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Truth With Ruth

Posted on February 05, 2017 by

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson a couple of hours ago:


Just a few teeny tiny issues with that one.

Firstly, as we all know by now, there was no “tax grab” in the budget. Not one single Scot had their taxes increased in any way whatsoever. Indeed, a person whose wages haven’t changed will pay slightly LESS tax this year than they did last year, because their personal allowance has gone up and everything else has stayed the same.

(That didn’t stop the Sunday Times from punting the same lie, of course – sneaking it casually into a story about something else entirely, in the way the media likes to do with things it knows aren’t true but which it wants people to believe anyway.)


And secondly, the budget was revealed on Thursday, which was the 2nd of February. But when did Panelbase ask people for their voting intentions?


Ah. A week to two weeks BEFORE the tax measures were known. And it’s not even the first time Davidson’s had some trouble reading the data from that same poll:


Because as all alert readers will know, what it actually found was support for a second referendum at some point within the next two years is currently at 50%, not 27%.


And there’s even more. Despite Davidson’s claims, the poll DOESN’T show a 3% drop for the SNP and a 6% rise for the Tories. Compared to the previous Panelbase poll on Westminster voting intention – in September 2016 – the SNP haven’t dropped at all. They’re still on the same 47%, with the Tories up just 3%, from 24%.


So that’s THREE falsehoods in a single tweet – there was no “tax grab”, the poll was before the budget not after it, and the change numbers are wrong by a factor of 100%.

Nice try, though. We think we begin to see where David Torrance gets it from.

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  1. 05 02 17 19:56

    Truth With Ruth | speymouth

  2. 09 06 17 10:42

    The Downside Up | A Wilderness of Peace

413 to “Truth With Ruth”

  1. Ian McCubbin says:

    Well Ruth does not give up trying her spinning. At least we have you Stu to challenge her stories. Seems a fair poll for late December. She still has a bit of catch up to do.

  2. jimnarlene says:

    Tories and truth, two strangers on separate trains, going in the opposite direction.

  3. Auld Rock says:

    FAKE TRUTH strikes AGAIN.

    Auld Rock

  4. Auld Rock says:

    Hi Jimnarlene, hope they are both on the same track going in opposite directions. Roll-on the sequel to the ‘Wreck of the Old ’97’.

    Auld Rock

  5. cynacalHighlander says:

    Tory def of “Work harder”

    Tell bigger lies more often.

  6. One_Scot says:

    The Tories and the unionist media are pretty much just scum. I don’t think there is any other way to put it.

  7. handclapping says:

    You’ll have had your tea then, Ruth?

    Its an East Coast thing.

  8. Sandy says:

    Let’s all go out for a celebration beer when
    Labour support drops to single figures.

  9. ElaineS says:

    I done a recent survey as Panelbase member just a number of days ago, not sure who wanted it done. It was all about views of Scot parties and leaders, Indy and EU questions. The weirdest thing was there was a list of statements which apply or none of each leader Dugdale, Davidson, Nicola AS WELL AS> Gordon Brown. Statements like “good in a crisis” kind of statements. I hope that auld fart isn’t returning to politics.

  10. HandandShrimp says:

    I don’t think Ruth actually checks anything she posts, she is an ex BBC journalist after all.


  11. Ghillie says:

    What does that woman actualy DO to earn her keep?

    Perpetual lying.

    Acts of cowardice.

  12. Roughian says:

    I wish some people (Ruth the mooth in particular) would just go and ‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡.

  13. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ElaineS @ 19:08,

    Hmmm, now that Ruthless has become somewhat tarnished by her abrupt volte-face on Brexit (“proud protector of Scotland” – not!), maybe El Gordo is being lined up as the front man for BT2.

    He has the ego for it, that’s for sure. Although definitely long past his blustering best, maybe the Tories reckon he’s still their most likely patsy next time around.

  14. Dr Jim says:

    Remind me again, Ruth Harrison is that the Brexit party woman?

  15. Dr Jim says:

    Jessica Duckdown she’s the other Brexit one eh?

  16. heedtracker says:

    A week to two weeks BEFORE the budget measures were known.

    Ruth Davidson ?@RuthDavidsonMSP 2h2 hours ago
    1st poll after the tax-grab budget. Let it spur us to work harder

    What a way to go about your profession. Shameless tory lairs, one and all.

    Let it spur us on to not vote for tory fraudsters.

  17. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 5 February, 2017 at 7:25 pm:

    “Remind me again, Ruth Harrison is that the Brexit party woman?”

    Ah divna ken, Dr Jim. whit pairty yon wummin maun be. Ah div ken she’s no the Tupperware Pairty Wummin but.

  18. Gary45% says:

    Truth with Ms Harrison,
    Now there’s an oxymoron.

  19. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    is that the Brexit party woman?

    Definitely not. Nothing at all to do with the London Tories. Completely dissociated from them. No connection. 😉

    Well, pretending that has been part of the reason for the modest increases in their fortunes.

    I read somewhere the phrase ‘fire wall’ being used to describe the way the Scottish branch tries to dissociate itself from the completely unpalatable head office. Davidson and her North British side kicks try to maintain a ‘fire wall’ between themselves and London.

    Therein lies their Achilles Heel. On every occasion everyone needs reminded they ARE the party of austerity, Brexit, xenophobia, isolationism etc etc.. They should never be allowed to hide that.

  20. Shug says:


  21. Meg merrilees says:

    Am I being ignorant – I can’t find the figures that TRuthless is tweeting, anywhere in this Panelbase poll

    However, studying the poll there are some interesting figures:

    If there was an Indyref tmrw how would you vote? 43% yes; 51% no; 7% DK = 101%

    When do you think it should be held ( 27%+23%+51% = 101%)
    Within 2 years, before leaving EU – 27%
    after Brexit – 23%
    Not in the next few years – 51%

    If there was another EU ref how would you vote? 61% remain; 39% leave = 100%

    After leaving the EU will Scotland’s economy be weaker? 41% yes

    After leaving EU will Scotland have more or less control over own laws?
    29% more; 48% much the same; 22% less =99%

    After Brexit, are you in favour of joining the EU ? 48% for – 31% against, 21% DK = 100%

    Surprised that some of the totals tally at 99% or 101%- sloppy work from Panelbase.

    Maybe (t)Ruthless might care to consider the results of the Kilmarnock east by-election as a better indication of where things are at..

    SNP 48.7% (+ 2.1%) Lab 29.4% (- 16.6) Cons 20.1% (+12.7)

  22. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    Jessica Duckdown she’s the other Brexit one eh?

    I said elsewhere today. We used to joke that the various Unionist parties were all different flavours of Tory. Now, it is beginning to look like UKIP, Con, and Labour are becoming UKIP-Max, UKIP-Classic, and UKIP-Lite!

  23. Capella says:

    Post-truth-Ruth tweets again. I wonder what was going on the week of 20th Jan. Trump? Poor economy figures released for Burns Night? Seems like a lifetime ago.

  24. Robert Peffers says:

    From what I see on-line the current, co-ordinated unionist, push seems to be to portray any thoughts of the coming referendum as going to be divisive. Which, considering it is a two answer question of YES & NO could hardly be any different than a division by two but with a smattering of, “dinna kens”.

    I don’t see it as any more divisive throughout Scotland than a GE or Council Election or answering the question, “Do you want another cup of tea”?

    In fact that last question is more divisive for some might reply, “I’d rather have a dram o Glenmorangie”, or, “Only if you put two sugars in the tea”.

    Seems they may be attempting to preparing the media for their Westminster agents provocateurs or some such. We may even have seen them here on WoS already. They can do no harm if we all keep calm.

  25. Thepnr says:

    Tories now on 27%!!!

    That to me is unbelievable, just shows you though what some will do in order to save the Union. The cry was no surrender right enough even if you have no food in the fridge or money in the meter for the leccy.

    The Red White and Blue is more important to so many. Madness.

    There is I’m afraid no other explanation for the rise in Tory support in Scotland other than support of Unionist Nationalism of the worst kind fleeing from Labour to the Tories. Yes, madness.

  26. yesindyref2 says:

    The unionist media and politicians rely on misinformation to make their case, and repeat it and repeat it.

    The beauty of this is that others tag on to their false information and even rty to defend it. All we have to do is repeat the true facts, and repeat them – with instructions on how to check it out for themselves. The hardline unionist activists won’t do that of course, they’ll try to argue with increasingly desperate nonsense. Which gives us the chance to repat and repeat again, the true information – and how lurkers or the undecided can check it out for themselves.

    The effect of this is not only to get the true information out there, but to totally discredit the likes of Ruth Davidson who rely on lies to make their case, and the media that helps to propogate their lies.

    I we’re unable to post a URL (moderation policy) I post simple instructions like:

    “You can get the full results of that Panelbase poll and check for yourself. Go to the Panelbase dot com main page, there’s a row of tabs /links at the top. Move the cursor over the one marked “media” and you see underneath “news” and “polls”. Click on the one “polls” and you get a page with a list of the opinion polls actual data tables. Click on the one you want, probably near or at the top. Check it out yourself, don’t believe ANYONE, me included, believe yourself. You’ll have to click “+” a few times to be able to see it!”.

    There seems to be a lot less people trying to still misrepresent that poll as “only 27% supports a second indy ref”.

    I wonder why!

  27. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 5 February, 2017 at 7:20 pm:

    “Hmmm, now that Ruthless has become somewhat tarnished by her abrupt volte-face on Brexit”

    Now to be fair – it was only her brass neck that got tarnished.

  28. Croompenstein says:

    I thought Slab might have something to say about the poll but naw still on the Daisley non-story

    Marra the heidcase greeting about abuse.. absolute joke..

  29. heedtracker says:

    This makes me larf,

    No idea why Mirror liggers think she’s channelling Tom Cruise either. Show me the money, more like, Show me the honours and the money teamGB.

  30. ElaineS says:

    Stuart, would Davidson have party to early servey results? What she is saying, sounds more like the poll I was sent on the 1st of Feb and I did on the 2nd of Feb, there were questions on what we thought of each party and who would would chose at GE, Scot Election, council Election etc so it sounds like she has gotten the results of the most recent poll done just a few days ago. Most of the polling companies are connected to Westminster Tories in one way or other and maybe Tories got Sunday Times to commission a this poll.

  31. ElaineS says:

    Stuart, would Davidson have party to early survey results? What she is saying, sounds more like the Panelbase poll W9437W5 I was sent on the 1st of Feb and I did on the 2nd of Feb, there were questions on what we thought of each party and who would would chose at GE, Scot Election, council Election etc so it sounds like she has gotten the results of the most recent poll done just a few days ago. Most of the polling companies are connected to Westminster Tories in one way or other and maybe Tories got Sunday Times to commission a this poll.

  32. Rock says:

    Ian McCubbin,

    “Well Ruth does not give up trying her spinning. At least we have you Stu to challenge her stories.”

    It is plain lying, not even spinning.

    The Rev. Stuart Campbell tirelessly exposes their lies day in day out.

    How many unionist lies has the “independence supporting” The National exposed in its two years or more of existence?

    Articles like these would be headline news every day in a genuine independence supporting newspaper.

  33. Macart says:

    Y’know, over the years I think we’ve all seen our fair share of dishonesty in the political world. Some would say it’s their stock in trade and plenty of media have. Politics as it is practised etc.

    But I don’t think I’ve ever come across someone so nakedly, transparently and consistently dishonest and disingenuous as Ruth Harrison…

    The Scottish Conservative branch manager truly is a piece of work. If she told me the sky was blue and the grass was green, I’d instantly ask for a second opinion.

  34. Dr Jim says:

    Forget about what polls say
    The bookies say Independence win 2/5 on

  35. robertknight says:

    Said it before re. Fluffy. Same applies…


  36. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, ElaineS is right, the Pabelbase poll Davidson gave a link to didn’t ask the Holyrood or Westminster voting intention, just Ref, Indy and EU questions. She got it wrong, and so unfortunately …

  37. yesindyref2 says:

    What it could be though with that poll is that the poll did ask the questions, but the Times used some last weekend, and some this weekend. In that case Panelbase would be releasing the data to the VI poll on Monday probably.

    So it could still be the same poll, and fieldwork dates.

  38. HandandShrimp says:


    There was apparently some poll or other on page 8 of the Times today. No idea if the numbers were there or not.

    I suppose the big news is that Labour’s position is truly dire.

  39. Bill Glen says:

    She make’s me so proud,,,,I Never vote for tory’s

  40. Remember Ruth worked for the BBC where she would have learned how to use propaganda and misinformation to manipulate public opinion,

    she also has all the characteristics of a sociopath which includes a pleasure in manipulation through deceit and a total lack of empathy for the suffering of others,

    with a compliant/complacent media in this new Post Truth World, where lying is seen as OK in the path to your objective,she is a dangerous person to Scotland and her citizens.

  41. Pete says:

    No great fan of Davidson but it is true to say that achievers in Scotland will be paying more in taxes and NI than their counterparts in ruk.
    Surely that’s the point.

  42. Hamish100 says:


    Achievers in Scotland?!- please define.
    No friend of Davidson!! Next you will be saying you are a proud Scot but….

    Jamie Green MSP one of Davidsons acolytes spouts forth about the polls– despite WoSc aready showing the days don’t correlate. This guy was one of tomknins wee pals that went off to Israel for a wine tasting session. Why? What benefit to the West of Scotland has Jamie Green brought as a result. None. He went pear shaped though just before the elections when a local loyal brexit tory and NAC councillor said on BBC radio that he wanted Prestwick Airort to close. In it for themselves those brexit tories.

  43. Rock says:


    “But I don’t think I’ve ever come across someone so nakedly, transparently and consistently dishonest and disingenuous as Ruth Harrison…”

    I recognised her nastiness a long time ago and posted that Davidson is the most disgraceful and dishonest politician in Scotland.

  44. Gfaetheblock says:

    Impact of divergence from U.K. Tax for 40% payers has been known since last year.

    What all the parties were offering has been known for weeks.

  45. Dan Huil says:

    @Pete 9:23pm


    Your choice of word says much. I think you really are a great fan of davidson.

  46. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scot Finlayson says: 5 February, 2017 at 9:11 pm:

    ” … in this new Post Truth World, where lying is seen as OK in the path to your objective,she is a dangerous person to Scotland and her citizens.”

    Perhaps, but if it is handled properly by the Indy movement, with the Tory party on only 27% as opposed to the SNP’s 47% and the Greens on a even just a few list MSP there is probably far more danger to the Tory vote by her lies getting found out than to the SNP from the lies not found out.

  47. Hamish100 says:

    Pete,I’m no friend of Davidson

    Just as a follow up I take those persons not affected are none achievers in your eyes?

    PS NI and tax are different

  48. crazycat says:

    @ Pete

    No, they won’t, because tax is not just income tax. (You said “taxes” before you try to claim you meant IT.)

  49. Dan Huil says:

    I fully expect the britnat media, including the bbc, will repeat Davidson’s lies.

  50. crazycat says:

    @ me

    Punctuation fail in post at 9.42:
    I should have written “you said “taxes” – before you try to claim…”

    What I actually wrote is slightly ambiguous.

  51. Dan Huil says:

    Davidson’s latest error-strewn tweet just underlines her desperation.

  52. heedtracker says:

    Pete says:
    5 February, 2017 at 9:23 pm
    No great fan of Davidson but it is true to say that achievers in Scotland will be paying more in taxes and NI than their counterparts in ruk.
    Surely that’s the point.

    We high achievers also get a lot more than our counterparts in rUK Pete, for our buck.

    Surely that’s the point.

  53. One_Scot says:

    Honestly, if Scotland does not votes Yes in IndyRef2, I believe I might go insane.

  54. Cactus says:

    Might as well complete the ‘full hoose’.. I’m sure ye won’t mind my sayin’ and also agree that..

    Ruth Davidson is a can’t.


    Ruth Davidson is a liar.

  55. Bob MACK says:

    WOULD Davidson have access to early results ?

    In my experience, yes .

  56. davidb says:

    While we await James Kelly doing his report, I am struck by the very high proportion of people born in England in the unweighted sample. They get roughly the right number for born other than Scotland/ England. Why such a huge discrepancy? And there’s a lot of over 55 ladies too – overwhelmingly No supporters.

    I suspect there’s some dodgy methodology here. Tell us whats happening Mr K.

    Oh, and kids reading – go visit yer granny and make sure she has to vote yes next time or stay at home. Scotland’s future is about her young people.

  57. Roddy Scott says:

    If ‘X’ commissions a poll about ‘Y’
    And ‘W’ rigs the figures to give the result ‘Z’
    Ye’ll ken it is just another Tory lie
    That from a woman who’s not right in the head

    She works as a mouthpiece for the Westminster Tory
    From having a job wi’ the Beeb distorting the truth
    Her manipulations of fact is just the same old story
    Does anyone believe that nippit wee lassie Ruth?

  58. Frank Lynch says:

    See Scottish Tories embracing the whole Fake News thing. Next stop the Alt Right movement…

  59. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    I think we should ask Ruth Davidson if she is prepared to take a lie detector test regarding the recent statements she has been making.

    How about Ruth, are you up for it???

  60. Lenny Hartley says:

    ElaineS I have received a couple of invites to take part in Panelbase political polls in the last couple of weeks, unfortunately none of the links they provided worked even though I switched on my desktop. For some reason Panelbase won’t allow you to conduct a politics poll from a phone or tablet.

    Anyhows , I did complete a panel base political poll several weeks ago that sounds just like your one asking about leaders and asking about Broon. I never did see it published so I guess it must be a private one for Blis. Maybe even Broon himself checking if his popularity is on the ascendancy before making a move on Kezia. For someone as delusional as him I would not rule anything out.

  61. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘Let it spur us…’

    She’s definitely got a thing about riding, eh?

  62. Robert Peffers says:

    I really cannot understand why the general public in Scotland can believe the utter bovine rectally sphinctered waste matter excreted by the Unionists and their tame propaganda spreading friends in the media.

    I’m just reading some BBC news reports on Ceefax on BBC Radio Scotland’s channel on the TV.

    NHS operations, ‘Long Waiters’, rise by 163%in England. English Patients are meant to be treated in under 18 weeks for knee and hip operations but numbers there are now over 350,000 waiting longer and 3.7 million on the waiting list.

    Yet there is Wullie Rennie spending tax payers money on FOI requests to discover that a patient in Dumfries & Galloway, in the period between 2013 & 2016, was kept in hospital unnecessarily for 508 days before discharge.

    The wee nyaff then tries to blame the SG even although the figures are down between 2015 and 2016. Now you do not need to be brain of Britain to work out who really is to blame in Dumfries & Galloway.

    The hospitals are under the control of the local Hospitals Board and Hospital Boards are seeded with local councillors by the local councils but the reason a patient is NOT released is because they cannot discharge a patient without the patient being properly supported in the community and that is the responsibility of the Local Council’s Social Work Department, (but the SG is changing that now).

    So Wee Willie’s besttest pals are the Tory & Labour Party and the council is :-
    Conservative 15
    Labour 14
    Scottish National Party 10
    Liberal Democrat 1
    Independent 7

    Independent usually means Tory in disguise.

    So draw your own conclusions.

  63. Lenny Hartley says:

    Davidb, previous polls have also had about twice the number of English born people taking part and a higher proportion of Elderley, wonder how many 16/17 year olds in the samples?
    I guess even when weighted it slews the figures in the Yoons favour , otherwise why do the do it?

  64. liz says:

    I think the Yoons are very worried.
    There has been a ramping up of lies.

    Andra Neil has been on twitter all day, raving about fiscal transfer.

    Cos you know WM just hands us £9bn for no reason.

  65. ian m says:

    The biggest problem for the Unionist politicians is when Scotland votes for Independence their chance of a knighthood goes oot the windae

  66. chris kilby says:

    If Tank Girl is so convinved her lot would win Indyref2 why is she clearly so terrified of holding one…?

  67. DerekM says:

    Like a broken record no indy no indy wahhhh lentils sandals and watermelons.

    Got to say one of Andrew`s articles in the Sunday Post today the one about the glorified footballer and a certain email from Mr Dan Snow was top notch.

    Bravo Sir

  68. freedo says:

    I’m inclined to agree with Bob MACK 9:52.
    It is a FACT that Ms Davidson, at best, conveyed misleading information in her tweet at 5:18 today since Panelbase Poll W7181w9 did not include any questions relating to the Scottish electorate’s voting intentions in any future elections. If Ms Davidson has to hand any documentary evidence supporting the numbers she quoted, then she has a moral obligation to publish it. Should she be unwilling to do so we can only regard her tweeted statement as a LIE.
    I was under the impression that an agency had been established to check social media content for factual integrity – who or what instigates these checks?

  69. chris kilby says:

    Ruthie Tank Commander isn’t lying. She’s merely giving us alternative facts.

  70. chris kilby says:

    Ruthie-Anne Davidson.

  71. Simon Curran says:

    I notice that in the poll it just refers to Ruth’s party as ‘Con’, sums it up nicely!

  72. freedo says:

    I should have added that I don’t do twitter, but if any on here feel inclined, perhaps they might tweet Ms Davidson and challenge her.
    Might get an interesting response!

  73. ronnie anderson says:

    BBC covering Mundells arse no repeat on 10pm scottish news.

  74. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    C’mon Nicola, announce the date of IndyRef2 at the SNP Spring Conference in Aberdeen in March.

    We can’t take any more of this!!!

  75. Ken says:

    What truth-proof Ruth seems incapable of understanding is that when she says there is no support for Indy2 and then says Indy 2 is a threat , it cannot be both.

  76. @ian m

    with Independence we will still have Elizabeth as our monarch,

    i`m sure our august scholar Mr Peffers would confirm that our Independence annuls the political union not the monarchic union,

    so knighthoods could still be up for grabs and we will still have an establishment that sees glory in such silly things.

  77. Thepnr says:


    Already done exactly that to Jamie Greene MSP who is that latest Tory liar to tweet the exact same lie.

    “There is NOT even a question on Holyrood or Westminster voting intention in that poll you linked too.”

  78. galamcennalath says:

    liz says:

    I think the Yoons are very worried.

    Absolutely shiting themselves.

    The majority of Unionist MPs across the UK and MSPs here didn’t want a Leave result with EURef. That’s what happened and as good UKOKers they need to now say ‘will of the UK in total’. They all know Brexit is going to be a mess and will damage their UK, and as a result damage their Union. It’s lose, lose, lose all round for them. And threatening to be a win for us.

    Remember, the day after EURef most of us realised that result represented a potential trigger for IndyRef2 in circumstances which suited us. The more forward thinking Unionists must have realised the result put their Union on a shoogly peg.

    They have much to be feart aboot!

  79. freedo says:

    Got it in one! Snappy and to the point.
    Keep it up.

  80. Effijy says:

    Wee Ruth Krankie and Kim Jong-in both operate with fear and lies as to beat the public to submission.

    I’d like to wash her lying mouth out with Carbolic soap but how could I wash my hands afterwards?

    With regard the polls, they might be the same elitist owned polls used to try and manipulate the electorate to suit the needs of the wealthy.

    They are so correct that we have a UK Labour Government,
    Hilary Clinton is President, and we voted to Remain???

    With Regard Clunker Brown making a comeback, how can the man who sold our Gold Reserves just before they tripled in value, the man who took £10 Billion from ordinary peoples private pensions, the man who got £50 Billion of PFI schools and hospitals that will cost us over £300 Billion with the interest payments, the man who was known as Bully by has staff and who showed his true colours when he left his mike on to describe pensioner Gillian Duffy, the man who lied for Better Together to say that an independent Scotland wouldn’t have pensions, Blood Transfusion, nor Transplant lists when all 3 were Guaranteed, the man who said the smaller party at the election couldn’t form the government, when we read his statement from the previous election when he assured us that they could, the man who couldn’t keep his promise to keep his local Tesco Store open, the man who has £3 Million in his own charity and never thought to give a penny to Food Banks in Fife, the man who spends £10,000 per week in “Expenses” from his own charity so that he can travel the globe in 5 Star Luxury extolling the virtues of telling jaw dropping Lies.

    Why don’t we have his old mate Tony back too and he can again pledge all the UK resources to be at the disposal of
    another US President.
    Another man with £50 Million in the bank who shares the difficult decisions with ordinary working people.

