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To have and to have not

Posted on June 24, 2018 by

The Sunday Times puts some poll results in an interesting frame today:

And readers who’ve learned anything at all from this site over the last six years will be looking at that tweet and immediately wondering “what AREN’T we being told there?”

Because the paper – not Wings Over Scotland, not the Scottish Government, not the SNP, but the Sunday Times – has set the terms of the poll question as this: has the NHS in Scotland deteriorated under the SNP or not? 

And to that question the poll’s respondents have answered “No”.

That’s because the full result is this:

Has improved: 26%
Has stayed the same: 21%
Has gotten worse: 46%
Don’t know: 7%

Excluding don’t knows, that translates in the context of the paper’s question as:

Has deteriorated: 49.4%
Has NOT deteriorated (ie is as good or better): 50.6%

Really, in polling terms that’s a tie. But in a referendum it’s a win for the No side. So framing it in terms of the number of people voting for the losing option is a really weird way to approach the result. It’s like headlining the indyref, say, as “BLOW FOR SICK UK GOVERNMENT AS NEARLY HALF OF SCOTS VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE”.

(You can, of course, also spin those numbers the other way by saying “67% think it’s worse or no better”. But that isn’t the way the newspaper put it. THEY framed it as a “deteriorated or not?” question, and in that framing “it’s stayed the same” unequivocally goes on the “has not deteriorated” side.)

We’re making no argument here about the actual quality of the service. The SNP came to power in 2007 about six months before a massive global economic crisis, and the UK government has implemented brutal austerity cuts ever since, which impact the NHS both directly and indirectly. Scotland’s population has also grown substantially while the SNP have been in charge – from 5,144,200 to 5,424,800.

That’s almost 300,000 extra people – nearly a 6% increase in a decade, more than the entire combined populations of Aberdeen, Cumbernauld and Motherwell – needing health care since the SNP won the 2007 election, combined with what all independent analyses agree is a real-terms reduction in the Scottish Government’s budget being imposed by the UK government over the period.

Frankly, if the service provided by NHS Scotland hasn’t deteriorated at least a bit under the circumstances of having less money to spend but 300,000 more people to look after, that’s an absolute miracle of governance and resource-juggling for which people ought to be getting medals, not a press which attacks them and the NHS almost every day in its blind, hate-fuelled obsession with doing down the SNP.

But the fact remains that despite all the challenges it faces, and despite that non-stop barrage of feel-bad stories in the media, the Scottish public still DOESN’T think that its health service is getting worse, and it’s odd that the Sunday Times is trying to spin the findings to suggest that it does.

But we suppose we should at least be grateful that a Tory newspaper is suggesting tax rises for the NHS, now that that’s suddenly the new Tory policy:

Even though the Scottish Conservatives and the entire Scottish media have until now consistently and strenuously opposed and voted against higher taxes to fund it, and have instead bleated endlessly – and untruthfully – about Scots being the “highest taxed” people in the UK.

It’s just a weird way to go about it, that’s all.

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    1. 24 06 18 12:56

      To have and to have not | speymouth

    170 to “To have and to have not”

    1. Alex McEwan says:

      Well done yet again Stu. for nailing yet another MSM lie.

    2. gus1940 says:

      One must, of course, wonder what the answer would be if asked about the NHS in England.

    3. vlad (not that one) says:

      One would almost think the Sunday Times has some kind of agenda.

    4. Thepnr says:

      The most obvious reason for a great many of the 46% that believe the NHS in Scotland is doing worse is the “feel-bad stories in the media”.

      Day after day we have headlines or the BBC telling us that it is so and therefore must be true. It’s sickening that the lies pumped out repeatedly have such an effect on people’s views of what is actually going on.

      This is why the likes of Wings are essential, the daily lies must be fought against and there’s no doubt we are making small inroads into getting people to recognise the Truth.

      Keep at it folks, it doesn’t have to be this way.

    5. Welsh Sion says:

      “Has gotten worse.”

      Sunday Times has gotten more American … (and has gotten worse as a result.

    6. Bryan Weir says:

      “You can, of course, also spin those numbers the other way by saying “77% think it’s worse or no better”.”

      Before anyone starts making Dianne Abbott jokes I think that should be 67%. ;o)

    7. Hamish100 says:

      dear Jason Allardyce

      Is 50% more than 49%?

      Please discuss.

      Is set up questions an honest way of working?
      No or No?

    8. Ann Rayner says:

      Are the media in other parts of the UK trumpeting the ‘fact’ that people living in Scotland pay higher taxes?
      If that is the case, though I fear it is a Scottish media phenomenon, perhaps it will discourage people coming to live in Scotland who will vote NO in another Indyref.

    9. Johnny says:

      I’d be interested to know how many merely *imagine* things about the state of the SNHS anyway, ie they haven’t used it lately and are relying on what they are told by those determined to do it down.

      To that end, pollsters should be asking “when did you last use your local hospital”, “when did you last use your GP?” etc as this would be aided up variable to ascertain once and for all where these opinions are coming from.

      Similarly, polling questions which ascertained how much is understood about how things are funded would be good. The same people seem to believe that “we are subsidised by England” (or in essence “they fund our health service”) and that “it’s still somehow the ScotGov’s fault that there’s not enough funding”. This contradiction must be challenged and mocked.

    10. Hamish100 says:

      Is there not millionaires paying little or no tax courtesy of UK Govt? I remember in Dublin seeing a well kent tory salesmen come MEP getting off the flight to connect to Brussels. One of my worthies said it allowed some tax benefit to occur as the person was officially out of the Uk for so many days and it impacted on the tax to be paid. Whether that is a true interpretation I am sure some tax experts can assist. The UK has the upper hand on taxes be it for companies and individuals. If Amazon and the like paid their full whack then maybe the NHS and local authorities would survive.

    11. Capella says:

      These media lies do affect behaviour. Twice recently I’ve been told by individuals they went private to get surgery because of the long waiting times on the SNHS. Yet examples known personally to me are that people are treated quickly and efficiently.

      How many ratchet up unnecessary cost because of the lies. Even worse, how many don’t try to arrange appointments because they believe they won’t get one.

      Another point is the privatised pratices which are failing to keep staff numbers up. They may have to be taken back into SNHS administration. It is Tory and Labour governments in Westminster who are responsible for those problems in the SNHS. A legacy which the SNP government has to deal with.

      Heartening that so many people see through the lies. Sad that so many are taken in and put their health at risk as a result.

    12. Ken500 says:

      The SNHS has not declined under the SNP Gov, especially when compared with the rest of the UK. Where NHS spending has been cut. The ConDems elected to support education and NHS. Cut both. Cut NHS spending £20Billion from 2015 to 2020. £4Billion a year. (Savings?) Cost more. Put in £2Billion+? A&E etc. A complete mess. An international disgrace. People dying on trollies, waiting hours. Social care cuts. In the rest of the UK. The Tories killing off their supporters. The elderly. Life expectancy in the south going down for the first time.

      Cut Education £6Billion.a year. (Saving?) Cost more. Lying ConDems. Put up fees in the rest of the UK. £3Billion in loans there will not get replayed but will be a burden on young people. With increased interest payments.

      The SNP Gov mitigated these cuts. The SNHS/Social care budget was increased nearly £1/2Billion a year From £10Billion to £12.5Billion. MUP will cut spending on SNHS and social services. Over 5 years to implement. More costly because of the wait.

      Increased Education budget. Putting funds into nursery care. £Millions into childcare training.recently.

      Unionist councils use the statutory limit of classroom size (30) as the norm. Keep class size higher and try to cut the allocated education funding. To waste on other non mandated non essential wasteful projects. Teachers short. Cut additional support. Illegally

      Brewer – ‘I don’t understand, l don’t understand’. Kidding on he does not understand. Or Dunce. What a loser. Some political commentator. Rating plummeting. Viewers can’t stand the sight of bias.

      Attainment levels. 25% of mature students are left out of the calculations? Students often from a poorer background. Included in the figures it increases the attainment levels. Life long learning.
      Education funding in the rest of the UK has been cut. Grammar schools selection introduce. Limited choice. Not broad based. 3/4 subjects at A’Levels. Scotland 5/6 Highers more choice. Less fees for Scottish students. Grants & loans,especially for students from poorer household.

      Scotland on of the highest educated countries in the world with one of the highest no of public university (pro rata) in the world, 30% (approx) of pupils go to university from school. 25% (approx) of students are mature students. Average 55%. There are colleges places and good apprenticeship. Skillled trade people can enjoy a comfortable living. 92% of pupils go on to further learning. 20%? of pupils have additional needs. They benefit from College and University. The right essential,support is in place. Often do better than school.

      Scotland has one of the best NHS and Education in the world.

      The Pollsters manipulating the result. To manipulate the vote. Gerrymandering. The piper pays the tune. The usual manipulation of the calculation and results by poor analysis and methodology. Illegal and breaking electoral rules. Getting away with murder. Buying a poll to manipulate the results. Criminal behaviour.

      The Pollsters committing criminality. Censored and fined. A disreputable industry not being regulated properly. Wasting private and public money. Illegal. Secret donation The wealthy illegally influencing elections and poll results. Most of them should be in prison. Even illegally using collect data to try and use illegal influence through the internet. Secretly breaking data protection rules. A criminal offence punishable by prison. Being given knighthoods and honors for illegal participation.

    13. Skip_NC says:

      Hamish, I am thinking back almost seventeen years now, to when I last practiced taxation in the UK, so my memory may be hazy and/or out of date. I believe that the MEP salary is taxed by the state the member is elected from, without regard to residence. Flying from, say Heathrow to Dublin then on to Brussels on the same calendar day wouldn’t work. However, going Heathrow-Dublin and staying the night would work, at least mathematically.

      However, there is still the issue of domicile. That is a much harder test to clamber over. It would, in my view, be hard to argue that an elected representative from a particular state is not domiciles in that state. The House of Lords, being based on citizenship, rather than the ability to vote in the UK, was an anomaly until, as I recall, they closed that loophole.

    14. Hamish100 says:

      skip nc

      Thanks for the response. The MSP had an overnight stay or two in Dublin.

    15. Ken500 says:

      The Sunday Times is a criminal organisation peddling lies. Owned by non Dom tax evaders. A complete disgrace. The illegal manipulating by Thatcher illegally influenced the decision to give ownership of the Times and the Sun to Murdoch, for right wing support.

      Hacking and bribing public officials. So they could tax evade and destroy the economy. Supporting illegal wars and killing and maiming millions of people. Around the world. Sanctioning, starving and killing people. Getting way with murder. Most of them should be in jail. They are despicable. Conspiring illegally to ruin the Scottish economy. Iraq. Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. Under the Official Secrets Act.

      Without a free and fair Press, there is no democracy.

