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Grasping the thistle

Posted on July 16, 2019 by

Last night, grudgingly, we watched the whole of the final Tory leadership debate, for a contest in which pretty much everyone believes Boris Johnson has already gathered enough votes to comfortably win even though there are several days of voting to go.

The headline outcome the media appears to be focusing on is that both candidates proclaimed the Irish backstop “dead”, to which the EU’s response will without a doubt be “Is it, aye?”

So where does that leave us? Let’s have an update.

Firstly, and obviously, as everyone has known for months and months and months: the EU will not negotiate on the backstop. There is zero chance – none whatsoever – of either man securing a new deal without the backstop. So there are only a few things that can possibly happen now.

Let’s start with the assumption that Boris Johnson will be the UK’s new Prime Minister, because he will be. There’s been talk that Labour would call a vote of no confidence within days or even hours of him taking office, which would be just monumentally stupid (and is therefore quite likely to happen).

Johnson would probably win such a vote, and if he didn’t it would trigger a general election for which Labour is woefully unprepared, STILL lacking a clear Brexit policy to put in its manifesto, as a deeply uncomfortable Emily Thornberry demonstrated to the nation on the Andrew Marr show last Sunday.

Johnson, conversely, would campaign on an unambiguous “we leave on 31st October, do or die, no matter what” platform – inescapably implying or even just openly stating a no-deal exit, because after an election there simply wouldn’t be time for anything else – and would likely secure a clear majority because there’d be no room for the Brexit Party to outflank him with a more extreme position.

(Johnson would almost certainly also benefit from the famed “sense of fair play” the British like to attribute to themselves, as John Major did in 1992, because it would be seen – not entirely unreasonably – as manifestly unjust that he’d been dumped without even being given a chance.)

The Remain vote, meanwhile, would probably split between Labour and the Lib Dems, making any sort of Remain coalition hideously difficult – even if they got enough seats between them for a theoretical majority, something that’s highly unlikely.

(If they turned out to need SNP votes as well, the price of coalition would – we hope – be a second independence referendum, and it’s something of an understatement to suggest that that would complicate matters considerably. On the other hand, if the Tories failed to get a majority but the Brexit Party got enough seats to take them over the line, that coalition sits together a lot more easily.)

So let’s rule out an immediate GE, because neither Labour nor the Tories really want to fight one of those right now. What’s left?

1. By fair means or foul, Boris Johnson carries out no-deal on October 31st.

This is still the most plausible outcome. It’s far from clear that MPs can stop him doing so even if he doesn’t try to prorogue Parliament, because it’s still the default position and – uniquely among the numerous options – doesn’t actually need to win a vote in the Commons to happen.

2. No-deal is prevented by either Parliament or the courts.

The latter is the tactic being floated by the tenacious but rather unlikeable Gina Miller, and what’s astonishing about it is the apparent belief that 17m Leavers would take it lying down were it to succeed.

Johnson would have no choice but to call a general election, saying that liberal elite middle-class Remoaners had cheated the people out of their democratic will (and in fact he wouldn’t be wrong).

The election would likely pan out in exactly the same way as the no-confidence scenario outlined above, resulting again in a Tory or Tory/Brexit Party majority which would then be able to enact no-deal.

3. Johnson fails to get a new deal but asks the EU for another extension instead of no-deal.

It’s far from certain the EU would grant yet another do-over, but it’s irrelevant as Johnson would be as well setting himself on fire outside the door of 10 Downing Street, and he knows it. He might be able to survive as PM in the short term because the no-confidence arithmetic would be unchanged, but it would only be delaying the inevitable.

An extension would achieve nothing that hasn’t been achieved in the last three years in terms of actually producing Brexit – because all the circumstances would still be the same and the Irish Question would remain essentially unsolvable – but it would utterly destroy the Conservative Party and Johnson with it.

The final warning that its voters gave the party in the EU election would turn into mass desertion, sooner or later the lame-duck government would implode, and the Brexit Party would win the ensuing GE. Johnson has staked the whole horse and pony show on delivering Brexit in October. He cannot afford an extension.

4. Johnson calls a second referendum.

Voting is disrupted by squadrons of flying pigs.

All of the above roads lead to no deal, and to be blunt, folks, any other scenario is a fantasy. The only even slightly plausible alternative to a no-deal Brexit (whether on 31 October under Johnson or some time next year under Nigel Farage) is the Hail Mary of a general election where the vote splits four ways and the lottery of FPTP throws up some sort of impossibly bizarre result like the Lib Dems winning a majority.

But the highest poll rating they’ve recorded since 1 June is 23%, and even the joke of an electoral system that is FPTP can’t realistically turn that into 325 seats.

(And if it somehow did, we’re genuinely not sure if Lib Dem policy would be to hold a second referendum or just to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU on the back of less than a quarter of the vote. If the former, everything would be up for grabs again. If the latter, well, duck and cover.)

As independence supporters, the conventional wisdom is that our best hope is an election in which the SNP hold the balance of power and can leverage it for a Section 30 order or even the permanent transfer of referendum powers to Holyrood. Polling suggests they could win 50 seats, which would almost certainly be crucial to any would-be government favouring Remain.

The booby-trap in that outcome, however, is that a Remain-committed UK government would be the least favourable backdrop imaginable against which to hold a second indyref. We’d be throwing away the biggest advantage we’re ever going to have.

Once again, the best odds of success for independence probably belong to the idea we put forward back in April – doing a deal with a Tory/Brexit Party government for a second referendum, in return for backing (or even just abstaining on) Brexit.

To put it extremely mildly, that’d be a controversial road to go down. But the bottom line is that the SNP owes the voters of the rUK (who’ve spent the last 30 years calling Scots whinging subsidy junkies and grievance chimps) absolutely nothing – it’s the party of Scottish independence, and if making a one-time deal with the devil is the cost of escaping that devil forever, it may yet be a deal that needs to be done.

The SNP has focused for the last three years on trying to save England and Wales from themselves, with no success and very little in the way of gratitude. But ultimately the goals of achieving Scottish independence and preventing UK Brexit are in direct and fundamental conflict with one another.

Pretty soon the party is going to have to decide which one it cares about the most, and since all the odds favour no-deal Brexit happening anyway, it might be an idea to get something out of it while we’ve still got some bargaining power.

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    1. 16 07 19 14:56

      Grasping the thistle | speymouth

    546 to “Grasping the thistle”

    1. Merkin Scot says:

      Exactly! They can’t square a circle in the way they are trying to do at the moment.

    2. Dr Jim says:

      Of course if the SNP were to assist the Tories in what they want could that not lead to the SNP being disfavoured in the EU the place we’re trying to get back into

      Not saying they wouldn’t still want us but is there not a bit of risky discomfort in this idea

    3. Inverclyder says:

      If the SNP backed Brexit then the SNP will be blamed for brexit opening the door for Labour or even the Tories to get a stranglehold in Scotland again.

      Don’t see it happening myself.

    4. Thepnr says:

      Brexit will “utterly destroy the Conservative Party and Johnson with it”

      I can agree with you there if you were actually to have said that, the rest of the post though I totally disagree with almost all of it.

      Any general election without Brexit having happened destroys the Tories, the Brexit Party would pick up at least half of their votes and that leaves the door open for Labour to emerge as the largest party and with the support of the SNP and the Lib Dems could have enough to form the next government.

      The price for that from the SNP would no doubt be another Section 30 order. As for going to the Tories and offering them support for another Section 30 order? Well I find that possibility to be simply ludicrous.

      That would “utterly destroy the SNP and Sturgeon with it”

      So here’s the rub, we haven’t had a second referendum yet because the “terms of Brexit are not clear”. All we can do is have a guess at the likely outcomes and at best that is all it can be. There might be a no deal Brexit, equally possible is that there might be a general election which then might be followed by a second referendum on the EU.

      I’ll stick with what I’ve always believed, there will not be a no deal Brexit, there are Tories willing to give up their seats over this and they will do exactly that if it comes to it.

      Guess we’ll all just have to wait a bit longer to find out then.

    5. Den Cairns says:

      I’m still not convinced Brexit is a done deal as I have no doubt the majority of the movers and shakers in British Politics know a ‘No Deal’ is a big No No. Agree we may have to engage in some extremely unpalatable conduct to secure a 30, but the latter notion gives me the dry boak – big time.

    6. Martin ODonnell says:

      I still think a lot of Scottish folk will not want to be part of sending England and Wales down the swanny. That’s how it would look.

    7. Craig P says:

      We are going to have a no deal Brexit. The SNP will do and can do nothing about it.

      But here’s the best bit.

      The UK government will fuck us over so bad in the aftermath, that even committed unionists will reluctantly come round to the view that independence is the best thing for Scotland.

    8. Scozzie says:

      I wrote my previous comment on the other thread but it probably sits better here…

      Scozzie says:
      16 July, 2019 at 2:19 pm

      I can’t speak for others, but I believe criticism of leadership, in general, is not a bad thing as it keeps leaders grounded – working for the people.

      Some independence supporters, myself included, are becoming despondent over what appears to be lack of action.

      I am unclear as to what makes the latter part of 2020 the ideal time to have a referendum – what is being seen in the crystal ball that makes this the ideal time?

      If anything, it has many unknowns as it’s so hard to predict what will be the state of affairs 12 months down the track.

      The current status is BoJo as PM, a potential no deal Brexit or possibly a GE – and with that a potential hung parliament resulting in a coalition of Tories and Brexit Party – to force through the hardest of Brexits!

      Why are we sitting back allowing this slow motion catastrophe? We all know that we get the government that England votes for, well this is very likely the government that will get in!

      So under this scenario why do we continue to wait and wait and wait?

      When Donald Tusk said ‘don’t waste this time’, perhaps he might have also been signaling that comment to us Scots too.

      I think we’re being a little ambitious to assume another extension will be granted by the EU, I’m sure they’re looking on with utter dismay to how this 6 months extension has been handled. I don’t believe Macron will have changed his position in any way given he was very reluctant to agree to the initial 6 month extension.

      The UK doesn’t hold the poker cards and it doesn’t seem that Scotland is willing to play its hand. But as in poker and politics you sometimes have to take your chances and play the cards you’re dealt. Perhaps we need to grasp the nettle and make a bold push – in politics the stars never align completely, there is never an optimal time. It simply takes bold leadership and to carry the troops through to victory.

    9. mogabee says:

      Personally, it’s as plain as the nose on yer face that we are heading for a no-deal BRexit.

      Van der Lyden, she who wishes to be EU boss, said that she would be prepared to grant another extension to “our UK friends”. Michty me!!

      Not sure if she was just trying to rile Farage. 😀

    10. Janet says:

      No, don’t be silly. Never do a deal with the Tories. And never trust a Tory: they’ll shaft you every time!

    11. Thepnr says:

      If it is a no deal Brexit then that’s absolutely fine with me. It will definitely boost support for Independence and I have to be happy about that.

      I do though believe that it was right for the SNP to fight there hardest for the UK to remain a member of the EU as that is what 62% of Scots voted for. These past 3 years have taught me something, it’s taught me that the UK government are an absolute shambles.

      It’s taught me that the Scottish government were 100% correct when they gave Theresa May their version of a route to Brexit which meant leaving but at least remaining in the single market and the customs union.

      Look at the state of where the UK and the Tory party are now, almost certainly the Tory membership are about to unleash on the rest of us a Prime Minister who is a total and utter buffoon. He on his own and all by himself might do the job for us of destroying that despicable party who rob the poor so as to reward the rich.

      I’m beyond caring now how it goes, I only know this and that is that their incompetence is bringing Scotland all the closer to self governance. I can handle any short term pain that Brexit brings because I truly believe the inevitable result will be Independence for Scotland.

      Bring it on!

    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Of course if the SNP were to assist the Tories in what they want could that not lead to the SNP being disfavoured in the EU the place we’re trying to get back into”

      The UK is leaving the EU no matter what. The EU is pretty much reconciled to that fact, and at this point just wants to get it over with and all those Brexit Party arseholes out of its Parliament.

      It also really, really wants Scotland (and its fishing waters) in, so it’s not going to go in the huff.

      “If the SNP backed Brexit then the SNP will be blamed for brexit opening the door for Labour or even the Tories to get a stranglehold in Scotland again.”

      Why would the Tory vote rise if people blamed the SNP for Brexit? Tories WANT Brexit. And Labour is officially a Brexit party too, in so far as it has a position at all, so it’d be pretty tough for them to campaign on a platform of “we didn’t want Brexit”.

      “Any general election without Brexit having happened destroys the Tories, the Brexit Party would pick up at least half of their votes and that leaves the door open for Labour to emerge as the largest party and with the support of the SNP and the Lib Dems could have enough to form the next government.”

      This is silly. Why would Labour be the largest party? They have the most confused and divided Brexit policy of anyone. The Brexit Party devoured the Tory vote in the EU elections, but Labour LOST half of its seats rather than capitalising on it.

      “I’m still not convinced Brexit is a done deal as I have no doubt the majority of the movers and shakers in British Politics know a ‘No Deal’ is a big No No.”

      Fantasy, I’m afraid. They ceded the decision to the electorate and the electorate really, really hates having its choices thrown back in its face. If the parties (especially Labour) were going to stop Brexit, the 2017 election was the time to do it, and they bottled it.

    13. Bibbit says:

      Ma heid hurts.

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I still think a lot of Scottish folk will not want to be part of sending England and Wales down the swanny. That’s how it would look.”

      It would look like giving them the thing they voted for.

    15. Gary says:

      As usual, Excellent from wings!! However…. I have my concerns about backing a tory/brexit party as that would open a can of worms that could easily devour us!
      Imagine the shot in the arm to the liebour and lie dems!? BBC and daily rancid plastering everywhere how we are tories in kilts, bertaying the people etc….

      We remember 1979 all too well and how the truth is spun as a lie! Dont give them that ammunition! The best policy might yet be not interupting your enemy whilst they are making mistakes! This lot of unionists certainly are making many!

    16. Capella says:

      Ursula von Leyden has said she is willing to extend the BREXIT deadline further. So I can see an “out by Xmas” meme developing. Jeremy Hunt has already said that he would do that to “secure a deal”. Boris Johnston, the great liar, will easily change tack once his PMship is secured.

      So a deal by Xmas is my guess. The Tory faithful will buy that, it puts an election well into the long grass and keeps the SNP waiting till next year. Nicola appears to have already factored that in.

    17. Bob Mack says:

      There is an old saying:

      Some people can stay in your heart—-but not in your life.

      Time has come for a parting of the ways in this Union.

    18. shug says:

      The problem with doing a deal with these people is that they can be trusted only to break it.

      No deal can be made with Westminster and don’t get me started on how they would behave in any indyref 2 and the BBC

      Tell them to leave the Union – they get out of the EU and we remain. If England leaves the union it also decapitates the unionist argument up here. England breaks the Union!!

    19. Thepnr says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell

      “This is silly. Why would Labour be the largest party?”

      Maybe because more people would vote for then than any other party?

      https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1150718903447883776

    20. mountain shadow says:

      I think the Scottish Government will continue to do what are they are doing now. That is continuing to fight to stay in the EU and hope (although they won’t admit it) that we’re forced out in October or even better early next year.

      A Section 30 request will then be made and if denied, I would expect a Legal challenge to be made. This will take time.

      But we may need time as there’s Alex Salmond’s trial coming up early next year, so realistically can’t have a referendum until Autumn next year anyway.

    21. Scotspatriot says:

      The SNP have my support, and have had since I could vote (seventies). There are many supporters of Independence showing signs of impatience and in some cases, childishness !
      Sturgeon has stated, until she is blue in the face, that she needs to see Brexit happen before she acts….like it said in the SG 2016 election manifesto. Nothing has changed, with the notable exception that a No Deal Brexit is now a plausible outcome !

      While some in the Independence movement rut with each other, many former No’s to Independence join our cause. Just imagine how many will join us When they do leave the EU !
      Probably over the magical figure of Sixty % !!
      Now, for a couple of months of patience, that’s Okay by me !!

    22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So a deal by Xmas is my guess.”

      What deal? What makes you think the EU is going to suddenly concede the backstop? It really really really really isn’t.

      “Maybe because more people would vote for then than any other party?”

      Oh gawd. As I said, we just HAD an election in which the Tories were basically destroyed by the Brexit Party, yet Labour still couldn’t make any gains – indeed, they got pummelled almost as badly because their position was such a mess and people went Lib Dem instead. Why would that suddenly change? You think Corbyn’s going to put his name to a clear Remain manifesto? LOLZ.

      (Incidentally, Labour have led in only 5 of the 14 polls conducted since 1 June, and the highest lead they had in any of them was 4 points, barely over the margin of error. And polling tends to overstate their results because their vote is concentrated.)

    23. Richard Hunter says:

      I like it, for the LOLs if nothing else. The amount of autistic screeching from the metropolitan London media and their acolytes in Scotland would be wonderful.

    24. Alibi says:

      I fail to understand why the SNP leadership started strongly backing a second referendum in an attempt to stop Brexit happening. I get it that they want to keep Scotland in the EU, but it is presumptuous for Scotland to try to keep England and Wales in the EU when they voted clearly to leave – it is not our place to tell them what to do, and the corollary of course is that it is not their place to tell us what to do, although of course they don’t see it that way as we are a de facto colony/possession in their eyes.

      I am of the view that a no deal brexit is highly likely, and I am perfectly happy with that as it is probably what is needed to get indy over the line. Were brexit to be called off, many potential yes voters would just revert to their previous apathy.

      The danger of a no deal brexit (or any brexit in fact) is that the rUK uses the yoon MPs from England to neuter Holyrood, possibly suspending it completely on some spurious grounds of “national emergency”. That would be tantamount to a declaration of war on Scotland.

    25. Doug Bryce says:

      great article.

      FWIW : I do believe the “slowly slowly” approach arguing for EU membership from SNP is gradually winning undecided voters over.

      compared to the Tories (brexit xenophobes) or Corbyn (left wing loonie) the SNP look positively center ground and sane.

      this is a battle than can be won. as things keep getting worse (no-deal / brexit party influencing a general election) the probability of independence increases greatly.

      as ever the timing of IndyRef2.0 is key.
      Wait for moment of maximum chaos and bring then strike.

    26. Not Convinced says:

      One minor detail. AIUI the SNP is very unlikely to enter into a coalition with Labour, as they’ve seen how that work out for the junior partner. They would, however be entirely prepared to enter into a “confidence & supply” agreement in return for a Section 30 order.

    27. Thepnr says:

      Rev

      You have commissioned polls for Wings so must have even a little faith in them right? I’ve absolutely no doubt that a large number of Tories will abandon support for the Brexit Party when push comes to shove in a General Election.

      Same too goes for Labour defectors to the Greens and the Lib Dems. Right now though labour are polling ahead of any other party, there is no reason to doubt that it could be them who emerge as the largest party in any general election that takes place soon. Importantly of course before we leave the EU as that’s what kills the Tories znd that’s why I think Labour will do their damnedest to force one.

      A “successful” no deal Brexit followed by an immediate general election will likely force upon us Boris Johnson as Prime Minister for another 5 years. Fortunately the people of Scotland have a get out clause and it’s a card that will be played Brexit or No Brexit.

    28. geeo says:

      Not at all impressed by any idea of trading ‘support’ for tory brexit in return for a S.30 order.

      Might as well be saying that we accept defeat if WM gov simply says “no S.30” at any point, if we are basically saying we need to leverage a S.30.

      If (no deal/any) brexit is inevitable, then why would the tories care if SNP asked for a S.30 in return to supporting a deal ?

      Not much in it for the tories other than a slightly easier path out, however, as we know, tory voters would be equally happy to leave with no deal.

      I think Johnson could easily win a majority in a forced GE, especially if HE forces it, by stating that “i want out by Oct 31st, but everyone is conspiring to stop me, give me a majority in a GE and I shall deliver what you want”.

      I absolutely believe English voters would happily buy into that, especially coming from Johnson.

      If however, Johnson allows 31st oct to come and go, minus brexit, then an election would absolutely end him and the tories.

      I believe he has a short window to take charge, declare he is being stopped from delivering brexit, and appeal for support from the public to ‘join him’ in defeating, for want of a Tory phrase, “the bastards” stopping their brexit.

    29. Doug Bryce says:

      ^ true.

      *if* we get a general election the english vote will split roughly 4-ways between Lab / Tory / Lib Dem and Brexit Party. good luck forming a functioning government out of that!

    30. CmonIndy says:

      I was going to take a contrary position to the Rev here, but then found that, I couldnt find it.

    31. geeo says:

      @rev stu.

      What are the implications for the scenarios in the article, of this breaking news on Sky News?

      http://archive.is/XFpmL

    32. Liz g says:

      Well while it’s a deeply uncomfortable thing to consider.
      If that’s the shittist thing we have to do to get out of this bloody Union I could live with it!
      Especially since it would be the last deal ever with the Tories.
      We must face the fact that the people of England want these Tories and vote for them, so deal with them we must anyway…
      The “ am no playing “ position is no going to get anywhere ?

    33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You have commissioned polls for Wings so must have even a little faith in them right? I’ve absolutely no doubt that a large number of Tories will abandon support for the Brexit Party when push comes to shove in a General Election.”

      I honestly don’t know which direction you mean there, but it depends – as I outline above – on how that election comes about. The likelihood is either that most BP voters will go Tory or vice versa, depending on how the election comes about.

      But I’m not sure how you think it helps your point. As I keep saying, we just HAD an election in which the Tory/BP vote was severely split and Labour massively failed to make any gains at all. They barely got any more votes than the Tories.

      “Same too goes for Labour defectors to the Greens and the Lib Dems. Right now though labour are polling ahead of any other party”

      Well, no, right now they’re not. The last three polls have been Labour by 2 points, Tories by 1 point, and a tie. That’s a dead heat.

      “there is no reason to doubt that it could be them who emerge as the largest party in any general election that takes place soon.”

      They certainly COULD be the largest party, but on current polling so could any of the other three. It’s an absolute lottery under FPTP but the odds are stacked against Labour by the distribution of their vote, and by the fact that a large bulk of it is in seats that voted Leave, often by huge margins.

      Campaigning on a Remain platform in those Labour heartlands could be catastrophic, and in most seats outside Labour’s heartlands the obvious Remain vote in a Brexit-focused election is for the Lib Dems (or the SNP/Plaid), not Labour. So Labour could lose a bunch of seats and gain none in return.

      (The Tories are nowhere in most Labour heartland seats, so the Leave vote would coalesce easily around the Brexit Party with little splitting.)

      And of course, “largest party” in and of itself counts for diddly anyway. A Labour majority is roughly a 0% chance, a Labour/Lib Dem one a pretty slim chance. So you’re talking about a three-party coalition in which Jo Swinson (probably, she’s 1/8 favourite) is willing to sign up to a second indyref. Hmmmm.

    34. John Boyle says:

      If the tories (sorry, I can’t bring myself to use capital letters for them), offered a Scottish referendum and the SNP decided to abstain from voting on Brexit votes in Westminster would that be acceptable to the Yes minded electorate in Scotland?

    35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If the tories (sorry, I can’t bring myself to use capital letters for them), offered a Scottish referendum and the SNP decided to abstain from voting on Brexit votes in Westminster would that be acceptable to the Yes minded electorate in Scotland?”

      My belief is that it would. What Yes supporter is ultimately going to object to anything that gets them a second indyref?

    36. Independent says:

      Just a wee bit off at a tangent.

      The leaked hints that Jeremy Corbyn was unfit health wise for high office???

      Might Labour be planning to replace him overnight with the very able, Sir Keir Starmer, and try and hoover up some of the middle England swithering voters????

      Just a thought.

    37. Ron Preedy says:

      If we leave by November, the EU can talk directly to Nicola, who has put a lot of effort into building contacts there. She could possibly get them to agree to recognize an indy Scotland if they get a majority in a referendum, Section 30 yes or no. As soon as the EU recognizes Scotland, the rest (excepting WM) will fall into line. The EU wants not just our fishing, but also our renewables. Plausible?

    38. Scozzie says:

      Scotspatriot @ 3.20pm
      The SNP 2017 manifesto said ‘At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.’

      We already know the terms, these were laid down in the Withdrawal Agreement of Nov 2018 – and the EU have said no further negotiation will happen.

      Nicola did not state in that manifesto for the Scots to feel the full brutal impact of Brexit, before letting Scotland have its choice. We have known the terms of Brexit (take it or leave it i.e. WA or no deal)for over 6 months. But yet still not action, and the only proposed action is the latter part of 2020 when very likely the UK will have Brexited and god knows where that leaves Scotland with no EU law protection.

      If Nicola wants to change her own goalposts (i.e saving England from Brexit over independence) I think she should at least let it be clear why her position has changed and what this means for our drive towards independence (including timescale).

    39. Alabaman says:

      I’m running out of popcorn, is there any more crisps left?,
      Cause this ” question and answer” with Stew is going to last, and last, methinks .
      I’m going to be the same as Bibbit , but not only with a sair heid, but grotty gut.

    40. A C Bruce says:

      I don’t agree with the Scottish Govt trying to save England & Wales from their EU ref decisions. They had the same information as us but voted differently. They should be left to deal with that.

      Supporting Brexit in return for a S30 would need a helluva lot of explanation to the Scottish people to convince them that the about face is worth it. I would be two-faced enough to support it.

      The whole damned thing is a mess of the Tories’ making. Meanwhile, the UK Parliament is in paralysis with no significant, non Brexit legislation having been passed that I’m aware of. It can’t continue like this for many more years. Something needs to give. I hope the something is us somehow finding a way to dump the union.

    41. Capella says:

      What Deal? I guess it would be a border down the Irish sea. I can’t see any other alternative. The Tory faithful will buy it to get out of the EU.

    42. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “We already know the terms, these were laid down in the Withdrawal Agreement of Nov 2018 – and the EU have said no further negotiation will happen.”

      Yup. The only thing to be settled now is whether it’s those terms (hugely damaging to Scotland) or no deal (absolutely colossally damaging, and far more likely).

    43. desimond says:

      Will Boris in his first PM statement say “And we now have troops heading to the Irish Border and will soon be hiring even more via National Service to head to Persia..huzzah”

      Winter is Coming alright!

      No idea what SNP can do regards party arithmetic but just getting refocused on 1 main issue would be a start. Talking about having a lovely house that’s welcome to everyone under the sun is fine but you need a key to the door first and foremost!

    44. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Deal with the devil”?

      Never.

      Trust.

      A.

      Tory.

      Will we ever learn?

    45. Thepnr says:

      @geeo

      One implication of such a plan by Johnson in the article is this.

      “More MPs are considering following Mr Bebb by announcing they will stand down at the next election, freeing their hand to vote against the government in a vote of no confidence in the House of Commons.”

      If and it may be a big “if” is that if Corbyn can whip his MP’s into supporting a No confidence vote in the Tory government then they will surely fall. Any Labour MP voting against a no confidence vote in the Tories will be out of a job in the next election so there is unlikely to be many dissenters other than those already chucked out and sitting now in Westminster as “Independents”

      Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and the likes of Bebb (from whom the quote above comes) will vote against No deal and bring down the government in a no confidence vote. I expect that there are many more who will do the same. The Tory majority even with the support of the DUP (ignoring Sein Fein and the speaker) is just 1.

      This government is toast and that’s no matter how Brexit pans out.

    46. Stephane Sechaud says:

      This could be the biggest political miscalculation in the independence movement. Any perceived move to work with the tories would be harshly punished. It has taken much work and effort to lose the tartan tories slur for the SNP. It would be back and justified in a heart beat if they did what you propose. Just look at Labour in Scotland. They sided with the tories, and have been relegated to the bottom of the political league in Scotland. SNP do not need to do anything but bide their time. The whole Brexit fiasco has been a great argument for independence, and I don’t think it makes sense to stop or assist when they are doing such a a good job by themselves.

    47. Alabaman says:

      Looks like M. Grove has been offered a top job in Boris’s government.
      Weasel of a man.

    48. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Might Labour be planning to replace him overnight with the very able, Sir Keir Starmer, and try and hoover up some of the middle England swithering voters????”

      I can’t see the slightest chance of a successful leadership challenge to Corbyn by 31 October, or of him losing it if there were one.

    49. Scotspatriot says:

      Scozzie 4.03.
      Many who voted No in 14 did so as they were comfortable, financially speaking. This time most will be hurt, financially speaking, by the inert, Incompetents in the Tory ranks.
      That will guarantee a large swing to the Independence movement.
      The Manifesto stated “ such as, being taken out of the EU, against our will “

      We’re not out yet !!

    50. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This could be the biggest political miscalculation in the independence movement. Any perceived move to work with the tories would be harshly punished. It has taken much work and effort to lose the tartan tories slur for the SNP. It would be back and justified in a heart beat if they did what you propose.”

      The “Tartan Tories” slur is still used by Labour today, and a fat lot of good it does them. But you seriously think any Yes supporter is going to object to anything that produces a second indyref, AND gives England and Wales what they voted for?

