Scottish independence referendum, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


On our own two feet

Posted on December 22, 2013 by

As a civil servant in London in the 1960s, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to closely examine the UK’s “books” for myself in an official capacity, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite: that Scotland contributed far more to the UK economy than its other partners. And this, of course, was all before the oil boom.

treasury

I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed the then-fledgling nationalistic tendencies north of the border. I decided to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the machinery of Westminster, aided and abetted by the media, did an excellent job of keeping the myth about “subsidised” Scotland alive.

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour appeared.

This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by Alex Salmond (then an MP) to the Tory government of the day, Treasury minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979, or around £5,400 for every Scot – a statistic which received barely any media coverage.

A year later, with a Labour government now in power, came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998 Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland’s GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the OECD wealth league. A second table showed that the UK was in 16th place.

The UK government now refuses to release the first table to the public.

gdp1997

Looking closely at the figures a few years later and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2.8 billion, which works out at £560 a year for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion. The prophecies of the 1975 McCrone Report, which successive Labour and Tory governments had desperately suppressed for three decades, had been borne out.

The alternative future Scotland had been robbed of over the years is illustrated in the UN’s “Human Development Index”. The closest thing to a league table of the world’s best countries, in ranks nations on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy. In 2013, for the 10th time in the last 12 years, oil-rich Norway topped the list.

A country the size of Scotland with broadly comparable oil resources, Norway had of course wisely created an “oil fund” in 1995, which just five years later had reached a total of £250 billion – enabling the Norwegians to sail through the credit crunch despite having delayed the starting of the fund for 20 years. Since 2000 the value of that fund has more than doubled to £0.51 trillion.

norwayfund

With the oil boom, Scotland’s economy should have been transformed. Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with the lion’s share of £300 billion, which would have pushed Scotland up from a notional 7th place in world wealth rankings (had it been in control of its own resources), to 3rd place.

Current industry estimates suggest that there are at least 40-50 years (and perhaps twice that) of significant North Sea production remaining, with a total value in excess of £1 trillion and possibly as high as £4 trillion according to independent experts.

(For the North Sea alone – that figure excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland, and any that might be discovered off the west coast of the mainland.)

It’s not all about oil. It is no longer disputed that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK. In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism. Whisky exports alone, which even in 1968 were one of Scotland’s top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate. For example, sales of the spirit to China rocketed in just eight years between 2001 and 2009 from £1 million to £80 million.

But Scotland’s real riches do lie in energy. The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the border, with much of the back-up provided by hydro power unused. And even without nuclear, the future looks bright. The Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by the Queen in 2009 but almost immediately closed again by a massive construction flaw, reopened last year and can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes – the whole of Glasgow – by itself.

glendoe

Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost half of Scotland. Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future, as Scotland takes hold of  a renewable-energy bonanza which will dwarf the proceeds of North Sea oil, and never run out.

There is, of course, a reason that the Unionist parties and media focus on the latter, finite, resource rather than the endless former one. The No campaign is, in more ways than one, a massive confidence trick.

.

John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Treasury, and is currently Vice President of Scottish CND. A version of this article first appeared on his blog.

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  1. 15 04 14 22:33

    The historical debt | GlaWest

179 to “On our own two feet”

  1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Excellent.
    Thanks Rev Stu.

  2. MajorBloodnok says:

    Excellent.
    Thanks John Jappy. ;)

  3. Dal Riata says:

    Thank you John Jappy. And thanks Stu for enabling us all to see this. 
     
    Another nail in the Better together coffin.

  4. turnip_ghost says:

    Fantastic article! Easy to access and concise information that can really hit home! Especially about the energy being produced by that dam! I didn’t know anything about that!

  5. Papadocx says:

    Excellent article. John Jappy, thanks for bringing it to my attention rev.
     
    WE ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT TOO WEE!
     
    WE ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT TOO POOR!
     
    WE HAVE BEEN DECEIVED FOR CENTURIES! USED AND ABUSED BY OUR “FRIENDS” THE ESTABLISHMENT VIA HMG & POLITICIANS!
     
    ARE WE TOO STUPID NOW?
     
    WE WILL SEE.

  6. Dan Vevers says:

    I remember first reading this article almost 2 years ago – in my own journey towards the pro-independence position it was probably one of the most important pieces I ever read.

    Great to see it getting republished on Wings.

  7. Creag an Tuirc says:

    More John Jappy articles please. I’ve always said that the SNP should demand that John Swinney have access to the treasury books and not this GERS mince. Yes, they would refuse but what would that refusal say to the Scots?

  8. Andy-B says:

    Very good article John thanks for posting it.
     
    Oh how different things could have been for Scotland and Scots (In a better way)
     
    If we weren’t cheated out of the 1979 referendum result.

  9. panda paws says:

    Excellent piece Mr Jappy though depressing to read how we have been taken for a ride for so long.

    @ Dal Riata. It will only be another nail in Better Together’s coffin if the people of Scotland get to read it. I know people who haven’t heard of the McCrone report – well until I tell them!!

    Please tweet, reblog, and post btl everywhere you can.

  10. Xander says:

    It really makes you think how deceitful our so called Government in Westminster really are. If they can cover this up without shame, then what else are they hiding.

    I can’t help but think how many lives in Scotland have been affected or impaired by Westminster and their poodle London Press. It does not matter any more to me what Westminster or their media apparatchiks say, as they have already proven themselves to be liars, and therefore ineligible for any measure of political trust.

    I will only ever vote for a party that is wholly and only constituted in Scotland. In other words, Westminster Labour, Westminster Lib-Dems and Westminster Tories need not bother trying to persuade me to back them in future. They’ll get told where to sling their hook.

    PS When, Mr Cameron, can we expect an apology to the Scottish electorate from Westminster Government concerning the lies and false accusations of being subsidy-junkies and scroungers? You and your predecessors are the liars and scroungers Mr Cameron. Time to ‘fess up!

    PS I was looking forward to the article, and I wasn’t disappointed.

  11. Brian Powell says:

    We might expect all of this from Westminster, but it is now difficult to find words to describe our Scottish politicians in Labour and the ConDems who have conspired to keep this from the public, along the media.
     
    I suppose, ‘self serving bunch of bastards’ would be a start. If this post was much further down the thread I could come up with a few more. I’ll wait until there are a lot more posts!
     
    But even self serving doesn’t quite work. Do they see themselves as so far removed from the effects of the lies and the starvation of our economy that it will never touch them?
     
    A couple of years ago the staff of the Scotsman for example might have thought that but their jobs are now quickly dwindling.
     
    The first cracks in the facade of impartiality from the BBC are being brought out into the open with Newsnet Scotland’s series of inveatigations, staring with:
    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8490-exclusive-trust-finds-bbc-scotland-guilty-of-breaking-guidelines-over-eu-indy-story
     
    Corruption and collusion rots everything and it will come to haunt them, the Referendum isn’t the end of the road.

  12. Neil says:

    stupid question: Has the FM released the letter? The missing table I mean?

  13. Andymac says:

    Thank you John for all you do for your Country, and thank you Stu for the same :) 
     

  14. “Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2.8 billion, which works out at £560 a year for every man, woman and child.” Yet people in our country are relying on food banks. Makes me want to vomit.

  15. Sandy Milne says:

    It’s no big surprise. Looking at the relative populations of Scotland and the rUK it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work this out. With the collapse of Industry in England, Wales and NI there is a huge burden on the state with no means of generating any revenue in terms of exports whatsoever.
     
    A large population and consumerism can only achieve so much in terms of a tax base and with London in particular manufacturing nothing of any substance there is bound to be an imbalance in the economy that has to be funded elsewhere.  

  16. msean says:

    Very enlightening,we have been ripped off more than we thought.What else is buried in the books.Scroungers indeed,and it isn’t the Scots.

  17. Douglas Young says:

    Thanks for this article. 
    Surely one newspaper could put this on their from page. 

  18. gordoz says:

    Thankyou John Jappy & Wings team for this brilliant piece.
     
    If only YES Scotland and SNP would get their act toghether and get this material in ciruclation by citation on the sites or otherwise. To quote Chris Tarrant from Tiswas .. ‘This is what they want !!’ This is what the public need to hear !
     
    But all it will take in Scotland, is for the state broadcasters BBC / STV, the Herald, Daily Rehash or the other Scottish Labour outlets to rubbish this and of course its credibility will be deminished. 

