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Wings Over Scotland

Nine Minutes Later

Posted on December 10, 2019 by

Two stories from yesterday’s Scottish papers, published at 11.19am and 11.28am:

But it’s even weirder than it looks.

Because despite the seemingly totally contradictory headlines, the two articles above are actually reporting the exact same position.

Here’s Paul Sweeney in the Scotsman:

And here’s Royston Lennon in the Courier:

Those two positions are demonstrably the same. They’re also demonstrably both total nonsense, because there’s ALREADY a majority at Holyrood for a second referendum and both Labour and the Tories are managing to stand in the way of it just fine, but we’ll let that slide for now.

(The Scottish Daily Mail and Daily Record, incidentally, also contrived to paint the two meaningfully-identical quotes as opposites.)

The fact that Labour finally has something akin to a consistent policy on the issue is of course no guarantee whatsoever that it’s one they’d actually honour. Scotland is well used to the party’s broken promises by now. But what can be relied on with reasonable confidence is that it means there is, at a minimum, no way they’d agree to a second indyref before 2021.

This site has for some time been critical of the SNP for continuing to insist that a 2020 indyref is a realistic possibility, and has been stridently and angrily attacked by a hyper-loyalist faction of the party’s membership for saying so. But the longer that lie is told, the harder SNP supporters will take it when it doesn’t happen, and when it becomes clear that the 2016 mandate has been squandered.

And since it’s now plain that a pro-indy Holyrood majority in 2021 is a prerequisite to have any chance of another independence referendum, a disgruntled membership that feels like it’s been led up the garden path and taken for a bunch of mugs is something the SNP needs like two holes in the head and a leaky pair of shoes.

Things reached a new low yesterday when the First Minister unaccountably refused to rule out the stratospherically, absurdly, obviously cretinous idea of having a second EU referendum and a second indyref on the same day:

This site will happily take a £500 bet with any reader that there won’t be an indyref next year, because there simply can’t be one. Even if all the huge political obstacles were magically and implausibly overcome (ie a Labour government willing to not only grant one but to have it ahead of a new Brexit vote) there isn’t the time to enact all the necessary legislation and preparation and campaigning.

(Also, of course, the SNP’s consistent line since 2016 has been that we need to know the outcome of Brexit before we can have another indyref, so having one before Brexit was sorted out would be unthinkable. If Labour somehow win on Thursday that means a renegotiation and another vote. And if the Tories win it means waiting until at least December 2020, plus the Tories will never agree to a Section 30 anyway so we’d be looking at many months or years in court before we could even get started.)

Ironically, by insisting that there can be, the SNP is gravely undermining the chances of there being one in the five years afterwards either. It’ll mean an embarrassing climbdown, but the longer it’s put off the worse it’ll eventually be. The “indyref 2020” lie has to stop and it has to stop now.

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134 to “Nine Minutes Later”

  1. Bob Costello

    There is still the “faithful” that think Nicola sturgeon promised there would be a referendum next year when In fact all she did was manipulate a willing bunch of mugs to get over this election without using it as a mandate for independence

  2. gordoz

    Take it that through the court route is only way and FM has largely been prevaricating as some of us suspected for some specific reason unknown to us or as you seem to suggest – error of judgement ?
    Depressing to say the least – really hope you’re wrong (seriously)

  3. Capella

    Let’s see what happens on Thursday shall we? Only two days to go.

  4. Bryan Weir

    FFS. The election is two days away!

    Wind your neck in and give us all a break.

    Like it or lump it the SNP are the only way to independence.

  5. G H Graham

    If the SNP’s entire independence referendum strategy is hinged on a Corbyn Government conceding a Section 30 order in return for political support, we’re doomed.

    1. Corbyn won’t win.
    2. If Johnson wins which seems very likley, he will never concede a section 30 order.
    3. The SNP already have a mandate so having another one sometime in the next 2 years is meaningless because (see 2.)

    I’m at the opinion now that Nicola Sturgeon quite likes the idea of sitting at Bute House for another 5 years.

    Which is plenty of time to complete her extreme feminist ideology & ban kids from eating anything but Brussels sprouts, lentils & tap water.

  6. Sharny Dubs

    Mandates blown over the head of Brexit and Englands desire for self harm, one could suspect that the SNP’s heart is not really in it.

    Maybe we need to move on and leave them behind.

  7. IndyCrone

    Sadly I won’t be taking your bet. I could fair be doing with an extra £500, but I know I’d lose.

  8. Scozzie

    SNP – delivering devolution, ignoring independence. That should be their strapline. Hold your noses peeps and vote for them at this GE but the membership really has to force the leadership to act on independence and also weed out this woke cult. And don’t expect the SNP will be kingmakers on the off chance there will be a hung parliament – they will be ignored by Labour or used and abused.

    I’ve long since accepted the current mandate will lapse under various excuses and delaying tactics – mainly the stop brexit mantra. But enough is enough. The SNP have allowed too many opportunities to drift on by and still they will not call an indyref date (and no – some fuzzy time late in 2020 does not count). At best it looks incompetent at worst it looks politically weak.

    So dare I say it, I agree with Stu probably Nicola Sturgeon should stand down. She has boxed us into a corner with her stop brexit precedence over independence and her insistence on the S30 so called gold standard.

  9. Bob Mack

    I agree Stu. It wku!d be logistical!y jmpossible to hold the Indyref in 2020. Holyrood can make all the legislation it wants, but Nicola has already stated the SNP will require a Section 30 from Westminster. That is just a cold fact.

    Boris wil! at the very least,delay it till after the 2021 elections hoping to garner more support in Holyrood.

    Corbyn has already stated not in thd early years of a Labour government probably for the very same reason.

    SNP however, remain our only “hope” to Indy. That is also fact.

    Devil and deep blue sea methinks.

  10. Capella

    I trust that the SNP leadership do have a strategy and are working to it. I don’t expect them to emblazon that across the front pages of the unionist press.

    I’m not clever enough to second guess all the possible outcomes of the GE and BREXIT shambles, but I do hope Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues are. They have been spot on so far.

  11. Republicofscotland

    “there isn’t the time to enact all the necessary legislation and preparation and campaigning.”

    How long did it take to organise this GE,with parties campaigning? Brexit aside the dissoluton of Czechoslovakia took only six months to complete.

  12. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “How long did it take to organise this GE,with parties campaigning?”

    If you don’t believe me, the bet is on the table.

  13. Neil Mackenzie

    The lie that has to stop is that Westminster has any “permission” to give so that Scotland can have the international legal right to self determination. That idea is an invented piece of propaganda that has been given a wholly illegitimate place by the press and by this site in the Scottish independence narrative.

    The right to self determination is already ours whether Westminster wants to give its “permission” or not. The democratic hurdle that needed to be jumped to achieve a legal mandate for a referendum has been jumped and all that remains is for an established administrative protocol to be followed. There is no constitutional barrier that can be dropped to stop it once there’s a suitably worded requisition for the necessary powers delivered to the government’s London office.

    The premise that a “formal request” has already been refused by Theresa May is another invented propaganda which should have been loudly and incessantly refuted before it was allowed to become part of the accepted narrative. The truth of that matter is that it never happened. No “formal request” has ever been submitted. So far, all that’s been put in writing is an invitation to discuss arrangements at some future time. Theresa May’s “now is not the time” line is, in fact, a word for word plagiarism of Nicola Sturgeon’s invitation to discuss it and, as such, constitutes an agreement rather than a refusal. That whole episode has been grossly misrepresented by the press.

