Her Loyal Subject
Posted on
January 11, 2020 by
Chris Cairns
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11 01 20 07:57
Her Loyal Subject | speymouth
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Sums it all up, Chris. Personally I’m pissed-off hearing about them non-stop in and on the media.
The sooner we can get Independence become a republic the better, it’s the only way to keep a grip on reality, innocent people suffering all over the world and all they’ve been speaking about pampered people who’ve never did a stroke and been handed everything are we living in a real world.
Royals Flushed!
A UK Royal on TV most weeks for many years and
An Actress with a Lead Role in a TV Series lasting 10
Years have returned from touring the globe and they want
To be anonymous?
What they thinking an Igloo in the Artic or a Hut up the Anazon
great cartoon.
Mr union jack career-boy himself, Iain Murray, who represents the Labour party and himself, stood up in the house of commons this week, and effectively slagged off his own country.
What kind of a person does that?? Iain Murray, effectively stood up and said to a baying mob of English Tories, ‘Does the Prime Minister agree, that my country of Scotland is sh*te, and so could never join the EU, once independent?’. Seriously, why do unionists like Murray hate their own country so much?
But it is worse than that, he said that Scotland could not re-join the EU if independent, due to its deficit. Firstly, Scotland has no deficit, since the Scottish Government has to balance the books every year, and does. Any deficit which exists is due to Westminster’s wasteful spending, on things like, oh, I don’t know some posh bloke called Harry. Secondly, countries can join the EU with a deficit, they just cannot join the Euro. Iain Murray knows all of that.
I just don’t understand the motivation to travel to London, so you can publicly slag off your own country to a bunch of English Tory lying racist bas***ds. Does Iain have any notion of how pathetic that makes him look?
Which brings me on to the royals. Harry Windsor (who has basically been on one big long jolly, dicking around at taxpayers expense for the last ten years at least), can do what he wants, just don’t expect taxpayers to keep paying him, or funding his playboy lifestyle.
Why don’t you go the full hog Harry, get a DNA test and see if the man your mother had an affair with, James Lifford Hewitt, is your real Dad, as you have an uncanny resemblance to him.
That way you can legitimately leave the royal family behind if he is. Oh wait, if you do that you’ll lose millions a year in pocket money from us subjects. Maybe best not to!
Little bit o/t but just seen that a baker in Glasgow are making ‘End of Empire’ biscuits.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18153080.hilarious-saltire-empire-biscuits-sold-glasgow-ahead-one-banner-march/
What a great idea!
Mind Murrays stinkin suit well. Dunno who’s worse, him or those deluded lovebirds. The only class in this outfit is wee Archie – for now. Auld Betty Battenburg will ruin him n’aw.
Ot. Just going out the door to join the Glasgow march.
Best wishes to all our fellow marchers, weather no that bad, been out with the dogs.see you all there.
The wrong end of the stick?
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/08/uk/meghan-harry-royal-baby-us-tax-intl-gbr/index.html
I’m on my way to Glasgow….I shall not be moved.
Repeat as required.
Yep, what a brilliant distraction from the massive damage the Britnats at Westminster are doing to the real people, with real lives, who can’t just say ‘fck it, we are out of here, it’s not fair we have to
work, pay council tax and energy bills and do our own shopping!’ Boo hoo, where’s the next flight to luxury island!
No, real people facing real life issues like redundancy, poverty and homelessness, are not such a nice and convenient distraction from Westminster Britnats’ selfish, nasty, insular, backward victorian vision of UK, pulling up the ladder behind them, while buying themselves out of the cesspit they are creating.
‘Living off the state, a critical guide to royal finance’ by Jon Temple, published by Progress books, is a tip of the iceberg read about just how these people live, spending public money like it’s going out of fashion, and the dodgy way in which they accumulate even more booty.
It’s actually quite frightening just how much power the ones at the top do have, and how much they are literally beyond the law! The people are being swindled but so many love seeiing the rolls royces, and waving, doffing their ragged old caps, bowing to their masters. It’s backward, undemocratic and totally antiquated. This so called ‘royal’ institution needs to be reformed, but it won’t be. Rule Brutannia bong, bong, bong, end of January, get your ear plugs people there will be a run on them in the shops next couple of weeks.
So off you trot you pampered, immorally rich and totally privileged, never lift a finger fantasy lives troughers, at least you won’t have to listen to the bells bong bonging like some Notredame scary film on the 31st, will you!
Harry must hate with a passion the Brutish press especially the BBC,
after how they they treated his mum and now his wife,
Meghan,Harry and kids need to get out of little england with its institutionalised racism,xenophobia,class obsession and corrupt media esp BBC,
as for the buffoon Murray this is what Malcolm X had to say about his type,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kf7fujM4ag&t=
Weather in the west of Glasgow is dire , I have already been soaked and am now about to venture out for the second soaking , whether I make it to the third soaking is doubtful.
All good wishes to all attending the march in Glasgow today, hope the rain stays off, the wind is quite bad, looking at earthwindmap, but in the city not too horrendous. After a string of bugs and at the end of another cold, I can’t risk being more unwell. Caring really takes it’s toll.
Independence, what do we want, independence! ?
Oh no Dorithy it doesn’t sound good weather then, damn.
I have been a republican for a long time. I hope that soon after Independence iScotland gets rid of these over privileged, pampered popinjays and has a properly elected head of state. We can do what the Irish have been and have peaceniks and poets as preseidents.
Actually, all this media fuss-pottery reveals to all who will see just how fragile puir wee UKOK is now. It’s so fragile that nothing institutional can now be permitted to change. One push and the lot will collapse like a house of cards. And that’s just what the fawning supporters of the union think!
.
Mr Cairns,
You have a brilliant talent.
Thank you for helping me smile this driech morning 🙂
@Robert Louis at 7.49am
Spot on Robert. Ian Murray is a disgrace to Scotland. How he can stand and say these things a bout Scotland is beyond the pale. He had been found out by many Scots but not the Scots Tories who vote for him in his Constituency. But then again him and they (his voters) are the House Jocks as described by Malcolm X so elequently in the video posted by Scot Finlayson at 9.49am
The sooner we get Indepedence and get rid of these patronising House Jocks all the better.
TheItalianJob says:
11 January, 2020 at 11:08 am
@Robert Louis at 7.49am
Spot on Robert. Ian Murray is a disgrace to Scotland. How he can stand and say these things a bout Scotland is beyond the pale
Spot on, TIJ. I’m in my mid 60s and the only prospectus the BritNats have offered Scotland in my lifetime can be summed up by “Scots and Scotland are shite. Vote for us and we’ll make sure you stay shite, so that we can enrichen ourselves at your expense”.
It’s time to let the fantasy of the “British nation” die.
http://archive.is/zdtr3
https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/AUOBindyref2020-Cam3Front
I just got back from my second soaking and was watching the live stream and feeling very wimpish as I looked at the good folk who were drenched. I am ashamed of myself.
((((( DAMN SEPARATISTS! )))))
@Dorothy Devine –
Well done you for going at all.
I cried off last night, just couldn’t see the point if there’s no stall, no gathering point where we could all have done the usual pow-wow.
The images trickling onto Twitter look good. Haven’t yet seen any indication of numbers.
The quality of likenesses you’ve reached, Chris, has reached archival art form. Have you been commission by publications yet, or doing any children’s book illustrations? Just askin’.
Your essential weekend reading:
England’s love of fascism: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-oi4
Rise of Skywalker – a review: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-ogB
Nice one! Surely time to resurrect the old joke about there being more Pandas in Scotland than Labour MPs.
Great tha5 even in this weather people are going out to march.
But there comes a time when the politicos need to deliver. Election after election, mandate after mandate and we go back the way.
Me, I’m fucking sick of marching. Come to that it’s about as good as.voting. No fucking good either. Maybe we should just kick heads instead. Start a new Settler Watch to rid ourselves of the colonial governors like Alister Jack and his Westminster puppeteers. Of course not! But It’s about as democratic as that with the way our democratic choices are trampled underfoot – truly it is and out of EU it’s going to get uglier.
But funny old world too how days before we’re out of the EU the Northern Ireland assembly restores itself. What’s that all about. What’s going on there. Maybe it was all about to get too hot to handle – and maybe, just maybe, a United Ireland is nearer than we think.
The voting demographics in NI now favouring nationalism, the vote is in favour of remaining in the EU, the international difficulties of having Ireland in the EU and NI out, it could well be that behind the scenes, the EU is telling the UK what it must do. NI’s time as unionist colony is maybe up.
mike cassidy said at 11:30 am
” It’s time to let the fantasy of the “British nation” die.
http://archive.is/zdtr3 ”
You beat me to it!– It’s from yesterday’s New York Times.
A good read.
Across the world in every corner of the earth the English controlled media are there to film and record the injustices of countries who they say thwart or stifle democracy or pervert power for the ends of corrupt despots or dictators
Wherever the people cry out for fairness or help, the English controlled media are there to report these doings to us in our living rooms across the United Kingdom, we are not spared the details of oppression or wrongness by foreign states to their people because the English media are the bastions of honesty integrity and all that is fair in the United Kingdom and will report it without fear or favour
Except when it happens in Scotland, then they don’t want anybody to know, oh they film it alright and they record it alright but they do not want anybody to see it or know it’s happening, well not until they’ve squashed it that is then they can show its failure in gloating documentaries of Englands benevolence in allowing those people who took part in expressions of their desire for equality and their sadness at not achieving it
The great English controlled media did that right after 2014, and oh my but wasn’t there plenty of coverage apres that event, during it there was almost silence as if it didn’t exist
We shall she if the great English controlled fair and honest media get away with NOT being the bastions of truth and honesty this year
Ian , no congratulations due to me – went out this morning to get some shopping , got soaked , met friends for a quick coffee intending to nip off and join the march thereafter , got soaked and reneged on the march , now sitting at home hugging the radiator and trying to heat up while watching the clips from the march and admiring them all , particularly those in wheelchairs and feeling thoroughly ashamed.
But you are right , for all the marches I have been on and felt amongst friends , it was really good to turn up at the Wings stall and know that there were many kent faces .
Here’s another one, how can there be a UK government when there is no one in that government who represents the will of Scotland
Scotland voted against Brexit by a large majority so every or any Scottish MP at Westminster who takes the opposite view is not representing their constituents in Scotland
There is only an English government at Westminster representing England, we cannot keep referring to Westminster as representative of the UK when it’s clearly not, Westminster is a foreign government
Now meghan is in Canada and Harry in London I hope she has good security
I was looking up Ian Murray’s constituency and wondering how it came to vote Labour being such a well heeled, middle class area. But it seems for most of its life it voted Unionist and then Conservative (and Unionist). Perhaps this is where all the wealthy retired civil servants and shopkeepers go to spend their pensions.
Neil Hay came close to unseating Ian Murray in 2015 but he was smeared by someone trawling through his twitter archive. Pity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_South_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Good picture. I can’t understand what all the British Media fuss is about TBH. They’re still wittering on about it on the radio as I type.
I landed in hospital but fine other than the pain of missing the March.
Wish too it was held the day after Bojo drags a nation out of Europe against its will.
Well done everyone who stood up for Scotland
I know the reason the Scottish lords voted for the union was because they were bribed but surely it must have been plain to see that the number of MPs that Scotland would be allowed compared to England it was not an equal Union and never would be it is a farce we have been treated like a defeated nation not a partner as for the the house slaves well as I said I’ve got a little list ???
Chris as usual getting the point and making fun of the powerful.
Been thinking of where we, as a movement, go from here. Most folk recognise that a campaign needs to start and pretty damn soon to get folk engaged or re-engaged but who is going to front said campaign is where I’m struggling.
Also, where are the politicians debunking dodgy claims and what about a vision for how we want our country to be?
There are definite issues that need sorting pdq such as currency and EU/EFTA membership. Tried to argue about currency with folk but really, what are we planning? There needs to be a strategy in place.
I’ve made a list of things I’m planning to ask our MP shortly and will not be fobbed off this time.
Do we need to start mass lobbing emails etc to our elected representatives so they get the picture because we cannot go on being passive any longer…
Latest News
Chinese communist billionaire is buying London mansion for £200m.
Russian oligarchs money laundering through English judicial system.
Old England is back on form!
Vive la république écossaise!
THE SCOTTISH DIGITAL COVENANT
Will be launched tomorrow.
It is a very exciting idea to advance the cause of Independence.
Heard about it on the AUOB Post March press conference just finished.
What is it? It is nothing less than a digital Referendum.
Well around 30 of us braved the weather on Brodick seafront on Arran, we stood standing around for ten minutes or so and somebody said lets march through the Village so we did, got lots of horn peeps as well as a good soaking but we were with AOUB in spirit.
Just back from the March, soaked. Anyway great day, estimates at around 80,000. Away for a shower.
Capella, Nigel Griffiths first won Edinburgh South for Labour in the 1990s. There are a lot of students, academics, NHS nurses and the like living here, plus the outer fringes have council housing estates. That’s where the Labour vote came from.
Must have been a big march in Glasgow today, the BritNat trolls on twitter are raging. 🙂
Blair Paterson says:
11 January, 2020 at 2:55 pm
I know the reason the Scottish lords voted for the union was because they were bribed but surely it must have been plain to see that the number of MPs that Scotland would be allowed compared to England it was not an equal Union and never would be it is a farce we have been treated like a defeated nation not a partner as for the the house slaves well as I said I’ve got a little list ???
That’s the point Blair, and probably the reason WHY we have a Union. Scotland could be defeated militarily, Scotland’s land could be occupied, Scotland’s “nobility” could be bribed, bought, coerced or killed, but it did them no good because Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, the Popular Sovereignty of the people, was indefatigable. Scotland could be taken, but never held. Remember Scotland’s heraldic Unicorn? It’s like pieces in a jigsaw.
The Union of Equals was Westminster’s essential “workaround”, a lie, a trick, a deception, backed by defiant threat of open warfare or pillory and barbaric execution for treason towards anybody who dared opposed it, – but whichever way they tried, they could not rewrite or overrule Scotland’s Sovereignty. It was beyond their jurisdiction then, and it’s beyond their jurisdiction now.
Pity the SNP don’t grasp the concept, and choose to believe the generations of “British” indoctrination instead. Turning their face away from Scotland’s choice to Remain in Europe should properly have been grounds for impeachment. Consequently we live in a paradox… a Sovereign Nation hoodwinked into kneeling before the word of it’s “inferior” and does it’s bidding, hands over it’s resources without complaint, and rolls over time and time again however unjust or unfair the outrage du jour happens to be.
It is utterly pathetic…. and it’s unconstitutional, which should be the biggest boldest word in our Independence minded vocabulary.
STV news going with the oragnisers figures of 80,000 at the AUOB today. A remarkable turn out considering the weather.
I was there today …think there were more than 80,000 folk there…it took almost three hours from the start of the March for the last of the marchers to reach Union St with twelve abreast at least with no gaps.
Well done to all who made the effort to march today. Quite a turn out in very horrible weather.
What always gets me is how nice all the folk are on the independence marches.
Soaked through sore feet but glad I made the effort.
Nice to be part of something that annoys the enemy.
Was not at the March today due to ill health, but watched it on the TV via Chrome cast and the AUOB Live stream – it’s just like it was live TV!
Anyhow, it was very impressive to see the huge numbers, the more so due to the relentless rain. My guess is that the weather would have revealed any waning in Independence resolve, but not a bit of it!
In place of the rally at Glasgow Green, the AUOB staged a Press Conference afterwards featuring Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan, among other notable and excellent speakers, including two from Wales and one from Northern Ireland. By their comments each of them offered uplifting and encouraging words to complement the inspiring sight of the marchers themselves.
Overall, there seemed to be a distinctly upbeat tone to the day with an injection of sober confidence which I found both surprising and delightful.
But what really intrigued me was the announcement of the Digital Covenant, a non-party political project over 12 months, using blockchain, to accurately and securely measure support for Scottish Independence.
It is now pretty obvious that England’s abusive Colonial-style relationship with the rest of the UK has no future. That much is clear, with only the timeframe still to be determined.
Here’s hoping it won’t be too long.
Amazing day in the weeg, soakin, soakin soakin, hotel room looking like a laundry. Well done all. Nice One.
manandboy
I have absolutely no idea what this ‘blockchain’ thing is all about, but it sounds like quite a wait for it to be implemented (12 months?).
I’m hoping there is an earlier ‘solution’ to our problem, but anything should be considered!
Praise and a big thank you to all who participated in the AUOB march in Glesga.
How about court cases, not only to assert Scotland’s sovereignty but to give more publicity to the cause – like a courtroom version of an AUOB march?
@ MBC 3.57 – thx for the info. It does puzzle me how he gets the votes but, if there are housing estates squeezed in then that would explain some Labour voters. It does look like a very cobbled together constituency.
Well done everyone who braved the march. It is remarkable that, in spite of the last minute organisation an the bad weather so many turned out. Inspiring too that there was a press conference afterwards. Will go and listen.
Unfortunately I was unable to attend this time, but was delighted when watching, just how many did attend.
Diana still sticking it up the Royals, even from her grave.
She was popped so the King of our country did not have a potential coloured step brother/sister.
The DNA samples will have been compared years ago,must cost a fortune keeping the lid on it.
There is still more to come, lets just get rid of them, the whole lot.
Managed that without a swear word, those high blood pressure tabs must be kicking in
Been back for about an hour now – nearly dry. Good fun though and everyone on the train was joking about being soaked so we all thought it was worth it.
The usual miserable bunch of Unionists trying to look big and impressive but just looked sad and miserable. Imagine getting that wet for nothing really.
As one person near me shouted – ‘ye’ll be stau’ning there fir a while yet lads’.
Worth doing, and I hear there were about 80,000 of us so it was a decent show especially given the weather.
Glad to be home and dry and feeing sorry for anyone living rough in this weather.
Definitely 80,000, probably a sizable number more. The insignificant Union flag brigade at the Union/Argyle/Jamaica junction were there for their sado-masochistic humiliation hit, as per usual – no other explanation makes sense. And the marchers just kept on coming through the pishing rain, laughing their heads off at them! An unbelievably brilliant day!
@ Albawoman.
Tend to agree ‘re numbers, but we were only about 100 yards of the lead , so difficult to tell. We left at the gates to Glasgow green since there was no rally, we came back via George square and we could see the March still coming down union street.
For those drying out.
A wee treat.
https://twitter.com/atulkasbekar/status/1215128694584270849
AUOB march got approx 5 secs on the teatime UK BBC news.
BBC1 Scotland (surprisingly) led the news with the story at teatime.
Channel 4 news: no mention of Scotland whatsoever.
BBC website story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51067690
“Organisers estimated that about 80,000 people attended”.
“Ms Sturgeon has never attended an AUOB march”.
STV News: “An estimated 80,000…”
I’m inclined to describe the weather today as kinda driech!
Not long home but even with today’s weather our local YES group ferried two full coaches through to the march.
Jumping in the sea on new year’s day was a shrewd training move for acclimatising myself for today’s march in weegieland.
Soaked to the skin and exhausted as haven’t stopped since 7am.
Well done all those that attended, numbers looked comparative to the other two marches in Glasgow. Motorway was flooded in places and high winds for the journey through.
Chopper in the air for hours, no doubt with camera but I guess we’ll never see the footage which I am sure would have shown a constant stream of folk from Kelvingrove to Glasgow Green.
For those that couldn’t make it due to weather, work, illness, or financial restrictions, we were marching for you too.
Talking of moving the goal posts, I note that AUOB aren’t adverse to moving goal posts either.
The march was supposed to be a march for independence.
On Facebook today, AUOB have been posting that the march was about having the right to choose whether to have a referendum or not.
These are two MAJORLY different things.
Willie 43% of Northern Ireland voters voted for the DUP and UUP at the general election last month, 38% for Sinn Fein and the SDLP.
The Northern Ireland Assembly has just been restored based on powersharing between the DUP and Sinn Fein as per the Good Friday Agreement, there is still no majority for a United Ireland in the province
Home about an hour ago, and just like others, trying to dry out.
well done to all of the marchers, and the folks on the motorway flyover with their flags, it was a great sight.
It was a wonderful atmosphere as usual. Daft manky jaiket with a dwindling band of brothers, laughed at as usual.
Don’t feel bad those of you who were not there today, we walked for all of you.
A special wee shout out for the yessers from Arran, who couldnae get there as the ferry was off. Had their ain wee demo for a’ that.
80 000 may indeed have marched in Glasgow today for indyref2 and independence but
194 779 Glaswegians voted Yes to independence in 2014 so it does not really suggest any change in Yes support
LOL @ Fudrick with his stats re. Glasgow
Mankyshirt and his mates could only muster a few dozen at best today as far as I could see, one wonders in HYUFD logic terms what that suggests of the unionist vote…
Eternal credit to today’s marchers. Keep the pressure on. English nationalists will ultimately kill off their so-called united kingdom but we should all help them out in the process.
HYUFD says:
11 January, 2020 at 7:37 pm
80 000 may indeed have marched in Glasgow today for indyref2 and independence but
194 779 Glaswegians voted Yes to independence in 2014 so it does not really suggest any change in Yes support
And 169,347 voted No in Glasgow, whereas the counter BritNat demonstration today numbered less than 50. So, using your logic, it does not really suggest that support for the union has remained solid, does it?
HYFUD
– a statistical moron. No wonder his own countrymen won’t vote him into any office!
mist001
Never miss a chance to invent schisms in the movement, do you?
Pathetic!
admiral It was a pro independence march, not a pro Union one.
Glasgow voted Yes in 2014 anyway despite No’s overall victory across Scotland, had you got 80,000 marching for independence in No voting Edinburgh or Aberdeen it might have made more impact
I’ve done a bit of horse whispering in the past so had a word with several of the buckaroos standing next to the holocaust denier and his buddies.
They telt me they were embarrassed to fuck to be seen next tae those roasters and had protested by squeezing out a load of road chutneys around them and stuck a wee union flag on wan.
Proof!
https://twitter.com/JimLovesLemons/status/1216002047344029704
@ Fudrick
Lat Edinburgh march turnout … Oh
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17950552.history-made-200-000-show-support-auob-edinburgh-march/
England’s love of Torydum, i.e. sanitised fascism, is due to a lack of political awareness of the British Establishment’s true nature. The same applies to the philosophical foundations of British Conservatism.
https://www.cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal/article/view/160/269
HYUFD says:
11 January, 2020 at 8:17 pm
admiral It was a pro independence march, not a pro Union one.
HYUFD – and there was, as there is at every pro independence march, a counter demonstration by BritNats who support the union. You’re in denial if you don’t recognise this. Any BritNat is free to turn up, if they feel that strongly about it.
BTW, why don’t the BritNats organise their own march, there’s really nothing to stop them?
Todays complainers about Independence and marches are
People who don’t live in Scotland
Rangers supporters, and there are becoming less of them as they wise up
Badly informed sectarian bigots
English settlers who still hope for an Empire revival
So when you total up the relevant voters for Independence which we now know to include any Labour support that’s left, 16-17 year olds and our EU citizens it looks like a big win for democracy at last
If you’re in the first group don’t worry we’re going to get Independence done
@admiral 8:37pm
Manky Jaiket posted a video online begging British Nationalists to turn up in a show of strength in support of their Union then moaned that they don’t seem to care enough
Dr. Jim is a racist, separatist bigot. Not ehow he highlights ‘people who don’t live in Scotland’?
For a start, that includes the very person who set up and runs this board, so why is Dr. Jim posting on it? Why dfoesn’t he fuck off to some board run by someone who lives in Scotland?
I currently live in France. I was born in Simpsons Memorial Hospital, Christened in the Bristo Memorial Church, Edinburgh and had lived all my days in Scotland until I met my wife. According to Dr.Jim, if a person leaves Scotland, then they are no longer Scottish, they have forfeited that right of birth.
Can you imagine if a bigot like him got their hands on power in an independent Scotland?
Fucking arse.
Hey HYFUD and the Yoon minority,we had a huge march through Glasgow today and your tiny unionist support numbered around 30 including marshals
You need to come to terms that the yoon empire is over and you can read in the New York times about how a post imperial England can be a better country.
It was a brilliant day.
The stv figure of 80,000 is a huge underestimate of the marchers today.
@ sassenach
I didn’t invent anything, it was there in black and white on their FB post. No use in me posting a screengrab though, you’d say that I doctored it myself.
And here’s a question to AUOB and it’s supporters to which I have NEVER recieved a reply:
What has happened to Manny Singh? This time last year, he was the poster boy for AUOB, now he’s nowhere to be seen.
What’s the story? Where is he? Was he chased out because he’s of Indian heritage? Maybe Dr.Jim was behind it? That last bit wouldn’t surprise me actually but seriously, where is Manny Singh?
@Dan.
We came across it pretty quickly at the front of the march, It would probably have been the most photographed horse turd in history if the rain wasn’t so heavy, but its on Facebook now, saved for posterity.
Mist001
Me things you protest too much. You appear to want the entire world to determine Scotland’s future, so long as they claim a Scottish identity. That’s not the way liberal constitutionalism works, yet you come on WOS and disrespect seasoned contributors.
I think it is you who is the arse, frankly.
Dr Jim 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties at the general election last month, little changed from the 55% who voted No in 2014, despite Brexit
Iain2 The New York Times is a left liberal anti Trump, anti Brexit paper, of course it backs Scottish independence post Brexit as it matches its ideological agenda
@ Fudrick
Yawn, a GE uses Westminster’s gerrymandered voter franchise thus doesn’t allow 16&17 year olds or most EU Nationals a vote.
Lol, just ignore the sad pathetic BritNat assholes.
HYUFD
It is a well known fact in political science, that the general public is not capable of controlling the moral character of party politics. Particularly in an age of mass communication and propaganda. You’d be aware of that fact if you had a genuine appreciation of democracy, rather than trusting your own personal beliefs and cultural chauvinism.
You can get this right up yourself, as well, ToryBoy.