    51. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP, wearing its devolution hat, has often deviated from the straight path. Over ‘concern’ for the imagined consequences of Brexit and an interest in social issues of the libertarian Green variety has seemed to push independence to the outer margins.
      This from today’s Guardian is an exemplar of the ‘brave new world’ identity stuff the SNP leadership seems to think we ought really, really to care about.
      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/16/transgender-man-who-gave-birth-loses-high-court-privacy-case-fred-mcconnell
      The English political situation and the ‘metropolitan’ nonsense that forms the socio-cultural backdrop to it is not our world. The skilled application of the Englishman William of Ockam’s famous razor to our politics would not go amiss.

    52. Lenny Hartley says:

      Alex if you think Corbyn is gonna be PM with or without the SNP’s help i think your wrong. You should know by now that things have changed in the UK and its no longer a party most folk vote for but the leader. Corbyn is the least popular leader since records begun hovering atvaround 17% .

    53. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and the likes of Bebb (from whom the quote above comes) will vote against No deal and bring down the government in a no confidence vote. I expect that there are many more who will do the same.”

      That’s the first thing I address in the article. Johnson would LOVE to be thrown out in his first week and have to call a plebiscitary election. He’d skoosh it. Just not cricket to give a chap the bum’s rush before he’s even got his coat off, old boy.

    54. cynicalHighlander says:

      desimond

      Or a jemmy

    55. Dr Jim says:

      @John Boyle

      That’s a very fair and equitable plan I think

      We’re not voting for Brexit and we’re not voting against England’s wishes to do what they want

      Can’t really say fairer than that

    56. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ““Deal with the devil”?

      Never.

      Trust.

      A.

      Tory.

      Will we ever learn?”

      As opposed to what? Do nothing, and then have to trust them to just give us a second indyref out of the kindness of their hearts some time down the road when we’ve got nothing to bargain with? Do you ever read the newspapers at all? Their clearly-stated position on that one is “NO NEVER NOPE NOT A CHANCE NO WAY”.

    57. Proud Cybernat says:

      Scotland doesn’t want rUK to become a basket case economy after we achieve Indy (as it surely would if we assisted with their suicide). It would be bonkers then for SNP to assist rUK in its own suicide.

      S30 should not be beholden to some grubby deal WM deal. WM can either support Scotland’s right to self-determination and have a stake in the process or they can take a hike and we go it alone.

      No sooner will SNP have assisted in the Brexit suicide than Unionist parties will be spinning that the SNP supported Brexit after all, so the manifesto clause of IndyRef2 if we’re dragged out of EU against our will will no longer hold water. How can it be against our will if our elected members actually VOTE to MAKE IT HAPPEN?

    58. ST says:

      Interesting read.

      In your view, what impact (if any) would it have on SNP-voting electorate, if it was deemed to have facilitated Brexit, especially by doing a deal with the Tories?

    59. Tartan Tory says:

      You know what….. The thing that troubles me in all this, is that in my simple mind, I really want people to vote FOR independence because that’s what they really want, rather than voting for independence as some sort of last resort.

      Perhaps I’m just being too simplistic. I want to see that the people are being offered something positive (as I believed it was in 2014), rather than just being offered a get-out clause from something very negative.

      I feel we are in danger of presuming that the last wallflower standing alone in the nightclub is going to be ours for the taking home, rather than going for the one we fancy in the first place. Independence should not be touted as the last resort before the gates of hell open.

    60. starlaw says:

      Under no circumstances must SNP support any Tory party. The Media would think that all their Christmases had come early, and SNP voters would throw the towel in and set up a more radical party.

    61. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “No sooner will SNP have assisted in the Brexit suicide than Unionist parties will be spinning that the SNP supported Brexit after all, so the manifesto clause of IndyRef2 if we’re dragged out of EU against our will will no longer hold water. How can it be against our will if our elected members actually VOTE to MAKE IT HAPPEN?

      We wouldn’t be voting to make it happen. The manifesto was if SCOTLAND was dragged out against its will. England and Wales voted to Leave, and all we’d be doing was giving them what they wanted while providing Scots with a lifeboat.

    62. Thepnr says:

      @Scozzie

      “The SNP 2017 manifesto said ‘At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.’

      We already know the terms, these were laid down in the Withdrawal Agreement of Nov 2018 – and the EU have said no further negotiation will happen.”

      No we don’t know anything of the kind, there is no deal yet and the terms are not known so your talking rubbish. Both Johnson and Hunt have said they will renegotiate the terms. Utter bullshit I know but that does not make no deal a cast iron certainty, does it?

      You anti-SNP doom and gloom lot are giving it your all now, what’s up are you getting worried about an impending referendum?

      You have cause to be worried, I’d be worried too in your shoes hahaha.

    63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Under no circumstances must SNP support any Tory party. The Media would think that all their Christmases had come early, and SNP voters would throw the towel in and set up a more radical party.”

      “SNP Voters Furious As Party Secures Independence”.

      Hmmmmm.

    64. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “No we don’t know anything of the kind, there is no deal yet and the terms are not known so your talking rubbish. Both Johnson and Hunt have said they will renegotiate the terms. Utter bullshit I know but that does not make no deal a cast iron certainty, does it?”

      You just called it “utter bullshit” for a reason. The EU have said roughly 50,000 times that the deal is not open for negotiation and I don’t think there’s the slightest chance that they’re lying.

    65. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For me it’s a no-brainer.

      A one-off deal whereby we get their baws away from the mangle in return for a last chance at a WM-approved referendum?

    66. Stravaiger says:

      I like it when the Rev does these prediction articles. They’re unnervingly accurate, and I suspect this one will prove to be no different.

      I suspect that in early November there will be another article where the Rev says “Remember I said this back in July?”

    67. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Corbyn is a complete twat and I could b=never vote for him, the vast majority of EX- Labour voters think so too and have switched to the SNP. Some have gone to Ruth Davidson’s NO Surrender party for sure. None of that changes the fact that in England they are currently leading the polls and might well win the next election.

      My guess is as good as your guess and that’s all it is.

    68. Effijy says:

      My opinion is that now England have proved themselves to be
      The greatest nation on earth by winning a dodgy game of Cricket
      The raging English Unionists are confident of sorting out Johnny Foreigners
      Across the globe by stealing their resources, just like back in the good old days of Empire
      They could call it a trade deal.

      The English will again make Tories the largest party in parliament!
      The DUP will take any and all Tory Bribes and focus their attention back on 1690.

      The Lib Dem parasite party will partner anyone but for a couple of Ministerial seats
      and Knighthoods at the end of Parliament Tories R’Us.

      That my friends you will find delivers the working majority for the Tories at Westminster.

      Scotland can then be beaten to death by Westminster and it can be called democracy.

      No Holyrood, No Devolved powers, No Barnett formula, just SNP Bad!

    69. Bradford Millar says:

      come a general election there is nothing to Stop the SNP campaigning on the grounds of a simple majority of seats 30+ = Independence as it stands the polls have SNP winning 53 to 59 of the seats, the latest poll has us winning 55 that will give the SNP a mandate to declare Independence and this is the option that frightens the unionist especially that boot Pamela Nash from Scotland in the union … the more seats we win the more validity to our claim of Independence from the UK

    70. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “In your view, what impact (if any) would it have on SNP-voting electorate, if it was deemed to have facilitated Brexit, especially by doing a deal with the Tories?”

      If it brought about a second indyref and thereby independence? None whatsoever. In polls, most SNP voters overwhelmingly support the principle of not voting on matters concerning England and Wales. This really isn’t hugely different from that.

    71. Proud Cybernat says:

      “We wouldn’t be voting to make it happen. The manifesto was if SCOTLAND was dragged out against its will. England and Wales voted to Leave, and all we’d be doing was giving them what they wanted while providing Scots with a lifeboat.”

      Kinda what I proposed back in March:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/little-red-dots/comment-page-1/#comment-2446707

    72. A C Bruce says:

      On second thoughts. The tories won’t wear it. Aye sure, it gives England/Wales what they want in terms of leaving the EU but Scotland hops off with its resources. They need the resources once their economy tanks and their social fabric faces being ripped apart. They’ll find a way to scupper Scotland’s departure.

      They want both. To leave the EU but to keep us. It’s a no go.

    73. Bob Mack says:

      Breaking; Boris wanting to suspend Parliament the last two weeks in October to give government a free hand at Brexit.

      Reconvene in November. Any doubts now anybody?

    74. A C Bruce says:

      “Breaking; Boris wanting to suspend Parliament the last two weeks in October to give government a free hand at Brexit.”

      This isn’t a democracy; it’s a deeply unpleasant dictatorship. God knows where this will lead.

    75. Republicofscotland says:

      I want Sturgeon to fully concentrate on getting us out of this terrible union by hook or by crook, everything else is a distant second in my book.

      If that means making unsavoury deals with devils fair enough, I vote for the SNP to deliver independence, not to be a savour of the UK.

    76. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s another link to the original April 26th WOS article.

      I don’t remember reading it as I was Brexited out of my face at the time and couldn’t take any more of it from any source. The logic is very difficult to argue against.

      Give them their damned Brexit – as soon as the voting is done our MPs empty their lockers then get the first flight back to Scotland on the understanding that they will never ever be going back there again.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/from-the-mouths-of-eggs/

    77. msean says:

      The only problem with all this is that every party that works with the Tories gets destroyed,for evidence, I give you the Liberal Democrats themselves,Scottish Labour UKIP,and quite possibly the DUP.

      Everything the Tories touch turns to sh**e.

    78. Abulhaq says:

      @Bradford Millar 4:39
      The SNP has won 56 Westminster seats and bizarrely failed to do anything productive with them.
      Sturgeon’s inner circle in the SNP seem motivated by other issues. She herself is uncomfortable with the term ‘nationalist’. I am not convinced she has the political will for an aggressive head to head with the system.

    79. johnj says:

      One more scenario.

      After a GE which the Tories win or a Tory/Brexit coalition takes power, but in which the SNP gain a majority of Scottish seats (having independence in their manifesto of course), Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government declare UDI. This would be risky without a very large majority, maybe 50+.

      Outcome would be dramatic, Tanks in George square, Nicola in Jail, international outrage as per Barcelona. But I honestly believe that Nicola has, erm… the balls for it.

    80. ALANM says:

      If the SNP were to vote for Brexit in exchange for receiving “permission” to hold a second independence referendum then we sure as hell would have to win that referendum. If we lost again Labour will still be carping 40 years from now that SNP MP’s put Mrs. Thatcher in Downing Street in 1979 and then kept Boris Johnson there in 2019.

      Just wait until 2059 and you’ll see I’m right.

    81. kapelmeister says:

      Independence is not a single issue. It’s now every political issue for Scotland rolled into one. Our freedom. Our jobs and businesses and economy. The Scottish NHS and our environment. Our relations with the world. Without independence now we’ll get treated not as 2nd class citizens but as outright vassals in all but name.

      A utilitarian Section 30 deal with a tory prime minister to get Scotland clear of tory misrule for good. Fine by me. And if the hypocrites of so called Scottish Labour pipe up we can just remind them of the champagne quaffing with their Conservative & Unionist pals in 2014 to celebrate Scots being conned by The lying Vow into staying in a tyrannical union.

    82. prj says:

      You have a point on abstaining on a brexit vote, especially if we do it on the grounds of an English independence vote. As this has now been made an English independence vote then it will also imply that they are voting to dissolve the UK.

    83. ahundredthidiot says:

      ….it would also have the added benefit of starting a good relationship with our friends down south…..regardless of who is in power.

      This is it. The big difficult one. The deal needs done. And if Scotland votes no – we get everything we deserve.

    84. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      There will be no deal with the Tories by the SNP. Quite simply electoral suicide. We can argue this all day but to what purpose?

      We will be having a referendum, YES that’s right it will be in 2020. The SNP either do that or they too are finished, I’ve absolutely no idea how this referendum will come about but I strongly believe that it will.

      This is not just blind faith for the simple reason that it is an absolute necessity for it to happen and that the people of Scotland have an opportunity to give their voice on what they think of Johnson or Hunt Brexit.

      The pressure has been building, everybody looking for an outlet, well ours should be in a greater determination that this country should once again be governed by those elected by the people who live here.

      Everyone single one of us has it in their power to put the POSITIVE case for Independence and hopefully convince even one single person that it is undoubtedly in their best interests.

      I’ll tell you this, our goal is so close to fruition I can smell it!

    85. Hamish100 says:

      Martin ODonnell says:
      16 July, 2019 at 2:38 pm
      I still think a lot of Scottish folk will not want to be part of sending England and Wales down the swanny. That’s how it would look. So we go down the swanny eeith them!! That’s nice.

    86. msean says:

      I do think,though,that,yes,unpalatable choices may have to be made.

      There really aren’t any other options.

    87. Hamish100 says:

      We dont need permission to exercise our democratic will.

    88. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ALANM

      If the SNP were to vote for Brexit in exchange for receiving “permission” to hold a second independence referendum then we sure as hell would have to win that referendum.

      As Rev has said, SNP would not be voting FOR or AGAINST any motion – it would abstain in return for S30.

      S30 is only about binding WM to accept the outcome of any IndyRef. There’s little point in holding IndyRef2 (which we can do at any time as per Claim of Right) if, beforehand, WM has not agreed to accept the result.

      If it went ahead without WM agreement, and YES won, the result would be contested in court for years.

    89. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      I wish I could share your optimism but I don’t. I respect you too much to pretend otherwise.

    90. Medhat Khattar says:

      There is one more possibility through the Brexit impasse. What about: Extension until end of April 2020 coupled with full suspension of UK membership in the EU from 31 October 2019, and the UK government legislating for a referendum to be held during the 6 months extension/membership suspension period with a YES or NO to revoking Article 50?

    91. Normski says:

      And since this article was published, it now looks like Boris’ tactics will be to defer the Queen’s Speech for the opening of the Westminster Parliament by a couple of weeks, thus taking the opening of the next session of the Westminster Parliament to after October 31st.

      We are moving into the end-game phase of #Brexit.

    92. Clootie says:

      The SNP have behaved reasonably and in a professional manner. Westminster have been aggressive, dismissive and insulting regarding the role of the Scottish Government.(our Government)
      I suggest we sit back and let the Unionists dig an even deeper hole. If the road being followed by the Brexit madmen doesn’t lead reasonable Scots to embrace Independence then NOTHING will.

      If Scots can see their likely future out of Europe and under Boris & Co but still cling o the Union then we will never gain political freedom and we will have to accept the world to come 🙁

      I think the positive case for Independence is strong enough but when contrasted to the Boris Brexit disaster it looks unbelievably attractive. – a no brainer!

    93. Thepnr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      A section 30 would be nice but if none is forthcoming then we must have the referendum anyway. A clear majority of people in Scotland now say they want another referendum before brexit or immediately after Brexit has been settled.

      I don’t think that Westminster will get away with ignoring the opinion of the majority of the Scottish electorate for long.

      There are major issues of course if there is no Section 30 order, these surely are plain to see. The first is that the Unionist s in Scotland would no doubt be encouraged to boycott such a referendum. Westminster would try and declare it “illegal” even though it is within the Scottish governments power to hold referendums on it subject it chooses.

      What’s the worst thing that could happen? I have no idea but it probably wouldn’t look very pretty. So the way to go is to use whatever means necessary in order to obtain a Section 30 order. This is NOT Westminster’s permission as we don’t need that but simply an admission from them that the result will be accepted as being the legitimate choice of the Scottish people.

      One thing to always keep in mind is that the people of Scotland are sovereign and that means if they want to remain part of the UK then that is the choice of the sovereign people.

      Democracy isn’t just for Yes supporters and the only way we will win is by convincing those that voted No last time to join us. Keep it simple, we need to win by gathering support.

      Nothing else really matters when you think about it, does it?.

    94. kapelmeister says:

      The people of England have chosen to send themselves down the swanny. Scotland didn’t instigate that. Scotland can’t prevent it. We can prevent Scotland going with them. This is no time for silly sentiment about some imaginary ‘British’ camaraderie.

    95. North chiel says:

      Possible point regards the EU election , the Labour Party did not campaign against Brexit . I have no doubt that they will campaign against Brexit in any GE against Bono’s hard Brexit .

    96. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Thepnr

      I remain absolutely convinced if ScotGov held IndyRef2 without WM S30 then a YES victory would be contested by WM.

      I believe it would end up in court, likely international courts.

      But I think, if it went that far, the YES result would be upheld by an international court.

      But how long it would take to get there is anyone’s guess. I think WM would ensure it took years with appeal after appeal. Meanwhile WM is asset-stripping Scotland on speed.

    97. Nation Libre says:

      The crazy thing is, rUK without Scotland would easily have a Brexit majority in the commons

    98. Thepnr says:

      We need to be totally realistic in our thinking about Scotland once again becoming a self governing country.

      A 55% v 45% vote in support on Independence does mean that just as we were disappointed on the 19th September 2014 then there will be a hell of a lot of disappointed No supporters the day after any Yes vote.

      There were problems after the NO vote won because nothing actually changed, people voted for the status quo. That won’t be the case after a Yes vote in the next referendum. Everything will change and in my opinion it needs to change and I expect change for the better.

      Not everyone is going to share my opinion, I think we can be pretty certain of that. I think Yes will win, I think we need to prepare for that, I think the media will go totally ape shit and try to create as much division as possible. I think we need to be prepared for that.

      If we do win then I think we need to be wise in how we celebrate regaining our Independence. At the end of the day, all voters both Yes and No are Scots, they’re as entitled as us to a voice deciding in what the future of our country is to be. We need to respect that too and this is not any politically correct bullshit. It’s what I believe.

    99. geeo says:

      If we are talking deals with the tories, then offer them THIS deal, rather than give them a free brexit pass in exchange for something we do not technically even need (S.30).

      Scotland’s terms:

      In order for the people of England and Wales to achieve an exit deal from the EU, as mandated in 2016, and also to enable Scotland’s exressed will to Remain in the EU is also respected, we the SNP/Scotsgov make this offer.

      The SNP will abstain from a newly presented Withdrawal Bill to Pariament.

      In return, Scotland will enter negotiations (time limited) with WM to reach an independence settlement.

      If they refuse to agree to THAT then why deal with them at all ?

      Any deal to enable English/Welsh brexit, must include Scotland REMAINING IN the EU.

      And since the only chance of that happening is independence, then any deal must reflectvthat as a minumum term.

    100. geeo says:

      Proud Cybernat @4.38pm

      Not sure how it would take years for international recognition.

      WM has ALREADY AFFIRMED Scots are legally sovereign in Scotland uncontested. A fact registered in Hansard itself.

      So how could WM use a defence that the indyref result (without a S.30) is NOT a legally legitimate expression of the will of the Sovereign Scots people, without looking rather stupid ?

      They would be laughed out of court.

    101. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit is going to happen. There certainly won’t be a soft Brexit.

      With Johnson’s crowning we have moved beyond the point where the SNP can fight Scotland’s corner in any way other the independence. England cannot be saved from itself and the UK is moving towards far right isolationism. There will be no People’s Vote, no revocation of Article 50.

      We are very close to complete clarity on where the UK is headed. Johnson will go for Brexit by any means. No delays. With the Brexit Party standing in the sidelines to step in and do the dirty, Johnson has no choice but to do the dirty first.

      The only road open to the SNP, and the Scottish Parliament with its Indy majority, is to facilitate independence ASAP in whatever manner it can.

      Now IS the time for assertive and aggressive action from Scotland.

    102. Old Pete says:

      If the SNP assist the Tories then 6 votes and 2 members will be lost from my family alone. Siding up with the Tories in anything would be suicide for the SNP. Why anyone would think otherwise is beyond reason.

    103. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geoo show me Hansard where it says that Westminster has already affirmed that the Scots are legally Sovereign in Scotland uncontested.

    104. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      The only thing that is certain is that NOBODY knows what will happen next under Brexit. That is a fact and anything else is purely speculation.

      “Brexit is going to happen.”

      That’s one possible outcome, might even be the most likely but is far from a certainty.

      “There will be no People’s Vote, no revocation of Article 50.”

      You might be right but might equally be wrong. I can’t understand why anyone can be so absolutely definite on something that has so many potential outcomes.

      It is a bookies job to give odds an what is an as yet unknown result. They currently have a No deal Brexit as a 2/1 shot with “something else” i.e. as the most likely outcome at 2/5.

      Adnittedly the odds of a second referendum are way out there at 8/1 so they don’t seem to think much of that. Then again it’s favourite than there is no EU exit before 2020!

      Make of that what you will but only one thing is certain and that is nobody REALLY knows what will happen from one day to the next. I’m very pleased that Nicola Sturgeon has kept her hand close to her chest. It’s this Boorach Brexit clusterfuk that will get Scotland her Independence. Keep the faith 🙂

    105. Bob Mack says:

      The SNP can vote with the Tories. Why? Simply this. If we get a Section 30 and it leads to our Independence then the function of the SNP has been completed and they can go their separate ways. If we lose, then we will never win another referendum .

      Either way, the SNP have nothing to lose

    106. Zen Broon says:

      The notion of the SNP ‘doing a deal’ with the Tory/Brexit Party is a credibility-shredder at every level. The sort of tripe Daisley toots out for dimwit Spectator readers.

    107. Thepnr says:

      Left out the link, here’s the odds on Brexit for any interested.

      https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/brexit

    108. Petra says:

      I’m not sure about the SNP doing any deals with the Tories at all. It *may* not bother fervent Yes voters too much but what about the people that we really need to get on our side, such as prior no voters and fence sitters? Supporting the Tories may be a step too far for them. Have them thinking that living in an Independent Scotland via the hypocritical Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP is not for them.

      Meanwhile even although they continue to attempt to destroy Corbyn support for him is rising. Latest polling figures put him ahead of the Tories by 6 points and the Brexit party by nine. It’s a mess alround, that’s for sure, but to my mind even the unthinkable can still happen now.

      http://www.thecanary.co/trending/2019/07/13/bbc-hatchet-job-on-jeremy-corbyn-immediately-backfires-as-labour-takes-remarkable-poll-lead/

      However no matter what way this goes now support for Independence will rise and that’s what Nicola Sturgeon has to see happening more than anything. Posters on here point out that we had 56 politicians sitting in Westminster previously and the SNP did nought, however that was in conjunction with less than 40% of the vote. If there is a GE and we get 50 plus SNP MPs at Westminster and the polls show over 50% support for Independence (well over that figure would be better of course) our MPs should walk out of Westminster and head home. A request for a Section 30 should be made and if refused should be taken to the UN and / or EU highlighting that over 50% of sovereign Scots want out of the Union. We know that figure will be ridiculed and said to relate “polls only”, but the threat of even contemplating doing so might force their hand?

      Then again Nicola Sturgeon, who’s privy to info that we’re not aware of, may have other plans. It continues to be a waiting game, but one that’s taking us ever closer to getting out of the hellhole.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      Evidence that Johnson (and Hunt) are now perceived as harbingers of disaster?

      The pound has just hit a two year low. And a lot of shite has happen over those two years, the situation now is being perceived as the worst.

      An all time low for sterling is just round the corner.

    110. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 14:31, 14:56,

      Sorry, joining this one somewhat late, but on the whole I do tend to agree with you here. (Though do I recall correctly that you were expecting a UKGE before Brexit? =grin= In which of course you could still be right anyway, given the degree of LabCon confusion.)

      I think any degree of cooperation between SNP and the Tories woud be toxic for the SNP. It may not be rational, but that’s politics. Look what it has done for NorthBritLab. England might possibly thank the SNP for helping them get the Brexit they wanted, if they could even be bothered to notice, but the Scots Remainers on whom independence largely rests would most certainly not.

      Where I do disagree is I’m increasingly inclined to think there will now be a no-deal Brexit. By a kind of “WW1 default outbreak failure” as one historian feared. Too much Tory prestige is invested in it to pull back now. Going forward might split the party, that’s perfectly possible, but turning back now will positively wreck it. In England at least, the Tories would be replaced wholesale by the Faragistes.

      Developments do rather validate SG policy, though. For those of us who greatly dread a Scottish EU exit of any kind, and who wish to hold Nicola & Co to her promise to give us the opportunity for independence before that happens, it is rather mortifying watching this UK governance dance of death, but that dismal spectacle of failure is undoubtedly doing the work for us and it clearly isn’t done yet.

    111. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu Campbell

      “SNP Voters Furious As Party Secures Independence”. That’s a huge presumption. Getting an S30 by a dirty deal achieves NOTHING except harm the SNP and YES movement by linking the SNP with support for the Tory party.

      Many of the commenters on here are still unable to separate party politics from support for independence. Such is the naivety and partisan nature of Scottish politics.

      So British Labour would lead the No vote pushing the lie of: SNP = Tartan Tories. Then British Labour would tell people to reject the tartan tory SNP by rejecting independence ( So British Labour again helps to keep Scotland under British Tory rule).

      That was a tactic in indyref1 and people on here still haven’t learned that lesson, that mixing party politics with the merits of independence HARMS the indy movement by splitting the Yes vote along party lines.

    112. geeo says:

      @lenny hartley.

      Ian Blackford (from Debate linked above).

      “The claim of right acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs, and the obligation of elected representatives, in all their actions and deliberations, to ensure that the interests of the people of Scotland are paramount.

      The claim of right is not simply an historical document but a fundamental principle that underpins the democracy and constitutional framework of Scotland”.
      …………..

       

    113. Republicofscotland says:

      O/T.

      Every English unionist news channel is running with Scotland’s drug deaths. Of course its not because they are concerned about Scots, Stu polls have shown quite the opposite.

      No the unionist news channels including STV, are in my opinion highlighting anything negative in Scotland, and using it to undermine confidence in the country.

      Our own House Jock MSP’s are eagerly falling in line to declare Scotland the drug death country of (the following headlines I’ve heard today) The Western World, Of Europe, Of The Developed World.

    114. Bob Mack says:

      The Yes vote was never about party lines. There are Tories Labour and Lib Dems who voted yes

    115. galamcennalath says:

      The deal that’s needed between Westminster and Holyrood is mutual acceptance that we will probably be parting company as democracy takes its course. And democracy needs to be allowed to resolve the situation.

      We won’t stand in the way of their BrEngexit, and in return they won’t interfere with Scotland choosing its own future.

      It shouldn’t be about the SNP helping the Tories, it should be much more fundamental.

    116. Cubby says:

      O/T

      ITV news – Scotland is a country. It always is on these news programmes when they have something bad to report about Scotland such as drug deaths. What a terrible place they say not like good old England. However, when it come to oil revenues Scotland is a region of the UK.

      When it comes to knife crime it is not an England problem it is a UK problem.

      The Britnat media stinks. Never anything good to say about Scotland.

    117. geeo says:

      Ursula von der Leyen is confirmed as the first female European Commission president.

      Scotland, and Nicola Sturgeon, now has a friend in a very high place indeed !

    118. Breeks says:

      I agree with what you say mostly Rev Stu, but giving the Tories their trouble free Brexit in exchange for a Section 30 Agreement we don’t need seems a weak and unnecessary bargain.

      Yes, Brexit might be inevitable, but what isn’t inevitable is Scotland’s capitulation to stand back and let the will of the Union prevail and overrule the Sovereign will of the Scottish electorate.

      Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is at least the equal of the Good Friday Agreement Peace Treaty, and there is no reason except our own inaction why Scotland shouldn’t have a Constitutional Backstop as resilient and non negotiable as Ireland.

      Johnson and Hunt’s rhetoric about killing off the Irish Backstop is perhaps doable, but the ramifications for wilfully undermining an internationally ratified Peace Treaty will be grievous, with sanctions and downgrading of international status, and hefty restrictions on trade, loss of UN Security Council status, and the UK’s slide towards failed nation status will be augmented with a corresponding slide towards rogue nation status.

      It is really quite inexcusable how Scotland has failed see our Constitutional Sovereignty codified as a similarly robust bulwark against Scotland’s Sovereign integrity being shoved aside and ignored. Scotland’s sovereign Remain mandate should have been a Constitutional Backstop, Scotland’s exclusion from Brexit Negotiations should have been a Constitutional Backstop, and the Tory rhetoric warning first of the resistance towards a democratic referendum in Scotland, which has now progressed into a prohibition of a democratic referendum should have been a third Constitutional Backstop to halt the Westminster Government in its tracks.

      In my opinion, Scotland has already conceded far too much, and compromised time and again in pursuit of some bizarre and highly dubious objectives. I do appreciate the sentiments behind steering England clear of disaster, but the question of why Scotland should find itself leading the fight for a second referendum to stop Brexit and undermine our own Constitutional grounds for divorce has never been satisfactorily answered.

      We are running out of time. A referendum in 2020 is a potential Pandora’s box which will NOT be under our control, and I firmly believe that Scotland MUST start laying down some red lines over Sovereignty beyond which Scotland will not go. Those red lines MUST be in place before 31st October. It is VITAL that they are.

      Get Scotland’s Sovereignty and the “Westminster recognised” Claim of Right codified into one, two, or three Constitutional Backstops which Scotland either wins outright in order to let England proceed with it’s Brexit, or else which remove the wheels from Brexit and render it unable to proceed.

      Never trust a Tory. Never negotiate with Perfidious Albion.

      The Holyrood Government needs to decide if it serves the Devolution Settlement of Westminster, or the sovereign will of the Nation. Do what must be done, or stand aside and get out of the way.