  14. tartanfever

    The only way I can see an Indyref next year is if Johnson is elected on a sizeable majority and goes for a crash and burn No Deal by the 31st January, and that’s extremely unlikely but not impossible.

  15. SilverDarling

    Scunnered with the lot of them. A Pox on all their houses.

    My prediction is a majority for the Tories and the SNP lose as many as they win. I’ll vote for the SNP because my MP is a ‘good guy’ but anyone who is still defending this dire SNP campaign and ‘strategy’ needs their head examined or an intervention.

    Nicola Sturgeon is no doubt preparing for the onslaught tonight where she will take many hits, score a few points and wink at the camera or something and the faithful will go mad. But what is she going to do on Friday when Johnson and co start to tear up the rule book and bring in legislation to stymie anything the Scottish Parliament brings forward?

    We are so fucked and I hate to say I told you so but the SNP were warned time and again that they were not doing enough. No one wants to lose a referendum but rather that than sit in regret at what might have been. The Inner circle will love it though as they have another 2 years to contaminate Scottish Politics with their misguided identity obsessions before they kill off Indy for good.

    What lies ahead is terrifying and we should have planned for this scenario years ago. We need a miracle or a meteor now because nothing seems to be touching Johnston. This is the worst election I have ever experienced because it was such an opportunity lost and the SNP hierarchy know it.

  16. Craig P

    Suits me. The longer we wait for an indyref, the surer the result.

  17. Stuart MacKay

    All these scenarioes rest on the assumption that come Friday the UK will have a fully competent, fully functioning government in waiting and the quagmire, indecision and general directionless of the past three years and counting will magically evaporate and we can all get back to some kind of normality.

    I simply don’t see it happening. In fact, I bet this time next year the conversations will largely be unchanged.

  18. mr thms

    As things stand a referendum will happen next year.

    Boris Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement, which is a new UK treaty with the EU, includes a ‘transitional arrangement’ that does not extend beyond 31st December 2020.

    Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement also had a ‘transitional arrangement’ which ended on the 31st December 2021.

    Both have the option to apply for an extension to the ‘transitional arrangement’.

    Should the next UK government decide to use the option in the Withdrawal Agreement to request an extension to the ‘transitional arrangement’ they will only have until July next year to do it.

    The Scottish Government could choose to postpone the referendum should the EU agreed to grant an extension to the UK government to the ‘transitional arrangement’.

    The Scottish Government have recently said they would have a referendum next year, regardless of Brexit because of the way Scotland is being treated during the whole process.

    In my opinion they should go for it.

    They have a mandate.

  19. A2

    There is the argument that the refusal of a section 30 is likely to increse support for independence and the only option for getting a yes vote ummm… someday in the distant future. cos if it was held tomorrow the answer would still be no.

  20. Doug Bryce

    There will be an IndyRef2 once it can actually be won. We are not there (just yet).

    Why attack SNP for the polls not currently being at >>50%?
    Far better to spend energy convincing voters why Scotland needs independence. Brexit being imposed on Scotland brings that sharply into focus.

    Scotland clearly cant remain in EU and UK.

  21. Martin

    On Friday we will awake to yet another hung parliament (despite our corrupt voting system) and we will be no further forward on brexit or indyref2.

    It may be 2021 before we even know what’s going on with Brexit, so 2020 for indyref2 does seem extremely unlikely.

    I’m not sure what we, as individual voters, have as an alternative though? It’s not like i can put the case for UDI through the courts. Like everything else in UK politics just now, it’s a shitshow.

  22. Doug Bryce

    > If you don’t believe me, the bet is on the table.

    I fully agree. There probably wont be IndyRef2 in 2020. However that doesn’t mean the SNP aren’t playing a smart long game. Brexit will (eventually) lead to independence.

    The UK is utterly f–ked : runaway train heading for end of the track.

  23. Capella

    We already know the outcome of BREXIT – if the Tories win on Thursday, the UK is leaving the EU. If Labour win on Thursday, the UK is leaving the EU, more slowly. If the Lib Dems win on Thursday, the UK is remaining in the EU – good luck with that one.

    The legislation to hold a referendum as already gone through Holyrood and is nearly complete. All that’s required is to devolve the power. Oven ready (to coin a phrase).

  24. Muscleguy

    I remember the last election when the SNP had to disavow that it was an indyref2. To my knowledge they haven’t even bothered this time.

    I strongly suspect the ‘Stop Brexit’ campaigning it is simply politics, trying to hoover up as many Remainer votes as it can to head off the FibDems’ claims to be The Remain Party’. It’s a lot of sound and fury hopefully signifying very little.

    There is a sizeable level of opinion in Scotland that Brexit seems to be the settled self harm will of the English electorate and it would be wrong for Scotland to try and frustrate it. The solution to us having voted so strongly to Remain is to become a small independent state in the EU.

    I predict that having to deal with the fallout and costs and disruption of not one but two hardened borders will concentrate minds and many will realise being in the EU would solve it all. So I think we should in effect fortify and patrol our border. It would provide employment and we could keep the riff-raff out. Meaning those who want to come and shoot grouse. If we deprive the big estates of their clients from England it will at a stroke put a stake through the heart of it all leading to community and state buyouts.

    Post Indy we should copy NZ and ban foreign ownership. Meaning Buccleuch couldn’t flee to Monaco and the Sheiks and Paulsen would have to come live here. Note I quite admire Paulsen but what gives him the right to come here and impose his vision on us I don’t quite see. He should go build his safari park elsewhere.

  25. Ahundredthidiot

    ‘the bet is on the table’

    aye, but will it be there on Friday?!…

  26. artyHetty

    Maybe Johann Lamonty, arch better together, shafter of Scotland faux socialist liar, was right, ‘Scotland is it seems not genetically programmed to do politics’ or whatever crap she spouted in 2014.

    Can Xmas just be fckg cancelled please, forever. Scotland should go back to not celebrating and having a knees up at Hogmanay instead!

  27. Dave M

    It’s ‘Free by 93’ all over again. Scotland needs a party which is serious about independence, and economic and social policy issues. The SNP is a joke.

  28. artyHetty

    I see even the National were promoting what’s her face Tory liar Davidson on their front page yesterday, they are no friend of the SNP. SNP no mates?

    Let’s get on and expose the Tory liars getting away with corruption, getting away with treating people at rock bottom like sh*t, and treating Scotland like a piece of dog doo doo on their shoes, that’s what Scotland needs right now, especially via pro- indy blogs!

  29. Robert J. Sutherland

    Stu pronounces:

    The “indyref 2020” lie has to stop and it has to stop now.

    (My emphasis.) This is just too much. It goes well beyond a judgement that events (and BritNat fears) will conspire next year to prevent an indyref before year’s end. It’s already well-known that the desperate last-ditch BritNat strategy is to delay an indy showdown until the 2021 Holyrood elections in the hope that the current pro-indy triple mandate majority is scuppered, so nothing new there. (Which in the event may prove a forlorn hope for a disparate bunch of no-hopers, even if it is heavily promoted by the media 5th column.)

    So far fair enough, it’s a matter of judgement how that pans out. But your deliberate use of the loaded word “lie” directly asserts – and you know fine well, or ought to anyway from your late experience, of the importance of the use of words – that the SNP leadership is behaving dishonourably and that it has either no intention of having indyref in 2020, or has itself made a definitive judgement there is no realistic prospect but pretends for public consumption anyway. Both of which amounts to the same thing: that the SNP leadership is deliberately setting out to deceive the public and not merely suffering from its own self-deception. This is the only possible interpretation one can make on your use of that poisonous word.

    I choose to disagree.

