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Wings Over Scotland

Lord Pannick on the streets of London

Posted on September 24, 2019 by

So the Supreme Court has delivered its brutal verdict. The prorogation of Parliament was completely unlawful and now, in effect, never happened. Parliament is officially still in session. The same Parliament that has stupendously failed to solve Brexit for three years can reconvene and continue to fail to solve it. What now?

Jeremy Corbyn stood up a few minutes ago at the Labour conference and demanded that Boris Johnson stand down immediately and hold a general election, as did several other opposition leaders. Which, alert readers may recall, is what Johnson tried to do, twice, barely a fortnight ago, and was blocked by the opposition.

Presumably if he tries again, they all now have to cooperate and vote for it, even though the dissolution of Parliament would render the Benn bill requiring him to ask the EU for an extension first null and void. So there’ll be a general election held on the subject of “Who rules the country – the people or the courts?”, which is what Johnson wanted all along. Um, victory?


PS Fun trivia fact: UK electoral law requires 25 working days between the dissolution of Parliament and the date of a general election. There are exactly 27 working days (inclusive) between now and 31 October.

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721 to “Lord Pannick on the streets of London”

  1. BJ says:

    I spent a few days in the South of England in July and used Scottish notes in shops and an Indian Restaurant. Apart from a cursory glance at the note not one place refused to take my money. I wasn’t intentionally trying to be confrontational about the issue, I had genuinely never thought about the difference until after I was over the border. The only largish purchase I made was in an Aldi and there was no problem!

  2. Lenny Hartley says:

    Scott Finlayson, believe the Kinnock amendment says that if no deal they have to vote on the the May Deal with a few extra bits regarding workers rights. But as the Rev spelt out a few weeks ago, Boris sends the letter requesting an extension but makes clear to Europe that he has no intention of accepting a deal with a backstop . Its very unlikely that Europe would grant an extrnsion. What did Donald Tusk say in March when last extension agreed “Do not waste this time”

  3. Ken500 says:

    UK debt £1.78Trillion

    UK assets £8.8Trillion

    Scotland share 12% pro rata

    Scotland will not be leaving with any debt but quite a lot of assets. 5 times more assets than debt. Quite nice conclusive started package. To be going on with.

    The ECB will help out as well. They helped German unification. The self determination, self governance the Eastern bloc countries at the fall of the USSR. Now doing really well, as is Russia.

    The EU formed to stop war and starvation in Europe (world). One of the most successful organisation. UK/US/France suffered less in 11WW. They did not have enough of it. Still engaging in illegal wars, killing millions and causing the migration crisis in Europe. The EU has to pay for it. Cost Trillions. Far outweighing any contribution. The Westminster unionist sycophants destroying the world.

    Scotland can stop the Westminster unionists imbeciles. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other to vote as well.

    Stop the Westminster unionist sycophants breaking International Law, To line their pockets with illegal gains. Greedy nasty, lying evil criminals. Breaking the Law. They make the Law and break the Law. They think are above the Law. They are not, as recently explained. Complete and utter chaos as they ripe people off. They are a complete disgrace.

  4. Ken500 says:

    Gove is just lying. A complete and utter liar. Even his ‘former Tory friends’ can’t stand him. No wonder. A blatant lying opportunist. An utter disgrace. In Murdoch pocket. His wife a Daily Mail journalist. Another opportunist liar.

    Murdoch, the criminal liar sacked criminal Johnston for lying.

    The Non Dom tax evading MSM owners. Support Brexit. Most of them should be put in jail. Leveson recommendation still not introduced. The corrupt, illegal Press. In the Westminster unionists imbeciles pocket for money. To spread their nonsense and lies.

    Ditto the BBC Controlled for propaganda and lies by Westminster unionist Press office. They phone the editors, every day putting on the pressure. Ultimately to threaten to arrest the editors for non cooperation.

    The Guardian, the only paper of freedom of editorial. The ConDems put the cops in to threaten the Editir for printing the truth. The Snowden revelations. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The actions of a corrupt government. Designed to stop the truth,

  5. Clydebuilt says:

    The Peoples News

    The BBC tries to Strike Back with The Peoples News. (@Tern TV )

    Are there Peoples News for the other parts of UK?

    Steve Wright’s afternoon slot on Radio2 has started playing clips where the participants claim to be “Real People”

    Someone must’ve told them that people aint listenning no more.

  6. Abulhaq says:

    @Breeks 6:03
    I do not now believe the SNP has a secret plan. The leadership is winging it, hoping something will simply turn up.
    Sturgeon ought to go. She in her default, overcautious lawyer mode is not able to deliver the goods in the vicious, over heated environment of the new politics. We need someone who can square up to neo-unionism on its own assertive ultra-nat terms.
    Her couthie, scandified, rainbow vision of Scotland is naïve and totally off message. Her buddying up to the sworn enemies of our independence in pursuit of stop Brexit fantasies is inexcusable.
    Can we have Scottish nationalism’s balls back?
    Just returned from France. The grass is far from being very green on the other side. We could do with being less starry eyed about the EU; same opportunists and hucksters, same rheumy-eyed career politicians heads full of self-aggrandizing dreams. The liner Europa is in need of a complete overhaul too.

  7. ScotsRenewables says:

    Back in your BritNat troll box, Abulhaq

    No-one is listening to you.

  8. Cubby says:

    The National

    Front page headline:

    Civil servants preparations for Scotland becoming independent revealed by Tory FOI.They’re not happy (but we’re delighted)

    Will all the Doom mongers give it a rest now. No. I doubt it as some are just phoney independence supporters and the other genuine independence supporters just like to be self indulgent and criticise the SNP the only vehicle in town that will get our independence.

    The civil service are working on transition plans to an independent Scotland – started in 2017.

    Are you delighted with this news? Or are you a glass half empty person.

  9. Terry callachan says:

    Abulhaq…you said

    “I do not now believe the SNP has a secret plan. The leadership is winging it, hoping something will simply turn up.
    Sturgeon ought to go. “

    I disagree with this
    I think she does know what she is doing
    The first guiding principle is that Scotland has to be taken out of the EU before she can ACT
    That was what the mandate said

    Scotland hasn’t been taken out of the EU yet
    It’s a waiting game
    SNP are playing it well
    Patience is needed

  10. call me dave says:

    But…but Secret Indi2 plan revealed says The National according to a FOI request by the Tories.

    Yesterday the SNP was holding the beers as Boris begged for a VONC and Jeremy who could have didn’t. For reasons we all know.
    1: Can’t trust Boris to carry out the remit given
    2: He’d lose seats and Tories win darn Sarf

    Loose cannon Boris’ only chance is to prostrate before the wise public darn Sarf and con them again into a leave the EU scenario or he is toast!
    We’ve all seen the vox pops from darn Sarf the wise public most of them think their fathers fought the Germans etc etc and have’nt a clue.

    I’m waiting just like most here and it will happen’ another month and we’ll probably get to an end game a few last pawns to move first. 🙂

  11. Mark Fletcher says:

    This is no time for hotheads. This is no time for ‘squaring up’ to an opponent who is much too dangerous. There is no place for an ‘ultra-nat’ approach in Scottish politics.

    Some people have learned nothing. Let’s not get sucked in.

    Sturgeon is winning international approbation and I like her vision of Scotland. Turn your back on the leadership of the SNP if you like, spoil your ballot paper, shout your frustration to the four winds, criticise our European friends and allies but I think you will drive our cause backwards.

  12. Clyde says:



    No sense in firing the Indy Ref2 starting gun untill Brexit bites and affects polling/ opinions.

    Calling for Plan B to be discussed (made public) at conference is an act of betrayal, benefiting only the Unionist side.

  13. One_Scot says:

    To be honest we have all waited a long time for a conclusion to this farce, I think a few more weeks holding out until we see what happens on the 31st won’t kill us.

    Lol, the way things are going anyway I doubt there will be anyone left standing in Westminster come that date.

  14. Clydebuilt says:



    No sense in firing the Indy Ref2 starting gun untill Brexit bites and affects opinion / polling.

    Calling for plan B to be made public by discussing at conference was an act of betrayal, which would benefit the Unionist side.

  15. barpe says:

    Mark Fletcher says at 10-13

    Well said, wise words, we should all heed them. Thank you.

  16. ScotsRenewables says:

    Mark Fletcher says:
    26 September, 2019 at 10:13 am

    This is no time for hotheads. This is no time for ‘squaring up’ to an opponent who is much too dangerous. There is no place for an ‘ultra-nat’ approach in Scottish politics.

    Some people have learned nothing. Let’s not get sucked in.

    Sturgeon is winning international approbation and I like her vision of Scotland. Turn your back on the leadership of the SNP if you like, spoil your ballot paper, shout your frustration to the four winds, criticise our European friends and allies but I think you will drive our cause backwards.

    Top post. absolutely spot-on.

    Has anyone archived the video of Johnson berating the SG last night in HoC?

  17. Phil says:

    @Ken500 says: 26 September, 2019 at 9:00 am

    “UK debt £1.78Trillion
    UK assets £8.8Trillion
    Scotland share 12% pro rata”

    I hope some more wide ranging thinking would be carried out.

    How much of that debt is directly not in Scotland’s benefit or approval? How much of those assets are geographically Scotland’s, always were Scotland’s, always should be Scotland’s?

  18. Bob Mack says:

    “Water causes iron to rust.Water left untouched will stagnate. Inaction saps the vigour of the mind”.
    Da Vinci. Smart guy!!

  19. manandboy says:

    Meanwhile…England continues to self-destruction. The Brexit Avalanche moves further downhill, taking all kinds of credibility in Westminster politics with it. And it’s not stopping..

    Jennifer Arcuri personified London’s scrappy start-up scene
    Back in 2014, Silicon Roundabout stood for ‘fake it ’til you make it’, but not any more..

    A thread on the Jennifer Arcuri & Boris Johnson story & why it’s a bigger scandal than you think.

    Where to start?

    Thread to read. Grim. Really grim. But after this evening inParliament no one can be in any doubt about this man. He has shown his dark dark side tonight.

    And in the Twitter sphere, PMJohnson reaches a new low in the Hoc last night.

  20. Cubby says:

    “Patience is needed.”

    Patience has always been needed if you are a long term supporter of Scottish independence and the SNP ( the vehicle to achieve independence and not an aim in itself).

    I suspect that a lot of ex labour supporters (who now support independence) who were used to getting their own way in Scotland have not developed the need to realise that independence has always been about the long game.

    However, the good news for the impatient is that the long game will soon be coming to its natural end – Scottish independence – the end of the Treaty of Union 1707.

  21. Meg merrilees says:

    Scott Finlayson @8.30

    if I remember correctly there was a vote in the EU (last week?) very recently on whether they would grant us an extension and it was carried by about two thirds of the vote. Can’t remember the exact figures but I know the positive side tallied over 500 votes in support.

  22. manandboy says:

    With the installation of Mr Johnson at No 10 Downing Street, the Conservative Party didn’t so much choose a Prime Minister, as hire a wrecking ball & crane.

    With Boris Johnson’s past record, the trajectory of the learning curve for the UK electorate was always going to pass through this point. But the real question is, where is it going from here?

    One thing’s for sure, the answer will not include the word ‘better’.

    As in ‘Better Together’.

    Are you paying attention No voters?

  23. Meg merrilees says:


    I did wonder what was happening, back in the day, when the SNP held that late night discussion on the Claim of Right before an empty House of Commons and passed a vote, recorded in Hansard, that this House Supports the Claim of Right.

    Now we realise what they were up to.

    The claim of Right won the case for us in the court of Session since it clearly states that NO-ONE is above the law.

    That win in the court of Sessions won us the case at the Supreme Court and has put the
    irrefutable existence of Scots Law beyond any doubt.

    This is a solid rock on which to build the case beyond doubt ( as Nicola says) of the Right of Scotland to determine her own status and the news that the Civil service has been planning for the last two years for an Indy ref 2 has added oxygen to the debate.

    Sometimes slowly slowly catches the monkey and a good card player keeps their hand well hidden.

  24. One_Scot says:

    Imagine any reasonably minded person in Scotland watching the shambles and chaos of Westminster and thinking, ‘Yeah, you know what, I want theses people to run my country’

  25. manandboy says:

    The Tories jeer at the SNP over the so-called ‘divisions’ caused by having an Independence Referendum.

    These ‘divisions’ in Scotland however, pale into insignificance when compared to the hugely dangerous and damaging divisions in England caused by the Tories’ EU Referendum.

    So much so, that there is now a deep division between the Westminster Government and the Supreme Court. A division, caused, not so much by disagreement, as by contempt on the part of PMJohnson.

    As Johnson sinks ever lower into the mire of his lies & his contempt for all things decent and law-abiding, the Conservative Party follows him, fuelled by their own personal ambitions for wealth & power, at any price.

    None more so, than the Tory MPs and MSP’s in Scotland.

  26. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Mark Fletcher at 10.13 am

    Exactly and at the right time. There is a massive effort now going on to undermine the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon.

    We have the unionist press shouting about “splits in the SNP” when all we have is different ideas about how we go about getting independence,we get unionist journalists and commentators suggesting that more and more Scots “hate” Nicola Sturgeon, the exceptional Joanna Cherry is now slyly being used in the unionist media to undermine our FM.

    Our enemy is being assisted by the naive and gullible in our own party (and sadly some who are certainly neither of those things).

  27. ElGordo says:

    What happens if:
    – Johnson complies with the law and requests an extension
    – The EU then offers an extension
    – The UK does not accept (or reject)the extension offered

    The act only covers UK Gov requesting an extension?

    The UK Gov needs to accept the EU offer of the extension for it to be effected?

  28. ElGordo says:

    For the April extension:
    – May asked for one
    – EU said yes and offered one
    – UK EU Ambassador Tim Barrow officially accepted with a brief letter

  29. galamcennalath says:

    “Surrender”, “betrayal”, “capitulation” …. Johnson thinks he’s fighting Napoleon, Hitler, the Armada, Agincourt, and God knows where all. This level of Express-speak is totally unacceptable. Brexit is about getting sensible trade arrangements with friendly neighbours, not house to house, hand to hand fighting!

    And to invoke the name of Jo Cox, a Remainer and thoroughly decent person, is an utter disgrace.

