Red rosettes and cardboard boxes
A poll conducted by a Scottish Asian radio station and reported in today’s Sunday Herald offers the encouraging news that 64% of its listeners back a Yes vote in the independence referendum, exactly twice as many as those planning to vote No (32%, for those of you with hangovers).
But in a week which seems to have left Yes supporters excited and buoyant – despite what the media has frantically attempted to spin as bad news – the piece also contained a few sobering quotes that illustrate the nature and size of the wall the Yes campaign has to scale if it’s to emerge victorious.
They don’t appear in the online version of the article, but they’re in the print version. The fact that they all come from Asian Scots is incidental. The words below depict an attitude that’s still deeply ingrained across all creeds and cultures in Scotland, which is crumbling all the time but which still plagues Scottish political life.
“Newsagent Shaukat Hussain, 60, will vote No. He says the Asian community’s vote is still for Labour.
‘I have always voted Labour since I came here years and years ago. The Iraq war didn’t change my vote because I vote for Scottish Labour.'”
“His wife Shahida, 52, has been a member of the Scottish Labour Party for 20 years and will toe the party line.
‘I will always be Labour and I will only vote Yes… if it is the way the Labour Party wants to go.'”
“In an IT repair shop, businessman Ahmed, 26, said:
‘I’m a Labour voter, and I’m voting No as I think Scotland cannot survive on its own. If we think about the North Sea oil, it’s only a matter of time before that runs out.'”
We don’t think it’s inaccurate to say that the first two in particular are examples of blind, unthinking tribal party loyalty. Shahida Hussain says it right out in the open and upfront – she’s voting No because that’s what Labour tells her to do, and if they suddenly told her to vote Yes she’d do that too.
It’s an old truism that many Scots would vote for an empty cardboard box if it had a Labour rosette on it. (Other versions of that saying are available.) In the Dunfermline by-election, Labour fielded the next-best thing they could find and still won. The quotes above could have been garnered in almost any city or town in Scotland, from people of any colour or faith. We all know someone who could have said them.
Yes supporters are buzzing this week. Polls are nudging upwards, and many Scots seem to have been enraged by George Osborne’s ham-fist-in-an-iron-glove attempt at bullying them. But 300 years of being cowed, sneered at and belittled don’t just vanish in a few months. The Cringe is still strong in Scotland, as is “Ma faither voted Labour”. It’ll take all of the Yes campaign’s strength and dedication to defeat them.
Had long discussion with a “don’t know” at a Yes town centre stall yesterday…very much an “old Labour” guy and looked up to guys like Donald Dewar and John Smith. Absolutely detests the Tories but rates what SNP have done in Holyrood. Sympathetic to Indy at the moment and disparaging of Osbourne’s actions last week. I would bet money come the day that he’ll vote Yes.
If people are too stupid to vote for what they believe in and not what their mum, dad or even shep the collie voted they’re too thick to have a vote.
I’m getting seriously peed off with that kind of tribalism FFS wake up and smell something it could be the coffee or the BS peddled by Anus Sarwar and its pals
Its strange that some people will blindly follow Labour if Sarwar came out tommorow and told them all to take their life would their be mass suiside?
I suspect many are not bright enough to analyse the right ways shift of Labour… But surely a few understood Milliband’s recent promise to govern like Thatcher?
Dedicated we are. We, the foot soldiers are doing absolutely everything we can to win this referendum. 🙂
I remember canvassing for George Reid and encountering one particular guy whose opening gambit was the tried and trusted ‘Tartan Tory’ line. I t took some time but by gently explaining things about principles and standing up for them and honour etc etc I thought I was making headway.
Alas his final remark just took the wind from my sails.
“Listen son. I hear what you’re saying and you’re probably right but I’ve been a Rangers Supporter all my life and I’ve been a Labour Supporter all my life and I’ll continue to support them through thick and thin. I’ll tell you what though I’ll make a deal with you. When Rangers end up in Division 2, I’ll vote SNP but we both know that’s not going to happen.
Wonder if he’s as good as his word.
I know we have it bad in UK but its even worse here in Malaysia. Current gov in power for 60 years. state run tv, political corruption and murder, fixed voting, you name it they do it. Slowly changing though and the once BN unwavering loyalty is dying out as the old pass away and the young question why they have nothing in a rich oil fueled economy. cant wait to come home to vote for real democracy, just sad that Malaysia copied the uk system of holding on to power at any cost.
There is a problem when the disingenuous, manipulative, destructive side of Labour is not made public, and even suppressed.
This in the Sunday Post:
“It is poetic that Baroness Jay finds herself chairing the committee considering these issues — her father, Jim Callaghan, was the Prime Minister who set Scottish devolution in train when he agreed to the first referendum on the issue back in 1979 as part of a deal to keep his lame duck Labour administration in power. That referendum was won, but not on a big enough turnout, delaying the return of a Scottish Parliament by 20 years.”
Note the phrase, “but not a big enough turnout”.
The 79 Referendum was where a Labour MP, at the last minute, introduced the requirement that it needed 40% of registered voters to make the Yes vote valid. That means, even voters who didn’t vote or were ill or for some reason couldn’t make it to the polling station weas counted as No.
The vote was Yes, in a country where first past the post is the accepted requirement for victory.
A Labour MP delayed the introduction of a devolved Scottish Parliament by 20 years.
Incidentally Callaghan was not really interested in a Parliament of any kind in Scotland.
I think they vote Labour because somehow its engrained in their psyche, that voting Labour equates to, somehow fairness for the common people, that Labour represent the people. That may have been true during Ramasy Macdonald’s or Bevan’s time, but certainly not now.
As you say Rev, some things will take longer (much longer) than others to overcome, and this flawed type of mentality doesn’t help progress.
it will be interesting to see how the majority of the SE Asian community votes at the referendum. While England and the Tories are usually associated with bigotry, Aisans tend towards being very loyal towards the Labour party. I worry somewhat about the vote from that section of the Scottish population, as even the invasion of Iraq was not enough to put the SE Asian population off Labour (in Scotland anyway)
In fairness, this affects both sides. The SNP have their own faithful behind them, the difference is that Labour has a longer history of being the party of the working class and once you have party allegiances ingrained in the electorate it’s difficult to remove them.
That’s why floating voters are so important. There’s probably a solid 25% on either side of the independence debate who won’t change their opinion regardless of what happens, but that still leaves a lot of people who can be swayed one way or the other.
That’s why these type of people need to be directed to LFI.
I read on the LFI site that they are going to have a presence at the next Lab Conference.
So hopefully they will get their message across.
There is a problem here for the Yes campaign. BT are playing Vote Yes and its a vote for Salmond and the SNP. They know that if people actually took time out to establish the facts then they would tend to be swayed towards Yes. Equally the Yes camp are not going to win over people by being abusive or dismissive. Engage them on the facts and not their voting history.
When up against blind faith loyalty it is very easy to present a few facts of current political life that gets folk actually thinking. It is then only a few more steps until you have a convert. We need to keep chipping away at this attitude at every chance we get…
Cheesy peas.
@Jim “Equally the Yes camp are not going to win over people by being abusive or dismissive.”
I think that’s absolutely right and a point that at times might be overlooked. Floating voters are, naturally, going to have doubts. They’re not going to be sold on independence 100% and will see bad points as well as good ones (that’s what makes them floating voters). Some of those bad points will be completely legitimate.
Taking a hard line and launching into a tirade about how you would have to be an idiot not to support independence is self defeating in that context. I see that in online discussions a lot and it always makes me cringe – the net effect of it is actually to make an enemy of the people the Yes campaign are trying to win over.
