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Lord Pannick on the streets of London

Posted on September 24, 2019 by

So the Supreme Court has delivered its brutal verdict. The prorogation of Parliament was completely unlawful and now, in effect, never happened. Parliament is officially still in session. The same Parliament that has stupendously failed to solve Brexit for three years can reconvene and continue to fail to solve it. What now?

Jeremy Corbyn stood up a few minutes ago at the Labour conference and demanded that Boris Johnson stand down immediately and hold a general election, as did several other opposition leaders. Which, alert readers may recall, is what Johnson tried to do, twice, barely a fortnight ago, and was blocked by the opposition.

Presumably if he tries again, they all now have to cooperate and vote for it, even though the dissolution of Parliament would render the Benn bill requiring him to ask the EU for an extension first null and void. So there’ll be a general election held on the subject of “Who rules the country – the people or the courts?”, which is what Johnson wanted all along. Um, victory?


PS Fun trivia fact: UK electoral law requires 25 working days between the dissolution of Parliament and the date of a general election. There are exactly 27 working days (inclusive) between now and 31 October.

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721 to “Lord Pannick on the streets of London”

  1. Will the SNP make a commitment that a majority of SNP MP’s in Westminster will be sufficient to declare independence?

  2. Alison Brown says:

    Surely not enough time to hold an election before 31st Oct?

  3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Plenty time. 25 days are required.

  4. Auld Rock says:


    Now let’s get down to a total ‘root and branch’ reform of our outdated political system, starting with the Retirement Home and get down to a written fully codified Constitution and a third millennium Bill of Rights.

  5. Darren (D Doc) Docherty says:

    If there is to be an election, won’t, BoJo need to ask for an extension first?
    Could be seen as a small victory

  6. Spikethedee says:

    I presumed that they would go for a no confidence vote instead. The automatic 14 day window would mean that, after the 2 week break that entails, an election couldn’t be in October.

  7. blackhack says:

    Same old, Same old….Boris will probably just ignore the verdict anyway….Who’s going to arrest him for lying to wee betty, or who’s going to order the return of parliament ??

  8. Cubby says:

    Will Johnson turn up for PMQs tomorrow?

  9. Fergus Green says:

    Bo Jo a Go Go

    Ho Ho 🙂

  10. Lenny Hartley says:

    The only difference will be that the Bills which were ditched will be live again, this means the one making government seek parliaments approval for trade bills will suceed. But if there is a GE before Oct 31 The tories/brexit party will win enough seats to form a government. (Especially after Labours conference); The Tories dont have a deputy PM (Presumably on purpose) So if Boris resigns as Tory leader and PM he will probably stand again for reelection as Tory leader and PM.

  11. Patrician says:

    They have totally lost it now, if in fact they ever had it in the first place.

  12. Rob says:

    Daren (D Doc) Extension? Wouldn’t they avoid that by saying something like “Return Johnson on 30th Oct. and get your no-deal brexit, or return Swinson and get your Art 50 revoked”

  13. Adrian B says:

    It is far from cut and dry that there will be an election before the end of October 2019.

  14. Marcia says:

    In 2014 the No side said we want Scotland to lead the UK. Today it happened. Cue – anti-Scotland love bombing on twitter.

  15. Adrian B says:

    It will be interesting to see how today’s judgement will play out in Europe.

  16. Martin says:

    Excellent title. And accurate analysis. Funny to observe the shitshow but in effect this achieves less than nothing.

  17. Confused says:

    while this is all very beautiful in the sense of GET IT UP YE – the enemy humiliated, their camp in chaos, their lines in disarray, the scribes screeching … I fail to see what practical benefit it is to us.

    – ok, the comedy value is to be savoured but past that.


    I want nothing from england or the english – we don’t need them; as long as we stay in NATO and the EU, we add a fast ferry port, and a 10foot fence at the border, and we are done.

    You should never fuel the delusions of the mentally ill – middle england is a paranoid schizophrenic raving about “EMPIRE” and “PAKIS” and “THU JERMANS” – you never engage or indulge this (and its the same for the trannies)

    the UK is like being locked in a stuck lift with a kleptomaniac lunatic

    – as for boris, some future writer will use him one day to write a “barry lyndon”-in-reverse, where he finally ends up HAPPY, at his level, making hot sweet tea and bacon sarnies on a cafe on the M1

    nice title, rev.

  18. Cubby says:

    SNP MPs get into the HofCommons now and vote to dissolve the Union before any Britnats get back in numbers. LOL

  19. Adrian B says:

    All of Scotland’s Tory MP’s, and MSP’s supported Johnson’s bid to Prorogue Westminster Parliament.

    Perhaps they should be asked to consider their positions in light of the Supreme Court Judgement.

  20. Mik Johnstone says:

    the election NEEDS to be after 1st of November because of the very fact that Boris has been pushing for one since he was shoehorned into the pm’s job…

    Everyone knows its a trap apart from Corbyn… which should scare folk.

  21. Doug says:

    Once again Britnat Westminster and the so-called united kingdom is shown to be the sickest of sick jokes. Kill them all! [Non-violently of course]

  22. Bob Mack says:

    Rev. Would you agree that the only way Parliament can get a deal is to maintain a lame duck Tory government in power?

    An election will see a pro Brexit landslide down south.

    Not looking good either way

  23. Proud Cybernat says:

    Anyone up for arresting the queen (citizen’s arrest) next time she sets foot in Scotland?

  24. dakk says:

    Labour and lib Dems won’t agree to GE again because they won’t win it.

    They will demand an extension to A50 again and kick the ball into long grass again.

    Not sure how an early GE can be forced if the opposition don’t want it because they know they will lose.

    This might just run on and on until another GE is time forced and a new younger pro remain electorate returns a revoke A50 government.

    Which is pretty much what I thought would happen from the beginning.

    Brexit will not happen. The british don’t quite have the balls to do it.

    Which is pretty much what I said years ago

  25. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    No,Stu. As you are well aware Boris wanted a snap GE to allow him to gallop forward with a Brexit majority in Parliament to a No Deal Brexit.

    The various opposition didn’t fall into his trap.

  26. Lochranza says:

    So hopefully we can now suspend the internal indy rammy going on. The UK is utterly done. While we might disagree on tactics and approaches here and there, now is the time to rally round, we are all ultimately on the same side.

    Force the advantage. Dont decend into a UK Labour type civil war. There is an election coming – NOW. Not in 18 mths, how we do that can wait. Its fptp, there is one horse in the race, landslide in Scotland, one party is independence front and foremost and then its game on.

    Rev up the engines, gather your thoughts, plan your campaign – the time is now.

  27. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Rev. Would you agree that the only way Parliament can get a deal is to maintain a lame duck Tory government in power?

    An election will see a pro Brexit landslide down south.”

    Yes, I agree with both of those assertions.

  28. Adrian B says:

    Talk of a general election only serves to delay campaigning for Independence. Marches are nice events to attend for the converted, but they don’t convince the wider general public to back Scottish Independence.

  29. Doug says:

    The ire of English nationalists will reach new levels of shrillness. [Violent shrillness?]

  30. Vestas says:

    LBJ (Lying Bastard Johnson) needs a scapegoat now – Farage has spotted the problem (if he hasn’t explicitly stated it) and is in full panic mode.

    The opposition parties/English MSM can (and will in some cases) go full-on “you lied to the Queen, how can anyone trust you again?” This would sway a lot of little Englanders around here (Tory constituency forever).

    They won’t vote Corbyn (who would, frankly?); they might switch to LibDem or Brexit (Farage’s appeal is starting to wane though) but TBH they’re more likely to stay at home in the next election.

    So LBJ sacrifices Cummings & blames him for lying to Lizzie, misleading parliament. MSM will go along with that.

    I don’t see what else he can do to deflect the “you lied to the Queen” accusations which will come in the next GE. Even Corbyn couldn’t fuck up a line of attack like that.

    I find it all rather amusing at this stage. I’m fairly certain that it’d be the EU’s worst nightmare if somehow A50 got revoked. Imagine it FFS – all those Brexit MEPs there for years!

    If nothing else its been a useful precedent set to limit one aspect of the elective dictatorship which is the UK Govt (of whatever side).

    We’ll miss Lady Hale as head of the SC; next up is uber-unionist Lord Kerr, the tory favourite.

  31. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “No,Stu. As you are well aware Boris wanted a snap GE to allow him to gallop forward with a Brexit majority in Parliament to a No Deal Brexit.

    The various opposition didn’t fall into his trap.”

    Except now they’re demanding EXACTLY that. They’re all calling for him to stand down and call an election RIGHT NOW. Are you even watching?

  32. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Labour and lib Dems won’t agree to GE again because they won’t win it.

    They will demand an extension to A50 again and kick the ball into long grass again.”

    Having both literally just gone on TV and demanded one right now, they’d look so absurd I don’t think even they would dare.

  33. James Utterson says:

    I think all those feeling pleased with themselves and patting each other on the back, need to look up the term ‘Pyrrhic Victory’. What if Johnson or more likely Cummings, knew this was a possibility all along, and may even have been counting on it? We now have Corbyn et al calling for a general election which Johnson wants, and now he can go into that election with a message of ‘the people versus the establishment’. He forms some kind of non-aggression pact with Farage and The Brexit Party, which based on current polling could mean a working majority. This allows Johnson to plough on with a renewed mandate to deliver Brexit, with or without a deal.

  34. Vestas says:

    Lord Reed rather 🙂

  35. Ken500 says:

    More of the shambles. The Courts having to sort out the illegal Westminster unionist imbeciles. Unbelievable. The people that make the Law do not break the Law and are not above the Law.

    Thank goodness for the SNP (Gov) doing everything legal. They do not break the Law and are not above it.

    Hope the Tories do not ruin the SNP Conference date. Just like they ruin everything else. They do not give a fig about Scotland or about everyone else, Johnston the dope on a rope will not last past October. Johnston is a criminal. A con man. Just out for what they can get. Into oblivion they will go, especially in Scotland.

  36. Adrian B says:

    The PM isn’t about to resign – because they are Tories and will do what Tories do. Use one set of rules for opposition and another for themselves.

    For today they Boris Johnson, Jacob Reec Mog and all the Scottish Tories need to have pressure put on them over the Conservative Parties choices and the deeds that they have done.

    I don’t see a General Election getting called today if the Tories are put under sustained pressure.

    The Lib Dems are trying to gain votes from Tories, Labour and SNP voters. A general election could see them gain seats.

    The SNP would gain seats.

    The Tories/Brexit party will get an increase in votes.

    The Tory party conference is this weekend…

  37. Charlie says:

    Adrian B says:

    It will be interesting to see how today’s judgement will play out in Europe.

    With an eye roll and a shrug of their shoulders. This judgement doesn’t change anything in terms of Brexit. Parliament is notoriously divided, so what will it change that they are sitting again? Johnson’s government is not negotiating with the EU, parliament sitting again won’t change that either, as far as I can see.

    Early media commentary in Germany is focusing on the conduct of the PM, interpreting the judgement as a severe rebuke, musing that using the Queen like that is not on and speculating whether this ought to have consequences. Some grasping at straws in terms of the usefulness of parliament in this shitshow (maybe MPs will seek to make the bill about no exit without a deal more ironclad? They couldn’t come up with any other possible actions).

    They don’t seem to put much faith into any of our politicians, that’s for sure, whether they’re sitting as mere MPs, running the country in government or heading up the so-called opposition. Labour’s conference performance doesn’t exactly fill anyone with hope, does it?

    My guess for EU official reactions is that they’ll urge UK to properly engage, time is running out, problems remain unsolved yada yada yada. But that’s just a idle speculation on my part. Maybe they’ll simply beg us to get a grip, who knows…

  38. Richardinho says:

    Lib Dems campaigning on revoking Article 50 so it’s theoretically possible that they could win the general election and stop Brexit.
    In Scotland, the SNP should run on UDI.
    In both cases, it’s last-chance saloon.

  39. callmedave says:

    Para16 ? of the judgement already being raised by BBC presenter as

    “Boris lied to Queenie’ 🙂 Well he did!

    But will it stick… hope so.

  40. callmedave says:


    Bercow bounces back and announces HoC to open tomorrow at 11:30am

  41. Ken500 says:

    Who cares what they do. Just that a S30:comes out of it. Get it through the Courts because Scotland has always been treated unequally. No Democracy. Out vote 10 to 1. Recognised in the EU/UN. The right to self governance and self determination. If people vote for it. ECHR. Just apply for it.

    To succeed vote SNP/SNP Vote for Independence in the the EU. Almost in touching distance. You can smell it. What a time to be alive. Everything to look forward. Nearly at st the final line. Despite the Westminster unionist imbeciles. Aye, Aye, Aye. The next step.

  42. Sandy says:

    Stu said: “they’d look so absurd I don’t think even they would dare.”

    Doesn’t seem to have stopped them so far.

  43. Ken500 says:

    Swinson could lose her seat. Another one gone, another one down, another one hits the dust. Poetic justice.

  44. Alan says:

    Remember every single “independent” MP is motivated to avoid an election by £6500 a month. 31 months until May 2022. Many of them will do whatever is necessary to keep their personal taps flowing.

    So don’t be surprised when Parliament finds some way to stall that election a little longer. Or even a lot longer.

  45. Adrian B says:


    “Lib Dems campaigning on revoking Article 50 so it’s theoretically possible that they could win the general election and stop Brexit.
    In Scotland, the SNP should run on UDI.
    In both cases, it’s last-chance saloon.”

    Lib Dems will only improve on existing position – they lost a lot of trust and votes/Mp’s from going into coalition with Cameron’s government. In Scotland they may gain a single seat at a GE.

    SNP are following a process and even Alex Salmond would never of actually gone for UDI. Most SNP voters will not back a UDI vote and this would result in SNP losing Scottish seats.

  46. Robert Peffers says:

    @Auld Rock says:24 September, 2019 at 11:24 am:

    ” … Now let’s get down to a total ‘root and branch’ reform of our outdated political system, starting with the Retirement Home and get down to a written fully codified Constitution and a third millennium Bill of Rights.”

    And will that written constitution apply to both kingdoms in the United Kingdom?

    Will it be under the English Kingdom’s Rule of law or the Scottish Kingdom’s rule of law or both?

    Will it supersede the Scottish Claim of Right?

    Will it do away with the independent Scottish legal system or the independent English legal system or do away with both and write a new United Kingdom Rule of Law for the first time in history?

  47. Vestas says:

    We all know Lizzie was (and is) fully aware of the truth of the matter (she employs an expensive team of advisors) & I doubt LBJ had to lie.

    Imagine it :

    “Your Majesty we need to get out of the EU to prevent our/your tax “indiscretions” becoming public knowledge with new EU tax disclosure laws. These plebs keep stopping us so how about we shut them down for a month and then its too late? Oh and of course it takes the limelight off your sons sexual indiscretions with underage girls. Don’t worry about jock courts, nobody takes any notice of them. Plus all our friends & relatives have a £8.3bn short position on the pound for Halloween”

    Trebles all round as Private Eye used to put it 🙂

  48. Jack Murphy says:

    Joanna Cherry QC MP makes a statement to Sky News and others this morning:


  49. Jack Murphy says:

    The proper Cherry link:

  50. dakk says:

    ‘they’d look so absurd I don’t think even they would dare.’

    Since when has absurdity not been de rigeur in establishment british politicians.

    Just watch them.


  51. dadsarmy says:

    Outstanding. And Unanimous. I’m not surprised though, it was the only thing the UKSC COULD do.

    Been watching it on Sky, pause, rewind, and it’s been great exposure for the SNP and Sturgeon, how she managed not to break down in tears of hysterical laughter I have no idea, I’d have been a puddle on the floor.

    But Independence aside, a great day for UK democracy, and I think there could be a lot of consequencecs from this, if MPs take note: Representative Democracy is paramount.

    I’m looking at you, Section 30 Order. Quick as you like. Ta.

  52. Robert Peffers says:

    @blackhack says: 24 September, 2019 at 11:27 am:

    ” … who’s going to order the return of parliament ??”

    The UK Supreme Court just did order the return of parliament, blackhawk. Now they all must obey or get arrested as criminals.

  53. McBoxheid says:

    Since when has the parliamentary labour party ever agreed with Corbyn? Party leaders have to seen to call out this behaviour from the tory leader, but getting all their fellow MPs to agree by the amount that is needed, is a different thing altogether.

    Considering what is being played out by the tories, its like playing poker where everyone sees each others hands, I reckon they will call for his resignation, but not get the majority needed till after OCT 31 or after an extension is granted, whichever comes first.

  54. Gordon Keane says:

    I thought SNP was wrong not to c#go along with the General Election idea a few weeks ago.
    It is essential we have one now.

  55. callmedave says:

    From the way Blackford is talking up an election asap they might support Boris in a self imposed vote of no confidence.

    Risky and might not have the numbers going it alone but opportunity knocks (Labour in Scotland howls with derision).

    The SNP should do well enough in Scotland while the Tories sweep up the seats in England. What happens then God-Knows? 🙁

  56. McBoxheid says:

    Robert Peffers says: at 1221
    Will it do away with the independent Scottish legal system or the independent English legal system or do away with both and write a new United Kingdom Rule of Law for the first time in history?

    Would either not breach the Treaty of Union?

  57. Millsy says:

    The only sensible way out of this morass would appear to be another vote – but THIS time with the benefit of people having seen the drawbacks etc… of exiting the EU .

    If Leave wins again then NO ONE can argue with that result ( assuming that there are no large red buses running around with misleading slogans on them ! ).

  58. manandboy says:

    “One notable consequence of the judgment, not to be overlooked in the other excitements, is for the Union.
    By not overruling the Scottish court of session decision on Johnson’s actions, the supreme court has upheld Scottish judges against English ones, and has removed a potential source of grievance for the SNP against “London judges” if the ruling had gone the other way.” (Martin Kettle :Guardian)

  59. dadsarmy says:

    What has happened though, is that without the Court of Session ruling, the UKSC would not have upheld the Miller appeal.

    So basically though of course Pannick is a hero, it’s as O’Neill asked on behalf of Cherry – if Scots law is better than English law, then take the better Scots law. And that is what 11 UKSC judges did unanimously, they upheld Scots law, and dismissed the inferior English law.

    And that my dears, is where I really do dissolve on the floor in floods of tears, oh my aching belly.


  60. Auld Rock says:

    Robert, any new UK Constitution would only cover Reserved Matters and where Westminster is the Parliament. I’m sure it’s not outwith the drafters to incorporate Scottish Law, the Supremacy of the Scottish Parliament on all matters Devolved.

    Of course Robert I would prefer to see an Independent Scotland writing its own Constitution and Bill of Rights.

  61. Jim Thomson says:

    @manandboy 12:35pm

    Have you been listening in to my conversations again?

    Just made that very point to my better half.

    I can’t see how this benefits us in terms of tactical or strategic advantage.

  62. Robert Peffers says:

    @Adrian B says:24 September, 2019 at 11:57 am:

    … Marches are nice events to attend for the converted, but they don’t convince the wider general public to back Scottish Independence.”

    And your proof of that claim is what exactly?

    Fact is that, according to many Wingers, the FM/SG/SNP are doing nothing to get independence. So considering the SNP membership is increasing and opinion polls are showing that support for independence is also growing then if the marching isn’t winning converts – what is?

  63. blackhack says:

    Robert Peffers
    @24 September, 2019 at 12:25 pm
    At least get my name right ??

  64. Cubby says:

    Johnson options:

    1. Resign

    2. Carry on regardless (the T. May approach).

    3. Double down on his lawlessness and Prorogue parliament again.

    My money is on option 2.

  65. callmedave says:


    I think your right there the Scots also unanimous verdict 3-0 added extra weight to the Sup Court’s conundrum and basically they caved in.

    Also (legal matters aside) ‘the establish’ darn Sarf don’t like Boris and are well rid of him and his cronies as a too much of rocking the gravy boat.

  66. doug bryce says:

    Lets not forget something *VERY* important.

    The Scottish prorogation Case was made partly on basis of the “claim of right” which enshrines the sovereignty of Scottish people to pick government that suits their needs.

    In England the queen lends sovereignty to Westminster.
    In Scotland the people remain legally sovereign.
    A major difference!

    Westminster might be parliament of UK but it is also bound by Scots law. It seems the Scottish court succeeding is conformation of that 😉

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    @Doug says: 24 September, 2019 at 11:57 am:

    ” … The ire of English nationalists will reach new levels of shrillness. [Violent shrillness?”

    Perhaps so but will that be a bad thing or a good thing?

  68. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland might be rubbish at football and rugby but we’ve proved that our legal team can teach the English what the law is and how to apply it, Scotland 11 England 0

    I know I’m trolling them but hey how often do we get the chance *Giggle*

  69. HYUFD says:

    So the UK Supreme Court upholds the verdict of the Scottish Court, bad news for the SNP who were desperately hoping to whinge about Scotland being ignored

  70. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…the supreme court has upheld Scottish judges against English ones…”

    And quite possibly prevented England from having its full English Brexit. Many in England will now be looking at what is holding them back and will see the Treaty of Union and the Scots. They have already been loud on twitter with the #fuckoffScotland hashtag. Today’s outcome can only magnify that sentiment a million-fold. England will be demanding a referendum to leave the UK for that will be seen as the clear and unambiguous route out of the EU.

    It remains to be seen whether WM will grant England a S30 order.

  71. Hamish100 says:

    Congratulations to the labour party for fighting for our rights lol!!

    They will claim the victory.

    Tories in Scotland – who supported the lying to HM Betsy and to close down Westminster- have you left your sewer yet?

  72. Iain says:

    We’re aa doomed a tell ye, man, we’re aa doomed. Unless … well, you know the script.

  73. callmedave says:

    Cancel the Blackford’s enthusiastic tilt at an election asap as the FM still holds that Brexit proceedings must unfold then an election. 🙂

  74. Bob Mack says:


    Poor spin on that one I’m afraid. You should open a laundry.
    They like spinners.

  75. dadsarmy says:

    I think perhaps it’s another planned step, and Sturgeon deserves an Oscar for not collapsing in a heap laughing.

    But even if not part of a plan, it’s a highly important step forward. Scots Law is being respected, but so too is Scotland’s highest court – the Inner House of the Court of Session. And THAT is perhaps the best bit of it all, depending on what’s to come.

  76. Bob Mack says:

    We have a government held hostage by the oppozition. Why let that opportunity go by having an election?

  77. dadsarmy says:

    @doug bryce
    Indeed, though someone somewhere incorrectly talked about the Bill of Rights, the English equivalent with the big difference I pointed out the other night. The thing is, that both sit a little bit unhappily side by side in the so-called UK unwritten Constitution.


  78. Dr Jim says:

    Nicola Sturgeon was quite right not to mention the Queen as she’s not important or even pertinant to the argument, her day will come but for entirely other reasons

    Still folk are moaning about the Queen’s role in this debacle and they’re wrong, the Queen doesn’t get to decide what she’ll agree to or not,she’s told what to sign, she’s only a figurehead of Monarchy, a sham, a facade if you like because you can’t have a democracy and a Monarchy at the same time, the Queen’s a tourist attraction she has the power to decide how many sugars she has in her tea and that’s about it

  79. Vestas says:

    For those of you thinking its a Scots court victory (which it is), that’s not the way its being reported in England.

    Down here its an appeal win for Gina Millar/etc, not as a confirmation of Scots law being superior (ie better) than English law in the matter of when parliaments should sit.

    I rather thought that the “Millar” case was upheld on the basis that the “Cherry” case was confirmed.

    The English MSM are doing what they do – covering England & English interests. No surprises.

  80. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    A climate apocalypse is coming. A 16-year-old tells the most selfish generations of all time that they’re not mature enough to tell the truth about it.

    Meanwhile in the UK a Donald Trump tribute act, in order to let a few hedge funders and tax avoiders make more billions, shuts parliament down by fibbing to a 93-year-old head of state, as her son Andrew skulks around the corridors searching for fresh young prey.

    Then when the courts rule this lie unlawful the Trump tribute act will return to the palace and lie again to get parliament shut down, and the head of state will nod her crowned head and go along with this new lie, if she understands it at all, and then ask the tribute act if that smell of wee is him or her.

    This is how far the UK has come by 2019, with climate catastrophe just years away. Still, it’s the greatest political entity in all human history, right?

  81. Fixitfox says:

    Mr Cairns’ next cartoon should be a stoater.

    Well played Joanna Cherry.

  82. Vestas says:

    @ Dr Jim – you seriously believe the Queen plays no part in politics?

    Australia 1975 ring any bells? No?

    Apologies for wikipedia link but they have this one about right :

    The idea the Queen (or any of the “Windsors”) are neutral in political matters is utterly risible.

  83. Robert Peffers says:

    @Adrian B says: 24 September, 2019 at 12:19 pm:

    ” … In Scotland, the SNP should run on UDI.”

    Under Scots law the people are legally sovereign and a sovereign’s word is law so it is legally impossible for Scotland to declare independence unilaterally as long as the Government at Holyrood declaring independence has a majority from the legally sovereign people and the people’s mandate to declare independence it cannot be a unilateral declaration.

    Furthermore, it is universally recognised that in international treaties any of the signatories to the treaty can withdraw from the treaty at will and the Treaty of Union has only two signatory kingdom so a Scottish Kingdom withdraw from the Treaty of Union ends the United Kingdom. No such thing as an rUnited Kingdom is legally possible.

  84. Garrion says:

    Y’know, a cynical eye might see that whoever wanted a no deal brexit has played a series of blinders. Interesting how in the face of the most egregious and borderline unconstitutional shenanigans, we are still supposed to quietly adhere to a meek and procedural approach to asserting a right to determine our own constitutional position.

    I’m not a radical, but Im beginning to suspect that if we continue to play within the rules, we’re going nowhere. Ever.

  85. Frank Gillougley says:

    I really don’t care for Westminster in all of this.
    What are the SNP mps doing, or hoping to achieve, by upholding it?

  86. Robert Peffers says:

    @Vestas says: 24 September, 2019 at 12:21 pm:

    ” … We all know Lizzie was (and is) fully aware of the truth of the matter (she employs an expensive team of advisors) & I doubt LBJ had to lie.”

    What Her Majesty does is governed, not by a royal employed team of advisors, but by the Privy Council:-

  87. Vestas says:

    @ Robert Peffers :

    Yes and she employs her own political advisors – its a matter of public record.

    What’s your point?

  88. Adrian B says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    I was quoting another poster.

  89. Fixitfox says:

    Boris Johnson is, right now, pissing on the Supreme Court’s judgement.He will pursue a nodeal brexit on 31st October.No intention of resigning (yet).

  90. HYUFD says:

    Robert Peffers The current Scottish government had no manifesto commitment nor mandate from Scottish voters to unilaterally declare independence even at Holyrood 2016 elections

  91. uno mas says:

    Joanna Cherry is going to speak at the AUOB march in Edinburgh.

    NOW we´re cooking by gas!!

    Was considering if I should fly in from Spain to attend.

    Now i´m going on-line to see if I can book flights.

    See you all there!!!

