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Great work, lads

Posted on June 13, 2019 by

Looking forward to that reactivation.

(WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW.)

Don’t all celebrate at once, eh?

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    1. 13 06 19 16:56

      Great work, lads | speymouth

    395 to “Great work, lads”

    1. I love it when a plan comes together

    2. MajorBloodnok says:

      The arse is on the foot now, or something.

    3. Den Cairns says:

      Should be termed Codename Verbal Diarrhoea – from both Camps.

    4. handclapping says:

      This is what happens when you follow the Great Leader

    5. Tom says:

      I’ve stopped worrying as unless there’s some voting happening soon I can do nought about it. Now I just find the whole thing throughly entertaining.

    6. Luigi says:

      Ach yesterday’s news. Operation Kiss Arse has already kicked off. Ye have to hand it to Ruthie. She doesn’t hang about. 🙂

    7. Effijy says:

      Bungling Boris has the Backing of more Tory MPs than
      His closest 2 rivals put together.

      With the double speak clots that are the Scottish Tory Party
      This is equal to a great success in stopping Boris?

      Should they perhaps support Boris and maybe kill off his chances that way?

      We know through the years that whatever the stories say in Scotland, the opposite is true.

      Another option is for multi loser McTernan to back Boris and apply the kiss of death.

    8. Joe says:

      Boris Johnson. What a fkng humiliation.

    9. blackhack says:

      Personally I’m getting conservative brain death…..every piece of news on the TV, Radio, News??Papers is all about the conservatives……Can we just have a referendum on independence and forget all about these shysters ??

    10. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      Butt…butt…I thought Davidson was the ar*e.

      I can see I’m a little behind 🙂 Must keep up.

    11. Luigi says:

      If BJ becomes PM, I will be ordering the finest, bestest deluxe popcorn ever.

    12. twathater says:

      Oh no it appears they dopey tolie voters doon sooth are no listening to the Oracle tRuthless or is this just a cunning stunt ( huv a goat that right ) to divert our attention , I like the thought of operation Arse it encompasses all the contenders

      Meanwhile the great Rory the tory Scoatland’s and the onions saviour has had his erse skelpit

    13. jfngw says:

      Operation Arse is still active, but now it refers to anything that is emitted from Ruth Davidson. Is she now going to be saying ‘Boris, he’s the man for me’, somehow I think so. Not really a leader, just an acolyte to the latest leader. The motto for Tories in Scotland ‘no matter where you lead we will follow’, a craven bunch with no backbone.

    14. Jock Junior says:

      Isn’t that typical? I’m all ready to make my very first comment to Wings, and I’m struck speechless. Damn it.

    15. Luigi says:

      Time for Ruthie to kiss arse and make up, I guess.

      BTW where is SnackBeard? He has been awfy quiet of late.

    16. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Now, now, come on; Colonel Yadaftie is a winner donchaknow.

      The good Colonel will get on either her water buffalo or her tank and will head the bounder off at the pass.

      This is her finally standing-up for Scotland. By her heroic and successful plan to discredit Boris and knock him out of the leadership race, Truthless has, yet again – shown she is a the true champion of Scotland.

      The reality of course is, with BoJo in Number Ten, the chances are we will have Ross Thomson in Dover House; which makes Independence all the more certain.

      Cheers, Ruthie.

    17. auld highlander says:

      It’s really quite entertaining as the assorted sacks of offal try and discredit other sacks of offal.

      yeah, i know it’s awful.

    18. jfngw says:

      Mundell and Davidson now lying prostrate at the feet of Boris confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness. What will the great one decide their penance will be?

    19. benarmine says:

      Apart from the horror of it all though think of the laughs we’re gonna have. And cheers Stuart.

    20. Gary45% says:

      In the vassal state that is the Boris nugget, he thinks he is Winny Churchill, and mark my words will take us to war if given half the chance.
      Under his premiership we will be a “genuine American state,” and will simply be sold off to the highest bidder, so long as the f**kwit can feather his own nest.
      “Caricature coupon Farage” will be exactly the same.
      The UK is F**KED which ever way you look at it.
      Scotland WAKE UP.

    21. Arbroath1320 says:

      so operation Earse “might” be reinstated by the *coughs* “wonderful Tories in Scotland.

      Johnson allegedly “thinking” (does he even DO thinking I wonder?) about proroguing parliament when he is dressed by his juniors in his new clothes.

      Stewart threatening to hold parliament across the road in the Methodist Central Hall.

      Looks like English Civil War II is getting closer by the day peeps.

      Nice to see the British media are STILL stuck firmly up the Colonel’s earse!

      http://archive.is/ZFTM5

    22. auld highlander says:

      If the groik gets to no10 there will be numerous outbreaks of
      foot n mouth.

    23. Dr Jim says:

      Ruth’s new script on its way up to Scotland via Boris’s private gunboat so’s nobody’ll know it’s a secret script

      Shhh

    24. jfngw says:

      When Mundell and Davidson are summoned before ‘The Leader’ about Operation Arse will their excuse be ‘we were only obeying orders’.

      I’m more interested in what they will say after we chose independence, after all they have basically chosen to support another countries decision over their own country (Mundell excuse no doubt will be, he believed Scotland was extinguished so should not be held responsible for his treachery).

    25. Clootie says:

      If Scottish voters don’t switch to Indy after the election of Boris….they never will!

    26. Breeks says:

      Just goes to prove that a vote for a Tory in Croydon is much better than a vote for a Tory in Edinburgh Central, if you want Scottish Independence.

    27. schrodingers cat says:

      the question isnt whether mundel and ruth will turn tail and kiss arse………. of course they will

      the question is whether the scot tory voters will too. some will, no question, but not all, how the numbers eventually fall is yet to be seen

      my money is on the scots tory mps getting wiped out and ruth the “saviour” gettin’ crucified

      bring it on bojo

    28. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bojo will be PM, and there will be an autumn ge so that it eats more time into The Oct31 Brexit deadline and he will have a substantial majority according to the poll the Rev shared on his twitterfeed on Wed. Ways things are going we are likely to be at War with Iran sometime in the forseeable future, probably not until the winter. One thing is for sure it is very unlikely that the Iranians carried out the attacks on the oil tankers.
      I said to a colleage at work in 2003 whilst looking at a large World Map on his Office Wall that Syria would be next in order to make a path for ground forces to Iran. Thanks tothe Russians they have failed to overthrow the Assad Regime, they will now instead try and manufacture a reason to takeout the Iranian Regime. Itsnot going to be pretty.

    29. schrodingers cat says:

      Arbroath1320 says:
      Looks like English Civil War II is getting closer by the day peeps.
      ————

      it wont happen, lost soft brexit tory voters will simply be replaced by new hard brexit tory voters and the english Civil War II wont even register on curtice of james kelly’s opinion polls.

      in reality the real Civil War will be among scottish tory voters, they are about to be ripped in half and and the soft brexiters cast adrift.

      that is why ruth mounted operation arse in the 1st place

    30. galamcennalath says:

      This should prove to Tories (as if proof were needed) that no one in the WM government listens to anyone from Scotland. It doesn’t matter what your political persuasion is, if you are from Scotland then London Tories see you are an irrelevance. You have no influence there whatsoever.

      I’m sure Boris would say, Ruth who?

    31. Brian says:

      Ruth may move to muster support for ‘Operation Turn The Other Cheek’

    32. Gary45% says:

      F**KWITS priorities will include a water pipeline all the way from Jockoland down to the Saf East. wifwaf, wibble wobble.

    33. Dr Jim says:

      This will not go down well with the Tories in Scotland Mr Johnson
      The Tory party in Scotland is there to represent the people of the UK not Scotland

      Wheee! we’re Independent already!!

    34. North chiel says:

      Looks like “ operation arse” has been “ holed” somewhat below the waterline then?

    35. Fraser MacKintosh says:

      I have not so far heard Mundel or Ruth threaten to resign if Boris is PM

    36. Dr Jim says:

      Reports coming in from SNP, membership applications are flooding in already

    37. kapelmeister says:

      Looks like it turned into Operation Arise instead…….as in Arise Prime Minister Johnson.

    38. Cactus says:

      (putting it here too, just because)

      From Wings twitter:

      “And that’s the record. The 2019 Wings fundraiser is now the biggest we’ve ever had. You’re something else, gang.”

      The call has been answered, congrats to everyWingerbuddy 🙂

      The 2019 Wings fundraiser remains OPEN…
      https://donorbox.org/last-call

      Last orders…

    39. Douglas says:

      Coming to a cinema near you: Dr Ruthless or: How I Learned to Stop Caring and Love the Boris!!!

    40. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Apparently there has been a rise in Tory Party membership down south from older white gammon types keen to ensure that BoJo succeeds in his inexorable rise up the greasy pole.

      As for the Scottish Tories, is there even a remnant of their former willingness to stand up for Scottish interests? Especially given the craven surrender of their leadership, the shouty but irresolute Little Corporal and the spineless and clueless Toom Tabard. Their reputations are crashing and burning, but is there anyone with enough foresight and gumption to see them off the premises in a palace revolution?

      Step up Murdo! Cometh the hour, cometh the former reject. =cough= Revenge could be tasty when served this cold…

    41. Cactus says:

      ps, great work, Wingers of 2019

    42. schrodingers cat says:

      Cactus says:

      The 2019 Wings fundraiser remains OPEN…
      https://donorbox.org/last-call

      Last orders…
      —————

      can I second that cactus?

      every pound donated today = 4 wbb2

      we are presently at about 100,000 wbb2, less than half we had in indyref1.

      think about that, if you realise just how important wbb1 was in indyref1, this should spur wos lurkers to donate.

      we are going to need these very very soon. time is running out

    43. Frank Gillougley says:

      A serious question.

      I know some will have asked this before, but I am beginning to fear the worst, given the looming political climate on the horizon.

      Is there really anything to prevent the Scottish Parliament being closed down by Westminster? Or, alternatively have its devolved powers substantially stripped to the extent that it is literally no more than a talking shop?

      Any reassurance would be gratefully received.

    44. Scott says:

      I wish someone would ask Davidson what she thinks about Javid not being invited to the Queens banquet would she slag off May and the Queen of her precious Union.

    45. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Frank Gillougley @ 17:45,

      They can’t formally abolish without a referendum, but they can degrade its functioning from without and within, using the “mitigation” weapon together with the power grab and Henry VIII powers, and aided-and-abetted as per usual by the hapless NorthBritLab, for whom Holyrood has become a serious losing game.

      So in the longer term no assurance whatever, I’m afraid. We have become “too big for our boots” for our “masters” in London. So we have to find properly-sized boots with which to deliver the only message they will understand, or be robbed of even the little we currently possess.

      It’s keep moving on now or perish.

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      North chiel @ 17:25,

      No, just “repurposed”. Instead of a boot being applied, now it’s a tongue…

    47. Gary45% says:

      You never know under F**KWITS leadership spaffing might become an Olympic sporting event, I am sure he will try the commonwealth games committee first. “Empire and all that bollocks” tallyho.
      Expect speaking Latin to become trendy in pubs, “dan the Veteris Canis et Phasianum.” innit.

      Retro in arca Scocie.

    48. Cubby says:

      A big arse is the Scotsman journalist (ha ha) who just prints what he is told by the Britnat parties.

      Paris you are an arse. Proper journalists take risks all over the world to get to the truth. What do they do in Scotland for the Britnat press – tell lies for their political masters. What does that make them – propaganda writers.

    49. Abulhaq says:

      After JM Barrie, “There is indeed no finer sight than a Scotswoman on the make”.
      Davidson, Johnson’s joshing jockess?

    50. jfngw says:

      Looks like it has turned into Operation Rectal Prolapse and Davidson needs to apply some preparation H to heal the wounds between herself and The Leader.

    51. Gary45% says:

      jfngw@6.18
      Nice One.

    52. Giving Goose says:

      It makes you wonder how Ruth’s brief is worded. It’s crystal clear that her role is to keep Scotland subservient at all costs.
      Great to see her job description.
      Bet there is a big reward clause written in.

    53. kapelmeister says:

      Why does Ruth Davidson dislike Boris Johnson so much? They’ve got lots of common ground.

      They’re both pathologically ambitious. Both love zany photocalls. They have very similar power-grabbing propensities. They both hate Scotland.

      Maybe that’s it. They’re just too much alike.

    54. Macart says:

      They do seem to be a bit arse about face. 😎

    55. Old Pete says:

      Paris in the Scotsman never writes anything positive about Independence the SNP or Scotland. The man is a disgrace.
      As regards Boris Johnson, might be a few martyrs in the protracted fight for Independence if he becomes PM. The man thinks he is Winston Churchill,ably supported by ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s like Davidson, Mundell and the rest we could face armed occupation for years to come.

    56. Robert Peffers says:

      @blackhack says: 13 June, 2019 at 4:22 pm@

      ” … Can we just have a referendum on independence and forget all about these shysters ??”

      Yes, Blackhawk, of course we could have an indyref anytime we want to – and we could also lose it any time we don’t want to. Just like the last time we tried it.

      As for me, I don’t believe I’m better informed and know as much of what’s going on as the FM, SG and SNP. So I’ll leave it to them and not to the numpties who believe they know best. Many of whom I believe are, by either design, by or by arrogance and ignorance doing Westminster’s work for them.

    57. Hamish100 says:

      next week…….Mundell and Davidson kiss the feet of Johnston saying they always supported him and his greater Engerland.

      Yes great leader we will impose austerity on the scotch, more foodbanks, we take the fish to Grimsby where it always belongs and stamp them with the UJ flags, no more silly parliaments for the Celts — who needs them –when we have the Mother of All parliaments- Can we get a wee bauble for our trouble they ask….

      My contempt for those three knows no bounds.

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 13 June, 2019 at 4:23 pm:

      ! … Butt…butt…I thought Davidson was the ar*e.
      I can see I’m a little behind ? Must keep up”

      Well, just call me Dave, you might be a little behind but from what I can see Davidson most certainly is has not a little behind.

    59. Marcia says:

      Surely the Tories could have had this election over in one day by using STV. The Tories horror show continues. Davidson does what she is told.

    60. JLT says:

      This woman is a mealy-mouthed, serial liar and nothing more than a one trick pony. She has one agenda and only one agenda – stop Scotland seceding from the UK Union.

      That’s it.

      She and her northern branch of a godawful party have nothing to offer the Scottish people. Nothing at all. She wants nothing more than to see Holyrood shut down and herself shuttled off to Westminster as a major thank you from her colonial overlords.

      However, while Ruth’s eyes are forever glancing southwards thinking of possible glories …maybe she should have a look around her own backyard first. She might just find that things are not so cosy as she thinks.

      For come the next Scottish Elections, she just might find herself unemployed, especially if she continues to back London charlatans that are determined to hand everything over to the Americans. I mean …seriously. …has it even dawned on her that standing side-by-side with these delusional extreme Tory idiots might not be the best thing for your career, especially if your seat is in a country that despises these people. Seeing Scotland dragged out of the EU against its will and is coerced into handing over its own NHS to the Americans …might not be the best thing for your political career while your seat is in Scotland.

      I have a feeling if Scotland is absolutely battered by Brexit in the months to come …she’s gone come the next Scottish elections.

    61. Dorothy Devine says:

      ot but did anyone see that STV news won an award as the best wee story tellers in Scotland?

      I often wonder who votes for these pillocks, sure ain’t open to the public.

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think I might have suggested (t)Ruthless in no supporter of liberal democracy. She’s an opportunistic political thug who’s ‘credability’ is entirely a creation of the media. Scotland would need a lobotomy in order to trust their biological security and future to her form of civic morality. Hence the BBC in Scotland.

      The public conception of morality in John Rawls’ political liberalism

      Abstract

      This paper proposes an interpretation of the conception of morality that remains relatively vague in John Rawls’ political liberalism. It begins with Rawls’ remark that the political conception of justice is also a moral conception, which is puzzling when taking into consideration Rawls’ explicit avoidance of comprehensive moral doctrines in constructing the political conception of justice. In response, this paper proposes the public conception of morality that is structurally justificatory rather than substantively foundationalist.

      This conception is then further developed by addressing two critical questions concerning the necessity of avoiding comprehensive moral foundations and the source of objective prescriptivity in a justificatory view of morality. The former is situated in an analysis and reinterpretation of Alasdair MacIntyre’s reading of Søren Kierkegaard’s Either/Or, and the latter is demonstrated through a comparative study of two leading justificatory theories of morality by Rainer Forst and Thomas Scanlon. Finally, the public conception of morality is fully developed to show that it both defines and defends the political conception of justice.

      Keywords:
      morality, John Rawls, political liberalism, pluralism, justification, Rainer Forst, Thomas Scanlon

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3402/egp.v9.28679

    63. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Gary45% at 6:03 pm.

      You typed,
      “Expect speaking Latin to become trendy in pubs, “dan the Veteris Canis et Phasianum.” innit.

      Retro in arca Scocie.”

      Amawi here mane. (I’m not, actually. I’m taller than average and no’ sae hairy these days.)

      Caesar adsum iam forte. (Don’t know what he had for supper.)

      Congrats to us all for breaking the crowdfunding record!

    64. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 18:48,

      Well, I’m sure we’ll all look forward to having you back again once the SG has made up your mind for you. =grin=

      In the meantime, most of us are happy to debate the issue, among others. After all, that’s precisely what the BTL is for. It keeps the grey cells active and the spirits up while we necessarily have to bide our time.

    65. Gary45% says:

      Brian@7.33
      According to Mr Google.
      Dan the old dog and pheasant.
      Back in your box Scotland.
      I struggle with English never mind Latin.

    66. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 5.56pm

      You mentioned the possibility of a Boris-led Toerag Government possibly invoking “Henry VII powere.”

      I would like to think, if they ever did, that would be the move which would force the Scottish Justiciary, who are well-known for being almost Britnats to a man and woman, to finally wake up, stand-up for the independence of Scots Law, guaranteed you remember by the Treaty of Union and tell the London Government to get lost.

      Then, we are home and dry, with the full backing of the Scottish Legal Establishment. Since Henry VII was never King of Scots, “Henry VII powers” can never be used in Scotland surely.

    67. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Bloody keyboard – Henry VIII, not Henry VII.

    68. Dan says:

      Gary45% says: at 7:40 pm

      According to Mr Google.
      Dan the old dog and pheasant.
      Back in your box Scotland.
      I struggle with English never mind Latin.

      Hey, I ain’t that old!

      Commenting as the holder of a Grade B French O Grade…

      Je suspect the “dan” might mean “in” which would be a word fit, as “dans” means “in” in La Lingo de la Frenchio.

      Welsh Sion might be able to assist further.

    69. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      Wow, what kind of politician has to announce to the world that she is so professional that (whisper, whisper) she has even been known to enter negotiations with the First Minister. OMG, imagine that!

      She is a product of the Public Relations men. Watch carefully her facial expressions in the above video. It’s all an act. She’s a fraud and would struggle to survive in a position of true responsibility where her every move was minutely examined and questioned.

      Ye cannae fool us, Ms Davidson. Remember we’re Scots, and we can see a fraud a mile off.

      As our grannies used to say, “She’s fair away wi’ hersel’, but she’ll come doon to earth wi’ an awfy clatter.”

    70. galamcennalath says:

      For almost 40 years, for the vast majority of Scots, the Tories have been seen as the party of the Devil incarnate! Nasty, abusive, elitist, social vandals. Ripping off ordinary folks to make an elite richer.

      I suspect the actual word Tory wasn’t know widely across Europe. Now, everyone knows the word, and what it really stands for.

      IMO this has considerable bearing on the independence cause. It will be absolutely clear to the majority of Europeans now why Scotland wants out of its union with England. Our future is a normal European country, and nothing like the loony right display being put on in London.

      I hope come IndyRef2 this results in the backing of our fellow Europeans against the ‘mid Atlantic’ madhouse we will be trying to detach from.

    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for Scotland’s judiciary, who need to prove through their “actions”, that they are rational liberals who are supportive of multicultural pluralism and the rule-of-law (see the British constitution). It is more than a little alarming they have not already done so, frankly.

      VALUE-PLURALIST MULTICULTURALISM:
      BETWEEN ECONOMIC RATIONALISM AND CULTURAL RELATIVISM

      ‘Multiculturalism’ means different things to different people. There is agreement on its general definition: public recognition of cultural differences and their effects within a society. But when it comes to explaining what purpose is properly served by multiculturalism – and consequently the precise form that multicultural policy should take – opinions are divided.

      There is on the one hand a more conservative view that multiculturalism should properly amount to no more than a pragmatic vehicle for integrating new migrants into the cultural mainstream (Galligan and Roberts 2004: ch. 4). Within this conservative position there are those, especially representing business interests, who see the principal purpose of immigration, and therefore of multiculturalism, as the promotion of economic growth. On this view, cultural diversity enhances the skilled labour pool, multiplies contacts for overseas trade, and expands domestic markets.1

      On the other hand, some people conceive of multiculturalism in more radical terms, as a vehicle for the rejection of dominant norms that pretend to universality but that are in reality parochially Western (Tully 1995; Parekh 2000). This radical position is, in turn, condemned by its detractors as political correctness run riot, based on a romanticising of indigenous and non-Western cultures, and implying a foolish abandonment of the standards of liberal democracy and even reason itself (Sandall 2001).

      I propose a rationale for multiculturalism that is located between these conservative and radical poles. The view I shall defend is intended to avoid both the complacent acceptance of current norms (in particular, narrowly economic conceptions of well-being) and the radical relativising of all standards. The ethical basis of my argument is the concept of ‘value pluralism’. This is the idea, associated in particular with the work of Isaiah Berlin, that there are at least some generic universal values, but that these (and other more local values) are irreducibly multiple, frequently conflicting, and sometimes ‘incommensurable’ with one another.

      Pluralism in the Berlinian sense thus contains elements of moral universality and diversity. It also seems, immediately, to intersect with multiculturalism. If there are many distinct human goods, then one would expect that different combinations of these would constitute many genuinely valuable ways of life that are worthy of public recognition.

      However, I shall also argue that the kind of multiculturalism that is supported by Berlinian pluralism is distinctly ‘moderate’. By this I mean to identify a form of multiculturalism that is more than a mere instrument of integration, but less than a demand for cultural sovereignty. In particular, I shall argue that pluralist multiculturalism is subject to liberal principles, rather than a radical view in which liberal values represent only one legitimate cultural perspective on a moral par with others.

      Further, those liberal principles include a strong public commitment to the ideal of individual autonomy that will usually override toleration of individual and group practices. I thus take issue with much of the existing literature in which pluralists have touched on multiculturalism. A dominant current within that literature has identified value pluralism with cultural pluralism in a strong sense, thus suggesting a link between pluralism and unrestricted multiculturalism – unrestricted, that is, by liberalism. This tendency, I shall argue, rests on a misunderstanding of pluralism and its political implications.

      My discussion is divided into three sections. First, I review the concept of value pluralism as it is found, in particular, in the work of Berlin. Second, I argue that Berlinian pluralism suggests a form of multiculturalism that is not unrestricted but subject to liberal principles. These principles include a public commitment to the ideal of individual autonomy, in contrast with alternative, toleration-based models of liberal multiculturalism. Third, I list some qualifications to the view I defend.

      http://berlin.wolf.ox.ac.uk/lists/onib/crowder/VPMULTDUN.doc

    72. HandandShrimp says:

      Johnson will be a shockingly bad PM (as he was FS). The only joy will be watching Davidson eat crow pie and pretend to be able to work with the man.

      Mundell will likely get the boot despite a rear guard action by the self same Fluffy one to play down his worries about Boris.

    73. Joe says:

      @Galamcennalath

      Unfortunately (or fortunately, not sure which) its likely Europe wont be the same place politically or economically for long by the time Scotland becomes independent. Assuming that happens.

      Intransigent successive national governments and the EU commission disconnect from real people, slower economies being damaged by inflexibility with the Euro and the migrant crisis have done their damage.

      Germany holds it all together economically.

      Tick tock.

    74. Gary says:

      That went well then, he got enough MP votes to win outright were it a FPTP vote and enough, assuming he survives the next round to get him in the final two.

