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Wings Over Scotland


On the other hand

Posted on July 24, 2020 by

Alert readers will probably have noticed that earlier today we featured a post by SNP MP Kenny MacAskill making the seemingly-unsurprising statement that the purpose of his party is to “bring about the end of the British state”.

So we thought he might have wanted to check with his colleague Stewart McDonald, the SNP’s defence spokeman and an obsessive Russophobe, when we saw a snide quote from him in a Belfast Telegraph story disparaging former leader Alex Salmond (who’d advocated the reunification of Ireland during a chat with ex-Taoiseach Bertie Ahern) for the heinous crime of “proposing the disruption of the United Kingdom”.

It later transpired that there’d been an error and the quote should have been (and now is) attributed to a Scottish Conservatives spokesman.

But we couldn’t help noticing the complete lack of shock with which the comment was received on social media in the several hours between its publication and correction, as if nobody thought it at all implausible that McDonald would have said such a thing. (And indeed, it’s barely different from what he HAS said about Salmond’s RT show.) There were plenty harsh criticisms of him, but we didn’t see a single tweet suggesting that a mistake might have been made.

Never more so than in 2020, sometimes fiction is more believable than truth.

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    90 to “On the other hand”

    1. Corrado Mella says:

      Old McDonald had a farm…
      EEa-eea-yoo…

      As I said, the BritNazi Establishment has placed its time ticking bombs inside the SNP a long time ago.

      They’re all to go off between now and December.

    2. defo says:

      No prizes for guessing which side of the good guy/wank division SM walks through.

      He thinks he’s in the big league, and the likes of us aren’t a danger to his cosy life.

    3. Astonished says:

      Shouldn’t he just sue ? Yoons get away with this on a regular basis.

      Very few folk read the corrections and the smear of Mr Salmond will remain.

    4. Robert Sinclair says:

      As I understand, this is not true. Stewart McDonald has said that he didn’t give a quo the tithe Belfast Telegraph

    5. call me dave says:

      He twitters:
      A tame riposte: 🙁

      “I have been made aware of a quote that was wrongly attributed to me by the Belfast Telegraph – a story I was never asked to comment and did not offer to comment on. They have been in touch to apologise and will correct the article concerned”.

    6. CameronB Brodie says:

      call me dave
      I’d suggest it’s a rather good response, as it’s not political so will appeal to non-supporters. That’s my take anyway. An apparent abuse of the truth by the right-wing media, has been committed though, no doubt with the intention of sowing doubt in the indy cause.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      Not completely inaccurate Rev. McDonald told the Times that public figures appearing on RT were only promoting Russian propoganda.

      I can’t ever remember RT criticising Scotland in isolation, but I do remember them criticising the UK and Wextminster.

      McDonald doesn’t seem to like thzt.

    8. Clapper57 says:

      Mr McDonald does realise that independence for Scotland is also a supposed SNP “active proposition” that would lead to a “disruption of the United Kingdom”…..or is that a plan that he thinks might help Russia and harm the UK ?

      If I have it wrong then someone could at least tell him to stop speaking as a BritNat “useful idiot” in the context of promoting and defending the UK’s interests and start speaking in the context of promoting and defending Scotland’s interests…one being for Scotland to be independent from the UK…….just a thought…..one shared by many.

    9. call me dave says:

      I might be wrong, but for me, I’d have expected just wee bit of indignation… but he played it with a straight bat. Fair enough!

    10. CameronB Brodie says:

      call me dave
      It’s not always easy to umpire from the outfield. 😉

    11. Gary45% says:

      Not much to say about Stewart McDonald, as I will be accused of being Anti-Semitic. SNP defence spokesperson, friend of the Israel, says it all.
      If he was my SNP politician, I would spoil my vote.

    12. SilverDarling says:

      Ha! He isn’t worried people would actually think that is his opinion given his previous statements?

      He is probably more upset that he was misnamed and not asked for an opinion.

      Did he actually disagree with the Tory opinion though?

    13. Muscleguy says:

      McDonald seems to have gone native down there. Either that or his brief as defence spokesman has caused him to be infected with the British military virus.

      It seems to me he would not pass the SNP’s candidate screening process these days or at least you would hope he wouldn’t.

      What with Nicola going all ‘Devoloution is as far as I’ll go’ it appears that the party is about to split. Not down the L-R axis but between those who actually want independence and those who are not much fussed thanks this gravy train is doing fine.

    14. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gary45%
      Really, the SNP is linked to the friend of the Israel? Offs, what sort of clown-shoes party has the SNP become? Contemporary British nationalism shares many of the most unpleasant characteristics displayed by racist nationalists involved in Israeli politics and statecraft.

      Javnost – The Public
      Journal of the European Institute for Communication and Culture Volume 26, 2019 – Issue 1

      Positioning “the people” and Its Enemies: Populism and Nationalism in AfD and UKIP

      Abstract
      Much previous research on right-wing populist parties in Europe has concentrated on what they share, and has failed to problematise the term “populist.” This article sets out from one proposed distinction between populism and nationalism, comparing the discourses of two relatively under-researched parties: Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) and the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP).

