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Pups on parade

Posted on August 05, 2017 by

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    1. 05 08 17 08:57

      Pups on parade | speymouth

    214 to “Pups on parade”

    1. Croompenstein says:

      They will be ok though as they have 13 Tory MPs fighting their corner for Scotland…. 🙂

    2. Alastair says:

      Brilliant. Great start to the day .
      And they will leave a trail of piss and shit to clean up for years.

    3. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      The London and SE Infrastructure Money Tree comes up with the goods again.

      Last week we had 10s of £Billions announced for the N-S Crossrail and according to this morning’s BBC Breakfast we are told of a mere £800 Million to be spent on an upgrade for Waterloo.

      How much longer are we going to put up with this?

    4. Marker Post says:

      Love the cartoon.

      But there isn’t enough room for all the pups.

      You could have added the Scotch Whisky Association.

      And in fact, Scotland, as news of RBS plans to move some of its operations to Amsterdam. Nick Robinson still sticks in my craw.

      All of the above – the fishermen, the farmers, the SWA, RBS – has happened in the past month. Surely the writing is on the wall? Surely the 55% can see it now?

    5. Robert Louis says:

      Aye, yet again the fishermen of the North East of Scotland fell hook line and sinker for the bare faced liars of the Tory colonial overlords – helped along by the BBC lying propagandists. Simply refused to believe what the Scottish Government told them.

      I hate to say it, but as far as I am concerned, tough. These fishermen were told over and over again, Westminster couldn’t give a flying f*** what you want. Vote for brexit, and they will literally stitch you up like a kipper.

      So, I hope the good people of the North East of Scotland, who voted out 2 truly excellent hard working MP’s (Angus Robertson and Alex Salmond) enjoy their brexit future and useless Tory MP’s, where fishing is no longer controlled by Brussels, but by some Tory posh boy in London instead, who literally cares NOTHING about Scottish fishing.

      Well done voters of North East Scotland. The Tories sold away your fishing rights to the EU once before, and they are now doing it all over again. You truly, truly deserve everything that is coming your way. Good luck.

    6. jimnarlene says:

      Shouldn’t the farmer have a pig in a poke?

    7. Robert Louis says:

      Can I just ask, does the Scot Gov have the power to recall parliament? Getting very concerned that what appears to be happening is that the Scot Gov is being systematically removed from ALL decisions (including on devolved matters), whilst in recess.

      Need action, like ASAP. It cannot allow to pass unchallenged. A bit of backbone urgently required.

      The SNP should be all over this.

    8. Marie Clark says:

      How very apt Mr Cairns.

      As for the fishermen and the farmers, hell mend them.

    9. Fred says:

      “By Gove, fit a cairry-oan, we-ve been stitched up like a kipper ye ken!”

    10. Capella says:

      And yet the North East was the home of the SNP not so long ago. That would have been the fishing vote before Bertie Armstrong brought his NI influence to bear.

      The Tories have always supported the farmers. Many of them are farmers. So the calculation there will be that their subsidies will carry on as before. Nice depiction of a gentleman farmer there.

    11. Morgatron says:

      Brilliant Chris. I have long held these greedy self centred fisherman in distane , they deserve everything thats coming to them & i must admit I hope the shaft is even bigger than anticipated. You can already hear the wailing (good one) of the Judases with nets.

    12. cearc says:

      That’s a real beauty, Chris.

    13. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent Chris!

      These pups will be the offsprings of the big litter that was sold to us in 2014.

      Westminster can’t be trusted!

      That sounds like a good name for a campaign for IndyRef2. As well as talking up Indy, we need to put more effort next time into talking down their Union.

    14. Grouse Beater says:

      I drove past Ruth Davidson’s well decorated, in-yer-face, Tory constituency office yesterday, Chris. It sits next to a knocking shop – and there was no sign of life in either.

      When I hear her bluff and bluster in our Parliament there is no recognition of life as I know it. Cheered on by the British establishment, she is there to halt the progress of Scotland’s civil rights. Are we going to let her do that?

      What we need are women with integrity who care about the less fortunate, who want to build things, as Nicola does, people who don’t want to destroy society.

      I’ve written about one extraordinary woman.

      Your weekend reading:

      A Scottish heroine: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iGL
      Tesla’s latest leccy car: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iDf

    15. Robert Peffers says:

      Even by your normally astronomic standards, Chris, you have excelled yourself with that one.

      However, factually, adult dogs can be muzzled, kept on a tight leash and made to live in a Kennel in the yard.

      No such restraints have ever been able to be applied by the Scottish Kingdom to restrain our United Kingdom legal partners in this misnamed United Kingdom Parliament that has assumed it is our master and we are muzzled, kept on a short leash and living outside their home.

      To be fair, though, they do occasionally throw us the occasional scraps from their plate and I cannot recall them ever giving us a wee pat on the head or telling us we’re a good dog. More often than not it is a kick in the ribs, a good swearing at, and told we are a BAAAD dog.

    16. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 5 August, 2017 at 7:53 am:

      “Need action, like ASAP. It cannot allow to pass unchallenged. A bit of backbone urgently required.
      The SNP should be all over this.”

      I wondered how long it would take for the SNP to be blamed for everything here on Wings. I didn’t have to wait very long.

    17. T.roz says:

      Good cartoon, many large farmers have been getting it too good for a long time. They believed that getting away from the EU would mean less red tape, in fact the opposite is true. The uk is now going to have to prove that it’s produce is up to standard, that is costly. As for trade with the whole continent of America, good night scottish agriculture! Beef production here will be too expensive, lamb from NZ will flood in together with butter and dry milk. Scotland needs the clout which the EU delivers to make her produce competitive against the world markets. What a mess.
      By the way, in my area, most of the family farms voted to remain, it’s the big rich Tory farmers who voted leave and they have a lot of influence through the Tory party farming wing, more commonly known as th NFU?

    18. cearc says:

      Grousey,

      To my shame, I’d never heard of the lady. I wonder if Philippa Whitford has met her.

      Tesla. The summons is a great idea, appeals to me greatly. (glad about the leg humping though).

    19. Grouse Beater says:

      Cearc: “I wonder if Philippa Whitford has met her.”

      I sent her a copy.

      Spread the word!

    20. Graemeo Rab says:

      Not so much the British Bulldog anymore as a wee English Toy Spaniel gien a wee yelp.

    21. Golfnut says:

      I’m kind of at a loss to understand just how getting back control of the fishing rights actually financially assists the fishermen. Yes you might catch more fish, but just who exactly are you going sell them to if you don’t have trading agreements. Ok, you could flood the home market with cheap fish, but how does that improve the finances. It certainly won’t increase the fishing fleet, because the demand will actually decrease.
      The SG would have/ will have to negotiate with the EU when we bin Westminster, but that would be by a Scottish Gov, in conjunction with Scottish fishermen, protecting a strategic asset, not the shower of plankton currently doing their utmost to undermine the SG, and as far as we can see just giving away rights to Scottish waters.

    22. Stoker says:

      I feel sorry for those poor wee pups, what the hell have you done to them Chris?

    23. Brigadoon69 says:

      Totally agree Robert Louis

    24. Geoff Huijer says:

      Excellent! Just excellent.

      There were a farming couple on the Phantom Power videos (shown elsewhere here) that seemed switched on who I would feel sorry for but I struggle with the rest.

      As for the fisher folk – no sympathy whatsoever, although there will be workers who are undoubtably pro-indy. They do arguably one of the country’s most dangerous jobs so hats off to them there but selfishness is never an admirable quality. Neither is self destruction whilst taking others down with you.

      Mind you, fish is a luxury for me these days given the price whereas at one time I got haddock at least once a week.

    25. Brigadoon69 says:

      @Robert Peffers I didn’t think Robert Louis was blaming the SNP at all. Just pointing out that WM is putting the boot in to Scots affairs while our parliment is in recess

    26. Bob Mack says:

      I believe it was François de la Rochefoucauld who stated that “Intellect is always fooled by the heart”.
      The farmers and fishermen fit directly into that category. Their love of Union made them prime candidates to lapse into stupidity.

    27. Valerie says:

      Good one Chris.

      I literally couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the fishers or farmers.

      They campaigned for No, watched every Vow or promise collapse to Tory denial or laughter, then Voted Leave on the back of more Tory, Right Wing promises. They have made their bed.

      I care that this country does well, but these people don’t. THEY are voting for themselves, as individuals to hopefully do well, as is the Tory mantra – me first, last and always.

      It’s the height of stupidity, given their customers are their neighbours, but that’s how selfishness works.

    28. starlaw says:

      Graemeo Rab 9.26

      A King Charles Spaniel (-:

    29. HandandShrimp says:

      This where the fishermen and farmers discover their champions are nothing more than toadying, ineffectual lobby fodder too frightened to break ranks and stand up for the promises they made during the election. Col Mad Ruth McMad has been particularly quiet on the matter…although her making fun of May’s cornfield thing might suggest she is ready to back somebody else for leader.

      On the fishermen and farmers, are they, I wonder, like the elderly leave voters*? More than happy to take a hit to their pocket, even their livelihoods, simply to achieve Brexit?

      * I am expecting the elderly leave voters to be the first to moan like fuck when they realise this means that those nice Polish care workers that visited each day are no longer there to help them out of bed and into their clothes. Equally expecting the Daily Heil to lead with screaming headlines on the scandal of our neglected elderly.

    30. Pentland Firth says:

      There are a lot of angry posters this morning attacking farmers and fishermen, with only one pointing out that it tends to be big wealthy farmers who are fanatical Tory, Brexiteer, and No voters. Raging at people for voting the “wrong” way never persuaded anyone to change their minds. Let’s engage with them rather than denounce them.

      PS. Excellent cartoon as per usual from Chris.

    31. Marcia says:

      Pentland Firth

      Perhaps the Farmers for Yes might want to set up a rival to the NFU and be a voice for the small farmers.

    32. Valerie says:

      @Pentland Firth

      Where is the evidence that this sector can be engaged by anyone? The most important people HAVE engaged and supported them, the Scottish Government, and they continually spurn that.

      They are hard core Britnats, so how do we go about it? They use the Press frequently to declare their allegiance.

      I’m sure there is the odd Indy supporter among them, but they seem rare.

    33. T.roz says:

      Pentland Firth,

      Thank you, generalised farmer bashing like Valerie’s comment above is not helpfull. There are problems with agriculture, like large estates with many farming units owned by one absentee family. Or agri-business farmers taking on extra farms and grabbing more and more subsidies.

      Smaller single unit family farms are not the problem, they are EU tolerant and often Indy supporting.

    34. Chick McGregor says:

      Farmers and fishermen work very long hard hours and what little time they have for reading is taken up with form filling and getting up to speed with regulatory changes.

      On top of that, or perhaps because of that, there is also a recognized problem of much higher levels of dyslexia amongst the farming community (fishing?).

      What that means is that both groups have little spare research time to make themselves aware of the true facts and consequences of Westminster policies.

    35. Bill McDermott says:

      Don’t forget there is a difference in view within the fishing community. The people with the big boats from the North East are outright Tory/UKIP, supported by Bertie Armstrong but the West Coast creelers are all for the EU because they are wholly reliant on the continental market.

      Also within the North East fishing community there is a huge split between the catchers and the processors.

    36. donnywho says:

      Agreed that calling them out and dipping all farmers in tar”n”feathers is not the way to convert them. Satisfying as it might be.

      I ask you how you feel when you realize you have been taken for granted, manipulated and lied to?

      Because if we call them fools and selfish then they will just bury their heads in their prejudices and harden their hearts.

      Call an Orange man marching down the street a Bigot he will forcefully deny it and give you a wee slap so you understand. He does not want his world view, no matter how strange, challenged.

      Sympathize with him over being abandoned by his beloved Britain and you might get him to listen.

      And this is where we should go with the Fishermen, sympathy and a shared sense of outrage, they don’t need to have their noses rubbed in it.

      A common cause a belief that Westminster cannot be trusted, these are the seeds that need to be planted, watered and nurtured.

      You are an idiot and should be punished is not going to achieve anything, other than a moments vicarious pleasure.

      Them coming to that moments realization that they have been conned that will be Beautiful… and as we know a converts zeal is unstoppable, especially if the said convert, feels betrayed by his former friends!

    37. Ken500 says:

      Twa millionaire farmer Tory MP, MSP. Not declaring subsidies in financial interests. £100,000? MSP worth £2Million. Income £1/2Million + subsidy + MSP remuneration + expenses. Claiming farmers receive £12K on average. All NE Tories claim in Parliament they support education. The Tory/Unionist council is trying to cut it £Millions. They have cut specialist teachers, bases and other support. They plan to cut rural schools. They blame the SNP for forty years of unionist fishing policies. The fisherman overfished the seas threw back more dead fish than they caught. They did not use bigger nets like the Norwegians. They were destroying their own industry. Any Gov would have brought in conservation measures.

      Scottish Gov 2000. SNP Minority Gov 2007.

      People in the NE did not come out to vote. They became complacent. Some people never learn. Now Tory dominated ACC. Leader is one of the nine disgraced non Labour councillors. The SNP has the biggest number of councillors. Frozen out by the unionists who have ruined the City. £Billions in debt.

      Some people never learn. Vote Labour get Tory. Alex Salmond did more for the NE in five years than the unionists did in fifty. AWPR, airport expansion, the Golf Development, harbour expansion, etc. Brought more capital investment to the NE than any other politician.

      The NE sold out by the unionists for over fifty years. CCS projects reneged upon. Oil & Gas revenues mismanaged and misused. Over taxed. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Brexit will affect the NE the most. Disadvantaged.

    38. Ken MacColl says:

      Hasn’t Bertie Armstrong gone all quiet?
      The Express and Mail’s attention appears to have been diverted to important topics like Sir Mo Farah and Princess Diana. They don’t seem to have much to say on this.
      They fooled you once, shame on them- they look to fool you twice, shame on you.
      By the time the pups get their eyes open the dastardly deed has been done.

    39. Dan Huil says:

      Superb. One of your best, Chris. [Aren’t we due another book of your cartoons?]

