Lies spring eternal
“Colonel” Ruth Davidson took time out from her holidays yesterday to unleash an extraordinary (and unusually defensive) 35-part Twitter tirade about the reaction to her appointment as an honorary military commander. So barren is the summer political news desert that two newspapers put it on their front page today, giving the BBC an excuse to deem it the day’s biggest story.
But that wasn’t the bit that caught our eye.
Because the 19th (!) tweet in the series said this:
By “the Highland Spring treatment” Davidson wasn’t referring to the waterboarding torture of suspected enemies regularly carried out by armed forces all over the world, including those of the UK. Rather, she meant the latest entirely fabricated piece of Unionist fake outrage against the Scottish Government.
Les Montgomery – head of the Scottish-based mineral-water company of the same name – is a longstanding opponent of Scottish independence, and was used in campaigning material by the “Better Together” campaign from as early as 2012:
Last week he made comments about how independence was still bad, the Scottish Government should concentrate on its “day job” instead of thinking about another referendum, and it should get on with facilitating Brexit, from which Highland Spring stood to benefit.
And that’s all fine. He’s entitled to that view, and businesses do as a whole dislike any sort of uncertainty or instability. Equally, the Scottish Government would be entitled to point out that it was elected on a manifesto commitment to seek another indyref in the event of Brexit. But then things got weird.
A Scottish Government official had contacted Highland Spring in the wake of the remarks to see if it could assist the company with Montgomery’s demands that it should be “focusing on employment, investment, those kinds of things”. Absolutely nobody who was party to the conversation has suggested that anything untoward went on during the conversation.
But the company issued a clarification about Montgomery’s comments, saying:
And that was enough for the Unionist media to shriek “INTIMIDATION!”
It didn’t matter that both the Scottish Government and Highland Spring – the only two bodies who knew what had been said – strenuously denied the allegations.
As far as the punditariat were concerned, an allegation that nobody but the press had ever actually made – and which everyone involved on all sides flatly denied, with Mr Montgomery himself saying the clarification was “categorically not as the result of any influence from, or conversations with, the Scottish Government” – was unquestionably and empirically true, and that was that.
The Scottish Government’s “intimidation” of Les Montgomery is – and we really can’t overstate this – entirely fictional, just like the “fears” of the Daily Mail yesterday over the delivery of broadband in 2021. They deny it happened, he denies it happened, his company denies it happened, and nobody else was present. We’d bet you a pound to a penny that if you asked him tomorrow, he’d still say he opposed independence.
But we suppose it at least makes a nice change for Stephen Daisley to be the author of the inventions rather than the subject of them.
Another recent example of the phenomenon was the Mail’s stupendously ludicrous fit about SNP chief exec Peter Murrell and a “wild claim” (supposedly made by him in a response to the Scottish Government’s consultation about the draft indyref2 bill) that the 2014 independence referendum had been rigged.
The headline was carefully worded to imply that Murrell himself had made the claim. But all he’d actually said was that some people had felt that way – but not Yes Scotland or the SNP – and that an extremely minor technical administrative change would help alleviate any public concerns.
Scotland’s press now can’t even be bothered putting misleading spin on stories – enthusiastically backed by the Unionist parties, it just flat-out makes up stuff that hasn’t happened and which nobody has even claimed has happened. Readers should expect a lot more of it in the coming months.
An honorary colonel is little better than being a ‘Walt’.
No doubt the intimidation was carried out by a couple of ‘big burly men’ 😉
All of those involved in the production of so many lies and scare stories that are total figments of their own warped imagination are the real enemies of Scotland and of Democracy.
The owners, editors and journalists themselves are the lowest of the low, truly vile creatures without a single ounce of integrity or credibility.
Keep holding their feet to the fire Rev. A great job and article today.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken
The clause in the army rules and regs regarding no political affiliations was printed on this very site but still she argues she’s in the right. Unbelievable.
Yeah, well. I still want to know if Derren Brown has an alibi for that unbelievable reveal in mid-September, 2014.
Mr Montgomery is presumable worried that after Indy nobody in Nether Britain will wish to buy Highland Spring seeing as how after Irish Independence Guinness has been utterly unavailable in Britain and this new fangled Irish cider called I understand Magners (watery pish) is also not available, not even for ridiculous prices at Endiburgh Fringe venues.
Oh, Wait.
I’m constantly amazed, Rev that you can bring yourself to read through all this shite (is it alright to say ‘shite’? It seems in the Scottish vernacular to be le mot juste to describe almost anything which is in some way substandard or not quite as good as it should be)
I am however grateful that you do. It keeps me in touch with what the propaganda machine is churning out without my wasting my own time.
Does Colonel Davidson drink a lot I wonder. Sounds like a case of in vino veritas; perhaps she should take more Highland Spring with it(?)
Not only is the news fake. Highland Spring sits outside the geographical definition of the Highlands. It’s not even Scottish owned, belonging to a Sheikh in the United Arab Emirates; an independent country which gained its independence in 1966 from you’ve guessed it – Great Britain. What’s sauce for goose obviously not sauce for the Scottish gander on behalf of Westminster or the British granted independent UAE.
Shades of Memogate. Sturgeon denied the claim as did the French Consul-General – the only two people who actually knew what was said (apart from the civil servant who “lost in translation” what was said). But it didn’t stop the lying British State media from running the totally false and fabricated story in ordert o attempt to smear the First Minister.
They failed and it back-fired catastrophically.
We know the form of the British State media – so this is no surprise. The surprise is rather that they still think they can get away with it; that they still think people here will fall for their endless lies.
Making a huge rod for their own backs with their constant lying.
So – who can we take to court this time?
No doubt the intimidation was carried out by a couple of ‘big burly men’ ?
It coulnae be or Colonial Ruthie wid be barking her orders oot tae the Bbc . Any hows the burly men only burl ootside polling stations unless there’s a Cailidh oan somewhere lol.
Aitchbee That’s rather sexist isn’t it? Could have been a couple of burly women.
They might even not have been ‘burly’. Women can be very intimidating when their prejudices are brought into question.
I think ‘persons of indeterminate stature’ would be more ‘politically correct’.
Proud Cybernat @ 1.10
Please let it be rape clause Ruth!
Mibbi she would gain a wee bit of understanding of being officially questioned about her personal life and decisions.
Mibbi??? bit ah widnay haud ma breath!
I wonder what it feels like to be somebody who makes a living as a professional liar.
Perhaps some or all of of those quoted above will know the answer.
@ Street Andrew
“big burly men” is a reference to a tweet made by r#peclauseruth during IndyRef-14, implying that YES supporters were intimidating voters. It was a lie.
No surprise there then.
I guessthink there may be a few of the top dogs in the UK military who might just be regretting making Ruth Davidson an “Honorary” Colonel after yesterdays bizarre twitter rant.
In the rant she even published a letter from the head of the army in Scotland. Interesting last sentence in the letter though so I’m glad I read it.
“I should explain that you may use the rank of Colonel only within regimental circles and on regimental business.”
I guess that message hasn’t yet reached the press or the broadcasters in Scotland then?
The absolute constant in Scottish politics…..a media absolving all of the unionist parties whilst condemning the SNP to eternal contrition….contrition for factually bereft lies presented as truth……would work too……if people were unable to source news elsewhere….say social media…..yeh they would get away with it too….if it weren’t for those pesky kids on social media…with their blogs and….their twitter accounts.
People are wising up to where the REAL fake news is coming from and have realised the true alliances between political parties and respective media outlets tainted very much by the laughingly false impression they try to present of impartiality……not so much news as propaganda…..fortunately propaganda is becoming so obvious and repetitive that only the UGG UGG parts i.e. Captain Cavemen of our population are willing to accept this concerted mind control as presented by the thought police aka the MSM……certain elderly peeps ( not all elderly… I stress) just want everything to remain as is…..as their future will not be suffered long term…..harsh but true.
So why then is independence seen as the enemy when there is so much evidence of a corrupt media misinforming the public while in political alliances with unionist political parties….so who are the real enemies of you and I and those we hold dear ?
As to Col. Ruth…..she is more a Witchfinder General me thinks….thanks to her Tory Orange alliance.
“Almost” makes me want to re-enlist just so that I could refuse to salute Colonel Davidson. (Emphasis on the almost!)
The rules state that it is the uniform/commision that you are saluting not the individual. I would argue that in this case my total lack of respect for the individual far outweighs my obligation to salute. So go ahead and charge me! Go-on, go-on, go-on, go-on!
Thepnr says:
As well they should.
Are there other recent examples of an active politician being given such and ‘honour’? Seem distinctly dodgy to me.
And not just any politician, but a leading one from a far right party which has adopted a blood and soil nationalist agenda!
Whatever were they thinking about!?
It all suggests some sort of endorsement.
And the SNP’s vigorous response to all this is……?
Seems Highland Spring had a royal endorsement a couple of days ago. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/queen-opens-new-highland-spring-factory/
Christ oan ah twintae-twaw-inch Fleein Scoat frame.
Praise be tae goad, allah, buddah, Colonel Davidson, in awe thurr rest, thit yoan next wan tae lee, iz felt wae ah bolt ah lichtnin.
I won’t be buying highland spring anymore. There was me thinking they were an ethical company. I buy a lot of it too maybe there is an Scottish water company that’s not ashamed to be Scottish, anyone know One?
Unionist press are printing outright lies!! – Never!
You’ll be telling us next the Pope’s a Catholic!!
It worse than it was at independence run up in 2014.
Did you see the one earlier in week by Lord Duncan of Alyth and Scottish office, patronising all us ‘cybernats’. Declared that we blocked up his Twitter.
He urged folk if not a believer in HoL to call him DR Duncan.
Yoon press have it big licks like Colonel Davidson and Highland Spring story.
Let’s hope this continues to point where less than 20% of people are left who believe anything in a newspaper from Murdoch and fleet street.
excuse my ignorance hut is Highland Spring the name of newest Scottish Regiment and is that the regiment which ruth th mooth is affiliated
i did mean to make a comment on the MSM but whats the point
Is there not some high profile QC or PROUD SCOTTISH LAW FIRM who would be willing to bring a case of deliberate malfeasance against the BBC and r ape clause ruth , to charge them with deliberately lying ,misinforming and vilifying the Scottish public in an attempt to undermine our democratic right to expect integrity and honesty from public SERVANTS
I and I am sure many others would be willing to crowd fund and supply evidence that this corporation and individual are engaged with many others to undermine and destroy the very freedom of choice and thought
Surely there must be legal professional companies and individuals who are as equally disgusted at this constant diatribe of lies and corruption as the good people of Scotland ,we have the right to expect honesty and integrity from public organisations and public servants especially when we are forced by law to pay for it
As others have said previously in relation to highland spring the public have a choice in their selection of purchases and who to purchase from , this director in attempting to manage people’s opinion should realise that we are not stupid and unfortunately for him he only has one vote the same as the rest of us , which may not bode well for him as he has brought unwanted attention ( the wrong sort ) on his company
Colonel Blimp the cross dressing liar and Stephen Blimp the pie scoffing tosser or is it ‘spanner’…what a pair eh?
If the people of Liverpool can ostracise the ‘Sun’..isn’t it time we organised the same campaign against the BBC and the Scottish press pack of jackals?…it’s either that or putting up with another shitstorm leading up the next GE or REF.
Time to approach the UN to intervene in our colony’s political and media suppression by these ‘organ’s of the UK imperial state.
Colonel Ruth’s 40 now but she’s hardly held down one job. Only actual Colonel Ruth “job,” beeb Scotland ligger for a few years, few years part time TA, injured out with sore back, that’s it.
What ever you think of planet toryboy, it certainly gives fuckwit’s a chance to advance in life.
That sare back thing’s the oldest skiver trick in the book too. How jolly tory.
The unionist media, and its self serving lacky commentariat, are no telling blatant lies. It’s almost become a onesided propaganda war to misinform the Scottish public.
The objective is to put down Scotland and independence at every opportunity. How will Scots in the know, get rid of these treacherous b#stards once and for all?
“Colonel” Davidson supporter to a tee. Just change the accent to Glaswegian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsFtiruIok
Mr. Montgomery reportedly said –
“ ….. We don’t have the scale to operate as a lone state …. ‘
Where did this man get his information from?
The owner of the company is from the UAE.
I believe its ‘scale’ (however that is measured) could be equal to or less than Scotland’s.
I further understand that most countries in the world are of similar population size, or less than Scotland’s.
Furthermore, how have Ireland, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, to name but a few in this part of the World, managed?
Ruth Jong-Un aka: Diddy Amin aka: Colonel Gadafti.
Nae wunner she’s so touchy aboot it. Maybe it should be Colonel Shrillgore: “Ah love the smell ae ma own bullshit in the mornin’. Smells like… shite.”
And unionists wonder why they receive a frosty welcome on many an indy site.
Basically the unionist press makes stuff up about independence, its support and the Scottish government. We have absolutely no reason to trust a word the media says, her majesty’s government representation or unionist support.
The establishment enjoy having the vast majority of the media on their side and unfettered access to this media as an aid to their cause. That their methods are patently anti democratic and transparently underhanded doesn’t bother them in the slightest. They’ll never lose any sleep over their words and actions and checking their collective phisogs in the mirror each day proves no problem either. They wouldn’t be any good at their job if it did.
Just so our visitors know. So long as your various soapboxes behave in this manner? You’ll find a pretty deaf ear whenever and wherever you show up.
Basically simple human nature. If you treat others with arrogance, contempt, misrepresentation and outright fabrication, don’t be stunned when you’re greeted with a less than warm, fuzzy welcome.
When you insult or denigrate people on a daily basis, suppress their democratic rights, their representation, and their spokespeople. Once again, don’t be surprised when they immediately jump down your neck. The supporters of the independence movement have had a pretty torrid time of it over the past few years and examples such as those ATL an all too common occurrence.
Maybe worth thinking about next time you feel independence support isn’t giving you a fair hearing.
We’ve no reason to.
Am I missing the point about the HS treatment tweet?
Is Davidson threatening people who might be thinking of voting ‘yes’?
I suspect that Les Montgomery will not be too chuffed at the idea he could be intimidated by any government. Almost enough to make him vote YES next time.
Ruth Davidson? Not worth my effort commenting on. Yesterday’s news, though she doesn’t realise it yet, she’s blown it big time. Oh, I did comment after all.
Good God I just looked. A 35 part tweet, does that put her in the Guinness book of records for the saddest saddo tweeter twit?
Court action might sweep away a lot of this nonsense. Petty lies told as a matter of course by such a crowd of midgies.
Simply tie these people up with trying to justify blatant lies to a formal court. This incident can be regarded as defaming the Civil Service by lying about their actions in the workplace. That alone should be a red line.
Let us see how Torrance splutters when forced to justify what he said.
o/t
Ma May told Sky journalist the following :
“PM tells me that World Trade Organisation should be reformed, to help address fairness of global trade matters”.
Oh my giddy feckin aunt…..first they want oot of the EU…but on THEIR terms naturally….then they want to join WTO…..but on THEIR terms naturally….British and all that…what.
Is there no feckin end to their sense of entitlement….oh but we bloody Scots are the whingers…..yeh right….seems clear to me that we are mere amateurs compared to the Rule Britannia mob when it comes to moaning .
Just think…….not yet left EU………..not yet joined WTO….BUT….moaning about BOTH being unfair….to whom I wonder ?….why now I wonder ?….Has the reality bubble finally burst? ….personally if I were ANY other country in the world I would think twice about trading with Rule Britannia because they want the biggest chunk of the cake ( that should be shared equally) but in reality they really want to feckin eat it ALL themselves….Britain expects…..is it really coming to this….where absofeckinlutely ALL should be changed to accommodate one wee country that has spent way too long basking in the undeserved glory of a former bloody empire.
We are surely entering the GTF period …..where other countries need to put Rule Britannia in it’s place….hell mend them….because I am pig sick of this perpetual Brexit fairy tale being promoted by rampant Brexiteers of the future being a happy ever after post Brexit for Rule Britannia.
The reality is Brexit is a freak show populated by characters of dubious intent and nature whose collective ulterior motive is one of British nationalism reigning supreme over johnny foreigner.
Apologies for much use of word ‘feckin’ but angry I am….a feckin gain…..please oh feckin please stop the union I want to get off……you know what union I mean ….naturally.
I see on the 32 Signals Facebook there’s a big beating the retreat ceremony for the Darlington Squadron today.
It’s apparently their big 50th anniversary.
So instead of being on her hols at some undisclosed destination with her Irish honey shouldn’t Colonel Twitter be down there supporting the boys and girls in camo?
What the heck does an honorary colonel actually do?
Can an honorary colonel be court-martialed for dereliction of duty? Just askin’.
Clapper57 says:
Quite possibly not.
They expect the subject peoples of their old defunct Empire to fall at their feet and offer brilliant trade deals.
Aye, right. All those countries who often had a real struggle to get away from UKOK’s clutches are going to bend over. The UKOK sense of exceptionalism and entitlement mean they expect everyone to bow to the former world power trying to regain its gloss. Nah, a best they will rip off the fools, and at worst get some payback!
Saying Colonel Gadafti is very amusing but there is a huge Constitutional issue involving the Ministry of Defence which demeans the impartiality of our own dear Queen.
Are all these journalists blind? Hint “The Greek colonels were not a joke”
in response to “heedtrackers” comments aboot” a sair back”,I had wan o’ them wance……..,half a bottle of Talisker and ah was as right as rain……..,lazy torie bar steward……., couldnae work in a convulsion……
@Famous15 –
quite right this isn’t funny although we are laughing at that fud Harrison.
We all pay our taxes and while we are in this shitty union HM armed forces should represent all of us not just the yoons it’s not vitriol towards Harrison just shock at the sheer effrontery of this stunt by the army and backed up of course by our dreadful msm
What lochside said at 4:14
Arrived home after work to a OO marching band, did they no do enough last week? This is Scotland ffs.
I thought that Davidson was really given the position in April. The whole fuss about it on Armed Forces Day was probably to steal any limelight from Sturgeon if she attended any of the events on the day.
The only bit I can remember from her blurb to camera is the governments plans to have 1/3rd of the armed forces be reserves some time next decade. Seemingly implying that she’s some kind of recruiting sergeant.
According to what I’ve read there’s two ways you get an honorary rank. One by long service and merit. There’s a lib dem in the highlands who had 18 years in the regulars and works with the cadet force. The other is in hopes that the person given the rank will be able to use their influence to benefit the regiment that gave them the rank.
Easy to see that Davidson is the latter kind. Does beg the question as to whether it’s her position as leader of the Conservatives in Scotland that brought that about.
That said if any politicians might be detrimental to recruiting then it’s far more likely to be the ones who’re sending the armed forces into combat under highly questionable circumstances. There’s a vast difference between volunteering for mainly defencive duties and active especially when you don’t agree with the nature of the latter. Even more so when the TA has been rebranded as Reserves and are being sent in a support for the Regulars even now.
Were I younger and had a notion to join I sure as fuck wouldn’t do so even knowing that “Colonel” Davidson wouldn’t be in the line of command.
The shouty little corporal is only “colonel” in the same way as was the Chicken Man.
One gets the impression that the Army Establishment must be as sadly out of touch with Scotland as the rest of the Brit Establishment. As they will find out quickly enough as she continues with her third-rate Trump impersonation.
If Rude Gal is the answer, what is the question?
Clapper 57, Ah hope you feel a wee bit better noo fur your rant.
I feel your pain, I’ve done all that angry bit over the last couple of years, and all it does is upset me. So as I’m getting on a bit, and hiv tae watch the blood pressure, I had to take a step back.
We don’t pay the BBC tax, don’t listen to their radio programmes, don’t read any of the MSM nonsense. It fairly helped me, I can actually be more reasonable now, and a bit mair sanguine.
Disnae mean that I don’t care, I just dinnae let it get to me now. Must be the passing of time, I’m a wee bit more mellow.
It’s relentless, and will only get worse in the future. Brexit, and all the attached rubbish that comes with it will push more folk towards indy. Keep calm my friend. Do not spontaneously combust as we will need all hands to the pumps when the time comes.
@Marie Clark
I hope it gets worse and worse, as the MSM get more and more desperate. In fact I’d do everything I could to provoke them, if I had a chance.
In fact if I was a well-kent “senior” figure in the SNP, I’d seriously consider running an extensive false flag operation, and then at the appropriate time, when all the MSM were running to my door and I had wall to wall coverage all over the airways, highways and byways – turning it.
@yesindyref2
Cannae fail to get worse, the closer that we get to indy, the more despairing and desperate they’ll get. Yeeeees, suits me.
“Last week he made comments about how independence was still bad, the Scottish Government should concentrate on its “day job” instead of thinking about another referendum, and it should get on with facilitating Brexit, from which Highland Spring stood to benefit.”
In my view, it is now time for the SNP to let the unionists, supported by the Greens, to get on with the “day job”, and concentrate on independence only.
The more the SNP protects selfish voters from Westminster policies, the less likely there will be a Yes majority.
It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.
Thepnr,
“All of those involved in the production of so many lies and scare stories that are total figments of their own warped imagination are the real enemies of Scotland and of Democracy.
The owners, editors and journalists themselves are the lowest of the low, truly vile creatures without a single ounce of integrity or credibility.”
Rock (18th February – Spitting the dummy)
“Trump has called the media the enemy of the American people.
The Scottish media, led by the BBC, is the enemy of the Scottish people, in my view.”
It makes me very happy to think that the people of Scotland think that we will be free of foreign domination soon.
“the SNP will be caught napping”
Zzzzzzz, mmmm, chew chew, cough, sneeze, harrummphhhh, what’s that you say young lady? Time for a nightcap? Mmmmm, gurgle gurgle, zzzzzzzzzz
twathater,
“Is there not some high profile QC or PROUD SCOTTISH LAW FIRM who would be willing to bring a case of deliberate malfeasance against the BBC and r ape clause ruth , to charge them with deliberately lying ,misinforming and vilifying the Scottish public in an attempt to undermine our democratic right to expect integrity and honesty from public SERVANTS”
There is “Lawyers for Yes”.
“yesindyref2” has their full details if you want to contact them.
However, in my view, the Scottish legal system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.
So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.
millie de colchon says:
8 July, 2017 at 6:23 pm
in response to “heedtrackers” comments aboot” a sair back”,I had wan o’ them wance……..,half a bottle of Talisker and ah was as right as rain……..,lazy torie bar steward……., couldnae work in a convulsion……
Oldest chancer’s trick in the slack c_nt handbook. Its not in the least surprising to read in wiki that Colonel Ruth’s back gave out, in the army.
Colonel Ruth “served as a Signaller in the 32 Signal Regiment[8] of the Territorial Army for three years (2003–06) before suffering a back injury in a training exercise at Sandhurst.[9] She was also a Sunday school teacher.[3][7]”
Colonel Ruth probably threw her back out in a semaphore exercise, or searching for a skyhook. Give Colonel Ruth her dues, she kept at it and eventually found gainful employment in the Conservative party.
How many other unemployable useless c_nts have also got a job with tory party?
Kernel Ruth has never as much as ran a wulk stall!
BBC and the rest of the MSM in Scotland are basically conducting a ‘bloodless coup’ in their constant push to undermine the SG and install a Unionist Supporting Puppet Administration at Holyrood.
They are saturation broadcasting another regimes (a hostile regimes) propaganda 24/7 into Scotland.
They are, plain and simple enemies of the people of Scotland and should be treated as such.
BBC and U.K. MSM are Enemy Combatants in the Media War for Scotlands Independence.
However, in my view, the Scottish legal system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.
So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.
OK Rock I’ll bite. Women like Jo Cherry QC aside, what’s the Scottish Law profession done to deserve your mental as anything opprobrium.
PS FM Sturgeon is also a Scottish lawyer.
PPS it’s not as if the Law profession is renowned the world over as a hotbed of lefties and radicals.
TRuthless is only kicking off because her Honourary Colonelship might get taken off her.
It’s all about Titles and Baubles in Yoon World remember.
Also if Heedy is correct @18:23hrs “Colonel Ruth “served as a Signaller in the 32 Signal Regiment[8] of the Territorial Army for three years (2003–06) before suffering a back injury in a training exercise at Sandhurst.[9]”
Means she probably ‘threw her back’ at Entry Officers Course (probably to save face from failing it).
Honorary colonel? Is that like the regimental goat?
Ruth would have more street cred , if she stood outside a KFC
Means she probably ‘threw her back’ at Entry Officers Course (probably to save face from failing it).
Its three days, if the army were giving Colonel Ruth a try at officer classdom in the army, Royal Selection Board they used to call it. TA is one way to get in.
It was probably the pre Selection board, which is essentially a the same thing but weeds out fcukwits, like Colonel Ruth. Most selected make it though. They’re not that fussy.
Watching Colonel Ruth flump around Holyrood on her chubby wee leggies though, you can see why her back gave out. You do have to be pretty well built to do well in front of any RSB.
Its interesting why she mentioned she was made a Colonel for her leadership skills or leadership inspiring or some such Colonel Ruth nonsense.
If Colonel Ruth had passed the pre RSB at Sandhurst, then fair enough, she could claim leadership qualities that are maybe latent, in Colonel Ruth’s case.
Oh my back! is a great get out though.
Also worth noting, fcukheed officers do sometimes get shot by their own troops:D
Use tap water. Boycott Highland Spring. And ignore the colonel.
heedtracker says:
My mother related tales to me from her uncle. He was with the Highland Light Infantry in Mesopotamia in WWI. Officers who were consider a liability never survived the first real fight. They drew lots to choose who would duly dispatch the twit while his mates would watch his back.
“Unionist parties”? The Brexit vote underlined that Scotland is not a sovereign country, but a colony. There is no “union”, so there can be no “unionist” parties, or “unionists”. If Scotland is a colony, ‘unionists’ are really colonialists. http://newsnet.scot/archive/brexit-vote-underline-scotland-not-country-colony/
galamcennalath
Indeed. Colonel Ruth is a phenomena though. Never in the history of tory propaganda, from the massed ranks of beeb gimps in Pacific Quay, to history’s greatest perverts of the Daily Mail, never has one tory been buffed, polished, protected and boosted.
Even stinky old Graun really weally wuvs Colonel Ruth
http://archive.is/SrRrv
Gads.
Recently Gazetted Colonel Gadaftie probably has her Biff Chit laminated (just in case the Rasman or a PTI expect her to do something to justify her uniform) 🙂
@heedtracker
Aye. The media have teflon coated Ruth. Nothing nasty is meant to stick. And for a Tory, that is quite something.
All non stick coatings flake off eventually. What we need to do is hasten this by making sure she takes responsibility for Tory antics. She is in the Conservative Party, not the Ruth Davidson Party! We need to treat her like just another bloody Tory!
Is this not one of those squirrels by R Davidson?
Paper candidates, candidates refusing to become councillors, the embarrassment of daft ( totally wrong info) questions asked by Tory MPs and signing pledges for WASPi then doing an about turn.
Let’s have a wee twitter storm and make it all about Ruth Davidson to deflect
Some serious questions now being raised about Colonel Davidson being the only ‘candidate’ for the honour.
Presiding Officer should be formally requested to issue ruling on this when SG gets back to business. If it achieves nothing else, it might put Ruth’s gas at a peep for a while – the personality ‘cult’ developing around her (esp in Londinium) is getting out of hand. (e.g. CH4’s Alex Thomson, recently, to Nicola Sturgeon: ‘Why is Ruth Davidson so good?’)
Molly says:
My eyes must be getting tired. I read that sentence initially as “Ruth Davidson to DEFECT” , which would certainly cause a stir 🙂
heedtracker
That’s Alex Bell, SNP hater.
They are now so desperate they have lost all rational thought. The Davidson stuff is a pure construct not based on anything other than propaganda and tactics.
Ruth Davidson is a Conservative, she is a integral cog in that machine.
Her modest success has come about by pretending to be something else and disassociating herself from the toxic Tories.
She shouldn’t be allowed to adopt some other soft cloak. There must be no hiding place.
We’ve had #R8peClauseRuth but she’s also #HardBrexitRuth #AusterityRuth #DUPRuth #DeportationRuth #PrivatisationRuth #BenefitsSanctionsRuth etc etc
@ galam, Harry Lauder’s officer son apparently rumoured to have suffered just such a fate, not as popular as his faither it would seem!
Let’s bring the SNP down
First they lauded Murphy like mad, he was the man to bring the SNP to their knees…..Failed!
All hail Kezia let’s get behind our new Labour leader saviour, she’ll be the one to do it……Failed!
Colonel Struth Blimpidson OK she’s a Tory but who cares as long as we can get the SNP out let’s big her up……Failed!
Whits next? Spiderman? The Hulk?
And you know what they’ll fail tae!
Because if you’re an Independence supporter you’re now just over 50% of the country that means the Yoon party can never get in at Holyrood……. so total fail forever!
Now that must be a tad irritating for Colonel Blimpidson
and her troops at the Beeb,The Guardian, The Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The Daily Record da da da da da da!
So no savaging Rock comeback, for a simple query, what is so bad about Scottish Law?
Oh well.
Its a lovely Scottish summer evening, with a big fat gorgeous full Moon.
Rock’s probably howling at it.
Also, the first human being to walk on the Moon, was a Scot.
https://www.scotsmagazine.com/articles/neil-armstrong-langholm/
Wha’s like us:D
@ galamcennalath says at 6.02pm
” Nah, a best they will rip off the fools, and at worst get some payback” !
—————————————-
Well galamcennalath , perhaps the “payback” will be…..’The Empire strikes back’.
Marie Clark says:
8 July, 2017 at 7:29 pm
“Clapper 57, Ah hope you feel a wee bit better noo fur your rant”.
—————————————
Marie , that was me being restrained and subdued …Lol
I’ve heard football supporters signing “Soldiers are Wee”,
but I thought that would be of greater stature than the Wee Tory Tank Commander?
She is a wee bully with her nose firmly in the Tory Trough and she and her kind always come before the needs of Scotland.
How any woman of sane mind could support the Ra*e Clause,
oversee the NHS being systematically destroyed and vote for further austerity cuts that will see 5,000,000 UK children living below the bread line, sure beats the hell me.
It’s a real shame to say it, but the mainstream Scottish media is just dog-shit.
Dr Jim says:
Yes. Time rolls on and we forget this is a recurring theme. They talk up their latest Saviour of the Union. Then the bubble bursts and they have to find their next Aunt Sally.
Molly @ 9.43
Like you I think this Twitter rant by Ms Davidson is very much a deflection but at the same time it is also very much in keeping with her attention seeking personality.
The story of her honorary post had all but died down – although not gone away entirely – before she went on holiday. By resurrecting it now she moves the press away from the GDP story and other positive stories about Scotland that have appeared in the past week. Not that the media needed much persuasion to drop them still it gives them an excuse.
At the same time it puts her back centre stage after a week in which she had barely figured. A severe trial for anyone with attention seeking personality.
Not only does it deflect attention from the GDP, record inward investment and record low unemployment, as well as ‘getting on with the day job’ it also deflects attention from Ms Davidson’s attempts to scupper the SG’s efforts to bring about these positive outcomes.
In recent weeks, months, Ms Davidson has repeatedly said that investors are put off investing in Scotland because of the SNP. Also Scotland is unattractive because it is the ‘highest taxed part of the UK’. Even the BBC showed that to be false.
All of the recent economic indicators have shown that her assertions were false and that the SG is very much getting on with the day job.
No wonder she needs a squirrel. Unfortunately resurrecting this particular story is not a good idea. There is a deep unease among the wider public not just the SNP about this issue of an active politician being involved so closely, even in an honorary capacity with the Armed Forces. The recently reported comments by the senior officer in the Signals Regiment has only served to deepen that unease.
She joins the ranks of Colonel Bogey
Colonel Blimp
Colonel Gaddafi
Colonel Saunders
and Colonel Mustard
She could star in a Musical about a Fat Arab Chicken with
Mustard.
Certainly more likely than her ever becoming First Minister!
I can only surmise that Ruth is having a totally shit holiday.
Probably Mr Montgomery will still oppose Scotland’s independence.
However having been caught up in an non-story entirely fabricated by the Unionist press…
… perhaps he will have cause to wonder: if the Unionist press are lying about a conversation he himself had and they were not party to… well, just maybe they fabricate other stories to be anti-independence.
And if those stories aren’t true, well maybe he will start looking outside the Unionist media to be properly informed.
Everyone has their own red line. Might have been The Vow reportedly promising Devo Max; might be those 13 frigates suddenly axed; might be Brexit and the £350 million for the NHS; might be the welfare cuts or the treatment of the disabled; austerity; Grenfell; the DUP – Tory deal…
For any No voters reading this: what’s your red line? Do any of the above examples make you think about switching to Yes? Or will you endure anything for the Union?
Everyone should think of their own red line. I wonder what red line Mr. Montgomery has?
I wonder, “Reverend”, if you ever look at the dwindling contributions from your gullible acolytes and realise you could have spent the day going for a nice walk in the park, gone to see Spider-Man, sampled the cultural smorgasbord that is Bath… Any number of things in fact, instead of whining about mineral water.
What should have been a great week to proclaim the Highland Spring brand with Queen Lizzie opening a new bottling plant,
Les Montgomery instead of `getting on with the day job` of maximising the exposure Highland Spring would get from Lizzies visit,decides to have a pop at Nicola and alienating half the population of Scotland,
Lea Montgomery said this,
“I have 600 people that I am responsible for, and I am trying to do the best for them”,
by opening his big trap at the worst of times he has let down the 600 people and Highland Spring parent company Park Tower Holdings Establishment, registered in Liechtenstein.
@heedtracker – that’s an amazing story about Neil Armstrong!!Thanks for sharing!
When are people on here going to get serious about the BBC and the media and the way we are being daily written and broadcast out of existence?….it’s not going to get any better.
We are nothing but a colony…56 MPs…result?….Nothing.
Since 2007 victory after victory electorally…result?…Nothing.
All because we stupidly gave up the right to a majority of Scottish MPs as a basis for dissolution of the UK Union in favour of a rigged and future rigged referendums…Predicted Result next time?…Nothing.
Now: majority vote to stay in EU…Result?…Nothing.
Supreme Court on Hollyrood……Result? subordinate to Westminster..therefore: Nothing.