    You have as much right to be sceptical about likely outcomes as I have to be considerably less depressive, but if you have proof positive that the SNP leadership is deliberately setting out to deceive, save your donated money from idle wagers and let’s hear the verifiable facts, Mr. Relentless Truth Teller. And less please of this kind of despicable unsubstantiated innuendo.

  30. Dr Jim

    I did creative writing at school too but I didn’t do psychic mind reading or mystic predictions based on whether I like somebody or not and I tend to not call folk liars until the promise they made is broken and if I’m not mistaken the Indyref promise of 2020 hasn’t and can’t be broken until that time passes and I notice we’re still in 2019

    This is not even a crafty strategy to claim the desire for Independence while at the same time make derogatory remarks about the person promising to try to deliver it

    Every political party right now is filling it’s leaflets with derogatory remarks about Nicola Sturgeon in the hope of that translating into less votes for Independence

    Work it out for yourselves

  31. Breeks

    Thing is there’s a catch 22 situation…

    Don’t rule out the possibility SNP is actually banking on a Section 30 being refused, and thus, find themselves “reluctantly” obliged to exercise a degree of sovereignty to carry out a referendum without an agreement, indeed expressly against the will of Westminster, then why would you stop merely at consent to hold a referendum when holding one requires you in point of fact to be sovereign over your own affairs already?

    If Boris Johnson forces the issue to breaking point denying a Section 30, he won’t just be losing power over a referendum agreement, he will be forcing the Constitutional issue of Sovereignty over Scotland to a head, and risking challenge in a Constitutional Court case, which he will lose.

    I honestly don’t understand why the SNP treat Constitutional Sovereignty like a nuclear option, but irrespective of the SNP’s enigmatic strategy, Scotland does have a Constitutional Sovereign Backstop in it’s arsenal.

    I understand the SNP might be loathed to press the red button on Sovereignty while there is a risk Independence is not the will of the majority, but I think that is the risk the SNP need to take. To quote Voltaire, his “perfect is the enemy of good”, doctrine might well be applicable to the Gold Standard Democracy which Nicola aspires to. I’d take Independence by a gold standard, silver, bronze or even papier-mâché standard… I’m not a perfectionist. Any Indy will do.

    Don’t rule out a “hard and dirty” Indy in the Brexit sense of the words… We might yet be making ourselves safe through the Constitutional route, and postponing Gold Standard democracy for a Gold Standard ratification plebiscite after the event.

    The big conundrum is Nicola herself, and her tendency to paint herself into a corner where she won’t use Scotland’s Sovereignty. Nicola Sturgeon could yet be our greatest strength, or our greatest weakness. Nobody knows. That’s why half the Indy movement is on tenterhooks watching Nicola’s game of jeopardy.

  32. HandandShrimp

    We had a shot at independence in 2014 and too many bottled it. That opportunity was delivered by the SNP. I don’t see anybody else realistically securing a second bite of the cherry. Will there be a vote next year? I don’t know. In politics events can take many twists.

    I doubt Labour will win this election. If Johnson wins then the next couple of years could be a roller coaster of unpleasantness. Labour will fall on each other but with the momentum membership I wouldn’t like to second guess Jeremy’s replacement.

    In short, 2021 could be an open door for the SNP to win a 4th term and possibly a very solid platform. By then if the polls and mood are not overwhelmingly in favour of independence then we are never getting out of this mess. In the meantime hang on to your hats and vote SNP. One thing is certain not voting SNP will achieve nothing good.

  33. Bob Mack


    Alex Sa!mond signed the agreement in 2012 and the indyref took place in 2014. Two years. The question was known, the lolling places were in situ. The regular counters were already there.
    It stil! took two years to organise everything. Unless you know different I have listenec many times to Nicola.

    Nicola wants the exzct same format. For legal certainty as sne states.

    That rather sets the timescales.

    (This scenario of course procludes legal actjon.)

  34. grant

    I don’t think we will ever have another indyref if the truth be told. We had our chance and collectively blew it. The Tories know how much we contribute to the UK economy and can’t afford to lose us.

  35. mike cassidy

    But what do you ‘vote snp’ advocates say to people like me in Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath?

    Abandoned by the SNP leadership to placate the transactivists.

    I’ve just received Neale Hanvey’s election leaflet.

    Just a tiny wee mention of the SNP

    To let people know that’s what he’ll show up as on the ballot paper.

    He’s got my vote.

  36. Helen Yates

    I’m not going to say too much on this simply because although I agree with you 100% it won’t make one iota of difference, I will vote for my SNP candidate on Thursday (albeit while gritting my teeth) simply because he is the best choice in my area, I have to ask though, who would have thought the SNP would turn out to be the biggest threat to Independence.

  37. Helen Yates

    *I don’t think we will ever have another indyref if the truth be told.*
    I also agree with Grant.

  38. Ottomanboi

    Alas, it may be that the independence football will have to be taken away from these less than skilful politicians and given to those who actually believe they can score a goal with it.
    The SNP’s second-half time is running out.
    Unionism, by default, still seems to have the best players.
    Scots need to ask themselves ‘what price independence?’…no price too high for success?
    Or is this just a mate’s kick about.

  39. ScotsRenewables

    For a second there I thought Wings was getting back on track, but no, now the SNP are liars.

    Well, we’re fucked then. No point in carrying on.

    Breeks, all this rambling about a constitutional route to independence – it’s all fantasy unless it can be backed up in the highest courts of law, domestic and international, and you and the other sovereignty obsessives have done nothing ot convince me that this is the case.

    There might be a legal case, it might be possible to go down the UN route, but this is a total non-starter unless polls indicate a definite, incontrovertible majority desire for independence

    We are not there yet. The best way to get there is for Boris to flat our refuse a S30 request and to begin dismantling devolution. Then we explore the constitutional route, and my money is on this being Nicola’s plan all along.

    Meanwhile, calling her a liar and demanding her resignation is utterly ludicrous.If it was anyone except Stuart Campbell I would assume they had been bought, but in this case i just have to assume his meds have stopped working.

  40. Republicofscotland

    “If you don’t believe me, the bet is on the table.”

    I’m not doubting that, that is one possible scenario, but I’m not totally convinced yet that a second indyref is off the table next year.

    Then there’s the other possibility of Corbyn winning the GE and needing SNP support to carry the day. We all understand your concerns over the SNP’s failure to use the mandate up until now, however, I see no scenario where less SNP MP’s actually boosts our chances of independence next year or 2021 for that matter.

    As Craig Murray pointed out, timing is everything.

  41. Graeme

    I see Nicola has issued a second warning to SNP activists not to campaign for Neale Hanvey.

    I never thought I’d ever say this but after this election Nicola has to go.

    We need someone who will stand up for our own and stand up up for independence

  42. mike cassidy

    And my btl at 2.48 was before I read this.

    Sturgeon forced to repeat edict over suspended SNP candidate

    And didn’t BBC Scotland do well.

    Tracking down a parliamentary candidate in the week of an election.

    Cos clearly he was hiding in darkest Lochgelly.

  43. Helen Yates

    *Suits me. The longer we wait for an indyref, the surer the result*
    Hypothetically of course but let’s say Corbyn wins with a majority on Thursday and transforms the country as he promises, second EU vote is remain, so no more threat of Brexit, will all those EU citizens who came on board still want Indy? will all those Scots who came on board simply to stay in EU still want Indy?. will most folk who finally see their lives improving, all the tensions of the past 4 yrs gone, will they really want another upheaval which Indyref2 would bring? my guess. we have thrown away the best chance we will ever have of gaining Indy. only time will tell of course and if you still have hope then more power to you.