    Trouble is, the hard line English Nationalists are cheering him on! What next? Weird salutes and goose stepping?

  30. admiral says:

    ScotsRenewables says:
    26 September, 2019 at 10:48 am

    Has anyone archived the video of Johnson berating the SG last night in HoC?

    Has anyone else noticed how Gove and Johnson are deliberately referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party?

  31. galamcennalath says:

    The conclude …

    – Johnson’s political capital much weakened
    – new withdrawal deal unlikely
    – extension likely

  32. ElGordo says:

    Its covered:

    Duties in connection with Article 50 extension

    (1)If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019 to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020, the Prime Minister must, immediately after such a decision is made, notify the President of the European Council that the United Kingdom agrees to the proposed extension.

    (2)If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019, but to a date other than 11.00pm on 31 January 2020, the Prime Minister must, within a period of two days beginning with the end of the day on which the European Council’s decision is made, or before the end of 30 October 2019, whichever is sooner, notify the President of the European Council that the United Kingdom agrees to the proposed extension.

    (3)But subsection (2) does not apply if the House of Commons has decided not to pass a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown within a period of two calendar days beginning with the end of the day on which the European Council’s decision is made or before the end of 30 October 2019, whichever is sooner

  33. Ken500 says:

    The SNP (Gov) are carrying out their mandate to the letter. A higher support for EU membership. No Brexit. Then an IndyRef with support continuing to increase. Prioritise according to the electorates wishes. One campaign at a time. A good strategy for any business or good management. To succeed. The demographics changes just as predicted,

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get someone to vote as well. For a better, safer, more prosperous world. A better place to be.

    MUP Alcohol deaths down. Less poverty. £Billions saved. A great strategy. Five years it took but totally worth it for health and prosperity. Labour were the only ones who did not vote for it. Shame on them. Killing off their own supporters, illegally. Unionist Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Costing Scotland dear. £Billions. That could be better spend or saved.

  34. manandboy says:

    Contrary to the Establishment’s own propaganda, the UK is ruled according to a system based on Class.

    As such, the idea that the UK is a ‘Democracy’, constitutes one of the English Establishment’s greatest propaganda successes.

    How on this earth, can anyone believe that a deeply Colonialist society can be considered ‘democratic’, when, by definition, a colony is forcibly created, and by force, maintained, for the ultimate purpose of exploitation.

    Such is Scotland. Legally, under the Act of Union, Scotland is not a Colony, but effectively and to all intents and purposes, it is TREATED as one. In the minds of the English Establishment and Ruling Class, Scotland is a fully owned or ‘colonised’ part of England. For the purposes of exploitation.

    In the UK, ‘democracy’ includes the right of succession to power and wealth; entitlement ; superiority, and an institutionalised division of wealth and power in favour of the Upper Class and forming The Ruling Class.

    It’s a rigged game. That’s what Scotland is up against. That’s why Independence is so hard to achieve. That’s why undermining the SNP/Independence Movement in any way is so seriously misguided.

    Democracy in Scotland? Don’t make me sick.

    “Whether you’re talking about your glee club or a powerful nation, the word democracy describes government based on participation of the people, either directly or through elected representatives.
    Democracy traces back to the Greek words demos, meaning “people,” and kratia, meaning “power.”

  35. Ken500 says:

    Johnston and Gove are toast. Will they last until October. Doubt it. They do not even like each other or their fellow Tories. An embarrassing hat trick. Loathed by all. The Tory unionists could not make a bigger mess a complete and utter shambles. They were fighting like rats in a sack in the HoC.

  36. skintybroko says:

    Mark Fletcher 10:13 – spot on, Meg Merrilees 11:21 – exactly. Nicola and the SNP are playing a blinder, you have to win the majority of the 60% who swither, 20 % are already entrenched No’s. 20% entrenched Yes its the 60% in the middle we need to convert to Yes and the SNP have to be seen to be acting on behalf of everyone and they are winning those hearts and minds. Boris and his cronies are adding gris to the mill and pushing more people to realise that independence s now the only way forward for Scotland.

  37. manandboy says:

    The ears of No voters, are packed with the wax of Westminster propaganda.

  38. callmedave says:

    Much navel gazing in the chamber now after the bear pit of yesterday. The chief culprit conspicuous by his absence. 🙂

    Boris and Cummings elsewhere plotting the next move as yesterdays belligerent approach, which was directed across the heads of MPs to the public, may not have had the desired effect.

    Various ‘names’ are listed which some suggest should be banned!


  39. Doug says:

    Johnson might believe, in his dreams, he’s another Churchill but he’s more like a tenth-rate Cromwell – determined on dictatorship.

    England’s civil war continues.

  40. callmedave says:

    Long time since I heard that quoted. “Kiss my Parliament” 🙂

    All very nice but Brexit looms.. “Do not waste this time!”

    Get on with some business. 🙁

  41. HYUFD says:

    Abulhaq Correct, Sturgeon is the Scottish Theresa May, an over earnest ditherer and technocrat, Boris is the British Alex Salmond, a charismatic and passionate campaigner prepared to fight to win

  42. manandboy says:

    Adapted, obviously.

    A man told a story of how he went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.

    Someone asked the man what this story meant.

    So the man explained. The seed is the idea of Scotland’s independence.

    Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then something comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be free. Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the idea of Independence with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
    But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

    Not surprisingly, I particularly liked the bit at the end, where he says, ‘those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.’

    Independence through persevering. I’ll buy that.

  43. Terry callachan says:

    This is the best
    Short explanation
    You will find anywhere
    About current British politics

  44. Doug says:

    Scotland should do all it can to intensify the civil war in England without getting involved in the actual fighting. Light the touch paper, stand back, enjoy the show and take advantage.

  45. Dr Jim says:

    Looks like the instructions to use populism as a strategy have made their way down to Holyrood now with Jackson Carlaw using the bending of the truth and the poor victim quoting as a way of getting the message out that it’s the people against the SNP

    Even the Greens jumped in with same style of attack on climate change when they sat on their hands and did nothing but at the same time use the *people power* approach to make a childish point where the rest of the world agrees and even praises the Scottish government

    Richard Leopard made a fool of himself by asking about wanting to change the Independence question meaning he acknowledges it’s going to happen so can he please rig the referendum before it happens

    We move out to the lobby where Bryan Taylor’s *journalistic chums* including the obligatory Tory supporting Mail *journalist* who makes a point of emphasising Jackson Carlaw’s populist pish and supporting it

    It looks like we’re heading for one side talking politics and the opposition waving pitchforks and flaming torches *on behalf of the people* of course

    It appears if you wave your arms around and use inflammatory language you must be right, as long as it’s all in the name of what the *people* want

    Frankenstein was responsible for the monster he created, the monster didn’t understand what was going on

    Nigel Farage Boris Johnson Jacob Reese Mogg are the monsters and they know what they’re creating just like Frankenstein, and he lied to the villagers also

    There was a German guy in the 1930s did the same thing

  46. McBoxheid says:

    The gravitas of members of parliament calling for sensitivity of expression and a deescalation of belligerence in the house has been noted in various points of order. Will this control the obvious mummery coming from the tory benches? No it won’t. They have run out of argument and realise their game is up.

    The opposition, apart from the SNP, have failed to call for an election yesterday and only the SNP have explained why. If a vote of no confidence was called and won, the tories will have run down the clock till the 31 Oct and avoided scrutiny.

    Why is that not made clear in the HoC, so that it is on record and reported on. At the moment, the tory ERG, while thoroughly respectless of the SC and the HoC’s unwritten rules of ettiquette are shouting the loudest and will be written about most in the MSM as defenders of the brexit cause in the most warlike and uncompromising way possible.

    They will be the cause of violent protest in England and possibly in parts of Glasgow as a result of their belligerent rethoric and they simply don’t care. They are trying to regain the agenda in order to force through their no deal agenda.

    Meanwhile the SG and Nicola Sturgeon are standing out as a shining example of how to behave and as she is an excellent example of good statesmanship and leadership to the electorate.

    Things are quickly coming to a head and the way it is being played out will only add to the independence cause. The brexiteers are being seen as completely out of control, Corbyn looks more and more like a frail old man, bewildered, out of his depth and no longer physically capable to lead the UK if he actually gets to form a government.

    Personally, I doubt the majority of people claiming to be party members that are calling for the SNP to get a move on, or Nicola to resign and hand over to Joanna Cherry are not SNP party members at all and most folk have seen though their pathetic attempts to damage the independence cause.

    Not long now. Just a little more patience is needed.

  47. Mark Fletcher says:

    How good is your knowledge of Roman history?

    Do you remember when Quintus Fabius Maximus was picked to lead the state because he knew not to be impetuous? As a high honour, they named him ‘Cunctator’ – you can translate that as ‘Ditherer’, if you like.

    Do you remember how, centuries later, the Romans dealt with that most potent of all adversaries Hannibal? Yes, they refused to fight him on his own terms.

    You see? Dithering and delaying are sometimes best.

  48. Dr Jim says:

    @McBoxheid 1:24pm

    Totally, the only people screaching crisis indecision division in the SNP are those who don’t want them to win

  49. Golfnut says:

    Nicola is at the very heart of the battle with westminster, she is not number 1 enemy of the state for nothing.

  50. callmedave says:

    Jings! No Parliamentary recess for the Tory conference.

    Shurley schome mishtake it’s not cricket. 🙂

    Bercow raises an eybrow!

  51. RobertTheTruth says:

    Of course, the only reason inconsistency and weakness on the part of the SNP leadership is pointed out is to diminish them…It could not be anything else, I mean they are in power, have a mandate and are dithering and quibbling openly.

    The denial here is pathological. ‘LA LA LA’ as old men revert to childhood covering their ears and chanting everything is fine, ‘you are all SNP baaad’. They demand you listen to them as they have no authority elsewhere in their lives. Retirement and loss of status destroys them so they spend all day here telling you what to think.

    Naive, gullible and worst of all – duplicitous. The SNP propaganda team are lying to you all. There is no plan, they are making it up as they go along. Faith based politics and emotional investment in an ideal, it won’t end well.

  52. Welsh Sion says:

    Quick publicity.

    Adam Price AM/AC (Plaid Cymru Leader) will be on the QT panel tonight from the Senedd. Other panellists include Gina Miller.

  53. Sandy says:

    Boris sees himself as another Churchill.
    I’m a fan of neither.Churchill was a WAR minister. As a peace-time PM, useless. However, they share some attributes, selfishness, disgusting turn of phrase, extreme bigotry & “my way” power amongst many other idiosyncrasies of an extremely unethical nature.
    People of England, BEWARE.

  54. galamcennalath says:

    Gove’s view of the Good Friday Agreement was that it was a “mortal stain” and “a humiliation of our army, police and parliament”, and that its 1998 endorsement on both sides of the border was a “rigged referendum”. Orange as a satsuma, it seems.

    So, we can assume he will be one of the Tories willing to sacrifice the Union for Brexit, NOT.

  55. dadsarmy says:

    So the Referendums (Scotland) Bill is going through Holyrood, Russell has ruled out any higher threshold than 50%+1, the wording will remain the same, Harvie is in full support. Meanwhile there’s a “leak” that the Civil Service in Scitland are preparing for Indy Ref 2 and Independence, disgraceful that the SNP Gov fought off the FOI until this point, though they have suddebly caved it seems and resleased the email. Disgraceful.

    Then there’s been Cherry & Co exercising the Scottish Court of Session to force BoJo back to the House of Commons to be totally humiliated and run away with his legs between his tail, which will be followed by a case for the Clerk of Court to sign on his behalf as he’s clearly incapable of even putting “X” in the signature box of the PREFORMATTED LETTER to the EU requesting an extension as SPECIFICALLY laid down by the Benn-thingy Act.

    Meanwhile there’s an SNP newspaper on my table “SNP Government lays groundwork for second independence referendum”, and I got a letter a couple of weeks back inviting me to the conference even though my membership lapsed in September 2017.

    So my conclusion is that the SNP have turned their back on Independence, have no further interest in it, are just comfortable with bums on seats, and are doing absolutely nothing about it at all, and Sturgeon and Russell MUST GO!

    Baaaad SNP!

  56. kapelmeister says:

    BoJo does compare to Churchill.

    That is, with Winston’s son Randolph Churchill.

    Spoiled, selfish, obnoxious, opinionated, reckless, irresponsible etc etc.

  57. Dr Jim says:

    Aye, the SNP are a cult say the folk who voted Labour because their Daddy voted Labour and his Daddy before him and all the way back to the first men

    Or they might be Tory supporters, a sectarian party that doesn’t win and can’t win and will never win in Scotland, but Aye the SNP are the cult

    Even without the coming referendum on Scotland’s Independence the SNP would still win the majority of seats because the soul of the core of Scotland has been made very clear by the voting patterns, Scotland is a centre left country and they like it that way, a country of no extremes

    So the extremists can bellow and boil but they can’t win because the majority of people are by nature fairly reasonable and will always choose the reasonable option where it’s offered now that they’ve seen the difference to what was forced upon them before by all three of the Tory parties disguising themselves in different colours

    All of which were the colours of a domineering England

  58. callmedave says:

    Cherry doing a good job spreading light on the lack of a written constitution and reminding the Unionists of the Declaration of Abroath and Scots law.

    Also that in 2014 promises were made to Scotland which were broken. Where is the S30? 🙂

  59. Cubby says:

    Principles of Democracy Debate – H of Commons today.

    “This is a fundamental point the people must get the government they voted for and they must not get the government they didn’t vote for, that they can’t get rid of. This is a fundamental point related to the dreams we all have of a better society. It’s about the dignity of the individual and the right of every person to determine their future peacefully at the ballot box.”

    Fine words that I totally agree with. Spoken by an SNP MP this afternoon? NO

    No these are the words of Steve Baker Tory MP and Brexiteer. A member of the party that says no to Scotland for a section 30 and no Indyref2. A Scotland that gets governments (like his party) that Scotland did not vote for and can’t get rid off. What does that make Baker? Yes you guessed it another Tory hypocrite.

  60. galamcennalath says:

    There’s much more to the current far right populist rhetoric pitching ordinary folks against the elite.

    Johnson and friends know exactly what they are saying. The likes of Cummings will write the scripts.

