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Wings Over Scotland

One story, two spins

Posted on June 27, 2018 by

Part 1: the story.

This year’s Scottish Social Attitudes Survey has found, yet again, that Scottish people trust their government in Holyrood vastly more than they trust the one in Westminster. The figures transcend party loyalties, with far more people saying they trust the Scottish Government than vote for the SNP.

Trust in both governments was down by five points, which meant the Scottish Government had lost 7.6% of its trust (66 down to 61) while the UK government had lost 20% of its trust (25 down to 20).

Now let’s see how two newspapers owned by the same company reported the news.

Those two tweets pretty much speak for themselves. But the context of the Herald’s is interesting. It appears to attribute the Scottish Government’s decline to problems in the NHS. Yet the survey’s respondents were pretty clear who they blamed for any perceived failings in that field.

By a margin of close to 2:1, those voters who thought the NHS in Scotland had gotten worse (which was just under half of them) held the UK government, which ultimately controls Scotland’s budget, responsible for it.

And that was something of a recurring theme. Because time and again, and by very large margins, voters credited the Scottish Government with outcomes they liked, and blamed the UK government for things that had worsened.

And by nearly FIVE to one, Scots wanted the Scottish Government, rather than the UK government, to have more influence over the running of Scotland:

All of which raises a couple of questions:

(1) Why is the Herald choosing to focus on a smaller loss of trust in Holyrood than in Westminster, especially when the thing it cites as the reason for the loss of trust is blamed by voters on the UK government rather than the Scottish one?

(2) If the Scottish people trust Holyrood far more than Westminster, and think Holyrood is generally making things better for Scotland while Westminster is making them worse, then why the heck do most of them still want Westminster governments they don’t elect to rule them instead of Scottish ones they DO elect?

When we get to the bottom of that, we’ll let you know.

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  1. 27 06 18 12:56

    One story, two spins | speymouth

77 to “One story, two spins”

  1. Giving Goose says:

    To answer your first question, I have several theories-

    1) Someone within the Herald hierarchy is after a knighthood.

    2) Someone within the Herald hierarchy hates Scotland.

    3) Someone within the Herald hierarchy is simply a liar.

    All three theories are connected.

  2. Craig P says:

    It’s in case they bomb our airports Rev, as postulated by a peer of the realm back in 2014.

    Once the love bombing is over, only fear is left.

  3. fillofficer says:

    the more they spin & lie
    the more readers they lose
    the more irrelevant they become
    & less able to influence indy2
    fekkin eejits
    bring it on

  4. Proud Cybernat says:

    And by nearly FIVE to one, Scots wanted the Scottish Government, rather than the UK government, to have more influence over the running of Scotland…”

    Aye, but just don’t call it ‘independence’.

  5. Johnny says:

    I guess (on the last point) that a sizeable portion of the 74% want more devolution but haven’t worked out yet that they are not getting any.

    And some of the others are just illogical and can’t see how to get the thing they say they want.

  6. Dr Jim says:

    The Herald will soon just be printing

    *You voted NO in 2014 Ha ha ha*

  7. Derek Rogers says:

    Wings: Why do most of them still want Westminster governments they don’t elect to rule them instead of Scottish ones they DO elect?

    Because leaving the UK is like casting yourself adrift on a sea of uncertainty, surrounded by whirlpools, giant waves, demons and monsters; the UK may swamp you rotten, but at least it’ll keep you alive. – At any rate, I think that’s why many No-ers are still No. We need to keep on telling them we can do it, starting with the Growth Commission, and other similar countries.

  8. auld highlander says:

    Trust a westminster government??

    No way.


  9. Doug Bryce says:

    Scotland has 2 governments

    1) A Westminster one who we didn’t elect.
    2) A Holyrood one who we did elect to mitigate the damage of the UK government.

    Devolution is fundamentally a con. It allows the Tories to impose austerity on UK and then blame the SNP for having less to spend on the NHS / Education / Transport etc.

  10. Kevin says:

    Why can’t the National do tomorrow what you just did today?

  11. Les Wilson says:

    No matter what, we cannot trust anything a Westminster government of any hue, says about Scotland. ( I will include all of the media in this, except of course the National.)

    They lie, the manipulate, they use every tool they have, to do Scotland down. They steal whatever asset the want to.
    This is of course not new, been going on since the act of “Union” was enforced. I say again, never, never ever trust a Westminster government of whatever party.

    They are only interested in what they can get out of us. In this digital age, they cannot get away with it so much and we can all see, what their intentions for Scotland are.

  12. Andy-B says:

    I’d imagine the Herald is pandering to their unionist readers. They know the truth fine well, but sales figures matter more.

