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Wings Over Scotland

Homage To Catalonia

Posted on October 01, 2017 by

We’ll be keeping this post updated throughout the day with news as it comes in.

Remember as you look at these images: this is a modern European state reacting to an entirely peaceful democratic movement and process in 2017.

Even Katie Hopkins found it all a bit too much.

As did at least one Scottish Tory MSP:

The great internationalists of Scottish Labour, however, had their own take.

Fair makes you glow with comradely solidarity, doesn’t it?

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  1. 01 10 17 21:07

    Catalonia Won Today! | the

  2. 03 10 17 18:17

    When Territorial Integrity Meets Self Determination | A Wilderness of Peace

482 to “Homage To Catalonia”

  1. Nigel says:

    Perfect summary of events so far. The EU in 2017. Never thought I would see the like.

  2. Calgacus says:

    Thank you for showing the disgraceful scenes that are coming from Catalonia.
    I hear that the Catalonians are now preparing to declare UDI tomorrow as Spain has effectively crushed democracy.

  3. heedtracker says:

    SLabour are beyond hideous now.

  4. Legerwood says:

    And Labour remains silent apart from Wilson’s less than stellar contribution.

    Is this perhaps the reason for Labour’s silence – solidarity with their fellow leftists in Catalonia who do not support the nationalist/separatist cause? From the Guardian today

    Apparently there is a substantial left wing in Catalonia and they do not support those seeking independence. Sounds familiar.

  5. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    A paramilitary Police force exists not to defend the State and the People from outside threats but the inner Elite and Rulers from the People.

    It is the physical repressive arm of a State which has not cleansed itself of its fascist past

  6. James Sneddon says:

    I never in my life thought Labour could get any lower but those comments sicken me would not be out of place in 1930’s Germany. Spain shows itself ti be incapable of casting off its fascist past, stupid, stupid Spain

  7. Andy-B says:

    This is just terrible, my heart goes out to the poor folk of Catalonia, who just want to vote on their future, without violence.

    The Catalonian government must document all the cases of physical assaults. The UN is a disgrace not overseeing the vote, UDI is the only route now for the people of Cattalonia.

  8. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Any odds on the EU stepping in to sort this out, if at all?

  9. geeo says:

    Hopefully this is not a catalyst to a return of armed violence by the likes of ETA.

    UDI being reported as likely in the next 48hrs, possibly regardless of the “result”.

    This will FORCE the U.N. and the EU to act.

    Interesting times ahead for sure.

  10. One_Scot says:

    I’ve not felt this sad in a long time.

  11. heedtracker says:

    SLabour goons back this?

  12. Abulhaq says:

    The proud Scot Brian Wilson might turn his attention to the ‘ugly nationalism’ among the unionists of Spain and the UK, some of it bearing the official stamp of approval. Their now little empires are under threat; unleash the ravening dogs of the state and media machine.

  13. Cmonindy says:

    Qui tacet consentere. Silence gives consent. The Unionist parties give consent to the tactics and behaviour of the Spanish government.

  14. Cmonindy says:

    Qui tecat consentere. Silence gives consent. The Unionist parties give consent to the tactics and behaviour of the Spanish government.

  15. Fred says:

    Brian Wilson! what’s the Gaelic for “Shite!” again!

  16. Phronesis says:

    A liberated and united Europe emerged out of the ashes of a devastating conflict by mixing traditional values and the promise of modernity,reconciling humanistic and religious values with the institutions of government.
    The Spanish government has disgraced itself today and should be ostracised. A mature liberal democracy does not fear expressions of democracy.

  17. Muscleguy says:

    This is the email address of the Spanish consulate in Edinburgh:

    I have sent them a polite email pledging never to buy Spanish produce and never to travel to Spain outside of Catalunya.

    I urge everyone else to get in touch with them and politely express our outrage at Spanish actions.

  18. donald anderson says:

    You will notice Brian Wilson’s weakly column in the Hootsmon is adored by right wing Loyalist online readers.

  19. Bradford Millar says:

    what can the EU do to Spain … it’s a internal matter ?? do they threaten to kick them out ??

    but Labour show their true colours and lack of class yet again

  20. Marie Clark says:

    Jeez oh, I thought this was the 21st century, That’s no way to sort anything out. Violence never solves anything.

    I reckon that the people of Catalonia will now be more determined than ever to have their independence. All that Spain will have done, is strengthen their resolve.

    How stupid has Spain been in the handling of this referendum? The Spanish reputation is in tatters, the EU shown up to be a sham, unable or unwilling to protect their own citizens.

    I never thought that I would see the day. It looks as though that bad bastard Franco is still alive and well. Rajoy, should be dragged before the international court for this, but by the looks of things, I won’t hold my breath.

  21. katsoft says:

    So sad to see this in a so called democracy. Could never happen here.
    Oh wait Scotland was threatened with invasion if we voted yes.
    EU and UN must intervene before this gets totally out of control

  22. Brian Powell says:

    Gives us a good pointer to what our Labour in Scotland will accept in future democratic processes.

    So, if people protest to protect the NHS in London they will be OK with whatever the police do.

  23. Nigel says:

    I am greatly saddened and (as a remain voter) hugely disappointed that the EU remains silent on this. A crisis for the EU could fall out of this situation and for once, I won’t be sympathetic…

    So much for reforming the EU. All empty words…My independent Scotland in Europe stance is changing. I wonder if we would not be much better off in the Nordic community.

  24. Brian Powell says:


    Yes, when a Westminster politician said they would bomb Scottish airports if Scotland was Independent.

  25. Ghillie says:

    This is terrifying.

    These are not isolated incidents.

    The Spanish police brutality is happening in many different locations. Under orders and as trained I presume.

    ALL the footage I have seen is of people sitting, standing or walking, then being flung, kicked, shoved, dragged and shot at by robo-style cops.

    And still not retaliating with violence in return. The voters are not even able to protect themselves.

    The peaceful restraint of the Catalans is incredible.

    Why would any body of people want to stay a part of a country that treats their ‘own’ like that?


  26. Calum McKay says:

    Spain’s reaction has guaranteed Catalonia’s freedom!

    the british can no longer use Spain as any form of blocker or warning to Scottish independence, otherwise they are using a fascist regime to make their point.

  27. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Shame on the Spanish government this behaviour is not acceptable.

    Shame on the UKOK party’s and Westminster the silence can never be forgotten you will never have credibility again.

    Very difficult for the EU how can they explain their silence?

  28. Clapper57 says:

    According to Cat Boyd on Twitter – ” If you see this and say nothing YOU ARE COMPLICIT”…..hmm….or Cat maybe if you vote Labour then you too are complicit.

  29. euan0709 says:

    Seem that the Herald/Sunday Herald ? have now blocked comments on this outrage !

  30. Tony Little says:

    Article 7 of the EU treaty specifically refers to the use of force by police/military against a country’s own population. Spain is clearly in breach of this condition and should be summarily suspended. Will EU act?

  31. seanair says:

    How’s the BBC doing?

  32. Marie Clark says:

    Muscleguy, thanks for the email address for the Spanish consulate. I duly sent a polite email expressing my disgust at Spain’s handling of the situation, only to have it rejected.

    Anyone else having this problem. Have they shut all of their systems down to avoid condemnation, or was I just unlucky. I really was polite and reasonable so it must be my objection that they don’t care for.

  33. geeo says:

    Interesting report on NDTV (New Dehli TV).

    (Never going to hear this on Uk MSM)

    They are reporting that local catalan police are NOT getting involved in the crackdown by police.

    They are apparently being helpful to people trying to vote.

    Even worse news for Madrid, when the Catalan police are refusing to go along with your subversion of democracy.

    Having a police force onside when Catalan gov declares UDI is a HUGE booster.

  34. Andrew Morton says:

    As Westminster discovered in 2014, an independence referendum is as much a political learning curve for the voters as it is a vote. And Madrid is doing its utmost to ensure that the lesson is learned.

  35. Marie Clark says:

    Bradfor Millar @ 11.31 Spain maybe regard this as an internal matter, but it is EU citizens that they’re currently knocking seven bells out of.

    Article 7 forbids the use of police/ military against their own population. So where the hell are they then, or are they all feart to put their heids above the parapet.

    This is an international disgrace, not just an internal matter, so where are all the voices in support of the peoples rights.

  36. Could someone please remove Gordon Brewer from up the fat arse of Ruth Davidson before he expires.

  37. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Madrid is doing everything wrong and no listening to anyone of sense.

    Machismo is a Spanish word.

  38. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Marie Clark @ 11.47

    I also sent a polite email it seems to have went without trouble.

    No doubt deleted by now.

  39. I am in Barcellona now and can’t find a single person who doesn’t want a vote.

  40. geeo says:

    Brewer..”what does the sign behind you say…”?

    RD….(reads it out)

    Brewer…”there you go, you got your propoganda slogans over…” made sure of that you fecking patsy.

  41. Marie Clark says:

    Article 7 also calls for the suspension of any country that uses
    police/military force against it’s own people.

    What are you waiting for boys?

    Sorry EU totally and utterly diminished in my eyes.

  42. Bob Mack says:

    I stand with the Catalan people today ,and every future day in my lifetime. They have real courage.

  43. heedtracker says:

    Tony Little says:
    1 October, 2017 at 11:45 am
    Article 7 of the EU treaty specifically refers to the use of force by police/military against a country’s own population. Spain is clearly in breach of this condition and should be summarily suspended. Will EU act?

    Article 7 of the European Union Treaty;
    “Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

    Still nothing from Jezza Corbyn too. What a pack of charlatans they are.

  44. R-type Grunt says:

    This is a fucking outrage!

  45. Andy-B says:

    Craig Murray has a good article on how NATO went to war to defend the right to self-determination of the Kosovans, which Kosovan secession was claimed as illegal by Serbia.

    Yet the democratic rights of the Catalonian people are violently denied.

  46. Mike says:

    If there ever was a case for a United Spain then they threw it away today.
    Every living soul on the planet has a basic human right to free themselves from the kinds of Governments who use military force to extend its will on its own people.
    Its one thing to quell violent rioting and looting with force but to default to force on people exercising a Democratic choice peacefully and without rancour only goes to justify the need for that Democratic choice to be respected and ratified by the EU and UN.

  47. David Ross says:

    I will not be going to Spain again for holidays. Rev- could you post the names of the cruise liner companies that have hired out their ships to the Spanish Govt to use as barracks in Barcelona. Lets boycott Spanish goods, holidays and these cruise companies.

  48. Heather McLean says:

    Dear @JunckerEU :
    Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
    “Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

  49. Abulhaq says:

    As in Scotland it is the older leftist generation who shun ‘separatism’, the Brian Wilson type.
    In Catalonia these people are meeting their nemesis.
    Ironic that the interests of the orthodox British/Spanish left accord on this matter with those of the right.

  50. Hamish100 says:

    Labours Brian Wilson supports the facist like behaviour of Madrid’s paramilitary.What a low life. It is indefensible.

    Should we not organise a demonstration that thuggery by a state against people wishing to vote is a crime against the people.
    Disgraceful scenes.

  51. geeo says:

    Good old beeb…

    Brewer just stated that…

    “im not sure its fair to say its a nasty situation, i mean, i dont think anything worse has happened than what you might see in the average demonstration in any big city, but it could get quite nasty”.

    There you have it folks…the BBC verdict on the subversion of democracy by the state.

    Un fucking believable.

  52. Lochside says:

    So it has come to this…the actual return of fascism on the European continent. Anyone looking at these brutal images of booted and masked thugs masquerading as police, attacking elderly, middle-aged and young peaceful citizens for having the temerity to actually vote and does not feel sorrow and rage, cannnot be human. Or a state shill, like Brian Wilson and his despicable fellow slab ‘comrades’.

    The silence of the EU is salutory for those of us who still longed to remain within it because of its protections buit in, apparently, to support citizens’ rights. It now seems that the EU and our continuing status within it is a chimera..something to be re-evaluated in light of the collusion of silence by all the large states, who obviously do not wish ‘secession’ to succeed.

    Democracy and the sovereignty of small nations seems to be nothing but a fanciful notion in the current political world and one not to be indulged with. The question for us now is…if Spain nullifies the referendum but ignites violent reaction within Catalonia…where does that leave our peaceful and democratic progress towards a legally validated Referendum?
    Will the UK use Catalonia to impose its own nascent fascist power and prevent it happening?

  53. tom kane says:

    Spain has just left the building. Europe looks worse than Trumpland today. I loved that the Catalans came here in 2014… And that they stood with us even as the Britnats had the US president say discouraging things, and the European Union lined up behind Rajoy and the Commonwealth onboard… As Spain throws much worse at you, thank-you Catalonia, you deserve your vote, and you have many new friends. Here is wishing you the spirit of Pablo Casals and the right to self-determination.

    Now is the time. Respect.

  54. Wull says:

    With shocking scenes like these it is now sure beyond all doubt that Spain has lost it. ‘Lost it’ in every sense: Catalan independence is now a certainty.

    Spain cannot recover from this. If they had allowed the vote to go ahead peacefully, they might just have won. Whatever the outcome, they would at least have retained some kind of moral authority. Now, having lost all semblance of such authority, they will have driven those who were wavering or unsure into the pro-independence movement.

    The tactics might be different, but if we win Indref2 we should be ready for all kinds of hostility. Our Southern neighbour will not let us go so easily, I am sure, and will do everything they can to spoil the party. For once thing, illegitimate though it is, I expect they will try to deny the unitary nature of Scotland, fomenting secession in places like the Southern Uplands and the Northern Isles.

    We must be ready for that kind of thing. What will be unleashed on us after we win will shock us beyond belief. The English state, we will discover, not only is not but never has been our friend. It should not be so, but the likelihood is that it will be very ugly indeed.

    As it would have been in 2014 if we had won.

    The truth is: we haven’t seen anything yet.

    Of course, let’s hope it doesn’t happen that way. Let’s hope that fair play and decent conduct will come out on top. But let’s not fool ourselves; let’s not bank on it. Be ready for the worst …

    Meanwhile, time to press ahead, and get on with it. Faint hearts never won anything … We have to win it, and then stand firm, no matter what gets thrown at us.

    Independence can’t come fast enough …

  55. Andy-B says:

    Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are currently tweeting about housing matters.

    Not a peep from both over the fascist violence occuring in Catalonia right now.

  56. Hamish100 says:

    If the EU don’t intervene to protect EU citizens our referendum will have to have a clause of independence in EFta.
    Spain is now a facist state allied by the Ruk’s

  57. Jean Nisbet says:

    Had my first encounter with the Guardia Civil on the Franco-Spanish border in 1970. They haven’t changed.

  58. Alex Clark says:

    Exactly what kind of a state uses riot police and rubber bullets to prevent a democratic vote? The Spanish state.

  59. Hamish100 says:

    Labours Brian Wilson supports the facist like behaviour of Madrid’s paramilitary.What a low life. It is indefensible.

    Should we not organise a demonstration that thuggery by a state against people wishing to vote is a crime against the people.
    Disgraceful scenes.
    Isis is a terrorist organisation. So is the Spanish paramilitary it seems

  60. sinky says:

    Live coverage on Euro news which has just quoted Nicola Sturgeon

  61. DaveyM says:

    Staggering in both the horror of the Spanish police and the utterly (and predictably) contemptuous response from Labour.

  62. liz says:

    This is unbelievable and shocking.
    We knew it was going to happen but is much worse than expected.

    Duncan Hothershall is supporting facism, true face shown.

    Spain and the folk who support them should never be allowed to forget this

  63. admiral says:

    James Sneddon says:
    1 October, 2017 at 11:17 am
    I never in my life thought Labour could get any lower but those comments sicken me would not be out of place in 1930’s Germany. Spain shows itself ti be incapable of casting off its fascist past, stupid, stupid Spain

    We should never forget that the legally appointed Chancellor of Germany Hitler became the legally sanctioned dictator. All subsequent murder, torture, waging of war and oppression was legally sanctioned by the state. The branch office “logic” thus supports fascism as a legitimate form of political expression.

  64. geeo says:

    Not convinced condemning the EU and U.N. at this time is appropriate to be honest.

    Events will be addressed AFTER the full story emerges later tonight and tomorrow.

    Instant reaction by international bodies is not going to happen, but that is not to say there will be NO action.

    If, as reported, the Catalan government declares UDI in the next 48 hrs, it would be completely inappropriate for the EU and U.N. to comment today on the actions of the Spanish Government.

    Just how these things work.

    If that UDI happens, things will get interesting real quick, as the EU and U.N. will NEED to respond.

    Bit early to trash talk the EU in respect of Scotland,we risk falling into a self triggered trap there imo.

  65. Artyhetty says:

    Absolutely horrendous. They ar attacking the people they insist should want to stay part of Spain! WTAF!

    That must be terrifying, look at who they are targeting, anyone, old, young it doesn’t matter to them. And the actual fckg armour these robots working for the Spanish police are wearing. Cowards.
    This is not a riot, the people are not looting, attacking anyone or anything, yet the Spanish police do this?!

    I will not be buying anything Spanish from now on, I thought they were a civilised modern country, but no, just backward, oppressive right wing extremists.

    What a sad day. As for the EU, if they don’t do not come out and condemn this oppression and violence against the Catalans, they will have lost my support.

    As has benn mentioned, perhaps a we should think seriously about a Nordic type of membership. Have as little to do with the EU as possible.

    What are other EU member states saying about this? I know brexit little britnat britain doesn’t give too hoots even if people are killed by Spanish police.

    Very sad, very angry.

  66. Not Convinced says:

    Wull said on 1 October, 2017 at 12:18 pm
    Spain cannot recover from this. If they had allowed the vote to go ahead peacefully, they might just have won. Whatever the outcome, they would at least have retained some kind of moral authority.

    Indeed, though it’s sobering when you realise that by comparison David Cameron now appears to be a thoughtful & responsible statesman with his eye on the ball and his mind on the long term consequences!

  67. heedtracker says:

    Colonel Ruth, to Sir Gordon Brewer,


    The Colonel is not amused.

  68. geeo says:

    Catalan police force NOT helping the Madrid police in any way.

    This reported on NDTV network earlier.

  69. Kenny Martin says:

    Fascism returns to Spain in 2017. If you tolerate this…

  70. heedtracker says:

    On BBC Politics web site? absolutely nothing, a total BBC black out on Catalonia today. They really are a pack of neo fascists in that outfit. Hell mend them.

  71. artyhetty says:

    re;not convinced@12.38

    Nah, Cameron had the whole of the media on his side, he even employed celebs, and even Obama and the queen to oppose Scot indy before we even voted! He did not need to bring in the troops, that time. They knew they would secure their no vote, by hook or by crook, look at what untRuth said about postal votes! They, the tories, UK state, approved by all britnats, ie, Labour, Libdums, and with UKIP hanging around like a bad smell, they had it in the bag.

    It could be different next time, but the again, the stakes are less on the side of independence, for now. Just wait until Brexit really kicks in. My anti SNP, anti Scotindy retired friends are thinking of, ‘moving up to Scotland’. Yep, but they will be voting yes if I have anything to do with it!

    A very bad look for Spain today, and the EU in fact.

    If they want this kind of world for our kids, nevermind climate change etc, they really have lost the fckg plot!

  72. handclapping says:

    Good old beeb, clashes they say. When they show us pics of the voters attacking the police then they can use clashes. Until that time they should report police attacking voters but it would be unconciousable for the BBC to report the truth so “clashes” it is

    PS just what did HAMMERS do?

  73. Giesabrek says:

    Silence from Westminster suggests to me they’re watching closely to see how successful this strategy is in suppressing the attempt at Catalan independence. If strong arm tactics are successful against an “illegal” vote then I can see similar tactics against indyref2.

    Think about it, WM refuse to agree to indyref2 (they’re already saying there’s no mandate for it) then claim any attempt to hold indyref2 is illegal. Follow Spain’s tactics and suppress it by sending in jackboots into polling stations. Then sit back and listen to silence from the EU and the international community.

  74. heedtracker says:

    Catalan referendum: Clashes as voters defy Madrid
    1 hour ago
    From the section Europe

    As usual, bbc by-line free, but exactly how beeb Scotland gimps described neo fascist britnat thug assaults, George Square, Glasgow after ref1. Probably same bbc headline writers too.

  75. Andy-B says:

    Colonel Ruth Davidson, describes the violent events being played out in Catalonia, as a “Fast moving situation.” And not a violent fascist putdown of democracy.

    Did I just miss something?

  76. Ruby says:

    This action by the Madrid Gov. doesn’t come as a surprise to me. It’s what I expected. I was never really convinced that the Spanish Falangistas just disappeared overnight because Franco died.

    They’ll be loads of people in Spain who think the behaviour of the Guardia Civil is perfectly acceptable.

  77. Macart says:

    A 21st century modern western democracy. Not so you’d notice.

    Those scenes are appalling.

  78. Brian Powell says:


    Of course Brewer pointed out that Holyrood voted for a referendum, though she ran the whole election campaign at the GE17 and lost whereas the SNP won, or he probably didn’t point that out.

  79. galamcennalath says:

    IMO Spain has now made Catalan independence a certainty. And soon.

  80. Lenny Hartley says:

    Wasn’t Brian Wilson a member of the SNP in Dunnon (dave Mcewan Hill?) and chucked it when he was told he wasn’t good enough to stand for office?

    Any thought I had that Scotland should be a full member of the EU have gone out the window today, the EU are as culpable as the Spanish government today, one public announcement from the EU would have stopped the violence against innocent democrats.

  81. Thomas Valentine says:

    I wonder if Ruth Davidson knows any of the Spanish National Police? You know from her little private meetings at the Conservative Party Conference.
    How’s your side of the deal look now Ruth?

  82. Giving Goose says:

    What happens when Right Wing governments want to distract the populace from internal problems?

    They invade somewhere.

    Watch out Gibraltar.

  83. Glamaig says:

    plans for no Brexit deal are underway

  84. Stuart McTavish says:

    Looking at these sad scenes it appears that staggeringly incompetent mismanagement will make Indy for Catalonia inevitable – as such a great opportunity for penny-wise Scots butts presents itself in the form of an amalgamated football league … Will we have the wit to take it?

  85. heedtracker says:

    Of course Brewer pointed out that Holyrood voted for a referendum, though she ran the whole election campaign at the GE17 and lost whereas the SNP won, or he probably didn’t point that out.

    Brewer’s an old hand though. He’s probably one of the biggest journalistic er, beeb Scotland powers against Scottish democracy and ofcourse the SNP.

    BBC r4 Sunday lunch news skip blithely past Spanish police violence too, 38 injured, its illegal anyway, hey diddly ho, its a beeb gimp propaganda life for Scotland.

    Beeb r4 news gimp is over in Spain too. It all sounds rather really, as you’d expect. Democracy really stretches and strains BBC tory propaganda right enough.

  86. Bob Mack says:

    We should at this point remind the Catalan people of the wisdom of JK Rowling. If they stay they will “never be in a better position”. The only bit JK missed out was “To be further abused”

  87. Conan the Librarian says:

    337 people injured so far.

  88. heedtracker says:

    Conan the Librarian says:
    1 October, 2017 at 1:25 pm
    337 people injured so far.

    BBC r4 Sunday lunchtime news says 38.

  89. geeo says:


    Gie us aw a brek fae this chuntering nonsense.

