The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Out come the freaks

Posted on August 06, 2017 by

In the continuing summer absence of any sort of Scottish politics news (the Sunday papers consist of Michelle Thomson understandably taking a swipe at the SNP in the Sunday Post, the Sunday Times spluttering in impotent fury that Michelle Thomson wasn’t prosecuted, and the Sunday Herald giving a glowing write-up to idiot Tory MSP Annie Wells while savaging sections of the Yes movement yet again – this time “older white men”), we thought you might enjoy a piece from the archives.

Discovered by an alert reader, this 1976 Times article features Labour MP for Basildon Eric Moonman discussing the seemingly-imminent prospect of Scottish devolution, to which he was implacably opposed and instrumental in defeating, ultimately leading to the collapse of a Labour government and the election of Mrs Thatcher.

The first paragraph in column 2 is particularly choice.

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 06 08 17 12:57

      Out come the freaks | speymouth

    281 to “Out come the freaks”

    1. Betty Boop says:

      I’m quite happy with my freakdom.

    2. Ken500 says:

      ”while Mrs Thatcher will almost certainly slide into bed with the Scottish Nationalists in a coalition, Labour cannot’. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Unionists in coalition. Tories in with DUP.

    3. Alasdair Macdonald says:

      And what has changed in Labour, Tory and LibDem thinking on this matter in the interim?

      Hee haw.

    4. Stoker says:

      Yet, there are those among us who still help to finance these rags. Of course, The Sunday Herald is pro-indy, isn’t it?

    5. mogabee says:

      What an eyeopener! The language is pretty strong and the “freaks” reference to the SNP is one we all recognise from the mouths of the ‘tolerant’ labour!

      I for one have never thought of the Labour party as “radical”.

    6. Dr Jim says:

      Yes, it’s only fair that one Nation Inglind should get the chance to decide everyone else’s future

      Oooh! they just did that didn’t they and what an Arse they made of it too, and they’re so far up their own Arses they wont let us fix the Bolloxing mess

      And that’s the whole point of Independence for Scotland

      Scottish people are the real Nation builders, always have been, just ask the rest of the world

    7. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The anti independence Sunday Herald also gives space to Ross Greer with a particularly stomache churning holier than thou load of pious irrelevance. This is the sort of wee shite that starts a fight then runs to mummy when somebody hits back.

    8. Dunk Mitchelson says:

      “White collared conservative flashing down the street
      Pointing their plastic finger at me
      They’re hoping soon my kind will drop and die
      But I’m gonna wave my freak flag high, high
      Wave on, wave on”
      If 6 was 9 ……Jimi Hendrix

    9. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…it is unthinkable that we should contemplate taking so major a step as separating the component parts of our nation without giving everyone a chance to express their views…”

      Oh right. So following that “simple logic” then surely the other 27 countries of the EU should have been allowed to express their views on Brexit, shouldn’t they? Simple logic.

      ——————————————-
      Roofie-babes no’ getting the message…

      http://imgur.com/a/nGzvL

    10. reginald says:

      After reading the article,I looked up Wilkapedia to see whatever happened to Eric Moonman.I read that Moonman has spent most of his life defending the state of Israel,which is an entirely honourable right in our democracy but cannot avoid the thought that he is a total hypocrite in denigrating Scottish Nationalism.

    11. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The SNP is quite considerably the victim of its own tactics which I cannot understand.

      If it does not campaign and concentrate on the independence question it allows the whole media to root about looking for and finding dozens of reasons to attack it across a whole range of irrelevances. This is what is happening.

      Feel strongly for Michelle Thomson, understand she has had a bad and very painful deal while also understanding that the SNP putting her aside would have been a very difficult judgement call but also very deeply disappointed in her going public against the SNP and Nicola.

      I have known lots of people in the SNP over my many years who have bitten their tongues and got on with the battle.

      But all this, which is par for the course in any organisation which has human beings in it, would have been swallowed up in the background if we were going full out for independence and they were having to battle with us on that battleground.

    12. mike cassidy says:

      And like a good Labor politician, Moonman was still trying to help himself to some of the gravy train 34 years after being rejected by the electorate.

      http://archive.is/mSXA2

    13. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’d rather be a Freak than be a Yoon ,
      Yes I would , if I could
      I surely would!

      Away , I’d rather sail away
      Like a swan that’s been and gone
      A Yoon gets tied up to the ground
      And gives this world its saddest sound
      Its saddest sound -oh cringe!

    14. Jim Watson says:

      Sorry Reginald but defending an apartheid genocidal state like Israel is not within my definition of honourable, it hey ho each to their own and all that…

      I remember standing beside Tommy Graham MP during an election campaign. The hatred he had for the SNP was very obvious – “Look at them” I recall him saying, “They are all Nazis you know”…

    15. Robert Graham says:

      Aye Labour same today as when this piece was published .

      I think he might have had a point , the other parts of this country should have a say in the determination of scotland to exit this union .

      If a nationwide referendum were conducted tomorrow and england and all others had a vote , i believe we would unceremoniously be invited to GTF , we would be out on our arses by next week .

      After all they and their media have spent countless years in promoting how much of a drain we are , how we alone are the beggars and bloody moaners , they might even pay to see us leave

    16. jfngw says:

      Exclusive in next weeks Sunday Herald, how becoming a Lord in no way diminishes my desire for a republic by Lord HeeHaw.

      I only ever bought a Sunday paper but with the Herald turning its back on independence support I think I have run out of options. I can look on the bright side, I’m going to save about £100.

    17. gordoz says:

      When will SNP politicians learn ? Never go to the media in times of troubles (ever) especially the BBC – they are not your friends and will distort your words or motives at every opportunity. This is state media after all lets not be naive.

      HAD a lot of sympathy for Michelle Thomson former MP regarding spurious allegations & Yes she has a gripe with the SNP hierarchy, but they were forced into a difficult position by her contacts & a hostile media of Scotland.

      Remember it was the frigging BBC that did the bulk of the hounding and tenuous extension of a non-story (SNPbad) as always ??

      No doubt MT has the right for a face to face with FM, but what possessed her to run to the BBC to tell tales ??? (Another Alex Bell in the making – who knows?). As Dave Hill says a above, she could have kept her wrath as an internal matter in terms of a movement she says she holds dear, (particularly if she had hopes of a political return), many others have held their tongues in the past for the sake of the cause.

      Maybe shes reaching out to other parties who really knows.

      Todays display was obviously pounced on by the BBC and other hostile parties as Stu says but MT would have known this or she has been more than foolish to open up such a wound over her treatment.

      Very disappointed by MTs actions today.
      Forgivable ? Who knows ?

    18. Stuart McNicoll says:

      Sounds a bit desperate really, but I suppose having just buried the 2 McCrone reports on Scotland’s oil wealth, you can perhaps understand why. I note that at that time we weren’t viewed as separatists and extremists or blood and soil nationalists. Or maybe they did.

    19. heedtracker says:

      gordoz says:
      6 August, 2017 at 1:09 pm
      When will SNP politicians learn ?

      Become one and find out.

      I am sick to death of listening to you lot shoot from the lip and do absolutely f all else.

      Get off your big backsides and stand for election, if you think you can do better.

      There’s nothing to say you wouldn’t.

      So let’s find out:D

    20. Portjim says:

      “the Labour Party cannot form a coalition with any party that does not share its fundamental philosophy.” – Anyone told Kez?, or is Slabs fundamental philosophy now officially “Nats out, and sod everything else”?
      Having said that, I can understand the attitude – my philosophy is “independence before all” – details about NATO, monarchy vs republic, labour/ Tory/ SNP government, EU or EFTA etc. can be decided by the Scottish People when we finally have the power to decide anything!

    21. Fairliered says:

      Gordon, the SNP did have another option. They could have supported Michelle Thomson and attacked the BBC.

    22. Dan Huil says:

      Britnat freaks, then as now.

    23. heedtracker says:

      Dan Huil says:
      6 August, 2017 at 1:47 pm
      Britnat freaks, then as now.

      They’re extremely well rewarded though. Look at Flipper Darling, Lordshipness, seat on Morgan Stanley board, he’s a very British kind of socialist worker.

      Most City banksters, like Morgan Stanley board members are there the old fashioned way, family ties, nepotism, right school ties etc.

      Lord Flipper really did work his way up, from nothing, if Lorretto can be called nothing:D

    24. Dan Huil says:

      @heedtracker 1:54pm

      Aye, “ermine vermin” indeed.

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says: 6 August, 2017 at 12:46 pm:

      “The SNP is quite considerably the victim of its own tactics which I cannot understand.”

      Aye! Richt!

      I think many of we Wingers got the message that you. “cannot understand the SNP’s tactics”, quite some considerable time ago, Dave McEwan Hill.

      Mind you I would never claim to attempt to speak on behalf of any other Wingers, much less many of them, who will all have their own individual views and aims.

      Factually it is actually one of the SNP’s great strengths that it is a, “Broad-Brush party”. Furthermore, I realise that Wings is an even broader-brush organ that includes most independence groups and even a, disproportionately, excessively voluble, anti-independence minority.

      Wings would become very dull, enclosed in a bubble, and only spoke to itself if not for the differences in opinions we get here. Personally I don’t mind being contradicted or proven wrong. Which won’t prevent me from expressing my personal views strongly. Debate and argument are healthy signs provided that an open mind-set prevails.

      Hopefully we never become enclosed in a bubble of our own creation.

    26. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Moonman the yoon loon man, same as it ever was.

    27. heedtracker says:

      Dan Huil says:
      6 August, 2017 at 2:07 pm
      @heedtracker 1:54pm

      Aye, “ermine vermin” indeed.

      My gen watched great Labour Welsh windbag Kinnock bash on and on about scrapping the Lords. Now him and all his fellow socialist workers are all sitting in it.

      Wiki quotes, Baron Kinockio, another red tory by any other monicar.

      “The House of Lords must go – not be reformed, not be replaced, not be reborn in some nominated life-after-death patronage paradise, just closed down, abolished, finished.
      Tribune (November 19, 1976).

      Last Updated: Monday, 31 January, 2005, 18:17 GMT

      The ex-Labour leader was once a vocal opponent of the House of Lords

      Former Labour leader Neil Kinnock has officially been made a life peer during a ceremony in the House of Lords.
      He will be known Baron Kinnock of Bedwellty – after his former constituency.

      Lord Kinnock – who led Labour from 1983 until 1992 – was until recently one of Britain’s EU commissioners.”

      Aint no greater hypocrite than a UKOK Labour socialist worker.

    28. george wood says:

      Fairliered says:
      6 August, 2017 at 1:32 pm

      “Gordon, the SNP did have another option. They could have supported Michelle Thomson and attacked the BBC.”

      It was her business practices that were difficult to defend, which meant the SNP couldn’t back her. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.
      It depends on where your moral compass is how you view her business practices.

    29. HandandShrimp says:

      I had completely forgotten the marvelously named Moonman.

      How little has changed in the Unionist camp. It was their conniving that scuppered the first devolution settlement and with the subsequent formation of the SDP they pretty much scuppered Labour for 20 years too.

    30. Kenny says:

      Terrible mindset of these unionists. Little has changed even today. I noticed that Mr Moonbase refused to call Scotland a country, instead referring to Scotland as a Region, then a Section then a Geographical Area and finally a Component Part

    31. Robert Graham says:

      O/T – Oh dear how disappointing Michelle Thomson felt the need to vent her obvious anger at her treatment she endured during the spurious vindictive media onslaught, by allowing herself to be used by the selfsame media to score a direct hit on The SNP, Quite possibly she felt ostracised by the party, we can only surmise the interaction between the SNP management and herself, in other words we don’t know .
      Thus begins another front by the Union in its quest for self preservation, we had a glimpse of this in the past few weeks, divide and rule , that is the obvious ploy , all Indy supporting sites have had a increase in disruptive characters recently, this is not by accident, it’s a deliberate action, and it’s moving at a pace now and money is no object .

      It might help if once identified these interlopers are not engaged with, but totally ignored , don’t encourage them, they have a job to do don’t assist them. Just a Thought.

    32. Dr Jim says:

      The Independence movement is doing it all wrong

      says Tories Labour Greens and everybody else who’s NOT in the Independence movement (Greens are not in the Independence movement, they’ve always just been backing a horse, sorry Green folk who’ve been duped into thinking differently)

      I guess that conclusively proves most of us must be getting it right then

      The SNP are the cruise missile of Independence they wont be deviated until they get it and if I didn’t think for one Nano second that wasn’t true I wouldn’t be a member of it

      The Tories and Labour and Lib Dems all know that too, it’s why they stop at nothing to thwart them and why the Brits in Inglind hate them so much and also why nobody cares about the Greens because they’re not significant in anything except the pursuit of their own relevance

    33. Valerie says:

      The aptly named Mr Moonman can take his revolting opinions and shove them.

      Ross Greer is a nasty piece too.

      @Jim Watson

      I worked in Renfrewshire Council, and complained, as a member of staff, about Tommy Graham. Vile man.

    34. bugsbunny says:

      Reginald@12.38pm,

      The same can be said for Brian Wilson, George Galloway, Billy Connolly etc. All deride Scottish Independence yet support Irish Unity.

      O/T. I was youtube earlier when I dared suggest to a Colonel Blimp that the BBC is not impartial. I decided to answer as of yet, in case I get kicked off for inflammatory language.

      bugsbunny20226 hours ago
      The Russians sound like the English. The BBC is the biggest bullshitter going. Their history programmes are full of disinformation. They no longer report news but make it up. BBC = RT. Bullshit merchants of the highest order.?
      Reply
      Laurance Robinson
      Laurance Robinson6 hours agoHighlighted reply
      bugsbunny2022 except the BBC constantly ranks super high for impartial, reliable and trusted news. The only way to group the BBC and RT together is to called them both media.?
      Reply

    35. Dr Jim says:

      Former First Minister Alex Salmond gives all profits from his Edinburgh Festival Show to charity

      Just thought I’d report that because the Scottish media “forgot”

    36. Cairnallochy says:

      If Ms T is genuinely so aggrieved with the SNP (and I admit she may have the right to be so), the answer lies In her own hands. A high profile switch to Labour would delight the MMS, and as a useful by – product, would lead to a sudden loss of interest in her property dealings on the part of the Daily Record.

      What, me cynical ?

    37. bugsbunny says:

      The tabloids are good at forgetting things. Remember the 1930’s Daily Mail headline, “Hurrah for the Blackshirts”. The day Princess Diana died, Sunday 31st August 1997 all the Sunday Newspapers had photos of her and Dodi Fayad on their front pages with him and her in bathing suits on his yacht. They were virtually screaming “Whore”, yet the next day the same Daily Editions had “The People’s Princess”. The BBC had the striking miners of Orgreave Colliery for years portrayed as charging the Police and the Police goaded into retaliation when it was in fact the other way around.

      We are surrounded by Media that “conveniently” forget things. It’s 1984 all over again.

    38. Dr Jim says:

      The British media only ranks 40th in the world

      But they tell us they’re really really brilliant and Truthy and the world respects the BBC

      Yet the world obviously says they’re lying to us

      The folk in North Korea get told the same stuff by their media as we do by ours and the BBC says they’re lying to their people

      In some countries governments take over the media and even line them up and shoot them and then get on with telling different lies to people

      Or is it the truth?

      It’s really really hard being a people anywhere eh?

    39. jfngw says:

      Lunatic fringe killing independence movement? I always considered the Greens a lunatic fringe, I suppose it depends on where you are positioned to decide who the lunatics are.

      Anyway Mr Greer is now the latest unionist darling. The solution never vote Green, they are fair-weather independence supporters.

    40. velofello says:

      Aye, there is political mischief afoot at the Sunday Herald

      The Sunday Herald seems to have embarked on a path of providing friendly profiles of Tory MSPs. Brian Whittle a few weeks ago, now Annie Wells – the nicest Tory at Holyrood opines the article. Next up Murdo Frazer? We would be better served if the paper did an analysis of how persons of fragile political inclination and experience, and those serially rejected by the voters, secured seats as MSPs via the discreditted d’Hondt List system.

      Angela Haggerty, following on from her disastrous column last week manages to fill two columns – her job obligation? – writing about nothing at all using twitter and Rowlings as the topic.

      Next up, Ros Greer taking on the role of I M Jolly with his view of awfy bad responses by people to Cat Boyd voting Labour.

      Firstly Ros, do you know any/all of the people who, in your opinion, were less than respectful in their responses? Are you certain some/many weren’t anti-Indy persons “having a laugh”? And RiSE didn’t particularly aid the Indy movement with it’s Holyrood campaign.

      I’m disappointed with Michelle Thomson’s article today., Natalie McGarrie was also in difficulty. Now if the SNP had unconditionally backed both consider the MSM/BBC attacks on the SNP as the McGarry situation unfolds.A tough call by the SNP management at the time, now shown to be the correct one.

    41. bugsbunny says:

      Dr Jim,

      Even so called “impartial” folks believe the BBC is impartial. Some folks really can’t see the wood for the trees. The BBC from it’s very inception in 1922 have been a State Broadcaster of Government Propaganda. Didn’t untRuth Davidson work for the BBC? I wouldn’t be surprised if she was also a spook as well.

    42. heedtracker says:

      The British media only ranks 40th in the world

      Mind the “Be the media” slogan? Gads and no thanks. Who on earth wants to be a professional liar anyway? Other than liars that is. If youre an ex Graun reader like me, it was in many a self kidology, but then their prog lib mask simply plopped off and here we are, nothing but mountains of tory rags, belching out their endless rule tory britannia grot, even if you don’t want to buy their neo fascist propaganda, they stick in it your hand as you jump on the train.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/friends-like-these-2/

    43. izzie says:

      I cant believe that Nicola and co haven’t thought through both exoneration and Police proceedings. MT came across in her interview as a committed nationalist and she was at pains stress the strength of the support she had had from her fellow MP’s she is [pushing on an open door. Remember folks Alex Salmond was suspended from the party once upon a time.

    44. ScottishPsyche says:

      I’m so glad I have Ross Greer to re calibrate my moral compass. He did such a good job in 2014 telling me who I could listen to and get information from that I found my way here. I’m just glad my instincts about him have proven accurate again.

      In years to come when he leads the Scottish Greens to oblivion I will remember his sanctimony and hypocrisy long after anything good he has ever achieved.

    45. HandandShrimp says:

      I am not sure that Michelle Thompson has given any indication of leaving the SNP and has spoken warmly of the support she got from Alex and others. Her frustration at the mechanics of the party machine is fair and understandable. The SNP had to be seen to be holding a strong position on propriety given the least excuse the media needs to run a million columns of SNP bad but it was an unbending line. It is no surprise that the other parties pay little attention to such matters and rarely suspend office holders even if any investigations into wrongdoing are serious and advanced. It is one rule for them and another for the SNP.

      Ross Greer has yet to say anything I feel is coherent and inspiring on any issue. I wish he would get a grip.

    46. bugsbunny says:

      Heedtracker,

      I have seen that word Graun many a time. By that do you mean The Guardian? as I honestly don’t know.

    47. colin alexander says:

      Reality check:

      The SNP would have been unlikely to form their minority govt if the Scottish Greens had not backed the SNP budget.

      The indyref vote would not have been won unless the Greens voted Aye to it.

      ————————–

      The SNP do not stand on an independence manifesto: they do SOMETIMES stand for a mandate to hold an indyref on independence under certain circumstances.

      They ran an indyref campaign in 2014 but campaigned for a UK Monetary Union with our economy managed by the Bank of England.

      The SNP ran the YES campaign saying we will automatically be part of TWO UNIONS – but independent (I can’t explain that paradox ): A UK Monetary Union and an EU political and economic Union.

      And the UK and EU told them: nae chance.

      I’m sorry if it offends some people, but that was a shambles.

      Now we’ve all to play guessing games about Scotland’s future while the SNP keep it a secret if or when an indyref will take place. Meanwhile, the UK Govt also have us playing guessing games about Brexit.

      Not impressed.

    48. ScottieDog says:

      Speaking of lunatics, I had one on my flight home today from holybaggers.
      Union Jack hold-all. I was trying so hard not to stereotype the rotund balding gent,
      Then her asked for a Bucky…

      On getting off he was chatting to a crew member saying Alex salmond was in his hold-all. His wife shouted “a ken whit I’d dae tae him if he wis!”

      I’m sure Ruth will be the first to call her nutters off now that Ross Greer has done his sermon at the mount.

    49. ScottieDog says:

      So bewildered by Michelle Thomson having anything to do with MSM after they shafted her.
      It’s like fucking Stockholm syndrome.

    50. bugsbunny says:

      It’s 72 years today since the dropping of the Hiroshima bomb and we now have a President with an itchy trigger finger for North Korea. And Boris Johnson’s tongue so far up Trump’s arse, they might as well be one person. They are after all 2 yanks both born in New York., albeit about 20 years apart. Both with mad hair and madder ambitions.

    51. Dr Jim says:

      Where was independence before the SNP panicked the Inglish into devolution
      A village hall twice a year and brave showings of some tweed every now and again
      Where is Independence now? well it’s on the lips and in the minds of politicians Europe wide who now know Scotland exists which in itself has been no mean feat considering the Inglish did their damn best to keep us a secret and only wheel us out to die in their wars or to report Queenies holidays amongst the kilted natives

      Aye the SNP are rubbish!

    52. heedtracker says:

      bugsbunny says:
      6 August, 2017 at 3:50 pm
      Heedtracker,

      I have seen that word Graun many a time. By that do you mean The Guardian? as I honestly don’t know.

      Ofcopurse its the Grauniad:D

      Greatest lying faux lefty hypocrites in Europe today. But the didn’t used to be.

      They were taken over by a ferocious toryboy, Russerbridge, who now heads a cheezy Oxbridge quango, coz is he’s so rad n shit, or fellow of some colleges, as they call it. So UKOK tory establishment, he farts Rule Britannia.

