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Wings Over Scotland

How to waste your vote

Posted on August 13, 2020 by

We’ve been having a closer look at the latest polling for next year’s Holyrood election (YouGov, from this week), and in particular the list numbers. We thought you might be interested in a little stat from them.

That’s the full breakdown. But that’s not the graphic that really tells the story.

Assuming that turnout was the same as 2016, the YouGov figures would translate to 1,213,000 list votes for pro-indy parties, and 939,000 for Unionist parties.

But all those votes would deliver just seven pro-indy list seats (three down on 2016 despite the pro-indy vote share going up from 48% to 53%), and 48 Unionist list seats.

If your primary motivation at next year’s election is “being fair to Unionists and keeping people like Annie Wells, Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie, Jamie Greene, James Kelly, Alex Cole-Hamilton and Kirstene Hair in Parliament”, and if those are the people you think are best qualified to hold an SNP government to account and pressure them to pursue independence meaningfully, then by all means give both your votes to the SNP.

If not, it might be something you want to think about.

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  1. 13 08 20 16:57

    How to waste your vote | speymouth

  2. 29 09 20 23:17

    In response to Victoria Gianopoulos-Johnson – Thoughts from a Scottish Yorkie

253 to “How to waste your vote”

  1. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Can’t wait to see the SGP take on this.

  2. Tom Halliday says:

    Essentially correct, but we will have to box clever with who stands where, we dont want to fragment the list vote to the point where it works to the unionists advantage, I look forward to further analysis nearer the time of the vote, we do have a chance to destroy the unionist representation and we need the SNP and its supporters to embrace that concept.

  3. BAINBY says:

    Eye opening……..

  4. Alastair Wright says:

    There’s a quote, or is it a paraphrase? attributed to Einstein about repeatably doing something, expecting a different outcome and a state of mind…

  5. Muscleguy says:

    Exactly which is part of why I joined the ISP. Here in the NE it would be all Unionists. So if you vote in the NE region please also think before you completely waste your vote on the SNP.

  6. Neil Mackenzie says:

    If that’s right then the Unionist parties are obviously gaming the system. How underhand is that?…

    Not underhand!

    Oh. Hmmm. OK.

  7. ALANM says:

    Both votes SNP = more seats for unionist numpties. That’s why we have the system we have.

  8. Sharny Dubs says:

    And don’t pay any attention to what the SNP tell you, they are just talking through the massive hole in the multiple mandates they were gifted!!

  9. Sinky says:

    Several pro indy parties with no track record or coherent policies standing in addition to a well established Green Party could endanger a pro Indy majority if there is a low turn out or change in circumstances reduces the SNP constituency vote.

  10. Shug says:

    What does salmond say

  11. Shug says:

    Get me salmond

  12. defo says:

    Contemptuous Dani Fucking Garavalli just on R4 announces that she has a program on Big Auntie radio next Tuesday at 8pm.
    “Scotland’s uncivil war”
    NS vs AS

  13. robertknight says:

    Ah yes, the old ‘if you don’t vote SNP 1 & 2 you’ll let a Unionist alliance into Holyrood and they’ll wreck it’ argument.

    For all the Pete Wishy-washouts and others who flit about the place peddling that plate of porkies, the Unionist alliance that can wreck the Scottish Parliament doesn’t potentially sit in Holyrood come next year, but actually sits in Westminster here and now!

    And what is more, it can wreck the Scottish Parliament anytime it likes, and NS/SNP won’t do jack-sh1t about it.

  14. Lindsay says:

    POW WOW is required, by 2021, I think

  15. terence callachan says:

    YES YES YES we already know this

    The problem is though , an alternative to giving both votes to SNP could and most likely would mean that the SNP would not get a majority

    This is why

    So… you can give both votes to the SNP in the knowledge that SNP will get 74 seats out of 129 ,, a clear majority


    You can risk losing that certainty of a clear majority and gamble a bit on getting a bigger majority
    by giving your first vote ( the constituency vote ) to the SNP and
    your second vote ( the regional vote ) to one of the LIST PARTY,s

    The idea being that the LIST party’s will take seats previously given to the conservatives Labour Lib Dem as LIST seats

    There is great uncertainty in giving your second vote ( regional vote ) to one of the LIST party’s there more than one who knows how many there will be by then , they will without doubt split the Scottish independence vote and lose LIST seats that SNP might have gained.

    These LIST party’s are being run by people who have already failed to make their LIST party
    “ ONE POLICY “party’s

    A LIST party should have only one policy “ Scottish Independence “ but they don’t
    That’s because they’re not in it just for Scottish independence

    Forget them

    Give BOTH VOTES TO SNP It will guarantee a majority for SNP and Scottish independence

    DONT GAMBLE AN SNP MAJORITY it’s too valuable

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The problem is though , an alternative to giving both votes to SNP could and most likely would mean that the SNP would not get a majority”

    That’s absolute shite, as Gavin Barrie detailed at enormous length and in painstaking detail months ago.

  17. Newburghgowfer says:

    At the moment from me it will be No constituency vote and on the list it will be for an Independence Party only if they can get a Candidate.
    I will not be voting for 5 Muppet Parties that currently do nothing to get my vote.
    In the eventuality of no Independence supporting Party in my area(Aberdeenshire)its going to be a no show from me !!

  18. defo says:

    Is that it?
    Is that the best you have got?
    Shall we call it ‘The Judean argument “?

  19. Al-Stuart says:

    Oh Bliss, Oh Bliss, Oh Bliss,

    Stuart Campbell has placed a very elegant cliffhanger as a pre–election taster for some long overdue good news in the run up to the Holyrood election.

    Ya big Torment Mr Campbell 😉

    I love your style.

    Meanwhile does anyone know when Alex Salmond’s book will be published? Any whiff of a launch date? Given the 2021 Holyrood election season is almost upon us, the choice of Alex Salmond’s timing will be very interesting

    Way back 6 years ago in the final fortnight of IndyRef1 during 2014 it is widely acknowledged that we peaked one week too soon, which gave Bitter-Together the minimal margin they needed to win and knock IndyRef1 into the NO camp.

    The 2021 Holyrood election and being on-topic with Stu’s Listy Taster thread means we must surely be getting closer to the formal creation of the SILP = Scottish Independence List Party.

    Perhaps on this thread we could have a quick anagram competition on what new List Party name might be, so that folk who have not followed every grubby, turd infested turn of the alphabet + police + McWoke + Sturgeonite stitch-up can recognise a NEW Indy List Party as GUARANTEEING a dozen or so EXTRA Indy supporting MSPs at Holyrood from May 2021 that can act as the boot up the SNP McWoke-Clique’s arse to secure us Inependence rather than the comfortable gravy train the careerist SNP MSPs and MPs are enjoying right now.

  20. terence callachan says:

    ONLY ONE LIST PARTY COULD EVER WORK in favour of Scottish independence

    FORGET IT there’s more than one already

    These people are dumplings they are already competing with each other



    We then move to the Scottish independence referendum and will get a majority there too this time

    People on here trying to persuade you to abandon SNP for people you know very little about are scheming they’re not Scottish independence supporters

    And of course there are people on here misunderstanding the process their recommendations a certainty to give you a situation FUBAR

    Stick with what you know
    And yes …do look at how Nicola sturgeon has steered the fight against covid19 compared to BJ
    And yes…do look at how Scottish Govt have handled SQA results and revisions compared to BJ

    You won’t be disappointed

    Remember there are spies amongst us trying to get you to move away from the certainty of an SNP win

    Don’t be dumb enough to fall for it just when SNP have the biggest lead in the polls in your lifetime

  21. Alasdair MacLean says:

    excellent article Stuart something to consider

  22. Karen Allan says:

    Yes indeed. Second vote Green!

  23. john rose says:

    Problem there is noone to get behind. Any party tainted by association with failed ssp chancers is not getting my vote. I would vote for a credible list alternative, but suspect (hope) that the powder’s being kept dry on that. If there was an appetite for gaming the system already, I suspect that the greens would have gotten more votes previously, but I just don’t see evidence that enough will take the leap to swing things.

  24. terence callachan says:

    Rev Stuart Campbell …at 5.30pm you said..

    “That’s absolute shite, as Gavin Barrie detailed at enormous length and in painstaking detail months ago.”

    I think it is you who is talking A S as you put it

    Gavin Barrie also said this
    “ For the second vote – the regional assignments – each seat is awarded in a round of calculations. The twist is, the winner of the first list seat in each region isn’t necessarily the party with the most votes in that region. That’s because each party’s regional vote is divided by [the number of constituency seats they won in the first vote +1].“

    I say this
    There is no certainty in the way these LIST seat are won there are too many ifs and buts the calculating process is not readily understandable
    Gambling the certainty that two votes for SNP gives a majority
    To simply get a bigger majority
    Risks losing some of the constituency votes that guarantee the SNP majority
    Your promotion of this risky idea has already seen a lot of people on here saying they will never vote SNP again

    It’s you that’s got it wrong you are gambling

    One thing I’ve learned in life in my 65 years is never gamble a valuable certainty for the chance of more
    Most who do
    End up with nothing

  25. iain mhor says:

    Aye, well really ‘Both votes SNP’ is just a slogan to ensure the Scottish electorate (who are not genetically programmed to understand such things) don’t *ahem accidentally bump an SNP seat.
    A better way of phrasing it would have been ‘If in doubt – both votes SNP’.

    The rest of us have long ago had the nous to vote tactically.
    Of course, the difficulties in informing or ‘educating’ others to the possibility of alternative List voting, becomes increasingly difficult while overwhelmed by that simple disingenuous mantra ‘Both votes SNP’

    It would not take much for an SNP political machine to advance the alternatives and remove doubt. ‘Wings’ does an admirable job of trying to educate on tight constraints – it’s not a difficult concept to promote for a *cough well oiled and funded ‘Party Machine’

    That of course, is only if they wish to engage in education and/or an alliance of pro-independence parties/individuals.
    It’s that, or maintain a default position of suspicion of the electorate, raging paranoia and control freakery.
    It’s politics though – it’s all raging paranoia and control freakery.

    In a lovely world, all those with a single overarching goal would ally and set aside personal animosity to overcome the common enemy.
    *Flicks through Scottish history… aye, as you were.

  26. MightyS says:

    Rev Stu:

    Any progress on a suitable platform for a Wings community yet? I mean, this continuous thread thang we’ve got going on here is all very nice if a bit…primitive.

  27. Dan says:

    Terence coming across as the sort of person that when playing Pontoon would shite themselves and stick with a hand that added up to 10…

  28. Jim Arnott says:

    Heads need to be knocked together and a single “Scottish Independence List Party” agreed. Candidate selection will be crucial focusing on candidates representing pensioners, farmers, legal, academics, business, etc, etc, etc all backed up by high profile well known supporters of Independence.

    Really hope this is underway already.

    And don’t forgot an effective, active rebuttal Unit.

  29. terence callachan says:

    Iain mhor…you said The rest of us have long ago had the nous to vote tactically.

    You are wrong if when you say “ the rest of us “ you mean the rest of scotland

    Tactical voting only works on a simple level
    Where everyone knows the tactics
    You only know the tactics if you know how the plan works and if you know how the results are calculated -MOST DONT

    In fact I would say hardly any of the Scottish electorate know how LIST seats are awarded
    And even fewer know whether or not it would be possible to win a LIST seat in their region with tactical votes given to LIST party’s

    “ For the second vote – the regional assignments – each seat is awarded in a round of calculations. The twist is, the winner of the first list seat in each region isn’t necessarily the party with the most votes in that region. That’s because each party’s regional vote is divided by [the number of constituency seats they won in the first vote +1].

  30. robertknight says:

    TC @ 5:20

    “DONT GAMBLE AN SNP MAJORITY it’s too valuable”



    What are the SNP going to do with another majority?

    More WOKE legislation in the pipeline, coupled with more ‘now is not the time’ due to Covid/Brexit/proof of alien life… whatever? Not forgetting the chance for more of the Wokerati to get their noses in the trough?

    Or will it be the promise of Jam Tomorrow, a.k.a the S30 begging letter that’s frankly not worth the price of the stamp for the envelope?

    Perhaps a period of reflection/opposition might do the SNP some good – a chance for a bit of spring cleaning?

    Scotland’s electorate, having Tories at Holyrood AND Westminster, might find Indy even more attractive than it does currently thanks to BawJaws and Brexit? 53% could be nearer 70% with PM Johnson, FM Ross, a No-deal Brexit AND a recession.

    And before anyone starts banging on about Unionist alliances in Holyrood, see my previous post.

    The SNP now come to expect the vote of Indy supporters.

    Newsflash – they now need to earn it!

  31. defo says:

    “Remember there are spies amongst us…”
    Quite Terry. We know.

  32. terence callachan says:

    Getting desperate Dan ..

    Don’t gamble a certain winner unless you are a fool

  33. terence callachan says:


  34. defo says:

    How does ‘Both votes Indy’ feel?
    Keeping the message simple Tel.

  35. LeggyPeggy says:

    How hard is it for people that after 20 years that they still don’t understand how the voting system works for elections to the Scottish Parliament .

    If the Snp don’t come out and say that they’ll drop the Gra reforms and the hate crime bill before the 2021elections they’ll lose the votes of the majority of women in Scotland who will not vote for the Snp while these bills are still on the table .

    Also another problem for the Snp is if all the “ woke “ people who are announcing that they want to stand and they pass vetting and other people who oppose these bills are rejected for vetting then they’ll be lucky to get constituency seats to get a majority in Holyrood in 2021 because I know many women and also men who are supportive of their female friends and relatives who will spoil their constituency votes .

  36. terence callachan says:

    Rev Stuart Campbell….5.30pm

    Here you see the people already saying they won’t vote for SNP proves my point

    ONE list party could work
    We already have more than one

    votes for a LIST party are absolutely worthless other than as a supplement to SNP
    and yet you have the usual idiots on here saying they won’t vote SNP but will vote LIST party

  37. highseastim says:

    newburghgowfer 5.31 :- up here in Moray if Douglas “3 jobs” Ross stands, I would imagine it’ll be hard to keep him out, so it’ll probably be both votes for the SNP for me.

  38. Heaver says:

    terence callachan : You are clearly a dimwit. One thing I’ve learned in my 61 years is dimwits are incapable of understanding how little they understand.