    My arse Tory Tony and Clunker the Conservative!

  81. freedo says:

    Got it in one, snappy and to the point!
    Keep it up.

  82. galamcennalath says:

    Thrawn was doing his damnest to support Torrance’s assertions. However he never turned up to support Mundell or Davidson!

  83. Iain More says:

    Do they still make Brasso?

  84. Ben Power says:

    Ranting Ruth an Angry Aggie spewing out anything to please her Englexit masters in the hope of being rewarded with a safe tory westminster seat down south.

    Power in the south is historically the hope of many tory hatchet jobbers.

  85. HandandShrimp says:

    No great fan of Davidson but it is true to say that achievers in Scotland will be paying more in taxes and NI than their counterparts in ruk.


    Are you saying that someone working hard and only earning £36,000 is not achieving anything?

    The ways of the Unionist are strange indeed.

  86. O/T

    Busy day today. Doing the YES Cowal accounts, tidying up the Forward Shop, home for tea thne lots of stuff on my computer till .decided to watch the Scottish football on the BBC. There is NO Scottish football on the BBC this week!

  87. heedtracker says:

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage Feb 4
    I make no apologies for sharing this again – if you only read one piece on Scottish politics today, make it this

    Took Kev Rippey advice, yoohoo Kevin, and read Daisley of the Heil’s thing today. The big schlub gets around to slagging off everyone really but its really funny and then not so funny, considering this reprobates going to be spending every Daily Heil minute venerating the UKOK goddess that is Ruthie babes.

    SNP bad, SNP like Pres Trump, Sturgeon bad, Salmond bad, even poor old Iain Macwhirter, bad, cybernats bad, academia bad? civic Scotland bad, and on and on it goes, but then

    “STV is drunk on access and stumbles over the line so many times it no longer remembers that the line exists.

    Given the intimidation of industry leaders during the independence referendum — the phone calls and raised voices and thinly-veiled threats — it’s not surprising that businesses are keen to keep ministers on side.”

    No one but no one messes with a Daily Heil creep. Cant think a lovely tory unionist like Kev wants us to read it.

    You’re fired, ed.

  88. alexicon says:

    I see over on the Rev’s twitter account that someone has posted alternative [real] figures for the poll.

    Anyone got any details?

  89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Actually, when you think about it, what does Ruthless’s injunction to “work harder” really mean?

    It can’t be to win support from the SNP, whose following is clued-up and rock-solid, so who then?

    Ahem. The “also-rans” of BLiS, obviously. Which makes it all the more odd that the dwindling Labourites still persist in clinging to this failing Tory-run Union. Dim or what..?

  90. Meg merrilees says:


    Please can people sign this petition. A young Kenyan man in Glasgow, due to marry in 6 days is to be deported from Scotland on the 5.25 flight tomorrow.

    All of his family live here and he will be destitute if sent to Kenya. He is a sound engineer and part of the Glasgow music scene.

    please help.

  91. Hermodr says:

    Signed Meg, but bloody hell – deported tomorrow? Sickening. That’s Brexit Britain right there.

  92. Meg merrilees says:

    Apparently this is where Liar Harrison got her results from earlier today.
    It’s a site called ‘What Scotland thinks’ – but what demographic of Scotland?

  93. Meg merrilees says:

    PS still dated jan 2017 so still pre-budget!

  94. HandandShrimp says:

    It is absolutely terrible how you burly writers are bullying poor Ruth with correct numbers and dates

    What is the world coming to if a far right politician like Ruth can’t have her own alternative facts.


    With that to bed

  95. crazycat says:

    @ alexicon

    James Kelly now has a discussion of the poll:

    This includes the correct data and a potential entry in the Guinness Book of Records.

  96. alexicon says:

    Thank you crazycat. read and understood.

  97. yesindyref2 says:

    You’ll get a laugh out of this, not long tweeted by Ruth Harrison:

    TSE of Public Betting got taken in as well by whatscotlandthinks, Prof Curtice with the wrong figures. Again. Someone who used to post on the Grun is the only comment on the page (his Sep figures are wrong) …

    Dig dig dig … wonder what Harrison’s next twit will be?

  98. Dr Jim says:

    Runnie Willie sounds better than Willie Rennie

    What pains me about Lib Dems and their FOI obsession it’s our taxpayers money they spend just to try and annoy the party that the rest of us actually vote for

    Pay for it out of the Carmichael liars fund that they gave some back to cover up the fact that it looks like Jakey Rollingpin gave him it

  99. yesindyref2 says:

    Plus of course that the table Davidson tweeted shows the previous figure as Sep 2016 – and the one she refers to as Jan 2017.

    Perhaps she didn’t notice the date was February already during the budget debate as she was too busy tweeting on her phone in Holyrood.


  100. Smallaxe says:

    Meg merrilees:

    Signed and Donated and Sickened.

    Peace Always.

  101. Still Positive says:

    Meg merillees @12.00

    Signed with pleasure.

    Off to bed now.

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    Someone clued up had already done that on Davidson’s feed – same guy came up first with the alert about the 27% misrepresentation. Also SGP is on the case, waiting for the datatsets if they come out tomorrow (today now!).

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    @Meg merrilees
    That’s Curtice’s blog. I think he’s a frustrated devo-maxer who likes being on the media as much as possible!

  104. Capella says:

    Scot Goes Pop does spoil Ruth’s day by showing that she used the wrong figures in quoting a drop in SNP support. Apparently Panelbase corrected their previous wrong figures in September but John Curtice’s site “What Scotland Thinks” hasn’t updated the correction.

    Oh well. Nice try.

  105. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    O/T since you’re here – my Co-op’s double cream has gone back to the Saltire. It still has the tractor logo though.

  106. meg merrilees says:

    Yesindyref2 and Cappella

    Brilliant detective work there. TRuthless definitely needs that large tin of Brasso now!


    Please can you sign this petition- Robert is being deported today at 17.25 from Glasgow to Nairobi. All his family are in Glasgow and he will be destitute in Kenya. He is due to be married on the 11th Feb. It is only because he and his fiancé gave notification of his marriage that the home office have investigated whether or not he is in a true relationship. now they want to deport him.

  107. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – I got a reply from a customer service person re Co-Op cream. Seems they have a “Labelling Team”.

    ” I have spoken with our Labelling Team and they have advised this is not a political statement in any way. The Saltire and Union Jack are a visual representation of where the product is sourced from.

    Our Scottish stores usually receive the cream with the Saltire on as this is a locally sourced product. Unfortunately, we have experienced some availability issues with the supplier and rather than the product not be available at all, some Scottish stores were given the cream that would be stocked in our other stores as a substitute.

    I apologise again that this has disappointed you however, I hope this information helps. The labelling Team have advised they will take your comments on board.”

    So basically, if it is from Scotland, it gets a Saltire. If it’s from England, it gets a Union Jack. I did point out the fallacy of their policy. I look forward to the outcome of the Labelling Team taking my comments on board.

  108. Capella says:

    @ meg merilees – petition signed. I normally avoid petitions like the plague unless they are official government forms. But I made an exception in this case. I detest the arbitrary deportation that seems to be going on at the moment. Its inhumane.

  109. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah, I signed it too (not displayed). Found I still had my old email addy for change.

  110. yesindyref2 says:

    Good grief, found via a National article after a quick search

    I don’t do facebook (or Twit), but they could do with more likes …

  111. John Moss says:

    Roothie babe is just an Alistair Carmichael in drag. No need to bother with her lies. She’s on her way out 🙂

  112. Extract from Theresa May’s speech to the EU March 31st 2017.

    ‘Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
    Or close the wall up with our English dead.
    ..But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
    Disguise fair nature with hard-favour’d rage;

    And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
    Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
    The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
    That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
    ..I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
    Straining upon the start. The game’s afoot:
    Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
    Cry ‘God for Harry, England, and Saint George!’

    No, honest, I’m not making it u; alternatively.

  113. Extract from Theresa May’s speech to the EU March 31st 2017.

    ‘Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
    Or close the wall up with our English dead.
    ..But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
    Disguise fair nature with hard-favour’d rage;

    And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
    Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
    The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
    That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
    ..I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
    Straining upon the start. The game’s afoot:
    Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
    Cry ‘God for Harry, England, and Saint George!’

    No, honest, I’m not making it up; alternatively.

  114. Ken500 says:

    Never had their bern a bigger liar than A. Neil. Tory totally lying Neil lining his pockets on the total mismanagement of the Scottish economy by Westminster Unionists. A. Neil is supposed to be impartial but is nothing by a lying sythophant on re-dial to Westminster Unionists. Greedy beyond reproach. Alcoholics make poor decisions. They should get help not be in a kying position of power,lying their pockets on public money of those they wish to maliciously insult, wiyjoit compassion of any kind for their community and society.

    Neil supports Illegal wars costing Trns and murdering and maining millions. Causing the worst migration crisis since 11WW. Livings people in desperation and misery, A Westminster system that is malicious as it is useless. Anyone who joins a Unionist Party is doing it to line their own pockets not from any condisetstion if their fellow citizens. The corrupt is complete. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31Constituencie to once again ruin the UK economy.

    A, Neil should get the sack for total political bias and supporting a corrupt regime forever. To defraud taxes and the taxpayers to line their greedy pockets. Every word utters is a lie. The BGC should be closed down or held to account. A Westminster psychopathic spokesperson ruining people!s lives. Absolutely appalling.

    Unionists illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion, The debt every increasing. HMRC not enforcing the tax Law and colluding with tax fraud by BBC employees. Setting up companies of personal remuneration to avoid tax.

    Scotland has systematically been defrauded of every resource by total Unionist mismanagement. Corbyn is a disgrace, The fraudulent Tories have derived the people in Scotkabdvtge right to manage better their economy. The illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion inn the UK is an absolute disgrace. The accumulated Unionist debt and ultimate state of the Scottish economy because of Unionist politicans and their sychophanic lies leading to the demise of democracy is criminal. Most of the Unionists criminals should be in jail.

    The appalling lies told about the Scottish economy by ignorant, arrogant greedy Unionists full of their own conceit is beyond comprehension. Westminster is wasting another £500Billion on Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All dusters waiting to happen when there are credible alternatives.

    Westminster Treasury have been illegally taking funds out of Scotland for years and trying to hide it through fraudulent accounting, They try and hide the deficit by the same methods. Westminster mismanagement of the Scottish economy is criminal. Taking £Billions from Scotland to be wasted by Westminster Unionist crooks, The BBC is an absolute politically corrupt greedy organisation. Another part of Westminster Gov political propaganda machine.

    If Trump stops the illegal wars he is doing the world a favour. As soon as Trump made gains the military was stood down. Says it all for the corrupt, the warmonger career politicians, who have no clue. The corrupt Non Dom tax evaders are getting called out. The Press is an international failure. Cutting to it’s own demise. A self defeating echo chamber, which people do not take seriously any more. It makes them even more ridiculous and angry. Going from more ridiculous nonsense. extreme to another. The epitome of Westminster unionists who have to act illegally to try and gain powers to abuse. A total failure. Time after time after time.

    Vote YES in another IndyRef is the only solution to the corrupt Westminster exclusion and refusal. The Westminster unionists are pathetic corrupt, useless lying sycophants. Along with the Tory Royals who are completely out of touch with reality. A. Neil Thatchers sycophantic henchman trying for a knighthood has lost all credibility. An appalling grasp of facts, and manipulated lack of knowledge.

  115. Robert says:

    Ruth has little interest in politics nowadays.

    Her Political stance is now only media friendly sound bytes, plus having political status she loves nothing better than her jaunts to London to make guest appearances on TV Shows, where I believe the money is not to be sneered at.

  116. woosie says:

    The salient point about the tax “changes” is that nothing actually changed! Scotland chose not to cut taxes for higher earners, while england did so. Kim Yong Ruth’s indignation at this suggests that england have, prior to their changes, been overtaxing the wealthy.

    That must mean they’ll be getting big rebates!

  117. Dr Jim says:

    Mews revealed this morning that David Mundell is in fact not a real person but a Holographic Algorithm

  118. Capella says:

    BBC have done detailed analysis of voting patterns for the EU referendum. Seems the closest correlation is education level. The higher the graduate count, the more likely to vote remain. Age also had an effect.

    Does this mean Scots are nation of bright young outward looking scholars?

    Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendum –

  119. Liz Rannoch says:

    Meg Merrilees @ 12.00


    Vile people them Tories and I am horrified to find out that they have opened an office in Dunfermline! Two nobodys, Liz Smith and…. Murdo the Turdo. First reaction was to find a gun, rocks, C4…then realised I don’t know where the cctv cameras are. lol
    Have now calmed down (somewhat) but what can I do?

  120. gordoz says:

    Hey Rev –

    After SBowl last night must be an opportunity
    To ditch all the #SNPbad guff.

    Should jump on the bandwagon and rebrand as
    New Scotland Patriots ! Surely an opportunity since Patriotism good but Nationalism bad (Obvs)

    I’m sure Cairnstoon could do a cracking rebrand Pats like logo too !!

    Since your all SNP thru & thru and have FMs ear (not literally of course). But you know ?…. ???

  121. Sinky says:

    Worth listening to Prof Allyson Pollock on GMS Radio Scotland this morning at a 8.40 am telling us the truth about the NHS in Scotland and England.

  122. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Depressing stuff. If the Tories are threatening by coded messages of violence, then they no longer believe they can maintain their Union using the bollot box, ….. and they will get their comeuppance via the ballot box.

  123. heedtracker says:

    Does this mean Scots are nation of bright young outward looking scholars?

    Maybe but Leave means that a lot of Brits just don’t like foreigners. They want to live in 1950’s UK, where everybody knows your name.

    Ken Clarke on Brexit: ‘I’ve never seen anything as mad or chaotic as this’

    Last week, the veteran parliamentarian was the only Tory to vote against triggering article 50, his passionate pro-Europe speech making him an unlikely hero of the Remain vote. So how bad does he think Brexit could be? ‘A historic disaster,’

    Historic disaster or £350 million a week, for a new hospital a week, a Leave vote explained to me. Its much like listening to a NO vote explain Scottish indy is an IRA plot.

    Brexit and the Project Fear win in Scotland are both spectacular triumphs of propaganda. Most obvious statement of this Baltic morn.

    Just listened to wheezy Nic Robertson’s vote tory BBC r4 Today show. English elderly care could well cause the collapse of the NHS, raise English tax? Dont buy nukes? Its another week on planet toryboy teamGB.

    Also, not so future Sir David Beckham’s got a dark side.

  124. Stoker says:

    To newbies and lurkers

    A word to the wise regarding the petition put on this thread at 1:32am. It is a private marketing company and the “petition” will not even be considered by the ‘Petitions Committee’ at Westminster.

    Several weeks ago i wrote to the Petitions Committee enquiring about these companies and received an official response, which i put up on here for everyones benefit, and it clearly stated that these private petition companies do not get considered.

    Continuing to put those links up on sites such as WOS, regardless of how heart-wrenching the case may be, achieves nothing but playing on and conning the considerable readership of WOS into parting with personal details.

    Using fake and/or old emails to sign them also achieves nothing but continuing to perpetuate and encourage the myth and helps to con newbies into believing they’re doing something helpful via these marketing companies when the only people you’re helping are the owners of said companies to fill their own pockets.

    Also, if “Robert” is to be deported today at 5:25pm do you truly believe you’ll stop that deportation by signing that con today?

    Furthermore, here is a case that should be far more concerning to us. It’s about a woman who has lived for almost 30-years in England, raised family there and is now to be deported. They have been keeping her locked up in the doomed Dungavel ‘House’ (basically a prison for immigration cases).

    Her story has not been given much airing by the BBC branch office at Pacific Quay because instructions are to keep it as hush hush as possible. This story that Unionists are using our country to exact their filthy games is on a scandal par with the rendition flights touching down on Scottish soil under the cover of darkness.

    We need to be making more people aware and protesting at the gates, not playing on the kindness and popularity of Wings to help struggling English marketing companies.

    Please guard your personal details and avoid these private companies like the plague.

  125. call me dave says:

    Radio shortbread are calling this week ‘NHS week’ and called on Prof Jamie Weir in Aberdeen & Prof Alison Pollock health teaching adviser working in Newcastle to compare Scotland with England about 08:30hrs

    Prof Pollock did not hold back stating the NHS in England was scrapped in 2012 (quoted some act of parliament) and rapidly being privatised and funding reduced. This was resulting in the SNHS was being starved of funding because of the the way the Barnett formula is structured. But the SNHS was doing well in comparison in spite of this but was in danger from lack of funding from Barnett ‘block grant’ reductions from WM government.

    Prof Weir preferred to talk about how badly Scotland was doing comparing staff levels to our European neighbours and money wasn’t everything.

    Well worth a listen and I hope many people heard what we here all know to be the case. I doubt Prof Pollock will not be on Auntie’s Christmas card list. 🙂

  126. Greannach says:

    Ms Harrison needs to work harder.

  127. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT I may be the only person to cheer on Donald Trump but his ‘ do you think we are so innocent….’ has fair gladdened my heart.

    And it would be good to see Russia and the USA tolerate each other at the very least.

    I still ask myself , had Clinton won would be seeing the demo’s and violence on the streets of America?

    Would we read that ‘Arnie” wants to punch her lights out ?
    And just how much must we read/ hear from the UK media of how bad he his ?

    If I had lived in the USA and had to make a choice ‘twixt those two candidates ,I would not have chosen Clinton. Given the poverty of the choice I would probably not have voted , something I have never contemplated here.

  128. Sinky says:

    The National thids morning reports that 60% of pupils get at least one Higher.

    Had fallen to 41.6 in 2007 (when SNP formed government) now 60.2%.

    £750 million being invested in education driving up standards.

    Something to remember when told education in Scotlanmd is a disaster.

  129. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT but just watched an RT report on Catalunya – things are hotting up.

    81% want independence according to the last referendum and the Spanish Gov. is threatening them if they dare to hold a second one this year by closing polling booths , stopping salaries of civil servants and any other anti democratic means possible.

    C’mon Catalunya!

  130. Ken500 says:

    What about managing the Scottish economy anther way. The way the majority want. Cut obsolete Trident £1Billion, a tax (minimum pricing) on ‘loss leading’ drink. £1Billion. No tax evasion by multi million (foreign) companies making vast profits. £3Billion? Not repaying debt on money never borrowed or spent in Scotland £4Billion. Not taxing the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Costing Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. £4Billion+ (last 6 years £24Billion). = £13Billion+

    Borrowing and spending 10% of the £54Billion+ Scotland raises in the economy leading to higher investment. £7Billion.

    The (unfair, unequal) Union costs Scotland. £20Billion.

    Not forgetting the Oil revenues which were secretly and illegally taken from Scotland to be illegally squandered and wasted. The UK Treasury fraudulent accounting practices.

    Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. The Westminster unionist policies. Ruining the world economy. Brexit will ruin the UK economy even more. Affecting the Scottish economy negatively. Once again Scotland dragged down with policies with which the majority do not agree. Even if the illegal wars are stopped. Plus the EU stops tax evasion by foreign internationals. That causes unfair, non equal trade.

    Brexit will now ruin the world economy. The Tories have done it again. Borrowing, more debt and wasting £Billions of tax payers money. £Trns. . Not funding essential sevices NHS/Education, Spending £500Billion more of borrowed money. On Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow Airport and Trident, All disasters waiting to happen. Total mismanagement. The illegal Unionist Westminster Gov want out of the EU so they and their associates can continue to illegally tax evade. Lowering living standards and increase the cost of living.

    Just like in the last decades. The US and Russia have to stop the arms race. It is bankrupting both countries. There will have to be a disarmourment deal. Or world will suffer more. Russia saved the West in the 11WW. 26Million Russian died. 1in 6 The highest desths apart from Germany. 1 in 4. Far higher than the UK (1/2million) France (1/2milion) and the US.(1941) in Europe. One of the biggest armageddon catastrophe with which the world has ever had to deal. Still affects the world.

    Scotland’s EU contribution is £1Billion. Even more comes back in CAP, Grants, shared Defence costs. Investment by the EU/ECB in renewables and other enterprise projects. Unlawful Brexit will damage the Scottish economy.

  131. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dr Jim says:

    “News revealed this morning that David Mundell is in fact not a real person but a Holographic Algorithm”.

    Thanks for starting a great new anagram competition, Dr J.

    Regarding Nana’s link to:

    I got a close look at the more extreme supporters of The Queen’s XI when they visited my team’s ground recently: not a pretty sight. Coincidentally, I met an old colleague at the game whom I hadn’t seen since before the referendum. We both watched the behaviour and read the “staunch” banners and then he turned to me and said, “You realise when we win the next referendum they’ll be on the streets?”

    It’s no coincidence it was a Tory who first used the term “Ulsterisation” in a Scottish context. It’s pretty much the Unionists’ last hope, along with electoral fraud and the sudden appearance of some mythical Scottish Republican group to blow up post boxes and frighten the natives.

    Tin-foil hat maybe slightly askew, but I like it that way…..

  132. Brian Powell says:

    I see the support for an Independence Referendum in Catalonia at 81%.

    As for us, we know the Tories despise their fellow Scots but for the rest, those in between 46% who support Ind and the 25% who support the Tories, is that OK? Are they to be the most easily scared in Europe? So scared they will let the Party of that 25% decide our future?

    What I find amazing is when Ruth Davidson or a Westminster Tory MP claims ownership of all who voted No at the last Ref, we hear not a peep from Slab.

  133. Ken500 says:

    In Catalonia the turnout for an Independence Referendum was 40% Quite low. 2.2million majority out of a 5.2 million electorate. 7.5Million pop. A majority did not vote on whether to have a Referendum on Independence. More autonomous system over essential matters, ‘Corrupt federal system’ The Spanish corrupt politicians and Gov.

    There is higher support in Scotland for Independence (SNP policies) among the electorate. Influenced by Westminster Unionist broken promises.

  134. Glamaig says:

    Sinky says:
    6 February, 2017 at 8:45 am
    ‘Worth listening to Prof Allyson Pollock on GMS Radio Scotland this morning at a 8.40 am telling us the truth about the NHS in Scotland and England.’

    Its a shame that didnt get the prime 7:50 slot.

    Westminster rhetoric in support of the NHS must be one of the biggest lies ever perpetrated on the English electorate. It is being privatised by stealth.