    119. Doug says:

      The SNP has done more than enough in its attempts to stop brexit. Probably more than any other party. No-one can blame the SNP if a no-deal ensues. Indeed a no-deal is the most opportune outcome for ending the union with England. Maybe that’s what the SNP should now be quietly working towards.

      Now is the time to concentrate on Scotland’s independence. The SNP can get as Machiavellian as they want, IMO, but they must not, definitely not, do deals with rabid British nationalists.

    120. Colin Alexander says:

      “The Yes vote was never about party lines. There are Tories Labour and Lib Dems who voted yes”

      In 2014, The British Empire’s Labour Party message was: a YES vote is a pro-SNP vote, if you’re Labour, vote NO.

      As a result not enough Labour voters etc voted for YES, as the majority non-SNP-voting electorate were told again and again that a vote for indy is a vote for the SNP.

      A false message that people on here also stupidly push out on a daily basis.

    121. Capella says:

      Ursula von der Leyen is elected EU Commission head. So anothere extension to BREXIT is definitely offered.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49010801

    122. mike cassidy says:

      No idea if an SNP/Tory deal will be the way indyref2 comes about.

      But if it is

      There’s no way any ‘yes’ supporter is going to abstain or vote ‘no’ because they view the deal as politically smelly.

      Anybody who says otherwise was never voting ‘yes’ in the first place.

    123. geeo says:

      Right on cue, Breeks and an “essenpee bad” diatribe, again.

      As usual, starts with a fair point, soon dissolves into more anti essenpee pish dribbing.

      “Do what must be done or stand aside and get out of the way” he opines.

      Out the way FOR WHO exactly, Breeks ?

      What political party will ride to the ‘rescue’ and HOW and WHEN will this take place ?

      The SNP delivered an indyref in 2014 and are about to deliver AGAIN shortly.

      The PEOPLE of Scotland will deliver independence, it is the job of the SNP to deliver the OPPORTUNITY and means of doing so.

      There is no evidence they are not about to do so.

    124. John McCall says:

      If we are definitely leaving the EU then I think the section 30 question becomes moot.
      Once we leave EU, on no deal or with May’s deal, there is nothing to prevent the Scottish Parliament, along with a majority of elected Scottish representatives at UK and EU level, calling indyref2.
      It will be entirely open for EU governments to recognise and openly suppport the democratic legitimacy of that process as UK will no longer be an EU member.
      Of course Westminster will disagree, even “refuse permission”, but they are hardly an impartial party in a claim of sovereignty. With a weakened economy dependent particularly on the EU for trade, they will hardly be in a position to cut up rough either.
      The Scottish Government will be presenting a very clear choice at that point to the electorate – we can’t be in both unions any more. The choice is to be subordinate partner in UK or an equal partner in EU.

    125. tukey says:

      If brexit is pushed through by proroguing Westminster, as suggested by Boris, what effect does this have on the devolved parliaments and will it affect the way those parliaments can act? If no Westminster, do the devolved parliaments become sovereign during that period and what extra powers (if any) can we assume?

    126. geeo says:

      Coco slobbering again.

      “a vote for indy is a vote for the SNP.

      A false message that people on here also stupidly push out on a daily basis”.
      ……….

      Really ?

      I do not recall anyone saying that.

      I oft read that a vote for the SNP is a vote for advancing the chances of independence, but not the other way round.

      Can you perhaps provide some links to your claim, coco ?

    127. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      I’ll help you out here and do the countdown for you, there are 106 days 4 hours 47 minutes until a Brexit that might or might not happen occurs.

      In the meantime I’ll be getting on with trying to persuade others of the merits of Scotland once more taking control of her own affairs. A government elected by Scots for Scots and in all our interests. What will you be doing meantime?

    128. Sinky says:

      O/t compare and contrast channel four news coverage of Scotland’s drugs deaths. Joe Fitzpatrick refuses to blame UK government while Annie Wells is quick to blame the SNP despite drugs policy a reserved matter

    129. Capella says:

      The National article with video – so not archived – of Ursula von der Leyen confirming another extension after October 31st is possible.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17773097.watch-eu-commission-president-nominee-allow-brexit-extension/

    130. Robert Louis says:

      Excellent article and analysis.

      Not sure WTF the SNP are playing at. Brexit is about to happen, and they are effectively standing on the touchlines, muttering things about ‘sometime’ late next year..section 30, blah de blah..etc. Not sure they realise they are starting to sound completely irrelevant. They need to focus on independence for Scotland. England wants brexit, it is not ours to stop down there.

      Could somebody kindly print this article out, and pop it in the post, to;

      Nicola Sturgeon,
      First Minister of Scotland,
      Bute House,
      6 Charlotte Square,
      Edinburgh.

      Since, from all available evidence, she seem to be completely oblivious to all this.

    131. Capella says:

      Alison Thewliss on the shameful Home Office indifference to drug deaths.
      https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1151194032808140800

    132. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Louis

      “Not sure WTF the SNP are playing at. Brexit is about to happen, and they are effectively standing on the touchlines, muttering things about ‘sometime’ late next year..section 30, blah de blah..etc”

      Have your keepers not noticed you’re on the loose yet halfwit?

      It’s numpties exactly like you that will do their very very best to lose the next Independence referendum. You’re an idiot.

    133. Thepnr says:

      Blah de blah de blah..etc Tube

    134. Alabaman says:

      For once, I must say that B.B.C. Scotland had a balanced report on the drug related deaths in Scotland, where it did mention that Drug Policy was reserved to Westminster,
      Whereas S.T.V. report did not mention that fact at all, and was actually a total attack on the S.N.P. Minister, and the Scottish Government.
      An update, I’ve just watched John Snow on channel 4 interviewing Joe Fitzpatrick, a Portuguese Drugs minister, and, God forbid, Annie Wells.
      As exasperated J.Snow was even handed, and asked relevant questions, but when it came to Annie Wells answers, you could see she’s an absolute numpty, which admittedly is “par” for the Conservative branch office.

    135. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geoo thanks

    136. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Capella. I just loved the Farage crews reaction at the mention of an extension.

      Alison Thewliss was on Jo Coburn’s political programme at lunch time and mentioned that figures in England are compiled in a different way from those in Scotland, or words to that effect. Why would that be? It would be interesting to see what’s actually going on there. Another wee coverup?

    137. Essexexile says:

      Remember that UKIP under Farage drew a lot of support from Labour, particularly in N England. It’s why Labour ‘made no gains’ in the EU elections. They actually haemorraged support to BP due largely to Corbyn’s woolly thinking on Brexit.

    138. frogesque says:

      It’s a golden (well mebees a bit tarnished brass) rule of mine to never post on yon Webby thingy when pished.

      So I won’t.

    139. David says:

      Drug deaths Jon Snow tried to be even handed but did Annie Wells not realize this is something you should not be playing politics with

    140. Legerwood says:

      Sinky says:
      16 July, 2019 at 7:16 pm
      O/t compare and contrast channel four news coverage of Scotland’s drugs deaths. Joe Fitzpatrick refuses to blame UK government while Annie Wells is quick to blame the SNP despite drugs policy a reserved matter””
      …………

      And Jon Snow immediately pulled her up for it. Don’t think she was expecting that. Not the usual deferential treatment Tories in Scotland are used to

    141. Daredevil says:

      SNP would have to sell this the right way to the public before other Unionist parties hijacked this with the Tartan Tories crap.
      Time is running out and options are limited. This is now the best hand the SNP have and should gamble and go “all in” or the opportunity may be lost forever.

    142. chicmac says:

      No point in my posting anything other than ‘what Thepnr said’.

    143. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 18:48,

      While I share your deep concern about how Scotland approaches a coming Halloween deadline that is not going to change (whether Ursula von der Leyen might be willing to delay more or not), I think what you’re signally missing is the effect of the SG’s steady pro-EU policy on Remainers in Scotland. Exactly where it matters most.

      It is credit in the bank of goodwill (as the Robert Morley character quotes in that much-overlooked little gem of a Bogart film “Beat the devil”). When the Brexshit finally hits the fan – as it will very soon now – and these voters finally can’t avoid the hard conclusion that UK-Remain is a complete bust, we will be able to cash in that credit.

      With so much at stake, it’s a pain to let events play out like this, and I feel it myself. But in this respect our opponents are doing their utmost to prove us right in the full glare of an accidentally-complicit media spotlight (heh, heh), so why interfere just yet? It’s not complacency, it’s timing.

      Have faith, Elvis is still in the building and the fat lady hasn’t even started yet.

    144. Petra says:

      Ursula von der Leyen. Definitely not a yes woman. Fan of Nicola Sturgeon.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen

    145. Cubby says:

      I’ll stick with my long held forecast given up after goading by rock. Where is the prick rock anyway now that all his crap forecasts are proving to be crap.

      I’ll stick with no deal, united Ireland and independent Scotland.

      Do not do any deals with Britnats – Tory, labour, libdems, brexit, ukip or any of the tossers. Stupid to trust any of them. We do not need a section 30. Tell them to stuff their sect 30. The Britnats would probably try not to honour it anyway. Britnats cannot be trusted. Trust people like Bojo, Farage, Swinston or Corbyn – you’re having a laugh.

    146. ahundredthidiot says:

      The road to an Independent Scotland needs a heavy dose of pragmatism, not ideology.

      Anyone getting bogged down with just the very thought of doing a deal with the Tories need to grow up – if it is the road to Independence why on earth wouldn’t we do a deal?

      Those ‘Tories’ everyone keep greetin about will be an entity in a foreign country, so who cares.

      And if we lose Indy2, its all over anyway, so who cares if a Deal with the Tories kills the SNP because we will all be finished (and quite rightly so) – those are the stakes.

      Anyone who doesn’t have the stomach for it and manages to get their way will still be bleating for Independence until the day they die.

      I would rather live to see it.

    147. Wobbly says:

      I would expect the SNP to abstain in a WM Brexit vote in return for WM granting, then staying out of our independence referendum.

      If the UK wants to leave the EU then Scotland should not do anything to interfere with the wishes of the UK electorate.

      Scotland can then make a choice on whether it wants to leave the EU and through its lot in with the UK or vote for Independence.
      If we do vote for independence we can then vote on what sort of EU membership we desire if at all.

      I personally would like Scotland to be a member of the EU but that decision is not mine alone to make.

      If Scotland decides to through its lot in with the UK then its time to emigrate for me.

    148. Catch 22,

      `a dilemma from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions`,

      we need a section 30 but getting a section 30 means facilitating brexit which in turn could lose us enough votes to scupper freedom,

      and if we lose again Scotland will be monumentally f@cked.

    149. robertknight says:

      SNP shouldn’t stand in the way of No Deal.

      Some post-colonial President, whose name escapes me, was once asked if they thought Scottish Independence was likely. His response was “No”, because in his opinion Scotland “hasn’t suffered enough”. Perhaps he has a point. ‘Better the devil you know’ ceases to be an option when the ‘devil you know’ becomes intolerable.

      If the SNP sit on their hands and let a No-Deal Brexit Westminster dissolve into outright anarchy, all they need do then is present the electorate in Scotland with a simple choice on the ballot paper in May 2021 of an SNP majority at Holyrood, (both in terms of seats AND votes cast), repealing the Act of Union with England and entering into negotiation to join EFTA and the EEA; with full EU membership, including €urozone, to be determined by a future referendum.

      No need for any Section 30, so GIRFUY Westminster!

    150. Essexexile says:

      For once, I am in heartfelt agreement with Cubby.
      You simply cannot do a deal with the Tories in which they get what they want first. They absolutely will NOT honour any promise about S30.
      They will deny they promised it, seek to introduce caveats (70+% Yes), try and link it to a future sharing of resources etc. and if all that fails they’ll just change the leader and say the promise is null and void – and we’ll be out of the EU so appealing to international courts will be virtually impossible.
      I hope (and actually I believe) NS is way to smart to be drawn in to a trap like this.

    151. defo says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says: at 3:02 pm
      “I still think a lot of Scottish folk will not want to be part of sending England and Wales down the swanny. That’s how it would look.”

      It would look like giving them the thing they voted for.
      —————-

      D’accord. Totally. The electorate aren’t ALL idiots.

      But…I’m hoping for a happy ending all round.

      An election is contrived to settle Brexit.

      Those who voted for this farrago get what they’ve been made to think they want, and we can observe the catastrophic outcome in due course.
      The SNP campaign on EU membership through the medium of independence, return a 50+ seat outcome, declare independence with the provision of a confirmatory ref, and you can shove section 30 where the Sun doesn’t shine.

      What’s not to like?

    152. ben madigan says:

      RE The SNP as a vehicle for independence
      Nicola has often said the people of scotland have to ask for it.

      I suggest all cultural associations/sporting clubs/recreational activity groups/hill walkers, mountain rescue, professional associations and trade unions, members of the legal, medical, business, architects and engineers, teachers professional bodies, ambulance workers and drivers, nurses, doctors, horse-riders and cyclists, bikers, scientists etc) each have a debate and a vote one evening and put out the results in an advertisement in their local papers, online and send a message to the SNP –

      Something along the lines of
      “The Dundee/Stirling/Glasgow pigeon fanciers/anglers association/engineers and teachers TU” (delete as appropriate) at a meeting last night voted to support Scottish Independence “

    153. geeo says:

      Lenny Hartley @7.41pm

      No problem 🙂

    154. Petra says:

      Dearie me, Dirty money Davidson won’t be too happy with that. Time for Scottish Labour supporters to join the Independence clan. All will be made very welcome indeed.

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/07/16/large-scale-poll-suggests-death-of-scottish-labour-and-tory-branches/

    155. Big Jock says:

      There are ways and means to independence. However doing deals with Westminster is never going to end in the result you hoped.

      Even if it could be agreed. They would fix it somehow. They don’t need a section 30. What they need is some cahonies to assert their mandate.

    156. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      robertknight @ 20:44,

      This is the other side of the coin, and is complacency. (Or perhaps a complete gumption bypass.) Waiting until everybody else has decided what our fate will be, by way of entirely incidental collateral damage, is a recipe for total disaster. The worse it is, the worse it is (not the better). Our leadership will at the right time have to shift a gear or two to steer our own way out of this megaguddle, or they will shoulder some of the ensuing blame. As a toxic combination of confusion and Brexit normalisation begins to set in, the pathetic whine will rise to the heavens “why didn’t you do something to save us from this? You’re USELESS!”.

      It’s a lesson from history that you can accrue as much blame for failing to act at the right time as you can from acting badly. The Mega-Mitigation Trap lies in wait for the unready. And there is a coterie of enemies of independence just itching to spring it.

      At some time, and soon, we have to stop being a mere bystander and start being a Player.

    157. Ken500 says:

      The Tories have a majority of 3? There are 30 Tories against (a no deal) Brexit. Brexit will never happen. Even after a GE. The Tories will lose, The SNP will not have to support the Tories for an S30. The Tories will be gone into oblivion. A S30 could come from anywhere. Any collapse of Westminster or the UK economy. Through the Courts or EU support. Right to self determination or self government if people vote for it.

      Churchill took Iran’s Oil in the 1950’s. Caused havoc. The West has been taking Muslim’s countries Oil and resources, holding them back. The illegal Iraqi war and other interference, destruction, attacks and sanctions. The Iraq War kept secret for 100 years under the Official Secrets Act. The Iraq/Iran war Western interference. Britain and France carved up the Middle East and denied the people the vote. Reneged on promises. Balfour Declaration. Johnston’s grandfather, a journalist, was killed by Turkish nationalists. The West supplying the Saudis with weapons. $69Billion. Pop 33million. 1/3 migrants?

    158. Calum McKay says:

      Anything can happen, Johnson would happily jettison Scotland at some point sooner or later to remain in charge of England – as the tory membership have ably demonstrated!

      Scotland is expendable!

    159. Cubby says:

      FFS Essexexile says he agrees with my post. I better read it over again. Now this is the first time Mr Essex has got me worried. Perhaps he is an independence supporter after all.

      Naw don’t be stupid.

    160. Thomas Valentine says:

      I feel more than think any deal with the Brexiters should only be one that guarantees independence. They can dress it up how ever they like even call it “The Scottish Free State” or Dominion of Scotland. Keep their flag even. The BBC can sell it for them.

    161. Cubby says:

      All those posters who say we need a section 30 – one of you want to explain why. If the best you can come up with is “that big Britnat told me it would be illegal if we didn’t get one” then don’t bother.

      A section 30 “cap in hand ” request is nothing more than agreeing to be held in a prison.

      When Mandela was held in prison for all those years it was legal under an apartheid state law. Who supports that today?

    162. Frank Waring says:

      Sometime in the autumn, it will at last be certain on what terms the UK will leave the EU. If at that point, enough Scots want independence, and demand it sufficiently clearly, then we shall get it. I don’t know how many will be ‘enough’ — how many grains are necessary to make a ‘heap’ of sugar? And if I did know, this knowledge would not make the outcome any more or any less likely.

    163. Dave Robb says:

      There is no way that the Tory Party, regardless of who leads it, will ever honestly and fairly stick to a promise after the event.

      The last few years alone a littered with abandoned manifesto commitments, broken promises on the police, benefit changes, hospitals, education, open government, brexit with a deal, before we even get to the famous vow.

      If the SNP made a deal to abstain or vote for Brexit to get a referendum, this referendum would be simply ignored or indefinitely delayed – worse – hijacked with a 70% rule or similar, voting bans on young people and “non-British” citizens, BBC and STV on full propaganda mode, voting manipulation and fraud, attempts to steal our resources to fund Wangland restoration after Brexit as suugested by the

    164. Dave Robb says:

      STORY CONTINUED – I HATE COMPUTERS!
      …. Tories themselves.

      I will always vote for Independence. I hope not to have to fight for it. I would consider suggested level of political deceit to be a betrayal of ourselves, never mind the English Remainers.

      We do need our SNP leaders to focus on the main game for a change, and look up a Plan B and even C.

      Most of all, start talking to us.

    165. Essexexile says:

      The option of another extension is my bet. I just don’t see any way out of this for either the UK or EU and no deal only exists as a threat (by both sides), it won’t happen.
      Having already had one extension without too much fuss afterwards, let’s be honest, it makes a second extension (and then others) more likely.
      As I’ve said previously, I believe the UKs permanent status (into the medium term at least) is ‘leaving the EU’. There will be no point at which we’ve definitively left and no point at which we’re definitively not leaving.
      Purely as a consequence, it happens to be the perfect strategy for WM to frustrate the push for Scottish independence.
      How NS cuts the issue of independence loose of the relentless Brexit juggernaut (having firmly tied the rope herself) will be a difficult, but necessary step.

    166. geeo says:

      Look at all the weary-willy, usual suspects, trying to conflate Stu’s thoughts in this topic as if they are SNP policy !!

      Newsflash, thunderfucks !!

      It has NEVER been SNP policy to ask he tories for a deal of any kind, so stop trying to pretend it fucking is, or even might be.

      Desperate British Nationalist splitters.

      Fooling nobody.

    167. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave Robb @ 21:54,

      Yup. If anyone doubts it, just hark back to what the Tories under Cameron did to the LibDems over the AMS referendum. An agreement to have it, followed by doing their damndest to destroy it. With an indecisive Labour on the sidelines wringing their hands (plus ca change, eh?), despite it being a manifesto policy!

      The only agreement with the Tories under BoJo I would countenance is one to go our separate ways, there and then. No referendum, no delaying tactics, no room for manoevre, sign on the dotted line and part, Czecho-Slovak style.

      But what chance of that, eh…?

    168. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@10.03pm

      That’s more like it Dr Doom back to his normal concern trolling. “Let’s be honest”

    169. Derick fae Yell says:

      No thanks

    170. stewartb says:

      O/T The drug death statistics for Scotland published today are truly awful – been getting worse for some years now and probably for a complex of reasons.

      However for interest, a simple comparison with the statistic for England and Wales as a whole hides some significant geographic differences. Notably, the death rate per 1 million population get worse the further away one gets from London and the SE by a factor of more than three.

      Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsrelatedtodrugpoisoninginenglandandwales/2017registrations

      Drug-related deaths in England and Wales as a whole related to drug misuse in 2017: 43.7 deaths million.

      Highest rates are in:
      NE region: 83.2 deaths per million
      NW region: 64.7
      Wales: 64.5

      Lowest rates are in:
      SE region: 37.3
      East of England region: 34.6
      London: 24.6

    171. Capella says:

      Alison Thewliss again on drugs and the problem of it being a reserved issue. For those of you wondering what the SNP is doing to get the message across. We have to have drugs policy devolved now. Also independence. It’s not an either or, it’s both and.

      https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1151165065242058752

    172. Essexexile says:

      Cockwomble and Shitgibbon.
      The endlessly predictable, defensively paranoid coc(k)teau twins of WoS BTL.

      Although I do occasionally agree with points the two of you make, your persistent take on the Yes movement as an aggressive, unwelcoming clique is just a big pair of hairy bow locks and I do wish you’d have a day off. Or actually, just every day.

    173. David says:

      I reckon there’s an option 5.

      After Boris wins the leadership election he announces 3 things straight away:
      * He will go and negotiate the best deal (in his opinion) which may be no deal or may be a “new” deal (aka May’s deal with some cosmetic changes)
      * He plans to hold an election one week before the brexit deadline
      * The bill to trigger the election (which will require 2/3 support because of the fixed term parliaments act) will also delegate from parliament to whoever leads the government post election the power to ratify whatever the deal is, or leave with no deal, or revoke A50, or try for a further extension

      That way, there’ll be an election that he’ll almost certainly win (for the reasons given in article) and that will effectively serve as a 2nd referendum… Basically same outcome as described in article, but very hard for any opposition to argue against as large bits of it are what they’ve been asking for.

    174. robertknight says:

      Robert J Sutherland….

      “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” – Sun Tzu.

      Whilst the enemies of independence are ripping out each others throats at Westminster over who is to blame for the socio-economic cluster-f**k that is a No-Deal Brexit, the SNP would best placed to let them get on with it.

      When the Yoons have proven themselves to be incapable of governing, the SNP can step in with the alternative to the chaos of a Trumpesque, Baw-Jaws led Tory Govt. propped up by Brexiteers and Demented Ulster Puritans.

      Yes/SNP needs to have won the argument before putting it to the electorate. Not try to win whilst fighting a campaign – be that a referendum or election campaign. We tried that before…

    175. James Barr Gardner says:

      O/T Emily Maitlis is nae Sharon Stone, nae way !

    176. Capella says:

      Although we can’t predict what the next Tory PM will do, because its likely to be arch idiot Boris Johnston, we can consider what they can’t do.

      They can’t cancel BREXIT – they’d all be swinging from lamposts if they tried to do that.
      They can’t have a NO DEAL BREXIT, Gina Millar and John Major will take them to court because Parliament has voted against that.
      They can’t have a border in Ireland – that would breach the Good Friday Agreement and US Senators won’t do deals with them if they do that.
      They can’t have a border down the Irish sea, that would breach the Treaty of Union.

      So the only option available is to have a border down the Irish sea.

      It breaches the Treaty of Union but who is going to bother about that? Scotland? Well we just tell them to shut up and do what they’re told.
      The DUP? Yes they will stop voting with the Tories but then Boris can call an election and get a majority from his English constituents to vote for his manifesto.

      Yes it will hugely disadvantage Scotland. Yes Scotland will call for a S30 which Boris will refuse.
      Do we have the right to self determination or not?

    177. Ghillie says:

      Provocative article Rev Stu.

      Thepnr, I share your optimism 🙂 and agree with your comments.

      Nicola Sturgeon stated clearly that it is necessary to see what exactly the final outcome of Brexit is.

      Recently NS warned that Scotland could be in for a very difficult six months. So be aware and prepared folks.

      Nicola Sturgeon has also said that the SNP will not be doing deals with the Tories. Wise woman.

      I believe that Scotland will gain our Independence with the integrity we have always shown.

      Keep the faith folks and hold fast.

    178. Ghillie says:

      Welsh Sion – THAT is good news 🙂

    179. James Barr Gardner says:

      robertknight says:
      16 July, 2019 at 10:48 pm
      Nothing exceeds like excess, there are more Yessers than Yoons. Roll on Indy Ref 2.

    180. msean says:

      How much does it cost to send all those multiple reporters/crews to Scotland when there is already a presence in Glasgow? Who pays for this?

    181. Capella says:

      Sarah Smith just came out with saying that it’s “Convenient for the Scottish government to blame lack of controls over drugs law” as the reason for drugs death,

      https://twitter.com/Christov79/status/1151237667864158208

    182. Cubby says:

      BBC Newsnight

      Dundee/Scotland copping the rap for life expectancy in the UK stalling/ reversing due to its drugs deaths. Nothing to do with austerity or Universal Credit then.

      Britnat media stinks.

    183. Golfnut says:

      Is the union more important to Westminster/ establishment than Brexit, the answer is no. If they can hang on to Scotland, that’s the icing on the cake, the cake is the money off shored, protecting their interests is the priority, no deal Brexit will happen.

      Passing the withdrawal bill, followed by the queens signature put the crown at risk, look up the dissolution of the burghs in Scotland and Falkirks refusal to comply. Imo, the inclusion of the Henry the VIII laws was to protect the English crown and bugger all to do with usurping the Royal prerogative.

      Is a Section 30 order necessary, no. Viewed through devolution spectacles the need for it might have some traction, but not where the crown, the Crown not Westminster, has breached the Treaty of Union.

      2020 is the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Forsyths main objection to the reconvening of the Scottish Parliament was that the People of Scotland could vote for independence and the Scottish Parliament would repeal the Act of Union and Westminster could do nothing to stop it.

    184. Capella says:

      Sarah Smith “Of course, it’s very convenient for the Scottish Government to argue that they are being hampered by Westminster….” broadcast:

      https://twitter.com/Macnessie/status/1151255746123894784

    185. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      robertknight @ 22:48,

      I agree fully with everything you wrote there, but it misses my point. There is undoubtedly a need for careful marshalling of resources, as I wrote in a companion posting upthread in response to Breeks, which perhaps you missed.

      But I’m very sure that your Chinese savant would agree that you can’t possibly win by refusing to fight, or turning up too late, after the enemy has captured the field…

    186. Terry callachan says:

      what we don’t want is no agreement with the EU about what will happen at the border of north and south of Ireland.
      Something has to be arranged because the south will be in the EU and the north will not.

      The EU will quickly take steps to have some sort of border control even if it’s just a light touch
      The UK in the event of a no deal brexit will not do anything but might then stir up confrontation and accuse the EU of causing trouble by whatever light touch is applied

      How long will that go on for ?
      I cannot see the EU ignoring UK imports of USA beef and genetically modified products if there is a chance that it could make its way into the EU via Ireland
      So hopefully not long

      If there is a general election and remain voters elect enough MPs to make a coalition possible I would hope that SNP stay well clear of a coalition with remainers because in my view BREXIT is the best chance Scotland has of a strong majority in a Scottish independence referendum in favour
      of Scottish independence.

      If SNP go into coalition with labour and Lib Dem’s to stop brexit the snp will at the same time be ending any chance of a majority in favour of Scottish independence because all those who would vote NO to Indy but are prepared to vote YES to Indy to stay in the EU would just go back to being NO to Scottish independence voters

      I do believe that party loyalty in Westminster is cracking at the seams
      There is every possibility that there are MPs scattered amongst all party’s in Westminster who are at this very moment calculating a way to ensure Scottish independence fails , their best ploy is to trap Scotland in a way that SNP supports remainers in Westminster and therebye ensures it’s own defeat in the Scottish independence referendum .

      Lib Dem’s and Labour will welcome SNP with open arms in Westminster as great allies and friends to form a government and then stab them in the back in Scotland to prevent Scottish independence and keep the union together

      DONT trust any of them in Westminster
      Don’t coalition with any of them in Westminster

      BREXIT itself will ensure maximum numbers support Scottish independence we don’t need help from labour Lib Dem or Tory if brexit happens
      Especially if it’s a no deal brexit

      As for a coalition with the tories to see brexit through in exchange for their agreement on holding a Scottish independence referendum I hope that doesn’t happen I hope it doesn’t become the best option available to SNP but it just might
      How will labour voters in Scotland who are prepared to change their vote on Scottish independence from NO to YES in order to remain in the EU react to that ?
      Well I think if it’s really the staying in the EU that is priority to them what does it matter ?

    187. Terry callachan says:

      Golfnut 1127pm post

      I agree

    188. scunner says:

      Been discussing the drug deaths stats and wondering what the media are trying to achieve. Don’t believe this is genuine concern but rather just another “It’s shite being Scottish” story.

      Is it an attempt to elicit sympathy for expired drug abusers?
      I know this sounds unsympathetic but I can’t see conservative (small c) older folks wailing over this particular subject.

      Only strengthens the call for devolution of drug policy – which of course will never happen.

      Next broadside Scotrail, NHS, potholes, who knows… which part of the rotation are we on in mid-July?

    189. Terry callachan says:

      Cubby you post 1125pm

      Drug deaths in Scotland reporting
      Lies from BBC again

      See this

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/05/06/why-drug-related-deaths-in-scotland-are-not-two-and-a-half-times-higher-than-rest-of-uk/

    190. Terry callachan says:

      Ghillie….1102pm

      Well said

    191. Artyhetty says:

      Is Scotland not just a bit fcked no matter what England decides.