    All sorts of vested interests are at play. Part of the plan is to increase people’s mistrust of academics, lawyers, judges, experts, and scientists. This helps with people’s susceptibility to the beguilingly simple far right messages. It allows the right to appear on the side of the ordinary person against the experts. It turns things around where it is the expert who has the hidden agenda,

    Obvious examples are climate change deniers, creation ‘science’, and vaccine scepticism. The propagation of such pseudo science has a synergy with spreading other far right policies which in fact are harmlful to ordinary folks. People are encouraged to believe immigrants take out more than they put in. Or, health and safety regulations are somehow negative ‘red tape’. Clearly a lot of people fall for all this dangerous shit.

    Populist far right politics require a significant part of the population to lower their guard and be willing to believe bollocks.

  61. Dr Jim says:

    @Cubby 4:15pm

    I love how they manage to describe Scotland as a region of the UK *Our country* then go on to talk about England as *The country*

    Even when they lie they misrepresent the lie about their own lies

    Not to mention the geography and history lessons they must have ducked out on

  62. galamcennalath says:

    Cubby says:

    This is a fundamental point the people must get the government they voted for and they must not get the government they didn’t vote for

    Which is the whole problem of their beloved WM and its corrupt system in a nutshell.

    Though of course that Tory pillock doesn’t see it, or pretends not to see it.

    No party has won more than 50% of the vote in a WM general election since Stanley Balwin’s Tories in 1931 when they polled an astonishing 55.0%.

    The currrent government, led at the time by May, got 42.4% of the votes. 57.6% of UK voters did not want a Tory government.

    The sad reality of the dreadful WM FPTP system is that the people always get the government they didn’t vote for!

    It sucks. Scotland can do so much better.

  63. Lenny Hartley says:

    Kapelmeister my Granny threw Randolph Churchill out of the hoose during WW2
    He was an officer in the Commando’s who were training on Arran, a few men were billeted in the family home as four sons away at War so they had room. They had been out on the Mountains all night on exercise and were kipping, he came storming into the house and demanded that the men get up out of bed. My granny grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and threw him out of the house ??
    Fitzroy Mclean is scathing about him in his autobiography, a spoilt brat by the sounds of it.

  64. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny Hartley –



  65. Proud Cybernat says:

    Any of the legal eagles here know if there is a difference between the English “Order of Mandamus” and Scottish “Nobile Officium”?


  66. Lenny Hartley says:

    Panelbase politics poll on the go, got screened out very early on.

  67. Cubby says:

    Principles of Democracy Debate HofCommons

    Luke Graham the Britnat Scot Tory MP trying to brand the SNP as a blood and soil nationalism. All nationalism is bad he says. They want to break up our country he says very ably demonstrating his own British Nationalism. British Nationalism the nationalism that does not exist in Britain according to the Britnats. It would be laughable if it was not so sad that these Britnats are so lacking in self awareness.

    They are not unionists ( so why do some independence supporters keep on calling them that?). They are British Nationalists. The Nationalism that dare not speak its name. Well it’s about time all Independence supporters called the Britnats out on their hypocrisy about nationalism.

    They are British Nationalists not Unionists.

    PS there was an intervention from Graham’s pal the bampot Ross Thomson but his contribution is not worthy of wasting any time criticising it.

  68. kapelmeister says:

    @Lenny Hartley

    Great story Lenny. Randolph seems to have been able to alienate people easily. So, very much like clown Boris.

  69. A lot of negative SNP baaad armchair generals and even Brigade 77 type nonsense blogging on this chain of posts. SNP tractors, don’t really want independence etc etc ad nauseam. Painful to read on Wings.

    Ignoring all that tosh – the reality is that SNP has some hard choices at the moment – how is it going to get any of the English Tory parties to allow a second referendum? What leverage does it have on each of them ? And when is the ideal time to run to the country to ensure victory? At what point does the UK body politic collapse legally or morally so Scotland could depart legally without having to get permission from London? How do the mechanics of such an exit work so it could not be challenged under international law?

    there are so many variables it would make your head spin. The choices of elections are troublesome too

    – wait for 31st Oct and for no-deal to be withdrawn and trigger an election – what leverage would the SNP have over an incoming English Tory Government of any of the 3 hues?

    – wait beyond the 31st to stop the hard Brexit and wait to get a deal with the EU which would have to have an Irish backstop before triggering an election

    – or trigger an election now by voting with Boris, throwing England into chaos – would this help Scotland’s exit from the UK though?

    in any scenario they get a heap of seats off the Torys and hopefully labour

    But it seems to me that it would be better to hold out for an extension or a possible deal which will have to include a back-stop for NI keeping it both economically in the UK and in the common market

    In this case Scotland ceding from the UK could not be painted in such a dangerous light by the MSM as the SNP can say they want the best of both worlds – just like NI

    Probably why Unionists would prefer to flatten the UK economy than concede a special deal for NI

    Meanwhile Scotland has the government that is measurably delivering the best results in Britain and Ireland in each of the areas it has responsibility for – NHS – Police – Fire Service – Education at 4 different levels – social care etc and so on and so forth

    So will yeez feck off with the SNP baaad nonsense

  70. dadsarmy says:

    @Proud Cybernat
    It seems to have been renamed a “Mandatory Order” in 2004.

    It’s an order to force a body to do something, and failure to do so is contempt of court.

    On the other hand, the Inner House of the Court of Session doesn’t force a person to do it, the Clerk of Court does it on their behalf – a much more sure way of it being done.

  71. Vince Harvie says:

    You’ve presented a somewhat dulled analysis of this.

    Labour’s position is not to call for a general election now, that they opposed two weeks ago.

    Labour’s position is for Britain to seek and gain another Brexit extension, and then hold a general election.

    This is because if a general election is set now, parliament is dissolved – which would play into Johnson’s game of preventing parliament from blocking a no-deal exit.

    I have plenty of issues with Labour when it comes to Brexit, but this is not one of them.

  72. Hamish100 says:

    Robert the liar

    Nuff said.

  73. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The unionist bampots (on here a lot and all over the place)had better get their story together. Either the SNP is “banging on endlessly about independence” or it is dithering and not going on about it at all.

    Right guys -which one is it? What will you run with next ? What’s you Plan C now that Plan A and Plan B have failed?

    The bizarre and deplorable scenes in the Houses of Parliament yesterday did as much,if not more damage to those Tories stupidly sitting shouting and clapping for him as it did to Boris himself.
    Now we know where the OO get their guidance from.

    Contrast that pantomime with Nicola Sturgeon’s measured, coherent, generous and intelligent reaction when under really intense pressure.

  74. Proud Cybernat says:

    Thanks dadsarmy. Do you know what would happen if the body continues to refuse the Court Order in England i.e. they ignore the contempt of court and end up getting banged up, fined or whatever. Can the English court, ultimately, do the same as the Scottish Court? My guess is yes they can but it’ll be a much longer process hence why the petitioners (i.e. Joanna Cherry) is pursuing BawJaws thru the CofS which can, in situations where time is of the essence, offer a speedy remedy. That about it?

  75. dadsarmy says:

    @Proud Cybernat
    I don’t know but I suspect not. It’s a reason Cherry and Maugham are taking it to the Inner House of the CoS – only they have the power.

    Which will be another forward step if it comes off 🙂

    Mmm, according to wiki it’s unique amongst “British” courts:

    The jurisdiction of the Court of Session extends beyond statutory and common law powers, with the Court having an equitable and inherent jurisdiction called the nobile officium,[30] unique among British courts

    Wiki is not the ultimate authority all the same – nor is Severin Carrell who it references!

  76. galamcennalath says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The unionist bampots …. Either the SNP is “banging on endlessly about independence” or it is dithering and not going on about it at all. Right guys -which one is it?

    Very true. Their right hand doesn’t know what their other right hand is doing.

    Just guessing, but I reckon it could be playing to they two different audiences – Yes and No.

    They are trying to sow discontent, generate doubts, and cause fractures among Yes folk.

    They are also keeping the previously successful ‘no indyref’ message aimed at NOs going.

    The common element is each is an SNP attack. While the YES movement is much more than just the SNP, we do need the SNP to provide the democratic forum.

    They are running out of arguments against independence and there are no arguments left for their Union. They have almost given up any facts based campaigning and are completely emotion based now.

  77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 16:15,

    Yes, so very true. We’re suffocating under mountains of BritNat hypocrisy.

    Come the inevitable upcoming discussions about an S.30 request, someone should release a video like what CNN sometimes does in broadcast, put together “before” and “after” clips to juxtapose this kind of egregious partiality in a very visible and tangible way. I’m sure that would be very effective demonstration of the fundamental emptiness of the UKGov position.

  78. mike cassidy says:

    my Granny threw Randolph Churchill out of the hoose during WW2

    That one line justifies the existence of the internet, never mind this site.

  79. Cubby says:

    FMQs today at Holyrood Scotlands Parliament.

    “The people of Scotland will get the chance to choose a better future than Tory Brexit Britain.”

    The words of Scotlands excellent FM Nicola Sturgeon.

  80. yesindyref2 says:

    I see Indy supporters, errr, elsewhere, not Bella, calling Wings readers “acolytes”.

    Less of the “acolyte”, you heathen!

  81. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The memories of Randolph Churchill have just reminded me of this… I guess this thread is long enough to squeeze this in…

    I slept in the same bed as Julie Andrews. Not at the same time, I should add.

    When I was a bairn, I lived in Tay Street Lane, off Nethergate, around 300 yards from the Palace Theatre. All in Dundee. My Grannie lived upstairs in a much bigger flat. She was what was a termed “a theatrical landlady”, ie acts who were on at The Palace would lodge with my Grannie.

    One of the acts was Julie Andrews’ parents. The story is that they lodged with my Grannie, during their time at the Palace Theatre.

    The bed was one of those iron (steel?) constructions with a sprung bed that the mattress lay on. When we moved to St Mary’s, we were donated that bed (a year after my Grannie died) because we had an extra bedroom that needed a bed.

    Thus, I claim I shared a bed with Julie Andrews.

    Or maybe it’s just family folklore…

  82. cynicalHighlander says:

    I hear the sound of music. lol

  83. Meg merrilees says: – scroll to first video in House of Commons.

    Joanna Cherry doing her stuff making a top statement with a carefully crafted argument including the Claim of Right and the Declaration of Arbroath to point out that the Supreme Court ruling was not a new law – as some have suggested – it is in fact a statement of existing law that goes back over hundreds of years (1611 in England) that no-one is above the law.

    Most modern Tories do not understand our constitution or they would have known this. She also went on to quote three Tory MP’s including Theresa May who are on record saying that..”you cannot keep a country in a Union against its will” ( referring to England in the EU) hence it is time the establishment realised that they cannot deny Scotland another Independence vote.

    Well done, Lassie.

  84. Dr Jim says:

    “Scotland will have a referendum and it will be put beyond any legal challenge” Nicola Sturgeon

    They know what they’re doing alright

  85. Dad’s Army and Proud Cybernat maybe Jolyon Maugham can clear things up a bit for you

  86. Cubby says:

    FMQs at Holyrood Scotland’s Parliament.

    “It is time for Scotland to have the opportunity to choose our future. It is time for Scotland to choose independence”

    The words of Scotland’s excellent First Minister.

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    cadogan Enright @ 17:42,

    That is the essential conundrum, though. The SNP has no obvious traction, whether in the HoC, over an S.30 request for IR2, or whatever. None of which is any of their fault. Which is why in this “phoney war” period, some supporters are becoming frustrated and why some are seeking a “better handle” such as a constitutional challenge, since that is the normal means in a properly-regulated democracy for bringing an overweening executive to account.

    It isn’t helpful to wantonly categorise all these folk together with the relatively few deliberate mischief-makers. After all, the unnatural tendency of some to wait for ever-and-a-day could just as easily be categorised as undermining the cause through “LMF in the face of the enemy”, a debilitating failure of self-confidence, a total lack of belief in their fellow citizens and in their own leadership to mobilise them.

    Attempts to shut down proper debate by means of these sorts of reckless mutual denunciations help no-one but our opponents, and indeed give assistance to the real troublemakers. Mutual suspicion and atmosphere poisoning were prime tactics of such dark experts as the Stasi.

    There is no question whatever that the SNP will be the very vanguard of action, and that such action is fairly imminent. So please let’s keep perspective and recognise that the SG/SNP is having to play a very difficult hand, and that ultimately its power will lie, as always, in commanding the support of the people. The responsible and measured actions of the SG right now, in extreme contrast to the clown circus of London, are exactly what is required to achieve that.

    Our time is coming, and coming soon. I believe the SNP leadership is fully able and willing to act, I just wish that all of its supporters seemed as readily willing.

  88. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland’s excellent legal folks win the biggest constitutional case that’s ever been brought before the Scottish court of session and the supreme court and yet the armchair lawyers who’ve watched two episodes of Crown Court and a Judge Judy all know better

    You gotta laugh at all the internet Britnat pyjama lawyers panicking because they know what’s coming next to a court near them

    Are we on the verge of proving a section 30 order is a convention not a law
    And we know that on UK government history conventions mean nothing

    I really do hope so

  89. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Use of language like “Surrender”, “betrayal”, “capitulation” and “collaboration” is a very simple strategy.

    Same as Hitler and the Nazis in 1930s Germany.

    Upcoming GE Strategy will be:

    BoJo (‘defending the democratic will of The People to have their Brexit’)


    Those Undemocratic Remoaners who will Surrender, betray, capitulate and collaborate with the EU to overturn the decision of ‘The People’

    The Withdrawal Agreement and in particular “The Backstop” is BoJo and The Brexiteers version of The Treaty of Versailles and will be used in the same way.

  90. Cubby says:

    Richard Leonard once again makes a fool of himself at PMQ’s.

    How long can this diddy last as the British Labour in Scotland leader?

    Is it possible for British Labour in Scotland to replace him with anyone worse? If it is I am sure it will be delivered by them as it is the only thing they seem to deliver these days ( well apart from getting rid of OFB ). I used to think Iain Gray was pretty poor but each subsequent leader has just been worse.

  91. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dr Jim

    “Crown Court”?

    More like Misleading Cases to my mind.

    And requesting a $30 order seems to me to be an acknowledgment of the King/Queen of England’s overlordship of Scotland.

