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Wings Over Scotland

Little red dots

Posted on March 28, 2019 by

Last night’s farce in the House Of Commons, where MPs rejected in turn every single possible Brexit option and variant thereof, perfectly encapsulated the ridiculous state of British politics and may well have scuppered any chance of avoiding a no-deal Brexit, because the EU’s terms for a longer Article 50 extension than April 12 were that the UK presented a clear and achievable plan.

But who ultimately sank the plans for either a softer Brexit or a second referendum?


If the 27 Labour MPs who voted against Labour MP Margaret Beckett’s amendment calling for a second referendum had voted for it, it would have won (exactly reversing the numbers from a 268-295 defeat to a 295-268 win).

if the 12 Labour MPs who voted against Ken Clarke’s “soft Brexit” customs-union amendment had voted for it, or even just abstained – as the SNP, Plaid Cymru and Lib Dems did because it didn’t protect EU citizens’ rights – it would have won by either 276-260 or 264-260.

10 MPs from the supposedly pro-Europe Independent Group, most of whom were formerly Labour, also voted against it, and could separately also have reversed the result by either voting for or abstaining.

(22 Labour MPs also voted against SNP MP Joanna Cherry’s motion to revoke Article 50 as a last-resort option if no deal could be agreed, but it lost by 109 anyway.)

Let history record that the Labour Party could have stopped a no-deal Brexit if it wanted to, readers. That it chose not to is something for which it will have to answer to future generations as well as this one.

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    1. 28 03 19 09:57

      Little red dots | speymouth

    549 to “Little red dots”

    1. manandboy says:

      Welcome home, Stu.

      Labour refusing to launch the lifeboat. May they themselves go under as a political force.

    2. Fraser Reid says:

      Welcome back!

      Well….Labour……not sure why they still exist – no point really…..

    3. John Lamb says:

      The tory party is split. The labour party is split. The only decision they can make is to make no decision. Oh dear!

    4. Macart says:

      Yes. Yes it will.

      Also – Do you see what happens when you leave for five minutes? 😯

      Welcome back Rev.

    5. James Utterson says:

      One thing to bear in mind is that most of the Govt’s payroll MPs abstained on these votes, and, if push comes to shove, will likely vote against both of these if voted upon again. This is not to admonish Labour in any way, who are an absolute joke when it comes to their ‘position’ on Brexit. However, nobody should assume that the closeness of the results mean they are likely to pass on a second vote.

    6. DaveM says:

      Hang on. What’s more obvious than that, Rev, is that the SNP and Plaid appear to have abstained on the Clarke amendment. Customs Union membership is SNP policy, as far as I can tell. That’s a bizarre thing to have done under the circumstances.

    7. Sharny Dubs says:

      Not only will Labour have to pay for a no deal Brexit but the rest of the country will to, hell mend them

    8. Jamero66 says:

      We keep hearing about the DUP as the King Makers in the Brexit process, but Labour have much more power and are choosing – by default – to support a hard Brexit on the 12th April 2019 and be in no doubt when the preverbial hits the fan the media will hammer them for it. A win win for us as we have Independence.

    9. Capella says:

      But, of course, the Labour spin machine will whirr into gear and blame the SNP for failing to support a customs union option. The fact that the SNP have ruled out CU withou SM all along won’t deter them.

    10. Jamero66 says:

      DaveM 28 March, 2019 at 8:21 am
      A Customs Union combined with the Single Market is SNP policy. One without the other is useless.

    11. ScottieDog says:

      CU plus SM was the SNP plan.

    12. David says:

      So if Clark amendment can somehow include workers rights concessions by Monday does that bring SNP on board? Do others walk away from it if it can do that?

    13. Gizzit says:

      But how many Labour MPs abstained on the Cherry amendment as “recommended” by the Labor whips?

      It beggars belief that as unthinkable as no-deal is, so many refused to guarantee it doesn’t happen.

      …and don’t get me started on the Scottish Tory voting record.

    14. Jim says:


      “or even just abstained, as the SNP did because it didn’t protect the rights of EU citizens”

    15. Auld Rock says:

      Come on Guy’s it’s not all bad, they were at least polite, almost civil to each other, most of the time, and didn’t you feel the slight movement in the tectonic plates, they used paper voting slips. Maybe this is the first sign of a major earthquake in Westminster, electronic voting, hand held voting units have been around for years and in regular use in Game Shows where audience voting takes place.

    16. HYUFD says:

      It is possible permanent Customs Union or even EUref2 could get a majority on Monday when the Commons votes again on Brexit options with preferences and the least popular options eliminated under the Letwin plan. The EU have also said provided the UK contests the EU Parliament elections there can be a lengthy extension and Westminster would likely vote to contest those elections over No Deal

    17. Proud Cybernat says:

      The SNP’s Revoke A50 motion lost by 109 votes but let it be known that 110 Labour MPs abstained.

    18. yesindyref2 says:

      What are you doing here? Aren’t you supposed to me in Edinburgh seeing a man about a dug?

    19. bobajock says:

      As Joanna Cherry said …

      Fucking Labour.

    20. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…the SNP and Plaid appear to have abstained on the Clarke amendment. Customs Union membership is SNP policy, as far as I can tell. That’s a bizarre thing to have done under the circumstances.”

      Nicola Sturgeon

      The first preference of @theSNP has always been to stop Brexit. If that’s not possible – and until relatively recently it seemed it wasn’t – we’d opt for soft Brexit over hard. But stopping Brexit is possible now and we voted tonight to give that the best chance.

    21. DaveM says:

      Thanks for the clarification. I hadn’t had my coffee yet 🙂

    22. Colin Alexander says:

      Well done, SNP MPs Wishart and MacNeill for abstaining in the “People’s Vote” amendment.

      If there’s a General Election the SNP must seek a straight mandate that the Scottish Parliament represents the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      In other words, the Treaty of Union and Scotland Act are void, deid, finished.

    23. Bob Mack says:

      I think some things are obvious from last night’s voting.
      We are leaving the EU. Too many MPS are worried by repercussions from their constituency voters to do anything else. It is a well paid job after all.

      They are trying to find a balance between that and leaving with something, which is nigh impossible.

      Unable to offer a referendum because it would mean Scotland could rightfully do the same for independence and they need our resources, and fearing to hold an election where there would be no guaranteed majority due to the Brexit division in the population.

      They are mice on a hamster wheel, peddling furiously but getting nowhere. A no deal scenario is now the most likely outcome.

      The only chance is Berrow allowing Mrs May’s deal to be presented again, which at the Nth hour may gain a majority.

      Interesting times.

    24. Clydebuilt says:

      Rev. All the best for the court case!


      Radio Scotland 8am a patient Jo. Cameron has been found to have a genetic mutation where she feels no pain. We were told she comes from Inverness. Heard a short clip the lady has an English accent)

      Radio 4 about 8.10am same patient we are told she cames from Salford.

    25. Ottomanboi says:

      Plainly Ukania cannot make up its mind. Crash out looms. It’s what the EU expects and is prepared for. The Brits, as usual, are phlegmatically unprepared.
      In Scottish parliamentary elections rejoining EU as a sovereign state must be the paramount theme. England out, Scotland in, best deal all round. Good riddance to 300 years of socio-cultural bondage. Ball in our court. ‘An earrach albannach’ begins, or not

    26. Jamero66 says:

      Bob Mack 28 March, 2019 at 8:56 am
      Your comment is spot on.

    27. Donald anderson says:

      One Toly MP said he would rather see the Westminster sink into the Thames than stay in the EU.

      Best option.

      Best of luck in court today. A Daily Record/Dugdale win would be unthinkable.

    28. rongorongo says:

      A couple more visualisations of last nights voting:
      This one by Alexandre Fonso – which shows how MPs clustered around remain/leave patterns and this by @Instituteforgov which shows Ayes’s Nos and absentions.

    29. yesindyref2 says:

      @Donald anderson
      Sorry, in my vain attempt at humour I probably confused you – that’s the court over and the decision will be in about 4 weeks.

    30. Clootie says:

      What do Labour stand for now?

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      @Clootie “What do Labour stand for now?

      God Save The Queen?

    32. Bob Mack says:

      There is one option which I think might work. If the Speaker and Parliament would agree to allow MPS to vote on the amendments in complete anonymity.

      They are scared of repercussions from their voters or party radicals.

      I don’t think it has been done before, but hey, these are odd times. I think that would allow them to find a solution of sorts on which to build a concensus.

    33. HYUFD says:

      Ottomanboi No Tusk made quite clear yesterday if the UK voted to contest the EU Parliament elections then the EU should support a lengthy extension of Article 50. Many Holyrood polls for 2021 also now give a Unionist majority

    34. Giving Goose says:

      I can see a descent into authoritarianism wrapped up in copious union jackery.
      Something or someone is going to give very soon.

    35. Sneekyboy says:


      Are you not missing that Labour has 245 sitting MPs (after defections), 111 voted with Joanna Cherry Revoke Article 50 amendment and 22 against.

      It lost by 109 votes.

      But there were 112 Labour MPs who abstained.

      They could easily have ensured that the default to getting no agreement on a deal is remaining in the EU as per now.

    36. galamcennalath says:

      As I pointed out last night on the previous thread, SNP policy on Brexit is Revocation with a fall back compromise of customs union AND full single market membership.

      NONE of the leave options on the table for discussion at WM fall inside the SNP’s fundamental red line. As far as I can see no one is even considering full single market membership!

      The SNP backed two only options – a confirmatory EURef2 and commitment to revocation if no other option is agreed. All other options were irrelevant to the positions of Scottish Government and Parliament.

      Several people hear appear to believe customs union alone might be adequate. Turkey is in customs union.–Turkey_Customs_Union

      Very few people in Scotland want that sort of arrangement between us and the EU.

      BritNats will be well aware that the only option being considered at WM which would prevent a short term IndyRef2 is revocation. That is certainly pissing in their beer.

    37. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:

      fearing to hold an election where there would be no guaranteed majority due to the Brexit division in the population.


      while there is never a guarentee, the fptp system allows for majorities of mps for parties who dont have a majority of the vote. indeed, this is the norm, not the exception. hung parlaiments are rare and the most likely out come of an election would be a majority for someone. on latest polling figures it would be tory

    38. Skip_NC says:

      Ian Blackford said it best in his point of order last night There is no majority for anything. Each party now has an obligation to state unequivocally where they stand and let a general election decide who will legislate the next steps.

    39. schrodingers cat says:

      HYUFD says:
      Many Holyrood polls for 2021 also now give a Unionist majority


      if that is what the polls say nearer the time, we will simply stand cardboard cutouts under a yes banner which will keep out the unionists forever. 🙂

      with ruthie relagated to the cheap seats up at the back, we would stick the cardboard cutout of ronald macdonald in front of her.

      the opportunity for photo bombing the unionists would be endless

    40. schrodingers cat says:

      Renee Slater, 64, had gone on trial after putting forward dressmaker’s dummy Helena Torry as a candidate.

      As Helena’s election agent, Slater put her name on the nomination papers and hand-delivered them to the returning officer.

      The dummy was registered to stand as a voice for the “silent majority” and the equality of citizens in last May’s Aberdeen City Council election.

      Police charged Slater under the Representation of People Act 1983 and the dummy was seized and taken into custody. But yesterday, she was cleared after Gregor Kelly, defending, argued the charge related to parliamentary elections and local government elections in England and Wales.

      Sheriff Peter Hammond agreed and ruled there was no case to answer.


    41. Dr Jim says:

      If the first duty of every government is to protect the people then it’s kinda obvious they agree that in the current Brexit circumstances they can’t protect us because Brexit will be harmful in any form

      So what are the political chancers doing, well they’re protecting themselves by doing nothing so none of them has to take the hit later at the ballot box for what they did

      Why can’t they revoke the whole thing you might ask, well same thing if they do all the outraged and faux outraged pro Brexit people will hit them hard in the Ballot box at the first chance they get

      So the impasse isn’t about which type of Brexit or not, the impasse is about Tory and Labour jockeying for the least bad position for the next general election

      Scotland for the most part want’s sod all to do with this nonsense and neither does Northern Ireland yet it’s the DUP from NI who don’t even represent the wishes of the people of NI who are controlling everything and everybody on the planet knows the DUP are a bunch of nut jobs

      But how about this Scotland once again we should stand by the Westminster government in all that they do no matter how bad and just suck it up and wait for what might happen later when they decide amongst themselves what to do with Scotland because if we’re accepting that we’re worthless and useless as a country and a people and only fit to be dominated by these people why are we watching the telly and reading the newspapers to see what’s going to happen

      Because it’s not really of any importance to us in Scotland if we’ve already decided to obey anyway and what’s the point of having any government in Scotland at all in those circumstances

      The SNP can’t protect us from anybody if the people of Scotland don’t want protected, you can’t keep asking them to go to a gunfight with a bagpipe then when they lose say it’s their fault

      It’s Scotland’s fault, keep it up losers

    42. frogesque says:


      Last poll I looked at gave SNP 57 seats for a GE and unionist wipe out for Holyrood.