      The Britnats have it in the bag, they will get what they want, and Scotland is taken down in the process. Just look at what the English government REFUSE to devolve to Scotland’s government. That tells us all we need to know about how Scotland is and will be discarded when it comes to any even minor changes to the devolution settlement.

      Re; Cubby@ 11.35

      Dundee, is that not the most convenient city by which the Britnats allow drugs into the UK without really any maritime policing?
      Keeping people addicted, handing out drugs on the streets, fabulous way to control the people and, bash the SNP to boot.
      Drugs have been the absolute scourge of Scotland, it’s not by accident either!

    192. Terry callachan says:

      Essexexile…your post 1025pm

      They cant discuss anything
      They just call everyone british nationalists and insult people
      I call them the best busybees working for the british nationalist

      Hey ho

    193. Dr Jim says:

      I see the go to Labour Tory Doctor Richard Simpson is being brought out to tear the Scottish government to shreds over the drugs problems that began to incline when the SNP were not even around, he’ll be on our Telly screens shortly to tell us the SNP didn’t go door to door or alley to alley to cure a problem that began a long time ago and that’s why most of these drug deaths are resultant from historical problems and mostly in an age group who have been unfortunately addicted for very much longer than since 2007

      The good Doctor Simpson offers no solution or advice he merely blames the SNP for not being as hard on *offenders* as the UK because the UK has the same problems but they’re solving them apparently, and that the SNP are too focussed on Independence and (as he calls Independence supporters)*the unthinking fan base* that’s us folks, yes the good Dr Simpson calls at least 50% of the Scottish population *unthinking* that’s bound to get him on the Telly

      It probably has also escaped the good Dr Simpsons forensic examination of what he enjoys criticising the most, the SNP, but the counting of drug deaths specifically in Scotland includes all types of death by poisonings whereas in England and Wales deaths are not recorded in this way so certain overdoses of substances are not recorded as illegal drug deaths because they may be prescribed medicines

      I’m no expert in this area so I only know what I read, and if it is and seems the case that these deaths are recorded in different ways then there can be no like for like comparison

      My guess is the good Dr Richard Simpson knows that already though
      A bit like the 4 hour waiting times at A&E, remember that where in England they didn’t start the clock until the patient started treatment meaning the patient could’ve been there for many hours beforehand but in Scotland the clock began ticking on arrival at A&E but the media made like England were way in front, which was a lie

      But the good media knew that too

      This problem isn’t something they should just be batting around scoring political points on anyway, it’s a problem they should be attempting to solve like the SNP are making a stab at doing

      Too much to ask of Tory and Labour to think about doing that though, much better to have more dead folk for the blame agenda

      One other small point, if Scotland were Independent the SNP would already be doing it the way half the rest of the world is tackling it and having some success at helping people not to die

    194. PacMan says:

      An alternative strategy for the SNP.

      Make a deal with the Tories in support for Brexit to get representatives from the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland governments to have a say in UK wide policies like defence and foreign policy.

      As plain as the nose on your face, never trust a Tory. Watch this implemented and watch it get sidelined as is the Tory way. Lets see how the BritNat media spin it out.

      Another nail in the coffin for Westminster and another step forward for independence.

    195. Wull says:

      Abulhaq says:
      16 July, 2019 at 4:18 pm
      ‘The English political situation and the ‘metropolitan’ nonsense that forms the socio-cultural backdrop to it is not our world. The skilled application of the Englishman William of Ockam’s famous razor to our politics would not go amiss.’

      Forgive me, Abulhaq, a brief but rather pedantic OT comment. You might be pleased to know that there is a body of academic opinion which claims that ‘Ockham’s razor’ wasn’t invented by the Englishman Ockham at all. He got it, they say, from someone else. In fact, from the Scotsman, John of Duns, who was apparently the first to articulate and apply it.

      I am not competent to judge the matter, but presume that this body of opinion is correct. The John of Duns in question is of course Duns Scotus (c.1265-1308). Ockham (c.1280-c.1349) came after him, and certainly knew his writings, so he could easily have borrowed it. As far as I know he never claimed to invent it.

      Although Ockham disagrees, even vehemently, with Scotus on some things, there are also texts where he greatly praises him. They were both Franciscans, although very different from each other.

      Maybe, in the present context, we could consider this confusion as yet another (although now ancient) case of ‘mis=labelling’. In the sense that the wrong ‘flag’ has been attached to the product! The ‘razor’ in question was ‘invented’ by a Scotsman, not an Englishman. The Englishman in question simply used the Scottish product …

      As a consequence the idea got an English label (Ockham being a village in Surrey) stuck on it instead of the Scottish one it should have had (Duns being in Berwickshire, on our side of the border). Of course, Scotus was an international, European figure, as well as being a Scottish one. Ockham too, spending most of his life in Europe, both of them dying in different parts of what is now Germany. (Scotus in Cologne, where he is buried, and Ockham – I think – in Bavaria).

      So it would be OK to put a ‘Union’ flag on the product too – so long it was the 12-Stars-on-a-Blue-Background of the flag of the European Union, that is. Not that other Union flag – the red, white and blue one – that is appearing all over our supermarkets in order to dissuade the customer from buying, and encourage all of us to vote for independence.

      The EU has strong laws against mis-labelling. We might even get our ‘razor’ back … eventually.

    196. A C Bruce says:

      Sarah Smith is reprehensible.

    197. scunner says:

      @ Terry callachan 12.19am

      Thanks for the link. We had discussed likely regional variation and the fact the media seemed to simply skip over that. As per usual.

      Noted that they couldn’t quite make up their minds whether we were worst in developed world, they mentioned worst in EU – which might suggest not worst in EUROPE as a whole. Who knows. Just needs to sound plausible to those who watch this shit and still haven’t twigged that it reeks.

      Scotland always a Country when focusing on something awful. Region the rest of the time if mentioned at all. As per usual.

    198. Joe says:

      I would add that even besides that very good analysis that the Brexit issue would continue to define British politics even if it could be magically cancelled altogether before Oct 31. Its an issue thats not going to disappear.

    199. Petra says:

      Just returned home after a fabulous night out. EVERYONE supporting Independence including prior NOs. Nearly cried my eyes out. Well I did. Now happy, happy, happy.

      I’m actually a wee bit tipsy right now, lol, lol, lol, lol. Dancing all around the house. Husband beiling, lol.

      Forget about stookie May, just let we Scots who are known to be the best party folks and dancers (we know how to move) in the World dance along to Dancing Queen in a normal Scottish fashion. And eh, turn up the volume.

      Go, go go …

      All my love and best wishes to all on here who are fighting their butts off for Independence. Come the day (and by God it is coming) we’ll have the best party that the World has ever seen.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRoWiTcO7dk

    200. Petra says:

      Another totally benign post, in fact really happy and totally obnoxious, not appearing on here. What’s going on?

    201. Petra says:

      Oh well forget about my last post and just dance, dance, dance.

    202. Petra says:

      And eh it doesn’t matter where you came from, you live in Scotland now, just clasp hands and arms and join us. We’ll protect and look after you … when we get shot of Westminster.

    203. Effijy says:

      Now I think is the top me to copy a little bit of Westminster’s corruption
      And employ their same methods of assessing the cause of death.

      We have devolved powers over NHS Scotland so let’s inform our Doctors
      That if excessive levels of drugs are present in a body then the death certificate
      Reads death by suicide.

      Let’s play them at their own game and next year we can claim to have had the most dramatic
      Decrease in drug deaths in the Western World.

      Portugal and Germany have had success with changing laws to permit managed facilities where
      Addicts can access safer drugs and clean needles etc.

      Sod Westminster’s refusal to devolve this power.
      Let’s just do it and infirm the media that the lives of Scotland’s citizens comes before the wishes
      Of a crippled and incompetent English government .

      It will be very difficult to fund this as Westminster continues to cut the Scottish budget but something must be done.

    204. Undeadshuan says:

      For the SNP to enable the tory/brexit party in any way, would be the end of the snp in Scotland and would lose votes at a crucial time.

      Better to sit with popcorn and let brexit/torys continue building support for independence.

      Even if SNP vote against brexit, the torys will still get it through, one way or another.
      Labour are finished and wont be a credible government in waiting until Corbyn is ditched. Which is not on the horizon.

    205. Dorothy Devine says:

      Petra , that was like a wee Cactus impression !

      Wish I could have had some of what you have had but your posts fair cheered me up and I hope and pray that it is comin’ yet for a’ that!

    206. Ghillie says:

      Petra, your happiness is contagious 🙂

      So glad you had such a great night out AND especially that you met so many No turned to YES voters! Just brilliant!

      Yes, our Indy celebrations will be the best party ever in the whole wide World and the whole wide World will join us 🙂

    207. Sinky says:

      Traditionally on UK wide politics programmes opposition claims are aired and government of the day responds. In Scotland Bbc grills Snp rep then later Tory or Labour is given chance to attack government

    208. Cubby says:

      Terry Callachan@12.25am

      “They can’t discuss anything”

      I well remember that it was you and Dr Doom who both started with the personal insults not me. So give it a rest with the victimisation.

      You like to post on WGD. Funny no comment by you on a recent WGD post. You know the one about anti English racism. Didn’t fancy discussing your racist case with WGD.

      Callachan you know what you can do with your can’t discuss anything comment.

    209. Ian Foulds says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      16 July, 2019 at 4:08 pm
      “We already know the terms, these were laid down in the Withdrawal Agreement of Nov 2018 – and the EU have said no further negotiation will happen.”

      Yup. The only thing to be settled now is whether it’s those terms (hugely damaging to Scotland) or no deal (absolutely colossally damaging, and far more likely).

      Apart from reading all 599 pages of the Agreement, does anyone know if there is a foreshortened version, pertinent to the Scottish woman/man-in-the-street, which will show how this is going to affect them and our Country?

    210. RM says:

      You sometimes wonder do the SNP really want independence.

    211. Ghillie says:

      Yes, the SNP really really really want Independence 🙂

    212. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      RM at 8.11

      Who does?

    213. Ken500 says:

      Drug deaths 1,000 out of 50,000. 1 out of 50. 2%.

      The Councils (unionist) are not supporting proper ‘one chance’, total abstinence drug rehabs. Facilities are closing. Not supporting social care. It has to be paid privately or through insurance. Under SNHS care Doctors could refer patients. Every Health Board except Grampian supported proper rehab facilities. Grampian would not support primary care (most important) for drink/drug abuse. People can die detoxing.

      Alcohol related deaths are falling. There are less chronic admissions. MUP has reduced alcohol consumption and is reducing hospital admissions. Proper rehab total abstinence facilities are cheaper than prison. ‘Care in the community’ – prison. Some Councils wanted to put homeless people, drug/alcohol addicted in prison. Drug/alcohol abuse causes crime. Proper rehab counselling is more cost affective. Anyone affected should approach AA or NA for help. Even families and friends. The whole community. Affects everyone. All communities. Increases poverty. Instead of people leading healthier lives. With ‘kinship’ payments less children are in care. Care allowance has increased.

    214. RM says:

      SNP politicians have to get more radical, just now their playing the game with Westminster, you sometimes have to start playing dirty to win especially when your outnumbered 10-1

    215. Ken500 says:

      Polling figures suggest GE Labour/LibDem majority in rest of the UK. Tories out. SNP majority in Scotland. Brexit would not happen. Independence Aye.

    216. Cubby says:

      Terry Callachan@12.25am

      One of your more ridiculous posts.

      You accuse me of calling everyone British Nationalists then say “I call them the best busybees working for British Nationalist ”

      Hey ho – Silly silly nonsense Terry old boy.

    217. Ian Brotherhood says:

      All this fretting over doing a deal with Tories…

      We’ve known for a long time that Tories and Labour are two cheeks of the same proverbial when it comes to Scottish indy, and we know why. We also know that they’re increasingly wrinkly/smelly cheeks belonging to cadaverous parties which will not survive Brexit.

      It’s a deathbed deal. Let’s just hold our noses, get those signatures, then GTF.

    218. Sinky says:

      Before commenting on the horrendous drugs deaths figures please read:

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/?s=why+drug+related+deaths+are+not+

      As figures are compiled differently in England and always linked to poverty.

      Also Scotland needs more powers to deal with drug policies

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17774548.plea-tories-work-scottish-government-drug-deaths/

    219. Republicofscotland says:

      Whilst Joe Fitzpatrick, Scotland’s Public Health minister pleads with Westminster yet again to consider drug consumption rooms in Scotland to help save lives,nasty Tory MSP Annie Wells had this to say.

      She accused Fitzpatrick of cowardice, that in their desperation nationalist are pinning their hopes on consumption rooms. Its a cowardly approach, they’re hiding behind a ruse.

      Unsurprisingly Wells a not too bright and a awful orator offers no ideas on the matter, a very typical Tory branch office acolyte in Scotland.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17774538.scottish-drug-deaths-joe-fitzpartick-39-s-plea-tories-talks/

    220. Ken500 says:

      Dr Simpson and Labour did not support Minimum Unit Pricing. The only Party that did not want to see a reduction in alcohol consumption and earlier death. Supported illegal wars killing and maiming millions of people. Total hypocrites.

      More people have died because of Westminster imbecile policies. Austerity. The Tories have killed off 120,000 people and reduced life expectancy in the rest of the UK. Falling for the first time. The Tories are killing off their own supporters. The majority of the members are male and over seventy. 120,000 of them. Join the Tory Party and die younger.

    221. Sean McNulty says:

      Bartering a WM govt only for a Section 30 Order lacks ambition and could of course be spun by the Unionist media as the SNP having indy blinkers etc.

      Let’s ask instead for all constitutional matters, and all broadcasting, to be devolved, and/or whatever else is required to make sure that WM never again has permission to deny an indyref.

      Especially if bundled with devolving of non-constitutional powers, and the return to Scotland of every stolen in the ‘power grab’, this could be sold to the Scottish electorate as just asking for what they were promised by The Vow — significantly increased powers for Holyrood.

      Other than that, your analysis in OP is bang-on.

    222. Republicofscotland says:

      Meanwhile Westminster has already rejected a petition calling for a Section 30 Order to be granted. Is this a touchstone to if and when Sturgeon get around to asking for the S30, and if so should we be urging the SNP to go with Chris McEleny’s the people are sovereign plan?

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17774533.uk-government-rejects-indyref2-petition/

    223. Dave Robb says:

      I would assert for most posters here, and in Scotland generallv, Independence requires that we win hearts and minds.

      We believe – quite rationally – that an independent Scotland could survive and thrive if we made our own decisions as to what to spend our resources on. This holds true whether it is a sane drugs policy, greener energy and transport, better social care, refusal to spend on WMDs.

      We also tend to believe that we have a historic cultural existence as a nation in our own right, with distinct laws, and our own education systems and official religion. Most of us accept the view that we have an attitude of mind that values ALL our citizens – hence our approach to “being Scottish”.

      We should have a moral code which eschews the cynical manipulation, double-dealing and outright lies exemplified by Westminster, whether by the opportunistic LibDems, the factional Labourites, or the masters of darkness in the form of the Tories.

      I make no claim that our politicians here are immune – only that they are near at hand, under our control.

      A newly independent Scotland should set higher standards. To get there requires either objective reasoning or strong faith or both. We win by democratic actions, exposing the corruption chaining us in a Union we reject. We should not do our equivalent of a bung to the DUP, by sullying our reputation by adopting our enemy’s methods.

      Our SNP government have demonstrated that they are generally competent, occasionally innovative, and capable of running our affairs at least as well as Westminster.

      We now need to have them step up to campaigning for their raison d’etre – and start to tell us HOW as well as why.

    224. galamcennalath says:

      ” The Brexit vote coupled with austerity has hurt household incomes more than anything other than recessions in the past 60 years and has done even more damage than the economic slump of the early 1990s “

      http://archive.is/PYaFQ

      Wait till Brexit actually happens! Then it will be Callachan’s winter of discontent, Thatcher’s de-industrialisation, Major’s recession, and Blair’s financial crisis all rolled into one.

    225. Abulhaq says:

      @RM 8:11
      Independence and the extraction of more executive powers from Westminster to Edinburgh are two distinct goals.
      The Sturgeon team believes in the efficacy of the latter. Whether ultimately her team can deliver is dependent on the mood in London which does not look promising. Should London say no, we are on a crash course with the system. Is the team up to the job and prepared for battle?
      Devolution has indeed ‘fudged’ the independence issue.

    226. naina tal says:

      Dave McEwan Hill 8:18 am:

      “RM at 8.11

      Who does?”

      Bit ambiguous Dave! At first reading I thought you meant “who really wants independence” I’m sure that wasn’t your intention.
      I was wondering if you were wondering who it was that was wondering?

    227. Republicofscotland says:

      Kevin McKenna’s column is an eye opener today, as to why is the SNP hierarchy paralysed on independence at this very crucial time.

      A senior SNP figure told McKenna there isn’t even a campaign for independence if we crash out of the EU without a deal.

      What’s going on?

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17774518.kevin-mckenna-snp-paralysed-indyref2-just-wrong-time/

    228. desimond says:

      Would all these scenarios be the best opportunity for SNP to withdraw from Westminster citing it is no longer fit for purpose.

      That way, they do no side with Tories and do not get tarred with that slur throughout any further campaign.

      If a deal was needed for any approval for a referendum then I would still doubt any fair “deal”…im sure they would come up with a ‘50% of all possible voters ( living and dead if history tells us owt)needed” to bugger up any chance of leaving on their watch.

      After Brexit the UK will regress into one huddled frightened mass…all 3 Unionist parties will not allow us to go with their best wishes after seeing the shambles and economic disaster of last few years.

      Could best thing be to just ride it out until a general election and stand on a “Majority seats and we walk away” manifesto. All or nothing as Independence will be impossible within next 5 years one way or another.

    229. robert alexander harrison says:

      See stu forgets the 2015 General election David Cameron got his majority on 24% of England voters as the 75% never bothered voting thanks to ed millaband surrendering the campaign after claiming hed rather lose than work with the snp so if an election goes exactly 2015 boris can get a majority on 23% in fptp.

    230. Bill Hume says:

      Cutting a deal with any of the Unionist parties would be like playing poker against an opponent with a marked deck, a few spare aces up their sleeve and a revolver under the table, pointed at your groin.

      Perfidious Albion is not to be trusted…….ever.

    231. Johnny says:

      Sean McNulty @ 08:41am:

      I believe that you are right that there are certain elements of the press and politicians within Scottish unionist parties who would try to scream “this is just what you wanted all along!” in the event of any such deal. It’s a certainty.

      However I also believe that, if the UK is teetering at the point of No Deal, such voices will be drowned out in the clamour of Scots screaming that that outcome is avoided for Scotland. They’ll not want to listen to anyone plaintively demanding they put up with whatever shit just because the SNP are behind the escape route and have always wanted independence.

      Several times on the thread people have also stated that “people won’t like it because it involves a deal with the Tories, and only fervent Yessers will put up with it to get Yes”.

      I think this is the wrong way to look at it, for a few reasons.

      One is that they might be happy to “put up with it” in order to avoid No Deal. The thinking here wouldn’t be “I’m accepting this because I am pro-yes” but “I’m accepting it because I am so against No Deal or even any kind of Brexit!”. It’s a different mindset.

      Also, it seems a bit “off” to imagine that people who voted No and then Remain (presumably the largest target group of the pro-EU strategy of the SNP) would be more put off voting Yes because of “a deal with the Tories” than fervent Yessers.

      These No/Remainers were happy enough to risk ongoing Westminster Tory governments, but would suddenly be squeamish now? While some probably voted No thinking they were going to get Ed Miliband in 2015, this cannot possibly account for them all.

      Lastly, the idea abroad that “it would be suicide for the SNP to do a deal with the Tories as it would enrage loads of Yessers etc” again seems a bit misguided. While I accept some people will *still* think it’s their duty to save England and Wales from Brexit, a good many more will see that if the deal worked out and independence was won, they would no longer have to deal with Westminster Tories (at least on a domestic policy basis). What’s suicidal about delivering THAT outcome?

      And I say all this as someone who instinctively does worry about such a deal, but more about trusting the other side not to renege than anything else surrounding it. But that would ALWAYS be a worry in any dealing with Westminster, no?

    232. Golfnut says:

      @ RepublicofScotland.

      Of course Westminster refused the petition, there were barely 11,000 signatures on it. A stupid request and a stupid move.

    233. Cubby says:

      Tory MP from Wales standing down at next election as he cannot stomach the way the Tory party is going. He says that the promotion of a no deal by Tories would result in a quarter of his farming constituents going bust. He still, however, was vague as to whether he would vote against his own government in a vote of no confidence.

      Amazingly (for a Tory), he then says we argued against Scottish independence in 2014 saying independence would be economically harmful but here we are now doing exactly that with a no deal Exit from the EU to obtain UK independence from the EU.

      The Britnats heads are exploding all over the UK.

    234. frogesque says:

      @galamcennalath :8.56

      Aye, wait indeed. Every effort will be made to keep the major centres of population fed and compliant ( read London and the SE)

      There is a long supply chain before perishable foods reach Scotland from Dover etc. Glasgow, Edinburgh and Inverness will literally be well down the food chain come a no deal.

      Folk need to get off their arses, we need Indy NOW!

    235. Cubby says:

      Bill Hume@9.51am

      Nicely put.

      None of the posters advocating doing such a hypothetical deal never explain how they would ensure Westminster didn’t just renege on the deal. They reneged on the infamous vow and that was only for some additional devolved powers.

    236. Welsh Sion says:

      Cubby @ 9.58 am

      The ‘Tory MP from Wales’ is actually Guto Bebb, the grandson of one of the founders of Plaid Cymru (William Ambrose Bebb) and is a defector from the National Party.

      Those of you wanting to know more should translate the following.

      https://golwg360.cymru/newyddion/cymru/549776-guto-bebb-ddim-sefyll-ceidwadwyr-aberconwy

      He has also been a victim of racist internet trolls (‘Leavers’) who, because of his Remain credentials, have, amongst other things have referred to his name as what a Glaswegian father would say to his child who was still playing with their toys late at night.

      _________________

      Further on Welsh indy, look out for Gwynedd Council’s vote, tomorrow, Thursday 18 July 2019.

      https://nation.cymru/news/gwynedd-council-to-vote-on-support-for-welsh-independence/

      _________________

      And indy supporters are invited to Caernarfon for the 2nd AUOB Cymru rally on 27 July 2019.

      https://www.yes.cymru/auob

    237. Republicofscotland says:

      Golfnut says:
      17 July, 2019 at 9:55 am
      @ RepublicofScotland.

      Of course Westminster refused the petition, there were barely 11,000 signatures on it. A stupid request and a stupid move.

      Golfnut.

      A predicatable answer though from Westminster, no harm in testing the water before jumping in I say.

      Lets hope its not the only request for the order.

    238. Breeks says:


      RM says:
      17 July, 2019 at 8:11 am
      You sometimes wonder do the SNP really want independence.

      Ghillie says:
      17 July, 2019 at 8:17 am
      Yes, the SNP really really really want Independence ?

      It’s the apparent ambivalence about Europe which I can’t figure out.

      Even if you’re pro-Indy and merely Euro-neutral, surely you must recognise that a Brexit catastrophe forced upon Scotland against it’s sovereign will is an unconstitutional Union breaker. It is nothing short of colonial subjugation by one nation upon another, and thereby unlawful under international law. These aren’t just words, these are facts. Brexit represents a fantastic opportunity, by far the very best opportunity throughout over 314 years, to bring down the dysfunctional union of the UK.

      For more than 3 centuries through war, rebellion, subjugation, anglicisation, hollowing exploitation, ethnic cleansing, cultural impoverishment and abject humiliation, we have lacked the means to bring down the Union, yet in 2016 a chunk of “Brexit” Kryptonite fell from the heavens into our laps. It will be a long time before the UK government ever does anything so casual and lackadaisical again.

      Even if you reject Europe, even if you see some merit in Brexit, (I would advise you to seek help), is it so very difficult to contemplate forgoing Brexit if it will function as the missing catalyst which finally breaks the curse and enables our Independence?

      To navigate a tortuous path through the Brexit process, studiously avoiding all Constitutional ramifications until Scotland is ultimately Brexited, seems to me both an unfathomable and indefensible strategy, ironically defended by those with no depth to their arguments beyond rancour and persistent enigma.

      It seems alarmingly inconceivable that Brexit might yet wash over Scotland without a single blow being struck against our oppressors, and yet what other conclusion can be drawn from conjecture about the possibility of “maybe” having a referendum in 2020 or beyond? Sorry. I just don’t recognise that script. I don’t even want to read it. Take it away.

      The SNPbad choir will accuse dissenters of being too rash in wanting a referendum arranged in haste and perhaps lost. Let me be explicit… in my opinion the time to save ourselves from Brexit by a second referendum has long since passed. Peoples vote EuroRef2? Err, where are we even going with that??? But that’s ok, it’s not going to happen, and we can still save ourselves from Brexit by the first referendum. Remember? Back in 2016? When the sovereign people of Scotland decided to stay in Europe? That was Scotland’s “gold standard” result. I accept, it maybe wasn’t a “constitutional” Referendum by design, but it certainly was a constitutional result and we should drive it’s ramifications home to the hilt.

      Paradoxically to some on here, I do not call for Nicola Sturgeon to be removed. I’m not even in the SNP. It’s none of my business who they want to follow as leader. My grievance is with the Scottish Government as a whole, and it’s apparent complicity, whether by accident or design, in allowing Brexit to flourish to these epic proportions when it might have been nipped in the bud back in 2016.

      Just think…- “The Sovereign people of Scotland said no to Brexit. As their elected government, our hands are tied because Scotland is a sovereign, constitutional democracy.” = Scottish Backstop 2016, with Europe manfully defending our sovereignty they way they are currently defending the integrity of the Irish Peace Treaty.

      It’s still not too late. Defend Scotland’s sovereign constitutional integrity over Brexit, and England’s rabid desire to spurn Europe will render the Union of the United Kingdom untenable and unsustainable, and our Independence and Sovereignty, in all good conscience, is assured.

      Why is that so complicated for some people to understand? What is their agenda?

      Ultimately we want the same things. Some of us want Independence on the back of a pristine gold standard Independence Referendum. (Yeah, how’s that working out for you?) Some of us will make do with indirect Independence on the back of the Brexit Referendum which created an irreconcilable Constitutional paradox which the UK Union cannot successful navigate intact provided we stand firm on the essential Constitutional principle of our Sovereignty.

      We are not each other’s enemy, but let me make one vitally important distinction… a Constitutionalist’s argument does not undermine the principle of democracy but enshrines it, but a Democrat who is content to leave the principle of sovereignty undefended is engineering his own irrecoverable defeat and perpetual irrelevance.

    239. ScotsRenewables says:

      Good article by McKenna . . . . it is getting harder every day to keep the faith.

      I’ve writtent to my SNP MP asking for reassurance, why don’t we all do that, contact our MPs and MSPs and give them concrete evidence in their inboxes that concern is mounting?

    240. Cubby says:

      Official UK gov response to the Section 30 petition:

      NOW IS NOT THE TIME.

      They do not of course say when is the time.

      They repeat the lie about a promise of once in a generation.

      They repeat the lie about the election being fair.

      The UK gov is like a prison governor saying you have had your parole hearing and we will tell you when you can next make your case for freedom. Our prison our rules.

      The UK gov – once a colonial gov always a colonial gov.

    241. Sean McNulty says:

      @ Johnny

      I’d agree with every word you’ve posted. A real eye-opener was Stu’s post showing that a third of Yes voters since 2014 have since switched to No because they support Brexit. I had no idea the figure was that high.

      Like you I’m not exactly *comfortable* about any deal with the Tories and like others would suspect they’d renege on anything they can. So why not insist they fulfill their end of the deal first? If they think it’ll get them their Brexit, those Tories might be in quite a hurry to give Scotgov all the constitutional powers it wants.

      The point is moot, though. No way would a gradualist like NS go for something as dramatic as a Tory deal, especially when you see the response of most hardcore Yessers on this thread.

      Which isn’t to say demanding devolved constitutional, broadcasting etc powers from Labour/Lib Dems isn’t still an option. Once that transfer happens, we simply call indyref whenever suits us best, and this time round without the BBC doing their Pravda/Fox News act.

    242. Robert Louis says:

      I totally understand, the FM saying she wants to have a referendum before the end of 202. I understand her sticking to this line, when questioned. Sticking to what you said you would do, is a good thing for politicians, so the FM is right to do so- up to a point.

      You see, the problem with major changes happening in a country, is that despite the best laid plans, events themselves may overtake what you want to do, and HOW you want to do it. Your long held plans, become meaningless.

      This is what is happening now. Events within the UK are extremely volatile right now, and in such a scenario, we need an FM, who is fleet of foot, able to adapt and modify plans as needed. Many hope NS is the person to do so.

      Whilst announcing long term plans and sticking to them is admirable, they become of little relevance if actual events have overtaken those plans. Indeed, because of a lack of flexibility, those fixed, rigid plans, can become a noose strangling your own objectives.

