share of sectarian head cases as it is this Nutter wants to come here, and you can bet your muffins she won’t want to go to England where she’ll get no support, it’ll be here in Scotland where the Orange cult headbangers are just the people who’d vote for her

    Well she’s not going to think about retirement is she, she’s got a cause

  155. Nana says:

    @Macart, I posted the Reuters piece re Barnier’s comments yesterday morning on The alternative to growth thread.But I think folks might have missed it. Thanks for posting the Guardian link and of course Wee Ginger’s piece.

    Here’s a few more links for now. I think you will smile at the first one

    Ain’t that a shame, lol

    British arms exports to Israel reach record level
    Figures reveal defence firms’ sales at new high, as Prince William prepares for visit to Ramallah and Jerusalem

    For any new readers and a wee reminder for the rest of us

  156. Dr Jim says:

    The Growth commission report: Optimism?

    It’s all lovely and fine and dandy but.. it’s asking people to sit down and make a reasonable assessment of a subject they don’t want to be reasonable about

    The unreasonable people don’t under any circumstances want Scotland to be a country like any other normal country around the world they want it to be exactly the same as it is with no changes whatsoever except the ones they impose no matter how bad those might be

    Because the unreasonable people are either very wealthy Rees Moggy rich people or sectarianists and no amount of gentle persuasion or economic forecasts is going to change that

    Power over immigration may be the key to unlocking this problem because we know that overseas folk understand what democracy is and treasure and value it, but more importantly will vote for it and that’s where we have the problem because if we can’t get control of immigration to increase our population with reasonable people we’ll still be stuck with the unreasonable lot making the talented reasonable folk leave Scotland just like they’ve always done

    Result, no growth and Scotland remains stagnant, and who’s fault will that be?…. You guessed it, the SNP

  157. Weechid says:

    Given the whole “Women for Independence” stance over the Ruth Davidson street harassment debacle I am now feeling incredibly guilty. A friend and I once chased Alex Salmond down the street in Biggar. We were performing in a play and wanted to invite him to come and see it. Imagine the scene – one poor defenceless, male politician being pursued by two, rather large, middle aged ladies, waving flyers at him. We must have scared the shit out of him. When we caught up he was wonderful, took time to talk to us and had a laugh and a joke. (Although the bugger never offered to share the fish supper he was going to buy). Not once did he alert social media about this scandal. Never did he scream sexual harassment. So sorry Alex and thank you for not highlighting our abuse of your personal space.

  158. schrodingers cat says:

    Nothing of significance has been organised by Yes groups in Dundee since 2014 in relation to Marches ( excluding Douglas Yes Bikers event last year )

    agreed ronnie, yesnef got little help from yes dundee for their fife tae dundee march, but i hope that the auob march in dundee will help galvanise the yes supporters there.

  159. HandandShrimp says:

    Listening on the radio this morning to the analysis of the Growth Commission I got the impression that Tom Harris substituted a working knowledge of what the document said for a quick blast of partisan politics. To be fair he did say he was going to opt for the partisan approach. Perhaps the BBC could have secured someone from Labour with a working knowledge of economics instead…although suppose we should be grateful that they spared us the enthusiastic, amateur hour, train spotter KH.

  160. schrodingers cat says:

    re wfi tweet

    who runs the wfi twitter account?

  161. What happens when BBC/MSM try to interview some politician in the street,

    if MSM/BBC run with this Ruthgate nonsense they had better be prepared to accept that they cannot now just go up to any person uninvited and try to interview/question them,

    that would make the BBC/MSM hypocrites.


    `professional sowers of the seeds of doubt on this site are having a detrimental effect on this sites ability to get the message out`

    right back at you.

  162. Ken500 says:

    Nicola, Alex and Co can’t get down the street for talking and hugs with folk.

    The Pollsters in Ireland wrong again. Referendum pollsters well out.

  163. jfngw says:

    @Dr Jim

    Arlene Foster wants to come here

    A perfect example why we need independence and our own immigration policies.

  164. Macart says:


    Heh. See what you mean.

    I’m sad on the inside at the demise of that particular institution… honest.

  165. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Dr Jim
    Aye its telling, because if I thought my country was to be run from somebody else’s capital – I’d bloody well stay and resist the imposition of what I considered foreign interference in my country’s affairs.

  166. Footsoldier says:

    Sunday Herald has revealed new BMW Minis will have Union Jack tail lights with no opt out. I think a UJ also appears somewhere internally.

    You can see them here:

    Pity, I had been thinking of changing my elderly vehicle for a mini.

  167. Jack Murphy says:

    AndyMak said at 5:06 pm yesterday:

    “An ideal person to lead the Tory party and just as bad as Theresa Mayhem”

    NO—-another of Ruth Davidson’s Tory pals has his eyes on that job.

    NEWS from The Mail On Sunday [England]:

    Prominent Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg has bought a £5m five-storey mansion next door to Parliament. The paper suggests it shows the ambitious MP could have his eyes on the Tory leadership. 🙁

  168. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I see the article I wrote for the National a couple of months ago is going around again

    The introduction (below) is I believe the key to us winning

    “Should Scotland be an independent country?

    Why is Scotland not an independent country?

    These are not the same question. They are very different indeed.

    This is important because the last referendum campaign was dominated by the first question – a question that gave our well-funded, well-resourced enemy with a huge control of the media a huge advantage over us.

    If we want to win the next referendum we have to make sure it is fought on the second question – on our ground. ”

  169. Robert Harrison says:

    Ruthie or Woofie (which ever nickname suits the cowardly woman best) is afraid of people asking her questions she’s not got an answer to but that’s part of an msp job description answer questions of her constituents and holding only 1 open surgery in her two years in Edinburgh yet claims the snp not doing the day job that’s a red flag there come on Edinburgh central kick her out as she don’t care about you lot at all.

  170. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “How the SNP hope to avoid taking an indyref2 pounding.”

    Yep. That is how Sarah Smith introduces BBC Scotland’s online report on the Growth Commission launch.

    “SNP paints picture of a potentially prosperous independent Scotland”
    “SNP plans to radically improve Scotland after independence” or anything vaguely balanced.

    She should be sacked – and we should be calling for it.

  171. Dr Jim says:

    Yaay! for Gordon Brewer who has Andrew Wilson on his program then interviews himself as usual to provide all the answers to his own questions and not the ones Mr Wilson is there to answer

    Then Brewer brings on a couple of toadie Britnats who haven’t read anything in the report just to say Naw Nae Surrender

    Err yer BBC! Get it here aw the information you need to learn nothing because they won’t let you hear the argument put

  172. Breeks says:

    Footsoldier says:
    27 May, 2018 at 11:14 am
    Sunday Herald has revealed new BMW Minis will have Union Jack tail lights with no opt out. I think a UJ also appears somewhere internally…

    I wonder if the Mini’s come in blue to match the UK passport.

    When BMW takes the piss, they’re really quite good at it.

  173. Socrates MacSporran says:


    I see, on the Rev’s twitter feed, some are calling for Mad Murdo Fraser WATP, to be banned from staning for Holyrood, since he wins even less-often than his fitba team.

    Can we resist these calls please? Murdo is Simply the Best reason I can think of for not voting Tory, and we should keep him front and centre as a reminder of what a shower of bawbags and fannies they are.

  174. gus1940 says:

    I see that on the BBC news web site The Growth Commission Report item has attracted nearly 3000 comments.

    Knowing what the content of the majority of these would be I have not wasted my time reading them.

  175. Astonished says:

    Mr Hill @11.59 – May I second that.

    Sarah Smith is a biased british nationalist, she has no place in a newsroom.

  176. Dr Jim says:

    I guess BMW won’t be selling many Minis to Scottish people then, I mean who wants to keep fixing broken tail lights all the time

  177. gus1940 says:

    Does our adorable not so little Hon. Lt. Col. have a constituency Office?

    If so what is the address?

  178. Calum McKay says:

    Dr Jim says: 27 May, 2018 at 9:52 am

    “Arlene Foster wants to come here if there is any prospect of Irish reunification….I’ll just let that sink in”


    ROI is throwing off the final constraints of the Catholic Church as it has disregarded the legacy of union, bar the border. Meanwhile the Irish community overtakes the population of the britiish community in the North.

    Background discussions are on-gong for a reunification poll in the light of brexit. The South looks progressive and prosperous. The North looks a conservative backwater and repressive.

    If that poll goes for unification, why wouldn’t they, Arlene and her ilk will be looking for a new home. It won”t be the Home Counties they settle, it will be SW Scotland. I am curious as to why Davidson, Gove and Darling are Foster’s new best friends?

    Cathy Jameson being questioned by Gordon Brewer this morning saying she had not read the Growth Report, but waxing lyrically why it was bad. Needless to say Brewer did not pick her up on this, i.e. your asked on to tv to comment on a report, you can”t even bother your backside to read it!

  179. Thepnr says:


    They’ve gone right over the top with the Union Flag on that Mini. Not just the tail lights but on the soft top roof of the convertible and an illuminated Union flag panel on the dashboard.

    Totally ridiculous and they say it’s us that are obsessed with “flegs”. These are real signs of desperation LOL.

  180. Brian says:

    Is she now acting like the PM who refuses to talk to people or even constituents? Seems she is scared of real questions and not the crap MSM asks her.

  181. Glamaig says:

    gus1940 says:
    27 May, 2018 at 12:34 pm

    you are correct, dont bother.

    It is 99% SNP bad, mindless nonsense and abuse spewed out morning to night. The same people seem to be on there literally all day typing garbage. Its almost as if they are trying to prevent any sensible debate by drowning out any voices of sanity.

    That thread is visible at a UK level so it attracts extra levels of shite.

  182. schrodingers cat says:

    re the growth commission report

    i think we need to recognise what it is and what it is for.

    it is a very detailed and cautious budget speech projection for an indy scotland, outlining priorities and the economic figures required to bring about such an outcome. of course, all such projections are subject to unforeseen events, cf with westminster treasury forecasts etc.

    but the bigger question is What is it for?
    this document is the basis of the economic argument for independence DURING the indyref2 campaign. many of us have argued until we are blue in the face that after a yes vote, what happens will be decided by the people of scotland, that being the whole point of independence.

    but we must win indyref2 first. that is the priority.

    eg, currency, the report sets out that an indy scotland will continue to use stirling, without a currency union, and using 5 rules, criteria that must be met, we will move to having our own scots currency.

    this is exactly the tactic used by blair and brown with regards the euro. at the time, it was a sensible political tactic but it wasnt an economic strategy, regardless of the economic jargon used to explain these “criteria” or tests. what blair and brown actually meant was, as soon as the opinion polls showed support above 50% for joining the euro, then that is what would happen.

    now yes supporters may be disappointed with this report for its lack of beligerence, eg, trident, you got 3 weeks to get it out of scotland or we will stick it on ebay etc 🙂 , but we need to recognise the difference between the indyref2 campaign and the situation we will find ourselves in after a yes vote, wrt all subjects, eg, the eu, nato etc, not just the issue of currency.

    so to recap, we will continue to use GBP until specific economic tests are met, at which point we will launch a pound scots.

    bear in mind, sillars disagreed with salmonds position on a currency union during indyref1, preferring the pound scots, because he believed in was not a good political position to take, one which required the consent of westminster and allowed them to shoot it down during the campaign. BUT sillars believed that within hours of a yes vote, WM would be looking for a currency union. that will probably be the same case if we win indyref2

    look, i have never believed the bbc scare stories about scotland being too poor to survive as an independent country, with 80% of eu’s oil, whisky being 25% of WM tax take in food and drink for the whole of the uk!. the list is endless. but not everyone is convinced, to that end, we are planing the best economic and political strategy to convince the doubters and win indyref2.

    to that end, i think the growth commission is a very good start.

  183. HandandShrimp says:


    A wise move. Huge number of comments from the usual SiU posters, most of them from just a dozen or so people. From what I saw most of them haven’t even read a summary of the report much less the report itself. In fact they barely deviate from their usual rants of SNPbad or straight forward abuse of other posters. Just looking at the last 300 posts about 60 or 70 are from just 4 SiU regulars…the same people were there at the very beginning of the thread. Still I suppose it is a measure of how concerned they are that they can devote so much effort on site so few read.

    Overall the report has had good press from places like the Fraser of Allander Institute and others as a solid piece of work. I personally tend to share Richard Murphy’s disappointment that they have opted for a 10 year Sterling transition period. I understand the attraction of a transition period but I would view a three to five year period more realistic and less hostage to fortune. I also agree with the Fraser of Allander observation that there should be a clear plan for the Scottish currency from day 1 of independence. Now events may accelerate the introduction of a Scottish currency or delay it but in my experience if you give people 10 years to prepare something they will take 10 years and still ask for an extension (many of us have been there with college essays 🙂 ) So while I think it is a recommendation that is useful in that it does not require the buy in of those that are naturally hostile to Scottish independence, it is a tad conservative with a small c. A bit too “don’t frighten the horses”. I think in reality we would have to be bolder.

  184. Colin Alexander says:

    schrodingers cat

    About sharing the Pound Sterling. The SNP should come straight out and say it: this wouldn’t be full independence.

    What it would offer would be political sovereignty, whilst continuing an economic union with rUK. Be it formal or informal, if many of your economic levers are controlled by the BoE, you aren’t independent.

    Indyref: the ref question put was independence. The White Paper offered a watered down formal Union 40% shared with rUK and formal currency union, where Scotland has political sovereignty.

    If the Growth Commission Report is adopted: Indyref2 or Independence general election:

    We would have an informal economic union with rUK. So, it is misleading to call this independence.