      Now is the time for pro-indy fishermen and farmers to speak out louder.

    40. Morgatron says:

      T.roz
      Spot on Valerie . Engage with what? They have had many opportunities to engage and have been duped before. This isnt a new phenomenon, they deserve everything thats coming to them . You think taking the PC moral highground with these selfish balloons will make any difference you are on another planet?
      They sold their SOLE.

    41. Ken500 says:

      Many farmers and fishermen support the SNP. Many realises the drawbacks and hardship of Brexit etc. Many make large donations to the SNP. They are supporters of Independence and see the advantages. They have worked with the SNP Gov reps and helped bring in the changes to larger nets leading to higher quotas etc. There are very enlightened folk among the rural communities. Innovation and better methods are supported. The Westminster unionist took subsidies given to poorer farmers by the EU. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest subsidy in the EU.

      Scotland is self sufficient in food, drink and energy. Worth £Billions in exports. Scotland could benefit from EU CCS and renewable grants. Blocked by Westminster indecision. Reneging on promises. Longannet CCS project. Peterhead CCS Project etc. Scotland could house CCS projects for the whole of Europe. Wind, wave and solar energy. Scotland has the best natural facilities in the world for renewables and innovation. Great university, education sector.

    42. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Donnywho said.

      Magic Chris. Just wonder how many farmers & fishers will begin to see that Britain doesn’t work for them, that they’ve been sold a pup?

    43. Ken500 says:

      Mad Cow came from Alabama. Cost £Billions of public money. 10 years of lost beef products exports.

      Typhoid from Argentina

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      It is probably fair point that only a small number of fairly wealthy Tory landowners were responsible for all the No Thanks and Tory signs in fields. It does rather give an impression of hegemony if not actually the case on the ground.

      The wealthy landowners have a reputation for bullying tenant farmers too.

    45. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ken MacColl at 11.27

      Is’t Mo Farrah one of those pesky immigrants?

    46. Scott says:

      Ken 500.
      True what you say its all there for you to see if you search CAP payments including this one.

      FRASERBURGH £14,782.99 £86,886.45 £0.00 £101,669.44

    47. Valerie says:

      Didn’t the folk of the North East communities make their feelings clear, when they kicked out Salmond and Robertson, in June?

      I’d like to know how that makes them open to persuasion. They have their Tory MPs and MSPs, to look out for them now.

      I know that some farmers struggle, especially the poorer, difficult hill farms, that get EU subsidies, but we will all suffer as HMS Brexit slowly sinks.

      There is only so much info to be thrown at the 30% Britnat crowd that will spend any amount of money, preventing Scotland’s independence.

    48. T.roz says:

      Morgatron,

      Are you talking about fishing? I was talking about farming.

    49. Ken500 says:

      Check out interests of NE Tory MSP – MP. Debate on fishing called by Chapman. Blaming SNP for 40 years of unionist fishing policies. It is all documented. Statement as new MSP Mason. Rambling nonsense. The Tories cut Education funding in Aberdeenshire. Planning to cut £Millions more. If they can get away with it. Backed by the LibDems. Blocked the AWPR for over 30 years. Traffic chaos. The only City in Europe without a by-pass road.

      Chapman called Andy Wrightman, a ‘nasty, little man’ for calling out the subsidies. £100,000? Not declared. Interests declared.Worth £2Million. (3farms) £1/2Million income + MSP remuneration + expenses. Claims on average farmers receive £12K of remuneration?

      The Scottish Gov should publish the CAP subsidy payments. In the interest of openness. The EU Grants etc.

    50. Proud Cybernat says:

      I wonder how many 2014 NO voters will realise that had they voted YES in 2014 there would be no need for RBS to relocate a big chunk of its business to Amsterdam and, in so doing, likely costing thousands of job losses in Scotland & the UK?

      Oh but Scotland trades more with the rUK than with the EU. Really? Well try telling that to RBS–clearly they don;t think so.

      Will these 2014 NO voters even care? Will they simply think its better that they, their friends and family lose their jobs than be taken out of the UU (UK Union)? Better to be in the UU and impoverished than wealthy in the EU?

      Really?

      I mean REALLY?

      Soft NO voters / Devo-Maxers–it’s not too late to quit this self-harming nonsense. IndyRef TWO–you know what to do.

    51. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T

      “The UK needs to be better prepared for a “no deal” Brexit to show Brussels there is a “credible” alternative should the negotiations fail, a former Bank of England governor has said.”

      “Lord King of Lothbury said failing to agree a trade deal with Brussels was “not the first preference of anybody”, but more work needed to be done to show the European Union that the UK was serious about walking away if there was no agreement.”

      http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uk-should-be-better-prepared-for-no-deal-on-brexit-says-ex-bank-governor/ar-AApsfBL?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

      Aye, blame those damned unreasonable foreigners trying to punish good old Blighty.

      The Dunkirk Spirit will see us through nae doot.

    52. Valerie says:

      @Ken500

      Good point about Andy Wightman. I watched that in Holyrood. The Tories were creating hell about late subsidy payments, so Wightman wanted to ask Chapman if he had received all of his payments, or what proportion, and the Tory was raging, and responded by insulting Wightman.

      Let’s not forget the vested interests ranged against Wightman, and the impending court case against him.

      Even though that annoying wee arse Greer, decried The National, who gave him a platform, the previous week, I will donate what I can for Andy Wightmans case.

    53. Foonurt says:

      Sellt uz wan.

      Hoo diz New Zealand carrie-oan, withoot subsidies?

      Ah wunnurr if awe thurr dykes, huv kissing-gates.

    54. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Tenant farmers are more likely to be Yes (and smaller family farms are actually the model the EU supports the most.

      It’s the Range Rover driving farm owners/land owners who are only in it for the subsidies who are the Tories.

      They put the big ‘No Surrender to Referendums if you vote Tory’ signs in their parks regardless of who was the tenant.

      Aye the Fish processors and Tenant Farmers of ‘The Blue Corner’ who trusted Westminster and tRuthless’s Torys will suffer.

      But will the land owners and the boat owners?

      Will they just hike prices and rake in a fortune when the 30% of foodstuffs coming from the EU dries up?

      What happens when the ‘bread’ of ‘bread and circuses’ becomes too expensive or rationed.

      What then people?

    55. Alex Clark says:

      Cheers Chris.
      How long will it take though for large numbers of Scottish fishermen and farmers to come to realise that they have been sold a pup?

      In the fisherman’s case maybe not too long, now that Gove has started the softening up process by revealing to the Danes that there would always be room for their fishing boats in the UK sector of the N. Sea. The softening up was always going to come, Gove says we’re to wee to do it by ourselves anyway.

      As an example of fishermen being lied too and given false hope the last news article published on the SFF website was from 13th July. As there’s nothing yet to be found from Gove, maybe Armstrong only reports the good news on their website?

      Responding to the publication today of the UK Government’s Great Repeal Bill, chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation Bertie Armstrong said: “As far as fisheries are concerned, the Great Repeal Bill is the first legislative step towards full UK control and management of its own waters.

      http://www.sff.co.uk/great-repeal-bill-first-step-full-uk-control-waters/

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      It might be worth some analysis of the farming sector in Scotland, perhaps Andy Wightman style. I found: “2013 figures show 24% of land and 29% of farms were rented” but the SG have been trying to halt the decline in tenant farming (from over 90% in the 19th Century.

      http://www.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S4/SB_14-52.pdf

      It could be presumed I think that not all owned farms are properly farmed, and that perhaps tenant farms tend to be smaller and a little more labour intensive – but that since rent is paid, efforts could be much higher to cover the rent, costs, and make a living out of it. So perhaps the number of voters amongs the 29% of farms tenanted actually contain a higher percentage of the electorate than that 29%. In addition a lot of owned farms are still small, though probably over the minimum economic 10 acres that emerged throughout the sad farming suicidal 80s.

      From what I’ve seen over the past 4 years from the NFUS and a farming sector mag whose name I forget, during Indy Ref 1, these tenants and small farm owners would tend to be more YES voters – or open to YES. They particualrly were hit by the infamous Carmichael and the Scottish Office agreeing that the 4 countries of the UK share the Pillar 1 (and Pillar 2) CAP convergence uplift back in 2013/14, rather than giving it all to Scotland where it belongs. There was a stink about this, and it wasn’t silage.

      Then there’s the percentage of owners that might get CAP and do a little farming to justify that CAP, but largely leave the land for other purposes – or none. In theory they’d be Tory and NO types, but money is money, and if they are set to lose out on CAP because of Brexit, they could also easily move to YES.

      Like all other sectors,, no generalisations can be made, and it seems to me that 100% of the People of Scotland should be targetted, even if less than others, including the likes of Ruth Davison, Kezia Dugdale and Oor Wullie.

      There ain’t no such thing as a NO voter, only someone who has not yet decided we’d be better off Independent.

    57. Dr Jim says:

      There used to be a lot of poor farmers and fishermen before the EU

      Why do supermarkets in Scotland sell milk that’s been brought from Inglind when we’re surrounded by the stuff right here

      Why do supermarkets in Scotland sell fish that’s been brought from Inglind when we’re surrounded by the stuff right here, my personal favourite ridiculous item is Yorkshire Brook Trout sold by Morrisons

      Trout! freaking Trout! ye cannae move for the buggers in Scotland and we’re importing them from somewhere else
      Salmon from Norway, eh whit! somebody’s mentally having a laugh at us
      Why do supermarkets in Scotland sell Lamb from anywhere else when our hills are crawling with sheep, cows, goats when every freaking animal we might want to eat grows right here

      Then the Brits think we’re that stupid we’ll love it because they slap a Union Flag on it to make us proud to be British

      Support your local farmers they say and I do because I buy nothing with the Imperial flag on it, but I don’t like it when our own farmers and fishermen are ripping the pish out of us by playing two timing politics just for the sake of instant cash right now and sod the rest of us

      They’re not stupid and uninformed they’re just greedy grasping money grabbers
      They’ll be typing away on their Apple macs or jumping into their new Range Rovers to come and give me a row next but they won’t get me coz I’ll be sitting in Costa Coffee drinking my Latte with imported milk from Inglind that comes in a van,… in a van!…… (Aye that’ll be right)

      The EU must’ve been a terrible burden to them

    58. tiderium says:

      This website is factually incorrect and very confusing.

      http://www.mcneillandstone.co.uk/ruth-davidson.html

      http://www.mcneillandstone.co.uk/kezia-dugdale.html

      Had to type kezia’s name in and doing the same for nicola brings a 404 error as does doing the same for alex-salmond and angus robertson.
      Searching for john swinney brings up http://www.mcneillandstone.co.uk/john-swinney.html but its a profile of ian mcdougall with a blurb about jill murphy.

      the best one yet http://www.mcneillandstone.co.uk/iain-gray.html

      give it a go with more politicians.

      http://www.mcneillandstone.co.uk/willie-rennie.html brings up a profile of mike rumbles?

    59. Juan P says:

      Any farmers or fishermen able to explain what the industry thinks the benefits of Brexit will be?

      I see a lot of debates on the NFU Scotland twitter feed along the lines of ‘Great debate on Brexit”.

      I never see though any links, transcripts, or details of what was so great about the debate or the supposed advantages/disadvantages of Brexit.

      The NFUS seem completely unable to pick a side on the Brexit debate which is bizarre given how important the issue of delayed subsidy payments has been in recent months.

      It’s a bit like a trade union for public servants being neutral on austerity and public sector pay cuts.

    60. Max Malinois says:

      Not all fishermen or fishing associations came out backing any party. An association that represents 200 to 300 men can’t and shouldn’t represent individual political beliefs, they need to work with all politicians. I personally know many who supported independence, the EU issue was always more complicated. Many fishermen on the West Coast export over 85% of their fish to the EU, tariffs and lack of free trade on leaving the EU can only hurt them, mind you the CFP was terrible for them too. Many of the West Coast and Island fishermen have a completely different approach, that’s why they have started their own Fisheries Alliance focused on the wider benefit of communities. Please don’t assume all fishermen think the same, knowing the West Coast and the Islands it’s a different picture all together, and always has been.

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyway, that was a scot gov paper, and perhaps the farming sector has is own surveys, for the “official” view.

      From personal quite a lot / some / a little / second-hand, knowledge of a few dozen small farmers, mostly owned, some local, some all round Scotland (I like to talk and listen and get the local craic) they are NOT running around in the latest model Discovery sitting on the tail-gate with the champers and vol au vents and pate de foies, they are struggling, and many have second jobs totally outside farming, like working in shops, restaruants, cafes, cleaning self-catering cottages at changeover time.

      My personal totally wild arsed guess of the actual percentage of filthy rich farmers is less than 10% of those in the farming sector, maybe less than 5%.

      Leaving 95% who are very likely potential YES voters, just the same as all the rest of us punters.

    62. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T (Kind of).

      I had a good laugh this morning. A lady, (of more mature years), and a life long Indy activist spoke to me by my gate as she walked her wee dog.

      She was raging at the news the Labour Party Scottish Accountancy Unit is, (pun intended), cribbing about the Baby Boxes again and claiming that there should be help for those who want to Brest Feed their new born.

      Her first complaint was that breast feeding equipment comes as normal female physiology so no need for help to provide it but she conceded that perhaps, nipple shields and creams might help.

      Her real point was that there was actually more than just new classes of mothers. Besides those who favoured bottle feeding and those who favoured breast feeding there were mothers who wanted to breast feed but were unable to manage to do so or who were, due to temporary health reasons, not immediately able to do so.

      The lady is a Scots speaker and her diatribe went something like this:-

      “Ye wad jalousie yon gyte numpties wad mibbies ken ye canna pit twa breests intil a boax wi’oot a wet nurse ahint thaim. An if they wur tae dae yon they wad need a puckle sicht bigger bliddy boax”.

    63. colin Alexander says:

      YES V NO

      REMAIN V lEAVE

      The use of referendums at first sight seems the most democratic way of settling matters.

      The reality is that it allows the competing camps to make false assertions with no accountability.

      I could list the many false promises of NO, but the most pertinent one just now is: “a NO vote guarantees Scotland’s EU membership”.

