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Wings Over Scotland


Homage To Catalonia

Posted on October 01, 2017 by

We’ll be keeping this post updated throughout the day with news as it comes in.

Remember as you look at these images: this is a modern European state reacting to an entirely peaceful democratic movement and process in 2017.

Even Katie Hopkins found it all a bit too much.

As did at least one Scottish Tory MSP:

The great internationalists of Scottish Labour, however, had their own take.

Fair makes you glow with comradely solidarity, doesn’t it?

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Nigel

Perfect summary of events so far. The EU in 2017. Never thought I would see the like.

Calgacus

Thank you for showing the disgraceful scenes that are coming from Catalonia.
I hear that the Catalonians are now preparing to declare UDI tomorrow as Spain has effectively crushed democracy.

heedtracker

SLabour are beyond hideous now.

Legerwood

And Labour remains silent apart from Wilson’s less than stellar contribution.

Is this perhaps the reason for Labour’s silence – solidarity with their fellow leftists in Catalonia who do not support the nationalist/separatist cause? From the Guardian today
link to archive.is

Apparently there is a substantial left wing in Catalonia and they do not support those seeking independence. Sounds familiar.

Bugger (the Panda)

A paramilitary Police force exists not to defend the State and the People from outside threats but the inner Elite and Rulers from the People.

It is the physical repressive arm of a State which has not cleansed itself of its fascist past

James Sneddon

I never in my life thought Labour could get any lower but those comments sicken me would not be out of place in 1930’s Germany. Spain shows itself ti be incapable of casting off its fascist past, stupid, stupid Spain

Andy-B

This is just terrible, my heart goes out to the poor folk of Catalonia, who just want to vote on their future, without violence.

The Catalonian government must document all the cases of physical assaults. The UN is a disgrace not overseeing the vote, UDI is the only route now for the people of Cattalonia.

Bugger (the Panda)

Any odds on the EU stepping in to sort this out, if at all?

geeo

Hopefully this is not a catalyst to a return of armed violence by the likes of ETA.

UDI being reported as likely in the next 48hrs, possibly regardless of the “result”.

This will FORCE the U.N. and the EU to act.

Interesting times ahead for sure.

One_Scot

I’ve not felt this sad in a long time.

heedtracker

SLabour goons back this?

link to catalannews.com

Abulhaq

The proud Scot Brian Wilson might turn his attention to the ‘ugly nationalism’ among the unionists of Spain and the UK, some of it bearing the official stamp of approval. Their now little empires are under threat; unleash the ravening dogs of the state and media machine.

Cmonindy

Qui tacet consentere. Silence gives consent. The Unionist parties give consent to the tactics and behaviour of the Spanish government.

Cmonindy

Qui tecat consentere. Silence gives consent. The Unionist parties give consent to the tactics and behaviour of the Spanish government.

Fred

Brian Wilson! what’s the Gaelic for “Shite!” again!

Phronesis

A liberated and united Europe emerged out of the ashes of a devastating conflict by mixing traditional values and the promise of modernity,reconciling humanistic and religious values with the institutions of government.
The Spanish government has disgraced itself today and should be ostracised. A mature liberal democracy does not fear expressions of democracy.

Muscleguy

This is the email address of the Spanish consulate in Edinburgh: cog.edimburgo@maec.es

I have sent them a polite email pledging never to buy Spanish produce and never to travel to Spain outside of Catalunya.

I urge everyone else to get in touch with them and politely express our outrage at Spanish actions.

donald anderson

You will notice Brian Wilson’s weakly column in the Hootsmon is adored by right wing Loyalist online readers.

Bradford Millar

what can the EU do to Spain … it’s a internal matter ?? do they threaten to kick them out ??

but Labour show their true colours and lack of class yet again

Marie Clark

Jeez oh, I thought this was the 21st century, That’s no way to sort anything out. Violence never solves anything.

I reckon that the people of Catalonia will now be more determined than ever to have their independence. All that Spain will have done, is strengthen their resolve.

How stupid has Spain been in the handling of this referendum? The Spanish reputation is in tatters, the EU shown up to be a sham, unable or unwilling to protect their own citizens.

I never thought that I would see the day. It looks as though that bad bastard Franco is still alive and well. Rajoy, should be dragged before the international court for this, but by the looks of things, I won’t hold my breath.

katsoft

So sad to see this in a so called democracy. Could never happen here.
Oh wait Scotland was threatened with invasion if we voted yes.
EU and UN must intervene before this gets totally out of control

Brian Powell

Gives us a good pointer to what our Labour in Scotland will accept in future democratic processes.

So, if people protest to protect the NHS in London they will be OK with whatever the police do.

Nigel

I am greatly saddened and (as a remain voter) hugely disappointed that the EU remains silent on this. A crisis for the EU could fall out of this situation and for once, I won’t be sympathetic…

So much for reforming the EU. All empty words…My independent Scotland in Europe stance is changing. I wonder if we would not be much better off in the Nordic community.

Brian Powell

katsoft

Yes, when a Westminster politician said they would bomb Scottish airports if Scotland was Independent.

Ghillie

This is terrifying.

These are not isolated incidents.

The Spanish police brutality is happening in many different locations. Under orders and as trained I presume.

ALL the footage I have seen is of people sitting, standing or walking, then being flung, kicked, shoved, dragged and shot at by robo-style cops.

And still not retaliating with violence in return. The voters are not even able to protect themselves.

The peaceful restraint of the Catalans is incredible.

Why would any body of people want to stay a part of a country that treats their ‘own’ like that?

SPAIN, HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME.

Calum McKay

Spain’s reaction has guaranteed Catalonia’s freedom!

the british can no longer use Spain as any form of blocker or warning to Scottish independence, otherwise they are using a fascist regime to make their point.

Jason Smoothpiece

Shame on the Spanish government this behaviour is not acceptable.

Shame on the UKOK party’s and Westminster the silence can never be forgotten you will never have credibility again.

Very difficult for the EU how can they explain their silence?

Clapper57

According to Cat Boyd on Twitter – ” If you see this and say nothing YOU ARE COMPLICIT”…..hmm….or Cat maybe if you vote Labour then you too are complicit.

euan0709

Seem that the Herald/Sunday Herald ? have now blocked comments on this outrage !

Tony Little

Article 7 of the EU treaty specifically refers to the use of force by police/military against a country’s own population. Spain is clearly in breach of this condition and should be summarily suspended. Will EU act?

seanair

How’s the BBC doing?

Marie Clark

Muscleguy, thanks for the email address for the Spanish consulate. I duly sent a polite email expressing my disgust at Spain’s handling of the situation, only to have it rejected.

Anyone else having this problem. Have they shut all of their systems down to avoid condemnation, or was I just unlucky. I really was polite and reasonable so it must be my objection that they don’t care for.

geeo

Interesting report on NDTV (New Dehli TV).

(Never going to hear this on Uk MSM)

They are reporting that local catalan police are NOT getting involved in the crackdown by police.

They are apparently being helpful to people trying to vote.

Even worse news for Madrid, when the Catalan police are refusing to go along with your subversion of democracy.

Having a police force onside when Catalan gov declares UDI is a HUGE booster.

Andrew Morton

As Westminster discovered in 2014, an independence referendum is as much a political learning curve for the voters as it is a vote. And Madrid is doing its utmost to ensure that the lesson is learned.

Marie Clark

Bradfor Millar @ 11.31 Spain maybe regard this as an internal matter, but it is EU citizens that they’re currently knocking seven bells out of.

Article 7 forbids the use of police/ military against their own population. So where the hell are they then, or are they all feart to put their heids above the parapet.

This is an international disgrace, not just an internal matter, so where are all the voices in support of the peoples rights.

Scot Finlayson

Could someone please remove Gordon Brewer from up the fat arse of Ruth Davidson before he expires.

Bugger (the Panda)

Madrid is doing everything wrong and no listening to anyone of sense.

Machismo is a Spanish word.

Jason Smoothpiece

Marie Clark @ 11.47

I also sent a polite email it seems to have went without trouble.

No doubt deleted by now.

Norman Stewart

I am in Barcellona now and can’t find a single person who doesn’t want a vote.

geeo

Brewer..”what does the sign behind you say…”?

RD….(reads it out)

Brewer…”there you go, you got your propoganda slogans over…”

Emmm..no..YOU made sure of that you fecking patsy.

Marie Clark

Article 7 also calls for the suspension of any country that uses
police/military force against it’s own people.

What are you waiting for boys?

Sorry EU totally and utterly diminished in my eyes.

Bob Mack

I stand with the Catalan people today ,and every future day in my lifetime. They have real courage.

heedtracker

Tony Little says:
1 October, 2017 at 11:45 am
Article 7 of the EU treaty specifically refers to the use of force by police/military against a country’s own population. Spain is clearly in breach of this condition and should be summarily suspended. Will EU act?

Article 7 of the European Union Treaty;
“Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

Still nothing from Jezza Corbyn too. What a pack of charlatans they are.

R-type Grunt

This is a fucking outrage!