      The SNP really need to get to grips with that. The way out of brexit, is independence. We have had three years of the ScotGov objecting to brexit and being ignored, and Scottish folk being abused. Indeed, in that same timeframe, rather than merely ignore the Scotgov, the Tories and their pathetic ‘pseudo-scot’ enablers up here, have made great plans, to wholly and completely undermine the entire Scottish Government.

      It is all well and good, to say ‘never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake’, but that must have a finite time course. What should we do? sit back, while our parliament is closed, and replaced by the London-serving Tory creeps in ‘betty saxe-coburg hoose’? whilst we continually mutter, ‘well, ‘never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake’.

      How many of our enemies ‘mistakes’ do we sit back and watch? closure of the Scots Parliament? emasculation of the Scottish Government? Brexit? Make no mistake, all three are coming. Mundell’s new 3000 London-serving staff are not for nothing. His shiny new building in central Edinburgh is not for nothing. It is indeed, as f***ing obvious as can be, just exactly what is about to happen.

      The time for talking and complaining is over. Am I the only person who can see how f***ing urgent this is??

      The Scotgov should be cancelling ALL other business, to focus on avoiding brexit in Scotland, but NOT in England (the English voted for it, so we have no business in trying to stop it down there – indeed, it is the equivalent of English MP’s trying to stop Scottish independence) and taking our independence back.

    243. Dr Jim says:

      On Sky news right now are the discussions all about who will be in the new cabinet in Boris Johnson’s government and the Journalist Beth Rigby is pretty much able to tell us exactly who will be getting the jobs and why because of positions taken or favours done in the past or at this moment to assist Boris Johnson

      And all of this manipulation of power and who’s going to do it is done smilingly and openly without mentioning the word corruption once

      If any commercial business were to be caught employing its directors and rigging its board in this way they’d be in court on charges

    244. Joe says:

      Ok, so you can all keep your nickers from getting bunched up.

      Just learned that Von Der Leyen has said that she is happy for another extension on Brexit.

      (Thank god for that kindness. Its got nothing to with economics, eh?)

      EU immigration visa’s and ‘Surinder Singh’ permits require only proof that applicants made their home in an EU country for 6 months before applying to the UK. No income requirement. No savings requirement. No need for any kind of insurance. They can also extend this to family members, partners etc. I know this as a fact from very recent personal experience with immigration authorities.

      The agencies who deal with these are now very busy.

      Britain is being filled with people who do not have Brexit in their best interests.

      If the next Tory leader does not allow the UK to leave on the set date the chances of full Brexit draws more remote.

      As ive said before – the EU cannot afford at this time to lose full access to UK markets, nor can they allow the UK to leave with any kind of favourable trade deal (that would not hurt EU companies also).

      Delay. Propagadise. Keep introducing people who will oppose Brexit. Rinse and repeat.

      There you go you simpleton, economically illiterate europhiles. Dont worry. Be happy. Your globalist would-be masters are setting things in order 🙂

    245. geeo says:

      ‘Broken record’ Breeks on loop yet again. Zzzzzz

      How do you know that Scotsgov have not made such an inquiry/request to the EU and been told “we cannot engage with you while the uk (the EU MEMBER entity) is still in the EU”?

      How do you know that the EU have not told Nicola Sturgeon that as soon as WM actually takes us out, the EU will make a very public statement welcoming Scotland to REMAIN IN the EU to respect the 2016 62% Remain vote ?

      How do you know that the EU have not told Nicola Sturgeon, that the EU will immediately recognise Scotland as an independent country via an indyref with or without a Section 30 ?

      Perhaps Nicola Sturgeon ASKED the EU to play it this way as part of the ‘cards close to our chest’ strategy to keep WM guessing on our next moves ?

      Have you ever considered that possibility ?

      Of course not, because you think you know better than everyone else.

      Now I am not saying the above is happening, or going to happen, I am just saying, could it be possible ?

      If it IS happening, we already have WM whipped.

    246. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks

      Excellent post.

      @ RepublicofScotland.

      If we are going use petitions, and I really do think we should, they need to be more than a personal publicity stunt and not subjects that the public are sick to death of reading about in newspapers and hearing from propaganda broadcasters.

      They need to be used to educate and fire up the imagination, they need to attack the very foundation’s of the establishment and they need side line westminster. In our circumstances they need to be used to empower our Parliament, not Scot Gov.

    247. Robert Louis says:

      Cubby at 1032am,

      Aye, the London Government responding in parrot-like fashion. To paraphrase, ‘shut the f*** up Scotland’.

      What is quite odd, when you stand back and look at events, is the way in which Westminster wants to, as they put it, ‘strengthen the union’.

      You see, their are no advantages of the union to Scotland, so rather than make it work better, or even listen to Scotland’s viewpoint, instead they want to impose their own viewpoint by force, whether we like it or not. How we vote in Scotland, is to London, an irrelevancy. True colonialism.

      Rather than improve the union, by, say, making it democratic, London wants to just bash the Scots by brute force. It is like they are still in the middle ages. I wouldn’t be surprised, if Boris the clown, and his ‘pseudo-scots’ tory apparatchiks in Edinburgh, see him as some kind of modern longshanks, a ‘hammer of the Scots’.

    248. Jock McDonnell says:

      Why is GCC flying that abomination above the city chambers. FFS, come on, gloves off, are we not the masters in the city now ? Too much nicey-nicey-hug-a-yoon for me.

    249. Robert Louis says:

      Dr Jim at 1052am,

      I totally agree. It is like Westminster has thrown the rule book our the window.

      What I find more shocking, however, is the calm cheery way, so-called ‘journalists’ on TV tell us that Boris the clown might close Westminster in order to bypass parliament, in order to get his way. Do any of them even realise just what they are describing? They dress it up in a fancy word ‘prorogue’, but it is closure of the democratically elected parliament. It is wholly undemocratic, and akin to dictatorship.

      When such things happen in other countries, the so-called ‘journalists’ shriek in horror, about how undemocratic and awful it is, yet when it happens here, well that’s ok, because it’s ‘just proroguing’.

    250. Scozzie says:

      Ian Foulds @ 8.07am

      Here’s the European Commission summary doc that explains the Withdrawal Agreement. It was drafted in February 2019 so assumes the original March deadline.

      https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/the_withdrawal_agreement_explained.pdf

    251. Dr Jim says:

      Unionist reaction flooding in over the EU Parliament’s selection of Ms Vonderleyen to her new position following the voting on that position

      In statements Unionists replied

      Your mob won’t like her she’s a Proddy

      A clear and concise reply to the obviously undemocratic way in which she was elected, as opposed of course to the *British* Tory way which is no voting at all and just select your pals to jobs like Defence Minister or Health Minister or even Secretary of State for Scotland, a position of course that not one person in Scotland gets any vote on

    252. geeo says:

      @ScotsRenewables 10.27am

      Speak for yourself.

      I have complete faith in the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon’s resolve to deliver the means for us to take our independence AGAIN (They delivered once already, remember).

      I see no evidence to suggest they are not on top of their brief.

      Just because they are not doing it a certain way (how do folk even know that when it is a closed poker hand being played out?) DOES NOT mean they are doing it wrong or making mistakes.

      Looks simple enough to me.

      They will request a S.30 agreement, stating a referendum date (i seem to recall them having to name the date on an OFFICIAL request).

      If WM agrees to a S.30 agreement, which, despite the rhetoric, seems like the legally correct way forward (precedent, and written into the Smith Commission) then an awful lot of people on here are going to look fairly stupid.

      If WM says “No”, “not now”, or “not ever”, then we will find out Plan B, won’t we ?

      Note: the above is my opinion of what will happen.

    253. Jock McDonnell says:

      A deal with the tories is toxic in Scotland, although if we win a referendum it won’t matter much.
      If we lose a referendum, God forbid, what can we recover from more easily ? I guess its from either a hard Brexit where we can say we tried to prevent it or its by stopping Brexit and having England raging.
      My preference is to make no deals with Westminster parties unless it’s for immediate, direct recognition of our sovereignty.
      Not sure we need a referendum though. What we really need is foreign recognition, once that happens, it game over for ukok.

    254. Dr Jim says:

      Yes indeed Ms Vonderleyen has said said she will offer a further extension to the Brexit debacle

      *If there is a change in material circumstances such as the UK giving a good reason*

      I’m not even sorry, I just could not resist that, it’s virtually what she said, I laughed when I heard it and I’m still laughing now

      It’s like she’s got Scotland’s FM on speed dial

    255. geeo says:

      Oh dear, joe- the racist -joker, thinks that EU/uk trade will be ‘cut off’ post uexit !!

      Emm….no Joe, it will continue, but Tory mismanagement will mean tarrifs on goods to and fro.

      As for your racist rant about immigration, well, that will be reported to the blog owner to deal with as he sees fit.

    256. Terry callachan says:

      Here we have common space a supposedly pro Indy site carrying the same false news story as the britnat media
      Common space blame Holyrood for conforming to British norms but of course drug abuse policy unlike alcohol abuse policy is largely controlled by Westminster

      https://www.commonspace.scot/sites/all/modules/civicrm/extern/url.php?u=5087&qid=1926866

      Here we have the truth about drugs in Scotland and how the way the figures are calculated in Scotland is different to the way the figures are calculated in England
      In Scotland suicides are often included in drug death figures making them very much higher but in England they are not

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/05/06/why-drug-related-deaths-in-scotland-are-not-two-and-a-half-times-higher-than-rest-of-uk/

      Drug addiction and alcohol addiction and food and gambling addiction too are a real problem everywhere in society in all countries .
      In UK so called freedom to trade and freedom of choice often means these issues are not tackled head on .

      The minimum pricing of alcohol legislation introduced by the Scottish government has had a very good impact and over time will reduce the numbers of people in Scotland dying from alcohol addiction but the britnat political party’s and the business community fought it long and hard because to them profit is more important than people.

      The reason this story about drug abuse is in all the newspapers today is because yesterday the Scottish government said it is going to introduce a pilot scheme to allow drug addicts to take their drugs in official safe places , it’s been done successfully in some other countries so Scotland is going to give it a go to see if it helps avoid people dying , of course there needs to be greater action to tackle the programme for reducing prescribed doses of drugs to people but it all costs money which is hard to find in an ever shrinking budget Scotland is given by Westminster.
      All those oil rigs pumping out huge amounts of oil and gas the money flowing freely to Westminster and they give us a back ever decreasing amounts , scandalous, meantime our young people become disenfranchised disaffected and desperate because austerity and high rents hits hard and decent paying jobs are hard to come bye.

      And yes it is very strange indeed how often we see government figures being calculated differently in England to the way it is calculated in Scotland and never ever do the BBC or the newspapers mention that these differing ways of calculating things exists.

      We have to rely on media sites like thoughtcontrolscotland and wingsoverscotland for correct information

    257. ScotsRenewables says:

      geeo says:
      17 July, 2019 at 11:13 am
      @ScotsRenewables 10.27am

      Speak for yourself.

      I have complete faith in the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon’s resolve to deliver the means for us to take our independence

      Good. I sincerely hope you are correct.

    258. geeo says:

      @Jock McDonnell 11.17am

      “My preference is to make no deals with Westminster parties unless it’s for immediate, direct recognition of our sovereignty”
      ………

      Totally agree about no deals with the tories.

      However, we ALREADY HAVE totally accepted recognition by WM of our Sovereignty.

      https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-07-04/debates/18070455000001/ClaimOfRightForScotland

      Ian Blackford, From the link:

      “The claim of right acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs, and the obligation of elected representatives, in all their actions and deliberations, to ensure that the interests of the people of Scotland are paramount.

      The claim of right is not simply an historical document but a fundamental principle that underpins the democracy and constitutional framework of Scotland. 
      ……………

      This affirmation was passed without the need for a division (vote) as the motion was completely uncontested.

      Re-Affirming the Scottish Claim of Right therefore passed without challenge and became the will of parliament.

      An academic position, more tactical by the SNP, to have a modern affirmation in Hansard, since the Scottish Claim of Right and Sovereignty are protected by the Treaty of Union anyway.

      Nice to have a modern reminder at hand tho.

    259. Ghillie says:

      Ach. What alot of mithering.

      Independence is coming.

      And soon 🙂

    260. Dr Jim says:

      Here are some comments from an episode of Gogglebox from the time of the 2014 referendum that I watched last night

      *What do they want Independence for we gave them a Parliament*

      *All they’ve got is bagpipes* (bad grammar there’s)

      *Salmond’s a pillock*

      *Salmond just wants to be a big fish in a small pond*

      *If Scotland leaves they can take Andy Murray with them*

      *But they only stand in Scotland and England won’t vote for Scottish Independence*

      There were many more well informed comments like this from what the TV described as ordinary people right around the UK, by which they actually mean England

      I could probably walk down any street in Scotland and get better answers from 12 year olds, so in any decisions regarding Scotland anyone might have to make or think about I would plead with those people NOT to give the population of England one Iota of consideration out of any misplaced concern for their welfare

      Because those poor souls don’t have the first clue about virtually anything, and remember, Joey Essex thought Wales was somewhere in Russia and another woman from Gogglebox was perfectly positive New Zealand was in Australia and that Ibiza was British

      You’d laugh if it wasn’t so worryingly consistantly stupid

    261. Davosa says:

      Stu,

      3rd option would be fun to watch (1st para)-if only !

    262. Abulhaq says:

      It is perfectly clear to all nationalists that England is run by shysters and dodgy dealers.
      Ant-British propaganda is being offered to us on plate.
      We must now feed!

    263. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      those poor souls don’t have the first clue about virtually anything

      Every poll or survey throws up an inescapable truth, that there is a small percentage of people who haven’t got a clue.

      I remember one political poll which included gems like ‘Corbyn is right wing’ from a small single figure percentage.

      It is true that some folks may just have absolutely no interest in the subject matter of the poll. For instance, if you asked me about football you’d conclude I was thick as mince.

      But there are some weird ones, like many people apparently don’t know that thunder is the noise of lightning. Presumably because the two are observed at different times.

      It can have a serious side though. I remember being astonished that just over half of Scots in 2014 thought the NHS was a UK wide institution. With that mindset, some would vote to keep the NHS they valued with a NO.

      And few people (especially Labour Scottish politicians) seem to understand in detail what is reserved and devolved.

      So much ‘not having a clue’ is about education and/or not bothering to find out.

      Having said that, there really are some dense folk out there and many of them do turn out to vote!

    264. Liz g says:

      geeo @ 10.56
      I must admit that I’ve thought that somewhat along those lines could have been going on since 2016?
      Nicola indicating to the EU that she would do her best to stop or mitigate brexit.
      Which is a legitimate position because of the way this country voted.
      In return the EU would offer support to Scotland if Westminster gave up membership anyway!
      It certainly would explain a lot???
      Not so much a ” memorandum of understanding ” type arrangement,as I don’t think there’s anything written down.
      But rather just an understand that both Scotland and the EU both want the same thing….

    265. Liz g says:

      Me @ 12.10
      Something not Somewhat…. Duh….

    266. kapelmeister says:

      Labour has been in a perpetual deal with the tories for 100 years. It’s called the union.

    267. Arthur C says:

      O/T
      GOOD NEWS

      DISABLED SCOTTISH CLAIMANTS TO GET FREE ADVOCACY SUPPORT

      In yet another sign that claimants in Scotland are to be treated with a degree of dignity and respect that is almost entirely absent south of the border, disabled claimants are to receive free advocacy support when when applying for Social Security Scotland benefits.

      Social Security Secretary Shirley-Anne Somerville said:

      “Our social security service provides dignity, fairness and respect. Advocacy support for those applying for Scottish benefits is an integral part of delivering those principles.

      “To protect disabled applicants’ rights and ensure everyone is fully involved in the decisions that affect them, advocacy support will be provided where necessary.

      “I believe this is important additional help we can give that’s not currently available in the Department for Work and Pensions administered system.”

      It seems that, more and more, claimants will be looking to Scotland for examples of how the whole benefits system can be improved.

      SOURCE
      http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

    268. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “We will be having a referendum, YES that’s right it will be in 2020. The SNP either do that or they too are finished, I’ve absolutely no idea how this referendum will come about but I strongly believe that it will.

      This is not just blind faith”

      It’s the actual literal definition of blind faith.

    269. Fireproofjim says:

      I too believe the SNP have an independence plan front and foremost.
      However I am quite happy for them to keep quiet about the details of how they propose to implement the plan until close to the Brexit date.
      Remember how in 2012 the SNP produced a very detailed document on all the details of how they proposed to govern an independent Scotland.
      This was methodically taken apart and rubbished by the Unionists and it was a non-stop battle to rebut their lies..
      This time we need a simple, short statement making clear that the details of currency, immigration, land reform and so on are all questions which will be decided for Scotland’s benefit after independence. Meanwhile, making no announcement until Brexit details are clear is common sense and gives no hostages to Unionists.

    270. Paul Wilson says:

      If the SNP was to do as suggested in order to get a section 30 you can just hear the howls from Labour and the Libdums aided and abetted by rags like the Record and the Mirror”Tartan Tories” and we could end up back to the late 70’s all over again. A lot depends on the sophistication of the Scots electorate. Surely now were are more aware of what is what and wouldn’t fall for it but it is a risk all the same.

    271. Colin Alexander says:

      Labour voters for independence: YES

      Tory voters for independence: YES

      LibDem voters for independence: YES

      Green voters for independence: YES

      SNP voters for independence: YES

      I couldnae give a flying f… about party politics, voters for independence: YES

      I hate Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, but agree with independence: YES

      I want a govt that’s founded on the sovereignty of the people, not ruled over by unelected Lords: YES

      I want the people of Scotland to decide whether Scotland stays or leaves the EU: YES

      I want Scotland to have a Scottish Parliament that answers to the people of Scotland, not to the House of Lords or House of Commons: YES

      I want the people of Scotland to decide what’s best for the people of Scotland: YES

      I want Scotland to exercise its democratic rights as a sovereign nation, instead of being treated as a colony of the British Empire: YES

      I want the people of Scotland to take back control of their own country: YES

    272. Abulhaq says:

      If looking for antiBrit propaganda, it is enough to catch the public school arrogance and junior common room posturing in PMQ’s.
      Today’s offering, you’re more racist, phobic and anti-climate change than me. Ya boo sucks!
      Deck chair shifting on the Titanic.

    273. Abulhaq says:

      Blind faith = Putting your total trust in politicians.

    274. Johnny says:

      Paul Wilson @ 12:48pm:

      I have said upthread that I agree that the figures you will mention WILL try that.

      But it’s unlikely to be particularly successful when, teetering on the brink of a No Deal Brexit, many (the majority?) of Scots want only to hear how to avoid it.

      The other correct response to “they are Tartan Tories and just want to do Tory policies on you, they’re not really that left wing etc etc etc” is “you’re telling us to go down with the biggest Tory policy of all, credibility gone”.

      Also, whilst I don’t believe the SNP *would* be blamed by its own supporters or even the populace at large for taking the step needed to gain independence, the job would have been done. Up to all the parties to campaign thereafter and make a decent Scotland in the process.

      I’m not going to base my support for any route to a referendum on “but the SNP might be punished, even in the event of a Yes vote”. That would be ridiculously tribal. Question is what’s best for Scotland, not which party benefits electorally afterwards.

    275. Sinky says:

      Speaker at HoC perfectly illustrated Westminster’s priorities at PMQs .

      Given massive MSM coverage why was Alison Twewliss’ Question on Home Office Drugs policy not taken yet several questions on England’s cricket team were taken

    276. Dr Jim says:

      When you read Kevin McKenna you think *well that sounds reasonable* then he blows it by saying *I spoke to senior figures in the SNP and they told me* then doesn’t name them

      Well no they didn’t Kevin McKenna and everybody in the SNP knows they didn’t

    277. Golfnut says:

      @Liz g

      Totally agree Liz g, definitely a plan in place. Really can’t blame them for keeping quite about it, with probably a hostile( some at least) Civil service dogging there every step.
      We’ll find out soon enough.

      @ Abulhaq

      The UK is run by sociopaths and psychopaths. Shysters and double dealers are way down the pecking order.

    278. Dr Jim says:

      Brexit was won on a vote of 52% and Nigel Farage claimed it was the will of the people and a clear mandate along with some other political zing lines

      Ms Vonleyden won the EU election by 52% and Nigel Farage claimed it was an illigitimate election with no mandate along with some other political zing lines

    279. Jack Murphy says:

      I’ve just come into Wings at my Break-Time and with a quick read it’s good to see Stuart responding yesterday afternoon and evening to some of the Wings readers’ Posts.

      Thanks Stu.

      I would also like to repeat an important post from Capella, saying at 10:23 pm last night:

      ” Alison Thewliss again on drugs and the problem of it being a reserved issue. For those of you wondering what the SNP is doing to get the message across. We have to have drugs policy devolved now.
      Also independence. It’s not an either or, it’s both and.

      https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1151165065242058752 “.. [with video]

      PS. I bought my FIRST PAPER EDITION of The National on my Break half an hour ago. [smile emoji]

    280. bittie45 says:

      Even if there is a 99.99% chance that we are heading for a Brexit, it has NOT YET HAPPENED.

      My thoughts are that one erroneous pre-emptive move and it will be game over. It will be in the milliseconds after a Brexit happens that the decisive action will be taken to get a good outcome.

      Meanwhile if that strategy is to be collaborated with, the benefits of the EU to Scotland, and what we all stand to loose once out, should be posted here; pro Brexit arguments listened to; if valid, they should be acknowledged; and if invalid, should be vigorously argued against.

      Just because there is calm before the storm does not mean sitting worrying. It means there is an opportunity to work hard and strengthen the shelter!

    281. Mark Fletcher says:

      I am intrigued by people – whether or not they profess support for independence – who state that they HATE Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

      I am intrigued in the same way that psychiatrists are intrigued by psychopaths.

    282. James F. McIntosh says:

      I suggest everyone have a look at gordon ross indycar blog today, very very worrying if his sources are correct.

    283. robbo says:

      Way too many folk getting their nickers in a twist. There will be another brexit extension and another too.

      We will grind them doon.

      Just keep voting SNP till independence day,then you can vote for who you like.

    284. A C Bruce says:

      James F McIntosh @ 2.06 pm

      Re Indycar Gordon Ross video.

      I think he might be referring to the Act noted below. It can still be found online. I haven’t, yet, managed to find anything to say it’s been repealed or altered but I’m no lawyer. I’ll keep checking.

      The Food (Scotland) Act 2015 established FSS on 1 April 2015 as the public sector food body for Scotland. The Act was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 9 December 2014, and received Royal Assent on 13 January 2015.

    285. Brian says:

      Although any life lost to drugs is highly regrettable, I find it interesting that the MSM are making such a furore over the number of deaths in Scotland last year when the highest percentage year on year increase was in 2015 when there was a 20% increase on the 2014 figures.
      Wouldn’t be that the Indyref had just been lost so there was no mileage in it for the MSM would it?

    286. Republicofscotland says:

      “They need to be used to educate and fire up the imagination, they need to attack the very foundation’s”

      Golfnut.

      I absolutely agree, but am I the only one who thinks the SNP government aren’t being proactive enough, knowing full we’ll the consequences of a no deal Brexit.

    287. Juteman says:

      Unfortunately, until Brexit actually happens, the SNP can only wait. England can’t afford to lose control of Scotlands’ assets as well as the damage from Brexit.
      If we call a referendum now, another EU vote will be held so that Remain wins. The Tories will call a GE to enable a LAB/LIB government to take the blame for the re-vote.
      Brexit might never happen, and I doubt it will if we call the Indy ref too soon.

    288. uno mas says:

      Westminster better get a move on with submitting it´s aplication to be the 51st State.

      There´s a que for that dont you know ! ?

      http://www.rt.com/op-ed/464337-puerto-rico-aoc-independence/

    289. galamcennalath says:

      Juteman says:

      If we call a referendum now, another EU vote will be held so that Remain wins. The Tories will call a GE to enable a LAB/LIB government to take the blame for the re-vote.

      I suspect you might be right. All the indications so far is that they will prioritise saving the Union over achieving Brexit.

      The Irish Backstop, IMO, was introduced with that very purpose.

      Brexit was always going to be easy peezy…. all they had to do was give up their UK union. And that’s where it’s come unstuck, they won’t.

      Johnson will certainly be a new brush and define loose cannon. His priorities might be different. Then, they might not. There are many English Nationalists who wouldnput Brexit befor Union.

    290. Lenny Hartley says:

      galamcennalath @ 1220, i remember ch4 news asking Westminster MP’s all representing English Seats in the aftermath of the 2008;financial crash, of about six interviewed not one knew the difference between the Deficit and Debt .

    291. Clydebuilt says:

      Robert Louis @10.42

      “how many of our enemie’s ‘mistakes’ do we sit back and watch?”

      I reckon we sit back and wait till the Brexit Disaster has shifted a bucket load of votes our way.

    292. Clydebuilt says:

      Should’ve been 10.46 not 10.42

    293. starlaw says:

      Re Gordon Ross IndyCar today.
      EU rules still apply to the UK on foodstuffs. It is now vital that Scotland remains in the EU. Take this as an opportunity to convert even more people to the yes camp. In a normal country this would fill the front pages off all the Newspapers. Tomorrows peek at the news stands will be interesting.

    294. Golfnut says:

      @ RepublicofScotland.
      ‘Am I the only one ‘

      Definitely not, I don’t believe there is anyone on this page pro SNP or not who isn’t feeling the strain. It’s been a long road and we’re not there yet.

      I’m not one of those that think saving the union is the priority for the Tory’s, they are noted for there ability to lie straight faced while concealing their true intentions. Off shore assets from both home and abroad were a major factor in triggering Brexit, nor do I believe Cameron was as stupid as he pretended, the lack of preparation for a leave result was more likely planned that plain incompetence. The abundance of dark money, dodgy shadow organisations given free reign to operate points to a complicit gov. No proof of course.
      The termination of the UK state gets Westminster out of the ‘ good Friday Agreement ‘

    295. Bill McLean says:

      Hold tight until you can see the white of their eyes. Still nothing on Robert P?

    296. North chiel says:

      Good post “ Geo @1056 a.m.” Who knows what our FM might say or do AFTER Brexit . Could she declare the Union treaty breached due to the sovereign wishes of the Scottish people being ignored? Thereafter , would she declare ratification of this via a named referendum( date announced with or without section 30?) . As you say Geo nobody knows how our FM will proceed IF ANY BREXIT happens on Oct 31st . Far less as to what she might do if BOJO shuts down Westminster. Might she call a Holyrood vote to “ withdraw from the 1707 treaty? She has been correct not to “ jump the gun” to date and playing her cards carefully is the correct strategy. Keep them guessing . Play Westminster at their own game. As you say “ nobody knows “ and at this moment that’s how it should be for “ a little while longer” ( or 31/10 according to Bojo ). We’ll see ? Stay cool !!

    297. Robert Louis says:

      Excellent piece from Kevin McKenna, on the apparent inaction from the scotgov on independence. In The National today;

      http://archive.is/4keHo

      We need more folk in high places to start speaking up, since it is clear that the Scotgov plan to do nothing about it, we think, until ‘sometime late next year’ – or so we are told. But that, as is blindingly obvious to anybody, will be much, much too late.

    298. Ealasaid says:

      Link to today’s Indycar Ross with breaking news!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN8pXtZlwzE

    299. Dr Jim says:

      The FM has said her *preferred* option is the referendum

      Crafty word that

      Remember when the UK said they wouldn’t *reasonably* interfere and then they decided they reasonably would

      I think the word *preferred* is a bit like that

    300. JMD says:

      Sean McNulty says:
      17 July, 2019 at 10:42 am
      @ Johnny

      “I’d agree with every word you’ve posted. A real eye-opener was Stu’s post showing that a third of Yes voters since 2014 have since switched to No because they support Brexit. I had no idea the figure was that high.”

      A third of Yes voters have switched to No since 2014 because they support brexit?

      Whit?

    301. A C Bruce says:

      Just an update re Indycar.

      Gordon has removed today’s video and said it was a mistake based on an “erroneous interpretation”.

    302. ALANM says:

      We currently look like a movement without any leadership.

      Perhaps some “friendly advice” has been received at SNP HQ not to rock the UK boat right now in order to avoid the possibility of the lads popping round unexpectedly to inflict further reputational damage and/or additional criminal charges?

    303. CageyBee says:

      Indycar video been deleted see facebook link to this
      “CORRECTION:
      SCOTS LAWS ARE SAFE. THE INDY CAR VIDEO TODAY WAS BASED ON AN ERRONEOUS LEGAL INTERPRETATION.
      VIDEO HAS BEEN DELETED.”

      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/

    304. CageyBee says:

      I should refresh before posting to avoid missing posts after I had previously resfreshed and I would make less of A Boris of myself

    305. Calum McKay says:

      ALANM @ 5:47

      I take you mean you = SIU or the tories?

      SNP leadership is the only political leadership functioning in the uk and delivering services go the people!

