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Wings Over Scotland

Never don’t not say never again

Posted on June 12, 2019 by

Imagine our surprise, etc.

Well, they do say a day is a long time in politics, etc. But just like David Cameron did on the day after the indyref, it’s nice to be reminded once again that Tory “respect” for Scotland has an average lifespan of less than 24 hours.

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  1. 13 06 19 16:33

    Whoever Wins, We Lose | A Wilderness of Peace

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288 to “Never don’t not say never again”

  1. winifred mccartney says:

    Another one bites the dust – did Ruthie get to her?

  2. Betty Boop says:

    Plus ça change, c’est plus la même chose….

    They lie so often for personal advancement that they no longer recognise truth. Charlatans all.

  3. Sazz Cooper says:

    Is she ‘speaking as a mother’?

  4. Macart says:

    That was quick. 🙄

  5. Tam the Bam. says:

    The Never-ending story.

  6. blackhack says:

    What she really means is that it would not be in the interests of england.

  7. The Man in the Jar says:

    “I don’t think it is in the interests of Scotland and it’s definitely not in the interests of the United Kingdom.”

    It’s that bit that reveals their real motives.

  8. galamcennalath says:

    It’s all part of the leadership contest – the one who does most u-turns and tells most porkies is clearly the ideal candidate. Think of it all as an aptitude test the 1922 group have set them.

  9. Ian says:

    Leadsom – Indyref2 “Definitely not in the the interests of the UK”.

    Finally admitting their true motivation for wanting to stop it from taking place

  10. Bob Mack says:

    Very telling words. “Definitely not in the interests of the United Kingdom”. She means England of course.

  11. Wulls says:

    Flipity Flopity Flipity Flop.
    I wonder which Tory will come out on top
    Will it be Boris, Will it be Hunt
    Will we in scotland be stuck with a cunt.

    The answer is yes whoever they pick
    Whether it’s Gove or the other wee dick
    There’s one thing for sure, in the future I see
    We’ll all still be fucked, by the damn DUP.

  12. John Jones says:

    Been there done that, said nae mair money the that Stuart Campbell, whit happened he dangled a wee blue book in front o’ me! Away we go again, tae save a lot o’ anguish just made out a monthly payment then I can forget about it.

  13. John James Boyes says:

    Maybe she’s got a twin that thinks differently. Then again….

  14. GAC says:

    Rev, your site has given me great insight into the Indy debate. I’m more than ever convinced that Scotland will be a successful independent country. The Unionists are in panic mode, and will do anything to stop that happening. It’s only a matter of time till they play the orange, and other racist cards. The Yes movement must face the bigots down whenever this occurs.

  15. Bill Hume says:

    “a big believer in devolution”
    Where have we heard that before?

    Gird your loins for “The Vow” (Mk2).

    Ah kin hardly wait.

  16. auld highlander says:

    Who are they going to piss on when we leave?

    A loathsome creature indeed.

  17. Welsh Sion says:

    Ah … But don’t you see?

    Yesterday, it was all about: “independence”
    Today it’s all about: “independance”

    PS. The use of the word ‘respect’ and ‘Tory’ in the same sentence is one we rarely see – and, I suggest, never write.

  18. schrodingers cat says:

    is she touting for scot tory mps votes?

    a word of advice andrea, kirstene hair is a lost cause

  19. Capella says:

    an act of turning round so as to face in the opposite direction.
    an abrupt and complete reversal of attitude, opinion, or position.
    “a remarkable volte-face on taxes”

    Every day’s a learning day on WoS.

  20. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    blackhack @ 11:19,

    What she really means is that it is not in the interest of Andrea Leadsom to get elected as Tory leaderene (and purely by default, PM).

    These greasy-pole climbers just need the votes of a handful of Tory MPs, then a small band of Tory gammons in the English shires, yet they present themselves as the champions of democracy.

    Contemptible doesn’t cover it.

  21. Sharny Dubs says:

    They no longer even try to disguise their lies.

    What’s that quote about raising (or sinking) to the level of their own ineptitude?

  22. schrodingers cat says:


    you said after the eu elections that you thought it highly unlikely that there would be a GE

    after yesterdays poll showing that under a bojo PM the tories could win an over all majority, you tweeted that the tories would be mad to elect anyone else.

    do you still think that a ge is still unlikely?

    if not, and considering that this ge could well be a substitute for indyref2, dont we need the wbb2 now? is it ready to go to print?

  23. Maid_in_Scotland says:

    I would respect the result of referendums too if they were conducted honestly and with true respect for ordinary voters. But as we know, that was not what happened in either case. In Scotland we were subjected to lies, promises which were never intended to be kept, serious threats (yes, there were from a number of sources), fear-mongering and downright insults intended to strongly influence your average wavering Scot not sure what to vote, who has an inferiority complex to start with. And all financed by dodgy money from dodgy sources.

    The EU referendum campaign was different but based for the most part on falsehoods, fear and insults but, on this occasion, directed at non-Brits, and, of course, financed by dodgy money.

  24. galamcennalath says:

    So Leadsom believes in devolution? Since when were Tories keen? They hate it, most of them have always opposed it and some of them would reverse it.

    Never trust a Tory. Honesty and integrity aren’t in their vocabulary.

  25. schrodingers cat says:

    the only way the tory mps can stop bojo winning is to ensure he doesnt make it into the last 2, if he does, the rank and file members will almost certainly elect bojo as the new PM. so the number he is looking for is 103, even if the rest of the tory mps split their votes evenly between 2 other candidates, bojo will go into the last 2

    we will see what the first round of voting does tomorrow.

    present state of play

    Dominic Raab, 22 MPs in support
    Sajid Javid, 20 MPs in support
    Matt Hancock, 15 MPs in support
    Esther McVey, 6 MPs in support
    Mark Harper, 6 MPs in support
    Rory Stewart, 6 MPs in support
    Andrea Leadsom, 3 MPs in support
    78 total

    Boris Johnson, 71 MPs in support
    Jeremy Hunt, 31 MPs in support
    Michael Gove, 32 MPs in support
    212 total

    Tory MPs who have left Party and wont be voting
    4 MPs
    Unlikely to vote Treeza May, Kirstene Hair?

    Tory MPs who can vote 308 total

    ERG Members 90 MPs in support

    Anti EU undecideds
    Mike Penning, John Baron, Adam Afriyie

  26. Neil Mackenzie says:

    She doesn’t live in Scotland. It’s none of her business. Whether Scotland has a new indyref is no business of ANY of the people running for leadership of the Conservative Party. In that context, pronouncements by these people on that subject are, at best, impertinent and, at worst, declarations of intent to (illegally?) obstruct the precedented constitutional and democratic process.

  27. Dr Jim says:

    Andrea Leadsom’s pretendy Volte Face won’t win her any Scottish Tory votes, just the opposite, that lot believe in dominance not devolution

    Andrea Leadsom smiles like an old fashioned Mumsie through her heavily Ponds pink powdered cold creamed face that conceals a deeply unpleasant person of enormous depth and ability to lie about anything then barefaced deny it as she removes a hanky from her sleeve to pretend to wipe away the tears she fabricates at the very thought that anyone could even think of making such an accusation of her lying

  28. Capella says:

    From Stu’s twitter:

    Did you not stand for tory leader back in 2016? You were told then you weren’t wanted so why do you get to have another go? There will be no second attempts at getting the result you want…unless you’re a tory MP

    We could extend that to denounce the whole idea of a second Tory leadership election.

  29. frogesque says:

    Andrea, you said you would never say never to those uppity Jocks. Now, listen up hen, if you EVER want any sort of future in our wonderful party you get your fanny out there and put the vermin right.

    Bastards are a pain in the arse and we would be well shot but we NEED that fucking oil and all the rest so you’ll just fucking well do as you’re told!

    This conversation ends here. Got it?

  30. Proud Cybernat says:

    I think she finally realised that Javid hadn’t allowed her first remark.

    Tories–whit’re they like??

  31. Andrew Davidson says:

    Good grief, I went to bed last night in Australia thinking, “wow one of the Tory candidates isn’t going to say no to democracy” and now this. That’s utterly ridiculous.

  32. William Habib Steele says:

    Scotland does not need the permission of a Prime Minister of the English government of the UK to act to become independent. Does Leadsom not know that the People of Scotland are sovereign in Scotland? The English Parliament of the UK is not sovereign in Scotland.

  33. Effijy says:

    UKaye Adams on radio shortbread had a well versed caller from Devon rhyme
    Off the many many horrors attributed to Bungling Boris and a Crackpot Tory
    From Fife countered that he if just what we need to take us out on a no deal Brexit?

    He went on to say how sorry he was Ruthless wasn’t standing? lol

    Next caller an SNP supporter mentioned how Nicola was taking time out
    To meet her SNP supporting Downs Syndrome son later in the year as he
    adore her.

    UKaye let slip an huffing sound obviously disgusted at anyone liking Nicola.

    What a waste of a Tory Millionaire that woman is to radio shortbread.

  34. Effijy says:

    Can anyone advise on the total of last years record breaking fund raiser £163K ?

    We need to beat it to get these wonderful books into Scotland’s homes.

  35. admiral says:

    I see the Scotsman online is asking readers to subscribe. Things going from bad to worse?

  36. Artyhetty says:

    Not in the ‘interests of Scotland’, and, ‘DEFINITELY not in the interests of England’. ( in particular the south, but also to keep the plebs happy with the odd vanity project oop north). There, that’s more truthful Andrea!

    As if the Tories care on iota about Scotland, or Scotland’s people. They do however really, really care about being able to continue to siphon away Scotland’s oil and other resources, and taking Scotland’s revenues and getting away with using Scotland’s riches to prop up England, etc, freeloading as the saying goes!

    Comments by Maid-in Scotland@11.50 and Dr.Jim @ 12.00pm both very apt. ‘Ponds pink powdered cold creamed face’, Dr.Jim you have described Leadsom to a T there! Excellent. No amount of face paint can hide the bitter hatred and colonial attitude towards Scotland from these Britnats.

    ( I keep typing Britants by mistake, hmm).

  37. Socrates MacSporran says:

    John James Boyes @ 11.23am

    Your suggestion of a second Andrea Loathesome reminded me of the Friday Night Glasgow Empire patron’s take on Mike and Bernie Winters: “Oh fuck, there’s twa o’ them.”

  38. galamcennalath says:

    OT but important. Rev Stu said on twitter this morning that the fundraiser stood at £144,815 – just £8400 short of last year’s all-time record. Come on, you 99%, help provide some Wee Blue Books!

  39. msean says:

    How many indyrefs,sorry, Tory leadership contests has Ms Leadsome and Mr Johnson had now. Is it more than one?

  40. Iain says:

    She seems VERY confused …

  41. donnywho says:

    BoJo will get the support of the majority of Tory MPs.

    You all know this because you all know what they are like.

    1/. Will they vote for the good of the country or the party?
    Answer … the party

    2/. Will they vote for their self interests of the populuses?
    Answer … their self interest

    3/. Will they put principles over a threat of deselection?
    Answer … what principles

    The survey that has Boris as the only candidate, who can deliver them another term in government and thus protecting their jobs is all you need to know.

  42. Fergus Green says:

    Just made a humble (further) donation.

    Enough to cover 40 additional WBB2s.

    Come on the other 99% – be like us!

  43. Breeks says:

    Seems pretty clear London based Tories haven’t a thought in their heads about Scotland, and spontaneously trot out any old shite they think is bland and uncharged politically.
    Only later, they are briefed that off the cuff remarks about Scotland are dangerous departures from the prepared script which categorically states that Scotland should not be allowed a second referendum.
    It’s like the Tories have an anti-Scottish hall monitor to make sure the don’t depart from the official script whenever they mention Scotland.

    Seems Labour and the Lib Dems stick rigidly to the same script too, which begins to make you wonder if it’s less “party political” and more of a “Home Officey / Civil Service” Establishment doctrine.

    The UK parties can’t agree on anything, but suddenly speak as one when it comes to subjugation Scottish democracy and Scotland’s constitutional integrity.

    Kinda stinks, but surprises nobody.

  44. geeo says:

    “I don’t think it is in the interests of Scotland and it’s definitely not in the interests of the United Kingdom.”


    So much contradiction in one statement.

    1. If it’s “not in the interests of Scotland” then she must mean that Scotland would be severely impoverished by independence.

    Ergo: Scotland needs the union to survive financially.


    2. “If it’s “definitely not in the interests of the uk”, then that suggests a couple of things.

    Without Scotland, the United Kingdom would be impoverished. Yet, we are told independence would impoverish Scotland !

    The use of the word “definitely” in reference to the Uk interest is absolutely telling, as that suggests indy would be WORSE for the ‘uk’ (note how she thinks the uk exists without Scotland).

  45. A2 says:

    To be fair she said she wasn’t going to stand there and rule it out, I assume she’s standing somewhere else now or possibly sitting down.

  46. Abulhaq says:

    In the UK the Westminster parliament is sovereign. All devolved entities are subject to it. They may be prorogued or abolished according to the will of the UK parliament, as exemplified in the Northern Ireland deadlock.
    Parliament can legally pass any legislation it wishes. This point is made clearly by Lord Reid in Madzimbamuto v Lardner-Burke [1969]

    [It is often said that it would be unconstitutional for the United Kingdom Parliament to do certain things, meaning that the moral, political and other reasons against doing them are so strong that most people would regard it as highly improper if Parliament did these things. But that does not mean that it is beyond the power of Parliament to do such things. If Parliament chose to do any of them, the courts would not hold the Act of Parliament invalid.]

    Without a limiting constitution the UK parliament has the powers of absolute monarchy. Being governed by the organic, free spirit of English law this sovereign parliament has volatility built in.
    We may not like what these Tories are saying but they do have, under the system, every right to say it.
    Arguing ‘constitution’ and ‘law’ with them is a dialogue of the deaf. Scotland needs to move beyond playing the game according to their alien rules.