  19. EphemeralDeception says:

    I think the SNP will capitalise on these details closer to the referendum.
    For example – they have stated that splitting of Assets and debts can take the view to compare finances back 30 or 40 years.  The treasury letter to Salmond would be a key basis for such a discussion and would answer questions for what looks like, on the surface, an arbitrary date.
     
    However YES Scotland need to get this detail and all relevant facts out to all the YES campaigners.

  20. Jim says:

    On the John Piner show on radio5 live this morning, Kenneth Clark, former Chancellor and member of the current government said that a Yes vote in next year’s referendum would be damaging to both Scotland and England, but “more so” for England.
    It wont of course be damaging to Scotland. We all know the Union is damaging to Scotland.

  21. Bertie K says:

    Interesting Epic on the early days of Oil to be found here;
    http://www.pagetutor.com/standard/chapter01_part1.html
    A wee insight into how the west was won, the pitfalls, the signs etc.

  22. Murray McCallum says:

    Great article John. The double insult of zero recognition for Scotland’s key financial contribution to the UK being replaced by the ‘subsidised jocks’ lie.
     
    The hydro figures are impressive aren’t they? Oil is truly a bonus on top.

  23. Papadocx says:

    Newspapers are not there to report the truth or criminality, unless it suite the Establishment and the owners. Newspapers, BBC ect. are there to MANIPULATE AND SPIN THE ESTABLISHMENTS PROPAGANDA, they most certainly are not there to educate and inform the stupid voters! 90% of reported news is tittle tattle (rubbish) just to hide the main message in, THE PROPAGANDA GENERATED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT TO CON THE VOTERS. 
     
    SO If you are waiting on the FREE press to enlighten us, I hope you are sitting comfortably And have a thick cushion. 

  24. Macart says:

    “Aided and abetted by the media”
     
    Some things never change.
     
    Excellent post.

  25. Susan S says:

    Great article.   No harm to them, but I seriously think the rUK could slide into another recession once our finances are worked out and they calculate what they’ve lost.  Imagine how betrayed the rUK population will be to hear that all the previous and present governments have been lying all this time about Scotland being subsidised by them.

  26. AnneDon says:

    I read this a couple of years ago. Although I was already on the Yes side, it was interesting to see two things in it.  The first, of course, being the duplicity of successive Westminster governments;  however, more importantly, that Scotland paid its way even before the discovery of oil, and so could do so without it again.
     
    I’ve shared and reshared this on FB; I’ll be doing so for a few days!
     
    Thanks Rev, and Mr Jappy.

  27. Thepnr says:

    FACT: Scotland subsidises rUK to the tune of £500/year for every man/woman/child.
    FACT: Scotland would have a Balance of Payments Surplus. rUK Deficit would double
    FACT: If we don’t grab this opportunity now, we are MUGS

    I’d also like to thank Alex Taylor for the “Aye Right” business cards as well. They are really useful on taxi drivers. Cheers Alex.

  28. velofello says:

    I really do hope that in negotiations with the rUK following a Yes to independence, that the reckoning includes claw back of the massive greedy overspend on London’s infrastructure.
     
    As regards Scotland’s unionist political parties, what have they got to say? They didn’t know? Oops that word new round the block, KNOW.
     
    Watching Chairchoop Davidson’s performance at Scottish Question Time this week reminded me of an observation by a past political leader of Singapore who witnessed the fall of Singapore to the Japanese and how the formally snobby, affectedly superior English ladies and gentlemen started fucking whoever they could find, among themselves, of course.

  29. benarmine says:

    Mind-altering facts, deeply addictive. Thanks Rev and John Jappy. Crowdfunded TV ad midway through Coronation Street or whatever the undecided are watching?

  30. Jeannie says:

    Great article.  When I read this type of information and realise that Scotland was, in fact, a rich country since the seventies, I can’t help but reflect on my poor wee dad.  He was a milkman and went to work, rain, hail or shine at 4am in the morning.  He wasn’t well-paid, but he believed in hard work and self-reliance.  He rarely went out at night – had to be in bed early to get up early.  He worked his body done and died at the age of 56.  My mother still had two more kids to bring up on her own, worked till she was 70 and has faced years of ill health as a consequence.  I could cry when I read this and realise how much easier their lives could have been if the truth about Scotland’s wealth hadn’t been suppressed by the UK government and so many of our own Scottish politicians.  Just maybe my dad wouldn’t have died so young.  And maybe my mother’s old age would not be blighted by poor health.
     
    We need to make sure we’re never taken in by these people again – this wealth doesn’t just belong to us – it belongs to our kids and grandkids and those that come after.  It’s our duty to protect it for them.

  31. Patrician says:

    what we could have had: 7th or 3rd richest country.
     
    what  we got: 25% of children in poverty and male life expectancy worse than some 3rd world countries.
     
    I am usually a very laid back person but this really makes me angry.  If anyone says what is wrong with the British state that you want to end it ,just point out to them the lives ruined and cut short. 

  32. Papadocx says:

    Jeannie says 5:32 
    good thread well written Jeannie, aye let us not mess it up let us pass it on as I hope our offspring do

  33. caz-m says:

    The Tories aren’t so up front with their fellow countrymen either. This piece exposes George Osborne’s plans of tax relief for “fracking” and how close family and big business stand to gain millions in profits.

    http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/fracking-tories-osborne-howell-browne.html

    This shows they will sink to any depths for the benefit of the “Establishment”.

  34. Chickenhawk 2 says:

    So Mr. Jappy’s revelation now takes us back to 1968, 45 years ago, an advance on the oldest GERS figures of 32 years back. I wonder, did Scotland EVER not pay it’s way. Remember Glasgow, second city of Empire, when William Beardmore, of Parkhead Forge, had to build his yard at Dalmuir because the entire Clyde above it had no space on its banks. And he had to buy out an existing business to get the river frontage.
     
    Christ, this nation has been comprehensively screwed over since the clearances. Probably since 1746.

  35. Ian says:

    Seems to be a lot of thanking Mr Jappy.  He took long enough to come out with this information rather than wait for the truth to be revealed almost 40+ years later. 

  36. Bill McLean says:

    Chickenhawk2 – clearly if at one time the Clyde built half the world’s ships the money earned on the Clyde had to be phenomenal. Where did  it all go – Now we know! These shameless, shameful swine have destroyed too many lives to ever be forgiven!

  37. Andy-B says:

    Just read several article on your blog John, very interesting and informal.
     
    Especially the blog “Do Scots lives come cheaper” and the fact that Jackie Bailie knew and spoke about the nuclear submarines, leaking radioactive coolants into the Firth of Clyde,for many years,at dangerous levels on Newsnight Scotland.
     
    Yet as you pointed out she didn’t even bother to inform the constituents of Dumbarton, nor did she report the matter on a wider basis, I find this alone remarkable from Jackie Bailie, though not surprising.

  38. Paul Kelly says:

    Great article, as ever!

  39. Jeannie says:

    The thing to remember is that a figure of £560 per year was a lot of money back then.  In 1981/82, that would have been 20% of my take-home pay after tax and NI.  If you consider that a family of four would have benefited from four times that amount within the one household, you begin to see what a difference it might have made to living standards, especially during the horror times of ridiculously high interest rates when many people struggled to pay mortgages and some lost their homes altogether – though without Westminster mismanagement, it’s possible the problem of the high interest rates might not have occurred at all – perhaps some readers might want to speculate on this? 

  40. tony o'neill says:

    Well done Mr jappy.telling us of your knowledge of these events will enlighten thousands of your countrymen and women,so get sharing patriots of scotland.

  41. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ Jeannie – Thanks for your heartfelt post and yes a similar history to mine. I am sure you have touched a chord with many others.
     
    However it is because of our determination that those dark times do not revisit our own children and grandchildren to come. As I sit here typing my grandaughter is due on Christmas Day and when I watched the SNP Video [I am Kirsty] I knew in my heart that this was the positive and prosperous Scotland I want for my grandaughter.

  42. caz-m says:

    @Chickenhawk2

    They also gave Glasgow the tenements, (Gorbals, once classed as the one of most deprived areas in Europe), outside toilets, steamies, overcrowding in housing, malnutrition, poor education, low wages, alcoholism, violence, sectarianism, low life expectancy.