    16. jfngw says:

      It’s not even a sensible question, unless you are using the SNHS. If not then it is really just asking if your impression of the SNHS has deteriorated. With the continuous criticism emanating from the BBC and other media I would be under the impression it was worse.

      I have used it but but what do I compare it with as I previously had not. I can only compare it to my father who in 1995 contracted MRSA (and died) whilst in hospital, I did not so I have to conclude it has improved.

    17. John Jones says:

      I have had the good fortune to have been treated by the SNHS in the last year, (cataracts & an unmentionable op at the bottom end) I can honestly vouch for the excellent treatment I received in both Kirkcaldy & Dunfermline hospitals. All done within the recommended waiting times & follow ups.
      I have spoken to a number of patients who all agree with my findings. It’s the old story, some people are never happy & will always find something to moan about.

    18. Ian McCubbin says:

      Yet again you call these liars out. Thanks for great work.
      I will tweet this.

    19. Ken500 says:

      MEP’s do not pay tax. (Anywhere?) Tax exempt. Expenses. Special status?

      Lawson who bankrupted Britain. A Brexiteers resides in France has taken French citizenship for free movement in the EU. A staunch Brexiteer campaigns for Brexit. Is a menber of the HoL. HoL members are supposed to be British residents and pay taxes. Tax evader? Breaking UK Law he should be censored. Hypocrite.

      Farague/children has taken (duel? ) German citizenship. Passport for free movement. Has been evading tax for years and not shown accounts. Embezzling EU money. Using public money to fund a political a political Party. A criminal offence. The EU is clawing back €Millions he used to fund UKIP and Officials. He claims he is bankrupt and destitute. Chancer.

      Arron Banks has been acting illegally. Making money out of Brexit. £Millions? Breaking electoral,Laws. Wait patiently for the prosecution. Charges brought, Farague’s associate was charged with embezzlement and fraud in the US. A. Banks and associate Gilmore? gave detail of the charges to the Russian embassy. Russia ambassador. Banks is alleged to be given £Millions from the Russian. Associate dirty dossier on Trump. Skcipal created the dirty dossier. Made up details to discredit Trump.

    20. Auld Rock says:

      Typical, as someone above said a great number of people are getting this view from MSM and the BBC in particular. The BBC national news have a very, very bad habit of bringing up horror stories in the English NHS with if we’re lucky, oh, this is England Scottish NHS is separate. As a user of NHS here in Shetland a lot of our problems surrounds finding Doctors, Nurses, Radiographers etc. which are down to a shortage of Docs etc mainly down to Brexit.

      I heard an English Doctor on yesterdays march in London saying that they had lost in excess of 10,000 European Docs and over 30,000 Nurses.

      The sad thing is that no amount of increase and Docs and Nurses in training in the coming year will not bare fruit for at least four years in the case of Nurses and some 12 to 14 years for GP’s.

      If they must play the ‘blame game’ then let them turn their guns on those responsible and while everyone will immediately think of the Tories let them not forget the wishy-washy Remain campaign of Corbyn who I believe is a closet Brexiteer.

    21. So they trumpet their lies about the Snhs being worse of under the SNP but try to hide the benefits the SNP have given to Scotland no prescription charges no student fees no hospital car parking charges no road tolls free care for the elderly etc., etc., as for the Incomers voting no the answer is do not give them a vote no one but those who were born and live in Scotland should have say in the future of Scotland Cameron did it in the EU referendum so we can do the same in ref., 1 80 per cent of Incomers voted no thus having a say in Scotland’s future and it is not their country so please SNP don’t let it happen again and certainly no postal votes then the true wishes of the Scottish people will be heard

    22. Auld Rock says:

      Blair Paterson, nice idea but I like many in rural areas live some 6.5 miles from my Polling Station with no regular bus service. So, as there are two Independence Oldies in our household, what do we do, please?

    23. Bob Mack says:

      I really am somewhat bemused about the people who answer these surveys. The last patient satisfaction survey in 2016 showed users rather happy with the services provided. On average 70%.Another questionnaire is due this year.
      Staff also appear to be happy with arecent eagagement index
      Measure of 75.

      Considering users and staff have posted these results, where did the negative replies to this poll originate.
      Rather suspicious.

    24. Artyhetty says:

      So the SNP bad continues and is even stepped up a pace in prep for England’s Scottish office takeover, so they can run things their way. Non of this fancy improvement in peoples’ lives, that just can’t do in Brexit ridden, Tory utopia for the rich in the rUK.

      Cushioning the terrible financial blows from UK Tory and Labour party imposed austerity on the most vulnerable, and the impact on our services etc, must be quite a burden on Scotland’s purse.
      The indirect cuts to Scotland’s budget, as Stuart points out.

      Now just what any Britnat Labour or Tory, or even Libdem, party would propose to do about the UKgov’s sizeable cuts to Scotland’s budget, with the growth in Scotland’s population, the impact on services and infrastructure, and with the removal of Scotland’s revenues and abundant resources by Westminster continuing unabated, would be very interesting to know.

      They tend to prefer sending Scotland’s money back to Westminster as they did when in power at Holyrood in 2006/7.

      Now if Scotland had full fiscal levers right now, imagine how much better it could be.

      All of this Scotland is s***e stuff in the unionist rags and on the Tory news surely must have people wondering about what it is the UKGov are not doing, to support poor, struggling, subsidy junkie wee Scotland? But that’s not how propaganda works is it, and don’t the UKGov know it!

    25. Ken500 says:

      These services could be improved further. If Scotland was independent. No spending on illegal wars, tax evasion,financial fraud and Trident. Spending more on essential services.

      Improving Oil & Gas industry , fishing & farming. Better management. More profits. Spending more on essential services. Higher wages and pensions. More prosperity, equality and happy.

    26. John McLean says:

      I am now , and have been ,a heavy user of SNHS since
      1994 and if the current level of care and professionalism
      I have encountered is a deterioration of standards then those
      who believe so are seriously deluded and in need of urgent assistance.

    27. Proud Cybernat says:

      All the NOs are doing it. The ultimate ‘Journey to YES‘.

      ‘The Woman Who Changed Her Mind’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jmD-tusUN0&feature=youtu.be

    28. Andy-B says:

      It’s the Times job like majority of the media in Britain to do down Scotland especially under a SNP government. It doesn’t matter that our NHS is the best performing in Britain by a country mile. We must be constantly reminded that we’re just not capable of making Scotland a better place.

    29. jfngw says:

      BBC Reporting Scotland on SNHS, it’s a bit like watching Labour at FMQ’s. They will find some poor unfortunate sole that has had a bad experience and interpolate that to be the normal SNHS treatment. I suspect their interest in these people does not extend much beyond period of their exploitation for the purpose required.

      Having dealt with my Labour MSP (unseated but still there) his interest waned once he discovered I was not interested in posing for any local newspaper story. He seemed to just want a photo opportunity.

    30. Iain mhor says:

      Stories and polls with the same frequency and modus operandi as ‘Post Office Baaad’ sustained over a couple of years across the MSM and yellow press.
      If you can lever SNP Baaad into the equation this time, so much better, but it’s primary function is undermining, demolishing and privatising it.
      Obvious point is obvious.

    31. Northern Rock says:

      Ronnie Anderson was a bit vague with the numbers regarding how much was raised at the THREE marches of Glasgow Dumfries and Bannockburn.

      ” £304 donated for merchandise.
      With the £286 carried forward from Dumfries, the Wings stall has £590 for future projects,”

      I asked about the THREE Marches.

      How much was raised at the massive Glasgow march???

      And who’s name is on the bank account???

      How much have Wings raised all together.?

      And why is “Brian from doon the toon” always there when the money is being counted.?

      Is it a case of “one to you, one to me” ?

      I donate to the Wings stall but will be stopping because IMO it is getting used by two people for their personal gain.

      The Independence Movement is about all the people of Scotland, not for a couple of chancers to make as much as they can at the expensive of misguided supporters.

      So does anybody know what the grand total collected from all the marches and rallies is at the moment?

    32. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Lest we forget the Red Cross were mobilised into English hospitals as the head of the Red Cross said there was a “humanitarian crisis”

      It didn’t get a lot of coverage in the British Nationalist press.

      Shockarooney.

    33. ronnie anderson says:

      Arsehole at 2.17 your good at Trolling Troll back to each event & the amounts raised are online

    34. Dan Huil says:

      Excellent journalism from the Rev. You won’t find honest journalism in the britnat media.

    35. Dr Jim says:

      As with everything Unionist when it comes to sums, adding up, subtracting, dividing (well they’re good at that, the dividing that is) computering, just generally anything to do with numbers, they didnae turn up at the school the day they were daein that because they’re never right are they, and you’d think after making numbers up for so long they’d at least get some right even by accident

      A Yoon poll *We asked 14 chipmunks whether they could stick their fingers up their Erses 10 times out of 10* the answer?
      The chipmunks had previously been housed in Edinburgh Zoo so were SNP brainwashed and unable to perform to UK standard chipmunks, We had the same trouble wae they SNP Pandas

    36. E Cameron says:

      Blair Patterson

      If you make the Indyref2 vote only eligible to people who are born and live in Scotland, you will lose my, and hundreds like me, Yes votes.

      Can you be that sure of a Yes vote, that ours are not needed?

    37. Keith fae Leith says:

      As a long term lurker and rare poster (most of the time my thoughts are more eloquently put by others before I get the change to post mine.)

      I know the rules relating to bacon rolls and how to treat them.

      But, please correct me if I’m wrong, the wings stall & Wings website are separate entities.

      The stall is ran by volunteers who source/manufacture the goods for sale, the surplus is donated to local good causes, foodbanks etc.

      Some cash, lets call it a float, is kept aside to acquire/make more goods to sell. A basic social enterprise or small not for profit organisation.

      Would anyone demand to know the takings from the catering van, local pub, ice cream seller, or from what I remember seeing the Ayemail stall?

      Good numbers from the marches so far, shall look forward to the
      Edinburgh one myself.

      In the meantime I’ll go back to lurking, reading and campaigning in my neighbourhood.

    38. Colin Alexander says:

      O/T

      Regarding AUOB marches:

      Well done all those that marched in Stirling. Sorry, I couldn’t make it this time.

      Am I correct in thinking there will be no march in Aberdeen, when Aberdeen has over 6x the population of Stirling and around 50,000 more than Dundee?

      For maximum exposure, I think the major cities should have been covered.

    39. Orri says:

      Strikes me that the problem is the question rather than the result.

      First, what was the question in the first place and did it mention the SNP by name?

      Second, did it make it clear it was only about Scotland and not UK as a whole.

      Third, without a context we don’t know what people think of how the NHS is performing. Even those who think standards have fallen might still thing it’s doing well rather than excellent or superbly.

    40. Colin Alexander says:

      I have immense praise for the Scottish NHS and the many dedicated and hardworking staff who work there; it has literally been a life saver for several people near and dear to me.