    Catalonia = REGION of Span

    Scotland = A COUNTRY in a political union (EQUAL PARTNER, despite appearances).

    There is

  90. Lollysmum says:

    Thanks for the email address. Polite but blunt email sent (I call a spade a spade)& informing of my personal boycott of all things Spanish & will encourage family & friends to adopt similar measures.

    @ Marie Clark at 11.47am
    I sent my email long after you Marie (20 mins ago) & it hasn’t bounced back yet!

  91. geeo says:

    There is no comparison.

  92. steff says:

    I just wonder if this will lead to a new movement bigger and badder than ETA ever was. Politely asking for the right to self governance ship sailed today.

    Trust me on this, If Scotland had voted for Independence we would be seeing scenes like this here. No way would the Yoons and westminster ever give up Scotland and it’s Natural reasources without bloodshed.

  93. heedtracker says:

    SLabour at work. Get a complaint, delete, otherwise, there’s no depths in the UKOK zone today.

    Tom Harris?Verified account @MrTCHarris

    Nationalists support nationalism, wherever it occurs

    Tom Harris?Verified account @MrTCHarris 52m52 minutes ago

    On reflection, I should not have posted an insulting Tweet earlier about Scottish nationalists. Now deleted. Apologies.

  94. Andy Anderson says:

    Awful. What now? Vote will not count due to disruption. UDI would I fear cause violence.

  95. Inkall says:

    If only Spain had learned from London and not allowed things like independent catalan media it would never have got this far.

  96. slackshoe says:

    It’s all too predictable to see who is speaking up for fascism today. The same people who I’ve argued with endlessly about what the appropriate “anti-fascist” response should be, are the same people who would clearly be among the first to roll over in submission when fascists eventually take power.

  97. Brian Powell says:

    I wonder what the %s are of Spanish from rest of Spain and Catalans are? The brit expats would be voting No of course.

  98. Andy-B says:


    The democratic will of the Catalonian people pushes back the fascist Spanish Guardia Civil, remarkable footage in my opinion.

  99. Conan the Librarian says:

    @ heedtracker It was standing at that a few hours ago to be fair. I’d rather get my news from the horses mouth than its erse. Catalan News twitter feed.

  100. Ken500 says:

    Support for Independence Catalonia 40%+

    Support for Indepence Scotland 50%

    All Spanish politicians are corrupt liars.

    In the UK most of them are corrupt liars.

  101. Jack Murphy says:

    LIVE at the mo. CATALONIA. Peaceful Demo and speeches outside the Spanish Consulate,Edinburgh Scotland.

  102. Robert Roddick says:

    Just when I think that Labour can’t sink any lower. International socialists ? Mon oeil ! If my memory serves me correctly Hitler was acting within the law. Which he made !

  103. Jack Murphy says:

    I’ll try again:

  104. geeo says:

    Video show police THROWING people down a flight of stairs, mostly women.

    One cop seen JUMPING from several stairs ONTO someone he has just thrown down them.

  105. Liz g says:

    What I am wondering is where are the Catalan police in all this?
    Should they no be inbeetween the people and the Madrid police.
    The must have the stormtrooper kit as well!
    Should they no have clamped or towed all they vans day’s ago?
    And why did the Catalan government no have their police barracade the port and keep them in?
    Surely the Catalan police ARE the law enforcement?

  106. HandandShrimp says:

    The uniformed thugs drafted in to crush ordinary voters have lost the plot. The video evidence is mounting of widespread brutality. I see the Belgian Prime Minister has had enough and has spoken out. I think others will follow. Rajoy still seems to be hiding as does Corbyn (who appears to stand for everything and nothing but fair dos to Kezia for speaking out).

    Meanwhile here, I though people like Duncan and Tom Harris jumped the shark a long time ago but they must have invested in jet powered skis. No real surprise that right wing reactionaries like Brian Wilson and Iain Martin have their tutus on and are cheer leading the thugs in uniform (no doubt whilst feeling decidedly moist).

    How Rajoy thinks for one fleeting moment that he is winning hearts and minds escapes me. Pure unalloyed stupidity more like.

  107. Robert Kerr says:

    The eyes of the World are on this affront to democracy.

    This from the Largest democracy,,,,

  108. Arbroath1320 says:

    If anyone thought Fascism died when Franco died think again!

    THIS is 21st Century Spain!

    People of Catalonia going about the PEACEFUL process of trying to vote in a Catalonian referendum are attacked unecessarily and shot at by thugs dressed up as protectors of the FASCISTS who rule Spain from Madrid!

    Waht is happening in Catalonia today is evidence, if evidence were in fact needed, that when Franco died his style of Fascism didn’t die it just covered itself with an exttremely thin veil of of Pseudo Democracy!

    If the U.N. can,finally, come out and criticise the actoins of Madrid why can’t the E.U.?

    What is the E.U. so terrified of that it has kept stumpf over this whole affair?

  109. Robert Peffers says:

    @Marie Clark says: 1 October, 2017 at 11:31 am:

    “I never thought that I would see the day. It looks as though that bad bastard Franco is still alive and well. Rajoy, should be dragged before the international court for this, but by the looks of things, I won’t hold my breath.”

    There is now no doubt there is now a list of organisations that must make a stand on the issues now besetting Spain and the Catalonian situation.

    These include The United Nations, The Council of Europe, The European Parliament and any other Government in the World that classes itself as a democracy.

    I have no doubts that the Government of Spain have made a grave error in sending in the brutal state police to deal in such a manner with a democratic and peaceful independence movement. By their actions they have forever lost the argument and Catalonia will, perhaps not immediately, be an independent nation.

    No one can forever suppress a democratic wish for self determination. Many empires, including that of Britain, tried and failed to do so and Spain has just blown any hope they had of holding onto Catalonia.

    The question is now, will the Council of Europe, The UN and the European Union join Spain in the failure of democracy?

    If these organisations fail to take decisive action against the government of Spain then they are no better that the Spanish Government and collude with their actions.

    Are we about to see the end of the United Nations, The Council of Europe and the European Union? All of who will be totally irrelevant if they stand by and allow Spain to act so brutally against a democratic movement of a people who only seek a democratic choice of Self determination that is a keystone tenet of the United nations, The Council of Europe and the European Union and of which three organisations the government of Spain is signatory to those tenets.

    They must either take action to expel Spain or be classed along with them as anti-democratic. They made the rules so let us see them uphold them now.

  110. Brian Powell says:

    If a policeman gets injured it will be played ad infinitum by the MSM.

  111. Brian Powell says:

    Assuming that if people protest against privatisation of the NHS or against austerity in London, Labour will be happy with whatever the police response is.

  112. HandandShrimp says:


    One has been injured. A Catalan police officer trying to call for calm was beaten up by the Civil Guard.

    I see that Corbyn and Davidson have now condemned the violence. The Spanish Government have crossed the line by a country mile. No one can support this sort of brutality.

  113. William Wallace says:

    I am deeply saddened by what I am seeing today and extremely angry at the same time. The usual suspects making excuses for this level of state violence are utterly despicable human beings (they know who they are). Same goes for those using today’s events for their ongoing SNP bad narrative. Fkin Cnuts the lot of em.

    What are the EU doing about this? Should they not be intervening to protect citizens? About time we saw Article 7 invoked and Spain suspended (I won’t hold my breath).

    The BBC and other MSM outlets should hang their bloody heads in shame (oh wait they have no shame). As for the Tory and Labour responses (or lack of) to what is happening (don’t even get me started on them halfwits) they are clearly wondering if they might get away with something similar for indyref2 and staying relatively silent.

    Having a head in hands moment right now and feeling more than a little teary eyed. Probably best if I don’t say too much more as my anger is rapidly rising at what is currently unfolding and I don’t want to say anything that might later be used against me or the movement out of context.

    Welcome to Western Democracy. Pah!

  114. Brian McGowan says:

    Just what kind of men (dressed up in macho uniforms) would hit a young woman with batons (as two did in the video above)?

  115. Dan Huil says:

    That ugly British nationalist, Brian Wilson, once again shames Scotland. How he loves to do so!

    Another ugly British nationalist, Hothersall, deliberately misquotes the FM. The powers in Westminster and Madrid will be so happy they have such a lying British nationalist on their side.

  116. heedtracker says:

    BBC Scotland’s usual creep out reportage and “images” is their usual sleaze level. These gimps have not actually interviewed Scotland’s First Minister, why would they.

    Nicola Sturgeon ‘concern’ over images from Catalonia
    1 hour ago
    From the section Scotland politics

  117. FatCandy says:

    To the Remain voting Indy supporters on this thread now suggesting we abandon the EU as a result of the Catalonian Referendum, let me say this:
    * It is not the EU that is perpetrating the violence against the Catalonians, it is the Spanish state
    * Should we leave the UN or NATO as neither of these organisations have condemned the actions of the Spanish state or taken any action?

    Let’s keep our heads people, Article 7.1 followed promptly by 7.2 of the Lisbon Treat must be applied by the EU to Spain immediately. The EU is massive, give it time.

  118. Liz g says:

    Andy B @ 1.36
    Thanks for that Andy Wow indeed…..
    That’s it … right there, in that clip, that’s exactly what they are afraid of.
    Despite the training, the communications and the body armour.
    Those police couldn’t infact dare not use their rehearsed violence,and the people didn’t have to do anything other than walk together.
    A lesson for everyone there!
    Espically governments as they already know this but have never before been stupid enough to let it get filmed actually happening!
    Well done Catilonia X

  119. Andy-B says:

    Spanish fascist Guardia Civil beat firemen with batons, disgraceful behaviour by the fascist thugs.

  120. Brian McGowan says:

    It occured to me that the Spanish Govt would have been better off bringing over the Project Fear team from Indyref1 to advise them.
    The Referendum would likely then have been a NO to independence. End of story, for a while at least.

  121. Graemeo Rab says:

    Today and the oncoming days the people of Catalonia must endure . They have already won. However like any crisis the situation will be used as a tool of propaganda.The correct human response is to condemn Spain’s violent actions and support Catalonia in seeking a Democratic solution to it’s Constitutional question. There are many however on Scotland’s and Britain’s Unionist side who will change opinions on speaking out if the situation can be used as leverage with regards Gibralter/EU and Scotland/EU. Just as many may now see The EU inaction as tantamount to Supporting Spain. The next few days will show us clearer picture.

  122. Andy-B says:

    Catalonian civilians running for cover as the fascist Spanish Guardia Civil, fires rounds into the crowded street.

  123. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I hope the handful of men who ordered this sleep well tonight.

  124. Scottish Steve says:

    So fascism in Europe is not dead after all. I am bitterly disappointed that the EU is not taking Spain to task for this disgusting behaviour. Surely there are Spaniards that are outraged at this and condemning their government’s actions?

  125. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Stu, you may want to share some of this with the BBC. They don’t seem to have access to very much on this disgraceful carnage.

  126. Jack Murphy says:

    Labour’s Socialist Corbyn has been Tweeting all morning about Housing and Tuition Fees.
    An hour ago he sensed something was maybe happening in Catalonia:

    “Police violence against citizens in #Catalonia is shocking. The Spanish government must act to end it now.”

  127. Andy-B says:

    The Catalonian government asks the EU’s Claude Junker, to apply Article 7 of the European Union Treaty and suspend Spain as a member state.

    Article 7 of the European Union Treaty states,
    “Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

  128. Duncan Gray says:

    Good work, keep it coming, but one of those liveleak videos is actually an old one of catalan police, not today

  129. Tinto Chiel says:

    Disgraceful scenes, cheered on by Brian Wilson, a man utterly consumed with hatred for the SNP and another International Socialist who secretly despises democracy. If only the Catalans had been Cubans, eh, Brian? Surely time for your ermine.

    Waiting for George Galloway to condemn violence against people only wanting to put an X in a box.

    Good to see you back commenting, Ruby.

    Thanks, Rev, for all the information I can’t access otherwise.

  130. Clapper57 says:

    The Messiah has spoken….at last Jezza tweets on Catalonia.

    Anyone who remained silent on this atrocity and had to be shamed into commenting is, in my opinion, not a true socialist but a mere political opportunist.

    Ladies and Gentleman I give you Jeremy Corbyn.

    This is local socialism for local people…..Jezza Brexit style.

  131. brian scott says:

    If this had been Ireland pushing for its independence, what stance would Celtic director, Brian Wilson, have adopted?

  132. asklair says:

    Just saw this, apologies if mentioned before.

  133. Andy-B says:

    Finally for now.

    Not one word from Britain’s foreign secretary Boris Johnson, on the violent fascist repression going on in Catalonia.

    Instead our FS, chooses to focus on how good Saudi Arabia is now, that women have been allowed to drive.

  134. uno mas says:

    Meanwhile the Basques watch, and wait.

  135. blackhack says:

    Under European Treaty Article 7 Spain can be sanctioned for using force against its people. There were members of armed forces and special forces involved in the suppression of the Catalan people and there is video evidence of brutality as some of you may have seen today.
    “Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”
    Please email your MEP if you feel strongly that this should be invoked.

    Scottish MEP’s to email

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    I don’t think so, that could lead to pitched battles and make the situation appear to be 50-50 in the eyes of the rest of the world.

    Tha Catalans absolutely have to remain peaceful, and allow themselves to be hit.

  137. Shinty says:

    Fat Candy – The EU is massive, give it time.

    Totally agree.

  138. heedtracker says:

    “We are not afraid!” The chant of the Catalans in Edinburgh.

    If history shows us anything about secession, Spain broke up today.

    British violence in southern Ireland turned the tide for the Irish republic, as soon as the Irish public saw the level of violence used by the British.

  139. Robert Peffers says:

    @katsoft says: 1 October, 2017 at 11:33 am:

    “… EU and UN must intervene before this gets totally out of control”

    Two things, katsoft, It is well out of control already and the first, and main organisation, to get involved is the Council of Europe, it is much bigger than the EU. In fact the EU is one of the Council of Europe’s members.

    The reasons these organisations must all take immediate action is quite simple. The first reason being that the Government of Spain is a signatory to them all and is thus bound by those organisations rules they signed up uphold.

    A main tenet of all three organisations is the right of any identifiable people to, Self Determination.

    As far as Human rights are concerned the freedom of self determination of identifiable peoples is a fundamental rule.

    The EU is one of the members of the Council Of Europe and thus the EU member states, including Spain, (Catalonia), UK, (Scotland), and Belgium, (Flanders), all have signed up to the rights of identifiable peoples to self determination.

    Today’s events in Catalonia show that the government of Spain are forcibly suppressing the democratic will of the Catalans to hold a referendum on their freedom of Self determination and are thus in direct contravention of the treaties they signed up with via the Council of Europe and the EU.

    These organisations are legally bound, by their own laws, to intervene and prevent the actual bloodshed we are witnessing right here on Wings today.

    Those of you attempting to communicate with the Spanish Consulate in Edinburgh may wish to make that point to the Spanish Consulate.

    Here is a link to the Council of Europe – Click the link at the top of the webpage on Human rights:-

  140. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 2.53
    I suppose you are right ….. it’s just so horrible to watch and they should be able to get the protection of their own police,but I can see why not.
    Although it would be interesting to get a statement from the Catalan police or Government about this.

    But I still wonder why the Madrid police were allowed into or out out of that dock.
    Surely that’s where the threat to the peace of the people could have been contained.

  141. Welsh Sion says:

    Copy of a letter I sent today to the Observer.


    To the Editor of the Observer
    Dear Sir,

    If a week is a long time in politics, it is also true that 7 days is an equally lengthy period for the Observer. 

    Last week your editorial commented on the seeming disadvantages of not only the independence referendum to be held the following Sunday in Catalonia, but also the very notion of independence for the region (“This referendum will bring no benefit to Catalonia, Spain or the EU”, the Observer 24.09.17.).

    You refer to the Scottish analogy whereby you aver that if there was “a single political force with the parliamentary domination, of, say, the Scottish National party, there would be a persuasive case for holding an independence ballot …”, but as those seeing independence come from an “agglomeration of parties”, then “they have little in common but their espousal of this referendum.” 

    Your reasoning defies logic on many grounds. Firstly, the Scottish National Party is not alone in advocating independence for Scotland. If we have learnt anything from the 2014 YES Campaign there, it is precisely that fact: YES embraced Scots from all political parties and none in promoting the independence cause, from all quarters of Scottish society. The latest mandate Nicola Sturgeon has for calling a second independence referendum in Scotland was buttressed by the Scottish Green MSPs. Secondly, notwithstanding these facts, Londoncentric journalists have repeatedly issued the cry that “YES equals the SNP alone” as a way of criticising the movement as being solely a Nationalist vehicle. You too seem to want your cake and eat it. Ultimately, the tone of your piece is one of profound negativity – and a plea for Catalonia not to secede from Spain. (Shades of Better Together, anyone?)

    Now, try to square the Observer’s reasoning with a subsequent editorial, a week hence (“The Kurds have fought hard for their values. They deserve our support now”, the Observer, 01.10.17.). There is a deep-seated “yearning” for a Kurdistan we are told, They have the “right” to be self-governing and be “free from interference by foreign powers,” a freedom indeed which is, “unceasing and not to be denied.”

    One wonders how the Kurds, “like any people conjoined by ethnic identity, land, language and culture, have an inalienable right to determine their future path, in one direction or another”, whereas Catalans (and doubtless the Scots and the Welsh do not.) I’m sure no ambiguity arises from the definition of the word “any” – it can surely only mean that, no matter what human community sharing the attributes listed, has “an inalienable right” to decide its own affairs and pursue the course of independence and freedom. Or is that “right” only accorded to those who have fought physical, bloody battles for it (such as the Kurds) but not those who pursue freedom through non-violent means (such as the Scots and Catalans)? A highly dangerous premise, I fear. 

    Comparing both editorials therefore, one is drawn to the conclusion that independence for the Kurds is “a good thing”, whereas freedom for Catalans can only be “a bad thing”. The fact that the former looks like being achieved through the barrel of a gun, and the latter thwarted by similar weapons, and a seemingly liberal, internationalist British newspaper can encourage the Kurds in their stance whilst denigrating the Catalans, is a worrying indictment of Fleet Street thinking. 

    One would be tempted to think that there is a hidden message here to uppity, independence-seeking Celts here, too: the United Kingdom Establishment and its Western European counterpart, doesn’t “do” popular, civilian-based, grassroots democracy.

    Yours faithfully,       

  142. Colin Alexander says:

    Copy of my letter to the Spanish Ambassador to the UK:

    Dear Mr Carlos Bastarreche

    I wish to express my concern at the actions of the Spanish Police in Catalonia.

    In particular, I wish to protest against what appears to be an excessive use of force and violent conduct being used by the police against citizens in Catalonia.

    Whatever view we may hold on the legality of the independence referendum, I see no need for the use of violence by police against people who are not using violence.

  143. Breeks says:

    Ruth Davidson I seem to remember visiting Spain, and trying to cobble together some anti-independence camaraderie with some Spanish organisation… Can anybody else remember the details? Back in 2013 or 2014 or thereabouts… A little bell ringing says there was political money involved too, but I can’t quite remember…

    Anybody recall it?

  144. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    I know, hard to look at these pictures. But the likes of Davidson and Corbyn have to be very careful, because it could have been “propoganda”, and one-sided.

    There’s nothing one-sided though about the Guardia Civil beating up defenceless people, and sadly that’s the way it has to carry on. No counter-violence, no counter-violence and once more – no counter-violence.

    The Catalans are obviously brave enough for that, and it does take real absolute courage to do what they’re doing.

  145. uno mas says:

    Barcelona F.C. have just annouced that the match in the game due to start in 10 minutes time will be played behind closed doors and have turned away all those outside waiting to get in.

    They have reached this decision after being informed by the more radical sector of supporters that it was their intention to invade the pitch.

    However despite the original plan to play in their normal blue and claret strip Barcelona will tonight play in the second strip which of course is the flag of Catalunia.

    The visiting team Las Palmas have been ordered by La Liga (the establishment) to wear a jersey which has the Spanish flag on it.

    Good grief it´s getting worse!

  146. Dan Huil says:

    @Welsh Sion 3:06pm

    Excellent letter. Hope it gets published – in full.

  147. geeo says:

    337 injured by police violence now, and Barca match cancelled.

    Al Jazeera has running updates.

  148. Street Andrew says:

    Reports of the death of Franco seem to have been exaggerated.

    I feel ….sick actually.

  149. thomas says:

    Good letter @ Welsh Sion.

    Not only am i in shock at the violence today in catalonia , but more importantly i am in shock at the silence of the western world , whose chattering classes and political leaders are not normally slow in condemning human rights and democratic abuse in other countries such as north korea.

  150. HandandShrimp says:

    Hope Barcelona stick 10 in the back of the net

    According to a report on the Groaniard from someone on the ground, lots of the small villages and towns are happily voting away because there aren’t enough police to go around with all the major concentrations in Barcelona and other large cities.

  151. Graeme says:


  152. Colin Alexander says:

    Copy of letter to Mr Juncker:

    Dear Jean-Claude Juncker

    I wish to express my deep dismay at the deafening silence of the EU regarding the actions of the Spanish state in Catalonia.

    The EU has long expressed it’s view that it promotes and upholds democracy and human rights.

    However, it appears that when the Kingdom of Spain’s actions in Catalonia appear to be breaching these values, the EU has nothing to say on the matter, because Spain is a member of the EU.

    Furthermore, the EU has long spoken of the rights of EU citizens. Sir, may I take this opportunity to remind you that the citizens of Scotland are EU citizens and they voted by a large majority to remain part of the EU, but this democratic decision by the people of Scotland is being disregarded by the UK and the EU.

    The UK is a Union between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England with the principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland. Thus, Scotland is not just a region of the UK but a distinct and sovereign Kingdom.

    Many people in Scotland, myself included, feel this decision for Scotland to remain part of the EU should be upheld and defended by the EU in negotiations with the UK Government.

  153. yesindyref2 says:

    BBC and Guardian covering it on the websites.

  154. Graeme says:

    Lets face it the Spanish police have done enough the vote is compromised it will never hold water

    But i believe the Catalonians have won their independence today

  155. HandandShrimp says:

    Will give the Guardian its due, their coverage on this has been very good and is constantly being updated. The BBC coverage is rubbish. Do they have any foreign correspondents any more…or even a broadband connection?

  156. Bob p says:

    Good letter CA

  157. yesindyref2 says:

    And Independent and CNN, euronews with an anti-secession bias very evident.

  158. David Mills says:

    So will the EU & UN take these actions as resignation by Spain from their organisations and Civilised society!

  159. The undemocratic Spanish authorities should be ashamed of themselves

  160. Ottomanboi says:

    Note well! This is what happens to independence movements when the system really gets serious.
    Can imagine Generalissimo Davidson and the unionist legionnaires defending Scots from such ideas above their alloted station.

  161. Robert Peffers says:

    @Calum McKay says: 1 October, 2017 at 11:37 am:

    “Spain’s reaction has guaranteed Catalonia’s freedom!”

    Yes, Calum. indeed it has.

    “the british can no longer use Spain as any form of blocker or warning to Scottish independence, otherwise they are using a fascist regime to make their point.”

    That bit, though, is utter rubbish.

    First of all, “Those you speak of are not, “The British”, they are the Westminster Establishment Unionists but do not rule all of Britain.