  135. I’ve had enough of New Labour/Militant/ Momentum Labour’s Scottish Branch Office.
    There was no message to be heard when the citizens of Scotland astoundingly voted out 40 of their 41 MPs in the May 2015 UK GE, and Ian Murray, of whom we would never have heard otherwise, now stands alone shooed in on the back of ‘tactical voting’ by the Tory Morning Tea Ladies of Morningside.
    There was no message to be heard when the citizens of Scotland returned 56 SNP MPs, and the Unionist haul was reduced to one feckless Border Tory, Murray the not so Red New Labour Brown acolyte, and Pants On Fire Carmichael from the Clegg /Cameron Lib Dem Appeasers.
    There was no message to be heard, when despite the massive pro Union MSM/BBC propaganda drive against ‘Nicola Sturgeon’ and the SNP which rivalled the Indyref Better Together Project Fear Surge in intensity, the SNP were returned as the Government for a third time, retaining a working majority with the Pro Independence Greens, while maintaining the impetus towards Independence.
    There was no message to be heard when the Scottish Branch was demoted to third place behind Davidson’s Uber Right Wing LisTory gang.
    There was no message to be heard when 62% of Scots citizens voted Remain.
    There was no message to be heard when NS and the Scottish Government developed proposals to argue that as Scotland voted Remain, May’s Brexit negotiations could and should include a discrete deal for Scotland, maintaining access to the Single Market, and control of its own immigration policy and procedures.
    There was no message to be heard when polls indicate that 50% of Scots expect a second Indyref within two years, following May’s Brexit stance, to mitigate the threat to 80,000 jobs and the disastrous financial calamity of billions in lost revenue id Scotland is dragged out of the EU against its express wishes.
    There was no message to be heard when Ruth Davidson’s Tories ‘got on with the day job’, cut Public Spending by £25 billion by slashing Welfare spending, sacking 100,000’s of public servants, closing down government facilities like Job Centres, DWP Offices, and transfer ring the work to the South of England, ‘pooling and sharing’ proving to be a one way street.
    There was no message to be heard following the introduction of the Universal Credit Scheme, which meant the end to Housing Benefit, Income Support, Job Seekers’ Allowance, Employment Support Allowance, Working Families’ Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, now paid in one lump sum, and cuts to individual Allowances ‘hidden’ within .
    There was no message to be heard when Housing Benefit for 18-21 year olds was scrapped.
    There was no message to be heard when ESA to disabled Job Seekers was cut by £29.05 a week from April to align it with JSA rates for the unemployed who had none of the additional expenses met by Scots citizens with extra costs due to disability.
    There was no message to be heard when Child Tax Credits element of UCS will be paid for two children only. A third child must eat and drink fresh air when their parents are unemployed.
    There was no message to be heard when the Housing Benefit Scheme has been scrapped. UCS will include a notional amount for ‘rent’ which the individual will now be required to pay direct to their landlord. Aye, right. Shoes for Child number three, or the rent?
    There was no message to be heard when the Universal Pension Rate was introduced, but would require another 3 years Nat Insurance contributions for entitlement at age 67, 68, 69, 70?
    There was no message to be heard when it was established that 200,000 Scottis children are living below the poverty line because of the Red Blue and Yellow Tories’ vote through a Charter for Budget Responsibility in Jan ’15 to implement £25 billion in ‘Austerity’ cuts to Welfare and Public Services while cutting the taxes of the Richest by 5%.
    There was no message to be heard over the utterly shameful statistic that 500,000 of our Scots citizens are living on or below the poverty line.
    There is no message to be heard when our FM and the Scottish Government welcomes refugees escaping the horror of war in the Middle East, while in the South, Ruth’s Party fans the flames of Brexit xenophobia and racism.
    Yet they say they’ve been listening, and ‘get it’?
    Just once, for just one tiny moment in time, will anyone from the Scottish Red Tory Branch Office stand up at FMQ and train their guns across the chamber and fire salvoes at the guffawing woofing bunch of self-satisfied Blue Tories, the real ‘enemy’ whom they are supposed to be opposing?
    By the way, Kezia, Neil. Jenny, Johann, Iain, Jackie, even, god help us, Anas,you can ‘get it right up them’, by pointing to the mess the Blue Tories in England are making of England..NHS, LA funding cuts, and so on.
    If Ruth, WATP Two Jobs Tomkins, and Murdo the Queen’s Eleven Fraser, and the Tony Blair New Labour detritus in your own Branch Office got their way, there can be no doubt that we would be in as much of an unholy mess as May/Corbyn/ Farron England finds itself.
    After all, you are trying to win seats back from them, your arch foes.
    Perhaps you hear the messages; but I’m afraid that you are not listening; and that’s why you are dead in Scotland.
    Free of Charge, I offer to run a Listening Workshop for the Movers and Shakers of what’s left of the Labour Movement Up Here. I’m in the book if anyone’s listening.
    We need a Labour Movement, more than ever.
    But not an England uber alles Labour Movement.

  136. Anagach says:

    Alt-Truth-Ruth or ATR for short.

    I do not think they care, reckoning that their supporters are not bothered by factual discrepancies but get the general feeling of the message, Tories good, SNP bad.

  137. Brian Powell says:

    Jack Collatin

    Do you mind if I reprint your ‘list’ (there was no message) on a Facebook page?

  138. mike d says:

    Dorothy the catalonians will win independence because they have something that half of scotland don’t have. A spine.

  139. Calum McKay says:


    Scotland was told we would have roaming charges in the EU by better together if we left the uk.

    Seemingly it is the other way round, if we remain with the uk and leave he EU we will have roaming charges imposed on us as we are no longer in the club!

    Fancy that, better together lied to Scots!

  140. galamcennalath says:

    Calum McKay says:

    Fancy that, better together lied to Scots!

    BT was set up to spread and promote lies. That was the entirety of the save-the-Union plan.

    What else could they do? There is/was no positive case for the Union.

    It isn’t going to be so easy for then next time! Most of the lies have been debunked and there is now a massive negative case against the Union thanks to the Tories and Brexit. They will be on the back foot.

  141. DerekM says:

    Shocking piece of nonsense from the Spanish,what is it with these Relics of feudalism and imperialism that they think they have a divine right to suppress other countries into their own fake construct of empire.

  142. louis.b.argyll says:

    The pollsters, like our media institutions are all owned and controlled by shysters, often staffed by former Whitehall civil servant buddies..

    I don’t believe their overall independence figures for one minute.

  143. heedtracker says:

    More Not Scots oil work diverted to England. Graun leave out Scotland England North Sea territorial line too, on their nice map of UK oil patch, which is not that surprising,

    Wonder why our imperial masters refuse to give Holyrood oil and gas devo, in Scots waters.

  144. galamcennalath says:

    Catalunya and Espana.

    Apparently, the present situation came about because as Spain came out of the dark Fascist era in a democratic monarchy, the hard right still wielded power. The late 70s constitution allowed for extensive devolution to the constituent nations. (Far more than Scotland). However, to ‘buy off’ the hard right, the constitution also stated that Spain was indivisible and cannot be broken up.

    And therein lies a lesson for Scotland!

    We should prepare ourselves for the hard right of Greater England making an offer.

    Scotland will be offered DevoSuperHomeMaxFederalRule (again) in return for a legally binding constitutional change making the UK indivisible and the Union eternal (except for Northern Ireland, of course).

    When WM talks of a federal solution, and/or a new Treaty of Union. I suspect this is what they plan.

  145. heedtracker says:

    Graun’s Brent decom thing interesting in that they have no Scottish view in there at all, government, industry or environmental, just this dude,

    “Duncan Manning, who spent 19 years with the Royal Marines and is now one of the team charged by Shell with overseeing the decommissioning of Brent, is confident the group won’t repeat the mistakes of the past.”

    Tony Blair’s redrawing of England’s North Sea territory takes almost half of Scottish North Sea oil fields too.

  146. Shug says:

    Ruth will have the full protection of the BBC for all the daftness she can spout

    On the subject of the BBC they have a lovely wee article on Hadrian wall which was built to keep back “northern ancient Britons”

    I am sure they all stood back waiving their wee plastic union jacks printed in Hong Kong. OH how the romans were worried about north britons?

    Mind control at its best

  147. Shug says:

    There s a lot of scope for developing the arguments that unionist are:

    subsidy junkies
    Unwilling to support themselves

    And every headline from the mail/express will support this

  148. Nana says:

    Anyone know what poll this is from

    A friend called to tell me several no voters in her area have changed their minds, two were tory voters but no longer. They are disgusted by T May but more disgusted by Davidson’s complete u turn on brexit.

  149. DerekM says:

    Civilization is not empire,empire is the barbarians at the gates,all it does is limit ideas inside civilization,suppresses free thought and other ways of doing things,it is a step backwards as a species.

    So hurry up and sign a50 may you victorian backwards headcase i am itching to move the human species forward into the 21st century.

  150. Macart says:

    @ Nana

    I believe the poll is referenced in this article in the National Nana.

  151. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Anyone know what poll this is from

    Two tweets from there …

    New survey says 71% of 16-34 year olds would vote YES to Scottish independence tomorrow.


    but we need to get them out to vote

    And THAT second one is the truth! The secret to winning IndyRef2 is to get all YES supporters to actually get out and vote!

  152. Thepnr says:


    It is from the poll that this article is about. Page 4.

  153. AuldReekieJim says:

    Fake News!

    Ruth Davidson spouts that much verbal shite, she is having false teeth fitted, so she can eat through her arse.
    Only liquid intake to start with, until she learns to chew.

  154. Nana says:

    Thanks guys. A pal sent me the tweet asking where it was from[like I’m some sort of detective or ?] and told me her neighbour’s grandson asked his gran to vote yes next time as it was for his future.

    Maybe more kids need to speak to their grandparents and parents with this message.

    I think getting teens to go and vote will be easier next time. As the boy said “it’s my future”

  155. yesindyref2 says:

    Heh heh, from Curtice’s twitter

    Poor Babe Ruth, she’s going to need a Babegrow with her soft boiled eggs and soldiers.

  156. galamcennalath says:

    That Panelbase poll.

    Immediately obvious weasel words ..

    On IndyRef question it says “If the referendum was held again tomorrow ….

    On EuRef question it says “And how would you vote on another referendum on …

    The use of “another” is less biased than the use of “the” and “again” IMO.

    This might not sway the results by much, but why bother with suggestive wording like that?

  157. Valerie says:

    Atten shun! Eyes far right.

    21 gun salute at noon, says Sky. They hovered over the troops sitting by their antique cannons but we could only see dark blobs, due to the filthy smog in London.

  158. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sinky @ 08:45, Glamaig @ 10:18,

    Missed that prog myself, but that Allyson Pollock is a true hero. A veritable rarity in these days of broadcast misinformation and spin, someone who knows her stuff and strives to get the facts into the public domain.

    I remember her from the days of the “Scottish Executive”, being dissed on telly by some thug of a Labour minister (Tom McCabe, possibly) for daring to mention a few salient but inconvenient facts about the Scottish NHS at the time.

    Now as then, I would take her word over any Blue Tory, Red Tory or Yellow Tory politician any time.

  159. Valerie says:

    What a hero Artur Mas is, he will be written about in the future.

    My wee Spanish rescue dog sends him strength thoughts, cos she is now a vile Sep over here.

  160. Dorothy Devine says:

    Mike d, I think you are wrong about the spine – I think half of Scotland don’t have the information and are willing to believe the old ‘trusted ‘ media.

    The MSM is the messenger of choice for many and unless we can do something to counter that lying , manipulative bunch of cockroaches we will remain in a slight minority.

    I am more than surprised that we did so well last time considering the forces of evil ranged against us.

  161. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh aye, glad to say the updated panelbase tables DO show the data about voting intention for Westminster WAS from that same survey, fieldwork up till 26th January before the budget so my worry was groundless.

    Perhaps the Rev has secret sources of info …

  162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Nana @ 11:49:

    Maybe more kids need to speak to their grandparents and parents with this message.

    Absolutely. I likewise think this should be an important contribution to the campaign in indyref2.

    And not just to those old folk who happen to have grandkids either. A letter or audio message from some young person should go to every older voter without family urging them to bequeath the young a future with hope.

    (Assuming UKGov allow us to have an indyref2, that is. =wink=)

  163. Dorothy Devine says:

    P.S I see that old dog ,Nicholas Soames is on the Daily Politics – wish I could give him a whistle.

  164. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dorothy Devine
    Bit by bit Dorothy, one by one, get them to doubt the media – and its favourites. Once we do that they might not become YES voters straight away, but they’ll forever doubt the traditional media. That tweet from Prof Curtice is a perfect example of one to use:

    Thanks to @WingsScotland our figures for @Panelbase Sept 2016 now reflect the co’s post-publication corrections.

  165. Phydaux says:

    Does Ruth Davidson ever get her spurs on for her constituents? She doesn’t seem to hold open surgeries and contact is by e-mail only.As a constituent, how could you trust an MSP whose main skill set is lying, hypocrisy and total lack of credibility?

    So glad that Stuart will always hold this disgraceful public servant to account and hope that her constituents try to do so, if she ever finds time to do her day job properly.

  166. yesindyref2 says:

    How many twitter users are there in Scotland? Say 2 million (I don’t use it), then Curtice’s tweet should be retweeted to every single one of them. There shall be no exceptions!

  167. Nana says:


    Lawyer behind Trump petition

    Who will be footing the bill

    Listening to people can’t be a crime

    Seems to me the unionists are ramping up the threats, the scotsman has history woman writing or in her case ranting

  168. Macart says:


    Aye, the press has become the home of some dubious commentators recently. I’m seeing a pattern. 😀

    Not content with the impact of essenpee badness from their usual scribes, they are hiring the more… how to put this… aggressive anti independence voices on the fringe.

    I’m sure their readership will improve no end with this fresh drive to include love, peace and fellowship filled input. 🙂

  169. heedtracker says:

    Thanks Nana, Seems to me the unionists are ramping up the threats, the scotsman has history woman writing or in her case ranting

    Wow! Instead of Prof Jill actual photo, hootsman liggers use a lovely photo of bonny girls capering too. Planet toryboy is just so creepy.

    “THE indy campaign and the EU referendum both ran on ill will, says Jill Stephenson
    I have always been proud of being Scottish. And Scottish is what I am. My parents and grandparents and their parents were all born in Scotland, and all lived their lives in Scotland”


  170. Proud Cybernat says:


    “I’m British.”

  171. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    It was an interesting photo to accompany that “I’m not a tractor” rant in The Scotsman by History Woman. Full of cheering young “no” supporters, even though we all know full well now that support for “no” was heavily biased towards the old rather than the young. But a bunch of cheering old dears just wouldn’t carry the right message somehow, would it?

    And I’m left wondering, in the light of all the betrayals since, how many of the young people in that photo, if they were Scottish, are still feeling like cheering now…

  172. crazycat says:

    @ Capella at 1.58

    o/t Thanks for your reply (I logged off just after posting, which was bad planning – I didn’t see your answer till just now).

    The Co-op’s response is interesting. I went back to our conversation in January and it does seem that the tubs labelled “Scottish” had the appropriate flags, and the ones with the UJs were “British” cream. That is consitent with their explanation.

    Well done for raising it with them, though – it might deter them from any future skullduggery if they realize customers are already watching out for it.

  173. Proud Cybernat says:

    And what is ‘British’ anyway? It’s a pseudo ‘nationality’ for those with an inferiority complex.

    Proud Scot – an nae butsabootit.

  174. DerekM says:

    “THE indy campaign and the EU referendum both ran on ill will, says Jill Stephenson
    I have always been proud of being Scottish. And Scottish is what I am. My parents and grandparents and their parents were all born in Scotland, and all lived their lives in Scotland”

    But… i am an idiot.

  175. sinky says:

    BBC Radio Scot John Beattie show at 1.20 discussing revelations about David Beckham’s knighthood but no mention of the emails saying it would help if he came out for No during the Referendum.

    Why not?

  176. heedtracker says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    6 February, 2017 at 1:14 pm

    Even if you’ve not given Prof Jill much attention, her but, is not going to be very interesting, proud Scot but that is.

    Mhairi Black’s a foul mouthed slut! Welcome aboard Prof Jill, you’re just what UKOK hackdom is lacking these days, have you met Prof Adam yet, he’s a delightful soul from Glasgow uni.

  177. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 lunchtime news, Ian Murray just there, also stoking up terrible ref divisions for Scotland, for his tory BBC masters, Scots white paper was just lots of words that didn’t mean anything says Ian, christ he’s a slimy git too.

    Lunchtime in yoon BBC led hackdom is always good for the digestion.

  178. galamcennalath says:

    Proud Cybernat says:

    And what is ‘British’ anyway? It’s a pseudo ‘nationality’ for those with an inferiority complex.

    For me the acid test lies in the fact that there are those who declare themselves to be North British, in contrast there is no such thing as South British. ‘British’ clearly means two different things to those from each end of this island.

    Those in the North believe there is a Union and that gives them a collective identity above and beyond regions such as Scotland, England, Wales.

    Those in the South believe no such thing, to them there is the synonymous UK/Britain/England.

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    I see Ruth Davidson still hasn’t acknowledged even one of her poll errors on her twitter feed.

    Now THAT’S a surprise!

  180. DerekM says:

    @ sinky

    They must hide the collusion of the BBC,celebrities and a certain Mr Snow.

    We should be playing this one big time could even expose the links between SiU and the BBC.

  181. Dr Jim says:

    Nicola Sturgeon didn’t tell a lie and was proved not to have told a lie and yet we never heard the end of it and still it crops up from time to time that she never told a lie but was she thinking about a lie when she didn’t say anything

    And yet: Ruth Harrison tells giant porkies and nobody utters a syllable in any news anywhere even when corrected by the worlds only respected living psephologist she perseverves with the same lie and doesn’t retract it or correct it in any way shape or form

    Ruth Harrison is now along with her buddies in the Threaten Together campaign suggesting and implying murder mayhem and violence towards those of us who support Independence for our country which by the way she claims is not a country but a sub section of the United Kingdom thereby not even defending the parliament and people she purports to represent who elected her (sort of)to be a member of that parliament

    Fratricide, Scot against Scot, Take up arms, are all quotes from Ruth Harrison David Mundell and Thon stupit Historywoman who’s supposed to be educated for God sake

    2014 Saw arrests for violence from the Unionist side against the public and the police and their horses and an attempt on the former FM Alex Salmonds like (albeit a pathetic one and foiled by officers) but nevertheless the guy had a go

    I have to say this tactic from the British was and is predictable it’s what they do when they know they can’t win by threats, they resort to disruption violence and destruction and then blame it on the other side with the willing assistance of their compliant media

    We on the Independence side of the argument use truth humiliation comedy and a lot of persuasion to try and get our message accross but I’m afraid the Brits are coming to their final solution

  182. yesindyref2 says:

    This is quie funny. Well, not really it’s dangerous but it is funny.

    Exclusive Google is blocking access to the entire NHS network, mistaking the amount of traffic it is currently receiving as a cyber attack.

  183. orri says:

    Been over a week and still no sign of the ERS Scotland regarding tactical voting. Still, given the rise of constituency votes and fall in seats won you might argue that that was due to SNP support becoming less concentrated and Labour / Lib Dem supporters being encouraged to vote Conservative ( and Unionist )

  184. Proud Cybernat says:


    The worm is truly turning.

    Just spoke to a woman (diehard NO in IndyRef1). She lives in Spain but is terrified of UK leaving EU as it will impact on her (and loads of others in Spain) big time. Wants Scotland to stay in the EU and said if there’s another Referendum she’ll definitely be voting YES.

    We’re deffo on our way, peeps and nothing will stop us now!

  185. Brian Powell @10.39
    Feel free to use it any way you want to, Brian.
    I long for the day when somebody in the Scottish Labour Movement starts attacking post Truth Davidson and her LisTory Boys and laying the blame for Scotland’s social and economic decline where it truly lies; with an Arch Right Wing English dominated parliament in London. It makes my blood boil to witness Dugdale, Baillie, and even so called ‘left’ politicians like Findlay, join the Tories in SNP Bad tantrums, when we all know where the cancer lies…New Labour Neo Con neo liberal privateers, who are dead set on destroying Scotland’s civic society.
    If you can’t pay for it, beg from a Charity. That’s the Truth Truth of Ruth Davidson’s evil little party.
    They’d privatise air if they could get away with it. Oh wait, they tried that. The Poll Tax.
    The Union is unsustainable. We cannot stand by and ‘let’ an English Parliament drag us out of Europe like this.
    Whether to Remain or Leave the EU is for the citizens of Scotland alone to decide, post Self Determination.
    Surely to God most young Socialists Up Here see that now.
    I repeat, we desperately need a revitalised Socialist Movement, and not Blair’s Red Tories, or Corbyn’s Militant Marxists.

  186. geeo says:

    Now, i am not a number cruncher at heart, so if i have made any glaring errors here, feel free to point them out…

    The latest Panelbase Poll of voting intentions released yesterday shows that SNP (47%) are polling 5% HIGHER than the Tories (27%) and labour (15%) COMBINED.

    15% of the electorate are intending to vote labour.
    Lets look see what happens if that 15% figure plays out across the country…

    There are 32 directly elected Councils in Scotland and 1,223 elected councillors. (Cosla figures).

    15% of 1223 = 183.45 labour Councillors in total

    183.45 ÷ 32 council areas = 5.7 labour councillors per council area.

    Now, granted, these are average figures and some councils may yield a few more or a few less councillors here and there, but on a 15% share of the vote, labour are in for one hell of a thrashing in May.

    Just for fun….SNP are on 47% of the vote….

    47% of 1223 councillors = 571.81 councillors.

    571.81 ÷ by 32 council areas = 17.96 councillors per council area.

    Even more fun….tories on 27% of the vote….

    27% of 1223 councillors = 330.21 councillors in total.

    330.21 councillors ÷ by 32 council areas = 10.31 councillors per council area.

    Tory and Labour combined (in coalition) would give these figures (bearing in mind they are average figures not exact to specific they could be better in some places and worse in others).

    Tories and labour COMBINED = 513.66 councillors = 16.01 councillors per council.

    SNP = 571.81 Councillors = 17.96 councillors per council area.

    As you can see, not withstanding the effects of independents, lib dems and Greens, the SNP are pretty close to being in a position to win overall control of EVERY council in May.

    Of course, they will not do so, as these are as i said, average figures and regional variances will impact on who controls where, but the Latest Panalbase poll does show how strong the SNP are, going into this election, EVEN IF labour go into coalition with the tories, as is their stated aim, they could STILL be out-numbered by the SNP in loads of councils.

    May 2017 is going to be an absolute slaughter of labour councillors.

    Cannot wait !

  187. galamcennalath says:

    The time may have come for the entire YES side to do two things …

    Firstly, completely and categorically reject anything which could be considered threatening, violent or inciting. Zero tolerance for anything of a violent nature. If anyone steps out of line anywhere, fellow Yessers should tell them to stop it.

    Secondly, call out the elements of the Unionist side who have began to subtly, and not so subtly, rank up the violent language and threats. Individual ‘nobodies’ are bad, but media, politicians, columnists, pundits, are an utter disgrace and they really need to act more responsibly.

    Take the moral high ground? Yes, Scotland doesn’t need their Ulsterisation.

  188. Alba 46 says:

    Davidson lives by the mantra of Goebbels, don’t bother with the small fibs, lie big and keep repeating it. In the end some of the people will believe especially if you have a compliant state broadcaster and sub subservient print media.

    Slab and the Lib Dems are not much better. For the life of me i cannot fathom out why the unionist mob want to be ruled by another country. Are they so insecure and lack conviction that deep down they know full well that they don’t have what it takes to run their own affairs but rely on our colonial masters in london to do it for them.

    Nelson Mandela said
    “there is no passion to be found in playing small – in
    settling for a life that is less than the one you are
    capable of living”.

    I would doubt that the various unionist parties even understand that statement never mind trying to live by it. There total and utter insecurity is quite frightening and pathetic and a betrayal of all the pioneering Scots that went before them.

  189. yesindyref2 says:


    I’d add cut the use of insulting or bodily language about the other side. I don’t know who it’s supposed to impress, but it sure as hell doesn’t impress undecided or soft NOes.

    And bearing in mind hard NOes are coming over to YES, it’s not likely to help them come over to YES either.

    Insulting each other is OK 🙂 😉 O:)

  190. heedtracker says:

    Alba 46 says:
    6 February, 2017 at 2:22 pm
    Davidson lives by the mantra of Goebbels

    Working class girls, grow up in stable homes, council house, NHS health care, pretty good schools, clever girls, work hard, go to good unis, all of it free, at the point of source… one of the girls joins the BBC, gets into politics, within 6 months she’s leader of the tory party in Scotland, a minority outfit all and only for protecting the rich and the privileged, hell bent on destroying the Scottish wealthfare state and everything that she took for granted as hers.

    The other girl grew up to be Nicola Sturgeon.

    Its a clear freakin choice Scotland, no matter how hard all the creeps in the UKOK meeja say you’re all mad, for not voting Truth Davidson.

    Cant beat a good rant on freezing Monday afternoon:D

  191. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Alba 46,

    I think it’s slowly getting through to people that “thinking small” is the best that the Unionists are capable of. And often that best is way too much for them.

    Even some traditional Tory voters are now beginning to conclude that the constant denigrating of all things Scottish by the likes of (T)Ruthless is actually unpatriotic. Shameful even.

    It’s one thing to promote the positives of your cause as you see them. But it’s quite another, and actually a losing game, if the best you can do is besmirch your country and its people in an attempt to frustrate all their hopes of a better future.

  192. Marcia says:

    I see from the above posts that the hysterical historical mad professor thinks there should be a bar of Yes 60% for the coming referendum. Lets make it retrospective. That means the Brexit should fall as it was under 52% that want to leave. If we have another vote on Brexit those campaigning for leave would struggle to get over 50%.

  193. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    … leader of the tory party in Scotland, a minority outfit all and only for protecting the rich and the privileged ,..