    And to bring it right up to date, food banks and the bedroom tax.

  43. Creag an Tuirc says:

    Chickenhawk 2 I was saying to a friend the other day that Scotland must have contributed some amount of tax to the treasury during the industrial revolution.

  44. kininvie says:

    When we get to contribute to our written constitution,  I’ll want to see it contain something about monies set aside for the future (e.g. the oil fund) – with specific rules to prevent venial politicians from getting their sticky fingers on it to use as election bribes or any other self-interested purpose.
     
    Let’s take a lesson from National Insurance – a contributory fund designed to build up and then pay out in hard times, but shamelessly abused by politicians almost immediately, so that now it is just another tax.
     
    We can do better than this.

  45. Jingly Jangly says:

    caz-m
    And don’t forget the scourge that is Heroin.

    Empires from the earliest days (Greek,Roman) have used Alcohol and Drugs as ways of keeping down a population, there has been record increase in Poppy production since the UK took over the lead of the Anti-Narcotics program in Afghanistan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan#Present_war_in_Afghanistan

    Give me a couple of those Drones for the day , you know the ones that they are quite happy to blow up Brown babies with and fill them up with Roundup and I could destroy the crop no problem, aye that’s including the Taliban crop, Ive a mate who served out there and he told me that some of the fields are marked as Taliban and some as “ours”. Whether that’s true or not I don’t know but certainly there is a perception amongst the troops that that is the case. 

    I remember ex SNP Leader Gordon Wilson wrote a letter into the Herald basically stating that the UK Govt was complicent in the increases in production.

    Its possibility one of the biggest scandals to be uncovered, but the press are not interested.
    I wonder why…

  46. kininvie says:

    @Jingly Jangly
     
    I recall the US had exactly the same problem in Vietnam. You destroy the crop: you turn the farmers into insurgents.  You pay them $$$ to grow wheat or something & the price of opium rises to match. Then you get tempted & think ‘if we allow them to keep the crop’, they will be on our side. In worst case ‘if we help them distribute the crop, they’ll be even more on our side’.

  47. Jeannie says:

    @kininvie
    When we get to contribute to our written constitution,  I’ll want to see it contain something about monies set aside for the future (e.g. the oil fund) – with specific rules to prevent venial politicians from getting their sticky fingers on it to use as election bribes or any other self-interested purpose.
     
    Couldn’t agree more, Kininvie.  Although I speculated in a previous post on what an extra £560 per person per year might have meant for me and for individual families, there’s nothing to say that such benefits would actually have come our way.  But if they had been used well, it could have made quite a difference.  I would agree that if we want to protect future generations, we need to make sure their wealth is protected and writing a provision to this effect into the constitution seems the best way to do it.

  48. As Scotland is an equal partner in the Uk *cough* it should be perfectly feasible for Mr Swinney to go down to the Treasury and have a wee look with his Civil Servants at the accounts.  or perhaps not?

  49. Creag an Tuirc says:

    So how do you get away with ripping off a country?

    Keep them uneducted – check
    Keep them drunk – check
    Keep them in bad health – check
    Keep them on drugs – check
    Keep them religiously divided – check
    Keep the population low – check
    Keep their self-esteem low – check
    Keep them uninformed – check
    Keep control of News and Media – check
    Keep buying off those who think – check
    Keep vilifying those who think, that can’t be bought off – check

  50. Kev says:

    If you roam around the Highlands you’ll find endless numbers of locations for pumped storage, and while I see why locals would object to them on environmental grounds, the damage is mostly limited to the initial construction phase, after which the blight on the countryside is minimal (and personally I quite like dams!).
     
    These schemes are an essential element of the renewables boom as they are the only way to store off-peak energy production from wind turbines then quickly generate it at times of peak demand. And while the Scottish Government are strongly supportive of such projects, they are hindered by a Westminster that refuses to subsidise them and also imposes higher transmission charges. The effect is that Coire Glas, which will generate 3 times as much power as Glendoe, might, according to SSE, not even be developed, and have said they won’t make a final decision until 2015 at the earliest…Well hopefully OUR decision next September will help make their decision for them…

  51. roberto says:

    I worked at sullom voe in Shetland from 1979 to 1983.During this time i saw the completion of the oil terminal and first oil ashore. The Clair field west of Shetland in the Atlantic was discovered two years earlier and capped.It is now only on line .This oil field is massive with an estimated 8 Billion plus barrels of oil.Furthermore Total oil have almost completed a new oil and gas plant in Shetland to take oil and gas from fields north and west of Shetland.These fields will produce enough gas for 20% of UK needs………A NEW OIL AND GAS BOOM IS ABOUT TO ARRIVE……………….

  52. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What a great post, and some brilliant comments.
     
    Jeannie (5.32) - take heart friend. It doesn’t matter what shite they fling at us, or what dirty tricks they resort to as they get more desperate. It doesn’t matter even if they start bumping us off one at a time – the cat is well and truly out of the proverbial now and won’t ever be put back in.
     
    This fight is for your Da and Mum and all the other parents and grandparents who’ve been used like livestock for the benefit of the putrid British ‘Establishment’. These self-appointed overlords have had it their own way for centuries – pillaging other countries, treating their own folk like serfs, and acting outraged at the very idea of having to apologise or explain.
     
    Their time is up.

  53. Marker Post says:

    Great Christmas article. Spread it around the doubters in the family after the Christmas dinner :)

  54. Chickenhawk 2 says:

    @Chickenhawk2
    They also gave Glasgow the tenements, (Gorbals, once classed as the one of most deprived areas in Europe), outside toilets, steamies,
     
    Aye, I remember my mother telling me of canvassing in the Gorbals for the CP, pre-war. But I liked the steamie,   outside toilets, or stairheid ones, hmm, not so good.

  55. Chickenhawk 2 says:

    Did I invoke cite tags there, Sorry, Rev.

  56. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Wee heads-up about the second WoS Glasgow get together – pencilled-in for Friday April 4th, at McGinn’s pub, Hope St.
     
    Seven of us confirmed so far, but aiming to get 25 before asking about booking etc. If you want to express interest, please pop over to Quarantine – especially if you’re a DJ (is that term still in usage?) and fancy doing the sounds. 

  57. velofello says:

    Mental hugs Jeannie,a touching account of your parents’ struggles.

  58. setondene says:

    Kev, hydro destroys rivers biologically.  One example is the Garry, which you’ll see from the train north to Inverness.  It used to be a famous salmon and trout river; now it’s dried up and dead.  The Highlands are full of devastated rivers like the Garry.  Hydro dams also tend to be deserts.  So yes, hydro gives us cheap renewable electricity, but there’s quite a big environmental cost.

  59. Jingly Jangly says:

    Setondrene
    we got to get our lecky somewhere, I have seen the Garry and know what you mean but give me that anyday compared to Nuclear

  60. Jingly Jangly says:

    O/T Just watching Harry Potter, has anybody seen Draco Malfroy and Alistair Darling in the same room!!!

  61. Les Wilson says:

    You know, all the things we hoped we might have, we actually DO have, I was aware of MR Jappy,( not for the same reasons as these ! )- Mc Crone and the rest. However, this is a timely submission by Mr Jappy, and a welcome one.

    This lays out the deceit of all Westminster Governments against Scotland, Tory AND Labour. It is TIME THE POPULATION WOKE UP !, and let us put an end to their crimes against us. We really must win, overlook all the lies and manipulations and let nothing deter us, we NEED our own destiny and we need it now!

  62. scaredy cat. says:

    Such a good article and so many good posts. Especially from Jeannie. I think that one echoes the feelings of many.

  63. scottish_skier says:

     So yes, hydro gives us cheap renewable electricity, but there’s quite a big environmental cost.
     
    What about natural lakes with a large waterfall as the outlet?

  64. Bigheed says:

    Mr Jappy, many thanks for supplying the ammo. However we still do not have a gun to fire this to every household in Scotland. This is my worry. We are still a long way off from Sept but I would like to see some signs of battle preparations. 
     
    Les, I 100% agree with your post, the consequences of a NO vote is unthinkable

  65. caz-m says:

    Lets be fair, there is a bit of give and take.

    They GIVE us 200 nuclear missiles on the Clyde.

    And they TAKE all our oil and gas revenues.

    That’s democracy for you.

    Give and Take.