    “The British”, legislations also includes all the peoples of the eight, (yes that’s eight), British legislations.

    It includes, The Republic of Ireland, The Westminster de facto parliament of the country of England, The Holyrood Parliament of the country of Scotland, the Parliament of Wales, The Parliament of Northern Ireland and the two Channel Island Bailiwicks and the Isle of Man legislatures. All of them are British.

    Furthermore, the Government of Spain HAS NEVER EVER said they will veto Scotland’s claims for independence.

    The Westminster propaganda machine has been the only organ to make such stupid claims. First of all their oft quoted source was NOT speaking on behalf of the EU as he was NOT elected as an EU MEP- He was Barroso and was the EC. (European Commissioner), and commissioners are the Civil Servants of the EU and Barroso always made quite clear he was giving a personal opinion.

    Moreover Barroso was not even Spanish. He is a former Portuguese Prime Minister and, last time I looked, Portugal was not part of Spain.

    He was also the EC, (European Commissionaire for Portugal), who subsequently was chosen as President of the European Commission.

    Don’t listen to Westminster Propaganda, Calum, it is usually all lies.

  162. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Welsh Sion, re: the strange double standard of the Observer in supporting the Kurds.

    Yeah, funny that, isn’t it? I wonder why such cognitive dishrinse. Is real funny.


    Catalonia, you are beautiful.

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    Can imagine Generalissimo Davidson and the unionist legionnaires defending Scots from such ideas above their alloted station.

    The AP stirrer should know that Davidson has already condemned the police action, and as one of the “unionist legionnaires”, so has Corbyn.

  164. msean says:

    Euronews used the term separatist during the indyref,as did others like cnn,but being pan european/world broadcasters,I thought they would have taken a neutral stance.

  165. Cadogan Enright says:

    Catalonia has it’s own media – so the Spanish have to use force


    My donation today brings the anti-BBC funder to less than £200 of the half way mark

    Have you seen the BBC coverage of this entirely peaceful attempt at Independence ???? Help us deal with the BBC

  166. Andy-B says:

    This is what happens when you try to vote, in Catalonia, they break your fingers.

  167. msean says:

    The EU is slow to act,but I think this will be addressed.

  168. maureen says:

    Marie Clark says:
    1 October, 2017 at 11:47 am

    Muscleguy, thanks for the email address for the Spanish consulate. I duly sent a polite email expressing my disgust at Spain’s handling of the situation, only to have it rejected.

    Anyone else having this problem. Have they shut all of their systems down to avoid condemnation, or was I just unlucky. I really was polite and reasonable so it must be my objection that they don’t care for.

    I used this link and it hasn’t been rejected yet!
    Just click on the email address on the page, write and send.

  169. Vestas says:

    @ msean 3:47 pm :

    “The EU is slow to act,but I think this will be addressed.”

    I don’t.

    It still hasn’t dealt with Poland “Truth & Justice Party” completely destroying the rule of law after nearly 2 years – not even a slap on the wrist.

    The EU will look the other way – as always.

  170. Robert Peffers says:

    @all those getting at the EU for not yet acting.

    Just pause a moment before shooting from the lip.

    In the first place the EU is a rather large Parliament and like all parliaments it can really only act legally in a democratic manner. i.e. By calling a debate, proposing a motion, perhaps having the proposal amended or even opposed and then debating and voting upon the motion.

    Only then does it get acted upon by the parliament’s civil servants a.k.a, The European Commissioners. I expect, like me, you all regard Tony Blair’s taking the UK to war on only his say so as a war crime. Would not the EU forcibly prevention of the Spanish suppression of democracy in Catalonia not also be a war crime?

    As I posted well over a week ago – Spain will lose Catalonia by NOT recognising the Catalan right to self determination. In actual fact the non-violent Catalan response to the Spanish violence is winning them independence.

    What a brave nation, I believe I may now call them a nation, those Catalans are. Would that more of my Scots brothers & sisters were so brave – and just brave enough to have put a wee mark on a ballot paper was all that was asked of them.

  171. Andy-B says:

    Julian Assange says:

    “Catalan police say 221 of 2,315 polling stations, just under 10% (i.e > 90% not closed), have been closed as of 15:10 today. Unclear how many have been re-opened after closing. Government says 96% open.”

    The yes voters of Catalonia, might yet have the last laugh.

  172. Almannysbunnet says:

    The silence from labour is deafening. Ironically Duncan Hothersall and Willie Young would have been better staying silent! The Kingdom of Spain taints all of Europe and if the EU sit on their hands over this the EU truly is in danger. Cannot believe some of the scenes coming out of Catalonia, cowards in body armour attacking old women and children! Switch on the TV and what do I get, Ruth Davidson at the Tory party conference telling us about the strength of her precsious union. I believe I may throw up.

  173. Bruce says:

    Meanwhile Westminster looks on with envy wishing they had the nerve to do the same in Scotland.

  174. yesindyref2 says:

    If there’s one thing I hate it’s being accused on the wrong, and I also believe in fairness and honesty when it comes to accusing others on the wrong.

    Ruth Davidson has condemened the violence:

    and so has Corbyn:

  175. Robert Graham says:

    Not sure what’s more troubling, these images of a state out of control, or these people on the various tweets defending the actions of what looks like a Facist State out of any type of control.

    And the response of the EU is ? The EU we want to continue to be a part of , is this the reaction we are going to get when our referendum is interfeared with , it doesn’t look encouraging does it .

  176. Alex Clark says:


    Yes I agree that the Guardian has been doing a decent job of covering live the events in Catalonia. What of the BBC though? So obvious their omission of reporting events as they actually are.

    “Fake News” they don’t trust us shouts Nick Robinson, maybe he should have kept his mouth shut as he has put his foot in it again after today it’s so obvious that the real news is all coming via social media.

    Guardian reports over 460 injured so far and also that Spains Interior Ministry have stated:

    “Three people, including one girl, have been arrested for civil disobedience and attacking an officer.”

    “Nine police officers and three members of the Guardia Civil have been injured so far.”

    So over 460 civilians standing up for democracy have been injured, yet only a handful of police. The violence is all one way. Where are the BBC?

  177. Andy-B says:

    The fascist Spanish Guardia Civil, take it upon themselves to club a man aiding a injured man, who had already been beaten by them.

    Even when the man falls to the ground, they continue to beat him.

  178. bob says:

    In comparison with Spain, the UK has given Scotland a fair crack of the whip.

    If Catalonia benefits from todays madness, does Scotland follow the same route?

  179. cearc says:

    The Spanish have arrived at the polling place where Joanna Cherry is observing.

  180. steff says:

    Anyone alse thinking of heading the Catalonia. These people need our help.

  181. Sinky says:

    Indyref2. A bit late and only after Nicola Sturgeon got wide coverage.

    Remember how Cameron and Rajoy “consulted” on Scotland and Catalonia

    From The Herald Saturday 30 November 2013
    DAVID Cameron and the Spanish Prime Minister have held secret talks on independence movements in Scotland and Catalonia,
    Spanish media said the two leaders had “decided to co-ordinate” their response to next year’s referendum in Scotland and continuing calls for secession in Catalonia.
    The development came to light after Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy asserted an independent Scotland would be “left outside the EU” and required to negotiate membership from scratch with all 28 member states.

    Barcelona fc game this afternoon played behind closed doors after police said thay couldn’t provide security. Spanish (Madrid) FA told club they would forfeit three points if game was cancelled.

    Should have been obvious that once Civil Guard got involved there would be problems with the game. Latest score 0-0

  182. yesindyref2 says:

    Willie Rennie too:

    and Dugdale:

    Sarwar commented, as did Leonard, and of course Harvie.

    It’s a full house, what would people prefer, Scotland to be divided or together in condemning the violence in Catalonia?

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 1 October, 2017 at 3:22 pm:

    “Copy of letter to Mr Juncker:
    Dear Jean-Claude Juncker”

    Oh! Grow up you bloody unionist chancer.

    The EU is, in case you had not noticed, a democratic and furthermore a consensus run parliament, I’ll emphasis that bit for you PARLIAMENT.

    It thus requires that it has a motion raised for any decisions it takes and that also requires the motion be seconded. It also requires that provision must be made for amendments, (also requiring seconding), to be raised and also for opposing motions to be raised that also require seconding.

    Then the house must meet, debate and vote upon the matter. Furthermore, the parliamentarians do NOT take any actions for that is the task of the European Commission, (EU Civil Servants), to organise whatever decision the parliamentarians have decided.

    It may not be instant action but at least prevents such war crimes as the Tony Blair decision to take the UK to war on only his say so and based upon what any reasonably well informed person knew was wrong information.

    I not only knew that what Blair was claiming as massed armour ready for war was factually old rusting USA/UK provided war machines previously given to Saddam when Saddam had been trained in warfare by the USA who then supported him.

    A war based on misinformation and deliberate lies. Yet here you are expecting the EU top officials to wade in on only their say so. In the real World, Colin, such actions can only lead to trouble.

    What is required is for cool and well informed heads. Not hotheads acting in haste like those sending in armed police against peaceful citizens in Catalonia.

    In any case the prime mover in any actions taken against the Spanish Government should be the Council of Europe of which the EU and their entire member nations are also members.

    There are far more members of the Council of Europe than of the EU and all EU member states are members of the Council of Europe :-

    Go see for yourself:-,44987,en.html

  184. Graeme says:

    bob says:
    1 October, 2017 at 4:22 pm

    “In comparison with Spain, the UK has given Scotland a fair crack of the whip.”

    Are you serious Bob?

    We never got a fair crack of the whip the British are no better than the Spanish They’re just a bit better at this shit than they are, I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options

  185. yesindyref2 says:

    I doubt very much if the people of Catalonia care who was first, and how long, or whether they spent time with the kids first, it’s that they’ve all done it.

    As for Rajoy he never said that, it’s how the Herald reported it. I know, I commented on that (those) threads, having looked up what exactly was said. Same as Barroso and Van Rompuy, the MSM did it’s usual stuff, someone on Wings (Petra?) actually transcripted the interview with Barroso on the BBC and psoted it on Wings at the time.

    Never believe the MSM.

  186. Alex Clark says:

    I’m will not be surprised that reports of only 3 people being arrested are true. After all what are they going to charge those beaten up with.

    Guilty of holding your hands up, a breech of the peace. The intent of the Guardia Civil is purely to intimidate those defending democracy and so far it appears to be failing.

    Rajoy will be out on his arse though there will likely be worse to come before that happens. The biggest demonstration in support of democracy ever doesn’t look far away. The Spanish government cannot quell this with batons and rubber bullets against such determined support.

    They have already lost, the EU must act and condemn this violence.

  187. Ottomanboi says:

    @Robert Peffers
    The Scots can truly claim to be a creditable nation and a real people when they stop believing sticking x’s on bits of paper constitutes a act of liberation and that is all it takes. The British state is a tougher entity than the Spanish version, with more powerful psychological as well as physical forces at its disposition. The repressive and anglicizing mission of the British imperium lives on, in our own backyard. Go for it Ruthie! Crush those rebellious Scots! You gorgeous ("Quizmaster" - Ed), you!

  188. Petra says:

    Once again if you want to know exactly what’s going on in this country, and further afield, visit Wings over Scotland.

    I thank you for this article Stu: On the other hand it has just made me weep. Young girls, elderly men and women being thrown around like rag dolls. Big burly firemen being pushed around by Franco thugs carrying batons and guns. If support for Independence stood at around 50% previously it’s probably just shot right through the roof now. Does Rajoy really think that any half decent person would want to remain part of this regime? He and his henchmen have just proven to the world that the Catalonians were right in wanting their Independence. What next I wonder? I hear that hordes of anti-Independence supporters are now on the streets. Will they get their Independence or be subjected to even more subjugation and strife? Remain peaceful folks. Don’t fall into their trap.

    Els millors desitjos a Catalunya d’Escòcia. Et estem recolzant.

    Meanwhile the Tories with their plummeting membership are attempting to attract young people into their hard right-wing old fogie party by stating that they’ll review tuition fees. Gordon Brewer affords Ruth Davidson a platform to spout even more lies, circumlocute answering questions and run the SNP / Nicola Sturgeon down to the ground. Good old Gordie another totally inept, biased presenter. Davidson was asked how she felt about the SNP being set to announce a total fracking ban and responded by saying that they are hypocrites due to accepting fracked shale gas from the US. She supports fracking of course. Backs her English Tory bosses plans to rob us of even more revenue whilst totally destroying our country, our health and our industries; and if the Tories get their way in relation to their power grab they could override the SNP decision at a later date.

    Over and above power grabs, Snooper’s Charter, plans to regulate the Internet, gagging bill, and so on, they’ve now decided that they’ll give G4S the power to arrest people.

    Check out G4S.

    ‘G4S: a history of discrimination, human rights violations, malpractice and mismanagement in the UK.’’

    And on a personal note I’ve just returned from Arran where 4 out of 5 people (rate fairly risen since the last time I was there) that I met have moved to Scotland from England. Not ONE of them, from what they said / I could see, supports Independence. One guy even said that we don’t have enough people living in Scotland / paying taxes to support an Independent Scotland. Grr!

    Between one thing and another it’s time to get out folks. Not after the next election, whenever that may be, or at the end of some single market transitional period. Get out BEFORE March 2019. It’s now or never time.

  189. yesindyref2 says:

    @Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options

    With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?

    There is no national police force in the UK, only “regional” ones.

  190. Brian Powell says:


    If the Brit State had an inkling the vote would get to 45% and closer they would never have agreed to the Referendum. Cameron and the Westminster politicians were assure by Lab in Scotland that the vote would be a massive No.

  191. Dan Huil says:

    @Petra 4:47pm

    I agree with your view re. people moving to Scotland from England. Indyref2 must take place soon.

  192. Liz g says:

    And no broadcast news is staying on these developments live.
    Just packages being broadcast in the bulletins.
    This is disgraceful.
    Referendums are a topic in these islands, regardless to how anyone actually votes in them.
    We have just had two and because those two votes can’t both be implemented,we will be having a third.
    And that vote will be the biggest one,even for England because it will finally also be truly Sovereign also….yay England…yer welcome..
    So any referendum of any discription is relevant and this is an on going story!
    Then they have the cheek tae wonder why we don’t believe that they will deliver THE news.
    It’s like they want us to forget about referendums!

  193. Alex Clark says:

    Well at least the EU are making some noises, from the Revs twitter: Guy Verhofstadt has this to say in a statement.

    “I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.”

  194. Ottomanboi says:

    What it is to be so pure of heart….

  195. Graeme says:

    bob says:
    1 October, 2017 at 4:22 pm

    “In comparison with Spain, the UK has given Scotland a fair crack of the whip.”

    Are you serious Bob ?

    We never got a fair crack of the whip, the British are no better than the Spanish they’re just better at this shit than they are, don’t think for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they feel they have to they’ve done it before and they’d do again

  196. Eilidh says:

    Horrified by events in Catalonia today. So this the EU in the 21st century. Spain now becomes 3rd country on my banned places list for holidays joining Turkey and USA won’t set foot in them while fascists r

  197. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 4.48
    G4S….. LOL

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    The mind boggles!

  199. Legerwood says:

    Vestas @ 3.53

    I think you will find that the EU has and is taking steps against the Polish Law and Justice party but in such cases there is a fine line between intervening to uphold EU policies and intervening when a party is implementing policies it was specifically elected to implement. The latter would certainly be viewed askance.

    This article from the Independent sets out the situation in Poland and the EU choices. It also gives some useful info on Article 7 that is relevant to the situation in Spain and should be noted by all those who have mentioned it on here.

    As usual links to the Independent won’t archive.

    Invoking Article 7 is

  200. mike d says:

    Wonder if black ops forces in madrid will orchestrate some kind of “attack/incident ” tonight on their police. To legitimise an even more hard handed approach on the catalan independence movement?

  201. Brian Powell says:

    Expect a Turkey style cull of officials in Catalonia by the Spanish Government.

  202. galamcennalath says:

    Remember, the Tories put soldiers in police uniform to deal with miners.

  203. Graeme says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    1 October, 2017 at 4:48 pm

    @Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options”

    With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?

    There is no national police force in the UK, only “regional” ones.

    Yeah you’re right and it comes as a great comfort to know the Westminster mob have no way to forcibly suppress anything they consider sedition, i appologise

  204. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Petra at 4.47

    It is indeed now or never time. If the SNP delays an announcement for a referendum much longer it is goodbye to the SNP and to the Independence cause.

    Many parts of rural Scotland are becoming mini Englands already and it is an accelerating trend as the Scots in these areas cannot match the buying powers of the southerners.

  205. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Graham says: 1 October, 2017 at 4:20 pm:

    “And the response of the EU is ?

    So, tell us, Robert, exactly who it is in the European Parliament what should make the decision – all by themselves without the parliament’s say so, to take action?

    Furthermore, what action is it you want that person to instigate?

    Now bear in mind that the members of the EU parliament are members of parliament and have absolutely no individual powers to order any actions.

    Not only that but the EU’s Civil Servants are European Commissioners – the clue is in the name, (Commissioners are paid for servants), who cannot act until ordered to do so by the parliament after a democratic debate and vote.

    The EU isn’t a UK or Spanish like set-up where the leader of the parliament is a virtual dictator. It works by consensus and democratic vote. Even to the extent that every member state, no matter how small, get their turn of holding the EU presidency.

  206. Undeadshaun says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill

    “Many parts of rural Scotland are becoming mini Englands already and it is an accelerating trend as the Scots in these areas cannot match the buying powers of the southerners”

    That statement is bullshit, just trying to stir up racism.

    Have you pulled weekend shift and stuck in 77th baracks this weekend?

  207. Alex Clark says:

    Ottomanboi says:
    1 October, 2017 at 4:47 pm
    @Robert Peffers
    The Scots can truly claim to be a creditable nation and a real people when they stop believing sticking x’s on bits of paper constitutes a act of liberation and that is all it takes.

    Ottomanboi says:
    1 October, 2017 at 5:01 pm
    What it is to be so pure of heart….

    The correct word is credible not creditable. Isn’t sticking X’s on bits of paper what the Catalonians are defending right now? I take it you disagree?

    Your not a Scot that much is obvious, any Scot would never begin a sentence with “The Scots can truly claim”. Surely they would start with “We Scots” or even just “We”.

    Your comments are not worth the overtime your being paid.

  208. David says:

    I assume the Labour party now support the treatment of those on picket lines deemed illegal by Thatcher.

    Hope they’ll explain why we had an EU ref when the UK had already voted to join EU and why we have a Scottish parliament when Scotland voted against it in the 70s

  209. Gary45% says:

    Anyone know the Catalan for “I am Catalonia”

  210. Hamish100 says:

    Indy ref2

    The politicisation of the police such as the miners strike should not make us complacent. I think with the Scottish FM oversight rather than the impotent SOSS then we might be better off.

  211. Ottomanboi says:

    In the present political context and with the likes of Davidson dishing strategic ‘advice’ a second independence referendum is unlikely to be approved by Westminster, as for BritState 2014 settled imatters once and for all. Should we see ourselves in a similar situation to the Catalans I trust we should not be found wanting.

  212. Undeadshaun says:

    From thr gaurdian.

    “The Foreign Office spokesperson has commented on today’s events in Catalonia.

    The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us.”

    Note wording strength and unity, says it all.

  213. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    1 October, 2017 at 4:48 pm
    @Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options”

    With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?”…

    Cough! Cough! Miners strike. Trumped up “illegality” contrived with the courts then heavy handed politicised police implementation at the sharp end.

    Cough! Cough! Battle of George Square 1919 Glasgow – tanks on the street of Glasgow.

    And don’t forget Boris Johnston’s water cannon enterprise for London. An embarrassing and shameful waste of public money, but so was the water cannon. But the intent was clear, and from a currently serving government minister.

    Cough! Cough! Don’t forget Northern Ireland either, complete with army snatch squads… and incidentally, here’s a wee picture from 2013…. to my eye that police get-up looks uncannily similar to the Guardia Civil. –

    Can’t happen here eh? I hope you’re right.

    Did you happen to see the Spanish police being dispatched from all over Spain to control the referendum in Catalonia being cheered by the Spanish crowds, chanting “Go and get the *#!?!”. Is it such a stretch for the imagination to think some day these might conceivably be police and soldiers from the Met and Greater Manchester being cheered on their way by the likes of UKIP and the EDL, heading North to prevent a Scottish referendum which Westminster has declared illegal? Just imagine that it’s Scottish Fireman getting a skelp with a baton for coming between the riot police and Scottish voters. Is it such a stretch?

    You are also forgetting the Unionists self appointed militia in waiting. “Arrows cost money. Send in the walking lobotomies of the OO”.

  214. Abulhaq says:

    Jo soc Catalunya!

  215. Robert Louis says:

    Watching as heavily armed Guardia Civil fascist officers literally throw unarmed young women down flights of stairs, and then kick them, Punch young women in the face, then hit them full force in the face with their batons, should make any sane person angry at Mariano Rajoy. Blood is on his hands. He will be remembered as the man who through stupidity absolutely guaranteed the break up of Spain.

    Spain is the shame of Europe. Mariano Rajoy should be arrested, and taken to the hague.

  216. yesindyref2 says:

    Indeed, we should not be complacent. But the rule of Law still exists in both the UK and Scotland, and no other police force has jurisdiction in Scotland, unless invited by Police Scotland. That would be the equivalent of the Catalonian Police inviting Madrid police!

  217. Commentater says:

    The despicable and disgusting show of fascism in Catalonia prompts me to urge everyone around this world to think a few seconds about the sickening Unprovoked violence against peaceful voters in Catalonia which is reminiscent of the fascist miscreants of the recent past, like stalin, hitler and more relevant to the region franco, now make a concious decision to Boycot Anything from Spain, be it cars, produce anything in fact, Voice your protest and help bring change to the belegured good folks of Catalona also if you are thinking of a holiday stay in Spain, if youve booked for Spain to visit., just try to think how you/ your family or children would have been affected if you were innocently caught up in unprovoked-violence æike weve witnessed here today, right in europe!

    Cancel any and all trips to Spain, boycot spanish products/produce, please USE your voice to help put a stop to such Unwarrented violence against folk JUST like you or I, this time action WILL speak a Lot louder than words. Be safe folks

  218. Ottomanboi says:

    @Alex Clark
    This site is unique in allowing the free expression of opinion, varied opinion. Because my propositions do not accord with yours I am consequently not a Scot…..thanks for that. Suggest you look up the meaning of ‘creditable’.

  219. Gary45% says:

    I think the Catalan situation is a wake up call to the rest of the world.
    Democracy which ever way it is tarted up, DOES NOT EXIST.
    Genuinely thought if our next Indy was no again we were off to Spain, even with the Brexit shambles we thought it was still worth while, after todays display from the Spanish authorities, (they are as corrupt as Westminster,) the grass definitely doesn’t look greener, then again the Catalan region has shown the guts and spirit against a barbaric ruling government.
    So if No, Catalonia here we come.(mibees)

  220. geeo says:

    @ottomanboi @5.44.

    You forget a crucial factor…WM do NOT “approve” a referendum.

    It’s a common error amongst anti indy supporters.

    The SG can hold a referendum ANY TIME THEY LIKE.

  221. Andy-B says:


    You are correct in your translation well done.