We can’t win with Westminster. Let’s accept we are a colony and go outside of the bubble and ask for UN help. And don’t bother telling me it will get better. I’ve heard it for the past three years and it’s not true.
We are either being dragged out into World Trade oblivion and into being shafted by the US and China, or the Tories will get a deal and we will stay in the single market and Indy dies on the vine. We must try to get our sovereignty as a nation accepted and treated as the reality it is: an oppressed minority nation being held down illegally by the English/UK State. The EU can’t help. The UN can.
ben madigan says:
9 July, 2017 at 12:12 am
@heedtracker – that’s an amazing story about Neil Armstrong!!Thanks for sharing!
Its not a story! Its our shared Scottish heritage.
About 10,000 years ago, our forefathers and mothers studied the Moon and built this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23286928
‘World’s oldest calendar’ discovered in Scottish field.
10,000 years later, their descendant walked on the Moon they were studying.
They’d probably be rather impressed by Astronaut Neil Armstrong.
Maybe we should all boycott the Daily Record after “The Vow” and it’s never ending stream of anti-independence, anti-SNP pish.
But then again, what about the likes of poor Joan McAlpine SNP MSP?
Can she afford to lose the reported £20,000 per annum salary for her D R column.
If she didn’t have that, she might struggle on the £61k MSP salary.
Oh, how these SNP politicians must suffer for the cause of Scottish independence.
Is it any surprise there’s no great desire for independence amongst some SNP politicians when they are raking in the cash with things as they are?
@colin alexander –
Joan McAlpine gets £20k for a column in the Daily Record?
Where is your source?
There’s no need for colin to provide a source. He’s the source and that should be good enough for this Wings lot.
Ian Brotherhood @ 00:52,
There is no source, Ian. It’s just his usual holier-than-thou SNP-baad snidey concern trolling. Best ignore.
@Ian Brotherhood: http://archive.is/JpgcX
@Ian – his source his up his union loving arse… dunno bout u but I’m seek of his utter Yoon pish..
@colin alexander –
Your ‘source’ is a paywall-protected article in the Herald?
Seriously?
Is that it?
You’re annoying folk at this time of night with such pish?
Away wi ye, ya rascal!
The story focuses mainly on huge sums the moneygrabbing Tories earn on the side with second and third jobs etc, which is expected and should be condemned.
However, a couple of the SNP’s side earners are eyewatering.
Alex Neil and Joan McAlpine are the two SNPers named.
The article says Joan McAlpine is on £20k a year. I cannot say for sure if that’s the true sum, so said “reported” to be.
In my opinion a pro-independence person should not be writing for this enemy of independence.
But, then again, maybe the money was just too good to refuse.
“Bought and sold for English gold”.
Pfffttt!
Just watched Tropic Thunder.
A fine vehicle for Colonel Davidson’s affectation.
Re instant rebuttal unit – got an email from Nicola a couple of days ago with this link, 10 facts about Scotland’s colleges and universities. After Jacob Rees Mogg’s ill informed trashing of Scottish colleges on QT on Thursday, this at least provides some counter balance.
https://www.snp.org/facts_colleges_unis
No one with any sense believes anything the ‘Press’ says. The Non Dom tax evading owners are ruining their own industry. The majority don’t buy it or subscribe to it any more. £Billions in debt, ruining the world economy. Sanctioning and starving people to death. Supporting illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Breaking International Law at every opportunity and getting away with it. Supported by the sanctimonious Press which is in the UK gov pocket. Threatened secretly and illegally ubder the Official Secrets Act. Secret ‘D’ notices. Gov printing contracts. Graft and corruption in high Office. Govs can’t control the Internet yet. Neither can the Press. Habitual liars. They get found out every time.
Many of them are master criminals. Every time they get found out. They squeal to their Press accomplices even more. Most of them should be in jail. Dishonourable people using the military. No wonder people will not join. Recruitng problems ensure. High employment keeps the numbers down. Who wants to be blowing the world to bits? Quint Trident. So some lying, greedy, criminal politican can line thei pockets with public money. Along with their cronies. Wasting £Trns killing and maiming millions of innocent people. The Forces cut. While some lying greedy unionists politician can seek some dire, cheap publicity. They reap what they sow. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Now Brexit. The unionists trying to destroy the world economy.
Firms treading water wasting Scottish resources and paying no tax. Or Westminster illegal unfair taxes. Draining Scotland dry of oil, water and other resources. Scotland loses £20Billion a year on average to Westminster unionists mismanagement and misappropriation of Scottish resources. They keep their lies hidden under the Official Secrets Act.
The money the Westminster unionists have wasted on expanding broadband. Could have connected the world. As usual, £Billions of public funding has been wasted on badly costed and administrated public contracts by Westminster unionist politicans. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Most of them are not fit for Public Office. The whole of the UK could have had superfast broadband long ago. If BT was not squandering publc money. Getting UK Gov contracts it can’t deliver. No free and fair competition. Anti business Laws. Then being fined with more publc money. Squandering and wasting £Billions on illegal Italian subsidiaries. Funded by UK taxpayers. The Chairman illegally still in place?
The Ministers responsible not being charged or held to account. More UK Government fraud swept under the carpet. Not held accountable at all by the squealing accomplice Press. Rotten to the core. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All a total waste of public money with no business case and of little value. There are far cheaper reliable alternatives.
NHS Education/Welfare illegal,publc cuts, to subsidised this colossal waste of public money. Grotesque projects of no values. To line corrupt politicians and their cronies pockets. While vulnerable people are sanctioned and starved to death. By cruel, nasty unionists politicians who do not care about anyone else but themselves and their cronies. An insult to people’s intelligence.and a danger to the world.
Scotland is paying loan repayments of the excessive borrowing and spending in the rest of the UK. Funding which should be spent in Scotland to improve public services. Why are retired people in Scotland, from other towns not allowed to use the under utilitised Trams with their off peak (bus) travel passes. The OAP’s went without to pay for the overrun.
Scottish Water are ruining their own business and trying to ruin the Scottish conomy. Draining Scottish resources and tanking like the Westminster unionist Gov, they support. Scottish water is refreshing It does not need a clueless MD. Along with all the rest of them, trying to bring the Scottish economy down.
Companies will need a licence to trade in Scotland. Until then they should stop trying to dictate policy. No one elected them. They elected politicians to do their best and stand up for Scotland. Not interfere in the political process trying to bring Scotland down. All the time,
Independence in the EU is the way to go for Scotland. For a fairer, happier more prosperous country. Coming very soon. After the chaos of bonfire of the vanities, Westminster corrupt, lying governance for far too long.
Which takes us neatly back to the “Some arsehole” story you publicised a wee while ago only the arseholes are now journalists.
Have they run out of arseholes one muses????????
Or are they just so lazy and incompetent they cannot be bothered seeking out an arsehole to quote????
One wonders.
Personally I think the MSM have been lying and distorting the truth for so long completely unchallenged they have moved seamlessly to complete fabrication without anyone really noticing.
It beggars belief.
Just a comment about Ruth Davidson.
She keeps saying that her party is the only one that will hold the Scottish government to account. For a democracy to function properly, a strong opposition is required and should be welcomed.
The function of an opposition is to hold the sitting government to account but it also has to provide an alternative vision which can give it a basis to show to the public that if given government they can do things better than the current one. It also gives them the moral reason for opposing current government policy.
The question that constantly needs to be asked is what exactly is her parties vision for Scotland if her party become the government in Scotland and she was elected FM?
Also, in terms of this story about the Highland Spring boss being ‘intimated’
Individuals like him never got to the position they are in by being shy retiring wallflowers and the SNP would loss a lost of support and their chance of electability if they were seen as being business unfriendly, the same as any other political party.
If there was any ‘intimidation’ or ‘threats’ that the paper suggested, I’m sure the boss would have called the Scottish Governments bluff. We got the same stories during the indy ref. It was BS then and it is BS now.
There is absolutely no point in complaing about this.
Its the unionist parties modu operandi.
We know that they will look for every oppprtunity to get a damagijng headline and its quite probable that the unionist press ran with this persons anti independence view to provoke a response preciselt to claim independence suppprters are trying to intimidate people and shut down the debate.
Have we learned nothing from the 1st referendum?
We really have to stop jumping at every dog whistle headline and the Scottish Government needs to stop falling into the same trap, no matter how innnocent there morives were in contacting the business concerned.
There are plenty of-businesses out there who DO support an independent Scotland. Let them present an alternative view.
The unioinists are going to play dirty. Let them roll in it. The mud will stick to them.
So the Scottish government “obsessing about independence” has led to record low unemployment, GDP growth 4 times that of rUK, a very well run health service, record inward investment and rocketing productivity increases. Hmm…looks like the Scottish government should be obsessing a bit more about this independence thing!
Now listen to this absolute num skull on the recent twitter feed on wings twitter.This is what we’re up against in this day and age.
“Don’t build houses next to bonfires”
Don’t ken how to embed it here.Sure Stu will cover it.
colin alexander says: 9 July, 2017 at 12:49 am:
” … Can she afford to lose the reported £20,000 per annum salary for her D R column.”
Nice example of YoonYoonist sheer desperation and panic, colin.
Not a single reference made to back up your right old load of YoonYoonist pish. No cites quoted anywhere to prove any of your panic stricken claims.
All quite typical of a British/English propagandist following the Westminster handbook of brainwashing guidelines for Dummies.
Such panic stricken diatribes gladden my heart as they are sure and certain indicators that Scotland is on the right track to ending this despicable union that has never actually operated as a real union since the 1st day of May 1707.
How will the Kingdom of England fare without Scotland?
Who Knows?
However, it must be apparent to anyone with the slightest claim to having common sense that when a one kingdom in a bipartite union spends 310 years denigrating their partner kingdom and claiming to be subsidising that partner kingdom but are simultaneously absolutely dedicated to holding that partner in thrall the truth is they are the partner that desperately needs the resources of the partner they claim to be subsidising.
310 years of claiming to subsidise Scotland yet in all those 310 years they have not realised that getting rid of such a claimed massive drain on their economy is the sensible thing for the Kingdom of England to do.
Joan McAlpine writing in the Record
Eh, it’s what the Yoons read, so is that not a good thing then considering they don’t buy the National because they’re Yoons
Every politician given the chance writes for papers with a different view in order to get their own view across, it’s normal
What’s not normal is politicians particularly the Tory variety who have 4 day a week jobs elsewhere and just turn up at Holyrood for votes and then run away again, or Tory Referees who actually don’t turn up at all because they’re refereeing Rangers matches, then stand for Westminster get elected so’s they can hide much easier down there and nobody will notice and complain about them
So when some folk talk about Bought and sold for Inglish Gold one wonders at how much Kezia Dugdale pays per Tweet or per intervention on websites such as this one as she advertises for people to come and Tweet for Labour and get paid for it
We see those people on a daily basis on the First Ministers Twitter feed trolling away at everything the FM says
A bit like Colin Alexander on WOS coincidentally
Hilarious!
Now the numptie, colin alexander, quotes as a reliable source the, (arguably), most proven unreliable, and anti-SNP, publication in existence. Which in fact also doesn’t quote any actual sources for their claims.
Joan McAlpine is of course a journalist by profession and was acting editor at the Herald for some time. It is a huge benefit that she has a page each week in the Record (as indeed does Nicola Sturgeon and Kezia Dugdale).
Remember guys. Trolling is all about disruption, not debating. The pish they post is chosen as bait to get a response. They are not making points or trying to change opinions, they are here to distract.
It may be that Colin has raised the issue of Ms McAlpine’s
supposed second earnings to deflect attention away from the Sunday Herald’s main story today about Tory MSPs and their second jobs etc.
Trying to tar with the same brush perhaps.
Iain Macwhirter thinks the SNP need to get radical because Labour is a radical party now compared to the SNP. Sadly, Labour’s radicalism stops at Gretna Green.
More of the same ol’, same ol’ from colonial Colonel Sanders of the south.
Your weekend reading – three essays, you lucky people
Wow! Don’t tell Cameron about this: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-hq8
A man for all seasons: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-aYb
From the nation who gave us printing: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-hER
Iain Macwhirter should read the small print.
Labour says they will renationalise the railways when the franchises are due for renewal. That’s exactly what New Labour said. Then, just before the franchises ran out, they announced a “review” which meant that the franchises had to be renewed pending the outcome of the “review”.
I think Mr Darling was Minister of Transport at the time.
@Robert Peffers and the other numpties who reply to uncomfortable facts with insults and abuse:
I’m no the one earning tens of thousands writing for an anti-SNP, rag that spews out pro-Union anti-independence propaganda like a sewer.
“From February 2012 I write a weekly column for the Scottish Daily Record newspaper (of One Central Quay, Glasgow, G3 8DA). I earn £400 per column, a total of £20,000 per annum, for this work. ”
Source: Scottish Parliament Website – Joan McAlpine’s Register of Interests.
I can understand the bile though. Reading my comments must surely be upsetting – especially now you know it’s true.
But don’t shoot the messenger for bringing you facts.
Capella: Why would anybody want to invite Labour back to Scotland to exercise their propensity for corruption, love of the rich, and Tammany Hall politics?
OT
But perhaps forgivable as the “Twelfth” looms. My salute to Orangemen everywhere.
And a touch of R. Burns.
The Ballad of Billy and Jean
Young BIlly left his ain fireside
In Govan by the River Clyde.
Tae Embra toon he took the train
To seek his fortune once again.
Temptations were like poppies spread,
And into every pub he sped,
But in between the beer and wine
He found the time tae chase a quine.
Jean fell for all his Govan wiles,
His ready wit and sleekit smile.
She swithered sair but said “I’ll take him.
A better man I’m sure tae mak him.”
So back tae Govan Bill did wing.
The gladsome news tae all tae bring.
“Oh father, mother, hear ye this,
I’ve found myself an Embra miss!”
But all the mother had to say was
“God! I thocht that ye were gay”.
While rather stood there fair astonished .
T’was clear Bill was to be admonished.
“Whit’s this? An Embra lass you say.
Oh, woe is us! We’ll rue the day.
She’ll smoke and drink and paint her face,
And lead us a’ tae deep disgrace.
I’ve heard about thae Embra fillies,
Enough tae gie a man the willies.
Wi’ wearing shoes and wants claes
And other fancy Papish ways.”
But Bill was filled with courage Dutch.
“Oh, father you have said ower much.
She showed her family tree tae me.
I certify it is Tim-free.
Her Dad attends the Orange Hall
Each Friday night in far Larkhall,
And on the Twelfth they line the route
Tae hear “The Sash” upon his flute”
“Oh son, forgie the way I spoke,
Ye ken the ways o’ Govan folk.
We tarred and feathered Willie’s wife
Because we thocht she cam frae Fife.
But let us see the lass hersel’
Perhaps it a’ will work out well.”
So Jean was brought to Govan fair
Frae Embra toon, t’was something rare.
The locals stared with mouths agape.
“At least”, they said, “she’s no a Pape”
Now, who this tale of truth shall read,
Each man and mother’s son tak heed.
Whenere to wed you are inclined,
And Embra quines run on your mind,
There’s Govan lasses by the dozen,
So bide at hame and wed your cousin.
Colin Alexander: “don’t shoot the messenger for bringing you facts.”
And don’t let facts get in the way of a nation’s right to self-determination.
Yeah, those SNP types should be poverty-stricken, wearing sack cloth and bin liners, a crown of thorns tearing into the scalp, begging on the street, if we’re to take them seriously.
@Robert Peffers
Retraction: “@Robert Peffers and the other numpties”.
Also:
Apology to Robert Peffers. I mistyped. I am not trying to suggest Robert Peffers or anyone else on this website is a numpty.
I meant to suggest it’s wrong to sometimes act like a numpty if told unpalatable truths, but I am not suggesting that any person is actually a numpty.
I am not on this website to insult anyone, only to make justifiable criticisms and have discussions of a political nature.
First they ignore you,
Then they they laugh at you,
Then they fight you….
Then you win = )
( Thankyou Ghandi x )
If this is the unionist press, twitter twitts and Miss Absurd Colonel Davidson’s idea of fighting…yeesh.
NOT Highland Highland Spring is still and for everymore off the shoppinng list. Not least because of their of unappology and treating their clients like numpties. Am saving a wee fortune 🙂 Their unpleasant dreich wee cloud did however still have a silver lining!
Thank you Mr Montgomery, you’ve helped me save a fair bob or two. Kind of you to show your hand.
As for our Gish Gallopers = ) Cute ain’t they? Thank goodness they are only let out on shifts, the poor wee souls would be flagging in no time.
Hey there Scotland ! Doing well = )
Aye, an’ the ither yin’s goat bells oan it!
@colin alexander says: 9 July, 2017 at 1:14 am:
“In my opinion a pro-independence person should not be writing for this enemy of independence.”
You do talk a right load of utter pish, colin.
Every person who writes for any publication will inevitably have their own personal political allegiance and thus there would be no political news if no one with political allegiance was barred from writing political commentary.
Do you perhaps imagine that, for example, Stephen Daisley should be banned from writing political commentary because of his quite obvious political bias?
Not to mention that your obvious anti-SNP bias should, by your own criteria, bar you from commenting on political matters on a pro-Scottish independence open forum.
Pacman
Colonel Gadaftie’s vision for Scotland is for it to be totally run by England – so she disnae need ony policies!
@ Fireproofjim 10.34am
Very very clever!
LOL 🙂
If I may comment about Highland Spring, despite everyone else having moved on.
I stopped buying it some years ago for two reasons. Firstly ‘no trace of a foreign accent’ seemed distinctly wrong, and secondly I believe their base is well to the south of the Highland Boundary fault.
Now if Mr Montgomery were to publicly criticise the MSM and push the truth into the open, I will reconsider.
@ galam – do you know of ‘fragging’?
@Dr Jim
You can get paid for criticising the SNP online? Blimey! Can you send me the details please. Talk about easy money.
I’m on here getting slagged for nowt. Might as well get paid to take the abuse (thinking).
Nah, Kezia can keep her money. My support can’t be bought. My support for independence can’t be bought off either.
The Daily Record can stick their money too. I wouldn’t write for them and would not encourage anyone to buy that filthy rag either.
But then again, I’m no a “professional” politician.
Sackcloth and ashes, scraping by if earning £61k a year? If someone cannae live on that without claiming to need second and third jobs then their no fit to be running a country.
So much for the Scottish Parliament is better. We’r superior, no like snouts in the trough Westminster troughers.
Many Scottish MSPs are just as bad or worse. Raking in the dosh on side earners and often those other jobs are because they are a politician.
The SNP are supposed to be better than the Unionist career politicians. Politicians elected for the cause of Scottish independence.
Disnae stop them doing the exact same – jobs on the side – behaviour, including taking the Unionist’s coin.
And don’t tell me taking the Unionist’s coin does not influence a person. That’s mince.
Money buys influence.
Three gems off the radio this morning:
The Government has been accused of bribery over the DUP bung and is being taken to court by a crowd-funded QC, who has aced that the case be held as soon as possible.
His argument is that ‘a confidence and supply agreement is perfectly legal i.e. we’ll agree to back your ideas when you need our vote, but the minute any money changed hands it is blatant bribery’. He’s confident that it is straightforward bribery.
then this gem;
The claimant also believes that the Tory government has breached the terms of the Good Friday Agreement – ‘it is an International Treaty and because of that, any citizen has the right to expect it’s government to act impartially in an International Treaty’.
Is there not something in that argument for us re the Treaty of Union. Can we find any examples where the UK government has behaved impartially against the Scottish Government???
and finally:
The Irish Government has said that the future of the border between North and South Ireland is crucial, so much so that it has said (asked? not sure which) that it is time for Sinn Fein to take up their seats at Westminster!
Things just got a whole lot more uncomfortable for T May and tRuthless… but we’ll have to act fast to stop their imminent dealing with Trump
And don’t tell me taking the Unionist’s coin does not influence a person. That’s mince.
Money buys influence.
What planet do guys like you live on Colin?
If Daily Record dingdongs offered me 20 grand for a few paragraphs in their ghastly organ…
Easy money.
Interestingly, I notice that the legal challenge to the dUP deal is headlining on the bBC N.Ireland page but on no other part o the BBC news website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/northern_ireland
@Robbo says: 9 July, 2017 at 9:03 am:
“Don’t ken how to embed it here.Sure Stu will cover it.”
It is really easy to post links for on-line stuff, Robbo:-
If you go to the top of the page of the browser you are using the website address is in there in the address bar.
Highlight it and then press the ctrl and c keys on your keyboard together. This cuts the link to the computer’s clipboard.
Then, in the comment you are posting on Wings, (or anywhere else), you place your cursor where you want to post the link and press the ctrl and V keys on your keyboard together.
This pastes the link from the clipboard to where your cursor is situated in your wings comment.
That’s how to Cut & Paste anything including pictures, tunes and even YouTube items.
However, and just for YouTube items, you must remove the https:// part of the pasted link. The Wings blog will replace that bit of YouTube links when the comment appears in the blog.
Here’s a YouTube link I copies & pasted that way:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9K_hMsrwRA
Meg @11:04.
Re the Treaty. I am also becoming more convinced that we should be approaching the UN asking them to free Scotland from colonial rule. Fight Westminster on all fronts when they are occupied trying to fudge the Brexit issue.
Gishers are right cute = )
Gotta love em and their efforts 🙂
Rev Stu, well done you for providing the livlihood of folk who might otherwise be struggling.
On a more serious note, thank you Rev Stu for yet another brilliant expose (acent acute). Vive l’alliance vieux etc = )
@ Grouse Beater – I suspect the Westminster Establishment will try to sell Labour in Scotland as a means of getting rid of more SNP MPs. Then they can declare that Independence is dead.
Many Scottish people, like myself, are socialist. But some of us realise that the Labour Party of GB may have socialists in it, may even be led by a socialist, but it will never again deliver socialist polices. The Establishment have learned how to neutralise any genuine left leaning social democratic party interfering with neo-liberalism. They think.
The SNP has proved to be a more awkward fish to angle. We have become immune to the false hope of a socialist paradise in UK.
Most of us would be content with a decent caring society that rewarded work and protected the vulnerable.
Meg merrilees @ 11.20 am
Challenge to DUP/Tory deal headlining on bBC NI but not on EBBC.
Funny that Meg…
Just to keep it personal Colin, because you gits love that. My Slovenian girlfriend and UKOK Ljubljana branch manager also likes second job dosh
‘Adam Tomkins, the Shadow Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, Communities, Social Security and Equalities, makes up to £35,000 a year as a Glasgow University professor, a second job that takes up one and a half days a week, he says. He also declares around £1,000 per annum as a twice-yearly conference delegate for Liberty Fund, a private education foundation.’
Must be true, its in the Herald. Not surprised to see Glasgow uni Law Prof’s only work a day and a half a week either.
Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
ScotConservatives?Verified account @ScotTories Jun 28
It’s time Scotland had a government committed to the day job and that’s the offer we will take to the country:
Tis true. She’s also a really good kisser.
archive is blocked on this PC, why, IT dept?
Anyhoo, Herald thing also says,
“Alexander Burnett, the party’s Business, Innovation and Energy spokesman, declared that he anticipated withdrawing up to £120,000 in “personal remuneration” as owner of AJA Burnett Estate last year. He has estimated that he will spend up to one day a month on the role. If he received £120,000 for working 12 days a year, Burnett could make around £10,000 a day.
He also receives a “basic salary” of £6,120 a year for being Director and Chairman of North Banchory Company Limited.
Donald Cameron, the shadow Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change, Environment, Land Reform, declares up to £50,000 for two non-executive directorships. His time commitment is five board meetings a year for each company (each meeting lasts half a day).”
Tasty.
But Herald liggers are rather downplaying just how much of a filthy rich tory toff Alexander Burnett really is. And he laid on that bunker on his estate that last vote tory Teresa Scotland campaign was hidden away in too.
O/T
For the want of something to read on Sunday I broke my resolution and bought a Sunday Herald again. Can I get my money back? It would be better titled the “Paul Hutcheon mostly attacking the SNP paper” with no evident support for independence at all and even Macwhirter stating independence is off the agenda.
Somebody was arguing with me that it was trying to attract a wide readership. We don’t need to attract a wide readership. We need a newspaper that espouses independence to a very large section of the population looking for good reasons to support that journey
Capella at 11.40
Agree with most of your post but most Scottish people are not socialist and never have been
@Dave McEwan Hill
@Capella
Socialism means different things to different people. Wiki puts it well …
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
” There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them. Social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms. “
For me it means public ownership of the production of food and consumer goods among other things. I don’t consider my self socialist because I don’t agree with that. That’s how I view it, others may shift the definition of socialism on the spectrum.
I do think essential national infrastructure should be publically owned … rail, roads, energy, water. That however, is just mainstream European thinking. What sort of two bit half arsed country sells off its railways, electrical network and water?!
Of course if you are a Tory, wanting such essential services in public ownership IS rampant socialism. I disagree.
We sometimes forget just how rightwing the UK is. Europeans see it as a Trojan Horse for America. A place where alien trans Atlantic politics and culture has been allowed to take hold.
The Tories are far right. They associate with the far right in the EU parliament. It is possible to be to the left of the Tory position and still be right of centre!
According to the Political Compass, I am with Ghandi.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
@colin alexander says: 9 July, 2017 at 10:29 am:
“@Robert Peffers and the other numpties who reply to uncomfortable facts with insults and abuse:”
Uncomfortable for who? Just who might that be, colin?
What exactly is abusive about it – in your personal view, of course?
You post on Wings, you are trolling like mad and offering nothing but personal opinions and you use other people’s personal opinions and claimed them as proof. You never make any reasoned arguments based upon logic or actual facts.
Your obvious intention is to criticise and belittle the SNP but you never make a reasoned and logical argument to back up whatever it is you perceive to be a fault.
That, colin, is the ultimate in abuse and if it hurts your feelings to be called a numptie who talks utter pish then don’t act like a numptie who talks utter pish.
You will be treated with respect when you show some respect.
Make reasoned and logical points and you will be listened to and treated with respect – until then you remain a numptie and a troll and will be treated as such.
The Sunday Herald article appears to be called the £10k a day Tories and lists a hefty number of their Holyrood contingent. I am not sure Joan picking up £380 a week from the Record for writing a column is quite in the same category. Many politicians of all stripes write, it is an easy thing for them to do in conjunction with all the other stuff they write and it is often an adjunct to explaining policy and getting a critical overview of issues of the day out to audience their party wants to reach. However, some of these people seem to have actual other jobs that require them to be there when they should be doing the job they were elected to do.
That said the fewer Tories in Holyrood the better as far as I am concerned 🙂
@colin alexander, just for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8NPPEms54
Gordon Brewer handed his arse twice on Sunday Politics today.
Ist time by Keith Brown, then by lass from The National.
Brewer, desperately tried to talk about independence timing/plan for indy Scotland, Keith Brown not having it, tells him..”we will tell you when the time is right”
Tries again with The National lass…gets told “keith is right not to talk about independence right now”.
Thats what everyone wanted, a break from it, so now the SNP have done that, the media are being shown up as having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else.
Brewer beeelin’ !!
The future status of UK influence, is clear for all to see.
https://mobile.twitter.com/taxbod/status/883423228823252994/photo/1
@ galamcennalath @ DMH – I regard socialism as centre left. GB Shaw once commented on people who criticise socialism as they drive along their socialist roads and send their children to socialist schools – and could have added get their illness treated in our socialist health service.
Scotland overwhelmingly voted Labour for almost all of my lifetime which suggests to me that the majority favour centre left policies. The fact that New Labour had become neo-liberal was not immediately obvious. But it is now.
Centre left policies are what the SNP have been offering for a decade with great electoral success.
Socialism:
I don’t know what that means to people today but I do remember what the results of it were in Scotland when it used to exist as what I remember
And those results were horrendous!
The flat cap corrupt Socialism of my youth run by the Labour party in Scotland may have destroyed all eventuality of it ever happening again, so thank God for that at least
Very many young people see and hear Jeremy Corbyn espousing all these very same old value slogans I heard as a young man from Labour parties who when they gained power immediately reneged on every one of those values because they knew they were undeliverable then and Mr Corbyn knows perfectly well are undeliverable now
When you’re in opposition it’s all very easy and lovely to spout anything you want because you don’t have to worry about the delivery of the Pish you talk and Mr Corbyn knows that too he’s been doing it for thirty years and probably still has the same cap badge to prove it plus a new audience who’ve never heard this tune before, but I can assure them it’s a reissue of the red flag but with some rapping thrown in
For what it’s worth I believe the guy’s a fraud and total charlatan who’s enjoying his moment in the political sun before he’s found out by the electorate, the worry is when will he be found out, before or after he pulls off his momentous con, for me I certainly hope it’s before
Scotland has no meaning or significance to Jeremy Corbyn it’s a far away from London cold place he doesn’t want to have to think about let alone go to, so those folk holding out better settlement deals or more devolution or indeed anything from Mr Corbyn should contemplate a wee bit more deeply what they think they might be getting if they lend their vote to this man, in my honest opinion what you’ll do is herald in a whole brand new old era of the stuff that took us forty years to get rid of because it was and is corruption at the highest level from dare I say it just as bad a shower of cretins as the Tories, except the Tories do it differently
Imperialism by the British isn’t Blue coloured it’s Red as well and if you count the Liberal Democrats they’ll pick any colour you like as long as its the winner, but what none of these parties will do is pick Scotlands colour….. EVER!
So that I believe is your choice Imperial Britain meaning Englands choice or choose… Scotland!
Our wonderful media are spinning like mad over the drawn Lions v All Blacks series as if it is some sort of Triumph Of The Lions.
Let’s get the facts right:-
Game 1 – All Blacks stuffed The Lions.
Game 2 – Lions scraped through to a win against 14 men and the All Blacks kicker had an off day. The All Blacks would have won if he had made his kicks.
Game 3 – All Blacks – 2 tries – Lions none. Again if the All Blacks kicker had made his kicks they would have won easily. Even then they were robbed at the end when the ref changed a kickable penalty to a scrum.
Some Triumph Of The Lions – a jammy drawn series and it looks as if it is going to be e re-run of the England 1966 World Cup.
OT –
So was it those brain-dead working classes who put Trump into power?
http://archive.is/Xn3kd
@colin alexander says: 9 July, 2017 at 10:38 am:
” … I am not on this website to insult anyone, only to make justifiable criticisms and have discussions of a political nature.”
May one respectively enquire just when you intend to, “make justifiable criticisms and have discussions of a political nature”
As I already stated, to quote a rabid, well know, anti-SNP dead tree press rag that actually did not offer any reasonable facts as a source of real facts is hardly a reasonable source of facts.
Neither is the argument that a well known professional journalist is somehow contemptible for plying their trade in a newspaper simply because they are also involved in politics. No one is unbiased in regards to politics because politics affects us all. It is actually a healthy sign that a party in government contains elected members from every walk in life.
Put it this way – what you are offering as reasoned political argument is that only professional politicians should be elected as politicians. No other profession or other employment should be allowed.
God save us all from career politicians.
For example Kier Hardie was a miner and as for Jeremey Corbyn, after school, he did voluntary work for two years in Jamaica with the VSO. Then back in the UK, he worked for trade unions, and became a councillor in the London borough of Haringey before being elected as the Labour MP for Islington North in 1983.
Spot the difference? Most more recent Prime Ministers were all right out of further education and into politics as a career.
Mr Peffers that link is a great demonstration of Neanderthal thinking – in fact I know I aminsulting Neanderthals!
Greetings from sweaty hot Mallorca to all you defenders of S otland!
Scandinavia is socialist and they seem to do ok.
British socialism is heavily infiltrated with tories and has been since WW2. Bomber Blair, Crash Gordon, Flipper Darling and chums were merely next gen Lab dudes like Healey and Ben.
Tories have found it very easy to infiltrate the British left, probably because of the British class system, we kowtow to posh people, from the queen down or up.
Infiltration by the tories and uk spooks into lefty politics is not exactly news but its also quite easy to scope too.
https://twitter.com/ProfScottThinks
None of these schlubs have ever got their hands dirty, actually working for a living and yet…
Capella says:
Which would be to the right of where I would place socialism. But it’s a vague word with people viewing it differently. Having public roads, education, and indeed healthcare isn’t socialism to me, just a sensible way to run a modern European democracy.
Indeed, and the label socialist is never used for the SNP other than perhaps by the far right.
Dr Jim says:
Were they corrupt because they claimed to be socialists, or were they corrupt because the FPTP voting system used everywhere at all administrative levels allowed them to gain too much power with no accountability?
The Labour Party in the 40s nationalised what should have been in public ownership IMO. And the NHS systems were a master stroke. It’s also worth noting that for the following 30 years various Tory governments, who you might have considered right of centre, never contemplated undoing any of Labour’s changes.
These measures weren’t socialism as such, IMO. Just normal common sense thinking.
I very much doubt if Corbyn is even left of centre. England now is way out on the right in so much of its thinking. Labour’s advances are popularism, the vague hope for many that some Messiah will deliver them from the mess.
@Heedtracker well done on your internationalist outlook on life and personal relationships. Destroying the Unionist dlur that pro-independence for Scotland means a person is insular and racist.
As we all know, no organisation or cause is perfect. Every cause has it’s rotten apples, but the racists seem to flock around the Union Flag. Though I’m not suggesting all Unionists are racists or right wing extremists. There are some Unionists who are must also be sickened by the racist and xenophobic types that espouse Unionism.
Well done too on getting a gf that’s a good kisser. Make love, not war.
And good you mention that many Tory MSPs are troughers that are far outdoing what the SNP troughers are achieving on jobs on the side.
I had mentioned that too, but on here that’s missed because I dare mention the SNP ones that are similar.
I support independence, not the SNP. They are not the same thing. I am an EX-member of the SNP, so am free to criticise them.That’s not being anti-independence.
On the contrary I criticise the SNP when I believe they are failing the independence cause by prioritising personal gain, personal prestige and putting their SNP political careers as administrators or devolution and Westminster govt ahead of furthering the cause of Scottish independence.
