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The Toady And The Trap

Posted on January 09, 2020 by

Anyone who’s followed the UK political media over the last decade or so with specific reference to Scotland will know that in a very crowded field, the standout poster boy for arrogant, condescending metropolitan cluelessness is the Independent’s chief political commentator John Rentoul.

For reasons which escape us, Rentoul – who was born in India and as far as we know has spent not a single day of his life resident in Scotland – identifies as Scottish. And yet he doesn’t appear to even recognise the concept of Scotland as a political entity, and today he demonstrated that fact in a manner so stark and striking that it’s worth recording for posterity.

“Parliamentary democracy” is a REALLY interesting pitch to refuse Scotland’s right to self-determination from. What it means, of course, is a system whereby the share of votes a party gets in an election is completely irrelevant – the only thing that counts is the number of votes in Parliament they get, ie the number of seats.

Parliamentary democracy is the system by which UK parties are able to achieve large majorities and absolute power on a minority of the popular vote. Labour, for example, achieved a comfortable majority of over 60 seats in 2005 on just 35% of the votes cast.

Even rather slow-witted children, therefore, would immediately be able to observe that if a party were to achieve not just a majority of seats but an overwhelming majority, outnumbering every other party combined by four to one, they would clearly have an indisputable mandate specifically under the system of Parliamentary democracy for whatever policies they’d campaigned on.

(Or indeed hadn’t – Parliamentary democracy places no relevance whatsoever on the contents of a party’s manifesto. Power is all. The sole mechanism for holding parties to account should they act outwith the contents of their manifesto is the next election.)

But as soon as his own rules work against him, Rentoul pulls a U-turn.

All of a sudden, the number of seats won – which is the sole determinant of success in a Parliamentary democracy – count for nothing. When it suits Rentoul, magically it all becomes about vote share.

(Interestingly, and perhaps because it would involve making an overt statement that Scotland is a prisoner in the UK, Rentoul doesn’t use the SNP’s actual UK vote share in the UK election – 4% – but its share in Scotland.)

But that doesn’t work either, because in 2015 pro-independence parties DID get a majority of Scottish votes in a UK election. The SNP got 49.97% and the Greens got 1.35% for a total of 51.32%. With a majority of votes and a breathtaking 95% of seats, the SNP could simply have declared independence there and then under Rentoul’s rules, without even a referendum. Yet independence did not follow.

How, then, might Scotland seek to democratically extract itself from the Union, given that it can never achieve a majority of seats at Westminster even if it got 100% of Scottish votes, and neither a majority of Scottish seats nor a majority of Scottish votes counts? We must surely conclude that Holyrood is the determining arena.

And initially Rentoul appears to agree:

But hold on – there already IS a majority for independence in the Scottish Parliament. In the 2016 election pro-independence parties won 53.5% of the seats, and indeed went so far as to successfully pass a vote calling for a second referendum – the very definition of how a “Parliamentary democracy” operates.

But wait! Apparently that vote must be disqualified on the grounds of what someone is supposed to have said in 2014, even though one of the core founding principles of the UK’s Parliamentary democracy, with its absence of any written constitution, is that no government can bind the hands of its successor. Any individual Parliament’s sovereignty in the UK is inviolate other than at the hands of the monarch.

So even if Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon HAD been making a pledge when they used the words “once in a generation”which of course they weren’t, any more than when a football manager says a cup final is a “once in a lifetime” opportunity but then enters the competition again the next year – that pledge was rendered completely irrelevant by the 2015 and 2016 elections. No new Parliament is beholden to the old dead one, or to a First Minister who stepped down more than five years ago.

If not, we’d be intrigued to hear which other pronouncements of Alex Salmond several years ago Rentoul considers to be binding on Scottish politics for the next 20 years. Indeed, if “whatever Alex Salmond said in 2014 goes” is the rule, why bother even HAVING elections again before 2039? Don’t we just have to do whatever he wanted?

Rentoul does indeed appear to hold the view that democracy was suspended in 2014, for a period to be determined by him. Because in an actual Parliamentary democracy, the straightforward answer to this question:

is “However often Parliament votes for one, even if it votes to have one twice a year and three times in leap years until it either gets the result it wants or gets thrown out by the electorate at an election.”

If you disagree with that, fine, but you don’t believe in Parliamentary democracy. You believe in something entirely different and fluid that has no definable rules other than those you arbitrarily make up on the spot to deliver your own preferred outcomes. The usual name we use for that system of governance is “dictatorship”.

(If Rentoul IS questioning the supremacy of each new Parliament to act without regard to the wishes of its predecessors, that opens up a whole new fun can of worms.)

So let’s recap:

– Scotland cannot leave the Union by electing a majority of pro-independence MPs to Westminster, as it’s vote share that counts, not number of seats.

– Scotland also cannot leave the Union by a majority of its voters voting for pro-indy parties in a UK election, because magically it’s then number of seats that counts, not vote share, and Scottish MPs are always outnumbered 10 to 1.

– Scotland cannot escape the Union by electing a majority of pro-independence MSPs to its own Parliament, because it did that in 2016 and Westminster simply ignored what those MSPs voted for and said it didn’t count.

– Scotland cannot escape the Union by having a majority vote for independence in a referendum, because it had a vote on that in the past and apparently that vote ended the very concept of Parliamentary democracy for decades to come, seemingly to be replaced by the eternal will of [a deliberate misrepresentation of] Alex Salmond.

These rules require the UK to be governed both by Parliamentary democracy and NOT by Parliamentary democracy, defined by whichever one would deny Scots the right to decide their own future at any given moment. So far as Scotland is concerned, the UK is Schrodinger’s Democracy, except our cat is always dead.

And fittingly, this impossible and inescapable Catch-22 is defended and advocated by someone who is somehow both Scottish (by his own assertion) and not Scottish (by any other definable criteria) at the same time.

Rentoul, like so many of his ilk, is nothing more than a bully’s lackey, holding down the victim to be punched and robbed of their pocket money by a gang of bigger kids, all the while sneering “Why don’t you just get up and walk away?”

It’s a mentality typical of the privileged but cruel private-school education that formed him, though the glaring intellectual feebleness of his argument would surely shame his Cambridge alma mater, not to mention the near-heroic lack of self-awareness.

But more to the point, it demonstrates how independence will never be won by playing “fair and square” with the British establishment, with its endless history of moving the goalposts to ensure it can never lose. It really is time we got in a fight.

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291 to “The Toady And The Trap”

  1. John Moss says:

    I agree

  2. Normski says:

    Thank fuck that you have recovered from your recent schizoid break from reality.

    And yeah, that guy is one serious fud.

  3. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Yes, I hope you are very wrong about a fight. But very sadly and with great hesitation I have to concede that it may come to an actual fight.

    The undemocratic English regime are dragging us along that path. Is that what they actually want?

    I trust cool heads on both sides will prevail.

  4. Dr Jim says:

    Rules is for fools

  5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Thank fuck that you have recovered from your recent schizoid break from reality.”

    I mean, you DO understand that people saying dickish things like that just means that the next 20 articles are all going to be about the transgender debate, right?

    Like, seriously, fuck off with telling me which truths I’m allowed to write about on my own damn website and which I’m not. If you don’t like it, I don’t see any chains holding you down.

  6. doug_bryce says:

    back on form with eye firmly on ball. this web site so much better when it avoids getting distracted by trannys and anti-SNP hysteria

  7. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “back on form with eye firmly on ball. this web site so much better when it avoids getting distracted by trannys and anti-SNP hysteria”

    See the comment above.

  8. Gordon Keane says:

    A great expose of this fake thing, who pretends to be Scottish, while knowing and caring nothing about us.
    Seems the only way we get Independence, is to simply declare the 1707 Union of Treaty to be null and void. Citing the various violations of it, especially the Brexit fiasco.
    And Scotland Dissolves the Union.
    The problem we have just now, tho, is the SNP leadership insistence on not doing that, (as of yet, if ever) but of going meekly, ever so meekly, with the London rules.
    That is no use.
    The inaction we have seen over the past few years, will see us taken out of EU in a matter of days from now.
    And yet, they still keep on this useless path to nowhere.
    We wonder what stupid idiots like this non Scottish journo will say, if Scotland does take the gloves off.
    No doubt’ they’ll want to send up the UK Army, well, what’s left of it!
    At any rate, we demand something a bit stronger from SNP than than what we are getting at present.

  9. Joemcg says:

    At last, a breakdown of how the Brit Nats twist and turn facts and figures to suit their own agenda. This doesn’t even break the surface. We will not achieve Indy without a fight and breaking THEIR rules. Sick of the powder puff SNP approach. Really sick of it.

  10. Camy says:

    and they wonder why the Independent is going down the toilet

  11. Colin Alexander says:

    What’s worst?

    The corrupt and rotten to the core UK state and their media toadies
    the subservient Scottish politicians who prioritise winning elections for the Empire and colonial parliaments instead of taking responsibility and voting for Scotland’s freedom by parliamentary vote.

  12. Famous15 says:

    It sure is a time for tough talking and things!

    I Hear murmurings from former staunch nooooers who “are seeing clearly now,the rain has gone”

    Gonna be bright,bright sunny day.Nothin but blue skies.

    Unionists are unhappy Very unhappy

  13. scotspatriot says:

    Fair enough !

  14. Al says:

    Lets have a big massive fight about the budget, seeing as they are dicking us about down in Westminster/Whitehall.
    Scottish government could create a budget for Scotland based on the monies accrued by Westminster from Scotland over the past twelve months and send it in to them down south to cough up and pay for it or they can go and piss off.
    That ought to create a stir and doubtlessly some very alarming reactions across the board.

  15. Al says:

    Looking forward to the 20 trans articles. It’ll make a change from you telling us we can’t have a referendum in 2020, even if we did we’d lose. BTW hows the new party coming along?

  16. One_Scot says:

    Open question, is there a way out, because I cannot see it.

  17. Bob Costello says:

    Absolutely agree but just like Wallace and Bruce we will have to defeat the Scots before we start on the English. The Scots being the SNP

  18. Mist001 says:

    So it begins again. A new article by the Rev, soon to be filled with comments about how the SNP should do this, they should do that and all of this.

    It should be blatantly obvious even to the denialist SNP apologists that the SNP are going to do NOTHING. Zilch. Nada.

    So, what’s next? I know what’s next. Continual moaning and whining on a message board and having a monthly day out on a march.

    Because that’s what independence has been reduced to by the current SNP leadership. All talk and no action.

  19. Sharny Dubs says:

    What are the options? Traffic Blockade at Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh airports?

  20. Proud Cybernat says:

    “It really is time we got in a fight.”

    What? The Irish method?

  21. Clydebuilt says:

    Rentoul a Son of the Manse, as is Bill Whiteford (BBC Scotland), Graham Spiers, Douglas and Wendy Alexander, Sir Danny Alexander, Sir David Steel and last but not least Gordon Brown. All genetically bred to tell people how to live and think.

  22. Delighted to have you back, Stu.
    The gloves are off.

  23. Robert Louis says:

    “But more to the point, it demonstrates how independence will never be won by playing “fair and square” with the British establishment, with its endless history of moving the goalposts. It really is time we got in a fight.”

    [my bolding]

    The situation in a nutshell. But the SNP leadership will already know this, won’t they????

  24. Clydebuilt, @ 9.24 pm
    See my ‘murder of MSM crows’ over on WGD today.
    They are all fromm the same cukturl educational and ahem religious background. What a coincidence.
    Equality laws don’t apply in the world of Hacks?

  25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What? The Irish method?”


  26. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It’ll make a change from you telling us we can’t have a referendum in 2020, even if we did we’d lose”

    We definitely won’t have one. But when have I ever said we’d lose it if we did? I’ve said the opposite of that – we need to have a campaign to move the polls.

  27. CameronB Brodie says:

    Rentoul is not a serious commentator though he appears to have been positioned as such, probably because most ofl the other FUDs have been shot down in flames. And he a New Labour lovey.

    Deciding the demos: three conceptions of democratic legitimacy

  28. Dan says:

    In angling terms that’s a good catch Stu.
    Rented tool is a fine specimen of the sophistical eel so often found slipping, sliding, and squirming about in the dank swamp of UK journalism.
    For some reason reading through JR’s utterances I couldn’t help think he was channeling his inner Vicky Pollard of “Yeah but no but yeah but no” infamy.

    It’s high time we drained the manky UK swamp and then Scotland will be able to have an assortment of proper journalists in our own fresh crystal clear waters.

  29. Mist001 says:

    SAturgeons most recent request to Westminster for a section 30 order includes this sentence in the final paragraph:

    “Scotland is not a region questioning its place in a larger unitary state; we are a country in a voluntary union of nations.”

    So, why are we farting about talking about referendums? If it’s voluntary as she herself acknowledges, then why not just leave?

    What’s so fucking hard about it? It’s voluntary!!

  30. manandboy says:

    In the way a career criminal, with no respect either for the depositers or the rule of law, is determined to rob a bank, so the English Establishment is determined to rob Scotland.

    It is no coincidence that trying to persuade the Westminster government to cease robbing Scotland, will have any more success than having a chat with the aforementioned career criminal in an attempt to persuade him to abandon his planned robbery.

    More robust action is required in both cases.

    Are you listening, SNP?

  31. terence callachan says:

    Who is gonna throw the first punch

    I’m ready for the fight
    I’ve always known it would come to this

    England will refuse to cooperate forever
    They control everything of importance
    We could go on and on like this forever

    They hope we will and are banking on us giving up

    Their next best hope is that we go ahead with a referendum on scottish independence without their agreement
    If we do
    They will tell their voters not to vote
    If we get a majority in favour of Scottish independence
    They will say it’s not valid

    If we say it is valid
    And we go ahead and declare Scottish Independence

    England will be uncooperative and try and get other countries to be uncooperative
    They will threaten to stop Scottish independence with force
    They will blame Scotland if there is violence

    We are cornered
    There is only one escape and it involves a fight
    I’m ready to fight for my countries independence
    It’s not just my countries independence either
    It’s the future of my sons my grandchildren my friends relatives and countrymen

    Get annoyed when anyone mentions politics or brexit or Scottish independence
    Put on a scowl
    Keep watching the tv
    Turn the tv up
    Claim not to understand it all
    It’s too complicated
    Go put the kettle on
    Carry on as you were
    And don’t conflate the poverty and decrepit housing of your fellow Scots and neighbours with the colonisation of your country by the mad neighbour which is England
    You have unwittingly been bullied by England all your life thinking you are in a family of nations
    Brexit has shown you how much they do not love or care for you
    If you go this route do bear in mind that giving into a bully when they know you are giving into them
    Will make them bully you more…..FOREVER

  32. Tony O"neill says:

    As I have always said for years now. Their intention is to get us away from the protection of the eu, and to close down the Scottish Parliament and leave us powerless. Referendums on Scottish independence are only a device for them to tamper with like the last one, if there is a another one, it and us will be nobbled again. The only way we will regain our national liberty is to repeal the treaty of 1707. Failing that, it is to war we must go.

  33. manandboy says:

    Ps. Scotland needs a second Independence Party.

    It’s a no brainer.

  34. katherine hamilton says:

    Ach Rev
    Ignore those clowns above and there snidey comments. Maybe we could have Indyref2 on Hogmanay 2020. The victory announced on New Years day 2021.
    Then, everybody’s right!