      Analysis of the way these two parties operationalise both a vertical (populist) and horizontal (nationalist) axis brings out some differences, as well as major areas of overlap. The conclusions suggest that such parties activate hostility to elites (populism) in order to destabilise the political landscape, while boosting support for anti-migrant and anti-EU stances (nationalism).

      The vertical axis is particularly powerful because it exploits pre-existing sources of resentment or suspicion and enables the people to be positioned as “victims,” thereby legitimating their attacks on “others” who threaten the people’s space.

      KEYWORDS:
      populism, nationalism, political discourse, discourse analysis

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13183222.2018.1531339

    15. Dan says:

      Muscleguy says: at 6:04 pm

      It seems to me he would not pass the SNP’s candidate screening process these days or at least you would hope he wouldn’t.

      Vetting standards and “acceptable” behaviour within the SNP may vary depending who you are… 😉

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/two-woke-princes

    16. Gary45% says:

      Cameron@6.05
      Any party can do/support whoever they like, on a personal situation, I expect the person who I put in parliament to have a moral backbone when it comes to “cosying up to” a corrupt government who are guilty of war crimes, genocide etc, the list goes on.
      I appreciate all the other parties are the same,although I expect the SNP to be better than the rest when it comes to human rights etc.
      Am I delusional? probably yes.

    17. Andy Ellis says:

      Like many other “malcontents” as I see we’re termed by Sturgeonistas in BTL comments here, I’d find it very hard to vote for someone as odious as Stewart McDonald. There are a number of other individuals in the SNP I can now say that of…Alyn Smith, Mairi Black, Jon Nicolson, Pete Wishart for starters.

      I’d sooner spoil my ballot.

    18. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gary45%
      I don’t think you’re delusional in the slightest. 😉

      Remember, Scotland can be considered a ‘scientific community’, as our culture articulates a Scottish understanding of reality. This is a perspective British constitutionalism wishes to silence and exclude from British politics.

      Collective Epistemic Responsibility:
      a Preventionist Account

      Abstract
      If a given scientific community faces an epistemic harm that could be prevented only by a collective action, what kind of epistemic duties fall on each of the given scientists? In this paper we propose an account of collective epistemic responsibility, which addresses this and related questions.

      Building on Hindriks’ (2018) account of collective moral responsibility, we introduce the Epistemic Duty to Join Forces as a norm consisting of two sub-norms: first, a duty of individuals to approach other relevant agents raising awareness about the epistemic harm, expressing willingness to prevent it, and encouraging others to do the same; and second, a duty of those who have expressed their commitment to join forces, to prevent the given epistemic harm.

      We argue that our account has a distinctly epistemic character, irreducible to the accounts of collective moral responsibility. As such, it fills an important gap in the literature on epistemic responsibility. In contrast to previous accounts of epistemic responsibility, which have been concerned with the conditions of responsible belief formation and holding, our approach concerns responsibility for other kinds of performances, specifically those aimed at preventing epistemic harms.

      http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/17003/1/Fleisher_Seselja_Collective-ep-resp.pdf

    19. david cox says:

      You are awful, but we like you 😉

    20. Josef Ó Luain says:

      @Dan

      The inability to support oneself financially has seen-off more than a few otherwise good candidates before now.

    21. Sensibledave says:

      Well at least I spotted, and commented upon, Mr MacAskill’s comment in the article.

    22. OldPete says:

      Philippa Whitford is a superb SNP MP and the constituency I live in is lucky to have her.
      The SNP have a lot of good members and representatives, maybe some on this site should remember that. Also without the SNP we would have had zero chance of having the 2014 referendum and zero chance of ever having another.

    23. Newburghgowfer says:

      I was hoping at last election that this Bozo would lose his seat with a number of his chums. After all the SNP at Westminster have achieved diddlysquat since 2014.
      Apart from Joanne C, Angus Mc, Drew H I dont rate the weak shower we have in Westminster

    24. Andy Ellis says:

      @Old Pete

      You are right that there are many superb representatives like Whitford, Cherry etc. However, like any other “mass” movement it sadly has its share of mediocrities and downright liabilities as recent event have shown.

      Similarly, whilst there are many wonderful folk in the party, there are some I wouldn’t cross the road to piss on if they were on fire. Such is life.

      From the point of view of many of us who have become disillusioned with the party, including many former members like me, it’s increasingly evident that the gradualist leadership of the SNP and their misguided policy direction make #indyref2 before 2039 a remote possibility.

      You may well disagree with that assessment, but if so, tell us your plan to deliver independence in the short to medium term, preferably without reference to Pete Wishart style magical thinking.

    25. liz says:

      Part of the problem there is McDonald has at least half of the pro indy supporters blocked.