    For the independists like me, it’s not independence; I want full economic levers too.

    Yet calling it independence, frightens off those who think and fear full independence, even though it wouldn’t be full independence.

    Let’s call it what it is:

    Political sovereignty for Scotland. Put that to the people.

    Frame the debate around Scottish sovereignty and it will force the unionists to argue UK Parliament sovereignty over Scottish sovereignty, as that is the heart of the matter.

    It will show they want UK Parliament rule over Scotland’s people because that’s the only way these people get power in Scotland.

  185. HandandShrimp says:


    Due to the clunky nature of the HYS format people tend to only read the most recent posts. I think the SiU brief is always to be the most recent post. This results in a lot of repetitive crap. The downside for them is that some Mods starting deleting repetition and off topic and the last few pages can just end up a long list of “comment removed”. Some of the SiU regulars have as many comments removed as posted. On sites like the Guardian the Mods would boot them if they had that sort of hit rate and indeed a few them can no longer post there. The Guardian Mods use IP address as the identifier so they find repeated attempts to return thwarted.

  186. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 1.22

    Good idea. Alienate and frighten the nervous Scots and make sure they keep voting NO

    I know and you know that we will continue using sterling for a comfortable amount of time after we vote for independence until our departure is signed off at which point an array of currency options will have been fully considered and fully discussed

  187. Scottish Steve says:

    No wonder she had to piss off to snooty Edinburgh to get elected. Glaswegians were too wise to her constant stream of pish.

    The media will turn her into the Tory Virgin Mary. You cant criticise her because she’s pregnant!

    All I can say is I feel sorry for the soon-to-be wean. Having a compulsive Tory liar for a mother is a terrible thing.

  188. Scott says:

    The Cheviot, the Stag, and the Black Black Oil

    Might I just say that all Unionist’s should watch and they will see how Scotland has been shafted by London Westminster all down the years,Now IS the time so lets hold our heads high and right all the wrongs these people had to suffer.VOTE YES

  189. gus1940 says:

    According to The Observe, re NI and Abortion Legislation, May thinks it would be wrong for Westminster to legislate on matters concerning Devolved Governments.

    V. Interesting as regards Scotland and its devolved government.

  190. schrodingers cat says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    A bit too “don’t frighten the horses”. I think in reality we would have to be bolder.

    possibly H&S, and after a yes vote we can be a lot lot bolder, but until then we need to be cautious. just how cautious? that is open for debate, agreed,

    but it is the cautious tactic that has got us to this point, it works. cathy jamisons main criticism on the sps this morning was it didnt involve the stuc and the unions. if that is the best she can come up with then i think it illustrates the report was pitched at the right level.

    btw, after a yes vote in indyref2, i intend to become not just bolder but down right belligerent

  191. Dan Huil says:

    Davidson is a disgusting individual – a habitual liar. She gets away with it, usually, because the britnat media, especially the bbc, allows her to. A total tractor.

  192. HandandShrimp says:


    Yes, I totally get the need to be cautious and realistic. There are a lot of variables in the world economy and a Scottish Government would have to choose their timing with care. With Trump getting belligerent over Iran, or worse start a war, oil prices could rise a lot higher. There is just as much danger in a Scottish currency initially pitched too high on markets as too low. While a high pound makes a fortnight Ibiza attractive it would play hell with our exports. So some caution is necessary. That said, I think 10 years leaves interest rates etc., too long in the hands of another economy.

  193. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Everywhere on their social media and literature the Tories are still going with the slogan “We said No. We meant it.”

    The Tories and Labour also promised during indyref 1 that Scotland would get devo max, a guarantee of continued EU membership and legislation to take away Westminster’s ability to strip Holyrood of powers.

    Four short years later and Scotland faces enforced loss of EU and single market membership and the dismantling process of the Scottish Parliament.

    The truthful and more lengthy slogan would be ‘55% said No. Only because we (Better Together) made promises we never meant to keep. Now you’ve got the exact opposite of what we promised. Ha ha suckers! But black is white. Scotland doesn’t want another divisive indyref’.

  194. Footsoldier says:

    All this nonsense about Bank of England being in control and would not consider Scotland’s independence. You think they consider Scotland now?

    Eddie George, previous governor of BoE said the UK economy has to be run to suit London and SE of England as wealth creators and he was simply being honest.

  195. Clapper57 says:

    Archbishop of Dork says:
    27 May, 2018 at 2:47 pm
    “Everywhere on their social media and literature the Tories are still going with the slogan “We said No. We meant it.”

    Yes indeed A of Dork , the independence question dominates their respective timelines and literature……strange is it not that they promote, on tap, the message that Scots do not want another referendum and yet in reality do people, in general, not just resort to ignoring things which do not pose any threat ?

    We have now reached the ‘ Me thinks they doth protest too much’ peak…..well until the next one…then the next….then the next….etc etc

    Frankly, don’t know about you, but I am getting sick of them going on about it……the way they talk you would think it was actually going to happen Wahahaha…perhaps they are trying to scunner the public by constantly harping on about it…a subliminal message ?

  196. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Indyref 2 would create divisions say the Britnats. It wouldn’t create division. The division’s already there. Between those who want democracy, freedom and prosperity for Scotland. And those who want the opposite, or are at least are being hoodwinked to go along with the opposite.

    Division is healthy in a democracy when powerful forces are threatening the continuance of democracy. Division and the subsequent defeat of the autocrats is the only way freedom can be won.

    Ultra-conservatives don’t like division. Their ideology calls for a quiescent populace that doesn’t seek freedom and control. They therefore try to beguile people into thinking division is always a bad thing that needs avoiding.

    This is the situation we have now with the Tories. While stupid blinkered Corbynites play the Tories game of hard Brexit and giving up the powers of the Senedd.

    The Leave EU project can now be seen as a scheme by anti-democratic forces to take the UK in the direction they want. In Scotland that project is to take a full on colonialist approach.

    We want division. We’re going to have another independence referendum. We’re going to have a democratic free Scotland. With lots of lovely healthy political arguing and dispute. If England really wants to degenerate into an Anglo centric version of a Francoist state then so be it. We’re not going along.

  197. Dr Jim says:

    An awfy lot of talk about a document that *Isn’t* SNP policy
    which I think is exactly what the plan is, get everybody talking about what’s not really likely to happen until we’re ready to do what is going to happen

    Does anybody seriously think the SNP are going to vote for a policy to *buy* our freedom from our Massa’s @£5billion a year, I don’t, it would be cheaper to build our own nuclear weapons and then just threaten them like every other country who wants something does

    It’s a big talky document for talky’s sake and everybody’s doing just that
    I honestly believe when Brexit makes itself clear to everybody 90% of it will be dumped and it’ll be Boom let’s get on with the referendum just like we said we would in the first place

    If that doesn’t happen the Yes movement will lose confidence in the SNP and sad to say the SNP vote will crumble and the young folk will disengage leaving the Britnats to fill the hole and apathy will once again rule Scotlands people…..unless… we don’t allow Westminster to kick the can further down the road when Theresa May says NO again, if we do we’re done for

  198. schrodingers cat says:

    I think 10 years leaves interest rates etc., too long in the hands of another economy

    so do I, as does roger mullins on todays full scottish interview on @broadcastscot. the 10 years is a conservative guess, not an upper limit.

    once again, there is a difference between the reality we will face after a yes vote and how we go about wining a yes vote during the indyref2 campaign. my best guess is it will probably be about 18 months

  199. jfngw says:

    The ‘We said No. We meant it’ with reference to a referendum has no democratic substance as the Tories have a minority of Scottish MP’s & MSP’s.

    Whereas ‘We voted Remain. We meant it’ has the support of the majority of MSP’s, Scottish MP’s and Scottish voters.

    Which party has the democratic deficit, the Tories know this but with so many friends in the MSM they seem to be able to get away with any lie.

    By next week I suspect the MSM will be referring to the ‘discredited growth commission report’, it”s how they work.

  200. schrodingers cat says:

    It’s a big talky document for talky’s sake and everybody’s doing just that

    roger mullins on todays broadcast scotland full scottish

    “you have mentioned ruth davidson and richard leonard but i would say this, it is the snp who have produced the most substantial economic analysis about the future of scotland, ever produced!. they lead parties which have produced precisely, nothing. Ruth davidson’s tory party, more than 2 years after the referendum on exiting the EU, have still not produced one side of an A4 of robust economic analysis of where the UK economy is headed. It ill behoves them to criticise people who are willing to put in the work, to address the interests of scotland, to address the interests of our economic future, when all they do is snipe from the sidelines”

    indyref2 is coming, you can have no doubt about that

  201. Archbishop of Dork says:

    A trawl through Tory twitter accounts always throws up something of interest. Stirling Tories twitter yesterday had the ubiquitous selfie of a bunch of party activists out on the streets. Including one Cllr Alistair Majury.

    Obviously the low profile phase of his ‘rehabilitation’ is complete and the Nasty Party are happy to show him off to people again.

  202. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill said:

    I presume you are being sarcastic. However, using the same question as in Indyref, asking: “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

    Is exactly something that may “frighten the nervous Scots and make sure they keep voting NO”.

    Many in Scotland rely on or will rely on private pensions and salaries from headquarters based in England paid in Pounds Sterling. These are people who may indeed worry about independence and how a different currency could affect the value of their pension.

    So, why mislead these nervous people that a YES vote means automatic financial independence and thereby encourage them to vote no,

    when a Yes vote means political sovereignty but, till such times as circumstances suit, it will be business as usual for pensions and salaries paid from UK based headquarters if we continue to share the Pound?

  203. louis.b.argyll says:

    Colin A, what’s your point? The harmonisation of pension transfers is written into contracts and legislation the world over and is easily maintained by levies, state underwrite and taxable costs to banks etc.
    Anything state-linked in the UK is already under regulation while it’s profits are still exposed to risk.

  204. Robert Louis says:

    Dr Jim at 1238pm,

    I think your observation is quite correct. Either the morons behind this union jackery at Mini do not understand Scotland, or they just don’t give a f***. I assure you, I would not have one of those if you gave it to me free, if I lived in in N.Ireland. That’s for sure. They wouldn’t just smash the taillights.

    I agree with others, it is a sure sign of desperation by the BritNAT establishment in England. Besides, whilst being built in England, the Mini and its profits go direct to BMW in Germany.

  205. Proud Cybernat says:

    Just flying this.

    During IndyRef1, BT went out of its way to control the narrative i.e. what was discussed on TV and in newspapers. (They couldn’t control the internet). There were stories where YES/NO debates were set up and the BT side didn’t even bother turning up.


    Because they wanted to control the narrative. They didn’t want open debate which might illuminate the argument one way or another. (Which tells us, incidentally, that they are afraid of the power and persuasiveness of our argument).

    They simply shut down any open debate and relied on the complicit, Unionist MSM to trumpet the NO message to the detriment of the YES message.

    And I think it probably largely worked. The NO side controlled the narrative pretty much from the beginning to the end of the campaign.

    So how do we combat this in IndyRef2 because, as sure as taxes, they will deploy the same or similar tactic second time around?

    We do the SAME thing. We DO NOT engage in public debates with them in town halls or on TV. I know this might seem counter-intuitive but it does, I think, have its merits.

    If YES refuse all TV appearances, town hall debates etc, refuse to answer MSM questions then it deprives them of oxygen for the fire they will try and burn us with. Let’s face it – the press & TV are not going to give YES a fair crack of the whip ANYWAY so why should we play by their rules?

    If the press ask a question our answer is simply: “You’ll find the answer to that online.”

    If they ask for a debate (doubtful) we reply: “We only do online debates. We’re happy to have a debate BUT ONLY online.”

    In other words, we move the debate ENTIRELY ONLINE. We totally CUT OUT the MSM Press, TV & Radio. If people want to hear our side of the debate then they will soon realise that there is only ONE WAY they can get it and that is by getting themselves online.

    And if we can bring a significant amount of people into the online battleground, we will easily wipe the floor with the NO campaign.

    I know this probably sounds too radical, probably even impractical but just thought I’d chuck it out there because one thing is for sure – we need to get a good deal smarter with the MSM in this country if we are to stand a chance of out-flanking their shameless mendacity come IndyRef2.

  206. Macart says:

    @Dr Jim

    “An awfy lot of talk about a document that *Isn’t* SNP policy”

    Pretty much. Posted as such a couple of times already. It’s a document about a possible scenario for a possible set of circumstances. Its job is to set the ball rolling on discussion and widen a few eyes in the unionist stream. It’s to show people that the SNP wearing both their hats are working on the issue of a Scottish economy. Not a UK one, but a Scottish one.

    Job done on all counts.

    What it is not, is a policy paper.

    The true fact of the matter is that all policies and decisions are subject to circumstances and events and tailored accordingly for same. What the circumstances will be at the time of requirement? Who knows? The government of the day will make the decision based on what is needed. What is possible. What is in the best interests of the population and what is expedient.

    Y’know, like normal countries (grown ups). 🙂

  207. mr thms says:

    A pity the Growth Commission Report has ignored the substantial increase in the production, and increase in the value of Scotland’s oil otherwise it would have had to mention that without it, sterling would be worth around 50 cents less against the dollar today, and is in fact propping up sterling.

  208. Hamish100 says:

    All the Spanish Immigrants -sorry expats, get their pension in euro’s . Poor wee darlings accept it greedily. Since ruk pays for oil and receives monies in US$ does that mean they are not (really) independent.

    This is a discussion document when we are independent we will choose our way and the timings.To our advantage not of others.

    Independence or hard brexit is our choice.