  92. Muscleguy says:

    Is it too much to hope that some Scottish Polis are on their way down to arrest the occupant of No10 under Scots law?

    I bet they are not.

  93. Golfnut says:

    I haven’t read all the comments, so excuse if already said, but is there not now a second case being brought before the Court of Session regarding an extention. They are asking the COS to order Johnston to ask the EU for a 90 day extension, if he fails to do so, the Court will act on his behalf. Noblis something, not sure if this could be done through the English courts.

    Just for clarity though, despite what’s being reported, the SP upheld the ruling of the inner house of the COS, and upheld the appeal against the English courts ruling.

  94. Ghillie says:

    Honestly Stuart. Trust you to throw cold water on this.

    On a brighter note.

    If Boris is still in the USA are we going to have to have him extradited?

    And on a brighter note yet:


  95. Socrates MacSporran says:

    John Profumo a minor government officer – shagged a very-enthusiastic amateur, then lied to Parliament, and was cast into the outer darkness for his troubles

    Prikme Minister Boris Johnston shaggs an unlimited number of enthusiastic amateurs, then, on a different matter, lies to the Queen.

    So he will probably be re-elected PM.

    Scotland ahs got to get out of that place..

  96. Dr Jim says:

    @ Vestas
    Every word you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote, what you wrote was your interpretation of what you think

    The Queen has no political authority, none whatsoever, the fact that she interfere’s doesn’t mean anyone must pay the slightest bit of attention to anything she says because if they stupidly do the consequences are on their head not the Queen’s

    The Queen can only hope that people pay attention to her she can’t command that they do

  97. Doug says:

    Because of this ruling we can confidently predict a rise in support for Johnson from tory and brexit England. English nationalism is about to explode. This will further accentuate the differences between Scotland and England. Good.

  98. Jack Murphy says:

    Scotland’s man in Johnson’s Cabinet, Alister Jack MP, Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Scotland is keeping awful quiet today.

    He’s the Tory MP for Dumfries and Galloway if anyone’s asking.

  99. Ghillie says:

    Don’t be daft Garrion.

    No Deal Brexit will be bulldosed through somehow. Too much wealth has to be kept hidden from the new EU Tax Laws for starters.

    Scotland voted against Brexit and that battle is currently being fought.

    The need for Independence has been well and truly laid bare for all the soft No’s.

    Step by step we move forward towards Independence.

    A Section 30 would be nice but lets see what happens 🙂

  100. Vestas says:

    @ Dr Jim :

    I’d really love to live in your world where the “Windsors” have no influence on elected politicians.

    In the link I gave you Big Ears was gung-ho for ruling the Aussies as Governor General with mummies support. Lots more on that these days as the internet makes things hard to hide from populations.

    More recent stuff is the Grauniad suing for Big Ears “spider letters” to ministers for years, remarkable how little influence he had (feel the sarcasm, do you?).

    Dear gods are you really this naive?

  101. Adrian B says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    “And your proof of that claim is what exactly?”

    Polling and talking to voters

    “Fact is that, according to many Wingers, the FM/SG/SNP are doing nothing to get independence. So considering the SNP membership is increasing and opinion polls are showing that support for independence is also growing then if the marching isn’t winning converts – what is?”

    When talking to people who voted ‘No’ in 2014 it is Brexit as the shit show that it is in many areas that is moving people away from the UK.

    For some it is about “Britain’s standing in the world” or the “chaos of Brexit”, not all have made the full journey to Yes and I suspect that deep down many may chose not to vote next time around, rather than vote Yes or No.

    There are other problems though, A massive number of voters have disappeared from the Electoral Roll – while work has been done here we are still missing a l-o-t of folk. EU nationals in particular are keeping their heads down and they are not the only ones absent from the Electoral role.

    Working class areas are proving to be weaker than needed in many places. It is mainly the Tory vote that I see moving to Yes

    There is a strong number of Pro Brexit SNP voters – that still want Brexit more than Independence – some do say that they will vote for Indy but who can say.

    As for who is campaigning for Indy, well the SNP should have better communication to elected members, and there should be more campaigning on the streets and around doors than is actually happening, but within the Indy grassroots movement there is a strong handful of the usual suspects campaigning – but thousands of people are still sitting on their arse and complaining, rather than getting out and putting forward the positive case for Indy. There are notable Wingers out there working, but there are many that are not.

    What is your experience?

  102. Robert Peffers says:

    @Vestas says: 24 September, 2019 at 1:19 pm:

    ” … Yes and she employs her own political advisors – its a matter of public record.
    What’s your point?”

    My point is that no matter what the monarch employs to give her advice she must do what the privy council tell her to do. I’ll put that another way for you – What the Privy Council tells her to do she must do- her own advisors will only give advice on her personal and family matters.

    For example – the law says that after a general election Her Majesty summons Her Majesty’s chosen person to her presence and commands that person to form Her Majesty’s Government. However, it is the Privy Council that chooses, (and note this well), “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”. The post of, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”, denotes that originally Her/His Majesty’s Prime Minister was the Monarch’s representative and not the government’s:-

    This explains it but may be a little misunderstood. The office of Prime Minister evolved from before the revolutionary times when the parliament rebelled against the monarchy and claimed the Monarch’s sovereignty.

  103. Adrian B says:

    “Proud Cybernat says:

    The kickback in England begins:

    To Quote the Tories in Scotland, “We voted ‘NO’ in 2014 and we meant it”

  104. Dr Jim says:

    Predictably within moments of the judgement in this case England’s twitter haters are tapping furiously away with the *How dare the SNP* agenda

    Watch how quickly Joanna Cherry and the SNP, todays saviour of English democracy is turned on by the other politicians who wanted the same thing but in order to please the rabid dogs whose votes they’ll need to get themselves re-elected that’ll all change because what Scotland did using the law today

    The might do again for their next purpose

    It’s all going rather well

  105. Iain mhor says:

    Well, that’s nice. So another 5 years of the Tories after a GE.
    Yeah, It won’t make a blind bit of difference to Scotland in regards to who we vote for. Nor will it make a blind bit of difference to whether Scotland Brexits (checks note for Labour/Tories pledging to revoke A50) nope.

    The only consolation(?) is possibly the flexing of the Law regarding powers of Government & Parliament. But I can’t shift the feeling, that when Courts get involved, it’s an abrogation of the electorates power (I really don’t want to use the “S” word again) So, if we know our next government in Scotland will be Labour or Tory (Tory) and we know what our membership status of the EU will be (out) what then is pertinent to Scotland.

    Well, to keep picking a scab – “what are the plans for Scotland”? Not “What are Scotland’s plans”? Because the next incumbent Government must have plans for Scotland. We’ve heard tricky Dickie Leonard posit a new Scotland Act. (Hmm…seems I covered such an eventuality recently) If Labour thinks that’s a jolly wheeze, we can be sure the Tories do also.
    Whoever is next up, is going to get round to Scotland at some point and has to be seen to be doing something. Or more precisely, seen to be doing something, not for Scotland but the Union – because ‘make Britain great again’. That will mean revisiting all the existing legislation and amending it.

    Yes, it can be argued that successive governments can’t be bound by prior legislation – Great, I look forward to the next Scottish party governing at Westminster and sorting things out in 5 years. Any amendments won’t be altered in Scotland’s favour by any future government, why on earth would they?
    Even on the vanishingly small chance a Unionist party needed Scottish votes and would make a concession (they don’t and won’t) So we’ll shortly be stuck back with powers over road signs again, while the big boys in the new Queen Libby gaff get on with governing Scotland.
    If you’d like an idea of how that works – Section 28(7)(8) should be the reminder.

    Oh and from where did the recent ‘2/3rds’ thing surface – the Scotland Act 31A – tweaked and extrapolated to encompass the electorate. Talk it up first as a oosition, then as policy then create it as legislation at the first opportunity -job’s a good ‘un. That’s only one possible example of the upcoming Scotland Act 2020 (insert numeral of choice) Yes, there will have to be a new Act, because all the EU related stuff will need to be excised and where you can cut, you invariably paste.

    Nothing I’ve written here gives any insight into how Scotland achieves her Independence, or staves off the UK Parliament and whichever Unionist Government squats there (sorry about that if you hung in this far) Excepting, possibly and sadly, recourse to ‘Courts of Law’ as an arbiter. Sadly, because that is an abrogation of “S…” isn’t it, and as I posted a while ago – historically Scotland tried various arbiters, it did not work out well.

  106. Adrian B says:

    Remember people that the Governments key argument in court was that Prorogation wasn’t about Brexit

  107. dadsarmy says:

    With Scots Law being properly recognised in the aegis of the Court of Session, the Queen isn’t really a problem, nor are her heirs. Unlike in Indy Ref 1, they either behave themselves or they get their marching orders. Bye now, pay for your own fish dish. Leave the cutlery behind, it’s not yours, eat it out of a copy of the Claim of Right 1689.

  108. Vestas says:

    @ Robert Peffers :

    IIRC she has selected a Prime Minister other than that proposed to her – name escapes me & don’t have time to search right now. Perhaps you’d be kind enough to verify?

    Regarding the Privy Council – she clearly only has to listen to the representative of the PM, not the entirety of the council so things move on from the original intent.

    “Spider letters” from Big Ears prove political involvement and to assume a (parasitical) family who has held power in England for centuries is apolitical is, I’d suggest risible.

    Such are the dangers of no written constitution. Then again LBJ may have got away with today’s SC decision had there been.


  109. Dr Jim says:


    Perhaps English is not your first language but certainly misinterpretation of what others say is

    Nowhere did I write about the Queens influence or anything regarding that I said she has no political power, none, nada, zilch, she is in effect a picture postcard employed in the deception of a population into thinking they have two things at one time, a monarchy and a democracy

    Now please stop it you’ve become boring now

  110. brian watters says:

    Parlaiment needs to force Johnson to get an immediate extension for brexit . THEN call an election !
    The SNP needs to highlight the stunning fact that even after ALL of this malarky that Boris Johnson will probably WIN that election and win it comfortably in England .
    Let England do what England clearly wants to do , Our destiny must be in our own hands , and its clearly time to put all efforts into promoting INDEPENDENCE not saving England from itself !

  111. callmedave says:

    Boris in NY there waxing lyrical about British beef exports to the USA just what America wants …as apposed to haggis he ‘jokes’

    Much hilarity in the room ….jolly hockey sticks. 🙁

    PS: News we we are:

    Meanwhile North of the wall a crime rate crisis stalks the land says wee auntie wie a kilt. FGS!

  112. dadsarmy says:

    Why don’t the SNP DO SOMETHING rather than sit around watching TV?

    *don’t be humour challenged*

  113. Robert Peffers says:

    @HYUFD says: 24 September, 2019 at 1:23 pm:

    ” … Robert Peffers The current Scottish government had no manifesto commitment nor mandate from Scottish voters to unilaterally declare independence even at Holyrood 2016 elections.

    Have you some problem understanding English, HYUFD? I’ve just explained why a Scottish Government cannot declare UDI. What is your point? Under Scottish law the people, or a mandated representative of the people can legally declare independence.

    The SNP’s entire raison d’être is to gain independence for Scotland – ergo any vote for the SNP is a vote for independence and even if the voter does not specifically vote for reasons of Scottish Independence the voter must certainly be aware that whatever the SNP does they do to gain independence.

    For example the SNP government at Holyrood does its level best to be the best party to run Scotland as that gains voters to the party of independence. If you do not believe that to be so then consider the, “N”, in SNP stands for national it does not stand for nationalist yet every unionist party, and the MSM, calls them the Scottish Nationalist party. They all certainly know a vote for SNP is a vote for independence.

  114. Vestas says:

    @ Dr Jim :

    Sorry I misunderstood this :

    “The Queen has no political authority, none whatsoever, the fact that she interfere’s doesn’t mean anyone must pay the slightest bit of attention to anything she says because if they stupidly do the consequences are on their head not the Queen’s

    The Queen can only hope that people pay attention to her she can’t command that they do”

    Or is it this :

    “Nowhere did I write about the Queens influence or anything regarding that I said she has no political power, none, nada, zilch, she is in effect a picture postcard employed in the deception of a population into thinking they have two things at one time, a monarchy and a democracy”

    I’m hugely confused 😀

    Sorry if its boring you but you seem conflicted. Rangers much?

  115. Cubby says:

    BBC Reporting Scotland – Scotlands top anti Scotgov/SNP propaganda broadcaster.

    “Well this mornings historic ruling by the Supreme Court has of course been greeted with glee by the Scottish National Party.”

    What a snide comment. Tells you all you need to know about the people writing the scripts at Propaganda Quay. Britnats to their core.

    As is normal they then proceeeded to present another Scotland is rubbish report with a report on increase in violent crime in Scotland. No figures/graphs putting the percentage increase they quoted in a time period or actual numbers context. Par for the course for Propaganda Quay – get a negative headline out there.

  116. Cubby says:

    Can some people not read or are they just hard of thinking. How many times does it have to be explained on Wings that Scotland cannot do a UDI.

  117. Mad Jock McMad says:

    The point has been proven, Westminster is not a democratic institution in its current political incarnation no matter the UKSC judgement.

    Johnson has merely demonstrated Westminister is an elected dictatorship with actual power in the hands of the few and not the many. Johnson and Cummings still hold all the power unless Johnson is arrested for treason, as he has demonstrably lied to the Queen. Could the Speaker have Johnson arrested?

    The British Establishment will not let Johnson’s arrest happen, they have far too much to lose, in terms of the billions on an October 31st Brexit financial gamble which they stand to make, having short sold sterling for the last six months.

    An election will change nothing in the UK given the Labour Brexit Pushmepullyou and the slythey toads of the Libdems.

    The only certain change for good is for Scotland to repeal the 1707 Act of Union of the Scottish Parliament asap.

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @Muscleguy says: 24 September, 2019 at 1:25 pm:

    ” … Is it too much to hope that some Scottish Polis are on their way down to arrest the occupant of No10 under Scots law?
    I bet they are not.”

    You will win your bet, Muscleguy, and for several reasons. First being that they would have done so after the Court of Session ruled Boris acted illegally if that was an offence that he could be arrested for. The point is it was ruled illegal – not criminal.

    Even if it had been the English Police have no powers of arrest in Scotland and Scottish polis no powers of arrest in England.

    Unless they have changed the law it used to be the case that, for example, the Scottish Polis were in, “Hot Pursuit”, of a criminal down the A/M74 and the criminal made it to the M6 they Polis had to turn back empty handed and the English Police couldn’t chase a bad guy/gal onto the A/M74.

    Although it does stick in my mind there had been an arrangement made to allow police/polis chases in either direction some years back but I’m not sure about if it came to be legal. Under normal conditions if the English want to arrest someone in Scotland, or the Scots make an arrest in England they have to call upon the home force to make the arrest and then hand over the criminal to the home team.

    Anyway it is academic as Ms Cherry explained it after the Court of Session verdict that there was a legal difference between illegal and criminal.

  119. Adrian B says:

    “Cubby says:

    Can some people not read or are they just hard of thinking. How many times does it have to be explained on Wings that Scotland cannot do a UDI.”

    A lot of these comments likely come from folk who are rightly upset and scared by the events from Westminster policies, the Brexit Shit Show and they *think* that a quick UDI solves everything instantly.

    Even IF UDI was possible – Scots wouldn’t go for it, we need a democratic vote to gain Independence. The polls are resolutely not moving dramatically in our favour right now. I see a lot of people that will not change their minds until people see what happens with Brexit.

    They want to see an A > B comparison.

  120. Dr Jim says:


    You’ve been advised by @Robert Peffers in more eloquent words than I used on the Queen’s position in politics but let’s go one more time as you definitely seem hard of understanding

    If the HM The Queen had political power you would be able to vote for her but you can’t because she doesn’t, she’s a benefit recipient from a cooked up pretence at democracy to fool the uneducated and it’s worked for hundreds of years

    Now if you want to doff your cap for her or tug your forelock it’s entirely a matter for you but has no actual or tangible significance or even meaning other than your particular feelings of subservience or respect for an artificial construction engineered to make you think you might like to do so

    As to your football reference I must say you’re really struggling with such nonsense, grow up

  121. AuldGranny says:

    “even though the dissolution of Parliament would render the Benn bill requiring him to ask the EU for an extension first null and void.”

    No it wouldn’t.

    The Benn bill received Royal Assent as is therefore law.

    An extension HAS to be requested from the EU if no deal is approved by Parliament before the 19th of October.

  122. Vestas says:

    @ Dr Jim :

    Descending into fantasy now aren’t you.

    I was the one who said she did have influence and control which was wrong…

    You said she didn’t and defended her – using capitals around “Queenie” 🙂

    People can read the comments you know? They’re not dumb although you clearly think they are.

    Nice try but I’ve been here funding the site since before you arrived.

  123. HandandShrimp says:

    Corbyn’s enthusiasm for an election is nothing if not interesting. Despite all the bizarre triangulation and tacking around the issues the polls still say Labour face a mountain to climb.

    Boris, incompetent liar that he is, looks set to remain PM. Whether the 32% or so he may end up getting will give him a majority is another matter. If he gets a hefty majority in England and little or nothing elsewhere then we may face a very hostile Westminster or, more positively, one that doesn’t care whether we remain in the union. Either way , the next 8 weeks or so are likely to pivotal on a great many issues. A far right Tory government with a majority will not only see a No deal Brexit but a pretty awful road to a 75 retirement age and next to nothing in terms of wealth redistribution, environmental protection and social welfare.

    These moments are forks in the road that will have future historians pondering what if.

  124. dadsarmy says:

    BoJo’s in New York and so can’t be arrested in England unless he’s using the matter transmitter as in “Beam me up Jockie” which is exceedingly unlikely, and not a very tasty cake either.

    However, since he seems determined to carry on regardless, this stage in the legal ladders and ladders has gone perfectly, and it’s quite likely the next one will be where the IH of the CoS signs “pp” for BoJo for a 3 months extension request to the EU, once the HoC fail to agree the deal going back through by the 16th Oct or whatever date. Yes please. But what’s a nobile officium between friends?

    The cat’s looking hungry and the pigeons are going “coo”.

  125. Dr Jim says:

    @ Vestas

    Many people on this site know exactly who I am and know my opinions on HM The Queen also and none of what you are writing in any way reflects anything I have ever written or spoken in my entire life of 70 years

    This is my last reply to your silly nonsense, either learn to read or learn to understand words if that’s at all possible, and as to what you choose to fund or how long you’ve been funding it for is of little consequence regarding your ability to communicate or tell the truth and your attempts at sarcasm are more than childish

    The Queen is what I said she is a figurehead of no more importance than that which some people choose to endow her with but that does not include power, I myself choose the no option to that, you may choose the yes option, it’s of no importance to me one way or the other because it does not affect anything other than your deference to something you choose

    Oh and there’s one part of what you said which is an outright lie, mistakes are OK but lies aren’t, now do one and take your lies with you

  126. callmedave says:

    Hmm! Just heard Blackford on big auntie news arguing a case for an immediate GE which is what I assumed earlier on up thread but FM later said Brexit comes first.

    Different hymn sheets … maybe our WM MPs have changed their mind since they were reported as having cautioned the FM to hold on a few months ago.

    Blackford confident of SNP playing their part in Scotland by taking more seats but tells the commentator that the opposition parties darn Sarf they must play their part.

    Mood music alright though but shurley they must get a similar hymn sheet for the words.

  127. Vestas says:

    @ Dr Jim :

    As I said people can read the thread and watch your changing position. Or not should they choose.

    Mine has been rock-solid throughout the thread.


  128. dadsarmy says:

    I can’t be assed working out which status thing thread whatever so just read the whole dang thing it’s gone beresk:

    Looks like the SNP were caught by surprise …

  129. Vestas says:

    Also I note you’re 70 Dr Jim & I mean this in no bad way but you’re the poster child of Brit propaganda.

    This may influence your belief on UK democracy and the “Royals”. They aren’t anything good or honest now and haven’t been for 50+ years, if ever.

    BBC was pumping stuff into your brain from day one and for a long time was the only source of info.

    I’d have no more thought of indy as a child in the 1970s as I’d have thought of writing a message to you here 40 years later – “online”. Times change & the parasites claiming to be “Royal” are simply parasites.

    That’s where we should be.

  130. Dr Jim says:

    I can’t believe it Labours James Kelly said something pertinant “Where’s Alister Jack secretary of state for Scotland, he’s been posted missing, should we send out a search party”

    The FM replied (sarcastically smiling) “I’m sure he’ll make an appearance by the end of the day and I’m sure we’ll all benefit from that* she said

  131. Robert Peffers says:

    @Adrian B says: 24 September, 2019 at 1:40 pm:

    ” … When talking to people who voted ‘No’ in 2014 it is Brexit as the shit show that it is in many areas that is moving people away from the UK.”

    Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! I’ve heard it all before right here on Wings but facts most certainly are facts and nothing that you have quoted explain why the SNP party membership continues to increase nor why opinion polls are showing that support for independences is also continuing to increase.

    If more people were turning against the SNP than were turning to them then their membership list would be decreasing not increasing. Just as if more were turning from independence than for it the opinion polls would reflect the facts.

    Thing is neither the SNP membership nor the trend in the opinion polls is falling and that means, no matter what the Jeremias are saying, the SNP and the active supporters of independence must be doing something right for if you were correct both sets of figures would be dropping not rising.

  132. dadsarmy says:

    Seems to me Blackford and the FM quite often do a different take, which perhaps is supposed to represent Blackford being an MP and getting x-party support, and the FM for Holyrood!

    Not something that worries me, it’s just outward politics.

  133. Dr Jim says:

    People like @Robert Peffers and me have been knocking doors for the SNP and been members when there were hardly any of us for over 50 years

    I’ve been spat at, threatened, attacked by armed thugs which I documented on this site around four years ago, had my car scraped, I attend every march I possibly can and will continue to do so, so don’t even begin to tell me what I stand for or attempt to divert from the fact you misread everything I wrote and you’re still digging yourself into the ever deepening stupid hole you dug for yourself

    What the hell age are you, 12? because you act like a silly child

  134. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    manandboy @ 12:35,

    Trust the Graun’s resident uber-BritNat to have some snide sour-grapes comment to make on this: “Grievance monkeys thwarted again”.

  135. RobertTheTruth says:

    Tying himself in knots as usual. Must be time for another tantrum and flounce from the desperately needy spin Dr.

    Why do all the SNP men need to tell everyone their age all the time? Are we supposed to be impressed or feel sorry for them? No one else does it.

    It certainly demonstrates the saying there is no fool like an old fool.

  136. callmedave says:


    Aye that’s true.

    Anyhoo! Today is a popcorn day and tomorrow is another…day. 🙂

  137. Capella says:

    Jeremy Corbyn has already said he wants a GE but not before the A50 extension has been negotiated. He needs the extension in order to negotiate the “deal for jobs”. Then, if elected, he will want a referendum so that the people can decide which option to vote for.

    The Court of Session, through nobile officium, can arrange the A50 extension if Boris Johnston fails to do so.

    I think a caretaker government is more likely in the meantime with a coalition presided over by the father and mother of the house, Ken Clarke and Harriet aarmen.

  138. Adrian B says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    Don’t get to exited. The Polls are sticking at around 50% after three years of Brexit chaos. Wouldn’t you have expected them to be a higher by now?

    There is still a lot to be done and I can see that there is much being done behind the scenes, but I repeat again that the grass roots has to play a bigger part before a date is called. Because at that point the Unionists will throw all the doubt and uncertainty that they can at the Scottish public.

    I havn’t seen SNP membership numbers published to say that they are higher than the 125,000 from some time ago. locally a number of members have fallen away and there are some new members ( mainly pro Indy folk from 2014.

    I do think that we need to be getting our collective pro Indy house in order for any snap election and the upcoming Indyref.

  139. Scot Brand says:

    Now its confirmed the gvt. lied to the queen, how does that leave the DUP and the OO loyals?

    Is that the pitter patter of marching feet on Downing St?

  140. jfngw says:

    If Boris Johnson has broken the law then every MP and MSP that supported the decision (that’s every Tory in Scotland) must also be guilty of ‘Joint Enterprise’ as they effectively egged him on.

  141. fuzzynavel says:

    SNP MPs should call a motion to vote on a section 30 order and vote it through while the rest are on holiday.

  142. chic mcgregor says:

    Well we are halfway through the crunch I predicted the day Johnson became PM. He has tried to suspend parliament but the judiciary has done its job defending parliament and the rule of law. It remains to be seen if the constabulary uphold the law by arresting him when when he and his cronies try to ignore the law.

    But so far, so good.

  143. Awizgonny says:

    Looks to me that Bojo and his pals will get just what they wanted – hard Brexit and a landslide majority. Almost like that’s how it was planned…

  144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    As to the timing of this almost-inevitable coming UKGE, Michael Gove warned recently (if you can believe anything this greasy-pole merchant says) that the Con Party “will collapse” if there is another Brexit postponement.

    (The original was apparently an article in last weekend’s Sunday Times.)

    So a forced extension is just fine by me!

    In our impatience to see things moving forward, it’s easy to overlook that our opponents are having problems too, and far worse ones at that. Not least from today’s SC judgement.

    If anyone still harboured any doubts before today of the truly historic nature of the present UK existential crisis, that should settle the matter most definitively. The only question that remains now is how best we can take advantage of this highly-opportune moment before it passes. (And all things must pass.)

    Another humiliation of the current UKGov by a forced delay is surely a good next step.

  145. dadsarmy says:

    UKSC judgement summary Cherry and co –

    full judgement

    Only had a minute or two looking at the full version, but from page 22

    62. Mrs Miller asks us to …”

    this bit “The equivalent provision in the Claim of Right of 1689, an Act of the Parliament of Scotland”

    is interesting to me, as it leads on to the judgement – and hence reinforces the Claim of Right 1689 as an “Act of Parliament” the court can look at. I just feel taht was Wolffe’s purpose in intervening in the previous Miller, and now in Cherry (+Miller).

    And considering what I posted before about the preambles, the first bits, being way different, I think that leads to establishing a basic incompatibility into future court rulings about where sovereignty lies – people or parliament.

    But hey, WTF do I know!

  146. Dr Jim says:

    I see we’re atracting the *we don’t like the SNP* people again, well that’s tough kids because without us there’d be no Independence and there’d be no Wings over Scotland because there’d be no reason for its existence, we were the ones traipsing around the country when no one else cared or even thought about Independence, and no we’re not looking for greatful on your knees thanks for it but a wee reminder we’re here because we worked for it as did many others, many now dead and will never see it as may well not us either, and yes we do mention our age just to keep in context of how long we’ve believed Independence to be of the importance we place on it, and we do tend to know a thing or two about it

    Now you can troll us us, you can moan about us, you can and do misquote us, but remember you can only do that because we never stopped trying for the right and reason you’re able to

    So try to put us off? bully us? you must be kidding we’ve seen it all and been through it all and we’re still here and will be when the internet idiots move on to the next fad

    So away and bully a celebrity because you won’t win with us

  147. Robert Peffers says:

    @Adrian B says:24 September, 2019 at 1:48 pm:

    ” … Remember people that the Governments key argument in court was that Prorogation wasn’t about Brexit”

    Well, Adrian B, before going further you need to tell us which court you are referring to. The Scottish Court of Session or the English/UK Supreme Court. Now you may not attach over much importance to which court it was but that doesn’t mean it isn’t very important indeed.