      But then you are talking from an English UK perspective where anything Scotland votes for is automatically shouted down by 10 to 1. Such a lovely Unionist dividend.

    43. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 09:56,

      Does one get the impression that there’s at least a part of the Scottish Establishment that doesn’t mind putting a genteel boot in to the Union when a suitable opportunity arises…?

      Surely not…? =grin=

    44. No Fun in being good says:

      Looking from the background, I sense nobody really knows the real reason why we are proposing to leave Europe?
      If you set the Borisismic lies, about NHS Funds being catapulted to prosperity, aside, it seems everyone has an individual reason for wanting to leave or remain? That would seem to indicate a renewed consensus, now reality has prevailed, and requires a fresh review of opinion, aka, a new Referendum?
      The Tories are fudging the clarity of intention by surreptitiously slipping-in bills and Amendments to their gain, hence, the mess it is in. Knock it on the head, for now. Lets all go to the Pub and talk about it. Again.

    45. Legerwood says:

      Clydebuilt says:
      28 March, 2019 at 8:58 am


      Radio Scotland 8am a patient Jo. Cameron has been found to have a genetic mutation where she feels no pain. We were told she comes from Inverness. Heard a short clip the lady has an English accent)

      Radio 4 about 8.10am same patient we are told she cames from Salford.””

      The lady’s inability to feel pain was first noticed when she was treated at Raigmore Hospital, Inverness, where she had previously had hip surgery then hand surgery. The latter is a particularly painful type of surgery but she did not feel any pain to any great degree.

      The consultant anaesthetist in the hospital then referred her for genetic investigations at UCL and Oxford Uni.

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      rongorongo @ 09:08,

      Thanks for those links. Brings yesterday’s events into some kind of focus. Including some confirmation of my longstanding proposition that EEA/EFTA as a putative compromise, when put to the test, fails to appeal to anyone very much.

    47. Bob Mack says:

      @Schrodingers cat,

      Nope. A cumulative total of all the polls at the end of February had Tories on average only 2 or 3 percentage points ahead of Labour. Not enough for a majority.

      I shall try to find the article which gathered together all the largest polling data.

    48. galamcennalath says:

      All Brexits are bad. But what makes a bad Brexit into an awful Brexit?

      For me, I reckon the truly awful and frightening aspect of Brexit would be where the UK is able to make its own trade deals with third countries. IMO that is where it would go totally tits up. It would almost inevitably destroy many businesses especially agriculture and food related. It would probably mean poor safety, product, and food standards. It would reduce our ability to trade our compromised products with countries (EU etc) with higher standards.

    49. Ken500 says:

      Aberdeen City Council illegal Unionist and Alliance group are illegal. There is no Unionist and Alliance Party registered or recognised under Electoral Law. They are making it up. Where does their funding come from to a Party that does not exist? They are a bunch of illegal dummies ruining the City, wasting public money and not supporting essential services. £1.2Billion of unneccessary debt. They should be put in jail if there was any justice.

      The harm that they have done. Breaking electoral Law at every occasion with impunity. They are disgusting. Another grosteque, monstrosity concrete jungle, totally out of place, being erected. Blocking the sky line. Deplorable. Another block of empty office. A total blott on the landscape. Like the disgraceful unionists dummies. Thick as muck.

      They should be taken to Court and charged under the representation of the people’s Act. Lie, lie, after lie. Wasting and squandering public money like there is no tomorrow. Fraudsters with absolute no mandate they have ruined the City. £200Million wasted on a groteque monstrosity. Office and shops sitting empty. Underoccupied hotels. No funding for essential services.

      A Conference Centre £300Million sitting empty most of the time. A white elephant with no business case. The Art Gallery shut for five years. A totally mismanaged, expensive, unaffirdable renovation. There is no funding for it.

      The unionists kept in place by a lying two job Tory. A lying LibDem who lied, resigned and declared Independent to support the illegal, lying cabel. They are a total disgrace. STV. The SNP gets most candidates and would run the City far better. The only time it was well run. An SNP/Lib administration. The only time in memory the City was run well and not in massive debt.

      The Libdems reneged this administration. People will not forget or forgive. The people wanted green and open spaces. They got a concrete jungle. £Millions mismanaged and wasted. A absolute disgrace. Breaking the Representation of the people’s Act and lying. Majority despised. They should be made to resign. People are dying because of them. These appalling unionist Parties.

    50. Ken500 says:

      There will have to be a GE. That is the only solution. To get rid of all the splitter groups etc. MP’s that are not longer credible. On one irrelevant appeal etc. Clear the decks.. Might make a break through? to some kind of consensus. What a bunch of imbecile lunatics. They could not make a bigger mess. The affect it is having on people’s lives. They are killing people they were supposed to protect. Getting away with murder.

      The only thing they are trying is to cover their own backs. Filling their boots illegally and wasting public money. While they can Leaving people starving. Disgusting individuals. Those who can do. Those who can’t join unionists political parties, especially in Scotland.

    51. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 10:36,

      Even with everything that’s currently known, one can’t say how voters would respond to the trials of an actual election. (Otherwise, why bother? =grin=) Angry Leavers in England might punish the Tories more than Labour, for example, by voting for Farage’s new rabble. Everything is so turbulent at the moment.

      But s~cat’s general proposition is surely correct, that the deliberate instability of FPTP makes arranging a drawn result in WM rather like trying to balance a pin on its point. The system is designed that way. It produces a false supremacy from a shallow minority. One that is then lauded by the media as “clear majority” or even at times “landslide win”.

      I’m not sure the SNP would benefit anyway by being drawn into some kind of “confidence & supply” arrangement with (say) Corbyn Labour, even if it became possible. Superficially tempting though it might be. There are lessons from the 1970’s to learn there.

      Better gone for good than being sucked into a WM morass from which nothing worthwhile emerges.

    52. A soft Brexit is still Brexit. Nicola Sturgeon had a in the SNP manifestos in 2016 and 2017 that if there was a material change we would have a referendum, she/SNP won a vote in Holyrood in 2017 that said the same. A triple-lock mandate. Then we get this

      What is it all about?

    53. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      What is allabout is tha the SNP is going for independence but at this point it is better to support a soft Brexit for everybody over a hard Brexit.
      I don’t findthat difficult to understand at all.

    54. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Fifty-nine. Campaign theme. If there is a General Election we are going for them all.

      Hope we have approved candidates in place

    55. I doubt if a general election would clear up this shambolic Brexit mess.

      If the Tories were to win it, it could even make it worse Depending on who ends up as prime minister.

      So would it be any better under a Corbyn coalition Government?
      Again maybe I’m just being cynical,I doubt it, I wouldn’t trust Labour an inch,if it wasn’t getting its own way.

      It would create as many difficulties as it could, for any coalition partner, particularly if its the SNP, and attempt to put responsibility for any failure in making any progress at the door of SNP MPs.

    56. Liam says:

      I think this just sums up last night’s WM mess for me:

      (A different Liam. Not me.)

    57. James Caithness

      if England leaves with a hard Brexit an Independent Scotland would have all the problems of a hard border between Scotland and England that is now being created between North and South Ireland.

      Makes more sense to have a soft brexit if any at all.

      Nicola cannot announce the start of indy ref 2 tip the UK has committed itself to a definite Brexit path which has to happened yet.

    58. Ken500 says:

      Demonstration at FM questions?

    59. Capella says:

      Looking for the BBC web report on the vote in Holyrood to cancel A50, is not easy. It is tucked away on the Scottish Politics page but when you click on the article there is only a few lines ending in “the vote is largely symbolic”. To hear the debate scroll back the live video. But there is no lie video.

      But there is a lengthy item on Kim Kardashian being a toxic person.

      FMQs now and Tory Jackson Carlaw is using the Labour meme of the bad SNP not voting for the CU. Better Together again. Labour is circulating a tweet claiming exactly the same thing.

    60. SilverDarling says:

      Jeremy Corbyn is upset about 1979 – Thatcher gave New Labour a model to work on to show them how to get into government on English votes. That is what upsets him most.

      He won’t ever get in on England’s votes so he has to use spin and lies to try to gain Scotland’s votes.

    61. Ken500 says:

      Carlaw should just be quiet. What an embarrassment. How can anyone n Scotland vote for these unionist fannies, Beyond belief.

      Who started this farce, The appalling Tories. The other unionist not far behind. The biggest ignorant, arrogant imbeciles ever been put on the planet. Dragged off the street to stand. Habitual liars. Carlaw should resign along with all the rest of them. Compulsive, greedy dangerous liars.

      May, Corbyn and Cable should resign. Cable has already steeped down. Swindon to step up. Another failure.

      Goodness FM Questions is not so boring as niormal.

      Children in poverty. Austerity.

      Illegal, wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Costs Scotland £Billions going south. Along with the rest.

      The Westminster that the unionist support. Lying imbeciles.

      Scotland would be amazingly wealthy without them.

      Independence will abolish poverty in Scotland. The unionist lying sychophants have ruined the UK and world economy. Wasting, mismanagement losers. Wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point,HS2 and Trident.

      It is the unionists councils who are not funding education. Spending monies on groteque, monstrosities non mandated and of no value. Instead of education, social care and essential services.

      Throwing people out of Scotland. Stinking Westminster policies. Damaging Scotland. Appalling losers.

    62. Cubby says:

      Comedy gold at FMQ today as Jackson Carwash tries to blame the SNP for the Brexit shambles. Tories – what a Brassneck they have – no shame or sense of embarrassment that normal people would feel if they had created the Brexit shambles at Westminster.

      All the Britnats have left are lies.

      FM says “Mays says if you don’t back me I will stay. May must be the only leader in living memory who has tried to fall on her own sword and has managed to miss.”

    63. mumsyhugs says:


      That’s a belter! 🙂 She shoots she scores!!!

    64. Ken500 says:

      People who cannot afford to pay. Do not pay Council tax. Or get rebates. People in poverty do not pay council tax. Council tax is a land tax. Taxed on what is on the land. It does not raise enough in any case for local services. Local services are maimly funded from central government. Income raise through income tax. Recognised as most fair, progressive tax, based on the ability to pay. Incremental.

      Some want to change to a national Land tax, which will not raise enough to pay for the public budget monies. No progressive. Then change to a local income tax which will not raise enough for local services. Large administration costs.

      What should be done is to stop major tax evasion. Scottish Gov does not have these powers and other powers that Scotland needs for better administration and to grow the economy. Like any other nation.

    65. HYUFD says:

      Frogesque 57 seats for the SNP in the 2021 Holyrood elections would be a loss of 6 seats from the SNP total of 63 in 2016 putting the combined Unionist parties close to if not over a majority

    66. HYUFD says:

      Indeed the latest Scottish Parliament poll of polls has the SNP short by 9 of a majority compared to being short by just 1 in 2021 suggesting the next Holyrood elections will see a clear swing against the SNP

    67. ScottieDog says:

      Now imagine such a voting system in place at WM!

    68. Ken500 says:

      Relative poverty. Absolute poverty. Poverty evaluation is quite high.

      Not having a holiday a year. Or a car. Or other balanced measures. The criteria is quite high. Some people would not have access to all the criteria but are not in absolute poverty. Some is a choice. It is in the interest of some agencies to evaluate as higher. They get more public monies and funding.

      The £5 hike is just ridiculous. It would not reach those in most need.

      In Scotland students get £30 a week to stay in higher education. Social care, bus passes, low uni fees, less children in care. Kinship payments. Support for children in care. Longer stewardship. No Council tax. Etc, etc. Low community fee. Increased public childcare. No bedroom tax.

    69. ScottieDog says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      “What is allabout is tha the SNP is going for independence but at this point it is better to support a soft Brexit for everybody over a hard Brexit.
      I don’t findthat difficult to understand at all.”

      Exactly. Hard brexit is chaos – which the spivs and speculators who have robbed the U.K. for the past 4 decades want.

    70. Gary says:

      But we already knew that Labour contained some hard line Brexiteers and some soft Brexiteers who support May’s deal.