  209. Jock McDonnell says:

    According to the Sunday Times, we are building a solar farm in Moray.
    A solar farm.
    No wonder Scots are happier than ever, scotgov get things done.

  210. yesindyref2 says:

    I see McWhirter has taken a line I was wondering about: “Does Nicola Sturgeon believe all this? Is it just a strange form of triangulation? An exercise in confusing the unionists by seeming to adopt their own arguments?

    Woouldn’t surprise me, after all as others have said, the SNP Confererence hasn’t taken place yet.

    I’d say sterlingisation is OK for a fairly short time (foreign currency), with the new currency being set up at the same time and even afloat quite soon (local currency). That’s been my option for a long time. It gives people time to move their mortgages and debt, or the banks themselves, to the local currency.

  211. louis.b.argyll says:

    Ramblings alert..
    There will be many things we continue to share with the UK/England & Wales/Ireland for several generations in the same way we do now, not just financial services and the like.

    When England becomes a member of the EU we’ll get some progress.

    Real sharing though, allows Scotland full powers of jurisdiction over it’s share. How we save for pensions, value land, ring-fence services, manage and plan for the future etc, will be in our favour, decided by our representatives.

    Maybe Nicola has guarantees/hope that if we vote for indy before end of transitional nonsense then Scotland gets successor status. We are the Remaining half of the UK that signed into European Law.

  212. jfngw says:


    I don’t see why we could not have in effect a dual currency area. Launch our own currency immediately but allow the use of the pound whilst people still require it for transactions. Eventually we announce a date for the removal of the pound. This would allow time for the Scottish currency to establish itself.

    Obviously I’m no currency expert and this idea may not be possible.

  213. louis.b.argyll says:

    Maybe Scotland will do some good over the coming millenium.

    Contrasting and mitigating the damage done by England, on balance, over the last thousand years is our starting point.

  214. jfngw says:


    Sorry I think I have just repeated your post, using different words admittedly. I should have read your post properly.

  215. proudscot says:

    Leader of Tory Branch Office in Scotland caught out on video lying about being “followed by someone shouting nationalist slogans at her and accompanied by barking dogs”
    However, as the video shows, neither is the case. In fact she was
    asked a question in a normal tone of voice by a member of the public (who was in charge of two small silent Jack Russell Terriers), which she ignored and refused to answer.

  216. yesindyref2 says:

    @Macart / @Dr Jim
    Yes. The report had to hang together under its own merit, and stand criticism – informed criticism – from the usual Unionist “experts”. They quote our Ronnie McDonald a lot, wonder what he makes of it.

    But as our document, it doesn’t have to be ours, or the SNPs, simple as that. It’s a starting point for debate, and it is certainly getting that at the moment, not just from us.

    Basically whatever it says, it has to hang together, and get NO voters interested, it shouldn’t matter to us if it’s what we want, as long as it increases the YES vote and reaches the parts left-leaning papers wouldn’t.

    I still haven’t read it, just reading people’s commetns about it, it’s good fun!

    I hope that is what is done, it’s “the best of both worlds”. I think Hong Kong did that, and maybe Singapore, with the local currency their own dollar, but foreign currency the US Dollar, I’d have to check it out – I could be wrong!

  217. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh I forgot to say, Michael Fry liked it, so it must be favourable to the right / centre-right point of view. And we need their votes.

    And some like Kay, Hutton and Curtice reckon it might have won in 2014 (from the Hearld)

  218. Macart says:


    Again, pretty much. 🙂

    It’s job done on several fronts. Not least the idea of a Sterling zone which has been supposedly booted oot the park. If they become so bold as to ask why? Scotgov can honestly say to HMG, because you said so. That was your choice, yes? You want no part of a Sterling zone. Okeedokee, we have the ‘option’ of using our own currency anyway (it is still partially ours till otherwise settled), because we can and until such times as either a. we see how our negotiations pan out or b. we decide circumstances or opportunities suggest otherwise.

    In short? We’ll do what we have to do as and when it is required. Mainly because it suits our needs.

    Even as a hypothetical scenario, it makes quite the statement.

    Now if that idea doesn’t light a fire under them… 😉

  219. wull says:

    On a quick visit to Newry a few years ago a friend of mine told me the place was booming. Why so? Because there were two currencies on the go at the same time. The shops were accepting both euros and pounds. Moreover at parity: one euro = one pound.

    So I was told, at least. Maybe Newry folk on this post can correct me, or give more accurate information. Mine was only a fleeting visit.

    Lots of folk from across the border, it seems, were doing their weekly ‘shop’ in Newry. And filling up their petrol tanks etc. while they were at it.

    I think it may no longer be the case, and I don’t know how long it lasted. I also don’t claim any expertise on economics.

    But the point may simply be this, that having two currencies operating simultaneously did not seem to be a disaster.

    Rather the contrary, in fact …

  220. yesindyref2 says:

    Like, well, most people I think, I didn’t like it at first. But it isn’t for us, we’re YES anyway. For those YESsers who might change their vote, think of this. The SNP haven’t adopted it yet, and even if they do they’re not the only YESsers. Then if it’s a YES vote, all the other parties will jump in with their input so it could change.

    The STUC for example accepted but didn’t like the formal currency union Salmond suggested, but would have wanted our own currency as soon as possible, 3 or 4 years to get the changes we need. Once it’s a YES vote they can be more active and forceful, and the “impartial” thinktanks will have to join in without saying “Indy Stinks” or bye-bye them (and not before time).

    Then there’s the first Indy election in 2021, what’s in the manifestoes then – even the SNP could change completely from their 2018 one “material change in circumstances” 🙂

    The rUK might get petrified and push for a formal currency union, and people in Scotland would be able to see the Tories making the same shambles over Scexit as Brexit.

    It’s all to play for, and I think we can let the Unionists rant and rave as much as they want, they’re helling our cause. Perhaps our job at the moment is to smooth the ruffled feathers of those on our own side who have – justificable – concerns.

    It’s all about getting over 50% YES, then we can do whatever the “f” we want.

  221. Ken500 says:

    Irish Free State used the £ from 1923 till 1928. Then introduced their own currency pegged to the £Sterling. Punt. Until joining the Euro in 1998. They had one of the fastest growing economy in the world. The ‘Irish Tiger’. Until the Banking crash. They recovered sooner. They have better benefits and OAP and less poverty. Their economy is far better than NI. A subsidised basket case.

    Scotland has far more assets and resources than IR and starts off from a stronger economy by comparison.

  222. Macart says:



    Glad you also noticed the other thing that will have knotted a few knickers.

    The proposed date. Based on an independent Scotland 20121/22. 😎

  223. yesindyref2 says:

    I remember a load of years ago 3 or 4 of us on our way back going for a meal in Bregenz – pre euro. Not much money left, and all in different currencies. So we asked the guy if we could pay in mixed currencies and he said, no problem. We paid in Schillings, Lira, Swiss francs, French francs, Marks, and as we did he told us what was left straight away. I checked it afterwards and he was spot on, didn’t diddle us at all. So yes, it can be done, Progressive banking will help, and perhaps we can change the way our banks work, to work for us and our economy not them and a few scurvy rich dudes. In fact our National Bank could make currency exchange virtually costless.

  224. yesindyref2 says:

    Indeed I did 🙂 Seems the Unionists missed that in their hysterical need to do down Indy and anything to do with it.

    Incidentally, by 2021 the GC reckon that the so-called deficit will be down to 5.1% anyway, so the so-called austerity doesn’t need to happen to get down to 3%, just same as we are, steady as she goes. A point a lot of people seem to miss.

    In fact a linear progression from GERS for the onshore deficit before Independence goes like this:

    2009-10 – £19.9 bn – 17.8%
    2010-11 – £18.6 bn – 15.6%
    2011-12 – £18.2 bn – 14.6%
    2012-13 – £17.6 bn – 14.0%
    2013-14 – £16.4 bn – 12.2%
    2014-15 – £16.7 bn – 11.9%
    2015-16 – £14.9 bn – 10.1%

    and roughly at that rate if a straight line

    2016-17 – £14.1 bn – 8.8%
    2017-18 – £13.3 bn – 7.51%
    2018-19 – £12.4 bn – 6.2%
    2019-20 – £11.6 bn – 4.9%
    2020-21 – £10.8 bn – 3.6%

    That’s without oil. Brexit negotiations and the mess might screw that up a bit, so 5.1% should be a safe “conservative” estimate. Actually I think after a YES vote is in we’ll get a boom even before Indy, let alone after it. I can’t wait.

  225. auld highlander says:

    There’s nothing wrong with using Sterling for the first few years, the fearties would be comforted by it and that may well be enough to swing them to YES.

    They have nothing to fear but fear itself.

  226. Macart says:

    Hahahahahahahahahah (and breathe) hahahahahahaha! 😀

    Almost had a toilet accident when I read: “According to reports in yesterday’s Sun, the Tory MSPs would storm out to do “constituency work” instead.”

    Mibbies someone should explain to them…. No. No nevermind.

    We’ll be sad at such an action obviously, but folk’d struggle through somehow.

  227. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Dunoon ran sterling/dollar economy for thirty years

  228. ScottieDog says:

    This ‘scotland’s deficit’ narrative is killing me. We don’t have a bloody deficit!

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    No, it’s an “illustrative” deficit. But the GC are playing it “straight”, worse case if you like, that doesn’t mean others can’t play it the other way – there is no deficit.

    Anyways, the GC’s report show it, real or not, down to 5.1% by the time Scotland becomes Indy, and that’s not a lot.

  230. jfngw says:


    Davidson – constituency work, now there’s an oxymoron.

    Much increased majority for inyref vote then, wonder which genius came up with this idea.

  231. HandandShrimp says:

    Tories to walk out to do constituency work…Ruth, consulting MSP handbook, finds out what that entails and recoils in horror at thought of meeting random members of the public with problems they expect her to solve.

  232. Macart says:


    Also? They may have small dogs.(cough)

  233. Luigi says:

    Macart says:
    27 May, 2018 at 8:18 pm

    Hah Ha indeed – please Ruth, make my day – do it!

    Well Well. The tories have been telling us for months that Holyrood needs WM consent to hold a referendum. Now it seems they are grudgingly admitting that no such consent is required.

    So Holyrood could hold a consultative referendum after all.

    One can only hope that the tories would be so stupid. IMO after much prefabricating, TM (or her successor) will agree to a referendum after all. Theyt will try to set it on their terms(eg. no EU citizens participating) but I think the Scottish Government are on solid ground – hold fast. 🙂

  234. Scott says:

    Sorry folks this is way O/T.

    How many people knew about this the first time I have heard of it.

  235. Dr Jim says:

    What will annoy them even more is Alex Salmond’s been saying that all along
    We need songs with Eck’s name in them, they hate Eck’s name

    *I don’t like Alex Oh no I love him yeah*

    Name that tune

  236. Cubby says:

    What is there to be surprised about. Truth less is a Tory. Lying is in their DNA.

    Now a Tory who does not lie – now that would be a surprise.

    Glad to see the infestation of paid to Troll British Nationalists has died down a bit. Guess they must be having the Bank holiday off.

  237. Chick McGregor says:

    Ah yes, it’s post Ruth politics right enough but are we at post peak Ruth politics? I think we probably are.

  238. Croompenstein says:

    @Dr Jim

    Could it be 10cc ??

    I still love Sinatra singing ‘Salmond Chanted Evening’.. 🙂

  239. Proud Cybernat says:


    Great set of short films here from The Growth Commission about the future prospects and options for indy Scotland:

  240. Dr Jim says:

    And the winner is @Croompenstein 10.05pm with 10cc

    And for ten further points and a chance to spin the wicked wango wheel for the star prize

    *I love Sturgeon*

    I think this might be berry difficult (wee clue there)

  241. Cubby says:


    The Britnats must really be on holiday. BBC Reporting Scotland this evening – not one SNP badddddd or Scot gov badddddd or even a Scotland is rubbish or your education is crap or your hospitals are mince or your police are bogging or your growth report sucks or your roads and railways are the pits.

    Wish they would stay on holiday or just bog off to London like Torrance and get their rewards from their masters.

  242. Meg merrilees says:

    slightly O/T

    Re the Irish referendum on abortion rights, I hear on the news tonight that several senior tory politicians have insisted that T May changes the law in N Ireland so that women there have the same rights as women elsewhere in the UK.

    Obviously, our Arlene is not amused. The DUP is against same sex marriage and pro-life and Arlene has said that this is a matter for Stormont to decide….. but, hasn’t she more or less capitulated to T May and allowed direct rule to exist in all but name.

    I’m sure she supports the Tory stance on the devolution power grab in Wales and Scotland but it would seem Treeza is not going to be allowed a power grab in ‘Norn Ireland’.

  243. scottieDog says:

    “Anyways, the GC’s report show it, real or not, down to 5.1% by the time Scotland becomes Indy, and that’s not a lot.”

    A govt surplus. Wonderful..

  244. Cubby says:

    Scottie dog 8.36pm

    Totally agree with your comments. SCOTLAND DOES NOT HAVE A DEFICIT. Only an independent country can have a deficit. By discussing this we are accepting the Britnats narrative – all this GERS propaganda crap.

    The key point is that it is the UK that has a large deficit and a mountain of a National Debt. This is a mountain that keeps growing to heights that Everest could only dream about.

    It is the UK that should be under pressure/scrutiny for deficits and National Debt not Scotland.

  245. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Earlier this year Ruth Davidson was named among Time magazine’s 100 most influential people of 2018. Believing her own publicity, she’s now too grand to speak to constituents. Not that she ever showed much affinity with everyday folks.