Sorry for the O/T, I’m at work, and I’m sorry if it has been posted before.
One for the record.
link to news.stv.tv
We mustn’t underestimate the way in which the labour Party (through word of mouth) has been putting the fear of God into a lot of minority peoples in Scotland.
They have participated in whispering campaigns about what nationalism would mean for Asians, Catholics, Protestants, The English, The Polish.
People have fears ingrained into them by the Labour Party over years, and at the same time the same labour Party assure them that they are the only party who can or will, protect them.
I detest the labour Party in Scotland now, and will endeavour to make sure that they are decimated, once Scotland gets her independence.
It will be really interesting to see how their conference goes in March, the MP’s are lining up against JoLa and her inept leadership but too late to change it but damage could be done.
My Grandad and my Dad always voted Labour and my Mum always voted Tory and they all voted SNP last time and they will vote YES in September. Times they are a changin, your sons and your daughters are beyond your command and the order is rapidly fading, future PM Milliband.
I see it has not taken long (a matter of weeks) for the said cardboard box for Dunfermline West to vote for the council budget (she’s still a councillor) that may see the local schools closed that she campaigned to keep open.
Lies? Incompetence? Both?
Lets not attack the Labour Party just their leadership’s deals with Osborne and Cameron.
Now that the debate has gone “national” on the BBC the Yes vote will only increase as we are subjected to patronising ignorance.
And Peter Hitchins in Mail on Sunday “I think we have lost Scotland”
link to archive.is
For goodness sake why turn this great story into a a greetfest. Two to one in favour of Yes is an excellent result. So, someone who’s a Lab members is voting No. They’re allowed to.
In fact “I’ll vote No because that’s what Labour say” is exactly what my mother said to me when we discussed the indyref.
However, I feel we’re starting to make real headway in making many Labour voters separate their party loyalty from their intended indyref vote.
The recent high-profile Labour figures from the past, such as Charles Gray, will actually have more impact on this demographic than anything we can say, and that’s why we have to let Labour4Indy take the lead there.
And it’s significant that the people quoted are Labour Party members, not just Labour voters. And Labour Party members, as we know, are a shrinking group!
One of my main concerns in respect of all parties in the yes/no debate centres around the global financial meltdown that is the post. Not one single big hitter from anywhere has yet to be published in the generally available media to the effect that any reference to even fragile recovery is probably wishful thinking and possibly cravenly bogus.
Quantitative easing will eventually cause the collapse of the pound sterling, hanging on to which seems to be the bete noir that everyone is getting so het up about, taking the dollar and the euro and many emerging currencies with it at around the same time.
The reason for this is quite simple, in contrast to what our lords and masters tell us bailing out the banks by exchanging the toxic assets of all stripes that they created for government backed bonds did not have the ability to end the financial crisis. For the truth is that at best all it can do is to prolong the state of inertia that can clearly be seen in the post intervention world where real productivity growth is sadly lacking.
The measly growth that they have managed to portray as evidence that their policies are working is the result of massively fiddling the rates of inflation and rapidly increasing the total debt burden to inflate another housing bubble.
The fact that almost all the people at the top of the west’s financial greasy pole learnt their craft at the giant vampire squid of banking excess, Messrs Goldman Sachs (an organisation that sold securities to their mug punter clients that they were betting would fall in value) is the principal reason to take the bleatings of George Osborne with a sack of salt.
Robert Minsky stated that there are three types of investor. Hedge investor, Speculative investor and Ponzi investor. Things have moved on since then, now we essentially have three types of citizens. Hedge citizens those doing very nicely indeed not many of the about in Scotland I fear. Speculative citizens not doing so well as before as their incomes have largely stagnated but as many of them don’t hold large mortgages on their homes when push comes to shove they should be cushioned from the calamities that await the Ponzi citizens.
Ponzi citizens that are homeowners live in small overpriced boxes and are for the moment due to the deliberate policy of low interest rates just about keeping their heads above water. If they are not homeowners and can’t find the increasingly scarce shelter of social housing they live in massively overpriced rented properties often needing housing benefit in addition to the income from full time work to pay their way. They are often forced to use bottom feeders such as Wonga etc to put food on their tables. And when the next crash comes in the not too distant future many of these people will be crushed. The final category of citizen is the unwaged underclass, what is left of this class after the current war being waged upon them by the current government, a war that was promulgated with no less gusto by the previous government I might add, might be a snapshot of what faces a significant proportion of the population if we fail to grasp the nettle and vote for independence.
And if we do win our freedom from the economic hegemony that has been thrust upon us by the elites of Wall St and The City of London aided and abetted by their bought and paid for lackies in the White House and Downing Street we must make sure that our new masters are made aware that the new broom we wanted sweeps the stables clean of the old muck that passed for economic stability.
The nonsense that bankers and other purveyors of financial services do not go to jail when they nick out money must end. The nonsense that tax codes and regulations are so opaque and easily manipulated that wealthy individuals and corporations pay what they want rather than what they are obliged to must also end. If they do not like this let them go somewhere else.
Real change must come if we win our independence, we must not swap one set of trough snuffling bounders for a new parvenu elite that have a sense of entitlement far greater than their discernable talent.
Barossos been bumping his gums again saying Scotland has no chance of retaining membership of the EU saying we’ll need the agreement of all 28 members and the unspoken assertion is ,we don’t have agreement from all of them, I wonder who he means?
Im sure I read today somewhere that flippers long standing election agent has turned to YES. Must be a blow and hopefully will join LFI.
Some threads are like recipes for soup. 🙂
Govan link to tinyurl.com
It’s my own fault – I really need to stop visiting the Guardian/Observer.
I went over to comment on Kevin McKenn’s article but the viseral hatred and bile is beyond belief.
There is some real anger being expressed.
When some poor soul comes on and makes a reasonable comment – they are ripped to shreds.
I’ve given up posting links which contradict the rubbish being posted as they just keep repeating the same lies over and over.
I really do hope most of these ignoramuses are being paid by BT cos if this is how folk really think, god help us all.
Paula,
I don’t agree that all have allegiance is to the Labour Party. I think you will find in Scotland at least there is a sizeable amount that community have supported the National Party for years. Certainly here is Dundee.
Here’s a wee song that might change the Hussain families mind, to vote yes, instead of no.
link to youtu.be
Spain are the culprits
Vote No and you’ll regret it , whatever Labour say.
Just read Sun on Sunday….I know cartoon paper! But there is a good piece from a guy called Anwar. Very much to the point and a Yes!
Good article on pensions on Business for Scotland
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
O/T
Cheer up. We’ve just done our first canvass. We’re all likely to go down with pneumonia.
The results, though I don’t expect you’ll be interested, were No 20%, Don’t Know 27% and Yes 52%. Maybe it’ll be better next time 🙂
no pies, just fish.
I wonder when we’ll see Dennis Canavan unleashed? Looks to me like he’s been held in reserve up until now.
@Patrick Roden,
My local Asian shopkeeper has just asked me if I could drop off some Yes papers so he can offer them to customers.
Of course, it suits the No campaign to pursue a partisan approach, presenting the referendum as the SNP/Salmond versus everyone else, even though this is manifestly untrue.
‘I’m Labour and I’m voting No because I don’t like that Alex Salmond,’ is something I have had to deal with.
Launching into a defence of Alex Salmond is unlikely to cut any ice in this situation; and as I am not in the SNP an alternative approach comes quite easily. As patiently as possible, I respond:
‘You’re not being asked to vote for Alex Salmond. You’re not being asked to vote for the SNP. You’re not being asked to vote for any party’s specific policies. You are being asked for your view on where Scotland’s future ought to lie. That is all.’