      Sp probably few people were aware he said it.
      Craig Murray called him MI5s man

    26. Papko says:

      The issue of Britain was not really covered in 2014.
      “Yes” was all about building a more equal fairer society and Scotland would need to do this on her own as the rest of the country out-voted us.

      The YES movement is a broad Church and some indeed see the greatest benefit from Independence as being the dismantling of the British state, much as an Irish Republican might.

      Which is a tacit admission that the “utopia” would soon turn mundane.

      Far more likely to happen is “independence” becomes a re-imagining of devolution, with increased powers and shared institutions, like the central bank, the DVLA and the Defence.

    27. bipod says:

      Another interesting article from the cebm on facemasks and the lack of supporting evidence:

      https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/

      Dithering nicolas facemask policy is a power play based superstition rather than falsifiable evidence. Like so many things during this “pandemic” it is driven by fear and hysteria, rather than scientific evidence.

    28. James Che. says:

      This Russia by association rhetoric to Scotland or people in its government past or present is purposeful,
      The USA are building up against china( they tried Russia associating in America already), and they have now moved on,
      The uk have been building up to the evil Russia talk for a few years now, even if behind the scenes they pocket Russian money.
      The point of all this rhetoric and blustering is to get the brittish public into a mind set whereby the “Great Britain” That was, will go to war and make more money on wars and weapons at the risk to human kind as they have done in the past, eliminating countries and people who get in their way, this plan against Russia and China has been a long term plan. Henry Kissinger mentions it in an interview way back in 2017 I think it was.
      The point is if they can suggest Scottish associations to Russia, then they think the public in Britain will be ok with attacking ordinary people in Scotland,
      And to be honest, if they are going to inflate another war with any body, after the Iraq supposed weapons of mass destruction that turned out to be false, and caused terror attacks on the brittish people, I definitely do not want our country to be a part of it, we need independence more than ever.

    29. Republicofscotland says:

      I doubt this would fit in with McDonalds Russophobic stance.

      The finger pointing at Russian hacking is all head turning nonsense, since the Skripal event, that doesn’t hold water, the British government has licenced over £200 million pounds worth of dual-use exports to end users in Russia. The items are defined as useable as civil or military application. In 2019 alone British ministers approved 609 export licences to Russia for goods on its controlled list, including cyber defence equipment.

      European sanction forbid such exports to Russia which can be used for military purposes, Johnson has refused to make public a parliamentary report on the matter. On the other hand the British government only granted two controlled licences to Syria in 2019. Trade minister Liz Truss, who oversees the export of controlled goods has been pictured with the wife of Russian oligarch Vladimir Chernukhin who reportedly gave the British Conservative party their biggest ever single donation of £1.7 million pounds.

      Former head of MI6 Richard Dearlove even went as far as to say that his spy agency helped get Putin elected in 2000. MI6 is said to have instructed then British PM Tony Blair to attend an opera in St Petersburg with Putin, and that shortly afterwards Putin was elected as Russian president.

      In 2003 Blair invited Putin to the UK the first Russian premier to visit the UK since 1864, at the time Russia was engaged in the brutal suppression of Chechnyan nationalists forces in Chechnya.

    30. Paul says:

      RepublicofScotland; Kruschev visited uk in 1956 and was very much premier of Russia, as was, at that time.

    31. Tom says:

      from Martin Kettle, on the security services, in The Guardian today:

      “Consider the following highly topical example. The potential break-up of Britain that might have resulted from the 2014 Scottish referendum is axiomatically not in the interest of the UK and is also a major problem for UK national security. It therefore has to be a concern to MI5, not least because breaking up the UK is obviously also in the interest of a hostile power such as Russia. The large political constraint is obvious. A majority in Scotland could have voted for it – and may yet do so. The agencies’ role here is obviously immensely delicate, but it is hard to argue that they should just do nothing.”

    32. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @bipod (8.05) –

      I rarely comment these days but just wanted to say that many of us respect you and others who have made an effort to remind readers of legitimate criticism re hysteria surrounding this accursed bug.

      This morning, on GMS, some dude was banging on about how being fat can make you more vulnerable. Before long we’ll have Sir Jason Leitch (cause he’s now a shoo-in for a major gong, right?) interrupting Off The Ball to warn us to avoid nose-pickers, arse-scratchers, and clatty-lookin fuckers generally. As if we don’t already.

      And for those who are getting irate and preparing to send an enraged response to this comment, please be aware that I honestly don’t give a solitary flying fuck what you say – heard it all months ago, quite a lot of it right here. Believe whatever the fuck you like – if you really want to waste the rest of your time on this mortal plane cursing people who didn’t wear masks in Tesco because your 93-yr old granny died and Covid appeared somewhere on the certification, go ahead.

      Have a pleasant evening one and all!

