Playing by Madrid Rules
We’re not a Catalonian-politics website and we don’t even have an opinion on whether Catalonia should be independent, but sometimes it’s easier to understand the workings and failings of the media if you watch how it behaves on a subject you’re not directly and closely involved with. Last week was one of those weeks.
Below is a clip from yesterday’s edition of Sunday Politics Scotland. It features a man called José Rodriguez Mora, who was introduced to SPS viewers neutrally as simply an academic from Edinburgh University but was in fact instrumental in the creation of a stridently anti-independence Catalonian political party.
He was brought on to give voice to what has become the universal UK-media spin on events in Catalonia – that both sides are to blame, that the Catalan government was provocative and irresponsible to call an “illegal” referendum, and that the only way for the area to achieve independence is through the 1978 Spanish constitution, despite it expressly forbidding any such action and its cornerstone of existence (also known as the “Preliminary Title”) being “based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation”.
So in the striking absence of any useful information in the press, we thought we’d do a little digging and see how that might work.
The first point to note is that the Spanish constitution is – by design – very difficult to amend, placing a series of onerous obstacles in the way of any proposed change.
The largest is the requirement for a succession of supermajorities – variously 60% or 67% – in Spain’s two houses of Parliament. Catalan representatives alone have no chance of achieving such a vote, numbering just 47 of the 350 seats in the Congress of Deputies, very VERY broadly the Spanish equivalent of the House Of Commons.
The ruling party of Mariano Rajoy, the Partido Popular (PP) – implacably opposed to independence or any sort of referendum in Catalonia – currently runs a minority administration in the DoC, with just 38% of the seats. So in theory the Catalans, if they could get the support of every opposition party (some of whom also have ambitions of independence), could get fairly close-ish to a supermajority in the Congress.
However, they would then have to do the same in the upper house, the Senate, where the PP holds 56% of the seats and the combined opposition just 44%. That’s plainly impossible in any practical sense, and even if by some implausible miracle they were able to succeed then any amendment would still be subject to a general election, new 67% supermajorities in each of the two parliamentary houses following that election, and finally approval in a Spain-wide referendum, which it would undoubtedly lose.
So in effect, saying the Catalans could achieve independence through the constitution is like saying the SNP could win the same thing for Scotland by persuading the rest of the UK parliament to vote for it – it’s “perfectly possible” in a purely abstract theoretical sense, but could never happen in reality. The arithmetic will always prevent it.
The British and Scottish media, however, has made no attempt to explain any of this, and has colluded with the official Spanish government line at every turn. The most startling example is the way every UK news outlet has casually and repeatedly asserted as fact that the turnout for the October 1 referendum was 43%.
The intention of that, of course, is to suggest apathy and an inconclusive result, but it’s a remarkable empirical distortion of both the truth and the most basic principles of language. Hundreds of thousands of votes were seized by the Spanish police on the day, and the best guesses at the percentage of eligible voters who actually succeeded in casting their votes into a ballot box are around 57%.
Additionally, large numbers of people turned out to vote but were prevented from doing so by police closing polling stations and removing ballot papers and boxes before they could be used, both on the day and preceding days. It therefore seems an extremely conservative estimate to suggest that the REAL percentage turnout – that is, people who went out intending to vote – was at least in the 60s.
(We must presume that other would-be voters were deterred from even trying, purely out of entirely justified fear for their safety, but there’s no means of counting those.)
Of the votes which were able to be counted, over 92% were cast for independence. Statistically the percentage in the seized boxes would be the same, which would mean that even counting every single non-voter as a No, at least 51% of the entire eligible electorate voted for independence – a clear and unarguable mandate.
(Realistically, of course, turnout is never anything like 100% and the actual proportion of the votes cast that were for independence – which is how referendums are counted – would therefore have been significantly higher, and certainly beyond the “decisive” 55% achieved by the No campaign in Scotland’s indyref.)
For comparison, just 37% of the eligible UK electorate voted for Brexit, and 47% of the eligible Scottish electorate voted to remain in the UK. Among the Catalan ballots that weren’t seized and were properly counted, more than 38% of the electorate voted for independence, so even despite the Spanish government’s best attempts at stealing the votes and violently suppressing turnout, Catalan independence still has more of a mandate than the UK is leaving the EU on.
To witness even the best and most diligent of UK journalists not only rejecting these unarguable facts but openly mocking them has been a dismaying and alarming sight.
What is happening in Catalonia in 2017 is indisputably an affront to democracy. The result of a referendum which was conducted with impeccable dignity and propriety under incredible intimidation is discounted, but the people of Catalonia are permitted no legal recourse to achieve their aim.
Their democratically-elected government has been dissolved for no other crime than trying to discover the will of its people. Their media is being taken over by the state. Their politicians are being imprisoned under medieval treason laws. The chief of police has been fired. If these things happened in a Third World country it would rightly be regarded as a coup and the UK press would be baying for military intervention.
(Readers are, most obviously, invited to consider the UK’s reaction if Spain had sent in riot police to violently disrupt a referendum in Gibraltar, then declared the government “dissolved” and invaded despite the residents voting to stay in the UK.)
The core principles of the UN Charter on self-determination are being ignored by the international community. Countries whose own independence was achieved “illegally” and often with much bloodshed turn their backs on the heroically peaceful Catalans, while the international media parrots laughable and transparently false propaganda on behalf of the Spanish government.
(Ireland recognised Kosovo’s 2008 unilateral declaration of independence, which was proclaimed by its parliament without any referendum at all, in just 12 days.)
You cannot say that people who cast their votes but then had them stolen by riot police “didn’t turn out”. You can’t say that those who went to a polling station to vote only to find it smashed up and/or closed by the same riot police “boycotted” the referendum. You can’t say that a government given no lawful options for “properly finding out” what its citizens want is behaving irresponsibly by seeking the best, most peaceful and most democratic solution open to it.
At least, not unless you’re playing by Madrid Rules.
So this is the Catalonian Blair McDougal?
Odd eh. The weird symmetry with Scotland and England’s media .. hold on! Scotland doesn’t have any media!
So its clear, BBC misrepresenting facts (again) and the ‘unions’ so dearly and lovingly fascist, holding together – hands across the fascist divide.
Worse, our Scottish media .. again, not ours, putting effort into the cause for some other countries dictatorship/union.
Almost every opposition paid firebrand the BBC, ITV and SKY interview is introduced as an ‘expert’. The choice is that or ‘respected academic’.
If they don’t present it in that way they’re obliged to be truthful and tell us it’s a second-rate propagandist grabbed from hasty phone calls, or some such description.
If they speak anything close to truth they get demoted or fired for incompetence, thus they are compelled to beef up their own handiwork.
I’m off to Spain tomorrow for a week’s reconnoitring – have packed phrase book, helmet and bullet proof vest. Am looking forward to lining up for the ‘Aliens’ customs points.
If I don’t return, whereabouts unknown, feel free to argue among yourselves.
Adios amigos!
Well said, Rev. Like you I’ve no view on whether or not Catalonia should be independent. I have no dog in the fight, but I do have a view on the misrepresentation of the facts by much of the English language media. The restraint of the Catalan people in the face of police violence and political intimidation has been exemplary, while the determination of so many to attempt to vote in their “illegal” referendum has won my admiration.
In my opinion, the Spanish government has lost what moral authority it ever had, and (most) of our media should take a long hard look at themselves.
Girona 2 Real Madrid 1. A metaphor if ever there was one.
José Rodriguez Mora – CV
link to sevirodriguezmora.com
Alibi says:
30 October, 2017 at 11:08 am
Girona 2 Real Madrid 1. A metaphor if ever there was one.
_________
Were the two Girona goals o.g.’s by Rajoy, Alibi? 😀
Scotland aside, even the international observer community in Catalan to observe the vote, has said the Oct 1st vote is invalid due irregularities.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
As for Ireland’s PM Leo Varadkar, not recognising Catalonia, like most nations who are spouting the same mantra, that’s the government’s position and not necessarily the position of the countries citizens.
Long live Catalonia, I say.
No idea who Alex Thomson is but could anyone so wilfully stupid be relevant in any conversation about anything?
The re-writing of history is nothing new in regard to “Independence” movements.
As the Rev states – Madrid rules.
The club closes ranks and align with their club member as regard facts and ensure their home media follows the Orwellian increase in chocolate ration.
Democracy is fast becoming an illusion.
Presumably he won’t be there very much longer to make pronouncements about anything.
Surely the way that the Catalan situation is being reported is a perfect illustration of the totally corrupt UK media.
Instead of being allowed to form our own opinion on a topic by perusing reliable unbiased straight reporting of facts it is clear that we are being told what to believe which is really quite scary when one considers that this is what is being inflicted on us every day in particular as regards The Scottish Government and Scottish Independence in general.
Great report, another one! Why is it that absolutely nothing like this information can be read, watched, heard etc, in any main stream teamGB meeja?
And then we come to UKOK dark money. Holy fuck.
HandandShrimp says:
30 October, 2017 at 11:16 am
No idea who Alex Thomson is but could anyone so wilfully stupid be relevant in any conversation about anything?
____
Here you go – don’t you remember the Rangers story?
link to channel4.com
link to en.wikipedia.org
Here is a simple point.
If/when,the Catalan parties boycott the Madrid ordered elections in Catalonia, on December 21st, will the result be declared as invalid ?
Of course, the above depends on those parties even being allowed to stand in said election.
Or, more likely, will the usual double standards apply ?
(Mostly rhetorical question there).
“the international observer community in Catalan to observe the vote, has said the Oct 1st vote is invalid due irregularities.”
Obviously it’s pretty fucking “irregular” if voters are having to vote at random polling stations because riot police have smashed up the proper ones. That doesn’t mean it was crooked.
No surprises there. Whilst many of us will have a great deal of sympathy for Catalunya, observing how this is dealt with by the EU and member states may be very instructive for us. Although there are likely to be some significant differences, the bottom line is that the Eurocrats want to create a single state and electorate and will strongly oppose what they see as the “Balkanisation” of Europe. It makes it much harder for them to rule. The lack of criticism of Madrid speaks volumes (if that is not a contradiction).
excellent piece Stu
Neatly done Rev and yes, I’d say a few of those countries seeking to ignore the UN charter have somewhat short memories concerning their own history.
link to en.wikipedia.org
As I posted yesterday however, people and peoples can be friends, share empathy, morals, ideals and aspirations. Governments and geopolitical diplomacy in general? Not so much apparently. Political expediency, mutual benefit and personal expansion tend to be the order of the day.
Makes having those short memories that much easier to take I’d imagine. Governments rarely reflect their people. If they did, there’d maybe be a damn sight less strife in the world.
Aye that’s radio shortbread’s go to ‘independent expert from Edinburgh Uni’, on most days last week as it was all ‘kicking off’saying Catalonia very naughty no mandate etc etc.
José Rodriguez Mora. 🙂 Now we know more about him.
You kind of get the feeling that the worlds head has succumbed to its curiosity as to what it might find up its own arsehole that its taken the plunge and dived right in to explore and wonder.
Lately I have developed a real sense of dread due to world and domestic events that Ive never experienced before in my life.
The world has had some rocky times but Ive never felt this level of uneasiness about any of them before.
I feel things are accumulating towards something cataclysmic that nobody seems to want to try to prevent.
For me the world has become a whole lot scarier than it ever has been in my lifetime.
The irony is that the very methods they use to keep the cohesion of the European Union, will be exactly the same cause of its destruction. Rather than create unity (even though in smaller nation states), they are creating divisions on a bigger and more permanent scale.
Denying a peoples right, and indeed, expressed wish for self determination ,seldom has a happy outcome.
O/T but what on earth has Brewer done with his hair, as I’ve no longer watch any BBC Scotland grot, like 75% of Scots.
Is it the more mental a tory propagandist you become for aunty Beeb, the sillier your hairdo gets? aka, Andrew Neil’s barnett, colours by Loreal, all of them.
HandandShrimp: Alex Thomson’s chief correspondent for Channel 4 News, which is scarcely reassuring, is it?
For some reason he took a keen interest in the affairs of Rangers FC during its financial meltdown.
I’m always amazed how the issue of Scottish/Catalan independence turns people you think are quite sensible into drivel-spouting, anti-democratic hypocrites, Owen Jones being a good example.
He hasn’t really thought through the message of his own book on The Establishment.
A great summary of the constitutional situation, Rev, which, of course will never be aired on MSM.
So it’s fair to lock a nation into a state from which even a 100% vote for independence could never free them?