I have to say, though, I don’t think some of the politicians on the Yes side are alert enough to the dangers of the partisan trap. They can be too easily lured into debating points of policy rather than points of principle. This is why it is often like a breath of fresh air when articulate non-politicos are given the opportunity to speak for Yes.
“Launching into a defence of Alex Salmond is unlikely to cut any ice in this situation”
Smarter: if people hate Alex Salmond, tell them they better vote Yes, because if they don’t he’ll be First Minister until he dies.
Without a No vote refreshing Scottish Labour by stopping the talent drain south, and with his life’s work still undone, who’s going to stop the SNP winning elections for a generation? Johann Lamont? EPIC LOLZ. Whereas if he wins, he’ll probably retire in 2016 or 2020.
SLAB voters just need to be told that they can vote for that party, and still vote Yes. No need to abuse the Labour Party, just say they can vote Labour in an independent Scotland. Point them towards LFI.
Buckie Braes
I agree we need more credible non political advocates of Indy.
Parts of Scotland are traditionally Labour voting just as the Welsh Valleys are. Last night I read something truly heartbreaking.
“Poverty is endemic. One nearby school keeps a box of shoes for children who arrive without anything suitable on their feet.”
Under the black and white picture reads the following caption. “In 1938 schools provided donated shoes – as they do today in the valleys”
I shared the story on twitter and was told by someone who works in a school in the area that it happens in her school.
link to bbc.co.uk
@Dave Beveridge
“I wonder when we’ll see Dennis Canavan unleashed? Looks to me like he’s been held in reserve up until now.”
I would think he has been critical to getting the likes of Sir Charles Gray and others to endorse and support independence.
@ANDY NIMMO
Leaving aside the technicality that they died. They ended in Division 3 last season. This season they are League One. Mind you they are in the third tier and that is lower than the second division, maybe after all that has happened to his team and hos party he went to the GREENS! 🙂
I’ve managed to convert at least 8 NOs/Undecideds in the last 3 canvass sessions.
“I wonder when we’ll see Dennis Canavan unleashed? Looks to me like he’s been held in reserve up until now.”
Dennis Canavan has been off the leash for some time now. He’s been doing a lot of YES meetings, central belt mostly I think.
I’m sure he’s being lined up for a YES meeting in Camelon Falkirk soon.
Check out YES Falkirk facebook page for an update.
There are still a lot of ‘blindly loyal’ Labour voters. But I think things are changing.
We had another day on the Yes stall yesterday. What struck me most was the number of people who walked up to the stall and opened with variations on “I’m a definite No, but…” They wanted to clearly establish that they were gong to vote No, before then asking us for answers to questions that were on their minds, or for information to fill gaps in their knowledge. I feel that many of the people who said “I’m a definite No” were really wanting to add “but I wish I wasn’t. Can you convince me?” These people are crucial to the vote in September, and all we need to do is make sure they get the information they need.
Another group well represented yesterday were traditional Labour supporters. People who have always voted Labour, whose parents always voted Labour, who still see Labour as the route to a fairer society for Scotland the rest of the UK. I was one of them until the illegal invasion of Iraq in the face of massive public demonstrations convinced me that if I wanted a fairer Scotland, independence was the only way of achieving it.
George Osborne’s crass attempt to bully Scotland on currency, egged on by the cowards of Labour and the Liberals, has turned out to be a similar trigger for many Labour voters in Scotland. They too see that what Labour promises and what they deliver are a long way apart. And people are not frightened by Westminster’s threat – they are angry. It should worry Better Together greatly that while many Scots who have always voted Labour will continue to do so, on 18th September they will also vote Yes for independence. I’m not sure though that the Unionists can see through their red mist sufficiently to recognise this truth, and their arrogance will be their downfall.
The most amazing experience of the day was another woman whose opening gambit was “Where do I sign up to vote No?”. We dutifully pointed out that we were supporting Yes, and while she could have a look at the Better Together website, actually finding the No campaign “in the wild” was pretty difficult. We also asked WHY she was voting no. “Because we’re too wee to survive. How can a wee country like Scotland go it alone? And I saw that guy on the telly saying we couldnae have the pound either.”
A few examples of successful small countries gave her pause for thought. So then she moved on to “But England bails us out and pays for our free tuition fees and that”. A quick rundown of the economic facts, the GERS figures, the idea that “for every pound we send to London, we get less than a pound back”, and again you could see her re-examining her views right in front of us.
She had a CND symbol on her bag, so we chatted about nuclear weapons: that they are kept on Scottish soil because they are seen as too dangerous to store near England’s population centres; that in an independent Scotland we would be rid of these obscene weapons of mass destruction. She hadn’t realised that, but faced with the facts she again re-assessed her opinions.
“So wait a minute, how come they want to keep us then?” We were about to respond, but she beat us to it. “Is it because we give them more money than we get back? Is it to keep the oil? Is it so they can keep their nuclear weapons up here in Scotland? I’ve just answered my own questions haven’t I?” It really was incredible to watch her shift from largely uninformed, more or less believing what the media told her, to a new position. Armed with some basic facts and her common-sense interpretation of what was behind them, she moved from unthinking no to probable Yes before our eyes. And she was angry. “Wait a minute, I’m going to get my man over here and you can tell him this too. We just thought Scotland was too wee to be independent. But that’s no right at all.”
It was a good day. More people than we’ve ever had before, and a heady mix of “I’ve always been Yes”, “I’m Yes after what Osborne said”, “I’m Labour but I’m Yes”, “I don’t know, but I want to find out”, and crucially “I’m a definite No, BUT…”
We handed out hundreds of the “Aye Right” leaflets complete with QR codes, so we should see another wee influx of readers on Wings, NNS and more. This is there to be won, and all we need to do is get information into the hands of the voters. We have nothing to be afraid of, and the facts and the arguments are on our side. Increasingly, so are the people of Scotland.
You’re always going to get individual anecdotes of people voting No for absolutely knuckle-dragging reasons. That’s not important, what’s important are the statistics, and the statistics at the top of the article are very encouraging.
Even BT seem to be “warning” of an expected blip in favour of Yes after last week. Getting their excuses in first and trying to imply that this will just be a temporary thing. Except I understand they have also noted privately that people who move to Yes overwhelmingly tend to stay Yes. The conversion rate the other way is negligible.
The first formal opinion poll to be taken after Osborne’s intervention will be extremely interesting.
That’s all very well but Yes Scotland needs to get him on TV and they’re not doing that. Darling is never off the bloody box. This has to change.
(discovered that a random word on Quarantine has the desired effect re comments – or is there another thread we could use?)
Dennis doesn’t dance to their tune as he is not SNP this fucks up the MSM who want us to believe that it’s Blighty versus that demon Salmond and the SNP but I would love to see Dennis debate with that daylight robbing world record blinker Flipper
Some very good reasons why we MUST become independent. Combined with various myth busting’s of the better Together camp.
Time for a mellow oldie from one of the sunnier parts of the empire. Lucky blighters. 🙂
Laurel Aitken – Judgment Day
link to youtube.com
Re Denis Canavan and getting him on the telly – I remember someone asking LFI why they weren’t trying harder to get their message out and they said that they were always informing the media of up-coming events but were ignored.
As other people said – this is deliberate as they want to keep it all Alex Salmond because he is so disliked by certain lab supporters.