    It’s like this, all of a sudden the English/UK Supreme Court was given a very rude awakening for it suddenly found it didn’t have the powers to over rule the Scottish Inner Court of Session. They also got a wee hint of what is coming their way and I quote:-

    The MPs who asked a Scottish court to overturn the prorogation of Parliament took on Boris Johnson using a 300 year old law brought in at the time of William of Orange, dubbed the “Scottish Magna Carta”.

    A band of 76 MPs, Lords and lawyers won an appeal yesterday in Scotland’s Inner Court of Session in Edinburgh, using a case based partly on the Claim of Right Act, passed by the Scottish Parliament in 1689.

    The law enabled the Scots to forfeit James VII as their king and establish their sovereign right to choose a Government.

    It now forms a key part of the Scottish constitution and was used by MPs’ lawyers to argue that prorogation is unconstitutional …

    First thing they learned was that the Inner Court of Session is Scotland’s highest court of appeal and that means the UK/English Supreme Court cannot overrule an Inner Court of Session ruling. Which is why the Supreme court had to uphold it or expose the fact it couldn’t overturn it. Second thing they learned was that the Claim of Right cannot just be ignored and that Scots law is indeed forever independent and lastly they learned that the people of Scotland, being legally sovereign that, ” … The law enabled the Scots to forfeit James VII as their king and establish their sovereign right to choose a Government”, for that read any monarch or government – not just James VII.

    Now do you get it? That law is still a central part of the forever independent law of Scotland and have a wee thought what that means for Scotland’s right to claim independence. Don’t say you weren’t warned about all that for how long have I been telling you just that right here on Wings?

    I have long maintained that all we needed was to give Nicola Sturgeon a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland giving her a mandate to change either or both the monarch and/or the government and we end the United Kingdom and we are out on our own.

    That’s what Ms Cherry QC.MP and co. have just proven in court for us, (though some of the and co. may not yet have realised it). They have just proven that these laws are still active and now we have a new precedent to prove it and not only in the inner court of Session but now also in the English/UK supreme court.

    Now I’m away back to lurking for a while, talk among yourselves.

  148. Tam the Bam. says:


    The Attorney General of UK Gov (Geoffrey Cox) advised the case for prorogation was LAWFUL.

    Another head for the block?

  149. Ex Pat says:


    Without honour in the Conservative party, someones going to have to ‘help them’ – off a cliff. Step forward Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn’s goal is to destroy the Tory party of Margaret Thatcher, says economist Mark Blyth. Corbyn has denied the Tories the opportunity for a general election; he’s made them ‘own’ their Brexit disaster; and the Tories have alread lost 22 MPs, dismissed from their own party.

    SO. So far he’s doing a fine job !

    “The Conservatives have strapped a bomb to their chests called Brexit.” Jeremy Corbyn is like ‘Can I help you ‘tick’ that down?'”

    Does Jeremy Corbyn want to be prime minister? What does Jeremy Corbyn, a life-long anti-racist, internationalist, socialist and back-bencher, in parliament since Margaret Thatcher, want ??

    Mark Blyth was born and raised in Dundee, the socialist capital of the UK. He was, he says, raised by his grandmother on a state pension and was one of the last in the UK to benefit from a free state education through university, before that was destroyed by the Tories, as they did so much to destroy the working class and the power of the unions from the 1979 to today.

    Mark Blyth has, he says, ‘skin in the game’. That, and a vitriolic sense of humour.

    Economist Mark Blyth explains Jeremy Corbyn’s goal, Brexit and Scottish Independence in two minutes. –


    See comment by ‘Ex Pat’ to “The Solidarity of Backstabbing,” 23rd September 2019 – Weegingerdug blog –

  150. Cubby says:

    I see Dr Jim is getting the treatment from the BRITNAT trolls.

    Not to worry – not long now – it’s now the end of days for the UK. The dirty fag end of the British Empire.

  151. Doug says:

    Ran out of popcorn? Try whisky instead.

  152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 15:58:

    […] and that means the UK/English Supreme Court cannot overrule an Inner Court of Session ruling. Which is why the Supreme court had to uphold it or expose the fact it couldn’t overturn it.

    Today’s verdict does no such thing, alas. The SC decided to uphold the prior judgement of the CoS (aka the Scottish Supreme Court, as Joanna Cherry very astutely calls it) because it agreed with the sound reasoning, but it could have judged matters differently had it so determined, and it clearly had the power to do so (as the Martin Kettle outburst mentioned upthread shows, among others).

    If matters were as you stated, and the power existed, it would beg the acute question: why then have we not been assiduously deploying such an effective weapon? For one thing, it would substantiate Breeks’ concerns that the SG/SNP, in the face of a imminently looming deadline, has been dilatory in not pursuing this particular avenue far more proactively, instead of leaving it to various assorted bands of privateers. Not only to make our continuing presence in the Union increasingly uncomfortable to our southern neighbours, but also crucially to raise consciousness of our unique constitutional position among people (ie. voters) at home.

  153. Simon Curran says:

    Tam the Barn@16.03
    Good point. The Government gets legal advice which presumably said what Johnson did was okay, does the Queen get any legal advice or does she simply rubber stamp whatever the PM says?

  154. frogesque says:

    Bojo’s defence and the defending him saying he didn’t lie to Betty and we are not party to that conversation.

    Either he, or his cronies outright lid to Her Maj.

    He didn’t lie and the good Mrs Windsor Sax Coberg was in common parlance ‘in on it’.

    Or Bojo and the top hatted clown, aye you Mr. Mogg are so bloody incompetent you had no conception of the Constitutional shit storm you were brewing.

    Whatever the case, in short, Johnson, you are fucked. Just go!

  155. Tam the Bam. says:

    Simon Curran @ 4-29pm

    I’m led to believe that the Monarch accepts the advice of Her Privy Councel you put it..’simply rubber stamps it.’

    p.s. I absolutely refute your accusation that I am a ‘barn’…lol

  156. Jack Murphy says:

    Scottish Parliament TV.



    Followed by Questions and Answers.

    35 minutes.

  157. Dr Jim says:

    @ Cubby

    I think some of them think that older age means mental incompetence instead of experience and that if you’re older you might be more vulnerable to their nonsense and they don’t realise that sometimes when we withdraw from posting it’s not from their bullying but from their idiocy, this 70 year old is a long long way from being mentally or pyhsically decrepit

    They know they’re losing and they can’t cope with it so they hunt down what they hope are easy victims

    They’re so wrong

  158. Adrian B says:

    @Robert Paffers,

    It was in the Supreme Court case the UK Government made the defence that Prorogation was not about Brext.

    The Supreme Court has essentially backed the Scottish Court of Session in the Scottish Courts original ruling.

  159. galamcennalath says:

    The Tories have been playing this as … anyone who opposes their crash out must be a Remainer.

    Politicians try to reduce choices to be a simple support our plan or you must want the opposite. Brexit, like most things, is a spectrum.

    The crash out so called no-deal is at the absolute extreme.

    Yet, the media plays along with this. Anyone opposing Boris must be a Remainer.

    Nicola and the SNP were willing to compromise on a customs union and single market membership Brexit. That certainly wasn’t Remain. We would have lost much that came with our EU citizenship.

    Although Labour aren’t being very good at articulating it, their approach would seem to be customs union and regulatory compliance.

    Even May’s dead approach was probably destined for a Canada plus trade deal.

    Only a small group of the far right actually want an ideologically driven crash and burn exit. Yet they probably believe they can still succeed even now, and much of the media is behind them.

  160. Patrick Roden says:

    I’m a bit surprised that people think this verdict is bad for Yes.

    If you understand anything about the ‘supremacy’ element within English Nationalism, you will start to seethe backlash that will inevitably happen once they find out that Scots Law was considered superior to English Law.

    The things that will be said down there, will probably do more to sway a few more thousand ‘waverers’ to our side, than a lot of us might believe.

    I’m convinced the next few days will be a significant milestone in our journey to independence.

  161. Dr Jim says:

    Those folk who have watched the FMs reply today in Holyrood may or may not have picked up some of the mutterings from the Tories during questions but if you take a close look again you’ll see Jenny Gilruth begin her question only to halt in her tracks to draw a look of contempt across the chamber at another Tory comment

    I’ve recorded the sound track and am attempting to isolate the comment, I’ll post it if I’m successful but there were a few of these mutterings going on and I think serving to solidify that the Tories even at Holyrood might *look* like they’re a little contrite today but are of the same opinion as their Westminster colleagues

    Adam Tomkins wiz jist pure ragin by the way

  162. callmedave says:

    Have you noticed on BBC tv that ‘the highest court in the country / land’ is now ‘the highest court in the UK’… with the exception of the Farrage Balloon who is still using it a minute ago. 🙂

    He acknowledges that an extension to Brexit is very likely.

  163. North chiel says:

    Within the constitutional context of the SC ruling, I believe that it would have been “ very difficult” for this “ Supreme” Court not to agree with the unanimous decision of the COS in Edinburgh . Not agreeing would have surely brought the “ Treaty of Union “ centre stage into the legal ( if not political) arena. I also interpret this ruling as a “ clear signal” from the “ British” legal establishment that the “ precious precious union “ is in imminent danger and although stressing this was a legal not political judgement the political connotations are within this legal context. Whether the “ British” political establishment now “ get the message “ ( or not) remains to be seen . I cannot see a GE before 31/10 and cannot see how a totally discredited Boris Johnson can possibly Lead the “ Conservative & Unionist” Party into the forthcoming GE . The opposition ( albeit somewhat split on how to resolve Brexit) would surely attack Johnson relentlessly in the forthcoming campaign. ( I realise he has a “ brass neck” but surely he must not continue as leader going into an election campaign?) . It would appear that once an extension to Jan 31st is “ granted” thereafter either a GE or 2nd EU referendum must be held . The “ precious precious union “ is coming center stage and the easiest and most convenient way to solve the Britnat establishment dilemma is either ( 1) no Brexit ( although the English nationalists could demand independence thereafter?) or ( 2) a very soft Brexit ( to draw the “ sting “ from the SNP although our FM has a mandate for Scotland to remain in the EU. If ( 2) then over to you FM . )It would be interesting to see what our FM would say about a 2nd referendum in the context of a Scottish “ veto” perhaps?? Of course a “ hard Brexit” still remains a possibility, however, the Britnat establishment know that this would very probably lead to Independence for Scotland and possible “ ructions “ in Northern Ireland.
    As I say , I believe that the “ signal” from the legal establishment is now clear . Will the political establishment “ get the message”?

  164. manandboy says:

    Can anyone in their right mind say that England is now a normal, healthy, robust Democracy? Or likely to become one any time in the foreseeable future?

    British Nationalism, with all its baggage from the Empire and still in the grip of longstanding Colonialist habits, such as suppression, brainwashing and exploitation, is staring into the abyss of a future in which England will have to stand on its own two feet for the first time in over three centuries.

    For all that time, England’s upper class has lived on benefits from the Colonial Welfare State. Well, Austerity will be coming to them soon. Oh the irony!

    Wake up, Scotland, or you’ll miss the bus to Independence.

  165. Colin Alexander says:

    Was the prorogation case also taken on with one eye looking forward in expectation of Holyrood being prorogued to prevent Indyref2 legislation?

    Hence the arguments about Claim of Right and prorogation to prevent democracy.

  166. Dr Jim says:

    STVs Bernard Ponsonby says he thinks this judgement will hand Bris Johnson the massive opportunity to claim he’s doing the will of the sovereign people thereby playing the parliament against the people

    But I believe Bernard, smart though he is, is incorrect as the people of England are indeed not sovereign as the Monarchy ceded that sovereignty to the parliament that represents the people by way of elected members

    However in Scotland the people are sovereign and the parliament must obey the will of the people by instruction according to law

    Very shortly this may be the law that breaks the English camel’s back

    (I couldn’t help that, sorry)

  167. Famous15 says:

    I listened to Jeremy Corbyn’s conference speech and agreed with much ,but not all,of what he said.But thought that the only chance of a fraction of it being implemented would be via the SNP in an independent Scotland

  168. callmedave says:

    Lord Young ‘Tory’ (quit the tory party a wee while back)
    Calling for more humility and less bravado

    Jacob Rees Mogg Leader of the House should go!

    Allow the 21 tories currently in limbo to return

    Boris to stop saying we’ll leave the EU on 31st Oct.

  169. Sandy says:

    Message to her maj re Boris.

    Reckon he ought to remain in his homeland. I believe he doesn’t need to apply for asylum.

  170. Could Boris appeal the verdict to the European Court of Justice.

  171. Ahundredthidiot says:

    52% of Thomas Cook travellers are going to be really pissed off.


  172. Gary says:

    UPDATE – As per Corbyn’s FULL speech, or at least the part shown on BBC’s 6pm news, he is advocating for an election AFTER ‘no deal’ is taken off the table.

    I agree, it did seem a bit of a change but it appears that perhaps the news programmes were up to their old tricks of ‘over editing’ quotes.

    Everything has changed and yet nothing has changed at all…

  173. admiral says:

    Did I just mishear? Did Laura K just call the MPs who won today’s SC judgement “The Rebel Alliance”?

  174. Roland Smith says:

    The SNP have certainly said they would not vote for an election until no deal date is passed.

    Have not seen any party leader stating they want an election before 31st October. Only date I have heard mentioned is in December. Court judgement excellent we should follow same route if section 30 denied.

  175. callmedave says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    According to ‘experts’ on big auntie tv this morning they say NO!

  176. Terry callachan says:

    Westminster politicians cannot agree a way forward on brexit
    but there is one thing that they do agree on
    and that is doing everything they possibly can to prevent Scottish independence

    I was surprised by the Supreme Court decision
    But does it affect Scotland becoming independent ?
    No I don’t think so.
    The battle lines have not changed
    Brexiters are still brexiters
    Remainers are still remainers
    Unionists are still unionists

    Previously existing Scottish independence support has been bolstered by those who moved from NO to YES to avoid England’s wish for brexit , as long as brexit goes ahead the majority created by that NO to YES movement will hold.

  177. Effijy says:

    Bojo clowning in NY just suggested the UK can get a great trade deal with Canada?

    Now call me simple but didn’t Canada just spend 7 years brokering a trade deal with
    The 28 Countries that make the EU.

    So would Canada give better rates to Bojo and Bonkers Britain than the whole of the EU.

    Never in a million years!

    Trump and the USA ready with the pen to screw the UK with the worst trade deal in modern history.

    Get Scotland out of Westminster’s reaches ASAP!

  178. Lenny Hartley says:

    Scott Finlayson , no they cant appeal to the EU as it does not come under EU legislation, the UK Constitution is for the UK courts only.

  179. Ross says:

    Why dont the snp make a deal to back brexit in exchange for an indie ref. Surely it gives indep more chance of success?

  180. Willie says:

    And meanwhile in the shadow of the Supreme Court decision one of Britain’s oldest companies the one hundred and seventy eight year old Thomas Cook travel company goes down the pan leaving around 150,000 folks stranded oversees whilst around 22,000 in the UK lose their jobs.

    Following on from the collapse of Britain’s second biggest engineering construction group Carillion only some eighteen months ago, we’re not getting many Great British success stories.

    That the collapse of Thomas Cook hardly rates a mention time I think for a few more rousing renditions of Rule Britannia and Land of Hope and Glory aboard the good ship Britannia as it runs aground on the rocks off Europe.

  181. HYUFD says:

    Thomas Cook collapsed as its model was no longer viable in the digital age when people book their own holidays, it would have been the same story whichever country it was based in

  182. Dr Jim says:

    BBC Scotland 6:30pm

    Yeah yeah Boris bad, but but in Scotland murders are up, eh obesity is up, eh poor mental health is up, eh shops are closing, Donald Trump’s getting a new golf course

    Oh aye and Boris Johnson will be back tomorrow

    The end

    On another note, it’s hardly surprising that Laura Kuenssberg needs a permanent bodyguard the way she twists words and lies to the public, she just incites the lunatics out there, of course maybe it’s deliberate attention seeking, but stupidly dangerous nevertheless

  183. HYUFD says:

    Manandboy Even England on its own would be the 7th largest economy in the world, Scotland would barely be in the top 50

  184. Famous15 says:

    HYFUD you are in a closed loop with your alter ego. The scientific name for this behaviour is “loopy”

  185. callmedave says:

    Cosy special politics show now on BBC tv live news with our own Andrew Neil in the chair. Seems Gina Miller Case is big news but not so much the Scottish case (A bit like the Scottish play).

    But too early to condemn out of hand yet.

    Andrew Neil has already had too much to say and interrupts every 20 sec or so. He’s having a rant at why Johnston isn’t getting put to the sword immediately rather than wait until the Brexit affair has run it’s course and No Deal quashed!

    Some residents from Stoke-on-Trent getting a chance to show us all how dim they are ‘ignoring the court ruling is the way forward’. Probably want hanging restored too.

  186. HYUFD says:

    Robert Peffers Without a manifesto commitment to UDI the SNP have no mandate for it from Scottish voters 2015 some SNP voters were voting for more weight for Scotland at Westminster not independence and voting for Sturgeon to be First Minister is no vote for UDI either

  187. Ahundredthidiot says:

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch….

    The massacre of Glencoe is being written out of history……according the Glencoe Visitor Centre… nothing more than a glorified cafe with no mention of the areas history other than a wall note in the ‘shop’

    Fucking disgrace.

  188. callmedave says:

    Stop telling us what we already know!
    There is no point.

    Independence is a bit like being pregnant you either are or you are not. Were not independent and that’s normal so we want to be independent don’t worry about Scotland we’ll be fine.

    Be a good chap and cease.

  189. David says:

    I thought Boris would win I thought they would say it was political .
    Joanna Cherry thought it would be a majority not unanimous which is what they got .And the Attorney General gave the Government advice it was legal advice now leaked .
    Amber Rudd says she got a text Parliament being prorogued told legal advice to follow did not get it .
    Labour SNP etc voted against an election did not trust Boris Ian Blackford says if no confidence passed we would need to appoint an administrator

  190. Ahundredthidiot says:

    I would encourage negative reviews on tripadvisor for Glencoe visitor centre.

    Still ragin about it!

  191. Dr Jim says:

    Pants on fire kid

    Desperation with the invention of Tory facts eh, it’s no wonder people don’t trust the Tories

    Oh and given that people change their ways over booking holidays which makes Thomas Cook unviable it surely must follow that people not voting for Tory governments in Scotland makes them unviable

    As to which country holds which places on the economic league table England on its own would rank around 12th to 14th place when an Independent Scotland returns its borders to their rightful place and takes back its oil, according to Jim Rogers world leading economist and Bloomberg commentator

    In 2017-18 Scotland recieved its 8.5% share of UK oil which amounted to £1.1 billion now shall we ask any folk who can’t even count very well what England’s percentage *share* was and that’s not including the south North sea beyond where the maritime border was moved by Tony Blair to encompass those oil fields because the UK government refuse to release those figures of *English* oil, of course today it’ll be worth nothing until we’re told it is

    Tories are such legally Proven in the supreme court liars now

  192. callmedave says:

    No Scottish faces on Andrew Neil
    Gina Miller Case only & How dare the ‘rebel alliance’ not give Boris the boot immediately. 🙂

    A Lib/Dem & a Labour & a Brexit no SNP or Tory. 🙂

  193. Ken500 says:

    How many firms will go bust on Brexit. Quite a lot. Quite a lot. The Tory mass unemployment.
    Thatcher deja vu. The economy only improved after Thatcher with closer ties to the EU. Tories at it again creating higher unemployment. Corbyn joining in. The Westminster imbecile unionists. They could not make a bigger mess. An absolute shambles

  194. Ken500 says:

    A. Neil is s dunce.

  195. Dr Jim says:

    Tonight’s internet is flooded with lying Tories employing whataboutery as justification for being proven liars

    What a day to be alive

  196. HYUFD says:

    Dr Jim North Sea oil boundaries would be a matter of dispute post a hypothetical independent Scotland but even being 12th or 14th largest economy in the world would see England still comfortably in the G20, a club Scotland would have to leave

  197. Golfnut says:

    @ Lenny Hartley

    I believe the SP denied any right to appeal anyway.

    @ Hyufd

    Scotland is the worlds 9th richest country, population to assets. Of course that’s the UK gov figures which allocates only 8.4% of the oil production to Scotland. England’s not in the top ten even with 90% of the oil.

  198. The Tanner Rocket says:

    Surprising that Al Jazeera (via Alasdair Soussi) again name check only Paul Sweeney in talking about the case. No relation/connection clearly.

  199. Breeks says:

    I need to sleep on it, but I might have mixed emotions about the judgement.

    To be brief, I think Gina Miller won her appeal on the back of the Joanna Cherry’s successful Court of Session judgement, and the reason the Court of Session found Johnson’s prorogation unlawful, while the English High Court ruled the matter non-justiciable, was directly due to the principle whereby the people of Scotland are sovereign, whereas the people of England are subjects.

    In short, a Scottish Government serves the sovereignty of the ordinary people, whereas a UK Government cites Parliamentary Sovereignty over the people. Today’s Supreme Court’s ruling has its roots in Scotland and Scottish legal doctrine, definitely not English Law. having declared the issue non-justiciable.

    Why do I have mixed emotions? Well, I think a chapter of ‘unwritten’ UK Constitution has just been written, and has been written to codify a Scottish based doctrine into the UK Constitution. That’s a feather in the cap for Scots Law and the Court of Session, and one in the eye for the English Law and the High Court. However, throughout the entire media coverage, I haven’t seen any bare mention of Scotland’s own distinct Constitution, only banal reference to a UK Constitution which doesn’t properly exist.

    In short, a Scottish doctrine has been incorporated into a ‘developing’ UK Constitution, but Scotland itself is being short changed of the credit for it. The Supreme Court victory is being codified as a victory for the “sovereignty of Parliament”, but that’s not quite right. The essential truth of the matter is that it was the principle of Scotland’s popular sovereignty, that is sovereignty of the people, which delivered the primary judgement under Scots Law, which thereafter snowballed into a constitutional Test Case which the Supreme Court could not reasonably adjudicate against.

    So it’s the same old story… a Scottish doctrine enhances and improves the UK, but there isn’t a modicum of respect or appreciation for our Nation’s contribution. If it’s a good idea, it’s “their” idea. To hell with any regard or grace for Scotland.

    So congratulations are very much in order for Joanna Cherry and the Court of Session. I hope both are ‘fortified’ and now willing to contemplate the Constitutional “main event”, and the imminent attempt of colonial subjugation of Scotland’s sovereign will to stay in Europe.

  200. Gfaetheblock says:


    You got a link to the data on that? The 9th richest point.


  201. dadsarmy says:

    Bearing in mind that the old Scottish Parliament was dissolved by Royal Proclamation on 28th April 1707 (Queen Anne), with the connivance of the Commisioners who’d largely been appointed by Anne due to the treachery of Hamilton, including the infamous Queensberry, hailed in April 1707 as a hero in England by cheering crowds, strangely enough from Barnet to London, with the adjourned parliament not having reconvened as planned in April largely due to bribery and threats (and where in theory the Act of Union with England could have been repealed), then if a similar ruling were to occur on that dissolution as on Johnson’s prorogation, the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament in 1707 would be null and void, and since in 1999 it was reconvened symbolically, that would indeed be a reconvening in law as well; meaning that those nutters who say that Holyrood should repeal the Act of Union with England – aren’t nutters at all.

    Makes you think.

  202. Robert Louis says:

    Joanna Cherry is a legend.

  203. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi HYUFD at 7:23 pm.

    You opined,
    “Robert Peffers Without a manifesto commitment to UDI the SNP have no mandate for it…”

    UDI is not a possibility.
    Why not?
    Because the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (which includes the province of Northern Ireland and the country known as Wales) are in a voluntary union, defined by the Articles Of Union 1707.

    It is an internationally recognised treaty. Either party can withdraw from it. All it needs is a majority of sovereign Scots to indicate (by GE, HE or referendum) that they want Scotland to revert to its independent status and the UK is ended.

    On the other hand, all it needs is a majority of English voters to indicate (by GE or referendum) that they want England to revert to its independent status and the UK is ended.

    UDI is only an option where a part/region of a state wishes to declare its independence from that state, of which it is a part/region.

    Scotland’s situation is not the latter.

    You’ve skipped past ALL the comments on WOS pointing this out over the past year or three, iye?

  204. RM says:

    It doesn’t really matter how rich Scotland is, when we’re independent we couldn’t be richer, Scots people are a lot more educated than they were in 1707 and have the right to vote aye back then as Robert Burns says Such a Parcel o Rouges in a Nation and there’s still quite a few still here.

  205. Lenny Hartley says:

    Breeks on TV News channel about two this afternoon, there was a timeline of how we got to today, according to that time line the Prorogue was announced, Gina Miller launched law suit, it failed, she appealed to Supreme Court and she won. There was no mention of Cherry or the Scots Supreme Court as Cherry called it today.

  206. Patrick Roden says:

    Hy Fud, I can almost hear ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ playing in your head as you batter away on your keyboard typing about how great England is compared to Scotland.

    I’m sure you must advocate ‘Independence for England’ what with it being such a powerful nation, and Scotland being such a financial burden etc…

    Unless you are lying?

  207. Breeks says:

    … and as for Jeremy Corbyn, I just can’t take him seriously. Whenever he gets angry or excited, his emphasis on words and general intonation seems to be all over the place, and I find it very distracting.

    It’s like a nerd trying to be assertive when it’s just a wholly unnatural occurrence.

    He’s also like a nerd trying to be decisive, when that too seems equally unnatural.

    I just don’t see the appeal of Corbyn at all. A human enigma I have no appetite to unravel.

  208. Liz g says:

    Anybody think that Adam (it’s the Law) Tomkins question today in Holyrood was really weird?
    It was a statement of the obvious with no real point to agree or disagree with!!!
    Looked like he was lining up a second question but there was no follow up!!!
    Mibbi he’s a point to make at FMQs in the morning?