  13. Sinky says:

    O/T A secretive trust without a fixed address or known current trustees that gave £319,000 to the Scottish Conservatives is under examination by the Electoral Commission.

    Electoral Commission data shows that the Scottish Unionist Association Trust (SUAT) gave £318,876.66 to the Tories between 9 April 2001 and 28 February 2018.

    See more here and spread the word

  14. Welsh Sion says:

    Still in embryonic form, and am working on it.

    Feel free to adapt/change/improve/use/share/sing.


    21. (of 21.)

    Hark! the Herald journos spin

    Hark! the Herald journos spin, 
    “Let our new-born stories ring! 
    Lies we write for all our readers, 
    Yoon HQ – our loyal feeders.” 
    Joyful, let us spout our lies, 
    “Nats are bad!”, (that’s no surprise). 
    Let’s proclaim with fellow yoonies, 
    “SNP – a bunch of loonies.” 
    Hark! the Herald journos spin: 
    “Let our new-born stories ring!”


    [With acknowledgements]

    Songs for the New Politics

  15. Brian Powell says:

    One thing is absolutely certain, we don’t trust the Herald.

  16. gus1940 says:


    I have just received the latest Private Eye.

    On p9 under HP Sauce there is their latest SNP Bad piece which should be a gift to Rev Stu for a total demolition job.

    Whoever feeds them with their Scottish News is so biased and uninformed that it could almost be Tom Gordon.

    As an Eye subscriber for decades I have always considered that Ian Hyslop believed in printing the truth.

    It is high time that he started questioning the lies fed to him re Scotland and its politics.

  17. bobajock says:

    I think of the Nazi propoganda when I see this kind of stuff from our ‘free’ press.

    Gongs’a’gogo – nice to have the shiny round your neck with a bow to the hyperrich.

  18. Welsh Sion says:

    Off topic – but in a vivid demonstration of Red Tory/Blue Tory alliance in my home country. See middle paragraph. (And yes, nothing new here for Scotland, I know – but that just proves my point …)

    Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns is to face an unprecedented vote of no-confidence in the Nation Assembly later on today.

    But the motion against the Conservative UK minister is unlikely to pass as it does not have the support of Labour Welsh ministers in Cardiff.

    Plaid Cymru tabled the motion after the UK Government failed to support plans for the Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon.

  19. Capella says:

    Anything to do with Captain Haggerty spinning an SNP Bad story? I looked up the editor of the Herald but can’t figure out who is the current editor.

    The editor of The National is a very bright young man who is keen to meet the readers. I’ve been to one of the roadshows with Calum Baird and Paul Kavanagh. It was an interesting and enjoyable evening. Do take the opportunity if you can.

  20. Capella says:

    About the “Why Do Scottish People Vote for the Union” question.

    They don’t. It’s only been proposed once and then under complete media brainwashing, lies and disiformation to vote NO.

    In 1979 the majority of Scots voted for Devolution. They were cheated by the 40% rule and the fact that the dead, peple wjo abstained and the two-home-students all counted as NOs.

    In 1997 we voted YES to Devoluton and YES to ttac raising popwers. Still waiting for delivery.

    I think the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey shows that Scots do not want to be ruled from Westminster.

  21. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    gus1940 at 11.41
    I cancelled my Private Eye (which I had purchased since its first edition) two years ago. It has become and in-house tory jousting vehicle.
    I wrote several times to it about its complacent establishment anti Scottish agenda which I suggested was hardly appropriate for what was parading as an anti establishment publication but tono apparent effect.

  22. Capella says:

    Sorry about the typos. Think it is still legible.

  23. Mike says:

    The answer is simple. Media perception. People perceive what the media tell them to perceive.
    Scotland has so many negative sources of media relative to most other countries if not ALL other countries in the world that negative perception is inevitable.
    If Scotland had a main steam media that was impartial we would have been Independent since the 70s.
    Those of us who take the time and effort to see through the media perception see the reality MOST people in Scotland choose to ignore.
    Hardcore don’t care about the consequences pro union support in Scotland is never more than 20 to 25% at best the rest of us are either pro Indy or don’t care enough to lift our faces out of our daily routines. The lets not rock the boat or take chances on something new group think are happy to take MSM at face value if it tells them not to rock the boat or take chances on something new and unknown.
    Which also explains the distinct age factor in the split.
    We are a single generation away from having a pro Indy support in the 60% margins media or no.

  24. paul says:

    Dave McEwan Hill
    When I started reading the eye it was notorious for a distaste for jewish people and male homosexuals (I don’t think the then editor could even contemplate female ones).
    These days its now firmly russo/islamo/scottophobic.
    There’s still interesting stuff, but a pair of tongs is required for reading.