    She’s a media created synthetic politician who’s touted as a big hitter only by fellow Britnat right wingers in politics and the media. If her constituents had the power of recalling her they’d likely have used it by now.

  246. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Sorry to bring Wingers this sad news, but one of our own, Jacquie Johnstone, known on Twitter as @YES2ForScotland has passed away.

    ‘Not one for putting personal stuff on twitter but just wanted to let her followers know that @YES2ForScotland passed away a few days ago, our family are devasted, but as always will continue the “fight” to gain the Independent Scotland she so passionately believed in ..Hail Alba.’


    I don’t know if Jacquie posted here in WOS, but the likelihood is that many of us have crossed paths with her and her family/friends over the last few years.

    Farewell JJ.

    Slainte to her family and friends – many of us will think about youse next Saturday as we walk through Dumfries.

  247. Dr Jim says:

    Good old Arlene Foster eh *I want to be the same as my beloved UK..But not*

    Tough for Arlene eh, Dinosaurs did rule the earth and the world didnae start wae some rain and Noah and his magic Zoo Boat

    Her world must be crashing round about her, still she’s got her big drum tae bang

  248. yesindyref2 says:

    In memory of the 1 year anniversary of the sad death of a YESser, one I had a few blethers with, en EU fan as well. Today they were unveiling a slate bench and table from a fund which reached nearly £1,200, which I’ll be sitting on to have a fag next time I’m there, was there yesterday but unable to stay on for today though I did think of it.

    Bill will be reunited with his wife who passed on a few years before him.

  249. ScottieDog says:

    As I have commented so many times to people who talk about our deficit, “show me where I can buy Scottish bonds”. They can’t because we can’t borrow.

    The narrative we should also be talking about is Assets and Liabilities. The biggest real asset the U.K. ever had was Scotland’s oil. The biggest ever liability was the city of London.
    We nothing. If anything we are owed.

  250. Meindevon says:

    Well if the Tories are going to walk out of Holyrood then I think the snp MPs should get in first and walk out of Westminster when (if) they refuse a second Indy ref. ‘The Tories told us we could! ‘


  251. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Sad news –

    ‘Not one for putting personal stuff on twitter but just wanted to let her followers know that @YES2ForScotland passed away a few days ago, our family are devasted, but as always will continue the “fight” to gain the Independent Scotland she so passionately believed in…’

    copied from Tweet by @scotsmum1966

  252. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    A lot of good comments in the thread throughout today. s-cat @ 12:59 is right, the Growth Report is not for the already-convinced, it’s for the cautiously persuadeable. Once we get independence, all bets are off. We’ll stretch once we’re free of the shackles, and do it in a timescale and manner of our own choosing. Credible progress can only be step-by-step, not instantaneous.

    But hopefully we never allow ourselves to get sucked into a formal currency union, as rUK will be desperate for us to do once the chips are really down. That interdependency boat has sailed in more ways now than merely avoiding a previous campaign pitfall.

    Re recent comments about the “deficit”, I counsel all pro-indy reps who are challenged about this in the media to just learn and deploy a very simple retort: “it’s not Scotland’s deficit, it’s the UK’s deficit (a part of which is foisted on us by WM diktat)”.

  253. yesindyref2 says:

    And others who want the SNP to walk out.

    There are 35 of them, each entitled to put in written questions and have them answered by the appropriate minister, either in writing, or in the house of commons.

    They are also entitled to put forward motions, private members bills for the lottery. and questions for PMQ. They are the 3rd party and have certain privileges, including 1 or 2 as members of the Privy Council. They are also fully entitled to stand up to ask questions for anything, stand up to interrupt any member who ahs the floor “I want to make progress with my speech” being the reply, and put forward amendments to any Bill going through the House of Commons.

    In short, if they put their mind to it, they can make the House of Commons a shambles, even more than it is already, and not only that, totally legitimately, democratically and legally.

    Leave them there 🙂

  254. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The Peston Show on ITV is much more engaging than anything BBC puts together. Heard tonight on it about a putative Michael Gove/ Woof Davidson alliance as Gove replaces TMay. (I’m not kidding)
    Bring it on.Bring it on.

    We are now into the realms of the absurd. Despite years of continuous,relentless generous coverage Woof has achieved the giddy heights of about 24% in the polls. She may have some committed support (and they should be!)but there is no person in Scottish politics disliked quite so seriously by such a large percentage of the voting population.
    Michael Gove is a joke.

    What is really funny is that a huge section of the English electorate and – more significantly – a huge percentage of the media political class think that Woof is popular in Scotland.

  255. yesindyref2 says:

    @RJS + ScottieDog and others
    The thing is iScotland will be running a deficit most likely in year 1 and after, it’s usual for countries apart from Germany, even ones with their own currency. Some would say it’s neccessary, probably including me. The EU for instance have considered raising their top limit from 3%, and very much should do to encourage growth, with their stupid much-aligned SGP which cuckolds itself in favour of, say, China.

    So one way or another, Scotland’s likely deficit will be, legitimately, discussed, it can’t be avoided. At the moment yes, it is the UK’s deficit not Scotland’s, but the whole point of Indy, I guess you could say, is to have our very own deficit, it will be ours, all ours, at last 🙂

  256. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 27 May, 2018 at 9:29 am:

    “The content and the facts and figures in the Growth Commission report mean nothing to the man at the bus stop. Just the headlines in the media.
    When will we waken up.”

    Just a though, Dave, but I know for certain that some of those guys at the bus stop you seem to think are all semi-numerate and perhaps semi-literate are not nearly so dumb as you appear to imagine.

    Furthermore, many of them are ready to be better informed if the approach is right and not too condescending.

  257. Hamish100 says:

    re Northern Ireland- there is no devolution.
    It has direct rule which the loyal DUP love. Well until they think they might have to be brought in the 21st Century, now they want devo.

    Looks like May has one more headache over and above Gove, Johnston, rees -mogg

    for us the choice must be Independence over brexit

  258. Colin Alexander says:

    louis.b.argyll says:
    27 May, 2018 at 5:07 pm

    “Colin A, what’s your point?”

    If what will be suggested, is continued economic integration ( and probably shared institutions for x number of years), it doesn’t make sense to ask if Scotland should be an independent country, cos the country won’t be independent for an unspecified amount of years. So, if there is a referendum. ( I prefer election manifesto):

    We should ask:

    Referendum on Scotland’s political independence
    Vote only once by putting an x in the box next to your choice.

    Should Scotland be ruled by an independent Scottish Parliament or UK Parliament?

    An independent Scottish parliament x

    UK Parliament

  259. TheWasp says:


    Looking for some info from the knowledgeable.

    I was listening to 6 music most of the day coming from Belfast. The presenters were raving about the Titanic exhibition, the Titanic slipway complex for arts and the Game of Thrones film studio, as well as regeneration throughout the city.

    As Norn Iron is an economic basket case, I was wondering who paid for all this lovely stuff. Was it European money, or from their Barnett grant or did Scotland pay for it like we seem to pay for everything else?

  260. Still Positive says:

    I have just spent a very happy hour or so on FB watching Mhairi Black with the London taxi driver as well as her maiden speech. Totally uplifting.

    Also my youngest grand-daughter, aged 14 months, has visited her first beach on the white sands of Morar.

  261. Cubby says:

    Yesindyref2 11.46

    You say iscotland “will be running a deficit”. The point is that is your forecast it is not a given fact. Opening up this discussion just gives the Britnats the opportunity to spout their £15 billion annual deficit crap. Scotland does not have a deficit now and has not got any national debt. That should be the message.

    I agree that it will be the choice of an independent Scottish gov to decide economic policy. That is part and parcel of being independent.

  262. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 11.37
    Exactly….. They can create the chaos that Westminster were terrified they would do in 2015.
    When they start to mess with Indy Ref 2, Scottish MPs should take “it “ to Westminster
    This will also have more of an effect now because of Brexit, than it would have back then!
    In 2015 it would have looked petty, but not when Westminster is doing it’s upmost to interfere with Scotland’s democratic process
    Also the Tories run the risk of another 57, mibbi even 57+ if they have a General Election !
    Our MPs should only Withdraw when Scotland has voted (one way or another) for Indy.

    I just wish the N.Irish MPs (if there was another General Election) would wake up and put into their Manifesto, that, should there be a border poll called, they will take there seats for the duration of the Campaign….. I understand why the currently don’t, but in the lead up to reunification, being members of the awkward squad, could work for them too!

  263. Liz g says:

    Iain Brotherhood @ 11.31
    Sad news indeed Iain, it always tuggs a bit a the heart for the ones that didn’t get to realise their dream of an Inependent Scotland , especially when we are so close

  264. yesindyref2 says:

    Not sure if this will cut and paste, but someone is asserting “How do you propose obtaining enough paper notes and coins in order to make this “idea” work on the retail level? A treasure fleet crossing the Atlantic every quarter?” in reply to someone suggesting we should dollarise (not my choice). So I did a spreasheet in an odd wasteful hour of eccentric research and got this for what’s in circulation in the UK, divided by 10 for Scotland:

    Denomination 2016 Face Value (£m) Number of pieces (m) Weight each (Gm) Total Weight Tonnes Total Volume Cubic metres 20 foot Containers Maersk Triple E class ships
    1 penny 114.299 11,430 3.56 40,691 4,808,913 160,297 8.91
    2 pence 134.273 6,714 7.12 47,804 5,649,526 188,318 10.46
    5 pence 203.764 4,075 3.25 13,244 1,565,170 52,172 2.90
    10 pence 171.312 1,713 6.50 11,135 1,315,895 43,863 2.44
    20 pence 600.828 3,004 5.00 15,020 1,775,091 59,170 3.29
    50 pence 526.153 1,053 8.00 8,424 995,564 33,185 1.84
    £1 1,671.33 1,671 9.50 15,875 1,876,077 62,536 3.47
    £2 957.036 479 12.00 5,748 679,309 22,644 1.26
    Total 4,379 30,139 157,939 18,665,545 622,185 35
    Scotland 1/10th Total 438 3,014 15,794 1,866,555 62,218 4

    £5 1,910 382 0.86 329 480 16 0.00
    £10 7,789 779 0.97 756 1,958 65 0.00
    £20 42,692 2,135 1.09 2,327 10,731 358 0.02
    £50 16,508 330 1.21 399 4,150 138 0.01
    Total 68,899 3,626 3,811 17,319 577 0
    Scotland 1/10th Total 6,890 363 381 1,732 58 0

    Scotland 1/10th Grand Total 7,328 3,377 16,175 1,868,286 62,276 4

    A total of a one-off 4 Tripe E Maesrk container ships carrying up to 18,000 x 20 foot containers.

    Mmm, doesn’t look very good, nevermind!

  265. yesindyref2 says:

    As I say, it can be done both ways.

  266. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh yeah, that’s pounds of course, not dollars, it would be a bit different for the dollar, probably nor more though as their coins are different and less denominations, so probably a bit lighter in total for our needs, even including the exchange rate of 1.33 to the £.

    Lincoln Penny (One-Cent Coin)
    Jefferson Nickel (Five-Cent Coin)
    Dime (Ten-Cent Coin)
    Quarter Dollar (Twenty-Five Cent Coin)
    Kennedy Half Dollar (Fifty-Cent Coin)
    Native American $1 Coin
    Presidential $1 Coin

    so no 2p and no £2 equivalents, 25 cent rather than a 20p.

  267. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, one-third the containers for the 2p and £2, so even allowing for more 1 cent and 1 dollar, about the same, and the notes containers at 16 containers total make no odds multiplied by 4/3. Even if it does need more coins, proportionately it wouldn’t be more than 5 container ships.

    Eccentric 1.33 hours now officially OVER 🙂

  268. smithie says:

    yesindyref2…..Wtf Lol

    ok i believe you dont drink? but you either need to stop smoking that shit or cut down on your meds haahaha

    While you were doing your spreadsheet i was making a salad dressing and cheesy garlic mayo for my tea tomorrow….oh idle hands eh?

    Never mind mate, gave me a good laugh

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s what Indy supporters do to totally and absolutely demolish the baseless assertions of dumb SiU assertions, while taking a break from work, having a cup of tea, and the leftover half grainy roll of ham and lettuce. Delicious!

  270. Meindevon says:


    Yes I totally agree that they should stay. Sorry, I wasn’t clear but I just meant they should walk out at that moment of denial of a referendum. It would be a headline getting action if nothing else.

    Thanks. It was interesting to hear just what they can do to cause disruption in the HoC. I didn’t know that. They should do it. If only to antagonise the Daily Wail readership who will then demand Scotland is expulsed from the Union. Sorted.

  271. Kangaroo says:


    No real need for actual coins these days as most business is conducted electronically. We can always create an app that stores value and interacts with retailers/ vending machines etc. I am sure it already exists.

  272. yesindyref2 says:

    Conatactless is becoming very common, even for small amounts like £1.38. My daughter doesn’t even carry cash. Weird!

  273. Kangaroo says:

    @ yesindyref2

    Your up late.. it’s 1pm here.

    It makes it much easier to change to a Scottish Pound if there are no physical notes/coins. The Central Bank can store our Reserves in Gold and Silver (real money).

  274. cearc says:


    The whole of the eurozone managed to have enough coins and notes in the right places to change over on the busiest night of the year with no problems and that was changing to a different value currency and when cash was far more widely used.

    For wary older persons, it is worth pointing out that we changed to decimal currency without much problem when most transactions and pay packets were in cash.

  275. Liz g says:

    Cearc @ 4.26
    RE.. The change to decimalisation.
    That’s no quite how I remember it,in the working class Central Belt!

