stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Telling the truth by accident

Posted on October 29, 2017 by

The bit we’ve highlighted reveals and explains a lot.

The principle’s not limited to the Falklands, of course.

And it’s not just the Tories who are firmly committed to upholding it.

So that’s clear: self-determination is fine for “us”. But not you, Catalonia.

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    1. 29 10 17 13:57

      Telling the truth by accident | speymouth

    194 to “Telling the truth by accident”

    1. Andy MacNicol says:

      Neither Catalonia nor Scotland. Only when it suits our purposes or when your right of self-determination agrees with us.

    2. Hamish100 says:

      Benn supports the Tories in so many things.
      The right of the people to determine their own futures is limited by the willingness of the elite to allow it to happen. Brexit is the classic example. The people of Scotland did not vote for a soft or hard Brexit but NO Brexit yet the Tories and labour are determined to ignore that wish.

      In the next year we will have to express the wish clear and firmly. Do we wish to be an independent nation. Yes!

    3. Macart says:

      Self determination, much like democracy and politics in general, is what they say it is.

      Posted this elsewhere, but I think it fits on this subject –

      There’s a real element of ‘don’t look over here, look over there’ about our media presently. Misdirection is the order of the day and there are plenty of big events across the globe for the meeja to spin on (pun intended) to be sure.

      These days it seems the world is ‘spinning’ out of control with dogmas and forces driving people’s opinions and feelings to breaking point. Scary place and no mistake. More and more it seems the peacemakers and progressive thinkers are seemingly on the back foot and reason and empathy lost to the current crop of world leaders. It could give a stone nightmares.

      Y’know about now I’d be struggling to find a world leader, or grouping thereof, you could get behind as a genuine force for reason and reliability. Governments apparently don’t do friendships, they do mutual advantage, mutual interests. The main driving motivation behind international politics as it is practised. Who knew?

      People and peoples have friends. They can have commonly held ideals, hopes, dreams and morals. They can have empathy and fellow feeling. Governments? As I’ve said only recently, they seemingly do the other thing. Maybe they would do well to remember that without empathy there is no imagination and vice versa. You can’t put yourself in the other guy’s shoes. You can’t imagine oppression, suppression of rights, deprivation or suffering with short sighted political gain in mind. You can’t imagine solutions. You can only create more problems.

      So I say again. What happens next WILL define people for a long time to come.

      Better hope that somewhere out there, some of those leaders have a bit of an epiphany.

      In our wee corner of the world, I reckon we’re lucky. I think we do have an FM that hasn’t forgotten how to care and has that bit of empathy and imagination which is scarce on the ground elsewhere. Will it be enough for us? I think we’re going to find out soon enough.

    4. Helena Brown says:

      Well said Macart, I think you have encapsulated the problem we face. The World has always been a terrifying place and we the ones who really should be careful have placed in positions of power the very ones who should never have been given a sniff of it in the first place.
      As you say, excluding our First Minister.

    5. Davy says:

      If theirs one thing we can be sure of, is that Westminster will be noting down everything the Spanish government does to try and re-gain control of Catalonia.

      And when we declare independence, Westminster will use the same methods and try and justify their use by saying “well it was ok when Spain did it”.

    6. Tackety Beets says:

      Posted yesterday but it’s gone into the unknown.

      “Catalunya uber alles”

      Singalong ……back o the bus !

      To the toon by Dead Kennedys ….. California Uber Alles !

      Just remembered I had YuToob link maybe that’s what f€kced it …..Doh !

      Sorry Rev.

      There is a wee clip on FB YES2 etc narrated nicely by a well spoken lady, showing how Madrid keeps saying NO to everything the Catalunyan does thro’ it’s Parliament …..So very familiar to our experience with WM.

    7. Robert Graham says:

      Aye as long as the ultimate holders of power agree you can have as much self determination as we allow you to have .

      The very essence of being allowed – a vote on independence – means we have in the end no say , we have to ask , there lies the problem .

      On another little matter our TV ,search any channel right now , try and find one thing indeed anything that does not relate to England or a English perspective on world events , although we are obliged to contribute to the Licence tax be are effectively airbrushed out of anything thats going on in the world.

      Its no wonder people who support this Union still haven’t a bloody clue we are a Country , we are not greater England , but would be hard pushed to figure that out by absorbing the daily drivel thats beamed into this country from down south , as far as i am concerned a foreign nation looking after themselves at our expense, so many short sighted scots amongst us its depressing .

    8. Mike says:

      As much as I am sympathetic to the Catalonian cause I feel I must inject a tone of caution in openly supporting their cause.
      The Westminster establishment is not above stealing territory from its previous constituent member states.
      Northern Ireland being a case in point. I wouldn’t put it past them to try and claim Shetland and other regions of Scotland on the basis of a regional support to remain in the Union in the result of an overall Scottish vote to leave.
      The fact that they don’t support the Catalan call for Independence on the grounds of legality at least contradicts any attempts to defy legality with regards to Scottish territory remaining Scottish in spite of a vote to remain in the UK.
      But they could argue that we argued for the principle of regions taking autonomy from their Nation states based on a regional desire.
      Nothing is ever simple or black and white.

    9. Brak the Barbarian says:

      Cameron was,for once, being remarkably candid and actually saying what he meant, I don’t think this can be filed under hypocracy.

      He said he would respect the rights of Falklanders AS LONG AS THEY WANTED TO REMAIN BRITISH – the unstated corollary being that if they no longer wanted to remain British then their rights would not be respected!

      All Unionists would agree with that.

    10. RogueCoder says:

      I think it’s important to show our support for Catalonia on the streets, to show them that whatever the BBC says, Scotland has got their backs. So to that end, I’ve put up this crowdfunder to get 1,000 Catalan flags made and distributed for Yes marches and rallies:

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/1-000-flags-for-catalonia/x/6905220#/

    11. Petra says:

      “As long as people in the Falklands want to remain British we respect that right of self-determination.”

      I wonder if Westminster controls who can buy property, live and work in the Falklands?

    12. heedtracker says:

      Christ just the sound of Hilary Benn’s patronising bleh is enough to make you long for Catalonia to make it.

      Sarah Smith, Hilary Benn, two red tory stalwarts of the UKOK political elite, as conservative as it gets in teamGB.

    13. Wullie B says:

      As long as people in the Falklands want to remain British we respect that right of self-determination.

      But the minute they don’t want to be British will not respect that right to self determination would be the likely Westminster mantra esp the Falklands with their discoveries of oil

    14. Petra says:

      I thought I’d check out the situation in the Falklands to find out if Westminster controls who can own properties / land and sure enough they can. Some Argentinian billionaire has just been blocked due to him “being seen to be a threat to national security.”

      Westminster will ensure that a prerequisite to buying property / living in the Falklands is that the individual wants to remain British. Westminster’s policy of self-determination in action. In other words we’ll ‘determine’ for you.

    15. geeo says:

      I really wish people would stop with the nonsense about Scotland needing permission for a referendum.

      That is simply not correct.

      The section 30 order is ABSOLUTELY NOT ‘permission’.

      If we are refused a S30 order, then we simply hold a referendum anyway. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO legal barrier to us doing so.

      If anyone thinks otherwise, please post evidence to support such a claim. (You can’t).

      Remember this, Scotland voting in a referendum minus a S30 may be non binding to the uk gov, but in reality, it is an expressed will of the Sovereign Scottish people nonetheless.

      In such a scenario, the referendum result would stand up to legal scrutiny, and the VOLUNTARY UNION is over due to the sovereign people deciding.

      Sometimes we get hung up on thinking of independence in terms of the Catalan situation, but that is simply wrong, we are voting in a referendum to end a voluntary union with england, we have no need to seek international ‘recognition’ such as Catalonia needs.

      Our situation is more like brexit than Catalonia, and we would do well to remember that.

    16. mike d says:

      Macart 12.41pm good sensible food for thought post.

    17. dakk says:

      Literature and media propaganda will be littered with the hypocritical utterings of British nationalist politicians,and commentators alike.

      It is their most defining trait after all.

      It’s why I cannot believe a single word uttered by anyone who buys into the British state ever.

      Sad,but there you go.

    18. heedtracker says:

      Sometimes we get hung up on thinking of independence in terms of the Catalan situation, but that is simply wrong, we are voting in a referendum to end a voluntary union with england, we have no need to seek international ‘recognition’ such as Catalonia needs.”

      Yes but, if and when Scotland holds ref2 and there is no fabled Westminster Edinburgh agreement and we lose…again.

      Because lets face it, BBC Scotland may now be an unwatchable laughing stock in Scotland today but they probably won ref1 last time, merely by totally terrorising just enough Scots. And they will do it all again too.

    19. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent article. I read wee ginger dug’s latest article on Catalonia and Scotland, very good and worth a read.

      Petra@1.41

      Excellent point Petra. I wonder if Westminster controls who goes hungry and can’t pay essential bills, via UKGov sanctions, or who can or can’t stay in their property, due to the UKGov bedroom tax. Or does Westminster dictate whether the falklands can give contracts for infrastructure, to national companies rather than private companies, like they do re Scotland.

      Do the people of the Falklands have their economic health and wealth controlled by Westminster while the UKGov takes their resources, dismantling their industry when it suits them, and telling the people that are too poor, and therefore subsidy junkies. Though the Falklands no doubt is strategically useful for potential invasion of other countries.

      The Tories and red Tories have had 300+ years to become experts at conning the people of Scotland. They are damn good at it as well.

      We are certainly up against a powerful machine, but the Britnats are not winning the argument either, much to their annoyance.

    20. Bugger Uther Panda says:

      A propos fish and the sell out coming up for North Sea fishing stock to Spain, relevant to the flavour of the duplicitous Westminster administration thread

      The day immediately after Art 50 was initiated I heard that David Davis was in Madrid trying to buy Spain’s acquiescence in doing special deals, which were illegal by way of EU rules for Brexit.

      The EU was negotiating only as a bloc and did not want the UK to cherry pick their way through the 27 members.

      What else was traded away?

    21. Petra says:

      O/T

      The Sunday Herald has published an article today entitled “Holyrood hit by claims of sexual harassment.”

      The claims come from Scotland’s leading Human Rights lawyer Aamer Anwar who says women at all levels have been sexually harassed and that the perpetrators should be running scared.

      He said, “It’s a catalogue of sexual harassment, stalking, social media abuse, sexual innuendo, verbal sexual abuse, touching, sexual assaults, requests for sex, cover up, isolation and bullying.”

      “This is not just a problem for one party. It is a problem for all parties.”

      An SNP spokesperson said, “the SNP condemns all forms on sexual harassment or abuse in any workplace. It is not acceptable and we have a zero tolerate approach to this. If anyone has any complaints to make they should contact the Police, parliamentary authorities or their party. For the SNP, anyone that wants to speak to Party HQ can be assured that their reports will be taken seriously and dealt with confidentially and sensitively.”

      Comments also made by Claire Baker, Annie Wells and Corbyn.

    22. donnywho says:

      As far as the UK government making trouble with the islands, it makes perfect sense for them to raise the issue!

      But it is only there to conflate and befuddle, the Shetlands and the Western Isles can of course have Independence and should if they so wish.

      But the idea that they can then Land grab the offshore resources is total twaddle!

      It is clear that offshore archipelagos do not get the mineral rights to the continental shelf they are attached to. These rights apply to the mainland only and as such Islands have a five mile area of control.

      That said we should invest in the Islands and give them a bigger share of the offshore resources and their management. We do not want to become like Westminster.

    23. Petra says:

      @ ArtyHetty at 2:39pm ….. “The Tories and red Tories have had 300+ years to become experts at conning the people of Scotland. They are damn good at it as well.”

      Spot on ArtyHetty. I would love to be a fly on the wall at some of their (secret) meetings. Experts in every possible field from economics to history, IT to psychology, sitting around a table each offering their ‘input’ as to how to maintain control over their wee colonies and of course how to continue to destabilise and rip off countries in the Middle East. Their greatest enemy now is the Internet and as we all know they’re going hell for leather to ‘control’ that too. Experts or not their days are numbered now. From Great British Empire to wee England on it’s tod.