  25. Henry Gough-Cooper says:

    Very interesting. Everything, except independence. I wonder if it’s not so much a government thing, as a basic desire not to be sundered from our neighbours (and, often, relatives) to the south. How bad it has to get before that cuts no ice, I have no idea.

  26. jfngw says:

    I think we may need to start ranking Herald stories with the Jillometer (or is it Gillometer), from 0% proof to 100% proof (the full Jill).

  27. gus1940 says:

    Now that our evil WM masters have axed the Swansea Bay Lagoon Project (Surprise Surprise) let’s have a Tidal Barage at the mouth of one our many sea lochs.

    Surely the construction of such a barrage would be much cheaper than the enormous loop of the Swansea one given water depth being not too great and a comparable tidal rise and fall.

  28. Breeks says:

    Sinky says:
    27 June, 2018 at 11:33 am
    “….under examination by the Electoral Commission.”

    I’d have more faith if it was Zippy and George from Rainbow doing the “examination”.

  29. Double your security, Stu.
    This is a wonderful piece of ‘journalism’. Facts checked and verified, unlike the hacks in the Dead Tree Scrolls.
    We’re on the Road to freedom now. Nothing is going to stop us.
    I seriously wonder what job satisfaction the Brit Nat Dead Tree Scrollers get out of writing cut and paste crap all the time.
    Tomorrow Rennie will scream about mental health, Davidson will moan about not having private companies taking over our education system, and that Dick, Leonard will stutter and stumble his way through the latest FOI shit his backroom boys offer him.
    They’re all off on their summer holidays soon. They’ll still get heir £1200 a week holiday pay, while kids starve because of an English parliament, propped up by these ProudScotsBut, rob the poor and reward Alistair Darling and JK Rowling.
    Not long now.

  30. Dr Jim says:

    If the people who voted NO in 2014 had realised what was coming I’d put money on half of them not doing it

    The two choices now are Brexit, certain friendless lonely doom with the promise of nothing, or Independence in Europe with lots of pals

    It shouldn’t really be up for question at all should it

  31. Ottomanboi says:

    The National/Herald polarity is a manifestation of the so-called Caledonian antisyzygy, the supposed Scottish split personality whose conflicting sides may be given to fighting like a pair of wild cats in a bag.
    Before Unionism any schizoid and fractious tendencies were kept in check by a sense of national ‘purpose’and ‘worth’. A return to that sense of collective esteem and aspiration, that Unionist ideology has sought to neutralise with bogus notions of a supra-nationality represented by a myth laden concept of British identity and British nationhood, pace Gordon Brown inter alia, would see the Herald tendency stripped of its nefarious and duplicitous, divide and conquer ‘purpose’.

  32. msean says:

    Surprised there is still 15% that think that the uk government should have more influence in running Scotland. Where do they get their news,I wonder? 🙂

  33. resquierdo says:

    The Heralds reporters ring piece must be nipping with the amount of excrement that is passing through their waste expulsion pipe

  34. Luigi says:

    Mike says:

    27 June, 2018 at 12:03 pm

    The answer is simple. Media perception. People perceive what the media tell them to perceive.

    Partly correct, but not absolutely. Some people you can fool all the time, for sure, but IMO the majority of folk are not so daft. People basically tend to be risk averse, and as long as things are (relatively) stable, they are willing to turn a blind eye to all the blatant corruption and political crap on show. Why rock the boat when things could be a lot worse? The media just gives them an excuse to indulge the elites and pretend things ain’t so bad after all. Works – for a while.

    IMO the most powerful message put out out by Better Together in 2014 was:

    “If you are not sure, just vote NO”.

    Clever stuff (won’t work next time). The media did not persuade anyone to vote NO in 2014, but it did give people a big excuse to delude themselves that voting NO was a sensible, respectable thing to to. Next time, the majority will be looking for an excuse to vote YES. We must provide it

    There is a recognised tipping point, which occurs when people decide they have had enough. This almost occurred during the Scottish indy ref in 2014, and certainly occurred in England with the Brexit vote.

    As the saying goes:

    “All societies (no matter how strong and stable) are only three meals away from revolution.” (Anon.).

    The elites know this, hence the blind panic on show when things begin to unsettle ever so slightly. They enjoy the high life on a shoogly peg, and they know it.

    There is an unwritten, uneasy contract between the elites and the rest of us. We indulge the unfairness of it all, we tolerate their corruption – as long as we feel secure in our own positions. When people feel they have nothing to lose, things start to get get interesting. 🙂

  35. Alastair says:

    I stopped buying Private Eye around the referendum time after subscribing for 20 years. I was astonished at the anti-Scottish sentiment in an increasing number of its articles and editorial pieces. For all its so called anti-establishment history, the editor is as much a product of Great British Nationalism as the Tory party.