    This one is one of your best. Incisive debunking of their combination of preening and mendacity.

  35. Welsh Sion says:

    Rentoul – is that with an ‘ou’ or a ‘double o’? 😉

  36. katherine hamilton says:

    Oops,”their” snidey comments.

  37. Fireproofjim says:

    A concise guide to how goalposts are moved. Read and learn and debunk the next Unionist who tries any of these twists.

  38. Normski says:

    “I mean, you DO understand that people saying dickish things like that just means that the next 20 articles are all going to be about the transgender debate, right?”

    What transgender debate? Men are men and women are women. Did I ever say otherwise?

    (Noting that as far as I can tell – about 0.04% of the population get mightly confused between imagined gender and sexual attraction).

  39. Gary says:

    I’m beginning to understand the point of Northern Irish parties deciding NOT to send their elected MPs to Westminster..

  40. Bob Mack says:

    Able to partly type at last after surgery.

    You can app!y your comment to everybody at Westminster and the Civil service They are creating a Catch 22 scenario wbere the ru!es change to whatever scenario benefits their will.

    All of course to the cost of those who seek Indy.

    We must have representatives who cause disruption and do not abide by their rules. Can the SNP do that?

  41. mogabee says:

    If it’s a fight they want, then facing them will not be the SNP by the looks of it, unfortunately for us.

    O/T Anyone know who has the crowdfunder for court action running atm and who they are?

  42. Terry says:

    “ Indeed, if “whatever Alex Salmond said in 2014 goes” is the rule, why bother even HAVING elections again before 2039? Don’t we just have to do whatever he wanted?”

    Ha ha! I’ve been thinking that for a while. Chuck their logic back in their faces.

    Wrap up for Saturday folks and if you can try and get up to the march in Inverness on the 25th.

    Best wishes to Robert Pefffers.

  43. terence callachan says:

    SNP have to try every way and take every opportunity to ask england to cooperate with a Scottish independence referendum
    It’s in our interest to have an amicable separation
    If England don’t cooperate we must be patient and give them time to come to terms with the inevitability that people choose their own political path and Scotland will do exactly that

    If the SNP don’t do this
    And they go ahead with a referendum without England on board , england will say they would have cooperated but were asked at the wrong time what with brexit and change of PM etc going on over the last few years, a busy time.

    So what the SNP have been doing is good , sensible , narrowing down room for England’s excuses
    We want more urgency
    But there is value in the SNP calculated and patient approach
    England can’t say we sprung it on them

    I’m of the opinion that soon the SNP will tell england that Scotland and SNP have been very patient and having asked england on several occasions to cooperate with a Scottish independence referendum
    Only to be told each time that “ now is not the time “
    Scotland is now going to arrange a Scottish independence referendum SNP will name the date and tell England to be aware and ready .
    SNP will then go ahead with the referendum giving England months of advance notice

    What england does after that will be interesting

  44. Willie says:

    I had to laugh at the SNP woman’s outrage at allegedly being called a queer by the DUP’s Ken Maginnis.

    True to the form that typifies these ‘ democratic ‘ unionist boys there wasn’t a bit of repentance in him when he denied, or at least couldn’t recall calling the lady, lesbian, mam, boy, trans, or whatever ( insert as appropriate ) ….a Queer.

    Now in these days of Gay Pride / Glad to be Gay / Trans or whatever, you’d think the name queer would be a badge of honour. But oh no, the lady or laddie ( if I can call her / him r that ) has gone overboard, loopy doo about it. Even Roof Pogg had something to say.

    Memo to Blackford. Tell yer wummin to man up and as they say grow a pair!

    No whimpering in the ranks noo. There’s independence to be won. Stiff upper tip. Roger !

  45. terence callachan says:

    Effijy…right on

  46. terence callachan says:


    In the U.K. it was a crime punishable by death hanging from the neck until dead
    to be gay and have sex with someone of the same sex until 1967

    I was born 1956

    So this law existed in my lifetime

    I don’t know what age you are ?

    But just think about this for a minute

    UK law treated gay people having sex as a crime punishable by death in the same way a murderer was punished by death
    Hung by the neck til you die

    The law hanging people by the neck til dead existed here in U.K. until 1969

    The law hanging people by the neck til dead existed in Northern Ireland until 1963

    People are people with every right to be treated fairly if gay bi whatever
    Sensitivity is the correct way

  47. terence callachan says:

    Northern Ireland 1973 ..

  48. Liz g says:

    Not the Irish way,that was in and of its time.
    It wouldn’t work for us for all sorts of reasons anyway.
    As I see it the Yes movement can and will shift the vote well over the line!
    But we need the vote!
    If the SNP are the vehicle to independence the Yes movement need to start driving it.
    We’ve done just about all we can do with Westminster and it’s systems…. There are no more votes of any kind to be had to demonstrate another referendum is required.
    The Yes Movement has kept it together and organised.
    It’s time to let the SNP know we’ve got this.
    We wowed them in 2014 and we’ve gotten better.
    We all know there are moves the SNP can make to force a vote of some description.
    We need to be very clear we want that vote!
    Up with any more procrastination we will not put.
    Face up to Westminster and we’ll be right behind them a dam site more than any foreign government will.
    It’s no rocket science where the first blow in this fight needs to land

  49. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Willie.

    What a load of $h!t you spout!

    Calm down, man/woman…

  50. terence callachan says:

    Liz g..rock on Liz ..I agree ..well said

    Here’s to a good march saturday

    I enjoyed the last one in Edinburgh , marvellous

    When you have come this far
    There is no turning back.

    “If you can’t fly then run, if you can’t run then walk, if you can’t walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward “

    Scottish independence is coming

  51. Dr Jim says:

    Hannah and the Lord

    It’s not what he said, it’s who he said it to and why

    He meant to offend and belittle and she’s going to make him pay for it

  52. Training Day says:

    That was a curative, Rev.

    And your last paragraph absolutely nails it.

  53. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Rentoul is a formulaic scribbler with one eye to his next pay-slip and the other to the next gig. His is an incestuous we world where everybody knows everybody else and there’s a big pile of application forms from eager candidates waiting to take-over his computer terminal if he ever dares to stray from the orthodox, in-house line. Better him than me: the sad fucker.

  54. awizgonny says:

    Bang on. Reminds me of when Eric Morecambe would put his hand under Ernie Wise’s chin and say “Get out of that without moving.”

  55. Clapper57 says:

    @ Bob Mack @ 11.02pm

    Welcome back. Take care.


    Note Patrica Gibson tweeted this :

    “Labour has just abstained on the @theSNP reasoned amendment rejecting the Brexit Bill which encroaches on the powers of the @ScotParl, undermining the fundamental principles of the Scotland Act”

    I see same old same old being applied …..Scots did NOT vote for them soooooo it’s the Revenge of the Red(dish), with a tinge of Blue, Unionist uber alles party No 3 ( 4 if you include the DUP..but who would..oh yeh…. a Tory or rather did when they needed them Lol)…oh way to go to win back ( Lol ) those voters in Scotland or , to quote Jess Phillips, ” Up There” aka Scotland aka the part in YOUR Union labour HQ that ya ain’t gonna get EVER..cause you’re S**te….and we are leaving anyway…to coin a common phrase….GIRUY…once again YOU stab Scotland in the back.

    Okay so we Scots did not vote for you in last GE…( cannot count Ian Murray as he is a Tory in all but name)…but hey come on Labour you have to admit you ARE, via your actions, showing why we did not…seems you oppose the SNP MORE than you oppose the Tories…who knew ?…well us, the Scots actually….hence why we did not vote for you…simples…Lol


    John Rentoul …..oh he’s another charmer…that we can ignore…is he in a band too like Euan Mccolm….perhaps with Iain Martin….The Petty Shop Boys….stretching it with use of ‘Boys’…but hey you know hacks…Boys will be Boys…and hack Boys they are just THE worst….and ever so petty…what was their hit again…oh I know…’West End BOYS’…..Lol

  56. Willie says:

    Oh all right then Brian Doonthetoon.

    I am so truly and utterly sorry, devastated, appalled and shattered that an old cantankerous bigot called Lord Kenneth Maginnis had the temerity to apparently utter under his breath that the the honourable gay promoting SNP MP lady / laddie from somewhere was queer.

    The shock horror of this alleged action must have been totally and utterly incomprehensible. To consider it anything less than a hate crime of which the honourable member now complains to the police would be nothing less than outrageous. McGinnis should be prosecuted with the full might of the law. We just cannot have people committing such a heinous crime.

    Unlike the guards at the death camps in Nazi Germany Maginnis has no Nuremberg defence that he was only doing his job. To use that word, even if it was muttered under his breath, puts him in the rank of a war criminal.

    Memo therefore to Blackford and the SNP high command that this lady / laddie has suffered the most appalling stress and that her life will never be the same again. And here was me thinking we had an able, capable, formidable SNP champion to forward the cause of independence – only for her to be shattered by a horrible Ulster Unionist.

    There Terence Callaghan, no shit spouted.

  57. Andy Anderson says:

    What gets me is that those who spout these statements know they are lying or they are thick. Your example Stu proves this.

    And then our beloved media lets them away with it because they are also lying or thick or both.

  58. manandboy says:

    Colonisation is always preceded by the forcible invasion of someone else’s independent country. In the so-called ‘British Empire’, this is how England became ‘Great Britain’. ‘Evil Britain’ would have been much more accurate. The same Britain exists today – and it is still evil. Boris Johnson is its Prime Minister, but evil Britain is no laughing matter.

    Please read this if you have the time.

    “Australia is built on lies, so why would we be surprised about lies about climate change?”

  59. robertknight says:

    John Rentool – Master of Fuckwittery.

    He identifies as “Scottish” as rumour has it that whilst growing up in India, or was it England – I can’t remember, he once consumed half a can of Irn Bru!

    Hoots mon! Donal whaurs yer trews?

  60. ahundredthidiot says:

    Our fighter in the ring is the SNP.

    All democratic avenues have just about been shut down – so I would suggest 1st Feb might be a good date – they should be ‘recalled’ to Holyrood and a political emergency declared.

    That would be the first blow. Then, over to London for a response. UKs third party takes it’s baw hame cos naebody wants to play.

  61. Robert Louis says:

    This disingenuous approach has always been how Westminster behaves. They did it with every single one of their colonies, the most disgusting example being the Chagos Islands. In Westminster’s eyes, ‘rules’ are for other people.

    Westminster makes ‘rules’ for ‘others’ to follow, but Westminster itself is above such ‘rules’. That is why they like the idea of an ‘unwritten’ constitution, as it allows them to make and change the rules on a whim, as it suits them.

    Westminster continually asserts it has absolute sovereignty within the UK, yet, constitutionally, and as am atter of law it absolutely does not in Scotland.

    But hard cold facts do not matter to Westminster, they just say things, and the obliging Westminster so-called ‘journalists’ repeat it as fact. For example, there is not one UK so-called journalist who does not describe a section 30 as permission to hold a referendum, yet a section 30 is no such thing. That is how craven and lazy the so-called journalists in Westminster are.

    The Scotgov needs to assert and keep asserting in every single interview that Scotland is in a voluntary union with England, which is wholly dysfunctional and abusive.

    It is high time the FM and the SNP stopped playing along with Westminster’s ‘made-up’ pish. The days of cosy chats and agreements and ‘understandings’ are long gone.

    Really not sure why SNP MP’s have not walked out of Westminster permanently a very long time ago. I mean seriously, how much abuse of Scotland and its people will they sit and endure, before they grow a backbone and act.

  62. Robert Louis says:


    Re: the story linked below, Can anybody explain to me why the Scottish police chief thinks he needs extra police officers for the ‘implications’ of brexit? Seriously, what is that about? is it for when they start rationing food? or deporting EU nationals en masse?

  63. Dorothy Devine says:

    Perhaps it is time that we pushed the buttons of all south of the border so that they clamour to be rid of us.

  64. Giving Goose says:

    Let us face facts.
    British Nationalists will say anything to keep Scotland chained to London rule.
    Rentoul is not Scottish.
    He can ID all he likes but he is British.
    End of!

  65. ahundredthidiot says:

    DD @ 7:43

    Withdrawing all our SNP MPs to Holyrood would do exactly that and at the height of Brexit fever on 1st Feb the backlash would be outstanding.

  66. Muscleguy says:

    @Robert Louis
    Considering the polis down in England released the silliest most ignorant emergency calls recently which included someone ringing up because the shop had run out of something we cannot, sadly, rule out what stupid folk might do.

    See also the fuel strike and rapidly emptying shop shelves. The govt caved to prevent social disorder. Post Brexit the govt will not be able to wave a magic wand and make that thing you buy every week appear in the shops again or at a price you can afford.

    There will have to be adjustments. I’m dreading it, I’m gluten and lactose intolerant and on Universal Credit. I’m already struggling due to price rises this year. If any of the necessary components of my diet go up significantly I’m in trouble.

    It’s happened before. We used to eat tofu fairly regularly, it was cheap. Then ‘organic food’ became a thing and every single sort of tofu got an ‘organic’ label and tripled in price. So we stopped eating tofu (after having a go at making it).

  67. mike cassidy says:

    For anybody even thinking ‘trouble’ as in Northern Ireland

    Take time out to read

    “Say Nothing” by Patrick Radden Keefe

    Then don’t think it again.

  68. Abulhaq says:

    [But more to the point, it demonstrates how independence will never be won by playing “fair and square” with the British establishment, with its endless history of moving the goalposts. It really is time we got in a fight.]
    As the English say in such circumstances HERE! HERE!
    There are no rules, this is a bare knuckle contest… the death of the Union and all its works.
    What is it about sons of the manse and their blessed Union?
    The Kirk, Unionism at prayer? But which deity is the object of the cult?

  69. Abulhaq says:

    There is something ironic that mr rent a tool sorry Rentoul was born in India.
    Might he not go back to his birthplace and expound on the error of independence?
    Come back to the great white queen, all is forgiven and similar stuff perhaps.

  70. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    It’s very simple, Rentool has nationality dysphoria. A condition that is often brought on by a colonial upbringing and Oxbridge finishing school.

    You do have to wonder, though, whence his (anti-)democratic “reasonings” are leading.

    Elements of the English Establishment like him have clearly learnt nothing from the past, not from the American Revolution nor the mess they made of Ireland nor anything else. As before, people like him will be swept away by the tides of history that he himself, with such typical domineering attitude, is actually helping create.

    That’s the thing that the more impatient among us are sometimes forgetting, by being eminently reasonable while winning the democratic argument, the SNP are goading their BritNat opponents into ever more self-revealing sclerotic attitudes like this. And people are increasingly noticing.

    Proving that 2014 was a contemptible BritNat lie from start to finish and unworthy of the respect they repeatedly demand, and totally queering their pitch for the next – and definitive – plebiscite.

  71. Rm says:

    The more you look at political parties in Scotland and the other countries in the union, all the people who claim to be politicians are more like actors and actresses playing their part, there’s no substance to most of them, nothing ever happens, are we being manipulated, if Scotland wants Independence they have to act like and behave like the Independent country we’ve always been it’s an act of union we’ve been in, we’ve never been defeated or captured or enslaved, it’s only been the unionist crawlers that have kept the union going with their lies through the BBC and the other unionist media outlets, if the Scottish government are serious about Independence they have to play their own game not London’s.