    And she pretends otherwise. Their election leaflets in May often didn’t even mention the Tories, it was the Ruth Davidson Party. She has been quite adept at distancing herself and branch from their true nature. And of course the media colluded.

    She, along with Mundell, are the face in Scotland of the mad bad hard right Brexit loving Tory Party. As Brexit unfolds this is something she will find more and more difficult to stand back from. Her teflon will begin to peel.

  194. Chick McGregor says:

    Another example of Post Ruth politics. Jackie Baillie is going to have to up her game if she wants to to regain her title.

  195. Robert Peffers says:

    @liz says: 5 February, 2017 at 10:30 pm:

    “Andra Neil has been on twitter all day, raving about fiscal transfer.
    Cos you know WM just hands us £9bn for no reason.”

    Neil is at the old, old game of quoting just one side of the balance sheet. To see the correct totals of a balance sheet you must consider both sides of the accounts.

    Any state operating a system of fiscal transfer must also be a state operating a fiscal taxation policy. Thus you need both sides of the equation to arrive at either a negative, positive or Fiscally Balanced total.

    That Fiscal balance can best be stated as a per capita GDP and as Scotland’s Per Capita GDP is usually higher than both that of England, Wales, N.I. or the UK as a whole, then Scots, on a per capita basis, are the highest per capita payers of UK tax & Excise in the UK.

    They collect tax from all areas and transfer some of it back to all areas.

    You cannot draw any total area gain or and area total loss unless you are shown both sides of the equation.

    So Auld numptie Neil can be tied up in knots simply by asking him to expose the other side of the equation.

    Like, “Yes Andrew but to show that there is a gain or loss can you tell us what is the total revenue, including the hidden revenue, collected by HM Treasury from Scotland”.

    Then, no matter what figures the auld numptie quotes you can then bring up any one of the many nice wee earning scams operated by Westminster.

    Like, “Does that include the double fiscal taxation differences introduced by charging Scots electricity generating companies more in,’Grid Connection Charges’ while also subsidising those generators in the vicinity of London for the power they each produce”?

    Like everything else Neil claims. he really doesn’t know what he is talking about.

    He’s just a very expensive wee, fat, baldy, budgie pre-programmed to repeat a soundbyte over and over again because some Yoon Loon has told him , “Whose a pretty boy then”.

    Why do you imagine they call it, “Twitter”, Liz?

    If not to let wee, fat, baldy, budgies tweet away all day, to their heart’s content, and then shit all over their cage floor.

  196. Robert Peffers says:

    @freedo says: 5 February, 2017 at 10:48 pm:

    ” … who or what instigates these checks?”

    Rev. Stuart Campbell – just for starters, freedo.

    Alert readers and other commenters on WoS too.

  197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Marcia @ 14:59

    I see from the above posts that the hysterical historical mad professor thinks there should be a bar of Yes 60% for the coming referendum.

    Yes, the all-too-predictable next Unionist line of defence, after the “you can’t have it” ploy inevitably fails.

    The 1979 Labour MP Cunningham “poison pill” ploy revisited. But we’re haein’ nae mair o’ that devilry.

    The antidote is just as you say: the Brexit result.

  198. Lenny Hartley says:

    Heed, don’t think Ruth Harrison could be said to have working class roots, unless you include Daddy being MD of a Distillery as working Class!

    Fife Wossers Look out for my bike’s photo appearing in Fife Free Press in the next few weeks, in relation to an event at Beveridge Park in May. You can tell it’s my bike as it has a certain Sticker on it 🙂

  199. Meg merrilees says:

    Stoker @9.02 am
    I appreciate your information regarding petitions.

    May I say that you choose a strange argument when you try to dismiss one person’s case and substitute another for consideration.

    Robert has actually lived in Scotland for 34 years and was being held in Colnbrook detention centre prior to deportation today. I’m not aware that his case was presented on the BBC either, along with many others that we never hear about but as a fellow musician I felt an affinity with his plight.

    I don’t want to get into an argument about which case is more deserving as I think both cases are a disgraceful way to treat any person, especially someone who has lived and worked and chosen to be a participant in this country or any country.

    Will I choose to ignore them – NO!

    If the Government chooses to ignore them , I can’t help that but if the subject can see that some people have signed a petition supporting them ( whether it achieves it’s stated aim or not) then I will sign in the knowledge that I am least giving them and their families some recognition and hopefully some sustenance in their time of need.

  200. Proud Cybernat says:

    Always Read the Small Print…

  201. Breeks says:

    They have tried this before.

    Remember the NI thugs outside Nicola’s parliamentary office? Going to teach her a lesson as I recall. Wasn’t there also the sight of uniformed British soldiers playing up to the Rangers crowd around the same time? 2013 Armed Forces day wasn’t it?

    Be nice to think the sectarian divide and conquer is a busted flush, and I’m not sure how much actual leverage can be brought into play to ramp up the tension between Unionist and Independentist.

    I think the biggest battle the Unionists are going to have is a battle in their heads between self delusion and the objective reality of events. There is going to a lot more uncomfortable realism for Unionists to deal with in Indyref2 than there was in 2014.

    They stood by the Union in 2014, and the Union has shown them it’s gratitude by doing absolutely nothing, not a single thing, to bolster the myth that Scotland would be rewarded for its “loyalty”. Thanks Scotland, now sit down, shut up, and remember where your place is.

    I’ve never really grasped the rewards of being a Unionist. I mean, ermine and a life of idle privilege for the few, but nothing for the rank and file. I suppose I can appreciate the unquestioning loyalty of a dog to serve its master to the last, but to have that as a lifelong aspiration just defies my understanding. To have it as a lifelong aspiration for your children, and your children’s children, turns it into something malignant and objectionable.

    Well Mr or Mrs Unionist, whether you approve of it or not, Independence is going to bring your children deliverance from your fears and prejudices, and hopefully replace the inner hate passed down from father to son with outer self confidence, a place in the world amongst friends and equals, and a proper, honourable country of their own to believe in. If wanting that for you and your kin makes me your enemy, then my sad deluded fool of a brother, you will have to reason things out for yourself, but I won’t be raising my hand against you.

  202. heedtracker says:

    galamcennalath says:
    6 February, 2017 at 3:10 pm
    heedtracker says:

    I get tory voters though. I grew up with tory voting friends, work mates, relatives etc and I get that the system that they have before them has and does work for them, money, security, class, safety, opportunity, ability to make professional success of themselves, that they take for granted. All of that is what the tory vote wants to preserve and clearly, lefty progressive Scottish democracy is a possible threat to it, not that much, but tory vote ensures the life styles of the middle and upper classes are not affected much at all. A lot of tory voters even game the system with private schools, and look at the tory horrors El Tone or the Flipper, what they produce.

    And yet in slams Truth Davidson. Which I do not get.

  203. Robert Peffers says:

    @freedo says: 5 February, 2017 at 10:57 pm:

    “I should have added that I don’t do twitter, but if any on here feel inclined, perhaps they might tweet Ms Davidson and challenge her.
    Might get an interesting response!”

    If you look towards the top right hand side, (here on the Wings blog), Under the heading, “Tweets”. You will observe that the Rev. Stuart Campbell does just that and puts the tweets here for Wingers to read. Mind you it may not just be the, “Not Tory Party Leader”, @Ruth Harrison he engages in twitersation with.

    Can’t be bothered with it myself. Far too many twits tweeting twaddle for my taste.

  204. Vestas says:

    I hope the Labour/LibDems continue to haemmorrhage voters to the Tories for two reasons :

    1) Its going to make the BBC look even more biased when it comes to televised “discussions” where they’re going to have to give equal time to LibDems/Greens/SLAB(stop laughing at the back you BBC Shortbread viewers);

    2) Its going to make a nice simple online meme – “Voting No? You’re a tory, end of story” followed up with a load of images of tory polices which ScotGov have mitigated & how in an indy Scotland we could do more.

    In theory this should be a slam-dunk indyref.

    However I suspect the elephant in the room will be Trump, who I am 100% certain has assured May that the USA will not recognise Scotland (or some such nonsense). It’ll be legally delusional but the yoon MSM will push it for all its worth. Having said that I have doubts about whether anyone will care what the USA says by 2018.

  205. liz says:

    @Robert Peffers- Thanks for that.
    I, and others did ask sensible questions which were of course ignored.

    He chucked about some insults, like – you’re drinking the bucky early today – and waited for someone to react.

    Of course they did, so he claimed the moral high ground.

    On a different topic – I’m fairly sure I read a while back about a particular journalist,(in the news at the moment) who doorstepped a young lad and tried to get him sacked for some drunken rant about ‘the English’.

    Said journo worked for NotW, I think, but can’t find any info on line.Does this ring a bell with anyone?

  206. Stoker says:

    Meg merrilees wrote on 6 February, 2017 at 3:39 pm:

    “May I say that you choose a strange argument when you try to dismiss one person’s case and substitute another for consideration.”

    I did no such thing, they are your words not mine. It was crystal clear to everyone that i was dismissing the commercial cons that are commercial petition sites.

    It can be more than frustrating, and sometimes very suspicious, when someone like myself goes to the trouble of exposing things like this and providing the factual evidence, only for another ‘Winger’ some time later to start putting the links to those sites back up on here. You also wrote….

    “I don’t want to get into an argument about which case is more deserving as I think both cases are a disgraceful way to treat any person,”

    Nor do i, my post clearly shows that i wasn’t attempting to. I was pointing out what should be more concerning to us, the way a Scottish detention centre was being used by the Westminster establishment. Everyone of those cases bother me simply because they are being carried out on Scottish soil by a foreign aggressor. Finally, you wrote….

    “if the subject can see that some people have signed a petition supporting them ( whether it achieves it’s stated aim or not) then I will sign in the knowledge that I am least giving them and their families some recognition and hopefully some sustenance in their time of need.”

    How do you know they get to see that you’ve signed a powerless petition? Why not write them a personal letter of support? No, Meg, i’m not out to argue with you either but i will always object to Wingers being exposed to these commercial cons and if other Wingers are going to throw my efforts back in my face then i’ll just have to keep educating the newbies and lurkers.

    You may have noticed that i deliberately avoided using yours or anyone else’ name in my comment post, that was to show that my intentions was not a personal attack on any individual. I think you’ve got a reasonable knowledge of me by now Meg and know that if i had a beef with you i would make that clear, most probably by naming you or some sort of derogatory remark aimed at you.

    Private petition companies are commercial cons and if you want to sign them then that’s your lookout but can i ask that you don’t bring them on to WOS and not expect me or others not to say something about them.

    WOS is all about TRUTH not deception!

  207. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scot Finlayson says: 5 February, 2017 at 11:04 pm:

    ” … so knighthoods could still be up for grabs and we will still have an establishment that sees glory in such silly things.”

    That is a matter of opinion, Scot. To get the matter into perspective we have to look at it from the legal POV.

    Her Majesty is the Monarch of the Kingdom of England and, Under English law, that means she has sovereign powers but only in, “her”, three country Kingdom of England, but under only English law, she was made to legally delegate the sovereignty of the Kingdom of England to only the Kingdom of England’s parliament.

    That Kingdom of England’s Parliament sat ans dissolved itself in April 1707 and there has never been another Parliament of England convened ever since.

    On 1 May 1707 a Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain was opened at Westminster. Since then not a single member has been elected to a parliament of England.

    Under Scots law the people of Scotland are sovereign and the monarch is the protector of the people’s sovereignty and, as sovereign, the people can sack a monarch who does not protect their sovereignty. Furthermore, there is now a legally elected parliament of Scotland who, obviously, are delegated the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

    Now here’s the thing – The Parliament of the United Kingdom has assumed by itself that it holds sovereignty over Scotland but it runs itself as the de facto parliament of England and it treats the Kingdom of Scotland as just one other dominion of the country of England and just as a country like Wales or N.I. that are actually parts of the Kingdom of England.

    Now,(at risk of being incarcerated in the Tower of London, or perhaps even Hung, Drawn, Quartered and having my entrails cut out and roasted on a fire before my eyes), I have to accuse the Queen of England of NOT protecting the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty and call upon the sovereign people of Scotland to have our elected and delegated Parliamentarians sack and replace our present monarch who is failing in her sworn duty.

    Is that a Black Helicopter I hear in the distance?

  208. galamcennalath says:

    Vestas says:

    I suspect the elephant in the room will be Trump, who I am 100% certain has assured May that the USA will not recognise Scotland

    If they are becoming besties, then perhaps.

    Meanwhile, the elephant in the other corner is the EU.

    They’ve been quiet. However once Article 50 happens, I think we will hear a lot more from them. While the UK has been evasive or indecisive or both, I expect the EU to be more open and clear on how they feel about Brexit.

    I hope in a Scottish context they will be willing to stick by, and stick up for, a small nation who say they want to continue to be in the EU. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

    Normally the EU won’t interfere in the internal politics of a member, however that isn’t really the situation here post Article 50.

    14 of the 28 members became independent in the 20thC, a further two in the 19thC. And two, Italy and German only got together in the 19thC. They should understand what Scotland is about.

    All we need to do is get our act together and vote Yes.

  209. Bob MACK says:

    How extraordinary. John Berrow has just stated that as Speaker he refuses to let Trump address Westminster because he is a racist and bigot. A thunderous round of applause from the SNP ,which he accepted in good grace. Amazing

  210. Vestas says:

    @ galamcennalath :

    Its really a case of tempus fugit in all sorts of ways.

    As soon as A50 gets declared then we’ll see what we see.

    The French renting a building for a consulate is good but if Le Pen gets in then who knows.

    The Netherlands are looking fairly dodgy too in terms of Eurosceptiscism.

    If its an indyref with just England/Wales saying “fuck the EU” then that’s one thing. If France goes that way & Germany continues its historic interest in all things East* then who knows.

    Best to get on with it really 🙂

    *odd how many ex-German politicians (chancellors even!) end up on the boards of things like, oh I dunno, Gazprom for example excusing things like the invasion of Crimea.

  211. Capella says:

    Just watched the Speaker of the Commons state his strong opposition to Donald Trump addressing the Commons. Also stated his opposition to racism and misogyny and importance of the independence of the judiciary.

    Great applause form the Labour and SNP MPS. Stony silence from the Tories. Well worth a watch. Approx at 16:50 in the proceedings:

  212. freedo says:

    Thanks for the info at 3:47 but I’m afraid I’m disinclined to spend time scrolling thru yards of stuff in the off-chance of finding enlightenment. That’s why I don’t do twitter. What’s your reason? ‘Twas only a nudge to any that have that sort of dedication to have a go.

  213. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links now showing over on O/T.

  214. yesindyref2 says:

    90 more likes for Germany for Indy, 110 for Netherlands since the National article.

    I don’t do facebook (or Twit), but they could do with even more likes …

  215. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Robert Peffers @ 4.30pm

    Well said (again) Sir, however, in your final paragraph, should it not be Elizabeth, Queen of Scots, you should be accusing of not protecting the People of Scotland’s sovereignty?

    Custom and practice has it that the Queen of England does what her Parliament tells her – since she agreed to cede her Divine Right to rule to that Parliament.

    With the People of Scotland, being Sovereign – the Queen of Scots has to do what her people tell her, or risk the boot.

    I have long held, the Act of Union might well be the principal battle-ground over Independence. This scenario Robert Peffers has put forward reinforces that belief.

  216. galamcennalath says:

    Vestas says:

    The French … if Le Pen gets in then who knows. The Netherlands are looking fairly dodgy too in terms of Eurosceptiscism.

    I have a funny feeling that Brexit will serve many purposes to the EU mainstream and one may well be … “look at the UK, this is what you can expect if vote for the mad bad right!”

    I expect the Brexiteers to be demonised along with Trump’s lot if they carry through some of their more extreme rhetoric. Europe has had more historical experience, up close and personal, with the hard right than anywhere else, I think the mainstream (many of whom are pretty right anyway) will want to avoid the nutty fringe gaining too much power.

    It may not pan out quite like that, but in the global contest between the hard right representedby the UK and US, Scotland should be on the democratic centre’s side.

    We’ll see soon enough !

  217. stewartb says:

    Many thanks Capella @5.03pm for the alert.

    Quite a performance from the Speaker of the HoC – just wow!

    Contrast this with what had happened a few minutes earlier, when two Tory backbenchers got all upset that Clerks in the Chamber would no longer need to wear wigs!!

  218. Robert Peffers says:

    I’m not sure if Wingers realise that what is actually going on in the USA amounts to. However, I see it as a fundamental constitutional crisis situation very like what happened here in the United Kingdom.

    I refer to the Donald Trump election as President and subsequent events now unfolding before our eyes. I may be wrong but here is how I see it.

    The USA is exactly what it’s title says it is – a single country that is formed by what was originally many independent states.

    Furthermore, it not only broke away from England but it also had a civil war before it became a single federal country.

    At present its legal system has two legal systems. It has State Law and Federal Law and federal law overrules State law and state laws differ state to state.

    So Trump is attempting to claim that the President has sovereignty over both state & federal law. Legally he has not.

    We see this with the Donald’s own personal decree that certain Muslim Country’s citizens are denied entry to the USA. Under what legal system has he done so is the big question and that has now become a fundamental constitutional battle for control that could very well reverberate around the World.

    At least two States have used Federal Law to overrule the Presidential decree on the grounds that it is against Federal law. So if Federal law does NOT allow a USA President to do as the USA President personally dictates is a USA legal stance where does that leave the USA claims that their resident is the most powerful person in the World?

    This is much like how Westminster has set itself up as the de facto parliament of England against any form of legal system in the United Kingdom.

    The present system is certainly not a bipartite United Kingdom and the country of England is, not in itself, the Kingdom of England. Like the USA President, Westminster has just grabbed for itself the powers it now claims it legally wields.

    The biggest difference between the two situations is that in the USA both State law and Federal law are now making a stance against the elected president who is claiming he has sovereignty over them both.

    In the United Kingdom the Supreme Court, that Westminster itself set up, is backing Westminster’s claim to have sovereign power over everyone else as the de facto parliament of England. That is The Supreme Court is backing the claim of Westminster that it is the de facto parliament of the country of England but while operating as the parliament of the country of England it is calling itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom but if the Kingdom of Scotland no longer exists then there cannot now be two kingdoms to form a United Kingdom.

  219. Capella says:

    @ stewartb – yes the Speaker was quite adamant and glared directly at the Tory benches while making his point about equality under the law. The cheers and clapping from the opposition was spontaneous. I heard a Tory complain about the clapping!

    Here’s the link again. You need to scroll along to approx 16:52

    Commons now debating the European Union Notification of Withdrawal Bill.

  220. Meg merrilees says:

    Stoker @ 4.24

    Handshake offered.

    My post to you @ 3.39 was not intended as a personal attack, but as an explanation of my opinion. Since it was my post @ 1.30am that was being addressed by your comments, I felt I had to respond to you directly.

    No offence meant and hopefully none taken.


  221. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    BBC TV news at 18:00 making a Big Thing about the NHS in dire straights.

    Just waiting for the howls of protest from Ruthie & Co. demanding resignations.

    Oh, wait a mo, it’s the NHS in England (though the report never said so).

    I won’t be holding my breath waiting for the Blue/Red/Yellow Tory calls for heads to roll, then…

  222. Robert Peffers says:

    @Socrates MacSporran says: 6 February, 2017 at 5:25 pm

    “Well said (again) Sir, however, in your final paragraph, should it not be Elizabeth, Queen of Scots, you should be accusing of not protecting the People of Scotland’s sovereignty?”

    Well spotted, (again), Socrates, but I thought about it before posting. The monarch has lots of titles besides the two in the narrative and she is all of them at once. My thoughts were that I should accuse her as the Queen of England. As it is as Queen of England she is allowing England, (the country), to claim over-lordship over the Kingdom of Scotland and over two of the three countries of Her Kingdom of England.

    In any case it is irrelevant as her sovereignty over the Kingdom of England is held by the defunct Parliament of England that last sat in 1707. This is the very thing that needs to be legally thrashed out.

    If, as is claimed by Westminster, the Treaty of Union made only two kingdoms into a United Kingdom and that, “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland then it must also have extinguished the Kingdom of England in creating the United Kingdom. It cannot legally be both at once.

    Yet it now undoubtedly functions as the de facto parliament of the country of England and it even excludes all others from interfering with its functioning as the parliament of England by EVEL.

    It thus cannot be the United Kingdom as that Parliament has disunited the two kingdoms and assumes itself to be the country of England ruling over the other three countries.

    It isn’t up to me to decide what Her Majesty is – only she can decide it – and it is time she did just that.

  223. Breeks says:

    galamcennalath says:
    6 February, 2017 at 5:30 pm
    Vestas says:

    The French … if Le Pen gets in then who knows. The Netherlands are looking fairly dodgy too in terms of Eurosceptiscism.

    I have a funny feeling that Brexit will serve many purposes to the EU mainstream and one may well be … “look at the UK, this is what you can expect if vote for the mad bad right!”….

    Funny, but whenever you browse for information about Le Pen or the AfD in Germany, you are never far away from an “Express” headline. The vast majority of links take you to Express articles too. The Express really is a poisonous piece of work with tentacles everywhere.

    The BBC of late is curiously more liberal in its opinion of Le Pen, largely because she is, or was, the French Brexiteer. La Penn however, post Brexit, has toned down her exit referendum rhetoric, and favours reform.

    And even if Le Pen is successful, it seems her capacity to bring down the EU might be overstated.

    To quote:

    “…The French Republic’s political system is so fashioned that parliamentary elections tend to be seen as a sideshow to the all-important race for the presidency. Under the Fifth Republic, they have generally handed the newly elected president a majority in parliament, and thus a chance to form a like-minded government. That pattern would be disrupted should the presidential election offer a surprise in May. While an upset by Le Pen or Macron cannot be excluded, neither would command a natural majority in parliament: the former because her National Front party has no chance of winning a majority of seats, the latter because he doesn’t even have a party.”…..

    Consequently, it is very difficult to guage precisely what threat of disintegration the EU is or is not facing. However, take everything “Express” related out of the picture, and you see Europe struggling to cope with a huge influx or refugees. The numbers involved are testing Europe’s capacity to cope, and do feed right wing tensions and xenophobia, however the assertion that Europe is on the point of collapse seems a somewhat creative agenda given legs by opportunistic shit stirrers like the Express.

    Time will tell of course, but Brexit seems bound to get worse, and the worse it gets, the less pressure the EU comes under.

  224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 18:15:

    …only she can decide it – and it is time she did just that.

    Well, frankly, no it’s not.

    The last thing we need right now is another totally irrelevant diversion. The future of the monarchy may come under consideration when her present maj. “pops her clogs”. And we may pray it’s not until well after independence so we can decide how to proceed without being overruled yet again by a foreign government that we never voted for.

    Please, stow this stuff. Personal hobbyhorses like this are just not helpful.

  225. Brian Powell says:

    The Union is dead, not only to us but to the Westminster parties, they think there is just England and the others will tag along regardless.

    Scots let that happen.

  226. Robert Kerr says:

    SLAB against Brexit.

    Any comments WoSers?

  227. heedtracker says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    6 February, 2017 at 3:37 pm
    Heed, don’t think Ruth Harrison could be said to have working class roots, unless you include Daddy being MD of a Distillery as working Class!

    No way! I did not know that. Well that’s what you get for ranting.

  228. heedtracker says:

    Wow. Not all tories be crazy, Bercow just moved up in the world of sanity and reason.

  229. galamcennalath says:

    Brian Powell says:

    The Union is dead, not only to us but to the Westminster parties, they think there is just England and the others will tag along regardless. Scots let that happen.

    I now wonder if there ever really was much of a Union. Those in the south didn’t even think about it. In Scotland, Unionism was little more than a comfort blanket for Proud-Scots-buts.

    Unionism is really a Scottish concept (and NI). There are no Unionists in England. It’s just not part of their thinking.

  230. heedtracker says:

    Court puts hold on Muslim ban and,

    Donald J. Trump ?@realDonaldTrump 22h22 hours ago
    Just cannot believe a judge would put our country in such peril. If something happens blame him and court system. People pouring in. Bad!

    You thought we had some right roasters in the UK zone.