  36. harry mcaye says:

    I’m still put off The National by their Old Firm obsession on the back page. I know, I know, it’s only football but it really annoys me. Monday’s back page wasn’t the World Cup, or Scotland’s rugby team’s big win but Rangers no further forward in signing a Roma reserve. I think they are seriously misjudging their demographic.

  37. Artyhetty says:

    It’s the classic tactic of brainwashing, and also they know it only has so much of an effect in Scotland, but anyone reading the Herald elsewhere, those who believe it, will think that Scotland is not being served well by their own government.

    We know that the opposite is true, that Scotland’s government chosen by the people, is serving Scotland so much better than any unionist led one did. But how many countries around the planet have had their democratically elected governments taken down by outside forces, with the media being instrumental in it, so that resources can be plundered from those countries.

    It doesn’t matter that the opposite is true to what the unionist daily rags and bbc are saying, it’s deliberate.

    Read a short piece on RTnews yesterday about conflicts in Africa, actually being aided and abetted, basically kept going so that western countries can continue to plunder for resources.
    What a disgrace.

    Also been reading an old a ‘bbc education scotland’ (!) book, schools level stuff, 1996, ‘The Union of 1707’. I have to say it is in a very simplistic way pretty good, and reveals the utter lies and corruption used to even secure Scotland as England’s whipping boy way back in 1707. Some details I didn’t know about.

    In fact reading it, anyone could be forgiven for thinking we were right back in the 1700’s right now! Almost a mirror image happening. Scary.

  38. Capella says:

    @ msean – that 15% will be the dyed in the wool Tory vote. They consistently scored 15% up until the Labour and Liberal Unionists switched to Tory to oust Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson.

    The Tories in Scotland are quite happy with the Union becasue then they get the Government they want in spite of the fact that the majority of Scots do not vote Tory.

    Democratic deficit.

  39. Shug says:

    The herald approach would suggest to me that control of the message is from the scotland office rather than the herald. I think the herald would have been smarter

  40. Fergus Green says:

    Why buy Private Eye when you have Wings over Scotland?

    Why give your money to Hyslop, a public schoolboy Oxbridge product who likes to pretend he is an ‘enfant terrible’ while he is really as much a pillar of the establishment as the characters he exposes?

    If I wanted to pay for anti-Scottish propaganda, I would buy a TV licence.

  41. Clootie says:


    The two points you make at the end

    Point one is easy….it is the Herald. Their motto “Propaganda over truth”
    Point two….fearties mostly due to the propaganda of the MSM that a host of plagues awaits us if you step over the divide between devolution and Independence.

    This is an example of Leask’s factual reporting. The narrow selected facts in the article are true in isolation. He considers this journalism. It appears journalism is defined by verifiable facts and not balance nor giving an accurate picture of the situation.

    The Herald does not lie. It reports selected facts…oops it does lie…but it says sorry 6 months later on a postage stamp.

  42. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Artyhetty @ 13:23,

    If yopu think that Putin’s mafia state propaganda arm RT is any more believable than our own cuddly Glasgow Herald, you haven’t reached the highest level of enlightenment yet.

    Russia is up there with the rest of the major gun-runners, so stuff their special pleading. The AK-47 is the world’s long-time favourite assault rifle. Guess where they’re made…?

  43. Dr Jim says:

    Here’s one just in from the BBC

    *Scotland *could* experience a fishing boom doubling the fishing fleet similar to Iceland post Brexit with 95% of all fish caught by Scottish fishermen* says some think tank in England with the name Marine in its title

    Are you believers? Nah thought not

    Critics say *that’s pish*

  44. ED says:

    I’m a very rare poster on this or any forum, but something happened to me last night that is a precise reflection of why we have lost trust in the UK government.

    Arriving home from Greece (an EU country of which we too are still a member – I think) at 2am this morning, several plane loads were forced to queue for over 40 minutes after deplaning, just to get through UK passport control.
    Glasgow International Airport has just 5 (yes, five) electronic passport gates that allow you back into your own country. They were slow to operate and did little to assist the fully staffed Border Control gates that were also opened. I think one of the 5 might have been broken.
    Now Glasgow airport might be a little at fault for allowing too many aircraft to land within an hour or so of each other, but I have never had to wait in a 60 yard long queue to get in to ANY country before, not even USA.