      DUP want the Good Friday Agreement overturned and will vote against EVERYTHING that isn’t a no-deal Brexit, remember, they are going against the wishes of their own voters to do this NI voted to Remain as, for them, LEAVE is like Turkeys voting for Christmas. The problem is, DUP actually WANT a return to the Troubles and as per Craig Murray’s article on the subject, they are being incentivised to pick up their weapons again and resume murdering. Cox had advised that HMG could ditch the backstop if there was ‘social unrest’ effectively telling DUP to get their terrorist pals ‘tooled up’ to get out of the backstop after firstly securing DUPs vote for the May deal.

      There is now no way out. May has probably got her own party on board and a few Labour rebels but DUP are holding a gun to her head (they’ve had years of practise doing THAT!)

      The tail is wagging the dog once more, no Brexit is not something either Tory or Labour could actually DO and remain electable so no deal looks more like it.

      Personally I think EITHER, the backstop will include the entirelty of the UK to overcome DUPs (stated) objections OR there will be a no deal Brexit with ’emergency measures’ put in place which look a lot like May’s deal…

    71. Ken500 says:

      Manipulated Polls. Unionists try to pay to influence the vote. Illegal corrupt behaviour. Illegal donations and dark money.

      The Electoral Laws broken illegally. Unionist cheats, liars and criminal.

    72. HandandShrimp says:

      I did think that Beckett”s plan would get through. I was surprised that the hard line anti-immigrant wing of the Labour party voted against it…I mean hardly any of the FoM people that come from the EU are Jewish.

    73. Frank Gillougley says:

      Here’s a plan.

      Can Scotland just slip out the back door quietly, while they’re all still haggling over their brexit for the next ten years?

      They won’t even notice, and we can all get on with our lives.

      Ther. Sorted.

    74. K1 says:

      Obvs they are going for MV3 tomorrow, must have found some standing order/s to make this a possibility. This also scuppers the 2 step indicative votes process where the most popular of the 8 would have been whittled down and presented on Monday for them to vote on.

      Clearly they (May/gov) want to halt this process of finding a different consensus in the commons, so if she thinks she can get the DUP and Labour ‘rebels’ on board, her deal may actually have a chance and considering Bercow’s ruling, this is the last chance they get to get her deal through.

      If her deal goes through tomorrow…game on.

      May’s deal is a hard/blind Brexit, make no mistake this isn’t some ‘settled will’ of the British people crap, this is a Tory gov and party that are fighting for ‘their’ livelihoods at any cost.

    75. Ken500 says:

      The D’Hond’t fix imposed on Scotland electoral system by unionists. Leslie Evans. The London civil service fixer. To deny Scotland democracy – without a mandate. Disgraceful.

    76. Dr Jim says:

      *Journalist* Libby Brooks informing us all after FMQs that she’s spoken to loads of people in Scotland and we all just want to do Brexit now and get it over with

      Libby Brooks didn’t speak to me or anybody I know and I don’t think she’s telling the truth anyway that people are saying just bring on the pain we don’t care

      *Journalists* eh they get paid for it too

      If people didn’t buy newspapers you wouldn’t have to put up with *Journalists* telling you that you don’t know anything but Shoosh, they do so listen to meeee

    77. Meg merrilees says:
      28 March, 2019 at 11:37 am
      James Caithness

      if England leaves with a hard Brexit an Independent Scotland would have all the problems of a hard border between Scotland and England that is now being created between North and South Ireland.

      Makes more sense to have a soft brexit if any at all.

      Nicola cannot announce the start of indy ref 2 tip the UK has committed itself to a definite Brexit path which has to happened yet.
      England voted to leave/brexit, Scotland did not. NS/SNP said in manifestos (2) if Scotland was dragged out of EU against or will we will have indyref2, add to that the vote in Holyrood that NS won, that is a triple-lock mandate. Now if she/they do not honour their manifesto pledges and Holyrood vote, can they be trusted again in any future manifestos?

      Independent countries have challenges, so whether England wants a hard border or not is up to them, they would also be an independent country.

      We want Scotland to be an independent country, and with that comes challenges. Now the SNP have had to negotiate a good few years since 2007, with other parties in the Scottish Parliament, because they run minority government, and I would expect Scotland to be well able to negotiate our divorce from England. Both countries would act sensible. But at the end of the day with Scotland as part of the EU I believe we would have more of an advantage in any negotiations.

    78. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 11:37,

      As you say, Meg, and for the reasons you give, we probably all have to wait (however impatiently) until the UK has committed itself to a definite Brexit path, in order to maximise our impact with a new indy counteroffer.

      We are not obliged though to wait until it has actually happened. That would be ceding far too much initiative.

      And in the event of an extended delay, all bets are off. I wouldn’t like to keep on postponing a campaign for a couple of years, say. As Nicola herself notably said recently, lack of clariity is itself a kind of clarity.

    79. Dr Jim says:

      Siemans and Lidl are just two more German companies who have announced pulling out of the UK post Brexit

      Siemans is particular bad news for Scotland and Lidl practically doesn’t bear thinking about

    80. manandboy says:

      London registered, Labour in Scotland have, for 80 years pretended they were NOT Unionist.
      English Labour in Scotland was run just like the Mafia.
      Labour in Scotland were never Scottish Labour, but they believed that politically, Scotland belonged to them. They thought they owned Scotland.
      The England-run & controlled, Labour in Scotland merely preserved the hegemony, or dominant force, of the British Establishment, the Democratic deficit and a long reign of corruption, secrecy,lying to the electorate and grand theft.
      Labour in Scotland is just one half of the Unionist double-act with the Tories. Always have been.

      Red & Blue Tories – preying for a lifetime on the simple, the naive, the feeble minded, the gullible, the deprived classes, the undereducated, the politically illiterate, the elderly and every vulnerable group you can think of.
      And still at, except that with Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit, they have begun to fall apart, just like their friends in the Unionist Alliance, the Tories.

    81. Ken500 says:

      Without the foreign student numbers included. The Tories insist on including them
      217,000 Completely funded. An asset.

      Then 28,000 safe status people (including 8,000 asylum seekers – 1000 from Iraq). There are only 50,000 migrants from the EU and elsewhere. The Westminster incompetents are exaggerating the figures. More migrant (of the 50,000) are coming less from EU more from Asia. It is a Tory/unionist con.

      The Westminster unionist imbeciles cause the illegal,wars that are displacing people who have to move to Europe. The EU countries have to care for them at expense.(£Billions) The Westminster imbeciles who cause the problems refuse all knowledge and responsibility. They are total and absolute cowards, including Teresa May. Causing the problems, not taking any responsibilities and then blaming everyone else. A total damn hypocrite. A public disgrace. They are a world laughing stock. Uncaring cretins.

    82. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament TV.


    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 13:04,

      She is probably right, insofar as ordinary people are heartily sick of the Brexit clusterbourach, and want it over. But up here there’s more than one way to get it over with, isn’t there? =grin=

      I reckon whoever can capture the initiative now will be on to a winner. Let it be us.

    84. Dr Jim says:

      David Mundell avoided being a witness in court because he was busy abstaining on government business in the HOC

    85. Scottish Steve says:

      The UK has made itself an absolute laughingstock. May’s government be very well be the worst in British history and the behaviour of the Commons has been a complete shambles.

      Yet some Scots, or should I say loyal North Brits, will look down at the so called Mother of Parliaments and think, “oh, yes, Scotland should definitely remain under these people’s control.”

      Disgusting. The voters only have themselves to blame for this mess. They voted (and keep voting) the bastards in.

    86. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dr Jim at 1:08 pm.

      You typed,
      Siemans and Lidl are just two more German companies who have announced pulling out of the UK post Brexit

      Siemans is particular bad news for Scotland and Lidl practically doesn’t bear thinking about

      A smidgeon of false news there. What it actually says on the BBC page is,

      German companies could pull investment out of Scotland if post-Brexit trade becomes too difficult, a leading industry group has said.
      The risk was highlighted by Alexander Altmann, from the British Chambers of Commerce in Germany.
      German companies such as manufacturer Siemens and supermarket Lidl employ thousands of people in Scotland

      Then there’s this:-
      BUDGET supermarkets Aldi and Lidl are set to benefit most from Brexit, according to a new report yesterday.

      Researchers say the German discounters are in line to do better in the short and medium term from Britain’s decision to leave the EU than the other major supermarkets in the UK.


      Lidl creates new customs department to deal with Brexit

    87. Jack Murphy says:

      Dr Jim said at 1:08 pm:
      ” Siemans and Lidl are just two more German companies who have announced pulling out of the UK post Brexit

      Siemans is particular bad news for Scotland and Lidl practically doesn’t bear thinking about ”

      Here’s a link:

      BBC Scotland Business:

    88. heraldnomore says:

      Jack I don’t see that ‘quote’ anywhere in the archived article – all it says is that those two named companies employ thousands in Scotland; and that (un-named) German companies could pull out. It’s a big step to then suggest that our Lidl shopping is at risk…

    89. K1 says:

      Even if May does get her deal through tomorrow, we will still be in the EU through the transition period, so Scotland will be perfectly placed to have our indyref during this period, as we will then know ‘exactly’ what ‘this’ Breixt is.

      We would still be in the EU…literally at the same time as ‘being dragged out against out will.

    90. Cubby says:

      HYUFD is a Britnat Tory from the south of England who posts on Wings all his lies and misinformation and then clears off for a spell and then comes back again and does it all over again.

      He totally ignores all the information that disproves his lies and just rinses and repeats them. My advice is just ignore the crap that he posts. He has a colonial mindset that sees Scotland as an English possession.

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      British Labour are ideologically split and leaderless. The only thing they appear united on is their British nationalism, the contemporary form of which is an expansionist form of English nationalism. From a Scottish perspective, British Labour are every bit as colonial in outlook as the Tories. They truly are English Socialists, in the Orwellian sense.

      This sort of nonsense is a core issue.


    92. Giving Goose says:

      There is a growth industry for knee pads, I hear tell.

      Labour in Scotland buying them up to kneel to their Tory masters.

    93. mr thms says:

      If the tide has turned with regard to Withdrawal Agreement and it gets ratified, the UK will have officially left all of its EU treaties and all the treaties the EU had with other countries.

      The next phase of the WA includes a ‘transitional arrangement’ which keeps the UK in the EU until 20xx. Anything can happen.

      Westminster will be free to devolve more reserved powers to Scotland such as VAT that was not possible under the EU VAT regime.

      The transitional arrangements can also facilitate the break up of the UK and the successor countries of the UK can rejoin the EU under Article 50 part 5.

      It does not make sense for the UK to have new treaties with the EU/EFTA/EE.

      It make more sense for the countries of the UK to have their own ‘treaties’

      I wonder if some form of ‘Home Rule’ or federalism can create the same conditions for entry into the EU/EFTA/EEA as independence would?

      The voting last night fits in with a ‘blind’ Brexit’ scenario for the second phase.

      Westminster and Brussels could purposely be keeping the public in the dark over substantial changes to the constitution of the UK because they are working together on implenting the Treaty of Lisbon and the creation of a European confederation of states.

    94. defo says:

      If she gets her deal, we’re out in May.

    95. jfngw says:

      Jeremy Corbyn is upset about the Tories gaining power in 1979, he has no qualms that we currently have a Tory government because his Labour leader in Scotland was advising people to vote for the Tories if it removed a SNP MP.

      Just think without this advice he could be PM, although I’m not sure this would be any better than Theresa May.

      So much more up to date, in 2014 & 2017 Labour worked hand in hand with the Tories to enure a Conservative government remained in control of Scotland.

    96. K1 says:

      Yes defo…but we go into a transition wherein we are still in the EU until 2020ish…as phase 2 gets underway so that we are fully out by that time. Only if May gets her deal, or for that matter any deal is ratified before phase 2 can even begin.

      We are ‘totally out’ only if there is ‘no deal’.

      Happy to be corrected if I’ve not understood this properly?

    97. defo says:

      K1. TBH, I’m not sure of anything re Brexit anymore, excepting maybe it’s our way to freedom.
      Ta for the correction.

    98. jfngw says:

      @mr thms

      The eternal optimist! I see no indication of this rosy picture you paint. Quite the opposite in fact, WM taking back control. Although they may pass some functions onto the UK government in Scotland and claim it is devolved, but then it is controlled by a party that has a minority of MP’s in Scotland. That would be more like the Westminster way of governance.

    99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh dear, UK federalism rears its ugly head again. One of Gove’s sleekit Brexit promises disinterred from a forgotten grave.

      The UK can’t even deal coherently with its neighbouring major trading block from which it’s struggling confusedly to extract itself. By furiously distracting itself. What chance any likely BritNat UK government is going to use this “opportunity” to cede any of its waning power to its fissiparous constituent parts?

      Answers on a microdot please…

    100. Capella says:

      Does anyone know what the demonstration was about in Holyrood at the start of FMQs? The video record doesn’t let us see the “green flag” that was apparently hung from the balcony.