  44. schrodingers cat

    Craig P says:
    Suits me. The longer we wait for an indyref, the surer the result.


    I agree with craig,

    stu, in the senario where bojo wins a majority on thursday, and refuses a sec30 officially about the end of jan, during the subsequent court case, and attempts to undermine holyrood and withdraw powers,

    if nicola brought down holyrood and called a new HE in spring/autumn next year… would you still stand yes candidates on the list?

    I hope so, it would guarentee us a pro indy majority and lock out the unionists till 2025

  45. Capella

    I don’t see any contradictin in what Nicola Sturgeon has said about SNP canvassers supporting Neale Hanvey. Obvioulsy, they will be supporting him as Independence supporters and I do hope they succeed. After Friday, Nicola Sturgeon will have to do something about Wokus Dei before it does any more damage to the party.

    Since when did we start taking the word of Tom Gordon as gospel truth?

  46. Mist001

    We still have the Alex Salmond case to come. For all we know, this could bring the SNP house of cards tumbling down after which there will be no hope of independence.

  47. Republicofscotland

    “The “indyref 2020” lie has to stop and it has to stop now.”

    Well its not a lie if she asks for it and is refused by Westminster.

    Of course I and many other see the flip side of that coin. Sturgeon knows fine well she’ll be refused and is using the rejection as a spring board to bolster votes come 2021.

    Also she will come across to the Scottish public as treated unjustly by Westminster, who will be seen as hindering democracy. Its a win, win scenario for Sturgeon, but a loss for those who want independence now.

    This scenario could lead to the disgruntled independence minded masses, seeking to vote for a newly formed independence party at Holyrood formed by someone not a million miles away from here.

    To be fair I would that party my list vote.

  48. cynicalHighlander

    Dr Jim

    You are doing creative mince. FM is against her ex SNP candidate who was suspended for an alleged anti Semitic post 3 yrs ago and urging voters not to vote for him. Why? Because he is against the GRA nonsense going through Holyrood that is the sole reason.

    She would prefer a unionist over an independence candidate.

  49. Ian Brotherhood

    Gerry Hassan has not made any further comment following his revelation that Kaye Adams told him she ‘hates’ the SNP because indy threatens her London-based work.

    Kaye Adams complains that Nicola Sturgeon is unable to be on her prog. #CallKaye is dumbed down broadcasting & Kaye’s biases often show: she once told me how she hated the SNP & indy as it would lose her London work. I told her Irish indy hadn’t hurt Terry Wogan’s gigs. #GE2019

    Rev has RTd my own RT of Gerry’s tweet (which was posted at 1am today) and that always generates a much greater response so we’ll see whether or not he has anything to add.

    And it would be very awkward indeed if he doesn’t put a bit more flesh on the bones because of the obvious questions raised.

    Perhaps the most important unknown detail is when he had the conversation which elicited this utterly shocking (i.e. not shocking) information.

    As far as I can find out, Kaye Adams took on the Radio Scotland morning slot in the spring of 2010, so she’s been doing it for almost a decade. It was originally called ‘Call Kaye’ and was shorter than the current format (9-midday) which (from memory) came into effect sometime after indy1 in 2014.

    Unless Hassan has ‘misremembered’, his silence is significant. If Adams had confided in him on the clear understanding that what she was about to say went no further (in which case this revelation is a breach of trust but has clear public interest) then he was a bystander in the closing months of the indyref campaign when the whole stushie over ‘alleged’ BBC bias against indy supporters/commenters reached the Scottish Parliament…

    During a hearing at the Education & Culture Committee in Holyrood, Professor John Robertson gave evidence based on his research. BBC Scotland also turned up to answer questions, but only after twice declining to attend (because ‘they didn’t have to’) and eventually being ordered to do so by Chris Patten (then Chair of the BBC Trust).

    What was striking about that committee session was the sight of Robertson – who the BBC had attempted to have sacked from his post at West of Scotland University – delivering his evidence alone. He had no back-up at all. None of his students, no peers. The BBC arrived team-handed. The original recording of the session(s) can be found here:

    That was March 2014.

    When did Gerry hear Kaye’s confession?

    At what point since March 2014, Sept 2014, or any date for that matter, has it not been in the public interest to disclose this information?

    Perhaps a real journalist would care to approach him?


  50. Republicofscotland

    “FM is against her ex SNP candidate who was suspended for an alleged anti Semitic post 3 yrs ago and urging voters not to vote for him. ”

    Dr Jim.

    I sympathise with Mr Hanvey, and his predicament, however one just has to look across at the Labour party who are currently and always will be beaten by a big media stick over allegations of anti-Semitism, which surely must damage them vote wise.

    Even though the evidence against Mr Hanvey is slight, media and party spin as you know fine well, can seriously damage a parties chances of winning seats in an election.

    Should we allow Mr Hanvey to remain and have the unionist media and their parties claim that the SNP harbours those with anti-Semitism in mind, even though it doesn’t.

  51. Old Pete

    Thought this site was for Independence ?
    All these negative comments are not very supportive with an upcoming election on Thursday.
    So folks we need to believe that Independence will and trust the SNP to deliver. Any other stance puts you squarely on the anti-independence camp.
    The SNP will do their best to deliver the Scottish independence in 2020 if the referendum is blocked by the English Government of any colour then the election in 2021 will be the second referendum and what a superb opportunity that will be. An opportunity we can surely win by keeping faith with the only party with any intention or power to deliver Scottish independence the SNP. So vote SNP if you want independence, vote SNP to show London how strongly we demand it and SNP for a Scottish voice to keep the torch burning if 2020 becomes 2021.
    So vote SNP, for Scotland its people, its future Independence free of the corrupt London Parliament and vote SNP to finally bring an end to this vile UK.

  52. Dr Jim

    The First Minister can do nothing else but publicly distance herself from Neale Hanvey if she did not the onslaught from the media would be that Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP are anti semites

    Remember the media don’t care what the truth is, they want dirt, when John Swinney was asked about this same question he replied “The people of Cowdenbeath should choose the candidate they feel is best for them it’s their decision”
    John Swinney gave himself wriggle room to say go ahead and vote for Neale but we didnae tell ye tae

    Every candidate and representative knows the score when they sign up to be front line for the SNP, the deal is if they get in any whiff of trouble support is withdrawn unless they are 100% squeeky clean and it’s provable

    There are those who reference the Michelle Thomson case in a lot in this and they’re wrong and the first one to tell them would be Michelle Thomson who’s still good pals with the FM and will return for the party soon

    The SNP are the most scrutinised party in the British Isles and we all know why, everything is not always as it seems or as those who set out to mislead would for their own purposes have you believe

  53. callmedave


    Jo Swansong orating in Bath on the car radio there pleading for support trying not to do that’Neil Kinnochy’ thing but not very convincingly. 😉

    Did you go along to see her Rev?

  54. Dr Jim


    I never mentioned Neale Hanvey until my post 3.35pm and you’ve set others up to reply to a post that did not contain one word about Neale Hanvey, see my post on that subject 3.35pm

    Whatever you may think are reasons for what others may do when they do them you nor many actually know, but as I said in my post 3.35pm the press is interested in anti semitic stories right now and GRA is I’m afraid a non topic for around 98% of the population so there’s no traction in that for the press

    The only posts I have written today were 2.21pm and 3.35pm
    so I have no idea where you came up with words I didn’t write

  55. Jack Murphy

    Ian Brotherhood at 3:21 pm.
    Thanks for the link[s]:

    Re BBC Scotland’s Kaye Adams

    I would recommend all visitors to Wings read Mr Brotherhood’s Post.

