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The irrefutable argument

Posted on July 05, 2019 by

We haven’t done a good old-fashioned Quoted For Truth in quite some time, but on occasion someone else makes a point in a way that just can’t be improved on.

We’ve always known/said that this is THE core case for independence, of course, but sometimes seeing it from another country’s perspective brings the message home.

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  1. 05 07 19 14:56

    The irrefutable argument | speymouth

139 to “The irrefutable argument”

  1. Richard Hunter says:

    To play devil’s advocate, I suppose you could say that NI has had a civil war (veering between hot and cold) going on for the last fifty years. The better comparison is probably between Scotland and RoI.

  2. Republicofscotland says:

    One of the very core prinicples of why Scotland must become independent.

  3. Proud Cybernat says:

    Ironic, in the extreme then, that in the 2011 Census, N.I. was the ONLY part of the UK to claim their national identity was ‘British’.

  4. Robert Louis says:

    The argument for independence in a nutshell. Independence has been good for Ireland and would be good for Scotland.

    If the union with England actually WAS as good for Scotland, as loony unionists assert, their would be no desire for independence. That is what is so odd about Theresa may’s speech the other day. She asserts that they need to tell people how good the union is for Scotland, but by every measure, it just isn’t. Their are no benefits from the union for Scotland.

    Of course loony unionists continually lie and make up ‘benefits’ to Scotland, but when facts get checked, they are proven as worthless. The only people benefiting from the union, is England, with a steady supply of free oil for the past forty years stolen from Scotland, and a safe place far from London for storing their weapons of mass destruction.

    All through the indyref campaign, I and many others continually challenged the ‘better together’ group to tell us the wonderful benefits of this cursed union, and no response came. Oh, actually, I recall some of them said we had fought world wars together or something, but that was all.

  5. Joe says:

    12.5% Corporation tax

    19% UK
    21% US (after Trumps tax cuts)
    33.3% France
    30% Australia

    it helps when businesses actually want to be in your country.

  6. jimnarlene says:

    Nail rammed home!

  7. Ottomanboi says:

    Independence aka enlightened* selfishness.
    * informed, educated, cultivated, civilized, sophisticated, urbane….
    We need more that!

  8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “To play devil’s advocate, I suppose you could say that NI has had a civil war (veering between hot and cold) going on for the last fifty years. The better comparison is probably between Scotland and RoI.”

    The Good Friday Agreement was over 20 years ago now, and the worst of the Troubles more than 40 years ago.

  9. geeo says:

    It just shows the power of political and social, cognitive dissonance, that people, in this example, from the same (original) country (Ireland) can have wildly different lives, and those whose lives have been changed for the worse, are not only fiercely protective of maintaining that obvious disadvantage, but actively vote for it to continue.

    All the more incredible when the (now) more advantaged people (ROI) actually fought an armed struggle to gain said advantage, proving that decisions made by another country for them, were the root of that disadvantage previously !

    Scotland has 2 futures in front of us.

    One good, one awful.

    We face a stark choice, and a wonderfully exciting opportunity at the same moment.

    Vote No, and watch Scotland be systematically destroyed by a Tory government hell bent on crushing Scots Human/Civil Rights and living standards, who will SLASH the Holyrood budget, rendering it useless, with the intention of killing off support for the SNP by then blaming them when they are forced to implement harsh tax increases and slash all budgets for health, education, etc.

    With the SNP out of office, and Scotland in economic flames, we will never ever get another chance to choose independence.


    Vote Yes, and a very, and vastly wealthy Independent Scotland can invest in our Country, our People, our public services, in business, innovation, and socially just policies which help the most vulnerable in society and use the remaining oil wealth to transition to 100% renewable energy sources and building up a substantial national savings fund to under-write the long term prosperity of Scotland and her people.


    The SNP cannot deliver these things today.

    WE, the people of Scotland, are the ONLY people who can deliver either future laid out above.

    The SNP are the vehicle to deliver the opportunity for Scots to decide, but it is the Scots People who must decide the future they want.

    Lets not let Scotland down, lets not let ourselves down, lets get focussed on the only issue in town, independence, lets get back to persuasion of others that indy is the best option for Scotland, lets not be sidetracked by non indy issues, our enemies are single-minded in their approach against us, when we lose focus, they gain ground, that has to stop.

    Lets get out and make sure we have done all we can to ensure a Yes vote.

    Our very future, and the futures of the generations to follow, are depending on us, here and now, making the right choice for Scotland, today, and forever.

    Lets focus, and ensure we get it done.

  10. Doug Bryce says:

    Good to see the site back on topic!

    Irish GDP / average wages / standard of living are much higher in Ireland than NI (….and indeed much of UK). However you never read that in UK press. All we are ever told is that the EU and EURO are bad.

    Here is an interesting fact – historically Belfast was the economic capital of Ireland. However that all changed in 1920 with independence.

  11. Josef Ó Luain says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    In no-way or by any stretch of the imagination is that evidence that all those in N.I. subscribe to being “British”.

  12. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It’ll be interesting to see attendance figures for this year’s atrocity exhibitions i.e. the OO walks.

    Are any scheduled to take place in Ayr tomorrow?

  13. Col says:

    @ Doug Bryce above, Agree.

  14. Proud Cybernat says:

    @Josef Ó Luain

    “In no-way or by any stretch of the imagination is that evidence that all those in N.I. subscribe to being “British”.”

    I think we’re all pretty savvy enough on this site to know that and to know also who considers themselves ‘British’ in N.I.

  15. twathater says:

    @ geeo 1.54pm a very rousing and explanatory post and I agree with all the sentiments , we can do this , we MUST do this , to fail is a betrayal of the generations to come , and without exagerration may lead to the demise of the nation Scotland

  16. Joe says:

    @ Doug Bryce

    Sorry but no. Ireland has done well in spite of the Euro. Not because of it. Yes, data confirms this.

    Irelands success can largely be put down to business friendly policies.

    Just as Scandinavian countries are lauded by the left for their successful economies and their left wing approaches it is completely ignored that the private sectors (or natural resources) are huge compared to their relative populations and has supported every socialist policy with hard earning power and relatively small populations.

    Countries thrive by enticing capital to come, stay and do business. Full stop. Scandinavian countries all have corporation tax at between 20 to 27%. The U.S corporation tax was 30%+ before Trumps cuts.

    Just saying.