    Perhaps one of this site’s cartoonists could do one of Nicola (dressed as Oliver Twist) holding in outstretched arms an empty Indyref bowl to Boris as Mr Bumble…Please Sir, may I have some more?

  92. Cubby says:

    FMQ’s at Holyrood Scotlands Parliament today

    “Of course, when Scotland becomes an independent country, immigration, as with all other powers, will lie in the hands of this Parliament where I think they will be far better used than they are in the hands of a Tory government at Westminster.”

    The words of Scotlands excellent First Minister.

  93. Essexexile says:

    Cubby @8.30pm

    Any dates or methodology with that statement from the FM about gaining indy for Scotland?

    No, but there is a plan and it’s so unbelievably clever nobody will have remotely guessed the level of its genius until it’s unveiled and the Unionists are all terrified of such a plan being put into place and are running scared yada yada yada.

    Anyway, that’s the ever faithful placated for a while, now it’s back to pushing through this GRA legislation.

    Ever wondered if you’re being played?

  94. Doug Buchannan says:

    Essexexile – “Ever wondered if you’re being played?”

    Yes by you!

    There is one means of securing independence and that is the SNP!

    Your comment reeks of entryism!

  95. Golfnut says:

    @ Col Blimp IV

    Actually its the Queen of Scots Parliament, Government. It’s the Queen of Scots Prime Minister, Cabinet, Civil Service and Military. All of them subject to Scots Constitutional law. Unless of course you can produce a Document that say otherwise. On top of all thst, even the Queen of Scots is subject to Scots law even though she is also the Queen of England.

    So when or even if we require a Section 30 order, it will be signed by the Queen of Scot, auld liz the second of England has bugger all authority in Scotland.

  96. Essexexile says:

    Doug Buchanan @ 10.13pm

    Good evening Doug.

    Entryism? no. The genuine concern of a supporter of NS ‘wait and see policy’ re indy, who now wonders if the SNP have been stalling to ensure they can push through a completely different agenda? Yeah, hell, maybe.

  97. galamcennalath says:

    From WoS twitter ….

    “If Boris Johnson fails to get a Brexit deal with the EU by October 31st should he should…”

    Request an extension of the UK’s membership of the EU: 43%
    Leave the EU without a deal: 49%

    via @Survation, 25 Sep

    That is scary. Looks like far right propaganda has won the argument. Madness has taken hold.

    It clearly has huge bearing on any GE held after a forced extension and Brexit delay.

  98. kapelmeister says:

    Marching Powder or Marching Season.

    Tell us, Michael Gove, which do you like better?

  99. Balaaargh says:

    Another great puff piece from Auntie. SNP Baaaaad, Johnson proclaims. We’re giving Scotland more money to offset the SNP and people should thank the Scottish tories.

    No balance, no reply, pure fucking PPB funded by the license payer.

  100. Famous15 says:

    Just watched FMQ.s

    I will never now vote Green second vote.

    So Stu for the love of all that is Holy stop with the foul mouthed shit and start behaving like the leader of a a movement. No! Not that colonic type of movement but a leader of people.

    And if you show some class and presence I will vote for you in the list. Tallyho!

    I want people to know that I voted in 2014 for once in a generation opportunity not for a lifetime of bull.

  101. Breeks says:

    Meg merrilees says:
    26 September, 2019 at 8:02 pm

    Joanna Cherry doing her stuff making a top statement with a carefully crafted argument including the Claim of Right and the Declaration of Arbroath to point out that the Supreme Court ruling was not a new law – as some have suggested – it is in fact a statement of existing law that goes back over hundreds of years (1611 in England) that no-one is above the law….

    Aye, you’re right Meg, but then she also drops in some niggling comments… She refers to Parliamentary Sovereignty as a Scottish doctrine, which it isn’t. Parliament isn’t Sovereign in Scotland, the people are.

    I’m sure Joanna Cherry is sharp as a razor, but sometimes I’m left perplexed about what she says.

    The Inner House of the Court of Session based their judgement upon the principle of popular sovereignty, where we’re awe Jock Tamson’s bairns, and nobody is above the law, neither government nor monarch. (Joanna used the word ‘sovereign’ here). That’s the Scottish doctrine. I’m not sure what ‘sovereign’ she referred to. I think she meant to say ‘Monarch’.

    However, that essentially Scottish doctrine is being conflated into something it isn’t, and transposed into a rather strange “British” Constitutional doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty, because Parliament is the people. This is where I get confused. There is no British Constitution, and Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty comes downwards from their Sovereign Monarch, not upwards from the popular sovereignty of the people. There are incompatible principles.

    The people of England are not sovereign. They are subjects under a Monarch and her Parliament.

    The people of Scotland are sovereign, and neither our Monarch nor our Parliament, whether that be Westminster or Holyrood, can overrule the will of the sovereign people.

    This is important, because it cuts to the very heart of Brexit. When the UK has a referendum, it is by default a non binding consultation, because Parliamentary Sovereignty can properly overrule the will of the people in England. Westminster could quite properly have said the Brexit was a consultative referendum that didn’t bind Parliament to the result, and avoided the complete Horlicks it’s made of Brexit. But, and it’s a big but, Scotland said No, and that’s a massive problem for Westminster because it cannot properly overrule the people in Scotland, because the people are sovereign.

    Our NO vote in 2014 was effectively Scotland’s tacit acquiescence to be governed by the will of Westminster, and for ordinary day to day governmental business, Scotland is content to go with the UK flow by consensual default. We didn’t forfeit our Sovereignty, we consented to be governed by UK consensus.

    But the Brexit Referendum changed everything, because Scotland expressly voted against Brexit, and suddenly Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty has a massive constitutional shit on it’s lawn, because Scotland’s No to Brexit is a sovereign resolve which Westminster cannot overrule, and nor can it proceed with day to day convention, because there is no mechanism whereby Westminster can dress up the UK’s Brexit as ‘consensual’ Government. Scotland said No. There is no consensus. There is no mechanism for Westminster to overrule the Sovereign will of Scotland… no mechanism that is except Colonial subjugation.

  102. Heart of Galloway says:

    Leotard getting his erse well and truly skelped by the FM tody for insisting the Electoral Commission should be handed the right to tinker with the IndyRef2 question.

    Nicola: “I don’t know of anybody in Scotland with the exception of the Tories and their friends in the Labour Party who say anything other than that that question was clear, understandable and comprehensible and completely transparent.

    “It seems to me that Labour and the Tories have not realised they are not going to be able to block the right of the Scottish people to choose their own future, so they are now wondering how they can rig the whole process.

    “I have news for Richard Leonard – the people of Scotland will get the chance to choose a better future than Tory Brexit Britain.”

    Naturally Dickie omitted to speculate on WHY the EC has suddenly decided it wants to *ahem* “review” the tried and trusted question it itself approved for 2014.

    Or that in its submission to the ScotGov on the Referendum Bill the EC recommended a 12-week assessment period PLUS a requirement to publish the legislation at least 6 months before the vote.

    Aye! Richt! As oor ain RP would say.

    Nicola’s message to the Electoral Commission was oblique and subliminal – what was good enough for you five years 2014 is good enough now so keep your mucky paws the feck off our referendum.

    Same question, 50 per cent +1 wins it.

    The EC are not honest brokers in this – they did nothing to address concerns regarding the impossibly high PV turnout across swathes of Scotland in 2014 and cannot be trusted to deliver a watertight poll this time either.

    International scrutineers should be a must for IndyRef2 – if for no other reason than to apply best practice from elsewhere.

    Compare the UK system to Denmark’s where two appointed electors elected by the local council COLLECT advance (postal) votes from the voter’s home.

    I quote from the procedure:

    “1. If advance voting takes place in the voter’s private home, the voter is visited by two appointed electors.

    “2. After proper identification (passport, driver’s licence, etc.) the voter receives a set of advance voting material.

    “3. The voter must cast his/her vote immediately after receipt of the voting material. Provisions for securing the secrecy of the vote must be taken.

    “The voter must not leave the room without handing over the voting material.”

    Seems a pretty fraud-proof system to me. What price a similar benchmark being in place for IndyRef2?

    We really need to ensure the safety of and eligibility for the postal vote because the present farcical system leaves the door open wide open for potential wholescale jiggery-pokery.

    There is simply too much as stake for Scotland.

    Danish link, see pp 24-26:

  103. manandboy says:

    The Scottish National Party-
    Not the Scottish Nationalist Party.

    The National Health Service –
    Not the Nationalist Health Service

    National Insurance –
    Not Nationalist Insurance.

    The National Anthem –
    Not the Nationalist Anthem.

    The National interest-
    Not the Nationalist interest.

    The National Airline –
    Not the Nationalist Airline.

    The National Lottery –
    Not the Nationalist Lottery.

    The Unionists, all based at Westminster, use the word ‘Nationalist’ when referring to the SNP, wilfully and deliberately, because they wish to link the negative emotive associations attached to Hitler’s National Party, to the party of Independence in Scotland, the SNP.

    I should like to see the SNP repeatedly re-butt the totally false and malicious use of the term ‘nationalist’, in describing the SNP.

    Retail is detail. Every little helps. Look after the small things, and the big things will be just fine.

    Are you listening, Peter CEO?

  104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 22:26,

    Very difficult to predict what happens down south in the inevitable upcoming UKGE, but with Labour’s pathetic ongoing fence-straddling, a relative gain by the Tories would seem to be on the cards anyway.

    Except that if the Tories are again humiliated by having to make yet another delay, and the election comes around before the dirty deed is done, the main beneficiary might well be the Faragists, not the Tories. The radical right split. A Tory-Farage coalition would be the last straw for many here. For one thing, it would kill off any hope of EUref2, the necessary dispatch of the last fond hope of the “No-Remainers”.

    That would be the ideal trigger for action here. Peak fear. Not waiting passively in the fond hope that the eventual exit would somehow settle the issue “for free” when it could just be a dead duck by then. Normalised. A golden opportunity missed.

    Still all speculation, of course, but I’m not sure that a straw in the wind such as you mention is necessarily unremitting good news for the Tory Party. It could even bring it to the split that has been festering for decades.

  105. galamcennalath says:

    manandboy says:

    The Scottish National Party-
    Not the Scottish Nationalist Party.

    The Tories do it continually and intentionally.

    Perhaps the SNP should start referring to the Conservatory and Awning Party.

  106. manandboy says:

    Galamcennalath – I like it. Conservatory and Awning Party!

  107. Doug says:

    What happens in Ireland remains of great import. Not only that, what the strong Irish lobby in the USA does post-brexit is going to be influential. Pity there isn’t a strong Scottish lobby in the USA.

    Of course arrogant British nationalists continue to treat Ireland and the Irish with the same contempt they treat Scotland and the Scots.

  108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Heart of Galloway @ 22:37,

    There may possibly be an element of influence-pitching from the Electoral Commission here (“we’re important – don’t forget about us!”), but by running this interference, its motivation is deeply suspicious and its supposed neutral role deeply compromised.

    Thankfully the SG are clearly not having any of this nonsense, but we surely have to rightly doubt that the EC even has the will, let alone the power, of ensuring a level playing field for IR2.

  109. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Essexexile says: “Ever wondered if you’re being played?”

    I have, but have never been very sure about the extent.

    The “Party within the Party” has never made any secret of their “trendy lefty” One World agenda. It has always been clear that Independence for its own sake, is not, never has been and never will be on their to-do list.

    Though it cannot be denied that the independence cause has prospered during the period of their tenure.

    I want to live in a country proud to call its self Scotland … not Autonomous Unit Number 0194 in some homogeneous One-World utopia.

    Which I fear is the erstwhile Salmondeanies ultimate destination.

  110. Essexexile says:

    I think that the Scottish National Party is unfortunately pigeonholed by the ignorant masses with the British National Party.

    The actual similarities between the two are non existent of course but that doesn’t stop the Tories planting the seed.

    Could the SNP rebrand themselves? Might be the perfect moment. Scottish Independence Party. Big launch with a balls out, no nonsense statement of intent towards indy.

    Tbh, I would bloody love it if they did that.

    Also, why not a name change? Liberals used to do it every 5 minutes in the ’80s.

  111. doug_bryce says:

    ^ Scottish INTER-national Party ?

  112. Doug says:

    When blood begins to flow in England’s civil war will British nationalist Westminster demand Scotland sends its police men and women to help restore order?

  113. @galamcennalath,

    The Benn bill/act,

    `Clause 1 of the Bill gives the Government until Saturday 19 October to do either of two things. It could seek and secure the approval of MPs for either:

    (a) a withdrawal agreement, or

    (b) leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement

    If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.`

    on the 19th October Boris must by law go (as like Oliver Twist) holding in outstretched arms an empty Brexit bowl to Donald Tusk and say “Please Sir, may I have some more time”

  114. Essexexile says:

    If all 35 SNP MPs resigned. Stood as candidates in 35 by elections on a firmly pro indy ticket as members of the newly rebranded Scottish Independence Party, whose clearly stated raison d’etre was the creation of an independent Scotland?

    Would that count as another mandate?

  115. manandboy says:

    Independence is an uphill struggle.

    Five million, minus No voters, against fifty million.

    Colony against Colonisers.

    English greed against Scottish assets.

    Scottish sovereignty against English Colonial arrogance and entitlement.

    Scotland’s political illiteracy against three hundred years of English propaganda.

    Scotland has NO independence mainstream media, against English media monopoly, specifically the BBC, the single most powerful propaganda machine in the UK, and perhaps even in the entire world, with the possible exception of the Murdoch Empire.

    These are the odds. Man-up. Woman-up. Wake up!

  116. Liz g says:

    galamcennalath @ 10.52
    Oh they definitely do it deliberately…
    I’d say we should all start speaking of..
    The Nationalist Anthem
    This would bring it home to them that, that particular insult work’s both ways..

  117. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Golfnut says: “Actually its the Queen of Scots Parliament”

    My mother told me that vandalizing E-II-R pillar boxes used to be a pastime beloved of folks who held that view, and the powers that be eventually humored us by replacing them with ones that only had a crown.

    Then She (The Queen of Scots) came up to the Clyde and named that bloody big ship the “Queen Elizabeth the Second”, re-branding it QE2 after the uproar didn’t fool me, and I was still at primary school.