  231. galamcennalath says:



    Stony response from the Tories, there. Does that imply that the Tories en masse would have liked Trump to speak in parliament? They are worse than I thought.

    Yes, well done Bercow!

  232. heedtracker says:

    galamcennalath says:
    6 February, 2017 at 6:56 pm

    Aye, took balls that. Its a big deal too. There goes the knighthood. Just shows you they’re not all Ruth Davidson grade troughing far right lick spittles. Chances are Trump’s going to be impeach quite soon anyway, by the GOP.

  233. GRC says:

    Ref Jill Stevenson article in Scotsman, I note that this she is part of the Scotsman 200 where the Scotsman is looking to have 200 people who would contribute regularly to the paper. They say they want to provide a platform for the views and experiences of people from all walks of Scottish life. Perhaps Stuart would be interested in offering to join the 200!

  234. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Robert Peffers @ 6.15pm

    Thanks for the explanation of your thinking, I can follow what you are getting at.

    I just wonder, however, given that every Act passed by the UK Parliament does not become law until it receives the Royal Assent, ie, is signed-off by HM; what would happen if, after a bill which is passed by the anti-Scottish majority at Westminster, but which obviously is bad for Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon and Angus Robertson go to the Palace and instruct Elizabeth Queen of Scots: “This bill is bad for Scotland, we, as the representatives of the sovereign people of Scotland are instructing you, as Queen only by our permission – NOT to sign-off this law”.

    Custom and practice has it, the Queen has to do what Parliament tells her, since her predecessor on the throne, good old King Billy, traded-off his Divine Right of Kings to the English Parliament, in return for the throne of England.

    But, given the Scottish people are sovereign, she should do what we the people tell her.

    I have always said, the Act of Union will be the main battle-ground in the final Independence battle.

  235. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have mentioned, on Wings before, that I am in email contact with a class-mate from school, who exchanged Auchinleck for Brighton. We have avoided politics of late, but, over the weekend, the subject came up again.

    What follows is his latest missive to me.

    Thanks for the info on the status of the newspapers. I wonder why so many are hostile, nearly all of the main ones. Could it be that the SNP is in fact an easy target?
    Your comparisons between the Scotrail and the franchises in England are nonsense. The bluebell railway in Sussex probably carries more passengers than Scotrail.
    Furthermore the Scottish NHS is miniscule compared to the English NHS and has none of the major issues like health tourism. NHS England is a global much misused organisation. I see today that a patient in Dumfries has been in hospital for a year, so what is the terrific Scottish NHS doing about bed -blocking. The SNP is responsible for running the show. Playing Politics with the NHS the same as in England.
    In truth, the SNP have not delivered, and the Nippy Sweetie knows it. If you are so keen on a second referendum “bring it on”. She won’t because she and all the sensible Scots know it will be the same result.
    Scottish devolution was just another of Tony Blair’s mistakes, same as Iraq, Care in the Community, Ireland, NHS, too many to mention.
    Brexit will work and The Donald will shake things up if he is not impeached or assassinated. So stop moaning and get on with sorting out the wrongs in Scotland.
    I was right on the Scottish Referendum, Brexit and Trump, so  get  working and keep house prices and income tax down. Thank your lucky stars you can breath clean air and get the health of the nation sorted out
    You know it makes sense.

    How do we counter the ignorance and stupidity of such Anglo-Scots? I can no longer be bothered correcting his false imressions. It seems to do no good.

  236. Legerwood says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    6 February, 2017 at 6:12 pm
    “”BBC TV news at 18:00 making a Big Thing about the NHS in dire straights.

    Oh, wait a mo, it’s the NHS in England (though the report never said so).””

    At the start of the report the name of the hospital was clearly stated so it was known from the start that it was covering an NHS England Hospital. At the end of the report there was a short discussion in the studio. During this the reporter said that the situation in the other NHS bodies were also under pressure but we’re each taking a variety of approaches to deal with it.

  237. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heedtracker @ 19:04:

    There goes the knighthood.

    From PM TM probably. But less sure about the Palace. Judging by Witchell’s unusual little disclaimer the other day, maybe Bercow is not the only one feeling rather put upon by this hasty post-Brexit cringing to Trump!

    Strange days indeed.

  238. HandandShrimp says:

    Think Bercow has just made the head of every right wing hack in the UK explode…including Piers Squarehead Spongepants.

    Well done that man.

  239. Stoker says:

    Meg merrilees wrote on 6 February, 2017 at 5:59 pm

    “Handshake offered…No offence meant and hopefully none taken.”

    Don’t be daft!

  240. heedtracker says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    6 February, 2017 at 7:19 pm
    heedtracker @ 19:04:
    There goes the knighthood.

    Don’t the Speakers go straight to the Lords anyway? Mind ex Lab Speaker Baroness Boothroyd OM PC? As one of the saps that voted Lab 97, on all kinds of Westminster reform Labour bullshit, it was a bit of a culture shock listening to Betty rage at just the idea of Lords reform, as it loomed in her near future.

  241. Socrates MacSporran says:

    heedtracker @7.04pm

    You wrote: “There goes the knighthood”

    Won’t worry Bercow, when he gives-up the Speaker’s role, will not get a mere K, the job carries an automatic Life Peerage, he will not be ‘Sir John Bercow’, he will be ‘Lord Bercow of Somewhere or Other’.

    I mean, if they gave one to “Gorbals Mick” Martin, an uncouth Sweatie, they can hardly refuse to enoble a former Tory MP.

  242. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Legerwood @ 19:17:

    At the start of the report the name of the hospital was clearly stated so it was known from the start that it was covering an NHS England Hospital.

    You are correct. I should have written “explicitly stated”. I’m not sure though how many viewers in Scotland would necessarily have made the required distinction from that info snippet. Explicitly saying “NHS (in) England” is easily enough done but is often omitted and simply left to the viewer to work out if they are alert enough.

    The attitude of the report was also markedly different from what we typically get from Reporting Scotland. That was the main brunt of my comment. It’s one thing to talk honestly about real problems, which do exist, and it might even be helpful to viewers across the whole of the UK if meaningful comparisons were made in detail of these different approaches and how well or otherwise they are working. On the contrary, practice outwith England is usually given token reference and little more.

    It’s quite another thing however to use problems, real or confected, merely as a convenient rod by which people like Ruthless Harrison can beat the Scottish Government, which is far too often all that we get from Reporting Scotland.

  243. Rock says:

    Meg merrilees,

    ” Please can people sign this petition. A young Kenyan man in Glasgow, due to marry in 6 days is to be deported from Scotland on the 5.25 flight tomorrow.”

    Unfortunately, he will not be the first one, nor the last one.

    If we were “sovereign”, we would have our own immigration policy.

  244. heedtracker says:

    I mean, if they gave one to “Gorbals Mick” Martin, an uncouth Sweatie, they can hardly refuse to enoble a former Tory MP.

    Indeed, but that guys biggest claim to fame is spending several million tax payers quid on legal fees, trying to block the spectacular MP’s expenses scandal getting publish by the torygraph for gawds sake. It worked for quite a long time too.

  245. I knew speaker John Bercow a bit when I was election agent for the SNP in Motherwell South and he was the Tory candidate. Very much his own man and interesting company.He pointed out he was up contesting a no hope seat in Scotland as that was how the Tories trained their candidates before letting some of them go for more winnable seats.
    He told me that had he been Scots he would probably be in the SNP.

  246. heedtracker says:

    If we were “sovereign”, we would have our own immigration policy.

    You need a written constitution to get to be sovereign Rock and you need to be sovereign to get a constitution, Rock.

    Who writes Scots Law Rock?

  247. Rock says:


    “Please guard your personal details and avoid these private companies like the plague.”

    Hundreds of thousands on the street in Romania forced the government to change its mind.

    In this rotten to the core “union of kingdoms”, millions marched to prevent an illegal war but were ignored.

    Petitions achieve nothing.

  248. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Since I have brought “Gorbals Mick” Martin back to these threads, I have had a thought.

    Was Michael Martin MP the highest-flying “Low flying Jimmy ever?”


  249. heedtracker says:

    He told me that had he been Scots he would probably be in the SNP.

    Its not an actual requirement. Angus Robertson, from Wimbledon, although I probably got that wrong. Fake news.

    Anyone else watching UK hacks like C4 news explainerising US fake news, right now?

    They have some freakin front, does UKOK hackdom.

  250. Dan Huil says:

    OT [overtime, ha ha] Just heard Ruth Harristhingy has congratulated Atlanta Falcons on their Superbowl victory.

  251. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “He told me that had he been Scots he would probably be in the SNP.”

    Is that the same speaker Bercow that told off SNP MPs for clapping at a splendid speech by an SNP MP, but has no problem with the braying of Tory and Labour MPs?

  252. Rock says:


    “You need a written constitution to get to be sovereign Rock and you need to be sovereign to get a constitution, Rock.”

    So you are admitting that Scotland is NOT “sovereign”?

  253. yesindyref2 says:

    Apparently, you can buy Brighton rock for 75p a stick, so you’d get change from a sovereign, if they carried any money. You can get 10 for £6.50. The rock gets cheaper in quantity as well.

  254. Rock says:


    “Who writes Scots Law Rock?”

    Stop being like Nick Robinson of the BBC.

    Your meaningless waffle was exposed on the article “Bringing it on”.

    Go back and read it there.

  255. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    6 February, 2017 at 8:13 pm

    Now, what did we all say at the weekend Rock, being nice is cool.

    If you dont know just say so, and I will fill you in. But just say.

  256. Stu Mac says:

    @Alba 46 says:
    6 February, 2017 at 2:22 pm
    For the life of me I cannot fathom out why the unionist mob want to be ruled by another country.

    It is a common human failing. When you are used to something and especially if you have gained from it in the past – or think you have anyway – it is very difficult to give up. Sometimes you don’t want to admit that what you thought was good for you no longer is (or never really was) – people hate to admit they’ve been wrong.

    This in part also explains why Labour took so long to reach its death throes. Many people knew it had become corrupt and right wing but just kept hoping it would change. But slowly over the years support drifted away until it reached a tipping point and then …

    Of course some of the politicians and media folk you refer to don’t really believe in the rightness of their cause; they only care about keeping a cosy situation (for themselves) going regardless of whether or not it’s good for the rest of us.

  257. yesindyref2 says:

    Cover up your waffle or it’ll get stale. And don’t forget to turn your toaster down or it’ll burn up. The waffle that is.

    I like mine with jam and cream. Delicious!

  258. Bob MACK says:

    Can I suggest an article written by Peter Thomson, which was posted on Wings on 4th August 2012.
    It is called “Sovereignty for Dummies”
    It fully explains the situation rather well.

  259. yesindyref2 says:

    The toaster that is.

  260. Valerie says:


    I’m afraid your Brighton friend is a lost cause, for whatever reason. I wouldn’t discuss politics, and just enjoy whatever else the friendship offers, if that’s your choice.

    It’s noticeable on Twitter, we have a fresh assault on Indy supporters, and I’m blocking like mad, life is too short, and you only need to read a few tweets, to know what the game is.

    I’m on Twitter to interact with journalists, our MPs and help share good stuffs. I also cross post good info memes from FB.

    Not wasting my time on zoomers, some choose to do it.

  261. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    6 February, 2017 at 8:27 pm
    Cover up your waffle or it’ll get stale. And don’t forget to turn your toaster down or it’ll burn up. The waffle that is.

    I like mine with jam and cream. Delicious!

    Lol. I knew Rock’s been winging it with Robert up there. Its three very simple questions with three very simple answers.

  262. yesindyref2 says:

    I know one just like that came up for a small gathering of friends and family and was giving out the same stuff in an angry way. Everyone just nodded and let him rabbit on. His understanding of Scotland was 20 years out of date.

    Perhaps he could be invited to a load of undecideds social gatherings?

  263. yesindyref2 says:

    It takes a geologist to get information out of a rock.

    Sounds like a call for … wait for it … Neil Oliver!

  264. heedtracker says:

    Graun news, what Truth Davidson will do to Scots when she does take power. Also creepy, why cant tory press actually say out loud, English university education is now privatised?

    Higher education

    Universities minister announces sale of student loan book
    Critics question assurances that move will have no impact on those paying off loans and will generate £12bn for the exchequer

  265. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    6 February, 2017 at 8:49 pm
    It takes a geologist to get information out of a rock.

    Sounds like a call for … wait for it … Neil Oliver!

    Rock’s a legal eagle, or a budgie maybe. The legal budgie.

  266. heedtracker says:

    O/T Another red tory catastrofuck, Aberdeen again, Wullie the Scotland flag banning, Alex Salmond banning UKOK roaster of Aberdeen, Young.

    Wullie and the gang blew over £100 million on another ACC giant white elephant eyesore, massive local opposition brushed aside, and now,

    “Only 10% of offices in a £107m development in Aberdeen are earmarked for use, according to SNP councillors in the city.

    The SNP group said there could be “catastrophic consequences” for council taxpayers if large areas of Marischal Square remained vacant.”

  267. Lenny Hartley says:

    Socrates MacSporran

    I spoke to a no voter at the weekend and first thing since pre referendum asked him if he was reconsidering, no never was his reply, Fraid about 30% of us are lost causes, mind you they will be like reformed smokers post Indy boring the tits off us slagging of Westminster, etc

  268. HandandShrimp says:

    I see that Struth Haribo is now in the process of selling out the promised powers that would come to Scotland in the event of Brexit.

    She is back to the “line in the sand” anti-devolution Tory that we all knew lurked in there. Just as she would have happily sold Scotland down the river on the Scotland Bill budget she will sell Scotland down the river on agriculture and fisheries.

    Struth is a Tory…first last and forever. I can’t believe there are former Labour voters that are contemplating voting for her even for a moment. What are they thinking? They might as well shove a puff adder down their underpants.

  269. Another Union Dividend says:

    More evidence that Labour’s Ian Murray is a very sleekit individual.

  270. Another Union Dividend says:

    Panelbase Poll shows 61% believe Scotland will become independent

    Panelbase have updated their datasets, thus solving the mystery of yesterday’s tweet from Jason Allardyce suggesting that the public believe Scottish independence to be “inevitable”. That turns out to be a reference to the re-asking of a question that has been posed before (and with unchanged wording, thus making a direct comparison with the previous poll possible).

    38% (+3) believe Scotland is likely to become independent within 5-10 years
    16% (-2) believe Scotland is likely to become independent, but not for at least 10-15 years
    7% (-1) believe Scotland is likely to become independent, but not for at least 20-30 years
    27% (+1) do not believe Scotland is likely to become independent in the next few decades
    13% (n/c) don’t know

    That means a total of 61% expect independence within the next few decades. A clear majority (54%) selected one of the first two options, which in spite of the imprecise wording appears to imply that they expect independence within two decades at the absolute most. And that’s with the don’t knows taken into account – if they’re stripped out, more than 43% of the sample expect independence within just five or ten years.

  271. pool9 says:

    Umm – this became a huge TLDR moment – but I’m buggered if I’m going to delete it. You have been warned.

    Socrates MacSporran @7:17pm

    There are none so blind as those that will not see.

    All you can do is keep presenting objective, truthful information.

    People are reluctant to let go of long held beliefs. And if internalised far enough, will actively resist being told the truth, for being forced to realise that they have swallowed lies and misinformation all their lives, and have championed it, is something so uncomfortable for people that they will actively avoid confronting the conflict within themselves. Easier to continue to protect the lies they have been told, because in a sense they are protecting themselves, their own psychological integrity.

    This is why winning hearts and minds is so bloody tough. Many hearts and minds have been conditioned by long exposure to ideas and beliefs that are not beneficial to them, but in the absence of any credible alternative have hardened into certainties, so they cling to those beliefs even in the face of new evidence showing that what they have been told, and everything springing from those tales, are lies.

    Look at how people in decaying US industrial towns, whose main companies have been destroyed by venture capitalism, still cling to Ronald Reagan, the Republican Party and supply side economics, the very creed that destroyed their towns.

    In my own case – I considered myself to be a student of history, having of course grown up in an educational system that taught me nothing of Scottish history but that Mary Queen of Scots was a failed treacherous rival to the sainted Elizabeth, along with two failed rebellions against the Hanoverians in 1715 and 1745. Maybe a quick mention of Scottish armies being defeated by Cromwell. And getting creamed at Flodden, of course. Just a quick reminder that Scotland failed on its own, and that the french were useless allies. Bannockburn got a very quick mention, with the gloss that Edward II was a bit crap and not a good leader like his dad, the Hammer of the Scots. So we got lucky basically. The drip drip drip of history as cringe inducement. Always the Darien Disaster. The rest was English history, and then the history of the British Empire – which showed how greatly Scotland benefitted from the Empire.

    When independence started being seriously considered I had already left Scotland behind. When asked what I thought – I parroted what I had been taught, slowly and subliminally over many years – That Scotland had benefitted greatly from the union, and that I didn’t see why it would do better alone. I also – to my shame – parroted the line of the SNP simply wanting to switch from one tax teat to a larger one – from sucking on the English Tax teat to the Eurpoean one – even down to that imagery. Bitterly amusing to look back that and realise how screwed rUK would be without Scotland’s assets and industry – but I did not know that then. I suggested that the idea of independence in Europe was just the SNP seeking a bigger subsidy supply for Scotland, and by implication itself, and how would that be better than being supported by English Tax receipts? Would we be any more independent? Again, I know better now. My only defence is I didn’t say it with much conviction – but it was all I knew, or had been shown, so I went with it as what I imagined was a considered opinion.

    Where the hell did I get that attitude from? The constant drip drip drip of that propaganda I had been exposed to in Scotland before I left in 2001. I had not researched it, not looked into it in any depth – it was part of the unnoticed wall of whispering noise that is fed to us every day via headline, TV report, and radio discussion. I had heard it so many times, in so many forms, I had internalised it, and believed it.

    How did I change my mind?

    I found a website via an entirely different search, on an utterly different subject. Logic’s Rock. He had an article up about how the promises of the No campaign were just echoes of the promises made in the 79 referendum – which I remembered. And the parallels floored me. All those promises not just broken, but trampled on. The coal mines, car manufacturing, Ravenscraig, etc. etc. all safer if we voted No in 79. Reading that column I could not imagine how anyone who had lived through the lies of 79 would fall for similar lies again in 2014. That many did was bitterly disappointing. But I wanted to learn more.

    I read. I clicked on the links. One was here, to WoS. I learned about democratic deficit, McCrone, about The Barnett formula, and so much more.

    I have continued to read.

    I suspect that the lightbulb moment for your friend might come like mine did, hopefully not by accident but by seeing something so striking, so clear and that speaks to some memory of his that he cannot deny. That is not to say you shouldn’t keep trying – keep trying to direct him to look things up for himself – to find genuine comparisons between Scotrail and Bluebell for example. He might find his assumptions are undone when really made too look at apples to apples comparisons. Use his pedantry against him! He is defending lifelong assumptions, some of which he may not even realise aren’t really his, but just what has been constantly surrounding him in his media environment. My conversion could only happen if the information was out there, and it was. And so much more is there now than there was even in 2014.

    I think clear ideas, clear imagies that contrast with the proven lies and misinformation presnted by the opponents of idependence is a strong way to go. You can’t argue that the promises of 79 were not utterly reneged upon, and you can’t argue that the promises made in 2014 have been kept when pictures and headlines confirm the contrary. Even from the Express. Then let the person intrigued by the contrasts start to look further for themselves, and hopefully be won over.

    My fear is what I have seen over the last few years in duscussion boards, and magnified greatly during and after Brexit and Trump. The internet becoming a cluster of echo chambers. For opponents to be dismissed as crazy, or conspiracy theorists, or as presumed paid shills for whatever ‘opposition’ is deemed useful. In essence the destruction of debate and exchange of information – the balkanisation of the internet.

    Now you can offer well researched information into Scottish Fisheries, Whisky exports, Voting patterns, etc. and if it does not fit into other people’s worldview, or worse, threatens it – the way to discredit any argument you have is to dismiss the source. All sides do it. “Wall St Journal? Right wing big business BS! WoS? The independence looney? Get real! Salon/Breitbart? You expect me to believe anything from there? Have you seen their comments pages?”

    People here give short shrift to The Mail or the Express, and rightly so, but the converse is swathes of people and commentators across the internet who instantly dismiss anything linked to this site. The argument cannot be beaten, so they pretend it does not exist and try to discredit anyone who presents that information as a credulous fool, naive, a dreamer or a useful idiot. These are people who are afraid to look again at their long cherished assumptions about the world and analyse them. Or maybe they are paid shills, or MI6…. see how easy it is?

    But, speaking as one who did have the blinkers on, and for whom simple information helped me take them off, you’ve got to keep trying.

    This site and others can keep tellling the truth and puncture lies. They must continue to exist. Keep sending a clear message, keep chalenging the lies spoken unashamedly by politicians seeking to deceive people with less access to information, as is done brilliantly in the article above. Keep producing striking images that contrast truth and falsehood.

    Sophistry, especially political sophistry is rampant and on the rise. Kellyanne Conway in the US is a remarkable example of a great deal of intelligence given over to defending the ridiculous, in as plausible a manner as possible – but her boss makes that nigh impossible – but she reveals the techniques that have been used for years by more competent politicians and organisations to pull the wool over out collective eyes. Denial, distraction, false equivalence, switching subject or line of enquiry. The only way to defeat Sophistry is to dissect it, and demonstrate its hollow core. Socrates did it – this site does it, the Independence movement, with patience and fortitude in the face of screaming incoherent and logically inconsistent opposition, must continue to do it.

    My tremendously lengthly 2c for today. Apologies – I got carried away.

  272. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 6 February, 2017 at 6:26 pm

    “Well, frankly, no it’s not.”
    Rubbish! You just don’t have a clue what is going on.

    The last thing we need right now is another totally irrelevant diversion.

    You have totally had the whole bloody thing wheech right over your head and have failed to understand the very first thing of what is actually going on – and has gone on since humans came on the scene.

    “Please, stow this stuff. Personal hobbyhorses like this are just not helpful.”
    If you fondly imagine that what I’ve been posting is a personal hobby horse then you can got take a running jump”

    The whole bloody, (and I use that term properly), is that our entire history is what has shaped whatever passes for civilisation today and it is all a progression since the first strong person realised they could gain at the expense of others simple by being bigger, stronger of more clever.

    The Medicine Man of the tribe used other people’s belief in god, whether that god was a graven image, the Sun or an imaginary higher being. They still do.

    Then it was Kings, Emperors, or whatever other name they could dream up, and that includes Popes. All of them claiming to represent God on Earth. They still do.

    To return to the present day and the situation of Scotland in relation to the United Kingdom or the United Kingdom in relation to the EU. Even Donald Trump in relation to the United States of America. The concept on Sovereignty is at the root of the entire power struggle throughout the World.

    It is this nebulous idea that has shaped the laws of every nation under the Sun and it is the laws of these nations that are at the root of every war and execution of innocents since man first walked upright.

    In no way can we avoid facing up to sovereignty in order to prevent power hungry people from grabbing power over others for their own benefit.

    Until now it has always been the strong ones who have held power and only briefly have the people ever held real power over their own destiny. The battle is as old as time itself.

    It is true that we must have civilisation. It is true that me must have society but it has always ended up the same way with those we look to run our society being taken over by power hungry people only really interested in their own gain.

    Communism is a great idea and a great ideal but it has never happened because the power hungry gain power and square one is back.

    Scotland got there in 1320 by making the people legally sovereign and thus, (almost), bringing the Monarchy to heel and, fortunately, that remains the best hope for Scotland’s legally sovereign people to take their destiny back into their own hands.

    The Treaty of Union was nothing more, and nothing less, than the, “Kingdom of England”, to overcome the Kingdom of Scotland and then go on making itself the power in charge, i.e. the self appointed Parliament of England are claiming to have sovereignty over Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland and telling us that, whether we like it or not, we are coming out of the EU.

    So if you imagine I’m pushing a personal hobby horse around then you are a fool. If you fondly believe in Kings and Queens with God Given, Divine Right to Rule you are a fool – and if you haven’t twigged by this time that I do not believe these people have any right, never mind given by god, you are an even bigger fool.