      Leave told us: £350 million a week extra for the NHS.

      The use of referendums allowed the electorate to be conned.

      If Scottish independence is again decided by referendum, the same tactics will be used again. Project Fear 2 will ride again with no accountability necessary when it’s a referendum.

      A referendum is only an indication of public will anyway, it is not binding on WM MPs.

      The people were sold a pup in 2014. Again with Leave or Remain.

      They’ll be sold a pup again if there is another indyref.

      Indyref should be abandoned and independence should be achieved by elections, with all pro-indy candidates standing under a single YES “party” manifesto: a vote for me is a vote for independence.

      No candidates for administration of WM devolution govt.

      If we win the election, Scotland becomes dependent. Fresh elections will be held to decide the policies for the Govt of an independent Scotland AFTER independence has been chosen.

    64. Meg merrilees says:

      Listening to Any Questions on the radio just now – total breakdown… audience shouting, voices raised, compere unable to control and some guy Nigel (not Farage) completely slagging off Corbyn. Audience noise deafening.

      Definitly not a Tory supporting crowd.

      Previously some american-accented woman was slagging off socialism as the root of all evils because of what is happening in Venezuela ( obviously hasn’t heard of despotic dictators who can bring down a country through selfishness which of course is not a Socialist tendency).

      Great cartoon.

      What a mess for those fisherfolk who want to remain. Although my cousin ( from Peterhead) said something about the 12 mile limit always having been enforced before we joined the ‘EU’ and that it could only ever go back to the 12 mile exclusion. I think the older, smaller boats/crews know that but Armstrong’s lads have told mistruths.

    65. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      Brilliant, bull’s eye! Brexit is really going to the dogs …

    66. Capella says:

      @ Meg merrilees – it is obviously “get Venezuela (and by implication, socialism) week” on the BBC.
      R Scotland attempted to discuss it this morning with a very right wing neo-liberal type damning socialism while lauding free markets as a great boon to humanity.

      No mention of CIA interference in S. American affairs, of course.

      Craig Murray has a good critique of what is happening in Venezuela now.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/08/of-venezuela-and-hypocrisy/

    67. tom kane says:

      Magical, Chris. Just fab.

      What I like is the space for pathos that you leave. The fishers do need some control back, and Westminster has so few chips to work with … But they used the fishers so well… as an excuse to Natbash and Eurobash, and now they have so cashed in the authority the fishers gave them at the big table in Denmark. First, we can’t even process all our fish, so why don’t you, as long as you’re nice to uk; who cares about all the scuppered Scottish boats, and all the ruined livelihoods? … And second, it’s only Westminster you Europeans need to deal with… we’ll let the Scottish Parliament know whenever we get round to it… In fact, we’ll just leave it for bloggers and our friends in the press to tell them.

      Fishers have every right to be angry… As do farmers… Thanks for not just sticking it to them Chris… It’s all in the puppery.

      Respect.

    68. Hamish100 says:

      Good wee article in the National from Dave McEwan Hill on how Dunoon and Cowal area of Argyll set up their Forward shop ( note not SNP) and more importantly kept it going.

      Each area must organise what is suitable for them but Dunoon and Cowal have shown how it’s done.

      Dave, his friends, colleagues and local Councillors put their words into action.

    69. Hamish100 says:

      OT

      Quite clear that the SFF are in cahoots with the Tories. Look at their tweets all Mundell, Bertie “No Surrender” Armstrong

      The Scottish Fishing Federation state that their aims

      “Preserve and promote the collective interests of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation constituent associations.
      Ensuring a viable and sustainable future for the fleet in terms of both economics and environmental responsibility.
      Working to improve the perception of the fishing industry……”

      Does this square with giving up rights to the English and Danish fleets?

      Seems to me the SFF has been taken over by a right wing cabal. Scots fishing folk fight back– the Tories and Armstrong are selling you out.

    70. Chick McGregor says:

      Hamish100
      One of those involved in the Dunoon shop was/is a pal of mine.

    71. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It’s funny, but back during indyref1, we were regularly beset with all those scary stories in the media about how businesses were going to decamp en masse to Inglind if we humble peasants dared to vote for indy.

      Now, how things have changed, even if perceptions have not. Very many businesses (especially financial) are now making actual preparations to move at least part of their operations over to the Continent in the expectation of Brexit (whatever kind it is being sold as), yet you hear nary a peep of that reality from the media. Including the ones whose funding comes directly out of our own pockets.

      Without full and free information on what is truly going on, far too often members of the public (including farmers and fishers) are unaware of the realities. OK, in many cases they are actively willing to remain ignorant, since their prejudice is more comfortable to them than the unpalatable truth. Until it’s all too late.

      But when reality does finally intrude, we need to be able to show them that independence does provide a viable alternative, and it’s not too late after all.

    72. Dr Jim says:

      There seems to be a presumption that Farmers and fishermen aren’t all that bright and were duped
      Well some of them like any of us may be duped from time to time, but I refuse to accept the notion they all, or most of them fell for a con by the Tories on Brexit

      I believe they know exactly what they think they’re doing,
      both ends against the middle comes to mind and that’s the dangerous game they’ve chosen to play while the rest of us pay the consequences, and that’s why I have no sympathy

      If there are good guys amongst these folk it’s time their voices got louder

    73. Dr Jim says:

      The Pakistani guy the Tories will kick out if they can:

      Who cares about gay rights they chose to be that way so live with it

      That’s what we hear from the Tories and many Unionists, we all know the ones, but here’s what they don’t get, you don’t have to like them, talk to them, or think about them if you don’t want to, but what you do have to do is fight tooth and nail for their human rights to be who they are because if you don’t you’ll allow the people who would remove those rights to come for you next because they don’t like something about you

      And we’ve seen that before

    74. Wullie B says:

      As a Remain/Indy voting fisherman, I am sick fed up trying to preach to those idiots who voted leave, they would rather cut their noses of to spite their faces, No Markets, Who care, Johhny Foreigner cant fish our waters or no more CFP for us, Yes as has been pointed out, the creelmen were vastl;y pro Remain on the west coast, many of the small inshore crab boats owned on the east coast are owned by the same owners of the bigger family vessels, and are blinded again .
      I warned a lot of Wingers that this would be the case back pre Brexit and General Election but was decried, does that give me a smug warm feeling? does it feck, as for older fishermen being vastly pro Brexit, another fallacy, I know more remain voters in the older age group on the east coast than I do current fishermen, but things are not all plain sailing as an email from Fishing For LEave that I copied/pasted to the good rev yesterday showed

      ” Michael Gove’s comments astonishing and disappointing

      Secretary of State Michael Gove’s comments to the Danish fishing industry are astonishing and disappointing. His comments indicate the government would allow the EU to retain the current shares of resources and access to UK waters given under the EU Common Fisheries Policy even after Britain leaves the EU!

      Despite the continued meetings, engagement and reassurances Fishing for Leave have been given in London since the referendum Mr Gove’s comments abroad are flabbergasting as they suggest the governments position sadly contradicts the domestic pronouncements.

      FFL will be writing to Mr Gove seeking immediate justification on his statements of the governments position which do little to assuage fears and accusations that some in the Conservatives will sell out British fishing again to appease the EU rather than defend a £6.3bn national interest and coastal communities that were sold out to join.

      No Legal Need to Give Access or Resources

      Article 50 and International treaty law allow Britain a clean slate and an automatic repatriation of all waters and resources with no obligation to continue current access and allocations which are given under the EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP).

      There is no diplomatic need for the Government to give access or resources in UK waters. Upon leaving the EU has agreed through Article 50 that the “treaties shall cease to apply” and therefore so too will all EU law. Including the CFP and the rights of access to UK waters and all current shares of fisheries resources under the CFP which are disproportionately weighted against the UK.

      Not only has the EU agreed a clean slate but there will be no acquired rights of access or resources to honour under International Treaty Law. Article 70 of the Vienna Convention deals with acquired rights saying: “the termination of a treaty does not affect any rights, obligations or legal situations created through the treaty ….unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree”.

      Quite clearly the EU has agreed through Article 50 that all treaties, and therefore laws and rights, will cease to apply and therefore can’t claim acquired rights.

      Although there will need to be co-operation with our neighbours with fair share outs, just as Norway and Faroe do, it seems diplomatically and politically self-harming to suggest that things will continue as is.

      As Fishing for Leave has continually stated the only way Britain cannot regain all our waters and resources and exercise control and access to them is if the Government gives them away again.

      As FFL warned the disastrous Conservative manifesto wording meant only waters out to 12nm would be reclaimed and that there is a difference between having control of waters and how it is exercised.

      Although FFL were accused of “shadowboxing” and nitpicking, Defra’s comments now seem to confirm that the government will only exercise Exclusive rights out to 12 miles and run some sort of continued CFP in the rest of our waters.

      There is Not a Lack of Capacity

      The information Mr Gove has been briefed, that Britain doesn’t have the capacity to harvest our own resources, is misleading in the extreme.

      The disastrous CFP has shackled and starved our industry of its own resources as EU vessels catch 59% of the fish in British waters as the UK industry has struggled to survive.

      Therefore, under a fit for purpose UK policy the British fleet can easily harvest the fish the EU fleet it otherwise taking for free.

      Even if the UK fleet didn’t have the short-term capacity, the priority should be to husband and utilise our own nations resources to build our industry and communities back up, not just forgo them to the EU.

      International fisheries law under UNCLOS 3 says; “Where a coastal state does not have capacity it shall … give other states access to the surplus” BUT UNCLOS also says; “the state shall determine the allowable catch in its waters” and “its capacity to harvest the resources”.

      If the British fleet couldn’t harvest all resources the government can reduce catch limits which would have a conservation effect as we rebuilt our fleet to harvest our sustainable limits rather than let the EU exploit our stocks for free.

      Domestic politics would suggest the government use the mandate of the Brexit vote to look out for our country’s interests first rather than appeasing the EU.

      Fishing is one of the acid tests, the Conservatives won coastal constituencies in Scotland by overturning huge SNP majorities due to the SNPs pro-EU stance as fishing communities hoped Conservative rhetoric would be matched by results.

      Fishing for Leave will be seeking justification from the Secretary of State regards his comments as we write to him and meet with him again in 2 weeks time.”

      Looks like they are finding out the Tory Brexit supporters dont need the fishermen to get the working mans support anymore, Job done and dropped

    75. Meg merrilees says:

      Wullie B

      Thank you for helping us all to understand some of what is actually going on in the fishing community. We’re at the mercy of media reporting which is not always reliable.

      The east/west divide must be really frustrating and it is yet another result of this stupid divisive WM government.
      That the worst lies are being told by Scottish ministers – Gove, Fox and Mundell makes it all the more galling.

      We will endure tho…

    76. yesindyref2 says:

      The thing is that a lot of people are still wrapped up in their warm cosy cocoon “we’re part of the Union and Westminster will protect our interests”.

      So you have fishers who supply the tables of London thinking their market will remain with Brexit, but go with Indy. Well, Canada is already looking to move into a lot of markets in the UK that is controlled via the EU, and fishing is one of them.

      What will happen is that in return for access to the tables in London for their salmon and whatever else, 6 Type 26 frigates will be built in Canada by Canadians and Clyde workers that have been poached from the Clyde, but hey, the price of the other 5 Type 26 the MOD would like for the UK but can’t afford, will go down so they can afford them.

      So the UK gets its 8 Type 26 frigates, and Canada takes away the fish market. Which is OK because all the EU is fishing out the waters anyway, as part of the deal to get, errrr, something. Same goes for any of the other comfort blankets the Indy opposing and Brexit supporting industries are wrapping around themselves, covering the whole body including eyes and ears. Meanwhile what can be heard is:

      Fourteen farming groups, including the National Farmers Union of Scotland and Scottish Land & Estates, called on ministers to manage emerging “uncertainties” and secure an initial transition period virtually identical to the current EU regime.

      Their joint statement demanded a transition phase after March 2019 which retained “unfettered access to European markets” and kept the UK inside the customs union.

      They also said the government must put in place “a fully functioning immigration system” before freedom of movement ended to ensure farmers had access to foreign labour.

      It said “certainty in the short term” would let farmers prepare for new free trade agreements.

      To which many denizens of Wings would snort contemptuously and say “What new free trade agreements?”.

      One of the hardest things anyone can do is admit they – we – have been taken in, fooled, even made fools of. Fishers and farmers are no different. Meanwhile I daresay New Zealand lamb and New Zealand cheddar will be back on the supermarket shelves real soon now. After all, they too will need frigates, some time in the future, to be built in NZ of course.

    77. Wullie B says:

      Hi Meg,
      The lies and mistruths are worst from the Sots themselves, just like 1706 when the union of parliaments was being talked about, many have tried to cash in on 30 pieces of silver .
      The problem is, an Ulster Orangeman is at the forefront of the white fish boats in Scotland, your man Bertie No Surrender Armstrong, and he has certainly helped peddle Yoon propaganda, that this will be so great , but a lot of the problems that fishermen have were caused by Richard \Lochhead and his quest for MPAs and SACs.
      He helped lose any support the Scottish fisherman had for the ScotGov, as he didnt listen to the industry and this has also helped stoke the fires of Tory support getting a larger foothold, back in the 80s Winnie Ewing and Alex Salmond did a lot of good getting the support, and when in 2001/2 when the cod quota was cut, Lochhead helped support the Cod Crusaders from Fraserburgh, This was at a time when the likes of Elliot Morley was in charge of quota talks in Brussels, the TV show Gutted showed what was happening, Scots boats going to get chopped up in Grenna, the December talks when Scots representation was locked out of the room, and a wee fat Penfold walking out saying they got the best deal possible, 100 boats consigned to the scrap heap when Spainn was getting 100% funding for new builds, the last funding Scotland had ended in 1984 when the HIDB stopped giving grants to the west coast to update the fleet(My father also had one of these grants as we had moved to the west coast by then, my father has called out friends from the industry who voted leave because of their short sightedness, tarriffs, lorries getting inspected instead of being able to drive straight to foreignmarkets but to no avail.
      Also the EU hasnt done itself no favours, 60% of fish caught in UK waters is by foreign flagged boats, 60% of Scottish fleet scrapped in three decomssioning schemes,(banks forced owners when uncertainty hit early millenium) and cheap foreign imports from Iceland a non EU nation flood the market with frozen at sea haddock and cod. COsts have gone up a lot yet supermarkets wont pay a fair rate and thefishermen are disenfranchised on the east coast.
      Now on the west coast most catches are shellfish, Prawn, Brown Crab, velvet crab and Lobster, all bound for Spanish and French Markets, The West Coast fishermen know they are in trouble in a Brexit Britain but the major clout for the industry is East Coast, SFF, SFWPA and so on, so the West Coast doesnt have the voice that the east coast does, I know many who are thinking about selling up at a loss rather than face the stuggles they will, Crab and prawn which stored in viveier tanks will die off and the fisherman will lose a lot, they dont earn the big bucks of the east coast, many are surviving just, but that could be about to change, in a way teh west coast inshore fleet are similar to the hill farmers and money they make is from a tighter margin. so please dont blame all the fishers, they were not all pro Brexit despite what the media and industry leaders state

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      Or, to put it another way, a Brexited UK will be a huge market in the world, like the ex-soviet countries, who will be sending trade delegations and already are – to buyers throughout the UK.