  72. Abulhaq says:

    England got a bargain with that 1707 ‘Union’. No mistaking in real terms which bit benefited most.
    If Scots remain ignorant of the socio-cultural predations of the annexation as the union could well be called the National party ought to be giving them a blood and guts, vibrant colour reminder.
    Suggest Prof. Thomas Devine give a wee hand re the facts of the matter.
    Btw. When i here the ‘once in a generation’ mantra i am provoked to reach for the baseball bat.
    Such a satisfying sound as good solid wood hits numb skull.

  73. Capella says:

    He is obviously the perfect hack. Noam Chomsky described it in The Manufacture of Consent. It used to be called propaganda but that sounded too nazi after Goebbels went a bit over the top. So it was rebranded “public relations”.
    The function of the media is to delude, deceive and demotivate.

    If you have 2 hrs and 45 minutes to spare, a documentary on Noam Chomsky and the media:

    or see Effigy’s video at 11.12 pm for a much shorter version.

  74. Stuart MacKay says:

    Well we all know what happens to goalposts when we put our minds to it,

  75. Socrates MacSporran says:

    A wee tactic I would like to recommend to the SNP group of MPs at Westminster. Every Tory who gets to his or her feet on Independence immediately brings-up the “Once in a generation” argument.

    So, why doesn’t every SNP MP on rising, slip-in the line: “As Margaret Thatcher said: ‘electing a majority of pro-Independence MPs in Scotland is grounds for independence.'” A few days of having that line rammed down their throats and I think you might find the “once in a generation” line used less-often.

    Really, the SNP Group has to start and maintain an all-out guerrilla war on the HoC. Every time a Tory tells a lie about how the SNP government is doing in Scotland, they should be called-out for it. Immediately, whoever is in the Chair will demand the SNP member withdraw the “lie” accusation – since ‘Honourable Members’ do not lie.

    The SNP then has to stick to their guns, point out, the Tory told a lie and halt proceedings until that lie is retracted. A few weeks of that and the Tories might start to think, maybe we should let this shower of troubl-makers go.

    Playing “nice” and by the rules – which they will pauchle to suit themselves any way, will never win us Independence.

  76. CameronB Brodie says:

    It is possible to mediate the harm caused by the manipulation of concent, with the application of philosophical realism. Not the positivist dualism that characterises legal thought in Britain.

    Power, norms and theory. A meta-political inquiry


    Realism criticizes the idea, central to what may be called ‘the priority view’, that philosophy has the task of imposing from the outside general norms of morality or standards of reasonableness on politics understood as the domain of power. According to realism, political philosophy must reveal the specific standards internal to the political practice of handling power appropriately and as it develops in actual circumstances. Framed in those terms, the debate evokes the idea that political power itself is lacking normativity until such time as norms are devised that govern its use.

    In contrast, this essay identifies a normative dimension internal to (the conquest and exercise of) power. Power depends on recognition and support in the form of belief. This dependence explains how an interest in power introduces a responsiveness to normative considerations into the domain of politics.

    Keywords: political normativity, realism, violence, belief, reasonableness, truth, time

  77. CameronB Brodie says:

    Where does the British constitution obtain its legal force? The moral law. Does Brexit respect the moral law and justice? No.

    Justice, legitimacy, and constitutional rights

  78. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Socrates MacSporran @ 09:45,

    You are right, the “once in a ~~~” (= “once only”) framing and the equally-toxic “respect 2014” framing must be challenged at every opportunity. Not just in the House of Correction but also in every media interview and debate, quietly but forcefully.

    And another symbolic walkout from the House of Clowns at month’s end wouldn’t go amiss either.

  79. Effijy says:

    Another immoral fascist son of the manse out to make fame and fortune
    For themselves on the back of lies and deceit.

    I would never employ anyone from the manse nor Oxbridge
    they seem to develop scary mental problems that want to control
    The masses.

  80. CameronB Brodie says:

    One for those who see London rule as a form of colonial occupation, and Scottish Britnats as less than patriotic to Scotland.

    Understanding complicity: memory, hope and the imagination

  81. Breeks says:

    Anybody who has ever tried to pursue a claim through an Ombudsman or Regulator will be familiar with the sophistry and accordant “wild goose chase” which is designed to wear down your stamina and exhaust your patience to the extent you’ll abandon your grievance and forget about your complaint. That is why most ombudsmen come from the Industry they are supposedly regulating.

    Thing is, the Regulators are appointed by the Government, who know exactly what they’re doing, being accomplished masters of sophistry and string pulling themselves.

    Whether it’s a complaint about Government, your Council, Public Utilities, your Bank, whatever… there is a layer of unnecessary bureaucracy which has a front, as a neutral and dispassionate Regulator looking after the customers interests, but in reality, it’s a swamp designed to bog down any complaint in months and months of sophistry and exasperation, until the complainant gives up for the sake of their mental health. Independent Regulator? You’re having a laugh.

    Look at any complaint process in isolation. Look at the volume and financial worth of complaints lodged with a Regulator, and then look at the tiny % of complaints upheld and the derisory compensations dished out to the aggrieved.

    Note too, mention the mere possibility of having a Regulators adjudication backed up or verified by legal advice, and the Regulator will drop your complaint like a hot brick. Ask yourself why any reputable referee in a dispute would be averse to actual legal probity.

    The UK is a con, and has been for decades. It dropped a gear when Thatcher set about stripping powers from local government and giving the work to unelected Quangos, who answer to nobody except their “Regulators”, (see above) and which are run by Establishment Old Boys who need an income and lifestyle they cannot earn.

    Thing is, corruption and rampant nepotism in the Quangos has found it’s kindred spirit in the Local Authority Swamp, and now your local Council is just as rotten, but better connected, than Thatchers army of troughers ever was. The whole rotten edifice needs deconstructed and steeped overnight in disinfectant.

    People seem blind to the sophistry which suffocates the United Kingdom, not just Scotland, but especially Scotland, and decade after decade, we lap it up and ask for more.

    I don’t see our bureaucrats in Holyrood ever delivering Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty. To my constant frustration, they shun Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty like an Ombudsman shuns Legal adjudication, then falls back on their laurels of integrity and “we know best” solemnity, having just stitched you up and sold your interests down the river. They’re not there to help you win, they’re there to keep the peace, like a placebo safety valve to blow off steam every once in a while.

    I hope Brexit is a wake up call for everybody, that unfortunately, Scotland’s first step as a sovereign Independent Nation might yet prove to be stepping outside a Holyrood Institution which works for the Establishment, and finding a different path which reconnects the Sovereign People of Scotland which an elected government which actually respects the sovereign integrity of the people and Scotland’s Constitution.

    Sadly, a lot of people have yet to recognise Devolution as the primary manifestation of this debilitating sophistry and numbing anaesthesia which keeps Scotland subdued. The “Scottish” Government will no more step outside Holyrood than they will step outside Westminster. They do not consider themselves bound by Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution. Ask yourself, who is writing the rules they follow.

  82. Pete says:

    Willie – Queers
    Thanks for telling us that another SNP is of that persuasion.
    God, they’re full of them.

  83. CameronB Brodie says:

    This gender debate has certainly managed to bring a lot of nasty creepy crawlies in to view. Judging folk by their sexuality, really is a dead giveaway of an authoritarian, right-wing, mentality, unlikely to be supportive of Scottish independence.

  84. shug says:

    Does anyone share my concern that as Brexit impacts and N Ireland becomes part of S Ireland the N Ireland Unionsts (hard core) will start to emigrate to Scotland and we will end up with all their knuckle draggers.

    A good result for Jackson Carlaws mob!!

  85. shug says:

    I really don’t think the SNP is making enough of the fact Ulster is getting to stay in the EU

  86. Abulhaq says:

    In British politics the rule generally applies that the intellectually bright should be viewed with suspicion. The system needs lobby fodder not Einsteins. That’s parliamentary democracy à l’anglaise. The people elect numbskulls, the dark state establishment rests easy. It has been so since the notion of parliamentary autocracy was conceived.
    In Scotland’s case we need less lobby fodder more truculent brights.
    Scotch Unionists are men of straw. Any ‘incendiarists’ in the house?

  87. AltClut says:

    Here we go again !
    The way forward is before us – get the activists in your local YES group/SNP branch/any other willing group out on the streets and doorsteps winning people over. They are there to be won !!
    Use rising support to gently squeeze our politicians into action and freeze out the complacent careerists among them.

    A large part of the reason that unionists can sustain their circular and vacant arguments on mandates is that we have not yet got sufficient support to render that drivel irrelevant.

    There is no ‘silver bullet’ – push, push and push again is the only way.

    If we hover on the brink until we start to fragment then some horrible, twenty first century, variant of what happened in Ireland becomes quite likely.

  88. Tinto Chiel says:

    Excellent analysis and summary, like your recent one on Corbyn.

    Yes, only an independence campaign pursued with conviction and passion will make the critical shift in opinion, I think, but as Schrodinger’s Cat was saying recently, it would be very interesting to see a well-sampled poll on independence conducted by one of the big companies.

    You see, I sometimes wonder what’s stopping Bojo agreeing to a Section 30 if we’re still stuck on about 45% after those most godawful Brexit shenanigans and the humiliations heaped on Scotland. After all, the Britnats have the media sewn up, a feeble Electoral Commission, the capacity to tweak voter registration and the postal vote if necessary and the boundless cynicism to organise fall flag incidents at opportune moments.

    Does he know something we don’t or is that just wishful thinking?

    So, Boris, do you feel lucky, punk?

  89. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Craig Murray came on here one night last week and got pelters for suggesting that the lowering of the EU flag at Holyrood on Jan 31st presents an ideal opportunity for some civil disobedience.

    He was just staying the bleedin obvious, but such talk gives a lot of folk the jitters.

    There’s no reason why civil disobedience should be conspiratorial stuff, with folk creeping about in balaclavas and having meetings at unsociable hours.

    I’m not a lawyer, so perhaps someone can help – does the ‘conspiracy’ part of various criminal charges still apply if there was no actual secrecy involved in the planning? If not, then where’s the damage in being upfront about it? Just discuss it openly, perhaps even right here, and let them know exactly what we intend to do. Just don’t tell them where and when.

    It doesn’t take much to bring a transport system to a complete halt. No need for bombs and suchlike when you can seriously annoy the life out of thousands by just sitting in the road until the cops get clearance to deal with you ‘appropriately’. Look at the impact Extinction Rebellion had in London. (And yon dancing isn’t obligatory.)

    Ach, you know the tongue is in the cheek here, but we’ve never discussed this stuff properly. It’s about time we did.


  90. Robert Roddick says:

    Thanks for that Rev, it’s good to learn of the credentials of those who think that they know.

  91. Capella says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood – “breach of the peace” or “acting in a manner likely to cause fear and alarm amongst the lieges” is a useful catch-all in Scotland for anything at all.
    i.e. If a person thinks that something bad is going to happen to him or someone else or to property.

    Incitement is a separate offence.

    I’m not a lawyer either!

  92. Dan says:

    More “quality” “news” circulating the UK…

    Spoon-bending psychic Uri Geller believes his “paranormal abilities” could help the Government secure post-Brexit trade deals with the US and the European Union.

    Who elected Uri to determine and influence future trade deals?

    The Un-United Kingdom must rank high in the “Pish Printed as News” league table.

    Mind you, the other day I saw “Megxit” trending in relation to Harry and Meghan wanting to become independent, though one wonders if they’ll need a Section 30 order and democratic vote of some sort to do so.

    To me it says everything about the U-UK when everything has to be dumbed down to a couple of syllable grunt like we can only communicate and comprehend at Tellytubby level.

    Hope to see plenty Scots out in Glasgow the morn.

  93. Kangaroo says:

    If there is no legal challenge to the Referendum Bill by Thursday next then it will go for Royal assent and become Scots Law. Once that happens the SG can declare a referendum date and a question on Independence, with or without a S30.

    If Bojo does not agree then by Westminsters own inaction they are “out of the legal loop”. The international community would accept that the Referendum was legal under Scots Law and therefore would recognise a Yes win.

    If Bojo does agree then the bitternats could participate and try to sway the result.

    Choices, choices…what does Bojo do…

    All the other newspaper crap and politicians saying “No” to a referendum is just opinion, preference, bluff and bluster but does NOT in any way have any legal effect.

    We wait….what does Bojo do….tick tock…Times running out bojo, what ya gonna do?

  94. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. civil diobedience. I don’t know if anyone will remember me suggesting that it helps to know a bit about John Rawls, if you hope to support social justice.

    Full text.

    Civil Disobedience in Democratic Regimes


    This article provides a fresh interpretation of John Rawls’s discussion of civil disobedience inA Theory of Justice (Harvard University Press 1971). It focuses on an original feature in Rawls’s analysis: civil disobedience as a form of speech deployed by a well-defined minority in an effort to correct an injustice perpetrated by a majority. For Rawls, civil disobedience as a speech function departs from the principle of protected free speech. Only certain expressions of civil disobedience are capable of producing genuine legal reform. Rawls gains new importance as part of a larger effort to understand and evaluate the outbreak of recent movements of mass dissent and protest from the Arab Spring to Ukraine to Hong Kong to the United States. A reconsideration of Rawls may be used to assess the likely success of these various expressions of dissent and protest.

    Rawls’s discussion of civil disobedience circumvents arguments in the legal literature that attempt to justify certain types of illegal activity with reference to moral conscience or natural law. Nevertheless, the focus on civil disobedience as speech encounters forms of coercive, resistant public opinion in the public sphere. Detailed, exemplary narratives by Martin Luther King and Norman Mailer on acts of civil disobedience illuminate forms of coercion that must be considered in extending and re-evaluating Rawls’s original contributions.

  95. Breeks says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    10 January, 2020 at 11:14 am
    Craig Murray came on here one night last week and got pelters for suggesting that the lowering of the EU flag at Holyrood on Jan 31st presents an ideal opportunity for some civil disobedience.

    He was just staying the bleedin obvious, but such talk gives a lot of folk the jitters.

    There’s no reason why civil disobedience should be conspiratorial stuff, with folk creeping about in balaclavas and having meetings at unsociable hours….

    Ha ha ha. My Civil disobedience is probably better not mentioned. I said, tongue in cheek, let me stress, tongue in cheek that IF Holyrood is the cowardly puppet Government controlled by Westminster, then setting light to Holyrood and watching it burn to the ground might make something of a point, and a fitting epitaph for Westminster’s influence in Scotland.

    I wouldn’t do it of course, because I’d get the jail and I’m an “I like freedom” kinda guy, and Boris would have due excuse for imposing emergency measures, but you know, there’s a wee devil in me that likes the idea of an SNP Cabinet wondering whether the mad bastard might actually do it. They take SFA notice of anything else, and I am truly incandescent with rage about Scotland being Brexited and our Sovereignty being pissed on like a lamppost. Maybe a temporary marquee in a field would focus the mind…

  96. David Agnew says:

    I saw rentouls tweets last night. Fair made my blood boil. Practically happy clappy at the UK stealing powers from Scotland.
    His comments on the indy ref betrayed that colossal tin ear most British journalists and MPs have when it comes to Scottish affairs.