Bridging the Mythical Divide:
Political Economy and Cultural Studies Approaches to the
Analysis of the Media.
https://www.corwin.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/19334_02_Devereux_Ch_01.pdf
ToryBoy does not appear to be a fan of liberal constitutionalism. Well, he’s a Tory ToryBoy.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/what-are-the-implications-of-political-ignorance-for-democracy/
@ CameronB Brodie
You do realise that you’re defending a clown, don’t you?
Dr.Jim reckons that if you don’t live in Scotland, then Scottish affairs don’t concern you.
It’s not a giant leap to apply that thinking to immigrants, of which Sturgeon and the SNP rightfully approve. Dr. Jims logic (if it can be called that) would go like this:
‘You’re not Scottish. Scottish affairs don’t concern you.’
I can spot racist fucking bigots a mile off. If you defend one, you defend them all.
Pick a side by all means, but choose wisely. I’m fucking watching.
Mist001
Stop trying to misrepresent Dr. Jim.
HYUFD – you are a dummy. The article in the New York Times was written by David Edgerton, Professor of history at King’s College, London. Pretty good and thoughtful article about the impending collapse of the most murderous Empire in history, but he couldn’t resist his bit of “little Englander” when it came to Scotland. Do you think Meghan has been pushed too far by racism? Just wondered if you have an opinion that would make any reasoned sense.
It’s HYUFD and his statistics for idiots course. More people voted Yes in 2014 than have ever voted SNP in any election. I suggest you try reading about statistics as just making stuff up doesn’t count.
More people voted against Boris Johnston’s Brexit deal than voted for it, presumably that negates the current deal using your statistical system.
Mist01
Brexit is essentially the articulation of English rascism. Yet you try to misrepresent Dr. as a racist. That’s symbolic violence and a classical technique of the colonialist.
Prove me wrong.
Can’t get no learning: the Brexit fiasco through the lens of policy learning
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13501763.2019.1667415
Political ignorance conjoined with political arrogance, the notion you have the right more than others by a self bestowed virtue created by yourself
The disease of the Imperialist
The empire’s days have passed it is time for Scotland to regain its place among the nations of the world.
We will rejoin the European Union and prosper.
England will have to sort itself out, this will take time and then go cap in hand and beg for readmittance to the European Union.
They may well be admitted but that would be up to all the members and who knows, what goes around comes around.
Maybe time to think before acting rashly.
Iain 2 @ 21:01,
Yes, I also had the distinct impression that 80k was rather an underestimate. People were fairly closely packed, especially for the earlier part.
You can tell when there’s been a success for indy – FUD and his like pop up on here like mushrooms just to rain on our parade. Oh – wait a mo – we had real rain on the parade, and I didn’t see a single person who seemed at all bothered about it. Au contraire – what a happy outing – just as we appreciate appearances of the FUD-O-Meter to expose the current level of BritNat concern. Which is high.
sassenach @ 20:05,
Both observations right on the button. The weary distortions of the fellow-traveller of Manky Jaicket are one thing, but the concern trolling of the Alexander Bros Circus is particularly irritating because it tries desperately on every possible occasion to make much of essentially nothing against the SG, SNP and anyone else thought to be effective within the indy movement. Now, let me think, who else does that kind of thing whom we know…?
Oh, and has everyone who sadly couldn’t make it today seen a pic yet (on the internet or wherever) of the Union Turd…?
England I think will have a problem rejoining the EU, not because they might want to or not but because when a mistake is made of such magnitude as England have just made that mistake becomes hard to admit so going back on their angry exit might create in their minds the idea that the world would call them stupid for doing it in the first place and they would appear silly or weak
Even now in Scotland many NO voters have reviewed and revised their decision to YES but that can’t have been easy for some as it’s always difficult to admit you did the wrong thing
Pride is a mighty powerful force to put behind you
I think that was part of the anti peoples vote plan to make people feel stupid so their anger and pride wouldn’t allow them to reconsider and surrender to the truth
“It’s shite being Scottish
Some hate the English.I do’nt. They are just wankers
We are colonised …. by wankers,
AaaaaaaaaARGH”
@Robert J, Sutherland 10:04pm
I’m only minutes away from Glasgow so it’s an easy walk for me, it’s a shame it was so rainy but not cold so that was fine but the Manky Jaiket crew are becoming more and more dispirited by the whole affair, they just cannae seem tae get the staff
I think we’re only a couple of weeks to go till movement begins and the noise starts, it’s gonnae be a show
@Famous 15 10:10pm
That was a great line from that movie, summed up in two sentences
Dr Jim @ 22:16,
I think even they are beginning to realise the game’s up, and they are history now.
Imagine standing in the rain watching a procession of happy people go by that’s about 5000 times larger than your sour wee mob, and doing it for hour after hour. I almost feel sorry for them. =grin=
http://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18153934.happened-one-banner-independence-march-glasgow/
good coverage of the AUOB march on this paper’s website.
@RJS.
I don’t think we should insult the horse by calling it a union horse turd. As we passed
Oops. Posted in error.
To continue, as we passed union jaicket and friends, the horse’s were nodding along in time to ‘ you can stick your f#cking union up yer erse ‘( sung to you canny chuck yer granny off a bus ). First march I’ve heard that on.
No insult to horses intended, I assure you.
But it is a wonderful metaphor, all the sawe.
Someone commented “Murdo’s been here”.
No insult to Murdos in general intended either.
=grin=
Bill McLean Given the vast majority of academics, especially humanities academics, are left liberals that hardly changes the point. Scotland of course has nothing to do with the Empire, the US won independence after Scotland had joined the Union, Canada, Australia, much of Africa and the Middle East, India, Australia and New Zealand were all colinsed after Scotland had joined the Union.
me @ 22:40,
“all the same”. Duh.
Golfnut @ 22:39,
We may possibly be talking at cross-purposes now. I was referring to one example of the natural byproduct of those fine police mounts, onto which someone had ingeniously planted a wee Union Jack. Many photos were taken!
HYUFD @ 22:45,
Yes, I know, and we here are still colinsed, even this evening.
Scots were up to their neck in colonising, whether as civil servants for the British Empire, British military officers, explorers, merchants etc. It was an age of Empire most western powers were involved in and Scots were at its heart.
As for Meghan she has had houses, staff, flights on the royal payroll so no racism there if she wants to be financially independent with Harry that is up to them
The FUD-O-Meter is now at 17 and still rising. Assuredly another very bad day for the failing Union.
Even the royals are beginning to quit.
Must 100 @ 9.39
Well I’m fucking picking….. And it’s Dr Jim every time and twice On a Sunday… So don’t be makin many plans ye’ll have a shit load of watching tae do…..
Liz g :55,
I think that judging by his moniker, he must really live in Germany and not La Belle France.
(Look it up, peeps, look it up. =wink=)
@ RJS.
Lol
The great thing about today’s march is being part of a big unstoppable movement.
At last we are going to win freedom for Scotland and unchain ourselves from the evil empire.
I saw in today’s march a vision of a new Scotland that is more tolerant and liberal than the insular brittish state we can be so much more than a grouse moor for toffs.
@ Liz g
Good. That’s two of you outed. Supporting a racist bigot makes you what………..?
Why are you and he even posting here? Dr.Jim has made it clear that if you don’t live in Scotland, then Scottish affairs are no concern of yours and yet…..and yet……the man who set up, runs and PROVIDES this forum doesn’t live in Scotland either.
And yet….here you are.
Why?
Let’s say it again for HYFUD but change is coming.
It’s coming in Ireland. The unionists are now in the minority, the majority have voted to stay in the EU and the game is up.
With the restoration of Stormont only days before the U.K. exits the EU you know the game is up. A United Ireland beckons and in due course an independent Scotland too.
The UKs day’s are numbered.
@ Effijy – shame you landed in hospital, I trust you were well looked after and feeling better.
I skipped the march too because it’s a 10 hr round trip and the winter weather looked dreich. I will get to Arbroath though and Edinburgh and possibly some others. I’m still expecting a referendum later in the year which would make Edinburgh a must.
I do appreciate the efforts of those who made it.
Mist001
Dr. Jim has made no such claim, he has mearly corrected you misunderstanding about who can and can not vote in constitutional plebiscites.
Prove me wrong.
@Capella –
Arbroath is a definite.
😉
@ Ian Brotherhood – because – as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself…. 🙂
@Capella –
Right now I’m listening to R5Live, and Edwina Currie is doing her thing.
You’ve probably seen this, but I’ll post it all same…
How do we deal ‘reasonably’ with such people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZ_On7Z6CQ
Did we witness the four horsemen of the Union Apocalypse today. Or were Police Scotland in Glasgow just shitting us?
Mist 001 @ 11.14
Right back at ya Misty
Cameron B Brodie @ 11.32
Unless yer bored why are ye bothering so that nonsense ?
Thank You Capella,
I am fine now and I’d like to say that got taken after just a few minutes.
The nurses and doctors were really nice, very professional.
I had an anaesthetic injection and was released subject to having someone pick me us
And stay with me overnight.
Thanks to all concerned and I include the SNP government for running the best NHS Service
In the UK despite the Westminster government and the media trying to stifle them.
Anyone else like me wonder why Labour and Tory NHS bodies don’t ask why we out perform them every year and try to adopt our practices?
The royal family falling apart is just another sign that the so-called united kingdom is also falling apart. Great fun watching it all fall about greetin-faced English nationalists.
Willie Nope, wrong on both counts. In Northern Ireland 43% voted for Unionist parties last month, only 38% for Nationalist parties. In Scotland 54% voted for Unionist parties and only 46% for Nationalist parties.
British politics is still very much steeped in class snobbery. Much of the electorate are grossly under-educated and consider a posh accent to be a sign of intalectual competance and moral probity. That means inappropriate individuals often find themselves in positions of authority they are simply not intellectually or morally suited to fill (see the Secretary of State of Scotland, for example).
Can adulterers be considered moral characters (see Edwina Curry)?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/336977/2902536_CSPL_PublicPoliticalEthics_acc.pdf
Och,
HYUFD
and
Mist001
The $hit you two come away with – you should be embarrassed by your input here.
Have you no pride in your country? HYFUD – you’re excused because you don’t know any better. And, onnyhoo, you’re from dan sarf.
Liz g
Mist might be full of shite but it’s important to highlight he is up to no good.
Cameron B Brodie @ 12.19
True….. Well if ye can be arsed… Fill yer boots 🙂
HYUFD
It might be an error to consider Labour wholly unionist. The position is increasingly nuanced and recent polls suggest 30% of their voters are sympathetic to independence.
Certainly people like Murray are die hard unionists but as with Brexit, Labour occupy many positions on the fence.
These are interesting times
@ Ian Brotherhood – Like Edwina, I never liked Jimmy Savile. Also, I never liked Edwina Currie. She once told a black woman from an African country that it was their corrupt government that was the problem. African woman snapped right back “It’s not our government that’s corrupt”.
I listened to Great Lives yesterday and Ken Clarke was introducing us to Charlie Parker. Old Ken, old style One Nation Tory, has always been a jazz fan, a smoker, wears suede hush puppies and loves Europe. A million miles away from the bunch of xenophobic thieves currently gracing the green benches.
Tory Britain is a foreign country, a quite despicable one in many ways. Apparently, Meghan Markle has been the object of much racist abuse.
There are still many decent people there. But they are drowned out by the arrogant loudmouths on the media.
BTW the only way to deal with those rude, arrogant people is to make sure they are never in a position to interfere with your plans. For Scotland that means complete independence and freedom to choose. Soon 🙂
@ Effijy – glad to hear you were well looked after. I always find NHS staff excellent and let them know it. They must be so fed up of the constant whining on the media.
HandandShrimp Labour’s official position is to oppose Scottish independence, even if Leonard considered a platform of a Federal UK as the price for agreeing any indyref2 (which their executive in the end rejected).
Of course there are even a few SNP voters who oppose independence too
I have a friend and she says that being white and English should mean that you should feel sad for all the bad things your country has done to the world so you should paint some blue on your face to signify that you’re blue, then you should paint some red on your face to show embarrassement, then your face would be red white and blue to prove you’re not a British Nationalist
Them’s the jokes folks, not my joke, that’s Sarah Pascoe, good comic if you ever see her name up go and see her
HYUFD
For the last time, Scotland can seek constitutional change without asking for permission from Westminster. Though as you’re a ToryBoy, I doubt you respect international law.
The federal solution to Britain’s lack of constitutional justice, has been floated since the end of WW2. Do you really see England accepting the removal of the monarch as head of state? If so, give up the jazz cabbage would be my advice.
Amazingly there are SNP voters who may not yet support Independence but that’s a real testament as to how well the SNP run the country, I actually know a Tory who always votes SNP at every election he just isn’t sure of Independence yet because he’s a bit of a bigot, brought up in Lenzie you see and those folk had slightly different notions of themselves in the past, but it’s all change now that the new order of 1930s Toryism is here terrifying the life out of them
heard a podcast on indylive radio, with robin macalpine. although i think the shine has left robin in recent times, he said a few things agree with
summary
1. bojo will continue to refuse s30
2. we will mount a legal challenge, even for good publicity reasons, but we will lose.
3, It is now time for a campaign of civil disobedience.
so that makes a few people, including the rev, who are calling for us to step up operations.
robins real point was that it is for us, the grass roots to do this, not the snp. also there are risks in alienating our supporters when moving to this stage. to that end we should chose some respected individuals, preferably grey haired, to front the civil disobedience, direct it and to urge our followers to comply.
what do you think?
HYUFD
This is what you are trying to legitimise, ToryBoy, and is partly why I doubt your commitment to liberal constitutionalism.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0214-5
Cameron B Brodie A Mori survey a few years ago actually showed more British voters had a positive attitude to immigration thsn voters in Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, Australia, Japan and even Sweden
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/global-study-shows-many-around-world-uncomfortable-levels-immigration
Cameron B Brodie A Mori survey a few years ago actually showed more British voters had a positive attitude to immigration than voters in Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, Australia, Japan and even Sweden
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/global-study-shows-many-around-world-uncomfortable-levels-immigration
Some of the best run countries in the world from the Netherlands, to Norway, Denmark and Japan have constitutional monarchies too
Stop trying to justify English cultural prejudice, ToryBoy.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2019.1599134
Soaked to the skin but there was something in the air today and it was well worth the journey down. I don’t know, maybe it was the feeling of a prelude?
Special shout out to Soar Alba who were excellent and the joyous crowd. People don’t just make Glasgow – they make Scotland. https://twitter.com/dfscotland/status/1216023096467099650?s=21
Ha ha. Predictive text. Hail Alba.
As you’re a ToryBoy, it is highly probably that your personality is ccharacterised by right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation. As such, I doubtr your judgement is grounded in ethical reason.
Scottish nationalism is supportive of multiculturalism. English/British nationalism, not so much.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2019.1640890
All this ‘Royal’ shit *is* just that, pure deflectionary shite. Meanwhile ‘Andy Pandy puddin’ pie kissed the girls and made them cry’ is still a paedophile. Aye! There’s nothing like some good old fashioned smoke-n-mirrors. Even Lizzie’s in on the act now, going to hold a family brainstorming summit, apparently, to look at and discuss options for the couple.
Oh look! FFS! Somebody has shot all the squirrels.
No such thing as *British* voters, that’s like saying American voters when Texas is an entirely different world to California
Scotland England Ireland Wales all in geographical Britain but most entirely different sets of people who even speak different languages
Typical British Nationalist tactic attempting to lump different peoples together to fit a propagandised agenda of oneness
Gene Roddenberry was right, many different peoples co-operating together without any one nation dominating the other working together by choice not force or coercion
That’s the Independence of Federation not Federalism
Europe is a land mass like Britain is a land mass and no one country owns that just because there happens to be more people in one part of it
@Stoker 2:10 am
Did you know it costs the taxpayer over £100 million per yer to protect that family, does that not mean there are folk who actually don’t like them, so on top of their benefit payments, their rent direct payments, their pension credit, paid holidays and free motors they’re skinnin us alive while there are folk cannae afford cornflakes for their weans
I hope when we’re Independent they get sanctioned permanently
In other news for the exceptionally gullible. The BBC in Scotland text service reporting in the wee small hours that the Labour Party in Scotland (i refuse to give them the false title they use) are to shelve the plans to hold a “special conference” on their indy referendum stance. Well surprise surprise eh!
Instead, they will now hold a “review” into their recent general election performance where they lost all but one seat in Scotland. And the “review” will be conducted by former party chair, Linda Stewart, and academic professor David Conway no less.
Now call me cynical but why is there a need to carry out a “review” to officially establish the cause that every dog on the street knows? That if you lie to the public and side with Unionist liars to destroy the hopes and dreams of a country then the public are going to lose all faith in you and seek more credible leadership.
It also doesn’t help any when you continuously paint yourselves as Tory bedwarmers at every opportunity and also abandon any principles you thought you once had.
Anyone falling for this latest Red Tory charade and still willing to give them their vote and support is seriously beyond help and reason. Monica Lennon and Co should be extremely ashamed of themselves for playing their parts in this latest Unionist plot against Scotland.
Scotland will *never* forget.
@ Dr Jim on 12 January, 2020 at 2:26 am
Always have been and always will be anti-monarchy/royalty etc. Just surprised that your figure seems a bit on the low side. I’d have thought they cost a lot more than that. But yeah, bin the lot of them. There are far greater priorities out there.
Stoked @ 2.44
Don’t want to be a subject with duties either!
I want to be a citizen with rights!
But here’s the thing?
If Scotland dumps it’s monarchy (which it’s perfectly entitled to do as a democracy) while the Treaty of Union is still in place!!!
Then the English Crown is ruling Scotland… And we did what the armies of England couldn’t!
Currently the Declaration of Arbroath is still intact,because the Crown of Scotland is still independent of the English Crown ( I know ) But dump the monarchy while we are in the Westminster system and we would be being ruled by the English Crown.
Be careful what ye wish for is the lesson here!
End the Treaty of Union before ye even think of lookin at the Crown of Scotland…. Don’t vote the Declaration of Arbroath out of existence.
IMHO there’s a reason Alex Salmond said ” we’re keeping the Queen ” although that’s still no good reason to insist that the Monarch of Scotland do her fucking Job..
Stoker @ 2.44
Sorry …. Auto correct is a bam…
If course I ment STOKER apologies 🙂
Big puff piece for Morningside resident Union Jacket Murray in Scotland on Sunday this morning.
I live in Extremadura (far west Spain). I was eligible to vote, and did vote (remain), in the EU referendum.
I was not eligible to vote in Indy 1 in 2014 as the Scottish government decided any Scot who lived overseas would not get a vote. Which is a shame I think.
However even if I had been allowed, as I had lived in England (due to my husband working there) prior to moving abroad, I would still have been unable to vote in 2014.
However my, born and bred Scottish, children who had to go to England for work, are also denied an Indy vote. An Independent Scotland would hopefully provide work for them in the future, so I think their vote would be beneficial.
Anyway I don’t therefore understand how mist100 says he got to vote whilst living in France?
OT
watching al jazeera today re Taiwan vote count. They take each one out ballot box, open, hold up to cameras and then pile on a table.
Now – what a good idea for indyref2. Although, this probably wouldn’t address the rigged postal system, so we would still need to get over 55% of votes on the day to swing that little con.
This post is a big thanks to everyone from English Scots for Yes who marched AUOB yesterday, especially to those who flew equal-sized St George’s Crosses and Saltires. Thanks to ESfY Dumfries & Galloway for being in Gibson Street. And a big shout out to the person with the very large St George’s Cross and Saltire who moved across Union Street to wave both flags in front of the UK nationalists.
exile
Well said. It isn’t English people who are the problem, they don’t all support British nationalism.
English culture simply hasn’t been allowed to evolve much since England ruled the waves, and people of colour were grateful for small mercies. Westminster culture is structurally racist and Brexit undoes much of the hard work of decades to address racism in Britain.. This is what Scotland needs to defend itself from.
Here’s what the British Sociological Associationy has to say on the matter.
https://www.britsoc.co.uk/about/latest-news/2019/march/the-sugar-at-the-bottom-of-the-english-cup-of-tea-centering-race-critical-studies-in-brexit-britain/
I wonder whether Megan Markle, a woman of independent means, with great looks and considerable success in her career, who got engaged to a prince, and committed herself and her child to a lifestyle of certain privilege offset by certain sacrifice, only to find the dream sullied by a lack of acceptance and prejudice. She stood her ground, kept her integrity, and withdrew from the abuse, keeping her family and her prince intact.
I wonder whether Ms Markle might have some words of advice or encouragement for Ms Scotland, who has endured 300 years in a fiercely abusive relationship, which plunders her wealth, maligns her integrity, belittles her opinions, denies her self expression, calls her ugly and stupid, doesn’t allow her to speak with friends, nor offer her any choice about anything, but for all the abuse, chooses to remain locked in misery.
For that, if nothing else, I salute you Megan Markle. Scotland could do worse than follow your example.
R Scotland newspaper review notes that The National has 12 pages of photos from the march. David Clegg still pretending it’s not possible to estimate numbers. However, taking the organisers estimate isn’t a good idea, he alleges.
No shit, social harmony in Britain is fucked thanks to Brexit.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/10/09/race-class-and-brexit-how-did-we-get-here/
@HUYFD
No one in Scotland denies individual Scots involvement in the various Imperial and imperialist ‘trades’ post 1707. The bankers Jardine Matheson’s state sanctioned drug pushing is a notorious example. Scotland as a country, having no legislature, was not ‘collectively’ involved however.
The British empire began as the English empire and except in the Scots imagination, remained so. Its exact point of origin is 1600 with the creation of the East India company. The EIC is still idealized by some as the model for any post Brexit arrangement.
Wiki link if you do not have the literature to hand.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
The slave trade is a messy affair. Without African states systematically enslaving their neighbours and that opportunity being commercially exploited by Arab traders, Omanis especially, the thing would not have got off the ground.
The mistreatment of slaves was inherited from both African and Arab custom and replicated by Europeans. The notion that Black people had no soul was commonly held by Arab traders.
If you read the works of Sir Richard Burton the explorer the bitter flavour of ‘the trade’ is to be had in ladlefuls.
Jack says no Scottish Independence referendum again ever, ever no matter what. So Nicola and SNP what next ?
Well, there you have it from the Sdc of Xtate for Scotland being interviewed on Brewer. Even if the SNP win election in 2021, there will be no Section 30.
It is becoming clear now our representatives have to have a different approach.
Hello fellow prisoners,
Union Jack on Brewer just now telling us captives that we will never have the numbers for an Indyref2.
It’s all reserved to Westminster dontcha know.
Democracy, eh?
Not for the Scots!
If you support Brexit, it is more than likely that you are a racist. So you can fuck right off as far as I’m concerned. Away and live in England, you’ll probably be much happier there. And so will all decent people living in Scotland.
Reluctant Nationalist
‘Mon then, refute this with your PhD in Psychology and shit.
https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/20173/1/Racism%20Crisis%20Brexit.pdf
@ Capella.
Well some of the police at the March reckoned nearer 150k, but those were just private conversations. It felt huge, I say that because we were jam packed, it didn’t really start to stretch out until nearer Glasgow green. We were near the front so really difficult for us to judge. We left after about 20 mins when we got to Glasgow green, headed for Greggs at George Sq, we could see the March still coming down to Union street.
A C Bruce: 10.13
Did Manky Jaicket also mention that one of he’s female cohorts ran out an punched one of the pipe band stewards in the face?
Can’t say any more just now as there is likely to be legal action but spoke to the victim at the Peoples Palace and she is raging!
@ Golfnut – thx for that, sounds impressive. I wonder if there are professional crowd counters out there who could be hired for the day. People have posted various methods of crowd counting. But unionist media will never accept the figures anyway – unless about 200 turn up. That would be in massive type on the front page, right under the “BLOW FOR STURGEON” headline!
Update on the First Minister’s Independence Petition
Running at 515,555.
520,000 would be a nice round number!
Next Glasgow AUOB in better weather will exceed 100,000.
Time for Nicola to address that one!
When Boris kicks Scotland out of Europe at the end of the month
Holyrood should continue to fly the EU flag and remove the butcher’s apron.
Put a blown up copy of the Declaration of Arbroath outside to witness it and invite the public
To view the highlighted area about their own Sovereignty and of course a joyful tune from a piper
To celebrate.
I’d be happy to make myself available as neutral member of the public and explain to the media why
We made it clear at Indy ref 1 and Brexit that Scots are European, we are not fascist like the London
Tories and we will not be government by Boris the Serial Liar and adulterer who made it clear he hates Scots, would put us in a ghetto and eliminate us.
He also stated on TV that he would always invest a £1 in England before Scotland.
We would rather be found dead in a ditch than live under a fascist dictator.
Didn’t a recent Tory Prime Minister say he would be found dead in a ditch than still be in the EU after
October 2019?
Will Boris honour his pledge to give the NHS £350,000,000 per week when the UK leaves the EU?
Isn’t he the man that keeps repeating how a Minister in the Scottish Parliament said he thought the Indy ref might be once in a generation so if he said it must be held on the statute books?
So Boris your body is lifeless in a ditch you will made Scotland a ghetto and you will eliminate our nation and you are writing out that cheque for the NHS?
Lying Corrupt Facist Adulterer Dictators are Not for us!
The Declaration of Arbroath was sealed in 1320 by eight earls and forty barons. Maybe it’s time for the rest of us to add our signature. A display copy with a signature book could be installed in every library. An online copy ditto.
So Alistair Jack’s rationale is that even if everyone in Scotland except himself wanted an indyref there won’t be one because the result of 2014 must be respected.
One of the good things to emerge from recent years in Scotland is that I very rarely watch Council TV anymore. BBC never, ITV rarely, Channel 4 occasionally. I honestly don’t even miss it.
I got Netflix specifically to watch the Outlaw King. I later watched Black 47 too, and I warmed to Netflix, because neither of these productions would have seen the light of day on “British” TV, but nor was Netflix obviously “Rebel” TV. It just gave a neutral platform for the media, and you were free to watch and enjoy, or switch off in anger or disgust. I watched, enjoying the both the content and freedom to watch a program from the “other side’s” , my side, perspective.