Must give the Yoons goose-bumps of a night-time.
Might is right. Just ask your average beeb gimp.
link to bbc.co.uk
[…] Wings Over Scotland Playing by Madrid Rules We’re not a Catalonian-politics website, and we don’t even have a view on whether […]
Looks like the people in Catalonia have no route to voice any opinion as the direction they wish to take, the Spanish Constitution effectively blocking by sheer weight of numbers the inability to effect change, they are effectively bound hand and foot for ever , hence their frustration and declaration of UDI .
This whole situation is in action closer to home, just operating under a different guise, the English parliament, again by weight of numbers blockis real change, and its called democracy, Aye right.
Waken up proud Union supporters, your being pissed on and you don’t even notice the smell .
Brilliant articles ever Rev.
Speaker of House abides with Spanish orders re dissolution of parliament. Looks to elections.
Liz castro says That’s fine – if Pro-indy parties allowed to stand they can re-assert their majority but in Basque elections they weren’t and if that happens in Catalonia, all bets are off.
Human chain around Gov building in Girona to protect Democracy.
Liz Castro just posted link to the Rev’s article above on her twitter feed.
Still no news on Puigdemont. His deputy, the Finance minister, Junqueras has not been
seen at the ministry dept. this morning. Civil servants been dismissed with no back pay, replaced with Spanish officials.
Madrid has accused the Catalan leaders of Sedition, Rebellion and Corruption – so for upholding Democracy they face upwards of 33 years in jail….
Come on Europe where is your voice?
So many things piled on top of one another, and many of them aren’t even specific to the case of Catalonia.
Presenting highly partisan people as impartial experts is everywhere on every issue.
A lazy media which regurgitates press releases or plagiarises someone else, never double checking facts.
Fake news, propaganda, hidden agendas, not so hidden agendas, which gives us a media which totally fails to inform and educate. Where’s the news and balanced debate a democracy needs?
Democracy is all well and good …. as long as voters chose the establishment line, it so often seems.
Politicians who blatantly lie and make promises anyone at all savvy sees through, but the gullible get taken for a ride.
You just have to hope decency, fairness, and people power can muddle through to win.
Watch and weep for this is our future.
We shall get the same treatment when Holyrood is forced to call a referendum with no 2nd Edinburgh Agreement, it will be a London Disagreement next time around.
The world will watch on as we face same obstacles as Catalonia and country after country will turn their back on any request for recognition.
We fucked it, fucked it right up.
@Mike
Stead on there. Your disquiet is almost certainly due to the Information Age feeding you or making it easy to find nasty details you would have been screened from by the MSM back before the explosion of info on the interwebnets.
More and more places are democratic than used to be the case. In my lifetime I’ve seen the end of Franco, of Papa Doc Duvalia in Haiti, of all the military dictators in Latin America. There used to be military juntas in Chile, Argentina, Bolivia and Brazil.
The forces of reaction will always try and hit back, they are trying against Morales in Bolivia. The rich lowland farmers are constantly trying to undermine the government extending power, human rights and equality to the poor in the Highlands. Usually the poor are Amerindians and the rich are Hispanics.
So there will always be setbacks but stuff has gotten an enormous amount better overall in my 51 years on this planet. My mother used to call me her little Indian boy because my ribs always showed. I was a skinny kid with high metabolism and very active and she could never fed me up. Back then India was famine central. Now food security in India is very good. Ethiopia has made great strides in that direction too.
Shit will always happen, the forces of reaction will get elected and push back. But hey, NZ got ride of the Tory National party govt. A Labour dominated coalition is in power and things are getting better (NZ Labour should not be confused with SLAB or UK Labour). We have a long term, stable SNP govt in Scotland. I still sometimes have to pinch myself. Through the vast majority of my life the SNP have been a fringe party, now they are becoming the Establishment. The recent local govt elections will change things by getting rid of Glasgow labour for one thing.
Things are getting better, fight against the reactionaries, resist them. But don’t mistake the arc of progress. Trump was a reaction, he won’t last. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.
Interesting to see the same dialogue wheeled out for this. Yesterdays take on the pro Spain demonstration was ‘The Silent Majority’.
Jeeze. Not that again.
The EU logic bubble.
Uppermost in the minds of most EU leaders right now is the very cohesion of the EU itself, especially following Brexit.
In that regard, if they take the Catalan’s side then there is a very real risk that rSpain will leave the EU.
That is the main panic response.
Therefore they are hoping, probably with little in the way of expectation I suspect, that if they ignore the problem, it will go away.
That is, they are hoping that the Catalans will, at least for the most part, go back in their box and accept things as they are.
That is very unlikely to happen, but remains the only straw on the maelstrom.
It is far more likely that Madrid will continue to use repressive measures. Removing powers from the Catalan government, imprisoning elected representatives, taking over and controlling the media, preventing self expression in referendums and of course, possibly much worse (marshall law, curfews etc.)
In that eventuality the EU will be forced to take action because of the infringements of EU law that entails, even if the politicians do not want to. Catalans are EU citizens and therefore entitled to the full protections EU law gives them.
Punitive measures must and will be carried out progressively from fines all the way up to removing Spain’s voting rights on EU matters.
At that point, if Spain continues with its repression but does not leave the EU of its own volition, I believe that eventually an extraordinary summit of the rEU heads will gather to remove Spain’s membership. (There is no mechanism in place for removal within the statutory framework).
But right now, they will wait until that little straw sinks without trace.
The clock is ticking very rapidly for the Madrid government to yet do the right thing.
Otherwise, Spain is out of the EU one way or the other.
Great piece Rev!
I’m very disappointed with France24, Euronews, Aljazeera who are all following Madrid mantra. This is the the fact that there is NO news channel in favour of the Catalans having their voices heard.
I saw on twitter from Liz Castro, who I follow, that 1578 extra coaches over an average Sunday, drove through Catalan road tolls yesterday from outside Catalonia.
That’s 87k people (estimating 55 per coach)
Did they get ideas from the ScotIndy Referendum in 2014, where they bused up Unionists to Scotland?
A few people on here asserting the situation in Spain is totally different from ours,
Oh really how does that pan out then ? , the similarities are there for all to see, it’s that obvious it’s laughable to try and interpret it any other way.
In short get a f/n Grip and use yer brain for once .
I think this provides effective proof that Scotland and Catalonia are merely fronts in what is effectively a World War between the self proclaimed power elites and the ordinary people, suffering to various degrees everywhere because of this notional elites’ sense of entitlement and its inhuman Neoliberal/Fascist ideolgy.
Catalonia D’hondt system. Open to manipulation. Not FPTP like Westminster,
It is reported Puigdemont needed 90 votes. In Catalonian Parliament. Got 72 votes.
They do not have the majority vote. The numbers do not add up. Puigdemont knew that and still went ahead.
2.3Million out of 5.3Million electorate. 30/43% turnout. 700,000 do not have a vote. EU citizens/’foreigners’? No taxation without representation. 7.5Million pop. 1.5Million under 18 years. 6Million left.
The EU/Spain will protect the € – Eurozone. To many people would be adversely affected. Most Catalonian/Spanish politicans are corrupt. Criminals. The Spanish/Catalonians despise them. Low turnout? The majority support putting them in jail.
The same as Brexit 1/3+. 17Million out of 45Million electorate. 62.5Million pop. Being push through without support. The Tories are ignorant incompetents.
Stu I agree with your research and comments. It all comes down to biased UK media somehow working together to trot out the same unbalanced crap so that we feel support for Madrid. If I was cynical I would say this relates to a possible Brexit compromise with Spain on Gibralter. If I am correct then this would indicate WM control of our news.
Excellent article, have shared.
I guess Spain can only really carry out their coup, because they have the blessing of the rWorld and the EU. No doubt they are being curtailed only slightly in that they haven’t gone in all guns blazing which is no doubt what they would prefer, rather than, ‘clear your desks’.
The UK state and other dodgy regimes’ controlled propaganda has a definite purpose. It’s a, don’t try this at home plebs, or else! Especially you at the back, Scotland!
It’s a sad day when the oppression of a people is legitimised by the rules that the oppressors made up and condoned by pretty much all other so called democracies.
It has happened throughout history, but now we get to see it as it is happening, via the internet.
People have treated each other appallingly for eons, that it still happens in the 21st century is depressing.
Has Spain said why they won’t talk, and have they said why they want Catalonia to stay shackled to Spain? No, their government are parasitic bullies.
What must the people of Catalonia be feeling right now. Like captives no doubt.
“[Mora] was instrumental in the creation of a stridently anti-independence Catalonian political party”
Presenting partisan “pundits” and “journalists” to the public without disclosing their known political affiliations is very deceitful and, irrefutably, not “impartial”.
Inform Scotland should submit several such cases to OFCOM when they’re “testing out the new Ofcom process”.
Muscleguy says
You are of course correct. The truth is now much easier to find. Someone somewhere has reported it. The problem with the interweb is there is the lies too but the discerning intelligent person can find the truth.
Consider this. The glorious British Empire’s many transgressions went completely unreported for a couple of centuries. Abuse, torture, imprisionment without trial, all over the Empire. And God help any non white group who sought self determination. With only the msm, the UK population had no idea what was being done.
The industrialisation of the UK was achieved at the de-industrialisation of India. A source of raw materials and a ready market for goods, but no home industry. A corrupt criminal enterprise which went totally unchallenged. The reality was simply hidden.
David, if only we were all as switched on as you, we would not be in this mess we are now.
In short get a f/n Grip and use yer brain for once .
There is a lot to compare and contrast but we don’t know what UK gov would do, if Scotland holds indyref2 without Edinburgh agreement 2.
Teresa’s clearly not going to give UK gov permission any time soon. Maybe who ever takes her job, current chancellor Hammond or even BJ, will perhaps consider allowing Scots ref2, in 5 years time, maybe.
If Holyrood does hold ref2 without agreement/permission from our chums in England, no matter what the result of Scots ref2, its more than likely that UK gov direct rule, like Northern Ireland will be triggered, even on UKOK national security basis, Trident in Argyll at risk etc.
link to en.wikipedia.org
“In the United Kingdom, direct Westminster rule over Northern Ireland, which is also theoretically applicable to Scotland and Wales, may be referred to as suspension of devolution (see Devolution in the United Kingdom).”
Its likely that UK gov would not tell anyone in Holyrood to clear their desks and go home, like the Spanish are, and replacing them with a crew from Westminster, is it?
Viceroy Fluffie Mundell, then becomes the ruler of the separatists in the UK Scotland region, as the beeb gimp network goes in to UKOK overdrive…
Fairly straightforward.
The BBC (et al) are pushing the illusion there is a legal means and justifying Spain’s approach to the illegal UDI.
They hope to cow the soft YES / No vote in Scotland into keeping the Status Quo and rejecting any attempt at Indyref 2 other than one that is given permission by Westminster _ permission that will not be forthcoming.
They are trying to tie the hands of the SNP with the tacit threat of justified State violence should an unsanctioned Indeyref2 go ahead.
And knowing the numbers that bottled it the first time I won’t be surprised when it works
I am older enough to remember Hungary 1956 and the desperate pleas from their government for outside help. History repeating itself
HandandShrimp says:
30 October, 2017 at 11:16 am
No idea who Alex Thomson is but could anyone so wilfully stupid be relevant in any conversation about anything?
…………………
Possibly the reporter for CH4 News?
Re;David Smith@12.19
Scarily an apt observation.
We were watching a new series called ‘Timeless’ on Netflix recently. The whole thing is about a secret, long standing organisation who control all aspects of life, particularly in their own interests, naturally.
We thought about that Bilderberg(?) organisation, with the elites at the controls, while everyone else gets on with normal life, though is it normal?
In ‘Timeless’ the elite running the show are vicious in how they go about controlling the masses, but you never know quite who is on which side, which makes it even more sinister. Only one series made so far, hope they make more.
Peace to Catalonia.
Thanks for that Stuart. Someone’s got to tell us the truth.
I am surprised that people expected the u.n. to do anything as they have been standing by for years and watching the Palestinians being murdered and they land being stolen and by doing and saying nothing they are condoning it they are a complete farce they are only another mirage in this illusion of democracy
Wonder what the EU’s position on Catalan would be if Spain had decided on SPEXIT?
I am fast going off the EU but am, nevertheless, a pragmatist–it’s still the biggest trading block in the world and we need to have access to it. Liking the sound of EFTA more and more.
Good factual article Rev, as per usual.