      😉

    33. jfngw says:

      For the deluded that feel over 50K died of nothing and face masks are nonsense. Possibly the earth may even be flat.

      https://www.thelocal.ch/20200715/only-those-with-plastic-visors-were-infected-swiss-government-warns-against-face-shields

    34. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @jfngw –

      Do you really expect anyone to click on a link after you’ve introduced it like that?

      🙂

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      You don’t appear to realise or care you are supporting someone who lacks scientific or medical training, yet who is ideologically opposed to public health ethics.

      All that report does is highlight the uncertainty and political nature of the face-mask issue. A precautionary, preventative, approach is the ethically rational strategy to adopt in such absence of certainty, though the report fails to acknowledge this.

    36. Willie says:

      There’s more than a few SNP MPs swanking it down in Westminster.

      No longer committed to independence they treat their electors like fodder. For then a paid sinecure, the right to status, the right to a fine wage and a fine pension. Crikey, one of them even wanted to be the Speaker!

      But they are not all like that, and neither are all of the members like that either. Many of us want independence, and if these bottom feeders do not reform their ways then we will select others. These bloated comfortable troughers do not have a god given right to the well paid sinecures that they currently hold.

      Change is coming, Independence is coming back on the agenda, and if these people continue as they are doing, then they will be obliterated as a new party will take their place. Next year’s SP elections will I predict see the emergence of an Indy List party, and from that point on things change utterly. From that point on no room for the SNP complacent and comfortable.

    37. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      My comment was a note of appreciation to bipod and I’ll support whoever I like.

      I’m not rising to the bait tonight Cam – quite frankly, I can’t be bothered with your shitery any more sah!

      😉

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Well it looks as if I give you too much benefit of the doubt, I really didn’t think you were a stroker.

    39. dakk says:

      Ian b

      I seldom comment on here now, but, outrageous sir 🙂

    40. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Aaaah, the banter!!!

      🙂

    41. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Ian B @ 21:31

      Belter!

    42. Ahundredthidiot says:

      1 death in 15 days, if we have 3 tomorrow, it’ll be DEATH SPIKE OF 300% IN SCOTLAND – SHUT THE FUCKING PLANET DOWN!!

    43. Ahundredthidiot says:

      This reaction to COVID makes about as much sense as convex shaped helmet visors in a vacuum

      (loonballs going mental…. any moment…. now)

    44. Ian Brotherhood says:

      From btl comments on Wee Ginger Dug:

      Mark Russell says:
      July 24, 2020 at 1:22 pm
      O/T but I think you should be aware. I’m in England and subject to a different testing system.

      Just had a phone call – No Caller ID – from the NHS Test & Trace advising me I’ve been in contact with a covid +ve case and I need to isolate immediately for 7 days and complete a test that will be sent to me in the next 3 days.

      They had my address and postcode – but also asked me for £58.95 for an administration fee (refundable) and a debit card number.

      No I didn’t.

      It’s hardly surprising people are not complying presently, but this kind of scam has deadly potential.

      Be aware.

    45. CameronB Brodie says:

      When exactly did practical scientific, legal, and political advice become “shitery”?

    46. Jimmy Jo says:

      The SNP stumble from one crisis of their own making to another.

      Bad leadership, bad selection process, bad direction.

      Will Sturgeon move on, it’s up to those closest to her.

    47. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      I’d love to hang around and chat but I’m proofreading a very promising novel right now, entitled ‘Crivens! The Empress Has Baws!’

      It’s a satire. (Well, kind of…)

      😉

    48. Pete says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Loved your post.
      Straight from the heart.
      Wife and I out tonight at our favourite restaurant,
      Some semblance of normal life.
      However, all the staff done up like Lone Ranger and Tonto.
      Very off putting.
      Don’t know if it’s required or not but I do NOT like it.
      I see that the average death rate is now lower than normal which means that most of the folk who were due to expire were brought forward a few weeks earlier than scheduled.
      This whole business is utter madness.
      What’s the point.
      Nicola -gtf.

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      My argumentation technique might not be to everyone’s taste but I’d have hoped I might have convinced folk that my judgement is reasonably sound. I’ve been assertive in making my points but I’m in no position to force a scientific world-view on anyone, though it is kind of essential to ethical constitutional practice. It is also vital to supporting public health, which I have been doing my best to advocate for.

      So I don’t think “shitery” is sufficiently accurately descriptive of my rather rusty practice.

      A CASE FOR EPISTEMIC AGENCY

      ABSTRACT:
      This paper attempts to answer two questions: What is epistemic agency? And what are the motivations for having this concept? In response to the first question, it is argued that epistemic agency is the agency one has over one’s belief-forming practices, or doxastic dispositions, which can directly affect the way one forms a belief and indirectly affect the beliefs one forms.

      In response to the second question, it is suggested that the above conception of epistemic agency is either implicitly endorsed by those theorists sympathetic to epistemic normativity or, at minimum, this conception can make sense of the legitimacy of the normative notions applicable to how and what one should believe.