  222. geeo says:

    Oops…premature posting…

    WM do not approve a referendum, they issue a Section 30 order, which is NOT approval. A section 30 is merely a temporary devolution of the powers required for the SG to organise a referendum, which both sides respect the result. In other words, it (S30) makes the indyref legally binding.

    In the unlikely event of WM with-holding a Section 30, the WM gov are basically breaching the Act of Union and the treaties within it.

    The referendum mandate is the EXPRESS WILL of the Scottish People through a democratic election process. If WM try to deny that sovereign will in any way, they have ended the Union.

    That is why a referendum WILL be held, and a S30 WILL be given. Sure, they will try to fudge it until after brexit, but U.N. Charter 1514 is very clear on that very subject.

    3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

    In other words, Now IS the fecking time.

  223. Robert Peffers says:

    What really got to me was an English woman, supporting Spain, claiming that, “Nationalism only causes violence”.

    Did the moronic bitch not realise it is the nationalism of the Spanish people that is propagating the violence and the Catalans are not responding to it with violence?

    This woman is an Englander who quite obviously doesn’t recognise that the evil form of nationalism in the UK is that of English/British nationalism and she is part of that and blind to its very existence? English/British nationalism is without doubt xenophobic and there is a general fear and hatred of, “Johnny Foreigner”, flowing through many English veins.

    The cause of Scottish nationalism is inclusive and we believe that it doesn’t matter where you are originally from, what religious beliefs you hold or what colour you are that makes you a Scottish person it is because you have chosen to be a Scottish person is all that matters.

    My late wife and I, many years ago, were walking up the Edinburgh Royal Mile during the Festival. I knew the Capital well having lived there for many years but my wife had been only an occasional visitor to the city.

    We came upon a very large person with lots of facial hair and wearing the full national regalia of the Sikhs. Except his turban and his sash were in the Sikh Tartan. He was standing outside his own shop and speaking to passers by to come in an brows his shop’s wares.

    I passed the time of day with him and said We’d come in but had to meet my son first. I got the surprise of my life when the Sikh answered me with my own name.

    Turned out he had been a classmate when we were at school together but I had not recognised him behind the facial hair. Like myself he had been an SNP supporter all his life. In fact he was a Leither born and bred and a child of several generations of Leithers going back hundreds of years.

  224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Isn’t it all too sadly typical of the usual Labourite suspects that they can see an absolutely egregious affront to democracy and human rights without immediately siding with the neo-Franco “legalists” instead!

    What completely exposed hypocrites and fakers!

    It even takes the Saviour ages to realise there might just be a wee problem here, even though it doesn’t involve the downtrodden basket-weavers of Venezuela or somesuch.

    What we see here though, despite the unfortunate bloodletting and anguish, is hugely impressive. Ordinary people not willing to be deterred by any threat or actual violence from organised paramilitary militia, and exercise their right to be heard by simply casting their vote. They are to be applauded. Their resolute defence of democracy is a positive lesson to us all.

    And in fact by doing so, as I believe we shall see in due course, they have won.

  225. Davie Oga says:

    Brian Powell says:
    1 October, 2017 at 1:34 pm

    I wonder what the %s are of Spanish from rest of Spain and Catalans are? The brit expats would be voting No of course.

    Foreign nationals and Spanish citizens not permanently and solely resident through Padron (political condition Catalan)are not permitted to vote as is the norm in the overwhelming majority of countries around the world.

    The Scottish referendum franchise was unique in comparison to Eu and global norms in that it allowed non resident students, workers, and foreign nationals the ability to deny the permanent residents of Scotland their independence.

    No doubt the people who don’t wish to live in the kind of country that is actually a country will be satisfied with their virtuous inclusiveness.

  226. Jim Lees says:

    It beggars believe. Paramilitary thugs entering a polling station and violently tearing ballot boxes from the hands of polling officers, and even the very ballot papers from the hands of people who only wish to exercise their right to vote. Surely now the leaders of every democratic government must condemn this outrage. A wee word to my ex MP Brian Wilson. If you really want an example of ugly nationalism, then today’s actions of the Spanish national government is a classic example.

  227. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 18:15,

    That first sentence should read “can’t see” to make sense. That’s what happens when you make last-second edits without re-reading before posting. Apologies.

    (I’m incandescent, that’s really why.)

  228. Robert Graham says:

    With all due respect- Robert what exactly is the point of This EU ?

    If a major event occurred anywhere in the world right now, the EU would offer no opinion, no reaction, maybe sometime in the future we would have a reaction.They shut down at weekends,

    Events in Spain have not started with the opening of polling stations this morning, this whole saga has been weeks maybe years in the making, other than the stated regrets that everyone is offering exactly how have this EU protected its citizens ?

    I say again what are this EU for ? .Like many others I offer an opinion , that’s all it is ,an opinion ,
    no one on this site can in anyway influence events anywhere , so you’re question what would I do ? ,I wouldn’t have them do anything , who is going to act on my requests , just like yours old timer no one , it’s all just opinions , and mine is as valid as Collin Andersons isn’t it Collin ?

  229. Gary45% says:

    Abulhaq and Andy-B, Thanks for that.

  230. galamcennalath says:

    In Catalunya today, we see the peaceful democratic form of nationalism come face to face with ugly dark form.

  231. Ottomanboi says:

    Holding a ref is one thing and having its results recognized is another. Besides, things were different under Cameron. The new dispensation is much more hard line.
    Westminster considers constitutional affairs are within its competence alone. They are not devolved. The Scottish parliament exists by the ‘grace and favour’ of Westminster. There being no formal, codified British constitution as such lawyers would be inclined to recognize Westminster as the principle agent in such matters.

  232. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Davie Oga @ 18:16,

    I take the strongest possible exception to your provocative use of “deny” associated with the likes of “foreign residents” at the indyref.

    Since you are not God nor have access to a secret ballot, you have no justification whatever in making such an unsubstantiated and inflammatory statement.

    It’s pish, in other words.

  233. Abulhaq says:


  234. Meg merrilees says:

    Absolutely shocked to see the violence being waged by Spanish police in Catalonia.

    These brave people are to be celebrated for their courage and Spain SHOULD HANG ITS HEAD IN SHAME.

    How can you fire bullets ( rubber no different really) at your own people??????

    This is 2017 not 1937; Franco is dead; Spain is a democracy ( that’s a laugh) wonder how the Gibraltarians feel watching this?

    I salute the people of Catalunya.

    Soc Catalunya – Visca Democracia.

  235. geeo says:

    @ottomanboi @ 6.27.

    Utter drivel.

    Away and educate yourself on constitutional reality.

    Fucking wet sop moron.

  236. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Oh dear, the anti-EU mutterings are abroad again.

    It’s the old story, “heads I win, tails you lose”.

    If the “EU” (who exactly? The “EU police”? the “EU Army”?) was to immediately intervene (even supposing it had the means to do so), it would be accused of intervening in the affairs of a sovereign country. “Federal superstate” and all that.

    OTOH, if it doesn’t “do something” instantly, it’s equally instantly accused of being totally useless.

    Note: even the UN can’t intervene without the permission of the recognised sovereign government. That’s the basic problem here, not “the EU”.

    Instead of rushing to premature judgement, wait to see how things develop. There are a lot of people right across Europe who are just as affronted by this betrayal of our common standards of decency and governance as you are.

    This thing is not over by a long way. The repercussions of this brutal assault on the people of Catalonia will assuredly be felt.

  237. Meg merrilees says:

    BBC reporting the violence being used against the people in Barcelona trying to vote in AN ILLEGAL referendum.

    Not reporting that the Ppanish Government is ILLEGALLY using violence and armed police against it’s own people.

    You can’t have it both ways RAJOY.

    If the Spanish state is ALL ONE PEOPLE then you are carrying out an illegal act using force against your OWN people.

    If the peoples of Catalonia are not one and the same with the Peoples of Spain, then they have a right to self-determination and as such are protected by the United Nations and you cannot use force against them.

    So, either way the violence that is happening in Spain is ILLEGAL.

    The world is watching RAJOY- shame on you.

  238. We can expect no less from the London Iron Heel Oligarchy and Colonel Davidsons Shock Troops when we hold Indyref 2, now nailed on for October 2018.
    I am amazed at the restraint of the Catalans as they sare beaten, shot at and dragged forcibly across the tarmac by Spain’s fascisti.
    Catalan is now de facto an independent state.

  239. geeo says:

    Absolutely nothing has changed from 2014 regarding process to hold a referendum.

    If you are going to slaver pish ottomanboi, at least try to be more creative.

    Please explain WHAT NEW LAWS were passed since 2014 which changed the process to hold a referendum ?

  240. Nana says:

    Live from Catalonia my report of events witnessed today by international parliamentary delegation

  241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    It’s times like these when you find out who your real friends are. Not least the friends of truth.

    If you see tweets or reports indulging in Trump-style moral equivalencing, using weasel words like “clashes” or not making explicitly clear that the brutality comes solely from the Guardia Civil under the direct command of the Madrid Government, you know exactly how (un)trustworthy that source is.

    This is “show and tell” time for the world’s media (mainstream and social), folks.

  242. Dr Jim says:

    If Scotland didn’t want a referendum every last one of these Unionists would be condemning the Spanish governments behaviour

    One reason and one reason only are Unionists failing to condemn is the fear of Scotland doing the same and that’s why they’re loving the idea of the Catalans being made an example of, to teach us Separatists a lesson

    The British Nationalists couldn’t give two monkeys for the situation in Catalonia or it’s people as long as they think it’ll stop Scotland exercising the same rights

    Jk Rowling can go and piss up a rope with her con trick of fooling her little band of “believers” into thinking she’s really a nice person instead of the International anti democratic trolling machine that she actually is who donates wads of cash to the very people who would perform the same behaviour on Scotlands people given the chance

    Time to give JK Rowling and her fascist British Nationalist chums the chance to do just that or will she stand by her words of kindness when it comes to Scotland the land she says she chooses to love

    And for those waiting for the great Corbyns words of wisdom and truth, question: Just how long did it take him to condemn? well he waited just long enough for the blood to flow whereas Scotlands First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said from the first minute “This is wrong” so, would be Labour supporters just who does have any principles in this country and just who is it who isn’t afraid to say so immediately

    Apparently NOT Jeremy bloody Corbyn…. until the wind is blowing in the right direction

  243. Liz g says:

    geeo @ 6.01
    He also forgot Scotland’s no bound by a written Constitution.
    And it’s only a TREATY holding us in the Union.
    If a vote was suppressed here then the very next General Election would be a quasi referendum.
    Where we could vote in the candidates whose manifesto contains within it the intention to end the Treaty!
    That’s what Thatcher was getting at.
    Of course there is also the possibility that such candidates would be prevented from standing…… therefore it’s very very important for such candidates to be from a party who is recognised internationally and can’t be portrayed as extreme!
    But we a no quite at the using a general election stage yet.
    So we can explore all that stuff later.
    What we should be doing today is exchanging information for the record if for no other reason than to respect our Catilonian cousins… day is I think about them.

  244. Sturt Muir says:

    Whose for brexit now? Still want to be tied to these fascists??

  245. William Wallace says:

    The last time I felt such sadness and such anger at the same time would have to be in the early hours of the 19th of September 2014.

    Can’t convey my true thoughts or feelings about it all today tbh and I am rarely stuck for words. 🙁

    Feeling totally drained. Think I need a wee lie doon.

  246. Graeme Doig says:

    Muscle guy

    Cheers for that. Email sent pledging support for Catalonia and looking forward to Spain’s demise.

    Boycott starts today.

    Come on the Catalans.

  247. Rock says:

    Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

    “The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”

    Anyone seriously believe the EU will come to Scotland’s rescue when the northern British region is crushed by the UK state?

  248. David McDowell says:

    Spain’s psychotic baton-wielding bully boys have failed to halt the vote. Catalonia could be free within days.

  249. Terry says:

    Terrible scenes. And for some reason the firemen getting attacked made me cry. They save lives.

    Sky has decent coverage. Pleasantly surprised. By coincidence I’m reading State of Emergency. It’s set in the near future of a second Scottish independence referendum. Makes me wonder if the Spanish govt have read it.

  250. TheWasp says:

    Yesindyref2 @4.48

    Thatcher used the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders Guarda Civil during the miners strike though, when they were supposed to be in northern Ireland on a tour of duty.

  251. Tinto Chiel says:

    “This thing is not over by a long way. The repercussions of this brutal assault on the people of Catalonia will assuredly be felt.”

    Difficult to get an instant reaction from such a large and complex organisation like the EU but I have little doubt there will be consequences for Spain, RJS.

    It seems the BBC are concentrating on the “illegality” of the poll, as Meg mentioned. I expected the EU to find it difficult to completely support an “unconstitutional” Catalan vote but this Civil Guard brutality will appal many, many people across Europe.

    When I studied the Spanish Civil War, one of the few uplifting aspects of it was the ability to close all the books and say to yourself, “Terrible, but these things are now unthinkable in a new, democratic Spain.”

    How naïve I was: fascism (and The Union) never sleeps.

  252. Sunniva says:

    Guardian live blog just stated that the U.K. Foreign Office spokesperson has issued a statement supportive of ‘our ally’ Spain.

  253. Cadogan Enright says:

    Beside myself with anger watching the BBC headlines

    “Hundreds injured in clashes with Spanish police”

    Clear implication that the peaceful protestors trying to vote are responsible for the violence

  254. Rock says:


    “Not convinced condemning the EU and U.N. at this time is appropriate to be honest.

    Events will be addressed AFTER the full story emerges later tonight and tomorrow.”

    Events like this need to be addressed BEFORE they happen.

    The fascist Spanish state had been openly preparing this for the last couple of weeks.

    Anyone heard any comment about “democracy” from the EU or UN?

    The EU and UN Establishments are no better than the British Establishment.

  255. heedtracker says:

    Cadogan Enright says:
    1 October, 2017 at 7:16 pm
    Beside myself with anger watching the BBC headlines

    Stay away from BBC r2 on the hour news then. Its horrifying listening to them cover up fascist violence in Spain. BBC are as neo fascist as the Spanish government today.

  256. Meg merrilees says:

    Reports of Spanish anti-fascists demonstrating in Madrid calling for Rahoy to resign.
    Vince Cable has said the violence is unacceptable – people should be allowed to vote.
    Verhofstadt has condemned the violence.
    Belgian PM has condemned the violence.
    Nicola has condemned the violence.
    761 injured.

    Spanish prime minister says NO referendum has been held in Catalonia today.

  257. Swiss Perspective says:

    The Independent: “A Foreign Office spokeswoman said: “The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people.
    “We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld.
    “Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us.”

    Good. By that logic we also don’t need to worry about the Rohingas, the Yazadis or the Dreamers. Move along people, nothing to see here. Get back to your porridge.

  258. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “It is indeed now or never time. If the SNP delays an announcement for a referendum much longer it is goodbye to the SNP and to the Independence cause.

    Many parts of rural Scotland are becoming mini Englands already and it is an accelerating trend as the Scots in these areas cannot match the buying powers of the southerners.”

    Rock (7th July – “Feeling the pain”):

    “The SNP has proved to the people that it can govern well.

    It is now time for it to concentrate on independence alone as the top priority, before like, Keir Hardy’s Labour, it becomes completely entrenched into the Westminster system.

    310 years as a colony of England is surely more than enough.

    Let the unionists (mis)govern, with the support of the Greens.

    The more the SNP protects selfish voters from Westminster policies, the less likely there will be a Yes majority.

    As the number of English settlers increases after Brexit, the more No votes for the unionists.

    No-one ever got independence from the British establishment without suffering.

    Shouting and screaming we are “sovereign” never got us anywhere and never will.”

  259. heedtracker says:

    No-one ever got independence from the British establishment without suffering.

    Rock, reading your nonsense and jibberjabber btl is suffering dude.

    Have you thought of a way of blaming the National for fascist Spain’s violence yet?

  260. louis.b.argyll says:

    ‘The EU and UN Establishments are no better than the British Establishment..’

    Absolute nonsense.
    House of Lords? Royal prerogative? Henry VIII rulings? Treasury secrecy? Media donors? Private school elitism? Perpetual conservatism? Democratic deficit?

  261. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Just sent this to Paul Sweeney MP who was twittering that the UN Charter position on on Self Determination was about decolonisation. I am startled at the Labour figures in Scotland seeking to excuse Spain’s behaviour.

    “The UN Charter on the right of self determination (which is referenced in articles 55 and 73 of the original charter) is not about colonisation issues as your disgraceful tweet that seeks to justify the disgraceful behaviour of the Spanish Government today suggests . The 1960 statement is merely a clarification of that essential tenet of the UN Charter in the face of some foot dragging over decolonisation by some nations
    It is unambiguous.
    It says….. “All peoples have the right to self determination; by virtue of that right they freely decide their political status etc etc…It does not say “all peoples except those of Catalonia” or “except those of Scotland” or except those with black beards” or any thing other than “all peoples”. I find it alarming and disgusting that as Labour in London deplores the behaviour of the Spanish government and is asking TMAY to intervene we have a phalanx of Labour figures in Scotland such as Willie Young, Brian Wilson and Duncan Hothersoll and yourself publicly supporting or making excuses for the Spanish Government. Red Tories indeed.”

  262. Rock says:

    Meg merrilees,

    “BBC reporting the violence being used against the people in Barcelona trying to vote in AN ILLEGAL referendum.”

    I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Westminster and hold an independence referendum once Saint Theresa has refused permission.

    But if by 1% chance she does, Pravda GB will report it as AN ILLEGAL referendum.

    And the fascist British state will be much much worse than the fascist Spanish state.

  263. Cadogan enright says:

    heedtracker says:
    1 October, 2017 at 7:22 pm

    We cannot abandon the field to the BBC as too many people still believe them, and we need to fight every mis representation and lie

    Exposing them is essential, for those who know what is going on to ignore the BBC is a dangerous notion that the BBC will thank us for

  264. Proud Cybernat says:

    Watching all this from New York. Shocked and utterly disgusted. Brave Catalans. So very brave.

  265. North chiel says:

    Live coverage from Barcelona on Euronews . Our FM has recently been quoted
    on here.

  266. Petra says:

    @ Liz g at 4:45pm …. “G4S.” Great minds think alike, lol. Add to that troops dressed as Police Officers. Meanwhile they continue to rely on their little army of MSM liars to fight their battle for them.

    @ Dave at 5:25pm …. “Now or never time.”

    To be honest Dave I’m pretty well scunnered with this. Arran is lovely and my time there was relaxing but it just stuck in my craw that every one I came across working in restaurants / cafes / distilleries etc was a non-Scot. Most everyone else I spoke to on my travels was a non-Scot. On boarding the ferry to come home the guy regulating cars boarding was a non-Scot as was the guy who sold me food, one who cleared my table and another restaurant worker who got involved in an Independence discussion. The latter three had all worked on the rigs, were paid off (managed to get themselves a job very quickly with Cal-Mac) and were adamant that the oil industry is finished. Every other point that I tried to make was countered with basically a load of cr*p no doubt generated by being steeped in MSM propaganda, such as we’re too small to make it on our own. Absolutely dismissive at any mention of Scandanavian countries. Every person I spoke to was totally against Independence with some openly antagonistic against Nicola Sturgeon. Others that I didn’t manage to get into an Indyref conversatation with veered off as soon as the subject was mentioned, which was quite telling.

    Following Indyref1 I voiced that if I was David Cameron the way to keep Independence at bay was to sit back and let Scotland become saturated with individuals from rUK, get his massive network of Tory cronies to buy holiday homes and so on. Imo it seems to be working. If legal, Nicola Sturgeon should impose as part of the franchise a residential limit of ten years, plus a total ban on holiday home owners. She also stated that as soon as we had a clear idea of the Brexit deal she’d call for another Referendum. That point in time is now looming large, as we should have a good idea of where Brexit is going by next spring. She should then request a Section 30 order and if “now is not the time” she should go ahead and set a date for late next year. If Westminster states that it’s illegal that’s when the sovereignty issue should kick in. More so of course if more than 50% of Scots vote for Independence. Unlike Catalonia we are a Nation, a Kingdom, and the UK has no written Constitution.

    And before anyone jumps on me I’m fully aware that a percentage of individuals from rUK now living in Scotland will support Independence but are we going to leave it to chance that we have a repeat of Indyref1 whereby 74% of them voted No? Research findings indicating that this is what lost us the vote. Three years on the numbers have risen dramatically. What next over the next three years or so with additionally the total undermining of the SNP which won’t be too difficult with EU nationals (NHS etc) leaving the UK in droves. As mentioned already if we don’t vote in the very near future we can forget it. Just my opinion of course.


    BBC Scotland news. Footage of Catalonians forcing the Forces to back off and that was it. Not a drop of blood in sight.

  267. mike cassidy says:

    As a fully paid-up member of Cynics United –

    Sky is providing the coverage it is because it suits Murdoch to display a key member of the EU in all its glory.

    The ‘best be out of it’ subtext is hardly subtle.

  268. heedtracker says:

    And the fascist British state will be much much worse than the fascist Spanish state.

    Attaboy Rock. Embrace the terror.

    Your silly YESer mask hasn’t just slipped off with today in Spain Rock, you’ve thrown it in the UKOK recycled bin and you’ve gone completely mad with the thrill of it all.

    Still, make UKOK hay while the sun shines Rock eh?

  269. Al Dossary says:

    Spanish PM Rajoy has just outdone “Comical Ali’s” quote about there being no US forces Baghdad with his “No Referendum” quote.

    The whole world has seen the clips of the Guardia Civil’s brutality. The EU must deal with this in whatever manner it legally can ASAP or it is finished as a credible force. If they do nothing, then I imagine that any Indy referendum will also need to promise an EU / ETA / EUxit vote immediately after Indy.

    Right now May and her treacherous band will be watching and praying that the EU does nothing against Rajoy. Hell what do they care – it’s not as if the EU can punish them now.

  270. Sunniva says:

    Planning legislation could easily be used to block sales to people from wealthy parts of the U.K. or elsewhere from buying up family sized properties in Scotland. It would be controversial, yet it is used elsewhere in the world as a mechanism to protect housing for locals. In the Channel Islands, for instance. I believe the Channel Islands are not part of the EU. EU anti competition law might well prevent such measures at present but once we are out of the EU and no longer bound by its rules, the Scottish Government could use planning to protect local housing markets if there was evidence to show that locals were being priced out.

  271. Alex Clark says:

    Rock (aka Craig) wasn’t always this way or maybe he was and back then he was just wheedling his way in. You know trust me LOL.

    Rock says:
    22 June, 2014 at 12:45 am
    Tartan Tory, donald anderson, CameronB Brodie, kininvie,

    It has been said so many times by those on the Yes side that the referendum is about Yes or No to independence from Westminster rule.

    It is the No side (the British Establishment) which deliberately lies about it being an SNP / Alex Salmond issue.

    Let us secure a Yes vote first, we will decide everything else democratically afterwards.

  272. yesindyref2 says:

    “Stone said he had seen voters pulled out of polling stations by their hair and stamped on by police, while rubber bullets – illegal in Catalonia – were also used to disperse crowds.”

    Rubber bullets illegal in Catalonia? So I guess there will be prosecutions.

    Polls shut I think but anyone already in the Q will be allowed to vote.