    Dani Garivelli. Just heard her puffpiece ad for her take on AS V NS. She sounds like a gossiping wee stirrer, with squeeky wee Leask in the background like an obedient gasp/horror! I get the very strong impression that they have bought in to the myth that circling their wagons will save them.

  39. defo says:

    I hope that Auntie has had her various pre-inquiry hatchet pieces lawyered real good.
    How’s about a special Stu?
    Real time evisceration, lie by lie, omission by omission.

  40. terence callachan says:

    LeggyPeggy….6.13pm…you said

    How hard is it for people that after 20 years that they still don’t understand how the voting system works for elections to the Scottish Parliament .

    Very hard …for some
    Not everyone takes an interest in how or why …

    A voting system should be simple and easily understood by ALL voters

    If it’s not …it’s an inadequate system

  41. crisiscult says:

    terence callachan

    Not sure if you’re in the know but if you have any idea on this, I’d like to hear your thoughts:

    Will the SNP stand on a manifesto that sets out a clear ‘no S30’ route to indy aka their plan B? If the manifesto and campaign are like 2019 I’m not sure what I’d be getting with an SNP vote anyway, since we all know WM won’t grant a S30 in anyone’s lifetime. If they do offer something concrete, my SNP vote is safe.

  42. defo says:

    Sorry, should add…
    Obviously advertising, using the good guy network.
    We could make a party of it.
    I’m sure Craig would be in, you never know, the Big man himself might grace us !

  43. Bob Mack says:

    @Terry Callachan,

    They are staying a reason why they will vote for another party, as I shall do on the list.

  44. terence callachan says:

    Heaver……thanks Heaver , have we met before ?
    No don’t think so

    So you disagree with what I’ve pointed out about voting for LIST but not SNP and you call me a dimwit ..get a mirror
    Are you sick ?

  45. terence callachan says:

    Bob Mack….you said

    They are staying a reason why they will vote for another party, as I shall do on the list.

    My reply….EH ?

  46. kapelmeister says:

    If the SNP don’t come up with a proper indy plan then a vote for them in 2021 will be buying a pig in a woke.

  47. GeeH says:

    As long as we’re going to push the both votes SNP message in south of Scotland and Orkney and Shetland regions, I’m all for everyone backing a new indy list party.

    Of course, the SNP could still fck it all up with their gender reforms p*sh, once the tabloids and BBC start alerting the nation to the dangers.

  48. Dan says:


    Hmm, me just a solitary fool. Aye, maybe you’re right, but I’ll counter that with: I think political parties choosing to push policies the majority of the electorate don’t want and not focusing on the really fuckin big important issues at this critical point in time might be seen as the work of proper Grade A fools.

  49. defo says:

    “Don’t gamble a certain winner unless you are a fool”

    Unless you know it’s been knobbled Terry.
    The fix is in.
    Rhiannon Spear??
    Rather Burning Spear, you can’t beat a bit of dub.

  50. MaggieC says:

    Al-Stuart @ 5.34 pm

    Re Alex Salmond’s book . This was from Rev Stu the other day ,

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    8 August, 2020 at 2:10 am
    Alex Salmond is not writing a book. My source for that: Alex Salmond .

  51. twathater says:

    Obviously terrence you have been given access to the secret plan that is going to WIN us independence , if Queen Nicola trusts you terrence who am I to disagree

    So what you are saying is that ALL the previous mandates Nicola has been given has basically been a diversion to make bozo feel superior and complacent and do you know BY JOVE I think it has worked

    The one thing that concerns me with this dastardly plan is that now we have all these new genderwoowoo candidates putting themselves forward for selection and election how are all these stupid women voters going to be convinced of this plan

  52. john rose says:

    If this was to take off, the obvious response of the unionist parties would be to game the constituency vote. How many constituency seats would be vulnerable to only one unionist candidate?

    There are more constituency than list seats.

  53. terence callachan says:


    We are all in the same boat about how SNP will tackle continued S30 refusal
    It is preposterous to believe they will continually do nothing

    I want independence ASAP …I’m 65….I want to celebrate and enjoy the transformation of independent Scotland

    I do not accept the extreme view of some who say SNP are doing nothing for independence

    The way Nicola Sturgeon Scottish government have handled COVID 19 the biggest most difficult crisis in 75 years has been the best Scottish independence campaign ever

    BJ and Gove only cottoned onto this late on and that’s when we got the calls for Nicola Sturgeon to be barred from giving daily briefings

    We now have a large lead

    NS has said that once covid19 is under control she will shift her efforts to independence
    Brexit is looming

    It’s all about to kick off

    SNP are nothing if they drop Scottish independence they know that they are in it to the end
    Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon will in my opinion both campaign for Scottish independence next year straight after the SNP win a majority

  54. holymacmoses says:

    It’s called a fair AMS electoral system when you have at least three Unionist Parties and One Independence Party in Scotland

    It’s called ‘gaming the system’ if you have the same number of Independence Parties as Unionist Parties in Scotland.

    Name that Game:-)

    You’re doing amazing work Mr Wings – I’m hoping to win the lottery soon!

  55. Republicofscotland says:

    Yep, I’ve already decided I’m not giving the SNP my list vote, and others shouldn’t give them it either, lets stop British nationalists like the ones Stu mentioned from getting into Holyrood and doing their London masters bidding, Ruth Davidson is a prime example I think, of who we don’t want at Holyrood.

  56. LeggyPeggy says:

    terence Callaghan @ 6.18 pm
    You wrote

    “ Very hard …for some
    Not everyone takes an interest in how or why …

    A voting system should be simple and easily understood by ALL voters

    If it’s not …it’s an inadequate system “

    In that case it’s up to people who do understand the voting system to explain the voting system to family and friends who don’t understand the system .

  57. Beaker says:

    @Jim Arnott says:
    13 August, 2020 at 6:05 pm
    “Heads need to be knocked together and a single “Scottish Independence List Party” agreed. Candidate selection will be crucial focusing on candidates representing pensioners, farmers, legal, academics, business, etc, etc, etc all backed up by high profile well known supporters of Independence.”

    Good idea, but probably won’t work. I imagine that quite a few of the candidates are more interested in getting themselves a seat.

  58. Anna Nemus says:

    Kirstene Hair?

  59. Michael Laing says:

    It occurs to me that another important reason to vote for and hopefully elect independent pro-independence list parties (and perhaps a Wings party in particular) would be so that we will have MSPs in Holyrood who will take up the issue of the grossly unfair and unbalanced application of the law with regard to Alex Salmond and Craig Murray, and demand answers and action on this matter.

    I presume that if there were any MPs or MSPs who were willing to take action on this, they would already be doing so. If not, then we desperately need representatives who will do so.

  60. jfngw says:


    That may well be true, the other side is the less constituency seats the SNP take the less likely you are to have any independence list party MSP’s (unless you think they are going to take sizeable proportion of the list vote).

    I’m quite willing to split my vote but not if the SNP are not going to win the constituency seat.

  61. Bob Mack says:

    @Terry Callachan,

    Too many posts on WGD can make you a concrete thinker.

  62. holymacmoses says:

    Voters need to get their head round:

    Labour + Conservative + Liberal = Unionist


    SNP = Independence

    In 2021 Scotland should no longer be voting for a party but rather voting for Independence and that cannot happen when one side has three shots at taking the list vote and the other side has one shot. AMS is for balancing a party political system designed to keep Westminster in control via any one of the three Unionist Parties.
    The creation of at least one more Independence Party (I would prefer at least a couple of titles standing on an Independence ticket tbh) will tip the scales towards the fundamental political question.

  63. Heaver says:

    I will vote list for Free Scotland.

    +-&%# terencecallachan

  64. george wood says:

    There is one thing for certain that every single unionist politician and activist will be praying for a SNP1 SNP2 vote.

    They know that that gives them the best chance of stopping Indyref2 by getting a unionist majority.

    SNP1 Independence party 2 is their worst nightmare as it will guarantee a Independence majority and put the SNP leadership under enormous pressure to stop blocking the road to Independence.

    The SNP’s leaderships desire to wait for 60% in the polls will be knocked on the head.

  65. Intractable Potsherd says:

    If the aim is Scottish Independence then, based on all I have seen in the last six years, the SNP are not the right party to vote for. If the aim is legislation that reflecting the will of the electorate (unlike the GRA and Hate Crime crap), then the SNP are not the right party to vote for. If the aim is justice (see the treatment of Alex Salmond, Craig Murray, Joanna Cherry, etc) then the SNP is not the right party to vote for. Maybe it is time for a reduced majority so that the sitting tenants in Holyrood get the message that they no longer speak for the people they claim to represent. I’m perfectly happy to vote for a pro-independence party that stands in my wee corner of Fife. If that party has some names we all know, with long-standing and vocal pro-independence credentials, so much the better.

  66. bipod says:

    @Effijy in previous in thread.

    No my point wasn’t that we should stick with boris and the torys. My point was that given that the Scottish are a very risk averse people (which has been perfectly demonstrated by this endless lockdown and the broad support it has amongst the public, when there hasn’t been a single covid death in a month), the chances of them voting for independence during the worst recession ever is slim to none. Do you remember how worked up people got at the suggestion in 2014 that groceries might cost slightly more in an independent Scotland?

  67. Colin Alexander says:

    Anyone that thinks Holyrood colonial administrators will deliver independence is kidding themselves.

    I won’t be voting for any colonial administrator, I’d rather throw my constituency and List vote papers in the bin.

    The Blue or Red Tories will get in, instead of Sturgeon’s Tartan Tories? So what?

    Devolution is British London rule anyway.

  68. Iain Donald says:

    Sound analysis Rev but. I am afraid I will not be providing the SNP with any further votes. Enough is enough!

  69. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    2016 Holyrood Election.

    Central Scotland.
    SNP – 9 out of 9 constituencies won. Regional vote – 129,082. No list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 123,427. Number of list seats – 7.

    SNP – 9 out of 9 constituencies won. Regional vote – 111,101. No list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 112,082. Number of list seats – 7.

    Highlands and Islands.
    SNP – 6 out of 8 constituencies won. Regional vote – 81,600. 1 list seat.
    Other parties regional vote – 109,591. Number of list seats – 6.

    SNP – 6 out of 9 constituencies won. Regional vote – 118,546. No list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 177,514. Number of list seats – 7.

    Mid Scotland and Fife.
    SNP – 8 out of 9 constituencies won. Regional vote – 120,128. No list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 162,927. Number of list seats – 7.

    North East Scotland.
    SNP – 9 out of 10 constituencies won. Regional vote – 137,086. No list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 158,206. Number of list seats – 7.

    South Scotland.
    SNP – 4 out of 9 constituencies won. Regional vote – 120,217. 3 list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 183,373. Number of list seats – 4.

    West Scotland.
    SNP – 8 out of 10 constituencies won. Regional vote – 135,827. No list seats.
    Other parties regional vote – 161,290. Number of list seats – 7.

    Info from:-,_2016

    What would have happened in 2016, if a single (new) Pro-Indy party had stood for the regional seats only and been given 25% or 40% of the SNP regional vote?

    So far, I’ve done the hypotheses for North East Scotland, Mid Scotland and Fife, Central Scotland, Glasgow and Lothian. If you’re interested in how regional seats are allocated, go to the link below, then read down the page.

    I hope to get West Scotland, then the two regions where the SNP gained list seats, Highlands and Islands and South Scotland, done by the start of next week.

    I’d suggest that in the days before the next Holyrood election, if polling is showing the SNP with 50+% in the constituency vote, then it would be worth thinking about giving your regional vote to whatever SINGLE (new?) Pro-Indy party is standing in YOUR region.

    The ISP has said that it won’t stand in Highlands and Islands and South Scotland, I believe.

  70. Heaver says:

    No, opposite.

  71. Q says:

    I’m a bit dense but I’m usually fully on board about half way thru your articles. This is too short. No sarcasm, I don’t get your point…

  72. velofello says:

    The Greens have the ball at their feet.

    If they start talking now and declare in their manifesto a clear simple unequivicol commitment to independence then the List votes are there for the Greens to harvest.The SNP would need to play their part by “peace-pipe” smoking with the Greens during the election campaign.

    I agree in principle with the Green party’s policies over the environment and so I’d be willing to vote for them on the List, provided they declare a “no ifs, no buts”, commitment to independence.If your wish is for independence I see no point in voting SNP on the List. Mathematics don’t lie.

    My concerns over the SNP’s Gra, and Hate Crime, “ideas”. The woke group that seems to have arisen within the SNP, the recent NEC machinations cause me to hope for a means, a stick(?) to keep the SNP on the independence track.

    A strong Greens, or whatever list party with independence as their flag, will get my list vote. Is voting SNP on Constituency, and abstaining on the List vote another option?

  73. schrodingers cat says:


    only issue is the number of new indy list parties.

    it would be good to see these being thinned out a bit

  74. `Explain the voting system to family and friends`

    it would be like the mechanic at your garage explaning the inner workings of the four stoke combustion engine when all you want is to jump into a car turn the ignition and it starts,

    if they`re not interested you cannot make people interested

    the Scottish Gov have a `handy` explainer for how the voting system works, condensed down to seven pages,

    the system was made by a diverse committee of vested interests where everyone got a bit of what they wanted,

    how do you explain 1.2 million votes getting 7 seats and 900 thousand getting 48,

    i nearly passed my physics O level in 1989 (have emailed Mr Swinney about an upgrade) and it still nearly befuddles me.

  75. Contrary says:

    Nice bold graphics there, hopefully it will help clarify the situation for many more.

    I’m fine with as many other independence supporting parties standing wherever they can as there can be. Much debate seems to be centred around how careful we need to be voting tactically – are there really that many candidates that we’ll all be spoiled for choice? I have my doubts – it costs money to put up candidates and there is the 5% rule isn’t there, for getting your deposit back-? (Does that work the same on list seats? Maybe not). Anyway, I think we’ll all be lucky to even get one alternative choice for pro-Indy in most regions rather than flooded with them. If I need to vote tactically, I’ll look to see what’s the best choice at the time.