    24. jfngw says:

      The Tories (Labour would be exactly the same) will attempt buy off large portions of the dissenters in any future ref, what’s a few million of our money when they can throw £1bn to the DUP. My impression is those like the fishermen will be easily bought as they don’t really have the long term interest of the industry but their own bank balance as their main aim, why else would they have almost emptied the sea of their main catch if they didn’t.

      After all it isn’t the first time personal wealth has made ‘patriots’ vote for WM rule.

    25. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I think I’m currently suffering from hypocrisy overload.

      But if I were an inhabitant of Gibraltar, Brit connection or no, the last thing I would want is to have any of that Spanish “legality” forced on me.

      Governments old and new in Madrid really do seem to struggle with that “how to make friends” thing.

    26. Wullie B says:


      donnywho says:
      29 October, 2017 at 2:50 pm
      As far as the UK government making trouble with the islands, it makes perfect sense for them to raise the issue!

      But it is only there to conflate and befuddle, the Shetlands and the Western Isles can of course have Independence and should if they so wish.

      But the idea that they can then Land grab the offshore resources is total twaddle!

      It is clear that offshore archipelagos do not get the mineral rights to the continental shelf they are attached to. These rights apply to the mainland only and as such Islands have a five mile area of control.”

      Not quite true donnywho. If the islands remained with rUK then they would have 12 nautical miles BUT if they went true independent then they would also be entitled to a 200 nautical mile EEZ and to a median line equidistant from the Scottish landmass be it mainland or Orkney and it would benefit the Shetlanders no end to do just that as they would have a bloody big swatch of area with the north sea oil fields but if they remained with rump UK hen they get left with a few miles of water they have anyway and half of that has a licencing system that favours their own vessels

    27. Chick McGregor says:

      Geeo

      I agree.

    28. CameronB Brodie says:

      I try to avoid repeating myself but the moral code that underpins British nationalism is, MORAL RELATIVISM. I’d previously suggested it was meta-ethical in nature but it’s a bit more complicated than that. I’m rusty and had forgotten to include a normative aspect to meta-ethics. 🙂 Anyhoo, this philosophy of government is prone to conflicts with the principle of universal human rights.

      Noam Chomsky on Moral Relativism and Michel Foucault
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i63_kAw3WmE

    29. Velofello says:

      @ Petra: I noticed that the “proIndy” Sunday Herald article quotes –
      A Scottish Parliament spokesperson
      Scottish Labour justice spokesperson, Claire Baker
      Tory MSP Annie Wells
      Labour Leader Corbyn, and finally,
      An SNP spokesperson.

      Annie Wells does seem to be a “go to for quote” for journalists. Wells having secured just 2000.votes becomes an MSP and then proceeds to state she doesn’t recognise the authority of Holtrood.

    30. Andy Anderson says:

      Geoo you are spot on.

    31. Arbroath1320 says:

      I have been rather overtthis week in showing my support FOR Catalonia.

      https://twitter.com/0604Arb1320/status/924437573728169984

      p.s. before anyone picks me on my Cataln here I am not a speaker of Cataln, or Spanish for that matter. I only hreard this being spoken from a video earlier in the week so apologies to everyone if my spelling is wrong. 😉

      Not to put my steel helmet and armour on. 😀

      I posted this a feww weeks ago on Facebook with regard to my thoughts on a way for Scotland to become independent. I know I’m in a minute minority of ne here but hey it’s Sunday and I’m in a bit of “let’s stir the shit” kinda mood today. 😀

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/oorplace/permalink/2223503107875986/

      I know this will never happen but hey I like the approach andit denies Westminster any chance of interfering, fixing or just generally corrupting any referendum result.

      *dives down into deep underground bomb shelter* 😀

    32. Effijy says:

      interpret-

      Falklands would be free to become an independent state
      or part of Argentina, as soon as the UK Tories have secured any oil or mineral rights for their own purposes.

      The rocks and sheep they will give up in good will.

    33. geeo says:

      @wullie B.

      I doubt if it would be legally possible for the ‘islands’ to remain in the uk when Scotland becomes independent, that would be a question for later, by which time they would be 100% a part of an independent Scotland and the criteria laid out by donnywho would apply if the islands went for independence from Scotland at a later date.

      You are completely over thinking it.

    34. Graham Niven says:

      Westminster policy on self-determination:

      Self determination which benefits “British interests” = good

      Self determination which is detrimental to “British interests” = very, very bad

    35. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      donnywho @ 14:50,
      Wullie B @ 15:32,

      The only people actively pushing this whole “island independence” thing are BritNat disrupters. The same-old-same-old divide-and-rule. They don’t give an actual damn about the islands, just like they don’t care about anyone else either except themselves.

      Find a few local tools like Armstrong and boost them way beyond their real influence. All just useful pawns in their cynical mind games.

      Where real resources are at stake, the Brexitannian Empire is not going to just give them all away with an airy wave of the hand and “hearty good wishes” to a small handful of islanders.

      It’s desperate to hang on to these resources merely to stay afloat. Just as it was happy to trade away the fishing rights before, and has been parasitising on the oil for these last 40-odd years. UK Ltd. is suddenly going to become Santa Claus? Get real.

      One of the many ordure-mixing distractions that are going to be thrown our way before too long. We should have more sense, and have nothing whatever to do with it.

    36. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING: Belgium considering asylum for Catalan President – Twitter.

    37. Petra says:

      @ Vellofella at 3:38pm ….. “Annie Wellls.”

      She seems to have a bigger Mooth than Rooth and less brain cells. How anyone can go from working in M&S to Holyrood with no relevant experience / qualifications is beyond me. Then again maybe that has just dawned on Ruth and Annie’s become top of her ‘hit list.’

      ………………….

      I’m just wondering if we’ll have an 8% share of the Falklands when we get our Independence? If so we’ll take the oil fields, such as Rock Hoppers 300 million barrels of oil, and Westminster can have their thousands of sheep. Westminster / Scottish deal in reverse.

    38. Petra says:

      Oops sorry “Velofello” not “Vellofella”!

    39. Wullie B says:

      @Robert J Sutherland and geek , normally this wouldn’t bother me BUT the inherent flaw in both theories are those who have moved north with oil and the fishing industry who I can assure you have no love of the Scottish Government as we saw during the last general election, I was told I was havering when I warned of the north east being lost. Both those groups in a small populace place enough of a problem and if as you say Robert that Shetland goes independent after Scotland goes independent, that EEZ comes into place just as much as the Faroes have a similar EEZ in place.

      The SG have to get both island groups well on side before indy 2 kicks off and keep them onside afterwards and not forgst them like Westminster is wont to do

    40. Wullie B says:

      Sorry Geeo predictive text ruined last one, didn’t mean to call you geek

    41. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 16:18,

      I wouldn’t agree that just because someone has “only” worked in M&S that somehow automatically disqualifies them from being MSPs. We need people in there who have real experience of how life is lived right across the piece.

      What we don’t need – and there I agree with you – is empty-headed mouthpieces who ignorantly parrot the current party line against all good sense. I guess Annie Wells fits that description very well.

      Besides which, something needs be done about the oath of allegiance when taking up the office of MSP. Anyone who blatantly dismisses their own Parliament as irrelevant ought to be immediately suspended, and if the statement is found to be true, dismissed and a replacement found via (say) a suitable by-election.

    42. Ian Foulds says:

      Macart at 12.41

      I think the ‘nail has been squarely hit in the head’ by your comments.

      The best chance might be for leaders of small countries, like ours – and those aspiring to be small countries, to work in tandem to tell ‘the big boys and girls’ where to go and the quickest route to that point.

      The people might then have the hidden lightbulb moment to allow us to get planet earth and its occupants back on a more balanced course.

      Thank you

    43. geeo says:

      In sports news…wee Catalan la liga team Girona fc are beating the mighty Real Madrid with 8 minutes left…Barca top the league.

      Expect a demand for a Catalan team ban from the league any time soon.

      Trouble is, if they do, that creates 2 major issues.

      1. It is admitting that Catalonia IS a different country.

      2. UEFA and FIFA could suspend ALL Spanish teams from world competition for allowing politics to interfere with football.

      Ho hum…suck it up, senors…hahar !!

    44. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Wullie B @ 16:31,

      I agree with you that the devolution of power has to continue after independence. This issue is a complete straw man though – I don’t think that much anyone in the independence movement (SNP or otherwise) finds that notion at all difficult.

      It’s not just about the “islands” either, but also about rural Scotland in general, eg. the NE as you say.

      But there has been a deliberately divisive campaign run in such areas for a considerable time now by those hypocrites-in-chief, the FibDems, that “Edinburgh is as out of touch as London” and the “SNP is hell-bent on centralising power”.

      They are helped in this dastardy lie (an allowed “political” lie) by the fact that the FM just happens to have her constituency in the central belt. So she must be out of touch, “stands to reason innit”?

      They found it much harder when Alex Salmond was FM, not least because he was an assiduous local NE MSP at the time. (Maybe also because he was astute enough to largely avoid well-meaning do-goodery that can alienate people in country areas as busybody irrelevancies.)

      Reforms such as creating Police Scotland were a political (if not necessarily an organisational) mistake, because they fed into this Big Lie.

      Yet the SNP in government has already provided genuine support for the periphery, eg. with the road-equivalent tariff for the ferries. Somehow these kind of things, in the current dog-in-manger political climate, are all too easily forgotten by an uninformed and ungrateful public.

    45. Petra says:

      Yeah RJS I would have liked to have taken that back just as I hit the submit button, as I realised that any number of decent people have gone from A to B with no relevant experience and made a massively, constructive difference. And equally many who started as Union reps / Councillors / have a Degree in Politics etc have proven to be absolutely abysmal, to say the least. So yes point taken.

    46. geeo says:

      In regards to the ‘islands’, do not forget that the unionists currently in those seats (and ALL other seats, at ALL levels of government) are gone after independence.

      Unless current unionist parties operating in Scotland become fully independent Scottish political parties, those parties will no longer exist here, in the same way the SNP MP’s will no longer exist in WM.

      They could exist as independents of course, but no longer on a ‘unionist’ ticket.

      Where will current unionists in Scotland fund their new Scottish only parties from, if at all, when there is no union ?

    47. Velofello says:

      @R J Sutherland:the issue isn’t simply about work/life experience, or lack of, it’s about how the person became selected, not elected, due to the flawed dHondt voting system, and how they perform once installed. After all hasn’t Kez Dugdale only ever worked for Slab, as aide to Foulkes, and look how she has performed…..oh well.

      . I refer you back to a recent full page article on Annie Wells by the “proIndy” Sunday Herald.Now why would the Sunday Herald do that? Cat Boyd, Tommy Sheridan, and others, motivated by their political views became well known publically, and articles in newspapers of their views justified publication, Annie Who? And it must the first time in many weeks that Ruthie’s picture has featured in tiday’s issue.

    48. louis.b.argyll says:

      C’mon BELGIUM, do the decent thing and acknowledge that..

      ..The rights of all Catalonians must be respected.

      ..That Spanish constitutional arrangements are illegally (under EU & UN standards) suppressing progression and democracy.

      C’mon BELGIUM, SWEDEN, DENMARK, NORWAY et al, put your money where your mouth and models are.

      Will there STILL be the same number of EU national in 50 years?

      If so then humanity will merely have a corporate identity and culture will be dead.

      Belgium is a modern transient concept, Spain, and England, don’t understand what that means, politically, so entrenched are they in glory and historical supremacy.

    49. geeo says:

      Hmm…Girona fc 2 – 1 Real Madrid.

      Hahahaha..1st ever match between the might of Madrid and the Catalan minnows playing in the top flight of Spanish football EVER…!!!

      Generally at odds of 10-1 on the Girona win..my son likes a flutter and stuck £10 on and won £100..!!