  209. callmedave says:

    Land of Dopes and Tories! Yeah that sounds a bit better. 🙂

  210. HYUFD says:

    Golfnut The top 10 nations by gdp per capita are 1 Luxembourg, 2 Switzerland, 3 Norway, 4 Ireland, 5 Iceland, 6 Qatar, 7 Singapore, 8 USA, 9 Denmark, 10 Australia. Australia has a gdp per capita of $56,352 according to the IMF, Scotland has a gdp per capita of $43,740 including North Sea oil and gas revenues so not sure about that

  211. Dr Jim says:

    For God sake the resident Tory’s now arguing that international boundaries according to law would be in dispute even after the hammering the Supreme court just handed his lying party, give it up son your lot don’t do well with the law

    See that’s what really bothers me about these Tory Brexiters they’ve proved to be liars and they refuse to accept the truth and what’s worse is the punters who voted for Johnson’s lies over Brexit still don’t believe they were lied to even after their hero Boris who swears his allegiance to his Monarch lies to her and these idiots think *oh no way he lied to us we’d know* Brexit’s definitely kosher

    The problem with these types is they don’t really care about the Brexit part they just want to win the argument and they don’t care what happens as long as they think they’ve won something

    If we supplied them with a puzzle box with a banana in it they’d break the box to get the banana and call that reasonable even if it was a rotten banana

    They’re like screaming angry chimps

  212. HYUFD says:

    Patrick Roden No, I think we are better together and always have but of course you have to be prepared for any eventuality

  213. Dr Jim says:

    Liz g

    Tomkins was attempting the veiled accusatory stance, one of the last vestiges of defence for the buffooneraty when confronted with defeat

    You’ll remember it from school shouted usually from some distance away *aye right, see yoo at 4* accompanied by a bad face

  214. Breeks says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    24 September, 2019 at 8:26 pm
    Breeks on TV News channel about two this afternoon, there was a timeline of how we got to today, according to that time line the Prorogue was announced, Gina Miller launched law suit, it failed, she appealed to Supreme Court and she won. There was no mention of Cherry or the Scots Supreme Court as Cherry called it today.

    That was broadly my experience too.

    But if you do take Joanna Cherry and the Court of Session out of the equation, then you are left scratching your head why the Supreme Court would overturn a High Court judgement that a matter was non-justiciable, and then proceed to deliver judgement on the case, not merely the appeal.

    The only reason Gina Miller won her appeal was because not winning it would have been a glaringly inconsistent with the all conquering principles driven home by the Scottish Court of Session.

  215. Terry callachan says:

    It is worth remembering that the High Court of england and wales decided that what B Johnston and his government were doing was okay they said it was not a question of law it was all just politics.
    The Supreme Court said the exact opposite.
    The Supreme Court was unanimous 11-0

    How come the High Court of England and Wales was unanimous too 3-0 ?
    it’s not as if the High Court of england and wales judges were lowly judges
    if there is such a thing ,
    they were
    Lord Burnett of Maldon lord Chief Justice of England and Wales
    Terence Etherton Master of the Rolls
    Dame Victoria sharp president of the queens bench

    Something more than legal questions was answered here with this debacle

    Yes we all know of the red lines that divide our politicians

    I suggest there are similar red lines that divide our law Lords

  216. dadsarmy says:

    11 top UK Judges unanimously ruled that that the advice your party leader – Boris Johnson – gave the Queen to prorogue Parliament – was UNLAWFUL.

    Doesn’t that make you hang your head in shame?

  217. Ahundredthidiot says:


    When shame is all you have ever known it is normalised.

    The FUD will have no idea what you are talking about.

  218. galamcennalath says:

    In recent decades the UK only had one aspect which was of value to Scotland, only one thing going for it, and that was full membership of the EU and the bounty of benefits that brought.

    Without that, there’s is absolutely no point in maintaining the UK Union. Blunt, but it offers nothing, does it?

    If anything, the Union has moved from offering nothing, to being a clear and present threat!

    Corbyn speaks of better times. England doesn’t want his offer, it prefers the beguiling simplicity of far right sound bites!

    It’s time ….. surely?

  219. Dan says:

    Hey HYUFD. If Scotland is supposedly so pish poor in the various metrics you continually post on here, then that is a damning indictment that highlights over 300 years in a union with policy dominated by our larger southern neighbour has not been beneficial for Scotland.
    Scotland’s diverse resources to population figures are very healthy when compared to many other successful nations so kinda fair to assume we’d manage fine.

    If you believe sea boundaries might be disputed. How about a wee counter dispute that demands reparations for Scotland’s lost revenues. You ken, for something along the lines of 300 years in a supposed equal union, with Westminster policies that facilitated England’s population to increase at a faster rate than Scotland’s, with all the economic impact that gave and advantaged England with over hunners of years.

  220. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Shame is an emotion that only those outside the ‘SE of England bubble’ are equipped to feel.

    In Scotland, it sometimes manifests itself as “the Scottish cringe”.

    It’s coming soon, for a’ thah…

  221. Dr Jim says:

    News coming out from 10 Downing street that they’ve already begun to campaign against the Supreme court judges personally

    Read all about it in tomorrows Daily Mail just like the last time they called the judges names, including pictures on the front pages no doubt

    Are they really going to dare to do this again, it’s incredibly stupidly populist and dangerous crowd incitement

  222. Terry callachan says:

    I’ve heard some people say this all proves that the Scottish court is superior to the English court
    but that’s not true
    both courts are equally able

    It’s a matter of reaching the correct conclusion, the right decision is always there ,we just have to rely on the court finding it

  223. HYUFD says:

    dadsarmy Not shame no, however I think we are moving to hearings in Parliament for Supreme Court Justices nominated by the Lord Chancellor much as the US Congress has hearings for US Supreme Court Justices nominated by the US President

  224. Cubby says:

    The HYFUD pitches up on Wings every so often but particularly when the Tories have soiled their pants big time.

    The GOOD thing about HYFUD is that he is honest about who he is – a Tory with a colonial mindset who thinks England owns Scotland. No phoney independence supporter is the FUD. Proud to be an old style colonial Tory.

    The BAD thing about the FUD is that he just repeats the same lies and misrepresentation of facts each time he does us the honour (in his mind) of posting his words of wisdom.

    The UGLY thing for the FUD is that his Empire has gone and the UK and TORY party will soon be following the BRITISH EMPIRE in to the history books.

  225. Willie says:

    Who he this HYUFD that blogs Thomas Cook was no longer viable in a digital age and would have collapsed in any country.

    So that’s it folks a £9 billion turnover company, 150,000 stranded Brits, and 22,000 jobs down the pan.

    A rip roaring British success story. Just like Carillon or BHS or British Steel.

    Cue the music …..rule Britannia , Britannia rule the ….

  226. Terry callachan says:

    Glencoe visitor centre can be changed

    What we don’t want is negative reviews that will reduce visitor numbers

  227. @Ahundredthidiot,

    yer no wrong mate,

    the unionist establishment (Historians,graverobbers,professors,BBC,STV,hacks,NTS,Historic Scotland etc) are rewriting Scottish history bit by bit,

    it`s all Romans,Vikings,Normans and Angles and anything we done is shi@e.

    “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

    ? George Orwell

  228. Dr Jim says:

    Just like the Measles the internet fills up with folk like our resident Tory spreading disease

    News for you kid we listened to the truth and got our children vaccinated against that by around 96% so we’re immune, just like we’re immune to your lot as well

    The Scottish court told you and your own Supreme court has confirmed, you’re all liars and it’s legal and cannot be disputed in any other court, you’ve gone as far as you can go, now nothing any Tory can say will rescue you, give it up, you don’t even have to apologise because we don’t care, just leave the pitch gracefully and take your cricket ball with you, now there’s a good fellow

    Dead Parrots

  229. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Benn bill received Royal Assent as is therefore law.

    An extension HAS to be requested from the EU if no deal is approved by Parliament before the 19th of October.”

    Oh don’t be stupid. There’d be no government to do it, and the incoming government could not be bound by anything done by the previous government. It’d be a waste of everyone’s time.

  230. dadsarmy says:

    I suspect Cummings will be sacked and BoJo will blame it all on him. Meanwhile the puppetmaster will wear a mask and continue as before.

    Dominique, nique, nique, over the land he plods, err, etc.

  231. Terry callachan says:

    Some people are saying

    The Conservative Party will never vote for a GE because their MP,s fear losing their seats
    J Corbyn will call for a GE but without some conservatives and DUP he won’t get enough votes

    Another factor being that Kinnock,s plan to request another brexit extension would end if a GE is announced

    So brexit is likely to proceed

    Others are saying that enough supporters for a GE will materialise

    We will find out soon enough

  232. Colin Alexander says:

    Dadsarmy @8.18pm

    I like your thinking. Interesting.


    Was the dissolving of the Scottish Parliament in 1707 by Royal Proclamation stymieing of the Scottish Parliament by the Crown and is it justiciable after all these years?

    We know Claim of Right is still law. That’s established legal fact. We have the Bojo case law to rely on too.

    Crowdfunded legal case?

  233. HYUFD says:

    Willie Or RBS or HBOS I suppose

  234. Golfnut says:

    @ Hyufd.

    GDP wasn’t mentioned, it is value of assets against population. The point you so clearly missed is that even when Scotland’s asset value is underestimated i.e. oil, that Scotland sits at ninth in the world rankings.

  235. HYUFD says:

    Cubby Not when the latest Scottish poll still has 51% of Scots backing staying in the UK and not when the Tories lead in every current poll

  236. dadsarmy says:

    Ah well now, if the Court of Session is being brushed under the carpet and it’s a total Miller success with whatsername not even mentioned, the media will find it difficult airbrushing the CoS out of existence if Cherry and Co’s case in the CoS for the use of nobile officium is needed, and succeeds – if there is no government to ask to extend the Brexit date and it’s done by the Clerk of Court instead of BoJo. It’s a totally unique power of the CoS.

  237. Cubby says:

    The liar Johnson likes to say the UK is the world’s most successful Union.

    Is this another of his lies?

    Not if you are England it’s not. Great success for England ripping off Scotland for 312 years.

    For Scotland it’s a bloody great big lie.

    The UK is coming to an end and won’t be missed by future generations of Scots. They will ask why did our ancestors put up with it for so long.

    Future generations of English will have to learn to live off their own efforts and resources.

  238. Hamish100 says:

    Rees-mogg “your majestie …prorogi… inifituim..”

    The Queenie ” bugger off you can only advise me something that is lawful.” How’s david cameron such a nice man..

  239. callmedave says:

    Had a sudden thought this afternoon about Lady Hale…wearing a donkey jacket and came up with… Aye him. Crazy!

    Cant get it out of my head now… 🙂 Apology to her.

    That Hilary Benn amd: thing came up on BBC news about an hour ago.

    All bills that were prorogued are now live again and this one apparently did get Royal consent maybe just before or after prorogation. Some head scratching going on.

    Lawyers not sure of its status and may be a factor even yet?

    Anyhoo! Boris flying back in the night to face the music in HoC

    Must get more salt and toffee popcorn in for WM Parliament channel watch.

  240. dadsarmy says:

    @Colin Alexander
    It seriously was stymieing. But also the Union due to start on May the 1st couldn’t go ahead if the Scottish Parliament wasn’t dissolved, so it had to be done for that reason too. I think it was done in a bot of a panic, but can’t find the reference (maybe elctricscotland or undiscoveredscotland).

    So basically speaking, if the dissolution was somehow ruled to be null and void, then the Union starting on 1st May 1707, never happened anyway.

  241. David says:

    Dr Jim at 714 pm no matter what your politics are that comment about Laura Kuensburg needing a bodyguard is an absolute disgrace .How will you feel if something happens to her .And stu you really need to think do you want comments on your site like that and politics has been on BBC all day

  242. Grey Gull says:

    Breeks @8.16

    Think you may be right. Part of me wanted there to be a distinct difference between Scots and English law for the media to start talking about. Looks like they’ll just swallow us up…as per usual.

  243. dadsarmy says:

    Google it, it happened in 2017 – Labour conference.

  244. Phronesis says:

    Lady Justice has tipped the scales in favour of Cherry, Maugham, Miller and democracy vs the Hustler and calamity.

    ‘This one-off entails Johnson, a British leader with a complicated relationship with the truth, being found by his country’s Supreme Court to have misled the Queen, Parliament, and the population, in an attempt to hustle his Brexit strategy through without proper scrutiny from the House of Commons’

    ‘Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences’
    Robert Louis Stevenson

    Johnson and his fellow diners can feast in isolation on a banquet of their consequences- lies, manipulation, hypocrisy, deceit, mendacity and exploitation. Every last morsel will burn and scrape on its way down.
    Scotland will nourish itself on a menu of human rights, ethical core standards, reciprocity, ecological and environmental justice. Much healthier and easier on the digestion.

  245. John H. says:

    Alistair Carmichael MP on twitter-

    “The court’s unanimous ruling is devastating to the Prime Minister.It shows that he acted unlawfully and misled the nation.
    By any measure Boris Johnson is not fit to be PM. He should resign now.”

  246. Ken500 says:

    Carmichael lied and acted illegally and got away with it, He should resigned. Lying hypocrite. He is not fit for office. He broke the Representation of the People’s Act.

    Goodness the total Tory mess. The Tory Royals who cause health problems for the citizens. Not impartial.

  247. Robert Peffers says:

    @Adrian B says: 24 September, 2019 at 3:33 pm:

    ” … on’t get to exited.”

    Bollox! I started supporting the SNP and Scottish independence over 70 years ago. I stopped getting excited about political matters around the early 1960’s

    ” … The Polls are sticking at around 50% after three years of Brexit chaos. Wouldn’t you have expected them to be a higher by now?”

    Well no I would not – but then I really do think about these things and a think about them logically. Like for example that the easier votes to gain are the first ones and as you get closer to breaking even they get harder to come by.

    Then there is the effect of the opposition waking up to the fact that independence is gaining ground and the unionists, that is the entire Westminster Establishment including the so called intelligence services and the so called security services, begin to increase their infiltration of anything remotely supporting independence.

    Next up comes the Westminster funded and controlled media and broadcasters. These were always at it but the general public were far too blind to notice it. Get the picture?

    ” … There is still a lot to be done and I can see that there is much being done behind the scenes, but I repeat again that the grass roots has to play a bigger part before a date is called.”

    Where have you been? I posted links here months ago when Nicola Sturgeon fired the starting pistol and for all the impression I made here on Wings I need not have bothered = are you waiting to read about it in the Scotsman or Daily Express?

    Later I posted links to Nicolas attempts to get things going here on Wings and again I need not have bothered – perhaps because of the Wings factions that are more interested in running down the FM, the SG and the SNP.

    Just the other day I reposted this link and it got as much attention on Wings as did Kelty Hearts getting to second top of the Lowland league with a game in hand:-

    click the first wee tab marked, “Watch”.

    This is not the first of these clips urging folks to mobilise yet here you are claiming the FM/SG/SNP are doing nothing yet Nicola herself has been asking us to get going for months. By the way one of her earlier clips stated catagorically, “There will be an indyref2 – with or without a section 30 Order yet not a day seems to pass but someone here on Wings makes the claim that Nicola is not going to call an indyref2 without, “The Permission”, of Westminster or that indyref2 will never happen because we need Westminster’s permission.

    ” … Because at that point the Unionists will throw all the doubt and uncertainty that they can at the Scottish public.”

    Why would they bother throwing that at the Scottish public when Wingers are doing it for them? There are days when there is more anti-FM/SG/SNP independence bullshit thrown around Wings by people claiming to be indy supporters than in the Scotsman, Daily Mail, Daily Express and Daily Record put together.

    ” … I havn’t seen SNP membership numbers published to say that they are higher than the 125,000 from some time ago. locally a number of members have fallen away and there are some new members ( mainly pro Indy folk from 2014.”

    That’s the way it goes – people leave, people die, others join but the general trend is upwards. Then there is the mischief makers – the latest batch being the outcry about Woman’s rights over the self professed gender issue. Now I’m not blaming the women for getting upset and worried for to them it is a genuine worry but it doesn’t take much thought to realise the issue is being stirred up deliberately by a very few idiots.

    First of all the concept that started it is not what is now being portrayed. There are a very, very few unfortunate people who really have genuine trouble being classed as a particular sex. I had a friend way back in my schooldays that the medical profession could not classify.

    They thus had to leave it to the person to decide. The person took their own life in their late teens.

    Now there isn’t a political party that doesn’t have within it factions and the SNP are no exception. That faction has been, loudly, pushing their hobbyhorse. This is not what the SNP was aiming at being more concerned by such as the poor unfortunate friend from my schooldays and there are very few of them. So when the current problem over the gender issue became troublesome the SNP stopped it being a political issue until a later date.

    Now why do you imagine that issue has not remained on the back burner? I believe, and I may be wrong, it is being kept simmering to damage the independence movement and if you imagine the movement, including Wings, has not long ago been infiltrated then you are a fool.

    ” … I do think that we need to be getting our collective pro Indy house in order for any snap election and the upcoming Indyref.”

    Well then, Adrian B, what do you say to what I have just posted in reply to your comments? All you need do is check back through Wings and you will find I’m not making things up. I’ll tell you another thing to check, It is to checkout those who have either ignore the true things I have either made links to or the logical things I have just told you I have posted.

    When I first came to comment on Wings I got pelters for some things that are now well supported and now being shown as correct and the post I made earlier is a typical example.

    I’ve been thumping the tub about the real power of the Scottish People’s legal sovereignty, the power of the Treaty of Union, The power and legality of the “Declaration of Arbroath”, and the legality of, “The Scottish Claim of Right”. Since my teenage.

    Just a few days ago I posted my opinion that the 11 judges of the Supreme Court had no other option than to uphold the judgement of the Scottish Inner Court of Session for the reason that, first of all, that if they did not it would cause a real constitutional face of between the two Kingdoms of the United Kingdom and that Scotland would win.

    Secondly, as I posted the truth of the matter upthread, the old laws used by the Scottish Law Lords are integral parts of Scots law.

    Now here’s a thing, Ms Cherry is a QC and she sure as hell isn’t daft. Nor is she frightened to have her say. Now am I wrong in thinking that Ms Cherry and the Westminster SNP faction seem to know exactly where they are going with these things?

    Now I’ve read here on Wings the opinion expressed that Ian Blackford’s much repeated claim that, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the European Union against her democratic will”, is no more than just SNP hot air.

    I wonder if those expressing those views are quite as confident today as they were yesterday?

    Oh! And another thing I have posted more than a few times is that when Scottish indep0endence comes it will come suddenly and from a direction few expect it to come from.

    I really hope that I’m right.

  248. Grey Gull says:

    I hope you’re right too, Mr Peffers.

  249. Ken500 says:

    Anyone can google Glencoe and get the proper story. Millions will. Scottish history strong around the world. Friends in high places, worldwide. Scottish invention shaped the modern world. Including the internet, TV, telecommunications. Led on to the internet.

    The Chinese. ‘Scotland the land of discovery and invention’.

  250. Gfaetheblock says:


    Have you got a link to the data you are quoting?

  251. Ken500 says:

    It is the (normal) non voters who decide the outcome of referendum. With a high turnout. They are off the polling radar. The Polls are often wrong in close margins.

  252. Footsoldier says:

    Robert Peffers 10.26pm “…for all the impression I made here on Wings I need not have bothered”.

    May I suggest a less patronising tone to those you disagree with.

  253. Ken500 says:

    The SNP (Gov) will get an S30 from the Courts as soon as it is necessary. Scotland has not been treated equally or fairly by the Westminster unionist Gov. Outvoted 10 to 1. Scotland does not get the Gov for which it has voted or policies the people want. No mandate.

  254. Ken500 says:

    Mr Peffers how are the eyes. Aye.

  255. Cubby says:

    BBC News at Ten

    The Scottish Court of Session Case and Joanna Cherry totally airbrushed out of the coverage of the UK Supreme court case. Gina Miller and the English case given all the air time.

    Also a little history lesson on the English/British constitutional history. All English of course eg Magna Carta.

    All nicely presented by a Scot Britnat Laura Kuensberg and a Welsh Britnat Huw Edwards.

    Looks like the BBC are taking on board the #f..k off Scotland.

  256. Ken500 says:

    Just google the most prosperous countries. They are all small countries. Switzerland, Norway, New Zealand, Saudi, Denmark. Scotland is as wealthy as any of them. Independent. Without Westminster’s (Treasury) interference. Taking resources from Scotland.. Scotland has to pay for all the Westminster appallingly bad policies. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Hinkley Point, HS2. The Oil revenues taken and wasted. Fishing, farming and Oil industry mismanagement. £20Billion Scotland lose which could be better spend. Or saved.

    Westminster corruption and lies. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

  257. Supreme Court referred to ‘Claim of Right’ – making it part of British law

    wonder what ramifications of that is??

  258. Ken500 says:

    Not to worry people in Scotland know Johanna Cherry efforts and achievement. The Supreme Court judgement a double whammy for Johnston. He is not looking so cocky or confident. Johnston on the road out. He will not last till October. The Tories going down to oblivion.

  259. Ken500 says:

    Joanna Cherry on ITV News.

    What a rammy.

  260. Proud Cybernat says:

    The people of Scotland are sovereign. We vote to send a member of Scottish Parliament to act on our behalf and they MUST do our bidding (cause we, the people, are sovereign).

    The people of England are not sovereign. They vote to send a member of UK/England Parliament to make decision for them as the MP sees fit. The MP is sovereign, not the people.

    Hence the impasse with Brexit. The people of England think they are sovereign and that, by a referendum, the expressed their sovereign will. Well they expressed a view. But it is their MPs who are sovereign, not the English people. It is WM that is sovereign, not the English people. WM is sovereign and, as such, it can (as a representative ‘democracy’) decide what is good for the people of England whether they decide in a referendum they want Brexit or not. That’s why the EURef was ‘advisory’. But even if it was a legally-binding referendum, because WM is sovereign (in England), it could say to the people of England “we’re sovereign so we’ll decide what’s good for you.”

    And that is the fundamental problem with Brexit. WM has to catch up with Scottish popular sovereignty; that the PEOPLE are sovereign and NOT parliament. That when the people vote for something in a referendum you damn well enact it.

    England needs a Scottish revolution.

  261. call me dave says:

    Ha! Ha! OOU you are lawfull but I like you! 🙂 BBC joke.

  262. call me dave says:

    Jings! Norman Tebbit calls in outing the judges.

    They should all go to jail tampering with politics.

  263. Dr Jim says:

    @ David 9:14pm

    I think you need to take another swing at what I actually wrote before opening your mouth and spitting out nonsense

  264. Dr Jim says:

    I do hope all the folks in Stirling were watching Tory MP Stephen Kerr on Scotland tonight because that’s the guy who’s supposed to be representing you but defending Boris Johnson to the point of maniacal frenzy

  265. call me dave says:

    Fingers turn North pointing to the inner court suggesting it was a very surprising judgement especially as in England it was straightforward! 🙂

    Christine Jardine on now from a train hurtling downwards to London
    (I suppose)

  266. Craig Murray says:


    You are absolutely right. I went to the Glencoe visitoe centre earlier in the year and was shocked by the same thing. There is a video showing which is OK on the massacre but goes on a lot more about the hill walking and widlife. But not at all what I expected from the Glencoe Visitor Centre.
    If you visit Linlithgow Palace they tell you it was destroyed by fire “accidentally” by Cumberland’s troops in 1746. We need to take back our heritage after Independence.

  267. dakk says:

    Re Johnson’s tenure.

    Not a snowball’s chance in hell Boris will have to resign for this minor procedural infraction.

    If our Tone the war criminal and wannabe papist sailed through his genocidal and religious dalliances then by british standards boris is decent stand up kinda guy.

    I believe Churchill also ordered a couple genocides on brown people too and is a great british hero.

    British values you understand.

  268. mike cassidy says:

    My first thought was

    he’s trolling.

    Then I thought


    He’s just dumb.

    For the delectation of those who wish to see the reaction to Carmichael’s call for Johnson to resign.

  269. John D says:

    What a few days for political observation.

    A young Scandinavian teenager at the UN calling out the Governments for knowingly siding against Science , humanity and the majority of world life forms. She knows.

    Then today in the UK ! It’s true it was a surprise to get an 11-0 judgment .

    The inevitable collapse of the UK brings immense responsibility to those in the Scotland independence support who wish for more than a widespread social disintegration and the hardships that follow as long as Westminster is done, tempting though it is.

    The hope of us that seek self determination for a country representing less than 0.1 % of global population is focused by the reality it causes the end of the planet’s most influential empire in history.

    With mass extinction on our door it requires a certain forward thought to lead a least painful path . Incredible changes are coming. The chance to contribute is also a gift.

    Ps. Might be too late and we are beyond fucked.

  270. HandandShrimp says:


    He has to be trolling. No one is that tone deaf.

  271. dakk says:

    Oh nearly forgot.

    That great british international socialist wee Harry Wilson ethnically cleansed the Chagos Islands whilst PM.

    Cut Boris some slack, he’s a relatively great british good guy for fuck sake.

  272. Dan says:

    @dakk at 11.30pm

    Did you not mean Brutish values like these…

  273. John D says:


    Nothing other than childish provocation.

    I don’t wish to shame you. We can all do so much better. Following a policy of deception can ultimately only hurt all including you. Even if you feel your injuries are worth it .

    What’s the term for supporting a burnt earth policy?

  274. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 11.19
    I did take a look back at what you said after reading his comment????
    I see not a thing wrong with what you said and it looks like fair comment to me. More than that it was a simple observation nae sarcasm or abuse about it!
    I think your being played Dr Jim…
    Don’t rise to it…..

  275. dakk says:


    That’s what I’m talking about.

    And they’re all outraged and bleating about proroguing a few hundred arseholes for a few days and maybe misleading the monarch.

    Says it all really

  276. Dr Jim says:

    @Liz g 12:57am

    The work of the professionally faux offended, they read two words and decide to pick on those to be outraged by, not bothering to read the rest or understand the reasoning context or meaning

    The internet playground is full of it, and them

  277. manandboy says:

    The Attorney General, Robert Buckland QC MP, tweets:

    “As the PM says, we will respect the SC’s judgment, the judicial process and Rule of Law, even though the Gov’t respectfully disagrees with the Court’s decision. The Gov’t will deliver Brexit on 31st Oct, levelling up our education system, investing in the NHS and cutting crime.”

    This is the ultimate fissure. This Tory Government is setting itself against the Rule of Law. Resignations usually follow such statements. But only when the Rule of Law is respected.

    Jessica Simon QC, tweets:

    ” Uh oh…. The Government cannot respectfully disagree with the Supreme Court on the law. When the Supreme Court states the law, that is the law, whatever any of us feel or think about it. That’s how the rule of law works. Buckland has a statutory duty to make that clear.

  278. manandboy says:

    The Brexit Avalanche continues to wreac havoc, now crashing through one of the essential Institutions – The Law.

    England is in real danger of tipping over into a rather obvious Dictatorship.

    No surprises there actually. The Ruling Class in England has always operated on a disguised dictatorial basis. After all, did any of the 60+ colonies of the Empire ever get any say in the matter of their invasion and subsequent occupation.

  279. manandboy says:

    This is what can happen when family arrive home in the early hours. C’est la vie.

  280. manandboy says:

    Dated 20 July 2014

    “The new Solicitor General was censured for breaching the legal profession’s code of conduct three years ago, the government has confirmed.

    Conservative MP Robert Buckland, who is a barrister, was handed the role by David Cameron in last week’s reshuffle.

    The Attorney General’s office said Mr Buckland had committed only a “minor breach” of the rules.

    Labour said it made “a mockery” of the office of Solicitor General and there were “urgent questions to answer”.

    The row follows allegations in the Mail on Sunday newspaper.