    306. Cactus says:

      Aye the last suggestion is an interesting idea:
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/from-the-mouths-of-eggs/

      As has been discussed above, IF this idea were to be put to Westminster, the Scottish Government would state our terms for negotiation, then left the order with the Conservative politicians (BJ) for their consideration and expected reply – Step 1

      Step 2:
      See IF they actually respond or decline in the FIRST place

      – No acknowledgement / no reply
      – Reply received and Yes (with grumpy mumblings)
      – Reply received and not interested

      Step 3:
      ScotGov acknowledge any response given by the tories and state we will consider your response in due course, cause now is no the time, we’ll be in touch before Halloween… trick or treat

      Ye cannae call their bluff until ye introduce it intae the mix aye

      Call their bluff

    307. Lenny Hartley says:

      JMD dont know if its a third of yes voters who have switched to No but it was above 20% if I remember correctly with broadly the same figure coming to yes from no due to Brexit. That was just after the EU referendum since then more folk have been coming to yes.

    308. geeo says:

      North Chiel@4.24pm

      Interesting point re: if WM is prorogued.

      Perhaps when that happens, Nicola Sturgeon will stand before Holyrood and announce an emergency debate on dissolving the Union.

      “Since WM is not sitting, the motion is to dissolve the Treaty of Union, and in the absence of a government at WM, Holyrood shall take over control of the governance of Scotland.

      When the WM government is reinstated, the Scottish government shall immediately inform the WM Gov that Scotland has fucked off in their absence, have a nice life”.
      ……..

      Sorted.

    309. Ian Foulds says:

      Scozzie at 11.09am

      Many thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.

      Ian

    310. CameronB Brodie says:

      Well I’ve threatened folk with inflicting an insight into cultural critique through the application of value theory, so I suppose I should grasp the thistle. 😉

      A Theory of Cultural Value Orientations:
      Explication and Applications

      This article presents a theory of seven cultural value orientations that form three cultural value dimensions. This theory permits more ?nely tuned characterization of cultures than other theories. It is distinctive in deriving the cultural orientations from a priori theorizing. It also speci?es a coherent, integrated system of relations among the orientations, postulating that they are interdependent rather than orthogonal.

      Analyses of data from 73 countries, using two di?erent instruments, validate the 7 cultural orientations and the structure of interrelations among them. Conceptual and empirical comparisons of these orientations with Inglehart’s two dimensions clarify similarities and di?erences. Using the cultural orientations, I generate a worldwide empirical mapping of 76 national cultures that identi?es 7 transnational cultural groupings: West European, English-speaking, Latin American, East European, South Asian, Confucian in?uenced, and African and Middle Eastern.

      I brie?y discuss distinctive cultural characteristics of these groupings. I then examine examples of socioeconomic, political, and demographic factors that give rise to national di?erences on the cultural value dimensions, factors that are themselves reciprocally in?uenced by culture. Finally, I examine consequences of prevailing cultural value orientations for attitudes and behavior (e.g., conventional morality, opposition to immigration, political activism) and argue that culture mediates the e?ects of major social structural variables on them.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304824378_A_theory_of_cultural_value_orientations_Explication_and_applications

    311. hackalupmoff says:

      @ScotsRenewables from previous thread 16 July, 2019 at 1:25 pm
      ” If Nana or the consititional debate need a website then happy to provide the server, tech and design skills. Just so long as it gets used. ”

      Thanks for the offer of assistance. However, we have already setup a domain and host server thingy. We are going the WordPress route. If you want to discuss, please DM me on Twitter.

    312. hackalumpoff says:

      @ScotsRenewables from previous thread 16 July, 2019 at 1:25 pm
      ” If Nana or the consititional debate need a website then happy to provide the server, tech and design skills. Just so long as it gets used. ”

      Thanks for the offer of assistance. However, we have already setup a domain and host server thingy. We are going the WordPress route. If you want to discuss, please DM me on Twitter.

    313. CameronB Brodie says:

      And a bit more. Full text.

      Introduction: “Value as theory”
      Comparison, cultural critique, and guerilla ethnographic theory

      https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.14318/hau3.1.002

    314. galamcennalath says:

      geeo says:

      stand before Holyrood and announce an emergency debate on dissolving the Union

      And all Scotland’s MPs meet together to discuss the same proposal. BritNats might not turn up!

      All Scotland’s duly elected legislators sitting as two ‘houses’. All democratic bases covered.

      I would so much love for that to happen, but alas it seems unlikely.

      However, to take this a stage further, EU members simultaneously give an undertaking to recognise Scotland as independent and since it is already a full member it can simply take the UK place as BrEngexit takes place.

      Stuff of dreams, eh?

    315. Terry callachan says:

      Worth a read

      Blows the britnat media reports about drug addiction in Scotland out of the water
      Another case of Westminster keeping Scottish people down

      https://munguin.wordpress.com/

    316. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Louis at 4.43

      Completely untrue. A huge amount of work is going on but why interupt your enemy when it is making an arse of itself?

    317. galamcennalath says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      A huge amount of work is going on

      Do you KNOW a great deal of work is being done?

      Or like me, do you hope, believe, expect, pray, trust, suppose, assume, and imagine a great deal of work is being done? 🙂

      Please, please, let it be true!

      I understand the need for complete secrecy of plans, but it is frustrating.

    318. CameronB Brodie says:

      And when you apply that insight to the full-Brexit, you begin to appreciate just how vunerable Scotland’s nationals are to the excesses of populist English nationalism.

      Cultural backlash: the generational gap over Brexit is driven by authoritarian and populist values

      Pippa Norris explains how generation gaps divide the electorate and mainstream parties. She writes that, while the EU referendum is a prime example of how these divisions play out in the UK, the changing nature of electoral cleavages raises important questions about politics and party competition in Western democracies more generally.

      The Brexit decision shocked Britain’s image of itself, and sent reverberations around the world. Until recently, Westminster shared a broad consensus about the value of the liberal international order abroad and liberal democratic governance at home. The accord reflected a cosmopolitan vision, convinced of the benefits of access to global markets, open border, and international cooperation. In Europe, the ‘permissive consensus’ allowed Brussels technocrats to pursue a common vision of deepening and enlarging the EU, without giving a direct voice to the European public on the matter – even though polls suggest that this goal was increasingly rejected by many of its citizens….

      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/04/cultural-backlash-the-generational-gap-over-brexit-is-driven-by-authoritarian-and-populist-values/

    319. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      What has happened to the relentless assault on the the SNP and the Scottish Government on drug deaths we got thos morning on BBC, STV and all the press. Not a cheep on BBC tonght.

      Has it rebounded? Were the facts significantly distorted? Everybody I have talked to today were disgusted by it.

    320. David says:

      Read Wednesdays National Kevin McKenna the SNP Leadership is paralysed on Independence at just the wrong time
      Where is the debate about Indy ref 2 at the SNPS upcoming conference .
      I fear that the partys caution is now bordering on negligence .
      That is just some of it

    321. Alan Murphy says:

      Could we sign a petition in Scotland against the refusal of a section 30 and have it debated in Parliament

    322. Terry callachan says:

      Shetland and Orkney and Fife and the north east of Scotland are the only places in Scotland that vote Lib Dem but there may be a bit more tactical voting in future elections in Scotland because people are at a loss about who will support their interests , there are so many interests to support what with brexit deal or no deal and remain then there is Scottish independence yes or no and things like austerity privatisation of the NHS and the paradise papers scandal.

      Which of these issues is the single most important issue to the greatest number of people in Scotland ?

      I would have thought Scottish independence is but clearly there are a great number of people who value the question of being in or being out of the EU more highly .

      There may be a high number of people who to them reversing austerity is of greater importance.

      Has this jumble of highly important issues been brought to the fore all at the same time on purpose by Westminster just to unsettle voters in the hope that they can panic people into making decisions for the short term voting through anger rather than through reasoned judgement of what is in their best interests long term.

      SNP are leading the Scottish independence campaign
      Of that there is no doubt
      Nobody else comes close
      We have come a long way
      Enlarged the following and the interest in Scottish independence
      Everyone in Scotland now knows about it and has talked about it
      We should give SNP our complete support to carry it through to a successful outcome there is no other route that is possible without damaging fragmentation to the support for scottish independence

    323. Colin Alexander says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      “why interrupt your enemy when it is making an arse of itself?”

      I agree.

      Yet the SNP has spent the last three years trying to stop Brexit, followed by accepting Brexit but, trying to stop no deal or almost as bad as no deal Brexit.

      As Rock used to say: “flogging a dead horse”. However, we can’t turn the clock back.

      So, looking forward:

      Dave, as you have the inside knowledge: Any info on when the FM will request an S30 or start the court action to establish if one is needed?

    324. geeo says:

      Like buses, 2 pish gibbering concern trolls appear one after another.

      Coco and Callachan, yer fooling nobody, pair of imbeciles.

      (Awaits usual tiresome retorts from a “couple o fannies”) to quote a scene from Chewin the Fat.

      Indy is coming, you can smell the stench of British Nationalist panic from here.

    325. Legerwood says:

      Terry callachan says:
      17 July, 2019 at 7:03 pm
      “”Worth a read

      Blows the britnat media reports about drug addiction in Scotland out of the water
      Another case of Westminster keeping Scottish people down

      https://munguin.wordpress.com/“”
      ……………..

      Interesting read. I first heard of the Portuguese decriminalisation of drugs in a recent Michael Moore film where he was comparing how various European countries dealt with various issues compared to what happened in the USA. Italy – holidays; France – school meals etc.

      The Portuguese approach, which involved more than decriminalisation, seems to have worked. On CH4 news on Tuesday night a Portuguese official was interviewed about their approach and put some more meat on the bones.

      Interesting too was Jon Snow’s reaction on CH4 news on Tuednightghito Annie Wells crude attempt to turn the issue into a party political point scoring issue.

      J4

    326. CameronB Brodie says:

      A bit from the above link for those who don’t bother clicking links. I’m relieved that my interpretation of events appears to be in agreement with academia, though I have one major criticism of this analysis. It completely ignores, and so lacks respect for, Scotland and our lack of legal protection of our human rights. So Scotland will just have to make-do with English authoritarian social conservatism? Is that Scotland’s place in the world, England’s post-colonial bitch?

      ….The proportion of Interwar and Baby Boomers in Western societies has gradually declined, losing hegemonic status and cultural power – although they usually remain a bare majority of active voters and thus their preferences continue to be over-reflected in representative bodies. At a certain point, a tipping point occurs in society, as the proportion of those holding traditional values becomes the new minority in the population.

      This experience, we theorize, triggers an authoritarian reflex among the older and less educated sectors most resistant to cultural change, who seek strong leaders to defend socially-conservative values, blaming liberal elites like Westminster politicians, the media, academic experts, Eurocrats and the establishment in general, as well as out-groups like immigrants and foreigners for lack of respect for traditional values.

      This account can be applied to help explain the outbreak of cultural wars over Brexit and its dispiriting aftermath. If so, then the division between the Leave and Remain camps should be found to revolve around the cultural cleavage between authoritarian and libertarian values, especially where Leave is endorsed by older generations who feel threatened by the rapid pace of cultural change and the loss of respect for traditional ways of life.

      The threat to socially-conservative values is expected to have triggered an authoritarian reflex among these groups – emphasizing the importance of maintaining collective security by enforcing strict conformity with traditional mores within the tribe, a united front against outsiders, and loyalty towards tribal leaders….

    327. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T:
      Just to let Wingers know I’ve not gone off in the huff. I woke up a week past Tuesday and couldn’t see the time on my alarm clock. I’ve got cataracts in both eye’s. I’m typing this with the help of a large magnifying glass and I still can’t see either the screen or the keyboard without strain. I won’t even try to read replies.

    328. donnywho says:

      There is and has been much talk about the lack of zeal that the SNP are showing for the cause of independence.

      I am in the wait and see… I kind of trust them category.

      This is not because I am a shallow sheep following the herd sort of a guy It is because I do not trust the Media nor the Government of this country.

      Things we do absolutely know, that the state security services have infiltrated the SNP in the past and have used Agent Provocateurs within the general Indy movement to discredit the whole idea of independence.

      Things we absolutely know are that the security forces and the special branch have infiltrated ecological and green groups in the recent past. Cases ongoing regarding long term relationships engaged with police undercover operatives.

      What we absolutely know is that the SNP represent the greatest threat to the Union since the second world war and if the Eco’s are enough of a threat to infiltrate and destabilize then how much more so are the SNP “Fair Game”!

      This brings us to the main point I was trying to make. It is simply that the SNP know these facts and are brought up with a sense of paranoia that surrounds all its decision making.

      On simplest terms they are very cautious about showing their hand. This is wise when you realize what is arrayed against you in terms of the State and the Media.

      I for one, thought that their White Paper on Independence was a decent and worthy publication and showed their commitment to good governance. But the information and thinking it released about the way forward for independence was used quite cynically against the whole YES movement. Whatever we say or plan to do will be opposed ridiculed and undermined.

      This does not mean that we do not fight for independence it means we have to be more subtle and use our enemies’ strengths against them. Like fighting decently for the best deal for Brexit; whilst in all honesty knowing that the Tories will have none of it. It shows the whole UK what a bunch of self-serving wombles they are and that the system is broken.
      The SNP are not fighting for Independence directly they are using the arrogance of the Westminster to destroy its own standing both Worldwide and Domestically.

      The beauty of this approach is that it cannot be stopped unless they, the Tories start to act reasonably but like the Scorpion and the Frog it is not in their nature and they will sting the frog halfway across the river.

      Sorry I feel I have rambled on a bit would like to talk about the Media and the States control of Broadcasting but that would triple my word count and I must go and make tea.

    329. Wull says:

      Hello, Roger @ 9.41. I considered mentioning this fact in my comment – i.e. the fact that at one point the face of Duns Scotus was mistakenly put on Irish bank-notes – but decided not to. It was late, would have required explanation, and it would only have complicated the comment.

      Let me explain how that mistake happened.

      It is true that earlier in the Middle Ages, prior to the time of our Scotus, the term ‘Scotus’ would have been used to describe an Irishman. One of the most famous was the monk and theologian Scotus Eruginus, who certainly was Irish. At that time it could perhaps also be applied to Gaelic-speaking Scots. However, by the time of our Scotus – John of Duns – it applied to everyone belonging to the Scottish kingdom and loyal to the Scottish crown.

      So it applied to all Scots, no mattered their ethnic origins or linguistic group. English speakers as well as Gaelic speakers (the original Scotti, if you like), Normans who had come up from England or direct from Normandy, Flemings who were originally from Flanders but who had settled in Scotland – by that time (certainly by or before the middle of the 13th Century) they were all simply known as ‘Scots’.

      With regard to John of Duns, the confusion really arose when the otherwise excellent Irish Franciscan Scotus Scholar of the 17th Century Luke Wadding tried to claim John of Duns for Ireland. We can forgive him that error, for he did a great deal of important scholarly work on Scotus’s texts. While he made some mistakes, which only began to be corrected by further Scotus scholars from the mid-20th Century onwards, the editions Wadding produced of Scotus’s works were invaluable for the next three centuries, and more.

      You could say that Wadding made his mistake out of love. He loved Scotus so much, and was so proud of him, that he absolutely WANTED him to be an Irishman. We should still be grateful to Wadding, irrespective of this error. The mistake he made in regard to Scotus’ origin and nationality is far less significant than the fact that he helped to preserve Scotus’s work, and ensured that it was preserved and continued to be made known and studied.

      Sometimes he also attributed a work to Scotus that modern scholarship has been able to prove was written by another author. The critical edition of Scotus’s works is still being worked on. While many volumes of this critical edition have now been published (it is known as ‘the Vatican edition’) there are still many more to be completed. Modern scholarship is also unanimous that Duns Scotus was a Scotsman, who originally came from Duns.

      That unanimity is shared by Scotus scholars from every part of the world. It is not a matter of Scots blowing their own trumpet about him. Besides the Irish claim, long since proved spurious, there was also at one point a claim that he came from the North of England – but that too was proved to be untenable, and soon fll by the wayside. The number of Scottish scholars with even a working knowledge of Scotus are very few indeed. Although there is quite a formidable band of top-rank international experts who are specialised in Scotus, there is hardly a single Scot among them. All of these recognised first rank experts agree that he came from Scotland.

    330. Roger says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      If all that’s true, if it’s simply a revolt by ‘Boomers’, why did it not happen in Scotland? Or do ‘Boomers’ live longer in Scotland?

    331. call me dave says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Sorry to hear about the eyes Mr Peffers.

      But at this end your post is indeed a sight for sore eyes!

      Do hope you get back to better health.
      Many on hear have been asking after you. 🙂 🙂

    332. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers

      So glad to hear you are OK (notwithstanding your eye problems).

      I realise you said you won’t be able to read any replies, but I just hope you can get to know we miss you and hope for a speedy resolution to your problem.

      King regards,

    333. call me dave says:

      Here sounds like hear. 🙁

    334. sassenach says:

      ooft – KIND not king!!

    335. geeo says:

      NICE TO HEAR FROM YOU ROBERT AND THAT YOU ARE OK !! !!!

    336. stu mac says:

      @Lenny Hartley says:
      17 July, 2019 at 6:07 pm

      JMD dont know if its a third of yes voters who have switched to No but it was above 20% if I remember correctly with broadly the same figure coming to yes from no due to Brexit. That was just after the EU referendum since then more folk have been coming to yes.

      Although that 20% (plus) voted “Yes” it’s possible they weren’t all really committed “yes” voters but many were EU-haters who fell for the line that we’d be thrown out of the EU if we voted for independence. Some of the original “no”s on the other hand may have been soft “no”s who were pro-EU and fell for the same line but changed when the Brexit referendum came along. I also think the revelation of the various lies told at indyref 1 brought some soft “no”‘ over too. On a perosnal note I’d say that I was a swithering “yes” in 2014 but seeing the lies and actions of the anti-indy campaigners during and after that time, I’ve changed to a staunch “yes”.

    337. Marie Clark says:

      Robert Peffers . Sorry to hear about your problems with your eyes, but pleased that you have checked in . Many of us were becoming quite concerned for your health.

      Hope your eye problems are dealt with soon. Keep well.

    338. ben madigan says:

      @Robert peffers – glad to hear it’s the relatively minor problem of cataracts and nothing more serious. Modern Day Surgery techniques should sort you out shortly. All the best! here’s hoping for a speedy recovery!

    339. CameronB Brodie says:

      Roger
      I suspect our experience of the original “Project Fear” during the 2014 indyref, somehow ‘inoculated Scotland against the appeal of authoritarian English nationalism. Then again, it might have something to do with the fact that Scotland is not England. Scottish nationalism is supportive of multiculturalism, (white) English/British nationalism, not so much. 😉

    340. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. This doesn’t prove English are inherently more racist that Scots, though it does suggest we have a different experiences and responses to multiculturalism. Whichever way you cut it though, it means that Scotland’s political economy will be harmed as a result of social attitudes that are not shared widely in Scotland. Most alarmingly, the British constitution appears to provides zero protection for Scottish culture and the Scottish world-view. That’s because British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism and an expression of English utilitarianism, frankly.

    341. uno mas says:

      GET WELL SOON MR PEFFERS

      WE NEED YOU ! !

    342. Capella says:

      CHEERS ROBERT PEFFERS – THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW. KEEP IN TOUCH

    343. Socrates MacSporran says:

      What great news, that Auld Boab is OK. I do sincerely hope his cataracts problem can be speedily sorted-out – we need him more than ever at this time.

    344. Roger says:

      @CameronP broody.

      Thanks, Cameron.
      ‘Scottish nationalism is supportive of multiculturalism, (white) English/British nationalism, not so much.’
      Yes, but Scotland, compared to England, has v little experience of multiculturalism/immigration. That’s a difference between England and Scotland that must have some impact on different attitudes to migration/multiculturalism in the two countries.

      I think there are two factors that get overlooked:

      1) You keep hearing about ‘uneducated’ voters supporting Brexit, but ‘uneducated’ is another word for unskilled workingclass. Mass migration provides more of a threat/competition for unskilled workingclass people than for others – can all opposition to unrestricted migration be simply put down to racism or xenophobia?

      2) Are elected politicians supposed to a) further the interests and reflect the values of their electorate? or b) advance a universalist liberal agenda on issues such as gender and unrestricted migration? You have seen opposition to some of these sort of policies (GRA, for example) even here on Wings – is that simply ‘authoritarian’/socially conservative?

      Also, all these ‘simply bigotted’ explanations totally ignore economic factors and growing inequality (see Monbiot in the Gruaniad today)
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/17/housing-britain-landlord-tenants

    345. Alt Clut says:

      It’s mostly been said but here goes.
      Long ago we thought that Indy just might be a cricket match we would win a calmly conducted vote and walk away – hmmm !
      Then we,very gradually, realised that some sort of big crisis would be needed to give us a majority and weaken rUK will to resist.

      Seems to me that our current hot flushes arise from us not understanding how deep the crisis needs to be. So far Brexit has just been a slightly wobbly pound and enough WORDS to fill deep space. Crash out by dictatorial means is now a distinct possibility and severe economic consequences will result quickly. That’s our crisis – not the bullshit so far.
      The UK elite will never let us go while they have any grip on their ability to prevent it.
      We’re going to have to oppose crash out, let it happen, and wait for the dying hand to weaken its grip. Then we might find an issue on which we could abstain on something at Westminster in return for some kind of deal. No point in surmising what the issues will be as we shall all be in uncharted space.
      We mustn’t ever ACTIVELY support what the Tories et al do or nearly all of the people of England will be our enemies and we need to remember that they outnumber us nine or ten to one.Also, they have state power and we don’t.
      The watchword still needs to be – Patience, Wait, Get Ready.

      It won’t be pretty but we can win.

    346. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      Hope the cataracts are dealt with soon, best wishes.

    347. Hamish100 says:

      Anyone quoting Kevin McKenna as gospel be warned. He will say the opposite next article depending who is paying.

      Seems the doubters are out in force. As good as indicator that the britnats are worried.

      Speedy recovery to Mr Peffers.

    348. frogesque says:

      Robert P

      Herself had cataracts seen to over a year ago an swears it’s the best thing she’s had done. First few days were a bit nippy but after that steady improvement in her sight over a few weeks and now she only needs glasses for close work and reading.

    349. geeo says:

      Hamish100@ 10.46pm

      Well said.

      McKenna is as committed a British Nationalist as any other of his ilk.

      And as cubby says, britnats lie, and the lie all the time.

    350. CameronB Brodie says:

      Roger
      Indeed, Scotland’s experience of multiculturalism is different to England’s. That is no excuse for the British constitution providing zero protection to residents of Scotland, against the abuse of constitutional power. Does it?

    351. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for for getting caught in two minds and my poor editing.

      That is no excuse…. Is it? or ….providing zero protection to residents of Scotland, against the abuse of constitutional power. Does it?

      The impact of Brexit on foreign investment in the UK
      The effect of EU membership on FDI

      A number of factors determine where firms choose to locate and invest. Bigger and richer markets tend to attract more firms, which want to be close to their customers. The UK has strong rule of law, flexible labour markets and a highly educated workforce, all of which make it an attractive FDI location whether or not it is in the EU. But since EU membership reduces trade and investment costs, it is likely to have an impact even after controlling for these other
      factors.

      To estimate the size of the effect of being in the EU on FDI, we provide a new empirical analysis – see Bruno et al (2016) in the Technical Appendix to this report. It is a statistical model based on the bilateral FDI flows between 34 OECD countries from 1985 to 2013. The model estimates why foreign investors choose to invest in the UK, as opposed to other countries such as Germany, France or the United States. It is similar to the ‘gravity model’ that is the standard way of estimating bilateral flows of exports and imports….

      ….These estimates are also consistent with those in Campos and Coricelli (2015), who find an impact of 25% to 30% on FDI flows from EU membership using an alternative method comparing the evolution of UK FDI with a set of matched countries as a comparison group. Similarly, Straathof et al (2008) find that EU membership increases inward FDI stocks by 14% from non-EU countries and by 28% from other EU members (using a gravity model but with earlier data).

      https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit03.pdf

    352. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not the best editor and speed editing is defiantly not one of my strengths. I missed this linking sentence.

      …The data show that there is always a statistically significant positive effect of being in the EU on inward FDI. The magnitude ranges from a 14% to 38% increase in FDI depending on the exact statistical method used with an average of 28% across the main three methods.

    353. Liz g says:

      HASTE YE BACK ROBERT PEFFERS X

    354. kapelmeister says:

      Ruth Davidson’s Team, the chancers, the fancy dancers wi’ nae answers, are now brandishing kippers at their public meetings. What larks!

      That’ll be the hot topic on the intellectual Jeremy Vine Show for Paul the butler and Storm the weatherperson. Who wants grown up discussions about trade tariffs an’ that?

    355. Sarah says:

      @Alan Murphy: petitions to Holyrood would be a good way to get a proper debate and response, unlike the garbage from Westminster. I heard an MSP say that petitions to Holyrood do make a difference.

    356. Cubby says:

      I’ve lost count of the number of times I have asked people who post that we NEED a section 30 to kindly explain why.

      Reply to date – nothing Zilch.

    357. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 12.07
      A section 30 ye say…

      Well it would be nice to look at.
      And mibbi pleasant tae hold ?

      Claiming that’s it’s necessary..???…
      Now that’s gettin old 🙂

    358. Liz g says:

      OT so far OT I’m not even going to say sorry.
      But I don’t do Twitter!!

      But here’s a question that was posed in my hoose the night..
      And don’t be judging ma company !!! 🙂

      If Trans Women ARE Women..
      Therefore Trans men ARE Men
      Where would that leave the Masonic Lodge ???

      Tis a puzzle!!!

    359. Dr Jim says:

      Amongst the powers reserved to Westminster’s UK Government is

      *Space* Yes the outer one, the final frontier, the one where no man has gone before (Yes I did say man, original series franchise)

      See now I really really want spacemen to arrive on earth and be told by Westminster they have to pay a tax to travel in London controlled outer space

      And then the spacemen eat them

    360. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Oh dear me, and I always thought the Cataracts were part of the “Upper Nile” Region of Egypt…!

      How the F*** did they get to Scotland.. and infect our head Druid..?? 🙂

    361. CmonIndy says:

      Ooh you gotta see the Steve Bell cartoon that the Guardian has refused to publish. Featuring Tom Watson snd Benjamin “the cunt” Netan-yahoo.

    362. Petra says:

      Nick Clegg talking sense for once.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17777284.nick-clegg-says-brexit-means-union-39-s-break-up-39-likely-not-39/

      ……………………….

      Just catching up on here and was pleased to see that I cheered you folks up this morning, but all I can say now is that I suffered for it and I’m not just talking about my poor feet, lol. And yeah it is comin’ yet for a’ that and when it does we’ll be dancing in the streets and invite the World to join us (most of it that is).

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziktH897vkI

      @ Dorothy Devine says at 7:04 am ..”Petra , that was like a wee Cactus impression ! Wish I could have had some of what you have had but your posts fair cheered me up and I hope and pray that it is comin’ yet for a’ that!

      @ Ghillie says at 7:22 am … ”Petra, your happiness is contagious ? So glad you had such a great night out AND especially that you met so many No turned to YES voters! Just brilliant! Yes, our Indy celebrations will be the best party ever in the whole wide World and the whole wide World will join us ?

      ………………………

      Great to see that all is well with Robert or will be when he gets his cataracts dealt with. What a trooper, eh? He must have been really struggling to compose his posts between one health issue and another. Looking forward to him returning to the site X

    363. Lukas Scholts says:

      The more variables there are, the more difficult it is to predict outcomes, and, crucially, the more likely that the outcome will be a huge surprise. This is axiomatic.

      In such circumstances it makes sense to focus on primary goals. If that means dealing with conservatives, that’s okay. Politicians should never rule things out, not forever or for a generation. It is the hallmark of a weak politician to do that.

      A lot of the permutations here, even if we can’t predict which will prevail, lead to increased poverty and hardship in Scotland. This is good news if your goal is to achieve independence.

      Just as there’s a contradiction in the SNP working to save England from Brexit, there is also a structural contradiction in mitigating austerity and any future hardships that result in Scotland as a consequence of Brexit. This is all based on independence being the primary goal, by any means necessary, which is an assumption.

      The Scottish independence movement needs an alternative to the SNP strategy. Maybe Salmond can return and serve such a purpose.

    364. Mary miles says:

      Hi from Tassie

      So glad you are ok Robert P. Hurry up and get your eyes done and return to Wings with your great contributions. God Bless.

    365. Breeks says:


      Roger says:
      17 July, 2019 at 10:12 pm
      @CameronP broody.

      Thanks, Cameron.
      ‘Scottish nationalism is supportive of multiculturalism, (white) English/British nationalism, not so much.’
      Yes, but Scotland, compared to England, has v little experience of multiculturalism/immigration. That’s a difference between England and Scotland that must have some impact on different attitudes to migration/multiculturalism in the two countries….

      I do take your point as you intended it Roger, and choosing my words carefully to avoid stepping on any bigotry landlines, I would point out however that Scotland’s anglicisation, frequently involuntary anglicisation, has provided Scotland with a wealth of experience of multiculturalism and immigration, not to mention a healthy dose of colonial subjugation and subordination by an invasive culture into the bargain.

      You simply do not to see it from the same perspective or judge it by the same criteria, but it is the same thing.

      Perhaps the word you are looking for is multiracialism, not multiculturalism. It’s a different word for a lot of the same phobias.