      I told him he was wasting a tenner…((sob!))

    50. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 17:09,

      Oh the Tories will still be with us, never fret. The large estate owners and the Orange Zealots will still want their representation, and they won’t be short of funds either.

      The NorthBritLabs and the FibDems though could really be in trouble. The big English unions and the JRRT respectively would lose all reason to continue to prop them up. (That’s what they really mean by “Better Together”, don’t y’know.) Which is why they probably feel their backs are against the wall.

    51. mike cassidy says:

      So Scotland votes for independence –

      and some of the Islands then do a Catalonia.

      Naturally the Yoonionists in ruk would condemn such a secessionary move.

      Wouldn’t they?

    52. Brian Powell says:

      Funny, BBC, Guardian, NY Times with articles about pro-Union rally in Barcelona, claiming hundreds of thousands, but all photos close up, none of the streets full as far as the eye could see there were with Independence rallies.

      Craig Murray also pointing out no companies have left Catalonia, only emails of office movements.

    53. Philip Maughan says:

      I thought the Cameron quote was interesting – that the right to self-determination would be respected ‘as long as they want to stay British’ Would it be respected if they decided to be Argentinian I wonder?

    54. mike cassidy says:

      Talking of Belgium and Luxembourg.

      If Roosevelt had had his way during WW2

      Belgium would have been divided into two countries on Flemish and Walloon lines.

      One to be called Wallonia.

      The other, Flamingia, would have have been shotgun-married to Luxembourg.

      Lynne Olsen – Last Hope Island – 2017 (page 210)

    55. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Velofello @ 17:18,

      Personally the current two-ballot system isn’t one that I particularly agree with, and for that matter I don’t like party lists either, but every electoral system has its advantages and disadvantages.

      What I can’t abide, though, is the moan from some quarters (not necessarily yourself) that distils down to a grumble that people they intensely dislike can still manage to get elected somehow. As if everyone in the electorate should automatically agree with their own self-evident righteousness.

      People just have to face up to the fact that, given any reasonably-fair electoral system, there is a sufficiency of idiots who will vote for the likes of Murdo Fraser and Annie Wells. It may be intensely irritating, but them’s just the way they is.

      James Kelly of ScotGoesPop! had a very sensible commentary on that very issue some time ago.

    56. geeo says:

      @RJS.

      Even if the tories remain, they will be a tiny minority in a country they did not want to exist.

      Their rich landowners will soon be rich (less) landowners, or much poorer landowners when faced with a new tax regime.

      Anyhoo…while the world sweats about Catalonia and brexit etc…there is a scandal about to befall the palestinians in Jerusalem.

      The Israeli government are about to pass a bill called The Greater Jerusalem Bill, which officially annexes East Jerusalem in Israeli law.

      Those currently ILLEGAL settlements, housing 140,000 israeli’s, are about to become an OFFICIAL part of Jerusalem under Israeli control, which will include voting rights in Jerusalem elections, effectively making Jerusalem 70% Israeli.

      As usual, the international community will do NOTHING about this outrage.

      Story is on Al Jazeera website but for some reason i cant seem to copy the link.

    57. bob says:

      When Scotland votes to leave, they can leave, surely.

      So far, Scotland hasn’t.

    58. mike cassidy says:

      Geeo 6.04

      Al Jazeera archived.

    59. mike cassidy says:

      Al Jazeera archived now!

      http://archive.is/IRGZY

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Graham says:29 October, 2017 at 1:07 pm:

      ” … although we are obliged to contribute to the Licence tax be are effectively airbrushed out of anything thats going on in the world.”

      To be strictly accurate, Robert, we are NOT obliged to contribute to a, “Licence tax”, as we have freedom of choice to not pay the bloody thing.

      However, the truth being that as the licence fee money goes to the Treasury it is not specifically for any particular purpose.

      Even worse, though, is the real truth. The State Broadcaster – the BBC – (and only the BBC), is financed by the UK Treasury by way of an annual grant decided by Westminster. They pay that grant whether or not the total licence fee covers the cost of so doing. Please refrain from spreading Westminster false information as it is propaganda of the worst type.

      That means everyone including those who do not watch any live TV are forced to pay for the State Broadcaster whether they pay income tax or not. This because the main taxation is now via indirect taxation and thus everyone pays it.

      What anyone daft enough to pay for a TV broadcast Licence gets is only Westminster’s permission to watch TV.

      It is a Westminster myth that the licence payer finances the BBC. They don’t – they pay for the Government’s permission to receive live TV broadcasts from any source – even cable, satellite and on-line.

    61. geeo says:

      @RJS.

      The thing is, people do not vote for Annie Wells/Murdo Fraser.

      Fraser has been rejected by the electorate how many times now, 7, 8 ? Annie Wells got around 2000 votes ffs.

      The list MSP’s are decided completely at the gift of where the party puts someone on their regional lists.

      If you are placed top of the list, you are a shoe in for a job, hopelessly rejected by the electorate but shoe horned in anyway.

      Those who sit in a constituency should be exempt from the lists, and the lists themselves should be at least a wee bit based on who the electorate want to represent them.

      Lets not pretend these people (fraser and wells) are elected by the people, rather than selected by the party.

    62. geeo says:

      Thanks Mike.

      Uninstalled and re-installed the app and seems ok now.

    63. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      bob @ 18:17,

      Hardly due to an embarras de richesse of opportunity, wouldn’t you say? Following up on all those warm words after her anointment as PM about how Scotland was going to be fully consulted about everything, Theresa can hardly restrain herself from putting that question to the test and getting it behind her…

      …err, can’t she…?

    64. ALANM says:

      One thing Scotland & Catalonia have in common is that the nationalists (UK variety) are dead set against their struggle for independence. That’s good enough reason on its own for me to support them.

    65. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 18:29,

      Yeah, yeah, we’re treading over old ground here, without obvious further enlightenment.

      To state the bleedin’ obvious:

      + Parties get to choose who their candidates will be. Unless you want some kind of state commission to decide for them. Duh.

      + Voters then get to elect them, or not, as they please.

      + The Tories will choose people like Murdo & Co, and tough sh*t on what you or I think about that.

      + People will vote for them. Enough even. Unfortunate but true.

      So quit blaming “the system”. The Murdos will always be with us. =sigh=

      We can certainly improve on the present arrangement, which is unsatisfactory in several respects. Fine.

      But the basics remain, however you slice it. Some people just can’t seem to get their heads around that. As if they want a dictatorship or something instead.

    66. Dr Jim says:

      Last PMQs Theresa May said these words in an answer to Ian Blackford “The SNP come down here” I won’t even finish the rest because therein the quotes should be enough

      All bigger parts of countries or just bigger countries always behave in the same way to avoid being smaller than they are, but in doing so become small

      Being small in stature is no drawback to being a great country, Scotland could be a great big wee country
      England will only get smaller and more insular and more narrow minded because of their small attitude and if the English people allow their political system to continue by continually voting to maintain it they’ll pay a Great British price for it

      Everybody knows the Brexit vote was carried by the less well educated, conned and egged on by those who were better educated for their own reasons which tells you much about the state of English education

      They couldn’t con Scotland so that tells you about our standards, so all England could do is act like they’ve always done and BULLY! Now they send out messages of support to Spain over Catalonia, not because they care about Spain or Catalonia, their sole purpose is to send a message to Scotland

      Everybody is entitled to self determination unless it’s inconvenient and Scotland is an inconvenience just like Catalonia
      Isn’t it funny how all over the world there are little countries who don’t have anything but nobody wants those and they don’t get invited to join up with anyone bigger
      it’s just the places who have something that all the fuss is about

      Scotland like Catalonia has a lot of something

    67. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 29 October, 2017 at 1:13 pm:

      “As much as I am sympathetic to the Catalonian cause I feel I must inject a tone of caution in openly supporting their cause.”

      Balderdash!

      ” … I wouldn’t put it past them to try and claim Shetland and other regions of Scotland on the basis of a regional support to remain in the Union in the result of an overall Scottish vote to leave.”

      False information there Mike. There is little actual support in the Northern Isles for leaving Scotland either before or after independence. The Islanders aren’t daft.

      A few political figures have made such daft claims and one old eccentric claims a tiny island as his own territory, independent of Scotland, the UK or other Britain legislatures.

      There is very good reason why any sensible and sane island resident would not wish to be other than part of Scotland.

      It is enshrined in the International Law of both landlocked and sea locked Enclaves.

      I commented on that within the past week so will leave it to yourself to do your own research – that way it might stay in your conscious memory.

      Go look up the term, “Enclave”, and stop attempting to spread fake information. No sane islander would wish to live in an Enclave. BTW: I also posted that there are only, in the entire World, three land locked Enclaves – doesn’t that tell you something?

    68. Robert Peffers says:

      @geeo says: 29 October, 2017 at 2:13 pm:

      “I really wish people would stop with the nonsense about Scotland needing permission for a referendum.
      That is simply not correct.”

      Great post, Geeo. Well done.

    69. geeo says:

      You say “stop blaming the system”, yet it absolutely IS the system which lumbers the electorate with the likes of Murdo Fraser.

      Fraser could NEVER be elected to WM, as that requires people to vote for HIM.

      Once rejected, never elected, not in the SAME election, shiuld not be too difficult.

    70. David McDowell says:

      Yes, what you’ve always got to remember is that, for the imperialist elites, “self determination” only applies when it suits them.

      It never applies when they’re stealing money from nasty “separatist” types.
      And especially not if it’s going to mean the imperialist elites being left without a pot to piss in.

      Catalonia and Scotland are two clear examples of the latter.

    71. George Drever says:

      Falklands shmalklands. Would Westminster/GB sit back happily if Argentina ‘owned’ the Isle of Man, or Shetland, or any other islands immediately off our coasts?

    72. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 18:55,

      That response was just a rant, not an answer to some very obvious facts. (And no wonder, it is unanswerable.)

      After all, our favourite wee Tory linesman did get elected to WM after doing a fast runner from Holyrood. So much for that “unelectable” notion. =eyes roll skywards=

    73. AlbertaScot says:

      Lay off Murdo, folks. He’s one of those doorknobs in the category of useless idiots – to misquote Lenin.

      Li’ll Fat Ruthie is also just a sideshow.

      The two greasers you should really keep an eye on are Mountain and Tompkins.

      These geniuses have real hate in their eyes.

    74. Old Pete says:

      Anybody know who is on QT from Kilmarnock this week. I am still waiting to hear if I am part of the audience, supporting the SNP is that likely?

    75. Wullie B says:

      Correct me if I am wrong but the North Isles dont recieve the RET whereas the West Coast islands all do, tgat is the sort of thing that will continue to annoy the Northeners @ Robert J Sutherland as for the NE, complacency was allowed to go unhindered. Months before the last General Election I warned on here and on SNP pages that the SNP should be out there talking with the likes of fishermen and farmers over the stance with the EU.
      Similar voices are held up there esp in the fishing and ancillary industries

    76. Ken500 says:

      The unequal Union. The north/south divide.

      Scottish Oil & Gas sector taxed at 40% since Jan 2016 when the price had fallen. Leading to a exploration & production. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland and losing £Billions to tgecDcotyish economy. Tory illegal,high taxes.

      Fracking in the rest of the UK. Totally tax free. No corporation tax etc.

      Falklands Cost £Billions, To support 3,000 people. Sheep farmers scraping out a living. It would be better to give a few £Million each to those who want to be repatriated to Wales.

      Falklands in dispute. Argentina has an equal claim. Recognised by the UN and US. They do not fully support the British claim. They have changed hands so many times through history. Imagine fighting wars over it. People being killed. There should be talks to end the dispute.

    77. Ken500 says:

      D’Hondt – STV imposed on the electorate with absolutely no consultations. No one even knew it was happening. FPTP is the most supported electoral system. For obvious reasons. Many of the electorate do not know how these system work. Confusion reigns. Some think they have to vote for other parties etc. Giving away or diluting their vote. Letting 3rd rate rejects in. To muck up the economy causing trouble in every way they can. Useless vacant coupons. Wasting public money in every way they can. On groteque projects of no value. No one wants. To line their own pockets and the cronies with groteque remuneration. Corrupt, criminal unionist behaviour.They can’t count or read a balance sheet, Starve sick and vulnerable people.