  17. Iain says:

    Or another angle: An independent Scotland will make mistakes. Of course, it will. But they will be our mistakes and not those perpetrated by another country (of which we have had many). And we will learn from our mistakes, and our country will be the better for those mistakes.

  18. geeo says:

    @Joe 2.24pm

    Desperate stuff from you, Ireland is doing fantastically well compared to the Uk.

    But hey, nothing to do with Ireland making policies FOR IRELAND .

    You mention the Euro, when nobody else has done so, how random of you ?

    Then the best bit:

    “Irelands success can largely be put down to business friendly policies”

    (or natural resources) “are huge compared to their relative populations”


    So, an indy Scotland, with business friendly policies and our huge resources, are absolutely stuck on to succeed then, according to you ?

    Oops, bit of an own goal there, Joe the british nationalist 🙂

  19. Doug Bryce says:


    > Ireland has done well in spite of the Euro.

    That is impossible to prove either way.
    What would their economy be like if they still used the Irish punt? Who knows…

    Lets not forget that just 30 years ago Ireland was a very poor farming country – no motorway between the major cities etc. Now it is a booming economy with massive inward investment and GDP higher than UK. However you wont read a word about that in UK press. Ireland doesn’t even have north sea oil 😉 So what could Scotland be like…

    We could discuss merits of Euro as a currency for small nations : However that is entirely another topic to economic success of Ireland vs. UK (excluding London).

  20. Thepnr says:

    Ireland has prospered and done very well in the last 40 years specifically because of being able to make decisions for herself within the EU. They have embraced the EU and been richly rewarded for it in terms of growth in their economy.

    Here are some of the highlights, emphasis my own.

    Benefits of EU membership to Ireland

    Irish businesses have unhindered access to a market of over 510 million people

    An estimated 978,000 jobs (link is external) have been created in Ireland during the years of membership and trade (link is external) has increased 150 fold

    Foreign Direct Investment in to Ireland have increased dramatically from just €16 million in 1972 to more than €30 billion

    Irish citizens have the right to move, work and reside freely within the territory of other member states

    Between 1973 and 2015, Ireland received over €74.3 billion from the EU. During the same time, it contributed approximately €32 billion to the EU budget (Department of Finance figures (link is external)).

    Between 1973 and 2014 Irish farmers received €54 billion from the Common Agricultural Policy.

    Irish views and interests are reflected in the policies of the EU towards the rest of the world.

    EU membership has helped bring peace and political agreement in Northern Ireland through support and investment in cross-border programmes.

    The Irish language is an official working language in the EU, which helps to protect the country’s native mother tongue for future generations.

    Not bad for a wee country smaller in many ways than Scotland.

  21. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s cross cultural comparative analysis, that is. I know a bit about this stuff. Sorry, only an abstract.

    Issues in Cross Cultural Comparative Research


    Only a few studies that have examined the effects of participation on an individual’s goal acceptance and performance have been conducted within a cross-cultural context. In the present study, we tested for the contingency between the effectiveness of goal-setting strategies and cultural values. We examined three goal-setting strategies within three different cultural groups—assigned goals, goals participatively set by a group representative and the experimenter, and goals participatively set by a group.

    The three cultural groups studied were U.S. students (n?=?60), individualistic and having a high power distance; Israeli students from urban areas (n?=?60), collectivistic and having a low power distance; and Israeli students from kibbutzim (n?=?60), highly collectivistic and having a low power distance. Results indicated that participative strategies led to higher levels of goal acceptance and performance than the assigned strategy. Culture did not moderate the effect of goal-setting strategies on goal acceptance, but it appeared to moderate the strategy on performance for extremely difficult goals. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)

  22. galamcennalath says:

    Scotland could have had all the best policies of Ireland and Norway. We should be the envy of the developed world. But what have got – someone else’s millstone chained to our neck. We get someone else’s policies, priorities, idealology, and cock ups.

    Time to move on, catch up, and move ahead.

    What has the Union done FOR Scotland in the last 50 years? It’s done plenty TO Scotland!

    There are no benefits nor dividends to be had from the Union!

  23. Thepnr says:

    Here’s the link to the article I took the information from.

  24. Heaver says:

    I just want a boringly competent government to whom my opinion and vote is important. For all its faults Holyrood is clearly where Scotland should be governed from.

  25. William Habib Steele says:

    “What’s best for the UK?” really means, “What’s best for England?”

  26. TYRAN says:

    But flag.

  27. kapelmeister says:

    The opposite term to independent is dependent. The dictionary definition of dependent is to be reliant on others. Events have shown that Scotland cannot rely on England to even the tiniest degree.

    Scotland is not independent. Yet we are not dependent either. In fact all who read Wings know where the dependence is in the UK.

    So Scotland is neither independent or dependent. We are in political limbo. We should have a word which captures the status quo, because as I said, we are not dependent.

  28. Proud Cybernat says:

    So Scotland is neither independent or dependent. We are in political limbo. We should have a word which captures the status quo, because as I said, we are not dependent.”


  29. Terry callachan says:

    Joseph O Luain …you are correct
    Proud are wrong

    A little over half the people in Northern Ireland want to remain part of UK many do consider themselves british but a fair proportion consider themselves Irish

    A little under half of the people in Northern Ireland want the reunification of Ireland none of them consider themselves british

  30. kapelmeister says:

    Proud Cybernat@4:01


    Like it.

  31. Mountain shadow says:

    I’m in County Wexford at the moment and the widespread wealth is very apparent.

    You turn on the TV and the news is about Ireland, the documentaries about Ireland, even the weather is about Ireland

    Wexford just won their first Leinster hurling championship for many a year and the pride in the county is very clear with yellow and purple flags everywhere. I would love to see something similar in Scotland.

  32. Lenny Hartley says:

    O/T hope not to early, their not even trying anymore, in house see a leaflet get pushed through letterbox so quiet that even the dog didnt bark, it was from TV Licensing saying they called and i was not in, more like sneaked up and as quiet as a moose put leaflet through letterbox and ran away !
    I get the feeling that the Propaganda Tax Collectors Moral is not very high just now 🙂 🙂

  33. Mac says:

    Beyond the pale

    Just like beyond Hadrian’s Wall

  34. kapelmeister says:

    Jeremy Hunt wants to bring back foxhunting if he’s PM. Would that mean a lot of the hunts in England would change their name to The Jeremy Hunt in his honour?

    Meanwhile Boris Johnson wants to legalise Scot-baiting.