      Worst thing about Graun gimps, not so much their fabulous hypocrisy, its that a sucka like me bought into their fraud for 30 years.

      Lowest hypocrite Graun point is their ongoing war on the SNP and Scottish democracy but under that shill Rusbridger, they were whole hearted fans of the toryboy/FibDem coalition too. Its not by chance.

      Its easy to say, is every threat to the UKOK elite infiltrated by all kinds of shills and thugs but this time at the Graun, it probably has been.

      Also dudes like this,

      https://twitter.com/ProfScottThinks?lang=en

      Rewards are there too, for prospective agents of planet toryboy.

    53. heedtracker says:

      Aye the SNP are rubbish!

      That’s the spirit. Its also not by chance that btl WoS now has resident SNP bad types.

      That’s actually a good sign though.

      Ever the optimist, moi.

    54. Like many of you I am sick and tired of the SNP doing nothing about the bbc and the papers because to do NOTHING is to CONDONE what they are doing for goodness sake SNP you are in power for now so use it against those who would deny us our freedom deeds not words

    55. Liam says:

      Dr Jim says:
      6 August, 2017 at 3:01 pm

      The British media only ranks 40th in the world

      Source please? Sorry if this has been covered before but I really would like to have a quotable source for this.

    56. heedtracker says:

      Blair Paterson says:
      6 August, 2017 at 4:09 pm
      Like many of you I am sick and tired of the SNP doing nothing about the bbc and the papers because to do NOTHING is to CONDONE what they are doing for goodness sake SNP you are in power for now so use it against those who would deny us our freedom deeds not words”

      and right on Q!

      What would you suggest Bliar?

    57. crazycat says:

      @ Bugsbunny

      In the days when it was purely paper-based, The Guardian was (in)famous for its very poor proof-reading and numerous errors.

      Someone – possibly Private Eye – started referring to it by the anagram “Grauniad” plus a number of variations on that theme; as far as I know the paper never actually called itself that accidentally. With new printing technology plus a web presence, the number of typographical errors has fallen (though they still make lots of mistakes), but the nickname has stuck.

      “Graun” is just an abbreviation of Grauniad.

    58. crazycat says:

      @ Heedtracker

      Sorry – you posted while I was typing. Serves me right for answering a question addressed to you.

    59. Flower of Scotland says:

      There is something deeply sinister in this coordinated attack on the SNP and Wings and the Yes movement by the Indy left and Greens.

      It is very disturbing because it has all the hallmarks of the Unionist “divide and rule” policy.

      Thankfully because of the real Yes movement we can discuss and talk to each other on blogs and twitter and show these braggards up for what they really are.

    60. Cairnallochy says:

      I understood that the term Grauniad derived from the notoriously poor proof reading in the Guardian in times past. Whether that is still characteristic I know not since I haven’t seen a copy for years.

    61. gordoz says:

      @heedtracker

      So you condone telling tales via the state media as good practice ? Good for you, (short career in politics ahead methinks).

      Never said I had the answers to anything but I’m pretty clear that MTs selected media action was ill advised and a major error on several levels never mind politics. See how the No side side play this out.

    62. BJ says:

      Michelle Mone on pointless celebrities just now. Neighbour called me in cause he knows I love to see her making a fool of herself 101 Scot HD (I hope )

    63. heedtracker says:

      crazycat says:
      6 August, 2017 at 4:14 pm
      @ Bugsbunny

      In the days when it was purely paper-based, The Guardian was (in)famous for its very poor proof-reading and numerous errors.

      It was an amazing radical lefty paper, old Graun. Private Eye is as we know really just London centred English upper class private school boy grot but they especially hated Graun’s coverage of wimmin’s issues.

      No wonder. Ian Hyslop’s a right little toryboy, old school. But then come 2014 in Scotland and there’s the Graun marching shoulder to shoulder with the Orange Order, especially that anti indy OO march through Edinburgh late summer 2014.

      Fair enough Severin Carrell is also just another UKOK tory propagandist and “your enemy is my friend” is clearly the new Graun motto in Scotland, but Graun boosting up the OO was a real shock.

      They really went for it too. Bigots a go go, at the Graun.

      http://archive.is/6S0hH

    64. Alex Clark says:

      The section below from today’s Herald article by Ross Greer is really something. Naive and immature at best, shear ignorance at worst and this from an MSP.

      “The attacks on Cat Boyd have sat alongside full-blown denunciations of ‘feminists,’ the ‘LGBT movement’ and ‘social justice warriors’ and calls for ‘their’ exclusion from the movement.

      Coincidently, I’m sure these comments come overwhelmingly from older white men. I’d be fascinated to hear their strategy for winning next time without women, the LGBT community, anyone suffering from inequality or their friends and allies.

      When they tell you that equality and social justice matter, just not as much as independence, what they’re really saying is they’ll throw you under the bus without a second thought if the bigotry or bullying directed your way is coming from one of their own.”

      The first thing I would like to know is where have these attacks taken place? Is he referring to the most popular Indy supporting blogs such as Wings Over Scotland, Wee Ginger Dug or others that I read Scot Goes Pop or Derek Batemen? Or is he talking about some other Indy supporting blogs or totally about Twitter and maybe Facebook?

      He doesn’t say, so we cannot know.

      I can say this of the Four blogs I mentioned that I mainly read I’ve very very rarely saw any “full-blown denunciations of ‘feminists,’ the ‘LGBT movement’ and ‘social justice warriors’” in the comments on these blogs unless from those who were in fact found out to be trolls. In general the opposite is very true especially on Wings.

      So I take it he must be talking about somewhere else then that is full of this lunatic fringe. It’s so far on the fringe of the Indy movement that I’ve never managed to even stumble upon it.

      Coincidentally, I wonder what makes him “sure these comments come overwhelmingly from older white men.”. Does he have evidence of older white men making such comments? Can he produce some to back up his claims and let us see them?

      He’s a fantasist, like many others. The thing is these people who are actually attacking the Independence movement are being given a platform from which to do so. Something that no commentator btl on my favourite blog would ever have.

      I have encouraged others to support the Greens on here at various times in the past, believing that it would help the Independence case overall.

      No longer will I do that. They are not worthy of my support when they have spokespeople so stupid not to see that it is such as themselves who are actually the “lunatic fringe” and exhibiting cultish behaviour.

      I’ll be ignoring their “contribution” from now on, same as I’d do for any troll that sets out to divide supporters of Independence.

    65. Robert Graham says:

      Against my own judgement and advice I really have to correct the resident comedian.

      Monetary Union was as we all know was a temporary arrangement, much in the same way as the newly independent Ireland continued to use the Pound until they sorted their own currency arrangements out. It was never envisaged as a permanent measure.

      So if the resident comedian really has to have a dig at the only party who can enable Independence, please get your facts right, most here can counter your arguments blindfolded.

      Now that is your reality check, good try but as usual NO Cigar .

    66. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Peffers at 2.12

      The only reason I read that post (I stopped reading your posts about 18 months ago) is that you mentioned myself.
      Apparently we are a “broad brush party” but we are not allowed to have different opinions. So saith the sage. How exactly does that work?
      Oops. Don’t bother answering.
      Perhaps – like most of us – you could keep your assaults for our enemies

    67. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Graham says: 6 August, 2017 at 12:59 pm:

      “Aye Labour same today as when this piece was published .
      I think he might have had a point , the other parts of this country should have a say in the determination of scotland to exit this union .”

      Yes indeed, Robert, the other parts of this country, and kingdom, of Scotland should have a say in the determination of the kingdom and country of Scotland from the four country United Kingdom that is not a country in itself.

      ” … If a nationwide referendum were conducted tomorrow and england and all others had a vote , i believe we would unceremoniously be invited to GTF , we would be out on our arses by next week.

      A nationwide referendum of the nation of Scotland was already been held but is well out of date now and we thus require another one. If we held a joint referendum of all four nations or countries of the two partner United Kingdom we would be faced with the same situation that has seen the nation, country and kingdom of Scotland held in dominion by the very large majority of the other three countries of England, Wales and N.I, that comprise the only other kingdom of the United Kingdom two partner United Kingdom who obviously have brainwashed you to believe their propaganda that the United Kingdom is a unified country, nation and Kingdom.

      It isn’t any of the above – “The United Kingdom”, has only two, (Equally Sovereign), member kingdoms. It has four member Countries but only three are parts of the Kingdom of England.

      Only Scotland is a country in its own right, a Kingdom in its own right and a nation in its own right.

      Any other claims are Westminster propaganda and brainwashing except it could be claimed that The United Kingdom is, perhaps. and only very loosely, a Nation.

      Let me illustrate that the whole concept of the United Kingdom as either a single unified country or a single unified Kingdom a as total a wrong concept.

      The European Union has 28 member states but neither the European Union as a government nor and any individual member state ever claims that the EU is either a unified state or a unified country.

      Neither does any one of those individual states nor even the European Union as a whole ever claim the EU is a single unified nation. They all remain individual states, countries or kingdoms within a union of states, countries or kingdoms.

      Now read the title of, “United Kingdom”, again and then look at the treaty that formed it – there are no mentions of state, country or nation in reference to the resultant United Kingdom in the entire document.

    68. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      george wood at 2.18

      Michelle Thomson’s business practices were entirely acceptable. Did you swallow the Daily Record distortion on this issue?

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      You’ve gotta laff ain’t you? Like a load of restless fighters before the battle, sharpening our teeth and nails on each other, getting the adrenalin surging, the ready words errr, ready, the blood pumping, where’s the enemy now then? Hopefully it’ll all kick off soon, or we’ll all be just blood and skin and splatterings of vital organs. Clean up on aisle 2.

      Meanwhile the SNP are actually improving their website bit by bit, long way to go yet though. Here’s the latest highpoints of the week:

      “Scotland’s A&Es hit their target”

      “Scotland’s population has hit a new record high”

      “Edinburgh and Glasgow were ranked among the top cities in the UK for tech innovation”

      “Scotland has been ranked in the top ten countries in Europe for palliative care”

      The opening of the Queensferry crossing is under 4 weeks away!”

      “Scotland welcomed the world as the Edinburgh festivals kicked off – for the 70th time”

      https://www.snp.org/in_case_you_missed_it

      plus these:

      https://www.snp.org/improving_our_rail_services

      https://www.snp.org/freedom_of_movement_why_it_matters_and_where_political_parties_stand

      Disclaimer: I am non-aligned, not an SNP member, though I haven’t had time to put my resignation letter together yet.

    70. heedtracker says:

      gordoz says:
      6 August, 2017 at 4:21 pm
      @heedtracker

      So you condone telling tales via the state media as good practice ? Good for you, (short career in politics ahead methinks).

      Stop putting words in my great big gob. I am saying, shut up and get stuck in, in real time, not virtual reality.

      Wanna dance?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfhLieXpX0c

      The King was Scots you know:D

    71. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      colin alexander at 3.50

      Colon Alexander. Not impressed and considerable scepticism about his motives. (The use of colon was a mistake,of course. A colon is usually full of shite).
      The SNP came from about 28% of support to independence to within a whisker of achieving it against a barrage of unionist distortion and misinformation across the whole media, printed and broadcast continuously. Those who try to tell us the SNP didn’t do well are lying.

    72. colin alexander says:

      Dr Jim said:

      6 August, 2017 at 4:04 pm

      “Where was independence before the SNP panicked the Inglish into devolution”.

      Aye I agree, but that was when the SNP stood on a manifesto that they would declare independence if they won a majority of MP seats in a general election.

      Fast forward to 2015: 56 out of 59 seats WM and 50% of the popular vote. And it achieved NOTHING.

      Fast Forward to 2017:

      The SNP told people: “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster”.

      A direct quote from the SNP’s own literature. A Unionist slogan.

    73. Dan Huil says:

      I wonder what Tezza Mayhem is dreaming up on her wee hiking holiday? Wouldn’t be surprised if she decides to stay there. Meanwhile the EU continues to run rings around Westminster britnats. Coming soon: A united Ireland and Scotland with its independence regained.

    74. colin alexander says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      The SNP DID NOT bring us to within a whisker of independence.

      They result was 10% gap. Closer than expected, but following the decision of the SNP to accept Dave Cameron’s demand that the question should be YES or NO to indy ONLY, no Devo-Max / Home Rule or anything else on the ballot paper. We got NOTHING for coming a close second.

      Okay not true: we got Smith, EVEL and a worthless Sewel Convention written down. The booby prizes. Worse than nothing.

      And the SNP did not campaign for independence: a UK Monetary Union and EU membership is not independence.

      What it did campaign for: was Parliamentary / political sovereignty for Scotland within two Unions.

      And I 100% totally agree that was something worth voting AYE for compared to WM domination within the EU.

      I campaigned for it and voted for it. I took all the unionist abuse for the year / 18 months of campaigning that I did, so your insults are old hat and water off a seasoned YES campaigner’s back.

      As a seasoned YES campaigner I know the difference between a Union and Independence. As a seasoned YES campaigner so should you.

    75. Robert Peffers says:

      @gordoz says: 6 August, 2017 at 1:09 pm:

      “When will SNP politicians learn ? Never go to the media in times of troubles (ever) especially the BBC – they are not your friends and will distort your words or motives at every opportunity. “

      How long will it take for you to see the truth and NOT what the media tells you is the truth, gordoz? In fact you are showing you have swallowed whole the Britnat propaganda.

      In this case Mrs Thompson was NOT an SNP politician when she first took herself to the media with her case. She had denied herself that privilege when she, (for the very best of reasons), resigned the SNP Parliamentary Whip.

      She went to them as an independent MP and thus as an ex-SNP Member of Parliament and an ex-Member of the Scottish National Party.

      I’m unaware if she has renewed her membership of the party as yet but it has been made clear she will be welcomed back by both the SNP Westminster Group and the wider SNP party membership.

      Her new approach to the BBC and media is also now made as an individual and not as a party member.

      None of which detracts from the high regard I hold for the lady. She is a victim of Westminster and media Britnat corrosive nationalism.

    76. Rock says:

      “the Sunday Herald giving a glowing write-up to idiot Tory MSP Annie Wells while savaging sections of the Yes movement yet again”

      Buy The National to keep its elder sisters, The Herald and The Sunday Herald alive.

    77. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “The anti independence Sunday Herald also gives space to Ross Greer with a particularly stomache churning holier than thou load of pious irrelevance.”

      How much did its sister paper, the “independence supporting” The National, pay you to write an article for it?

      If you are paid, you have a vested interest in lobbying for it on this blog day in and day out.

      Fortunately, less than 8,000 independence supporters are gullible enough to fund it.

    78. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I am becoming concerned by the attacks on Peter Murrell particularly by those who claim to be our friends.

      Our”friends” do not attack other friends on public forums and those who do merely give ammunition to our enemy.

      Peter’s commitment to independence is without question and he has served the cause and the SNP for decades selflessly. He was in the working leadership of the SNP long before he became our FM’s husband and long before she became our FM and leader of the SNP.

      I am absolutely sure that our FM has been able to keep up the almost unbelievable level of activity because of the support she has had from Peter Murrell.

      It is our enemies who have most to gain from destablising us.

    79. wull2 says:

      MT is better off outside the SNP, that way she might get fair coverage from the MSM when she sues them, other than former SNP bad stories.

    80. Rock says:

      george wood,

      “It was her business practices that were difficult to defend, which meant the SNP couldn’t back her. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.
      It depends on where your moral compass is how you view her business practices.”

      Well said.

      Rock (6th October 2015 – What we’re told and what we know)

      “Thomson’s firm kept £24,000 out of the £75,000 proceeds as per the speculative agreement between the Wrights and Thomson’s firm where both were trying to make a quick buck.

      The problem for me is after independence we will not get a fair and just society if the likes of Thomson, “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” have any influence.

      We don’t want their type of capitalism in Scotland.

      I want the SNP to be centre left and to steer right clear of the likes of Thomson.”

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McE H
      The SNP has grown from 25,500 to 125,000, but hasn’t taken advantage of the extra money to split functions. It still has the organisation of a small resistance party rather than that of a hugely supported Governing party. It should for instance not have ministers with full party responsibilites, and should be able to have PM in full support of NS, rather than having to be in charge of the party as well.

    82. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fairliered says: 6 August, 2017 at 1:32 pm:

      “Gordon, the SNP did have another option. They could have supported Michelle Thomson and attacked the BBC.”

      Sheesh! Talk truth, Fairliered. The SNP had no other option than to NOT officially support Michelle Thomson.

      Neither the party nor the SNP Westminster group had anything to do with Michelle Thomson’s resigning the SNP Whip. It is in the SNP rules that she automatically took herself out of both the parliamentary SNP Group and as a party member.

      However, her colleagues in the parliamentary group unanimously supported her and told her she was welcome back and the wider party cannot be officially involved as by resigning the whip she was immediately no longer a party member.

      Some here though that she could have been a candidate for office while NOT being an SNP party member. She cannot – it is against party rules. I’ve no doubt she will, if she chooses, be returned to the official candidate’s list.

      Let me point something else to you. How would it have looked to other official candidates if the SNP leadership had supported a non-SNP member?

    83. HandandShrimp says:

      Buy The National to keep its elder sisters, The Herald and The Sunday Herald alive.

      Rock has it ever occurred to you that it it might be the Yoons buying the Herald that are keeping the National alive.

    84. colin alexander says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      The BBC and MSM have not gone away. If there were another indyref, the distortions and lies will happen again. Project Fear hasn’t gone away, we get it every day.

      Neither the SNP, nor Unionists can PROVE what an independent Scotland will be like, as it’s something in the future, so anyone can say anything and it can’t be totally disproved.

      So Unionists can portray independent Scotland as: “Greece without the sunshine”. They can say any rubbish to scare the living daylights out of the electorate and they don’t need to prove it. They can’t prove it.

      Nobody can prove the future.

      Nobody has to live up to the claims in referendum campaigns. Lies and distortions are par for the course. Anything goes.

      Most voters are not Wingers or The National readers. They get their information from the telly and media.

      It’s almost impossible for the average public to get unbiased, accurate information about the economic prospects of independent Scotland. The SNP don’t publish it. There is no YES campaign to publish it.

      Many people HATE politics, they aren’t interested in the SNP, Labour or the Tories. Political debates and economics bores them rigid.

      That’s what politicians are paid for, to deal with all the boring politics stuff.

      So, in my opinion, to repeat the Indyref strategy is to try and achieve independence the hardest way possible. Not impossible, I suppose, but not the best way of doing it.

      If the SNP or whoever stand for independence, then do it the old-fashioned, tried and tested way: An election.

      A vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.

      I’ve had enough of voting for SNP administration of WM devolution with the SNP serving their UK Tory Govt masters.

    85. Fred says:

      @ Scotty Dog, Stockbridge Syndrome mebbes! surely Thomson had been the architect of her own misfortune & after the muck thrown at her she had no chance of winning the seat whatsoever, she’s casting about to blame somebody & it’s no her. The party’s vetting process must ensure that a prospective candidate has nothing in their private/business life which might embarrass them or the SNP itself? She claims to have suffered financially but Scotland’s independence should be an aim in itself & not a career move. I had some sympathy but……

    86. Undeadshaun says:

      Rock ive said this many times, but ill say it again.

      I see you a member of the 77th brigade who posts here to sow discord and try and affect readers of wings.

      Well ken wit, it aint working!

    87. Proud Cybernat says:

      When the starting gun is fired on IndyRef2, all the angst and discord that is being sown by the British State’s agent provocateurs (we know you’re there) will evaporate like snow aff a dyke. They are simply trying their damndest to stop the band getting back together.

      It’s no’ gonnae work. I suspect they know that but hey, things are close on desperate for them now as they try and try and try to deflect from the Brexit motherofallclusterphux that is about to befall this country and ruin it economically for the next 30 years.

      Hate to break it to ya spooks – you’ll fail. Nothing more certain. And you’ll fail for the very simple reason that there is nothing so powerful and so unstoppable in the world as that of an idea whose time has come.

      It’s INDY TIME.

      And before you go, spooks – British Nationalism is a’ Union Jack and nae knickers.

    88. Breeks says:

      “The story of how the government got itself into this position is no secret. It began with a loss of nerve as the Scottish Nationalist Party gained a few seats and a lot of publicity as a result of purely local discontents in some areas of Scotland”.

      Really? Now why should “local discontent” cause any loss of nerve with the UK government? Precisely what were they afraid of?

      … Unless of course the UK government was much more in tune and alert to the danger of the sleeping giant that is Scottish popular sovereignty.

      Sorry people, I just cannot “un-see” the definitive importance of sovereignty. NOTHING can be considered constitutionally permanent, competent, or legitimate until this founding principle of sovereignty has been rigorously addressed, and right now, nobody is even talking about it. It is a universal constant in each and every constitutional argument, and frankly it is absurd to be having any constitutional debate, discussion, negotiation or Independence referendum which brushes the issue of sovereignty under the carpet.

      Sovereignty is our No 9, the universal answer to every question. (For those that don’t know, if a number adds up to 9, it is divisible by 9. Try it. 3 x 9 = 27, 2+7 = 9. See it? 9, 18, 27, 36, 45, 54… the numbers all add up to 9.)

      I cannot for the life of me fathom the SNP’s reluctance to embrace the absolute certainty and universality of our Sovereignty. That does not mean charge at it like a bull in a china shop, but it does mean playing the game in the absolute certainty of victory. I just don’t see that clarity of belief in our Scottish Government. “Brexit” isn’t going change anything in strategic constitutional terms. Political terms maybe, a wee nudge in opinion polls hopefully, but constitutionally? Nope. Nothing is going to change.

      Sovereignty is the archetypal “exception to the rule” that everything is negotiable. Sovereignty isn’t.

      I truly wonder whether I’d be relieved and gladdened, or left in a fit of despair if every SNP member of both Holyrood and Westminster was to write down their definition of sovereignty and put it in a ballot box to be read out later in public. 63 Holyrood and 35 Westminster isn’t it? Why do I get the distinct impression we’d have 98 alternative and conflicting definitions? In the minds of our Independence Party, there should only be one definition, clear, concise and understood by all.