      It is further contended that belief formation in some respects is a skill that can be intentionally developed and refined. Accepting this contention and the existence of certain epistemic norms provide inconclusive yet good reasons to endorse this concept. Recent challenges to this concept by Hillary Kornblith and Kristoffer Ahlstrom-Vij are also considered.

      KEYWORDS:
      belief formation, belief control, epistemic agency, epistemic normativity

      https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/131204935.pdf

    50. Fireproofjim says:

      Liz@7.15
      He didn’t actually say it. It was a Tory. Read the article. The Telegraph apologised to him.

    51. CameronB Brodie says:

      ffs….isn’t sufficiently….

    52. jfngw says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      It was no more dismissive than your own comment, which in effect was ‘I have my own views if you disagree you can just fuck off’.

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was right the first time, though I don’t talk like that and I’m flitting between jobs, so I was uncertain.

    54. cirsium says:

      Thanks for that interesting article, bipod (8.05). I have followed this topic since the shutdown and noted the references to face mask inadequacies
      From June 2020, wearing masks will not reduce SARS-CoV-2 American physicians https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/
      From June 2020, perspective from theatre nurse https://www.sott.net/article/436447-Masked-Threats-Studies-Reveal-NO-Benefits-to-Global-COVID-19-Facemasks-for-all-Policy
      This dates from October 2016 – https://web.archive.org/web/20200618031535/https://www.oralhealthgroup.com/features/face-masks-dont-work-revealing-review/

    55. Jimmy Jo says:

      The Yes Movement activists are drifting aimlessly through life.

      To the majority of true Indy believers, our fight for Independence meant everything.

      And the way Sturgeon is treating us is absolutely sickening.

      That is why many of us are angrily hitting back, because we seem to be able to see the crisis that is about to land at Scotland’s front door and Sturgeon doesn’t.

    56. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      If you find yourself at a loose end, why not pop ‘Pierre Nkurunziza’ into your ACME link machine and see what comes out?

      😉

    57. CameronB Brodie says:

      cirsium
      My reading of the those didn’t undermine my confidence that there is a significant public health risk at large. If anything, they suggested to me that face-masks might not be adequate to protecting us if we relax social distancing too soon. I’m I missing the evidence that face-masks undermine rather than support public health? We don’t all enjoy the immune systems dentists can boast.

      Ian Brotherhood
      What’s your point, are you deliberately trying to goad me now? Care to explain your meaning and intention for the non-clairvoyant?

    58. shug says:

      It looks like the Russians did interfere in the Scottish Referendum and at the invitation of the English.

      Next time we must ensure there is no influence from foreign governments.

      It is for the people of Scotland to decide.

      https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13140055.camerons-plea-to-putin-help-me-stop-salmond/

    59. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Fireproofjim
      “He didn’t actually say it. It was a Tory. Read the article. The Telegraph apologised to him”.

      That’s irrelevant to the “malcontents” Fpj. As far as they are concerned, he “might” have said it which means they can criticise him as if he “had” said it …. even though he “didn’t” say it.

      In order to understand this, you first have to get your head around the proposition that by destroying Nicola Sturgeon and fataly damaging the SNP you will increase the chances of bringing about independence. It’s bonkers I know but there you go.

      You would think the fact that half the posts on this nominally pro-indy thread would not look out of place on a unionist site would raise some eyebrows concerning this “strategy” …. but no, they bash on regardless. Heedless of the damage it can/will do to the cause of Scottish independence, just as it is gaining real traction, and the succour it gives to the unionists who are currently practically resigned to independence being inevitable.

    60. CameronB Brodie says:

      Me Bungo Pony
      You might have a point if Scotland was not already out of the EU, with no viable signs of sorting out this (il)legal subjugation.

    61. OldPete says:

      Andy

      The SNP, Greens and any other supporters of Scottish Independence need to fight the election next year putting Independence front and centre dragging the anti-Scottish UK Tories, Labour and LibDem parties into a constitutional dogfight. The Britnat party’s won’t want this, the media won’t want it either and they will all want to fight it on Fishing, Care homes, Council budgets anything whatsoever but Scotlands right to Independence. But we have to make it about taking back total control of our economy our health our education our law our borders our life, a kind off “take back control” or “make Scotland stronger” I am sure someone can come up with a more memorable one liner to drive home continually the message.

      Then on polling night 50%+1 of constituency votes for Independence supporting parties after the election next year and Nicola should phone up BoJo that morning.
      The phone call ; once the result is confirmed “she the FM of Scotland having been given by the sovreign people of Scotland the democratic authority to start negotiations with the English government on Scotland’s withdrawal from the United Kingdom ” from there we should take no longer than one year to rap up all the loose ends.

      Might need a bit of work but surely we have in great abundance people smart enough and strong enough to see this thing through and certainly folk much better than a retired old man from Prestwick.