      However, I’m sorry to say, like any huge organisation, it has some bad eggs that risk damaging its reputation.

      Even worse, when their abuses are reported, it’s like trying to get the BBC to take action against Jimmy Saville.

      If someone makes a complaint of abuse against a Health Board or its staff, the Health Board go into cover-up mode and then the Scottish Government go into denial mode.

      There is no real investigation. The alleged abusers investigate themselves and find themselves innocent. There is no independent system to investigate complaints.

      The level of abuse has to be criminal, with criminal level evidence available, so that you could then ask the Police to investigate.

      Take it to an MSP or the Scottish Govt and you would be told: take it to the SPSO: Not interested.

      However, the SPSO are not investigators. They shuffle paper and pretend to be unbiased ombudsmen who look for a clerical error to uphold.

      No wonder the bad eggs are so happy with Shona “See no evil, hear no evil”, Robison.

    41. Robert Louis says:

      What is ‘concern trolling’

      “Concern trolling is a form of Internet trolling in which someone enters a discussion with claims that he or she supports the view of the discussion, but has concerns. In fact, the concern troll is opposed to the view of the discussion, and he or she uses concern trolling to sow doubt and dissent in the community of commenters or posters. Although this practice originated on the Internet, it has since spread to the real world as well, with concern trolls popping up in a variety of places from network television to op-ed columns.’

      Source : https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-concern-trolling.htm#

    42. galamcennalath says:

      Spoke to an elderly neighbour the other day. He’d just had an operation with NHS Scotland. He was full of praise for the treatment and care he received.

      But here’s twist. He was surprised.

      He had gone in with intrepidation based on all the horror stories he had read about. He almost certainly gets his news and world view from the legacy media and BBC.

      I do wonder what the poll results would have been if they had filtered out anyone who hadn’t had recent patient experience (either personally or close family). If the sample in the poll contained people without actual experience of our Health Service, then it is just bollocks. What it measures is the effect of BritNat propaganda!

      I could say Mercedes make wonderful cars, but I can’t because I have never owned one, nor ever will. Expressing opinions based on heresay means nothing. Scoring political points using heresay based evidence is scraping the sewer bottom.

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says: 24 June, 2018 at 1:18 pm:

      ” … as for the Incomers voting no the answer is do not give them a vote no one but those who were born and live in Scotland should have say in the future of Scotland … “

      Take your vile raciest views elsewhere, Blair. You disgrace the Scottish Independence movement with such claptrap.

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      Jason is a glass half empty person 🙂

      I wonder what the same question would elicit in Tory England?

    45. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 24 June, 2018 at 1:23 pm:

      ” … Considering users and staff have posted these results, where did the negative replies to this poll originate.”

      Obviously from their own brainwashed readership, Bob Mack, and guess who it was that brainwashed the readership?

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 11:51

      The most obvious reason for a great many of the 46% that believe the NHS in Scotland is doing worse is the “feel-bad stories in the media”.

      And on the same theme
      Johnny @ 12:14,
      jfngw @ 13:04,

      Yes, very much so. It’s all about impressions harvested from the relentless barrage of media nay-saying, not about personal experience.

      The paper might as well have asked instead “How is our concerted anti-SNP propaganda working these days?”

      The answer being, it’s having an effect, but not nearly as well as you might hope.

      And enough to keep the doubters onboard for the Union, once the new indy campaign begins in earnest…?

    47. Arbroath1320 says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      24 June, 2018 at 2:49 pm
      O/T

      Regarding AUOB marches:

      Well done all those that marched in Stirling. Sorry, I couldn’t make it this time.

      Am I correct in thinking there will be no march in Aberdeen, when Aberdeen has over 6x the population of Stirling and around 50,000 more than Dundee?

      For maximum exposure, I think the major cities should have been covered.

      I believe you are correct Colin.

      From my solitary brain cell’s recollection there are only three further AUOB marches planned, namely Inverness, Dundee and Edinburgh.

      I’m a bit surprised Aberdeen isn’t holding an AUOB march nor is Perth another “fantastic” Tory city as I recall. 😉 😀

    48. Robert Peffers says:

      @Northern Rock says: 24 June, 2018 at 2:17 pm:

      If you cannot substantiate what you are claiming then you are in great danger of having to defend your claims with hard evidence for your claims. If you cannot back them with real evidence they are decidedly illegal.

    49. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander@ 15:49:

      O/T Well done all those that marched in Stirling. Sorry, I couldn’t make it this time.

      We have no need of your fake commendation, since I seriously doubt you have been on any of the indy marches, for the obvious reason anyone who has followed your pernicious SNPbaaaad output might readily deduce.

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 24 June, 2018 at 2:49 pm:

      ” … For maximum exposure, I think the major cities should have been covered.”

      I had just been wondering to myself when Colin would turn up with his usual cack-handed attempt to put a damper on anything good the YES Movement, SNP, SG or AUOB have done so well. I had not long to wait.

      Is it not strange that all this negativity at anything good reported on Wings has the same group of half, (empty), numpties comes around the same time as each other?

      It is almost as if there is just one of them going under different names?

    51. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 24 June, 2018 at 3:21 pm:

      ” … What is ‘concern trolling’
      “Concern trolling is a form of Internet trolling in which someone enters a discussion with claims that he or she supports the view of the discussion, but has concerns.Source :”

      Nail on head. Robert Louis, and it is always the same person, or persons, doing it here on Wings:

      So I will repeat your link:-

      ttps://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-concern-trolling.htm

    52. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 16:06,

      Och, there’s probably two of them. But well observed all the same.

      Negativity and disillusionment are the only weapons that Bitter Together have left. All the rest have evaporated under the heat of harsh reality.

      Proud Cybernat @ 13:49,

      Great effort there, my friend, if it was yours. (It has your hallmarks.)

      The best antidote to all the diversionary pish from the media and their wee band of insidious social media fellow-travellers.

    53. Thepnr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Nicely done 🙂

    54. bjsalba says:

      Who owns the Sunday Times?

      Who is the billionaire behind this publication?

      Isn’t one Rupert Murdoch – owner of the Trump-loving Fox News?

      Have I got it Someone put the record straight, please.

    55. Colin Alexander says:

      Who’s criticising the AUOB marches?

      Certainly not me.

      I’m saying there should be at least another one – in Aberdeen.

    56. Colin Alexander says:

      As for the Scottish NHS, I’m full of praise for it, in the main.

      The SNP Scot Govt have done a better job than previous administrations in supporting the NHS and other public services in Scotland, considering the financial constraints.

      However, there is a very serious lack of independent investigation of complaints and lack of redress.

      And the Scottish Govt, in particular Shona Robison, has buried her head in the sand too long about this.

      That is fair and balanced criticism. Not SNP bad: SNP, here’s how you could do better.

    57. bjsalba says:

      Auld Rock

      Contact your local SNP Branch.

      I’m sure they will be able to arrange something.

    58. Illy says:

      THe first thing that popped into my head when I saw that headline was “And how many of them think it’s the SNP’s fault?”

      Probably a whole lot less than the number who think it’s deteriorated.

    59. HandandShrimp says:

      The marches have gone well so much fun and so good-natured. Even the weather has been on our side.Edinburgh is an addition to the original plan isn’t it? There may be one in Aberdeen yet.

      There is a quiet buzz in the air. I was on an SNP street stall on Saturday and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised at the positive reaction. Even those who clearly weren’t pro SNP had a weary acceptance rather than the indignant glare of the past. This is very good.

    60. Silverytay says:

      Don’t often comment these days but would like to add my tuppence worth about the Scottish Health Service
      Last Monday afternoon my wife had to rush me to PRI A&E with a suspected heart attack .
      On Tuesday I was transferred to Ninewells in Dundee
      Fortunately for me it turned out not to be a. Heart attack and I was discharged from Ninewells on Thursday evening after my latest test came back clear
      I can not praise the staff at PRI and Ninewells high enough for the way my wife and I were treated from the Monday to the Thursday
      As someone who has had to rely on the Scottish Health Service all his life it makes my blood boil to hear people knocking it .
      Is it perfect , certainly not .
      It is impossible for an organisation of that size to be perfect , the people who work there are only human .

    61. Bill McLean says:

      If only there was some way these papers could be taken to court. This sort of headline will frighten many of our elderly (me too) and the chronically ill. Is the Times happy that it does this and how much investigation has it done into how much better the Scottish Health Service is than those in the rest of the UK. Really pig sick of these irresponsible liars!!!

    62. Confused says:

      my favourite “concern trolling” is this – when England have won a “great victory” you say to the nearest inglish –

      “yeah, got to take your hat off – MAGNIFICENT victory … yeah, superb … but you know …” (drifting off)

      – “you were goner saw sumfink -jock- wot woz it …?”

      (in a stage whisper)
      “you can’t really say these things anymore – but you know … its not exactly the team of Moore, Stiles, Greaves … IF YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN … “(end with a stare)

      – now comes the moneyshot … 95% of the time you get them …

      mostly – 70% its
      -“yeahh … know wot yir on abaht jock … I mean – they all got a ‘bit of a tan’ – but what can you do … ”
      – now it gets really interesting – anything can happen – you have been drawn into their confidence – shared a little secret
      – bonus points for “I blame the Labour Party” and the bullseye is “Enoch was right” – but the young ones don’t know who “Enoch” is …

      – you can start to have some REAL FUN with this as you reveal yourself as a Scottish Nationalist who believes in it because “England is full of wogs – we don’t want that up north” – and you see them go into a panic – for they AGREE with you – so find themselves supporting Scottish Independence which they thought they were against … they then spend the next 3 hours buying you drinks and convincing you that “the jocks” should stay in the union as “white people need to stick togevah” …

      the other 25% will go the other way
      “OMIGOD THATS SOOOOOOOOOO -RACIST- … youre a racist … you dun a racissmmm … ”
      – if the target was a student then they go into a strange “reset – rebooting windows” mode as reality – an actual racist – has penetrated the echo chamber of their consensus driven safe space, where all my friends and associates and teachers – all share EXACTLY THE SAME VIEWS because we are so “woke”, righteous and FREE to express views we have been told to.

      About 1 in 20 will rumble you, but it depends on your own skill level.

      If a genuine “ALL WOGS OUT NOW, ALL MUSLIMS, ALL BLACKS” ever emerged on the English political scene – not these strange Tommy Robinson milquetoasts – nothing would stop him.

    63. Brian Powell says:

      There is a Scottish NHS, it is not just the NHS in Scotland. Language is important, don’t let the enemy frame the language we use about Scotland.

    64. K1 says:

      The correct official name is ‘NHS Scotland’ or sometimes referred to as NHSScotland. Yes there is no ‘in’ between the S and Scotland. It’s not the NHS ‘in’ Scotland, as if to imply that it’s ‘UK’ based with a branch in Scotland.