Looks very like the Catalans have no way to beat this anti democracy policy from Spain, I assume with help from their counter party in the UK, the Tories.
Certainly, the UK press are holding the Westminster line, and are pushing a fascist agenda on to Catalonia.
Utter gutter moves and the sooner the dead wood press is gone from our streets the better. Then the tv, the airways, and all Westminster compliant institutions.
Well, I can dream for the day, but will only become real if we become Independent. Even then we will have things to deal with in the land of corrupt politics rule.
Good luck Catalonia I worry for you.
Must add Ireland has not covered itself in glory either.
Robert Graham 12.18
You Wrote “A few people on here asserting the situation in Spain is totally different from ours,
Oh really how does that pan out then ? , the similarities are there for all to see, it’s that obvious it’s laughable to try and interpret it any other way.”
So let me try to show you why the situation is completely different. Imagine a situation where the main Spanish Parliament held a vote of all MPs in the full national parliament, based upon the proposition that there should be a referendum in Catalonia. Imagine that the MPs representing the whole of Spain voted for Catalonia to have a referendum on Independence. Imagine that the majority of voters in Catalonia then voted against Independence in that referendum.
… then you would have a similar situation in Spain to that which occurred in the UK. Please feel free to point out where you feel I have misrepresented the situation.
In the West governments call it the rule of law when it’s something they want, when referring to other parts of the world behaving in the same way the West calls it abuse of power and condemn it depending on what they want to get out of it
Watch for the imposition of direct rule on Norn Ireland because they have “no choice” then watch for the squeezing till the pips burst of the Republic of Irelands trade and movement then tell me Brexit is all about the EU deal or no deal
In terms of us up here in, what’s the name of our country/region again? *Now is not the time* was another way of saying we’ll deal with you lot later
The big will always bully the small, outsmarting them no longer works when the big gang up together to get their way
because the big gang is more democratic and they’ll even kill you to point that out to you
But they’ll do it legally
Here’s and expert our glorious media, and the Spanish government, should be talking to:
link to ohchr.org
Agree that Alex Thomson’s remark really is a gamechanger in judging the guy as a journalist.
Note though that someone on the Alex Thomson twitter thread from above says that the turnout figure is based on them counting voters IN TO the polling stations –
and therefore the turnout figure is accurate despite the removal of ballot boxes.
Anybody any idea whether this is what was happening?
And yes I am aware that even on this basis those prevented from going to a polling station would not be part of the turnout figure.
On Sky news today, the elected Catalan politicians are referred to as ‘the ring leaders’.
Definition of ‘ring leader’: – a person who leads others against the law or authority.
Synonyms of ‘ring leader’ are: ‘trouble-makers’, ‘agitators’, ‘outlaws’ and ‘inciters’.
The EU is appeasing Spain at all costs. Don’t rock the boat. Surely Europe was taught in 1939 that turning a blind eye to thug rule, was not a long term option? Seems not!
UK media is blatantly misrepresenting the duly elected politicians of Catalan and completely undermining Catalan’s legitimacy to exist.
Just how far are our MSM & Govt prepared to accept this distorted reality? We shall see in the weeks and years ahead. Maybe only when bodies start to pile up in the streets will they stop saying that 2 = 2 = 5. Welcome to Room 101, UK style.
NB Westminster will be seeing with interest just how complicit the UK media is with the truth during Catalan Crisis which does not bode well for Westminster & the UK media’s combined Project Fear2 when Indyref 2 begins for certain altho to be fair, BBC Scotland & Scots papers have never left off Project Fear since 19 September 2017.
Addendum: see above @12.59 last line should read of course 19 September 2014. Apologies.
@Legerwood
He also was educated at University College Oxford according to Wiki but no mention of degree if any.
The Wiki link to “Biodata at Channel 4 website” gives “Page not found”
I assume the Establishment don’t want us to know too much.
He is in my opinion a shill.
I salute the Indefatigability of the Presenters/Reporters & all Unions & membership of same, at Bbc Pravda sound for their dedication in working hard on their future demise.
VISCA CATALUNYA .
Timely posting Rev (shared ) ..
Capn andy 12.10pm. Aye,a ‘silent majority’ that were more likely ‘bussed in.
mike cassidy says:
30 October, 2017 at 12:56 pm
Agree that Alex Thomson’s remark really is a gamechanger in judging the guy as a journalist.
He’s an upper middle class Englishman. Its not like they’re famed for their radical stuff is it?
Upper middle class England and Scotland, is probably one of the most reactionary classes in the West, matched only in and by the USA. USA upper middle class votes Orange Hitler, here its whoever it is leading the tory clown show. Same class would even vote for PM Colonal Ruth.
It wasnt always like this in teamGB but tory media dudes like Thomson are just one of the Thatcherite generation greatest legacies. They’ve all grown fat and tory by osmosis, fat on big salaries with very tasty expenses, the two tier lands of the USA and the UK.
And given that Thomson’s defence is that the Catalan Government gave out the 43% figure –
Does anyone know why the Catalan Government declined to include in the turnout figure the votes that they pointed out were removed?
Bit of an own goal surely.
Or were they naively expecting the world’s MSM to do the moral arithmetic for them?
”Below is a clip from yesterday’s edition of Sunday Politics Scotland. It features a man called José Rodriguez Mora, who was introduced to viewers neutrally as simply an academic from Edinburgh University but was in fact instrumental in the creation of a stridently anti-independence Catalonian political party.”
Great piece of work as per usual Stu. Thanks for that. As to the BBC introducing a ‘neutral’ voice, well we experienced that constantly via the media too in the run up to our Referendum. They are absolute masters of the art of spreading propaganda. Thank God we’ve got people like you attempting to redress the situation on a regular basis.
As to the Catalonians well I reckon they can forget about Madrid, go right over their head and take their case to the International Courts, as expressed by some Catalonian experts recently.
As for Mr Mora I don’t see him supporting us next year, lol. Do you?
I also see that some on here are comparing our situation with the Catalonians. Nothing could be further from the truth for a number of reasons. WGD as per usual brings some reality to the situation.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
‘Reporting’ the news on the Today programme this morning, Nick Robinson:
‘we’ll wait to see if ‘the Region’s’ leader, Puigdemont turns up for ‘his work’ this morning.’
This is just overtly derogatory. There’s really no longer even any pretence.
This state of affair is what happens when states ignore their external obligations to assist self-determination, in order to supress internal demands for self-determination.
“Fascists!” – Neil Wheedon Watkins Pye
link to sam.gov.tr
THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION IN INTERNATIONAL LAW
Scrutinizing the colonial aspect of the right to self-determination
link to gupea.ub.gu.se
link to corteidh.or.cr
At least Madrid has shown more honesty towards Catalonia, than London did to Scotland.
London is underhand and devious. Madrid is in you face, quite literally in terms of brutality.
Our 2014 referendum was never going to be fair and above board. I first heard about Cameron’s DevoMax plans six months before the vote. I confess my initial reaction was that perhaps that is a reasonable compromise if it’s going to be close. However, the closer we got to the vote the more the lies and deceit. It became obvious to me that DevoMax offers would be made falsely.
And the rest is history. Our referendum was sabotaged.
London and Madrid, quite different approaches, same indecisive outcomes. IMO the final outcome will be failure by both, and self determination for Scotland’s and Catalonia.
BREAKING: Catalan president and some members of his government will hold a press conference from Belgium this afternoon; sources.
link to twitter.com
O/T
And for those who were duped in 2014, in particular our pensioners, don’t let them dupe you next time round. Make an effort to find out how wealthy Scotland actually is. Don’t let them brainwash you with their propaganda.
‘Treading a Scottish Path.’
… ”Remember all that about voting No in 2014 because you were worried about your pension? A study out this weekend showed that UK pensions are amongst the worst in the developed world. Only Hong Kong and Taiwan have worse pension provision than the UK, and those are societies in which there is a far more ingrained culture of younger generations having a social obligation to care for their older relatives.
People in the UK are going to have to save far more of their income than they currently are in order to stave off penury in old age, but saving is becoming ever harder as wages stagnate for the many while ballooning for the rich and low paid gig jobs spread across the face of the economy like a bad outbreak of plukes.
Meanwhile the state retirement age in the UK is creeping up, and today’s young Scots could face having to work until their 70s before qualifying for a state pension. And that’s in a country where there are communities where the average life expectancy for men is 65 or lower. Vote to be British, vote to work for a pittance until you drop.”..
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Sky news rattling their gum’s Puigdemont being offered asylum by Brussels ( Brain Rix writing scripts ) lol .
Their pejorative use of the term “separatists” is now also omnipresent. I’ve lost count of its use over the weekend alone.
¡Qué apestoso!
I see the media have decided to use the phrase ‘sacked leader’ for Catalonian President. I thought an elected leader was deposed as sacked would infer he is an employee rather than the head of the parliament.
@ Nana says at 1:23 pm … ”BREAKING: Catalan president and some members of his government will hold a press conference from Belgium this afternoon; sources.”
link to twitter.com
Thanks for that Nana. No doubt the Guardia Civil black shirts, or rather green, will be miffed that they didn’t get the opportunity to haul them off to a Madrid jail today. The Media will be miffed too. All hanging around for nothing, ha, ha, ha!
BREAKING: Catalan president and some members of his government will hold a press conference from Belgium this afternoon.
Eckle Fechan at 1:25pm
“Their pejorative use of the term “separatists” is now also omnipresent.”
You never hear the media referring to the Spanish government and their supporters as “imperialists”, which is what they are.
The Irish government’s response -unquestioningly parroted by RTE – is shameful, and doesn’t represent the feelings of the Irish people. Realistically, I didn’t expect Varadkar to openly clash with the Spanish government over Catalonia, but he could have made some implicit moves towards sympathy with the Catalans, calls for dialogue and whatever other diplomatic speak governments use to tell each other off in public.
To add to Leo Vardkar’s shame, he’s half Irish and half Indian. You would think both sides of his family history would teach him to be a bit less tone deaf towards independence movements.
O/T
‘Scientific evidence that Scots tend to be different from the other groups in rUK?’
‘‘Good.Co’s regional profile of Scotland tells us that if Scotland were a person, s/he would best match the Advocate personality type: fair-minded, plain-speaking, just, stoic, and perceptive.”
I wonder if scientific evidence would show that the Catalonians are different, say, from the Spainish in general?
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Ooops ‘Spanish.’
I think the catalan gov in exile will have to be very careful that madrids black ops, dont arrange “accidents” for them.
Contributors above point out the highly selective way in which our supine media use the intentionally pejorative term of “separatists” to define Catalonian independistas and other identified “disreputable” members of the body politic.
Strange then, is it not, that the same term is not applied to the Brexiteers?….Just asking.
The British nationalist media, especially the bbc, will do everything it can [spinning and lying] to do down the independence movement in Catalonia in the same way it does to the independence movement in Scotland.
A number of posters have expressed disappointment in the stance of Ireland not supporting Catalonia.
Last time Catalonia declared independence Ireland was fairly supportive of Franco and the Nationalists.
“The Irish Catholic primate Cardinal MacRory was approached in early August 1936 by the Spanish nationalist Count Ramírez de Arellano … for help for the Nationalist rebels. …. Support for Irish involvement was based primarily on the Catholic ethos of most Irish people … Many Irish Independent newspaper editorials endorsed the idea … The Catholic Church was naturally on his side. Many local government County Councils passed resolutions in support … “
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Other left wing individuals fought for the Spanish Republic. They were treated as pariahs on their return.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
joannie says:
30 October, 2017 at 1:40 pm
The Irish government’s response -unquestioningly parroted by RTE – is shameful, and doesn’t represent the feelings of the Irish people
Look at how they reacted to the EU actually taxing Apple
link to irishtimes.com
Looks like President Puigdemont will govern in exile from Belgium whilst Rajoy subjugates and oppresses the citizens of independent Catalonia using baton-wielding thugs.
It doesn’t get any more embarrassing than that for Junker. He must be spitting feathers!
Thanks folks, hopefully not the same Alex Thomson otherwise I can only assume he was caught at inopportune moment (ie off his tits).
Further no my post about Ireland. The covert assistance of the UK to the Nationalist rebels is also rather interesting.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Again individuals supported the Republic
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Eckle Fechan says:
30 October, 2017 at 1:25 pm
Their pejorative use of the term “separatists” is now also omnipresent. I’ve lost count of its use over the weekend alone.
¡Qué apestoso!
Mentioned that, too – funny how the supposedly “free” press manages to speak on cue with one, UK imperial voice on the subject of self determination.