    101. CameronB Brodie says:

      mr thms
      How likely is it that a Eurosceptic Tory party is conspiring with the EU, in a corporatist plot against the interests of open democracy and national sovereignty?

      Ideology and political theory

    102. jfngw says:

      Jeremy Corbyn reminds us that although he is adamant that the vote in the EU referendum is upheld he had no problem with Labour ignoring the 1979 vote for a Scottish assembly (and he was a lot older than eight then).

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one that might help folk understand what is happening to British politics.

      The thin ideology of populism


      The concept of populism has in recent years inspired much debate and much confusion. It has been described variously as a pathology, a style, a syndrome and a doctrine. Others have raised doubts as to whether the term has any analytical utility, concluding that it is simply too vague to tell us anything meaningful about politics.

      Drawing on recent developments in the theoretical literature, it is argued that populism should be regarded as a ‘thin’ ideology which, although of limited analytical use on its own terms, nevertheless conveys a distinct set of ideas about the political which interact with the established ideational traditions of full ideologies.

    104. jfngw says:


      Climate change demonstrators.

    105. Capella says:

      @ jfngw thx – might have guessed 🙂

    106. K1 says:

      I note this paragraph in the National’s top story online at the moment regarding Pete and Angus ‘abstaining’ on a couple of the indicative votes last night in HoC.

      Could someone who has access btl as this to be corrected as it is factually untrue:

      ‘It also showed she voted against a no-deal Brexit, but abstained on the option to remain in the single market and customs union – a plan first put forward by the Scottish Government in December 2016 and reiterated since then.’

      There was no such option on the ballot paper. This needs to be rectified as it is feeding into the Tory narrative, expressed today by Carlaw at FMQ’s, thereby ‘gaining traction’ in the msm and taking the spotlight off the more important clustershit taking place down south.

    107. K1 says:

      This is the wee report from FMQ’s on the Guardian’s ‘live’ coverage, from just 15 or so minutes ago:

      ‘Sturgeon defends SNP decision not to vote for customs union amendment

      Libby Brooks

      FMQs was inevitably dominated by Brexit matters, specifically with Nicola Sturgeon being accused of hypocrisy by Scottish Conservative deputy Jackson Carlaw after her SNP MPs failed to back the customs union amendment last night, despite promoting it as a compromise option along with a single market for the last three years.

      It was clear, argued Carlaw, that the SNP were obsessed with independence and not interested in compromise at all.

      But Sturgeon insisted that her reasoning was that, with options to remain amongst the amendments, “stopping Brexit altogether must be our top priority”. She added that the option of staying in the single market and customs union was not on the ballot paper last night.

      Her spokesperson later said that the FM’s position was that “remain appears to be very much in play”, that there was nothing on last night’s ballot that met the full continued single market/customs union arrangement put forward as a compromise by the Scottish government in 2016, but that the SNP has “not abandoned the potential for compromise”.

      Sturgeon suggested at FMQs that her MPs might vote differently on the options if they were brought forward again.

      Meanwhile, two SNP MPs abstained on the amendment for a second vote last night; long-serving MPs Pete Wishart and Angus Brendan Macneil broke the whip – unusually for SNP MPs – having spoken out previously about their concerns that such a vote sets a dangerous precedent for another independence referendum in Scotland.

      The FM’s spokesperson said that she disagreed with their position. And, again, he said that it was “self-evident that we need to wait for clarity” before Sturgeon can set out her own long-awaited thinking on independence.

      At the start of the session proceedings were interrupted by protesters from Extinction Rebellion Scotland who unfurled a banner demanding that the FM “establish a citizen’s assembly to address the climate emergency”.

      And goes to the point I made in previous comment. Stirring shits the Tories and cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything, so low they have to make shit up just to get their fake news out there. We don’t need the National following suit and should expect better journalism from then on matters like these. As br Brooks…couldn’t wait to post that pile of shit after FMQ’s…it’s like a circle jerk between msm and Tories.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit is an English identity crises that has nothing to do with Scotland. Scotland’s economy and social environment will suffer regardless. Does that sound like a healthy relationship?

      Brexit is the catalyst for a rupture in UK politics that has been a long time in the making

      The Political Economy of Brexit and the UK’s National Business Model.

      Neoliberalization, uneven development, and Brexit: further reflections on the organic crisis of the British state and society

      British Business Strategy, EU Social and Employment Policy and the Emerging Politics of Brexit.

    109. admiral says:

      HYUFD says:
      28 March, 2019 at 12:40 pm
      Frogesque 57 seats for the SNP in the 2021 Holyrood elections would be a loss of 6 seats from the SNP total of 63 in 2016 putting the combined Unionist parties close to if not over a majority.

      Love the word “combined in there, HI,YAFUD. Blue Tories, Red Tories, Yellow Tories one and all…

    110. Tony Hay says:

      RE FMQ didnt NS swat Carlaws questions right over the boundary for 6,granted the man is an imbecile but the FM again did a real number on him…….pleasing!

    111. Maria F says:

      I have now believed for a while that Labour is not longer the party of the opposition of the UK but rather the English establishment’s pretend party of the opposition. It is not longer opposing the tories but instead acting as a warehouse to lend votes on demand to the tories when and as required.

      I find it beyond fascinating that at a time when it would be so easy to defeat the tories if only labour was able to act as an opposition, there are always sufficient labour MPs to ensure the nastiest tory policies are given a chance. Now, we even have a situation where labour has actually fragmented into the main party and some sort of satellite, the TiGs, who appears to have even more freedom of vote than labour party itself.

      I am sorry. I don’t longer believe in the political system of the UK. I don’t longer believe labour is a credible opposition or actually that it is an opposition at all. All I can see is 3 political arms of the English establishment acting in collusion as a block.

    112. Capella says:

      @ K1 – it’s not just the Tories misrepresenting the truth. Labour is circulating a tweet accusing the SNP of treachery just as they did in 1979 over the No Confidence vote:

      A well rehearsed smear.

    113. CameronB Brodie says:

      You mentioned on the previous thread that you felt Brexit could be a success. I’ve looked at a fair bit of Brexit analysis and I think there’s only one think-tank supporting that view. I can’t remember which one but they are considered pretty radical and libertarian. Is that where you’re coming from?

    114. K1 says:

      I call what Brooks has done ‘a pile of shit’ because it was simply not news, as everyone including ordinary people knew that last night’s vote did not contain the option for ‘CU and SM’ on the ballot, so for CJ to even get his ‘spin’ out there and accuse the FM/SNP of ‘hypocrisy’ should have never even been ‘news worthy’ at all.

      He lied about what was on the ballot, it’s cheap political point scoring and the likes of Brooks are never too ashamed to ‘make a story’ out of nothing…and that is what qualifies as a pile of shit.

    115. K1 says:

      Aye, I noticed Capella…they are all firing blanks, indyref must be very close. 🙂

    116. Iain mhor says:

      Aye HYUFD back again, with lots of stats about party politics. Here is a simple exercise and easy questions for anyone mired in the same party political mind state.

      Using any data you wish and calculating as loosely as you choose:
      What is the average turnout by percentage for a party political election in Scotland?
      Of that figure, what is the average by percentage for: A/ Unionist Parties, B/ Independence parties?
      What was the turnout by percentage for the 2014 Independence referendum?
      Of the 2014 turnout, what figure by percentage, appears to represent those who do not vote in party political elections?

      The Brucie bonus: Which of the following, based on your answers above, represents the majority view on Independence for Scotland:
      A/ Unionist parties
      B/ Independence parties
      C/ Neither

    117. Breeks says:

      ScottieDog says:
      28 March, 2019 at 12:50 pm
      @Dave McEwan Hill
      “What is allabout is tha the SNP is going for independence but at this point it is better to support a soft Brexit for everybody over a hard Brexit.
      I don’t findthat difficult to understand at all.”

      Exactly. Hard brexit is chaos – which the spivs and speculators who have robbed the U.K. for the past 4 decades want.

      If Scotland voted to Remain, and England voted for Brexit, isn’t the whole point and objective behind Independence that Scotland should be free to Remain, and England should be free to Brexit without reciprocal interference?

    118. Capella says:

      Cheer up – Jonathan Pie has a timely rant about “What the f**k is going on?”. Summarises the situation very well:

    119. Patrick Roden says:

      This from the Daily Record should end any argument about how our First Minister is attracting previous No voters:

      “Scottish Labour’s most senior Euro politician has heaped praise on Nicola Sturgeon and described her handling of Brexit as “top drawer”.

      Scotland MEP David Martin also admitted he is no longer sure if it is “worth” fighting to keep Scotland in the UK.

      The rare words of praise for the First Minister from a Labour opponent will be seen as a significant boost for the SNP, as Martin is Scotland’s longest serving parliamentarian.

      Speaking on the Daily Record’s Scottish Politics Podcast, he said: “I have my differences, obviously, with the SNP Government – but not on Europe. I think the way that they have represented us in Europe has been from the top drawer.”

    120. Cubby says:


      I agree.

      More lies from the Britnats. The SNP compromise position has always been single market and customs union. That was not the option that was voted on. Carlaw started with what he wanted to accuse Sturgeon of then just told lies to accommodate his accusation. Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

      I know some people say we should not say Tories are scum but is it ok to call them lying scum?

      For the last 5 years Scots have voted to stay in the EU. Single market and customs union is a significant compromise that was ignored by the Tories from 2016.

      If Scots are sovereign and our votes are to mean anything we need to remain in the EU. If the only way left to remain in the EU is to terminate the Treaty of Union then that is what a majority of Scots have already voted for. If we leave the EU next month or in May Scotland should Terminate the UK.

    121. Bob Mack says:

      Corby knows that without Scottish votes he will probably never win. That goes for future Labour leaders too.

      They would need to have a coalition with the SNP or an arrangement which let’s them keep power.

      I imagine that sticks in his craw. There have been many articles outlining this fact, and I imagine Corbyn has read them.

      It is a desperate tactic from a desperate man who knows an election may be imminent, but is already over 35 seats down,if not more in Scotland.

      No surprise then they revert to old tried and untrue tactics of yesteryear. We now know better.

    122. Proud Cybernat says:

      Corby knows that without Scottish votes he will probably never win. That goes for future Labour leaders too.

      Virtually every Labour UK win has never had to rely on the result in Scotland – the Labour seats in Scotland were superfluous. England gets what England votes. If Corbyn can’t win in England then he’ll never be PM. Ever.

    123. Cactus says:

      Speaking of Labour, did anyone hear the Labour Luvvies on bbc radio scotchbread earlier today with their holierthanthouart wankfest (hat about 2pm)

      They were doing their damnest to pour doubt and distaste onto WOS and Rev, with regards to the current case going thru the court, they just couldnae help themselves and it was like… awwwwwe poor wee Kez, awwwe the poor wee soul

      ukUnionists say… dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot

      Good tae have ye back boss, Edinburgh is excellent

      Hey Dorothy 😉

    124. shug says:

      Usual BBC focusing on what the SNP votes for aor against and not on the labour party

      childish rubbish

      And call Kays this morning was painful.

      What gets me is the painful lack of self respect these BBC journalists and interviewers have for them selves pumping out this rubbish

    125. K1 says:

      It sticks in his craw, imo simply because he knows to get our support he’d have to agree the S30 for that would be the ‘red line’ from us before we ‘aligned’ with them on a vote by vote basis.

      All of this of course speculation…which is all any of have at the moment.

    126. Ben says:

      Sorry but that is BS, i know you don’t like Labour right now, but the blame for this lies solely with those fecking blue dots; If just a few had wandered over to common sense we would be having another ref, or a soft brexit.

    127. K1 says:

      The point about speculation about Labour winning an election, is that both Tory and Labour probably couldn’t get a majority on their own. Scotland will not vote for Tory MP’s and will probably put more SNP MP’s back into Hoc. They would be King makers and they would never align in any way shape of form to support a Tory gov.

    128. orri says:

      Think the point is that the Customs Union is only useful as part of a package. Even the Lib Dems weren’t dumb enough to commit to boundary changes and seat reductions without HoL reform or the passing of some form of PR.

      Without PR the proposals to reduce the number of MPs seem designed only to tighten the grip of the Tory Party based on the idea that democracy is too expensive.

      AV, without the +, is little better than FPTP which is probably why it was the only choice given to the public.

      So no, rejecting something presented in isolation that by itself is meaningless is not contrary to the aims of a party.

      There seem something similar in the governments current attempt at getting it’s bill through by presenting it in two parts with the hope, possibly, that each will have a majority support even if those that support both is a minority.