Like and share link to facebook.com RT @labourforindy and put all your labour friends email addresses into the newsletter sign up or send the link to http://www.labourforindy.com should help some see sense
So far the Scottish Government has behaved very responsibly.
Imagine if they adopted Westminster intransigence and aggression?
What you would see is a Gilt Market wobbling as it became clear that the future on these islands was politically unstable.
Such is the economic imbalance, the level of debt and the dubious nature of the improvements in the economy and the precarious credit rating… It wouldn’t take much to see things start to unravel.
There is still a housing and debt bubble to contend with.
A smart Westminster government (with their hundreds of smart whitehall advisors) would be treading very carefully.
They could end up with a position where they have a neighbour who morally owes them 10% of the debt, but are struggling with their own currency and have been refused a fair share of the assets.
rUK would then have a position at 90% of their previous GDP versus 100% of the debt.
Fitch is going to be studying them.
Now If I had many gilts on that basis, I’d be demanding more interest on them. The bigger the risk, the bigger the interest needs to be.
rUK cannot afford interest payments to increase on 1.5 trillion of debt.
And to add to the trouble… the recovery is based on the QE effects on the stock market.. not on actual production capacity. There are those who are arguing that many businesses are still far from 2008 levels of productivity.
Interesting days indeed.
Osborne and Balls are gambling with what is left of the UK economy.
posts disappearing now
“posts disappearing now”
I delete all the one-word ones, as they’ve presumably done their job as soon as they appear.
M&S perfectly-formed oven chips
@Morag…
Its an interesting comment you make. Darling is indeed getting lots of airtime and articles everywhere. How does that work?
His equivalent in Canavan is rarely seen. Is this the BBC and MSM again? Or is Dennis just not as vocal and tuned in? Is he more of a grass-roots guy?
It is worth understanding what is going on here.
‘BETTER TOGETHER’ as a brand is becoming increasingly toxic
Lib-Lab-Con against the ordinary residents of Scotland?
Mr Osborne and Balls hegemonic intervention… a unilateral decision without reasonable discussion or explanation is basically saying ‘BETTER-STAY-TOGETHER’ or else.
I’d remind people that Cameron must have sanctioned their attempt to frighten the populace. (days after his ridiculous love bomb)
I propose that ‘Better Together’ should henceforth be known as ‘Better Supplicated’ because thats what they are really intending.
ericmac
They could end up with a position where they have a neighbour who morally owes them 10% of the debt
Don’t think we “Morally” owe them anything, Scotland has been in surplus the last 30 odd years, the vast majority of the UK debt has been run up by Brown, Darling and Osborne in the last 10 or so years.
We have been nice offering to pay some of this “British Aid” as Robert McAlpine put it so well in the Sunday Herald today. They cant have it both ways, if we are not a continuing state, then we don’t help to service their debt.
Simples
Wingman, I don’t know the answer, but I believe Yes Scotland is planning a big push over the summer. They always said this is a marathon not a sprint. Marathons are occasionally won by someone who gives it everything at the beginning and builds up an unassailable lead, but that’s unusual. It’s more important to keep in touch for the long run, and to have more in the tank for the finishing sprint.
Yes Scotland has kept in touch for over two years, but I think it also has a lot in the tank. An emotional appeal to national identity is one thing I think we’ll see nearer the day. Canavan slaughtering Darling on a regular basis is another, I hope.
Liz, I thank you for trying to correct the lies that appear in the Guardian/Observer CiF. I can sometimes hardly bear even reading it all sometimes. If its any comfort one recent Yes convert told me it was reading the CiF sections that encouraged him to find out more and eventually convince him that Yes was the only way.
“My faither voted labour”
Labour won’t be on the ballot paper in September.
# Welsh not British (@welshnotbritish)
After Scotland becomes an independent country, it will Wales turn..
O/T
Bankers suicides… Do they know something about the imminent collapse that we don’t?
link to business.financialpost.com
@jinglyjangly I agree. I was providing the most reasonable scenario.
I happen to believe that rUK will allow Scotland to walk without debts and without assets. I do think they will enter into a currency union at the same time.
They will sell this to the rUK on the basis of Total Asset value and Continuing State.
‘Smarter: if people hate Alex Salmond, tell them they better vote Yes, because if they don’t he’ll be First Minister until he dies.’
I do that as well, sometimes – horses for courses.
Don’t you mean, ‘Without a Yes vote refreshing Scottish Labour…’? Anyway Rev, what is this Labour ‘talent’ drain of which you write?
Streuth! Just visited the Spectator and Hamish MacDonnells article.There is one wee soul btl doing his best against a horde of the ignorant ,arrogant and demented.
I’m beginning to enjoy leaving them to froth away in their arrogant certainty – makes for amusing reading when they write daft things like ” cue the cybernats bile ridden ravings ” and nerry a cybernatty appears and they are left merrily raving away to each other.
Sorry O/T – Where we not due to hear from the European Commission this week coming re: Scotland’s position if there is a YES vote
I had a look at the Observer earlier today. The Guardian BTL comments used to be an interesting read and I occasionally contributed, but that was absolutely vile. I need a shower. And I won’t be back.
I’ve been reading some of the BTL comments on the Guardian.
What happened there? Has the Daily Mail taken over?
Something major has definitely shifted in the mindset down south.
Listen to the words… not Scottish Independence related, but the words are political and definately relevant.
New ‘Dub FX’ Album…
@wingman 2020 says:
16 February, 2014 at 7:01 pm
O/T
Bankers suicides… Do they know something about the imminent collapse that we don’t?
Our money supply system is riddled with corruption aided and abetted by complicit governments since coming off the gold standard in the 70’s.
“I’m beginning to enjoy leaving them to froth away in their arrogant certainty”
Which will be the case in an iScotland, so now seems like a good time.
I mean you don’t normally go commenting on e.g. German newspaper comments sections now do you. Nor of course do Germans reciprocate.
New article on Batemans blog regards slimy Barroso’s intervention and he hints that the upcoming statement from the EU, on the position of an indy Scotland may not be favourable. He bases this on the fact that oor own wee Scottish MEPs have been beavering away in the background for a time to attain an unfavourable decision for their own country. Shocking.
Somethings happening in Scotland and the South of England but I cannot figure it out yet. I think we have a bit of stormy period going on and whatever way it settles out it’s not going to be business as usual.
I suspect we are going to have increased polarisation in Scotland and between The YES voters and the South of England. It appears the North of England remains “neutral”
One thing I am certain off is that Osborne didn’t get the result he intended (or perhaps he did?)
@Morag
“That’s all very well but Yes Scotland needs to get him on TV and they’re not doing that. Darling is never off the bloody box. This has to change.”
Darling is the British state’s representative though. All kinds of things will be going on. It is no accident that Darling is always on the TV. The British establishment control the MSM. It really is that simple.
@liz 17:03
I stopped visiting Guardian web pages, where I posted as ‘a Bruce’, it was so pathetic and puerile in about 80% of comments regarding Scottish issues. I am walking away from the Guardian after 40 years of buying it. I find it has become more and more irrelevant to Scotland as the years have gone by. Last week the Observer gave some factoids referring to the “Scottish Assembly” formed in 1999. The Saturday editorial was the final straw. It seems independence for Kosovo is fine, but keep those stupid jocks in their place. Enough!
@tweetyourtea Ridiculously pretentious chicken nuggets with a vinegar drizzle
Can anyone help trace a belter of a Darling quote from last week?
It was a snippet played on Radio Scotland news, maybe Mon or Tue. I mentioned it in whatever thread was ongoing at the time. Must’ve been culled from a longer interview, but as a stand-alone it was hilarious:
‘It’s all just so complicated and it doesn’t make sense!’