    78. TheWasp says:

      Old Pete @ 7.21

      I am a regular on another forum where several of members tried for tickets at several of the previous QT ventures to Scotland. None of the people were picked who gave their affiliation as SNP.
      The two panellists who I have heard are on so far are Uber brexiteer Peruvian Daniel Hannan and labour liar Owen Jones. As for the rest perm any three from Merryn Somerset Webb, Fraser Nelson, Alex Massie and any other yoon loonballs they can round up.

    79. Al Dossary says:

      @George Drever,

      Apples and pears to be honest.

      The Falklands are approximately 300 miles from the coast of Argentina, compared to the Isle of Man being 66 miles or so from Heysham. The Shetlands as we all know were ultimately part of a Dowry from Denmark. The Shetlands, Orkney and Mann have been inhabited for thousands of years.

      The Falklands alternatively were uninhabited until the 1700’s according to the falkland island website. The only reason for Argentina to claim them is geographical nearness yet the island is outwith the accepted 200 nautical mile limit.

      Just wait to see the fireworks around Rockall. Oil rich and claimed by Ireland, UK and Iceland.

    80. stewartb says:

      There is in my view some simplistic stuff being written today about Shetland and its future as an independent state or continuing as part of what remains of the UK post- Scottish independence (part of the Kingdom of Greater England perhaps?).

      Let’s leave aside the likelihood or otherwise of a majority in Shetland voting to pursue this course, and consider the likely issues to be addressed in international law.

      As I raised in the previous thread regarding Cataluyna, the UN sets out certain criteria regarding who/where has inalienable rights to self-determination. This is one relevant source::

      http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/69/272&Submit=Search&Lang=E .

      Things I had never heard of come into play viz. the ‘Kirby definition’ of a ‘peoples’ (which is not just “a mere association of individuals within the State”) and the ‘statehood’ criteria of the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States (1933).

      Would Shetland and its electorate be accepted as a ‘peoples’ and a potentially viable ‘state’ under these multiple criteria?

      Then there are issues of process and sequencing. I am no lawyer, but currently its hard see how Shetland would not be part of an independent Scotland, at least in the first instance. If subsequently Shetland could find a majority and legal justification for self- determination (and that’s a big if), in order to obtain its own full EEZ it would require to be a fully independent state, i.e. not (just) part of any other state. Preferring to be part of the state of Greater England after Scottish independence would make Shetland legally an ‘enclave’ (as Mr Peffers rightly states earlier) and as such it would not have claim to a full EEZ.

      This (albeit only from Wikipedia) is notable: “An enclave is a territory, or a part of a territory, that is entirely surrounded by the territory of one other state. Territorial waters have the same sovereign attributes as land, and enclaves may therefore exist within territorial waters.”

      In this instance, Shetland as part of Greater England would be an enclave sitting within the territorial waters of an independent Scottish state. The actual EEZ of the Scottish state would be essentially unaffected.

      Of course, as others have indicated, the issue of Shetland (and other islands’) independence is typically raised by British Nationalists who wish (simply) to undermine the case for Scotland’s independence.

      The present Scottish Government and its successors post-independence have a duty to, and of course would be prudent to, look after the social, economic and environmental interests of all parts of the country, including concern for more remote and/or fragile communities. Much is already being done by the SG, much more can be.

      Personally, I think two immediate policy issues are relevant here: (i) the upcoming reform of Local Government in Scotland – a big opportunity for creative, radical change (but will the SNP take up the opportunities?); and (ii) more speculatively, the feasibility and attractiveness of embarking NOW on drafting a sub-state constitution for Scotland AS IT IS at this time i.e. within the scope of the powers the Scottish Parliament already possesses – and to do so through a genuine consultative, community engagement process. We would build from this after independence.

      This could set out clearly, in one document, the Scottish Parliament’s and Government’s formal commitment to the rights and needs of all communities and people in Scotland, including our remote and fragile areas. And yes it would get up the noses of, and receive challenge from, the Westminster establishment – candidly, so much the better!

    81. louis.b.argyll says:

      So basically, in Northern Ireland.

      The DUP is trying to get Sinn Fein to..

      Shut up about past corruption and current inequality and ‘let’s share a Billion quid’s worth of PFI debt.’

      Wonder who’s raison d’être will break first.

      Wonder which side of the divide is most materialistic.

    82. Legerwood says:

      Wullie B says:
      29 October, 2017 at 7:24 pm
      Correct me if I am wrong but the North Isles dont recieve the RET whereas the West Coast islands all do, tgat is the sort of thing that will continue to annoy the Northeners
      ………………

      RET starts 2018 For Orkney and Shetland.

    83. Ian McCubbin says:

      This so called elite of UK are part of an international elite in thinking at least.
      There’s is the propaganda of prending with elequent words that all of us have rights to freedom self determination and democracy. However all of these must agre with what elites want and are willing to a?low.
      So Catalonia, Scotland you may not have what your people want until we see a world change to community politics after we abandon elites.
      A simple view of what is a very complex issue.

    84. Velofello says:

      @Albertascot: My recollection is tha Tomkins secured his MSP sinecure with a comparable number of votes as Wells, and 10,000 or so behind the winner.

      Sinecure: a position that requires little or no work, but usually yields profit or honour.

      Sinecure, now there’s a thought. We could have three categories of MSPs – Constituancy, then List, for those that secured say, within 50% of the Constuancy MSP’s vote, and then Sinecure MSPs for the likes of Frazer and Wells who collected just a dribble of votes. Unkind? I suppose, but then witnessing Frazer collecting thousands upon thousands of income, never been elected, and spouting his stupidities is unfair to us the electorate.

    85. ian murray says:

      For voting perhaps list MPs should be determined by the highest percentage of votes.
      Got the cat on a leash and I see pigeons in that coop, to do, to do, what to do.

    86. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mike at 1.13

      Scotland is a recognised entity which in all legal aspects includes Orkney and Shetland. To try separate these from any settlement would be legally very complicated and would probably require a referendum. If they want to go they of course have the right to go but they legally become an enclave inside Scottish territorial waters if they opt to do so.

      There is not a shred of evidence to suggest the Shetlanders or Orcadians wan to join England if they leave Scotland.

    87. geeo says:

      @RJS 7.10.

      Hmm…did the wee fanny linesman get elected to WM AFTER Scotland became independent, since that was the timeline to my point ?

      Now i remember why i usually ignore you…bye bye.

    88. @Robert Peffers

      `they pay for the Government’s permission to receive live TV broadcasts from any source – even cable, satellite and on-line.`

      no longer only `live broadcasts` you need a license to watch BBC i player which is a catch up channel and not `live`,

      i think it is only BBC catch up that requires the license, the whole thing was rushed through without much thought,hard to believe from such a competent civil service/Gov.

    89. Rock says:

      geeo,

      “I really wish people would stop with the nonsense about Scotland needing permission for a referendum.

      That is simply not correct.

      The section 30 order is ABSOLUTELY NOT ‘permission’.

      If we are refused a S30 order, then we simply hold a referendum anyway. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO legal barrier to us doing so.”

      I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa and hold an “illegal” referendum without her permission.

      We are Scots and eternally “British” (ask Robert Peffers), not Catalonians, we do things the “British” way.

    90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 21:01,

      Avoid the staringly-obvious fundamental issue with your precious wee-tinkerings argument, get in a huff and take your wee ball to play elsewhere.

      Oooh, that will really convince.

      Ignore me as you please, you’ll just be doing me (and probably a whole lot of others as well) a favour.

    91. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “O/T

      The Sunday Herald has published an article today entitled “Holyrood hit by claims of sexual harassment.”

      The claims come from Scotland’s leading Human Rights lawyer Aamer Anwar who says women at all levels have been sexually harassed and that the perpetrators should be running scared.”

      Rock (30th April 2016 – Generation and stimulation):

      “- the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.”

    92. Welsh Sion says:

      According to MSM.

      Scotland, Wales and Catalonia – populated by separatists.
      Separatists – bad.
      Separating from the centralising state capital – bad.

      _______

      England, Spain – populated by patriots.
      Patriots – good.
      Patriots centralising power in the state capital – good.

    93. Macart says:

      This won’t end well.

      https://archive.is/mh7AN

    94. Rock says:

      geeo,

      “You say “stop blaming the system”, yet it absolutely IS the system which lumbers the electorate with the likes of Murdo Fraser.

      Fraser could NEVER be elected to WM, as that requires people to vote for HIM.

      Once rejected, never elected, not in the SAME election, shiuld not be too difficult.”

      The system you are talking about is the Proportional Representation system used for the Scottish parliament.

      As opposed to the First Past The Post system used for the UK parliament which gave us the Thatcher and Blair “tsunamis”.

      I am 100% in favour of Proportional Representation.

      What about you?

    95. Lenny Hartley says:

      Willie B , RET is nothing more than a subsidy, based on miles travelled, the Northern Islesferry routes are already subsidised and it is claimed by more than what RET would give. I do not know the figures, it will be interesting to see if there is a reduction opinion fares when RET is introduced on those routes next year.
      http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2015/10/26/war-of-words-over-ferry-subsidies

    96. geeo says:

      You have to marvel at those who think D’Honte is the ONLY PR system of voting.

      It is also a bit rich when unionists claim to support PR at Holyrood but NEVER shout about wanting it at WM.

      Double standards writ large.

      Says a lot about them, none of it good.

    97. Paula Rose says:

      Read a great review of this place in the Sunday Herald today – sounds well worth a visit…
      http://www.facebook.com/bastapizzabar/

    98. Welsh Sion says:

      Old Pete says:
      29 October, 2017 at 7:21 pm

      Anybody know who is on QT from Kilmarnock this week. I am still waiting to hear if I am part of the audience, supporting the SNP is that likely?

      _______

      For what it’s worth, I attended a QT in Luton some 3 years ago (just down the road from me) and was invited with all other attendees to submit 2 written questions to Dimbleybore and his research team (not the panel) before the show. I had submitted my application along with info I was an SNP Member (probably the only one in the audience.

      The evening involved some canapes and some wine followed by a few off-colour jokes by Dimbleybore about bankers (subsidised by TV Licence payers, no doubt), followed by a mock debate – to test the mics – and then the main event. Neither of my questions were used – quelle surprise ! – but I understand the independent production company keep your details for 3 years after processing your request to be an audience member.

      QT, of course is a standing joke with Unionist politicians and their ex-Fleet Street chums being given free rein to spout all sorts of claptrap. Whilst Dimbleybore (who recall refuse to relocate to Glasgow) regularly interrupting and speaking anyone from Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

      And don’t forget the recent hoo-ha involving that alleged independent researcher associated with the programme (Alison Something) who was outed as a poster of Britain First materials on her Facebook account.

      I’d therefore speak from experience and say you’re not missing much – outside the free wine and canapes – if you ever get invited on to a QT studio audience.

      All the best,

    99. geeo says:

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

      PR is a multi faceted idea.

      For the sake of the points made earlier regarding useless clowns being elected no matter how often they are utterly rejected (aye you, Murdo Fraser) by the electorate.

      ……..
      Open list

      In an open list, voters may vote, depending on the model, for one person, or for two, or indicate their order of preference within the list. These votes sometimes rearrange the order of names on the party’s list and thus which of its candidates are elected.
      Nevertheless, the number of candidates elected from the list is determined by the number of votes the list receives.
      ……….

      Main article: Localized list

      In a local list system, parties divide their candidates in single member-like constituencies, which are ranked inside each general party list depending by their percentages.
      This method allows electors to judge every single candidate as in a FPTP system.
      … ….

      There you go, 2 better systems than the ridiculous system fobbed upon us.