  66. Tarian says:

    Superb article but you need to ensure that every resident of Scotland reads it. Articles like this that are strong, informative, clear and concise are dynamite. From a Welsh perspective the internet strength of Scottish nationalism is inspiring and impressive. The range of sites provide excellent analysis and all the facts are in your favour, but as you know the media will never convey this material to the voting public. For all the optimism on these sites I do worry that you are all inside a bubble and seem to forget that unless you do force your arguments into the minds of every voter then a golden chance will be lost. This is a fight you simply cannot afford to lose and you can’t leave it to individuals to print out and distribute this stuff. The clock is ticking.

  67. seoc says:

    We must dump those despicable Unionist politicians and their gutter media ASAP. They’ve ruthlessly destroyed so many of our hard-working kinfolk by their deceit, not to mention polluting our fair land.
    I would not take any part in any of their activities in any shape or form, or trade with them.
    Let’s hope all the Nations can now see them for what they are.

  68. Bill C says:

    This is a very important article which should be shared far and wide. It is very readable and will be easily understood by folk with little interest in politics. I intend printing it off and giving copies to as many folk as possible. I really do think that if the Scottish public knew the facts as presented by Mr. Jappy it could be worth tens of thousands of YES votes.

    One other point. The second oil boom is already under way. As I have said before my two sons work in the industry and know exactly the enormous potential involved. Also Lerwick Harbour is already being prepared for the massive reserves off Shetland and new harbour facilities are being planned for Cove Bay just south of Aberdeen in anticipation of the increased oil and gas traffic.

    The future is Scotland’s if we can only make the facts known to the public.

    Thanks to John Jappy and the Rev for this brilliant article.

  69. Ronnie says:

    @Jeannie.
     
    I can identify with you. Dad had MS. Mum worked till she was 74. (Cleaning a big hoose). Had to ask for a week’s holiday each year. Didn’t always suit ‘Madam’. I used to get so angry, but pride wouldn’t let her complain. She finally retired in 1989. Still going strong.
     
    But it shouldn’t have been this hard for her.
     
    There is a better way of treating our own.

  70. ScotFree1320 says:

    Maybe a Fish Ladder would help?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_ladder

  71. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Our anger should be directed against those Scottish politicians (ie all the unionist ones) who have been totally complicit in the lies told to the people who elected them to lookafter their interests. 

  72. Wee Jonny says:

    Every time I click onto Wings my eyes are opened that wee bit further. Excellent article and very hard not to get really pissed off at how Scotland’s been treated for years. Not for much longer.

    The secret of freedom lies in educating the people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant. 
    Not for much longer. 

  73. Chickenhawk 2 says:

    As I’ve said before, thank God, if your a believer, that the Rev and his abilities came along at just this time.
     
    Without this lodestar site, is that being a bit OTT Rev, sorry, well only a bit, this campaign would be much, much the poorer.

  74. Ken500 says:

    Quelle surpris. Contemptible

    Alex Salmond and the SNP are telling the truth.

    NNS had a similar article a while back.

  75. kininvie says:

    @roberto
    re: Clair
    Looks like a difficult & complex reservoir, though:
     
    http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9048768&contentId=7082730
     
    As I’m sure many of the O&G experts on this site are aware, discovering large amounts of oil and extracting commercial quantities of it are two entirely different things. But we should be grateful that some of our reserves are quite hard to get at – they would have been hoovered up long since, if not. And the technology improves, year on year.

  76. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Have just popped the question to BTG asking for their comments to the claims included on this link. It is important to get a fully balanced picture before making up one’s mind about this. I will also be writing to the MSM.

  77. bannock hussler says:

    Dammit, if only there were something in this story that BBCJockland could get its teeth into… I expect Brewer would just fall off his chair with boredom.

  78. Bertie K says:

    Okay, so there’s a lot of resources at stake which may or may not exist.
     
    Experts have been coming forward with projections on oil reserves recently which is very good news but it would be even better if these projections could be conclusively proven one way or t’other.
     
    Some say there are records of surveys on the west coast going back to the 80′s, which are not available to the public. this remains for me one of the great known unknows. Known to some but not to others. If records do indeed exist, what price? Someone, somewhere must know the figures..
     
     
    I understand now why the SG seem to have gone with a measured approach on oil in their white paper, adding that it would be a “bonus”. This makes a lot of sense.
     
    With recent news regarding renewables Scotland is set to meet it’s energy independence targets sooner rather than later. There’s an excellent piece on Newsnet and the P&J may have also run the story.
     
    I’m not surprised more hasn’t been reported in the MSM but there you have it. Energy security would be a huge confidence boost to everyone in these isles, including the rUK.
     
    With access to many so many resources in a diverse energy mix, Scotland would find itself with huge responsibilities, it’s influence would grow and along with it the confidence of it’s people.
     
    Scotland finally appears ready to meet those responsibilities, it wants to take it’s place in the world at long, long last.
     
    I say give it go, and not just some half-arsed go, they’ll need us to back them all the way, we’d be working for each other and I for one am well prepared to put my auld shoulder to the wheel for one last push.
     
     
     

  79. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Cronyism? Quote referring to Ian Taylor (he of major donations to BTG) from a Yorkshire based blogger, found in the link above:
    “I wonder if people would be so keen to buy into the “better together” propaganda campaign if they knew it was bankrolled by an English major donor to the Tory party with a financial interest in a company with licences to frack in Scotland.

  80. Ericmac says:

    I had almost forgotten this article….  which tells me that it should be circulated regularly. 
    The sad aspect of the piece is that it demonstrates that Scotland has been ‘too stupid’ for a lot longer than most of us have been alive. 

     
     

  81. Ericmac says:

    I will be printing this article off and posting it around 100+ neighbours after the 1st.  This is much better than a Christmas card in any case.  It will be my gift to them, enlightenment courtesy of Stu and Mr Jappy.
    My new year resolution will be to get more info out into the unenlightened and the disenfranchised.
     

  82. Ericmac says:

    @Bigheed

    Surely the gun to fire at every household is via email, FB and twitter

    and to the people that are disconnected from politics and the web…  if everyone of us sent a copy around 100 neighbours that would be a loud bang 

  83. creigs1707repeal says:

    Thanks for this, Mr Jappy. iScotland always was a ‘no-brainer’ but your excellent article here serves to affirm that view.

  84. Jingly Jangly says:

    Bertie K
    Oil companies guard their seismic and survey results very carefully, it is not something that’s in the public domain.
    I worked in the industry for over 30 years and remember the buzz about West Coast oil in the early 80′s. The potential is there but nothing in guaranteed until they do some appraisal drilling which is what BP were wanting to do off South Arran but were blocked by the MOD as the area is a nuke playground. Time will tell but we plenty still left in the North Sea and West of Shetland for starters.

  85. Bertie K says:

    Ericmac @10.39
     
    Consider it done.

  86. Jingly Jangly says:

    Have just read some of Mr Jappys blog, its EXPLOSIVE, we need to let the people know about the dangers of these nuclear subs and the Nuclear bomb dumps.
     

  87. Croompenstein says:

    I just keep hearing an echo….. it’s Richard Madeley – “but what have we done wrong ?”

  88. Bertie K says:

    JJ
     
    Thanks for filling in the gaps for me there, much appreciated.
     
     

  89. Barontorc says:

    THis excellent John Jappy piece was released some time ago and it’s clear it’s still shocking many new readers today.
     
    What people need to know is that suppression of the McCrone Report took place under the watch of Tony Benn who was the Minister for Energy, Willie Ross who was Sec of State for Scotland and Bruce Millan who followed him.
     
    All of these people, plus many others, knew exactly what they were doing by denying this information to the people of Scotland and the reality is that the present Labour/Lib Dem incumbents of the SoS Scotland Office (Carmichael and Curren) would do exactly the same to us. Things don’t change – faces do – but perfidious Albion’s lickspittle Scots will keep delivering the goodies.
     
    The forecasts for  65% to 75% YES is welcome and great news, but 51% will do as an essential must, or we’ll be shafted worse – for years to come. Keep getting the news out there. Get the YES vote in.

  90. Peter says:

    They could always add hydro turbines to the public water supply reservoirs.  Also discourage immigration, cut child benefits and end the brainwashing that an ever expanding population is a good thing.
    Best way of dealing with the energy problem is to have fewer people using less of it. 