Netflix also has foreign programs. I watched a Spanish film, the title I forget, about a Policeman pre Civil War that was excellent, and I started to watch more foreign films with subtitles; Nordic / Scandinavian Noir, some in subtitles, some in English but Nordic authors.
I found Stieg Larssen’s Girl with the Dragon Tattoo much better in actual Swedish with Noomi Rapace and Michael Nyqvist, than the Daniel Craig version… and I normally quite like Daniel Craig.
I’ve seen Michael Fasbender in a very good, if very fast, adaptation of Jo Nesbo’s The Snowman, which I’m intrigued to know if there’s a film or series in subtitled Norwegian… A film was too fast. I
French drama, Finnish drama, Australian drama… Suddenly I am rediscovering the pleasure of being entertained by good quality productions you can get really into, even when you have to read the subtitles at the bottom.
All those years wasted watching the dreadful stodge of UK or American cop dramas or soap operas which made the paint peel from the back of my eyeballs. Costume drama’s where the scripts are older and more threadbare than the costumes.
I honestly believe in my bones that once Scotland escapes this dreadful and stifling Union that Scotland will be in line for a tremendously uplifting “era”, like the 20’s after WW1, or the 50’s and 60’s after WW2… Our Scottish culture will flourish like a Spring awakening after the snow and ice has gone.
Lest’s get Scandinavians and Europeans all clamouring for A-l-b-a noir… Maybe Whisky Galore the Gaelic version just for starters…
We aren’t at the death of the Union, (well we are, but who cares about that auld shite), … we are at the dawn of something beautiful and uplifting… the REAL Scotland is coming back from the dead.
This quote from George Orwell’s 1984, might help some understand England’s cultural desire to turn the clock back on social progress.
The politics of nationalism and white racism in the UK
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1468-4446.12311
@ breeks.
Likewise Breeks. A whole new world, particularly the noir drama. You might also want to checkout Chinese, Korean and Malaysian .The very expressive stage theatre acting still very evident in their tv drama. Pakistan are make their first full feature film in Scotland with Scotland’s scenery central to the movie. Like you I look forward to the day Scottish drama is viewed around the world.
I can always tell when a march went well and they are such an uplifting friendly crowd it cheers you up for a month.
Oh yes.it went really well because HYFUD and Mist001 post with a desperate frequency of misrepresentation and nonsense. I wonder if they are paid? I wonder if they are real people?They know just enough to sound plausible but then they begin to overdo the verity like the Sun really which publishes a photo of a march in Glasgow on a different day and with different people.
Had an early night as was exhausted, but I see the Germinators continued to spread their attempts at divisive wares, but were duly dealt with in whack-a-mole style.
“Listen, and understand. That Germinators are out there. They can’t be bargained with. They can’t be reasoned with. They don’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.”
Meanwhile in more groundhog day news this old chestnut is resurrected…
“Labour leadership contender Rebecca Long-Bailey has said she would abolish the House of Lords if she succeeded in becoming prime minister.“
It appears the UK Govt have gone with the tried and tested method from March 2017 etc: call the SNP’s bluff, snubbing any indyref s30 request.
Also, seems likely the Referendums Bill will be blocked (or at least challenged and seriously delayed).
I expect the next few weeks will confirm that there never was any SNP Plan B to stop Brexit or deliver indyref2.
The question used to be: who else but the SNP?
If the SNP allow Brexit and also fail to deliver on indyref2, the question we MUST answer:
Who else / what else following the SNP’s complete failure to deliver on the fundamental constitutional manifesto mandates?
For those who are still clinging to the hope that Westminster will cooperate with Scotland, racist patriarchies don’t tend to dismantle themselves. Westminster can not be expected to voluntarily recognise the legal personality of Scotland, so Westminster can not be expecte4d to ever allow Scots access to their inalienable human rights.
Independence is never given, it is always taken.
https://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf
Shows how well the propaganda has worked when even politicians don’t know or understand that Britain isn’t a country
Rebecca Long Bailey when asked about *allowing* Scotland a referendum said “I don’t support Independence because I don’t want to see our *country* broken up, Buut Scotland must *feel* it should have democracy and they’ve got their own parliament”
What that statement is is an acceptance that constitutionaly Rebecca Long Bailey knows that a refusal to *allow* Scotland it’s own legal democratic choice whether to remain in the Union or not is legally unsustainable and shows Englands government (not a UK government) in the light of dictators and that can only end badly for whichever political party forms the English government
Oh and there’s one other policy Rebecca Long Bailey would pursue if she were elected Labour leader, she promised to abolish/reform the House of Lords……..Yaaawn
this is a great idea
Put a blown up copy of the Declaration of Arbroath outside to witness it and invite the public
permanently at both side of the entrance of the Scottish Parliament, at every council building at every court house, at every institution in the country etc etc
Anglo-American linguistic imperialism
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/mar/13/linguistic-imperialism-english-language-teaching
https://www.dawn.com/news/1028971
Scotland, as a country which has experienced the culturally negative effects of anglicization, one of the prime drivers of Unionism, ought not to be facilitating this species of neo-colonialism.
Does the SNP have an indigenous languages development policy?
I pose that question in anticipation of a look of dismay and perplexity on most faces.
And the bottom line, what English is all about
https://www.africason.com/2014/11/what-kwame-nkrumah-said-about-neo.html
Moroccan proverb. If you become grain, a chicken will eat you.
Real power cannot be given, it must be taken. Sovereignty is asserted. No court can judge for or against us on this matter, so talk of legal rulings is irrelevant. There is a treaty in place & we can withdraw from it. I didn’t make it to Glasgow yesterday, I had other matters to attend to, but if the reports of a march on this scale are correct, in mid-January, in the rain then the tipping point is coming. Maybe we are even past it. Either way, we just push on. The moment for the FM to act is here. We can truly win this time, things are simmering nicely. The boiling point is imminent. As Stu said the other day, we need to get in a fight.
And federalism ? No, such a settlement cannot be imposed from the ‘top’. It must be by consent from the ground up, if ever at all. Scotland can never be equated with a region of England. To accept such an arrangement, while other nations walk free, is to crawl on your belly like a whipped dog.
There, that’s better.
Isn’t it funny the amount of British Nationalists in Scotland who complain vehemently about not caring how much the numbers of Independence marchers are and how it’s all pointless yet they still go out of their way to complain about something they say they don’t care about
Maybe when they understand what Brexit means to bringing in young foreign footballers to Ibrox from the EU they’ll get the point, they should maybe read what the SFA have to say on it after they were told that football transfer business would all be done under a UK umbrella organisation based in England on a quota immigration system, meaning England gets first choice on availability, because well Scotland voted to be ruled over
Sir Keir and Long-Bailey. A knight and a double barrel surname. Sounds more like a Tory leadership contest.
having watched Gauleiter Jack on Brewer today it is becoming increasingly obvious that our colonial masters are terrified of Indyref2 as they know that they would lose.
Is it possible that their strategy is to test the patience of Scots to the point that some hotheads are provoked into resorting to violence
Either that or the dark forces at WM would embark on a aeries of false flag terrorist operations.
It is not as if they don’t have plenty of experience of such dark and devious strategies.
@ Famous15
Unlike you, I have an avatar next to my posts so there can be no doubt that I am a real person. The question is, why are you hiding? I’m not afraid to let people see who they’re talking to.
As for being paid, can you tell me who would pay me for posting on this forum? I’d appreciate that because I’d like to approach them for funding.
The reason that I sound ‘plausible’ is because I’m not a sycophant who dreams of a Scottish socialist republic. I don’t have my head stuck up my arse. I see things as they really are and say so and if it rocks the boat, I don’t really care.
So, that’s that out of the way, the next thing is what do we do about Scottish independence. Do we keep turning up here and saying what’s wrong with SNP strategy, how they should do this, they should do that, Westminster bad, etc, etc. You know, all the things that people repeat ad nauseum on here.
Has anybody in Scotland got the gumption to do something concrete about independence or is it all keyboard whinging?
I note that Sturgeon sent a ‘tweet’ (LOL!) to the march yesterday saying that she wished them all the best and that she was sorry she couldn’t be there. In otherwords, she’s fobbed you all off again because roughly translated, it says ‘If you think I’m going anywhere near you oiks especially in this kind of weather, you’ve got another think coming.’
But she has to at least be seen to be supporting the marches, even though it’s through gritted teeth.
Finally, yesterdays march is over. Apart from the mutual admiration and back slapping and ‘well done us’ going on today, what has the march actually achieved. Has it brought us that little bit closer to independence?
In a word, no.
And where is Manny Singh?
Ian Brotherhood says:
Right now I’m listening to R5Live, and Edwina Currie is doing her thing. You’ve probably seen this, but I’ll post it all same…
How do we deal ‘reasonably’ with such people?
isnt this the conversation we should be having today?
CameronB Brodie says:
This is what Scotland needs to defend itself from.
how?
Terry says:
I don’t know, maybe it was the feeling of a prelude?
to what?
Old Pete says:
Jack says no Scottish Independence referendum again ever, ever no matter what. So Nicola and SNP what next ?
do tell?
Bob Mack says:
It is becoming clear now our representatives have to have a different approach.
really? i dont think nicola can do much here, it is for the grass roots to make the next move
A C Bruce says:
Hello fellow prisoners,
It’s all reserved to Westminster dontcha know. Democracy, eh?
Not for the Scots!
tell us something we dont know. so now what?
Capella says:
right under the “BLOW FOR STURGEON” headline!
again!
Effijy says:
Lying Corrupt Facist Adulterer Dictators are Not for us!
how do we stop it?
kapelmeister says:
there won’t be indyref2 because the result of 2014 must be respected.
really? so thats it then? aye?
Breeks says:
the REAL Scotland is coming back from the dead.
how?
Golfnut says:
I look forward to the day Scottish drama is viewed around the world.
if wishes were…………
Dan says:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has said she would abolish the House of Lords….
lab could do that today, just tell their lords to walk out. not even the unionists believe this anymore
Colin Alexander says:
If the SNP allow Brexit and also fail to deliver on indyref2…….
how do they do that?
CameronB Brodie says:
Independence is never given, it is always taken.
correct. how?
talk is cheap. the real question is what do we do now? blaming the snp is pointless, there job is to pursue political ends, which we can all see are just about exhausted.
the responsability for what happens next falls on us.this is what we should be talking about. this is what wos and SM are good at. coming up with ideas then putting them into action
@ schrodingers cat
Nail and head.
Mist001
How’s about backing your claims up with some evidence? It must exist as you say you see things as they really are. And all the way from France. Well done.
https://browse.startpage.com/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=https%3A%2F%2Fi.etsystatic.com%2F18593896%2Fc%2F480%2F381%2F0%2F90%2Fil%2Ffcd593%2F1633705802%2Fil_340x270.1633705802_pn06.jpg&sp=7070ebc03c325b994ab16990bf5f33b6&t=default
schrodingers cat
International law, ffs.
Mist001 says:
Has anybody in Scotland got the gumption to do something concrete about independence or is it all keyboard whinging?
I note that Sturgeon sent a ‘tweet’ (LOL!) to the march yesterday saying that she wished them all the best and that she was sorry she couldn’t be there. In otherwords, she’s fobbed you all off again because roughly translated, it says ‘If you think I’m going anywhere near you oiks especially in this kind of weather, you’ve got another think coming.’
————-
wrong. the snp is a political party whose job it is to follow a political agenda, they cannot organise what comes next. ie civil disobedience. that needs to be us.
feel free to make a suggestion as to what we should do next!
CameronB Brodie says:
International law, ffs.
a waste of time, a high profile propaganda excercise, so probably worth the snp pursuing it.
once again cam, while the snp pursue this, what do we do. ffs
schrodingers cat
Sorry for snapping.
The Recognition of the Right to Cultural Identity
under (and beyond) international Human Rights law
http://www.lgdjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/3_FERRI_LDG_CRSI_2018.pdf
There is literally tonnes of international public law that the Scottish government could employ in the defense of Scotland’s cultural integrity.
Cultural Life, Right to Participate in, International Protection
https://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e770
@Jock MacDonnell 12:45
If the Scots desire independence no power on Earth can prevent it.
It is ours to take. If some have not the wit or imagination to grasp that self-evident fact then ought we to care?
At best, we might wish them luck in finding a more comfortable ‘home’ elsewhere.
Ruth Davidson might go into business and find them suitable bungalows on England’s south coast, a region no stranger to the needs of those seeking post imperial relocation.
Mist001 says:
12 January, 2020 at 12:58 pm
…Finally, yesterdays march is over. Apart from the mutual admiration and back slapping and ‘well done us’ going on today, what has the march actually achieved. Has it brought us that little bit closer to independence?
I didn’t make Glasgow because I had to work, but I felt bad when I saw the weather forecast and feared there’d be a terrible turnout which our enemies would revel in, but thankfully, my Nation didn’t let me down, rain or no rain.
These marches do achieve things.. For a start you get non-SNP speakers addressing the crowd, and you feel you’re part of something bigger than the SNP and their agenda.
IF devolved Government and the SNP is a damp squib that’s content to be a poodle chained up by Westminster guile and sophistry, then whatever direction Scotland turns to face next will very likely be determined by those “alternative” Nationalists who march for Scotland, not for votes. Craig Murray, Peter Bell… the voices of dissent which might yet be proved absolutely right.
Scotland can, and should contest Brexit on Constitutional grounds before it happens, but even if we don’t, and we are Brexited, it will merely evolve from a Constitutional wrong which should have been averted, to a Constitutional wrong which must be reversed. The legal, and Constitutional aspects of our colonial subjugation do not change. We must hope however that our SNP Government finally grows some teeth, and a backbone, if not before Brexit, then immediately after.
I would naturally prefer to see Scotland’s fight against Brexit happening before the end of January, but then, I’d have started that fight on the 24th June 2016, not squander that opportunity until the 24th February 2020…
Brexit will separate the men from the boys; those who believe that Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty actually means something, and those who think Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is just some obscure historical artefact of no consequence.
If the SNP have their feet planted in the latter camp, then Hell mend them. They will have proved themselves and Holyrood to be a puppet instrument of Westminster, not the Government of the sovereign people of Scotland. A dog cannot have two masters.
Scottish Independence might suffer a blow in the short term, and the open goal of Brexit will have been truly squandered very cheaply, but whatever body replaces the SNP, it will hold Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty as sacred and inviolable, and Scotland will ultimately be the stronger for having the distinction revealed.
There were over a dozen SNP representatives at the march yesterday from John Swinney to Philipa Whitford to Humza Yousaf and I’m not listing the names of all the rest, but it should be noted AUOB is a peoples march organised by the people and not political party driven and that’s a good thing
More information every day coming in on the EUs interest in Scotlands Independence and it’s reported that a question will be put before the EU parliament on facilitating the speedy entry of Scotland post Independence by the Hungarians who are part of an alliance of 150 MEPs x Europe
The EC says they will not make a statement on Scotlands Independence as long as they are still part of the member state the UK, but of course that’s code for *We will make a statement on Scotland immediately on the UKs exit from the EU*
In other news the rumours from the wee birdies are that there’s a planned visit by EU officials to Bute House in February
cam
these are laws in law books, so what. law books dont make the law.
judges, juries, lawyers and politicians make the law.
if it were as simple as pointing to a law in some dusty tome, we wouldnt need judges, juries, lawyers and politicians, the pc in front of you would be more than capable of running the country.
case in point, EU tells spain to release elected catalan MEP political prisoners, spain ignores the eu. the eu then expells the elected catalan MEP political prisoners. how? cos there is a law about MEPs taking up their posts in the EU parliament within a certain time frame. this law says nothing about any reason why an elected MEP doesnt take up his or her position. as such, it is perfectly legal. even if immoral.
as for justice, there isnt any for us, never will be. ask stu about his case against dugdale!
the establishment only uses law to further its own ends, and in this case, the international establishment (eu/un) will only ever favour the uk, not scotland
so while your links are interesting, legally and morally correct, pursuing them through the courts is a job for the snp, not us. then again, such actions will only have a propaganda value for scotland.
so I ask again cam…… now what do we do?
Ottomanboi says:
If some have not the wit or imagination to grasp that self-evident fact then ought we to care?
no
If the Scots desire independence no power on Earth can prevent it.
except westminster?
same question……. how do we do it?
schrodingers cat
Your lack of faith in international public law is a bit disappointing, tbh. As is the SNP’s lackluster challenge to the constitutional legality of Brexit.
Cultural Rights
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199796953/obo-9780199796953-0123.xml
Dr Jim says:
The EC says they will not make a statement on Scotlands Independence as long as they are still part of the member state the UK, but of course that’s code for *We will make a statement on Scotland immediately on the UKs exit from the EU*
i hope yer right, but dont count on it. we will see in 3 weeks. many in the eu will simply say it isnt the eus job to help scotland, and they would be right, it isnt. many eu countries have their own fish to fry, such announcements are not without risk.
so i ask again, the eu will do and say what it will, in the meantime, what do we do?
CameronB Brodie says:
Your lack of faith in international public law is a bit disappointing, tbh.
exactly, whether we have a legal right to anything is a matter of faith, not law cam.
when it comes to faith and belief in the UN/EU/UK Im out.
I have worn a blue UN beret, the last thing my company did as we boarded a c130 to leave, we took off their blue berets, put them in a pile on the runway…..and burnt them
The ONLY reason that the SNP get elected is because there is simply no alternative. That’s certainly why I voted for them.
I look around and I see things that make me absolutely cringe, things like Common Weal, Radical Independence, all those kinds of groups who have no chance of usurping the SNP and even if they did, they would never get my vote in a million years.
There’s AUOB yesterday. The figure *they’re* quoting as in attendance at yesterdays march is upwards of 80,000 people.
So, why the fuck isn’t AUOB forming a political party as a challenger to the SNP? They have 80,000 members ready and waiting. That’s more than the Scottish Greens and all the other pro independence groups in Scotland put together I think, so what is stopping them?
I reckon I know the answer but let’s see if anyone else comes up with the same thing as me.
schrodingers cat
I appreciate there is a difference between legal rights and the legal reality Scotland faces. Justice is possible though. It exists elsewhere, where the rule-of-law is respected.
Intangible Cultural Heritage in International Law
https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_333634_smxx.pdf
CameronB Brodie says:
As is the SNP’s lackluster challenge to the constitutional legality of Brexit.
we havent left yet, indeed, it is only today that bojo has officially rejected the demand for a s30.
hint, legal challenges can only be mounted when actions have been taken
you cant take someone to court because you believe they intend to break the law.
pls review the holyrood fracking ban legislation which was challenged in court by INEOS.
opening submission by SG legal team,
” This legislation has not yet been signed off by the queen and as such, it isnt a law. ergo, the SG has not broken the law or step out of an area of legal competence”
judge…….. case dismissed
Mist001M
Have you never heard of “divide and rule” or “united we stand divided we fall”?
It’s a simple as that, the SNP / Scottish Government are the credible vehicle that will secure Scotland’s freedom.
Other groups, very important, should challenge the SNP on tactics and policy, to set up alternative parties is counter productive, just look at our unionist opponents, like ferrets in a sack!
P.S/ you haven’t got a clue what the answer is, you don’t even know what the question is!
@schrödingers cat
I, personally, would not recognize Westminster as a power.
But then I regard the constitutional and legal element in the struggle as playing right into the grip of that which we seek to escape. History indicates that those seeking their national independence via constitutional means has met with failure. Legalism becomes a noose or garrotte which slowly strangles the life out of those employing it.
Law and constitutions are fabricated to suit the needs of establishments, as such they ought not to br regarded as immutable or ‘sacrosanct’.
The current British régime should be given no quarter as we can certainly expect none from it.
Mist001
the case for another indy party on the list has already been made. It will hoover up the unionist list msps. no question
what is still up for grabs is who? and under what banner?
it needs to be people and a brand that voters trust. many, including myself campaigned for people to vote green on the list. this failed. why? not because of the logic of having another indy party on the list, as i have said, is indesputable, no, it failed cos the yes supporting voters didnt trust them. perhaps with good reason.
i think the best branding to use is YES. the next question is who? i cant see why AUOB members cant be candidates on the list for a YES party. or indeed even stu campbell.
but we need candidates that people trust, otherwise people wont vote for them. the branding, i think is important but a secondary issue
Ottomanboi says:
The current British régime should be given no quarter as we can certainly expect none from it.
fine, so apart from rhetoric, that we all know to be the case, how do you propose to “give no quarter”?
Im all ears, do tell
schrodingers cat
You appear to consider Article 50 to be consistent with British constitutional law. I don’t.
@ End the union!
If one lot isn’t up to the job and it’s becoming clear that the SNP aren’t, then you replace them with someone who’s better, more focussed, more dynamic and who’s more likely to get the job done. It’s nothing to do with divide and conquer. It’s completely normal and you’d do it with cowboy tradesmen in your house. You’d replace them.
What’s happening with the SNP in Scotland ISN’T democratic, because there is no alternative for independence supporters. It’s the SNPs way or nothing.
How on earth can that be democratic?
@ schrodingers cat
80,000 people at the march yesterday is 80,000 members for a new political party set up by AUOB.
Unless they’re pulling the figures from thin air.
So, why can they organise a march but can’t form themselves into a political party?
Mist001
No, you reclaim the party you thought you were supporting.
End the union! says:
to set up alternative parties is counter productive
no it isnt
a party exclusively fighting on the list is not counter productive
fact. in 7 of the 8 regions in scotland, 850k snp votes won 1 list msp. (marie todd)
you can have your own opinions, you cant have your own facts
And what’s happened to Manny Singh?
I see the evil Viceroy for Scotland, His Imperial Stooge Grand Moff Jack Shit, has declared that any vote against the Empire will be ignored and the Death Star will be used to obliterate rebel strongholds.
Bit of an arsehole isn’t he?
Mist001
i never said they couldnt
i merely pointed out that a single list indy party brand would be better.
that says nothing about who the candidates should be. indeed, if you think there are people in the AUOB organisation who would make good candidates, name them. see what others here think?
@schrödingers cat
Plainly you have a deficit in the strategy department. Do read some history on the subject of national liberation. Scotland is not a special case.
Ultimately it reduces to how much Scots want independence and to what lengths are they prepared to go.
So what are cultural rights and where do the stand in the scheme of international law?
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/RegularSessions/Session31/Documents/A.HRC.31.59_E.docx
schrodingers cat @ 14:01,
Curiously, you don’t seem to expect the SG to be at all proactive in this matter, and yet it’s all but certain that they will be. You don’t seem to have factored-in that it will have war-gamed a non-committal or absent response from BoJo the Great Victor, which seems par though for the kind of thinking of dubiously-insurrectional armchair warriors, expecially the absent kind.
As to your “call to arms” and civil disobedience, I’m even more disappointed in this premature superficiality of thinking, and I’m a 100% signed-up impatientista. This can only work if the vast majority of the people of Scotland are already behind it, and before then it would go off like a damp squib and alienate far more than it convinces. And we don’t need polls to tell us we are not there yet. As I and others have said before, we need a campaign first to properly capture peoples’ attention.
And that campaign, as has apparently escaped your notice, is only just starting. A game of chess is now afoot. I will be very surprised if the SG doesn’t start acting in ways that will oblige BoZo to react or vacate the field by default, either of which will only lead him into further jeopardy.
This is going to be another war of the creeks, for those with some knowledge of the history of the low countries.
Ottomanboi says:
Plainly you have a deficit in the strategy department. Do read some history on the subject of national liberation.
History of national liberation….read plenty, Ottomans dont do irony or have a sense of humour. there is a reason turkey isnt, and never will be, an eu member. (see history)
Ultimately it reduces to how much Scots want independence and to what lengths are they prepared to go. really, how far from your armchair are you prepared to go? do tell
Currently in Iran, there are major protests over the shooting down of the Ukranian airliner. The protestors are being fired upon by riot police armed with mainly tear gas but also with real bullets.
In France (where I currently live and am allowed to participate in UK elections and referendums), there are weekly protests, originally by a group called ‘Les Gilet Jaunes’ who were protesting over the rising cost of living. Since then, the French government have attempted to bring in pension reforms and as a result, the Gilet Jaunes have been joined by many more groups and trade unionists. Every week, these protestors are being fired upon by riot police armed with mainly tear gas.
In Scotland, which is being dragged out of the EU against its will, it has a series of monthly marches planned and that’s it.
Now, it’s one thing having groups of people in forums like this stating that we want independence and I’m one of them, but in the grand scheme of things, maybe Scottish people aren’t all that fussed if Scotland becomes independent or not.
There’s what, 5.5 million people in Scotland and we’re only a tiny, tiny handful shouting amongst ourselves on the internet.
Where’s the passion for independence that’s being seen in demonstrations like Iran and France?
It’s simply not there.
And that’s an uncomfortable truth, as Al Gore once said.
If you ain’t got cultural rights, you ain’t got much hope of having the rest of your human rights respected.
Intersectionality and Interdependence of Human Rights:
Same or Different?
http://www.equalrightstrust.org/ertdocumentbank/Intersectionality%20and%20Interdependence%20of%20Human%20Rights%20Same%20or%20Different.pdf
@Golfnut, 10.20am
Well some of the police at the March reckoned nearer 150k, but those were just private conversations. It felt huge, I say that because we were jam packed, it didn’t really start to stretch out until nearer Glasgow green. We were near the front so really difficult for us to judge. We left after about 20 mins when we got to Glasgow green, headed for Greggs at George Sq, we could see the March still coming down to Union street.
It was huge. I was waiting to march with the Hail Alba pipe band so was watching from the footbridge at Charing Cross. What a sight the march was coming down Woodlands Road. As someone in the crowd said to me “There’s our sunshine.” The marchers filled the breadth of Woodlands Road. Last year, we were kept to one side. What also struck me was how dense the crowd was and the marchers were not strung out.
80,000. Is that true or did you hear it on the BBC?