    The SNP is not Scotland he said with contempt. But neither are the tories, labour or the lib dems for that matter. What the SNP is, are the elected representatives for Scotland. So they do speak for Scotland. Labour, that fucking disgrace of a party abstained on “Speaking for Scotland”. The tories will always take Englands side in constitutional debate, and frankly the Lib dems are a shower of wee fannies.

    Now Westminster can either accept and respect that Scotland by a large margain chose the SNP to speak for them, or frankly they need to end this farce of a Union.

  97. Abulhaq says:

    Albeit no fan of the theocratic Islamic Republic of Iran, the current situation must be placed in the context of the history of American foreign policy and that country’s pretensions to global reach.
    Like the British before them their prime concern is their own interests. There is nothing ‘altruistic’ in the strategic DNA. Everything done is a crude matter of ‘what’s in it for us’.
    Like the Brits the US scavenges, raptorlike, for the weak. Hawaii, Cuba, Philippines and Panama began this quest for imperial conquest. They had designs on Morocco and operated in the Levant and Egypt through the protestant colleges, now American universities, they established in the Ottoman empire.
    The following concerning the situation in the US ‘protegé’ Liberia is worth the long read.
    And for the wider view:
    Given that the USA virtually exterminated the autochthonous peoples within its ‘protectorate’ ought we to be surprised?

  98. Capella says:

    @ CBB – interesting link. John Rawls is an interesting American philosopher on justice. Will read.

  99. Scott says:

    yer a just jealous cos he lives in London. Like, Noel Gallagher lives there FFS!

  100. CameronB Brodie says:

    More on civil disobedience.

    Full text.

    Just Laws versus Unjust Laws:
    Asserting the Morality of Civil Disobedience


    How is a citizen living under a merciless totalitarianism such as the Nazi but opposed to its philosophies expected to respond to the law? Where does his primary obligation as a citizen reside? Is it to the laws of the land that command total submission or to his convictions by which he is convinced that the system is totally unjust?

    Does one have a moral obligation to always obey the law? Conversely, should one obey an unjust law? Obviously, such an individual like Antigone in ancient Greece is naturally torn between two loyalties. (Note 1) If he obeys the law, he would be guilty of knowingly aiding to sustain an unjust system. If he follows his moral judgment and violate the law, he would be charged with the penalty stipulated in the law.

    Just Laws, Unjust Laws, Civil Disobedience

  101. SilverDarling says:

    Rentoul is an example of how they argue black is white and rules don’t apply to them.

    I think the time for trying to meet the ever changing arbitrary conditions imposed by UK governments for Independence are over. This ‘you’ve had your democracy for now’ argument really doesn’t wash.

    We set our own criteria, make them fair, watertight and open to international scrutiny.When they are met we invite the UK government to disagree on legal grounds. Reasonable arguments are not going to do it at this time. The Act of Union needs legal challenge now.

    I suspect there will soon be quite overt threats of withholding block grants or finances as this argument progresses.

    We will withhold your money or impose direct rule if you don’t shut up.

    The budget delay looks like a sleekit wee attempt of doing this at present. Does this give legal grounds to challenge the UK government for not abiding by the devolution agreement?

  102. Breeks says:

    I better put a disclaimer on my earlier comment. I definitely DO NOT recommend anybody should try to burn down Holyrood. It was said tongue in cheek, but it was still a stupid thing to say knowing how some people react to what gets said here, and taken out of context.

    What I meant was a “Parliament” loyal to Westminster, not Scotland, might yet be as infamous and out of place as an East German Police Station in modern Germany. It’s most poignant significance might be as an empty building…

  103. CameronB Brodie says:

    I honestly don’t think Scots have the mentality for civil disobedience. We’re too subservient. We’ve been domesticated (see the BBC in Scotland).

    Civil Disobedience and Its Ethical Meaning

  104. Mike d says:

    The next Scottish parliamentary election is on may 6th 2021. The SNP mandate should be ( dont mention independence). A majority of the 129 msp’s for the SNP will mean the immediate dissolvement of the union.

  105. HYUFD says:

    Kangaroo As has been seen with Spain in Catlonia the international community will not respect a referendum result from an unauthorised referendum opposed and ruled illegal by the central government

  106. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breeks –

    Hard to imagine anyone believes you ever meant any such dastardliness, and I hope you didn’t take my 11.14 as any kind of dig at you or anyone else who was criticising Craig Murray.

    There’s a real Catch-22 to be dealt with, and many of us seem terrified of it – overturn the established order whilst avoiding law-breaking. It just doesn’t compute. Omelettes & eggs…

  107. Giving Goose says:


    What happened in Kosovo?

  108. kapelmeister says:


    As you’ve been told often enough before, a referendum without a section 30 would not be illegal.

  109. HYUFD says:

    Shug Northern Ireland is not staying part of the EU just the Customs Union and parts of the single market as per the Good Friday Agreement until a full Free Trade Deal is Agreed as it borders another country, the Republic of Ireland unlike Scotland.You are correct though a reunited Ireland would see hundreds of thousands of hardline Ulster Unionist Protestant and Orange Order backers return to their ancestral home of Scotland

  110. HYUFD says:

    Giving Goose Kosovo was a result of a civil war

  111. Abulhaq says:

    For many this link will be rather disturbing.
    Independence through ‘violence’ as opposed to ‘negotiation’ seems to have its rewards.
    Violence appears to be a more successful means for attaining independence when the colonial power has invested more in the infrastructure of the colony.
    More of a settlement colony than an exploitation colony
    Strong economic profits – rich resources
    Investments have been made in institutions, infrastructure etc.
    Scotland is a British state asset!

  112. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “As you’ve been told often enough before, a referendum without a section 30 would not be illegal.”

    That’s not quite what they said. They said “opposed and ruled illegal by the central government”.

  113. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I honestly don’t think Scots have the mentality for civil disobedience. We’re too subservient. We’ve been domesticated (see the BBC in Scotland).”

    I agree, except that I don’t think it’s particular to Scots. I don’t think it’s in the nature of the British generally. We have very little history of it, unlike (say) the French.

  114. Capella says:

    I think it was Lenin who said that a revolution would be difficult in Germany. Before occupying a railway station, they would first have to buy a platform ticket.

    For the sake of good order.

    However, with enough provocation in the 1930s they overcame their reticence.

  115. kapelmeister says:

    There is a perfectly legal alternative to civil disobedience.

    Uncivil obedience.

  116. CameronB Brodie says:

    “I agree, except that I don’t think it’s particular to Scots. I don’t think it’s in the nature of the British generally. We have very little history of it, unlike (say) the French.”


  117. jfngw says:


    Technically we don’t need a referendum, the SNP hold almost 80% of Scottish seats they can declare independence if they so choose and meets the UK constitution that a majority of seats that count, not the vote. It is the same system that took Scotland into the union and who could object to using the same criteria for leaving.

    Before you mention a voters mandate, there is no requirement for actions of parliamentarians to be mandated by the people, happens regularly.

  118. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood @

  119. Capella says:

    Well if you discount the Peasants’ Revolt, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Peterloo, the Luddites, Scottish Insurrection, the Weavers, the Jacobite Rebellion – to name a few.

    See E.P. Thompson,The Making of the English Working Class and Tom Johnston, The History of the Scottish Working Class.

  120. Abulhaq says:

    [You are correct though a reunited Ireland would see hundreds of thousands of hardline Ulster Unionist Protestant and Orange Order backers return to their ancestral home of Scotland]
    Would it? Your understanding of the Ulster situation is typically, for Unionists, sketchy and highly tendentious.
    Besides many of the Protestant settlers were from England. Scots Catholics, both Gaelic and Scots speaking, also settled in the province to escape persecution.
    Be careful what you wish for. Hard line Protestants may fetch up on your shores.

  121. CameronB Brodie says:

    If Scots choose not to defend their legal rights from English cultural chauvinism, they let the world’s poor down by diluting the normative value of human rights.

    In Defense of Uncivil Disobedience

    My goal in this new project is to conceptualize and make room for the justification of uncivil disobedience. This project is based on the first two chapters of the book I am currently completing, Duty to Disobey: Revisiting Political Obligation. I now plan to write a separate journal article arguing for the need to make conceptual and normative space for uncivil disobedience. What follows is the basic outline I envision for this article.

  122. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 11.14
    Sorry wasn’t being mysterious @ 12.53 I hit post to soon 🙂
    Anyhoo…. What I was going to say was….
    I guess I was one of those giving Craig Murry “pelters” and for two reasons.

    Firstly,as Craig will know there are laws about plotting stuff online,people have gone to jail for it, terrorism is what Westminster say it is and we’d do well to Denver that.

    Secondly. If there is to be any discussion of “civil disobedience” here should be instigated by the Rev not someone from another blog! No one who reads here can fail to notice we have our own share of nutters!

    I’m not adverse to conversations at all but they should be face to face ….. There are no laws YET stopping that

  123. Liz g says:

    Me @ 1.04
    FFS….. We don’t need to Denver anything… We just need to REMEMBER…
    One of those day’s I need to stay off line I think 🙂

  124. Macart says:

    @ Socrates MacSporran

    Oh, I’d say there’s a great many soundbite statements that could be chucked back in their faces.

    They could start with ‘dead in a ditch’ and work their way backwards: ‘red lines’, ‘strong and stable’, pooling and sharing’, ‘line in the sand’, ‘lead with us…’, ‘better together’ etc.

    Apparently though, you’re not allowed to throw their bullshit statements back in their faces because… reasons and badgers. Also, it may cause upset to the poor dears.

  125. lothian lad says:

    HYUFD = FUD!

    The international community accepted the baltic states. I can smell your desperation from here.

  126. Willie says:

    Ah well. On the first of February and to an explosion of Brit Nat celebratory extravaganza we humble Scots can cower having been dragged out of Europe.

    And as the ex Labour U.K. energy minister Brian Wilson opined in a journalistic piece only a few days ago we Scots are just going to have to get used to it.

    And that ladies and gents is the Labour sentiment. You might have voted by a large majority to remain, but get used to it.

    And yes Mr Wilson’s party May only have one Scottish MP but we cannot but help think that Mr Wilson has a point!

  127. Willie says:

    Ah well. On the first of February and to an explosion of Brit Nat celebratory extravaganza we humble Scots can cower having been dragged out of Europe.

    And as the ex Labour U.K. energy minister Brian Wilson opined in a journalistic piece only a few days ago we Scots are just going to have to get used to it.

    And that ladies and gents is the Labour sentiment. You might have voted by a large majority to remain, but get used to it.

    And yes Mr Wilson’s party May only have one Scottish MP but we cannot but help think that Mr Wilson has a point! A very good point. Nicola please note.

  128. CameronB Brodie says:

    Westminster only maintains its notional sovereignty, through adherence to English civil law. Why the fuck should Scots feel bound under the moral philosophy of another nation. English law was deemed superior to Scots law, as the Magna Carter was the only human rights law available at that time. That is simply not the case now, as international law is well regarded. Except in the intallectual confines of English legal culture.

    Civil disobedience, and what else? Making space for uncivil forms of resistance

  129. Lenny Hartley says:

    O/T Due to the weather and lack of Boats those of us from Arran who are not already on the Mainland will be holding a pop up Rally in solidarity with AUOB at the Slipway in Brodick at 11:00.
    Any Wingers or anybody else for that matter stranded on Arran are welcome to attend, but bring waterproofs as well as banners and Flags.

  130. jfngw says:

    Very amusing, BBC making big deal about NI power sharing resuming. Decode this as the Tories no longer need DUP votes and have told them to take a hike. The DUP were quite happy to have no government in NI whilst they had the future of the Tories in their hands, now they seem to want it restored, is this just face saving.

    The DUP have in a sense reaped the same as the LibDem’s for working with the Tories, not in such a large scale but still a loss of their majority of MP’s.

  131. HYUFD says:

    Jfngw Except Westminster is still the supreme lawmaker for the UK and has a Tory majority of seats

  132. HYUFD says:

    Abulhaq A few Protestants in Ulster were English (mainly from Norman times) but the vast majority were Presbyterians from Scotland settled there under the direction of James 1st in the 17th century on

  133. CameronB Brodie says:

    What do you understand about constitutional law and moral philosophy? Take you’re cultural arrogance and ram it, please.

  134. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Liz g (1.04) –

    I hear ye, but my comment explicitly addressed this idea of ‘plotting’, ‘conspiracy’ etc.

    If I had the talents of a Mr Robot I wouldn’t be commenting here, I’d be off with my own version of FSociety, planning all sorts of mischief, aye, but I don’t, so needs must. ‘We do what we can with what we have’ an aw that…

    But I’m not advocating anything dangerous, surreptitious or illegal – I’m asking for a serious and open discussion about practical, safe, cost-effective forms of ‘disobedience’. (Craig Murray can speak for himself but I’m pretty sure he would agree.)

  135. schrodingers cat says:

    it demonstrates how independence will never be won by playing “fair and square” with the British establishment, with its endless history of moving the goalposts to ensure it can never lose. It really is time we got in a fight.

    i agree, less rhetoric, more action………..

    any specific action you care to share?

  136. jfngw says:


    Not if Scotland declared the Union dissolved, you would then need to invade to restore you prison.

  137. CameronB Brodie says:

    Get this right up yourself, ToryBoy. You fail to respect the political consciousness of a nation, so I am confident in doubting your commitment to democracy.

    Full text.

    Legal Unity as Political Unity? Carl Schmitt and Hugo Krabbe on the Catalonian Constitutional Crisis


    This article offers an analysis of how theories on constitutional revision can help understand crises that threaten legal unity. The Catalonian crisis represents the case study, and is discussed from the perspective of constitutional theory. The article starts out from a conceptualisation of ‘legal unity’ as the organisational as well as political claim of constitutions to provide unity within a certain legal order, which in the end comes close to the idea of a unified national state.

    The article refers to the constitutional theories of Carl Schmitt and, the lesser-known Hugo Krabbe, to help increase the understanding of constitutional change and, to connect these insights to the Catalonian case. Schmitt’s claim is that constitutional law is indeterminate and thus in need of the sovereign’s decision.

    In this analysis, it is made clear that Schmitt’s argumentative scheme in which a distinction is made between friends and enemies in political conflict is unhelpful in addressing the Spanish crisis. Indeed, Schmitt moves beyond descriptive and explanatory goals to defend a normative rejection of liberal political decision-making. By contrast, Krabbe argues for the determinacy of constitutional law. According to Krabbe, constitutional law is finally embedded in ‘legal consciousness’, inherent to all human beings, and which can be determined by majority rule.

    Even if this answer may not be entirely convincing, it is maintained that this theoretical perspective could nevertheless benefit cases such as the Catalonian constitutional crisis, if as a consequence claims of both the Catalan as well as the Spanish sides based on the idea of ultimate sovereignty over a demarcated territory were dropped.

    Keywords: legal unity, political unity, constitutional amendment, revision, change, independence, Catalonia, Spain, popular sovereignty, political decision, legal consciousness, Carl Schmitt, Hugo Krabbe

  138. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think this article helps explain why the Scottish public is unlikely to defend their human rights from Westminster’s authoritarianism, without adequate encouragement.

    Full text.