    It claimed that in 2008, before Mr Buckland was MP for Swindon South, he had asked another barrister to pass him case notes from an earlier criminal trial which he was not entitled to; and that three years later Mr Buckland faced a tribunal by the ruling body for barristers.

    ‘Not required’
    A spokesman for the Attorney General’s office said: “It is a matter of public record that in May 2011, Robert Buckland was found to have committed a minor breach of the Code of Conduct of the Bar of England and Wales.

    “He was not suspended or fined and continued to practice and sit as a recorder.

    “This finding was removed from the Bar records after two years and therefore Mr Buckland was not required to declare it upon appointment as Solicitor General.”

    But Labour MP Emily Thornberry, the shadow solicitor general, said: “It makes a mockery of that position to have it occupied by someone who has been found guilty of professional misconduct and who also failed to disclose that to the prime minister.”

    So, Robert Buckland QC MP’s judgement was suspect all along. Is he now putting politics above the Law? Certainly looks like it.

  281. manandboy says:

    The Ruling Class is revealing itself to be The Criminal Class. In truth, ’twas ever thus, was it not. They just hid it well and cloaked themselves with a respectability of their own making.
    The stench of their corruption is filling Europe and beyond.

  282. manandboy says:

    Anti-European prejudice seems to have completely overtaken the Government and its propaganda outlets, TV and Press.

    The Ruling Class has lost its sense of balance, and is now unable, either to walk straight, or to stand up straight.
    It has rarely talked straight, so that is not new here, though it is very much part of current difficulties for this Tory Government. I ask you, Boris Johnson, straight?

    England needs to straighten itself out. So also, Scotland, though separately and distinctly, and the sooner the better.

  283. Golfnut says:

    @ Gfaetheblock.

    Go to the ‘ macalabeastie blog site ‘ , lots of good evidence based info on Scotland’s wealth. Be warned, if you are of the to wee, to poor, to stupid persuasion, you won’t like what you find.

  284. manandboy says:

    At this point, I find it extremely difficult to foresee a recovery from its present malaise for England, in the short to medium term.
    It would be pointless therefore, and possibly even an act of sel-harm, for Scotland to hang about somewhat aimlessly in the Union, waiting for things to get better in England.

    The ‘marriage’ known as the Union, is nearing its end. Truth be told it died about three hundred years ago, and has only remained because of the enormous advantages accruing to England. While Scotland has endured a loveless marriage, arguably like no other.

    Divorce. It is time.

  285. manandboy says:

    Good morning, Golfnut.

  286. manandboy says:

    Macalabeastie seems out of Google’s reach.

  287. Ghillie says:

    Robert Peffers @ 10.26 pm


    Thank you for that wonderful post =)

    Pulls threads together nicely and covers many vexatious questions.

    I agree with you totally.

    Mind you, on one point, if Wings WAS NOT being infiltrated it would be a slight to the site =)

    And, I am particularly intrigued by your final comment 🙂

  288. manandboy says:

    Back to sleep.

  289. Dr Jim says:

    Tory supporting Brexit newspapers begin to carry out their threats of public incitement people versus parliament

    Expected but nevertheless disgusting and they know what they’re doing and they still don’t care, and the people won’t even notice it’s not the law it’s not parliament it’s not even the government, it’s the media that wants control, they’re the manipulators


  290. Robert Louis says:

    Craig Murray at 1126pm,

    Totally agree with your and the earlier comment. Too much of Scottish history via these ‘visitor’ centres, is being BRITwashed, to the extent that next year they will likely make the Culloden centre a Kiddies play park thened around how great ‘Britin’ is.

    We have of course had an SNP government for many years now, yet they seem feart to even attempt to correct what is being done. The culture secretary does nothing to defend scotish history and relevant FACTS. We can all see it happening, drip, drip, drip, little by little, with each re-decoration, or re-desigining of such places – which are invariably headed up by a British nationalist from somewhere south of the tweed.

    Yet the biggest irony is that foreign visitors now come actively seeking THAT history, only to find it has been BRITwashed away.

  291. Macart says:

    @ Ghillie

    Sometimes it’s not about using parliamentary or legal process to affect change with other more…. mmm….intransigent parliamentarians or institutions directly. Sometimes it’s about setting precedents. Sometimes… it’s maybe about using those processes against themselves and making a population (or significant demographics) take notice.


  292. Golfnut says:

    @ Manandboy. Gfaetheblock

    Good morning.

    Sorry, my bad. macalbasite WordPress. Absolutely no idea how I managed to make that ‘ macalabeastie ‘.

    Some very good analysis on there, you might be a while. Cup of coffee required. Enjoy.

  293. manandboy says:

    In Westminster politics, lying is practised as if it was breathing. No choice but to do it, otherwise your career in politics will die. All that lovely money for sitting down, and talking occasionally. And lying constantly.
    Tell the truth and it’s all gone.

    Is it any wonder England is in trouble.

  294. manandboy says:

    Just been in to the Macalba site, Golfnut. I shall be following him with interest. Now on my desktop page. Thanks for that.

  295. robin says:

    I think Robert Peffers is just great.
    irritable old bastard of course but almost always with a good analysis backed by good data..keep it up Robert

  296. Sinky says:

    Murdo Frazer article in Scotsman claiming SNP rigging indy ref2 rules. Apparently Holywood discussing today.

    The letters page crammed with Brexiteers hyperventilating over Supreme Court ruling and flat earthers having a go at Greta.

    Also like BBC London downplaying Joanna Cherry QC’s role as lead petitioner in this historic case.

  297. Ken500 says:

    Scottish history is well know worldwide. Documented through word, literature and film. A massive achievement. A 40million disaporia. Braveheart, Outlander, unfortunately Trainspotters.

    Literature, music, philosophy. The first country to have tertiary education (Church). Scotland’s commitment to education and equality is world renowned,

    The Declaration of Arbroath, formed the basic of democracy for many countries. The US founding fathers (Scots). The French Revolution. Liberty, fraternity and freedom.

    The ‘Enlightenment’. Influenced the world. Philosophers. .

    Scotland is one of the most visited country’s in the world (pro rata). Edinburgh one of the most visited Cities. Scotland has some of the best scenery in the world. The West coast and the North. Cruise ships now visit. The US population is 10% of Scottish descent. 230million pop. 23Million?
    Australia, NZ, Canada. Scottish migration shaped the modern world. Invention and discovery.

    A massive Tourist industry.

    A few tourist signs can be changed, many are in Gaelic now. Interesting for tourists. The tourist industry bring in £Billions for Scotland. Chinese students are coming to study. Direct flights (Alex Salmond). Tartan, music invention, education. Scotland is well know worldwide.

  298. McDuff says:

    Robert Peffers
    The thing is I’m still waiting to hear Nicola Sturgeon or indeed anyone else in the SNP when interviewed on television detailing Scotland’s economic viability.
    Many on Wings have taken the trouble to list our great wealth and resources and it always impressive. It’s a vote winner and needs to be advertised. And yes 50 years supporting the SNP but I’m a troll.

  299. Gfaetheblock says:


    I get zero google search results for macalabeastie.

    Do you have a link?

    Is it scit give data that is used?

  300. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Robert Peffers

    Auld Boab, you were on-fire last night, well said.

    I now see, by the way, from whence Ian Blackford and the SNP|’s Westminster MPs get their oft-repeated mantra: “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against her will.”

    Chapeau Joanna Cherry and the Scottish Law Lords – we’ve got the English where we want them, now, it’s all about the timing of when we pull the rug from under them – and that moment is not far away now.

  301. Ottomanboi says:

    It seems stop Brexit Blackford and Sturgeon are quite willing to cooperate with the system and put Corbyn at head of an ‘alternative government’. If only they were so ‘radical’ as regards Scotland.
    What a collection of unionist patsies the SNP has become. Nauseating.

  302. Colin Alexander says:

    Proclamation dissolving the Parliament of Scotland 28 April 17017

  303. Breeks says:

    Slept on it, and still feel the same.

    Gina Miller’s case and successful appeal was the opposite of collateral damage, and inadvertent and unplanned success.

    To reign in an abuse of Executive power, the Supreme Court needed to adopt the Scottish Constitutional doctrine that nobody, neither Prime Minister nor Monarch, was above the law: a doctrine enshrined in the Declaration of Arbroath, and a principle which has no equivalent in English Law, where the Crown and Government are Sovereign above the people.

    Scots Law is just like Scotch Beef; it’s quality and caliber is recognised south of the Border, but it is first repackaged with a Union Jack label….

    It augers well for any formal challenge to Scotland’s declared will to remain in Europe, but through what channel will this Constitutional essential reveal itself?

    Yes, there is a democratic option, but a referendum victory against the pernicious mountain of BritNat propaganda seems an elusive prospect, (I say elusive, not unachievable), and I am further conflicted that we want such a vote to deliver us the whole complete package of a country. Why? We have the country already, Constitutionally intact, geographically intact, (more or less), and legally intact. The inhibition on our Nation is a political truncation confined to a bilateral political Treaty. Let us forego ambition for surgical precision.

    A vote to create a Nation seems overkill beside the will to dispense with and end a toxic and grossly abused asymmetric Treaty long passed it’s sell-by date. Why conflate any referendum with grandiose notions of complexity, when merely tearing up a Treaty delivers the same result?

    We don’t need no highfalutin Independence, just a technical repeal of a shaky political Treaty, and the technical repeal of that Treaty seems a shoe-in after decades of asymmetric abuse and exploitation.

    Come on Joanna.
    Strike 1. Article 50 Revocation is a legally Sovereign prerogative. Tick.
    Strike 2. Nobody, neither PM nor ER is above the Law. Tick.

    Strike 3. The Law says Scotland’s will to remain in Europe is lawful, extant and Sovereign…. Ti….

    To be cont…

  304. Two Etonian/Bullingdon boys gangsters ,Cameron and Johnson,have manipulated and lied to their Queen for political gain,

    it looks like most Tory politicians,members and voters seem to think disrespecting and lying to her majesty is ok if it serves the Tory party,

    no Tory can talk of loyalty to the crown of UK, they have been found out as opportunists and even tractors for political or financial gain.

  305. birnie says:

    Me thinks the Queen wasn”t lied to at all. She knew fine well what was going on. After all, we are told often enough that she has her finger on the pulse, does her red boxes diligently and has seen the back of every Prime Minister since Churchill.

    And she has colluding form from the 2014 referendum.

    On yer bike, Yer Maj!

  306. Colin Alexander says:

    Scottish Parliamentary Minutes
    Tuesday 25 March 1707

    [Lord commissioner’s speech; parliament adjourned]
    Then his grace her majesty’s high commissioner made the following speech:

    My lords and gentlemen,

    The public business of this session being now over, it is full time to put an end to it.

    I am persuaded that we and our posterity will reap the benefit of the union of the two kingdoms, and I doubt not that, as this parliament has had the honour to conclude it, you will in your several stations recommend to the people of this nation a grateful sense of her majesty’s goodness and great care for the welfare of her subjects in bringing this important affair to perfection, and that you will promote a universal desire in this kingdom to become one in hearts and affections as we are inseparably joined in interest with our neighbouring nation.

    My lords and gentlemen,

    I have a very deep sense of the assistance and respect I have met with from you in this session of parliament, and I shall omit no occasion of showing to the utmost of my power the grateful remembrance I have of it.

    Then the lord chancellor, by order of her majesty’s high commissioner, adjourned the parliament to meet at Edinburgh, 22 April next, and declared the same to be adjourned.

    [James Ogilvy, earl of] Seafield, chancellor, in the presence of the lords of parliament


    The proclamation @8.27am said only one parliament allowed.

    Article III of the Articles of Union said:

    ‘That the united Kingdom of Great-Britain be represented by one and the same Parliament, to be stiled the Parliament of Great-Britain’.

    The Lords and Supreme Court became courts of appeal in civil law for Scotland because the Articles did not specifically address this.

    It did not say the Scottish Parliament must be dissolved.

    As Mr Peffers will tell you: the Scottish Parliament had not dissolved itself. It had

    I can see nothing to stop the SNP seeking a mandate for a supreme parliament for Scotland ( prior to) full independence if they win an election.

    They could also seek a mandate to declare independence without the above intermediary step if they gained over 50% of the popular vote.

  307. Sinky says:

    What is the point of a separate BBC Scotland when Call Kaye phone in has 100% English “Experts” who know nothing of the Scottish dimension on Supreme Court ruling

  308. Colin Alexander says:

    Remember the Queen in ’14 and ’19

    Betrayed our constitution.

  309. Marcia says:

    Listening to Michael Gove on Radio 4 this morning I can now understand why he has the label sleekit. They Johnson government are still in denial.

  310. Heart of Galloway says:

    And wait till this wee stinger from oor Joanna, Jo Maugham and Vince hits the ether should the CoS rule in their favour:

    The key passage from the petition:

    “In the event that the Prime Minister fails, delays
    or refuses to sign the letter required of him by the
    European Union (Withdrawal) (No 2) Act 2019
    and in accordance with this court’s order
    for the specific performance of the Prime Minister’s
    statutory duties at clause (ii) of this prayer, to make orders to the following effect in the exercise of this court’s nobile officium

    a) ordaining that a letter in the form set out in the Schedule to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 be drawn up and signed by the Clerk of Court on behalf of the Prime Minister

    (b) ordaining that this letter so signed be sent to the President of the European Council

    (c) issuing a declarator that a letter in this form sent by this court shall substitute for, and shall be for all purposes and effects in law equivalent to, the letter which the Prime Minister was and is under a statutory obligation to sign and send to the President of the European Council.”

    Prepare for fireworks.

  311. Golfnut says:

    @Heart of Galloway.

    Not even a whisper of this yesterday, though I expected( stupid really) that this would at least get a mention. This is the real constitutional crisis. Perhaps the real reason for trying to side line Joanna’s involvement in the SP case.

  312. Peachy Essay says:

    If Boris resigns who ask for an extension?

  313. Golfnut says:

    @ Gfaetheblock.

    Apologies, should have been macalbasite. WordPress. No,I can’t explain how I did that. Manandboy also wandered into the Google void, thankfully he’s posted a link 7:15 am sparing me further embarrassment.

  314. Robert Peffers says:

    @brian watters says: 24 September, 2019 at 1:52 pm:

    ” … Our destiny must be in our own hands , and its clearly time to put all efforts into promoting INDEPENDENCE not saving England from itself.”

    Only problem with that is that it is total bollox. No one in the SNP is attempting to save England from itself.

    Westminster pretends to itself that it is the parliament of England but legally Westminster is not the parliament of England. No one has been elected to a parliament of England since 30 April 1707. Hence no legal parliament of England exists.

    Also Westminster pretends to itself that it is the parliament of Britain and it is going to, “Brexit”, but Westminster is not legally the parliament of Britain for no such parliament has ever existed.

    Legally what Westminster really happens to be is the legal parliament of the United Kingdom so what will be exiting the European Parliament is the United Kingdom and here is the part that the Joanna Cherry led group has just established in the Inner Court of Session in Edinburgh and thus forced upon the, so called, United Kingdom Supreme Court who had no other choice than uphold the Highest Court of Appeal in Scotland’s ruling.

    You see what this all boils down to is the thing that Westminster has studiously sidestepped since 1 May 1707 and that is the fact the United Kingdom is formed by the obviously still live Treaty of Union.

    Which fact is that the United Kingdom is, and always has been, only two kingdoms in an international Treaty of Union and is now, and always has been, a kingdom and not a country. Westminster pretends it is a union of three and a bit countries with the de facto country of England as the masters devolving English rule down to two and a bit other subservient dominion countries but it legally is not.

    What that Inner Scottish Court of Session ruling and the so called United Kingdom Supreme Court acceptance of the Scottish courts decision does is expose that what is about to leave the European Union is the two, (equally sovereign), partnership of the United Kingdom.

    So there is the exposure of your acceptance of the false Westminster/English pretence that the Scottish, (SNP led), government were attempting to save England from itself the truth being that the Scottish Government were attempting to save the United Kingdom from exiting the European Union and as the Kingdom of Scotland is legally an equally sovereign partner in the United Kingdom then the SNP have been trying to save themselves for until independence happens both kingdoms sink or swim together.

    So there you go, I have just shown that you are doing the unionists job for them by taking the Westminster/English stand on the matter but now you know just how important the Scottish Court’s decision really is. Though to go by the MSM and, in particular, the broadcasters you would never think so.

    Truth will out and the courts decisions expose the truth that the United Kingdom is a political union of two kingdoms and the Treaty of Union and the Scottish Claim of Right do indeed have legal standing and, with a majority vote of the people of Scotland the Scottish government can not only sack the monarch and replace the monarch with someone else but as Westminster claims its overall sovereignty of the UK, (under only English law), then if Scotland throws out the shared monarch, Westminster’s sovereignty goes with the sacked monarch.

    Now you know why The Scottish Claim of Right has been so studiously ignored by Westminster and the MSM.

  315. Gfaetheblock says:

    Thanks both

  316. HandandShrimp says:

    Wonder if Boris will come out fighting at PMQ and say to Corbyn “you called for an election yesterday, let’s do it or are you still a big girl’s* blouse”

    * other blouses are available.

  317. call me dave says:


    Your in good form this week Mr Peffers. 🙂

    My old Tory at the next table in the cafe just now fuming
    “How can a Scottish Court” tell England what to do?”

    I remind her that it wasn’t just 11-0 it was 14-0

    “Hmmm! Something wrong somewhere” she mutters.

  318. call me dave says:

    No PMQs today. Couldn’t be organised in time.

    But Boris will get quizzed alright.

    The National is a good read today.
    Cherry for FM. ?? Now is not the time. Maybe sometime.

  319. Shug says:

    Once independence is here what do we do about unionist mp, msp and councillors. Can we really let this sit in positions of power knowing they will do everything to undermine the new government work for what will be a foreign power. Should they be allowed to keep their ill gotten gains, rank and position.
    Should we dig out the Westminster proscription acts and reverse the position with loss of position and confiscation of assets.
    They can hardly complain when we implement an Westminster act with them on the losing side
    Just a thought

  320. Shug says:

    Watching and listening to the BBC airbrush Joanna Cherry out of the news makes me smile.
    Wait till the clerk to the court of session writes to Europe to cancel brexit
    I will need to be sitting down at that point

  321. admiral says:

    Shug says:
    25 September, 2019 at 10:34 am
    Watching and listening to the BBC airbrush Joanna Cherry out of the news makes me smile.
    Wait till the clerk to the court of session writes to Europe to cancel brexit
    I will need to be sitting down at that point

    I’m seriously beginning to wonder if their is some sort of pact between the UK government and the MSM to, in effect, ignore the SNP as much as possible, deny access to political comment programmes/interviews (unless it is some screeching, hysterical SNP BAAADDD story!!!!!!!).

  322. RobertTheTruth says:

    The spin on the SNP position here is astonishing. Peffers really is the Lord Haw Haw of the SNP.

    Do you all really think this was a ‘victory’ for the SNP and independence in any way whatsoever? It was a victory for the integrity of the Union. It played into the hands of those who say Scotland rubs along fine here. It showed that with regard to the law at least,the Union is working in its disparate bits.

    The Supreme court ruling did not overrule the the Court of Session because it regarded its findings irrelevant. The Court of Session found the prorogation unlawful due to motive – this was ignored by the Supreme Court,in fact Pannick in his summing up said he was not using that as an argument.

    The Court of Session ruling was essentially put to the side and the Gina Miller case took centre stage as was it was always going to be.

    If the Supreme court had over ruled the Court of Session THEN there might have been a case for saying Scotland’s Institutions are being subsumed but that didn’t happen they were just ignored.

    It was a massive own goal with Joanna Cherry et al playing their part in the UK game and those here who think we have done ourselves a favour are as deluded as ever.

    And yes, there is a massive split in the SNP coming to the surface and all the spinners have done here is to show how out of touch they are with the ground roots of the Yes movement who see the SNP as mostly pale, stale and pandering to the males.

  323. haudonthenoo says:

    No PMQ today. Bozzo to speak (lie) late afternoon.

  324. manandboy says:

    OK. Q. What is Brexit about?

    Everyone thinks it’s about leaving, or remaining in, the EU. And that is what it was at the time of the EU referendum on 23rd June 2016, and for most people it still is. And so the UK is divided into Remainers and Brexiters.

    But not for everybody.

    For the wealthy, Brexit is now just about money. To them, the UK is divided into the Rich and the Rest. And the Rich are determined to get even richer by leaving the EU. The Rest? They don’t matter to the Rich.

    Then there are those who see Brexit as a chance to create a radical upheaval in how the UK is run, so as to align the UK with the USA, in a much closer way than just the ‘special relationship’. This group includes people from outside the UK. It also includes loads of money. Dark Money.

    And then, importantly, Brexit is about ‘keeping’ Scotland, as a part of England. Wholly owned by the Rich. Otherwise, Brexit will be bad, very bad.

    Finally, Brexit is about the politically illiterate, and those who can be fooled by politicians and the Media all the time.

  325. manandboy says:

    Sky News understands SNP justice spokeswoman Joanna Cherry has been granted an urgent question to ask Attorney General Geoffrey Cox to make a statement on the legal opinion on the advice given to the Queen on the decision to prorogue Parliament


    Sky News understands the Government is giving five oral statements today including the Prime Minister giving an update to Parliament

    On Twitter.

  326. Cubby says:

    I see the Britnats have moved on from Dr Jim to Robert Peffers.

    Just keep on posting guys and tell the Britnats to get lost. Their UK is falling apart and they are starting to froth at the mouth.

  327. callmedave says:

    Hosie says the SNP would like a vote of no confidence now but can’t call it, that’s down to the 2nd biggest party (Labour) to instigate. Well OK… that’s the heat off then 🙂

    Prof Curtis says GE basically SNP does well the rest is all in the melting point, throw in the Brexit Party and who knows.

  328. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    Fact check: “Legally what Westminster really happens to be is the legal parliament of the United Kingdom so what will be exiting the European Parliament is the United Kingdom”


    Fact check: “What that Inner Scottish Court of Session ruling and the so called United Kingdom Supreme Court acceptance of the Scottish courts decision does is expose that what is about to leave the European Union is the two, (equally sovereign), partnership of the United Kingdom”.

    Wrong : the Cherry and Miller cases were about: was the PM / Queen proroguing UK Parliament for five weeks lawful? The SP made no assessment about whether Scotland and England are equally sovereign partners of the UK.

    Fact check: The Supreme Court recognised the Claim of Right.

    Correct: it recognised the Claim of Right and Bill of Rights as parliamentary legislation from Scots law and English law respectively.

    Fact Check: “with a majority vote of the people of Scotland the Scottish government can not only sack the monarch and replace the monarch with someone else”

    At best, Unproven.

    Fact: When James VII was “sacked” it was done by the Scottish Parliament, not by a majority vote of the people of Scotland.

    Fact: Currently UK Parliament decides who can be monarch of the UK, not the people of Scotland, not the Scottish Parliament.

    Fact: the Queen is monarch and head of state of the UK, and a number of other countries such as Canada and Australia. The Claim of Right said those who are married to a Catholic cannot inherit the throne. UK Parliament said those married to a Catholic can inherit the throne of the United Kingdom.

    ” if Scotland throws out the shared monarch, Westminster’s sovereignty goes with the sacked monarch”.

    Fact: for as long as Scotland remains part of the political United Kingdom, Scotland cannot change the political head of state of the UK.

    Fact: England’s Parliamentary sovereignty came from the sovereignty of the monarch of the Kingdom of England in Parliament. England’s Parliament became the parliament of Great Britain by adding Scots MPs and Lords. UK Parliament follows the same principle of sovereignty as the parliament of England.

    Fact: the Cherry case upheld UK Parliamentary sovereignty, NOT about the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

  329. Bob Mack says:

    Someone be better tell the Rev the SNP isn’t divided. He is labouring under the delusion that Nicola and those in Westminster appear to have completely differing views. Funny that.

  330. Hamish100 says:

    Robert the truth?

    Liar more like, dont you think?

  331. Robert Peffers says:

    @Adrian B says:24 September, 2019 at 2:19 pm:

    ” … The polls are resolutely not moving dramatically in our favour right now. “

    What utter claptrap, Adrian B. Let me put things into perspective for you. I’m in my mid 80s and began supporting the SNP and Scottish independence when only just into my teens.

    So I’ve watched a slow but certain move from when the SNP and their supporters were regarded by the general population of Scotland as the lunatic fringe/dangerous terrorists/enemies of the state until now over every second person you speak to is a fellow independence supporter.

    Yet here you are complaining about a lack of dramatic change in support for independence at a time when we have a Worldwide respected SNP Scottish Government with polls showing they will probably sweep the boards both at Holyrood and Westminster with polls showing the two main unionist parties could even be totally wiped from Scottish seats both at Holyrood and Westminster.

    Not to mention that the current court rulings in highest courts in both Scotland and, (effectively), England have just made momentous decisions, (presently not being reported as momentous in both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom).

    Even here on Wings the full importance of those decisions is being swept under the carpet. Make no mistake, this is a game changer and I have personally been pushing it since I was a schoolboy.

    Since before the Declaration of Arbroath, (1320), it has been a main tenet of Scots Law and was accepted internationally in 1320 by the then international authority of the Holy Roman See, that the people of Scotland and not either the monarch or the parliament were legally sovereign. This is, “The Scottish Claim of Right”. This Claim of Right has been officially reaffirmed by the Scots several times since including in the Treaty of Union and by the cross-party Holyrood Parliament.

    Many signs of it are seen in our modern Scotland today. We Scots have legal right to roam in Scotland. None but police or authorised people, such as local councils, can tow away or clamp vehicles parked on private land and then demand payment to return the vehicle back to the owner. In fact to do so is a criminal offence of coercion i.e. demanding money with menaces. Also there is no crime of Blackmail under Scots law nor is there an English style crime of Trespass. These are all due to the people being legally sovereign.

    Under English law, (applied throughout the two and a bit countries of the Kingdom of England), their current laws on sovereignty were changed in 1688 by the English, “Glorious Revolution”, in 1688, by which the old rule of law of, “Divine Right of Kings”, was only slightly changed. The changes left the monarchy of England still legally sovereign but to stay as monarch they had to legally delegate their Divine Right of Kings, (sovereignty), to the Parliament of England.

    Thus in 1706/7 when the two equally sovereign kingdoms were negotiating the Treaty of Union, (note NOT the two parliaments individual Acts of Union), the two kingdoms had the problem that their laws of sovereignty were totally incompatible. You simply cannot have both the people and the monarchy/parliament legally sovereign at the same time and this is reflected in the Articles of Union of The Treaty of Union.

    The result is that the Treaty of Union states that the English and Scottish legal systems must remain in perpetuity independent of each other.

    However what happened in fact was that on 1 May 1707, when the brand new Parliament of the new parliament of the United Kingdom sat for the first time, it continued as if it was the continuing Parliament of England tolerating an influx of rather unwelcome Scottish Members.

    This in itself was not only a breach of the Treaty of Union but the Westminster Parliament of the United Kingdom applied the English law of the Monarchy of England’s sovereign powers being delegated to the United Kingdom Parliament but the illegal fact was, and still is, there was and still is not, a legally elected parliament of England.