      Similar shenanigans are the attempt to whip up enough support to abolish current human rights legislation by coning people into thinking that the bits they do like will be replace by future legislation.

    129. K1 says:

      Remember May’s current gov is supported by 10 DUP MP’s. There is no way they want an election right now because they know their coats are on a shoogly peg even in England.

      Ian Blackford called for one last night after indicative votes. He’s no daft.

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Jonathan Pie. A bit of a wolf in sheep’s clothing, it would appear.

    131. K1 says:

      Apparently Gove has been ‘buying coffees’ for people in and around the ‘tearooms’…he’s a likely runner…god help us.

    132. gus1940 says:

      Following the recent SNP formal complaint to the BBC re the scandalous lack of SNP politicians appearing on News and Political programs last week I pointed out that our national broadcaster had responded insofar as there had been a sudden influx of SNP politicos tom said programs.

      This week the situation has escalated and it now seems to be near obligatory for said programs to include SNP representation.

      We (the SNP) seem to have hit a nerve and they are obviously worried.

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Democracy and representation have now become an issue in England, however, there was very little evidence of this when av was previously floated. There is considerable cultural resistance to bringing about the institutional reform that England needs, and little effort made to change this through public consultation and debate. Now we have the full-English Brexit. Marvelous.

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gove is an thick, reactionary, neo-conservative. Very simple.

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      There’s a difference between being thick and lacking education. Gove has an expensive education yet it was clearly wasted on him. He appears to be pathologically thick, a common characteristic of the right-wing personality.

    136. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says at 11:24 am

      Fifty-nine. Campaign theme. If there is a General Election we are going for them all.

      Hope we have approved candidates in place

      That’s a good campaign theme to take to the streets with and hammer home.
      We want the full-house..! 🙂

      “approved candidates”, I hope that means good solid folk without past baggage, no jobs for the pals thingy and if possible media savvy with quick thinking on their feet…!

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      Bit of a minefield last night for the SNP to navigate through, as whatever they did they’d be accused of not doing it or something. Quite probably a good idea for 2 of the MPs to rebel and abstain, as that view is shared by some in the Indy movement – it’s makes them representative. Who says the SNP is a cult!

      @K1 @2.45
      I’ll have a look, not too sure the exact detail of what was voted on and by whom – someone posted a link for that, can’t find it – any chance of someone reposting it? Thanks.

      But I don’t remember there being a CU + SM option either, just a CM one which is totally useless for Scotland (and the UK).

    138. K1 says:

      Someone put a comment about the paragraph in the National btl after I’d posted it on here…uptick please, if ye can.

    139. galamcennalath says:

      Of all the votes yesterday this is the most revealing, and the most scary ….

      Mr Baron’s motion B (No deal)

      160 MPs actually voted to take the UK over the cliff edge. ALL of them Tories. That is MORE THAN HALF of Tory MPs.

      Let that sink in. The majority of Tory MPs voted for chaos and destruction!

      I thought the loony far right fringe was maybe 60+, 80 at most. An eye opener.

      When it comes to the Tory MPs choosing potential leaders to then go to a membership poll I thought perhaps the nutters might be frozen out. Nope, Tory MPs WILL chose the likes of Gove, Mogg, Johnson etc..

      God help us if we don’t get into the lifeboat soon.

    140. K1 says:

      B. No deal – DEFEATED 160 to 400

      Backed by the Conservative MPs John Baron, David Amess, Martin Vickers and Stephen Metcalfe, the motion proposes leaving the EU without a deal on 12 April.

      D. ‘Common market 2.0’ – DEFEATED 188 to 283

      Tabled by the Conservative MPs Nick Boles, Robert Halfon and Andrew Percy and Labour’s Stephen Kinnock, Lucy Powell and Diana Johnson.

      The motion proposes UK membership of the European Free Trade Association (Efta) and European Economic Area (EEA). It allows continued participation in the single market and a “comprehensive customs arrangement” with the EU after Brexit, which would remain in place until the agreement of a wider trade deal that guarantees frictionless movement of goods and an open border on the island of Ireland.

      H. EEA/Efta without customs union – DEFEATED 65 to 377

      A motion tabled by the Conservative MP George Eustice – who quit as agriculture minister this month to fight for Brexit – proposes remaining within the EEA and rejoining Efta, but remaining outside a customs union with the EU.

      The motion was signed by other Conservative MPs including the former minister Nicky Morgan and the head of the Brexit Delivery Group, Simon Hart.

      J. Customs union – DEFEATED 264 to 272

      This plan requires a commitment to negotiate a “permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU” in any Brexit deal.

      It is tabled by the veteran Conservative Europhile Ken Clarke, and backed by Labour’s Yvette Cooper, Helen Goodman and the chair of the Commons exiting the EU committee, Hilary Benn, and the former Tory ministers Sir Oliver Letwin and Sarah Newton.

      K. Labour plan – DEFEATED 237 to 307

      Labour has tabled a motion proposing its plan for a close economic relationship with the EU. The plan includes a comprehensive customs union with the UK having a say on future trade deals; close alignment with the single market; matching new EU rights and protections; participation in EU agencies and funding programmes; and agreement on future security arrangements, including access to the European arrest warrant.

      L. Revoke article 50 – DEFEATED 184 to 293

      Under this plan, if the government failed to pass its withdrawal agreement it would have to stage a vote on a no-deal Brexit two sitting days before the scheduled date of departure.

      If MPs refused to support no deal, the prime minister would be required to halt Brexit by revoking article 50. The motion, tabled by the Scottish National party’s Joanna Cherry, has been signed by 33 MPs including the Conservative former attorney general Dominic Grieve, the Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Vince Cable, Labour’s Ben Bradshaw and all 11 members of the Independent Group.

      M. Confirmatory public vote – DEFEATED 268 to 295

      Drawn up by the Labour MPs Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson and tabled by the former foreign secretary Dame Margaret Beckett with the backing of scores of MPs across the house, this motion would require a public vote to confirm any Brexit deal passed by parliament before its ratification.

      O. Contingent preferential arrangements – DEFEATED 139 to 422

      A group of Conservative MPs, including Marcus Fysh, Steve Baker and Priti Patel, have signed a motion that calls for the government to seek to agree preferential trade arrangements with the EU, in case the UK is unable to implement a withdrawal agreement with the bloc.

    141. ronnie anderson says:

      Cactus I got a phone call informing me of what Stuart Cosgrove was saying re WoS in short he was sticking up for the Rev & WoS .

      Has any one got a link

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      Been there done that, as have others. That makes is nice and lazy for me 🙂

    143. Undeadshaun says:

      Stuart is a good guy, hasn’t forgot his roots.

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      The only ones the SNP could vote for are L and M.

      D wouldn’t work as EFTA with a population total less than 15 million, wouldn’t take the UK with a total popuation of 65 million as it would totally imbalance the economics of the block – plus the UK is a bully when it can manage, and it would do its utmost to shout the odds. Plus EFTA / EEA itself doesn’t have a CU, so that would need negotiating with the EU.

      It would also take the UK, at this rate, about 123 years to decide what it actually wanted out of EFTA / EEA by which time we’ll all be deid or in cryogenic chambers in an alien zoo.

    145. galamcennalath says:

      At FMQ today (which I haven’t seen) Nicola reminded everyone that the SNP/Scot Gov/Scot Parl preferred option of staying in the single market AND customs union was NOT on the ballot paper last night.

    146. Cactus says:

      Hey Ronnie, ah missed the names but it was in the main a lady on the radio show who was dissing the dirt… there was also indeed a guy who spoke more fairly and with neutrality, ah take it that’ll be SCosgrove then

      Cheers for the clarification, aye a link would be good to review

      Indy’s comin’

    147. Thepnr says:

      Interesting choice of words from the government “last chance”.

      1. Govt source confirms they are laying motion NOW to give MP s vote tomorrow on only the withdrawal agreement – if it passes, Number 10 believes we will leave on May 22nd – it’s the last chance, they say, to avoid a longer extension and parliamentary elections

      The have removed the future framework from the motion in order to make it different from MV2 and will now only be voting on the withdrawal agreement. I’d put their chances of winning such a vote tomorrow at approximately Nil.

      Bercow has already ruled that the vote can go ahead.

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gove is the smug new face of the New Right, which isn’t a new threat to liberal society. Here’s some Critical Social Policy and stuff in response to Thatcherism. Doesn’t poor Ms. Dugdale have an Ma in Social Policy?

      This is another CORE issue, btw.

      The New Right and Social Policy


      How far does the present government’s social policy represent the practical politics of the radical right? While some aspects of policy can be interpreted as the expression of the doctrines of new right political economists, other aspects display strong continuities with the practice of previous govern ments. The distinctive nature of the new right is most clearly displayed in political rhetoric and in qualitative aspects of policy. Electoral success sets the seal on a shift in political debate that has taken place through the seventies.

      The phenomenon of the growth of right-wing politics has been analysed at two levels: the structural level of the functional imperatives of the developing crisis of capitalism and the superstructural level of the capacity of ruling groups to construct the appropriate mass ideology — authoritarian populism. It is argued that any materialist account must attempt to link these two levels.

      The genesis of currents in popular consciousness is of crucial importance to political shifts in democratic societies. It is suggested that the ideological basis to the trend to the right is both a lack of apprehension of solidaristic class interest and a growing consciousness that available collective forms, like the welfare state, fail to serve perceived individual interests. The lived experience of state welfare has tended to make the individualism expressed in the new right plausible to many people.

      The Evolution Of Conservative Party Social Policy
      The ‘New Right’ and its impact on Conservative social policy

      New Right Ideology, Welfare State Form, and Citizenship: A Comment on Conservative Capitalism

      Category: Neoliberalism and The New Right
      What is Neoliberalism?

    149. Proud Cybernat says:

      If SNP vote AGAINST MV3 tomorrow then surely there’s a real danger of pushing us nearer to NO DEAL crash out as I don’t think even then WM would vote to revoke A50.

      Perhaps better tomorrow then that SNP abstain in tomorrow’s MV3 then Maybot would have better chance of winning then we have clarity and can get on with IndyRef2.

    150. galamcennalath says:

      TMay appears to be uncoupling the WA and the PD. Bercow seems to be saying this means it’s a new proposal.

      This could be significant.

      WA covers divorce payment, citizens rights, Backstop. PD is a statement on what sort of form the future trade agreement should take.

      The EU says WA is frozen, but the PD could be changed at two days notice.

    151. Thepnr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      I doubt there’s any chance at all of the SNP abstaining against the WA that May has negotiated. The will vote solidly against it as they have done in the first two votes.

      What possible reason would they have for changing their mind. You also have to take into account that May’s so called deal is the least popular option with members of the public. I don’t think being seen as helping May to get her deal through would go down well in Scotland.

      All along their case has been for remaining in the EU or at worst staying in the SM and CU, that’s not going to change.

    152. Sinky says:

      Progress Scotland has published the first findings from its inaugural large-scale opinion poll showing that Brexit is the biggest single factor impacting on views towards Scottish independence.

    153. Ghillie says:

      Dear Rev Stu, I bet the Cyberats are glad to have you home =)

      On behalf of Edinburgh, please come back soon just to have fun 🙂

      On behalf of Scotland, please just come home xxx

    154. Capella says:

      Hi Ronnie – the John Beattie show is what you’re after. The media review is with Eamonn O’Neil, Anna Burnside , Ann Marie? BBC co=-presenter with John Beattie and Stuart Cosgrove.
      Anna Burnside is a DR journalist and is usually pretty dim. Ditto Ann Marie (she once referred to Muriel Gray as a “lovely woman”).

      John Beattie was obviously a bit sharp with Stuart Cosgrove who shrugs off the attempts to shut him up.

      Anna Burnside pretended not to read WoS and criticised Rev Stu as a liberal who has failed to act the liberal in the case of Kezia Dugdale. Much tutting about language.
      Stu Cosgrove sounded well informed and supportive.

    155. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Thpnr – aye, ah know. No Brexit is popular in Scotland. We want to remain in the EU but I just don’t see now how the SNP can influence things.

      Tomorrow is crunch time. This entire Brexit shitstorm was a project fuelled by rampant English nationalism. They want it – let them have it. We shouldn’t interfere any longer. Our elected reps tried their absolute best to save England from itself and perhaps the time has come to simply walk away and leave England to their full English Brexit.

      The only way I can see Scotland being in the EU is to pull out of the UK and to rejoin the EU. If May wins tomorrow (not with direct SNP help) then we have 8 weeks to call IndyRef2 before we exit EU on May 22nd.

      I’m not solid on this – just chucking it into the mix to get thoughts of others.