  35. Fable says:

    Been to s Ireland for the last 4years on holiday … absolutely fantastic…. so European and welcoming … then we came home and my lovely wee country is a shock compared to them.. I love my country to bits want and need independence.. but we are kept down by Westminster to actually just like a third world country ..the difference between us and si is staggering to say the least ,we need Indy NOW…I want the same for my wee country as si have ..going back over at the end off next week..and actually would like to live there..but I could not leave my country .

  36. geeo says:

    @Mac 4.35pm

    You do know Hadrians Wall is ENTIRELY in England ?

    0.6 miles at its closest point to Scottish border, and 68 miles away at its furthermost point ?

    So not sure what your point is ?

  37. geeo says:

    @Proud Cybernat: “Indypending”

    Brilliant 🙂

  38. kapelmeister says:

    Johnson’s campaign website lists the Tory councillors who endorse him. There are 44 Scottish Tory councillors on the list. Including that appalling Majury on Stirling Council.

    By their friends shall ye know them.

  39. ephemeraldeception says:

    @William Habib Steele.

    Not even England. UK Gov priorities and policy are focused on SE England and Greater London. However when speaking about ‘the country’ and ‘Britain…’, ‘British X’, where X = culture, values, traditions, issues, successes etc everyone knows it really relates to England.

    In game of thrones context, Central britain is ‘The North’, Scotland is the wild region of ‘the free folk’ – North of the wall and known civilisation.

    But for the UK winter really is coming.

  40. Clapper57 says:

    There’s the rub !

    You know I remember seeing on TV some news report ( either BBC or STV ) …for the life of me I cannot remember what article was about but I DO remember the professional person being interviewed noted what Canada did in this situation and said we , Scotland, should be more like Canada….she even added that she could not understand why we were not adopting same system here in Scotland.( The lady being interviewed was Scottish ).

    My immediate thought was………ah yes…but Canada is an independent country who have the luxury* , that is so elusive at present to Scotland, where they can adopt and implement policies that they can instigate successfully without the constraints that are imposed by another country that seeks to control, limit and dictate what decisions and policies they can make ….and another country who control the money. ( I say *luxury but of course it is normal for a country to be independent and control it’s own finances and create/implement policies appropriate to it’s own country and people).

    Naturally it was not challenged and I just thought about how much we are held back from being a progressive country responsible for our own decisions that are best suited to benefit the people who live in this country. The fact that this person’s statement did NOT seem to have that evident flaw to the presenter spoke volumes as to how the media choose to ignore and suppress statements that cry out to be corrected and challenged.

    If one learns anything from reading the above post from Stuart C it is that being a country which is a part of a Union that is so greatly controlled by just one part of that Union definitely has detrimental effects for the other parts.

    So to make any real progress and positive difference to those other parts who do not hold the balance of power they really should consider… being a part of UKOK bad for our country?

    The positive case for Brexit is that it exposes clearly who in UKOK has the real ‘democratic’ rights to choose the path by which all nations within UKOK must follow…and there again is the rub…because it may be that each country’s desired destination is not united as one with that of the UKOK but greatly divided through the differences that separate us as nations and the indifference with which we are treated within the UKOK…………..the one obvious exception being the one nation that controls , dictates and abuses it’s power to manipulate the others.

    But England expects….and when it does all other nations must bow to their expectations….willingly or otherwise…now that is a luxury we , and other nations within UKOK, can no longer afford to tolerate and allow to continue if we all want to be progressive and wealthy independent countries in our own right .

    Time to break the regressive UKOK shackles that are holding us all back from doing this and fulfilling our true potential within the world.

  41. Thepnr says:

    Boris Johnson being asked by Channel 4 today “when he’d set aside his own self-interest for the benefit of the country”

    Despite being paid £75k as an MP and £275k writing a column for the Telegraph had this to say in reply.

    That’s likely our next PM, just let that sink in for a minute.

  42. Golfnut says:

    @ Kapelmeister

    How about ‘ mugs ‘.

  43. Bobp says:

    Proud cybernat 2.20pm. Apparently Those that consider themselves British in NI will very soon be outnumbered.

  44. Bobp says:

    Google ‘catholic population growth northern Ireland ‘ by 2021 Catholics will be in the majority.

  45. galamcennalath says:

    I have read that the NI Health Service is one important consideration which puts people off reunification. Perhaps someone who understands health care N & S could comment.

  46. Scott says:

    Just saw this.

    JEREMY Hunt has suggested he would block a second independence referendum as Prime Minister even if the SNP win an outright majority at the next Holyrood election.

    Who the hell does this ignorant twat thinks he is.

  47. call me dave says:

    The hand maids tale: The Guardian archived. 🙂

  48. Clootie says:

    Perhaps because many people in N/Ireland are more focused on “The Fleg” being “Bruttish” and keeping the “Kafflicks” in their place. The Queen represents their joyous superiority.

    I am from that stock. A home with the walls decorated with King Billy, The Queen, Duke of E and of course my Grandfathers Sash/Guantlets etc in a glass case.

    It is of course one of the oldest tools in the Empires arsenal but it has served them well. The bigots will always be with us but the numbers will diminish as people think about the important issues of a fair society instead of supporting those who still think their brand of “patriotism” is even important in a modern setting.

    I look forward to a United Ireland and an Independent Scotland. I can only hope the bigots move to England as it seems to becoming a natural home for that type of thinking. A natural home for Union Flag waving narrow minded bullies

  49. ronnie anderson says:

    Im getting a special investigation team as per the Bbc , that’ll be the another special investigation team ah wunner if their fae the special investigations unit LoL , any budy else feeling special today , never mind you’s might be oan the special postings next week LoL.


  50. frogesque says:

    @Clootie :5.33

    Agreed, except of course they wouldn’t have a Union Fleg to wave.

    Serious problem for the rump of the Union, just exactly how will they re-brand themselves?

  51. Bobp says:

    Clootie , let’s hope they don’t move to Scotland.

  52. geeo says:


    The best thing is, they would not be welcomed down there as much as they think.

  53. Abulhaq says:

    This is a question concerning what suits Scotland and its people, in the EU, out of the EU it’s all about Scotland’s interests.
    Other nation’s models and priorities are not ours. We ought to be ploughing our own furrows not looking to copy how others plough theirs.
    That is what independence is about.
    Surely we’ve had enough of the passive ‘follow my leader’?