    100. Alex Clark says:

      Just dropping in a mention for anyone who finds them selves in the Dundee area a week on Sat 11th Nov.

      A number of friends of Wings are meeting up in Jolly’s Broughty Ferry that evening for a drink or two and a chat or even a disagreement 🙂

      Feel free to drop in, there will be friendly faces around.

    101. geeo says:

      @alex clark.

      Maybe Rock will attend and put his compelling case for the union ?

    102. Welsh Sion says:

      FAO: Old Pete

      Further info on QT from Kilmarnock this coming week, featuring the one and only Kezza Dudfail …

      ___________

      02/11/2017
      Question Time
      David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Kilmarnock. The panel includes former Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale and the founder and chairman of Stagecoach Brian Souter.

    103. Alex Clark says:

      @geeo

      Rock was personally invited to a night out yonks ago but said Nah!

    104. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Robert Peffers
      @ Mike
      @ David McEwan Hill

      Re. “Enclaves”

      “Go look up the term, “Enclave”, and stop attempting to spread fake information. No sane islander would wish to live in an Enclave. BTW: I also posted that there are only, in the entire World, three land locked Enclaves – doesn’t that tell you something?”

      This should keep you all happy as I happen to know this/these “enclave(s) personally having been there twice. They are not too far away from me. Apart from the garages there is no oil so more harmony all round. 😉

      http://www.amusingplanet.com/2012/11/the-curious-case-of-baarle-nassau-and.html

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle

    105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I would say that those who favour some kind of PR electoral system (both for Holyrood and that decrepit old ruin down in London) are more aware than anyone of alternatives to the current AMS voting system (of which the d’Hondt method – note spelling – is a somewhat incidental part).

      Not least since our present system was graciously bequeathed to us with the specific intent of keeping those vile seps at bay.

      (Except NorthBritLab then totally lost the plot and the FibDems funked their supposed “balance” role. Oops.)

      I would hope that sooner or later we will adopt something better that will also, as a welcome by-product, eliminate the childish name-calling of so-called “unelected” MSPs. (Which not so very long ago were mostly SNP, in fact.)

      But it is a fools’ errand to cast around for some ideal system that somehow won’t burp up the occasional Murdo Fraser and Annie Wells. Life ain’t that perfectable. Alas.

    106. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      I’ll accept that “you” are consistent. Tonight, you typed, at 9:26 pm,

      “I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa and hold an “illegal” referendum without her permission.”

      I won’t bother utilising your inbuilt habit of pasting stuff – I’ll merely refer you to the comment I posted last night at 10:18pm on page 2 of the “Scottish politics in numbers” topic.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/scottish-politics-in-numbers/comment-page-2/#comment-2312430

      What I surmised there – your post tonight confirms that you are are actually a bot.

    107. Legerwood says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 9.48pm

      Tavish Scott was the Transport Minister in the Scottish Executive who presided over a doubling in the subsidy for the northern isles ferries. From around £30 plus million to £78 million

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/5155466.stm

      The RET will reduce fares and do away with the previous system whereby islanders paid a lower fare than non-islanders.

      https://www.orcadian.co.uk/northern-isles-ferry-fares-cut-2018/

      However, there were some reports that islanders were still not satisfied because the cost of cabins on the Aberdeen – Shetland route would not apparently be reduced.

    108. Alex Clark says:

      I;ve been following the headlines on Catalonia today on “Newsnow” that gives you then as they are put on the internet.

      Anyway here’s what you can still see even from the last few hours:

      Thousands march in Barcelona for unity 9News 20:10

      Tens of thousands show love for Spain on streets of Barcelona The Independent 20:09

      Hundreds Of Thousands Take To Barcelona Streets Against Catalan Independence NPR 21:00

      So who to believe?

      None of them, I doubt any of the reporters were even there as they all feed off each other and then put their own slant on it.

      Fake news indeed!

    109. geeo says:

      @alex..what a surprise…i can hardly credit it..!!

      Never mind.

      Anyhoo…on the subject of rights to remain ‘british’..

      I asked a unionist pal of a pal today, do you believe in the falkanders right to remain ‘british’?

      “Of course, was the reply, they must get the choice’

      Ok, said I, so how about the gibraltans ?

      “Yup…obviously, they are british as well”.

      Hmm…said I, so..do you believe in the rights of the Catalans to CHOOSE to be an independent people?

      “Oh no…thats different, they are Spanish”.

      Okaay…Really, but what if they DO NOT WANT to be Spanish anymore ?

      “Thats tough, Spains constitution means they are Spanish, its in black and white”.

      Ah ha..so, are you aware that that same Spanish constitution states that Gibraltar is SPANISH forever ?

      “Thats different”

      How is it different ?

      “Just is”

      But how EXACTLY can you fully accept one part of the Spanish constitution over another, that is clearly driven by an agenda to suit your given argument ?

      “Eh”?

      Never mind.

    110. Robert Peffers says:

      @Wullie B says: 29 October, 2017 at 7:24 pm:

      “Correct me if I am wrong but the North Isles dont recieve the RET whereas the West Coast islands all do

      o.k. Wullie.B – I’ll correct you.

      The scheme had to start somewhere and every place cannot be first.

      Take your SNP BAAAAAAD! Bullshit and shove it where it won’t pollute the atmosphere.

      Typically the Orkney LibDem MSP, Liam McArthur had this to say, “It has been a long time coming but shows the importance of standing up for what’s right and not taking no for an answer.”

      As if it were all done by the LibDems and not by the SG. From the start the scheme was planned to be rolled out. You do not launch an untried scheme until it has been trialled and tested and assessed.

      Could that numptie be any more ungracious?

    111. Velofello says:

      Can we discuss motorcycles, or music, or even sexual experiences whilst on duty on nuclear armed submarines. Some levity?

      We have a Foreign Secretary mumbling Kipling in a temple,. We have an incoherent Prime Minister, who “lost” the files on paedofiles Sex and drugs on patrol in armed nuclear submarines. Just how much do we need to have placed before us to realise we really really need to leave the UK?

    112. Old Pete says:

      Welsh Sion guess l am unlikely to be on the QT audience then. Surely there has to be some SNP representative on the panel in Kilmarnock, surely ?

    113. Alex Clark says:

      From the Guardian letters page. At least it’s something.

      We, the undersigned, register our opposition to the Spanish government of Mariano Rajoy in implementing article 155 of the Spanish constitution, following the Catalan parliament’s declaration of independence.

      The actions of the Spanish government in sending in civil guards and national police to smash their way into polling stations, to seize ballot boxes and attack voters in an effort to stop the 1 October Catalan referendum; its jailing of Jordi Sánchez, the president of the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), and Jordi Cuixart, the president of Òmnium Cultural, on charges of sedition; and its decision to implement article 155 of the Spanish constitution revoking Catalonia’s statute of autonomy, represents the most serious attack on democracy in western Europe in recent years. Catalan language media outlets are threatened with closure and websites shut down.

      For Catalans this is the most serious attack on their rights since the death of General Franco in 1975. The actions of the Spanish state have awoken bitter memories of his dictatorship when the Catalan language was banned in public and from use in places of education.

      Friends of Catalonia has been formed to help defend Catalan democracy and civil rights. We are concerned that following the implementation of article 155, the Spanish government will intensify its repressive measures. We therefore demand that the British government and the EU seek immediate assurances that legal measures will not be used to punish any organisation or individual for activities in connection with the referendum.

      We have different positions on whether Catalonia should be independent but believe that is a matter for the Catalans to decide democratically and peacefully.

      We abhor the silence of both the British government and the EU on this attack on Catalonia’s democracy.

      We will work closely with the Catalan National Assembly (England) and Catalans UK, the two main organisations among the Catalan community here, and help build their protests and activities in support of democracy in Catalonia.
      Professor David Whyte University of Liverpool, Chris Bambery Author of A People’s History of Scotland and co-author of Catalonia Reborn (March 2018), Professor Gilbert Achcar Soas, University of London, Tariq Ali Writer and broadcaster, Professor David Miller University of Bath, Dr Feyzi Ismail Soas, Professor Gregor Gall University of Bradford, Lindsey German Convenor, Stop the War Coalition (personal capacity), Dr Andrew Dowling Author of The Rise of Catalan Independence: Spain’s Territorial Crisis, Professor Bill Bowring Birkbeck College, University of London, Dr John Rees Author of The Leveller Revolution, Russell Mclean Convenor, London Scottish National Party branch (personal capacity)

      https://archive.is/dvg5p

    114. TheWasp says:

      Old Pete @ 10.57

      Alec Salmond was on last week, quota for three months filled, probably be Coburn for balance

    115. Fireproofjim says:

      Alex Clark@10.37
      The TV pictures from the air in Barcelona certainly showed an awfy lot of Madrid supporters.
      Familiar as I am with exiting football crowds there were certainly many tens of thousands. Hundreds of thousands? Difficuit to say.
      I’ll say this for Catalonians of both persuasions, they certainly know how to get their people out. I wish Scots could be mobilised in such numbers for Independence. Maybe something to do with hot blooded Latin temperament.

    116. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “Hi Rock.

      I’ll accept that “you” are consistent.”

      So are you, despite denying it:

      Brian Doonthetoon (28th October – “Scottish politics in numbers”):

      “Hi Rock.

      Back in the day, when I read EVERY comment BTL, I even read yours.”

      Rock:

      “You obviously still do.”

    117. Old Pete says:

      BBC suck, so Wasp you could be right. But don’t they often try to hound an SNP representative to show how Scotland hates the “vile SNP separatists” lying bastards that Dimbledumb and his BBC crew are!

    118. Rock says:

      geeo,

      “Maybe Rock will attend and put his compelling case for the union ?”

      Usual distraction to avoid debating the point when you have been left speechless:

      I am 100% in favour of Proportional Representation.

      What about you?

    119. Simon Curran says:

      The Spanish government objects to Catalonian aspirations as Catalonia would be more prosperous outside the existing arrangements. Do you think that for some “No” voters the penny might finally, eventually drop? Big state doesn’t want break away as big state would lose out financially and be diminished in terms of self image / international reputation.

    120. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Take your SNP BAAAAAAD! Bullshit and shove it where it won’t pollute the atmosphere.”

      Robert Peffers (29th October – “Scottish politics in numbers”):

      “@Proud Cybernat says: 28 October, 2017 at 3:26 pm:

      “If such a very good test question can be devised, perhaps it might be possible that we could Crowd Fund a petition to the Court of Session / Supreme Court. And hopefully then get this constitutional dog’s breakfast decided once and for all.
      Yupffurrit?”

      I do not believe I am qualified to do such a thing, Proud Cybernat. It really needs a trained and qualified legal person.”

      Rock:

      “I knew your “expertise” on all Scottish constitutional matters was as pretendy as your pretendy “sovereignty”.

      Maybe you should now start respecting the views of other posters and stop calling them “numpties” simply because they have a different opinion from you.”

    121. Alex Clark says:

      @Fireproofjim

      I’m not disputing whether it was thousands, 10’s of thousands or hundreds of thousands.

      I’m asking who you can trust? If that’s the only newspaper you buy then likelihood is you will believe their version.

      You don’t need to believe any version other than your own either by witnessing what you saw yourself or weighing up what you gather from the internet. I choose to do the latter.

    122. Derek Henry says:

      So if Shetland went alone what currency would they use ?

      Considering oil gets sold in $’s. They have a population of 23 thousand.

      There’s a case of dutch disease if ever there was one and a pint of beer costing £40.

    123. Petra says:

      There’s talk on here of the island’s potentially demanding their Independence, as there’s talk south of the border of the north of England preferring to be part of Scotland rather than England. With Brexit and a forthcoming Indyref2 who knows what will happen? Wee England could eventually take on our mantle of constituting one third of the UK land mass. And what on earth would the BBC weather site do then with their map?

      ……………………

      I’ve been reading through the Sunday Herald. One great article after another. I’ve just finished reading “Britain’s Bitter Legacy” which relates to the Palestinian situation. Left as usual with steam coming out of my ears. It’s a double page spread so will just give the gist of it.