The Labour party were founded to ward of communism which threatened the British Establishment after WW1 and the loss of Ireland. It kept the bench’s warm during times of threat to the Tories. A Compliant Media put the Labour Party in place at the end of WW2 to introduce the Welfare State, this was to appease the Armies of trained fighting men returning from the war, to make them feel they had fought for something worthwhile. This Generation is now dying off and the Establishment feel its safe to scrap the Welfare State. Look past Corbyn take a good long look of the Labour MP,s in Westminster you will be hard pushed to find a socialist among them.
*Looks in… goes back on holiday*
Colonel Blimp can go pop hersel.
I’ll still be boycotting Highland Spring.
The SNHS is an excellent example of socialism in practice. Paid for from general taxation and free at the point of use regardless of your income or status. The SNP government are fiercly defending it in the face of pressure to privatise in the way the ENHS is being privatised.
They defend free higher education in the face of pressure to introduce tuition fees. They abolished prescription charges, bridge tolls, tuition fees and oppose the public sector pay cap, benefit cuts, pension cuts and diversion of public funds to nuclear weapons.
Investing in education, health, social security and public transport infrastructure is socialism in action. As long as people vote for it then what is wrong with that? I only wish it could be extended to all socially useful infrastructure such as energy and telecomms. Private monopolies of these essential services are disastrous IMO.
You’re doing it again @Colin Alexander by suggesting the SNP would fail the cause of Independence when they are in fact the vehicle and drive and political movement of that cause
Without the SNP there will be no Independence ever and that’s why every opponent of Independence criticizes them so much in the hope some of the muck they throw sticks both left and right opponents but Unionists all
The SNP are saddled with their own success and are also stuck with having to do all the roles at once, competent Government and opposition simultaneously, whilst at the same time steering the non ideological course of left centralism which is the statistical preferred political preference of Scottish voters
Criticism is always easy to find and level against anybody but one would have thought there are far more important targets for that criticism than the folk who have spent their entire lives in many cases fighting for one ideal, that being their country and not for any British elevation as follows every other political party
colin alexander says
Thanks for your comments but does having a column in the DR, as an SNP MSP, at £20k a year, make you a trougher Colin?
Scotland vote Naw Thanks bearly 3 years ago Colin. Its worth pointing that out because it would be interesting to hear you explain why you still feel the need to get stuck in and put us all off, or rather convince us to vote Naw Thanks, again.
But you wont.
Its the oldest trick in the book, from strikes to Scottish nation statehood Colin, gimps like you creeping about, lying, smearing, agent provocateuring, seeding doubt etc.
“I’m one of you, on your side, youre all so great, but I think we should just give up.”
“Yeah Colin’s right, they’re all the same, its hopeless…”
Its what the BBC Scotland creep show does to Scots, every hour of every BBC day. So christ knows what and why you think you can make a Naw Thanks impact Colin.
All to protect the class that really does own everything around us.
You must be so proud of yourself Colin.
https://www.ft.com/content/d5efd3a0-b32f-11e6-a37c-f4a01f1b0fa1?mhq5j=e3
Capella says:
I agree completely. I just see that as mainstream centrist European politics, not socialism. As countries across Europe swing back and forth across the centre, these stay constant. Publically owned services are the norm, even as right of centre parties take office. That was the case across the UK until the 80s.
Yes, I would agree with that. Having a totally tax funded Public Health Service is an achievement most western countries haven’t managed. As a policy it is much further to the left than most Europeans have. Again, though, the Tories of the 50-70s supported the NHS with no suggestions of privatising.
The Tories now are completely off the scale. As someone pointed out recently their recent manifesto was to the right of old BNP ones!
On other things, Europeans seem ahead of us. In the UK state pensions are a third average income. The EU average is half, and the best are two thirds. The UK’s attitudes (like in so many things) on pensions are further to the right than most.
@ Capella
Nice nutshell of current situation. If Scotland had become independent in the 70s and the oil had been used for the benefit of its people, rather than frittered away, we would, I’m sure, be living in a very different Scotland where the universality of the welfare state would be protected and assured.
Over the last week or so I’ve been speaking to some ex-Labour folk who still don’t trust the SNP but are now firm Yessers. I can tell they still yearn for the ‘good old days’ when Labour Big Beasts strode the land. Unless it wears a red tie and sports a significant pot-belly they remain skeptical.
Sadly the Scottish Cringe is still with us with the “we’re aw doomed” merchants filled with self-hatred and cowardice still doing down Scotland. The anti-Scottish media will continue its pernicious propaganda, indeed it will likely increase its britnat hysteria. The reason for that is obvious: they know independence is on the way. Take cheer from that alone.
Also we have the britnat brexit farce to enjoy for months to come. A joy to watch britnats destroying their so-called united kingdom.
geeo at 12.50
“Thats what everyone wanted, a break from it,”
Sorry, but that’s the point. Everybody DIDN’T want a break from it
100,000 people joined the SNP because they DIDN’T want a break from it. They wanted a continuous campaign for independence starting the next day and going on till we got there.
The unionists wanted a break from it as they knew they were going to lose and they have, by their control of the media, managed to run this nonsense till it has become accepted as truth.
Sadly quite few folk have swallowed it and in my opinion the SNP should have started an independence campaign when we had 125,000 members,56 MPs and our opposition on the run. We marched them up to the top of the hill and we marched them down again. The SNP hasn’t campaigned for independence and wonders why support for it has stalled. Eh?
The SNP hasn’t campaigned for independence and wonders why support for it has stalled. Eh?
They have to abide by the 2014 ref decision of Naw Thanks.
You’re a bit vague, on purpose, as to what they were supposed to campaign on anyway. How could YES spring up again, against the democratic will of the people of Scotland. Sure over 100,000 people joined the SNP immediatly after and they’ve not left either. People clearly rationalise correctly that the owners of TeamGB just will not allow Scotland to become a self governing nation state. Its how it works here.
The only way to nation statehood is the long, longer way, maybe. Clearly our imperial masterbaiters are terrified of ref2 but that’s probably down to something similar happening in ref2 as what happen with Brexit.
The big test now is Brexit. Does it justify ref2 in Scotland, do Scots want to stay a region of and in Brexit UK or become an EU member nation state?
That’s far more powerful and legitimate grounds for indyref2 than, we lost, so lets try again, because a lot of people just joined the SNP.
Brexit may well all be scrapped or fudged really. Vince Cable said Brexit may never happen anyway on the Marr Show this morning.
@ Galacennalath – I think we basically agree. Only the terminology is problematic.
The right wing may have succeeded in making socialism a bad word. But I prefer to use it in context.
In democracies it is quite normal to have socialist parties. France has a socialist upper and lower house and until recently also had a socialist president. Only in the UK and USA is socialism a taboo word. Yet even in the USA, Bernie Sanders gained wide support while openly referring to himself as a socialist.
Just shows you can only fool all of the people some of the time.
@ The Dog Philosopher – I’m a relatively new member of the SNP (post 2014 referendum) but I think their electoral fortunes changed when Alex Salmond changed the direction of the party to centre-left. That’s where the votes in Scotland are and SLab abandoned that ground when they became Blairite.
SLab are still resisting Jeremy Corbyn’s efforts to shift the party left. Which is why few voters in Scotland will vote for them. But there is the danger they will see the light and shift left. Kezia will probably have to go though. Then Neil Findlay can take the floor.
But I don’t see the SNP giving up the left ground any time soon. Nicola has still to abolish the House of Lords!
@heedtracker
Why are we still wasting time talking about the SNP anyway? The SP mandate for an indyref has been won. That should have been day 1 of the YES campaign.
Where is it?
What should the SNP do? Stop talking pish about getting rid of Trident and other non-achievable nonsense as kings of devolution. Let all their overpaid quango bosses do what they are supposed to do: run Scotland’s public and quango services.
The politicians don’t run them.
The politicians should have a credible economic policy for indy Scotland and let the people of independent Scotland decide everything else once independent.
Any indy White Paper should should only contain an economic starting point. Nothing else.
It should be out already being scrutinised by pro-indy and pro-unionists. Scrutinised by all and sundry over and over again. A plan is rarely perfect, so can always be refined and improved.
Just two things should be promoted:
1.Voters will be better off by voting YES.
Their income, Health and welfare services will be better in an independent Scotland.
2.Scotland gets a raw deal as part of the Union, democratically. A YES vote will make government more accountable and fairer as any governments will be elected proportionally.
Watched the bbc -brewer asking a fat cat business man- what Scotland’s main problem is. Indy Indy Indy says he.– BREXIT didnt cross his mind. They are scared to talk brexit. We should.
Having said that we also need to show potential voters our 13, 14, 15 old’s that independence and self determination is a natural state. We need to show that Scotland doesn’t need to go to war because London tells us or that we need to spend billions on nuclear weapons that are an abhorance. We need to repeat again that we are radical in wishing to reduce poverty, in generating jobs. Lets march up the hill– the view is better and let the bitter unionists show up the absence of hope and honesty in their utterances.
Lets gather around events that support our history and our future. Events such as St Columba arrives from Ireland to Argyll to found a monastery on the Island of Iona.
685: Battle of Nechtansmere; the Picts defeated the Angles and won the southern border.
843: Kenneth MacAlpin unites the Scots and Picts as one nation under his rule.
1018: The Battle of Carham. The Scots defeated the Anglo-Saxons
1263: The Battle of Largs. The Scots defeat Haaken of Norway and obtain the Hebrides.— Some of my mates are going to that event displaying the saltire proudly.
We have so much history that we don’t make use of. Any other events to be planned for 2017 onwards?
I know how I felt being part of the recent Glasgow event. It shows positivity.
Sorry, Dave M Hill, but that is just nonsense.
After the 2014 NO vote, we got those 100,000 members and 56 MP’s WITHIN LESS than one year.
The ONLY road to independence at that point would have been UDI, and that would have been laughed out the UN so soon after a referendum.
Brewer was utterly lost today without being able to bang the referendum drum.
Nicola has forced them to talk about other things when the SNP politicians are on, and without constantly being on the defensive from vitriolic pish being thrown at them, they have been able to throw the ball back by highlighting uk gov behaviour and the negative effect that causes Scotland.
There appears to be less SNP guests on tv these days, that speaks volumes about the nulling effect Nicola’s strategy has had.
I am finding it easier getting the positive Yes message out since Nicola’s speech.
People, without the latest anti indy scare story to thow out lazily, appear more willing to at least listen to what i tell them.
I have even thrown in, after making a point, “have you notice how the media do not mention that much any more, makes you wonder if they were (previously) just being anti SNP/INDEPENDENCE without listening to the argument, also, have you noticed how pro tory the media is, they hate Corbyn and the SNP passionately, so why would a non tory trust a word they say without question” ?
This is playing well for me with soft No’s from last time, and many are now firm Yes, and seem willing to talk to friends and family who voted No.
@geeo
Great stuff, what Keith Brown did is exactly what the SNP need to do for the next couple of months at least – refuse to talk about Indy Ref 2. And Independence itself perhaps, until they’re ready with whatever it is they’re planning to do.
You can still have the likes of Alex Salmond shooting his mouth off – it’s exactly what he should do as well, specially now he’s not even an MP – “Former FM Salmond says …”.
Yeah, keep the MSM rattled and confused. Confusion to ones enemies!
My guess is many of us don’t know what a colonel is in the British Army (let alone an honorary one). Probably think it’s like the Yank ones we see on films ‘n that, being renegade and doing heroic stuff, being the 7th Cavalry. So here it is from the British Army itself:
http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/32321.aspx
“Colonel
Colonels are not usually field commanders (except in the Royal Army Medical Corps) – typically they serve as staff officers between field commands at battalion/brigade level. It is the lowest of the staff ranks and they are the principal operational advisors to senior officers.”
@colin alexander
It’s a problem attacking the SNP, or any pro-indy movement. It makes people seem as though they’re under a false flag, pretending to support Indy while undermining it. A “troll”.
Yet criticism is good if it’s constructive, and to reach those the YES movement hasn’t reached requires some empathy – and this means being open and honest, as in “Yeah, the SNP aren’t perfect”. I don’t personally think Joahn McAlpine is a good example for the second job money angle, as though she does earn money as a columnist for the Record – she also gets some pro-Indy and pro-Indy coverage in a generally unionist paper. Much like Salmond getting across on LBC.
I’m a member of the SNP, joined after the Indy Ref. But probably won’t renew in September, as I prefer being non-alinged, and think I can be more effective – even for the SNP itself. I too am critical of the SNP at times, and because they’re closest to my opinions generally, more critical of them than I would be of the Tories with whom I have as much in common as I would have with RISE. And, for the moment, elections are over thank goodness.
Just two things should be promoted:
1.Voters will be better off by voting YES.
2.Scotland gets a raw deal as part of the Union,
If that’s all you want, getting our extraordinary wonderful Scotland back from our red and blue tory chums in England and into the world, youre really not getting what Scottish nation statehood really means.
We just got stripped of our EU citizenship, by another country. Its a far far bigger deal than say BBC attack propagandists in Pacific Quay want Scotland to discuss.
Losing our EU citizenship is just the latest act of colonialist bullshit, in over 300 years of colonial rule. Scotland’s probably lost half a trillion quid in Scots oil and gas revenues alone.
Before that, Scottish industrial decline has been ongoing, forced, unmanaged since WW1 at the beginning of the end of the actual British Empire.
Its probably going to take longer than all of us YESers really want. Norway’s a very rich successful country but its been a centre left nation since early 20th C.
If BBC Scotland led tories can get the SNP out of Holyrood, that’s it all over for at least another 30 years. As FM Dugdale’s and Colonel Ruth’s set about everything that makes Scotland and Scots want their country back.
Underlying all of the possible timelines for Scotland as a nation state, neighbouring very tory England, is the great threat that is to the actual political and power make up of England.
Successful, prospering, PR democratic nation state EU member Scotland, that left the English, to escape tory rule, red and blue…its never going to happen, is it?
That’s your real 21st century headline.
Personally I’m not sure what to think about the SNP mentioning or not mentioning indyref2. On the one hand maybe it’s a smart move, on the other what else are the Scottish National party supposed to talk about and push for?
Hopefully better minds than mine have got it sussed.
There’s a definite upswing in people on here talking about approaching the UN or something similar about the outright, glaring imbalance and anti-Scottish bias in the media here. Would be great if people started formulating ideas for ACTION. How about starting with a petition to Holyrood and/or Westminster? Obviously the petition, in and of itself, would change absolutely nothing, even if it attracted a huge number of signatures, but it WOULD serve to highlight the situation and start to focus more minds on it.
Within the accompanying text on the signing page you could have links to clear examples of said bias and propaganda, much of which will have been saved as screenshots or whatever. Then, with it having been RT’d all over the place, links to it placed frequently on all pro indy sites etc, once you had an impressive enough number of signatures somebody such as Peat Worrier could be approached and asked for advice about the next legal step, or he could probably point in the direction of someone or something that could be willing to help and start moving things forward.
Any suggestions?
@Dorothy Devine says: 9 July, 2017 at 1:15 pm:
“Mr Peffers that link is a great demonstration of Neanderthal thinking.”
Isn’t it just. Rather like the Scottish OO attitudes to their marching season. It doesn’t matter that they inconvenience cities, towns and villages all across Scotland for in their minds it is their traditions to march where they choose no matter who it upsets or inconveniences.
I had a couple of neighbours, both now long dead, one was a very quiet living and gentle RC and the other the complete opposite.
The guy who was in the OO would, at every opportunity, drive his car, with the windows open and flute band music playing very, very loudly, back and forward past the quiet man’s house.
The point was that although I never ever heard the RC guy complain there was another 18 homes also being subjected to that loud music and often at rather inconvenient times.
I know some of the other parents with younger children did complain about it. Only to be met with the answer that it was every Protestants duty to suppress, “The Papists”.
I hold no brief for any religion, or sect thereof, but I considered the bad behaviour was well out of order.
Anyway, enjoy the hot weather for the first signs of the coming Winter are here already.
The Wee Papillion Bitch seems to have already began to shed her Summer coat. Mind you, for some unknown reason. her Summer coat was far thicker than usual this year.
@heedtracker Never say never.
Scotland has never been Strong at Westminster, even with 56 out of 59 MPs being SNP MPs she was 100% weak. Scotland will never be strong at Westminster playing by Westminster rules.
On here, away from reality, independence is the simple answer for many: We’ll just hold another indyref and the majority will just vote YES this time, cos I believe it’s the best answer for Scotland.
If it’s that simple even the SNP would have tried to hold another indyref already.
Why haven’t they? They don’t believe they would win an indyref. Simple as that. They don’t to lose again by an even bigger margin if there is a time.
Even Stu has gone back to highlighting Unionist propaganda from the MSM rather than discuss the SNP / independence / Scottish sovereignty. That’s his prerogative; it’s his site.
The SNP don’t believe they could win an indyref.
They can’t drop independence, as they are a dead party walking if they do.
What do they do?
They do what they are best at doing. Nothing much. Sit tight and hope for the best. Kings of devolution.
You can see what they are doing: stringing YESSERS along with the idea that there could be another indyref.
Any suggestions?
Yes, just don’t watch BBC Scotland.
Its all for yoon culture anyway.
All that’s interesting about the whole tory BBC Scotland get the SNP stuff is, can it work.
It may in fact actually work too. It usually does.
Look at Jeremy Corbyn:D
They have until 2021, both BBC Scotland who are unaccountable and the SNP, who are.
That’s your headline battle, for the next few years in Scotland.
It really is a fight to the death.
Just read an on-line text report that a mental Health worker is to legally challenge the United Kingdom government’s deal with the DUP.
Ciaran McClean, who is a Member of the Green Party says the pct breaches , “The Good Friday Agreement”, and, “The Bribery Act”.
A former government lawyer said the bribery claim was, “spurious”. Now it very well may be that the courts will, as usual, side with the government but it is yet another delay on the road to a UKexit. It would be quite laughable if the case was thrown out by the English or (cough!). United Kingdom Supreme Court and was then taken to the High Court of Scotland by the SG or the SNP as a party and delayed even further.
colin alexander says:
9 July, 2017 at 5:07 pm
@heedtracker Never say never.
But that’s what youre saying Colin.
Such is the odd world of yoon culture in Scotland.
All of that waffle you just posted can be rebutted quite easily with,
Why has yoon culture gone apeshit to stop indyref2 Colin?
and
Why has yoon culture gone apeshit to stop indyref2, without even bothering with the probably indy Scotland outcome?
Just answered my own conundrum Colin:D
Excellent article from Peter A Bell. Might interest some on here.
http://indyref2.scot/where-we-are
Water… Scotland’s rainwater.
Yeah, I’ll take it from my tap, though due to the necessary manufacturing process treatments, I reckon it’s best to filter at HOME once more again, just for sureity (it’s a lang way from the source tae the tip of yer faucet.)
I tried out a suggestion another Winger made recently, whereby ye fill up two big jugs (open) with tap water, then leave overnight and let anything disperse within it that needs to.
C’est vrai! The wise Winger was right. Not a scent of flavour. From that ‘preparation stage’, then decant in to a water filter jug, pour yerself a glass of water, then voila, drink and enjoy 😉
Should you choose to further filter or not, here’s a wee helpful suggestion… be sure to clean the inside of your taps now and again, as stuff can gather there over time. You can use an old toothbrush for it, that does the trick. Give it a go the now, you might get a fright!
Now, how do you drink yours…
Chilled, tap or room temperature?
They LGBT folks know how tae get a message across lol, well done People .
http://www.facebook.com/st3phenbloomer/posts/10154512040297016
ronnie anderson says:
9 July, 2017 at 5:44 pm
They LGBT folks know how tae get a message across lol, well done People
There is a lot to be learned from people trying to change the world. In the USA, gay marriage was ofcourse opposed by much the same tory world that we have to endure here.
Then they changed gay marriage to, marriage equality. Opposition was nullified.
We have some cunning linguists in Scotland too.
Served 40 years in Her Majesty’s Special Constabluary, seen it all, done it all, can I perhaps be nominated for an honorary Super, or perhaps Cheif Constable.
@heedtracker
A Unionist is someone who prefers the Union to independence. I voted YES, I would again. Therefore, I am not a Unionist.
colin alexander says:
9 July, 2017 at 6:13 pm
@heedtracker
A Unionist is someone who prefers the Union to independence. I voted YES, I would again. Therefore, I am not a Unionist.
Why r U a YES vote Colin?
Other than,
1.Voters will be better off by voting YES.
2.Scotland gets a raw deal as part of the Union,
Brexit will win us our Independence
The rotund Tory on Sunday Politics …..he would do well to spend more time EXERCISING his feeble mind to make up for his obvious lack of physical EXERCISE…..not so much BURSTING with ideas as BURSTING out of his clothes…..he forgot to mention the obvious ELEPHANT in the room i.e. Brexit……… as ELEPHANT too close a description to his own physical appearance.
Yes…above comments personal….however not anywhere near as offensive as some of the horsesh*t he was serving up as responses…..not so much MEASURED responses …..because MEASURED is also an uncomfortable association for him re his physical appearance….yes again comment personal….but there is FAT chance of me retracting comments……in fact I would go as far as to describe him as the epitome of a FAT cat…given that he owns a company and is a Tory to boot….I rest my case….hope no one is up for defending him….thought my prosecution waterTIGHT….actually better not mention TIGHT….. as in clothes too ?….yes again personal……but it’s just a bit of fun….I’m sure my opinion carries no WEIGHT…oops there I go again…….
geeo at 4.06
The notion that with 125,000 members,around 50% support in the polls and 56 out of 59 MPs we should NOT have campaigned for independence is what is “nonsense”.
Where did I suggest UDI or going for a referendum or anything like that at that point. Did you actually read my post?
What is your solution. Wait till support drops to nearer 40% and we drop to 35 MPs. And then think about. What a good idea.
O/T but important re Grenfell Tower fire.
Link…
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britainfire-regulations-insight-idUKKBN19U076.
This report contains a link to a diagram of the actual combined cladding. There were two, PIR and then PE. Reports earlier that I read confused me since they mentioned one or other. Well done Reuters for clarification. Kudos for professional reporting.
My earlier post on this forum re toxic combustion products of the PIR are well researched by the University of Central Lancashire as detailed in this link.
http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/1536/1/Stec%20and%20Hull_Fire_Toxicity_of_Insulation_Materials_EnergyBuildings_2011.pdf.
Note the polyisocyanurate (PIR) produces hydrogen cyanide in greater quantities than the other materials tested. (the clue is the …cyan… in the name.)
There will by maximum obfuscation and minimisation actions by the Tories on this. They are vulnerable.
This is very serious.
Dave McEwan Hill at 256pm
I have to say I agree. I would nornmally make a lengthy comment, but these days I have little good to say about the SNP. If they don’t see independence as a priority, then neither will the public. Not rocket science.
@heedtracker. It’s not about me. That I am YES is what counts.
You spoke of a conundrum that you could solve. Try solving this one:
The SNP policy is indyref.
To be in a position to offer indyref, they must secure a SP majority vote for it.
In other words if not a majority, largest party at Holyrood. As now.
The SP is devolution government ruled by Westminster with SP subservient.
So the SNP are the Scottish Govt. Their responsibility is to do well in (devolved WM) Govt.
If they do well, WM Govt / devolution seems to work well = why fix what isnae broken?
People see no reason to vote for independence.
If they don’t do well, WM / devolution may be shown to be failing Scotland, but the SNP would be put out of power as they carry the responsibility as the devolved government. They get the blame. So can’t offer an indyref as the minority opposition.
I’m no suggesting the SNP haven’t thought of this. They’re no daft.
Devolution is a trap the SNP know was created for them to kill independence. The SNP have accepted the trap. Political life in a gilded cage- for the political class anyway.
Kings of devolution.
That’s why I believe the whole basic strategy of the SNP is flawed. Indyref is the worst possible choice.
Aye it may appear the most democratic way of voting for independence. But to be in a position to offer an indyref is a self-defeating situation.
Donald Dewar, father of Holyrood and clever catch 22 thorn in the side of the SNP – even in death.
@colin alexander says: 9 July, 2017 at 6:13 pm:
“A Unionist is someone who prefers the Union to independence.”
That, of course is self evident.
” … I voted YES, I would again. Therefore, I am not a Unionist.”
Can we have a cite and any possible verification of those claims, please?
Seems we have, as usual, only your own word to go on.
Perhaps now you may be beginning to get my point.
Seems it is a case like the old, old joke of the squaddie’s mother at a Scottish regimental passing out parade.
The good lady turns to her husband, the soldier’s father, and says:-
“a’body is oot o step bit oor Jock, Faither”.
What is your solution. Wait till support drops to nearer 40% and we drop to 35 MPs. And then think about. What a good idea
Dave in light of the fact that Scotland voted NO in 2014, SNP manifesto straight after said ok, we’ll do what the farce Smith Commision cooked up, but if circumstances justify it, we will hold ref2, if you vote SNP.
Circumstances Brexit wise have justified it, FM Sturgeon came out with ref2 as we all know, its probably triggered the English tory snap GE and here we are, ref2 at the end of the 2 year Brexit deal deciders.
BBC Scotland led blue and red tory yoons are hardly sitting on their 2014 Naw Thanks laurels are they Dave?
The clock is ticking and it is them or us or now. BBC Scotland alone show everyday that they are not taking any prisoners now. There is no attempt at all at fair impartial reportage, in any form.
Donalda Mackinnon is going to take down the SNP. Its that simple.
So cool your jets Dave. Ref2 is going to happen.
@Robert Peffers
I’m not looking for anyone to believe in me. I have no interest in what you or other Wingers think of me. I have nothing to prove either.
It’s disappointing when WoS commentators attack the person with insults rather than critiquing the comment.
Is that any better than Unionist ignoramuses calling Nicola Sturgeon abusive names on Twitter?
Does it do a single thing in encouraging anyone to vote or support YES to see YES supporters throwing around insults, though I admit your out of step jibe is better than your usual ones. At least there’s an element of humour, which I like.
I enjoy your historical comments and appreciate your regular contributions. So, I’ve no desire to get into a slagging match with you, Robert.
I’m no asking for you to like me or my views, but I suggest you should debate them constructively in a way to promote YES, rather than attacking the person.
colin alexander says:
9 July, 2017 at 7:47 pm
@heedtracker. It’s not about me. That I am YES is what counts.
You spoke of a conundrum that you could solve. Try solving this one:
Its not a Catch 22 Colin. Again, fact is, Scotland voted No 2014. SNP can’t undo that, cant pretend it did not happen.
You, me, everybody has to accept this democratic process. Then you have to cling on to power, as BBC Scotland etc force you out, slowly then quickly etc.
This is how it works in Scotland. But circumstances do change and Brexit is another YES/NO choice for Scots.
How much of a riddle that is for you, I do not know.
So again, if ref2 is not windable, why has yoon culture gone mental trying to stop it all?
Because ref2 is extremely winnable.
Yes ” Heedracker @ 0821 pm ” very logical thinking.
@dave M hill.
Yet again you talk utter shite son.
The SNP have NEVER stopped campaigning for independence, if you think they have, or think i said they did or should, then YOU are a fucking simpleton.
Why not just take yersel tae fuck for a while instead of trying to be a fucking dick like yer pal colin the tit.
Dont bother replying, like the other clown, you are on a rubber ear.
Dick.
@Robert Kerr says: 9 July, 2017 at 7:04 pm:
“O/T but important re Grenfell Tower fire.
Link…
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britainfire-regulations-insight-idUKKBN19U076.”
Great piece of work Robert. Well researched, well written and well reported.
Many thanks for your efforts.
Robert Kerr
7.04pm
I read some of your link re the toxicity studies when burning.
Hair raising stuff.
The people n Grenfell Tower didn’t stand a chance but I did hear on the radio – only once, early one morning about 6.15 am that they felt people had died from cyanide poisoning before the flames reached them and that survivors in hospital were being treated with anti-cyanide medication ( I remember thinking I was unaware such a thing existed.)
What a tragedy.
@ heedtracker
If there is another indyref I sincerely hope Scotland’s people take the opportunity to vote for independence.
(Currently, I’m not convinced there will be one. I think the UK Govt will have to concede powers back to the EU and if that happens the SNP will argue an indyref is no longer necessary at that point in time or they won’t have time before 2021. But these are my speculative thoughts, not fact.)
We don’t need an SNP Scottish Govt to get independence. We don’t need an indyref either.
If the SNP or whoever stood on a manifesto of independence and won the majority of seats they would be able to democratically declare UDI immediately if a WM election. If it were a SP election, they could even hold a Holyrood free vote on declaring UDI. If the majority of MSPs vote Aye, they could democratically declare UDI.
That’s a democratic process too.That’s one way out of the devolution trap.
But the current SNP leadership are opposed to this. They LOVE devolution.
What makes you think Brexit would make the majority vote YES, when the majority voted NO in 2014?
Robert Peffers @ 5.10pm
See my post upthread at 11.04 this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/northern_ireland
There is a double challenge – one of bribery and one of breaching the Good Friday Agreement but equally important is that the Irish Government is calling for Sinn Fein to ensure the future of the border is secured by taking up their seats at Westminster – and of course, at the last election, Sinn Fein won all the border seats in N. Ireland
Keeping up with you all from a very hot California at the moment.
Some great comments on here today and great tweets on Twitter. Being away from Scotland shouldn’t stop us from campaigning for Independence.
Thanks to the Rev who is keeping up the pressure on the Yoons!
What makes you think Brexit would make the majority vote YES, when the majority voted NO in 2014?
UDI in Scotland would collapse into all kinds of problems. UDI only works when youre not physically attached to England for starters. Civil unrest aside, you really would see UKOK tanks on the Holyrood lawn.
Indyref2 is as winnable as Brexit was, or even Trump winning.
This is the real yoon fear. A good YES campaign.
Add to that harsh democratic reality, how do you get Project Fear 2.0 going? Headline frighteners like Clyde RN shipping were ofcourse a fraud but beyond that, the longer Scots devo goes on, the more accustomed and accepting we get of an actual Scots gov.
I think the YES vote didn’t turn out for the snap GE because there was nothing to vote for. So what if May wanted to boost her Westminster majority, seems hilarious now, but it makes no odds to you average YES Scot, me.
Where does BBC gimpery go now, for vote NO or else?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-26215579/extremely-difficult-for-scotland-to-join-eu-barroso
Any poster who criticises the likes of the Daily Record, Scotsman, The Herald, the Scottish Daily Mail and at the same time defends SNP politicians making money by writing in those rags is an utter hypocrite.
Their columns have zero effect on the unionists reading and sniggering at them.
Why give credibility to these anti-independence rags by writing for them?
It seems clear to me that Scottish independence is no longer the top priority of the SNP.
rock—
you tell people that you dont read the papers and tell folk not to read the National.
What does that make you?
geeeeeoo
DMcEHill has done more for the cause of independence than yoe ever will–
and with less profanity.
Loss your way son.
It’s one thing reading a newspaper. It’s another thing buying them.
It’s a totally thing altogether writing FOR them – and getting £20k for it – when that paper has done all it can to stop independence by peddling an outright con: The Vow. Then continued to peddle anti-independence propaganda.
The defenders of this position have offered the weakest of arguments in defence of it.
I think even in their guts it bothers them, but it’s hard for them to criticise the SNP moneygrubbers due to their loyalty to the SNP.
It’s one thing reading a newspaper. It’s another thing buying them.
It’s a totally thing altogether writing FOR them – and getting £20k for it – when that paper has done all it can to stop independence by peddling an outright con: The Vow. Then continued to peddle anti-independence propaganda.
The defenders of this position have offered the weakest of arguments in defence of it.
I think even in their guts it bothers them, but it’s hard for them to criticise the SNP moneygrubbers due to their misguided
loyalty to the SNP.
I think it’s fair to recognise (with the benefit of a large dose of hindsight, naturally!) that the recent diversionary UKGE was something of a lost opportunity for the SNP. (It was meant to be!) And the SNP surely knows it, since the party seems far more deflated by the result than yer average yesser is.
Hence the feeling – rightly or wrongly – that maybe some MPs were getting just a little too fond of their stay down there. And there was too much of a resumption, including on here, alas, of the “on-off-on” shifting sands over Brexit. We needed a clear Scottish line, and during the election I thought we had finally got it, from Nicola at least. But now we’re back onto making the UK “nicer leavers” again.
It’s that apparent uncertaintly of direction and purpose that is unsettling people. Including yours truly.
That having been said, there are also sound reasons for taking a pause, much though it may irritate. Not least the plain fact that thanks to the Unionists banging on incessantly about independence (!), many ordinary people have got their backs up about it at the moment, and to press ahead hard right now would be counter-productive. It also makes sound strategic sense to help keep the UK in the European single market, since that makes an iScotland’s economic case easier to argue.
It’s not an easy situation to deal with, but that’s just the way it is. There’s no point in whinging and complaining that life is unfair, and boo-hoo over the SNP. Progress is rarely always forward, FGS. It’s not the end of indy2 by a long way, much though the Unionists would desperately like to convince us all that it is. We have to get a grip and transcend this, both personally and communally.
The SNP have earned our respect. The party may need a little jollying-along at the moment, but in a positive and helpful way, please.
I just think those with their jobs on the side – especially when working for the opponents of independence – should do the decent thing and put everything into supporting independence and supporting those who support independence.
Not supporting the enemies of independence by working for them when they are already well paid.
colin alexander says
Are you a parrot, that can type?
We got your message Colin.
Let’s try to concentrate on attacking the enemies of Scottish indepence rather than fight amonst ourselves.
@ Robert J. Sutherland
Robert, I thought the SP already voted for indyref2, so why do YESsers need to support the SNP?
We are told YES can win, So why waste time backing the devolutionist SNP govt instead of putting all efforts into independence?
Now independence is the way forward via indyref2, so we are told, so why give a fig about devolution and how popular the SNP is or isn’t?
The SNP losing almost half their WM seats will only make them just as equally ineffective at WM as they were before. Despite their best efforts – Carol Monaghan MP, Mhairi Black and others have done well and worked hard – it came to nought. They achieved nothing for Scotland.
That’s how the WM system works. It’s designed to leave the most diligent, intelligent and talented Scottish MP wasting their time.
Keir Hardie etc took the WM road to reform; WM assimilated and ultimately defeated attempts at change from within by playing by WM’s establishment rules.
It couldn’t be, could it…?
An incessant poster with a somewhat self-centred agenda, saying it’s not about him yet insisting everyone discuss his issues irrespective of merit or the actual topic at hand…
Surely not a return of you-know-who under a different flag….