    The Housewives,and Grannies hated it.
    The local Co-Op … Butcher’s, Grocer and the Drapers..
    Added up accounts in “old money” and then converted it to the “new”,much too the distrust and disgust of said Hoosewives.
    Kid’s were sent to the shops with institutions no to let them do this…. But with absolutely no guidance on what to do if they did!!!

    It’s the “memory” of this,that,I think, underpins the resistance to the Euro and opens the door to the “what currency will ye use narritive” so exploited by BT.
    Even a few decades of Holidays in Europe have done little to change the resistance to understanding the value of Sterling in other people’s Countries!
    It makes no sense… I know,but there it is!!

  276. Nana says:


    This week, we have a special Full Scottish, focussing on the Sustainable Growth Commission’s report – Scotland – The New Case For Optimism. We travelled to Kirkcaldy to meet commission member, Roger Mullin to get a better understanding of what the report has to say about the future

    Glasgow 2014 baton holder faces deportation

  277. Breeks says:

    The National is saying Nicola Sturgeon is meeting Michel Barnier today.

    I’d like to think she’s also making the case for Scottish Sovereignty and demanding it is formally recognised, that Scotland becomes an international interlocutor in Brexit negotiations, and has international personality. Just a heads up M. Barnier, if you’re signing anything off on Brexit, best do it in pencil because Scotland has yet to play its Constitutional cards.

    Even if she doesn’t actually pull the trigger on actual Sovereignty, (I would, I’d have done it 2016), I very much hope she leaves M. Barnier with a firm grasp and appreciation of Scotland’s Constitutional lifeline, and sovereign aspects of Scotland’s vote to remain in the EU.

    Sadly however, what the SNP does and what I hope it does, don’t click very often, and all we’ll see at the end of the day are terribly nice platitudes and yet more forlorn aspirations and impotence.

    Prove me wrong Nicola.

  278. Dorothy Devine says:

    Nana , that piece by leftungagged is an absolute belter – well said that young lady – might I suggest to WFI that they read and absorb what she has written.

    The only thing I objected to were the ‘Ruthie poses yet again with loveable animal photos’ . Reminded me of the other liar posing with huskies in the snow .

  279. Socrates MacSporran says:


    For years, the late “Big Ian” would tell anyone who would listen: “Ulster says NO!!!” and those in-power at Westminster did their level best to ignore him.

    Today, wee Arlene says “No” and Westminster immediately rolls over and says: “Certainly Arlene – whatever you say.”

  280. yesindyref2 says:

    I should be in my scratcher but am catching up after 4 (good) days on the road doing business. And now I know the origin of that £300 billion figure for reserves for Scotland, it’s none other than our Ronnie Macdonald, in the Herlad last week. He’s always been an Independence supporter speaking at anti-Indy rallies, errr, maybe not an Indy supporter after all.

    Anyways, he’s comparing iScotland with Hong Kong, as far as sterlingisation is concerned, but seems to miss the point that Hong Kong while being pegged against the US Dollar and essentially dollarised, has it’s own currency the Hong Kong Dollar, the 13th most traded currency in the world. Don’t know why it’s so traded, maybe something to do with being next door / gateway to / part of a country with a population of 1.4 billion. Compared to the rUK with 60 million, just 4% of the size.

    Not that population is the only indicator, China is just short of 5 times the GDP of the rUK, but population would make the equivalent 300 / 25 = £12 billion – exactly the amount he says we’d get from the BoE as our share for our reserves. And Panama which is also dollarised, has just £3 billion foreign reserves, but the 6th safest banks in the advanced world.

    I’m confused but not, it seems to me, as much as he is. I think he’s an expert in Spin. Negative spin. An expert on spinning apples into oranges.

  281. Macart says:


    That leftungagged post is powerful and right on the nail. Good catch.

  282. Dan Huil says:

    The FM’s meeting with Barnier will rile the rabid britnats, which is a bonus, but the real opportunity is for the FM to further increase good relations with Europe. Europe knows by now that Scotland and England are two very different countries.

  283. yesindyref2 says:

    link to “How Ruth Davidson betrayed women”

    Shocking, and very true. All in a tawdry attempt to falsely tar an Indy supporter. It’s actual defamation.

  284. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 28 May, 2018 at 7:27 am:

    “Sadly however, what the SNP does and what I hope it does, don’t click very often, and all we’ll see at the end of the day are terribly nice platitudes and yet more forlorn aspirations and impotence.
    Prove me wrong Nicola.”

    So, Breeks, It’s SNP BAAAAD! as usual then?

  285. Hamish100 says:

    NI — the DUP didn’t have to be bought off by May. After all who would they support? Not anything the SNP would say or for that matter Corbyn who they look on as 5th columnist and tractor.
    The First Minister is playing a canny game. Each day the brexiters by their own actions are throwing doubt with those who believed in Scotland being in the uk and the EU. Drip by drip the individuals see more value in the EU than RUK and with Independences than with gove, rees-mogg and Johnston in dictating to Scotland. Even the pro-Brexit fishing fraternity are keeping quiet. Davis the great negotiator is keeping his the head down. Even ruthless the Davidson believes she is being followed by the HOUNDS OF THE BASKERVILLES when in fact she is in a party full of them. So we are going to the wire. That suits us better than the brexiters and the british nationalists of the labour party and lib dems.

    Independence first.

  286. yesindyref2 says:

    So, Breeks, It’s SNP BAAAAD! as usual then?

    Sigh. Enough already. Using that every time someone disagrees with the SNP over anything is enough to put anyone off the SNP for life.


  287. Luigi says:

    Arbroath1320 says:

    26 May, 2018 at 3:10 pm

    She disrespects her constituents.
    She disrespects Holyrood.
    She disrespects the people of Scotland.
    She is clueless.
    She has no ideas.
    She has no plan.
    She is inept.
    She is ignorant.
    She is incompetent.
    She is all about one thing … herself!

    I agree:

    She will make a perfect British PM. 🙂

  288. Ken500 says:

    Nicola, Alex and Co do everything for Scotland. Bridges, roads, mitigation of Westminster cuts, MUP, renewables etc.

    No replies to e-mails by unionists.

    Nicola does everything for Scotland.

  289. Luigi says:

    Dan Huil says:

    28 May, 2018 at 8:19 am

    The FM’s meeting with Barnier will rile the rabid britnats, which is a bonus, but the real opportunity is for the FM to further increase good relations with Europe. Europe knows by now that Scotland and England are two very different countries.

    The vacuum created by the Bexiteers’ complete lack of ideas or coherence over dealing with the EU could provide a real opportunity here for the SG to exploit. With the EU negotiators completely exasperated with exasperated by a lack of anything coherent or substantial from WM, imagine if NS goes to Brussels with an actual detailed plan for Scotland and says:

    “This is what we (SG) want to do, and in the absence of anything at all from that lot (WM), are you interested?”,

    followed by:

    “Ok, but you know WM will try to obstruct this – are you willing to back us?”

    Worth a try, Nicola. In this climate anything is possible. 🙂

  290. ScottieDog says:

    Of course we will be running a deficit year1 and if necessary year10!
    What I’m saying is we contributed far more than we got from the U.K.

    The problem is that running a defcit in a foreign currency is far more precarious than in your own issued domestic currency. So we will be restricted in what we can do to grow the economy and saying we will cut the deficit but avoid austerity is oxymoronic. The economics behind it is moronic.

    Anyway it’s hard enough to argue this stuff as it is but when your ‘own side’ are agreeing with the other side it makes it next to impossible I’m afraid. I just might get a lot more gardening done this summer. 🙁

  291. Bill McLean says:

    Ruth Davidson – a disgrace to herself, integrity, politics, the Scottish Parliament, her party, her upbringing, her former school, her former employers at the BBC and finally, if she cares – her nation!

  292. Breeks says:

    Its not SNP bad Robert, just one of those rare days with an opportunity for Nicola to throw a political hand grenade into the Brexit negotiations going on without us, and at the same time light the fuse on Scotland’s Constitutional resolve to dispute UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, all after getting a cautious amber/green light from a constructive and progressive meeting with Europe’s Michel Barnier.

    You think I’m setting my expectations too high that she might actually do it? If not now, then when?

  293. @ScottieDog

    Dinae gie up,

    it took nearly a 1000 years for the teachings of Christ to become accepted,

    he was murdered by his own people to try and shut his `truth` up,

    it`s a difficult to understand subject you are preaching,

    you are not only trying to educate the people you have also to fight the `Economic` establishment that do very well out of others ignorance,

    like Mr Peffers on the Treaty of Union, you have got to keep preaching the truth or the truth will be lost/ignored,

    keep it simple and short,

    stick at it.

  294. louis.b.argyll says:

    The efforts, costs and corruptions required by the UK to facilitate and function it’s illogical debt structures are dragging us down.
    .. Financial services have replaced manufacturing and engineering. Investors are given breaks for recklessness, creating a very lazy gravy train.

    We need houses, not mortgages.

  295. Meg merrilees says:

    Yes indyref2@8.36

    Did you mean tp leave the ‘d’ off at the end of your post?

  296. Dr Jim says:

    Just watched the FMs interview on Politico, standard stuff we’ve all heard before except for one tiny detail

    When asked about Theresa May refusing permission for a referendum Nicola Sturgeon replied

    *I have a mandate from the Scottish parliament to call a referendum over the terms of Brexit within this parliament*

  297. Abulhaq says:

    SNP stands for Scotland’s Nice Party. We actually need a party that mercilessly tears into the flabby flesh of the Union and its minions. PC & Soc.Lib. Lets not offend the neighbours stuff does not cut it.

  298. Meg merrilees says:

    Dr. Jim

    re a possible Gove/Davidson alliance for PM… what puzzles me is given the attitudes towards Scotland shown in the Rev’s recent polling, WHY would they want not one but two Scottish politicians running their country and telling them what they can and can’t do when all they want us to do is go forth and procreate!

    Headline news on the BBC is the conundrum developing in N. Ireland. Interesting interview with John Humphreys, Shami Chakrabatty ( apologies if spelt wrongly) and jim Shannon DUP on Today programme about 8.10am.

    Perfect illustration of double standards – devolution has to be upheld; wrong for WM to impose rulings, democracy is important and shouldn’t be overridden, decision for Stormont… now change the subject matter and talk about Scotland’s rights re independence/ brexit/ devolution/power grab and suddenly none of the above applies. Funny old world.

    Humphreys actually said at one point.. that WM must be careful ..” not to override the .. um.. independence of N.Ireland”!!!!!

    and it was pointed out that the DUP has double standards
    DUP/Brexit can’t go against WM as it could bring the government down; DUP /Abortion devolved matter for Stormont.

    On lesser point I’m worried to hear that the Community centre in Menstrie ( not a hugely important town) is to close. This was Tasmina’s constituency and now has a tory MP, SNP MSP and a minority SNP council Lab/Con 10; SNP 8

    The people I was speaking to are blaming the SNP for the closure – surely they are being outvoted? Anyone know what is going on?

  299. Nana says:

    Apologies Dorothy, Macart, yesindyref2 for not replying earlier. I’m in between appointments this morning, rushing about and catching up when I can.

    Apologies also to cearc, I had not seen your link to Nicola’s interview until now.

    Heedtracker if you are reading, hope you are doing ok and coming back soon.

  300. Luigi says:

    Abulhaq says:

    28 May, 2018 at 10:43 am

    Indeed, but wait for the whites of their eyes. Coming into focus anytime soon. 🙂

    The good thing about NS and the SG being so nice on a day-to-day basis, is that when they finally do go on all out attack mode, people will sit up and listen.

    Careful not to panic over-egg the pudding, as the panicky British Nationalists always do – this would only lead to people saying “here we go again!”. Far more effective to choose your moments to bite, and bite hard. Usually when your opponent is exposed and vulnerable. I am confident that the SG have a battle plan A, B and C, depending on BREXIT events. If they do squirm out of confrontation, then they will be punished by their core support. I think they know that only too well.

    The waiting game is not quite over yet. Just relax, order your popcorn and watch this space. 🙂

  301. HandandShrimp says:


    And now I know the origin of that £300 billion figure for reserves for Scotland, it’s none other than our Ronnie Macdonald, in the Herlad last week.

    Didn’t he have a range in that article of £30b to £300b? I confess I saw it on line but didn’t bother reading it. Ronald is nothing if not predictable and although Economics may be the dismal science I think Ronald is determined to take it to new levels of disrepute.

  302. Breeks says:

    ScottieDog says:
    28 May, 2018 at 9:16 am
    Of course we will be running a deficit year1 and if necessary year10!
    What I’m saying is we contributed far more than we got from the U.K

    Part of the reason it’s tricky to argue is that it seems counter intuitive. That doesn’t make it wrong, but just harder for folks like me to grasp.

    People get that deficit means debt, and debt is the bane of so many peoples lives they find it difficult to grasp why getting in to debt by borrowing is your first option of choice. Nobody in their right mind chooses to get into debt. That’s the bit that’s counter intuitive.

    If you’re in debt, you’re paying interest, and if you’re paying interest, that’s your money going to somebody else solely because you are in debt. That’s the debt cycle. Intuition says when you’re in debt, you scrimp and save until you get out of debt, and stop your money going to somebody else.

    People argue that household economics don’t apply to Governments who are issuers of currency, because they own their own debt, and print more money if they run low on liquidity, so a Government can never go bankrupt, but that sounds like fairytale talk to people who spend their entire lives in perpetual servitude to a lender.