    There are indeed questions to be answered…

  56. Scott

    Dr Jim says:
    10 December, 2019 at 3:35 pm
    The First Minister can do nothing else but publicly distance herself from Neale Hanvey if she did not the onslaught from the media would be that Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP are anti semites

    My on thoughts as well if the FM was to come out and back Neale she would be crucified by the BBC and all MSM,I still think she backs him but must not say as much.
    Why it that the BBC was rushing about hounding Neale but not any of the others who have be caught out oh I forget the BBC is so anti SNP do anything to show them in a bad light.
    Come on the people in Neale’s constituency vote SNP.

  57. North chiel

    “ Ian Brotherhood @0321 p.m.” Interesting “ revelations” as regards Kaye Adams. I seem to recall some time ago that she was involved in making a “ documentary “ or similar at GCHQ .? Does any other posters recall this or similar ? She obviously has links to the “ London media crowd” and if she was indeed “ working” at GCHQ in her “ media” capacity, then long term suspicions about her “ impartiality “ Might well indeed be called into question . Especially as regards her “ phone in design and format “ ?

  58. Terry callachan

    Who’s word will I take about when a Scottish independence referendum will take place




    I choose SNP

    Why ?

    Because SNP , as things stand right at this time , will decide when the Scottish independence referendum will take place , WOS certainly will not decide when it will happen .

  59. John H.

    I believe that Nicola Sturgeon will get us a referendum next year, or at the very least, set up the conditions to get one. If she fails she will be replaced, no doubt about that. I have to believe that she will succeed.

  60. shug

    At the end of the day the people of Scotland need to show what they want at the election on Thu

    If the SNP do not do well the people of Scotland deserve everything that is coming at them

    I just hope they dish out the cuts to the cohorts that voted for the union first

    Prescription charges for the over 60, end to bus pass, visas for NI Rangers fans every time they want to travel to a match and an end to the fishing industry

    Bring it on I say

  61. Capella

    Lo – the SNP Christmas Carol, with Alan Cumming – watch

  62. kapelmeister

    Figures out show a 39 year high for primary teacher numbers in Scotland achieved by the SNP government.

    Nothing on the BBC Scottish web pages. Now there’s a thing.

    Still, that’s bound to be the lead story on Call Kaye. Not.

  63. robertknight

    You don’t need Gerry Hassan to tell you what Yoo-Kaye Adams thinks of the SNP. Ten minutes spent listening to her show will inform you just as easily.

  64. boris

    Further aiding “Better Together” the studiously impartial BBC provided Gordon Brown with an unprecedented four hours of blanket media exposure allowing him to deliver a long and rambling speech to a captive Scottish television viewing public.

    Brown’s widely promoted rhetoric proved to be successful when, a few days later, faced with the reality of a vote a number of Scots expressed a preference to retain the Status Quo.

    Events since have exposed the cynical behaviour of politicians who conspired together across the political spectrum agreeing a promise of “Devomax” withe the knowledge it would not be delivered.

    Yet again the political maxim of “delay is the most invidious form of denial” was successfully applied and Westminster prevailed.

  65. mr thms

    “Journalists working for Newsquest titles in Glasgow have voted in favour of strike action over job cuts.

    The action would affect The Herald, The Herald on Sunday, the Glasgow Times, The National and the Sunday National.”

    Perhaps the Scottish Government should intervene?

  66. Republicofscotland

    Terry @4.39pm.

    In all fairness to the Rev, he’s opining as to when it won’t be held, not to when it will be held.

  67. Albaman

    “Divide and Conquer”
    I thought that was what you did to your opponents?!.

  68. Dr Jim

    When you campaign against the First Minister you campaign against Independence and If I were a newspaper editor for an anti SNP paper that’s the angle I would be using in my headline, but for one thing the country at large has virtually no interest in what this blog or most others say because it’s just not interesting enough for the majority of ordinary voters, but if they ever think it might be then that’ll be a different story

  69. Dan

    FFS, just back in and read this.
    Not ideal after yet another full day campaigning in high winds and rain getting soaked to the fuckin skin.
    Another shift tomorrow and then it’ll be polling day where I’ll be seeing to 3 polling stations.
    Why am I doing all this? Because I am striving for Scotland to govern itself. Even if I have several issues with the party that I am campaigning for, they are still the current best vehicle.
    Once this election is out the way I hope to have a moment of spare time and raise the matter of the few issues I have with the party.

    Anybody carping from the sidelines slagging off the only current vehicle we have think they can do better, step the fuck up then, go on, get off your fuckin arse right now and see how far you get putting in the infrastructure to even begin to put a serious political contender together.
    Think it’s a piece of piss?… Reality check… I’ve spent the last month pretty much full time covering a rural area about 10 miles square.
    That area is full of diverse people covering all walks of life, they all see things differently and use different methods to receive their information.
    Anybody that thinks they can reach and influence this area whilst sitting on their arse using the internet is going to be sadly let down.

    Nobody ever stop to think that the SNP are fudging around the issue because they are still waiting to see a vote share for them that would give them the confidence to proceed in a more direct manner on the path towards Indy?
    Only a delusional idiot would progress into a fight with a powerful adversary without knowing they had the people behind them for hauners.

  70. Ottomanboi

    The SNP ought to make the price for ‘being cooperative’ considerably more executive power to Holyrood with Scottish sections in British embassies.
    The party should be pushing the Brits precious union to the maximum. The cracks need to be stressed to breaking point.

  71. Republicofscotland

    Dan @5.14pm.

    Well said Dan, I thank you for your commitment, and hard work.

    I’m sure many, many others feel the same.

  72. HandandShrimp

    The BBC reputation has taken a mighty kicking this election. I’m not sure that recovery is going to be easy. Johnson could scrap the licence and make it a subscription service and many of us who would have defended the organisation in the past will just shrug. I probably wouldn’t take a subscription either.

  73. wull

    I haven’t much clue in the midst of all this speculation about the timetable, concerning how or when Indyref2 will take place. Too many imponderable factors all at once – and no crystal ball to give any of us any certainty.

    For now, I do nevertheless remain very confident that Indyref2 will happen during the present mandate. Which is to say by or before mid-2021, during the lifetime of this Holyrood parliament.

    If I were to hazard a guess, it would be just that – pure, unfounded guesswork. And if I were a betting man as well as a pure guesser (although I am none of these) my money would be on the Spring of 2021 – March or April.

    That doesn’t really mean anything – as a prediction, it could be upended any time. Whether by Indyref2 taking place a bit earlier than that, or a bit later.

    And it won’t matter much whether the actual ‘upending’ takes place because of the SNP tripping over their own legs or because of some massive (but not unexpected) foul, or series of fouls, on the part of one or another of the unionist Parties …

    Or because the whole lot of these Parties – true to form, and consistent with their slogan (the dirty dogs!) – foul ‘together’.

    But even if the foul foulers do successfully ‘do the dirty’ on all of us, and manage to thwart all plans for Indyref2 prior to the 2021 Holyrood elections, that won’t be ultimately disastrous for the cause. At that point, won’t the 2021 all-across-Scotland Holyrood election itself BECOME Indyref2.

    The Unionists and their project are more stuck than we sometimes imagine. Whatever constitutional tricks they try to pull to stop Indyref2 will pretty quickly rebound on them. Even if they try to suppress the Scottish parliament, which is not impossible, the likely consequence would be a significant and substantial – maybe even a stupendous – rise in support for independence.

