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Wings Over Scotland

Is this a trick question?

Posted on July 31, 2013 by

For some reason which escapes our understanding, the operator of the misleadingly-named “Scottish Labour” Twitter account chose to tweet this message this afternoon.


We know the answer, but we’re jiggered if we get the point.

Because these things are a matter of public record, and it’s easy enough to find out – five out of six SNP MPs voted for the bill, with Alex Salmond absent. He was far from alone – 122 other MPs weren’t in the Commons for the division, including around 70 Labour members, of whom 20 were Ministers.

(There wasn’t actually a vote on the Minimum Wage Bill on 31 July 1998 – the core decision in the Commons was taken on 16 December the preceding year.)

It’s surprising the number of absentees was so low, because the bill passed by an enormous margin of 242 votes and was never in any danger of failing, so it’d have been understandable if a few more had taken the afternoon off.

Had Mr Salmond been at a loose end he could have popped out for a glass of Irn Bru with some distinguished figures who also bodyswerved the vote such as Jack Straw, Robin CookMo Mowlam, Henry McLeish (for these were pre-Scottish Parliament times), Clare Short, and last but not least, the Prime Minister himself, Tony Blair.

SNP turnout for the vote was 83.3%, compared to 84.9% for the Labour Party whose bill it was. Seriously, it’s not a rhetorical question – does anyone have the SLIGHTEST clue what “Scottish Labour” are trying to get at here?

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    81 to “Is this a trick question?”

    1. Jimbo says:

      Apart from trying to give people the false impression that the SNP voted against, I can’t see the point in it.

    2. Gordon Bain says:

      It’s just Labour for ye. They are so all-consumed with the anti-SNP diatribe that they can’t see the wood for the trees.
      O/T so sorry to be so quick but I’d really like to know the general feeling of yourself Rev and the regular contributors here as to the legitimacy of LFI. Things are really kicking off on Facebook the past couple of days and I’d like to know if there’s a consensus feeling on here by the people I trust. My feeling is they’re a con but what do I know.

    3. rabb says:

      Nail, head & hit.

    4. CameronB says:

      I think basketball players call that a slam dunk by the Rev.

    5. ianbrotherhood says:

      Given that ‘WoS’ has as much constitutional legitimacy as ‘Scottish Labour’ (and heaven-only-knows how many more active members) I’m quite sure we can leave it in your capable hands to ‘Tweet’ them their arse on a platter on our behalf (i.e. if you haven’t already).

    6. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      That is exactly the picture I had in mind, “arse on a plater”.

    7. The Man in the Jar says:

      Reads like a Twitter Toddler Tantrum to me. So Na, na, na, na, na!

    8. rabb says:

      Definitely not a con. There are a number of card carrying Labour members.

      My personal opinion is that today’s pish is an act of desperation by SLAB.

      Of course LFI members are going to be photographed with SNP, SSP, Scottish Greens etc.

      It would be no different from BT campaigners from SLAB & Tories being pictured together on a BT street stall; if they were ever to manage to get one setup without it being manned by SLAB & Tory councilors that is.
      I say their the real thing.

    9. Shinty says:

      Think they’re just firing off a few rounds as a means of delaying who they are putting up for the indy debate.
      Must be all that ‘bile’ coming from Wings – you know what I mean, all the stuff that says 

    10. The Man in the Jar says:

      I love the smell of desperation in the evening!

    11. Murray McCallum says:

      Scotch Labour – “The matter is being investigated & we’re reviewing Twitter access.”
      Well I’m sure somebody in the northern shire said that.

    12. Silverytay says:

      Gordon ,  I agree with rabb that they are the real thing .
      I am an ex labour member and when I was on their site they asked me to rejoin the labour party  which they would not do if it was an SNP front .
      The other thing was that at their conference at the weekend they voted against joining NATO , which again is totally against what the SNP are saying .

    13. Sneddon says:

      Gordon – LFI Good guys, SLAB bad.  Good luck top Alan and the rest of them in giving a voice to the real labour folk still left in the party.  They’ve got hell of job bringing the party back to its roots but I’m glad they are with us in this campaign.  If you can make it go hear Alan or one of his colleagues speak at an event.