    Even worse, if you get casual about your debts, you’re a wideboy who’s going to come to a sticky end sooner or later.

    Right now you’re telling the flat earth society that the Earth is round, and rational people are thinking that cannot be true because any fool can see that it’s flat, and apply their rational logic that if it was round we’d all fall off.

    Give me an example. Show me this working. Show me a Country in debt having more fun than out of debt Norway.

  303. HandandShrimp says:


    It is the difference between short term analysis and long term trends. Over the last 50 years Scotland has given more than it has received. Deficits vary year on year and in some years there is barely one at all. So while it may be the case that from time to time Scotland’s relative share of disbursements over receipts (although how these are calculated are problematic in themselves) might be higher than the UK average over the long term it has not been. If we had grasped independence back in 1974 say we would have been a well established wealthy wee country by now.

    The doom mongers fall upon a couple of negative years and try to suggest that this is the way it will be forever more and therefore we can’t become independent without more austerity. If the Treasury thought that this is the way it is going to be forever more they would cut Barnett and we would have more austerity anyway.

    The simplicity of the Unionist argument is, for example, “OK, the UK has one of the worst pensions in Europe but if you become independent they will be even worse”.

    It doesn’t matter how poorly the UK performs if we become independent it will be even more crap. That is why they can’t make a positive case for the Union because the UK has been mismanaged for decades and its relative performance in the EU is pretty shoddy. They can only project the UK performance negativity and add a 0 on the end.

  304. Dr Jim says:

    @Meg merrilees

    There are several councils across Scotland where the SNP are the largest party but have no control due to Tory Lab Lib dem coalitions to keep the SNP out while at the same time blaming the SNP for any cuts imposed by their own coalition

    My own council East Dunbartonshire is run by such a coalition against the poplular vote of the SNP but in our case the SNP walked out after cuts were imposed by that coalition but still the coalition council blames the SNP even though they’re not there

    Problem with these things is always the general public have little understanding of who’s in charge of what so instinctively blame the government or whoever they think is in charge, and the coalitions of chaos assist in that misconseption in every possible way they can

    Nicola Sturgeon should dae sumphin is the resulting cry from the people even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with her because the electorate are being conned by people they didn’t vote for, and the people they did vote for *the SNP* are being kept from doing their jobs

  305. jfngw says:

    Labour’s ambition for Holyrood – higher taxation to mitigate Tory policies. Their plan is actually to increase tax on the lowest rate tax payers then give them some of their own money back, then claim how generous they are.

    SNP ambition for Holyrood – allow the people of Scotland to select the party policies they want. If they choose Tory austerity or Labour taxation, then so be it.

    It’s our choice, mitigation or removal of policies decided by people from another county.

  306. HandandShrimp says:


    I should have added that although it is counter-intuitive, countries are different from personal debts whether individuals or even businesses. A country never goes bankrupt, shuts up shop and is closed down and everybody laid off from the country and the place left empty (barring some massive natural catastrophe like an asteroid strike where everybody is killed in one fell strike). A country can go through rough times like Post WW1 Germany and its hyper-inflation. However, in the end that problem was solved not by finding a pot of gold under the mattress but by some accounting nifty footwork. Put simply, they called in all the money and burned it and started again, yes with a deficit as they borrowed the pot of gold from the US. Within a couple of years their economy had kick started and they experienced a wee boom and prosperity.

  307. Labour’s ambitious manifesto for holyrood is just another con on ordinary people.

    With Westminster retaining control of most of the economic and employment levers,
    The idea that Labour at Holyrood would be able to raise taxes to pay for and protect public services and at the same time pay workers £10 an hour living wage at the same time deliver all the other promises they have been making while in opposition.
    Is pure fantasy.

  308. Dr Jim says:

    Labour in essence are no different from the Tories,the only different thing about Labour is they pretend that somehow the people count in order to garner votes while at the same time carry out Tory policies in a more underhanded way

    The very idea that people should be directly involved in democracy is as much a horrifying prospect to Labour as to the Conservatives

    British politics has always been a dictatorship but the purpose of it was always to make you believe it wasn’t or we’d still have Kings and Queens in charge dishing out Royal commands

    Having an English parliament do the same thing isn’t democracy

  309. Greannach says:

    – “Could I just ask you if -”
    – “I’m a pregnant woman.”
    – “I was just wondering if -”
    – “Bullky! Rapist! Murderer!”

  310. Meg merrilees says:


    I understand that dilemma and it is very frustrating, but I just wondered what is the real case in Menstrie as I have a particularly stubborn person in my ‘ring of aquaintances’ who blames the SNP for everything, thinks baby boxes are a total waste of money etc.. and I want to be sure of the facts before I get stuck in.

  311. jfngw says:

    Nice BBC balance reporting of Nicola Sturgeon meeting with Mr Barnier.

    Joking of course, you have the the story with quote from Sturgeon, then three negative quotes from the unionist parties (they must have actively hunted them down for such quick quotes). But strangely no quote from the other pro-indy party and larger party than one of the quoted parties.

    The only plus point was a least they named the parties rather than use the old standby ‘critics say’.

    Remember when watching Question Time, which is now almost exclusively Labour/Tory MP’s (since UKIP’s demise anyway), the second and third placed parties in Scotland, that they are using the Theresa May formula, ‘You voted to remain in the UK so you get what we give you’.

  312. Dr Jim says:

    @Meg merrilees

    When engaging with a NO voter or a *I hate the SNP person* unfortunately one of the first things you need to ascertain is are they an ideological SNP hater because they’re a Tory or are they sectarian or racist bigots, generally those things go together

    If they fall into that catagory, run for it because there is no changing that mindset by logic or reason, those people don’t want to hear it and likely never will because they’re the cult not us

    Sorry if that sounds negative but Scotland has a big problem with those kind of people who imagine the idea that some religious notion of some kind of master race type mythological nutcasery is relevant to the developement and benefit of their country, they won’t learn because they don’t want to

  313. Dr Jim says:

    Diamonds found in Scotland:

    New drilling in Scotland has uncovered a cache of the highest grade diamonds ever found in the world, appraisals are that the find is that of uncountable tons of the high grade gems worth countless billions to the Scottish econonmy

    The Labour party said the diamonds found are very welcome but are the wrong kind of diamonds
    A spokesman for the Conservatives said the price of diamonds is volatile and can go down at any time so Nicola Sturgeon can’t use this as a lever for her Independence obsession

    I just made all that up …..Sound familiar though?

    Doesn’t matter what we do or don’t do they’ll hate us no matter what and that says more about them than us

  314. cearc says:

    re. ‘Gove/Davidson alliance for PM…’

    UK govs are run by and for the benefit of the ‘upper class’. It is basically a feudal system. However, they need a figurehead who can pass as ‘of the people’ in order to get elected.

    At present the tories are dominated by very obviously ruling class people, so they need a new ‘grocer’s daughter’ type leader to appear acceptable.

    Ruthie can don the english accent as quick as a flash, she is being billed up as a rising star despite never have achieved anything or stuck by a stated opinion. She is perfect in that she will do anything/as she is told in order to be in with the ‘elite’ and she can attract the voters that want to see themselves as posh ‘cos they vote conservative without too blatantly voting against their own interests’.

    What was said about ‘a Scotsman on the make’? She is precisely the sort of proud-scot-but… that they need. A useful idiot who would be dumped the moment that she is no longer useful.

  315. ScottieDog says:

    Norway is out of debt and has policy freedom because
    A – it has a large trade surplus
    B – it has its own floating currency and central bank.

    The people of the U.K. are in RECORD a levels of personal debt precisely because the governments since the 80s have told us that THEY have to balance the books. The growth commissiion has adopted that line of thinking.

    We’re talking about the Overton window here I think – what’s acceptable and palatable as a message to people. Sadly that is very much determined by the media.

    Because something is intuitive doesn’t mean that it’s correct and we should just adopt it.
    Think about recovering your car from a skid. Think about the intuitive reaction versus what’s the correct course of action. We accepted the correct course of action as we learned to drive.

    P.s Japan has a govt debt to GDP ratio of around 250%. UK is around 90%.

  316. ScottieDog says:


    A country CAN go bankrupt if it is NOT the currency issuer. A currency issuing country CANNOT go bankrupt in its own floating currency

  317. Albert Herring says:

    Government debt = our savings.

    Government surplus = the bastards have got our money.

  318. Greannach says:

    The menacing dog owner should told Ruth Davidson he had money

  319. jfngw says:

    A party commentator has revealed the dog barking may have actually been Nicholas Soames on her mobile. Possibly in discussion about an attempted coup on the Tory party leadership. Woof! Woof! the recognised sign of approval as anyone who attended the correct public school would know.

  320. Hamish100 says:

    OT -

    The most scenic bus route in “Britania”

    Aye that’s right. A bus fae Easterhouse to Pollok is a hundred times better.

    Then the real tourist areas. Any of the Western and Northern Isles, Inverness to Ullapool, Edinburgh to any of the border towns, Galloway Forest, The Ayrshire Coast etcetera.

    Still Yorkshire (Engerland) isn’t the worst

  321. starlaw says:

    Hamish 100 1.34

    Think a little engineering has been done to achieve this result Bridge of Orchy to Glen Coe village, and hundreds more, its the votes that count , and who is counting them .

  322. yesindyref2 says:

    By all means do your gardening this summer, but for Heaven’s sake don’t give up postinig, it seems to me MMT is taking hold. From having seen none of it before, I see postings mentioning it fairly often. People take convincing and I’m a classic example of that, it wasn’t really until Thepnr said it looked good that I had a good read and being in the right mood I guess because of Thepnr’s support, it clicked.

    Not just on its own merit and for what was said, but connected to things like “the national debt” which turns out to be no such think in total, because some of it is owed to the BoE (and the other way around or something). QE by another name, which I already knew something about in “neoliberal” terms.

    It’s your persistence here I guess got Thepnr looking, and then me, and probably others, lurkers maybe. And because of the way you put it in a diplomatic way you don’t get accused of “SNP Bad” or being “pretendy Indy”, unlike poor Derek Henry who gets abused most times he posts.

    Debt is of course different from deficit, as far as that’s concerned the SNP did a historical debt analysis over 30 years for Indy Ref 1 and it came to about £50 billion, not the 1/12th share which would have been £150 billion at date of Independence.

    And in fact what would really be needed in negotiations is to appoint one of the big 5 to do a full audit and balance sheet, I suspect even that £50 billion figure was too high.

    A fair debt apportionment could mean Scotland starting, even by 2021, including interest and compound interest backdated as a refund over 30 years, or 35 years to keep the same start date, with a debt to GDP ratio of 30%, lower debt to service and lower annual costs, which would of course blow the SGC figures out of the water to the delight of everyone. On our side that is 🙂

  323. Breeks says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    28 May, 2018 at 11:47 am

    I should have added that although it is counter-intuitive, countries are different from personal debts whether individuals or even businesses. A country never goes bankrupt, shuts up shop and is closed down and everybody laid off from the country and the place left empty…

    Which kinda brings me back to the Common Weal alternative to NeoLiberalism which was to develop a uniquely Scottish economic model which didn’t just provide an alternative to NeoLiberalism, but actually went out of it s way to undo a lot of the damage and dumbing down of our traditional skill, values and standards caused by NeoLiberalism’s very narrow definition of success.

    It is by no means an easy thing to do to swim against the global Tsunami of NeoLiberal values, but if Scotland was Norway, I like to think Scotland would be more altruistic with its wealth, and attempt to roll back the loss of so many skills and industries which were once an integral part of our culture.

    Rather than measure our Country by its wealth or profitability, can’t we think outside the box to develop a more wholesome definition of success which includes the nurturing and personal development of our people and their skills?

    Just look at the crumbling stone edifices on your local High Street. Chimneys and balustrades which are in danger of collapse, fine fenestration being lost to clunky double glazing, wrought iron railings with Victorian over indulgence… We are going to start losing these buildings from our towns and cities at an ever increasing rate unless we train, prepare and mobilise a virtual army of tradespeople to do the work, and find some equally masterful way of paying for it. I promise you, the capacity to do that does not currently exist. It is a crisis in the making, but it could be crisis we might thrive upon and use to revitalise our dreadful and ever declining skill base.

    Once upon a time, and not so very long ago, Scotland built its Edinburgh New Town and equally fine Glasgow tenements with some of the highest quality craftsmanship in our own identifiable Scottish vernacular style. So many of these fine, fine buildings are now taken for granted and badly under appreciated, their significance in our heritage overlooked, and their care and maintenance seen as a burden. But take a step back and look at the caliber and richness of the materials and workmanship which were once the construction industry “norm”. Look at all the carving, sculpture, and the unnecessary richness which is still there regardless. Then go and look at a “modern” property development. Take along a hanky because you might find the odd tear in your eye.

    Look abroad to France, and Paris with its Art Nuevo Guimard Metro Stations, or Gaudi’s stunning Catherdal in Barcelona or even Casa Batllo, where the oppression of the Catalans is symbolised in the very architecture of the city… Aren’t we Scots able to raise ourselves to such creativity and optimism? Why not? What stops us? Or maybe you think Gaelic roadsigns makes a big enough statement about modern Scotland?

    Why shouldn’t Scotland think about its own modern cathedral and celebration of Scottish vernacular skills? If not a religious Cathedral, why not a civic centre or cultural museum? Or why don’t we aspire to build not just a new Football Stadium, but a whole new Sporting and Music Festival complex with our own iconic “Birds Nest” Stadium like Beijing, perhaps surrounded by a bespoke state of the art mass transit system which also boasts an integrated Formula 1 track for the Scottish Grand Prix? Don’t build it for ourselves, but our cultural enrichment and to inspire our kids. Why don’t we have a global first – a Scottish Grand Prix for electic or zero emission cars? Or maybe we build our bridge to Ireland and put a water sports marina and marine ecology laboratory at the half way point? Maybe make it a base for eco friendly seaplanes for airborne tours of the Highlands or whale watching trips in an airship?