    The Effects of Civic Consciousness and Civil Disobedience on Support for and Participation in Contentious Politics

  139. HYUFD says:

    Jfngw The Spanish just sent in the civil guard to prevent a referendum taking place and arrest Catalan nationalist leaders

  140. jfngw says:


    I know you like to think Catalan and Scotland are the same, but they are not. Catalan is part of Spain and not in a voluntary Union. Anyone should be able to leave a union when they feel it no longer represents their best interests. And your posting is the perfect example of why this is imperative, you just can’t take the colonial mentality out of some.

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    If I was as big a wanker as you appear to be, I certainly wouldn’t parade my bigotry for the rest of the worldf to snigger at.

    Political Consciousness

  142. HandandShrimp says:

    Never read any of this chap’s wibblings prior to today. I will make a point of avoiding doing so in the future.

    One gets the impression that if the SNP won all 59 seats it still wouldn’t be enough…”just because” would appear to the intellectual level he is operating at.

    Labour leaning? Looks more like 19th century Empire leaning to me.

  143. Liz g says:

    HYFUD @ 2.04
    Yes they did…. It’s that what you think should happen in Scotland?
    Would you expect or call for Westminster to quell a Referendum by force?
    Would you say nothing?
    Or would you call for your government to respect the rights of Scottish voters?
    Pick one!

  144. CameronB Brodie says:

    If in doubt, refer to legal reason.

    From Collective Legal Consciousness to Legal Consciousness of Collective Dissent?

  145. Breeks says:

    HYUFD says:
    10 January, 2020 at 1:22 pm
    Jfngw Except Westminster is still the supreme lawmaker for the UK and has a Tory majority of seats

    Except it’s no such thing when it comes to unlawful prorogation and an adjudication from the Court of Session which the UK Prime Minister was legally bound to respect.

    Hmmm. Wonder what else Westminster isn’t sovereign over… Answers on a postcard to Nicola Sturgeon, Bute House, Edinburgh…

  146. Abulhaq says:

    Wherever they originated, and precise numbers are difficult to quantify, the ultras among the modern descendants have an ideological home in England not Scotland, a country they would find somewhat politically uncomfortable. In addition Irish nationalism owes a lot to the 18th century Protestant, particularly Presbyterian, activists of the Society of United Irishmen.
    The Catholic Church of the time was opposed to Irish independence and indeed the Gaelic language which it considered a barrier to ‘education’. The national seminary at Maynooth was founded with British finance.
    It is well known that the defeat of James VII & II was greeted with a Te Deum of thanksgiving in Rome, proving that power politics was the operator more than religion.
    The presentation of Ulster and indeed Irish history in toto as a sectarian struggle is exactly what the ideologues of Unionism would have the citizens believe. The devil is truly in the detail.

  147. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 1.32
    That’s the thing though…. I’ve a few suggestions and I’m not the only one.
    While not violent or even illegal, more as commented above ,”uncivil disobedience ” but I’d never discuss them online,and certainly not on the most popular Indy Blog unless and until that was a part of the process.
    Those laws about plotting online weren’t only designed for actual terrorists they are for everyone.

    Also…. Just because it’s rarely mentioned in the Brexit conversation and as an FYI for everyone…..

    Capital Punishment for – Treason – was only removed as a law by the Blair government in the mid 90s.
    At the insistence of the EU or the ECJ ( as I understand it )
    On the 1st of February there’s nothing stopping them bringing it back!
    Jist sayin

  148. CameronB Brodie says:

    The legal consciousness of popular sovereignty, is somewhat different to that which is required under parliamentary sovereignty. They produce radically different legal ideologies and cultures. Sorry, but my understanding of the law is heavily influenced by the legal realism movement and feminist jurisprudence.


  149. Liz g says:

    Abulhac @ 2.30
    It’s not just Ulster Unionist that have a monopoly on presenting the conflicts in Ireland as a religious struggle.
    All those with a position to maintain on every level have played that game.
    It’s probably the earliest from of social engineering there is and it still works so well for the British State….

  150. orri says:

    Westminster does not even have full sovereignty in England according to the Parliament Act.

    They have to have a mandate gained at a general election or the HoL can delay or prevent them doing anything.

    Arguably they could say they had one for Brexit in the last parliament with support from the DUP. Makes it hard to deny Holyrood has a mandate for independence if they do.

    Without a mandate they can always threaten to elevate enough Lords to do their bidding but that escalates.

    Also the manifesto they stood on might be so broadly worded that their nullification if not outright destruction of devolution justified but if they proceed without the agreement on Holyrood either by a consent motion or a S30 then I’d argue they’re more guilty of acting illegally in devolved matters as Holyrood would be in holding a consultation on independence via referendum. None of those standing outwith Scotland have a claim to a mandate on devolved matters.

  151. msean says:

    I like this bit,”So far as Scotland is concerned, the UK is Schrodinger’s Democracy, except our cat is always dead.” Dictatorship is exactly what it is.

  152. CameronB Brodie says:

    It isn’t ToryBoy’s presence that annoys me, it’s the condescending colonialist mentality he represents.

    Impartial principle and moral context: securing a place for the particular in ethical theory.


    The dispute between impartialists and partialists dominates much modern moral and political philosophy. This book is an attempt to investigate what is at stake between impartialists and their opponents, and to suggest a possible reconciliation. It begins by noting that, in political philosophy, impartiality is normally taken to reflect a belief in the equality of all human beings. However, in a world characterized by plural and competing conceptions of the good, not everyone accepts that all human beings are equal.

    Belief in equality is part of a comprehensive, and contested, conception of the good. Therefore, if liberal impartiality is to gain support, it must provide an alternative foundation: one which can demonstrate the priority of justice, but which does not depend upon acceptance of a particular conception of the good. I suggest that this foundation is to be found in a form of impartialism that gives centrality to the partial concerns we have for particular others. The fact that we care for particular others can provide a justification for impartialism and can also explain its motivational force.

    equality, good, justice, liberalism, moral impartialism, partiality, pluralism, political impartialism

  153. orri says:

    To go for broke though,

    is trans scottish or transscottish the correct term for someone who makes strident claims at being a scot despite no evidence to support it and compounds it by shouting down actual scots and demanding we behave in a certain manner and obey them?

  154. bittie45 says:

    Robin McAlpine on Indy Live’s podcast is ESSENTIAL listening, in my view.

    He discusses the need to request a section 30, and the process through which it will be granted. Has anyone else listened?

  155. Republicofscotland says:

    Good article, you expose the absurdity of Westminster and it conflicting and unfair attempts to bamboozle and deceive Scots.

    As you clearly point out the goalposts are and will continue to move. I think most of us are fed up with non entities South of the border telling Scots what they can and can’t do.

    As expected from Johnson soon, a no indyref reply, I do hope the SNP become a bit more pro-active.

    I’d love to see Blackford and the other SNP MP’s, after Johnsons refusal to sanction a S30 walk out of Westminster until Johnson changes his mind.

  156. JohnD says:

    I generally agree with the content of the post, except to say that it isn’t parliamentary democracy that gives a UK party absolute power on the minority of the vote – after all, the devolved Scottish Government is a parliamentary democracy, as are several European governments (e.g. Germany)

    It’s actually the fault of the voting system for Westminster that causes the problem.

    I think you also end up on a sticky wicket with the mandate in the current Scottish parliament if you examine their manifestos, since (I’ve heard argued) the Greens placed odd conditions on when they’d seek another referendum which haven’t really been met. Though I would agree that this is a technicality in a parliamentary system, since the Parliament itself has voted in favour of such a referendum.

  157. I think that at the end of the day we are going to be forced to fight for our freedom .,. We are being denied any respect and they insult our inteligence insult us at every turn its like they are goading us but I would remind them of the old saying beware the fury of a patient man .,.andif it does come to a fight well I’ve got a little list that’s getting bigger all the time

  158. Dr Jim says:

    People who fight for their right to be bigots and racists usually fight harder than those who fight against them, I wonder which of those people invented the term terrorist with which to accuse the other

    The American movie industry always painted the cowboy baddies wearing black hats and the goodies wearing white hats, now it’s the other way round as the baddies portray themselves as the goodies

    The West kills people and bombs them from their homes to achieve an aim or to steal their assets then cries terrorist when the survivers hit them back, then the West uses the language of *protecting our values* against those people because they wear differnt clothes, speak a different language or worship God in a different style

    In Scotland we wore different clothes, we spoke a different language, we worshipped in a different style, we don’t do much of those things anymore

    A three hundred year subjugation did that, and funnily enough Scotland has assets

    There’s no difference between Scots and any other country that’s been invaded bombed or killed for what they’ve got, the English in general don’t hate us but they don’t love us either, they’re indifferent towards us because they feel they own us and as long as we keep our cheeky mouths firmly shut and stop demanding our rights they won’t punish us

    The duplicity the UK English government employ is the same as when the American colonists smilingley gave the indigenous American Indians blankets infected with Small Pox
    There’s nothing about these people you can trust, not a word, not a document, nothing

    “The UK will “not normally” legislate in devolved areas without the consent of the Scottish government” then they declared that all circumstances were now “not normal” so therefore they did, and do whatever they want because they’re lying thieving low life Bastirts, and you can’t pick and choose between them as to who’s good or who’s bad because their record displays that given the choice England is the priority and Scotland can suck it

    Take heart though because there are people in Scotland not prepared to *suck it*

  159. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I find that non UK Born Brits strive to be even more British than the indigenous BritNats.

    A bit like the Korean Guards in Japanese POW Camps who were more brutal than their Japanese masters (a kind of Sycophantic “look I can do this as well if not better than you, boss”).

    Like the dude referred to above and Malaysian born Fiona Bruce of BBCQT try to out Brit the BritNats.

    Like Scots who can only be Scottish through country of birth but really, really wish they were English (because they believe that makes them better in a kind of Class War type of way) but can’t so say they are British instead (so in their head making them 2nd Class rather than 3rd Class).

    The kind of Zealots really, who believe in God, Queen and Country and think no one can be right but them.

  160. Big Jock says:

    I think the SNP must resign from Holyrood and force a Scottish election. The manifesto being vote SNP and we will proceed to negotiate independence. The consultative referendum will probably not work. Because it will probably rely on a 70- 80% turnout and the Tories will boycott. We could end up in a Catalonia so what scenario.

  161. Ian Foulds says:

    Ian Brotherhood at 11.14am

    Civil Disobedience Discussion.

    Agreed, discussion as to legal ways to disrupt and frustrate the British State is required to help make them or their supporters want to get rid of us.

    I have mooted this since the RIC conference in the latter part of last year.

  162. bittie45 says:

    Dr Jim on 10 January, 2020 at 3:51 pm

    Robin McAlpine’s view is that pressure be put on westminister through a campaign by scotgov starting off with legal obstructive tactics, then progressively increasing the pressure without resorting to anything which could turn the public against them.

    Robin says he will be publishing a paper on this. After 31st Jan things really need to move forward. Hopefully he will be a campaign advisor to the SNP.

  163. Abulhaq says:

    @CameronB Brodie 3:11
    Appropriation of history, culture, territory, the body and mind, the lethal symptoms of the Scotch Unionist ie neo-colonialist virus.
    Everything reduced to their mocking stereotype..guys in skirts with red hair, hairy knees, silly accents, no sense of humour, often drunk but make brilliant and oh such loyal soldiers, “it is no mischief if they fall” and plenty more where they come from.
    As someone labelled a dirty, ignorant, nasty extremist towelhead I do know that revenge can be very sweet when it hits the target. It’s best to stay cool and serve the dish well chilled.

  164. twathater says:

    @ Hi Ya Fud 12.37 pm I haven’t responded to any of your previous lying comments before because I think you’re just an attention seeker and a twat out to disrupt the thread .

    But I will on this occasion because I not only think you are a twat but you are a dangerous twat attempting to cause alarm and fear by snidely inferring that hundreds and thousands of hard line unionists and OO members will be coming here , to do what exactly , what is it they will be doing , are you indulging in the usual threats of the brutish nationalists , are you using the well known divide and conquer methodology loved by the brit nats to foment violence by stirring up sectarianism .
    You absolutely sicken me , you are a FAILED WANNABE politician that couldn’t be elected by his own people , yet you come on to this independence supporting site constantly spouting pish which has been refuted time immemorial , go and do something useful with your life , go and help out at your local food bank , help out at a charity , or something that will help the poor in england of which there are many , but forget about having anything to do with Scotland and it’s independence we don’t need your lies and covert threats

  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    Britain has never been a proper liberal democracy, and is now moving rapidly from a state of democratic ambiguity, to failed state status.

    Moral Agency, Commitment, and Impartiality


    Liberal political philosophy presupposes a moral theory according to which the ability to assess and choose conceptions of the good from a universal and impartial moral standpoint is central to the individual’s moral identity. This viewpoint is standardly understood by liberals as that of a rational human (not transcendental) agent. Such an agent is able to reflect on her ends and pursuits, including those she strongly identifies with, and to understand and take into account the basic interests of others. From the perspective of liberalism as a political morality, the most important of these interests is the interest in maximum, equal liberty for each individual, and thus the most important moral principles are the principles of justice that protect individuals’ rights to life and liberty.

    According to the communitarian critics of liberalism, however, the liberal picture of moral agency is unrealistically abstract. Communitarians object that moral agents in the real world neither choose their conceptions of the good nor occupy a universalistically impartial moral standpoint. Rather, their conceptions of the good are determined chiefly by the communities in which they find themselves, and these conceptions are largely “constitutive” of their particular moral identities. Moral agency is thus “situated” and “particularistic,” and an impartial reflection on the conception of the good that constitutes it is undesirable, if not impossible. Further, communitarians contend, the good is “prior” to the right in the sense that moral norms are derived from, and justified in terms of, the good. An adequate moral and political theory must reflect these facts about moral agency and moral norms.

  166. CameronB Brodie says:

    One for Scotland’s legal experts who feel ambivalent about constitutional justice, or who support gender-ideology in law. Twats.


  167. robertknight says:


    I have family, of the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist persuasion in Ulster, (we don’t discuss politics), who, whilst not the worst I’ve encountered, are nonetheless members of various organisations including the OO and Freemasons.

    They’ve told me in no uncertain terms that in the event a x-border poll results in a unified Ireland they’d be heading east across the water. They and plenty more of their generation would do the same.

    Anecdotally a good number would be of the sort you wouldn’t want as neighbours – unless you want to live on a street that on a daily basis looks like parts of Kilwinning in July.

    If Ayrshire and Lanarkshire are to be spared, we need Indy before Ireland is unified.

  168. Craig Murray says:


    on referenda “ruled illegal by central government”, it is high time the SNP stopped referring to Westminster as “central government”.

    It is not “central government”. Westminster is foreign government.

  169. Colin Alexander says:

    Anybody that expects the SNP leadership to do anything other than play it by the rules is indulging in wishful thinking.

    They are third party of Westminster and the Scot Govt. Privy Counsellors too.

    They have bedded in as part of the British Establishment.