    14. Alex Clark says:

      Gordon I’m not a regular contributor here but as a new member for LFI who only found out about this site through them I can only say that I believe them to be “the real deal”. I’m a lifelong Labour supporter and former party member who has only recently decided to seriously take part in the debate on the YES side because of LFI.
      Lets hope that they, LFI convince enough Labour supporters in Scotland to join them and vote YES then the real debates can begin after the referendum.

    15. Adam Fitzpatrick says:

      Hey everyone,

      Speaking of Labour, check out Better Together’s latest scaremongering lie:
      And here’s Labour for Indy’s response:!news-release-310713/c1a5x
      I think this pretty much seals it. There are no depths to which Better Together will not sink.

    16. Surely the question in the tweet is tailor-made for being answered by The Truth Team, isn’t it?

    17. Ron Burgundy says:

      Simple Stuart it fits the SLAB narrative – Alex Salmond is not interested in the poor or low paid – so they dredge up a wee puff piece like this. The context you describe explains the situation well – it was not a crucial one off vote or one that was likely to be lost and the notable absentees shred the validity of the SLAB tweet
      All part of the usual blind, heart thumping, face contorting bilious hatred they have for the First Minister in particular and the SNP in general.
      It is actually quite strange and worrying because it is unhealthy for one group to hate another in this way – history is littered with examples of where this goes.

    18. Shinty says:

      SLAB bad, LFI good – I agree, but at the end of the day the only difference I can see between LFI & the SNP is NATO.
      To be honest NATO is not high on my list of priorities one way or the other.
      Independence first, then you can vote for your priorities in 2016

    19. HandandShrimp says:

      I think the problem is that the “Scottish” Labour contingent have a difficulty that is essentially incurable…
      They are morons.

    20. alexicon says:

      The biased BBC is playing up the LFI angle by Sarwar that it is just a front for the SNP.
      So can we expect the BBC to headline a news item showing Alistair Darling and his new Labour cronies in bitter together are just a front for the tories? After all Darling has been to fund raising dinners for the BT mob in Chelsea, taken money from an infamous tory donor and even spoke at the Scottish tory conference. I won’t hold my breath.
      I never gave it a thought that we all (SNP, greens etc.) could help out LFI by handing out leaflets.
      Why not, after all we’re all after the same thing. Thank you BBC for that idea.
      Can’t seem to get an updated version, recent news etc. on LFI, I don’t do puss book,
      Any ideas out there?

    21. ScottyC1314 says:

      Labour in Scotland is dead….it died a long time go but the corpse began to stink in 97. I don’t buy in to the “we will rescue our party post Indy” talk. I cannot forgive the party for its behaviour now and what it has become.

      After independence there will be new (or more credible) parties for the left to vote for and I for one will do nothing to help bring labour back from the dead. 

    22. Dcanmore says:

      The tweeter is either misinformed, trying to sow a lie or spreading doubt while trying to say ‘look at us and the good things we do’. Probably all of those things together. I think there is a crisis of confidence among Labour in Scotland that leads to random tweets or announcements like this. You could reply about the Bedroom Tax and say how many Labour MPs bothered to vote against it, or how many Labour MPs supported the illegal war in Iraq (so much for Internationalism, no cause for the Iraqi plumber, electrician and train driver when the bombs rained down on them and their families). And then of course is Universalism, how many Labour MPs still support that cause and any others that were the bedrock of the party. Quite frankly you can go on forever highlighting what Labour have betrayed.

    23. muttley79 says:

      LFI are genuine in my opinion.  There are SLAB party members involved in the group.  Very good addition to the independence movement.  The fact that some in the MSM are beginning to have a go at them means they are doing something right.  The media and the Unionists know they do not have a positive case for the Union.  Therefore, we should expect the whole independence movement to get attacked, particularly from the Euan McColm’s of the MSM.   