      For imports to the UK, displacing the more expensive “home” market.

      But hey, at least it will offset the prices people pay in the supermarket, or at the London restaurant table.

    79. Valerie says:

      @wullie B

      Thanks for posting the Fishing for Leave long missive of something that reads as incredibly naive.

      It’s, Tories, we believed you, and now you are shafting us, even though we got you Scottish votes.

      It’s literally quite unbelievable. As Dr Jim says above, let’s not assume they are all stupid.

      Numerous times the fishermen were reminded of the original betrayal by Tories in the 70s, when Scottish waters were traded for freedoms in London banking. It was described in the papers as ‘expedient’.

      That was raised by numerous SNP politicians, not just activists, but still they know better. They were told SNP would seek to renegotiate the CFP, but still they turn to the Tories.

      They knew as well as anyone, that Tories did not deliver one aspect of The Vow. They must be, even vaguely, watching the direction of travel of this Tory government, regarding Scotland.

      They are politically engaged, as we see, with the Tories, fully believing they will deliver their demands. They are reaping what they’ve sown.

      My sympathy to you, and others like you.

    80. heedtracker says:

      Wullie B, so did Gove lie to Scots fishing industry? seems clear he did/nt.

      FT says,

      “But the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Mr Gove’s department, insisted there was no contradiction between Mr Gove’s talking up of the benefits of leaving the common fisheries policy and his remarks in Denmark.

      “As we have always said, other countries will be able to access our waters,” the department said. “But, for the first time in 50 years, it will be on our terms and under our control.”

      Tories will look after the farmers though. Those greedy fat bastards ruining our countryside, know exactly where their tory bread’s buttered.

      How different Scotland could be, if only a few proud Scot buts had’nt bottled it, 2014.

    81. Ian Foulds says:

      Can we ALL remember that in our lifetime, we have ALL (almost) been suckered from when we were ‘knee high to a grasshopper’ by the ‘Great Britain’ government, the banners, the glorification of war, the system or whatever you want to call it.

      We have at various stages of our lives managed to remove the ‘wool from our eyes’, except those who want to believe they will be looked after (not very well compared to other Countries – I know, U.K./GB is not a Country) or have some financial interest in the current system.

      I believe, as others have suggested, that it is better to show some support to those who have been let down by another State/Media lie, to help them to see there are better opportunities for our Country through and beyond Independence.

    82. Worry not. Magnus Gardham will arrange a photoshoot for Ruth Davidson with snaps of her driving a tractor anf d hauling in the nets on a fishing smack, grinning broadly to the camera.
      That’ll make it all go away.
      In Ruth, like White and like Green before her, we trust.
      If we don’t hold Indyref 2 before April 2019, I shall be applying for political asylum somewhere hot in Europe.
      The Madness of Fox, Davis, Gove, Johnson, Rudd, and May is beyond sanity.
      There will be a GE in the autumn; Big Money will insist on it.

    83. Ken500 says:

      The Buchans etc have £16Millions of assets. When the euro went down the fishing processors in the north east were being bailed out with public money. Home ports have exclusive landing rights under EU rules. The fish market premises are being extended with EU funding, Richard Lockhead negotiated the deal for higher quotas using larger nets. Throughout the 80’s NE fisherman were landing £Million catches. There were competition between them. Cod quotas have been now been extended. Conservation has paid off. People were working in the Oil sector from choice. On the rigs, supply boats etc. Youngsters want better conditions and time off.

      Scottish Gov 2000 Minority SNP Gov 2007.

    84. Grouse Beater says:

      The Infamous Ledger welcomes Paul Dacre, editor-in-chief of the Daily Mail, to its annals of infamy.

      http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

    85. Ken500 says:

      Brexit. Fishing would gain £200Million? Scotland will lose £8Billion. With the NE being hit worse.

    86. Ken500 says:

      Brexit. The Daily Mail HQ will move to IR. The non Dom tax evading owner will remain.

    87. Ken500 says:

      In the NE voters did not turn out. Complacency. Absent voters. Some people never learn.

    88. heedtracker says:

      Anus of tory infamy more like,

      BBC r4 Any Questions today , as per, absolutely NO Scots voice, let alone 3rd party you know who. But BBC gimps do like the hard core right from the USA, like

      https://twitter.com/kateandrs

      Kate’s a ligger Neil favorite and one of the most ferocious American Conservatives this side of the pond. She gets on every and any beeb gimp politics show going, any.

      She’s just another US neo con fraud, given endless beeb time to boost up the GOP, shit all over the NHS, get it privatised, and ofcourse opened up for US medi corps. She should be a nobody, but thanks to our hideous shyster BBC, she’s everywhere. Today she spouted off how socialism has failed today, has never worked, will never work and the NHS is such a load of shite etc.

      Its nice to think that Murdoch’s got her in the bbc so much, via his ligger Neil. Socialism for the City and Wall Street, capitalism for the broke, disabled, unemployable.

      Its like the antithesis of everything these lying fraud tories of the beeb blast at us, or if the owner of WoS never off our screens and radio waves.

      Listen now
      Stella Creasy MP, Nigel Evans MP, Owen Jones, Kate Andrews
      Any Questions?

      Scotland just no longer exists between their ears but ofcourse its the exact UKOK opposite.

    89. Glamaig says:

      BBC HYS is so confusing today, Brexiteers raging at Tories, I dont know who to upvote or who to downvote 😀

    90. Gfaetheblock says:

      Grouse beater

      There is not a sauna next to Davidson’s office, passed it on the way into town the night. Used to be one on that run of shops, but no longer there. Creation of police Scotland impacted ?&B police’s tolerance strategy

    91. Glamaig says:

      Just watching Deutsche Welle. Piece on Yemen cholera disaster. Presenter says ‘The country is lying in ruins. One of the richest countries in the world is bombing one of the poorest’.

      I cant imagine that phrase being on the BBC.

    92. mike d says:

      Handandshrimp 10.04 am. Agree there,instead of nice polish care workers, let’s see how they’ll like some of the homegrown unemployable scroats whom the tories will have forced into (work or lose your benefits) helping dress these elderly tory brexiteers. What a shame.

    93. mike d says:

      Dr.jim 3.17pm. Very good point,all it takes for evil to succeed,is for good men to do nothing.

    94. colin alexander says:

      Ken500 said:

      “In the NE voters did not turn out. Complacency. Absent voters. Some people never learn.”

      Maybe the pro-indy voters didn’t want to vote to:

      “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster” which is the slogan that summarised what the SNP manifesto offered.

    95. Bob p says:

      Wullie B. Great post and insight into the fishing industry.

    96. Alex Clark says:

      Just been doing some general surfing reading mainly old news and not much of interest but then I came across a BBC article from 1st June this year that was surprisingly positive.

      Water quality at 26 Scottish beaches is rated ‘excellent’

      Bathing water at 26 beaches across Scotland has been rated “excellent” in an official survey of water quality. The highly rated beaches include Achmelvich in the Highlands and Southerness in Dumfries and Galloway.

      A total of 73 locations in Scotland met strict European water quality standards, according to the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (Sepa).

      Popular beaches at Ayr, Nairn and Sandyhills in the south-west of Scotland were among 11 rated “poor”.

      However overall water quality has improved since last year, when 17 beaches were rated “poor” and 17 “excellent”.

      The exact same figures reported by STV news read like this.

      Eleven Scottish beaches rated ‘poor’ for water quality

      Portobello beach in Edinburgh is among 11 places rated “poor” in the latest survey of bathing waters in Scotland.

      The number of areas that fall below EU standards has dropped compared to last year, however.

      The Scottish Environment Protection Agency (Sepa) rated 26 beaches “excellent” – up from 17 the previous season – and another 36 “good”.

      It rated 11 “sufficient” and another 11 “poor”, down from 17 last year.

      A spin can be put on any story and it most often will be, ignore the headlines. Without context the headline is meaningless.

    97. mike d says:

      I have nothing but contempt for these fishermen/farmer tory I’m alright f**k you jacks . And spare me the ‘we need these people on board s***e. They knew exactly what and who they were voting for.Tory scum.

    98. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Is’t Mo Farrah one of those pesky immigrants?”

      No, he is an Englishman according to the BBC, Scotland’s enemy number one:

      “Despite missing out on the British record, Farah recorded the fourth fastest time by a Briton and set the fastest time by an Englishman.”

      Truth Always.

    99. handclapping says:

      Wot? Another fisherman! Skegness obviously too much for Chris. Try Mablethorpe next time.

      If those pups are from life I want one.

    100. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Poor auld Rock’s gonny hufty ditch his mischievous ‘Truth Always’ sign-off.

      Why?

      See Rev’s warning to Smallaxe on Off-Topic, this afternoon.

    101. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian – The 9 Down on the Cryptic Crossword does appear to be ‘Grouse Beater’, but the National can’t be referring to me. I don’t think they know I exist! (Unless you compiled the crossword!)

    102. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      Well, er, ehm, aye!

      😉

    103. Grouse Beater says:

      Gfaetheblock: “Used to be one on that run of shops.

      Well who the hell gave me that intimate Swedish massage?!!!

    104. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @GB –

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Blimey!

    105. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: It was you! – many thanks for the kind thought.

      I’m not in Wings list of recommended sites but I’m immortalised in a crossword. An honour indeed from The Brotherhood. I shall cut it out, frame it, and keep it till its value accrues for my grandchildren’s education.

    106. Alex Clark says:

      @Grouse Beater

      I had you immortalised years ago or was that mortified? I can’t remember LOL

    107. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      You are very welcome mister.

      If you want to get the thing preserved properly, I highly recommend Miss Donna Babington who has some special sooper-dooper machinery which makes the accurate engraving of such material possible. She has done some splendid work for and on behalf of WOS, and I’m sure Rev Stu himself would heartily recommend her services. http://www.saltirecustomcreations.com

      In any event, I’m just glad you didn’t object to being cryptically presented as a ‘professional alarmist’! (Intended as a compliment, and I hope you interpret it as such.)

      More power to you, yer blog, and the muse who inspired yer handle.

      😉

    108. Grouse Beater says:

      Alex: “Probably moribund!” Hahaha!

    109. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian:

      I like ‘professional alarmist”.

      A lot better than “arch whinger” as opined by a flatulent unionist yesterday to his pals.

      Takes some multi-thinking brain work to compose crossword puzzles. Create one for ‘Independence Day’. Maybe something more cryptic than, “dependence on an anniversary birthday”, or something like it.

      Hope you are getting a fee and the job has 20 years to go!

    110. Still Positive says:

      Ian Brotherhood: I enjoy your crosswords as Calgacus and find them the easiest. I also find Orraman fairly easy: should have known you were one and the same. Still stuck with 16 down today, an extra clue would be helpful.

      I got Grouse Beater!

    111. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @GB –

      🙂

      Glad you got it and liked it.

      I did the first cryptic XW in The National, but I’d swap that, and all the ones I’ve done since – in a nanosecond – for the chance to compile the XW for Independence Day.

      Tick-tock…

    112. Grouse Beater says:

      Still Positive: “I got Grouse Beater!

      😀

    113. Wullie B says:

      heedtracker says:
      5 August, 2017 at 5:00 pm

      Wullie B, so did Gove lie to Scots fishing industry? seems clear he did/nt.

      Nopehe didnt lie, he told them that the UK would take back waters it had as historic rights, those rights were 12 miles out, the Danes were the ones who had fished within sight of the Scottish coast inc the inner Moray Firth and that was why the London Convention of 1964 was was signed, it was the fishermen being told by the likes of Farage about taking back the 200 nautical mile/median line where the nation closes up to EU borders, but a lot of naivity, if you want an insight of how they think, join a facebook page called Fishing onward Brexit at this link and see they are still naive SNP hating tory voters, but bare in mind there are English fishers there as well https://www.facebook.com/groups/1575129209449099/

    114. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Still Positive –

      I dunno if I can give you another clue, but Sammy’s Da says he can!

    115. Alex Clark says:

      @Wullie B

      Because of your first post today I did a bit of reading online about Scottish Fishing. Mainly statistics from the scot gov website but also some local issues around where I live.

      I’m not far from Arbroath, it’s my nearest town and as everyone knows is famous for the Arbroath Smokie. What I didn’t know was that there is only one boat now registered in Arbroath and even that lands in Peterhead.

      So there is no white fish landed in Arbroath other than from the tourist boats in the summer with what they’ve caught with their rods.

      The next nearest harbour that does land fish is over on the East Neuk and still just over 100 boats fishing out of that area, not for white fish though more than 95% are small boats using creels for shellfish like linguistine, lobsters and crabs.

      Still it is an industry worth around £4 million/year and around 1500 to 2000 tonnes are landed every year in that corner of Fife. Here’s what I didn’t know, almost none at all is sold to locals at Pittenweem Fish Market.