That’s it pretty much word for word, and it does deserve an exclamation mark – you could hear the foam flecking on his lips, the eyelids going like the clappers. I can’t even remember what exactly he was on about. For sure, we’ve all uttered that sort of statement (in more or less embarrassing situations), but this guy used to be the Chancellor FFS!
You know, the media will have to continue to lie right up to the end as if they ever let the truth out, about who the subsidy junkies are, then oor friends down south would be furious. The big lie is perpetuated, not only on us up here, but also the rest of these islands. It can be infuriating discussing indy with folks down south, but we should remember that they are also fed pish. That’s why the big lie has lasted so long.
I’m seriously concerned about the comment updating fiasco. Regulars have learned that by posting even a single word they can get an update, but what about all our many lurkers or first-time visitors? This really should be sorted – not least because the comments are the best bit – and must hugely contribute to the 6min dwell time stat.
@kininvie
I was thinking of that earlier.
The Rev should maybe put up a temporary header saying that the site is having difficulties in updating at the moment.
@kininvie
How many people would read all the comments though? I would imagine a lot just read the articles.
In tones very reminiscent of Walter Cronkite telling the American viewers that the war in Vietnam is lost
Peter Hitchens in the Mail on Sunday is saying that Scots will vote for independence all thanks to the attitude of Westminster
link to archive.is
Kininvie, don’t knock the quality of the articles! Including your own.
The problem seems to be the interaction of the blog with the cache on individual machines. I believe people coming new to the site, having no cached version, will see everything initially. It should be possible to figure out what’s going on from the various comments that refer to the problem.
@muttley79 says:
@kininvie
How many people would read all the comments though? I would imagine a lot just read the articles.
The comments are the best bits.
🙂
Makes sense. Hopefully newbies won’t be too bewildered. But do you have any update on how long this will go on for?
How did the meeting with the ISP people go? Is the attack definitely aimed specifically at Wings? There was an article that suggested it was a blanket attack on WordPress blogs.
“How did the meeting with the ISP people go? Is the attack definitely aimed specifically at Wings? There was an article that suggested it was a blanket attack on WordPress blogs.”
It’s definitely aimed specifically at us. It’s separate to the wider DDoS on WP stuff recently, different kind of attack.
O/T
BBC radio 4 feedback just asked for “your views on the BBC coverage of the referendum”.
by writing, phoning or email. I’m pretty sure some of you have some of those views.
@Edward 20:14
I would not read too much into Peter Hitchens ravings. It sounds more like a rant at the EU to me. He, like most imperialists, blames foreigners for the downfall of his glorious English empire.
He is not on YES’s side, it sounds more like a warning shot across the bows of those EU loving, cheese eating, wet tories he so despises. Reading his article, you don’t need to read between any lines, he patronises those quaint Scottish things like Fife, peasant accents and the skirl of the pipes.
He is an imperial bombast, who is telling whoever reads his lines, that if Imperial England had been left alone to go it’s butchering ways, without interference from Johnny Foreigner, the Scots would forever be in check and none of this independence nonsense would have happened in the first place.
Page is refreshing now as usual but I’m signed in so will see if those details are retained.
Hudson – run a bypass
Yep I’m still signed in.
Hi folks, great news about the 64% Yes there. We’re really on a roll now 🙂
Scottish Skier, I saw your comment on another thread about the massive poll turnaround for support for currency union in England. It will be really interesting to see if it’s reflected in Scots rallying behind our government. Do you know when we’ll next get a Scottish poll on indy? Can’t wait to see what size of shift this last week has caused!
kininvie, agree about the update thing, but I’m sure WordPress are doing everything they can to rectify the problem. It is frustrating, but better some minor inconvenience than not being able to access Wings.
“kininvie, agree about the update thing, but I’m sure WordPress are doing everything they can to rectify the problem. It is frustrating, but better some minor inconvenience than not being able to access Wings.”
It’s nothing to do with WordPress. Hopefully our hosts should be able to make some progress tomorrow.
Meow
To be honest EU, currrency, economy, Tory/Labour bollocks right left & centre.
I dont care what they (Westminster) throw at us, I’m with the spurned, downtrodden, ripped off masses. I honestly can’t be scared out of this decision, Im voting YES no matter what occurs ’cause as Im happy in myself and my ain folk and trust Scots will get it at the 11th hour when it really matters.
Am I British or am I Scottish. Is that a real question for today – when all is said & done ?
Only one answer that puts Scotland and my ain folk first in all things, now always and forever.
No mattter what my voting patterns were before (Labour), in recent times I have woken up with a clearer vision of who stands up for and speaks on behalf of us and its no longer Labour.
Where Scotland is concerned the answer this Sep 2014 has to be YES, not just for selfish reasons of today, to avoid the nonsense of austerity, but for community and the aspirational child like voices beckon us from the future.
Let us grasp our destiny tight and not be tricked by the snake oil peddling visitors who visit us on only the rarest of occasions.
It’s mildly annoying, but it’s not really clipping our Wings so’s you’d notice. If someone really wants rid of you, what’s next?
Do you know when we’ll next get a Scottish poll on indy?
Nope. Although any poll released soon may have had fieldwork done before the Osballs intervention. In that sense we might not get an idea of effects for a few weeks yet on current polling frequencies.
TNS-BMRB is one to watch. It has a hell of a shy yes (which gives weirdly high DK). They’ve just been give a good reason not to be bashful…
The main page is not showing the new thread here.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Falafel, dammit.
Income from Crown Estates in Scotland must be a fairly easily identifiable sum, and currently it goes to the UK exchequer. If an iScotland wishes to retain a (single) member of the royal family as head of state, then the income from the crown estates raised in Scotland should rightfully go to the Scottish exchequer immediately after a Yes vote.
In return iScotland could keep 1 residence for any state visit – which would be payed for out of the crown estates income until a decision is reached about the head of state in iScotland. The remainder could be held in a sovereign fund.
What would be pageviews and BTL comment numbers be like for the past week under normal conditions?
You have to wonder – if someone is being paid to do this, how long can the mysterious funders afford to keep it up? Or do the DDOSers only get paid by results – if so, what constitutes ‘job done’?
If the aim was to stop fresh posts and comments, they’ve clearly failed.
So – whoever you are – get it right up ye’s.
I know it’s not representative of the real world, but a Celtic forum I’m on did a previous poll of the independence question. It was something like just over 80% YES.
Since then there has been lots of discussion about independence. Someone just put up another poll.
343 YES
29 NO
92% YES. Happy days!
@gerry parker
…or we could just nationalise the Crown Estate and have done with it…
What seems to be emerging is that Osborne got it wrong and has led Balls to give us an opening into the Labour vote. This, and the gradual trickle already running towards ‘Yes’, put us WITHIN STRIKING DISTANCE OF WINNING. Think about this – it is momentous !
Every single vote counts. Some contributors here are magnificent with news of doorstep and street conversations that move us on one by one by one. Those who want to pour out bile should think about the effect that it is having on undecideds when BT do it. Please, please stop it !
Be patient, push steady and hard at every opportunity, do everything you can to reach Labour voters – they can win back their party by voting ‘Yes’. We are changing history here not indulging our anger or trying to win a competition for slick (and not so slick) abuse.
‘FORWARD TOGETHER’.
We are going to win.
No one has gone from a Yes way of thinking to a No.
George Osborne tried to bully us …the Yes vote went up.
Manuel Barroso tried it today …the Yes vote will go up.