    24. Indy_Scot says:

      I haven’t watched Reporting Scotland in months due to not being able to stomach their biased undertones. However I thought I would watch it tonight at 10.25pm as I saw there would be a story about a report suggesting that an Independent Scotland could be well placed to shape Welfare and pensions policies. It all sounded quite upbeat.
      However I should have known better, Raymond Buchanan managed to turn the story into a depressing – Scots will age faster and all die if Scotland becomes Independent. If you did not know that BBC Scotland was biased, you would be forgiven for pissing your pants at the thought of Scotland being Independent.
      I would not be surprised if they all turned up wearing vote No Tee shirts soon.

    25. DougtheDug says:

      John-Paul McHugh, Scottish officer at Community Trade Union had the same line in his piece on left foot forward.
      “Working together with trade unionists across the UK we have achieved so much. From the National Minimum Wage, which the SNP failed to support, to health and safety legislation, pooling our resources across the UK has resulted in significant improvements for our workers.”
      Like Alex Salmond being a dictator, the SNP being to the right of Labour and the existence of an SNP co-ordinated team of cybernats it appears to be the accepted version of Labour history. Unless John-Paul McHugh wrote the tweet of course.

    26. ianbrotherhood says:

      We’ll soon know if LFI is ‘real’ or not – on Calton Hill, Edinburgh, Sept 21st

    27. The Man in the Jar says:

      I Say! Just spotted the Major advertising Tescos strawberries on the television. A spot of moonlighting what!

    28. muttley79 says:

      Did you go last year Ian? 

    29. Tris says:

      No idea WHAT they are trying to show or prove or WHY, and as you point out there is no such thing as Scottish Labour, so i don’t know WHO they are either.

    30. Albert Herring says:

      Scottish Labour are a sham group. a Tory front organisation.

    31. ianbrotherhood says:

      No. I wasn’t there last year.
      Only time I was on Calton Hill was for the ‘Declaration’, back in 2004 (?!) – Sheridan was the ‘main event’, but he was curiously lacklustre, didn’t seem to rise to the occasion despite the best efforts of Tam Dean Burn and others to get the whole thing going.
      With the benefit of hindsight, it’s possible to surmise why Sheridan wasn’t firing on all cylinders when it was so perfectly staged for him to do-so, but that ‘Declaration of Calton Hill’ remains a powerful document, and one that remains a feasible framework for the constitution we all want to see:

    32. rabb says:

      It’s the political equivalent of Kevin Keegan’s meltdown on Sky Sports in 96.

      For those unfamiliar with it, he capitulated under the stress of Alex Ferguson’s mind games and went on a mad rant live on TV. 

    33. Chic McGregor says:

      “I love the smell of desperation in the evening!”
      Love it.  Only possible improvement I would make would be:
      “I love the smell of nae plan in the evening!”

    34. Angus McLellan says:

      This public service broadcast is brought to you by the Department of Almost Everything I Know About Legal Methods Came Out Of Cheap Novels And Bad Films.
      The Divorce Trial Manual (thank you Google Books!) contains this helpful bit of advice in its ‘Basic Rules of Cross-Examination’ chapter: Never Ask A Question If You Don’t Know The Answer. The same advice is also to be found in various forms in the works of John Grisham, in one of Michael’s Connelly ‘Lincoln Lawyer’ books and on lots of websites. Not a secret then.
      We now return you to your regular scheduled programming.

    35. Susan says:

      I have met Alex Bell from LFI, it was so refreshing to see a Labour Party member that is actually a socialist. He definitely was not SNP member or supporter!

    36. Chic McGregor says:

      With past polls indicating anything from 20% to 40% of Labour voters in support of independence, i.e several hundred thousand voters, the idea that some kind of Labour for independence movement would not happen is palpably ridiculous.

    37. Chic McGregor says:

      @TMITJ 2
      BTW Sheena and I once passed Bobby Duvall, with a dolly bird in tow, in Sauchiehall St.   No kidding. (He didn’t recognise me) 🙂

    38. Chic McGregor says:

      Well done Rev. another bit of U-spin rebutted.  Your assiduousness is exceptional.

    39. Chic McGregor says:

      New movie “Lies, Damned Lies and State Tactics”.

    40. Edinburgh Quine says:

      It should also be noted it is the SNP run council in Dundee that has introduced the living wage.  And the SNP Group in Moray, before the last local elections, had the living wage introduced for council workers there.  So to suggest that Alex Salmond and by default the SNP is not interested in poor people is unutterable nonsense.