  170. Dr Jim says:

    @bittie 45 4:20pm

    I’m afraid i’m not a fan of Robin McAlpine, I find he tends to make assumptions as to what the SNP are either doing or not doing then repeating it without the knowledge of either

    You can make guesses as to what a political party may be working on but with the SNP you can’t assume because they don’t talk until they’re ready, the SNP are more aware than anybody as to the nature of Tory England, they’re steeped in the history of their betrayals, but in the end the SNP are only a legitimate political party not a protest party and there are things they can’t do that others assume they can because they know one wrong step and Holyrood is shut down to be replaced by whoever England decides is going to run things in their wee colony……up there

    The people are the power and engine of Scotland, the SNP can only steer the vehicle we give them, we need to give them a more powerful engine that England can’t stop

    Right now England needs the rest of the world on their side for trade deals, security deals,co-operation over total world engagement and everything else that they just stupidly got rid of with the EU and at the moment all those things are within the power of everybody else except them

    Robin McAlpine thinks now is too soon for Independence, I believe he’s completely wrong and that now is the most opportune moment we might ever have, and while the English are scrambling around looking for pals is the time to be kicking the legs out from under them

    England is not in the strong position they like to make out they are so I believe kick them when they’re down and make sure they can’t ever get up to kick us back because if we wait and allow them to recover we’ve had it

  171. twathater says:

    I agree with Big Jock @ 4.16pm and have stated this on various blogs , the resignation of the SNP SG would force a new HR election where they could stand on one issue , that of immediate dissolution of the union , the result would be the decision of the Scottish people

    The voters would have to decide do they want to be governed and ruled by this corrupt and lying cabal of shysters in wastemonster , or do they want their and their children’s future to be formed in an Independent Scotland by people who care about Scots
    To me it’s a no brainer if the SNP win we have independence if the SNP lose then the Scot buts will reap the benefits of a brexited UK at the mercy of the trumpet us , we have all said at one time that we don’t appreciate the many things that we have , free prescriptions , free uni, child care , social care, great SNHS , and many others , so the fence sitters would have to decide , a better Scotland or a ravished Scotland
    This atrophy and indecision helps no one let’s FORCE PEOPLE TO DECIDE ,civil disobedience is only effective if it hurts wastemonster not Scotland

  172. Dorothy Devine says:

    Is the march starting at 11.30 or 1 p.m? – I’m obviously confused as I thought it was 1p.m but the National is saying 11.30.

  173. scotspatriot says:

    11030am March starts

  174. scotspatriot says:

    1130hrs March starts

  175. jfngw says:


    Not sure he is an attention seeker, but pretty sure he thinks he’s a smart arse. He comes here to disrupt and throw up bogus shit because he believes he is baiting us. I sometimes amuse myself my responding with equal bullshit, he then wastes his time responding. He leaves thinking he has won an argument about bullshit, which I agree, he is a bullshit expert.

  176. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s another source I think some of Scotland’s judges need to make themselves familiar with.

    A Treatise of Social Justice, Vol. I: Theories of Justice.

  177. CameronB Brodie says:

    And another one, especially for that twat who appears to reject the theory of evolution.

    Relevance of Weber’s Approach

  178. Tam Fae somewhere says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    10 January, 2020 at 5:10 pm
    Is the march starting at 11.30 or 1 p.m? – I’m obviously confused as I thought it was 1p.m but the National is saying 11.30.

    It would be dark for some marchers if we started at 13:00.

  179. Meindevon says:

    Just spotted a press association article by Ben Bradshaw, my MP down here, who is pretty convinced that Scotland will be independent soon.

    He said: “I have no doubt at all that Scotland will become independent.

    “It is completely untenable that the Government in London is denying Scots the right to self-determination.

    “The Scots expressed in the 2016 EU referendum, and in the two subsequent general elections, that they do not want to leave the EU.

    “It is important to understand that the United Kingdom is based on the consent of all parts of the country.”

    He said: “I am married to a Scotsman. Every member of our family in Scotland voted against independence in the 2014 referendum.

    “But in December’s general election they all gave their vote to the SNP for the first time in their lives. And they would now vote differently from 2014.

    “Scotland will become independent. I’m 100% certain about that.”

    I spoke to him on the doorstep before the GE and he said the same to me then. Here’s hoping he’s right! It’s just a shame none of the likely new leaders of Labour feel able to bring themselves to ‘allow’ a referendum to be even held.

  180. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve mentioned relational autonomy before, which is a key concept in contemporary bioethics and end-of-life ethics. Westminster is currently allowing Scotland zero relational autonomy. So here’s a peak at Relational Justice.


    Justice, arguably, is a relational concept. This is inherent in the early definitions of justice that link the term to the virtue of individuals. More precisely, Aristotle refers to justice in a general sense as the most perfect virtue because it is displayed towards others (pros heteron).1

    The famous formula suum cuique tribuere also requires a relational understanding.2 This concept is composed of variables that are in need of determination if a specific conception of justice is to result; it leaves open the object of assignment and, at the same time, it presupposes already existing standards about what is due. This openness is not a deficiency of the formula but, instead, a call for reflexivity, which aims at justifying the relevant standards of appropriateness.

    At least since the natural rights theories in modern times, the matter of justice has been focused on the configuration of rights and duties and therefore on relations vis-à-vis others. Whereas the operational dimension of justice is about the compliance of actions with given legal norms that configure rights and duties—administered by courts that are supposed to treat like cases alike – the second reflexive dimension is about the justification for these norms from an impartial point of view.

  181. twathater says:

    Can I ask people’s view on the SNP SG resigning and causing a HR election , what in their opinion would be the benefits or alternatively the downsides
    It would force the brit nats to explain the benefits ( ha ha ha )of remaining in the onion

  182. robertknight says:


    Sure you can ask. I’ll bore you and others with my reply…

    *Single issue manifesto – end the Union.


    * >50% of votes cast, AND
    * >50% of seats won, THEN…

    All Scottish MPs recalled from Westmonster and negotiations begin.

    Perfectly democratic and legitimate by any standard. No referendum needed and no arguing over wording, funding, campaign influence, dark money etc. etc.

    What’s not to like?

  183. Dorothy Devine says:

    Thanks chaps!

  184. CameronB Brodie says:

    Personally I don’t see much point, and would prefer if the SNP used existing law to protect the legal rights of those living in Scotland. They have a legal duty to protect civil society and public health in Scotland. I don’t see much evidence that this is being respected.

    Law’s Relations: A Relational Theory of Self, Autonomy, and Law


    Autonomy is one of the core concepts of legal and political thought, yet also one of the least understood. The prevailing theory of liberal individualism characterizes autonomy as independence, yet from a social perspective, this conception is glaringly inadequate. In this brilliantly innovative work, Jennifer Nedelsky claims that we must rethink our notion of autonomy, rejecting the usual vocabulary of control, boundaries, and individual rights. If we understand that we are fundamentally in relation to others, she argues, we will recognize that we become autonomous with others—with parents, teachers, employers, and the state. We should not therefore regard autonomy as merely a conceptual tool for assigning rights, but as a capacity that can be fostered or undermined throughout one’s life through the relationships and the societal structures we inhabit.

    The political project thus should not only be to protect the individual from the state and keep the state out, but to use law to construct relations with the state that enhance autonomy. Law’s Relations includes many concrete legal applications of her theory of relational autonomy, offering new insights into the debates over due process, judicial review, violence against women, and private versus public law.

    autonomy, relational theory, rights, human rights, women’s rights, private law, public law, due process, judicial review

  185. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. I know the SNP governs for the whole of Scotland and they do not have a mandate for independence. That does not absolve them of their duty to protect Scotland though. The union is voluntary, and compliance with Westminster law is entirely Scotland’s choice.

  186. ahundredthidiot says:

    twathater @6:05

    sure as shit makes my eyes water….

  187. shug says:

    HYUFD says @12.37
    There can be no free trade!!
    If we do not pay the subscription there must be tariffs to make up the EU budget.
    The border must either be reinstated or removed
    The Irish lobby in the US will ensure the OK is held to its Good Friday agreement
    NI will be given the option for reunification

  188. mike cassidy says:

    twathater 6.05

    It would force the brit nats to explain the benefits ( ha ha ha )of remaining in the onion

    And, as Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell sang

    the only way to get rid of this great big onion
    Is to plant love seeds until it dies

  189. Dr Jim says:

    Remember when they would only exchange our Scottish £1 notes for 19/6d now they’re threatening not to recognise Scottish passports if and when they’re issued

  190. Robert Kerr says:

    No WoS stall tomorrow so where shall we congregate?

  191. shug says:

    twathater says@6.05

    All elections are a gamble but I think it would be a good one. Include a wings party and it would be a belter as the Unionists lose all their seats
    Make it on a platform for Independence and it become the referendum and that’s it done

  192. Dr Jim says:

    We’ll have a hard border they say, you won’t like that they say
    I say fine and we’ll be moving the maritime border back from Arbroath to Berwick on Tweed where it’s supposed to be as per international boundary law and put up a no fishing notice past it, suck that up

    There’s an answer to everything they have

  193. Dan says:

    Spoke with a serial moaner earlier and today’s “Scotland Baaad” complaint was to do with the new blend of diesel / bio diesel clogging tractors fuel filters.

    I duly pointed out to the stupid fucker that his own business doesn’t recycle or worry about the toxic paint fumes and waste thinners it creates, so someone else has to attempt to keep the pollution down to a level where folk can actually breath…

  194. Dr Jim says:

    It’s at the stage where they want the FM to come round their houses and rub their bellies and tell them everything’s gonnae be awright
    Shower of moanin minnies cannae go for a bus by themselves
    Around 60 countries recently have taken their Independence from others and they’re jumping up and down celebrating it
    In Scotland it’s all but whit’ll we dae aboot this whit’ll we dae aboot that, will we still be able tae hiv a night light in wur bedrooms

  195. CameronB Brodie says:

    IMHO, Westminster has definitely lost the plot and democracy in Britain stands little hope of surviving Brexit. Westminster is playing a dangerous game, as research suggests the public begin to disregard the rule-of-law if they feel alienated from the legal process. Scotland has been totally excluded from the Brexit process, which will change just about every law currently in force, and which can be expected to have a negative effect on law and order in Britain.

    Critical Jurisprudence
    The Political Philosophy of Justice

  196. sassenach says:

    twathater and Big Jock

    Forcing a Holyrood election would likely fail because of the present voting system, and all the ‘list’ members.

    Unless there was a new Indy party for list only (and an understanding with the SNP) then we are not going to get an overwhelming vote. It also takes time to set up a new party, with a universally liked leader, and agree terms with the SNP.

    Not an overnight undertaking.

    Let us see if there may be alternatives.

  197. HYUFD says:

    Shug The Withdrawal Agreement keeps Northern Ireland in the Customs Union and much of the single market until any trade deal is agreed, thus avoiding tariffs with the Republic of Ireland. Unless there is a Nationalist majority in NI there will be no border poll under the GFA.

  198. HYUFD says:

    Though as I have already mentioned a United Ireland would see hundreds of thousands of Protestant Ulster Unionists return home to their Scottish ancestral home, e.g. over 200 000 voted DUP last month. Thus it would have some upside for Unionists of effectively entrenching Scotland in the UK for ever

  199. sassenach says:

    Dr Jim

    You are a breath of fresh air, well done.

  200. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear to be pleased that Scotland’s democracy and civil society may be harmed further as a result of British nationalism. I honestly don’t think I’d piss on you if you were on fire.

    Autonomy in Moral and Political Philosophy

  201. Dan says:


    Unfortunately your posts on “Democracy” aren’t really relevant to Scotland in the U-UK context as we live in a “Shamocracy”.

    @Dr Jim

    In your capacity as a doctor can you take an online consultation and make a diagnosis.
    I’m still working my way through the crimbo chocolates and tonight I’ve opened a large tin of Toblerone, only to find it’s got a mix of normal Toblerone pieces, but also white and dark chocolate bastards too.
    I’ve tried putting dark and white chocolate pieces in my mouth at the same time and chewing them but the blend of dark and white extremes does not bring the flavour back to the mid-level conventional taste of Toblerone I’m used to finding palatable.
    My symptoms are that I feel no great need to blame the Scottish Government or “Sturgeon” for this situation.
    So am I a Scot or a Proud Scot but..?

  202. Scott says:

    Dr Jim says:
    10 January, 2020 at 6:51 pm
    Remember when they would only exchange our Scottish £1 notes for 19/6d now they’re threatening not to recognise Scottish passports if and when they’re issued

    Giving away your age now,I remember it well ordered some drinks offered money,told don’t take that here all I have I said a bit of talking ended up leaving the pub drinks on counter not very happy they were.Went into other place said what happened told no problem take your money anytime.
    I don’t know what they did with the drinks.

  203. Mist001 says:

    I dunno, I was in a pub once on the Seven Sisters Road in London (A Wetherspoons!) and I paid for a round of drinks with a Scottish tenner and got change of a twenty!

    Maybe they can’t afford to take Scottish notes!

  204. wullie says:

    Tibet builds, upgrades 43,000 km of rural roads in 5 yrs.
    Do we have 43,000 kilometres of roads in Scotland never mind builds and upgrades.

  205. CameronB Brodie says:

    ToryBoy simply can’t change his world from that of an English Tory, which is essentially a hop, skip and jump away from full-fat fascism.

    Democratic inclusion
    Populus, demos and self-rule

    Rainer Bauböck’s work on popular sovereignty, citizenship and the demos problem is an important touchstone for contemporary political, and especially democratic, theory. Grounded in attention to both the theoretical and empirical circumstances of individual and collective political agency, Bauböck offers a highly sophisticated and, in many ways, compelling approach to thinking through the philosophical and political challenges of citizenship and democracy in a global landscape characterized by a plurality of peoples, types of polity, multilevel governance and migration (internal and transnational).

    In this essay, I aim to put some pressure on the relationship between populus (i.e. the citizenry) and demos (i.e. those entitled, in one way or another, to participate in the decision-making process) in Bauböck’s account. Put another way, I accept Bauböck’s argument that the all citizenship stakeholders (ACS) principle is the best available principle for determining the composition of the citizenry but, in a particular and specific sense, reject the claim that it thereby also demarcates the demos….$002f9781526105257.00013.xml

  206. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Taking Stu’s point regarding the eternal goalpost shifting nature of our British political systems, it would seem only common sense to have a bash at leveling the playing field.

    Examining the vote-share of the political parties in Scotland and pondering on all plausible movement in these shares in the foreseeable future.

    I can’t envisage any Scottish Government being formed without the SNP being a part of it – A tripartite Unionist alliance may be the reality of the Holyrood opposition, but totally un-viable as a government.

    The creation of Two Listonlyan Parties – One Pro-Independence and the other Pro-Union, Should do the trick.

    I don’t even think we would have to set the Unionist one up ourselves – There should be no shortage of hate-filled, swivel-eyed Scotland-deniers out there – tripping over themselves to sign up.

    The “official” unionists who largely rely on the lists to get elected, faced with having their vote split four ways, would have to choose between committing Hara Kiri by advising their supporters to give their second vote to the alternative Unionists, or trying to save their miserable parliamentary skins by begging them not to vote Unionist.

    The SNP, who on the other hand get most of their seats from FPTP could afford to be a bit more relaxed about it, and say – Vote SNP/SNP … though if you love Scotland but have a problem with some of our policies – give the other lot your second vote.

    It might even save the SNP from being subsumed into the sea of Global Wokery.

  207. Colin Alexander says:

    Scot Govt are complaining a March UK budget is disrespectful to the Scottish Govt as it leaves them to draw up a budget not knowing what funds they will receive.