      Once in the final two, unless he actually murders someone, or withdraws, he’ll be our next PM – God help us all…

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Would it please you to see the EU fail?

    76. call me dave says:

      Scotland is the place for rockets and here’s another. 🙂

      From WoS twitter… yea not!

      https://archive.fo/3IOBA

    77. stu mac says:

      @Lenny Hartley says:
      13 June, 2019 at 4:56 pm

      I said to a colleage at work in 2003 whilst looking at a large World Map on his Office Wall that Syria would be next in order to make a path for ground forces to Iran. Thanks to the Russians they have failed to overthrow the Assad Regime, they will now instead try and manufacture a reason to takeout the Iranian Regime.

      Also, thanks to the yanks themselves and their inability to see who the real enemy is, they will be unable to use Iraq as a path for their forces either. The Shia majority would rise against them if they did – they see the Iranian Shias as their brothers. If Sadam Hussein was still in power it would be no problem for them (mind you they backed him in an invasion of Iran and that failed too – though with a great cost to 100,000s of Iranians and Iraquis).

    78. America blames Iran for attack on oil tanker near Strait of Hormuz,

      what happens next ?

      the French,UK and American oil companies keeping the middle east destabilized while they pillage and plunder,

      they have f@cked over Iraq,Libya,Afghanistan,Yemin,Sudan and Syria,
      and control Saudi,Israel,Kuwait,

      Scotland is oil rich,

      if they can`t infiltrate and control they destroy.

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      And another for Scotland’s ambivalent judiciary, who appear not to value “new natural law”.

      Neil Gorsuch, Natural Law, and the Limits of Judicial Power

      When President Donald Trump announced his first nominee to the Supreme Court, many observers quickly noted that Neil Gorsuch wrote his doctoral thesis under the supervision of the Oxford legal philosopher John Finnis. Some immediately asked whether Gorsuch’s approach to constitutional interpretation might be shaped by the “New Natural Law Theory” (NNLT) pioneered by Finnis and others.

      The columnist George Will, for instance, expressed the hope that Gorsuch might “effect a philosophic correction” to what Will regards as a lacuna in Justice Antonin Scalia’s theory of originalism. In his 1997 book A Matter of Interpretation: Federal Courts and the Law, Scalia wrote, “there is no such philosophizing in our Constitution, which, unlike the Declaration of Independence and the Declaration of the Rights of Man, is a practical and pragmatic charter of government.”

      Will takes a different view. Natural rights, he claimed, may be “independent of the Constitution” insofar as they “are grounded in [human] nature.” But natural rights are also, Will stated, what the Constitution exists to protect. Will concluded by suggesting that the fact the Gorsuch studied under the author of Natural Law and Natural Rights (1980)—the book which some believe single-handedly revitalized natural law theory in jurisprudence and philosophy more generally—might foreshadow more attention to natural rights in Supreme Court deliberations.

      No one can predict with certainty Gorsuch’s take on any question on which he might be called to deliberate if he receives Senate confirmation. But before too much ink is spilled speculating on whether natural law in general or NNLT in particular will influence Gorsuch’s thought, it is worth reflecting on two important prior questions. How does natural law theory view constitutionalism? And what does this mean for the exercise of judicial power?

      Power Maps or Normative Ends?

      Answering such questions requires clarification of the purpose of constitutions. Constitutions are usually regarded as (1) the written documents that outline the powers of different political institutions as well as (2) the legal rules, customs, and conventions that define the system and workings of government.

      But in his 1998 book An Introduction to Constitutional Law (published in the same series as Natural Law and Natural Rights), Eric Barendt notes that constitutions are more than a type of power map. For if this were the sole purpose of constitutions, it would be possible for a tyrannical regime to comply formally with constitutional law while carrying out fundamentally unjust policies….

      https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/03/18766/

    80. Capella says:

      Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
      Those whom God wishes to destroy, he first makes mad.

      One for using down the pub.

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      And some Constitutional Legal Theory that Scotland’s judges might want to consider.

      Rethinking the boundaries of democratic secession: Liberalism, nationalism, and the right of minorities to self-determination

      Abstract

      Whereas secession has been dealt with extensively in international law, in connection with the creation and recognition of states, it has received little attention as a possible tool in the constitutional protection of minority rights. This paper examines the more frequent uses and invocations of secession and assesses their potential adaptability as means of promoting minority group rights.

      It argues that international law and the international community have never provided coherent guidance for responding to nationalistic minority aspirations or, specifically, to secessionist challenges. At the same time, constitutional models regarding the management of national diversity have also failed to reconcile liberal democracy and nationalism.

      From a substantive point of view, there is probably no solution to such difficulties. Neither available model of “constitutional coexistence” nor of secession is likely, ultimately, to be satisfactory. Nonetheless, the adoption of an explicit constitutional procedural approach to secession provides the best means of averting the worst dangers and excesses.

      Issue Section:
      A. Rights at the intersection of international, transnational, and private legal regimes

      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/6/3-4/553/654432?searchresult=1

    82. Heart of Galloway says:

      Our Auld Alliance partners are not best pleased at the prospect of a BoJo premiership, according to Le Monde.
      https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/06/12/boris-johnson-a-la-tete-du-royaume-uni-non-merci_5475124_3232.html
      It has always been Europe or bust for Scotland, ever since every part of our country voted to remain.
      The EU knows and acknowledges that desire but has had to keep quiet because the UK is still a member state.
      Not for much longer.
      Just as warm words and a the promise of a warm welcome from our fellow EU countries will be Scotland’s ace cards in IndyRef 2, so they will drive a stake into the heart of Bitter Together’s *ahem* campaign.
      I look forward to PM Johnson’s (*shudder) response to the prospect of Scotland becoming the EU’s 28th member state.
      It will be a wonderful thing to behold – and in all probability an Eton mess of veiled threats and crude blandishments.
      Jpohnson may be a clown – but the forces behind the buffoon will stoop to any tactic to ‘bind Scotland fast’*copyright speaker of the House of Commons 1707* in their ‘precious union’.
      Slowly, slowly the stars are aligning for Scotland.
      And with Europe at our backs we will win.

    83. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Heart of Galloway.

      I think your comment may allude to this.

      “Hey Tuttie Taiti”.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WulAWn_N_O0

    84. Cactus says:

      Cheers for yer seconding schrodingers cat at 5:42pm, aye aye

      ps, the Saj is live on LBC at present

      For your entertainment and involvement tonight frae 10pm
      https://indylive.radio/

      It’s quiz night, yipee!

    85. Bob Mack says:

      Mundell has seen the light. He can work with Boris.

      All those quotes from him about Boris being a fool were inaccurate apparently. Fake news you know.

      If ever any man lacked class,principle or backbone ,it is Mundy. An invertebrate for sure.

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, the conduct of the British state during the first indyref, was pretty feckin’ “militant”. Time for a bit more Constitutional Legal Theory?

      Militant democracy, legal pluralism, and the paradox of self-determination

      Abstract

      The legality of militant democracy – Can a constitutional democracy act legally in an antidemocratic manner to combat threats to its existence? – is far from clear. The legality of legal pluralism – the extent to which international law authorizes political agendas that seek to implement various forms of autonomy – is also unclear.

      The elusive legality of these developments creates conditions for the abuse of power both by states defending democracy and by religious, cultural, and national communities seeking a measure of independence. Marked by a shared normative commitment to the paradox of self-determination, the relationship between legal pluralism and militant democracy provides insight into the legality of both developments in ways that might be overlooked by viewing each in isolation.

      This is revealed dramatically by the recent decision of the European Court of Human Rights in Refah Partisi v. Turkey, in which the Court upheld the banning of a political party that was advocating a form of legal pluralism that would introduce elements of Islamic law into the Turkish legal order. Refah establishes a legal site in which contestations over the constitutional boundaries of legal pluralism and militant democracy will take place in the future.

      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/4/3/488/646381?searchresult=1

    87. Macart says:

      @Capella 9.01

      Ayup! That other shoe should drop fairly soon.

      Well. More of a pit boot. 😎

    88. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Irony =

      Boris Johnson proroguing parliament while Rory Stewart holds parliament across the road in the Methodist Central Hall, Westminster.

      A building which I noticed on SKY News tonight has 2 large fasces carved either side of the front door!

      A fasces is an actual, bone fide symbol of Fascism.

      Fascism, the radical right-wing, authoritarian ultra-nationalism

      Which we now see rising in England via the ERG, FaRadge (no typo) and Yaxley-Lennon unquestioned (an in many cases cheer-led by the BBC & Non-Dom Media Barons of the broadcast and print media).

    89. HandandShrimp says:

      The complete lack of substance, the inability to stand for anything, exhibited by Davidson and Mundell is straight from In The Thick Of It. Everything is spin and craven personal ambition. Funny but unedifying.

    90. jfngw says:

      Empty vessels make the most noise, never been more apt than with Ruth Davidson.

      She has been the Tory voice in Scotland for eight years and can anybody remember any actual positive contribution she has made to Scotland in this period, I’ve tried but nothing comes to mind. It’s just been one long self period of self promotion and disappearing lines in the sand, a lot of bluster then falls into line with head office.

    91. Dan says:

      Word on da street iz that engineers in the energy sector are developing the technology to harness the seemingly perpetual power emitted by the flip-flopping of Buffalo Gal.

    92. galamcennalath says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hey Tuttie Taiti

      Appears to be the French Navy and Commandos Marine in particular who like our ancient tune. Here’s another recent one. Very solemn national homage to two fallen servicemen. Macron present.

      Stirring when the pipes begin.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEsDynBjxII

    93. kapelmeister says:

      The Tories clearly getting ready to dismantle devo, no matter who wins the leadership.

      Scotland’s choice is between governing ourselves or 100 million miles of hard road

    94. jfngw says:

      O/T

      Rumours are they are going to remake ‘I’m Alright Jack’ but update it, latest version suggestion is ‘I’m Alright Jacking Off’. In stead of playing cards they are having a mutual pleasuring session, that’s the modern workplace for you apparently, if you disagree you are a bigot!

    95. Dr Jim says:

      A huge amount of decent English folk expressing their desire to come to Scotland to get away from England while at the same time a huge amount of abusive Rangers fans in Scotland expressing their desire that Scotland be like England

      The solution seems obvious, we could do it like a prisoner exchange, they get the head cases they want, we get the nice folk we want, I know where they go on Saturdays, we could just throw a net over them

    96. Welsh Sion says:

      dan @ 7.53 pm

      I concur. ‘dans’ in Frogspeak is definitely ‘in + specific object’ as opposed to ‘en’ which is ‘in’ which is less definite (excluding countries, places etc.)

      Could s.o. provide feedback on Adam’s performance (and that of the audience/other members of the panel/la Brucette) on tonight’s QT, please? I don’t have the stomach to watch.

      Thanks beaucouply.

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      There are many tell-tales signs that (t)Ruthless is not serious about democratic pluralism and Scotland’s best interests, if you look closely enough. Firstly, she’s a Tory. Secondly, she’s a Tory…..

      The Constitution, Political Culture, and Civic Virtue

      ….So what does it mean for the ruler to truly be a servant? What does it mean for someone holding political office and exercising political power to rule well? Well, at the most basic level, abstractly, it means making and executing decisions for the sake of the common good, not for the sake of any individual interest that the ruler happens to have, not for the sake of the rulers group or clan or tribe or family or class, but for the common good. Such decisions will necessarily be compatible with the requirements of justice, and at the same time, they will embody justice.

      If we understand the concept of the common good properly, and I am going to say a word about that in a moment, then we will see that no decision that violates a requirement of justice, any requirement of justice, even the smallest, can truly be for the common good. And no decision that genuinely upholds and serves the common good will fail to advance the cause of justice. I will explain that in a moment….

      https://wheatley.byu.edu/constitution-political-culture-civic-virtue/

      Over to you Scotland’s judiciary, prove you’re rational liberals and not reactionary Tories.

    98. Calum McKay says:

      Ms Davidson has a record of flip flopping, putting her foot in it, backing the wrong horse, insulting people, advocating pernicious policies, blaming others for her failures and being economical with the truth!

      When caught out Davidson resorts to bluster, shouting, insults and dismissive arm waving!

      If it were not for her friends in the press and bbc supporting her career, she’d be nowhere!

      Davidson and Johnson are a perfect match and will bring the curtain down on this toxic union!

    99. manandboy says:

      THE FIX IS IN THEN

      First, the new big lie. Boris is a changed man, and now realises the true magnitude of the job which awaits.

      Two. The Tories don’t believe in, and therefore don’t actually practise democracy. As with the Theresa May ‘elevation’, the plan now is to rinse and repeat for Boris. All the rest is just hoodwinking the gullible masses – in England, which controls the democratic deficit in the so-called United Kingdom.

      Three. Boris is on a very short leash, reined in by his ‘minders’, to minimise press or public access and therefore to rule out, or at least minimise, the possibility of Boris saying something self-destructive of which he is eminently capable.

      Four. The Establishment are recovering their composure and have come up with ‘the Johnson plan’, as a means of restoring order in the UK, the mini-Empire – as was before June 23, 2016, and the EU referendum.

      Five. The British Establishment is trying desperately to squeeze the Brexit genie back into the Empire bottle, but such an effort is doomed to fail, as we all should know by now.

      Six. The Brexit avalanche continues unabated downhill.

      Seven. Don’t bet against the tide of History.

    100. Phronesis says:

      The ethical and enlightened ideas of a gifted economist talking up the entrepreneurial state. A framework for a newly independent Scotland with its massive economic potential;

      ‘…substitutes “managed democracy” for more democratic forms of rule based on shared power’…A more positive theory of public value requires beginning with a notion of the public good not as a correction to a failure, but as an objective in itself; an objective that can only come about if linked to a process through which value is created…Thinkers such as Ricardo, Mill and even Adam Smith recognised that unfettered markets were often inefficient, prone to capture by special interests and could have negative distributional outcomes without ongoing intervention by the state. In particular, there was a recognition between productive profits and economic rents that represented unearned income deriving from arbitrary control over resources…’

      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/public-purpose/files/public_value_final_30_may_2019_web.pdf

      Versus the non-ideas of a boorish, bungling ex Bullingdon Club boy ‘I am committed to supporting the iconic Scottish whisky industry’, telling lies and playing everyone for laughs whilst talking up himself;

      ‘the Johnsonian way. The lies, the performative phrases, the layers of persona—they accrete, one on top of another, flecked here and there with Latin, until everyone has forgotten what the big deal was…The jolly feel around Johnson enables him to air sinister ideas and dodge the consequences…His self-belief is matched only by his capacity for self-sabotage. Until this moment, Johnson’s life and career have been a kind of monument to wishful thinking—of ridiculous expectations shockingly fulfilled. Brexit is much the same. “I’ve got nothing,” Johnson said. Britain is about to find out what nothing means’

      https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/06/24/the-empty-promise-of-boris-johnson

      The consequences for those who live and toil in the real world will be very stark for much longer than a generation, Scotland must grasp the thistle and get out of this toxic, failing British state.

      “Either they’re negligent in understanding what leaving on World Trade Organisation terms means, or they just don’t care…If the Tory Party choose a leader prepared to walk us off a Brexit cliff edge, our country will live with the economic consequences of that for a generation.”

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/gmb-union-report-on-no-deal-brexit-1-6095033

      The Confederation of British Industry is warning that a no deal Brexit could cause Scotland’s food and drink industry lose £14 billion

      https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2019/01/24/UK-feeling-disastrous-impact-of-Brexit

    101. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 20:28,

      More deliberate confusion between the EU and the Eurozone. (D’ye think we don’t notice, or if you say it loud and often enough à la Goebbels it will begin to work ?)

      Your stock of Leaver lies, distortions and straw men is getting worn out from excessive reuse. Give it (and us) a rest.

      If you were a genuine supporter of independence, you would
      save your persistent minority dissidence until such time as we here in Scotland are able to decide properly for ourselves, free of all outside interference. (Including from where you live.)

      Harping on and on and on with your splitterist monomania in a Scottish context only serves the Union. Which places you firmly in the “knaves or fools” category.

      Personally, I favour the former, but it’s a close call.

    102. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi galamcennalath at 10:16 pm.

      You typed,

      “Appears to be the French Navy and Commandos Marine in particular who like our ancient tune. Here’s another recent one. Very solemn national homage to two fallen servicemen. Macron present.

      Stirring when the pipes begin.”

      Orri and I had a wee blether about this a week or so ago. If you go to this link, then click on the second link, you’ll get more background info.

      (Just scroll down, looking for me or Orri.)

      It’s the comment that starts with “Hi yesindyref2” (who is now, apparently banned from this blog).

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-74/#comment-2463291

    103. jfngw says:

      David Mundell receives key to executive toilet, he’s made it in the remake ‘Are You Being Servile’.

      https://twitter.com/BBCandrewkerr/status/1139195266756689920

    104. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Colin McKay did a good job on Jo Swinson just minutes ago.

    105. Heart of Galloway says:

      BDT@9.29
      Aye Brian, fair mak’s the hert sing. Ecosse! En avant!

    106. geeo says:

      I see Chuka Umunna has joined the libdems now.

      More parties than 1983!!

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the full-English Brexit and Britain’s constitutional crises. Surely it is not beyond the wit of humanity to avoid such a debilitating mess? Well, has anyone ever wondered what happens if you mix Constitutional Legal Theory with International Public Law? Perhaps Scotland’s judiciary might want to examine the source of their ambivalence to natural justice? Perhaps they’d rather not?

      The relationship between international law and
      national law in the case of Kosovo:
      A constitutional perspective

      This paper addresses the relationship between international law and national law in the case of Kosovo, using its constitutional law as a backdrop to the main question of the paper. After introducing the theoretical background to the field in question, the paper argues that the Constitution of Kosovo provides for a monist model of relationship between international law and national law, while recognizing the direct applicability and incorporation of treaties in the domestic legal order, and, to a certain extent, also of customary international law.

      The paper goes on to explain the relationship in question through reviewing a large portion of literature in the field with a view to enabling the reader to understand the specific provisions of the Constitution of Kosovo on the relationship concerned. The paper also attempts to explain the penetration of international human rights law in the national legal order, including an account of the broad constitutionalization of international human rights instruments that is apparent in the Kosovo Constitution.

      Finally, the paper concludes that the Constitution of Kosovo builds a ‘happy’ relationship between international law and national law, thus following a modern approach toward the relationship between the two.

      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article-pdf/9/1/274/2678576/mor020.pdf

    108. Willie says:

      Quite frankly nothing that the Ruth Davidson says or does is surprising.

      The Colonel is a political prostitute of the highest order. She’d drop the political drawers for Boris in an instant if he became PM. A veritable Monica Lewinsky of politics.

      But there we have it. Whoever gains leadership of the Conservative party our wee bag will follow on as the serving handmaiden. No wonder the Colonel’s Conservative
      party only got 10% in the last European Elections.

      But hey ho, disregard the analogies, what does any of it matter to a Bobbing Joh to a political slut like Davidson.

    109. manandboy says:

      Brexit – impossible to classify, politically and economically

      ‘Strong and Stable’ – almost the definition of a complete loss of judgement, courtesy of the British Prime Minister, leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party. To be succeeded shortly, most likely, by someone who, by comparison, makes Theresa May appear like a clone of King Solomon, who was renowned for his peerless wisdom.

      But then, when a train goes completely off the rails and heads for a nearby cliff, what does it matter that the driver is called Johnson.

    110. schrodingers cat says:

      yesindyref2” (who is now, apparently banned from this blog).

      eh????

    111. Liz g says:

      Briandoonthetoon @ 9.29
      The tune fair makes the heart sing.
      A beautiful tune right enough!!!
      But as the clips show…
      We can’t have that as our National Anthem.
      The French are burying their war dead to it,to win medals in sport to it, where the French compete would be in such bad taste…..
      Such is Life…..
      My pitch would be for “Auld Lang Syne” and for three reasons.

      Firstly – The Writer is indisputably “A son of Scotland” , and a famous one at that ( he even has his own day/night).

      Secondly – Nae Wars,Bloody Tombs or mention of The English.
      Our past relationship with England should not make it into our National Anthem, ( and by default Robert de Bruce dose speak to a Scottish/English past) but rather, it should be about the face Scotland presents to the world today!

      Thirdly – International Recognition.
      Most people can only recognise one or two National Anthems!
      Most people can only sing one or two lines of them as well!
      Auld Lang Syne,is sung once a year the World over and it’s generally sung as a sign of friendship.
      The World knows this song,it is arguably more famous than G.S.T.Q, which it is as least as old as, ( and it has to be said written by a one hit wonder) and speaks about friendship not crushing anybody!!

      So….
      It’s demonstrably OURs…
      And,
      It could be said that, we have given it to the world to sing and keep safe during “The Union Years”….
      Now we are bringing it home where it always belonged….
      ?????

    112. Artyhetty says:

      Just getting a chance to catch up now. Today’s comments on this are just class. I read a few right down to about 4.30pm, and thanks, the Scottish wit is alive and well, brilliant. It keeps us all sane, at least some of the time! 🙂

      On a serious note dreadful stuff going down re Iraq and the US attempt to blame them for oil ships being bombed. Scary indeed.

    113. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 12.08
      I’m thinking the same as you… EH?
      First I’ve heard!
      I was actually worried because Yesindyref2 had had a health scare a wee while back.
      I was actually hoping that the indecent with the oil tankers would bring him back out from lurking so I’d know for sure he was ok….!!
      Any Wingers know him????

    114. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 22:48,
      schrodingers cat @ 00:08,
      Liz g @ 00:25,

      yesindyref2 banned? Seriously? Shurely shome mishtake. (How would we know, though?)

      I hope he’s just taking a break and nothing more. I don’t know him personally, alas, so I can’t help. Maybe someone should e-mail Stu?

    115. Willie says:

      Mr Stewart told Sky News that if Mr Johnson prorogued parliament, “every other MP will sit across the road in Methodist Central Hall and we will hold our own session of parliament and we will bring him down”.

      He said: “You don’t ever lock the doors on parliament in this country. Somebody who attempted to subvert our constitution, our liberties, our parliament, and who dared to stand as prime minister and claim they could lock the doors on parliament would not deserve to be prime minister.
      “This parliament would meet, whether he locked the doors or not, and we would bring him down.”

      Strong and stable and here we have a contender to be the next Prime Minister declaring that he and other MPs will form an alternative Parliament.

      Time I think for the guns to come out with troops on the street. Proroguing Parliament was the prelude to the English Civil War.
      Mr Stewart told Sky News that if Mr Johnson prorogued parliament, “every other MP will sit across the road in Methodist Central Hall and we will hold our own session of parliament and we will bring him down”.
      He said: “You don’t ever lock the doors on parliament in this country. Somebody who attempted to subvert our constitution, our liberties, our parliament, and who dared to stand as prime minister and claim they could lock the doors on parliament would not deserve to be prime minister.
      “This parliament would meet, whether he locked the doors or not, and we would bring him down.”

    116. Willie says:

      And aside of having to get the troops on the street to maintain control that will be a forced Brexit by Johnson and his Junta, can you imagine the carnage as riven GB tries to fight Europe.

      Maybe Trump will put in American forces to support the Johnson Junta because he’s there already having been invited in to support the Junta.

      But we in Scotland must not be complacent. The Johnson Junta want to smash Scotland entirely for the recalcitrant colony that it is. In Northern Ireland the UK now has more undercover special forces operating that did so during the Troubles. They’ll do the same in a Scotland and no one should be in any doubt as to the extent military intelligence is operating here.

      The media control, the dark money, the surveillance, and the preparation for a martial clampdown and the suspension of the Scottish Parliament. It’s all here.

      But Sturgeon and the SG know that and that is why our government takes the steady stable steps that it does whilst staying close to Europe. The UK will burn but we must not burn with it.

    117. Flower of Scotland says:

      Wow, next Week, guess who is on the Alex Salmond show. Can’t wait!

    118. Lenny Hartley says:

      Liz g, the cat et all, was thinking tonight that had not seen anything from yesindyref2 for a while. We have been in contact via email before so will email now and see what the script is.