    41. Iain More says:

      I guess the same SLAB individual will share Nigel Farages view of Labour Voters for Indy as well? Well aren’t they all Scot Nats in drag? Except for policy on NATO that is? Does that make them more Facist or less Facist in Brit Nat Demonology? I am not sure.

    42. Doug Daniel says:

      I think SLAB have just become so detached from reality and truth that they’ve decided it’s perfectly acceptable for them to just rewrite history, safe in the knowledge that their loyal acolytes will comply, just like the Party members in Nineteen Eighty-Four. I’m sure it won’t be long until they start just completely making up election histories.  “When we won a majority in 2011…”, “when the Thatcher-led SNP destroyed Scottish industry…”, “when Johann Lamont created the NHS…” Oh okay, that last one is a bit far-fetched.
      Incidentally, Euan McColm is remarkably keen to destroy Labour For Indy, isn’t he? For a supposedly neutral journalist, he sure is happy to so SLAB’s dirty work for them, isn’t he? It’s funny how his “Exposé” has come so soon after Andy Nicholl was so keen to find out LFI’s numbers. It’s almost as if they’re being prompted by someone…
      (And I notice Glenn Campbell says he knows an ex Labour MSP who is nudging towards a Yes and David Leask knows a Labour politician who is a Yes – I wonder if it’s the same person?)

    43. Angus McPhee says:

      HoraceSaysYes says:
      31 July, 2013 at 10:46 pm

      “Surely the question in the tweet is tailor-made for being answered by The Truth Team, isn’t it?”
      Well It would be if there was some way to contact them to ask them to answer it.

    44. Piemonteis says:

      Regarding LFI, the fact is that the only ideological difference between Scottish Labour and the SNP is independence, so once that wall comes down it’s only logical that Independence Labour and SNP policies will be almost identical. All other present Scottish Labour policies are rooted in its stance on independence: nuclear weapons, welfare, House of Lords, etc. And if the party moved from supporting the union, these policies would be untenable.
      It’s clear what Sarwar is trying to do, and that’s to paint LFI with the toxic-in-Labour-circles SNP brush, thereby making sure any tempted Labour voters will be turned off joining. Unfortunately, I think this tactic will work for them and the group will be viewed with greater skepticism by the Labour loyalists.
      Regarding the SLAB tweet, if that’s the best they can ‘dig up’ on Salmond over a 30-year political career, then mud will never stick in the run-up to September of next year.

    45. Edward Barbour says:

      In my humble opinion LFI are the real deal
      It is because they are the real deal, they are now being targeted by Better Together and Labour in Scotland to discredit them any which way they can. The most obvious being to insinuate that its a front for the SNP. Its a crass tactic, to connect one group who are attracting genuine Labour supporters, with the so called ‘arch enemy’ (the SNP). This can only mean that the LFI are doing something right and are hurting Labour in Scotland and attracting pro independence support.
      In a future independent Scotland, the LFI will be the core to a genuine socialist Labour party in Scotland
      I have been a Labour supporter since the early 70’s and activist helping with canvassing when my late father was an election agent. I’ve voted for Labour at every election right up to 2001 at which point I became disillusioned with what had happened to Labour
      I hope that the likes of Better Together get screwed and that Scotland can break free and move forward

    46. Angus McPhee says:

      Twitter is a handy wee test tool. Spin out a few stories , check the reaction, if it gets rebuffed move on to the next one, only the people following you have seen it , keep an eye on places like this to see if it’s easily picked apart. if there’s no reaction showing it to be false it can be moved up to the more public campaign.
      now I come to think of it maybe you should ignore the obviously silly/ outlandish ones so they think they are goers.

    47. Macart says:

      Clearly Mr Grogan is now considered a viable threat by both BT and Parliamentary Labour. The fact he has warranted the attention of the attack dogs alone should be regarded as a good sign of change. 

    48. megsmaw06 says:

      LFI, if you’re at the receiving end of an SLAB smear attack, you’re doing something right. Just ask the SNP!
      Keep up the good work!