  54. CameronB Brodie says:

    This really isn’t rocket surgery. The potential of a nation is determined largely by the level of democracy the nation enjoys. Scotland currently lacks proper democracy and is subjugated by Westminster (see the full-English Brexit, for example).


    I. Introduction

    This brief Background Note seeks to analyse the complex relationship between democracy and development, a question that has preoccupied academics and policymakers alike for several decades. Section II begins by defining basic concepts, including democracy in minimalist and more substantive terms, and development. It also highlights the importance of democracy as a process and development as an outcome.

    The Note then goes on to assess some key (causal) linkages between democracy and development in Section III, discussing in particular modernisation theory and the emergence of democracy; the argument that democracy is a (pre)requisite for development, and the opposite argument that in fact authoritarian regimes are better at promoting development. This section also looks at some of the challenges posed by emerging democracies and proposes taking a new look at modernisation theory for some insights.

    Section IV concludes by summarising a few key texts in the literature, which in the aggregate point to the fact that the evidence linking democracy and development in one way or the other remains inconclusive and highly contested. On this basis, the Note highlights the intrinsic value of the democratic process, while also noting that the expectations placed on (emerging) democracies to generate development outcomes need to be tempered.

    The Note ends by suggesting that, when thinking about democracy and development, it is essential to ‘bring the state back in’, and that the international community needs to think about how the different goals it seeks to pursue interact and to grapple more seriously with the ensuing tensions….

  55. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. What little democracy Scotland enjoys, is constrained by English nationalism and English cultural chauvinism (see the full-English Brexit).

  56. Chris Downie says:

    Excellent article and a case study that we should be using more and more. I speak with first-hand knowledge of the Irish situation, as a Scot who lives near Belfast and is married to a Belfast lady (despite being of Protestant heritage, she and our kids all have Irish passports and we’re fully behind reunification and independence, in no order of preference).

    Having worked regularly on both sides of the border, the contrast is indeed stark, but what makes it most striking of all is that the north had such a head start a century ago; Belfast (AKA Linenopolis) was an industrial powerhouse, which built the Titanic and Olympia and was the envy of much of the world. Conversely, the fledgling Free State had little more than beer and biscuits (Guinness and Jacobs), with a very modest agricultural sector. Today, the latter (despite its many flaws) is a high-wage, hi-tech economy, where every major company and multinational worth their salt does business; the north is a flagging economic backwater, with a massive brain drain, fighting for scraps from the UK’s ever-diminishing table.

    Until recently, ‘might is right’ tribal Unionism has always prevailed here, but what no Unionist has ever honestly addressed – far less answered – is how the ‘security and prosperity of the Union’ has seen them go from being a world-class industrial powerhouse (and the richest part of Ireland by TWO country miles) to being, along with Wales, one of the poorest states in Western Europe.

  57. Thepnr says:

    Hahaha here’s the welcome party tonight (video) for Johnson and Hunt in Perth. I hope they like it 🙂

  58. Terry callachan says:

    England , still stealing from Scotland after all this time, when will it end ?
    Very soon I think

  59. Shug says:

    We really want the brexiters to dump ulster to undermind the unionist argument and support in scotland.
    Trump could force it to bag the resulting irish vote in the us. Clearly reunification will catch more votes for him than good friday ever did for clinton

  60. call me dave says:

    @Terry callachan

    That’s a very interesting site you posted a link to.

    Enjoyed reading some of the other links in there too. Thanks. 🙂

  61. Terry callachan says:

    When England called us Aliens

    The Aliens Act 1705 a threat to all those,wealthy,Scots living and working in England at the time either sign agreement to the union of English and Scottish parliaments or be deported and have your businesses your house and your other possessions confiscated.

    They signed

    Ordinary people in Scotland rioted
    They had been betrayed by the Gordon browns of the day
    England quietly sent troops across Scotland and then lay waste to any protest by beating ,killing or deporting Scots to the the Caribbean or americas or ulster to work for a pittance in severe and restricted circumstances

    Sad but true

    Scotland is about to end this corruption

  62. Footsoldier says:

    Completely off topic I know but has anyone noticed in the UK media that Scotland no longer appears to have a highest mountain as it now nearly always referred to as Britain’s or the UK’s highest mountain. Accurate yes, pedantic yes, annoying yes.

    England of course has Scafell Pike (46th in UK), Wales has Snowdon (19th in UK)and Northern Ireland has Slieve Donard (81st in UK).

    For interest although not in UK, Ireland has Carrauntoohil which would make it 31st in UK and ROI.

  63. Iain mhor says:

    @geeo 4:47pm

    I think @Mac was referencing the phrase itself – ‘Beyond the Pale’ which was originally a reference to stockade ‘pales’ during Norman English occupation of Ireland around the 14th century.
    “Within the Pale ditch, settlers lived under the protection of the crown. But once you passed “the Pale,” you were outside the authority and safety of English law, and subject to all the savageries of rural Ireland. “Beyond the pale” then became a colloquial phrase meaning “outside the limits of acceptable behavior or judgment.”

    The Hadrian & Antonine walls being the Roman equivalent. At a stretch (not a big stretch) one could say our Imperial Masters don’t much care for their own people beyond ‘the wall, far less Scotland. Dunno what @Mac really meant though – just guessing.

  64. Thepnr says:

    Man talks shite on BBC part 1.

    Still talking shite on STV part 2.

    He hasn’t a clue. No wonder support for Independence is on the rise.

  65. Thepnr says:

    Another man talking shite in Scotland hahahaha. I think this whole interview will be worth watching, hope it appears online soon.

  66. Rick H Johnston says:

    The media seem to be swallowing this ‘threat to the Union’ narrative being punted by the tories and Gordon Broon.
    Ye can see their game.
    Same wi Theresa M. She wants to put devolution under scrutiny but what the dugs in the streets ken is England disnae dae sharing. That’s for the lesser breeds like Scotland, Wales and NI.

  67. Thepnr says:

    Westminster is crumbling before our eyes in more ways than one. There will undoubtedly be a second Independence referendum.

    The question of when can only be answered once the issue of whether there will be a second EU referendum and/or a general election has been answered. I think we might know more on that in the not too distant future.

    By the way the tortoise beat the hare for a reason, he wasn’t the stupid one in the race..

    An estimated 30 to 40 Conservative MPs could defy their whips to back moves to thwart a no-deal, more than enough to defeat a Prime Minister determined to press ahead with the move.