    119. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 1.05
      Let’s give it some time…
      It’s late and we don’t know if other Wingers know him yet!
      Let’s give it till…
      Mibbi Saturday tea time, after the march!!
      The Rev will Mibbi have read through the posts and would have said some by then.
      If he didn’t and if nobody else has I’ll email the Rev to check!!
      If everyone is ok with that??

    120. Liz g says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 1.33
      Oh thank you Lenny please let us know as soon as you hear.. 🙂

    121. Petra says:

      When Johnston becomes PM, Davidson and Mundell’s ”Operation Ar*e” will do a Tory flip-flop and become known as Johnston’s ”Operation boot up the Ar*e”.

      Meanwhile we’ll all be laughing our asses off in Scotland. Johnston as PM, and better still with groper Thomson as SoS for Scotland, will be an absolute gift for us.

      So come on folks. Back Johnston for PM. What a guy. Boris, Boris, Boris we, the Scots, love you Boris. Don’t believe Ruth the Mooth Boris when she tells you that you scunner the Scots and that you’ll end the Union. She’s a wee liar (like yourself) Boris. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey, ha, ha.

      ……………………………….

      WGD:- ‘What democracy is all about.’

      … ”Ruth Davidson preaches about democracy while espousing deeply undemocratic positions. She preaches about the dangers of division while her own party has proven to be the most dangerously divisive force in the UK. She rails against the replacement of patriotism by nationalism while representing the most narrowly and viciously nationalist party that has ever been in government in Britain. Her own party is a minority government, and is hell bent on forcing the most extreme form of Brexit imaginable on the UK. Yet have you heard her say that the British government can’t foist its Brexit upon us all until it achieves an electoral majority to do so? No. Neither have I.”…

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/06/13/what-democracy-is-all-about/

    122. Liz g says:

      Willie @ 1.17 & 1.21
      Calm the fuck doon Willie…
      We don’t do violence,the British State is better at it than us.
      They have had years of practice!!
      We are not going down that road,there’s been enough Scottish blood spilt…. Not one fucking drop more…
      We are better than that and we’ll find our way…
      Do not ye doubt it 🙂

    123. Petra says:

      What a load of old tommyrot …. Lies. Read the tweets to get a semblance of the truth.

      https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1139068440252227584?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 01:35,

      Thanks, Liz. I’m good with that.

    125. Petra says:

      Boris Johnston brags constantly about his Mayor of London record.

      One of the tweets:-

      Some of Boris’ projects when Mayor:
      Garden Bridge £54m
      Routemaster buses £321.6m
      Cable cars £21m
      Water cannons £320,000
      Hire bikes £225m
      Estuary Airport £5.2m
      Olympic Stadium conversion £305.5m
      Orbit Statue £6.1m

      Total : over £940m .. all disasters!

      Cut police, sold fire stations.

      ………………………………..

    126. Willie says:

      Liz@1.48

      As I said Liz Nicola Sturgeon and the SG are going down the steady and stable route. They know how dangerous and vicious the British state is, and that approach is good.

      However, we must be mindful of how the British state operates. They are past masters at subversion and they certainly know how to do violence. And they will do it at the drop of a hat.

      The stability of the Scots Parliament is something that stands against the chaos of Westminster as it descends into a civil war.

      A disunited minority Conservstive government threatening to prorogue Parliament so that a Johnson Junta or other can crash the UK out of Europe is about as dramatic as you can get. No wonder they plan for troops on the street and martial control.

      It is a serious as that. The response yesterday by the Prime Minister and Nigel Farage to the clown Jo Brand’s joke about battery acid milkshakes shows just how concerned they are about violence. Of course the clown Brand should never have said this, even as a joke, but it has rung a bell with the politico’s – as their reactions show. The politico’s know the story and in truth fear it, at least for their own safety.

      The UK is tearing itself apart, politically and economically.. Austerity descends on the many whilst the elites prosper. Big corporation pillage at will. Unfairness and state victimisation such as the Hostile Environment are very much in play.

      Good lord, even the poor D Day veterans trailed out likevperforming monkeys in support of the glorious dead are now going to have to pay to watch a TV.

      England is rotten, there is no community, it is bitterly divided, and it is time we got out peacefully so that we do not burn with them.

      That is all I was trying to say Liz.

    127. Liz g says:

      Willie @ 3.44
      Wullie..
      Aye fine…. Just say it a wee bit mair peacefully…
      We aw know how nasty Westminster can be!!!
      Let’s be as cool as Nicola, and the Yes’rs!!
      Now is the time tae bring Scotland the gither!!
      Don’t Ye think??
      We canny play their violence game,they are so good at it,that’s no our script… They canny handel anything else they don’t know how …. We must keep it “civil”, and legal…. Aye??

    128. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I was doing somethng else, so forgot to switch-off “This Week” when it came on. Then I noticed David Starkey was doing a piece, so, on the basis of let’s hear what shite he is spouting – I watched his, actually quite funny take on the Tory Leadership Stakes.

      Starkey said Rory the Tory had been a “Guards officer,” only to be corrected by Oor Andra: apparently Rory’s military service was five months as an officer in The Black Watch.

      So I suppose that makes him what George Macdonald Fraser termed: “A Rupert – an Anglo-Scots officer whom the Jocks will follow anywhere, usually out of a morbid sense of dread as to which catastrophe he was about to lead them into.”

      x-x-x-x-x-x

      On another topic, I note some posters are mentioning the potential for violence on the streets of Scotland under a Johnston Junta.

      Worth bearing in mind, perhaps the most-successful escape from British Rule was via Gandhi’s peaceful Power of Non-Violence approach in India. OK, thanks to the Muslim campaign for a separate Muslim state (Pakistan), it all fell apart after the Raj left, but, Non-Violence worked, because the British, spoiling for a fight, didn’t know how to handle him.

      And, if Johnston, perhaps with Toom Tabard Thompson as SoS for Scotland does shut-down Holyrood, they could always do what Rory the Tory is suggesting for Westminster – meet elsewhere.

      Would the Church of Scotland make the Assembly Rooms available again?

      And if it came to that, what would Small Dick and Wee Willie and their troops do? Join the majority, or stand outside calling them names alongside Colonel Yadaftie, Mad Murdo and the Orangemen?

    129. Mac says:

      This is a complete FU. There is NO appropriate Tory candidate for PM. And Corbyn is on his way out.

      There is sheer pandemonium at Westminster. There is panic in both major parties..

      MPs are finally coming around to realise that the UK is (as many people have been saying) is close to National Emergency, civil unrest and complete meltdown.

      The Drug Donkey Derby of the Tory Party is a complete farce. It’s not a search for talent or a search for a statesman that can steer the UK out of a hole. It’s the proverbial rearrangement of the deckchairs as the ship goes down… Old men trying to retain control of a disaster.

      Cameron, you steered the UK into a friggin Iceberg… you took a risk that wasn’t yours to take.

      The only way forward now is back… a General Election AND a Referendum under control of some type of citizens assembly. (We cannot even trust these Donkeys to run an Emergency Coalition Government ..)

      The last 12 months direction has pointed towards this catastrophe and we have not changed direction. Stiff upper lip, eh what? The BTL comments on most media has expanded exponentially and people are screaming the same warning for months.

      How many times do ordinary people need to point out the obvious? The UK is in crisis, bordering on National Emergency.

      The UK and Westminster will not emerge from this catastrophe undamaged. (culturally, politically, economically, constitutionally and most of all psychologically)

      Scotland, man the fucking lifeboats!

    130. ahundredthidiot says:

      OT

      I would love to see the National run any Iran ‘news’ next to archive Iraq news. These warmongering halfwits are so dim they are using the same playbook (press already got their drum kits out to start their beating). Hunt already handed US a blank cheque by stating that starting point is to believe the US. The US! – what is he, 10 years old. Only a complete mug would believe anything the US says (by US of course I mean, the real Government behind the Government). Good American people are as frustrated as we are – The ‘government’ will soon be testing Trump and they failed last time with Syria (those ‘launches’ landed in an agreed disused airfield)

      Also noted the ramping up of recruitment campaigns since the glorious D day celebrations. Pathetic.

    131. Breeks says:


      Socrates MacSporran says:
      14 June, 2019 at 5:46 am

      …And, if Johnston, perhaps with Toom Tabard Thompson as SoS for Scotland does shut-down Holyrood, they could always do what Rory the Tory is suggesting for Westminster – meet elsewhere.

      I remember back during the Scottish Parliament Building debacle, it was said that the Scottish Parliament could meet in a field if it chose to.

      Holyrood is the coming together of two conflicting phenomena; a delegation / devolution of power and integrity given by Westminster, and arguably, this devolution could theoretically be cut off at source.

      However, that overlooks the second phenomenon, whereby it was the Democratic will of the sovereign people of Scotland that delivered the mandate to have a Scottish Parliament, and it is the democratic choice of the sovereign people of Scotland which determines who gets to sit in that parliament. In these respects, the Scottish Parliament represents a covenant between the Scottish people and their chosen / delegated leadership, and the Parliament of Westminster has absolutely no Constitutional jurisdiction to interfere.

      It is therefore at least credible to suppose that Westminster might choose to remove such powers and authorities from a Holyrood which it can remove, but as a Constitutionally Sovereign people, we can do to Westminster the self same thing that Westminster would do to Holyrood, and essentially remove the franchise which allows it to operate. Scotland’s popular sovereignty trumps the UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, and Westminster has no power over Scotland which doesn’t have its origins in authorities first delegated by Scotland.

      There is another complexity to add to this, because it is arguable that this arrangement is an issue of Constitutional Law, not merely ephemeral popular opinion, and as such, it is not contingent upon any equally ephemeral democratic mandate in a referendum. The Union wasn’t created via democracy but legal treaty agreed under franchise. So logically, it can be ended by the same protocols whereby it was created.

      That means in my opinion, if Scotland elects an SNP Government, that Government can terminate the Treaty of Union without any need for further referendum. However, given the modern principles of democracy, it would help greatly with Scotland’s international standing if such a decision to break up the Union did have a majority in a referendum, OR a ratification Plebiscite after the event.

      Where Scotland is strong and unassailable is having the sovereignty of our people undisputed.

      Where we are weak however, is having that sovereignty codified into a constitution which addresses all the ambiguities and conundrums which confound us. In simple terms, the sovereign will of over 5 million people is a clumsy and unwieldy juggernaut to steer and control, but somehow, we need to find a way to do it.

      Normal countries delegate power to their government every day all around the world, and those governments are by and large left to get on with it, and the “principle” of democracy is technically satisfied because the Government’s mandate to govern expires and needs the will of the people to authorise a new parliamentary session.

      In crude terms, what Scotland has in Westminster is the delegation of power from the people to create a Government, but there is no expiry date on the franchise which requires public support to renew the mandate. It’s like a democracy without the opportunity for electoral renewal… which yes, is a contradiction in terms and irreconcilable paradox. It’s a Union of consent stripped of the necessity and opportunity to renew that consent.

    132. Breeks says:

      …. It’s a Union of consent stripped of the necessity and opportunity to renew that consent….

      But I meant to say, the Union will run forever without our agreement to renew it, but that doesn’t interfere in any way with a singular initiative to end it.

    133. Breeks says:

      Sorry, bit scattergun this morning…

      Another point I meant to make was that I think Scotland could demonstrate the power of sovereignty without actually ending the Union by unilateral resolution to renew Scotland’s consent be part of the Union.

      We flick the switch. Rather than orchestrating an initiative to leave the Union, we adopt a different but thoroughly democratic protocol, whereby we leave by default unless we choose to remain after the mandate expires.

      We elect a complete government every 4 or 5 years. Why not elect to stay or leave the UK Union by the same principle?

      Just imagine the ructions at Westminster… having to be extra nice to Scotland and make a progressive case for the Union every 4-5 years, or see the Union collapse. Oh the fun we would have…

    134. David P says:

      Breeks…

      How about Scotland votes – decisively – to leave the UK.

      Simple. Straightforward.
      Unambiguous. And permanent.

      Anything else is tinkering round the edges.

    135. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks.

      3 very good posts.

      Our Sovereignty until now has been fairly successfully hidden from view by the usual westminster/establishment smoke and mirrors. Cramped and confined using pseudo convention and compliant political London based parties operating in Scotland.
      Teaching Scots that their Sovereignty trumps any dictat from Westminster is the key. WGD wrote in one of his blogs that Scotland wasn’t poor, it was impoverished. The same could be said for our Sovereignty, we aren’t powerless, we have just forgotten how to wield that power.

    136. Nana says:

      This is from the beginning of this week’s @CommonsEUexit Select Committee. The message is clear, a no deal Brexit would devastate UK manufacturing.
      video
      https://twitter.com/mpc_1968/status/1139267417228685312

      Northern Ireland’s DUP not seeking ‘earth-shattering’ changes to Brexit deal
      http://archive.fo/Ov72Z

      Esther McVey claimed £8,750 in expenses for personal photographer
      http://archive.fo/CEmWz

      EU says reneging on Brexit bill would damage UK economy
      http://archive.fo/UKkD3

    137. Breeks says:

      Correct DavidP.

      But what if we lose, or the SNP never gets around to winning? Trick question, sorry. Even if we lose, we can’t lose, we’d just be back at ground 0 again.

      But yes, you’re right. Mostly. But didn’t the Catalans vote decisively to leave Spain? Apparently a vote needs more than a majority. It’s not awareness that Sovereignty depends upon, it’s formal recognition. Situation as of right now is we don’t actually have that. We should have it, I know, but technically we don’t. If we’re not recognised as sovereign, then what is it that will make our vote be recognised as sovereign? And if it’s not sovereign, then it’s an aspirational opinion poll.

      Yes, democracy in the modern world can take command and establish sovereignty, but at what risk are creating a new ersatz or Sevco Scotland, rather than resurrecting the Auld Ancient Kingdom of Scotland? Do we want a new Sovereignty that’s one day old? Or is it all that Scotland has ever been from it’s dawn in prehistory through all the drama and tribulations of a thousand years raw history? I want the same Scotland that declared itself in the Declaration of Arbroath. Independence for me is an act of liberation, not creation.

      The other counter argument to what I said is that Scotland cannot arbitrarily change the terms of the Union Treaty with any greater success than England might… not that they pay much heed of that.

      I’m not advocating these things as recommendations, but I would very much like to encourage a much wider and more sophisticated understanding of what our Sovereignty is and what it means. For some of us, that means thinking the unthinkable. For others, it opens up a world of imagination they never knew existed.

      When you think sovereign, suddenly the Treaty of Union seems like a pompous and irksome piece of paper that wouldn’t pass the legitimate provenance test to warrant a home in a museum. Maybe pinned to the wall in Madame Tussaud’s Waxworks beside all the other illusions and curiosities.

      The Declaration of Arbroath is a priceless artefact which creates and defines a Nation. The Treaty of Union is an historical curio which creates nothing but a paper manacle. The one is not the equal of the other.

    138. Nana says:

      https://www.checkout.ie/retail/tesco-warns-october-brexit-much-problematic-march-76517

      Meet Duncan Buchanan, Policy Director of the Road Haulage Association (RHA). The RHA is the UK industry organisation for freight transport. He tweets among other things about the UK’s preparedness for No-Deal. Spoiler: It’s bad.
      https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1138855272628269059

      https://peterabell.blog/2019/06/13/the-power-of-doubt/

      Last link for now, a reminder to sign this
      https://www.yes.scot/

    139. Abulhaq says:

      Waiting for someone in the SNP with the cheek to say to the Tories get on with it, just elect Johnson.
      UK safe in his hands. Hee! Hee!
      Hunt, interviewed R4, “America is our closest ally, we must trust them”, OK…Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran?

    140. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 13 June, 2019 at 8:28 pm:

      ” … Unfortunately (or fortunately, not sure which) its likely Europe wont be the same place politically or economically for long by the time Scotland becomes independent. Assuming that happens.”

      You English/British exceptionalists do blether a right load of lies and twaddle. In the first place there is no chance that Scotland will not end the United Kingdom.

      ” … Intransigent successive national governments and the EU commission disconnect from real people, slower economies being damaged by inflexibility with the Euro and the migrant crisis have done their damage.”

      First of all no EU member state can be forced to adopt the Euro. EU states do so when they, not the EU Government, decide to do so. Not even Greece and it was not the EU, or was it the EC, that caused the problems that Greece brought upon itself and no one forced Greece to continue use of the Euro, Greece decided to do so all by itself because they knew they brought the problems upon themselves.

      So, when Scotland becomes the member state, or remains the legacy member state when the UK ends, then the EU has no way of forcing them to adopt the Euro. Then, as an EU member state, Scotland will have a veto to use as Scotland sees fit. The EU has no laws, rules or other mechanisms, to force member states to do anything because the EU is both democratic and it works by consensus.

      The truth is that a third of EU member states have never adopted the Euro and one such member state is the United Kingdom and another is Sweden, both have been EU member states since the EU began and both have never adopted the Euro.

      As to Germany holding it all together, I see no signs of Germany going to stop doing so.

      Oh! And by the way there isn’t, and never has been, a queue of states wanting to join the EU. If a state awaits joining it waits because it does not comply with the conditions required of EU member states to be EU Member states.

      Unlike the United Kingdom there isn’t 50% of EU member states wanting out of the EU and, if leaving is done in an orderly manner, no EU or EC rules prevent a member state from leaving the EU. The reason the UK has trouble doing so is because they are attempting to obtain special concessions and are threatening not to pay the dues they agreed to pay.

      In the United Kingdom the Westminster Government not only forces both United Kingdom member kingdoms to use the pound but they are attempting to prevent 50% of the member kingdoms from ending the two kingdom United Kingdom and skimming off the wealth of one member state to prop up the other member kingdom while attempting to stop one of the two member kingdoms from ending the union.

    141. Lenny Hartley says:

      Hi folks, have received a response from yesindy2ref , he is ok, but does appear to have been banned from commenting, possibily due to ciritism of the rev’s twitter. he is ok with that as he has other things to get on with.

    142. Sinky says:

      Davidson’s hypocrisy being exposed in The National.

      https://www.thenational.scot/politics/17705426.davidson-in-hypocrisy-row-over-indyref2-party-mandate/

      The Yoons in my local supermarket are hiding The National on a daily basis now which shows how much it gets to them.

      If even 10% of Wings readers were to subscribe or buy The national regularly it would transform its effectiveness.

    143. Craig Murray says:

      Once Boris is PM, I suggest we just wander up to the cross outside St Giles, read out a Declaration of Independence, and nobody will argue.

    144. Ken500 says:

      Rev twitter is too trans. Given up reading it. Read about Alex Salmond show. Now mainstream. Good job. A break through. Next. Although Rev does not need it. Wings is the best Indy website. Great fund raiser.

      Yesindyref2 has been posting on Newsquest.

      Everyone should complain and he might be back again. Heedy too.

    145. Ken500 says:

      Johnstone would not last long. Until October? The Tories will stagger on until a GE. Then toast.

      What a mess. A total shambles.

    146. Ken500 says:

      Catalonia. Population 7.5Million. Children 1million. Electorate 5.5. 2.2Million Yes. Many did not vote. One million do not get a vote. EU citizens? Or not registered.

    147. jfngw says:

      Watched a bit of This Week as I spotted David Starkey and he is always good for a laugh, along with Portillo’s predictions.

      He was in full rant mode, not enough of the right class now in Westminster, he really likes the rulers & serf society. I thought he was a historian but he had to be corrected on his facts, but he has such hubris that he just ignored these errors, he was still correct in his mind.

      I was watching Liz Kendall’s face during his diatribe and it looked fizzing, I thought she might explode but didn’t, disappointing.

    148. TheItalianJob says:

      @Craig Murray

      Nice one. Saw your two programmes on Alex Salmond show a few weeks back. Your discussions and knowledge on all subjects I found enthralling.

      Good to hear that your blog is going well.

    149. Marcia says:

      I have seen on the internet calls for the Scottish Government to pay for the over-75’s TV licence for those pensioners residing in Scotland. No, they cannot mitigate all the bad decisions made in London. The calls for the SG to do this should be resisted. It is time for the real pain of Westminster rule to be felt.

    150. Dr Jim says:

      @Willie

      Don’t worry Willie there will be no troops marching into Scotland

      We’ve got drones, they’re terrified of them, It’s our weapon of mass confusion that strikes terror into their hearts

    151. cassandra says:

      Everyone who claims here to canvass for the SNP, try explaining the new self-ID policy to doubtful voters.

      Tell them that women will no longer have a claim to any space on the basis of their sex. Tell them sex used to be a protected status in law but is no longer any such thing in Scotland.

      Tell them any man can identify as a women and enter their spaces, be it a toilet where a group of school girls have stopped off on a school trip, a changing room in a shop or even at a leisure centre. Tell them if they object, they are the bigot. Tell them men’s feelings are paramount now and their right to gratification in their chosen identity will now be law. Tell them there are other things far more important and they are missing the point of ‘Independence’.

      Tell them this is personally endorsed by Nicola Sturgeon who does not feel threatened so why should they. Really, try it, if you can honestly explain any of that positively, well done.

      Then try to tell them the Claim of Right says THEY are ‘sovereign’…if they haven’t shut the door in your face by then.

    152. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/13/eu-says-reneging-on-brexit-bill-would-damage-uk-economy

      The view from Europe, and guess what? It’s not what you’ll see, hear or read from the British Nationalist media.

    153. Frank Gillougley says:

      Hmmm. Sitting here with twenty quid to my name, this is what I’m looking at currently – An Orwellian Johnson Junta.

      A ‘rules-based’ gerrymandered sham democracy, as we have known it up until now, I believe will soon be over and we will shortly enter into the world of full-on English Trump mob politics and previously unelectable mouthpieces will be given even more unwarranted continued prominence through political deals with the Junta (e.g. Farage and Davidson etc.)

      Fresh from a no-deal xenophobic English civil war and victory over Europe, they will not stop there. The next course of action (as it is their only political philosophy – action) will be against the enemy within and that special measures will soon be taken to shore up and consolidate what territories England controls i.e. Scotland. These measures (the dissolution of a devolved parliament by whatever means, whether overtly, or fiscally) will be justified politically, via a complicit media, as being necessary to preserve the integrity of the UK, or Great Britain, or whatever you want to call it – the USS UK? Anyone can imagine the ensuing propaganda. It will be only academic that Scotland may return 59 SNP MPs to Westminster in the next GE. It won’t make any difference. That arcane Victorian parlour game is over.

      Sovereignties, treaties, legally-binding documents, Section 30s, the rule of law, the legal establishment will all be set aside by the Junta via their appointed place men, all in the name of the preservation of the United Kingdom/ Great Britain. Direct rule will be reinstated as everyone knows that ‘power devolved is power retained’.

      Of course, some may think this is an alarmingly bleak prognosis and that governance of Scotland as outlined will inevitably be unsustainable.

      The policy of ‘lets wait and see the fall-out from Brexit’ before we decide our course, surely has to be over and the SNP has to mobilise onto a far more pro-active stance (which I am sure it has fully considered its tactical options available). I am 100% positive that the Scottish electorate will realise that their future will lie in Europe.

      However, I suspect that the political situation will get much worse, before we begin to see real progress on Scotland regaining its independence in Europe.

      Ho hum.

      Be afraid. Be very afraid, as they say.

      As if you need reminding, watch from 8.20 onwards

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAxA-9D4X3o

    154. auld highlander says:

      f.g. at 10.25

      why does the word imbecile come to mind every time I see that creature.

    155. Lenny Hartley says:

      Craigs angle on Oil Tanker Attack, he has got it spot on again.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

    156. Terry Callachan says:

      To Alexicon your post 8.24 thurs 13th

      I hope you don’t mind me copying it here it’s just so fantastic seeing Mundell squirm when confronted with evidence that he too said he couldn’t work with the Boris should the Boris ever be PM

      https://www.facebook.com/Independence4Scotland/videos/2736563643052446/

      Davidson and Mundell how did we ever end up with two despicable two faced sods like them , oh yes , there are people in Scotland who actually vote for them
      Unbelievable !

    157. Legerwood says:

      From the Herald online

      “UK Government to get ‘cabinet room’ in Edinburgh”

      “”The opening of a new UK Government hub in Edinburgh has moved a step closer.

      Property developers Artisan Real Estate formally hand over the keys of the building to Scottish Secretary David Mundell.””