    62. Mags says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      I haven’t worn a muzzle in tesco or anywhere and will not be wearing one ever. Never believed any of this BS from day one, only the imbeciles believe it.

    63. schrodingers cat says:

      @oldpete
      i’d prefer an immediate declaration of independence, the discussions regarding the settlement can follow on after.

      it would also free us to immediately to ask the efta countries for immediate membership.

      one of the 1st things we would do is build the new cu/sm border between us and england. and remove the same border between us and NI

    64. K1 says:

      ‘18th July 202

      Oxford COVID-19 study:

      face masks and coverings work – act now
      CORONAVIRUSRESEARCH

      Cloth face coverings, even homemade masks made of the correct material, are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 – for the wearer and those around them – according to a new study from Oxford’s Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science.

      A comprehensive study, the report investigates the effectiveness of different face mask types and coverings, including an international comparison of policies and behavioural factors underlying usage.

      Professor Melinda Mills, Director of the Leverhulme Centre and author of the study, says, ‘The evidence is clear that people should wear masks to reduce virus transmission and protect themselves, with most countries recommending the public to wear them. Yet clear policy recommendations that the public should broadly wear them has been unclear and inconsistent in some countries such as England.’

      Professor Mills’ team found that, after the WHO announced the pandemic in mid-March, some 70 countries immediately recommended mask wearing. But more than 120 now require mask wearing – most, everywhere in public.

      Asian countries that had previous experiences of the SARS outbreak experienced early and virtually universal mask usage. But, says Professor Mills, many other countries have seen a reversal of behaviour. She maintains, ‘There is a general assumption that countries such as the UK, which have no culture or history of mask wearing, will not rapidly adopt them. But this just doesn’t hold when we look at the data. As of late April, mask-wearing was up to 84% in Italy, 66% in the US and 64% in Spain, which increased almost immediately after clear policy recommendations and advice was given to the public.’

      The study was prompted by the need for a comprehensive systematic literature review of mask wearing – beyond medical research. Professor Mills maintains, ‘There has been a blind spot in thinking about the behavioural factors of how the general public responds to wearing masks. Also, by looking at lessons learned about face mask wearing from previous epidemics and other countries, we get a broader and clearer picture.’

      The study found:…’

      https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now

    65. Joe says:

      RE: Covid

      https://www.dictionary.com/browse/terrorism

      Terrorism[ ter-uh-riz-uh?m ]

      Noun
      1- the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
      2- the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
      3- a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

    66. schrodingers cat says:

      Ronnie Cowan MP @ronniecowan · Jul 23
      Good to see the @YesInverclyde shop is open again. Things are stirring. The natives are getting restless and there is a campaign looming.

      Get informed, be prepared, it’s going to be one hell of a ride.#indyref2

    67. schrodingers cat says:

      @mags

      you can calculate the curvature all you want, but that just makes you look desperate

      🙂

    68. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think that’s Joe’s attempt to employ fear, with the aim of undermining coherent public health measures. In other words, pitting the people against government and undermining the potential for pro-social action. Of course, I could be wrong.

      Javnost – The Public
      Journal of the European Institute for Communication and Culture Volume 24, 2017 – Issue 4: Populism and Nationalism: Constructing and Representing ‘the People’ as Underdog and Nation, Guest Edited by Benjamin De Cleen and Yannis Stavrakakis

      Distinctions and Articulations: A Discourse Theoretical Framework for the Study of Populism and Nationalism
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13183222.2017.1330083

    69. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Fuckin brilliant intit?

      You really couldn’t make it up.

      We’re meant to be fellow travellers, aiming for the same destination.

      We’ve been here for months now, getting angry, falling out over whether or not we should strap bits of paper over our gobs when we go to the shops.

      And in the meantime?

      ‘Bezos, Amazon’s 56-year-old founder and the world’s richest person, has seen his fortune swell $74 billion in 2020 to $189.3 billion, despite the US entering its worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.’

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      http://www.hindustantimes.com/business-news/jeff-bezos-adds-record-13bn-to-wealth-in-one-day-74bn-this-year/story-ieVKkeCDVfAy8V1KnUG5uK.html

    70. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Mags (12.07) –

      More power to ye.

      For shame, I have donned the head-paper, several times in the past week or so, because I am, fundamentally, a coward, and I hate myself for it.

      It’s more to do with simple shyness, fear of confrontation, disapproval etc, and that’s deep-seated psychological fodder.

      And that’s precisely why this whole fuckin scam is so effective.

      We’re being played, big-time.

      I despair.

    71. Dogbiscuit says:

      Cameron you’re not a lawyer you’re not a scientist and you’re not a politician so why should anyone take your advice?
      K1 with a carefully selected ‘study’ to back up a fascist Government.If the masks are effective why was no one ordered to wear them in April? Surely that would have been a better time for masks?
      The fact is we are being softened up for mandatory dubiously tested vaccines from Astra Zeneca.
      Are you comfortable helping Sturgeon herd the Scots for a vaccination like cattle?