    One Tory MP told Sky News: “At this point there are only three options – pushing through a version of the Withdrawal Agreement with the help of [hardline Brexiteers], which seems unlikely, a general election which would be catastrophic for the Tories or a second referendum which suddenly looks more appealing.

    “Some ministers explicitly see this ending in a second referendum.”

  68. Robert Peffers says:

    @:Joe says: 5 July, 2019 at 2:24 pm:

    ” … Sorry but no. Ireland has done well in spite of the Euro. Not because of it. Yes, data confirms this.”

    Claptrap, Joe.

    The Euro is a tradeable currency just like any other tradeable currency. Any country can thus use it just as any country can use the pound and they do not need anyone’s permission to do so.

    Now why do you think on other country than England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland that Westminster forces to use the pound and that Westminster controls use the pound?

    Thing is Joe, there are non-EU countries that choose to use the Euro. Why do you think that is?

    A currency is just a currency and if you have full autonomy then no matter what currency you use you have control over it. You have no compulsion to tie it to any other country that uses it either.

    They are called international trading currencies because you can trade in them. Buy and sell them as you see fit. What did you think those people in the London Stock exchange do, Joe? They buy and sell commodities and trading currencies are commodities.

    Pick up any newspaper and they quote the prices of one international trading currency against all other international trading currencies. So any country can buy a trading currency and use it by circulating it as the currency that country chooses to use.

    You are talking mince by implying that the Euro is somehow inherently a bad currency. It isn’t even a bad currency for Greece. It wasn’t because Greece used the Euro that Greece got into financial troubles. Greece would have been in financial trouble no matter what currency it was using.

    Why do you imagine that non-EU countries choose to use the Euro, Joe? They could choose to use their own if they wanted to. There are many countries that use the Dollar but don’t tie it to the USA dollar. Canada and the USA both use the Dollar and neither has any problems with that. Thing is the two currencies are not tied together.

  69. kapelmeister says:

    Jeremy Hunt says he’ll oppose a second indyref even if the SNP win a majority at Holyrood. In other words they envisage coercion to keep Scotland in post-brexit UK and thereby setting precedents which would destroy English democracy too.

  70. Slightly o/t,


    having an argument about the broadcast tax/tv license,

    is the license for the property or the individual,

    can someone who has a tv license watch a live broadcast in the home of someone who does not have a tv license.

  71. Cactus says:

    Both Ireland north and south – soon to be reunited as the single country they already are – knows and wants Scotland to become independent

    SO check the Tory timeline out… they’re pure mental!!




    Q. Should Scotland become an independent country again?

    David the Cameron:
    “Scotland could be an independent country”

    Theresa the May:
    “Now is not the time”

    Jeremy the Hunt: (PM contendee, allegedly)

    Hey Europe, how ye doin’?

  72. Thepnr says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    The license is for the property and not an individual, someone can watch a live broadcast in another property even if they don’t have a license and they wouldn’t be breaking the law.

    However the homeowner by showing a live broadcast in his/her property without a license would be breaking the law.

  73. galamcennalath says:

    Thepnr says:

    An estimated 30 to 40 Conservative MPs could … back moves to thwart a no-deal … there are only three options – pushing through a version of the Withdrawal Agreement …a general election …. or a second referendum

    Sounds about right. In fact, that’s been the reality for several years now!

    It’s good to see factions of the UK press beginning to show some common sense.

    With of course the fourth option of cancellation.

    And yet, here we are with the two potential candidate PMs spouting off about renegotiations and ‘no deal’ exits. Neither are probably possible. I could bet the two stooges stood in Perth tonight and tried out out-lie each other, a contest on who can promise the most magic spells and unicorns.

  74. Cactus says:

    Good evening LBC’s Iain Dale (off air), what’s your thoughts on Ireland?

    (ps ah enjoyed yer filleting of the Johnson followed with co-host James)

    NB Yer co-presenter Nick Abbot keeps slagging off Glasgow on the wireless dab the now… gonnae skelp his arse the next time yer both back in?

    Cheers dudes

  75. HYUFD says:

    Hunt looks like he wants to be the British Mariano Rajoy.

    Boris however did not say he would rule out allowing indyref2 explicitly although he would fight for the Union ‘as a passionate unionist’and should stick to the original promise the 2014 referendum was ‘once in a generation.’

  76. jfngw says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    It is the property as far as a TV is concerned but their is a named holder of it, although it includes the use of battery powered portables elsewhere (I think it was originally for those with caravans)

    There is no restriction to watching it on iplayer wherever you want if you are covered by a licence, so you could accidently see it live TV through iplayer as long as there is a licence holder present, although you should use the licence holders (everyone in the household is covered by the licence) equipment to receive it and it should have batteries (laptop not a PC).

  77. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 5 July, 2019 at 5:59 pm:

    Sorry to tell you this again, Ronnie, but that’s a load of claptrap.

    The truth is that the TV Licence, (not the BBC licence), is permission from the Westminster government to watch live TV transmissions. That means it would be illegal for the BBC, (who are the Westminster appointed collectors of the Licence money), to keep the TV Licence money. It belongs to the Westminster government. It is collected by the BBC’s agents and is turned over to HM Treasury and added General Taxation.

    The Government agrees a set sum to be paid out of general taxation as the BBC Annual Grant. So it doesn’t matter how many people don’t pay the licence fee the BBC will still get its annual grant. It also means that whether you pay the licence fee or not you pay tax into the treasury so we all pay for the BBC anyway.

    Now here’s another wee fact for you. If the TV licence was paid to the BBC then it wouldn’t be a criminal offence if you did not pay for a licence because the BBC are a private company and so not paying the licence and being caught watching TV, (even if it were not the BBC), would be a civil contract offence. It isn’t though is it? It is a criminal offence because you are, “stealing”, from HM Treasury not breaking a contract with a private company.

    The BBC’s most successful bit of propaganda is convincing the public that the TV Licence pays for BBC programmes. They are lying to you.

    Im getting a special investigation team as per the Bbc , that’ll be the another special investigation team ah wunner if their fae the special investigations unit LoL , any budy else feeling special today , never mind you’s might be oan the special postings next week LoL.

  78. Cactus says:

    Good evening HYUFD ~

    “Hunt looks like he wants to be the British Mariano Rajoy.”

    That’s a good point in a different but similar kind of way…

    Imagine Spain and France were in a union together
    (let’s say for experiments sake a bit like this here UK)

    How would France react with Spain trying to tell France what to do?