Andy-B

Craig Murray has a good article on how NATO went to war to defend the right to self-determination of the Kosovans, which Kosovan secession was claimed as illegal by Serbia.

Yet the democratic rights of the Catalonian people are violently denied.

link to craigmurray.org.uk

Mike

If there ever was a case for a United Spain then they threw it away today.
Every living soul on the planet has a basic human right to free themselves from the kinds of Governments who use military force to extend its will on its own people.
Its one thing to quell violent rioting and looting with force but to default to force on people exercising a Democratic choice peacefully and without rancour only goes to justify the need for that Democratic choice to be respected and ratified by the EU and UN.

David Ross

I will not be going to Spain again for holidays. Rev- could you post the names of the cruise liner companies that have hired out their ships to the Spanish Govt to use as barracks in Barcelona. Lets boycott Spanish goods, holidays and these cruise companies.

Heather McLean

Dear @JunckerEU :
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
“Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

Abulhaq

@Legerwood
As in Scotland it is the older leftist generation who shun ‘separatism’, the Brian Wilson type.
In Catalonia these people are meeting their nemesis.
Ironic that the interests of the orthodox British/Spanish left accord on this matter with those of the right.

Hamish100

Labours Brian Wilson supports the facist like behaviour of Madrid’s paramilitary.What a low life. It is indefensible.

Should we not organise a demonstration that thuggery by a state against people wishing to vote is a crime against the people.
Disgraceful scenes.

geeo

Good old beeb…

Brewer just stated that…

“im not sure its fair to say its a nasty situation, i mean, i dont think anything worse has happened than what you might see in the average demonstration in any big city, but it could get quite nasty”.

There you have it folks…the BBC verdict on the subversion of democracy by the state.

Un fucking believable.

Lochside

So it has come to this…the actual return of fascism on the European continent. Anyone looking at these brutal images of booted and masked thugs masquerading as police, attacking elderly, middle-aged and young peaceful citizens for having the temerity to actually vote and does not feel sorrow and rage, cannnot be human. Or a state shill, like Brian Wilson and his despicable fellow slab ‘comrades’.

The silence of the EU is salutory for those of us who still longed to remain within it because of its protections buit in, apparently, to support citizens’ rights. It now seems that the EU and our continuing status within it is a chimera..something to be re-evaluated in light of the collusion of silence by all the large states, who obviously do not wish ‘secession’ to succeed.

Democracy and the sovereignty of small nations seems to be nothing but a fanciful notion in the current political world and one not to be indulged with. The question for us now is…if Spain nullifies the referendum but ignites violent reaction within Catalonia…where does that leave our peaceful and democratic progress towards a legally validated Referendum?
Will the UK use Catalonia to impose its own nascent fascist power and prevent it happening?

tom kane

Spain has just left the building. Europe looks worse than Trumpland today. I loved that the Catalans came here in 2014… And that they stood with us even as the Britnats had the US president say discouraging things, and the European Union lined up behind Rajoy and the Commonwealth onboard… As Spain throws much worse at you, thank-you Catalonia, you deserve your vote, and you have many new friends. Here is wishing you the spirit of Pablo Casals and the right to self-determination.

Now is the time. Respect.

Wull

With shocking scenes like these it is now sure beyond all doubt that Spain has lost it. ‘Lost it’ in every sense: Catalan independence is now a certainty.

Spain cannot recover from this. If they had allowed the vote to go ahead peacefully, they might just have won. Whatever the outcome, they would at least have retained some kind of moral authority. Now, having lost all semblance of such authority, they will have driven those who were wavering or unsure into the pro-independence movement.

The tactics might be different, but if we win Indref2 we should be ready for all kinds of hostility. Our Southern neighbour will not let us go so easily, I am sure, and will do everything they can to spoil the party. For once thing, illegitimate though it is, I expect they will try to deny the unitary nature of Scotland, fomenting secession in places like the Southern Uplands and the Northern Isles.

We must be ready for that kind of thing. What will be unleashed on us after we win will shock us beyond belief. The English state, we will discover, not only is not but never has been our friend. It should not be so, but the likelihood is that it will be very ugly indeed.

As it would have been in 2014 if we had won.

The truth is: we haven’t seen anything yet.

Of course, let’s hope it doesn’t happen that way. Let’s hope that fair play and decent conduct will come out on top. But let’s not fool ourselves; let’s not bank on it. Be ready for the worst …

Meanwhile, time to press ahead, and get on with it. Faint hearts never won anything … We have to win it, and then stand firm, no matter what gets thrown at us.

Independence can’t come fast enough …

Andy-B

Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are currently tweeting about housing matters.

Not a peep from both over the fascist violence occuring in Catalonia right now.

Hamish100

If the EU don’t intervene to protect EU citizens our referendum will have to have a clause of independence in EFta.
Spain is now a facist state allied by the Ruk’s

Jean Nisbet

Had my first encounter with the Guardia Civil on the Franco-Spanish border in 1970. They haven’t changed.

Alex Clark

Exactly what kind of a state uses riot police and rubber bullets to prevent a democratic vote? The Spanish state.

Hamish100

Labours Brian Wilson supports the facist like behaviour of Madrid’s paramilitary.What a low life. It is indefensible.

Should we not organise a demonstration that thuggery by a state against people wishing to vote is a crime against the people.
Disgraceful scenes.
Isis is a terrorist organisation. So is the Spanish paramilitary it seems

sinky

Live coverage on Euro news which has just quoted Nicola Sturgeon

DaveyM

Staggering in both the horror of the Spanish police and the utterly (and predictably) contemptuous response from Labour.

liz

This is unbelievable and shocking.
We knew it was going to happen but is much worse than expected.

Duncan Hothershall is supporting facism, true face shown.

Spain and the folk who support them should never be allowed to forget this

admiral

James Sneddon says:
1 October, 2017 at 11:17 am
I never in my life thought Labour could get any lower but those comments sicken me would not be out of place in 1930’s Germany. Spain shows itself ti be incapable of casting off its fascist past, stupid, stupid Spain

We should never forget that the legally appointed Chancellor of Germany Hitler became the legally sanctioned dictator. All subsequent murder, torture, waging of war and oppression was legally sanctioned by the state. The branch office “logic” thus supports fascism as a legitimate form of political expression.

geeo

Not convinced condemning the EU and U.N. at this time is appropriate to be honest.

Events will be addressed AFTER the full story emerges later tonight and tomorrow.

Instant reaction by international bodies is not going to happen, but that is not to say there will be NO action.

If, as reported, the Catalan government declares UDI in the next 48 hrs, it would be completely inappropriate for the EU and U.N. to comment today on the actions of the Spanish Government.

Just how these things work.

If that UDI happens, things will get interesting real quick, as the EU and U.N. will NEED to respond.

Bit early to trash talk the EU in respect of Scotland,we risk falling into a self triggered trap there imo.

Artyhetty

Absolutely horrendous. They ar attacking the people they insist should want to stay part of Spain! WTAF!

That must be terrifying, look at who they are targeting, anyone, old, young it doesn’t matter to them. And the actual fckg armour these robots working for the Spanish police are wearing. Cowards.
This is not a riot, the people are not looting, attacking anyone or anything, yet the Spanish police do this?!

I will not be buying anything Spanish from now on, I thought they were a civilised modern country, but no, just backward, oppressive right wing extremists.

What a sad day. As for the EU, if they don’t do not come out and condemn this oppression and violence against the Catalans, they will have lost my support.

As has benn mentioned, perhaps a we should think seriously about a Nordic type of membership. Have as little to do with the EU as possible.

What are other EU member states saying about this? I know brexit little britnat britain doesn’t give too hoots even if people are killed by Spanish police.

Very sad, very angry.

Not Convinced

Wull said on 1 October, 2017 at 12:18 pm
Spain cannot recover from this. If they had allowed the vote to go ahead peacefully, they might just have won. Whatever the outcome, they would at least have retained some kind of moral authority.

Indeed, though it’s sobering when you realise that by comparison David Cameron now appears to be a thoughtful & responsible statesman with his eye on the ball and his mind on the long term consequences!

heedtracker

Colonel Ruth, to Sir Gordon Brewer,

I’VE BEEN SO FORTHRIGHT IN MY DISAPPOINTMENT AND MY ANGER AT THE SNP AND THE FIRST MINISTER FOR TRYING TO SAY THAT A REFERENDUM THAT THEY SAID WOULD RECOGNISE THEY JUST WANT TO RERUN AGAIN ”

The Colonel is not amused.

geeo

Catalan police force NOT helping the Madrid police in any way.

This reported on NDTV network earlier.

Kenny Martin

Fascism returns to Spain in 2017. If you tolerate this…

heedtracker

On BBC Politics web site? absolutely nothing, a total BBC black out on Catalonia today. They really are a pack of neo fascists in that outfit. Hell mend them.

link to bbc.co.uk

artyhetty

re;not convinced@12.38

Nah, Cameron had the whole of the media on his side, he even employed celebs, and even Obama and the queen to oppose Scot indy before we even voted! He did not need to bring in the troops, that time. They knew they would secure their no vote, by hook or by crook, look at what untRuth said about postal votes! They, the tories, UK state, approved by all britnats, ie, Labour, Libdums, and with UKIP hanging around like a bad smell, they had it in the bag.