      See once the penny drops that we, the people of Scotland, ARE sovereign, then Independence is a moot irrelevance. There is no constitutional requirement to extricate our sovereignty from Westminster sovereignty, because the two were not, and could not ever be, combined into a single entity. We’re not so much living the dream as living the myth. After 307 years, its a pretty tiresome myth. And by the way, we’re going to the laughing stock too. Did your hear the one about the country that took 300 years to realise it was independent and then voted NO?…

      The UK in constitutional terms is a muddy dogs breakfast, and I think most would agree with that. The frustration, dispute and acrimony arises about how we, the people of Scotland, sort that mess out.

      The Scot Gov’s philosophy seems to be to accept the current contemporary narrative and “somehow” imbue the issue with constitutional significance. In short, in your strategy you take an issue of the day, and try to link it with a sovereignty which hasn’t been relevant for over 300 years. It’s difficult, and the task is never ending. Such and such is bad, but it will be better with Indy etc…

      My philosophy is just different. I am unimpressed by the contemporary narrative, because the Scotland’s constitutional world stood still 307 years ago, and hasn’t moved on since. In short, in your strategy, you take the absolute unalterable condition sovereignty as sacrosanct, and conclude that it’s the subsequent 307 years of constitutional absurdity which is bogus. Yes, it’s also difficult. It’s also unsettling and unnerving, because like in Back to the Future, 1707 is a watershed event which changes EVERYTHING that follows.

      Scotland’s sovereignty CANNOT be removed from Scotland’s people. Europe cannot do it. England cannot do it. Westminster cannot do it. Holyrood cannot do it. Even our own 2014 referendum which voted NO did not remove our sovereignty. If NOBODY can do it, then how was it “apparently” done? Take a seat for this bombshell revelation…. It WASN’T done.

      The 2014 Referendum had the right question, but the totally wrong context. If we’d voted YES, the skittles would all have fallen correctly, but the problem lay in the NO option, because the NO option, while incapable of removing our sovereignty, delivered a quasi-ratification of the status quo, but the same status quo which has no constitutional legitimacy.

      I’m sorry to say so, but for as long as we fixate on this constitutional mess being sorted out by a referendum, then however the cards fall, we still haven’t got to grips with what our sovereignty actually means.

      In 1976, I believe the Westminster Government knew exactly what Scottish sovereignty meant, and Westminster has been marching on the spot ever since waiting for the penny to drop here in Scotland. “For Chris sakes! Don’t provoke Scotland into examining their sovereignty of the game’s up!”

      They must be laughing up their sleeve at how dumb we are. Margaret Thatcher even trolled us about it, and we still didn’t see it. We are a sovereign people. We’re just to fecking stupid to understand what it means.

      Aye. Crack on Theresa. The Union is safe for now. For as long as the Scot’s are still chuntering on about a referendum, it means the dumb b’stards still haven’t worked out they don’t actually need one….

    89. heedtracker says:

      I had some sympathy but……

      But what Fred? its all put you off Scottish democracy and nation statehood no doubt.

      When you consider what the staggering kleptomaniacs in Westminster actually do, robbing everyone blind, did you know that the City has extracted over £700 million from the Royal Mail so far? for example Fred.

      THey got the RM for cheap too, and Osborne flogged it all to his best buds, who made an instant mega fortune. Osborne’s best man or vice versa made nearly £30 million on the Royal Mail deal alone, or his hedge fund did.

      But none of this matters does it Fred. An SNP MP lawyer buys a couple of cheap houses for cheap and all you guys get all holier than thou, sucking on your holier than teeth, widdling all over Scotland with your holier than thou SNP bad nonsense.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/clive-lewis/royal-mail-sale_b_12500394.html

      Jump in anywhere you like Fred.

      “The Post Office was split from the profitable Royal Mail business in order to pave the way for privatisation – and all too predictably it is now at crisis point. This year alone it is shedding 2,000 jobs and closing down flagship branches across the country.

      Similarly, in a privatised Royal Mail 11,000 jobs have been lost, a fifth of its mail centres have closed and 5% of its delivery offices have shut with more due to follow. These things are not just down to privatisation – but shareholders are exerting more and more influence to maximise their own profits.

      As a sign of these shifting priorities, while staff are constantly seeing their workload increase and face the threat of the pension scheme closing, Royal Mail is paying out dividends of £220m per year.”

      ooh but there’s something not right about that Michelle lassie, something a bit iffie…

    90. Ian McCubbin says:

      Always believed I was a bit freaky. But if that were written now would be laughed out of even a yoon paper.

    91. wull2 says:

      I like the saying:
      Proud Cybernat “British Nationalism is a’ Union Jack and nae knickers.”

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @george wood says: 6 August, 2017 at 2:18 pm:

      ” … It was her business practices that were difficult to defend, which meant the SNP couldn’t back her. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.
      It depends on where your moral compass is how you view her business practices.”

      Absolute Britnat, Propaganda pish, george wood.

      There was absolutely nothing whatsoever immoral or illegal about the lady’s business practices.

      No one was made worse off by them. In fact absolutely everyone, including the alleged, (by the totally immoral media), victims made a profit from that business.

      In fact Rev Stu did an article to that effect with the profits figures made by all parties involved, (including the really greed driven claimed victims).

      No one went to these so called victims and coerced them to place their properties for quick sale by the several companies who, at that time, were doing the quick buy & sell deals with property.

      Those so called victims highlighted by the media were in financial difficulties and could not sell their property. They approached the company. The company took over their hard to sell property and had a lawyer arrange loans to cover not only the second mortgage but a sum to cover renovations.

      The, “Victims”, not only got their property sold but had their outstanding mortgage cleared and made a profit on the deal also.

      The bank got a quick return on their loan, the lawyer got paid for his work, the renovators made a profit and so did the Mrs Thompson’s company. Another empty property was occupied by a new, probably first time buyer, who was seeking a new home.

      Who was it you imagined were harmed?

    93. F.Meek says:

      Take heed! & re-read my post! no SNP criticism in it! What’s wrang with this lassie is that she now seeks to damage the SNP!

    94. Petra says:

      I’ve been thinking about the Michelle Thomson case and wonder if there’s more to this than meets the eye. When Nicola Sturgeon was faced with the barrage of abuse about Michelle Thomson from Dugdale and Davidson at Holyrood (October 1st 2015) Ruth Davidson started to outline a number of dates in relation to the timeline of reports and investigations (where did SHE get the info from?).

      I’m on my IPad so can’t post the YouTube video or list the dates but what she did mention was that Police Scotland and the Crown Office had been involved since July 2014. Davidson then put it to Nicola that she must have been aware of this. Nicola said no, the first that she knew about it was when it was reported by the Sunday Times (September 2015), as was the case with Davidson in fact. Michelle Thomson has also stated that she never discussed the issue with NS. Between one thing and another, I’m sure that NS is not lying about that and if I’m right why did Michelle Thomson NOT inform NS etc but rather put them in the position of being hit with this bombshell from the Media / Ruth Davidson? Did the fact that the Police / Crown Office had been involved for 14 months prior to her knowing anything about it play a part in her having to distance herself / the party from the situation / not getting involved for legal reasons. And did it contribute to a loss of faith in Michelle Thomson?

      Holding back information for at least 14 months also makes it a bit of a mockery for Michelle Thomson to say that she wasn’t supported by Nicola Sturgeon. In her words maybe Nicola ‘panicked’ when she found out. The whole situation just beggars belief.

      If anyone is interested it’s on YouTube – First Ministers Questions re. Michelle Thomson – Scottish Parliament 1st October 2015. 10:32 minutes in.

      ………………………………..

      @ Mike Cassidy T 12:47pm ….. “Moonman.”

      I was just reading through the article that you posted Mike and see that ‘the AFMP was set up to help MP’s ejected from the Commons at elections to help cope with “becoming suddenly unemployed” and the “real blow” of losing touch with friends in Westminster.’

      They’ll not be suffering from a sense of isolation or ‘sanction anxiety’ then?

      Tighten your belts folks. Better Together folks. Aye right! We’re being conned right, left and centre.

    95. heedtracker says:

      F.Meek says:
      6 August, 2017 at 6:07 pm
      Take heed! & re-read my post! no SNP criticism in it! What’s wrang with this lassie is that she now seeks to damage the SNP!

      Aye well you just get on with thumping that tub then.

      She’s been an SNP member since her teens, watched an endless parade of scumbag tories, red and blue, go mental on everything and anyone that gets in their way, endured endless BBC Scotland gimp attack propaganda and she actually DID stand against them, but what ever works for you though.

    96. Rock says:

      HandandShrimp,

      “Rock has it ever occurred to you that it it might be the Yoons buying the Herald that are keeping the National alive.”

      No, it hasn’t because I am not an idiot.

    97. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “There was absolutely nothing whatsoever immoral or illegal about the lady’s business practices.”

      Thomson’s firm kept £24,000 out of the £75,000 proceeds as per the speculative agreement between the Wrights and Thomson’s firm where both were trying to make a quick buck.

      In addition to insisting on being “British” even after independence, are you a big fan of Thatcherite capitalism?

    98. heedtracker says:

      No, it hasn’t because I am not an idiot.

      Yes you are. You know full well the National’s a tiny paper/part of a giant media corp, one of the biggest in the west too.

      Its not that youre a phoney Rock, its that youre such a bore. Not as boring as Colin A but jeez, you guys really need to try harder.

    99. Alex Clark says:

      @Petra

      Glad you brought the thread back on topic because this will be in tomorrows papers as I’m sure it will later too, whether this week or next or the one after.

      I’ve already said that MT has a right to be aggrieved but that her anger should be directed as those responsible for her being smeared and that is not the SNP or their leadership. It is the media that she has ran to today and now they are using her comments to attack the SNP and by implication, those that support Independence.

      Washing your dirty linen in public is not the done thing if you truly support the aims and goals of the party you were elected to represent now is it? Her beef is with the media or it should be but now her “exoneration” is being used as an attack on Nicola Sturgeon.

      Not very clever by MT after stating she would take time to consider her situation and so this is not something I support her on.

      On another note.

      All threads go Off Topic, it is natural during discussion between so many different people with differing views that it should. Some threads though go onto maybe a more important topic generally because something might have just been announced or an important event has happened unexpectedly and we all discuss this new issue. That’s to be expected.

      Other threads such as this one go off in all directions, we had a troll fest from about an hour ago and the thread was staggering about drunk without any coherent discussion. It was deflected away from the main points and this is what is meant to happen and is why you shouldn’t feed the trolls.

      For them, job done and big smiles on their coupon. Don’t feed the trolls.

    100. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Yes, it is strange. Certainly if there was anything to show and tell, MT should have done it and let the vetting panel do its stuff. Then she would have been working completely within the rules. I also don’t agree that the treatment of her, Nat McG and Chris Law was sexist. It was different types of complaints, Law’s was over the Spirit of Independence referendum campaign costs, and was cleared up in 4 months.

    101. george wood says:

      To Robert Peffers, Dave McEwan Hill & Fairliered I was wrong and I apologise for my post regarding Michelle Thomson.

    102. indy says:

      Calm done folks

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 6 August, 2017 at 4:05 pm:

      re – “I have seen that word Graun many a time. By that do you mean The Guardian? as I honestly don’t know.”

      The plain and simple truth of that matter is simple.

      Back in the days when skilled workers had to be lightning fast assembling little lead metal blocks in frames to, “compose”. the pages of the newsprint media for the presses it was common for these, “compositors”, to get the right letters in the wrong order within words set in the frame. (Which itself is another saying from old newspaper compositing days, “to be put in the Frame”).

      The claim was made by a rival newspaper baron that the Guardian once even got its own title wrongly composited as, “The Grauniad”.

      The joke, if it was a joke, stuck and is the reason they still get called, “The Grauniad”.

      Sae noo ye aa ken, div ye no.

    104. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “You know full well the National’s a tiny paper/part of a giant media corp, one of the biggest in the west too.”

      It is the sister paper of the poisonously anti-independence The Herald.

      Sales of The National help to spread the overhead costs of The Herald.

      8,000 @ 70p means an extra £5,600 in the pot each day.

      There is no shortage of anti-independence papers.

      If The National flogs itself as “independence supporting” then it should have WOS style articles as front page headline news every day.

      “Objectivity” is simply an excuse to give even more space to unionists.

    105. heedtracker says:

      In addition to insisting on being “British” even after independence, are you a big fan of Thatcherite capitalism?

      Snatcher Thatcher was the saviour of the English oligarchy Rock, the empress of planet toryboy, saving the great British oligarch kleptomaniacs, for generations to come. Snatcher Thatcher’s oligarchy sailed through the City crash but they have been shaken by Scottish democracy.

      Yes they do need the great fraud on Scotland that is the BBC Scotland gimp network but ultimately, they can be confident they can stamp out Scottish democracy too.

      And youre here too Rock, to do youre little bit for the great UKOK oligarchs.

      Big deal, the great tragedy for the lefties in the shithead oligarch is of course Labour and SLabour, fabulous liars and troughers to the last, elected to do right by the working people of this farce union, turned out to be just the same as the blue tories, just with much much more tory bullshit involved, because you have to really.

      But lets all monster a single SNP MP, ex SNP MP and the one rag on Scottish newstands that is not in fact, a UKOK oligarch’s wet dream of Britishness.

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      The thing about any MP is that they represent their party, but the party has also put then in the posistion of a very public profile. Perhaps the party should work on two levels – withdraw the whip from the MP to disassociate the party itself from any allegations, but support the individual who has more exposure and more risk of allegations, than if they were a private individual. Particularly with the SNP on whom it’s open season.

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      Yea, that independence supporting National. A couple of headlines from saturday:

      “Experts say EU nationals could deliver a Yes win – but warn they’re likely to lose their vote if indyref2 is held AFTER March 2019”

      “Our step-by-step guide to setting up a Yes Hub in your area – by a group that did”

      Nothing to do with Independence there then, unless you’re thick as two short aircraft carriers laid end to end.

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      On that subject of losing the EU nationals vote after March 2019 by the way, It’s surprising who supports “free by 23” until you think of the significance of that – a ref AFTER 2019. Be afraid, be very afraid. A simple great-sounding insidious message “free by 23” designed to lull and lose the Ref – or even the chance of ever having one perhaps after the Holyrood elections in 2021.

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says: 6 August, 2017 at 4:09 pm:

      ” … for goodness sake SNP you are in power for now so use it against those who would deny us our freedom deeds not words.”

      Utter anti-SNP pish!

      First of all broadcasting is a reserved matter.

      Second the BBC and the Westminster Establishment’s rich backers own the print medaia and they suppress anything the SNP might attempt to do. You can present as many press releases as you have time to write but you cannot make the media publish/broadcast them.

      Third the broadcasters almost always have the unionists in the studio and the SNP/indy support on a monitor that strangely always has a far longer delay than even the satellite links with Australia when when the indy person is in another Scottish studio booth.

      fourth there is the strange fact that there are many more technical hitches that cut out key bits of what the indy persons are trying to say and also that the people in the studio can be primed by the presenters as to what they will be asked.

      fifth then there is the fact that there is now no such thing as an actual LIVE broadcast. There is a built in digital delay between the actual broadcast and the signal going out from the aerial. Notice how they can beep out a, “sweary wird”. Now ask yourself if you were talking to someone who swore could you react to a word already said to beep over it?

      You are talking anti-indy bollox and you probably know it.

      Beware the enemy within.

    110. heraldnomore says:

      Aye, I see the night shift’s started early, so I’ll away and decide just how many copies of our Indy paper I’m going to buy and distribute tomorrow. G’night friends, enjoy the trolling if you can stomach it.

    111. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 6 August, 2017 at 4:12 pm:

      ” … and right on Q! What would you suggest Bliar?”

      Same as Blair always does, heedtracker. Sweet Fanny Adams.

    112. Fireproofjim says:

      Heedtracker
      Yes the Royal Mail sell off was a financial scandal, but worst of all was the sale of Britoil to BP at a knock down price by Maggie Thatcher’s Tories.
      BP has made billions from these assets but, worse than that, Britoil’s right to take a share in any oil field was thrown away. This was worth countless billions over many, many years. It is just what Norway’s Statoil have always done and their oil fund is almost $2 trillion.
      It’s called the Union dividend. (But only for the Tories City friends).

    113. Moonlight says:

      I feel it would have been easier for all to understand if post 1707 the UK had been named the United KingdomS. Nothing to stop us using the term for more clarity.

    114. heedtracker says:

      Same as Blair always does, heedtracker. Sweet Fanny Adams.

      How many WoS btl commenters really have achieved what Scots like Michelle Thomson have, for Scotland.

      She’s gone into battle with the whole UKOK red and blue tory creep show, beeb gimps especially, they’re the lord of rings Dark Lord Morgoth, if you’re into that:D

      She’s paid a really heavy price and its one thing for tory media gimps and the yoon trolls to use it all btl, but watching YES whiners go after her too, is not a pretty sight but that’s UKOK politics for you.

      Its SO easy to sit and watch the brave ones, to be a passenger

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTxXzHWFgn4

    115. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 6.38

      “8,000 @ 70p means an extra £5,600 in the pot each day.”

      God help us, I don’t know why I bother replying to such utter pish.

      Of the 70P cover price onthe print edition appx 50% goes to Menzies or whichever distributor is involved in putting it round the country. Out of the remaining small sum there is the cost of printing a full colour 40 page newspaper (which allows about a half pence a page) which includes paying a core of journalists and political commentators and which then has to be proofed which is also to be paid for. There are some small advertising revenues which will help a little.

      Any notion that this shoestring operation supports any other part of the vast Newsquest operation is infantile and absurd.

      But infantile and absurd is what we have come to expect from Rock

      I am very grateful indeed that the National has published a couple of articles from myself. I have not been paid for these and wouldn’t take any payment from it if it was offered. My gratitude to Callum Baird and his small dedicated nationalist team which produce it is unlimited

      My major gripe is all those Independence supporters who complain continuously about the biased media but don’t buy the National which if decently supported could expand and be a huge element in our battle for independence.

      My first port of call every day is the letters page in the National followed by firing up Wings on my computer.

    116. galamcennalath says:

      One ‘big picture’ political story is floating around today.

      That is the rumour that the UK would be willing to pay £30B to the EU, but with strings attached …. “Payments would only be made as part of a deal that included a trade agreement”.

      Firstly, that falls short of suggestions of what the EU expect. But secondly and probably more importantly, the EU see settlement of debts, citizens’ rights, and Ireland as initial talks to be well progressed before trade can be discussed.

      I seem to remember in the early days the UK attempting to tie citizens’ rights to trade. That didn’t get very far. Now they seem to be attempting to tie the payments to trade.

      This £30B could be bull shit, or it could be a leak to test response. If this really is the way the Tories are thinking then they are either daft as brushes (possible) or they are trying to sound reasonable so they can blame the EU when it all goes wrong.

      ‘Reasonable’ by Tory standards, with their genetically embedded entitlement and exceptionalism, would not seem reasonable from an EU standpoint.

      Personally, I believe the EU when it says “you must pay your outstanding obligations” and “the single market comes as a single package”.

      Covered as well as anyone here …

      http://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2105608/britain-ready-pay-40-billion-euros-leave-eu-report

    117. Petra says:

      The ‘seasoned Yes campaigner’ should know that the ‘gap’ in votes in 2014 wasn’t 10% at all. It was 6%.

      The SNP didn’t get 50% of the popular vote in 2015.

      It’s the norm for countries that break up to use the same currency at least for a transitional period.

      Nicola Sturgeon would be crazy to show her hand (currency, etc) before we have a date for a referendum and debates commence. Can you imagine trying to do your day job, deal with Brexit, a lying MSM, the fallout from people like MT, etc, etc, and battle with the MSM attempting to tear your future plans apart?

      You might be a seasoned campaigner, but one wonders for what side?

      ……………………………………………

      @ Dave McEwan Hill ……. “It is our enemies who have most to gain from destabilising us.”

      That’s clear to see from the number of ‘enemies’ that are milling around on here tonight. With around 18 months to go, at most, this will no doubt escalate to the point that Independence supporters will be lucky to get a word in.

      …………………………………………………..

      And then ‘Sovereinty’ rears it’s head again. Great tirades on it. We’ve all ‘got’ it. There’s one small problem and that is that not all of the so-called Sovereign people of Scotland want to leave the Union, a percentage? don’t want anything else devolved to the SG and around 10% actually want Holyrood abolished. So what is it exactly that one wants Nicola Sturgeon to do? Tell the Scots that they are sovereign? She’s done that already. Tell Westminster / the Queen? They know that already. With the practically overwhelming opposition / obstacles that she’s dealing with, what next?

    118. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says:6 August, 2017 at 4:44 pm:

      “The only reason I read that post (I stopped reading your posts about 18 months ago) is that you mentioned myself.”

      Oh! I’ll attempt not to take your high and mightiness’s name in vein again. I don’t give a rat’s arse if such anti-SNP mongers such as yourself scroll on by my posts. They may mention you but are not aimed at you. Now go figure out why.

      Such as you will forever criticise but never, ever, come up with any reasoned and logical constructive suggestions.

      Get this right – the independence movement is not the parliamentary political pro-indy groups. Neither is it the party employed office holders. The independence movement is factually far greater than even the grass-roots membership of the SNP.

      The indy movement is the pro-Scotland support of anyone who seeks Scottish independence. So when such as you complains about the SNP yet claims also to support independence there is an obvious question you needs answer :-

      WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PERSONALLY DOING ABOUT THE PROBLEM YOU PERCIEVE & COMPLAIN SO MUCH ABOUT.

      And do not continue attempting to make the spurious point that we all have the right to a different opinion than that of the SNP. It is bollox because most SNP members will have some differences from the official party policies. The thing is that it is NOT the parliamentarians or the party full time workers
      who make SNP policy decisions.