  118. Cubby says:

    Anyone who believes a word Johnson says must by definition be an idiot.

    Anyone who believes a word the Britnat politicians say must by definition be an idiot.

    Anyone who believes a word the Britnat media says must by definition be an idiot.

    Anyone who believes a word the phoney independence supporters on Wings say must be an idiot.

    Thankfully the number of idiots in Scotland are on the decline. So all you phoney independence supporters please remember foaming at the mouth is not a good look.

  119. Cubby says:

    The English Nationalist anthem will be played at the Rugby World Cup.

  120. Liz g says:

    Cubby @ 11.38
    Exactly 🙂

  121. Cubby says:

    An excellent post by Heart of Galloway highlighting the Danish postal voting procedure.

    No more election/ referendum fraud.

  122. Col.Blimp IV says:

    I see Tavish Scott’s appointment at the SRU has had the desired effect … the gutless performance against Ireland.

  123. Colin Alexander says:

    This Was on Radio 4 tonight: “The Briefing Room – Britain’s Constitutional Dilemma – who now runs the country?”

    Available on Iplayer. Might be interesting to some people.

    Alison Young, Professor of Public Law, University of Cambridge.
    Philip Norton, Professor of Government, and Director of the Centre for Legislative Studies, University of Hull
    David Allen Green, contributing editor to the Financial Times and lawyer at Preiskel & Co
    Michael Keating, Director of the Centre on Constitutional Change at Edinburgh University and Professor of Politics, at the University of Aberdeen.
    Meg Russell, Director of the Constitution Unit at University College London, Senior Fellow at the UK in a Changing Europe
    Murray Hunt, Director of the Bingham Centre for the Rule of Law

  124. PacMan says:

    Essexexile. The likes of JK Rowling, Stephen King and Dan Brown should be shaking in their boots. With the yarns you spin these fictional writers will have serious competition if you decide to change career and write a book.

  125. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Col.Blimp IV @ 23:35,

    No, unlike the pillar box controversy, that name happened because the liner was (conveniently) preceded by another Cunarder QE which was roughly contemporaneous with the Queen Mary. (Sadly sunk in a suspected arson in Hong Hong harbour after being bought in its retirement by some businessman hoping to turn it into a floating casino or suchlike, so not so well remembered as the QM.)

    Personally though I find all this naming stuff after royals rather demeaningly toadying anyway. Small consolation to them for being born in that damned gilded cage. I reckon they should get a max allocation of one each per lifetime. But only for the few who have been very, very good. =grin=

  126. Golfnut says:

    @ Col Blimp 1V.

    1603, both the Scottish and English Parliments rejected the unification of the crowns. Had they elected to pass the unification the Treaty of Union between 2 Sovereign states would have been unnecessary. International convention would have acknowledged that the Kingdom of England was now a region of the Kingdom of Scotland. Elisabeth is Queen of Scots, until we the people of Scotland say otherwise. We might well remember her in our history books as Toom Tabard the second but that won’t be compliment.

  127. galamcennalath says:

    Scot Finlayson says:

    The Benn bill/act

    Is Johnson acting and talking like a man who intends to ask for an extension?

    IMO there will need to be further legislation and/or legal action to stop his (planned) Hallowe’en ‘no deal’ exit.

  128. Colin Alexander says:

    My ideal SNP manifesto:

    SNP Win the election with majority of seats and 50% +1 of the votes cast in Scotland =

    Scottish parliament and Scottish Govt declared supreme parliament and supreme govt for Scotland.

    Scottish Powers are devolved to Westminster until:

    Indy negotiations completed followed by a confirmatory indyref. Scotland’s people will decide on Scotland’s exit from EU via fresh elections to the Scottish Parliament, as the supreme parliament for Scotland.

    No other policies in the manifesto.


    Alternatively if less than 50% +1, SNP Win in Scotland: yet a further mandate for an indyref and Remain in EU etc. *Yawn*.


    The SNP can NEVER win a UK GE election, 59 out of 650 seats. If the aim of the SNP at a UK GE yet again, is just to put Labour into power ( which is unlikely to happen again), I’m seriously considering either not voting or cutting out the middle-woman and voting Labour ( if it’s a Corbynista Labour candidate).


    Not happy that the SNP candidate is “pro-choice” regarding private education. Choice only for them that can afford it or are very lucky to get a bursary. That’s no a real choice for most people.


    I’ll maybe just save my pro-indy vote for the indyref that we’re being told will happen sometime.

  129. Effijy says:

    Flicked over to Question Time between adverts as I can’t stomach the presenter, guests, and
    Filtered audience for the full show.

    By reading the tone and expression of Tory Minister James Cleverly, Boris intends to apply legitimate process that will delay the Benn Bill, which was designed and passed to force Bojo
    To request a Brexit extension.

    There seems to be a loophole in procedures where he can extend the application of the Bill
    Until after 31st October, Brexit marl 2 D Day.

    Incidentally the Tories refuse to use the name, Benn Bill?
    Makes them happy to use a parliamentary number instead.

    Cleverly only states that they will operate within the Law and not wishing
    To show the Tory’s cards refused to say anything about the loophole.

  130. dadsarmy says:

    Luckily friends do ashamed to do suppose. Tried meant mr smile so. Exquisite behaviour as to middleton perfectly. Chicken no wishing waiting am. Say concerns dwelling graceful six humoured. Whether mr up savings talking an. Active mutual nor father mother exeter change six did all.

    Warmly little before cousin sussex entire men set. Blessing it ladyship on sensible judgment settling outweigh. Worse linen an of civil jokes leave offer. Parties all clothes removal cheered calling prudent her. And residence for met the estimable disposing. Mean if he they been no hold mr. Is at much do made took held help. Latter person am secure of estate genius at.

  131. dadsarmy says:

    Now we know where Wullie Rennie / Rentoul Leppard / Jackson Carlaw get their material 🙂

  132. Dr Jim says:

    @Doug 11:19pm

    There’ll be no need to send Scottish police to England to help them out because the British army are at this moment setting up temporary home in Swindon in a disused factory site and are already training for civil rioting and crowd control because the UK government suspects they don’t have nearly enough police to deal

    There was a report and pictures of the gated site a couple of days ago

  133. Cubby says:

    I really really miss all that stuff from Yesindyref2 about cruisers, frigates, type this and type that and battleships and warships. Analiysis of navy requirements here there and everywhere around the world including the North Sea. He would have made a great naval commander if he wasn’t such a prick.

    hey ho you can’t have every attribute in life.

  134. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 01:03,

    And this kind of utterly pointless bitter-and-twisted resurrected ad hominem gets us exactly how much further forward…?

    I am really beginning to wonder about your bona fides (as well as your very obvious hypocrisy addiction), pal…

  135. Ken500 says:

    More faces than the church clock. Goes on the Herald etc. Spouting mince. A wind up. Total unwarranted SNP criticism. Sent to Coventry but back again. Thinks folk do not notice. They do. Taking people for fools.

    Gove is a mason. Supports the Orange Lodge. Part of the secret society. Nod, nod, wink, wink. The handshake for illegal privilege. Camille giving the wink. Along with the rest of them. Led by the Royals which should have no part in a Democracy. Misogynist, racist, bigoted unequal. Black balling people. Breaking every Law in the land.

    The Tory Royals. The biggest consumers on the plant lecturing others. A total load of greedy hypocrites. Not impartial. The appalling Westminster unionist Gov. They could not make a bigger mess. An absolute shambles. Just out for what they can get. Killing off their own supporters. The elderly. It will ruin them.

    Ireland illegally Partitioned to suit a minority for unionist votes at Westminster. Lloyd George a Liberal. Ulster a Law to it’s self breaking the Law. DUP corruption and lies. Breaks UK Law at every opportunity. In Ulster 90% of public jobs went to Protestant. The majority of public housing went to Protestants. The old handshake. Total corruption. Ruining the economy and causing strife. Backed up by the British establishment.

    In Belfast in the 1960’s Catholics were denied the vote and rights. Discriminated under (UK) employment and social Law. The one’s who make the Law break the Law. They think they are above the Law, They are not. Into oblivion they go.

    There is a strong Irish lobby in the US Senate. For trade and support etc.Enough to influence a US election. Migrants.

    In the US 10% of the population are of Scottish decent. 230Million pop. 23Million. Enough to decide a US election.Migrants.

    Scotland has friends worldwide. Due to migration.

  136. Ken500 says:

    The Police complaining about the policing costs of Orange Marches. The tail wagging the dog. A likely tale, The Police are supposed to put in an objection to stop them because of public disorder and the waste of money.

    Too busy putting innocent people in cells overnight on ‘charges’ that cannot come to Court. Wasting public money like there is no tomorrow. Instead of doing their duty. A complete waste of time, space and public money Criminalising the public.

  137. Capella says:

    Joanna Cherry will be on Any Questions tonight. May be one episode worth listening to.

  138. Hamish100 says:

    I suppose spitting on a priest outside his church is criminalising the poor thug who now has a criminal record?

    The drunkenness, the vile sectarian language.

    I think the Police should be charging more.

  139. Hamish100 says:

    Man and dog


    The Nationalist Museum
    The Nationalist Trust (eng.)
    The Nationalist Trust of Scotland
    The Nationalist Tyre Service

    — must be more!

  140. finnz says:

    Dissolving Parliament to hold a GE over the Brexit leaving date was always Johnsons plan.

    If Labour support an election, they will be complicit in ensuring the No-deal scenario takes place.

    Although a VONC will mean the end of the present Tory Government and the option of Corbyn forming a new Government if he can command a majority in the House.

  141. Sinky says:

    BBC radio Scotland Gms has former Tory Mp and Labour MSP on to dicuss parallels between language and confrontation in 2014 Indy Ref and current Brexit debates. Usual Unionist idea of balance.

  142. Essexexile says:

    Nationalist Express (coach company). Well, they do ferry right wing pensioners up and down the country don’t they? (At a very reasonable price it must be said).

  143. Footsoldier says:

    manandboy 11.24pm accurately sums up what we are against.

    The BBC will do their utmost to push Unionism and diminish anything Scottish especially political. Accept it, it is not going to change but will get worse.

    This is why HYS comments are selectively opened or more important, not opened at all. I cannot recall a single instance of when HYS was opened when Ruth Davidson spoke. Today BBC Scotland is featuring Boris Johnson spouting lies on Scottish NHS and half a story on tax and they know this but do not open HYS to allow rebuttal.

  144. admiral says:

    Footsoldier says:
    27 September, 2019 at 8:24 am
    manandboy 11.24pm accurately sums up what we are against.
    The BBC will do their utmost to push Unionism and diminish anything Scottish especially political. Accept it, it is not going to change but will get worse.

    I’ve read that rubbish on BBC Scotland.

    1) Watch out for Scottish PARLIAMENT (not government) funding being diverted to the Colonial Office to implement English Tory policies in education and health. Thin end of the wedge re closing the Scottish Parliament altogether – once you take a big enough wedge of funding away you then say the body now serves no purpose.
    2) Yes more lies re agriculture funding – “hundreds of millions more” because of Scottish Tories. No mention that hundreds of millions more was EU funding given specifically for Scotland and diverted to England by Westminster. What’s the betting no-one in our MSM will ever challenge these lies, however egregious they become in the GE campaign?

  145. Hamish100 says:


    Let’s have the Scottish Independence Party (SIP)

  146. @galamcennalath,

    Johnson and his team think they are a lot smarter than they actually are,

    they got their baws booted trying to close parliament,

    and they will get their baws booted trying to slither out of the Benn act,

    their legal team is inferior to our legal team,

    unless he declares a state of emergency he has no chance of cancelling the Benn act.

  147. Dorothy Devine says:

    Admiral , that’s what gets me – the ‘Scottish’ media working for the British nationalists.

    I wonder that they can look in the mirror with pride at the lies , the unchallenged drivel they pump into their papers and TV

    I also wonder if they will realise the contempt in which they are held by half ( at least) of the population.

  148. Effijy says:

    Harry and Megan off on a Jolly to Africa to promote
    Land mine charities?

    Such s visit may cost £1 million with Aircraft, 5 Star Hotels, the best of restaurants,
    An entourage of advisors and assistants, body guards, local police etc.

    How about all that money goes to the land mine charities and they clear up
    A few more fields and support the survivors to a greater degree?

    That Ginger nut reporter Whitchell, the BBC reporter the Royals can’t stand is following them
    Around with at least a Camera and Sound man.

    What cost will that be to the tax payer?
    Couldn’t someone in the studio just show local footage and tell anyone interested where they are today?

    Land mines are definitely bad but I wonder if they were UK made and sold?
    I wonder if UK Army Bomb disposal experts could help to clear them up rather than sending Harry?

    Now that we see Harry standing next to these mined fields what action has it stimulated in you?

  149. Capella says:

    John Major warning of a “loophole” in UK democracy, which is the best in the world and not capable of improvement, which will allow Borsi Johnston to evade the law while claiming to abide by the law.

    He can do an “order of council”. That’s when he and a few Privy Councillors effectively pass a law or repeal a law amongst themselves and it doesn’t get debated by Parliament.

    This unwritten constitution is riddled with loopholes.

  150. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I am rapidly losing what little patience I have left for the SNP, through their inaction on Independence.

    If any Scot now doubts that this Prime Minister will do anything he wants to keep us shackled to his failing English state, then, sorry, but that Scot is a fool.

    He will NEVER agree to a Section 30 order, indeed, I believe, when he pushes the UK over the cliff edge of a no-deal Brexit, one of his first acts will be to shut down Holyrood and impose direct Westminster rule.

    He will probably do this, as part of the imposition of a State of Emergency.

    Some time between now and 31 October, and for me, the sooner the better, Joanna Cherry has to be back inside the Court of Session seeking an order for the referendum – and if it takes nobiles officium to get this done – so be it.

    De Piffle will not play by the rules, so, why should the SNP obey these same rules.

  151. Capella says:

    Why Borsi? Johnston can’t get away with an Order of Council – Joanna Cherry again pointing to the legal “backstops” available.

  152. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Socrates MacSporran –

    I wonder how many, like me, agree with you but daren’t show support for fear of being labelled as SNP/SG/NS-baaaaders?