    Now the crux of this is that when I complained to airport staff, I was told that the UK Government Home Office have simply refused to pay for more electronic gates.
    Think about that. 10 months away from the biggest shake up on border control in our history, and we are currently failing at it, due to lack of investment from the UK Government.
    For ever 2 mins delay of an HGV at Dover, business tell us, a 26 mile queue will be created on the feeder roads. Well, when the UK Government makes its own citizens transporting nothing more than some holiday luggage wait 20 times that long, when Brexit bites, be prepared for food shortages, fuel shortages, rationing and your employer going to the wall as they can’t get supplies here on time to keep you in a job or feed your family.
    It never used to be this bad until these charlatans that call themselves the UK Government took charge.
    Things look as if they are gonna get very bad. Stock up folks.
    And vote for the Scottish Government to take complete control of everything as soon as we can. Independence truly is the ONLY option now.

  45. Dan Huil says:

    Glad I don’t buy the Herald or any other Britnat rag. They are liars.

    As opinion polls have shown the older a person in Scotland is the more likely they are to believe britnat scare stories and the more likely they are to meekly accept Westminster’s BS.

    [I know there are many older folk who are Yes and read sites like Wings. I wish there wis mair like them.]

    Holyrood has to send very strong reassuring messages to the elderly pre-indyref2, especially about pensions.

  46. Meindevon says:

    Re the Independence ref question, I’ve said since the last ref maybe the question is wrong.

    The word independence gives those that want out of the Eu the opportunity to say well you can’t be independent and be ‘governed by Brussels ‘. (Not my feeling by the way.)

    Also the Brexiteers are already claiming independence so those not so educated in the way of Westminster shenanigans might feel we are there already.

    Ask Scots something to make their chests puff out a wee bit. Ask them ‘Do you think Scotland should be a normal self governing nation?’ And reiterate to those not keen on the EU they could then have their own ref on that. How could they say No?

  47. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Bertie Armstrong (BritNat Ulster ‘OO?’) giving it “No Surrender to EU fishing boats” I see:

    Wonder if he’s checked with Wee Mikey ‘fash face’ Gove, who has already said The UK is too wee to handle this level of catch (although he has back pedalled already on what “taking back control” means for the fishing industry.

    So that’s Farming last week and fishing this week getting a wee “we will give you special status, protect your industry/subsidies/quotas”.

    Anyone would think that there’s some anti Brexit and/or Pro Indy sentiment in those areas needing placated.


    Also I really can’t wait for all the knuckle dragging “foreigners out” Brexit Supporting unemployed to wake up to the reality that THEY will be working in fish processing (and as agricultural Labour) ‘cos the Tories will stop their benefits because these jobs will be available due to the exit of EU Citizens who no longer feel welcome or who have been kicked out of the country.

  48. Holly Teine says:

    I think the first question is easy enough to answer and most of us, if not all, know the reason: MSM bias, they are on the side of the Union.

    Question 2 is the more interesting and enigmatic. I believe that without Brexit we would have continued to take baby steps with devolution, and eventually found ourselves in a place where there was only one little step left to achieve full independence. And at that point, the SSAS would have continued to show the Scottish Government as being vastly more popular than Westminster, but there would also still be a disconnect between 95% devolution and the 100% that would be independence. People are used to Westminster governing them, and even when they think Holyrood is doing a better job, the status quo wins. Also, too many still think we are too poor etc. so despite doing a good job, we just couldn’t make it on our own.

    Connected to this is what I think is the reason the YES/NO figures haven’t moved much over time. Many people will be hoping that either Brexit won’t happen at all or that the UK will ultimately opt for a softer Brexit. You don’t get 500,000 people marching if they think the whole thing is a done deal – these are people with a huge amount of hope.

    And overall, I think it’s hope that stops independence from being the more popular option, strangely enough! Hope that Scotland will have a great deal of autonomy without doing the scary bit of going it alone, combined with hope that Brexit won’t be “too bad”, or won’t happen, and everything will get back to how it was and we can go on as before.

    I’ll be surprised if Brexit is anything but a disaster, minor or major, and many companies are now making moves as they’ve come to that conclusion also (but they too have hung on as long as they could in hope of a different outcome). I think in the coming months the disparity between the Indy figures and the popularity of the Scottish Govmt figures will start to reduce as more people realise that actually, it’s not going to be all right after all. There are always going to be a lot of people who will cling to the UK in a time of great uncertainty, and will continue to cling (in addition to those who identify as British), but we can hope that enough will think that jumping from the UK ship to the Scotland lifeboat is the better bet.

    And this pondering now returns to the first question in a way, as without the negativity from our media, we would be riding high at going on for 60% I’m absolutely sure. As I’ve been learning over the last weeks and months, the British State is an insidious beast that will stop at nothing to retain power.

    I think we need to work hard on the question of being too poor, because I think that is a big part of people not making the psychological leap from devolution (where we get “given” money to spend as we see fit) and independence (where we generate our own all by ourselves with no “help” from the UK).