It could be different next time, but the again, the stakes are less on the side of independence, for now. Just wait until Brexit really kicks in. My anti SNP, anti Scotindy retired friends are thinking of, ‘moving up to Scotland’. Yep, but they will be voting yes if I have anything to do with it!

A very bad look for Spain today, and the EU in fact.

If they want this kind of world for our kids, nevermind climate change etc, they really have lost the fckg plot!

handclapping

Good old beeb, clashes they say. When they show us pics of the voters attacking the police then they can use clashes. Until that time they should report police attacking voters but it would be unconciousable for the BBC to report the truth so “clashes” it is

PS just what did HAMMERS do?

Giesabrek

Silence from Westminster suggests to me they’re watching closely to see how successful this strategy is in suppressing the attempt at Catalan independence. If strong arm tactics are successful against an “illegal” vote then I can see similar tactics against indyref2.

Think about it, WM refuse to agree to indyref2 (they’re already saying there’s no mandate for it) then claim any attempt to hold indyref2 is illegal. Follow Spain’s tactics and suppress it by sending in jackboots into polling stations. Then sit back and listen to silence from the EU and the international community.

heedtracker

Catalan referendum: Clashes as voters defy Madrid
1 hour ago
From the section Europe

As usual, bbc by-line free, but exactly how beeb Scotland gimps described neo fascist britnat thug assaults, George Square, Glasgow after ref1. Probably same bbc headline writers too.

link to bbc.co.uk

Andy-B

Colonel Ruth Davidson, describes the violent events being played out in Catalonia, as a “Fast moving situation.” And not a violent fascist putdown of democracy.

Did I just miss something?

link to mobile.twitter.com

Ruby

This action by the Madrid Gov. doesn’t come as a surprise to me. It’s what I expected. I was never really convinced that the Spanish Falangistas just disappeared overnight because Franco died.

They’ll be loads of people in Spain who think the behaviour of the Guardia Civil is perfectly acceptable.

Macart

A 21st century modern western democracy. Not so you’d notice.

Those scenes are appalling.

Brian Powell

heedtracker

Of course Brewer pointed out that Holyrood voted for a referendum, though she ran the whole election campaign at the GE17 and lost whereas the SNP won, or he probably didn’t point that out.

galamcennalath

IMO Spain has now made Catalan independence a certainty. And soon.

Lenny Hartley

Wasn’t Brian Wilson a member of the SNP in Dunnon (dave Mcewan Hill?) and chucked it when he was told he wasn’t good enough to stand for office?

Any thought I had that Scotland should be a full member of the EU have gone out the window today, the EU are as culpable as the Spanish government today, one public announcement from the EU would have stopped the violence against innocent democrats.

Thomas Valentine

I wonder if Ruth Davidson knows any of the Spanish National Police? You know from her little private meetings at the Conservative Party Conference.
How’s your side of the deal look now Ruth?

Giving Goose

What happens when Right Wing governments want to distract the populace from internal problems?

They invade somewhere.

Watch out Gibraltar.

Glamaig

O/T
plans for no Brexit deal are underway

link to rte.ie

Stuart McTavish

Looking at these sad scenes it appears that staggeringly incompetent mismanagement will make Indy for Catalonia inevitable – as such a great opportunity for penny-wise Scots butts presents itself in the form of an amalgamated football league … Will we have the wit to take it?

heedtracker

Of course Brewer pointed out that Holyrood voted for a referendum, though she ran the whole election campaign at the GE17 and lost whereas the SNP won, or he probably didn’t point that out.

Brewer’s an old hand though. He’s probably one of the biggest journalistic er, beeb Scotland powers against Scottish democracy and ofcourse the SNP.

BBC r4 Sunday lunch news skip blithely past Spanish police violence too, 38 injured, its illegal anyway, hey diddly ho, its a beeb gimp propaganda life for Scotland.

Beeb r4 news gimp is over in Spain too. It all sounds rather really, as you’d expect. Democracy really stretches and strains BBC tory propaganda right enough.

Bob Mack

We should at this point remind the Catalan people of the wisdom of JK Rowling. If they stay they will “never be in a better position”. The only bit JK missed out was “To be further abused”

Conan the Librarian

337 people injured so far.

heedtracker

Conan the Librarian says:
1 October, 2017 at 1:25 pm
337 people injured so far.

BBC r4 Sunday lunchtime news says 38.

geeo

@giesabrek.

Gie us aw a brek fae this chuntering nonsense.

Catalonia = REGION of Span

Scotland = A COUNTRY in a political union (EQUAL PARTNER, despite appearances).

There is

Lollysmum

@Muscleguy
Thanks for the email address. Polite but blunt email sent (I call a spade a spade)& informing of my personal boycott of all things Spanish & will encourage family & friends to adopt similar measures.

@ Marie Clark at 11.47am
I sent my email long after you Marie (20 mins ago) & it hasn’t bounced back yet!

geeo

There is no comparison.

steff

I just wonder if this will lead to a new movement bigger and badder than ETA ever was. Politely asking for the right to self governance ship sailed today.

Trust me on this, If Scotland had voted for Independence we would be seeing scenes like this here. No way would the Yoons and westminster ever give up Scotland and it’s Natural reasources without bloodshed.

heedtracker

SLabour at work. Get a complaint, delete, otherwise, there’s no depths in the UKOK zone today.

Tom Harris?Verified account @MrTCHarris

Nationalists support nationalism, wherever it occurs

Tom Harris?Verified account @MrTCHarris 52m52 minutes ago

On reflection, I should not have posted an insulting Tweet earlier about Scottish nationalists. Now deleted. Apologies.

Andy Anderson

Awful. What now? Vote will not count due to disruption. UDI would I fear cause violence.

Inkall

If only Spain had learned from London and not allowed things like independent catalan media it would never have got this far.

slackshoe

It’s all too predictable to see who is speaking up for fascism today. The same people who I’ve argued with endlessly about what the appropriate “anti-fascist” response should be, are the same people who would clearly be among the first to roll over in submission when fascists eventually take power.

Brian Powell

I wonder what the %s are of Spanish from rest of Spain and Catalans are? The brit expats would be voting No of course.

Andy-B

Wow!

The democratic will of the Catalonian people pushes back the fascist Spanish Guardia Civil, remarkable footage in my opinion.

link to mobile.twitter.com

Conan the Librarian

@ heedtracker It was standing at that a few hours ago to be fair. I’d rather get my news from the horses mouth than its erse. Catalan News twitter feed.

Ken500

Support for Independence Catalonia 40%+

Support for Indepence Scotland 50%

All Spanish politicians are corrupt liars.

In the UK most of them are corrupt liars.

Jack Murphy

LIVE at the mo. CATALONIA. Peaceful Demo and speeches outside the Spanish Consulate,Edinburgh Scotland.
Lihttp://independencelive.net/vestream:

Robert Roddick

Just when I think that Labour can’t sink any lower. International socialists ? Mon oeil ! If my memory serves me correctly Hitler was acting within the law. Which he made !

Jack Murphy

I’ll try again:
Livestream:

link to independencelive.net

geeo

link to m.facebook.com

Video show police THROWING people down a flight of stairs, mostly women.

One cop seen JUMPING from several stairs ONTO someone he has just thrown down them.

Liz g

What I am wondering is where are the Catalan police in all this?
Should they no be inbeetween the people and the Madrid police.
The must have the stormtrooper kit as well!
Should they no have clamped or towed all they vans day’s ago?
And why did the Catalan government no have their police barracade the port and keep them in?
Surely the Catalan police ARE the law enforcement?

HandandShrimp

The uniformed thugs drafted in to crush ordinary voters have lost the plot. The video evidence is mounting of widespread brutality. I see the Belgian Prime Minister has had enough and has spoken out. I think others will follow. Rajoy still seems to be hiding as does Corbyn (who appears to stand for everything and nothing but fair dos to Kezia for speaking out).

Meanwhile here, I though people like Duncan and Tom Harris jumped the shark a long time ago but they must have invested in jet powered skis. No real surprise that right wing reactionaries like Brian Wilson and Iain Martin have their tutus on and are cheer leading the thugs in uniform (no doubt whilst feeling decidedly moist).

How Rajoy thinks for one fleeting moment that he is winning hearts and minds escapes me. Pure unalloyed stupidity more like.

Robert Kerr

The eyes of the World are on this affront to democracy.

This from the Largest democracy,,,,

link to timesofindia.indiatimes.com.

Arbroath1320

If anyone thought Fascism died when Franco died think again!

THIS is 21st Century Spain!

People of Catalonia going about the PEACEFUL process of trying to vote in a Catalonian referendum are attacked unecessarily and shot at by thugs dressed up as protectors of the FASCISTS who rule Spain from Madrid!