    156. Liz g says:

      Ronnie & Cactus
      The woman was from the Daily Record & wondered why he didn’t sue the Daily Record!!!!
      One guy was full of praise for this Blog but damming the Twitter and still couldn’t get his facts right…
      One of the men seemed to be making out that it was a tweet ( as the new media) that Dugdale was in trouble for!
      No mention of Dugdale dragging it into Holyrood at FMQs.
      The other guy (I think, the Host) felt it was really Twitter that was on trial anyway!
      Wings was mentioned and praised again in the next segment about Trump…. by which point I’m shouting at the radio,it used to be different because people couldn’t find out for themselves and had to buy your shit….
      If anyone can dig out a link… It’s well worth a listen!

    157. Capella says:

      @ CBB – thx for link about Jonathan Pie. I will read it when I have the brain space as it deals with tricky subjects about which I know little, such as “deplatforming” and disputes in academe over left wing political correctness.

      But I agree with every word JP says in that video (and others I have heard such as his Jonathan Hhhhhunt one) so I am relying on the evidence of my own lying ears here!

    158. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 5.34
      Hey Capella well done 🙂
      Thank you for the link…

      It’s well worth a listen everyone….

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      We’d better brush up on our Brexitology then. 😉

      Political economy of Brexit, or Brexitology


      From Brexit to Bregret: An account of some Brexit-induced neologisms in English

      New Pragmatism versus New Nationalism

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr / @Proud Cybernat
      The SNP aren’t the opposition party who can do what they want, they’re the Government of Scotland who represent all Scots. From that point of view their driver is the 62% who voted Remain, a clear mandate for all and any effort to stay in the EU (though they did put forward their compromise paper with SM and CU). So all votes they make as a party, have to reflect that.

      They’ve already said May’s deal is a disaster for Scotland, so they have to vote against it as a party. If one or two of the MPs can’t bring themselves to do that, then I guess the SNP isn’t a rigid baaaaaa-like party after all.

      Only when all that is out of the way, as it might be in a handful of days, can they go full steam ahead for Indy.

      I can’t wait 🙂

    161. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ears is it? 🙂

    162. K1 says:

      It’s not settled in the HoC re mv3 tomorrow. There is a lot of criticism wrt separating the WA and the PD, citing that these 2 are ‘intrinsically’ linked…and that gov is pulling a fast one.

    163. Maria F says:

      galamcennalath says:
      28 March, 2019 at 4:49 pm
      “Of all the votes yesterday this is the most revealing, and the
      160 MPs actually voted to take the UK over the cliff edge. ALL of them Tories”

      Actually galamcennalath, it is even worse than that: 3 of them are labour MPs according to your link – Mr Ronnie Campbell, Kate Hoey and Dennis Skinner.

      Among the tories that voted for no deal is of course our own Ross Thomson.

    164. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – I posted the link above. I think the first section is good as Stu Cosgrove criticises the BBC which John Beattie clearly doesn’t like. The WoS discussion comes soon after the local news.

      Eamonn O’Neill is a lecturer in media studies at Napier University. He is quite bright but conventional in his views and is always greatly relieved to get onto the subject of Donald Trump and the USA, where he lived for a while.

      Anna Burnside is a journalist with the DR as you point out. She is very inarticulate and hums and haws, constantly searching for the right word without success. She loathes Alex Salmond, hated his suit and the RT show, and sounds more qualified to cover places to eat out in Glasgow (forget about the rest of the country). Definitely not “Scoop Burnside”.

      Stu Cosgrove, in contrast, actually knows what he is talking about. Very witty and well informed usually and supportive of the independence cause. Often corrects the misinformation doled out by the others. His days on RScotland are probably numbered. He has a Saturday show on football and matters footballic which is actually also witty.

    165. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g 17:34:

      The woman was from the Daily Record & wondered why he didn’t sue the Daily Record!

      Hmm, was there any prior declaration of interest from Ms Burnside, I wonder…

      […] by which point I’m shouting at the radio, it used to be different because people couldn’t find out for themselves and had to buy your shit…

      Oh, we’ve all been there! (Probably an essential qualification for posting on here.)

      Thank your favourite deity for WoS, it has been absolutely wonderful for our blood pressure besides everything else. It ought to be NHS-funded! =laugh=

    166. Capella says:

      @ Maria F – from Stu’s twitter – a tweet showing Ross Thompson with a group from VOX a far right Spanish political party who want to dissolve the Catalan parliament.

    167. defo says:

      Can confirm Cosgrove was fair regarding the dear leader.
      Made the distinction btw here (jounalistically sound), and the twitter (a bit rude, & not his cup of tea).

      How does he get away with not towing aunties line?
      Easy, he has both £££, & a spine!

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      Patrick Harvie is doing a brilliant job 🙂

      Now that’s a REAL tag team 😎

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm,excellent article in the Herald:

      I guess we now know why two MPs abstained!

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      Diffley: ““The importance of the EU as an issue which drives opinion on independence has doubled; 22% of voters put EU membership in the top two or three issues which determined their vote in 2014. Now, that figure is 43%, making it the single most important issue for voters in another referendum.

      and earlier:

      Of the 2,000 questioned, the poll also asked 351 undecided voters to analyse their views on independence.

      63% of undecided voters believed that Brexit made Scottish independence more likely with 45% saying that the impact of Brexit had changed their mind on independence. 66% of the 351 polled stated that if Scotland became an independent country, it should be a full member of the European Union. 56% backed Scottish independence if the UK left without a deal.

      It’s all happening and the media IN Scotland are finding it increasingly difficult to know what stance to take, with Indy creeping over the 50% line, unlike 2012-14 where it started at less than 30%.

      I think we might see very different media coverage this time.

    171. yesindyref2 says:

      Hello? Is there anybody there?

    172. CameronB Brodie says:

      What I’m trying to get at is, what are your criteria for effective government and public policy? Do you value social cohesion over individual wealth creation? Do you think these are incompatible policy objectives? Why do you think Scotland incapable of coping in the short-term? Does the fact that Scotland will have to cope with drastic transformation it voted against, not encourage you towards self-determination?

    173. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 6.03
      Aye yer no kidding Robert J…
      No jist the blood pressure either but sanity as well.
      Sometimes I think that’s what the Westminster Funded BBC are really all about…
      Driving people round the twist 🙂

    174. Cubby says:

      Nae cringe in Angus MacNeil.

      Angus sticks the boot into the mad Brexiteers in the Hof Commons this evening by pointing out that it is the EU that is insisting that the HofCommons has to vote tomorrow on the very day that the Brexiteers had arranged all their Brexit leaving day celebrations. The bunting is being taken down and the 50 p commemerative coins are being melted down for something more useful. Comedy gold.

      Tories tell the SNP to go home and stay there. The reply – we will soon and not be back as we will be independent.

    175. Nana says:


      Not read the thread so not sure if anyone has already posted the following

      Brief thread on the Government’s apparent new plan to separate the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration and only put the former to a vote in the Commons. THREAD

      The way the government has drafted this Motion to approve the Withdrawal Agreement tomorrow is really nasty. Text here:

      Meaningful Vote 3: The legal implications of separating the Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration

    176. Patrick Roden says:

      @ sinky,

      Thanks for that link, makes extremely interesting reading.

      No wonder Unionists are crapping themselves and desperate to stop indyref2

    177. Nana says:


      DUP tell me they will vote against the Withdrawal Agreement tomorrow, So @theresa_may’s ruse to secure her Brexit and 22 May Brexit day seems to have failed already

    178. K1 says:

      Thanks Nana, .

      Here’s, is what ah think is the most straightforward language that explains what tomorrow’s debacle is about from one of your links: ( )

      This absolutely fits what ah thought was going on, in that they are a bunch of shady bastards:

      ‘John Worth

      ‘It’s designed narrowly to fulfil the European Council’s criteria so as to set 22 May as exit date.

      But then the government would just sit on its hands until 12 April, and once that date is passed there would be no way back for UK as it couldn’t organise an EP election.

      Once you are beyond 12 April, asking for a further extension to the #Article50 period would be a legal nightmare.

      So then, after 12 April, May just has to go “It’s My Deal or No Deal”.

      So MPs must absolutely NOT fall for this ruse tomorrow. It would open the way for them to be subject to pressure and blackmail from May and the government the like which we have not seen so far.

      In short: it’s a despicable move.


    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Gove. He’s either pathologically thick or morally bankrupt, though the two states of consciousness often coincide in the right-wing personality, in a mutually supportive fashion.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that, I’d forgotten the WA (not the PD) had to be agreed by end tomorrow or the UK is actually out on April 12th rather than May 22nd. Wow.

      Just 2 weeks moer if the WA doesn’t pass, and it seems unlikely it will.

    181. ronnie anderson says:

      Cappella thanks for the link but im not signing in to the Bbc with my email addy .

    182. galamcennalath says:

      ” Even if the prime minister does eventually force her deal through parliament with grudging Euroskeptic support, Brexit is far from over. Despite months of negotiations, many of the key questions raised by the Brexit vote remain unanswered. Such is the opposition in Westminster to the terms on offer, that leading figures on both sides of the talks fear that Brexit, far from settling the U.K.’s place in Europe, will continue to poison British politics for years to come, with knock-on effects for Ireland and the EU.”

      The WA was supposed to be the easy bit, much more will follow before Brexit reaches any stable conclusions!

      When numpties say they are fed up and wish MPs would ‘just get on with it’, they have no comprehension of width and depth of the pond of shite that is Brexit!

    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      Talking about being morally bankrupt, do the Church of Scotland still pledge allegiance to British nationalism?

    184. Maria F says:

      galamcennalath says:
      28 March, 2019 at 4:49 pm
      “160 MPs actually voted to take the UK over the cliff edge”

      Actually Galamcennalath, thining a bit more about it, this only tells part of the really scary story. The motion proposed by Joanna Cherry was, if I am not mistaken, effectively revocation of A50 as a last resort to avoid a no deal – a safeguard.

      Well, this to me means that those who voted against this motion are as happy as the ones voting for the no deal motion to go for a no deal: it is in my view looking at the same prism from 2 different faces.

      If the ones that rejected “no deal” in the first motion were really committed to have some sort of a deal, I would have fully expected consistency and them to vote for Joanna’s motion to ensure that the UK can only leave the EU with a deal. But they didn’t. So why did they vote against the “no deal” option? Because they think the electorate is thick and are only interested in seeing who voted for “no deal” without bothering in looking at the other motions? Or because the word “revoking” gives them goosebumps and fears of losing their seats so they rather pass the buck to the electorate?

      For Joanna’s motion, 293 MPs voted against, meaning they rejected the use of revocation of A50 as a last resource to protect us from no deal. 293 MPs that choose no deal over revoking A50 is a hell of a lot and frankly says not much about the real commitment of the HoC as a whole to ensure the UK leaves the EU with a deal.

      What I find fascinating of this motion, looking at the votes, is that most important “assets” of the tory party, the ones really on the limelight, including May, Hammond, Gove, Fox, Hunt, Hancock, Sajid. Rudd, Leadsom and of course Mundell, appear as vote no recorded (I guess abstention). Rogue elements such as Mogg, Johnson and even remain elements such as Jo Johnson voted of course against the motion.

      But what is most fascinating here is the fact that Mundell and only one other Scottish tory empty vessel abstained/did not vote: Paul Masterton. Every single other Scotland Tory MP voted AGAINST Joanna’s motion:

      Colin clark
      Andrew Bowie
      David Duguid
      Luke Graham
      Bill Grant
      Kirstene Hair
      Alistair Jack
      Stephen Kerr
      John Lamont
      Douglas Ross
      Ross Thomson

      All of these above rejected revocation of A50 as a last resource to stop no deal brexit, going therefore completely against the will of the people of Scotland – are each and every one of these puppets considered disposable by the main tory party?

      It is puzzling that they defied the tendency of the main masters in the conservative party and of course that they all voted differently to the big Scottish Tory cheese Mundell. Why? What does this mean exactly?

      Are we to believe that 11 spineless as amoebas empty vessels found a backbone somewhere just for long enough to cast a vote against their boss?

      Or should we understand that these 11 empty vessels were instructed to vote against the motion while Mundell, indispensable due to his tea making qualities and ability managing the troops of anti-independence trolls in Scotland’s Office, was allowed to protect his backside from angry constituents in Scotland?

      Is because Mundell is now really concerned that he is going to lose the seat that is not taking any risks?

      Was HE perhaps was the only Scottish tory empty vessel who found the backbone to defy instruction given to all Scottish empty vessels to oppose the revocation motion?

      Are they now aware that Mundell is so overwhelmingly disliked in Scotland that he would not get away with voting against the motion without losing his seat?

      mmm, some food for thought there.