      ‘Theresa May and Netanyahu will sit down on Tuesday night with 150 VIP guests to a lavish dinner at a central London venue (hosted by the current Lords Rothschild and Balfour). All of them will be there to celebrate a document that although only 67 words long changed the course of history. That document written in 1917 was a letter (Balfour Declaration) from British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Lionel Walter Rothschild leader of the British Jewish community at that time.

      The words marked a historic promise that the British Government would use it’s “best endeavours” to facilitate the “establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, but it’s worth mentioning that the second part protecting the Arabs has never been fulfilled, as pointed out by Joanna Cherry during a recent debate…………

      As the Jewish historian Avi Shlaim has said it was the moment that Britain chose to recognise the right to national self-determination for the Jewish people but to deny it to the Arab people………

      Jewish writer, Arthur Koestler, pointed out that “there was one nation solemnly promising another nation the land of a third nation.”…..

      It’s unlikely that the plight of millions of Palestinians will remotely cross the minds of Theresa May and their guests as they sit down to their celebratory dinner this week.

      How many of those dining will know that at times some 80% of Gaza’s Palestininan population has depended on humanitarian aid for their basic daily food? The UN (and others) highlight figures that show that some one million children are suffering from ‘unliveable’ conditions, many so traumatised they are unable to sleep, study or play. Save the Children state that more than 740 schools have no electricity and most families are struggling to function with 2 to 4 hours of electricity daily. The UN estimates that more than 300,000 children are in need of psych-social support after years of living under an Israeli military and economic blockade. Aid agencies highlight that 60% of the sea around the coastal strip is contaminated with untreated sewage and over 90% of water sources are too contaminated for human consumption. A recent UN report outlines that the living conditions for those 2 million people in the Palestinian enclave are deteriorating “further and faster” than the prediction made in 2012 that the enclave would become “unliveable” by 2020….

      May has rebuffed the UK issuing an apology to the Palestinians over the Balfour memo and has stated that, “we are proud of our role in creating the State of Israel. Establishing a homeland for the Jewish people in the land to which they had such strong historical and religious ties was the right and moral thing to do, particularly against the background of centuries of persecution.”…..

      The Palestinians commemorate, today, the UN General Assembly Resolution 181 which recommended in 1947 the partition of Palestine giving rise to the State of Israel. Israeli writer and historian Ilan Pappe pointed out “the seeds were sown in 1917, reaped in 1947 and have poisoned the country ever since.”

      I don’t know how the vicar’s daughter can sleep at night and not choke on her food through the day. More than anything I can’t understand why anyone in their right mind would want to remain part of this Union, other than of course people who aren’t aware of what has been / is going on.

      Waken up Scots and help us to get to h*ll out of this nightmare of a Union, ASAP.

    124. stewartb says:

      Alex Clark @ 11:21 pm

      You state: “I’m asking who you can trust? ….”

      See this from the Columbia Journalism Review regarding El Pais – so-called “Spain’s paper of record”. (https://www.cjr.org/business_of_news/catalonia-independence-el-pais-spain.php )

      (El Pais’ Managing Editor, David): “Alandete agreed that Spain’s leading newspaper had positioned itself as a strong voice against the Catalan secession—but said the paper’s reporters are defending the Spanish constitution, not towing a government line. “El Pais is an institution in Spain, and an institution that is fundamental for Spanish democracy,” Alandete says. “We have a position on breaking up the state. We do not take the stance [that there is] a right to self determination or the freedom to choose [to secede].”

      Seems familiar but at least he’s being straight about what a reader can expect from his newspaper i.e. not balance, not objectivity, always the unionist position.

    125. geeo says:

      I do not debate with people who constantly post the same repetitive garbage time after time, which has been debunked every time, a hundred times.

      Come to the Elwyn pub in Grangemouth, Rock, i will buy you a pint and lets see if you are a good debator away from your copy/paste technique.

      Do so or shut the fuck up.

      Yes or no ?

    126. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T has anybody read up on the claims of Gordon Bowdon 788/790 Finchley Road and if so do you think he is onto something or is it just conspiracy theory Jackie Bailies?

    127. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Nah, Alox.

      It sooms, on Sunday ovonings, my commonts which contain moro than ono incidont of tho fifth lottor of tho alphabot, just dissapoar into tho othor so I’vo dovisod this workaround.

    128. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Apologies – my last comment was intended for ‘off-topic’. (Was in the wrong tab.)

      Hi geeo at 11:42 pm.

      You typed,

      “I do not debate with people who constantly post the same repetitive garbage time after time, which has been debunked every time, a hundred times.”

      See my post at 10:33pm tonight. The character to which you refer is actually a bot.

    129. geeo says:

      Indood ho may bo, Brian..

    130. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Woll dono, gooo!

      You had mo LOLing whon I road your last commont. Welcomo to ‘off-topic’.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic

    131. Petra says:

      You’ll all be relieved to hear, lol, that nine sailors from HMS Vigilant, nuclear missile submarine, based at Faslane have been dismissed from the RN after failing a drug test for cocaine (the Sunday Herald).

      Wee Farron has now ordered that all UK submarine crews be tested for drugs (I thought that had to be done after the last drugs / drink fatal shooting fiasco?) and given First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Philip Jones a roasting.

      There’ll soon be no one left to man their ships / subs between one thing and another saving us over £200 billion.

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Petra –

      Good on ye for highlighting the Balfour ‘celebrations’. Rank stuff altogether.

      You’ll know this already, and you’ll also have seen me posting this analogy before, but IMO it remains one of the most persuasive when ‘explaining’ the situation to fellow Scots…

      The Gaza ‘strip’ is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet. According to Wiki the population will be 2.1 million by 2020 so, right now? it’s probably very close to 2 million. In order to replicate that density somewhere in Scotland, all of our cities and major towns would have to be evacuated, the populations sent to, say, the Isle of Arran. Even then, a further 100,000 citizens would have to be drawn from rural communities and packed onto the island to get the concentration of bodies to the same level.

      And even then…it would have to be adjusted again because Gaza is 20% smaller than the Isle of Arran.

      Almost half of the population of Scotland crammed onto a popular holiday destination which can be cycled around in a day…

      🙁

    133. Still Positive says:

      Petra @ 12.36

      Happy to hear that as I live quite close to Faslane and have been worrying about an accident there for most of my adult life. I was 67 last month and this has been worrying me in West Dunbartonshire since I was in my early 20s.

    134. geeo says:

      Holy feck !!

      Just watched Sunday SNP BAD with Brewer…utterly desperate stuff trying to get Shona Robison to say NHS Scotland is shite and has seen a drop in real term funding …”hey shona..if you dont count a&e funding, social care funding, prescription charge funding and several other criteria, do you agree you are shite ?

      Then at the end, 2 shreeking harpies giving it “SNP/SNHS utter rubbish”.

      There are probably more pro indy folk watching this shite, so we know what pish they are talking, than no/soft no, voters.

      Scots do not generally like folk denigrating our NHS, several recent election results bear that out.

    135. William Wallace says:

      @ Geeo

      If yir gonna watch Brewer then just smash yir tele iy 😉

      Ignorance is bliss 🙂

      Sorry Petra.

      Like an interesting Lab study
      on the (wait fir it) Petra dish 😉
      Eh’m an international beamer again
      cause eh am getting pished 😉

    136. Les Wilson says:

      GMs this morning pushing the division in Catalonia, how BBC.
      Divide and rule, a fav ploy for our corrupt state propagandist.

    137. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      test

    138. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      test 2

    139. Ken500 says:

      Brewer is just a liar. An absolute disgrace. Do not watch or listen to it. Just the Parliamentary Channel to see what the corrupt criminals are doing. The BBC is a criminal organisation. Total abuse and waste of public money. The Westminster propaganda division. An absolute disgrace in Scotland. Not impartial, incompetent ignoramouses. Breaking the Law with impunity. They owe their position to Labour Mafia patronage.

      Gordon Brown is a disgrace. An absolute criminal. Killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Ruining the world economy. A useless incompetent ignoramouses They should have been put in jail. They have absolutely no self awareness. Delusional with delusions of grandeur. Egotistical and out of touch, £Trns of debt. Fifty years of filthy, lying Labour. Gordon Brown had £Billions of advice and totally ignored it. There is absolutely no excuse. Now looking for sympathy to try and make more tax evaded money. Killing sick and vulnerable people. Illegally wasting £Trns. They are an absolute disgrace. Cheating, lying criminals.

    140. Nana says:

      Sorry if any of the following have already been posted, I’ve not had time to read the thread

      Links

      https://www.snp.org/7_truly_terrifying_things_the_conservative_party_are_doing_in_government

      http://indyref2.scot/shitty-journalism

      October has been a “surprisingly good month” for the North Sea oil
      http://archive.is/fja0o

      We had unrestricted access to @MonklandsHosp in Scotland to see how they’ve hit A&E targets – something Wales hasn’t done for years.
      Video here
      https://twitter.com/ITVWales/status/923963142799069191

    141. Nana says:

      http://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_27th_october_2017

      LISTEN NOW: featuring @LeanneWood, @Maggie4Scotland, @andywightman, @Christia_Allard, @hagitofran & @markmclay1985
      https://twitter.com/_WorldThisWeek/status/923893141752680448#

      We examined Scotland’s unique health care system and how the rest of the UK might be able to learn from it
      https://twitter.com/NuffieldTrust/status/924322874940207104

      Just FYI Scotland, targeted disinformation campaigns are live, are being aimed at you, and so far are having the desired effect.
      https://twitter.com/J_amesp/status/923980183996116992

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/taking-spanish-government-law

    142. Nana says:

      https://waitingfortax.com/2017/10/27/something-is-very-wrong-at-hmrc/

      Brexit: preserving the fantasy
      http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86649

      Theresa May’s £1bn for Northern Ireland on hold as talks falter
      https://www.ft.com/content/8f12afca-bb26-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

      Trump, Assange, Bannon, Farage… bound together in an unholy alliance
      http://archive.is/WE8Ji

    143. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Yeah posted a link to the FT piece last night. A massive case of who knew(?) on the NI deal.

      Question being, is it a dig in the ribs for an over confident DUP, an open act of reneging on a pledge, a huge administrative/legal screw up? A mixture of all of the above?

      Regardless, I’m guessing it won’t end well.

    144. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart. I’m guessing it’s a legal issue but then again the DUP could be playing with the Tories.

      http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/dup-we-will-not-strike-bad-talks-deal-to-meet-a-deadline-1-8220037

      Donaldson rejects claim that DUP’s £1bn from Tories is under threat
      http://archive.is/XBuqX

      http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/uk-decent-pension-obligations-1-5254811

      Deficit hangs over Hammond: Chancellor facing new £20bn black hole says IFS
      http://archive.is/mV5LX

    145. Ken500 says:

      The SNHS has £12.9Billion of funding. 43% of the whole Scottish (Westminster depleted budget) Up from 38%. The measures the Scottish Gov could put in place to aid health and cut SNHS budget are denied by Westminster. A tax on cheap alcohol. A sugar tax to reduce sugar in processed foods etc. Minimum pricing has taken 5 years because of the tax evading Tory Whisky Association. Decision in up to 4 months. Cost £5Billion++.

      The Scottish Gov have to and do mitigate Westminster cuts. Despite having the Scottish Gov budget illegally cut. The total mismanagement of the Scottish economy by Westminster, by people not voted for in Scotland.

      Westminster cut NHS £4Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. £20Billion cuts. Cut welfare £18Billion. Cut Education £6Billion a year. (Total £42Billion). Illegally Starving and killing vulnerable people. Causing the worse migration crisis since 11WW. Ruining the world economy.

      Spending £40Billion +++ a year on Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident and Heathrow. A total waste of money. To line the Tories and their cronies pocket. There cheaper, more credible cost affective alternatives. The Tory/Unionists incompetent and utter total ignoramouses. Not fit for public office.