Waht is happening in Catalonia today is evidence, if evidence were in fact needed, that when Franco died his style of Fascism didn’t die it just covered itself with an exttremely thin veil of of Pseudo Democracy!

If the U.N. can,finally, come out and criticise the actoins of Madrid why can’t the E.U.?

What is the E.U. so terrified of that it has kept stumpf over this whole affair?

Robert Peffers

@Marie Clark says: 1 October, 2017 at 11:31 am:

“I never thought that I would see the day. It looks as though that bad bastard Franco is still alive and well. Rajoy, should be dragged before the international court for this, but by the looks of things, I won’t hold my breath.”

There is now no doubt there is now a list of organisations that must make a stand on the issues now besetting Spain and the Catalonian situation.

These include The United Nations, The Council of Europe, The European Parliament and any other Government in the World that classes itself as a democracy.

I have no doubts that the Government of Spain have made a grave error in sending in the brutal state police to deal in such a manner with a democratic and peaceful independence movement. By their actions they have forever lost the argument and Catalonia will, perhaps not immediately, be an independent nation.

No one can forever suppress a democratic wish for self determination. Many empires, including that of Britain, tried and failed to do so and Spain has just blown any hope they had of holding onto Catalonia.

The question is now, will the Council of Europe, The UN and the European Union join Spain in the failure of democracy?

If these organisations fail to take decisive action against the government of Spain then they are no better that the Spanish Government and collude with their actions.

Are we about to see the end of the United Nations, The Council of Europe and the European Union? All of who will be totally irrelevant if they stand by and allow Spain to act so brutally against a democratic movement of a people who only seek a democratic choice of Self determination that is a keystone tenet of the United nations, The Council of Europe and the European Union and of which three organisations the government of Spain is signatory to those tenets.

They must either take action to expel Spain or be classed along with them as anti-democratic. They made the rules so let us see them uphold them now.

Brian Powell

If a policeman gets injured it will be played ad infinitum by the MSM.

Brian Powell

Assuming that if people protest against privatisation of the NHS or against austerity in London, Labour will be happy with whatever the police response is.

HandandShrimp

Brian

One has been injured. A Catalan police officer trying to call for calm was beaten up by the Civil Guard.

I see that Corbyn and Davidson have now condemned the violence. The Spanish Government have crossed the line by a country mile. No one can support this sort of brutality.

William Wallace

I am deeply saddened by what I am seeing today and extremely angry at the same time. The usual suspects making excuses for this level of state violence are utterly despicable human beings (they know who they are). Same goes for those using today’s events for their ongoing SNP bad narrative. Fkin Cnuts the lot of em.

What are the EU doing about this? Should they not be intervening to protect citizens? About time we saw Article 7 invoked and Spain suspended (I won’t hold my breath).

The BBC and other MSM outlets should hang their bloody heads in shame (oh wait they have no shame). As for the Tory and Labour responses (or lack of) to what is happening (don’t even get me started on them halfwits) they are clearly wondering if they might get away with something similar for indyref2 and staying relatively silent.

Having a head in hands moment right now and feeling more than a little teary eyed. Probably best if I don’t say too much more as my anger is rapidly rising at what is currently unfolding and I don’t want to say anything that might later be used against me or the movement out of context.

Welcome to Western Democracy. Pah!

Brian McGowan

Just what kind of men (dressed up in macho uniforms) would hit a young woman with batons (as two did in the video above)?
Unbelievable.

Dan Huil

That ugly British nationalist, Brian Wilson, once again shames Scotland. How he loves to do so!

Another ugly British nationalist, Hothersall, deliberately misquotes the FM. The powers in Westminster and Madrid will be so happy they have such a lying British nationalist on their side.

heedtracker

BBC Scotland’s usual creep out reportage and “images” is their usual sleaze level. These gimps have not actually interviewed Scotland’s First Minister, why would they.

Nicola Sturgeon ‘concern’ over images from Catalonia
1 hour ago
From the section Scotland politics

link to bbc.co.uk

FatCandy

To the Remain voting Indy supporters on this thread now suggesting we abandon the EU as a result of the Catalonian Referendum, let me say this:
* It is not the EU that is perpetrating the violence against the Catalonians, it is the Spanish state
* Should we leave the UN or NATO as neither of these organisations have condemned the actions of the Spanish state or taken any action?

Let’s keep our heads people, Article 7.1 followed promptly by 7.2 of the Lisbon Treat must be applied by the EU to Spain immediately. The EU is massive, give it time.

Liz g

Andy B @ 1.36
Thanks for that Andy Wow indeed…..
That’s it … right there, in that clip, that’s exactly what they are afraid of.
Despite the training, the communications and the body armour.
Those police couldn’t infact dare not use their rehearsed violence,and the people didn’t have to do anything other than walk together.
A lesson for everyone there!
Espically governments as they already know this but have never before been stupid enough to let it get filmed actually happening!
Well done Catilonia X

Andy-B

Spanish fascist Guardia Civil beat firemen with batons, disgraceful behaviour by the fascist thugs.

link to mobile.twitter.com

Brian McGowan

It occured to me that the Spanish Govt would have been better off bringing over the Project Fear team from Indyref1 to advise them.
The Referendum would likely then have been a NO to independence. End of story, for a while at least.

Graemeo Rab

Today and the oncoming days the people of Catalonia must endure . They have already won. However like any crisis the situation will be used as a tool of propaganda.The correct human response is to condemn Spain’s violent actions and support Catalonia in seeking a Democratic solution to it’s Constitutional question. There are many however on Scotland’s and Britain’s Unionist side who will change opinions on speaking out if the situation can be used as leverage with regards Gibralter/EU and Scotland/EU. Just as many may now see The EU inaction as tantamount to Supporting Spain. The next few days will show us clearer picture.

Andy-B

Catalonian civilians running for cover as the fascist Spanish Guardia Civil, fires rounds into the crowded street.

link to mobile.twitter.com

Reluctant Nationalist

I hope the handful of men who ordered this sleep well tonight.

Scottish Steve

So fascism in Europe is not dead after all. I am bitterly disappointed that the EU is not taking Spain to task for this disgusting behaviour. Surely there are Spaniards that are outraged at this and condemning their government’s actions?

Ian Kirkwood

Stu, you may want to share some of this with the BBC. They don’t seem to have access to very much on this disgraceful carnage.

Jack Murphy

Labour’s Socialist Corbyn has been Tweeting all morning about Housing and Tuition Fees.
An hour ago he sensed something was maybe happening in Catalonia:

“Police violence against citizens in #Catalonia is shocking. The Spanish government must act to end it now.”

Andy-B

The Catalonian government asks the EU’s Claude Junker, to apply Article 7 of the European Union Treaty and suspend Spain as a member state.

Article 7 of the European Union Treaty states,
“Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

Duncan Gray

Good work, keep it coming, but one of those liveleak videos is actually an old one of catalan police, not today

Tinto Chiel

Disgraceful scenes, cheered on by Brian Wilson, a man utterly consumed with hatred for the SNP and another International Socialist who secretly despises democracy. If only the Catalans had been Cubans, eh, Brian? Surely time for your ermine.

Waiting for George Galloway to condemn violence against people only wanting to put an X in a box.

Good to see you back commenting, Ruby.

Thanks, Rev, for all the information I can’t access otherwise.

Clapper57

The Messiah has spoken….at last Jezza tweets on Catalonia.

Anyone who remained silent on this atrocity and had to be shamed into commenting is, in my opinion, not a true socialist but a mere political opportunist.

Ladies and Gentleman I give you Jeremy Corbyn.

This is local socialism for local people…..Jezza Brexit style.

brian scott

If this had been Ireland pushing for its independence, what stance would Celtic director, Brian Wilson, have adopted?

asklair

Just saw this, apologies if mentioned before.
link to twitter.com

Andy-B

Finally for now.

Not one word from Britain’s foreign secretary Boris Johnson, on the violent fascist repression going on in Catalonia.

Instead our FS, chooses to focus on how good Saudi Arabia is now, that women have been allowed to drive.

link to mobile.twitter.com

uno mas

Meanwhile the Basques watch, and wait.

blackhack

Under European Treaty Article 7 Spain can be sanctioned for using force against its people. There were members of armed forces and special forces involved in the suppression of the Catalan people and there is video evidence of brutality as some of you may have seen today.
“Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”
Please email your MEP if you feel strongly that this should be invoked.

Scottish MEP’s to email
ian.hudghton@ep.europa.eu
david.martin@ep.europa.eu
nosheena.mobarik@ep.europa.eu
alyn.smith@ep.europa.eu
cstihlermep@btconnect.com
David.Coburn@davidcoburnmep.com

yesindyref2

@Liz g
I don’t think so, that could lead to pitched battles and make the situation appear to be 50-50 in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Tha Catalans absolutely have to remain peaceful, and allow themselves to be hit.

Shinty

Fat Candy – The EU is massive, give it time.

Totally agree.

heedtracker

“We are not afraid!” The chant of the Catalans in Edinburgh.

If history shows us anything about secession, Spain broke up today.

British violence in southern Ireland turned the tide for the Irish republic, as soon as the Irish public saw the level of violence used by the British.