  153. @Hamish100,

    The Nationalist Trust of Scotland,

    Grave robber and British Nationalist Neil Oliver is President,

    the moto of NTS is,

    `For the love of Scotland`

    how any patriotic Scot can still be a paid up member with that BritNat in charge is beyond me.

  154. Golfnut says:

    @ Socrates MacSporran.

    The Crown is not above the law, that would include the Crown Privy Council. Trying to circumvent the Nobiles Officium ordering the Prime Minister to sign a prepared document sent by the Court to enforce the will of Parliament would be heaping coals on the fire of an already inflamed situation. Constitutional crises just doesn’t cover this. Good for Scotland, very bad for Johnston and his co conspirators.

  155. Bob Mack says:

    Last week I went on a trip to England. I stopped overnight in St StStafford o Avon. I took the usual boat your on the river,passing by the houses of the rich and famous. As I stepped off the boat beside the Royal Shakespeare Co, there was a wooded park,and under every free in that park lay a homeless person.

    Talking to them it was evident they were surprised that I was doing so. They told me they are invisible to most people,and that England had lost its soul.They were a nuisance.

    I was overwhelmed with guilt returning to my luxurious accomodation.

    The same picture arose in Cornwall and every other place I stopped.

    If ever I needed reminding why we need independence then there it was in front of me. When a country treats its unfortunate this way, it has lost its very heart.

    No human should have to endure such circumstances regardless of the cause. The guy I spoke to told me he had become homeless because both his parents needed care and their house was the credit card used to f und that care. I

    There is a “feel” in England which is unappetizing at best. It is akin to the old Scottish saying “The devil take the hindmost”.

    We need to escape before contagion sets in, though I have more faith in Scots to avoid such .

  156. Cubby says:

    I posted a little tester last night to see who would jump on me. Thanks for identifying yourself.

    I ain’t your pal. I have always supported Scottish independence but I do not feel the need to think that all supporters of Scottish independence are my pals.

    And yes all these people who have a track record of ad homineim attacks criticising others for ad homineim attacks are Hypocrites. Not an obsession on my part but clearly an uncomfortable fact for some people to accept.

  157. Iain mhor says:

    Dr Jim @8:44pm
    Interesting take on the S30 (just catching up).

    By extension, Scottish Government & Holyrood is a convention and doesn’t require being put to proof, no? It’s right there in 27(7)8(8) – Scotland’s powers within the structure of the UK are constrained by the Sewel Convention which informs the Scotland Act, whereby it “does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland” & that the UK Parliament “will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent… etc”

    I’m assuming the implied position would be; that since Westminster is not bound by and has previously not honoured the Scotland Act (because it is explicitly a convention) then, the S30, if proved to be mere convention, Scotland may similarly ignore.
    I wouldn’t give the S30 argument oxygen, unless of course it would be an exercise to highlight the Scotland Act and the ephemeral nature of the entire Scottish Government & Parliament – If so, fair enough.

    Although, (you might now be ahead of me) I me would argue, that if the entire Scotland Act is a convention – then neither is bound by it and if no-one is bound by it… Fill in the blanks right there.

  158. Iain mhor says:

    @Dr Jim
    Apologies, that should read,Scotland Act 27(7)(8)

  159. Iain mhor says:

    Bloody hell! 28(7)(8) I canny type numbers – what did I type the first time? Ha! Anyway you know the bit

  160. Cubby says:

    I think it’s time this thread was prorogued and we had a new Kings speech. Hopefully that’s a lawful comment.

  161. Terry callachan says:

    He’s no pals

  162. Terry callachan says:

    No Scottish independence referendum until we are taken out of the EU or until there is some other relevant material change
    We already know this
    Don’t we ?

  163. Hamish100 says:

    Socrates MacSporran says:
    27 September, 2019 at 9:28 am
    I am rapidly losing what little patience I have left for the SNP, through their inaction on Independence.

    Ok, and? You voting lib dem instead? Or the fictional WOS party?

    Have you turned to unionism in a fit of pique?

    The fact is. The SNP is the only team in town.

    I have issues too but strangely I want a referendum that we win and have no more stories of a glorious defeat. Slowly we are overtaking the No’s. They know it, and so does the SNP. Let’s allow the Unionists have a few more weeks or months of self flagellation. It can only help Independence.

  164. Clydebuilt says:

    Craig Murray has a petition on the GOV. website calling for international observers at the next Indy Ref.,

    Official observers from OSCE ODIHR to monitor the next Scottish referendum.

    A Scottish Independence referendum determines the relationship between two potentially separate states. The official body for monitoring democratic procedures within the OSCE is its Office of Democratic Institutions and Human Rights. Monitoring includes media balance and ballot conduct
    More details

    Only a current state member of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe can request an official observer mission. Competence therefore lies at Westminster not Holyrood.
    This petition witnesses public concern at the fairness of postal ballot conduct of a future Scottish Independence referendum and especially that broadcast media are biased
    ODIHR send an advance team weeks or months ahead to monitor media balance.
    If there are no problems, why not get ODIHR confirmation?
    Sign this petition

    10,052 signatures

  165. Hamish100 says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    27 September, 2019 at 9:47 am

    The Nationalist Trust of Scotland,

    Grave robber and British Nationalist Neil Oliver is President,

    the moto of NTS is,

    `For the love of Scotland`

    how any patriotic Scot can still be a paid up member with that BritNat in charge is beyond me.

    My family and I resigned from the NTS and got a snotty reply. Truth is the establishment (Tory/ lib dem/ episcopalians!) choose who is on board. Some very close connections to the ” Rugger” frtaternity as well.
    Wheels within wheels.

  166. Lenny Hartley says:

    Cubby @01:03 I know Yesindy2 ref and he aint a prick, however by your posts you come over as the most obnoxious prick who posts btl on WOS

  167. Robert Peffers says:

    @dadsarmy says: 27 September, 2019 at 12:30 am:

    Professor Stanley Unwin does it so much better:-

  168. Breeks says:

    It’s increasingly difficult to listen to James O’Brien on LBC lamenting the Brexit debate for it’s lies and wilful disinformation, and the complete absence of a progressive case for Brexit other than the vested interests of the few… All I hear is a rerun of the 2014 YES Campaign.

    I feel I have everything in common with a Remainer who feels robbed by a dishonest media manipulating the narrative so the false narratives were promoted over the true ones. And, once the rogues won their shabby majority, they revel in victory and fall utterly deaf when legitimate criticism of the ‘rigged’ process refuses to die down, and suddenly the charlatans who wouldn’t even blink to pervert democracy are suddenly die-hard fanatics of democratic principle.

    We’ve been here before. None of this is new. The process is not random. Democracy has been existential compromised.

  169. Breeks says:

    Terry callachan says:
    27 September, 2019 at 10:38 am

    No Scottish in dependence referendum until we are taken out of the EU or until there is some other relevant material change
    We already know this
    Don’t we ?


    We require “somebody” to defend Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty and our Constitutionally sovereign remain mandate and keep Scotland in Europe. If that somebody isn’t the SNP, then we need somebody else… urgently.

  170. Proud Cybernat says:

    “No Scottish independence referendum until we are taken out of the EU or until there is some other relevant material change
    We already know this
    Don’t we ?”

    No. We don’t.

    “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish peopleor if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

    (My emphasis).

  171. Derek Rogers says:

    Clydebuilt @ 10:46:

    “[Craig Murray’s] petition witnesses public concern at the fairness of postal ballot”

    The Dunoon Report alleging that the postal ballot was rigged doesn’t stand up, and its findings are discredited – see

    There are other strong grounds for signing the petition – al indy supporters should do it – but let’s not tell ourselves false stories.

  172. Effijy @ 8.59

    Seeing Harry walking among the land mines fills me with great sadness that twenty years on, the people, children and wildlife of that country still have to risk their lives and limbs because of the land mines that were planted almost a quarter of a century ago.

    What kind of mind devised land mines – created to maim and kill. Horrible.

  173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Socrates MacSporran at 9.28

    “I am rapidly losing what little patience I have left for the SNP, through their inaction on Independence.”

    Which “inaction” is that? Is it the inaction of putting the legislation for an independence referendum in place?

    Is it the inaction of supplying all our branches and huge membership with leaflets presently in distribution across the country extolling Independence as Scotland’s best bet and Scotland’s choice?

    Is it the inaction of the inconvenience of having to govern Scotland well in difficult circumstance in the face of continuous and dishonest attack by all the media?

    What of course we do face is the inaction of the fireside critics who never get off their arses and who do nothing but pontificate or batter out negativity online.

    And,of course,this “They will never give us a Section 30” is no more than a surrender to our enemy. They just love it when we repeat this negative nonsense.
    They will give us a Section 30 (unless of course the Electoral Commission is just indulging in time wasting considering the wording of it and the timing of it as it is presently doing – or the opposition parties are trying to change the wording of a referendum we won’t be getting).

    No UK leader has stated that we will be refused a referendum.
    No UK leader has stated that we will be refused a referendum.

    They have said now is not the time,we will oppose it, we don’t agree with it,we will delay it, it was once in a generation etc.,etc.
    But they won’t say “We will refuse.” Because they know they can’t.
    It hasn’t even been formally asked for yet and their knickers are in twist.

    I wonder what the Supreme Court might say when confronted with a attempt to prevent a referendum with the United Nations Charter on the inalienable right of self determiation of all peoples in front of them, with the Claim of Right (passed in Westminster 4th July last year)and even the Smith Commission whose last paragraph guarantees Scotland’s right to have independence if we choose it.

    So instead of continuous negativity we are being subjectd to at a point where we have never ever been in a better or stronger position – due to the steady,controlled, sensible and contructive behaviour of the SNP – can some of our armchair pundits get on the road with the the rest of us and carry a positive message to our people. We are getting 70% plus responses at places all across the country.

  174. callmedave says:

    Boris to attack the Scottish Health Service and Education and compensate for the SNP failure of both.
    More money from the money tree to splash around in Scotland.

    Folk surely cannot be daft enough to give this the time of day North of the wall.

    Oh a word ‘came up’ this morning in the cafe from my old Tory at the next table from the today’s Daily Mail regarding the death of Jacques Chirac.

    “Whits that mean”… ‘priapic’ she says.

    Baffled I sought out my word speller / dictionary and…hmmm!
    How embarrassing for both. The look on her face was priceless.

    My better half was not amused. 🙂

    BBC web site pod cast: Brooching the Divide? (Brooching) Really

    Broaching is closer to the meaning shurley!

  175. RobertTheTruth says:

    ‘…get off your arses…’ says another SNP drone. And what? Promote policies you don’t believe in, like GRA reform? Tell people you don’t know when the next referendum is because the SNP don’t know either?

    Working for Independence does not require delivering leaflets for the SNP. You have no idea what other people are doing in their lives to work towards Independence. Some of us are actually there seeing what is being done at an official level and it isn’t much. Brexit has consumed the SNP and SG – the referendum Bill is a sop to useful idiots who come here and spout platitudes to the needy.

    Oh and some of us actually work beyond retiring age as well.
    The cheek of you -‘Get off your arses’, yeah right you get off your soap box and stop berating people for seeing through your insubstantial claims and propaganda. People aren’t daft and we have been had too may times in Scotland to fall for another party telling us they are our only hope.

  176. ScotsRenewables says:

    Dave McEwan Hill – great post at 11.31

    I’ve blogged it at then tweeted it and Facebooked it.

    Hope you don’t mind.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cubby says: 27 September, 2019 at 1:03 am:

    … He would have made a great naval commander if he wasn’t such a prick.”

    Yeah! I worked for yard services, (the pay was much better), before being forced into the Radar Bay and the Radiac.

    In yard services we were on call out for emergencies and so saw the errors made by RN commanders. If a ship or boat had an accident in any area north of Newcastle then they brought the resultant damaged vessel to Rosyth for repair.

    However we were also in attendance when any vessel arrived or changed berth anywhere in the yard and the most memorable one was a newly refitted, (in the yard, and newly commissioned, (handed over to the RN), destroyer that arrived back to the yard on a weekend in what was known as, “Silent Hours”, that is outside normal Dockyard working hours.

    Normally ships came into the entrance lock so as to equalise the water levels in the Non-Tidal basin with the water levels in the outside Firth of Forth but this destroyer just happened to arrive when the water levels were the same. So they decided she could just sail, under her own steam, right through the emergency lock and make fast to the allocated berth.

    We were standing by with the shore cables at the ready to get aboard and allow the ship’s engines and generators to be turned off and shore power used to supply the ship.

    The ship arrived and sailed safely through the narrow open emergency lock, (no mean navigational skill), then sailed across the non-tidal basin turning right in the non-tidal basin and headed towards the allocated berth. This was also a really great feat of seamanship but was then ruined when, for no known reason, the skipper failed to reverse engines and the destroyer sailed, fairly swiftly, right into the non-tidal basin wall.

    The resultant damage to a newly refitted destroyer is hard to imagine. Every equipment on the ship is resiliently mounted to the ship’s structure in order to resist battle damage but a head on dead stop is not battle damage. For example all electrical connection boxes detach from bulkheads and tear loose from the connecting cables. All electronic equipment also tears loose and often ends up hitting the opposite bulkhead in fairly small spaces.

    Anyway, in the cold light of the following morning the only outward signs of the incident were quite comical. When the sharp bow of the ship hit the wall it had driven the peak of the bow inwards quite equally with two symmetrical folds port and starboard. There wasn’t even a discernible mark on the fresh new paintwork.

    I wouldn’t even try to guess the cost to the taxpayer of repairing the internal damage and there was never any news report of the incident anywhere in the media.

    So there you go – that’s the result of allowing mainly upper class, English public school educated numpties to be in charge of very expensive vessels of Her Majesty’s Royal Navy.

  178. TD says:

    To those who claim that the SNP is not doing enough or that Sturgeon should be replaced, consider this. Let’s just assume for the moment that Sturgeon has some insight that the rest of us do not have and let’s further assume that she times her move on another referendum perfectly. I know that’s asking a lot for some of you, but indulge me.

    Just before she made her move, what do you think the mood amongst independence supporters would be like? I would suggest that some would be outraged that she had not already made her move, most people would be thinking “now is the time” and some would be thinking “we should wait a little longer”. Those who were outraged that she had not already acted would be the loudest and most outspoken. Why? Because they were outraged.