      Brexit the Tories are ruining the world economy. Appalling lowlives.

      Westminster should be drink and drug tested. Breaking the Law with impunity.

    146. heedtracker says:

      Les Wilson says:
      30 October, 2017 at 7:51 am
      GMs this morning pushing the division in Catalonia, how BBC.
      Divide and rule, a fav ploy for our corrupt state propagandist.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09bxk3q

      Last night this crew of fascists ended their headline kickoff on Catalonia with, “huge crowds protest in Barcelona, in a show of force.”

      You can feel Beeb gimp longing for civil war in 21st century Spain. They may get one too and all of it will used to terrorise Scotland.

      Too much? from just that one beeb gimp national news “show of force” word choice, is it just a clusterfcuk of bbc neo fascism at the top of a right wing giant media corp? We’re certainly in for a very bumpy ride from the beeb gimp network, ref2.

    147. Nana says:

      http://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_27th_october_2017

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/taking-spanish-government-law

      LISTEN NOW: featuring @LeanneWood, @Maggie4Scotland, @andywightman, @Christia_Allard, @hagitofran & @markmclay1985
      https://twitter.com/_WorldThisWeek/status/923893141752680448

      There’s a couple more papers here, including the pensions one I posted last week
      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hm-treasury-analysis-the-immediate-economic-impact-of-leaving-the-eu

    148. heedtracker says:

      Crash Gordo says he lost the election because he wasnt touchy feely enough.

      Beeb gimp network’s read his book though,

      “He also uses the book – to be published next month – to take a swipe at social media, saying: “During my time as an MP I never mastered the capacity to leave a good impression or sculpt my public image in 140 characters.
      “Now no politician can succeed without mastering social media – and yet, in it, the prime minister becomes one among millions of voices competing to be heard.”

      Tell that to Orange Hitler but it should be great to read about how Crash went round Scotland 2014, terrifying the life out of Scots pensioners.

    149. call me dave says:

      Aye Gordon…..the quiet man. 🙂

    150. Breeks says:

      I’m sure there must be a PhD or two to be written comparing Scotland with Catalonia, and attitudes towards Indy.

      When they go to the streets, for or against Independence, it’s in their hundreds of thousands. In Scotland, we could easily knock a “0” off that, and occasionally knock two. Better Together could even dispense with all the zeros if I remember correctly.

      But for all that, I don’t actually believe we are the weaker for it, nor, apart from some good pictures maybe, would we be any stronger for having the ability to put 300k of us on the street.

      I think there is something in our heads; a “fast-track” imagination that sees a scuffle in the street escalating into a full scale civil war that lasts for decades and is every bit as protracted as Northern Ireland. Maybe it’s because we simply don’t want inflammatory Northern Irish type rhetoric and sectarianism taking root here, so every step on that pathway to nightmare is resisted. You don’t counter an Orange March by having a bigger and louder Anti-Orange March. That simply escalates the situation.

      Are we smarter than the Catalans then? No. I’d find that very hard to believe.

      Is it inner confidence in our constitutional sovereignty? Certainly not. I think we’d be alarmed by how many Scots don’t even know we are meant to be a sovereign people.

      Is it the media? It seems like whenever a Scottish enterprise gathers momentum, be it Independence, a sporting event, qualifying for a tournament, and not just football, rugby is the same, whether it’s commerce, technological, or in any way lifting of Scotland’s morale and confidence, along comes the UK media to slash the tyres.

      It’s it their scheduling, murders and fitba. Or no fitba, you’re too crap to have your international matches even screened. It’s in their vocabulary; separatism is a power word for them, because they cannot bring themselves to say independence.Its the language, whenever a Scots brogue is heard, he’s either a thick as mince knuckle dagger or a violent type that plays the baddie. If he’s neither of those, then he’s a domesticated wall crawler like Neil Oliver, a safe pair of Unionist hands who can be relied upon to hold the line for BritNat Propaganda.

      How I ache for the day when the population of Scotland finally gets it right and connects properly with its inalienable Constitutional Sovereignty. That sovereignty, our Scottish Sovereignty, will be the spit upon which Unionism is at long last roasted to perfection.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

      It’s just a Wiki definition of sovereignty, but I’d encourage folks to read it.

      Our sovereignty is the strongest constitutional resource we have, but we have yet to use it. I just hope with every fibre that somewhere out of the way, in some remote sea loch, unseen by prying eyes, there is a small team of crack Scottish Scientists who have been working hard completing sea trials for Scottish Sovereignty, and are nearly ready for the successful prototype to be pressed into service.

      Speed the day when Donald Tusk and Michel Barnier recognise the United Kingdom is comprised of two interlocutors. That must happen, and I suggest it has to happen soon.

    151. heedtracker says:

      Trying to obey good old Rock and not read the Graun for coffee time but Graun tories are such a hoot on their Scotland region.

      Nicola Sturgeon and her health minister, Shona Robison. Photograph: Andrew Milligan/PA

      even caused Kevin MacKenna’s heart attack. Is there anything, anything at all tory britnat’s wont use to bring down SNP Scots.gov? Nope

      “My brush with premature death came a couple of years ago at 30,000ft en route to Australia – my heart had finally decided to protest.

      In those moments, you remember that you are a west of Scotland male and that appearances must thus be upheld: the reputation of Glasgow is on the line here. So you are all wise-cracking stoicism – “I’ll need to put more lime in my Bacardi” – and all that malarkey. Your insides are in ribbons, though, and you’re trying to remember the last time you went to confession.”

      or the ligger could actually exercise, even a little, imbibe a little less swally, scoff less pies…

      Here in Glasgow, back of bus ads suggest that we walk, once a week. How the fuck did it get to this in Scotland, where people need to be advised to walk about a bit, once a week?

    152. @heedtracker

      it wasn`t just the old age pensioners Brown tried to terrify he also said Scot

    153. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      29 October, 2017 at 10:50 pm
      @Wullie B says: 29 October, 2017 at 7:24 pm:

      “Correct me if I am wrong but the North Isles dont recieve the RET whereas the West Coast islands all do

      o.k. Wullie.B – I’ll correct you.

      The scheme had to start somewhere and every place cannot be first.

      Take your SNP BAAAAAAD! Bullshit and shove it where it won’t pollute the atmosphere.

      ………………….

      That is a disgraceful response to what was a perfectly civil question which had already been answered by me and by Lenny Hartley without resorting to the abusive language that seems to be your stock in trade.

    154. Ken500 says:

      Stop comparing Scottish Independence with Catalonia. To cause trouble. They are totally different. There is no comparison without comparing and quality the differences.

      The constant ill conceived comparisons could put people off voting for Independence in Scotland. As waste of time or not making a difference. When it would totally be advantageous for the UK/EU/UN world economy. Prevent illegal wars etc. Killing vulnerable innocent people. Wasting £Trns of unionist ignorance incompetence.

      There is 1/3 support in Catalonia, Puigdemont knew it and still went ahead. Lose the vote on having a Referendum. 2.3Million out of 5.3 electorate. 700,000 do not get a vote? Why. No taxation without representation. 7.5 Million pop. 1.5Million under 18 years (voting age) 6 Million.

      50%+ support Independence in Scotland. For good reason. 70% support total FFA.

      Scotland voted 62% to EU membership.

      Brexit ruining the world economy. Totally damaging the Scottish economy. Apppalling. Illegal.

      1/3 support Brexit. 17Million. 45Million electorate. 62.5Million pop.

      2million? Do not get a vote. No taxation without representation.

    155. Ken500 says:

      North Isles are to receive RET. It is being introduced. Nicola announced it the other day?

    156. @heedtracker

      it wasn`t just the old age pensioners Brown tried to terrify he also said Scot`s that needed organ transplants from outwith Scotland would be put at risk,

      even though it had already been confirmed there would be no change in our ability to access organs and blood after Independence,

      “NHS Blood and Transplant, which co-ordinates organ donation across the UK, has already confirmed in writing that independence would not lead to any change in these arrangements”.

      Brown ticks a lot of the boxes for Asperger`s Syndrome.

    157. Ken500 says:

      Falkland Islands

      Feb 1764 – April 1767 France
      Jan 1765 – July 1770 GB
      April 1765 – Feb 1811 Spain
      Feb 1811 – August None
      August 1829 – Dec 1831 United Provinces
      Dec 1831 – Jan 1832 US
      Jan – Dec 1832 None
      Dec 1832 – Jan1833 Argentina Confederation
      Jan – Aug 1833 UK
      August 1833 – Jan 1834 None
      Jan 1834 – 1983 UK
      April -June 1982 Argentina
      June 1982 – UK

      3,000 people supported £Billions. War.

      Sheep farming, fishing.

      Dispute claims UK and Argentina. UN supports talks end the dispute. Air flights over Argentina. Need Argentina support for supplies,

    158. stewartb says:

      O/T

      Nice touch (!!) from John Humphries on BBC Radio 4’s Today Programme this morning when discussing Norther Ireland: he divided the population of NI into “Nationalists and Protestants”.

      I have personal family experience from 2014 of the view that if you are a ‘Protestant’ in Scotland then of course you will vote NO to Scottish independence! I was then and remain now amazed and saddened by this attitude from someone I know well.

    159. An interesting form of words from a unionist like Cameron.

      ‘That as long as the people of the Falkland islands want remain British. We respect that right of self determination’.

      So does that mean if the Falkland islanders or the Gibraltarians opted for independence from the UK.

      They wouldn’t have the support of UK unionist politicians?

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 30 October, 2017 at 9:08 am:

      “Robert Peffers says:
      29 October, 2017 at 10:50 pm
      @Wullie B says: 29 October, 2017 at 7:24 pm:
      “Correct me if I am wrong but the North Isles dont recieve the RET whereas the West Coast islands all do
      o.k. Wullie.B – I’ll correct you.
      The scheme had to start somewhere and every place cannot be first.
      Take your SNP BAAAAAAD! Bullshit and shove it where it won’t pollute the atmosphere.
      ………………….
      That is a disgraceful response to what was a perfectly civil question which had already been answered by me and by Lenny Hartley without resorting to the abusive language that seems to be your stock in trade.

      Perhaps, Legerwood, you could highlight exactly the abusive language bits of my reply and explain exactly what is abusive about them?

      My reply only shows that the SG scheme was always going to be rolled out if it proved a success and having proved to be a success is already now to be rolled out to the Northern Isles.

      You, and your compatriots, are now engaged in a campaign to attempt to falsely paint me as being abusive. A favoured ploy of the Westminster Establishment, the BBC and the Scottish dead tree press.

      There isn’t a single abusive term in the reply I made. The truth is that Wullie.B is attempting to make out that the SNP are treating the Northern Isles badly when the truth is that there are fears the RET scheme as applied to the Northern Isles will be less successful than in existing areas because of the concessions that were already in place in the Northern Isles but not elsewhere where RET was first rolled out.

      Now please show which words I used that are abusive and explain what is abusive about them.

      Or perhaps you imagine my reply to you is abusive because I disagree with you.

    161. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Breeks

      “Our sovereignty is the strongest constitutional resource we have, but we have yet to use it.”

      So let’s use it. I suggested this the other day. Let’s formulate a test case, something that has impinged upon our sovereignty, and take it to the Court of Session / Supreme Court. I’m sure if we can come up with a good case / question that can be tested in the courts, then I’m sure we can crowd fund it. Probably hundreds of thousands (at least), mind you. But if the Orkney Four can do it, so can we.

      So, Breeks, get a question / case together and let’s test it instead of simply talking about it all the time.

      Time for action; time to win our Indy through the Courts.

      What say you, Breeks?

    162. sensibledave says:

      I am genuinely confused. Here in the UK, MPs of all parties in all parts of the UK decided there was enough momentum for a referendum to be held in Scotland on the subject of Scottish Independence. The referendum was held and is accepted to have been free and fair. The majority of voters in Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. There are very few similarities to the situation in Spain.