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Curiously, you don’t seem to expect the SG to be at all proactive in this matter, and yet it’s all but certain that they will be.
———
wrong, the SG will be proactive, only, proactive in the way the SG should be, eg, legal challenges etc. thats their job
————-
the kind of thinking of dubiously-insurrectional armchair warriors, expecially the absent kind.
———–
eh? ive seen combat on three continents, i was out there giving it laldy with my machine pistol when you were back here counting fukcing socks. REMF’s should not assume.
———-
As to your “call to arms” and civil disobedience, I’m even more disappointed in this premature superficiality of thinking, and I’m a 100% signed-up impatientista. This can only work if the vast majority of the people of Scotland are already behind it, and before then it would go off like a damp squib and alienate far more than it convinces.
————-
that was the whole point of this thread rjs, it was to get people to start discussing the issue of civil disobedience. there are different types of CD,
eg, terrorism, I am definately not proposing such a thing, I opposite it.
nor am i proposing blockading grangemouth. an option for the future perhaps, but we are not there yet
we need CD which inconveniences WM, not the people of scotland. CD which keeps the spotlight firmly in public view, more publicity stunts than anything else, eg demonstrations like getting dressed up as batman and sticking a big yes sign on the side of edinburgh castle.
I merely pointed out that i didnt think nicola would be doing this any time soon.
there are degrees of CD
———-
And that campaign, as has apparently escaped your notice, is only just starting. A game of chess is now afoot. I will be very surprised if the SG doesn’t start acting in ways that will oblige BoZo to react or vacate the field by default.
————
good luck to the sg, i wish them every success, i really do. but that still doesnt answer the question, what do we do now?
Re yesterday’s AUOB March>
Independence Live have uploaded after the March an indoor All Under One Banner [AUOB] meeting with approx 10-15 speakers.
It’s on YouTube with variable acoustics.
Starts at 2 minutes in,with the speakers beginning at 6:40.
Independence Live on YouTube:
https://tinyurl.com/rtfet5n
In Scotland, which is being dragged out of the EU against its will, it has a series of monthly marches planned and that’s it.
i have worked in france for the last few years and seen the GJ in action. not all of their tactics would work here but some would. eg blockading the forth bridges or the railways would only annoy scottish voters, bojo couldnt care less. a bit like the climate activists shutting down the london tube. counter productive.
one action, blockading the autoroute tolls was very popular, cos the companies that run the tolls, withdrew all personell for safety reasons meaning drivers could pass without paying. very popular 🙂 except we dont have road tolls in scotland.
@SC –
If you’re looking for practical suggestions relating to the issue of civil disobedience specifically, here’s one – to coincide with the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath we establish a register of people who are prepared to take part in flash-mobs, occupations, strikes etc with the aim of forcing the SG to nail a date for Indy2.
Calling such people ‘volunteers’ might upset some as the word does have emotive connotations, but that’s what they’d be. ‘Nae violence, nae hooliganism, and nae bevvying!’
If you fancy joining me, we could start it today.
???
Mist001
what actions by the GJ do you think are transferable?
i saw them occupy every roundabout with pedestrian crossings and 150 walk round and round the zebra crossings all day. very effective in bringing traffic to a complete standstill.
once again, i dont think this will work here, it only inconveniences fellow scots, bojo couldnt give a monkeys. this would only lose us support.
so again what actions by the GJ do you think are transferable?
IMHO, Article 50 is a case of political violence against Scotland, as it completely ignores Scotland’s legal personality and can not be accused of constitutional impartiality. As such, Article 50 destroys the moral justification for union.
Cultural Resistance: The arts of protest
https://www.newtactics.org/conversation/cultural-resistance-arts-protest
Top Scottish figures on the march on Saturday for those who are wondering – include – Humza Yousaf, Keith Brown, Phillipa Whitford, John Swinney, David Linden, Margaret Ferrier, George Adam, Kirsten Oswald, Pat Grady, Sandra White and Martin Docherty-Hughes.
With photos.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18154179.auob-independence-march-top-scottish-figures-attended/
@ schrodingers cat
And that’s the thing. People in Scotland would view any direct action as an annoyance rather than a good thing of potential benefit to Scotland.
The polls haven’t moved and the SNP of today is a different animal from when Alex Salmond was leader and there’s the answer to Scotlands independence:
Leadership.
Here’s one grounded in the Pedagogy of the Oppressed, which I posted a good while back in OT. 😉
Scripting Resistance: Governance through Theatre of the Oppressed
https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/10176/Malloy_Adam.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Mist001 says:
And that’s the thing. People in Scotland would view any direct action as an annoyance rather than a good thing of potential benefit to Scotland.
———–
thats the difference between france and scotland, actions which damage the economy of france in an atempt to bring down macron are justified
any action we take which damages scotlands economy would be welcomed by bojo. indeed it will save him the bother of doing it himself for that is what he is doing and will continue to do for political reasons
to that end, only actions which effect the whole of the uk can be taken here.
horses for courses.
you mentioned the GJ
could you name one action they have taken which could work in scotland? one?
schrodingers cat @ 15:04,
Well, taking to the streets here with your machine pistol sure as hell isn’t going to convince people that independence is the best way forward, so why even mention it?
If the SG’s strategy is really no better than painfully trying to win over the fabled 60% long-term before having a referendum, then supporters will surely lose patience, myself included. But there’s no point in trying to rabble-rouse a considerably indifferent population until all legitimate avenues have been frustrated. And that point is not here yet.
The SG deserves its due, and what we need right now is to let them get on with it while forcibly reminding it that time is almost up, and visible action a necessity, not an option. But no-one needs a premature failed uprising that would play right into London’s hands.
As I’ve said, I do know a bit about overcoming structurally produced cultural oppression. 😉
CULTURES OF RESISTANCE IN PALESTINE AND BEYOND:
ON THE POLITICS OF ART, AESTHETICS, AND AFFECT
scholarworks.smith.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2767&context=theses
Mist 001 @2:48
aye, but you’re not smart enough to realise that Al Gore ‘inconvenient truth’ is, in fact, a scam…..but you feel free.
Now – did you get to vote in Indyref1 from France?
I shit you not. 🙂
Special Thematic Section on “Decolonizing Psychological Science”
Beyond Adaptation: Decolonizing Approaches to Coping With Oppression
https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/310/html
Mist001 says:
People in Scotland would view any direct action as an annoyance
true. but only if it affects them directly, eg blocking of access to the scotland office would disrupt the workings of the scotland office but would have virtually no impact on the general public. i dont think that would annoy many folk in scotland. blocking trains would, see extinction rebellions action on london tube
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Well, taking to the streets here with your machine pistol sure as hell isn’t going to convince people that independence is the best way forward, so why even mention it?
—————————
never suggested such a thing, i merely replied to the accusation that i am an armchair warrior by a REMF in the same way i always do.
——————-
If the SG’s strategy is really no better than painfully trying to win over the fabled 60% long-term before having a referendum, then supporters will surely lose patience, myself included
——————————
the SG will do what it thinks best, good luck to them. i am trying to generate debate about what we should do next. feel free to comment.
———————–
The SG deserves its due, and what we need right now is to let them get on with it while forcibly reminding it that time is almost up, and visible action a necessity, not an option.
——————
as i said, good luck to them
————-
But no-one needs a premature failed uprising that would play right into London’s hands.
——————–
exactly my point, my subsequent posts point exactly to this point.
1. now is not the time for an uprising
2. we need to avoid any action which plays into londons hands.
But there’s no point in trying to rabble-rouse a considerably indifferent population until all legitimate avenues have been frustrated. And that point is not here yet.
————————–
Im not rabble rousing, i am trying to generate a discussion about what we can do next. if you have read my comments, i diss those for saying, “we need to step up action” without actually saying what action they actually propose. it is empty rhetoric.
but when it comes to actual suggestions of action I am trying to clarify exactly what point we are at?. you just assumed I am talking of revolution etc which i am certainly not. my subsequent posts are quite clear about this.
@ schrodingers cat
Here’s an idea. AUOB take 80,000 people on a march along Princes Street East to West, then take a right at South Charlotte Street and have a rally outside Bute House.
Since it’s not France, tear gas is unlikely to be used, the police would have a difficult job arresting 80,000 people, the media would take notice and the SNP leadership will certainly take notice.
In fact, there may be an answer in there somewhere. The UK is one of the least bureaucratic countries in Europe. How would it cope if its systems were overwhelmed with trivial requests for information about something on a weekly, or even daily basis?
A minimum 80,000 people all sending questions written down on paper to the SNP reminding them that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its will and what do they intend to do about it?
The same tactic could potentially be used against any organisation because they’re simply not designed to cope with that amount of correspondence.
This is just me sitting here indulging in a moment of spontaneous thinking but with planning, it could be an effective method to galvanise someone to take action because at the moment, everything about Scottish independence is just stagnating.
The only leverage that most of us have is our labour.
So we withdraw it.
Most of us are sick of WM/Brexit so we call in sick on significant dates. Call it the ‘WM Bug’ if that helps.
Again, a first step would be to gauge support.
Who would be prepared to do it?
why inconvenience our own population? follow extinction rebellions example and bring London to a standstill.
You only need a very small number of people hitting the main arteries of the city to cause havoc. I’m quite sure we could get a 100 out of the 80,000 from yesterday if it came to such a desperate situation. I’m sure that a threat of this happening would focus the minds some otherwise entrenchened idiots to start some negotiation.
watched Jack S. Pratt on tv this morning stating that SNP didn’t get a majority as 55% of the unionists voted against them.
By the same Tory arithmatic they are not the legitimate government as 55% of the voters opposed them. If you take in the people who didn’t vote that drops their share below 30% of the electorate,
Also bumping his gums about the once in a generation yet again, why does no one ask about the fantastic vow which was made by the leaders of 3 unionist parties? Of course that does not count as that was made by the leaders who are no longer in power.
Keep putting these idiots on tv, at least once a day we’ll be up to 90% by next month!
The Tories seem intent on doing our civil disobedience for us.
Last BBC Brexitcast v interesting. EU insist ‘Fishing’ must be sorted before summer & any other trade talks. i.e. tories will have sold out Scots fishermen again & nowhere to hide.
https://twitter.com/allwasdark/status/1216313492485103616?s=20
I am looking for practical guides to civil disobedience, but most of this stuff is quite theoretical.
The trifecta of civil resistance: unity, planning, discipline
Three attributes can make the difference between success and failure for nonviolent movements around the world: unity, planning, and nonviolent discipline.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/trifecta-of-civil-resistance-unity-planning-discipline/
One for thpse who reject civil disobedience as undemocratic.
Revitalizing democracy through civil disobedience
https://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/143409/1/Revitalizing%20democracy%20through%20civil%20disobedience.pdf
One from the Journal of Peace Research. 😉
The practice and study of civil resistance
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57c9db502994ca8c81a0de1b/t/59c835ddd2b85751f50aef66/1506293215319/Schock_Journal+of+Peace+Research-2013-.pdf
There is a clear constitutional emergency for Scotland. Scotland’s political will is being blocked: England’s political will is being forced upon Scotland.
Saying the SNP tried and have reached a dead-end is untrue. They have tried all the UK State approved ways and come to a dead-end. They have played all the devolution cards and lost.
The SNP – and politicians of other parties – must step up and take responsibility. If ANY of Scotland’s political representatives won’t take action, they are part of the PROBLEM, not part of the solution.
The Union, as it was, between 1991 and 2019 is OVER. The devolution experiment is OVER. The Sewel Convention is dead.
The SNP should recall their MPs and MEPs to Scotland. They must hold a constitutional emergency meeting that invites all Scotland’s MPs, MSPs and MEPs to attend.
No secret plans – an open agenda for all Scotland’s people, open to the public and media.
My suggestions for the agenda:
1. The Parliament of Scotland should be reconvened as representing Scotland’s sovereignty in the Union. Westminster no longer recognised as representing Scottish sovereignty.
2. The Parliament of Scotland should vote to block Article 50 by withdrawing Scotland’s consent to Brexit and notify the EU Commission of this.
3. The Parliament of Scotland should then vote to arrange a Scottish indyref on dissolving the UK Union.
Mist001,HYFUD and the rest of the Yoon trolls
You should go into business making bread.
Your first loaf would be called.
“Mothers Embarrassment”, you would have to put a warning on the packing “will cause verbal diarrhoea and leave a bitter taste”.
Well done to the young guy who piled into the “Green” at the end with no top on, LEGEND.
I had a wee word with a member of the plod, and thanked them for being there, he said it was the biggest crowd he had seen in Glasgow.
Of course that should have said “1999” to 2019.
Apparently Extinction Rebellion ‘deactivated’ a number of traffic lights at strategic locations in Central London and caused total mayhem.
Just sayin’.
And so it came to pass, that on the 11 day of the first month of the year 2020. The “Big Man or Dave or ??” having once before tried a deluge with some bloke named Noah, decided to test the commitment of the Scottish Independence movement by producing “biblical rain”.
Going by the atmosphere yesterday, he got the answer.
Well done folks, my boots are still drying out, jackets knackered, but worth the soaking.
I got a nice wee photo of the “Apron on the Turd” whoever is responsible?
Nice One.
This is me just sitting here doing some serious thinking as well. Many of the 80,000 marchers yesterday will be SNP supporters and I doubt if they would all go and vote for an AUOB new party as you suggested. You may not like what the SNP are doing, but some of us do as they are our only hope of Independence, there is no alternative.
Why do you think they would all want to march to Bute House and have a rally and write things on pieces of paper? This would be great propaganda for any unionist commentator, as they would see it as anti SNP and anti Scottish Government. They would have a field day with this stupid suggestion.
So you can piss off and take your protests to wherever you can find Alistair Jack.
Sorry forgot about time Mist001 3.53
The stench of the rancid decaying so-called united kingdom gets worse by the day. Bad heirs all round.
@ sandycraig
“You may not like what the SNP are doing, but some of us do as they are our only hope of Independence, there is no alternative.”
That’s exactly the reason WHY there should be an alternative.
So what if the media/unionist/insert your favourite bad guy here get upset? So fucking what?
That’s the whole point of protest, you dimwit.
People like you are like dogs who chase a car. Once they catch it, they have no idea what to do with it, so they piss on it and move onto something else. That’s you and independence all over. Without the chase for independence, you’d be lost.
Mist001 says: at 2:48 pm
“In Scotland, which is being dragged out of the EU against its will, it has a series of monthly marches planned and that’s it.
Now, it’s one thing having groups of people in forums like this stating that we want independence and I’m one of them, but in the grand scheme of things, maybe Scottish people aren’t all that fussed if Scotland becomes independent or not.
There’s what, 5.5 million people in Scotland and we’re only a tiny, tiny handful shouting amongst ourselves on the internet.
Where’s the passion for independence that’s being seen in demonstrations like Iran and France?
It’s simply not there.
And that’s an uncomfortable truth, as Al Gore once said.
The uncomfortable truth is that you are ranting away on t’internet from France and seem to have no fucking idea what is going on in Scotland.
There is an ever growing network of highly committed grassroots groups and individuals doggedly working away to inform Scotland’s generally small c conservative society of information that they were unaware of, because previously they only had the shit MSM and TV broadcasting to inform them.
These initiatives are generally smallish organisations and operating in their own localities and are tailoured to best reach the local people, so you won’t have visibility of this sitting in France.
YES Hubs / Shops are continuing to be opened in our towns and cities by individuals who are committing massive amounts of their time and resources to enable such things to happen.
Just because every Scottish Independence activist doesn’t post btl on the likes of Wings or Craig Murray’s blog doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Much as I admire the French and their ability to mobilise and carry out protests, Scotland is a different place for many reasons as has been eluded to up thread by other commenters.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/12/safety-fears-hospitals-redeploy-nurses-care-patients-in-corridors
And not one Tories bad, Hancock resign comment in sight…
@admiral
Link archived.
https://web.archive.org/save/https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/12/safety-fears-hospitals-redeploy-nurses-care-patients-in-corridors
@ Liz g on 12 January, 2020 at 3:32 am: No apologies necessary.
Regarding your previous post addressed to me, @ 3:29 am. Oh i’ve never, nor will i ever, advocate even contemplating getting rid of them before we take back our right of self-determination.
Self-determination is the be all and end all. The No1 priority bar none. We take back our right of self-determination *then* we set about building and forming the sort of country Scotland wants, without outside interference.
Anyone attempting to make any other issue the No1 priority should be treated with the greatest of suspicion. Self-determination first and foremost then the sky is the limit.
and there’s the answer to Scotlands independence:
Leadership.
And you have a very inspirational charisma which could well lead us to our Shangri La.
Could you not come out of exile in France like say our bonnie Prince Charlie and get us over the line.
C’ Mon Misty.
Get your dirty british arse over here and lead us in our hour of need man.
That’s right Dan. The Rev is making all these statistics up. He was telling porkies when he posted that the polls haven’t moved significantly when really in your view, they’re at 80% and rising.
Would that be a fair assessment of the way your mind works?
some real suggestions now coming through so thanks for that. i think we all now accept that we have crossed a line. but for now, we need to agree exactly what this line is and what it means for us in the immediate future.
i think we can all agree on the following
Civil Disobedience is now on the cards but, for the moment, this should be limited to the following.
1. no action which inconveniences the scottish public only
2. no action which damages the scottish economy only
3. actions which follows 1,2 which keeps the indyref2 profile as high as possible is encouraged, even if it breaks the law, is permitted.
4. actions which follows 1,2 which embarress and inconvenience westminster, the bbc and the unionists is encouraged
I dare say there are people on here who believe we should go further, and perhaps further down the line we will, but even if you think this, you must by force support this change in tact.
a few suggestions of the top of my head…….
bbc pq protest. we need to embarress bbc at every opportunity, flash crowd mobbing their outside units
also
COP26: Glasgow to host UN climate change summit in 2020
the world media will be in glasgow for this, we should organise a big demonstration/protest of some kind to raise our profile.
Dakk, as dirty as my arse may be, it’s Scottish, not British despite my passport saying the contrary.
I’m not a freemason, I’m not a member of the speculative society and I’m not a member of the Law Society of Scotland, so the chances of me leading any political party in Scotland are pretty slim.
I would be a very good deputy, however.
The reason I suggested written letters to cause disruption is because emails are all too easily dismissed. When a person has to sit down and physically open 80,000 envelopes on a weekly or daily basis, then has to read them all in case it’s anything important, then it’ll grind them down eventually.
Good news folks!!
We have the Iranians on our side!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7878899/Iranian-demonstrators-burn-Union-flag-hold-posters-proclaiming-England.html
Mist001 says:
“You may not like what the SNP are doing, but some of us do as they are our only hope of Independence, there is no alternative.”
That’s exactly the reason WHY there should be an alternative.
—————
agree with this, but if not the snp and it is us who are the alternative, we still need to move forward together, as one.
we need to find a concensus. i believe my previous post which sets out limits to our actions in the immediate future should be something we can all agree on
Mist001 says:
I would be a very good deputy
——————–
good, i would suggest that as a candidate on the list, who one is, is less important than what one stands for. eg a statement that you would never oppose any vote supported by the snp would win support from snp voters. also consider dressing up as a giant penguin/panda/bucket head etc. dont underestimate the power that murdo fraser losing out to a giant panda would bring
My tuppence worth on the ‘civil disobedience’ issue being raised quite a lot recently.
A very good idea but disastrous if the intention is to (a): Do it now and (b): Do it on Scottish territory.
I believe yous should be organising and planning ahead for such activities and the time for doing it should be as a response if London puts their military on Scottish streets. Keep the moral high ground, let London make that mistake then respond.
If such activities are to be carried out it also makes more sense to do it in England. Cross-border wrecking crews. LOL! (1): You don’t piss off fellow Scots by disrupting Scotland. (2): If there’s one thing London doesn’t like is when a message is taken to them. They’re used to shitting on, and in, other countries but at a loss when given a taste of their own medicine on their own doorstep so to speak. Just like any other bully.
Two final points: (a): The point Liz-g made the other day. Don’t openly discuss it on here. Contact each other privately and (b): Make sure it’s peaceful civil disobedience, there are enough top brains out there among us who will be able to paralyse/disrupt England without resorting to killing/hurting innocents. That’s also the fastest way to lose support and sympathy. No violence!
And the funnier the activity the better. 🙂 Good luck!
BTW: Fishing vessels have blocked the Thames etc and tractors have blocked various roads. Wonder what it would look like if the biggest ever convoy of vehicles left Scotland for London then upon reaching the M25 bring it all to a standstill. Every single lane and junction/exit etc blocked by stationary vehicles. Bet you that would gain a headline or two. Hahahaha!
As everyone is probably aware of now, I live in France which makes it difficult for me to be ‘hands on’, or ‘on the ground’ in Scotland.
Although I have my detractors on here, as far as I personally am concerned, I’m doing my best to help Scotland achieve independence using the means at my disposal, ie the internet!
Other than voting SNP as and when required because there is no alternative, there’s not a lot else that I can do apart from contribute ideas, some of which admittedly may be crap, others may be quite good.
“My enemy’s enemy is my friend”.
Mist001
Perhaps you wouldn’t have detractors if you hadn’t appeared on here spouting mince and dissing folk as racists.
http://www.irenees.net/bdf_fiche-analyse-998_en.html
Stoker
i believe my post covered the concerns you raised. it covers the line we have now just crossed. whether wm ups the anti in the future is a bridge we will cross when we come to it. but for the moment can i take it you support my post?
Civil Disobedience is now on the cards but, for the moment, this should be limited to the following.
1. no action which inconveniences the scottish public only
2. no action which damages the scottish economy only
3. actions which follows 1,2 which keeps the indyref2 profile as high as possible is encouraged, even if it breaks the law, is permitted.
4. actions which follows 1,2 which embarress and inconvenience westminster, the bbc and the unionists is encouraged
@ CameronB Brodie
“Perhaps you wouldn’t have detractors if you hadn’t appeared on here spouting mince and dissing folk as racists.”
The first bit is simply your opinion and not important, the second bit is I call them out when I see them. I have no time for racism disguised as nationalism, Scottish or not.
And I didn’t come here to particularly make friends so detractors don’t get to me either. They come with the territory.
@Mist001
In all my years as an activist I only know of a few folk that have been polled.
Less and less folk use a shitey landline as mobile coverage offers better deals.
You say I think the polls are at 80% and rising, where the fuck do you come up with this stuff?
I like a red wine, but will also keep myself hydrated with beers and spirits, and apparently I come across as high on chocolate at times, but goodness knows what spirits you’re imbibing to make such preposterous and incorrect assumptions.
The mindnumbing reality is many Scots are still disconnected or oblivious to the situation we find ourselves in, so the ability to flick a switch and transform Scots to think Indy is the best way forward in quick time just isn’t there.
What have you actually done on the ground and around the doors in the real Scottish world to progress the Scottish Independent cause in the last few months?
EDIT: A page refresh shows a post that you use internet.
Well at least that severely limits your reach, but should you ever think of travelling over from France to the area of Scotland I live, and use your same antagonistic, hardline approach to convince folk, I ask that you Stay Misty, for me…
There, that should be enough to get folk thinking. 😉
Civil Disobedience as a Practice of Civic Freedom
https://www.bloomsburycollections.com/book/on-global-citizenship-james-tully-in-dialogue/ch6-civil-disobedience-as-a-practice-of-civic-freedom.pdf?dl
@Stoker 6:25pm
Correct, never shit on your neighbour or your own doorstep, the Norn Irish made that mistake and look what it got them, they only got a result when they took it to London
The one thing the English can’t deal with is loss of commerce and money because it winds up the English population then they’re the ones doing the complaining, as I’ve said before this is not the place to talk about it and there are people already on this who won’t talk about it but it comes down to Airports Trains Infrastructure even shipping, not sitting outside a building with your finger glued up yer arse singing Kumbaya til you freeze and the cops do their thing and wheech you off causing you to lose your job and livelyhood, your wives and kids might think they want you to do it but they only mean for and hour or two then be home for your tea in case you get in trouble
But you know what I don’t think it’ll come to that, well not just yet, there’s a lot of talky stuff to go in the next couple of weeks before anything actually happens
One more thing, governments *always* negotiate with what they call terrorists, *always* or there’d never be political agreements when there’s conflict
Mist001
Do you even understand what racism is? Please expound and identify examples from WOS?
The Sunday National has great photos of al the wonderful folk who braved the dreadful weather.
@Dan 6:43pm
I’m on the polling register for Prof Poultice and after my first home visit questionaire I have never been asked my opinion again because on the questionaire they ask if you’re a member of a political party, I am, and it’s SNP, hence no further participation in polling
Which in a way is really annoying because I got paid £10 quid for taking part with subsequent payments to follow each time I was to be polled, I’d hoped that was going to be my sweety allowance sorted
I challenge any Scot to read this and not appreciate the racism articulated through contemporary British nationalism.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0963721417724239
Mist001
My years of chasing independence are coming to an end, and I only want what is best for my children and grandchildren, and it’s not what you propose. You have no idea of my background and calling someone a dimwit and a car chaser isn’t the best way to influence anybody.
Having a rant now and again is fine but you seem to do it quite a lot as others on here have noticed. Your opinions are not the same as mine, so enjoy the rest of your night.
@ Shrodingers Cat.
‘ action which embarrasses and inconveniences westminster, the BBC and the unionists ‘
The disaster of Brexit is down to Westminster, the media and the establishment. Those three bastions of the British state have set in motion a potential international catastrophic event which will cause maximum embarrassment to all three.
The threat of the crown being removed from the current incumbent family.
A petition to the Scottish Parliament ordering the monarch to appear before our elected representatives and explain just exactly who gave her permission to sign the EU withdrawal bill against the the expressed will of the people of Scotland. Done in the year of the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath will have added significance.
It needs to be done on the streets though, not an online petition.
And a bit more on the racism of Brexit.