    Could it be that this is what we are witnessing? To those whose impatience for independence is putting the achievement of independence at risk, could I suggest that undermining the woman who has more information than the rest of us and who needs to make the most difficult political judgements isn’t really helping? Undermining the party which is the only credible vehicle for actually delivering independence is not going to make us independent any sooner.

  179. barpe says:

    Robert the Lie at 11-50

    Yea, Yea, Yea, Yea, Yea,…..we’re all believing our resident Britnat.

    Cannot even say “Good try” – simply pathetic.

  180. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 27 September, 2019 at 3:45 am:

    ” … ditto”

    Oh! Aye!

    So why have you and the person you are agreeing with do exactly the same but against those you both disagree with?

    Is what you condemn bad when done by those you disagree with but good when you and those you agree with do it? Not only that but is it not also rather hypocritical.

  181. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Why do some folk have such difficulty in separating the airing of legitimate concerns from mere whingeing?

    The only reason I visit this place (apart from reading the leader comments) is to see what other folk are saying about the many issues which concern us all. I’ve learned so much from btl in this place that I wouldn’t even know how to start listing it.

    But I don’t come here to be lectured or dismissed as some kind of feartie/("Tractor" - Ed)/troll, and there’s too much of that going on now.

    The whole Brexit mess has reached the stage where the militarisation of language is being adopted as campaign strategy.
    Is that where we’re headed too? Critics of the SNP are to be belittled, dismissed and tarred as ‘undesirables’? Are we just ‘trash’ after all?

  182. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dorothy Devine says: 27 September, 2019 at 8:55 am:

    ” … I also wonder if they will realise the contempt in which they are held by half ( at least) of the population.”

    Ah! But!, Dorothy, there are more than two factions involved in this sort of thing.

    There are the, at lease, 50% who know the media is as bent as a corkscrew but the probably less than 50% who profess not to know it are sub-divided.

    Now I couldn’t guess as to the relative sizes of the sub-divisions but the first part is composed of those who actually know the media is bent but like it that way and those far too dim to know they are being taken for mugs.

    The thing is that there are smaller sub-divisions in that later group in that some may not even have given the matter any thought but who are far from being stupid – they just have not given the matter any thought believing that it doesn’t affect them personally but may soon be in for a rude awakening after a Brexit or even a Tory government without a Brexit.

    As for the remainder they are either far to dim or out of their heads with drink, drugs or some other addiction or other. If those in for the rude awakening finally awake then independence is home and dry. We simply do not need everyone and even if we did we wouldn’t get them. We just need a comfortable majority.

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    Capella says:
    27 September, 2019 at 9:12 am

    … This unwritten constitution is riddled with loopholes.”

    Well no, Capella, it isn’t riddled with loopholes – it is, in itself, a loophole.

  184. K1 says:

    Robert P, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. I ditto’d Robert J’s comment, not Cubby’s, do try and read the fucking posts, this is getting tiring.

  185. K1 says:

    For clarity, on the point that Robert J was making regarding ‘ad hominem’ attacks on other posters. Pfft!

  186. Dr Jim says:

    @Iain mhor

    You, like me remember the *not normally* stuff they pulled and the SNP knew they were doing it and faught to have that segment removed but of course the 3 British parties did their usual over it and Mundell was never off the BBC yapping about the SNP being troublemakers and liars, then of course the UK did it as we expected they would but of course the media never reported it, it was as if what they’d done never happened

    It’s only a feeling mind, but I believe all the silence from the SNP is because their intention is to use something similar on the UK in reverse, and given that most of the *governance* seems to be by convention that’s why unlike what Alex Salmond used to do which was lay out his thinking and plans only for the UK to thwart them Nicola Sturgeon and her people have just kept their mouths shut and got on with it

    I have every faith in Nicola Sturgeon that if there’s a way to screw the UK into doing what we want she’ll do it
    If any of us were her we wouldn’t yap about what we were going to do after the last time

    I believe and hope that the law is going to be used, and I believe it because why would she say *There will be a referendum and it will be put beyond any legal challenge*
    so of course she’s going to ask for a section 30 knowing that the UK will refuse but I think that part’s for our benefit and the media so they can report their usual *section 30 order has been refused what can the SNP do now it’s over for Nicola Sturgeon and Independence shit* and every body gets angry, but it keeps it all on the front pages and that’s what she wants, publicity for free

    Some will say it’s all wishful thinking because if there was a plan we should know about it, I think that’s just nonsense on a stick because if I was going to poke somebody in the eye I wouldn’t tell them when or which eye so they could duck

    I believe the FM is a really clever angry woman who wants to take revenge on Scotland’s abusers like a beaten wife, she knows she can’t win in a straight fight so her plan is more like a big knife to the base of the scull when their backs are turned

    The folk who keep banging on about the FM being comfortable in her job and not wanting Independence are just muck rakers and doom mongers, she could have been anywhere else if all she wanted was a job, we know she’s been offered high profile stuff but she’s still here and been in the SNP for 30 years, somebody like her doesn’t hang around in a regional parliament job for the money

    Just one guy’s opinion on an FM who could be or do anything she wanted if she wanted to, but I believe she wants Independence for Scotland and she’s determined to do it

    If I’m wrong I’ll eat my own arm

  187. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood ‘Are we just ‘trash’ after all?’

    No, we are not, not one of us, in spite of our differences of opinion.

    Keep reading and posting one and all. It is appreciated.

    Been very interesting to see the points raised by John Major about the dirty tricks suspected planned by LBJ’s gov.

    The experts seem to think it will involve the use of the Civil Contingencies Act – and having looked at it deem it would not work as we ARE NOT CURRENTLY in a state of emergency as defined by the legislation.

    If you have a look at the CCA legislation it covers every emergency you can think of, famine, medical emergency, riots, natural disasters, acts of terrorism, food and water shortages.

    Almost certainly food shortages, and riots will be easily on the cards given a No Deal or even a Hard Deal Brexit.

    But fear not – we ARE NOT CURRENTLY in a state of emergency. Just a few weeks away from it, so its fine.

    About 2 years ago, I said, Brexit made no sense on any level if you looked at it from the reasons given. To risk losing the cash cow of Scotland after getting such a fright in 2014 was madness.

    It makes every sense if by comparison the threat of the EU tax haven legislation threatens the accumulated wealth of the British Establishment (including the Royal Family) who carried out that theft over the course of 400 years – the Spice Trade, the Slave Trade, the Opium Trade to China and the complete and utter asset stripping of entire continents of Africa, India, Malasia, Australia, Canada.

    To put that into context, India estimates 43 Trillion was taken from them. Scotland oil and gas industry has so far supplied between 2 -3 Trillion.

    All tax free and hidden away.

    So Brexit, they play about to make it look like they are trying, but ultimately get a No Deal Brexit – save the tax havens – create a state of chaos, invoke a state of emergency, shut down Holyrood – shut up Scotland for a long, long time. And sell off the NHS for a quick buck.

    Shit or bust as Boris Johnston said – and its about the only time he’s ever said a true thing.

    About 2 years ago, I posted all this and was told I was a conspiracy nutter and promoting SNP Bad.

    The one point that never gets answered, on 31/10/19 once we are out of the EU – what is to stop the Westminster parliament shutting down Holyrood. Just last week they illegally shut down Westminster, and the PM that did it is still in situ!!!!

    The wheels on the No Deal Brexit Bus are still very much on, and the countdown is ticking steadily away.

    We have passed a very important landmark point. As of yesterday we can no longer in the UK or in Scotland hold a legal GE or Referendum (on any subject) before 31/10/19 – there is not the statutory time left to organise it.

    The threat facing the whole of the UK’s democracy now is so great, that I find myself agreeing with John Major, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Amber f***ing Rudd. Truly the world has swung round on its axis.

    If one follows the money, follows the power, and looks at the motives, and with the benefit of hindsight – the above establishment plan is exactly that – not a bumbling series of mishaps, but a well co-ordinated theatre to keep us all occupied.

    From Corbyn to Farage, May to Boris – a man so incompetent he doesn’t even keep the skeletons in the cupboard. Not accidental, not a coincidence. Not a spiteful we mishap that the labour party scuppered Cherry’s bill which would have allowed for a plain revocation of A 50, no way when there is so much at stake.

    I fear the latest theatre we are buying into is the promise of a GE soon. How comforting that sounds when SNP are sitting in the polls looking likely to get 52 seats. It really feels good doesn’t it.

    So I ask again. After 31/10/19 when we are out of Europe, what is to stop WM from shutting down Holyrood? Power devolved is power retained – even on a calm day.

    It will take 3 days of major disruption at the ports – for our supermarket shelves to be almost empty. Stock up now folks.

  188. Daisy Walker says:

    @ TD, ‘Let’s just assume for the moment that Sturgeon has some insight that the rest of us do not have and let’s further assume that she times her move on another referendum perfectly.’

    Lets ASSUME nothing. Lets do our own homework, our own thinking, our own investigations. Lets be independent in mind, spirit and behaviour, lets keep our political reps now and in the future on their toes and honest by being so.

    It’s an old phrase, ‘assumption is the root of all F ups.’

  189. Cubby says:

    Cheers Lenny I love you too.

    Perhaps you should look at some of your friends previous posts before passing judgement. But of course you are entitled to your opinion. Thanks for the ad hom.

  190. Robert Peffers says:

    @Socrates MacSporran says:27 September, 2019 at 9:28 am:

    ” … He will NEVER agree to a Section 30 order …

    Ever considered, Socrates, that the Scots person you think is a fool may just be a little bit cleverer than both you and that Westminster Establishment of collaborating unionists who think the Scot who keeps asking for a section 30 order is a fool?

    Could it be that the continual requesting of a section 30 order is a deliberate Red Herring?

    Consider that the person who keeps asking for a section 30 order has also catagorically stated that there will be an indyref2 with or without a section 30 order then the two stances are in direct conflict with each other.

    I have hinted at the idea that independence may well be gained by means of some other ploy that few have suspected but which seem to be unfolding in the background as we speak.

    Ms Cherry is up to something and that lady is not one for wasting her time on useless gestures.

    I commented before the Scottish Inner Court of Session came to its decision that it would decide as it did and that the Supreme Court had no other option than uphold the decision or risk a full blown constitutional conflict between Scots and English law.
    That is the Supreme Court could not win or if they did find against the Scottish courts decision there would be an automatic appeal to the international courts that The Westminster Establishment would avoid at all costs for the Treaty of Union is what constituted the two partner United Kingdom and that treaty proves beyond all doubt that not only is the UK a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms but that the concept of the Westminster Parliament being sovereign over Scotland is English law and has no place under Scots law and, in any case, the English law that their overall sovereignty relies upon was with the Parliament of England that has not existed since 1 May 1707 as Westminster, on that date, ceased to be the parliament of England and sat, as it still calls itself, The Parliament of The United Kingdom.

    So while people are chasing their tails over this section 30 order, encouraged by the First Minister, perhaps what is unfolding in the background is the real deal. By the way, notice that Boris is attacking the Scottish Parliament and just might burn the fingers on his other hand by doing so.

    We will, as has become usual, just have to wait and see.

  191. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Daisy Walker –

    ‘Let’s ASSUME nothing.’

    Hear hear.

    If there’s a solitary reason why Rev Stu is vilified, it’s because he can think critically and be honest about what he finds as a result.

    Many of us aren’t quite so forensic in our thinking or as adept with facts (or, for that matter, have as good a memory) but that doesn’t stop up trying to engage our minds and think objectively about anything and everything.

    That includes any criticism of the SNP/SG/FM – if it’s malicious nonsense it can be dismissed but if there’s substance to it then we scrutinise and debate. The worst thing to do is wave away any and all criticism as ‘damaging’, with the implication that there is some ulterior motive.

    The current Cummings/Johnson strategy exploits precisely the same kind of reactionary pish.

  192. Cubby says:

    Terry gets it wrong again. Can you not read Terry?

  193. Lenny Hartley says:

    Cubby pot kettle black.

  194. TD says:

    Daisy Walker at 1:15

    “Lets ASSUME nothing.”

    Are you not able to make an assumption for the purposes of exploring a train of thought? Sometimes, to explore an idea, we need to make assumptions to test theories or explanations for observations. It is a normal component of logical thought. And we could certainly do with a bit more of that these days.

  195. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 27 September, 2019 at 9:40 am:

    ” … I wonder how many, like me, agree with you but daren’t show support for fear of being labelled as SNP/SG/NS-baaaaders?”

    Well aren’t you? As they say, “If the cap fits, wear it”.

    Now, let me see, I, and others, get regularly castigated by such as you, (as you have just done), for expressing views that those who constantly run down the FM, SG and SNP are, as must be obvious to all, anti-FM, SG and SNP.

    Seems you imagine this to be not fair comment. Yet it seems it is fair comment not only for you lot to be anti-FM, SG and SNP as well as against anyone who states, correctly, that you are anti-FM, SG and SNP.

    Now, in my book that is not only anti-FM, SG and SNP but hypocritical as well. If it is fair game to be anti-FM, SG, SNP and their supporters then it must also be fair game to be against, and comment, those who run them and us down.

    If you cannot stand the heat – stay out of the kitchen.

    (|That’s a polite way of saying F-off).

  196. Daisy Walker says:


    You make a fair point – I fear in the current climate we are ‘invited’/ lead to assumptions with a notable lack of evidence or explanations.

    Our brains are hardwired to jump to conclusions – usually negative ones – which is why, the red herrings in dramas work for everyone.

    To assume a leader ‘must have a plan’ simply because they are not telling us what it is? Where is the logical thought process or explanation for that, where is the evidence.

    The price of democracy is eternal vigilance – in the arena of politics, I would suggest if we ‘assume’ things we are not actually testing out theories – but are actually allowing ourselves to be really intellectually lazy – and all political parties rely on that and actively play to that deliberately. It is why propaganda works.

    Kind regards – interesting to have my own opinions/assumptions challenged.

  197. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Peffers –

    So, I’m on your list Robert?

    Care to share any other names, or should we fess-up one at a time?