    [Apologies for long ramble! Been thinking a lot about this lately!]

  49. Proud Cybernat says:

    Ask them ‘Do you think Scotland should be a normal self governing nation?’


    Should Scotland remain a member of the United kingdom or leave the United Kingdom?

  50. yesindyref2 says:

    The Herald’s doing a great job for Indepdendence, with Ton Gordon being front and centre. It’s deliberately educating people not to trust the spin of the MSM, and every single person who finds out the facts rather than the spin, is another one halfway to a YES vote.


  51. Bobp says:

    Proud cybernat 11.03am. You know what? Thats exactly what i cant get my head around either.

  52. Colin Alexander says:

    So, don’t ask about independence.

    Ask about:

    Which Parliament should be mandated to represent the sovereignty of the people of Scotland?

    The UK Parliament ?


    The Scottish Parliament ?

  53. yesindyref2 says:

    “Should Scotland be an Independent Country?”


  54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Or even,

    “Should Scotland be a normal self-governing country [whisper: like every other country bar none in the world] or =ahem= not?”

  55. jfngw says:

    Who should legislate for Scottish laws/taxes/spending/health/defence/etc:

    Politicians representing Scotland

    Politicians representing other parts of UK (but mostly England)

  56. jfngw says:

    Looks like we were wrong, Mundell is not trying to rebrand Scotland as Scotlandshire but as Lesser Englandshire.

  57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    jfngw @ 15:38,

    Do you think people would finally twig if you were to explicitly add “foreign policy” as well as defence to that heady mix?

    Oh, but those are “reserved matters”, so wee Ken the feartie PO couldn’t possibly allow it…

  58. jfngw says:

    Just to add, to me it would be appropriate if the UK Government in Scotland always flew the St. Georges Cross. As far as I’m concerned Westminster is now the English Parliament, and Mundell is just their Governer here (a sort of bearded Chris Patten). They don’t even bother to try and massage this fact now.

  59. jfngw says:

    If there are any pro-indy journalists out there in the MSM then they are hiding their light under a bushel. The same cannot be said for the Unionist and Brit Nat ones, they are out there in the open, we could all name them, and it would be a fairly long list.

  60. Zak says:

    Ottomanboi @ 1301

    O/T Overall, I think my views are represented here and a reason why I don’t feel the need to comment myself but can I just highlight the misuse of the word Schizoid?

    It’s unfortunate that the meanings can be confused as I’ve often found, even by professional organisations; most recently by a volunteering organisation who required health details and were unduly concerned when I mentioned SPD. They were under the impression my personality could change while engaging with others.

    I’m not wanting to be d*ck about it, I just believe Wingers would prefer being correct about things. I may just have a bee in my bonnet, perhaps another name for SPD could have been found.

  61. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Re Question Indy Ref 2:

    “Should Scotland continue to be treated as a vassal state of Greater England?”


    “Should the Treaty of Union 1707 be dissolved?”

  62. Thepnr says:

    @Jockanese Wind Talker

    Thanks for your link earlier to Bertie Armstrong still trying to kid the fishermen on that after Brexit the size of the Scottish fishing industry could double. Sure it could if we trust Tories like Armstrong not to give any of it away. Some hope but keep kidding yourself Bertie.

    The one that caught my eye was from earlier this week where at the Royal Highland Show the Scottish Farmers Union leaders and the Fish Federation leaders got together to urge the Scottish Government to do something!

    Farming and fisheries leaders today join forces to urge the Scottish Government to ensure sufficient resources are available to deliver the capacity that will be needed to implement trade and export policy after the country leaves the EU.

    The best was still to come though:

    SFF President Ian Gatt stated: “Both the SFF and NFU Scotland are seriously concerned about how prepared the Scottish Government is for a range of Brexit scenarios and about its ability to exercise responsibilities repatriated from Brussels.

    “We are seeking assurances from ministers that they will have the human and material resources to exercise the full range of devolved powers in the run up to, and after Brexit.

    I can only guess that they have yet to learn that power over Agriculture and Fisheries are just two of the powers that will not be returning to Holyrood after Brexit but instead all powers will be administrated from Westminster.

    The power grab seems to have just passed them by, or are they still trying to fool their members that all the shit about to be heaped upon them after Brexit is the Scottish governments fault?

    I’d have to guess the latter, because who in their position could possibly be ignorant of the power grab. That’s what we’re up against but we don’t need to let it pass without getting the truth out there.

  63. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    27 June, 2018 at 3:00 pm
    “Should Scotland be an Independent Country?”


    Yes, but where does a NO vote leave us in Constitutional terms?

    Next time,I’d like a question where both results are Constitutionally sound, respect Scotland’s Sovereignty, and actually resolve or even simply clarify the Constitutional issues.