    72. Dogbiscuit says:

      K1 there are other ‘studies’ that flatly contradict your Government scientists.

    73. Dogbiscuit says:

      Cameron do you always defer to power?

    74. Dogbiscuit says:

      I refuse to wear a face mask. A jihadi scarf would be more fun.

    75. K1 says:

      ‘…Crucially, the report also finds that wearing a cotton mask protects the mask wearer as well – combining all research on cloth masks in a new meta-analysis. But the report finds that face covering policy has been impacted by a lack of clear recommendations, likely because of an ‘over-reliance on an evidence-based approach and assertion that evidence was weak due to few conclusive RCT (randomized control trial) results in community settings, discounting high quality non-RCT evidence’.

      Professor Mills insists this should not be the sole consideration, ‘RCTs don’t fit well when looking at behaviour and it was clear that high quality observational and behavioural research had been largely discarded. It is hard to understand why the policy resistance has been so high. There have been no clinical trials of coughing into your elbow, social distancing and quarantine, yet these measures are seen as effective and have been widely adopted.’

      By learning from mask-wearing experiences from previous epidemics, such as SARS, H1N1 and MERS, today’s review revealed five key behavioural factors underpinning the public’s compliance to wearing a mask.

      First, people need to understand virus transmission and how masks protect them and others. They need to understand the risks. Professor Mills says, ‘We learned from previous pandemics that individuals underestimate their own risks of contracting the virus or transmitting it to others and think that ‘it won’t happen to me’.’

      Socio-political systems, public trust in governments and experts and previous experience with pandemics is also key. The report shows, for instance, how political polarisation can impede a government’s ability to provide a coordinated response.

      Individual characteristics are also important with ‘younger people and men having a lower threat perception and compliance of interventions’. Professors Mills notes, ‘Women have a higher incidence of compliance with public health measures such as wearing face coverings, which may a contributing factor the higher COVID-19 deaths amongst men.’

      https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now

    76. Walter Jones says:

      Summing up today’s events,

      The SNP and Sturgeon took a fuckin pounding.

      The true Indy Punters have had enough.

      FUCK STURGEON

      FUCK THE SNP.

      Let’s hope Kenny McKaskill reports back his findings to Bute House about how his Thread went down with the Wings faithful.

    77. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dogbiscuit
      I feel my perspective and insight might assist folks come to a better understanding of reality, so help them make better decisions. Of course I don’t always deffer to power, but my training did provide me insight into public law and the requirements of open democracy. It also provided me with insight into the relationship between human rights, the law and democracy, which I’ve been attempting to share.

      Full text.

      Philosophical Explorations
      An International Journal for the Philosophy of Mind and Action Volume 12, 2009 – Issue 2: ACTION, RESPONSIBILITY, AND BELIEF

      Belief and freedom of mind

      Abstract
      There are many ways to advance our understanding of the human mind by studying different kinds of sociality. Our aim in this introduction is to situate claims about extended cognition within a broader framework of research on human sociality. We briefly discuss the existing landscape, focusing on ways of defending socially extended cognition.

      We then draw on resources from the recent literature on the socially extended mind, as well as the literature on collective intentionality, to provide a framework for thinking about the social dimension of individual minds. We then turn to a brief overview of the individualistic approaches advanced by Ludwig and Spaulding in this volume.

      And we close with a discussion of the transformative role of the social mind in individual life presented by Kern and Moll, as well as the distributed approach to interacting systems defended by Goldstone and Theiner.

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869790902838449

    78. Willie says:

      Just listened to the coconut colonial Naga Munchetty spilling the bile about Scotland getting fuck all if it wasn’t part of the Union.

      Don’t know where this shallow skinned Brit traces her lineage from but she’s the full blown coconut Brit now pouring too poor, too wee, too dependent on the Scots.

      Attitudes like that make you realise what a fucking shit hole the BBC is with racist sluts like this expousing sectarian bile. Maybe this wee piece of Brit superiority shagged her way into a job. With attitudes like hers it wouldn’t be a surprise.

      Racism on the BBC. Anti Scottish agenda. Too poor, too dependent, why didn’t she just say the Scots were the new wogs / wops / Diego’s / blacks / chinks or whatever other pejorative names these superior Brits apply to lesser creatures. Offensive, and then some, I think so!

    79. Beaker says:

      How many people have actually heard of McDonald? There are very few politicians who are well know with the public.

      As for Twitter… I like to read it for a laugh (I only post on writing groups, sad I know). What I still don’t understand is how gullible people are. Some nasty bastards on there as well.

    80. K1 says:

      23rd July 2020

      ‘Mask mandates and other lockdown policies reduced the spread of COVID-19 in the US’

      ‘ Mask mandates for employees directly reduced transmissions

      Figure 2 illustrates the raw-data fact: the US states with mask mandates for employees of publicly facing businesses tend to have lower case and death growth rates than states without mask mandates since the end of April 2020.