I keep imagining the outrage if Putin had suppressed a democratic vote somewhere in the Russian Federation with the brute force employed by Rajoy.
Petra 1.41pm If scotland were a person,they would be,fair minded,stoic,plain speaking,perceptive. Yeah i never seen ‘Intelligent’ in there either.
Aye weel, at the risk o repeatin masel and bein reactionary ?
How dae ye enforce yer will wi nae hauners? Lord help me I’ll even mention sovereignty.
With that out of the way; As is evident, there is and was no option for Catalunya. If the Law says you can’t do it, it’s unlawful, unless another Law supercedes it. But of course it doesn’t. Being repetitive – it needs a Law to be enforced. Spain is enforcing, no-one else is enforcing an alternative.
I believe Catalunya already went down the UN route in the 50’s under Franco for assistance and received short shrift then (experts will correct me) What could the UN do now? Well, it dragged its heels letting Spain in, and then fudged the “resolutions” a bit to let them join later. Ostensibly as a bullwark against communism, but Catalunya was on nodding terms with communism, so perhaps the UN isn’t really that sold on Catalunya after all..
All laws are malleable.
So, what’s their best shot at resolving the issue?
The only thing the UN can do is to say ‘resolve it by doing “X” or you’re out of the UN’ or there will be sanctions (The EU similarly) That is where power and not Law comes into it.
If you don’t do as we say, there will be consequences. Political, economic, militarily – whatever you fancy.
So, I’m tentatively suggesting, this issue is one where generally it’s perceived as “that’s not really fair” Spain’s position is “Meh, what can you do?” That attitude of Spain comes from power.
What power?
Surely Spain itself cannot stand up to the rest of Europe & the UN? Well, if one extrapolates from the votes on Spain’s exclusion/ accession from & to the UN, I think pretty much of South America supports Spain. Possibly a fair few EU member states do also.
Power politics. Not legal politics.
Finally how is this relevant to Scotland?
Well, primarily, it revolves around our “Legal & Sovereign” right to determine our future; that our decision must be respected and upheld. It would go to court if it didn’t and we’d win, the world would recognise and validate us etc.
No, it definitely is not a given.
Which court would we thrash this out in? Well, if going by the book that would be the Supreme Court, which is a UK institution. The Parliament of which is Sovereign in these matters, with one odd exception; the Parliament “should” abide by statute EU laws and various other treaties which bind it, but the Supreme court does not have to. It only has to take them into consideration when reaching a verdict.
Naturally, with primary Sovereignty, the UK Parliament need not abide by eg; UN/EU statute laws, treaties etc. Or even a verdict of the Supreme Court. Frequently hasn’t,frequently disregards them. Especially if they are ‘treaties’ and not incorporated into Statute Law’ – which is the closest the UK has to a written constitution. It’s not in the power of our Supreme Court to overturn our Parliament in the manner of the USA either.
Brexit removes the requirement for the Supreme Court to take any of the ‘EU statute laws’ into consideration, or at all. At least until they are incorporated into UK statute law.
When (if) they become incorporated, they become very, very malleable again.
Let’s face it even Holyrood, like the Catalonian parliament, could be dissolved. Smith couldn’t get it locked solid because A UK Parliament can’t bind a subsequent one. Great trick that. He said so himself. He could think of no way (short of Independence) to ensure the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament. Even though it was the de-facto & de-jure will of the Scottish people. Now that would make it a Sovereign will.
The Sovereign will of the Scottish people and ‘law’ has already been tested. There was no way to incorporate that ‘Sovereignty into a perpetually binding statute on UK governments.
So, there is no cast iron “Scotland has sovereign right and law and settled will and mandates vested in…yada yada – we are now independent everyone agrees, so there – Dixi !” However, the famous ‘plague of boils may well infest any UK government which goes down the route of denying it. But they would have to fear the consequences. Which means they fear a power.
So the questions which intrigue me the most are : “What is the nature of this power they would fear? What would the consequences be for the UK?”
I await a kicking on anything I have suggested is factual, in regards the way the UK parliament & law etc. operates and on my tentative history, if it is demonstrably flawed or incorrect. Rightly so.
The rest is an opinion piece and should merely be agreed or disagreed with.
There were a couple of questions at the end.
@galamcennaleth – you raise a good point about the Spanish Civil War there. At that time Irish political sympathies were split along Republican vs Free Stater lines – with the Sinn Féiners and Fianna Fáil being sympathetic to the Spanish Republicans, and the Cuman na Gaelers being sympathetic to Franco and his crowd. Leo Varadkar is, of course, a Fine Gaeler and therefore one of the political heirs of Cuman na Gael, so if you look at it that way, its no surprise at all that he’s again sided with the most reactionary forces in Spain.
Excellent research and presentation!
Looking at blogs bbc, guardian and others, it’s alarming!
I’ve had a life long opinion that the average English person has a sense of ‘Fair Play’. What I am seeing on these blogs is a disregard for democracy and an attitude of no surrender. I do questioned if those who are on the blogs are representative, but I do see a definite swing to the right.
We will not give up Scotland, Falklands or Gibraltar, etc. And the commonly seen ‘we gave them a vote’. They then contradict themselves by citing Spain’s right to crush Catalans supporting self determination. This then morphs into why isn’t the EU coming to aid the Catalans!
So many mixed messages but the underlying factors are intolerance and inability to see right from wrong!
If the uk did not have its Scottish and Irish problems and brexit had not happened, I wonder if opinions on these blogs from south of the border would be different?
But we are where we are, it’s alarming to think we may have to continue in a union where the right are so warped and on the rise!
I see that Rajoy has chosen Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, Deputy Prime Minister of Spain and Minister of the Presidency, to become Madrid’s enforcer in Catalonia. Sent in to oversee the day-to-day running of Catalonia’s affairs.
She’s one tough cookie but she’s got a hard job ahead of her to say the least. She / they won’t win in the end either. It may take 3/4 years but the Catalonians will get there.
link to en.wikipedia.org
From Iain Macwhirter, political editor of the Sunday Herald:
‘As the old slogan says: The Catalans united can never be defeated.’
link to heraldscotland.com
Beautiful reporting, rev. As someone above said, these are genuinely scary times. And yet, your voice has emerged. Just this one article puts you among the most forensic and most decent of all European reporters.
Sorry, but just to say that again, in my mind just this one article puts you amongst the most perceptive and most important journalists in Europe, at a time when governments want to be in control of people rather than to be the vehicles of people.
Fab, rev.
“Obviously it’s pretty fucking “irregular” if voters are having to vote at random polling stations because riot police have smashed up the proper ones. That doesn’t mean it was crooked.”
Agreed, I’m pointing out how the international community (bar a few) are attempting to delegitimise the vote.
Excellent piece Stu.
Cleared up a couple of mathematical and constitutional questions that were whirring around in my head.
@ Bob p says at 2:10 pm …. ”Petra .. If scotland were a person,they would be,fair minded,stoic,plain speaking,perceptive. Yeah i never seen ‘Intelligent’ in there either.”
Lol, it seems it just goes without saying Bob.
A comment under the current BBC story on Catalonia:
“36. Posted by casualobserver84
If Scotland had held an illegal referendum then declared independence i would have expected the UK govt to do the same.”
Just in case we are in any doubt!
Spain’s Attorney General, has set bail for the main Catalan government players at €6,207,450 for each case.
According to Catalan news there’s 20 “accused.”
Yet, those who did not participate in the declaration of independence itself on Friday October 27 are not exempt, according to the Spanish Attorney General.
Indeed, charges are being brought to the Catalan government ministers for their “decisions and acts in the last two years” which Maza qualifies as showing “total contempt” for the Spanish constitution.
@David McDowell
There is no such thing as an illegal referendum in Scotland.
“Nationalist”, “Separatist” are IMO terms best avoided when trying to impart a positive message. Too much baggage. Multiple meanings without a string of caveats to clarify. I prefect to go with “Pro Democracy Activist”.
When speaking to Unionists I will no longer answer to the term “nationalist” … yes, I know, you can spout forth about civic nationalism being different etc etc..
However, where appropriate I will call Unionists nationalists because all that baggage tends to fit with their nationalism!
Chick McGregor at 2:56pm
“There is no such thing as an illegal referendum in Scotland”
I didn’t say there was. What’s your point?
‘Heroically peaceful Catalans’ 🙂
THAT is the phrase that I will always carry with me and pass on to my grandchildren.
I agree with Chick. The Scottish Government can hold a second referendum when ever it likes. All referenda are advisory. The clause 30 we all heard so much about last year is an agreement between WM and SG that any result if Yes will be accepted by WM.
The Wee Ginger Dug had an article on this very issue a few days ago in the National. Probably still on the Nationals website.
@Iain mohr 2:12pm
Here’s an idea.
Well, the people of Scotland are sovereign in Scotland. That does not, probably will not, wash with Westminster and the so-called Supreme court should Scotland hold indyref2 without Westminster’s “consent”. Even if it did have this “consent” I wouldn’t put it passed Westminster to still ignore a Yes vote.
Scotland, after a Yes vote which Westminster rejects, could then go to various courts. The British courts will all reject Scotland’s independence of course. The EU probably as well although how the EU feels about Westminster after brexit could play a big part in the EU’s view of Scotland’s independence. Westminster has pissed off many in the EU.
We might have a better chance with the UN. Scotland is different from Catalonia in that it has a clearer history of independence. We still have strong pre-union systems of law and education for example. We have our banking system. Scots law and Scots lawyers could play a big role in persuading other nations of our cause.
It seems to me Holyrood has, over the last few years, been quietly establishing closer ties with many EU states and with states like Norway and Iceland. This softly softly approach could prove vital in the near future.
What should we proles do in the meantime? Well, as I’ve said before, we must boycott the British nationalist media and refuse to pay the bbc tax. Boycott goods which have the Butcher’s Apron all over it. Donate to pro-indy websites and pro-indy parties. We must prepare for some form of peaceful civil disobediance.
The Scottish government could, as WGD has suggested, wait until the 2021 election and make it a definitive referendum on independence in itself. Personally I’m not so sure we should wait that long.
The things Westminster worries about most, in my opinion, are losing face internationally and losing money. So, the Scottish government should start by withdrawing its MPs from Westminster. It should have a vote on independence, regardless of Westminster, regardless of the current britnat presiding officer and regardless of any britnat boycott in parliament. A Yes vote does not need to be followed immediately by a declaration of UDI. Things should simmer.
There will probably be economic side effects but these will impact on ruk just as much as ourselves. In fact the false claims of Scotland being an economic burden on poor England would soon be shown to be the lie it is.
We as individuals must be prepared to make sacrifices. Pro-indy politicians likewise. Those SNP MPs back from Westminster could be used as Scotland’s ambassadors around the world, especially in the UN and in nations where we have built up stronger relations [above].
If Westminster decides to try to physically close down Holyrood our political leaders must be prepared to set up government elsewhere, abroad if neccessary. We non-politians must be prepared to help them out financially and through support via the web.
As all the simmering continues Westminster will be losing face and money. Either they will back down and allow negotiations [via the UN etc] of they will impose some kind of marshall law over Scotland. The latter will just lead to more loss of face and money, especially if we pro-indy souls continue to use boycotts and civil disobedience.
Having said all this, things will probably work out in a totally different way. Maybe worth a wee thought though.
Proud Cybernat @12:52pm
I think the EEC was a good idea, though I have concerns over the way it has evolved into the EU, and now the direction the EU appears to be heading in.
I’m also deeply concerned about the anti-democratic influence of the European Central Bank.
Saying that, I feel that Scotland’s entry into the EU would help to move the political balance within the various associated institutions, away from neo-liberal corporatism and back towards a respect for pluralistic democracy. Whether this would be welcomed by the current EU hierarchy, is another mater entirely though.
The pluralistic legitimacy of the EU hangs in the balance, IMHO.
@dan huil 3.23.
Are you completely ignorant of the FACTS or just being deliberately stupid ?
Your post is a pile of steaming crap.
At best, uneducated crap, at worse, deliberate misleading crap.
Again, just for you.
There is NO SUCH THING as an ILLEGAL referendum in relation to Scotland holding one, but hey, you feel free to post which statute/law makes one ILLEGAL.
Please do not quote the ENGLISH supreme court, which ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT supersede Scots law on Scottish matters such as Sovereignty of the PEOPLE of Scotland.
Yet again, just for you, a Section 30 order IS NOT permission to hold a referendum.