…or it is just the attraction of sites like this for certain personality types…?
Or possibly just my fevered imagination and a need for more sun and sleep!
Colin Alexander….are you a bot?
No group in support of independence is fighting within itself.
Plenty of clever little shits creating discord.
How much are THEY being paid by the UK Security Srevices?
I spent a hard .evening in the company of yoons. They are a bloody cult with the Daily Mail as their old testament and Daily Express as Revelations.
Test. Has Colin Alexander hacked me. Little shit.
colin alexander says at 10:01 pm
You are completely missing the point. It is essential that we have columnists in the Unionist press, as well as regular letter writers, to put the case for Independence as many newspaper readers do not use the internet for their news and believe the BBC
Test. Has Colin Alexander hacked me. Little shit.s
I asked, why do YES supporters need to support the SNP if we are going to achieve independence via indyref2 ?
The SNP have served their purpose. Praise here: they delivered on their manifesto pledge of getting an indyref. Holyrood has backed it.
So, the campaigning should be for YES. Not a party political campaign. YES is for all Scotland’s people, whether Labour, SNP, Green, Libdem or no party.
It must not be about the SNP for YES to win, cos the SNP has NEVER had more than 50% of the popular vote.
The Unionists have already learned that lesson. That’s why in 2014 they campaigned that a YES vote is a vote for the SNP, a vote for Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. Show you don’t like the SNP or Alex Salmond by voting NO. And NO won.
On here SNPers are doing the Unionists job for them, telling people a YES vote is an SNP vote. SNP and Yes are one and the same. It’s not true.
It’s a stupid thing to say or imply and it’s damaging to the independence cause.
@ Robert J Sutherland
Many people have a very distinctive writing style, and struggle to disguise it – often because they are unaware of it. (I often catch up with threads by working my way up from the bottom, until I reach a post I recognize having read before, after which I re-read them in the correct order. Even though I’m only skim-reading on the way up, I often know whose post something is, before their name appears at the top of my screen.)
Earlier today I considered quoting a couple of sentences that I thought were classic examples of a particular poster’s style, despite being ostensibly posted by someone else. The sentences concerned were unusual for the “someone else”, which made me more suspicious.
So I agree that there may well be an imposter or two here (poster being part of imposter, of course!). What I’m not sure about is whether my you-know-who is the same as your you-know-who!
I’m not as active on here as I was in the past but I still read everything.
What I’ve noticed in the past wee whilie is long-standing Wingers being attacked for their personal opinions on the SNP and the independence debate.
I won’t mention any names but I see Wingers who have remained active in the fight for independence since 2014 being castigated because their PERSONAL opinion is not the flavour of the month for other pro-independence supporters.
As Rev Stu has typed (I paraphrase), attack the premise, not the typer. Some of the insults being thrown around on here are, really, missing the point of this forum.
What do we want?
INDEPENDENCE!
When do we want it?
ASAP!
On here SNPers are doing the Unionists job for them, telling people a YES vote is an SNP vote. SNP and Yes are one and the same. It’s not true.
It’s a stupid thing to say or imply and it’s damaging to the independence cause.
Yes but, if there is no SNP Scots gov there is no referendum. Clearly.
That’s why the BBC are going to get them out. Also, clearly.
God only knows what you think youre up to Colin.
https://caltonjock.com/2017/07/09/theresa-may-forging-ahead-with-her-totalitarian-state-all-private-information-historical-and-real-time-will-be-available-to-government-agencies-an-independent-scotland-would-be-able-to-make-its-ow/
@geeo says: 9 July, 2017 at 8:26 pm:
“Yet again you talk utter shite son.
The SNP have NEVER stopped campaigning for independence, if you think they have, or think i said they did or should, then YOU are a fucking simpleton.”
I agree with geeo. Anyone who imagines the SNP at council, Holyrood, Westminster or Brussels level have stopped fighting the Scottish independence corner has been keeping themselves far too close to Westminster Propaganda sources and are here on Wings pushing the Westminster Establishment propaganda message for all they are worth.
Just the other day I read a report by the SG that quoted the latest statistics on the incidence of fires in Scotland.
The overall picture was a great reduction in the incidence of fires right across the board but by far the greatest, and most significant, reduction in the incidence of fires was in buildings of four or more stories.
Thing is, I could NOT find a word about that good news in the Scottish MSM nor from any of the Scottish broadcasters. Neither has there been the reports that explain the Scottish Regulations, while they do not make sprinkler systems compulsory, do make it compulsory that there are rising mains water outlets on each floor of higher rise buildings.
One quoted cause of problems under English building regulations is that it is neither compulsory to fit sprinklers or rising water mains in high rise properties. Thus fire fighters cold not get water pressure to hoses in the higher levels and their pumps could not get water pressure on higher levels.
We did not see those stories on Scottish news outlets because they only want stories that show Scotland and Scots in a bad light.
Water water everywhere, well in Scotland anyway.
http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk
Brian Doonthetoon @ 23:00,
You are right on all counts, BDtt. Worth keeping in mind that we are all human and we all make wrong calls at one time or another.
That doesn’t suddenly make SNPers (for example) “the enemy”, as some are now trying to malignantly insinuate.
And I say that as someone who isn’t myself a member.
We all have our different reasons yet (ironically!) share our current frustrations. The end point for all genuine yessers isn’t in doubt, though. We are all – if we’re wise, anyway – just looking for the most effective ways (plural) to achieve it. Together.
SNP BAD??? you arseholes that think that, ought to think what Scotland would be like without them. I honestly think OOR Government should tell all voters that voted tory,(in any colour), they should forfeit all concessions mitigated by the only people that care for us. tractors proudscot buts…… fuckin areholes.
As for you lot that wer snp and are no longer… bite my fecking wullie. Tory bastard trolls.
o/t
A few days ago, someone on here (I think – I read so many things it might just possibly have been elsewhere) recommended a book by John Burrowes : Irish – The Remarkable Saga of a Nation and a City.
I thought it sounded interesting, and bought a copy (for 1p!). I’m reading it now, and it is indeed worth it.
So, apologies for forgetting who mentioned it, and thanks!
Ah, I see. A column in the Daily Record doesn’t help. Which is why Brian Wilson who had a column in the 80s found it didn’t help him in the 1987 General Election, where there was overall a swing of just 3.4% to Labour. A lot of people here just said he was a publicity hound.
Oh wait, Brian Wilson took Cunninghame North off the useless Tory John Corrie with a 14.5% swing, over 4 times the national UK average.
Oh.
I met brian wilson at a farmers do years ago, guest speaker he was, as soon as i shouted ‘ORDER’ he shat himself. absolute clown of a man. The main guy was a minister and he was funny, but they wer all yoons. I just kept shouting ‘ORDER’.Aboot 15 year ago in largs.I loved being a Nat even then. 😉
geeo at 8.26
Lovely stuff. Just defined yourself as of no use to us in any way.
Having been in the SNP since 1959 and in virtually every position in it I think I have a fair idea of what campaigning is.
You always know when somebody has been exposed when they revert to profanity.
Just as a matter of interest I have all the leaflets we had to distribute at the recent General Election. There was not one mention of independence on them.
I see we’re still at the Colin Alexander show
Most folk have been reasonably civil to you @colin alexander
including me now it’s time not to be, if you’re genuine then the Independence movement can do without you as a disruptive head case so Fukc off please and don’t come back
If you’re a Troll which I believe you to be the same applies but at least you wont be offended because you’ll be used to it
Divide and conquer…… its the way its going. get a grip ladies. .
@yesindyref2 and fact is Joan McAlpine has a pro-SNP column in the Daily Record. She’s a Dumfriesshire MSP and yet the Tories gained a MSP seat (from Labour) in 2016 and a WM seat in Dumfriesshire ( from the SNP) in 2017.
Joan McAlpine did achieve a 7% rise in support, as did Oliver Mundell for the Tories in 2016.
But at this June’s GE, Richard Arkless of the SNP lost his WM seat to a Tory. He had over a 6,000 majority but lost by over 5,000 votes to a Tory.
Mibbie the D R column helps Joan McAlpine – it certainly does financially. I can’t see any evidence it has done her SNP colleagues or the independence cause any good though.
@ Dr Jim.
Haven’t said much tae ye if anything, but i love yer nae shit attitude, Kudos to you , 😉
@Dr Jim
If you don’t like my comments, then don’t read them.
I’m no disrupting anything.
If you can’t accept the SNP won us the indyref vote and lost us the YES vote, then that’s your problem.
If the SNP and YES campaign haven’t learned from that, then I don’t know what anyone can say to make people see sense.
If you can’t accept me pointing out the potentially serious failings in the mindset of some SNPers, that’s tough.
If you can’t accept that a vote for independence being presented as a vote for the SNP or the SNPs policies – based on the theory:
SNP devolved govt good = independence is good, is sheer stupidity, then that’s your problem.
The ONLY time the SNP got 50% is in 2015 when they made it absolutely clear there was no independence referendum on offer. No independence on offer.
The SNP weren’t really standing for anything, but they got 50% because Labour stood for something: Labour stood for sooking up to the Tories and WM Tory Govt.
The SNP has gained us a SP mandate for another indyref.
You want a re-run of 2014?
These are some of the differences:
Nicola Sturgeon SNP leader now.
SNP support down from 40s % in 2014 to 35% at 2017 GE
Price of oil down by 2/3.
Brexit
Labour in Scotland much less popular than they were in 2014. ( Whether support grow or not could be crucial).
Surge in Tory support in 2017.
I can’t say what the situation will be whenever the indyref happens, if it happens.
There are some major changes now that could affect how people vote in indyref2. Some negative, such as the huge drop in oil prices ( but they might continue to rise again to some extent).
Some positive, such as Labour has suffered a huge loss in support since 2014.
Is it enough for YES to go from runners up to winners? I hope so, but a lot more work needs to be done.
The economy is the number one issue. YES must convince voters they won’t be financially worse off with independence.
They failed to do that last time. Project Fear won a clear knockout victory there. That was the YES campaign’s glass chin.
Till date we have had no answers from the SNP / YES on that most important of issues. Early days, I know, but time soon flies by and votes can fly oot the windae before you know it.
And now for a song…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHENVBVbUg
Aooooowww!
@hamish 100.
If you think what Dave M Hill posted originally was in any way helpful to the cause, then by all means, explain which part and how ?
What we did before is history, it is what we do NOW that is relevent.
Perhaps you could tell everyone what it is you think i have not been doing to help the indy cause, since you appear to know me so well ?
Big assumptions about someone you do not know in the slightest.
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 9 July, 2017 at 11:43 pm:
” … The end point for all genuine yessers isn’t in doubt, though. We are all – if we’re wise, anyway – just looking for the most effective ways (plural) to achieve it. Together.”
Actually there is only one way that Scotland will legally regain her independence from the United Kingdom and that way is by a recognisable democratically elected body, (the SG of any political party), declaring that the Treaty, (not the ACTs), of union
Aye right. 1,617,989 people voted YES in 2014 and we’re all identical, clones of each other, all think the same, look the same, have the exact same politics, ambitions, partners, children who are all clones.
Isn’t that right Me? No you’re wrong Me. What? You’re my clone you CAN’T disagree with Me. But I do Me. Well fuck off Me, you’re a Yoon. No you’re a yoon. Hold on, which Me is that talking now?
BBC Breakfast, doing a report from Lake Windermere as it has been awarded UNESCO World Heritage status. Report also went onto declare that the Lake District is also home the UK’s tallest mountain, Scafell Pike. Well there you go, learn something new every day!
Comparing the differences between 2014 and now – though there won’t be any indyref “now”, I forgot a major difference: YES started in opinion polls from way down in the 20s %.
In 2017 YES support is in the 40s. Lots of people who thought indy impossible then saw that YES came close to winning : a swing of just a few % points could mean a win for YES if there is a next time.
That must be encouraging for Independists and worrying for Unionists.
So, if there is another indyref, we start from a better position. Hopefully lessons will have been learned and improvements made to the campaign.
Geoooo
I take that is an apology? No effen and blinding! Some may listen to you now. Can still disagree though. I don’t have to repeat all of my points in agreeing with DMcEH
Independence won’t be given it has to be fought for and we need to start last week whatever the SNP view is.
Cheers
Communication, understanding and tolerance is the key.
The YES movement is greater and wider than politics. It’s not a single party and is not governed by party politics. It is a principle an ideal. It is self determination.
All parties and no parties. Kinda speaks for itself.
People really need to understand this and what it means. Conflating the SNP and leadership of/responsibility for the YES campaign is a creation of the media and establishment political strategy.
The SNP are (if anything) the popular voice of the independence movement. They are the Scottish government and they are the mandated gatekeepers of the Scottish electorate’s right to decide. Not the only party right enough, there is after all one other, but certainly one of only two parties whose leadership is willing to give Scotland’s people a choice and defend their inalienable rights.
Self determination isn’t the sole responsibility of politicians. It’s the right of the people. The political class are public servants. It’s their job to reflect and carry out the will of the people through public mandate, which is kinda what the Scottish government have done and to the letter.
We/they want them to do something different, then they need to ask us and we need to give them permission.
Seems like a cool arrangement when you think about it. 😉
Here’s a wee blast fae the past: http://archive.is/lzmxs that makes interesting reading with hindsight.
Alex Salmond: “He said Scotland could declare independence after acquiring sufficient power at Holyrood to be independent in all but name, adding: “Many countries have proceeded through that route.”
“The First Minister also highlighted the parliamentary route to independence, raising the possibility of the SNP reverting to its previous policy of seeking a mandate in a General Election.
“Jim Sillars, the former deputy SNP leader, tweeted: “Let Yes assert new indy rule – no more ref – majority votes and seats at Holyrood 2016 enough.” ”
I still believe the indyref policy is the wrong choice. But if one is held – which I still don’t believe will happen in 2018/19 – I would want YES to win.
YES can win if the economic answers are there and people are convinced by them.
@yesindyref2
Heh! Near forgot the the important bit. It’s a chunk of the UN charter you’re well familiar with dads.
Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:
1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
3. To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and
4. To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.
‘Self determination of peoples’… Again, kinda speaks for itself. It’s for people to decide and their public servants to carry out the will of their people etc, etc. 🙂
Picture Castle Greyskull and furry underpants moment.
colin alexander says:
10 July, 2017 at 8:19 am
Here’s a wee blast fae the past.
Parp!
UDI has only one scenario Colin, Scotland votes YES, Westminster blocks it. And that’s all Colin. Stick to smearing individual SNP figures. At least that makes sense yoon culture wise.
Other news Colin, indy for Scotland takes a myriad of forms,
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/foreign-investors-surge-into-scotland-2m29rb32p
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-idUKKBN19U10T
All blue tory yoon meeja Colin.
Nobody here is out to damage the SNP. Trolls excepted…
But a significant number of Yessers are finding scant nourishment in the current SNP campaign, and are trying to communicate their anxiety and concern about it before time to react runs out.
It is not SNPbad to suggest the SNP should listen.
At present there is only one show in town & that’s Brexit, independence is on the back-burner for noo. Wait till the catastrophe unfolds & the path becomes clear. Constantly harping on like Ruth Davidson is both counter-productive & divisive! Want! Want! Want!
SNP politicians or supporters can write in the Press or anywhere else they like. There are plenty of lying reports written about them. By the ‘Press’ and others. That’s supposed to be Democracy. The lying Tories will take down themselves. They are doing it,
Criminal Boris Johnston had a £1/2Million column in The Times. Dismissed for lying by Murdoch. ‘Honour’ among thieves? Then at the Telegraph. Non Don tax evading Barclay brothers.
Osbourne is now Editor of a newspaper. Trying to take down May. After ruining the Scottish Oil sector and the UK economy.
The SNP wanted to nationalise the rail sector in Scotland. Investment long overdue. Westminster refused. Just as they refused every other promised power. To have an even better run country. The SNP Gov has only been in power in majority Gov for just over five years. They have done more for in five years for the Scottish economy than the unionists did in fifty. Scotland has never been better run, since 1928 and before. The unionists Parties are parasites. Corrupt liars. Corbyn will be another abject liar it is in their DNA. The Emperor has no clothes and incompatible policies. Nonsense.. Believing their own publicity as usual.
The SNP govern for the whole of the people in Scotland. That is their remit, which they honour. Standing up for Scotland and doing the best they can. They can because the Party is funded by the members who care about their communities and society. Not outside interests. Funded criminally. The Tories are funded by the bankers and others trying to crave favors. Not the SNP.
Independence in the EU will come soon. Making Scotland £20Billion better off, with different policies. Scotland will finally take it’s rightful place in the world without Westminster’s criminal interference. Scitland will be fairer, better more equal happier and more prosperous. It just needs a small swing. The Tories will soon be gone. Along with the corrupt lying members. Troughing greedy low lives. Causing unecessary misery for the majority of people. They haven’t a clue.
Breeks: “It is not SNPbad to suggest the SNP should listen.”
Okay, Breeks. I’m listening.
Assuming for the sake of discussion you’re right and the SNP is lacking, what should it do to regenerate dynamism?
The Guardian’s just another tory media outfit that passionately hates everything Scottish democracy but they had Guy Verhofstadt explaining a possible strong stable future Scotland, indirectly, yesterday,
“Improve the Brexit offer to EU citizens, or we’ll veto the deal
Guy Verhofstadt”
“The UK proposal only confirms this belief – falling short of its own ambitions to “put citizens first”. If implemented, it would cast a dark cloud of vagueness and uncertainty over the lives of millions of Europeans.”
“This proposal leaves so many unanswered questions. Will European students have to pay more – even after they have applied for the first post-Brexit academic year of 2019-2020? Will doctors enjoy continued and guaranteed recognition of their qualifications in the UK? Why are frontier workers, who work in the UK but live in the EU, not mentioned at all? And why won’t the UK government simply confirm that the cut-off date for all European citizens will not be sooner than the date of Brexit itself?”
“But the real cause for concern lies in the continuing uncertainty.”
Scotland voted Remain.
To-day’s Press and Journal going big again on Aberdeen Business Rates burden with several attacks on the SNP / Scottish government but no comment printed from SNP or Scottish government. Balanced yoon journalism at its best.
Time Business for Scotland was more publicly pro active.
http://www.businessforscotland.com/
@Hamish100 says: 10 July, 2017 at 7:49 am:
“Independence won’t be given it has to be fought for and we need to start last week whatever the SNP view is.
Cheers.
You are, Hamish100, making at least one rather false sweeping generalisation. What is your evidence that the SG or the SNP or the YES movement ever stopped fighting for Scotland’s independence?
The only evidence that you display is that you have not detected their efforts. The fight has gone on in councils throughout Scotland, in Holyrood, at Westminster and in the European Parliament.
There are also lots of activists on social media and individual people in Scotland who have never stopped fighting for independence. Some of them, like myself are old and have been fighting for independence all their adult life.
Just because you, personally, have not read about it, heard it on your radio or watched it on your TV only proves you have not detected the ongoing fighting.
Yet here you are on Wings Over Scotland that has an ever increasing readership and an active band of regular commenters, some of which last category also have their own blogs and websites.
The truth is that the Westminster Establishment have closed down, even further, what news is allowed to be released into the public domain and have stepped up their centuries old propaganda campaigns of lies, omissions, brainwashing and propaganda.
What’s more the SG/SNP detractors on Wings are ample proof that Westminster can effectively and efficiently brainwash some people who would class themselves as independence supporters.
I posted, up-thread, that there was a press release from the SG/SNP regarding the statistics about the incidence of fires in Scottish buildings.
The figures showed that the legal building regulations in force in Scotland had halved the number of incidence of fires in Scottish Buildings of over four stories. This apparently due to the requirement for the provision of rising mains water hydrants on every floor. Thus high pressure water is available to firefighters on every level of taller buildings.
All we were made aware of in our Westminster Establishment controlled media was the numbers of Scottish buildings that did NOT have sprinkler systems installed. No mentions that, unlike the rest of the United Kingdom, Scotland required taller buildings to have installed rising Mains water hydrants on all levels and that this was effectively working to cut serious fire incidents in Scotland.
Please do not blame the SG/SNP for something they are not guilty of. By doing so you are doing the Westminster Establishment’s work for them.
They are fighting hard but it is not being reported and if you want to be properly informed then read their reports on the SNP, Scottish Government and the Holyrood and Westminster official channels that do report what actually is happening.
There are also several, on-line, News Agency sites that do report the news.
Not only lies, but double standards as well from the unionists who were very happy when companies threatened workers with the loss of their jobs by moving out of Scotland if we became independent.
@Breeks says: 10 July, 2017 at 8:53 am:
“Nobody here is out to damage the SNP.”
In your humble opinion, of cource.
“But a significant number of Yessers are finding scant nourishment in the current SNP campaign, and are trying to communicate their anxiety and concern about it before time to react runs out.”
And by doing so on an open forum most certainly is damaging to the SG, SNP, YES movement and the entire independence movement.
People who really want to help the movement must take their doubts and their questions to their branches of whatever organisation they support. Any SNP member can attend any SNP branch and bring up any matter they have doubts about.
When you air these doubts on an open forum you lend encouragement to the unionists and reinforce their constant negativity of all things Scottish.
Just face the very obvious fact that you are not going to hear, read or watch anything good about the SG, SNP or that benefits Scotland from the MSM or dead tree press. That doesn’t indicate the fight is not going on – it just indicates that you are not being made aware that it is an ongoing fight.
It is not SNPbad to suggest the SNP should listen.
Scotsman has the most stomach churning hagiography of Ruth Davidson by Kirsty Gunn this morning.
Never mind her policies its her laugh and dress sense that beguiles voters.
So the Wobbly Wobbly Wummin wants a coalition of the other parties to help keep her in office. The sheer arrogance of the wummin!! Just wondering if the other parties are to get bribes of several billions from her money tree.
Course it might no be true- ah heard it oan the BBC.
“Assuming for the sake of discussion you’re right and the SNP is lacking, what should it do to regenerate dynamism?”
All it needs is a date for IndyRef2. Name the date and there will follow an explosion of enthusiasm. Presently the YES campaign / SNP engine is merely idling. In the back of the van, however, there is a LOT of activity unseen by the MSM. Developing the economic case for Indy, developing currency plans i.e. fixing the things IndyRef1 got wrong. It’s happening but quietly. Until we’re ready. Until the Brexshit really hits the fan.
Then we’ll have the date. Then nothing will hold us back. Full throttle. In the meantime – keep on keeping on.
Meg merrilees and others last night,
Just thinking about how Sinn Fein have all the border constituencies in N.Ireland, and the problems with brexit. It did occur to me, if the good Friday agreement breaks down due to the DUPTory homophobic bigot party in London, could we see partition of N.Ireland itself, with all the border seats reverting back to Ireland? The damage of brexit to N.Ireland farming could make it a very popular move.
It seems outrageous to suggest it, but I have to say, both for N.Ireland and Scotland, Brexit really is one almighty f*** up of epic proportions, so I do think anything could happen.
All it needs is a date for IndyRef2. Name the date and there will follow an explosion of enthusiasm. Well said Proud Cybernat
Grouse Beater says..9:18
Commit.
Commit to staying Europe.
Commit to Independence in Europe.
Commit to actively promoting Independence AND Europe.
Give Yessers and SNP folk a common sticking post to nail their colours to, and make it strong enough so that Europe can throw a line over it and hold Scotland safe.
We know Brexit means exit. Why wait to see the minutiae of the deal? The “exit” isn’t going to change. The Sovereign voice of Scotland voted remain. We should have made remaining in Europe the line in the sand it properly should be, the big ultimatum for Scots and Westminster alike, then shovel all of the onus for breaking the Union apart onto Westminster if chooses to leave through its own wreckless stupidity and equally reckless disregard for the sovereignty of Scotland.
Brexit is an act of brazen defiance to Scottish sovereignty. We should defend our sovereignty to the hilt and the decision the sovereign people made, and make Westminster the wrecker in all of this. The Act of Union isn’t worth the paper it’s written on on, but assuming for the sake of discussion it was, it makes a mockery of the concept of a bipartite treaty between two equals. The actions of Westminster are only lawful in circumstances IF Scottish sovereignty didn’t exist. If Scottish sovereignty does exist and is legitimate in law, then Westminster hasn’t a leg to stand on. Make the god damned case!
Affirm Scottish Sovereignty, put ourselves on solid constitutional ground clearly understood by all, and challenge Westminster to reconcile how the Act of Union physically erased Scottish sovereignty, removed it from the Scottish people, and empowered Westminster to subjugate the will of the Scottish people. Those are arguments which Westminster loses, – period. Compel Westminster to accept it does not hold the reigns on Scotland.
Scotland wins, because the Act of Union purports to do a thing that could not be done, cannot be done, and cannot ever be done. Westminster assumes power and authority it does not have. Brexit is not just England’s sovereign choice to leave its Union with Europe, we should be framing Brexit as a similar sovereign choice to leave its Union with Scotland.
If we don’t stand up for our sovereignty now, it will be the greatest act of shameless treachery we can commit against our own country and its long history, which will leave Scotland as nothing more than the tartan wrapper on a box of UK shortbread.
EVERY action in the aforementioned paragraphs currently HAS all the democratic mandate it needs. There is no democratic barrier to doing any of it, there is no need for any electoral swing one way or the other, and Scotland already holds all the aces. It is high time Scotland started to “frame” the debate that however this turns out, Scotland wins, Scottish sovereignty is respected, and Scotland stays in Europe.
Them’s the rules. Just apply them.
I’m not however blind to the angry recriminations that Unionists will agitate, but neither democracy, not riots in the streets are the superiors of our Sovereignty. But this juncture is where political compromise, magnanimity, conciliation, and understanding should play its part. Secure the power of sovereignty then be respectful, subdued, and magnanimous about its implementation.
Do not race to be Independent, but for a time be content to be sovereign but in constitutional stasis. Hold ScotRef as a plebiscite, so that properly informed democracy dictates how the Sovereign nation of Scotland exits that transitional stasis.
But always, always, always, paint Westminster is the wrecker. They wanted Brexit, they ignored Scottish sovereignty, they tested the Union to destruction. That “framing” will stick, because it’s true.
That Grouse Beater is how I would frame my campaign, and win it.
Breeks @ 10.45
Totally agree that’s what should have happened.
It’s what I thought would have happened,the morning after the EU referendum.
But don’t you think that it’s too late to take that line now?
We don’t have the Media to rewrite the history of what has been said and done this past year!
While it’s not how I would have proceeded, I can still see the sense in the choices that have been made,and absolutely do think that there will be Indy ref 2 with in the next two years…..and that we will win it.
But I don’t see how we can get on to the path you suggest from where we are now?
Interesting article today from Mr Kerevan:
http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15399873.George_Kerevan__Scotland_should_hold_a_unilateral_referendum_on_the_outcome_of_Brexit_negotiations/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor
Breeks at 10:45 a.m.
I agree with much of what you say. I am however curious as to how you will get a majority of Scottish voters to support independence when something like a third of yes supporters support Brexit and many of them, if they had to choose, may well choose Brexit over independence. If the yes movement nails its colours to the European mast too firmly, (if as you suggest we “commit” to Europe) is there not a risk that this will punch a hole in the yes supporting vote?
In my view we need to decide what is the number one priority. Clearly that should be independence – in or out of Europe. My personal preference is for independence in Europe, but I don’t want to alienate from the yes movement those who want out of Europe. We need to be a broad church, united around our highest priority and prepared to be tolerant of all views on secondary matters. That does mean that large doses of “fudge” and ambiguity might be needed – but such is political life.
Sinky says:
This sort of rubbish angers me. She is the local representative of a nasty party whose role in life is to do Scotland down. This personality cult shit is just one more attempt undermine the democratic process.
She’s been tagged #R8peClauseRuth but she’s also #HardBrexitRuth #AusterityRuth #DUPRuth #DeportationRuth #PrivatisationRuth #BenefitsSanctionsRuth (as I said last night) plus #TridentRuth #OrangeOrderRuth #GreaterEnglandRuth and #EVELRuth… and that is what we need to hammer home.
‘Ruth Davidson … isn’t she nice … just don’t mention she’s actually a Tory!’ … Nae Chance.
Brexit, Indy, EU etc
My own view is that the SNP should have taken a harder line on the 19th Sept 2014. I know, everyone (who matters) was heart broken, and perhaps it easy to say with hind sight. The SNP/YesScotland line should have said that they accepted the ‘bought’ NO result on the basis that the promises of SuperDevoFedMax were delivered. If not, then they would campaign for a rerun.
Brexit is being used as the potential excuse of IndyRef2, but Heaven knows we have much reason beyond that. IMO campaigning for IndyRef2 needs focus on events beyond Brexit which is just one more betrayal.
The NaeSayers will use divide and conquer is IndyRef2 is mainly about the EU.
Brexit should be the final straw, no more.
Robert J Sutherland
LoL thinking along the same lines , as Crazycat say’s its all in the posters wording . Against all the best advice given on Wings there are Wingers who continually ignore that advice DONT FEED THE FUCKING TROLLS.
Its good sometimes tae hiv ah good rant.
I dunno, Breaks. A majority of Scots could by now be in favour of Indy, and a majority seem to favour Remain. But once you wrap the two questions up together you may no longer have a majority for the combined package. That is, a proportion of Remainers may be agin Indy, and likewise a certain fraction of Indy supporters will want to be independent of both the UK and the EU. (Technically we’re talking about ‘unions’ and ‘intersections’ in set theory, Venn diagrams and all that stuff).
So maybe the SNP are wise to let Brexit play out one way or another before they bring Indy to the fore again? Fight one battle at a time, rather than find ourselves trying to fight on two fronts?
Robert Peffers, I’m sorry but I disagree with you about criticism of the SNP on an open forum.
I’ve never been a member of any party whatsoever yet I have only ever and always voted for the SNP.
The reason for this is simple. Independence, independence and independence.
I and others will criticise the SNP if I or they think they are endangering our independence which they have on a few occasions such as talking about a once in a generation referendum or a once in a lifetime opportunity. Now I understand that this was an observation and not a promise but why the fuck were the Unionists given that ammunition.
Perhaps someone can tell me this wasn’t a mistake and it was all part of a cunning plan to enhance the independent movement.
Telling us all that an independence referendum should be linked to having polls show a consistent lead for independence is another cock-up but no doubt someone will explain it is rather an ingenious strategy.
Linking another independence referendum to Brexit, I’m more than happy to admit, was either brilliant or fortuitous. I would like to believe the former.
But here’s the nub of the matter, our independence movement shouldn’t ever be hamstrung by anyone, least of all the SNP by adding fucking caveats to an independence referendum but no doubt someone will be along to explain to me and others that this is a tactically superior strategy.
Now Robert, I’ve been in favour of independence since school in the 70s when I became aware of our constitutional shambles and when I didn’t know another soul who expressed their wish for independence and I’ve been campaigning for it ever since and helping change scores of people’s views and catalyst for many more. I’ve been promoting independence for a long time just like your good self.
The last thing I want to do is jeopardise independence so allow me my legitimate right to criticise those I believe to be hindering it.
I believe informed debate to be very important on this site and that this will enhance our chances of independence and will not help the Unionists one bit, disagreements are nothing to be fearful of and should not be hidden away.
Dan Huil 11.29. On reading that piece the word Cul-de-sac springs to mind , Kerevan needs to belt up .
K.A.Mylchreest says:
I think the SNP in its Scottish Government role, and the wider Parliament with its pro Indy majority needs to hold back and let Brexit reality become more widely apparent. That means choosing to pass legislation to hold IndyRef2 at the right time, perhaps a year away (for legislation).
However, IMO, there is already more than enough cause to rank up Indy’s profile again. Yes2 needs to be launched and some serious pro Indy, anti Union, pro progressive/moderate, anti hard-right campaigning. And softly softly on the EU issue.
We need to get the ball rolling again. The Unionists have been trying to make people view everything through an IndyRef perspective. Let’s now make people view everything through an Indpendence perspective. There’s a difference.
Going OT. But then again everything political is interconnected. Here’s a set of figures I worked out from Wiki info. There are so many indicators about how the UK now stands out as being different from ‘normal’ European countries,
How much some European countries subsidise their railways per passenger km.
Ireland €0.53
Switzerland €0.32
Denmark €0.29
Sweden €0.26
Belgium €0.26
Spain €0.21
Germany €0.21
Austria €0.20
Italy €0.19
France €0.16
Netherlands €0.15
Poland €0.12
United Kingdom €0.07
A couple ot things WE in YES must do:
Get the YES movement back up and running ASAP, people were informed, motivated and active. Think locally and act Scotland wide. There is a vacum, others will fill it with fanciful ideas about how the uk can secure the best welfare provision known to mankind once the uk is out of EU. We see this already, the sums don’t stack up, but the retoric sounds good to those who will not probe.
The SNP need to go on the attack on its record and highlight failings of others. On Sunday Keith Brown got stuck in and defended the SNP’s record and highlighted failings of Westminster.
Based on this and other performances I’d have him as the SNP’s John Reid / Frank Dobson. Safe pair of hands with a brain and a bite that won’t roll over to the likes of Brewer, etc.
The wating game? Brexit to mess up completely!
I see pros and cons here, let the tories supported by labour muck up, then call the referendum. If YES are seen to stand back, up to this point, what will the people think?
Become involved, but have a distnctive plan for Scotland, a plan that does not involve supporting a smooth transition for Scotland’s withdrawl from EU. We voted to stay!
The only certaininty in uk politics at present are that the tories will muck up brexit. What happens up to the point where it is obvious failure will result and the timing / strategy of SNP / YES on a referendum will be decisive.
Game on!
Liz g @ 11:14
“But I don’t see how we can get on to the path you suggest from where we are now?…”
Well Liz g, what I might try is the same campaign, the hard sell so to speak, but do it behind closed doors in a constitutional summit with Theresa May.
First, get the whole thing, the legitimacy of Scottish sovereignty ratified, the preambles of a deal with Europe, the plebiscite drafted, and then, in private session away from any cameras and microphones, essentially discuss the terms of UK surrender. Ok surrender is a bit tongue in cheek maybe, but it’s essentially correct. Westminster has lost control over Scotland.