    Sacre bleu!

  79. Cubby says:

    The FUD with the colonial mindset is back. Tories think they own everything and everyone.

    Stuff your “we won’t allow” comments where the Sun don’t shine.

    Tories a bunch of lying criminal hypocrites.

  80. msdidi says:

    The picture in the Courier doesn’t do the crowd justice. It only shows one section and must have been taken early on as the “Tory Scum Out” banner was quite quickly replaced…..I think because many complained to those responsible for it. At least they did report it was a large crowd which is more than the BBC did…..they did not even mention the 2-3 hundred + ? of us who turned out to “welcome” the visitors! I’ve just watched the STV news and we didn’t get a mention from them either! Maybe they showed it live on the 6 o’clock news? There was a young girl filming and interviewing some of the protesters…..she was from RT.

  81. Robert Peffers says:

    @Abulhaq says:5 July, 2019 at 6:45 pm:

    ” … Other nation’s models and priorities are not ours. We ought to be ploughing our own furrows not looking to copy how others plough theirs.
    That is what independence is about.
    Surely we’ve had enough of the passive ‘follow my leader’?”

    As usual you have got it all wrong but I don’t suppose you will listen any more than you did when I last pointed out the truth to you – none the less here it is again.

    There is no comparison between Scotland’s case and any other country in the World. Not Wales, not N.I. and not Catalonian and not Quebec.

    The truth being that the United Kingdom is a united kingdom and thus the union only involves the two kingdoms that form the United Kingdom and thus The Kingdom of Scotland will not be leaving the United Kingdom and leaving behind the rUnited Kingdom.

    The Kingdom of Scotland will be dissolving, i.e. ending, The United Kingdom and that is why the Westminster Parliament of the United Kingdom cannot stop the Kingdom of Scotland either holding a referendum of the legally sovereign people of Scotland, and if they decide to do so, prevent the dissolving of the United Kingdom. Bear in mind that Westminster has already conceded, “The Scottish Claim of Right”.

  82. geeo says:

    I see 2 of the regular diddymen are back on the scene.

    Fuddy @10.41pm : “should stick to the original promise the 2014 referendum was ‘once in a generation.’

    No such ‘promise’ exists.

    Recently, certain loony yoons have attempted to revise history and claim such nonsense was actually in the Edinburgh Agreement !

    Good luck ACTUALLY finding it there, or written down ANYWHERE with any importance.

    It was a throwaway line like any other used every day.

    My daughter is off on a 3 week backpacking trip to Thailand soon, her mother called it “a holiday of a lifetime”, yet she may go to Australia next year for a month to visit a pal who emigrated there, now, some may say THAT trip is also “a holiday of a lifetime”.

    Does that mean she cannot go to Australia then ?

    Away ya mentalist.

  83. Thepnr says:


    “The picture in the Courier doesn’t do the crowd justice.”

    The video on the Courier has been updated and is now 4 minutes long and worth a watch, at 1:01 into the video you can see the time on the clock as coming up for half past seven.

    Certainly looks like a couple of hundred to me, well done to all that went down to the hall and made their voices heard 🙂

  84. Abulhaq says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Please read and comprehend the comments before posting yours.
    Besides, the British state and its potential PM couldn’t give two hoots, assuming awareness of its existence, for that union treaty to which you refer.

  85. Cactus says:

    Start yer engines, pre-indy Scotland, ah reminder

    Be there in Ayr

    Do it for Robert Burns!!

  86. kapelmeister says:

    As others have said the Tories are now aping the stance of Madrid. An emphatic no to the right of self-determination, even though a previous Tory PM signed the Edinburgh Agreement. References to the sanctity of UK unity and references to blood. All very gothic and ghastly.

    Scotland cannot now be both British and internationalist. So make your choice folks.

  87. Thepnr says:

    Watch the interviews on that video and be prepared to be godsmacked.

  88. CameronB Brodie says:

    The full-Brexit is a right-wing coup that has highlighted the vulnerability of the constitutional rights of individuals living outwith England. That’s because the full-English Brexit is an expression of expansionist English nationalism and is extremely fascistic in nature. The British constitution is now ‘optional documentation’, apparently. As such, the future does look a tad threatening. 😉

  89. Abulhaq says:

    Curious how these Tory aspirants engage with ‘The Union’ having been indifferent to the thing itself for most of their careers. Must be the benighted Davidson effect.
    Johnson might be more compliant than Hunt who like King Canute would rather drown than admit to the incoming tide.

  90. @Thepnr,

    if the license is for the property how does that effect watching live broadcasts outside the property like watching on a pc or phone.

  91. HYUFD says:

    Cactus Spain and France were united under the Bourbon monarchy from 1701 until the French Revolution and then under Napoleon of course

  92. Thepnr says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    If the property you live in is covered by a TV license then you can watch live TV on any device outwith the home that is powered by a battery. I believe this originally came about so as people could watch a portable telly in their caravan or mobile home.

    I doubt that mobile phones or laptops were ever considered when the rules were made. So this is just my opinion as to my knowledge no one has ever been prosecuted or fined for watching live TV outwith their home without a license.

    An interesting point is that is is clearly legal to watch live football in a pub, live racing in the bookies and live telly in the bedroom of your hotel because they all must have a TV license in order to be able to show it.

    I don’t know if the question has ever been asked as to whether you might watch something different using their wifi for example on their premises.

  93. Robert Peffers says:

    @Abulhaq says: 5 July, 2019 at 11:19 pm:

    ” … Please read and comprehend the comments before posting yours.”

    You are Hilarious, Abulhaq

    ” …. Besides, the British state and its potential PM couldn’t give two hoots, assuming awareness of its existence, for that union treaty to which you refer.”

    Which, “British state would that be, Abulhaq.

    When I looked, (a moment ago), there were several, “British States”, within the British Isles. That is among all eight of the several countries and the two kingdoms that contain them all – but that includes the one republic.

    And you have the temerity to tell me to read and comprehend. You are absolutely full of Westminster propaganda and you don’t comprehend that.

  94. Cactus says:

    Ah wisnae aware of that HYUFD, thank you ~

    “Spain and France were united under the Bourbon monarchy from 1701 until the French Revolution and then under Napoleon of course”

    None-the-more-or-less like… that’s the looooong gone past

    Could ye imagine Spain trying to tell France what to do?