      A story in the Courier gave this report last year.

      But the trial was also a direct response to the “craziness” whereby just about every piece of shellfish currently landed at Pittenweem is packed into lorries and goes to Peterhead or Mintlaw, Aberdeenshire, for processing and packing.

      From there it is exported mainly to Spain, France and Italy – hardly ever being sold in Fife hotels or restaurants.

      https://archive.is/1F6YG

      My question is what will the local fisherman do if tariffs are brought in for live shellfish sales into the EU, where will there produce go? What if there is no customs union and the shellfish do not arrive at their destination still live?

      Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Let’s hope Gove has a plan.

    116. Wullie B says:

      Alex Clark says:
      6 August, 2017 at 12:28 am

      @Wullie B

      My question is what will the local fisherman do if tariffs are brought in for live shellfish sales into the EU, where will there produce go? What if there is no customs union and the shellfish do not arrive at their destination still live?

      Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Let’s hope Gove has a plan.

      Am with you on that thought Alex, but the reason there are designated ports for white fish stems back to the early millenium, when cod was supposedly a lost fish, (they had moved north into colder waters, between Norway and Spitzbergen bumper amounts were being caught by factory ships, only one Scottish boat chased them and that was Terry Taylors Norma Craig which was fishing out of Iceland, but it was easier to police by fishery officers on the quayside in a handful of ports rather than every harbour in Scotland/UK/EU, so now all you have is Eyemouth, Peterhead, Fraseburgh MAcduff then its Scrabster, Stornaway,Lochinver, Clash(Fopreign boats use these two most) Uig Mallaig and Oban.
      I remember we were landing fish into Peterhead, 28 fishery officers were counted on Peterhead pier alone one night, , but the best I seen was in Kinlochbervie, four Scottish vessels landing, each had three officers, Spanish boats landing into back of lorries and there were 25+ lorries waiting for their boats coming in and not one was checked, each of our 800 plus boxes of Monk and Megrim were checked to make surte no cod or other fish which we didnt have quota for(all was correct as we had the biggest monk quota in UK)

      But those designated ports killed the local industires reliant on inshore fishing. Did you know in 2001 there were upwards of 100 boats landing into Peterhead with white fish, from places like Lossiemouth, |Fraserburgh Peterhead and other Scottish ports, it was the premier white fish prt, Fraserburgh was the prominent prawn (langustine) port, now you are lucky if twenty five Scottish based boats use Peterhead market, the old mile long one is gone and I can remember that one full of fish.

      The EU might have saved cod, buyt fishermen blame it for killing the industry, an earlier poster spoke about young lads wanting to go to the oil, they were preetty much forced to change industries when he boats were cut up on the say so of Brussels, now the young want to go back fishing but they cant even mend nets while demanding full share wages, I started on 1/4 of what a full share fisherman earnt, I learnt the ropes, mending, splicing, watch keeping, taking tows and what ever else before gettting full share it was an apprenticeship as such, but I can tell you this, I never earnt the money some folk bandy about the fishing, yes the Peterhead Buchans might have £16million in assets,( believe me, it is a lot more, three or four pelagic boats at least £16 million each, a nother handful of seine netters at £4-5 million each, Lunar Fishing factory, I couldnt even give you a figure and lorries galore, but they employ quite a few hundred on the shore side, filleters packers, warehousemen, so when you take that into consideration, then why not apply for assistance, they have been paying a lot of taxes over the years, even the famous black fish scandal the taxes they paid were for full catches not the tonnage they supposedly caught , that was why they were only given slaps on the wrists

    117. stewartb says:

      Alex Clark @12.28am

      What the hell are you and I posting stuff this time of night? Just in from a night out in a buzzing Edinburgh and read your post. (WoS does become addictive!)

      You are just worrying too much, according to Mr Bertie Armstrong, CEO of the Scottish Fisheries Federation, the fishing industry can relax and rely on the currency markets reducing the value of Sterling!

      This from the transcript of his oral evidence to the Exiting the European Union Committee, 19 December 2016, Aberdeen (http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/exiting-the-european-union-committee/the-uks-negotiating-objectives-for-its-withdrawal-from-the-eu/oral/44763.html ):

      “On the matter of tariffs for fish, the WTO average is 5% to 10%. Since the day after the referendum, currency has fluctuated just shy of 20% , and always does anyway in reaction to circumstance. The point we would make is let us not be frightened to death by tariffs at all. They may be consumed in the noise of currency fluctuations but some small tariffs would not necessarily be a disaster, particularly as the other side of that coin is that you may access new markets, for instance India, that are currently shut for you because of the present circumstance.”

      So, don’t worry about the effect of the value of the pound on the price of our imports – presently on fish we largely export what we don’t eat and import what we do eat – Mr Armstrong is telling us that a weaker Pound Sterling will make everything OK!

      Pleasant dreams!

    118. Petra says:

      @ Wullie B says at 12:55 am … ”Fisheries.”

      Wullie MANY thanks for posting on here. It’s late now and I don’t have a clue about fishermen / fisheries but I’m sure I’ll (and others) have some questions for you so please hang around.

    119. Cactus says:

      SO that’s the fisherpeople and farmers got their pups as expected.

      Who is next to be got at and sold a pup. There’s an endless supply of pups for deployment, they manufacture them on a production line.

      I think LHS pup has done a wee jobby on his hand.

      It’s all in the eyes.

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Michelle Thomson in the Sunday Herald, and from her twitter, apparently on BBC (Nick Eardly) at 9.30.

      http://archive.is/NzXUP

      She’s not going to go quietly.

    121. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – just read your linked Sunday Herald article. Reads as if the media are now going to turn the Michelle Thomson case into a “let’s you and them fight” battle against the SNP. In particular, the relationship between Nicola as leader and Peter as CEO.

      Despicable always.

    122. Capella says:

      Radio Scotland about to interview Michelle Thomson this morning.

    123. sassenach says:

      re. SH article

      This will not do any favours for the FM or the Party, errors seem to have been made and the bringing up of different treatments of male/female MPs by the SNP is a concern.

      It was a bit strange that I never saw (or heard) any congratulations from Nicola when Mrs Thomson was “completely cleared” – just found that a bit odd.

    124. Capella says:

      @ sassenach – I think you’ll find that whatever the SNP or FM do will be BAD in the eyes of the media.

    125. Dorothy Devine says:

      There is a ‘lovely ‘ wee article in the Daily record from March 2016 about Ms Thomson – I look forward to her suing them now she is free so to do.

      Having read the Sunday herald article I am more than a little disappointed in the direction of travel.

    126. heedtracker says:

      join a facebook page called Fishing onward Brexit at this link and see they are still naive SNP hating tory voters, but bare in mind there are English fishers there as well https://www.facebook.com/groups/1575129209449099/

      I doubt they’d let me join. The admin are interesting though, “from PeterHead” and “I’m voting Conservative” photos everywhere. Dear god.

      Problem is really, no one really knows what’s going on, except at the top. You’re clearly trying to work it all out and look at your conclusions.

      Its the UKOK way. Just like how your average UK offshore oil worker hasn’t the faintest idea why his neighbouring rig worker in the Norwegian sector, earns 4 times more, gets 4 times more time off, far higher safety standards, infinitely higher working conditions and so on.

      Keep them in the dark, keep all the bootie. Welcome the UK. I have no idea what’s happening, so I’m voting Conservative.

    127. Giving Goose says:

      Re the Michelle Thomson story, I believe Michelle is correct about the FM and her husband both being at the top of decision making in the SNP.

      In any organisation that could be less than healthy.

      What the SNP should do with the Michelle Thomson case is use it as a positive opportunity to shake things up at the top.

      I would personally like to see a change in emphasis and possibly leadership. Change can be a good thing.

      I feel that the SNP has lost it’s radical appeal and has been seen to mimic to closely the Westminster way of doing things e.g. the way it almost acts scared of the MSM.

      What it should do is come out fighting, with an MSM- incorrect approach (stick 2 fingers up at them and call them out for what they are).

      The SNP are just to timid. There was a time when Independence had a sharp edge on the political debate but it now appears just cosy mainstream and therefore less appealing, especially compared to Brexit – what I mean is that it isn’t colourful enough to capture people’s attention.

      So the SNP should have a rethink, apply a fresh paint job and wheel out a new battle bus.

      Stuff this cosy establishment “don’t upset the MSM and play by their rules”approach.

      Grow a pair!

    128. Smallaxe says:

      Nana; Good Morning, it’s a soggy Sunday here this morning. Thank You for Your lovely links. Kettle’s on. 🙂

    129. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe, a mixed bag of links for a slow Sunday.
      Nice day here so far.

      Don’t know where this is from but I like it

      https://twitter.com/BjCruickshank/status/893460569885421568

      https://www.snp.org/freedom_of_movement_why_it_matters_and_where_political_parties_stand

    130. heedtracker says:

      Grow a pair!

      Indeed you should. Why are waiting for some one else to do this for you though, Mr Goose?

    131. Glamaig says:

      https://twitter.com/BjCruickshank/status/893460569885421568

      How do the BBC know their viewing figures? is it by polling or by some technical wizardry? Anybody know?

    132. sassenach says:

      BBC Scotland doing their usual – David Clegg and Katy Grant doing the papers!! Good grief.

    133. heedtracker says:

      Graun’s pet Scotch gimp takes another pish all over Scottish democracy today, or as usual, no doubt for everyone tory Graun at the not Scottish Edinburgh Festival.

      “2
      Scotland is the fairest, most equal and most equally fair country in the world. This, of course, is nonsense, yet it has been wheeled out by all the main political parties, especially the SNP, as often as Gordon Brown’s dogeared old speech about federalism. ”

      Kevin Mackenna will say anything to smear his country, for money but probably love too.

      Did you know,

      https://www.snp.org/welcoming_the_world_the_70th_anniversary_of_the_edinburgh_festivals

      Supporting the festivals isn’t just good for our national culture, it’s good for our economy too. The festivals are recognised as a world-leading brand, with audiences of a staggering 4.5 million, around the same as the FIFA World Cup and second only to the Olympics. The festivals generate an incredible economic impact of £280 million in Edinburgh and £313 million in Scotland in total.”

      Imagine tory media gimps actually reporting reality:D

    134. Jim says:

      It’s been a torrid few weeks for the Yes movement. The deeply personal attacks on Stuart Campbell do not make the campaign for independence look like something a new activist would get involved with or that a floating voter would even give the time of day to. It would be a terrible mistake to pretend this is all new though. It is only the latest, angriest round of behaviour from a Unionist fringe who should have been called out, and if necessary cast out, a long time ago for their actions.

    135. Glamaig says:

      I just found the answer to my own question. Note to self – try google first.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13661166

    136. Valerie says:

      The latest leak about future torture, from Tory Scum.

      They will propose making Benefits a repeatable loan.

      How many more people have to commit suicide, before this country wakes up?

      It was BBC link on Twitter just now. Too depressed to archive 🙁

    137. Jim says:

      Take the example of what has been hurled at Suart Campbell a prominent Yes blogger/activist, who founded the excellent, ‘Wings Over Scotland’.

      Since he proceeded with legal action against Kezia Dugdale, he has been the subject of hysterical, vitriolic reactions.

      You would have thought he had no right to take her to court for defamation and that he should tread on egg shells just because she is a homosexual woman.

      Should she therefore be allowed to libel or slander anyone she wishes using false claims of homophobia as a political weapon setting back the real fight against homophobia as explained in an excellent article by Paul Kavanagh who has suffered very real mental and physical abuse.

      She should be ashamed of herself.

    138. Glamaig says:

      heedtracker says:
      6 August, 2017 at 9:32 am
      Imagine tory media gimps actually reporting reality:D

      My only reason to listen to them these days is not to learn about the world, but to learn about propaganda techniques 🙂

    139. Nana says:

      @Valerie

      Depressing indeed. Article from the 11th of June

      http://archive.is/cWgvp

    140. Jim says:

      The other really noticeable pattern has been that those leading the hordes against Stuart Campbell and others were nowhere to be seen in 2014.

      While they were sitting in their Union Jack festooned cellars, frothing bile emanating from their keyboards, those they were and still are castigating for being pro-independence’ were out every day knocking on doors, holding public meetings, organising tens of new volunteers and possibly winning no votes.

    141. uno mas says:

      @ Giving Goose 9.13am

      Hear hear!

    142. heedtracker says:

      My only reason to listen to them these days is not to learn about the world, but to learn about propaganda techniques

      I tune in to BBC r4 for all that, English nationalist tory propaganda. Its quite a listen. Oddest er, English thing, is how they slip and slide in and out of English/British all the time.

      If youre not from round here, it must be a bit disorientating, this English/British thing from bbc r4. This, with their black out of anything Scots and SNP and their total love and worship of neo con USA, its all very vote tory radio mad.

      BBC r4 tory gimps do like the sound of some Scots though, but always in thrilled awe at just how wonderful it really is, to be posh tory English/British. Hope the beeb Scots gimps that do this creepy radio fluffing, are well paid for it all.

    143. Valerie says:

      @Nana

      Thanks somehow I missed this. That Kwarteng guy is a nasty piece. Watched him in HoC, and he is arch Right Winger.

      Need to get dogs out while break in this rain! Bit of fresh air will help, cos coffee ain’t!

    144. pacman says:

      At this stage of the game, it is hard to know what the effects of Brexit will be when we don’t even know that type there will be.

      However, it is obvious in the short and medium term there will be a drop in living standards. The same thing would have happened with Scottish independence. The question is how much of a drop of living standards in both situations.

      I’m biased of course but in the case of Scottish independence, given how little change there would be, there wouldn’t be that much of a drop of living standards but in the case of Brexit, depending on the degree of change i.e. hard brexit, the drop of living standards could well be a lot bigger.

      Depending on this, the pressure on the government to do deals to get cheap foodstuffs to the UK will be too great. As the saying goes a society is 3 meals away from a revolution. It could well mean that a post Brexit UK will be flooded chlorinated chicken from the US and cheap beef from the South Americas. In that case, British farmers will be decimated.