However, that isn’t the end of it. Behind all the bravado, right now I think Westminster is close to panic over Brexit. Just look at how they seized on Trumps Trade Deal, when we all know the very thing you do NOT want to do with an American Trade Deal is sign it quickly, you give it to your lawyers for a few years first.
Perhaps instead of trying to turn half of Scotland into YES voters, maybe we should try to turning Theresa May into an “undecided”. We need Theresa May to believe that Scotland remaining in Europe is perhaps not the worst thing that might happen.
I cannot see Brexit turning out well for the UK, with or without Scotland, but for now the delusion it will is in the ascendency. Brexit is their inevitable direction and there is a degree of momentum behind it. After all their stupid posturing, threatening Spain with war for gods sake, the UK would suffer a massive loss of face to turn around and go cap in hand to remain in Europe. That doesn’t make it the wrong thing to do, but it does put 5 or 10 years gap before the UK can stomach doing it. Maybe they never will.
But expediency comes into it too. If Theresa May was left in no doubt that Scotland was staying in Europe, if that particular die was firmly cast, then the game changes from keeping Scotland in the UK into a new game of mitigating its departure. That means finding something positive out of the deal.
In short, Scotland has said we ARE having a divorce, but we’re giving you the opportunity of an amicable divorce or an acrimonious catfight. Countries might outwardly bicker like a married couple, but beneath the headlines, amicable deals are where it’s at.
See I think that an Independent Scotland, with one foot in Europe and another foot in Ye Olde England, makes Scotland a very practicable “buffer” state in between Europe and England, where certain EU Trade rules might be “bent” as a concession to former UK trading arrangements between Scotland and England, thus allowing both Westminster to save face and continue trading with Europe, while the EU for the small price of turning a blind eye to a “transitional” arrangement in the UK which facilitates ongoing trade arrangements between Europe, England and Wales.
In essence, it isn’t Scotland given the holding pen status, but it’s given to England and Wales instead. If England and Wales entered a holding pen status before formally exiting the EU, it might give them time and breathing space to rethink the idea and choose to remain after all. Now yes, they could do the same thing with Scotland still manacled to the Union, but, don’t forget that these would be circumstances where Scottish Indy is a done deal, and an angry Scotland made bitter over the divorce would have a veto over England rejoining. Scotland could make every day a Brexit day.
In short, if Scotland was to offer Westminster an amicable divorce behind closed doors, then I don’t think it would be the SNP looking for a new strategy, but the ground will have shifted under Westminster, and if Theresa is prepared to do deal with the DUP, then she is indisputably desperate to do a deal with somebody.
But it all hinges on our SNP government being crystal clear and word perfect on the primacy of constitutional sovereignty, and not backing down about the principle. It is not a democratic variable.
See, here comes the part you might not like, but part of the deal might see Scotland Independent, (happy days), in the EU, (happy days), but still in a UK arrangement, (whit? Whit? Whit?)- but a much looser constitutionally “confederal” United Kingdom but with distinctly separate Scottish and English sovereignties and Borders, but a modern confederacy with partial EU membership. Hot digiddy! Everybody is happy… more or less.
Some people on here are deluding themselves. Or perhaps their intention is to delude us.
That unwanted and unplanned General Election was very damaging and challenges some of the assumptions we have all been motoring along on. Note I said “we”. Unlike some others on here I don’t know all the answers. If I did I would be world president and sitting in an independent Scotland. What I do know is that our leadership is more than aware of the serious kick up the arse we have just received and are forensically measuring the effect and are consulting widely with all of us the best rebound strategy. We still have the biggest army and the best cause.
What I do Know is that if we have the same result at the next Scottish Parliamentary Election we lose our mandate for an independence referendum. So we do not have time.
What I do believe – very strongly indeed – is that if we don’t continually promote independence we won’t provide the political desire for it and to back off from promoting it or talking about it and the next referendum because our opposition shout against it all the time is exactly what our opponents want us to do.
The middle ground in this constitutional debate are only getting one side of it so why should we be surprised when the inevitability of independence which they were accepting is now a receding notion.
galamcennalath at 12.33 gets exactly it in his last sentence.
Calum McKay @ 12.46
The Keith Brown interview could be the guideline to be used in the SNP dealings with the media. Clear points made, untruths highlighted, and from the outset showed that none of brewers snash would be tolerated
@Grouse Beater says: 10 July, 2017 at 9:18 am:
“Breeks: “It is not SNPbad to suggest the SNP should listen.”
Okay, Breeks. I’m listening.
Assuming for the sake of discussion you’re right and the SNP is lacking, what should it do to regenerate dynamism?”
Ach! Grouse Beater, Yer no supposed tae spear ackwart things o thaim.
(owersettin intil the Inglis). “Oh! Grousebeater, you are not supposed to ask awkward things of them.”
I most certainly have not always agreed with things the party hierarchy have done, or had proposed to be done, through the years. I did not, though, air dirty linen on public forums.
I hied myself along to the local branch meeting or to the local constituency association meeting and raised the matter there. As a member I, like every other member, had the right, and the same number of votes as the individual party leadership.
So just what are the motives of any party member who doesn’t raise their doubts at their branches or Constituency Associations?
Of course not all commenters on Wings are SNP members so what is their motives for public criticism on an open forum? Especially, as you have highlighted so well, that they rarely offer anything in any way constructive.
It thus becomes nothing more than an unwarranted attack upon the SG/SNP that is, first of all baseless and secondly offers nothing by way of possible alternative actions.
The fact is the SG/SNP fight tooth and nail at every opportunity and the complainers actual complaint is that they, personally are too bloody lazy to seek out the real news and are complaining because of the lack of the real facts in the Westminster controlled media.
Just a few moments ago I read a news, (sic), item.
So this is NOT a United Kingdom Court as there actually is no such thing as a United Kingdom Legal system. It is the High Court of the Kingdom of England.
Below the line information is that the United Nations claim the Saudi Arabian strikes on Houthi rebels caused thousands of civilian deaths and just what was this, “secret information”, the United Kingdom public were not allowed to see?
Furthermore, why are the United Kingdom media not shouting this from the housetops?
We are constantly either being force fed fake news or conversely not informed of the facts of what is going on.
Breeks @ 12.47
A very interesting proposal Breeks…… I will need to take some time to read it properly if you don’t mind,and comment later….
But you were so very right in one thing… I really really didn’t like the last paragraph…. LOL
I am more for having the Constitution forbid any more political Union’s forever, and any Treaty that Scotland does sign up to that affects Sovereignty must be ratified by referendum every….25years or so!
Which would mean we never get caught like this again.
Even if reunification campaign was successful,it would have a sun set clause.
Which would also be handy for the EU Treaty as well.
Robert Peffers,
I know you are perfectly capable of reading so could you explain to me why, as I’ve written above, the caveated constraints of an independence referendum is tactical genius, that is of course, if you can manage to take your head out of your arse for a minute.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
10 July, 2017 at 12:55 pm
Some people on here are deluding themselves. Or perhaps their intention is to delude us.
Dave, all you’ve actually said is, Scots voted NO in 2014, why did we not and why are we not holding ref2 now?!
That’s not how it works.
“Unlike some others on here I don’t know all the answers. If I did I would be world president and sitting in an independent Scotland.”
You need to get elected first.
Why not do that though Dave? Its only by standing for election and then getting elected, that you have any chance of being World president Dave:D
@Macart
Yes, the Claim of Right, which I think is wonderful and absolutely correct, and then self-determination of the peoples. United Nations Charter itself, which all countries sign up to, the very first Article and second paragraph:
“Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:
… 2 To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;”
Leckie in the National is saying YES and the SNP should stand with Catalonia, and this is in Article 1. The big problem I see is that Scotland has NO representation on the UN, and won’t until we’re Independent.
It’s why, whatever our personal sympathies are, we must stay out of it on any official or semi-official basis, not getting sidelined into anything which can threaten our own right to self-determination. We can’t help them, and they can’t help us.
When Cameron was PM there were a lot of pro-Indy people saying like “yay, Cameron must resign” over the EU Ref. My attitude was be careful what you wish for, he is at heart a democrat, granted the section 30 with little or no problem, and even in his rare speeches about it, did respect that right of the People of Scotland to make our own mind up, to determine our own future. Sadly that was a NO at the time.
May on the other hand, probably the only thing she knows about the UN is the security council and the UK right of veto. Democracy? That’s for the plebs!
@Proud Cybernat says: 10 July, 2017 at 10:24 am:
“All it needs is a date for IndyRef2.”
How the hell can the SG state a date for another indyref when no one, including the EU and Theresa May knows if there will even be a UKexit from Europe or if and when it might happen?
What seems clear is that the chances of Westminster having things all sorted out by the EU stated timeframe in the EU rules is fairly certain. That means the EU projected timeframe will not be met. The EU, by its nature, will then likely extend the timeline to allow the UK time to present their case.
To condense that – the SG cannot legally hold an indyref2 that they have a mandate to do because of the threat of Brexit when no one knows when, or if, there will be a Brexit.
The Mandate the SG got to hold another referendum is dependent upon the threat of Scotland being dragged out of Europe against the will of the Scottish electorate. So until we know if & when there will be a UK exit then that mandate cannot apply.
Yesterday Vince Cable stated publically on the Andrew Marr show that, “Brexit may never happen.”
Not only would the UK, EU, UN not acknowledge a referendum result with no actual UK exit actually on the EU table but neither would the Scottish electorate.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
I won’t say voters have a short attention span, because that’s not quite right. I think most ordinary folks view of the political landscape is quite narrow, time wise – months, a year or so perhaps, both backwards and forwards.
When normal people get on with their normalish lives, they don’t follow every twist and turn of politics like we political geeks do. If events don’t impact on them personally, they get forgotten, or even just ignored. They therefore don’t always see wider pictures, long term agendas, and trends.
Come voting time, many just think about the recent past, the here and now rhetoric, and assess which promises for the immediate future seem credible. Add to this some long term prejudices and core beliefs which may be just as critical.
The first highly fluid part can be won in a very short space of time. A cock up, or unexpected event, can change the result easily, either way!
The second ingrained part needs time, information, discussion, and very gentle persuasion. And I believe when you can flick over someone’s underlying opinions, they will stay changed for a long time.
The YES2 campaign needs time and stead effort. We can’t rely on a short campaign. We need to change enough people’s lifelong views. We need to start soon!
Whoa Breastplate !
Not cool !!
@galamcennalath says:
10 July, 2017 at 11:32 am
=========================
Yes but the Scotsman is local MSM representative of a nasty party whose role in life is to do Scotland down. So it makes perfect sense.
Liz g. @ 1:04
I don’t disagree Liz g, but even supposing you had Holyrood pro Independence and Westminster “persuaded” Independence was in their interests too, you’d still have a large body of drum thumping Unionists and tank commanders to sell on the deal.
But the formal UK confederacy in my head would not be a rubber stamp approval of current UK arrangements, but whole a new confederal agreement between a sovereign Scotland and a sovereign England. To all intents and purposes, Scotland and England would be separate countries, but in a confederal, consensual Union called the UK. Of these two countries, Scotland would be an EU member, England (and Wales) would not. England might not trade directly with Europe, but indirectly through Scotland.
If it was to be Westminster, not Holyrood, singing the praises of this “new” Union to hold their nose and “reconcile” Scotland’s aspirations, and for themselves, facilitate a genuinely deliverable soft Brexit, then I cannot see Unionism creating havoc and Sectarian division in Scotland. If the Westminster parliament has been persuaded that the United Kingdom will still be an entity, an independent Scotland in Europe is a veritable stepping stone back into the EU if the England changes its mind, or a transitional go-between trade mechanism to support England outside the EU, then much of the pro Independence message might be coming from Westminster, reluctant perhaps, but firm nonetheless.
From Europe’s perspective, they can essentially continue to trade with the UK market, but in dealing with EU Policy, they don’t have to deal with a stubborn truculent Westminster government, but a traditionally more flexible Holyrood. They’ve got rid of the awkward UK interference, but kept the trade.
All the song and dance might surround the UK confederacy, which would be the lightweight agreement which gets all the publicity, but on the quiet, Scotland gets back the heavyweight agreement; full and undisputed control of its sovereignty, remaining a full member of the EU, with elevated status as a “funnel” for English trade with Europe.
This “confederal” UK would be a largely toothless arrangement, but a very “British” placebo for existing “British” institutions. A bit like a mini Europe, with National Institutions respected, but pan European Institutions coexisting. I was about to say you might still have a British Army, but perhaps a British Space Agency would be a less controversial suggestion…lol
Yeah, there’s a huge difference between Indy Ref 2 and Independence itself, as I think it was galamcennalath said.
There’s nothing to stop us campaigning for Independence, absolutely nothing. But Keith Brown on whatever, was completey correct when he refused to talk about IR2, as was presumably Kathleen Nutt from The National. Frustration to the enemy!
And yeah also, there can be no set date for IR2, as the following:
1). May may not last 2 weeks as PM
2). There could be another GE within weeks
3). Brexit might be cancelled
4. Corbyn could change Labour’s approach to Brexit and oppose it
5). The UK may be cancelled. Oh, sadly that’s not true yet.
For the officialdom in Scotland it really is wait and see, though I do look forward to what Sturgeon said will happen soon, the case for Independence will be being made again.
@Mr Peffers
“All it needs is a date for IndyRef2.”
How the hell can the SG state a date for another indyref when no one, including the EU and Theresa May knows if there will even be a UKexit from Europe or if and when it might happen?
Now go back and carefully consider what I actually wrote and not what you THINK I wrote. Show me where I have stated or even indicated that the SG should give us a date?
No, Mr Peffers. You will NOT be able to do that because it is not what I wrote. My statement was merely pointing out the bleeding obvious. WHEN the date of IndyRef2 is set (and at some future point it most definitely WILL be set), then the setting of that date will be the catalyst for the YES campaign to go into full throttle.
Now, perhaps it might be more advisable in future if you actually properly reflect on what folks here actually write before going off half-cocked. It seems to be something of a habit with you of late.
Just some friendly advice – you can take or… well, whatever.
@Breastplate: “I and others will criticise the SNP if I or they think they are endangering our independence which they have on a few occasions such as talking about a once in a generation referendum or a once in a lifetime opportunity.”
I think I can explain that one. What I found a lot, and presumably others did as well, was a lot of people who were favourable to Independence but saying like “We’re not ready for it yet, maybe in a few years time”.
The “once in a lifetime” was an attempt to force their hand, make them see the urgency of it. Probably worked to some extent, and at the time there seemed to be no downside I’d guess.
Just as an aside, I used to post saying “I’m non-aligned, never been a member of a party and probably never will”. What did I do? Joined the SNP a few days after the Ref. But I don’t like it, doesn’t suit me to be a member of a party, “washing the dirty linen in public”, I’m of an Independent mind, so I won’t be renewing my membership this September – even though I’ll vote SNP.
Ghillie,
Robert insinuates that I am a troll because I disagree with him, I suggested he was talking crap.
Breeks @ 2.00pm
A good workable solution…..till it doesn’t work!
Do you have any thoughts on dispute resolution?
Glad you mentioned defence…. Trident is a very obvious sticking point for this arrangement.
Holyrood want it gone…. Westminster want to keep it…. Europe has nothing to say about it,how does that play out?
Not nit picking Breeks by the way.Like you, I can see that solutions need to be found.
And I certainly don’t take the line we must shut off completely from England….but they are sneaky buggers in Westminster and I suspect that they don’t see any reason to compromise when,as they see it they can enforce their will.
Remember guys and guyesses, if we don’t decide the agenda on what gets discussed, when, where, and how …. the Unionists certainly will!
Ideally, we want them to be reacting and trying to keep up with events and our agenda, not the other way round.
Best laid plans, and all, but if we don’t try to make the running, we will lose the initiative.
Still not cool Breastplate.
Yesindyref2,
I’ve read many comments on here probably approaching half a million including many of yours and I agree with you when you say you’re not really ready for joining a political party. I still don’t consider myself a political anorak.
@Liz g
But it would be confederal and therefore voluntary, so Scotland could make it a condition of membership that the rUK moves its nukes within 10 years – same as Independence. In all senses Scotland would be Independent, but within a voluntary partnership.
There already is a British–Irish Council, with Ireland a member as well as Northern Ireland – as are Scotland and Wales. But Scotland would then have the same status as Ireland, rather than as a devolved administartion.
At least, that’s one way it could work.
@Breastplate
I did join in Sep 2014 after the Ref, and it did help boost the numbers so I don’t regret that part. But I found any attempt at contribution in the manner Peffers insists on were ignored, and emails up the chain not even acknowledged, let alone answered (bar one from the local MSP which showed they were aware of the trap but also advantage of Smith). It’s all about leaflet stuffing, election business, not strategy or even opinions.
Yeah, not my style!
The BBC ,the muck spreader of fake news
@yesindyref2 @ 2.10
I think that’s a fair summary of where we are.
May comes back from G20, and immediately leaks that she wants a new style of collaboration with Opposition? Have you ever seen a more feeble cover up of ‘the excrement is heading rapidly for the air con, and I want to ensure everyone is covered’?
Must have been getting GTF in a lot of languages, when she was in Hamburg.
They will be doing private economic forecasts, and they must be horrendous, because all the indicators are very scary.
If Labour are true to form, this is their cue to start their annual civil war. Word is Starmer is being sworn into the Privy council, so he can get Brexit updates, and I see Gethins is on the cross party group that wants to lobby for more clarity/say.
BREXIT.”German business bosses’ Brexit warning for PM”
“…….Dieter Kempf, president of the BDI, the federation of German industries, told The Observer: “Defending the single market, a key European project, must be the priority for the European Union.
“Europe must maintain the integrity of the single market and its four freedoms: goods, capital, services, and labour.
“It is the responsibility of the British Government to limit the damage on both sides of the Channel.
“Over the coming months, it will be extraordinarily difficult to avert negative effects on British businesses in particular.”…….”
Sky News:
http://tinyurl.com/yddhs5lu
heedtracker at 1.27
Did you get turned down when you offered to write scripts for the Carry on Films?
Yesindyref2 @ 2.42
Who would pay though?
The idea is fine in principle,but if they are out of Europe,and if what we suspect is true about Scotland’s wealth,then can they afford to agree to relocate Trident or pay the cancellation fees to the US (it’s my understanding that they have already signed up to stuff)?
Would it no be more cost effective to just ensure control of Scotland?
We, or rather control of our resources might actually be their only chance to make a go of being out of the EU,so they aren’t in a position to agree to anything!
Liz g: Once you have sovereignty, everything is negotiable.
Whether Independence comes with the acquiesce of Westminster or without it, you will still have the same issues to discuss and disputes to resolve, but provided you don’t succumb to the folly of trusting Westminster, then I believe there is more to be won through constructive agreement and equitable compromise than petty bickering.
I can actually see a confederal British Army working pretty well.. for joint exercises and defence of the British Isles and possibly NATO deployment, but foreign policy is a whole different ball game naturally. Unilateral deployment and command structure need thought about, but I think modern armed forces are pretty flexible and robust working with international coalitions. At the risk of sounding flippant, we don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We’ll fit in, and do what we can within our means.
As for NATO, Trident, the UN etc, yes indeed there are a lot of grounds for dispute and hard bargaining, but for the first time in 300 years, Scotland would have a seat at the bargaining table, and indeed the casting vote on many of the bargains. Sovereignty is not about the choices you make but who makes them.
That’s only scary if we let James Kelly or Jamie Greene run for President, but that could never, ever, happen… right?
Bottom line is a paper tiger Confederal Union with England to allow some British Institutions to remain and still make sense is not going to dilute our new found sovereignty, but could function as a red, white and blue security blanket for our excitable types.
Just as long as the BBC isn’t one of them, then I’m pretty chilled about it.
@Liz g
But with a confederation, that would all be the problem of Westminster, not ours. If we wanted to buy into defence, perhaps some embassies, even a continuation of some of the “British” or UK institutions,then there would be a negotiated price. If it’s a good deal the SG agree, if not they don’t, or haggle over terms. Or Scotland doesn’t pay for defence, but builds up our own, the rUK pays for the 10 year diminishing lease on Faslane / Coulport, and that’s offset against anything in the way of Services Scotland wants to buy from the UK. Plus of course still the separation asset / debt, but with a less urgent need to finalise it.
Mostly same as for Independence, but the time scale for negotiations could be less urgent, perhaps even less contentious, as both parts would be interested in keeping a confederation.
I’m not saying it’s what I want, but it is an option, same as poor told off Colin’s of a sovereign Holyrood within the UK. This would be a sovereign Holyrood outside the UK but confederated with it, just a tighter arrangement than Salmond envisaged in the Scotland’s Future white paper, where he was looking at sharing.
The SNP wouldn’t be putting any of this forward as their policy I wouldn’t think, except in a similar way to the options paper in December. Their primary policy and push would still be Independence, but they could support other options – again in a similar way to the way Salmond treated Devo Max in 2012 and even 2013. If another party comes forward and proposes this formally, the SG facilitiate it in terms of a referendum as an extra question, suitably laid out with a “gateway” question if neccessary.
Breeks @ 3.36
Aye yer talking me round…..or at least ye were….
BBC efin BBC I am getting the feeling that’s a red line for you nay argument there.
But when you mentioned it,that had me thinking is this no a bit of a hard sell to those who want Indy and want to be seen to get Indy.
Aye, Westminster will have nae reason to wind up the knuckle dragger’s, that’s true (I think that they still would anyway)and it will be their job to sell it to them and England,in which the BBC would no doubt play it’s part.
But Indy supporters….they are no looking for another “arrangement”and they don’t believe a word Westminster or the BBC say.
Which would leave Indy politicos to promote it…. I can see that being looked on as a sell out.
I don’t need to tell you how slippery Westminster could be about jumping on that perception,and wrecking the deal in favour of the status quo!
Not forgetting that even if Scotland and England will for a while pretend this is not really Independence,N Ireland Unionists won’t for there own reasons.
…….. sorry need to go again will pick up later……..
@Liz g
Yeah, it would be a hard sell to Indy supporters. The thing to do is keep pointing out that it’s a voluntary arrangement, and can be terminated by either side at any time, perhaps with a year or 3 notice period, to cover joint bills and contracts – much like the UK with the EU.
The beuaty of both the confederal, and Colin’s argument for a Sovereign Holyrood within the UK, is that Holyrood would indeed be confirmed as Socereign, and could end the arrangement at any time, hence slipping into Independence almost unnoticed. Back door Independence as the Unionists would call it, and tried to call FFA which is a big step short of either Breek’s or Colin’s options.
To kind of put a figure picture on it with underlying public opinions (guess), three options at the current state of play.
1). Independence 47% YES, 53% NO.
2). Breeks confederation 55% YES, 45% NO.
3). Colin’s sovereignty within the UK 60% YES, 40% NO.
And that’s the attraction of considering other options – they’re fairly easily achievable, if enthusiam can be generated. Definitely a gradualist approach, but then so was Devolution itself – look where that’s got us already.
Reliant on an Honest Westminster.
The SNP listens to everything and everybody for any ideas and or opinions on everything, it’s how they mostly get most things right most of the time, but what they can’t do is please everyone all of the time because they’re not God they’re just people doing the best they can with a bad situation while trying to out think the oppositions next moves and find ways of countering them while at the same time planning their own strategy, while at the same time running the country as best they can with dwindling budgets
With every Unionist hand raised against them plus every Unionist media outlet misreporting or not reporting them
the SNP have climbed a peaceful mountain towards Independence other countries who gained their Independence from England could only dream of
There’s much frustration from the more keen and anxious YES folk and that’s understandable (I’d have the referendum tomorrow but it would kill me if we lost it to these monsters) but any doubters should be assured the SNP are not slowing down or letting up or shelving anything they are constantly planning how to proceed and I should say you don’t have to be a member to contribute, anybody can, if you have a thought or an idea email it, I guarantee you somebody reads it and if it has merit it’s used, but remember much of what we say to each other on this forum is read by them too
One more thing, Nicola Sturgeons brain, just like Alex Salmonds never goes on holiday
Just because she’s left the building doesn’t mean she’s not working
Dave McEwan Hill says:
10 July, 2017 at 3:34 pm
heedtracker at 1.27
Did you get turned down when you offered to write scripts for the Carry on Films?
No I wrote them all:D
Quit whining about the world you want and do something positive Dave, sorry, future World President Dave.
To those various “confederalists” I have some sympathy, since it would be a very sensible way forward. It should have been the way forward with Smith, which was a serious lost oportunity. If Unionism had any life in it, it would have grabbed that chance and used it to reform the whole constitutional setup of the UK. As the liberal press of the time fatuously opined from the sidelines.
I’ve said it repeatedly, but I’ll say it again, the problem with the Union is the Unionists. They don’t have any inkling of the need for significant change, let alone an iota of an idea of how it could be achieved. Instead they defend the indefensible with lies and subterfuge. A reactionary conservatism that runs right across the conventional political spectrum.
I have also pondered in moments of whimsy that the whole thing could be settled by a telephone call between Nicola and Theresa. (Just as it could also be between Arlene and the Irish Toiseach.) It could, but it’s never going to happen. The Unionist body politic is just too brittle.
The fly in the ointment from our point of view is the reaction of Joe and Jean Public. As Breeks has noted, they should have been outraged at the democratic deficit that was manifest in the EURef result and what is being perpetrated upon us, but they aren’t. As yet, anyway.
Distracted by the Unionist media machine, which has lied about the EU even more egregiously and for a far longer period than it has done over independence.
It doesn’t actually matter what the EUref decision actually was, FGS, you “Yes-leaver” quibblers and those vainly trying to appease them. It’s the principle of the thing, dammit. Once we are independent, we can revisit that issue and any other we care to anytime we feel like it. Staying in the UK won’t change a damn thing.
As for the SNP, what I can’t understand is why it seems so disheartened by the UKGE result, especially (as DMH and others have rightly pointed out, it provided so little incentive to dedicated independistas in an election where the party was always going to be squeezed anyway).
On the contrary, one definitely got the impression that the SNP would rather not have had any talk about independence. Only one MSP, Sandra White, bothered to come and address the gathered multitude during the last indy march in Glasgow. How disengaged is that?
The SNP could also have come back from the result with a bit more fire in their bellies. They still WON, but you would hardly know it. (Yes, even allowing for the media spin.)
Brexit will be the humbling of the UK, however the media try to present it. I guess that’s what the political arm are counting on finally achieving the missing traction. But too much passivity in the face of that car-crash is not a good place to be. Failing any opposition with a backbone, too much risk of a quiet slide by the public-at-large into meek acceptance of the whole stinking mess instead. I think that’s what is unsettling indy supporters most.
yesindyref2 at 4.16
And we only got devolution conceded to us because we went for independence.
That’s the political reality.
If we settle for anything less than independence we’ll get half of that. Devolution/federalism can be a never ending charade of slicing the sausage thinner and thinner and the sort of devolved powers we will get from now on will be shared powers because any more real devolution makes a unitary state less and less sustainable until independence becomes obviously the only sensible and practical option – and they don’t want that.
Tennis:
I see Andy Murrays name now accompanied by a Union flag on the screen now to indicate Nationality and here was me thinking Wimbledon was not a team Britain event as other players are not having a European flag flashed up beside their names or even flags of their actual nationality, it seems the BBC have decided to award Andy a geographical status as opposed to his country of origin and actual Nationality
Or maybe they have difficulty using the word Scotland or Scottish or Scotsman or Scot
I don’t know why not, it’s easy I just did it several times without any problem whatsoever there
One wonders if Andy perchance were to lose a match would they remove their wee flag and revert to Andys other name when he loses
“Murray The Scot crashes out”
It’s not that I’m picky I just despise every last one of them for their ignorance lack of respect and downright bad manners
Robert J Sutherland at 447pm
Excellent post. I agree with almost all of it. Your analysis pretty much sums up how I think. As far as outrage over brexit goes, I know many folk who are still, but what do they do? shake their fist every day? They were outraged the day after the result, and still are. I am too, but what can I do? The fact is, I think many who do not want to have anything to do with brexit have had their political voices removed.
The ONLY major party that seemed to be opposing brexit was the SNP, but right now they seem hell bent on pursuing what they naively term ‘a good brexit deal for Scotland’. I cannot help but feel betrayal at that. For goodness sake if an SNP Scottish Government with a crystal clear democratic mandate is not going to defend Scotland’s choice in such circumstances, then who will? Scotland voted to stay in the EU, not to get a ‘good brexit deal’, FFS.
It isn’t just the public who should be outraged it is OUR Scottish Government. They should be saying No way is Scotland leaving the EU. Period. I cannot understand why they do not.
Many people I knew were very happy that following the result, they were told the SNP would oppose brexit, but then the SNP started ‘softening’ their language, fudging things. Instead of keeping Scotland in the EU, it became ‘access to the single market’. As Patrick Harvie has pointed out, they are both very different beasties.
No, people are still furious, it’s just that in ordinary life, you cannot walk around venting fury day in and day out. If the SNP believe people are not angry about brexit, then they need to wake up and realise that people are very angry.
Anyway, I agree with your excellent comment overall.
heedtracker at 4.45
You mean like standing for council,standing for parliament, chairing,organising being secretary of my many branches, chairing and organising my constituency association,writing and producing newspapers distributed across my constituency on nine occassions, being a member of the SNP National Council many times,helping organise and run our still functioning YES shop, being election agent many times from the time I was Winnie’s election agent in Hamilton in 1969/70? That kind of thing?
Or answering pratts that make stupid and rude comment on my posts in which not one of my points -and I actually mean not one of my points – is actually mentioned far less addressed. That kind of thing?
Would you like me to put that post up again so you can check if you were actually talking about something entirely different ?
We can do without abusive stuff.
Heidbammer
Looks like your turning into rock.
Any suggestions to get independence or you just one of the sleepers to undermine the cause as see’s fit?
Don’t answer. We know the drill.
@ Dr Jim – I noticed the Union Jack plastered all over Wimbledon whenever Andy Murray is in view. Some people had obviously been given little UJs to wave at the end of his match today. Flags are supposed to be banned in the crowd.
Pathetic.
encouraging words Dr Jim – Lets hope people read and heed them .
yesindyref2 says:
I would say I am very anti-federal because that would mean giving up sovereignty. I am ok with confederation because that would reinforce and clarify Scottish sovereignty.
The problem with any of this is WM and the Greater England Imperialist establish will have absolutely none of it! Significant constitutional change to Westminster just won’t happen.
Just to clear up a forgivable misapprehension, I’m not a confederalist by nature, but pragmatism. It’s not for myself I advocate a confederate sticking plaster, but for those Unionists amongst us who are indefatigable in their support for the Union. I want YES and only YES will do, but I want YES rally’s peaceful and something you can take your kids to.
I would rather have them happily deluded in waving their Union Jacks in powerless impotence at a football match rather than burning Saltires, agitating hatred and civil disorder, and bedevilling Scotland for decades they way they’ve bedevilled Ireland. Let them enjoy their pretendy wee Union while the real Scotland powers forward in Europe and thrives like we’ve never seen before. Union? What union?
Don’t get me wrong the other way either, it’s not a “vote YES and get a free Union Jack”, I’m talking about a formal confederacy option on the ballot in a multi option plebiscite. Because once sovereign Independence is in the bag, then for better or worse, we are back with the double edged sword of democracy ruling a democratic country, and all the concerns we might have about undue influence on our TV screens. Independence isn’t the end of something, it’s just the beginning.
Don’t forget too, a confederal Union stops short of Sovereignty, so you can exit whenever you’re ready. Independent by sovereign constitution, Confederal (or not) by choice.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
10 July, 2017 at 5:18 pm
heedtracker at 4.45
That’s great Dave.
Why are you so uppity though? Probably just plain old territoriality. Internet is entirely democratic Dave, who ever you think you are that’s great but you are going to meet all kinds of everyone online though.
Which is why I don’t get your,
“If we settle for anything less than independence we’ll get half of that. Devolution/federalism can be a never ending charade of slicing the sausage thinner and thinner and the sort of devolved powers we will get from now on will be shared powers because any more real devolution makes a unitary state less and less sustainable until independence becomes obviously the only sensible and practical option – and they don’t want that”
What more devo is coming Dave? I know tories like Gove say there might fishing industry devo but that’s it as far as I can see.
Anyway Dave, its clear you dont like being talked to online and I am sorry to have annoyed you, luvvie:D
And Liz g also…
I’m not advocating that confederal option as THE option for Scotland, just one credible option on a multi option ballot in a plebiscite. If the Unionists wanted it, they’d have to make their case and win a majority for it. Good luck with that.
Just the same as YES and in Europe, and YES but out of Europe.
The problem with the plebiscite is keeping it valid without a technical NO option, because saying no to our own sovereignty is not constitutionally viable. A YES vote with a Confederal UK is as close as they can get to a No vote.
That’s what I mean about the double edged sword of democracy. An all option plebiscite would I hope calm any troubled waters about reasserting of sovereignty, and quietly securing our technical independence, but beyond that, if theres a majority of Scots want a token Union with England and out of the EU, then that’s a decision we’d all have to respect. But that doesn’t mean we’d forfeit our sovereignty or lose our technical independence.
galamcennalath at 6.09
Confederation – ie the Nordic Union is a attractive way forward to sink federal nonsense (just another form of devolution).
A confederation is a arrangement among already independent units in which they voluntarily agree to share services and responsibilities in some areas
A British confederation including ROI has attractions as has Scotland joining the Nordic union. There are members of the Nordic Union who are in the EU and others who are not.
Hamish100 says:
10 July, 2017 at 5:42 pm
Heidbammer
Looks like your turning into rock.
Any suggestions to get independence or you just one of the sleepers to undermine the cause as see’s fit?
Don’t answer. We know the drill.
Who’s rattled your cage?
Indyref2 is scheduled for the end of the Brexit negotiations. Why its this so difficult for you to grasp. Scotland voted no barely 2 years ago.
Its just not feasible to hold them over and over, unless something like our EU citizenship has been lost, because Scots voted no for this ghastly union.
You only get so many shots at Scots referendums. One is probably all you can get per decade. It makes sense too, its likely holding ref2 because Scots voted no in the last one, is just handing it all to yoons to win again and with a higher percentage.
Hope that helps.
@Breeks and @galamcennalath
Indeed.