  47. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Andrea Leadsom is just fulfilling UK Government policy:

    UK Ministers will obstruct anything they feel is contrary to UK Government policy or interests.

    We have always suspected this was the case but now have an official statement from the UK Government admitting so (J Hunt yesterday on NS visit to Brussels).

  48. David McCann says:

    Frankly- who cares what Andrea Loathsome says or thinks!

  49. Bobp says:

    ‘And its definitely not in the interests of the united kingdom’. I think thats the bit that gives it all away.

  50. Petra says:

    Andrea Leadsom’s got a right to chop and change her mind from No to Yes, as there’s a Scottish connection. Don’t forget that her stepfather is Scottish, lol. Don’t forget either that she’s made a meal of complaining about the Scots being subsidy junckies, robbing the “poor English” blind and if she was to become PM she’d slash our budget (as Johnston has said previously).


    BBC news is reporting on the historical climate change plan that’s just been conjured up by whiz kid Big T. Zero emissions by 2050. Isn’t that just another policy that they’ve pinched from the SNP?


    BBC news: Ha ha ha. 3.6 million more people, than 100% of the English population, are registered as being patients of English GP’s. Reminds me of the Indyref postal vote fiasco.

  51. Corrado Mella says:

    Who cares about what an English politician says?
    This is Scotland.

    It’s as if we should worry about what a politician from Lesotho (no disrespect intended) says about what Turkmenistan (ditto) can or cannot do.


  52. jfngw says:

    Ooh! did she receive her Ruth Davidson Blue Peter Flip-Flop badge.

    They used to say a week was a long time in politics, we really need to shorten this timescale with the Tories. Their policy is only valid until the next tweet.

  53. jfngw says:

    BBC News reporter refers to Boris Johnson as charismatic, on what planet is he charismatic. If anything he may be hypnotic as he seems to have BBC journalists in a trance falling over his every word.

  54. Capella says:

    BBC website fails to publish the Scottish newspaper front pages today. So naturally one goes straight to The National to see what is verboten for us to see. Here it is:

    Clearly there is a fatwa against mentioning Nicola’s meeting with Michel Barnier and Jean Claude Junker and Alyn Smith’s leadership of the biggest EU parliamentary group.

  55. Effijy says:

    Radio 2 Jeremy Vine show- played a clip of Owen Jones rhyming off
    Boris insults to gay people, Muslim women, world leaders etc.
    A real assassination of Johnson’s character by his own words.

    Boris supporting MP concludes that non of these remarks matter?

    Utterly indefensible on all accounts!

    The guy also defends tax cuts for the wealthier as it they and not lower
    Paid workers who generate money for the country.

    So average and low paid workers of the UK, you are shit to the Tories.
    You don’t count and you will continue to have your living standards reduced.

  56. HandandShrimp says:

    It is academic as Boris is still the front runner his decision to publish Michie’s Friendly Fire* poem back in 2004 is probably fair indication of what we can expect from Boris.

    * likely satirical and intended as a joke but what Michie intended and what Boris thinks may not be an exact match.

  57. jfngw says:

    Wow, at least this Tory contest has given us a new phrase ‘As thick as Esther McVey’. When you want to describe someone and shit is just not thick enough to cover it.

  58. McDuff says:

    So basically she would “fight” against us having a second referendum. Why?
    England says they heavily subsidise us, so why this screeming desperation to keep us.Well of course we know why.
    And this patronising twit also lectures us like children that it’s not in our best intetests suggesting we are thick.*#@$

  59. jfngw says:

    If Boris Johnson had been a state pupil he would probably by now be in jail, but as a ex Etonian he has been an editor, Foreign Secretary and now the favourite for PM. How connections, privilege and the class system works in the UK, are their any better examples than Cameron and Johnson. Two people of mediocre ability that seen themselves as leaders, just for the fun of it.

  60. Alba Laddie says:

    Stop calling this clown ? “Boris”!!!

  61. Cubby says:

    Leadsom is, in her own words, being disrespectful to Scotland. Nothing new there for Tories/Britnats.

    Proud Scot buts are conditioned to expect disrespect from their betters down south and enjoy the smell of the mountain of shit dumped on them. They know no better and expect no less.

  62. Ronnie says:

    Listening to Radio 4 today (I know, I know..) Ruthie was being interviewed about her support for Savid Javid. Apart from the usual no more indyrefs no surrender get on with the day job narrative highlights included her being introduced as “Coming live from Westminster it’s our.. sorry the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson” and her stating that she would never want to be Prime Minister but did fantasise about it in the bath from time to time which, she said, “is probably not an image your listeners want to think about”

    The most ridiculous question was “apart from you not being an MP, did you at any point consider standing for the leadership?”

  63. call me dave says:

    Jings! ‘Brit Nats’ got talent… not. FGS. 🙂

    Wir teas oot Scotland…. if we don’t vote to change things.

  64. Juteman says:

    “What I really meant to say was that England is going to be fucked losing access to the huge EU market. Losing all our Ginger serfs oil, salmon, whisky and wind power would totally fuck England. So yes, i’m totally in favour of devolution, but not when I could actually lose money myself.
    What ho!”

  65. Ronnie says:

    I’m waiting for one of them to declare that they’ll be tough on Scotland and tough on the causes of Scotland.

  66. admiral says:

    Cubby says:
    12 June, 2019 at 3:21 pm
    Leadsom is, in her own words, being disrespectful to Scotland. Nothing new there for Tories/Britnats.
    Proud Scot buts are conditioned to expect disrespect from their betters down south and enjoy the smell of the mountain of shit dumped on them. They know no better and expect no less.

    Unfortunately, the more they are disrespected, the more they try even harder to ingratiate themselves (See for example Ruth Davidson: A Scot in England is usually a vandal and a thief) by denigrating Scotland, Scots and Scottishness even more and by placing an imagined Britain, British and Britishness on an even higher pedestal as something to be aspired to.

  67. Welsh Sion says:

    jfngw @ 3.15 pm

    You forgot the 3rd Mouseketeer, Osborne.

    (Though, I’m sure you could extend the list to cover Raab, Gove et al ad infinitum …)

  68. Robert Peffers says:

    @The Man in the Jar says: 12 June, 2019 at 11:19 am:

    ” … “I don’t think it is in the interests of Scotland and it’s definitely not in the interests of the United Kingdom.
    It’s that bit that reveals their real motives.”

    Oh! Let’s be magnanimous, The Man in the Jar, after all she did get the second bit correct.

  69. twathater says:

    Just who is it or who are they , who have FORCED this paragon of virtue ( heh heh ) to do such a rapid volte face

    Shurely it cannot be the combined efforts of the ever hailed heroic fantastic 13 tory defenders of Scoatland , where they untiringly and without rest or succour fight to the very death to protect Scoatland and it’s pair people from the ravages of the dreaded independence seeking very very baaaaaad SNP

    Naw a think it’s just a shower o shitehawks who are terrified that we’ll stop subsidising them and they’ll be skint , not only that they’ll then have to explainerise to their voters why they lied to them

  70. Cameron Gazzola Black says:

    This is as close as any unionist has ever come to letting slip their true motivation for clinging on to Scotland. We get the usual facile claim that independence would not be in Scotland’s interests and then an emphatic statement that it DEFINITELY wouldn’t be in the interests of the United Kingdom (really, of England).

    If Scotland is the constant drain on UK finances that we’re always being told we are, what could there be about losing it that would not be in the UK’s interest? This is Leadsom’s confession that Westminster is NOT subsidising Scotland.

  71. wullie says:

    Look at Scotlands resources as a bank . Our bank has been looted for over 300 years. Should this continue.

  72. Robert Peffers says:

    @jfngw says: 12 June, 2019 at 1:51 pm:

    ” … BBC News reporter refers to Boris Johnson as charismatic.”

    Maybe they just got a puckle mixed up and really meant repulsive, jfngw.

  73. kapelmeister says:

    So just to clarify, if Leadsom was PM she would always seek to withhold democratic rights from Scotland, but out of respect would give a verbal promise that she would never utterly rule out the idea of those same rights being restored.

    Oh, and if PM she’d still ask us for our votes in a general election.

  74. jfngw says:

    @Welsh Sion

    Osborne didn’t really cut it, not old Etonian and an oik to them. Gove is merely the jumped up house Jock, ‘he knows his place’ as Ronnie Corbett said.

  75. Welsh Sion says:

    I stand corrected, jfngw (4.58 pm) … 🙂


    Government defeats cross-party bid to allow MPs to legislate to rule out no-deal

    The government has won by 309 votes to 298 – a majority of 11.

  76. Hamish100 says:

    The First Ministers visit to the EU was surely on the Records front page with Clegg saying well done!!

  77. Robert Peffers says:

    If Wingers really want the whole truth it isn’t the English that are stopping Scottish independence. It is Scottish unionists. If just a couple of percent more Scots voted for independence we would be home and dry.

    It’s comin yet fir aa that.

  78. geeo says:

    Javid on Davidson:

    “I want to transform Westminster in the same way Ruth has transformed Holyrood”


    Comedy Gold, Davidson is an utter nomark at Holyrood.

    Aiming high there, Javid 🙂

  79. schrodingers cat says:

    What is the collective noun for a group of Tory Leadership candidates?

    Best answer wins Andrea Leadsom!

    is it
    a. a snort
    b. a twunt
    c. a clusterbourach
    d. a wankhole

  80. schrodingers cat says:

    ge is coming

    in an effort to avoid confusion, the snp manifesto needs to be short, sweet and to the point

    bollox to bojo, bollox to brexit and bollox to britain

    vote snp for an independent scotland

    i’m not sure we need to be anymore specific than that, no need to mention the eu.

    if the lib dems can use bollox, why cant we?

  81. Welsh Sion says:

    schrodingers cat @ 5.16 pm

    e. an arrogance
    f. an ignorance
    g. a hypocrisy
    h. an idiocy

  82. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    It’s comin yet fir aa that.


    i read somewhere the other day that this tory leadership election was like a massive snp recruiting campaign

    i think it is, we are now turning a corner

    let the unionists focus on indyref2, if we win 50%+ in the coming ge, this will shoot down all of their arguments in one go, they wont see it coming

  83. jfngw says:


    Well it’s true in one sense regarding Holyrood, never has anyone led a party to seven consecutive election defeats and still remained leader. In that sense Davidson has surpassed all leaders at Holyrood and Westminster. The UK’s biggest serial loser in history, no matter what the BBC may try and tell you.

  84. Meindevon says:

    Ruth Davidson was Sajid Javid’s warm up act a short while ago. She was embarrassing. Until it came to the no surrender line. Then she was downright frightening.

    She lives in a ‘Union that is every day under threat’ In her country ‘nationalism replaces patriotism and its ugly, it’s divisive and it’s dangerous’.

    I’m still fuming. How dare she call me dangerous and threatening. This kind of language is the most dangerous of all things. She stokes fear into the my friends and neighbours who know nothing of Scotland or it’s inhabitants.

    I’m off to hit a few tennis balls extremely hard. Sorry in advance to my opponent

  85. geeo says:

    jfngw: ‘its true in one sense regarding Holyrood”…


    Nah, totally reject that.

    Still being a branch office manager, after defeat on defeat, is in no way “transforming Holyrood” in ANY way.

    It just shows as proof she has done less than nothing.

  86. Joe says:

    The torys are simply the ones with the most honesty about it.

    The entire British establishment understands what goes if/when Scotland goes. Wars have been fought for less. Civilian infrastructure turned to dust and hundreds of thousands dead for less.

    As for another referendum on the EU – that will depend on political expediency. As soon as the polls show enough solid support there will be another referendum. Until then its about stalling and this is having a negative/dragging effect on the private sector throughout the UK which can be seen in the recent PMI numbers. Its sharpening the negative effects of the global economic slowdown we are experiencing and at its worst Brexit itself will be blamed for it. Not the delays and endless fear mongering, nor the political ideologies in play (globalisation) but those stupid ordinary people and their infantile ideas on democracy. (yes i can already hear the near-autistic squeeling of ‘aye but 60 odd percent of us voted to STAY’. Yes, but Scots gave up their potential rights when they voted ‘No’ back in the day. Harsh but true. Dont look at me, I was on the indy side.)

    While many here would welcome a 2nd EU referendum just note how the ‘will of the people’ has absolutely nothing to do with any decisions made yet it is cited to reinforce any vote that goes their way.

    The problems are just another symptom of the entrenched criminal career political class, central banking cartel and their debt based system of finance coupled with their complicit unofficial propaganda arm (the media).

    Just as the people of England should have paid more attention to the tactics used against the Scots during our referendum we need to pay attention to how Brexit is being handled because thats how we will be treated should we win next time around.

    1) its not a clear enough majority, so maybe we need to delay and perhaps have another referendum
    2) the economy is going to go to hell so its insane to just leave the UK altogether. Maybe remain in the UK but with devolution max mega ultimate pro deluxe?
    3) security. Scotland will be on its own in a world literally teaming with ‘evil Russians’.

    The ‘will of the people’ is the last thing that either Westminster or the EU give a damn about. One is just more polished than the other and is positively(dishonestly) represented on the comments on this site by certain characters.

    Its not Britain v the plucky Scots. Or Britain v the super-honest and well-meaning EU. Or Hungary v the EU. Its the political/financial establishment v you and me. Globally. If in doubt just ask why the entire bad debt load of the last financial crisis, caused purely by criminal banking activity, was so easily offloaded entirely onto you and I, and our children, and our childrens children, yet we were never asked and not a single one of the people responsible saw prison?

  87. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. “It’s like the Tories have an anti-Scottish hall monitor to make sure the don’t depart from the official script whenever they mention Scotland.