    49. Patrick Roden says:

      @ Horace, A question tailor made or maybe (Ian) ‘Taylor’ made !   See what I did there?
      I think LFI are the real deal and so does the Labour Party. The attacks on LFI since their first conference at the weekend has ben savage. BT must have been spewing that LFI got so much publicity, even from the BBC!.
      I try to comment on their FaceBook page and offer my support.
      As the campaign progresses, they will become a vital  tool for reaching out to the many independence leaning labour voters.

    50. Seasick Dave says:


      That’s clean through the erse of the barrel.

    51. Gordon Bain says:

      There are some on Facebook trying to stifle any criticism of Labour from SNP members. They say it’s unwise to rattle them. They also say it’s unwise to bring up voting records. I find it difficult to reconcile campaigning for independence on the one hand whilst on the other insisting on remaining members of a political entity that is actively campaigning against you.

    52. Albalha says:

      Re Labour members, rumours and YES, I heard it was Jack McConnell.
      But rumours are rumours of course.

    53. Paul Martin says:

      As UK Labour become increasingly and visibly unlikely to form a 2015 UK govt, expect “Scottish” Labour to become increasingly twisted and bitter in their attacks. No lie will go untold.

    54. Peter A Bell says:

      This is an example of a phenomenon which I have remarked upon several times. If I was to coin a term for it I might settle for “curtailed thinking”. What happens is that someone in British Labour or one of the other British parties or Project Fear comes up with something that for want of a better word we will call an “idea”. Possibly prompted by some piece of data that they have happened upon in their eternal quest for a stick with which to beat the SNP and/or Scotland’s civic nationalist movement.
      What happens then is that they consider the deployment of this piece of data – mistaking it for actual information – only so far as the first and least sophisticated sound-bite that they encounter. At which point, all thinking stops.
      It is said that, in the courtroom, a lawyer never asks a question unless he/she knows what the answer is going to be. Similarly, in debate one should never deploy a gambit unless one knows what ones opponent’s response will be. This depends crucially on the capacity to approach the question from all angles. Severe deficiency in this capacity being almost the definition of bigotry.
      A further consequence of curtailed thinking is a tendency to fall into the trap of taking as actual what is merely wished for. In the instance under discussion, somebody discovered that Alex Salmond was not present for a vote at Westminster on a minimum wage. This was immediately latched onto as something that could be used against him and the SNP. It would, of course, be even better if none of the SNP MPs voted for the legislation. The wish that it were so was all that was required.
      Nobody questioned the facts behind the assertion being made. Nobody considered the possible responses from opponents. Nobody thought it through. Quite literally, all thinking stopped.
      The psychology of all this is fascinating. Truly fascinating.

    55. Simon says:

      Since the minimum wage legislation came in, has inequality and the standard of living for the poorest gone up or down? Genuine question.

    56. Doug Daniel says:

      Albalha – surely not?! Can you remember where you heard that? That would be amazing.
      I was assuming it would be some random ex-MSP that everyone’s forgotten about, although I suppose if that was the situation, what would they have to lose by making their feelings known?
      Either that or Henry McLeish finally deciding to stop being such a tease…

      Peter – “something that for want of a better word we will call an “idea”.”

      Love it!

    57. Macart says:

      I wonder how many are looking to jump ship? They do have the opportunity coming up in the very near future.
      Once the white paper is published say? It’ll start slowly a case of ‘well now that I’ve seen the bones fleshed out on the SGs proposals, I can see some merit…. etc’. Then the feelers will come out; ‘There’s real possibilities that if our parties could work together on…’. Which will be followed by open condemnation of Westminster policies on welfare, immigration et al and concluded with ‘right, we’re backing indy’. It’ll only need a few weel kent faces and most of us have our ideas of who they might be.
      But watch for the reaction to the white paper. If BT can’t bury it, the gates will open.

    58. Albalha says:

      Let’s just say third handish, so may well be off the mark, hence my ‘rumours’ remark, but who knows. The fact it’s being played, from a media perspective in the way it is, does suggest to me it could well be someone more well known than not.
      As for Henry McLeish I just assume he will at some point, but maybe it is him they’re alluding to.
      We’ll see.