    More bold graphics: I encourage as many people as possible to take a look at this video – bold graphics and education! Yes, it’s on MMT – but this one is specifically describing how macroeconomics works in the uk context – what is money? And how does the magic money tree work? It’s good to get a broad understanding – it’s only a description of how things work right now – but it makes you think about money and taxes in a different way. It makes you realise that an independent Scotland issuing its own currency can have its own broad shoulders (I use irony there) – it has no debt, and would not have a problem paying it if it does decide to pay any, that a deficit is actually your savings and you don’t want a government paying it off (because it uses your savings and pensions to pay for it!). It will be worthwhile to understand as much as you can, it makes independence more than a nice to have, a better democracy, and our right to have, it makes independence a very likely success and a better future – there is nothing to fear in setting up a new nation and its good to be able to pass that on to others:

  76. Walter Jones says:

    The SNP should be fully behind this.

    After all, it would wipe out the Unionist opposition,,,so what is Sturgeon so afraid of???

    Is Sturgeon frightened she might be forced into actually delivering Scottish Independence???

  77. Liz g says:

    Colin Alexander @ 7.48
    Then why are ye here Colin ?

  78. LeggyPeggy says:

    Velofello @ 9.13 pm

    The Greens are worse than the Snp for being “ woke “ and this is an article from the Scotsman about a blog post that Patrick Harvie retweeted about Joan McAlpine where the blog post called Joan McAlpine a Wa*ker . I wouldn’t even post a link to the blog as on here but this an archived link to the article in the Scotsman .

    And this from Rev Stu himself over a year ago ,

  79. Walter Jones says:

    Site Polis Alert!!!

    Liz g

    He’s here to give his opinion, whether you like it or not.

    Famous15 will pile in in a minute,,,then the whole thread turns into a slagging match.

    Fuck Off Liz g,,,have you not got a half bottle of Lanarkshire champagne (Buckfast) to finish off?

  80. Mialuci says:

    I like permutations a lot, horses or football yes, politics no.
    I have a good chuckle about a lot of the clever dicks on here, but I just think of you as dicks, not a lot of cleverness going about here I am sorry to say
    And the long winded brigade I never read your comments, lets be honest about it, its allways the same old puerile pudder.
    I will state here once again, I only vote for the SNP, I have never played around with my vote, imagine voting for someone you would’nt even give the time of day to just to keep someone else out, as my old granny used to say, there are wiser folk locked up Scotland for ever

  81. brewsed says:

    There may be more than one list Scottish Independence Party. There is nothing to stop there being just one and, as we saw with (my socialism is better than your socialism) RISE, are we beginning to see the (my Scottish Independence is better than your Scottish Independence) equivalent? Other than the cost, there is nothing to stop one or more Monster Raving Loony List SIP candidates potentailly splitting the list vote.

    It is a risk, it is a gamble, which may backfire.

  82. Johnny says:

    That’s all very well Mialuci but some of us will be voting for a different party on the list because….we want an alternative choice on the list.

  83. defo says:

    The number of prospective list parties is practically irrelevant SC, as long as we cooperate on who stands where.
    Make the umbrella name simple, Alliance for Indy?, and there’s no need to fear factional friction from people who can make a common overriding offer to the electorate. Independence now. Independence first.
    Commonality on a few other specific issues shouldn’t be beyond us.

    This would help negate the problem that who exactly has talent, or at least sanity & competence, in the numbers required to cover the country.

    It might even sow the seeds for whatever blossoms as a representative, Independent constitutional parliament.

  84. Graf Midgehunter says:

    There’s no doubt about it, the alternative indy list party scenario is really putting the wind up Brit Nat ar*es.

    Terence C is on overtime doing his best to deflect to the SNP and push anything to avoid a vote for the new guys. 🙂

    The SNP has got the sh**s because it could be the beginning of a second and real indy party which could possibly topple them later from the top perch.

    But beware, the Brit Nats will already be preparing their spies/stooges, pretending to be indy followers looking to help the cause. So the vetting had better be good.

  85. Fireproofjim says:

    I will vote for a list inde party as long as there is only one and it is well advertised as “”inde only” – with no peripheral policies. It must also have well known and strong leaders.
    However I suggest that normal people, unlike us political junkies, will probably take no notice and will vote SNP twice or SNP and Green.

  86. Wee Chid says:

    Are they really predicting that Fluffy Jnr will get kicked out of his Dumfriesshire constituency seat? I’d be surprised – Pleasantly so, but surprised.

  87. robertknight says:

    George Wood @ 7:18

    “There is one thing for certain that every single unionist politician and activist will be praying for a SNP1 SNP2 vote.

    They know that that gives them the best chance of stopping Indyref2 by getting a unionist majority.”

    George, the Yoons don’t need MSPs in numbers to stop IndyRef2…

    They’ve got a Tory PM with a majority of 80 in Westminster to do that for them.

    So long as NS sticks to the single route to IndyRef2 via S30, any and every shade of UK PM can simply say now is not the time…

    Pre-Brexit = Now is not the time.

    Covid-19 = Now is not the time.

    Post-Brexit = Now is not the time.

    Recession = Now is not the time.

    Trade talks = Now is not the time.

    Senior Royal pops off = Now is not the time.

    UK General Election = Now is not the time.

    “R” in the month = Now is not the time.

    See a pattern forming here?

    And what of Plan B in the event of the above? Oh look, tumbleweed!

  88. Big Jock says:

    If the SNP had any sense. They would get together with the largest Indy party. They could enter into an unwritten agreement to prevent unionists getting seats.

    My worry is that the SNP seem to want to be the only show in town. Contrary to popular belief they often put party before country.

  89. Big Jock says:

    Robert Nicola actually has a clear strategy.

    It’s called ” waiting”. She is the master of distraction, while doing nothing.

  90. velofello says:

    4 stroke engine is not perhaps the best analogy Scot Finlayson. A better analogy is the 2 stroke engine – invented by a Scot – it simply, breathes In fuel, and breathes out the exhaust. And so in voting terms, vote Indy Yes means In, and so Out means Bye bye to unionist Wells, Fraser, etc etc.

    But, there’s always a but, the Holyrood D’hondt voting system has a kind of constituency catalytic convertor algorithm that filters out List Indy votes and gives Unionist votes a clear path through.

    Having fun, no criticism intended.

  91. Dan says:


    Here’s a simple hypothetical for you to ponder.
    Say there is a solid Pro-Indy individual who’d be well worthy of being in Holyrood. They’re currently in the SNP but because of their more dynamic stance on how Scotland could regain self governance status they may not make it through the selection process.
    Added to that there is the issue that unless they get to stand in a Constituency then there is next to hee haw chance of them getting elected as an SNP Regional List Candidate in this area.
    Would you consider voting for them with your second vote if they were either an independent candidate, or preferably within a Pro-Indy Party on the Regional List as regional votes could be pooled and potentially elect more than one of their Candidates?

    I don’t know if I fall into your category of being a dick, but the situation described above is being discussed offline in the hope of optimising the chances of getting them elected.

  92. Graf Midgehunter says:

    The D’Hondt system is quite a good system which allows smaller parties to gain seats which represent the percentage of votes that the party received. Every vote counts and nobody loses out.

    It’s used in many countries around the world including here in Germany. Coalitions are often the norm.

    Angie is the leader of a coalition government, would anyone here prefere Bojo’s bunch of FPTP clowns to having Angie..???

    In the UK you’re used to the FPTP which means all or nothing, 35% gets you into government and the other 65% can go and get f***ed.

    Scotland’s problem is that the conlabdems are in reality just one Britnat party split up into 3 factions and thus able to “game” the D’Hondt system.

    Get the new indy alternative up an’ running and get your own Angie. 🙂

  93. Fireproofjim says:

    The Telegraph reports that Boris Johnston is to plaster a Union flag sign on all infrastructure projects in Scotland wherever he can claim that the U.K. treasury funded the project. Not very many then.
    The Queensferry Crossing for example was funded entirely by the Scottish Government.
    Anyway I would suggest that certain artistic Scots might be tempted to purchase a can of Dulux finest for a little artistic impression on the sign. – McBanksy awaits.

  94. Cadogan Enright says:

    I remember making this argument in previous Scottish elections and Stu forcefully telling me I was talking rubbish.

    Then again, I am only a Chartered Accountant, elected politician and with 40 years experience in winning elections.

    However if a list party is to be set up it needs Alex to lead it. For all Stu’s strengths – being a politician is not one of them

  95. robertknight says:

    Fireproof Jim

    “Anyway I would suggest that certain artistic Scots might be tempted to purchase a can of Dulux finest for a little artistic impression on the sign.”

    Absolutely not!!!

    Better idea…

    Slap a cut-out of BawJaws’ gormless mug right in the middle of said flag…

    That’ll give everyone a nice warm feeling.

  96. shug says:

    My apologies in advance for the length of this post but please read on. I found myself sitting in the car waiting for my wife today and I tuned into the John Beattie show around 5.00pm. A strange article came on about children not being provided with water at school. I went back over the show tonight and here is my summary:

    The “us and them” campaign group has raised concerns that pupils have not been getting enough drinking water – they said they came home yesterday saying they could not get drinking water – we asked several councils about this east Renfrewshire, east Lothian and Falkirk council deny that children are not allowed drinking water. East Dumbarton council the deputy CE said as a precaution water fountains were not in use but all children can get access to water – we are working to a clear procedure and relevant hygiene controls to access water. Glasgow council says have asked parents to supply children with water but teachers will refill if necessary.
    Have you heard about this what’s happening in your area.
    Here is Jill Bissett us and them recaps on bring a bottle – no ability to refill – we have had calls from East Dunbartonshire, Clover Primary, Bishopbriggs academy, Milngavie primary, Westerton, also east Lothian, Musselburgh Haddington and north Berwick HS – they have all confirmed to us that their children were not given the refill availability so east Lothian and east Dunbartonshire councils don’t know what their talking about or are not being entirely honest – JB well they are not there to defends themselves.

    What is strange about this piece is:

    Who is the “Us and Them” group – using google I could only find daily mail reports to the group in Cambridge. I could not find any facebook group or website – are they real?

    Since the schools only opened yesterday, the BBC has a story about teachers not giving children water, tap water not good enough, “councils not knowing what they are doing or being dishonest!!”

    How does an unknown (in my world) group get prime time access to the BBC main evening programme to spout such rubbish.

    I am trying to understand how I am being manipulated here

  97. Saltire says:

    In my opinion, there is a real flaw in this analysis. It assumes that the SNP will win the huge number of constituencies suggested and won’t need the list route. Remember when Scottish (sic) Labour thought that way? They lost their better candidates and were left with the Richard Leonard formation dance troupe stepping on each others toes. They’ve never recovered from that.

    I just can’t see why a new list party would work, because the brand loyalty to the SNP is too strong and NS too popular. I believe only a really high profile name, like Margo MacDonald, is likely to do well. There are just under nine months until the election. Where is the structure, where are the policies and where is the credible evidence that enough votes would be garnered? Other than this forum no-one I know has ever mentioned voting for a new list party next year. And I do remember the poll.

    Unless that huge number of SNP constituency MSPs comes through, there will still be a reliance on the list (2007 anyone?) and even a minor split in votes could result in a reduction in pro indy MSPs and possibly a minority SNP government (or worse). That is the biggest risk to progress.

    To cap it all, this forum is full of people calling the SNP a rotten, corrupt, not for independence party that they won’t vote for, but then try to make the case for a new list party to bolster the pro indy numbers on top of the SNP.

    Without a majority SNP government independence gets stuck in the mud. Get that in place and I believe independence is unstoppable. But a disunited infighting mess will put voters off and give the Stephen Daisley’s in the media all the material they require to rattle out another 500 words of badly written drivel to publish or broadcast.

    I’ll be voting for the SNP in both constituency and list and I fully understand the mechanics of the D’Hondt system.

  98. Liz g says:

    Wee child @ 10.53
    As I understand it,and I’m only speaking about ISP here.
    They won’t be standing in constituencies where the Union vote is so strong the SNP pick up the list.
    They are an independence list party so it would be a better use of resources to target list seats where the the SNP are so strong the Unionist party’s would be likely to pickup the list seat

  99. @velofello,

    nae problem,

    the four-stroke engine cycle was patented in 1862,

    nearly 160 years and most folk wouldn`t have a clue what the four strokes are/mean,

    like the Holyrood voting system, most folk are not interested in how it works they just want to turn up to vote or turn the key to start the car and get on with whatever interests them like fitba and more fitba.

  100. Ayeright says:

    Wings has been overrun by SiU green ink brigade and their little helpers. A few stalwarts like Liz g trying to hold things together and getting dogs abuse in the process.

    Same has happened to other women like Cappela who was 100% behind the Rev in the GRA debate. Anyone expressing support for the SNP is hounded from the site. Wings is now a hindrance to Independence, there is no such thing as “free speech” on here if it’s in support of the SNP. They will be hounded and driven out.

    You need to get a grip Rev because this site no longer helps anyone covert to Independence. It does the opposite.

  101. robertknight says:


    “Without a majority SNP government independence gets stuck in the mud.”

    How’s that pro-Indy majority of SNP/SGP MSPs been working out for us lately?

  102. Dan says:

    @Cadogan Enright

    You will have noticed significant technological advances across society in your 40 years of electioneering experiences, and that needs to be considered in the potential viability of campaigning strategies.
    Nowadays there are influential Pro-Indy personalities and groups on social media with many if not tens of thousands of followers in most of the regions.
    Each of these entities could endorse a voting strategy to their many followers once we know where we are with Parties, Policies, and Candidates nearer election time.

    Obviously a (or several) big name(s) backing a Party may help nationally, but we have built significant local networking capabilities in recent years which could really come to the fore with the Regional Votes if there is the will. Plus local candidate reputation within a region is more nuanced than big name national branding that may have little to know alignment to a specific area.

  103. robertknight says:


    Oh do stop…

    You want an SNP love-in, you’re in the wrong place.

    You want to hear the concerns of other Indy supporters as to NS being wedded to the “please Sir, can we have another Section 30 Order” route, then welcome.

    You don’t need to agree, you just need to listen, contribute and discuss, without crying “Mummy, those nasty doubting Thomases are ruining my favourite website”.

    Personally, I may be many unpleasant and objectionable things, but a Yoon isn’t one of them.

  104. Saltire says:

    Robert Knight, how about the consistent majority for independence in the polls and the huge swell in popularity for the SNP SG?

    The majority of the electorate appears to think the SG and NS are doing well. That’s demonstrating that we can run our own affairs to the poeple that matter pretty well to me.