    366. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Liz g @ 12.47am asked: “Where would that leave the Masonic Lodge???”

      I would assume where it has been throughout my 70+ years of life: Somewhere in the late 19th century.

    367. Breeks says:

      I’m glad you ok too Robert Peffers, although you probably don’t think I’m sincere… but I am.

      I know what it’s like to be ordered directly to hospital without passing GO for an eye condition that threatens you with a world of perpetual darkness. No more day or night ever again. Of all senses; taste, hearing, touch, smell, I think the loss of sight must undoubtedly be the most profound and frightening to contemplate.

    368. Phronesis says:

      Scotland is resilient -independence is now a pressing matter to empower Scotland to make the fairest and wisest choices for all its citizens. The UK political system and its wonky economics is an abject failure, except for a very small % of entitled individuals.

      ‘Resilient individuals, communities and cities are those that are able to endure, adapt and generate new ways of functioning in times of adversity, challenge and change. Understanding the processes that promote resilience, as well as those that undermine it, is important in creating the conditions in which people and communities can be supported to thrive.’

      https://www.gcph.co.uk/resilience_and_empowerment

      Surprising to see such hand wringing over the drug deaths in Scotland when social care cuts, legislation (in England) that leads to fragmentation of services and years of austerity are contributing to the UK’s shocking figures of fatal overdose. All policies that have been implemented and cheered on by the current UK government.

      ‘Drug-related deaths (DRDs) are at their highest level since records began in 1993 with 3,756 DRDs in
      England and Wales last year, 53% of which related to opiate use. Almost a third of all deaths from
      overdose in 2016 in Europe happened in the UK. This constitutes a public health and humanitarian crisis which must be addressed urgently…The Government must reverse recent cuts to public health funding, and instead provide sufficient resources to meet need, in line with its own ostensible commitment to prevention’

      https://www.nat.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/drug_related_deaths_in_england.pdf.

      And it seems they have learned nothing about their ‘boom-slump-austerity-reset’ economic model.

      ‘the finance-dependent growth regime that typified the UK economy in the period up to the Great Crash of 2008 has much deeper roots than is commonly realised…the growth of finance was integral to the Thatcher revolution, tying together mortgage markets, household debt, and boom-bust cycles as early as the mid-1980s…policy-makers in this period were aware of all the weaknesses of this growth model, to the point that they effectively diagnosed what would happened in 2008, back in 1987…selecting for a finance-led growth model as the preferred growth model so early effectively rendered other possible growth models for the UK unattainable. The result was the shift from an economy characterised by ‘stop-go’ cycles in the post-war period to an economy characterised by recurrent ‘boom-slump-austerity-reset’ cycles in the Thatcher and post Thatcher periods. The 2008 crisis did not change this highly unstable mode of accumulation’

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13563467.2018.1473355

    369. Sinky says:

      We’re doomed. Gordon Brown and fake professor Jim Gallagher to from yet another pro Union think tank which is going to look at currency options. This from a man who sold UK gold reserves at lowest price and time serving civil servant.

    370. Abulhaq says:

      @Breeks 7:31
      It is too easily overlooked that contemporary Scotland is more English than was the case 300 years ago. The extent to which the process of anglicization has affected Scotland’s institutions, law and cultural sense is an unploughed field for academe.
      The British imperium impacted all touched by it. Everywhere it left forms of the dread ‘cringe’ and a lingering inferiority complex.
      The soft power of anglo-american cultural hegemony through media, finance, so called international organizations and the energetic promotion of the English language are testimony to the continuing ‘clout’ of that imperium.
      Scottish nationalism has still far to go in acknowledging and combating this as old style Unionism attempts anew to assert its influence within the British state.

    371. galamcennalath says:

      The Hootsmon… “Boris Johnson could be the last prime minister of the United Kingdom unless a fightback is launched speaking up for “mainstream” Scots and making a “progressive case” for the Union, Gordon Brown has warned.”

      This is just so deluded on every level.

      ‘unless a fightback is launched’ … against whom? The Tories? Nah, Federal Broon doesn’t fight Tories, he embraces them as BritNat chums.

      ‘mainstream’ … presented with Johnson as PM and a hard Brexit, mainstream Scottish opinion is now independence, particularly from centre and left. Broon’s views are now minority. Those who want the Union are primarily right wing and Tory.

      ‘progressive’ and ‘Union, in the same sentence …. get real, England is decades away from being progressive. English Nationalism and far right isolationism are in vogue.

    372. mike cassidy says:

      Lizg 12.47am

      Those masons, what are they like, eh.

      ” Those now eligible to become a member of a male-only lodge include:

      Men

      A Freemason who joined as a man, but later underwent gender reassignment to become a woman”

      A woman who underwent reassignment to become a man before applying to become a Freemason

      Question is

      What does ‘gender reassignment’ mean?

      Having your bits changed – or simply self-identifying.

      http://archive.is/bHA41

    373. Abulhaq says:

      @galamcennalath @ 09:08
      Be exceeding wary of those who employ the term ‘progressive’. A scorpion word with nasty sting in its tail.

    374. auld highlander says:

      A top EU official has accused the UK’s Brexit negotiators of “running around like idiots”,

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-documentary-bbc-panorama-michel-barnier-timmermans-dads-army-a9010066.html

    375. Terry Callachan says:

      Here we have common space who say they support Scottish independence doing the dirty work for Westminster again.

      https://www.commonspace.scot/sites/all/modules/civicrm/extern/url.php?u=5097&qid=1930964

      Carrying this story saying Scotland has the worst record for drug abuse deaths in Europe , it’s not true, countries calculate and record these deaths in different ways for example as has already been shown by thoughtcontrolscotland , England do not include suicides as drug abuse deaths but Scotland does and there are other countries who do it differently too but BBC and the britnat newspapers like to portray Scotland in a bad light, they said the same thing about Scotland having the worst record n Europe for under sixteen pregnancies and that wasn’t true either.

      Here in Dundee we have a local newspaper the courier and it’s favourite ploy is to print unsupported stories about Dundee being the worst at everything drug abuse alcohol abuse unemployment under sixteen pregnancies crime if you read the courier you just wouldn’t want to live in Dundee and yet time after time independent reports state that evidence shows that Dundee is a great place to live with high numbers of residents being extremely happy living in Dundee.

      I’ve noticed too that the newspapers in Glasgow have started the same nonsense an increased number of stories about how awful Glasgow is , tactics by the britnat establishment to try and convince people that these cities are terrible I’m sure that when the time comes we will see stories about Boris Johnston and others saying their party will spend money to regenerate places in Scotland , how often have we heard that in their manifestos in the past .

      Common space has some good reports but in my opinion they are dodgy and slant towards knee jerk reporting copied from the britnat media, they should know better.

    376. Liz g says:

      Mike Cassidy @ 9.20
      Aye,well ….
      It’s the “baring the left breast to prove your not a woman ” bit!!! That caused a lot of hilarity…
      This is funnier than the concept of “The great architect of the universe ” but no quite as funny as going doon “the wee bury hole ” ! :-)!!

    377. Dr Jim says:

      Why aren’t the Brexiters on Scotland’s side, after all the Brexiters claim they want to *take back control* they claim they want *self determination* they claim they want to *strike their own deals* they claim they want to be a *sovereign nation* and all these claims and desires they have are the same ones Scotland’s people want for our country

      But that’s where the problem comes in with the Brexiters they also claim they own Scotland which means they don’t believe Scotland is a country, or don’t want to believe it

      Either way the taking back control means the taking back control of Scotland even though it’s proved beyond doubt Scotland is a country

      The Brexiters are a completely undemocratic lot, on the one hand they win a referendum to do what they want but refuse to allow the same rules to apply to Scotland

      Are Scotland’s people worth less than the Brexit winners of England, they would appear to think so

      In terms of what the Brexiters call the EUs domination of them they don’t apply the same rule to themselves in that their vision and use of the UK Union dominates Scotland, and even if we were to admit we joined this Union voluntarily (which we didn’t) then we surely have the right to leave this Union voluntarily by any means we so choose and Brexiting England should have no say whatsoever in that decision

      Show me the referendum results of 1707 or the National conversation of the time or the campaign coverage of the people of Scotland, show me the YES result of the joining of this Union with England

      How can you base some high placed individuals doing a deal with royalty in another country in 1707 as a legal basis in 2019 to claim that Scotland can’t choose to do whatever it likes whenever it likes and leave this Union on the same basis we supposedly joined it

      Give England their twenty quid back with a bit of paper saying refund on it and be done with them

    378. Dorothy Devine says:

      You know the worse they make Scotland look in the eyes of those south of the border the fewer incomers will want to come for free personal care , free education , free parking at hospitals and all the other benefits brought about by the SNP government .

      The more they shout about our bigotry and not just
      ‘ religious ‘ bigotry masquerading under football banners ,our anti Englishness ( as though they are the most important folk ) the fewer will want to come here – so I say carry on , those with eyes wide open will come and those with closed , manipulated minds will not.

      And maybe the others who couldn’t give a stuff about us but still believe we are a drain on their resources will demand we piss off – most excellent say I and very willing to oblige.

    379. Ken500 says:

      Now Major is threatening to sue the Tory Gov for trying to exit the EU. What an absolute shambles. Unbelievable. The Tories are toast especially in Scotland. Into oblivion. The lying sycophants. They were obnoxious in the 1990’s and are even more now. Closer ties to the EU increased the economy. Thatcher had to go. The absolute chaos and violence of the Thatcher years. A complete incompetent mess. Thatcher secretly and illegally funded London S/E with the Scottish revenues. Thatcher illegally deregulated banking and caused the banking crash. Appalling mismanagement of the economy. Devolution 2000 benefited Scotland. The Tories held it back 20 years. The Tories are a total worldwide embarrassment. Labour and the illegal wars. Destroyed the world economy. More absolute lies,

      Drugs policy should be taken back into the SNHS system not be under social care non funded properly by the (unionist) councils. Leaving people on methadone for years and early death. A total waste, instead of proper total abstinence, one chance, rehab counselling facilities. Cheaper and more cost effective. So people can lead much better lives. A travesty of justice.

    380. kapelmeister says:

      Gordon Brown tells the Courier ahead of his think tank launch that it’s all about Scotland having “pride of place in the UK” instead of being “told it’s place”.

      Does he even believe this garbage himself?

      What’s the name of his think tank, Deja Vu the Noo? And who uses the phrase “pride of place” anymore? Unreal.

    381. Dr Jim says:

      Gordon Brown jumping and clunking up and down again insisting England’s politicians make a case for the Union ….again!

      Two things wrong with that, first they’ve had 300 years to make a case for the Union and still can’t manage it without their main case being threats if we don’t remain within their family of nations (family of *nations* until we want to leave then not a nation)

      Second, he’s asking the politicians of England to do this job because there are so few Unionist politicians in Scotland to do it because the people don’t vote for them

      The clue is in how people vote, haven’t they worked this out yet, well of course they have but the problem is we’re all bloody Scottish up here so don’t fully understand this voting thing so we need England’s politicians to keep telling us we’re doing it wrong

    382. Ken500 says:

      Many people in the rest of the UK support Scottish Independence. The right to chose self determination, self governance and EU membership. Most more likely do not care. It is the imbecile unionists politicians who are ignorant and arrogant. They could not make a bigger mess. Absolute shambles. Westminster are the world laughing stock. Reprehensible.

    383. Ken500 says:

      Brown Vow reneged upon. Labour illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Wasted £Billions. What a bunch of losers,

    384. Dr Jim says:

      Every time Gordon Brown opens his big stupid gub he actually admits that Scotland is oppressed and taken advantage of but instead of the obvious solution of getting rid of the oppressors (England) who do it we should just keep asking them to stop doing it

      300 years later, still hasn’t worked and if he could keep himself alive Gordon Brown would still be *asking* in another 300 years

    385. Welsh Sion says:

      People are talking about the latest Broontervention.

      Is this the man they’re looking for?

      https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/grunting-man-gimp-suit-terrorising-3093635

    386. Abulhaq says:

      Scottish nationalists want action from the leadership. Effectively we have had three years of the English, the Tories and Brexit. Next week there will be a new English pm in Westminster. The hiatus, the stasis, the interregnum, the shouting from the sidelines, the non pro-activity call it what you will must end.
      The rule of their law must be seen to be abrogated.
      Scotland first….and why on Earth not?

    387. Abulhaq says:

      Gordon Brown is a romantic. In the political context such types are given to rapturous devotion.
      Unionism is his ‘cult’.

    388. Terry Callachan says:

      Interesting link here about how New Zealand gained independence “ from England “ !!

      As New Zealand found out you can never ever trust any political agreement or legislation made by Westminster

      https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PLLawRP07041/new-zealand-sovereignty-1857-1907-1947-or-1987

    389. Scozzie says:

      Oh jeez dusting off Gordon Brown from his crypt to spook us all into supporting the union, no wait federalism, no wait subjigation. Is there anybody out there…who’s listening?

    390. Terry Callachan says:

      Here we see Westminster in 1964
      deciding to bin Scottish laws that existed prior to the union

      https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1964/jul/22/statute-law-revision-scotland-bill-lords

      Laws dating back six hundred years
      Many of them the fogeys in the House of Lords could not understand
      So who do they ask ?
      A Scotsman ? Nah
      An expert in a Scottish university ? Nah
      An expert in the Scottish law society ? Nah

      The English solicitor general

    391. Dr Jim says:

      A law in 1797 CAN’T be adhered to as a legal argument in 2019 argue politicians in Westminster over the proroguing of the UK parliament

      But the same politicians argue that the 1707 even earlier Act of Union can and IS a legal argument of enforcement

      I’ll await this legal argument with interest while I’m sharpening the edges of my porridge bombs

    392. wullie says:

      Aye Terry
      What did the Scottish legal system do to stop this interference in Scots Law. Bugger all I would imagine

    393. wullie says:

      Ah. Scozzie
      In gordon Browns case is there anybody in there

    394. Jack Murphy says:

      Petra began her Post at 2:21am with:
      “Nick Clegg talking sense for once.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17777284.nick-clegg-says-brexit-means-union-39-s-break-up-39-likely-not-39/

      Thanks for that, and for this afternoon’s readers here’s a random Copy and Paste of Clegg’s comment:

      “The Brexit demon has unleashed such an aggressive and regressive right-wing English nationalism. And that the Conservative Party is converting itself into an English nationalist party.

      “It has so little representation in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and they have to compete with Farage.

      So the Conservative Party is condemned to be pulled in an ever more English and divisive direction.”

    395. Marcia says:

      Back to deja vow with Brown again. He has had more repeats than some BBC programmes.

    396. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Where is the ‘see new tweets’ button on the Wings Twitter?

      And why the fuck can’t they just leave things alone?

      🙁

    397. Scozzie says:

      Wullie
      Haha so true, he’s just an old fossil. But a red, white and blue striped fossil.

    398. galamcennalath says:

      These are the type of ‘people’ the Conservative party accepts into their ranks …

      https://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/news/crime/borders-community-council-chairman-hit-with-500-court-bill-for-breaching-race-hate-laws-1-4964798

      If he is still a member, where’s Davidson on this?

      If he’s left, he was once very much part of the party. They are nasty under the surface, very nasty.

    399. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian Brotherhood at 1:14 pm.

      You typed,
      “Where is the ‘see new tweets’ button on the Wings Twitter?”

      Just reload the tab that contains the WOS Twitter page and you’ll see any new tweets. You don’t have to depend on ‘see new tweets’.

    400. Legerwood says:

      Terry Callachan says:
      18 July, 2019 at 12:43 pm
      Here we see Westminster in 1964
      deciding to bin Scottish laws that existed prior to the union

      https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1964/jul/22/statute-law-revision-scotland-bill-lords

      …………….

      That was a fascinating read. The level of debate, points made and information contained within seems far before anything that occurs in that place nowadays.

      Do you have any info on the final outcome? I ask because the Union with England act 1707 is still listed among the 83 Acts of the Scots Parliament pre-1707 still on the statute books. See the list here:

      https://www.rps.ac.uk/static/statutes_inforce.html

    401. robbo says:

      Re Robert P and your cataract issues.

      I had both mine done last year abroad and all is good now. I understand where your coming from. It was a terrible experience as was blind in one eye with only 2% vision and other eye was 25% vision. Both got done within a week of each other and now I can drive again,read again, do simple things in life again.

      Hope you get them sorted soon- good wishes.

    402. call me dave says:

      Aye! As I said the last time Gordon rumbled.

      Brew 3 tanna leaves to preserve life and administer 9 to allow the monster to animate itself.

      Who’s making up the potion?

      (1941 Mummy’s hand)

    403. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Cheers.

      So, basically, refresh via the normal toolbar…

      Sorry for being grumpy.

      😉

    404. Petra says:

      @ Terry says at 12:43pm ….. “Bin Scottish Laws.”…

      Thanks for that link Terry. I’ve just had a 2 minute “skim” look at it and see that they wanted to amend / abolish the Treaty of Union (if I’ve got that right!). I don’t have the time to read through it all right now to see what they actually did manage to “bin”, however I would say that it would be well worth us all taking a look at it.

    405. Petra says:

      I see that Legerwood has already taken a look at the Hansard discussions and added additional information … Acts that are still effective. I wonder how many they actually managed to bin and what they related to? Anyway having to run so will try and do a little detective work later, lol.

    406. Craig P says:

      Ah, Gordon Brown wobbling his jowls about “extreme nationalism”.

      Not him of course, he’s a moderate, a “patriot”, Scotland’s shite, we cannae dae it, “British jobs for British workers”, blah blah blah.

      It’s like getting a message from a different dimension.

    407. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The National really is a crappy, synthetic news site. Top ‘story’ is titled ‘Our SNP politicians are not being bought by anyone’s gold’ which is in fact just a couple of readers’ letters, that do nothing to back up that claim to show us they’re not as bent as a 9-bob groat.
      Then we have ‘Scotland looking on in horror amid Tory silence on racism’. Nope, it’s not, especially as it concerns telling ILLEGAL immigrants to go home (for the love of god).
      And then the nadir – Andrew Wilson, spin doctor for the bankers, writes that Scotland will never tell anyone to go home. They really do give that snake a lot of space to write his opinions on there, don’t they?

      Folk who don’t speak for you, speaking for you.

    408. Skyeman says:

      Story on the bbc website uk page, Police solve fewer than one in 10 crimes, This involves English and Welsh police forces but no mention of this on the separate English and Welsh sites.

      Can’t help but think that the bbc would have a different approach to this story if it involved the separate Scottish police service.

    409. schrodingers cat says:

      ive been saying this for months, ukip gave the tories a fright in 2014 eu elections, cameron side stepped them by including an euref in the tory 2015 manifesto.

      this worked, ukippers backed the tories

      boris will head of the bxp voters in the same way, ie by including no deal in the tory party manifesto.

      any analysis of the polls which doesnt combine the bxp and tory voters, isnt worth mentioninging, eg, lab is a few points ahead of the tories,………. big deal, all the polls show no deal is the most popular option with about 45% of voters

      even if the tories only win 39% of the vote, corbyns swithering will only ensure that many remainers vote libdems, or not at all. this willonly ensure the tories win all the marginals

      so ill re iterate

      1. treeza will resign
      2. the mps will chose at least 1 no dealer
      3. the vasst majority of tory rank and file support no deal so will elect a no deal leader. in this case bojo.
      4. bojo will call an election
      5. bojo will back no deal and will win.
      6. the only question is, by how much
      7. hypothetics about the snp are moot because, while we can be fairly confident that the snp will hover up the seats in scotland, calculating the returns in england for tory are more difficult

    410. geeo says:

      Not so Reluctant Nationalist@1.54pm

      Hmm….attacking the ONLY pro indy mainstream media outlet, why on earth would anyone be motivated to do that, hmm ?

      Its a toughie huh ?

    411. Legerwood says:

      Petra says:
      18 July, 2019 at 1:45 pm
      I see that Legerwood has already taken a look at the Hansard discussions and added additional information … Acts that are still effective. I wonder how many they actually managed to bin and what they related to? Anyway having to run so will try and do a little detective work later, lol.
      …………….

      You can actually get to the full list of acts of the Scots Parliament from the link I gave but to save you time, and incase you are still feeling fragile after your night out, here is the link to the full list. It is in chronological order and further divided into the Acts passed during the successive reigns of each Stuart monarch

      https://www.rps.ac.uk/static/statutes_index.html

    412. Dr Jim says:

      Parliaments repeal laws all the time that they either don’t like or consider they don’t reflect modern life just as they make new ones, yet the HOC and whichever party is in power, (at this moment the Tories) demand to keep laws and powers from hundreds of years ago that don’t reflect anything but the power to have power and will brook no interference in these laws

      When it comes to Scotland’s laws, unfortunately ours are all outdated and rubbish and useless in the modern day and don’t count and shut up who the hell are you Scotch plebs anyway, Whoops did I go too far don’t care

      We sing there’ll always be a Jerusalem England shall be free and that shall be the whole of the law, everybody else button it or we’ll do something to you

      They used to convince us to death to be British, they convinced Ireland to death and they resurrected themselves and now they’re doing better than all of us

      I think they’re just using boredom to kill us now

    413. geeo says:

      Well, proroguing parliament just became bit harder for Johnson.

      Even if Parliament is suspended in October, it must be recalled for 5 days to discuss ‘Northern Ireland’ business.

      Which will quickly be hijacked obviously.

      17 tories openly rebelled by voting for the motion, with 30 abstaining.

      As i said previously, Johnson will go for a GE telling his adoring public that “everyone is trying to deny his serving THEIR brexit dream”, so vote for him and the pro no deal candidates (after the pro remain/non no dealers are deselected before said GE).

      That scenario perhaps got one step closer today.

    414. Doug says:

      Broon is an utter disgrace. Total tractor. On fire… piss on him?… nae chance.

    415. Welsh Sion says:

      Petra and Legerwood.

      Here’s the full list (of those repealed and not repealed) Acts of the Old Scottish Parliament>

      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp

      _____________________

      And in breaking news …

      https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/mps-vote-to-block-boris-johnson-from-forcing-through-a-no-deal-brexit/ar-AAEw3pT

      The House of Commons has voted to block Boris Johnson from pursuing a no-deal Brexit by passing an amendment which is designed to prevent him from suspending parliament in order to leave the EU at the end of October.

      MPs on Thursday voted by 315 to 274 to back an amendment to the Northern Ireland Bill, which is designed to force parliament to remain open in the days and weeks running up to that date.

      The amendment, brought forward by Labour MP Hilary Benn, obliges MPs to sit on certain dates at the end of October.

    416. Fionan says:

      Dr Jim @10.37am

      “Give England their twenty quid back with a bit of paper saying refund on it and be done with them”

      Yes, love it! 🙂

    417. Abulhaq says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/jul/18/did-your-mp-vote-to-block-parliament-being-prorogued
      Who cares, none of our business. Time these SNP mps had the guts to do a Sinn Féin. What/who is stopping them?
      All rather pathetic.

    418. Heart of Galloway says:

      Anyone still unconvinced about the folly of moving to taking action too soon would do well to remember what happened at the Battle of Dunbar in September 1651 and the months preceding it.

      The hitherto invincible Cromwell had laid waste to Ireland and has come North to punish the Scots for proclaiming Charles II as king.

      The Scottish army, brilliantly led by General David Leslie, fought a highly effective guerrilla campaign against the invaders which forced Cromwell to lift his siege of Edinburgh and his army to retreat, disease-ridden and reduced in number, to Dunbar.

      The Scots had blocked all land routes of supply from England which meant the weakened English army could only be provisioned by sea.

      Holed up in the small town Cromwell!s troops began to fail as the Scots host on the heights above kept watch.

      Leslie held all the aces and knew that for victory to be secured all that was required was patience until starvation forced the enemy either to evacuate to England, attempt a foolish breakout or surrender.

      But the religious hotheads of the kirk who controlled the country and the army forced Leslie to descend from the hill and give immediate battle.

      “The lord hath delivered them into our hands”, cried Cromwell who within hours routed a Scottish army which had thrown away its advantage.

      Fast forward to the current deadlock, with the government of Scotland seeking to out-manoeuvre a similarly powerful foe.

      What do we do? Charge down the hill to glorious and utter defeat or hold until the keys of victory are delivered to us by a extremist British nationalist government, with BoJo at the helm?

      It’s unbearably hard but we must wait until our allies in Europe are able to join the fray.

    419. Ottomanboi says:

      Here comes that tired old ‘Britain’ again.
      https://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep1week29/britains-greatest-national-treasures
      Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland a token one each.
      Makes yer ‘umble, ever so ‘umble!

    420. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood and Welsh Sion ……

      Thanks for the updates. A real help. I’ll read through Hansard and check out the additional links later. The “fragility” has worn off now Legerwood, lol, now back to normality if there is such a thing during these times!

    421. geeo says:

      Great post, Heart of Galloway.

      We really have to question the motives of those who want to make an obvious tactical error.

      Thankfully, we have a leadership not obliged to make such obvious mistakes on behalf of the modern day equivalence of those quoted church leaders at Dunbar.
      ……

      So easily spotted on here, if these are the best defenders of the union, it is already lost and they just encourage us further.

    422. sassenach says:

      O/T

      Sadly, I watched some ‘Politics today’ this week and, on 3 separate days, there was Ross Thompson (our beloved ‘handy’ Tory MP), spouting forth for Jo Coburn.
      Is this the BBC preparing us for Boris’ right hand(!) man as their go-to for news with a Scottish accent? Kill me now.

    423. Confused says:

      if you’ve ever been tempted by THE FRACKING – and thought – mibbes there’s something good in it, for the economy, jobs, ugh, “energy independence”, and the environmental damage is over-stated …

      you should check out the latest MAX KEISER on RT or youtube

      – he totally destroys it, the insanity of it all almost sending him crazy too; it is at its heart an economically worthless scam, simply to allow bankers to keep issuing loans, selling debt, selling bonds, pumping stocks, sure in the knowledge these will all become worthless but similarly secure in the knowledge the taxpayers will simply be forced to do another bailout. It is beyond cynical, it is gleefully malicious – it is profiteering, grifting and class warfare, all rolled into one.

    424. geeo says:

      “New migrants to be tracked by digital IDs post-Brexit, leaked Home Office documents reveal”

      http://archive.is/jshwB
      ……….

      Hmm. Now, leaving aside the whole general, previously rejected ID card fiasco from years gone by, and the fact that Scotland will be gone by the time this is enabled, one could argue, from a Scottish perspective, that this move, if implemented, means that the WM gov has no more excuses/reasons, for not devolving immigration to Scotland.

      Perhaps it would be a fun exercise for an SNP MP to raise this point at Parliament (PMQ’s) ?

      Just to watch bumbling boris splutter a refusal to ever consider doing such a thing.

      Highighting again, how it would be better if Scotland became independent and TOOK control of ALL powers, including immigration policy .

    425. Calum McKay says:

      @ Heart of Galloway & others

      A general strike and withdrawal of cooperation by Scotland to uk governance!

      Fight dirty and have one objective in mind – independence!

    426. Welsh Sion says:

      Ottomanboi @ 3.27 pm.

      Could’ve been worse I s’pose – and one *between* us (SCO, WAL and NI).

      Noted from the Press Release however that 3 out of the 4 highlighted therein are in the Great Wen of the Imperial Capital – Big Ben, British Museum and St Pauls.

      Shurely shome mishtake – not.

    427. Essexexile says:

      @Heart of Galloway at 3.25pm
      It’s a salient lesson from the past and the similarities to Scotland’s current political tensions with our neighbours are striking.
      If I remember rightly General Leslie’s officers became embroiled in a debate about trans politics and self ID which threatened to split his forces, although it’s a long time since I was taught Scottish history and my memory isn’t what it was.

    428. Republicofscotland says:

      Colonel Ruth Davidson, and her motley MP’s sell out Scotland for the umpteenth time.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17775638.scottish-tories-make-pledge-loyalty-boris-johnson/

    429. bjsalba says:

      O/T

      Folks might find this interesting

      https://theintercept.com/2019/07/17/kellyanne-conway-irish-fred-trump/

      That’s because the president’s father, Fred Trump, was one of seven men arrested in 1927 at a Memorial Day parade in Queens, where 1,000 robed members of the Ku Klux Klan rioted when the Irish-American-led police force tried to prevent them from marching.

      A chip off the old block, perhaps.

    430. Alabaman says:

      Stew’s hell of a quiet, what’s he up to I wonder?.

    431. Heart of Galloway says:

      One thing I omitted to say in my post above: at Dunbar the whole tide of Scottish and English history turned.

      So it will be with IndyRef 2.

      To win we need four attributes: unity, commitment, conviction and discipline.

    432. Legerwood says:

      Welsh Sion @ 2.16 pm and Petra @ 3.50 pm

      Thank you WS for the additional links. Some of the Act make for fascinating reading if you can manage auld Scots eg Fisheries Act 1705. I also had a quick look at the lists of Acts during each reign eg during the reign of James I the Scots Parliament passed a Football Act in 1424.

      Could not find the text for it. Many of the earliest Acts don’t seem to be digitised or only exist in part but it does underscore Scotland’s long footballing history. I wonder who was the James Kelly of that time?