    Religion, royalty, sovereignty sheer bloody personal greed have killed more innocent members of the human race than all disease and every other thing than old age.

    So there is the brutal truth – we have the choice to either legally assert our already existing legal sovereignty as a people or be subjected to the rule of those who would take our legal rights from us by lies, deception and if they deem it necessary, (and think they can get away with it), brutal force.

    And you imagine it is not relevant?

    If we cannot peacefully assert ourselves as the legally sovereign people of Scotland the alternative is subjecting ourselves to the rule of the Westminster Power hungry right wing people who do not give two thoughts to wiping out nations with WMDs, smart bombs and all sorts of military power.

    The choice is yours.

  273. Effijy says:

    Astonished to hear Prof Alyson Pollock on Radio Shortbread
    advise that the Secretary of State for England removed England’s obligation to provide NHS Services.
    It seems that this was done way back in 2012.

    Now operating in England, she now has first hand experience
    of witnessing the step by step privatisation of the NHS in England.

    She warns that as less money is spent on NHS England, the Barnett formula means that there is an automatic cut to Scottish and Welsh Budgets.

    Why isn’t this on our Billboards?

    On that topic, you had a feature where a scammer was able to hire Bus Shelter Billboards for his activities, which were way beyond the “Mis-Reporting Scotland” banners that we were rejected from advertising?

    Any news on the 32 Police Authorities who are pretending to investigate the fraudulent over spending by Tory Party candidates across England???

  274. icyspark says:

    pool9 @ 9.48

    Wow, seriously one of the best comments I’ve ever read.

  275. Stu Mac says:


    He is what is known as an eclectic or eccentric character. Which means he can be quite a good guy on some things and a bit of an @rse in others.

  276. Socrates MacSporran says:

    pool9 @ 9.48pm

    Thanks mate, very good post.

    I will, from now on, refuse to engage with my mate Jimmy when it comes to Independence. He is, as you say, a lost cause.

    I have in the past sent him information gleaned from Wings – he refuses to accept these proven facts, but, continues to spout stuff he read in the Torygraph of Daily Heil, or heard down the golf club.

    Boy is he in for a shock when, post-Independence, he re-locates to Arran to spend his last days back home.

  277. crazycat says:

    @ Effijy

    I believe these were the bus-shelter ad people – they used other sites too.

    They may still exist – Wikipedia refers to them in the present date, last updated 31/12/16:

    My anti-virus doesn’t want me to look at the group’s blog.

  278. crazycat says:

    Present tense, not date (I proof-read it too – saw what I wanted to see).

  279. yesindyref2 says:

    @Socrates / @pool9
    Great posting by pool9, shamed me out of my cynicism.

    Socrates, sometimes these things an be more important to us than we realise, it can get us down that we can’t even convince a close friend – or relative. I’m not like that (proud my daughter made her own mind up and had her reasons for voting NO – no idea what she’ll vote next time if she’s back from Oz adventure).

    Mentioning the Bluebell, he’s either in contempt of it, or loves it to bits. I hope the latter, looked it up and it’s really excellent. 30 steam engines, 11 in operation, 10,500 membership, 800 active unpaid volunteers, not for profit, £4 million turnover, 11 miles of track, 250,00 passengers in 2014. Even long-term plans for more track. Organised to the extent even of having trackside safety ceritificates for people wanting to take photos there, rather than stations etc.

    Maybe get talking about just the Bluebell if he’s a fan – and have some facts about Scotrail to compare (track, units, passengers, turnover) – pointing out of course that Scotrail is commercial, whereas Bluebell thrives because of its volunteers.

  280. mike d says:

    Pool9 .9.48pm. A great post.

  281. Sinky says:

    Notice BBC didn’t mention TV star Dan Snow urging David Beckham’s to come out againgst Scottish self government on promise that it would help him get a knighthood.

    BBC Scotland also failed to put their usual tartan ribbon on the story.

    Becks must be gutted that Andy Murray stuck to his guns asnd got a knighthood.

  282. Lenny Hartley says:

    Socrates MacSporran
    That’s right send your yoon friend doon here !!! Mind you against my expectations Arran voted yes in 2014. Was always a Tory Island until Brian Wilson took the seat from John Corrie if I remember rightly and was Blis until 2015 when the respected Constituancy MP Katie Clark got swallowed up in the SNP Tsunami. Don’t want too many auld buggers retiring doon here, place is full of them already, don’t know who is going to wipe their arses if we have the fool English Brexit and we don’t escape, it won’t be me.,

  283. yesindyref2 says:

    @Scotrates, from Jimmy’s letter: “The Donald will shake things up if he is not impeached or assassinated.”

    He’s not daft – and he’s a realist. “shake things up” he certainly would, not neccessariy in a good way 🙂

  284. mike d says:

    Socrates 7.17pm. Re jimmy from Auchinleck(explains everything).he wants to worry about rising house prices in Brighton.

  285. yesindyref2 says:

    Oops typos

    Anyways, 4am I checked those facebook pages for likes, rechecked at 5pm, 7.30pm and now 10.30pm.

    Germany for Indy: 1801, 1888, 1916, 1941 = +7.8% (high start and in German but so what)
    NL for Indy: 547, 659, 727, 813 = +48.6% (in English)

    I’ll shut up now.

  286. dakk says:

    ‘ had her reasons for voting NO ‘

    If there can ever be any good reason why anyone would vote against their country’s independence then I have never heard it,and I know I never will.

    Unless of course they think Scotland is not their country.

  287. yesindyref2 says:

    Perhaps you’re not listening to what people say, too intent on trying to convert people – which is a good thing.But it also needs those who listen and understand – and pass on the reasons to others (the persuaders / closers). People who can empathise can help to open minds. I often find it easier talking to Unionists than Indy supporters. They find it unusual for an Indy supporter not to go in guns blazing!

  288. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi pool9

    Great post! 10/11. (Nobody’s perfect…)

    More comments, please.


  289. heedtracker says:

    The Guardian view on decent conservatives: we need them
    The Speaker’s assertion of decency is a welcome reminder that customs transmit values in ways that can’t be identified with left or right

    Graun longing for the nice Cons to make a bigger impact. Graun tories leave out which party actually cheered and applauded, while the old guard just sat and watched, through their whole report. If it hadnt been on tv, you’d never have known any SNP was actually there, clapping.

    It is funny though. One tory does not a sleazy, greedy, sneaky creepy, lying, self aggrandising, inexplicably shit tory thing, and its orgasmic.

  290. Meg merrilees says:


    What a brilliant post – thank you for taking the time to put that down for us all to read.
    It’s so encouraging.


    I was speaking to a very close friend who came here from Texas, aged 19 but has lived here for 40 years.

    She had just phoned home and was despondent because they all support Trump; can’t understand why the world seems so against him or why do people object to his travel ban?

    My friend mentioned she had read that more Americans are killed by toddler’s with guns than by any people from the banned countries.

    The reply was that, ‘that statistic, including all school/shopping mall massacres had never happened and were purely propaganda dreamt up by the press to support the anti-gun lobby’!!!
    These people truly believe that to be fact.
    What lies are being told over there and what lies are being spouted in the South of the UK to progress the establishment’s plan?

    Media bias is scary stuff and probably, really, hasn’t even started yet!

    Can you suggest that he logs onto radio Scotland, GMS this morning, 08.40 and listens to Prof Allyson Pollock talk about the SNHS and the creeping privatisation of the NHS England.

  291. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 6 February, 2017 at 7:51 pm:

    Angus Robertson, from Wimbledon, although I probably got that wrong. Fake news.

    No, Heedtracher you got it spot on. Mind you if some on Wings got their way he wouldn’t get a vote in the referendum 2 as he is not a born Scot:-

    Angus Robertson was born in Wimbledon, London, to a Scottish father, Struan, who was an engineer, and a German mother, Anna, who was a nurse. Robertson was brought up in Edinburgh and speaks fluent German.

    He was educated at Broughton High School, Edinburgh and the University of Aberdeen, where he graduated in 1991 with an MA Honours degree in politics and international relations.

    After university he embarked on a journalistic career, and worked as a foreign and diplomatic correspondent in Central Europe for the BBC World Service, and then for the Austrian Broadcasting Corporation ORF.

    So even worse than being born an Englishman he worked for the BBC. It never seems to penetrate some thick heads that the only ones in the whole of Britain that tied nationality to place of birth were the sporting bodies like the football associations.

    Jesus Christ was born in a stable but it didn’t make him a horse.

  292. heedtracker says:

    pool9 says:
    6 February, 2017 at 9:48 pm
    Umm – this became a huge TLDR moment – but I’m buggered if I’m going to delete it. You have been warned.

    That’s a great read! All you can add really is, cheer up why don’t you. Our whole lives, UK politics has been boring as shit, interspersed by awful pointless hot wars. Now, politics is far from boring, so far its life changing. This is the best of times and the blerst of times, in Scottish politics.

    So buck up soldier:D

  293. terry says:

    I gave up on two huge no voters a long time ago. So imagine my astonishment when the other day they mentioned Trump, then Brexit, then the vow! They said they’d vote differently next time. It was the double whammy of Brexit and Trump that has made them see Indy through a different prism.

  294. Valerie says:


    Great post, and hope lurkers or No to Yes will be encouraged to post, we want you! We want to hear your story!

    Tonight in HoC has been shameful, beyond the pale. Everyone on Twitter in a rage. SNP tweeting from the debate on all the clauses they have submitted in the Brexit Bill. Of course every Tory attack dog is there to throw insults at SNP.

    It should be compulsory viewing because we would be independent next week. Only consolation is they are treating the Irish with contempt and the MPs are very angry about Good Friday Agreement now under threat.

    Tories have declared NO amendments should go through as it makes things too uncertain. They have already refused the Labour amendment to require 2 monthly updates on Brexit to HoC.

    Labour are finished now. They are trying to close the stable door, after holding it open last week and voting to trigger.

    No wonder Diane Abbot was posted as missing for the vote, with an alleged migraine.

    On the plus side Tasmina was kicking Tory ass.

  295. Still Positive says:

    Just read the thread ‘Sovereignty for Dummies’ from Aug 2012 (type title in search box top right). A short and easy read.

    However, it opens a can of worms. As the people of Scotland are sovereign and the UK Parliament has just passed an Act to take all of the UK out of the EU.

    Can the Queen really sign it as the sovereign Scots voted 62% to remain and all but 1 of our MPs voted against it?

    I know Alex, Nicola and Angus are members of the Privy Council and, apart from Truthless, and possibly the Lords Forsyth and Lang, how will that decision be made?

    If you were being impartial then your wish to remain would be paramount. Think Forsyth came out as ‘Leave’, no idea about Lang – but they are all Tories – never trust a Tory.

    Interested in your thoughts on this.

  296. heedtracker says:

    Has Truth Davidson said anything about that orange clown in Washington yet? Maybe shooting her Remain mouth off across the UK, has had an effect on her shooting her mouth off urges.

  297. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 21:51:

    …you have totally had the whole bloody thing wheech right over your head and have failed to understand the very first thing of what is actually going on

    That’s right, start with a sneery ad hominem attack or two then follow up with screeds of waffle – that will really convince people.

    I’m beginning to understand where Lochside and others are coming from.

    It’s you who seems to be missing the vital point, but let me keep it short and sweet. Do you seriously think that getting everybody arguing on a whim about whether we should have a monarchy or not right now is a sensible thing to do?

    Diversion tactics? Divide-and-rule?

    We’re on the cusp of finally winning this thing and you want to introduce some pointless historical tangent of your own devising? Seriously?

    I don’t give a monkey’s toss about the monarchy one way or another. What I care about is getting an indyref2 as soon as practicable with as many people onside as possible so that we win the damn thing. Nothing else matters.

    I want to make history, not argue about it.

  298. Bob MACK says:


    Stunning——-and very accurate.

  299. Tam Jardine says:


    Great post. You mentioned the teaching of our history and that is interesting me at the moment.

    I’ve started looking into our history and I’ve been banging on about the crusade that was absurdly termed the ‘rough wooing’. It is a long time ago but for Edinburgh, Leith, the Borders, Dumfries and Galloway and beyond it amazes me how little is known.

    Am trying to get my head around what happened. The first major wave involved a naval landing at Granton, the burning of Leith and then Edinburgh. The provost of Edinburgh offered the keys to the city if they would spare it. Hertford was ordered not to negotiate.
    Imagine the town as it was- it had built a wall over decades to fortify the city after Flodden. They were terrified- and 30 years later the English army arrived.

    Having sacked Leith, the population were under no illusion as to what was about to happen next. And the walls they had spent years building were breached at the Netherbow port on the Royal Mile using artillery. Hundreds were killed in the process. They couldn’t take the castle so they contented themselves burning everything for miles around.

    I said crusade- I can’t think of any other word more fitting. Complete with religious zeal and mass knightings of adherents.

    This all happened 470 years ago so may be irrelevant but the wilful ignoring and sanitising of our history is relevant.

  300. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    pool9 @ 21:48,

    I would just like to add my appreciation to that of others for your exceptional contribution. Your posting was exactly the kind of thing I was calling for a thread or two back.

    The witness of converts like you may be particularly influential in overcoming the misunderstandings of the kind of people we still need to convert.

    Please, if anyone else can offer similar insights, put them out here. You may not yet realise it, but you can do a power of good. The truth really can set people free.

  301. Hamish100 says:

    After the clapping in the House of Commons today I fully expect Bercow to chastise the SNP for clapping him or alternatively soak up the praise.

  302. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 6 February, 2017 at 8:13 pm:

    ” … So you are admitting that Scotland is NOT “sovereign”

    Are you really as thick as your posts on Wings make you seem?

    Either you don’t you know the difference between actually being legally sovereign according to the law of your own country or you believe that another country is right to claim you are not sovereign according to the law of their country.

    What you are being told is 100% correct and as neither Scotland nor England have a legally written constitution and as there isn’t any Act of Parliament that says otherwise the next best written evidence there is of the actual status on sovereignty is what is stated in the documents, (Treaty and two individual Acts of Two Parliaments). No one but you has admitted any such thing.

    Article of union XIX, (No.19), that is repeated almost word for word in the two Acts of the two independent parliaments states this :-

    “Article 19 of the Treaty of Union.THAT the Court of Session, or Colledge of Justice, do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that hereafter none shall be named by Her Majesty, or her royal Successors, to be ordinary Lords of Session but such who have served in the Colledge of Justice as Advocates, or principal Clerks of Session for the Space of five Years; or as Writers to the Signet for the Space of ten Years, with this Provision, That no Writer to the Signet be capable to be admitted a Lord of the Session, unless he undergo a private and publick Tryal on the Civil Law, before the Faculty of Advocates and be found by them qualified for the said Office, two Years before he be named to be a Lord of the Session; yet to as the Qualifications made, or to be made, for capacitating Persons to be named ordinary Lords of Session, may be altered by the Parliament of Great Britain. And that the Court of Justiciary do also after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain, and without Prejudice of other Rights of Justiciary; and that all Admiralty Jurisdictions be under the Lord High Admirall or Commissioners for the Admiralty of Great Britain for the time being, and that the Court of Admiralty now established in Scotland be continued, and that all Reviews, Reductions, or Suspensions of the Sentences in Maritime Cases, competent to the Jurisdiction of that Court, remain in the same Manner after the Union, as now in Scotland, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall make such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be judged expedient for the whole United Kingdom, so as there be always continued in Scotland a Court of Admiralty, such as in England, for Determination of all Maritime Cases relating to private Rights in Scotland competent to the Jurisdiction of the Admiralty Court, subject nevertheless to such Regulations and Alterations as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that the Heritable Rights of Admiralty and Vice-Admiralties in Scotland be reserved to the respective Proprietors as Rights of Property, subject nevertheless, as to the Manner of exercising such heritable Rights, to such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all other Courts now in being within the Kingdom of Scotland do remain, but subject to Alterations by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all inferior Courts within the said Limits do remain subordinate, as they are now, to the supreme Courts of Justice within the same, in all time coming; and that no Causes in Scotland be cognoscible by the Courts of Chancery, Queens-Bench, Common-Pleas, or any other Court in Westminster-hall; and that the said Courts, or any other of the like Nature, after the Union, shall have no Power to cognosce, review, or alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland, or stop the Execution of the same; and that there be a Court of Exchequer in Scotland after the Union, for deciding Questions concerning the Revenues of Customs and Excises there, having the same Power and Authority in such Cases, as the Court of Exchequer has in England; and that the said Court of Exchequer in Scotland have Power of passing Signatures, Gifts, Tutories, and in other Things, as the Court of Exchequer at present in Scotland hath; and that the Court of Exchequer that now is in Scotland do remain, until a new Court of Exchequer be settled by the Parliament of Great Britain in Scotland after the Union; and that after the Union, the Queen’s Majesty, and her royal Successors, may continue a Privy Council in Scotland, for preserving of publick Peace and Order, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit to alter it, or establish any other effectual method for that end.”

    What part of that highlighted in bold bit do you not understand?

  303. pool9 says:

    Socrates – I wouldn’t refuse to engage your mate on politics if he wants to go there, but just keep your message simple, and true. Keep at that, and one day, one thing might stick, because the truth can be ignored, but it cannot be disproved, and if it nags at him enough that he tries to disprove something you share with him, and he can’t, then maybe he’ll find his way to looking at things differently.

    yesindyref2 made a great point about the Scotrail vs Bluebell comparison – has he really looked at that or is he repeating something he heard on the radio? Apples to Apples they are not – if he looked closer maybe he’d realise that, and question why he ever used that as an argument. Or not. but you can only hope, and keep providing snippets of truth. Thanks yesindyref2 for finding those links and info!

    And if you have one of those pics worth a thousand words – use it. I like the two express (I think – or was it the Mail?) headlines that appeared on this site. The one claiming pensions at risk before the referendum (if we voted Yes), and the one after the referendum saying pensions would be cut. So much for that! A No Vote didn’t protect pensions either! Might be of interest to him, given his retirement plans. They threatened indy would cause hardship, then the union caused that very same hardship.

    TBH – I might prefer the civil service jobs safe with No – civil service jobs axed after No comparison as there was a definitive example of one thing promised, then the opposite delivered. That is the collieries and Ravenscraig all over again, promise one thing, do another, jobs lost and livelihoods threatened.

    Keep chipping away at people by revealing the failures of the No side. The promises broken. The 24, no 13, no 8, no let’s not talk about that number of frigates to be built on the Clyde. The renewable energy industry will be under threat with a Yes vote, then the Govt axes wind and renewable subsidies after the No vote. A deliberate act. The union failing to protect industries it said would be threatened by independence. If it can be done using headlines or articles from the BBC, or newspapers that opposed independence – sources most unionists instinctively trust, all the better as that way they cannot dismiss the source! Using their media against them is key, I think.

    Each day the ‘facts’ presented via these news organs appear convincing enough – but show someone how they contradict themselves over time, and you might wrinkle a brow or two, and get someone thinking.

    Liars must have great memories. Newpaper histories, archived TV shows and internet pages demonstrate that the people independence supporters must overcome do not have very good recall. Use that against them. A liar caught in a lie will often instinctively lie again to try to cover it up. This is when people who used to believe them finally have the penny drop.

    In life folk react poorly to liars. Would not trust a coworker with a rep for lying, would feel ashamed at a relative caught time and again in lies.

    If some wavering No’s are shown, clearly, that voices and opinion makers they trust, have frequently changed their tune, or outright lied in the past, if one lie can be incontrovertibly demonstrated, then it can start that wavering No voter to questioning everything else, and questioning why those lies were uttered, and who benefited from those lies being spread.

    Then offer them all the information they never knew existed, and see what happens. Yes in a landslide.

  304. pool9 says:

    Oh, and thanks to everyone for the compliments on my earlier post – riddled with typos as it was! My respect and thanks to all of those here and elsewhere who have worked so hard to advance the cause of independence.

  305. jockmcx says:

    fireworks in the chamber

  306. jockmcx says:

    snp raging

  307. Flower of Scotland says:

    I’m incensed at the way the devolved countries in the EU debate have been treated by the Tory MPs at Westminster. However I am extremely proud that our SNP MPs spoke on behalf of Scotland in an honest way and waited until very late in the day to be able to speak.

    Joanna Cherry at this late hour being told by the speaker to hurry up. Oh my God! Alex Salmond more or less told to shut up!
    The chair now turns to the Minister for Exiting the EU.

    Scotland told to hurry up and shut up!

  308. Tam the Bam. says:

    Eck blowing his top @ Westminster…good on him!…Give em hell Alex!

  309. jockmcx says:

    snp shafted by speaker

  310. Liz Rannoch says:

    Fisticuffs anybody?

  311. sassenach says:

    Good on Eck, get us out of this rancid HoC as soon as possible.

  312. Bob MACK says:

    @Tam Jardine,

    The rough wooing is extremely relevant. It was another English attempt to control Scotland by forcing a marriage of the future Scottish queen to Henry 8 son.

    The reason he only sacked Edinburgh was because he was afraid France would attack and sent limited forces north.

    They have been trying to obliterate us for centuries, but still somehow we resist.

  313. Valerie says:

    Yes, Alex was raging, not seen that for a while. I miss him! Lindsay Hoyle had to be told that 2 SNP had a chance to speak, and they had sat there for hours.

    As I said, it was orchestrated, because they had the Tories that hate us the most in to filibuster and waste time.

    House pretty full now. Vote in progress whether to put Joint Ministerial Council on stat footing. It will fall of course.

    If we don’t get out, our Parliament will be wiped out in the Great Repeal Bill. They are on a roll.?

  314. sounds like it`s `kicking off` in the commons,

    SNP members being sidelined and verbally abused.

  315. Still Positive says:

    Didn’t realise Parliament was still sitting otherwise would have watched it – annoyed.

    Poo/9 Well done. Respect.

    Would like comments re my comment at 11.25.

  316. Tam Jardine says:

    Bob Mack

    Henry VIII didn’t hold back if that is your point. There were limits to what he could do but he didn’t hold back. I’m looking at the scale of the assault before 1544 and for the duration of the campaign and by god he did not hold back.

    And it started as an attempt to force marriage but that didn’t pan out early bells. It was a war of punishment. Crusade is the only word for it.

  317. sassenach says:


    Yes we must get out well before the Great Repulsive Bill, after that I believe that Holyrood will be disbanded (or whatever word they may use) – this is definitely becoming our Last Chance Saloon.

  318. Still Positive says:

    Now got Parliament TV on – not going to bed until it ends.

    This vote is about the Welsh finances after Brexit since they were promised no funding would be lost after Brexit. Pretty sure it will fail as all the other reasonable ones have.

    Time for a coffee to keep me awake.

  319. Thepnr says:

    For those looking for more more “fighting spirit” from the SNP, well they got it tonight from Joanna Cherry and Alex Salmond definitely got the gloves OFF.

    I thought he was going to get flung out again LOL. Good on him, this Brexit crap will open a few eyes at least. It’s a disgrace when a single Tory is allowed to speak in a parliamentary debate for longer than ALL the MP’s from the three devolved countries. Democracy my arse.

  320. Smallaxe says:


    Each one, Teaches one. Respect!

    Peace Always

  321. @till Positive

    you can re-watch the days proceedings with `parliament tv`

    slider at bottom of screen or list of speakers on right hand side,

    Alex Salmond and speaker Hoyle nearly having a `square go`after Hoyle forced Joanna Cherry to sit down and shut up.

  322. Capella says:

    Just finished watching that complete charade which is the House of Commons “debate”. The Deputy Speaker spectacularly rude to Joanna Cherry. Cut her off after 2 minutes though everyone else was allowed to drone on endlessly. Alex Salmond, of course, protested.

    Why the SNP don’t get up and walk out is a mystery. Listened to a succession of supercilious public school boys sneering at the SNP, calling them “Nationalist” even though they knew this is not the party name, one even suggested they shouldn’t be there! Well that is true enough!

    Time to dump that antiquated apology for a “democratic” assembly.

  323. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m tending to leave Labour alone these days, but for their spring conference: “The party said its conference slogan would be “Together We’re Stronger”, an echo of the Better Together campaign in the 2014 independence referendum.

    Their groundhog day started with 24 hours, is down to 12 hours, what next? Groundhog half-hour? Just a minute?