      It is indeed the National Health Service Scotland. Best way to say is conversationally is ‘Scottish NHS’ as that in fact what it is. It’s not the same organisation at all as England’s or Ireland’s or Wales’s.

      I had a wee back and forth with Shona Robertson about the name a year or so back. About changing it’s name so that it was more distinctive and less conflation from msm et al. She just emphasised what I’ve outlined above. There is little we can do except as you point out Brian, but to emphasise this time and time again. 🙂

    65. Colin Alexander says:

      At Westminster, David Duguid (Scottish Tory MP) introduced a bill to include screening for a genetic condition along with the current screening checks at birth.

      https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-press-and-journal-north-east/20180607/281547996585569

      Yet, this would be for the NHS in England.

      Those who are proud of the achievements of the SNP Scot Govt and think they do a better job, why don’t you ask them to get the Scottish NHS to take the lead in this matter, instead of trailing behind England.

      Let’s prove the Scottish govt and Scottish NHS are the LEADERS in Health care.

    66. McDuff says:

      Just flicked the news headlines for Sky,BBC and ITV and they all lead with England’s victory over Panama population 4m.
      Brace brace.

    67. twathater says:

      C A @2.49pm Re AUOB marches , Colin I personally am extremely and eternally grateful for anything anyone ever does to promote independence , so I am sure the AUOB would be happy to engage your assistance with a March in Aberdeen or Perth

      I remember in one of your posts that you were representing clients in reference to the SNHS so I am sure you would be an asset to organisational situations

      I was a shop steward from an early age representing members from UCATT and the TGWU , and was always surprised at the amount of suggestions coming from certain members who had GREAT ideas about disputes and how we could tell the management to do this or that , then when it came to elections when I suggested they put their name up they always found some reason not to . The usual reason not to was ” I widnae represent these arseholes ” (quite honestly I would never have them represent me or mine )

      There will always be backroom lawyers , don’t be a backroom lawyer become part of AUOB or go forth with your ideas

      I would like to express my heartfelt thanks and admiration to the members and volunteers at AUOB for ALL the organising and preparation it takes to create these enjoyable inclusive events , your work is greatly appreciated and respected .

    68. Orri says:

      The really annoying thing about renaming the new Southern General wasn’t it being named as some kind of gift to the Queen seeing as she’s a Scot on her mothers side which is something those doing down Scotland need to remember. It was the sheer ducking waste of money on signage and stationary that had to be updated.

      Changing NHSScotland to something else will cost quite a bit more. Especially as so many uniforms have it on them. The SNP would be portrayed as doing it for political rather than practical reasons and wasting money.

    69. Colin Alexander says:

      K1

      Do you mean Shona Robison ( Cabinet Secretary for Health)?

      I’ve tried talking to her.

      Her reply was the WORST EVER reply from a politician so far. The reply never addressed a single issue raised.

      Disgraceful avoidance waffle.

      Though, I don’t think she even composed it or wrote it. I think it was a civil servant’s mince talk and she just signed it to pretend it was a reply from her.

      One of the reasons why I think the FM should bite the bullet and sack her, for the sake of the independence campaign.

      As Shona Robison is an open goal for the Unionists to do SNP bad. Though, Mr Matheson, Cabinet Secretary is arguably worse.

    70. Jock McDonnell says:

      Good Evening & welcome to STV’s World Cup coverage of Poland v Colombia, so lets get started immediately and talk about England … again

    71. twathater says:

      Confused @5.34pm your post is a incoherent rant using despicable deliberate inflammatory language and IMO is designed to DAMAGE this site , delete it

    72. Breeks says:

      How about a survey on Broadcasting Rev Stu?

      1) Do you think your news is impartial?
      2) Do you think you are influenced by propaganda?
      3) Do you think your friends are influenced by propaganda?
      4) To what extent do you think your views are influenced by propaganda?
      5) Do you trust your news provider?
      6) Do you think your news provider gives value for money?

      Put some heat on the BBC…

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 18:18:

      There will always be backroom lawyers, don’t be a backroom lawyer become part of AUOB or go forth with your ideas.

      If you think this (pseudo-)personage is at all interested in helping AUOB, more fool you. (sorry)

      It’s hard to judge how believable anything that this character writes may be, but who engages in regular correspondence with a range of Government ministers, always it seems with the aim of “proving” how inadequate they are?

      This is someone who is clearly pursuing the exact same Labourite line as the media. I mean really, how ordinary a person is this character?

      We need the “advice” of a false flag like him as much as we need a dose of salmonella.

    74. Colin Alexander says:

      twathater

      I think the AUOB marches and the marchers are one of the best, if not, the best advert for independence right now.

      Ordinary, but sovereign Scots from all ethnic and national backgrounds peacefully and cheerfully marching, waving their flags. Creating a wonderful positive spectacle for Scottish independence.

      AND IT’S NOT SNP, though they are welcome too: It’s for anyone who supports the people of Scotland taking back political control of their country.

      So, I would encourage marchers and bystanders to sing and chant pro-independence, pro-Scotland things in preference to any negative remarks about any political parties or politicians.

      Maybe they could pre-arrange it, say at 2pm on a march, that everyone on the march sings in unison: Flower of Scotland?

    75. Calum McKay says:

      Are you appalled at the level of knife crime in London?

      Are you appalled at the quality of care in the Welsh NHS?

      Do you think the tories are taking Scots for fools?

      Ask a question you want an answer to that supports you belief and you will get the right answer!

      We’re the 20 000 who marched at Bannockburn yesterday, hero’s?

      Yes, each and every one of them!

    76. starlaw says:

      confused at 5-34

      what was all that incoherent rubbish about, have you been smoking Wacky backy along with the cheap plonk.
      Next time you feel the urge to write on a subject, best remind yourself your to stupid to write anything sensible, and go and sleep it off.

    77. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      I’m nobody special and yet I am someone special: I’m a sovereign Scot.

      And I want to be able to exercise that sovereignty.

      I want to be able to help vote in or vote out the politicians who help run my country.

      Not have my country run by UK MPs and UK Lords, unelected by and unaccountable to the people of Scotland.

    78. ronnie anderson says:

      Silvertay Michiel i hope your feeling much better all the Best pal .

    79. gerry parker says:

      @ silvertay,

      Hope you’re feeling better now sir, I’ll be forever grateful for what you did for me during my campaign.

      Hope to see you again soon.

    80. Legerwood says:

      Colin Alexander @ 6.14pm

      Re genetic testing for DiGeorge Syndrome.

      As the statement from the Scottish Government spokesman quoted in the newspaper article makes clear initial steps have already been taken with regards to implementing screening for this condition.

      The statement quoted was as follows:
      “”The Scottish Government, like the rest of the UK, takes advice about all aspects of screening policy and implementation from the Independent expert UK National Screening Committee.
      “”We have written to the National Screening Committee to highlight this issue for their consideration and advice. The Committee will be open for submission to consider proposals later this year.
      End quote.

      Any Bill to institute such a screening programme would have to involve this National Committee and the Scottish Government has already alerted them to the issue mire quickly and directly than is possible via an MP’s Bill which has to go through various stages before it becomes an Act ready for implementation.

      The Committee would have to be involved at some point in the framing and passage of the Bill to ensure at the very least that such a screening programme is feasible and practicable. For example, can the test be scaled up to deal with the numbers that would have to be tested – 55,000 babies or so are born in Scotland each year for example and many more in the UK as a whole. What sort of sample would be required – cord blood, whole blood or sample from the Guthrie card.

    81. Marcia says:

      Many people of these islands don’t realise that there are 4 distinct National Health Services and not one NHS. Scotland was a year ahead of England. That needs to made clearer but you have ‘network’ TV or radio that doesn’t make the distinction.

      So ‘nearly half’ means more than half are happy.

    82. Gullane No4 says:

      My wife has been a patient at the sharp end of cancer surgery for the last two years. The treatment she has received from the SNHS has been superb, especially The Beatson and Crosshouse. The staff have been so caring and upbeat an absolute credit to Scotland.

      She had to have some emergency treatment in the NE of England and whilst the staff there were doing their best it did look like the patients and staff were at the end of their tether. It was also £8 a day to use the car park, that is if you were lucky enough to find a space.

      I can assure you that my friends and relatives from England and Wales are very envious of our SNHS.

      Scottish politicians who try to make political point scoring out of insulting our SNHS should either find out what is happening in rUK, shut up or hang their heads in shame.

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 19:15,

      You have a very funny=peculiar way of showing it. Stirring declarations of undying support, followed soon enough, all too predictably, by insidious undermining of each and every means of achieving any of it, supplemented by gaslighting whenever challenged.

      Our very own house Iago.

    84. Ken500 says:

      Temperature up. Warmer weather means less people get ill. More people get ill in the winter months.

      Scotland had more elderly people pro rata. Needs more (pro rata) spent on health care. Increased personal care. Saves costs. Keeps older people in their own home. Social care approx £60+ a week. Residential Home £600+ a week. Hospital care £600+ a day.

      People in Scotland died earlier (pro rata) Less is spent on (UK) pensions. (Paid by taxes raised in Scotland) = £6Billion. a year.

      In the rest of the UK £72Billion? pro rata) Divide £72Hillion by 11/12 (pop) = £6.5Billion a year.

    85. Maria F says:

      mmmm. What con act is being cooked here? I wonder

      A general rise in taxes to cover the massive hole blown on UK finances with Brexit and to compensate for a sharp fall in corporation taxes using the NHS carrot as the smokescreen methinks.

      Let’s see:

      Weeks before the announcement of an increase in funding for NHS England, there were some articles in the MSM claiming that the people of England was happy to pay more taxes in order to help out the NHS. These sort of articles have been zig-zagging in the press for years, but have been, in my opinion, more frequent since the EU ref. Why, I wondered? At around the same time, we have self-serving opportunistic Ruth Davidson giving speeches to the Scots pretending to be in some position of power to “demand” from her English masters more investment in the NHS ,as if this deluded woman ever had lifted a finger without their English masters saying so – the way she and her 31 useful minions vote in HOlyrood speaks volumes.

      Miraculously, after driving NHS England to its knees, after driving junior doctors to despair, after releasing the Naylor report aiming at bleeding the NHS dry even more by forcing it to sell property to contribute to its own funding, after causing chaos in A&E etc in NHS England, an increase in funding is announced for NHS England. Why? I wonder. This does not make any sense. These crooks are bent on driving the NHS to its knees. So is this “extra funding” really for the NHS?

      Miraculously, apparently, that increase in funding is going to come out from 3 even more miraculous sources:

      1. Increase in taxation (when the tories claimed in their manifesto that they would not do that)
      2. Economic growth (which in the current climate, one cannot help but considering this is wishful thinking)
      3. That newly discovered mythical creature otherwise known as “the Brexit dividend”

      Now, the questions for me are:
      1. Is this increase in tax really for the NHS or for something else and the NHS is just the excuse to soften the public?