    That means since 1 May 1707 Westminster has run as if it were the sovereign parliament of England but not a single members has ever been elected as a member of the parliament of England. Then came devolution and that broke lots more terms of the Treaty of Union.

    So now, for the first time in 312 years, Westminster has had to 6ak tent o The Scottish Claim of Right that it has till now just ignored and that Claim of Right just applied to proroguing of , blows the roof right over the way Westminster has been running for 312 years. Yet if you believe the Westminster controlled media you would not have the slighted hint of how momentous the courts’ rulings really are.

    As the old saying has it, “but they don’t want you to know that”, but now we do and so do the courts.

  332. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Good stuff in several places today.

    from Kevin McKenna in today’s National

    “and poor Richard Leonard,a man who would look out of his depth in a paddling pool….”
    and lots of generous praise for Blackford, Sturgeon and Cherry.

    More significantly,from the Daily Record editorial

    “The devastating impact on Johnson’s personal reputation is also significant.
    He has repeatedly insisted he will veto any request from Nicola Sturgeon for a second referendum. That notion was a democratic disgrace before this judgement.”
    But the idea that an unelected PM with a history of breaking the law could refuse a legitimate demand from the Scottish Parliament for another vote is obscene.”

    Over to you, Scottish Labour (or what is left of it).

  333. Bobp says:

    Dan 12.27am. There’s a special place reserved in hell for those evil barstewards Dan.

  334. Proud Cybernat says:

    @Robert Peffers

    The way I saw the outcome of the SC is that they merely brought English Law a little into line with Scottish Law.

  335. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I used to think that HYUFD’a interventions on here were quite reasonable and respectful.
    Then I realised they were patronising condescension from a person who knows frack all about Scotland and who thinks we are all daft. Just ignore.

  336. Fireproofjim says:

    Robert Peffers. Good stuff.
    And … although we may be polling about 50% right now, we have not yet got a date for starting the big campaign for Inderef2.
    In 2014 Yes started off at about 28% and ended at 45%. I believe there is no doubt that, with a good campaign, we can pick up the votes needed to give us a convincing victory.
    As an aside, I hoped Tommy Shepherd would lead the Yes campaign, but having watched Joanna Cherry over the last year or so I think she would be perfect.
    So much talent …….

  337. callmedave says:

    Att Gen Cox calling out the rebel alliance there. “Demand a vote of no confidence” …if your hard enough he says. 🙂

    Jeremy gives a soft smile.

  338. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 25 September, 2019 at 11:34 am:

    ” … Wrong : the Cherry and Miller cases were about: was the PM / Queen proroguing UK Parliament for five weeks lawful? The SP made no assessment about whether Scotland and England are equally sovereign partners of the UK.”

    Oh! For heaven’s sake Colin, did you read their conclusions?

    They based their judgements partly using the Scottish claim of Right and the Scottish Claim of Right is thus clearly recognised and acceptable under both the Scottish and English rules of Law.

    In modern everyday language that, “Scottish Claim Of Right”, says that the legally sovereign people of Scotland and not only legally entitled to dismiss the Queen of Scots but to freely choose their own government.

    However it means much, much more than that for it now recognises Westminster, from day one of the union, has been operating illegally by using the English law that changed in 1688 and made the monarchy of the Kingdom of England legally delegate their sovereign powers, (divine right of kings), to the parliament of England but Westminster ceased to be the parliament of England on 1 May 1707 and has not sat since.

    Westminster thus has not been legally sovereign over Scotland since 1 May 1707 and everything they have done since becoming the United Kingdom Parliament has been done illegally.

    Furthermore, by accepting the Claim of Right, it means Westminster and the Queen of Scots can be thrown out at will by the people of Scotland.

  339. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    Scots Law has the common law offence of extortion.

  340. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    If you are claiming the SP ruling said this or that, feel free to quote the court’s ruling to support your assertions, instead of placing your own interpretation on things.

    Mixing facts and conflating matters of common law in Scots Law with constitutional law to support your position weakens your case, in my opinion.

    Much of what you say is good, constitutionally, but then you over egg the pudding to twist things to supporting the SNP’s indyref policy.

    Ian Murray, arch-unionist was a co-party with Ms Cherry.

    You think he helped bring the case to support Scottish independence?

    No. This was about UK Parliamentary sovereignty. And little or nothing to do with Scottish sovereignty.

    I just hope, as you do, that support for indy will continue to grow as people see how corrupt the UK is and that the UK state is unfit for purpose.

    Scotland could do better than this.

  341. HYUFD says:

    Fireproofjim All that happened in 2014 was Yes hovered up most of the 45% who voted SNP in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections and ended up with, yes, 45%

    That will not happen again. Scotland is now polarised between SNP backing Yes voters and Tory, LD and Labour No voters

  342. galamcennalath says:

    Cox saying that parliament is dead and has no right to sit.

    Nope. This WM parliament was elected specifically to deal with Brexit. The 2017 election was about Brexit and gave WM a mandate to deal with it.

    Now, as for the minority government, it has now run it’s course. There doesn’t need to be a GE to select a new government.

    Would a GE help solve the Brexit stalemate by delivering consensus among elected MPs? Unlikely!

    Parliament is split in three. Hard crash and burn leave, soft organised leave, and remain. There is always a majority to oppose the plan of any one group, but never a majority to actually deliver a solution. That won’t change.

    The far right are trying to hi-jack the EURef and WM to get their ideas through. And, as the default, they still have a good chance.

    The remainders would do the same, if they could IMO.

    No majority for anything, so chaos will continue.

    It’s time (very soon surely) for Scotland to opt for the complete clarity of independence in the EU.

  343. Cubby says:

    Cox calling out the opposition parties for their lack of morals.

    Bloody hell these Tories have the biggest brass necks possible. Johnson and his mob – what do they know about morals.

  344. Bob Mack says:

    It’s rather amusing listening to Cox demand a vote of no confidence in his own government.

    Nobody has as yet given him an honest answer. The truth is the Tories introduced the Fixed Term Parliament Act, and have now found themselves hooked like a flounder on a barb of their own making. Why would anyone give them the opportunity to throw that hook?

    They are al! but landed in their own net.

  345. dadsarmy says:

    I’m sure Nana would post something from Aileen McHarg, and there is some good stuff. It’s worth reading all her timeline about the UKSC here:

    and the article wot she wrote yesterday here:

    particularly the last 1 and a half paragraphs starting here:

    . . . have all been directed at upholding the authority of the Westminster Parliament.“.

  346. Cubby says:

    Cox started off as a reasonable lawyer but has now completely lost the plot.

    He did confirm that the EU referendum was not legally binding on Parliament but morally binding.

    Cox is now an embarrassing rabble rouser.

  347. dadsarmy says:

    @Colin Alexander
    Thanks for that nls link, I made a mistake, it was the 5th May 1707, not the 1st May.

    Interesting don’t you think, that it uses the Treaty of Union to try to legitimise the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament by the Queen by proclamation – without the request of that Parliament itself? I daresay that would have been done on the 22nd April when it reconvened (or the Article of Union repealed) – but it didn’t meet again.

    I believe Queensberry himself walked through the streets of Edinburgh on the 28th April ringing his bell and proclaiming that dissolution – but I might have that wrong, I wasn’t there at the time 🙂

    Dodgy Dealings.

  348. Adrian B says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    With all due respect, you are somewhat over-egging the YES/SNP poll position regarding a second Indyref and you then go on to talk about stuff from 300 years ago.

    I don’t talk to voters about the Claim of Right, 1707 or anything of the like as their eyes would gloss over and I would loose them completely. They then *think* that Indy is about something from hundreds of years ago and has nothing to do with them.

    I know that you do want Indy Scotland and strive to see it happen. I hope that you do see and experience Scotland gaining its Independence and the early years of a New Independent Scotland in the making.

  349. callmedave says:

    Att Gen Cox is acting as the backstop for Boris.

    Showmanship of a high order brassing it out, trying to subdue the attacks and calling the Parliament a blue parrot Parliament in true Monty python style.

    Begging for a vote of no confidence but Jeremy will not drive in the wooden cross for reasons we all know.

  350. Sinky says:

    Worth watching bbc tv lunchtime news. Plug for jo swinson . No mention of snp call for election.

    Then a Vox pop from Glasgow where no one calls for indy. Shows 3 Scottish papers front pages but not The National which represents half the voters in Scotland

  351. dadsarmy says:

    Yeah, and about the hopefully forthcoming nobile officium, inlcuding how to pronounce it!

    @hackalumpoff – don’t know whether Nana would have these links? Welcome to use them of course!

  352. Jack Murphy says:

    Dave McEwan Hill closed his post at 12:04 pm quoting from ‘The Record View’:

    “…. But the idea that an unelected PM with a history of breaking the law could refuse a legitimate demand from the Scottish Parliament for another vote is obscene.”

    Over to you, Scottish Labour (or what is left of it). ”

    Here’s the full ‘Record View’ article:

  353. Doug says:

    Way-0ut nutter Cox getting positively psychedelic. Cox’s orange trippin.

  354. Doug says:

    I love the smell of England’s civil war in the morning.

  355. hackalumpoff says:

    @ dadsarmy
    Thanks for that, she has links on the subject today and also adds updates and new links most days in her comments section.

    If you find anything new please feel free to add links there yourself as she is not glued to the keyboard. Your first post will need to be approved but after that you can post freely.

  356. dadsarmy says:

    Thanks – I see she has it via threadreaderapp 🙂

  357. @Robert Peffers 10.26 pm

    well said that man – there are too many on here whose motivation is suspect – stirring and faction fighting – what is beg=hind it? – is there a pattern?

  358. dadsarmy says:

    Scrunching my eyes up it seems to me very important to get that 3 month Brexit extension till 31st January 2020. Hence the importance of that nobile officium thing, though that’s only part of the importance 🙂

  359. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 12:45,

    Absolutely spot-on there.

  360. Dan says:

    @dakk & Bobp

    That Crimes of Britain twitter account has gone quiet of late, but a scroll down the feed certainly highlights some atrocious and sickening past endevours.

    I assume some of those individuals involved in the colonial exploitation of far off lands will have been the recipients of ill gotten gains, and that wealth legacy will no doubt be hidden away and potentially be scrutinised by those soon to be rolled out new EU laws on tax avoidance.

    With some individuals thinking they are above the law, I posted a dedication to Lady Hale and her spider over on OT last night, but it is held in moderation, I’m guessing coz I mentioned a prickly desert plant in the post.

  361. Ken500 says:

    There are not enough votes to win a no confidence vote. They could call a GE? Two thirds have to agree. Fixed term Parliament. Tory/Brexit might have a majority. Or might not. Difficult to call. Without a GE. Now Westminster can prevent a no deal Brexit. No Tory majority.

    A GE might clear the air. Get the Tories out. Remain/Leave. Remain support hedged ahead. Another EU Ref. Then Indy Ref. One campaign at a time. Or lose both. A good strategy. Prioritise. A S30 through the Courts or by agreement.

  362. dadsarmy says:

    Well, indeed, the most important topic of all, one which could consume endless threads and drown everything else out.

    Were we all truly wafted here from paradise? Or did some of us come via Luton Airport?

  363. dadsarmy says:

    Were we all truly wafted here ON WINGS from Paradise?

    Why oh why don’t I proof read postings before submitting them?

  364. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    dadsarmy @ 14:25,

    This one is especially interesting. In the recent SC case, the various Scottish participants were all at pains to point out that there was essentially no distinct Scottish component involved, and it was merely a question of the SC deciding on which prior judgement had more merit, the Scottish or English one. And now we know. =grin=

    The only distinctive element there was the point made – by Aidan O’Neill QC, IIRC – that were there to be a difference in judgement between the two legal jurisdictions, the one most protective of our (currently) shared parliament in Westminster should be the one chosen. Which would be a very convenient way of resolving any potential discrepancy in that case at least, since WM is supposed to be paramount. In the event, however, that didn’t seem to be a significant determining factor. The good jurists were just as scared of the potential looming democratic loophole for England as they were for Scotland.

    However, this is not at all the case with this other pending judgement of the CoS. It is distinctively Scottish, and if the judgement is found in favour, the SC may then be faced with the question of “imposing” a uniquely-Scottish legal view upon a UK-wide (but essentially English) jurisdiction.

    Which is quite a juicy prospect, and in its own modest way much more potentially interesting.

  365. Dan says:

    Oh nozzz, cancel Indy coz the North Sea cod is gonna lose its blue tick sustainably credentials.
    We’ll never manage to survive now…

    Nips oot to dig some worms to go and catch a perch or two for tonight’s fish supper.

    I’m hearing both my local YES groups’ buses (3) to Edinburgh AUOB march on October 5th are fully booked with waiting lists.

  366. dadsarmy says:

    Absolutely. Hard to see how the UK could survive intact, which would really be such an unlawful shame.

  367. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Adrian B @ 13:07,

    Yes, the doorstep test. It’s being able to win over previously-uncommitted or opposed voters that is the acid test of how we win. A lesson from 2014 that still isn’t learnt by all on the indy side, I fear.

    (And which, not incidentally, lies at the very heart of the current SG approach. We win by levering all those in Scotland whose clear vote in 2016 has been so manifestly trashed and disrespected by London.)

  368. defo says:

    A tack to try when in persuasive mode.
    You have a clear choice of future
    Airstrip 1, as a dependant of a dependant of an utterly corrupted, dysfunctional, militaristic, imperialistic State.
    A full & equal partner, and renewables centre, in a Union of (mostly)progressive European Nation’s.

  369. Hamish100 says:


    You are too obvious.

    Rethink your tactics.

  370. Sandy says:

    Breaking news.
    Boris Johnson has been arrested by state police for alleged fraud & conspiracy to commit further fraud.

  371. Sandy says:

    Well, if he can tell lies ****?

  372. galamcennalath says:

    Let’s not lose sight of the different aspects and components of the Brexit malarkey.

    The Withdrawal Agreement – money owned, citizens rights, a solution to the all Ireland market and having no border. When people say deal or no-deal they are just talking about the WA. The first two seem settled, it’s a commitment to an open border in Ireland the Tories just won’t sign up to.

    The WA is the UK’s ticket to an orderly exit. With that exit would come a 21 month transition period. The UK would stay in the single market and all that entails. It is obvious the far right won’t want a transition period. When they push ‘no-deal’ Brexit, they know they will also ‘avoid’ the transition period.

    Then there is the Political Declaration, the non binding document setting out the future relationship between EU and UK. It is non binding, but presumably is expected to be signed up to in good faith. I was watching a Guy Verhofstadt video earlier which was very illuminating. Basically the EU wants a complex PD with lots agreed, the UK wants a superficial short document. GV draws the conclusion that the UK therefore intends regulatory divergence and therefore a weak future trade agreement.

    That, will clearly ring alarm bells and show the EU that the Ireland backstop is therefore essential!

    So, IMO this is all about the far-right, and indeed some just plain right Tories, not wanting any ongoing regulatory alignment with the EU. Extensions, transition periods, and backstop insurance policies keep alignment. They want to sail west into the sunset asap.

    England voted for Brexit, they can have it. Scotland views all this differently.

    Brexit is and WILL be a Tory affair. They want it hard. How much clarity is still needed?

  373. Dr Jim says:

    We’re spending £100 million on a campaign telling people to get ready for Brexit says Michael Gove

    Justine Greening says *Yes but how shall we get ready*

    Very Monty Python but true we’re all seen the TV ads and that’s all they say *Get ready for Brexit*

    In the event of a nuclear attack get under your table

    The British never change do they

  374. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    We’re spending £100 million on a campaign telling people to get ready ……. In the event of a nuclear attack get under your table. The British never change do they

    Funnily enough, about a week ago all this ‘get ready’ stuff reminded me of Cold War campaigning styles.

    I had a look, again, at the very scary BBC 1980s drama about nuclear attack, Threads. The first segment up until the point when the bombs start dropping seems eerily reminiscent of current things! The later part of the film is awfully depressing! Brexit will be bad, but not THAT bad.

    Threads is readily available online now.

  375. Cubby says:

    Gove has now played the sectarian card twice in the Hof Commons. What an odious character – a typical Scot Britnat.

    1. He calls the SNP the sectarian secessionist nationalist party.

    2. Then later he equates the SNP MPs to the noise the crowd at Parkhead would make when Celtic score a goal.

    It is clear that they are ramping up the old divide and conquer strategy around sectarianism.

  376. gus1940 says:

    Has Boris left his current bit on the side in New York as I didn’t see her leaving the plane on his arrival back in the UK.

    If so who is paying for her ongoing security and eventual return?

  377. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 16:11,

    Several of us on here – yourself included – have long predicted that the Irish Border question would be the definitive stumbling block to Brexit, and so it has proved. If there were some kind of “technical fix” to provide at least the semblance of an open border conformant with the GFA, why would the Leave-or-die Tories have any objection whatever to the backstop? The “fix” would be sure to remove any need for it during the ensuing transition period.

    But there is no “fix”, and that is why the UKGov liars and dissemblers can’t tolerate the backstop.

    They could of course easily sort it out another way by accepting the EU-proposed customs border down the Irish Sea, but that wouldn’t be acceptable to the DUP intransigents, and – as the Tories know fine even though they will never publicly admit it in any but the most muted and abstract way – it would open another big constitutional can of worms with us. Why can’t we then have a backstop like the Irish? What about the fundamental equal internal trade terms guaranteed by the Treaty of Union? (Another constitutional backstop that is very much still in force.)

    One can’t but conclude that by far the easiest solution to this ongoing stalemate is to take our own country back again and start doing things for ourselves, free of all these irrelevant red lines. (And likewise the Irish, though that’s their choice.)

  378. Dr Jim says:

    @Cubby 4:31pm

    Typical British divide and rule from Michael Gove accusing the SNP of what they the Tories are

    The First Minister and many SNP reps are visible at places of worship of all religions in Scotland, when was the last time we ever saw Ruth Davidson or any of the Tories in any places of worship other than doing their *solemn war* attendances

    I’ve never heard of Michael Gove Boris Johnson or Jacob Reese Goering wandering in and out of a Mosque, they’ve made themselves pretty clear on what they think of *people who are not them*

  379. Cubby says:

    Gove in the H of Commons saying it is impossible to predict the price of food after Brexit – too many factors involved. Yet these same characters as part of Better Together were adamant that food prices would increase after Scottish independence.

    Britnat lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

  380. Cubby says:

    The third Scot Britnat Tory has now stood up suggesting that money transferred to the Scotgov to ameliorate Brexit is not being spent for this purpose.

    It’s obvious that any problems Scots experience after Brexit the Tories will try and blame the Scotgov for not preparing properly. Yes, it does seem hard to believe, but the Tories have the biggest brass necks on planet earth.

  381. Dr Jim says:

    The British government and their media will hide and conceal everything about Ireland and the border as much as they can until it all goes very badly wrong, then they’ll blame all the folk they’ve made very angry and call them all the usual names as if it’s all come as a great big surprise when they did their absolute best to uphold British democracy

    How many times have we seen the British do the same thing over and over and blame everybody else for imposing their tyranny wrapped up in agreements they always break

    The British are a blood sucking parasitical tick infecting us all with Limey’s disease

  382. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    the Irish Border question would be the definitive stumbling block to Brexit

    Indeed. The Tories blindly barged onward with their ‘make England great again’ project oblivious to the wider realities and obligations of the UK.

    The solution is undoubtedly for England to just go it’s own way. However, the far right English Nationalists still covet all of these Isles. Brexit and the UK have always been incompatible. There’s no way to get away from that. It’s something they need to face up to.

    There’s another twist of the dagger awaiting them! It’s not the US president who passes trade deals, it’s Congress. The GFA and obligations therein could well screw up a UK-US trade deal!

    English Nationalists must be the most blinkered group on the planet. They can only group think inside their wee bubble oblivious to the big wide world around them and how the MUST interact with it.

  383. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 16:31,

    Odious is about the size of it. He is a particularly outstanding example of the oleaginous dark arts, but he is by no means alone in giving the distinct impression that his kind would prefer to poison the entire social fabric of Scotland rather than see us have our freedom from their artificial political hegemony as enforced by London.

    The sectarian card is a reliable old standby for them, of course. But a new aspect (for me anyway) of the Scottish BritNat deferential mindset was inadvertently revealed by some anecdotal reports (as upthread) of individual reactions to the CoS judgement, that some people were apparently eager to dismiss Scotland’s highest court (“Scotland’s Supreme Court” as Joanna Cherry nicely puts it) as somehow utterly insignificant and irrelevant.

    I don’t think that fundamental Scottish institutions such as this would have been so casually denigrated and dismissed by Tories back in the day. (Establishment Tories above all.) It seems we no longer have “Proud Scots But”, but a gaggle of extremely self-deprecating and abjectly deferential spineless specimens indeed without a shred of respect whatever for the fabric of Scottish society.

  384. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 4.40
    Totally agree Robert J, I can remember discussion on here well before the Brexit vote that the fools in Westminster hadn’t taken account of N. Ireland when thinking of pushing for a vote….
    And yes, I think that a big part of the Westminster resistance to a border in the Irish sea is indeed that Scotland now has politicians that will not just wave it through as Labour would have.
    But rather highlight that Westminster can’t break the Treaty with Scotland to safe guard their Treaty with Ireland and forge a new one with the EU.

    I also think that it’s not pointed out enough …..
    An Independent Scotland ….
    Has nae obligation to the Good Friday Agreement.
    Doesn’t owe the EU a brass penny.
    Won’t object to freedom of movement.
    We inherit none of these problems when doing our own deal with the EU…
    So losing the UK membership and “rolling” our own might be nae bad thing!!!

  385. dadsarmy says:

    Gove is an appalling little man, with much to be appalled about every time he looks in a mirror.

  386. Breeks says:

    Annoying having to listen to Cox on LBT earlier today… Not for his voice and obnoxious bellowing, but his assertion that the Supreme Court had written new law regarding prorogation.

    That just isn’t true. The Supreme Court can set precedents in it’s justice, but not write laws. Parliament writes laws. The implication was his advice to Johnson was made obsolete by the Supreme Court moving the goal posts. Nobody argued, but that just isn’t true,

    The real truth is the Supreme Court did not write a new law at all, but rejected the Government’s appeal against Scotland’s Court of Session judgement, which was firmly established, and rooted in the principle of Scots Law, and Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty of the people. The Supreme Court didn’t write any new law, they upheld an existing judgement in Scots Law.

    The British Establishment cannot even bring themselves to acknowledge that Scotland even has it’s own Constitution, nevermind that it’s a more robust, authentic and powerful Constitution than the unwritten fudge which their Union enjoys. They would choke before admitting it.

    It was curious too, that James O’Brien was speaking to someone else yesterday, a high lawyer or something, who’s name I forget, but the gist was, once the Supreme Court had made it’s ruling, it was clear that it was the only ruling they could properly make. It would seem a “thing” has to happen before everybody nods and agrees the “thing” was inevitable. In my head, immediately, a pair of crosshairs zeroed in on Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty… Once it happens, there will be no credible opposition to thwart it.

  387. callmedave says:

    Pretty quiet outside WM on the green and lots of EU flags only one UJ. Even the shouters have deserted the field.

    Boris delayed appearance in the house to make statement…Oh just getting into ministerial car. Not long now 30mins.

  388. dadsarmy says:

    I got to read the Sun while waiting for my haircut, free on the loyalty card, and it’s fair enough to Sturgeon on the front cover, the Court of Session, and Cherry. It also has an article by LPW, differently written to the one in The National, suits the style of the Sun – he’s very capable, a real asset for YES. But don’t tell him I said so!

  389. robertknight says:

    Just watched a “furious Attorney General” on Sky News laying into MPs.

    Funny how the cowboy caught cheating at the card table is always the first to upset the furniture and reach for his gun.

    In the words of Tsar Nicholas II “what a tosser!”.

  390. callmedave says:

    Matthew Paris not holding back on Boris.

    The disintegration of the PM.

    He’s dipped into the Hobbit
    The desolation of Smaug.

    Forgot to mention the one in the Donkey Jacket who I thought had a vague resemblance to Lady Brenda Hale…. Michael Foot. 🙂

  391. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    The following is a thought experiment, nothing more. I’m not arguing for anything here, simply asking a question.

    If the SNP said the following to London Labour (and maybe the London Lib Dems too), would you support it?

    Give us *de facto* independence. No Trident, no shared military, no shared tax system, no shared anything. Separate policies on everything from EU membership to govt borrowing to healthcare to general economic policy. The income from Scotland’s exports, oil included, will all remain in Scotland. WM will have no influence whatsoever on the lives of Scots. In other words, give us every single thing an independent Scotland would have (a very different prospect from e.g. Devomax). And every one of these has to be enshrined in impregnable legislation.

    In exchange we won’t technically leave the UK for 5 or 10 years and will continue to send 50+ MPs to WM to help you battle your proto-fascist opponents.

    The overall message is that Scotland will be fully independent sooner or later anyway. So let’s make the separation period as mutually beneficial as possible for the centre-left, anti-fascist parties.

    Be warned: this thought experiment has driven some people so berserk they’ve ended up hospitalised, almost.

    I am highly sceptical about the SNP’s Plan A ever succeeding. So in the absence of any clear info about Plan B, the above is just a not-entirely-serious attempt to start exploring other possibilities.

  392. Cubby says:

    The crazy mad world of Westminster politics – Johnson egging on the leader of the opposition to table a vote of no confidence in himself.

    What sort of idiots in Scotland want to be governed by these charlatans in the mad house that is Westminster. Britnats you are all mad bampots.

  393. callmedave says:

    Boris and Jeremy both doing the Chinese circus plate spinning and its not a advertisement for good government.

    What are Blackford’s orders from North of the wall
    Oh here he is!

  394. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    For new readers and existing readers who haven’t got round to it yet…

    This crowdfunder needs your help. £4,451 raised of £12,500 target from only 204 donors…

    “Back in 2014 we brought in the first ever mass produced Yes Flags.
    It wasn’t easy, At the time it was the biggest single import we’d done and it was hit by snags , and delays, and initial doubts from donors.
    But eventually, with help along the way, we succeeded and provided #Indyref1 with a great shot in the arm at a crucial period. This time around we’re making another 6000 of the original Yes Saltires, 3000 EU Saltires, 1500 Yes Saltire Car Flags, and 1500 sets of Yes Saltire car wing mirror covers**.”

    (Read more (and contribute?) at this link:-

  395. Ghillie says:

    Macart @ 7.02 am 🙂

    Robert Peffers 🙂

    But see when somebody lists stuff with ‘Fact:’ in front of it, I just start to laugh.

  396. Cubby says:

    Note to BDTT happy to say that as promised I am one of the 204.

  397. manandboy says:

    MalcolmMcCandle @WingsScotland Yet the SNP still dither and procrastinate

    When a big cat is stalking her prey, she treads extremely carefully even at times stopping to adopt a ‘freeze’ position.

    And yet there are still too many who are fiercely critical of Nicola as she positions Scotland for a leap at the right moment into Independence.