      It is the delegates, appointed by branch members, who attend National Conference. They do so in a proper democratic manned by a majority vote. If a member cannot accept that democratic choice then they have no option than to step down as a party member.

      If you want to criticise SNP policy then do so from within the party and not in an open forum. The truth being that your vote from within matters but if it fails to be the majority choice then you support the majority choice or get out of the party.

      You cribbing outwith the party means no more than that of The arch unionist, Theresa May who is expected to oppose the SNP and independence and is about as effective as the rest of Theresa’s anti-Indy opposition. No other party has a chance in hell of winning independence and only a political party can do so.

      No other party comes close to even getting a majority in Scottish politics.

    119. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      1976, eh? What a year. I almost managed to avoid it altogether.

      Just like Betty at the top, I’m OK with my freakdom.

    120. Alex Clark says:

      @heedtracker

      I must have missed where it was that the Yes whiners went after Michelle Thomson here on Wings.

      I’ve seen posts just like mine suggesting bringing the SNP leadership into her grievance with those truly at fault for the smears she underwent may have been a mistake. Her gripe is with the media, they printed the headlines and the insinuations.

      I’ll ask a simple question, do you think Nicola Sturgeon has anything to apologise for regarding the lies printed in the press about the “fraud case”. Do you think Nicola Sturgeon has anything to apologise for at all in this matter.

      I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone smeared as she was by the media would make her first point of call the very same media and throw in a wee attack on the leadership of the SNP.

      Is that the type of whine you mean, that instead of taking the case to those that slandered her she decided for reasons known only to herself to make the headlines all about Nicola Sturgeon and being married to Peter Murrell but that she had no knowledge of their relationship resulting in harm to the SNP or Independence cause.

      So why bring it up now then? It sounds like a personal beef to me with the FM and maybe rightly so. I’ve no idea but to take this to the media after they smeared you and cost you everything is in my view, well…Stupid.

      Would appreciate if you could deal with the whiners on Wings first then Nicola Sturgeons roll in all this and if she owes an apology to Michelle Thomson. Ta.

    121. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Peffers at 7.38

      Nice one, Robert. Obviously time for bed.

    122. Another Union Dividend says:

      On Michelle Thomson, once the media including the BBC started their anti-SNP witch hunt on someone who was never charged with any offence, even if SNP reinstated her the Lib Dems would have amplified their disgraceful 2016 Scottish Parliament campaign and Michelle would have been slaughtered if she had stood for re-election in May.

      On Labour and 1979 Devolution campaign, in WestLothian Trade Unions refused to distribute the STUC pro devolution newspaper and local Labour Party activists delivered leaflets campaigning against Devolution.

    123. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 6 August, 2017 at 4:52 pm:

      “Meanwhile the SNP are actually improving their website bit by bit, long way to go yet though. Here’s the latest highpoints of the week:”

      Big nail whacked on the head right there, yesindyref2.

      The problem is that these people constantly on the drip, drip, drip, complaining about the SNP not doing, or doing things wrongly, in the dripper’s views never seem to realise that the SNP have been, without success, always attempting to get their message out since Arthur Donaldson was a boy.

      Now that we have the internet and social media these same drippers are using it NOT to read the SNP party websites, or even the official Holyrood Government websites, because the drippers are far to busy reading, watching and listening to the BBC and unionist owned TV, Radio and newsprint outlets to have time for anything else.

      Which is why the SNP/SG have not really tried too hard to give too much precious time to their web presence. Why bother when those who supposedly support them, never mind those they want to win over, will not read them anyway?

      You do not need to read the SNP/SG websites too often and then return to Wings to plainly see these drippers have been sopping up the propaganda and do not know the truth.

      Which is why I will NOT remove the rest of your fine post.


      —————————————————
      “Scotland’s A&Es hit their target”
      “Scotland’s population has hit a new record high”
      “Edinburgh and Glasgow were ranked among the top cities in the UK for tech innovation”
      “Scotland has been ranked in the top ten countries in Europe for palliative care”
      The opening of the Queensferry crossing is under 4 weeks away!”
      “Scotland welcomed the world as the Edinburgh festivals kicked off – for the 70th time”
      https://www.snp.org/in_case_you_missed_it
      plus these:
      https://www.snp.org/improving_our_rail_services
      https://www.snp.org/freedom_of_movement_why_it_matters_and_where_political_parties_stand

      “Disclaimer: I am non-aligned, not an SNP member, though I haven’t had time to put my resignation letter together yet.”

      May I plead that you do not resign, yesindyref2?

      I’ve been an SNP supporter and mostly a member for most of my 80 odd years. I cannot recall when I ever agreed 100% with the party in all things. However, I am a democratic socialist and went with the majority vote on official policy as made at national conference by the grass-roots membership.

      Often, with hindsight, the membership were right and I was wrong. The point is that a member can only influence party policy from within the party and only the party can deliver independence.

    124. Capella says:

      Powerful speech by Chris Hedges on the American Fascist state – but could apply equally in the UK. Some truly ghastly insight into US abolition of human rights and due process of law. It’s what our imperial masters are bringing to us, just as soon as we’re out of EU Court of Justice. 1 hr 10 mins.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycuw9Cvh6W4

    125. Graeme J McAllan says:

      This Edinburgh “Freak” believes that our country of Scotland should control the resources of Scotland for the benefit of Scotland, and her residents 😉

    126. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fred says: 6 August, 2017 at 5:37 pm:

      ” … The party’s vetting process must ensure that a prospective candidate has nothing in their private/business life which might embarrass them or the SNP itself?

      You are just another YoonYoonist brainwashed Winger, Fred.

      There was absolutely nothing whatsoever shameful, morally or legally wrong, with her business. If you can explain what you imagine it was then by all means do so right hear and now.

      Let’s get this nailed once and for all.

      Tell us what you find was so embarrassing, illegal or morally wrong about her business, Fred.

      Mind you if you make wrong accusations you may find yourself being added to a long list of people and organisations that may possibly be sued by the lady – and rightly so.

    127. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 6 August, 2017 at 5:41 pm:

      ” … And before you go, spooks – British Nationalism is a’ Union Jack and nae knickers.”

      Mibbies it is a pair of Union flag knickers, Proud Cybernat.

    128. Petra says:

      There you go work going on behind the scenes. And thank goodness for the National. Anyone read about this elsewhere?

      CONSTITUTION / SOVEREINTY:

      I’ve just noticed the following post in the National from Robert Ingram, Administrator, Centre For Scottish Constitutional Studies.

      He says “There is considerable effort being put into a workable provisional Constitution for Scotland.

      In 2012 a draft Constitution for Scotland was submitted at Holyrood but received no support. Dr Elliot Bulmer, then Research Director at the Scottish Constitution Commission, mentored the original drafting team.

      Currently a small team of professionals from across Scotland are reviewing that draft Constitution, led by the non-partisan Centre for Scottish Constitutional Studies. When the review is complete the intent is to seek to convert to an Internet version and encourage National debate. The object of the review is to create an updated provisional Constitution for Scotland that can be readily understood, debated and agreed by the Scots before Scotland regains it’s Sovereignty.

    129. brewsed says:

      Re: Entomology of The Grauniad (up thread somewhere)

      Many years ago, in the 1970s I think, Private Eye (which had always referred to the Manchester Guardian as The Grauniad anyway) produced a lovely spoof copy complete with said title and many spoof articles in the style of the resident journalists – after which the name stuck. That was in the days of hot metal type and the London edition, which was an early edition sent up/down by train could contain errors corrected in later editions.

    130. BJ says:

      Michelle Mone didn’t disappoint me today in Pointless.

      All dolled up with nowhere to go but out the door. Answered one question and got it wrong. She even started to question Richard why was it wrong?

      Bye Bye Michelle

    131. colin alexander says:

      Petra said:
      6 August, 2017 at 7:36 pm
      The ‘seasoned Yes campaigner’ should know that the ‘gap’ in votes in 2014 wasn’t 10% at all. It was 6%.

      The SNP didn’t get 50% of the popular vote in 2015.
      —————————————————–
      COLIN ALEXANDER SAYS:
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/scotland

      SNP 56 OUT OF 59 SEATS>- VOTE SHARE SNP 50%

      ————————————————–
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results

      Scottish independence referendum ( Which was really was a Scottish parliamentary sovereignty with UK Monetary Union and EU political Union referendum):

      NO: 55.30%
      YES: 44.70

      A MARGIN OF 10.6%, not to be confused with swing from NO to YES required for Yes to win. A swing of 6% from NO to YES would have meant a result of: NO: 49.30% to YES 50.70%

      So, Petra, you are mistaken about the SNP vote share in 2015 and I am correct.

      Regarding, the indyref we are both right, we just described the result in different ways.

      The important matter either way: YES lost and Scotland lost out.

    132. Robert Peffers says:

      @F.Meek says: 6 August, 2017 at 6:07 pm:

      “Take heed! & re-read my post! no SNP criticism in it! What’s wrang with this lassie is that she now seeks to damage the SNP!”

      Well, F.Meek, I had rather a bad pain filled night and didn’t get to sleep until almost breakfast time.

      However, I did listen to Mrs Thompson’s interview while still in bed and having breakfast. I have rather a different interpretation of her aim during that interview. Mind you I have a great respect, and sympathy for, the much maligned lady.

      Mind you I also have long distrusted anything involving Garry Whitshisname. Even if he bids us good morning I tend to expect it will not be so.

      Unfortunately, because I was not up and about as usual I did not auto record whatever I listen or view on news and political matters and I refuse to use the BBC iPlayer since they claimed it was live broadcasting. How can a recorded broadcast be live?

    133. heedtracker says:

      Would appreciate if you could deal with the whiners on Wings first then Nicola Sturgeons roll in all this and if she owes an apology to Michelle Thomson. Ta.”

      Personally I actually dont give a shit about them, not one. What’s infinitely more interesting is the MT’s downfall is part of a far bigger and wider yoon campaign to take out the SNP permanently.

      Look at it all in the round. Endless BBC Scotland led monstering of everything SNP, included with the relentless monstering of everything Scotland, attacking national self confidence, injecting self doubt, self loathing, ofcourse with masses of rule Britannia shite.

      On top of that of all that, come election time, tens of millions are spent by the tories especially, specifically targeted SNP seats, with the most talented and prominent SNP MP’s, selected for er, deselection.

      Angus Robertson is a good example of yoon targeting and triangulation, of their anonymously funded vote NO vote tory gimp millions but we have lost the very talented, vocal and prominent Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. who also got the same treatment Thomson did. None of this is by chance.

      Torygraph roasters in particular had the task of taking out Tasmina.

      “12 May 2017 – The SNP is facing calls to suspend Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh as a candidate after it emerged she is the subject of a professional standards …”

      If you want to chunter on and on about what it is you think MT did to offend you that’s fine, but keep me out of it.

    134. Breeks says:

      Petra says:
      6 August, 2017 at 7:36 pm

      “And then ‘Sovereinty’ rears it’s head again. Great tirades on it. We’ve all ‘got’ it”.

      The tiresome thing isn’t your snidely wee remarks, or the fact you can’t even spell sovereignty, but the tedious fact you obviously haven’t “got it” at all. You’re not even close to getting it, but yet you’re happy to flap your gums calling people tractors, betrayers of Nicola, enemies of the state who need to have their names put on a list before they’re dragged out of bed in the middle of the night and taken away in a Black Maria, while all the time it’s YOU who doesn’t quite grasp what they’re talking about.

      “So what is it exactly that one wants Nicola Sturgeon to do? Tell the Scots that they are sovereign?”

      IF you actually understood sovereignty, you would understand that sovereignty is not only about what Nicola Sturgeon does or doesn’t do, but just as importantly what Theresa May and her Westminster Parliamentary sovereignty constitutionally CANNOT do. In the present circumstances, with Scotland about to dragged out of Europe against the democratically expressed will of the sovereign people of Scotland, that is sort of important, and a sort of line in the sand that is kinda immovable.

      And incidentally, might I enquire whether your own anti Royalist remarks about getting rid of the Queen have been sanctioned by Nicola and the SNP? Or is it your own personal campaign to undermine, damage and divide the YES movement in an acrimonious pre-referendum debate between republicans and royalists? Some people might even call it treacherous. Or is it instead just another shovel load of your SNP hubris, one rule for party gobshites, and a different set of rules for the proles who occasionally like to think for themselves and make a constructive contribution to the constitutional debate?

    135. Sinky says:

      This is well worth a read

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/08/05/oil-companies-making-more-at-50-per-barrel-than-they-did-at-100-per-barrel-yet-the-uk-government-is-not-taxing-them-is-this-a-ploy-to-undermine-the-case-for-scottish-independence-or-just-interlockin/

      According to Goldman Sachs, in Oil and Gas People:
      ‘Oil majors are raking in more cash now than they did in the heyday of $100 oil, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc. Integrated giants like BP Plc and Royal Dutch Shell Plc have adapted to lower prices by cutting costs and improving operations, analysts at the bank including Michele Della Vigna said in a research note Wednesday. European majors made more cash during the first half of this year, when Brent averaged $52/bbl, than they did in the first half of 2014 when prices were $109.’

      https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/14814/who-needs-100-oil-majors-seen-making-more-cash-at-50-goldman-says/

    136. Gfaetheblock says:

      This surprise at Thomson’s behaviour is somewhat surprising.

      She may think that she was complete exonerated, but the investigation did not proceed due to a lack of credible evidence.

      As a financial services professional, my opinion of her treatment of vulnerable customers by thomson’s firm was not acceptable, nor did it meet industry standards. Those commenting that it was I suspect are not involved in finance, debt management or citizen’s advice.

      She was sidelined by business for Scotland

      The issue the SNP have is with the quality of their vetting and the fact that they probably didn’t expect to win edinburgh west, which had a fairly popular sitting MP. They were right to distance themselves from her.

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      During Indy Ref 1 I probably looked at the SNP site just about every day – at the media release section to see what they wanted the media to pick up on. That often gave me material for my postings in the Herald along the lines of “But the SNP in their latest release have said …”. Or to prepare in advance what the latest story from the Herald was going to be spun as at 3.20 a.m. when the articles got published on the site (publishing time’s changed now). But that media centre’s basically disappeared in the new site, unless I’m missing it.

      No, I’m happier now I’ve effectively resigned, and feel more effective again. Doesn’t stop me taking the side of the SNP, but means I don’t feel reluctant criticising them, which puts me on the same wavelength as others – specially undecideds or soft noes who have some sympathy for Indy but don’t like the SNP.

      I take your point about working from within, someone posted that back in the Guardian back in 2012. Well, tried that in my limited way, didn’t and won’t work for me (you’ll have to take my word on that). Like others I can perhaps be more effective on the outside looking in, rather than inside looking out. I’ll still be voting SNP though, as things stand, and even after Indy I’d think. Overall they’re closest to my views by a long long way. They just ain’t perfect like wot I am!

    138. colin alexander says:

      Robert Peffers said: “only the party (SNP) can deliver independence”.

      How many elections have the SNP won by now?

      Is it: three Scottish Parliament and two UK General Elections? Over 10 years of power.

      So, where’s our independence? The SNP haven’t delivered independence at all.

    139. Robert Louis says:

      It is now blindingly obvious that their is an underhanded specific, well coordinated campaign via twitter ,facebook and so on, to try to stir and feed division within the YES movement.

      It is immensely sad, therefore, to see people for whom I once had respect, foolishly jumping in head first, either unwittingly or not. They should know better.

      Wise up people. London will do ANYTHING to end the desire for Scotland becoming a normal independent country, free of their grasp. Westminster has now had several years to put their pieces and managed ‘assets’ in place. Do not underestimate them. They are not in recess, they are not on holiday.

      We all should be smarter than to just foolishly join in. That is EXACTLY what London wants to happen.

      Remember this; Divide and conquer. The oldest trick in the book. That is how Westminster works. Partition, they often called it. They did it all around the world, with other countries they believed they ‘owned’. Now it is Scotland’s turn.

      FFS, DO NOT LET THEM WIN. And maybe take a good long hard look at those doing the stirring, and remember well. Pointing fingers and shouting does no good, it just feeds the fire. Just quietly remember their actions, and let it help you judge who to trust going forward.

    140. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Lots of rogues about now infiltrating all our sites. Here’s reminder of what Robert Burns thought of some among us

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWOJtHZu9E0&list=RDRWOJtHZu9E0

    141. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I put my last post up because that was what it used to be all about. Iit used to be about national self respect, pride, national confidence and who we are.

      We are now bogged down in arguments about currency,the price of a stamp after independence and Brexit.
      This is exactly where our enemies want us to be bogged down. They have the media.
      The only place they don’t want to fight us is on national pride and self respect. They are getting away with it.

    142. heedtracker says:

      As a financial services professional, my opinion of her treatment of vulnerable customers by thomson’s firm was not acceptable, nor did it meet industry standards.

      How so Gfaetheblock?

      Now you say youre a professional, so can we get some fact going here, not the usual mumbojumbo about the ethics of making money, in the housing market, as a conveyancing lawyer, who all do it, everyday, and where BBC 1 daytime, spend a fortune on grotty shows about how to buy a buggered house and make money from it.

    143. William Wallace says:

      @Colin A 9:12pm

      The SNP can’t deliver us independence as such. They can only deliver us the opportunity to vote for it, which they did. They can’t control how the people of Scotland vote in any independence referendum. That is up to the people of Scotland.

      The SNP are the only party that will ever deliver the opportunity to become an independent nation.

    144. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t ever agree with me @colin alexander I don’t want folk to get the idea you support independence when I know exactly what you are, and those like you

    145. Robert Louis says:

      Dave McEwan Hill at 924pm,

      Wholly agree with every word of your post. Sadly some in the indy movement falling into the trap, with some considerable speed.

    146. Alex Clark says:

      @heedtracker

      What’s the problem it was a simple question.

      If you want to chunter on and on about what it is you think MT did to offend you that’s fine, but keep me out of it.

      MT never offended me so and I made no such statement so I’ve no idea what it is your talking about when you say I’m chuntering on about here offending me. I get it, you were just making that up and was a wee joke of yours LOL.

      You were perfectly clear though about the Whiners here on Wings “going after Michelle Thomson”.

      I just asked you for an example of the Whiners so do you have one? Should Nicola Sturgeon apologise to Michelle Thomson and if so for what?

      Michelle Thomson in my view at least could have handled today better, why drag her grievance with the UK media into one involving Nicola Sturgeon and SNP leadership is beyond me.

      I believe she made a mistake to do that and we will see the results of that in tomorrows headlines no doubt. Why you could possibly think that my view such as it is was an “offence” to me I’ve not got a scooby.

      Gonna give me an answer about the whiners and if Sturgeon should apologise? Without any waffle. Just an answer. Ta.

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      What’s very interesting about that post by “Matthew Brown” in the Herald, is that the 20 or so named include most of us who have been having bitter arguments and accusing each other of being trolls.

      Perhaps it’s someone close to this blog, very very very close, trying to force us to have something in common apart from being Indy supporters (well, mostly), and that’s being named as “Paid Trolls”.

      Anyway, it’ll soon be time for us all to come together again, let bygones be bygones, and concentrate on just one thing:

      YES

    148. heedtracker says:

      Gonna give me an answer about the whiners and if Sturgeon should apologise? Without any waffle. Just an answer. Ta.

      You’re answering yourself.

    149. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 6 August, 2017 at 6:13 pm:

      ” … Ruth Davidson started to outline a number of dates in relation to the timeline of reports and investigations (where did SHE get the info from?).”

      I may be wrong, Petra, and I’m going on memory only, but I believe you may be a victim of the usual Davidson deliberate misdirection of facts that usually have a wee grain of truth hidden away from view.
      ” … what she did mention was that Police Scotland and the Crown Office had been involved since July 2014. Davidson then put it to Nicola that she must have been aware of this.”

      I believe what Davison was attempting to do was lead the audience to believe that the investigation she was referring to was into the lawyer and not into anything to do with Michele Thompson, or her business partner but only concerned the lawyer, one of several, her company had employed. I wonder if the wee, “Fat Controller”, also thinks every other person that used that lawyer were all also guilty by association.

      Both Police Scotland & the Procurators Fiscal have categorically stated that Michele Thompson was never under investigation at any time and Police Scotland also stated that Michele Thompson was never, at any time officially questioned.

      The entire investigations were first of all by the Scottish Law Society who were not investigating the lawyer for actual illegal actions but simply of breaking their own strict rules and guidelines. The Police, on the other hand suspected he had done something illegal. I’m not sure but I think he saw in fact charged but it had nothing to do with Michele Thompson who had gone, voluntarily, to the police to offer any help she could offer.

      In other words Davison was attempting, (and it seems successfully), to tar Michele Thompson as guilty by association. This is still reverberating in the corrupt and evil media who are still, quite wrongly, claimant the lady was, “Exonerated”, of any crime.

      Now excuse me as a pedant if you must but am I not correct that to be, “Exonerated”, you must first have been accused?

      Here’s the dictionary definition.
      ——————
      exonerated :-

      Adjective
      Freed from any question of guilt, acquitted.
      ——————

      You just cannot be acquitted of a crime you are not accused of. Nor of which someone else is either accused of or has been found guilty of having committed.

    150. Jim says:

      How about we stop talking about Ross Greer and wishing his Dad had a wank instead,

      He’s an ageist cumbubble and deserves no publicity; keeping quiet will probably annoy them more than anything else!

    151. Gfaetheblock says:

      Heedtracker

      The FCAs occasional paper 8 on vulnerable
      customers is a great starting point of you want to learn about this and current industry trends.

      https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/occasional-papers/occasional-paper-8-exec-summary.pdf

    152. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      You are right, Robert. The BBC went well over the line too. They originally suggested that “charges had been dropped”.

    153. Robert Peffers says:

      @george wood says: 6 August, 2017 at 6:36 pm:

      “To Robert Peffers, Dave McEwan Hill & Fairliered I was wrong and I apologise for my post regarding Michelle Thom”

      Thank you George, You’ll no be related to your namesake, “Wee Georgie Wood”, then?