  324. crazycat says:

    @ yesindyref2

    They’re almost becoming a self-parody these days.

    There’s something gruesomely fascinating about it – wondering what on earth they’ll come up with next, and then despairing when it’s even worse than expected!

  325. yesindyref2 says:

    They went down from 40 MPs to 1, then did the same thing, went down from 37 MSPs to 24 – and they’re doing not just the same thing, but even more “Together”.

    I don’t believe it, I just don’t believe it.

    Will they invite Ruth Harrison to speak at their conference, to tumultuous applause? She can do a dance with Corbyn, Dugdale can do a jig with Murdo Fraser. Jackie Baillie sing a duet with Adam Tomkins “Rule Britannia”. Oh what fun we all had!

  326. Meg merrilees says:

    So Mark Harper MP gets to speak twice tonight for 28 minutes both times.
    Joanna Cherry gets 4 minutes and is forced to sit down by shenanigans from the Speaker. When Alex Salmond complained we were told that we should consider ourselves lucky that we were allowed to have two people speak in the debate because, actually there should only have been one SNP member allowed to speak.

    Also, members opposite referred to us as the Scottish Nationalist Party… WRONG!!!

    This is the Mother of all Parliaments in action – is this democracy. Not sure if it is an aristocracy or an oligarchy we are witnessing, but it’s not democracy unless you believe the definition to be “rule by the majority”.
    Shocking display of arrogant Tory sneering at Scotland.

    As Joanna said, they have enhanced the cause of an indy Scotland hugely tonight and more importantly may have enhanced the likelihood of a re-united Ireland too. FOOLS!

    Michael Gove is a cringing ("Tractor" - Ed).

  327. @pool9

    what you are describing with a large number of unionists, even the supposed intelligent ones, is `cognitive dissonance`

    people do not like to have their long held beliefs proved false,in some it can cause serious mental stress,(dissonance)

    to protect the ego the super ego will block out or just plainly ignore the facts that are causing the stress,

    most religions/cults/political parties rely on cognitive dissonance to fool their followers,

    we need to target the 6% we need to win Indy2

    not waste our time with those that mentally can never admit that Scotland can look after herself.

  328. crazycat says:

    @ Meg merrilees

    Ian Murray – Ian Murray! – had the cheek to complain about this (retweeted by someone, I can’t remember who), but still thinks that together we’re stronger, as pointed out by yesindyref2 above.

    A third consequence of all this may be the demise of the Labour Party, which will be entirely their own fault.

  329. Valerie says:

    As expected all the amendments were defeated.

    This was the monumental stupidity of Labour voting to trigger. They might have still lost the vote, but now they voted to trigger, and the amendments to try and claw back some type of input are defeated.

    This govt are determined it will be all their way and we have to lump the hard and dirty Brexit. There is no pretence to consult.

    Mark Durkan of SDLP gave a very passionate speech, he looked exhausted and close to tears. He really fears for the peace holding in NI.

    correct. If we aren’t out of the UK before the Great Repeal, we are at the mercy of the Tories over the existence of Holyrood. There has already been talk of a new Act of Union, they are desperate to bury us.

    I shudder to think where we would be if Labour were in charge here.

  330. ScottishPsyche says:

    The SNP should not play the game that is Westminster politics because the Labour and the Tories are playing fast and loose with the rules. Lyndsay Hoyle was a stuttering incoherent mess when Alex Salmond had the audacity to challenge him. How dare the SNP not be grateful for the crumbs dished out.

    Every SNP question is answered with ‘You lost’. Every opportunity is taken to denigrate the SNP and record lies in Hansard. Nicola Sturgeon was insulted and accused of lying without any right of reply. The new tack is to say because of the stated aim of the SNP is for independence then they cannot participate in any Brexit negotiations.

    How is this democracy? How can this be legitimate?

    Parliament TV is such an eye opener. If I had ever thought I would be watching debates in Parliament on a school night and be so furious I could hardly think straight, I would never have believed it. Thank God for this site to be able to vent.

  331. Meg merrilees says:

    (t)Ruthless has argued that there should not be a separate Scottish system for agriculture after Brexit saying:

    “It would be foolhardy to devolve all EU agricultural powers to Scotland after Brexit” ( not archived)

    What planet is she on?

    Surely the NFU and members won’t fall for that?

  332. Tam the Bam says:

    @Scottish Psyche…2.00am.

    I know..nearly threw the slipper at the telly!

  333. Macart says:

    @ pool9 9.48pm

    Been said plenty already, but read that post everyone.

    Bunnet doffed.

    Kudos. 🙂

  334. Meg merrilees says:

    The US would go not any war with China with ‘unparalleled violence’ warn experts.

    and our PM goes to visit to talk trade?

  335. Meg merrilees says:

    Sorry, should read…US would go into any war with China etc.. sorry – late – bed.

  336. Hermodr says:

    It’s genuinely as if they are trying to make Scotland and NI more unhappy. How bloody difficult would it have been to go for ‘soft Brexit’ and present it to the UKIP nutters as a victory? Is this design or incompetence?

  337. Meg merrilees says:


    or is it an attempt to incite violence and justify the end of Devolution or possibly even bringing in the troops?

    The establishment is getting desperate.
    I’ve never seen contempt the like of tonight in Parliament and not just to Scotland, there was open disrespect to Wales, N.Ireland and Scotland.

    O/T I read tonight that Assad has seemingly hanged 13,000 people after only minutes of a trial.

    I think perhaps ‘man’s inhumanity to man’ is a fitting description of these times!

  338. Still Positive says:

    meg merrilees @ 1.34

    Mark Harper droned on between 5pm and 7.30pm when I was watching – clear from the outset he was determined to defeat the amendments. Let’s see what happens tomorrow.

    Bast***s the lot of them.

  339. Thepnr says:

    We’re still trying to convert No’s to Yes. We mainly see that as supporters of parties other than the SNP and in particular Labour supporters.

    So why I’m asking is that in this Panelbase poll the results of the Independence question among those most likely to vote throw up this result?

    If the referendum was held again tomorrow, how would you vote in response to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country? (Likely voters)

    Tory: Yes 16% No 81% Undecided 3%
    Lab: Yes 25% No 66% Undecided 9%
    SNP: Yes 74% No 22% Undecided 5%

    What is it with 22% of SNP supporters who in no way want Independence? That’s a lot of votes and on it’s own just about enough to get support for Independence from 45% to 50%.

    It seems that no matter how people vote they can still be convinced of supporting Independence, we shouldn’t give up on anyone but I think the SNP has to make a bit more effort in convincing those 22% who don’t agree.

    Best start closer to home before venturing further afield.

  340. Hermodr says:

    Those numbers are baffling, like. 74% SNP? 16% tory? How can that be anywhere close to the truth?

  341. Thepnr says:


    Yes, I totally agree they are baffling though I think immediately after the Indy Referendum it was something like 13% of SNP voters who voted No. That is more believable but still high.

    Brexit effect? I’ve no idea. Lying poll? No idea, I’m just quoting the numbers as reported by Panelbase.

  342. Sandy says:

    I, too, watched that shambles tonight. What a hill market. Substitute dictatorship for democracy. Scotland’s representatives are peeing against the wind in that broken-down building. Hate to think what it will be like when we have a clear vote for independence.
    Scotland has few enemies in the world (English aristocracy excepted) so now is the time to further enhance that image. Imagine where that would leave that dictatorship. England twinned with North Korea. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, even USA perhaps, would proffer the one or two fingered salute.
    UDI is on the cards. With the support of our many friends around the world, I don’t foresee any great problem. England connot afford to have sanctions imposed on it. It’s up the proverbial creek already, unable to feed itself, limited natural resources, etc. A complete nation of foodbanks & charity shops. Starving, then what, civil war. Maybe nature might help, global warming. Flood most of the place but for the few left, more fishing areas.
    Hey, would make a great film. Show the population what to expect.

  343. pool9 says:

    @Scott Finlayson

    Indeed it is cognitive dissonance. And often the only way you can help to change people’s minds is by fostering cognitive dissonance – in this case presenting uncomfortable truths. It is a way of persuading the apparently unpersuadable – because they make the change themselves.

    Presenting unwanted truths about indy can force people to confront the source of their discomfort – the dissonance – by reconciling what they know to be true versus what they have believed up until that point.

    Some will retreat into their flawed belief system and deny what they have been told. Others will not, and will cast aside what they believed before. This is progress, and in this case, this could be changing hard No’s to Yeses. Look up at terry at 11.20pm. The people who switched from hard No to Yes. Events had caused them to rethink their positions – Brexit and Trump, the aftermath of the Vow, and its broken promises. Not everyone needs a big event to change their minds, just enough things to trouble their previously comfortable worldview, and cause them to try to reconcile new evidence with old attitudes. Sometimes it is not the old attitudes that prevail. This is why continuing to press a simple truthful message, with documented back up on tap when needed, is so important.

    Our opposition wants to lose us in the weeds of obscure policy debates and ‘what if’ scenarios. We can debate them, with determination and clear positions, but never lose sight of the core truth of Scotland’s democratic deficit, and the effects that being unable to make our own decisions has had upon the country.

    Yes only 6% is needed, but the future will be much more settled if Independence gains far more than that. Though I’ll take 6%, I’d prefer it if Independence won a resounding majority in the coming referendum. I assume there will be one, despite the depressing shenanigans in Westminster tonight and the apparent willingness of Parliament to ignore or ridicule elected representatives in the chamber.

    Side Note: I recognise that the Wee Black Book is a great resource for what I have been talking about in this post and two above above in terms of presenting contradictions from the MSM to the believers in the MSM in order to foster dissonance, but I remain aware that for some people all they need to see is that the information is being presented by this ‘poisoned’ source and they will discount everything in the WBB simply because of where it came from.

    This is why I think it would be good to simply have access to the original links, to put them side by side and let them speak for themselves. To have an archive of clear, punchy images with simple text to ram the contradictions home. Make the other guy do the mental work of explaining why the unionist team have moved the goalposts over time. I believe that some viewers/readers will have the same epiphany I did, and then share that with others.

  344. Meg merrilees says:

    Does it help to think of them in real numbers of people? There were 783 people as the base for this question + 151 who are described as did not vote.

    364/783 were SNP voters. 74%
    268 yes = 74% ; 80 no = 22% ; 17 dk = 4%

    177/783 were Tory
    28 yes = 16% ; 143 no = 81% ; 6 dk = 3%

    171/783 were Labour
    42yes = 25% ; 113 no = 66% ; 16 dk = 9%

    63/783 were Lib/Dem
    8 yes = 12% ; 46 no = 73% ; 9 dk = 14%

    8/783 were others
    2 yes = 25% ; 3 no = 38% ; 2 dk =25%

    (151 did not vote)
    (49 yes =32% , 88 no =58% ; 14 dk = 9%)

    When you tally all the votes cast it shows that:
    YES vote is on 44%,
    No vote has dropped to 49%
    Don’t know’s are 6%

    There’s an interesting statistic. Wonder what (t)Ruthless would make of that extrapolation!
    Don’t suppose she’ll put that on her Twitter feed.

    (Overall percentage of votes registered – 348 yes = 44% ; 385 no = 49% ; 50 dk = 6%)

    I must go to bed!

  345. Meg merriless says:

    Just read Anne Mc Laughlin’s post on her website.

    Apparently, tonight, After Joanna was silenced and Alex had remonstrated with the Speaker, about a dozen of our MP’s walked out as a protest.

    (They didn’t show us that, because the Minister was speaking!)

  346. Vambomarbeleye says:

    It’s truth Jim, but not as we know it.

  347. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Just to add appreciation of pool9’s comments. A real tonic, and came at a good time.

    Sounds like the HoC was a bit mental last night, eh? Michty! However will GMS deal with all that? We’ll soon find out…

  348. Macart says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Well, Mr Bercow’s banning of Trump from speaking to the houses has made the press, but the appalling treatment and time allotment of the Scottish benches during the debate has not, near as I can see.

    Third party of UK politics…

    Still, better together eh? That’s yer UK politics and ‘democracy’ in action. Any number of tories can drone on till their voice cracks and the Scottish benches in our partnership of equals get what? Three speakers in 7 or 8 hours at approx a few minutes a piece.


  349. Giving Goose says:

    Regarding the behaviour of non Scots MPs in Westminster, it needs to be understood in light of recent events.

    What we are witnessing is English nationalism (or British nationalism).

    It’s the history of the British Empire played out on a very small scale.

    There are no victories on the North West Frontier or against the Fuzzy Wuzzys anymore.

    So this void needs to be filled.

    The Foreign Johnny savages are now the Scots.

    The Great Game in Central Asia against the Russians has been replaced by the struggle against the tyranny of the EU.

    The economic opportunities that gave young men adventures in the once-empire has been replaced by jobs in London.

    So the once-imperialists have two victories of sort;

    The wicked Scots have been put to the sword and bayonet, while the Brexit vote is seen as a victory against the EU.

    So English nationalist MPs are on a roll.

    Once you get your head round that it’s easy to view the whole charade as just a lot of hot air.

    We should be patient and let Brexit unravel the English nationalist delusions.

    Take it easy and watch.

  350. Nana says:

    Councillor ‘claimed £45,000 in benefits as a single man while living with wife’

    Time to make public corruption findings

    Two thirds of British people think selling arms to Saudi Arabia is unacceptable

    News Corp ‘enjoys astounding access’ to government, research shows

  351. Breeks says:

    HoC last night is bizarre.

    Not withstanding the obvious gagging of Joanna Cherry, what on earth was Hoyle referring to about some agreement to limit the opportunities for the SNP to speak?

    “In fairness, I think you’ve done better than was going to happen”.

    It is very hard to interpret that any other way than some preamble to the debate that the SNP should not be allowed opportunities to speak.

    Follow Nanas link below. It’s a very important slip of the tongue which is dropping off the other clips beginning to circulate. It’s at 4min point in the video.

  352. Sinky says:

    Following Jill Stephenson, the Hootsman has given daily letter writer Keith Howell a column in which he condemns the SNP politicisation of the civil service during the Referendum campaign.

    Has he not read about the UK civil servant who was honoured for his work in keeping the Union not to mention the politicisation of Bank of England chief Mark Carney.

  353. Macart says:

    Update on our partnership.

    Last night’s debate –

    2 Scottish, 1 Welsh and 1 NI MP given leave to speak apparently.

    Labour MPs cheered when the deputy speaker stated he’d ‘been kind’ allowing SNP MPs three minutes to speak.

    Dear God, that’s appalling. Is this it? This is better together in the UK?

    When do partners beg for scraps from a master’s table? When do partners ask for permission to speak to each other? Brexit isn’t a vote on regional boundary change. Its not fox hunting, or water rates, or planning permission.

    Brexit is a fundamental constitutional change which will affect the civil and basic human rights and lives of tens of millions of human beings.

    Brexit will affect the economies of nations and the economic life chances of each individual within those nations. Did anyone note that this would affect NATIONS – plural.

    Yet it seems our ‘partner’ is STILL only interested in the voice from one side of a chamber, one partner and their own political self interest.

    Y’know, it’s no secret I’m no fan of Westminster politics, or how it is practised. It’s no secret that I am fully biased toward Scots re-assuming their place in the world as a self governing nation state. How and ever, even in my imagination, I did not dream that in their petulant, self serving arrogance, the members of that chamber would be so overt and open of their contempt for Scotland or its representation.

    I wish I could make it compulsory for every voting human being in Scotland to view Parliament TV. Between the Scotland Bill debates and the Brexit debates not a one, not a single soul would be left in any doubt. The members of that chamber don’t give a shit for or about the ‘UK’. They certainly don’t care for the inhabitants of its northern partner. No, they care about tax take, land mass, resources, geo political perception and self. Not necessarily in that order. Human inhabitants, populations and duty of care or responsibility… not so much.

    The only time human beings matter to these little creatures is pretty much when votes are required and mainly round about where they live.

    So, are we done with this sorry bullshit yet? Or would you rather continue being degraded before the world? Made a chump of, abused, stolen from and patronised?

    You can choose a better way. All of you readers can choose a better way than this. You’re not worthless. You’re not possessions. You’re human beings and none of you, YES and NO voter alike deserve to be treated like this.

  354. Snode1965 says:

    Well said Pool9.
    As someone who wasn’t a member of the original 30% independence block, I totally agree with your sentiments.
    It was only when I began looking out with the msm for information on independence that the veil was lifted from my eyes. Would you believe it was an article in the paper disparaging WOS, who I had never heard of, that lead me here. From wings to Newsnet, Bella etc, it was a personal enlightenment.
    So yes, people can be persuaded and we must be ready to help others reach their own light bulb moment.

  355. Ken500 says:

    With the internet it is easy to convince folk to Indepenence with the relevant information. Hundreds can be informed of the advantages. Many more can be convinced. Even auld wifies. On the wifi. It can be done. .

    The carrying on by the crooks at Westminster will only ensure it happens sooner rather than later. The next time it will be successful. Two years is not long to wait. Just wait until Article 50 is triggered. The chaos that follows will ensure Scotland is out of the corrupt mess. Until then the SNP are holding the criminals to account.

    The squander of public money by councils not doing their statuary duty. SNP will gain more seats May 2017. ACC has squandered and wasted £340Million alone. The grotesque carbuncle of total folly ruining the City Centre is plain to see. A collosal waste of over £100Milliins of public money. A complete and utter disgrace. The most improvement would be to take it down. Along with the rotten to the core unionist council.

    A few years till Independence is not much to tolerate. Just as long as folk who have campaigned, do not have to to wait too long. The Tory/Unionists disrespect will fuel the success of the Independence movement. No matter what the crooked unionists and con are doing at Westminster. It just convinces more voters Independence is the way to go. The Westminster hypocrites and their sycophants are a absolute disgrace.

    Imagine the Tories were being bussed from a Black and White Ball to ruin the world economy. There are so out of touch with reality. Labour/LibDems/Greens are a total waste of time. No opposition except the SNP. The majority of people in the UK want to stay in the EU.

    UKIP is self destructing. Farague the crook might be finally getting found out? For embezzlement if £Billions of public funds to fund a political Party. Against the Law. Should end up in jail. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies. What is being done about it. They will lose the next election. 2020. What a mess will be left as usual. There is no unionists competent in Westminster to sort it out. Just incompetent ignoramouses lining their own pockets on other people’s misery. Disgusting fraudsters and crooks. Ilegally wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.

    People’s imaginary ‘friends’ from England do not have a vote. Most of the people from eleswhere do not care but Scotland has friends in Europe and around the world. Up for the stand against Tory/Unionist intransigence.

  356. Hamish100 says:

    Evil in action.
    English rules for all other nations.
    England rules.
    Got it?
    Shut up!

    Cheers from the Tories and brexit labour

  357. galamcennalath says:

    I notice on the Rev’s twitter a report that Unionists would like IndyRef2 to have a different question and answers Leave Remain. Presumably because there are now big negative connotations in Scotland with the word Leave.

    I have always thought it should have been, should be, an honest and accurate ….

    Who should govern Scotland? Choice Scotland or England.

  358. Dorothy Devine says:

    About the suggestion of the SNP MP’s walking out , my heart says YES but my head says NO.

    Were they to walk out I can imagine the field day our media would have about them ‘ not doing the job for which they were elected’ not to mention the Lib/Lab/Con parties. And of course the Ruth ( we are not Tories ,honest!) Davidson party would be fulminating all over the BBBC.

  359. Breeks says:

    OT with other things happening, but wow. This looks great… or spooky. Can’t quite decide. It’s a bit I Robot…

  360. sensibledave says:

    Sandy 3.02

    You wrote “UDI is on the cards. With the support of our many friends around the world, I don’t foresee any great problem.”

    OMG, to paraphrase the above: democracy sucks, lets have a civil war.

    Good stuff Sandy. A well thought out, intelligent and humanitarian solution to achieving your political aims…. Oppress the majority.

  361. Ken500 says:

    Still many that wish Andy Murray did not take a knighthood, from the sycophant Tory Royals who cause mental health problems, It has been downwards ever since. Along with the beating drums exhibitionist, fanatics spoiling the game for the majority. Watching with the sound down, who will not now venture to the stadium. Or hand over their hard gotten cash. A sporting spectacular crash.

  362. Still Positive says:

    Dorothy Devine @ 9.12

    Totally agree and for the same reason.

    Although Anne McLaughlin, MP posted on her FB page that about 12 of them did walk out.

    They must have the patience of saints.

    Definitely an English Brexit – they’re calling all the shots, as usual.

  363. wull2 says:

    After A50 is triggered, Scotland’s MPs should walk out of UK Parliament on certain days to make a point, it will be covered by the media even if it is not the UK media.
    In a divorce you don’t say one party is heaver so that side should get more. We should ask for 50% of everything.

  364. DerekM says:

    I wonder how all those English people who thought they had a grassroots social movement going inside the Labour party are feeling today.

    Have they figured out yet that the Labour party are not interested in what they have to say and only used them to put in place a weak pretend lefty Labour leader that would give the tories free reign for the next 20 years.

    I do not know why people are shocked about what happened last night i am elated.

    It was a total farce anyway a piece of irrelevant legislation which job was to pass the brexit buck so the tories did not get left holding the shitty end of the stick alone.

    And Labour obliged like prize chumps or little tory helpers you can decide which.

  365. Ken500 says:

    That’s the whole point. Logistically SNP MP’s should have been allowed to speak for 35+ mins (three Unionists) .Not that it would have made any difference. Outvoted 10 to 1. Depending on proportion of the electorate pro rata.

    Pop 1/12 7hour debate. 60 divided by 12 = 5mins 5 x 7 hour = 42mins. Should have been the Scottish allocated time. (3 unionist liars)

    The Tory/unionists politicans have made their bed. They can lie upon it. They will reap what they sow. Labour are a joke. An embarrassing laughing stock. They reaped what they sowed. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.

  366. Pete says:

    The pnr 249am
    To answer your question, I have many friends who vote SNP who would NEVER vote YES.
    The reason is that they deem them to be more competent than Labour in local government and are not yet minded to vote Conservative in Scottish or U.K. Elections.
    Very unscientific but that’s my personal experience.

  367. woosie says:

    Ref SNP MPs walking out;

    My heart says yes, but my head says…..yes!

    Only by making such a statement will our treatment at the hands of these inbred chinless clowns be made known to many Scots who still believe we’re valued down there.

  368. orri says:

    Mass resignation by the SNP would afford the unionist MPs and MSPs a clear run at passing legislation unopposed.

    Technically the First Minister has an effective veto on devolved legislation at the risk of sparking a constitutional crisis both of which are well worth attempting in extremis. Should the SNP resign at Westminster there’s even less to prevent the Tories legislating. Should the SNP resign en-mass at Holyrood you’d have the unedifying sight of Ruth Davidson as First Minister quickly signing off on removal of as many devolved powers as possible.

    The way to force a new Holyrood election is for Sturgeon to resign the position of First Minister which might force a new election assuming the other parties don’t manage to elect a replacement. That also assumes that the lack of an agreed First Minister applies outwith the post election period so is worth checking.

    Mass withdrawal is one thing. Mass resignation is another.

  369. Brian Powell says:


    If that’s true then they are going to lose everything.

  370. Valerie says:


    I watched for hours last night. It’s not that I’m shocked, but I am disgusted on a very basic level regardless of party politics, at the blatant lack of respect for human rights.

    The right to have a view, the right to express an opinion.

    We saw an orchestrated performance to humiliate and denigrate others, and it was the other 3 nations, not just us.

    Yes, it should be compulsory viewing, like Soames woofing at Tasmina.

    I find injustice hard to watch, such as that racist on the train, the worst part of that, was no one stepping in among the passengers, because I would have been on my feet to tell that arsehole what he was.

    If we fail at gaining independence this time, I don’t want to live here under Tory rule. I know I’m not the only one thinking this way.

    I’m no tycoon, I won’t be missed at all, but I didn’t feel like this in 2014, and enough of my type leaving plus the young, gifted and skilled, which WILL happen, and Scotland will be really fcked.

  371. rog_rocks says:

    Ironic is it not, that the Speaker of the house of Commons blabs on about how he wouldn’t want Trump, being racist, to speak to the house of commons and then for his deputy, Lindsay Hoyle, to treat our Scots MP Joanna Cherry, in what is in my view, the racist manner that he did.