    Well, they could have a vote of no confidence over it and force a Holyrood election. Also using it as an indy plebiscite election as Scotland is being dragged out of the EU at the end of January and the SNP promised they wouldn’t allow it to happen.

    So, is this something the SNP would do?

    Of course no. Business as usual.

  208. CameronB Brodie says:

    True but I feel I’ve got to try.

  209. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I remember my dad paying a London taxi driver with a £1 (blue) Scottish note and getting change for a fiver … the clot handed the extra four quid back.

    I renounced Christianity on the spot.

  210. Dan says:


    Absolutely Cam, keep on keeping on, I didn’t mean your posting was pointless, more highlighting what we currently have against what you show we could have.

    In other thoughts anyone else eagerly looking forward to the NI Assembly in Stormont getting up and running again.
    I’m expecting the BBC will be bending over backwards to have plenty of footage from one of the Parliaments of our Family of Nations, seeing it has been closed for so long coz the environmentally friendly heating failed or something…

    Hopefully see more of Mary Lou McDonald bustin out some of her straight talkin wordage to da hoods residing in the big crumbling U-UK building in London town.

  211. CameronB Brodie says:

    Don’t worry, I got where you were coming from.

  212. velofello says:

    If as projected,Westminster does act to leave the EU on 31st January my view is that the SNP should simultaneously exit Westminster,and then convene in government with the MSPs at Holyrood, stating –

    “Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and remain we shall”.

    Seems like a suitable statement to the international community.

    Rules, for the guidance of the wise, and the obedience of fools.

  213. Mist001 says:

    @ velofello

    The problem is that Scotland cannot remain a member of the EU because it was never a member in the first place. The SNP have about two weeks to prevent Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will because it’s what they said. They’re going to have to come up with something good, maybe the mythical ‘Plan B’?

  214. twathater says:

    @ robertknight 4.57pm I agree with your examples , I have already stated similar on past posts , what I was referring to is that we are well aware that these extremists exist but we don’t need some brit nat to come on here and surrepteptuously infer that these extremists will alter our desire for independence
    jfngw @ 5.23pm HE may think he’s a smart arse but I think he’s just an arse or maybe a nosy arse

  215. terence callachan says:


    Having lived in Northern Ireland through the so called troubles I can tell you that Protestants , unionists , and any other people of Northern Ireland certainly will not come to Scotland if Ireland reunites.
    Robertknight says he has family there who say they will head off east across the water if Ireland is unified
    Scotland to the east perhaps
    But why didn’t they say they will head off to Scotland ?
    Perhaps because they would go to England

    Anyway hardly anyone living in Northern Ireland will leave Northern Ireland when Ireland reunities
    they like living there now
    It’s their home
    When Ireland is reunited Northern Ireland will improve economically in a big way which will allow people there a better life than they have ever had

  216. terence callachan says:


    Scotland doesn’t need to remain a member of the EU
    What Scotland needs is independence
    Once Scotland is independent
    It will rejoin the EU as an independent country

    The U.K. voted to leave the EU that is fact
    It was a UK vote
    Scotland will be dragged out of the EU because England had a bigger population than Scotland what’s new. . ? We always have to do what England decides that’s nothing new

  217. Colin Alexander says:

    “The problem is that Scotland cannot remain a member of the EU because it was never a member in the first place”.

    Due to the unique nature of the UK, eg the UK being a Union of equal partners, and the people of Scotland retaining sovereignty and voting Remain, that point could have been challenged in law. Nobody, such as the Scot Govt, or SNP, would challenge it in court though.

    But they were happy to go to court for UK constitutional matters such as prorogation of UK Parliament and cancelling Article 50.

  218. terence callachan says:

    Colin Alexander…

    See you tomorrow at the Scottish independence march in Glasgow

  219. frogesque says:

    HYUFD: 7.26

    200,000 Ulster bBrit Bats would up sticks, leave family, jobs etc just because Ireland voted to re-unite. Further, none of these folk would move to London, Liverpool or anywhere else , Europe includef ( yes they would still get into the EU) to make a living? No, they would all move to take up low paid jobs in substandard housing just to have a vote and keep Scotland in a busted Union?

    Gone are the days when the Union Flag on a business or council office meant ‘Catholics need not apply’. Ulster transplants would be bottom of the heap, despised by everyone including their Ludge pals.

    You know nothing of Scotland and even less of Norn Iron. I also suspect you know little of human nature.

  220. terence callachan says:


    I lived in England for many years , several different counties
    It was common for my money to be refused by shops and anywhere else
    Not just notes either

    Coins as well
    Scottish shillings had one lion English three lions
    Sixpences threepences etc etc were different too and refused as well

  221. terence callachan says:

    See you all at the march tomorrow

  222. velofello says:

    @ Mist001: Rules, for the guidance of the wise….

    Scotland , formed an equal partnership union with England and it’s termed the United Kingdom. Scotland voted to remain in the EU. Scotland’s citizens are EU citizens and must have the right to choose whether to retain that citizenship.
    That one partner has a much larger population doesn’t determine that the larger partner has holds a veto, and so England should not have the right to drag Scotland out of the EU.

    Points to consider –

    Scotland’s % of the UK population has been steadily reducing, it was circa 14% in the 1920’s.Why? And –

    The Gers “figures” show a deficit in Scotland’s finances,How come? Just how can a country that exports oil, gas, power, beverages be in deficit? Unless of course it is failing to sell it’s goods at a profit, or has a corrupt bookkeeper.

  223. Robert Louis says:

    Cameron B Brodie at 639pm,

    Yip, that is EXACTLY the point. The Scottish Government has a responsility, above all else, to protect Scots and the Scottish economy. Brexit completely trashes both. Regardless of any nonsense pretendy laws or cosntitutional ‘what-nots’ that Westminster asserts, the fact is the Scotgov ARE responsible for protecting Scotland.

    I do find it strange that they did not from day one, assert Scotland’s rights, and start literally demanding Scotland stay in the EU. And before anybody says they did, they simply didn’t. Oh, they complained and said it was disrespectful of Scots etc…over and over again, but at no point did NS actually stand up and say, NO, we will not tolerate this.

    All too freaking nicey, nicey. All too freaking subservient and compliant.

    Regardless of her personal political philosophy on independence or indeed anything else, she has, like many others throughout history, found herself in this position. It is absolutely not of her choosing, but it is here, and it is real. She can either meekly capitulate, or decide that actually she IS Scotland’s democratically elected leader, and circumstances now demand she acts to protect Scotland.

    All the evidence is, she will meekly capitulate. She has no fight in her. None. Westminster can do whatsoever it pleases, whilst NS is First Minister, AND THEY KNOW IT.

    If NS does not want to stand up for Scotland in these dire circumstances of enforced brexit, she should od the right thing and step aside. History will not remember her well, when all is said and done, and brexit has been imposed upon Scotland. I, personally, will never forgive her or the SNP if Scotland is forced out of the EU. They did not fight.

    Still, day after day, they play by Westminster’s nonsense ‘made-up’ ‘rules’. Now is the time to stand up for Scotland. Not next year, not in a while, but NOW.

  224. Mist001 says:

    Are YouTube links not permitted here? I posted a reply to velofello and included a link to Ian Blackfords grand statement and it hasn’t appeared.

  225. Dr Jim says:


    I’m not the kind of Doctor with access to drugs unfortunately
    I’m one of thise sneaky types that works out yer behaviour
    I don’t do it now, or do I

  226. Clydebuilt says:


    Scots voted to remain in the Eu, they do that by regaining their Eu citizenship, (after Brexit) a process described by European leaders as being quick and viable. Scotland would not be starting out as a fresh appiicant, having just been dragged out against it’s will.

  227. Pete Barton says:

    Various folk here dissing NS.

    They,the British national establishment, fear her.

    Mind that fact.

    I’d also say that she and her party machinery work a damn sight harder for their cause than I ever did or could.

    Endgame fast approaching ..

    Colin, did your mum tell you everything she was planning when you were a wain.


    Just cause.. just cause you don’t need to know right now.

    If you did know, you might stop whining.

    And that would not look good on your c.v.

  228. Dr Jim says:

    But the Scottish government isn’t in charge of Scotland, they’re only in charge of delivering services through the devolved powers and remit of the Scottish parliament, if they stray too far outside that remit they can be turfed out by the UK government, so have to be careful as to how far they can twist their knives, I don’t think for one minute the English government haven’t had plenty of discussions as to what pretext they can use to get rid of Holyrood

    The UKs problem has been they hate themselves for devolving too much power so that’s why the Scotland office keeps getting bigger and bigger working towards *replacement day*

    If we don’t go now I believe it’ll all turn ugly for us not much further into the future

  229. Mist001 says:

    The Brexit referendum was a UK wide event. ALL parties knew that before it was held. At the time, Scotland could have made a case that they wanted no part of it because they wished to remain a part of the EU. The reason they couldn’t make that case is because they were quite prepared to leave the EU had the independence referendum been successful in 2014.

    As far as I’m concerned, all this noise about Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will is just bluff and bluster. It’s designed to distract peoples attention away from the SNPs real job, which is to help Scotland gain its independence.

    As many of us are aware, they’re not very good at that job.

    I hope that Ian Blackford is reminded of his words every single day for the rest of his life, when he stood in the house of commons and grandly announced that they would not allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its will.

    The SNP are shameful and shameless and it’s because of their cackhandedness that Scotland IS being dragged out of the EU against its will AND with no hope of independence any time soon. This could all have been nipped in the bud three and a half years ago if they had any gumption about them.

    Is anyone angry yet? I’m absolutely furious.

  230. terence callachan says:

    Robert .Louis

    Did you vote in the eu referendum ?
    If you did

    You will know it was a U.K. referendum

    I am upset that we are leaving the EU but I knew before the referendum that it was a U.K. vote
    Like a general election

    There s nothing SNP or Scottish government can do to stop brexit
    At best we may have beeen afforded special conditions like Northern Ireland
    But that was always a high hope

    Blaming Scottish govt for not stopping brexit is silly
    They couldn’t stop it being part of U.K.

    It’s a lesson learned for those against Scottish independence
    Just like general elections Scotland gets what England votes for
    Not what Scotland votes for

  231. @Mist001,

    did you take out the `https://`

  232. CameronB Brodie says:

    terence callachan
    I’m not blaming the SNP for not stopping Brexit, that wouldn’t have been ethically immoral. I simply don’t think their legal advisory have a clue.

  233. terence callachan says:

    Mist001 …the problem you have being taken seriously is that

    You keep saying you will vote for Scottish independence

    You keep saying you don’t like SNP

    But we know you live in France so you are not eligible to vote in a Scottish independence referendum

    You claimed you were eligible
    You even posted the page showing voter eligibility
    But it was the eligibility to vote in a general election
    Which allows you to vote if you have at some time lived in U.K. during the last 15 years

    Eligibility to vote in a Scottish independence referendum does not allow you to vote if you do not live in Scotland

    So we know that you are a fake
    If you were a Scottish independence supporter you would have known all this

  234. terence callachan says:

    CameronB Brodie …sorry

    I apologise
    That was meant to be a reply to Mist001 …..not to you

  235. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry….that wouldn’t have been ethically moral.

  236. CameronB Brodie says:

    terence callachan
    No probs. Perhaps I am paranoid/ 🙂

  237. terence callachan says:


    You said Scotland was never a member of the EU

    I say to you…don’t be more of an idiot
    Scotland is right now a member of the EU along with wales England Northern Ireland Gibraltar etc

    You can’t be taken out of the EU unless you agree in it

    Perhaps tour glass is half empty ?
    Or your picnic is short of a sandwich

  238. terence callachan says:

    CameronB Brodie …DONT think you are paranoid

    Was it not Robert Louis you were having that discusssion with ?

  239. Mist001 says:

    @ Scot Finlayson

    No, I didn’t but I’ll remember next time. Thanks for the tip.

  240. Stoker says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker wrote on 10 January, 2020 at 4:09 pm:

    “I find that non UK Born Brits strive to be even more British than the indigenous BritNats.”

    My maternal grandfather, ex Military Police, use to always say something very similar. Apart from being a very bitter OO type he would often repeat his mantra that there was “nothing worse than a turncoat because they’ve always got something to prove, regardless of their origins.”

  241. Willie says:

    Too right Dr Jim, @9.52 it is all going to get ugly for us and very soon.

    Westminster under Johnson will do everything to roll back the power of the Scottish Government.

    Take therefore policing and then look at the Killlcreggan peninsula including Glen Douglas and environs. Is it policed by Police Scotland or is it ipso facto policed by the MoD. Well the answer to that is that the MoD very much police the area and not the civilian Police Scotland.

    Or what about the Border Agency who look very much police. Who controls them. Or what about the British Transport Police, they never ever did join up with Police Scotland.

    Or what of the Scottish Office. This for sure will be the alternative mechanism of government in Scotland.

    Yes Dr Jim, you don’t need to look to hard to see what’s coming down the tracks.

  242. CameronB Brodie says:

    terence callachan
    I wasn’t really addressing anyone in particular, simply screaming into the void. 🙂

  243. Angry Weegie says:

    Rentoul is an obvious idiot, but perhaps a taste of what’s to come when Johnson becomes the UK’s dictator.

  244. Mist001 says:

    @ terence callachan

    You and a couple of others come out with this shite all the time, like you’ve never heard of overseas voting, you can participate in referendums and GEs for 15 years. I’ve even given you links to the UK.Gov page explaining it but you seem to find it difficult to absorb the information that you’re freely given. Thsi si the last time I’m going to post this. This is the page about REFERENDUMS. Try and fucking pay attention.

    I voted for independence in 2014. Shortly after that, I got the measure of the SNP and I realised they were charlatans so I allowed my membership to lapse. It WAS the party of Scottish independence when Alex Salmond was leader but after Sturgeon took over, it was quite apparent that it was a different creature altogether which more and more people are beginning to realise now as you can see from many of the comments on this board.

    I voted SNP in this most recent GE simply because there was no alternative and in fact, made a point of telling people to forget tactical voting and if you were in England, vote Labour, if you were in Scotland, vote SNP. That brought out a side of Craig Murray which I didn’t particularly like and that’s why I don’t participate in his forum any longer.

    In short, think whatever the fuck you want. It’s me living my life doing stuff, not you. I know what I do.

  245. Mist001 says:

    @ terence callachan

    Show me and everyone else, the least bit of evidence that you can find which says that Scotland is a member state of the EU.

    Go right ahead, I’ll be here.

    You CANNOT be a member of something of which you were never a member in the first place.

    How old are you? You can’t be that old because I can’t believe that someone has reached adulthood with the lack of nous that you display.

  246. Mist001 says:

    For the record and I really hope someone can show me evidence (not opinion or hearsay) to the contrary, but……….

    England has never been a member of the EU. Wales has never been a member of the EU. NI has never been a member of the EU and Scotland has never been a member of the EU.

    The UK as a whole entity is a member state of the EU, not the individual nations which make up that member state.

    Prove me wrong. Show me evidence to the contrary.

  247. CameronB Brodie says:

    Policy decision under liberal constitutionalism, must be grounded in ethical reason. It is simply not possible to make democratic decisions otherwise. As such, Brexit can not be considered compatible with democratic process, and I’m amazed it got past the Treasury. Mind you, we already know the Treasury has an extremely relaxed attitude concerning due legal process and impartiality.