      It takes a really big man to admit to being wrong and that makes you a big man in my book.
      Cheers!

    154. Alex Clark says:

      @@heedtracker

      I’m disappointed if that’s the best you can do. You make BOLD statements about whiners then the least you can do is back them up with evidence.

      Your a waffler, stick to the funny Gruniard stuff you can’t back up the rest.

    155. heedtracker says:

      Alex Clark says:
      6 August, 2017 at 9:45 pm
      @@heedtracker

      If you answer your own questions, what do you expect me to do.

    156. heedtracker says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      6 August, 2017 at 9:43 pm
      Heedtracker

      The FCAs occasional paper 8 on vulnerable
      customers is a great starting point of you want to learn about this and current industry trends.

      Cheap cop out. Its a very simple question, so again,

      “As a financial services professional, my opinion of her treatment of vulnerable customers by thomson’s firm was not acceptable, nor did it meet industry standards.”

      How so Gfaetheblock?

    157. Jock McDonnell says:

      Robert Louis wisely said
      ‘It is immensely sad, therefore, to see people for whom I once had respect, foolishly jumping in head first, either unwittingly or not. They should know better.’

      I’ve been reading this site for over 5 years & now many of the long term contributors are squabbling with each other.
      Eyes on the prize guys, don’t get gamed.

    158. Alex Clark says:

      In recent weeks Jordan daly has made BOLD statements, Angela Haggerty has made BOLD statements, Cat Boyd makes BOLD statements in support of Labour then today Ross Greer makes BOLD statements all about the injustice of it all and how the “lunatic fringe” are destroying the YES movement.

      No evidence, none whatsoever. All just wind and piss.

      So who are the “lunatic fringe” in the YES movement? I do not know because it has never been explained. I know though who are the most successful at moving people to support Yes and it is none of the above.

    159. Petra says:

      “You’re happy to flap your gums calling people tractors …. enemies of the State who need to have their names put on a list before they’re dragged out of bed in the middle of the night and taken away in a Black Maria.”

      Eh! I think you’re beginning to lose the plot. When have I ever mentioned listing people’s (enemies of the State) names? You’re mixing me up with someone else. I wonder who?

      Getting rid of the Queen? I’ve mentioned a post-Independence referendum on the subject, if desired. That’s treacherous? I thought that the Scottish people were Sovereign and more so entitled to an opinion.

      Oh and on the subject of Constitutional debate / Sovereignty check out the post at 8:41pm. There’s work being done on Nicola Sturgeon’s watch, so maybe you could think of calming down. Stop flapping your gums as you still haven’t answered my question and that is could you, instead of preaching, tell us in a few simple sentences how you would resolve the issue, practically, without causing a Civil War.

    160. heedtracker says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      6 August, 2017 at 9:43 pm
      Heedtracker

      The FCAs occasional paper 8 on vulnerable
      customers is a great starting point of you want to learn about this and current industry trends.

      Gave it a read. As a professional, do you think MT ripped off vulnerable people, is that what youre trying to say but somehow cant quite do it?

    161. Gfaetheblock says:

      You read that quickly.

      My opinion is that the customers showed clear signs of vulnerability, through ill health, financial literacy and stress of being unable to sell a property. The mortgage issuing organisation or Citizens advice would have provided balanced advice, whereas thomsons firm seem driven to maximise their profit, not by a duty of care to the customer. This is not illegal, but is not per the standards that firms operating in this segment should follow as per occasional paper 8 articulates.

      That is a clear response to you question, so after reviewing this, do you think she operated to industry standards, and to a standard you would want yourself or family members treated of in the stressful situation these customers did?

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 6 August, 2017 at 6:40 pm:

      ” … Perhaps the party should work on two levels – withdraw the whip from the MP to disassociate the party itself from any allegations … “

      Ah! yesindyref2, but that is exactly the point I’ve been trying to get across. The SNP never withdrew the Whip from Michele Thompson. Mrs Thompson, stating it was for the better good of the party, resigned the Whip.

      I have no idea if she had actually thought the results of that resignation through or not. However, it meant that she had automatically also resigned from the party as that is in the SNP rule book.

      So after she resigned the whip she was no longer an SNP member and could not be officially supported by the party. Unofficially, and unanimously, her former Westminster Parliamentary Group all offered her their unofficial support and I can only guess that Nicola decided it was chancing adverse unionist propaganda no matter if she showed unofficial support or didn’t offer unofficial support to a member who had resigned from the party.

      As we all know very well the Yoons will damn the SNP if they do or do not do something or other.

    163. heedtracker says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      6 August, 2017 at 10:02 pm
      You read that quickly.

      Thanks. You say, “The mortgage issuing organisation or Citizens advice would have provided balanced advice, whereas thomsons firm seem driven to maximise their profit, not by a duty of care to the customer.”

      Cant you be more specific? Its easy to smear TM, unless you know the detail.

    164. Dr Jim says:

      If I was a Brit in these times of Scottish resurgence how would I go about wrecking the ambitions of that resurgence, what would I do to stop the Jocks from uniting against my vision of Britishness and power

      Well I’m interfering in all their TV and newspapers so that I control all the content and lack of content of broadcasting they see and hear, I’ve got all my back room civil servants working on all my anti propaganda to heave at them,so what else can I do to crush them?

      Hmm, Ive had politicians from other countries tell them they’re stupid, I’ve had multi national corporations tell them to fear tragic consequences, I’ve even threatened them with the fear of Aliens attacking them at one point

      Oooh! I know, there’s this Interweb guy up there in Jockstrap land , Wings over something or other, real nuisance of a man and I haven’t done enough to ruin and discredit this guy

      Eh, Ruth Kezia get your minions together and start that Twittering Blogging thing going against this guys Website thing, what we’re looking for is total disruption and infighting, and while you’re at it make sure you put plenty of blame on Nicola Sturgeon for stuff, it doesn’t matter what stuff just get your army of disrupters slinging mud everywhere, some of it will stick and that’s what’s important

      Good, now I can relax on my walking holiday in Switzerland without worrying that Scotland will be thinking about how I’m destroying EVERYTHING because Scotland will be too busy fighting with itself

      I win!…. love Big Treeza xx and chums

      And the moral of the story?….well!

    165. shug says:

      Is it possible to work up a wee blue book (or key notes)explaining how London has abandoned Britain.

      H2 to access the SE
      Channel Tunnel for the SE
      M25 for the SE
      Crossrail
      Water
      The queen is QEII rather than QEI
      Scottish Regiments disbanded

      In this we emphasis that it is at the cost of the the whole of Britain. Liverpool neglected, NE of England neglected, Cornwall neglected

      The key message is it is time for Scots to take back control. We cant count of the Americans or the EU we have to take responsibility ourselves

    166. Alex Clark says:

      Some people type quickly too, almost if they read each others minds LOL

    167. Phronesis says:

      An excellent article on the failure of democracy across the British Isles. Time for the independence movement to get up and running led by the YES groups that represent citizens from all socio-cultural backgrounds of the political spectrum, and is mature enough to include the freaks and lunatic fringe. The goal is independence for Scotland – there is no Condorcet paradox.

      ‘Since the initial shock, the gap in favour of Remain has decreased and, now, stabilised. Only two YouGov polls support a majority in favour of Leave was right, the other eleven polls have all indicated that the will of the UK is that it should remain in the EU. Such unpalatable poll results have been left unreported or occasionally inaccurately reported…

      Finally, two groups, in particular, saw their exclusion from the electorate as undemocratic. According to NUS polls, 75 percent of the 16-18 age group felt they should have had a vote in the UK on Brexit (given its greater long-term implications than a general election vote). The 16-18 age group did have a vote in Scotland on independence and this referendum, many felt, was at least as important. Had the younger vote come out in force there is good evidence to suggest that the referendum result would have been different…

      In the second group, members of the Commonwealth (and Eire) who were resident in the UK were able to vote but other members of the EU resident in the UK were not able to vote. All EU residents of Scotland were eligible to vote in the Scottish Referendum but not in the Brexit Referendum. Clearly, if democracy is regarded as allowing those most affected by a decision to have a say in that decision, then this has not happened. With 2.9 million EU residents in the UK, it is likely that the majority would have voted for Remain and that too is likely to have reversed the decision…

      So the UK electorate, as a whole, has been consistently against Brexit and the Remain majority will increase year on year. All things being equal Remain will be the choice of the public by the end of 2021 whether the abstaining electorate is counted or not. Those who saw the vote as a protest against poverty are now experiencing the thin end of the wedge of inflation from a falling pound and slow, drip-like movement of multinational companies out of the UK. Some Remain voters have thrown in the towel, accepting what they see as inevitable. The latest YouGov poll suggests that more people in the UK believe Brexit is bad, rather than good for jobs, will result in less influence in the world, is indifferent for the NHS, and will make the UK economy worse. A falling economy is bound to bite and reverse some of the enthusiasm for Leave and the effect of that will simply be to consolidate the trend against Brexit…

      Sadly nothing less than a second, fairer referendum could redress the unfairness felt by the exclusion from the electorate of both the 16-18s and the non-UK EU residents. This all paints a very sorry picture of the effectiveness of UK democracy. Brexit is not the will of the people in the UK. It never has been. Had all the people spoken on the day the result would almost certainly be what the pollsters had predicted, and what the UK, according to the polls, still wants, and that is to Remain’

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

    168. Graeme McCormick says:

      In a perfect world a substantial majority would vote for Independence out of personal and national self respect. Sadly out of a misguided notion of self interest many “haves” did not vote Yes because they have a comfortable lifestyle while others less fortunate feared that their public social security would not continue.

      We in the YES Movement must address these people’s concerns because they don’t have the passion we have for Independence.

      However we should not despair or descent into arguments within our YES family. Instead we must live as if we were already independent, make choices on the basis do they advance the cause of Independence and most importantly the Scotties Government needs to be more imaginative in its extensive influential and legislative powers which can mitigate, compliment and replace all Westminster reserved powers .

      By doing so now it can create the gulf between us and the rUK and provide the ‘Haves” and the “Have-nots” with the comfort that their lives are better and that the rUK is a drag on their aspirations.

    169. Lochside says:

      What is going on here?…calm down please and don’t let the trolls create dissension.The backbiting and personal invective confirms what the Unionist black ops are aiming for…don’t assist them!

      Michelle Thomson’s apparent unhappiness with Nicola Sturgeon being shared with the Dependency media is disappointing. From my point of view it confirma a dislocation between many SNP politicians and the nationalist grassroots social media such as WOS. If she was aware of the support on here to willingly crowdfund her to counterattack the vipers whom she has naively confided in, she might have reconsidered providing yet another delivery of an own goal to the Dependacy jackals.

    170. Marcia says:

      Shug

      I would like a Wee Blue Book highlighting all the projects around London that we are contributing to.

    171. cearc says:

      Wee Rossy Greers’ party got 150,426 regional votes (13,172 constituency) in the last HE.

      Looks distinctly ‘fringe’ when compared to Wings ‘unique visitor’ numbers.

      How irritating for him!

    172. heedtracker says:

      “Those who saw the vote as a protest against poverty are now experiencing the thin end of the wedge of inflation from a falling pound and slow, drip-like movement of multinational companies out of the UK”

      Check out Harry here. He’s a Leaver but he could go bust. He wanted UK Sovereignty, just like what Colin A does.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-migrant-workers-fruit-farm-harry-hall-hunter-partnership-bbc-radio-4-today-a7802381.html

    173. Bill McLean says:

      We’re at again. For weeks now there have been ongoing arguments between those who ostensibly want the same outcome for Scotland – Independence. Our sworn enemies, the unionists here and beyond, know we are a disputatious lot and they are busily fostering divide and rule, which they have done successfully in other unfortunate places, on a number of sites! I’m afraid we are falling for it big style and even our most authoritative posters are being dragged down. If you want our rightful Independence back you are going to have to be cuter. Start by not attacking each other. Those you consider to be trolls ignore. Post positively. Post about the advantages that would accrue to our great wee country when we regain our independence. Confound them by not confounding ourselves. Please.

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @brewsed says:6 August, 2017 at 8:47 pm:

      R“Entomology of The Grauniad (up thread somewhere)
      Many years ago, in the 1970s I think, Private Eye (which had always referred to the Manchester Guardian as The Grauniad anyway) “

      Thing is, brewsed, while your information is correct, Private Eye was not even been thought about and the term, “The Grauniad”, had been in use a long time before the 1970s.

    175. heedtracker says:

      Lochside says:
      6 August, 2017 at 10:20 pm
      What is going on here?…

      Thought it might er, stimulate you Lochside:D

    176. Gfaetheblock says:

      Heedtracker,

      You have convinced me, MT has acted with integrity through out the whole period, she was just unlucky to have worked with a lawyer who has been struck off. Everything in the press is lies, and she has victimised by the MSM. So should the SNP apologies, I am lost now?

    177. heedtracker says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      6 August, 2017 at 10:34 pm
      Heedtracker,

      You have convinced me, MT has acted with integrity through out the whole period, she was just unlucky to have worked with a lawyer who has been struck off. Everything in the press is lies, and she has victimised by the MSM. So should the SNP apologies, I am lost now?

      I’m not trying to bully pulpit you Gfaetheblock. You can see how hard the yoons and the trolls are using this to monster the SNP and MT.

      You say,

      “As a financial services professional, my opinion of her treatment of vulnerable customers by thomson’s firm was not acceptable, nor did it meet industry standards.”

      All I am asking you is the how and why you think this? Posting a link to your profession’s ethical guidance publication and then telling me to make my own mind up is hardly debate worthy, is it?

      Go for it, don’t be coy, give it shit Gfaetheblock. Tell us as a fellow professional of MT’s, the how and why she broke the ethical codes you linked to.

    178. Alastair says:

      MT going to BBC for interview is like going to Sweeney Todd for a wee tidy up.

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yes she resigned the whip herself, but claims she was pressurised to do it. Well, perhaps. She also claims she couldn’t get to talk to Sturgeon. For me, that’s one too far. It would have been easy for her to say – if Sturgeon herself suggests I resign the whip after I put my case to her, then I shall do so. So for me there’s an element of doubt.

    180. Simon Curran says:

      I don’t post too often. I’m sure there are many more better informed than me but some of us just need to wise up. There is only one prize that unites us and that is Scotland gaining independence and getting out of a toxic UK. Unionists have been using the media to undermine the SNP who are the only party capable of delivering that opportunity. Let’s get a grip and focus on the real enemies of independence. Divided, fighting amongst ourselves, that’s exactly what the Unionists want us to be doing!

    181. yesindyref2 says:

      Good grief, there’s enough organs spattered around Wings to start our own transplant bank.

      Have you finished on aisle 2? Clean up needed on aisle 3! That’s biscuits, cereals and coffee, and if anyone’s spattered my tea bags, there’ll be hell to pay.

    182. heedtracker says:

      Alastair says:
      6 August, 2017 at 10:49 pm
      MT going to BBC for interview is like going to Sweeney Todd for a wee tidy up.

      Maybe, but lets face it, Pacific Quay is where the real power lies, in their Scotland region.

      Their power is growing by the day too. No matter what we say, unless we vote YES in ref2, beeb Scotland gimps will rule Scotland for a long time to come.

      MT knows that better than most.

    183. Alex Clark says:

      I’ve talked long and loud about not engaging the trolls but there those among us who will persist in doing so.

      I’m talking to you heedtracker.

      Every single troll post you are all over it, I couldn’t give a toss if you make a joke about it or it not the simple fact is.

      YOU ENCOURAGE THEM.

      In doing so you make the thread nothing more than school time squabbles. Whether that’s deliberate or not I couldn’t care less but you win a Gold medal for encouraging the trolls.

      They walk right into your living room with their muddy feet spreading crap all over the carpet and you tell them to pull up a chair and have a seat. Have a cup of tea while your waiting as I post my response to you on Wings. “Take your time before you need give me an answer”.

      You can do what you like but for the sake of keeping Wings troll free I’m asking that you no longer engage with them. Or are you blind?

      Every troll that posts here it’s YOUR comments that feeds them and keeps them going. You never answered my last questions so answer this one. Why would you do that when it is detrimental to this site?

    184. Hamish100 says:

      The enemy are the Davidsons Goves, Rennies and Dugdales of the world.

      Don’t be diverted by the Herald and co. You are just doing their job.

      Maybe some know that already?

    185. INDY2 says:

      Roll on IndyRef2

    186. INDY2 says:

      I predict IndyRef2 will be held in Sept 2017

    187. Capella says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill – Hamish Imlach version is good. I also like Dick Gaughan’s. Here with words and commentary.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT97Sope-7c

    188. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ INDY2, “…Sept 2017”

      Haha! 😀

    189. heedtracker says:

      You can do what you like but for the sake of keeping Wings troll free I’m asking that you no longer engage with them. Or are you blind?”

      I refer my honourable friend to the answer given earlier today, below. His blog, his rules. Works for me, mostly:D

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      6 August, 2017 at 7:36 pm
      “Try posting that list of Trolls onto Wings and the Rev Stu blocks you, WHY???”

      Because I decide who is and isn’t a troll here, nobody else.”

      Anyway, one of them is suing me for defamation.

      I live in dread:D

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 6 August, 2017 at 10:02 pm:

      “My opinion is that the customers showed clear signs of vulnerability, through ill health, financial literacy and stress of being unable to sell a property.”

      None of which is in any way relevant, Gfaetheblock.

      In the first place the company had nothing whatsoever to do with those, (not yet customers), vulnerability.

      Secondly, just what was it you believe the, “The mortgage issuing organisation”, were going to advise? It was, after all, “The mortgage issuing Organisation”, that was dunning the poor blighters to pay their dues.

      I have no doubts their, “customers”, were under great pressure to pay up their outstanding dues or else have the property repossessed”. Far as I remember the mortgage lender holds the title deeds to the property until the load is paid off as security and were foreclosing on the deal.

      Are not the actual mortgage lenders offering cash and stipulating that the property is the security against the cash they lent to the, “Customer”?

      Have you checked out if indeed these particular, “Customers”, had, or had not already exhausted that avenue, or already asked Citizens Advice for information?

      The facts are clear, Thompson’s company never approached their potential customers in any way. Their customers came to them and were already vulnerable.

      Then there is the obvious fact that if these so called vulnerable people had failed to sell their property they must have had some professional person’s services employed to sell the property. A home made cardboard sign stuck on a post just will not sell a property.

      So the truth is that IF these people were vulnerable it was not due to Michele Thompson and she did not hound them to do business with her.

      Now as to the actual figures. The Rev Stu published them here on Wings long ago. In fact the, “Vulnerable”, couple had bought the property at a reduced price of well below the market value under Right to buy. So had already had a bargain. No matter why they now wished to sell they expected to make a profit that would not only cover the outstanding mortgage payment but yield a handsome profit.

      Thing was they were now trying to sell in a buyers market and could not sell the property. In the end they contacted the company and the company engaged a lawyer to set up a bank loan that not only was for the outstanding mortgage but also to cover some renovation.

      The published figures show that when the loan money arrived it paid off the outstanding mortgage, paid for a renovation and gave the customer a decent profit. The fact that the company quickly sold on the property and made a profit after settling the mortgage indicates no one was left out of pocket and nothing illegal occurred.

      I’m sure you can find the Rev Stu’s old article under one of the headings across the top of this page.

      The figures show no one made a loss. No one was cheated and no laws were broken by the company.

      There was thus nothing morally wrong. If the lawyer was charged. and I have a vague idea he was, it may or may not have involved his particular involvement with Michele Thompson’s company.

    191. INDY2 says:

      I predict IndyRef2 to be held in Sept 2019

      Yes that’s Sept 2019

      LOL

    192. colin alexander says:

      Breeks said:
      “.. we, the people of Scotland, ARE sovereign, then Independence is a moot irrelevance.

      There is no constitutional requirement to extricate our sovereignty from Westminster sovereignty, because the two were not, and could not ever be, combined into a single entity.
      …for as long as we fixate on this constitutional mess being sorted out by a referendum, then however the cards fall, we still haven’t got to grips with what our sovereignty actually means. (Scotland’s electorate) still haven’t worked out they don’t actually need one.

      Colin Alexander said:

      Thanks for that post Breeks. Some excellent points. Hope you don’t mind me picking my favourite highlights.

      Being independent does not make us sovereign, we already are sovereign.

      Like Breeks, I think an indyref is unnecessary.

      We only have to give our Scottish political representatives the democratic mandate to empower them to act on our behalf on issues of constitutional matters.

      They would then be empowered to decide on making Scotland’s relationship with the UK a confederal relationship or independence or whatever option is best at the time for Scotland.

    193. Effijy says:

      I’ve been away for a few days, make the EBC News a short time ago, and I’m astonished to see a pincer attack by both Michelle Thomson and the BBC on the SNP.

      The message put across is that the SNP treated one of their own when she should have been taken as innocent until proved guilty, but on the other hand the BBC are certain that she is guilty??

      Ms Thomson wants an apology from the First Minister, and although she has just stabbed her in the back, wants to discuss her future in the party??

      She doesn’t seem to want an apology from Dugdale, Davidson,
      or the BBC who slandered her at every opportunity???

      Although almost everyone I know has at some point purchased a property and later sold it at a profit,
      the BBC has managed to get Ms Thomson to apologise for being the highest bidder for the property, and for the owner accepting the price??

      She goes on to say she is sorry for her actions and won’t be doing that again??

      So Michelle, you are sorry for something in which the police could find no wrong, and you never want to be the highest bidder, when someone wants to sell their home, and you will never sell on a property for a profit??

      This is complete and utter insanity!

      Has Michelle had a nervous breakdown by means of the UK media, and has the BBC decided that their stories passing off as news can get away with anything as long as they
      are slagging off the SNP.