      2. Would Tories and Labour ever be brave enough to rise taxes for England and Wales but not Scotland? I don’t think so: that would destroy their credibility in the eyes of their voters. The other question is, how are they going to do that exactly? Wouldn’t this open the way for England to have its own devolved budget like the rest of the nations forcing it to cut down its mammouth expenditure to manageable levels like the rest of the nations must do? Would this open the way for proper devolution for England? That is never going to happen. England must have direct access to the entire UK purse to survive.

      3. What if there is no economic growth or this is lower than expected? Who is going to make up for the fall in revenues that were destined to the NHS?

      3. What (actually who) is the “brexit dividend”? Because it has been shown in the press that the current cost of brexit per week surpasses the 350 m offered by Johnson, Gove and the rest of the leave clowns as savings from EU membership. So, my question is, are the people of Scotland, Scotland’s 24 devolved powers and Scotland’s assets part of “the brexit dividend”?

      Why do I think taxation is the only reliable mechanism to ensure available funds and therefore why do I think the other two sources are just tory smoke to make the taxation look lower than it should be?

      Now, should these crooks at Westminster increase the general taxation for the entire UK, then they cannot simply increase NHs funding for England. They will have to increase funding for Scotland and NI too. So at all effects, in my view, we are force fed these articles to make us believe the opinion of the people of Scotland actually matters when it does not. It has already been decided we like it or not that an increase in taxation will be implemented “to increase funds for the NHS of England” and that is that.
      Now, once that taxation has increased, it will not decrease again. So if in 5 years’ time these crooks decide to reduce the funding for the NHS, are they going to give back the extra taxes or are they going to redirect those taxes to somewhere else, like to compensate for a cut in corporation taxes?

    86. Iain says:

      I feel sorry for the simpletons that buy these rags.
      Maybe we should be more sympathetic to yoons.
      Maybe they should be treated with more understanding.
      Maybe it is cruel and harsh to mock their disability.
      Maybe we should show more respect for their point of view.
      Then again, why should we and our children go down with the sinking ship g.b.empire.
      Freedom awaits.
      It is up to us to take it.

    87. Liz g says:

      OT & sorry if it’s already been mentioned further up
      I’m reading a FB post from a Cameron Archiebald claiming to be an open letter to AUOB sayin that

      The group that carry the Tory Scum Out banner are called The Seed of the Gael
      and they are racist especially against the English.

      Does anyone know if any of that’s true or have heard of this Cameron guy????
      Claims to be local to Stirling!

    88. Thepnr says:

      @silvertay

      Glad to hear you recovered and that your experience of our NHS was a positive one, once things kick off again I’ll be looking you up to help out in Arbroath. All hands to the pump and all that.

    89. Orri says:

      The key phrase is “our long term aim”

      So no immediate rise in NHS funding but a promise of one. The tax rise will be far easier to achieve.

      Suspect there’ll be a move to a single UK wide NHS funding n order to cut costs.

      Come a few years WW1 will be old hat and it’ll be the Blitz spirit and all in it together that’ll be punted.

    90. Big del says:

      In the pub today for my last before away for 3 weeks.
      Pub had many sevcoR PISH/Scottish Engerland fans in ,which is their entitlement ?.
      Anyhoos, when the tribals ( in Russia) started singing/chanting with knuckles on the ground started the-
      “ f—k of Scotland we are all voting yes” chant started, well I was loud and proud…. “ see ya bunch of stupid. c—-s they don’t want ye”

      Went well ?

    91. Silverytay says:

      Ronnie / Gerry
      Getting a lot better thanks
      If they new what caused it I would feel a lot better still
      All they know is something threw my heart out of kilter
      I have still to receive more tests as an outpatient so hopefully I might find out what went wrong .
      On the plus side I know my Arteries and Heart are fine as I was given an Angiagram on Wednesday
      Hopefully I might make the march in Dundee or Inverness

    92. crazycat says:

      @ Lizg

      I have no idea about the substance of Cameron Archibald’s assertion, but he himself does exist; I’ve seen him and heard him speak.

      He was at the Gathering (also in Stirling) at the end of last month. He tweets as @MammothWhale. and seems to be an Economics, History and Politics student at Stirling University.

    93. Gfaetheblock says:

      Liz G,

      You not heard of seed of the gael? Basically Scottish nationalist proto fascists, expelled from the SNP. This is a challenge for AUOB, as if you include all, you include the nutters. Many folk are amazed that SNP office bearers appear on the same march as them.

    94. Dr Jim says:

      The Tory Scum out Banner:

      My brother and I were standing nearby this banner before we set of on the march and one or two people questioned me on it, I explained it was nothing to do with myself or my brother but some other blokes dressed in black (I don’t know if this was meaningful in any way) but the cops we were talking to were also standing chatting to us yards from where it lay on the ground

      If these people have another agenda that’s unpleasant then YES they need to be elbowed and NO not all Tories are scum some of them are just Tories because they are and don’t know any better so for that reason alone if not for the fact that when the media do decide to report on our marches they’ll zoom in on stuff like this in order to distort the main point in order to make a hate point because that’s what the media do and no amount of denials from any of us will make any difference

      There are some Tories now coming over to YES maybe in the hope that in the future their choice of politics will be reflected differently from England in an Independent Scotland, one would hope that might be the case although at present with very unpleasant people like Ruth Davidson Murdo Fraser and other sectarian bigots within that party I doubt we’ll be holding our breaths on that one

      The change in Scotlands politics must be about what we have already been experiencing over the years from the SNP and that’s whatever style of political party you might care to vote for has to be based on democracy and honesty involving the electorate and not the English style power mongering smashing of other views, you can’t run a democracy like that or we’ll end up with exactly what England has now Dictatorship and we don’t like that do we or we wouldn’t be trying to get away from it now

      So the decision to not allow these guys with the extreme banner to take further part I think will be the right one and that’s democracy right there isn’t it, trying to find the middle ground that’s acceptable for the majority of all of the people and to me it shows already where we are as a country pretty much middle of the road *Do the right thing politics* for as many as we can and not be the bad guys

    95. Thepnr says:

      The Tory party is full of nutters and not just a handful either. I’m amazed that Ruth Davidson is in the same party as them. There are too few though to even organise a march, outside of July that is.

    96. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – yes Cameron Archibald is a real person. Stu often retweets his tweets. I’ve just read the open letter and agree that we can’t allow neo fascist groups to promote bigotry and hate. Free speech does not include freedom to intimidate others IMO.

      Difficult situation for the AUOB organisers but not impossible to demand respect to all participants, even Tories.

    97. Meg merrilees says:

      Liz g

      Cameron Archibald is a fine young man – I’ve been out campaigning with him and his dad often drives out to find Cameron, and brings his younger brother out because he wants to campaign with him too.

      He’s involved with one of the Indy broadcast sites and will go far methinks.

    98. Meg merrilees says:

      I posted last night that Stephen Kerr Tory MP for Stirling had honed in on the ‘Tory Scum Out’ banner on his twitter feed.

      What’s worse is that he placed that image next to the one of Bruce Crawford and Keith Brown at the start of the march and asked the question ‘is this what the SNP mean by ‘Civic Nationalism?”

      He also included a photo of some ‘F**k the Tories” mugs that were on sale….

      We are not doing ourselves any favours allowing this banner to be aired.

      Apparently there were Scottish Conservatives for YES marching with us yesterday and my friends who were watching heard a bystander say, “I thought the Tories were for Unionism, I didn’t know they supported YES”.

    99. Luigi says:

      There needs to be some vetting of posters before Indy marches. People turning up with offensive banners should be told in no uncertain terms that they are not welcome.

      A bit of damage done this weekend by one thoughtless individual.

    100. Liz g says:

      To those who kindly replied…
      Thanks for confirming that Cameron is genuinely posting information and isn’t at it…
      I suppose it’s inevitable that we have our own eugenicists (sigh) … I propose extra science classes for an independent Scotland… and as for now we should be reminding them that our founding documents make no such claims as to who can or cannot be Scots…
      Only that it’s for those who live under Scotland’s King and Law… a king we approve of I mind ye!

    101. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – I didn’t know that the offending banner was carried by SnG or that they had any presence at the march. I thought it must be SWP or some other left wing group, i.e. poor taste but expressing a common feeling, perhaps appreciated in the housing estates we walked through.

      Regarding the chants – I think some fresh ideas wouldn’t go amiss. For instance, some people sang “No Union No Cry” to the familiar reggae tune. Happy upfull tunes spread a little laughter and hope.

    102. Ghillie says:

      Keith fae Leith @ 2.47 pm Wellcome and well said =)

      The Bannockburn March looked amazing 🙂 Well done to everyone involved! And I am really looking forward to Edinburgh’s turn on the 6th of October =)

      As for the Times, aye well, they are weird, bitter, and just plain wrong.

      History will mock these rags.

    103. ronnie anderson says:

      Photo’s of Bannockburn March over in Off Topic .

    104. Capella says:

      I made the mistake of listening to Good Morning Scotland for a few minutes this morning. Isobel Fraser did her best to get her guests to address the issues but she spectacularly failed with Lynn Davidson. She is allegedly the Sun Whitehall Correspondent and resides in London.

      For a reminder of how assimilated London Scots can become, have a listen to Lynn explaining that the Scots have made complete fools of themelves by walking out over these 24 petty powers which are all about food labelling and quite insignificant. Simply about common sense. The SNP were annihlated at the last election you know. Down to 20 MPs

      Westminster is dealing with this immense problem called Brexit and what do the Scots do? Embarrass us all by being irritating outsiders. Cringe.

      Starts at 5 mins 35secs. Ms Davidson at 9 mins 40 secs. Ends at 20 mins.

      Compared to her, the other two are intellectual giants. Hamish MacDonald is Political Editor at the Times and Alan Rennie was former editor in chief of Daily Record. Although a poor speaker he showed some good insight into the effect of the past two weeks’ events.

      Sorry I can’t do radio clips:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7mjlv

    105. Breeks says:


      Capella says:
      24 June, 2018 at 10:19 pm

      …Regarding the chants – I think some fresh ideas wouldn’t go amiss. For instance, some people sang “No Union No Cry” to the familiar reggae tune. Happy upfull tunes spread a little laughter and hope…

      I remember a point on the March when people began to sing along to Blooming Heather / Wild Mountain Tyne, and it was a bit rough and ready as spontaneous things often are, but as it caught hold, and the volume swelled, it was actually kinda beautiful and uplifting.

    106. Daisy Walker says:

      I’m back home now and the dug is exhausted.

      Stirling was amazing, huge thanks to all who organised it and to Ronnie and his team for all that they do.

      So proud of me 78 year old Dad, big day for him in the wheelchair.

      Me and my Dad were near the front of the march, we never saw the Tory Scum Banner, but if you have to insult people, you’ve already put yourself on a weak footing for persuading them to your cause.