      Rest of article is behind a paywall

      Below the line comments are worth a read though.

    158. Ian Brotherhood says:

      WOS Twitter is full of folk expressing serious worry over the whole ‘self-ID’ issue and SG’s handling of it.

      And no wonder.

      Many of us have avoided the topic. Dunno about anyone else but I find it impossibly confusing and frustrating but I’ve (selfishly, aye) made the excuse that we all have the right not to be forced to have an opinion on every fuckin thing.

      But this is becoming an existentital threat to the indy movement – if NS and the SNP hierarchy insist on pushing this agenda in the face of such widespread and heartfelt opposition, we can kiss indy2 goodbye.

      Vague assurances that ‘Nicola has a plan’ simply won’t wash. Aye, we can surely trust her and her team on the strategic/tactical side of day-to-day political machinations, but this is different. Just when we are so close – so fuckin close! – to achieving the aim we’ve spent years (in some case, decades) pursuing, there’s a real danger of it all being wrecked. And for what?

      Can’t remember feeling this scunnered since the morning after indy1.

      🙁

    159. cassandra says:

      And if anyone thinks this is a niche interest not worthy of the bubble that is BTL on WoS, ask the SNP how many members have left ALREADY because of this?

      I dare you, all you dinosaurs who think they know the mood of the electorate and what is really important. Ask them, it is hundreds, if not thousands and there will be many more when this is fully publicised.

      This is an impending crisis of enormous proportions for the SNP, both financially and in terms of votes for the Holyrood elections and if you cannot see this, then more fool you.

      I have tried to communicate to the SNP hierarchy my concern over this. I have received bland platitudes about equality for all in return. My male SNP MP is apparently terrified to speak out of turn. Nicola Sturgeon has been both dismissive and patronising in her replies, when she eventually replied that is.

      Wake up before it is too late, this will cost votes and goodwill.

      One would almost believe Nicola Sturgeon is deliberately scuppering her chances because she wants to move to the UN, destroying the hard work Alex Salmond fought for.

    160. Terry Callachan says:

      To Cassandra your post at 1013 hrs

      Hello, the subject you raise is a very simple one if you are lucky enough to be born into the world with the body and mind of a man or body and mind of a woman woman and are happy with that creation.

      however if you have the body of a man but feel as if you are a woman
      or you have the body of a woman and feel as if you are a man
      or at some point in your life you feel that you are not what society says you are
      then you will be finding life to be very difficult
      the world does not make life so simple once you are considered different
      and you will not have done anything wrong to deserve your difficult life.

      It is our responsibility to help and protect all people in difficulty

      Some of what you say is incorrect too especially the part about women’s space , the discussion we had about men’s space many many years ago showed that in reality there is no such thing as women’s space or men’s space we share the world and all its spaces and can make sure that risks are not increased for women when for example there are toilet areas at work and in hospitals etc that are shared by men and women it works effectively all over the world and can do so here in UK in fact it already does there are many places where cubicles are shared as toilets and changing rooms in perfect safety, hospitals, swimming pools, aircraft and so on, yes of course safety has to be of paramount importance and as yet there is no evidence to show that paramount importance has not been given.

    161. Juteman says:

      @Ian brotherhood
      I’ve been avoiding the issue as well.
      The MSM are being careful not to criticise the SNP yet. They want this to pass so they can then crucify the SNP with it when it is law.
      I could write the headlines now, ” SNP PLAN TO HAVE NAKED MEN IN SAME CUBICLE AS YOUR YOUNG DAUGHTERS!”.

    162. winifred mccartney says:

      I have to agree that this selfID legislation will seriously damage the rights of women and damage the SNP if it goes ahead. The rights of any person cannot take away the rights of another group of people otherwise it really is every decreasing circles.

    163. Cubby says:

      I have been watching Chernobyl – the new series by HBO. This series should be a mandatory watch for all those advocates of nuclear power and nuclear weapons. Horrific. Terrifying.

    164. Robin says:

      I forget which arsehole it is (Duncan Hothersall maybe) that makes the wild predictions where the opoposite always comes true but if only we can get him to back Boris then its sure to make him lose.
      The only problem is we are still left with one of the other cretinous bastards to deal with!

    165. Dan says:

      @Ian Brotherhood at 10:57 am

      I’ve always been an open-minded, live and let live, treat others as you’d want treated yourself, etc kinda person. However the pushing of this Self ID stuff is ridiculous when there are so many other more important things to deal with.

      In my experience of talking to folk when I’m out and about they are pretty much aligned with my own views.
      Try explaining this Self ID stuff on the doors to the majority of our small c conservative society and see what reaction you get.

      Sport has a huge interest for many. Yesterday when out mountain biking I was speaking to a female athlete who was training and she is disgusted at biological males potentially being allowed to competing against her because they “feel” like a woman.
      I try to keep myself fit so know just how hard people have to train to be competitive in their endevours in their same sex classes.
      If we are at a point where biology and science can now be ignored, then that opens a whole Pandora’s Box.

      It just the same old situation. A lot of people that strive for power and influence are exactly the personality types that shouldn’t have it, as they’re often ego and vanity driven and unable to consider the views and concerns of others.

      So aye, scunnered is a fine word to describe how I feel about all this too.

    166. Terry Callachan says:

      To Ian Brother hood and Cassandra

      The gender recognition act 2004 is actually an Act of parliament from Westminster
      It’s not a Holyrood Act
      It’s not an SNP Act

      The Scottish government in trying to implement the gender recognition act 2004 found that it was not treating certain groups of people fairly
      so it carried out a consultation over a 15 months period beginning 2017 and concluding November 2018
      and it looked at what other countries around the world were doing in this respect.

      Here is a fact sheet from the Scottish parliament showing where things are now
      Proposals are not finalised
      https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00545198.pdf

      Get the facts right
      scaremongering on an important issue is a poor show

      SNP and Scottish government cannot reject the gender recognition act 2004 it’s a UK Westminster government Act of parliament
      SNP and Scottish government are consulting experts across the world to find best workable practices , that’s a good thing

      Knocking on doors during an SNP campaign for Scottish independence and spreading falsehoods about gender recognition really is the wrong thing to do

      The final report with recommendations for improving the 2004 gender recognition act has not even been published

      Get a grip of yourself
      You may have strong views about it but at least show some dignity in waiting until the final proposals are known

    167. Dr Jim says:

      The Internet is chock full of people announcing they’re leaving or have left the SNP yet the membership increased in the last 3 days

      Any political party looks at numbers, they have people who do that, and if those numbers demonstrate a shift in something or a trend one way or another, political parties generally move with it, pressure groups can sometimes turn political events with the right kind of strategies but attempting to bully political parties or figures within those parties has never and will never work no matter how much or how loud they shout because at the end of the day the party being threatened counts numbers and if they add up they carry on regardless because numbers don’t lie

      People do

    168. manandboy says:

      From Graham A Fordyce in The Herald comments on
      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17706060.mark-smith-nicola-sturgeon-could-you-please-stop-talking-about-scottish-values-there-is-no-such-thing/?ref=ar

      While it would be impossible to codify a list of values upon which we could all agree are somehow uniquely Scottish, it might be easier to state what our values are not:

      1. Deliberately creating division in society in order to promote one section and sacrifice another. That also applies to the countries of the UK as much as their citizens.
      2. Tolerating the concept and use of Foodbanks.
      3. Promoting the idea abroad that we are somehow better than the rest of the planet.
      4. Sustaining and rewarding the rich and powerful simply because they are rich and powerful.
      5. Disparaging the idea that caring for each other is secondary to caring only for oneself.
      6. Sustaining a democracy which is fundamentally broken and corrupt.
      7. Electing a Prime Minister who equates his own ambition with that of his or her country.

      If I had more time, I could go on and I dare say others could add to the list.
      If you’re looking for a positive and simple definition of Scottish values, perhaps it could be summarised in one word: Freedom. It is that desire which is driving us towards it.

    169. Terry Callachan says:

      Knowing why the gender recognition act 2004 is now being discussed is important.

      Reviewing and if necessary improving its content and practices is very important

      Here is more information about where we are NOW and have been since 2004 when the Act came into force

      “A trans man or woman can change their name and whether they are shown as a man or a woman for almost all their records without having applied to the Gender Recognition Panel under the 2004 Act.
      For example, they can change their UK passport, driving licence, academic records, and medical records such as their community health index number without having been legally recognised in their acquired gender.
      To change a birth certificate issued in the UK to be consistent with their other documents, they will need to apply for recognition under the 2004 Act.”
      Legal recognition may also affect rights to pensions and benefits.

      So when you criticise the Scottish government for reviewing the 2004 Act just be aware of how things are right now and have been since the gender recognition act came into being in 2004 as a UK Westminster government act of parliament

      What the SNP and the Scottish government are doing is looking at ways of improving the 2004 Act

    170. Dr Jim says:

      @manandboy 11:43am

      Christ on a bike!! every country in the world expresses their values in the way they’d like to have them but here we go again Scotland’s the only country NOT *allowed* to have values now except for the ones we’re told to have by another bloody country’s loyal supporters who enjoy the controlling of and removal of culture language and values of every country they’ve slaughtered their way through and imposed their own bloody non culture upon

      It’s stuff like this that makes me more and more adamant and I’ve had a bloody long life of being adamant

      That’s adamant not Adam Ant

    171. SOG says:

      Terry C. – since you’re well informed, is the date, June 25th, correct? I’ve seen nothing, yet I’d assume supporters would be briefed in advance. I have female friends & family to feel concern about.

    172. Terry Callachan says:

      Some more facts about the gender recognition Act 2004
      Which as I have said is a UK Westminster government act of parliament
      It’s not an SNP or Scottish government act

      The Scottish government is reviewing it
      They have carried out an extensive consultation
      The proposals for improving the 2004 Act have NOT yet been published

      Let’s wait and see what they propose

      Let’s make sure we understand how things are at present so that once the proposed amendments are published we truly understand them

      Here are some facts

      https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00547252.pdf

    173. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The Internet is chock full of people announcing they’re leaving or have left the SNP yet the membership increased in the last 3 days”

      Says who?

    174. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Terry Callachan –

      I refuse to get drawn into an argument with you over the GRA or any aspect of the contentious debates it has thrown up and I reject your accusation of ‘scaremongering’.

      The point I made was simple enough – the SG handling of this is causing consternation among SNP/indy supporters. That is an easily observable fact:

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    175. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Knocking on doors during an SNP campaign for Scottish independence and spreading falsehoods about gender recognition really is the wrong thing to do

      The final report with recommendations for improving the 2004 gender recognition act has not even been published

      Get a grip of yourself
      You may have strong views about it but at least show some dignity in waiting until the final proposals are known”

      Please stop lying, Terry. The final proposals are known, as is the government’s response to the skewed consultation.

      https://www.gov.scot/publications/review-gender-recognition-act-2004-analysis-responses-public-consultation-exercise-report/pages/3/

    176. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “is the date, June 25th, correct? I’ve seen nothing, yet I’d assume supporters would be briefed in advance. I have female friends & family to feel concern about.”

      Take it from me, the date is correct.

    177. Dr Jim says:

      Keith Brown said when Boris won the first round the membership just went up

    178. Terry Callachan says:

      Here is a Scottish government circular which shows you the kind of groups that responded to the gender recognition 2004 Act review.

      https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00547252.pdf

      As you will see the biggest group to respond in Scotland was religious , no surprise there

      Groups who responded to the Scottish governments consultation but did not want their response published were as follows, why would you want your response kept secret ?
      I’d like to know for example what the royal bank of Scotland response was because I bank with them but theirs is on the secret list

      We also received responses from the organisations listed below who did not give us permission to publish their response.

      4thwavenow
      Australian Radical Feminists
      Director of Public Health, NHS Forth Valley
      East Dunbartonshire Women’s Aid
      Evangelical Alliance
      Glasgow Reformed Presbyterian Church of Scotland
      GMB
      Hawick Baptist Church
      Snizort FCC Church Isle of Skye
      The Royal Bank of Scotland plc
      Trans Pride Scotland
      YWCA Scotland

    179. Terry Callachan says:

      To Rev Stu Campbell..your post of 1207hrs

      Excuse me but I’m not lying

      I was responding to a post by Cassandra at 1013hrs in which she said, and I quote

      “Everyone who claims here to canvass for the SNP, try explaining the new self-ID policy to doubtful voters.

      Tell them that women will no longer have a claim to any space on the basis of their sex. Tell them sex used to be a protected status in law but is no longer any such thing in Scotland.

      Tell them any man can identify as a women and enter their spaces, be it a toilet where a group of school girls have stopped off on a school trip, a changing room in a shop or even at a leisure centre. Tell them if they object, they are the bigot. Tell them men’s feelings are paramount now and their right to gratification in their chosen identity will now be law. Tell them there are other things far more important and they are missing the point of ‘Independence’.

      Tell them this is personally endorsed by Nicola Sturgeon who does not feel threatened so why should they. Really, try it, if you can honestly explain any of that positively, well done.

      Then try to tell them the Claim of Right says THEY are ‘sovereign’…if they haven’t shut the door in your face by then”

      Check it for yourself ,that is exactly what she said

    180. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 10:57 agree with your comments , if any SNP elected person reading this , i am another SNP Member totally scunnerred with the Party Hierachy in pushing this.
      Looks to me if Sturgeon and Co are trying to destroy any chance of winning Indy Ref 2 if they ever grow a pair and get on with organising one. I do not know of one SNP Member who is in favour of Self Id.

    181. Dr Jim says:

      The complaint by people seems to be that people can expose themselves in public places then claim it’s OK, but that’s still against the law under the Indecent exposure law where nobody can expose themselves to anybody because it’s a crime and you get arrested for it

    182. Bobp says:

      Frank Gillougley 10.25am. ‘Direct rule will be reinstated as everyone knows that’ power devolved is power retained’. Everyman/woman and their dog knows this frank, but just haud oan a minute and you’ll have the resident troll screaming repetitively at you. Do you know this, where is your proof, tell me tell me blah blah blah.

    183. Terry Callachan says:

      The thing is a man been able to identify as a woman and a woman as a man since the 2004 gender recognition act came into force
      Everyone who claims here to canvass for the SNP, try explaining the new self-ID policy to doubtful voters.

      Tell them that women will no longer have a claim to any space on the basis of their sex. Tell them sex used to be a protected status in law but is no longer any such thing in Scotland.

      Tell them any man can identify as a women and enter their spaces, be it a toilet where a group of school girls have stopped off on a school trip, a changing room in a shop or even at a leisure centre. Tell them if they object, they are the bigot. Tell them men’s feelings are paramount now and their right to gratification in their chosen identity will now be law. Tell them there are other things far more important and they are missing the point of ‘Independence’.

      Tell them this is personally endorsed by Nicola Sturgeon who does not feel threatened so why should they. Really, try it, if you can honestly explain any of that positively, well done.

      Then try to tell them the Claim of Right says THEY are ‘sovereign’…if they haven’t shut the door in your face by then

    184. Terry Callachan says:

      Sorry ignore my 1221hrs post it’s part of a previous post duplicated incorrectly

    185. Proud Cybernat says:

      SNP will be making a MASSIVE BLUNDER if they do not put this Self-ID issue to a referendum. This issue is just too contentious and cannot be pushed through HR. It MUST go to a referendum. If it does not go to a referendum then this issue will destroy the SNP.

      Women need safe spaces. This Bill, if passed, would allow ANYONE with a cock to legally enter what are presently protected female spaces (toilets, changing rooms and so on) and those abusing the legislation to potentially have legal access to assault them.

      This cannot be allowed to be pushed through HR – it MUST go to a referendum. If the FM pushes this through then she will have single-handedly compromised women’s rights and the very demographic she needs to win over to have a real shot at Indy will desert her as will, undoubtedly, many men, myself included.

      FM – do not be so BLOODY STUPID with this. Put it TO A REFERENDUM where ALL the people of Scotland can have a say over such a contentious issue.

    186. Breeks says:


      Ian Brotherhood says:
      14 June, 2019 at 10:57 am

      Can’t remember feeling this scunnered since the morning after indy1.

      ?

      Amen.

      Can anybody explain the up side of driving Independence supporters to the actual brink of despair?

      Asking for a friend.

    187. Capella says:

      The consultation was skewed. Only 49% of respondents live in Scotland. Most of the groups consulted were trans supporting groups. Two women’s organisations consulted depend for their funding on the Scottish Government who demand they support trans rights. It should be binned.

      I have written to the SNP and my local Branch to complain about the possible announcement on 25th June. I will resign if Self ID legislation is enacted and will not vote for the SNP again.

    188. Bobp says:

      Re all this self ID malarkey. It wouldnt surprise after 50yrs down the line under a FOI , we find out that (to save our precious union mind) the SNP had been infiltrated by agents of the brutish state. Just my humble opinion mind……and no i dont have any proof of this.

    189. Terry Callachan says:

      The biggest group to respond in Scotland were religious

    190. Petra says:

      @ Cubby at 11:20am …… “Chernobyl.’

      I’ve just started watching this programme too, Cubby (3 episodes) and yes it’s absolutely terrifying. Most of all that the population were kept in the dark before, during and after the event.

      It reminded me that I’ve actually come across MANY people in Scotland who don’t have a clue about the nuclear weapons that we “house”, far less the implications relating to risks and accidents. It also reminded me that the Local Councils should be issuing informative leaflets to householders as to what to do in the event of an attack or accident, in particular in the regions that the convoys pass through. It’s unbelievable to think, know, that the Scottish people are being kept in the dark, no doubt at the behest of Westminster / their Scottish lackies, in line with the Russian people portrayed in the HBO show.

      I reckon that we should all contact our Local Councils and demand that they produce and disseminate information on this subject, ASAP. It’s even more of an imperative now when we see what’s current and looming, such as the instability of the planet, the Iranian situation and Scotland out of the EU and under the control of the warmongering nutters of the World such as Trump and Johnston (any potential Tory PM).

      Meanwhile Chernobyl is a “must watch”, imo.

    191. Ottomanboi says:

      @Rev Stuart Campbell
      The advocates of sexual/gender mash-up in the SNP government are treating this matter as they did same sex marriage.
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/9426224/Gay-marriage-to-be-legalised-in-Scotland-despite-two-thirds-of-people-opposing-change.html
      They’re getting rather good at skewing, ducking and divng and not telling it like it is.
      Sturgeon and pals, I regret to say, seem more concerned with this gender social engineering stuff than the mega massive issue in the room.

    192. Ken500 says:

      Swimming pools have had missed changing rooms for years. There are separate changing rooms and families cubicles. Absolutely no problems.

      In some swimming pools people have to sign a register to take family photos. There are plenty of staff available.

      The problem with toilets is men pee on the floor. More cleaning up. Many smaller cafes have had mixed toilets for years. Absolutely no problems.

      A total storm in a teacup.

    193. Terry Callachan says:

      What we are talking about here is trying to make life easier for people who have real difficulties in their lives
      The gender recognition Act was passed in 2004
      By the UK Westminster government

      The EU reached a decision recently saying human rights are involved here

      The Scottish government is reviewing the 2004 Act with a view to proposing amendments to improve what is in the Act

      The review has not been published and yet we are seeing so many people issuing scare stories about women being forced to share toilets and changing rooms with men

      Well since the 2004 Act came into force men have been able to present themselves as women and women as men so there probably has already been instances of them doing so and possibly in toilets and changing rooms without people being aware it wouldn’t be that difficult if you put your mind to it

      So let’s wait and see what the Scottish government consultation comes up with and evaluate whether or not it improves the 2004 Act

      The problem is at present that so many people commenting here and elsewhere are complaining about things they are frightened the Scottish government will introduce but they are things that the 2004 Gender recognition Act already allow

    194. Capella says:

      If I was a British Nationalist seeking to destroy public support for the SNP and, by extension, Independence, this is exactly the type of legislation I would promote. The Greens are also tarnished by this.

      Ruth Davidson’s demand that the SNP win an outright majority won’t be necessary if the Greens also lose support.

    195. Ken500 says:

      Chernobyl has a cover over which will last 100 years. There was a programme about the construction on TV. Fascinating. The work had to be done outside the safe guideline. A French Company.

    196. Petra says:

      @ Proud Cybernat at 12:22pm …. “Referendum.”

      Spot on PC. This issue should be put on hold, explained clearly to the Scots in general, including the Law and the UN / EU stance, followed by a Referendum. The Unionists are sitting waiting with bated breath on this being pushed through. Not to worry right enough as people like James Kelly, who have kept their mouths shut throughout, will be at the forefront of having it knocked back, overturned, and taking the credit for it no doubt.

    197. Ken500 says:

      Swimming pools etc have had mixed changing rooms for years. Totally no problems.

    198. Capella says:

      What I’m talking about here is biology. It is not possible to change sex. Sex is determined at conception through either xx or xy chromosomes developing into a foetus. Yes I know there are anomalies but the vast majority – over 95% are either male (xy) or female (xx). This can never change throughout life.

      It is delusionary to say that you can be born into the wrong body.

      Biology still works in Scotland.

    199. Terry Callachan says:

      To Capella your post of 1228hrs

      You are wrong the percentage of respondents from Scotland was 63.03% not 49%

      Here is the result look half way down the page 104 of 165 submissions were from groups in Scotland

      https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00540424.pdf

    200. Proud Cybernat says:

      We can have a progressive ScotGov building an inclusive society but absolutely NOT at the expense of impinging one group’s hard won rights over those of another’s.

      Put it to a Referendum, FM.

    201. Terry Callachan says:

      To Capella your post of 1257 hrs

      I agree with you that the biology is set pretty much as you say but surely you cannot dispute that there are men who are very girlie and women who are very much more like men in their behaviour and how they feel and how they present themselves to the world.
      You can’t just consider the biology in isolation
      You have to consider how a person feels and how they present themself to the world
      It’s cruel it’s unjust not to consider these
      Human rights law recognises that ignoring what is called gender dysphoria is wrong

      Dysphoria
      Dictionary
      nounMEDICINE
      the condition of feeling one’s emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one’s biological sex

    202. Effijy says:

      Hang in there guys we are making progress and what a positive result in the Wings fund raiser.

      Could I make a comment on someone using a toilet or changing facility that you feel they are not entitled to?

      If a man was to fake his sexual orientation and wear a dress to enter a changing room in order to act in a perverted fashion, you call the police.

      If a man not faking anything just pushes his way in with perversion in mind, call the police.

      If a person in transition uses your changing room and acts in the same fashion as everyone else giving each their space and privacy
      then what is there to complain about.

      Do men refuse a female doctor if they have issues with their genitalia?. Do women reject male gynecologists?

      If any person is going about their duties or daily life acting in a reasonable manner and not reaching beyond accepted boundaries
      I really don’t see a problem.

      Travelling in France I recall using urinals with women walking behind me to use the cubicles.

      I was a little uncomfortable as it was the first I’d encountered this type of thing but I just used the facility keeping my self to myself and the ladies the same.

      If I exposed my self deliberately or women were to act inappropriately I’m sure actions would have been taken by others there and the police contacted if necessary.

      I also thought Thailand had a really relaxed outlook to transgender people. I did unfortunately stare at people who where obviously big burly men walking up the street in short shirts and
      lip stick but the Thai people don’t give them a second glance.
      Its just people who have made their own choices going about their daily business.

      Lets revisit our own minds before we try to change the minds of those we don’t know.

    203. Doug says:

      Independence, first and foremost.

    204. Terry Callachan says:

      To proud cyber at your post 1.02pm

      Who’s rights are being impinged by whom ?
      Who are the groups you are referring to ?

      The proposals from Scottish government appear to be tightening certain areas of the gender recognition act 2004
      For example they suggest that people wanting to to be recognised as a different gender should go before a judge or JP provide evidence and information to support their request and then have to sign a declaration agreeing to particular terms

    205. schrodingers cat says:

      I agree this legislation should be kicked into the long grass

      it is too divisive at the exact moment we need to unite and push for the most important issue of our generation. independence.

    206. Harry mcaye says:

      To watch Chernobyl don’t you have to give Rupert Murdoch money? No thanks.