    In this here 21st Century

  95. HYUFD says:

    Abulhaq Boris campaigned to leave the EU, although he will fight for the Union on the same basis if Scots voted to Leave the UK I doubt he would try and stop it if it was voted for by a majority of Scots.

    Hunt however was a Remainer and has said he will put the Union ahead of Brexit, so he would clearly try and block indyref2 at all costs, maybe even employing the force and riot police type action Rajoy used in Catalonia

  96. robertknight says:

    Scotland needs to get itself out the UK before we’re effectively erased from the map and everything that makes Scotland what it is disappears beneath a post-Brexit campaign masterminded by Baw Jaws to Make England Great Again.

    They’re even selling red MEGA baseball caps online. I mean, WTF???

  97. Cactus says:

    A further example (based on the above theme)

    U.S.A. says… Hey Canada, we own you

    Canada says… Hey, fuck you

  98. HYUFD says:

    Cactus There was the War of 1812 of course

  99. Cactus says:

    Would you like to share more on the War of 1812 with us HYUFD

    Ahm no overly historied up


  100. Thepnr says:

    The final nail in Labour in Scotland’s coffin will be hammered home by Richard Leonard in Motherwell tomorrow in a disastrous speech. We’re going to get MORE devolution!

    Mr Leonard will announce on Saturday he has set up a working group to explore “Scotland’s options for change that delivers more devolution”.

    As part of that he will say the unelected House of Lords “should be abolished” – suggesting this could be replaced by a Senate of the Nations and Regions for the UK that could “begin the process of shaking up our political system that for centuries has served the political establishment not the people”.

    He will also say Holyrood needs “borrowing powers fit for a Parliament” rather than the limited ability to borrow funds that it currently has.

    By reforming devolution, but keeping Scotland in the UK, he will argue Labour is “tapping into an understanding, which is clear to many people that the UK state needs to be reformed”.

    But the Labour leader will also insist the current SNP government in Edinburgh could make better use of existing devolved powers.

    Speaking in Motherwell, Mr Leonard will promise a Labour government at Holyrood would “use the existing powers more effectively”.

    He will claim: “Despite the Scottish Parliament becoming one of the most powerful devolved institutions in the world, it has failed to tackle some of the biggest issues facing Scotland.”

    It goes on and on, getting worse with every sentence. Things can only get better right enough for those seeking Independence.

  101. Cubby says:

    “Maybe even employing the force and riot police type action Rajoy used in Catalonia.”

    FUD pathetically trying to scare independence supporters. GIRUPY – you lying Tory barsteward. Talking your usual nonsense.

    9 percenter Tory.

  102. James F. McIntosh says:

    There has been a post on another site claiming that the secret? Gov.poll had a straight 72% yes result supposedly from 2 members of the 1822? group.Don’t know if this has already been mentioned it not

  103. HYUFD says:

    Cactus Basically the Americans were annoyed by a British naval blockade to stop supplies getting to Napoleon, the USA then tried to invade Canada but were beaten back by the British, the British then invaded the USA and burned down the White House but were in turn forced back when the Americans won a battle in New Orleans

  104. HYUFD says:

    Cubby I will be voting for Boris not Jeremy Rajoy

  105. Thepnr says:


    “Cubby I will be voting for Boris”

    We sweaties can’t thank you enough for giving us the Prime Minister that will guarantee Independence. Thank you, thank you, thank you ever so much we are most humbled so we are.

  106. HYUFD says:

    Thepnr I really don’t think having Boris or Hunt as PM makes the slightest difference as to whether Scotland becomes independent and given the Brexit Party were second in Scotland in the European elections Boris wins back some of those voters to the Scottish Tories. Boris I think still wants a FTA for GB with the EU and a technical solution for the Irish border (or even a referendum on the backstop there) he will only do No Deal as a last resort to ensure Brexit in October

  107. Thepnr says:


    Your words of wisdom never fail to impress. I’m really astonished that the local Tories in Exeter have never seen fit to elect you after three goes as well. Never mind, try, try and try again as Robert the Bruce said.

    I’d think about emailing Nigel if I were you, I think you’d be a shoe in for a councillor ticket if you would only embrace Brexit.

  108. Iain mhor says:

    Some of us studied 1812 and it was horrendous, yet some amazing feats of human endurance. Anyway, that’s an interesting piece of history but not as interesting as HYUFD engaging in the debate of the reasonable.
    God love ye HYUFD,yer a tryer, but there is no reasonable debate in reference to any of the politicians above mentioned. Perhaps some lesser lights of your aquaintance or other, would serve you better.

    Really, standing one unadulterated arsehole against another and asking anyone to pick the more reasonable choice is risible. There is no negotiating, there is only dictating terms. You are asking us to accept the universal politics of mouth music to the masses, but the opposite to political colleagues. A very well known phenomenon – Opposing politicians who must retain or gain power have one message for their proletariat and another for diplomatic engagement.
    Each recognises it for what it is and must be and there is no rancour, merely constructive, mutual engagement.

    So, Boris is the one who denigrates Scotland, but in private, he is really our prime candidate, due to his reasonable diplomacy towards his counterparts in Scotland. Behind closed doors naturally. Or perhaps it’s really Hunt, or Gove or any other alky at chucking out time. You’re my best mate, you are, fuck the others, you and me eh? Hic*

    Nah. Not wearing it.

  109. CameronB Brodie says:

    Of course that is a very Anglocentric interpretation of the 1812 war. You still not found any mates? Is that why you’re here, to noise up the natives? Still not as supporter of universal human rights?

  110. HYUFD says:

    Thepnr Epping not Exeter and only lost by 2 votes in May

  111. HYUFD says:

    Ian Mhor The idea that any Scot is going to change their mind depending on whether Boris or Hunt is PM as to whether Scotland should be independent is absurd. If we go to No Deal Brexit there may be a slight shift of Scottish Remainers to Yes but it would still be very close and given most UK voters still want a Deal of some form with the EU No Deal is not going to last that long anyway

  112. Cactus says:

    Keep debating debaters, just had to PLAY this song…

    In light of the other Jeremy that hath now spoken (Hunt is a… peculiar chap)

    NB That’s Matt Stadlen just clocked in on LBC radio

  113. CameronB Brodie says:

    You really are a slavering colonialist Toryboy. You have no skin in this debate. Kindly show respect for a community trying to create a modern constitutional democracy, and do one.