    Seems Labour and the Lib Dems stick rigidly to the same script too, which begins to make you wonder if it’s less “party political” and more of a “Home Officey / Civil Service” Establishment doctrine.”. British nationalism is the articulation of institutional racism. Simples.

    Learn more about Institutional Racism
    Racism, Sociology of

    Institutional Racism

    One major departure from past scholarship is contemporary sociology’s shift from locating racism in individual beliefs and attitudes to considering it as primarily a phenomenon of higher-level entities, such as social processes, social forces, and institutions. Rather than explaining racial inequality via individual-level racism (conscious or otherwise), theories of institutional racism give analytic primacy to the taken-for-granted policies, practices, and norms of organizations, systems, and structures….

  88. CameronB Brodie says:

    Institutional racism is a CORE subject, I’m not being fanciful.

    Institutional racism and ethnic inequalities:
    an expanded multilevel framework

  89. Abulhaq says:

    Scotland will get respect when nationalist leaders become leaders to be scared of. In a cage a tiger is a curiosity, out of it, formidable. Open the cage, there’s plenty of meat.

  90. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    To be fair to Colonel Yadaftie @Meindevon says at 5:27 pm

    “She does live in a ‘Union that is every day under threat’ and that in her country ‘nationalism replaces patriotism and its ugly, it’s divisive and it’s dangerous’.”

    She just neglects to point out that the nationalism which has replaced patriotism and is ugly, divisive and dangerous’” is BRITISH NATIONALISM.

  91. CameronB Brodie says:

    Honestly folks, accademics have been working hard since the 1970s, to combat Britain’s endemic problem with racism. The full-English Brexit has undone a large part of that effort. Scotland must not allow England’s racial intolerance to undermine our economy and social fabric. To insist otherwise is to oppose patriotism towards Scotland and is suggestive of Torydum and English/British nationalism.

    Culture, Prejudice, Racism, and Discrimination

  92. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    jfngw @ 17:26,

    With past NorthBritCon leaders, the BritNat media didn’t have all their hopes invested nearly so heavily. McClatchie and Goldie could come and go without fear of the imminent breakup of the Union, but “tough-guy” Davidson was the intended saviour, so had to have maximum protection.

    The metro media don’t seem to have caught up with Ruthie’s fading influence yet, but if the FibDem surge at the EU elections manages somehow to persist in the polls as UKexit approaches, I imagine soon enough their allegiance will shift to the equally mendacious* if more subtle and superficially-attractive Swinson.

    *A sine-qua-non attribute of saviourhood in North Britain, of course, given the realities. But those realities are increasingly intruding there, in contrast to the enduring and increasingly-desperate self-delusion of “no-no-never” Metroland.

    One expects though that all such putative champions of the Union will somehow fail to rise to the circumstances. When they finally resort to wheeling out El Gordo again, you will know the end game is with us.

  93. schrodingers cat says:

    D-day commemoration : “we owe them a debt we can never repay”

    tories : “make them pay for their tv licenses”

    they are a gift ah tell ya

  94. Petra says:

    Another lying Tory PM wannabe. They can’t seem to help themselves. The row continues between Lorraine Kelly and Esther McVey. Scotland versus England, lol. Handbags at dawn. Swop your wee handbag Lorraine for yer mammy’s giant message bag filled with tattles.

  95. Dr Jim says:

    Sajid Javid says he’s going to do for Westmister what Ruth Davidson has done for Holyrood

    So that’s lose then

  96. Petra says:

    Aw naw, I’ll take that back. I’ve just listened to the latest video and Lorraine Kelly is praising Rooth the Mooth. Somebody give her an education. Get the wee blue book out to her, ASAP.

  97. Dr Jim says:

    I’m afraid Miss Kelly is as Yoon as they come
    she does it nicely but still one of them, one of them, one of them, lots of this £££££££££££

    Unless she’s acting as Lorraine Kelly and not actually being Lorraine Kelly on behalf of the Lorraine Kelly company which is owned and managed by Lorraine Kelly

    Complicated eh!

  98. jfngw says:

    @Dr Jim

    You have to assume that Javid actually knows nothing about Scotland and probably just believes the BBC line that Davidson won the election. And Davidson’s ego probably prevents her from telling him the truth ‘sorry Sajid but I’ve never won an election in eight years as leader, but the BBC loves me’.

  99. Patrick Roden says:

    Perhaps Andrea has learned that one sure fire way to ingratiate yourself with the Tory Membership, is to put the ‘Scotch’ in their place!

    Any sign of English weakness, in the face of Uppity Scottish demands, will not go down well in the minds of the ‘posh & privileged’ Tories.

    ‘Rebellious Scots to crush’ Andrea, away with this talk of having respect for them!!!

  100. Dr Jim says:

    One minute Ruth’s shouting about No surrender to Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum because there’s no mandate and nobody wants it anyway, then when asked about the No deal Brexit Big Mooth Ruth says *well eh see ahm no in charge doon there in the big England so ahve nae power doon there tae say anything*

    Maybe it’s the BBC that’s told Ruth she’s got any power up here in Scotland and she keeps forgetting SHE KEEPS LOSING!!

  101. galamcennalath says:

    Patrick Roden says:

    Any sign of English weakness, in the face of Uppity Scottish demands, will not go down well in the minds of the ‘posh & privileged’ Tories.

    Perhaps that’s why the backstop has got right up their noses – having their asses whooped by Ireland. They must hate that. Not because it screws up their Brexit plans but because it’s such an affront to their inflated imperialist egos. And now the Scots threaten have a go (as they see it) when they are on the ropes.

    They probably view all this as some sort of Hunger Games style threat.

  102. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jockanese Wind Talker says: 12 June, 2019 at 6:19 pm:

    … ‘Union that is every day under threat’ and that in her country ‘nationalism replaces patriotism and its ugly, it’s divisive and it’s dangerous’.”
    She just neglects to point out that the nationalism which has replaced patriotism and is ugly, divisive and dangerous’” is BRITISH NATIONALISM.”

    Excuse me for pointing this out to those subscribing to the unionist belief that patriotism is somehow better than nationalism. It is pure fantasy.

    If you look at the dictionary definitions of both terms you will find dictionaries tell that both terms are synonyms of each other – that means they mean exactly the same thing.

    What the dictionary will not tell you is that there are two distinct forms of both of these terms.

    One is an inward looking, destructive and exclusive form of nationalism/patriotism. The other is outward looking, constructive and inclusive.

    Now note that English/UK patriotism is all worked up about, “The immigration”, problem and is actively deporting people who actually are UK nationals with UK passports. Also the UK/England government wants to leave the EU that is run on democratic principles and by consensus.

    Scotland is also worked up about the immigrant problem, we can’t get enough immigrants, and we wish to remain in the EU where we would have the same veto and vote as every other EU member country and work in consensus with the other EU countries.

    We also want to end the UK that does NOT work by consensus and can never be a true democracy because democracy and sovereign monarchy are diametrically opposites.

    It is madness to attempt to claim two terms synonymous with each other have different meanings.

    That, though, is the Westminster way – words mean whatever Westminster says they will mean and if you don’t like it they will deport you for not learning to speak English properly or for not learning UK English history.

  103. Republicofscotland says:

    Leadsom, who said the EU would come around to the British way of thinking on a EU deal, because we export jam and biscuits to them.

    We really, really need out of this farcical union sooner than later.

  104. Maid_in_Scotland says:

    Just picked this up from a btl comment from one of Craig Murray’s regulars who is warning the Scots that BoJo is after our hearts and minds:

    “A brilliant letter from my @ScotsTories friends and colleagues. I am committed to supporting the iconic Scottish whisky industry, vital oil and gas industry, and freeing fishermen from the CFP. As Prime Minister, I will put strengthening our Union at the heart of everything I do.”

    Be warned people. They are not going to let our wealth go anywhere but into the UK of England Treasury and we’ll see very little of it return as usual. What a bunch of (fill in as appropriate). Expect herself to switch back to support of BoJo. Fluff will be polishing his teapots.

  105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joe @ 18:01,

    You keep turning up like a persistent weed. Having discovered somehow that WoS has a big readership, you think you can freeload on it and sell us any old rubbish.

    I don’t know whether you’re plumb daft or you just think we all are. But this line of yours is a hoot. To defeat global capitalism we have to stay an unheeded captive of an uncaring lonely 2nd-rate has-been UK with no friends except a predatory Trump. We can supposedly achieve “socialism in one country” via a delusionist “Empire 2.0” run by greedy disaster capitalists whose only interest in Scotland is to milk us further of all our precious resources.

    You “voted for indy”, yet you try to sell us another mangy pup and refer to us as “you”. Aye right!

  106. geeo says:

    Joe the joker @6.01pm

    “Scots gave up their potential rights when they voted ‘No’ back in the day. Harsh but true.

    Dont look at me, I was on the indy side”

    So much comedy, ignorance and stoopid in the same place.

    Joe, the gift that keeps on giving.

  107. Clootie says:

    Red Tories vote in support of Blue Tories once AGAIN!

  108. Bobp says:

    I agree with robert peffers at 5.09pm. Indy has nothing to do with the english. Its the unionists ( i wouldnt even call them scottish) who live in scotland who continually stab scotland in the back. Could you ever see an englishman/woman be in thrall to a foreign country. They have more guts in their little finger (though it pains me to say so) than those tractors in scotland masquerading as scots.

  109. Giving Goose says:



    Those “scots” who support the union are British Nationalists..end of!

    Real Indy supporting Scots need to lay claim to the title Scot, Scottish, Scotland – it doesn’t belong to unionists, who are Brits!

  110. As Johnson (Sam not Boris) said,

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”

    has there ever been a bigger scoundel in Scotland than Colonel Ruth,


    `a dishonest or unscrupulous person; a rogue.`


  111. Robert Peffers says:


    I didn’t hear or see too much made of the fact that Alyn Smyth had been elected as the president of the rather influential EFA EU Parliamentary group.

    Wee Scotland is well thought of in the EU. I believe that when the constraints within the EU of not speaking out against member states is removed there will be no meaningful resistance to an independent Scotland either remaining in the EU as the legacy member state or immediately being accepted as an EU member state.

  112. bittie45 says:

    I always tell the truth. I never said that. I just lied. No I didn’t. There’s something very not right with this trumponian era. They do it all the time, they wriggle and they squirm, they lie and they cheat, they do it with impunity, and its getting worse.

    One judge decides that it is OK for Carmichael to lie because it brought him no personal benefit, and another judge decides the law shouldn’t even apply to Johnson at all. The only time it seems when the law is applied, is to those who have no power. The law should be changed to make lying by anyone representing an organisation illegal. But then turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

    Maybe the approach should be a class action under the consumer protection laws, arguing that if you bought a telly and upon un-boxing it found out there was a lump of telly-shaped hard cheese, you would have every right to reparation

    I didn’t even want the bloody telly in the first place. The salesman from UK-shop took my money without permission. I want my money back. And if I can just free myself from the salesman’s grasp then I’m off to Scot-shop.

  113. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Peffers
    Nationalism and patriotism aren’t the same thing. Nationalism is identitarian and supremacist in nature, patriotism is civic and egalitarian in nature. That is why I can support Scottish ‘nationalism’, as I am a Scot living in Scotland and supporting patriotism towards Scotland. British nationalists are patriots to the exclusionary political ideology of another nation (see the full-English Brexit). My ‘nationalism’, i.e. patriotism, is supportive of multicultural tolerance. British nationalism, not so much.

    As with sex and gender, nationalism and patriotism are not the same things. Best not conflate the two. 😉

  114. Dave tewart says:

    Just reading the input from McVile on LBS about the airport runway.
    Just to be clear:-
    The safest direction for a runway is when it faces directly INTO the WIND.
    Just shows the nonsense that comes out these politicians mouths when they have no knowledge of the subject.

  115. Cactus says:

    Might one respectfully add of late…

    THIS is the Last fucking Call!

    Be in that number 😉

  116. Dr Jim says:

    The pieces fall into place? or coincidence?

    I don’t believe in political coincidence so……
    I think Nicola Sturgeon has done a very clever thing this last week after a wee visit and a chat with Leo Varadkar

    First she issued a warning to Ireland that action would be taken over illegal fishing in Scottish waters when we never bothered about it before then she went to Brussells to pre organise the deal on which Scotland as an Independent country would be joining the EU showing that if Scotland does not get a suitable deal, perhaps even the same opt outs as the UK enjoyed Scotland can keep its fishing when Independent just the same as some other coastal countries do, if I’m right, the FMs not just a choochy face

    Something tells me that Scotland’s about to become country 28 on the terms the FM wants us to be

  117. Robert Peffers says:

    Meant to post earlier that Broadcasting Scotland was interesting tonight. You can still get it at:-

  118. CameronB Brodie says:

    There I am conflating the two terms myself. British nationalists aren’t “patriots” to the exclusionary political ideology of another nation, they are “loyal” to it (see the full-English Brexit). Subsequently, they tend to identify as British rather than Scottish or English. Time for some Constitutional Theory?

    A general theory of
    constitutional patriotism

    This article offers a theory of constitutional patriotism independent of the controversial social theories of modernization and rationalization with which Jürgen Habermas’s version of constitutional patriotism is associated.

    It argues that the purpose of constitutional patriotism, as a set of beliefs and dispositions, is to enable and uphold a liberal democratic form of rule that free and equal citizens can justify to each other. The object of patriotic attachment is a specific constitutional culture that mediates between the universal and the particular, while the mode of attachment is one of critical judgment. Finally, constitutional patriotism results in a number of policy recommendations that are clearly different from policies that liberal nationalists would advocate.