The advantage of that multi-option ballot is that while the SNP and us can happily support the Indy option, the Unionists – presumably Labour and LibDems – would have to get their UK parties onside with the idea of sovereignty one way or another of Holyrood with confederal or sovereignty within the UK, and probably get it approved by the UK Government of the day, and their input to Ednburgh Agreement the second. Otherwise it would be transparently toothless.
The ball would be in their court, and the racket in their hands!
Advantage Indy.
Just so everyone is clear ….
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation
” A confederation (also known as a confederacy or league) is a union of sovereign states, united for purposes of common action often in relation to other states. “
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism
” Federalism is the mixed or compound mode of government, combining a general government (the central or ‘federal’ government) with regional governments (provincial, state, cantonal, territorial or other sub-unit governments) in a single political system……. It can thus be defined as a form of government in which there is a division of powers between two levels of government of equal status. “
… and perhaps most critically ….
” Federalism differs from confederalism, in which the general level of government is subordinate to the regional level, and from devolution within a unitary state, in which the regional level of government is subordinate to the general level. “
Note, in a confederation, the higher level of government IS SUBORDINATE to the regional level.
Thus, in a UK Confederacy, Westminster would subordinate to sovereign parliaments of Scotland, England, Wales, and NI.
Not till Hell freezes over.
What made me laugh like a drain was when the sun said, Ruthie Baby retired from the army after seriously injuring herself whilst serving her country.
You would think she was in the firing line, Yes, but you would be wron, she hurt her back in a training exercise at Sandhurst!
Teresa Mays back must be against the wall, asking for all party talks , either that or she’s found a big field of Mulberry Bushes , my money’s on the Mulberry Bushes Q the music.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
Yes. I hadn’t read you comment before I put up my later one.
Another interesting thing I spotted on Wiki. The Conferate States of America’s Consitution begins…
” We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity ….. “
So, although they mention federal government, their intention for literally a confederacy of sovereign states. Of course, states rights was for many in the South the whole reason for secession.
@galamcennalath
It’t not well worded, but I think that “regional level of government is subordinate to the general level.” relates to the “devolution within a unitary state”, not confederation or even federation.
The “Once in a generation” thing has been completely misinterpreted by the unionists (as one would expect) to suit their own agenda
we’ve waited over 300 years for this that’s what was meant by “once in a generation”
no one said it would be the last in a generation
Graeme
no one said it would be the last in a generation
Graeme
You need to win though, just once right enough.
Would the 55% accept a ref2 within say the next decade? Older yoon culture would not. Our BBC led media masters would certainly not.
Without Brexit, youre essentially waiting for next gen Scots.
Brexit’s the key.
The media and the bbc have seized on a off the cuff remark made in the early hours of the 15th , after a defeat that probably was a whole lot closer than we were told it was , and used it as their standard in order to beat the independence movement about the head for the last three years , well as far as i recall i didnt say to anyone well thats it f/k it end of story , and i dont know anyone who simply gave up , the first thing i would say if asked would be OK the Unionists Lied all through their campaign, WHERE IS YOUR VOW ? are we the only ones expected to respect the result .I dont f/kn think so . NOW PISS OFF .
Hamish100,
“rock—
you tell people that you dont read the papers and tell folk not to read the National.
What does that make you?”
What is inconsistent about not reading anti-independence rags and warning independence supporters not to give their cash to a fake “independence supporting” rag and instead use the money saved to print and distribute WOS articles?
WHERE IS YOUR VOW ? are we the only ones expected to respect the result .I dont f/kn think so . NOW PISS OFF
Indeed. So why do you think the SNP did not then announce ref2, say after the Smith Commission rubbish got booted around and then slithered out of the Commons perhaps?
Because ref2 would have been lost again and completely, for a generation, decade, 3 terms of Westminster parliaments etc, maybe.
Two equal nations working together but where either party can leave whenever they want! Is that not what we are supposed to have now with Kingdoms within the Treaty of Union?
I want full Independence! I do not want to get into another arrangement of any sort with England just so unionists can pretend we are all one country again. That is what we are trying to break out of. I would never trust England as they have no idea what equality means in any context. They would find a way to be in sole charge again and continue to strip us of our assets.
Big Phil,
“I honestly think OOR Government should tell all voters that voted tory,(in any colour), they should forfeit all concessions mitigated by the only people that care for us. tractors proudscot buts…… fuckin areholes.”
As long as “OOR Government” protects selfish voters from Westminster policies, Scotland will not have a Yes majority.
It is time the SNP stopped governing and concentrated on independence.
Before it becomes fully entrenched into the Westminster system.
The SNP missed a golden opportunity and deserves criticism at the moment.
Or do we want ‘New SNP’, without principles and only interested in power?
Instead of preparing for independence, Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
Then she got outsmarted by Saint Theresa’s snap general election.
Admit it or not, the independence cause has suffered a major setback.
A second independence referendum before Brexit is complete is now highly unlikely.
yesindyref2,
“Ah, I see. A column in the Daily Record doesn’t help. Which is why Brian Wilson who had a column in the 80s found it didn’t help him in the 1987 General Election, where there was overall a swing of just 3.4% to Labour. A lot of people here just said he was a publicity hound.
Oh wait, Brian Wilson took Cunninghame North off the useless Tory John Corrie with a 14.5% swing, over 4 times the national UK average.
Oh.”
It would have been better if the tractor Brian Wilson had been refused SNP membership, like Dugdale.
heedtracker,
“The Guardian’s just another tory media outfit that passionately hates everything Scottish democracy”.
Do you keep on buying and reading it for the sole purpose of moaning about it here?
Hardly any other poster ever mentions it here.
yesindyref2 says:
It may be grammatically correct but perhaps a bit convoluted English. Yes.
But I think the meaning is clear.
” Federalism differs from confederalism, in which [meaning confederatism] the general level of government is subordinate to the regional level, and [federalism differs] from devolution within a unitary state, in which [meaning devolution] the regional level of government is subordinate to the general level. “
So devolution precise opposite of confederalism. Federalism lies between the two.
Delvolution – the high level is always superior and can take back powers from the lower level.
Federation – the high and low levels split powers and each has constitutional rights.
Confederation – the individual states in the lower level retain sovereignty and agree cooperation through a high level,
It’s all thoroughly academic because WM would only every contemplate limited devolution.
My preferred future would be iScotland as a full member of the single market (not just access) and in customs union with the EU, or, full member.
If iEngland screws up Brexit and ends up with very limited access to the ESM, I think iScotland has to accept WTO trading and customs with iEngland. In the long term, the EU and all its world trade agreements in place will be worth more.
IEngland after a crash and burn Brexit may not be producing what Scotland currently takes, and may not affford to buy much from Scotland!
If it’s a choice between EU and rUK, I would take the safer bet of EU every time!
Rock says:
10 July, 2017 at 8:15 pm
heedtracker,
“The Guardian’s just another tory media outfit that passionately hates everything Scottish democracy”.
Do you keep on buying and reading it for the sole purpose of moaning about it here?
Hardly any other poster ever mentions it here.
Sadly no, I dont buy it anymore, 3 or 4 decades of the Graun and its turned out to be just another tory rag, what detests Scottish democracy.
But Rock, may I take this opportunity to remind you, WoS is a politics and media blog, that lets its readers btl comment, on media and politics.
I realise that youre an odd chap and NO vote, with nothing better to do with your life that spread UKOK FUD btl, but I hope this helps.
Dave McEwan Hill,
“What I do know is that our leadership is more than aware of the serious kick up the arse we have just received and are forensically measuring the effect and are consulting widely with all of us the best rebound strategy.”
Who the SNP leadership blame for “the serious kick up the arse we have just received”?
Without knowing the cause of the illness, we cannot find a cure.
Breastplate,
“Robert Peffers,
I know you are perfectly capable of reading so could you explain to me why, as I’ve written above, the caveated constraints of an independence referendum is tactical genius, that is of course, if you can manage to take your head out of your arse for a minute.”
Robert Peffers is an aggressive verbal bully here.
Tory Ann-Marie Morris describes UK leaving EU without deal as “real n***** in the woodpile”.
No matter how hard Tories try to maintain a facade of decency and respectability, they inevitably lower their guard and expose their true nature!
What is also telling is, apparently other Tories present didn’t flinch.
Independence was a simple straightforward choice Yes or NO
We voted No and all promises have been broken and worse than any of that we are being dragged out of the EU without our consent .
We have since gave our Scottish reps not 1 or 2 but 3 times , a mandate to have a referendum after the talks have finished or broken down.
Now we have had 63% against leaving and i believe they will vote Yes in the next referendum .
I am furious with the SNP regarding their ” Inactions” during the last GE . So what that it was a surprise . It should have made NO difference to the Scottish govt . They have their mandate USE the fecker or lose the country.
Every interview i saw SNP politicians avoiding the Indi word . No wonder folk didnt bother voting . Whats the point when all we do is react to WM and the MSM … I was disgusted that they couldn’t put a decent argument together and now we have more feckin tories than ever.
I dragged folk out to vote and we still lost my local vote to Labour . FFS how bad can it get.
All of you who keep saying wait till we see the damage of brexit are the lucky feckers with jobs and your health. My friends are poor and in terrible health and are abused by a disgraceful govt . We are seeing this shit every day NOW . and it wont get better. Some of you have no idea what being on the bottom rung feels like and am shocked .. I’ve met Wingers , your better than this .
This place is a talking shop for the same old arguments over and over again . We will never learn and i am a baw hair from giving up..
The SNP have been great with the sticking plasters but are useless now. Pandering to the most hostile MSM i have ever witnessed. If we need to wait any longer we will never have our re run
And We have given our mandate 3 times …. How many do we need ???
If we cannot win now we will never win . After brexit we will be OUT of the EU , We voted to stop that by the a huge margin .
NO More shitty excuse . THE EU Have told us there is a timetable and it will be kept no matter what the UK govt do . We know the final dates so why the wait ?
please dont bother answering with any more excuses i am sick of them.
The greens are the only party with a real Indi belief , or so it looks . Every time its brought up our lot run …. They at least have the guts to face the MSM …
heedtracker,
“I realise that youre an odd chap and NO vote, with nothing better to do with your life that spread UKOK FUD btl, but I hope this helps.”
If YOU had anything better to do with YOUR life, you wouldn’t be moaning about The Guardian on here, day in and day out.
Who in Scotland cares about The Guardian?
*Wanders in – sits down*
Is it all nice and friendly here this evening, full of witty bonhomie and good natured banter?
Small note regarding the last GE .
Most folk i spoke to who did not vote said the same things .
1- Whats the point . Even with 56 mp’s we were ignored
2- We already voted in the referendum for remain. This election s for England . It wont change anything here,
3- Because of the lack of anything for us YES supporters to vote for .. The SNP , as good as they are , sound just like the rest. Labour and Cons are leavers and no one here even mentions Libs.
These folk dont do Wings or the like . They see through the shit on TV . Check the polls folk know a pile of shite when its thrown at them daily.
They are not political anoraks and only want whats best for the country . Leaving the EU is going to be a real shitbomb and they recognise that. They voted accordingly and now are told to wait.
just saying .
heedtracker,
“Sadly no, I dont buy it anymore, 3 or 4 decades of the Graun and its turned out to be just another tory rag, what detests Scottish democracy.”
You were taken for an idiot for 3 or 4 decades by The Guardian.
Now you and other gullible independence supporters are being taken for idiots by the fake “independence supporting” The National.
You will realise it when it is too late.
Paula Rose,
“*Wanders in – sits down*
Is it all nice and friendly here this evening, full of witty bonhomie and good natured banter?”
Hope you are doing a great job as an SNP councillor.
The National is the only visual presence we have on the news stands. It’s not perfect, sometimes their mistakes drive me up the wall, but it’s all we’ve got.
If it’s good enough for Alex Salmond, it’s good enough for me.
Richard Duncan,
“All of you who keep saying wait till we see the damage of brexit are the lucky feckers with jobs and your health. My friends are poor and in terrible health and are abused by a disgraceful govt . We are seeing this shit every day NOW . and it wont get better. Some of you have no idea what being on the bottom rung feels like and am shocked .. I’ve met Wingers , your better than this .”
You describe very well the several pompous clueless “sovereign” armchair pundits posting here.
Rock (20th May – Becoming the squirrel),
“I can guarantee that we will lose again if we waste resources on trying to convert the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English instead of the downtrodden folks in the schemes.
The unionists have already moved in there while our armchair pundits here have been stupidly trying to embrace Tories to our cause.”
Paula Rose says:
With almost 350 comments? Nae, chance. 🙂
harry mcaye,
“The National is the only visual presence we have on the news stands. It’s not perfect, sometimes their mistakes drive me up the wall, but it’s all we’ve got.
If it’s good enough for Alex Salmond, it’s good enough for me.”
Alex Salmond’s column must have had a negative effect on his constituents for him to lose his seat.
£425000 money for Brexit to Belfast via Glasgow
Tory in Scotland. What did Davidson know?
Former Scottish Vice Chair of the Tories?
Question time for Davidson
https://www.channel4.com/news/the-400000-donation-to-pro-brexit-campaign
Richard Duncan,
“These folk dont do Wings or the like . They see through the shit on TV . Check the polls folk know a pile of shite when its thrown at them daily.
They are not political anoraks and only want whats best for the country . Leaving the EU is going to be a real shitbomb and they recognise that. They voted accordingly and now are told to wait.”
Rock (3rd December 2016 – There’s no other way)
“In my view, giving any impression that Scotland could get a special deal is being dishonest.
Talk straight and then let the people decide.
Decent working and unemployed classes will listen favourably, as we saw in the first referendum.
The vast majority of the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes and English settlers (most of whom fit into the first two categories) will never vote Yes.
Don’t let them blackmail us.
The last referendum was lost due to time and resources wasted on them when they could have been more usefully spent on a RIC like campaign.
Out of those categories, the minorities which are in favour of independence have already convinced themselves and don’t need any further encouragement.”
Rock – I presume your hope is genuine.
@galamcennalath
Yes, sorry, I mis-read your posting.
A really good read and worth subscribing to as part of the build up to Indyref2.
https://iscot.scot/subscribe/
Never interupt your enemy when they are making mistakes.
I’m sure there’s an element of that in Nicola’s current strategy.
And just to lighten things a bit, here’s a perfect example of someone doing just that. James O’ Brien letting a Leave voting bottom feeder rip himself a new one. Hilarious.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/james-obrien-brexit-voter_uk_59638b97e4b0615b9e9319e7
BBC ,the muck spreaders of fake news
For your delectation and delight, Wingers, a mahoosive howler committed by the UK Foreign Office, now recorded for posterity in ‘The Infamous Ledger’:
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY
Gosh, PR, that’d be the only thing that’s genuine about him, that and the pressing need to prove to everyone that ever doubted that he is indeed an utter arsehole.
But enough of him for one night. Time to cut the toe nails or do something else more rewarding.
O/T.
http://www.facebook.com/martinjameskeatings/posts/483910905293227?pnref=story .
heraldnomore – I’ve had spats with Rock but I’m sure he is being genuine, if a bit out of the loop as to what went on.
Scottish electorate engagement with the EU:
Elections for MEPs in Scotland has generated voter turnouts of c.25-30%. That’s how much the EU matters to your average Scottish voter.
It’s distant. It’s nothing to do with them.
Even for the EU referendum – where people like me were motivated to vote Remain to dilute WM power and hopefully force a Scotland votes Remain and England votes Leave situation – voter turnout in places like Glasgow and Dundee ( YES cities) were 56% and 63% respectively. Lower than the voter turnout in England.
Until the effect of leaving the Single Market is felt in the wallet or purse, most people couldn’t give a fig about leaving the EU. Even YESSERS like me remember the snubs from the EU with their: “Scotland is nothing to do with us, the UK is our member state” and “an indy Scotland would have to rejoin the EU” attitude from Eurocrats..
The fact that Scotland’s Remain vote was ignored by WM is an issue about Scottish sovereignty being treated with contempt by UK Govt, but if there’s an indyref2 and it’s run as vote YES to keep Scotland in the EU ( or to rejoin the EU) I cannot see it being a winning strategy. As the figures quoted above show, apathy reigns supreme regarding the EU.
If indyref did happen, it must be run on the basis of Scottish sovereignty. Putting the power to decide how Scotland is run into the hands of the people of Scotland.
Letting the people of Scotland decide on EU / Single Market, Nuclear weapons, constitutional matters and everything else – AFTER WE BECOME INDEPENDENT.
Voting YES for independence won’t decide any of those things. When Scotland has already become independent, then Scotland’s people can decide what sort of Scotland the people want to have.
Uncertainty about those issues won’t matter, as long as people have economic confidence about independent Scotland. That a YES vote won’t make them or their family worse off financially and preferably better off.
Richard Duncan at 832pm,
Simply marvellous post. What you said is absolutely correct.
@yesindyref2 says: 10 July, 2017 at 2:51 pm:
” … But I found any attempt at contribution in the manner Peffers insists on were ignored, and emails up the chain not even acknowledged, let alone answered”
What did you expect when you couldn’t be bothered to read the rule book and you thus went about things in totally the wrong way.
Furthermore, you did not understand properly what, “Peffers insisted upon”, for what I have explained on Wings so many times has nothing to do with, “emails up the chain”, or complaining about how things are done to branch & constituency office holders.
After all what you are complaining about is the way those office holders are conducting branch and constituency business. I’ve explained it in detail until I’m getting blue in the face.
You go to the branch meeting properly prepared to do business in the proper manner. That is you draw up a proposal, or an amendment to someone else’s proposal, and you get some support for it before taking it to the meeting.
No one can hope to propose anything unless they are seconded. Otherwise it is treated exactly as the complaint of just one individual.
Draw up your proposal or amendment and then set up someone to second it – you usually find others with the same, or similar. ideas in any group.
That’s how you get something put on the agenda and not by going to the meeting and complaining about how they are running things.
The way to do this is to introduce your proposal or amendment when the chair asks, “Is there any other business”. It is only fair that when someone proposes something new that the members get a chance to think about it. If only to understand what it is all about.
So when, “Any Other Business”, is called you say yes and present you proposal to the meeting via the chair. Your seconder seconds it and that means it must then be put on the agenda for the next meeting where it will be considered, debated and may require to be voted upon. That’s how meetings are conducted.
The point is that the chairperson is not the boss and those attending the meeting are all part of the meeting – they are not an audience – they are the meeting.
The proposal may get opposed but the person who opposes it must also have a seconder. In will then be debated and go to a vote.
Perhaps there may also be an amendment proposed by someone but that too must have a seconder and be debated and voted upon.
Things must be done in a business like manner. It just isn’t good enough to bleat complaints and expect to get someone else to take action.
If you want to be an active part of the party then you must take part in the party business and these local branch meetings are the places where party policies begin.
So there you go, “Peffers”, never, in a month of Sundays, ever insisted you go along to the branch or constituency meetings with a tirade of complaints and expect them to be treated as other than complaints by individuals.
After all the party is probably totally immune to complaints as the entire Westminster Establishment, the MSM and the broadcasters are complaining about the SNP on a permanent basis.
Rock at 9.16
Alex Salmond didn’t do a column in the National till after he lost his seat.
His article last week on the economy was first class
‘The poorest households, with incomes of less than £20,000 per year, were much more likely to support leaving the EU than the wealthiest households, as were the unemployed, people in low-skilled and manual occupations, people who feel that their financial situation has worsened, and those with no qualifications.
Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver. Other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree. In contrast, support for leave was just 10 points higher among those on less than £20,000 per year than it was among those with incomes of more than £60,000 per year, and 20 points higher among those aged 65 than those aged 25.
Support for Brexit varied not only between individuals but also between areas. People with all levels of qualifications were more likely to vote leave in low-skill areas compared with high-skill areas. However, this effect was stronger for the more highly qualified. In low-skilled communities the difference in support for leave between graduates and those with GCSEs was 20 points. In high-skilled communities it was over 40 points. In low-skill areas the proportion of A-level holders voting leave was closer to that of people with low-skills. In high-skill areas their vote was much more similar to graduates.
Groups in Britain who have been ‘left behind’ by rapid economic change and feel cut adrift from the mainstream consensus were the most likely to support Brexit. These voters face a ‘double whammy’. While their lack of qualifications put them at a significant disadvantage in the modern economy, they are also being further marginalised in society by the lack of opportunities that faced in their low-skilled communities. This will make it extremely difficult for the left behind to adapt and prosper in future’
https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities?gclid=Cj0KEQjwy4zLBRCOg6-4h6vs3cUBEiQAN-yzfiO2T_QVaNXyr1VzSLi-HaZ6uccx07Q6BJKiIeCevMUaAkwH8P8HAQ
JRF provides an excellent analysis of the Brexit vote. Many disenfranchised communities – all Thatcher’s grandchildren-had their industrial heartlands ripped out by the UK internal economic model over 3 decades (nothing to do with the EU) and have now voted for even more disinvestment.
There will be no good Brexit deal.All that will happen is that when the UK leaves the EU it will have less trading opportunities with the EU that is has at the moment. EU funding will dry up by 2020 for many inward investment programmes and the UKOK global trade in biscuits and jam won’t plug the funding gap.
The most interesting aspect of the JRF is the scant attention given to the unanimous vote to remain in the EU by Scotland the country. Is Scotland a country or is Scotland a region- it cannot be both and regarded interchangeably as either depending on the requirement of the UKOK government. Scotland is allowed to be a country when it’s the Commonwealth games for example or when the kilt and bagpipes are required for entertainment value. Beyond that Scotland isn’t allowed to be a country in command of its own affairs.
It is stuck in an extremely dysfunctional ‘family’ relationship with England and its other regions/ countries (who are also infantilised by this arrangement). This is not the equal partnership that we were promised if we voted NO during Indyref1. The Brexit vote has neatly captured that conundrum. If we are an equal partner -which would be the norm for any country that has a constitutional arrangement with another country- there would be transparency about the strength of our economy and our vote to remain in the EU would be respected.
OT
Andy Murray is Scottish. Johann Konta is Australian. Zola Budd is South African. Henman is English. God knows what the English cricket team is made up of.
I don’t believe an indyref is the best strategy at all. I still prefer the assertion of Scottish sovereignty while part of the Union. Political sovereignty first. I think economic sovereignty would soon follow. A two stage process.
I bet you think that’s the wrong way round. No. People – especially older people – fear financial risk, they would go for political sovereignty if they didn’t need to take an economic risk of full economic independence.
Economic independence will follow as eventually the penny will drop that political sovereignty without economic sovereignty doesn’t work as well as full economic and political sovereignty.
And I’m not convinced there will be an indyref. The SNP is desperate not to have one – as they are not confident they would win.
That’s why no rush for one from Nicola Sturgeon. Sometimes by waiting an opportunity arises. Sometimes, you can wait too long, and the best chance has gone. She’s made the decision to wait, so we’ll see what happens.
It’s clear the SNP / Nicola Sturgeon will want to be the central figure in any YES campaign. Already the SNP is like the Nicola Sturgeon party. In some ways that’s not a bad thing, as she is a very competent and experienced politician. But that’s for party politics. The bad GE result for the SNP – and especially voter disengagement from the SNP – must have been a shock. It’s a lesson that must be learned, that the people won’t just vote for them because they are the SNP, they must give people practical reasons to vote SNP, such as Scottish sovereignty within the Union or Scottish sovereignty without the Union.
Meaningless slogans don’t work. The SNP GE campaign slogan was an insult to the intelligence. Scottish voters are more clued up now, especially those inclined to vote SNP. The SNP need to earn their corn. I would even go so far as to say, that an SNP led YES would taint a YES campaign. It will become party political. SNP v Tory/Labour/LibDems AGAIN.
YES should be separate. A YES campaign by people who are not currently professional politicians, or at least especially not an SNP-led campaign for people to vote YES.
But SNP members, including politicians, would all be welcome to support a YES campaign as guest speakers.
And as Craig Murray suggests, international political observers must monitor the BBC etc, long before a vote is cast. No point moaning about bias when it’s too late.
I sense here a fundamental difference of approach underlying the various comments here.
Rather like the generals of the 1st World War, there seem to be the gradualists who believe in “bite and hold”, that attrition will eventually win the day, and the optimists, who believe that “one last push” will provide the breakthrough that will see their opponent routed.
The truth likely lies somewhere in between. Careful management is necessary, but not enough. As DMH rightly observes, we’ve only got the little devo we have because we looked like getting independence. Sold short every time, so why deliberately aim low now?
Personally I believe a showdown between the SG and UKG will eventually be necessary, and sooner rather than later. Probably with the Great Fat Repeal Bill. And people will have to come off the fence, one way or another. It will be time for real leadership, not focus-group navel-gazing.
But right now, please, put this multi-option referendum monster in its proper hole in the ground with a stake through its heart. As for confederation, I have my own submission to the Smith Commission on that lost opportunity. Read it in all its naive hopefulness, and weep! Some kind of loose confederation might be an interesting option, but only after independence, not before. Glue that could hold rUK at arm’s length from the EU, as they wish. (Not that the Unionists would thank us if that’s what eventually happens.)
colin alexander says:
So you hate the SNP. But you want ref2. And SNP members can be guest speakers.
Thanks Colin.
You and Rock should go on stage:D
Capella @ 5.43
Re Wimbledon, I am fairly confident the people waving Union flags were not given them. I was there on Friday when Murray was playing. I don’t recall seeing any for sale in the Shop either. Much too tacky to be honest for the LTA to be selling flags on sticks, hehe. I am a massive fan of tennis and Murray, which kind of goes without saying. I have been lucky enough to be a couple of times before. I sat on Murray Mound watching him win on Friday. I never saw and have never seen any one giving out flags. I believe you are allowed to take in small flags…not flagpole size. Some folk had Union flags and or Saltires.
Anyway, he’s through to the Quarters, hurrah!
(I would add that we came across plenty well to do folk that were just there for the Pimms and strawberrys. Heard a couple of folk moaning about lots with no interest at all in the tennis. We were sitting next to two ladies on the Mound early afternoon watching Heather Watson who were right out of Ab Fab who talked incessantly about everything but tennis for 90 mins, apart from 3 games in ‘oh the Brit (didn’t know her name) is winning’ and a set later ‘who is the girl she’s playing?’…just Azarenka! Grrr,)
Phronesis 10.42
Sorry but i find that article rubbish. Even the thickest idiot in my area knows Brexit will be a disaster for Scotland. Most of us Scots are poor. low waged and we were the one who voted YES remember.
The middle class and comfy pensioners ruined our hopes.
Go out and go to the schemes and ask folk . They dont have house phones and only buy the rags for the horse and fitba . And they do vote unless they feel its pointless like last time.
Feckin experts always have something to say . And as usual its pish …
These are the folk with disabilities and larger than two kids families. Mostly single parents trying their best while this govt attacks them in every way possible .
Folk are sick being told what they are and what they do .. we are all individuals and its a human trait to go against the grain when lectured by so called authorities .
People here and in the schemes i visit dont need their homes burnt down to teach them a lesson about fire . They dont need to suffer more to force them to change their minds . They can see for themselves and far too many people think they can talk for them but they never listen . Feck their polls and stats , they are constantly wrong .., Trump anyone …. BREXIT ffs.
Thats whats wrong every one is an expert.
Foodbanks. Low wages. Shit conditions . etc etc … these effect the low and poor not the feckers who class themselves as middle class. And that lot know Brexit is gonna hurt them .
63% is a huge amount on favour for remain. The working class will will vote yes again and the rest know better now .
🙂
Why the hell are we waiting !
colin alexander @ 22:59,
Hi Colin. I am so looking forward to that upcoming announcement of the formation of your new political party, the UIP. “Unionists for Independence Party”. (Or should it be URIP, “Unionists for Radical Independence Party”?)
With all your sharp analytical skills, won’t be long before you’ll all be in Holyrood and WM in large numbers telling Nicola and Theresa how things jolly well have to be, and your Super Devo MaxiUK will be a wonder to behold.
Or something.
The Or something Party, sounds perfect Colin:D
@Richard Duncan
“We will never learn and i am a baw hair from giving up.”
Don’t ever do that Richard, you are needed not just for Independence but for your community too.
The SNP have taken their eye off the ball, I doubt they ever believed that England would vote to leave the EU and Scotland vote by 62% to remain. It looked like a gift.
The reality though was a little different, just as many leavers abandoned voting Yes so as they could leave the EU as did those remainers that joined.
I think that this was a shock to the SNP and despite calling for another referendum and the right to have one, with a back up plan in place if refused then another grenade was thrown at them. A General Election.
What followed was much disarray, and it’s possible that the Tories could have planned for this all along. The three Unionist parties in Scotland all fought on the same ticket “NO MORE REFERENDUMS”..
Davidson in particular insisted that the “SNP never stop talking about a referendum, instead they should get on with the day job.”. It was all lies of course and that’s what maybe caused them to talk little of it.
The SNP error was probably back in June 2016, maybe it’s then that the Yes campaign should have been regalvanised with encouragement from the SNP. Send a warning to Westminster that the people of Scotland will take back our Independence if you attempt to rip us out of the EU?
What’s done is done, not many then were predicting a referendum this year, nor I suspect were many suspecting a hard Brexit. Cameron was still in charge and a lot of water has passed under the bridge since that day.
We move forward from where we are now as there is no other choice is how I feel. I hope you will nevr give in, we need your and those that you know support as well.
We need all of Scotland’s support and we need people like you to make that happen. Stick around, wonders can be worked.
Flags are not allowed at Wimbledon. They are among the items prohibited. On the official prohibited guide. Could list them. It could be on the official website.
Nadal out. A shocker.
The schemes do not come out to vote. Another shocker. 55% at the Referendum. Lower turnout. 85% total turnout. People struggling to survive. Sometimes do not turn out to vote. They have given up all hope.
YES is still winning, it just needs a relatively small swing. Bit like tennis. It ebbs and flows. Just waiting for a swell, a high tide to get it over the line.
@heedtracker
My Remain vote was based on two factors:
1.dilution of WM power
2. The hope that the EU vote would go the way it did, provoking a constitutional crisis that would lead to Scottish sovereignty. At the time I believed via indyref2 cos that’s what the talk was of.
Having given it further consideration, at this point in time, I think a push for political sovereignty without pushing for 100% independence will achieve more.
Indyref would be all or nothing. It is winnable. It’s also possible to lose. As I said, the SNP don’t seem confident of winning and they have more canvassing / opinion seeking power than I do.
However, I think whether achieved or rebuffed a push for sovereignty for Holyrood is a win / win situation, as it will lead to an even stronger belief that Scotland is better off running its own affairs.
I think that would lead to independence one way or another.
I see one of Colonel Ruth Davidson`s Conservative and Unionist MP`s has made a total horses arse of himself in the commons chamber at the mother of all parliaments in front of millions of viewers,
Luke Patrick Graham Member of Parliament for Scottish seat Ochil and South Perthshire,
the gimp got up with his sunday best new suit on and was just starting to bash away at the usual SNP bad and the lack of SNP in the chamber,
when deputy speaker,Lindsay Hoyle,stood up and told Luke Patrick Graham Member of Parliament for Scottish seat Ochil and South Perthshire,in the most solicitous way,
`that this debate was under EVEL rules and concerned only England and Wales and had nothing to do with Scotland`,
the boy and his new suit slunk down into the green benches while his fellow Eng/Wal Tories tried to look elsewhere,
the white settlers of Ochil and South Perthshire voted for this unionist simpleton
instead of a first class MP like Tasmina.
colin alexander says:
10 July, 2017 at 11:42 pm
@heedtracker
I think youre just another chancer Colin. But at least youre not trying to start fights all the time like your fellow oddity Rock.
It may all work but if this farce union is so healthy and happy, why does it take so much sheer out and out fraud on us all Colin?
Why all the trolling around btl, trying to pick fights like Rock, or whatever it is you think you’re achieving.
Personally I’d have thought all the tory BBC, STV, 37 newspapers, all radio stations etc would be enough for yoon culture in the Scotland region but maybe you just have to nail down btl internet too.
Good luck
yesindyref2 says:
10 July, 2017 at 6:42 pm
@Breeks and @galamcennalath
Indeed.
“The advantage of that multi-option ballot is that while the SNP and us can happily support the Indy option, the Unionists – presumably Labour and LibDems – would have to get their UK parties onside……”
No, you misunderstand my chronology.
Scotland first reasserts its constitutional sovereignty, that sovereignty being legitimate, but incompatible with the Union is the justification for putting Scotland into stasis, a temporary constitutional void, no longer in Union that cannot accommodate our sovereignty but not quite Independent either. In that constitutional no-mans-land, we hold a multi option plebiscite to determine whether we reengage our constitution as an Independent country in Europe, an Independent country out of Europe, or an Independent country with or without a confederal arrangement with England.
The point is that Independence is already a technical reality when you enact Scottish sovereignty to begin the process. The plebiscite is in part to choose the constitutional direction we take, but more importantly, it simultaneously gives democratic ratification to our sovereign independence. (Not that it needs it, but it helps big time with International recognition).
If the Unionists have a worthwhile option to vote for in the plebiscite, a confederal UK, the United Kingdom they’re so keen on can survive as an entity, but not with the problematic merged sovereignty we have at present, but with a new Confederal arrangement which properly protects and respects Scotland’s sovereignty.
Without that option, and being a credible option, there’s a chance the Unionists would shun the plebiscite and dispute Scottish sovereignty. They’d lose, but why risk the disruption? Give them a viable option to support and engage with.
If however Westminster is persuaded that Scottish Independence is unavoidable, and legally it is, then Westminster knows it cannot prevent Scottish Independence, and then the game changes from defending the Union, game over, into getting the best arrangement possible with an Independent Scotland.
That “best arrangement possible” could see Scotland staying in the EU, but functioning as a buffer state come go-between for trade between Europe and England.
England gets to trade with Europe through a special free trade arrangement with Scotland, which gives England a soft Brexit and back door way back into Europe at some later date if they reconsider Brexit. Europe gets rid of their awkward rude boy Westminster government throwing spanners into the works over EU Policy, but doesn’t lose the English trade.
Scotland gets EU membership, a Westminster government reluctant perhaps but resigned to being constructive about Scottish Independence, we have free trade with Europe and conditional “free port” status for English trade. It wouldn’t be all English Trade of course, but a route to Europe’s free market for trade that wanted to avoid tariffs and customs.