    Get the majority SNP government on an indref ticket, then demanding Section 30, going to court and many of the other options that have been discussed have the clear will of the Scottish people to back them up. A majority mandate of one vote over 50% for indyref2 is the key.

    All this infighting risks that. Look at the opposition benches and the idiot in Downing Street! This an open goal let’s not blow it.

  105. Rick H Johnston says:

    I agree that who tops the list of a party will be important to me on the list vote.
    We sadly no longer have anyone of the profile of Margo, but figures who regularly comment in the press and TV would have a good chance of replacing a Unionist in Holyrood.
    Would be collateral damage though if we lost one of the better Greens.

  106. Ayeright says:


    I can’t see where I called you a Yoon but I have no problem calling you a gullible arsehole that has fallen for the SNP BAD narrative by the majority now posting here.

    Do you actually believe that Independence without the SNP winning in 2021 is possible? Hahaha You must be joking right?

    I think YOU are just another fucking idiot falling for the shite posted here by those that DO NOT WANT INDEPENDENCE rather than a Yoon. If you ca’t see then then I can’t help you LOL.

    Call me a conspiracy theorist but I think that there are those that want to destroy this site because of it’s success in increasing support in the first referendum and the Wee Blue Book. They do not want a second WBB!

    They are winning judging the quality of the posts and their snidey comments.

  107. Effijy says:

    On the Worldmeters site they update all the global Covid Stats.
    The seem to have accepted England’s latest manipulation of the
    Figures and taken away 5,000 deaths?

    Can anyone then explain what caused their excess death numbers
    To go through the roof if it wasn’t the Covid Virus?

    Was it starvation with the Food Banks closed
    Depression from losing their jobs?
    The £157.50 charge our poor pensioners who fought in the world war now have to pay?
    Was it due to Universal Discredit?

    What killed off these thousands of citizens????

  108. Velofello says:

    @Scot Finlayson:fitba? Here I go again, A tale from my early teens – ” you’re playing left back today, No I’m not, yes you are. If playing football means playing left back, then I’m not playing football”.
    I knew what I wanted and what my terms were.I was prepared to walk away. I continued playing in the team, at inside forward.

    Maybe a lesson for the SNP. The U.K. stifles our ambitions, what we aspire to be, our values.

  109. Dogbiscuit says:

    A fine of up to 2000 pounds for not wearing a mask in England.Sturgeon will up the fine for Scotland . Seems awfully steep for a minor infringement of a rule you don’t have to follow.
    Is it starting to feel like a dictatorship yet? You SNP bastards Tory accomplices will not be forgotten.

  110. Dogbiscuit says:

    3200 I meant to say.

  111. robertknight says:


    FWIW, I put the 53% down to Boris and Brexit, not NS/SNP, who have put Indy on the back-burner since Daisy May said “now is not the time”.

    The 57% I put down to a softer approach from the MSM (to date) towards NS/SNP for doing the day job, albeit in the face of an opposition at HR who couldn’t find the cheeks of their own arse using both hands if you held a gun to their heads.

    As for the S30 route, other than a doubtful detour via a court case concerning matters constitutional, (which will wind up in the UKSC), NS has fixed the only route to IndyRef2 via 10 Downing Street – who could eventually grant a S30 Order but kill it’s passage through Westminster by use of a free vote at the 1st Reading in the Commons.

    There is no way past the democratic decision of the UK Parliament if that Parliament, (not the PM), says No S30.

    In that scenario, IndyRef2/Indy is dead unless HR can hold a consultative version of it without a S30, by which time WM could easily move the goalpost to thwart it given they’d already have done so at the Bill’s First Reading.

    It’s a niave and wrong headed approach down a constitutional cul-de-sac, which I refuse to believe the current leadership has not fully appreciated but nevertheless behaves like King Canute in the face of an incoming tide.

    And don’t get me started on the WOKE business, it’s past my bedtime.

  112. Ayeright says:


    “You SNP bastards Tory accomplices will not be forgotten.”


  113. Dogbiscuit says:

    A licker of arses.

  114. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright you got the wrong guy steamer.

  115. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Saltire at 11:27 pm.

    You typed,
    “Unless that huge number of SNP constituency MSPs comes through, there will still be a reliance on the list (2007 anyone?) and even a minor split in votes could result in a reduction in pro indy MSPs and possibly a minority SNP government (or worse). That is the biggest risk to progress.
    I’ll be voting for the SNP in both constituency and list and I fully understand the mechanics of the D’Hondt system.”

    I did type, at 7.53pm tonight,

    I’d suggest that in the days before the next Holyrood election, if polling is showing the SNP with 50+% in the constituency vote, then it would be worth thinking about giving your regional vote to whatever SINGLE (new?) Pro-Indy party is standing in YOUR region.

    The ISP has said that it won’t stand in Highlands and Islands and South Scotland, I believe.

    We don’t know what the polling will be saying in the days leading up to the next Holyrood election. So, to state categorically NOW, that you “fully understand the mechanics of the D’Hondt system” and will vote SNP/SNP, is, frankly, closing your brain to what can happen in the future.

  116. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright your First Minister is currently carrying out crimes against humanity.Any chance you could have a word with her tell her to wind her idiot neck in .She’ s sure to listen to you.

  117. Dogbiscuit says:

    I don’t appreciate First Ministers tyrannical regime.

  118. Ayeright says:

    Hey Dogbreath

    Fuck Off Unionist troll.

  119. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright a toilet calling somebody an ‘arsehole’ What a trip.

  120. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright. You scintillating bastard you .How you slay me.

  121. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright you’ve had more pricks than an Orange Order Parade.

  122. Dogbiscuit says:

    It’s funny how Ayeright pops up when ever SNP are under scrutiny here.

  123. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright’wings is now a hindrance to Independence’ ? A bit bold is it not? Robust debate a hindrance to Independence for a party with no plan no recent track record aside from press releases in the ‘National’ Who really runs that paper the same people who own the New York Times?

    It is I would say too late and can’t see so far down the road.
    Metaphorically speaking when you march an army into the field , prime them for action, then walk away and leave them then with no central command that army WILL fall apart.

  124. Dogbiscuit says:

    Platitudes and promises from Politicians are no fucking use.

  125. Dogbiscuit says:

    Well Ayeright can you answer for your leaders dereliction?

  126. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Dogbiscuit.

    Interesting input from you here but do you know the difference between a duck? Come to that, do you even know the difference between the other duck?

    You may frown upon my questions but they are on a par with around 95% of your input on WOS, over the past couple of months.

    I bid you “Good night, sleep tight”.

  127. mr thms says:

    Replacing the Regional List with a National List would give the SNP more seats

  128. Dogbiscuit says:

    At a time when the Independence movement needed a leader our leadership was cutting her dilettante dash across politics giving the old chat here giving it there .The London School of Economics lurves Mizzzz Sturgeon.
    She like many of her ministers can talk very well but some of you need to listen to her more closely.
    Look into Nicola Sturgeons eyes. She’s doing a dirty job and she knows it.

  129. Dogbiscuit says:

    Yes Brian very good Brian what a clever chap Brian.

  130. Dogbiscuit says:

    I have more weighty matters to ponder than horseshit from Teuchters .

  131. Ayeright says:

    Dogbreath you’re losing it 🙂

  132. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    So your knowledge is bereft of duck knowledge? How dare you come on WOS, displaying such inadequacy about duck matters and then spray your opinions about other contributors opinions?

    You, madam, are a cad.

  133. James Che. says:

    Interesting the for’s and against the snp, very interesting, sit back and observing is sometimes a very wise thing to do. Maybe stu, is trying to wheedle out the trolls and goons, I meant to say yoons.

  134. Beaker says:

    @Scot Finlayson says:
    13 August, 2020 at 9:37 pm
    “it would be like the mechanic at your garage explaining the inner workings of the four stoke combustion engine”

    Suck, squeeze, bang, blow – personally I prefer it in a different order 🙂

    I need humour. Broke a tooth this afternoon which has a huge filling in it and to call dentist tomorrow morning. They MIGHT be able to put a temporary filling to hold it together as they are still not allowed to carry out treatment. I can only live on soup and protein drinks for so long…

  135. Dogbiscuit says:

    The Hate Crime Bill is truly frightening proper Stalinism.Just about everything said on here will be made a retrospective ‘crime’ Being human is being criminalised

  136. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright ‘you’re losing it’ I hope you’re right.

  137. Ayeright says:


    That is an absolutely PATHETIC attack on the SNP hahaha.

    Is that really the best you’ve got? Man you guys are desperate. I smell shite.

  138. Dogbiscuit says:

    Thinking and feeling in Scotland is being criminalised.

  139. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright always with the jokes eh . You have no rational defence for Sturgeons power trip .You might not see her and Jusuf pissed on power but many others do. Our lives are being more restricted by unnecessary rules. The justice minister had a real hatred for white people it seems.He seems surprised there are so many white people in Scotland filling top positions of employment.
    I wonder what he thinks of Jews in the legal system.
    Sure he comes across as a terrible racist. Anyone who obsesses over skin colour is a racist.
    That pretty much sums up the woke STASI.

  140. Dogbiscuit says:

    Refute my accusations with an answer not an insult … you silly bugger.
    My corporal advised me to call you that.

  141. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright being a toilet you would smell shite.

  142. Ayeright says:

    Dogbreath you know your name right enough GIRFUY

  143. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright are you OK with the Hate Crime Bill the most draconian attack on free speech since 1933 ?
    An orchestrated attack on Alec Salmond the illiberal GRA Bill the ‘lockdown’ and its ever increasing Draconian rules . No movement on Independence the Hate Crime Bill which will probably see public works of Art being censored for causing ‘offence’ Fuck the justice minister and his effeminate feelings.

  144. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright you have nothing to say. To be a shill for fascism makes you and all the other shills Kapos.

  145. Dogbiscuit says:

    Ayeright the only whore who does it for love .How sweet and quaint. You’re so old fashioned.

  146. Alan D says:

    Fair point. But we can already see approximately 10% of the constituency vote leaving the SNP and choosing another party on the list.

    “And thinking about the regional or party vote for the Scottish Parliament, which party list would you vote for?
    SNP 47%
    Conservative 21%
    Labour 14%
    Lib Dem 6%
    Green 6%
    SSP 3%
    Brexit Party 1%
    Some other party 1%”

    The Greens have the majority of that and for it, they’re projected to get three seats, a loss of… three.

    If the SNP got 57% on both votes(and the unionist lot are unchanged), they’re projected to win 81 seats instead of 70.

    I agree that Scotland needs new parties for the near future, to step up when the London-led branch offices finally get cut off and the SNP becomes simply “the National Party”.

    But the problem with launching them as Indy-focused parties is that they will end up with broad membership coalitions who don’t really agree on much else – they may not even agree on which SNP policies to oppose. They’d be actually more likely to disappear after independence than the unionist leftovers are.

    That means “people like Annie Wells, Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie, Jamie Greene, James Kelly, Alex Cole-Hamilton and Kirstene Hair” would continue to form the Scottish opposition after independence. Even the most optimistic projection doesn’t get rid of them all and the lack of credible, established alternatives would give these leftovers a small foothold to re-establish themselves.

  147. Dogbiscuit says:

    GIRFUY Ooooooh.

  148. Ayeright says:

    I rest my case.

  149. Graeme McAllan says:

    We’re just like patient Lemmings, except old 60yr goats like me are down to our last few laps around the Sun 😉

  150. twathater says:

    I remember a discussion on this site a while ago when the GRA was first pushed, many SNP supporters including Capella,Petra and legerwood who are all females indicated that they would all wait and see what would happen, they all felt that the legislation would be put off until independence and having visited WGD site recently it appears Petra and legerwood still feel the same

    Then we had the addition of the HCB which will not only protect GRA genderwoowoos but it will criminalise ANYONE who DARES speak out against it with the possibility of a 7 year prison sentence

    At the time many people who were vehemently against the GRA bill including myself were called trolls, unionists or SNP haters , ditto with the HCB

    Can I genuinely ask the NS and SNP sycophants and apologists is this the kind of SCOTLAND you want to live in and want to bring up your kids and grandkids in , where a government can introduce hated and reviled policies that will directly impact you and your loved ones detrimentally and totally ignore the electorates opposition to these policies.

    If that is your wish, we already have that with a WM govt so we don’t need independence

    As has been pointed out MANY times if NS were to ditch these policies and focus on independence there would be no need for these other parties and voters would feel relatively comfortable in voting for the SNP
    So the decision is entirely down to NS

  151. Mialuci says:

    Consider giving my vote to a unionist, you must be joking, I would rather be hung drawn and Quartered, to me its cheating the voters anyway.
    If everyone votes for the party they believe in we get true and fair elections, anything else is just making a mockery of the democratic process
    I would rather not vote at all than stoop to that kind of thinking, its bad karma and no good can come of it, mark my words, cheats never win, cause they think they can fool all the people all the time, and then they do it once to often, one party to vote for all the time, for me all my votes will allways go to the SNP, whether the leader is Nicola Sturgeon, or the man in the moon, the journey is allways worth the discomfort if the destination is reached

  152. Mialuci says:

    Dan says

    Dan you can do as you like, but i never change, I am like our great hero Wallace, I am all in risk everything, the funny thing is Wallace was betrayed by his own kind, and I mean his countrymen, those kind of people are still around, this site is full of them
    Just go and listen to that pathetic scottish irishman, palestinian and great sucker upper, to the arabs George Galloway
    This excuse for a scotsman will be here again with his lies to try to stop Independence, Tony Blair had him thrown out of the labour party, for years he has made an arse of himself in all kind of ways, but if there’s a buck to be had you can rely on good old george to be in the mix to try and get his hands on it

  153. Michael Laing says:

    Regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong, the infantile bitching and trading of insults in the above posts from @Dogbiscuit and @Ayeright serves no purpose and is extremely tiresome, and I’m sure it must be thoroughly off-putting to those who wish to read and make genuine contributions to this site. It makes independence-supporters look like idiots. I wish you would give it a rest.

  154. Michael Laing says:

    @Mialuci: “for me all my votes will allways go to the SNP, whether the leader is Nicola Sturgeon, or the man in the moon”; “Dan you can do as you like, but i never change”.