  273. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Lenny Hartley at 1.12

    He was a member of the SNP in Dunoon as he left school, as was his brother. That was before I came to Dunoon. It has been related to me that he fell out with the committee and stomped off. They sid he was a little shite. They got that right. Dunoon Grammar School has a lot to answer for what with “Lord” George Robertson as well.

  274. schrodingers cat says:

    there are politicians all over europe shitting themselves 2night.

    spain has handled this very badly, a genie just shot out of a bottle and wont be returning any time soon. a tempest will soon blow through europe and sweep the old order away.

    movements across europe are mobilising and organising,


    our time approaches too. get ready

  275. David Smith says:

    We are all Catalans today…

  276. geeo says:


    Still eagerly awaiting your list of what new laws were passed since 2014 which changed the process to hold a referendum ?

    Struggling with such a simple question kiddo ?

    Go figure.

  277. artyhetty says:

    No matter what happens, and what has happened, how it is spun by the Britnat media is what we need to counter.

    Anyone condoning the utter brutality by the Spanish ‘police’ no matter their view on independence for Catalonia, should think again. The worm can easily turn, it might be their turn next when they oppose some extreme actions taken by their own government, it doesn’t matter where you are.

    The brutality on the peaceful people of Catalonia today is not something anyone, anywhere should condone or accept. It is not legal, or democratic to oppress people for exercising their democratic right to make a political choice. To accept that, would be a very dangerous and frightening path to take.

    We have a choice now, the people decide, and get to exercise their opinion, ie a vote, or for that to be deemed illegal, and denied by the state.

    Th EU needs to decide where it stands on this, and what the boundaries are. If boundaries are allowed to be crossed, democratic boundaries, then we are all living in very dangerous times indeed.

    I hope that the Spanish gov allows and respects the count, and goes into talks with Catalonia, if needed, otherwise they risk the future of their country and their kids futures. Simple.

  278. Andy-B says:

    “All of Europe stands with Barcelona. Our thoughts are with the victims and all affected by this cowardly attack on innocents.”

    Said Donald Tusk.

  279. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Sickening but expected view of BritNat Labour in Scotland:

    Duncy Horsefeathers would have taken a job at Auschwitz nae doot as it was all above board and legal according to the laws of the 3rd Reich.

    Puts his “Scottish Dissident” strapline on his twitter into perspective.

    He isnae a dissident he is a conformist, a “Yes man” for the Union.


    Yet these BritNat Labour in Scotland sing “The Red Flag” and claim to be Internationalist & Socialist maintaining the legacy of:

  280. louis.b.argyll says:

    Who’s vile now?

  281. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    BritNat Conformist Duncy Horsefeathers has more in common with the Sots who backed Franco and the Spanish Fascits:

    “Support for the Nationalists came predominantly from local BUF branches and from aristocracy such as the 8th Earl of Glasgow, who held long-standing military ties. Captain Archibald Maule Ramsay, the Scottish Unionist MP for Peebles, formed the United Christian Front, whose manifesto alleged that Franco’s forces were engaged in fighting the Anti-Christ in Spain, while Major-General Sir Walter Maxwell-Scott formed the Scottish Friends of National Spain, whose first meeting is notable for denying that the attack on Guernica was air-based, and resulting in a riot with pro-Republican protestors.”

    Also note the usual suspects:

    Papers such as the “Daily Mail” and the “Daily Express” often functioned as anti-Republican propaganda, as did (to a lesser extent) the “Glasgow Evening Express”.

  282. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dave Mcewan Hill 20:05 thanks for confirming re Wilson. apparently McConnel was pro SNP at skool on Arran, I’m a bit older than himm so had left or had been Thrown out before he attended Arran High. but have heard that during any mock elections etc he always argued for Independence.
    Strange people these red Tories.

  283. twathater says:

    email sent to Spanish consulate

    Dear sir I am disgusted and outraged at the violence being deployed against innocent people whose only CRIME is to participate in a referendum to express their inaliable right to determine their future
    The violence being perpetrated by these thugs in uniform on the orders of the Spanish government on innocent people has brought enormous SHAME on Spain”s attitude to democracy
    People across the globe will witness the horrors of state sponsored thuggery and oppression carried out by violent mean spirited aggressors representing the Spanish state and will be appalled, the reputation of Spain as a democratic free country has been forever tarnished due to this disgraceful display of unwarranted violence and coercion

  284. Hamish100 says:

    Loiusb argyle

    The Brit nat BBC, press and unionist parties.
    By the way shouldn’t you be an Argyll?

  285. ahundredthidiot says:

    Disappointed with the rush to judge the EU on this. Maybe take a breath while the Spanish keep shooting themselves in the foot/feet.
    In the cold light of day, so long as no one dies, this will be good for Catalonia.
    Spain only has itself to blame for not addressing this years ago.
    We should be more worried about the UK throwing together a Constitution to prevent an Indyref2

  286. mike d says:

    RT news today making it clear that the violence came from the guardia civil (paramilitary thugs). Unlike the lying b*****d. BBC with their”clashes with police”

  287. heedtracker says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    1 October, 2017 at 8:17 pm
    Sickening but expected view of BritNat Labour in Scotland:

    But isnt interesting just how excited and agitated britnats like Hothersall really are today, or Rock btl on here even.

    There’s all kinds of Britnat yoon juices flowing uncontrolled all over the place, in their Scotland region, with lots of phony democratic and leftie masks sliding off in Scotland and England today.

  288. Anne says:


    I really enjoy your posts but as someone from Norn Iron who has made my home in Scotland, I am deeply uneasy about the assertion that people like me can’t be trusted to support independence. I have worked hard to persuade my friends and colleagues to see the benefits of an independent Scotland, and really appreciated the inclusiveness of the movement. Surely we are needed to help build our new nation, and to counter the proud-scots-but? Wings, and Scottish identity, is not a narrow sect where only the faithful, with the fortune to be born in the right place, are admitted.

  289. Tinto Chiel says:

    Encouraging stuff from Donald (Scottish ) Tusk, Andy-B @8.16.

    And well said on both counts, JWT.

    I don’t know which I despise more, the BBC’s reported responses or the utter horseshit from the International Socialists of British Labour.

    Nothing yet from Gorgeous George Galloway?

    Cannae wait…


  290. yesindyref2 says:

    That from Donald Tusk was on Aug 17 after the terrorist attack on Barcelona. Nothing to do with the referendum. Catalans for YES are getting a bit carried away, in more ways than one.

  291. izzie says:

    Dear God I feel so ashamed that we bottled our bid for independence when I see what they are going through. I hope Holyrood try to pass a motion indicating support for the people of Catalonia in their bid to exercise their democratic rights.

  292. crazycat says:

    @ Breeks at 5.45

    Re: imported police forces

    In 2005, when the G8 summit was being held at Gleneagles, there was (amongst other “alternative summit” events) a large demonstration at the Dungavel Detention Centre.

    For some time prior to that, Ayrshire Friends of the Refugees had been holding small events a few times a year – Mothering Sunday, St Andrew’s Day and so on – and had established a good rapport with the local police.(Dungavel is in Lanarkshire, but it was AFR who organized the events.)

    On this occasion, however, there were many more people from much further afield. The police closed the road past the centre (which I ignored; all they had done was put up signs and nobody stopped me) and instigated massive detours for people coming from Glasgow. Those police were not the local force; they were from the Met and Greater Manchester, as you suggested. A few days later they were also in attendance at Faslane when there was a demo there. There was no rapport then.

    I doubt they were cheered on by UKIP, but a precedent has been set.

  293. Andy-B says:


    You are indeed correct, it’s been posted on the Catalan for yes site in the last half hour or so. Probably because the words fit spectacularly well with the Catalan cause of today.

  294. Robert Craig says:

    Spanish Consulate is at:

    63, North Castle Street
    Edinburgh EH2 3LJ
    United Kingdom

    Protest there tomorrow? Set up a ballot box, peaceable sham vote, show that it’s allowed in a civilised country?

  295. heedtracker says:

    Look at it. This is fascism BBC style. They are voters not protestors, Spanish police are firing rubber bullets not projectiles.

    BBC Breaking News?Verified account @BBCBreaking 10h10 hours ago

    Spanish police fire rubber projectiles at pro-independence protesters in Barcelona during Catalan referendum

  296. joannie says:

    RTE has been as bad as the BBC, their headline on the Six One news was “Clashes between police and protesters in Catalonia” as if there were two sets of people attacking each other. I’ve been looking at the footage all day and apart from one guy who threw a chair at police smashing through the door of a polling booth, (and I don’t blame him), all the attacks have been police on peaceful citizens.

    This is just awful, I can’t believe I’m seeing scenes like this in 21st century Europe.

  297. yesindyref2 says:

    That would be S01 (now Protection Command) for the G8 summit, and yes, the Met and GM police also drafted in to help. It’s the same as Police Scotland went down for the Olympics I think, and various other large events.

    When the Royals are here it would be S017 (now Protection Command).

    Yes, someone found it and enthusiastically posted it because they thought it was recent, and what they would want to happen. But as Robert Peffers says, any official response from the EU would ahve to be debated and voted on, by the Parliament and / or the Councils.

    Nothing to stop individual members making comments like the Belgian PM did, wouldn’t suprise me if the Danish guy did. The UK of course will support Spain in its craven fashion.

    But then look at the way the UK suppressed the student demonstration in London with its “kettling”, nothing ever happened about that.

  298. heedtracker says:

    Comic relief? Colonel Davidson’s certainly got interesting takes on her own amazing winning abilities, to lose, everywhere.

  299. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, Royals were S014, I think S017 was the one that provided protection some time for Salmond, and probably would for Sturgeon. Except it’s renamed. Shrug.

  300. twathater says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    1 October, 2017 at 4:48 pm

    @Graeme: “ I don’t believe for one minute they wouldn’t resort to the same tactics if they run out of options”

    With who? The Guardia Civil that DO NOT EXIST in the UK?

    There is no national police force in the UK, only “regional” ones.
    Also Breeks

    yesindy2 I remember the miners strike , the police coming from all over the UK boasting about their overtime payments flaunting it in the miners faces
    I remember police officers ?? with no identifying shoulder pads ,a former police officer adamant that they were members of the army or armed forces , his senior officer had no authority over
    I remember police officers driving the Y&D lorries through picket lines
    I remember the extreme violence visited on the pickets , where the Brutish Bullshitting Corporation lied that the pickets had ATTACKED the police
    So i’m afraid you will have to excuse my tin foil hat belief that the UK government of any stripe would not mirror the Spanish response to ANY challenge to their god given right to own the sweaty socks.

    You might want to ask the decimated mining communities if they believe the government play nice guys

  301. Rock says:

    Alex Clark,

    “Rock (aka Craig) wasn’t always this way or maybe he was and back then he was just wheedling his way in.”

    Alex Clark (aka Thepnr) was always this way:

    Thepnr (9th June 2014 – “A great fire in our hearts”):

    “I hear what you saying, but the worst cringe of all is odrinary working people looking down on those well off for whatever reason and it does happen.”


    “I wouldn’t agree with you on that.

    Some ordinary working people may not like those who are well off, but no one looks down on them.

    It is ordinary working people who are always looked down upon everywhere.”

    Thepnr (28th January 2015 – “Know what you’re voting for”):

    “I see it a little differently. With 50+ MP’s in Westminster the SNP would hold the Balance of Power on any issues voted on in the HoC.”


    “How can 50 SNP MP’s hold the balance of power against 550 opponents?

    The illegal Iraq war vote was won because the official opposition voted with the government.

    Any issues of any meaningful benefit to Scotland would be voted down by the different coloured Tories voting together.

    We should perhaps go back to the mantra of an SNP majority from Scotland at Westminster means Independence.

    We can’t achieve anything at Westminster while playing according to their rules.”

  302. Bob Mack says:

    I wish to be part of a Democracy. What we have witnessed today is a clear indication that current democracies are nothing more than a word and an ideal,but with no actions to give it substance. It currently means nothing. My great uncle fought in the International Brigade against such evil.

    More than ever I want Scotland to set up a true democracy worthy of the name. We must not fail, even though we will have our own fascist resistance.

    I feel quite sick tonight.

  303. Kenny says:

    The silence from the EU should not come as a surprise. It is a question of money and economics.

    The main thing to the EU is the success of the EU project. Just as the UK will collapse if/when Scotland leaves taking with it £1 trillion of oil, Spain losing Catalunya will tip Spain further into depression.

    Everyone is in hock so much that just losing Catalunya alone will be disastrous for Spain. And if Spain “falls”, then it will bring the whole Euro project down. And that must NOT be allowed to happen.

    Also, will Spain remain Spain following the departure of the Catalans? Besides the issue of the Basques, it is very unlikely that Spain will hold together, as it will become a free-for-all with individual REGIONS feeling aggrieved.

    All this shows that the EU simply cannot be trusted. When will we ever learn? The Kurds say that the only friends the Kurds have are the mountains. They are right to think this way. Rely on no one else but YOURSELF and your direct neighbours.

    Too many of the SNP leadership enjoy being achingly “right-on”. I am sorry, but just because you are welcomed by Guy Verhofstadt and you publish it on Twitter, means SFA for Scotland. At least get their promises and pledges down in writing!

    We must be independent to decide whether or not we WANT to join the EU, NATO, have a monarchy, whatever. Indy should not be a “project” to build a pre-planned Scotland. Otherwise, all future indyrefs will just be reruns of all other elections (SNP + Green voters v Unionist party voters).

  304. Rock says:

    Alex Clark (aka Thepnr) started hating and attacking me when I pointed out that embracing Tories was not a good idea.

    Thepnr (10th May 2015 – “The power of the press”):

    “Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”


    “Target and embrace the ones who can be persuaded.

    That is why the Radical Independence Campaign was so successful and the Yes campaign in the SNP “heartlands” a disaster.

    Do you seriously believe that spending limited resources on persuading Tories in Scotland to vote for independence is a good idea?”

  305. David says:

    Im in Cataluna right now.

    Cant help but be moved by the Catalan police moving to protect the civilians from the Guardia Civil.

    Ive always hated the Guardia Civil. I can see it was justified now.

    Bunch of cunts.

  306. ben madigan says:

    here are my thoughts on the dreadful scenes we’ve been seeing from catalonia, Wings cited at the end as go-to site!!!

  307. Alex Clark says:


    I would be much obliged if instead of talking endless shite you gave us your view of the current situation in Catalonia.

    I await your words of wisdom.

  308. Toni says:

    Rajoy has announced, “there was no independence referendum in Catalonia today”.

  309. David Smith says:

    If you need force like that to keep your construct together then your construct is worth precisely fuck all and it deserves to fucking collapse like the sack of fucking shit it is. And I use my words sparingly.

  310. packhorse pete says:

    This is the email address for the Spanish consul in Edinburgh, to which I’ve registered a protest.

    Bombard them!

  311. Rock says:

    Alex Clark,


    Since you brought this up here for no reason, let us look at another comment in that article:

    Rock (22 June 2014 – “Good faith and bad practice”):

    “I could perhaps agree with you about Scottish Tories but Ruth “line in the sand” Davidson IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED ONE BIT, to say the least.

    She is a total bully on TV debates and her tone at FM Questions is disgraceful.

    She came 4th in her constituency with less than 10% of the vote yet she gets the privilege of abusing and insulting the democratically elected First Minister.

    She is worse than an English Tory and represents everything that makes the Tories so hated in Scotland.

    And then there is that Tory scum Alex Johnstone —.”

  312. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    What the “legalists” seem to turn a blind eye upon is that the whole purpose of a constitution is to defend the fundamental rights of free citizens, not provide a tissue-thin veneer for brutal paramilitary represssion of the selfsame citizens!

    If the constitution is broke, it needs fixing. That’s why they have these cute things called “amendments”.

    (Shucks, how hard now is that?)

    What the legalists typically fail to mention is that that the rightist government of Rajoy has completely stonewalled all reasonable attempts to make any amendment since becoming Prime Minister in 2011. Nor that the constitutional court itself is stuffed with political appointees (only 2 out of 12 are appointed by the judiciary itself), and its trashing in 2010 of the long-promised enhancements to Catalan autonomy were highly-questionable due to dubious manoeverings concerning its members at the time.

    So much for that kind of “legality”.

  313. Macart says:

    According to Rajoy, there was no vote today.

    The Catalonian people have shown exceptional courage in the face of state sanctioned aggression. Their peaceful vote and protest should be a moment of immense pride and an example we shouldn’t forget in my opinion.

  314. schrodingers cat says:

    Gerard Piqué, barca player

    An emotional Gerard Pique offered his resignation from the Spain national team following the #CatalanReferendum

  315. Free Scotland says:

    According to Horse Erse Hothersall, voting equals breaking the law. That excuse for a man gives me the dry boak.

  316. heedtracker says:

    Alex Clark says:
    1 October, 2017 at 9:12 pm

    Rock uses anything to try and start a fight with anyone. He’s a yoon on a mission. Speaking of which, check out Bob Peston. Looks like England’s toryboy creepshow have the hots for future UKOK Prime Minister Colonel Ruth.

    Never say never to the toryboys. They own this deeply creepy UK. Aint it so Rock.

    Robert Peston?Verified account

    This is a very dangerous speech by @RuthDavidsonMSP for @theresa_may – because Davidson is what every modern politician dreams of being, namely funny and plausible
    7:53 am – 1 Oct 2017

  317. yesindyref2 says:

    @twathater and others
    The Miners strike was beforre 1999 and the police all over the UK were controlled from the Home Office. In 1999 policing was devolved, and is now under the control of the Scottish Government who merged the 8 regional forces into one – Police Scotland.

    Extra police as required are requested via presumably the Chief Constable, from one regional force to another.

    Bit if police in Scotland, or extra police requested by Police Scotland were to turn on voters, it would be the Scottish Government who would have to sanction that, not the Home Office or Westminster. Can you really see that happening?

  318. Helena Brown says:

    Seems the problem with all these aggressive imperialists is they are still stuck in the seventeenth century. It would be good to see them face an international court and answer for their crimes. Anyway could they not have asked that lot in Westminster how they fiddled the result of ours.

  319. Giving Goose says:

    Regarding the behaviour of the likes of Wilson, Hothersall and Scottish Labour, it has to be understood what motivates their thinking.

    These monsters (and they most definitely are monsters) are British Nationalists Ultras and they embrace fascism, the two are intertwined.

  320. Rock says:

    Alex Clark,


    I would be much obliged if instead of talking endless shite you gave us your view of the current situation in Catalonia.

    I await your words of wisdom.”

    Where were you when I posted this:

    Rock says:
    1 October, 2017 at 7:04 pm

    Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

    “The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”

    “Anyone seriously believe the EU will come to Scotland’s rescue when the northern British region is crushed by the UK state?”

    1 hour AFTER I had posted that, you brought up a completely unrelated comment from June 2014 for no reason at all.

    Says more about you than me.

    To end, this is what the great Robert Peffers thinks of you:

    “Robert Peffers says (to Alex Clark aka Thepnr):
    27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm

    “Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”

  321. David Caledonia says:

    Kick them out of the European Union now, this is the unacceptable face of the anti/democratic elite, get rid of them now

  322. heedtracker says:

    These monsters (and they most definitely are monsters) are British Nationalists Ultras and they embrace fascism, the two are intertwined.

    We probably should face the fact that guys like them would dearly love to see us YESers getting the same treatment today, that the Catalonians have suffered. And it would all be explained as YES vote law breaking.

    It’s been a real wake up call.

  323. Glamaig says:

    heedtracker says:
    1 October, 2017 at 9:32 pm

    That C4 presenter appallingly aggressive, rude and ignorant there. What a nasty piece of work. Is this only a feature of UK journalists? (unless theyre interviewing Colonel Davidson of course) I watch Deutsche Welle and France24 a lot and its refreshing how polite and respectful their interviewers are.

  324. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Kenny @ 21:02,

    You seem very confused. A veritable ragbag of misunderstandings and prejudices.

    For starters, what has the situation in Catalonia got to do with the euro, FGS? If Catalonia were to become independent, what makes you think they would stop using the euro? Everyone is agreed that Catalonia is wealthy enough to stand on its own, and the remainder of Spain would have to adjust accordingly. Whether or not it was in the EU.

    The real obstacle to progress towards a “Europe of the regions” is not your fantasy EU bogey-man, but the nation states, which are themselves essentially nineteenth-century creations. It is those same nation states (or their imperial predecessors) who gave us all that aggravation in the previous century.

    The EU was founded precisely to save us descending into that kind of madness again. “All for one and one for all” instead of “beggar my neighbour”.

    The main haters of the EU are all those nation-state nationalists like we see bashing people up on behalf of Spain in Catalonia today. Is that then the kind of people you agree with?

  325. Robert Graham says:

    Looks like google are closing ranks with the Spanish authorities , usually in the google app on the iPad just below the search bar you have a list of current news, have a look ,Spain or anything remotely connected with Spain is suspiciously blank nothing not a word , coincidence Aye so it is.

  326. geeo says:

    Catalan gov going to international courts.

    Response required now.

    Catalonia vows to go to intl. courts, calls on EU sanctions against Spain for referendum violence

  327. Brian Powell says:

    The bizarre thing about the No politicians in Scotland is they have no idea how to proceed or what to do with the No result. They don’t have the Yes movement with the No vote.

  328. heedtracker says:

    That C4 presenter appallingly aggressive, rude and ignorant there

    She is isn’t she. But again, we have to face facts…this is how the English tory mindset works, when it comes to their Scotland region.

    They are world famous for their, “who bloody hell do you think you upstarts think you are” kind of rule Britannia, often just before the bullets started whizzing past their ears too, in countless places and countries, over the decades.

    We are the last of the many.

  329. Alex Clark says:

    “Carles Puigdemont, Catalan’s leader, has announced that the region has won the right to independence following today’s referendum.”

    From the Guardian with more to follow.

  330. geeo says:

    For those wondering about the Catalan police during today…protecting their people is the answer.

  331. Rock says:


    “Rock uses anything to try and start a fight with anyone.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, readers can see that none of my comments had been addressed to either yourself or to Alex Clark (aka Thepnr).

    But just as the SNP is like a red flag to Scottish Labour, “Rock” is a like a red flag to the likes of you.

    You have been told countless times that if you suspect a poster of being a troll, ignore him (or her).

    But you just wont listen.

    Readers will notice that in all your posts, you attack me rather than posting your counter arguments:

    Rock says: 1 October, 2017 at 7:04 pm

    Rock says: 1 October, 2017 at 7:18 pm

    Rock says: 1 October, 2017 at 7:40 pm

    heedtracker says: 1 October, 2017 at 7:49 pm

    Rock says: 1 October, 2017 at 7:50 pm

    heedtracker says: 1 October, 2017 at 8:03 pm

    Alex Clark says: 1 October, 2017 at 8:04 pm

    heedtracker says: 1 October, 2017 at 8:28 pm

    See you tomorrow, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, as unlike you I am not on this website 24 hours.

    heedtracker (9th February 2017 – “A division of principles”):

    “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”


    “If anyone can tip the balance in favour of winning, it is this site and its author.”

  332. Welsh Sion says:

    Apologies for sourcing the Beeb.

    BREAKING NEWS – More to follow:

  333. Patsy Millar says:

    Awful and the BBC’s reporting clashes! It’s police and government brutality pure and simple.