  119. jfngw says:

    One of the most ridiculous things on the BBC currently, and I know it’s a long list, is them asking us to submit questions to a Tory debate that none of us can vote on. In fact the only ones initially voting are Tory MP’s and facts have very little relevance to how they will vote.

  120. Jock McDonnell says:

    If you build them parallel to the prevailing wind don’t runways tend to face the wind & not face the wind all at the same time ?

  121. stu mac says:

    @CameronB Brodie says:
    12 June, 2019 at 10:14 pm

    Nationalism and patriotism aren’t the same thing. Nationalism is identitarian and supremacist in nature, patriotism is civic and egalitarian in nature. As with sex and gender, nationalism and patriotism are not the same things.

    IMHO you’re defining the two terms as being distinct to suit yourself, when in fact they overlap and are often used to refer to the same thing. We all know the phrase “my country right or wrong” which is a definition of extreme patriotism. I would say the main difference between the two terms is that “patriotism” refers to the feelings and emotions that one might feel for a nation, while nationalism refers more to political beliefs. As language is often fuzzy of course there is an element of both in the meanings of the words.

    Both nationalism and patriotism can have negative elements (as have many ideas and beliefs) and of course positive elements. I’d say that modern history has taught us you can’t do away with nations and the feelings attached to them but what you can do is promote a nationalism/patriotism which while positive about your own country, does not have to accept negative attitudes towards other nations.

    In fact, with the recent moves towards greater centralisation, independent, smaller nations are required to prevent people away from the centre from being disadvantaged so a positive nationalism is a good thing, especially if it includes a willingness to co-operate with other nations – creating bigger units but without the evils that come with total control from the centre.

  122. Cubby says:

    Third donation made. Get the books out there to all and sundry and get us out of this mad prison called the UK.

    The Battle of the Bastards.
    Who in their right mind would want to be governed by any of the 10 ignorant and arrogant bastards that the Tory party has spewed out. Not one has a clue about Scotland. Not one gives a monkeys about improving Scotland. They all see Scotland as a possession to hold on to – the golden goose of the UK.

    Ross “Handy” Thomson keeps popping up on the telly to say how great Bojo will be for Scotland. It’s long overdue someone asking him if he is doing class A drugs right now never mind in the past.

  123. Dr Jim says:

    When you look at Twitter the only British Nationalist patriots left in Scotland all seem to be Rangers supporters saying the same stuff over and over

    What is it with these people and their desire to be dominated by people in England who outvote them by ten to one and who won’t let their team play in the England league anyway, can’t they take a hint

    Odd bunch of people these Scottish Bringlish *Patriots*

  124. Dr Jim says:


    Have you checked the eyes on Ross Thompson I don’t think that’s sherbet, a bit of random testing in the HOC might expose quite a few

  125. Terry callachan says:

    Straight after the 2014 result Cameron introduced English votes for English questions and did so in a brazenly awful way causing howls of derision towards Scotland in Westminster.
    We deserved it , the first country ever to vote for another country to control its money its economy its everything and we chose England the worst choice possible just look at them now , what a cataclysmic mess awaits us at the mercy of a country so engrossed in its own entitlement.

    BORIS promises that he will reduce the highest income tax rates and pay for it by increasing NI conts.
    For Scotland this is an issue because NI conts are not devolved so Scottish people will pay the higher NI conts but unless the Scottish government reduces higher rate income taxes the Scottish people will be in the unenvious position where even their low earners will be paying increased NI conts to pay for Lower income tax for the rich in England.
    Some say it’s probably just a BORRIS GAFFE !
    Others say it’s meant as a kick in the teeth for Scotland’s audacity challenging brexit the way it has.

    There will be more and nobody is safe ,if Scotland votes NO again to Scottish independence you can be assured that England will increase its efforts to erase Scottish identity and culture and yes that will mean more English people in plum jobs in Scotland who give even more jobs to their compatriots it’s already happening but will accelerate.
    This is the time for Scotland to take back control of Scotland we have lost control of our own country to such a degree that our very identity our accent our language and history is derided by English people living in Scotland as well as those living in England.
    Yes our own Scottish people sneer and deride Scotland as well ,so called British nationalists ,we have to accept that there will always be a proportion who are stubborn who are just not smart enough to see what is happening and then there are those who just don’t care and those who have wealth and see keeping things just the way they are as their best Chance of keeping their wealth safe, every country has that but I still firmly believe we can get 60% if we can persuade the ex labour voters that there will be a Labour Party after Scottish independence, a Labour Party that will seek to uphold the values and promises once seen as the shining light guiding working people through life with a sincere honest hope of betterment for their children and their children’s children.
    This is going to be a real battle a high stakes battle, here’s hoping that the young people come out to vote in large numbers.

  126. call me dave says:

    @Dr Jim

    Was thinking about the fishing myself so soon after friendly reception the FM was given recently thought it strange.

    The games afoot on all sorts of levels. 🙂

    WM certainly don’t like these links and chats going on abroad by the FM.

  127. CameronB Brodie says:

    stu mac
    I suppose you could say I’m defining the two terms as being distinct to suit myself, but you’re perhaps forgetting I’m a clone of the white, liberal, feminist, intellectual conspiracy inheritance to our universal education system. 🙂

    True, there’s a lot of indiscipline in terminology used to describe the two (see me for example), though I think your description is pretty spot-on, i.e. “feelings and emotions that one might feel for a nation, while nationalism refers more to political beliefs”. This is where I’m coming from, not literally though. 😉

    Nationalism, Patriotism, and Group Loyalty: A Social Psychological Perspective

    The purpose of this essay is to introduce the reader to a social psychological perspective on the roots of nationalism. At its heart is the description of how individuals develop feelings about and attachments to groups – how they build loyalty to groups.

    The review explores how such loyalty can lead to hostile reactions to other groups, can become translated into stereotypes that are shared by individuals, can shape the collective behavior of groups, and can help differentiate the multiple groups that define any political environment.

  128. galamcennalath says:

    Orwell … “By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.”

    IMO, Orwell is muddled on the subject, blinded by his own conscious/subconscious belief in ‘British’ superiority.

  129. Cubby says:

    Dr Jim@10.48pm

    Exactly my thoughts.

  130. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. Britain is not “a” nation, it is a political union of nations. This is why it is not possible to be patriotic to Britain. One can only be patriotic to a nation and loyal to supra-national entities, such as the UK.

  131. Gary45% says:

    Some Tory nobody called McVey has reportedly spent £1,000s on getting mug shots taken at the expense of the dying and hungry.
    This is the standard Tory parasite in action, when ANYONE defends a Tory, tell them to hang their head in shame, or stronger words if you feel the need.
    I personally know some Tories, who have now died to me, there was always a bit of banter regarding theirs and my politics, those days have GONE.

  132. CameronB Brodie says:

    I agree, I think Orwell was muddled on a few things and blind to his only cultural prejudices, to an extent. I can’t really fault the passage you quote though. Patriotism is a concern with the well-being of one’s community. Nationalism is the belief that one’s community and culture are the best, and tends towards political dogmatism and territorial expansionism (see the full-English Brexit).

  133. manandboy says:

    One thing that Leadsome and all the other Unionist politicians will NOT say, is that in any future Independence Referendum, they will not interfere with it. That is how the Empire and the Union has been run from the beginning – interfere, manipulate, skew, lie about everything, and, where required, use force.

    To win Independence, Scotland may well need the help of the EU to counter English treachery and general dirty tricks.

  134. ElGordo says:

    @CameronB 11:19

    congrats! i actually read one of your posts 🙂 i have been self conditioned, now unthinking and fully automated, over many (many) months to scroll past, due to standard formatting – usual pasted indentation and obscure link.

    May just be me tho 🙂

  135. Capella says:

    The BBC Festival of Tory Britain continues. Colonel Davidson is now dictating what the Nicola Sturgeon can or can’t do.

    The UK government should only agree to a new Scottish independence referendum if the SNP wins a majority in the next election, Ruth Davidson has claimed.

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon insists she has a mandate for a new vote on independence, and says it would be wrong for UK ministers to block one.

    But the Scottish Conservative leader said only an “outright majority” for the SNP at Holyrood would be a mandate.

    BBC fails to mention that, under the De Hondt system, an outright majority is almost impossible. But they happily broadcast the latest political dross from the Ruth Davidson No Referendums Party.

  136. ElGordo says:

    Jesus, you startin too 😉

  137. CameronB Brodie says:

    Time for some Political Psychology on “methodological nationalism” and the definition of patriotism and nationalism? Think British nationalism, the Union Flag and the full-English Brexit. Full text.

    Sowing Patriotism, But Reaping Nationalism? Consequences of Exposure to the American Flag


    The American flag is a frequently displayed national symbol in the United States. Given its high visibility and importance, the present research examines the consequences of exposure to the flag on Americans’ sense of national attachment. We hypothesized that the flag would increase patriotism, defined as love and commitment to one’s country, and nationalism, defined as a sense of superiority over others.

    Two experimental studies supported the idea that the American flag increased nationalism, but not necessarily patriotism. The discussion focuses on the practices surrounding the American flag and its implications for the reproduction of American national identity.

    No one asks how many stars and stripes the average American is likely to encounter in the course of the day. Nor what is the effect of all this flagging. — Michael Billig (1995)

  138. CameronB Brodie says:

    Excellent. It’s a slog at time but someone has to do it, 😉

  139. ElGordo says:

    I’ll keep on flagging it anyways..

  140. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is self-made, critical, ‘punk’, media, after all. 🙂

  141. ElGordo says:

    I admire the energy and dedication. I’m sure it is appreciated by others on here. I personally just don’t have either the mental capacity or the time, i’ll work out which one it is when i have a minute.

  142. CameronB Brodie says:

    Btw, folk who think I’m just posting random links are simply exposing the fact they haven’t done the feckin’ recommended reading. Those who think the insight I’m pointing to is worthless, perhaps over-estimate their own intelligence.

  143. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 12 June, 2019 at 10:22 pm:

    The pieces fall into place? or coincidence?
    I don’t believe in political coincidence so……
    I think Nicola Sturgeon has done a very clever thing this last week after a wee visit and a chat with Leo Varadkar”

    Yes, Dr Jim, I do believe you are right and I posted to that effect yesterday.

    It just didn’t make sense for the FM to go picking a fight with the Republic when they are part of the EU that Scotland wants to stay on as a member. This after a nice wee visit to the republic to speak with them and visiting the EU leaders. Not the kind of daft move the FM is famous for making.

    I smelled something was not quite right when what followed was a rather pointless fall out over an uninhabitable bit of rock. It had the whiff of collaboration about it. We’ll just have to wait and see.

  144. CameronB Brodie says:

    Absolute mate, my last comment wasn’t direct at you, I understand my posts aren’t for everyone. It honestly isn’t a problem for me and I’m just glad you finally had a peek. 😉

  145. Graf Midgehunter says:

    The Germans are really clever buggers as everyone knows.

    Frankfurt’s airport closes every night due to noise protction laws which gives most people a decent kip at night.

    Depending on which way the wind blows, they turn the 4 runways on wheels round during the night so that they’re always facing the right direction for airplanes starting or even landing..! Dead brillant how they do it.

    “Vorsprung durch Technik”. 🙂

  146. geeo says:

    Spambot says: “Those who think the insight I’m pointing to is worthless, perhaps over-estimate their own intelligence”.

    Here it goes again, self proclaimed superior being.*(sigh)*

    Any sign of original thoughts there Brodie ?

    Nope, seems not.

    Shame, as i reckon your own views would be more interesting than the work of others you obsess over.

    Stop hiding behind ‘academic’ theory, shine via YOUR words.

  147. Robert Peffers says:

    @stu mac says: 12 June, 2019 at 10:40 pm:

    @CameronB Brodie says:
    12 June, 2019 at 10:14 pm

    Yes stu mac, I had just quoted the English language dictionary definitions and both dictionaries quoted plainly said each term was a synonym of the other and I do know what a synonym is defined as.

    However, it is quite pointless attempting to disagree with Brodie and his many quoted theories as he is always right, (cough!) – by his way of thinking.

    Just to clarify the matter :-

    noun: a word or phrase that has the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language:

    The words “small” and “little” are synonyms.

    This, just for a change from quoting the Oxford Dictionary, was quoted from the Cambridge Dictionary.

    (but of course both the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries could be wrong, I suppose).

  148. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think you might be over-estimating my abilities. Remember, I’m very, very, rusty. As far “spambot” goes, say that to my face at the next get together, if you dare.

  149. HandandShrimp says:

    Dr Jim

    Is he not just high on his own ambition? He has his eyes firmly on the Boris train and Fluffy’s job.

    What a ghastly combination those two would make!

  150. Dr. Jim/Robert Peffers

    Funniest thing I’ve seen all week was an interview with Bertie Armstrong t’other day about the so-called fishing dispute with the Irish over Rockall.

    He seemed rather sheepish and tried to sound belligerent whilst looking straight into the camera saying words to the effect that: –

    Well, Scotland has warned irish boats that this is our water and if they keep disobeying, we shall be forced to act and that will mean sending out a naval boat to stop them from fishing there, put them under arrest and bring them in.
    All the time, trying to look stern and serious.

    Something ‘fishy’ definitely going on here as there is NO way that Bertie Armstrong and Nicola would ever be on the same side of an argument.

  151. geeo says:

    Spambot says:

    “Say that to my face, i dare you”

    Ah…now i see why you never post original thought!!

    Tell me, what would you do if i did, Cameron, quote me to death ?

    Serious question.

  152. mr thms says:

    #Meg merrilees @ 12:44 am

    This was published on the 2nd July 2017

    “The London Fisheries Convention, signed in 1964 before the UK joined the European Union, allows vessels from five European countries to fish within six and 12 nautical miles of the UK’s coastline. It sits alongside the EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP), which allows all European vessels access between 12 and 200 nautical miles of the UK and sets quotas for how much fish each nation can catch.