If you are not even aware of such basic realities, then you are best just to shut the fuck up until you are better versed in fact, rather than fantasy.
Apologies to dan huil, my last post was aimed at iain mhor, slavering zoomer..!!
Although, what i wrote on sovereignty stands.
Hmm @geeo..
Apologising then saying f’ off to someone else, almost in the same breath, sounds like you’re stressed pal.
At the risk of repeating what others have said here or on previous recent threads –
Scotland is a country.
Scotland is internationally legally recognised as a country; even the UK’s self-description lodged at the UN since 1945 makes it clear that Scotland is a country. A country in union by treaty with another. Once the Scottish people have spoken and the Scottish sovereign body (ie the parliament) declares the end of that Treaty, Scotland is legally independent. There are no legal grounds upon which the other countries of the world could reject or refuse to recognise our independence.
Scotland is not part of England.
Catalonia is a region, it can also claim to be a nation, it is however very much not a country.
Catalonia is part of Spain.
Thus anyone claiming the situations are the same is overlooking the most obvious legal differences, both in terms of the actual conduction of a referendum, and of the international reaction to it.
Great article IMO Stu. Queensberry Rules provided order to the world of boxing but let us hope that Madrid Rules will not set a new developed world standard for anti-democratic forces. They do serve as a clear reminder to the entire world that modern Spain has not yet recovered from the times of General Franco or the Spanish Inquisition. Dark Forces seem to have been institutionalised. Catalonia, and democracy, needs help from as many corners of the globe as can provide it.
David McDowell
Well, I didn’t say you did. 😛
I was correcting the person you quoted.
Bourdieu and ‘Habitus’ 😉
link to powercube.net
Who’s ‘Rid’ and where the hell does s/he rule?
The pro independence parties intend to stand in the December elections. Sounds like a sensible step, especially if they can get a majority again 🙂
I assume their manifestos will include a commitment to Indy. Or, what’s the betting, Madrid makes it illegal to stand on any policy which it deems ‘unconstitutional’.
Suppose they win a majority, before the world, and again say they stand by Catalonia’s independence.
What will Madrid do then?
Sounds like Madrid is taking a risk with this election. Or, do they plan something subversive?
@geeo 3:45pm
Nae worries, geeo. As I said it was just an idea to throw in the pot in reply to Iain mohr’s post. None of us knows for sure what will happen in the next few years.
Its at least 10 years since I looked this up, not that it means a lot, Catalonia has never been an independent state. Before the eventual merger of Castile and Aragon it was a region of Aragon. It did have a minor king at one point in the very distant past a bit like the Pictish kingdoms which were subject to an over king.
But prior nation statehood is not a prerequisite for independence nor is it always a justification.
Scotland as a nation state which entered into a voluntary union with another nation state under a treaty of union is in a different category because really it is dissolution of that union rather than secession.
To be honest I think that Puigdemont jumped the gun on this. And I can hear the groans (aw naw Ken2!) from here, lol. He knew that holding a referendum would be considered to be illegal. He knew that Rajoy / Madrid would never accept the outcome of the Referendum and that the EU wouldn’t support them with all that entails, such as businesses considering leaving. The polls prior to the referendum showed support of between 36% and 42% (if they were right?). Under such circumstances he should have waited until the polls prior to holding a referendum showed well over 50% support, imo. He / his party could have paid for a poll to be carried out. That to me would have made a massive difference. All they can do now is hope that they get the chance to hold a properly supervised referendum, sometime in the future, to prove that they’ve got support for Independence (or not).
We on the other hand aren’t faced with the same restrictions and we can hold a consultative referendum if we want to. UDI is clearly out for us and a referendum without the Section 30 order would be dodgy, imo. You’d have the Unionist leaders in Scotland (and elsewhere) calling for people to boycott it. We could say too bad to that, but if it were to happen with a massive drop from the 85% turnout we had previously I doubt the result would be recognised by international agencies.
Nicola is obviously aware of that, that having over 50% of the sovereign Scots vote for independence is absolutely crucial. Not 62% of Scots who voted to remain in the EU as part of the Union. So is there anything else that we can do? Maybe Nicola has something up her sleeve? Her Constitutional experts have? Or will we just have to bite the bullet and go for an advisory referendum and if we win get on the phone to Queenie, Queen of the Sovereign Scots, or take the issue to an International Court? Or would Westminster just accept the result? Somehow I don’t think so.
………………………………….
‘One option could be to hold a “consultative referendum,” which would not be authorised by the British parliament, making it advisory rather than binding. Ailsa Henderson, a professor of political science at Edinburgh University, has said it would have a “slightly different constitutional situation, but the basic principle holds”. Westminster would still need to negotiate with the Scottish Government, though.’
link to inews.co.uk
link to legislation.gov.uk
Chick McGregor at 4:05 pm
“@David McDowell Well, I didn’t say you did. I was correcting the person you quoted.”
Perhaps, but by prefacing the comment with “@David McDowell” it appears as if you are correcting me!
galamcennalath says-
“The pro independence parties intend to stand in the December elections. Sounds like a sensible step, especially if they can get a majority again ?”
I wonder if outsiders, holiday home owners etc. are allowed to vote in Catalonia, either in their elections, or in their referendum.
Exactly chick@4.20pm (dissolution of the voluntary union rather than secession).
People really need to remember that basic reality.
Sorry, not the intention. Normal practice here to just indicate post replied to. Often there are many quoted links in a post.
It looks like both Brexit and Catalonia will be taking a back seat as politicians in the UK chase each other with pitch forks. I must say I thought inappropriate behaviour had been largely booted out the workplace more than a decade or two ago but it seems not so in the circles of power.
The papers love a good witch hunt and in this instance it looks like there might be some real witches to burn.
@ galamcennalath says at 4:12 pm …. ”The pro independence parties intend to stand in the December elections. Sounds like a sensible step, especially if they can get a majority again ?”
I read somewhere that they won’t be allowed to stand galamcennalath. May not be correct of course. Poopa-ganda? We’ll just have to wait and see.
Someone on here said that catalonia is not a country its a region, well here is a little history lesson, as far as i know the region
as it was called was invaded and taken over about 300 years ago, the people never agreed to be part of spain, just like scotland over 300 years ago, the people never agreed to be part of any union, in fact people rioted in the streets of scotland, but the parcel of rogues had allready filled their pockets with english gold, and when did Irish and Welsh people give their consent to a union with england, i cannot find any historical evidence that King Edward had everyone round for tea and asked them if they would like to join his little imperialist unionist party, be like sitting down for tea with Mr Khan, and i don’t mean Mr Khan the boxer, who seems like a nice all round good egg lol
galamcennalath @2:58
Old-school nationalism is rooted in emotions born out of a sense of cultural superiority (see Brexit ‘debate’).
Moderate patriots care about what is best for their own nation.
” That the US, UK, Germany, France and many others recognise the unilateral secession of Kosovo, but deny Catalans the same right, obviously has much more to do with alliances and power politics than any adherence to legal or theoretical principles. Spain’s membership of both the EU and NATO means that it is being treated differently, and this lays bare a selective approach to international law. ”
link to archive.is
re Spain, Serbia and Kosovo
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
galamcennalath
I forgot to say that I call myself an ordinary punter and if that doesn’t work, a human rights activist. 😉
Catalonia was the first Spanish mainland province to officially ban bullfighting. The Catalan Parliament voted on the ban in 2010 and the law was implemented in 2012.
However, the Spanish Constitutional Court overturned the ban in 2015, claiming that it went again the Spanish constitution and that an autonomous province did not have the right to ban bullfighting outright.
If I recall the use of rubber bullets was also banned in Catalonia, by the Catalan government. That didn’t stop Madrid using them on voting day.
It would appear the Spainish Constitution over rides all else. As if it was passed down to Spainish by the hand of god.
John h 4.32pm. December elections. Without international observers. This will be a madrid rigged election.
@mike cassidy
Thanks for those links.
I was about to post that the EU current position over Catalonia’s case, albeit perhaps/likely a transient one, has the potential to fuel new controversy over Kosovo, even at this late stage.
Just noting that the msm are also missing out the FACT that an overall majority in the 135 seat catalan parliament voted for the declaration of independence. You have to dig around to find this information as the msm line is that 70 voted for the declaration and 10 voted against and a mysteriously unobtainable number called the rest of the parliament, boycotted the vote. So just in case you want to know it was, 70 for the declaration, 10 against and 55 boycotts or abstentions. So that makes an overall majority of 5.
ps. The ten votes against the declaration might reasonably suggest that there are 80 out of 135 members of the Catalan parliament who believe in democratic processes and would be happy to let the people decide in a fair and peaceful referendum.
O/T.
Boom Boom Boris busted again.
link to scientistsforeu.uk
SCOTLAND didnt enter into a voluntary union with england. There was no referendum,the scum,or as rabbie called ‘a parcel o rogues ‘didnt SPEAK for Scotland.
The EU and Spain are stuck with one another. Spain won’t “Spexit” and the EU needs them and couldn’t unilaterally chuck them out if it wanted to. It could take a long time for a collective decision. Then only if Spain didn’t have supporters within the members. Unlikely.
Sanctions or other available rebukes within the EU framework is about it. Have we seen much of that happening, is there any precedent for ‘punishing’ misbehaving EU members? Have they actually contravened anything within EU ‘Law’ which would demand swift action? Doesn’t appear to be the case.
The UN, as pointed out already here, is somewhat of a toothless tiger. They have certainly tutted and looked over their horn-rimmed spectacles, but that’s about it.
However, as power politics, we can be sure alliances are forming and re-forming. It’s very interesting that Belgium have offered asylum. Very interesting.
Now why would that be? Of all the countries in the world, an EU member and its capital, which as much as any has a vested interest in keeping “seperatism” at bay. Very odd I find that. Allowing Catalunya to issue statements, from effective asylum within Belgium. Yes, the Flemish were sympathetic, yes there are parallels in that the Flemish want shot of those Wallonians. Belgium is not the EU, but that was very quick off the mark. It also now puts Belgium ostensibly at odds with the official EU “internal matter” for Spain. This is obstructing the internal affairs of Spain.
It can only be looked upon as a tacit acceptance of the legitimacy of Catalunya’s stance by the EU. At the very least it’s sending some seriously mixed messages.
Is this a slap at the Walloons? Well they can’t take it any other way, it’s obviously slapping Spain too. Pretty much a general flexing of the muscles at EU members.
I know some here take offence at my “Hauners” but Belgium must have that surely. Germany/France? If so it’s good news for Catalunya, but if it’s a collective of other EU members that’s a major schism in Europe forming.
Damnably interesting stuff though.
OT
Can I be really trivial and juvenile and say what a delight it is to find Trump involved in a Gatesgate scandal.
Advice for rajoy , dont go down the road of suppression,or else you’ll be getting basque part 2. Is that what Spain wants/needs?.we need rational thinkers and cool heads here.
link to archive.is
Spain’s never ending corruption problem doesn’t seem to be getting a mention!
You never know what to actually post on here. Who tells the truth or not?
link to cataloniavotes.eu
The Catalans next step needs to be a withdrawal of labour,shut the factory gates,down tools close the bus stations,airports,ports all infrastructure stopped,close the shops the banks the media the councils,
close and stop everything,
no violence,
or as SNP supporter Jimmy Reid put it,
‘There will be no hooliganism. There will be no vandalism. There will be no bevvying, because the world is watching us’
it`s the only way forward or it will be a slow stalemate which the Spanish State will be happy to let go on for years/ever.
Iain mhor. 5.12. Agree iain,wonder when the eu will punish belgium for giving sanctuary to terrorists.could soon be madrids words. Getting pi**ed off with all this sh**e now. Seems like the little guys in the EU are being sh*t on from a ‘small ‘ height.
Iain mhor..you do not half dribble some pish.
You will find out that the EU/U.N. will indeed have to act when/if the Catalan government take their case to the international courts, where some stark realities will be addressed.
1. UN charters on a peoples inalienable right to self determination supercede a nation state’s constitution regarding referendums.
The stance of SPAIN, denying a referendum, is the illegal position here.
2. The UN/EU will risk looking quite ridiculous when their own charters/laws/constitutions, are thrown at them across the floor of an international court which has been convened to address their failure to follow said charters etc.
If the UN/EU were found in breach of their own rules etc, then the door swings open to further legal challenge on EVERY rule etc they have.
People need to understand how the EU/UN works.