    Fools rush in…. only to come a cropper.

  398. Robert Louis says:

    What a joke Westminster has become, and what a very dangerous man Boris Johnson has become. We now have a situation where the prime minister is asked if he will obey the law, FFS.

    We must get out of this cursed union with England ASAP. We really, really must, and sitting about waiting for some day in the future when the Scottish Government finally decides to honour its commitment on a referendum is just not good enough. We don’t need out in a year’s time, we need out now.

    Never felt so scared about the future of the country than I do now. It is sliding into dictatorship, and yet few seem able to see it happening.

    Scary, scary times.

  399. barpe says:

    I’m very confused, I thought this was an Indy website, and I thought the SNP was the only credible way to make it happen, yet the author of this site has spent most of today ‘knocking’ the SNP on his twitter page.???

  400. Col.Blimp IV says:

    robertknight says : “Funny how the cowboy caught cheating at the card table”

    The thing is He didn’t realy cheat, he didn’t even give Boris bad advice as such – he is a lawyer – not a clairvoyant.

    There was no rule in existence that prohibited the PM from asking the Queen to prorogue parliament for longer than is the norm.

    And there still isn’t, all that has been established is that parliament cannot be prorogued against the wishes of the majority.

    But even that is not LAW it is not even written in so many words on a piece of paper, far less carved in stone.

    It only holds water until somebody challenges it and another bunch of bewigged fossils mull over the machinations of long-dead megalomaniac kings and religious bampots, back in the bygone days of yore … and come to a different conclusion.

  401. Dr Jim says:

    @barpe 7:57pm

    Yep that’s what he does, haven’t you guessed yet

    Don’t worry Joanna’s next court case is about to start and Boris is going to lose this one too and referendum here we come
    Don’t let anyone kid you different, much though they try

  402. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 18:44,

    In a word, no.

    In a few more words, trust Perfidious Albion to stand by any agreement that kept us tethered to it and still subject to its ultimate fiat and interference? =laugh=

    This kind of thing would only drive you batty if you tried to contemplate making it work. Shove it directly into the bucket of unworkable notions and you feel just fine.

    Better than fine, actually. Quite refreshed and empowered!

  403. John Thomson says:

    Boris stoking up English nationalism this is not going to end well

  404. defo says:

    You’re not confused. It’s pro-indy, non-affiliated.
    And not a cult.
    What a sorry state we’d be in, if criticism of our de-facto leaders wasn’t allowed.

  405. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 6.44
    No…. I wouldn’t agree.
    Leaving aside that they can’t “”” Give “””” us anything ,especially that which is already ours!!
    Westminster doesn’t share, look at Brexit if they can’t rule it they wreck it…
    And we have nae business encouraging a Parliament that considers itself above it’s people!

  406. galamcennalath says:

    Headline on RTÉ’s website …. “Brexit has become a political version of MRSA “ … yup, an ‘infection’ proving very difficult to treat effectively.

  407. dadsarmy says:

    I watched that HoC though I missed the first part of BoJo.

    It was funny, and if you were someone who doesn’t really follow politics but tuned in to 501 to see what the fuss was all about, and half-listened without really knowing what was going on, BoJo won by a knockout over, well, everybody, basically.

    You can see why in that snap yougov poll just under half of the rUK, and one-third of Scotland, wouldn’t want to see him resign. Saves money on tickets to go see Frankie Boyle for one thing.

    He’s a real first-class demagogue, with instinctive use of popular charismatic language and control of facial and body gestures. As was Hitler.

  408. callmedave says:

    Rev will be happy 2-penalties 🙁

    Cherry did at least have a go at Boris. “Tin pot dictatorship!”

    But not long now. Hosie this morning says “Only the 2nd biggest party (Labour) can put forward a VONC.

    However if Boris goes VONK I wonder what the SNP will do?
    Only a simple majority of 1 is required (not the usual 2/3)

  409. dadsarmy says:

    As far as criticisng Corbyn and Blackford are concerned, for not going for the VONC tonight, it shows an astonishing naivety, a lack of political timing. A VONC right now plays into Johnson’s hands, which is exactly why he’s trying to provoke one of the currently united opposition to break ranks and call for one – which would make life difficult for the rest.

    The firsr thing is to secure a 3 month delay to avoid a no-deal Brexit, THEN they can go for the VONC, a GE or a 2nd Ref – or both. I think it needs a few days, can’t be bothered looking for the exact timing which was published elsewhere.

    I’m surprised at the normally clued-up people pushing for the VONC right away.

  410. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Boris fought the Law and the Law won!

    Ian Blackford in Westminster this evening

  411. callmedave says:


    You are correct that the ‘Rebel Alliance” have agreed to see the Brexit extension through first.

    It makes sense to rule out a No Deal leave first. But what a state the Government is in. As I said this morning Jeremy wont call a VONC. 🙂

  412. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    I hear you, Robert, and respect your views on strategy generally.


    “In a few more words, trust Perfidious Albion to stand by any agreement that kept us tethered to it and still subject to its ultimate fiat and interference?”

    This is what I meant by “And every one of these has to be enshrined in impregnable legislation.” Clearly none of this would work if WM can whip the rug out anytime it wants.

    Also, I’m not talking about a situation where Scotland is still subject to WM’s ultimate fiat and interference. This scenario I’m proposing is 99.9% independence in which London has as much influence over Scottish life as it has over life on Pluto. In other words, London wouldn’t rule Scotland any more, in any shape or form.

    The *only* difference from 100% indy is that we’d technically agree to remain part of the UK for 5 or 10 years and keep sending anti-fascist MPs to WM. The truth is, I doubt want an newly independent Scotland bordered by a fascist, racist wasteland to the south. *If* — and it’s a big if — Scotland could move to 99.9% independence and at the same time help quash English fascism, then why not?

    As will obviously be the case, this is back-of-a-beermat stuff, at best. This proposal isn’t within a mile of being watertight. But if Plan A falls through, and Plan B fails to materialise, then some kind of compromise with Labour might be the way to go, as long as it involves de facto indy.

  413. dadsarmy says:

    There is a note of desperation in Boris’s voice though. He says the UK WILL be leaving on 31st October. But he knows if the UK doesn’t he’s finished – and so are the Tories.

    It’s another reason for the opposition just sitting on its hands, though with the exception of Cherry & Co with the nobile officium action at the right time.

    I’m delighted to criticise the SNP when they deserve it. On this issue though they are playing the game exactly correctly.

  414. dadsarmy says:

    Mmm, here we go:

    Johnson should stop his shameful game playing. If he requests an extension and removes risk of no deal on 31 October, @theSNP will vote for an election. The ball’s in his court. But he must think we button up the back if he believes we’ll let him force through a no deal Brexit.

  415. manandboy says:

    As on other occasions, Brexit has induced another exposition of the Establishment, by forcing them out into the open.

    Their preference is for anonymity, discretion and secrecy, symptoms of people whose activities are better hidden, or at least disguised, so as to prevent the public from discovering the truth about their unlawful deeds.
    Like tax evasion, offshore accounts, and the true source of their wealth. Living in the UK but making very little financial contribution to the cost of building and maintaining national infrastructure of every description.

    The emerging truth is that the Ruling Class is predominantly corrupt and criminal.

    Great Britain – perhaps the biggest lie of all.

  416. defo says:

    And if Parliament actually foils “out on the 31st”?

    It will be spun as Parliament against ‘the People’, it will lead to a winning Right wing alliance, possibly the politicising of the Judiciary, and eventually used as an excuse to justify increased executive authority. c 1932/3 Germany

  417. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Liz g says:
    25 September, 2019 at 8:15 pm
    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 6.44
    No…. I wouldn’t agree.
    Leaving aside that they can’t “”” Give “””” us anything ,especially that which is already ours!!
    Westminster doesn’t share, look at Brexit if they can’t rule it they wreck it…
    And we have nae business encouraging a Parliament that considers itself above it’s people!


    Hi Liz.

    “Leaving aside that they can’t “”” Give “””” us anything”

    I would have to dispute that. A Labour govt could ‘give us’ full powers over broadcasting, constitutional matters, and lots of things we don’t currently have. In consultation with the SNP, they could give us the dissolution of the Act of Union. They could stand aside as Scotland develops its own tax system, military, economic policy, and gets rid of Trident, etc.

    “Westminster doesn’t share”

    Ah but that’s different. Clearly if Labour in WM were refusing to share then this whole idea would never get off the ground. But what I’m asking is if it DID get off the ground and we’re offered de facto indy (not Devomax) with impregnable legal support for this, and the price is we remain in the UK for 5 or ten more years for the reason listed: would you personally accept that deal?

    I’m sure I’m explaining this terribly, and the idea itself is also kinda strange in the first place. But I hope the above makes some kind of sense, even if you don’t agree with it.

  418. Terry callachan says:

    I believe there are a majority of conservatives that will still vote for brexit and the leader of the Labour Party still wants brexit

    I still think brexit will happen but how and who will get it over the line

    We will know shortly

  419. galamcennalath says:

    dadsarmy says

    BoJo won by a knockout over, well, everybody, basically.

    Indeed. Everything is just water off a duck’s back. He could be accused of absolutely anything but would still just come back fighting. His answer to everything is criticism of the questioner and recourse to delivering the will of the people.

    Problem is, every insult directed against him is well founded and while England did vote for leave, few expected that to mean crash and burn exit! And Johnson will simply not reject that option.

    He is a nasty and an extremely dangerous individual with incomprehensible support.

    At this very late stage, the priority of the sane has to be to avoid Johnson going over the cliff. That would be too catastrophic to allow to happen. The foundations to fight a successful IndyRef2 have been established IMO, we don’t need a mini apocalypse to reinforce it further!

  420. RobertTheTruth says:

    @barpe 7.57 pm

    Yes it is a common misconception put about by the SNP propaganda team who live here BTL that they own the site. The actual owner who has given up 8 years or so of his life full time to set up and run this site to promote Independence, is apparently not pro SNP enough.

    Independence is not the sole domain of the SNP.

  421. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 8.57
    The proposal is incompatible with a Written Constitution!

    It’s not that your not explaining it well,it’s that your using the language and turn of phrase of the British narrative.
    When yer world view flows from the Sovereignty of the Scots, ( as mine dose )it’s plain that this is a Union repackaged with just the economics tweaked.
    Again I say we have nae business proping up a Parliament that holds itself Sovereign over it’s people while we enjoy a Parliament bound by a Constitution of our people.

  422. One_Scot says:

    Lol, the trolls are out tonight.

  423. dadsarmy says:

    Indeed, and this is a time for very level heads in the opposition, who must also be “water off a duck’s back” with every insult aimed at them, every snigger, every Tory titter. I’m lucky I have quite a strong stomach, watching him and his front-bench and even back-bench sycophants was bad for my tea. What a rotten smelly lot they are.

  424. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 20:38,

    One of the things I grew increasingly to appreciate when leading up to 2014 are the real advantages – not difficulties – of having our own defence and foreign policies, and the loss of those would (I presume) be the remaining “sacrifices” we would have to accept under your proposal. I don’t think we could meaningfully avoid such losses.

    Which raises the thorny question of our relationship (eg.) with the EU under those circumstances, and the decided possibility that an English regime of the type you fear might be tempted to engage in a hot war of some kind in order to bolster unity at home, including us. (Think how the Falklands War saved Thatcher’s political skin, if you were around then.)

    I appreciate your sensitivities over a potentially-difficult neighbour, and I have a whole lot of sympathy for the intractable mess that our English cousins are now trapped in.

    I reckon though that it is our actual definitive departure that is about the only bodily shock that will achieve the necessary root-and-branch reform of the English political system. We will be doing them a big favour by leaving, and we will thenceforth interact more positively in both directions as proper equals.

  425. Terry callachan says:

    B Johnston is no worse than his predecessors , it’s just that we have got to know more about BJ than his predecessors primarily because he has battled against the very powerful old guard.

    BJ has just visited Mr D Trump I suspect that this was to request that the US put some pressure on key players in Westminster who will help BJ get brexit over the line.

    Sometimes it’s not what you ask someone to do that gets you their help to do something , quite often it’s what you know about them and their fear of that knowledge being released

    I still think brexit will happen , the USA is in on it , Farage and Johnston have both been over to see Trump , I wonder who in Westminster is going to join BJ in getting brexit over the line.

    We will know soon

  426. Col.Blimp IV says:


    If you live in England and voted Leave – No spinning is required – your side won.

    The imaginary red armbands you see will be on the arms of the anti-democratic collaborators and ("Tractor" - Ed)s in the Remaniac camp.

    And unless you have been living in a cave for the last couple of years and or are deaf, dumb, blind and stupid. You will know exactly what bunch of smug, holier than thou, know-all charlatans have been doing the spinning.

    Not an ideal precedent to set for when the Scots vote to leave the UK, when the SNP’s role in it all, will undoubtedly come back to haunt us.

    I am not convinced that the Unionists and the MSM will allow Nicola to get away with a “We were unselfishly acting in Scotland’s best short-term interests”, defence … they will be denouncing her as a serial hypocrite.

  427. Cubby says:

    “I’m delighted to criticise the SNP when they deserve it”

    That’s called letting the air out of the tyres of the vehicle for independence just as it is about to cross the finishing line.

  428. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Liz g says:
    25 September, 2019 at 9:12 pm

    You gently suggested potential problems with my proposal, which was the kind of response I was hoping for.

    But if you don’t mind, I’d like to ask you another question, this time about people like your good self and all the other tens of thousands of online Yessers who keep saying (roughly) “But Scotland’s position is much, much stronger than people realise. All we have to do is X, Y, Z and just *take* independence instead of waiting for it to be handed to us.”

    My question is: what if you’re all wrong? What if Scotland’s position, due the catastrophe of 2014, is actually much weaker than people like you realise? (This is a hypothetical; I’m not necessarily saying this is the case).

    What if Z,Y and Z are all tried and they all come to nothing? What if, as Stu keeps implying, Plan A comes to nothing either, or Plan B or Plan C. What if the UK parliament and courts just keep showing us over and over again what a colossal blunder we made bottling it in 2014? What then?

    What I’m suggesting with the proposal above is that in such circumstances it might be necessary to start thinking in *slightly* less binary terms and to say to Labour ‘Look, you know we’re going sometime. Let’s see if we can hatch out some transitional phase that we’re both happy with.’ (I personally would bite Labour’s hand off for 99.9% indy).

    I know Scottish Cringe Labour have been our enemies this decade, and I’ve designed more than my share of anti-Labout memes. Here’s a not very complimentary one about Blair McDougall (blue pic):

    But if all else fails, I do think one way of threading this indy needle *might be* — nothing more than that — through some kind of cooperation with Labour (London Labour, that is, not the branch office). Let’s face it, that indy needle is not exactly proving *easy* to thread at the moment, is it? 😉

  429. laukat says:

    I’m sure I heard Tom Devine say before the Indyref that Scotland and England needed to part as friends now or it would be as enemies later. Watching the events of the last few days makes me believe he is right.

    The UK is a powder keg of agression and violence waiting to ignite. We are slowly heady towards a very ugly confrontation as every day the language and actions become more extreme. If Boris suceeds in getting his Brexit and a very right wing Tory Majority he will close down the Scottish and Welsh Parliament. Hope the FM has a plan to get us out of this madness.

  430. Hamish100 says:

    Robert the truth escapes you.

    Where have all the unionists trolls came from?

    Are they on time and a half? Lol

    Seems to me they are even more worried than they will admit too.

  431. Heart of Galloway says:


    Aye Rab, that key section of the petition at 9.31am is potential legal dynamite.

    If it finds favour with the Inner House it cannot potentially take effect if and until Johnson refuses to seek a three month Brexit extension from the EU by 11am on October 19, should he fail to get a deal.

    The UK Gov – if it gets that far – will certainly appeal, but that will takes us to days before a crash out Brexit.

    I have no idea if this will come to pass. But one thing is certain – Johnson is an arrogant, self-entitled gambler with a Cromwell-esque disdain for parliament.

    And strangely enough, the present situation’s similarities with the rise of Cromwell do not end there.

    For did not the Scots church government force the English to legally adopt presbyterianism as the price of their armed support for the English parliamentarians against Charles 1 in the 1640s Civil War?

    And now, in one of those mysterious quirks of fate, something similar 375 years later could happen through Scotland’s highest law court imposing its will via nobile officium on its recalcitrant southern neighbour.

    The first ended with Scotland subjugated under the Protectorate – I suspect this time our temerity will reap a much happier dividend.

    What’s that old Marxist saying of history repeating itself “first as tragedy then as farce?”

  432. Daisy Walker says:

    So tomorrow is the last day a GE can be called and held by 31/10/19 isn’t it, what with the 25 working day rule. (I had thought they had to have 2 weeks admin before hand and 13/9/19 was the limit -not good at counting dates, etc).

    If it is not called, the only thing between us and a no deal brexit is a shit deal which is not really being attempted and for which even parliament admits there is no time to scrutinise and vote for, or an extension to A50 – which Boris has repeatedly said he won’t do.

    The right to revoke has disappeared from parliament and onto the lib dems GE manifesto – so no urgency there then.

    What happens to the tax haven accounts if the UK (or a part thereof) comes out, then re-joins. Would this be a way for them to be hidden, renamed, moved, then moved back?

    When did the triple won mandate for Indy Ref2 specify we had to be pulled out of the EU, and suffer the consequences, before it would be implemented. I get we had to wait until people saw how shit it is going to be, but I sort of think we’re there now.

    What will prevent this PM or the next from closing down Holyrood, in the midst of a state of emergency, once we are out of the EU, and preventing us getting anywhere near the ballot box.

    Boris and Corbyn are delivering a no deal brexit as planned as far as I can see. Those fortunes stashed in the tax havens don’t appear to have much to worry about. Just a few more weeks. Betty must be rather pleased with Bad boy Boris, in spite of all the hoo ha.

  433. Cubby says:

    “Independence is not the sole domain of the SNP”

    Wow what an insight. What a revelation. What a statement of the bleeding obvious.

    But the SNP is the only current vehicle to obtain independence. Therefore the relentless attacks on the SNP by the Britnat politicians, the Britnat media and the phoney independence supporters that post all over the internet.

  434. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Being crushed beneath the English Imperialist jackboot might turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

    The Irish have been fighting them for 800years and will fight them for 800 more, if needs be.

    We went AWOL for 250.

  435. dadsarmy says:

    Here’s an interesting one, which is really just confirming what BoJo said before:

    Boris Johnson asked if he will seek extension in line with legislation passed by MPs if a deal isn’t passed PM says simply “No”

    People reckon he must have a legal way around it. Wonder if that was also advice by the pippin, Cox?

    Either way it looks good for Cherry’s lodged action as the CoS to go ahead 🙂

    Jeez, just refreshed nickeardley and there’s this: “Jo Swinson tells MPs she has reported a threat against her child to police today“.

  436. Bob Mack says:

    I have £100 quid sitting in my bedside cabinet.

    Who on here would like to get it from me? I say that the SNP have thrown away Scotland’s chance of an indy ref for my lifetime at least.

    Roll up roll up. If your so confident. I’ll make it easier.

    I say that by 2022,there will still be no indyref.

    Come on .Easy money which I will pay up. That is a guarantee.

  437. kapelmeister says:

    The Ashcroft poll on independence had 52% Yes after just two weeks of Johnson as PM. Johnson has been far worse since then than anyone could have imagined.

  438. Daisy Walker says:

    Given the attitude of LBJ today and the support he’s been given by his party.

    Does anyone trust him or the Conservative party (red, yellow or blue) to honour a S30 agreement with Scotland, even if it were granted.

    It would not be worth the paper it was written on, or last as long as it took the ink to dry.

    Why are we wasting time pursuing that again?

  439. Daisy Walker says:

    2 things for certain – the Tory party will win in England in a GE, and the SNP will win in Scotland.

    Option 2 means they will move heaven and earth to prevent the Scots getting to the polling booth.

    Easiest way, and most profitable for them, no deal brexit, state of emergency, shut down holyrood.

    Not long now.

  440. Iain mhor says:

    Westmisnter – Nothing we vote for and no-one we send there can ever count. I just wanted to gently remind people of that disconnect and also this:
    There are SNP MP’s (and a couple of others) sitting at Westminster, ostensibly to represent Scotland and her electorate. But they don’t represent all of Scotland’s electorate. We have MSP’s sitting at Holyrood who do represent all of Scotland’s enfranchised electorate.

    Westminster elections currently exclude 16/17 yr old (and others) whom Scotland decided to enfranchise and it doesn’t operate any form of PR. Who therefore represents Scotland’s electorate?
    We have often heard the risible position, that Westminster decides who represents Scotland : A minority of Scottish MP’s when it’s will is being imposed on Scotland – yet a majority of Scotland’s enfranchised electorate is required to impose their will. That’s a patent absurdity.

    There is no route to independence via Westminster. Not while the Scotland Act “Acts” for Scotland, not while Scottish MP’s remain bound as Westminster’s animal, not while they are unrepresentative of Scotland’s electorate. They would be seeking it on the premise of asking for, and being constrained by others – all without any democratic legitimacy.
    Independence is the opposite, representation is the opposite, peoples sovereignty is the opposite. There are only two, ‘either and’ scenarios, which lead to Independence: A majority Indy ticket party/s at Holyrood – A majority plebiscite in Scotland. It cannot be other.

    The glaring, democratic anomaly, is the cause of alleged splits within the SNP. That same anomaly manifests as discord within the YES movement and even within the entire Scottish electorate. The most recent relevent questions, are basically: “who speaks for the SNP and who speaks for Scotland”? The answers cannot be “SNP MP’s” and “Collective Scottish MP’s”.

    Whether Scotlands SNP MP’s should be recalled, is another topic of discourse entiry. Though without them, who would the handful of Scottish MP’s who may remain represent? Nothing but a dwindling minority of a rump of Scotland’s electorate. In what way they could be said to then retain legitimacy, as democratic representatives of Scotland’s electorate at Westminster? Well don’t ask me, I’m just tossing fish.

  441. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Daisy Walker –

    I share your concerns.

    Someone will be along shortly to chastise us for our lack of faith in SG/SNP/FM.

  442. Bob Mack says:

    Johnson will walk the next election. Landslide in England.
    Stated tonight Scots indy once once in a lifetime vote.Not generation,but lifetime.

    Where is our referendum going to come from given that Nicola insists it is a Section 30 gold plaTed order?

    A section 30 from the most right wing dictatorial PM it has been my misfortune to witness? OK.

  443. barpe says:

    Cubby at 9:46

    You say “But the SNP is the only current vehicle to obtain independence. Therefore the relentless attacks on the SNP by the Britnat politicians, the Britnat media and the phoney independence supporters that post all over the internet.”

    Surely you should now add Rev Campbell to that list? He obviously doesn’t see the SNP as the way to Indy – can anyone explain how we get Indy by weakening the SNP?

    I really am at a loss to understand his motives. I’m new to posting here, but it’s a disappointment……..divided we fall.

  444. Meg merrilees says:

    Tories asking for a three day recess so they can hold their conference this weekend…

  445. TJenny says:

    Hmm – interesting that when Boris is asked by SNP if he will give an S30, again, in the way of Treeza May’s ‘now is not the time’, his reply is nohing but a deflection to the 2014 indy result. Neither of them have ever said no.

    Is that maybe ’cause it would lead to a challenge in court?

  446. Capella says:

    I watched the debate at Westminster till about 30 min ago. Boris Johnston walked out of the chamber in spite of the Speaker asking him to stay. Very sombre mood at the end. The atmosphere was dire. I don’t think BJ can brazen this out. His inflamatory language and gung-ho manner is alienating even his own back benchers.

  447. Essexexile says:

    How could anybody, with all seriousness, have any faith in politicians after today’s events in the HoC?

    They ALL let us down today.

    Which I guess means Johnson ‘won’.

  448. Daisy Walker says:

    ‘Bob Mack says:
    25 September, 2019 at 10:28 pm
    Johnson will walk the next election. Landslide in England.
    Stated tonight Scots indy once once in a lifetime vote.Not generation,but lifetime.

    Where is our referendum going to come from given that Nicola insists it is a Section 30 gold plaTed order?

    A section 30 from the most right wing dictatorial PM it has been my misfortune to witness? OK.’

    And what good would that S30 order do us – it would not be honoured in any way by a PM who ‘misleads the Queen’ and unlawfully shuts down parliament to get his own way.

    English Nationalists and Scottish Nationalists share one thing in common – they both want to run Scotland.

    English Unionist Parties and the SNP share one thing in common – both of them are afraid of giving Scotland another Indy Ref2.

    One way or another the People of Scotland MUST be allowed a day at the ballot box and a real opportunity to chose their own way.

    S30 is an argument about how level is the playing field when there only 10 minutes of the game left to play and we should be firing in goals.

    S30 Gold Plated – Fools gold more like.

    I’m down to about my last hope with regards ‘plans’ from Nicola, and that is that she declares a Second IndyRef to be held before the end of the year – call it consultative. If it is called before Holyrood is shut and we are out of the EU we MIGHT just be able to make it happen.

  449. Cubby says:

    The SNP politicians did not let me down in the H of Commons today.

    Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

  450. galamcennalath says:

    Johnson asked several times if he doesn’t get a deal through this house, or a no-deal through this house, by the 19th October, will he seek an extension from the EU until the 31st January?

    Johnson eventually replied with a clear “No”.

    Will be get a modified Withdrawal Agreement in such a short space of time? Seem so highly unlikely.

    So, he still plans to run the clock down and crash out with ‘no deal’.

    The opposition have to muster more than critical words if they plan to stop him!

  451. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 9.37
    Think of it like being pregnant…
    Ye can’t be 99.9% pregnant.. Yer either pregnant or yer not…. Aye….
    So there is either a Treaty of Union or there is not….
    We campaign to strike down that Treaty
    A deal with Labour ( do you know how hilarious that is ? ) matters not if the Treaty is ended!
    1\2 a % of that Treaty is still that Treaty binding us and nae independence at all!

  452. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Next Friends of Wings shindig is in Dows, nr Queen St Station, Glasgow, on Oct 25th.

    Regulars and organisers will be there from mid-afternoon.

    ‘Normal’ people (including lurkers) are very welcome anytime after 5ish. Please bring some grub, even a packet of Frazzles will count.

    If you are interested, please come to Off-Topic: and make yourself known.

    Cheers all, as aye.


  453. Essexexile says:

    Bob Mack at 9.57pm

    I’ll no take your money, believe me, it’s an ordeal using Scots currency down here!


    You know, I’ve had an uneasy feeling for a while that during the relative political calm and the long, hot summer of 2018, when indy support was unwavering and May was at her most hapless, that THE chance was missed.

    The situation is now so volatile that Cherry’s call for iref2 went almost unnoticed and events are moving so fast that any ‘official’ request for S30 would be batted aside with a derisory ‘Dont bother me now Scotland, I’m busy!’ from Johnson.

    The SNP have now got themselves so embroiled in this dirty WM soap opera that they can’t see the wood for the trees. I think they’re more keen to finish off Johnson than to walk away and leave him to it.