‘Postrace’ racism in the narratives of ‘Brexit’ voters
usir.salford.ac.uk/50206/14/Post-race%2520Brexit%2520FINAL%5B1%5D.pdf
@Breeks at 10.57am
I was chatting to a neighbour about my seaweed collecting for veg beds earlier today, and off the back of that he mentioned a book that may interest you (and others) that fits in with what you were saying in your earlier post.
His Bloody Project by Graeme Macrae Burnet
Admiral at 5.05pm posted a link proving the dire crisis in England’s Tory ran hospitals.
Shocking and disgraceful and getting worse by the day since the Tories came to power
Down there 10 years ago.
Well England voted overwhelmingly for more of the same so it’s very hard to have sympathy for them.
The Tory plan was always to slowly strangle it until it reaches the point where they say we can only treat you if these American companies can help for a small additional fee.
Then it’s hey presto and you suddenly can’t afford treatment, Bojo and the old Etonians can get special rates as share holders.
The very next winter epidemic will mark my words kill 10’s if not 100’s of thousands will die needlessly. Just need to hope they are those who voted for it.
It’s coming!
BBC at it again Emily Thornberry on Marr this morning states that Harry had served 20 years in Afghanistan – rubbish of course, however the bbc changed this on the pm news – it was the same interview as Marr but her words changed to ‘great service’. You have to ask what else do they change.
Then we had Rebecca L saying Labour will abolish the HOL – how long have labour been promising that – but only in opposition, funny that but of course they keep filling it up with their own Lords and Ladies.
Non-violent civil disobedience certainly works for XR from my own experience of their activities.
Of course the promoters of bollox will tell you that it only alienates the support of the general public and even interview people who’ll say as much. The truth is that that is BOLLOX.
I accompanied a friend involved with XR as a carer in November 2018 when not many more than a thousand people were able to block and occupy 5 major London bridges for hours.
I also experienced from start to finish the April London occupations of Oxford Circle, Marble Arch, P Square etc, that lasted 12 days. My friend was prominent during October’s protests when the police resorted to breaking the law in their futile efforts.
Non-violence and numbers of people are key. Not everyone is able to risk arrest but some of us can.
In November 2018 the arrests were less than 100 but still caused too much strain on the met police. A passive body needs at least a couple of cops to be removed.
In April over a 1000 were arrested and the legal system is still not coping with that let alone the many more from last October.
I remember in April seeing a few groups from Scotland XR joined at Marble Arch after a week or so and were at the October protests from the start. There’s an increasing number of XR groups in Scotland and I imagine most will be Indy folk.
For me personally Indy and XR are mutual causes with the city of Westminster and city of London being key targets if there is to be any better future.
Golfnut says:
The disaster of Brexit is down to Westminster, the media and the establishment. Those three bastions of the British state have set in motion a potential international catastrophic event which will cause maximum embarrassment to all three.
————-
true, but the question is what should we do, the establishment have screwed up, no question, and will continue to do so
A petition to the Scottish Parliament ordering ………….. petitions, loads of them already
What have you done with Joe, Brodie? Did you kill him?
John D
take onboard what you say, and in the future we may need to go down this route, but the question before us is agreeing that we have crossed a line and what, for the moment, will the majority agree is a suitable response.
i believe my post is a minimum reaction which everyone can get on board with
Civil Disobedience is now on the cards but, for the moment, this should be limited to the following.
1. no action which inconveniences the scottish public only
2. no action which damages the scottish economy only
3. actions which follows 1,2 which keeps the indyref2 profile as high as possible is encouraged, even if it breaks the law, is permitted.
4. actions which follows 1,2 which embarress and inconvenience westminster, the bbc and the unionists is encouraged
Reluctant Nationalist
Nah, I think I busted his far-right, American, identity, so he no longer served the cause. Who are you outside your imagination anyway?
The irony. I wouldn’t be so cocky if I were you. 😉
Reluctant Nationalist
Is that a threat? It certainly comes across as such.
It looks like I’m not going to get an answer, so lets crack on, shall we?
The meaning of racial or ethnic origin in EU law:
between stereotypes and identities
https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/just/document.cfm?action=display&doc_id=43228
I didn’t mean to break the thread.
‘Populist’ can be a weasel word for ‘racist’, and that’s dangerous
Flawed use of the word ‘populist’ to describe politics beyond the mainstream right is legitimising racism. Academics and journalists are ignoring the evidence staring us in the face.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/populist-can-be-a-weasel-word-for-racist-and-thats-dangerous/
House Jock Jack is not giving you his opinion but what he has been told to say. SOS are consulted, remember the power of ‘The Mundell’, in the same way as Tory branch managers are. They are given orders and expected to carry them out unquestioningly, I give you number one exhibit Jackson Carlaw.
Finding an effective means of protest to bring Westminster to the negotiating table? Hit them in the pocket.
Disabling traffic lights in Edinburgh, Glasgow etc won’t do, nor blocking roundabouts. And it would certainly not raise sympathy from the Mebbes Aye punters among us.
England needs our oil, gas, and power, and so these are the solid financial targets to block.
The Scottish government should be investing now in our ports and so enabling exporting/importing our goods via our ports.
Installing an anti-drugs unit on the M74 and A1 to inspect incoming traffic would an be effective and expensive commercial blockade.
The Westminster responses would surely, finally open the eyes and minds of the waverers?
Meantime, post 31st Jan., the EU are no longer constrained in expressing it’s view on EU Scotland’s lapsed EU membership. Why not apply to rejoin?. How would/could Westminster democratically respond?
So maybe we should wait a week or two before considering more drastic initiatives.
Lots of great black-and-white photos of the march on the ‘YourWullie’ twitter feed.
Probably not a coincidence he precedes them with an old picture of Glasgow Labour people walking past kids in a deprived area of the city.
https://twitter.com/yourwullie?lang=en
ps
Its a great source for all sorts of images.
Check out these colour pics of beatles fans queuing for tickets in Edinburgh 1964
https://twitter.com/YourWullie/status/1215747205887332352
Disability Rights activists are well experienced in direct action.
https://blacktrianglecampaign.org/category/black-triangle-in-the-news/
velofello says:
Disabling traffic lights in Edinburgh, Glasgow etc won’t do, nor blocking roundabouts. And it would certainly not raise sympathy from the Mebbes Aye punters among us.
————
which is what said in my post
—————————–
England needs our oil, gas, and power, and so these are the solid financial targets to block.
—————————-
I have previously suggested such blockades, however, for the moment, i dont think we are at that point. my post was designed to find a concensus of opinion for the moment as to the way forward.
———————
The Scottish government should be investing now in our ports and so enabling exporting/importing our goods via our ports.
————-
agree with this
————-
Installing an anti-drugs unit on the M74 and A1 to inspect incoming traffic would an be effective and expensive commercial blockade.
——————
interesting idea, not sure this power is devolved?
—————-
Meantime, post 31st Jan., the EU are no longer constrained in expressing it’s view on EU Scotland’s lapsed EU membership.
————————–
i hope so, but it isnt the eu’s job to win scotlands independence, its ours
————–
So maybe we should wait a week or two before considering more drastic initiatives.
——————
agreed, but i think we can take the 1st step in agreeing that we have crossed the rubricon and come to a consensus of what action we can take at the moment
@SC –
Your persistence in getting this discussion off the ground is to be applauded.
I’m too flippant and get disgruntled/bored too quickly. This matter requires steady, calm deliberation. And we can be sure that there are high-heid yins in the SNP who, in their youth (and perhaps still in their dreams) considered similar actions. The obvious fact that – as elected officials – they could never be seen to condone such behaviour doesn’t mean they wouldn’t ‘support’ it.
(FWIW, this thread is the most positive and upbeat I’ve seen in a long time, on here or anywhere else.)
@ Shordingers cat
Frankly beggars belief that you should so casually dismiss a direct challenge to both the establishment and the UK gov from the only Sovereign body capable of doing so, the people of Scotland. The action also empowers the Scottish Parliament through a direct transfer of sovereignty from people to parliament on a single issue. But I guess blocking roads and switching off traffic lights is easier.
Ian Brotherhood says:
Your persistence in getting this discussion off the ground is to be applauded.
(FWIW, this thread is the most positive and upbeat I’ve seen in a long time, on here or anywhere else.)
————
thanks for the support Ian
Scottish ports are getting some attention, albeit with the financial constraints the Scottish Government has to work within.
Some examples:
Montrose
https://news.gov.scot/news/port-of-montrose-grant-cuts-thousands-of-lorry-journeys
Dundee
https://www.gov.scot/news/gbp-4-million-support-for-decommissioning/
Rosyth is also getting some development work but not sure Scottish Government involved with any funding on that one.
https://www.forthports.co.uk/latest-news/cefetra-to-create-base-at-port-of-rosyth/
Golfnut says:
Frankly beggars belief that you should so casually dismiss a direct challenge to both the establishment and the UK gov from the only Sovereign body capable of doing so, the people of Scotland.
——————–
actually, i didnt dismiss the idea of a petition, i merely pointed out that we have had loads of petitions. by all means promote one, ill sign it.
but legal challenges are the stuff of government. this thread is about what we should do
—————————
The action also empowers the Scottish Parliament through a direct transfer of sovereignty from people to parliament on a single issue. But I guess blocking roads and switching off traffic lights is easier.
—————
the transfer of power has already happened when we elected them. If you had read my post i am not proposing to block any roads or traffic lights.
not yet anyways
@IB
The obvious fact that – as elected officials – they could never be seen to condone such behaviour doesn’t mean they wouldn’t ‘support’ it.
as i said, it isnt their job to take this to the next stage. its ours
Humourous antics are generally well received.
Setup an Onionist street stall covered in Jackass flags with leaflets to enlighten the public to the “excellent” benefits Scotland gets from being part of the UK.
EG:
Virtually never get the government you vote for.
Lose your EU citizenship against your will.
Work the longest working hours,
for the shitest pay,
and if you manage to live long enough you’ll eventually receive the shitest pension.
etc etc
Being in this Onion would bring a tear to a glass eye.
@ schrondingers cat:
I appreciate your response but… anti-drugs unit in the A& and M74, you write – not sure this power is devolved.
And that is the point at which we falter through lack of resolve.
What power/permission/authority is needed for Scotland to protect itself from illegal drug trafficking? What power does the Scottish government lack to instruct Police Scotland to act on this anti-drug measure.
Oh of course there will be “inconveniences”. Westminster may well protest, so too the supermarkets. Meantime Westminster’s minions gleefully discuss Scotland’s drug problem.
@ Dan; good info on ports development. To encourage the use of the ports, impromptu Mot verifications/inspections on the Scotland side of the A7 and M74 might help.
velofello says:
I appreciate your response but… anti-drugs unit in the A& and M74, you write – not sure this power is devolved.
And that is the point at which we falter through lack of resolve.
——————————
the power i was refering to was the ability to set up such police controls
————————————–
What power/permission/authority is needed for Scotland to protect itself from illegal drug trafficking?
————–
customs control
———————
What power does the Scottish government lack to instruct Police Scotland to act on this anti-drug measure.
——————-
customs control
Oh of course there will be “inconveniences”. Westminster may well protest, so too the supermarkets. Meantime Westminster’s minions gleefully discuss Scotland’s drug problem.
In NVCD it is paramount to avoid inconveniencing the general public without letting them know why . It works as long as you explain clearly who and what you are targeting and why.
One way is to let the police know your intentions ( this negates the problems of the certain infiltration) so they can facilitate diversions and such.
I spent days engaging with the general public directly at road blocks .
The reactions where actually life affirming. For every angry / raging reaction there were more than tenfold more positive ones. Leaflets and personal engagement can even convert those initially anti ,as most Indy folk know.
@SC –
Aye, agreed.
It seems perfectly in keeping with the basic tenets of ‘democracy’ that the SG should react to what ‘we’ do rather than the other way about.
I had to laugh at Alister Jack’s face as he delivered his big NAW to Scotland speech, he looked terrified at what he was saying because he has holdings and property in the borders that he must know will be the first to burn
That is if there are people angry enough to do such a dastardly thing, not me of course I’m a retired person on a pension with no connection whatsoever to criminal doings
Given the Governor General’s comments today, which I find helpful, it means that we can up the ante in 2020. The tories have closed down democracy & that adds more friction which will warms things up quite nicely.
Those thinking about civil disobedience.
The next thing you’ll be getting classified as extremists!
Like that dangerous man, Richard Murphy
Maybe get self-iding.
Then when they come for you
You can accuse them of extremophobia!
http://archive.is/Pa4qV
Oh, and btw.
The passive , even party, nature of such activities really confuses police who would like to get torn in. Telling the police that they’re on the same side tends to win them over.
The orders telling police to not join in / stop skating, dancing and the like came from well on high.
One of my favourites was by the pink boat on Oxford st whilst chatting to a Met Police Sargent from Scotland ( x military) , it was evening, good sounds were playing and thousands upon thousands of the public were relishing a newly pedestrianised major thoroughfare on a warm evening. An irate Asian looking gent approached the officer and began to remonstrate with him that the police weren’t sorting ‘these people out’. This officer then proceeded to tell him that we live in a democracy where peaceful, even if disruptive, protests are allowed. The guy walked off wishing we could just shoot
folk.
16 quid each but I’d imagine a flash mob consisting of a large team of Scottish Sumo wrestlers might cause a fair bit of chaos staggering around various important places. lol
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Inflatable-Sumo-Costume-Suit-Fat-Wrestler-Adult-Kid-Halloween-Fancy-Dress-Cospla/392313285217?hash=item5b57b1aa61:m:m38j0rfZxf5OUjCIP_vkG1g
Dan
Not true, Greece has the longest working hours in Europe.
https://greece.greekreporter.com/2018/01/24/greeks-work-longest-hours-in-europe/
The UK has the 9th highest average annual salary in the EU.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/557777/average-yearly-wages-of-full-time-employees-in-eu-countries/
The UK also has compulsory workplace pensions too now so very few UK pensioners will rely just on the state pension (which will rise by £343 a year from April)
Even Alan Cochrane of the Telegraph expects Indyref2 and he flamin hates us even more than Willie Rennie does, but Cochrane expects the proposition will win, he doesn’t like it but he does expect it
Here’s another tool which may be useful for those who want to get more active, and do it professionally – Anna Brees provides free training for aspiring journalists.
https://twitter.com/BreesAnna
RIP Sir Roger Scruton, the great conservative intellectual who backed English voters also having a vote on the Union and voting for independence while living side by side with the Scots, showing not all conservatives are Unionists
https://www.roger-scruton.com/articles/85-should-the-english-have-a-say-on-scottish-independence
Dan, nice idea the sumo suits, but expensive. However I’m rapidly reaching the shape where I could probably get by without hiring one.
In order to promote a more equitable and sustainable social and ecological balance, you need to target appropriate transgressors of social and environmental justice. Not those who oppose the effects of neo-liberal ideology, which has managed almost total penetration of human existence. Ironically, this links to Judith Burtler’s theory of performativity, which gave birth to gender-ideology, which is bad. Mkay?
The paradox of resistance: critique, neoliberalism, and the limits of performativity
https://janabacevic.net/2018/02/07/paradox-of-resistance-critique-neoliberalism-and-the-limits-of-performativity/
And here’s a secondr opinion.
Subjectivity as a site of struggle: refusing neoliberalism?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01425692.2015.1044072
And here’s a peek at performativity through the lens of Foucauldian ethics. Neo-liberalism is the extremism at the base of most existential threats faced by humanity. It even threatens what it means to be human.
Terror/enjoyment: Performativity, resistance and the teacher’s psyche
https://ray.yorksj.ac.uk/994/1/Clarke-Terror-enjoyment%20and%20the%20teacher's%20psyche-2013.docx
@Cam B –
So, these fuckers *are* aliens after all?!?
Ian Brotherhood
They’re total mother fucker.
@Cam B –
🙂
Aff tae ma pit.
Merr power tae ye brother!
😉
Ian Brotherhood
See you soon-ish. 😉
Dan says:
12 January, 2020 at 7:29 pm
@Breeks at 10.57am
I was chatting to a neighbour about my seaweed collecting for veg beds earlier today, and off the back of that he mentioned a book that may interest you (and others) that fits in with what you were saying in your earlier post.
His Bloody Project by Graeme Macrae Burnet
I’ll track that down Dan, thanks for the heads up…
Aye you’re definitely right about Sir Roger Scruton he wasn’t a Unionist he was a Tory Nazi typical of the breed, Scotland and Scottish inhabitants of their own country should have the inhabitants of another country make decisions, not for them, but over them just like they’re doing now, but they call that consultation don’t they where they don’t *normally* interfere with Scottish parliamentary decisions then remove the powers of the Scottish parliament at will
Well we shall see how that all works out for them very soon Nazi boy
Btw, Jana Bacevic’s “about me” is exactly where I’m coming from, or trying to anyway. I am very rusty and nowhere near the level of Janna. Hence the crap jokes and annoying links.
As I said, I’m rusty. Here’s some critical legal though re. Judith Butler and Performativity.
Judith Butler: Performativity
http://criticallegalthinking.com/2016/11/14/judith-butlers-performativity/
Ha ha! Time for Civil Disobedience still?
Just wait until Scotland is Brexited, with Holyrood’s tacit acquiescence that Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty doesn’t exist, and then the Scottish Parliament will deserve to be burned to the ground as a material instrument of our colonial subjugation and emasculation of Scottish Sovereignty.
But I’m not talking an act of sabotage or terrorism, every patriot of Scotland, Young and old should be there, and the event be as wholesome for the Nation’s psyche as Scotland throwing out English rule after Bannockburn.
For those who are appalled by proposal, let us propose it formally, through appropriate channels, and apply for Planning Permission first. Wouldn’t that make a poignant occasion, when it reached the Appeal Stage and was put before the Scottish Parliament itself?
“We, the Angry Mob of Scotland, hereby seek Planning Permission to destroy by fire the false “Parliament” Building which denies the existence and ascendancy of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty….”
Holyrood might yet be the best £400 million we’ve ever spent…
THE AUOB POST-MARCH PRESS CONFERENCE ON SATURDAY JAN 11TH
These speakers add another dimension to the March and is A NOT TO BE MISSED opportunity to broaden your understanding of what’s going on.
With Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan among others, including two speakers from Wales, all with very interesting ideas, not least of which is by David Younger of THE DIGITAL SCOTTISH COVENANT at 1hr 05 minutes into the broadcast.
https://independencelive.net/event/1578
Civil disobedience may or may not be the next big thing, but it is very important to constantly keep the whole chessboard in view, and to understand, among other factors, the opponent’s strategy.
With that in mind, the UK PMJohnson, has a brainwashing campaign already on the move to persuade the UK population that that this decade is going to be an exciting and successful one for the “four countries of the UK”. In other words, keeping a grip on the Union (especially the Scottish Cash Cow) is his priority, and he will pursue this from a Colonial standpoint only.
We can therefore expect Westminster to suppress all ideas of Scotland’s sovereignty, including the right to self-determination, and to increase control and exploitation.
This means a full-on propaganda War-footing at 10 Downing Street.
We need 100,000 AUOB Marchers blocking the main streets of London.
The ignorant voters down there will soon change their tune and be keen to see us move on.
I thought the undemocratic and draconian attitude of the Tories would see a violent element erupt.
See to happen everywhere else as witnessed in Ireland.
The Scottish Electricity desperately needed in England might become a target for those who gave up on peaceful protest?
If England is sitting in the dark they would become very focused on swapping powers.
Before ANY civil disobedience, it is imperative that Scotland should FIRST petition the UN and EU for International Recognition of Scotland’s EXISTING Sovereignty.
If Westminster can recognise the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish People, then so too can the International Community.
These actions should have been squared away years ago. What are we waiting for?
Sovereignty is asserted, if you decide to go around begging for recognition then you are asserting nothing. Real power cannot be given.
@ Shrodingers Cat.
‘ legal challenges are the stuff of government
Where did I mention a ‘legal’ challenge?, this is about mobilising the people of Scotland, all the people of Scotland, not just a few brave individuals. It’s also about educating people face to face about their rights and giving them a voice, a voice that Westminster is desperate to silence. This is about getting the YES movement campaigning on the streets.
This is about frightening the shit out of the establishment.
Thanks Manandboy ‘re The Scottish Digital Covenant.
BBC Staff Now Reporting BBC to Ofcom https://twitter.com/MartineMavi/status/1214184143178911745
@ Jock McDonnell.
Although we need international recognition of sovereign status, we have to act like a Sovereign people first. If the people of Scotland are sovereign then it follows that Westminster can’t be.
Golfnut says:
13 January, 2020 at 8:46 am
@ Jock McDonnell.
Although we need international recognition of sovereign status, we have to act like a Sovereign people first. If the people of Scotland are sovereign then it follows that Westminster can’t be.
Correct.
Scotland needs to resolve the internal paradox of being a Sovereign Nation that somehow isn’t sovereign.
It’s the Union which cannot properly exist, not Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, but without International recognition, you’re driving the car in neutral.
There would be no need for civil disobedience were the SNP per se manifestly more ‘bolshie’, less cooperative, more nationalist, more ‘pro-active’. The party leadership gives the impression of functioning within rules that are of the ‘rulers’ making. Such caution bewilders many. It suggests, among other things, a lack of confidence in the case.
We have a political ‘nationalism’, although some might question to what extent, but we lack an intellectually, culturally driven nationalism. Such did exist in the early 20th century but was effectively killed off by the rise of the ‘bread and butter’, utilitarian National party which condemned it as ‘romantic’.
There is an intellectual tradition in Scotland, one we share with mainland Europe, time the SNP plugged into it. Hearts and minds?
For those of you unaware, i think a lot of folk on here might enjoy this. RT have a chat show titled ‘Renegade Inc’ that brings together writers, thinkers and creators etc to question and re-think the conventional norms.
Today’s programme had a former middle-east journalist, Sharmine Narwani, on it who had a few interesting things to say about journalism standards in the world today etc. And how we’re seeing growing trends in the narrowing and shutting down of any discourse considered controversial. Outlets such as Facebook & Twitter, and society in general, are shutting down any discourse they deem controversial.
Anyone interested the show repeats today at 1:30 pm, 6:30 pm & 11:30 pm. The second part of it is shown next Monday (20/01/20).
Message to the BBC: And YES, as per my New Year resolution, i will be watching and i’ll continue to watch what i like when i like and i’ll still *not* be paying a penny towards any licence fee. Catch me if you can. Oh the rebel in me is strong. LOL! 🙂
@ mike cassidy – thx for posting the Richard Murphy article on XR classified as an extremist organisation. Very interesting that any opposition to the Establishment is now likely to be regarded as extreme. That’s us BTW.
http://archive.is/Pa4qV
Effijy says
Not correct, if there is a large gathering the police will just kettle the march, the only way is by guerrilla tactics, many small groups scattered through London forcing the undermanned force to split which means that the disruption can be very effective.
It only takes one person hanging from a main bridge to stop traffic for hours.
If it comes to this unwanted situation. We have to get organised into small cells as terrorists do.
Hopefully wastemonger won’t allow the anger to reach this level before seeing sense, though looking at past practice I don’t hold out much hope.
Alister Jack has said that Nicola Sturgeon won’t see another independence referendum in her lifetime. That sounds like a threat to me.
@ Capella.
Definite trolling by Jack.
Abulhaq says:
13 January, 2020 at 9:01 am
There would be no need for civil disobedience were the SNP per se manifestly more ‘bolshie’, less cooperative, more nationalist, more ‘pro-active’…..
Also correct.
Two and a half weeks until our unlawful Colonial Subjugation and we have an incredible amount of powder kept dry.
@HYUFD at 11:49 pm
Ok, but what’s not true about Scots virtually never getting the UK government we vote for, or the Kingdom of Scotland supposedly being an equal partner in the UK and wanting the UK to stay in the EU, but being overruled by the other supposed equal partner?
Can you now polish this turd and explain in positive terms why under UK Conservative governance with their austerity policies, there’s a significant rise in number of folk having to use foodbanks?
Aye Capella
Nicola “Dead in a Ditch”
Our “Protector” wishes.
Be careful House Jock Jack! Remember the fate of that other “Protector” Reinhard Tristan Eugen Heydrich.
It could suite the EngNats if you were victim of one of their false flag operations!
Desparate times may call for desparate measures!
@Stoker
I found her twitter account last week when searching for news on Iran / Iraq.
It’s worth a scroll through.
https://twitter.com/snarwani
She retweeted this chap who also has some interesting content.
https://twitter.com/DCKennard
In the last few days I notice twitter appears to have altered the page layout from what it used to be when viewed on my computer, to the style it uses for mobiles. In doing so they have reduced the information available for those viewing without an account.
A couple of years back they made another tweak which restricted those without an account seeing all the activity on accounts they wanted to view.
This all ties in with the narrowing and shutting down of discourse you mention.
I think the Yes movement need to do a ‘Sovereign Scots Claim of Right’ march. Get it into Scots psyche and international political understanding that the Scottish people are sovereign.
With the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath we need an outfit like Phantom Power to do a social media campaign to go viral to inform what the DoA means and also one on the Claim of Right.
There’s no doubt we need to up the ante. AUOB is great but we need to think about other tactics including civil disobedience as others have cited.
No matter what people think of Tommy Sheridan, he did civil disobedience on the Poll Tax right. We should be using these people power tactics now.
If we could get to the point of a General Strike that would have massive impact (although I don’t think Scots have that kind of appetite these days).
In any case, IMO the Yes movement is going to have to make independence happen all by ourselves if we want this to happen in our lifetimes. It’s now obvious the SNP is not going to ‘rock the boat too much’ so to speak. They’re allowing us to be removed from the EU, that much is certain. They’re toothless.
We’re going to have to make it happen. Time for the Yes movement to step up – the waiting game is over.
Ineos wants to double the price of using the Forties pipeline which it bought from BP in 2017 for $250m (£191m), from next year.
https://archive.is/uOY2J
manandboy
Thanks. Fascinating that not one of the speakers was mentioned in the National’s article on famous Scots on the march, which could equally have been titled highest paid troughers on the march.