Robert Peffers

@katsoft says: 1 October, 2017 at 11:33 am:

“… EU and UN must intervene before this gets totally out of control”

Two things, katsoft, It is well out of control already and the first, and main organisation, to get involved is the Council of Europe, it is much bigger than the EU. In fact the EU is one of the Council of Europe’s members.

The reasons these organisations must all take immediate action is quite simple. The first reason being that the Government of Spain is a signatory to them all and is thus bound by those organisations rules they signed up uphold.

A main tenet of all three organisations is the right of any identifiable people to, Self Determination.

As far as Human rights are concerned the freedom of self determination of identifiable peoples is a fundamental rule.

The EU is one of the members of the Council Of Europe and thus the EU member states, including Spain, (Catalonia), UK, (Scotland), and Belgium, (Flanders), all have signed up to the rights of identifiable peoples to self determination.

Today’s events in Catalonia show that the government of Spain are forcibly suppressing the democratic will of the Catalans to hold a referendum on their freedom of Self determination and are thus in direct contravention of the treaties they signed up with via the Council of Europe and the EU.

These organisations are legally bound, by their own laws, to intervene and prevent the actual bloodshed we are witnessing right here on Wings today.

Those of you attempting to communicate with the Spanish Consulate in Edinburgh may wish to make that point to the Spanish Consulate.

Here is a link to the Council of Europe – Click the link at the top of the webpage on Human rights:-

link to coe.int

Liz g

Yesindyref2 @ 2.53
I suppose you are right ….. it’s just so horrible to watch and they should be able to get the protection of their own police,but I can see why not.
Although it would be interesting to get a statement from the Catalan police or Government about this.

But I still wonder why the Madrid police were allowed into or out out of that dock.
Surely that’s where the threat to the peace of the people could have been contained.

Welsh Sion

Copy of a letter I sent today to the Observer.

__________________

To the Editor of the Observer
01/10/17
Dear Sir,

If a week is a long time in politics, it is also true that 7 days is an equally lengthy period for the Observer. 

Last week your editorial commented on the seeming disadvantages of not only the independence referendum to be held the following Sunday in Catalonia, but also the very notion of independence for the region (“This referendum will bring no benefit to Catalonia, Spain or the EU”, the Observer 24.09.17.).

You refer to the Scottish analogy whereby you aver that if there was “a single political force with the parliamentary domination, of, say, the Scottish National party, there would be a persuasive case for holding an independence ballot …”, but as those seeing independence come from an “agglomeration of parties”, then “they have little in common but their espousal of this referendum.” 

Your reasoning defies logic on many grounds. Firstly, the Scottish National Party is not alone in advocating independence for Scotland. If we have learnt anything from the 2014 YES Campaign there, it is precisely that fact: YES embraced Scots from all political parties and none in promoting the independence cause, from all quarters of Scottish society. The latest mandate Nicola Sturgeon has for calling a second independence referendum in Scotland was buttressed by the Scottish Green MSPs. Secondly, notwithstanding these facts, Londoncentric journalists have repeatedly issued the cry that “YES equals the SNP alone” as a way of criticising the movement as being solely a Nationalist vehicle. You too seem to want your cake and eat it. Ultimately, the tone of your piece is one of profound negativity – and a plea for Catalonia not to secede from Spain. (Shades of Better Together, anyone?)

Now, try to square the Observer’s reasoning with a subsequent editorial, a week hence (“The Kurds have fought hard for their values. They deserve our support now”, the Observer, 01.10.17.). There is a deep-seated “yearning” for a Kurdistan we are told, They have the “right” to be self-governing and be “free from interference by foreign powers,” a freedom indeed which is, “unceasing and not to be denied.”

One wonders how the Kurds, “like any people conjoined by ethnic identity, land, language and culture, have an inalienable right to determine their future path, in one direction or another”, whereas Catalans (and doubtless the Scots and the Welsh do not.) I’m sure no ambiguity arises from the definition of the word “any” – it can surely only mean that, no matter what human community sharing the attributes listed, has “an inalienable right” to decide its own affairs and pursue the course of independence and freedom. Or is that “right” only accorded to those who have fought physical, bloody battles for it (such as the Kurds) but not those who pursue freedom through non-violent means (such as the Scots and Catalans)? A highly dangerous premise, I fear. 

Comparing both editorials therefore, one is drawn to the conclusion that independence for the Kurds is “a good thing”, whereas freedom for Catalans can only be “a bad thing”. The fact that the former looks like being achieved through the barrel of a gun, and the latter thwarted by similar weapons, and a seemingly liberal, internationalist British newspaper can encourage the Kurds in their stance whilst denigrating the Catalans, is a worrying indictment of Fleet Street thinking. 

One would be tempted to think that there is a hidden message here to uppity, independence-seeking Celts here, too: the United Kingdom Establishment and its Western European counterpart, doesn’t “do” popular, civilian-based, grassroots democracy.

Yours faithfully,       

Colin Alexander

Copy of my letter to the Spanish Ambassador to the UK:

Dear Mr Carlos Bastarreche

I wish to express my concern at the actions of the Spanish Police in Catalonia.

In particular, I wish to protest against what appears to be an excessive use of force and violent conduct being used by the police against citizens in Catalonia.

Whatever view we may hold on the legality of the independence referendum, I see no need for the use of violence by police against people who are not using violence.

Breeks

Ruth Davidson I seem to remember visiting Spain, and trying to cobble together some anti-independence camaraderie with some Spanish organisation… Can anybody else remember the details? Back in 2013 or 2014 or thereabouts… A little bell ringing says there was political money involved too, but I can’t quite remember…

Anybody recall it?

yesindyref2

@Liz g
I know, hard to look at these pictures. But the likes of Davidson and Corbyn have to be very careful, because it could have been “propoganda”, and one-sided.

There’s nothing one-sided though about the Guardia Civil beating up defenceless people, and sadly that’s the way it has to carry on. No counter-violence, no counter-violence and once more – no counter-violence.

The Catalans are obviously brave enough for that, and it does take real absolute courage to do what they’re doing.

uno mas

Barcelona F.C. have just annouced that the match in the game due to start in 10 minutes time will be played behind closed doors and have turned away all those outside waiting to get in.

They have reached this decision after being informed by the more radical sector of supporters that it was their intention to invade the pitch.

However despite the original plan to play in their normal blue and claret strip Barcelona will tonight play in the second strip which of course is the flag of Catalunia.

The visiting team Las Palmas have been ordered by La Liga (the establishment) to wear a jersey which has the Spanish flag on it.

Good grief it´s getting worse!

Dan Huil

@Welsh Sion 3:06pm

Excellent letter. Hope it gets published – in full.

geeo

337 injured by police violence now, and Barca match cancelled.

Al Jazeera has running updates.

Street Andrew

Reports of the death of Franco seem to have been exaggerated.

I feel ….sick actually.

thomas

Good letter @ Welsh Sion.

Not only am i in shock at the violence today in catalonia , but more importantly i am in shock at the silence of the western world , whose chattering classes and political leaders are not normally slow in condemning human rights and democratic abuse in other countries such as north korea.

HandandShrimp

Hope Barcelona stick 10 in the back of the net

According to a report on the Groaniard from someone on the ground, lots of the small villages and towns are happily voting away because there aren’t enough police to go around with all the major concentrations in Barcelona and other large cities.

Graeme

CATALONIA THE BRAVE

Colin Alexander

Copy of letter to Mr Juncker:

Dear Jean-Claude Juncker

I wish to express my deep dismay at the deafening silence of the EU regarding the actions of the Spanish state in Catalonia.

The EU has long expressed it’s view that it promotes and upholds democracy and human rights.

However, it appears that when the Kingdom of Spain’s actions in Catalonia appear to be breaching these values, the EU has nothing to say on the matter, because Spain is a member of the EU.

Furthermore, the EU has long spoken of the rights of EU citizens. Sir, may I take this opportunity to remind you that the citizens of Scotland are EU citizens and they voted by a large majority to remain part of the EU, but this democratic decision by the people of Scotland is being disregarded by the UK and the EU.

The UK is a Union between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England with the principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland. Thus, Scotland is not just a region of the UK but a distinct and sovereign Kingdom.

Many people in Scotland, myself included, feel this decision for Scotland to remain part of the EU should be upheld and defended by the EU in negotiations with the UK Government.

yesindyref2

BBC and Guardian covering it on the websites.

Graeme

Lets face it the Spanish police have done enough the vote is compromised it will never hold water

But i believe the Catalonians have won their independence today

HandandShrimp

Will give the Guardian its due, their coverage on this has been very good and is constantly being updated. The BBC coverage is rubbish. Do they have any foreign correspondents any more…or even a broadband connection?

Bob p

Good letter CA

yesindyref2

And Independent and CNN, euronews with an anti-secession bias very evident.

David Mills

So will the EU & UN take these actions as resignation by Spain from their organisations and Civilised society!