  91. X_Sticks says:

    Ericmac says:
    “it demonstrates that Scotland has been ‘too stupid’ for a lot longer than most of us have been alive.”

    I don’t believe that is true Ericmac, rather that we have been deceived by those we trusted for a long, long time.

  92. Ericmac says:

    @X_sticks
    “it demonstrates that Scotland has been ‘too stupid’ for a lot longer than most of us have been alive.”
    I don’t believe that is true Ericmac, rather that we have been deceived by those we trusted for a long, long time.

    That’s one way of looking at it X_Sticks, but its not exactly a record that the Scottish can be proud of? :)  

     

  93. caz-m says:

    The Westminster government and the English establishment have exploited the Scots for over 300 years.

    The Highland clearances, were the English landowners replaced the Scots Clans with sheep, all because the sheep were worth more money at the cattle market.

    Also, Scots used as “cannon fodder” by the British Army. Hundreds of thousands killed in the First World War alone.

    And the Tories want to come up to Scotland next year to celebrate the centenary of the start of that very war.

    How disgusting is that. All those young Scots slaughtered when they were ordered to go “over the top”.

    Just a couple of examples of exploitation from over the centuries of being in this “Union”.

  94. X_Sticks says:

    Ericmac says:

    “its not exactly a record that the Scottish can be proud of”

    It’s certainly not a record that those who did the deceiving can be proud of.

  95. caz-m says:

    @Barontorc

    “51% will do”

    You’re aiming a bit high there, are you not?.

    50% plus 1 vote will do me.

  96. Thepnr says:

    “And the Tories want to come up to Scotland next year to celebrate the centenary of the start of that very war.”

    I believe this show of jingoistic patriotism will backfire big time for the Wasteminster government. Almost all of us here must have someone who is a relative or friend that served in the British forces?
     
    No, they do not zip up the back of the heed either. This so called celebration will be a massive flop, simply because there is NOTHING to celebrate. 

  97. Bill C says:

    @Chickenhawk 2 – Don’t believe in God but believe in his Rev!
    P.S. Is your moniker based on the novel on Vietnam war?

  98. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Scots Renewables at 11.06
    Exactly
    No control of the big levers – oil and gas revenues,corporation tax, Excise Duty, VAT and so on. Just an allowance to tax our people more heavily as they cut our block grant.
    FOR ARGYLL is no friend to YES

  99. call me dave says:

    National Collective site.
    No content seen!  Anything going on?
    I’ve been trying on this link.
    http://nationalcollective.com/

  100. Edward says:

    call me dave – same here get no content, someone should tell our arty chums, unless its some kind of minimalist art statement ;)

  101. A2 says:

    “Seven of us confirmed so far, but aiming to get 25 before asking about booking etc. If you want to express interest, please pop over to Quarantine –”
    um where’s that?

  102. TJenny says:

    A2 – you’ll find ‘Off-Topic (Quarantine) in the middle column of the page, just above the WoS logo above the Ghandi quote.

  103. tartanpigsy says:

    Well done getting this article out again, really important we don’t forget to repeat hammer the biggies such as this.
    Surprising how many folk on here were unaware of it’s running on NNS just last year,
    which makes me realise just how much we have to do to convince the public of the YES case.
     
    @Caz-m we aim at 65-70%, which is the result we’d all want,
     
    then if, at the end of the day we win with 50%+1……  we take it ;)

  104. twenty14 says:

    See A Carmichael is doing his cow impressions over in The Herald – Recurgitating the old Border Control stories – no doubt he also lies down when its raining
     

  105. john king says:

    Peter says
    “Also discourage immigration, cut child benefits and end the brainwashing that an ever expanding population is a good thing.
    Best way of dealing with the energy problem is to have fewer people using less of it. ”
    Your on the wrong site peter,
    discourage immigration?
    do you know Scotland with a population of 5.2 million is less than 9%  of the population of England at 56.1 million, 
    now in 1707 Scotland’s population totalled 1 million and England’s 5 million that’s a fifth smaller. now if we had grown at the normal rate for a small European country our population would have been 10 to 11 million, 
    now this idea of yours to keep immigrants out and share the heat round the fire with only us indigenous Scots is fine but who earns the wages to pay for our old age when we are a population who is growing older (as is England’s) have fewer people to create taxes to pay yours and my pension,
    as for cutting child benefits,  again for the same reason as immigration need not be a bad thing as long as its managed well, why do you want to reduce the population, take away child benefits and you discourage people from having children ,no next generation no tax payers ,no tax payers no pensions,
    the only thing in your post I see I can agree with (but I’m not sure you and I see it from the same standpoint) is “end the brainwashing” the brainwashing I see is the constant mood music from London which says Scotland is subsidized, 
    Lift your head up Peter and stop looking into the abyss and see the opportunities open to this country and understand,
    we are on the cusp of something great,
    and WE are privileged to be witness to it.   

  106. john king says:

    twenty14 says
    “See A Carmichael is doing his cow impressions over in The Herald – Recurgitating the old Border Control stories – no doubt he also lies down when its raining”
    Well he has to ruminate somewhere!
    see what I did there ?
    ah’ll get ma coat :(

  107. john king says:

    Dammit two carriage returns john two carriage returns now the rev’ll kick my ass d-oh.

  108. Finlay Jolliffe says:

    Interesting reading, especially from a reported ‘Inside’ source. We’ve known for decades that Scotland was being Milked but it’s the proof that demonstrates just how divisive the relationship with Westminister is. One thing that troubled me a little were some of the figures quoted. Something I’ve noted from the ‘Better together Campaign’ who love to shoot any informative discussion down on accuracy instead of making a coherent counter argument, demonstrating how we are better together. Given the above article it’s becoming clearer that they have no counter and shooting at the truth is all they have.
    For the record:
     
    “…and can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes – the whole of Glasgow…” As of 2012 Scottish Government quotes 301,513 occupied homes for Glasgow.
    “Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost all of Scotland” As of 2012 Scottish Government quotes 2.5(ish) million households.
    Source: http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/household-estimates/he-12/2012-estimates-households-dwellings-scotland.pdf

    Should deal with the loose bullets!

  109. Paul says:

    I don’t buy into this having to increase any countries population with immigration. When people are urged to come to Britain/Scotland to supposedly help pay for our pensions (is that not why we pay tax and national insurance for 40 years?) then what does the country do when they get old you just can’t keep bringing in ever more and more. Is technology and a different way of distributing the wealth from the means of production not the only way. An independent Scotland can’t just swap masters we need a new way of doing things or else what is the point.

  110. gordoz says:

    WTF is it with BBC Scotland News this morning; repetitive banging on about ‘Scottish  Labour’ (?) raising astonished sudden found awareness of food banks by FOI request from SG.
     
    Shock & Awe at this teamwork ? Who knew eh ??  Sounds like a story of panic to get Labours name on TV – no news whatsoever. Anyone else find this puzzling. Are they trying to suggest how SG are ruining our Christmas by make us and keeping us poor & hungry.
     
    I think you’ll find BBC that the ‘Labour Party in Scotland’ are complicit in this !! not the Scottish Government -
     
    Oh and could we have FOI re cost of Scottish affair committee and ofthe No Campaign Westminster reports ? Naw ?  didn’t think so !

  111. Fergie 35 says:

    Really interesting article, thank you John.

  112. Seasick Dave says:

    Best way of dealing with the energy problem is to have fewer people using less of it.
     
    Correct.
     
    Ideally, that number would be zero.
     
    Are you Peter Griffin, by any chance?

  113. gordoz says:

    @ Paul says  -
     
    Swap masters  ? - dont think that is whats proposed.

  114. gordoz says:

    O/T
     
    VG follow up piece by NNS on BBC manipulation of Scotland within EU
     
    http://newsnetscotland.com/

  115. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Michal Fry and Blackhall from Wealthy Nation on GMS few minutes ago. Giving reasonable take on why conservative votors should embrace the yes vote…

  116. gordoz says:

    O/T
     
    Outwith – Ian Davidson MP (Nasty piece of work), Ian Smart (Choob), Brian Wilson (complete git), John Reid (another complete git), George Robertson (yet another complete git) the krankies and other assorted right numpties; I will happily welcome anyone to cause of YES for Scotland as it is the right way to go.
     
    Surely commercial and business like expertise will be in much demand in a new successful,  aspirational, outward looking  Scotland.
     