      Next news story-SNP Police Bad as they didn’t search the home of a man reported missing.
      Possibly individuals within the police have not followed procedure, but do the BBC think the police should phone that First Minister, to ask what she would do, with every incident that is reported to them?

      Of course if the police did this, the First Minister would be controlling a police state.

      So she
      s

    194. Fillofficer says:

      Bejeezuz, I’ve just realised that this years silly season has gone batshit mental because this will be the lastest everer silly fuckin season & they are all fuckin shittin themselves cos it’s their last ever go at trying to dupe us in to ukok compliance b4 the EU enforce the pre nup terms for engexit. Sit back. Feet up. Stock up on popcorn, heh

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      A properly put together Constitution, approved in a ballot by a majority of the voters in Scotland, makes us Independent whatever any Government says – we just sack it.

      But apart from that my bet is Indy Ref 2 in March 2019. I wager two midget gems.

    196. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marcia says: 6 August, 2017 at 10:20 pm:

      “I would like a Wee Blue Book highlighting all the projects around London that we are contributing to.”

      Wee Blue Book! Yer kidding – right?

      You would need a set of volumes bigger than the Encyclopaedia Britannica to list that lot and still need a couple of other volumes for the bits you forgot about when you published the first lot.

    197. Capella says:

      @ Effigy – I suggest you listen to what MT actually said – which is not what you appear to have read in the media. See link from Nana.
      http://indyref2.scot/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/michelle-thomson-gms-060817.mp3

    198. INDY2 says:

      Hi K1

      I like your straight talkin posts

    199. Alex Clark says:

      @heedtracker

      Pathetic excuse, you see the Rev says more than just that he will decide who the trolls are. He says:

      “If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

      Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives”

      So when I see any poster deliberately derailing the conversation, repeatedly mind not just occasionally then I suspect them to be a troll. You know who these people are that deliberately derail the conversation yet you encourage them.

      I won’t waste any more of my time on you, you’ve made your point and I’ve made mine.

    200. heedtracker says:

      Like Breeks, I think an indyref is unnecessary.

      Well then don’t vote in indyref2, you complete and utter… oh wait, you’re the freak that sues everyone who wont LISTEN.

    201. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 6 August, 2017 at 10:34 pm:

      ” … So should the SNP apologies, I am lost now?”

      You were lost before you started.

      Neither the SNP nor Nicola Sturgeon have anything to apologise for in this matter.

      The Lady herself, and no one else, resigned herself from the Party Whip. That means the SNP DID NOT withdraw the whip from her.

      It also means she automatically resigned as an SNP Member and thus neither the 1parliamentary Group nor the SNP as a party could officially support her. They did, though, unofficially support her and as she was no longer a party member she could not, under SNP Rules, be selected as a candidate in any election.

      What is it you want them to apologise for, Gfaetheblock?

    202. K1 says:

      I haven’t posted on this thread INDY2, which ones did you like?

    203. heedtracker says:

      Alex Clark says:
      6 August, 2017 at 11:52 pm
      @heedtracker

      Pathetic excuse, you see the Rev says more than just that he will decide who the trolls are. He says:

      Alex what is really eating you? Its just btl chatter. Its not going to change the world, sadly.

      You’re picture thingee’s howling at the moon, but it should be a high horse and you really should climb down from it too.

    204. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Graham

      You assert Monetary Union was to be a temporary agreement. Prove your assertion, please.

      I accept the White Paper states: “Of course it would be open to the people of Scotland to choose a different arrangement in the future.”

      However, I can find no evidence that a UK Monetary Union was chosen as an interim, temporary policy.

      So, I invite you or anyone else to show me the evidence that a UK Monetary Union was intended to be temporary.

    205. Petra says:

      @ Robert at 9:36pm ….. It’s difficult to know what’s actually going on Robert. On the one hand we’re being told that Michelle Thomson was not investigated by the Police, not charged etc and then we’re told that the Crown Office has stated that due to an “absence of sufficient, credible and reliable evidence the case has been dropped, for the time being (or whatever?). Now why would that statement be accredited to her if she wasn’t ever questioned / being investigated at all? There was no case against her. On the otherhand did the recent CO statement apply to Christopher Hales, the lawyer, ONLY? But if that’s the case why is Michelle Thomson over the moon about the fact that her name has been cleared? I can only think that if he had been found to be guilty last week it could have led to a case against her.

      On the otherhand I’ve come across a Police Scotland statement to the effect that “they confirm that as a result of a complaint from the Scottish Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal they have been instructed by the Crown Office to carry out an official investigation into alleged irregularities relating to property deals in the year 2010-2011 (13 cases involving MT’s company only).

      I’ve listened to the video again and the Ruth Davidson timeline starting in June 2014. It might very well be the case that this was the commencement of the investigation into Christopher Hales but if Michelle Thomson’s company was linked to that investigation would she not have been aware of it at that time?

      Whatever’s going on I’m going to drop the subject. I’m delighted that this hellish saga has ended for Michelle Thomson but REALLY upset that Nicola Sturgeon, her husband and Derek McKay are now being portrayed as the real culprits in all of this, in the newspapers and on a televised interview with MT on Reporting Scotland tonight. Edited of course to suit their purposes. Maybe Nicola Sturgeon could find a way to clarify the situation at the next FMQ’s? Then again maybe she’ll decide that it would be more conducive to ride the storm out and let it go?

      ……………………………….

      Some great posts on here tonight. Too numerous to mention.

      @ Sinky at 9:07pm ….. Thanks for the links Sinky. Scotland with little oil and what we do have is totally worthless. Aye right!

      @ Dr Jim at 10:08pm …. Great post Dr Jim. Great advice which we (I) should all heed. It’s difficult to ignore some of the anti-SNP / Independence garbage that’s being posted on here, but maybe a different way of responding is called for and in some cases of course just to ignore.

      @ Phronesis at 10:14pm … Thanks for that data Phronesis highlighting that the majority don’t support Westminster policies / Brexit at all. Even more good news for the Independence cause.

    206. INDY2 says:

      K1

      I have followed Wings for years and have read a lot of good stuff on here.

      As I said I enjoy your direct approach LOL

    207. colin alexander says:

      @Heedtracker

      Please try to keep up. I have no plans to sue you:

      colin Alexander said:
      31 July, 2017 at 6:31 pm
      @Heedtracker

      “You are the one calling me Unionist troll, so it would be up to me to prove you did that.

      Then the burden of proof would fall on you to prove I support Unionism. ( Edit: and that I’m a troll).

      If you fail to do that, then it’s likely the Sheriff would find in my favour.

      It would be up to me to show that the accusation of being a Unionist lowers my reputation.

      On that basis I don’t suppose I’d get much compensation, as over half the people in Scotland ( and the Sheriff) may consider being called a Unionist to be a compliment, not an insult. Even though I don’t agree.

      So legal action cancelled.”

    208. K1 says:

      Robert Peffers? MT said in that interview that she did not have a choice in resigning the whip, so whilst you are factually correct, I think by what she said clearly in the interview, she was ‘pushed’ to resign the whip, it came directly from the excecutive and that is why when ‘pushed’ by Nick Eardly in the interview whether she would like Nicola to apologise ‘for that part’ she said yes she would, she also said she’d like the BBC to apologise too.

      The waters are a bit muddied. I’d still back her in a crowdfund against the papers and the BBC, but she ain’t going to go after them. So that’s not going to happen. Everyone is making fairly understandable points on this, on Wings, mixed bag of opionions to be expected.

      The reality is we all know it’s not Nicola’s fault nor should she be held accountable for what was a top notch deployed smear campaign against MT. The Beeb just played their ‘right to reply’ card on the back of ‘no case against her’. They’ve done what they always do in these situations, manipulated the interviewee for their own ends whilst simultaneously on the surface gave her a platform to air her grievances.

      She’s still only one vote and she’s still a yesser. Let’s move on.

      What can we do? It’s done.

    209. heedtracker says:

      So legal action cancelled.”

      Rock’s on here trying to start fights, youre on to endlessly whine about how you dont like the way WoS readers address you. Its certainly an odd way to defend this farce union Colin A.

    210. Alex Clark says:

      No trial, pats on the back all round then.

    211. colin alexander says:

      @heedtracker

      No, I’ve been whining about about the SNP didn’t offer independence: It offered parliamentary sovereignty pretending to be independence.

      If they had said the truth: we aren’t seeking independence. We only seek Parliamentary Sovereignty for Holyrood within the Union, then YES may have won.

      Many NO voters might have voted YES, if the SNP had not let people think they were offering full independence.

      ( I accept they explain in the White Paper that what they call “independence” meant independence from Westminster Parliament, Not full economic and political independence. But how many people bothered to read the White Paper? ).

      But, of course, they thought “independence” would be the big winner.

      “Semi-independent Economic and Monetary Union” does not sound as sexy or exciting as independent.

    212. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ K1: “She’s still only one vote and she’s still a yesser. Let’s move on.

      What can we do? It’s done.”

      _______________________

      Amen.

    213. Petra says:

      Aw Smallaxe X that was fantastic and nearly had me crying. Thanks for that. Not the crying, lol. Wonderful and how apt to post it on this most ‘disunited’ thread. Yes we have to get our act together, especially as we don’t have long to go now and UNITE XX

    214. Robert Peffers says:

      @Simon Curran says: 6 August, 2017 at 10:54 pm:

      ” … Let’s get a grip and focus on the real enemies of independence. Divided, fighting amongst ourselves, that’s exactly what the Unionists want us to be doing!”

      So just what convinces you that some here are NOT actually, “sleepers”, seeded into Wings by the Westminster Establishment, Simon?

      Let’s just consider a few proven facts. The Westminster Establishment has historically always employed, “Sleepers”, in every country and within any British organisation to cause the fall of what Westminster sees as their right to rule.

      They did it in the emerging working class Trade Unions and still do so today in the unions. They have been doing it in Ireland for centuries – remember the agents who fathered children while undercover in several groups in the United Kingdom. Heres just one link for you:-
      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/20/met-police-apologise-women-had-relationships-with-undercover-officers

      Pre-Treaty of Union the London Scot, William Paterson set up a subscription scheme to gather money from the English Public to bail out the English Parliament that had massive national debt after fighting wars throughout Europe and beyond because of the English Navigational Acts, (it was used against Scotland too). This scheme led to the Royal Charter that saw the creation of the private company, The Bank of England.

      Later that same London Scot, William Paterson, was in Edinburgh setting up the abortive Darien Expedition that bankrupted the wealthy Scottish Landowners who were also the Scottish Parliamentarians.

      Then there was the English Author and undercover agent, Daniel Defoe, who was also in Edinburgh and had the ear of those Scots parliamentarians. Both these persons were employed by Sir Robert Harley. You will find a brief mention of that fact he was the English government’s Spymaster here :-
      https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/08/fiction.danieldefoe

      Now we have not only the better known MI5 & 6 but several other Security Services including the 77 Brigade:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/77th_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)

      Whatever makes you imagine that Westminster has not been infiltrating the indy movement for many, many years?

      It is what helped build the British Empire World Wide and has acted upon what Westminster believes are enemies of the state always. They have been at this game since before there was a country of England.

      I’m certain they have people here on Wings and I’m not in any way paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. It is factual. Look up the History of Chicksands:-

      http://www.army.mod.uk/intelligence/32259.aspx

      The Yanks also had a very strange base there for a while and mays still have it now.

    215. Smallaxe says:

      Petra, thank you, for listening to and understanding the reason why I posted that speech.

    216. Alex Clark says:

      @Smallaxe

      That was just class, you and I have a lot to talk about LOL

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o2iWKlMfso&ab_channel=rochefort1076

    217. Valerie says:

      Christ, used to really enjoy this forum.

      Come on now, and its trolls spamming every time.

      I’m also sick of seeing regulars engage them.

    218. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yes, sleepers may well exist in the Indy movement, but consider this. If posters who are sleepers were active during Indy Ref 1 but still sleepers, and weren’t activated then when it was close specially in the last week, what’s the panic about now?

      The more activated sleepers we see now, the better off we are 🙂

    219. Smallaxe says:

      I’m looking forward to doing that, Alex, with a little help from our friends.
      🙂

    220. Alex Clark says:

      For me it’s very simple.

      There are those of us us that wish Scotland to be an Independent country and there are those that don’t. Those that do say it it quite loudly in forums such as Wings Over Scotland. That’s the point eh.

      Those that don’t are not on the likes of Wings, these are your mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers I’m talking about.

      So instead the state is their voice (after all they need a voice) and that is what I describe as the trolls. They believe they are speaking for Britain or the UK they are speaking for those that don’t come on social media.

      They are deluding themselves, they are speaking for the government and it’s hold over Scotland. They speak for no one other than the state. I have stopped listening to the state. They are poison and are fighting against us.

      They want to deny us the choice that we should have. They are in control of us and will not give that up without a fight. We fight them though through words, sense and talk of justice. An Independent Scotland has right on it’s side.

      All we have to do is defeat the lying media and the BBC in particular. Anybody disagree?

    221. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alex Clark says: 6 August, 2017 at 11:16 pm:

      ” … YOU ENCOURAGE THEM.”

      Cobblers, Alex. First of all these people are mostly NOT Trolls. They are here for quite a different reason and may also be paid by the Westminster Establishment. If so they will earn their money whether we encourage them or not.

      I’ve no doubt there will also be trolls here too. Trolls do not discriminate who they disrupt – it is just a game to them. What is going on here is a bit more sinister than trolling and a troll like game.

      In point of fact there is far more disruption caused by naïve Wingers attempting to tell other Wingers not to engage with what the naïve Wingers believe to be just trolls than there are actual trolls posting on Wings. If you do not believe me then pause a while and count them.

      Colin Alexander post utter pish and someone engages with his point- then ten naïve wingers all berate the one winger that dared engage with Colin.

      This anti-SNP thing began some time ago. Now we will all have our own thoughts on what, or what not the SNP as a party should do or should not do. Yet can you ever recall such a deluge of SNP BAAD from supposed indy supporting Wingers ever before on Wings? I certainly cannot ever remember such an onslaught.

      It is, quite obviously being organised centrally somewhere but a real troll or two may also be taking advantage of the organised anti-SMP onslaught.

      Also bear in mind this wee fact – The SNP as a government or as a party are NOT the indy movement but the feet on the ground SNP membership and the broader YES movement are the real indy movements power source.

      First thing to know is that the SNP parliamentary groups or the SNP council groups, do not make SNP policy decisions.

      These decisions are made by the grass roots members who, all have only one vote each and that includes every party member including Nicola Sturgeon herself. They send their delegates to National Conference with motions to be voted upon by delegates at conference.

      So just why numpties imagine that the SNP leadership are the ones deciding how to do things is beyond belief. The leadership only decide how to implement the policies we give them.

      Which, if you bother thinking about it is the reason that they cannot use the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland until they are mandated to do so by a majority of the people of Scotland and not just from SNP membership.

      Until they have that clear mandate to assert the people’s sovereignty then they are legally powerless to use it. We, collectively, hold that legal sovereignty not the elected MPs, MEPs, MSPs or councillors.

      Problem is that under English law, (from 1688), the parliament of England has the Queen of England’s legal sovereignty and thus needs no mandate from the people of the three country Kingdom of England to use sovereignty and the English country alone, without Wales and N.I. vastly outnumber our Scottish members and that’s without considering EVEL.

      If you fondly imagine that the Westminster Establishment created such as the 77th Brigade to fight the militant Muslims in Muslim countries then think again.

      From Westminster’s viewpoint their precious United Kingdom is under far greater threat of extinction from the Scottish independence, N.I. Republicans and Welsh Plaid Cymru than they ever were from foreign invasion in the entire United Kingdom’s history and it shows.

      They are running around like headless chickens and what passes just now as their head is, not to put too fine a point to it, as loupingly gyte as a whole barrel of very live frogs.

    222. Alex Clark says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I’ve no idea why you feel it is necessary to insult the poster your addressing before making your point but you do it all the time!

      You type their name then a small quote and then insult them LOL personally I don’t give a toss but it doesn’t make you look good Robert in my opinion.

      Serious question, what is YOUR definition of a troll? Your first paragraph sounds like one to me. Honestly it does.

      “First of all these people are mostly NOT Trolls. They are here for quite a different reason and may also be paid by the Westminster Establishment. If so they will earn their money whether we encourage them or not.”

      I have my definition of a troll and you have yours, let’s leave it at that. I’m off to bed.

    223. K1 says:

      Sir Nicholas MacPherson inadvertently let it slip, when his clearly politically motivated realease of his advice to the UK government was published at the same time as the ‘sermon on the pound’ from Osborne, that they, the treasury regarded the currency union as temporary and that it is most likely that ‘that’ was the true reason for their objection to a currency union.

      ‘First, the Scottish Government is still leaving the option open of moving to a different currency option in the longer term. Successful currency unions are based on the near universal belief that they are irreversible.’

      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/279460/Sir_Nicholas_Macpherson_-_Scotland_and_a_currency_union.pdf

      The white paper did indeed state: “Of course it would be open to the people of Scotland to choose a different arrangement in the future.”

      Alex Salmond and Scottish government spokespeople repeatedly stated the reasoning behind the currency union ‘option’ for the indyref campaign:

      ‘A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “As the Fiscal Commission Working Group – which includes two Nobel Prize winners – has made clear, it is in the best interests of the rest of the UK for Scotland to retain sterling, in a currency union.

      “In part due to the valuable contribution Scotland makes to sterling and the UK’s balance of payments but also in the interests of businesses in the rest of the UK for whom Scotland is their second largest export market.’

      http://archive.is/oWVaP

      Note this is not the SNP who took it upon themselves to just make this up, the Fiscal Commision Working Group directly advised the Scottish government and ‘their’ reasoning was faultless.

      The UK government produced a paper called ‘Scotland Analysis: Assesment of a sterling currency union’. In this report they firstly wrongly ‘assert’ that the UK would be the continuing state and from that wrong premise all else flows. Because the entire premise is flawed, one can pretty much ignore all the assertions underpinning this report. But here’s what the issue regarding the motivation of the UK government came down to with regard the currency union and the confirmation that Alex Salmond was absolutely correct that they (UK gov) were bluffing. The reality was always simple:

      ‘Annexe A :
      The legal position of the UK pound

      A.16 The only way in which a formal currency union could arise between an independent Scottish Sate and the continuing UK is if the continuing UK were to agree to establish one. This would be a matter for the continuing UK, and would depend on what would be in the best interests of the continuing UK and it’s population in future.’

      They are/were spiteful and arrogant.

      Note the difference in emphasis and tone. We wanted the best for ‘both’ they wanted only for themselves. Only if they said so, so there was no great disaster awaiting Scotland if we’d been dealing with decent people, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We are dealing with a bunch of utter bastards.

      Alex Salmond expressed and summed up the whole issue of the currency union eloquently at the time:

      ‘On the issue of currency, the Scottish government has accepted the advice of the Fiscal Commission Working Group that a sterling-zone currency union is in the best interests of an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK. The pound is not the property of George Osborne or Ed Balls, nor even Danny Alexander. It is as much Scotland’s pound as the rest of the UK’s.

      When Mr Osborne flew in to Scotland to pronounce that he would not accept such an arrangement and would refuse even to discuss the matter with us, the Chancellor chose to misrepresent the fiscal commission’s proposals. He chose also to misrep­resent the size of the Scottish financial sector and the impact of oil-price fluctuations, and offered misleading comparisons with the eurozone.

      The Treasury further argued that the UK is the continuing state in international law, and so Scotland is not entitled to a share of the Bank of England, among other things. As a campaign tactic, it seems as if the UK government is insisting on the sole right
      to determine what the assets are and which are the liabilities.

      Despite the UK Treasury’s position, the Scottish government is continuing to be constructive. Even though the Treasury has accepted that it has the legal obligation to pay back the UK debt in the event of a Yes vote, we are willing to finance a fair share. This is dependent, of course, on receiving a fair share of the assets. It is the UK government that curiously seems to be insisting, through its line of argument, that the rest of the UK must shoulder the whole debt burden.

      As Christine Bell, professor of constitutional law at Edinburgh, has pointed out, “Legally under international law the position is clear: if the remainder of the UK keeps the name and status of the UK under international law, it keeps its liabilities for the debt. The UK took out the debt, and legally it owes the money. Scotland cannot therefore ‘default’.”

      http://archive.is/SJ16b

      In other words as Christine Bell reveals instating the true legal reality under international law, it places the ‘Scotland analysis: blah blah report in its true context as a total pack of lies of produced by the UK Treasury.

      It’s not ‘my’ opinion’ about the former top civil servant MacPherson’s ‘political’ motivation although he will always deny this, it’s the findings of the Public Administration Select Committee in March of 2015:

      ‘The impartiality of the Treasury’s top civil servant was “compromised” by a decision to make public his advice on sharing the pound with an independent Scotland, MPs have concluded.

      The Treasury’s permanent secretary Sir Nicholas Macpherson wrote to George Osborne in the run-up to last year’s independence referendum, advising the chancellor that a proposed currency union with Scotland would be “fraught with difficulty”.

      The advice was subsequently made public on the day the three main Westminster parties ruled out such an arrangement, prompting the Scottish government to accuse its British counterpart of using the civil service for political ends.’

      http://archive.is/EoPBp

      Anyone, anyone suggesting that the SNP are in any way at fault regarding the currency union as the best option ‘at that time’, raking over the coals with half baked innuendos insinuating ‘they got it wrong’ is talking complete shite. Without the context, the understanding of who put together the options and the reasoning behind that choice, is shit stirring in an attempt to undersmine the SNP today, now.

      The reality in more recent times is this, from Alex Salmond, July 4th 2017:

      ‘Salmond claims that the current position of the Prime Minister will fuel the drive for independence. May’s position not to allow a referendum on independence, until after Brexit deals have been finalised in 2019, will strengthen the drive for independence (FT, 2017)

      The likelihood is that Scotland would set up an entirely new currency which would be primed and ready to trade with the world. It is unlikely that Scotland would join the Euro and a currency union with the rest of the UK is rapidly fading into the distance. It’s clear that the political chasm between Scotland and rUK is widening dramatically as each day passes.

      http://archive.is/R5Ux3

      Let’s get on wi the reality. We’ll be having our referendum, we’ve learned a lot from the last one. Everything has altered, and we’ll get our independence.