    On Monday the UK will notify the other Member States signed up to the London Fisheries Convention, triggering a two-year withdrawal period – in a similar way to the Article 50 letter which began a two-year withdrawal from the EU.”

    The Wikipedia entry says –

    “The UK denounced the convention on 3 July 2017, effective 2 years later or (if that is on a later date) upon Brexit.”

  153. CameronB Brodie says:

    How can I answer a hypothetical question with any certainty? Why not find out?

  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    What exactly is your frame of reference, if that isn’t a personal question?

    Introduction: Theory and Theories in Morphology

  155. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve also got a bit of this under my belt. I “spambot” you ya cheeky twat.

    Dialogic Multicultural Education Theory and Praxis:
    Dialogue and the Problems of Multicultural Education in a Pluralistic Society

  156. CameronB Brodie says:

    There’s me getting triggered by fuckwittery and not looking at what I’m posting. Not that kind of morphology, this kind.

    Cultural Morphology and the Comparative Study of Cultures in the Shaping of Political Communities

  157. geeo says:


    I was right, trying to bore me to death.

    Its not hypothetical, you made a veiled threat, so i asked what would you do.

    Do not make threats you cannot back up.

  158. CameronB Brodie says:

    Why do you try to undermine my contribution? Away an take your face for a walk you boring prick.

  159. CameronB Brodie says:

    Unless you’ve figured out my buttons and are pressing them to good effect. In which case, you’re a bit of a political operator. 😉

    Political Culture and Democratic Homeostasis:
    A Critical Review of Gabriel Almond and Sidney Verba’s The Civic Culture

    This précis provides an overview of Gabriel Almond and Sidney Verba’s The Civic Culture: Political Attitudes and Democracy in Five Nations.1 It begins by situating the work squarely within the structural functionalist tradition
    and proceeds to summarize Almond and Verba’s argument and evidence. It then notes how their evidence from Italy aligns with the findings of Edward Banfield (1958). It concludes by highlighting some weaknesses of Almond
    and Verba’s structural functionalist approach and by providing a few questions for class discussion.

  160. CameronB Brodie says:

    And don’t think it escaped my notice that you portry my invitation to be a cheeky twat to my faces, as a threat. Do you really want to start playing mind games with me?

  161. Patrick Roden says:

    Re fishing:

    I think this is an important ‘battle’ that the SNP have chosen to fight.

    Fishing rights have become part of the political argument as to who best looks after Scotland’s interests.

    If the Scottish government warn Ireland to stay out of our waters and the Irish ignore us, what can we do?

    Not a flipping jot, as we have no control whatsoever on whether the Royal navy will send out a protection vessel to enforce Scotland’s fishing rights.

    It seems a political game is afoot, in which the SNP has yet again painted the UK government into a corner and told them to put there money where their mouth is.

    Better Together?

    Then Prove It!

  162. CameronB Brodie says:

    Always ask for proof to identify the feasible from fantasy.

    Civic culture and democracy: The question of causal relationships


    A causal model of relationships between structural properties of states, civic culture attitudes of the general public, and change in level of democracy is tested with cross-national data. The model permits inferences about the possibility of unidirectional or reciprocal causation between civic culture attitudes and democracy, controlling for macrosocietal variables such as economic development, income inequality, and subcultural pluralism.

    Most civic culture attitudes do not have any significant impact on change in democracy. One of them, interpersonal trust, appears clearly to be an effect rather than a cause of democracy. The exception is the percentage of the general public that prefers gradual reform of society instead of revolutionary change or intransigent defense of the status quo. Support for gradual reform has a positive impact on change in democracy, and it is unrelated to a country’s years of continuous democracy–findings that support the hypothesis of a unidirectional civic culture effect on democracy.

  163. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve no time for racists or bigots, I’m not a woke gimp. I’ll tolerate resistance to education though because I know a bit about educational psychology and stuff. However, it would be irrational and unethical for me not to try an point folk in the right direction. For those who are hard of understanding, that’s the opposite direction the New Right want to take us. That way lies even deeper structural inefficiencies in government and a diminished potential for resilient, open, civic, democratic, society.

    Civic Culture and Government Performance in the American States

    In a recent study, Robert D. Putnam reported a strong relationship between civic culture and government performance among the newly empowered regions of Italy. This article extends Putnam’s methodology to the American states.

    Using similar techniques, we construct indices of civic culture and government performance for the states. When correlated, the results reveal a clear link between civicness and performance. States that are more civic lend to have governments that enact more liberal and innovative policies. This relationship between civicness and performance remains strong even after controlling for political culture, ideology, education, and other factors.

  164. Willie says:

    I can’t find any more elegant words than to say fuck Leadsom and all the rest of them who would deny people the right to a democratic expression of wish.

    Seriously, if they don’t do democracy then folks need to do something else. And yes, in the USA the reason that guns were written into their constitution was in recognition of the fact that governments ( like English governments ?) could turn against the people.

    The guns thing in the USA has turned out a horror story, but if there was a swing of real opposition to rotten governance, the current holocaust could get worse.

    Let us hope that this never happens here, but one only need look back to the Troubles in NI to realise just how possible it is for a democratic deficit to presage total and utter mayhem.

  165. Golfnut says:

    @ Patrick Roden & Meg Merrilees.

    I agree Patrick, this is a political battle the SNP have chosen to fight, although the SG provide our own Fisheries Protection vessels, they are not armed and would be no match for Armed Irish Patrol vessels should they choose belligerence over diplomacy. No, this is about putting Westminster on the spot, Armstong at least recognises how this could undermine his position supporting the Union.

  166. Breeks says:

    Patrick Roden says:
    13 June, 2019 at 3:15 am
    Re fishing:

    I think this is an important ‘battle’ that the SNP have chosen to fight.

    Fishing rights have become part of the political argument as to who best looks after Scotland’s interests.

    If the Scottish government warn Ireland to stay out of our waters and the Irish ignore us, what can we do?…

    You may or may not be right, but there’s a tiresome sense of demoralisation attached to taking on battles to illustrate Scotland’s weakness, particularly when there is no reciprocal enthusiasm to fight Scotland’s corner on Scotland’s strengths, and in particular the strongest possible constitutional grounds.

    There is something profoundly enigmatic about the battles the Scottish Government will fight, and those it simply refuses to touch, and equally tiresome is the typically subjective interpretations given out by way of apologist explanation.

    It’s like the Roman Soldiers searching the house in The Life of Brian; they can’t find the Jews hiding in a single room with such cunning disguises as a lampshade on their head, but march out triumphantly declaring “We found this spoon Sir”. But then we are treated to the same voices telling us we’ve no right to be concerned because the finding of spoons is all a central part of the masterplan to secure Independence.

    There is no possible argument which Scotland might choose to dispute with our cousins in Ireland, and Ireland in Europe, which even if it was serious, could not be put on ice for 18 months until after Scotland has navigated its route through the Brexit debacle, and made secure our Sovereign Independence and EU Membership. Prior to achieving those fundamental objectives, I find myself bound to ask what the fk we are playing at picking a fight with Ireland, and now of all times.

    No more spoons please. I want meaningful and substantive progress on the defence and emancipation of Scotland’s Constitutional integrity, not some crummy Pyrrhic victory in a pointless and unnecessary spat with Ireland over fishing.

  167. skintybroko says:

    O/T Is it just me or does the Ruth Davidson Candidate for Tory leader look like Yoda?

  168. Bobp says:

    TC 10.48pm. My own personal thoughts exactly. If scotland votes to reject a 2nd independence referendum, then i believe its game over and we will then be assimilated into greater england our parliament nation and culture extinguished forever. This is definitely last chance saloon.

  169. Ken500 says:

    Another fishy story. The only one’s involved Bertie Armstrong and the Herald. Neil MacKay at it again. What a load of rubbish.

    The fishermen should put their own house in order. Stop discarding fish. Use bigger nets. Have better conditions etc. Youngsters will not go into the industry if there is other work. Fishing industry rely on migrant labour and the EU markets.

    The Scottish economy would lose £8Billion+ because of Brexit. Gain £200K from fishing.

    It is the UK Gov which takes money out of Scotland. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The EU costs Scotland nothing and only brings benefits,

    The Tories are finished in any case.

  170. Petra says:

    Breeks have you ever thought of applying for a job with one of the Unionist supporting newspapers?


    Professor John Robertson:- ‘Scotsman headline blames Scottish Ministers when it should blame Westminster.’


    Additional articles.

  171. Nana says:


    Were this Scottish constitution to be adopted, it would not only guarantee political rights like the freedom of speech, religion, and the press, but also economic rights such as health, education, and housing
    Link to crowdfunder here

    FM says Boris as PM a “horrifying prospect”

    Ian Blackford says
    “The state of politics in this place is humiliating, the Tory leadership race is a total horror show”

  172. Nana says:

    BBC stops free TV Licence for the over 75’s including the WW11 war hero’s, but its okay to pay these unbelievable salaries.

    Our toxic political system rewards all the wrong traits and produces the worst possible leaders

    UK accused of ‘silently eroding’ EU pesticide rules in Brexit laws

  173. Nana says:

    Warning, your blood pressure will go up

    Use translator to read how the French view Boris the buffoon
    His entry at 10 Downing Sreet would be a calamity for his country and for Europe.

    Story about Boris

  174. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana. I’ll take a look at them later.


    ‘Ian Blackford slams Labour MPs unforgivable No Deal Brexit vote move.’

  175. Abulhaq says:

    Some info on Davidson’s friend from Wiki:
    Philosopher and theologian John Milbank commented, “It is extraordinarily disturbing that any mainstream politician should express any admiration for Ayn Rand. We should be concerned that someone like Sajid Javid can now hold high office within the United Kingdom”.

    Javid has been a regular attendee and speaker at US neoconservative thinktank American Enterprise Institute’s (AEI) annual conference, whose members include Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and John Bolton. Javid has consistently supported foreign military intervention, having voted for intervening in Gaddafi’s Libya, as well as air strikes in Iraq and Syria.

    One might assume she has no problems with the above. Scotland beware!

  176. Sinky says:

    Another aggressive interview by Hayley Millar on BBC GMS at 8.10 am constantly interrupting John Swinney over North Lanarkshire’s blue water schools (built under Labour’s PFI?) problem.

  177. Breeks says:

    Petra says:
    13 June, 2019 at 8:05 am
    Breeks have you ever thought of applying for a job with one of the Unionist supporting newspapers?

    Oh I’m sorry Petra, please do go ahead and explain why a spat with Ireland over fishing 4 months before Brexit is going help Scotland avoid Brexit and stay in the EU.

    I’m all ears.

  178. Footsoldier says:

    Ruth Davidson makes statement and BBC gives prominence but as usual HYS remain double bolted closed.

  179. Capella says:

    Sajid Javid said on a radio interview this morning that he has already signed off on extraditing Julian Assange to US. Courts still to decide. Javid is glad that Assange is behind bars because he committed a crime in Britain.
    Looking forward to others who have committed crimes to be behind bars soon i.e. almost all of the Tory Party leadership contestants.

  180. Dr Jim says:

    As all of us know obtaining a majority in the Scottish parliament is dependent pretty much on a fluke because it’s a proportional representational parliament, so when Ruth Davidson demands that the SNP win a majority before being allowed to *ask* for an Independence referendum is a nonsense

    If the SNP did win a majority at Holyrood the the first thing Davidson would be bleating about is another one of her favourite expressions *The SNP are ramming through unwanted legislation*

    Now in the case of an Independence referendum does not the fact that the Green Party happen to agree with the governing party make any legislation more consensual, not less, which was the very reason proportional representaion in the parliament was designed to do

    Ruth Davidson is a small cog in a party who can’t win an election in Scotland yet the British media in Scotland present her as credible on anything she happens to say when in fact as a politician she’s a dreadful example of a human being who argues black is white on a daily basis depending on her instructions from Westminster

    Ruth Davidson’s party has threatened to prorogue the House of Commons in order to bypass the actual democracy of that parliament (such as it is) and yet she has the temerity to utter the word democracy and the demanding of her version of it in the Scottish parliament

    We don’t need politicians from the dark ages of dictatorship in our Scottish parliament who make up rules on the hoof to suit themselves, a trait that Ruth Davidson and Boris Johnson share in abundance, the Conservative and Unionist party may think and feel it’s their God given right to rule in England and if the people there are daft enought to fall for it that’s their problem but Scotland can and must do without this style of governance from the past

    The British media in Scotland must stop treating Ruth Davidson as if she counts for something, when Kezia Dugdale was the opposition they didn’t seem to consider her credible yet even when Davidson was in third place she was still the go to person for one of her wee political lectures,in fact all the indicators are that Ruth Davidson would lose her seat at the next General election unless she swaps seats with Murdo Fraser who’s never won a seat ever in the Scottish parliament but umpteen elections later he’s still sitting there, all this from a politician who fails to win any elections in the country in which she stands

  181. naina tal says:

    Sinky at 8:38
    Heard that John Swinney “interview” too. In my view one of the worst examples of interviewing technique I have heard. She continually hectored, interrupted and put her own point of view.

    BBC interviewers all seem to imagine that this is how they need to go about their business. If you can find a recording of an interview from, say the 1970s, you’ll see a huge difference. Back then, the interviewer asked their question, allowed time for an answer, then perhaps followed up with a supplementary question.

    Come on BBC let us hear what the likes of Mr Swinney has to say, then we can make up our own minds. Or is that what you fear?

  182. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Nana.

    Thank you, for your links.

    I sold a house yesterday so I’ve put another donation into the crowdfund.
    D&G Council will go apeshit when they find out!
    Gimme a country where I can be free
    Don’t need the unions buryin’ me
    Keep me in exile the rest of my days
    Burn me in Hell but as long as it pays

    Kettle’s on!
    Sorry, Rev Stu, I’m out of practice and left the https bit on when I first posted this.