    433. gus1940 says:

      Re Fluffy’s shiny new Unionist Hub in Edinburgh could the council not rename the street where it is located – something along the lines of Independence. Freedom, Bruce or Wallace.

      The Scottish Gov HQ at Leith Docks could also be renamed appropriately.

    434. Clapper57 says:

      Gordon Brown…Think Tank…personally I THINK it will TANK.

      Ruth tried a TANK but unfortunately she did not THINK it through and now she is a TANK Commander whose troops have gone AWOL cause they now THINK tis more important to THINK about themselves than the voters who elected them….I’m sure that come next GE their votes will surely TANK.

      Ruth and Gordo’s use of TANKS to try to outmaneuver the SNPBAD party is I THINK a crude and obvious excuse to weaponise their failing case to preserve the Union….a Union that will TANK ….T(h)ANKS very much to those who did not and will never THINK about any part of their precious Union other than the dominant part.

      Ruth rides high on a TANK to let us all THINK that she is powerful and strong …..but I THINK the TANK she rode, like her politics, was firing blanks.

      Gordo will run his THINK TANK to try and show us that he is still politically relevant…but I THINK we all know Gordo’s TANK is merely camouflage for another pro Unionist outfit…he’ll need more resources in his TANK armoury to convince anyone to THINK it is anything other than yet another BT propaganda regimented by Major Brown…the feckless fighter who once fought a dirty campaign with no medal to show for it…I THINK his new THINK TANK is another attempt to try and gain the ultimate Unionist seal of approval…arise Sir Gordo Broon…and T(h)ANK you very much.

      So many THINK TANKS these days and yet none of them seem to stop and THINK that perhaps the public cares not a jot about their opinions and recommendations as so many of these so called THINK TANKS are so blatantly politically aligned to specific parties or specific political ideologies.

      Gordo’s TANK will go the same way as Ruth’s TANK…it will run out of tracks because it is not a vehicle that is intended to unite or indeed driven to promote peace… but tis one to crush the opposition….and I THINK we all see it coming long before it’s even started it’s journey ….and he will not mobilise many Scots now….I THINK that campaign has well and truly run out of gas….now that’s fuel (food) for thought…well worth adding into your THINK TANK Gordon….no matter how much fire power you THINK you have we now clearly see you as someone so desperate to be significant that , like the proverbial bad penny, you once again turn up, uninvited and unwanted, to announce the creation of the very type of organisation that most intelligent people see as fueled and driven solely to promote it’s own respective bias and propaganda….this time I THINK this is a battle you will not win….with a little help from Boris and Nigel et al you I THINK you will TANK…..T(h)ANKS anyway…for nothing !

    435. A C Bruce says:

      After the vote in the HoC it’s looking much more likely that MPs can stop a No Deal Brexit.

      Sorry, can’t archive from my ipad.

      https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/18/first-blood-parliament-blocks-boris-johnson-s-plan-to-sideli

    436. hackalumpoff says:

      New page for Nana’s links. Many thanks to @scotrenewables for setting this up so quickly .

      Hope this link works

      https://indyref2.space/nanas-links/

    437. call me dave says:

      @hackalumpoff

      Thanks for that new link:

      Well done to all involved. 🙂

    438. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ hackalumpoff, aye nicely done ScotsRenewables

      All of Nana’s excellent links at one touch or a click

      Now we have the links, be sure to pop by and say hi aye 😉

      https://indyref2.space/nanas-links/

      This is a good idea

    439. Legerwood says:

      NASA’s links. Hurrah, hurrah, hurrah.
      …..

      Mr Peffers, hope all goes well when you get your op(s) in the meantime take care.

    440. Marie Clark says:

      hackalumpoff @ 5.45, Yes link works fine. I can see that I’m going to be busy for a while catching up with it all.

      Love to Nana, we all miss her here on wings. Hope that she is well.

    441. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Heart of Galloway @ 15:25,

      Your basic point is fair enough, but references to ancient history are often only superficially convincing, and don’t bear much examining. By your own reckoning, in that particular situation the Scots had already established an effective military squeeze, so had a distinct advantage in doing nothing. (Rather like the “no-dealers” in WM, who don’t need to prorogue anything, they can just let things drag on ineffectually over Halloween and the default no-deal exit happens automatically. It’s only the “May-dealers” and “EURef2-holdouts” who have a problem. But I digress.)

      This is the crux of the analysis here. What default command-and-control does Scotland actually have at the moment? Well, =ahem=… none whatever. If we don’t actively do something on our own account by Halloween, we’ll be sucked into the same BritNat no-deal black hole as everyone else! We don’t currently have any effective advantage to lose. Our opponents are the ones making all the action (for better or ill).

      Furthermore, if complacency extends to cheerfuly accepting Brexit to be visited upon us by our London “masters” regardless, what signal of “supremacy” does that send to potential supporters? Any such apparent reliance on external events over which we have no control whatsoever only undermines our standing, and clearly identifies to all-and-sundry that we are not in fact operating from a position of natural strength.

      This damned petitionary “optic”. Which grates – with some of us at least.

      Having said all that, I don’t disagree that now is not the time (to coin a phrase =grin=), since the Tory Party is currently tearing itself apart in the full media spotlight, and there’s not a peep from Labour (who have their own internal problems) except another pathetic grumble from the sidelines from that sad old antediluvian has-been, Gordo Vow-Brown.

      Besides, ordinary people are now enjoying the happy distractions of the summer, and unlike us on here, are not troubling themselves too much over more-weighty matters right now. But as summer fades into autumn, things will surely change. We are hoping that people will finally catch up with indy as being the only viable way out, as the alternatives wither and zero hour looms ever closer. But we should make damned sure we are mentally prepared to catch – and positively amplify – that wave when it comes.

      Make no mistake, no amount of historical philosophising will assuage us afterwards if we fumble the Main Chance this autumn, in whatever form it presents itself. There may be a big scary =woooo= risk of acting precipitately, but don’t be fooled, there is at least as big a risk of failing to act.

      Failing to protect us adequately from what is – and make no mistake about it – by far the most disastrous UK political miscalculation in centuries, will have future political repercussions that will make old historical references pale in comparison.

    442. Clapper57 says:

      Well STV Scottish news 6pm….covered ‘Scotland’s Drug problem’ last night…tonight…and more tomorrow night.

      Funnily enough they were praising and comparing Portugal’s success against Scotland’s failing on war against drugs…unfortunately as a viewer , and a Scot, I am too dim to ascertain the distinction between Portugal ( Country) and Scotland (Country)….what could be preventing Scotland from adopting same/similar policies on drugs as Portugal ?….nope sorry …cannot think of any obstacles in Scotland’s way that could be doing this….

      BTW just to clear the above was sarcasm…in case anyone in doubt that I obviously am fully aware of the glaringly obvious distinction between Portugal an Independent country and Scotland chained to a draconian dictatorship who I am confident will ensure they continue to prevent any progress to be made by the Scottish government on this ….not when there is SNPBAD to be promoted by MSM and duplicitous Unionist politicians….they, the MSM et al, muddy the waters deliberately…or as Sarah Smith would say “conveniently” .

    443. naina tal says:

      Nana’s links:
      Just Wow!
      How am I ever going to get through all of them.

      Great to be able to access them again. Great loss for this site though?

    444. Capella says:

      Terrific hackalumpoff and Nana. Great to see a dedicated site up and running so thx to Scots Renewables too. Now we just need a few more hours in the day!

    445. Legerwood says:

      Essexexile says:
      18 July, 2019 at 4:34 pm
      @Heart of Galloway at 3.25pm
      It’s a salient lesson from the past and the similarities to Scotland’s current political tensions with our neighbours are striking.
      If I remember rightly General Leslie’s officers became embroiled in a debate about trans politics and self ID which threatened to split his forces, although it’s a long time since I was taught Scottish history and my memory isn’t what it was.””

      …………………………

      It is indeed a long time – all of 2 weeks or so. They, the sG listened to criticism, took advice and thus put things on the back burner so that they could consult more fully with the people of Scotland, who are sovereign, about what they wanted.

      Fancy that – a government listening and taking on board criticism and acting on that.

    446. Bill McLean says:

      Can’t get through to Nana’s links using the address given!

    447. Capella says:

      Interesting tweet about how the Scottish records of drug deaths are collected and so why they are higher than other countries’ who don’t count all deaths where drugs are in the system.

      If this is correct, couldn’t it be made clear by all those media outlets so keen to highlight the figures without the explanation?

      https://twitter.com/ChristineF0wler/status/1151829345058643969

    448. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi hackalumpoff.

      As you know, I’ve been a fan of Nana since the George Square days of post-indyref1 optimism. Thanks for the link to the new page.

      Just a suggestion…
      It would keep that page ‘active’ if, perhaps, Nana could post 3 links at breakfast time, then maybe another 3 around 11.45 (for lunchtime consumption), another 3 mid to late afternoon then a final handful around teatime, for onward discussion. That would allow her to enjoy the tender ministrations of hackalumpoff of an evening, without having to feel guilty about keeping a web page up-to-date.
      Jiss a suggestion. It’s all Ronnie’s fault.
      He’s a B_A_A_D influence.

    449. Benhope says:

      Last gasp winner for Dons makes it look a bit better after a poor performance.

      Anyway, keeps Stu happy and energised for the fight ahead.

    450. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T

      Here’s a surprise. The HQ of the UK’s National Lottery is in Dublin.

    451. hackalumpoff says:

      Re Nana’s links. Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I’m hoping that was not just a lucky shot LOL. We’ll try and do a page Monday to Friday. The site belongs to Scotrenewables, he assures us he doesn’t have hammers.

      @Bill McLean, apologies, it is most likely your browser, try clearing the cache and cookies.

      @BDTT Damn fine suggestion, but you know she is difficult to pin down once a day never mind 4 times! Today was just an overflow.

      More developments to come when I find the right buttons to push.

    452. Terry callachan says:

      Here is what happened when America sent a letter to Westminster in 1776 asking for them to reconsider laws that the Westminster government had introduced that were considered unfair in America

      Basically what happened was that Westminster said “ now is not the time “ whilst at the same time they made plans to send an army to quell the American revolt

      Pretty much the same as what is happening to Scotland now but instead of sending an army of soldiers they plan to send trade restrictions and increased austerity

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petition_to_the_King

    453. CameronB Brodie says:

      Those who might be placing faith in international law to protect Scotland from authoritarian English nationalism, might do well to consider the full-English Brexit will isolate Scotland further from the rule of international law. We’ll be at the full mercy of Westminster then. It is England’s Parliament, after all, and Scots have no innate human rights, apparently.

    454. Terry callachan says:

      America put together an army to fight the army Westminster had sent to quell American disquiet about new taxes foisted on Americans that would be used to bolster England’s colonial foray across the world

      https://www.geni.com/projects/American-Continental-Army/25249

    455. Dorothy Devine says:

      Oooh! Fab! Nana’s links!

      And Mr Peffers I wish you an easy operation and a speedy recovery.

    456. CameronB Brodie says:

      The political choice in Scotland is now between rational liberalism and authoritarian English nationalism. Simples.

      The identity of Brexit: A cultural psychology analysis

      Abstract

      In this paper, we propose a culturalist interpretation of the outcome of the Brexit referendum. This interpretation is grounded on the analysis of the U.K.’s cultural milieu, which is part of a more general study of the cultural milieus of several European countries. Specific to the United Kingdom, our analysis is based on a questionnaire carried out on a representative sample of U.K. respondents stratified by sociodemographic variables and geographic region (NUTS1). Responses to the questionnaire were subjected to multidimensional analysis – a combination of multiple correspondence analysis and cluster analysis.

      Findings about the multicountry analysis show how cultural milieus are characterized by five basic, embodied, affect-laden, generalized worldviews (defined as “Symbolic Universes”). Four out of five symbolic universes consist of a way of interpreting reality by a specific anchorage (i.e., the ethical norm, the institutional order, the emotional experience interpersonal bond, and the belongingness).

      One symbolic universe can be viewed as the anomic reaction to the failure of those anchorages. Focusing on Brexit, by means of a discriminant analysis, it is showed how the incidence of the symbolic universes (and of the underpinning basic dimensions of meaning within the 12 U.K. macroregions’) enables to identify differentially the macroregions with high proportion of “leave” at the Brexit referendum against those with low proportion. More specifically, the high “leave” macroregion are characterized by higher relevance of cultural forms anchored on local identity/belongingness. Findings are discussed within the wider aims of the project and its implications for a cultural psychology informed policymaking.

      5 DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION

      ….Focusing on Brexit, by means of a discriminant analysis, we have presented how the incidence of the symbolic universes (and of the underpinning basic dimensions of meaning within the 12 UK macroregions’) enables differentiation of the macroregions with a high proportion of “leave” referendum votes from those with a low proportion. More specifically, the high “leave” macroregion are characterized by higher relevance of cultural forms that are related to local identity/belongingness.

      Taken as a whole, these findings are consistent with the SCPT framework the study is grounded on. Indeed, they provide empirical evidence for the recognition that symbolic universes matter: The generalized meanings they provide help explain Leave/Remain choice in the Brexit referendum.

      It is worth highlighting the methodological and practical implications associated with this theoretical enhancement. From a methodological standpoint, findings reported in this study indicate the capacity of the SCPT cultural analysis to identify relevant aspects of the cultural milieu predictive of Brexit choices within the U.K. regional territories. From a practical standpoint, this result is relevant because it suggests that the knowledge of the incidence of the symbolic universes can be a key facet in the understanding of the electoral dynamics and more generally in people’s institutional attitudes and commitment.

      Focusing on the specific significance of the findings presented above, one can note that they are consistent with a view of the Brexit vote in terms of an identity enactment (Curtice, 2016; Kenny, 2016), rather than as a reaction to anomy. This interpretation is suggested, in particular, by the role played by the incidence of interpersonal bond and niche of belongingness – that is, the two symbolic universes characterized by the relevance of the identity network—in territorial areas with a high percentage of Leave votes as well as by the fact that the anomic symbolic universe does not play any discriminant role.

      Looking at the current political landscape in Europe after the economic crisis, it would appear that the long?standing tension between traditionalists and modernists has found new life. The conditions are ripe for another catalysing contest. The modern sensibility of individual voluntarism and independence has long struggled with growing systemic failures and internal demands for equity, and confidence in its institutions has slowly ebbed. On one side, this tension is addressed through a reaffirming of boundaries and identities, whereas on the other hand, it is answered by an expansion and overcoming of identity boundaries.

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/casp.2378

    457. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      geeo at 1.58pm

      Exactly. Andrew Wilson and lesley Riddoch both had extremely good articles in today’s National and it had an absolutely first class front page which dominated the newstands. Alyn Smith was very intersting about the new first ever female president of the EU and every page of the paper had telling reports over a wide range of issues. The daily four pages of readers@ letters (The National Conversation)is the most vibrant debate in Scotland.

      As an aside the “Scotland’s drug deaths” attack on the Scottish Government by the unionist media has seriously back-fired.

    458. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ledgerwood, re football act of 1424 if i remember correctly that was an act outlawing football as the lieges were playing football instead of practising their Archery.

    459. Legerwood says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      18 July, 2019 at 7:16 pm
      Those who might be placing faith in international law to protect Scotland from authoritarian English nationalism, might do well to consider the full-English Brexit will isolate Scotland further from the rule of international law.””
      ……………..

      Which is exactly why Ms Sturgeon has spent so much time and effort making friends and influencing people on her travels to the US, including the UN, to Dublin, to the North Atlantic countries and above all to Europe.

      Unlike the first referendum she, and her ministers, have put in solid work making sure leading members in these places know what the Scottish Government is about and what the drive for independence is about.

      Difficult, nigh impossible, to characterise the SNP/SG in crude ‘nationalist’ terms after those visits.

      Why else do you think the green ink brigade go doolally everytime she steps out of the Country? They know what she is doing, building a reserve of goodwill towards Scotland and building their knowledge base about Scotland and it aspirations.

      Belatedly the UK Government has cottoned on to this. Why else withdraw consular support for her trips.

    460. galamcennalath says:

      If there is a ‘no deal’ Brexit, there will need to be a concerted effort from Scotland to make sure WM and the Tories take the blame for the chaos. This is essential and needs preparation because WM and the Tories, and their loyal media, will set out to blame the EU.

      The EU will be blamed for bullying, intransigence, unreasonable negotiations, disrespecting England, and all manner of crimes. No one in London will want the blame, it will all be Brussels’ fault.

      This BritNat message must NOT gain traction in Scotland. The alternative message that it’s all WM”s fault needs to be hammered relentlessly.

    461. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legerwood
      Indeed, the first indyref was kind of ahead of scheduled and I don’t think all the ducks were properly in line. It was still a good effort and didn’t close the door to further democratisation. The next one will be an entirely different affair, with our side on a much firmer footing. That’s my reading of things from the sidelines, and my hope.

    462. Legerwood says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      18 July, 2019 at 8:01 pm
      Ledgerwood, re football act of 1424 if i remember correctly that was an act outlawing football as the lieges were playing football instead of practising their Archery.””
      …………

      Thank you for the info. Have to say it – the act – does not seem to have worked though.

    463. ScotsRenewables says:

      naina tal says:
      18 July, 2019 at 6:19 pm
      Nana’s links:
      Just Wow!
      How am I ever going to get through all of them.

      Great to be able to access them again. Great loss for this site though?

      It’s not going to do Wings’ views any harm, surely? Just one less hassle for Stu’s moderation queue . . .

      Pro-indy sites should not be competing, they should be complementary.

      https://indyref2.space/nanas-links/

    464. Legerwood says:

      CameronB Brodie at 8:09 pm

      Agree. I don’t think people realise, or want to acknowledge, just how much groundwork the SNP/SG has put in in preparation for indyref2. It certainly won’t be a straight re-run of the first one which successfully increased support for independence but not enough to get it over the line unfortunately.

    465. Clapper57 says:

      Please check out – YesWeCan twitter account…currently first tweet breaks down how Scotland is one of few nations to record drugs death differently from others.

      This would account for disparity in figures v population between Scotland and Rest of UK…obviously this info NOT available to media or they would have highlighted this…or rather conveniently omit.

      Mind was blown at figures I heard yesterday re this and seemed to be excessive……but now having read the above twitter a/c’s tweet breaking down what IS included I am not surprised rest of UK does NOT use this method…they prefer obscurity to transparency.

      Apologies if someone else has already noted this.

    466. Petra says:

      Nana’s links ……… BRILLIANT. And a great big thank you to Scottish Renewables for making it possible XX

      I’ve just had a relative visit with her two beautiful pups. One housetrained (seemingly), the other not. Spent most of the time in the garden to cut back on pee pee … poo poo issues, however the wee guy pooed in the garden and then rolled on it. The older dog, 9 months old, then peed on my suite cover. Had to bath wee guy and now washing covers etc. I’ll get round to reading Hansard, Scots Law and Nana’s links ……. eventually!!

    467. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Have just tweeted link to Nana’s new pad.

      Excellent!

      😉

    468. Abulhaq says:

      Drug policy another area in which Scots cannot be trusted.
      https://www.itv.com/news/2019-05-05/drugs-policy-should-be-amended-or-devolved-to-scotland-mps-told/
      More evidence that devolution is a smoke and mirrors scam

    469. Dr Jim says:

      Does anyone know what the FM is doing today or yesterday or the day before

      Missing for two and a half days, not a peep, not a tweet, nada, last seen 15th July lunchtime

      She normally tells us where she is and what she’s doing daily
      and she doesn’t do pretend walking tours in places

    470. call me dave says:

      Brexit: Scheme to block no deal ‘could involve Queen’

      http://archive.is/OKwSU

      PS:
      Jings! Killie (Hib-eeing it) 🙁

      Leaving the EU in a few minutes…maybees!

    471. Bill McLean says:

      Hackalumpoff at 0708. Thanks, got it now – Excellent!

    472. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT just watched a wonderful programme on BBBC ALBA – an absolute joy.

    473. Terry callachan says:

      Here we have one news report after another from BBC
      where they present the story as being a UK or british story about failings of one sort or another

      But closer scrutiny uncovers the fact that none of the problems described involve Scotland
      But BBC misleadingly infer that these problems are every part of the UK

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/07/18/all-those-times-when-the-bbc-tory-alliance-could-not-happily-drool-as-they-have-done-with-scotlands-drug-deaths/

    474. Fireproofjim says:

      Legerwood
      The act of March 1457 said that “The football and the golf be utterly cryit doon and nocht played.”
      This was because of the neglect of weapon practice.

    475. Robert Louis says:

      Call me dave at 923pm,

      Although she supposedly never gets involved (aside from interfering in indyref1), at the end of the day, Boiris the clown would be her Prime Minister. It is HER government that would be formed.

      Bottom line is that Westminster is a parliamentary democracy, with the emphasis on parliamentary, and usurping that by breaking convention (as Boris the clown says he might suspend parliament, in order to defy its will), means that extraordinary steps might be needed. I think I read recently, that the Queen did once sack HER Prime minister in Australia.

      The last time a monarch dismissed the Prime Minister in the UK, was apparently in 1834, by King william IV, using the monarch’s ‘reserve powers’.

      and it was lizzie windsor who appointed the Prime Minister of the UK personally in 1963.

      So, whilst rare, the archaic system in the UK does allow for such action.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_power

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

    476. Welsh Sion says:

      Legerwood and Petra.

      This list is only a partial catalogue of acts that remained on the statute books even after the Union of 1707. For a largely comprehensive edition of Scottish Acts of Parliament see Acts of the Parliaments of Scotland, ed. Thomas Thomson. A new edition is currently being edited by the Scottish Parliament Project at the University of St Andrews and will be available online soon.

      https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Portal:Acts_of_the_Pre-Union_Parliament_of_Scotland

    477. Hamish100 says:

      Dr Jim
      Ooooh where the FM? I haven’t heard anything for 2 days… help! We’re doomed I tell ye.

      I think doc you are just Mixing it.

      Why don’t you email Snp & ask. Of course if you are not an SNP member you might be told to go away.

      Still nice to see you are so concerned over such triviality.

      Please watch Westminster, the Tories and labour tear themselves apart. A new Brexit PM next week. Why interrupt a perpetual wake.

    478. mike cassidy says:

      Welsh Sion

      A Football Act in 1424!

      I’m not sure I want to know what that was about.

    479. geeo says:

      @hamish 100

      I fear you mis-interpret Dr Jim’s post, rather.

      It read to me as a gentle jibe, at the weary willies who fret on her ever supposed, non action.

      Of course, if I am wrong…Dr Jim, yer an arse 😉

    480. scunner says:

      Just had a disagreement with my better half regarding this evening’s dangerous dogs piece on BBC and ITV news.

      Seems a scrutinising committee headed by Jenny Marra thinks the SNP are inept (there’s a surprise). This time due to dangerous dog legislation not being enforced, cue horrific tales of children being mauled/killed. Tugging at the heartstrings stuff.

      Wife was convinced this was active parliament stuff, genuine media concern, I’m adamant it’s a committee headed by a Yoon weaponising tragedy (tinfoil hat firmly on).

      My opinion of the opposition parties and their compliant media has me unsure what is genuine concern (i.e. wtf are the SNP doing NOT enforcing such legislation) and the likes of Marra stirring for pure political gain.

    481. Heart of Galloway says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 6.11.

      Who mentioned doing nothing? I alluded to the danger of taking action TOO SOON and the need for patience while “the nasty party” and its Ukanian allies froth at the mouth.

      Witness the last 24 hours: we have had Gordon Brown climb out of his crypt to unveil his latest UKOK mutant and nearly 50 Tory MPs rebelling to prevent BoJo suspending the London parliament for his own ends.

      The latter increases the chances of Johnson gambling all on a snap election The great charlatan’s character does not lend itself to tiptoeing round the edges of a baw-hair majority which only exists at the whim of DUP neandertals anyway.

      He will fancy his chances of hoovering up the Brexit Party vote on the promise of October 31 Brexit no matter what the cost. Naturally, Scotland will be an annoying appendage to be speedily assimilated with the connivance of assorted pet Jocks.

      There are other less likely scenarios which I can’t be a@sed going through because everything comes down to one solitary issue – and that’s whether the mass indy movement trusts the SNP to deliver on IndyRef 2.

      That many have serious misgivings is to state the obvious. And yes, RJS, all the “it’s no fair” petitioning of the court of English disdain sticks in my craw also.

      But the consensus in our international brigades for indy remains one of remarkable stoicism, sustained by an unshakeable belief that the mother of all masterstrokes is being readied behind the scenes.

      Such a move I believe must involve the EU. It would come into play on the cusp of Brexit, deal or no deal, founded on a lifeline to EU membership thrown out well in advance.

      Ian Blackford has not repeatedly stated that “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against its will” for nothing.

      It is that affirmation of ultimate authority resting with the Scottish people to decide on EU membership, on holding IndyRef2, on EVERYTHING which sustains SNP support, the yes campaign and trust in Nicola Sturgeon.

    482. Dr Jim says:

      @Hamish 100 11:04pm

      The difficulty with the speed reader’s approach to words is misinterpretation due to the desire to quickly insult the words they thought they read in haste to rewrite them as reductio ad absurdum revealing more about the respondant than the original writer

      @geeo worked that out immediately and he doesn’t know me but we have conversed on occasion, perhaps that’s an advantageous insight on his part or he just reads better

      FYI a party member and I do know where the FM is, and I certainly wouldn’t refer to Scotland’s FM as a trivial matter seeing as she’s the only politician in the British Isles who’s actually on our side, you can watch Westminster till you’re blue in the face but there isn’t a dog’s chance in hell you can do anything about what happens there except observe them behaving more irrationally by the day, and looking at them doing it won’t help

      I’m not the enemy, insult them not me

    483. Hamish100 says:

      As wearie as them that keep jibing the FM

    484. Still Positive says:

      Happy birthday Nicola. xx

    485. Dr Jim says:

      @Still Positive

      First in, beat me to it

    486. Still Positive says:

      Nae worries Dr Jim. I’m sure we all wish her well.

    487. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Heart of Galloway @ 23:49,

      We clearly agree about the necessity for good timing, but my point was more about being wary of analogies from history, and also the importance of having popular confidence in a willingness to act. The concern in the latter case being that segment of the SNP and wider indy movement who don’t want to engage at all, it seems, until they have (somehow?) a cast-iron guarantee of success. Accompanied as it inevitably is by an apparent indifference to Brexit.

      Which is not your position, I think, but the distinction does tend to get blurred by delayers who hide behind “timing” instead of coming out straight and making their real position clear.

      I’m nervous in these uncertain times, as we all are I suppose, but my own feeling is that we will have a showdown this coming October, so comments like Alyn Smith’s in today’s (Thu) article in The National about a further extension to the Brexit negotiating period “being something we need” =’sakes!= do make me worried about the level of preparedness among some at least. I would also eg. like to see the Referendum Bill in place right after the summer recess, not next year sometime or whenever.

      Now it’s perfectly possible that the higher-ups in the SNP have a far better grasp of the likely developments than little ole me, and besides there is the possibility of misdirection, I suppose, but I for one would appreciate greater assurance that Nicola & Co do intend to deliver on their longstanding promise to give us a choice on our future while it still matters.

      Oh, and as a PS, long before it became a public truism, I used to make an analogy between Brexit and Suez. Apropos of some postings upthread, I have come to believe that Brexit is a monumental blunder on the scale of London’s catastrophic mishandling of the American colonies. In that respect the Tories have evidently learnt nothing whatever from history.

    488. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 02:47,

      Oh, and watching an absurd procession of exceptionalist posturing Tory government idiots intermingled with level-headed straight-talking EU reps on that programme about Brexit on telly yesterday (Thu) has convinced me even more – if that were possible – that the sooner we are free of London’s indifferent self-centred clutches the better. (Preferably sometime later today! =grin=)

      One solitary passing mention of Scotland being our only-too-typical meagre consideration in that chilling exposé.

    489. Graeme J McAllan says:

      Martin, they’re happily sending us all down the swanny, and glad they can blame the EU – they’re a bunch of absolute rotters – sorry for the language 🙁

    490. Socrates MacSporran says:

      All this talk of Boris calling a snap election – how?

      The Tories cannot simply call it, thanks to the Fixed Term Parliament Act. It needs Jeremy Corbyn to call for a No Confidence Vote – and for enough MPs to support this to get it through the House.

      This will require enough Labour MPs to think beyond the immediate embarrassment factor of winning the NC vote, and to think – can we win the General Election?

      It will given the current arithmetical state of the House, require enough Tories to: 1. Vote with BoJo, who actually wants to lose the NC vote. Do this with the confidence, I will be retained as the Tory candidate for the GE, and, I will be returned as the MP. Again the arithmetic in a few cases, does not perhaps add up.

      We are definitely living in interesting times.

    491. schrodingers cat says:

      what happens next?

      bojo will win and become the next pm, a ge will surely follow, all that remains with this issue is how this is brought about, (see alex salmonds take on the last time this happened in 2017) the tories and labour will have a vested interest in gaining as much capital as possible from the events that transpire to make this happen. eg, bojo will want to blame corbyn for thwarting the will of the people etc.

      but it will happen.



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