      I’m with Stu on self-ID. It’s nonsense and I can’t believe the SNP are about to press self-destruct just when things are going so well (and Johnson as PM is about as good as it’s going to get for perfect Indy conditions). I’ll just turn up at the gym, say I identify as a woman and walk right in to see the naked ladies!

    207. kapelmeister says:

      The bloke from The Apprentice that enjoys saying “You’re fired!” has endorsed Boris Johnson.

      That makes BoJo a Sugar-coated pillock.

    208. Capella says:

      @ TC – of course I accept that men and women have a range of behaviours that traditional sex stereotypes say they shouldn’t have. So change the stereotypes.

      But 98% of violent offences are committed by biological men and that doesn’t change if they call themselves women. That’s why safe spaces for women and girls are necessary.

    209. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Callachan.

      Watch my lips.

      “PUT IT TO A REFERENDUM OF ALL THE PEOPLE IN SCOTLAND”.

      Got it?

    210. Terry Callachan says:

      To Effijy your post at 1.09pm

      I agree with the points you make

      Furthermore…
      The place where women suffer most abuse , assault , ill treatment , sexual assault
      Is in their own home

      Usually by someone that knows them well or is a relative

      as we have seen too often the risk is in places that have a certain isolation
      or places where the abused either cannot leave or its difficult to leave freely

      Examples
      The place where they actually live
      care homes for children
      Church establishments
      Youth clubs and sports clubs

    211. Terry Callachan says:

      To proud cybernat…your post at 1.21pm

      Sorry I wasn’t watching
      Can you do that again
      I missed your lips moving

      Hang on ..I can’t lip read

      Hang on how can I watch your lips on wings ?

      Explain please

      OH , you can’t

      How about a name change

      Proud Cyberprat

    212. Jack Murphy says:

      So,I quote:
      “Ruth Davidson confirms she would work with Boris Johnson,if he became Prime Minister”.

      Here EXACTLY is what Lord Patten a Senior Tory
      former Tory Party Chair
      former European Commissioner
      and former Chairman of the BBC Trust thinks about Boris Johnson !

      2 minute VIDEO CLIP with article last month:
      https://tinyurl.com/y4484y8c

    213. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Callachan

      Nice try. No’ biting. We see you.

    214. Legerwood says:

      Ken500 says:
      14 June, 2019 at 12:48 pm

      “”Many smaller cafes have had mixed toilets for years. Absolutely no problems.””
      …………..

      Small cafes have a Single toilet which men and women use at DIFFERENT times.

      They are NOT in the same toilet space at the same time.

      This is not the first time you have used this as an argument on this issue. It is a totally false argument/example.

    215. Robert Peffers says:

      @David P says: 14 June, 2019 at 7:39 am:

      ” … How about Scotland votes – decisively – to leave the UK.
      Simple. Straightforward.
      Unambiguous. And permanent.
      Anything else is tinkering round the edges.

      I said it, long ago. here on Wings, ” … Scotland’s greatest strength is that her people are legally sovereign and Scotland’s greatest weakness is that her people are legally sovereign.

      Yet getting them all together to use their legal sovereignty is Scotland’s biggest problem.”.

      Nothing much has changed since I said that – excepting for the fact that getting them to act together is a great deal closer now than at any time in my lifetime.

      It’s comin yet fir aa that.

    216. Cubby says:

      Callachan

      A large number of posts from Callachan on this thread and not one of them containing his usual anti English bigotry. Well done Terry old boy.

    217. Cubby says:

      A big shout for the Scottish women’s football team. Get right into them.

    218. H Scott says:

      Scotland world cup match on BBC. English commentator!

    219. Ghillie says:

      Just as the US of A gears up to re-elect Trump…

      The Tories: ‘Hold my beer’.

    220. Ghillie says:

      Good luck Scotland 🙂

      Play your best game and enjoy =)

      We are all so proud of you already 🙂

    221. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers @ 01.50 pm and David P @ 7.39 am

      Aye Aye to you both =)

      It IS comin yet fir aa that 🙂

    222. Luigi says:

      Very strange coincidence. Bojo looks a shoe-in for PM, hard Brexit on the cards, SNP membership starts to climb again, legislation for indyref 2 in preparation. When suddenly……..

      Wooosh – one almighty stushie about this gender ID (of which I havent the foggiest). SNP BAD SNP BAD.

      Amazing coincidence, don’t you think? The timing couldn’t have been better for the British establishment.

      What is going on?

    223. call me dave says:

      Wie was robbed…kinda thing!

      But wie was never really in the game in the first half except for passing backwards or square and not too confident at that either. 🙁

      Must do better in next half.

    224. Breeks says:

      Quote from the Guardian…

      “Boris Johnson has claimed he can achieve an “orderly, managed Brexit” on deadline by ditching the Northern Irish backstop in favour of “alternative arrangements”.

      As I understand it, “ditching the Backstop” effectively means ditching the Good Friday Agreement, which is an Internationally recognised Peace Treaty which you “ditch” at your peril.

      You won’t get a Trade Deal with the US for a start, and you will be held accountable for any resumption of the Troubles. I must assume that’s international ostracism and trade sanctions are what he means by “alternative arrangements”.

    225. Just when independence is within sight, they look to bring a self-id policy in, alienating all those women.

    226. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 14 June, 2019 at 8:20 am:

      ” … But didn’t the Catalans vote decisively to leave Spain? Apparently a vote needs more than a majority. It’s not awareness that Sovereignty depends upon, it’s formal recognition.”

      As I’ve pointed out to you before, Breeks, there is no legal comparison between the Catalan and Scottish cases for independence other that that both of them seek independence.

      First of all Catalonia is legally one of many semi-autonomous regions of the country of Spain and Spain has a written constitution which means a Catalonian breakaway is breaking a legally binding written constitution.

      Scotland is legally an equally sovereign bipartite partner kingdom along with the Kingdom of England in the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is legally exactly that, “a united kingdom”, and it is not thus a country.

      The United Kingdom, though, does indeed have a legally binding written constitution as it was constituted by the Treaty of Union and each one of the Articles Of Union is, in itself, a legally binding contract.

      In any bipartite international treaty either party can legally end the union at any time and needs no permission to do so. BTW: More than one Westminster Minister has quoted exactly that principle in the House of Commons of recent months. Mind you they were speaking about the UK’s legal right to leave the EU and were idiotically unaware they were enhancing the Kingdom of Scotland’s claims to be able to legally end the United Kingdom.

      The rest of what you claim is blethers for there is great difference in having the international courts state that the legal case for ending the UK is legally sound and Catalonia breaking from Spain against a legally binding Written constitution.

      The first, The Kingdom of Scotland, only requires a legal judgement while the second cannot get a legal judgement and thus must have the recognition of other World powers and that even if the courts rule that they have the Human Right of being a recognisable people claiming the right of self determination.

      Scotland does not require the right to claim self determination as Scotland already has that right but is prevented from claiming it although being already legally an equal partner in the United Kingdom as clearly stated in the Treaty of Union.

      There are many legal anomalies around the World caused by powerful nations over riding the law but I cannot think of any comparable to the United Kingdom.

      Here is an example of an anomaly:-

      You may notice, (now I’ve mentioned it), and, by coincidence, I came across one only yesterday on Google. I was looking for something else in relation to, “The United States of America”, and to save typing the whole thing out I searched for it by typing, “The USA”. Google then prompted me, “Did you mean The US?”

      Now that may seem innoxious to you but it really isn’t. Remember these are a people who refer to themselves as simply, “Americans”. But hang on there – are not the North, Central and South Americans aboriginal nations the real, “Americans”?

      Then it dawned upon me why Google distinguished between the United States of America and the United States. Firstly there are many united States throughout the World so why, “THE United States”? Worse still why just, “The United States”, when immediately just south of the USA border there is “The United States Of Mexico”?.

      Now do you get the point?

    227. Petra says:

      The Republic of Ireland – Transgender laws explained.

      http://www.thejournal.ie/transgender-laws-in-ireland-explainer-4453493-Jan2019/

    228. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “I have seen on the internet calls for the Scottish Government to pay for the over-75’s TV licence for those pensioners residing in Scotland.” @Marcia says at 10:04 am

      Why oh why would the Scottish Government PAY to ensure hostile propaganda on behalf of a Foreign Government was beamed into anyone in Scotlands home?

      I agree with you.

      Don’t mitigate

      But point out to the over 75s that if they want their TV Licences paid for by the Scots Gov it would mean the same value would have to be withheld from the SNHS.

      What is more important to them, watching live TV vs Healthcare provision?

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      “It’s a Union of consent stripped of the necessity and opportunity to renew that consent”

      Westminster is the source of Britain’s structural racism and British nationalism is the articulation of misogynistic racism. It is an expansionist form of English nationalism. It is a form of fascism.

    230. Bobp says:

      Jockanese wind talker. Unless its their lives on the line, then SOME of these elderly yoon voters would rather watch tv licence free. C’mon lets face it. Its in their selfish i’m alright jack nature. And the snp gov should mitigate zero nada zilch for them at the expense of other services. In my humble opinion.

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      To explain why British nationalism is misogynistic fascism. British nationalism is authoritarian in nature (see Scotland’s democratic deficit), and impervious to international human rights law (see Scotland’s democratic deficit). British nationalism aims to keep Scotland subordinate to English legal doctrine. As such, British nationalism is opposed to the principle of universal human rights. Subsequently, British nationalism is a form of “rational paternalism” and cultural patriarchy.

    232. Bobp says:

      Luigi 2.34. What i said in my post at 12.34. But then again what do i know. The real trolls call me a troll. Deflect from themselves.

    233. Bobp says:

      Sorry luigi. My post at 12.36pm

    234. Patrick Roden says:

      I’m seriously wondering why I even bother with politics now, because this shows that ‘they’ really are all just the same.

      The sense of ‘we know better’ from the SNP leadership on this has scunnered me to the point that I’m just about done with them.

      We can comment, give money that many of us don’t have enough of, go into the streets, persuade people etc, only for the SNP to come away with this load of shit, that will surely drive away thousands of women as well as men who look at a man with a beard and reuse to call him a she.

      As for these men going into children’s changing rooms.Are you shitting me???

      Well, I’m done. It’s been great posting on her for the past few years, and I wish you all the best, but I just can’t go on pretending that Nicola has still got her eye on the prize, and that just as that lot down Westminster, she and her cronies are not using the privileged position that we voted to give her, to further her own personal agenda.

      Goodbye. 🙁

    235. Bobp says:

      Breeks 2.58pm boris can ditch the backstop if he likes. Cant imagine too many companies/corporations wanting to invest in a london canary wharf futuristic scenario.

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. British nationalism being a form of misogynistic racism. Perhaps this is why Scotland’s judiciary feel ambivalent towards Westminster’s abuse of constitutional power and (il)legal domination of Scotland.

      Feminist Theory And The Law
      https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199604456.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199604456-e-016

    237. Bob Mack says:

      Just cancelled my SNP membership after consultation with my wife and daughter. I feel that their latest political stunt of self ID is a step too far considering that all rights are already respected.

      I will always vote for an indy party of course which may be difficult to find, but when the party thinks it knows more than the membership it is time to move on.

      I will keep contributing to the Rev of course as he is the best thing for indy since “The Bruce” in my humble opinion.

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here a bit more feminist legal theory. This one is relevant to both Scotland’s constitutional subjugation and ‘women’ with dicks. Sorry, no full text.

      Self-Determination and Empowerment: A Feminist Standpoint Analysis of Talk about Disability
      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1005197704441

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit entails legal violence towards the legal personality of all those living in Scotland. Rational liberals and racist fascist alike. That’s unhealthy and culturally harmful, mk. The first principle of administrative law is to do no harm!

      Over to you Scotland’s judiciary.

      Sari Kuovo and Zoe Pearson (eds). Feminist Perspectives on Contemporary International Law: Between Resistance and Compliance?
      Gina Heathcote. The Law on the Use of Force: A Feminist Analysis

    240. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Patrick Roden (3.45) –

      What you have written there is almost exactly what I felt like posting this morning.

      Some commenters in this place have turned their guns on anyone who dares express the mildest irritation with SG/NS but have fallen strangely silent when it comes to GRA/self-ID. That, in itself, speaks volumes.

      I hope you hang around but I wouldn’t blame you for throwing in the towel. If the Scottish women and girls who are enraged by this business are not reassured to their satisfaction, and soon, then the fight for independence will be damaged, perhaps irreperably. This isn’t about what Pat Kane, Rev Stu, you or I, as blokes, feel about it all – it’s down to our sisters, mums, neices, aunties and grannies to decide what’s right for them, and even the briefest scan of Scottish social media right now shows that they’re awfy fuckin angry about it.

    241. mike cassidy says:

      So.

      The question that needs to be asked.

      Why are the women with penises not creating their own safe spaces?

      Why are they so intent on accessing the safe spaces of the women with vaginas instead?

    242. Robert Peffers says:

      @SOG says:14 June, 2019 at 11:56 am:

      ” … I have female friends & family to feel concern about”.

      I wouldn’t worry over much if I were you, SOG. Now I’m an old guy but it has been my experience that most of the ladies are more than capable of looking after themselves and especially when in a group together.

      Now this incident happened many, many years ago but I have never forgotten it. As apprentices our year was split up after the first 18 months and I found myself in a group of six assigned to working in the main Naval Stores tubing and rewiring the electrics. This wasn’t so very long after WWII had ended and the main Naval Stores department was still comprised of mainly women who had server throughout the war years.

      Anyway, the main Stores was a very large building and depressingly built to withstand bomb blasts so was all very thick reinforced concrete walls with everywhere inside looking like everywhere else. We were in our first weeks there and no one had really found their way around very well.

      Anyway, the women had a small room built of wood and plasterboard set aside as a rest room within the big and high stores areas. As we needed a place to keep our gear, store, and so on they built a bit just like the woman’s rest room.

      One afternoon one of the apprentices had become rather disorientated while going for some conduit and walked, unannounced into the woman’s rest room by mistake.

      First the rest of us knew about it was when we heard some blood curdling screams. Now this place was partly lit by just temporary lighting and was, even at best dark and dingy so we though he had met with an accident of some sort – and in a way he had.

      By the time we got to him he was back outside the woman’s rest room – minus his overalls, trousers and underwear, shaking like a leaf and as white as a ghost with his underpants on his head.

      He probably still thinks to this day that he had just escaped being forcibly gang raped by a group of raving middle aged ladies. Enough to put the fear of death into Big Daddy the wrestler never mind a young raw apprentice laddie.

      No other person in our group ever came close to making the same mistake after that.

      Mind you these women had muscles like Tarzan having been shifting heavy crates and boxed naval stores equipment and loading up lorries for many years.

    243. Bobp says:

      I’d say to everyone lets stick with the party who gets us our independence. Then we can vote for who we like. EYES ON THE PRIZE. laws can always be repealed by incoming scottish indy governments.

    244. manandboy says:

      Tweet of the week surely must go to;

      foralltime in the Guardian

      McVey would switch off your life support machine to charge her phone.”

    245. Bobp says:

      Frank gillougley 10.25am. Still no reply from the usual suspect, You dodged a bullet there frank. Lol.

    246. Juteman says:

      @Patrick Roden
      As a fellow Dundonian and active campaigner at the first Indyref, I totally get where you are coming from.
      I’m now thinking Jim Sillars comments about MI5 infiltrators at all levels in the SNP might be right on the money.
      Indyref 2 is ours to throw away.

    247. Bobp says:

      Manandboy. I did smile cynically when i read that online.

    248. Dorothy Devine says:

      Did anyone else see a headline saying ‘NHS sandwich Kills 2 more’?

      Wonder if it will get the attention of the same standard as pigeon poo.

    249. Bobp says:

      Patrick roden. Dont throw in the towel patrick. Vote yes.good man.

    250. CameronB Brodie says:

      I might have mentioned I’m a bit of a post-colonial feminist. So what? Please don’t think I’m mansplaining, I’m fortunate to have had a formal introduction to this stuff. 😉

      Patriarchy and Inequality: Towards a Substantive
      Feminism

      https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1266&context=uclf

    251. Bobp says:

      CameronB Brodie 3.24pm. Now thats the kinda post i like to read from you cameron. Straight to the point.

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bobp
      I felt it needed to be said and now was a good time to say it. Cheers for the nod. 😉

    253. Bobp says:

      Anyhhoos im offski, too much sangria now. Back home (dorset) hame is ayrshire. On sat. Hope ive no offended anyone. Unless its a troll. Adios from catalunya.

    254. CameronB Brodie says:

      Patrick Roden
      Please don’t leave the forum, your comments are appreciated. This is a time that women and Scotland most need the support of reasonable men.

    255. Capella says:

      The time to resign is when they actually introduce and pass Self ID legislation and/or fail to protect women’s safe spaces.

      Now is the time to let them know what you will do IF they introduce Self ID and/or fail to protect women’s safe spaces.

      It would be useful to know who is promoting this move and why. The Greens are committed to pushing this agenda and Ross Greer seems particularly angry with Joan McAlpine for not obeying his demand for changes to the Census 21 to allow trans men to self ID as a third sex (which, of course doesn’t exist). So I think it is important to support Joan McAlpine and her colleagues who refuse to drink the kool aid.

    256. Balaaargh says:

      So this GRA issue isn’t specific to Scotland. The WM consultation finished last October and I haven’t found anything after that. I am always sceptical about succumbing to hyperbole but a lot of the language from the lobby groups and “activists” is downright offensive, dismissive cry-bullying.

      Anyone know why this is so important? Why is the SG in such a rush when WM don’t have it as a priority? What’s Ruthie’s opinion (today) on the matter?

      Better yet, equal opportunities is NOT a devolved matter (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/devolution-settlement-scotland) so why is this even a thing?

    257. Liz g says:

      Effijy @ 1.09
      You make good points and while they are something to “aspire” to,that’s no the world we live in!
      I can only speak from personal experience and fortunately not from having been a victim of gender based threat of violence
      But….
      My daughter and I could not have gotten a young mum out of a bad relationship had we not been able to speak with her in a place that her partner couldn’t follow… AKA… The ladies toilet.
      From a practical point of view
      As a young mum myself back in the day,I could not have comfortably allowed my eldest daughter to go use the toilets when out and about without taking my two other kids both under 3 and all the shopping and leaving all the food we haddnt finished had there not been an exclusively female toilet.
      She was old enough to understand that had she came across a man in there she should leave and or use the tried and tested ” find another mum ” to help!
      What concerns me now is the loss of the ability to be that
      ” other mum/ gran ” !
      There are very few women I’d imagine, who haven’t come across a Trans guy in the ladies,we know why they are there and completely get that they cannot safely use the gents.
      In my experience they are mostly shy and respectful,they don’t bother anybody and if you make eye contact and smile they almost always smile back and engage in general chit chat!
      We are no talking about them being any kind of threat here,we are talking about opening the door for the men who are a threat and giving them legal cover
      Nevertheless as a mature adult female I absolutely reserve the right to challenge anybody in a female space who is behaving in a way that is intimidating to younger less assertive women and girls.
      The thought that this would now put me in the wrong and at risk of being deemed to have broken the law,I find deeply disturbing.
      So it’s a wee bit more than live and let live!!!

      Also, as far as I can tell there’s no heed being paid to,what I consider a valuable personal safety mechanism…. Something I describe to my Daughter’s as their “Spider Senses”!!
      As in…
      If your spider sense is tingling,listen to it and get out of the situation….
      I consider this to be a part of the female survival response and to try to tell us that there is a woman in front of us when it’s clearly a man is to argue with reality.
      I don’t care how people live or love but I won’t be told that I am seeing something that is not real and I can’t see any amount of legislation that could make me see something that’s not there!
      This is stupid legislation and needs to be rethought…

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      Balaaargh
      The trans-rights lobby is an international movement, with significant political power and financial backing. Equality legislation is often perceived by governments as low-hanging fruit. Although sexual equality has huge significance to diversity, it is low on the public radar, largely because of the narrow focus of public interest fostered by the corporate media. Some bright-spark probably thought it makes the SNP administration look progressive and was of little importance to the achievement of independence.

      Fucking moron is all I can add.

    259. Capella says:

      To correct misinformation posted by Terence Callaghan upthread – the Scottish Government consultation received:

      Overall, 49% of respondents are resident in Scotland, with 38% resident in the rest of the UK and the remaining 13% resident elsewhere in the world. The majority of organisations (62%) were based in Scotland.

      There is a table listing the groups consulted. Of these, 54 were LGBT or Trans groups (33 from outwith Scotland) and 20 were women’s groups. There were also 32 “Other” groups, designation unknown. So it is not surprising that there was a majority supporting the trans point of view.

      https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00540424.pdf

    260. Balaaargh says:

      @CameronB,

      Agreed, said bright-spark needs to take a long hard look at themself. The whole piece sounds like pseudo-libertarian guff masquerading as being progressive and forward thinking.

    261. CameronB Brodie says:

      I suggested Westminster is the source of Britain’s structural racism. That’s incorrect, it is the nexus of cultural forces that have shaped a legal environment that is harmfull to Scotland’s well-being and future potential.

      Feminist Strategy in International Law: Understanding Its Legal, Normative and Political Dimensions
      https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/28/4/1019/4866309

      Over to you Scotland’s judiciary.

    262. Essexexile says:

      The only thing passing as a defence of the self ID policy is the hope that most people won’t find out about it so the potentially catastrophic effect on support for indy is somehow worth the risk.
      That’s in a country where we’re all agreed the MSM will use the tiniest negative morsel and turn it into an SNP bad headline.
      That’s some risk.
      When this leaks out beyond Twitter it’s going to go nuclear.
      I imagine the Scottish Daily Mail will kick off with something like ‘Nicola’s green light to sex pests’ and run with it from there.
      The ridiculous likelihood is that this daft policy will end up stigmatising the minority it is seeking to benefit.
      The whole thing has the stench of immature student union politics where a cabal of daft wee idiots are pushing their personal agenda. Only difference is that now they are jeopardising their country’s right to self determination at THE pivotal moment.
      If they fuck this up……

      Utterly incredulous.

    263. Dr Jim says:

      Rangers supporters across the Internet expressing their delight at the result of Scotland’s defeat to Japan

      Perhaps Johaan Lamont was right about Scottish people

    264. CameronB Brodie says:

      For an informative perspective that is scientifically authoritative, you can do a lot worse than Critical Realism (the meta-theory used to understand complex causation in the the social sciences). From a Critical Realism perspective, sex-based rights can only be claimed in relation to an individual’s sexual epistemology, or their embodied life experience as a sexed individual. Subsequently, trans-women do not have an automatic right to be considered women, as their sexual history is different to that of biological women. It is a privilege for trans-women to be considered women, they have no automatic right to undermine the sex-based human rights of women.

    265. Dan says:

      @Dr Jim

      I gave up following fitba when players stated earning 10k a week. However my interest has recently been rekindled now that I’ve discovered bubble football.

      Maybe whomever came up with pushing this Self ID idea was a keen player of the beautiful bubble game and as a result their brain is more concussed than a punch drunk boxer…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ijop2gU_S4

    266. CameronB Brodie says:

      Balaaargh
      “pseudo-libertarian guff masquerading as being progressive”

      Bingo. This is what happens when neo-liberalism colonises feminist theory.

    267. Dean says:

      Ruth says political spectrum… Clearly means autistic and/or psychopath spectrum.

    268. Essexexile says:

      Just idly imagining a scene in the House of Commons bar. Ken Clarke and Ian Blackford are enjoying a single malt while lamenting over another day dominated by no deal brexiteers.
      Clarke: Europe is the issue that will soon damage my party beyond repair. I admire the solidarity you have in the SNP, I can’t imagine anything breaking that apart.
      Blackford: Ah wouldnae be so sure aboot that Ken, I hear they’ve dreamt up something pretty special in Edinburgh.

    269. Gary45% says:

      Dan@6.10
      As its crazy politics Friday or any other day I suppose, bubble football= brilliant, have a wee look on youtube at the “100m Final HK Men -6th IRR Retro running world championships.” Backwards 100m, brilliant.
      Sorry I don’t manage to post links on “tinternet”

    270. Frank Gillougley says:

      Bobp 4.37

      Talking of bullets, funnily enough, Carson city and Dodge city are just along the road: namely, Armadale and Bathgate.