  183. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dr jim , The Tank Commander does not have a seat in Westminster!!!

  184. Lenny Hartley says:

    Smallaxe, what a lift to see you posting again, hope your as well as can be.
    All the best.

  185. Nana says:

    Morning Smallaxe, does my heart good to see that avatar 🙂

    Just in case anyone missed them, links were posted yesterday on previous thread, videos included.

    From now on due to other commitments, links may be a bit sparse but I will post when I’m able to.

  186. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Thanks for posting that Le Monde editorial on Boris. Whoever wrote it did not miss him and hit the wall.



    Back in the 1950s and 1960s when The Eagle was the comic of choice for the more-intelligent Baby Boomers, the front page was always Dan Dare – Pilot of the Future whose arch-enemy was The Mekon, a little green man, with an enormous head, who moved around crouched on a small flying saucer.

    Every time I see a picture of “The Saj”, I see The Mekon.

  187. Footsoldier says:

    “Davidson rewrites history on indy ref2” is the National headline today – what does that mean to the Unionist non purchasing passer by who sees it?

  188. winifred mccartney says:

    So Boris uses Ruthie’s trick of going into hiding when the going gets tough and Ruth uses Javid’s press call to decry Scotland once more and decry the Nationalists. No mention at all of her ‘no surrender’ orange brigade. She should be supporting Boris since the two of them have so much in common, changing history to suit themselves but mostly that you would not trust either of them to walk your dog. The bbc is complicit with both of them – they are not interviewed they just gave uninterrupted statements.

  189. gus1940 says:


    Yes the Mekon and his fellow Treens were the bad guys but the Therons were the good guys.

    I have an unfortunately badly mutilated copy of the 1st Edition of The Eagle and have often wondered if in its poor state it would be worth anything.

    On a more serious note The Scotsman for the nth time have ‘improved’ their on-line offering and ‘No laughing at the back’ now want readers to actually part with money to access their content together with the insane hysterical rantings of their resident BTL swivel eyed loonies.

  190. galamcennalath says:

    winifred mccartney says:

    you would not trust either of them to walk your dog

    Walk our beloved dog!? A member of our family. A companion and provider of much mirth. No way would they get near her.

    I wouldn’t trust either of them to clean up after any dog they were allowed to walk!

    They strike me as the type who would sneak away leaving turd in the kid’s play area.

  191. Nana says:

    Morning Socrates, you are welcome. I spotted a few foreign press articles along similar lines. No fawning over the Tory contenders unlike some of the UK’s journalists.

    Chinese ambassador warns Britain over blocking Huawei

    Parliament is out of options to stop no-deal Brexit – Oliver Letwin

    This toast story much more a reason for why Boris Johnson is unfit to be PM than any drug taking.

    That’s all for now

  192. manandboy says:


    The TV Licence. I see the sense in a Driving Licence, and a Gun Licence, even a Fishing Licence. But a licence to watch TV? Don’t think so. It’s a scam, let’s face it. It’s a Tax. Pure and simple.
    Furthermore, it is the UK Government which collects the ‘TV Licence’ money. It is the UK Government which runs the BBC, like it runs HMRC or the DVLA. The BBC is a vital part of the British Establishment, which depends on propaganda/brainwashing/indoctrination of the general public to maintain its position of privilege and entitlement in a society claiming to be democratic. Imagine paying £150 a year voluntarily for your own indoctrination. That’s the power of propaganda – getting 60 million people believing in the necessity of having a licence to watch TV, and to use daily the UK’s most effective and addictive, mind-altering drug.

    You couldn’t make it up.

  193. Fireproofjim says:

    OT Gus1940
    Put your Eagle comic on Ebay and see what happens.
    I put an old Oor Wullie Annual, from about 1945, on EBay, It was really tattered and it made £55.
    Collectors like to fill the gaps in their collections, even if condition is poor.

  194. Skintybroko says:

    Hi Socrates – t’was the Hornet for me back in the day so can’t comment on the likeness of the Mekon but appears we are on the same wavelength

  195. Smallaxe says:

    Lenny Hartley;

    I’m doing okay, Lenny, thanks’ for asking. I’m still getting up to mischief where and when I’m able!

  196. manandboy says:

    A surgical assessment of where England is politically right now by Rafael Baer. The camera doesn’t lie, nor does this snapshot. To get a clear picture, just click, and listen for 96 seconds.

  197. Marie Clark says:

    Nana, we’ve all missed you here, great to see you posting again. Many thanks for all your links, they’re very informative.

    Smallaxe, nice to see you posting again too. Hope you’re doing okay at the moment. You’re really missed, especially over on OT, it’s kinda dead over there at the moment.

  198. Ken500 says:

    Unionist councils do not provide proper drink/drug facilities. Proper total abstinence rehab facilities. They do not fund essential services. They build grotesque monstrosities no one wants. Cost £200Million Empty shops,offices and under occupied hotels. An absolute total mess. Instead of pedestrianisation and open spaces. They refused a gift of £80Million UTG Project that would have cost £20Million and pedestrianised the City. ACC kept in place by a two job Tory and a renege LibDem.

    £300Million on a Conference Centre which will sit empty most of the time. Not funding education and essential services. A total disgrace. Teachers short and too high class room sizes.

  199. Welsh Sion says:

    Amidst all the hoo-ha Tory Leadership election, you may have missed this. Another step forward.

  200. Dr Jim says:

    As we know HM the Queen’s in charge of nothing but the latest wheeze of the Tories is that they can prorogue the UK parliament to get Brexit through but that requires the signature of the Queen to do it, given that what they’re asking the Queen to do is to effect a political decision to which she’s not supposed to be any part of one wonders what the situation might be should the Queen exercise the only power she has by refusing to sign

    Or does the Queen not even have control of her own signature

    Because if the Queen did sign such a political document given that the country she’s the Queen of (England) is split down the middle vociferously over the question of Brexit would that not make the Queen then just as politically distasteful to remainers as those remainers feel about the Brexiters and would the Queen be happy about cutting what might be her own popularity in half by involving herself in that kind of folly

    I think if I were the Queen i’d be popping a letter in the post right now stating quite clearly *whenever you want me to sign my own unpopularity document i’ll not be at home thanks very much*

    HM her Maj Queenie, don’t call me Brenda

  201. Legerwood says:


    Thank you for the links. Good to see you back albeit briefly but post the occasional hello so we know you are OK.

    And Smallaxe too – a double bonus.

  202. manandboy says:

    A day will come, when the whole idea of Empire through invasion and colonisation will be completely discredited. Empire will then be seen for what it truly is, viz, a more efficient and more lucrative version of The Slave Trade. Stripping away the Imperial, but false, justification for England’s aggressive colonisation, it is plain to see that it was all about asset-stripping. Or, more simply, stealing on a global scale.

    And it hasn’t stopped, merely adapted to the changes in how business is done in a computerised, digital world, in the same way that a burglar who used to visit your house by the back door or window, will now visit your bank account by means of the Internet. The English Establishment is an Imperial burglar in the digital style, with his favourite target being Scotland – Westminster’s northern Cash Cow.

    Wake up Scotland. Check your bank accounts, especially the one with all the transfers of oil and money to the UK Treasury.

  203. manandboy says:

    Alternatively, Wake up Scotland. Check your bank accounts, especially the one with all the transfers of oil and gas money to the UK Treasury.

  204. Dr Jim says:

    Ruth Davidson has urged Sajid Javid if he wins the vote to be the next Prime Minister to bypass the Scottish parliament on finance and budget so that Ruth Davidson can decide what’s spent in Scotland and on what and basically never leave her house

    She’s a democrat you know, she keeps telling everybody

    Even the Daily Record’s not delighted with her latest statement and they don’t like Holyrood, well Davie Clegg doesn’t

  205. Arthur C says:

    Hi Nana
    Just venturing out of the lurkers cave to say thanks for all your informative links.
    Not wishing to put any pressure on you, but this BTL place is so much less interesting when you are working on your other priorities.
    Good to see some of the old posters back, looks like the gang is getting back together for the big push.

  206. kapelmeister says:

    By her latest statements Ruth Davidson is showing herself as the insanely ambitious authoritarian she is. We in the independence movement have long known this. It’s now becoming clearer to many others.

  207. Bill Hume says:

    Arthur C @ 11:00 am
    The boys (and girls) are back in town…….and up for IndyRef2.

  208. Cubby says:


    Exactly. Tories are tough on crime except when it involves a Tory criminal. In the UK the lesson to be learned is that if you want to avoid prosecution and achieve forgiveness without any punishment then CLAIM TO BE A TORY.

    A good career move for criminals would be to join the Tory party.

  209. Mike cassidy says:


    I do hope Jo Brand gets a new show to tour out of the right’s ‘disgust’ at her milkshake joke.

    Jo Brand – Acid Tongue

  210. David P says:

    Does anyone have an archive of Ruth Davidson’s piece in The Herald from 12th June 2019?

    The headline is typical RD, ie brazenly over-the-top, appallingly personalised and borderline anti-democratic – “Nicola Sturgeon must win Holyrood majority to negotiate Indyref2” – but who knows?

    Maybe tucked within the article there may be some semblance of rationality and sense. I’m curious to check and see.

    Many thanks to the Winger(s) who can assist with this small request.

  211. gus1940 says:


    I see that there have been more mine attacks on tankers in The Gulf.

    Given the troubles in the Gulf over many decades and the fact the The Straits of Hormuz are a dangerous bottleneck I have never been able to understand why an oil terminal has not been constructed on the coast of The Red Sea connected by pipeline(s) to the various Gulf State oilfields.

    It probably suits The US to keep the situation as is so that they can maintain their forces there to continue their decade long mischief.

    Re responsible it has been suggested that Iran is responsible without any evidence thereof – my money is on Mossad.

  212. galamcennalath says:

    Cubby says:

    Tories are tough on crime except when it involves a Tory criminal.

    I genuinely think it’s another feudal remnant. Those with privilege and power made the laws and excercised them to keep commoners controlled and in their place. Plunder, murder, r8pe, paedophilia, thievery they themselves could do with impunity because they could only be held to account by their peers, who were all ‘at it’.

    These notions clearly still exist within the Establishment elite. Laws are still for the ‘little people’ in the eyes of some.

    iScotland needs to sweep all this away.

  213. Smallaxe says:

    David P; Is this what you’re after, David

    Marie Clarke, some tunes now on O/T.

    Hi, Legerwood.

  214. Baldeagle58 says:

    Hi Nana and Smallaxe

    Welcome back. 🙂
    You have both been missed.

    Hope you’re both keeping well.

  215. galamcennalath says:

    gus1940 says:

    attacks on tankers in The Gulf

    Two carrying Japanese cargos. At the same time Japan is having high level talks with Iran.

    You couldn’t even try to suss out what’s going on, who’s responsible, and why.

    There’s no reliable information and there’s unlikely to be given the huge state propaganda machines, and a corrupt ‘free’ media.

    This could all blow up into a full shooting war and we will be fed a story to justify it. All the UK media will fall into line and stick to an agenda. We won’t have a clue who is really the instigator.

  216. David P says:

    Smallaxe – yes it is. Many thanks for your help.

    Now let’s see if there’s a shred of sanity in the article…

    My gut feel? Probably not.

  217. kapelmeister says:

    Davidson is openly calling for the new Tory PM to disempower the Scottish Parliament and make her the unelected de facto First Minister of Scotland.

    In which role she would be assisted by her band of Orange Order, racist morons that she infiltrated into the Scottish Tories.

  218. Smallaxe says:

    Hi, Baldeagle58;

    If I told you what Nana and I do when we’re not on Wings I’d have to kill you!

    Peace and Love to you and All Wingers.

    Some of you lurkers who haven’t donated to the crowdfunding please give a little (or a lot). Mony a mickle maks a muckle!

  219. Meindevon says:

    Welcome Arthur C. You’re not wrong. Nana always makes my day!

  220. Dorothy Devine says:

    Nana links and Smallaxe comments – life has just got better!

  221. gus1940 says:


    It’s not just The Eagle.

    When I was a boy I used to get both The Dandy and The Beano.

    The period covered was from 1945 to around 1950 when I graduated to The Rover and the adventures of I Flew With Braddock.

    Initially the 2 comics were fortnightly coming out on alternate weeks but later both were weekly on tuesdays and thursdays.

    Who can forget Eggo The Ostrich, Biffo The Bear, Lord Snooty, Keyhole Kate, Freddy The Fearless Fly, Hungry Horace, Nero and Zero and of course Desperate Dan.

    They also had picture stories with text beneath each picture and series I remember were Jimmy and His Magic Patch, a guy with a Magical Mechanical Fish and Andrew Glen the shepherd and his faithful collie Black Bob.

    Being an inveterate hoarder all my life I never threw any of them out.

    However, in 1959 we moved house and my dad threw them all out along with several Broons and Oor Wullie Annuals and a near complete set of wartime Aircraft Recognition Magazines.

    I hate to think what that little lot would be worth nowadays.

  222. stu mac says:

    @gus1940 says:
    13 June, 2019 at 11:33 am

    I see that there have been more mine attacks on tankers in The Gulf.[edit]

    It probably suits The US to keep the situation as is so that they can maintain their forces there to continue their decade long mischief. Re responsible it has been suggested that Iran is responsible without any evidence thereof – my money is on Mossad.

    Yes, with a nod and a wink from the CIA no doubt.

  223. Socrates MacSporran says:

    As an old “hot metal” journalist, I have repeatedly railed against the over-promoted wee nyaffs who are now driving desks on our newspapers.

    The biggest single party bloc in Holyrood is the SNP, with 63 MSPs.