    Obviously rejecting biology as a fundamental component of the human condition, can not be considered rational.

    Introduction: The Relevance of Rational Decision Theory for Ethics

  248. terence callachan says:

    Mist001 …dickhead

  249. Sarah says:

    Perhaps someone has said this already but, are there grounds for the First Minister to inform the Queen that as Q of Scots she has to defend Scotland therefore she can’t give Royal Assent to the Withdrawal Bill as Scotland voted against it and heavily in favour of remaining in the EU?

  250. boris says:

    In 2014 the Unionists said they loved Scotland and implored Scots to remain in the Union and the European Community. And We did.

    The betrayal of the Unionist vow, to devolve to Scotland full fiscal authority and many other areas of governance was not long coming.

    Only 3 months on from the referendum the Unionists thumbed their noses at Scotland and devolved little of any significance. Rubbing salt into the wounds they even attempted to con Scotland out of finance that rightfully belonged in Holyrood.

    The Unionist paid the price for their devious tactics at the next General Election when they were nearly wiped out in Scotland.

    The Scottish politicians who were returned to Westminster in 2015 genuinely tried to function effectively, but in a repeat of the well-rehearsed abuse meted out to Irish politicians by the Unionists at the turn of the twentieth century they failed to land any effective blows, culminating in a short-lived protest when they walked out of the Commons in frustration.

  251. Stoker says:

    Worth a repeat for anyone who missed it:

    Tinto Chiel wrote on 10 January, 2020 at 11:14 am:

    “Yes, only an independence campaign pursued with conviction and passion will make the critical shift in opinion, I think, but as Schrodinger’s Cat was saying recently, it would be very interesting to see a well-sampled poll on independence conducted by one of the big companies.”

    “You see, I sometimes wonder what’s stopping Bojo agreeing to a Section 30 if we’re still stuck on about 45% after those most godawful Brexit shenanigans and the humiliations heaped on Scotland. After all, the Britnats have the media sewn up, a feeble Electoral Commission, the capacity to tweak voter registration and the postal vote if necessary and the boundless cynicism to organise false flag incidents at opportune moments.”

    “Does he know something we don’t or is that just wishful thinking? So, Boris, do you feel lucky, punk?”

    YIP! There’s a serious lack of credible polls around and we all know why, pro-indy are well over the 50% marker. But don’t get complacent, folks, continue fighting for indy as though we’ve not reached the 50 yet. Can’t stress this enough. They will throw everything at us in their desperation even something as simple as making us think it’s in the bag. It’s not! Yet! 🙂

  252. Dan says:


    I do recall mentioning straight after the UK voted to leave the EU that the Queen should think very carefully about the referendum vote…

  253. Mist001 says:

    @ terence callachan

    So what?

  254. Sarah says:

    @Dan – very droll! But seriously, is there a case for the Queen to be told “do as we voted or you are deposed” as said in the Declaration of Arbroath?

    Or will her advisors only stick to English procedure – yeah, I know the answer to that one.

  255. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Oriol Junqueras has allegedly been ejected from the European parliament. For not signing in. While in jail. Wrongfully imprisoned against EU law.

    EFTA it is for an Indy Scotland then!

  256. CameronB Brodie says:

    Who will benefit from Brexit? Certainly not Scotland.

    Introduction: The logic of social cooperation for mutual advantage – The democratic contract.

  257. Dan says:


    It’s very frustrating when questions like this particular one go unanswered or even unasked.
    I see a basic and direct conflict in the situation, but it seems all this yet again enters into the realm of U-UK Onion layers of sophistry, where only players on a far higher pay scale and of supposed importance, dance on the head of a pin with more yeah but no but yeah but no back and forth which ultimately seems to lead to nothing conclusive or actionable…

    Richt, aff tae my scratcher for a snooze as it’s an early start the morn and heading through to Glasgow for the march.

  258. Phronesis says:

    ‘For a community to thrive and to do so long-term it will also be important to have good leadership. Those in positions of power and authority should care about the well-being of everyone in the community and of the community itself. The leaders should have the skill and understanding that is needed to lead the community well and should be of sufficient character and consistency that they can be relied upon to do what is right. They should be able to inspire others with their vision for the community’s well-being. Good community is thus constituted in part by proficient leadership’

    Let’s leave the pantomime politics of WM behind with its over rated performances by overpaid actors who lack leadership and vision.
    Scotland, the country, should now make its own way in the world building its society based on kindness and fairness, a wealthy country can support all of its citizens and deliver environmental justice. Let’s get Independence done, Scotland can lead the change.

  259. Here’s to the march tomorrow.

    Good luck to all taking part – hope we don;t get too wet!!!!

    All for one.

  260. Liz g says:

    Sarah @ 10.59
    Never mind him he’s high oan chocolate 🙂
    It’s just a guess but I think Nicola could request that the Queen sign or don’t sign something, might only be for Holyrood legislation though…. But as a Privi councillor I don’t know if she could do so publicly.
    I don’t know what’s involved in the oath she takes.
    It would set the cat among the pigeons right enough…. But I’m pretty sure she won’t do it….
    Nothing stopping us demanding it though.
    If it’s going to get messy why not rope Auld Lizzie in it’s her higher only job and she’s been well paid fur it…

  261. Chic McGregor says:

    ‘Rentoul – is that with an ‘ou’ or a ‘double o’? ?’

    and a double ‘t’ with a hyphen. 🙂

  262. Dr Jim says:

    Weather for the march is 10 degrees and light rain till later in the afternoon then heavy from around 3pm

    For Glasgow in January, pretty good, Tshirt mibbees, and a plastic bag for yer napper, quick stop in at Greigs for a sausage roll and yer minted

  263. Dr Jim says:

    News I’ve just heard

    The Labour party in Scotland are set to back Indyref2
    Robert Leopold Labour leader in Scotland said he agreed but he would prefer a multi option ballot including federalism but was prepared to negotiate only to be immediately rebuffed by Nicola Sturgeon by a flat NO to that

  264. Dr Jim says:

    Jackie Baillie and Ian Murray are the only Labour representatives who have publicly said they won’t support a choice on Independence

    That sounds right because both of those are Tories anyway

  265. MaggieC says:

    I don’t know if everyone has seen the very interesting clip from Wednesday on Twitter from Joanna Cherry where she wants the ministers comments on record as she mentions possible future litigation –

    And here is her full speech on video –

    And her speech starts at 12.45 pm on Hansard –

    And the clip from Alan Brown when he intervened when Pete Wishart was giving his speech in the debate –

    To me the best comment in Westminster in any of the brexit debates ever from Alan . A man that tells it like it is in a few words .

  266. MaggieC says:

    Folks don’t faint but the bbc is actually reporting about the AUOB march –

  267. Richard Hunter says:

    The most significant takeaway for me on this is that someone who has an important job at a prestigious newspaper sounds just like a run of the mill internet troll. That’s kind of sad.

  268. Liz g says:

    MaggieC @ 2.04
    That’s their occasional pretence at balance Maggie…. It will most likely drop down the reporting order in the next few hours…
    They will also be hoping the weather affects the turn out and they’ll get an “Indy support dropping off” angle.
    I’d bet ma title deeds that we get less reporting than Hong Kong!! Unless “unusually” there’s any bother!
    Same shit different day… 🙂

  269. Kangaroo says:

    HYFUD @10:30

    Just in from firefighting. So far 10.5mhectares gone. Scotland is 8mhectares. Mind blowing amount. Australia will never recover for many many years.

    Anyway, I have commented on your statements before and no matter what, you just don’t get it, so consumed with your own English Unionist position you can’t seem to make the jump or realise that there are opposing views. Indeed there are differing legal positions, because Scots Law and English Law are separate. This is why the Supreme Court was forced to accept that prorogation was unlawful; it fell foul of Scots Law.
    Read my post again, it makes no reference to English Law, because it is irrelevant. There is either a challenge or there is not, and it will be under Scots Law that it will be fought. Bojo will lose.

  270. Dorothy Devine says:

    Liz , dead right! They’ll be able to report two men and a dug attended the march.

    The way the wind is howlin’ here they may be right – I may have to take on ballast!

  271. Golfnut says:

    @ Sarah.

    Well done Sarah, its taken a long time, even if its only you and perhaps a few others on here to identify just exactly who and what is the weakest link. Liz G is right of course, it is for us to wield that particular weapon, or at least give our Parliament the power to do so. All is not lost though, 2020 is here.

  272. HYUFD says:

    Kangaroo The fact Scots Law is different to English Law does not change the fact both the Westminster and Holyrood Parliaments need to agree to any indyref2 as they agreed to the 2014 independence referendum. Indeed Holyrood was created by Westminster from 1997 to 1999

  273. Golfnut says:

    The Parliament of Scotland was reconvened on the instructions of the People of Scotland by plebiscite. Devolution is the construct of Westminster, the Scottish executive is constrained within the parameters of the Scotland Act, the people of Scotland are not.

  274. CameronB Brodie says:

    HYUFD continues to insist that Scotland needs Westminster’s permission to seek constitutional change. This is based on the cultural assumption that English legal doctrine is supreme and immutable, with regards to constitutional matters. But it is only legal convention that sustains the supremacy of English law in Britain’s constitutional settlement.

    Away and teach yourself some international law, ToryBoy.

    The Right to Self-Determination and International Law

  275. HYUFD says:

    The people of Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014 and 54% for Unionist parties last month

  276. CameronB Brodie says:

    And the people of England appear keen to remove the legal rights of all those living in Scotland (see Brexit). You really are a self-centered and ignorant prick.

  277. CameronB Brodie says:

    I seriously doubt your moral framework and your support of liberal constitutionalism. But then again, you’re a Tory.

    The Principle of Self-Determination in International Law

  278. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tory twats like HYUFD, simply lack a respect for the moral right of individuals to determine their own future. That’s because the philosophical foundations of Conservatism are intensely illiberal and biologically deterministic.

    Legal Aspects of Self-Determination

    Introduction / Definition:

    Self-determination has two aspects, internal and external. Internal self-determination is the right of the people of a state to govern themselves without outside interference. External self-determination is the right of peoples to determine their own political status and to be free of alien domination, including formation of their own independent state. However, independence is not the only possible outcome of an exercise of self-determination….

  279. CameronB Brodie says:

    Westminster’s consent to Brexit, which every electoral ward in Scotland voted against, is clear indication that Westminster does not recognise the legal personality of the Scottish public. It is not possible to make effective claims to legal and political rights, without first being recognised as possessing a legally defensible identity that has force and effect in the real world. As such, contemporary British constitutionalism can not honestly claim to be liberal.

    The Concept of Legal Personality under International Law

  280. Sarah says:

    @Dan, LizG, Golfnut: thanks for the discussion. It seems the moment for me to email a few SNP MPs/MSPs with the suggestion to inform HMaj that Royal Assent to Withdrawal Bill must be withheld!

    I hope you had a great time in Glasgow today – wish I could have gone too.

  281. Bibbit says:

    Ken this?

    My Aunt & Uncle went on a ‘once in a lifetime’ holiday tae New Zealand, via Hong Kong, n’ they came hame, via San Francisco.

    The very next year the buggers hud the audacity tae go oan holiday again, tae France!

    Whit are they playing at?

  282. Golfnut says:

    @ Hyufd.
    57% didn’t vote for Tory;s in 2019, but that’s not how it works is it. 62% didn’t vote for Scotland to Brexit. 80% of the seats in Scotland went to the SNP.

  283. CameronB Brodie says:

    Well done Sarah, kudos for the initiative.

    Btw, Scottish independence would not represent a secession from within a nation. In fact, it would be the termination of a political union between two notionally equal nations. The right-wing and authoritarian nature of Brexit provides reasonable justification for unilateral termination of the of the yoonyawn, IMHO.

    Self-Determination as a Human Right
    The Emergency Exit of Remedial Secession

    The phrase ‘self-determination’ has a strong appeal. In a nutshell, it gives peoples a free choice which allows them to determine their own destiny.7 Traditionally, a distinction has been made between external and internal self-determination. However, for reasons of international
    peace and security the right of self-determination needs to be balanced with the territorial integrity of States. That is why outside the colonial context, the emphasis must be on the internal aspect of self-determination.

    This thesis examines self-determination as a human right, focusing on the central question whether international law allows for a right of external self-determination in the form of unilateral secession when the internal right of self-determination is breached. It is argued that there is a right of unilateral secession based on customary international law, despite the fact that State practice is limited. According to the theory of modern custom, ‘a
    substantive manifestation of “opinio iuris” may compensate for a relative lack of practice’.8

    The author argues that there is strong opinio iuris within the international community in support of a right of
    unilateral secession, albeit that this right is subject to very strict conditions and may only be invoked as a last resort. Peoples are entitled to resort to unilateral secession only when they are persistently excluded from political participation, suffer from gross violations of fundamental human rights and have exhausted every local remedy available to find a peaceful solution to the conflict. In other words, remedial secession may be used as an ‘emergency exit’ only.9

  284. Ian Foulds says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    9 January, 2020 at 9:46 pm
    “What? The Irish method?”



    Subtlety is the watchword along with cussedness – both Scottish traits

  285. CameronB Brodie says:

    I suggested earlier that Brexit is right-wing and authoritarian nature. It would be more accurate to describe it as totalitarian authoritarianism. That’s contemporary British nationalism, that is.

    Sovereignty, Human Rights, and Self-Determination:
    The Meaning of International Law

  286. CameronB Brodie says:

    Totalitarian authoritarianism isn’t simply hyperbole.


  287. Camz says:

    John Rental?

    Another Union Jock for hire.

  288. Mist001 says:
    10 January, 2020 at 10:28 pm
    @ terence callachan
    You and a couple of others come out with this shite all the time, like you’ve never heard of overseas voting, you can participate in referendums and GEs for 15 years. I’ve even given you links to the UK.Gov page explaining it but you seem to find it difficult to absorb the information that you’re freely given. Thsi si the last time I’m going to post this. This is the page about REFERENDUMS. Try and fucking pay attention.
    I voted for independence in 2014.

    “2.9. The main differences between the LG & SP and WP franchises are that the LG & SP franchise does not include former residents of Scotland now living overseas. The LG & SP franchise most closely reflects residency in Scotland and has been chosen for that reason.
    2.10. The following groups of people will therefore be entitled to vote in the referendum:
    •British citizens resident in Scotland;
    •Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland;
    •Republic of Ireland citizens resident in Scotland;
    •citizens of other EU countries resident in Scotland;
    •members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland; and
    •Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the armed forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland”.

    “Scots living overseas or elsewhere in the UK should have been given the right to vote in the independence referendum. But the franchise for the election does not include Scottish citizens overseas or those living in the rest of the UK. In this post Craig Berry and Richard Berry argue that the exclusion of these voters is not justified, and violates established democratic principles.”
    “It is important to note that the Scottish Parliament and UK Parliament both voted to agree the terms of the referendum. The Scottish Government successfully made the proposal to exclude voters outside Scotland from the franchise”.
    “The same can be said of the proposed referendum on UK membership of the European Union, of course. The difference is that nobody has yet suggested stripping UK expatriates of their existing rights to vote in the EU referendum, but that is exactly what is happening in the independence vote.”

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