    59. scottish_skier says:

      In the recent panelbase poll, of the rather paltry numbers who would vote Labour for Holyrood, 15% plan to vote Yes & 20% are giving Yes consideration. So 35% of Labour voters not ready to back the union this poll. I’ve seen higher in others.

      BT can pretend it LFI does not exist, but it most certainly does.

      I think LFI are the real deal and so does the Labour Party. The attacks on LFI since their first conference at the weekend has ben savage. BT must have been spewing that LFI got so much publicity, even from the BBC!.

      Yep. LFI have finally started to pop up on the radar and BT howl and scream in response. At the STUC which won’t back BT as well. That tells you all you need to know.

    60. Shinty says:

      Re Labour members, rumours and YES, I heard it was Jack McConnell.
      But rumours are rumours of course.
      Good heavens, lets hope it’s just a rumour, otherwise I might be forced to vote no! Wouldn’t want him anywhere near an iScotland government or parliament.

    61. Luigi says:

      Yep, I think with LFI have now definitely passed the “First they ignore you” stage.  They seem to be on the right track!

    62. Dunc says:

      What are they getting at? Smear by innuendo of course, with a side-order of plausible deniability. They know damn well that very few people are actually going to look up the facts, but will simply accept the implied (and completely false) conclusion. It’s a way of telling lies without actually telling lies. Also very popular with tabloid sub-editors…

    63. Greg Hendry says:

      Given Labours track record with fact checking perhaps they are seriously asking? The next tweet will probably be “ok guys so does anyone know how many Tories voted in favour?”

    64. HandandShrimp says:

      It shows how out of touch SLab are with modern media though. It is impossible to make such assertions without it being rebutted within minutes of publication. Given that there far more and far better organised Yes activists on the internet they are just setting themselves up for a fall.
      They never seem to learn though which is the very definition of stupid. One would have thought that the last Times poll showing the SNP on 48% and Labour on 30% would have been a warning call that whatever they are doing it is failing badly.

    65. Vronsky says:

      LFI are certainly kosher, in that they are members of the Labour Party who wish to see independence.  I’ve met them on the street and heard them speak at meetings.  My only doubt is that perhaps they are a ‘stay behind’ team – a group which has been created to give Labour some credible path back to power should the referendum go against them.
      Re defecting MSP, it certainly won’t be MacConnell.  He’s a rent boy and will follow the money.  McLeish would be no surprise, but only when Yes begins to look inevitable, which is still half a year away.   At that point of course, we’ll discover that all the Labour folk had been separatists all along, just ensuring there was a proper debate, please don’t stop the paycheck,  etc., etc..

    66. Dal Riata says:

      @Peter A Bell
      Excellent analogy of Project Fear sub-section (Scottish) Labour’s anti-Scottish independence/SNP/Alex Salmond/etc. group-think. I think you’ve got it more or less spot on! Food for thought, indeed.

    67. Albalha says:

      From your intial post took a wee look at D Leask’s Twitter feed.
      The ‘I know a Labour polticain who’ll be voting YES but won’t come out cos they hate the SNP, does anyone else know one?’
      To which people reply … ‘Yes I know one too, but doubt they’d ever come out, for the same reason’.
      That truly is madness writ large, both from the tweeters and the Labour politicians who’ll be voting YES but not passionate enough to campaign publically.
      Why do so called ‘journalists’ mainstream or otherwise feel it necessary to keep quiet.
      It’s a bloody good story surely, but then maybe that’s not what it’s about for them anymore. And as for ….. ah it was ‘off the record’.
      Lamposts and dogs is how it should be, as someone once said. 

    68. Iain says:

      Am I right in thinking that the current Labour For Independence/SNP ‘storm’ is based around 2 photos, one originally published on Facebook in December by an LFI/Labour member naming the other people in the pic and identifying them as SNP in comments below, the other photo showing 3 SNP councillors helping to hold up an LFI banner but with the caption identifying them cropped out by interested parties.? Meanwhile the Maguffin SLAB are running with is that the SNP, cunningly and duplicitously, have instructed ‘prominent’, publicly elected councillors to masquerade as LFI-ers?