Scots don’t like bullying. In fact, they d utterly detest it to the point that it angers them. When someone say ‘You can’t’. We usually do.
My own view is, we use Sterling post Yes, and slowly move to a Scottish pound. As to Europe, well, if they don’t want us, so be it.
To Barroso and Rajoy; when you tell the fishing industries of Spain and Portugal that the vast majority of the North Sea is off limits to their fishing fleets …well, good luck with that.
Norway in my eyes is the way to go. We look after the peoples of Scotland first and foremost. The rest of the stuff will take care of itself.
We are going to win.
@ Morag, I got kicked off the Guardian CiF, it’s my problem I’ll deal with but don’t stop reading the Guardian or any broadsheet English paper. England’s just one more mid sized country and normal English people don’t mind.
@Major, – you’ll be spooking the horses.
The Scottish Crown Estate has nothing to do with the Royals. It is a State fund raised on the state’s right to unclaimed land, i.e. the state claims it. So it would be easily passed back to Scotland but Calman didn’t suggest that, I wonder if that was anything to do with granting oil licences?
I’m not sure, but I thought the crown estate was the first 12 miles from shore. This means for offshore wind, the key is the crown estate.
It’s just another part of the great obfuscation to hide Scotland’s wealth!
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can confirm or clarify?
Picked up somewhere an inspired little comment.
“When the effluent reaches the affluent money is no object”
Much as I would like to fully sympathise with the hard pressed residents across the south of England many of these in avarice have fully supported the continuous destruction of all our universal services and what was a unanimous sentiment in favour of these only a few decades ago.
They have supported a retreat from the concept of a proper progressive taxation system but expect the government to suddenly pull out all the funding stops when their comfortable complacency is interrupted.
I’m getting less accommodating as I get older. Every year that passes makes me more determined to escape from this the failed politics of this failed state.
@handclapping.
Thanks, looking at their website now.
Thanks Skier, I’ll be scouring the threads for your analysis when they come out, it always cheers me up 🙂
I think a bunch of recent comments just disappeared for me (not just logging in random word ones, and not mine, just other folks comments I saw a few minutes ago). Pesky DDOSers, I don’t understand cacheing etc. Any techies know if we can return fire? 😛
Ok, they’re back now, this leaving a comment to refresh thing does seem to work.
@Xaracen –
!!! Superb.
@BuckieBraes: Of course, it suits the No campaign to pursue a partisan approach, presenting the referendum as the SNP/Salmond versus everyone else, even though this is manifestly untrue.
I’m fed up with letting the No campaign use this in their favour. If they want to be partisan, then we just ask why Labour is happier to work with the Tories than the SNP – and ask whether they truly think the SNP are worse than the Tories.
Do you know what I do when people bring up “I’m not voting Yes because of Alex Salmond/Salmond is a bastard/Don’t trust Salmond”? I ask them why they say that. What is it about Salmond you don’t trust? What has Salmond said or done which you think makes him less worthy of trust than Cameron, Darling, Lamont, Sarwar, anyone else in the BT crowd? Given the choice between Cameron & Salmond, why are you going with the man who’s destroying the UK over the man who’s saving Scotland?
Usually they just mutter something about him being “smug” or the usual “I’ve always voted Labour.” Sometimes I’m pleasantly surprised when someone brings up Donald Trump, which is at least a reasonable position if you make a point of ignoring everything that happened after the golf course, and also that it’s a bit rich to criticize Salmond for cosying up to corporations as if this is something unknown to Labour. And sometimes they’ll bring up Brian Souter, whose donations to the party you can legitimately disagree with on ideological grounds – at which point I usually respond with Ian Taylor.
But whether you agree with the man or not, Salmond is BY FAR one of the Yes campaign’s most powerful assets. Treating Salmond as a liability gives undue credence to the BT campaign, when they know that Salmond would annihilate every one of their champions in a straight debate – probably at once. The only way they can combat Salmond is to avoid that straight debate however possible.
Believe me, I went through a period of playing down my admiration of Salmond. I’d even convinced myself that they had a point: maybe we’d be better off with someone else in charge. But then I realised that this is exactly what BT are counting on: to let the people of Scotland use their own best weapons against them. Treat the wealth of differences between the Yes campaigners from the SNP, Greens and SSP as “division” and “cracks in the united front.” Treat the desire to reclaim our history as “Braveheart sentimental nostalgia.” Treat the democratically elected First Minister as someone who’s a liability.
Aye, but naw. You guys have framed the debate long enough. Salmond’s on BBC, STV & Channel 4 being bombarded with hard questions while your heroes in the Coalition sit and watch. Labour is rarely questioned at all, let alone with anything remotely resembling the rigour accorded to Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney and others.
People should stop letting BT convince us to use Salmond against us. Instead of saying “aye, but you can vote for somebody else,” just ask them if they REALLY believe that Lamont would make a better FM than Salmond. If they can, well, there’s no helping them, is there?
Quinoa
Ginseng
Taranich, I tried that and the answer was “Who is Johann Lamont?” :O
@Taranaich –
Well put as ever.
What the Salmond-slaggers always avoid is the verifiable fact that the guy has never once lost the rag with the Paxmans, Warks, Naughties and Freis despite some appallingly rude treatment which would see many politicians either blowing their tops or doing a John Nott (was that his name?) and leaving the studio.
Whether these MSM slappers like it or not, Alex Salmond is the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland – despite their disgusting arrogance, he maintains a dignity which tests their professional credibility to destruction. His whole team, Nicola et al, have learned by example, and never rise to the bait.
Salmond’s approach has been noted, and copied, by reps right across the Yes movement (be they Ministers or street campaigners) because it’s so effective – can anyone think of a Yes rep who comes across as a hothead?
(Jim Sillars doesn’t count: he’s a malcontent – not the same thing.)
PS It was John Nott:
If there is word from the EU, it will be some sort of opinion from the EU parliamentarians, suitably gerrymandered by the Tories’ and Labour’s European Parliamentary partners.
It will not be a definitive legal opinion and will be as useful, as a ruling, as a chocolate kettle. That will not stop it being spun by the BT, MSM and BBC. I really don’t need to type the three acronyms as different entities. They are as one.
More incoming bullshit then. Germ Warfare suits on everyone and should be just called The Enemy.
What will it take to get through to Labour voters that they are not getting the representation they vote for?
The current SNP government do well in the polls as they come across as a decent bunch who have Scotland’s best interests in mind by their actions.
The founding tenets of the Labour party are admirable but never in my life could I decribe any parliamentary Labour group as a decent bunch.
We’re not too wee, we’re not too poor, but I despair at times that we will be proven to be too stupid.
On a upbeat note, I just spoke to my daughter and son-in-law and they are now coming right over towards a Yes vote. They have been pretty uninterested until now but Gideon’s arrogance and stupidity really angered them. My son-in-law’s parents will almost certainly be migration to YES also.
One at a time
“Spain are the culprits”
A bit unfair. rEspana attitude is perfectly understandable, even if it is indefensible. Bigger culprits are those who do not understand that understandability. Those who did not understand, that playing down Catalan and Basque aspirations until after Scottish independence was achieved was both the most sensible policy for Scotland and for them.
That Scotland’s special constitutional circumstance was the thin edge of a wedge they could and should have used.
@BTP –
Aye, one at a time…
In Glasgow yesterday, first time for a good few months, it was a wee bit disheartening not to see any evidence of Yes: no lapel badges, no wee stickers on lamp-posts or in the pub lavvies, no creative Banksy-type hieros on the final stretch into Glasgow Central…
Mind you, did get on the crack with a few folk whilst having a smoke outside various hostelries, and passed on the wee ‘Aye Right’ business cards. All were received gratefully, with obvious interest – no bad vibes from anyone.