    More power to them all. Scots Tories for Independent Scotland, whats wrong with that really ?

    Oh come all ye faithful ! – ( Who put Scotland  first !): and lets hope > joyful and Triumphant on Sept 19th 2014 !!

  117. Faous15 says:

    Call me an old cynic but some of this Tory supporting YES stuff has set of my wee conspiracy alarm!

  118. caz-m says:

    Labour MSP Jackie Baiilie reminding the world, via BBC Scotland that food banks are terrible. What she doesn’t tell the world is that under Labour Party policy, food banks will increase because they intend to come down even harder on people dependant on benefits.

    Also, on BBC Scotland, the EIS teachers union have had a brainwave. to give ALL P 1-3 kids free school meals. They say this will improve health and the child’s learning abilities.

    I emailed them and asked, since you have been in existence for 160 years, why have you suddenly came up with this life changing idea.

    Why didn’t you put this policy into place when Labour were in power in both London and Edinburgh.

    Will let you know of reply.

    EIS contact link :-

    enquiries [at] eis [dot] org [dot] uk

    Reminder- EIS Secretary Larry Flanagan loathes the SNP Scottish Government and equally any thoughts of Independence = friend of BBC Scotland.

  119. liz says:

    Possibly O/T but I usually shop in sainsburys as there is a small one nearby.
    The other day I was in the fruit and veg section and noticed that every veg box had a union jack on it, then went round to the trifles – union jacks on them as well – never seen that before.
     
    Saw 2 adverts on the TV yesterday for sainsburys – 1st one all Scottish, 2nd one Nrth Irish!
    Are they trying to convince us that we are all just one big happy family?
     
    Lord sainsbury, tory donor 1/4 million £ – now on my boycott list.

  120. alexicon says:

    caz-m says:
    23 December, 2013 at 9:07 am

    “Labour MSP Jackie Baiilie reminding the world, via BBC Scotland that food banks are terrible. What she doesn’t tell the world is that under Labour Party policy, food banks will increase because they intend to come down even harder on people dependant on benefits.”

    Under the Last Labour Government at Westminster food banks rose by 1,400% in number, so not only they “will increase” they have increased markedly.

  121. Kev says:

    setondene @ 8.23pm
    I was referring more to the initial pollution/noise impact etc on the local area/economy associated with the construction, and then in the long run the visual impact on the landscape, which compared to hundreds of wind turbines blanketing the hills, is minimal. As for the ecological impact, you are absolutely right, but it is a case of trade-offs, yes a dam will choke a river, but Scotland has thousands of rivers, and, in the case of Coire Glas I think its a small price to pay for having enough energy to power nearly half of Scotland’s homes, and to be able to do so at the flick of a switch.

  122. John H. says:

    @ john king 6.55am.
    Not only witness to it john but to be part of it. That’s the amazing thing.

  123. chalks says:

    The more you find out, the more depressed you get.

  124. David Smith says:

    The unpalatable truth of the matter is that the British state has been collectively pimping us for 300 years. This must end next year!

  125. Albert Herring says:

    If you give all the money to a handful of rich bastards who then spirit it out of the country without paying any tax, you may find you have trouble paying pensions.

  126. alexicon says:

    O/T.
     
    Labour’s Denis MacShane gets 6 months in the nick.

  127. gordoz says:

    O/T  (Just a bit of fun for Xmas)
     
    Found this site, when searching for something today -
    Check this coincidence out  (the words used are spooky) - if the Unionists are looking to rebrand or relaunch as on a recent thread – what about about a new name for their website ?
    https://github.com/

  128. john king says:

    Paul says
    “I don’t buy into this having to increase any countries population with immigration. When people are urged to come to Britain/Scotland to supposedly help pay for our pensions (is that not why we pay tax ”
     
     
    That would be fine Paul if a certain Mr Gordon Brown hadn’t emptied the pot marked pensions, so now we need the income from current tax payers to replace the money used by Gordon for other things maybe this will enlighten you
    http://tinyurl.com/kv27oez

  129. joe kane says:

    O/T Tom Harris MP,
    is on twitter sympathising with a criminal fraudster. Not to be confused with his sympathy for the sick and disabled, the unemployed and poorest in our society of which he has none -
    Thoughts are with my friend and former colleague @DenisMacShane on this awful day. A good man.
    https://twitter.com/TomHarrisMP/status/415069787652628480 

    WOS quoting Harris -
    “We were set up as the party to represent the values of working people, working being the key word. We weren’t set up as some sort of charity to help the poorest in society – the long-term unemployed, the benefit dependent, the drug addicted, the homeless.”
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/when-the-things-you-love-keep-changing/

  130. Rough Bounds. says:

    @Peter and @Paul.
     
    Agreed. There are far too many people on the planet already. Increasing Scotland’s population in order to finance future pension provision is a myth. All you would be doing is putting off the evil day till a full reckoning would have to be made. And it would by then be much worse and much more difficult to deal with.
    As regards the fact that Scotland’s population has fallen in relation to England’s over the last couple of centuries, that is a complete irrelevance. Scotland’s population isn’t too small. It’s England’s population that has grown far too big. You can’t swing a cat down there without hitting an immigrant.
    And of course England will need somewhere to put their overspill, so guess where that somewhere will be. Yes, correct: weary old Scotland that has become so daft and senile we believe any old baloney that is fed to us from down south.
    Tell me this. What is the point in gaining independence for Scotland if the people that will inhabit the country in the future will not be Scottish and won’t have a clue about Scottish culture or history.
    We don’t hear too much Pictish being spoken these days. That wouldn’t be anything to do with an immigrant population steamrollering their way into the land of the Picts would it?
     
    I now sit back with bated breath for the PC brigade to indulge in their usual florid faced indignant hyperbole.
     
    Nollaig Chridheil dhuibh uile.

  131. Jingly Jangly says:

    The Picts didn’t go anywhere. If anybody can give me a reasonable explanation why a race that was the only in Western Europe that held the Roman’s to bay, were suddenly swept away but a much smaller tribe of Celts I may accept their reasoning.
    BTW  the latest thinking on the Scots is that they were indigenous to Scotland and didn’t come over from Ireland at the time frame we have been told,  if they came over from Ireland it was as the ice was retreating.
     

  132. Juteman says:

    @Rough Bounds.
    You are swallowing the MSM scare stories.
    Nobody is advocating mass immigration. The SNP are proposing a Green Card system if they are elected. If you don’t like that, don’t vote SNP after iindependence.

  133. Xander says:

    @Kev,
    My understanding of pumped-storage hydro (PSH) is that it does not need a river. It only needs a large body of water from which water can be pumped to a nearby reservoir at a higher altitiude – the nearer the better. PSH is primarily an energy storage system rather than an energy production system, although there is an element of hydro production from the rainfall that is caught by the reservoir catchment area. This element of free energy can be offset against the cost of energy input lost to friction during the “pumping to altitude” phase.
     
    Imho PSH is an essential part of renewables as we need to be able to store excess energy during off-peak so it can be drawn upon during peak energy demand. We don’t need the wind to blow all the time with PSH as PSH can be used to smooth out the peaks and troughs of renewable energy production.
     
    http://www.spenergywholesale.com/userfiles/file/CruachanSiteComplete2011.pdf
     

  134. Robert Kerr says:

    @Xander
     
    Thanks for some sanity.
    My mathematics teaching friend, with an upper second I may add, couldn’t get his head round big numbers.
    Wittered on about battery technology getting better. Had to buy a round of ale!
    We are talking serious energy storage. megawatt-hours or even gigawatt-hours. 
    Sad state of education, energy v power and deficit v debt etc.
     
    Don’t get me started!
     
    Keep our eyes on the goal. Always! 

  135. Xander says:

    @Rough Bounds
     
    The UK state pension scheme is not a funded pension scheme, it is a PAYGO pension scheme. In other words this week’s NI contributions from workers pays next week’s state pension. As a former corporate and personal pension scheme administrator, I know that if there are not enough working people currently paying NI, then there will not be enough money to pay the pensions unless you either redirect funding from elsewhere or borrow money from the market to fund the shortfall. This is a FACT, not a myth.

  136. Ken500 says:

    The world population started from few people in Africa. Migration is the history of the world.

    Scotland has a 40million diaspora. A tradition of migration. US, Australia, Canada, NZ etc. Scotland has been depopulated by Westminster policies.