    Maybe it needn’t be a building, but a massive Nature Reserve where we reestablish the Great Caledonian Pine Forest, and reintroduce Scottish Bison, Bears, Wolves, and Boar, and pull one back for Planet Earth where the species of animal losing its habitat is the human monkey for once. Wouldn’t that be legacy for future generations of Scots which we might all be proud of?

    When we talk about National Wealth, GDP and deficits, why don’t we think outside the box and really go for it?

  324. Orri says:

    No way to say this without playing on discredited stereotypes but is Ruth Davidson’s choice of sexual partner the result of a traumatic event in her past?

    Does she know that she’s lying when describing incidents involving men or is that genuinely how she remembers them? Thinking of the “burly men”. Are there others?

    Should we be deriding her for we lies or simply recommend she seems professional help?

    Meanwhile, if you missed the memo, Ruth is on a phased maternity leave on reduced duties. It kicks in when you ask an awkward question and ends when you sod off again. Hence she was entirely correct in her filming a pregnant woman bit.

  325. yesindyref2 says:

    In the Herald article it only mentions the big scary figure:

    For example, the best-known example of a dollarisation programme, on which sterlingisation is based, is that of the Hong Kong experience.

    The Hong Kong monetary authority runs with foreign reserves of around £300bn, a considerable multiple of what an independent Scotland is expected to have.

    @Meg Merriless

  326. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 14:11,

    All this detail is for the birds, IMO. If in order to win indy we first have to convert everyone to a radical new kind of economics, as SD and DH seem to believe, we’re going to lose. As if it isn’t enough to have one hurdle to leap, we have to have two?!

    Besides, there’s nothing that the BBC (for example) loves to have in relation to indy but a discussion on economics, in which the most dismal of the “dismal science” is turned up to 11 by a whole battery of negative think-tankers of dubious provenance. They are absolute experts at this kind of doom-laden scaremongering.

    Conversely, I was particularly encouraged by that aspect of the Growth Report which makes comparisons with other small European countries. Direct comparisons at a level that ordinary folk like me can readily comprehend. That is exactly what is needed.

    Preferably accompanied in the media, both now and into the future, by credible professionals.

    Two hurdles eliminated at one fell swoop.

    The detailed discussion over future directions in our economic development are best kept for when we do actually have the full power to implement them. In that I am with DMH. Before then we are just offering opportunities for our opponents to exploit to befuddle and confuse. Which is the only weapon they have left.

  327. Alastair says:

    This afternoon a man followed me with two dogs barking, then another man with no dogs, then another two men , then a woman , then another woman with a screeming child, then a traffic warden, then three teenagers shouting, then having walked round the block that man again with two dogs.
    Walking around Perth is an absolute nightmare. Stop following me from behind.
    Infamy. They all have it infamy.

  328. Fred says:

    @ jfngw, this would be the same Nicolas Soames, bosom-buddy of Prince Charles, who threatened Lady Di’ with a car accident some six months before she had…….a car accident! Funny that!

  329. starlaw says:

    Orri says 2.34

    By jings ! you may well be right Ruthie does seem to have a phobia about ‘ burly ‘ men. She claimed those ‘ burly ‘ men were accosting No voters outside the Annan polling station, of course there were no ‘ burly ‘ men to be found there, perhaps Ruthie was trampled on by a ‘ burly ‘ man whilst learning to crawl in the gutter as a wean.

  330. ScottieDog says:

    Cheers! No I won’t stop posting!

    Perhaps it’s not for the lay person to understand but it’s utterly vital for the government to understand this stuff.

    The government of the day needs to realise that it can’t ‘reduce its deficit’ but it can influence it by creating more demand in the economy. More economic demand creates more jobs. More jobs increase the level of tax revenue collected by the IR.

    It could easily be taught to people if there was the will about how national finances differ from personal finances.
    Of course the neoliberal view of the economy is akin to one person in a household. The decision to save a portion of income every month will make them better off. Yes true.

    But Just say there were two households in the economy and they trade with each other, (a bit false but more representative than the single household example)
    My spending is your income and vice versa.
    If I decide to spend less (saving), your income reduces. If your income reduces, you have less to spend and so my decision to save has made me poorer.

    This is a classic paradox of thrift and should demonstrate why you don’t cut the deficit but stimulate the economy. Of course you can only guarantee you’ll be able to do that by being a currency issuer. The relative success of Iceland after the bank crash should be a good demonstrator. It’s banking sector was 11 Times the size of the economy. Who would have lent Iceland foreign currency and at what cost?

    These luscious tax receipts coming out of the city of London are the aftermath of the huge government stimulus of 2008. The £s yielded in tax are simply the £s the government injected into the city as bail outs.
    Saying the SE and London keep the U.K. afloat is a bit like saying a lotto winner is self made.

  331. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, I agree, which is why the “mainstream” Growth Commission report has to play it straight with neoliberalism and even household income, and provide an acceptable plan that way. It’s the fallback and well-known default position.

    But in a parallel there can be the diverse views on MMT which can take a hold with hopefully an increasing number of people either left or right wing as it kind of removes those boundaries, but also the Common Weal position which includes MMT but in a non-scary way, though more appealing to a leftist point of view.

    The SNP during Indy Ref 1 welcomed the commenweal approach and took on board some of it, without going too far “left”. In IR2 they COULD acknowledge MMT and put it on the agenda as “worth thinking about and consultation”. But they’d have to be careful not to actually endorse it, and watch the media for their inevitable quotes “The SNP think there’s a money tree”. Well, actually in a way, there is, just chop down some sustainable trees and print more money, carefully of course, don’t want to get inflation unless we actually want some.

    Personally I think around 4% to 5% inflation is healthy, it helps reduce personal and even business debt on its own, in time, and in real terms, just keep struggling on keeping up with payments and in 10 years it’ll all be negligble. But don’t tell anyone I said that!

  332. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 28 May, 2018 at 8:36 am:

    ““So, Breeks, It’s SNP BAAAAD! as usual then?”
    Sigh. Enough already. Using that every time someone disagrees with the SNP over anything is enough to put anyone off the SNP for life.

    So, yesindyref2, for you it’s also, “SNP BAAAAD!” as usual and Auld Bob Peffers afu, “Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa”.

    Aye! The false flag wavers just have to get the drip! Drip! Drip! in no matter what.

    No one is expected to agree 100% with the SNP, yesindyref2, I certainly have not done so on occasions, but people who do so on an open form that they know is avidly followed by much of the SMSM, the UK security forces, The UK army 77 Brigade and other anti-independence people do so in the full knowledge that they are striking a blow for the Westminster Establishment every time they do it.

    If you must complain about the only hope that Scotland has for independence then go and complain to the SNP or to Nicola Sturgeon or the SG itself. Not on an open forum.

    Here’s a wee starter for you:-

    You can reach every MSP from that cite – now you have no excuse to post your negativity on open forums – or do you lack the courage of your convictions or perhaps have a rather different agenda?

  333. HandandShrimp says:


    I don’t disagree with your aspiration for more human economics that knows the value of something as well as the cost. To a fair degree you are describing Keynesian economics which is still a solid bedrock for many economists.

    The thing is economists will argue the various points over issue so if the Growth Commission has, and it does to a degree, a monetarist lean then more Keynesian economists like Murphy will take it to task for cencetrating too heavily on one side. Of course the same would be said if it was too Keynesian. The Ronald MacDonalds and lovers of graphs would be in orgasmic frenzy to explain why their graphs show that the world will implode.

    In truth, in the real world, politicians have to square the short and long term and what usually happens is a dogs breakfast of the two and countries muddle on…but I would rather muddle on in Edinburgh than in Westminster.

  334. Greannach says:

    I am a pregnant woman in Brechin and I went through the torture of seeing a menacing man accompanied by the Hounds of Hell on TV. Not only that, he wasn’t wearing a poppy!

  335. Jack Murphy says:

    “In Britain, Austerity Is Changing Everything”

    “……Britain hasn’t endured austerity to the same degree as Greece, where cutbacks were swift and draconian. Instead, British austerity has been a slow bleed, though the cumulative toll has been substantial.

    Local governments have suffered a roughly one-fifth plunge in revenue since 2010, after adding taxes they collect, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies in London.

    Nationally, spending on police forces has dropped 17 percent since 2010, while the number of police officers has dropped 14 percent, according to an analysis by the Institute for Government.

    Spending on road maintenance has shrunk more than one-fourth, while support for libraries has fallen nearly a third………”

    The Ruth Davidson Theresa May Tory Party is laid bare,and it’s not a pretty sight. 🙁

    Let’s get out of this cruel crushing Tory Union as soon as possible—-we know where our priorities lie—–with the people.

  336. jfngw says:


    Maybe, but my comment was just a parody, don’t mix it up with reality.

    Laughing at politicians (or anyone) with a massive ego really annoys them, they become like fish out of water when we don’t lie prostrate at the size of their imagined intellect.

    Don’t be fooled by those with a qualification in an area have any more expertise in another area than you do. Just because someone has a PhD doesn’t indicate they are any less likely less to have prejudices than any one else. When I was younger I worked at a university and some of the most childish behaviour I ever witnessed was between two PhD lectures that didn’t like each other.

  337. Steffano says:

    Robert Peffers @ 3.12

    Spot on Robert, this is exactly what’s been going on for some time now. It’s the not so obvious contributors that need exposed. There’s a lot of negativity in what is being said and yes it’s usually aimed at the FM or snp policy. All to undermine and cause loss of trust and plant the seeds of doubt in the minds of the unsuspecting readers of this site.

    You were correct in your previous response to me about this , take them head on and give the readers the chance to see through the mask. Good on ye old chap!

  338. yesindyref2 says:

    National finances differ from personal finances.

    It’s probably a good start if just that is used by people, even with a hashtag #MMT. Gets the word out and myabe the odd inquisitive mind working.

    As for Iceland, Fitch A, S&P A, Moody’s A3 all stable, up from the likes of BBB- by stages. Doing well 🙂

    Yes, the less we have to spend, the less others can earn from us, a reason on its own for full employment or failing that, decent benefits.

  339. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Sorry, that’s all cobblers, unless you like being cast as #CULT.

    In fact you should look carefully at your own depute leader campaigns, their articles in The National, and reports of the hustings. Hey, that’s not all behind “closed doors”.

    In a Democracy, capital D, dissent is healthy, man, get over it. Or are you the worst of the “false flag wavers”?

    Did you like that one? Well, did you?

  340. Robert Peffers says:

    @cearc says: 28 May, 2018 at 8:41 am:

    “At 9.45 live from Brussels.”

    Just watched that – again – just to confirm my thoughts about it.

    My first time through I though that the interviewer was biased in favour of Scotland.

    Then I thought, surely not? So I watched it again. So here are what are really my second thoughts.

    It was so nice to view a really properly conducted, and professionally handled and unbiased interview. Then it occurred to my I was using the term “interviewer”, rather than the term, “presenter”, that I normally mentally use when I’m considering the efforts we normally are dealing with by the MSM and SMSM.

    The guy was actually conducting an interview rather than a, usually exceedingly aggressive, cross-examination by a totally biased amateur.

    Consequentially the guy got much more information, both personal and political, from Nicola than all the SMSM numpties put together and he did it completely effortlessly and relaxed.

    By doing so he thus relaxed the person being interviewed. Yet he did ask some tough leading questions. For example he questioned Nicola about the currency issue, that the SMSM had gone immediately into overdrive with, but he got, and listened to, Nicola’s answers, the SMSM neither listens not allows cogent replies.

    The BBC and STV should tape their, (cough!), journalists to their chairs and use Gaffer Tape to seal their gobs, and make them view that interview continuously for at least a week.

    Nah! A week would not be nearly long enough.

  341. yesindyref2 says:

    Meanwhile on Planet Real, new article in The National. And by the way it DOES work on a Sunday, has for some time:

    where there’s a classic case of what is very possibly an actual SiU operative at work. Quite easy to refute now, wasn’t at first though till you get the heng of it. It’s not what’s said, it’s what ISN’T said, and the “small misquotes”. Always look at the real report to say what it actually DID say.

    In this case Andrew Wilson did not say iScotland would have a deficit “in the 6% range in 2021-22”. What he did say was that Scotland would inherit a 5.9% deficit (excluding oil revenues) in 2021-22 – i.e. that would be the deficit in 2020-21.

    It’s a very common trick of the likes of SiU to round up against, or round down against Indy, expecting nobody will notice. Well, FTFAGOS.

  342. galamcennalath says:

    Good move …

    “Scotland wary of Northern Ireland gaining Brexit advantage

    BRUSSELS (Reuters) – Scottish leader Nicola Sturgeon cited concern about Northern Ireland gaining a competitive advantage over Scotland in any Brexit deal, to press her case in Brussels on Monday for staying in the EU single market.”

  343. Dr Jim says:

    Britnats today shouting about Scotland not getting into the EU because we’d be using the £ and not the Euro
    They haven’t noticed that the UK is in the EU using the £
    or that several other nations also don’t use the Euro

    This Alistair Darling infantile argument was deployed in 2014 and was discredited then

    If this is the best they can do we can have a referendum anytime we’ve got this won

  344. Dr Jim says:

    Forgot to mention we’re back to criticising the FMs clothes and appearance and her right to go anywhere or talk to anyone

    That’s always a sure sign of panic when they resort to the *I got nothing but I hate you* rhetoric

  345. Cactus says:

    What is it with the controlling and possessiveness that Westminster May & her hounds, failingly tries to have over our Scotland.