BREAKING from Pravda Quay
with Jackie Kim Ono
link to imgur.com
Scot finlayson 5.37pm.agreed.and also Catalan businesses should refuse to serve madrids stormtroopers guardia civil. Etc etc.hotels bb’s,cafes,restaurants,.Do what the nationalist populace done in ulster and refuse to have any interactions with these occupying forces.
Proud Cybernat @ 17:41,
Yet another good one, PC.
We remain undaunted as long as we can laugh!
Robert Kerr says:
30 October, 2017 at 1:02 pm
@Legerwood
He also was educated at University College Oxford according to Wiki but no mention of degree if any.
The Wiki link to “Biodata at Channel 4 website” gives “Page not found”
I assume the Establishment don’t want us to know too much.
He is in my opinion a shill.
………………………….
Wiki did say he graduated from Oxford but his degree was not mentioned. He also has a postgraduate degree from University of Cardiff which he would not get if he did not already have a degree.
Although he was educated in England I had the impression he was Scottish – and not from a wealth family if one of the few interviews he has given is anything to go by. I have the feeling he tends to try to keep out of the public eye apart from when he is working.
He did a lot of reports about the Rangers debacle and received quite a few threats as a result. He also had some trenchant comments about the Scottish press and their reporting of the Rangers saga.
He has also reported on land reform in Scotland
Liz Castro reporting that the Vice President of Spain has said that
“if the independentistas win the election in December they will re-impose Article 155”
…sounds like something Mugabe would say not a country that is in the EU.
So, have we to believe that Democracy now means doing what your told.
I thought it was something to do with the voice of the people expressing their wishes – silly me.
Of course, here, they’re still obsessed with sexual harassment – oh look a squirrel
( I’m not dismissing the seriousness of sexual harassment just complaining about the blanket coverage which occupies time that could be informing about Kurdistan and Catalonia.)
Bob p @ 17:46,
The real sovereignty test begins now. All the votes in all the plebiscites of the Iberian peninsula and all the judgements in all the high courts count for nothing if enough of the people refuse to accept them.
Which is why it’s a fundamental necessity that a majority are in support of independence. It’s awkward when the division is more evenly balanced, as it may be in this case. Intolerant heavy-handed repression by Madrid may or may not have the intended effect. The interaction that now occurs between the “occupiers” and the “natives” may tip either way.
It’s really down to the people of Catalonia now.
PC, LOL! Heil taxi!
Further to my post yesterday regarding Israel trying to pass the Greater Jerusalem Bill which would create israeli enclaves of the 6 major illegal settlement (under international law, which israel breaches with impunity) and involving 140,000 israeli’s, giving them full voting rights for Jerusalem elections, (creating a 70% israeli population), the following happened today.
FIFA has ruled that they will be taking no further action against the Israeli FA regarding football teams playing within the 6 illegal settlement i mentioned in my earlier post, despite there being a clear breach of FIFA rules on the issue.
The day after israel delayed implementing the Greater Jerusalem Bill (due to american pressure, so it WILL still happen) FIFA clear the pitch (sic)
to make their football teams legitimate, despite being contrary to FIFA rules.
The Palestinian FA are preparing a court case apparently, and quite rightly so.
……..
Still having trouble creating links to Al Jazeera app, will try again shortly to link the FIFA story.
It is reported Catalonia Gov had to get 90 votes. 2/3? Puigidemont got 72.
FIFA story…link to archive.is
With the Brexit negotiations, it is clear if British banks want to operate in Europe, they are going to have to office technical, legal and managerial staff there.
It is also obvious that if Britain wants a trade deal, they are going to have pay a ‘divorce settlement’ for commitments made when they were members.
It is also obvious that investment in the UK is being put on hold and companies and considering moving out of Britain. That happens in periods of uncertainty, not only in ones caused by constitutional changes but also changes of governments that are perceived not to be business friendly.
The same applies to Catalonia. Whether Catalonia likes it or not, if they do get independence, Spain is their biggest trading partner and if they want to deal, they will need to pay a divorce settlement as well. Therefore, Spain won’t go down the toilet if a wealthy region leaves because if Spain goes down, so does Catalonia.
Catalonia is to a point in the same situation as Britain yet the coverage is completely different. During out referendum, it was Project fear, with the Catalans, it’s becoming like Project Doom.
With this nonsense given out by the media, it is giving Rajoy carte blanche to do with his wants, rather than a sensible solution that was acceptable to both sides.
Of course, the British media has it’s own agenda in relation to our attempts for Independence but the American media are the worst. No wonder Trump loses his rag with them. Fake news? A five year old could write better news than them.
At ken500
A plebescite is 50% plus one vote. They got 90%
A parliamentary majority is a simple majority. Plus one seat.
Anything else is a bastardisation of democracy. The notion that a represented view of the public needs a 2/3rds approval to be valid in a democracy is just nonsense.
The permanent representative of the Catalan government to the EU, Amadeu Altafaj, resigned on Monday, TASS reported. The decision came after the Spanish government closed the Catalonian envoy’s office in Brussels, according to Altafaj’s letter published by Ara newspaper. The EU has not taken an active enough position towards the Catalonia crisis, he said.
Europe should always promote seeking solutions and strengthening dialogue, Altafaj wrote.
link to rt.com
What we are witnessing is a conflict between Spain’s right to maintain it’s territorial integrity and the Catalonia ‘people’s’ right to self-determination. If the Catalans are a “people” in the same way Scots are, then they have international law on their side.
link to hwww.tamilnet.com
Territorial Integrity
link to pesd.princeton.edu
link to usip.org
Meg merrilees @ 30 October, 2017 at 6:07 pm
Sexual harassment and the patriarchal hegemony that allows it has been going on for ever yet it is only getting coverage now.
It is no coincidence that it is just happening now when there is so much going on at home and in the world. It is simply mis-direction and burying bad news.
@pacman.
Name one company which has ACTUALLY left Catalonia since the referendum ?
Moving the HQ is not the same as ACTUALLY ceasing to trade and operate in Catalonia, so again, name one.
Mayor of Dublin welcomes the
Republic of Catalonia
video here
link to twitter.com
@Robert Graham says: 30 October, 2017 at 12:18 pm:
“A few people on here asserting the situation in Spain is totally different from ours,
Oh really how does that pan out then ? “
It pans out as both the Scottish situation and the United Kingdom situation are different from both the Catalan and Spanish situation.
Or hadn’t you noticed that?
” … the similarities are there for all to see, it’s that obvious “
Aye! So they are – as are the differences.
“it’s laughable to try and interpret it any other way.”
Says the guy who cannot apparently see the differences – maybe because he doesn’t want to.
“In short get a f/n Grip and use yer brain for once.
Oh! Dear! I’d better not say any more or I’ll be getting accused of being abusive — again.
Wise up, Robert, no one has ever claimed there are not, “similarities”.
The term, “similarities”, implies there are obvious differences.
They are similar – not identical nor are they the same.
Now that really does make your silly outburst and your abusive comment rather hilarious.
spanish vp, ” if the catalan indy supporters win the election on 21st dec, they wont accept the vote”
um……………
Point of observation ~
On the 1st October 2017, both peaceful Yes AND No Catalonian voters were assaulted with violence by Rajoy’s riot squad.
Both Yes AND No voters were beaten up.
A minority of No voters were assaulted.
Have the no now gone frae No to Yes?
Some and same journey eh.
geeo @ 30 October, 2017 at 6:27 pm
This is me you are talking to, not comic book newspapers that says the 1000’s of companies are leaving, yet can’t name one.
Where in my post did I say that any company has left Catalonia?
Ken501 says:
It is reported Catalonia Gov had to get 90 votes. 2/3? Puigidemont got 72.
————–
who reported this? where was it reported? franco’s headstone? the stars? or did your handler tell ya that
geeo @ 30 October, 2017 at 6:27 pm
Not sure if my other comment went but I can’t be bothered typing it up again.
Where in my comment, did I say that a company has left Catalonia?
link to en.wikipedia.org
“On 18 February 2008, the President of the TRNC congratulated the people of Kosovo on their new-found independence, in direct opposition to the Republic of Cyprus, which rejects Kosovo’s declaration of independence,[10] but not Turkey, which was the fifth country to recognise Kosovo.[11] However, presidential spokesman Hasan Ercakica stated that the TRNC was not preparing to officially recognize Kosovo.[12] In contrast, the Republic of Cyprus has rejected Kosovo’s declaration of independence and, given the ICJ ruling that Kosovo’s declaration of independence was not illegal, stated that Kosovo and Northern Cyprus were not analogous situations.[13] Some analysts have argued that the independence of Kosovo could provide support for the recognition of Northern Cyprus.[14] ”
That’s Mícháel McDonncha, the first Sinn Féin mayor of Dublin. Good for him.
@Andy Anderson says: 30 October, 2017 at 12:25 pm:
“Stu I agree with your research and comments. It all comes down to biased UK media somehow working together to trot out the same unbalanced crap so that we feel support for Madrid.”
That’s a very astute observation, Andy.
… If I was cynical I would say this relates to a possible Brexit compromise with Spain on Gibralter. If I am correct then this would indicate WM control of our news.”
Thing is, Andy, there is really absolutely no doubt that Westminster does indeed control our news. In fact it isn’t our news it is their news.
In spite of their propaganda that leads people to imagine that they, the licence payers, pay for the BBC it simply isn’t true.
Yes the BBC is responsible for collecting the Licence fees and issuing the actual licence. However the term Licence means the holder is given permission – in this case permission to view live Video Broadcasts from any source. Not just from the BBC – If the BBC ceased to exist tomorrow the government would still demand viewers paid for a licence to view the other broadcasters.
The Licence fee money goes to the Treasury and belongs to the Treasury. The BBC, as a private corporation, can, and does, make money from selling services and programmes but it’s main income is from a Westminster Grant that has, just by coincidence, recently been renegotiated. I really have no idea if the licence fees collected is greater or less than the BBC gets back in return.
As for the dead tree press and independent broadcasters they rake in a fair old whack from all levels of UK government including even Community Councils. Public Service Broadcasts and Government campaigns and information are paid for and that includes such things a job advertisements.
So factually the BBC’s real paymasters are Westminster and he who pays the Piper continues to call the tunes.
@Robert PeffersL “Oh! Dear! I’d better not say any more or I’ll be getting accused of being abusive — again.”
Absolutely Robert, you’re completely capable of making a very good argument without the need of “pish” (as does the blog owner), so why weaken your case by doing it?
Reminds me of when working in Germany, voices got louder and louder as people tried to win by being loudest. Must admit I loved it, it was hilarious, I joined in with glee.
Anyway, there was this Yank who, when it was getting nowhere, would stand up and go to the board, wait till noise died down, and then gesture at the loudest one and say “You’ve got a very good point there”, and then put his own likely different view forward. Decision made, meeting adjourned.
Here is what happened about one month ago, us People of Scotland.
482 current comments, check out the pictures to see, watch the videos and relook at the pictures again, frae start tae finish:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The link of the lady above could be yer maw, yer sister, yer wife, yer neighbour, yer friend… how does that make ye feel.. outraged.. ye feeling “better together?” Exactly.
IT COULD BE YOU!
Love Visca.
“The Licence fee money goes to the Treasury and belongs to the Treasury.”
“but it’s main income is from a Westminster Grant that has, just by coincidence, recently been renegotiated”
Robert peffers.
According to BBC’s TV Licensing offical page,Over 90% of the licence fee is spent on BBC TV channels, radio stations, BBC iPlayer and online services.
link to tvlicensing.co.uk
Also Robert, Wiki claims the BBC is a Statutory Corporation. A statutory corporation is a corporate body created by statute.
It typically has no shareholders and its powers are defined by the Act of Parliament which creates it, and may be modified by later legislation.
Such bodies were often created to provide public services.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
news
trump getting pelters, forces moving against him, this issue will run in the background for a while, until they can get him to resign, jailed etc. it seems to be spilling over into the leave campaign, farage etc.
tories imploding, lots of scandal about abusive mps etc, that will run for a bit, not sure if it will make a significant difference to the parliamentary arithmetic, but this release of info looks like an inside job.
from the few polls i’ve seen, most folk, even in spain, are agreed the catalans should get a referendum. the eu will find it difficult to ignore puigdemont now he has pitch a tent on their lawn. 🙂 If I were him, i would be demanding international observers to protect the catalan voters on the 21st dec election.
when they win again, and rajoy rejects the result again, public opinion across spain and the eu will turn against rajoy, it could well bring down his government.
legal or illegal, region, soveriegn country…… meh.. it is the real politik which counts, i think puigdemont has read the runes correctly.
i think tanks on the lawn at holyrood during indyref2 is very unlikely now. even brexit is struggling to make the news this week 🙂
I think the majority of the people using this site has ever read articles of the Treaty of Union. Nobody in their right mind would ever sign such a treaty nowadays.