    Only somebody who is incapable of thinking would unquestioningly give their vote to a particular party regardless of all the evidence that it has no intention of doing what it was elected to do, and regardless of the fact that giving both votes to that party is likely to be counter-productive with regard to securing and increasing pro-independence representation. If you honestly think Nicola Sturgeon is going to bring about Scotland’s independence or that there is a genuine reason not to support pro-independence list parties, perhaps you could explain your reasoning?

  155. Mialuci says:

    An elderly lady goes into the butchers, she is bending down looking into the display counter when the butcher comes out of the walk in freezer, he goes up to his little electric fire and stands there with his back to the fire
    Is that yer ayrshire bacon she shouts out, no missus he says am jist heating ma hawns up

  156. Contrary says:

    Twathater @ 3.19am

    I don’t normally comment on specific people, particularly when they aren’t here (very impolite to talk about someone behind their backs!), and there has obviously been a lot of divisions formed without me noticing – and the polarisation on views has become quite extreme,,, or rather, the camp belonging to the ‘SNP is always right and can do no wrong’ have somehow come to believe their view is the only one anyone should have and no one else should have a different view. No debate. Very unpleasant, because I do like to have my own opinion and to have the opportunity to express it on occasion.

    Anyway – at the start of the year I was exploring ideas for bypassing the SNP or forcing them into acting to move forward with independence, and felt that was a reasonable discussion to have, and posted a comment and link for something like the covenant or the Forward as One case to drum up support on WGD site, and woah, I was basically attacked for even hinting that the SNP were doing nothing, bit of a shock. After a long conversation with Petra, she was reasonable and we had a good chat in the end though we had different views – and she also doesn’t go trolling elsewhere, so I think she’s fine but under poor influences. Legerwood is a fish wife that needs to get out of people’s faces.

    My personal view is that it is those people that refuse to even contemplate the SNP might have got something wrong are enabling the wrongness in the SNP – and it has gone on so long – I mean, why should the SNP change anything while they get unquestioning adulation? – that the party is now offensive to me. Anyone that tells me I am not allowed to have my own opinion is offensive to me.

    We all have our own ideas on best strategies and those should be discussed frankly and honestly – there is no point in keeping anything secret, the security services have full and legal access to all your data and communications, so ideas might as well be published so we all can hear them.

  157. Mialuci says:

    Michael Laing says

    Michael its taken me 50 years of voting SNP to get to where we are now, all those years picking away at the labour vote, do you seriously believe there is another party able to get us our Independence, If there is such a party please reveal its name here and know, and as for all your evidence about Nicola Sturgeon, I have no idea what the hell that’s supposed to mean, do you mean she is some sort of crook, maybe someone like Jeffrey Archer, you remember our Jeffrey eventually got 4 years for perjury, and btw, still sits in the house of lords to this day.
    And as for being incapable of thinking, how many businesses have you started up in your lifetime, I am in my 7th decade and I am starting another online business as I write this, never point a finger unless you know the person you are pointing the finger at

    Anyway all the best to you in the future

  158. stewart says:

    In 2016, the total “third pro-independence party” vote was just over 25,000, or about 0.6% of voters. Neither came close to winning a seat. Why would any pro-independence supporter think that voting for one of the latest versions would lead to a better outcome?
    On-line, supporters of ISP and Alliance are already starting to have a go at each other. Is Wings suggesting that the independence movement bases its future strategy in increasing its vote by a factor of 20?
    The SNP alone will win an outright majority based on current opinion polls. If, as many commenting on this thread are trying to persuade us, the SNP is not serious about independence then there is nothing any “third-party alliance” is going to do about it.
    The comment that such an alliance will have to “…. hold an SNP government to account and pressure them to pursue independence meaningfully…” is ridiculous and a de-facto admission of defeat.
    Those who believe that the bulk of the SNP, including Nicola Sturgeon, is still committed to Scottish independence need to double down on the message “both votes SNP” instead of pursuing this daft new party fantasy and the statistical nonsense that tries to rationalise it.

  159. @Velofello,

    WTF is an `inside forward` and what does it do.

  160. Tatu3 says:

    Said by The Rev himself back in August 2015

    “It’s not this site’s business to tell anyone how to vote. What these numbers strongly suggest, though, is that tactical voting – of any sort and for anyone’s benefit – in an AMS election is a mug’s game. You should vote for the party or parties that you most want to see form the government, rather than trying to second-guess the system. Because if you try, chances are it’ll make a chump out of you.”

  161. Intractable Potsherd says:

    stewart says:
    14 August, 2020 at 7:55 am

    “Those who believe that the bulk of the SNP, including Nicola Sturgeon, is still committed to Scottish independence… ”

    That’s fine, but where is the evidence of this commitment? On what do these people base their opinion? I’m not being snarky – I genuinely want to know if I’m missing something important.

  162. Big Jock says:

    I think people completely miss the point on this list vote thing.

    It’s not to damage the SNP, it’s to damage the unionists. The SNP are so far ahead on the first vote, that the system is wired against them in the list vote. This is the trap set by the unionists when setting up the parliament.

    We are trying to break their trap , and destroy unionism here. We are not trying to take seats off the SNP. The SNP at best can pick up 4 list seats on 47% of the list vote. Meanwhile the Tories can pick up 20 for just turning up. How is that fair or just. How is it clever or intelligent?

    We need to unite behind one pro-indy list party on the list seats the SNP can’t win. That’s why I keep saying the SNP should be involved in this. Otherwise we are giving the Tory seat warmers another free meal ticket for failure.

    Something has to give. We can’t keep letting these feckers in. They don’t even believe that Scotland is a nation. Yet we allow them to sit in our parliament. The Tories might as well call themselves the UKIP of Scotland. Their ultimate aim is to try and destroy our parliament.

    Worse than that the Scottish people didn’t elect them, the system did. We need to destroy the system.

  163. Big Jock says:

    I would also add.

    Where the SNP are dishonest is regarding the second vote. They know fine well it’s wasted. Yet they tell us SNP 1 and 2. Fair enough that’s politics and all parties do this. However the SNP are not a normal party. They are the party of independence and their end game is to defeat unionism in Scotland.

    You don’t in by guarding the front door, and then letting your enemy sneak in the back door. Unionists are the enemies of Scotland. They do not believe in the sovereignty of the nation they live in. They must be removed from our parliament.

  164. Wee Chid says:

    Liz g says:
    13 August, 2020 at 11:28 pm

    “Wee child @ 10.53
    As I understand it,and I’m only speaking about ISP here.
    They won’t be standing in constituencies where the Union vote is so strong the SNP pick up the list.
    They are an independence list party so it would be a better use of resources to target list seats where the the SNP are so strong the Unionist party’s would be likely to pickup the list seat”

    I don’t understand your point. I was just remarking that I would be surprised if, as the graphic suggests, that Oliver Mundell will lose his constituency seat. He has a following of a particular kind of person that is in abundance in this area. The graphic suggests that another pro indy party should stand for the list.

  165. Tartanpigsy says:

    Two things, the SNP constituency vote needs to stay at or close to where it is now.
    The list party needs a strong figurehead and be under the Alliance for Independence banner.
    Then this will work.

    Step forward major figurehead… We know who you are

  166. Walter Jones says:

    Big Jock 8.12am

    Excellent post.

    I have been trying to make similar points.

    What are the SNP so afraid of?

    I think Sturgeon is actually afraid she will be forced to push for Independence.

    This is why Sturgeon should be replaced as soon as possible.

  167. Big Jock says:

    Tartan – Yes correct.

    It also needs to be one pro-indy party. If it ends up with 3 wee indy parties all competing against each other. Then we might as well forget it!

    They have to get the party and the strategy correct. So all other indy parties must stand aside and unite behind one party on the list vote. Otherwise it causes voter confusion, apathy and ultimately failure.

  168. Breeks says:

    stewart says:
    14 August, 2020 at 7:55 am
    In 2016, the total “third pro-independence party” vote was just over 25,000, or about 0.6% of voters. Neither came close to winning a seat. Why would any pro-independence supporter think that voting for one of the latest versions would lead to a better outcome?

    Basically anger and disillusion at the SNP’s inaction these past five years has given many people a burning desire to give the SNP a royal kick up the arse.

    If that’s not explicit enough for you, just Google Nicola Sturgeon’s capitulation speech on Brexit Day, 31st January. That was a Damascene moment for great many people who expected the SNP to defend Scotland’s interests.

    The SNP alone will win an outright majority based on current opinion polls….

    I’ll fire your own question straight back at you. The SNP had mandates, and majorities aplenty both at Holyrood and Westminster in 2016 and did absolutely NOTHING with them. Now they’re back cap in hand, taking all the credit for a rise in support for Independence for which we have Boris Johnson to thank. What will they do with this mandate? Same old, same old? Or will they actually use a mandate at the 6th time of asking?

    I’ll vote for whichever Party I consider most likely to advance the cause of Scottish Independence. That will ‘probably’ be the SNP, but right now it’s an acutely marginal call whether I vote at all, given that I flatly don’t believe the SNP’s Pro Independence rhetoric. They’ve lied too often, and grown casual in doing it.

    Actions speak louder than words, and my god, hasn’t there been a mighty silence these past five years while Scotland has been humiliated, stripped of it’s European citizenship and subjugated by the colonial initiative of a foreign Nation, while the SNP government rolled over and let them do it.

    There no reason whatsoever why Scotland could not have defended it’s Constitutional Sovereignty and democratic mandate to oppose Brexit by standing firm on the legal principle of the situation, just as Northern Ireland held the UK’s Brexit hostage to legal principles enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

    The Good Friday Agreement was Treaty in International Law, and so is the 1707 Treaty of Union. So where was Scotland’s Backstop? Scotland’s interests sold down the river by the constitutional ineptitude of the Scottish Government who treat the colonial Scotland Act as if it was the Constitution of the Scottish Nation.

    If the SNP actually do want my vote, they have from now until December to prove to me they are NOT puppets and flunkies of the British Establishment who see it as their mission to subvert Scotland’s interests and supplant Scotland’s sovereign Constitution with Holyrood’s colonial leash and collar.

    Frankly, it’s looking grim, because it’s already mid August, the SNP aren’t listening and still present the colonial Scotland Act as if it was the gospel, and they’re doing sweet fk all to address my long-standing concerns or defend Scotland’s interests from imminent catastrophe. No change there…

    Frankly, the SNP has got a damned cheek to accuse me of putting Scottish Independence at risk. I care about Scotland. They just care about themselves and re-election.

  169. In October, the EU 27 will meet, there will be no proposals from the Brits, therefore and No Deal will unfold in January 2021.
    There will be no SGE in May.

    Yet on here, the Peoples Jordanian Liberation Front is still debating ‘What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us’.
    It is time to get real WoS.
    There will be no Third Party. There will be no May SGE. There will be no Scotland, if we let England drag us out of Europe.
    And no amount of pie charts and bar charts is going to change that.
    WE are on the brink of being destroyed as a country in October by a Right Wing Fascist Oligarchy in London.
    Fucking wise up and get back in the saddle.

  170. Gullane No 4 says:

    We already have a second independence vote with the Green Party.
    They have always had my second vote.
    Why are we reinventing the wheel.

  171. Bob Mack says:

    Please try and understand. We have to maximise the Indy vote at Holyrood as soon as possible. We know from polling that the SNP will do wel! In Constituency votes, but we also know from experience they will pick up very few list seats.

    We have to change that because Boris is on the verge of taking over a number of devolved issues to sort out his Brexit promises.

    We have to maximise as far as possible the opposition to this at Holyrood. We can if canny by challenging list party’s carefully, give Indy party’s of any hue a clear majority.
    Forget the “I only vote SNP” mantra.

    Remember instead you are voting to increase the push for Indepdndence and more importantly to increase Indy representation at Holyrood.

    Lastly, I hope we actually do get the chance to do the above, because it may well turn out to be too little too late.

  172. Dan says:

    Mialuci says: at 4:35 am

    I am like our great hero Wallace…

    Aye, but unfortunately you’re coming across as the Wallace that needs the assistance of Gromit…

  173. Ottomanboi says:

    Why we need another nationalist party.
    The mathematics of the Jefferson or d’Hondt formula was designed to encourage coalition. In our case a coalition of two nationalist parties perhaps?

  174. Donald R says:

    Where is the chart that compares the percentage of constituency votes with the percentage of constituencies won? Why did you miss that one out? Because it balances the disparity in the list votes.

  175. Ottomanboi says:

    Jack collatin 08:37
    England has already dragged us ‘out of Europe’. The FM vowed she would not allow that. Words, words. A nationalist alternative to the SNP, what’s so shocking about that?
    Gullane No4 08:40
    Fine if your alternative nat party is a collection of identitarian fruitcakes

  176. Big Jock says:

    Personally I don’t think having 15 pro indy seats on the list will make a blind bit of difference to Nicola’s strategy. Because ultimately I expect them to win an outright majority on the first vote.

    So the SNP machine will keep on marching to it’s on drum beat. That problem is another matter to be addressed by the party members.

    However the bonus for me is getting rid of people like Murdo and Tomkins. The more independent Holyrood is the more chance we have of moving to independence.

    Nicola as leader of the SNP is something I want to change. I believe she is a gradualist operating in an emergency situation. Either she doesn’t appreciate the danger , or she has already capitulated in her head.

    Whatever is going on she needs to go , or we will get another 5 years of her begging Westminster for scraps. This begging bowl mentality needs to stop. It makes us look weak and our enemy can just keep saying no.

    December this year is as much time as the SNP have to prove they can and will do something. If Brexit goes ahead with the power grab. Then they will not have seen rage anything like it from the Yes side.

    Nicola is on notice, step up or step down.

  177. Mialuci says:

    Dan says

    And you come across as Desperate Dan, desperately looking for answers that alas are never going to come out of your head, try the yellow pages lol

  178. Mialuci says:

    What would you have us vote for the scottish unionist parties, cause the green do ok without the SNP vote, so come on Dick enlighten us all with your mantras

  179. susan says:

    People suggesting voting Green on the list just don’t seem to understand other people’s concerns. If the SNP are pushing gender ideology which we reject, why would we double down and vote Green for more of the same. On these policies alone I cannot vote Green and am considering spoiling the constituency vote for the same reason.

  180. defo says:

    Get a grip Jack.
    When’s kristallnaght?
    End of October?

    Maybe the migrants could all bump up to make room for Dunkirk 2.