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      So what is the point of feminist legal theory?

      The Emergence of Feminist Jurisprudence: An Essay

      A hand or something passes across the sun. Your eyeballs slacken, you are free for a moment. Then it comes back: this test of the capacity to keep in focus this unfair struggle with the forces of perception

      https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7010&context=ylj

      Over to you Scotland’s judiciary.

    272. Doug says:

      Hope everybody has a good day at tomorrow’s march in Oban.

      Independence, first and foremost.

    273. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Peffers says:
      Arrgh! I used one of Rev Stu’s banned Words so it is still waiting moderation – and here it is with the offending term altered.
      14 June, 2019 at 4:22 pm
      @SOG says:14 June, 2019 at 11:56 am:
      ” … I have female friends & family to feel concern about”.
      I wouldn’t worry over much if I were you, SOG. Now I’m an old guy but it has been my experience that most of the ladies are more than capable of looking after themselves and especially when in a group together.
      Now this incident happened many, many years ago but I have never forgotten it. As apprentices our year was split up after the first 18 months and I found myself in a group of six assigned to working in the main Naval Stores tubing and rewiring the electrics. This wasn’t so very long after WWII had ended and the main Naval Stores department was still comprised of mainly women who had server throughout the war years.
      Anyway, the main Stores was a very large building and depressingly built to withstand bomb blasts so was all very thick reinforced concrete walls with everywhere inside looking like everywhere else. We were in our first weeks there and no one had really found their way around very well.
      Anyway, the women had a small room built of wood and plasterboard set aside as a rest room within the big and high stores areas. As we needed a place to keep our gear, store, and so on they built a bit just like the woman’s rest room.
      One afternoon one of the apprentices had become rather disorientated while going for some conduit and walked, unannounced into the woman’s rest room by mistake.
      First the rest of us knew about it was when we heard some blood curdling screams. Now this place was partly lit by just temporary lighting and was, even at best dark and dingy so we though he had met with an accident of some sort – and in a way he had.
      By the time we got to him he was back outside the woman’s rest room – minus his overalls, trousers and underwear, shaking like a leaf and as white as a ghost with his underpants on his head.
      He probably still thinks to this day that he had just escaped being forcibly gang assaulted by a group of raving middle aged ladies. Enough to put the fear of death into Big Daddy the wrestler never mind a young raw apprentice laddie.
      No other person in our group ever came close to making the same mistake after that.
      Mind you these women had muscles like Tarzan having been shifting heavy crates and boxed naval stores equipment and loading up lorries for many years.

    274. Hamish100 says:

      So a person with a penis should be allowed into a female changing room. No they should not.

      Are you listening SNP hierarchy. Please respond online. Cheers

      Ps on behalf of my wife 2 daughters, son, sister and brothers – you get the idea.

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s why feminist jurisprudence is important.

      The Gender of Constitutional Jurisprudence

      Asking how women are, so to speak, constituted by law around the world reveals how vastly the unknown overshadows the known. What is a constitution in gendered terms, and why should women care about this particular legal form? As a species of law, is it more or less conducive than others to addressing women’s problems as women? As a species of politics, do democratic constitutions work to empower women, or do they more tend to institutionalize male power? If law is male,1 how is a constitution masculine?
      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/5/3/557/647346?searchresult=1

    276. Ken500 says:

      People have more chance of injury in a toilet from accidental injury than being attacked in a toilet. 10,000? In the US 40,000. Than being attacked. No recorded figures? Elvis died on a toilet. The king on the throne.

      No one is suggesting that there will not be separate toilets. Just a tiny minority who will use them. If people attack other people They get appropriate action.

      Women get on very well with Gay people and trans people. They show empathy. It is often men who cause the trouble attacking people. Men are 4 times more likely to be attacked than women. It is mainly men who attack people. It is a gender issue. Nurture, nature or testosterone. The question might be to even allow some men to use the toilet.

    277. starlaw says:

      Whats all this self ID sex nonsense about Ive never heard anything about it on any news broadcasts. Any political party that introduces such a law will be as dead as any man found in a ladies toilet. Can you imagine the females , brothers, fathers or husbands would do to them. No debate no discussion just whack.

    278. ahundredthidiot says:

      and when we finally have full, complete, unobstructed equality, there will be no more need for mens and womens sports (how 20th century), just like the lavvys.

      and when we watch the rugby or the football we will all be watching………men playing. and women will be set back 50 years. and it has started with Wimbledon, where women get paid more than men (same pot, best of 3 over 5 – nuts).

      If you get on this gender bus, or simply wave as it passes, you are suffering from the worst mental illness for a hundred years (WW1)

      all because a few rich wimmen working for the BBC want more money.

    279. Essexexile says:

      @Ken500
      Seriously, I know we’ve exchanged views vigorously before and I’d kind of vowed to steer clear, but you really are missing the point in a big way.
      This issue can’t be explained away or made a bit more fluffy. It is a fundamental erosion of women’s rights.
      People who seek to gain ‘personal gratification’ from being in a female only space are being helped by this policy. It’s not about whether a physical attack or injury occurs in a changing room, it is the thought that anybody is welcome in there with you. Predatory individuals will seek out places where they can be closest to their targets. The SNP are literally opening the door for them.
      Only a woman can truly feel how repulsive that thought is. I’m male, but I’ve got a fair idea.
      Women’s safety (that is how safe women feel, not how safe somebody else thinks they are) is a fundamental part of our society.
      Unfortunately, the SNP have decided it’s up to them to decide how safe women are and it’s not up for debate, despite less than 20% of Scots agreeing with them.
      That, from the party that is trying to sell the idea that Scotland is being taken out of the EU against it’s will.
      See the problem?

    280. Dr Jim says:

      That’s the trouble they don’t want equal rights, they want more rights, and that means the rest of us have less, and well that just won’t work will it

      Storm in a teacup about men getting punched in the face for being where they aught not to be, and no polis in Scotland will defend that *right*

      I self Identify as Amy Adams boyfriend and demand my rights, she might not see it that way and punch me in the face if I go anywhere near her though

    281. alistair x says:

      tomorrow I march, 90 miles from my home, kilt and flags pressed, to look good, and give a kind hand to our great and just cause,
      ive been a patriot all my adult life, since 14, im now 60, ive waited to long in my mind,for the great day. and many better men and women have went to the great beyond without hearing the bells of freedom.
      the snp is our spearhead, our enemies know it, :kill the shepherd and the sheep will scatter:
      We have to be strong, if I used an allegory, I see the snp as a plucky racehorse, coming to a final victory and then in the winners enclosure, to the cheers off the crowd I drew a .38 calibre Webley and blow its head off.
      The S.N.P.was only made for one purpose, the democratic freeing off ourselves from England.
      I have no love off it. its only a weapon to be used, after they fell into the trap over Alec I am weary off them.

    282. Terry callachan says:

      To proud cyberprat….your post of 1.36pm

      I don’t bite , never need to

    283. Essexexile says:

      @Dr Jim
      Actually, I don’t think ‘they’ do want more rights. Judging by some of the comments on the Rev’s Twitter feed there is opposition to this policy from some in the trans community who see it as a step too far and potentially damaging to trans people. I believe pre / post op is an important distinction in self ID and for many this seems the point of ‘acceptance’.
      SNP will have any Tom, Dick or Harriet walking into a female changing room as long as they claim to be a woman.
      The policy needs revising quickly and fundamentally before it sees the light of day.

    284. Terry callachan says:

      To Capella ..your post at 5.37pm

      Thanks for correcting that point about the Scottish government consultation on proposals to reform the gender recognition act 2004

    285. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      14 June, 2019 at 3:08 pm
      @Breeks says: 14 June, 2019 at 8:20 am:

      ….First of all Catalonia is legally one of many semi-autonomous regions of the country of Spain and Spain has a written constitution which means a Catalonian breakaway is breaking a legally binding written constitution.

      Scotland is legally an equally sovereign bipartite partner kingdom along with the Kingdom of England in the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is legally exactly that, “a united kingdom”, and it is not thus a country.

      Yes Robert, I agree with you. No dissent… But…. take the Brexit negotiations between Westminster and Michel Barnier with the preposterous exclusion of Scotland from the negotiations. If ever there was greater cause and due responsibility to cite Scotland’s Constitutional status, surely that was an opportunity missed.

      Europe’s hands were tied, not just with Brexit, but YES2014, because the recognised sovereignty which has jurisdiction over Scotland isn’t Scottish Sovereignty but Westminster Parliamentary Sovereignty.

      If Scotland holds a referendum, then Westminster can cite Parliamentary Sovereignty and declare the vote unconstitutional and unlawful, and Scotland will find itself out in the corridor once again just like it was for Brexit.

      If we hold a referendum in Scotland, we will have to prove it’s sovereign legitimacy, and yes, in a just world we can certainly do that, but my whole argument is that we establish that sovereign legitimacy first, and secure its International Recognition BEFORE we ever hold the vote to end the Union.

      If we don’t do that, we will be like Catalonia, with a meaningless vote lacking Constitutional legitimacy, that legitimacy subsequently being proven, and a second vote being required, just as Catalonia will need to do, if they ever manage to navigate the obstacles put in their way by the Spanish government.

      It isn’t right, but many National Constitutions are archaic and predate modern democracy, and nothing can be considered “clear cut” until it is recognised as the orthodox doctrine that is accepted by the International community. Obsolete and archaic protocols can remain obsolete and archaic until they are forgotten and cease to be.

      If our Constitutional Sovereignty is indeed as strong as we believe, then for the love of God, let us present our argument to the global community and compel them to recognise that Scotland is a Nation, and a sovereign Nation at that, and sovereign whether we are in the United Kingdom or out of it.

      If Westminster cannot dispute the Claim of Right, then let us hold Europe and the wider world to the same benchmark of recognition. Why would we NOT do this Robert? It is profoundly disconcerting to leave such important issues untested while we put all our eggs in one basket for an Indy Referendum when we KNOW the last Referendum was compromised, and we still have an electorate indoctrinated and misinformed by the same State monopolised propaganda and orchestrated narrative. Where is the sense in this???

      Tell me Robert, say, just for the moment there was no SNP, no devolved Government, but just a congregation of Scottish “rebels” disgruntled by this Union, with all your knowledge on Scotland’s history and Constitution, tell me when, where, and how you would implement this knowledge to greatest effect? What would you, Mr Robert Peffers, actually do?

      Don’t you feel the least bit aggrieved that the SNP is so cavalier in its respect for Scotland’s ancient Constitution? Wouldn’t you school them to know the truth about Scotland’s subordination?

      I’ll be frank Robert, I was gutted to lose in 2014, but in YES we had momentum, a grassroots appetite to keep fighting for justice, and a joyous camaraderie that made every day feel like you were with friends on Hogmanay. Yes, we lost, but even so, Scotland felt like it would be thoroughly ungovernable by this corrupt BritNat Establishment that cheats us every way it can, and Indy would be the only solution. But then we simply “stopped”, and no word of a lie, I don’t think we have taken a single step forward in any humble respect ever since. We haven’t progressed an inch. Even the 53 MPs we sent to Westminster seemed somehow stilted and unsure what to do next. But these last three years of wait and see indecision has throttled the life and vitality out of our side. Don’t you sense it?

      It’s not the Tories who need to be having a Leadership election, it’s us. And no, not to be rid of Nicola, but to have a purposeful and constructive leadership debate to articulate a plan and a direction that the YES contingent in Scotland can get right behind just like we did in 2014, only this time we win.

      Where the fk are we going with Irish fishing disputes and Self ID Trans whateverthefuck it is? Why must act on this “stuff”, yet be so utterly mesmerised by Brexit? Wishart wants to be Speaker?? Joanna Cherry charges up to the ECJ and defeats the beast in Whitehall, YESSSS! Go Joanna!! …and then stops… suddenly we’re fighting to stop the Brexit that was about to reignite the fires of freedom. “Wh,…What are we doing???”

      People are in despair Robert. They are losing heart. How do you grab a Party by the lapels and shake some sense into it, yet do no damage to it? Strikes me that’s our immediate conundrum.

    286. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ever wondered what happens if you combine feminist jurisprudence with constitutional legal theory? Sorry, no open text to this one.

      Challenges and opportunities of gender equality litigation in Nepal

      Abstract

      The constitutionalization of an enforceable right to equality opens novel avenues to pursue gender equality claims and presents a new set of challenges for feminist activists. This article analyzes Nepal’s constitutional litigation for alleged breaches of the right to equality with respect to gender from the re-democratization of 1990 until the promulgation of the current constitution in September 2015.

      It makes one central argument: Nepal’s Supreme Court has played a pivotal role in advancing the rights of Nepali women by crafting – in an incremental way – a nuanced, contextually sensitive, constitutional meaning of gender equality. In this respect, gender equality jurisprudence has been central to the judicial construction of Nepal’s constitutional identity. Nepal’s extensive experience of gender equality litigation offers key comparative lessons—especially for deeply divided societies—on the accommodation of demands for social inclusion and the construction of social identities by constitutional means.

      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article-abstract/16/2/527/5036481?redirectedFrom=fulltext

    287. Terry callachan says:

      There are a great many people commenting here on wings about gender self I.D
      Most appear to be unaware that people have been able to gender self I.D since 2004
      Yes that’s right since 2004

      Since 2004 people who many on here are calling “women with penises” have been able to gender self I.D as a woman since 2004 which includes presenting themselves as a woman on their driving license their passport at their place of employment etc etc etc the only thing that requires detailed scrutiny is getting your birth certificate changed to show a changed gender.

      So many on here are complaining about the Scottish government introducing things that were actually introduced by the UK govt in the 2004 gender recognition act.

      And now because people are blaming the Scottish govt for something the UK govt introduced 15 years ago we actually see someone here on wings saying they have resigned their membership of the SNP

      The Scottish government want to tighten the rules and improve the way the rules about gender recognition are applied but a short while back the herald newspaper and the Scotsman newspaper wrote a story demonising the SNP making out it was the SNP that introduced this legislation when in fact it was the Westminster govt in 2004

      The Westminster govt in their defence had no choice because the EU courts observed that the rights of some people were being ignored so directives were issued forcing governments to observe the human rights act properly in this matter and so the UK government introduced the 2004 gender recognition act

      Now we have the Scottish government doing a consultation with many groups and people not just in Scotland but across the world to try and establish best practices
      The Scottish government have not even published their findings yet but we see here on wings many people jumping to conclusions and making mistaken comments about the present position in Scotland relating to gender ID

      Patience is needed
      Let’s wait and see what the consultation proposes
      And remember , even if nothing changes people in UK will still be able to change their gender on their driving license and passport and present themselves as a different gender at work and anywhere else they care to do so in and the gender recognition act 2004 allows that

    288. Joe says:

      @Patrick Roden 3:45 PM

      Patrick. I cant stand the SNP and I cant stand Sturgeon. To me they are simply pushing the same unpopular stances we see rolling out across the English speaking world and in Europe. They are not nationalists. They are globalists and their unwavering support of anything EU is another proof of that. They are pushing this post modernist agenda in the guise of Scottish independence.

      But the independence movement is more than the SNP. Its more than nonsense neomarxists and their brainwashed indoctrination.

      The Scottish independence movement needs people who DONT buy the new SNP BS and rejects the leftist authoritarians that they clearly are.

      The fact that this sickens you makes you more valuable to Scottish independence than the frothing, mindless ‘social justice’ types who cant muster a single original and non-contradictory thought in their heads.

      Look for this: Youtube 2017/02/25: Jordan Peterson: Postmodernism: How and why it must be fought

    289. Fireproofjim says:

      I feel strongly against this self ID nonsense. I don’t mind if a man calls himself Maisie and wears a dress but he is still a man in a dress. I have sympathy for those who feel so strongly about it that they undergo surgery or hormone treatment, but simply saying you are a woman doesn’t make it so.
      The proposed legislation is a nonsense at this critical time. Can you imagine what the Daily Mail will say about it?
      I have emailed info [at] snp [dot] org with my concerns and suggest that we all do the same to express our alarm.

    290. Essexexile says:

      Cubby@11.20am
      Yes, I like to form all of my opinions on world matters after watching dramatised TV shows loosely based on the facts.

      And you’re always banging on about the controlling Scottish MSM. Lol!

    291. Bob Mack says:

      @Terry Callachan,

      May I suggest you actually look up the rights that women will be losing rather than what the Trans lobby will be gaining. They are significant for a group who have had to fight to even get the vote in 1920.

      There is a significant loss to women

    292. Robert Peffers says:

      @Essexexile says: 14 June, 2019 at 8:03 pm:


      This issue can’t be explained away or made a bit more fluffy. It is a fundamental erosion of women’s rights.”

      What erosion might that be, Essexexile?

      Try as a might I just cannot find such a policy mentioned on the Holyrood Parliament Website. Could you indicate exactly what this policy is?

      ” … People who seek to gain ‘personal gratification’ from being in a female only space are being helped by this policy.”

      See! There it is again but no one is indicating what this policy is.

      ” … It’s not about whether a physical attack or injury occurs in a changing room, it is the thought that anybody is welcome in there with you. Predatory individuals will seek out places where they can be closest to their targets. The SNP are literally opening the door for them.”

      Please I’m asking nicely for which SNP policy you are talking about – I just cannot find such a policy mentioned on the Holyrood Parliament website. Now I know that the parliament website doesn’t deal in what political party policy is but only actual proposals and bills that parliament deals with but the only thing I can find is mention that the SNP SG is proposing to review the Westminster legislation. I might be wrong but doesn’t that mean the SG is proposing that parliament looks at revising something they find unsatisfactory in the Westminster bill or act?

      ” … Unfortunately, the SNP have decided it’s up to them to decide how safe women are and it’s not up for debate, despite less than 20% of Scots agreeing with them.”

      But if I’m not mistaken it is up for debate. All I can find on the Holyrood website is a committee statement that they want a review of the Westminster thingy.

      Now again I could be wrong but how can the SNP, (a political party), change any legislation? political parties cannot make or change laws. Only governments can do that and that is not just the party in power but all other parties by a vote.

      ” … That, from the party that is trying to sell the idea that Scotland is being taken out of the EU against it’s will.
      See the problem? “

      Well no actually I cannot see the problem as I’ve just been explaining to you. How can a political party change or make laws when only a vote of the entire parliament can do so and then only after it is debated and any proposed amendments also debated and voted upon?

      Seems to me there is something rather sinister going on over this issue but, as I say, I could be wrong or perhaps the Holyrood website has just forgotten to publish the facts.

    293. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some detail on applied modern constitutional theory. I wish I was on the big bucks that Scotland’s judiciary are on. That might afford me the luxury of being ambivalent about Scotland’s constitutional future. Probably not though as I’m a bit of an ethical rationalist, as well as a critical realist.

      PUBLIC INTEREST LITIGATION & WOMEN’S RIGHTS IN SOUTH ASIA 2

      Abstract

      As a complex, diverse and dynamic region with diverging, constantly changing constitutional and jurisprudential contexts as well as lasting legacies of patriarchy, South Asia’s traditions of public interest litigation are one of the most well-studied institutions by Western audiences due to their contradictory progressive and innovative nature. Particularly in India, where public interest litigation gives ordinary citizens extraordinary access to the highest courts of justice, questions have been raised as to the effectiveness of public interest litigation as a tool to address gender disparities across the region.

      Although Supreme Court justices have been a key ally in eliminating legal barriers to gender discrimination, the structure of the courts still reflect the patriarchal norms that plague society. Furthermore, a literature and case study review of gender-based litigation from India and Nepal reveals that legalistic gains are insufficient to meaningfully change the status of women relative to men in these countries. Without enforcement and policy change in legislative institutions, women still lack systemic power to change the socioeconomic barriers to equality.

      Key words: Nepal, India, Public Interest Litigation, Law, International Law, Comparative Law, Women’s Rights, Reproductive Rights, Gender Equality, Patriarchy.

      https://dc.ewu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=srcw_2019

    294. Petra says:

      @ Capella says at 4:58 pm …. ”The time to resign is when they actually introduce and pass Self ID legislation and/or fail to protect women’s safe spaces. Now is the time to let them know what you will do IF they introduce Self ID and/or fail to protect women’s safe spaces. It would be useful to know who is promoting this move and why. The Greens are committed to pushing this agenda and Ross Greer seems particularly angry with Joan McAlpine for not obeying his demand for changes to the Census 21 to allow trans men to self ID as a third sex (which, of course doesn’t exist). So I think it is important to support Joan McAlpine and her colleagues who refuse to drink the kool aid.”

      Well said Capella. We don’t seem to know enough about the ins and outs of this, for example are Westminster and Holyrood having to abide by UN rulings? What part does the EU play in this? I’m sure that the EU put pressure on the Irish Republic to speed things up and of course they (RoI) are years ahead of us. Is this something that has to be dealt with if we want to remain / become EU members? What are the parties at Holyrood, other than the SNP, saying about this? Is Nicola Sturgeon being pressurised to get on with it? If so, by whom? And of course just like the Offensive Behaviour in Football Act (OBFA) it could be repealed even if it does go ahead.

      I agree with you that we should send an email off to our MSPs to let them know exactly how we feel. We could also think of contacting Ross Greer to request more information in relation to this subject, but as someone said earlier let’s keep our eye on the ball. We’re close to achieving our aim of getting our Independence and with Independence, we the people will have more say: And without it Self ID legislation will be the LEAST of our worries. It’ll be used by the Unionists of course to undermine our cause and by the looks of it on here, it seems to be working.

    295. Terry callachan says:

      To bob Mack ..your post of 9.13pm

      Hi
      I will be front line if women’s rights are lost or degraded by reforms to the gender recognition act 2004.

      I say let’s wait and see what the Scottish government proposals are.
      Their final proposals have yet to be published.

      Here is information about the gender recognition act 2004 as it stands at present its worth reading because it shows just how much of what people are objecting to are things that are already allowed.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      The policy is the reform of the Gender Recognition Act, specifically to allow the unsupervised self-identification of sex. As changing sex is physically impossible, this undermines the potential for rational jurisprudence. This reform represents the supremacy of patriarchy over rationality. Patriarchy hurts the poor, both male and female, and destroys the planet.

    297. Dr Jim says:

      Every anti SNP moaner in the country getting a chance to get in on the act, or claiming to resign membership over something the SNP are managing not doing and the other side no doubt is loving everybody who falls for it

      The Tories can actually kill people with their policies, starve them to death, impoverish them to the point of suicide but that’s OK, not even counting the child abuse

      The Labour mob can’t control their anti Jewishness bigotry for losing control of their anti Muslim side apart from their complete abrogation of duty as a political party and they’re anti Scottish

      Liberal Democrats lie and lie with impunity and don’t give a toss what they say to anybody as long as they get a coalition with somebody, anybody

      But let’s allow the detractors away with accusing the SNP of introducing something they didn’t, and they’re only trying to manage the situation, but no let’s allow all the usual suspects to make pronouncements about only using the SNP for Independence then dumping them so they can vote for one of those previous parties all over again

      If I were Nicola Sturgeon I might just not bother with Independence at all seeing as how fickle the so called supporters of it are, I mean after all if she wanted she could be working at the UN or the EU if she wanted and anytime she wanted

      But no she’s staying here to fight for folk who want her gone as soon as she’s done her best for them, I for one wouldn’t blame her if she did go and you know what those same people would complain all over again that she let them and her country down

      I think there are a great deal of people trying very hard to let the FM down, well go for it and when (if) you succeed I’m sure you’ll be awash with happiness at where Scotland ends up because it definitely won’t be with Independence

      Because whoyaah gonna call?

    298. Pete says:

      I think what’s happening here is that politicians as a breed (I include all political parties)tend to buy in to all the trendy metropolitan elite views whereas the electorate are far more socially conservative (belief in family structure, maw paw and the bairns, institutions, churches, etc.)
      There seem to be a higher proportion of gays and minorities within the higher echelons of political parties than in the population as a whole.
      People who I mix with are much more old fashioned and conservative in their views than even what you find here on WOS.
      Very happy that some are starting to see the light!

    299. Joe says:

      Oh yes.

      It it really handy that the 1 man who could rally people to a sensible independence party is now bogged down with criminal proceedings from #metoo inspired accusations.