    I still believe that we’re set for Brexit extensions ad nauseum because at the end of the day, there is no chance of anything else. So, 2022 you say? How about 2032?

  454. Daisy Walker says:

    Watching Boris on Preston and his key phrase is ‘I will respect the law’. Question is, will he obey the law? his respect doesn’t carry a lot of water.

    Over in Ireland the boss there is pointing out that the Withdrawal Agreement is an International Treaty and cannot be rewritten or amended ad hoc on 17/10/19 – the EU needs to see something on paper.

    The Conservative Party cannot be trusted to honour a S30 order and I would dearly love our Scottish Government to start calling them out on this to their faces.

    The really powerful bit is in getting us to the ballot box.

  455. Essexexile says:

    The SNP politicians were drawn into the bun fight along with everyone else by the sheer brazenness of Johnson et al and (along with everyone else) looked complete mince as a result.

    Make no mistake, re convening HoC has turned out to be the best thing that could happen for the Leavers. They thrive on a platform of bombast and pantomime to cover the lack of any details. Everyone else in there is just a supporting act unfortunately.

    While they continue to give Johnson ‘air time’ they are not serving their constituents or helping the indy cause.

  456. Cubby says:

    Johnson winding up his own personal army of Brown shirts. What a disgrace that man is. No wonder his brother resigned from politics and the Tory party.

  457. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Hey Liz g says:

    “Think of it like being pregnant…
    Ye can’t be 99.9% pregnant.. Yer either pregnant or yer not…. Aye….”

    I don’t accept this analogy, Liz. It’s perfectly possible to be 80% independent, 90%, 99.9%, just as it’s possible to have 40/60/80% devolved govt (hence the expression Devomax, which obviously implies Devomin). It’s perfectly reasonable to say that an EU country is 95% independent, while a country part of no such bloc might be closer to 100%.

    “A deal with Labour ( do you know how hilarious that is ? )”

    I do appreciate the absurdity, esp considering the way I’ve gone after the likes of Jum Murphy over the years. But there was even more absurdity to Sinn Fein sitting in govt with the DUP, Communists governing alongside former Nazis in the GDR, Nixon signing major deals with China, etc etc etc. Opponents sometimes have to work together — simple as that.

    But again, this is all irrelevant because the whole proposal here would obviously be off the table if Labour and the SNP couldn’t strike a deal.

    Trust me, I appreciate you throwing up these objections. I just haven’t found them very convincing, so far at least.

  458. Cubby says:

    The day the clowns and villains made an appearance. So no surprise Dr Doom comes along with his Doom laden forecasts.

    Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

  459. Bob Mack says:

    Plenty of clowns on here already

  460. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 11.33
    I think you may have misunderstood where I’m coming from.
    Could you clarify..
    Are you suggesting an arrangement WITH or WITHOUT the 1707 Treaty of Union still in place?

  461. Phronesis says:

    Sinister performances in the WM non functioning parliament today with the PM starring as Boris the Hustler who is stuck at Stage 2 of moral development . There are 4 more stages of moral development before one reaches a level of mature, ethical and insightful understanding to be considered wise enough to be a political leader.

    ‘Stage two (self-interest driven) expresses the “what’s in it for me” position, in which right behavior is defined by whatever the individual believes to be in their best interest but understood in a narrow way which does not consider one’s reputation or relationships to groups of people. Stage two reasoning shows a limited interest in the needs of others, but only to a point where it might further the individual’s own interest’

    Scotland has a functioning parliament , mature and ethical political leadership – it’s about time that Scotland’s reference points were all located within Scotland.

  462. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Daisy Walker

    I’m sure most of us will live to see the next UK general election.

    In my opinion, there is NO valid reason for the SNP failing to declare that a vote for them is a vote in favour of Independence and that a vote for any party who does not share that viewpoint is a vote for whatever government England chooses to foist upon us.

    I also do not doubt that within the SNP hierarchy there will be some who will claim that we might not win an outright majority and that such a move would jeopardise their efforts to secure a referendum.

    If that strategy wins the day they might as well re-name Holyrood Vichyrood…

    … and perhaps our MP’s dying in their beds many years from now, would be willing to trade all their days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back and tell our enemies that they may take our seats, but they’ll never take our freedom.

  463. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Sorry, Robert. I somehow missed your second response above.

    “One of the things I grew increasingly to appreciate when leading up to 2014 are the real advantages – not difficulties – of having our own defence and foreign policies, and the loss of those would (I presume) be the remaining “sacrifices” we would have to accept under your proposal. I don’t think we could meaningfully avoid such losses.”

    I’ve obviously not made this clear, so I’ll just repeat it:

    >I’m not talking about a situation where Scotland is still subject to WM’s ultimate fiat and interference. This scenario I’m proposing is 99.9% independence in which London has as much influence over Scottish life as it has over life on Pluto. In other words, London wouldn’t rule Scotland any more, in any shape or form.

    >The *only* difference from 100% indy is that we’d technically agree to remain part of the UK for 5 or 10 years and keep sending anti-fascist MPs to WM.

    In other words Scotland would be required to make *zero* sacrifices in this scenario, about defence policy or anything else. Maybe the phrase de facto independence has confused matters. Instead what I mean is 100% full-blown independence… except for the bit in the second paragraph quoted above.

    And considering we’re already sending MPs to WM, then we’d literally be making zero sacrifices in order to achieve 99.9% of our goal. (I accept that %s are unsatisfactory in this context)

    You and Liz are obviously clued-up people. So here’s another question for you both: leaving the S30 order issue aside, if another legally-secure deal of *some* kind could be struck with London Labour that got us closer to indy, would you support it?

  464. dadsarmy says:

    It was a shambles. A complete shambles, An omni-shambles, And a disgusting exhibition of a shambles. And every single newspaper in the UK will be portraying it that way, no matter who they blame.

    Do you think that makes it easy for the NO campaigners to say “We’re better together with the mother of all parliaments to look after us in its organised and benevolent way”?

    Getting the UKSC ruling that the PM of the UK acted unlawfully – something all the media has carried – will not do the cause of YES any harm. Nor will it to the increasing numbers of people who know that what the UKSC did, was just abck up what the Court of Session had already done. The highest court of Scotland, being deferred to by the highest court of the UK.

    Legally it don’t come any better than that.

  465. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 11.57
    We will talk at cross purposes unless and until ye clarify if ye mean the 1707 Treaty remains a live document or is Struck down!
    As though it is now a blank sheet of paper,so to speak,to coin a phrase!
    What’s yer pleasure?
    Please say or we will be talking in circles!!

  466. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Liz g says:
    25 September, 2019 at 11:41 pm
    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 11.33
    I think you may have misunderstood where I’m coming from.
    Could you clarify..
    Are you suggesting an arrangement WITH or WITHOUT the 1707 Treaty of Union still in place?

    The arrangement would only work, I think, if the Treaty of Union remained in place until the end of the 5-year or 10-year transitional period. Otherwise it wouldn’t be possible to keep sending those MPs to WM over the transitional period.

    This was why I was calling it de facto independence. The ToU would still be in place (for now) but in all the fundamental ways I listed upthread, London rule of Scotland would have ceased forever. For example, Scottish MPs would still sit in the HoC whenever the deal with Labour required, but HoC laws would have no relevance to Scotland at all.

    If you end up being won over by this, even just a little bit, let’s head off for the off-topic thread for a celebratory waltz or other dance of your choice. Robert can join in for a three-way reel, perhaps.

  467. Angry Weegie says:

    Slightly OT. Could this be the reason why Johnson is so keen on 31st October?

  468. Cubby says:

    NEWSNIGHT back to their same old exclusion of the SNP.

    An around the table discussion of the events in the H of Commons. Emily Maitlis and MPs from the major parties – oh that’s right not the third largest party in the U.K. the SNP but TWO Tories one Labour and one LibDem.

    So any criticism of the SNP goes unanswered. Nice one BBC – 4 Britnat parties – perfect balance in the minds of Britnats.

  469. HYUFD says:

    kapellmeister 46% including Don’t Knows and the latest poll had it 52% No

  470. HYUFD says:

    Col Blimp IV Spot on. If Yes won a referendum 52% to 48% you can guarantee Scottish Unionists would use every trick in the book to thwart it and force another referendum to try and overturn it, exactly as Sturgeon and the SNP have joined diehard Remainers in England to try and overturn the 52% to 48% UK Leave vote

  471. HYUFD says:

    Sturgeon could not complain without Unionists correctly pointing out her hypocrisy

  472. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 12.24
    Thank you for clarifying…
    You are right to point out that the absence of the Treaty makes the presence of Scottish MPs ridiculous…
    A Longshanks option ( we oversee another country’s government)
    The presence of the Treaty on the other hand….
    While it explains you’re view “Labour would give” doesn’t address the flaw in yer plan….
    We are campaigning to end that Treaty.
    The ending of it is an elegant and righteous solution to the political differences between Scotland and England.
    We have nae business in a Parliament that holds itself tae be above the people,and even less right tae be a part of socially engineering that Parliaments survival.

  473. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 23:57

    […] another question for you both: leaving the S30 order issue aside, if another legally-secure deal of *some* kind could be struck with London Labour that got us closer to indy, would you support it?

    OK straight question, so I’ll try to espond accordingly.

    First off, there’s the S.30 question hidden again in the enticing phrase “legally-secure”. Sounds reassuring on the face of it, but we’ve already seen where that leads. “No parliament can bind a successor”. Wolfe even chided the SC over that recent unhappy episode. There’s no trust.

    Further, I can’t see whom such an etiolated (forgive me, I don’t mean to be disparaging) arrangement would satisfy, nor what purpose it might serve. I see another “between two stools” situation. In WM it could quickly degenerate to EVEL-on-steroids, where the English MPs might – quite genuinely – resent our “interference”, no matter how benignly intended.

    But to answer directly your question, no, I would no longer be interested in taking some intermediate step, for the simple reason that we’re on the cusp of a historic triumph.

    (I should say at this point that I have “previous” on this. After the loss of 2014, like many other innocent fools, I made a fairly detailed proposal – one of many, I think – attempting to respect the result and find a means by which this heavily lop-sided Union might be able to progress via some form of confederal arrangement. Which is getting toward what you are proposing. All those efforts were reduced by massed civil servants into a table of cold numbers which was then promptly ignored by the Smith process betrayal. No more of that. Any kind of structural review that involves England is a complete non-starter.)

    I’m done with gradualism. Despite all the current uncertainty and hoo-haa about S.30 – will it?, won’t it? which is getting ahead of ourselves right now, IMO – the fundamentals are now all on our side. If we were to go for something half-hearted now, no matter how close to 100% it would notionally come, we will have thrown away a winning hand for nothing. Momentum. We need to keep our existing support strong and win over the winnable others by the firm assurance that a sea change is definitely happening.

    Life rarely offers prime chances like this. We don’t want to repeat the mistake of 2017. No mixed messages. Go for broke this time.

  474. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    (Damn. And there was me all kitted-out in my waltzing gear)

    Liz: “While it explains you’re view “Labour would give” doesn’t address the flaw in yer plan….
    We are campaigning to end that Treaty.”

    And so does the above proposal. At the end of the 5/10-year transitional period the Treaty ends. The only difference is that during those 5/10 years Scotland would already be operating as a de facto independent state.

    So can you see that the difference in our aims is actually tiny? And remember this thought experiment would only have any relevance, if at all, once all the more obvious strategies have been tried. No way should this be the *first* strategy attempted. Make sense?

  475. Liz g says:

    British Media BSDM Club @ 1.03
    Why on earth would we agree to end a TREATY in 5 now going to 10 year’s ??
    With the terms and conditions of this Treaty being that no Westminster Government is bound by a previous Government!
    That the Government the Treaty binds us to can
    —- Make and Unmake ANY Law ———-
    Can ye no see that nothing changes until the Treaty ‘s gone?
    Imagine it gone….And then suggest arrangements!

  476. Cubby says:

    Johnson’s solution to the backstop problem – bigger and better lies.

  477. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club
    Oh and…. This is far to important to take to off topic..
    Some new reader’s may not know that there’s Only a Treaty between us.
    Forgive me …. But honesty compelled me to explain it now and going forward… Every chance I get..
    So thank ye….

  478. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Hi Robert.

    “First off, there’s the S.30 question hidden again in the enticing phrase “legally-secure”. Sounds reassuring on the face of it, but we’ve already seen where that leads. “No parliament can bind a successor”. Wolfe even chided the SC over that recent unhappy episode. There’s no trust.”

    I’d agree with all of that. But if you’re implying this means my proposal has limited or no merit because of this, by your own logic a S30 Order might be equally pointless. In other words, we end up with the proposal, on the question of trust at least, looking no worse than a S30 application, and hundreds of thousands have no problem with such an application.

    “Further, I can’t see whom such an etiolated (forgive me, I don’t mean to be disparaging) arrangement would satisfy, nor what purpose it might serve. I see another “between two stools” situation. In WM it could quickly degenerate to EVEL-on-steroids, where the English MPs might – quite genuinely – resent our “interference”, no matter how benignly intended.”

    Again, I wouldn’t dispute much of that other than “between two stools”. Such a description would fit Devomax perfectly well, but you’ll see from that point I’ve repeated a couple of times to you that this proposal IS indy, to all intents and purposes. Again: the only difference from full-blown indy would be that for the transition period of 5/10 we’d keep sending MPs to WM. That’s it. No other difference whatsoever from full indy. So honestly, mate, ‘between two stools’ really doesn’t fit here.

    “In WM it could quickly degenerate to EVEL-on-steroids, where the English MPs might – quite genuinely – resent our “interference”, no matter how benignly intended.”

    Not the English MPs, but the English *Tory* MPs. Remember this hypothetical deal would have been put together with a Labour WM govt.

    And I would be profoundly comfortable, as would you and Liz, with anything that riles up English Tory MPs about our ‘interference’. Whatever happens, I’m sure you’d agree, we must keep piling up interference after interference on those people.

    I need to dispute all of the following wording:

    >intermediate step

    >confederal arrangement. Which is getting toward what you are proposing


    If you still believe that’s what I’m arguing for, I really haven’t made myself clear at all.

    >half-hearted now, no matter how close to 100% it would notionally come

    99.9% can hardly be described as half-hearted, Robert.

    >No mixed messages

    Now we have something to agree on. Please do not think any of the above is intended to supercede Plan A, Plan B etc. It is last-resort stuff, only to be tried when everything else has failed. I agree that it would send daft mixed messages if it was being proposed at the same time as e.g. a S30 request.

    Okay, time for bed now. Thanks to you and Liz for taking the time to brainstorm this. Most of my indy chats these days on other sites are depressingly low-quality. Tonight’s certainly was not.

  479. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Liz: “With the terms and conditions of this Treaty being that no Westminster Government is bound by a previous Government!”

    This is the meatiest objection put forward so far.

    I guess the solution is that the transition period would have to be five years rather than ten?

    I’m off to bed now, Liz. Hopefully we can talk again in future on this or other subjects.

    We’re going to DO this indy malarkey, by the way, I’d imagine within five years. We’ll get there.

    You and I
    We’ll walk the land
    And as one, and as one
    We’ll take our stand
    When the angels from above
    Fall down and spread their wings like doves
    And we’ll walk hand in hand
    Sisters, brothers, we’ll make it to the Promised Land

    ‘The Promised Land’, Joe Smooth (80s house classic).

  480. Liz g says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 1.39
    Em… Aitheist I am…. But thanks for the thought. 🙂

  481. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 01:32,

    No probs, you’re welcome. If I’ve understood your proposal to be as close to full indy as dammit (hence my previous choice of description) I would simply close by saying that in that case we would have no moral (let alone legal) right to have our representatives bide in that place. It would be an untenable presumption, from both sides.

    After we are gone, it will rightly and properly be England’s task to find its own way forward. Long overdue, too, one might add.

    And being member of the EU in our own right will be our necessary & trustworthy security. Now even more than ever. Just like Ireland.

  482. Dr Jim says:

    There will be a referendum and it will be put beyond any legal challenge, Nicola Sturgeon said, so I take that as Joanna’s going back to court again

    How do the English argue their case of refusing Scotland democracy in court when they admit Scotland is a country, their courts admit our legal system is equal to theirs, they admit to the lie that we’re in a *voluntary* Union

    I believe wee Joanna’s going to skelp their arses again

  483. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 1.57
    And can I also say… As I’ve said before,,and will again..

    Scotland has nae obligation to the Good Friday Agreement.

    Scotland owes the EU not a penny.

    Scotland has nae problem with immigration.

    Mibbi the UK EU membership is no in our best interests?
    Mibbi we need oor ain arrangements with the EU?
    Mibbi we always have?

  484. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 02:17,

    Yes, Liz. The FibDems and others would have it that escaping the clutches of the UK is supposedly going to be far worse than being forcibly dragged out of the EU against our will, but au contraire. To escape the almighty tangled guddle of inbuilt contradictions that is the UK may well need some detailed working through, but overall it’s going to be a blessed relief.

  485. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 2.27am
    Well that’s how I’m seeing it…

    We ( Scotland ) can do nothing to harm the Good Friday Agreement,we have nae role in upholding it either..

    Scotland/ Holyrood being ” not the member state” as they ALL fucking well told us in 2014, has nae financial obligations to the EU, we couldn’t agree to nothing!!

    We’re no that anal about freedom of movement so as to make it an electable issue….

    Where is the advantage here of keeping the UK membership???
    A “clean” break is mibbi the best thing for us..
    ( I don’t mean a crash out,that’s jist stupid )
    I mean …Westminster ends our obligations…. Then we end our obligations with Westminster….
    We are free then to negotiate our own arrangements??
    Jist Sayin??

  486. gus1940 says:

    It can’t be long till violence breaks out in the HOC Chamber.

  487. Liz g says:

    Me @ 3.30
    No just keeping the UK membership..
    Where is the advantage for Scotland in any “Withdrawal” agreement .
    As far as I understand it, There’s a bill to pay..
    There’s an arrangement for N.Ireland.
    There has to be some sort of agreement/ examination of EU Citizens that will harass Scots by choice..

    All of this has to take place before we can trade???
    Do we really any part of that??
    Can’t we just trade?
    Are these our issues?
    We have no bill!
    We can’t harm N. Ireland!
    We understand that people can move as freely as things!

    Why is a Withdrawal agreement a thing to do with us???
    This UK EU membership is looking more and more like one more reason to dump the Union everyday!!!

  488. Breeks says:

    Liz g says:
    26 September, 2019 at 3:30 am

    Scotland/ Holyrood being ” not the member state” as they ALL fucking well told us in 2014, has nae financial obligations to the EU, we couldn’t agree to nothing!!

    I think that’s a fork in the road Liz…. If we go down the seceding state route, create a new country, then yes, I think Scotland would be debt free. However, if we dissolve the Union and revert back to our former state as two independent constitutional equals, then I think we will inherit at least some liability for UK debts on the downside, but UK assets on the upside.

    There will however be a need for certain ‘modifiers’. The apportion of liability will probably be per capita, but even then, do we use our current 8% of the population ratio, or the 1707 population ration where we were 20%? (I think anyway, the ration of 4:1 is just a figure I have in my head from memory). But it could make a massive difference to the settlement.

    This is why a Withdrawal Agreement is wise, because it sets ground rules and preambles for a period of transition. A negotiated separation will always be preferable to an acrimonious divorce, but the final resolution will probably be somewhere in between.

    But don’t be too afraid of debt. An Indy Scotland could be a very wealthy country with a hard currency which makes our exports expensive for other countries to buy. A degree of debt which we can readily afford could actually be an advantage to reign in a strong currency and help our exports.

    There are other shared and joint liabilities which will be wiser to disentangle slowly by consensus rather than instant guillotine. Say the army and navy for example…

    The craziness of Brexit and all this talk of Theresa’s “Deal” is such bullshit. It isn’t any kind of a deal for a start, but just a preamble to the discussions about a deal. The Withdawal Agreement is actually pretty anodyne in what it says, it is mostly common sense. Pretty much the only ‘ad hoc’ commitment in the whole thing is the Irish Backstop, but obviously, the ramifications are pretty profound, but it doesn’t auger well for future negations when the simple preambles before the talks even begin have brought the UK Government to the point of collapse.

    I honestly don’t know how we managed to get where we are without securing some similar Scottish Constitutional Backstop, if only to pay lip service to Scotland’s sovereign Constitution. The ramifications would have been equally profound and far reaching.

    It’s no secret I’m not a great fan of the SNP, but in years to come, historians will look back on the event of 2015 to 2020 and find there are big blanks in the narrative when things you would expect to happen inexplicably didn’t. The absence of a Scottish Backstop is one anomaly which stands out.

    Either the SNP do have a secret master plan to save Scotland from Brexit and reestablish the ascendancy of Scotland’s National Sovereignty, or, if they allow Scotland to be Brexited, I think the SNP will be in a bit of a fright next election time, whatever ‘election’ that will be. What’s alarming about that is the SNP don’t seem to see it coming.

    Personally, I am not given to blind faith in wonderful plans which are so wonderful they cannot be described in cohesive terms. It’s all sky-hooks and tartan paint, and just makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Whatever faith I have left in the SNP lies in Joanna Cherry and a Constitutional “coup” (in a good way), with Ian Blackford backing her up all the way. As for Nicola, even when Scotland is in this Constitutional jeopardy, I find I don’t even check her Twitter feed anymore. I want to know what’s happening to my country, not what book she’s reading or supermarket library she’s opening.

    It’s now Constitution or Bust I think. It’s the only resolution with the capacity for meaningful salvation with adequate speed.

  489. RM says:

    The Conservative party in Westminster have all the other party’s running scared, they don’t want a general election because half the labour voters would vote for the conservatives to achieve brexit, the SNP will have to make a move now if we have a totally different constitution we have to end the union because our people want to stay in Europe, we’ll end up being trapped.

  490. John McLeod says:

    Thursday morning.
    Stuart – I would really appreciate it if you could write an article about the increasing use of the language of war and violence in the UK. Your analysis of this could really make a difference.

  491. RM says:

    England voted for brexit let them get on with it, Scotland didn’t vote for brexit two separate countries who will go their separate ways, speaking to a friend of mine yesterday who is a lifelong conservative, finally agreed that Independence for Scotland was looking like the only way to go.

  492. Ken500 says:

    Great news, MUP. Deaths down 25%. A great boost to the economy. Saving £Billions. Excellent results. Another grand SNP policy carried out. A five year struggle but worth it in every way. A happier, healthier more prosperous. population. Successful in every way. Another amazing SNP policy carried out. It was only Labour who voted against it, No carries oot.

    An S30 can be obtained through the Courts when it is necessary. Scotland not treated equally Out voted 10 to 1. Scotland never gets the Gov/policies for which i5 voted. Instead gets unionist imbeciles at Westminster. They could not make a bigger mess.

    SNP Conference soon. Packed out bigger venue. Led by Nicola playing a blinder.

    Some of the negative comments made about Nicola Sturgeon verges on misogyny. Especially by men. Unequal and unfair. Nicola Sturgeon is one of the best leaders SNP has ever had, who cares. Rational and fair. Who carries out the duties to the letter.

    The mandate the (SNP) Gov has it to stop Brexit abd Remain in the EU. A high mandate. Then an IndyRef as support grows even further. A good strategy prioritise campaigns. One campaign at a time. Or both could be lost.

    Support for SNP/Independence grows even more with demographic changes. Just as predicted. Hold the line. To get rid of the unionist swine.

    Vote SNP/SNP. vote for Independence. Vote for a better world and a more prosperous country.

    No illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Costing Scotland £Billions which could be better spent or saved. No funding HS2/Hinkley Point and Trident. A total waste of monies. No Westminster unionist mismanagement of fishing, farming and the Oil sector. More support for renewables.

    Scotland geography, unique in the world, supports, wind, wave and solar energy, Scotland runs on renewables. Environment friendly. Meets every target and more. Scotland is the best place in the world for renewables, The last Scottish budget accounts. The Scottish tax revenues increased from £60Billion to £63Billion. The £3Billion increase was from renewables. Overtaking oil and gas.

    A big decommissioning programme is being undertaken. Improving the economy in the change over. Tax free but paid for by the large (worldwide) energy companies. Shell etc. Large project in Dundee. Needs a wide harbour. The shell have to be smeltered abroad. There are no smelter facilities in the UK.

    Thatcher closed the smelter at Fort William. The industrial destruction of Scotland. Oil revenues illegally and secretly used to support bankers and other major projects in London S/E. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The lose to the Scottish economy. The bankers fund the Tory Party. Big backers. Hedge funds making illegal money out of Brexit. Gambling big money on Brexit and the economy failing and falling. Economic output now falling. Companies going out of business in the Brexit fallout and affective inefficiencies. Brexit will make it worse.

    Oil & Gas sector affected by high Tory taxes. 30% since Jan 2016. Until Scotland can change over completely. It is still better to produce Oil & gas or it has to be imported. Fracked US gas is imported into the UK. Grangemouth. Westminster energy policies. The EU countries are investing heavily in North Sea CCS. Scotland is losing out once again by Westminster mismanagement and lack of funding, CCS reneged upon by the UK Gov. An Independent Scotland could get EU grants or loans to provide development. The EU costs Scotland (UK) nothing and only brings benefits.

    Scotland pays a higher cost for fuel and energy in the UK, because it is colder. 10% more. Despite Despite being surplus in fuel and energy (25%) and nearer the source.The therm price should be cut 10% for parity. It would be in an Independent Scotland, CCS investment. It is reported Scotland would be £8Billion better off from fuel and energy if Independent. Another bonus.

    Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years, under the Official Secrets Act. Westminster unionist corruption.

    Democracy is breaking down at Westminster. Anarchy rules. Moral panic. Of the scale. Time to say Adieu coming very soon.

  493. RM says:

    Ken 500, exactly right one of the greatest places on earth what we’ve contributed to the world is unique for a country our size, we’ve been held down for over 300 years time to move on in the 21st century get some pride back again.

  494. Just to make sure i understand,

    if there is no deal by 19th Oct,

    the Benn Bill means Johnson has to, by law, go to EU and ask for an extension till 31 January 2020,

    so what happens after 31 January 2020,

    and does the EU have/want to grant the extension anyway.

  495. Ken500 says:

    Aye, Aye.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other to vote as well. For a better, happier more prosperous future. The time is nigh. To make a better world. Scotland has changed the world. Invention and discovery for the better.

    Join, donate, campaign. Just get out and do it. People can do what they can. Do not leave it for others.

  496. Dorothy Devine says:

    I did not hear Gove’s sectarian message ,I am assuming he was following the Scottish conservative lead in promoting sectarianism since it worked so well for Ruth Davidson , however I am moved to suggest that on the day a young man was buried and many from opposing sides came to pay their respects , perhaps his timing was suspect as well as his statement.

    I too am getting a little desperate but I realise that the media is equally desperate to prevent the SNP getting their message over.

    My utter disgust at the once mighty herald knows no bounds and has been far from improved knowing that BBBC Scotland is happily in cahoots with them and has produced an irrelevant programme in support of that paper.

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