Gerry Gribbons

The undemocratic Spanish authorities should be ashamed of themselves

Ottomanboi

Note well! This is what happens to independence movements when the system really gets serious.
Can imagine Generalissimo Davidson and the unionist legionnaires defending Scots from such ideas above their alloted station.

Robert Peffers

@Calum McKay says: 1 October, 2017 at 11:37 am:

“Spain’s reaction has guaranteed Catalonia’s freedom!”

Yes, Calum. indeed it has.

“the british can no longer use Spain as any form of blocker or warning to Scottish independence, otherwise they are using a fascist regime to make their point.”

That bit, though, is utter rubbish.

First of all, “Those you speak of are not, “The British”, they are the Westminster Establishment Unionists but do not rule all of Britain.

“The British”, legislations also includes all the peoples of the eight, (yes that’s eight), British legislations.

It includes, The Republic of Ireland, The Westminster de facto parliament of the country of England, The Holyrood Parliament of the country of Scotland, the Parliament of Wales, The Parliament of Northern Ireland and the two Channel Island Bailiwicks and the Isle of Man legislatures. All of them are British.

Furthermore, the Government of Spain HAS NEVER EVER said they will veto Scotland’s claims for independence.

The Westminster propaganda machine has been the only organ to make such stupid claims. First of all their oft quoted source was NOT speaking on behalf of the EU as he was NOT elected as an EU MEP- He was Barroso and was the EC. (European Commissioner), and commissioners are the Civil Servants of the EU and Barroso always made quite clear he was giving a personal opinion.

Moreover Barroso was not even Spanish. He is a former Portuguese Prime Minister and, last time I looked, Portugal was not part of Spain.

He was also the EC, (European Commissionaire for Portugal), who subsequently was chosen as President of the European Commission.

Don’t listen to Westminster Propaganda, Calum, it is usually all lies.

Reluctant Nationalist

@ Welsh Sion, re: the strange double standard of the Observer in supporting the Kurds.

Yeah, funny that, isn’t it? I wonder why such cognitive dishrinse. Is real funny.

———————–

Catalonia, you are beautiful.

yesindyref2

Can imagine Generalissimo Davidson and the unionist legionnaires defending Scots from such ideas above their alloted station.

The AP stirrer should know that Davidson has already condemned the police action, and as one of the “unionist legionnaires”, so has Corbyn.

msean

Euronews used the term separatist during the indyref,as did others like cnn,but being pan european/world broadcasters,I thought they would have taken a neutral stance.

Cadogan Enright

Catalonia has it’s own media – so the Spanish have to use force

But in Scotland WESTMINSTER HAS THE BBC

My donation today brings the anti-BBC funder to less than £200 of the half way mark link to gofundme.com

Have you seen the BBC coverage of this entirely peaceful attempt at Independence ???? Help us deal with the BBC

Andy-B

This is what happens when you try to vote, in Catalonia, they break your fingers.

link to mobile.twitter.com

msean

The EU is slow to act,but I think this will be addressed.

maureen

Marie Clark says:
1 October, 2017 at 11:47 am

Muscleguy, thanks for the email address for the Spanish consulate. I duly sent a polite email expressing my disgust at Spain’s handling of the situation, only to have it rejected.

Anyone else having this problem. Have they shut all of their systems down to avoid condemnation, or was I just unlucky. I really was polite and reasonable so it must be my objection that they don’t care for.

I used this link and it hasn’t been rejected yet!
Just click on the email address on the page, write and send.
link to embassy-finder.com

Vestas

@ msean 3:47 pm :

“The EU is slow to act,but I think this will be addressed.”

I don’t.

It still hasn’t dealt with Poland “Truth & Justice Party” completely destroying the rule of law after nearly 2 years – not even a slap on the wrist.

The EU will look the other way – as always.

Robert Peffers

@all those getting at the EU for not yet acting.

Just pause a moment before shooting from the lip.

In the first place the EU is a rather large Parliament and like all parliaments it can really only act legally in a democratic manner. i.e. By calling a debate, proposing a motion, perhaps having the proposal amended or even opposed and then debating and voting upon the motion.

Only then does it get acted upon by the parliament’s civil servants a.k.a, The European Commissioners. I expect, like me, you all regard Tony Blair’s taking the UK to war on only his say so as a war crime. Would not the EU forcibly prevention of the Spanish suppression of democracy in Catalonia not also be a war crime?

As I posted well over a week ago – Spain will lose Catalonia by NOT recognising the Catalan right to self determination. In actual fact the non-violent Catalan response to the Spanish violence is winning them independence.

What a brave nation, I believe I may now call them a nation, those Catalans are. Would that more of my Scots brothers & sisters were so brave – and just brave enough to have put a wee mark on a ballot paper was all that was asked of them.

Andy-B

Julian Assange says:

“Catalan police say 221 of 2,315 polling stations, just under 10% (i.e > 90% not closed), have been closed as of 15:10 today. Unclear how many have been re-opened after closing. Government says 96% open.”

The yes voters of Catalonia, might yet have the last laugh.

Almannysbunnet

The silence from labour is deafening. Ironically Duncan Hothersall and Willie Young would have been better staying silent! The Kingdom of Spain taints all of Europe and if the EU sit on their hands over this the EU truly is in danger. Cannot believe some of the scenes coming out of Catalonia, cowards in body armour attacking old women and children! Switch on the TV and what do I get, Ruth Davidson at the Tory party conference telling us about the strength of her precsious union. I believe I may throw up.

Bruce

Meanwhile Westminster looks on with envy wishing they had the nerve to do the same in Scotland.

yesindyref2

If there’s one thing I hate it’s being accused on the wrong, and I also believe in fairness and honesty when it comes to accusing others on the wrong.

Ruth Davidson has condemened the violence:

link to twitter.com

and so has Corbyn:

link to twitter.com

Robert Graham

Not sure what’s more troubling, these images of a state out of control, or these people on the various tweets defending the actions of what looks like a Facist State out of any type of control.

And the response of the EU is ? The EU we want to continue to be a part of , is this the reaction we are going to get when our referendum is interfeared with , it doesn’t look encouraging does it .

Alex Clark

@HandandShrimp

Yes I agree that the Guardian has been doing a decent job of covering live the events in Catalonia. What of the BBC though? So obvious their omission of reporting events as they actually are.

“Fake News” they don’t trust us shouts Nick Robinson, maybe he should have kept his mouth shut as he has put his foot in it again after today it’s so obvious that the real news is all coming via social media.

Guardian reports over 460 injured so far and also that Spains Interior Ministry have stated:

“Three people, including one girl, have been arrested for civil disobedience and attacking an officer.”

“Nine police officers and three members of the Guardia Civil have been injured so far.”

So over 460 civilians standing up for democracy have been injured, yet only a handful of police. The violence is all one way. Where are the BBC?

link to theguardian.com

Andy-B

The fascist Spanish Guardia Civil, take it upon themselves to club a man aiding a injured man, who had already been beaten by them.

Even when the man falls to the ground, they continue to beat him.

link to mobile.twitter.com

bob

In comparison with Spain, the UK has given Scotland a fair crack of the whip.

If Catalonia benefits from todays madness, does Scotland follow the same route?

cearc

The Spanish have arrived at the polling place where Joanna Cherry is observing.

link to twitter.com

steff

Anyone alse thinking of heading the Catalonia. These people need our help.

Sinky

Indyref2. A bit late and only after Nicola Sturgeon got wide coverage.

Remember how Cameron and Rajoy “consulted” on Scotland and Catalonia

From The Herald Saturday 30 November 2013
DAVID Cameron and the Spanish Prime Minister have held secret talks on independence movements in Scotland and Catalonia,
Spanish media said the two leaders had “decided to co-ordinate” their response to next year’s referendum in Scotland and continuing calls for secession in Catalonia.
The development came to light after Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy asserted an independent Scotland would be “left outside the EU” and required to negotiate membership from scratch with all 28 member states.

Barcelona fc game this afternoon played behind closed doors after police said thay couldn’t provide security. Spanish (Madrid) FA told club they would forfeit three points if game was cancelled.

Should have been obvious that once Civil Guard got involved there would be problems with the game. Latest score 0-0

yesindyref2

Willie Rennie too:

link to twitter.com

and Dugdale:

link to twitter.com

Sarwar commented, as did Leonard, and of course Harvie.

It’s a full house, what would people prefer, Scotland to be divided or together in condemning the violence in Catalonia?

Robert Peffers

@Colin Alexander says: 1 October, 2017 at 3:22 pm:

“Copy of letter to Mr Juncker:
Dear Jean-Claude Juncker”

Oh! Grow up you bloody unionist chancer.

The EU is, in case you had not noticed, a democratic and furthermore a consensus run parliament, I’ll emphasis that bit for you PARLIAMENT.

It thus requires that it has a motion raised for any decisions it takes and that also requires the motion be seconded. It also requires that provision must be made for amendments, (also requiring seconding), to be raised and also for opposing motions to be raised that also require seconding.

Then the house must meet, debate and vote upon the matter. Furthermore, the parliamentarians do NOT take any actions for that is the task of the European Commission, (EU Civil Servants), to organise whatever decision the parliamentarians have decided.