Come on Glasgow Yessers – the world is watching, and we all know you’re there. Gonny make yersels seen, eh?
“What will it take to get through to Labour voters that they are not getting the representation they vote for?”
A referendum update of something like this perhaps?
TBF to John Nott he was the scapegoat for Thatcher’s decision, whether ill advised or malicious, to remove the naval ship from the Falkland’s which prompted the invasion.
I remember seeing him in another interview a few weeks before that where he was outspokenly against doing so.
He was well stitched up, IMV.
@Chic –
Is that your work?
In any case, it’s powerful.
I can’t be the only one here who is, albeit guiltily, avoiding contact with family acquaintances who are diehard Labour because, honestly, it’s becoming very embarrassing – that graphic sums it all up perfectly.
@Chic –
I didn’t know that.
Poor John Nott. He does come across a bit ‘wet’, but at least he had the balls to bail out, and the presence of mind to remove his mike. (Some don’t – oops!)
Day was a nasty, snidey – and, when it came to Thatcher, cowardly – piece of work. But he was huge in his time, and it begs the question: was he held up as a model for political journalists? Did Wark, Naughtie et al get ‘lectures’ about Sir Robin, and analyse these encounters?
If so, you really have to wonder how much they learned from such documentation – their stock plummets with every passing week.
Like many poster above I was initially baffled by the politics of Osborne’s intervention. I can just about understand the economics, seen from a London perspective, but the politics seemed weird. Less than a week after Cameron’s love-bomb, why come to Edinburgh to lob a hate-bomb at the Scots? Did Osborne really not foresee the backlash, which even the BBC has now recognised?
Osborne has a reputation (deserved or not) as a great political strategist. Did he really boob so badly? There is another possibility. One mark of a good strategist is the ability to keep several alternative plans in play at the same time, switching between them as circumstances demand (Salmond is an expert at this).
Osborne’s ploy makes a lot more sense if you see it, not as a move in Scottish politics aimed against the SNP and Yes campaign, but a move in English or rUK politics aimed against Labour and (to a lesser extent) UKIP. Osborne may or may not have damaged the Yes side but he sure as hell has shafted Labour.
Ever since the 1980s when Thatcher was running amok, laying waste the economy and civil society, the central question in Scottish politics has been: who can best protect Scotland from this ravening monster? Under Rifkind and Lang the Scottish Tories made some attempt at moderation. Under Forsyth they gave Thatcherism full rein, and paid the predictable price in 1997. The Lib Dems, as usual, footered on the sidelines.
So Scottish politics turned into a contest between Labour and the SNP over who could best protect Scotland. For a while in the 1990s and early 2000s Labour gained the advantage with devolution. In 2007 the SNP got their noses ahead and Labour reacted by joining the Tories and Lib Dems in the Calman process. This looked tactically astute when the minority SNP government was expected to collapse quickly, but as things developed it left Labour locked in a deathly embrace with the Coalition partners.
Now Osborne has attacked the Scots with the explicit backing of Ed Balls. Labour’s posture as defender of Scotland is punctured once and for all. Osborne may have scuppered the union but he has surely guaranteed, if by any chance the Scots vote No, that the SNP will win the 2015 Westminster general election. And from a Tory perspective, 40-50 SNP MPs is surely better than 50 Labour MPs, especially if they maintain their policy of not voting on English-only issues.
Could a Tory politician really be so cynical?
Well said, Taranaich and Ian, I so agree about Alex Salmond, Nichola, John et al. I’ve been very impressed with them in the last four years and when you compare them with the Westminster lot and with Lamont and Davidson, then the comparison is even more stark. I think we’re lucky to have them and so many of the leading figures in the Yes campaign, which bodes very well indeed for the future of an independent Scotland
Taranaich, when I tried that on a neighbour, I got an earful about how rude and unpleasant Salmond had been to the daughter of a friend of hers who was working as an intern for the SNP. I’ve heard he can be difficult to work for, so what could I say other than that we were talking about the future of Scotland, not whether one man occasionally lost his temper. (Not to mention Brown throwing phones at people.)
I tried it again in England, at a dinner party where an English guest was having a go. He said he despised Salmond because he did nothing but tell lies. I asked for an example of such a lie, and the reply was “he says North Sea oil belongs to Scotland.” You can tell this was a conversation going nowhere good.
You are of course right, it’s just that life sometimes throws curve-balls.
Osborne has a reputation (deserved or not) as a great political strategist.
Well that’s exactly it, isn’t it? Osborne’s reputation is that he’s a canny politician & strategist, but he’s NEVER actually showed any evidence for it. Witness the STV clip where he studiously ignored questions about what no currency union would mean for English businesses. When’s the last time you saw George Osborne defend his policies on Newsnight? When did he give anything resembling a nuanced response in any press releases that weren’t clearly vetted? Classic “tell, don’t show.”
As with so many politicians, the illusion of the Great Statesman is formulated to make it look like he’s in control, that he knows what he’s doing. The reality is he got where he was because of the genetic lottery, and he’s protected by an army of civil servants of corporate interests. Hence how so many clueless commentators just take what he says at face value, yet mercilessly berate Salmond, Sturgeon & Swinney at the exact same time.
Perhaps that is a sort of great political strategy in itself: to be considered a formidable strategist without actually doing any strategising at all.
@Morag: Taranaich, when I tried that on a neighbour, I got an earful about how rude and unpleasant Salmond had been to the daughter of a friend of hers who was working as an intern for the SNP. I’ve heard he can be difficult to work for, so what could I say other than that we were talking about the future of Scotland, not whether one man occasionally lost his temper. (Not to mention Brown throwing phones at people.)
Ah, that’s another one I’ve heard (actually I think it might’ve been yourself in a previous thread.) My response: Ian Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms have seen 10,000 people die within SIX MONTHS of losing their benefits, Michael Gove’s sold off the NHS to Tory benefactors to the tune of £1.5 billion, William Hague has covered up a massive paedophile ring in the highest echelons of Thatcher’s government, Osborne is pushing for an energy method which literally destroys the environment, Cameron has proken nearly every promise on his election manifesto… and you’re going to bleat about Salmond being “rude and unpleasant” to your precious daughter’s friend!?!
The biggest charge you can make against Salmond is that he’s “hard to work with.” The opposition are criminals who have murdered and destroyed. I don’t care how pleasant Cameron might be personally when he has the blood of thousands on his hands.
Taranaich, I totally agree. I was trying to deal with someone who was coming over with a very peculiar sort of identity issue, claiming that as a Borderer she was neither Scots nor English, and that Borderers moved easily on both sides. Very weird attitude.
Then she thought that an independent Scotland would tank, so she and her English husband would have to move south. Then she thought we should have our own currency. Then she said her daughter (born in England to an English father) was worried she wouldn’t be allowed to play tennis for Scotland.
It was an absolutely surreal conversation. She was coming at the issue from an angry perspective, and quite difficult to deal with. Maybe some day we can have a more considered talk about the whole thing.
re:
Robin Day
Not sure if this clip with Thatcher is ‘real’ or not, but interesting all the same:
Ian, I think it’s a comedy thing they did for Children in Need or something like that.
@Morag –
Yes, that’s where the footage has been extracted from.
But have good listen to it – it does appear to be genuine.
And we all know what happened next.
Oh, it’s really Thatcher and Day, no doubt about it. I think I remember it at the time. But it’s the same sort of act as Salmond being Rev I M Jolly.