    Just for the pleasure of seeming Ruth Davidson’s girning face, we should propose to have an annual referendum on whether the sovereign people of Scotland want to “lend” their Sovereignty to Westminster for another 12 months… Unionists would have to win it every year. Yessers, just the once. Hey, that’s democracy!

  64. CameronB Brodie says:

    As we now appear to have entered the realm of theory, here’s some thoughts from a vulnerable individual who finds themselves clinging grimly to the margins of society. Circumstances that will not be improved if Scotland follows England out of the EU. Thanks for undermining my well-being, British nationalist.

    Introduction: On Colonial Unknowing
    Obstinacies of Unknowing


    Colonial unknowing endeavors to render unintelligible the entanglements of racialization and colonization, occluding the mutable historicity of colonial structures and attributing finality to conquest and dispossession. Colonial unknowing establishes what can count as evidence, proof, or possibility—aiming to secure the terms of reason and reasonableness—as much as it works to dissociate and ignore. This essay introduces the issue theme, analyzing epistemologies of unknowing by engaging critical indigenous thought, critical race theory, postcolonial feminist theory, critical disability studies, queer theory, and women of color feminism in order to trouble theorizations of settler colonialism as a stand-alone analytic.

    ….Colonial unknowing takes many forms. For instance, borrowing from Jodi Byrd, the idea of colonial agnosia conveys how colonialism remains pervasive but not comprehended as an extensive and constitutive living formation by those situated in complicity with colonial occupation.4 Colonial agnosia provides a means of theorizing this condition and its practices, not to analogize its operations as a disability, but to indicate the particular ways in which these practices are cathected as unintelligible and rendered as discrete objects or instances without an identifiable relationship. We use agnosia to describe what in the colonial context is both resolutely “normal” and normative, rather than as an ascription of pathology, anomaly, or disorder. The apperceptive subset of agnosia is a neurological condition that entails trouble assembling elements of an image into an understandable whole, and difficulty in grasping the relationship of objects to one another. Agnosia, as a particular manifestation of colonial aporia, indexes how the disjuncture between colonialism as simultaneously everywhere and nowhere shapes the hegemonic terms of the contemporary United States and those places similarly shaped by the foundational and persistent violence of colonial displacement. At stake in colonial agnosia is the profound investment in maintaining the failure to comprehend the realities of colonialism by those people who might most benefit from these conditions. Colonial agnosia refuses relationality.

    Unknowing Researcher’s Vulnerability: Re-searching Inequality on an Uneven Playing Field

    Two Kinds of Unknowing

  65. Sinky says:

    Scotland Office to fly England flag. Not surprising when they promote an English Gin company as an example of a Great exporter.

  66. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    It’ll be that same as Network Rail and Broadband roll out @Thepnr says at 4:20pm

    Reserved to Westminster but still EssEnnPeeBaad.

    This will be reinforced by the BritNat Red, Blue and Yellow Tories and the BritNat Media lying their arses off 24/7/365.

    Also allows for a “These powers are better managed at Westminster because they are prepared and have the human and material resources to exercise the full range of powers returning from Brussels in the run up to, and after Brexit.”

    So predictable.

    So sad, that some will choose to believe this.

    Poor wee BritNats clutching their Butchers Swastika comfort blanket to ward off the nightmare of No Deal Brexit and WTO rules.

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    Derek Rogers says: 27 June, 2018 at 11:11 am:

    “Wings: Why do most of them still want Westminster governments they don’t elect to rule them instead of Scottish ones they DO elect?”

    Well before going any further, Derek, it isn’t clear that view is in fact still true. We know the electorate returned a majority of SNP MPs to Westminster and a majority of MSPs to Holyrood but are we so sure the results were correct or perhaps fudged? Furthermore the First Past the Post elections for Westminster and the rather curious system chosen for Holyrood are strangely different and neither is ideal. Perhaps a shake-up in both is really needed but we have to rely upon Westminster if these are to change.

    Then we have the opinion polls – trust them if you like but I most certainly do NOT trust either the polls or the interpretations put upon the results.

    Then there is the often total political ignorance of certain factions of the electorate who mainly treat elections much the same as they treat supporting, “Their Team”, it Scottish Football. This can best be seen in the Celtic/Rangers rivalry that besmirches Scottish Football.

    This point being that even when Rangers FC was relegated and really should have been thrown out lock, stock and, (cough!), shareholders. While the original Rangers FC ceased to exist the fan base continued and insist that it is still the same club.

    The point is that the fans continued to support, “Their Team”, even when it actually ceased to exist and the last thing the supporters were likely to do was to start supporting the more successful Glasgow team – that is those fans are Rangers fans – not football fans and they continued to support Rangers. It is Team Loyalty not football support.