    They might be able to cause a minor delay or two, but they can’t finally win. Like their own Canute, they can’t turn back the waves of the sea. (And if you object to my calling Canute ‘their own’, on account of the fact that he was Danish, when you look back at it the question arises: which English monarchs, ever since 1066, have not been ‘foreigners’, if not immediately then, at least, in their ancestors and forebears?)

    We certainly make mistakes. But they – poor souls – they just can’t help it: THEY keep making even bigger ones than we do.

    I don’t know exactly when the breakthrough will come, but I am not too worried about it. Because I am sure that it will.


    Round and round the scunnered Scots,
    The foul-mouthed foulers ran.
    They tripped and fought and lied a lot
    And tried out every scam.

    But still the Scots cam back again:
    To lie down, they wid not.
    They lost the ba’, gie’d it awa’,
    But on they foch’t, … on went the gemme …

    An’ then …
    the foulers fouled themsel’s,
    An a’ their lies gie’d aff thir smells!
    They couldnae kick, an’ nae mair pass
    As a’ their muck ran oot their as* …

    Undone, the Yoon team: whit a sight!
    Slitherin’ aroon’ in their ain ‘sweet’ sh*te.
    They couldnae stan’, far less play fair …
    Their balloons went doon …
    ran oot o’ air!
    The Scots had the stamina, took back control:
    Into the net, they rolled … goal upon goal.

    ‘The game’s a bogey’,
    cried the foulers, leaving the field:
    ‘A’body’s seen through us:
    our lies and their stink now stand revealed.’

    ‘That’s the story’,
    cried the Scots, ‘Truth wins through!’
    When, finally,
    tried with resilience,

    Do NOT despair!

  74. Dr Jim

    Good man yourself Dan

  75. wull

    In that last post, I had some of the lines in the doggerel arranged differently, but when I posted it the format wouldn’t take that arrangement … and it really doesn’t matter!

    No amount of re-arranging the lines (however pretentiously) will turn doggerel into anything other than just that – doggerel! Poetry it is not! Prophecy neither …

    But it might just (possibly) make someone or other laugh … Which will be OK.

    But if, instead, it makes you despair (also very possible) just scroll down, and ignore …

  76. Terry callachan

    This is very interesting covering the differing ways that the britnat establishment are trying to undermine democracy in England & Wales… and in Scotland
    Read it all

    You will recognise the points made by Tommy Sheridan–powerful-piss-on-us–the-media-tell-us-its-raining/

  77. Terry callachan


    Well done man
    Brilliant , Scotland needs you

  78. Terry callachan

    The britnat stronghold is weakening
    You just need to consider how many changes to their leadership has happened in Scotland since the Scottish independence referendum 2014

    Th britnat newspapers are losing loads of money
    Hardly anyone buys them
    Piles of the stuff left in supermarkets every day
    When was the last time you seen a person reading a newspaper ? On the bus in a cafe etc hardly any

    BBC colluding with the britnat newspapers sending BBC staff to work for the newspapers so that the newspapers and the BBC can coordinate their lies
    BBC license payers paying billionaire owners money through the transfer of these BBC paid staff to newspapers , scandalous , but neither are going to report it are they.

    Support Scottish independence
    Keep on doing what you are doing
    For the cause

  79. Stephen Graham

    Years only last a few weeks these days anyway. I guess I could wait just a bit longer to see their smug little faces wiped clean.

  80. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “So far fair enough, it’s a matter of judgement how that pans out. But your deliberate use of the loaded word “lie” directly asserts – and you know fine well, or ought to anyway from your late experience, of the importance of the use of words – that the SNP leadership is behaving dishonourably and that it has either no intention of having indyref in 2020, or has itself made a definitive judgement there is no realistic prospect but pretends for public consumption anyway. Both of which amounts to the same thing: that the SNP leadership is deliberately setting out to deceive the public and not merely suffering from its own self-deception. This is the only possible interpretation one can make on your use of that poisonous word.”

    Yes, I agree, it is.

  81. K1

    So you ‘are’ saying that the SNP are ‘deliberately’ with intent lying to the population in Scotland?

    That this is in fact calculated?

    Did Alex Salmond tell you something privately that you are unable to confirm publicly about the hierarchy in the SNP that relates to this certainty of your accusation of the SNP deliberately lying to the Scottish electorate?

  82. Terry callachan

    Just watched a tv advert on German tv

    Boris Johnston knocks on a door a couple sitting inside watching tv
    The woman who looks vaguely familiar answers her door
    Boris on her doorstep is holding several large placards and a cassette player
    The first placard he shows her says “ say it’s carol singers “
    Just then her partner shouted to her at the door who is it ?
    She shouts back carol singers

    Boris then switches his cassette player on and it plays carol singers singing silent night

    Then he showed various placards showing
    We only need 12 more seats to get a majority
    Vote conservative on the 12th

    She smiles
    He walks away with his placards and cassette player and says to the camera
    Let’s get brexit done

    Pathetic , cringeworthy

    Must be an advert showing in England

  83. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “So you ‘are’ saying that the SNP are ‘deliberately’ with intent lying to the population in Scotland?

    That this is in fact calculated?”

    Yes, I am.

  84. K1

    Okay you answered the first 2 but not the 3rd.

    This is just ‘your’ analysis then? That it ‘must’ be ‘deliberate’ if you follow the illogic of their position and all the factors that you have outlined before in previous articles on the matter.

    You’re just stating it more bluntly in this article, yes?

  85. K1

    Can I ask ‘why’ it is’ deliberate’ and not just false idealism on their part?

  86. HandandShrimp

    Bob Dylan got there long before Johnson.

    I’m on the pavement
    thinking about the Government

  87. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Tories phoning undecided voters in Aberdeenshire tonight.

    Very US of A and doubt the phone bank is locally based.

    Wonder how the election spend per constituency will be accounted for?

  88. William Purves

    The Supreme Court upheld the ENGLISH claim of rights that the Parliament was sovereign. This was written into the Treaty of the Union of Parliaments. The Scottish claim of rights that the Scottish people are sovereign was also written into the Treaty. This was agreed in 1698 before the Treaty was signed. The Supreme Court would have to uphold Scotlands claim.

  89. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    I’m NOT making a statement either way here, but if this was true:

    “Did Alex Salmond tell you something privately that you are unable to confirm publicly”

    then I couldn’t bloody well confirm it publicly now, could I?

    Jeezo, readers. Use your brains.

    But regardless of that, it’s a lie because Nicola Sturgeon can fucking well count just the same as I can.

  90. ScotsRenewables

    This site will happily take a £500 bet with any reader that there won’t be an indyref next year,

    Hmmm . . . hope that’s not money that’s donated to you, because that is nmost definitely not what your donors had in mind Stu.

  91. Famous15

    I think the SNP leadership have a better grasp of Scots Law than you have Stu.

    Lord Cooper will be birling in his grave at the thought that the Treaty of Union is otiose.

    I suppose one view of your opinions is that the Electoral Commission could never see you as an ally of the SNP as you set up your own party. However you might be overdoing the doing!

  92. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Hmmm . . . hope that’s not money that’s donated to you, because that is nmost definitely not what your donors had in mind Stu.”

    It’s pretty irrelevant, because there’s no fucking way I’m going to lose that bet.

  93. Colin Alexander

    To everything there is a season…a time to speak and a time to keep silence.

  94. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Lord Cooper will be birling in his grave at the thought that the Treaty of Union is otiose.”

    Not a clue what you’re on about or how it relates to anything I’ve said.

  95. Craig P

    >>Helen Yates:

    my guess. we have thrown away the best chance we will ever have of gaining Indy. only time will tell of course and if you still have hope then more power to you.