      We heard, but did not join in with the Tory, Tory, Tory, Out, Out, Out chants, not because we are Tories (never) but because we were there for a bigger reason.

      I keep speaking to people, and since I’m from Perth (tory central in Scotland) a lot of them ar e traditional conservatives (with a small c). Brexshit has them rattled, they are starting to listen, really listen. Most of them are small, medium businesses.

      We need every conversion to YES we can get. Last time out, it was about change or can’t be bothered. This time out its about survival – we sort out Indy, then we pick our corners and choose our flavour of government.

      The bankers austerity crash cut 2% from the UK’s Gross Domestic Product – and thanks to the SNP we are only just beginning to feel it, with more cuts still coming.

      Westminster’s Brexit Impact Analysis shows a
      SOFT Brexit will cut another 2% off GPD, 700,000 job losses 80,000 in Scotland.
      a middling brexit 5%,
      a Hard Brexit 8% – 2,700,000 job losses.

      We are so totally screwed with the above, and no Holyrood Devo Powers to soften the blow.

      All our public services will be gone with the above, they just cannot survive the same amount of cuts again. SNHS, Police Scotland, Fire and Rescue, Social Services, Eductation, going, going, gone.

      Yes We Can, Now We Must … and we will need ALL Hands to help! Including those who traditionally vote tory.

      I was as sore at NO voters last time out as anyone, but we face a much bigger threat this time, and we need for them to be able to get on board to defend their country. The ground and the threat really has shifted that much.

      Well done to all the Polis at Saturday’s event. They can never get the numbers right, and from their perspective too many is better than too few if trouble makers turn up. They were cheery, they were polite, they backed off round the edges when they saw they weren’t needed. Oh, and each one of them has a vote, wonder if we got any of them to go from no to yes with our marvellous behaviour.

      So glad I managed to attend just one march. That one was for Oona.

    107. twathater says:

      @ RJS 6.53 pm , Robert in my response to CA I was being facetious , I am in no way taken in by his concerned (cough )posts . His previous posts intimate that he supports indy buuuuttt not the SNP SG , as has been pointed out numerous times the criticism is focused on the SNP not the imbecilic unionist parties who have ravaged our country

      As I also said further down my post I have experience of these concerned advisors who have the answers to everything but are otherwise too busy or some other excuse to assist or lead developments

    108. Northern Rock says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      Why did you call me a Troll?

      I asked how much has been raised at the THREE marches and where is the money now,

      You go into the deflection tactic and call me a Troll.

      I didn’t see the post with the amount raised in Glasgow, so all you had to do was post the amount up again. But no, you immediately call me a Troll.

      We are fighting to get away from corrupt Westminster politicians, but you and your side kick Brian and coming across as corrupt as them.

      You just seem to get angry every time total amounts are asked for.

      It’s as if you have something to hide. Which is not a good sign.

    109. 95% of Torys voted NO in Indy 1,

      that was from Tory Lord Ashcroft poll,

      that is nearly every single Tory in Scotland voted to stay ruled by Westminster,

      can understand puting the hand of friendship out to the English in Scotland,being English is not a choice,

      but voting for far right wing elitist Tory abominations is a choice,

      the Torys are killing people through their misguided and shameful obsession with austerity.

    110. HandandShrimp says:

      Hi Meg

      I must confess that I thought the Tory Scum out stuff on the Glasgow march was unnecessary. I went on a lot of Union (as in Trade Union) marches and it was a popular chant back then but I don’t think it achieved much. It is an anachronism now.

      We don’t need the Tories out, they are not in power in Scotland. The English need the Tories out but that is for them to decide. Shouting about it in Scotland will achieve nothing. We need to be independent so we can choose the Government we want. Independence in is what we need not a change of Government in Westminster.

      I think old slogans are hard to drop…always feel there is a Maggie Maggie Maggie Out Out Out just waiting to be shouted 🙂

    111. Fireproofjim says:

      Regarding the Tory Scum banner at Stirling. I did not see it but, if it was carried, it was a mark of extreme stupidity and self indulgence by the carriers.
      A poster here says it was carried by a few supporters of the Seed of the Gael organisation, who are an extreme anti-English group. They have been around for some time and about all that can be said for them is that they make all other fringe groups look reasonable, tiny and stupid as they are.
      They have no place in the civic, welcoming, world of the Yes movement and can only taint it by association.
      These parasites should not be allowed to attach themselves to our marches as their bitter hatred is the opposite of what we stand for and can only alienate potential allies.

    112. ahundredthidiot says:

      scot finlayson @ 11:04

      Not sure what your point is.

      I know one tory who voted Yes in 2014 (now passed on) and another four who voted No, Brexit has changed their minds and they are open and vocal about voting Yes next time, and in the meantime, they have switched to SNP as it is the best vehicle to get there.

      What’s wrong with that? But if you are suggesting that them switching back to Tory after Independence (and they probably would) that because of that, somehow you don’t want their votes??

      Well, that would be just nuts.

    113. Effijy says:

      When it comes to distortion of the truth or Westminster parties lying through their teeth to seek office, I recall the Tory Pledge to remove the UK Debt by the end of the parliament 2010-2015.

      You might have noticed that they didn’t.

      Again they promised that in the next parliament that they would do it this time.

      You guessed it, another lie as the UK or the English Parliament as its better known, are the only ones who can borrow money,
      and their outstanding balance growing at £5,170.00 per second
      has now well exceeded £2,000,000,000,000 (Trillion)

      Where has all the money saved from 10 years of Austerity gone.
      Could it have any connection with the gap between the ordinary worker and the uk rich becoming wider and wider.

      Could it have anything to do with the multi Millionaire Politicians like Blair, Brown, Darling, Starmer Smith, May, Johnson, Gove, and Fox.

      To offer a balance on this topic, we are reliably assured by our English Fascist Press that Scotland’s First Minister is so wealthy that she has her own automated coffee maker at home.

      With Brexit looming, no trade deals, rising unemployment, welfare cuts, corporation tax cuts, and completely useless English Politicians, I’m sure Scotland will feel so very lucky to be independent and free of this corrupt cabal.

      http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

      They are going to have to fit a bigger meter wheel on this.

    114. Thepnr says:

      @Daisy Walker

      Very pleased to have finally met you yesterday and well good to see you giving Ronnie and the other volunteers on the Wings stall a big thumbs up.

      Be prepared now though as there will no doubt be somebody along in a minute accusing you of being part of a clique LOL.

      You should check out the link that Ronnie posted on Off Topic with all the photo’s of the march, some great pics and a diverse bunch right enough. Believe me this will have the rats scurrying around Whitehall looking for answers to the Scottish problem.

      They won’t find any they like as Independence is the answer.

    115. Petra says:

      @ Luigi at 9:54pm ……. “Vetting of posters…”

      Spot on Luigi. It stands to reason that these marches will be infiltrated by the equivalent of the “concern trolls” that frequent this site. It also highlights why it would be a bad idea (Keith Brown, Bruce Crawford / Tory Scum Out banner publicity) for Nicola Sturgeon to get involved. Let her get on with the day job / Battle with Westminster and leave the marches to us.

      The AUOB should nip this in the bud and outline (banner) guidelines for future marches, such as no swear words, foul language or offensive remarks. Over and above it losing us support it’s also off-putting for supporters who want to bring their children along.

      If these people genuinely (eh?) want to target the Tories record in office there’s a multitude of data / statistics they can use to plunk on their banners or just stick to “Check out Wings over Scotland site, if you want True Facts.” If they do so they’ll soon get the “measure” of the Tories on here.

    116. Petra says:

      Oh and something else that should be nipped in the bud is the individual who’s constantly making libellous comments about those working at the Wings stall, such as Ronnie and Brian. Why on earth is he / she being allowed to get away with this on here?

      If he’s / she’s so concerned about what’s going on he / she should get off of their butt and make a point of helping out at the stall. What about it Ronnie? I’m sure you could do with an extra pair of hands. Someone else willing to give up a few hours of their time, like yourself, for nought.

    117. Tackety Beets says:

      Via my work I got talking to a couple possibly slightly older than me, circa late 60s with a distinct south of the border twang.
      The conversation became friendly as I had said that I felt they were familiar but unfortunately I couldnt quite place them.

      We have used your business many times over the years, they said etc etc
      Explaining they had been based in Kinloss or Lossie for most of their married life, but had been away for quite some time as their children had grown up and they had moved south to help with gran kids etc

      Then it unfolded, Mrs X had taken ill and it was not good. They looked at their options.

      The lead time for consultancy…….operation ………treatment etc on E NHS was months away.

      Now understandably I did not enquire too deeply & allowed them to impart their situation.

      Mrs X said “We realised we had choices & we quickly decided to return to Scotland……we were able to sell our house, move back to the Highlands, get all my treatment, operations etc done and all clear before my original consultancy date in Engerland NHS”

      What more could I say,TBH I was gobsmacked. Even as I type, I find it hard to believe.

      So anyone working in the Scot NHS , we do have faith in you and believe you do your absolute very best for us all. Our massive thank to you all.

    118. Colin Alexander says:

      I said this weeks ago about anti-Tory chants on a pro-indy march were not helpful. As it’s a pro-indy march, not anti-anybody or any thing.

      Dave McEwan Hill even agreed with me.

      But I think he just did that to try and make me splutter on my cup of tea, at the shock of an SNPer agreeing with something I wrote.

    119. Colin Milne says:

      First post on here although I have been a daily reader since 2013. A couple of thoughts.

      Scottish NHS. I have seen a lot more of this than I would prefer over the last two years, since being diagnosed with prostate cancer.

      The treatment I have received at my local GP’s surgery and at Crosshouse, Irvine and Ayr hospitals has been excellent. I had my prostate removed by state of the art robotic surgery (aka Edward Scissorhands!) at the new Southern General six months ago and am now in follow-up mode with regular check-ups by physio and continence teams.

      My experience of the Scottish NHS is that although the staff are under a lot of pressure due to rising demand, their skill, dedication and quality of care is outstanding, and I owe my life to them.

      I was fortunate enough to be able to speak to Shona Robison at the recent SNP conference to express my gratitude to her for leading such a fantastic service, and to tell her to ignore the opposition politicians calling for her resignation, and to keep up the good work. She was very gracious and clearly touched by my supportive comments.

      AUOB marches. Despite my post-op continence issues, I have been able to take part in both the Glasgow and Bannockburn marches. They were huge, joyous and uplifting experiences and have clearly sent a message to the SNP leadership and the British Nationalists, that there is a massive demand for another independence referendum, and the sooner the better.

      During the Bannochburn march, I talked to one of the cheerleaders who was leading calls for the Tories out. I told him that I had come to support Scottish independence and to commemorate those who fought for it 704 years ago. We were supposed to be all under one banner for that purpose and not to be chanting “Tories out” as this was not the focus of our efforts, and surely we should be persuading them to join us in our inclusive new Scotland.