  181. Tannadice Boy says:

    Susan Says,

    Well said. Call me old fashioned but my vote goes to a party with policies I can support. Hate crime, GRA no thanks. Hence blank constituency vote for me at the moment and a new Indy party vote for the list vote. To quote that great Glasgwegian philsopher Billy Connolly, “Scotland will get the Government it deserves”

  182. Black Joan says:

    Well said Breeks @8.33am (and on many other occasions) and thank you.

    I got abuse from Yes Dumfries yesterday for questioning SNP apparent complacency re Brexit, and then silence from them when I pointed out the obvious.

    Some Yessers seem to have no grasp of the damage that failure to follow up on the promise that Scotland would not be dragged out of the EU has done. Presumably because they are unwilling to listen.

    Yes, scrapping in public among indy supporters is potentially harmful and undignified, but it’s beginning to look as if the present Scottish government is going to accept its own complete subjugation just as readily as it has accepted the end to our EU citizenship.

    That is just not good enough from a party which is supposed to work for independence, which has received donations of nearly half a million for a “ring-fenced” new referendum and yet has helped to waste that much and more (not to mention much energy) on an astonishing and inept attempt to demonise a former leader.

  183. schrodingers cat says:

    pursuing this daft new party fantasy and the statistical nonsense that tries to rationalise it.

    in 2016, with 46.5% of the constituency vote, the snp with 850k list votes won one snp list msp in 7 of the 8 regions.

    fact. look it up.

    presently the snp are on 57% support in the polls!

  184. Almond Chutney says:

    I always thought perhaps Scotland was asking for TOO much TOO soon. With the inability to leave as a fully fledged independent nation there is a point to consider in devolution, which has since led the way to enhance Scotland’s position.

    What if Scotland first opted for a different relationship with rUK. Rather than a clean break, an economic union rather than political would mean a very different relationship than we have today.

    Proposals of such in the proposed CANZUK for example, where economic, ethical and military interests are aligned by said countries are still left to their own affairs.

    I think that Scotland should be politically separate from England, but I don’t think in hell it should rejoin the EU.

    Just an idea so no need to berate me aggressively.

  185. Big Jock says:

    Jack – Douglas Ross was brought in by Boris to fight the Scottish election.

    There will be a parliament and an election in May. However where you are partially correct is that the power grab will have happened by January 2021.

    So in effect Holyrood will have been partially neutered. The new British HQ in Edinburgh and the civil servants are there to administer the new powers stolen from Scotland via the EU.

    That is what this new building is all about. It’s a little experiment in power grabbing. If it all goes ahead without a ripple from the SNP or Holyrood. Then they will proceed to stage 2. That will be the process of removing more powers , drip by drip.

    Someone posted a comment about the new Scottish Office. Saying it was about more devolution. Again partially correct but for the opposite reason. It is about taking devolution from Holyrood back into the Scottsih Office, along with the stolen powers from the EU.

    What is happening is a reversal of the devolution process. The Tories are trying to rewind the clock to when Ian Laing was in charge of the Scottish Office and there was no Holyrood.

    It’s a process by stealth.

    Surely to God the SNP can see this!

  186. Effijy says:

    Yes Ian Blackford has been caught out with an empty bluff
    On his threat to stop Scotland from being dragged out of the EU.

    Nicola also said we would have a vote this year, which I appreciated
    Has been stymied by Covid 19, but surely she has to nominate a
    General timescale rather than we may have Covid for 10 years so we
    Need to wait.

    We can deal with Covid better in an independent country.

    Westminster is working on Covid, Brexit, Billions of pounds worth of
    Non disclosure contracts for its supporters and planning to take Holyrood’s
    Powers away.

    Perhaps Holyrood could work on Covid and One more thing- Independence Ref 2.

  187. ottomaboi at 08.59, and defo at 09.02 contributions.. I rest my case.
    Time you cleaned out the cellar, Stu.
    ‘Dunkirk’; ‘migrants’ We are already out of the EU?

  188. Oneliner says:

    So, as the auld yins die off and the youngsters get the vote, surprise, surprise, the % of the population wanting Independence increases. It’s hard to see how anything other than a waiting game would have convinced the post-colonial sentimentalists. (Although consistent under-performance by the Tories is helping)

    It’s difficult for a guy who’s done his national service to accept that his time was wasted and he did nothing at all for Scotland. Thankfully, it’s difficult for the young Scottish voter to accept that he/she should vote for a party based in London, the capital city of another country.

    Meanwhile the baying of the linguistically challenged from the sidelines becomes increasingly shrill, whether legitimate or prompted. (This phenomenon seems to be directly proportional to Sturgeon’s rise in popularity).

    Nicola Sturgeon is both a consummate performer and a control freak. Her revocation of the SQA results was a shrewd political move which, I would hazard, brought lots of students on board. Her apparent closing down of Party democracy; her promotion of average-talent females over grey men and her Brexitfade are all significant concerns.

    Because of her long-sightedness and not because of her micromanagement. But, most of all, because they are not Tory/Labour/Liberal, I shall vote SNP at the next election – thereafter, I expect movement on Indyref2 to be both tangible and timeous.

    My second vote? Come on Dave Thompson, get your act together.

  189. Big Jock says:

    I meant to add.

    The fact that they spent all the money on the new building. Means that they know there will be no legal resistance or otherwise to the power grab. It’s a done deal now!

  190. Big Jock says:

    The interesting thing about Catalonia which the Tories will have noted. Is that brute force worked. They went in and busted the parliament and the citizens.

    Now very little is heard from Catalonia in terms of resistance. Beware, the Tories are not beyond this strategy. The British have a habit of crushing rebellions in colonies , before the colony gets freed.

    It just depends on how we the Scottish citizens react to our parliament and democracy being ignored.

  191. Effijy says:

    Rev, I send links and WhatsApps over daily to some unionist
    Contacts that I have and it’s a battle as they refuse to engage
    Their brain at any point.

    They wave their wee butchers apron and sign sectarian songs till I go away.

    One tackled me on the Exam grades here being a disgrace, but at least they
    Listened here and resolved the matter.
    He got everything back yesterday as England’s Exam farce developed.

    Should we be looking for the new Wings Book as an ideal Xmas gift for the
    Hard of Learning Unionists.

    Brexit must surly be the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    We have many new gems to report such as Ian Duncan Smith’s think
    Tank putting forward a need for a retirement age of 75.

    The men in areas such as Shettleston don’t live that long so some sort
    Of Bank of the Demised will need to be arranged so they can take Westminster’s
    Debt with them.

    Can’t see any Tories making it beyond the Pearly Gates as they would start stripping God
    Of his powers and open an alternative branch next door.

    Where Boris and his corrupt colleagues go after death will negate any need for an overcoat!

  192. Ross says:

    If an ISP want my list vote they need to have a credible plan B.

    Keep complaining the SNP don’t have one but don’t explain theirs.

    Is it not quite obvious that the plan B is expressed at a specific time shortly after the next election if plan A is rejected? If the snp/indy parties get a majority of seats and votes then the rejection allows plan B to be put forward with more weight.

    Not enough people support the snp doing an indy vote now to carry a wildcat vote and playing the hand now just gives time to rubbish it before a potentially voter majority election next year.

  193. Ross says:

    My their paragraph above is in relation to the snp . The serious party that has to make this work – not the pressure group

  194. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Big Jock at 9:00 am.

    You typed,
    “However the bonus for me is getting rid of people like Murdo and Tomkins.”

    Unless Murdo stands down, he will still be first on the tory list for Mid Scotland and Fife. Even if 80-100% of the SNP regional vote shifted to a Pro-Indy party, there would still be enough unionist (blue, red and orange) votes to ensure that some unionists would be elected.

    I repeat what I posted around three weeks ago…
    The latest Pro-Indy party is talking about winning 24 regional seats. Assuming they didn’t stand in the two regions where the SNP have their four regional MSPs, that leaves six regions for 24 seats or 4 per region.
    What percentage shift of SNP to Pro-Indy would be needed to win 4 seats? What would have happened at 100% shift in Central Scotland in 2016?

    Pro-Indy, with a total of 129,082, take the first regional seat.
    Labour, with a total of 67,103, take the second regional seat.
    Pro-Indy, with a total of 64,541, take the third regional seat.
    Tories, with a total of 43,602, take the fourth regional seat.
    Pro-Indy, with a total of 43,027, take the fifth regional seat.
    Labour, with a total of 33,552, take the sixth regional seat.
    The seventh (and last) regional seat goes to Pro-Indy with their 32,271.

    You can see the full post, giving examples for 100%, 90%, 80% and 70%, for Central Scotland in 2016, at this link:-

    I would suggest that even at 80+% of the SNP vote shifting to Pro-Indy, whoever is top of their unionist party’s list, will get a seat.

  195. Stephen says:

    Is there a second independence party that is in a really strong position to take about 6 per cent of the list vote? If there is tell me about it and I will consider voting for it. If not I am not jeopardising an SNP majority. And those who are unwilling to hold their nose and focus on the central aim of independence at this crucial time make me despair. We learned a lot from the last referendum and in particular the level of outright opposition we face from not just the expected sources but also from the BBC. We now appear to face a third source of opposition from within the independence movement. Get out of this echo chamber. Look at the current position based on consistent polling results. If SNP are getting it so dramatically and badly wrong on so many fronts why are we getting these polling figures? Cognitive dissonance really seems rampant among some on this website.

  196. iain mhor says:

    @Big Jock 9:25am

    Ian Lang Jeezus – I did not need to read that name this morning – any morning. For those who remember those decades, it makes the hairs stand up – I can only echo Kurtz ‘The horror! The horror!’

    Which is why, for all the grim crap coming out the pipes at the moment, I said before – it has a shitload to pour before it remotely plumbs the depths of those dark days.

  197. ahundredthidiot says:

    Everyone knows the type. The bus tour fella who wont shut up. When they all get off the bus to walk around the monument, everyone from the bus is giving him a wide berth.

    He needs new ears, so there he goes interrupting me in my moment of remembrance by leaning over my shoulder with his stupid face mask on to tell me they were all volunteers, no one made them join.

    I’m not one to argue that point (time and a place, however) and before he even receives an answer is on to his next point about Nicola Sturgeon holding an independence referendum for Scotland in 2021 (he has one of those annoying Kent accents) – my riposte – ‘there wont be a referendum next year, Nicola Sturgeon is the one of the best Unionists the UK has’.

    That shut him up.

  198. Kev says:

    Polls predict an SNP majority. I’m not sure why I need be concerned about the list vote.

  199. mialuci says:

    You must have noticed, c’mon you must have, when people like me speak to people we allways say sir, or call them by their first name, never just their surnames
    Its called showing respect to the person, now you will have noticed that the english unionists call Nicola Sturgeon, just Sturgeon, or wee Jimmy Krankie, when I ask who is wee Jimmy Krankie not one of them ever replies because they know it.s disrespectful no matter who she is
    Look at quite a few of the post here and you will see the disrespect for our First Minister as voted for by the people, they call her Sturgeon, now is that not a give away where these people’s loyalties really lie, yes language can expose a lot of things if you look closely enough

  200. defo says:

    Do pay attention Jack old bean.
    There’s thousands of UK holidaymakers/carriers clamering to get on trains, planes & ferries that are already full. Today.
    Perception eh!
    Sarcastic banter, or nazi propaganda?
    I leave the reader to decide where you’re coming from.

  201. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Polls predict an SNP majority. I’m not sure why I need be concerned about the list vote.”

    If what you care about is the SNP being in power, rather than achieving independence, then you don’t.

  202. mialuci says:

    God Almighty give me strength to endure statistics and the people who post them here, Just kidding I never read those posts anyway, If I want to read a load of piffle, I just have to reread some of the stuff I post lol

  203. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ” If not I am not jeopardising an SNP majority. And those who are unwilling to hold their nose and focus on the central aim of independence at this crucial time make me despair.”

    So, yourself, then?

  204. Robert Graham says:

    o/t no apologies

    Nicola is playing a blinder so all you bleedn moaners chuck it

    Want her to go for Indy ref 2

    Stop personally attacking her and support her for a change the only reason she is holding back is because she needs overwhelming support to actually win.

    The verbal gymnastics English commentators are going through just now ,they are unable to acknowledge even grudgingly the Scottish government are embarrassing the English government in every single area of government , as Foulks said and they are doing it Deliberately ,

    On LBC a London based radio station right now Nicola is getting more Air Time than she could buy the English media are doing the heavy lifting all we need is to mix it up stir it up ha ha get the Duckers arguing amongst themselves .

  205. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Kirstene Hair?”

    Because I bet you a fiver they’ll put her up as a candidate.

  206. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It is a risk, it is a gamble, which may backfire.”

    Oh God I can’t keep explaining this to stupid people for the rest of my life.

    It is NOT a risk. It will NOT backfire. Either the SNP vote will hold up, in which case they’ll get a majority without needing a single list vote, or it’ll fall back, in which case list votes for other pro-indy parties will still be worth about 8 times what an SNP list vote is worth, and more likely to protect an indy majority.

  207. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If this was to take off, the obvious response of the unionist parties would be to game the constituency vote.”

    Don’t be stupid. How would that even work? Are pro-indy Labour voters going to vote Tory just to block independence? Some hardcore Tories might conceivably vote Labour in a seat like Edinburgh South, but Labour are in such a feeble state even the entire Tory vote added to their own wouldn’t be enough to get them more than a couple of seats.

  208. shug says:

    There are a lot of anti Salmond headlines in the papers today!!

    Someone must be bricking it

  209. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “That means “people like Annie Wells, Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie, Jamie Greene, James Kelly, Alex Cole-Hamilton and Kirstene Hair” would continue to form the Scottish opposition after independence.”

    Whatever happens after independence is a matter of democracy. All I’m concerned about is achieving it.

  210. orri says:

    Gaining list seats to hold the SNP to account is pointless unless the SNP don’t have a majority. It’s finding the sweet spot where your party is essential to them forming a government. I’m sure the Greens have already figured that out. So as long as they think they’ll get enough list seats they’re going to stand candidates in constituencies where it’ll stop just enough SNP MSPs from being elected.