    The union is borked. It might stagger on a bit longer, but Scotland is getting independence whether it wants it or not. Don’t mistake the union’s death throes for signs of life.

  96. dadsarmy

    Meanwhile some of us are doing our very best in our own way for Independence, by doing our best to try to get the most possible SNP MPs + Neale Hanvey elected, so Unionists like Batshit Jill and Pamela Nash and Carjack Loanshark can’t say the SNP have no mandate, and give the SNP one last chance to hold Indy Ref 2 in 2020.

    With just one full day more to go of campaigning, or holding the fort against the assault of the unionists on Independence, the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon, hold your nose if you need to and


    Or forever kiss your arse and Independence goodbye.


  97. Robert J. Sutherland

    Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 18:01,

    That’s the allegation covered, then, but if it’s the truth, where’s the actual proof…?

  98. Gfaetheblock

    I am surprised by the continued support for Neal Hanvey.

    There is no allegedly here, he has admitted to posting and using anti Semitic tropes and language.

    If there is X SNP MPs + Hanvey or X SNP MPs, it really makes little practical difference, especially as Hanvey will have been beaten by labour, who the SNP will be supporting if there is not a Tory government.

    But is Hanvey is a MP, he will be a constant reminder of the SNP antiemetic episode, something I am sure the leadership want to fade in the memory of the electorate.

    Related, interesting to see the purge of Gracebrodie tweets by SNP luminaries on Saturday, almost like they were all ordered to….

  99. John

    Very well said Dan , a true nationalist, a foot soldier extrodanair, it is you and all foot soldiers that will help win people over to independence , hope Friday sees your hard work pay off .

  100. dadsarmy

    For anyone fending off the inevitable uneducated “The SNP should spend more on the NHS”, here’s the gen:


    Total expenditure by the Scottish Government 2019-20 = £42.6bn.

    Spending on health and sport = £14.3bn = 33.6%
    FINANCE, ECONOMY AND FAIR WORK = £5.3bn = 12.5%
    EDUCATION AND SKILLS = £3.4bn = 8.1%
    JUSTICE = £2.7bn = 6.4%
    highest of other categories is

    remaining percent 3.2% = £1.3bn.

    So where do these unionist clowns think the money is going to come from – frontline council servies – bearing in mind all the ScotGov can borrow is a few hundred million to cover any shortage of income tax outturn?

    And not just clowns, the deliberate arsehole lying biased fake news BBC Tories?

  101. Gary

    Stu is 100% correct. The snp are blowing the chances of indy. My local snp mp candidate leaflet had the word independence once, and that was tvcked down at the bottom of page 2. Plenty of Stop Brexit crap though.

    Scotland voted to remain so of course we should fight for that, but only by fighting for independece to achieve it, not by saving England and Wales from self harm!!

    Stopping brexit invalidated the 2016 manifesto. WTF are the SNP playing at.
    Ad a long standing SNP member I’m disgusted at the tactics.
    The unionist remainers are not going to do scotland any favours if brexit is stopped. And dont delude yourselves if you think the Spanish state loving EU will either.

    Come on Stu….start the wings party.

  102. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “That’s the allegation covered, then, but if it’s the truth, where’s the actual proof…?”

    The proof is arithmetic, but feel free to disbelieve me if you want. After all, I’ve clearly been lying to you all these years.

  103. Col

    The solution is obvious, ask for an S30, get it refused, then go for an illegal one, set the date 6 months after 2021 Scottish election. Then 2021 Scottish election becomes a defacto agreement that that’s ok with the population, then have it without an S30 providing the 2021 Scottish election bags enough Snp, greens etc to prevent unionists from preventing the referendum. Job done. Of course the 2021 election will be a hurdle, but if it can’t be jumped then neither can the referendum so it doesn’t matter.

  104. Craig Macinnes

    Jesus wept Stu! I’m a big fan but give it a rest with the anti-SNP crap! Let’s just see what happens first ok? Because like it or lump it the SNP are the only credible way of getting independence as things stand.

  105. dadsarmy

    The proof is arithmetic

    No, it isn’t, unless we’re working with a calendar with only 6 months in a year.

    It’s really very easy.

    EU Ref 2 in the unlikely event it happens – May 7th 2020.

    Indy Ref 2 – Sep 17th 2020.

    Plenty of time before, between – and after.

  106. K1

    ‘I’m NOT making a statement either way here, but if this was true:

    “Did Alex Salmond tell you something privately that you are unable to confirm publicly”

    then I couldn’t bloody well confirm it publicly now, could I?

    Jeezo, readers. Use your brains.

    But regardless of that, it’s a lie because Nicola Sturgeon can fucking well count just the same as I can.’


    Yes, I’m aware that you can’t answer it, but I wanted it our there as a direct question obviously. So it is in fact the case that:

    ‘This is just ‘your’ analysis then? That it ‘must’ be ‘deliberate’ if you follow the illogic of their position and all the factors that you have outlined before in previous articles on the matter.

    You’re just stating it more bluntly in this article, yes?’

    I was hoping for a scoop…y’know a wee slip of ‘other sources’ rather than just you reiterating over and over again what your opinion was. Which is fine, but as others keep saying, we have little alternative but to vote for the SNP.

    The fact is less than 2 days before the GE you are just reiterating what you have already stated on articles and on twitter for the past couple of months. Not sure what response you want, as any probing questions just get us telt to ‘use your brains’.

    You ‘believe’/’think’/’do your arithmetic’/’opine’ that the SNP hierarchy are lying to the public in Scotland.

    What do you want us to use our brains for when your brains have done all the working out, so basically, believe what you say?

    And then what? What is it you want to happen here Stuart?

    All that will come of this is a bunch of us believing you and a bunch not, so what?

    Vote Tory, vote Labour, vote no one…cause they’re all lying bastards?

    I’ve barely a shrug left in me from shrugging at all the piss pouring down on us all…and now here’s some more piss, the SNP are shite?

    It’s just so fucking pointless and all you want to do is make stupid fucking bets…*shrug*.

  107. dadsarmy

    Mmm, from The National’s main webpage:

    “Better Together fan Campbell retweets The National’s front page”

    turns out it’s ALISTAIR Campbell.

    There again, if the cap fits …

  108. Derek Rogers

    Rev. Stu’s view that the SNP is selling us out is consistent within itself, and in line with NS’s behaviour. This doesn’t mean that it’s right, just that there’s no observable counter-evidence.

    He was asked of his interview with AS (above, 6:48pm), “Did AS tell you something decisive but private, which you can’t reveal?”. His answer – I paraphrase – was, “Bloody silly question. If I couldn’t reveal it then, then I can’t reveal it now.” What he didn’t say, but could have, was “AS told me no such thing.” Ask yourself why he didn’t say that.

  109. boris

    Hmmm! The Rev is under the cosh from more than a few “Wingers” and rightly so!! If he was an SNP supporter/member which he not. He supports with fervor the struggle for an Independent Scotland and any deviation which might threaten delay or deviation from that goal clearly gets up his nose. So guys register what he writes and refrain from supplying ammunition to those who would wish to do us “wingers” harm.

  110. Robert J. Sutherland

    Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 19:42,

    That’s not proof, Stu, that’s supposition. It doesn’t even pass the Dugdale test of reliability. (You’re definitely letting your standards slip!)

    It’s not that you’re “lying”, or anything so emotive, it’s just that you’re not necessarily in possession of all the relevant facts, and making a prejudgement about events that haven’t happened yet. Adding up 2+2 to make 22, then assuming that some other people are making the same calculation as you, then – what’s much worse – assuming that they’re consequently downright cheating about it. Well, it ain’t necessarily so, and your calculation ain’t necessarily right either.