  114. Thepnr says:


    Oh dear did I get that wrong? Sorry geography is not my strong point, I guess politics though isn’t yours and that’s why you keep losing?

    Failing by 2 votes must have been hard to take and I bet it hurt a lot, I guess some have it and some don’t. the voters made their choice and it seems you don’t have it. Try spending less time staying up late at night posting on social media.

    Over 50,000 posts on one blog is a bit excessive and then you have to squeeze in visits to sites such as this. Maybe try going out to local libraries or schools and things canvassing for votes.

    That 2 vote deficit can be overturned you know on the next go. You just have to want it enough and I’m sure you can do it.

  115. Ken Clark says:

    Just in after a long day and catching up a little with today’s/ yesterday’s events.

    So…Jeremy Hunt, “The trouble with Scotland is…it’s full of Scots.”

    I paraphrase; obviously.

  116. Cactus says:

    You called it Winger Ken Clark ~

    Allow me

  117. HYUFD says:

    Thepnr The 673 votes I did get was certainly not to be sniffed at and yes I did canvass, whether I stand again only time will tell

  118. Thepnr says:


    I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability 🙂

  119. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t 🙂

  120. CameronB Brodie says:

    And here’s why. A party that inflicts austerity for ideological reasons, can’t escape the charge of being called “extreme”.

    Psychological Features of Extreme Political Ideologies


    In this article, we examine psychological features of extreme political ideologies. In what ways are political left- and right-wing extremists similar to one another and different from moderates? We propose and review four interrelated propositions that explain adherence to extreme political ideologies from a psychological perspective.

    We argue that (a) psychological distress stimulates adopting an extreme ideological outlook; (b) extreme ideologies are characterized by a relatively simplistic, black-and-white perception of the social world; (c) because of such mental simplicity, political extremists are overconfident in their judgments; and (d) political extremists are less tolerant of different groups and opinions than political moderates. In closing, we discuss how these psychological features of political extremists increase the likelihood of conflict among groups in society.

    political extremism, ideology, rigidity of the right, overconfidence, intolerance

  121. Cubby says:

    Do I give a f..k who the FUD or any mad Tory votes for – NO. All Britnats with a colonial mindset.

    The British Empire is finished – get over it you bunch of Alan B’Stards.

  122. Cubby says:

    Good weather forecast for the AUOB march in beautiful Ayrshire today.

  123. Clapper57 says:

    Just seen a picture of Michelle Ballantyne Tory MSP at hustings with Boris and his supporters…believe she has now come out to support him…I’m confused….thought she berated him on Debate night…she said he was not interested in Scotland and he did not give much thought to Scotland.

    Not shocked or surprised as she is a member of the Tank commander’s flip flop party…….also I guess she must have realised …that in all honesty she was not that interested in Scotland either…being a Tory.

    They really have no shame do they .

  124. Thepnr says:

    For those not old enough to remember, here is a 30 second video of one of Scotland’s greatest ever cringers saluting the strength, courage and indefatigability of Saddam Hussein.

  125. Cactus says:

    Exactly Thepnr, how ye do bro, groovin’ along

    Who made who?

    And who is George Galloway?

  126. Thepnr says:


    Grinding along more than grooving maybe, but hey who said everything was going to be easy?

  127. Cactus says:

    Ah cannae sleep Scotland, ahm all excited about the Robert Burns March for Independence 2019, TODAY in fine ye be fair Ayr

    As market days are a wearing of late…

    An’ folk begin tae tak the gate

  128. Cactus says:

    Good stuff Thepnr, grind away, ahm gonnae try for some sleepies, aye it’s never fun if it’s not easy like, one has secretly sipped several varieties of flavoured teas of the world tonight, tea is a diuretic aye and that’s alorra lorra caffeine aye

    Next up, fresh cut lemon tea


  129. McBoxheid says:

    I live in Germany. I see Irish pubs all over the place and can get Guiness and Kilkenny in several pubs where I live. We had a Scottish pub for awhile.

    But it was the efforts of one man. Ultimately it closed it’s doors. Why? I ask. The Republic of Ireland is a member of the EU and can bring the power of the internal market to bear to promote and sell their products very successfully within the EU. This includes butter, cheese, beer and whiskey. Scotland, the UK sells shortbread mainly.

    If Scotland was independent, it could promotes it’s goods far more successfully in EU internal market, as the ROI does The UK promotes itself with the Union flag and a soldier wearing a bearskin, which I see on cushion covers and on shortbread packets. They UK, if it wanted to, could do so much more. We as an independant country would do so much more.

  130. McBoxheid says:

    Scotland, through the UK sells shortbread.

  131. Dorothy Devine says:

    Looks like the weather is on the side of independence marchers , have a lovely day y’all.

    Give Ronnie a gentle hug from me – a very gentle hug!

    Cactus , keep them going.

    I doubt the BBBC or STV will notice several thousand marchers in Ayr – 20 climate change protestors , 5 transgender activists aye – but incalculable numbers of independence supporters will get the “I see no ships “treatment.

    Make a noise everyone and SING!

  132. Fergus Green says:

    Good morning marchers including those who are with us mind, if not body.

    Its a great day to demand Independence and the sun is out.

    Let’s give the honest and bonnie folk of Ayr a day to remember in the merriest and most positive way possible,

  133. Denys Partington says:

    This has been my number one reason for independence since I could think for myself! Every decision, every discussion, every argument, every vote of every day will be made for Scotland alone! It is not rocket science.

  134. @Thepnr,

    looks like static caravans might need a separate license,
    but mobile caravans don`t,

  135. Jack Murphy says:

    TODAY. STV News on-line. Scotland NHS. [SNHS]

    New figures show almost nine out of 10 NHS training posts filled.

    “Medical director of NHS Education for Scotland (NES) Professor Stewart Irvine said: “We welcome the continued improvement in fill rates for training posts across Scotland this year and, once again, many of our training programmes are completely filled following recruitment.

    “This is a great tribute to the hard work of consultants and general practitioners across the whole of Scotland, who continue to ensure that doctors training here have a great experience and the best possible training……..”

  136. geeo says:

    Fuddy is all conflicted.

    Says he got 673 votes and “lost by 2 votes” in Epping local elections, yet only ONE person missed election in Epping by 2 votes, but they only got 502 votes!

    Namely, one Peter Murray-Conservative.

    That you fuddy ?

  137. robertknight says:


    Saw Robert the Bruce today.

    NOT at all what I expected but thoroughly enjoyed it.


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