      This of course is just an opinion and influenced of course of being against Brexit but it is a possibility.

    145. colin alexander says:

      @heedtracker

      Are you still bullying people with personal attacks cos they dare mention a valid criticism of the SNP?

    146. gordoz says:

      Well there you go. No matter my sympathy for Michelle Thomson former MP allegations, is she doing the right thing by running to the BBC of North Britain to bleat ? Yes she has a gripe with the SNP but is was the frigging BBC that did the hounding was it not ??

      Sad & Shoddy dealings all round & no doubt has the right for a face to face with FM, but run to the BBC to tell tales ???
      Says it all for me. Lost all credibility right there lady.

      Enough said lets move on. The lady is going to be nothing but trouble from now on … Alex Bell anyone.

      Odds on her getting a spot along with Katie Grant now … anyone ??

      Really helping the cause you claim to hold dear with that tactic Michelle. Ta from all at YES

    147. heedtracker says:

      colin alexander says:
      6 August, 2017 at 10:31 am
      @heedtracker

      Are you still bullying people with personal attacks cos they dare mention a valid criticism of the SNP?

      Piss off Colin:D

    148. heedtracker says:

      uno mas says:
      6 August, 2017 at 10:13 am
      @ Giving Goose 9.13am

      Hear hear!

      Same message to you. Stop waiting for other people to do what you want.

      Get stuck in yourselves.

    149. gus1940 says:

      Perusal of today’s Scottish broadcast and print media indicates that today is Michelle Thomson day.

      However, surprise surprise there is no suggestion whatsoever of any apologies for the disgraceful campaign of sensationalist lies and distortion waged against her and the SNP over the last 2 years.

      Instead the coverage is concentrating on the alleged mistreatment she received from Nicola and husband while she was being supported by her WM colleagues.

      This is, of course, a continuation of the new campaign aimed at destruction of Nicola’s repuetation with the added suggestion of conflict between The SNP’s MPs and SNP HQ (in particular Nicola and husband).

      Having now dropped the ‘NO to Indyfref2’ campaign after it did its work in the GE and Council elections we are now being subjected to a well coordinated Divide and Rule Campaign directed at the Independence Movement.

      I would like to see Michelle welcomed back into the party with open arms and for Nicola to appoint her as a new SPAD and to hell with the Bad Guys if they moan about the expense involved.

      I look, forward to her suing every single one of the politicians, papers and journalists who waged their disgusting war of lies against her in particular that little Tailor’s Dummy creature Cole-Hamilton and will gladly contribute to any crowdfunding appeal.

      Meanwhile assorted Tory and Labour former convicts continue to draw their £300 per day in The Lords.

    150. Pacman says:

      donnywho @ 5 August, 2017 at 10:56 am

      Agreed that calling them out and dipping all farmers in tar”n”feathers is not the way to convert them. Satisfying as it might be.

      I ask you how you feel when you realize you have been taken for granted, manipulated and lied to?

      Because if we call them fools and selfish then they will just bury their heads in their prejudices and harden their hearts.

      Call an Orange man marching down the street a Bigot he will forcefully deny it and give you a wee slap so you understand. He does not want his world view, no matter how strange, challenged.

      Sympathize with him over being abandoned by his beloved Britain and you might get him to listen.

      And this is where we should go with the Fishermen, sympathy and a shared sense of outrage, they don’t need to have their noses rubbed in it.

      A common cause a belief that Westminster cannot be trusted, these are the seeds that need to be planted, watered and nurtured.

      You are an idiot and should be punished is not going to achieve anything, other than a moments vicarious pleasure.

      Them coming to that moments realization that they have been conned that will be Beautiful… and as we know a converts zeal is unstoppable, especially if the said convert, feels betrayed by his former friends!

      I totally agree with this.

      Ok, during indyref, we got a bit carried away in what an iScotland could achieve but for the whole we had truth on our side whereas the opposite traded in lies, deceit and playing on peoples fears.

      Rather than playing the game that those against independence want us to play which is divide and conquer, we should get those who who oppose independence to talk about why are against it, their fears and concerns.

      An example of this is the Orange Order types. They are concerned about their British identity and afraid of just becoming plastic Brits much like Scots who are third or fourth generation Irish immigrants. Sure, an independent Scotland will go it’s on way on a lot of things compared to rUK but given that we share the same island, the ease of travel and given the size of rUK, it will have a such cultural impact on iScotland that both won’t become two separate cultural entities.

      In that case, their fears are unfounded and played played by the British establishment as much as indy supporters.

    151. Ghillie says:

      How can there be any certainty that Michelle Thomson is being quoted acurately or in context?

    152. Nana says:

      Michelle Thomson interview on Sunday GMS. She criticises the BBC at 23 mins. Just under 3 mins of 28 min interview. http://indyref2.scot/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/michelle-thomson-gms-060817.mp3

      https://twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/894122689018966016

      Ponsononby on the ball, always

    153. Nana says:

      Few people have more right to be bitter and angry than Michelle Thomson.

      https://scottovoce.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/them-and-us/

    154. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Nana and Smallaxe = )

      As for the farmers and the fisherfolk being sold a pup. ( Clever cartoon again, Chris! )

      I feel sorry for every one who has ever found themselves in that position.

      After all, conmen are brilliant at telling lies very very convincingly. Or they wouldn’t be conmen for long, would they?

      Hopefuly the duped farmers and fisherfolk will now turn to Independence and feel properly welcomed when they do =)

    155. jfngw says:

      The last few weeks has revealed a couple of clear directions of travel from the media.

      The focus is to try an bring down Nicola Sturgeon and remove any possibility of a yes referendum.

      The Sunday Herald although claiming to be a yes leaning paper is now anything but, constant weekly stream of negativity. Possibly the owners thought it was OK to support yes when it was unlikely to win, but now?

    156. Petra says:

      Who would want Nicola Sturgeon’s job? Damned if you do and damned if you don’t and not in a position to publicly address the situation. There was no way that Nicola Sturgeon could turn a blind eye to the allegations. She had to take the stance that she took at the time, imo. It wasn’t her that dragged the so-called non event out for two years either. If as we’ve been told Michelle Thomson was questioned as a witness to another individuals case, only, why didn’t her lawyer demand that her name was cleared within weeks of the media Thomson / SNP hate fest?

      And now we’ve got Michelle Thomson coming out with all guns blazing in the wrong direction. No mention of Kezia Dugdale, the BBC, STV or the press etc. More than anything giving the real culprits, the Establishment propaganda machine, even more ammunition against Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP / the Independence movement. Stating that the witch hunt was due to her gender and nothing to do with her politics is also farcical. You couldn’t make it up and I’m extremely disappointed, to say the least, with Michelle Thomson.

    157. Nana says:

      Good morning Ghillie, last link for today. I’m off to see a man about cutting the grass [he’ll no be happy,lol]

      Prof John Robertson writes
      According to Goldman Sachs, in Oil and Gas People:
      http://archive.is/N5NQd

    158. heedtracker says:

      Great links Nana.

      “With due respect to Michelle Thomson, and fully acknowledging the torment she has suffered, the underlying issue here is, not the differential treatment of women, but the anti-SNP prejudice that is rife within the British establishment.”

      It is horrific. And its only matched by their vote tory propaganda. Its the same in America, who just voted in Orange Hitler. Imagine the tory reaction to Pres Obama who might have said this “When you’re a star they let you do it,” Trump says in the recording, which was obtained by the Washington Post and released on Friday. “You can do anything.”

      Trump, in a 2005 conversation with a television host that was caught on a live microphone, describes a failed seduction, saying: “I did try and fuck her, she was married,” and says that when he meets beautiful women he feels able to “grab them by the pussy”.

      “You can do anything,” he tells Billy Bush, the TV host who is a cousin of George W and Jeb Bush.

      UK and US media is fascist. Simple as that. Keep in mind how many so called Christians actually vote in Orange Hitler. in the US, Here in the UK, they vote for a tory party that’s caused the premature deaths of countless thousands of disabled people.

      Why? because the richest in the UK, in the City, are either terrible at the their City jobs, or just out and out crooks.

      Either or, dark days indeed, for us non fascists.

    159. heedtracker says:

      Petra says:
      6 August, 2017 at 11:19 am
      Who would want Nicola Sturgeon’s job?

      Me! and probably every WoS reader included.

    160. Capella says:

      @ Petra – Michelle Thomson does call out the BBC, Kezia Dugdale and the press. See the interview linked to by Nana above. She also criticises (quietly) the SNP leadership. That might be understandable under the circs. Nothing that the leadership can’t sort soon.

      http://indyref2.scot/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/michelle-thomson-gms-060817.mp3

      Note that she suggests Kenny McKaskill takes the same view!

      The BBC are obviously carefully covering their tracks and laying a false track to blame the SNP for MTs treatment. Let’s not fall into that trap.

    161. Proud Cybernat says:

      Michelle Thomson interview with Nick Eardley she says, “It wasn’t an investigation into me, it was an investigation into the solicitor and, you know, maybe an apology from the BBC would be acceptable…”

      Eardley tried to justify uing the word “case” as a catch-all term but Thomson rightly highlighted the BBC’s use of the term “case into former SNP MP Michelle Thomson” when there never was such a thing.

      I think an apology is the least Michelle Thomson should accept from the BBC.

    162. Clapper57 says:

      Re Michelle Thomson….let’s not forget that Alex Cole Hamilton used , in his campaign literature, the fact that she was being ‘investigated’ as a means to highlight a negative slant on voting SNP.

      If , to him, this was a valid reason NOT to vote for a party then ……he himself is now in a similar position…..I say similar, however she has now been exonerated….he on the other hand is still at the stage of after being reported to fiscal STILL being under investigation…though in Alex’s mind that is tantamount to proof of guilt is it not…..well, to him, it WAS in Michelle’s case was it not……life does indeed come at you fast.

      One assumes if found guilty re campaign overspend then…. as he is obviously so very ‘principled’…..he will resign…..or will it be the usual double standards we have come to expect from the party whose collective brass necks are infinitely on show.

      Yes I know…..it will indeed be (shady) business as usual….the mantra of unionists political parties towards SNP is as always ‘Do as I say not as I do’.

    163. Smallaxe says:

      Ghillie; Good morning, have a lovely Sunday, my Friend, I’m trying to spot myself in this crowd. The good old days?

      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/05/inquiry-just-revealed-far-british-state-go-secret-war-citizens-videos/

      Things were so different then,”THEY” just gave us a good kicking and a room (cell) for the night. 🙂

    164. Black Joan says:

      Some mistake on BBC Radio early this morning? Enthusiastic speaker (English accent) praising Scotland and explaining why he moved here from Devon and how it feels like home. This was actually broadcast to the masses (admittedly before most of them were awake).

      Thought I was dreaming. BBC doesn’t allow this sort of thing and I can’t find the relevant clip but I noted the name. Celebrated author Christopher Priest, who wrote about reasons for leaving England, in January, here:
      https://christopher-priest.co.uk/hello-to-all-that

    165. colin alexander says:

      ” e.g. the way it (the SNP)almost acts scared of the MSM.”

      Scared of the SNP? I get the point, but disagree they are scared. The SNP are part of the Unionist MSM.

      Viz. Nicola Sturgeon writes for The Evening Times; Joan McAlpine writes for the Daily Record for £20,000 a year.

      The SNP have become a mainstream Unionist political party in my opinion.

      They offer themselves as a mainstream political alternative to Labour, Tories and LibDems with a mixture of some of the policies of each party or something similar.

      You can vote for the SNP without supporting indy is the message the SNP emphasise.

      That’s because the main policies and raison d’etre of the SNP is administration of WM devolution. The party that aspires to be the best administrators and servants of Westminster.

      It’s understandable: £60k plus and c. £100k for the boss can take the fire out of a lot of people’s bellies when they see the salaries rolling in for abandoning independence as the number one aim.

      They tag on an optional extra indyref now and again to keep the independist wing of the party happy.

      Independence is the only radical policy and the SNP have spent the last three years denying they stand for that policy.

      No, it’s not an anti-SNP rant.

      It’s a reality check that me and others who support independence have serious doubts about the goals and strategies of the SNP.

      The voting figures speak for themselves. Aye the SNP won the elections. I’m one of the people who voted for them too in all three elections, but my patience is wearing thin for a party that appears to be all talk and no action.

      A party that campaigns to: Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster and wouldn’t mention the word “independence” in campaign literature.

      Okay, I’ll change tack, instead of criticising the SNP.

      I will ask: Should a separate YES to Independence party be the one that leads the fight for independence and let the SNP support it when they decide they favour indy ,and when they don’t they can get on with administering devolution for WM Govts?

    166. Smallaxe says:

      Capella says:

      “The BBC are obviously carefully covering their tracks and laying a false track to blame the SNP for MTs treatment. Let’s not fall into that trap.”

      Good morning (just) my Friend. He who diggeth the pit shall fall in it

    167. Ghillie says:

      Hmmm. Listened to Michelle Thomson’s radio interview with the BBC’s Nick Eardly. (Thank you for the link Nana @ 11.02 am )

      The Nick Eardly who, after MT was completely cleared of any wrong doing, continued to suggest that there was still a question mark over her implyed involvement in the case.

      Out of a 28 minute interview, MT spoke for only 3 mins on her treatment by the media.

      Maybe her priorities were different from what I would have expected but I think that for such a smart person, she missed an opportunity.

      And sadly. I think she may rue speaking to the one of the very presenters who stuck the knife in only a few nights ago.

    168. Breeks says:

      If folk are doubting the farming community in Scotland, I would encourage them to visit or revisit the Phantom Power Film Journey to Yes No14 Farming.

      Hillary and Carey put their case very well, and come across as a lot more typical as farmers who manage livestock than the landed gentry who farm pheasants.

      And flying off at a tangent, regarding the farming of pheasants, I was thoroughly disgusted to recently learn that Visit Scotland promotes the grotesque spectacle of blood sports and the have-a-go slaughter of Scottish wildlife for fun. This is the same “sport” which directly and indirectly drove our raptor population, from eagles to kestrels to the brink of extinction, sees grotesquely cruel pole traps planted illegally but with impunity in the Court, and virtually all predators from foxes to weasels poisoned, shot, gassed and persecuted as vermin, all to purge the land of threats to sporting gamebirds, and similar persecution of otters and ospreys for the threat they posed to fishing.