    This is like the Scottish, “FANS”, a.k.a. followers, of The British unionist Labour Party. Which party also changed their politics but not their colours, but their loyal fan base has continued to follow, follow, the Labour Party even if they are not the same party they once were.

    Again this is team loyalty rather than a support of the game they play. How many times have you heard the claims, “Ma Faither an ma faither’s faither wir Labour voters an Ah’m Labour tae”?

    Team Loyalty is the enemy of both football and politics.

  68. Scottish Steve says:

    I was just about to ask the second question but the article beat me to it. Scots, unionist Scots in particular, are very strange political animals.

  69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 16:20,

    I’m still trying to get my jaw off the floor at that SFU “leadership” fumble. In fact, this is the complete reverse of leadership, it’s a total abdication of responsibility.

    This SFU woodentop must be as big a plant as Armstrong. If I were a farmer observing such arrant misdirection and incompetence over my livelihood, I would be incandescent.

    Whether plain ostrich-like ignorant or in a Tory plot up to their necks, they are collaborating over the abject betrayal of the agriculture sector in Scotland.

    We are crying out for real leadership across the whole spectrum of public life in this country colony.

  70. Thepnr says:

    Aye RJS but what kin we do? London is so big and an economic powerhouse and we are so puny.

    That’ll be right, ther’s plenty we can do and we’re doing it right now. If you can make it join in with the marches. Three to go and you’ll have a great time in Inverness, Dundee or Edinburgh.

    Make it all three even 🙂

    Still needs more though all great ideas welcome and many are being implemented now. We’re still at the beginning of the next push for Independence. I’m thinking we can all lend a hand and do a little bit.

    Many hands make light work, so get involved, time to leave the naysayers behind. We’re taking charge of our own destiny. F*ck Westminster we’re staying in and booting them out.

  71. Ken500 says:

    How low can they go? The Polls used to try and manipulate the vote. Misinformation and miss
    compilations. Lies. Lie after lie after lie. They just make it up. Spin and pretense

    Liars always get found out.

  72. Thepnr says:

    Unsurprisingly the Tory rag the Daily Express has just now weighed in with it’s take on the SFF bullshit propaganda with the headline:

    ‘SHOW SOME BACKBONE’ Fishing bosses demand Brexit COURAGE – as industry may DOUBLE in size

    This is how it works, doesn’t matter if it’s the NFU, SFF or any other union, they commision a “report” that tells them what they want to hear then release the info and the MSM go gaga for it. I’d laugh but it’s pretty chronic that so many fail to see that.

    Sorry I can’t provide a link even on some stories just aren’t even worth the effort.

  73. Christine Sinclair says:

    Gus1940, I quit Private Eye in the run up to Indyref because of this. I thought of all people, in light of the corruption he highlights in every single publication, year after year, Hislop might have understood Scotlands point of view. But no, so I boycott it, preferring to read for free whilst waiting on the train. Another theory I have for this 5 to 1 ratio is that the referendum was in fact fixed, probably though the postal ballot, I know a lot of people wont like to hear that, but can there seriously be so many people going around with such cognative dissonance?

  74. Andy Smith says:

    Christine Sinclair,
    totally agree re postal vote, why such a differential in postal votes as opposed to polling stations, surely they should’ve roughly been same, and not the 70/30 split the postal vote gave.
    Has to be sorted before next ref or we’re done for again.

  75. Ian McCubbin says:

    Agree with Christine Sinclair but think corruption is much where WM has part to play. Hence why I am convinced true Indyref figures were really 60% yes which would give us a swing away by 21%. This is what I saw at a count in perth as postal votes and late ballot boxes were added.
    Something told me things were not right.

  76. Habib Steele says:

    A suggestion for the Indy 2 campaign. Pose the question, “Which risk do you prefer? Risk you future with a Parliament that legislates under the Sovereignty of the People of Scotland, or risk your future with a parliament that has Unlimited Sovereignty in its own right, demonstrates disdain for Scottish MPs and disregards Scotland’s interests for the sake of the interests of the South of England and the wealthy elite?” Make the statement, “You cannot avoid risk”.

    The Wee Blue Book needs to be updated and the Wee Black Book expanded to take in Westminster’s violations of the Treaty and Act of Union since 1707 and up to the present. Video presentations of their contents need to be made and televised. The BBC would not televise them. Perhaps STV and Skye would, for a price.

  77. Cactus says:

    Hi Holly Teine yesterday afternoon at 2:24pm.

    Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading x.

    Keep ramblin’

    Keep postin’

    Feels good.

    ps Belgium is lovely at this time of the year. 🙂

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