Europe can draw comfort that other countries don’t see England benefitting from EU membership without being a member, because the presence of Scotland as an intermediary state is pretty much a one – off scenario unlikely to be repeated elsewhere.
The grubby bit might see Scotland carrying the can for immigration, custom Union, freedom of movement etc, the “United Kingdom” confederation might technically comply with Europe’s four freedoms, but only because Scotland respects them where England has different criteria, but the exact details of that need to be hammered out, but there is a deal to be made.
@Robert J. Sutherland, Dr Jim, Heedtracker etc etc.
It’s getting boring, people attacking the commentator instead of analytically criticising the comment. Not just with me, but attacks on others too if they dare disagree with the hard core indyref is the only way / SNP can do no wrong, believers.
Why do youse think it’s your website or that you decide what people can and can’t say?
It’s Stu’s website and if he thinks anyone is a troll or just out to cause trouble then it’s up to him to decide that and take action if necessary.
If youse want to run the show, get your own website that youse run. Otherwise you are just a guest on someone else’s website, same as me.
It’s water off a duck’s back to me. I’ve been slagged umpteen times from Unionists all through the 2014 campaign, so it’s just boring by now. Boring and disappointing. I expected better from my political allies.
Mibbie Churchill was right efter aw. Your enemies are the ones at your back, in your own side. The others are the political opposition.
I know most of you know this so don’t think I’m teaching you to suck eggs. However in my opinion anybody (at all) that addresses this character going by the name of “colin alexander” needs their heads examined.
He has more than one name as it seems he didn’t know how to capitalise it every time he posted, sometimes it could have been “COLIN ALEXANDER” or even “colin Alexander”. There have been others but I can’t be arsed looking for them. LOL
Now, do you think this is his wee joke?
He’s the most disruptive troll to have been on this website for a long time and never gives in, most people know that now so there is no need to combat any “argument” he makes. that would be pointless, he’ll ignore your argument.
Just ignore the troll, he’s not worth it.
Mibbie Churchill was right efter aw. Your enemies are the ones at your back, in your own side. The others are the political opposition.
I think Churchill would have used that to describe you though Colin. My Grandad says Churchill also used to say, keep buggering on.
I like that.
I Like the use of your faux Scottish vernacular Colin. What a hoot you lot are.
Breeks & yesindyref2
Sorry to have left mid conversation earlier on.
Anyhoo kind of glad I did because catching up has helped me work out what I think about your suggestions Breeks.
While I can see the merit of what you are proposing and I am all for putting Sovereignty front and center of the debate.
I don’t think we actually need this.
Mibbi Westminster do,and that’s for them to work out and promote.
But I think to implement any new arrangement it still begs the question “what about the actual Treaty”if,as I would certainly expect the Treaty is to go…..and therefore there is no Union…..why on earth would we immediately sign up to another one with the same organisation.
Espically when that organisation has no intention of changing,as is it’s right unless and until it’s electorate demand it.
While yes I can see that yours is a “grown up” position to the benefit of everyone on this island,as someone else said farther up the thread, that’s the kind of Union we are supposed to have right now…and look what they did with it.
I am afraid for me another Union with the Westminster Parliament is a compromise too far.
I have always been of the opinion that if they can’t rule it they wreck it,and it seems that they do this if not with the support of their electorate certainly without their censure.
I have no doubt that Westminster and it’s minions will try to wind up the sectarian division’s in Scotland,but that’s no reason for changing direction.
They will never be happy any way with out total WASPs superiority and we know that is no going to happen.
I am confident that any attempt to recreate N.Ireland here will fail.
We know too much about how the pot was kept boiling for the advancement of agenda’s that were never about the interests of the people themselves.
That lot are a minority and getting smaller by the day,as far as I can tell no Church in Scotland will claim them,as for the other lot, just start threating to intigrate the schools and their church leaders will pull them into line….sad but needs must.
But more than that, I don’t mind Independence by the back door at all,and I don’t even mind Independence by the pantry windae one bit…..but Independence by stealth, doesn’t sit right!
I know that is no exactly what you were sayin,but I does read like it’s all on the down low!
Well for me I would say…for what……,a bit of face saving????? We can win this, Breeks!
So why are we jumping through hoops to help Westminster save face,to let the English electorate carry on thinking what ever it is they are thinking cause it’s certainly no that their system of government needs changing,and appease the knuckle dragger’s,to spare us their bad behaviour.
Entering a Confederation should I think, happen after the Treaty of the Union has gone and our written Constitution is in place…..That will also give us enough time to see if we do want to be in a Union with whatever England becomes after we leave as well.
Do we really want or need an army linked with for example the current Westminster government?
Do we want to still be seen on the world stage with people like Boris and are we to have to get round the table with the DUP,after all N.Ireland is no our province?
Westminsters international reputation would run off on the New Scotland if we made another Union and there was still a UK…… would we sign up to that should we?
ThePnr.
I hear you Alex. I spent all last year in and out hospital . I see folk in terrible ways and very little is done for them . I have everything i will ever need and a big family to help me get by when things are tough but there are so many really struggling now and its the young single lassies with families and disabled that really cant take much more.
As a grandad i feel terrible about the way things are done in this country. My sons both tradesman but working all hours for enough to live on. I see it all over and it hurts . I cannot ignore it .
trouble is i am not fit now . A good 10 minutes of chat leaves me fair knackered. I’m an old soldier . Its been hard just watching and waiting . Oh the waiting.
I would have died for these folk here . Oor folk. I see people near breaking point and theres more cuts on the way. Our young who left abusive families are being made homeless through benefit changes and our mental health is in tatters and over run. Stress is a killer as we all know.
I feel time is running out. Deep inside me i feel it . I wish i could ignore it but cant and i feel others are just going to give up. Parking the Ref was wrong Alex. She should have kicked it off . We are sitting on our thumbs and The rest of the world is drifting away..
drama queen eh ? 🙂
I at least have a smile on my usually grumpy face now. That tory mp getting caught up in EVEL …. those fermers who voted that smartass in are well served . I hope they suffer double the ordinary .
Patience eh , bloody patience ….;)
@Richard Duncan
Sorry to hear of your health problems but your heart gives me hope. We definitely need you and many many others just like you if we are to win this.
Thanks for replying, I for one am keeping this show on the road SNP or no SNP. This is about democracy and our nations future. The SNP road are the one’s carrying the torch to get us there. It is right that if they take the wrong route then they need to be pointed back again to the right direction.
That’s how I feel at least. All the best Richard.
@Breeks
What’s to stop Scotland doing that now ( asserting sovereignty), with regard to Scotland saying they are staying in the Single Market as part of the UK as an expression of that sovereignty?
That’s asserting sovereignty. They have the mandate as the SP already voted in favour of the Single Market. Though an even stronger SP motion would be helpful.
That is basically the Denmark / Greenland arrangement that NS suggested to the UK Govt and got rebuffed. ( A state part in/ part out the EU ).
Since that rebuff, it appears the SNP have backed off and said: We’ll wait to see what Brexit deal is negotiated and offer indy as the alternative (if need be), if the Brexit deal means Scotland is out of the Single Market.
Even in Sunday’s Herald it’s stating how the majority of businesspeople asked want to stay in the Single Market: http://archive.is/hvqPd
Pressure is piling on the UK Govt from the EU and within the Tory party and its business allies.
Nobody knows for sure how this will pan out.
LOL That’s the unspeakable’s worst ever attempt at “deflection”.
Not for the first time either, the’re here to steer the subject into what they want you to read. These trolls are a fucking joke, get some professionals in. Your not earning your wages.
Well, well, well the anti-Independence tractors are fairly crawling out of the woodwork now and SO MANY of them. All of the “forget about Indyref2 focus on Sovereinty”, “go for multi-options”, “form another Union” etc, etc are ploys being used in an attempt to totally confuse the issue and lessen support for Independence altogether. Supporting the SNP publicly online, and behind the scenes, on the streets, at doors, in pubs, is the ONLY way we’ll win Indyref2 and every last person who posts negative comments about them on here are complicit in totally undermining our chances of winning next time round. Start taking note of who they are folks, if you aren’t doing so already.
As Robert Peffers pointed out earlier (1:34pm) “The Scottish Government can’t hold another referendum which they have a mandate to do due to the threat of Brexit when no one knows when, or if, there will be a Brexit.” That’s it in a nutshell and what’s not to get? When Nicola Sturgeon has a clearer idea of the Brexit deal she’ll call for a referendum. Be rest assured of that. Putting the date, not the event, on the back burner has also pulled the rug from under the Unionists feet. Meanwhile the UK economy is now the worst in Europe. Worse than the Greek economy. Note that every last one of the tractors on here who focus on SNP Baad don’t have one detrimental word to say about the Tories, Labour or Libdems. Nothing to offer in relation to pointing out the worst excesses of Westminster rule. Strange one, eh?
………………………….
@ Grouse Beater at 9:30pm …. Another brilliant article Grouse Beater and they wonder why we want out, lol!
…………………………
@ Hamish 100 at 9:17pm …. “DUP” ….. Thanks for the link to that video Hamish. Definitely one to pass around. One that shows up the Scottish Tories for what they are and Colonel Gadaftie won’t like it one bit. Hell mend them.
………………………..
@ Anaurhing at 9:24pm …. “Brexit / immigrants” …. Another great video that highlights that the Westminster Government could have controlled levels of immigration like other EU countries by using powers at their disposal such as enforcing deportation if an individual had failed to find a job within three months / had insufficient funds to support themselves, The big Brexit con. Well worth a watch.
Thepnr @ 1.14
Are you rebuffing it then?
I am waiting to see how it pans out, apparently naebiddy knows!
What we should and must focus on is the likes of the post from Richard Duncan at 12:32 because this is the reality of modern day life in Scotland under Westminster Tory rule.
Our poorest are suffering most that is absolutely true, they have next to fuck all except family, friends and foodbanks.
THIS IS SO WRONG IN THE SIXTH RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
So where is all that wealth going? As posted before on Wings Our pensions are around 1/3rd average earnings, in the EU it is 1/2 and the best are 2/3.
Cuts for the disabled on benefits at the same time as raising Inheritance Allowance. You what? It’s not a joke it’s real just ask the real people.
Where does the money go? Ask a Tory, it goes from the poorest to the richest. That’s a fact, just open your own eyes and look at the disgrace unfold right in front of them.
Shocking Eh! Yes always, do something about it then vote for Independence.
We should be giving them well paid jobs in Scottish production and industry. The shipbuilders who are worried about their jobs under Independence are simply WRONG.
Shipbuilding will flourish in an Independent Scotland just as it does is Norway, or Holland or even Korea.
You see The massive companies like BP have no allegiance to Scotland and the majority of their work goes overseas. Clair Ridge Modgules were built in Korea and even the jackets we could have done here at Methil or Nigg were built in Norway.
What does that tell you about wht BP and the Westminster government think of Scotland? Plenty, they don’t give a shite!
Norway government has I believe 51% in Statoil, the state oil company, it controls contracts. When there is a downturn like now it doesn’t stop investing, it kepps things ticking over by placing crucial contracts for the yards and suppliers that rely on it.
We could be like that too. Vote for Independence.
With Independence and ALL the levers we could dictate to BP or any other oil company what the “local content” must be that is exactly how BP work in Norway and Azerbaijan for example.
In fact being in control of even the licensing of the new fields West of Shetland is massive power. Most Scots just don’t know that yet. Which is a shame, I blame the “Scottish” media.
Shame on them.
People are not as angry about Brexit because half of them don’t even know what it means nor do they care, as far as they’re concerned it might as well be a digestive Brexit, it’s only us geeky types who familiarise ourselves with stuff who see what’s coming
When Scotland voted not to leave the EU they voted for what the SNP told them to because they trusted the FM that she was right, and BTW Davidson Dugdale and Rennie too who are now born again Brexiters except for Rennie who’s a born every day idiot (but does it get me votes)
The Scottish population is so used to being screwed by the Inglish they just sucked it up shrugged their shoulders and accepted the usual world domination of our equal 11 votes to 1 partners the Inglish
Too many folk in Scotland are either too dimwitted or just don’t care enough to take in the fact if the Inglish voted for the Black Death Scotland would just have to accept it up and die smiling (remember the poll tax)(Trident)do we need to list the crap the Inglish have foisted upon us just because they outnumber us eleven to one or just because they feel like it
I refuse to accept Inglinds arrogance bad manners and treatment of Scotland as if we were some nuisance lower form of underdeveloped non evolved humans which has led to the great Scottish cringe
It’s time to tell Scotland firmly to stop it and man up or woman up whatever’s the PC way of saying it now
There’s a new strategy coming very soon from the FM and it’s going to be a bit more slap in the face Presidentially First Ministery and a wee demonstration of who actually is the boss around here how very dare you Ya Numpty
You read it here first!
p.s: This site used to be much friendlier, have you noticed how our selection of resident Trolls is making it angrier by their interventions because too many of us have been too polite and allowing them oxygen when they’re just a bunch of disruptive Bastirts needing Pit Doon not encouraged
They’re no use, no help and no idea what they’re talking about, they just want to screw everybody up wasting time on them sowing their seeds of badness
Iv’e said my piece pals because although lots of us don’t know each other, some of us do, but those of us who are genuine, and we know who we are, don’t tend to get overly offended by each others ramblings but these Troll types are like a disease we don’t need to be catching
@Dr Jim
Well said, very good post. Let’s “take back control” starting with with this website. I’m up for that, trolls can take a hike. LOL
@Robert Peffers
I’m sure that’s very interesting, but has nothing to do with what I was actually talking about.
@Robert Peffers
Or, to put it another way, it’s everything to do with what I was talking about, and why I’ve found being a member of a political party is really not my thing, hence why I’m not renewing my membership, as I am able to contribute nothing. Any energy I have is totally wasted. It’s just not my bag at all!
I said “Any energy I have is totally wasted.” I should have added “skills” which is way more important, or at least, just as much.
Amongst the 100,000 new intake of the SNP there must be event organisers, window-dressers, designers, slogan writers, copywriters, artists, motivational speakers, financial experts, economists, librarians, teachers, logisitic experts, sales directors, owners of bus companies, analysts, you name it.
But what do the SNP do with this 100,000 new intake? Ask them if they prefer stuffing leaflets indirectly into people’s recycle bins, or trying to get people to talk to them in the street.
What a tragic waste of human resources.
Yesindyref, What would you have the 100,000 doing?
There is a call for suggestions. You have valid ideas, do let the SNP know !
Earlier on there was some discussion about Indy-minded folk writing for Red-top rags and was that appropriate?
My take on that was that it was an opportunity to reach that locked-in readership.
I don’t think any fair minded person could ever accuse any of our SNP MPs, MSPs or MEPs of not working extremely hard in their own field of experitise within the Scottish Government and for their constituents. Look at the results. Look at that bridge!!
It is the determination to run Scotland’s affairs as well and as compassionately as our SNP Government do, and their unrelenting holding of feet to the fire in Westminster, and to fight our corner so succesfuly in the European arena, that gives me full confidence that Independence is moving forward solidly, all the necessary steps being taken in preparation for the date being set paving the way for the Grassroot’s Movement to spring back to life.
The excellence we see in the Governance of Scotland, with pitiful and restricted resources from the robber of Scotland’s resources, is a fine indicator of the SNP’s capabilities.
Independence is the SNP’s raison d’etre. They are working on it. And they are asking every one of us to join that effort.
@Ghillie: “There is a call for suggestions. You have valid ideas, do let the SNP know”
Unlike Peffers jumping to conclusions that I whine, moan, complain and whinge, that’s what I tried doing at meetings, and then by email to one or two others – no acknowledgement. Meetings have around 5% of the vastly increased membership attending – and that’s half of them office bearers. What happened to the other 95%? What would motivate some of them to attend mettings?
“What would you have the 100,000 doing?”
Whatever they want to do that helps the SNP, whatever they’re good at. Instead of a survey asking something like:
“Would you like to stuff leaflets, doorknock, do a street stall, fundraise or donate loadsofmoney?” my survey would have been this:
1. What skills do you have that you think might be useful to the SNP?
2. What would you like to do to help the SNP?
3. What would motivate you to attend some meetings?
4. Are you a skilled analyst of open format questionnaires instead of the usual pre-conceptions check boxes? Because if we get 100,000 responses we desperately need your help! Please contact X on Y. You can help us in the comfort of your own home.
@Thepnr
“Norway government has I believe 51% in Statoil, the state oil company, it controls contracts. When there is a downturn like now it doesn’t stop investing, it kepps things ticking over by placing crucial contracts for the yards and suppliers that rely on it.”
Encapsulates precisely the type of thing a government is supposed to do – counter the business cycle. The Scottish govt has no power to do so unfortunately as it can’t create sterling. I guess it’s the downside of labelling yourself a government – people think you have all the levers of government.
Actually scotgov could create money, just not sterling. I believe it’s something we should start now.
No apologies for posting this again. Got lost with all the under ganders deflecting comments away from brexit, Tory sleaze. If you don’t like pass.
Hamish100 says:
10 July, 2017 at 9:17 pm
£425000 money for Brexit to Belfast via Glasgow
Tory in Scotland. What did Davidson know?
Former Scottish Vice Chair of the Tories?
Question time for Davidson
https://www.channel4.com/news/the-400000-donation-to-pro-brexit-campaign
Petra you can call me a tractor if you like, you can claim I’m out to damage the SNP, and pour scorn on whatever I say, but it doesnt make you correct.
The SNP is in the Scottish driving seat, pursuing a campaign which they have confidence in, but which a lot of people, like myself, don’t quite see the logic in.
Express a modicum of doubt, and people go on the defensive and challenge you to say what you would do in their place, and make it incumbent on folks to do so. I’ve said my piece, its there to agree with or dispute.
I am not in the SNP for reasons the SNP really doesn’t want me to expand upon, but my commitment to an independent Scotland, with or without the SNP, would put yours in the shade.
So please, rather than quote every remark out of context and dipped in cutting cynicism, be a dear and explain to me the rationale behind whatever issue it is we won’t know about until the Brexit deal is finalised which is so toxic and abhorrent to us all that it is going to fuel a meteoric overnight surge in support for Independence?
Being dragged out of Europe is a condition we already know about. Can’t be that.
Having no seat at the negotiating table? No, we already know about that.
Access to the Single Market and similar soft Brexit options are considered “cherry picking” by the EU, and will not be made available to the UK, yet somehow Holyrood thinks even without sovereignty that Scotland if it accepts Brexit will somehow have its own “regional” right to cherry pick what we want from Europe. I certainly hope that isn’t the surprise we’re waiting to learn, because I know the answer already.
Instead of slating me for explaining my considered and genuine misgivings, please go right ahead an explain the SNP strategy more fully so that I understand the logic behind the apparent suspension of promoting Independence until we know what the X in Brexit stands for.
It vexes me greatly that the campaign appears to place little store on the importance of progressive momentum at a grassroots level, because a lot of pro independence people are scratching their heads and unclear what they are meant to be doing, and equally unclear what it is specifically we are waiting for.
You imply we are sabotaging Nicola’s master strategy, quite unfairly as it happens, but then do nothing further than say we should all support the SNP, stuff leaflets through letterboxes, despite such leaflets barely mentioning the “i” word.
I’m not in the SNP, so I’m allowed to say whatever the feck I like, but if it is resonating with people, articulating their misgivings which echo my own, then as far as I can see, that counts as constructive discussion.
What you advocate is shutting up and throwing a blanket over the mumblings of legitimate concern. That I promise you is a much greater threat to the SNP’s tenure in the driving seat than a few thought provoking btl comments in a blog.
Look you.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/ambitious-plans-double-welsh-speaker-13311695
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/jeremy-clarkson-under-fire-over-1808877
This says a lot about how Scotland is owned and ruled. Our Highlands and Islands are basically wasteland, denuded of all native flora and fauna, mostly for the blood sports industry. A lot of it supported by big EU funding too, our vast seas, estuaries and rivers poisoned and emptied of life, for money and blood sport.
But for Graun style reportage, its never their precious precious union.
http://archive.is/jfEqU
Earth’s sixth mass extinction event already under way, scientists warn
Yesindyref2 @ 6.28 am
YES !! Brilliant !!
THAT is the kind of thing I do think the SNP are asking for !
Go to ‘Mobilise’
You are on to a winner with those suggestions.
May I ask which SNP group you belong to? Because if you feel you are not being heard there then something is being missed and I am sure you can speak to someone more directly where you will feel your voice is being heard = )
And the new voices, those who came on board since 2014, new young voters and those who have left other parties because they want Independence and appreciate the SNP for what they have done for Scotland, are vibrant and dedicated members.
My experience in SNP meetings and recognition of input seems to be very different from your own. My experiences have been positive. Your’s should be too.
Keep the heid and remember we will win our Independence !
@Breastplate says: 10 July, 2017 at 12:14 pm:
” … I and others will criticise the SNP if I or they think they are endangering our independence which they have on a few occasions such as talking about a once in a generation”
And there is the clue that shows you doing exactly what I claim.
It demonstrates exactly the way the Westminster Establishment and their effective tools in the state controlled media are brainwashing the people of Scotland.
Who was it exactly who claimed that the referendum was, “A once in a lifetime”, opportunity? Was it SNP official policy or was it how the state controlled media portrayed it?
” … Now I understand that this was an observation and not a promise but why the fuck were the Unionists given that ammunition.”
Because that is exactly how, “divide and conquer”, works so well for the Westminster Establishment. It is the spin put upon the actual events and actual words that the Westminster Establishment wants to project.
Perhaps another example of this spin will better illustrate the point:-
In a televised interview with Alex Salmond the interviewer, Andrew Neil, asked the following question of Alex Salmond, (and I paraphrase here) – ” … And did you seek legal advice from your own Scottish Government Legal advisors on that matter?”
Salmond, of course, replied that he had got such legal advice from his SG legal advisors.
Yet to this day the Westminster Establishment spin has brainwashed, even dyed in the wool Indy supporters, that Salmond had claimed he had legal advice from the European Union.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gKQn9bZom0
The Neil question is asked at 1:18 into that interview. Yet to this day the Yoons contend that Salmond claimed he had EU legal advice. Yet the questioner asked if he has sought legal advice from his own Scottish Government legal advisors.
So how come asking, and getting, legal advice from the Holyrood Parliament’s legal advisors magically became Salmond claiming he had received legal advice from the EU?
Salmond never claimed that the referendum was either, “A once in a lifetime”, or, “A once in a generation”, event. It was the media spin that did and that’s how Westminster has worked since ever there was a Westminster and before.
Our whole Scottish History has been re-written by Westminster. Right down to the spin that what is legally a bipartite United Kingdom is now running as Westminster being the de facto Parliament of the country of England that has three subservient dominion countries of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
Yet here you are on a dedicated indy blog doing the spin for the Westminster Establishment.
I regularly post little examples of how our history, (going right back to British history first being recorded by the Romans), is a pack of Westminster spun lies.
The Rev Stu highlights the Westminster untruths, half-truths and omission’s on a daily basis and yet we have Wingers constantly doing the Establishment’s work for them.
@Breastplate says: 10 July, 2017 at 1:26 pm:
“I know you are perfectly capable of reading”
Aye! Breastplate – but are you?
Scot Finlayson @12.01am re Luke Graham
Hope this works
https://twitter.com/TimmsCallum/status/884501820151930881
Robert Peffers @ 9.04
Nailed it Robert,of course we have had to deal with this for decades yet this forum is littered with contributors falling over themselves to berate the current SNP strategy.
The SNP strategists seem to have gone into some kind of brainstorming session and have yet to come out of it, but I reckon we will see a different tack in several policy areas especially with regards to Europe and the currency question.
After a somewhat lacklustre GE campaign the mood around my neck of the woods is wait and see but with the stakes so high I sense a plan to wrongfoot Westminster as the Brexit negotiations unfold.
@Dr Jim
As you will have noticed, so many of the regulars aren’t commenting lately.
It’s like Fight Club on here at the mo.
Hamish 100 @ 7.59 am
Thank you for that link to the Channel 4 attempted investigation into the origin of the £425,000 donation to the unionist/brexit cause through the DUP via Glasgow.
Rules or no retropsective rules to hide behind, why would any decent and honest party and their benefactors, want to hide that information?
Is the source of those huge funds so heinous that they must be secret? In which case, why accept said funds? Just asking.
@Breastplate says: 10 July, 2017 at 2:21 pm:
“Robert insinuates that I am a troll because I disagree with him, I suggested he was talking crap.”
I did not insinuate any such thing, Breastplate. I clearly stated that you were doing the Westminster Establishment’s work for them.
Only you will know if you do so intentionally or with the very best of intentions.
The Tories and sadly Corbyn Labour are hell bent racing for the Brexit cliff.
Should the SNP provide a diversion for the MSM at this time?
On call Kaye even a flute band is praised for its charitable help. Wake up ,the MSM have no shame!
From Scotland’s Future
“…- A once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.” Preface – Alex Salmond First Minister.
“It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a- generation opportunity.” Q&A 557
Breaks: “The SNP is in the Scottish driving seat”
That is so far off the mark as to be risible. The opposite is true. They’re not even in the passenger seat. More like locked in the boot. The UK Government, Whitehall and the Treasury are in the driving seat.
In addition, Scotland’s institutions are run and governed by placemen. The MSM is owned by right-wing tax evaders protecting their interests. BBC Scotland is a state broadcaster pumping out propaganda every day. Necessary political advances are blocked at every juncture.
We’re a nation oppressed, but too many of us are happy with that situation, indeed reject the notion, because we think buying stuff is equal to freedom. Those who can’t buy stuff are disenfranchised from the democratic process as work shy.
There is an entire mentality to alter.
The SNP is already an enlightened group of individuals. They are not the problem.
What ideas do you have to help make change in society’s thinking?
Robert Peffers @ 9.04 am
What the media seem ignorant of ( or ignoring of ) is that there are true historians and archivists who do keep archives and preserve the written and spoken word.
The very recent history of our country.
So that there can be an accurate account for our descendants.
AND for the immediate matters in hand.
Ron MacLean: “…- A once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.” Preface – Alex Salmond First Minister.
Salmond qualified that as a political generation – 5 years.
For many elderly hoping for an autonomous Scotland it was a generation. They’re dead. Their generation was cheated out of its birthright.
However…
Salmond didn’t say, once and that’s our only opportunity.
“Grouse Beater says:
That is so far off the mark as to be risible. The opposite is true. They’re not even in the passenger seat. More like locked in the boot. The UK Government, Whitehall and the Treasury are in the driving seat”
Nail hit on head.
The refrain explicit and implicit from press and many commentators
is that the SNP are running Scotland and poor results are their
fault, good results benefits of the Union.
Which is petty and absurd. Less than half the spending on behalf of Scotland is controlled by Holyrood. Nearly all tax and most of the spending remains controlled by Westminster, and what powers Holyrood has are restricted in many ways.
The reality is that as the Scottish economy rides the wake of economic policies aimed at London there is little that any party that Holyrood can do except hang on and trim at the edges.
Ptra: “Grouse Beater at 9:30pm – Another brilliant article Grouse Beater and they wonder why we want out, lol!”
Many thanks, Petra. Keep up the good fight!
This Scottish Tory has a lot to learn lol.
t.co/n7aK3wg1Hr”
On call Kaye even a flute band is praised for its charitable help. Wake up ,the MSM have no shame!
Its how tory reign of Scotland works, no matter how hard we do not vote for the creeps.
eg,
from that Graun thing today about mass extinction of all life on this planet,
http://archive.is/jfEqU
Earth’s sixth mass extinction event already under way, scientists warn
to,
tory gimps of BBC Scotland, rally to protect literally a handful of super rich dingdongs, that like killing animals and birds for fun, in their Scotland, what they bought, for cheap too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38972081
Tree planting ‘threatening’ Scotland’s grand vistas
By Kevin Keane
BBC Scotland’s environment correspondent
Scotland’s “dramatic open views and vistas” could be threatened by plans to increase woodland cover, according to mountaineers and gamekeepers.”
And so on. Just another example of mass tory gimp fraud, on you, me, the whole tory planet.
I appreciate that gits like Rock etc would rather we not discuss what planet toryboy is actually like, and bicker at them instead.
Its how it works in teamGB.
“Ron Maclean says:
From Scotland’s Future
“…- A once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.” Preface – Alex Salmond First Minister.
So far that observation remains true.
I really do not see a problem with it being wrong, unless you think its an unwritten rule of the politician’s job to actively prevent opportunities. Which given the behaviour of Tory / Labour / Lib Dem at Holyrood is an understandable misconception.
Sorry for last post.
twitter.com/TimmsCallum/status/884501820151930881
OK Grouse Beater, you’re good with words and thoughts, especially words.
So how do we alter that mentality?
I do not feel oppressed, but mega pissed off! I feel that I, and my family, young and old, are fighting for Scotland’s Independence and have been for generations. And I don’t think we are alone in that.
Don’t buy much, not how we identify ourselves. Again, not unusual in Scotland. Nor in Europe.
But do know folk are taken in by advertising and there are ‘got to have’ generations. Descendents of the ‘keeping up with the Jones’es’.
But Robert, lots of folks don’t have. And are mibee a bit misguided about what is really necessary to keep body, soul and mind together.
How do we change that if that is a problem?
Or, is the problem, as you say, that those who can’t buy are disenfranchised. Yet some of the clearest voices I have heard throughout my life have been of those who can’t buy.
So, is it up to us to get their voices heard? Get folk re-registered to vote with no threat of their listing being abused?
For starters:
OI ! Call out to lurkers ! Speak up ! ‘Hallo’ is grand = )
I would just like to point out at this juncture that although we, the natives, may be getting somewhat restless at this apparent hiatus during the summer hols, its as nothing compared to what the Tories are heading for afterwards (with the ever-so-willing help of Corbyn Labour).
The UKGov is going to be humbled before the whole world. And we think that we have problems..?
Grouse Beater says:
11 July, 2017 at 9:36 am
Breaks: “The SNP is in the Scottish driving seat”
That is so far off the mark as to be risible. The opposite is true. They’re not even in the passenger seat. More like locked in the boot. The UK Government, Whitehall and the Treasury are in the driving seat…”
Do yourself a favour. Get somebody to explain to you what sovereignty actually means.
Don’t you see the paradox in voting “to get” sovereignty? Your vote means nothing UNLESS you have sovereignty to make the vote count.
If we have sovereignty, it means we have no superior, and that means Westminster CANNOT overrule the declared will of the sovereign people of Scotland.
The declared will of the sovereign people of Scotland was to remain in the EU. It doesn’t matter whether it was a UK referendum, because where the sovereign will of the Scottish people conflicts with the faux sovereignty of Westminster, the jurisdiction of Westminsters divine sovereignty ends at the border, and the only sovereignty that counts in Scotland is the will of the sovereign people.
If you’re one of the guiding lights for the SNP strategy Grouse Beater then suddenly I have a fuller understanding of the problem.
“once in a generation opportunity”
The problem with people interpreting that phrase to mean ‘no indyrefs again for a long time’ is that they are ignoring the reality that things change.
The next IndyRef will be quite different from the last. As will be the one after that, if needs must.
The underlying fact that the issue and question is about Scottish independence doesn’t mean each is simply a rerun of the past.
It’s insulting to imply it’s just like a simple computer game where you click on ‘retry’ every time you lose.
How many No voters expected a Tory majority win in 2015? How many expected the promises made to win the No vote to evaporate? Who expected EVEL? And, absolutely NO ONE expected the chaos of Brexit – that isn’t even a question.
The world has changed totally. Each IndyRef will have its own justification, mandate, and driving factors.
A “generation” seems to be about 18months!
@Thepnr
Whether my name comes up as COLIN ALEXANDER or colin alexander is purely down to the fact I left the caps lock on and it autofills my name.
Everyone is a troll when they point out indyref2 is putting Scotland’s sovereignty at risk for decades by an all or nothing strategy. Putting all Scotland’s eggs into one basket.
We did indyref and it FAILED. I’ve yet to see ANYTHING that looks like a game changer. Brexit Brexit Brexit is all youse can come up with. Brexit ma airse.
As others point out too, outside the world of Scottish politics, naebody gies a monkeys aboot Brexit.
If you think voters will flood to YES cos of Brexit then that’s clutching at a cement lifebelt.
A third of YES supporters voted Brexit. How many would choose UK Brexit over Scot indy, nobody knows. How many No voters would become YES voters over Brexit, nobody knows.
We do know opinion polls saw no significant rise in support for YES over Brexit.
IF and I say IF Brexit does happen, the UK Govt will obviously say: “Now you know what you’re getting with the UK and the UK can negotiate trade deals worldwide with more clout than a wee indy Scotland that’s oot the EU and oot the Single Market. A vote for indy is even more uncertainty and a greater economic gamble than in 2014 with the price of oil a third of what it was then. If you vote for indy your doomed, doomed I say.
The Tories won’t have to intercept the postal votes, hearing that the feart Scots pensioners and all the English pensioners here to enjoy the perks of Scotland but who want keep it part of England will be rushing to tick the NO box.
Unless, indyref YES is a dead cert, it’s a huge gamble. Reckless. A suicide kamikaze charge to the ballot box.
Bounty hunter for the tory party anyone?
http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/crime/gina-miller-viscount-rhodri-colwyn-philipps-st-davids-westminster-magistrates-court-brexit-a7834636.html
Facebook,
Guy Verhofstadt added 3 new photos.
1 hr ·
I compared Orban’s political strategy with the Communist past, but now the Hungarian government is even using Nazi-propaganda to damage his political opponents.
Last week the Fidesz-led government launched a nationwide billboard and television advertising campaign reminiscent of Europe’s darkest hours.
The campaign uses an image of a grinning George Soros with the slogan “Let’s not allow Soros to have the last laugh!” Thousands of these posters have been plastered around the country. Understanding the government’s intent, some of the posters have been defaced with hateful graffiti such as “stinking Jew” scrawled across Soros’s face.
The Hungarian regime’s xenophobia and demonization of refugees are anti-European. The claim that Soros is promoting a scheme to import a million illegal immigrants into Europe is Victor Orban’s fantasy. Darkness falls in Hungary. We cannot let this happen.”