I should like to know why were over 90% of the SNP’s MPs and MSPs NOT on the march? They should all have been.
Scozzie says:
13 January, 2020 at 11:04 am
I think the Yes movement need to do a ‘Sovereign Scots Claim of Right’ march. Get it into Scots psyche and international political understanding that the Scottish people are sovereign.
4th April AUOB Arbroath….
‘Alister Jack has said that Nicola Sturgeon won’t see another independence referendum in her lifetime. That sounds like a threat to me.’
It’s pure provocation, they want Nicola and the SNP to show their hand. They are desperate to know what she has planned.
To be honest, in my opinion, the less Nicola bites, the more beneficial it is to the Independence movement.
Scozzie says:
I think the Yes movement need to do a ‘Sovereign Scots Claim of Right’ march. Get it into Scots psyche and international political understanding that the Scottish people are sovereign.
———
thats a good idea, themed marches, it cant hurt or detract, post this suggestion on AUOB facebook or twitter pages
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There’s no doubt we need to up the ante. AUOB is great but we need to think about other tactics including civil disobedience as others have cited.
——————-
agreed, we do
———–
No matter what people think of Tommy Sheridan, he did civil disobedience on the Poll Tax right. We should be using these people power tactics now.
—————-
i think it is time for tommy again, he is the firebrand we need at the moment, i dunno if the yes movement will follow him though. I hope he is reading this, because only he can put this to the test
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If we could get to the point of a General Strike that would have massive impact (although I don’t think Scots have that kind of appetite these days).
———————-
worth considering, im not sure if this would work though, would the folk come out? wouldnt this just inconvenience fellow scots? would bojo care? (see my post on the present limits of CD)
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In any case, IMO the Yes movement is going to have to make independence happen all by ourselves if we want this to happen in our lifetimes. It’s now obvious the SNP is not going to ‘rock the boat too much’ so to speak. They’re allowing us to be removed from the EU, that much is certain. They’re toothless.
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it is for us to up the anti, the snp has no choice but to toe the line, they are a political grouping in a position of power not a protest campaign, they can rock the bot but not step outside the bounds of legality, albeit boundaries set by WM. it isnt the snp who has allowed scotland to be pulled out of the eu against its will. it is the people of scotland
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We’re going to have to make it happen. Time for the Yes movement to step up – the waiting game is over.
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agreed, what do you suggest?
its no long enough to say ” we need to rock the boat” we now need concrete suggestions. easier said than done scozzie, i know, but with 300k readers on this site, this is where the ideas will come from.
Craig Murray
do you agree that its now time for a campaign of CD?
if so, what would you suggest?
Breeks @ 11.10am
We should encourage AOUB to make the 4th April march an official ‘Claim of Right’ march – all banners stating our claim of right – drive home the message hard.
Get Indyposterboy to design printables for people to make into banners.
Get Joanna Cherry to front it and be the headline speaker.
Invite the international media.
Get an online ‘We demand our sovereign claim of right’ twitter trend, facebook etc. Encourage all Scots international diaspora to support the online claim of right (I’ll do my bit in Oz).
Phantom Power to hit social media with film clips on our Claim of Right.
We need to switch things up a bit.
Can people with contacts make something like this happen? I feel just another AUOB march is just not enough….
@ Craig Murray
Can I pick your brain? You being a former diplomat, is allowing 28 days for a diplomatic reply the normal practice in political / diplomatic communications?
The reason I ask is, Thursday the 16th January 2020 will be 28 days since the FM wrote to BJ regarding an s30.
where we are legally
The Scottish Government’s Case for a Second Independence Referendum
On 19 December 2019 – a week after the Westminster General Election at which the SNP, again, won an overwhelming majority of Scottish seats – the Scottish Government published its long-awaited case for a second independence referendum: Scotland’s Right to Choose: Putting Scotland’s Future in Scotland’s Hands.
The document does three main things, aimed at four distinct audiences. First, the bulk of the discussion is devoted to setting out the democratic case for holding a second referendum by the end of 2020. This is based on three claims: that the people of Scotland, as members of a multi-national Union based on consent, have the sovereign right to determine their own constitutional future; that there has been a material change in circumstances since the 2014 referendum; and that the Scottish Government has a mandate to hold a referendum. The material change in circumstances is said to be the fact that Scotland will be leaving the European Union despite the desire of the majority of Scottish voters to remain, combined with what the Brexit process has revealed about Scotland’s place within the UK. The Scottish Government’s mandate derives from its victories at the 2016 Holyrood election, and the 2017 and 2019 Westminster elections, combined with a majority vote in the Scottish Parliament on 28 March 2017. The main audience for this part of the document is soft Unionist supporters in Scotland and beyond. It seeks to persuade them that it would be undemocratic for the UK to continue to refuse to facilitate a second referendum, thereby drawing attention to the SNP’s central constitutional argument for independence: the continuing democratic deficit in the governance of Scotland.
The second aim of the document is to make the case for a second referendum to be held on a consensual basis, and for co-operation by the UK Government in putting its legality beyond doubt. The document refers to the precedent of the October 2012 Edinburgh Agreement, in which the UK and Scottish Government agreed on the conditions for a legal, fair and decisive referendum, and which led to a temporary amendment of the Scotland Act 1998 via an Order under section 30 of that Act to enable Holyrood to enact authorising legislation. The main audience here is two-fold. First, the Scottish Government’s own supporters, some of whom are impatient with what they see as its excessively cautious approach to securing independence. Second, the EU institutions, for whom the legality (as well as the consensual nature) of the process might condition any future relationship with an independent Scotland.
Finally, in Annex B, the document sets out draft amendments to the Scotland Act – to be made either by another section 30 Order or by primary legislation – to secure the necessary transfer of competence. These go significantly beyond what was agreed in 2012. First, they include an explicit statutory recognition of Scotland’s right to self-determination. Second, they would permanently amend the Scotland Act to make it clear that Holyrood has competence to authorise an independence referendum. Third, they make provision for implementing a vote for independence by placing a statutory duty on the UK and Scottish Governments to co-operate in securing the transition to independence, and by extending the legal competence of the Scottish Parliament, Scottish Ministers and other public authorities to prepare for independence. Clearly aimed at the UK Government, these proposed amendments may more accurately be seen as an invitation to treat rather than a realistic expectation of what might be agreed. Indeed, unionist parties in Scotland are likely to want to place more conditions on a second referendum than on the first – for instance, control over the referendum question, or requiring a special majority to trigger a vote.
Although the UK Government is yet to formally respond to the Scottish Government’s request, the indications are that it will not agree to a referendum in 2020, although it is unclear whether it will reconsider – for instance, after the 2021 Holyrood General Election. Assuming that it does continue to refuse to cooperate, where does that leave the prospects for a second referendum? In the remainder of this post, we consider, first, why the legality of a referendum – and, by extension, the process of becoming independent – matters; secondly, we consider the options that may be open to the Scottish Government to secure a lawful referendum.
Why Does Legality Matter?
A state may become independent in one of two ways: either with the consent or at least acquiescence of the parent state, in accordance with its domestic constitutional requirements, or via a unilateral declaration of independence (UDI). Although the International Court of Justice recognised in its 2010 Kosovo Reference that UDI is not contrary to international law, it is a less certain and less satisfactory route to independence. This is because achieving effective independence is a matter of securing recognition by other sovereign states, including the parent state, and this, as the ICJ pointed out, is essentially a political rather than a legal matter. In effect, international recognition is much more likely to be forthcoming if the independence process is perceived to have been legitimate. As Scotland’s Right to Choose clearly acknowledges (p 20),
When they make a decision about their future, the people of Scotland must do so in the knowledge that their decision will be heard and respected and given effect to: not just by the government in Scotland, but also by the UK Government, by the European Union and by the international community.
For a referendum to have this legitimacy, it must have the confidence of all of those that it would effect (sic). This means not just the UK Government acknowledging and respecting the Scottish Government’s mandate, but the Scottish Government and UK Government seeking to agree the proper lawful basis for the referendum to take place.
As a matter of UK constitutional law, Scotland can only become independent with the agreement of the UK Parliament – whether that agreement is explicit and direct, via specific legislation granting independence; indirect, via a general transfer of competence to secure independence to Holyrood; or implicit, if the authority to seek independence can already be found within the terms of the Scotland Act 1998. As a matter of law, a referendum is not a required part of the process of becoming independent. However, it is at least arguable that, in a conventional sense, it is a constitutional requirement, given the precedent of the 2014 independence referendum, the provisions for a border poll on Irish reunification in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and the statutory referendum ‘lock’ against unilateral abolition of the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament by the UK Parliament in the Scotland Act 2016. The House of Lords Constitution Committee in its 2010 report on Referendums in the United Kingdom (para 94) also took the view that it was at least appropriate for a referendum to be held on questions of secession by any of the nations of the UK from the Union.
If a second independence referendum is to take place and be effective as a means of achieving independence it is therefore crucial that it be conducted on a proper legal footing – that is, that the rules it sets out providing for the organisation of a poll and regulating the conduct of the referendum campaign are legally valid and hence binding on those to whom they apply. This is a separate – and a more important – issue to the legal effect of the referendum result. The 2014 referendum was advisory only – it did not legally bind the UK or Scottish Government to give effect to a vote for independence – but it was legally valid because it was conducted on the basis of legislation enacted by Holyrood after its competence to enact such legislation had been confirmed by the section 30 Order (the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 and the Scottish Independence Referendum (Franchise) Act 2013 – both of which are now spent). Attempting to proceed with a referendum without such a legislative underpinning would be a non-starter, given that it would depend upon the co-operation of Scotland’s 32 local authorities in organising the vote (none of which is under majority SNP control), and would almost certainly be boycotted by unionists.
A Referendums (Scotland) Bill completed its passage through the Scottish Parliament on the same day as Scotland’s Right to Choose was published. This provides a general legal framework for referendums within devolved competence, similar to, but in some respects going beyond, the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (which only applies to referendums authorised by Westminster). However, in order to be applied to any particular referendum, further specific authorising legislation is required.
Although it is frequently asserted that a referendum on independence falls outwith devolved competence (as part of the reservation to Westminster of “the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England”, Scotland Act 1998, Schedule 5, Part 1, para 1(b)), that issue has never been conclusively settled. Nevertheless, any attempt to legislate for a referendum without a further explicit transfer of power is certain to be challenged in the courts; could cause significant difficulties within the Scottish Government, possibly including resignation of the Scottish Law Officers; and might also provoke retaliatory legislation from Westminster to make clear that such legislation is not within Holyrood’s competence, similar to the fate of the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill. Moreover, even if such a Bill were to survive, a unilateral approach to authorising a second referendum might again lead to a unionist boycott and could not be certain of co-operation from the UK Government in implementing a vote for independence.
Securing a Lawful Referendum
Unpalatable as it may be to some nationalists that the exercise of Scottish self-determination depends on Westminster’s co-operation, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is necessary. What, then, if anything, might be done to secure that co-operation?
It has been suggested that, should the UK Government refuse to accede to the request for a transfer of legislative competence, a legal challenge might follow – and indeed a crowdfunder has already been launched with such litigation in mind. It is, however, extremely unlikely that such a challenge would be successful, since there is no duty to make a section 30 Order, still less to introduce primary legislation. The crowdfunder makes vague reference to the case being brought on the basis of the right of the Scottish people to self-determination. But it is at least implicit in the Scottish Government’s request for statutory recognition of this principle that it does not currently form part of UK or Scottish constitutional law – even if it has plenty of endorsement in constitutional practice. This contrasts with Northern Ireland, where the “principle of consent” is explicitly recognised in the Good Friday Agreement, and given statutory expression in section 1 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Similarly, while international law does recognise a right of national minorities to self-determination which may, in some circumstances, include a right to secede from the parent state, the Supreme Court of Canada concluded in its Quebec Secession Reference that this does not apply in the case of national minorities such as Quebec and also Scotland which already enjoy a high degree of internal autonomy and political representation.
Similarly, the Scottish Government’s mandate to hold a referendum – though politically important – seems legally irrelevant. The doctrine of the mandate plays, at best, a marginal role in UK constitutional law and practice, and in any case what constitutes a mandate is highly ambiguous: how clear does a manifesto promise have to be; is a majority of seats or of votes required (and can these be aggregated from more than one party); and which elections are relevant – to the UK Parliament, which holds the legal competence to dissolve the Union, or the Scottish Parliament, from which the Scottish Government’s authority derives? Other, more standard grounds of judicial review – legitimate expectations based on the precedent of the Edinburgh Agreement, irrationality, or failure by the UK Government to give adequate reasons for the rejection of any request – also seem likely to fail. Again, this contrasts with the position in Northern Ireland, where it was recently held (In Re McCord at [20]) that, in relation to the Secretary of State’s duty to hold a border poll under section 1 and Schedule 1 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, she must “honestly reflect” on whether the statutory conditions (that it is likely that a majority would vote for Irish reunification) are met.
In light of these difficulties, another option that has been proposed by some in the SNP ranks is to bypass a second referendum altogether. This so-called ‘Plan B’ urges the Scottish Government to take the return of a pro-independence majority to Holyrood in 2021 as a mandate directly to enter into independence negotiations with the UK Government. For a number of reasons, this is unlikely to succeed. First, the Scottish Government has rejected this approach in Scotland’s Right to Choose, whilst the SNP leadership has also done so in the defeat of a motion to debate this alternative path at the 2019 party conference. Second, the pursuit of independence via this route fails to avoid the power dynamics behind the referendum dilemma. Any such approach would require the UK Government willingly to join those negotiations, something that seems unlikely without clear and unambiguous popular endorsement. Third, in the absence of a mutually agreed and regulated process of participation robust enough to cultivate losers’ consent, this approach is highly unlikely to be “accepted as legitimate in Scotland, the UK as a whole, and by the international community” (p 1).
So much for what the Scottish Government cannot do, or ought not to do. What can it do proactively to advance its position? Strategically, it is likely that the Scottish Government has always anticipated that the UK Government will reject its call for a referendum in 2020. Instead, there seems to be an attempt to frame any such rejection – and the democratic case more broadly – as the central issue of the 2021 election to the Scottish Parliament. Whilst, as a matter of law, the UK Government might continue to withstand the pressure of a renewed pro-independence majority at Holyrood, there have been signs even in unexpected places – notably from within the UK Government itself as well as from within Scottish Labour – that the legitimacy of such a result would be difficult to resist. Tactically, the SNP might rely on its Westminster membership to maintain political momentum towards – and to finesse the legal form of – a referendum. It could do so with the introduction of a Private Members’ Bill in the form set out in Annex B. Such a Bill would almost certainly fail to be passed. However, and as advocates for an EU referendum discovered prior to the UK Government’s introduction of the EU Referendum Bill in 2015, these Bills can usefully be deployed both to give life to – and to stress test – proposed legislation; to signal action to an impatient audience; as well as to emphasise the sites of political obstruction when the Bill falls. That cohort might also use the advantages of being the third largest party at Westminster – including increased opportunities to make use of opposition time or to ask questions of the Prime Minister at PMQs – to provoke a response from the UK Government. At Holyrood, the SNP – working with the assistance of Greens and other parties opposed to Brexit – might see the legislative consent mechanism as one way to re-state the argument from democratic deficit, as it has done this week when the Scottish Parliament refused legislative consent in relation to the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2019-20.
Political pressure might also emerge outside of these formal political institutions – from public protest or from civic initiatives such as the 1989 Claim of Right or the Scottish Constitutional Convention which preceded the formal act of devolution. Indeed, on the same day that the First Minister announced her government’s intention to pursue a referendum by 2021 she announced also the establishment of a Citizens’ Assembly for Scotland that would examine the sort of country, independent or otherwise, that Scotland wants to build.
Conclusion
Whether there is a second referendum – and if so, on what terms – is a political question that will be resolved in the political arena. There are no legal short cuts through that space. However, just as there is no legal right to insist upon Scotland’s independence or its competence to hold a referendum, nor is there – contrary, for example, to the Catalonian experience – any legal obstacle to independence if the political argument can be won. It is not only in this passive sense that law matters. A negotiated approach to establish a sound legal footing is likely to come at a cost, be that the insertion of conditions by the UK Government or the passage of time as agreement is sought and concluded. However, as Scotland’s Right to Choose makes clear, a referendum that has a clear legal basis, agreed to between governments, that is regulated by law and consistent with democratic and rule of law values is the surest – perhaps the only – way to deliver a result that is fair, decisive, and accepted as legitimate at home and abroad.
Chris McCorkindale, Senior Lecturer in Public Law, University of Strathclyde
Aileen McHarg, Professor of Public Law and Human Rights, University of Durham
soz for the long post but i thought this piece was worth posting, informed and easily read
A possible Plan B. Any feedback?
1. The Parliament of Scotland was only adjourned, never dissolved by Scotland’s parliamentarians. It was announced dissolved by Royal Proclamation. I believe this was the legal equivalent of Boris Johnson’s prorogation of UK Parliament via The Queen without parliament’s approval. In other words the dissolution of the Parliament of Scotland was not according to Scots Law. Eg. Claim of Right, the Crown usurping parliament and the laws and traditions of the people of Scotland.
Denying Scotland democracy and dragging Scotland out of the EU after the people voted Remain is also usurping the sovereign will of the people of Scotland.
2. The SNP withdraw their MPs from UK Parliament and invite all Scotland’s MPs to withdraw with them.
3. Those MPs form a quorum and declare the Parliament of Scotland in session. (The real parliament exercising Scotland’s sovereignty, not a devolution/colonial parliament). Scotland’s MEPs, and MSPs should also be invited to take seats in the Parliament as the representatives of Scottish democratic will as expressed by the sovereign people of Scotland.
4. Those MPs vote that Scotland stays in the EU so they veto Scotland’s Scexit as part of the UK.
5. The Parliament of Scotland seeks Royal Assent as an emergency measure and notifies the EU of the constitutional issue that there a lack of consent for withdrawal from the EU as the people of Scotland are sovereign within the UK union and have exercised their sovereignty to reject Scexit / Brexit under the current terms.
6. The Parliament of Scotland, exercising / representing that sovereignty has no need to seek subservient s30 legislation. A parliament exercising sovereignty and the democratic mandate can order a Scottish indyref, instead of asking permission for a UK state indyref.
7. The Scottish MPs have the mandate to block Brexit. They have the mandate for indyref. The Parliament of Scotland ( that exercising Scotland’s political sovereignty) is already in existence, and merely in adjournment as explained above.
8. Thus, there is no declaration of independence – yet. No attempt to completely dissolve the Union, until the democratic mandate is clearly established. Scotland would simply be exercising her constitutional rights according in Scots Law and those MPs would be exercising the established democratic mandate already given to them by the sovereign people of Scotland.
So Union Jack suit man (Ian Murray) has compared Scotland to the pedestrianised high street in Norwich.
Schrodingers cat @ 11.50am
I don’t have answers but as you point out we have 300,000 readers between us we must surely have some suggestions.
I know it sounds a bit wanky but I think we need to do more to get celebrities to influence our corner at home and abroad – Alan Cummings, Brian Cox, Amy McDonald etc. – really encourage them to push our voice. Wear Yes badges, give interviews, invite them to speak at marches (celebrities attract media coverage).
The New York Tartan Day parade is 4th April (universe is looking after us). Craig Murray – can you make contact with people in New York to have a ‘Claim of Right’ Declaration of Arbroath component to this event???? We need to make this year go international.
The SNP withdraw their MPs from UK Parliament and invite all Scotland’s MPs to withdraw with them.
we can do this, no problem, but this is a nuclear option which can be used only once
it will leave scotland without a voice in WM so the exact moment to do this is critical. while we may still need snp mp votes to pass legislation, they need to stay put for the moment.
be certain that the snp mps will have discussed this option at length, and at sometime in the future, it will happen. but it is they who will chose the moment, when it best suits the campaign. Ill leave that decision to them
as to the rest of your post, ill point you and everyone else, to the article i posted by the eminent constitutional lawyers, who really do know what they are talking about
Republicofscotland says:
13 January, 2020 at 12:33 pm
So Union Jack suit man (Ian Murray) has compared Scotland to the pedestrianised high street in Norwich.
To house Jocks, the only means left to justify their slavish adherence to the concept of “union” is to demean and belittle Scotland and to deny its very right to exist as a nation, at any and every opportunity. Bitter Together has fallen a long way from the language of equal partnership and leading the UK, hasn’t it?
admiral says:
Bitter Together has fallen a long way from the language of equal partnership and leading the UK, hasn’t it?
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true but tell us something we dont know?
this thread is about what we are going to do about?
@ SC thx for long post. Interesting article.
Here’s a useful thread via Stu’s twitter.
As we’ll get a lot of “Brexit happened, but noone noticed“ at the end of January, let me prepare you with three key dates and legal facts (Thread)
https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1216625845843955712?s=20
admiral says:
Bitter Together has fallen a long way from the language of equal partnership and leading the UK, hasn’t it?
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true but tell us something we dont know?
this thread is about what we are going to do about it?
@cappella
I already posted these dates on here a few days ago as potential days for protest
red line days
Jan 31st
june 31st (this thread says july 1st, same difference)
dec 31st
HM the Queen has been on the throne for a few weeks short of 68 years. In that time she has been served by 14 different Prime Ministers, from Churchill to Johnson. The PM enjoys a weekly audience of HM. There have been upwards of 3000 of such audiences, and all we know of them is: she once caught-out Harold Wilson, who hadn’t read the Civil Service brief about the setting-up of Milton Keynes; she reportedly “purred” when told the result of the 2014 Independence Referendum, and she was unhappy with the lengthy proroguing of Parliament and the stooshie this caused.
Public perception is that, while: “she has never put a foot wrong,” HM does not appear to have tried very hard to “guide, advise and if necessary warn”her Prime Minister. Now, this inactivity might sit nicely with the English and the concept of a Constitutional Monarchy and Parliamentary Sovereignty – ceded by the Crown back in 1689.
However, it could be argued, as Elizabeth Queen of Scots, HM has not so much never put a foot wrong, as never put a foot down. I doubt if she, as she is obliged to, bothered to warn in turn David Cameron, Theresa May and now Boris Johnson of the dangers to the Union of continuing to ignore Scotland when it comes to Brexit.
First Minister Sturgeon, to my mind, really ought to be reminding HM and the Palace officials, at every opportunity – of her duty to defend Scotland from the behaviour of a Westminster Government which has no political legitimacy in, or love for Scotland.
HM may be Sovereign in England, but, in Scotland, the People are Sovereign and as Queen of Scots, she is their servant and should be pushing her Government to obey the wishes of the sovereign people of Scotland and keep that kingdom within the EU.
I would suggest, if the FM was to play hard-ball with HM and Her advisers, remind her, she is both Queen of England and Queen of Scots, and, as such she ought to be standing-up for Scotland and getting Boris telt – to at least agree to the Section 30 to allow Indyref2.
Boris and Company can treat Scotland with disdain. They can tell all the lies they like about Scotland’s fiscal position; laugh at the SNP MPs, but, at the end of the day, they are Loyal Subjects of HM the Queen, and, if that Queen demanded they give the Scots their due respect, BoJo would not dare do anything else.
Of course, once they had agreed the Section 30, they would immediately seek, in their various ways, to undermine the honesty and validity of the referendum – but, that’s another story.
It has always been clear that English MP’s, and strangely some Scottish ones, there was never a union but a subjugation of Scotland, this is even clear from statements made at the start of the subjugation.
Now there opinion is out in the open for all to see, it matters not how Scotland votes the decision will be made by MP’s from England and returned by voters from England. At the same time when these MP’s from England decide Scotland’s future, MP’s from Scotland are barred from voting on English legislation.
I think we can see from the recent comments by Tory MP’s, they intend to use force to keep their control of Scotland, it has always been the Westminster way, and have no doubt the people of England will cheer them on.
Scottish budget plans to be announced on 6 February
(one of these) why I got two I don’t know. 🙁
://archive.is/2OFU1
https://archive.is/2OFU1#selection-1029.0-1029.51
I see “Not so pretty policies” Patel agrees Extinction Rebellion should be included on extremest group list.
Some might suggest her party should also be added to that list…
Best be mindful of this talk of Uncivil Obedience as the creep of the authoritarian state continues.
I only suggested wearing Sumo suits, surely I can’t go down for a ten stretch for that!
the great game
rules of engagement
by the book
The AUOB marches are not spontaneous. this organisation is forced to jump through hoops put in place by the respective councils to get the go ahead to hold these marches. their applications need to be posted weeks in advance, routes agreed, proof of sufficient stewardship. Also policing costs have been proposed.
we have the right to march, but such hoops are designed to discourage and thwart us. This isnt news to anyone here, but these are the rules of the game that MPs and high profile personel must abide by, otherwise there would be no AUOB marches.
by Civil Disobedience
Alister Jack said yesterday we would like to see more tory mps make announcements in scotland. good. It gives us a great media opportunity to protest their presence, one which the UK media would be there to witness and would report.
the question is…….how? such visits and the location of such announcements are only revealed 24 hrs in advance, if at all. certainly not enough time for AUOB to apply and hold a demonstation at the said location. Once again, i doubt folk on here are surprised by such cynical tactics but how do we get round this?
we could organise a flash crowd, you wouldnt get 100,000, but you would get 1-2000, certainly enough to make a noise. However, this would come under the terms of illegal assembly and be painted as harassment, as the media did with the bbc pq protests.
AUOB cannot organise such events in any official capacity otherwise the next time they apply to edinburgh council for an official march they will be told to sling their hooks!
this is the same reason john swinney left the march on saturday when he found out he was marching behind a Tory Scum Out banner. If he is not seen to condemn, he will be accused of condoning.
the same is true of all who, by needs, play by the rules.
(tory msps on twitter today are targeting all snp mps msps etc for marching in a crowd with folk holding up anti tory banners)
that doesnt mean we cant organise such illegal flash crowds, indeed the folk at AUOB would probably be in the crowd along with snp mps, albeit incognito, dressed as giant pandas etc. thats because they have to play by the rules.