      I am going to have now a look at the labour Mps that voted against Joanna’s motion and therefore who in the labour party find as acceptable as the 11 tory empty vessels to reject revocation of A50 as a last resource to protect us against a no deal brexit.

    185. Nana says:

      Follow up from Jo Maugham

      As it’s now clear this is happening, I am re-upping a thread from earlier this afternoon on the absolute legal minefield the Government is entering.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, and reading on, Jings, even that doesn’t seem to do the job. First the EU might not agree in terms of the Lisbon, and 2nd it might not be legally enough in the UK because S13 in the Withdrawal Act. Jings indeed, and crivvens and help ma boaby.

      So, basically, MLV1 – MeaningLess Vote 1.

    187. Lenny Hartley says:

      Network Rail Scotland promises a 4bn investment over next five years., they have announced 42bn for entire Uk, off course its not a definate 4bn for Scotland, its fantasy figures, it will be used to diss Indy as they wil say we we will lose it if we vote for Independence. You got like a tryer not.

    188. ronnie anderson says:

      liz g as you know there were several publications mentioned other than the Daily Record & why the Rev didn’t sue them as he said he chose the writer of the article rather a broad sweep ( im paraphrasing ) .

      I would say as I have said from the start the Rev winning the action against Dugdale YES he should sue the Daily Record as they facilitated in broadening the reach of the story .

    189. yesindyref2 says:

      HMG getting itself into even more of a hopeless guddle.

      I think they should close down the House of Commons and send in the gas leak specialists and fumigators. Either that or the specialist Portondown team.

    190. Nana says:


      Yes, Jon Worth’s piece is the simplest to understand from all I’ve seen (so far)

    191. Nana says:

      @yesindyref2 🙂

      I’ve a few suggestions but perhaps not for a public forum.

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      Worth reading Sturgeon too

    193. Petra says:

      @ Sinky says at 5:27 pm … ”Progress Scotland has published the first findings from its inaugural large-scale opinion poll showing that Brexit is the biggest single factor impacting on views towards Scottish independence.”


      Thanks for the link Sinky. Great to see that 56% of Scots would vote for Independence if the UK leaves the EU without a deal (15% disagree- 29% what?). Too bad however that they didn’t take it further to find out what percentage would support Independence if a non-CU / SM deal gets through.

      Oil and education (surprisingly) didn’t feature highly in 2014 with oil still trailing at the bottom of the list. The NHS seems to be FAR more important to people than pensions, in 2014 and now, so may be something to consider when trying to ”convert” people to the cause.

      And finally interesting to see that 49% of people say that, ”I am waiting to see what impact Brexit has on me before deciding how I would vote in another independence referendum.” Clear, as per this poll, that calling for IndyRef2 before now would have been totally detrimental to winning IndyRef2 and one wonders how long ”they” are planning to ”wait” for, lol?

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. The walls have ears.

      Which is more than can be said for most at Westminster.

      The only sensible suggestion is that the Invasion of the Body Snatchers happened and it went drastically wrong.

    195. Nana says:

      @ronnie anderson

      A wee birdy tells me it’s your birthday today.
      Many happy returns Ronnie xx

    196. Capella says:

      @ CBB – I’ve now read the article about Jonathan Pie on libcom by an anonymous author I find their arguments illogical. It is a case of guilt by association IMO. Some of Pie’s material is co-written by a fellow stand-up comedian, Andrew Doyle, who writes for Spiked, an online magazine which he disapproves of. So what?

      I had a look at Spiked, dismissed as a “a left-liberal rag obsessed with getting speaking gigs for fascists” but it looks quite harmless to me. Andrew Doyle has produced a video about the pug dog taught to give nazi salutes and the misfortune this brought down on the head of Markus Meechan. So may be the sort of thing disapproved of. Alternatively, could be in defence of free speech.
      You decide!

    197. Scotspatriot says:

      Drowning Street latest….if Mays deal fails tomorrow…..long extension of Brexit and an immediate GE. Brace yourselves !!

    198. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, this is interesting somewhere: “[redacted]”.

      But that’s enough of THAT.

    199. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana Thanks XX an if its the wee birdy sitting oan ah barra ( sparra ) am gonae shoot it wie ma bow n arra .

      looking forward tae ma next birthday in a Independent Scotland .

    200. Nana says:

      From evolve politics

      Downing Street sources and Senior government Ministers have told journalists that if Theresa May’s Brexit deal is voted down for a third time tomorrow, the government will call a General Election in an attempt to break the current Parliamentary deadlock.

      The BBC’s Senior Political Editor, Laura Kuenssberg, has been told by a government source that if Mrs May’s deal passes in a crucial last ditch vote tomorrow in the House of Commons, Number 10 is confident the UK will leave the EU on May 22nd.

      However, also according to Kuenssberg, the government is now clear in its belief that tomorrow’s vote is the last chance for Mrs May’s deal – and that if it fails, they will seek a long extension to Brexit and call a General Election:

    201. Hackalumpoff says:

      Angus MacNeil and ripping the piss out of Tories.
      He starts about 30 seconds in from the lady speaking.

    202. Hackalumpoff says:

      doh – Angus MacNeil and SNP ripping

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      Special delivery message from the EU:

      If you look into the distance, there’s a house upon the hill
      Guiding like a lighthouse, it’s a place where you’ll be
      Safe to feel at grace and if you’ve lost your way
      If you’ve lost your way (I will leave the light on)

    204. Maria F says:

      So much for the “opposition” of labour to tories – less than a 10% in each party supported Joanna’s motion – this to me means that the overwhelming majority of these parties supports a no deal brexit or is simply indifferent to it (same thing in my books as none of them has showing an interest in stopping “no deal”)

      Tories voting against Joanna’s motion: 259
      Tories abstaining against Joanna’s motion: 44
      Tories voting for Joanna’s motion:10

      labour voting against Joanna’s motion: 22
      labour abstaining on Joanna’s motion: 110
      labour voting for Joanna’s motion:111

      9% of labour voted for Joanna’s motion
      3% of tories voted for Joanna’s motion

      What happened with Scottish labour MPs?

      Every single one of the Scottish labour MPs Hugh Gaffney, Ged Killen, Lesley Laird, Ian Murray, Danielle Rowley, Paul Sweeney, Martin Whitfield defied the “sit on the hands” line followed by the “main England Labour assets”. But differently to the 11 Scottish tory amoebas, the Scottish labour MPs were consistent with their vote against no deal, recognised that “no deal” is not acceptable for Scotland no matter under which circumstances and they all voted for Joanna’s motion, which is reassuring.

      The 4 Liberal Democrat MPs also voted for Joanna’s Motion.

      Looking at the huge incongruence that is voting against “no deal” by many MPs but then rushing to trash the only safeguard against “no deal”, and looking at how the 11 tory amoebas voted in block differently to the most senior party figures and differently to the Scottish chief, seriously makes me wonder about how this whipping really works.

      I was probably being rather naive in thinking that all the MPs of a party would be whipped in the exact same way. But what if they are not? What if different MPs are instructed to vote differently depending on the vote? Because that would explain to me the masterclass display in generation of faux fog and confusion that we saw yesterday. If the MPs within the 2 main parties are whipped differently, who decides who votes for what and on the basis of what? Is it ultimately the same source that “whips” both parties so it uses them as pawns to preserve the illusion of democracy?

      Anybody here knows about the “science” of whipping? How strategic is it as a tool? How many layers does it have? How much is it used/abused to fool the electorate into believing our MPs are really representing us and labour and tories are really “different” parties? How much was the distribution of votes in the motions yesterday already planned before they even started?

      I would love to know some more. The fog that emanated yesterday from Westminster has increased my curiosity in understanding how this whipping works enormously. I think I have been looking at this far too superficially.

    205. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , happy birthday ! I take it you are 21???

      Cactus , a wee wave to you!

    206. yesindyref2 says:

      Last ever Still Game tonight at 10 on BBCScotland.

      Series Link may NOT have picked it up, as it’s called “Over the Hill” on Sky.

    207. ronnie anderson says:

      yesindyref2 As liz g & Ruglonian found out on Tues , the walls have ears lol

    208. Petra says:

      ”O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us
      To see oursels as ithers see us!
      It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
      An’ foolish notion:
      What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
      An’ ev’n devotion!”

      Gove responding to Patrick Grady SNP MP at 10:18:45.

    209. Legerwood says:

      Someone, a Tory MP?, said on CH4 news if they lose MV3 they will try again next week with MV4!!!!!!

    210. ronnie anderson says:

      Dorothy Devine XX thanks Dorothy three times + 21 wie mair +++s , now looking forward to my retirement after Independence lol.

    211. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just passing on what I’d heard. Sorry, that’s a bit like the British Unionist Media.

    212. K1 says:

      They have to put a GE on the table if vote fails (which it will) to get a longer extension, and that is why they are desperate in attempts to pull a fast one like tomorrow’s vote…it’s not going to work.

      It was either GE or Second EUref that would allow EU27 to grant further extension, though very much think if GE called then that will certainly be on ‘somebody’s’ manifesto.

      Coudnae make this pish up… 🙄

    213. yesindyref2 says:

      What they don’t realise is we know that and use it to our advantage.

      Ooops I just told them 🙁

    214. Hamish100 says:

      “..Many Holyrood polls for 2021 also now give a Unionist majority.”

      Its 2019 twat. Come back in 2 years. Maybe you can bring Mundell– he seems to be hiding these days.

    215. robertknight says:

      I know it’s symbolic, but it’d be great to see it break 6M.

      Seems to be slowing, so encourage your family, friends, relatives, colleagues, neighbours etc.betc. to sign…

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      My wife won’t sign it nor will the kids, they wouldn’t put their name to anything like that. I’d guess a lot of people are the same. What would be interesting is a poll to see what percentage of people who would like to revoke A50, won’t sign for the same reasons.

    217. yesindyref2 says:

      Mind you, my boy did sign the petition to get the Horseshoe in 2012 or so to keep doing pie chips and beans. He likes his food.

    218. James F. McIntosh says:

      Unfortunately there may not be a Hollyrood after April 12th if no deal and government declares state of emergency.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      @James F. McIntosh
      But …

      There’ll always be an England
      While there’s a busy street,
      Wherever there’s a turning wheel,
      A million marching feet.

      Mmm, sounds like the march last week for the PV.

    220. Breeks says:

      I’ve got serious doubts about a long extension.

      Why would Europe want an influx of disruptive and disrespectful trash like Farage? If I was a Euro MEP and agreed the UK requires a year or even two to put its house in order, then why not let them exit and use the time to decide when they’re out and want in, rather than stay in to decide they want out.

      Rather than a stable and tranquil Withdrawal Agreement as backdrop, wouldn’t a year or two of life in the cold outside the EU do a great deal more to focus the mind of the UK and force it confront a few home truths and a dose of reality before coming back to Europe having learned a degree of humility?

      I can certainly see the logic behind a cooling off / reflection period, but an extension of time is not the only mechanism of achieving it.

      By equal measure too, if the UK was to decide it needs a longer extension, then it can revoke Article 50 and hold another Brexit 2 EU referendum when and if it dares, and go right back to the start?

      I strongly suspect the chances of a long extension are slim.

      I would also like to know with absolute clarity, what Scotland does when confronted with the immediate danger of a No Deal cliff edge Brexit. Are we about to clutch victory from the jaws of defeat? Or more properly, a sovereign escape to Independence clutched from the jaws of a catastrophic Brexit?

    221. Macart says:

      @ronnie anderson

      A birthday boy?

      Many happy returns Ronnie. 🙂

    222. Yanis Varoufakis on BBCQT,

      very much against the establishment,

      not to sure he is a fan of EU,

      esp after their treatment of his country.

    223. Bob Mack says:

      The UK is on a hiding to nothing. The EU must be looking at the panic and know they are winning.

      I think the EU will play hardball now for sure. I sense no panic in them as I do from Westminster.

    224. Marie Clark says:

      @ronnie anderson Many happy returns Ronnie 21 again? I think that you should pick an age that you like and stay there. I’m only 34 myself, haha I wish.

      Have a good one and mibbies a wee Old Pulteney or two to celebrate. Slainte.

    225. Breeks says:

      Just to add, revoking Article 50 means the UK’s membership continues exactly as it was and is unaltered in any way. I don’t mean to imply vengeance or vindictiveness, but Brexit has caused a lot of stress, a lot of money and disruption to a lot of lives. Supposing the UK did revoke Article 50, I don’t see things going back to the way they were.