      And we all know who the stirring twats are, let them twist in the wind.

    224. William Wallace says:

      Anyone who is here disrupting the place and sowing division is best off engaged and dismissed. Ignoring the trolls facilitates proliferation. Take them down with reasoned argument and keep yir eyes on the prize.

      We are not going to be divided as long as we have a common goal.

      Scotland will be an independent nation and all the paid shills and all the shills men can get tae fuck. 🙂

    225. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 6 August, 2017 at 11:45 pm:
      @ Effigy – I suggest you listen to what MT actually said – which is not what you appear to have read in the media. See link from Nana.
      http://indyref2.scot/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/michelle-thomson-gms-060817.mp3

      For some unknown reason I actually misses that one link from Nana. So thank you for highlighting it, Capella.

      I was beginning to think my painful sleepless night had clouded my memory of what I though I had listen to while deciding to breakfast in bed and then catch up on sleep.

      No, I had remembered precisely what the lady had said during her BBC interview and you are correct in stating that some here on wings are those with the faulty comprehension or memory of what they heard.

      There are several claims being made here on Wings that are not what was said in that BBC interview. I could only find one minor fault in what Michele said in the entire interview and it was what I have been saying all day here.

      At no time did Michele Thompson blame the SNP not did she claim she was expelled from the party. She did say she resigned the whip but said she felt she was under party pressure to do so.

      However, she later revealed something that might explain how she felt aggrieved. That was where she pointed out that she thought that the treatment dealt out to others who were having problems was not the same treatment as dished out to herself. It then soon became apparent why she thought that way.

      She has not yet grasped the actual reason those others got different treatment. They DID NOT RESIGN THE WHIP but she did and that had the immediate effect of placing her outside the parliamentary group and automatically removed as a party member.

      Which is exactly what I have said all day on the matter. As long as she had NOT resigned she had rights as a party member to seek and receive help and answers. She also had the right to give her side of the story. It is apparently the lack of this right to be heard that Michele has failed to grasp is the reason no one in the party, including Nicola Sturgeon, could officially provide.

      Those others, some of who subsequently were expelled, did not resign the whip, or they did so only AFTER they had told their side of the story or were shown to be guilty of the accusations against them.

      A small detail but with major effects.

    226. Cactus says:

      A very timely article regarding Eric Moonman…

      We’re waxing gibbous at 99.6% tish now:
      https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/phases/uk/glasgow

      Watch out for the btl comments at 7:10 pm later tonight.

      This explains a lot.

      Aooooow!

    227. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alex Clark says:7 August, 2017 at 1:37 am:

      “For me it’s very simple.”

      Aye! Alex – simple minded that is.

      “… Those that don’t are not on the likes of Wings, these are your mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers I’m talking about.”

      Claptrap, sweeping generalisation and ageist to boot.

      My Grandfather died in 1949 and was a Scottish Nationalist before there was an SNP. There is very good reason there are a large percentage of elderly people who are unionists and it is not simply because they are older.

      The truth is far more simple that. When I was a wee schoolboy and was inspired by such as Wendy Wood and Canon Kenyon Wright we nationalist were very, very thin on the ground. Around us, and treating us like we were dangerous terrorists were a population of all ages who were supporters of the Labour, Tory and Liberal Parties. The SNP had no MPs and there was no Scottish parliament. The many older unionist of that time are long syne dead.

      So here’s the truth – those we grew up with are, like myself the older generation and they are thus mainly also those who are the life long Labour, Tory and LibDem supporters of my youth.

      However, it was the past hard work of we nationalists now in the older generation like me who battled on through the long hard lonely years that built up the Indy movement from a very much fringe party to what it is today. The fact is those people who are elderly and unionists are the life long Labour, Tory and Liberal party members and many still the elder MPs or in the Lords today.

      They are Unionists because they have always been unionists and now because they magically suddenly become unionists overnight on a attaining a certain stipulated age.

    228. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alex Clark says: 7 August, 2017 at 2:19 am:

      “I’ve no idea why you feel it is necessary to insult the poster your addressing before making your point but you do it all the time!”

      You have predacious few ideas in any case Alex and in the first place I only insult the ones who insult our collective intelligence.

      “You type their name then a small quote and then insult them LOL personally I don’t give a toss but it doesn’t make you look good Robert in my opinion.”

      And there’s a prime example of your lack of what is going on.

      In the first place I do not, “type”, a small quote. I cut & paste the part of the commenter’s comment so that it is simple for others to be able to not only follow who and what I am replying to but it includes the time & date of the comment in case others are attempting to follow the thread while not participating in real time.

      “Serious question, what is YOUR definition of a troll?”

      My definition?

      It isn’t MY definition. It is a long established, but very often misunderstood term used wrongly by computer users.

      A Troll is someone who deliberately sets out, for no discernible reason, to disrupt any form of debate or discussion and should not be confused with those who are described as attempting to flame others.

      Trolls do not have any valid reason for disrupting others – they just do it for the hell of it. That being so if they are ignored they go off elsewhere to annoy some other debate or discussion.

      These guys on Wings are quite different and they have a motive to disrupt the debate or discussion on Wings. They are either just unionists who want to stop the Indy movement or worse they are paid for agents from such as the 77 Brigade or other unionist organisations. We have had them all on Wings from time to time. “votenoborders”, for example:-
      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/may/01/scottish-independence-scotland

      Some of the regulars from Labourhame:-
      http://labourhame.com/

      And more than a few real nutters who just came to slag everyone off.

      However, there is currently a real campaign of people with only the object of criticism of the SNP. Now I do not mean criticising the party members but the parliamentary parties of Westminster & Holyrood and the leadership & executive.

      Mostly from recent newcomers or perhaps old comers under new names. I suspect there are some, going by their posting style, that are either the same person with differing names or who were schooled to be disruptive by the same organisation.

      These people are not Trolls and ignoring them will have zero effect.

      I hope you read that when you awake. As for me I’m facing a second night of pain and insomnia.

    229. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says @ 1:55am

      “Which, if you bother thinking about it is the reason that they cannot use the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland until they are mandated to do so by a majority of the people of Scotland and not just from SNP membership.

      Until they have that clear mandate to assert the people’s sovereignty then they are legally powerless to use it. We, collectively, hold that legal sovereignty not the elected MPs, MEPs, MSPs or councillors…”

      Yes Robert, but they were elected! The SNP with a manifesto for Independence held an outright majority in Holyrood and a virtual absolute and unparalleled majority of SNP MP’s at Westminster! They had the clear constitutional authority to enact Scottish sovereignty simply by winning office! The democratic will of the Scottish people was to have a government which stood on a ticket for Independence! They’d won! We’d won! Then threw it away via the de facto “recount” of a technically unnecessary referendum which threw a lifeline to the constitutionally absurd status quo.

      You of all people should understand that the sovereign will of the people is absolute. The SNP was properly elected and over the required threshold to legitimately exit the Union.

      It is the SNP which is being woolly headed about Scotland’s sovereignty, backing away from Scotland’s sovereign legitimacy and adopting the robes of a subservient super committee that is constitutionally inferior to Westminster, not a government subservient to the people who elected them.

      It is again the SNP being woolly headed about Scotland’s sovereignty when they backpedal on the Brexit referendum result where a democratic majority of Scots, and therefor a sovereign decision expressed by Scots, elected to remain in Europe. I believe the SNP is in error when it sets aside the sovereign decision to remain in Europe, and waters it down to the Single Market and Customs Union. That was simply not what Scotland elected to maintain.

      Now yes, I am happy to concede that the country was not prepared for Independence on such a constitutional technicality, and that civil disorder would have followed, but that doesn’t nullify the legitimacy of that constitutional technicality.

      I am happy to concede there is a massive difficulty in bringing the whole country round to the principle of Scottish sovereignty without provoking civil unrest from the Unionist majority, but in my opinion it is an equally dangerous abandonment of sovereignty to so often and so readily watch our own elected government set aside sovereign decisions we have made as a people. If Holyrood believes it can arbitrarily set aside Scottish sovereignty, then what chance have we of compelling Westminster to recognise it???

      I am not saying any of this to damage the SNP. I am saying this because the SNP has a great power in its hands that it seems like it currently doesn’t understand. Once they do understand, the process of Independence, or more correctly, the process of having our Independence appropriately recognised internationally, becomes straight forward and a mere formality.

      That is not however the same thing as charging at it like a bull in a china shop. Once we have seized upon the absolute nature of Scottish sovereignty, there is no instant compulsion to do anything hasty, inflammatory, or provocative with it. We don’t need an immediate UDI or instant repeal of the Union which is likely to stir trouble.

      What we can do, and in my opinion what we should be doing, is allowing Westminster to dance at the end of its chain, but see ourselves as a definitive study in obduracy whenever Westminster encroaches anywhere near a Scottish sovereign decision. We should be making Scottish sovereignty the solid granite headland which wave after wave of Westminster’s faux Parliamentary sovereignty flounders. We needn’t do anything more that watch Westminster tear itself apart faced with an uncompromising stonewall approach to OUR sovereignty.

      Once we understand that we have the power to wield our own sovereignty, and I mean properly understand it, then I’m sorry to say, the whole picture changes, and the current SNP strategy looks like it’s gone out on a limb, making concessions in the name of democracy which conflict with an obdurate defence of sovereign will.

      I don’t want a damaged SNP government, far from it. But I do want an SNP government which speaks with the iron will of a resolutely sovereign people, and leaves Westminster floundering to do anything in Scotland without first establishing a sovereign mandate to do it.

      By all means use Brexit, but be proactive, and set it up so the final rupture which formally shreds the Act of Union is instigated by Westminster trying to force Scotland into doing something against the national interest and in open defiance of our sovereign will. We don’t have to enact our sovereign independence and plunge Scotland into acrimony and chaos, it will suffice to invoke our sovereign legitimacy and watch Westminster reconcile its impotence to overrule us.

      But it has to start at the top.

      And Petra @ 8:41, that’s terrific news about the constitutional reappraisal, terrific right up until your last sentence, “…. Constitution for Scotland that can be readily understood, debated and agreed by the Scots before Scotland regains it’s Sovereignty.”

      Face palm. Sigh. We have not lost our sovereignty. It cannot be removed from us. EVER. Not by our own vote, delegation, abdication, force, coercion, bribe, inducement, or threat. So how come Westminster managed to remove it to London? Simple answer, it never did. We don’t have to “regain” anything.

    230. Ghillie says:

      Oh Robert, a second night of pain and insomnia. That sounds horrible.

      Thinking of you and hope it eases and you have actualy managed to slip off to sleep.

      Wee quiet night night =)

    231. Dorothy Devine says:

      I am cheering myself up while reading the night owls comments by listening to Stanley Odd and Gerry Rafferty.

      Good morning one and all! The sun has blinked through on another day of dependence , drivel and dispute.

      C’mon Scotland ! Get a grip!

      Proclaimers singing now , Cap in Hand!

    232. Effijy says:

      The discussion above puts forward that MT was maximising profits for her company, the sellers should not have sold their home at such a price?

      What do we do here, are they a special needs couple who should have had their own social worker?

      Are they getting best value in the supermarket of their choosing, are they getting value for their BBC License fee?

      Are we happy with the UK Banks, who were making £10 Billion plus profits, taking part in Casino Banking?

      The tax payer bailed them out to the tune of £80 Billion
      when some 3 years later, the banking industry had handed out £80 Billion in bonuses.
      How about they took responsibility for their own actions and they didn’t take bonuses until they cleared off their debt.

      How about the tax payer helps out the banks for running up debts that can’t currently pay for, and who then repose
      the homes of tax payers who find themselves in the same position.

      We seem to accept this “Industry Standard”?

    233. Snode1965 says:

      Radio Jockland at it again this morning over Michelle Thomson.
      Robertson and Yeardly claiming that she is demanding an apology from Nicola Sturgeon.
      Yet when they play a live recording of the interview she says no such thing.
      Same shit,different day.

    234. heedtracker says:

      Snode1965 says:
      7 August, 2017 at 8:07 am
      Radio Jockland at it again this morning over Michelle Thomson.
      Robertson and Yeardly claiming that she is demanding an apology from Nicola Sturgeon.
      Yet when they play a live recording of the interview she says no such thing.
      Same shit,different day.

      Imagine the kind of pressure dudes like Eardly are under, from the MI5 goons in Pacific Quay. As in, “Get it UKOK SNP bad right or get out and get proper job Nick, it’s your choice old bean.”

      As Donalda keeks out from behind her door.

    235. heedtracker says:

      BBC r4 vote tory Today show ramps up war with North Korea, as usual, also as usual, Graun airbrushes Scotland out of the UKOK zone, for the last 2000 years of history too.

      Watch in awe, these are English intellectuals. They actually mean Roman England, or only half of the British isles, and why Scotland exists today.

      http://archive.is/qijfS

      Mary Beard
      Mary Beard abused on Twitter over Roman Britain’s ethnic diversity
      Classicist says her assertion that there was at least some diversity under Roman rule led to ‘torrent of aggressive insults’

    236. Smallaxe says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      7 August, 2017 at 7:35 am
      “I am cheering myself up while reading the night owls comments by listening to Stanley Odd and Gerry Rafferty.”

      Good morning Dorothy, that’s the way to do it, don’t let the b/stards grind you down. 🙂

    237. Smallaxe says:

      Nana; Good morning, it’s a lovely day here. Thank you for your links. Kettle’s on. 🙂

    238. Snode1965 says:

      Heedtracker…lol.
      More like Agent Donalda pulling the strings!

    239. gus1940 says:

      Marcia @10.20

      And another Wee (perhaps Large) Blue Book listing all the Scottish Businesses which have since say WW2 been taken over by competitors from you know where, kept running for a while and then with accompanying crocodile tears and lame excuses shut down, their employees thrown in the scrap heap and production moved south of the border.

      The figure for the number of jobs lost would be horrific when tallied up.

    240. heedtracker says:

      Death of retirement: Can the UK afford the state pension?
      http://archive.is/2OwTO

      That’s just another glorious example of tory rule. State pension spend is one of the great economic multipliers. State pensions almost always go straight in to the money supply, multiplying with each spend, at a very local level.

      State pensions freak out the tories because their whole economic thing is shoring up huge mountains of cash for and by upper middle classes, of teamGB.

      A good if small example of this tory freak out is, pensioner bus passes. It drives planet toryboy nuts because it’s a gentle trickle away from the great cash mountains that the tory core vote like to sit on the top of and that’s bad.

      We live in a UK zone where at least half of us cannot afford to pay a sudden bill of over £300.

      Yet state pensions and free travel can transform life for low earner pensioners, with terrific multipliers.

      So what say the tory gimps of the great UKOK zone. Its not good for the wealthy/wealth creators, who really do need another tube line under London, at £30+bn and £200 bn Trident 2 will keep us safe, from Kim Jong-un.

      Saddest thing is a broke tory voting pensioner. But Another BBC gimp week of vote tory teamGB propaganda farts into action.

    241. I wonder what the reaction from GCHQ would be if I included ‘time bomb’ in one of my laptop warrior vile/bile cybernat sitting in my mother’s basement in my underpants calling Davidson a ‘dyke’ posts would be?
      Enough already, guys. You are freaking me out.

    242. wull2 says:

      Why don’t you just produce a WEE book for the BBC alone.

    243. Nana says:

      I’ve held my tongue for a while but seriously the mean spirited and petty sniping on here has to stop. Do we want to put people off coming here, the unionists are trying their best to do just that.
      Don’t help them.

      Lesley riddoch podcast
      http://rqs.libsyn.com/hurlin-stanes

    244. Yes the smear campaign against Michelle Thomson from the unionist rags continue.

      I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I scanned through the Sunday mail yesterday and it had article from a couple named Troy
      who had sold their house/flat to Michelle Thomsom.

      And they feel they have been ripped off by her and wish they hadn’t sold their house..

    245. heedtracker says:

      wull2 says:
      7 August, 2017 at 9:06 am
      Why don’t you just produce a WEE book for the BBC alone.

      Because there’s not enough paper on planet Earth.

      BBC r4 Today show ended today, with an English dude explaining to us why Scots are not permitted to use Scottish place names as brand labels because these places are owned by the National Trust.

      Quite a listen to really, tory imperial master style. Why this is tolerated in Scotland, who knows.

      The National Trust was set up by the very rich of teamGB to dodge death duties after WW2.

      The filthy if old money rich, “gave” their mansions and estates to the state in lieu of death duties but they still very much own them. All it means today is that the sucker tax payer pays the upkeep for old money estates and mansions and then we can visit too, if we keep paying membership fees, to visit stuff, what we’re already paying for.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15456838.National_Trust_for_Scotland_extend_olive_branch_over_Glencoe____bully____row/

    246. Song42 says:

      Moran taing for the links Nana 😉

    247. colin alexander says:

      One thing Unionists and Independists are agreed on ( apart from the odd dissenter) is that the people of Scotland are sovereign. As Unionists themselves say:” the people decided in 2014″.

      As sovereign partners in the UK Union, Scotland can insist on reform so that Holyrood is the sovereign parliament for Scotland within the Union.

      If Scotland’s people decide that’s what they want, who is it for the SNP to say NO, you must go independent.

      If Scotland’s people decide Holyrood will be the sovereign parliament for the sovereign people of Scotland, who are Tory or Labour Unionists to say NO it must be Westminster that is sovereign over the people and parliament of Scotland?

      The people are sovereign. The UK Govt had no right to insist the only question in 2014 should be about independence. The Scot Govt had no right to agree to this, when it was clear many people wanted Home Rule / Devo-Max as an option.

      I believe we should not be arguing about Union v independence. We should all be agreeing Holyrood will be the sovereign parliament for the sovereign people of Scotland as part of a UK.

      It is elected proportionally, so accurately reflects the political views in Scotland. It would be for Scotland to have the final say on legislation that affects Scotland.

      It has no undemocratic, unelected House of Lords.

      It would be a easier fix for the democratic deficit which is alienating half of Scotland from this Union.

      The UK Govt has repeatedly said they uphold the right of Scottish self-determination. So let’s self-determine that Holyrood is sovereign, not subservient to Westminster WITHIN the UK.

      We would have the parliamentary political sovereignty of independence and also have the Union.

      Why have a Union? Because many of the electorate in Scotland want one. But many would also agree that Scotland’s parliament should be sovereign, as Scotland’s people are sovereign, whether they support independence or the Union.

    248. Abulhaq says:

      A recent English edition of the ‘seedy’ Daily Mail had an article on why after Brexit it will be great to be English. The world of Moonman lives on, just as long as those relics of empire the ingrate Scots and Welsh are kept chained up.

    249. Macart says:

      You go away for few days to sort some personals out and this is what you get. Transported through a wormhole to a dimension where people take any notice to what David Torrance writes. ?

      Mr Torrance isn’t really any good at what he gets paid for (That’s about as kind and diplomatic an appraisal as anyone could ask). He’s somewhat politically biased (Oh is he ever). Has the empathy and societal insight of a frozen haddock. His idea of nuanced political thought comes right off the back of a comic and he basically writes pieces for soapboxes who more than wholeheartedly concur with his somewhat jaundiced and tunnel visioned worldview.

      He wishes the YES movement was falling apart. Of THAT I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever. He and a great many others in the Yoonitariat I’d say, and just exactly WHAT does that say about their priorities? When their system of government, their practice of politics, their media, their establishment and their ‘order’ have brought the populations of the UK to this cliff edge.

      Just what exactly does that tell you about them as human beings, hmmm?

      NEWSFLASH for unionists!

      I don’t care about twitter. I don’t care about snits between journos and writers looking to make a name for themselves. I don’t care what label either the likes of Mr Torrance or some ‘right on’ types in Holyrood or new meeja care to throw out there for the hard of thinking either.

      NEWSFLASH for those who would label who is fit for the YES movement.

      I, and a great many others were YES voters before there was a YES campaign. We supported the principle of independence, consensus, social justice, freedom of choice, respect for inalienable human rights and dignity long before it became ‘cool’ and ‘hip’. Oh, and we really don’t need anyone’s permission or labelling to tell us who we are or why we should support these ideals and concepts. As a matter of yer akchul fact, we don’t need to support any particular party or party politics either by the by.

      It’s called yer basic humanity and it belongs to NO PARTY whatsoever. We’re just people who care about other people.

      Pretty hardcore, right on and radical ah know, but ah live life right on the edge me.

      Fair enough to say I really, REALLY don’t enjoy watching the weans throw their toys aboot in a tantrum of self righteous fuckwittery on either side of this debate. Real people’s lives are in harms way. Real honest to God human beings are suffering and some folk out there are twisted enough to be enjoying this pain inflicted on others whilst some are a bit busy deciding just who is cool enough to be in a club they don’t own the rights to and don’t decide the rules of.

      Just so both of these wayward children know? I’m YES today. I will be YES tomorrow and I will be YES when it counts most.

      The wishful and demented thinking of one and the self righteous overthink of the other will not EVER change that.

    250. Ghillie says:

      Thank you Nana = )

      Smallaxe, quite bright here. Thing is, if we have mist or rain, that’s what the tourists hope for =) Proper romantic atmosphere. If the sun breaks through, it’s taps aff! So everyone wins! Hey! That’s Scotland for you !!

      Re Caltonjock’s article. Visited Dounraey in the late seventies. Being a young and right-on group, quizzed the PR Officer hard on safety ( in the wake of film ‘ The China Syndrome’ and later, accident at 3 Mile Island ) and secuity. They were not happy. Now I know why.

      On a happpier note, LOVE the idea of an unconditional Basic Income.