Why? because all organisations need people who can speak for them in an official capacity, without fear of arrest. if they cross the line they can no longer do this. that is why the snp play by the rules
but we are not official spokesmen, and we dont have to play by the rules
this is the definition of Civil Disobedience.
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2020/01/13/chris-mccorkindale-and-aileen-mcharg-constitutional-pathways-to-a-second-scottish-independence-referendum/
This a very important read tweeted by Joanna Cherry.
The bit I can not get is that we, Scotland, must prostate ourselves and beg for this favour before the UK government, of which we are a part, and supposedly an equal partner, and be told to go away, your just an annoyance. And you have no power.
The only other partner, England, re Robert Peffers,says NO.
I’m unable to explain what I mean adequately.
“it will leave scotland without a voice in WM so the exact moment to do this is critical. while we may still need snp mp votes to pass legislation, they need to stay put for the moment.”
But that’s the point, our MP,s may be in Westminster but they have no traction, as we all know, laughed at and jeered at every sitting.
In spite of contributing all the gold and blood, lots of blood, “no great mischief if they fall”, we are viewed as serfs. Well it’s time for the serfs to rise and dispute with their alleged masters
Here’s a tale most will not have heard.
1945, Britain, after the Japanese surrender, finds itself in control of the far-east, under one Mountbatten.
One of the countries freed is Vietnam. Now the French want Vietnam, French Indo-China, back under colonial rule.
Roosevelt is against it, but he is tired, and sick, he gives in.
This is the bit that opens your eyes, a pre-run of Diego Garcia. To keep the Viet in their place, Mountbatten rearms the Japanese, under British control, to do just that. Then provides transport for the French forces to come out from Europe to recontrol the colony. And,the French were funded by the USA to do it.
Perfidious Albion, by Christ it is.
Talk softly but carry a big stick, if only we had.
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2020/01/13/chris-mccorkindale-and-aileen-mcharg-constitutional-pathways-to-a-second-scottish-independence-referendum/
This a very important and interesting read tweeted by Joanna Cherry.
Socrates MacSporran says:
First Minister Sturgeon, to my mind, really ought to be reminding HM and the Palace officials, at every opportunity – of her duty to defend Scotland from the behaviour of a Westminster Government which has no political legitimacy in, or love for Scotland.
——————
nothing i disagree with, im sure nicola has take legal advice on this issue and i hope she is able to pursue this angle
however, this thread is about what we should be doing?
And the Vietnamese didnae say, well, can we not talk about this over tea and cakes.
Kenny J says:
The bit I can not get is that we, Scotland, must prostate ourselves and beg for this favour before the UK government,
—————
scotland doesnt, only our representatives are obliged to play by the rules
scotland, and her people, are sovereign
what we do, and have always done, is for us to chose
@ Socrates MacSporran.
The crown has a key role here if we choose to make it so. I cannot think of anything that would be viewed more by Westminster as civil disobedience than ordering the crown before the Scottish Parliament to explain her part in placing the Scots under the English, aka the Brexit vote. Mind you there other questions to ask, the transfer of 6,000 square miles of Scottish seas, the McCrone report. I have no idea what the SG has planned, but its not short of ammunition.
A protest on Jan 31st would be good if directed against Gauleiter Union Jack. Does anyone know where he conducts his anti-Scottish Secretary duties?
Thanks Stoker for your link at 8:40 am today.
” BBC Staff Now Reporting BBC to Ofcom https://twitter.com/MartineMavi/status/1214184143178911745 ”
WOW, and the Whistleblower has worked in the BBC for 17 years.
A must read for all Apologists and Enablers plus of course We the ordinary woman and man in the street.
Trust the BBC here and down there,that is the question.
@capella
The Scotland Office is currently sited in Melville Crescent, but by 2020 it will have moved to the New Waverley site, close to the Royal Mile and Edinburgh’s Waverley rail station.
It will house almost 3,000 UK Government workers from the Scotland Office and other departments – including staff from HM Treasury, HM Revenue and Customs, the Information Commissioner’s Office and the Office of the Advocate General.
Direct link to article:
https://tinyurl.com/rpoxxq8
1 Melville Crescent to be precise
Constitutional query for you to consider… If the Scottish Government both in Holyrood and Westminster walked out, and called a Sovereign Scottish Parliament to sit OUTSIDE both Westminster and Holyrood, with pledged allegiance to the sovereign people of Scotland and forsaking all others, then wouldn’t the Scotland Act and all accordant “devolved” legislation as UK legislation become irrelevant?
Even if it meant a snap Scottish Election to a new assembly, as a government representing a sovereign people, there would be nothing whatsoever still falling under the UK/ Westminster Umbrella.
If that “rebel” assembly cited various Westminster breaches of the Act of Union a due provocation to resile the Union, the “rebel” assembly wouldn’t even be a rebel assembly, but simply the government and Parliament of Scotland.. It wouldn’t necessarily have Nicola Sturgeon at it’s head either…
@Breeks
publicity stunts are our job, not nicola’s
talking about ,civil disobedience I hope we can win our freedom without violence as Gahdi said I am willing to die for my cause but I am not willing to kill for it and he won in the end ???
Blair Paterson
no one is suggesting violence, why? because it doesnt have support from yes movement.
the discussion here is what are the limits of civil disobedience being proposed?
by definition, they need to be agreed by consensus of opinion within the movement
what is proposed is
Civil Disobedience is now on the cards but, for the moment, this should be limited to the following.
1. no action which inconveniences the scottish public only
2. no action which damages the scottish economy only
3. actions which follows 1,2 which keeps the indyref2 profile as high as possible is encouraged, even if it breaks the law, is permitted.
4. actions which follows 1,2 which embarrass and inconvenience westminster, the bbc and the unionists is encouraged
this doesnt preclude more radical actions in the future but merely states the boundaries agreed by the majority at the moment
@ SC – I looked up Melville Crescent. It looks very nice and surrounded by embassies. But not really prominent enough for a protest I think and also, he is unlikely to ever be there. The Waverley site is not open yet. So probably Holyrood would be the best place to protest. Perhaps an impromptu protest would be the best idea.
I’m not in favour of Craig Murray’s idea of tearing down the Union Jack, much as I detest it. The media would have a field day with that. Peaceful protest is what is needed atm, not gestures.
Having said that, I probably wouldn’t make it to Edinburgh in the middle of winter. So I’m wary of advocating a course of action for other people. A case of “Why Don’t You? Good idea – why don’t YOU..?”.
I also agree with the idea of having Tommy Sheridan as a speaker. There must be a way of allowing him to rally support. More “Freedom Come All Ye” than “Hope Over Fear”. Alex Salmond too (assuming the trial is a stitch up). I obviously can’t know the truth apart from refusing to believe what the lying press tell me.
Perhaps a Truth and Reconciliation hearing could be organised in the future to bring all that’s hidden to light. Dispel the lies.
“Why Don’t You?
because im trying to reach a consensus of opinion as to what action to take next. not being able to turn up doesnt negate you having an opinion
Capella says:
I also agree with the idea of having Tommy Sheridan as a speaker.
so do i but the proof in the pudding is if the yes movement respond to his call.
i hope he is reading this and steps forward. whether he is successful remains to be seen
Civil disobedience.
Why not have a ceremonial burning of “the Butcher’s Apron”, say Declaration of Abroath day in every village, town & city throughout our Nation.
If properly organised, imagine the publicity it would engender. Maybe encourage the English to think of their own flag.
Well, it’s a thought. No violence, just a severe indication of how we really feel.
On a more longer term basis….
What about an anti Army recruitment campaign.
Defence is reserved…. So it’s a Westminster problem not a Holyrood one.
The MSM have the UK forces as some sort of holy grail and we’d surely generate publicity..
Why let Scotland’s Son’s and Daughters join the Army of a Government that won’t let their people go?
As WGD is sayin the notion that we’re in a “voluntary” Union is dead! We are ( apparently ) not being allowed to vote our way out and that’s what we need to start highlighting as publicly as we can
And if we are to act the reserved powers is where we need to look to make Scotland ungovernable for Westminster.
Starting with persuading young Scots not to join their forces anymore???
Capella @ 3.14
That’s no exactly true ….
Some people who can see an opportunity and provide the ” How to” information,for various reasons can’t always take part.
I’ve personally got two ( I think ) real dozy’s but can only be involved in one!!!!
And another two I’m not physically fit enough for 🙂
Sandy
Some people see burning a flag like burning a bible and will get violent to stop you doing it
Not a good idea
You would have fighting in every town and city
terence callachan
agreed
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2020/01/13/chris-mccorkindale-and-aileen-mcharg-constitutional-pathways-to-a-second-scottish-independence-referendum/
In the light of this piece, so much of what has been written in the past few years about the prospects of impending Scottish Independence has been like sending a bundle of flyers for overseas holidays to a man who has spent his life in jail, and who has very little prospect of early release.
Those of you suddenly itchy to do something…
I believe somebody might have mentioned it in passing a few weeks ago, but maybe if somebody was to create a new political party to really push for Independence, it might focus the minds of our day dreamers in the SNP, and shake them out of their complacency and torpor.
Maybe call it the “Swings” over Scotland Party, to try to “swing” the balance of power “over” to Independence..
I don’t think it would be controversial at all, and we might pick up some list seats if we find ourselves still under the yoke of UK Electoral protocol…
Maybe it’s something people would like to discuss calmly and rationally in an intelligent and thoughtful manner.
Boudicca 2pm
This link you posted
The only problem I have with it is the para I’ve repeated below where it refers to the parent state ?
Personally I do not consider england to be the parent state
I do not consider Britain or U.K. to be a parent state either because Scotland is part of both
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2020/01/13/chris-mccorkindale-and-aileen-mcharg-constitutional-pathways-to-a-second-scottish-independence-referendum/
Why Does Legality Matter?
A state may become independent in one of two ways: either with the consent or at least acquiescence of the parent state, in accordance with its domestic constitutional requirements, or via a unilateral declaration of independence (UDI).
That article by McCorkindale and McHarg that Joanna Cherry tweeted makes for a depressing read.
They basically say it’s up to Westminster to allow us independence or even the chance to be independent FFS.
But wait, there’s more. If Scotland vote for the SNP referendum mandate in 2021 there’s a chance that they (Westminster) might consider it a wee bit more seriously than they considered the previous mandates.
Did I say FFS already?
I’m in complete agreement with Peter A. Bell on this.
What a fucking mess this is turning into, we’re being softened up for no referendum in the foreseeable future.
FFS again!
“ one -Scot “ says @1120 am “ Alister Jack says that Nicola Sturgeon won’t see another Independence referendum in her life time …that sounds like a threat to me it’s pure provocation”
Exactly right “ one-Scot” , it is apparent now that is the Boris/ Jack strategy, to frustrate the Independence movement and eventually to provoke “ civil disruption & disobedience “ and to bring “ strife” to the streets of our country . Thereafter , no doubt “ agents provocateurs “ will be deployed to further agitate the situation . If eventually property is damaged and /or even “ limited” offences such as “ breach of the peace” follows on then they will have obtained their objective . Thereafter , the will deploy a propaganda offensive via the state propaganda apparatus to categorise the wider independence movement as “ hotheads & lawbreakers etc and will challenge the SNP government to condemn this civil strife . They will blame the SNP for what’s happening and the further objective will be to degrade support for independence down from the present polling of circa 50-55 percent down to the “ hardcore” 2014 level of 45 pc ( thus all the good work done in converting the “ soft no’s “ will be undone ).
Objective accomplished by Boris/ Jack who will then have given Rennie, Carlaw & Leonard the means to launch a ferocious attack on our FM and SNP government ahead of Holyrood 2021.
Massive peaceful cheerful demonstrations have succeeded in helping move Indy support over the 50 percent threshold . Cool heads are required “ as the pressure mounts “ .The Westminster Tory government are now actively “ goading” our Independence movement with recent comments . Strife on our streets would “ play into their hands” in my opinion.
Liz g 3.42pm encourage young scots not to join the army by telling them they are joining the English army/navy/air force.
Johnson has two weeks left in which to formally reply to the Scottish government, if as he says he will reply in the negative he is in breach of *Smith Commission article 18 dated 27 November 2014* and other articles signed by all political parties at Westminster and witnessed by Lord Smith of Kelvin who was nominated by Westminster as the arbiter of the Commission
Article 18 states *It is agreed that nothing in this document prevents Scotland becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose*
The people of Scotland are in the government of Scotland a representation of the choice of the people, there is no ambiguity in that this is a legal tenet of democracy, dismissal of these priciples of law by another country is an act of aggression whether in or out of a political union
This document supersedes all previous documents and MSP and Deputy Presiding officer Linda Fabiani who sat on the Smith Commission is moving this forward at this moment
Is the Tory government in England prepared for their own appointed Noble Lord to be taken to court on their behalf and proven to be international liars as well as illegal despots
The SNP Scottish government and Nicola Sturgeon as First Minister has the duty and opportunity to destroy all credibility of the Westminster Tories in court and make them the embarrassement and object of derision to the world, the question must be *Will they do it*
We have two weeks left to find out
On a personal note I believe the Tories are gambling that an outright refusal forever by them will dispirit the Independence cause and support for the SNP will crumble and fade leaving the Tories in the position of *I told you so* when referring to Scottish Independence support being low hence Alister Jack’s stupid public statement of refusal on TV, Alister Jack is being used in exactly the same way as Mundell was used to parrot Tory messages then have a look at the following effect then tailor a different response altogether, as they did with both Mundell and Davidson, again hence all the flip flopping by both of these actors because the policy at *head office8 kept changing according to whatever new information was coming in
Keep the heid for a couple of weeks, I truly believe there’s more to come
I retain the overall sense that Scotland is going to require additional outside help, perhaps in the form of a surprising turn of events or circumstances elsewhere, before Independence becomes a truly realistic possibility.
The weight behind this argument lies in Westminster’s ruthless Colonial history and instincts, together with the English Establishment’s addiction to colonial exploitation, added to Scotland’s abiding immeasurable wealth of very valuable resources, on which England’s Ruling Classes and Institutions already depend.
The Act of Union appears to have been deliberately converted by Westminster into an irretrievable legal and constitutional fankle, to Scotland’s tragic disadvantage and to England’s Imperial increase.
All of a sudden, civil obstruction to English Rule and commerce doesn’t seem like a bad idea.
Terence,
McCorkindale and McHarg know exactly Scotland’s position in the U.K.
They boil it down to that it matters not a jot what Scotland thinks because Westminster hold all the cards.
Is this the sort of advice the SNP have been listening to?
It would certainly explain a lot.
Terence C. 4.08 pm.
That rag does not represent a nation. It is of no significance
If I had the cash, I’d start producing toilet rolls with that symbol of imperialism on every sheet whereupon it could be utilised in it’s proper place on a daily basis.
Imagine 50% of our population using it.
Dreams! (Can come reality.)
Incidentally, worse things have happened in Scotland with no rioting in the streets. Yes, we have a small proportion of knuckle-draggers but good Heilan’ bobbies would soon sort them out. (As in “No Mean City”.)
I’m with Breeks on the creation of another Scottish Independence Party, designed to compete for the List Vote alone.
In fact I’d go so far as to say that failure to do so would constitute a staggering piece of ineptitude by the Independence Movement.
Breeks says:
maybe if somebody was to create a new political party………
————
this is already in hand breeks
————
North chiel says:
it is apparent now that is the Boris/ Jack strategy, to frustrate the Independence movement and eventually to provoke “ civil disruption & disobedience “ and to bring “ strife” to the streets of our country . Thereafter , no doubt “ agents provocateurs “ will be deployed to further agitate the situation
—————-
probably true, but then again, that is why i am posting on this thread in an attempt to limit the actions of our supporters.
many have called on actions to be ramped up, including stu, thing is, we need to define exactly what is meant by such statements
one cant call for civil disobedience without defining what one means. the yes supporters wont sign a blank cheque and it isnt fair to ask them to do so.
i have posted some simple guide lines, it is for you and everyone else to either support them or give reasons why not?
these guidelines are not fixed in stone and are open to editing.
but, like it or not, this is a conversation we need to have
manandboy says:
13 January, 2020 at 4:43 pm
The weight behind this argument lies in Westminster’s ruthless Colonial history and instincts, together with the English Establishment’s addiction to colonial exploitation, added to Scotland’s abiding immeasurable wealth of very valuable resources, on which England’s Ruling Classes and Institutions already depend.
I’m afraid I disagree with you manandboy. IF Scotland fails to capitalise on the unconstitutional outrage of Brexit, I believe the blame lies squarely at the foot of our own miserable and spineless government, bereft of initiative or ambition. What hope is there for international recognition of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty when our own elected “government” is happy to cock it’s leg and piss all over it?
But hey, two weeks to go. Ian Blackford says Scotland won’t be forced out of Europe against it’s will, and Nicola apparently has a plan for when she knows the details of Brexit. Must be ready to strike any day now eh? Hold, hold, hold and all that bollocks eh?
The McHarg article argues from a position that the UK is the parent state and Scotland would be seceding from the UK parent state.
The article makes clear, it is written with regard to UK constitutional law.
What exactly is that? I would say, for UK read English constitutional law.
We know the basis of English / UK constitutional law: Sovereignty of the Crown in UK Parliament.
From that perspective the article makes total sense: We are colonial subjects of Empress Elizabeth’s UK Govt.
So, based on that assumption: Scotland either is given permission to be independent by our Imperial masters or declares UDI like Kosovo breaking away from Serbia.
However, UK / English constitutional law has NEVER been challenged. Scottish legal sovereignty has never been asserted in a court of law.
So, the whole article is premised on the fundamental assumption the current UK constitutional law is also the law of Scotland.
——————-
The fact is, the status of Scotland’s sovereignty as part of the UK has never been legally tested in a modern court of law.
——————-
It’s never been legally established whether Scotland would be seceding from the UK or legally dissolving the UK.
——————-
If the Scots Law position is now the same as England’s aka UK constitutional law, then what of the Claim of Right 1689?
The Claim of Right is still constitutional law as it has never been repealed. It’s what gives legitimacy to the current House of Windsor Queen Elizabeth sitting on the Stuart’s throne.
It asserts the Crown is answerable to the people and the Crown can be sacked by the people and this right was legally exercised.
Let us not forget the background to how that became the established Scots Law: decades of civil war between the Crown and the people of Scotland in the 1600s, during which thousands of Scots martyrs defended and upheld the principle that the Crown does not have sovereign power in Scotland by some Divine Right.
Yet, UK constitutional law says: UK Parliament is sovereign because of the sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament. UK constitutional law follows the continuing English Law of Divine Right of English monarchs.
So, how can the UK Crown be sovereign in Parliament if in Scots Law, the Crown is subject to the people, so sovereignty lies with the people?
UK constitutional law simply disregards this vital aspect of UK constitutional law because it’s Scots Law. Many in Scotland – those at the top – also want to disregard this too because they want power concentrated in their hands.
(Those who spend their life getting to the top rarely do it to assert power also lies with those at the bottom and middle of society).
So,interesting as the legal opinion is, it is just opinion based on interpretation of “British Empire Law.”
manandboy says:
on the creation of another Scottish Independence Party, designed to compete for the List Vote alone.
——–
since ive argued for, well ever, for tactical voting on the list, it wont surprise you to hear i agree 110%
where i failed before was trying to convince folk that the vehicul for such tactical list votes was the greens. they arnt. the yes movement wont and now never will back the greens on the list.
snp list voters need someone they trust before they will vote for them
the name of this party, the branding if you will, is of less importance but all things considered, i think the YES party has more traction than the WOS party. stu is like marmite in this movement, a bit like tommy sheridan. personally i like both of them but i recognise they turn off a lot of supporters.
what is more important is the candidates. the majority can be unknowns, carry less baggage etc. hell, we could even stand people dressed as giant pandas and penguins and they would get elected. but the front, the leader of this party, the spokesperson is someone who is trusted by the vast majority of yes supporters.
my choice would be WGD
Breeks says:
IF Scotland fails to capitalise on the unconstitutional outrage of Brexit, I believe the blame lies squarely at the foot of our own miserable and spineless government
———————-
and the people of scotland including you and me both breeks
The Scotland Office.
Apologies to all, I remember a big shiny new building in Leith before moving from Embra, I stupidly thought it was the Scottish Office, hence my previous posts regarding protesting said building, away from blocking traffic etc.
A quick google search, 1 Melville Place 3,000 people working there? Does it sink 500 feet into the ground?
Civil disobedience , start burning flags? it will get you nowhere.
By all accounts “we” the Nation have a mandate, and are sovereign, its the SNP who are our legal voice, looking at post above regarding Ms Cherry, if this is correct , the membership card goes in the bin.(our local Indy Hub is more informative than the local SNP hub). If a new Indy party has to be formed and we start from scratch,I will not see an Indy Scotland in my life time (57).
I will never give up the dream, but after the amazing atmosphere on Saturday and then maybe our “legal voice” is wavering at the prospect of “having to shout a bit louder” for the nation they represent, what’s the point of the SNP? Nicola you better do something.
“The Sovereign Indy Nation is behind you” its up to you for how long?
A wee warning. “Don’t Take Us For Mugs”
Colin Alexander
once again, im happy to leave such legal issues to the lawyers and the SG, they are more qualified to decide the best legal route to oppose WM.
i will continue to fight on the ground designated for me to fight on
On the 31st January the First minister of Scotland should declare that a new referendum on Scottish independence will be held on 18th September 2020 no ifs or buts. If the First Minister of Scotland and her government have no intention of fighting for the cause that they were specifically given a mandate to do then they should stand down. A new Scottish election can then take place, fight it purely on regaining our pride and belief on an Independent Scotland and if the Independence parties win power then declare Scottish Independence. Simple, put the ball in their court Johnston, Jack his ("Quizmaster" - Ed) and all the other Tories. Let them try to stop us and see what rath that brings.
The Cat – 110%?……really
I think we will put that down to your afternoon drinking.
Old Pete
such grandstanding requires a backing from a majority of the people. im not saying no, im pointing out we dont yet have 50%, or at least until we see a poll (which we havent yet, not since bojo won)
when we do, you mind find opinion swing behind your suggestion. it is a question of confidence
ahundredthidiot says:
The Cat – 110%?……really
———
aye, a technique in emphasis, no booze required
George Kerevan’s article in todays National hits the nail squarely on the head. We need someone with some fire in their belly upfront to fight against the English establishment, where are all the government officials when we keep getting all the lies spouted day after day?
“Once in a lifetime” Gers, 55% didn’t vote for the SNP.
It’s looking more and more like the pc brigade have taken over.
I was rebuffed, when, after the Edinburgh march I complained about Nicola Stugeon not appearing at the parliament,for a few minutes, to give the marchers a wave, seems I was not too far off the mark about the powers that be not wanting to be involved in any other way forward but theirs.
I warned at the time that peoples patience does not last for ever and SNP leadership was heading for a comeuppence.
By the way I don’t do facebook or twitter so shout all you like I don’t care nor react.
John Jones
once again, this thread isnt about what nicola should be doing. its about what we should be doing
Colin Alexander
I replied to another comment a few weeks back which talked of secession in terms of Scotland seceding from the UK. I understand that secession is the Act of severing oneself from another.
However, I cannot see how we would be seceding from something that would cease to exist at the point that we seceded.
Surely seceding means that ‘one’ is leaving something that is continuing after you leave e.g. Meghan and Harry are seceding from the Royal Family which, in theory, should continue unaffected by that secession.
The Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England are equal partners in the Union of 1707 which created the United Kingdom by that Union.
The Union is like a marriage.
When couples divorce one doesn’t secede from the continuing Parent spouse ( both are equally capable of being regarded as the Parent state by the way); the married state does not continue and the union that was formed by the marriage is broken; equally, one or other signatory can leave that union at their will if they feel ‘abused’.
I don’t get this notion that we would be seceding simply because when we leave, there will be NO UK , only the ongoing, recreated and weakened Kingdom of England.
@ SC 3.31 – I wasn’t getting at you! I was talking about myself suggesting all sorts of things for other people to do.
@ Liz g – exactly 🙂
Cut the chains aff the unicorns!
Hunners o’ them roaming free would be a site to behold and raise awareness in an entertaining way due to the inevitable conversations that would follow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LKBRSeTkX4
sigh…sight…although I guess site would work.
Entirely agree with Schrödinger’s cat @0509pm , a “YES” party ( representative of the massive grass roots movement) needs to be formed urgently to contest the list at the next Holyrood election , and to specifically target the unionists and to degrade their “ representation” within Holyrood . Further , if our FM wishes to possibly bring forward a Holyrood election to later this year ( not sure on the legal aspects) as a possible “ de facto vote “ to thereafter set a referendum date ( or for other urgent/ tactical reasons) ,it becomes necessary to have this party in place sooner rather than later.
tx North chiel
if the yes movement did swing behind a yes party on the list, regardless of who leads it or what it is called, unknowns would get elected.
dont dismiss the publicity coup of murdo getting beaten by someone dressed as a giant panda 🙂
Capella says:
I wasn’t getting at you! I was talking about myself suggesting all sorts of things for other people to do.
———
it wasnt a slap down either. im just trying to keep this thread on track. no insult intended capella
https://www.bbc.co.uk/weatherwatchers/report/c7c845b1-24a8-461b-9700-5ccf873c2285/
Reminds me of Scotland’s desire for Independence.
Don’t know if this has already been mentioned.
A private members bill, the Referendums Criteria Bill [HL] 2019-20, is making its way through the House oF Lords. It concerns constitutional and parliamentary arranagements for referendums in the United Kingdom.
Quotas in the HOC and HOL for agreeing to a referendum are much steeper. For the referendum to be valid = or over 55% of regisatered voters have to participate; there has to be 60% voting in favour.
It applies to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
I think that applying to NI contravenes the belfast/Good Friday Agreement which states the cut-off for irish reunification in any “Border Poll” is 50%+1 assent. So I don’t see it gaining any traction there.