      Isn’t it time this obscenity was removed from our culture? Certainly not the type of thing to be promoted by the tourist industry’s Visit Scotland. I don’t care if it brings money into Scotland, it is a bestial activity which belongs in a bygone era beside slavery and colonial Imperialism.

      How can we preach to the world the sense of renewable energy and a greener planet with cleaner air when here in Scotland we revel in the persecution of our wild creatures and promote barren and unnatural landscapes all to facilitate the recreational slaughter of the feathered and furry innocents? How dare we sit in judgement over Brazilian loggers cutting down their rainforest, or poachers in Africa and Asia pushing their game species to extinction? Where are our bears, wolves, bison, boar, lynx, and polecats? Where is our Great Caledonian Pine forest, that globally unique ecosystem of European Boreal Pine Forest which shares latitude with the great pine forests of Canada and Russia but was spared the numbing excesses of plunging winter temperatures by the Continental drift? We once had a globally unique ecosystem, and we let it be destroyed to the point of virtual disappearance. And all for what?

      But even now, it isn’t too late. There are remnants we can redevelop if we are committed. We can reverse it. We can physically heal our country and heal ourselves at the same time.

      http://www.pnas.org/content/114/30/E6089

      That’s the kind of Scotland I want to live in. Visit Scotland should be ashamed of themselves.

      As for the rest of us, why are we so blind to the wonderful and wonderous potential we have in this majestic country we live in? We live in a felled paradise that would heal itself and regrow, if only we would let it, and reintroduce some missing and absent friends.

      Scotland’s destiny must not to be as a playground for the gilded and blood thirsty rich elites. Their time is ending, and history will judge their husbandry of our natural landscape and wildlife as a dismal, dismal failure. What we do next can, and must, be so very much richer, inclusive, and spiritually uplifting.

      When you can close your eyes at night and see the vision, the journey seems so easy and so thoroughly worthwhile. Why do you want Independence?

    169. heedtracker says:

      All BBC r4 week’s been City of London propaganda week, led by Mervyn King of BBC r4 fame. Mervyn and beeb gimps say City spivs are not actually crooks and spivs, they may have been but have all now turned into “nice” people now, at a cost of hundreds of billions.

      Then there’s the people that actually pay for the City crooks, for whom the great Crash Gordon hadnt the faintest idea what same spivs were really up to, for a decade at least, of what used to be called white collar crime.

      If Chancellor Gordon did know what the City slickers were doing, he did nothing too. Not sure which is worse really. Crash and his fellow socialist workers are all minted now, so that’s nice.

      City/Westminster/BBC, psycho crooks to the last, or in reality, greed is good, UKOK style.

      http://archive.is/FiXkP

    170. Capella says:

      Hi Smallaxe – yes I hope they do fall into their own trap.

      Michelle was choosing her words very carefully. We have not heard the last from her I think. If I was Mr Cole-Hamilton I would be very worried about Liberal leaflets circulated in Edinburgh West.

      Thx for video of Grosvenor Square demos. I wasn’t there myself but knew of people who had been. The good old days indeed!

    171. heedtracker says:

      Michelle was choosing her words very carefully. We have not heard the last from her I think. If I was Mr Cole-Hamilton I would be very worried about Liberal leaflets circulated in Edinburgh West.”

      Wont Cole Hamilton, beeb Scotland gimps etc just fall back on the Alistair Carmichael doctrine, that in teamGB land, you can lie and smear as hard as you like, especially as an MP or MSP, but its not slander because as an MP or MSP, you have two legal personalities?

      So in Law, one has nothing to do with the other. Or in Carmichael’s case, enough Orcadians thought what Carmichael did was actually vote worthy?

    172. Ghillie says:

      Breeks @ 12.05

      Re the cynical promotion of shooting grouse and the impact on our birds of prey and environment and ANY killin for the ‘fun’of it – am with you 100% !! And the regeneration of our Calledonian Forest =)

      Independent Scotland will have alot of healing to do on so many levels. And we WILL do it Breeks 🙂

      Smallaxe and everyone, have a lovely day = )

    173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The SNP is quite considerably the victim of its own tactics which I cannot understand.

      If it does not campaign and concentrate on the independence question it allows the whole media to root about looking for and finding dozens of reasons to attack it across a whole range of irrelevances. This is what is happening.

      Feel strongly for Michelle Thomson, understand she has had a bad and very painful deal while also understanding that the SNP putting her aside would have been a very difficult judgement call but also very deeply disappointed in her going public against the SNP and Nicola.

      I have known lots of people in the SNP over my many years who have bitten their tongues and got on with the battle.

      But all this, which is par for the course in any organisation which has human beings in it, would have been swallowed up in the background if we were going full out for independence and they were having to battle with us on that battleground.

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @gordoz says: 6 August, 2017 at 10:31 am:

      ” … Yes she has a gripe with the SNP but is was the frigging BBC that did the hounding was it not ?

      Well actually she has no real gripe with the SNP nor with the SNP leadership. There are, though, many things being misdirected by the Media – as usual.

      Let us just consider the real facts instead of the evil and intentional media interpretations of the facts.

      When this story first broke it was a total and complete fabrication and misrepresentation by the media from the word go. In fact there wasn’t really a reasonable story to begin with.

      First of all Michelle Thomson was not ever under investigation for anything, by anyone, other than the media itself who were ranging far and wide seeking to discredit, (mainly newly elected female SNP MPs), and Michelle Thomson was not alone in being selected by the media for that, continuing, unionist witch hunt.

      No other organisation had, or has, been investigating Michelle Thomson. Not Police Scotland, not the Procurators Fiscal and not the Scottish Law Society. These were all only investigating a suspected lawyer who only the Scottish Law Society had said they were investigating and/or were accusing of unprofessional conduct of breaking the Scottish Law Society strict guidelines. Which guidelines, BTW, are not in themselves unlawful actions.

      The Lawyer was NOT part of Michelle Thomson’s business setup but they had only engaged to arrange specific bank loans. Furthermore, there were actually no wicked, “Moral Ground”, issues either. These were trumped up ideas by the media. So the only, “Wicked Moral Grounds”, on display throughout this sorry mess were those of the media and unionist political parties who trumped up this trash.

      The truth was that Michelle Thomson, to her great credit, voluntarily approached Police Scotland and offered whatever help and information she could to assist them in their investigations. She was NOT approached by Police Scotland – she went to them to offer any help she could.

      Secondly Michelle Thomson was NOT expelled from the SNP parliamentary group – she voluntarily resigned the SNP Parliamentary Whip. The effect of that resignation was to instantly make her an Independent MP and an ex-SNP member.

      So it automatically made her choose to resign from the SNP as being in opposition to the SNP Group in the Commons and that is against SNP Party Rules. So she took herself out of the SNP parliamentary Group and out of the SNP as a party member. Nicola Sturgeon then had no political control over whatever Michelle Thomson did. Now bear in mind that Michelle Thomson did this in what was, in her opinion, for the good of the party.

      On the other hand the SNP parliamentary Group have steadfastly offered Michelle Thomson their unanimous support. So the whole sorry mess was concocted, and blown out of all proportion, by only the unionists and the unionist supporting media.

      Essentially Nicola Sturgeon would have been on very dangerous ground if she had made any kind of approaches to Michelle Thomson and would, without doubt, have been subjected to the media and unionist propaganda lies, even more than she has already suffered. Not to put too fine a point to it – as the current media propaganda this morning on BBC Scotland shows only too well, the Media are still at it right now.

      “The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”, is that:-

      Michelle Thomson has never been questioned by Police Scotland over this matter. She volunteered to assist the Police.

      Michelle Thomson has never been under investigation by Police Scotland as she only volunteered to, “assist them with their enquiry”, in their investigations of another person’s actions.

      Michelle Thomson has never been charged, cautioned or investigated for anything whatsoever in relation to this other person’s activities.

      Michelle Thomson has NOT thus been, “exonerated”, of anything for, to be “exonerated”, from something you have to have been, at least accused of, having actually done something wrong.

      Michelle Thomson was not expelled from the SNP Parliamentary Group – she resigned from it.

      Michelle Thomson was not expelled from the SNP because, as an SNP member she reject the party whip and thus took herself out of the party.

      Michelle Thomson has no gripe with Nicola Sturgeon, because as she is a non-member of the party, Nicola has no control over non-members and as the SNP Leader Nicola has no right to interfere in whatever Michelle Thomson cared to do as an independent MP.

      However, none of that will prevent the media, and in particular BBC Scotland, continuing to bleat, sheep-like, “SNP BAAAD!”.

      Nor will it prevent certain Wingers from attempting to also get in with their own sheeple-like versions of, “SNP BAAAD””, and, “Nicola Sturgeon BAAD!”. In fact they are already at that ploy in this very thread and never they will never miss any chances to do so. Beware the enemy within.

    175. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker – I haven’t seen the leaflets but commenteers on WoS seemed to think they were pretty defamatory. During an election campaign you’re not an MP; and didn’t the Orkney case decision rest on the point about lying about an opposing “candidate”?

    176. Valerie says:

      @Petra

      Agree with your sentiments on MT. It must be horrendous to be under suspicion, accused for 2 years, BUT my motto is vengeance is a dish best served cold.

      It’s not often I have taken vengeance, and only to have my say, or set the record straight.

      In this instance, imo, MT should have sat back, decided what she wanted out of this, and then prepared her own short statement. That could have been distributed, whilst she took legal advice, decide where she wanted apologies made etc.

      By speaking to msm, you give them lots of ammo, which is now being fired in different directions.

      I understand she feels damaged, hurt, sore but big mistake to shoot from the hip so soon.

    177. Smallaxe says:

      Breeks @ 12:05pm;

      An excellent post, as usual, Breeks, this video shows what differences can be made to the environment. I don’t say that this would be welcomed here in Scotland but the change is remarkable.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q&ab_channel=SustainableHuman

    178. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      6 August, 2017 at 1:08 pm
      @ heedtracker – I haven’t seen the leaflets but commenteers on WoS seemed to think they were pretty defamatory. During an election campaign you’re not an MP; and didn’t the Orkney case decision rest on the point about lying about an opposing “candidate”?

      Good point. Me not as defamation lawyer.

      Look at the Carbuncle case timeline though. He was still an MP, campainging, unless declaration of an election ends MP status.

      Carbuncle’s thing was an out and out blatant lie but he got off with it in court because the Judges ruling of the Law was that he was a both a private citizen and an MP. Ergo, an MP can literally say anything, but its not a reflection or the responsibility of the private non MP Carbuncle.

      So he won.

      It does all come to down the Judges interpretation/ruling of the Law, which is why there’s the appeal courts. With anything UKOK tory, its covered all over in this kind of beeb gimpery.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35049150

      “Four constituents raised the action under the Representation of the People Act 1983, claiming he misled voters over a leaked memo before the election.

      Judges said Mr Carmichael had told a “blatant lie” in a TV interview about when he had become aware of the memo.

      But they ruled it had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt that he had committed an “illegal practice”.

      As WoS often points, beeb gimps leave fact to the very last,

      “In the ruling, Lady Paton said Mr Carmichael had told a “blatant lie” in the Channel 4 interview – but that section 106 of the Representation of the People Act did not apply to lies in general.

      “It applies only to lies in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting that candidate’s return,” she said.

      “The judges said they had been left with a “reasonable doubt” about whether the lie could be characterised as a false statement of fact “in relation to [his] personal character or conduct”.

      They held that his election was not void.”

      Like I said, I’m not a lawyer but you can bet we will hear a lot more of this Carbuncle doctrine, re WoS v Dugdale.

      Can she pull off a Carbuncle? Its probably all they’ve got legally. Politically, there’s a whole galaxy of UKOK hackdom out there, waiting to lay down yoon Law.

      Don’t try pulling off a Carbuncle at home either folks:D

    179. heedtracker says:

      And so this could be worth testing in court for Cole Hamilton and his slanderous campaigning, allegedly:D

      Lady Paton let Carbuncle off with it because he was an MP at the time,

      “It applies only to lies in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting that candidate’s return,” she said.

      But as we know Cole Hamilton was not, wiki says,

      “Cole-Hamilton stood in several constituencies unsuccessfully as a Lib Dem candidate in Scottish Parliament elections in 2003 for the Kirkcaldy constituency; 2007 in Stirling and 2011 in Edinburgh Central.”

      But look at the costs though. Carbuncle’s case cost at least two hundred grand. That’s a lot of money, even for a property magnate like MT, worth the same as your average 2 up 2 down in Hackney.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      There are two very different reasons someone like Michelle Thonson could “go public” with criticisms of the SNP.

      The first would obviously be vengeance for what she sees as a lack of support, and indeed being pressurised to refuse the whip. But that doesn’t go along with her expressed wish to get back into the SNP and stand again as a candidate.

      The second is to highlight what she sees as problems with the SNP, and use the interest the media has in her to try to get reforms. Looking at that SH article, what she says is that a couple shouldn’t be both leader and chief executive.

      Well, perhaps with hindsight, Peter Murrell should have stepped down as CE. His job – as husband – should be to support his wife as both leader of the SNP, and FM, to “have her back”, and it does seem he’s spent a lot of time on that, as he should. But that’s time and concentration he can’t spend on absorbing 100,000 new members into a party which needed to change to fully use them. He is, after all, just one human being, with only 24 hours in a day.

      If MT’s aim is to make the SNP hierarchy including Murrell to think again, perhaps she is doing the SNP a favour, and acting as a noisy but loyal SNP member.

      So it’s really up to the SNP to consider carefully what she says, rather than dismiss it as “sour grapes”.

    181. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers who said: “she voluntarily resigned the SNP Parliamentary Whip”.

      Are you certain of that?

      That’s not what I get from the latest reports. What they seem to be saying is that MT didn’t want to resign the whip but was told by a party aide that if she didn’t walk she would be pushed.