    In most industrialised democracies (Europe) the populations are falling (without immigration).

    Immigrants were invited into Britain to help the British economy and they came because of Westminster foreign policies. The British Empire interfering in other countries. Illegal foreign destabling wars etc.

    People were encouraged to come to Britain in the 50/60′s from the Commonwealth countries to
    work in the factories etc., to build up the economy.Many had duel passports. Immigrants still tend to settle in London S/E because that is where the jobs are – 4% unemployment.

    Scotland is half empty. It is only since Devolution the population has increased. Most countries now have restrictions on mass immigration, as Scotland would, but there is no need for UK border force in Scotland. The best way to counter mass migration is help other countries (EU) become better off.

  137. Ken500 says:

    Pensions are paid out of general taxation. There is no UK gov pension fund.

    Scotland pays for its own Pensiins and ‘benefits’. £17Billion a year. Out of the £60Billion revenues raised in Scotland. Scotland gets back £48Billion including £17Billion in Pensions/benefits. £12Billion goes to the UK Exchequer including £4Billion of loan repayments for monies Scotland didn’t borrow and spend. The UK deficit is being cut by £10Billion? Scotland’s share of debt repayment should only be £1Billion.

    The UK raises £600Billion in revenues and spends £700Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Billion more (pro rata) – £10Billion. Scotland would need to raise £60Billion, borrow (£10Billion) and spend £70Billion (pro rata), to be in the same position of the rest of the UK. Not £60Billion in/out.

    The UK pensions are the lowest in Europe. The UK gov spends £Billions on illegal wars/Trident and loses monies from tax evasion. The City of London is the tax evasion capital of the world.
    The Pension shortfall is a myth. Pensioners are taxed.

  138. Jingly Jangly says:

     re Pensions, we are in a unique position in that all of our current pensioners and those who will be pensioners for at least a decade after 2016 will have there pension paid by the Ruk Govt as they have already paid the minimum 35/40 years into the UK pension scheme.
    I have a copy of the letter from UK Pensions dept confirming this fact, its the same if you move to Spain or elsewhere , you are still entitled to your pension.
    Giving that we will have a generations worth of pension contributions built up we are in a position to have a properly funded pension pot which does not require day to day funding.
    The said letter is now on the YES Aberdeenshire page
    http://yesaberdeenshire.net/index.php/the-blog/562-a-xmas-letter-from-the-dwp-yes-you-will-get-your-pension-post-indy-r-collinson

  139. Jingly Jangly says:

    o/t Miliband in collusion with Condems to get us to pay for their campaigning!!!
    http://archive.is/ryutX
    This is obviously why he is not bothered about Union funding any more, a further drift to the right for Labour is on the cards….

  140. Jingly Jangly says:

    O/T Morag you seen this about Lockerbie? Presume this documentary was the one you were doing a couple of months ago?
    http://archive.is/pJ73P

  141. KOF says:

    @ Rough Bounds 12:18
     
    Well said.
     
    Give me the spade brigade any day.

  142. bald eagle says:

    john jappy thanks for the ammo

    speaking to a friend that thinks wastemonster are doing fine has just about had a heart attack 

    i printed out the above and watched as he read it about 5 times he is now on line checking all sites re-independance 

    i told him to try and find anything from any better together sites and if he found anything to debunk youre info i would pay for all the xmas presents he bought his family 

    that was this morning i met his wife about hour ago and she said he was going of his head and phoned his bank to cancel his labour party fees
    hes not one for the internet but i think he will be intouch with this site and others i know he will be asking a lot of questions as he cant belive the numbers and why didnt i tell him before   he!s a hard man to talk too so be patient if he gets intouch 
     
    my partners sister stuffs envelopes for pin money and asked if i could help as she gets paid per hundred so if its ok with you could i accidently staple as many as i can to these envelopes  oops to late stuck now

  143. Dave says:

    Fantastic article. Great facts clearly laid out & very well presented.

    As a proud Englishman this supports further the argument for Scottish independence. As long as all financial ties are severed, i.e. Scotland receives zero funding from Westminster & England receives zero funding from any revenues generated north of the border, then both nations will be contented & will have a viable economic & social future.

    As I have advocated for over 20years now, in my opinion, the referendum should not only be addressed to the Scottish population. Give all of the UK a say & independence will  unequivocally be the end result.

    However, it has to be total independence.

    Once Scotland is independent, it no longer has any rights to any southern revenue & vice versa. This is the only way it can possibly be fair. Anything less than that will simply result in more turmoil & dischord for the foreseeable future.

  144. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Once Scotland is independent, it no longer has any rights to any southern revenue & vice versa.”

    Yes, of course. How else could it be?

  145. Bill McLean says:

    Dave – what do you think Independence means? However when the UK breaks up and Scotland pays it’s share of UK national debt we will be entitled to our share of national assets!
    I’m sure you will agree that is fair! 
     

  146. Caroline Corfield says:

    it’s my understanding the Picts were an earlier wave of Celtic migrants. At the end of the Ice Age the islands of Great Britain were devoid of human populations, we are all immigrants to them. Culture is alive, new immigrants bring new culture, it all gets mixed up and the Scottish culture is enriched and grows. That’s perhaps why no one keeps their claymore in the thatch anymore for a start. Scotland needs to be a modern vibrant country and doesn’t need to become a theme park like so much of the rest of these islands are turning into. I’m all for industrial heritage and the likes but I’d also like to see some real industry too. And culture is taught, by your parents, by your peers and by the state: I’d like to see a timeline approach taken to history, rather than this piecemeal affair that happens now, dotting between medieval and recent, romans and slave trade, how can you get a feel for your country’s place in the world without a rough understanding of all the forces that played a part in creating where it is now?

  147. Gray says:

    Dave – how do you think England’s economy will fare once Scotland isn’t there to prop it up any more?
     
    When do you plan to move north of the border? ;)

  148. Peter Meikle says:

    An interesting article.  But may I just point out that, according
    to SSE,
     
    http://www.sse.com/Glendoe/Information/
     
    the Glendoe site
    has capacity to power 53,000 homes. Based on a household
    consumption of 3,300 kWh a year.  This is a lot less than the
    total number of households in Glasgow.  So the assertion that
    Glendoe by itself can produce enough electricity for the whole of
    Glasgow does not appear to be correct.

  149. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Dave, it seems you are missing out on the central argument to this thread or do you have another point to make? I believe the general understanding here is that Scotland more than holds its own. The big question is perhaps, does r UK also?

  150. Paula Rose says:

    @ bald eagle
    That comic imagery made my day!

  151. Clydebuilt says:

    How do you get this article out to the public when the MSM won’t cover it
    .
    Email it to your contacts (aks them to pass it on)
    Print it off distribute it at YES stalls, neighbours letterboxes

  152. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Rev,
     
    I know you’re ultra-busy etc, but a wee request -
     
    For 2014, any chance of starting a new Quarantine thread? It would be nice to have one that doesn’t open with the gibberings of you-know-who, and it’s so big now that it takes quite a long time for it to load, process new comments etc.
     
    Don’t know about anyone else, but Quarantine doesn’t now feel like a place of punishment – it’s got its own wee vibe going, and with next year being so important it would be nice to open a new chapter which will surely be chockablock with good positive stuff.

  153. Ken says:

    Thank you John. Your name is the first I give people who have any doubts about Scotland’s capabilities. I have copied and distributed amongst friends the article you wrote about your experiences. It has opened a lot eyes I would otherwise have been unable to. 

  154. Dave says:

    Thanks for the responses to my comments everyone. This is a great forum with some really intelligent posts which I’ve enjoyed reading.

    In response to your comment Ian, I completely understand the argument that says the Scottish economy will stand up on its own two feet should independence become a reality in the near future. My point is that independence needs to be exactly that. As per the stats in the original article, an independent Scotland can generate more than enough revenue to survive & indeed thrive in the world economy. Therefore, once independence is assured then all revenue stays in it’s nation of origin. A point which I think we seem to all agree on from the above.

    My concern, and I suppose the essential point of my comment, is that this won’t happen any time soon. If I take all if the facts in the above article to be true, then there is no way Westminster will simply cut off ties with a revenue generator that it can scarcely afford to lose in the current climate. If the facts are somewhat exaggerated, or I’m reading them incorerectly, then I have a concern that Scotland will receive revenue from Westminster to support it’s new, independent status.