    69. Bugger (the panda) says:

      Peter A Bell at 08:46am
      I think it is necessary, in order to be a Better Together thinker, to have a special brain setting called “Fucking Stupid” which has to be engaged more and more often as the campaign progresses.
      They are on a closed loop and will inevitably self-destruct. I hope about 6 weeks from the Referendum

    70. Jeannie says:

      Hmmmm…..that tweet has given me an idea of my own…along the lines of:
      On this day in 1999 Tony Blair and Donald Dewer, just prior to the opening of the first Scottish Parliament in 300 years, secretly moved the Scotland/England maritime boundary and annexed 6000 square miles of Scottish waters into England. The boundary is now somewhere around Montrose.

    71. Scaraben says:

      Since Labour now seem to be recognising that LfI actually exist, I wonder whether they will expel known LfI members from the Labour party. If they actually believe that LfI is connected in any way to the SNP, this would perhaps be the ‘logical’ next step, given their hatred of the SNP.
      This might be the best outcome, if LfI then become the ‘Real Scottish Labour’ party, providing a viable alternative for those Labour supporters who are still loyal to the party which they may have supported for many years, but who are uncomfortable with its Unionist stance and the changes wrought by Blair and his New Labour cronies.
      Otherwise, LfI will try to reform Labour in Scotland from within, and this will be a mammoth task; I would wish them well in this, but with no expectation that they will have much success.

    72. Patrick Roden says:

      Yes bud spot on. that’s how it happened and believe it or not, I’ve had comments allowed on the Herald article about it, by Magnus Gardham allowed.
      This is lying and deceit, pure and simple. 

    73. wee 162 says:

      I’m one of the people who replied to that saying “yes I know someone”, they’re a current MSP, and frankly I like them. Come out in favour of independence and they’d be deselected and another faceless careerist Labour nonentity would replace them. It’s up to them if they want to come out and vote for it, and also whether they want to campaign for it. I’m not outing anyone who doesn’t want to be outed.
      The other thing is that if they were to come out now, then they can be marginalised in the run up to the referendum. Leave it till a couple of months before the referendum, and you have a story blowing up about Labour MSPs not even supporting retaining the union. I’ve no idea if that’s what this MSP wants to do, but doing it now would be hugely counterproductive.

    74. Doug Daniel says:

      wee 162 – that’s fair enough, it’s their choice, and as you say, the closer to the referendum, the more impact it’ll have. Still, I hope such people won’t hide their support forever.
      It would be a huge story if they declare their support and then find themselves out of the party or whatever. But I suppose even pro-indy Labour members still don’t necessarily want to damage their party, so who knows?

    75. Albalha says:

      Two points I suppose I was making ….are you in the journalism business? If not then that part is irrelevant to you, if so I disagree.
      And if the Labour machine is such a fear inducing beast to the extent that its own members are so scared of speaking out too early, ie now, lest they be totally sidelined but will be doing it with 2 months to go ……..leaves me speechless.
      They’re up for it or they’re not, it’s a risk all manner of people are willing to take. Look at someone like Lesley Riddoch, undoubtedly by declaring as a YES she will lose work and as a freelance that matters. Sometimes you just have to go for it. 

    76. wee 162 says:

      I’ve literally no idea what they’re planning to do and whether they will come public at all about the way they’ll vote.
      Pure speculation on my part about why they may not be comfortable about going public with this by the way. I’ve only spoken to them about why they were voting yes, not what they were going to do with it.

    77. Dennis Webster says:

      Alan Grogan from @labourforindy on @NewsnightScot 11pm tonight.

    78. RodneySofa says:

      In the words of the quite good Stuart Lee’s taxi driver, “You can win any argument with facts”.
      Nice one Rev.

    79. G H Graham says:

      OT – A Scot walks into a London bureau de change recently and politely asks the guy to change £100 in Scottish notes to Bank of England notes.

      He is offered £94.16 in return for taking a 5.82% cut.

      Doesn’t sound like we’re in a currency union now, never mind AFTER the referendum.

    80. grahamlive says:

      Scottish Labour are utterly obsessed with Alex Salmond. Honestly, they’re like fundamentalist Christians who bang on about Satan all the time.

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