  334. geeo says:

    BBC breaking news on BBC 1.

    There was trouble in Catalonia today …actually reporting it now !!

  335. Andy MacNicol says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    1 October, 2017 at 1:12 pm

    Wasn’t Brian Wilson a member of the SNP in Dunnon (dave Mcewan Hill?) and chucked it when he was told he wasn’t good enough to stand for office?

    He was indeed. He also stood as the SNP candidate in a mock election at Dunoon Grammar School and won. I voted for him. I even spent a pleasant afternoon drinking session with him one Cowal Games. I wouldn’t give the little shit the time of day now. His hatred of the SNP overrides his capacity for rational thought and his life revolves around getting one up on them, failing miserably and giving himself a right showing up in the process.

  336. Marcia says:

    Some of the results from the Catalonian polling district have been appearing on twitter. Yes by a mile. If only in 2014…………

  337. Petra says:

    @ Anne at 8:30pm ….. “Assertion that people like me can’t be trusted to support Independence …..”

    Anne I apologise if I have hurt your feelings and no doubt those of many others who visit the site / post on here. I’m sure that you’re a fantastic, hardworking supporter, one of 26% who have chosen to make Scotland your home / voted Yes, but the facts are that 74% of people from rUK voted No last time round and as mentioned already that group lost us the vote. Put paid to us acquiring our freedom from Westminster. Since then the numbers of people, say relocating from England to Scotland has risen dramatically and this will no doubt continue due to freebies on offer, Brexit, dire ENHS / Social Care policy, Tories benefit system, treatment of the disabled, cuts to housing benefits / numbers of young homeless, parents with larger families and so on. The aforementioned of course may eventually account for a greater number supporting Independence but will it make a defining difference? Will we get our Independence? Or just find ourselves in the position of forking out money hand over fist to mitigate the worst of Tory excesses, to ever increasing numbers of people, to the point that Holyrood is deemed to be no longer viable?

    You say, “surely we are needed to help to build our new Nation.” Anne as I see it there will be no new nation to build at all if history repeats itself and if we don’t win this time round there’s a possibility we never will. A ten year residency limit, or even 5 / 6 years, could make a massively positive difference to the outcome by additionally preventing students, short term migrant workers and those who rented apartments for a couple of months and then jiggered off … home … after the vote.

    Once again sorry if I have offended you Anne.

  338. Old Pete says:

    UDI for Catalonia could be ? What next by Spain send in the Army ? Interesting times indeed.

  339. mike d says:

    Petra.sensible honest post.

  340. boris says:

    The brutal attacks on Catalonia’s citizens by Civil Guard para-military troopers, ferried by sea into the province by the State government was unnecessary and had nothing to do with preventing today’s referendum which it had already declared illegal.

    The State authorities should have listened to wiser counsel and allowed the referendum to be conducted without incident or interference then simply ignored the outcome if a majority had voted to leave Spain.

    So what was the point of today’s debacle?

    It was an abject failure of politicians of the Spanish State holding views at odds with similar persons in Catalonia, to listen and be guided in their actions by the voice of the people of Catalonia.

    Behaving as they did today the Spanish politicians responsible have betrayed its own constitution and breached the human rights of all citizens of Catalonia.

    In the absence of any punitive actions against Spain by the EU it would be for the UN to suspend Spain’ membership since it is in clear breach of the UN Charter to which Spain is a signator

  341. heedtracker says:


    “If anyone can tip the balance in favour of winning, it is this site and its author.”

    Its not going to be a balance tip Rock. But Rock are U feeling ok, you’ve not told everyone to stop buying the National tonight. Well done though, lots of fights picked, farce union saved, for another UKOK day.

    Byeee Rock:D

  342. Tinto Chiel says:

    On the night when Catalunya tries to face down Spanish state fascism, one egotist @10.01 can only find the time to recycle his egotism.

  343. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Alex Clark @ 21:59,

    A demonstration of what real leadership can achieve by engineering a suitable confrontation then “taking a tide at the flood”? =grin=

    If thankfully not so deadly in action, this situation seems very reminiscent in effect of the Irish Easter Rising. A gross over-reaction by a tone-deaf government drives support of the neutral majority into the arms of its opponents.

  344. fionan says:

    Angela Merkel has called on rajoy to explain the violence of the paramilitaries towards the peacefully voting Catalonians.

    Maybe we are being a bit hasty over the eu saying nothing. Next few days will be interesting.

    My thoughts also with the Catalan injured today – one post above showed a young woman whose fingers had been broken – it looked to me via my poor Spanish, relating it to Catalan, that she had her fingers broken ‘one by one’ – a cold and callous deliberate act not just of violence but torture. It has been a truly shocking day, and the Catalan people have shown remarkable bravery and restraint. Respect!

  345. Clootie says:

    Spain hits a new low but Labour tries hard to beat them to the bottom.
    The BBC repays Spainfor their support in 2014 by playing down events.
    Europe has stepped back in time as regards democracy.

    A sad day.

  346. Dramfineday says:

    Wow…what can I say that has not already been expressed more eloquently by others on this day of days? I’m just on here to give a supporting hug to the Catalan people, especially those injuried and who will be hurting tonight. Such bravery in the face of such hostility.

  347. Brian Powell says:

    It doesn’t matter what Brits think about EU response to Spain, though major EU leaders have been asking throughout the day for explanations and answers from the Madrid Gov, because the UK is out of the EU.

  348. sarah says:

    @dramfineday 10.23 Hear, hear. And thank you, Rev, for giving us such a graphic report of what has happened today in Catalonia.

  349. Alex Clark says:


    For the second Independence referendum I now agree that a residency rule makes sense. Those who are just resident in Scotland for a fleeting time and for whom the result would be irrelevant should not have a vote.

    I agreed with the SNP the last time in that we all should have a vote but that was naive. Many who voted would have no interest in the outcome other than it suited their beliefs and not the fact that they would be living in an Independent Scotland.

    There must be no exclusion of those not born in Scotland other than they must have lived here for say 5 years and that then shows a commitment to Scotland and remaining in Scotland.

    We can ask no more than that, can we then be accused of skewing things in favour of a Yes vote? Yes of course we can be accused but that means nothing if the remit of the vote is totally justified.

    For example those living in Scotland from outside Scotland on a 3 or 4 year degree course should not have a vote. Neither should anyone that has a home here but lives here for less than 180 days of the year.

    Let the people of Scotland decide, those that have to live with governments we never voted for as has happened since forever.

  350. TheWasp says:

    Twathater @ 8.57

    My wife’s cousin was a leading official in the NUM, and her uncle was an old school communist radical miner. They both attended the picket line at longannet power station. The miners were confronted by “police” in full riot gear, as you said with no numbers or insignia.
    Nothing much was going on, so both sides decided to have a smoke break. The police had to lift their protective visors for this to happen, and this was when one of the miners let out a “what the f#@k are you doing here”. The guy had just seen his brother, a serving soldier, allegedly at that time in Belfast, dressed as a riot policeman.
    Indyref2 is correct that the SG run police Scotland, but Westminster runs the forces, and will use them when and how they see fit, etc George Square 1919

  351. Davy says:

    Hail Catalonia. bravest of the brave.

  352. heedtracker says:

    George Square 1919

    History repeats, Scottish soldiers were confined to barracks in Maryhill, during that uprising too.

  353. Artyhetty says:


    I have to agree with you. Those allowed a vote in Scotland should have had to be wholly resident for 3+ years at least.
    If as you say, many people are migrating from England, they will be reaping the benefits of having a Scottish government who are having to mitigate the most horrendous UKGov austerity on our poorest and most vulnerable.Thereby living in a more socially just and successful country to the one they have chosen to leave. In England, maybe depends where you live, but in NE Eng you will get your ‘free’ bus pass when you are 65, not before. Born after 1960, probably not at all.

    With many unable to ‘retire’ to a sunny EU country, they will come to Scotland, cheaper housing, better NHS, etc. Voting rights should be for those who have lived in Scotland for years. I met students last year out on campaign, all said Scotland should be shackled to ENG, all english students, I was shocked.

    After today, who knows what will happen, but we can be sure that the britnats will use it to put the kybosh on a 2nd indy ref, in which ever way they can spin it.

    The people of Catalonia are amazing, with what they had to withstand, the utterly atrocious violence from Spain. Just disgusting.

  354. Tinto Chiel says:

    @TheWasp !0.39: and I’m sure you’ve read “The Enemy Within” by Seumas Milne.

    The footage from Orgreave still makes me feel sick. Just like Barcelona today, actually.

    Good Old BBC, of course.

  355. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Petra @ 22:12,

    I’m not sure where your “facts” come from, since the ballot itself was secret. People say all kinds of stuff about what they did afterwards. Where knowledge is absent, fantasy rules. (And this is one of the more reasonable assumptions!)

    There are legitimate ongoing concerns about “white settlers”, I don’t deny it. I do worry though that this is being used as an excuse for losing instead of facing up to the real fact that we simply didn’t convince enough people last time that we were right. The vast majority of said nay-sayers being our very own native-born PSBs. There are plenty enough of them.

    If more people here had more of a backbone we wouldn’t be quibbling about a minority rUK fringe.

    Here’s some realities:

    + The voting arrangement is extremely unlikely to change for next time, no matter how much anyone complains about it online. I wish people would realise that. Instead of moaning on about it, we had better focus on doing something more productive with our time.

    + The silver lining is that virtually all the EU citizens resident here will vote “yes” next time, unless we are careless enough to lose them beforehand.

    + The “better spending our time” means working a bit harder to win over more people – mainly Scots – who voted “no” last time. There’s no substitute for =sigh= that hard graft.

    The Brexitastrophe is helping dislocate people from the Union and we need to use it not lose it. (As some switherers sadly seem intent on doing.)

    Like in Catalonia, it’s down to us, not anyone else. It always has been.

  356. Ottomanboi says:

    You believe what you like wearing those rose tinted spex. The reality is Holyrood is just a subordinate assembly with limited powers and no constitutional authority. Westminster has major reserve powers and calls the tune on constitutional matters. Cameron and the UK and Scottish governments did agree to the 2014 referendum as a one off. Sturgeon or whoever will struggle to get Westminster sanction for a second referendum as the current régime and the non SNP opposition are solidly against.
    I do not believe the current SNP government has the nerve to risk a constitutional face off by calling a referendum which it knows it would lose. However, it could at some time vote on such an initiative to test the waters and see how Westminster reacts.
    That’s about as far as it goes. Sadly, we are not Catalonia.
    Btw try and cut the abuse. You do not help your case.

  357. galamcennalath says:


    Someone who worked beside my late mother came in to work and swore she had just seen her son the previous evening on TV. He was supposed to be serving in the army in Germany. He was dressed in a police uniform confronting miners.

  358. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Alex Clark @ 22:36,

    The only temporary residents who may have got a vote, I believe, were students (who can be registered both home and away) and military personnel.

    (Anyone please correct me if I am wrong there.)

    I think it quite reasonable to exclude the likes of them if that’s at all possible, for exactly the reason you mention. But I’m not sure that amounts to so very many votes anyway.

    With this we really are scrabbling for the grains on the ground while ignoring the granary.

    Personally I believe only people who are ordinarily resident here and who have a Scottish tax code or are of voting age but too young to have one, should be eligible to vote.

    But no-one will be listening to me either! =laugh=

  359. Alex Clark says:


    “You do not help your case.”

    Love it, you do not help your case either in pretending to be a Scot. It should have been “You do not help OUR case”.

    Thick as shit most of you trolls, Ruth is waiting under the new bridge.

  360. ian murray says:

    I think Barca knew they had to change their uniform before they came out of the dressing room sporting their Catalonia strip.
    The two teams were too similar and as home team they had to change.I am sure the just wanted to show their support

  361. Gary45% says:

    As said before, the Establishment will show the scenes from Barcelona from now until the next Indy Ref, totally biased, one sided establishment propaganda to the gullible masses.
    Its a crying shame what was witnessed today, I thought the Spanish government were above this sort of citizen control, but hey, now nothing surprises me.

    01/10/2017 The Day Democracy Died
    Viva Catalunya

  362. geeo says:

    “you do not help YOUR cause”

    And bang goes the pretence of another unionist shill.

    Ottomanboi…fuck you, unionist pig.

  363. Big Phil says:

    My thoughts tonight are with the brave people of Catalonia,really disturbing images being shown,I wish Oor people had the balls that they have.
    Hands across the sea brothers and sisters ,hands across the sea.

  364. Old Pete says:

    New Indy ref in 2019, probably our only chance with May’s blessing or not. Will we stand up like the Catalonians for Independence. We start with a half million disadvantage due to white settlers from south of the border determined to keep us part of old England. After today’s events do we have enough brave hearts to win our Independence, I wonder? The longer we wait the less chance we will have. So Nicola now’s the time and now’s the hour , yes or no you decide.

  365. geeo says:

    Stinky pete still pushing the unionist agenda to bring indy date immediately…what a fucking tit.

    He has had it explained a dozen times why that is a mistake, yet keeps posting his drivel.

    It was shite the first time ya clown, still shite now.

  366. North chiel says:

    Agree with ” Petra @1012&Alex Clark@ 1036 ” , a circa five year
    residency rule for the Indyref2 vote should certainly be considered. The “postal vote ( where the opportunity for fraud is increased) , should be curtailed” and possibly restricted to people who are medically/ physically certified unable and unfit to attend .
    Also RJS@ 1050, ” instead of facing up to the real fact that we simply did not convince enough people last time that we were right” . Agreed Robert, however perhaps more significantly the Westminster controlled BBC/MSM certainly convinced ” enough people that we were wrong”.

  367. Big Phil says:

    Just saw another video on the rev’s twitter of some poor Catalonian being given cpr,whilst the spanish guardia battered someone over him.. pure bastards.
    Hope he survived.

  368. Alex Clark says:


    That’s just a sign of the desperation setting in. Feart really they are losing the plot.

    You won’t stop a determined people looking for democracy as Catalonia will surely show us when this disgrace eventually plays out.

  369. Old Pete says:

    Good to see Mr fruitcake back with the silver script, my way or no way. With people like you geeo it is hardly surprising we lost the first referendum. If you talk like scum then you must be scum.

  370. Lenny Hartley says:

    FFS don’t normally watch Msm news channels but somebody said Sky were better on today’s reporting, just tuned in, who are these people, what the press said, some female saying that only 2 million of electorate of 5 million voted therefore all those who didn’t vote would have been no voters! And therefore no mandate for Indy. Some bloke saying we gave Scotland a vote and Cameron is a hero in Catalonia.
    Switched off and never again 🙂

  371. Tinto Chiel says:

    More bollocks from the Go-Early-And-Lose-Brigade.

    Now why would we want to do that? It’s a bit like “Don’t buy the only nationalist paper whatever you do” or “Stop banging on about the sovereignty of the Scottish people.” I ask again: why would I want to do that?

    Although I am deeply sympathetic with the Catalans, we are in a different constitutional position.

    Apart from about a 30% Britnat core, the other Noes in Scotland would persuadable were it not for a 35-1 newspaper democratic deficit.

    Given that, the difficult bit is holding, holding until the real effects of Brexit hit selfish Middle Scotland in the gonads.

    Only then will they act out of “principle”, hem, hem.

    It’s not sexy “Fight them on the Barricades” stuff, but it’s where we are in Wee Fearty Scotland after 300 years of Unionist Pap’n’Shit.

  372. Old Pete says:

    Yes Lenny MSM suck, they are so scared we go again for Independence they will push and defend the Union anyway the can.

  373. heedtracker says:

    Looks like the torygraph roasters have had it with Mrs May, as beeb gimps call the mad old trout. It is mad out there in yoon land tonight,

    Telegraph News
    Theresa May was so bad on Marr, it felt cruel to watch

    To cap it all, today is her birthday CREDIT: REUTERS/MARY TURNER

    I’ve started to feel sorry for Theresa May. It’s like watching a dying antelope heave itself across the plain, forlornly dragging its wounded leg behind it.

    This morning, as the Tories began their conference in Manchester, the Prime Minister went on BBC One to be interviewed by Andrew Marr. It did not go well. Marr began by asking if she would apologise to her party for the election result. “I’ll answer that question in a moment, Andrew,” promised Mrs May. She didn’t, so he asked her again. “We’ve got more MPs in Scotland,” she offered lamely.

    Even she didn’t seem to find her answer convincing. She stumbled on. “We didn’t get our message across sufficiently… What is important is that we’ve listened to what people said… We’ll be looking at the issues people are raising… Yes, I am going to answer your question…”

  374. t42 says:

    And the masses watch celebrity ballroom dancing and catalonia becomes an afterthought.
    One of these countries doesnt control its broadcasting: kurdistan, catalonia, scotland.

  375. Grouse Beater says:

    Catalonia – then and now:

    Just published – I’m still correcting it

  376. Molly says:

    Alex Clark , Nick Eardley has a wee video clip on Twitter ( on Pete Wishart s Twitter ) showing rather than Ruthie hiding under a bridge, her clasping hands with Big Treeza in celebration of saving the Union .

    Perhaps the old , keep your friends close but your enemies closer?

    Spotted in London with Amber Rudd, second in a poll to B Johnson to take over, denying she’d be moving there, low profile the last few weeks, open discussion about T Mays tenure, Ruthies big moment can’t be far away, after all the Tories are desperate.

  377. Alex Clark says:

    @Old Pete

    geoo had you nailed the first time, you posts since then have only served to confirm that geoo was right. Hahahaha.

  378. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Old Pete at 11.24

    Not all of them,Pete and they can get quite offended if you think that of them. Several of our best supporters at the Forward shop and in Cowal are English though they mostly have been here for some time. It is our job to persuade the others as it certainly is the case that most of the newcomers coming in now are Naws and that is a significant problem. But here is a point. They are mostly old, retired persons. Most of our own old retired persons voted NO as well. I wonder what the percentage difference might have been between these two groups.

  379. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    North chiel @ 23:37,

    Aye, the media thing is our real stumbling block. We’re fighting with one hand tied behind our back because of that alone. (A significant disadvantage that Catalonia doesn’t have to endure.) Probably accounts for a fair few PSB’s, despite my own grumbling about them upthread.

    I don’t think it’s coincidence that the indy movement really took off after the internet revolution, since it’s only then that we – and especially the younger folk – can hope to rid ourselves of the dead hand of establishment media orthodoxy.

    (Which has its disadvantages as well as advantages, as we can readily observe on here at times! =grin=)

    Getting through to the remainder somehow, though, is the real challenge. Brexit is certainly one such unique possibility.

  380. yesindyref2 says:

    As Dave McEwan Hill says, “Most of our own old retired persons voted NO as well.”

    From the 19th Sep Ashcroft poll,65+ was 27% YES, 73% NO, so it really don’t matter if the 65+ is English, Scottish or one of Hammond’s Martians, 73% of them voted NO.

  381. Hamish100 says:

    Losing the plot a wee bit with your profanity. What’s the point your trying to make?

    Actually don’t bother.

  382. Petra says:

    BBC News seems to have bucked itself up by showing footage of the folks being thrown downstairs / kicked, confrontation with firemen and Catalonian policemen upset / crying. BBC Scotland still showing a singular piece of footage of some Catalonians forcing the thugs to retreat. That was followed by showing Ruth Davidson at the Tory Conference clasping hand with May, hands over heads bellowing in unison “we saved the Union.” I enjoyed that part because it reminds everyone that Davidson is A Tory.

    There’s also a number of excellent articles in the Sunday Herald today such as on fracking, Commonwealth Games charity facing questions over £118,000 black hole (and what about the rest?), Scottish gin being the world leader now and amounts of money wasted on Equal Pay Cases from 2007 to 2017. No mention of the two Scottish cases that went to the House of Lords in the late 90’s. I’m seriously thinking of contacting a number of people in relation to this such as I would like to find out more about the part that was played by the Union and Frank McAveety, Pat Lally and Bob Gould who were leaders of GCC at that time.

    The Herald has also published some interesting comments from Davidson … “RD believes that Britain is too London-centric and that hoarding too many powers in London could cause cracks in the Union.” Where on earth did she get that idea from? “We live in a country where the property values of London’s top ten boroughs are worth more than all of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales combined.” “Where you can sell up a three-bed semi in Illford and buy half of Sutherland.” “More UK institutions and public servants must be moved away from London to other cities as the capital has enough Civil Servants to fill Wembley Stadium.” She’s aware of this but still supports the horrendous Tory party.

    Murdo Fraser is saying that the party’s 13 Scottish MP’s should distance themselves from its UK Leadership. Just wonder if some of this type of rhetoric is a sign of them seeing Indyref2 writing on the wall?


    @Artyhetty at 10:38pm ….”Scottish Government mitigating.”

    It’s actually reaching farcical levels now. I was reading about an English woman who emigrated to America, married an American and became chronically ill. The medical bills were too hefty to meet in the US so she and her husband ….. wait for it ….. returned to Scotland. The story related to her husband being threatened with being booted out by the Home Office but pointing out that if he had to leave his wife would require practically round the clock care. I feel heart sorry for the woman but Scotland is heading towards becoming the UK’s old folks home / special care unit.


    @ Robert at 10:50pm …. “I’m not sure where your ‘facts’ come from.”

    They come from research findings Robert and from reading articles by people like Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp. The research ‘findings’ also correlate with my personal ‘findings’ in travelling all over Scotland. And by the way over 50% of Scots born voters supported Independence.

    I’m sure that most people on here are well aware of the facts and won’t use “white-settlers” as an excuse, the only reason, for losing at all. Scaremongering played a massive part, propaganda as we know and a lack of credibility relating to currency and so on. To my mind we have to consider all factors and ‘shore’ them up before round two.

    “A minority rUK fringe.” Not exactly a minority Robert. RUK relocators account for between 15-18% of our population now.

    “Temporary residents who may have got a vote.” Students, seasonal migrants, holiday home owners and individuals who rented accommodation in Scotland for a couple of months, registered to vote by the 31st August 2014 and headed home after the Referendum. Estate agents reported later that they were totally inundated with requests for short-term lets.

    “The EUNat vote” I’m sure will be a silver lining if we call for a Referendum whilst they’re still allowed to vote.

    “The voting arrangement is unlikely to change.” Well we don’t know that for sure. It might happen but meanwhile some of the ‘moaners’ on here are still working their butts off in the real world being “productive” and doing “the hard graft.” Using brains in combination with brawn is often a winning combination.

  383. William Wallace says:

    Embryo stages o a bender here so forgive me for being brash.

    Ah this pish aboot he’s a unionist plant and he is 77th brigade and ah that shite. Rock says, C&A says, Heedtracker says, Indyref2 says and Alex Clark says that he said that she said that they said etc. Yiz gonnae pit an end to it ffs? 😉

    It’s time to come together and stop this nonsense. Remember what was said a couple o weeks ago aboot “tying wir ropes the gither”?

    One thing that struck me today is the absolute solidarity of the people of Catalunya. The way they stuck together through adversity and the way they responded to intervention by Franco’s boot boys. It was a lesson to us and to the wider world.

    Let’s learn from that and think about how we shape our response during the next referendum campaign. Let’s take things forward tomorrow based on what we have learned today. We will not achieve our aims by falling oot wi each other and trying to score points in ongoing petty feuds.

    We might ah hae different views aboot an independent Scotland. We might ah hae different views on how tae get there. Can we ah agree that the only thing that matters is that we reach our destination – together.