      He said that it was a tradition to chant Tories out, but my words must have had some effect, because that chant stopped for the rest of the march in my vicinity. I totally agree with the comments on the banner described in previous posts. It has no place on these marches and should be banned by the organisers.

      Finally, much was made by the BBC of the 100,000 marching through London re Brexit yesterday, with only a brief mention of Bannockburn. On a proportionate population basis, (England 58m people, Scotland 5.4m people) the 15,000 on the Bannockburn march was the equivalent of 161,000 in London,and the Glasgow march was the equivalent of 645,000 in London. But proportion and fairness has never been the BBC’s best attribute has it.

    120. Meg merrilees says:

      Interesting programme on Radio 4 this morning – included a review of the newspapers.

      3 commentators, this time one of them was a female journalist from the Daily Record and she chose to highlight the Scottish edition of the Mail on Sunday.
      Can’t remember what the headline was on the English version but she pointed out that the Scottish version was different and was all about terrorists entering the UK from N.Ireland via Scotland.

      Amazed to hear her dismiss the story as ‘The Mail on Sunday is at it again.’

    121. Hamish100 says:

      NORTHERN roCK -YOU ARE A TROLL

      and a boring one at that.

      If you believe there is some issue over cash go to the police but you will have to identify your self.

      Cant have that can we!!

      Personally some of the trolling trotters on here does make the WofSc page less interesting than it used too be but hey thats what the trolls want but They wont win.

    122. Flower of Scotland says:

      I took my Californian granddaughter and my son to the March at Bannockburn and visited old friends at the Wings tent.

      Well done all you folk especially Ronnie. Met smallaxe for the first time so it was a wonderful day for me!

      As for the Times, I’m sort of immune to their witterings but great job by the Rev for those who can read Wings and learn. I refer folk to Wings to get a better view of the bias from our media. It works.

    123. Chick McGregor says:

      Too late for sensible comment tonight, bed calls, so I’ll just leave you with

      The Cyberjock Song

      I’m a Cyberjock in the UK
      I post all night and I work all day.

      I slag Britnats, I eat my lunch
      I go to the lavatree
      On Wednesday I go shopping,
      Have fried Mars Bars for tea.

      Media Chorus:

      He slags Britnats, He eats his lunch
      He goes to the lavatree
      On Wednesday he goes shopping,
      has fried Mars Bars for tea.

      He’s a Cyberjock in the UK
      He posts all night and he works all day.

      I slag Britnats, Tory or SLAB
      I’d like to have full powers.
      I go to Wings conventions
      which hang around in bars.

      Media Chorus:

      He slags Britnats, Tory or SLAB
      He’d like to have full powers.
      He goes to Wings conventions
      Which hang around in bars.

      He’s a Cyberjock in the UK
      He posts all night and he works all day.

      I save dead trees, I read on line,
      Where indy gets fair doos.
      We’ll dump this fucking Union,
      We’ve nothing else to lose.

      Media Chorus:

      He saves dead tree, he reads on line,
      Where indy gets fair doos…..

      [talking]

      Whit’s this? Indy getting fair doos?
      Dump the Union? I should coco. Err…

      [singing]

      He’s a Cyberjock in the UK
      He posts all night and he works all day.

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 23:04,

      There will always be Tories among us, and they will most assuredly all have a vote at the upcoming indyref, so how exactly would you like to influence them to act?

      The name of the game is to win converts, not opponents.

      Are you serious about winning or is it all just about empty virtue signalling? Would you be happiest if every single one of them made sure to turn out and vote against indy, and all because wild talk like this scared and offended them badly with its exclusion and precious self-righteousness?

      I’m not a Tory and never in my life have nor likely ever will vote for them, but I would happily take as many Tory votes for indy as would take us across the winning line.

      In the end, wouldn’t you?

    125. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 22:50,

      Apologies about that, and duly corrected. As is well known, it can sometimes be hard to judge tone from cold text, but since it’s you I should have known better anyway! =grin=

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      Having read the open letter by Cameron Archibald to AUOB, I totally agree with it, and add my voice to those many others on this thread supporting it. He said:

      If we are to take a zero tolerance approach to bigotry then why do we hesitate with a pro-independence group?

      That’s exactly the reason and means they can be banned.

      Are Siol Nan Gaidheal doing more good or more damage for the cause of independence?

      They’re doing harm, but in itself it’s not a reason to ban them, but the bigotry definitely is.

      As for 95% of Tories voting NO in 2014, that was their right. But it needs to be pointed out that right up till 2016 support for the Conservatives in Scotland was around 16%, whereas now it’s around 25% to 30%.

      The YES voting figure amongst Conservative voters could be way different, and many of the others may be convinced because of the Brexit shambles unfolding. And not every Conservative in Scotland wants Holyrood abolished or weakened, in fact from the latest SSAS only 8% of all voters in Scotland do, so that’s another reason for them voting YES next time after the events of the last couple of weeks in Westminster, the disrespect shown to Scotland and our democratically elected represenatives, and the power grab itself.

      I waved at Stirling at 7.10pm on Saturday, on my way back from Stornoway.

    127. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 25 June, 2018 at 2:13 am:

      ” … I’m not a Tory and never in my life have nor likely ever will vote for them, but I would happily take as many Tory votes for indy as would take us across the winning line.
      In the end, wouldn’t you?”

      Yeah! That’s just like what the German people who placated Herr Hitler said pre-1939 – That turned out well then?

    128. Capella says:

      @ Breeks 10.49 – Wild Mountain Thyme would be a great song for the march. There must be a Proclaimers which wouuld fit the bill too, like 500 miles. It needs somebody with a loud voice or a megaphone to start.

      @ HandandShrimp – somebody behind me did start off Maggie Maggie Maggie but it soon fizzled out.

    129. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , the photos are absolutely fantastic – makes you wonder where the photographers from the Scottish media get their training!

      What’s so great about them is the capturing of everyone from nine to ninety smiling!

    130. Abulhaq says:

      SNP rumoured to be backing third runway at Heathrow, part of major capital expenditure in transport planning for the SE England region. why?
      Promises? What value UK gov promises? .

    131. Ken500 says:

      If they support Independence why would anyone be in a Party that will do anything to thwart Independence. Abolish Holyrood, take away powers . Work illegally against Devolution/Independence in every way they can. Tell lies, make illegal dionations. Support policies that hold Scotland back. Ruin the Scottish/UK/world economy for years. Cause hunger and starvation in the world, Kill people. Get away with murder. The corruption is rife. With no censor.

      If you are a member of the Tory Party or other Parties this is the main objective. Why would anyone pussy foot around these people and not call them out. Relatively few that there are, especially in Scotland . The unionists and greens behave like that. They can be self seeking in every way so they can get in power and destroy the economy. Make people’s life harder, cheat and lie. Break oaths given and generally lie and blame others.

      If people support Independence or Devolution they would not be in these Parties or vote for them. It is oxymoron. Why would anyone who supports Devolution or Independence be in these Parties (few) or vote for them. It is quite legitimate to call them out and campaign against their lies, appalling illegal, hypocritical ignorance and total incompetence. To state anything other is just ridiculous.

      They are out to ruin the economy, kill others, often vulnerable people. Behave appallingly. It is quite legitimate to criticise their behaviour. The fact they go into the ballot box and vote for Independence is probably a myth, but it just shows what complete jying hypocrites they can be, To think otherwise is just being deluded. A fatal fantasy.

      The SNP is the only effective one standing up for Scotland and for Devolution /Independence completely and can be likely to deliver. Why would anyone who wants Devolution be in another Party or vote for them. Unless they are deluded. They usually are. It is the main raisin d’etre for these Parties and the people that vote for them. To thwart DevolutionIbdependence. Cheat, lie act illegally. Do anything to stop Scotland get the powers needed to run the economy properly.

      They run Scotland down at every opportunity. Making false statements and accusation. People dying because of them. They often do it to line their own pockets. Multimillionaires on public money. Greedy lazy troughers. Enough is never enough for them. They are despicable. Why anyone woukd pussy foot around them is just incomprehensible.

      They have been at it for nearly 100 years and before, 1928 Universal Suffrage. The outrage is Scotland never got democracy. Instead people mostly no one in Scotland voted for were against it. Secretly and illegally trying to demolish Democracy in Scotland. In every crooked way in the book, because Scottish votes did not count elsewhere. They will if people do not stand up against it. They used secrecy and lies under the Official Secrets Act to try and destroy and harm Scotland and people all over the world. They are appalling people. Calling them out is quite legitimate. Independence/Devolution or otherwise, Deluded, To believe otherwise is to cut off you nose to spite your face. They will get away with it, Time and time again. Pathetic.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Simple,

    132. Silverytay says:

      Ronnie the photos were fantastic
      Especially liked the one with the Yes Larkhall banner
      Never thought I would see that
      If we can get Yes groups in places like Larkhall then things are looking up

    133. Ken500 says:

      Heathrow issue can be brought to Conference discussed and referred back. It will be years. There is still time. With Brexit there will be less need for it in any case. There will be less passengers leaving and arriving. Less traffic.

      Will the Tories last long enough in power to go ahead with it. May and other’s seats are on the intended flight path, That’s why Johnston is against it. Self iterest. Lose votes. Big issue. Arouhd London . Tidally congested. Affects the economy. Scotland has to pay loan repayment interest on the debt. That should be considered on any consequentials dividend.

      Anywhere but Heathrow. It is an appalling spawling nightmare. Increased rail times which could be quicker. That would be better and more cost affective for better, easier comfortable journeys. With good connections. More direct flights from Scotland.

    134. ahundredthidiot says:

      Robert Peffers @ 07:40

      Terrible post RP…….I can only assume you did not follow the thread on that conversation. Not like you.

    135. Clydebuilt says:

      BBC Radio Shortbread 8.30 news bulletin “Nicola Sturgeon to lead Trade mission with 12 Scottish Companies to Germany”

      Was this covered previously, OR only after 8.30 when majority are at work!

    136. Abulhaq says:

      Chris Grayling, the Westminster transport minister, has omitted to give Scotland a voice on the East Coast rail line management. He still expects the SNP to lend vote to Heathrow expansion.
      Scotland must have direct flights from its major airports, not connecting flights via a SE English ‘hub’.

    137. Ken500 says:

      Photos are ace. Thanks Ronnie. Scotland is certainly on the March. More power to the elbow. Hands at the wheel. Hope it continues. The momentum that is gaining. It gives hope and happiness. Confidence, Hope over fear and all that.

    138. Luigi says:

      Abulhaq says:

      25 June, 2018 at 8:20 am

      SNP rumoured to be backing third runway at Heathrow, part of major capital expenditure in transport planning for the SE England region. why?
      Promises? What value UK gov promises? .

      Indeed. If the SNP believe anything at all promised by WM, more fool them.

      Withdraw support immediately.