      “It was not my choice and it was not my decision.” the Herald claims to quote from MT. The article names Derek Mackay as the person who told her she would need to resign.

      So, if the media are correct, she was coerced into resigning the whip. I wouldn’t call that voluntary.

    182. Petra says:

      @ Capella at 11:37am ………. “Michelle Thomson does call out Kezia Dugdale, the BBC and the press.”

      @ Valerie at 1:23pm …………”My motto is vengeance is a dish best served cold.”

      Thanks for the link Capella. I posted following reading the Sunday Herald article (damning for Nicola Sturgeon and her husband) and before hearing her interview. After listening to her interview I wonder why she didn’t contact Nicola Sturgeon first and give her the opportunity to explain her actions before trotting off to bare her soul to what (and is) was clearly her number one enemy. She seems to be totally oblivious to the fact that she was just a means to an end, that is that the SNP was the target, and that she’s fallen right into their trap.

      And Valerie I totally agree with your motto, as it’s something I abide by too when the occasion (very infrequently) arises. I just don’t get why her first port of call was to the very people who caused the most damage. I’ve still got an image in my head of the BBC’s Campbell sitting in a ‘poor, vulnerable’ person’s house practically spoon feeding them with guff, as they sobbed, to help achieve his (their) propagandist agenda: and God knows what they spoke about prior to the interview being recorded. Followed by Jackie Bird making a meal of it.

      M T outlines in both the SH article and the BBC interview that the last two years have been hell and yet she doesn’t seem to have a clear plan as to how to deal with it. Just barged right in. If I had been her I would have taken legal advise as to my options and if suing them was one would have gone for it. Imagine being able to truly clear your name in the most public of ways, promote the SNP and expose the BBC (and others) as a bunch of blatant liars all in one fell swoop.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      (cont – if this appears I don’t knoq what’s wrong!)

    184. Alex Clark says:

      Michelle Thomson has not done herself any favours I would think by running to the very media who caused her and the SNP all the problems in the first place.

      Could the SNP have done more right at the beginning of this smear attack? Quite possibly and in her mind at least she feels she has been wronged by the SNP leadership.

      Taking this grievance about SNP leadership to the media was I think the totally wrong thing to do and will likley backfire as she will find herself making headlines again over the next few days in the media who so wronged her. Her legitimate and rightful grievance against those journalists and newspapers will be totally ignored and it will all be about how the SNP let her down and Nicola Sturgeon let her down.

      To be honest I’m now not entirely surprised that the leadership decided not to bring her back into the fold when they could have. She should rightly be angry at her treatment, though her anger should have been directed at and focused on the Media who hounded her, made up headlines to smear her and even lied about her implying guilt at every opportunity.

      Instead I feel she has walked straight into another media trap with her eyes wide open. Never trust the media.

    185. Petra says:

      Oops my IPad started birling and my last post shot off prematurely! Anyway I see that ‘advise’ should read as ‘advice.’

      What I did want to say is that I don’t ‘get’ the Crown Office issuing a statement about Michelle Thomson at all. If she didn’t commit a crime, wasn’t charged of any crime and not referred to the Procurator Fiscal why was her name even mentioned last week? Why did the Crown Office issue the statement “The absence of sufficient credible and reliable evidence means that there should be no criminal proceedings at this time.”

      I also see, as expected, that the BBC (and the rest) is now going to town with the poor, victimised Michelle Thomson versus big, bad Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP. Anyone else on here beginning to think that they are going totally doolally?

    186. crazycat says:

      @ Nana at 9.59 / Valerie at 10.17

      That article about Kwasi Kwarteng is dated 11 June 2015.

      I’m sure he won’t have abandoned the idea – he was one of the Britannia Unchained quartet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained) of new(ish) Tory MPs and seems to be pretty unpleasant.

      But it may not be something that is being seriously considered right now.

    187. Petra says:

      It’s a pretty sad state of affairs. Nicola Sturgeon is now being castigated for doing no more than distancing herself and her party from someone who was being reported (true or false?) as having ripped off vulnerable people. Additionally her legal knowledge may have kicked in, as she pointed out to Dugdale and Davidson don’t interfere until the case has been resolved.

      I also heard Ruth Davidson mention dates going back to December 2014 and asking Nicola Sturgeon if she was basically trying to con us all into thinking that she knew nothing about the case until the Times published an article on it in September 2015. Nicola Sturgeon stated that she hadn’t, so I’m just wondering if there’s more to this than meets the eye? Michelle Thomson also came across in the BBC interview as seemingly having no knowledge of protocol, so did she sit on information and leave Nicola Sturgeon to be hit with and have to deal with a bombshell right out of the blue?

      Now we have MT dragging Nicola Sturgeon’s husband into the fray (what’s that all about?) even although she admits to not knowing of any ‘wrongdoing.’ You would have thought that she, of all people, would have learned a lesson about people making (or implying) accusations about another, however veiled they should be.

      Well whatever the case she’s just joined the Jim Sillars club. The crew that professes to wanting Independence but have us all taking one step forward and two back.

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      Part 3 (what on earth is the stupid filter trap actually complaining about, I’ve tried 3 different things now, so a rewrite might appear)

      If Thomson wants to make the SNP hierarchy including Murrell think seriously about their make-up, her exposee could be doing the SNP a favour, and she could be acting as a noisy but loyal SNP member with its best interests at heart.

      If the SNP is up to it, they should consider what she says very carefully, rather than dismiss it out of hand.

    189. yesindyref2 says:

      grapes? maybe it doesn’t like grapes?

    190. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 …… “She could be acting as a noisy but loyal SNP member with its best interests at heart.”

      Aye right! She’s just castigated Nicola Sturgeon and her husband (what’s he got to do with her situation?) via the LAST people / agency that anyone with half a brain would go to. Next up a full media blitz on Murrell.

      To be honest if I were Nicola Sturgeon and / or her husband I would be absolutely seething with rage right now. These two people have been working their butts off on behalf of Independence supporters and the last thing they needed was to have the blame, for MT making a profit from people in dire straits (not illegal but immoral) and a vindictive biased media, being plumped on them.

      Michelle Thomson talked about the fantastic communications she’d been getting from ordinary supporters. I think she’ll find it’s dwindling now.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      On another subject almost, on those two Herald threads someone posted a list of the following names:

      Heed tracker
      Robert Peffers
      Capella
      Rock
      Colin Alexander
      yesindyref2
      Liz g
      Ken 500
      Vronsky
      Proud Cybernat
      Robert J. Sutherland
      Robert Louis
      Sensible Dave
      Breeks
      Petra
      Joannie
      Meg Merrilees
      Alex Clark
      Thepnr
      galamcennalath

      you’d be interested to see in what context we’ve all been listed 🙂

    192. Alex Clark says:

      @yesindyref2

      Paid troll! Good to know I’m getting double the wages of the rest though LOL.

    193. yesindyref2 says:

      @Alex Clark
      Ha, sneaky swine, I should have got another ID as well.

      Still, I’m flattered I’m in such illustrious company 🙂

      Rev gets an alluded mention too of course, otherwise why would he have blocked such a posting?

    194. Alex Clark says:

      That’s a very strange list of “trolls”.

      Sensible Dave hasn’t posted in weeks if not months and Alex Clark has only been posting a week or so. Who would search through weeks old posts to find Sensible Dave and then recent posts to include Alex Clark?

      That’s not normal behaviour and I see no need for anyone to do that. Also Alex Clark and Thepnr have never appeared on the same post together other than over 3 years ago. So the publisher of this list would have to collected names from at least 3 articles over the last couple of months. Why?

      Very weird, I can only guess there a few genuine paid trolls being mixed in there with genuine posters. I wonder who?

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      @Alex Clark
      I recognise the poster’s name, but can’t think of the profile and unfortunately the “new” format forum doesn’t allow clicking on the name and getting the previous list of postings. There were one or two who were perhaps too extreme to be genuine though, “he” might be one of them.

      There’s a good few attempts to discredit Wings right now, not from outside but inside the movement, and this could be an attempt to sow more discord and add to the attempts at destruction.

      Best just laughing at it! It is, after all, often the biggest compliment of all when someone tries to put you down, as it shows they realise you’re effective.

    196. heedtracker says:

      Alex Clark says:
      6 August, 2017 at 5:11 pm
      That’s a very strange list of “trolls”.

      Sensible Dave hasn’t posted in weeks if not months and Alex Clark has only been posting a week or so

      Colin A tastes a lot like Sensible D, crunchy, whines like a yoon going down too:D

      What’s the list about guys? Herald fights with adblock but cant be arsed switching it off for their garbage.

    197. Alex Clark says:

      Poster on the Herald btl on the Ross Greer article had this to say:

      Matthew Brown3 hrs ago
      “Wings Over Scotland” has paid Trolls on its books now:

      Heed tracker
      Robert Peffers
      Capella
      Rock
      Colin Alexander
      yesindyref2
      Liz g
      Ken 500
      Vronsky
      Proud Cybernat
      Robert J. Sutherland
      Robert Louis
      Sensible Dave
      Breeks
      Petra
      Joannie
      Meg Merrilees
      Alex Clark
      Thepnr
      galamcennalath

      Try posting that list of Trolls onto Wings and the Rev Stu blocks you, WHY???

    198. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I can only spot 3 names I think are trolls on that list @Alex Clark says at 6:02 pm

      Wonder if ‘Matthew Brown’ is looking to become a court room Martyr ala Dugdale?

      Smells a bit suspect anyhoo.

    199. heedtracker says:

      Try posting that list of Trolls onto Wings and the Rev Stu blocks you, WHY???

      Is that all? Oh well what can you do.

      It is true that WoS does pay off, if you read it, in all kinds of amazing ways too:D

    200. K1 says:

      ‘BBC Scotland tells lies’ was often accusing Heed and Robert Peffers as being one and the same and others on that list as being trolls, could it be the same poster?

    201. Alex Clark says:

      @K1

      Doesn’t really matter who the poster doing it is, just a bit strange and feels like it’s getting personal. I for one have news them. I for one don’t give a fuck.

      They’ll slip up K1 always happens, boys will be boys as Maggie loved to say.

    202. heedtracker says:

      K1 says:
      6 August, 2017 at 6:46 pm
      ‘BBC Scotland tells lies’ was often accusing Heed and Robert Peffers as being one and the same and others on that list as being trolls, could it be the same poster?

      There was one but I think he was kicked off WoS btl, saw Rev say something like that, btl.

      It was pretty rotten to people like Cappella though.

      I know I’m a bit of a flamer, take on all comers:D

    203. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “(cont – if this appears I don’t knoq what’s wrong!)”

      OH MY GOD HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE TO NOT MAKE 25 ATTEMPTS AT POSTING THE SAME FRIGGING COMMENT? IF THE FILTERS CATCH IT I’LL GET ROUND TO SORTING IT WHEN I’M CHECKING MANUALLY.

    204. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Try posting that list of Trolls onto Wings and the Rev Stu blocks you, WHY???”

      Because I decide who is and isn’t a troll here, nobody else.

    205. yesindyref2 says:

      It would help if the filtered word was just changed to asterisks, so it would appear as “g****s”.

      Unless there’s an actual list published somewhere on the site posters could actually consult if their posting didn’t appear until the thread was dead and buried.

      Ho hum.

    206. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 at 4:30pm …….”List.”

      Thanks for the laugh and a bit of a strange list with at least four of the named I’m sure anti-Independence. So I’m now wondering if I’m supposed to be for or against, lol?

    207. Capella says:

      It was pretty rotten to people like Cappella though.

      It’s Capella. One P.
      Water under bridge 🙂

    208. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 18:46 (06.Aug.2017),

      Sorry, just catching up again after a family outage, but your thought that was my immediate one also. Either another of those sad sufferers from The Nirvana Fallacy or an actual concern troll themselves.

      Hmmm. Just a thought: is it defamatory to accuse someone who is an unconditional supporter of independence of being a troll on WoS?

      Though I do also have to admit to a certain secret satisfaction at having been judged sufficiently noteworthy to have been publicly “named and shamed”, even if by a nonentity even more obscure than my humble self!

      Och well, another stint with the family will soon put even that little hint of self-importance right!

    209. Wullie B says:

      A certain JW Buchan back on Facebook @Rev Stu

    210. Terry Callachan says:

      Look…I think England is a fantastic country but I just do not want England making decisions on behalf of Scotland.
      Scotland can make its own decisions.
      18% of the people living in Scotland are English people.
      We have been colonised and not by accident.
      Nearly all the English people that live in Scotland are here temporarily they do plan to return to England.They came here to study or work.
      Scotland wants independence
      It is crazy for any country that wants independence to let people who are from the country they are trying to break free from ,have a vote on that independence and yet Scotland does exactly that.
      We let people from England have a vote on Scottish independence even though we know they are nearly all here temporarily.
      Yes I hear you there are some a tiny number who are here permanently a tiny number who say they will and have voted for Scottish independence but be clear about this,nearly all of the English people living in Scotland vote against Scottish independence.
      As I’ve said 18% of people in Scotland are English 17.5% vote NO and 0.5% or less vote YES.
      The 17.5% that vote NO actually account for about 38% of the total NO vote
      When more than a third of NO voters are from the country you are trying to break free from you simply have to say that it is undemocratic to allow them to vote.
      Remember too that Englands Westminster did not allow European citizens to vote in the Brexit vote so Scotland is well within its rights to say that for a fair and just decision English people will not be allowed to vote in the next Scottish independence referendum.
      I’ve heard people say that if this was the case we should then allow Scottish people who no longer live in Scotland have a vote on Scottish independence but i counter that by saying that if Scottish people decided to leave Scotland to live elsewhere fair enough but you can’t have it both ways they should not have a vote on Scottish independence for that very reason…they have left.
      You cannot expect a vote on the independence of each and every country you happen to live in
      I have lived in seven countries it would be crazy and undemocratic if I had voted on the independence of each of those countries just because I happened to be living there at the time .
      If you want to have a vote on a country,s independence then you should take their nationality as many do.
      English people cannot take Scottish nationality at present but once Scotland is independent they will be able to do so.



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