    Tie yir ropes the gither.

    Rant over.

  384. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ottomanboi says: 1 October, 2017 at 5:44 pm:

    ” … Should we see ourselves in a similar situation to the Catalans I trust we should not be found wanting.”

    You do talk a right load of rubbish, Ottomanboi.

    In the first place the Spain/Catalonia and the Westminster/Scotland situations are not comparable – guess who says that, Ottomanboi?

    The Spanish Government is the answer but I really should not answer my own question. Furthermore, the Spanish Government have never threatened to veto a Scottish entry to the EU if, or when, Scotland were to be out of the EU.

    The Westminster Propaganda Machine put that fake news into the public domain in the most idiotic manner and like sheep following the leader the fake news story has been repeated ever since.

    The person who they quoted as the originator of that claim was none other than José Manuel Durão Barroso, who is a Portuguese politician. He is the current, non-executive, chairman at Goldman Sachs International who was previously the 11th President of the European Commission (from 2004 to 2014) and the 115th Prime Minister of Portugal (2002–2004).

    In any case the Spanish set-up is of already semi-autonomous regional governments. In fact Catalonia has a great deal more autonomy than has Holyrood.

    The two set-ups, and hence the two situation, are not comparable.

  385. Dr Jim says:

    I’m going to have to bar myself from my computer or break it because if I have to listen to any more of these patronising English media “journalists” and presenters talking Pish about people wanting to run their own countries or economies I’ll say something or do something I probably wont regret

    The arrogance of the English media is staggeringly and monumentally offensive in every respect, (how did I get the word respect in there?) because it’s something they don’t seem to have any knowledge of and as far as Scotland and it’s people it would seem Catalonia has only taught them that Scotland definitely shouldn’t get another referendum and we don’t have any support for one just like the last time and the SNP are an irrelevance anyway so let’s just in their words Poo Poo anything Scotland has to say, ignore them and move on

    Well that’s it I’m away to sharpen stuff now, mostly my tongue probably but God help anybody who opens their mouth to me about Scottish Independence who Isn’t for it from now on because I may just turn in to the kind of obnoxious Scot they say I am and let’s just see who’s irrelevant then and just who’s country they think they’re in when they try to shove their opinions anywhere near my direction

    Words that end in OFF, a short conversation from now on

  386. Alex Clark says:

    @William Wallace

    Ouch! but fair doos as long as you pay attention though.

  387. William Wallace says:

    Ehm no attacking onybody Alex, least of all you. Eh’m jist seek o ah this divisive shite.

    Ropes the gither eh! 🙂

  388. galamcennalath says:

    From the Guardian …

    90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence, according to preliminary results released by the region’s government. The region has 5.3 million voters. Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police.

    Assuming the “lost” votes had also split 90% YES, then over 2.7 million may have voted YES.

    That would represent around 52% of the electorate voting YES.

  389. William Wallace says:

    As an aside Alex. What aboot the convention on the 4th? Could a night oot no be organised aroond that? Mebbe ower the water somewhere? Jist a thought like. 🙂

  390. Shinty says:

    William Wallace -good rant.

    Good example: if indyref2 was called next week/month/year -will you all be ready? What are we doing now?

    I have just extended my mortgage and replenished my toner cartridges(lol) so my printer is good to go. I print off stuff and put it on my shop notice board (not huge traffic but every little helps right?) No use at canvassing, leaflets through the doors (waste of time/money IMHO)

    So if anyone wants any printing of simple stuff A4 card or paper
    give me nod – not a professional, just a bod with a half decent printer. (I’m talking in terms of 30 – 50 copies for folk who don’t have printers or the means) no charge, but you need to uplift. Contact me on OFF TOPIC ONLY.

  391. yesindyref2 says:

    So, in a comment on the independent:

    2 260 000 votes cast and collected by Catalan authorities.
    770 000 votes seized by Spanish authorities.
    3 030 000 votes cast out of 5 300 000 electorate.
    Estimated turnout including postal ballots 58%.
    90% cast for YES = 52.2% of Catalan electorate cast ballots in favour of independence in a legitimate attended and conducted poll in front of international observers.

    and if it’s a YES, it says in the article, Catalonia’s President Carles Puigdemont has already said he will unilaterally declare independence from Spain within 48 hours if the region votes Yes.

    So what will Rajoy do? Send the Guardia Civil in – or keep them there? Or resign?

    And what will internationally, countries have to say about it? The EU, The UN?

    My guess as to what should happen is that the EU or UN should now insist on another referendum taking place, internationally supervised probably with a peacekeeping force in place. I forget where, but I think something like that happened somewhere.

    And for that result to then stand.

    Otherwise it seems to me the current YES vote and UDI do stand for Catalonia, and it will be interesting to see which is the first country to have the guts to recognise them.

    Well done to the Catalonians for avoiding a bloodbath with extreme provocation, it seems nobody died so far, and no live bullets.

  392. geeo says:

    90% YES.

    Catalan gov now saying they WILL go UDI.

    Interesting times ahead now in Spain.

    As for Scotref…WM dare not refuse a section 30, it is the ONLY way they can try control the narrative in any form.

    Brexit shambles and Catalonia resolute in face of violent subversion of democracy by Madrid.
    WM will be in a state of panic tonight.

    Now we wait and watch how Catalan UDI is handled by EU/UN etc.

    The violent subversion attempt by Spain might just mean the UDI to come is recognised, especially with EU under pressure to Sanction Spain for what went on today.

    Superb stuff.

  393. Meg merrilees says:

    Reading tonight that 90% of Leave voters don’t care if the Union breaks up as result of Brexit and possibly even more staggeringly, 81% don’t care if the Peace Process is disrupted so long as they get Brexit.
    So, 81% of Brexiteers don’t care if guns and bombs return to N.Ireland ‘cos it’s really all about them taking back control. Yet if we try to explain that Scotland wants to ‘take bad control’ that’s Baad and real not a good idea. Presumably they don’t care what happens to the border in N.Ireland either.

    Maybe we should give England a vote on whether they want us to end the Union- we might get a higher vote than asking all these elderly people living in Scotland just now. ( just joking).

    Can’t imagine them getting very upset about events in Catalonia today as all they care about is ‘numero uno’, themselves.

    Oh, and (t)Ruthless Davidson has said she’s not ready for Westminster – YET!
    How’s that for arrogance. She’s not ruling out being Prime Minister after Theresa May.
    One assumes that actually being elected is just a formality these days as a Tory wannabee.

    Brava Catalunya, what courage, DARE TO DREAM.

    Best bit? Seeing the Catalan Police Force protect their own people against the fascist thugs on the Spanish side and hearing the Catalan people applaud them after wards for their action.

  394. William Wallace says:

    @ Shinty

    Agreed on the through the door marketing. It disnae work.

    Collect a few donations fae the rest o us to help pay fir mair toner cartridges so that them that hivnae got much can receive printed material through the post fir free.

    Ehm aywiz happy to stick a few bob in the pot fir the cause and eh am certainly not alone.

    Withoot adopting Tescos slogan, you are right – every little helps.

    Let’s get organising.

  395. yesindyref2 says:

    There is at least one thing that can not be denied.

    A referendum did take place in Catalonia.

    And it seems that more than half the voting population turned out to vote, even if many were prevented from doing so by the GC. That alone makes it a valid expression of self-determination.

  396. Street Andrew says:

    To those (Brit Nats?) who think this outrageous government behaviour is protecting the ‘Law’ and the authority of the courts I can only say that if the law does not support and defend democracy the law is corrupt and deserves our contempt.

    As do those who support it or condone it. (Not looking at anyone in particular, Ms Davidson)

    The default currency of the free market is violence.

    Not wanted in Scotland.

  397. William Wallace says:

    @ Meg

    Best bit? Seeing the Catalan Police Force protect their own people against the fascist thugs on the Spanish side and hearing the Catalan people applaud them after wards for their action.

    As heart warming and poignant as that wiz, what was really amazing wiz the bit whar they hid the ballot boxes and pretended they were playing dominoes 🙂 That for me summed up the ingenuity of the people of Catalunya.

  398. geeo says:

    @hamish 100.

    No surprise it is you defending stinky pete the desperate unionist goon.

    Go fuck yourself.

    @william wallace, while i get your notion of unity, the goons you mention are NOT pro indy, and never will be, so deserve our contempt.

    Interesting fun fact…William Wallace (the real one) died on the 23rd August, I was born on the 23rd August. I was destined to be an indy advocate !!

  399. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Petra @ 00:46,

    Maybe there’s not enough space to cover such matters in sufficient detail here, but your response re “how people voted” still looks fairly anecdotal to me. Such “evidence” can untimately only be based on partial surveys (=polls!), and we all know how reliable participants of those can be. (That’s why the actual ballot is secret in the first place.)

    More worrying, your blanket statement about 2nd-home owners and even more so, people on holiday (?) just doesn’t ring true. Here is the official position re 2nd-home owners:

    Whether or not you reside at an address is not defined in law. Residence is understood to mean a “considerable degree of permanence”.

    This means a person with two homes who spends the same amount of time in each can legally register at both addresses.

    It is unlikely that merely owning a second home that is used for recreation would be enough to qualify you to register to vote in that area. Simply paying council tax on a second home would also not be enough.

    So you would have to have a substantial degree of presence to be able to register, and certainly not just because of the occasional fly-by visit.

    Interestingly, Cornwall Council had a real problem with a substantial concentration of incomer voters in their area, and back in 2011 or so it instituted a thorough review of the degree of residence of 2nd-home owners, and excised all of them who weren’t present for at least 6 months. If a similar degree of vigilance in managing the register(s) here is what you had in mind, I don’t see any impediment to that, either practical or principled.

    Students from rUK were a separate issue, but I think we are all on the same page about that.

    I think you missed my point re “fringe”. There may be local concentrations, but the overall number over the whole of Scotland wouldn’t matter if only a relatively small proportion of native-born Scots were willing to take their sovereignty seriously. Like every other country which ran an independence plebiscite.

    That’s where the real anomaly lies, and that’s the anomaly that really must be addressed if we are to win.

  400. William Wallace says:

    @ Geeo

    Let’s find oot. Get abody the gither and let’s see wha is wha. Presenting division on here serves naebody but the Yoons. Ken what eh mean?

    Ropes the gither man. Wha ever disnae show can be disregarded and ignored. Focusing on division on platforms such as wings stop us being cohesive as a movement eh!

    The only cnuts that benefit fae that are our detractors.

  401. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Graham says: 1 October, 2017 at 6:23 pm:

    “With all due respect- Robert what exactly is the point of This EU ? “

    If you do not know – what are you arguing about? I suggest you read this :-

    “If a major event occurred anywhere in the world right now, the EU would offer no opinion, no reaction, maybe sometime in the future we would have a reaction.”

    First of all the event is not, “Anywhere in the World”, it is in an integral member state of the EU”. The EU are very diplomatic in making statements about their member states. Mainly because each member state has a veto over any particular EU parliamentary vote. It is thus not simply run as a democracy but by consensus.

    Just as the United Kingdom is undemocratic, (and it always has been), due to the large differences in population between the only two Kingdoms that are the actual legal partners in the Union.

    Furthermore, this lack of democracy has increased as Westminster has always regarded Westminster as the de facto parliament of England even although no such parliament has existed since the last day of April 1707.

    The problem became very much worse when Westminster split up the United Kingdom as four countries but retained Westminster as the De facto, unelected as such, Parliament of the country of England. In effect that means Westminster is the Parliament of England and is thus devolving English, (rather than United Kingdom), powers to the other three countries and thus relegating the Kingdom of Scotland to the same status as just another of the actual Dominions of the Kingdom of England that came into the bipartite United Kingdom on the coat-tails of the Kingdom of England.

    So there’s the rub – there is no comparisons that can be made between the way the EU, Spain and the United Kingdom are being run politically.

    So first of all the EU has 28 member states and they must all agree on any matter. How then can the rest of the EU take action against any particular member state when the state they want to take action against can veto the action?

    If there can be a comparison between the Spanish and the UK situations it is that in the case of the UK the member state has requested to leave the Union but note that the EU Parliament had to insist the UK parliament lodged a formal request to leave before the EU would even consider the matter.

    None of which changes the fact that there will have been much behind the scenes work going on. They will telegraph information but not directly. Just as they did send a message to Scotland when Alyn Smith made his impassioned speech in the chamber and got a standing ovation.

    They were telling Scotland they were on our side. Another innovative thing happened but the Westminster Propaganda machine suppressed it effectively. On several occasions, both in Brussels and in Edinburgh, EU and EC officials and even member state diplomatic people have met with the Scottish First Minister. Not so long ago that would have been unheard of.

    They would have only dealt with the official member state officials. If you are not aware of how these things work you would not know their significance of them meeting with devolved UK parliamentarians.

    In any case the fall back way is the one I’ve mentioned several times – as for Human Rights there are two quite different courts.

    The European Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Justice. They are quite different organs and quite different organisations and often confused one with the other.

    Actually there are three European courts. Two of which interpret European Union Law and two that deal with Human rights and the two that deal with Human rights are the CFR and ECHR: See this link:-

    The ECHR, (European Court of Human Rights), is under the Council of Europe that has all the EU member states among its larger membership and the EU has the ECJ, The European Court of Justice.

    I’d venture the guess that the ECJ will sing dumb on the Spanish case and leave the matter to the much larger ECHR.

    So the idea that the EU and its ECJ will take up the case against an EU Member state is remote but the Council for Europe ECHR most likely will take the matter up.

  402. yesindyref2 says:

    Correction, there appears to have been one death. RIP if true.

  403. Shinty says:

    Meg merrilees – Oh, and (t)Ruthless Davidson has said she’s not ready for Westminster – YET!
    How’s that for arrogance. She’s not ruling out being Prime Minister after Theresa May.

    Listened to Salmond on LBC today – someone actually thought RD should replace May as PM.

  404. t42 says:

    And not a word from our President Junkers. Not an ounce of humanity as innocent pensioners get their heads smashed in by paramilitaries. “I dont want to see european countries fragmenting” said the unelected, corporate-controlled, elite millionaire from the Junkers family dynasty.

  405. Andrew says:

    I’ve had my doubts about the EU before but this situation and their muted, minimal response to it has sealed it for me. Independence with EFTA membership only.

  406. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    t42 @ 02:25,

    That’s a fair old self-contradiction there. He seems to have said quite a lot, quoth you, for “not a word”. (?)

    He is head of the EU Commission, ie. the chief EU civil servant. Civil servants are not supposed to have any official opinion. By definition.


    Can we stick to comments that have at least some resemblence to reality, please…

  407. yesindyref2 says:

    About the EU, what Robert Peffers says.

    But apart from that, the EU respects its member states and, despite what the Brexiteers will tell us, also respects the member states sovereignty. Ther are two councils, the European Council which is the heads of state and sets general policy, and the Council which would usually be attended by the appropriate minister, fishing, agriculture, whatever. The second would have little if any scope to interfer in Spain, and the first wouldn’t really tackle it either, or incredibly reluctantly and slowly – and rightly so. But nothing stops individual heads of state picking up the phone and talking to another head of state.

    On the other hand, the European Parliament has its own autonomy, and it can debate such matters. In fact it appears Alyn Smith will be raising this in the EU Parliament this week. They can take and pass motions, which would cause attention.

    Basically in the first place, it’s soft power that is used. After that, there are procedures, such as the mentioned Article 7, which COULD be invoked by the European Council with the agreement of the EU Parliament. That really would be a last resort.

    However, even the possibility of such happening might knock some heads together – see soft power above! My guess is that the phones will be busy tomorrow today.

  408. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Andrew @ 02:33,

    Oh blue blistering barnacles, the anti-EU condemnations are coming in thick and fast now on the late shift.

    What “EU army” is going to intervene, pray? What “EU police force” of the “Federal Superstate” is just waiting at the border to spring into action to sort this awful complex situation out in the jiffy that the shallow-minded insist upon? FGS.

    Oh yes, little Liechtenstein, backed up by doughty little Switzerland, is now going to spring to the aid of the Catalans toute-de-suite. That will sort things out.

    I mean, really.

    Why don’t you just wait to see what actually transpires for real over the next few days before dropping to inane instantaneous pre-judgements? Then just maybe we’ll have the perspective to be able to see.

  409. yesindyref2 says:

    What RJS said, Junckers is President of the Commission, who enact the policies of the EU. If the European Council wanted to invoke an Article 7, for instance, Junckers and the EC would give advice as to how this would work.

    Tusk is President of the European Council, the heads of state council of the EU. He can give opinions at times, and can work behind the scenes to get some accord between heads of state, but on something like this would be very foolish to talk out without consultation with the EU28 heads of state.

    The EU is the sum of its members, not one single person or entity.

  410. yesindyref2 says:

    Indeed, it will take time, and Catalonia will have to be very patient. Mind you, when it comes to patience they really proved themselves yesterday.

  411. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:52,

    Everyone prefers a quiet life, and there are enough old troubles around without looking for new ones, so in truth no-one in the corridors of power across Europe wanted this one. But it was going to come along, somewhere, sometime, and now it’s happened and can’t be ignored.

    What happens now is anyone’s guess, but I imagine that the Catalan leadership will be relying on the EU to provide some kind of diplomatic mediation for this.

    Especially if (excitingly) it’s post-UDI. =grin=

    BTW, for anyone who hasn’t yet seen Liz Castro’s excellent review of the situation in the Phantom Power video linked by the previous thread, I heartily recommend it.

    It’s clear, for example, that the Catalans see themselves very much as belonging to the EU, so why would we want to disagree…?

  412. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, Catalonia is in that respect in a similar position to Scotland now, or after Indy Ref 2, looking for help from the EU. Does the EU want us, and can it have us? How will it treat a UDI’d Catalonia? Testing times for the EU, and does it have the maturity of democracy to get through it? Best thing would be, of course, for Spain to step backwards, and recognise its mistakes, and start talking.

  413. yesindyref2 says:

    Meanwhile the Herald which seems to have forgotten the existence of Catalonia, reports that today, of all days to do it, Mundell is calling yet again for Sturgeon to take Indy Ref 2 off the table.

    What an insensitive ignorant klutz.

  414. Macart says:

    Wonder how many UK titles today will carry a front page like this?

  415. Ghillie says:

    Brave Catalonia. Well done =)

    What a day.

    Followed unfolding events on Twitter.

    Am so deeply moved by the courage and determination of the People of Catalonia in the face of ferocious violence from Spain’s storm troopers.

    So many people were hurt, and badly. The official figures for those injured will not come near the true numbers of people who were injured as they were attacked. I saw pain being inflicted again and again. Most would just deal with the cuts and bruises at home. Some must have been pretty severely wounded.

    And yet the Catalans remained peaceful. You did sing loud and strong 🙂

    The Catalonian Mossa Police and the Catalan Fire Brigade standing between their citizens and the Gardia Civil was awesome. True heroes.

    I am so proud of our own folk who went over to lend support too. Joanna Cherry, Tricia Marwick, George Kerevan. I hope we will hear from all who were there.

    I feel so drained just watching from a distance. Catalonia. You did so so well 🙂


  416. Macart says:

    Well, they were slow off the mark, but just seen a review of the dailies and creditably a goodly number highlight yesterdays appalling scenes in Catalonia.

    Today, the Spanish government are finding out that with social media, livestream and the internet, there is no such thing as hiding the facts.

  417. bjsalba says:

    To have the EU do something right now, the whole structure would have to be changed, to make it more like the USA where one man is at the top and can act as he sees fit without any input from others. The rule of law only comes in AFTER the action.

    Given the actions of Donald Trump, is this what people want?

  418. Macart says:


    Philip Hammond on SKY news admits there is economic and market discrepancy between north and south shock! Investment of a further £400m for northern powerhouse infrastructure as an ongoing project to create a ‘single market’ between towns and cities of the north to bring it more on par with the economy of the south.


    Wait now. Weren’t Scots just recently told the whole UK formed a single UK market? In fact, us vile seps were warned against endangering the UK ‘single market’.

    It appears Mr Hammond isn’t singing from the same hymn sheet as some of his political peers.

    Who knew?

    So, for the removal of any doubt. There is no UK single market, mkay? We’re all clear on that now.

  419. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ bjsalba

    The very idea that dodgy orange is in charge of the world’s largest and most profitable military business complex is risible, with or without the input from others. The biggest decision he’ll make on most days will be what tie to wear.

    I remember an old Saturday Night Live sketch from the ’80s that brilliantly showed how absurd the idea of Reagan being the decision maker was. Found it.

  420. John Gerard says:

    If the SNP were to use taxpayers money to hold an illegal referendum, how do you this a British Government would react? give a clue, Northern Ireland the 35 years of troubles, rubber bullets, plastic bullets, the murder of civilians by Crown Forces, the most infamous Bloody Sunday 1972 14 unarmed protesters shot dead.It is convenient to forget what has happened in your own doorstep.

  421. Sinky says:

    Yoons frothing at the mouth over Lesley Riddoch’s article on the BBC / Catalonia in Hootsman.

    Another great front page and coverage in The National

    Shame on UK government and Mundell on GMS mealy mouth lack of condemnation of Spain’s right wing government.

  422. Macart says:

    Worth noting before our ever popular media make a meme of it. Any referendum in Scotland isn’t a matter of legal and illegal. It’s a matter of mutually legally binding and advisory.

    The S30 binds the result instantly for both parties (unless there is a material change in circumstance). The advisory, much like the EU referendum, is subject to later ratification and legal challenges on varied points. One is a straight line, the other a circuitous path. Both politically valid.

    Ms May and Mr Cameron should be more than aware of the political weight and precedent carried by an advisory referendum (cough). Scotland is a nation in partnership through an international treaty. A treaty subject to regular review by the parties involved, just like any partnership.

    Don’t let them away with any legal/illegal bull. m’kay?

  423. mike d says:

    Macart 6.01am .Nothing on the front pages of the rabid right wing brit press.

  424. TheWasp says:

    Beer tracker @ 10.46

    The Scottish soldiers who were in the country were confined to barracks, but the rest had already been posted to Russia to fight on the side of the White Army. When I was at primary school Jimmy our old neighbour told me all about this time. He lied about his age, enlisted at fourteen, went right through the whole war, was gassed three times, recuperating at Gleneagles. After the armistice, when tensions were known to be high at home, and the troops were eager to get back, they were immediately deployed to Russia by ship. He even had a Russian Campaign medal in his wee glass case.

  425. Robert Louis says:

    Well judging by the likes of the BBC and the UK (England) mainstream media, at most their were a few clashes or scuffles yesterday in Catalonia. Censorship writ large. Anybody who cannot see how the UK media is used to deceive the people, needs to take a look at the facts.

    As for Catalonia, I wish them well asserting their independence, which their people have now voted for. I look forward to visiting the independent republic of Catalonia, and Fascist Mariano Rajoy and his Guardia Civil thugs being indicted on charges of wanton cruelty, brutality, sexual assault, and denying fundamental human rights through force.

    The ONLY newspaper providing proper coverage of Catalonia is The National.

  426. mike d says:

    Go Catalonia,lets hear a declaration of UDI.