    In coallition with the Scottish Greens’ 6 MSPs, they have secured a Holyrood mandate to hold Indyref2.

    The biggest single party bloc of Scottish MPs in the Westminster House of Commons is the SNP group – they form a majority of Scottish MPs, holding 35 of the 59 Scottish seats – 59.3%.

    What part of democracy does Ruth Davidson not understand? The SNP has a triple-locked mandate to hold Indyref2. But, of course, for Ruth Davidson, a member of the Scottish Parliament, decisions regarding Scotland are best taken by English MPs, in London – provided, of course, these decisions are taken by a Tory government.

  224. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Damn old age, lost the thread there.

    I meant to add, in my last post. The journalists listening to Colonel Yadaftie and not taking her to task, let themselves and their profession down, but, not as much as the desk jockeys, who did not kick ass for them NOT questioning the good Colonel more-fully.

    But, as we know, today’s Scottish mainstream media is more-interested in shouting SNP BAADD!! than in holding the Unionist parties to account for their anti-Scotland agenda.

  225. North chiel says:

    “ Kapelmeister @ 1157” .Should Holyrood now “ withdraw all diplomatic support” ( as well as no doubt the many other privileges , expenses etc etc.) from Davidson , as she is openly now canvassing to undermine the Holyrood parliament , an institution of which she is a member ?

  226. David P says:

    As I suspected.

    Half-truths, obfuscation, and shocking levels of personalisation in Ms. Davidson’s article. All aimed at shoring up support for the withholding of “permission” for a referendum on independence for Scotland.

    It’s worse than nonsense. It’s an attempt to build consensus for totalitarianism –
    and she knows it.

    Those who believe in democracy would subscribe to something as simple as this:

    “… if the Greens, and the SNP, get over the line and can make a coalition … make a majority … in the parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum.

    That’s what democracy’s all about… It’s perfectly simple.

    As spoken by – Ruth Davidson!

  227. Jfngw says:

    What Ruth Davidson is proposing is effectively a coup against the elected Scottish Government. She effectively wants control of Holyrood spending to be controlled by London and herself to be the ‘Vichy’ mouthpiece of the Tories in Scotland.

    This makes Indyref even more imperative, if not Scotland will be controlled by Davidson & Mundell and a party that has never held a majority here since 1955.

  228. Jfngw says:

    Ruth Davidson demands we respect referendums as she systematically undermines the devolution referendum and demands Westmiinster reverses this overwhelming vote by Scotland.

    This person is no democrat and has no place in a democratic institution.

  229. mr thms says:

    This is untrue

    And the response by the Scottish government always omits crucial facts relevant to the debate.

    I posted links in my last post on here.

    In July 2017, just months after the PM invoked Article 50 in March 2017, the UK government gave notice to all the other signatories of the 1964 London Fisheries Convention that it would leaving in two years or on Brexit day whichever date was later.

    As a result of the UK government’s decision the right to fish between the 6 and 12 mile zone of UK territorial ceases.

    While the two year notice ends at the beginning of July 2019, it will now be on Brexit day which is currently the 31st October 2019.

  230. Gary45% says:

    Hey Mr Axe, Good to see your “still Rockin”.
    Also Nana’s links, Nice One.

  231. schrodingers cat says:

    Boris Johnson – 114

    Jeremy Hunt – 43

    Michael Gove – 37

    Dominic Raab – 27

    Sajid Javid – 23

    Matt Hancock – 20

    Mark Harper – 10

    Rory Stewart – 19

    Esther McVey – 9

    Andrea Leadsom – 11

    bojo now a racing certainty

  232. Abulhaq says:

    Davidson is archetypical of the modern Toryism, a mixture of economic and social liberalism/libertarianism and nationalist-centrism, both fundamentally authoritarian in praxis. Ayn Rand resurrected.
    No doubt she and Javid would cheer the sabre rattling in the Gulf. They couldn’t do better than send R2D2 to the Sa3udi fiefdom and the Gulf to rouse the locals into another Sunni Arab-Iran war.
    Scotland must wash itself clean of this neo-imperialist malignancy.

  233. schrodingers cat says:

    Mark Harper – 10
    Esther McVey – 9
    Andrea Leadsom – 11

    30 votes now up for grabs

    Boris Johnson – 114
    Jeremy Hunt – 43
    Michael Gove – 37
    Dominic Raab – 27
    Sajid Javid – 23
    Matt Hancock – 20
    Rory Stewart – 19

  234. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 13:12,

    Yes, unless there’s a surprising shift toward some “also-ran” such as Rory, it looks like Boris v Jeremy. (Sucks then Ruthie for your support of “Mr. No”.)

    So BoJo for PM, then…?

  235. Dr Jim says:

    @mr thms 12:56pm

    I posted earlier that I don’t believe this is a dispute between Scotland and Ireland I believe it’s about pointing out to the EU who’s waters these will be following Independence so take Scotland seriously in our endeavours over Independence because Scotland is who you’ll be dealing with, so with that in mind the FM then visits EU leaders and has her private talks

    I don’t think for one second that Scotland is interested in preventing Ireland fishing or intends to, I believe it’s all political maneuvering for the next move with the EU

  236. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    So BoJo for PM, then…?


    yes, the only way to stop this was for the tory mps to chose 2 other candidates to be put forward to the membership ballot, that cant happen now so the only question which remains is who will be the other candidate in the final ballot.

    bojo is the favourite with the actual members, by a country mile. remember his conservative home speech at the last tory conference?

    commentators have already moved on to the question of whether or not bojo will call a ge before or after a vonc in the hoc. opinion is swinging behind before.

    as i have been saying for ages, we will need the wbb2 for this ge, why? because, by that point, the scottish electorate will know definitively what brexit means.

    this ge will be the brexit ge, it will be the only issue up for grabs, and our manifesto should be a full scale assault for an independent scotland

  237. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 13 June, 2019 at 1:24 pm:

    … So BoJo for PM, then…?”

    I may be wrong but I believe the real fun will begin after the elected Tory idiots have whittled it down to two and the choice between the two is thrown open to the rank & file membership.

    I believe the Tory party is writing their own death warrant just now. There’s bound to be a backlash and it won’t be pretty to watch.

    Mind you Labour are hardly in a position to do better and if both are rejected by betrayed Englanders what then for Westminster? Tories brought on Brexit but only Labour could have stopped it with a vote of no confidence in the government so when the smelly stuff hits the ventilation equipment why will the English voters turn to and more importantly who will they turn against?

  238. galamcennalath says:

    If Boris can keeps those votes he’s guaranteed to be in the final two, which probably means he’s won.

    Of course, some backing him at this stage could change their minds!

    It’s now an all male list.

    The media have been giving a lot of attention to McVey and Leadsom. Why, when a bit of research would have shown they were no hopers? Because they were women? Or, because they were extreme and outspoken?

  239. manandboy says:


    Ruth Davidson MSP is little more than a playground bully who craves attention and status and whose principal role is to carry out the propaganda objectives of the British political Establishment, which is to prevent Scottish Independence – by any means whatsoever.

    To this end, and with a meagre 11.9% of votes in the recent EU elections, but with the full support of the Donalda MacKinnon-run BBC Scotland, together with almost all of the Scottish print media, Ms Davidson parrots ad nauseam, the threats, warnings, lies and abuse of the British Nationalist and Unionist Tory Government in Whitehall, while displaying complete and callous indifference to the needs of the Scottish people or to their democratic rights.

    The sooner Scotland is Independent, the better.

    Ps. A suspicion hangs over Ruth Davidson, that ‘dark money’ is never far away when a public vote is required. Irrespective, she is precisely the kind of politician that Scotland can well do without.

  240. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Breeks,

    I’m not sure what your overall point was in the comment you made in response to mine about fishing rights, but I think you certainly misunderstood my point.

    If I understood your point correctly, you seemed to suggest that the Sottish Government need to forget all other ‘political battles’ and concentrate only on constitutional matters.

    However, The way to win a war, is to win the many individual battles that need to be won, in that campaign.

    One of the many political battles that has been raging for the past few years and formed part of the first referendum was Scotland’s fishing rights and who would protect them better, Scotland’s own people or the ‘might’ of Westminster/British Navy.

    We do not have control of the Navy, so if anyone fishes in our waters and ignore warnings to leave, it would be Westminster who would decide if Scotland’s fishing communities are important enough to defend.

    Of course Westminster needs the good will of the Irish government as well as the EU governments going into Brexit, so don’t want any military action getting in the way of negotiations that may effect wealth of the South of England.

    This is a very astute battle to fight as it gives the Westminster Parliament the choice of defending Scotland’s fishing communities, or turning a blind eye.

    It’s a ‘win win’ battle for the SNP, and there’s no better negotiating strategy out there, than to get yourself into a ‘win win’ situation.

  241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dr Jim @ 13:29

    I think you could well be right. We might on the whole prefer to remain in the EU, but we’re not going to sell ourselves cheap to do so. It is going to be an entirely different relationship than our current subservient one with the UK.

    It also plays to the fishing constituency in the NE, to assure them that the SG/SNP won’t casually sacrifice their interests in reaching agreement like the Tories did back when.

  242. Ottomanboi says:

    Plainly Scotland’s finest haven’t enough to occupy them.
    How to kill time in taxonomic flights of irrational social engineering.

  243. geeo says:


    Just shows what you know huh ?

    Holyrood can only be shut if Scots vote for it to be closed down.

    Via a referendum.

    As for you endorsing the bigoted anti English views of callachan, well, nobody will be too surprised by that.

    It has been explained endlessly on here about how the Holyrood Parliament cannot simply be closed down by WM, yet you and others, still insist that it can be.

    Are you saying it can be closed down ?

    If you are, please explain how you come to that conclusion ?

    Will you answer that simple request, or, more likely, will you dodge the question ?

  244. mr thms says:

    Dr Jim @ 1:29 pm

    Thank you for responding.

    If the constitution of the UK changes to allow Scotland to make its own treaties or Scotland becomes independent there could be an Edinburgh Fisheries Convention which could become part of the Common Fisheries Policy when Scotland joins the EU.

    However, I had a quick browse of the Fisheries Bill 2017-2019 and in the briefing notes for MPs it mentions, getting all the devolved governments to do the same thing, a 25 year plan, and last but not least using Henry VIII powers.

  245. Welsh Sion says:

    skintybroko @ 7.42 am

    Not sure about Yoda.

  246. Welsh Sion says:

    skintybroko @ 7.42 am

    To me he looks more like one of those aliens in Toy Story.

  247. Skintybroko says:

    Hi Welsh Sion – little green man seems to be a theme – given his out of this world politics he probably is from Mars

  248. Gary45% says:

    On a very SERIOUS note, are we the citizens of Scotland going to simply sit back and accept F**KWIT Johnson as the spokesperson for us on the world stage, or do we take to the streets?
    If the population refuse to accept him, we can surely force an election? after all “uncharted waters with Brexit etc” as we are constantly told.
    Pantomime doesn’t even come close.

  249. Bobp says:

    Geoo 2.o8. ‘Holyrood can only shut if scots vote for it to be shut down’ . Westminster are already taking back devolved powers, so what makes you think they couldnt/wouldnt shut down holyrood. Sovereign scots?. Away and shove your heid up yer erse .

  250. Bobp says:

    Geoo. And i also stated that these were MY OWN PERSONAL THOUGHTS. So MYOFB and stop trolling people who express an opinion.

  251. schrodingers cat says:

    a bojo no deal pm, even after a ge, will be catastophic for all of the uk. no question. he will be lucky to last 12 months, a run on the £ while the economy tanks, peoples pensions and savings being wiped out will ensure that happens.

    it has been said by others on this site that it is only when the people start to suffer will they switch and back independence. while not wishing hardship on anyone, i would simply like to point out that this is going to happen. none of us here are responsable for this, indeed, there is nothing we can do to save the english from themselves even if we wanted to.

    the die are cast, the hoc cant stop a no deal brexit now, and bojo will become the next pm and will win the ge.

    our job is to examine and prepare for the effects of this in scotland

  252. Terry callachan says:

    To manandboy. Your post 1005hrs about tv license.

    There are hundreds of millions of people across the world who watch BBC tv for free , the tv license is only collected from people in UK , the BBC world service costs the UK taxpayer 285 million quid a year so we here in the UK are paying a lot of money to provide people across the world with free tv that we have to pay for.

    Here in Scotland we see exactly why it’s done, it’s the best way to weaken the resolve of your opposition , propaganda 24 hrs a day on tv and radio there’s no escape other than through a free thinking mind if you have one , many don’t.

  253. iainmore says:

    The Tories have no respect for Scotland far less it lasting even less than 24 hours.

    Oh and off topic. I cant believe that there are Scots still paying the English Govts TV Tax. Shakes head in wonderment at stupidity still being practised.

  254. geeo says:


    I asked you this @2.08pm :

    “Are you saying it CAN be closed down ?

    If you are, please explain how you come to that conclusion ?

    Will you answer that simple request, or, more likely, will you dodge the question” ?

    I note you went with dodging the question, hiding behind abuse.

    So i ask again.

    Are you saying it can be closed down ?

    If you are, please explain how you come to that conclusion ?

    Will you answer that simple request, or, more likely, will you dodge the question (again) and become more abusive ?

  255. Bobp says:

    Geoo. WTF are you taking/smoking? Lol.

  256. Terry callachan says:

    Talking of Boris Johnston who’s real name is Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson well actually it should really be Alexander Boris Kamal because his ancestry is Turkish , his great grandfather Ali Kamal worked for the Turkish government but was assassinated in the Turkish war of independence , he worked for the losing side , the Ottoman Empire.

    Boris,s real first name Alexander named him after “Alexander the Great”
    I wonder why he prefers to use his middle name “Boris” ?