Its billboards just like the ones we get as Scots, Alex Salmond the pick pocket thief on English wallets, assorted yoon politicos dancing like puppets to Salmond’s tune etc.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/07/labour-snp-coalition-poll-general-election-2015_n_7741776.html
Ghillie: “Grouse Beater, how do we alter that mentality?”
There comes a point when the mass of society see official orthodoxy as bullshit. I believe that’s the situation now.
The revolt against councillors and politicians by Grenfell Tower survivors is a case in point. They perceive they were filed and forgotten. When anger swells up in England you tend to find it’s following on from Scotland. That’s a good sign and should be harnessed. But there more folk in more cities to march and protest than in Scotland. We are scattered rurally, with a lot of mountains in between!
Youth voting for change, for progress, for positivity in their thousands is another indication. Talk to youth, encourage youth, think as youth, mobilise youth. (Just don’t try any silly dance movements!)
The arguments here seem to concentrate solely on what the SNP could do organisationally, that members with ability are too often reduced to pushing leaflets through doors. (My ability lies elsewhere so I write passionate essays. But for some, leaflet mailing and meetings is how they make a difference.)
I have always seen the revolution as one of civil rights – not “independence”, though the two are synonymous if we are to imbed our own constitution and sovereignty.
Once conventional wisdom says there’s something horribly wrong with the way society is run, we get radical change. Marches are a good thing. The establishment are fearful of mass protest.
It’s in us.
But we always need a charismatic leader. Always. Somebody who is able to express our anger, fearlessly.
Expecting change by proxy – via the SNP only – is lazy and lethargic delegation. It’s the armchair “activist” – a contradiction.
We change it by our attitude, our forthrightness, ready to speak out in our daily lives, expressing dissent in passive resistance when issues become intolerable, and when we show up reactionaries as Luddites. Not buying right-wing newspapers is one method of active dissent. Boycotting companies whose bosses tell us our civil rights are bunkum if led by the SNP, is another way.
Apologies if you’ve read this, but I wrote this of England as well as Scotland. It augments this post and your
interesting remarks:
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-4qV
Warm regards
Seems like just five minutes ago Theresa May was calling me a treacherous scum sucking saboteur
Today she wants my help to be patriotic to my country but if I don’t want to help her I’ll be a scum sucking treacherous saboteur again
Unlike a goldfish I have a long memory and don’t care for Tories who insult me by insinuating I have no memory at all that I should once again meekly accept the Tory plea to be on their side and right after they hope I might do it, line up to have my head lopped off once again
Tories just have no lower baseline do they, they’ll say and do anything, right before they screw you (learned from the Liberal Democrats who are the party from hell)
Our FM will not fall for this pathetic garbage and I hope she takes the opportunity now that the Tories are down, to keep kicking them till there isn’t a breath left in their bodies (politically speaking of course)
Me, I’d happily do it the Scottish way wae sumthin heavy
@Ghillie
I’ve seen people on here talking about their great meetings and was green with envy. That’s what I was expecting, a buzz, open discussion, topics, enthusiasm. Something to fire you up for the month ahead, and exchange ideas and learn stuff.
Actually my branch’s agenda doesn’t have AOB on it, it has AOCB, and that’s what it is, constituency business, candidates, elections. leaflets, constituency association. There is no bit where you can start a discussion within the framework, just a dull deadwod boring agenda with office-bearer reports, whatever the committee decided to put on it. I was on the committee for a couple of useless meetings, I suspect the only reason I was asked to put myself forwards so that I felt obliged to – leaflet. I politely declined. But they had very few people to leaflet, and my take on that was, no wonder, the meetings are deal dull boring so nobody bothers to go. Just some pay as you enter social events. Not everybody can spare the money.
I did get “open discussion” put on the agenda, with the idea members could suggest by email topics for discussion. It lasted one meeting, and the item wasn’t even called it was skipped before I realised it, straight onto the 100 club draw. So I suggested the 100 club was put early on the agenda, as some meetings had been hurried to get to the draw “the bit everyone’s waiting for”.
That’s the root problem – no open discussion. Ironically though the one time it was on the agenda a couple of members from another branch came along and started an open discussion about an issue even though it wasn’t called. Wonderful I thought, that’s what it’s all about. I talked to them afterwards (I’m a blether) and our branch was way nicer than theirs, though attendance same as ours pro rata. Next month though, no “open discussion” on the agenda. I gave up then. I guess they don’t want change, just the usual cosy small circle.
Peffers talks about “rules”, and pontificates and lectures about the procedure. It doesn’t work, or at least, didn’t for me. So the SNP lose one member with a lot of energy, vocal, friendly, and yes, skills from my previous life which should be useful. I doubt I’ll be the last.
O/T
Terry Entoure has a superb forensic dissection of Tory Brexit “strategy” which is extremely funny if it wasn’t true.
https://terryentoure.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/how-did-we-get-here.html#comment-form
Enjoy.
Lord, give me strength. You didn’t say it would be this difficult.
You’re a curious one Breeks, but I likes the cut of your jib.
Yesindyref2, I do hope you find your niche = )
Robert Kerr says:
Thanks for highlighting that. An excellent analysis.
Makes it sound even more chaotic than I imagined!
” Conclusion
Brexit strategy is a mix of unintended consequences, lies that spun out of control, misunderstandings, stupidity, an inability to listen, an inability to comprehend detail, knee-jerk reaction to media pressure, a refusal to discuss trade-offs lest it upset the “will of the people”. “
The are party political rules which (are supposed to ) govern all politcal parties in the UK. They are set out by Westminster. Supposed to be in the interest of fairness and open Government. They are supposed to have strict rules of governance. An agenda, recorded minutes, discussions, a chairman, political officers etc. These are supposed to be the rules of all Political Parties in Britain. Otherwise they are considered to unlawful. There are Parliamentry rules governing all legal political parties in the UK. Similar to business rules. There is a format, constitution etc. There are discussion but everyone likes the sound of their own voice. How has the SNP survived for so long? Without some contenders. Who want others to do the heavy lifting for them. Like ‘little red hen’ prima donnas. Either get stuck in or forever hold yer wisshed.
Some ignoramuses do not seem to understand the position. They prattle on making a complete fool of their ignoramous. Often believing they are being extremely smart to disregard the rules. When they are showing up their ignorance. Wasting people’s time and patience. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Vacant coupons. The SNP membership is increasing.
Just go on the Internet for five to ten minutes for enlightenment. Political party business is a requirement of the Law. Not supposed to be decided by individual political Parties. The fact the rules/law is often broken especially regarding political donations is a cause for concern.
Some mavericks think they are being smart. They are just showing their ignorance and boring others. Good bye, good luck and good riddance.
Grouse Beater @ 10.42 am
Oh yes, that rings true = )
Am very lucky to know a fair few young folk who have a clear vision of how they would like an Independent Scotland to be and it looks good to me too.
Your comments bring to mind Martin Luther King Jnr.
I lived in America in the late 60s as a young girl and vividly remember that in a part of the great and glorious US of A some people were not allowed to vote because of their colour.
Of course I just did not get it. Unthinkable.
I remember the marches. Black and white people marching together and then Martin Luther King’s assassination.
That seemed to be the turning point and God forbid that ever happens again before a people or a nation will be recognised.
I reckon we are on the right road and more will become clear as the Brexit disaster unfolds. Interesting times ahead.
@yesindyref2
That pretty well sums up my experience of attending SNP meetings too. It was all set out on the Agenda: Sederunt, office reports, the prize draw etc.
I didn’t feel there was any chance to discuss new ideas or anything like that.
It was more like a Bowling Club or Golf Club committee meeting than a radical reforming political party that was going to overturn 300 years of WM domination.
The only time it livened up was a when there was a wee bit of a stushie about something I won’t go into, and people then debated.
As I’ve said before, the reason I let my membership lapse was because my local MSP was reselected without any debate or any challengers despite the branch having many members.
I felt it was like Labour’s “jobs for the boys” and decided then: “I’m out of here”.
‘Any other business’ Can be followed by open discussion. It has to be set down as a subject. An item on the agenda. Anyone can take a relevant item forward. To be put on the agenda. It is an official format for all business meetings. Required by Law.
I’m with you yesindyref2. My local branch meetings had a surge of new attendees after 2015 who quickly melted away due to the inertia and tedium. Including me. I saw people with great fund raising ideas totally blanked, because that’s not what we do.
Sorry but I’ve got better things to do than organise tea dances and tombolas to raise a hundred quid.
@Ken500 “Some ignoramuses . . .”
You and Peffers have much in common. Instead of reading, trying to empathise, understand and see if there’s any merit in what people have to say – out come the insults, and “I know better than you”. That DISCOURAGES open debate – precisely what I’m saying is needed. For information the SNP don’t have an open discussion forum – and this is 2017, in the era of social media. Which is perhaps why people try to discuss things in this forum.
On such a forum I’d be able, as others would, to discuss, have a blether, with fellow members from Dumfries, Lanarkshire, Fife, Stornoway and even that little known place called Brechin, somewhere over on the east.
But there ain’t one, and I don’t do twitter or facebook and never will.
Perhaps 25,500 joined the SNP and go through all the political party hoops. But within a very short space of time 100,000 joined the SNP and I’d say most are not political party savvy – or interested in being.
What a waste, and attitudes like “ignoramuses” don’t help.
An army of people, several brigades, not far off the whole strength of the UK armed forces, all ready to further the cause of Independence, and mostly all wasted.
@Grouse Beater, 10.42
Well said
Yesindyref2.
I have found through long years of experience that the sort of people who like to be on committees are exactly the sort of people who you don’t want organising things. I am a member of another organisation (non political) who had the same problem. The answer was to organise monthly socials. Non members are also welcome. Committee business is not discussed other than a 5 minute update. The rest of the time is spent talking shite with like minded souls. The socials are much better attended than the branch meetings, although the “committeemen” types tend not to attend the socials.
Socials are better held on neutral territory (the pub).
Instead of resigning from the SNP why not organise a social outwith the SNP branch structure? Incidentally, I wonder whether we are members of the same branch?
@Ananurhing and @colin alexander
There was talk at the time of the massive 4 times enlargement about the “old guard”, and that was quickly denied all round. Whether that’s a part of it in some places, well, very possibly. I’d say certainly in some.
But as a whole, the SNP is advancing the cause of Independence, which is a radical change for Scotland, a modern idea really as most of the Independent countries in the World became independent in the last 100 years.
The SNP is asking people to take a chance, to go for Independence, to vote for change, to take our own futures in our own hands, to get away from Westinster “rule”.
Yet their own party isn’t prepared to change itself “it worked for 80 years, why change it now. We have rules”. Yes, the rule of Westminster, why change that after all?
Precisely what “yoons” are saying about the Union.
Hello SNP, encourage open and frank discussion, mend your ways. Get with the 21st century.
And @Dr Jim, I hope indeed that “the SNP” do read these comments. People have taken the trouble, risked the wrath of the self-righteous to make our views known. The SNP might learn something if they pay attention.
So sorry to hear if anyone has had less than the experience they were hoping for.
BUT in my experience the SNP DO have an open forum for discussion and are welcoming and fun, informative, highly engaged and intelligent, and above all, respectful.
There are so many ways for everyone who wants to see Scotland independent to be involved. Being an active part of the political scene is not for everyone.
As Grouse Beater and so many others have said, standing up for what you believe in, talking to those round about you, advertising Independence – making it normal, a part of the conversation, raising self belief in the people of Scotland, undoing the damage of the last few hundred years in peoples’ minds and hearts, would have a HUGE impact.
And some of us will deliver information through peoples’ letter boxes and canvas and attend planning meetings and spread the feeling that this is the way forward for Scotland.
We ALL have a niche, especially at the polling station!
“What would you have the 100,000 doing?”
Not pricing the grassroot members out of their conferences.
The stuff Richard Murphy was taking about in the phantom power production is what some of us have been saying since before 2014.
“I wonder, “Reverend”, if you ever look at the dwindling contributions from your gullible acolytes”
Um, this year’s fundraiser from what you call “gullible acolytes” and I call “readers who appreciate our work” was the biggest ever by a huge distance, more than £50,000 up on last year’s total.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/with-our-shield-or-on-it/
“and realise you could have spent the day going for a nice walk in the park”
https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=bears%20from%3Awingsscotland&src=typd
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=strollin%27%20from%3Awingsscotland&src=typd
“gone to see Spider-Man,”
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/884438150692708352
“sampled the cultural smorgasbord that is Bath…”
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/868092177322311680
“Any number of things in fact, instead of whining about mineral water.”
As you can see, I actually manage to do ALL of those things, at no extra charge. But thanks for your concern!
(You, on the other hand, appear to occupy your time obsessively reading and posting comments to websites you hate. Which of us is spending their life the more usefully, I wonder.)
@Fairliered
I wanted to send an email around all members, a very short questionnaire, only to be told that had been done already – that without even asking me what it was I wanted to ask.
I guess I’ve met, well, just 5% of the branch members including office-bearers. I don’t have a clue who the other 95% are, never met them, no means of communication.
Sad innit?
Yes, a set date for a set pub every month would be a start.
AOCB I normally take to mean any other competent business, so anything really that you care to bring up for discussion.
I never thought of it as Constitutiency business!
@yesindyref2 says: 11 July, 2017 at 5:05 am:
” … I said “Any energy I have is totally wasted.” I should have added “skills” which is way more important, or at least, just as much.”
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!
I’ve heard it all before, yesindyref2.
I heard it as a Trade Union rep, I heard it at the local Community Council, the Local Government Council and local branches of the SNP.
You always get the total numpties who come along and make their usual complaints about how the existing set up is being run and in every case they do this they are only there to disrupt the proceedings – whether by intent or by sheer bloody ignorance.
That’s not to say, in many cases, that they do not have genuine complaints or genuine grounds to feel dissatisfied with the present people running whatever organisation they are dissatisfied with.
Their problem, as is yours, is they have no real concept of how proper democracy works – or indeed how it can only work. It is a system, like organised debating, that has a tried and tested set of rules that have evolved over a long period of tried and tested experience. Without such rules there is only anarchy.
These people, even those with the very best intentions, can achieve nothing but disruption because the will not take the trouble to learn how democracy works and thus how to go about how to change things for, in their view, the better.
They, like you, have no time or respect for the formality of how these democratic organisations work. They blunder in and do nothing more than complain – then leave and complain to all and sundry that the organisation is the thing that is wrong and not themselves.
A formal meeting must have a democratically selected chairperson and other essential officials such as at least a secretary and a Treasurer. At meetings all things are done via the chair.
There is thus no point of attempting to do anything of note unless it is done via the chair. You do not address complaints, make proposals, propose amendments or whatever to the meeting, (the membership), unless you do so via the chair.
More simply you can only address the membership via the chairperson and that means in formal debate. By your own admission you attempted to make complaints and you mentioned emails. Now emails and letters can indeed be used but these must be addressed to the secretary who will then read them out at a formal meeting thus once more being controlled by the chairperson.
There is no point of claiming you have no time for such formal, (actually usually described by detractors as), “aa yon pish!”
There are very good reasons for all, “Yon pish”. The first being that everything is documented and is reported in the minutes of the meeting and is thus all above board and out in the open. It can thus be contested, corrected and amended where every member can see what is happening. It can also be properly objected to as, “A point of Order”, because all such organisations should have a rule Book that contains, “Standing Orders”.
Which is why it was so laughable when a certain James Kelly refused to sit down while attempting to make what he thought was a, “Point of Order”, but which the Presiding Officer, (correctly), ruled was not a breach of Standing Orders and thus insisted Kelly should, “Sit down”, as only the person addressing the chair should be on their feet. By NOT sitting down Kelly was thus in, “Breach of Standing Orders”, and thus was a genuine, “Point of Order”.
Do not ask me why, but for some reason Labour Party members, in particular, seem to believe anything they do not agree with is, “A Point of Order”.
They thus treat the cry of, “Point of Order”, much like the Perry Mason (USA Court dramas), treat in court calls of, “Objection”.
In both cases these calls take precedence over the proceedings which must stop and the Point Of Order or Objection must be dealt with before matters can proceed.
The long and the short of all that is that unless you are prepared to do things in the proper formal manner then not only are you wasting the organisation’s time but your own time too.
BTW: the vast majority of members do not actually attempt to make changes or suggest amendment but none the less play their part by having the power to vote for, against or abstain from voting. Many members of any organisation don’t even bother to attend the meetings but that too is their democratic right. That is, they offer their tacit support in general to the organisation but do not wish to be involved in formulation policies.
However, if you wish to get involved, and change things, you will not get far without learning the way formal meetings work and the reasons why they are needed in the first place.
@Ghillie
I didn’t find any online forum, though I think there was one with the purpose of training people how to put leaflets through letterboxes and campaign more effectively.
@ScottieDog
And the social events too, all the ones I remember in the communications meant you had to buy a meal, pay for the buffet, band or whatever. Prceeds for the party funds of course. Meet the candidate, it’ll cost you. Meet the new MSP, / MP, it’ll cost you more. Not all of us can afford it. Go to a pub as Fairliered says, and hey, if you want you can sit on a pint for an hour or so, Well, not actually sit on it, the glass might break and the beer gets awfy warm and possible a bit smelly, but it’s the principle that counts.
I suppose when you allow your blog to be an open forum such as this you hear all kinds of voices both supporting and demeaning the SNP.
I think that’s fair enough as all voices should be heard, I do question though that if your of the “demeaning” type just exactly how that will work in favour of Scotland gaining Independence?
Negativity in my view doesn’t help one bit, we don’t need to do the MSM’s job for them.
Sure, not all is rosy in the SNP garden but venting your spleen on here about that won’t get you very far I wouldn’t think. Carry on if you must but before you do that think to yourself am I encouraging others to vote Yes when the next chance comes around?
This is a pro-independence blog whose whole purpose is encouraging doubters that they might be better served by voting YES. It uses the negativity which media and politicians print to expose them as liars.
Each to their own though I prefer to remain positive, but remember it’s certain that negativity will get people down and why anybody would want to do that beats me. It sure as hell won’t win any votes for Yes and that’s exactly why the media do it every day with SNP BAD.
Is there a place for that on Wings? Not to my mind.
@Robert Peffers: “You always get the total numpties who come along and make their usual complaints . . . ”
If you bothered to read a posting before writing your false presumptions, you’d see what I did say. It wasn’t complaints, and your ridiculous assumptions about me are total crap.
And as for “numpties” thanks for the compliment sweetie-pops.
@Thepnr
Jings thepnr, there is no referendum right now, there is no general election, Holyrood election, council election, now IS the time for criticism, to improve the act. During an actual campaign, probably not for deep problems, sit on the hands and eat your cereal.
There have been complaints from senior SNP people that the 100,000 new members do nothing to help.
Well, instead of criticising the 100,000 new members, why don’t they ask themselves one very simple question about the non-involvement of that 100,000 new members.
Why?
And in spite of 62% voting Remain and Scotland actually being dragged out of the EU against our will, with an obvious Hard Brexit to come, a downwards economy, job losses, hardship, and the most ruthless UK Government seen for a long time including Thatcher who was a saint in comparison, support for Independence sits at 47%.
Why?
@yesindyref2 says:11 July, 2017 at 11:39 am:
“You and Peffers have much in common. Instead of reading, trying to empathise, understand and see if there’s any merit in what people have to say – out come the insults.”
Oh! Get over yourself, yesindyref2.
What the hell do you think the posts here on how to go about conducting yourself at meetings was all about? If not a result of reading your posts that indicate that you have not the faintest idea of how to do so.
Let’s get this quite clear – shall we.
All properly run meetings are either dull or lively depending upon those in attendance at that particular meeting.
If you want it to be lively then it is up to you and the other attendees to liven it up. It will only be as lively as you allow it to be. I’ll tell you what your post says to me, shall I?
It says you are either a deliberate plant on Wings who wants to disrupt the blog or you are one of the members at these meetings you found so dull who was depending UPON SOMEONE ELSE to liven things up.
I’m not kidding when I tell you that I have belonged to local SNP Branches where the entire office holders were democratically deposed from office and replaced by those who did not agree with the way things were being done.
Not so very long ago Alex Salmond was expelled from the SNP:-
He was briefly banned from the SNP when the more left wing group was expelled by the larger SNP party. How then do you suppose he returned and went on to become the leader that brought us to the brink of independence?
These things are done by members who are not in agreement with those in charge of the party who get to branch and constituency Associations and take on the office bearers and take over.
A Branch meeting is only as dull as the membership allow it to be. Yet in your self cantered mind telling you that somehow insults you.
Get over yourself and if you cannot stand criticism refrain from criticising others.
@Robert Peffers
What the hell do you think my post here on how I don’t go to meetings any more and am not renewing membership of the SNP was all about?
“It says you are either a deliberate plant on Wings”
Keep it up, buttercup. Continue to scare off the lurkers and piss off regulars.
@Lanarkist says: 11 July, 2017 at 12:14 pm:
“AOCB I normally take to mean any other competent business, so anything really that you care to bring up for discussion.
I never thought of it as Constitutiency business!”
And you are correct to take it so, Lanarkist.
All formal meetings are only as lively or as dull as the attendees allow those officiating it to be. The membership, like the electorate, get the
GovernmentMeeting they deserve.When you attend a Branch Meeting YOU are the meeting. The person in the chair does not choose what is to be debated or discusses.
If a matter is raised by any member it must be recorded in the agenda by the secretary when the agenda is drawn up but there is always the AOB or AOCB call at the conclusion of the agenda that allows any competent matters to be raised from the floor.
Informal chatter between members, or members and office bearers, is unofficial and can, and usually is, ignored.
So there you go – your branch meeting will only be as lively as you allow it to be. Don’t come here complaining to us – go do something about it – changes come about better that way.
@yesindyref2
“There have been complaints from senior SNP people that the 100,000 new members do nothing to help.”
Then you are absolutely right to criticise. What I’m asking is that is Wings Over Scotland the right place to do that?
In my view it is not, do it at your branch or take it higher if you must. Even if you don’t get anywhere, you don’t give in you keep trying, that’s what I would do.
Have a gripe about the SNP and your a member? Then sort that out internally, people reading Wings don’t really need to know. Want to change things? Then we need to work harder for support.
Support comes from encouragement not discouragement. Stay positive and fight for Independence not the SNP is my view.
@Thepnr
I prefer doing it here than doing it on the Herald!
No, this might not be the best place, though it seems others have the same problem, but I found the direct route didn’t work for suggestions, so there’s no reason to think it’d work for criticisms. Anyway, here I can be general rather than about the branch, the people at the branch are nice people and I don’t want it to reflect on them. I also know it’s not just a problem with my branch. Hopefully the SNP do indeed read these postings, or have them pointed out to them (cough, hint, Dr Jim).
But even though I won’t renew in September, when I can find the time I’ll email the branch itself to say I’m resigning and why – as nicely as I can. They do work hard and it’s kind of like punching below the belt, so I have to work it into a constructive way. In fact my idea was that if attendance at branch meetings could be increased, doubling should really be easy, then some of those might volunteer for the regular duties, the dreaded leaflet stuffing etc. As it is it’s the same people every time, doing multiple runs.
Then indeed, yipppppppeeeee, it’s back to being non-aligned, which is where I really belong anyway. Sadly I’m not a party animal 🙂
Many members do not want unsolicited e-mails from random members. To disclose members details to random members/people is obviously a breach of the data pritection act. Ie illegal. Members details of any publc association are kept private for obvious reasons. Peopke want their personal data kept private except by agreement.Many assiciations limit e-mails sent to members as they do not want their displeasure. Ie it can annoy many people for good reason. Unsolicited mail is not desirable. Nothing annoys people more.
Haven’t checked in for a while..but surprise… surprise..Peffers and his stalinist mates are having a go at any dissenters as being ‘trolls’..
Contributors such as Tam Jardine, Ian Brotherhood and many more have faded off this site…why?…because of the flatulent stranglehold of orthodoxy exerted by bullying self righteous attacks made by the usual suspects.
Every time positive suggestions are made bye.g. Petra, Breeks, Alf Baird etc.as to how we can attack the inertia we are experiencing under the UK State and its media..there is either rancorous criticism or worse….silence…
I’ve resisted attacking the SNP on here lately. But I am totally fed up because of the utter cowardly retreat by the party in the face of Brexit. We voted as a nation to stay in the EU. Now the SNP have retreated to begging for a ‘seat’ at a non existent table for the exit!All because of their flawed and feart approach during the GE to the issue of Independence.
If and when we leave the EU, it will be a disaster which will explode in civil disobediance in England. The spark has been created by Grenfel and at that point a radical alternative will be required in Scotland to lead us out of the internecine mess that will occur. I don’t believe that the likes of Ian Blackford and the supine managerial types he leads can contemplate real leadership.
I saw the Sinn Fein spokesman on Channel 4 talking about the DUP bung and his resolute and strong unequivocal stance was admirable…if only we had people such as that leading our party. I do not support any party in Ireland, before anyone starts, it is the clear and strong stance against corrupt British unionism that I respect and admire.
And still it goes on. The wee cabal forges ahead undeterred. SNP Baad. I’m resigning. I wont attend meetings because they’re boring, etc, etc, etc, over and over and over again. How many times do we have to hear this? The constant drip, drip, drip of what’s becoming more overt usage of propaganda strategies, on here, from people who purport to support Independence. The constant undermining of the SNP which in turn means the undermining of our ability to acquire our Independence. It’s not rocket science.
Where are the informative posts and links or even posts and links castigating the Unionists? Non-existent. Speaks volumes.
Pathetic
Plastic Independistas
All talk and no action. Talk the talk but do not walk the walk. They do not practice what they preach. Full of their own self importance. Especially on the Internet. Go back under the bridge. Sniping from the side lines. Sitting on the fence.
@Ken500
Yes, there’s data protection, I know about that, I’m my business’s DPO (as well as chief bottle-washer).
This was as a member of the committee, and through the committee. I think there is some restriction on the number of approaches by email in the guidelines, I forget now.
@Petra
There you go then, eh! Yet another who accuses all and sundry of being a troll, a plant, an underminer, a proagandist, if they don’t like what they post.
But just for you, this is my blog, I posted a link to several times ages ago. Must be due another airing! (and perhaps updating).
https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/
Pretty damn good troll subversive underminging propaganda if I say so myself.
Sin Fein don’t attend Westminster. For good historical reasons. They could defeat the Unionists. Bring them down. They just keep on raking in the £Millions from the Unionist Gov courtesy of the DUP/ UK taxpayers. Some example. They could bring the Tories down. They stand back and let them do their worst, as long as they are OK. Hypocrites.
@Ken500
So where’s your blog with useful stuff for fellow Indy supporters, eh? Did you leave it under the bridge somewhere but?
3 months ago or more I said the trolls on this forum were winning. I was wrong, they had already won as everyone is so paranoid they accuse all and sundry of being trolls.
The genuine trolls are laughing, laughing, laughing their heads off to see such fun.
Robert Peffers Im trying to say less and let ruffled feathers get some preening time, but you make the SNP meetings sound like the committee of the village hall who don’t want the wild young hoodlums playing five aside indoors.
Oh! that all constitutional revolutions were as pedestrian as Scotland’s eh? Yeah….
Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate there are house rules and ways of doing things, village halls need their committees, and you cannot manage without them, but in such exceptional times when we came within a whisper of Independence and there was a sudden influx of 100,000 people, I’m sorry, but if they were greeted with “put your comments on a slip and I’ll pass it to the chairman”, that strikes me as a rather poor appreciation of what those people were there to do.
These people didn’t join up to do parade drill, forgive the militarist metaphor, but these folks lined up to be given a hat, a musket, a crust of bread and to be pointed in the direction the Front. What you’ve actually done is to stand them down and send them home.
You do see this don’t you?
Maybe it was necessary. Maybe there was nothing for them to physically do, but if you don’t channel that mood into something constructive then it’s momentum you will lose. If you want the pips of leadership, then you’ve got to be prepared to lead in the quiet times as well as the loud.
No doubt I’ll now be condemned for another ladle of SNPbad, but quite frankly if we want to win, the pesky Greens have really got to raise their game above and beyond the Parish Council’s standard pro-forma and get a lot smarter. The politics of independence are not ordinary politics, but thoroughly extraordinary politics, but you wouldn’t think that to look at us. The yearning for Independence is an unruly creature that you don’t try to tame, but steer in the right direction and let it do its thing. We’re still at the stage of waking the critter up.
Some acclaimed ‘business’ people seem to have precious little business knowledge, including common law. Required for business law. What kind of a ‘business’ are they running? Suspect. Then downcry any suggest of ignorance. It is common knowledge. Basic law.
Will Scotland become independent via the ballot box? Beginning to have serious doubts. If we really, genuinely want it, we may well have to fight for it. Every other Brit colony has had to. Why do we presume to be an exception?
@Ken500
There you go, another one who in his total ignorance thinks it’s cool to insult people. I know all the laws regarding my business, including not laws such as European Directives – and have read them, and am indeed the compliance officer for them, HSE, the contact for my home Trading Standards as well, but my bet is that off the top of your head, without googling it, you wouldn’t have had a clue what a DPO was – or the name of the body I’m registered with.
The biggest troll is being laughed at. Ignorance is not an excuse. A bit of self awareness might help, but it seems to have gone by the wayside long ago. Running loose. Many people do not find it funny or mirthful, Especially those in desperate situation being ground down. This is an Independence supporting site. Not a bring the SNP down and do to unionist’s dirty work for them. There are enough of those ruined and by the wayside. To many to mention. Dissenters welcome. Off they go.
Ref “Dr Jim @1047″ , yes you are right to highlight this latest ” strategy change” form Mayhem.
Obviously , with the Tories now staring down the barrel of a disasterous/ shambolic Brexit ” negotiation” no doubt ( if she remains in office?) she wants to ” share the blame” for ” the bad news to come” as Brexit outcomes become more clear in these negotiations. Possibly this call to unity could be the ” forerunner to a Tory call for ” a government of National unity” if Brexit becomes a ” National crisis” . If this ” call to unity” ultimately fails ( perhaps by end of year) then rather than the Tories taking the flak for ongoing ” Brexit crisis” then possibly plan B will be impacted by the Establishment and a GE will be called . Labour then will have to ” take the baton” and ” run with the Brexit negotiation”. This will suit the Tories as 2 or 3 years down the line , when possibly even an ” extension to negotiations” is agreed , the Tories can then blame Labour for failure to conclude an exit deal.
This scenario has the advantage of probably ” kicking any Indyref2 ” down the line” , closer to ( or even past) the next Holyrood election. Our FM would have to obviously call Indyref2 prior to this date ( whatever stage Brexit has reached).Hopefully the situation Scotland faces will be somewhat more clear for our electorate by then ( and our businesses) , and support for Independence in the polls has increased ? Westminster will have to be confronted by our Holyrood government and when this referendum takes place , if it is again a binary choice then the ” unionist offer” must be completely transparent and never again must ” a vow con” be allowed to stymie the Yes vote . This fraud should have rendered the result in Sept 14 as inadmissible, especially after the Smith commission ” cop out”. A re run is necessary notwithstanding ” Brexit” and the EU ” material change”. Hopefully our FM ” bides her time” and thereafter finally delivers our Independence. She deserves no less.
Some people intent on insulting others, including 100,000+ SNP members. Should maybe learn to take their own advice and keep quiet. Insulting others and then claiming outstanding personal insult. Is rather surprising. Trolls take delight in it. trying to ruin websites.
The best any of us can do for Independence is use our own vote for it, the next best is encourage others to do the same by showing an Independent Scotland and it’s government in a positive light.
Do that as often as you can, the alternative is a Westminster government forever. Forever for me, means at least in my lifetime.
@Ken500
Yes you do, ken.
Now, how d’ya like them bananas? Peeled or fried?
Just received a Voter registration form from NLC. Wee Brenda will have apoplexy an so will the ither Brenda Tick Tock ,Tick Tock.
@Thepnr
Hearts and minds, hearts and minds.
Ottomanboi @ 15:04,
Now that is just the kind of agent provocateur 101 nonsense that we don’t need. GTF.
Petra @ 14:27. See my posting upthread at 10:20. I’m not entirely uncritical of the SNP at present but at least I did try to oblige!
@Robert J. Sutherland
Pretty pathetic really, new boy cutting his teeth maybe lol.
OK, I’ll try again.
Theresa May is now calling for “helpful contributions”. The first genuine helpful contribution she received was way back when, and it was from the SG. It still remains the only substantive contribution offered. Nicola and Co were told at the time to take a hike. Not much sign that it’s being reconsidered now, either.
Whatever you may think about the SG’s “slowly, slowly catchee monkey” strategy – and we clearly have mixed feelings about that – just think what kind of funk the Mayhem Gang must be in if they are now pleading to Uncle Tom Corbyn and all for support for their kamikaze mission.
They are hurting far worse than us, peeps, it’s just that they are desperately trying not to show it.
And once again, the brave little corporal is missing in action…
Hmmm…
Some folk (way back up the thread) seem very keen on putting us off Indyref2.
And suggesting that we talk too much about Brexit.
Which IS of interest to the entire World. The ripples of David Cameron’s greatest gaffe WILL be felt around the entire World.
And not in a good way.
So, shut up about Indyref AND shut up about Brexit…
Must be getting to them = )
Ottomanboi @ 3.05 pm 11th July
Not all British colonies had to fight for their independence.
Ridiculously, that is a recent history I do not know well (anyone?) but so far as I recall from the 1960s, the Islands of the Caribbean did not have to fight for their independence. What about Australia and New Zealand? And the many many countries around the World that gained Independence quietly?
Perhaps some colonies were let go because they no longer lined the coffers of the British Empire.
Scotland, despite being told otherwise, is a huge healthy cash cow for what is left of the great British Empire and they, the last of the ruling elite, won’t let go of that tie easily.
But we are getting there = )
Thepnr and Robert J Sutherland, Well said 🙂
@Ghillie
There was a House of Lords paper I uncovered ages ago, about the Falkland Islands which are potentially covered by the UN Decolonisation Committee – which is basically South American run.
Basically, if neccessary the UK Gov would help the Falklands to Independence, which might require the UK Gov to help provide defence, and even other things. But in that case the FI would be sovereign, just choosing to “contract out” services to the UK.