Thatcher: ‘We’re not doing anything about the Belgrano?…We’re not doing anything about Harvey Proctor?’
Day: ‘No…the state of the nation..’
Does anyone remember watching Day’s final interview with her? It wasn’t the clip above, and, for some reason, it’s awfy awfy hard to find on Youtube…still trying mind…
No. Give us a clue!
Hi Ian,
This the one you’re looking for?
link to bbc.co.uk
Here it is – Sir Robin Day vs Thatcher.
She boots his baws at 22.50, ‘forgetting’ that he’s a Knight…thereafter it’s all downhill for Robin.
I remember watching this on the box, and it’s almost as depressing now as it was back then…
But just ‘almost’.
We can be finally rid of these Tory ****s in a few months.
@Gaavster –
The gremlins made us overlap!
Same wavelength mister, and same message, right?
Cheers aplenty.
Here’s a story from a fine Labour council this week. I think this kind of petty, maybe even vindictive, crap adequately sums up why I stopped voting for them:
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Totally O/T but,
There is a big brouhaha darn sarf about the totally inept response of Westminster and the English Admin over the flooding in the SW.
The Armed Forces clearly are not up to the job.
That bollox is the cause of neo-liberal cost over value and the fact that such a permanent response infrastructure wouldn’t be a juicy unit to be privatised.
We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland.’ — Margaret Thatcher, 1990.
“Here’s a story from a fine Labour council this week”
Surely if the council could not re home those people in a more appropriate home to suit their needs, it makes a nonsense of the bedroom tax, for gods sake they could have built them a brand new home with all the requirements for disabled access for little more that forty grand.
“The Armed Forces clearly are not up to the job.”
According to news reports the army are going to do a survey on flood defence requirements in 5 weeks which would have taken the environment agency 2 years, we shall see.
I had a discussion with a confirmed unionist on Saturday.
I say discussion, more that I listened to him rant on, sneering that “what will your currency be, the bawbee? Haw, haw, haw. What’ll Fat Salmond and the Bride of Chucky do now? What about your pension. Are you willing to gamble that?”
Repeat at nauseum.
It was like listening to the Daily Mail, contantly on send, never receive, full of hate and bile. Try as I might, it’s hard to discuss anything with people who are so consumed by project fears lies that they are closed off to any alternative view.
John King
By not up to it, I mean unprepared for such an emergency and without all the equipment that they would need?
Osborne is a one trick pony and is no great strategist, lest we forget how both he and Cameron disappeared for nearly 3 weeks at the start of the financial crisis without a peep being heard from both of them. His one and only trick is austerity.
I think many are over analyzing Osborne’s intervention and threats and are maybe not paying attention to the human aspect of this. The British prime minister publicly pleaded with Scotland and the Scots to stay and was basically humiliated on all fronts. This (I think) was revenge, payback, spite-call what you will.
The message we need to get across is that the referendum is not about loyalties. It is about Yes or NO, political and football loyalties will still be there after a yes.
@Johnny come lately
Osborne is a one trick pony, whilst Blair(ex PM) was a one prick Tony – please feel free to apply this to any other Tory/Lab/Lib politician.
O/T but some utter pish been spouted on The Scotsman website. I’ve never read them before and wont be reading them again. Are they being ironic when they call themselves ‘The Scotsman’?
link to scotsman.com
Five reasons cardboard boxes are better than Labour politicians:
(1) They’re useful
(2) The description of the contents on the outside is often correct
(3) They don’t behave badly when full
(4) If there were none at all you’d miss them
(5) They don’t commit acts of gross indecency in car parks
@Vronsky –
Great stuff.
Also, if Jackie Chan fell from a tall building and landed on a big pyramid of carefully positioned politicians, he might hurt himself.
@Ian
“Is that your work?”
Guilty. I know some MSP candidates used it for the election, but it was not an official SNP pub..
Actually to call Osborne a one trick pony is a slur on such marginally useful beasts.
He is a no trick donkey that aspires to being a one trick pony.
Financially illiterate, he has difficulty telling the difference between total debt and a structural deficit.
It is little wonder that the crooks and chancers that filled their boots to such startling effect during the run up to the great financial meltdown, and afterwards as they held equity tranches of CDO’s whilst shorting the laughably AAA rated super seniors a win-win even bigger scenario if ever there was one.
Had this man any financial savvy as soon as the suits started bleating for their billion plus bonus pots he would have told them that they had to take from the bottom of the shit buckets of MBSB’s CDO’S CDS’s etc. that were parked at the doors of the taxpayer.
As far as keeping the pound is concerned, my instincts tell me that apart from a short transitional interval setting up a Scottish currency is a no-brainer.
@Lindasback
That Peter Hitchen’s piece might make a nice soundbite but his reasoning is just a load of Europhobic conspiracy theory bollocks.
He may be right but it is for the wrong reasons.
Actually to call Osborne a one trick pony is a slur on such marginally useful beasts.
He is a no trick donkey that aspires to being a one trick pony.
Financially illiterate, he has difficulty telling the difference between total debt and a structural deficit.
It is little wonder that the crooks and chancers that filled their boots to such startling effect during the run up to the great financial meltdown, and afterwards as they held equity tranches of CDO’s whilst shorting the laughably AAA rated super seniors a win-win even bigger scenario if ever there was one, can run rings around the lawmakers we get lumbered with if this is the best example of financial wizard the Tories have.
Had this man any financial savvy as soon as the suits started bleating for their billion plus bonus pots he would have told them that they had to take from the bottom of the shit buckets of MBSA’s CDO’S CDS’s etc. that were parked at the doors of the taxpayer.
As far as keeping the pound is concerned, my instincts tell me that apart from a short transitional interval for obvious reasons, setting up a Scottish currency is a no-brainer.
The people of the only country in Europe that did not allow their banksters to be saved by taxpayers, the plucky little Icelanders are now doing a lot better than the rest of us with real growth in all respects. Ok so at first it was hard but now most of the people can see that it was worth the pain and they have the added pleasure of knowing that some of the crooked banksters are wearing a ball and chain.
sorry about the double post, still getting used to the format. I’m an old fogey that often struggles with technology, but I’m still sprightly enough to know that independence for Scotland is the best medicine for us all.
This is why the thought of Scotland leaving the UK raises the hackles of the mangy flea-ridden imperialists that permeate the UK establishment. Some of them, Tyne-siders for example, might even envy us that we now have the choice to go it alone.
We should vote for independence because it will be the making of us. A nation once again, free to make our own decisions and free to reinforce our values and build a decent tolerant society. One that values everyone regardless of background, religion or class. A nation that would bail out the citizenry and let the financiers sink or swim. A nation that expects the elites to endure moral hazard for their actions as pitilessly as the state enforces the same on benefits claimants.
The old guard in Edinburgh, the denizens of the so called goldfish bowl that would keep us shacked to the UK, need to be looking over their shoulders as well because their well remunerated and easy passage to the top might become a tad harder to sustain in the New Jerusalem we can build here
@Bugger (the panda)
My eldest emailed me saying she thought Salmond’s currency proposals were based on a skyhook. I replied by directing her to the relevant section of the Fiscal Working Group’s report. I followed that up by recommending Wings, Newsnet, Bella, BBC Scotlandshire and Business for Scotland. I also pointed out that the MSM are all biased and to view their utterances in that light and to look at the above for sins of omission.
I did not tell her what to think or argue her into submission. I just pointed her at the information.
I’ve not heard back, but I’m hoping that is because much reading and thinking is going on. Maybe if I can persuade the eldest she will help me work on her mother.