    Boris,s grandfather Osman Kemal was born in England during a period of time when Boris,s great grandad had fled the troubles in turkey , the great grandad did return to turkey later but did so alone and it was then that he was assassinated.

    Boris,s grandfather Osman Kemal left alone in England when his mum died during childbirth and his dad went back to turkey was brought up in England by his grandparents and changed his name to Wilfred Johnson the grandmothers maiden name was Winifred Johnson.

    Boris,s grandfather went on to have children one of them was Boris,s dad Stanley Johnson who was an MP in England and also worked for the EU Commission !!
    He is now 78 still lives in England.

    So Boris has a varied ancestry Turkish great grandparents and German Swiss Russian great aunts etc but he himself was born in USA and has dual nationality British and American

    I listened to LBC radio yesterday morning they were broadcasting Boris,s speech live with Nick Ferrari doing an amateurish overspeak what a disaster ,two of the most unpleasant ideologists you could hope to find.

  257. starlaw says:

    So Boris wanted his supporters to photograph their ballot papers to prove that they voted for him. What kind of person would stoop to this control freakery other than a self centred egotist, filled with greed for the main prize.
    Does our country really want such a person in charge of the reigns of power ? I don’t

  258. Gary45% says:

    Another reason for revolt against the “F**KWIT” is, if he becomes PM, when he leaves the post he has taxpayer body guards and all the rest of the pomp for life.(paid by us)
    I think Crash Broon still has security in North Queensferry, and he was such a success!!! “Aye Right”

  259. Luigi says:

    Oh Dear! With BJ now looking unstoppable, Ruthie better make sure that Operation ArseKiss Arse gets into top gear. 🙂

  260. Luigi says:

    Barring a disaster JB will be pm. Its his to loose. Mind you, with BJ that’s still a real possibility.

  261. Scozzie says:

    Geeo ” 2.08pm

    WM might not ‘shut down’ Holyrood but they could hollow it out from within rendering it nothing more than a talking shop. As Bopb pointed out, 24 very important powers are being centralised back to WM from Holyrood’s devolved governance.

    The UK Supreme Court decision that the Sewel Convention can be pretty much ignored is absolute proof that our parliament can be neutered, and it will be neutered, by this current WM Tory government.

    When the UK leaves the EU, Scotland will be like a willow in the wind, with no big political bloc to have its back. Scotland achieved devolution (only grudgingly by the UK), WM will have no hesitation to strip back its powers.

    So yes, Holyrood may remain but it will slowly become hamstrung and powerless.

    That is why some of us don’t want to wait until the latter part of 2020 for a strike at independence. Time is not on our side. And you can say the people are sovereign and will not allow this to happen; but to date it seems like it’s gonna take a nuclear bomb to shake some people from their slumber. We need to press ahead while we have the ‘technical’ protection of the EU.

  262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 13:38,

    My own inclination remains that the new Tory leader, whoever it is, will want to wait until after Brexit has been delivered, so that the danger of a haemorrhage to the Faragists will be averted. But they will want to go to the country ASAP after, to cement their position before the full effects become apparent to the country.

    But I guess if a leader is rash enough, reckons that the current HoC will continue to stymie every move like it did with May, and that there will be no upside of Brexit even for a honeymoon period after an election, and has a full-on reputation over Brexit, what’s to lose? So you could still be right.

    I guess though there’s a UKGE on the horizon however you see it play out. And I agree the stand the SNP should take on it. Which I’m sure it will.

    Personally though, I’m sceptical of waiting to move until Brexit has happened. If it’s a disastrous no-deal Brexit, panic could set in and people will retreat into familiar certainties. “Broad shoulders”, “Dunkirk spirit” and all that.

    OTOH, if there’s no immediately observable effects, the Leavers will crow “fake news, just like the year-2000 damp squib” and normalisation will set in, no matter the longer-term consequences. Once Brexit is certain without any residual hpe of avoidance but before it actually happens is the best time to act. Peak fear.

    So I would make a snap call of IR2 for this coming September. Before it can be pre-empted by another diversionary and irrelevant UKGE to someone else’s agenda.

  263. Breeks says:

    Bobp says:
    13 June, 2019 at 3:29 pm
    Geoo. WTF are you taking/smoking? Lol.

    Just ignore him Bobp. Everybody else does. It seems to help him calm down.

  264. Cubby says:


    You are of course entitled to your own thoughts.

    I of course am also entitled to my opinion. I disagree – your comments are far too negative. Callachan paints a picture of a never ending invasion of the English in to Scotland. Way way over the top – but he would say that as he is an anti English bigot. Hopefully you are not.

  265. ailsa craig says:

    de Piffle has deliberately built up this likeable buffoon character of ‘Boris’ to appeal to the gullible public. Refuse to use it. It just adds to his ego as a popular, regular guy.

    The idea of PM Johnson and Brexit is horrific to contemplate – except that it should take us comfortably over the indy line. If it doesn’t we Scots deserve all we get.

    We – the SNP and YES movement – must however, not join in the national pastime of tearing ourselves apart when the MSM get its big guns out. Stay together with our eyes on the prize.

  266. Bobp says:

    Cubby 4.19pm. Yes my english wife and daughter (im no bigot) always say, dad your a glass half empty kind of guy. And i say jokingly no i’m a realist. Which is why i still maintain if we dont take our chance for indy soon, i fear after a hard brexit it will be taken out of our hands by a westminster gov who will go to the bitter end before they lose their scottish cash cow. My person belief.

  267. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scozzie says:13 June, 2019 at 4:04 pm:

    ” … it seems like it’s gonna take a nuclear bomb to shake some people from their slumber. We need to press ahead while we have the ‘technical’ protection of the EU.”

    And of course you, and those you speak of, all are better informed than the FM, the SG and the SNP. Not to mention their paid for legal experts and other paid for advisors.


  268. Dr Jim says:


    Maybe Boris wanted folk to photograph their ballot papers because he knows how much vote fiddling goes on

    It’s not as if the UK don’t have form for it

  269. Welsh Sion says:

    O/T Advance warning.

    Adam (Price) AM/AC, Plaid Cymru Leader on QT tonight..

  270. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Scozzie @ 16:04,

    Your observations of how Holyrood could be “strangled” by an insanely jealous London seem correct to me. With the likes of BoJo at the helm, whatever government is in Edinburgh will be faced with increasing demands for mitigation with less resources with which to achieve it all, as Barnett is removed and the power grab bites. They will try to “big up” the odious Mundell or whatever replacement the new PM decides upon, and make it look like he is the one dispensing our stolen wealth.

    As to the timing of IR2 or whatever alternative presents itself, I tend to agree with you on that (as will be no surprise from my most recent posting upthread).

    If it is a late-summer UKGE as per s~cat, we’ll go with that.

    But the SG have very astutely set matters in motion to be ready for a quick start at any time, and there’s no-one on here knows that your timing and mine isn’t what they have been secretly planning for all along, with “end-2020” being merely a smokescreen. Although there have been some hints…

  271. Bobp says:

    Robert peffers 4.40pm. As scozzie pointed out, 24 powers are being centralised back to westminster. What do the snp’s legal experts and other paid for advisors intend doing about it?.

  272. Scozzie says:

    Peffers@ 4.40pm
    I wasn’t referring to the SG, SNP etc I was referring to the general public who I’m certain if you were to say Sewel Convention, 24 repatriated powers etc. would not have a clue what was being spoken about. Not everyone in Scotland are political nerds; and they do not necessarily get the implications of these political manoeuvres from WM.

    But while your on your soap box about the SG, SNP and their amazing legal advisors etc. maybe they could do us all a favour and point out to the general public what is at stake and what we risk losing. On the other hand, we can just wait until the latter part of 2020 when we’re already out of the EU to get the general public to sit up an take notice.

  273. CameronB Brodie says:

    BoJo as PM? Pretty much where I thought Britain was heading, as England’s education system has been under assault for most of my adult life. The New Right are determined to eradicate ethical rationalism and pluralism of economic thought. There WILL be no alternative, in England anyway.

    BoJo’s is unfit for high office. Simples.

    Expressive Liberty, Moral Pluralism, Political
    Pluralism: Three Sources of Liberal Theory


    Above and beyond artful institutional contrivances, liberal democracies rely on cultural and moral conditions that cannot be taken for granted. To remain “liberal,” however, these regimes must safeguard a sphere in which individuals and groups can act, without state interference, in ways that reflect their understanding of what gives meaning and value to their lives.

    What is the relationship between the “civic” and the “expressive” strands of liberalism? What should we do when state action designed to bolster the preconditions of liberal democracy constrains expressive liberty in troubling ways, or conversely, when the exercise of expressive liberty is at odds with what may be regarded as liberal democratic preconditions. This conflict inevitably arises in public institutions such as schools, but it also emerges when the state seeks to regulate the structure and conduct of voluntary associations.

    Must civil associations mirror the constitutional order if they are to sustain that order? The resolution of this issue revolves in part around empirical questions. For example, to what extent do illiberal or undemocratic voluntary associations engender patterns of conduct, belief, and character that weaken liberal democratic polities? Scholars certainly do not agree on this point in general, and they rarely agree in specific cases.1 Theorists such as Stephen Macedo are right to emphasize the dangers of complacency.2 Liberal democratic citizens are made, not born, and we cannot rely blithely on the invisible hand of civil society to carry out civic paideia.3

    Alternatively, Nancy Rosenblum urges attention to the dynamics of moral and political psychology; theoretical abstractions can lead us to overestimate the actual importance of “congruence” between regime-level principles and the associations of civil society.4 Incongruity evokes fears that frequently outrun facts, as they did in the nineteenth century when waves of Catholic immigration led Protestant Americans to worry about the future of democratic institutions.5 Notwithstanding these fears, Catholics soon became the most loyal of citizens – and one of the most adept groups at the game of grassroots democratic politics.6

    Rosenblum asks us to look at different functions of civil associations. As she explains, they can express liberty as well as personal or social identity; provide arenas for the accommodation of deep differences; temper individual self-interest; help integrate otherwise disconnected individuals into society; nurture trust; serve as seedbeds of citizenship; and resist the totalizing tendencies of both closed communities and state power.7

    It is not obvious as an empirical matter that civil society organizations within liberal democracies must be organized along liberal democratic lines in order to perform some or all of these functions. Many of the fears Protestants voiced a century ago concerning the antidemocratic tendencies of Catholicism now are focused on Protestant fundamentalism.8 It appears that in practice, however, these denominations, far from undermining democracy, serve as arenas of political mobilization and education. Consider recent findings reported by political scientists Sidney Verba, Kay Schlozman, and Henry Brady: these churches serve as important training grounds for political skills, particularly for those without large amounts of other politically relevant assets such as education and money.9

  274. Gary says:

    But we ALREADY HAD a referendum on EU membership (after having joined) back in the 70s.

    So “respect for referendums” has a lifespan? Just how long after that did they begin to campaign for another one? Well, the Anti Federalist League (precursor to UKIP) was founded in 1991, so that’s about 15 years?

    They’re VERY keen on ‘sovereignty’ and the rights of nations to ‘determine their own laws’ but that extends solely to England and obviously NOT to Northern Ireland (who despite their elected DUP representatives campaigning STILL voted to remain part of the EU by a large margin) or to Scotland who, again, voted to remain a part of the EU and, in both cases the wishes of the majority were ignored. England, and also Wales, have carried the vote and will now drag the Scots & Irish with them. Their keen on sovereignty when it suits their needs, not anyone else’s.

    Her comment does, admittedly in a covert way, that it is MORE advantageous for the rUK than Scotland to remain in union when she says “I don’t think it would be in Scotland’s interests, and it DEFINITELY wouldn’t be in the UK’s interests” (block caps are mine for emphasis)

    It seems that asking nicely and reminding them of the terms of The Edinburgh Agreement aren’t working. They just don’t want us to have the chance to have OUR say…

  275. Terry callachan says:

    Breaks Cubby Geeo the best worker bees for British nationalism on wings

  276. geeo says:

    You dont have slaver some shite terence, you ol’ anti english bigot.

    It would be interesting if you could post a single quote from me or cubby which could ever be deemed as “britnat” in nature ?

    Thats quite a reach, even for a complete roaster like you.

    Comedy gold indeed.

  277. geeo says:


    You ARE aware of course, that at the point of ukexit, and only then, can the WM gov enact the power grab ?

    But there is a rather obvious problem.

    WM needs those 24 powers to negotiate TRADE DEALS.

    Now, also at that point in time, a Holyrood majority may vote to hold a referendum on dissolving the union treaty, *(hmmm)* set a date, and lay legal claim to ALL Scottish aspects of revenue and assets.

    With a pending indyref, no other country (or the eu) could ever cut a deal with WM using Scottish assets, like say, fishing access rights in return for banking passporting for London banks.

    Not if they may be beyond the gift of WM shortly after, as that make no sense for the other party in the deal as they lose out in the negotiation.

    Do you honestly believe the Scotsgov have not thought of such an obvious thing ?

    Seriously !

    Thank feck voting Yes is not too taxing.

  278. geeo says:

    Bobp@ 3.29pm.

    “Geoo. WTF are you taking/smoking”?

    More deflection from a resident British Nationalist.

    You know exactly what i am talking about, in fact, i even predicted you would not answer the simple question asked.

    Here is the conversation (after you claimed WM could shut down Holyrood).

    Perhaps you will try answer it this time ?

    Nah, your ilk never do.

    I asked you this @2.08pm :

    “Are you saying it CAN be closed down ?

    If you are, please explain how you come to that conclusion ?

    Will you answer that simple request, or, more likely, will you dodge the question” ?

    I note you went with dodging the question, hiding behind abuse.

    So i ask again.

    Are you saying it can be closed down ?

    If you are, please explain how you come to that conclusion ?

    Will you answer that simple request, or, more likely, will you dodge the question (again) and become more abusive ?

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