    That’s why a party on the list must do more than put themselves forward as the SNPs butt monkey. They need to stand on a manifesto that will draw votes. I think an over 50% vote for us and there’s no need for a referendum it’s a mandate for independence in all honesty won’t get near that but should pull in enough support to get 1 or 2 seats per region. Then again it’s a long load to May and the Scottish electorate might be sick of waiting and go for it. Obviously they’ll back the SNP if it ever gets of it’s arse and push for a referendum and if they do get over 50% then Westminster pissing about with refusing an s30 won’t wash, not that it ever did.
    Regardless of which there’s little doubt that the unionists will pull out all the stops to target any SNP constituency candidates including fake supporters claiming we should vote against or abstain because the losses will be made up on the list. They’ll also try their hand at voter suppression to discourage SNP votes bothering to turn up. Especially in constituencies and regions where the SNP are strongest. A vote of 50% or 60% doesn’t make a difference after all. Except when they get added together.

    They might, tin hat on, infiltrate the SNP in order to get chancers that are so woke standing that they turn guaranteed victory into defeat or a win on so low a vote that, again, the national average is beneath 50%. The magical level where a Holyrood election becomes a proxy referendum.

  211. Walter Jones says:

    Robert Graham and Mialuci,,,

    STURGEON is a washed up, dried up, has-been.

    STURGEON has aged due to the burden of having to face up to the lies she has been spouting regarding the Alex Salmond trial.

    STURGEON should resign with immediate effect and let somebody who has Scottish Independence has their number one priority.

  212. Breeks says:

    Effijy says:
    14 August, 2020 at 9:30 am

    Yes Ian Blackford has been caught out with an empty bluff
    On his threat to stop Scotland from being dragged out of the EU.

    …And don’t you think it’s very telling that the BritNat Propagandists never pick up on it? SNP caught out telling porkies? But not a peep in the newspapers or telescreens…

    The media never will of course, because they don’t want any mention of Scotland’s sovereign constitution seeing the light of day. Knowledge is power after all.

    I would genuinely like to see Nicola Sturgeon properly interrogated over the SNP’s abandonment of the Scottish Constitution, and by a non-partisan journalist who isn’t put off by dismissive platitudes like “I can’t get my head around that right now”.

    I honestly think Nicola would come badly unstuck. It’s not difficult looking clever beside the diddies at Holyrood, but an intelligent and well researched chairperson could make her squirm. Of course the Unionist media would never risk opening that Pandora’s box live on air.

    Paradoxically, I feel kinder towards Ian Blackford. At least he got to his feet and said the words. Of course Westminster was never going to afford the constitutional issues due respect, and their boorish reaction was entirely predictable, but at least the words are now entered in Hansard for future retrospection.

    It isn’t of course his failure to say the right things which condemns him, but his ‘apparent’ failure to have a meaningful response on hand for when his bluff was called. And that’s the crux of the matter… his bluff should never have been a bluff in the first place.

    But for all that… that entry in Hansard that “the people of Scotland are Sovereign and will not be taken out of Europe against their will”, might, repeat might be a ticking time bomb that has been deliberately understated.

    If I’d like to see Nicola interrogated over Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, maybe I’d also like to see Ian Blackford interrogated to determine whether he was instructed from the gradualists on high to avoid turning Brexit and Scotland’s subjugation into a Union busting constitutional ultimatum.

    There is something not right here, something that doesn’t add up. For one thing, if Ian Blackford was NOT up to speed on the Constitution, he could never have introduced the matter in his speech. So how does a man who KNOWS Scotland is being subjugated contrary to the Nation’s Constitution simply sit back down in his seat when it happens? If it was me I’d have stormed out of Westminster and kicked the door off it’s hinges on the way out.

    See, the thing is, when Ian Blackford was reeling off the words in Westminster, I didn’t think he was bluffing. It’s by no means infallible, but my own intuition is telling me he was perfectly sincere, and that wee apparent change of heart needs an explanation.

    It’s as if the SNP’s Westminster Contingent knows the Constitution in theory, but confidence in the practical is threadbare to say the least. It seems to me they had a game plan, they had a strategy, but let it slide, and I truly wonder if that is down to a lack of confidence, or whether it’s another enigmatic directive from the bunker beneath Bute House.

  213. Effijy says:

    Even if SNP get a straight majority an alternative Scottish Party gaining list seats
    Would clear our parliament of Clowns like Second Hand Carlaw, Fannie Wells, and
    where’s my sash Murdo.

    They would also be the only ones pushing a stagnant SNP toward independence
    and be asking them what they are standing by as Scotland gets R*ped.

    We must have a new party to fulfil these functions!

    I’d like to see all bodies who could form a Scottish United from to form that party.
    I’m a great supporter of Wings but I don’t thing the name should be used with the new
    More elderly supporters will think its a party promoting a new airport or an
    Energy drink, if not something that sticks to underwear.

    Sorry if that sounds rude or offends anyone but we need a simple name like the
    Scotland First Party.

  214. Ron Maclean says:

    @Scot Finlayson 8:06am

    ‘WTF is an `inside forward` and what does it do.’

    Playing a blinder ?
    An inside forward was either an inside left or an inside right who played in front of the left half or right half. They played in front of the left back or right back. Between the left half and right half was the centre half. He was usually the captain – a man of impressive physique, a loud voice, big fists and a tendency to use them when he felt he was surrounded by ‘useless twats’. There was also a goalie. The ball was made of leather and weighed a ton. In those days women did not usually grace the sea of mud or cinders which passed for football pitches. I hope that’s helpful.

  215. Defo @ 10.58 am

    “Do pay attention Jack old bean.
    There’s thousands of UK holidaymakers/carriers clamering to get on trains, planes & ferries that are already full. Today.
    Perception eh!
    Sarcastic banter, or nazi propaganda?
    I leave the reader to decide where you’re coming from.”

    Defo, you make my point more eloquently than I, with every word which you mis-type.
    The first fornight in August is traditionally the two weeks when our English friends and neighbours flock off to Europe.
    France is a favourite destination for Nigel the Dentist in Kent and his family, who flood Brittany and the West Coast in this High Season.
    I’ve witnessed it many times.
    The throng clam(b)erring to get on ferries and Eurostar are predominantly English / Home Counties ‘refugees’. Perhaps Bernard Miles and the John Bull Kentish Folk can fire up the engines of their pleasure boats and chunter across the Channel to pick up survivors right enough.
    In October, the EU 27 will, and are perfectly prepared to, write off England. No more Booze Cruises. No more ay trips to Calais. Kent will be a giant car park as asthma sufferers can’t get their medication, and 16 wheelers full of Marmite and Penguin biscuits rot in their packs.

    Yet on here you advocate any old numpty standing on a single issue ‘independence’ ticket, and we blindly give him or her the keys to the kingdom?
    Aye, that’ll be shinin’ bright.
    There will be no SGE as we know it next May.
    The English parliament will destroy devolution on Day One Jan 31st 2021.

  216. Tannadice Boy says:

    These days the youngsters call an inside forward, ‘Centre Mid’

  217. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Effijy at 11:35 am.

    You typed,
    “Even if SNP get a straight majority an alternative Scottish Party gaining list seats would clear our parliament of Clowns like Second Hand Carlaw, Fannie Wells, and where’s my sash Murdo.”

    I explained earlier this morning…

    Unless Murdo stands down, he will still be first on the tory list for Mid Scotland and Fife. Even if 80-100% of the SNP regional vote shifted to a Pro-Indy party, there would still be enough unionist (blue, red and orange) votes to ensure that some unionists would be elected.

  218. Tannadice Boy says:

    Shut says

    I noticed the anti Salmond press output as well. Times, Express somebody is briefing against him.

  219. Bob W says:


    Anyone else using safari on iPhone stuck in a reCaptcha loop while trying to access or

  220. stuart mctavish says:

    Granted you too may have had a different reaction had Arrigo Sacchi been asking but the right footed Maldini being keen to play anywhere just to get a game might be an equally profound lesson..

    As could imagining Ukip to be ISP for purpose of illustration and tapping the following in the appropriate boxes:
    57 14 20 6 and
    47 21 14 6 6 6 0 at

    Then type in
    17 21 14 21 6 21 0
    in the regional boxes and keep an eye on the labour & conservative seats 🙂

  221. kapelmeister says:

    Carrie On Camping

    Boris and his other ‘arf are reported to be having their Scottish holiday under canvas. His idea no doubt. To try and look like a spartan living man of the people. She apparently likes luxury, so Boris’s ex, Petronella Wyatt is predicting that it might spark divorce.

    More importantly, Johnson’s aggression towards Scotland is definitely going to spark divorce between Albion and Caledonia. And Sturgeon won’t be able to stop it.

  222. defo says:

    Jack, you actually wrote, and again the reader can judge…
    “Yet on here you advocate any old numpty standing on a single issue ‘independence’ ticket, and we blindly give him or her the keys to the kingdom?
    Aye, that’ll be shinin’ bright.
    There will be no SGE as we know it next May.
    The English parliament will destroy devolution on Day One Jan 31st 2021”

    Firstly, May elections are hardly going to matter if Holyrood is shut.
    As for your, not my, assessment of suitable candidates…
    Keys to the kingdom!

    You can’t just smell the panic amongst the anointed & their Klingon friends, you can taste it now.

    Spaces for a place at the trough are strictly limited.

  223. schrodingers cat says:

    Effijy says:
    We must have a new party to fulfil these functions!

    actually, we already have a few. what we need is stu to come out and actually back one.

    stu proposed the idea of a wos party in order to promote the tactical voting plan. this is no longer required. Also, he is on record saying he doesnt want to be an msp. i dont blame him.

    I coudnt really care which indy list party becomes the front runner, only that an out and out favourite emerges and the others drop back into obscurity

    what say you stu?

  224. Leslie Ross says:

    Labelling 2nd Vote SNP as wasted is too simplistic without detailed scenarios for each area’s regional vote and the sequence of parties elected.

    When I used Cutbot’s model with this latest poll (which resulted in 71 + 6 regional seats), it indicated there were only two regions with sufficient ‘headroom’ to transfer votes to another Indy party without a lot of risk, and two others where the Greens were at risk

  225. schrodingers cat says:

    re the 2 regions.

    i think we should re evaluate that.

    if the snp is still on 57% come the election, constituency polls would show the swing in the vote towards the snp, it might be wise to also stand in the south

    if the south constituencies do fall to the snp, the chances of gallowway getting elected on the list increases. thats why he is standing in the south.

    at the very least, a high profile yesser standing on the list in the south could go a long way to deny him a seat.

    i think this is worth pursuing

  226. Al-Stuart says:

    Hi MaggieC

    You post that Alex Salmond is NOT writing a book and quote Stuart Campbell as the source of this.

    I checked back to your date and time you cited (8th August 2020 had just one WoS thread) and Iscrolled all through the 1am to 3am period to double-check your source reference but cannot find it…

    As Robert said in this thread (and I am paraphrasing): The SNP now expect your vote. It is not a right to arrogantly expect to win ballots. The SNP should have to earn each vote.

    Maggie, in 2007 I LENT my vote to Alex Salmond and have lent my vote to the SNP ever since,

    But I will be damned if I am voting for Nicola’s SNP again. What for? More Woke legislation I did NOT ask for. Neither did I ask for GRA or the badly written Hate Speech 1984 Orwellian cr@p that will allow the wee cretinous McWoke faction free reign to attack ordinary people and shut down free speech, including CLOSING DOWN THIS WINGS OVER SCOTLAND WEBSITE.

    My hope is that Alex Salmond IS writing his book as a presage for him coming back to sort out this unholy mess in the SNP.

    Otherwise, sooner or later the SNP WILL go the way of Scottish Labour.

    I guarantee it.

    Once the electorate catch on that they have been stitched up by Nicola Sturgeon’s never-gonna-use-any-of-these-mandates pi5h, the verdict is quick, brutal, definitive and legally binding.

    My SNP MP Mike Weir will be given their P45.

    My brother’s SNP MSP Dr Paul Monaghan got his jotters. The SNP will lose seats by the dozen. All RETIRED or BOOTED OUT and quite rightly so. What goes up most often comes down. The miracle after 2014 was tens of thousands of mugs like me joining the SNP and giving my money and support to the SNP.

    The current clique at the top of the SNP are about to kill off any chance for Independence.

    Do you know how many tens of thousands of people work at the intelligence agencies in GCHQ/MI5/MI6 etc? What do you think these bright minded folk do all day? Knit woolly bunnets? Play solitaire on their computers? Aye right. They are required to follow the instructions of the British Prime Minister. Uniquely, Boris declared a new ministry and title for himself…


    Maggie, do you think for one moment the Awesome ability of the British State are going to let Scotland escape this indentured servitude?

    The current WOKE FUBAR at SNP High Command has at least SIX “Sleepers” that were activated on 19th September 2014.

    We now see fairly clearly the fruits of their labours: to destroy the SNP from within. To eliminate any risk that Scotland will ever become independent.

    All I know for sure at this point is that Alex Salmond is the ONLY politician in Scotland that I trust.

    I would not blame Alex if he kept the title he gave to HM Court as his position: “Retired Politician”.

    God knows, Alex Salmond has given his life’s work to the cause of Independence and came very close to giving his liberty.

    To ask the man to come back for one last Herculean effort may well be an ask too much.

    But please mark my words: If Alex Salmond hunkers down in the Old Millhouse at Strichen and deservedly enjoys his retirement, there is very little hope for Scottish Independence in any of our lifetimes. Joanna Cherry has been neutered and there are NO politicians within or outwith Holyrood that have the gravitas, drive and honesty to get IndyRef2 done.

    Maggie, I was looking forward to reading Alex Salmond’s book. If you say he is NOT writing a book, c’est la vie. What would really worry me is if Alex is definitely retired forever. That my friends is check-mate.

    Game over.

    The British Empire has won.

  227. Ron Maclean says:

    Interesting campaign ideas from Iain Lawson’s ‘Everyone’s Politics are Different’ on

  228. Tannadice Boy says:

    Al stuart says

    I remember the post where Stu said Alex Salmond wasn’t writing a book. I was very disappointed at the time but the post was definitely posted.

  229. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Al-Stuart –

    It’s on this thread, at 2.10 am

  230. iain mhor says:

    It’s about the clearest thing I’ve read on the subject today – List voting isn’t ‘to damage the SNP, it’s to damage the unionists’

    Not everyone’s outlook I’m sure, but it echoes mine. That’s how I began my voting. Even where it was a ‘wasted vote’ where the SNP had no chance. Eventually, it wasn’t wasted, eventually, slowly, deposits were not lost, results became tighter, people noticed.