      Our causal analysis, which controls for many confounding factors and dynamics, confirms this raw-data finding. The effect is mostly direct (without affecting people’s behaviour), suggesting that wearing masks lowers transmission risk per contact.

      Figure 3 shows the result of our counterfactual analysis based on the estimated causal dynamic model. Nationally implementing mandatory face masks for employees on 1 April could have reduced the weekly growth rate in cases by as much as 10%, which translates into a nearly 40% relative reduction in cumulative deaths (90% confidence interval of [17,55]%). This implies that as many as 17 to 55 thousand lives could have been saved through the beginning of June; as of 27 May 2020, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports 99,031 deaths in the US.’

      Further:

      ‘Economic relevance

      The economic evaluation of various policies is underway in many new papers (e.g. Chetty et al. 2020, Coibion et al. 2020). Understanding the effect of containment policies on fatalities and cases is crucial to understand the trade-off between health and economic wellbeing since fatalities entail direct economic losses but some COVID-19 survivors may suffer from long-term health complications (see e.g. Alvarez et al. 2020, Baqaee et al. 2020, Fernández-Villaverde and Jones 2020, Acemoglu et al. 2020, Keppo et al. 2020, McAdams 2020).

      While the economic effect of some containment policies is hard to evaluate immediately, the effect of mask policies is clear and could be gauged from a simple calculation: 40,000 saved lives, in April and May, times the statistical value of life, e.g. $5 million, translates to a $200 billion economic impact – an order of magnitude bigger than the cost of implementing the universal mask policy.‘

      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/mask-mandates-and-other-lockdown-policies-reduced-the-spread-of-covid-19-in-the-us/

    81. Andrew Davidson says:

      It’s an aside to the main thrust but you know what gets me with the “Friends of Israel” shit?

      Strangers aren’t as important but friends are the people you choose so you should be telling them when they’re behaving like an arse.

      And more on point I’m sure that SM actually agreed with the stance hence the mild comment about it not being him that said it.

    82. Dave says:

      And yet a mistake WAS made and he didnt actually quote the statement. With all thats going on you have an ocean of material for your blog that the Tories are kindly gifting to you and still you spend your time attacking pro Independence supporters because it seems woke has become your focus for blogging and not Independence. Why dont you change your blog name to Wings over the rainbow and stop pretending you’re still the pro Independence blog you used to be.

    83. Walter Jones says:

      You could watch BBC News and Sky News all day long and you still won’t see or hear any news or sports updates relating to Scotland Wales or N Ireland.

      The arrogant english bastards must think the Colonies won’t notice that all the News and Sport is about England and only England.

      Where the fuvk are our SNP politicians?

      They must see and hear the same english shite we see and hear.

      And the BBC actually want to send you to prison if you don’t pay for this shite.

    84. Andy Ellis says:

      @Old Pete

      I’m afraid your call for an effective “Popular Front” is a non-starter, nor does it really chime with your earlier call for everyone to trust the SNP and not criticise. The steps you advocate could and should have already been done, so the question is why haven’t the SNP (and indeed other pro indy parties) already made them so?

      Of course, it’s also arguable that many (or even most?) of the measures you advocate would be achievable under devo-max. The Faroe Islands enjoy a level of control Holyrood could only dream about, but you don’t see Scottish unionists advocating for that kind of federalism or quasi-independence.

      As for your “cunning plan” about treating Holyrood 2021 elections as an effective plebiscite, you’re preaching to the choir to many of us, but you’d have to convince the SNP to adopt it as policy.

      Good luck with that!

    85. Oneliner says:

      Front page of The Belfast Telegraph (allegedly) after the Titanic disaster:

      Ulster Man Lost At Sea.

    86. Republicofscotland says:

      So Douglas Ross the Scottish Tory for Moray, who’d rather run the line at a footie match than meet with his constituents said on Channel 4 news last night, that the 200 odd yessers who booed at Johnson on his arrival there, were actually cheering and waving at the PM.

      A skewered view of the world from a Tory’s perspective.

    87. Mags says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      you can calculate the curvature all you want, but that just makes you look desperate

      PMSL at you, you come across as being a sad

    88. Mags says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      you can calculate the curvature all you want, but that just makes you look desperate

      PMSL at you, you come across as being sad

    89. James Che. says:

      Republicanscotland And Tom, last good contributions to topic wrote about.
      Perhaps we could discuss face mask wearing in a different topic.

    90. Terrycallachan says:

      Oh dear an SNP MP said something unacceptable about AS
      Nobody complained

      OH hang on a minute it wasn’t an SNP MP that said something unacceptable about AS it was a
      Conservative MP

      And the story is ….not ” the Conservative”
      The story is ….that nobody complained when it was reported as an SNP MP saying it

      Really ?
      Really ?

      Gee …weird.sounds like wos is saying ..let’s blame SNP anyway



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