  427. Ottomanboi says:

    The bravery and determination of the independentists in Catalonia is exemplary. Blood has been spilt, there is no going back. The independentist leaders must now act quickly and decisively. They need nerves of steel in the face of a likely tsunami of condemnation, of their actions not those of the Spanish state, from the EU ‘establishment’, business and certain ‘world powers’.
    Watch and learn and wish Catalunya lliure well.

  428. One_Scot says:

    For what it is worth, and I know it’s not worth much, but I would just like to say how moved I was yesterday by the courage and bravery of the people of Catalonia who voted. It must have been horrific for the people who were caught up in the violence caused by the Spanish riot police.

    Catalonia’s future children will look back on yesterday and be very proud of those who went out to vote. They have my utmost respect.

  429. John H. says:

    On Sky Preview at 10.30pm I heard the presenter refer to the “riots” in Catalonia. I saw no riots. I did see riot police brutally attacking innocent, unarmed people. A bit careless with your facts there Sky.

  430. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    t42 at 2.25

    He has already said the EU will respect the result of the referendum. Amazing how some anti EU elements seem to think this debacle is somehow the fault of the EU.
    The UK government has made supportive noises about the Spanish state behaviour but I assume this is OK to these people.

  431. Les Wilson says:

    I guess this could be the Swan song for Spain as we know it.
    People all around the world will be reacting to this brutality, something Spain will pay dearly for.
    Catalonia will proclaim UDI, and whether they were originally right or wrong, they are right with certainty now.

    Who would want to be part of a state that treats a peaceful people from voting. The fear that I have is mass bloodshed could follow UDI, although I would hope not.

    The UK media did not show either the many thousand Basques on the street in support of Catalonia, they also will now be reminded of how cruel old Colonial states can be,so it may also reignite the Basque claim for Independence too, and they have form. A real can of worms for Spain and Europe.

    Rajoy will regret the scenes of yesterday, as will the whole of Spain. There is no mending this, videos are all over which show what really happened the state will deny, but look foolish as the evidence is out, unlike days past.

    Go Catalonia, they are brave and deserving, of their Independence.

  432. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    O/T It appears the Scottish Branch of Her Majesties Conservative & Unionist Party are giving similar fantasy briefings to Head Office as the BritNat Labour in Scotland are want to:

    Is this just for the Party Political Bubble or do the electorate in rUK actually believe this pish??

  433. winifred mccartney says:

    Totally awed by the bravery of the Catalonian people – you are to be greatly admired and praised. And to the Catalan police who tried to protect their own people – you showed us what the police should look like -RESPECT. Catalanonians you kept the peace while being beaten, dragged and hurt by what looked to me like an invasion of aliens.

    Everyone of these black clothed, disguised persons should be ashamed of themselves for what they did to unarmed peaceful citizens. I am not surprised they were covered from head to toe but they will still have to look at themselves in the mirror and remember the fear and suffering they engendered. It will not be a pretty sight. I am sure they will suffer psychologically when they realise what they have done.

  434. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Apologies for direct link to Herald article in my post at 09:20am about BritNat fantasy briefings.

    Here’s the archived one:

  435. Breeks says:

    I would have more faith in the EU. Give it time.

    Are you serious to suggest Germany, France, Belgium, and Italy need any warnings about the dangers of Fascism? Spain however clearly does.

    But for the EU to be an effective intermediary in the process which now follows, and indeed it must, it requires to have the confidence of both the Catalans and the Spanish government, but behind the public veneer, I would be confident that Spain will be coming under extraordinarily pressure to reel its neck in and stop discrediting itself and the whole of the European collective with its fascist police brutality and suppression of democracy.

    And if you’re still not persuaded, let me quote Winston Churchill, “the only thing worse than fighting a war with allies, is fighting a war without them”. Tweak that narrative a little; if you’re dissatisfied with the EU’s reaction to the situation in Catalonia, precisely how would the situation be improved if the EU didn’t exist?

    Europe is a massive and at times glacial bureaucracy, which has to check with 28 sovereign governments before it “shoots from the hip”, but we should be confident of finding very few apologists or sympathisers for Fascism inside the EU. Sadly, I wouldn’t say the same about the UK.

    We forget too, many of us are actually older than the EU itself. The EU is facing its first Brexit, and as far as I can recall, the unfolding situation in Spain lacks precedent too. It is a measure of the EU’s overwhelming success that we all expect so much to come from it. Keep the faith and give it time. Above all, STAY ON BOARD!

  436. jfngw says:

    Reading all the great ‘socialists’ of Labour queueing up to condemn Catalonians revels their real fear. If Catalonia becomes independent and a success and even admitted into the EU it exposes more of their lies. They don’t care about Catalonia or Spain except for the damage it may do to them and the union.

    Labour a party of charlatans led by paper tiger socialist.

  437. Ottomanboi says:

    Those 12 tories…representing Scotland, can you recall their names Theresa?
    Perhaps they’ve gone away too.
    Ruth is not quite the tartan star she expected to be.

  438. galamcennalath says:

    jfngw says:

    They don’t care about Catalonia or Spain except for the damage it may do to them and the union.

    I think that is true tight across Yoondom. They are terrified that Catalonia works out well and sets a precedent.

    If it does, then IndyRef2 will be fought from a much more secure and clear platform.

    Conversely, I’m sure it would please Yoonery for Catalonia to not end well.

    No gutter is too deep, no sewer too foul.

  439. Dorothy Devine says:

    Jings ! It’s all Russia’s fault again!

    Having watched the videos I wonder who in their right minds thought that this crushing brutality was a great idea?

    Did they think it would foment anything but hatred , resentment and animosity? Destroy determination?

    Catalonia , may you succeed beyond your wildest dreams and may the Balearics follow you.

  440. heedtracker says:

    Perhaps they’ve gone away too.
    Ruth is not quite the tartan star she expected to be.

    But with relentless BBC Scotland vote tory propaganda like this, its not hard to understand why planet toryboy wants Colonel Ruth for their UKOK PM.

    How to report SNP winning the 2017 snap GE, if you’re a wannabe bbc attack propaganda gimp.

  441. jfngw says:

    I singled out Labour as it is they that claim to be great socialists, I would expect Tories/LibDems & UKIP to go down the authoritarian route.

    I agree they would accept any violation of Catalonia as long as it suites their agenda. The ruling elite haven’t really changed over the centuries, now they just have better technology to achieve their aims.

  442. Ann says:

    Just picked up my National from the shop. All I can say is ‘SHAME ON OUR PRINTED MEDIA’

    Apart from a small header in the DR, the National is the only daily to have the guys who are not afraid to headline the disgraceful scenes that unfolded in Catalonia yesterday.

    They seem to think that Ruthie, Harry, X-Factor are more worthy headlines.

    Something really stinks in the 21st Century.

  443. katsoft says:

    Injured Catalans, 800+
    Injured garda civile 12
    EBC might report
    12 garda injured, suffering paper cuts as protesters viciously attacked them with their voting slips.

  444. Chick McGregor says:

    The big negative effect for the Madrid fascists is that with this action, they now come within the purview of both the ECHR and the ECJ under infringement of Freedom of Expression Law.

    If they had simply allowed the vote but then ignored it, those judicial bodies would have been unable to do anything.

    But now they must act because Madrid has violated the treaties which underpin the laws on Freedom of Expression and the treaties on which they are based and to which Spain is a signatory.

    I hope Europe goes at least as far as it can under standing procedures which would be fines for Spain and suspension of voting rights within the EU legislature.

    There is little doubt that their actions will also bring the Special Rapporteurs of the UN into action and the ICJ for violation of the ICCPR treaty.

    But we must not make the mistake of assuming this was just a matter of stupidity on the part of Madrid.

    By far their biggest fear was that a majority of the electorate in Catalan voted for independence, that would have over-ridden any claimed historic constitutional agreement and had to be avoided.

    Least of two devils from a Madrid viewpoint.

    Question is, would they be willing to go as far as the UK to hold on to their last colony by leaving the ECHR and EU?

    The UK and Spain are clearly working in cahoots and arguably also with Turkey (which has the Kurd problem).

    The frightening prospect of a new fascist axis of those old imperialist powers on the periphery looms.

    Imperialism can be viewed as a powerful drug and to continue that metaphor those three could be likened to those evicted from rehab for possession and use of drugs, albeit a small amount, to feed their habit but still be able to feign recovery.

  445. geeo says:

    @breeks @9.27.

    Completely agree regarding EU.

    Said the same thing at the height of the violence yesterday.

    Catalan president stated last night his government were taking Spain to task in the international courts.

    Coupled with the stated intention of an upcoming Catalan UDI, and frankly, the EU have no choice than to hold fire until they have the above processes started.

    The EU are not a reactionary body, they take the measured approach, with 27 members to consider, that is the only way they can operate.

    Very interesting times ahead, times which should have WM sweating.

    90% si’ despite a violent state crackdown on democracy, stunning !!

    WM would not dare copy those tactics in Scotland, not that it was ever likely, as our situation is completely different, we want a referendum to end a political union, not to secede in the traditional manner such as Catalonia, a region within a country.

    We already are a country, so its not a UDI we would be seeking as such, should WM deny our democratically mandated referendum choice.

    In our last resort circumstance, we would simply be asserting our Sovereign right to end the union due to WM breach of the Act of Union 1707 and the treaties within said Act by WM themselves.

    Our end game in the face of WM intransigence is a slam dunk.And WM know it.

  446. Ottomanboi says:

    European press consensus is that Rajoy has lost credibility and cannot last. However, will he be succeeded by a hard liner or a dialoguist with the wisdom to adjust to this unique situation? The Catalan government proposed declaring a republic within 48hrs of the final result being declared. That seems hazardous given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding the vote. The independence parties must stick together and avoid anything that smacks of ‘banana republic’; a term already in use by some, not all unsympathetic.
    The high moral ground is with the Generalitat de Catalunya, may it stay that way.
    Bona sort, Catalunya! Good luck Catalonia!

  447. Liz g says:

    geeo 10.41
    Completely agree,in fact as far as I can see.
    The best chance Westminster have of keeping the Treaty of the Union, is to have the vote and win it!
    Only question is could they keep on winning because this Union has never been truly settled.

  448. Meg merrilees says:


    It’s a real expose of their true objective are this morning.

    The National, the Scotsman, The Times and The Telegraph and a third of the Daily Record show pictures of Catalonia and the violence.

    The Herald thinks the shock of primary school children on medication is the most important news in Scotland today; The Daily Heil preaches that (t)Ruthless is the best thing ever but fails to mention that she would be a lame-duck PM because of EVEL unless she is elected in England. The Daily Express is a comic! although it does mention the violent clashes in Spain and the ‘P n J’ and ‘Courier’ must still be operating the Julian calendar!!!

    Mildly surprised that the BBC is reporting it as ‘ police used force to try to block voting’ — however, shouldn’t that read:
    “Police used disproportionate force to try and stop PEOPLE voting”
    No mention of rubber bullets being used, of 800+ people injured, of elderly people attacked, of people thrown down stairs with broken fingers, or of ‘riot robots’ attacking firemen defending the voters and local police creating barriers to protect the people.

    wonderful quote from Rahoy;

    “we’ve been an example to the world”…..

    SHAME on all of these people who will not speak up for democracy and a pox on all those who perpetrated the violence yesterday.

  449. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Yeah, agree with that, geeo. I have a feeling it was 90% ‘Si’ because of the crackdown, not despite it, though. Maybe not, who knows.

  450. Fred says:

    Heartening to see the Catalans intend to bin the monarchy & declare a republic!

  451. DC says:

    Sorry guys but this is all too familiar – perhaps not the rubber bullets, but the kicking, dragging by the hair and general roughing up of protestors was standard treatment for us in Wales at the hands of the police during the 70s and 80s when we were campaigning to secure the right to use our own language in our own country. The MSM response and that of the Labour party is also very familiar. Don’t think it can’t happen here – it has already.

  452. Petra says:

    @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 2:04 am …….

    ”Your response re “how people voted” still looks fairly anecdotal to me.”

    Oh well, that’s what people like Stu run articles based on Robert. Polls and research findings may not be spot on, as we well know, but give you a fair idea of the direction of travel.

    ”More worrying, your blanket statement about 2nd-home owners and even more so, people on holiday (?) just doesn’t ring true…. So you would have to have a substantial degree of presence to be able to register, and certainly not just because of the occasional fly-by visit.”

    Do you think that the Electoral Commission, for example, has the time to check every solitary application or that people will be aware of their neighbours voting at all? I know for a fact that holiday home owners, who never stay at their homes, normally just rent out, voted in the Referendum. I also know that many individuals from NIreland and south of the border made their way to Scotland, short term, to ensure that they had a house key in their hand / an address by 2/09/2014 to enable them to vote. Last day to register to vote, not 31/08/2014 as I stated previously.

    You say that ”interestingly, Cornwall Council had a real problem with a substantial concentration of incomer voters in their area, and back in 2011 or so it instituted a thorough review of the degree of residence of 2nd-home owners, and excised all of them who weren’t present for at least 6 months.”

    I notice that you accept that this was an acknowledged problem in Cornwall, so why not Scotland?

    Very simple indeed for more than one resident per household to vote (illegally).

    ”I think you missed my point re “fringe”. There may be local concentrations, but the overall number over the whole of Scotland wouldn’t matter if only a relatively small proportion of native-born Scots were willing to take their sovereignty seriously. Like every other country which ran an independence plebiscite. That’s where the real anomaly lies, and that’s the anomaly that really must be addressed if we are to win.”

    The overall number of relocators to Scotland does matter, imo, Robert. We’re talking about heading towards around 20% of the electorate now as many of those who have come to Scotland are of an age to vote, such as the elderly. You may not want to believe the research findings, a number of them, that highlighted that their vote tipped the balance at that time. That’s your perogative of course.

    I take your point about native-born Scottish voters and of course totally agree with you. That’s why I visit Wings, post elsewhere online and work extremely hard in the real world in an attempt to ‘convert’ our home grown voters who have been brainwashed by years of propaganda.

    However lessons should be learned from Indyref1 such as the electoral ‘loopholes’, Purda being broken, postal votes that were opened prior to 18/09/2014 and so on. It would also make sense to invite the Polish electoral monitoring team to Scotland prior to the next Referendum if for no other reason than that they monitor the Media for 6 months prior to the vote. That could put a bit of a spoke in the MSM wheels.

    A number of factors to consider:

  453. Ann says:


    In my wee backward village, I very rarely see a Times, Telegraph or Scotsman in the wee corner shop?. Would have to visit the big one where finding the National IS difficult

  454. cirsium says:

    @Petra, 12.59pm

    Thanks for posting the report from the Centre on Constitutional Change. Very interesting reading.

  455. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Petra @ 12:59,

    It’s not the job of the Electoral Commission to check actual registrations; they set the rules but it’s the duty of local electoral registration officers spread across the country to implement them. (The people who send all of us the registration update forms each year.)

    The register that was used for the independence referendum was the exact same one as used for local elections, augmented by a temporary register of young persons 16-17 according to an Act of Holyrood for the purpose.

    Registration officials were very aware of the rules, which I have quoted to you. If it was the case, as you say, that people were being allowed to register to vote on the flimsiest of residency pretexts, they were being enabled to do so incorrectly by local registration officials.

    I don’t think we disagree on the need for registration to be done properly, with the necessary oversight being provided by local councils, under full independent scrutiny if necessary. That may be the real answer to the problem you feel existed.

    Since then, of course, registration arrangements in general have been tightened with the introduction of individual registration, though the concern there seems to have been ensuing genuine voter identity rather than anything else.

  456. Ken MacColl says:

    It is chilling to reflect that in the reporting of those grim events running up to and including Sunday’s happening in Catalonia, the reports from tis website and from mobile toting participants were clearer and much more comprehensive than anything available from our national broadcaster. The BBC really are scraping the bottom on their presentation of news and current affairs.
    I have long since reached the age where I am exempt from any liability for a TV licence which denies me the opportunity of withholding payment.
    I find too that here I can also access the predictably off the wall comments of such political dinosaurs as Brian Wilson and Duncan Hotherstall – they would not have lasted two minutes in the ILP or the International Brigade- without contributing in any way to their income.

  457. North chiel says:

    Entirely agree with ” Petra@ 1259″ last paragraph ” lessons must be learned”
    Don’t want to ” rake over old coals” , however never been happy with :
    Significantly higher turnout in ” No areas”
    Ruth D & Cameron ” knowing” the result at 1001pm
    No exit poll
    By my ” reckoning” circa 60/70 votes per polling station could have ” tipped the balance”.
    The ” Dunoon report was an eye opener”.
    Let’s get it right next time. As Petra says ” get the Polish monitoring team in 6 months prior to the vote”.

  458. twathater says:

    RJS I normally agree with your posts but Petra is highlighting a very real concern many people have in relation to incomers from the rUK and elsewhere, Anne from NI and others I recognise that you may feel put out but surely in this instance the greater possibility of a yes vote would ameliorate any hurt feelings . I get what you say RJS about our own scotbuts but the inclusion of so many definite colonial naws makes the mountain to climb so much higher , we must take every opporchansity to alleviate a very determined bias wherever it may be
    I would agree to a proposal of a minimum residential period of 8 years which would cover EU nationals and rUK residents for fairness , no holiday home votes at all , no non resident student votes , residential homes or care homes to be strictly monitored for obvious reasons , no armed services votes to stop UK flooding in personnel, I know these are contentious issues but let’s be honest waste monster will do ANYTHING to hold on to their cash cow

  459. Old Pete says:

    Agree with Petra, we need an even “playing field”
    The vast majority of “white settlers” from south of the border effectively thwarted our chance of Independence in the last referendum, this should not be allowed to happen again.

  460. Alex Clark says:

    @Old Pete

    We don’t do divisiveness here best to go back to facebook. You are well sussed.

  461. Meg merrilees says:


    Anybody know if our new bridge was operational throughou the high winds this morning. I heard that ‘the forth’ bridge’ was open but didn’t hear any reference to the Queensferrry crossing being operational….

    Just think it would be nice to give credit where credit is due??

  462. Old Pete says:

    Don’t do Facebook, sorry if having a difference of opinion is a problem. Thought all folk on here want Scottish Independence. Having a fair crack is surely the best approach ?

  463. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    twathater @ 15:58,

    I just have this sinking feeling that people are trying to re-run the last referendum by moving the goalposts past the ball rather than the other way around! =grin=

    And obviously (?) we have to do better than that.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not at all antipathetic to the basic notion of established residence, and in my previous posting I was willing to recognise that there may be legitimate concerns that some people were allowed to register incorrectly.

    That may be the real loophole the last time round that needs to be closed.

    It seems to me that the basic principle behind any vote should be that only those who have to live with the full consequences of it should have the right to one. So I’m not very sympathetic to holiday home owners being able to vote at all in an independence referendum, just because we’re currently all still in the good ole UK.

    I worry though because, besides the practicality of it all, where do you draw the line? Last time round we (rightly) allowed 16/17 year olds to vote, since it’s their future at stake more than anyone else’s, but you could argue – on similar grounds – that 80/90-year-olds are hardly likely to see much at all of that future, so should thus be excluded. Then also maybe 70-year-olds as well, etc, etc.

    Now before anyone in those age brackets jumps down my throat and says there are many people of that age who, with great clarity of mind, support indy for the sake of their grandkids, of course there are, but the statistics still tell us that removing those groups from the vote would enhance the likelihood of indy winning. But we would never contemplate such a measure, would we?

    I still feel that in the end, it’s a majority of Scots we need to convince in order to win. There are no tweaks, no quick fixes, no short cuts that will do the job, and we are in danger of wasting precious time and effort looking for a magic wand.

  464. Cactus says:

    I pay homage too. One day we should twin both our nations

    To the People of Catalonia.
    To the People of Scotland.

    That footage above from Gissur Simonarson (where a ‘knuckle-dragging ned’ is walking into a polling station sporting a hi-vis vest wearing only a BALACLAVA, accompanied by his heavies) that, and the many others are examples of authorised acts of terrorism and that’s coming from their own current Spanish PM. WOW!

    Do the peaceful people look terrified? Yes!

    Internal terrorism is what it is.

    It is what it is.

    Aussi, Congratulations to the people! You WON! Sovereign iCatalonia!

  465. Cactus says:

    Have the riot squad gone yet? Are they still there? Either way,

    Aweright and message to the excellent People of Catalonia ~

    Ye know how yous are all taking the day off of work tomorrow… you should hold the biggest impromptu party this planet has ever seen..

    After all, you voted Yes!

  466. Cactus says:

    Where are the riot squad, are they on the cruise ships, have a Titanic farewell you fuckers.

  467. Cactus says:


  468. Robert Craig says:

    The EU and the rest of us too must not stay silent. “Who stays silent consents …”. The figures say it all: 2.3 million votes (so 2.3 million “illegal acts”) and not one person arrested. 893 beaten up. That’s the action of a police state, not one ruled by law.

  469. gus1940 says:

    Is it not strange that there have been no reports so far of the Fascist Storm Troopers actually arresting any of the innocent voters they were brutalising?

  470. Alistair White says:

    Paul Sweeney MP: self-determination relates to ‘colonies’. Rubbish

    “The principle of self-determination refers to the right of a people to determine its own political destiny. Beyond this broad definition, however, no legal criteria determine which groups may legitimately claim this right…it could mean the right of people to choose their form of government within existing borders or by achieving independence from a colonial power. It could mean the right of an ethnic, linguistic, or religious group to redefine existing national borders to achieve a separate national sovereignty or simply to achieve a greater degree of autonomy and linguistic or religious identity within a sovereign state.”

    Encyclopedia of American Foreign Policy, (2002) by Betty Miller Unterberger

  471. Gerry says:

    An idea of the scale of it in Catalonia today.

  472. Robert Craig says:

    Message to me from my MSP: A Commission statement on the Constitution, rule of law and fundamental Rights in Spain in the light of the events of Catalonia” has now been added to the plenary agenda tomorrow (4 October) as a first item (around 15.00).

    The Strasbourg Plenary of the European Parliament is streamed live here:
    And for tomorrow, more specifically here:

  473. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Craig “A Commission statement on the Constitution, rule of law and fundamental Rights in Spain in the light of the events of Catalonia”

    Interesting to see if they rise to the challenge and make a balanced statement, within both the wording and spirit of the Lisbon Articles. Including “fundamental rights” in that announcement does seem to indicate they might do.

    Not heard much about the EU Committee of the Regions, but President Lambertz had this to say on Sunday:

    Violence will never solve the problem. Calm, peaceful & constructive dialogue is urgently needed #CatalanReferendum #Catalonia #EUregions

  474. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Spanish King criticises the Catalan people for engaging in a vote. Any mention of the state brutality?

    Eh that’s a no.

    Glad to be a Republican. Our organisation Republic will need to open a branch in Catalonia.

    God bless Catalonia.

  475. Achnababan says:

    How can we support, help Catalonia right now…. any petitions, coordinated action, protests, embargoes? WE need to signal to the people of Catalonia we will not allow them to be trodden down by the Fascist boot. WE must show that we are not impotent against the fascists in Spain and the UK and their fascist media

  476. Joan says:

    Hello I’m Catalan
    Help and diffusion: The government of Spain wants to hide what has happened and Catalonia need urgent help in the next hours. Please!

  477. UKExpat says:

    Now I really understand why the people of Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands continue to vote in the very high 90%s to remain as UK citizens in their referendums.

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