      Funny that.

    300. Essexexile says:

      @Robert Offers
      Not a time for pedantry Robert. This issue is steaming towards a crash with an explosion of ‘That’s the female vote fucked for indy then’ being heard 500 miles away.
      Fingers in ears and la la la if you like. Your choice.
      I must say, having flitted between WoS main site and the Rev’s Twitter feed for the last few hours, the difference in stance over the self ID debate is truly startling.
      On Twitter, people are right on the pulse and are horribly aware of how this is going to play out.
      While here it seems to be a handful of confused old men, showing their age and looking out of date.
      Like Dads at a disco.

    301. Petra says:

      @ Joe says at 9:01 pm … ”Patrick. I cant stand the SNP and I cant stand Sturgeon.”

      Joe you say that you want Scotland to be an Independent country, but not in the EU. Any chance of letting me in on your secret and that is who exactly do you / will you vote for taking into account that the Greens want to remain in the EU too?

    302. Robert Peffers says:

      @Essexexile says: 14 June, 2019 at 8:32 pm:

      “SNP will have any Tom, Dick or Harriet walking into a female changing room as long as they claim to be a woman.”

      Could you please indicate where I can find this information where the SNP say this, Essexexile, (remember the SNP are a political party and the only way that SNP policy can be made or changed is by delegates at national conference)?

      ” … The policy needs revising quickly and fundamentally before it sees the light of day”.

      It is not SNP policy Essexexile and it is not yet time for the next national conference.

      Now here’s another thing, It cannot be the Scottish Government’s policy either for Nicola Sturgeon cannot make policy on the hoof – only delegates sent to national conference can make, drop or change party policy.

      Furthermore Nicola cannot change SG policy, like every other MSP she can only propose a motion for parliament to debate and vote upon. Until now I have stayed out of this particular topic on Wings as I know nothing much about it.

      I did have a friend who unfortunately took their own life due to it being impossible for the medical profession to decide what sex that person was and the person themselves couldn’t know. That though had nothing much to do with self declaration and possible legality of doing so.

      I believe there are large quantities of bullshit being flung around about this entire subject by people who know even less than I do.

    303. CameronB Brodie says:

      What I want to know is why the civil service proceed on the basis the “”SEX” is undefined in law, when designing the public consultation. That is the source of this mess. The civil service appears to have been following best practice up until that point in time. What changed their opinion and introduce bad science into the policy development process?

      The Theory and Practice of
      Women’s Access to Justice Programming

      https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/PractitionerToolkit/WA2J_Module1.pdf

    304. Joe says:

      @ Petra

      Until recently it would be SNP, even though ive hated them for a while.

      No idea now to be honest. Im hoping a sensible pro indy party will come forward. Or the current SNP leadership will get the boot.

      Its bleak from where I sit. Except that im happy to see so many Scots making sensible objections to the kind of nonsense we are seeing.

    305. CameronB Brodie says:

      We all die exactly the same sex we a born as. To most of us, is pretty obvious which sex we are. That is not to say that sex defines who we are or what we can become. We might chose to live as the opposite sex but our self-bound reality will only be able to imitate, at best. A performance of stereotypes, in a way.

    306. Capella says:

      @ Petra – a link to the EU guide to Trans Rights. I think it might be you who posted it up thread. It just directs member states to safeguard trans rights in employment, goods and services, victim rights etc. It’s up to each state to legislate or amend law to comply.

      Nobody could object to trans people being protected from discrimination. But in order for women to be protected the definition of sex based rights, which is what affects women, has to be safeguarded. That’s what Ross Greer, and the Green Party, seem to object to. They don’t accept that sex is binary. They think it is a spectrum, which is nonsense. Biology really does exist.

      https://tgeu.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/TGEUs-Activists-Guide-on-Trans-Peoples-Rights-under-EU-Law.pdf

    307. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim at 9:28pm …

      Excellent post Dr Jim. It’s also extremely disappointing to see that many people on this site seem to think that Nicola Sturgeon plucked this Self ID concept out of nowhere, when they should be checking out the UN/EU stance on this issue over MANY years.

      And of course it’s a fine excuse for some pretendy, wee Independence supporters to bellyache on here about their grave concerns when in fact they don’t give Jacksh*t about it and are actually rubbing their hands in glee.

    308. Hamish100 says:

      Robert Peffers tried to see on the snp issues re equality diversity etc. Nothing. Won’t let me in. Maybe it’s being rewritten?
      A simple statement explaining what is being proposed or not would allow us to get to bed a little bit earlier tonight!!

    309. Cubby says:

      Dr Doom you would have fitted in well in the Soviet Union. You form your opinions based on the Britnat rule book for phoney independence supporters. You Britnat plonker.

      Dr Doom the man who is always wanting to avoid me then posts nonsense about one of my posts. Why is that then Dr Doom. One minute you are begging me to leave you alone then you post crap about one of my posts. Why is that Dr Doom?

      Is Dr Doom building his own nuclear power station in Essex land? We’re doomed I tell you doomed if Dr Doom is anywhere near the nuclear industry.

    310. mike cassidy says:

      Terry Callachan.

      They are women with penises.

      That is 100% accurate.

      Men who self-id as women are women with penises by definition.

    311. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’d be looking to see who are the biggest supporters for this proposed reform, within the SNP. And who ordered the civil service to deviate from best practice, when designing the consultation?

    312. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@9.28pm

      Good post. IMO most of the people you refer to are phoney independence supporters. Britnat concern trolls. Pathetic creatures.

    313. Cubby says:

      Something positive. Independence march tomorrow in Oban. AUOB.

      Most of the phoney independence supporters who post on Wings will probably have to look at a map to see where Oban is.

    314. mr thms says:

      The Talking-up Scotland blog could do with more comments. I think it’s great!

    315. Essexexile says:

      Evening Cubby.
      Glad you’ve had the time to pop in. I expect you’re busy maybe watching Jaws which will lead you to believe that all sharks are mindless man-eaters.
      Or maybe, Pearl Harbour? So you’ll firmly believe that Ben Affleck retaliated with an immediate attack on the Japanese mainland.
      Hint: Anybody who encourages others to develop their opinion on future energy production on a Trump era, US dramatised version of a Soviet nuclear disaster should have their judgement ridiculed.

    316. ahundredthidiot says:

      Don’t the nutters realise that their liberal thinking will bring out the worst in everyone. Bygones will no longer be bygones. People will respond by becoming more and more conservative.

      I will support the SNP and Independence until I think Free Speech is in jeopardy (if, for example, they legislate for Compelled Speech) – then I will be out and my idea of our Countries future with it.

      Because if we lose our way, how are we any different to the UK? We’d just be swapping one set of loonies for another.

      Up until then though – eyes on the prize!

    317. Petra says:

      @ Joe says at 9:48 pm – ”Petra – Until recently it would be SNP, even though ive hated them for a while. No idea now to be honest. Im hoping a sensible pro indy party will come forward. Or the current SNP leadership will get the boot. Its bleak from where I sit. Except that im happy to see so many Scots making sensible objections to the kind of nonsense we are seeing.”

      Well Joe like them or not, without them / Nicola Sturgeon, the future is not just looking bleak from where I’m sitting, it’s looking like hell on earth. Nicola Sturgeon to get the boot and be replaced by whom? Someone else who wants to remain in the EU and has to deal with issues such as Self ID? A sensible pro indy party to come forward at this time Joe? Now you know that’s not going to happen so I wonder why on earth you came up with that idea? It’s pie in the sky, to say the least, imo.

      ………………………..

      @ Capella says at 9:58 pm .. ”Petra – a link to the EU guide to Trans Rights. I think it might be you who posted it up thread. It just directs member states to safeguard trans rights in employment, goods and services, victim rights etc. It’s up to each state to legislate or amend law to comply. Nobody could object to trans people being protected from discrimination. But in order for women to be protected the definition of sex based rights, which is what affects women, has to be safeguarded. That’s what Ross Greer, and the Green Party, seem to object to. They don’t accept that sex is binary. They think it is a spectrum, which is nonsense. Biology really does exist.

      https://tgeu.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/TGEUs-Activists-Guide-on-Trans-Peoples-Rights-under-EU-Law.pdf

      Yeah I posted that Capella because I reckoned that there were some snippets of interest for us, especially nearer the end. No time for me to pick them out now.

      ”They (Greens) don’t accept that sex is binary. They think it is a spectrum, which is nonsense. Biology really does exist.”

      I haven’t been following the Greens on this issue Capella, so I don’t have a clue. I noticed you mentioned some kind of dispute earlier between Greer and MacAlpine. Is she digging her heels in, rightly, about sex being binary? I posted a video of a Holyrood Committee meeting chaired by Joan MacAlpine recently whereby individuals such as Professor Freedman made it clear that sex IS binary. Where on earth are the Greens coming from? ”Why” might be more to the point.

    318. Joe says:

      @Petra 10:01

      Been a Scottish independence supporter my entire life.

      Im not rubbing my hands in glee. The main reason being is: I saw this coming. Im not a wizard. I just look at the ‘progressive’ left all over the English speaking world and its clear. Bill C16 in Canada for instance.

      The scary part – it gets much worse than this self ID business if people let it. Parents will have their kids taken from them and be consider child abusers because they think their boy is a boy and not a girl.

      I will not support a party that pushes this fake ‘progressive’ doctrine for any reason. That includes ‘independence’. I use quotations because the current SNP leadership have never been about independence and I think this is starting to become clear.

      ‘Oh so you don’t like this large hairy ‘woman’ with a d**k entering your toilets and standing close to you?’ that’s Hate Speech/Transphobia.

      ‘Oh so you dont agree that just about anybody in the world can come to your country and receive the full benefits of a native at the cost of public debt/tax payers?’ that’s Racism.

      ‘Oh so you dont want backwards political supremacist religions (religions funded by oil rich nations with medieval social systems) having a say in the legal system and politics of your country?’ that’s Bigotry.

      ‘Oh so you think that men can be vulnerable also and that not every living (white) man now is responsible for the crap that went on in the past?’ that’s Misogyny

      Honestly, that’s where we are at and in more places than Scotland. Id rather cut off my fkng arm than vote for a ‘progressive’ politician. As for the ‘progressive’ academics that are getting public funds to push this crap in universites – they are more dangerous than the politicians in the long run.

      Just watch.

    319. ahundredthidiot says:

      Cubby @10:14

      For me, you lose your argument when you use the T word.

    320. Ian mhor says:

      Huh, whaur Indy?
      I’m neither male nor female.
      I can’t be fucked to be honest.

    321. Cubby says:

      Dr Doom

      I know that you are a shit stirring Britnat phoney independence supporter and I don’t need any TV or any other media to tell me that.

      Got shares in the nuclear industry have you Britnat tosser? Or just another Britnat lackey who is told what to post?

      Every time you come on Wings you post DOOM laden nonsense. The SNP is DOOMED. Scottish independence is DOOMED. Every time. Must be bloody awful living in Britland – you’re all doomed.

      The UK, just like the Soviet Union, prefer lies, deceit and misrepresentation – same as you. You deserve no respect and you won’t get it from me – tosser from Essex.

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 14 June, 2019 at 8:34 pm

      … Yes Robert, I agree with you. No dissent… But…. take the Brexit negotiations between Westminster and Michel Barnier with the preposterous exclusion of Scotland from the negotiations. If ever there was greater cause and due responsibility to cite Scotland’s Constitutional status, surely that was an opportunity missed.”

      Well no, Breeks, I think you are missing a point or two there.

      Yes the EU’s hands were tied but that was not the point. First of all although we all know that Westminster is the de facto parliament of England it isn’t legally the parliament of England. It is legally the parliament of the two partner United Kingdom and the EU will not intervene as long as the United Kingdom is officially the United Kingdom member state of the EU.

      So the EU could not make anything about United Kingdom Government internal business. Westminster was certainly not going to mention it and Scotland was legally represented as a partner kingdom in the United Kingdom. There was no one thus to make a legal challenge.

      ” … Europe’s hands were tied, not just with Brexit, but YES2014, because the recognised sovereignty which has jurisdiction over Scotland isn’t Scottish Sovereignty but Westminster Parliamentary Sovereignty.”

      Exactly right and as I’ve harped on about for years until there is a majority of Scots claiming their sovereign rights that’s how it will stay – except after Westminster is no longer an EU member state.

      ” … If Scotland holds a referendum, then Westminster can cite Parliamentary Sovereignty and declare the vote unconstitutional and unlawful, and Scotland will find itself out in the corridor once again just like it was for Brexit.”

      Well no Scotland won’t for Westminster has conceded the Scottish Claim of Right in a court of law. So we are back to where we always have been – needing a majority of the People of Scotland declaring the union is over. That’s the nub – it isn’t a Scottish government, nor is it a majority of Westminster MPs that is required it is a majority of the legally sovereign people and an organisation to take their decision up and declare the union is over on their behalf.

      ” … If we hold a referendum in Scotland, we will have to prove it’s sovereign legitimacy,”

      Yes but we do that by declaring the Union is over and cite the fact that Westminster accepted the Claim of Right in court. We can also back that up by quoting from Hansard that several Westminster Government ministers have stated international law in parliament that in an international treaty the signatories have legal right to end the treaty at will.

      ” … and yes, in a just world we can certainly do that, but my whole argument is that we establish that sovereign legitimacy first, and secure its International Recognition BEFORE we ever hold the vote to end the Union.”

      Come on, Breeks, we have already established our sovereign right when Westminster conceded the Claim of Right in the Supreme Court. The Claim of Right is sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      We have long established our claim of right, it has never been legally challenged by England or Westminster but what we have not done is establish that a majority of those with that claim of right want to exercise it to end the union.

      No matter what the Westminster Government may claim they have always claimed that they have the Monarchy of England’s legal sovereignty but the Scottish monarchy never had sovereignty under Scots law and the English monarchy delegated theirs to the English parliament which has not existed since 30 April 1707. There is no legal parliament of England and it says so in Hansard report from 30 April 1707.

      Westminster just opened on 1 May 1707 band illegally assumed to be the continued parliament of England but Hansard shows it sat and put itself into permanent recession and there are no records it ever came back out of recession. In any case you cannot come out of permanent recession or you would have been only prorogued. As was the old Scottish parliament that came out of that when it was reconvened by Winnie Ewing.

      The case is all there Breeks, all except the majority of the people of Scotland ending the union.

    323. Essexexile says:

      @ahundredthidiot
      Bloody hell! You’re brave pal.
      Opposing compelled speech on WoS.
      There’s plenty on here for whom any dissent against the rigid ultra nationalist mantra is literally akin to being on the opposing side.
      Lord only knows what these people would be like if they ever got anywhere near power. I should get out of here quick before anyone notices if I were you.
      PS if anyone stops you to check your papers are in order just start droning on about sovereignty. They’ll soon believe you and wave you through.

    324. Petra says:

      @ CameronB Brodie says at 10:13 pm …. ”I’d be looking to see who are the biggest supporters for this proposed reform, within the SNP. And who ordered the civil service to deviate from best practice, when designing the consultation?”

      What about us finding out who the ”biggest supporters” are at Holyrood, not just in relation to the SNP? I’m saying that, because this is NOT just about the SNP.

      ”And who ordered the civil service to deviate from best practice, when designing the consultation?”

      Do you have any evidence to support your comment, serious allegation, Cameron?

    325. Cubby says:

      Ahundrethidiot@10.34pm

      What argument? Arguing with whom? It was a statement. What word would you suggest I use? T for tossers?

    326. Famous15 says:

      I am nearly eighty and I have never knowingly met a trans person.

      I have seen two such persons on TV and felt no discomfort. I sense that there are painful episodes in the process of coming to peace with ones’ body.

      Much of the posturing I now see and hear on this subject is not empathy but utter anger and for what?

      I am suspicious and fear for those who struggle with this. If someone seeks to takes advantage of these matters should know that the law on all matters lewd and lascivious will not change.

    327. ahundredthidiot says:

      Famous15

      because the future is TEACHING kids at primary school that it is ‘normal’ to be a boy or a girl when they are biologically not.

      Maybe you are fortunate enough to have grand-kids – is that what you want?

      These people are ill and need our compassion and help, not us enabling and encouraging their mental illness.

    328. CameronB Brodie says:

      As pragmatism is grounded in moral reasoning, it offers a way for England to re-connect with natural law. The British constitution must align with international public law, if it is to be considered morally justified. This is unlikely to happen in my lifetime because of reasons, mostly Tory.

      Law for States: International Law, Constitutional Law, Public Law
      https://harvardlawreview.org/2009/05/law-for-states-international-law-constitutional-law-public-law/

      #DissolveTheUnion

    329. CameronB Brodie says:

      Petra
      Thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right, self-ID is supported by all parties.

      Capella provided a link on the “War on Women” thread, I think it was one of the new women’s groups in Scotland. They had uncovered the history of the consultation process, which suggested that up until a certain point, the civil service had been following best practice. Then they changed tack and agreed with trans-activists that “sex” is undefined in law, which is rubbish. Even I know that and I not an administrative lawyer.

    330. Essexexile says:

      @Cubby@10.38
      That’s some post matey.
      Got a good chance of appearing on the WoS personal abuse ‘Gold’ collectors disc. I won’t respond though.
      Anyway, as you’re hopelessly outgunned intellectually on here tonight perhaps it’s best you slip off to bed.
      You know what they say, never go to bed on an argument.
      Dobranoc przyjacielu!

    331. Bob Mack says:

      Isn’t it noticeable that we are all discussing the infringement of women’s rights, but nobody has raised the issue of mens rights. Why is that? It is because men have accepted the subjugation of women for eons, whilst partaking of the benefits of that subjugation.

      There is nothing in the law that discriminates against Trans folk just now. They have every right myself and my family enjoy.Why is extra change required?

      It appears to me that once again men are not happy to be merely regarded as a woman if that is how they perceive themselves. They want to now set the agenda for what women can be allowed to do and think from under the cloak of femininity.

      It is utterly outrageous.

      Amazons with beards

    332. boris says:

      The fiasco has been a well planned orchestration of events by the Tory Party, transferring the momentum of change away from government to the taxpayers, who will need to decide if they are content to subsidize, (through their annual subscription), the continuance of free licences to pensioners over the age of 75. Likely annual fee in excess of £200.

      Meantime BBC management are beavering away preparing the Corporation for a backlash from the taxpayers, who, it is expected will demand a major restructuring of the Corporation meeting the challenges of Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/06/14/scottish-old-age-pensioners-detested-by-the-torys-a-bane-to-the-bbc-so-many-with-the-power-to-do-so-much-but-who-achieve-so-little/

    333. Joe says:

      @Bob Mack

      The problem Bob, is pushers of identity politics.

      You know, those cretins who treat others as if they are are merely the representative of their group associations and not as an autonomous individual.

      Like you just did.

      To heap the demands of the transgender lobby onto ‘men’ is quite a feat of utter ignorance. Thanks

    334. Bob Mack says:

      @Joe,

      Listen you moron. If a guy came to fit your carpet dressed in a frock, would you tell him your daughter was in the shower,but it was OK for him to go in because he identifies as a woman.

      Men subjugated women for centuries. They are still doing it or are you that stupid?
      Regards.

    335. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dan
      Thanks.

    336. wull says:

      When did the SNP define its policy on this issue? Or has it ever done so? Maybe I missed something, but I don’t remember any mention of any of this in any of their manifestos.

      Did the SNP manifesto for Holyrood set out this policy? Did its manifesto for the most recent Westminster election say anything at all about it? If the answer to both these questions is ‘nothing was said’, why is the SNP government at Holyrood introducing legislation about it.

      Maybe, of course, the SNP have a mandate for this from their Party’s own members. If so, I never heard about it … but then I am not a member of the SNP, or indeed of any other political party either. On the other hand, going by the reaction of uite a few of the posters here, who (so they say at least) do seem to be SNP members, they never heard of Party Conference adopting the proposed stand either.

      Yet I was always told that in the SNP agenda must come up from below, from at least one local branch, before it can be presented to the SNP Conference for its endorsement. And it can only become Party policy once that endorsement is given.

      Presuming that did never happened, and that the intended legislation was never announced as SNP policy in any manifesto, doesn’t that mean that the SNP have no mandate for doing what it seems to be hell bent on doing?

      And if the SNP government at Holyrood has no mandate from the people of Scotland (or even its own Party members) for pushing this largely unwanted legislation through, we have to ask once more the key question concerning who is sovereign in Scotland. Is the Scottish government sovereign in Scotland? Even to the extent that it can lord it over the rest of us willy nilly, imposing whatever it wants on the people of Scotland whenever or however it wishes, even if the vast majority of the people really don’t want it?

      Or are the people sovereign? Moreover to such an extent that they can block legislation of this kind, or even declare any attempt to impose it invalid?

      And with regard to the SNP’s own constitution, does it give the leadership of the Party the right to lord it over the membership?

      The proposed policy shift and legislation has an unreality about it. It seems to fly in the face not just of common sense but – and here is the crux of the matter – of scientific facts. Politicians can’t abolish biological facts by passing an Act of Parliament against them.

      If the parliament were to pass a law saying that the moon is made of cheese, and forbidding us to say otherwise, that won’t turn the moon into cheese. If a boy cannot in fact change himself into a girl simply by declaring he is now a girl (self-identification), or a girl likewise change herself into a boy – if no such biological change in fact takes place on account of such a declaration – what right have adults in authority, whether parents or teachers or governments to tell them the contrary. When they do so, are these adults not deceiving the children concerned? And in deceiving them in this way, could it not be argued that they are somehow abusing them?

      If I am right in my supposition that the SNP has no mandate either from its own Party members or from the Scottish people to introduce this ‘bampot legislation’, as most people in Scotland seem to consider it, we have to ask how and why it is happening.

      According to my memory – which I admit is not as good as it used to be – when Nicola first started talking in favour of ‘self-identification’ of this kind, she put it forward as her own personal opinion. Those of us who were uneasy with that opinion, or even opposed to it could, at that point, say ‘fair enough – she is entitled to her opinion; I don’t agree with her but she is only stating her point of view, not imposing it, so that’s OK with me’. All that changes, however, now that her personal opinion seems to have transmuted into the policy of both her Scottish government and her Party, without (it seems) undergoing any proper process to bring such a transmutation about. This puts us into completely new territory.

      Nicola has never quite been my favourite SNP politician, but I hope, for her own sake, that she does not push ahead with this legislation. If she does, I think it is likely to result in a serious challenge to her position as leader, maybe even sooner rather then later. Since this is liable to be divisive, it does not seem to be the best time for any such thing.

      I know she feels very strongly about this issue. Although I disagree with her on this, I can still respect her personal sincerity here. What I cannot understand is her timing, for it seems extremely inopportune to bring such a divisive and vote-losing issue at such a time.

      Has her political judgement somehow deserted her? Or is this issue even more important to her than the prize of independence? Or does she think she can take the pro-Indy vote for granted?

      As if we will all vote SNP anyway, no matter how unpopular her support for other issues might be.

      Another possibility might be that she is already feeling that her leadership position hangs on a shoogly peg, and this might push her to make sure she gets legislation that is personally very dear to her through Holyrood, before she is ousted. Such a scenario, I hasten to add, is pure speculation on my part, and I am not hoping for it. Because division of any kind, it seems to me, does the cause of independence no good whatsoever.

      I hope very much she stands back from the brink, withdraws 9or never enters) this proposed legislation, and galvanises everyone to concentrate simply on regaining Scotland’s status as an independent nation.

    337. Cubby says:

      Dr Doom says ” never go to bed on an argument” – not arguing with you. Phoney independence supporters like you do not get any respect.

      ” hopelessly outgunned intellectually….” the old English exceptionalism coming out again – hard to keep it hidden. Where did you say you lived in auld reekie? Chelmsford was it?

      Away back to your warehouse and fill some more shelves you intellectual giant. Amazon got a warehouse in Essex? Or is it Ikea?

    338. Gary45% says:

      A wee O/T
      A quick look at the 8 Labour pro brexiteers.
      “Friends of Israel”.
      Zionism is behind the whole sorry state the country is facing. (I said this a while back)
      Not to worry Zionist supporting Trump/Johnson/Caracture Farage, + Labour nobody’s will save the day.!!! aye right
      Which country do you wish to overthrow? follow the shyster.
      Simples.
      Oh Aye This is not Anti-Semitic.