It may not be instant action but at least prevents such war crimes as the Tony Blair decision to take the UK to war on only his say so and based upon what any reasonably well informed person knew was wrong information.

I not only knew that what Blair was claiming as massed armour ready for war was factually old rusting USA/UK provided war machines previously given to Saddam when Saddam had been trained in warfare by the USA who then supported him.

A war based on misinformation and deliberate lies. Yet here you are expecting the EU top officials to wade in on only their say so. In the real World, Colin, such actions can only lead to trouble.

What is required is for cool and well informed heads. Not hotheads acting in haste like those sending in armed police against peaceful citizens in Catalonia.

In any case the prime mover in any actions taken against the Spanish Government should be the Council of Europe of which the EU and their entire member nations are also members.

There are far more members of the Council of Europe than of the EU and all EU member states are members of the Council of Europe :-

Go see for yourself:-

link to en.strasbourg-europe.eu

Graeme

bob says:
1 October, 2017 at 4:22 pm

“In comparison with Spain, the UK has given Scotland a fair crack of the whip.”

Are you serious Bob?

We never got a fair crack of the whip the British are no better than the Spanish They’re just a bit better at this shit than they are, I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options

yesindyref2

@Sinky
I doubt very much if the people of Catalonia care who was first, and how long, or whether they spent time with the kids first, it’s that they’ve all done it.

As for Rajoy he never said that, it’s how the Herald reported it. I know, I commented on that (those) threads, having looked up what exactly was said. Same as Barroso and Van Rompuy, the MSM did it’s usual stuff, someone on Wings (Petra?) actually transcripted the interview with Barroso on the BBC and psoted it on Wings at the time.

Never believe the MSM.

Alex Clark

I’m will not be surprised that reports of only 3 people being arrested are true. After all what are they going to charge those beaten up with.

Guilty of holding your hands up, a breech of the peace. The intent of the Guardia Civil is purely to intimidate those defending democracy and so far it appears to be failing.

Rajoy will be out on his arse though there will likely be worse to come before that happens. The biggest demonstration in support of democracy ever doesn’t look far away. The Spanish government cannot quell this with batons and rubber bullets against such determined support.

They have already lost, the EU must act and condemn this violence.

Ottomanboi

@Robert Peffers
The Scots can truly claim to be a creditable nation and a real people when they stop believing sticking x’s on bits of paper constitutes a act of liberation and that is all it takes. The British state is a tougher entity than the Spanish version, with more powerful psychological as well as physical forces at its disposition. The repressive and anglicizing mission of the British imperium lives on, in our own backyard. Go for it Ruthie! Crush those rebellious Scots! You gorgeous ("Quizmaster" - Ed), you!

Petra

Once again if you want to know exactly what’s going on in this country, and further afield, visit Wings over Scotland.

I thank you for this article Stu: On the other hand it has just made me weep. Young girls, elderly men and women being thrown around like rag dolls. Big burly firemen being pushed around by Franco thugs carrying batons and guns. If support for Independence stood at around 50% previously it’s probably just shot right through the roof now. Does Rajoy really think that any half decent person would want to remain part of this regime? He and his henchmen have just proven to the world that the Catalonians were right in wanting their Independence. What next I wonder? I hear that hordes of anti-Independence supporters are now on the streets. Will they get their Independence or be subjected to even more subjugation and strife? Remain peaceful folks. Don’t fall into their trap.

Els millors desitjos a Catalunya d’Escòcia. Et estem recolzant.

link to youtube.com

Meanwhile the Tories with their plummeting membership are attempting to attract young people into their hard right-wing old fogie party by stating that they’ll review tuition fees. Gordon Brewer affords Ruth Davidson a platform to spout even more lies, circumlocute answering questions and run the SNP / Nicola Sturgeon down to the ground. Good old Gordie another totally inept, biased presenter. Davidson was asked how she felt about the SNP being set to announce a total fracking ban and responded by saying that they are hypocrites due to accepting fracked shale gas from the US. She supports fracking of course. Backs her English Tory bosses plans to rob us of even more revenue whilst totally destroying our country, our health and our industries; and if the Tories get their way in relation to their power grab they could override the SNP decision at a later date.

Over and above power grabs, Snooper’s Charter, plans to regulate the Internet, gagging bill, and so on, they’ve now decided that they’ll give G4S the power to arrest people.

link to evolvepolitics.com

Check out G4S.

‘G4S: a history of discrimination, human rights violations, malpractice and mismanagement in the UK.’’

link to liberty-human-rights.org.uk

And on a personal note I’ve just returned from Arran where 4 out of 5 people (rate fairly risen since the last time I was there) that I met have moved to Scotland from England. Not ONE of them, from what they said / I could see, supports Independence. One guy even said that we don’t have enough people living in Scotland / paying taxes to support an Independent Scotland. Grr!

Between one thing and another it’s time to get out folks. Not after the next election, whenever that may be, or at the end of some single market transitional period. Get out BEFORE March 2019. It’s now or never time.

yesindyref2

@Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options

With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?

There is no national police force in the UK, only “regional” ones.

Brian Powell

bob

If the Brit State had an inkling the vote would get to 45% and closer they would never have agreed to the Referendum. Cameron and the Westminster politicians were assure by Lab in Scotland that the vote would be a massive No.

Dan Huil

@Petra 4:47pm

I agree with your view re. people moving to Scotland from England. Indyref2 must take place soon.

Liz g

And no broadcast news is staying on these developments live.
Just packages being broadcast in the bulletins.
This is disgraceful.
Referendums are a topic in these islands, regardless to how anyone actually votes in them.
We have just had two and because those two votes can’t both be implemented,we will be having a third.
And that vote will be the biggest one,even for England because it will finally also be truly Sovereign also….yay England…yer welcome..
So any referendum of any discription is relevant and this is an on going story!
Then they have the cheek tae wonder why we don’t believe that they will deliver THE news.
It’s like they want us to forget about referendums!

Alex Clark

Well at least the EU are making some noises, from the Revs twitter: Guy Verhofstadt has this to say in a statement.

“I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.”

link to facebook.com

Ottomanboi

yesindyref2
What it is to be so pure of heart….

Graeme

bob says:
1 October, 2017 at 4:22 pm

“In comparison with Spain, the UK has given Scotland a fair crack of the whip.”

Are you serious Bob ?

We never got a fair crack of the whip, the British are no better than the Spanish they’re just better at this shit than they are, don’t think for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they feel they have to they’ve done it before and they’d do again

Eilidh

Horrified by events in Catalonia today. So this the EU in the 21st century. Spain now becomes 3rd country on my banned places list for holidays joining Turkey and USA won’t set foot in them while fascists r

Liz g

Yesindyref2 @ 4.48
G4S….. LOL

yesindyref2

@Liz g
The mind boggles!

Legerwood

Vestas @ 3.53

I think you will find that the EU has and is taking steps against the Polish Law and Justice party but in such cases there is a fine line between intervening to uphold EU policies and intervening when a party is implementing policies it was specifically elected to implement. The latter would certainly be viewed askance.

This article from the Independent sets out the situation in Poland and the EU choices. It also gives some useful info on Article 7 that is relevant to the situation in Spain and should be noted by all those who have mentioned it on here.
link to independent.co.uk

As usual links to the Independent won’t archive.

Invoking Article 7 is

mike d

Wonder if black ops forces in madrid will orchestrate some kind of “attack/incident ” tonight on their police. To legitimise an even more hard handed approach on the catalan independence movement?

Brian Powell

Expect a Turkey style cull of officials in Catalonia by the Spanish Government.

galamcennalath

Remember, the Tories put soldiers in police uniform to deal with miners.

Graeme

yesindyref2 says:
1 October, 2017 at 4:48 pm

@Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options”

With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?

There is no national police force in the UK, only “regional” ones.

Yeah you’re right and it comes as a great comfort to know the Westminster mob have no way to forcibly suppress anything they consider sedition, i appologise

Dave McEwan Hill

Petra at 4.47

It is indeed now or never time. If the SNP delays an announcement for a referendum much longer it is goodbye to the SNP and to the Independence cause.

Many parts of rural Scotland are becoming mini Englands already and it is an accelerating trend as the Scots in these areas cannot match the buying powers of the southerners.

Robert Peffers

@Robert Graham says: 1 October, 2017 at 4:20 pm:

“And the response of the EU is ?

So, tell us, Robert, exactly who it is in the European Parliament what should make the decision – all by themselves without the parliament’s say so, to take action?

Furthermore, what action is it you want that person to instigate?

Now bear in mind that the members of the EU parliament are members of parliament and have absolutely no individual powers to order any actions.

Not only that but the EU’s Civil Servants are European Commissioners – the clue is in the name, (Commissioners are paid for servants), who cannot act until ordered to do so by the parliament after a democratic debate and vote.

The EU isn’t a UK or Spanish like set-up where the leader of the parliament is a virtual dictator. It works by consensus and democratic vote. Even to the extent that every member state, no matter how small, get their turn of holding the EU presidency.