    But if you have a recording like the one of that Labour MP “spilling the beans” about a likely loss the other day, or you can quote some SNP insider with first hand experience who’s willing to swear publicly on a bible to back you up, then you’re on. Otherwise it’s just presumption on your part.

  111. Robert J. Sutherland

    boris @ 20:36,

    Hmmm! That twitting about “doing harm” swings both ways.

    I for one will brook no suggestion from anyone that I’m any less impatient for progress than Stu. I’ve had plenty of arguments myself with the perennial delayers on here who seem to think that time will do all the heavy lifting. It won’t. You don’t get progress by relying on fond fantasies, it’s true, but neither do you get it by stabbing the SNP in the back, member or not, literally a day before a very crucial election. That’s plain misguided at best, and worse if done with malice aforethought.

  112. cynicalHighlander

    @Dr Jim

    I never put says folowed by a bit in italics I was just refering to “creative” in your post as you seem incapable of thinking for yourself as you bow to the almighty Sturgeon.

    She has surrounded herself with a bodyguard of woke enthusiants willing to defame anyone who rejects their god given right for trans men to call themselves women for access to womens safe places for their own benefit only.

    Hence why the FM has not once but twice in the MSM voiced her opinion urging voters to reject Neil Hanvey and vote for a unionist who she feels is more agin to her beliefs which isn’t independence for Scotland but for trans men.

    I’ll be voting SNP on Thursday not with joy but with a heavy heart as 3 years wasted by a Man an wife team running the SNP that benefits their futures not Scotlands.

    The only reason the general public aren’t aware of this sinister plot by the trans community is because they have ignored it and it will come back to bite the SNP on the arse mark my words. Maybe you could define a women for us mere plebs.

  113. Col

    I think most of us know that things probably have to get a lot worse before they get better. Better meaning indy of course. I go from being extremely impatient to thinking if we’re to secure our indy we need to be damn sure we’ll win. It could be a far longer wait if we narrowly miss a second ref

  114. Graham Fordyce

    When I was a wee boy, my mum once said to me: “Graham, in this uncertain world, you can’t be sure of anything.”
    I remember laughing at the tautology, but I’ve never forgotten what she said and it didn’t take too many years before I realised the wisdom.
    That is one reason I am sceptical about your predictions. The other is the confidence with which they are made.

  115. Willie

    Let’s all wait and see what Thursday brings.

    Things change and if the SNP get an increased vote and an increased number of seats who knows how things may turn.

    Maybe we don’t need a section 30 hows-your-father. It is a made up construct just like the 40,50 or whatever percent rule comes up from the King of Tonga, or his ruling Tribal Council.

    Independence is taken not requested on bended knees.

    But for now, let’s all get out and vote SNP on Thursday.

  116. twathater

    The debate , the biased bullshitting corporation just can’t help themselves , even on the opening credits they have to reinforce the disdain and condescension they have for Scotland’s electorate and its First Minister by introducing the lesser beings before her

    I feel the FM missed an open goal when the young english guy spoke about federalism she should have introduced the VOW and the lies spouted by the clunking fist then the liebour party voting against all the powers at the smith commission but overall I think she came out the winner

  117. Waldo

    Bryan Weir says:
    10 December, 2019 at 12:22 pm
    ” FFS. The election is two days away!

    Wind your neck in and give us all a break.”

    He can’t. Proving that Stu Campbell is right is more important than anything else.

  118. K1

    ‘So guys register what he writes and refrain from supplying ammunition…’

    seriously…..’eat yer porridge’

    Piss off Boris.

  119. Dan

    John says: at 7:38 pm

    Very well said Dan , a true nationalist, a foot soldier extrodanair, it is you and all foot soldiers that will help win people over to independence , hope Friday sees your hard work pay off

    Cheers John (and others that thanked me). It’s really not necessary though. I highlighted what I have been doing only to make the point that there is a huge effort by many other highly committed volunteers who are attempting to forward our cause. All of them are as equally or more deserving of praise than I.
    Numerous YES hubs and groups are now up and running all over Scotland only because of the huge effort and determination some people have committed to make this happen.
    We all do our bit in whatever way we can, be it on the ground or online. The collective efforts move us all forward.

    I will say I am not a natural nationalist though. I’m more of an anti-corruptionist.
    Because of our particular circumstances in this UK setup, the best tools we have to address the corruption is through our political status that offers us a path, albeit set with an array of traps and hindrances, that may allow us to free ourselves from the chains we are currently bound by.

    This has been an interesting journey for me on various levels.
    It’s been an educational experience reading up and broadening my knowledge on all sorts of relevant subjects.
    It’s been a philosophical experience mulling over the conundrum of how we might best achieve our goals.
    It’s been a social experience interacting with the wider public, both face to face and online.
    It’s been a practical experience carrying out the various tasks involved in activism.
    And it’s been a rather disappointing experience to witness how a minority of people are still able to rule over the majority.

    Hopefully we’ll see how things pan out soon, but I will not sustain the level of input I have previously committed. I need to see some tangible progress. A jam tomorrow or carrot being dangled in front of a horse situation to keep me motivated will not suffice.
    I’ll make that call when I see fit, and if leaving the EU is stalled then I may look at the opportunity of moving to pastures new.
    That said if we begin lose our free at point of need healthcare provision then that is one less thing I need to consider if moving to another country.
    On balance, the shit, cold and damp Scottish winters probably do more to damage one’s health and well-being than living somewhere more temperate.
    We’ve only one life and may as well make the most of it. Arguing with meek Scottish dunderhieds will come a not so close second to sitting on a warm beach under an umbrella with a cool beer.

  120. K1

    Have you moderated my last comment Stu?

  121. K1

    ach….para pet is all one word in that moderated post…hit the askimet filter.

  122. mike cassidy

    Oh, look!

    We’re not the only ones hoping the SNP hold the balance of power.

    Nicola Sturgeon vows to use SNP influence in hung parliament to champion ‘world-leading’ LGBT reforms,

    (wouldn’t archive properly)

  123. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Mike Cassidy.

    There you go – archived at the Internet Archive!

    C’mon, Dan and I (and others) have been pushing the Internet Archive for months…

  124. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    ”It’s really very easy.

    EU Ref 2 in the unlikely event it happens – May 7th 2020.

    Indy Ref 2 – Sep 17th 2020”

    Righto, £500 then?

    Honestly, folks, if you think there’s one chance in a million of a second indyref in September 2020 I’ve been wasting my fucking breath here for the last eight years.

  125. JaMuR

    What about a £500 bet that the next wings fundraiser won’t beat the last tally Stuart?

  126. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    ”What about a £500 bet that the next wings fundraiser won’t beat the last tally Stuart?”

    What next fundraiser?

  127. Tony O"neill

    Imo, if there is a hung parliament, the labour party will try and do deals with the liberals rather than the snp.

  128. chicmac

    Stuart. What has happened to you?

  129. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    I got tired of twats abusing me for telling them awkward truths.

  130. grafter

    UDI, Yellow Vests………are you going to fight for it ?

  131. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Imo, if there is a hung parliament, the labour party will try and do deals with the liberals rather than the snp.”

    They definitely will, but it doesn’t look like the Lib Dems are going to have enough seats for that to be possible.

  132. Tony O"neill

    You never know Stu, the lib dumbs might win more seats than we all expect in inglund. ??

  133. K1

    So now your just censoring comments, fuck what has happened to you…

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