    339. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      You’ve an exceedingly narrow perception of identity and its political significance. That not strange for a Tory, frankly.

    340. Capella says:

      @ Petra – here’s the link to the clip of Maggie Chapman arguing that biological sex isn’t binary and Joan McAlpine argues that it is. I originally posted this on the War on Women thread:

      https://twitter.com/ScotlandTonight/status/1131668625541214210

    341. geeo says:

      How did yet another thread end up on this topic?

      My money is on it being steered by a British Nationalist splitter hoping for division.

    342. Bob Mack says:

      @Geeo,

      My money is on SNP stupidity.

    343. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legal rationality is grounded in liberal science and moral reason. Allowing self-ID would undermine legal reason, as it refutes liberal science and is detached from moral reason. That alone should indicate self-ID is not in the public interest. Simples.

      Perfectionism and Moral Reasoning
      https://journals.openedition.org/ejpap/903

    344. CameronB Brodie says:

      I take it their are only property conveyors in the SNP hierarchy, apart from the obvious.

      Pragmatism, Law, and Morality
      https://journals.openedition.org/ejpap/903

    345. Dr Jim says:

      One other thing about this gender debate is that the majority of people have never even heard of it because it’s all taking place by those who shout the loudest and have their own agenda on Twitter, and if it’s in the newspapers those same majority of people avoid it because it’s boring to them and holds no interest for them

      Unfortunately for the users of this agenda it’s a tiny matter amongst a tiny minority and likely will fade away because the mainstream TV media don’t want it and they’ll very likely be told to make sure they under report it in favour of 3 legged dog saves owner stories

      I take out my 16 year old severely disabled granddaughter and if she needs to use a public toilet she can require me to assist her to get in but if I see what I think is a man in a frock or similar he/she won’t be going in after her, or if he/she is in already they’ll be leaving

      That’s my way of dealing with any problem like that and I don’t give a monkeys about anybody’s human rights wrongs or anything anybody wants to bleat about, others may use their telephones, that’s their right

      Indecent exposure is still against the law, nothing changes that law and it applies to everybody regardless of anything anybody cares to identify themselves as, so for the worriers, think about that law for a second and the use you can put it too in any situation

      I will

    346. Joe says:

      @Bob Mack

      Both genders were subjugated for centuries and did what they could within the limits they had.

      Its nonsense feminist rhetoric that you have swallowed to believe otherwise. Women have only had reliable birth control and modern sanitary facilities since the middle of the 20th century. You think that didnt play a part?

      You think that men, exclusively men, being plucked from there lives and thrown into the mincing machine of conflict at the threat of violence from the state is more evidence of male domination? What about the prison population? What about workplace deaths being 90% + male? What about higher suicide rate? What about shorter life expectancy? What about higher rate of homelessness? What about a more advanced age to retire? Oh right, more men occupy fortune 500 top positions and that’s ALL that counts right? Like life is some sort of buffet?

      Stop with the mindless virtue signalling and TRY to develop an original thought in your empty skull.

      Further, I can tell you now that most men (not empty headed progressive soyboys like some on here) would simply have rapists, women beaters and other threats to women executed or on a full lifetime prison sentence. But no, because thats not nice for the spineless liberal bullshitters who pretend to care about women, is it?

      Modern feminism opened the door to this transgender mess thats coming down at us by shouting down and alienating men for simply being MEN. We were all supposed to pretend that biological differences dont exist and any time women dont do as well as men its because of ‘biased societal norms’ or some such crap.

      So we see gender quotas. We see lies of the ‘gender paygap’ being pushed despite the obviously dishonest means of arriving at the conclusion. Boys now falling behind in education with an increasingly feminised environment. All the while with the under-current of us having the original sin of being male.

      Well, biology doesnt count now does it? Who is ignoring reality now? But whose fault is it? Oh thats right. Its men.

      We all have equal rights under the law. Thats enough. Anyone who thinks that isnt enough should go visit anywhere outside of the civilized world (you know that ‘white male patriarchy’ area) and get a wake up call. Oh, but that would be racist to consider that most societies outside of the west still see women as some sort of subordinate, right?

      Most Scottish men are decent, helpful, willing to consider their behavior and open to change. Most are painfully overly willing to help make women more comfortable at there own expense.

      Get a life and a few brain cells. For f**ks sake. Only crazy, low IQ, resentful, angry, unshaggable feminist bitches talk in such broad terms about men as you do. Not sure what your excuse is.

    347. Bob Mack says:

      @Joe,

      I’ll tell the WASPI women how lucky they have been then shall I ?

      Ps. You have a bigger mouth than brain buddy.

      I suspected you were an idiot, and you have just confirmed it.

    348. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      If you seriously refute that women have been historically subjugated because of their sex class, it suggests you are a misogynist. If women have not been in the need of legal protection from the effects of patriarchy, why do we have sex discrimination law?

      You’re a grade-A Tory trumpet. Why not provide some evidence to support your prejudice? I do. 😉

    349. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 20:34,
      Robert Peffers @ 22:38,

      Sorry, Breeks, but Peffers is right on this one. The background is already there, it just needs a majority of the people to validate it. Other countries will look for that first and foremost. They are just not going to get involved in some theoretical notion of our sovereignty before that. (And maybe not ever after that.) It’s not their business nor interest.

      The only thing we currently lack is a suitable opportunity to exercise our preference, and if need be we should make one.

      The whole point of a constitutional challenge, to my way of thinking, is that it be right there up front before those who matter: the people of Scotland (and to a secondary extent, the people of England and Wales also). And not as a sterile legalistic exercise, but as a means both of bringing about a greater realisation of their fundamental rights and – crucially – as a rallying point, a cause celebre, a means of breaking through the stifling media censorship, reaching out, and getting more people activated.

    350. Bob Mack says:

      @Cameron Brodie,

      Bang on. Either that or a trans.That’s how they look on women’s rights isn’t it?

    351. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 21:40, etc.

      There’s no point wasting space and effort debating with this “Joe” character because he’s possibly English but certainly living there, and he didn’t vote for indy in 2014 because he didn’t get to vote.

      Look how he switched from a Leaver line that was going nowhere to latch on to this self-ID business and push it instead. He’s here to divide and disrupt, nothing else.

      There’s no genuine supporter of indy that ever refers to our FM as “Sturgeon”, nor at any time has “hated” her. He’s a fake and that’s a giveaway if ever there was one.

    352. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bob Mack
      He’s already outed himself as having a similar social conservatism to Reluctant Nationalist, i.e. a bit of a racist. One might be t’other’s sock-puppet? 😉

    353. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 00:53,

      There’s nothing wrong per se with being a social conservative. They do form a substantial fraction of the population of Scotland, after all, and we want them to feel as comfortable with supporting indy as anyone else.

      (That’s surely Stu’s main point, not to wantonly scare such people off.)

      To my mind, the real question here is rather: is s/he actually a supporter of indy at all…?

    354. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      Absolutely correct, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with social conservatism. It is how you act on that conservatism. In fact, there are positive aspects to the “old fashioned personality”, though I can’t remember them now.

      I’m prickly with both Joe and RN because I don’t think their conservatism is inclusive. IMHO, they have both been selling cultural intolerance and welfare chauvinism (often a means of expressing (white) British nationalism in public). As such, I doubt they are actual supporters of Scotland’s best interests. Scotland needs immigration.

    355. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. “The Old-Fashioned Personality”. Here’s what the Tavistock were saying a good while back.

      The Old-Fashioned Personality

      Abstract

      It is noted that the authoritarian personality theory of Adorno et al. is now seldom referred to in race relations research and that the scale used to operationalize the theory (the Fscale) is a very poor measure of what it purports to measure (right-wing authoritarianism). The Fscale does have many correlates, however, and the work of Pflaum is referred to support the contention that the F scale in fact taps an old-fashioned orientation.

      A large correlational study by Kline and Cooper is reinterpreted in this light and it is shown that when pejorative assumptions are discarded, the old-fashioned person would appear to have many potentially admirable characteristics. The new understanding of what the F scale measures is also shown to be helpful in making sense of the findings from many other studies.
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/001872679004301004

    356. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Old-fashioned personality can be socially beneficial, though a need for cognitive closure is not helpful. Dangerous if accompanied by a high degree of social dominance orientation.

      A perspective on the study of social attitudes

      Abstract

      Argues that the comparative neglect of the cognitive component and social origins of social attitudes has produced serious inadequacies in social psychology and limited its social relevance. Discusses critically the question of how far social change can be brought about by changing attitudes. The argument is exemplified with reference to the literature on authoritarianism and recent British research on racial prejudice and mass communication. Concludes that the psychology of social attitudes needs to take greater account of the way the production and communication of culture are related to social structure and change.

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ejsp.2420070107

    357. Liam says:

      Cubby said:
      14 June, 2019 at 10:16 pm

      Something positive. Independence march tomorrow in Oban. AUOB.

      Most of the phoney independence supporters who post on Wings will probably have to look at a map to see where Oban is.

      I’m gutted I can’t go. It’s just down the road from me and I’m fecking working. The first Saturday I’ve had to work for months.

    358. Balaaargh says:

      That’s not social conservatism talking on here tonight, that’s red pill, incel, MRA language.

    359. Petra says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 12:52 am ….”Petra – There’s no point wasting space and effort debating with this “Joe” character because he’s possibly English but certainly living there, and he didn’t vote for indy in 2014 because he didn’t get to vote. Look how he switched from a Leaver line that was going nowhere to latch on to this self-ID business and push it instead. He’s here to divide and disrupt, nothing else. There’s no genuine supporter of indy that ever refers to our FM as “Sturgeon”, nor at any time has “hated” her. He’s a fake and that’s a giveaway if ever there was one.”

      I know that he’s a fake RJS. I just wanted to, hopefully, ”out” him further. A fake? Just like any number of others on here (MANY NOW) who run Nicola Sturgeon down to the ground constantly. To be honest I can’t understand why some of these people are allowed to post on here: a Scottish Independence site. I have been booted off of one site (plus Facebook, Twitter and newspapers) after another over the last 9 years as soon as I’ve spoken out of turn, as the Unionist see it. No nastiness, swearing or whatever. Just stating the facts and yet these charlatans are allowed to use this site to promote their Unionist agenda to around 300,000 people. I don’t get it.

    360. mr thms says:

      #Famous15 @ 10:43 pm

      Wise words. Thanks for posting.

    361. Breeks says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      15 June, 2019 at 12:39 am
      Breeks @ 20:34,
      Robert Peffers @ 22:38,

      Sorry, Breeks, but Peffers is right on this one. The background is already there, it just needs a majority of the people to validate it. Other countries will look for that first and foremost. They are just not going to get involved in some theoretical notion of our sovereignty before that. (And maybe not ever after that.) It’s not their business nor interest….

      To end the Union, arguably, we need a democratic majority. (I say arguably, because I don’t believe that’s the only way we can do it), But ending the Union, and being a sovereign Nation are not the same thing. If the EU were to recognise Scotland’s Claim of Right in the way Westminster does, Brexit contrary to the will of the Scottish people would be a usurpation of Sovereignty and unlawful.

      Scotland has created an irreconcilable paradox. We have a sovereign mandate to stay in the UK and a sovereign mandate to reject Brexit.

      The first mandate is moot… the UK isn’t seeking to overrule our sovereign edict.

      The second mandate is different. The will of Westminster is different to the will of Scotland, and thus to get its way it must overrule Scotland but thanks the point! It has no authority to overrule the will of our sovereign people.

      If we the sovereign people have created a dichotomy, it is only us who can arbitrate on the paradox and choose which sovereign edict stands and which falls.

      Have Europe respect Scotland’s Claim of Right, then challenge both Westminster and Europe to produce the origin point of the faux Sovereignty which overrules Scotland’s democratically Sovereign will to remain. Brexit cannot negotiate the crossroads where Scotland’s will to stay in the UK is equal in potency but diametrically incompatible with Scotland’s will to stay in Europe. ONLY the sovereign can decide.

      We may or may not need a vote to kill off the UK, but the law and our constitution can paralyse the Union and suspend Scotland’s Brexit into stasis indefinitely. Were that to happen, I don’t see the UK Union surviving the contortion. It will break, but not by Scotland’s hand. It is the UK acting ultra vires, in exceeding its authority, that brings the Union to collapse.

    362. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT was at a wee concert yesterday celebrating Pete Seeger’s 100th, a great night of his story and songs.

      Much of his story was relevant to Scotland , much of his story was relevant to today’s USA and UK.

      The concert ended with ‘Freedom come a ye’ which he learned to sing in Scots as opposed to a sanitised mid atlantic version.

      Thoroughly enjoyed by all who attended – and we all seemed to know most of the words to the songs, has something to do with age methinks!

    363. Joe says:

      @Petra et al

      Of course im not who I say I am. Obviously im a sock puppet, unionist etc.

      Why? Because I dont fall into the kind low grade binary thinking that permeates this comment section. One way or another.

      Thanks for ‘outing’ me. Now try and develop an original thought for once in your life. Its refreshing and you will like it.

    364. Joe says:

      Addendum:

      I have friends who are lifelong SNP members and Scottish nationalists who ‘cant be arsed’ with the comments on this site because of the kind of low grade thinking that is on display now.

      Scottish nationalists who like WOS AVOID this comments section. Not because of ‘unionist’ trolls. But because of frothing single-thought idiots on the independence side of things.

      Let that sink in. Sorry, got to go ive got tea and cucumber sandwiches to eat on the lawn while watching the county cricket team. Haw Haw! Tallyho! F**kwits.

    365. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 10:04,

      Yes, it’s the analogue of the racists who claim “But I have friends who are black”.

      And if this site and its denizens offend you so greatly, why do you keep coming back…?

      (Now it’s scare stories in the new thread. You are so, so obvious.)

    366. Nana says:

      Having trouble posting, will try again tomorrow as I’ve no time right now.

      Oban march
      https://livestream.com/independencelive

    367. cassandra says:

      Petra and all the others looking to cleanse BTL of anything off message. How do you feel about Rev Stu’s comments about Nicola Sturgeon on his Twitter account? Is he not a real independence supporter, then?

      This cult of the personality is making Independence so difficult to achieve because of zealots who cannot see any criticism of the current leader of the SNP as anything other than heresy.

      Say I come here as a person who has changed their mind about Indy from No to maybe Yes but finds the current incarnation of the SNP not to my liking, am I not allowed to post? Is there a language and purity test to see if I am ‘real’?

      The thing is Indy supporters come in all varieties, some want Indy in the EU, some want Indy and Brexit, some want Indy and ‘hate’ the SNP , some ‘hate’ the Greens, some ‘hate’ both. There is no one size fits all, the way the dominant posters here would imagine. They appear to have a template where boxes are ticked and a score is given as to the integrity of a poster. It is not enough to say you want Indy, you must say it the way Petra etc wants you to.

      No ‘real’ Indy supporter would… well actually they would and they do, often on the doorstep they say all sorts of things. The stuff people said about Alex Salmond would make your hair curl but they still supported and voted for Independence, and occasionally for the SNP.

      So try widening your horizons and we might actually get Indy instead of putting people off because they haven’t met the criteria set by some here. Why not take on board the idea that sometimes leaders are people who get it wrong? There is nothing disruptive about putting a different view forward.

      Do you really want everyone to say exactly the same and to think the same way as you? Do people only come here for ‘great post’ likes and metaphorical thumbs ups? Social media is often said to be a bubble but the range of opinion on Twitter yesterday, for instance, was miles wider than the hysterical reactions here. Here all we saw were various stages of grief portrayed, mostly denial and anger. How dare anyone say ‘Nicola’ could be responsible for such heinous proposals?

      I am part of a group who have sought to engage with her for months and all we have had is frustrating obfuscation from a leadership hell bent on pushing through an ill thought out and dangerous legal framework. Questions are ignored and replies take an age.

      My opinion of Nicola Sturgeon was not formed overnight. My desire for Independence remains as strong as ever and whether you or anyone else doesn’t believe me won’t change that.

    368. Nana says:

      Trying again

      Read the latest post here
      https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/

      Total celebrates first gas from huge North Sea field
      http://archive.fo/pej8F

      Tatties
      http://archive.fo/7kPF9

      Boris Johnson published a poem joking about the ‘extermination’ of the ‘verminous’ Scottish people
      http://archive.fo/pZF0f

    369. Nana says:

      Everything about Boris Johnson is phony
      http://archive.fo/cmQPk

      Why Tory members’ ballot on Boris Johnson may be culled or truncated, writes Robert Peston
      http://archive.is/w0E37

      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/the-weekly/trump-immigration-border-separation-family.html

    370. Legerwood says:

      Nana says:
      15 June, 2019 at 1:00 pm
      John Pilger says
      https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1139554525373718529
      ………

      His tweet reminds me of the quote from Casablanca: “” Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”” For ‘gin joints’ substitute ‘courts’ and for ‘she’ substitute ‘he’. What are the chances eh?
      ……………………

      “If you’re not a member of that club, you get no say.”
      https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1139524709756874752
      ………..

      Oh God, oh God, oh God!

    371. Nana says:

      Hi Legerwood

      “Oh God, oh God, oh God!”

      You took the words right out of my mouth Legerwood and talking of alcohol (gin) but being a non drinker myself, some days I could easily be tempted. 🙁

    372. K1 says:

      Ah’ve read aw the links Nana.

      *jumps aff a cliff*

      😉

    373. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see Joe is upset by the clinical-legal model of social change. Tough titty, I’ve no time right-wing, populists, Toryboys.

      Joe
      Try and a bit more original old-chap. What about a bit of science to support your argument? You could start by supporting your claim that immigration is harmful to society. Go on, prove you’re views aren’t simply cultural prejudice.

    374. Petra says:

      This is a pro-Independence site Cassandra (11:44am) and yet I haven’t seen you post ANY comments or data on here, at any time, promoting our cause? Why’s that?

      Your focus seems to be on undermining Nicola Sturgeon SNP, not the Unionists – Davidson Tory, Leonard Labour or Rennie Libdem. Why’s that?

      You say that, ”Indy supporters come in all varieties … there is no one size fits all, the way the dominant posters here would imagine”.

      How would, could you ever actually apperceive what we imagine? What we know? How very presumptuous of you. Do you really think that the (variety of) Independence supporters on here have no idea of the ”varieties” of Independence supporters that are out there? I for one have been in contact with the ”varieties”, on a daily basis, over many years now, however when all is said and done there’s one route ONLY to us achieving our objective and that’s to support the SNP / Nicola Sturgeon whether you like them / her, or not. The immediate choice is simple with the end result being obvious. Following Independence people can support / vote for whomever they like.

      The Unionists see Nicola Sturgeon as being the woman who holds the future of the Union in her hands (the most dangerous woman in the UK). Her supporters (even on here) are seen to be a threat too. As a consequence the Establishment have been / are doing everything in their power to discredit her and her supporters, including infiltrating online sites. They do that in an attempt to ensure that the Union remains intact. So I ask myself, why would any genuine independence supporter want to join their ranks?

      In naming me, for one, you say that, ”This cult of the personality is making Independence so difficult to achieve because of zealots who cannot see any criticism of the current leader of the SNP as anything other than heresy.”

      I don’t have any objection to people criticising Nicola Sturgeon, but when it becomes more of a fixation, or a preoccupation to the exclusion of all else, such as castigating Unionists, I become very wary of the individual’s motives indeed.

      The bottom line is that we won’t see Scotland becoming Independent without Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. The popularity of that party and its leader is absolutely crucial to us winning IndyRef2, with the establishment being totally cognizant of that fact. One doesn’t have to ”widen their horizons” to know that. You with your seemingly unique ability to ”widen your horizons” are very well aware of this too, no doubt. Aren’t you.

    375. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana, highlighting once again how we Scots are living in a damnable dictatorship.

      …………………………………

      ‘When is a democracy not a democracy? When it’s in Britain.’

      …”Under FPTP, Scotland has been of no consequence to Labour, so naturally, it’s stopped caring about or even attempting to understand it. Even its rallying call of “vote SNP, get Tories” only draws loud attention to the very thing which has done so much to break the UK apart. Labour hasn’t protected Scotland from the ravages of neo-liberalism over the last 35 years. It can’t and won’t do so now, and in a so-called democracy, it publicly warns the electorate against voting for who they want! There could scarcely be a better advertisement for PR, and in the event of independence, PR – real self-determination, real choice, and real representation – is what Scottish voters will at long last be granted.”

      http://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/when-is-democracy-not-democracy-when-its-in-britain/

    376. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cassandra @ 11:44,

      Having contributed latterly to this topic, I suppose I’m one of your intended “others”, yet if you had been paying any attention of late, you might just have noticed that I have also taken some flak at times for arguing in favour of open debate, and for constructive criticism of the SNP, because the party is composed of fallible human beings just like the rest of us. But what I just can’t abide is abuse of the readership in the form of the peddling of distortions and outright lies, and sleekit frenemy attempts to belittle and undermine the cause of independence, at the heart of which is necessarily the SNP, like it or not.

      As to “hate Sturgeon” reactions, in my experience they only come from three sources:

      + outright anti-indy propagandists like the Tories and their press lackeys,

      + ordinary folk taken in by the former and using that expression as a shallow alibi for refusing to engage with the issues,

      + the small coterie of armchair-revolutionary fellow-travellers on the far left who are marginalised by popular opinion and utterly consumed by jealousy at the considerably greater success of the SNP, and whom are anyway just as likely at the drop of a hat to vote for JC their Saviour instead if he looks like offering a better chance of giving them their Nirvana.

      Of those, the only ones worth a hang are the middle group, who are themselves increasingly finding a revaluation of opinion necessary in the light of recent events, and whose former poor superficial opinion of the SG leadership typically dramatically flips overnight as they finally grasp the realities.

      As to your appearances BTL, I used to defend you, but Petra has pre-empted me here, since I also fail to detect even a smidgen of encouragement in your ever-predictable negativity. Like the Leavers, we can very easily see what you’re against, but have no clue whatever what you’re actually for.

      If you want to be taken seriously, you’ll have to up your game. Or we may continue to draw the obvious conclusions.

    377. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve just remembered a positive aspect of the old-fashioned personality. It is resistant to social fads, such as trans-activism. However, the benefits of this groundedness can be of-set by a tendency towards rose-tinted nostalgia. 😉

    378. Legerwood says:

      Nana @ 1.24 PM

      Sometimes tempted myself but then think about waking up with a hangover and finding this mess is still going on. Double whammy.

      Think we will just have to see it through stone cold sober – but an occasional chocolate bar is allowed. Scotland has some great chocolate makers.

    379. geeo says:

      Petra@3.50pm

      Spot on, and well put.

      I would be more blunt, as you probably know, about the likes of ‘cassandra’ the British Nationalist shit stirring agitator.

      But after your excellent post, i do not have to.

      Just to add, we are called the posting police etc on here, yet these cretins are STILL able to post every day to undermine Nicola and the SNP, so we are THE worse posting police, or these britnats are talking a load of drivelous slavers.

      And yeah, t’was rhetorical, we all know the answer to that one.

      To ‘cassandra’: repost your last pro indy/SNP/Nicola Sturgeon post, complete with date stamp.

      I bet, as Petra says, you cannot as there are none.

    380. Joe says:

      @Cassandra

      You are talking to sad little people who take any deviation from their own thinking as a personal assault. Ive said it before: i know pro independence scots who like WOS but avoid the comments because of the minority of utter fannies who troll it

    381. Joe says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Sorry, my dimwitted little beta male feminist but ive been allowing you to argue a point i didnt make. I agree immigration is mostly good for a nation. Unfortunately for you I said ‘uncontrolled illegal immigration.’ So why dont you go ahead and post another article written by some unemployable gender studies halfwit?

    382. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      MY concern is with the public well-being, so I’m naturally on the look-out for those selling prejudice. You may have mentioned ‘uncontrolled illegal immigration’ this time, though previously you were simply anti-immigration, IMHO. If you weren’t so hostile towards science then I might believe your not simply a bigot.

      Are you perhaps forgetting Scotland’s and England’s needs are different?



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