    139. ronnie anderson says:

      Silvertay & Wingers your most welcome & nobody would expect The Brotherhood & Hackahlumpaff tae be walking in front of a Larkhall banner [ nae fluters an nae drums ] lol.

    140. Ken500 says:

      What’s wrong with stating the obvious. For a lot of people in Scotland. The majority, the Tories are scum. Never mind the faux outrage or attempts at censorship. Stop freedom of speech, That’s what the March is about, The reason for it ultimately. Fool people once, fool people twice. Fool people once again. If people are not careful.

      The Tories regenerated to regurgitate. May/Johnston/Corbyn/McDonnell/Cable/Lucas. Their carrying on at Westminster voting down Scottish powers and not honouring Devolution in any way shape or form. The Parties that they represent and their supporters. Do not be fooled by some false hood if reconciliation. It will not happen. They have form. History shows that. Along with their repeated actions. Fool once, fooled again. Do not let that happen. Breaking oaths and contradictory. Do not be taken in. On false promises.

    141. Glamaig says:

      re Heathrow I dont really care if the SNP support it or not. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. BBC Shortbread were fitting them up nicely this morning by playing a clip of Drew Hendry in 2016 explaining it would benefit Scotland, and some Tory MP (andrew bowie? saying the same. And ‘nobody from SNP available’.

      But following the UK Govs blatant attack on devolution and big ‘f**k you’ to Scotland, theres no way the SNP could support them on anything.

      One of these political conundrums.

    142. Clydebuilt says:

      Ronnie Anderson . . . . Wheres the Off Topic Section keen to see your photos!

    143. ronnie anderson says:

      Petra Its not for nought that the Wings Volunteers man the Wings stall it’s to bring about Independence by promoting Wings over Scotland as the many Wingers who gathered outwith the stall in the early days having conversations in small groups & replying to the many questions asked [ we get very little people asking questions now, that just goes to prove the message & information is being spread by the many Independence supporting Yes Pages & Blogs .

      Flower of Scotland Nice to meet U & your G/Daughter hope she enjoyed the gifts .

    144. Capella says:

      @ Abulhaq – the new LNER east coast line will be run by the staff of Virgin but not the staff of Stagecoach, which will be held to all their commitments, says Chris Grayling:

      Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) managing director David Horne will be in the same role at LNER and all VTEC staff will transfer to the new franchise.

      As a result of the change £8m will be spent on marketing, rebranding, IT systems and staffing, according to LNER.

      … “Stagecoach will be held to all of its contractual obligations in full,” he said.

      The rail companies blamed their problems on Network Rail, saying it had failed to upgrade the line which would have allowed them to run more frequent services.

      Asset stripping? No doubt after a decent interval of time, the line will be reprivatised.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44590366

    145. @RJS,

      see in your `all inclusive world` does that `include` people that disagree with that opinion or any other opinion you have,

      Conservative and Unionist Party,

      see that third word it sort of means you do not support Independence it sort of means you support the Union,

      Tories are murdering scum but agree the banner should not be used at an `All Under One Banner` organised march.

      anyhoo,

      thought all the dugs on the march were brilliant,congrats to all the owners and a thank you to all the residents of Stirling that put out water for the dugs.

    146. Dr Jim says:

      English MPs set to make a law to abolish abusive chanting at gay footballers

      Whereas in Scotland oppositon MSPs (Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green,) approve of chanting abuse at people

    147. fionan says:

      Liz g

      There is a reply from one of the people holding the questionable banner at the past couple fo marchers who says clearly they are not any part of a right wing group, they are ordinary yessers and canvassers from aberdeenshire, who hate the tories and seem th think this expression of hate is acceptable. Obviously this fellow is taking the opportunity to use the banner to harm the YES movement and AUOB as was predicted. Just wait till the msm start [sigh]

    148. Ghillie says:

      Ian Blackford, while ‘watching developments’ over the prospect of another EU vote said that if there were a hard Brexit :

      ‘I think it is clear that if we are out the Single Market and the Customs Union there is a massive threat to our economy, to jobs, to prosperity and I would say on that basis that there is a clear road map towards a second independence referendum that for me would be the priority.’ 🙂

      And also that if the UK Government did not listen to the SNP’s ‘power grab’ concerns over its Brexit legislation, then an independence vote could follow and the Scottish Government had the mandate. 🙂

      (source STV online news)

    149. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee message to Ian Blackford & our SNP MPs at Westmonster

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikMiQZF-mAY

    150. Petra says:

      @ ronnie anderson says at 9:31 am …. ”Petra Its not for nought that the Wings Volunteers man the Wings stall it’s to bring about Independence …..”

      I totally get what you’re all doing at the Wings stall, Ronnie. When I used the word ”nought” I meant that you are doing good works for no financial reward.

    151. fionan says:

      oops sorry re previous post, I see Cameron Archibald seems to be known as a dedicated YES supporter. I shouldnt have been so quick to assume the lady who replied to criticisms of the tory scum banner was the goodie in this case.

      I think that any banner which causes division and offense, and can be used by the msm to discredit the yes movement and damage the reputation of marchers should be banned if the providers of that banner are too selfish and undemocratic to heed the many complaints and remove it.

      So happy though to have seen such a brilliant turnout and such determination to complete the march at Bannockburn. It has been a great success. I wish I could have been there, but hey ho, commitments. Inversneckie here we come! And hopefully Edinburgh in October.

    152. Luigi says:

      The great British East Coast Rail Rip-Off Cycle:
      Here we go again:

      1. Privatise
      2. Asset-strip
      3. Rip-off customers
      4. Bankruptcy
      5. Government take over
      6. Tory cronies walk away with big bonuses
      7. Nationalised – rescue plan – return to profitability
      8. Re- privatise (another opportunity foir a fast buck)

      Rinse and repeat for as long as the electorate accept it. A nice earner for those with the proper connections and a bit of cash to lever. The poor customers (and tax payers) are ripped off at every step along the way.

      These tory capitalist carpet baggers are extracting the urine big time. For how long will the people put up with this? The chancers will continue to run the people and the country down for as long as they can get away with it. They are destroying society so they can line their pockets. Talk about short-sightedness.

    153. Tinto Chiel says:

      Clydebuilt: off topic can be accessed via link in Zany Comedy Relief section below wee black book graphic.

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      @Scot Finlayson: “Tories are murdering scum but agree the banner should not be used at an `All Under One Banner` organised march.

      Personally I think that’s completely fair and reasonable. You have your own opinion, but it is a bit extreme for an AUOB march.

      It is a bit of a warning for those of us that post elsewhere (which is just about all of us one way or another). We do go “over the top” at times, and I know I have about the Tories. Sometimes I just see red about something or other they do or say, but it doesn’t help convert NOes to YES. And there are a good few Conservatives for YES, and the more, the better. Not every Conservative is a Tory 🙂

    155. Thepnr says:

      @Clydebuilt

      Ronnies link on Off Topic can be found here.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-68/#comment-2371903

    156. ronnie anderson says:

      Petra I did know what you meant. We are the sum of the many who contribute greatly to the Independence cause in so many way’s & long may that continue .

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      @fionan
      Yes, it is of course all under ONE banner.

      So to do this positively, AUOB could approve banners, and only those banners are allowed, others can be removed by stewards. A bit of work, but then there should only really be one type of banner anyway in a ONE banner march, even if it has different varieties.

    158. Dr Jim says:

      *Tories out* would be a perfectly respectable political statement referencing the politicians but the *scum* part we don’t need even though there are some who are, by the same token we have some fools on our side of the fence too, so the name calling misses the mark unless you can justify a person or incident on which to apply it, and there aren’t banners big enough for that, so general insults to one and all don’t serve the purpose perhaps that the user first might have thought when he/she wrote it

      *There are some exremely unpleasant and naughty people in the Tory party* I would suggest would attract more people for the humour of the statement rather than the *scum* stuff

      *Tory politicians behave very badly* or *Down with that sort of thing*

      I’m quite sure many Tory and Labour voters don’t foresee some of the things their elected representatives get up to then put their own voters in the difficult position of having to defend their actions because they voted for them, I know one or two folk who vote for my team who do it for entirely the wrong reasons and purposes

      It’s mostly the politicians who are the baddies here

      (except for the headcase element that every society has, they’re unsavable)

    159. Meg merrilees says:

      Capella @ 7.46

      I was at the back of the march and we had no pipers – but we were the ones singing Wild Mountain Thyme, and we sang 500 miles as we trudged up Coxethill Road – man pushing the indy pram which had a music system in it was providing the tracks.

      Think he was English Scots for Yes?

      Maybe we need more pipers and is so, could we spread them out through the ‘cortege’.

    160. mark whittet says:

      Dear Editor,

      This Times headline is so pro-lapsed it’s almost obscene.

      The headline should have been; “Nearly half of Scots think the NHS has improved and/or stayed the same under the SNP (47%)

      Instead, contorting itself into an-SNP twist, the headline instead focuses on the weaker/ losing proposition; “Fewer than half Scots think NHS has deteriorated’

      This is like reporting a football match as; “Tiny Tunisia broke their own World Cup record by scoring a goal’

      when the real (by fictional) result is this: Brazil trump Tunisia with brilliant Nyemar hat-trick’…

      It’s perverse.

      http://www.SIRP.Scot
      Mark [at] SIRP [dot] Scot

    161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 07:40,

      I do wish you would read what people actually write and inwardly digest before committing your hasty reactions to cold text. I was not advocating voting Tory, you quick-draw blusterer.

      There will still be Tories anyway in an independent Scotland, unless you’re proposing some kind of “final solution” of your very own. Duh.

      What I was saying, for the slow of uptake, is that we need every vote possible for indy, and I want as many people as possible – Tories included – to vote for it.

      So we win.

      I didn’t put you down as just another game-playing virtue-signalling fool, but you could be proving me wrong…

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 09:39,

      I noticed that you artfully dodged my fundamental point, and just played a cute little word game instead.

      (And since you evidently haven’t noticed, not everyone who votes Tory is a member of the party, or a hardline Unionist either.)

      Just like me, the indy movement in general is inclusive, and proud of it as well.

      Here’s the ultimate question, when we get down to it: do you want every vote possible for indy or don’t you…?

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS “I do wish you would read what people actually write and inwardly digest before committing your hasty reactions to cold text

      One of the reasons I can’t be bothered except for something important like the “scum” thing. It’s easier replying to or being replied to by Unionists, at least you know they’re on the other side and you can be as hard as nails, or soft as velvet, or just totally ignore it. Being done in by your own side or mixed up with a troll just does my head in and takes away any enjoyment in posting here.

    164. Clydebuilt says:

      Tinto Chiel and Thepnr . . . . . Thanks

    165. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Just catching up.

      Welcome aboard @Colin Milne says 25 June, 2018 at 12:28 am

      Great 1st post, don’t make it your last.

      🙂



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