    Not everyone jumps in with both feet. Many wait and gauge the wind. Days when they can look and see ‘an hundred more votes could actually have seen that candidate over the line…

    Scotland has a dearth of strong Scottish parties. Hypothetically, post independence and the *cough dissolution of the SNP – who are you going to vote for – Tories & Labour with a tartan bunnet on – just back to the same old same old.

    New parties must come from somewhere. Some come some go. But if we look to modern European nations, they have no dearth of political choice, coalitions are a normal state of affairs.
    The rise and fall and alliances of smaller parties and candidates are entirely normal – they even get elected, sometimes they even become the biggest.

    If we are seeking independence and we are seeking to build a new Scotland and we do want people to have an alternative democratic voice and we don’t want to mirror the same buggins turn shite’, then we must begin building such politics today.

    If that means taking a look and possibly voting for a new alternative list candidate/party (or the existing small parties already out there) then that is what I consider long term tactical voting – for me, personally.

    The SNP are big enough and ugly enough to shift for themselves and will probably even see my constituency vote – achieving independence won’t be damaged on the chance they might be.
    If there really is a swell of support for Indy, if the SNP really are serious about it – a seat lost here and there won’t put a dent in it. Making a unionists arse go like a rabbits nostrils – even if they scrape by – will definity put a dent in them.

    In the long term scenario, when we smell of cabbage and stale pish, what choice did we leave our successors? Not a lot at this rate.

  231. Fireproofjim says:

    The BBC has commissioned a programme called “The Alex Salmond Trial” to be shown next week. Just as the enquiry gets under way.
    Guess who is fronting this programme. – Kirsty Wark. A woman who has made no secret of her dislike of Alex Salmond and Independence. A woman whose own boss apologised for her “rude and dismissive” interviewing with Alex before the referendum.
    I have written to the Director General of the BBC and to Newswatch BBC, pointing out the obvious bias which she will bring to the programme.
    Look out for the alphabet women, sobbing about their trauma when Alex was found not guilty, (by a majority female jury).
    It’s another BBC hatchet job. I urge everyone to write to the BBC about it.

  232. Robert Pennington says:

    Bloody Borders!

    What an embarrassment.

  233. gus1940 says:


    Re the tragic rail accident at Stonehaven the so far unasked question is ‘Why it took so long for the tragedy to be discovered?’

    In today’s modern signalling systems with track circuitry surely the position and status of all trains should be apparent at all times.

    Surely it cannot be possible that what is part of the East Coast Main Line is not covered by control systems which are near universal elsewhere in the system.

    If that is the case it is just another example of the second class treatment of Scotland and its railways.

  234. Breeks says:

    Almond Chutney says:
    14 August, 2020 at 9:24 am

    What if Scotland first opted for a different relationship with rUK. Rather than a clean break, an economic union rather than political would mean a very different relationship than we have today…

    Well, we would disagree about DevoMAX or Federalism (or any derivative thereof) being a necessary intermediary step between full Independence, but that said, I have in the past suggested that both Scotland and Westminster are missing a trick.

    Back in the early days after the Brexit result, I made a suggestion that Scotland, with a sovereign mandate to end the Union any time it liked, should negotiate with Westminster from a position of strength.

    Scotland should lobby Westminster to recognise Scottish Independence was inevitable, but, that in exchange for an amicable dissolution of the UK Union, Scotland could, as an EU member state, negotiate with Europe to create a special “British” trading area similar in concept to the Benelux Union, where the traditional trading practices of British Isles could (to a degree) carry on in parrallel to EU Conditions, with Scotland and Ireland being EU Members, with England and Wales being non-members.

    In other words, Scotland (and Ireland) would be a buffer-zone / clearing house filtering post Brexit EU trade of British and English goods which complied with EU standards, and allowing that trade to flow on to mainland Europe.

    England might thus embark of it’s Brexit adventure without going “cold turkey”, but maintain trading links with the EU through Scotland, as a kind of insurance arrangement if Brexit suddenly went horribly, horribly wrong.

    Scotland would have to rigourously check and maintain the standards and compliance of goods moving through Scotland and on to Europe, but I thought that was entirely “doable”, and would warrant substantial investment and support from Europe and London to heavily invest in upgrading Scotland’s Trading Ports and rail infrastructure to cope with the demand.

    “Everybody” could have got something that they wanted out of Brexit, and made the best of a bad lot.

    But none of this was remotely possible from the moment Nicola Sturgeon decided that Scotland’s sovereign mandate to remain in Europe was worthless. She single handedly removed Scotland from a bargaining position of strength, and delivered Scotland to Westminster, trussed up in Scotland Act red tape, and incapable of independent thought or action.

    Love her or hate her, that strategy of Nicola Sturgeon was catastrophic for Scotland, and for evidence of that, you need look no further than the effective veto she has presented to Westminster through declaring a Section 30 Agreement being vital to any Scottish referendum, with every other option declared unlawful. Congratulation Nicola. Scotland has taken itself hostage.

    It is the colonial Scotland Act and UK Union itself which is built on extremely shakey ground, and is reliant upon ambiguous unwritten conventions to shore up it’s extremely dubious legitimacy. Yet Scotland’s Government is treating this bogus UK Constitution as the gospel which cannot be challenged, while Scotland’s explicit and unambiguous Sovereign Constitution which should be beyond challenge, is left languishing in obscurity. That’s madness.

    in fact it is more than madness. It is a criminal dereliction of resposibility.

  235. James Che. says:

    Any candidate running on ending the treaty of the union will get my vote, and many others will do the same i am sure,
    However this is urgent as
    a) there are those in the snp that say sovereignty must lie with the parliament not the people.
    b) the civil service are already here in place, to end Holyrude when the signal is given by Westminster.
    The part of Scotland I live in has next to no Indy parties or candidates and this has being seriously overlooked as it covers a large area.
    My prediction is there will no voting for any of us in 2021, as we won’t have a parliament,

  236. mike cassidy says:

    Boris Johnson wildcamping

    With Julian and Sandy, no doubt.

  237. Gullane No 4 says:

    Reading between the lines there seems to be some Indepndence ‘supporters’on here who would prefer losing Indy2 than relying on the support of the greens to gain Independence.

  238. Anna Nemus says:

    “Because I bet you a fiver they’ll put her up as a candidate”

    Aye, fair point!

  239. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi gus1940 at 1:25 pm.

    You typed,
    “Re the tragic rail accident at Stonehaven the so far unasked question is ‘Why it took so long for the tragedy to be discovered?’”

    It didn’t take particularly long.
    The 0638 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen Street (1T08), was the second southbound service out of Aberdeen this morning.
    The preceding train, the Montrose local, completed its journey; but a report came in that the line was flooded between Carmont and Laurencekirk and this required 1T08 to be held at Carmont while an assessment was undertaken.

    The train stood for some considerable time before it became evident the line could not be cleared and it would be best to return to Aberdeen (this explains the three hours).
    The driver of 1T08 then changed ends and the train went past Carmont signal box and back to Stonehaven on the line to Aberdeen then subsequently derailed one and a half miles north of Carmont.
    (I have a pal who lives in the area and knows how the railway works there.)

  240. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The alarm was raised simultaneously by a member of the public seeing the smoke and an off-duty guard on the train walking back down the track to the signal box.

  241. Angry Weegie says:

    I can see the argument for voting for a separate indy list party. However, there are (at least) three difficulties which need to be addressed.

    First, if the list party gets a reasonable number of seats, will this convince (or force?) the SNP to move at a different pace, especially if they have an overall majority.

    Second, though I can see that a list party might succeed, there could be a number of different indy list parties asking for your vote. If the list votes get split between 3 or 4 different parties, the chances are that none will make sufficient impact to gain seats and this may result in more BritNat seats, not fewer. If the SNP fail to get the number of constituency seats currently forecast (remember there are 9 months to go), that may result in a BritNat majority in parliament, which would crush any hopes of IndyRef2.

    Third, the indy list parties may not stand for constituency seats, though I have seen supporters suggesting they should, but how will they campaign without arguing against the SNP. If their arguments succeed, will they cause some voters to reconsider voting for the SNP in the constituency ballot?

  242. Al-Stuart says:

    Tannadice Boy, Ian Brotherhood and MaggieC .,

    THANKYOU for the link. That is VERY HELPFUL even if it is exceptionally disappointing to discover Alex Salmond is not writing a book.

    Hopefully Alex is, instead, focussing his exceptional intellect and resources to sorting out a way to REPAIR the damage being wrought by the McWokeist infestation at SNP-HQ and Nicola’s lamentable preference to be a regional manager of devolved North Britain.

    Alarmingly, the wise words from Breeks sees our glorious leader, Nicola Sturgeon in full thrall of the make-up-devisive-self-interested-laws-whilst-dumping-IndyRef2 mode….

    I know for a fact, as an MSP told me this… many SNP MSPs read Wings Over Scotland.

    So if you are an SNP MSP reading this, please listen up…


    I am very close to giving the SNP the same message I gave New Labour in 2007. Once you lose my vote, I will not come back to your party.

    I know I am not alone in this. For the politically naive, how do you think the SNP got to be so powerful? New Labour took its eye of the ball, it betrayed its electoral base and they gave New Labour MPs and MSPs the bum’s rush. Thousands of us LENT our vote to the SNP. What? The Nicola fan club think this couldn’t or wouldn’t happen again?

    Stop being so arrogant and ignorant. The days when the SNP struggled to muster a pathetic 6 MPs in Westminster can and will come back. Then all fair minded Scots, the ones that work, live and die here, will have to start all over again and it will be 2050 before we have another “Perfect Storm” for getting our Independence from the likes of that rancid, lethal Covid-incompetent little creep in 10 Downing Street and his ilk.

    I know Alex Salmond and the SILP project have to keep cards close to the chest.

    But if SILP (Scottish Independence List Party) does NOT happen, we may just as well get used to being governed by the English Parliament. Close Holyrood as the festering laws that dysfunctional legal sausage factory produces are more toxic than Chernobyl.

    Turn Holyrood into houses for the homeless. At lest then, it would then have an honourable purpose. Fewer politicians is generally a better thing. Less political parasites on that despicable gravy train being driven by Nicola and her McWoke fan club with Creepy “daddy” Alyn Smyth as the over friendly train conductor.

  243. john rose says:

    @rev, what I’m saying is that if we start to game the system, the unionists would go full ulster on us. The branch parties would dissolve, and be replaced by a middle of the road unionist party with no real policy other than cementing the union. The lib demo might stay around in the Highlands, but the other two already have been marginalised by their head office enough to make the break organic.
    The tories, and what’s left of Labour have been salivating at the chance to ulsterise politics here. Any tactic that could be spun as “unfair” would result in 5 years of being ignored as “undemocratic” followed by being faced with a single unionist entity.
    If we are to succeed, we must never give the impression of not representing the significant majority…

  244. Velofello says:

    @ Scot Findlayson: inside forward, technically means you could run about the middle of the pitch. Freedom!

  245. scottish skier says:

    The above article appears to completely contradict this earlier, excellent one:

    “It’s not this site’s business to tell anyone how to vote. What these numbers strongly suggest, though, is that tactical voting – of any sort and for anyone’s benefit – in an AMS election is a mug’s game. You should vote for the party or parties that you most want to see form the government, rather than trying to second-guess the system. Because if you try, chances are it’ll make a chump out of you.”

  246. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    When I played footie with the primary school team and my BB team, my preferred position was outside-left, or ‘left winger’.

    My heroes were Shug Robertson (Dundee) and Davy Wilson (Rangers).

    Slater, Hamilton, Cox.
    Seith, Ure, Wishart.
    Smith, Penman, Cousin, Gilzean, Robertson.

    Ritchie, Shearer, Caldow.
    Greig, McKinnon, Baxter.
    Henderson, McLean, Forrest, Brand, Wilson.

  247. Camz says:

    I’d like to see the otherwise marginalised ones within the SNP have the courage to form an Indy party that is 99% less woke (reflecting the electorate) and 200% more Indy-minded (countering the media). Salmond would be the ideal leader (c’mon manny – ye canna bide at hame). Possibly in a C&S style agreement with the SNP, when appropriate.

    If the Greens want to muck in, great, but Green policies are secondary to Indy.

    Indy first. Everything else second. Yes everything. Let’s put this to bed and get on with being shot of Westminster and all its insidious people and practices.

    Let’s be run by people that are within Scotland’s borders when they make the decisions and travel home. People who are focussed on Scotland first.

  248. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The above article appears to completely contradict this earlier, excellent one:”

    Sigh. I’ve answered that feeble “gotcha” about half a dozen times now and you’re not coming here to troll with it yet again. Stick to your nice wee echo chamber on SGP.

  249. velofello says:

    In fitba” terms for UK United – Scotland plays left back, Wales plays right back, and Northern Ireland plays goalie.And so England gets to fill the mid-field and striker positions. Referee and linesmen/women? From the House of Lords.

    Team song? ” And we’ll all pull together…”.Is that song an English public school song?

    And Scot Findlayson, if you want to witness top-class inside forward play, watch the Scotland’s Women team player, Kim Little. Smart and mobile, and she read’s the game so well.

  250. Kenneth G Coutts says:

    My wee brain says if the SNP vote goes up as predicted
    And the unionists vote goes down then the unionists will increase their list seats.
    Hence, list only independistas will have to target areas.

  251. John Walsh says:

    As of January 1st 2021. post Brexit all change in “British Politics”
    There will be no Holyrood as we know it next May.
    Cummings plan is to castrate the SG ability to fight any independence attempt.
    Henry VIII Powers are unchallengeable.
    The English parliament will destroy devolution in 2021.
    The wokerati better prepare for being told what to do from WM
    They don’t have the fight in them. #toolittle #toolate

  252. Ian Foulds says:

    GeeH says:
    13 August, 2020 at 6:25 pm
    As long as we’re going to push the both votes SNP message in south of Scotland and Orkney and Shetland regions, I’m all for everyone backing a new indy list party.

    Of course, the SNP could still fck it all up with their gender reforms p*sh, once the tabloids and BBC start alerting the nation to the dangers.

    Generally agree.

    Consider that Greens, ISP and any other need to stand for list vote in constituency they feel best suits them and have only one per constituency. whether historical fo Greens or strength/local popularity for other Independence parties. Anything to exclude Unionist house Jocks and Jockesses.

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