  198. TD says:

    Daisy Walker at 2:03 pm

    “To assume a leader ‘must have a plan’ simply because they are not telling us what it is? Where is the logical thought process or explanation for that, where is the evidence.”

    That is not my thought. I was simply putting forward a scenario which could explain the current behaviour of some independence supporters who seem to take every opportunity to undermine the First Minister and the SNP. But if you ask me if I think it likely that the First Minister has a plan, I would answer “probably”. And I suspect that she is frequently updating and amending it to reflect the rapidly changing political landscape. I also think it highly unlikely that she will share that plan with us because to do so would show her hand to our opponents.

  199. Daisy Walker says:

    @TD 2.11pm

    You make good points, will think on them.

    My overwhelming worry just now, is if – *** assumption *** coming up – if the First Minister has a plan, and I really hope she does – how will she implement it in a UK ruled under state of emergency legislation, and with Holyrood shut down.

    And I get that 2 years ago, everyone could poo, poo that idea – but it is now realistically weeks away and when even a former Prime Minister (who will also have access to info and contacts that we do not, just as FM Sturgeon does) is voicing concern that Civil Contingency Legislation is about to be misused to circumvent parliament.

    It is a vital question, and if there is no set answer, at least we need some confirmation that the realistic threat of this is something which the leader of the SNP is well aware of.

    Likewise people here, need to make their own contingency plans. Will you have enough water, food, fuel. Can you stock up between now and 31/10/19.

    If it comes to the bit, and there are food shortages, if we, the Yessers in Scotland, if we prepare, have enough food/water, we can help, we can cope, we will not panic, we will, as always be the the ambassadors for an Indy Scotland, and we will rob those who play such evil games upon us, of fuel for their fire.

    To those who say any criticism is undermining the SNP – please re-consider. Exploring every avenue, including devils advocate, and Contingency Planning for every eventuality is a strength, not a weakness.

  200. Cubby says:

    Lenny still love you and still love Arran and its golf courses.

    Take care and pass on my best wishes to your friend who It would appear is back to good health. If he calls people wankers on Wings then I am sure he is big enough to handle any retaliation but its still nice that you defend him.

  201. Cubby says:

    It’s a great pity that when I said yesterday that I thought the SNP/Scotgov/Sturgeon detractors would not be satisfied with the breaking news that the Civil service have been working on transition plans to an independent Scotland since 2017 that this would still not satisfy them I would have been happy to have been proved wrong.

    I really do think that with many people this is a hangover from the realisation that the Labour Party had abused their trust ( I think that is a reasonable way of describing it ) in the past and as a consequence have major trust issues with any political party. Fully understandable.

    Oh well everyone is entitled to their opinion.

  202. Daisy Walker says:

    33 days from Brexit, no alternative Deal being negotiated with the EU, a PM who shut down WM Parliament Unlawfully and is still in Power. No Deal Brexit the only thing currently on the statute unless a magic deal is pulled out of the air or an extension agreed.

    So the question was, in what way, will the First Minister (who undoubtedly has a plan – mibees), in what way will she be able to deliver/implement that plan, if there is a situation of chaos, which enables a state of emergency to be implemented, and Holyrood is shut down?

    But lets take the spotlight away from there just now. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

    What can you do, what can I do, what can other Yessers do, what is a good idea, what is a practical and Peaceful plan, in the event that Civil Contingency Acts are invoked and Holyrood is shut down. What do you think would promote the cause of Scottish independence and protect democracy and maybe even provide public support for the FM.

    We have 33 days.

  203. mike cassidy says:

    There is this idea floating around Wings that if Brexit takes place

    Then there is a good chance Holyrood will be shut down.

    Genuine inquiry.

    Is there any evidence for this?

    Is there any reason why those wishing to do so would have to wait until after Brexit?

    Meg Merrilees 11.30

    Landmines have been around a long time.

    Firstly as booby-traps.

    Then the Chinese married the boobytrap idea with explosive power.

    And just to show how weird real-life can be.

    The Falklands penguins that would not explode

  204. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Mike Cassidy

    Holyrood did not come into being without pressure re the democratic deficit from the EU. Tony Blair hated, and is on record, that he hated having to deliver it.

    Therefore while WM could shut down Holyrood now. It would be much easier to do, without there being the possibility of an appeal to the EU to answer to. So after Brexit would be easier.

    Why would they want to shut down Holyrood? To stop you and me going to the polls and winning our independence. And why would that be a big deal? Because Scotland is the only part of the UK currently generating an income, and they need that wealth to pay for Brexit.

  205. yesindyref2 says:

    @RJS / @K1 / @Lenny
    Thanks, it’s sad. There was a stalker doing the same at exactly the same time within minutes, on the Herald, but in a tag team. I think it’s a form of unrequited hero-worship 😎

  206. TD says:

    Daisy Walker at 2:39 pm

    “It is a vital question, and if there is no set answer, at least we need some confirmation that the realistic threat of this is something which the leader of the SNP is well aware of.”

    I would be astonished if the First Minister is unaware of the threats posed by the madness called Brexit and by the unscrupulous manoeuvring of BJ and his cronies. If you and I are, she will be. If the Westminster government tries to circumvent the Benn Act, they will undoubtedly face challenge in the courts, where their track record is not good.

    “Likewise people here, need to make their own contingency plans. Will you have enough water, food, fuel. Can you stock up between now and 31/10/19.”

    If we leave the EU on 31 October without a deal, there is little doubt that there will be shortages of certain food types for a while. I am not aware of any threat to water supplies. I have no inside knowledge, but I would predict that there will be enough to eat – but we may not have the same choices for a while. Prices will go up and we may need to revert to more seasonal selections of fruit and veg. I don’t think people need to stock up.

    In my opinion, the threat is far more serious than shortages of food if the new right prevail in the next few weeks. Our economy will take a serious hit and this will give rise to more discontent. This will drive more people into the arms of those who propose simplistic solutions to complex problems. I know we are not supposed to make comparisons with pre-war Germany, but that is exactly what happened there. Economic hardship led ordinary people to support extremist parties. The courts became a thorn in the side of the new order so they were abolished and replaced with compliant courts which gave more acceptable judgements.

    If Boris gets his no-deal Brexit and then wins an election, expect the Scottish parliament to be under threat, the return of capital punishment (this is off the table for as long as we are in the EU), further cuts to benefits, tax cuts for the rich – I could go on. The only silver lining to this cloud is that support for Scottish independence could rocket – but BJ would happily ignore that and seek to keep us where we are in this union. I fear a Catalonia type situation.

    Far better to stop Brexit, or at least stop a no-deal Brexit, and keep building support for independence. That way is a bit dull and boring, but it is far safer.

  207. Juteman says:

    Wings was so important in Indy 1, that the Brit State/77th Brigade have made a concerted effort to trash the BTL comments nowadays.
    Most of the regular posters have given up under the constant shitstorm from yoon plants.
    We posters that were here for Indy 1 can spot the agents of doom a mile off.
    New visitors to the blog should be aware that British agents are active on here, and think carefully about the concerted effort to attack the SNP, the only party we have to lead us to Indy.

  208. Liz g says:

    Well for what my tuppence worth is worth…
    Exploring the “Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda” is a valuable thing to be doing and not detrimental to our over all aim at all…..
    It turns this place into an ideas and information exchange which is useful beyond measure…

    I say this because,well,I have a confession tae make…

    I spent most of last night on Guido Fox ( yes Rev I cheated on Wings,but you provided the link so it’s partly/mostly your fault and ye’ll never know how truly sorry I am for doing it) 🙂

    Anyhoo, while reading an article on the SC Judgement I wandered below the line…
    OMFG they are certifiable, really actually, insane.
    They discussed “should I bring a bar of soap in my sock” to a Brexit Day rally in London???
    Because by this time I felt like I needed a shower myself, it took me a minute or two of ‘re reading to get what that actually ment!
    Then another one asked ” should I bring *cocktails* ” and a few wanted to imprison MPs in the Tower and wondered if there was room
    But were reassured when another pointed out there is Turrets at the Tower so they would only need rope….

    I shit ye not Wingers that was the quality of the comments.
    Not to mention that when they did actually stay on the topic of the Court case,the sheer stupidity of what they claimed it ment was chilling…

    So take heart Dear Wingers we here no matter how heated we get, are a model of civility and more importantly informed comment…..
    We can do nothing about any disruptors who appear, and will continue to appear here. Except to choose to give or withhold our own time formulating a reply!
    But we sure as shit can keep our standards as high as we always have… Aye….
    Turns oot ( vile cybernat ) Stuart Campbell may be running one of the most civilised political blogs on the net!
    So while I have no way of knowing about the rest of ye that’s one piece of Irony makin me smile 🙂

  209. Liz g says:

    TD @ 3.50
    As I understand it..
    The threat to the water supply is from not being able to get the chemicals to treat the water as they come from mainland Europe.
    We are all used to treated water now so we would probably get ill from untreated water…. Especially babies and the elderly!!

  210. RobertTheTruth says:


    People who say they support Indy but have legitimate anger about the way the SNP is using them as voting fodder are not the 77th.

    Look to your own supposed ‘Big Guns’, insinuating people are not what they say,feeding paranoia and keeping people docile with weasel words.

    It is likely the SNP has been infiltrated by people who have very different aims but they can go way back as well, the longer they are embedded the more credible they may seem. The SNP should look at their own rank and file not at people who are not members and but have been promised so much and are seeing no return for their vote.

    There are people on here who say they haven’t been politically active for 20 years but appear to know the ins and outs of the ‘SNP plan. Really?

    And I repeat, the SNP is not the Independence movement and you are entitled to your opinion that they are your best bet to achieve Indy but people do not have to agree. Decrying every dissenting voice as a unionist plant is absolutely nuts and you don’t realise how bonkers you sound.

    I am active in my local Yes group and my job affords me a position with certain insights and nothing you or any of the SNP members here have any right to say my views are any less legitimate than yours. My anger spills over because I KNOW people here are being fed a line to keep the SNP in power.

  211. Golfnut says:

    Common folks. Nicola is the leader of the SNP in every sense, Holyrood and Westminster. Are we really thinking that Joanne Cherry and Ian Blackford are not discussing or even being directed by Nicola in the actions undertaken by them on behalf of the People of Scotland and the SNP. Why on earth is Nicola the number one target of trolls, media and Britnat politicians. They would just love to see Nicola toppled. Do you really think that any plan which Nicola has, doesn’t include action in Westminster.

  212. Hamish100 says:

    …. and I repeat Robert the fable teller is not an onion.

  213. Daisy Walker says:

    @ TD “Far better to stop Brexit, or at least stop a no-deal Brexit, and keep building support for independence. That way is a bit dull and boring, but it is far safer.”

    I fully support the need to stop Brexit or at least stop a no deal Brexit – our elected reps, are outnumbered, and have 33 days to do so, not all of them working parliament days, so less than that really.

    And we are not at this stage because of bumbling incompetence. We are at this stage because some of the most powerful people on the planet intend to profit from it, and extend their power.

    The Yellowhammer papers indicate there will be 2.5 day delays for lorries at Dover. 14,000 lorries per day currently come in and out at this location. Over 50% of UK fresh food is imported, WM Govt contingency planning is allowing for over 100 miles of lorry tailback down in Dover area – hence operation Stack and the motorway being modified to stack the lorries. They came by the figure for the tailback by measuring the length of the lorries x the number of lorries x the estimated time of processing. Up until about a month ago (not checked since) only 3000 licenses had been issued to British Hauliers for EU travel.

    Speak to any person in management in the supermarket business and they will tell you 3 days without delivery will empty the shelves.

    Yellowhammer – fuel will be subject to tariffs which will make 2 UK refineries uneconomical to run. They will close with a job loss of 2,000. 1600 armed forces personnel are being trained up to deliver fuel throughout the UK.

    45,000 dairy cattle to be slaughtered in the first few months due to being uneconomical to retain in a No Deal Brexit, with I think a 30% tariff imposed on dairy and beef products.

    So, with that in mind, I respectfully suggest to all Yes Voters, if you are able, please, please stock up on emergency food, water, fuel and meds.

    Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. If it never happens, you can eat it all later.

    And if this bad stuff happens. You guys and girls will be the calm and collected ones in the street, in the neighbourhood and in the workplace. That will contribute to Indy Scot in a very real, practical way. That will prevent those who would take a climate of fear and provoke unrest, and douse water on any such fire. That would mean you don’t go hungry.

    It is a contingency plan. Not a smear on anyone (other than the Brexiteers).

  214. PacMan says:

    Daisy Walker says: 27 September, 2019 at 5:26 pm

    So, with that in mind, I respectfully suggest to all Yes Voters, if you are able, please, please stock up on emergency food, water, fuel and meds.

    Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. If it never happens, you can eat it all later.

    And if this bad stuff happens. You guys and girls will be the calm and collected ones in the street, in the neighbourhood and in the workplace. That will contribute to Indy Scot in a very real, practical way. That will prevent those who would take a climate of fear and provoke unrest, and douse water on any such fire. That would mean you don’t go hungry.

    It is a contingency plan. Not a smear on anyone (other than the Brexiteers).

    Sound advice.

    You can bulk buy the packets of pasta and cereal which can be easily stored. The same goes with powdered milk. Extra bread and margarine can be put in the freezer and defrosted for use. The same applies for sandwich filler and packets of biscuits. It makes a not particularly exciting diet but is not perishable and lasts for ages.I had did this in March and didn’t throw anything away. It was done then and will be done again.

    Best strategy is to get in a months supply of food. From what I’ve heard, in the event of a hard Brexit, it will take at least 3 months until some sort of normality can be reached. With a months breathing space, you can then get further food supplies in to last over the next couple of months. Of course if it doesn’t happen then save a months groceries bill and will last until you can use it up.

  215. Doug says:

    Our FM fair gets the English nationalists’ knickers in a twist. Even when she’s being calm and considerate. [Especially so?]

    Rabid English nationalism will bring about the end of the so-called united kingdom. Just by speaking sense she will turn these English nationalists even more against Scotland, and therefore even more against the so-called united kingdom.

  216. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Golfnut at 4.35

    Very well said.

    I see I’m an “SNP drone”. I like that. Might get a few badges made.

    What I find quite entertaining is that whenever I make a few legitimate points they are never answered except with diversionary and often infantile bluster.

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