    As they are leaving the big iFamily and we CHOSE to remain… ye’d think they’d wish us well on our new independence horizon, as they pull out and away on their merry way.

    Happy hoildaze Sunny Scotland 🙂

    T-minus 5…

  346. Robert Peffers says:

    @ScottieDog says: 28 May, 2018 at 9:16 am:

    “Of course we will be running a deficit year1 and if necessary year10!
    What I’m saying is we contributed far more than we got from the U.K.”

    Beep! Does not compute! Does not compute!

    If we contributed far more than we got back from the UK. then we were not running a deficit. So your conclusion that we were putting in more than we were getting out but would be in deficit after independence does not make sense.

    Now the conclusion to be drawn from that statement is that Scotland really has a deficit but it stems from having to pay for such as the nuclear deterrent, the proposed nuclear power-stations and southern infrastructure that Scotland, (arguably), benefits from but won’t after becoming divorced from the Kingdom of England.

    ” … The problem is that running a defcit in a foreign currency is far more precarious than in your own issued domestic currency.”

    This too is not true. The Pound Sterling is as much the Kingdom of Scotland’s currency as it is that of the Kingdom of England.

    After independence, (a divorce of the Kingdom of Scotland from the Kingdom of England and not just the country of Scotland leaving the bipartite United Kingdom).

    The Status Quo Ante is a return to being two independent kingdoms and a negotiation over the former union’s assets. The Bank of England was a private company until 1946 and was nationalised by the United Kingdom and not by the country of England. The Kingdom of Scotland thus owns a negotiable part of the, so called, Bank of England

    Furthermore, for every banknote issued by the Scottish Banks the value of these notes has been lodged in a special bank account in the Bank of England. Like any other bank account the value in Sterling belongs to the account holder and not to the banker. Now I notice an odd thing quite some time ago. I very rarely found any B of E bank notes in my actual cash notes and I deal mainly in cash. Go check your own banknotes.

    So it seems that the banknotes being used in Scotland are mainly issued by Scottish banks. If that is so then most of the cash in circulation in Scotland is actually Scottish and the value of that, (in Pounds Sterling), is held as security in the Bank of England’s vaults.

    Furthermore we need not blindly accept the Westminster notion that all assets and debits are shared on the current population ratios because Westminster, not Scotland, has been responsible for the Scotland’s greatest export commodity since 1 May 1707. That commodity, one way or another, was the peoples of Scotland. Whether they were being cleared from, (not just the Highlands), or recruited to die for Westminster, transported as convicts or left for a better life.

    So the B of E would need to allow Scots on the board, change it’s name as it hasn’t ever belonged to the Kingdom Of England or buy of the Kingdom of Scotland’s share of the assets and would, in any case need to return the value of the Scottish Bank’s printed banknote, (held as security), by the Bank of England.

    Not to mention Westminster would have to agree a proper currency union or have an actual. rich in resources, Scotland Pound Sterling causing the English Pound Sterling to drastically overheat.

    I just do not understand independence supporters just falling in line with the propaganda of Westminster. The real truth, and it is undeniable, is that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of only two kingdoms – in spite of what Westminster claims it is now.

    Westminster only dictates the rules while not enough of the sovereign people of Scotland give up going along with Westminster’s false mantras.

  347. yesindyref2 says:

    If we contributed far more than we got back from the UK. then we were not running a deficit.

    No, that’s wrong. If the UK was running a deficit of 10% and Scotland only 5%, both are running a deficit as they’re spending more than the revenues (ignoring money creation), but Scotland is running a lower one, so if we were to take an equal share of the debt accrued because of the deficit (deficit DOES NOT equal debt, I repeat deficit DOES NOT equal debt), then Scotland would be contributing the same amount to the debt accured in a single year, but only have the benefit of half of it.

    It’s what Average would incorrectly call a “fiscal transfer to the rUK”, though he doesn’t seem to know there’s no such thing as the rUK is not a separate accounting unit, nor indeed is England, and there are no actual facilities to transfer money from Scotland to the rUK or England, only the UK. Man’s a fool.

  348. Cactus says:

    Ha SO what’s the opposite of an independence horizon…

    Is it a dependence hell..

    Mibbies Chris will illustrate this, the closer we get to the cliff-edge of THAT waterfall.

    And mibbies Cairnstoon Hamish will WIN his wings there.

    Islands in the stream.

  349. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 28 May, 2018 at 9:32 am:

    ” … You think I’m setting my expectations too high that she might actually do it? If not now, then when?”

    Nah! I’d probably have Rev Stu banish me from Wings if I told you honestly what I think you are doing. So I’ll just put it this way.

    Decisions! Decisions! Decisions!

    Now let me see? Who do I trust to know more about every little facet of what is going on before, and behind, the scenes in the National, UK Union and International political scenes?

    Will it be the finest political Leader I know that exists today in Scotland, and her many teams of advisors, both party and SG, or will it be an individual who claims he knows best on another person’s, (highly successful), blog on the internet?

    Jings! it’s a tough one right enough!

    (Nah! It’s not tough at all!) – I’m going along with the FM of the SG and leader of the SNP and not this individual who thinks he knows best.

    Am I wrong?

  350. yesindyref2 says:

    Who do I trust

    Probably a leader who encourages criticism, different opinions and outright dissent, listens and reads carefully, considers, consults, and then makes her own mind up. Which transparently she does, hence the article in The National about Panama.

  351. Cactus says:

    Two things…

    1) The European Union is an international union (the World).
    2) The United Kingdom is an imposed union (for Scotland).

    An imposed union has always been bad (for Scotland).
    An international union could be good.

    Only one way to find out.

    For Scotland.

  352. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says:28 May, 2018 at 4:02 pm

    “Sorry, that’s all cobblers, unless you like being cast as #CULT.”

    In the first place you are not in the least sorry.

    “In fact you should look carefully at your own depute leader campaigns, their articles in The National, and reports of the hustings. Hey, that’s not all behind “closed doors”.

    No it’s not behind closed doors because it’s all out in the open and it will do just exactly what it is meant to do. Get the individual candidates views out before the people.

    For it will be the membership that elects the deputy – not the leadership.

    “In a Democracy, capital D, dissent is healthy, man, get over it.”

    Democracy, with or without a upper case initial letter, is indeed healthy. As is debate but you lot are not debating – you are making statements. Now there are several different organisations in the Scottish Independence movement and the SNP, (as a party), are only one of them. I’ve been a political animal around Scottish politics for a very long time and have seen several political parties rear themselves o bits and out existence. I’ve watched others go from weighing votes tom cheating to save their deposits. Mainly they do so by internal rivalry and factionalising and the SNP are no exception.

    Ask Alex Salmond about that.

    I posted a link. up thread, where anyone can get in contact with and MSP of ant party. The SG has a website as does the SNP. Furthermore, the SNP are a really democratic party – to the extent that the leadership does not formulate party policy.

    That is done by delegates at National Conference and even Nicola has only one vote like every other member. There would have to be very good reason for anyone to be banned from joining the party. So if you, or your faction, want to influence either the party or the SG, that is the best place to do so.

    If you aren’t a party member that may highlight why you are posting critical and contrary, stuff on a open forum, we already have enough of them who usually are members or supporters of non-SNP parties but they are different parties to the SNP and they are different because the do not agree with SNP policies. That is their right to disagree but it doesn’t give them the right to attempt to undermine the only party with a hope in hell of winning for Scotland our independence.

    ” … Or are you the worst of the “false flag wavers”?
    Did you like that one? Well, did you?”

    Yeah! I liked it – for it says a bloody site more about you than it says about me.

    Seems it is democratic for you and your faction, to disagree and undermine Nicola, the SG and the SNP but how dare anyone criticise you and your cosy wee faction who persistently seek to undermine almost anything the SNP/SG/Nicola Sturgeon does.

    You are wasting your time for they are all doing a fine job and everyone really knows it, (though won’t admit it and also don’t like it). What’s worse, though, is you are wasting other people’s time and attempting to undermine the whole independence movement.

    The very worst thing that could ever happen to the independence movement is the one that you seek to have act prematurely – that is to go for independence too soon and to lose the vote.

  353. Confused says:

    People rabbiting on about currency, yet again – this is a “problem” with N solutions, but supposedly there’s something unique about Scotland that it cannot use – what other people have already done … nah … our currency needs to be backed 1-1 by DARK MATTER – and stored in the gravitational halo of a black hole … maybe those obsessed by this issue are not arguing in good faith, or maybe they are “on the spectrum” …

    The growth commission report is a very “conservative” document – we don’t need to do anything new or original to smoothly transition – and remember, for the “Soft No”s – it is the fear of chaos that drives them

    – on “the currency choice as leverage”, consider this

    – FM is negotiating down in that-London with the govt wonks and mandarins … straight out she says

    – let’s deal with the currency

    – they bristle, full briefed with stalling tactics, to extract large concessions

    – you know … the pound may not be for us … post brexit we think it will lose 30-40% of its value and so we are thinking of … GOING DOLLAR … we are an oil producing nation, and oil is priced in dollars, so it represents a good benchmark …I’ve talked to trump at turnberry and he’s sending people from the US treasury over …

    – as her voice trails away … the assorted faces have turned white, jaws dropped, visages distorted like “scream” masks …

    – the senior brit coughs and says – let’s just take a recess …

    20 minutes pass, 30, 40 – there is the sound of muffled screams coming from another room

    – then Sir Badger mcTadger himself, fellow scot, eton, oxford, guards, bar – the head of the entire civil service comes in, like a smooth panther, or a V12 Bentley, purring … and he says, brightly

    – we appear to have gotten off on the wrong foot …

    Using the dollar may be only a bluff, but what a bluff and one that cannot be tested – the yanks LOVE other countries using the dollar (- its when they don’t want to use it they get pissed) – and for the bond villain bonus, in the above scenario, you can tip off a friendly Scottish hedge fund to short the crap out the pound as the -inevitable- rumours of scotland on the dollar tank its value … a few hundred million for the independence slush fund.

    In other news, the papers reporting of what was in the growth report resembled nothing like I actually read myself – imagine my surprise.

    Nice to see Nicci out in the sunshine, having a yak with the euro heid-bummer – 12 dimensional chess and political ju-jitsu – all in a smart creme jacket. We are lucky to have her – anyone who’s interested in how the comparative advantage of intelligence plays out in the political arena should try reading about the Harold Wilson years – TL;DR version – you can beat them if you are smarter as their playbook is limited. This is good for us – the top tory lineup is like something from that old Hammer horror, “The Asylum”.

  354. Sandy says:

    Conservatives pulled out of Moray council. Who’s going to sort out their mess. ‘Tripper’ Douglas Ross?

  355. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    You’re good at putting screeds of stuff together, but not good at all at reading other people’s postings. I don’t have a faction, I don’t belong to any party, I’m non-aligned, I didn’t criticise the SNP in this thread or the previous one, in fact I think Sturgeon is doing the right thing with the SGC report – welcoming it and saying IT IS UP FOR DISCUSSION.

    And unlike you she seems to welcome OPEN DISCUSSION from the wider YES movement, whereas you try to close it down, and insist everyone genuflect genuflect genuflect to the almighty SNP ans dee, speak and think no wrong of them Well, Hallelujah, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. It’s boiled tripe tonight for tea and if you don’t like it we’ll force you to eat it with a peg over your nose.

    But hey, thanks for sharpening my wits, I had fun over at The National while you were calling everyone who disagrees with you false flag fakers or something sounding like that. There was a probable SiU “agent” at work and he needed put in his place.

  356. yesindyref2 says:

    Not that I’m agreeing but firstly, the US is considering sharing seigniorage with countries dollarising, as the US makes a lot of money on printing currency to have it disappear somewhere else. Secondly if you happen to be posting this elsewhere and anyone says it’ll take a treasure fleet every quarter to bring the coins and notes over, it won’t it’d be a one-off 4 large container ships (see my postings in the middle of the night, sad person I am I worked it out based on sterling, dollars have two less coin denominations) and currency isn’t renewed every quarter, it would be a few dozen containers every year.

    Have fun 🙂

  357. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    28 May, 2018 at 6:13 pm

    Am I wrong?

    I was raised to respect my elders, even sometimes when I think they’re slavering pish.

    Sadly I have learned from bitter direct personal experience never to trust a politician, whatever their hue. They certainly don’t do altruism.

    We reap what we sow in life. QED.

  358. @breeks

    Norway has a national debt of $150,000,000,000,

    that`s a hundred and fifty billion dollars.

  359. yesindyref2 says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    NOTE The Norwegian central government is in a net asset position, i.e. the government’s total financial assets exceed the total deb

    Source: NOTE The Norwegian central government is in a net asset position, i.e. the government’s total financial assets exceed the total debt. They borrow cheap to then re-invest” (my bold)

    Nice 🙂

  360. Gary says:

    But she’ll get a friendly soundbite when any mention of independence comes up. As in the recent report that was published on behalf of SNP about Scotland’s future. On that occasion she was heard to cry “Back to the day job” yet again! While in the Daily Politics Studio we had two anti-indy voices commenting on the report and Ruth & Scotland in Union Rep were given voice via the screen. It was a four to one ratio against indy. It’s not an election BBC will say, so they’re not breaking any rules. True, except the one about presenting fair and balanced reporting that is…

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