If it passes, it could well come into force for Sec 30 and Indyref2. I don’t know how much it differs in procedures from the current Scottish parliament’s Referendum Bill (Act?)and whether Westminster outweighs any Scottish regulations.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/58-01/009/5801009.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2B57Ak1kDLElZTfdfDGzZVlT4yn2Ek_PRUoB8uSE4BxG7EKwJLyigWI60
If only it was so quick and easy for us! One is currently still free to imagine…
“Harry and MeghanScotland to begin ‘new life’ after ‘transition period’” says Queen.“Although we would have preferred
themScotland to remain full-timeworkingripped off members of theroyal familyUK, we respect and understand their wish to live a more independent life as afamilyNation…”Ben Madigan,
If they’re after a super majority of 60% or whatever, maybe we could change the question from leaving the status quo to remaining then we’d only need 40% (if only).
SC,
To stay on thread,
Perhaps we could use foreign polling companies (Iceland, Ireland, Norway) instead of British ones as I don’t trust them one bit but maybe that’s just me.
Brestplate @ 4.47
That’s exactly who the Scottish Government are looking to for advice and there’s another 3/4 of them up to and including Tompkins.
They are the the current academics in Scottish Constitutional Law.
While taught in the “British” system their advice is honestly given and as balanced as they can make it. ..
They are, if ye like, the navigators of the direction of the Scottish Government/SNP. But they are NOT infallible…
This is why I’m saying that if the SNP are the vehicle to independence we,the Yes movement, need to start driving it.
The Professors are sayin that the solution should be political and not legal and they’re not wrong….
Fortunately the Yes movement is a political movement and not a legal one 🙂
Therefore the SNP need to start listening to us, arguably the most successful political movement in these islands.
Thing is I’m not angry with the SNP for our current situation!
They have done just about all they can without risking Holyrood.
My anger is for the Scots who sit back and let us do all the heavy lifting and won’t stand up for their own fucking right’s.
We’ve been treated like shit especially these last few years..
Where’s the outrage?
Just how much more are they willing to take?
As for those bastards in Holyrood who sit there knowing fine well what Scotland is voting for and think they can ignore it…… Don’t get me started….
We definitely need another Scottish Party to give those House Scots their jotters…..
Meg Merrilees @ 6.02 pm.
Slight amendment to your post.
The Kingdom of Scotland & the Kingdom of England WERE PURPORTEDLY equal partners in the Union of 1707****
Don’t mean to be pedantic but there are those who need to be continually reminded.
The proposed new cross party/independence/truth and reconciliation (snuck that in) body – or any existing one if still active – could be the organiser of the new List party. It could also organise rallies and impromtu demos when appropriate. The sole object would be to secure independence by all means necessary.
Obviously we are working to an Indyref2 in the autumn, but after that?
Has anyone heard from the group which Elaine C Smith and Robin MacAlpine organised?
The Scottish government must see the frustration that thousands of people are feeling just now they have to engage more with the people who put them in power tell them exactly where we are regarding our legal power, they must realise the effort thousands of patriots are putting in, all they need to know is that the Scottish government are behind them.
The news where we are:
Any dissatisfaction folk are thinking of should be first aimed at the media in Scotland, their refusal to report ongoing events indicates to many that nothing important’s actually happening, so how can you become outraged if no one tells you what to be outraged about
Tonight’s STV Flagship programme Scotland tonight is to focus on the Royals and how worried we all are at The Sussex’s impending financial status from lots of £millions to a bit less £millions and the worry for us all that the British Labour party with only one MP in Scotland can survive and who will the next leader of that party of irrelevance might be and wil it be a leader who will focus on the Union (see how they do that)
The BBC in Scotland are indicating their line of attack on Derek McKay in that he’s *at it* in complaining about the English government keeping hold of our taxes and postponing the UK budget twice until March, so Mr Mc Kay must just get on with spending Scotlands budget which he doesn’t yet have because it’s languishing in the English treasury (SNP grievance to complain)
Oh and btw the Greens have started their mince again about not supporting the budget unless their are plenty of save the parrot, knatterjack toad and cycle paths on Ardrossen beach policies in it when they know perfectly well the position the Finance Minister is in
That’s opportunistic blackmail from Harvie ….again
If there’s a reason for the SNP to stand down and force a Scottish election that’s the one I would favour
It’s the TV and print media who are ripping the Arse out of Scotland by not reporting the truth or anything of relevance to Scotland, and I can’t say what I would do with the lot of them because I’d be arrested
I’m afraid the tenets of the legal opinion fell apart when I got to UK Constitutional law, because it doesn’t exist. Surprised that the likes of Cherry fall in behind this opinion, but it perhaps indicates just how deep and invasive indoctrination has taken hold within the legal profession or maybe not.
I always keep the current WOS page(s) in a tab (or tabs) and I read up to what is current. I leave that tab extant, while I go off to do other stuff.
When I go back to WOS, I reload the appropriate tab, and it sits at the last comment I saw, with all the new comments underneath.
The reason I mention this is because it seems a number of commenters start a fresh tab when they come back to WOS, and read backwards, ie from newest to oldest, until something makes them comment, without seeing what has gone before.
A number of comments have given the link for the Chris McCorkindale and Aileen McHarg article, as if it was new. My problem is that schrodingers cat, at 12:21 pm, PASTED the whole article on this page – no need to go to the page. I read it.
Schrodingers cat has received no thanks for posting it. Not fair, really…
Meg merrilees @ 6.02pm
So, it can be argued, Scotland and England are in a sort of Union loosely comparable to the European Union. eg that the Union involves the voluntary agreement of countries that remain sovereign in an ongoing international treaty. With Scotland and England both ceding sovereignty to the UK Parliament but able to exercise individual sovereignty at any time they choose to do so and so reject UK sovereignty.
The difference being Scotland and England ARE the UK Union, so if either individually exercises sovereignty, the Union is effectively changed or dead.
However, there are alternative views, examples are:
1. Scotland died and England continued and so inherited Scotland to become the United Kingdom of GB (later GB and Ireland).
2. Scotland and England both died at the point of the GB Union to create a new state.
So, with Scottish independence:
1. The UK dies at the point of Scottish independence. Therefore, Scotland and the remainder of what was the UK become two NEW states.
Or
2. The UK reverts to the pre-Union legal status: separate political states: Scotland / England (with N.I. and Wales being colonial possessions of the English Crown). ( But what of UK possessions such as Gibraltar, UK debts and UK responsibilities, how are these dealt with?)
or
3. The UK continues with Scotland seceding from the UK by UK Imperial consent (because a Scottish UDI would not be recognised by the continuing UK), so only Scotland becomes a NEW state.
In 2012-2014, the SNP and the UK Govt skirted around theses issues. 2020 is very different.
By going out of her way to insist s30 is the only “legal way” she clearly signals that Scotland is a subservient region of the UK state or status 3.
The SNP fought for 3 years for the UK state to remain in the EU. The SNP even offered to abandon indyref2 if Scotland could remain in the EU’s Single Market and Customs Union as part of the UK.
The UK State no longer pretends it’s a voluntary Union of Equals: it now asserts Scotland has no right to an indyref or to hold referendums without UK State permission.
The SNP aren’t arguing a legal Claim of Right 1689. They aren’t arguing the people of Scotland are legally sovereign (they imply the opposite).
They argue UK Parliament is sovereign but have a “moral duty” to respect Scottish democracy.
@ BDTT – ahem – I thanked SC !!!
Hi Capella.
Och, it wiz a’ the links that washed over me!
BTW:
Keeping up with my Facebook news feed and the possibilty of “UDI” is being mega-spouted.
As we all know here, “UDI” is a non-starter. Here’s the comment I posted to refute. Perchance more of us should jump on the idea of “UDI” whenever we see it raising its head?
“UDI is a device whereby a PART of a country secedes from its “parent” country.
Scotland does not have a “parent” country – it is an equal partner in a union, akin to a marriage. Divorce is on the cards.
The majority of Scots have to support the dissolution of The Treaty Of Union, then Scotland will be independent.
I wish peeps would stop using the term “UDI”…”
Brian Doonthetoon says:
Schrodingers cat has received no thanks for posting it. Not fair, really…
—————
sobs uncontrollably
Capella says:
@ BDTT – ahem – I thanked SC !!!
🙂
Dr Jim says:
That’s opportunistic blackmail from Harvie ….again
that is why i was wrong to back the greens as an alternative indy list party. yes voters didnt trust them in 2016 and certainly wont back them any time in the future
This may well have been posted before but well worth a re post.
‘We take our inspiration from the 1951 Scottish Covenant and use this opportunity to thank John MacCormick, Ian Hamilton QC and the 1198 of their fellow Scots who gathered in Edinburgh on 29th October 1949 to launch The Scottish Covenant for Home Rule – thank you all for your vision 70 years ago, we hope to do you proud by emulating your approach to exercising our democratic right as ordinary people.
The world has moved on since then, and we now live in a digital world where coming together as one is much easier facilitated than it was just last century, pre-millenium. Today, we have Distributed Ledger Technology available to us and the ability to Digitally Record each eligible indvidual’s affirmation to this Covenant on a permanent and immutable Public Blockchain, unable to be hidden away in the National Archives. (For more on the history of the 1951 Scottish Covenant, check the History page on this website.)’
This also from the website:
‘A People’s Path to Independence (without a Referendum)
The purpose of a Referendum is to formally document a verifiable majority in support of a particular course of action, but it is not the only way to do so – The Digital Scottish Covenant 2019 (“the Covenant”) will deliver the same end result, a verifiable majority of the Scottish People in support of ending the UK Union.
As the Covenant gathers support, we will provide a facility for those who have signed the Covenant to take their Seat as a Member of The People’s Assembly (“the Assembly”) using their Transaction ID from the Blockchain to verify they have Signed the Covenant – the Admin Team will provide regular progress updates to the Assembly and members can use that Platform to co-ordinate activities to push the Covenant forward. We will also launch and facilitate other pieces of work on HOW Scotland will withdraw from the UK Union, and The People of Scotland can work on these Transition Plans together, as one, through the Assembly.
As the Covenant begins to head towards Majority Support from the Scottish Electorate, we will provide a facility for Assembly members to register as Candidates for The People’s Commission (“the Commission”) and campaign for votes from the Assembly to represent The People of Scotland after completion and submission of the Covenant – the structure of the Commission is still being worked on, but the 1951 Covenant started with 1200 ordinary people and we are aiming to finish the 2019 Covenant with the same number, ensuring that every single constituency & region across the whole of Scotland is represented.
The Commission, as elected by the Assembly, will be responsible for deciding what formal actions to take to ensure the Covenant, as signed by an overwhelming and verifiable majority of Scotland by this point in the process, is adopted and implemented by Scotland’s Elected Representatives – there are many paths this can take, depending on how our Elected Representatives react to the Covenant, but no course of action will be ruled out and decisions on which actions are pursued will be made by the Commission through a democratic process of voting on the Blockchain.
This year, 2020, is shaping up to be a very eventful year now that the most right-wing version of the Tories imaginable are back in power at Westminster, and Scotland could conceivably find itself facing a cliff-edge hard Brexit alongside a lot of other (UK) Constitutional change outlined in the Tory Manifesto (Pages 47 & 48, Protecting Our Democracy, for reference)
It is CRITICAL that Scotland leaves the UK Union as early as is practicably possible, therefore we urge you to please spread word of this Engagement to every corner of the Land, impress upon your fellow Scots that We CAN do this, We MUST do this, We SHALL do this, for Scotland!’
https://digitalcovenant.co.uk
Brian Doonthetoon or anyone
Assume I’m someone who knows nothing about Scotland and the UK. (Which isn’t hard to do, I know).
Convince me that LEGALLY Scotland is a partner in a union of equals with England.
(Without relying on YOUR personal opinion).
It is interesting is it no that Joanna Cherry has said,and no for the first time.
No One is above the Law in the Scottish System!
The two academics speak of not taking Westminster to court but make no mention of the Crown…
If she signs us out of the EU she has acted against the will of the Scots
Jist sayin!
Hi Colin Alexander at 8:30 pm.
You typed,
“Brian Doonthetoon or anyone
Assume I’m someone who knows nothing about Scotland and the UK. (Which isn’t hard to do, I know).
Convince me that LEGALLY Scotland is a partner in a union of equals with England.”
The Treaty Of Union says so, dear boy.
“The Treaty Of Union says so, dear boy”. (that LEGALLY Scotland is a partner in a union of equals with England.
I’m not challenging that, I’m asking to be convinced.
So could anyone please refer me to WHERE it says that in the Treaty of Union. Ta.
@ K1 – thx for the link. Will check it out. We maybe have the structure in place and don’t realise it.
@ Liz g.
” no ‘one’s is above the law.
Absolutely no one.
@ Colin Alexander
” The SNP aren’t arguing a legal claim of right 1689 ”
Eh, yes they have.
My thinking too Capella, this is in line with what is being discussed, but to have a ‘means’ of widespread agreement on any action taken from a majority ‘blockchain’ vote, and a central hub that any Scot can vote from knowing that their vote counts…that’s democracy in action.
When you look explore the link, they are looking for volunteers to help those amongst us who may not know how to go about getting on the blockchain. From all over Scotland, we surely already have hundreds of thousands of us who would be able to achieve this, to get the covenant and assembly in place within a few short weeks, surely this is possible?
The whole point is to give our elected reps these verified digital signatures and tell them as sovereign Scots what we want and if they are not willing to act on our behalf we then have a commission in place to take whatever action we think appropriate to forward our cause?
We become the movement in action:
‘…but no course of action will be ruled out and decisions on which actions are pursued will be made by the Commission through a democratic process of voting on the Blockchain.’
I do hope the Greens crash the Scottish budget and we move to a Scottish Parliament election
Stu I do hope you have a team ready
K1 @ 9.09
Do we know who’s behind it K1?
I know that a guy was speaking of it at Saturday’s press conference but haven’t had time to listen yet!
Just recd a link from indy car Gordon Ross that links to a yatube video of indy truck Davie who is saying that today the HOL are discussing new criteria for referendums , at least 55% of ministers would have to agree to a referendum being held , and if criteria met a further 55% of eligble voters must vote within that ref to make it credible if not the ref is null and void , also 60% of those voters MUST vote for the proposal eg indyref2 or it is null and void
The door is not closing softly it is being SLAMMED SHUT AND PADLOCKED
we have to move now
Me 9.15pm sorry here is the link
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fUg5dmsY8&feature=em-uploademail
sorry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fUg5dmsY8&feature=em-uploademail
@ K1 @ Liz g – Let’s spend a couple of days researching this and then sign up if that is the best thing to do. It would need a lot of publicity to get the mass signatures needed.
If you remember where the talk about this is stored, let us know Liz g.
Breastplate…and Sandy……I’m with you guys , love your attitude
Sandy says:
13 January, 2020 at 4:50 pm
Terence C. 4.08 pm.
“Incidentally, worse things have happened in Scotland with no rioting in the streets. Yes, we have a small proportion of knuckle-draggers.”
I used to know a guy who was a constant annoyance to the polis. Drunk, aggresive all the time, along with another 3 or4 others.
Got a hold of him one night and showed him the error of his ways. He wisnae the same man after, but we all felt the better for it.
“Scotland’s Right to Choose” document, sent to BJ with the s30 request only mentions Claim of Right 1989.
There is no explicit assertion of a LEGAL Claim of Right 1689.
The nearest it comes to is this, a discussion and question:
“Scotland has a historic constitutional tradition different from that described by the doctrine
of parliamentary sovereignty.
In Scotland, sovereignty is traditionally said to lie with the people, and to favour a limited rather than absolute form of authority, with the right to rule being subject to the consent of the people.15 The question has been asked why the constitution of a Union state
should reflect only one of the constitutional traditions of its constituent nations.16”
15 and 16 are links to the footnootes.
http://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-right-choose-putting-scotlands-future-scotlands-hands/
———————————–
Of course, I accept it’s no supposed to be a legal argument, it’s a political argument only begging for political consent and cooperation.
From SC,s inserted piece.
Securing a Lawful Referendum
Unpalatable as it may be to some nationalists that the exercise of Scottish self-determination depends on Westminster’s co-operation, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is necessary.”
So, again, we are a serf nation, in being only to serve our master with gold and blood.
Ben Maddigan …6.40pm
That Bill you mentioned going through Westminster about referendums
It has one page
It hasn’t been thought through
It hasn’t any supporting members
For every hundred of them one is heard but this one won’t make it that far
It’s not just a bill against Scotland
Wales and Ireland affected too
It’s a dead duck
Liz, No not yet, but as Capella suggests we should dig into this before signing up, the website is simple and straightforward in its aims, but as yet we don’t know ‘who/where’ it’s coming from, but the ‘idea’ is sound, imv.
I’ve just contacted the site on their contact form with this enquiry:
‘Hi, I am very keen to promote the covenant, but am being asked chiefly about who is behind this website, we need more information about the website and the admin before we can commit to spreading the word and asking people to give out very sensitive personal information, including passports and driver’s licences as forms of verification.
If you could respond to this, I’ll pass on any information you can provide to those enquiring and if people are satisfied that this is a legitimate venture we should all hopefully be confident to sign up to the covenant.
It may also be worthwhile to provide some of this information on the website itself as it seems a bit odd that there isn’t any kind of ‘about’ page link on the site?
I look forward to your reply.
Cheers’
The message after sending said they will reply within 24 hrs.
I’ll keep btl informed. Others could also enquire, if there is enough interest maybe they will put an ‘about’ link on their site 😉
Kenny J ….. I WILL BE RIGHT BEHIND YOU WHEN THE FOGHT STARTS
terence callachan says:
13 January, 2020 at 9:37 pm
Kenny J ….. I WILL BE RIGHT BEHIND YOU WHEN THE FOGHT STARTS
I suggested 3 years ago to our branch organiser I thought this was the way it would go.
George SQ. 1919
RE Scottish Covenanters.
Wonder if it’s a progression from this group. I’ve met a few of them and there were attempts to circulate paper forms to activists to work away collecting signatures.
Realistically that was difficult to do so it could be the plan evolved to the digital realm.
It could of course be a completely different group or individual behind the blockchain idea.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/16181360.scottish-covenanters-dancing-for-indy-as-new-group-starts/
K1 @ 9.32
Thanks for that K1 🙂
I’ll look out for your post before I start spreading the word.
It does look like a good plan on the face of it so we’ll see…
Capella @ 9.17
The talk was at the AUOB press conference on Saturday.
You’ll get it on Indy Live ( sorry can’t do links )
Kenny J says:
So, again, we are a serf nation, in being only to serve our master with gold and blood.
————-
better legal minds than mine have come to this conclusion. indy supporters too. this is where we are, however, if the supreme court find this too then the people of scotland will know definitively that the uk isnt a union of equals. in fact, it isnt a union at all.
Twathater @ 9.15
Mike Russell has been Tweeting about it and doesn’t seem too concerned it would ever pass…. Not sponsored by the Government apparently….
But still worth looking out for stuff like this….
There will be no levelling up for anywhere north of Watford Gap.
Scotland is not a region, it is an individual country in a very dysfunctional family unit with a Mother who has narcissistic personality disorder. It’s all about Mother and her favoured offspring maintaining the status quo to the detriment of the rest of the family who are neglected and exploited.
Time for Scotland to strike out,leave the family home and establish her financial independence. A legally binding separation will ensure a healthy and happy future for Scotland.
‘Political and business leaders in London have issued a stark warning to Boris Johnson that his plans to narrow regional inequalities across the UK could damage the capital’s status as a world-leading city’
By Jim Pickard.
https://www.ft.com/content/
‘Our new publication focusing on corrupt wealth in London property.Using multiple data sources, this report finds that there is no data available on the real owners of more than half of the 44,022 land titles owned by overseas companies in London whilst nine out of ten of these properties were bought via secrecy jurisdictions, such as those named in the Panama Papers… 44,022 London land titles are owned by overseas companies…91 percent of overseas companies owning London property through secrecy jurisdictions…Over 75 percent land titles identified as linked to PEPS are owned by companies based in Panama or the British Virgin Islands’
https://www.transparency.org.uk/publications/london-property-tr-ti-uk/
‘The UK’s national health service was founded on the principles of treatment based on need regardless of ability to pay. As an early example of universal health coverage, it has often been looked to by countries seeking to emulate it. At home, it is seen as something that captures the national identity… The “hostile environment,” first championed by Theresa May as home secretary, has pervaded many sectors that have essential roles in promoting health, such as housing and education, but its effect is particularly stark in healthcare. Primary care remains free, but secondary and community care—including services such as termination of pregnancy, palliative care, and mental health—are charged upfront for patients who cannot prove entitlement, with those unable to pay being refused care’
https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l7054.full
‘when we leave the EU, much of the EU law will, for the time being, remain in our legal system – so-called “retained” law… Clause 26 adopts a different approach. Ministers… are to be given power to make regulations governing which of our courts and tribunals should, after the end of this year, no longer be bound by these judgements…
(Lord) Pannick suggests that ministers should not be giving themselves power to regulate a fundamental aspect of our legal system – this is not something in which Ministers should interfere…Deciding which of our courts should no longer be bound by these precedents, he says, and what test judges should apply, is a matter of principle for parliament to determine, after full debate, especially in a system that values the separation of powers between the judiciary and the executive.
Pannick then goes on to add that the parentage of clause 26 is “unknown”. It certainly does not look like a child of the Ministry of Justice and the attorney-general’s department, he says, leaving us to wonder why it was inserted when the hazards are so evident…This is not really a situation in which the government wants to place itself, as there will be, no doubt, break clauses built into any new treaty, operable in the event of non-compliance by any party. The government could find itself continually fire-fighting, just to maintain the status quo’
http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87485
Kenny J & terence callachan
careful what you wish for.
for the moment, we are no where near such actions, there isnt the support for “foighting” of any kind either in the yes movement or in scotland in general.
however, we have crossed a red line and many people have been calling for civil disobedience. I have defined what that means, for the moment. i hope you both agree with my guide lines
One from Stu’s twitter feed for any that missed it.
Just waiting for the imminent tsunami of previous btl anti-EU posters piling in and raging about un-elected bureaucrats…guess they’ll be here any minute…3,2,1…eh, hello?…
https://twitter.com/BottyBolingoli/status/1216784439004614659
And as for this crap about Don’t talk, She’s playing it close to her chist, etc, that you used to get from the SNP forever nutcases on here.
Christ, the SNP will have been penetrated 10s of years ago.
MI6 will know every f***** move being proposed. SNP a threat to the nation.
Remember they moved into the Communist Party HQ in London overnight some time after the war. Can’t remember, and copied all the data they . All my family would have been listed. They counted out and counted in all the guys, and women, who went to Spain, including a guy who would have been my uncle.
Remember the W. German administration before the wall came down. Every few months a plant would be uncovered. After reunification it was revealed Chancellor Adenaur,s ? right hand man had been a bloody E. German agent.
Secrets, the SNP will have bugger all.Remember the YES org. having an email “problem” in 2014. Nothing to see here, Sir. Plod has looked at it.
If they think Extinction Rebellion are terrorists, what the f*** are we.
@ K1 @ Liz g – thx. 🙂
schrodingers cat says:
13 January, 2020 at 10:06 pm
Kenny J & Terence Callachan
Yes, of course we do, however, it,s another branch of diplomacy.
The Queen and her authority over signing or not signing documents:
Her Majesty the Queen has no choice in what she signs, it matters not what the document is or to what it pertains, her Majesty has no choice but to sign what the soveriegn government of England put before her
The term Royal assent is a fiction a sham invented for the population to feel that their Queen is a real figurehead of assurance for them, but that is all she is, a sham
Her majesty may refuse to sign any document she cares to which would be followed swiftly by a government announcement of her abdication, that is the power the Queen possesses, the power to abdicate, or indeed die whichever comes the sooner
The Queens constitutional position is zero, she is in the preservation of the Royal family business and that’s the total interest that she has, everything else to her is just noise
The House of Sax Coburg and its continuation is all, and if Germany had won the second world war that’s likely they name they would have reverted to, and if Martians invaded called the Zorgs she’d be Queen of them too as long as they kept her and her family in the manner to which they are accustomed
IS ANYONE else finding a bug when viewing this site on an iPad?
The page jumps up and down every half second making it unreadable.
I am now on my desktop using Windows and it’s OK.
The Queen is the western version of the Japanese Emperors, 17th c onward.
The shogun is whoever is the PM.
Before I go to see how Mrs. Tupperware is doing, the Scottish Independence Party is maybe going to be needed quite soon.
Some numptie called Jess Phillips, who aspires to the leadership of the Colonialist Labour Party, reckons Scotland will be more internationalist by being taken out of the
(internationalist)EU.
It used to be the case that we assumed that a Westminster unionist politician had at least a modicum of brains until it was proved otherwise. Now we assume these people to be imbeciles unless they can convince us that they aren’t.
Robin MacAlpine wrote a blog article during 2014 called “Just because you have a gun doesn’t mean you can shoot”. The idea was that having the power to do something is useless if the consequences of doing it are catastrophic.
A man goes into a shop and demands a packet of crisps. He refuses to pay. He has a gun but there is CCTV. He will end up in prison for years. It isn’t worth it.
Westminster may want many things, but they also want trade deals all over the world, including Europe. The consequences of acting like a lawless bully may become too high, specially when dealing with a new member state, specially one with vast fishing grounds and oil fields.
A fine retort to anyone spouting OIAG pish.
The “once in a generation” soundbite should be considered akin to “DFS sale ending soon”.
https://twitter.com/HeavensAbove7/status/1216769882873847810
Dan,
So you are agreeing that once in a generation was and is a lie?
England, a country that invaded and threw Scots from their homes to make way for sheep, that’s the level of our importance to England, we’re in the way
England voted for what they wanted and that’s fine for them but they knew what they were inflicting on the rest of us and they know now and they don’t care what we think about that
That’s why they parked their Nuclear bombs on the edge of the central belt of Scotland
They don’t love us and never have, Scotland is an open cash machine with no pin number to stop them stealing everything