      I dream for and aspire to everyone having the freedom to care for their family and community and for the great unleashng of creativity and innovation! Would pay for itself very quickly. Oh! Can you imagine the release of tension and worry and adding to well being and happiness?! Priceless = )

      Have a really happy day folks = )

    251. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers:

      Robert said: “Until they( The SNP) have that clear mandate to assert the people’s sovereignty then they are legally powerless to use it. We, collectively, hold that legal sovereignty not the elected MPs, MEPs, MSPs or councillors.”

      Excellent point, Robert.

      That’s the problem: the SNP is don’t seek that mandate. They never ask for the mandate to declare Holyrood as the means of expressing the sovereign will of the people of Scotland.

      The SNP only seek a mandate for an indyref, with the effect that we are powerless unless the people vote for indy via an indyref. And a NO vote means we continue to be dominated by WM, so are forbidden express our sovereignty by WM.

      And the problem there is that the UK Govt are able to sow sufficient doubts about the merits of independence that No won in 2014 and it’s uncertain what the result would be if there were another indyref.

      Why polarise us into indy v Union? when the SNP could seek a mandate to exercise Scottish sovereignty at Holyrood. Something many No voters clearly want too.

      But the SNP never give voters that option by seeking that manifesto mandate. The SNP continually seek a mandate to administer WM devolution and seek a mandate for an indyref. Policies that have not brought us sovereignty in any shape or form.

      WM still dominates us.

    252. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      As Donalda keeks out from behind her door.

      We see what the BBC do. We know why the BBC do it. And we know what they are trying to achieve.

      What does puzzle me is how is their UKOK Union Forever SNPBaaad campaign actually orchestrated and directed?

      Not for one minute do I believe it is a few Unionists in a cliche acting on their own. Nor do I accept it is institutional culture. BBC London behaviour could be institutional culture with very few front line staff being directed on propaganda duties, however BBC Scotland is acting to a definite consistent agenda.

      Basically, what is the anti Indy propaganda chain of command?

    253. Ghillie says:

      Macart @ 9.55 am

      Yup. Many many of us were Yes long long before it was cool.

      So that DOES make us pretty hardcore, right on and radical = )

      And daft wee wannabe-noticed characters need to work on something worthwhile to say for a change.

      Ach, peace and love to them nonetheless =)

    254. Dear Stu,

      could you no put up a post about Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution,

      maybe have yersell a day off to go on Bear patrol and let one of the Wingers write the post,

      and then that post could be used by thems Wingers that want to discuss,debate,examine,thrash out and toss around their thoughts on Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution,

      it would both free up other posts from being derailed and be a useful tool for those interested in learning about Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution.

      Anyhoo,

      why? in the name of Thor`s Hammer did Michelle speak to the vermin/parasite BBC/MSM,has she never seen Judge Judy,

      Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me,

      Don`t talk to them! Sue the F#uckers,jeezo.

    255. Song42 says:

      @heedtracker. Totally agree!
      hope Mr Shand wipes the floor with them.

      Maybe this is why NTS decided to say or make excuse ‘Perhaps the tone was a bit harsh’

      ‘Hundreds of people have responded after he posted the letter on Facebook, including many NTS members threatening to cancel their subscription’

      Maybe they will offer him a Scottish souvenir plot of land and style himself as Lord or Laird of Glencoe. Idiots!

    256. Dorothy Devine says:

      Good morning Smallaxe , I hope the day finds you in good spirits.

      I have just been for a walk which always improves my mood along with the music playing in my head – Runrig and We will sing! seems to have stuck itself to my stride and I am not complaining.

    257. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      Death of retirement: Can the UK afford the state pension?
      http://archive.is/2OwTO

      ” The European Union collates the data on pension spending. On that measure, in 2020, the UK will spend 7.4% of its national income, or GDP, on state pensions. That puts us 25th out of 28 members, well below the average 11.2% of their GDP. …. Internationally, we are misers not spendthrifts.”

      I have heard it put another way … as a fraction of average income, EU pensions are two thirds at best, half on average, and one third in the worst countries. The UK is among the worst.

      There are several approaches to winning IndyRef2. Perhaps actually getting our voters and the young out on the day is the most important! However, I also think YES2 should make it clear that in iScotland as a priority we will have much better pensions in line with the rest of the EU.

      We shouldn’t fight with too many policies pre defined, but a few social plans representing the nature of the country we want, could be a winner.

      We can win over a lot of older NO voters by appealing to their wallets and purses!

    258. heedtracker says:

      Basically, what is the anti Indy propaganda chain of command?

      Its probably not a chain of command though.

      Its merely a tory dominated media culture, where everything and anything has to be lensed through the great UK tory propaganda network.

      BBC is the tory leader of all of it ofcourse. The press are like their shock troops, if only because who really knows who they are, despite their for photo bylines.

      Most effective tory media way for getting Scotland to back down, shut up and be tory British, does seem to be pretending Scotland simply does not exist. When something democratic like the 2014 ref1 happens, in the pile to destroy it all.

      Then its back to Scotland does not exist in teamGB, or normal BBC led tory media service resumes. This is what will happen for ref2.

      Its not rocket science. Ofcourse I have no idea if MI5 are in Pacific Quay. But they probably are because people still do have a sense of integrity, fairness and common decency, even some beeb liggers and they do have to watched over, by UKOK state apparatchiks.

      Who but the most zealot tory hack really wants to be a professional liar their whole working life. Look at the Torrance tory of the Herald today. He’s a tory zealot and the professional integrity of journalism means nothing to him.

      A good example of how media works, without getting into to a thesis is the owner of this blog taking Dugdale to court for slander.

      Arguing the right and wrong of it is one thing, Dugdale and chums will have sat and discussed whether or not to go after the WoS blogger, for all kinds of reasons.

      But ultimately, its a good, nae great thing for WoS because it will attract attention. That’s what its all about and that’s why its worth supporting.

      Media aint media if no one is watching it.

    259. Proud Cybernat says:

      YES movement imploding, the colonial meeja scream.

      Let me interpret that. If we keep saying “YES movement imploding” then maybe people will start to believe it and it might just actually happen because we keep saying it’s happening.

      It’s NOT happening. Not even remotely. The YES Movement is merely in a ‘holding position’ awaiting the IR2 starting gun to be fired. It can be frustrating for some. But just because one or two start tossing their toys around doesn’t mean, when the crunch comes, they won’t be supporting the YES campaign. Of course they will.

      This is all just ‘noise’. It’s all just white noise to deflect people away from looking more closely at something the colonial media woud rather you didn’t look too closely at. Aye – BREXIT.

      The mommyanddaddyofallcatastrophux.

      Oi farmers – look, nae subsidies for you after BREXIT. What you gonnae do? Never mind – look, YES movement’s imploding.

      Oi fisherfolk – Gove sold you down the river and sent you out to sea. Never mind – look, YES movement’s imploding.

      Oi everyone else – your job is at serious risk after Brexit. Just look at all those banks lining up to leave the UK. Just look at how much prices are shooting up in the shops (and Brexit hasn’t even happened yet). Just look at the chaos at airport passport control because you now have to queue to get into Europe (just like the good ol’ days).

      But hey – never mind. Look, the YES movement’s imploding.

      They fecking wish. BritNats aren’t the only ones who can invoke the ‘Spirit of Dunkirk’. Only thing is when the YES movement do so we do it with the realisation that a few short years after Dunkirk, we were back in Europe.

      IT’S INDY TIME.

    260. Marie Clark says:

      Nana @ 9.13 my feeling as well Nana, the sniping and backbiting is getting wearisome.

      Macart @ 9.55 Well said sir, bang on the money, doffs bunnet. I’ve been a YES since long before the Indy ref, and I will be until I pop my clogs. Although, I’m dodding on a bit, it is my sincere wish to see an Independent Scotland before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

      Proud Cybernat @ 10.37 I quite agree, the YES movement IS in a holding position at the moment. When the gun is fired we will be there doing our bit for OUR COUNTRY.

    261. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 7 August, 2017 at 5:20 am:

      “Yes Robert, but they were elected! The SNP with a manifesto for Independence held an outright majority in Holyrood and a virtual absolute and unparalleled majority of SNP MP’s at Westminster! They had the clear constitutional authority to enact Scottish sovereignty simply by winning office!

      Unfortunately that claim simply is not true

      “The democratic will of the Scottish people was to have a government which stood on a ticket for Independence!”

      That statement is true, though and we got a Scottish Government that is committed and now has a mandate to seek Scottish independence. It was not a mandate to exercise our legal sovereignty. That requires a specific 50%+1 minimum, (a majority of the adult population and they have not, (yet), had that majority.

      Furthermore the majority really needs to be only the specific matter of the people’s legal sovereignty. Anything short of that will have any move made by the SG fail in the international courts and even acceptance by the international courts falls short of World powers accepting Scottish sovereignty.

      The real World judges of any country’s right to be a sovereign nation is not Westminster or even the European Union. It is that country must be, above all, acceptance of their right to be sovereign by the World’s established nations.

      For starters we would need these nations to accept that the United Kingdom they have always accepted as a Unified country, is really a bipartite Kingdom and that bipartite kingdom has ceased to exist if/when the Kingdom of Scotland ends the Union.

      Their first reactions will most certainly be that they believe Scotland has, “Left the United Kingdom”, and the United Kingdom is a continuing entity. The Westminster Establishment has been fostering that particular false notion since long before the Union of the Crowns in 1603 and the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

      Scotland will be viewed as part of an existing unified nation breaking away from that unified nation and the World powers, (especially the USA under Obama), have put on record that they do not want Scotland regarded as a separate country and the USA are not alone in that wish.

      The USA best buddies in Israel, for example, will follow the USA lead. What of the other former English/UK colonies? Would they see the UK as still the remainder nation or as one partner of what they regard as, “Their Mother Nation”, or as a parted bipartite union of kingdoms?

      The real acceptance of any part of the World being accepted by the World’s nations are the established World governments and that includes many actual dictatorship leaders.

      Let me put it this way when will the World powers fully accept that Palestine, (which the World Powers broke up to accommodate the Jews after WWII), has a sovereign right to exist as a sovereign separate nation from the Israel that those same World powers created for the post WWII Jews?

      BTW: I’m not being anti Semitic. Just stating that the artificial creation of the country of Israel has remained a World problem since it was instigated by the WWII allied nations.

      As were the many states of the USSR that resulted from WWII and also a the unified Germany recreated in the wake of the break up of the USSR.

      All these examples show that it is the World Powers acceptance of a nation that bestows sovereignty and not the old idea that Sovereignty is conferred by a God in heaven via royal families.

    262. yesindyref2 says:

      What the likes of young David (Torrance) fail to understand is that the YES movement is like a myriad of magnetised particles. Scattered randomly, half attract each other and cling together making a stronger clump of magnetised particles, and half repel each other, going off in different directions but still highly charged.

      But shove a properly formed magnet under a bit of paper and sprinkle us over it from a great height, and we all make complete and very pretty patterns, with our personal magnetism intact and recharged by the big magnet.

      All we need is that magnet, and we’re ready to make art – and history.

    263. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh for an edit:

      “and we all fall into place, perfectly aligned, and make complete and very pretty patterns”

    264. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 5:30am ……. Petra that’s terrific news about the constitutional reappraisal, terrific right up until your last sentence, “…. Constitution for Scotland that can be readily understood, debated and agreed by the Scots before Scotland regains it’s Sovereignty.

      Face palm. Sigh. We have not lost our sovereignty. It cannot be removed from us. EVER. Not by our own vote, delegation, abdication, force, coercion, bribe, inducement, or threat. So how come Westminster managed to remove it to London? Simple answer, it never did. We don’t have to “regain” anything.”

      ……………………………………….

      Breeks it’s not MY last sentence. The sentence relates to Robert Ingram, Administrator at the Centre For Scottish Constitutional Studies.

      They say (on their website) ”Sovereignty means the supreme and independent political authority. Today, neither the UK nor Scotland are Sovereign. The Sovereignty of the UK was ceded to the European Union when the UK signed the treaty to become a member of the European Union.”

      They also advocate that we join EFTA rather than the EU to retain our Sovereignty.

      There is a simplified attachment on their site that you can download covering:

      1. Introduction

      2. Scotland’s current status

      3. Constitutional Principles in the United Kingdom

      4. Scotland’s Constitutional Principles

      5. Sovereignty and Self-­?Determination

      6. Sovereignty and Constitution

      7. Sovereignty and The People

      8. Sovereignty and Currency

      9. Sovereignty and the European Union

      10. Sovereignty and International Law

      11. Sovereignty in the Global community

      12. Definitions

      http://www.scottishconstitution.scot/
      …………………………………………

      ‘Sovereignty and The People:

      To provide democratic overview and sovereign ownership by the people, provision will be required in the Constitution of Scotland for the electorate to be empowered to provide their views by means of referendums. To determine “the settled will of the people” a series of referenda will be required following Independence.

    265. colin alexander says:

      Scot Finlayson said:
      7 August, 2017 at 10:24 am
      “Dear Stu,

      could you no put up a post about Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution,”

      Aye please, let’s have a big debate about it and hopefully get it sorted once and for all, instead of me and others trying to get this basic core issue addressed through other threads and being accused of disruption.

      But as it’s your blog Stu, it’s up to you. Cheers.

    266. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana Thats the 1st time i’ve listened to the full interview of Michelle Thomson she was lead by the nose into making statements she should otherwise avoided ie ( her friends having second thoughts of standing for election ) , perfect example of how to give your enemies ammunition.

      I think Michelle Thomson’s political careers at a end , all the indications I have from that interview are that she has no intention of taking legal action against the BBC & Corporate Media .

    267. Petra says:

      @ Scot Finlayson says at 10:24 am ….. Dear Stu, could you no put up a post about Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution, maybe have yersell a day off to go on Bear patrol and let one of the Wingers write the post, and then that post could be used by thems Wingers that want to discuss, debate, examine, thrash out and toss around their thoughts on Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution, it would both free up other posts from being derailed and be a useful tool for those interested in learning about Scottish Sovereignty and our future Scottish Constitution.”

      ……………………………….

      Scot check out my last post relating to Sovereignty.

      Additionally the Centre For Scottish Constitutional Studies are working on a provisional Constitution for Scotland through reviewing a prior draft Constitution from 2012.

      ”When the review is complete the intent is to seek to convert it to an Internet version and encourage National debate. The object of the review is to create an updated provisional Constitution for Scotland that can be readily understood, debated and agreed by the Scots before Scotland regains it’s Sovereignty” (Robert Ingram, Administrator, Centre For Scottish Constitutional Studies).

      In other words the Constitution / Sovereignty will be ”discussed, debated, examined, thrashed out and tossed around” online in the very near future you’ll be pleased to here, lol. As am I, I can assure you, as you’re right they constantly derail the thread / s.

      http://www.scottishconstitution.scot/

    268. colin alexander says:

      @Petra,

      Good work on posting the Scottish constitution link.

      There was no derailing of this thread; it’s mainly about an archived piece discussing the UK constitutional set up, so discussing sovereignty and Scotland’s role within or out of the Union is bang on topic this time, in my opinion.

    269. Petra says:

      Colin, Sovereignty has been discussed on the site before in particular when Stu posted the article ‘Sovereignty for Dummies’ and is archived. I’ve also posted the Scottish Constitutional link previously and a number of others have posted similar data. We can go round and round the garden discussing the Constitutional / Sovereignty issue for evermore, however it’s unhelpful to my mind. The focus should be on supporting the SNP, the only party that will get us our Independence, and posting data / facts to influence no voting / sitting on the fence type readers.

      The whole situation to me, simplified, relates to getting our Independence first via the SNP and then implementing our Constitution (written and ratified) which is being worked on right now. Talks will no doubt be going on in relation to the EU versus EFTA as is discussion about our future currency, a Central Bank, security, Military etc. There’s a great deal going on behind the scenes which we aren’t aware of (as per the number of Committees / people involved) which will be divulged as soon as we get a date for a Referendum. The bottom line however is that there will be no Referendum or Independence if we don’t get the numbers up. Constantly running the SNP down and discussing the Constitution / Sovereignty isn’t going to do that, imo, if anything it’s turning people against the SNP and the latter point is putting people off of the site altogether hence me posting the link at the end of an article and for the last time.

    270. Chick McGregor says:

      Dr Jim
      “Greens are not in the Independence movement, they’ve always just been backing a horse, sorry Green folk who’ve been duped into thinking differently”

      Sorry Dr Jim, not my experience.

      I’ve never been a member of the Greens, always only the SNP, but let me take you back to the mid naughties.

      In Holyrood 2003, the SNP suffered a major setback, losing nearly a quarter of their seats. This instigated much gnashing of teeth by the SNP and a sackcloth and ashes internal reappraisal by the party culminating in strong rumours, no doubt a test leaking, that independence itself was about to be dropped.

      Despite being a party member since the age of 16,I, along with many others resigned at that point. Dark times.

      On the other hand, the Greens were on a high, winning 7 seats, 6 more than the previous election.

      That is the backdrop set.

      In 2005 I became heavily involved in an organization called Independence First, the main aim of which, was to get an independence referendum and independence set firmly back on the agenda. In 2006 we organized out first march in Edinburgh. It was a success, being the largest political march on Holyrood that year.

      When IF was officially launched we emailed all Sottish MSPs for support.

      While we did get support from some individual SNP MSPs there was no endorsement from the leadership and no official party support. They only allowed individual SNP MSPs to support us if they chose to do so personally.

      Contrast that with the Greens where leadership support was immediate and a promise that official party support would be on the agenda at their Spring Conference, which it was and which passed.

      This at a time when the tide seemed to be against independence and when support for it was believed by many, even some within the SNP, to be negative in terms of party support.

      Whether our efforts in IF had any bearing on the matter or not the newly re-instated leader Alex Salmond put an indyref in the 2007 manifesto, won a minority government and obviated further need for IF.

    271. heedtracker says:

      Chick McGregor

      Problem is Greens in Scotland are not that Green.

      They feed off incredible European Green movements like in Germany, where Greens have more or less transformed one of the world’s greatest industrial powerhouses, in to an entirely Green energy nation.

      Its the kind of Green achievement that we need here in Scotland and yet the Greens here seem fixated on anything and everything but Green energy.

      Its clear that Harvie has great ambition for himself and the Green part and why not. UK politics are not federal German so maybe the only way to gain the trust of suckas like me, is the Scottish Greens to change their name.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_90/The_Greens

      Policy

      Energy and nuclear power
      See also: Anti-nuclear movement in Germany

      Anti-nuclear protest near nuclear waste disposal centre at Gorleben in northern Germany, on November 8, 2008.

      Eight German nuclear power reactors (Biblis A and B, Brunsbuettel, Isar 1, Kruemmel, Neckarwestheim 1, Philippsburg 1 and Unterweser) were declared permanently shutdown on 6 August 2011, following the Japanese Fukushima nuclear disaster.[18]
      From the inception of the party, they have been concerned with the immediate halt of construction or operation of all nuclear power stations. As an alternative, they promote a shift to alternative energy and a comprehensive program of energy conservation.

      In 1986, large parts of Germany were covered with radioactive contamination from the Chernobyl disaster and Germans went to great lengths to deal with the contamination. Germany’s anti-nuclear stance was strengthened. From the mid-1990s onwards, anti-nuclear protests were primarily directed against transports of radioactive waste in “CASTOR” containers.

      After the Chernobyl disaster, the Greens became more radicalised and resisted compromise on the nuclear issue. During the 1990s, a re-orientation towards a moderate program occurred, with concern about global warming and ozone depletion taking a more prominent role. During the federal red-green government (1998–2005) many people became disappointed with what they saw as excessive compromise on key Greens policies.

      Energy policy is still the most important cross-cutting issue in climate and economic policies. Implementation of Green Policy would see electricity generation from 100 percent renewable sources as early as 2040. The development of renewable energy and combined heat and power is also a great opportunity for technical and economic innovation.

      Solar industry and environmental technologies are already a significant part of key industries providing jobs which need to be developed and promoted vigorously. In addition, a priority of green energy policy is increasing the thermal insulation and energy efficiency of homes, the phaseout of all nuclear energy generation with possible high-efficiency gas-fired power plants operational during the transition phase.

      And Germany has a huge offshore wind energy industry today, offshore Germany but offshore everywhere.

      Instead back in teamGB, Green Ross Greer is in Scottish haha Green action today, taking down YES bigots of the Scotland region, why? probably not for Green issues I’d guess. We all know exactly who this twerp is having a pop at too.

      http://archive.is/epCtb

      ‘Yes bigots risk our cause’ Green Party’s Ross Greer says ‘cult-like’ behaviour is undermining hopes for indyref2
      The independence campaigner warned that so-called cybernats who spout venom online are undermining any hope of a future vote.

      15
      SHARES
      BYANDY PHILIP
      07:46, 7 AUG 2017

    272. Chick McGregor says:

      Heedtracker
      “Problem is Greens in Scotland are not that Green.”

      The Greens in Scotland are a completely separate party from the Greens in England.

      Scotland has a vastly better record on green issues than England. The almost total absence of on shore wind generation in England being one of the prime examples and a source of shame, embarrassment and bewilderment to the rest of the World.

      England is slap bang in the middle of the most optimum on shore wind generation region of Europe but point blank refuses to exploit it.

      The Germans have only embarked on the vastly more expensive off wind program after having exhausted their on shore capability. Even so, the even higher costs than expected have made them reign back on the program.

      The English off shore program, the largest in the World by miles, will eventually have a 30 GW capacity most of which could be generated if England chose to generate it on shore by simply going to the same kind of density as Scotland, Ireland, the Low countries, Germany and Spain which surround it.

      Their failure to do so stands out like a sore thumb.

      Off shore electricity generation costs more than twice as much as on shore. More than the farcical and inexplicably expensive Hinkley Point contract.

      A cost which will have to, and already is, being met by electricity purchasers throughout the UK whether by subsidy or electricity bill hikes.

    273. yesindyref2 says:

      @Chick McGregor
      Thanks for that, very interesting.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top