It would not have been signed originally but for bribery and corruption of the signatories.
The Scottish people should tell the Scottish Government to rescind the Treaty a Westminster has altered the treaty over 300 years to suit England.
I think the majority of the people using this site has never read articles of the Treaty of Union. Nobody in their right mind would ever sign such a treaty nowadays.
It would not have been signed originally but for bribery and corruption of the signatories.
The Scottish people should tell the Scottish Government to rescind the Treaty a Westminster has altered the treaty over 300 years to suit England.
O/T
link to facebook.com.
Bryant’s no better than the perpetrator, he had information that he didn’t report to the Police at the time as he was part of the establishment, & he’s still doing the same thing, mentioning a member of the royal family , He could name & shame under Parliamentary Privilege fucking bastard looking out for self .
SO…
Smile for that iCatalonian camera, click on 01/10/ref blue link 🙁
“43%” ah heard that number on the radio recently too.
To do with health service, new magic number?
Tis almost the spooky hour of 31…
Aooooow!
Exactly.
54% funded, five days to go!
link to indiegogo.com
Make it count.
Cheers Aye.
Revolution on a Monday night eh…?
Heck, any day will do.
Twisted Sister on “Shortbread Radio”
We’re no gonnae take it…?
Ahhhhhhh ha ha ha..
Listen to yer sister.
That’s funny.
I’ve put on darker trousers so.my dribbly pish stains don’t show. It’s an age thing, I was black affronted!
Anyway, the UN
Article 2
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll
Pretty much the Ladybird Book of the United Nations Sovereignty over other nations militarily or legally, page 1.
The EU
I’ll leave it to someone better qualified than me, to explain which part of EU law Spain is in breach of and where the EU supercedes and has sovereignty over a nation state member. I think that’s been done. I may misremember again, about the EU saying it was an internal matter and didn’t concern the EU directly. Naturally, this does not preclude that there have been breaches of a EU charter or legislation.
It certainly isn’t in keeping with the spirit of the UN charter, that’s for sure. But, well, the UN is pretty clear on how they can interfere in internal politics.
They’ll sort it out though. Well known for sorting out countries in breach of the UN charter. Err, no not really. Or has anyone a concrete example of it?
Or (damn I’d love it to be so) is there a Secret World Star Chamber which upholds all the legislations the other international entities have set if they don’t do it.
For the record, I think it’s been a really shitty thing for Spain to pull and various organisations have been terribly lax in making plain their position. It’s not as if they haven’t had time to assess potential outcomes. This didn’t suddenly spring on them out the blue.
I also have no argument with the idea that Scotland is an internationally recognised country. I haven’t looked specifically where that’s set down in an internationally legal tome, but I’ve been assured it is. If so, nor do I have an argument that it’s an actual fact. Nor do I have a problem with the principle that if Scotland, with a mandate from it’s sovereign people, decides to dissolve a Union and declare itself independent, it has the strongest case for legitimacy. I wish it would happen, I truly do.
Just, hmmm, just there’s at least one entity which does not recognise any of this. On record as saying so quite explicitly.
The UK parliament. But, quite frankly, they can lick my dribbly, pishy trousers.
@ Nana at 6:28pm …..”Video of Mayor of Dublin supporting Catalans.”
I see that someone commented below the video, that “the Mayor is standing on the same spot that our forefathers stood on when giving the Irish Proclamation of Independence from the British.”
Well done Michael McDonncha.
………………………
There’s seemingly over 30 individuals on the Tory sexual harassment list alone now. Just thinking that they must be bricking it in that the victims aren’t poor wee kids that some of them were sexual abusing, traumatised adults now (or better still for them dead), but rather extremely able, articulate adults, male and female. Theresa May was sitting in the Commons looking absolutely (Brexit) exhausted, totally bewildered and perturbed. The latter no doubt because in all her years in office no one as much as ventured near her to slap her on the bum.
And while I’m on the subject they should start investigating the Local Councils. They’d get their eyes opened with what’s been going on / is going on there.
Oops that’s better!
Dedication to the beautiful iPeople of Catalonia ~
Uncut (completely transparent)
link to youtube.com
Let’s keep it REAL, in pictures.
BE OUTRAGED!
REPLAY!
NB: whaddya wanna do with YOUR life…?!
The idea that the Catalan situation is nothing like ours is one that the MSM would like to perpetuate. We self-reference too much because we are obsessed with Independence and seek false parallels wherever we find them, they tell us.
That is what they would have us believe. Catalonia is not a country the way Scotland is – so what, it wants to be. Who decides whether a region is allowed to become a country? Surely it is up to the people who self-identify as different from those that govern them and want to change that? The whataboutery is extended to Shetland and other areas of Scotland – what if they want Independence? Well let them go for it, I say. Who are we to say otherwise?
What cannot be denied, however, is that Imperial powers are the least likely to give up control and their machinery of government is designed to make it as difficult as possible for those wanting to leave. What does this say about those who want to strip away anything that allows independence of thought, culture or government?
O/T Will May, who has presided over the most incompetent UK government ever, be brought down by old-fashioned sleaze? How awfully Tory, although no one can claim immunity here.
“Their democratically-elected government has been dissolved for no other crime than trying to discover the will of its people. Their media is being taken over by the state. Their politicians are being imprisoned under medieval treason laws. The chief of police has been fired. If these things happened in a Third World country it would rightly be regarded as a coup and the UK press would be baying for military intervention.”
In my humble opinion, much worse awaits Scotland in the highly unlikely event that Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds an “illegal” independence referendum.
Rainy really is channeling Erdogan beautifully. Separated at birth perchance?
Edinburgh University employs a unionist and from espana. Next time he is on — as he has been on the BBC quite a lot recently maybe our biased reporter can ask if he believes Gibralter should remain a colony — UK GB NI or of Spain?
Its a bit embarrassing Spain has an enclave on the
African coast which Morocco wants back.
Who would want to be a colonial power anymore? Spain, England, Russia……
Buena suerte y mantente seguro @Grouse Beater says at 11:00 am
Call me cynical @Petra says at 8:16 pm
“There’s seemingly over 30 individuals on the Tory sexual harassment list alone now.”
Is that enough by-elections to topple Mays Government and stop Brexit?
Funny this Sexual harassment culture has been ongoing and known about for years but only becomes an issue now.
schrodingers cat @ 18:29, 19:36,
Actually, that quote from a member of the Madrid establishment, if true, can already be construed as untoward interference in a forthcoming election with intent to deter and intimidate.
It would be the verbal equivalent of sending in armed intervention as already happened in the referendum. More subtle, but same intent and effect.
One is reminded of Berthold Brecht’s barbed comment on the former East German regime that what it really needed was to dissolve the electorate and elect a new one.
You have to wonder exactly what the Madrid regime are trying to prove. They just can’t seem to suppress their latent Francoist tendencies. A useful if unfortunate reminder of what happens to democracy when far right parties get into power, not least when they are aided and abetted by leftists with high opinions of themselves but who in reality are just other self-serving supporters of the system.
This kind of thing though just isn’t compatible with the standards we, as Europeans, pride ourselves on having and respecting. This isn’t Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. Europe does have the power to act, and sooner or later it will have to do so or die of shame and decrepitude.
Governments may be shilly-shallying and hesitant, but we don’t have to be. We should begin a Europe-wide boycott of Spanish produce except for what comes from Catalonia.
Think Catalunya.
Remember:
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
I wonder if Cairnstoon is working on a Halloween special..?
BRUK Exit is their nightmare.Who Dares Rules.
We used to buy a lot of Spanish produce including wine but no longer. Pity but there you are. You have to stand by your friends.
Anybody have news of the Nth Irish talks today , has Brokenshire made a statement .
RJS 8.56pm..agree Robert which is why me and the missus are taking the caravan down to blanes for 8 weeks in may 2018. I’m having some of that lovely white rioja,now that I’ve reached state pension age.And for all you PSB’s “apologies to yes voters”who will have to work longer because of your Tory pals. I’ll drink a toast to yous PMSL.
Hi Rock at 8:34 pm.
You typed (or generated),
“In my humble opinion, much worse awaits Scotland in the highly unlikely event that Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds an “illegal” independence referendum.”
That’s three days containing the same paraphrased comment in at least one of your posts. So, I’ll type it again – you’re a bot that needs more input into your database.
And for lurkers:-
The Scottish Government/Parliament can have a referendum, on any subject, whenever it likes. We do NOT require permission from Westminster. We, Scots, are in a union created by the Treaty of Union, 1707 and, if we Scots vote for it, we can remove ourselves from that treaty and, once again, become an independent nation.
No “separatism”, no “seccession”. We just vote to repeal the Act of Union and we astand proud again as a nation.
Or umma wrang?
@Brian Doonthetoon 9.21pm
You are of course correct, and if there were any more percents than a hundred of them you’d be all of those too
As for the dimwit who keeps saying different he has a dimwitted agenda for doing it
Ach weel, my last post disappeared.
Anyway, I thought perhaps a valid fact had been pointed out to me, so I reached for my copy, then went and checked their Charter online, in case it was out of date.
But pretty much no.
UN Charter
Article 2
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.
(If anyone is interested VII is pretty much dealing with breaches of the peace requiring military intervention)
While all you yoons are working your bollox off and waving your flegs on the 12th, keep an eye out for me on ‘bargain loving brits in the sun ‘ I’ll be the one with the celtic tap. Pmfl
Did the EU not read the Spanish constitution before they accepted Spain into the club?
The Spanish fascists echo the Hinging Judge, Lord Braxfield, who banished the Scottish martyrs to Botany Bay for sedition:
“The British constitution is the most perfect constitution since the world began. It is not possible to improve it.”
Or words to that effect.
They use the same methods as those 18th century Scottish placemen used against Thomas Muir:
From a good historical overview from Kenneth R Johnston of Indiana.
link to euppublishing.com
@ BDTT as you say its ah Bot wie the trotts
@ Ronnie at 7:45pm ……….. “Bryant.”
Thanks for that Ronnie, but bl**dy diabolical.
They’re all coming out of the woodwork now and maybe he’ll be forced to name and shame.
All I know is that some (many?) individuals’ misfortune, which we can’t do anything about now, will prove to be helpful for us in the long run, between people being scunnered with Brexit, paedophile cover-ups and now this.
There was also really good coverage of the Faslane Coke Fiasco shown on STV tonight. No doubt a real eye-opener for some.
“Did ye hear the news the nicht, Tam, nuclear weapons in Scotland?” “Aye, Shug, Englin dumped them oan us.” “When did thiy dae that?” “Yonks ago.” “Bliddy hell, whaur ur thiy, Tam?” “At Faslane.” “Whit jist doon the road fae me in Helensburgh an a didnae knaw?” “Aye and wae yon Trump runnin the UK thir riddy tae go aff anytime noo, Shug.” “God almichty I think all dae a moon licht flit the nicht, Tam. Ah know somebiddy wae a wee but’n ben in the middle o nae whaur at Coulport.”
Apologies for my rotten command of Scots, lol.
Exactly @Brian Doonthetoon says at 9:21 pm
“We just vote to repeal the Act of Union and we astand proud again as a nation.”
Fully agree.
Strange though how the BritNat MSM and BBC never explain why voting for the UK to end the Union with European Union is so Patriotic and the right thing to do yet voting for Scotland to end the Union with England is “divisive separatism”
Fuds the lot of them.
Not sure where 57% comes from. No link to source. There was photos of voters voting multiple times and it is totally unclear on how accurate and above board the count was. Claiming that any certainty can be assigned to this election is bonkers and lacks any credibility. I have no view on the legitimacy of the plebiscite, but to make any arguement about accuracy of the numbers when it took place in utter chaos is daft.
@JWT above..
Exactly.
Scottish independence is more like brexit than Catalonia, and people really need to get that fact clear in their heads.
Brian Doonthetoon,
“We, Scots, are in a union created by the Treaty of Union, 1707 and, if we Scots vote for it, we can remove ourselves from that treaty and, once again, become an independent nation.”
By your own admission, Scotland is not an independent nation.
The Scottish parliament is not “sovereign” as it stands.
Which other nation on earth has a “sovereign” parliament in charge of only a tiny fraction of the nation’s revenues?