    Whichever of the above points of view you consider to be true, I have a concern that ‘independence’, in the guise that it is currently being voted for, is nothing more than the next step in devolution. True independence is not what is at stake in 2014 as there is too much inherent risk to both parties from true separation.

    i think we need to view this referendum in the context of evolution rather than revolution. Scotland is voting to take the natural next steps towards a  becoming a fledgling independent nation at some point in the future, but by no means will this referendum turn Scotland Ito a truly independent country in the short term.

  155. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “For 2014, any chance of starting a new Quarantine thread?”

    I’ll see what I can do.

  156. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rev -
     
    Hopefully, this won’t be ‘embedded’:
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjbaHlTl86Q

  157. Craig says:

    Dave, you seem to be completely confused about the issue.

    Scotland will vote for independence in September 2014.

    Between September 2014 and March 2016, negotiations will take place between Scotland and Westminster as to the division of assets and liabilities of the soon to be defunct UK.

    In March 2016, the UK will be defunct and Scotland and rUK will be independent nations.

    There are about 200 independent nations in the world. Independent nations don’t share each other’s income and expenses.

    From March 2016, every penny of Scottish income will come to the Scottish treasury and a democratically elected Scottish government will decide how to spend it. The same will apply to rUK income.

    What makes you think that independent Scotland “will receive revenue from Westminster to support it’s new, independent status”? That is complete nonsense. Has that been fed to you by No Scotland?

  158. john king says:

    Your talking to a concern troll Craig,
    leave it be. 

  159. Ken500 says:

    The happiest countries are Demark, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland. They pay higher taxes, work shorter hours, have lower unemployment and have higher incomes. They have comprehensive NHS/Education and social benefits. The most vulnerable, the old, the sick and the young are looked after and there is more equality.

  160. Ken500 says:

    # Denmark.

    The happiest countries are also the smallest.

  161. Smudge Smith says:

    “Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost all of Scotland.”

    There are over 2 million homes in Scotland; why be misleading?  It weakens your argument and calls in to question the veracity of your other points.

  162. Dave says:

    John – I’m honestly not trolling but fair enough. Best of luck to everyone, whatever your opinion, in the referendum & here’s hoping that the result works out well for all countries in the current UK, however it ends up segregated in the future.
    Merry Christmas everyone!

  163. john king says:

    Dave 
    how you can say a vote for independence is not a vote for independence and we’ll somehow be tied to Westminster after said vote is to anyone’s thinking bizarre to say the least, after a yes vote we are an independent country looking for nothing and offering nothing but friendship, end of. ha ha just saw the word segregated there, no more segregated than we are from our other friends in Europe .
    If I miscalled you I’ m sorry but your idea of what this vote is about is a little strange, but in the spirit of the season best wishes and merry christmas. 

  164. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    There are over 2 million homes in Scotland; why be misleading?”

    I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.

  165. fluffnik says:

    Wee problem. 
    Got pulled up by a Unionist on the Glen Doe supplying 100k, Sheffield only claim 53k.
    http://www.sse.com/Glendoe/Information/
    Help! 
     
    … Oh, and a Cool Yule to you all!  :) 

  166. A2 says:

    I’m struggling with the energy sums a bit, can we have some citations? like where did “exports 24%” come from exactly?

    National records of Scotland puts the number of households in Glasgow at 285,984 in 2012 so the given figure is nearly 20% off (270,000 as far back as 1991) so the easiest figure to look up was in fact incorrect, Stu’s already had to change the number of homes in Scotland, let’s not give BT an open goal by not applying the same scrutiny to our own claims as we would to BT’s.

    yours.
    Ebineezer
     

  167. A2 says:

    Just to be clear
    What I’m trying to point out is that the Energy argument is compelling as it is, let’s not compromise it by borrowing Alistair Darling’s calculator.
     

  168. Craig says:

    John, let us give Dave the benefit of doubt as to his intentions here.

    I hope he will accept that his view that independent Scotland “will receive revenue from Westminster to support it’s new, independent status” is completely wrong.

    Given the lies and propaganda by No Scotland led by the BBC, it is not surprising that some people might actually be believing such nonsense.

  169. Siscar says:

    But this is all just factually wrong.
    Gelndoe can’t support 240,000 homes, it’s 53,000 according to the people who run it.  There aren’t projects that will take it to 1,000,000.  William Waldegrave didn’t say what this attributes to him, check Hansard if you don’t believe me.
    its just made up nonsense.

  170. Smudge Smith says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    24 December, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    “There are over 2 million homes in Scotland; why be misleading?”
    I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.
     
    On the morning of 24 Dec 13, the above article stated:“Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost all of Scotland.” (Copied and pasted from the original article).

    By the morning of 25 Dec 13, the article read: “
    Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost half of Scotland.”

     
    So what did I mean? That the original article was wrong and misleading.  There are in excess of 2.3 million homes in Scotland, to say that further projects on the loch will provide energy for “almost of all of Scotland” is in no way true.  It is misleading to say such a thing.
    Either the article intentionally sought to exaggerate our renewable energy by making up compelling figures to help the argument, or no true diligence and research was undertaken on the number of households in Scotland.  Whichever it was, it casts a shadow over a report which relies heavily on numbers and leads to questions about the accuracy and truthfulness of the other figures quoted. 
    If we’re going to make an argument for independence, then why confuse it with half-truths?  Let us at least by accurate. 
    If you still “have no idea what I’m taking about” then perhaps speak to whomever thought it necessary to alter the article from what it stated yesterday morning – they seemed to understand. 
     
     

  171. A2 says:

    hmm so the answers are probably in “DUKES” somewhere , consumption by “Sub national area” was easy to find but production is a bit trickier and I don’t have time to wade through it this year , anyone done this already?

  172. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ““There are over 2 million homes in Scotland; why be misleading?”
    I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.

    On the morning of 24 Dec 13, the above article stated:“Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost all of Scotland.” (Copied and pasted from the original article).

    By the morning of 25 Dec 13, the article read: “Further projects down the Loch are planned to eventually increase this to over 1,000,000 homes – enough for almost half of Scotland.””

    Sorry. You’re clearly not familiar with our long-running “correction” joke, which satirises the Scottish media’s habit of changing articles without acknowledgement. Generally speaking, ANYTHING WRITTEN ALL IN CAPITALS is a joke.

  173. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Gelndoe can’t support 240,000 homes, it’s 53,000 according to the people who run it.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8124750.stm

    “A £140m scheme to produce enough electricity to power every home in Glasgow, using nothing but the power of water, is being opened by the Queen.”

    “William Waldegrave didn’t say what this attributes to him, check Hansard if you don’t believe me.”

    Um, we linked directly to the Hansard pages in question so people can see for themselves what was said.

  174. Smudge Smith says:

    I’m not familiar with “correction” joke… as may well be clear by my response and I’ll happily take that one on the chin. 

    No matter, changing the article (whether satirical or not) isn’t really a response to my assertion that either the (original) article intentionally sought to exaggerate our renewable energy by making up compelling figures to help the argument, or no true diligence and research was undertaken on the number of households in Scotland.

    But there we go. 

  175. S. Goode says:

    My brother was put in a home by NHS in Edinburgh because he needed continuing care and couldn’l live on his own and after paying into the system for about 80 years to ensure in old age he could be looked after the system conned us into paying nearly all his pension towards care which,in my opinion and according to the rules of continuing care. Now when I found out about these NHS rules, which they should have informed me about, the pass the buck from one to the other saying it ,s the local councils responsibility. even though the 80years contributions were paid to national insurance. Surely this cannot be right. Why is iit this unfair British system is still tolerated for all these years.

  176. mia C says:

    Talk about being treated like a mushroom, kept in the dark & fed a lot of bullshit

  177. Jean Brodie says:

    There are only about 5 million people in Scotland and over 56 million people in England. Scotland is self-sufficient while England needs to import everything to feed its masses. I wonder if they still dictate to Scotland how much they’ll pay for our beef. I remember a time when if someone in England bought a dog license, the money stayed within that county’s coffers, but if someone in Scotland bought a dog license, that money was transported straight to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for England’s benefit! I remember all this from many years ago—so many injustices.

    I was just looking at the Lion Rampant of Scotland and hope with all my heart that 2014 is Scotland’s time to ROAR!!!



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