  372. Socrates MacSporran says:

    This is broad bursh thinking, others clever than I might like to fill-in the fine detail

    It is now absolutely clear, the 56 pro-Independence Scottish MPs simply cannot win within the House of Commons chamber. Mr Speaker Bercow may praise them for their assiduous atendance and for their contribution to the business of the House, but, as he showed recently – when push comes to shove, he is still a Tory who will do them down if he can.

    Last night’s performance from the Deputy Speaker, Lindsay Hoyle confirmed their is institutional bias against the SNP.

    Time for cleverer tactics from our MPs. I don’t know if it is possible, but, when next they are kicked in the teeth by the Tories and the institutions of Parliament, they ought perhaps to withraw from the House, but re-convene elsewhere. Surely the Westminster correspondents of the Scottish newspapers and BBC Scotland would be duty bound to follow them and report what happened.

    Since the Act of Union guarantees certain priveleges, in perpetuity to Scots Law and the Church of Scotland, our Scottish MPs could always take themselves off to what is surely Scottish territory in central London, the Church of Scotland’s St Columba’s Church, in Pont Street and meet there.

    After all, not attending Parliament did not harm Gerry Adams and the other Sinn Fein MPs who were elected but chose not to take-up their seats. OK, the SNP may not have an armed militia behind them, but, they would be seen to have right on their side.

    We have to be smarter and cleverer than the Tories, which should not be that difficult.

    Time for our MPs to become our SAS – Scotland’s Ace Separatists.

  373. Les Wilson says:

    Wow, just caught the vid of the speaker closing down J.Cherry,
    what an arrogant prat. I hope that clip goes viral.
    We, the converted know just what this “union” is, a corrupt shithole.

    Our MP’s should stay there and create havoc at every turn. Democracy is ok, as long as it is english democracy, but even then….

    The more disruptions, the more protests we make, the worse the responses will be, the more they will show more and more disrespect for Scotland. The more opportunities for their contempt to go viral.More Scots, of all kinds will not take it kindly.
    That is all to the good.

  374. heedtracker says:

    Lindsay Hoyle, to treat our Scots MP Joanna Cherry, in what is in my view, the racist manner that he did.”

    We Scots are not a race. Neither are the English.

  375. Robert Peffers says:

    @Macart says: 7 February, 2017 at 8:40 am:

    ” … Dear God, that’s appalling. Is this it? This is better together in the UK?
    When do partners beg for scraps from a master’s table? When do partners ask for permission to speak to each other?

    Well I’ve said it often enough but is seems it takes something like this to get it through to some people who claim to be Indy supporters what the real situation is.
    (I do not mean you Macart).

    As far as the Westminster Establishment is concerned they are exactly what they openly claimed to be during Indyref 1 – “The Kingdom of England renamed as the United Kingdom, and that their legal partner, The Kingdom of Scotland, had been extinguished”.

    Ironically they cited as their proof the Treaty of Union that is legally the agreement of only two equally sovereign Kingdoms. Neither that Treaty, nor both Kingdom’s individual Act of Union does any such thing.

    Having got away with that strategy they immediately introduced EVEL and used the English law’s false claims of full sovereignty over Scotland to do so. And they also got away with that little strategy.

    They had, though, already set the scene for the adoption of their next bold step to change the whole fundamental structure of the United Kingdom from a legal union of two kingdoms into what Westminster has wished it to be since long before Robert Bruce won independence for the Kingdom of Scotland.

    They had already, openly and with little or no opposition, changed the fundamental structure of the Union to be as they always wished it to be. Westminster had become the de facto parliament of the country of England and had been running the United Kingdom as the country of England as the masters over the three other countries and was thus the masters and the Scots, Welsh and Irish were the country of England’s subservient dominions.

    All that remained was to now make their changes stick and they had already thought that one through too. Hence the creation of the Supreme Court of a United Kingdom that was now not being run as a United Kingdom but as the parliament of the country of England.

    To state it bluntly – if the United Kingdom is no longer a union of two equally sovereign kingdom then a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms no longer exists – Ergo there is no longer an actual United Kingdom and the title, “United Kingdom, obviously no longer describes the actual set-up.

    So the real big lie is that Westminster is still, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom”. It cannot be both the de facto Kingdom of the country of England and still remain The Parliament of the United Kingdom because they have ceased to treat Scotland as a Kingdom but only as a conquered country under the control of the Country of England.

    Now we are in, “The End Game”, To finish the job to subsume the Kingdom, (and the country), of Scotland and make Westminster just what they intended all that is required is to stand their ground in Westminster and force the Scottish MPs out of everything by sheer weight on numbers and they hope the job is done.

    They have, though, neglected to take into account that in spite of their best efforts the Unionists no longer have control at Holyrood and are in grave danger of losing control of the Scottish Local Councils and by Brexit they have bitten off more than they can chew.

    Other than that they have established, in their eyes, that Scotland can safely be ignored and can do nothing to prevent it.

    Yet we still have people on Wings who still cannot see that all this is entirely due to the basic fact that Westminster assumed, long before the Union, that English sovereignty was superior to Scottish sovereignty and it has nothing to do with the fact that the only basic difference between the two claims of sovereignty is that under English law Her Majesty is still legally their, “Sovereign”, and they apply that sovereignty, and English law, to the rest of the countries in the now wrongly titled, “United Kingdom”.

    It cannot be a United Kingdom when divided up as four countries with one of those countries ruling over the other three.

  376. Robert Peffers says:

    The Parliament Channel 131. Has just began to show the committee debating the UK’s Trade options after 2019.

    They must be already getting on with setting up the post Brexit trade agreements even before they are out of the EU.

  377. Macart says:

    @Robert Peffers

    It made for grim viewing Robert.

  378. DerekM says:

    @ Valerie

    I would not blame anybody for a second if that is what they decided to do should we lose Valerie.

    And i would be lying if i said i had not thought about it myself.

    The closer we get to A50 the uglier it is going to get,they really want us to have indyref2 in place before they sign A50,they can then use indyref2 to kick A50 into the long grass by claiming an internal UK referendum and then we would be in trouble.

    That is why they are screaming no indy,block indy they wish us to jump the gun.

    Though they have a slight problem in that collectively they are not as smart as Nicola is 😉

  379. Fred says:

    @ Pool, great stuff & nearer our own time was the sacking of Dundee by General Monck & the massacre of 1200 men, women & children. Most folk have heard of Cromwell & Drogheda but when do you hear Dundee mentioned?

  380. Les Wilson says:

    Fred says:
    Did not know that myself, shamefully. It is a result of the history we are NOT taught!

  381. Les Wilson says:

    O/T sorry, but I saw and photo’d one of these yesterday going from Chapelhall to Newhouse. It was as straight as a road and Black. it was wider than a motorway.
    Just wondered if any others saw it too. There is stuff on google and a lot of examples on Youtube that seems they are now everywhere, dispersed by planes. it is scary stuff.

    This is not my photo but it is the same virtually. Have others seen this too? never seen anything like it before.

  382. Breeks says:

    I don’t think Scottish democracy has ever been so starkly exposed as the sham that it is.

    The Sewel convention is as meaningless as the Vow, yet another fraud to sugar the pill of political subjugation. The Supreme Court which has no jurisdiction over Scottish sovereignty yet its judgement is respected. Why? The Westminster speaker can tell a Scottish MP, an elected spokesperson for the sovereign people of Scotland, to hold her tongue and sit down.

    What are you going to do SNP? Accept your subjugation? Sit down, hold your tongue and bear witness to the extinguishing of Scotland’s very existence?

    Fight fire with fire SNP. Call an assembly of all Scotland’s elected MP’s, both those from Westminster and Holyrood, and sit together outside the Holyrood chamber and invoke Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty. Reconvene the first sovereign parliament of Scotland to sit in over 300 years. Send a bold and uncompromising reminder to Westminster that your power is not that which is delegated to you from Westminster, but that which rises from beneath, from the sovereign people of Scotland.

    If Westminster can interpret the Act of Union as the Death Warrant of Scotland, and expect to carry on with impunity, then all you can do to reciprocate is to step back from the same Act of Union rendered so obsolete by Westminster.

    The Act of Union, incompetent from its inception, breached, and violated repeatedly by everyone; everyone that is, except those who are held in contempt and illegitimate subjugation by prison bars which only exist in our imagination; Aye, that Union at long last is dead.

  383. Les Wilson says:

    Only the first part of the video posted deals with chemtrails forget other things on it. I was only talking about what I saw and photo’d.

  384. Lenny Hartley says:

    Thepnr re Snp voters voting no, one I know is a fanatical follower of a recently formed football team in Glasgow who votes Snp for good governance and is a very hard no. You go and figure it out , I can’t.

  385. liz says:

    A lot of folk lately are pushing for the SNP to walk out/resign.

    Whilst there will be people who genuinely believe that for good reasons, there will be many stirrers who are punting this for their own ends.

    If the SNP walk out, it will be a victory for the unionist parties.
    The BBC corp media would have a field day, saying only Lab, LD’s will stand up for Scotland against the evil tories.
    We must remember not many people will watch anything to do with politics but will read the headlines.

    They are doing a wonderful job, taking it on the chin for the rest of us and if even only one more person comes over to yes if they see the contempt it will be worth it.

  386. Meg merrilees says:


    Sorry, but there was a case recently in the Scottish courts where a Scotsman was convicted of road rage against a female driver and charged with ‘racist abuse’ after he made unacceptable remarks about the accent of her English boyfriend.

    Truly can’t remember when, but I did comment about it on this site and wondered when we would start to hear about convictions for anti-Scottish ‘racist’ remarks being penalised in Southern courts.

    (Think it was round about the time of Andy Murray’s knighthood announcement and was in relation to the abusive comments after newspaper articles about Nicola, Andy etc)

  387. Breeks says:

    If the SNP walk out it will be a victory for the Unionist parties?

    I disagree Liz. It will be the end of the Union. The Sovereign parliament of Scotland will stand apart from the sovereign parliament of England for the first time in three centuries.

    The dramatic act is not walking out from Westminster, but calling for the sovereign parliament of Scotland to sit. It need not even declare the Act of Union revoked. Why bother? Let others Write its epitaph, then watch the Unionists then expend themselves trying to patch the holes in their Act of Union. Too little, too late.

    A small but important point of order: The breach has already occurred. It isn’t the SNP who left Westminster, it was the Deputy Speaker of Westminster who silenced and ejected the sovereign voice of Scotland.

    Let the first motion of Scotland’s sovereign parliament be to announce a plebiscite to determine Scotland’s constitutional future, and the second motion to seek international recognition of Scotland’s sovereign status. Let us be done with this.

  388. crazycat says:

    @ pool9 at 3.12

    This is why I think it would be good to simply have access to the original links, to put them side by side and let them speak for themselves. To have an archive of clear, punchy images with simple text to ram the contradictions home.

    This contributor to Twitter has a vast range of such images:

    For example:

    They look like posters – maybe they should be displayed as such. Maybe they are but I just haven’t seen them.

  389. crazycat says:

    @ Nana

    I read your earlier link about the councillor accused of fraud.

    How very surprising (!) that his party was only mentioned in the last line. (That’s why I read it, of course, to see if that was the case.)

  390. Nana says:


    Indeed isn’t it always the case whenever a unionist is involved. As we know had it been an snp councillor, mp or msp the media would be screaming about it several times a day.

  391. Jack Murphy says:

    Breeks said at 8:26am:
    “…………Follow Nanas link below. It’s a very important slip of the tongue which is dropping off the other clips beginning to circulate. It’s at 4min point in the video.

    Well worth a look for the early afternoon readers.

  392. heedtracker says:

    Meg merrilees says:
    7 February, 2017 at 12:00 pm

    Its unlikely that the conviction was for racism though, more likely breach of the peace. Its bigotry not racism.

  393. geeo says:

    Here is the transcript of the “exchanges” between the clown Hoyle and the SNP.

    With an excellent summing up post ‘debate’ by Anne Mclaughlan.
    Yesterday was the day when every Scot, regardless of political leaning should have been conclusively made aware the disrespect that the majority of the Westminster parliament and in particular the current British government hold them in.
    I can only call much of the governments disdain towards not just the SNP but the wishes of the people of Scotland to be heard as being despicable.
    If anyone was in any doubt of the vacuity of the statements made previously by Westminster, of Scotland being a valued equal partner in the Union, yesterdays debate at the committee stage of the European (Notice of Withdrawal) Bill should have shown them up for being the utter dross that they were.

    The events which followed in the 7 hours of debate, finishing at midnight, would have left those few that watched them threatening to destroy their television sets in anger.

    3 major amendments from those of the devolved administrations of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland, asking that they be consulted properly by the Westminster government with respect to matters which directly impacted on each of these Countries be respected, were each dismissed out of hand by Westminster. On the 2 of the amendments with regards to Northern Ireland and Wales Labour voted in favour of the amendments so their loss was not by all that much of a majority. The Scottish amendment was utterly trounced because Labour abstained.

    However the manner in which the SNP were dealt with, and the manner in which they were denied voice was incredible. In the whole 7 hours, they were afforded a mere 4 speakers. While 2 Torys took up a third of the time available filibustering for half an hour each in order to deny debate, the scenes involving Joanna Cherry MP as she sought to speak was beyond belief.

    Joanna Cherry

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    I rise to speak in support of amendment 46, which stands in my name and that of my hon. Friends, but before that I would like to take the opportunity to thank Conservative Members who have spoken this evening for their quite extraordinary display of hubris and contempt towards amendments, laid by several different parties, that simply seek to make sure that the reality of the modern British constitution and devolved settlement is respected. Those of us who believe that Scotland would be better off managing its own affairs as an independent member of the EU will have received a huge boost this evening from their behaviour. It was a pleasure to listen to the speech of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). I am sure he will forgive me if I say that I suspect that the cause of a united Ireland has also received a boost this evening. I very much hope so.

    I will be brief so that others from my party might have a chance to speak. The purpose of amendment 46 is to require the Prime Minister to obtain the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Irish Assembly before she triggers article 50. It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to correct the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) and his woeful misunderstanding of what the Supreme Court did, and did not say, in relation to legislative consent motions. It said that, as currently framed in the Scotland Act, it is not legally enforceable. It did not say that it had no meaning whatsoever. The hon. Member for Foyle quoted paragraph 151 of the judgment, and I very much suggest that Conservative Members read the judgment, rather than simply taking from it what they want. It said:

    “The Sewel Convention has an important role in facilitating harmonious relationships between the UK parliament and the devolved legislatures. But the policing of its scope and the manner of its operation does not lie within the constitutional remit of the judiciary”.

    Mr Vara

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    Joanna Cherry

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    I am not going to give way. I am going to—

    The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)

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    Order. I ask the hon. and learned Lady to take her seat. I have been very kind in bringing in the SNP, and I ask that she not take advantage of the time—[Interruption.] Order. I wanted to share the time, so I hope that she is coming to an end, so that we can get one more speaker in, as I promised I would do by allowing her to speak.

    Joanna Cherry

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    The purpose of the amendment is to require the Government to do what they said they would do when they introduced the Scotland Act, which was to make the Scottish Parliament the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world, and give it a say in a process that will fundamentally affect the rights of Scottish citizens and Scottish business. [Interruption.] I noted that Government Members were given as much time as they wanted to make their points, and I intend to take as much time, as is my right, to make my points.

    The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)

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    Order. I think that the hon. and learned Lady’s speech has come to an end. Let us now please hear from the Minister.

    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr Robin Walker)

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    Thank you, Mr Hoyle. [Interruption.]

    The Chairman

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    Mr Salmond, you should know better. [Interruption.] Order. One second.

    11.45 pm

    Alex Salmond

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    On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. It is clear that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) had not resumed her seat, Sir. Being in the Chair accords you many privileges, but you cannot reinterpret the wishes of an hon. Member who is on her feet.

    The Chairman

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    As the occupant of the Chair, I have the right to make decisions in this Committee. [Interruption.] Just a moment. I rightly wanted to bring in the hon. and learned Lady, which I did. When the SNP Whip comes and asks me to give a couple of minutes to ensure that the SNP has another voice, which I did, I certainly do not expect advantages to be taken of the Chair on the agreement that I met. That is the issue. Sit down.

    Mr Walker

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    Thank you for your chairing of this debate, Mr Hoyle. [Interruption.]

    The Chairman

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    Calm down, Mr Wishart. This is a very serious matter. It is so serious that I want to hear what the Minister has to say in response to where we are. It is very serious and I want to hear it.

    Mr Walker

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    This is a hugely important debate. [Interruption.]

    The Chairman

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    Order. Mr Salmond, will you clarify something for me?

    Alex Salmond

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    Other Members have been making their contributions without any admonition from the Chair.

    The Chairman

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    Order. Tempers are running quite high. We need to calm it down. In fairness, I have been very generous in coming into the Chair—[Interruption.] Mr Wishart, we do not need any extra help for the moment. Let me say that I want to hear, and Mr Salmond would expect to hear, what the Minister has to say in response to the opening speeches. I believe Mr Salmond would have wanted answers. The fact is that this Committee wants to hear what the Minister has to say. The last thing I wanted to do was to take up time dealing with points of order. In the end, if we do that, we will not hear from the Minister. I understand that you, Mr Salmond, may have used some unparliamentary language to me, but I am sure that you are not that kind of person and I am sure you did not do so.

    Alex Salmond

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    I did not.

    The Chairman

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    I am saying that I am sure that was not the case. I did not accuse you; far from it. Let us now get the Minister on his feet.

    Mr Walker

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    Thank you, Mr Hoyle.

    We have heard from all four corners of the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] Everyone who has spoken in the debate agrees on the importance of engaging closely with the devolved Administrations and legislatures as we embark on the forthcoming negotiations.

    Ian Blackford

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    On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. I have to say that I have great respect for you as the Chairman, but I hope you can understand the frustration that we all feel that only two SNP Members have been called to speak in this debate, which is important for the future of Scotland and our position within Europe. I am asking what you can do, Mr Hoyle, to make sure that the voice of the people of Scotland is heard correctly in this debate. It has not been heard this evening.

    The Chairman

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    I assumed my place in the Chair, and I have tried to ensure that a second SNP voice was heard, and we were listening to that. That is what I agreed to, and that is what I have done. In fairness, I think the SNP has done better than it was going to otherwise, in which case, let us hear what the Minister has to say.

    That all was just the lid coming off the teapot

    Here is the link to the whole debate in Hansard
    I would draw your attention to exchanges in columns 140… Letwin/MacDonald/Harper

    142 Blackford

    145 Deputy Chair

    148 Tasmina Ahmed-Sheik

    154 Redwood

    165 Edwards

    167 Paterson/Salmond

    177 Elphick/Blackford/Salmond

    EU Withrawal Bill Debate

    And Finally….at the end of the evening…..the reaction of Anne McLaughlin MP.

    Anne McLaughlin MP.

    So that was a long night in the House of Commons. It was 1.15am before I was on my way home after an eventful day.

    In 8 hours of debate, 4 MPs representing Scottish constituencies got to speak. At the end of the first debate every Tory and Labour MP who wanted to speak, got to do so. 1 Lib Dem was refused as were 7 SNP MPs.

    One of the 4 was Joanna Cherry. After 2 minutes (when many others had spoken for around 20 mins each) the Deputy Speaker saiid he expected her to finish up, that he had been kind enough to let the SNP speak and she should not abuse it.

    Joanna rightly carried on. So he told her she was done. Unbelievable. Alex Salmond raised a point of order and about 12 of us walked out in disgust.

    Incidentally, when the deputy speaker was telling us to get back in our box, Labour folk were cheering. Angela Eagle’s “hear hear”s were very loud and animated.

    It’s not about the SNP being treated badly particularly and it’s certainly not about us individually. But you elected us to represent you and If we are not allowed to speak we are not allowed to represent you.

    It’s ridiculous. I am glad I walked out. Joanna was right to stand her ground. We shouldn’t have to fight for the right to fight for you.

    Right it’s 2am and I’ve to be back there at 8.30am so I am off to bed. Thanks for all the emails.

  394. Sandy says:

    sensibledave @09.30.

    My point re civil war. That war would be within the confines of England when the population there come to realise what their ruling classes have imposed upon them as they look down from their ivory towers.

  395. Ghillie says:

    Linsay Hoyle was so beside himself he was choking on his tongue!

    Totally out of his depth, a disgrace to so called Parliamentary procedure, and together with many many of his colleagues could not disguise his contempt for Scotland, the people of Scotland and our chosen representatives.

    I feel that, as expected, the tone of yesterday’s ‘debate’ was a turning point in our work towards Independence.

    Much as I would love to see the SNP walk out enmass I do expect Scotland’s MPs to do exactly what is in our very best interests.

    The SNP MPs know what they are doing.

    The bulk of the rest of Westminster are useless fools.

  396. Sharney Dubs says:

    Dear all, please excuse the OT as you guys would put it, but I read this piece somewhere that got me thinking and I think it should be brought to the attention of people in the know, if they have not thought of it already. If they have sorry for wasting your time.
    Hers my wee rant that has been festering inside since the news of the deal between chrysaor and shell.
    Chrysaor have taken on a shed load of mature assets together with a sweetener of interests in more profitable fields. On the basis of …if they don’t someone else will…then good luck to them moving forward. The deal was approved by the oil and gas authority. government approval. In the deal shells decommissioning exposure is limited to only usd1billion for the entire bundle.

    A quick look at the balance sheet shows a provision of $27.8 billion ( if I’m understanding what I’m looking at ) as at the end of 2015….that’s before any bg provision to be added consolidation.

    If the government is a stake holder in major oil companies then they are in effect divesting itself of the responsibility and financial burden and gaining by the write back of the provision for decommissioning.

    In light of the fact that bp are about the follow suit as will others is it not right for the burden of decommissioning to stick to the companies pro rated on say production over the fields life. These hot potatoes will ultimately be passed on and on down to where It’s not inconceivable for a company limited by liability to not have the resources or the will to cope….who will pay for decommissioning then…

  397. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “And that the Court of Justiciary do also after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union

    What part of that highlighted in bold bit do you not understand?”

    You are an expert at “understanding” the shite you have quoted.

    How many times do I have to tell the likes of you?

    Any claimed “sovereignty” of the Scots is not worth the paper it is written on.

    Scotland gets out of the EU despite voting by a majority to remain, and has no right to say anything about it.

    What sort of “sovereignty” is that?

  398. Rock says:


    “I don’t think Scottish democracy has ever been so starkly exposed as the sham that it is.

    The Sewel convention is as meaningless as the Vow, yet another fraud to sugar the pill of political subjugation. The Supreme Court which has no jurisdiction over Scottish sovereignty yet its judgement is respected. Why? The Westminster speaker can tell a Scottish MP, an elected spokesperson for the sovereign people of Scotland, to hold her tongue and sit down.

    What are you going to do SNP? Accept your subjugation? Sit down, hold your tongue and bear witness to the extinguishing of Scotland’s very existence?”

    At least Robert Peffers and yourself can shout about our pretendy “sovereignty” from the rooftops.

    The SNP leadership is smart enough to recognise that our pretendy “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it is written on and is no basis for gaining independence.

  399. rog_rocks says:


    When it suits it is regarded as racism when it happen the other way around…

    And I did mention that it was my opinion!

    Also with the higher tendency to have red hair and a be bit paler, I do believe that the average Scots are likely to contain slightly more Neanderthal DNA in their gene’s, something that some recent theories have shown to be the main difference between the ‘so-called’ races.

    Red hair and pale skin are traits of Neanderthal man, whereas black skin and dark hair are traits of homo-sapiens.

    There are of course everything in between and beyond in today’s world!

  400. yesindyref2 says:

    Looking at Davidson’s twitter, she still has the graphic about the poll result – in spite of Curtice having corrected it on his blog. I see she’s now put up another twisted graphic.

    She don’t do honesty.

  401. yesindyref2 says:

    Forgot to say – Davidson still has that incorrect “27% Indy Ref 2 years” – and so does Curtice who should know better. He corrected his voting intention article, but NOT his 2nd Indy ref article.

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