Not even Ireland will recognise the result of an “illegal” referendum in Scotland.
Anyway, I can say with 99% confidence that there will be no “illegal” independence referendum in Scotland.
Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa when she refuses permission for a referendum before Brexit has been completed.
Can ah just say, it’s waaaaay after the water-shed.
Almost an hour.
FUCK!
Word of the day, DECREPTITUDE.
We’ll done RJS! Describing the near-future EU, IF IT DOESNT MODERNISE IT’S APPLICATION OF IT’S FUNDAMENTAL STANDARDS.
Meaning- the state of being old and in poor condition.
DECTRPTITIDE, INCAPACITATION.
It would be interesting to know if Puigdemont, with the benefit of hindsight, would have done anything differently.
It feels harsh doing it, but I think the global community’s response to Catalonia is an eye opener for us.
I fear there is a world of difference between ourselves as Scottish Independentists who have faith in Scots Law and Constitutional Sovereignty, and the prevailing view of everybody else. I’m not saying we are wrong, but there are some big misconceptions at large which need to be corrected.
It’s very reassuring to talk amongst ourselves about Scotland’s latent Constitutional strength, and confronted by Catalonia’s trials and tribulations, steal ourselves to believe that Scotland will be treated differently.
With our sovereign vote to remain ignored at home and abroad, with Michel Barnier only negotiating with Westminster, with the EU’s antithesis towards secession evidently being more potent than the EU’s antithesis towards Fascist interference with democracy, and with Donald Tusk’s candid admission that despite all that has happened in Catalonia, Spain remains the EU’s sole interlocutor over Catalonian secession, – I would very much like to read the Sovereignty Instruction Manual so that I understand the protocol and process of getting the principle of Scotland’s inalienable Sovereignty properly established and recognised as the ascendant phenomenon.
I fully understand a Section 30 Agreement is not permission to hold a referendum, but agreement that Westminster will respect the result. I confess it still niggles me. Rather than pursue a tepid and subservient Section 30 Agreement, why don’t weinstead cite Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty as the basis and justification for the result being respected?
There will be a referendum 6 weeks after Brexit.
It will be announced 4 weeks before brexit.
Scotland will be independent. The icing on our ancient, naked sovereignty, not much will change at first. Then, hard work.
Yup @geeo says at 9:48 pm
We need to push a
“Scottish exit fae the UK tae escape the clusterf**k that is Brexit”
The more Brexit bites and hits Soft Nos in the pocket the more likely they are to vote Yes.
In the end it always comes down to – if those armed men in body armour and guns come here to take over our parliament can we stop them and do we have the guts to try?
Theres a whole load of smoke and mirrors in between but that IS what it comes down to. The smarter countries (such as the UK) just make damn sure it doesnt get there in the first place as that would cause ugly scenes that would have to be omitted in the news coverage.
International politics is frankly brutal and right and wrong simply does not come into it except at a verbal level. Anyone who has been a clear thinking adult over the last 30 years and not lived under a rock should know it.
Taking a hard stance on independence like what the catalans have done makes them an easy target. The Scots have to keep winning the war of information and ideas incrementally, slowly making Westminster look utterly ridiculous while winning the hearts and minds of the up and coming electorate. Slow pressure, steady gains, bit by bit, do NOT give them leverage though drastic actions.
The Catalans have backed themselves into a bad position through impatience and a lack of foresight and played all their cards in one go, appealing to others to recognise their right to democracy. They are right in principle, but naive in reality.
Add, ‘..or not’ to my above.
Manandboy@ 9.08 pm
Funny you mention that.
I nipped into Aldi for a few things on eve Oct 1st . Passing the tomatoes , as usual grabbed a punnet o the cherry ones & suddenly noticed “Spain” ….. Without a thought, almost as if it was the most natural movement, my arm chucked them back and I took another type , Morroco I think.
Sorry but it’s all the power I have “boycot”
All the pre Ref ’14 ASDA , B&Q etc are becoming quite a list now.
F£ck them , they made a choice , I’ll make mine.
Nice to know from FB etc there are others still feel the same.
Petra @ 9.40 pm
“Godalmichty” …. My church going , WW1 survived , grandfather used the phrase regularly …. Smiley fing
Je Suis Puigdemont.
The first and 21st Century Legend.
2017.
He’s doing it.
RIGHT NOW!
What many love about this site is that Rev Stu will openly admit when he doesn’t have a strong opinion about a specific topic or doesn’t know much about it.
But then, as above, he makes the effort to go and find out.
Contrast that approach with the ‘experts’ packing-out BBC/Sky and RT green rooms, desperate to get their appearance money for delivering sage opinions on the situation in Catalonia when they don’t necessarily know anything more about it than someone who bothers to turn on the news.
When you consider that we, in Scotland, were subjected to precisely the same delivery process (involving a lot of the same midwives) when our nation’s future was at stake, the current goings-on *should* ring alarm bells with a lot of those who voted ‘No’. Here’s hoping we see some evidence of that, and soon.
Hi Rockbot at 9:49 pm.
You generated,
“By your own admission, Scotland is not an independent nation.
The Scottish parliament is not “sovereign” as it stands.”
1. I NEVER claimed that, currently, Scotland is an independent nation.
2. I never claimed the the Scottish Parliament was “sovereign”.
You just aren’t able to accept that THE SCOTS, ie, the people who make up our Scottish society, are SOVEREIGN. Westminster tries to obfuscate but that is the fact. If a majority of us vote for an outcome, it WILL happen.
Your program then regenerated, for the FOURTH time in the last three days,
“Anyway, I can say with 99% confidence that there will be no “illegal” independence referendum in Scotland.
Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa when she refuses permission for a referendum before Brexit has been completed.”
Rockbot – give up. You’ve been sussed, as I pointed out on the “telling-the-truth-by-accident” page.
We are all laughing at you now. You’re our village idiot.
Ian Brotherhood is 100% correct about our media.
Perfect point is the Daily Record article by Creepy Clegg.
Talks about Female MSP’s and staff naming 3 MSP’s as sex pests, yet abjectly fails to name them, except to call it “an open secret” at Holyrood.
He goes on to say the following….
…….
“The Record contacted Scotland’s main political parties to ask if any incidents are being investigated at Holyrood
Labour said no allegations had been formally reported. But the party’s former Scottish leader Kezia Dugdale raised concerns in her Record column earlier this month.
She wrote: “There’s a Harvey Weinstein in every workplace. Whether that’s a supermarket, a factory floor, an office block or a national parliament, there’s always one and often many more. We all know who they are.”
The Tories and Lib Dems said no allegations had been made to them”
…………..
No mention of if the SNP responded or not, a cynic might think that is supposed to imply by omission that the 3 sex pests are SNP MSP’s.
Surely the record could have simply reported the SNP response to the question asked of all parties ?
To report nothing, could be to try suggests to the casual reader that the SNP have ‘something to hide’.
Now, I am sure the DR and Clegg would never dare suggest that is the case, being paragons of journalistic integrity as they are…(and YES, that WAS sarcasm).
When a country beats the crap out of its own citizens. That country deserves to be spat on by civil society. I believe in Catalan independence because Spain is a rogue pseudo democratic nation.
Seems that absolute power still corrupts absolutely.
News: Puigdemont, his Depute and a number of other politicians are to be charged with rebellion, sedition and misuse of funds.
………………………………
A terrible fire being reported at a large Welsh farm house. Seemingly a number of people are missing, presumed dead, including children.
……………………………………
You’ve got to laugh at Harriet Harman chuntering on in the Commons about sexual harassment, not putting up with sleaze and so on. Harman and her husband who had close links with the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE)! A full investigation should be carried out into that and she should be kicked out along with the other perverts.
…………………………………….
Jackie Bird revelling in announcing that the SNP have received two complaints of sexual harassment.
…………………………………………….
Protest in Wick against NHS Highland cuts. Some people are demanding that the SG … SNP take over.
…………………………………….
Ha, ha, ha! Jackie Kim Ono Bird just reporting that the McMillan Cancer Charity are setting up an online site / nurse to counter “online fake news” in relation to cancer. The SNP should think about setting up an online site to counter fake news from Jackie Bird and colleagues. I hope she realises that her days are well and truly numbered.
Unpleasant Facts:
1. There is no majority in Catalonia for independence. The immediate past referendum, being constitutionally illegal, will not have attracted the votes of many of those who regard it as invalid, a nullity. It is not only a constitutional nullity, but a political one.
2. Absent a constitutionally legal referendum, the Catalan separatists must either knuckle under and return to the constitution, or put their money where their mouth is and enact a revolution (UDI) by actually declaring independence and suffering the consequences and reaping the supposed advantages. At the moment they are trying to have their cake, but not eat it, to derive all the benefits of a legal success, without going so far as metaphorical ejaculation.
3. UDI would entail immediately leaving the EU and the formal structures of the Euro (though nothing would prevent the use of the Euro for all practical purposes), and economic turmoil that the strongest economy could not survive without severe damage, economic, social and political.
4. Nationhood is about pooling resources and risks. The Catalan splittists do not want to contribute to the support of their other Hispanic partners, who happen to be historically poorer and less developed than they: so the Central Belt of Scotland should dump the rest, because they cost, and they are historically, economically and culturally different? Edinburgh should abandon Gorgie, becuase it is a net liability? Morningside should secede because it does not want to find social improvement for poorere areas? A country is a family, where members ought to share benefits and costs, just as Scotland seeks to do internally, the UK more widely, and the EU with regional and development funding more widely still. There must always be net contributors and net receivers, though these will change with time.
5. The Spanish constitution is rigid by design. The dreadful civil war that delayed the country’s development by thirty years and cost untold lives and human happiness was furthered by the fissipariousness of Spanish politics in the 1930’s. Making splits easy is a recipe for civil war, whether hot or cold.
6. The rule of law does not allow for revolution. You either obey the rules, as we did in Scotland at the independence referendum, or you don’t. If you do not like the result the rules produce but still press on to your goal (which the Catalans have not so far had the balls to do, one suspects because the potential rebels know they do not have real popular support) then, however much you might spout off about National Sovereignty and self-determination, you have a revolution.
7. The splittists are looking for a 1916 moment, for troops firing on the crowds, some ghastly mistake by Madrid, that will divert the current of public opinion in their favour. Their best, only, bet is to provoke a misguided reaction from the centre. This is a cynical and almost criminal course of action.
8. Catalonia is by no measure unfairly treated within Spain. They have a high degree of autonomy, and high status for their language an culture – which has in great degree served to divorce Catalonia from the wider Spanish community by making “Spanish” voices alien, therefore not “heard”.
Ha! A Welsh language blogger, Glyn Adda, after imagining the Catalan situation transposed to Cymru (amusing but also chilling), goes on to suggest that the Catalan PM’s flight to Belgium may not be such a bad idea after all, since governments in exile can acquire considerable status when they represent clearly oppressed people. However it’s his conclusion that I have to echo here.
He writes : “It would be a good idea for Scotland to offer a home to the Catalan government in exile. It would raise the status of Scotland in the world and give rise to enormous embarrassment to the UK [government]. How about it, Nicola?” 🙂
Original here, I’m not making this up! :
link to glynadda.wordpress.com
#jesuisp
Lymphad (10.55pm) says…”…..”
And another pish dribbler is born…!
Lymphad – thanks for word fissiparous, a new one on me. Interesting post
On Wings…
There is no watershed.
🙂
lymphad at 10.55
Goodness. A new voice talking the same old shite.
The Catalan nationalists have made it absolutely clear that they will countenance no violence (unlike the government in Madrid).
However ….here comes the two questions again.
(Q) Do the people of Catalonia under the terms of the United Nations Charter and by any measure of acceptable democracy have the right to a vote to decide how and by whom they are governed?
A) Yes
Q) If there is no majority for independence in Catalonia why is Spain and Rajoy refusing it a referendum
A) because they know there is a substantial majority for independence.
As I said we had a report from Catalonia from three people who had been there for some time. These are politically very experienced people.They have absolutely no doubt that there is a substantial majoity for independence there.
The fact that the Spanish Government is providing free transport from all across Spain for folk to go and demonstrate in Barcelona tells us all we need to know.
The fact that our media is not reporting this tells us what we already know.
This clumsy stuff from Spain will maybe deceive some folk across Europe but wont deceive the people of Catalonia so I don’t know the reason for it.
lymphad’s post is virtually all irrelevancies and perhaps he or she thinks we are all idiots. The only important question is the first one above