Undeadshaun

@Dave McEwan Hill

“Many parts of rural Scotland are becoming mini Englands already and it is an accelerating trend as the Scots in these areas cannot match the buying powers of the southerners”

That statement is bullshit, just trying to stir up racism.

Have you pulled weekend shift and stuck in 77th baracks this weekend?

Alex Clark

Ottomanboi says:
1 October, 2017 at 4:47 pm
@Robert Peffers
The Scots can truly claim to be a creditable nation and a real people when they stop believing sticking x’s on bits of paper constitutes a act of liberation and that is all it takes.

Ottomanboi says:
1 October, 2017 at 5:01 pm
yesindyref2
What it is to be so pure of heart….

The correct word is credible not creditable. Isn’t sticking X’s on bits of paper what the Catalonians are defending right now? I take it you disagree?

Your not a Scot that much is obvious, any Scot would never begin a sentence with “The Scots can truly claim”. Surely they would start with “We Scots” or even just “We”.

Your comments are not worth the overtime your being paid.

David

I assume the Labour party now support the treatment of those on picket lines deemed illegal by Thatcher.

Hope they’ll explain why we had an EU ref when the UK had already voted to join EU and why we have a Scottish parliament when Scotland voted against it in the 70s

Gary45%

Anyone know the Catalan for “I am Catalonia”

Hamish100

Indy ref2

The politicisation of the police such as the miners strike should not make us complacent. I think with the Scottish FM oversight rather than the impotent SOSS then we might be better off.

Ottomanboi

In the present political context and with the likes of Davidson dishing strategic ‘advice’ a second independence referendum is unlikely to be approved by Westminster, as for BritState 2014 settled imatters once and for all. Should we see ourselves in a similar situation to the Catalans I trust we should not be found wanting.

Undeadshaun

From thr gaurdian.

“The Foreign Office spokesperson has commented on today’s events in Catalonia.

The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us.”

Note wording strength and unity, says it all.

Breeks

yesindyref2 says:
1 October, 2017 at 4:48 pm
@Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options”

With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?”…

Cough! Cough! Miners strike. Trumped up “illegality” contrived with the courts then heavy handed politicised police implementation at the sharp end.

Cough! Cough! Battle of George Square 1919 Glasgow – tanks on the street of Glasgow.

And don’t forget Boris Johnston’s water cannon enterprise for London. An embarrassing and shameful waste of public money, but so was the water cannon. But the intent was clear, and from a currently serving government minister.

Cough! Cough! Don’t forget Northern Ireland either, complete with army snatch squads… and incidentally, here’s a wee picture from 2013…. to my eye that police get-up looks uncannily similar to the Guardia Civil. – link to bbc.co.uk

Can’t happen here eh? I hope you’re right.

Did you happen to see the Spanish police being dispatched from all over Spain to control the referendum in Catalonia being cheered by the Spanish crowds, chanting “Go and get the *#!?!”. Is it such a stretch for the imagination to think some day these might conceivably be police and soldiers from the Met and Greater Manchester being cheered on their way by the likes of UKIP and the EDL, heading North to prevent a Scottish referendum which Westminster has declared illegal? Just imagine that it’s Scottish Fireman getting a skelp with a baton for coming between the riot police and Scottish voters. Is it such a stretch?

You are also forgetting the Unionists self appointed militia in waiting. “Arrows cost money. Send in the walking lobotomies of the OO”.

Abulhaq

Gary45
Jo soc Catalunya!

Robert Louis

Watching as heavily armed Guardia Civil fascist officers literally throw unarmed young women down flights of stairs, and then kick them, Punch young women in the face, then hit them full force in the face with their batons, should make any sane person angry at Mariano Rajoy. Blood is on his hands. He will be remembered as the man who through stupidity absolutely guaranteed the break up of Spain.

Spain is the shame of Europe. Mariano Rajoy should be arrested, and taken to the hague.

yesindyref2

@Hamish100
Indeed, we should not be complacent. But the rule of Law still exists in both the UK and Scotland, and no other police force has jurisdiction in Scotland, unless invited by Police Scotland. That would be the equivalent of the Catalonian Police inviting Madrid police!

Commentater

The despicable and disgusting show of fascism in Catalonia prompts me to urge everyone around this world to think a few seconds about the sickening Unprovoked violence against peaceful voters in Catalonia which is reminiscent of the fascist miscreants of the recent past, like stalin, hitler and more relevant to the region franco, now make a concious decision to Boycot Anything from Spain, be it cars, produce anything in fact, Voice your protest and help bring change to the belegured good folks of Catalona also if you are thinking of a holiday stay in Spain, if youve booked for Spain to visit., just try to think how you/ your family or children would have been affected if you were innocently caught up in unprovoked-violence æike weve witnessed here today, right in europe!

Cancel any and all trips to Spain, boycot spanish products/produce, please USE your voice to help put a stop to such Unwarrented violence against folk JUST like you or I, this time action WILL speak a Lot louder than words. Be safe folks

Ottomanboi

@Alex Clark
This site is unique in allowing the free expression of opinion, varied opinion. Because my propositions do not accord with yours I am consequently not a Scot…..thanks for that. Suggest you look up the meaning of ‘creditable’.

Andy-B

Gary45%.

This might help.

link to spanishdict.com

Gary45%

I think the Catalan situation is a wake up call to the rest of the world.
Democracy which ever way it is tarted up, DOES NOT EXIST.
Genuinely thought if our next Indy was no again we were off to Spain, even with the Brexit shambles we thought it was still worth while, after todays display from the Spanish authorities, (they are as corrupt as Westminster,) the grass definitely doesn’t look greener, then again the Catalan region has shown the guts and spirit against a barbaric ruling government.
So if No, Catalonia here we come.(mibees)

geeo

@ottomanboi @5.44.

You forget a crucial factor…WM do NOT “approve” a referendum.

It’s a common error amongst anti indy supporters.

The SG can hold a referendum ANY TIME THEY LIKE.

Andy-B

Abulhaq.

You are correct in your translation well done.

link to google.co.uk..69i57.8826j0j7&client=tablet-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

geeo

Oops…premature posting…

WM do not approve a referendum, they issue a Section 30 order, which is NOT approval. A section 30 is merely a temporary devolution of the powers required for the SG to organise a referendum, which both sides respect the result. In other words, it (S30) makes the indyref legally binding.

In the unlikely event of WM with-holding a Section 30, the WM gov are basically breaching the Act of Union and the treaties within it.

The referendum mandate is the EXPRESS WILL of the Scottish People through a democratic election process. If WM try to deny that sovereign will in any way, they have ended the Union.

That is why a referendum WILL be held, and a S30 WILL be given. Sure, they will try to fudge it until after brexit, but U.N. Charter 1514 is very clear on that very subject.
……..

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
………

In other words, Now IS the fecking time.

Robert Peffers

What really got to me was an English woman, supporting Spain, claiming that, “Nationalism only causes violence”.

Did the moronic bitch not realise it is the nationalism of the Spanish people that is propagating the violence and the Catalans are not responding to it with violence?

This woman is an Englander who quite obviously doesn’t recognise that the evil form of nationalism in the UK is that of English/British nationalism and she is part of that and blind to its very existence? English/British nationalism is without doubt xenophobic and there is a general fear and hatred of, “Johnny Foreigner”, flowing through many English veins.

The cause of Scottish nationalism is inclusive and we believe that it doesn’t matter where you are originally from, what religious beliefs you hold or what colour you are that makes you a Scottish person it is because you have chosen to be a Scottish person is all that matters.

My late wife and I, many years ago, were walking up the Edinburgh Royal Mile during the Festival. I knew the Capital well having lived there for many years but my wife had been only an occasional visitor to the city.

We came upon a very large person with lots of facial hair and wearing the full national regalia of the Sikhs. Except his turban and his sash were in the Sikh Tartan. He was standing outside his own shop and speaking to passers by to come in an brows his shop’s wares.

I passed the time of day with him and said We’d come in but had to meet my son first. I got the surprise of my life when the Sikh answered me with my own name.

Turned out he had been a classmate when we were at school together but I had not recognised him behind the facial hair. Like myself he had been an SNP supporter all his life. In fact he was a Leither born and bred and a child of several generations of Leithers going back hundreds of years.

Robert J. Sutherland

Isn’t it all too sadly typical of the usual Labourite suspects that they can see an absolutely egregious affront to democracy and human rights without immediately siding with the neo-Franco “legalists” instead!

What completely exposed hypocrites and fakers!

It even takes the Saviour ages to realise there might just be a wee problem here, even though it doesn’t involve the downtrodden basket-weavers of Venezuela or somesuch.

What we see here though, despite the unfortunate bloodletting and anguish, is hugely impressive. Ordinary people not willing to be deterred by any threat or actual violence from organised paramilitary militia, and exercise their right to be heard by simply casting their vote. They are to be applauded. Their resolute defence of democracy is a positive lesson to us all.

And in fact by doing so, as I believe we shall see in due course, they have won.

Davie Oga