      As I understand it the referendum there was judged to be illegal by the Spanish government and many potential voters in Catalonia didn’t vote as a result. I should say though,given the level of support there appears to be for Catalonian independence, it is my view that the Spanish government should allow one.

      Whilst everyone is of course free to express their support or condemnation for events in Catalonia, please do not try to draw equivalence to the situation here in the UK and Scotland. There is none.

    163. Bob p says:

      Stewart 9.47am. Ah but thats the way of westmidden and their unionist stooges. Divide and conquer by inciting religious hatred among countries populations. Twas ever thus.

    164. heedtracker says:

      Whilst everyone is of course free to express their support or condemnation for events in Catalonia, please do not try to draw equivalence to the situation here in the UK and Scotland. There is none.

      Good olde sneaky sensibledave. Tell all that to BBC tories for example sensible. Its the beeb gimp network that’s using Catalonia to terrorise Scots now, as you know full well.

      “The referendum was held and is accepted to have been free and fair.”

      Funny. What happened to the great last minute.com The Vow shyste sensible? devo-max, federal UK, dont leave us, lead us, we beg you…

      Last nights BBC r4 vote tory Westminster had usual clusterfudge of tories who all explained how great the Scottish ref was and it had been handled so well, by devolving power to UK regions.

      None of the tories were asked what 2014 devo had actually been devolved to Holyrood for example. But that’s how it works in teamGB,

    165. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Jackie Kim Ono

      https://imgur.com/a/s7h7u

    166. Velofello says:

      We have a Foreign Secretary mumbling Kipling in a temple,. We have an incoherent Prime Minister, who “lost” the files on paedofiles Sex and drugs on patrol in armed nuclear submarines. Just how much do we need to have placed before us to realise we really really need to leave the UK?

    167. Ken500 says:

      The unionist liars, cheated and broke the Law throughout the Scottish Indy Ref. Illegal donations etc. Still at it. Unfinished business.

      They did the same throughout the EU Referendum.

      Appalling lying criminals. Westminster criminal cess pit. They should be drink drug tested. Most of them should be in jail. They make the Law and break the Law with impunity. Appalling Behaviour. Killing and maiming millions of vulnerable people. Warmongers. £Trns of debt.

    168. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ian Brotherhood – Arran cycled round in a day ? its been trotted round in a day, I’ve been trying to walk round it for about ten years, still about half to do! Back in the sixties the Milk biyclevrace used to come to Arran, even had exotic creatures like Russians racing, they used to do just over 1-1/2 times the Island. It got taken from the calendar due to too many serious accidents.
      Another example is Singapore, ( im not dissing your bit about the Gazza Strip,) similar population to Scotland, similiar landmass to Arran.
      Since it’s the holiday season time of year and people will be thinking of sending out to each other pieces of dead trees, why don’t you do what I started doing about ten years ago, contribute a fiver a month to Medical aid for Palestine, rather than waste your money on a piece of cardboard which will be thrown in the recycling bin after a month of collecting dust , do something useful and help Palestinian kids get Medical treatment.

    169. John H. says:

      Scot Finlayson says

      “Brown ticks a lot of the boxes for Asperger`s Syndrome.”

      He also ticks a lot of boxes for being a liar.

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      @Legerwood
      The abuse and rudeness is one of the reasons I’m going to post a lot less, or not at all. It’s catching, and there’s a few postings btl elsewhere I wish I hadn’t made, even though I as able to edit most of them out. It’s so pointless and is hardly going to convince anyone to vote YES, quite the opposite. It should be left to the hard Unionists.

    171. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 @ 10.32am

      I have to agree with you. I do not post very much these days and find that I am scrolling past more and more posts without reading them.

    172. Bill McLean says:

      Indyref2 – don’t allow them to drive you away. Just ignore the ignorant and the ongoing feuds that do our cause no good. Shame! but it always comes to this almost as if someone is controlling it! Bill

    173. Meg merrilees says:

      New post from Rev.

      Will post this here so as not to go O/T immediately.

      Update on Catalonia – twitter showing all ministers, speaker of the house arriving as per normal to go to work.

      New Spain imposed head of police says they have to remove personal belonging and leave. They say they are going to work as normal and are loyal to the democratically elected Catalan Gov.

      Nazi salutes – openly in front of police- last night in Barcelona; calls of viva franco; some violence caused by Unionists.

      Several busloads heading towards Barcelona from across Spain.

      Tension building.

    174. Brian Powell says:

      Struggling to understand why Brown is in an article in the National. How could it add anything to the discussion on Independence which is what the National is supposed to be about.

    175. Tatu3 says:

      Scot Finlayson says

      “Brown ticks a lot of the boxes for Asperger`s Syndrome.”

      That’s an insult to genuine Aspies!

      My daughter is beautiful, caring, thoughtful, kind, generous, clever, and has lots of common sense.

    176. Brian Powell says:

      I’m struggling to understand why there is an article about G Brown in the National. I can’t see why it would add anything to the discussion about Independence, which is what the National is supposed to be about.

    177. @Tatu3

      didn`t mean it as a `negative` criticism of Brown,

      Einstien, Newton ,Bill Gates are also high achievers with aspects of Asperger`s.

    178. Bob p says:

      Velofello 10.18am. I think even ‘god forbid ‘ a nuclear accident at faslane,and mass radiation of the local populace, PSB’s would bury their heads in the sand,wave their flegs,and still say mother westmidden knows whats best for us.

    179. Petra says:

      @ Still Positive says at 1:01 am ….”Petra … Happy to hear that as I live quite close to Faslane and have been worrying about an accident there for most of my adult life. I was 67 last month and this has been worrying me in West Dunbartonshire since I was in my early 20s.”

      It’s a disgrace, Still Positive, that Scots should be living in fear on a daily basis and even more so now of course with Trump calling the shots. The sooner we get our Independence and have the subs and missiles returned to sender the better. One also asks themself who in England would put up with this? No-one and that’s the reason why they’ve been dumped on our soil. We don’t count.

      ………………………………………….

      @ Ian Brotherhood says at 12:54 am …”Petra – Good on ye for highlighting the Balfour ‘celebrations’. Rank stuff altogether. You’ll know this already, and you’ll also have seen me posting this analogy before, but IMO it remains one of the most persuasive when ‘explaining’ the situation to fellow Scots… The Gaza ‘strip’ is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet … In order to replicate that density somewhere in Scotland, all of our cities and major towns would have to be evacuated, the populations sent to, say, the Isle of Arran…..”

      No I didn’t realise that Ian. It’s an education on here. Horrendous to think of millions of people living in such a small area, in such conditions and surrounded by people who are determined to destroy them. My heart goes out to the children and of course their parents who must be feeling absolutely futile in their attempts to protect them. The bottom line is that ‘Great’ Britain has a LOT to answer for and how Theresa May can even consider celebrating this travesty of justice and sheer misery for millions is beyond me. More than anything how anyone would want to support this party, this Union, just beggars belief. To make matters worse, if you haven’t done so already, take a look at one of the links that Nana posted this morning.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/black-history-month-colonialism-history-teacher-whitewashing-selective-past-a8025741.html

    180. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana, illuminating as ever, and I see that Boris’s brother Jo is also doing his bit to turn the UK into a facist state. What a network, eh? And absolutely TERRIFYING, imo.

      ‘…. The Home Office is doing its bit to terrorise universities. Staff have to watch out for students who express un-kosher opinions on Israel or appear to espouse radical views. These injunctions are aimed at Muslims. But they affect everyone and everything. Visiting speakers and volunteers have to show their passports, foreign students are made to feel insecure….

      The younger Johnson adds further pressures. He has two messages for universities: they must not support ‘safe spaces’ or permit students to lobby to keep out speakers because freedom of speech is sacrosanct. But, no radical or ‘anti-Israel’ speaker should be allowed access to campuses. Fear of the authorities spreads and smells…..

      Schools will be next. Then possibly theatres, publishing houses, commercial broadcasters, parliament. The new right seeks to misinform, to punish dissent, control minds, grow a submissive population. Our democracy is not safe. Wake up. Beat back the feral bulldogs.

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/right-wing-assault-universities-dark-warning-wake-britains-democracy-isnt-safe-1644870

    181. Brian Powell says:

      After Brexit Universities will do what they’re told, only three have been given assurance of funding, the rest will need to beg.

    182. louis.b.argyll says:

      Legerwood, .. Where else should RP suggest someone shoves it.

      ..sticks and stones can break your bones..but defaulting to ‘SNP BAD’ PERPETUATES GENERATIONAL FAILINGS IN OUR SOCIETY..by cheapening civilised political discourse.

      On yersel Peffers.

    183. Petra says:

      @ Brian Powell says at 1:28 pm … ”After Brexit Universities will do what they’re told, only three have been given assurance of funding, the rest will need to beg.”

      I presume that’ll be Cambridge and Oxford, England and St Andrews, Scotland? The top three on the University League Table of 2018. Or, eh, will they just skip St Andrews and opt for the London School of Economics instead?

      http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bill McLean
      Getting it from a unionist poster on a normal forum is all grist to the mill, you can either leave it or highlight it as an example of how poor the unionist argument is “wee krankie”, “fat eck” (and worse), or use it to make your case even more – OBE used to be useful for that, and there are others even now. But from a defined indy-supporting forum, it just fills up threads and achieves nothing, while drowning the posts that actually contain useful information or links, with schoolground taunts.

    185. Bill McLean says:

      Indyref2 – agree with you in principle but should we just t
      urn Wings over to them. OBE – now there’s one I remember with fondness and hilarity from my Herald reading days. I wonder does he still post. He was from Dunfermline, John McIntyre I think his name was. I remember him referring to youngsters from Kelty and Cowdenbeath as “yobs” for which he was much criticized! He had of course undergone much self-improvement and was living in the southeast of Englandshire. His OBE was for services to refuse management and lack of self-respect!

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bill McLean
      Thing is I feel obliged to jump in and defend people insulted and abused, and become part of the problem, not the solution, It would need to come from the top, but the new thread shows a classic example of a poster with a link to a very interesting article on wiki which seems to be quite balanced from its coverage of countries’ reactions, being leapt on for daring to quote its conclusion at the start about the Catalan Referendum being irregular in the eyes of properly accredited international observers.

      There’s good posters, but there’s also a lot of good posters have presumably given up as I see their handles or names elsewhere, but not here any more.

      Maybe it’ll get better when there’s a Ref actually going. Meanwhile maybe I’ll have a quick look at that China forum, see what’s going on 🙂

    187. Conan the Librarian says:

      @yesindyref2

      The state security apparatus has many diverse and subtle ways of subverting opposition. Why do you think Left Wing organizations always suffer from the People’s Front of Judea syndrome?

    188. Rock says:

      geeo,

      “I do not debate with people who constantly post the same repetitive garbage time after time, which has been debunked every time, a hundred times.”

      You have nothing to debate, you have been left speechless:

      I am 100% in favour of Proportional Representation.

      What about you?

    189. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Trying to obey good old Rock and not read the Graun for coffee time”

      (Ex-)Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you will have some withdrawal symptons as when you gave up smoking, but be brave like a Catalonian, don’t give up easily.

    190. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Perhaps, Legerwood, you could highlight exactly the abusive language bits of my reply and explain exactly what is abusive about them?”

      It isn’t rocket science, except to Scotland’s greatest ever constitutional expert:

      “Take your SNP BAAAAAAD! Bullshit and shove it where it won’t pollute the atmosphere.”

    191. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      I see you, ie, your cyber-persona, is still generating comments on the “2nd” page, in an effort to be the last commenter on a page.

      Give it up – you’ve been sussed.

    192. Fairliered says:

      Posted elsewhere, but also relevant here:
      I wonder if the SNP have instigated their inquiry into sex allegations hoping that labour & Tory victims will also speak up?
      However BBC Scotland and the rest of the unionist media will be trying to work up an SNP scandal whilst continuing the cover up of unionist suspects.
      Women’s lives mean nothing in comparison to maintenance of their precious union.



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