      From the EU’s perspective, seeing the UK exit Europe, reflect, and perhaps see a very different UK choose to rejoin the EU would see the terms of UK membership revisited and subject to new negotiations. No juicy rebate for one thing…

      By the way, I’m speaking as a European. From a Scottish perspective, I would ask what “UK” is it you’re talking about?.. Because we’ll be gone.

    226. aLurker says:

      The John Beattie show segment:

      scroll forward on the time bar to
      1hr 13 min


    227. Sarah says:

      @yesindyref2 at 8.25 p.m.

      Our names aren’t shown publicly on the Westminster petition. The only people who know the signatories names will be…. oh, I see what your wife means!!

    228. Breeks says:

      Of course, I’m making the basic mistake of neglecting the Irish Backstop…. hmmm.

    229. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 20:36,

      A point that was made very forcefully recently by Verhofstadt.

      OTOH, Donald Tusk lately made a point in the EUParl of which you of all people should approve, namely that citizens of the EU should not be deprived of their right to vote merely because of some prior assumption of its possible effect.

      As to some kind of “cooling-off” period of UK exile, I suspect that the Leaver diehards will just dig in, like they have already done in the face of increasing clarity over the realities of Brexit. Like Suez but even more so, people will reach a consensus over the grotesque historic error that is Brexit only after several decades have passed.

      I reckon though we will have some sense of where we are heading very soon now. Maybe even tomorrow.

    230. David says:

      You forgot to mention all SNP MPS abstained on 3 motions

    231. David says:

      Also at any future Indy Ref no opinion polls to be published by anyone for say a month before voting day except exit polls

    232. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      As to Maybot’s cunning plan of splitting out the Declaration of Intent from tomorrow’s otherwise-unchanged legally-binding WA, the basic intention to my mind is to convince the Leaver diehards in her own party (plus reliable collaborators Hoey and Skinner) that once the line has been crossed, one of their number can become PM instead of her and they will then have an opportunity to scupper the DI and thereby ensure the no-deal exit they crave will happen after all.

      Considering that, thanks to yesterday, there is still no safety barrier at the road’s end.

    233. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      David @ 21:24,

      With elections that have a significant degree of postal voting, as is the case these days, exit polls are self-evidently inadequate as a means of verification. For other reasons also.

      It is a “solution” to a problem that doesn’t exist, a fundamental misapprehension based on nothing more than conspiracy theories and frustrated beliefs, and made no more valid by being all-too-commonly held. Alas.

      The real problem is secure voter registration.

    234. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for a bit more Brexitology?

      Brexitology: delving into the books on Brexit


      Britain’s vote to leave the EU, also known as Brexit, has produced a wealth of books, which should come as no surprise given the unprecedented challenges and debates it has led to in the UK, the rest of Europe and around the world. This review looks at the full range of books published in the run-up to and after the referendum. It offers a way of breaking down the literature into seven manageable topics: how to study Brexit; the history of UK–EU relations; the referendum campaign; explaining the result, Britain’s Brexit; Europe’s Brexit; and Global Brexit. The review identifies some common themes in the books so far published and looks at what the future holds for this topic.

      Brexit Britain Europe EU

      Parliament and the Brexit deal

      Taking Back Control? The UK Parliament and the Brexit Withdrawal Negotiations

      Jack Simson Caird: Taking Back Control: Brexit, Parliament and the Rule of Law

    235. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s a lot of people who don’t trust “gubmint”, particularly the UK one! And the less the contact the better.

      See that very near 6 million petition getting a hearing on Monday, the UK grubbymint has already said it’s ignoring it. That’s very near a dictatorship, stay well clear, I did sign though.

    236. galamcennalath says:

      ” BuzzFeed News has seen a diplomatic note of an EU27 ambassadors meeting on Thursday which states that the UK’s remaining options are no-deal or a long delay to Brexit. “

      What is interesting (hilarious in a sad way) are the three pre-conditions the EU would demand of the UK to enter trade talks after a ‘no deal’ exit … any guesses? Yes, a familiar trio divorce payment, EU citizens’ rights, and Irish border.

    237. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      robertknight @ 20:19,

      Currently it’s ticking steadily up at slightly over 2000 per hour, which if maintained would require ~24h to reach 6M. Even allowing a lull of ~8h for overnight, it’s still eminently feasible by 1st April. Not least since it might possibly get a last-minute boost by those not wanting to miss out by debate start.

      Not that the Mayhem Gang is even pretending to listen, mind you.

    238. ben madigan says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland who said “The real problem is secure voter registration”.

      AFAI remember – RIC and company did incredibly successful work in this regard for IndyRef1. Hope they will be encouraged to repeat their stunning performance in the build-up to IndyRef2

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Irish border. Time for some more Brexitology and a bit of Border Studies?

      Views from Local Communities in the Central Border Region of Ireland / Northern Ireland
      The Central Border Region of Ireland / Northern Ireland

      ….After generations of severe social, political, and economic challengesin the Central Border Region, not to mention the experience of violent conflict, the 21st century has begun to prove the viability and value of cross-border cooperation. Unremarkably and uncontroversially, cross-border connections have become a means of overcoming the dual challenges of underdevelopment and geographical peripherality. Economies of scale, small-step exports, social enterprise, crosscommunity projects, tourism initiatives, even bargain hunting -– in the past fifteen years, habits of cross-border movement have been developing that have brought evident and practical gain.

      The European Union helped to create an environment that made such contacts easier; indeed, it did a great deal to encourage it, as per the logic of the Single Market, legislative harmonisation and the European Regional Development Fund. Political parties of all hues have come to encourage local communities and businesses in the Border Region to make the most of such opportunities.

      The UK’s withdrawal from the EU will constitute a major change to the context for such relationships across the border. As such, the Central Border Region is the area most exposed to the risks of Brexit, for the impact of any divergence between the UK and Ireland will be felt most acutely at the Irish border. Although the nature and extent of any changes are as yet unknown, the very prospect of them is already having an impact in the Central Border Region.

      The purpose of this small-scale research project was to give a voice to members of local communities on both sides of the border in this Region, to better understand the potential and actual impact of Brexit even at this early stage.

      How Imperial’s findings on post-Brexit borders caught the eyes of politicians

      Brexit and UK and EU immigration policy

      Brexit Reports & Publications

    240. Thepnr says:


      The last sentence in that Buzzfeed article is a real cracker whether true or not 🙂

      Raab told reporters on Thursday morning that the prime minister should go back to Brussels to seek legally binding changes to the backstop or prepare for no-deal.

      The EU have repeatedly said that the withdrawal agreement, including the backstop, cannot be reopened. Asked about Raab’s remarks, an EU official said: “Oh for fuck sake”.

    241. Calum McKay says:

      Pure and simple it’s a right wing coup in which people, groups and agencies in the know who should be informing the people, are sitting on their hands in the hope of reward when it’s completed.

      The EU must be praying the uk leaves immediately so the the uk pox, toxicity and insanity does not spread to them.

      If you are in with the crows, you get shot, time for Scotland to leave the crows and stay with the 27!

    242. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, I’m not exactly a fan of Rees-Mogg, but that Newsnight interview with him was a disgrace.

    243. Sarah says:


      10.00p.m. – safety in numbers, I hope!

      10.53 – what did I miss on Newsnight?

    244. yesindyref2 says:

      I think the Spanish Inquisition would be shocked.

      Nobody expects …

    245. Bob Mack says:

      Venlafakis on Question Time.

      “Brexit is not a Scottish problem or an Irish problem. It is an English problem.”

      Silence from audience and panel. “Let’s move on”

    246. Sarah says:

      @yesindyref2 🙂

    247. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for some more Brexitology? Please keep an eye open for the Brexitology you are referencing, viewing the crises from a One Nation perspective. This doesn’t make the material invalid, it’s just something that needs to be taken into account. Obvs.

      A post-mortem reflection: The impact of the social sciences on the Brexit referendum outcome.

      The 2016 Brexit referendum — how was that for a case study in social science impact? On active display for months, the sciences of politics, economic activity and (to some extent) history and culture had the chance to make a difference to practice – taking that as a core definition of impact. A full-scale evaluation of the mobilisation of social science knowledge during the campaign awaits. These are preliminary notes.

      Why Brexit matters for the humanities and social sciences

      How will history view the UK’s Brexit process?

      The impact of Brexit on government and public sector

    248. Lenny Hartley says:

      Sacacprogram on Ch4 tonight Ed Stafford living on the streets for sixty days, this week he was in Glasgow, he was very complimentary on the way the Scottish Governmentd handles rough sleepng on the streets, although he did put a spolier at the end by saying rough sleeping was on the increase in Scotland. Nothing to do with Westminster policies I suppse.
      Anyways good program, a difficult subject dealt in an honest sympathetic manner.

    249. Ian Brotherhood says:

      2nd item on BBC R4’s midnight news is that 3.7 million children in the UK are now living in poverty.

      Kinda puts ‘Brexit’ in perspective, eh?


    250. Ian Brotherhood says:

      P.S. Correction…

      Should’ve said ‘absolute’ poverty.

    251. Marcia says:

      Clackmannan Central by-election result: SNP hold – 5.3% swing from Labour to SNP from 2017.

      SNP 865. 40.9%
      Lab 675. 32.9%
      Con 419. 19.8%
      Ukip 69. 3.2%
      Green 53. 2.5%
      LD 36. 1.7%

    252. manandboy says:

      “The head of the Electoral Commission has said no new referendum should take place until the laws around the use of social media and campaign funding have been significantly tightened – this cannot be rushed in case similar mistakes are made again.”

      Stephen Hammond MP (Tory)

    253. HYUFD says:

      Ian Brotherhood No, relative poverty. Even those interviewed had food, housing and heating

    254. HYUFD says:

      I see that Survation/Progress Scotland poll mentioned earlier had 40% completely support staying in the UK to only 24% completely support Scottish independence from the UK

    255. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @HYUFD –

      With all *due* respect, BBC R4 report said ‘absolute poverty’, so take it up with them.

    256. HYUFD says:

      Ian Brotherhood The BBC should have known that absolute poverty is defined as ‘the complete lack of the means necessary to meet basic personal needs such as food, clothing and shelter’ by the UN and that was not the case here.

    257. yesindyref2 says:


      Yet again you show your ineptitude, and lack of research, apart of course from believing anything you read in a Sun journalist twitter feed, and indeed anything that suits your twisted agenda. Try this, kindly left lurking by a similar twister on another forum:

      from here, another dubious source

      which leads you unsuspecting like unless you’re a real alert Winger to this:

      which gives you this:

      Unweighted Total 351

      See that HYFUD? 351

      but the full survey was of “more than 2,000 people in Scotand”.


      for some slight recovery of any of your diginity, tell us all what the subsample consisted of – I do know!

    258. yesindyref2 says:

      Chris Musson: “In its first poll write-up, ex SNP dep leader Angus Robertson’s new venture declines not to mention it found low independence support. Survation found 24% “completely support” indy vs 40% “completely support” staying in UK. But it’s not mentioned here:

      and the next tweet:

      In the interests of transparency, anyone who wants to see the full tables of the poll commissioned by Progress Scotland can download them here ..
      (link gone now – but my one above still works).

      Perhaps poor Chris should have done the “anyone who wants to see” stuff AND looked at the actual subsample xls 🙂

    259. HYUFD says:

      So you do not deny the figures then, good

    260. Liz g says:

      Hope you had a happy birthday Ronnie and many more of them in our indy Scotland 🙂
      Those walls certainly did have ears but I’m sure those ears are the soul of discretion…. What happens in Edinburgh stays in Edinburgh…. Quinine fae Angus made that rule whilst we were all enjoying soup….

    261. yesindyref2 says:

      Are you really, genuinely, so deficient in brain cells?

      Sorry, that was a silly question, the answer is self-evident. Here’s a proper question:


      Do you want a 50-50? Ask the audience? This is only the first question!

      The next would be – did you look at the other tables, there are 9 more …

    262. yesindyref2 says:

      Archived that redrobin page link –

      can’t archive the spreadsheet, nor on Wayback, but I did save it, quite accidentally of course.

      Anyways, Angus Robertson’s Reform Scotland Survation report is here:

      for instance nearer the bottom:

      Base: Those undecided on independence (351)

      Brexit makes Scottish independence more likely
      Agree: 63% / Disagree: 13% / Neither: 20% / Don’t know: 4%

      Brexit has changed my view on Scottish independence
      Agree: 45% / Disagree: 22% / Neither: 32% / Don’t know: 2%

      If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, I would be more likely to vote for independence in a future referendum
      Agree: 56% / Disagree: 15% / Neither: 23% / Don’t know: 7%

      And of course, the main point of Reform Scotland is – undecided voters.

      The stuff FUDs won’t tell you, eh!

    263. yesindyref2 says:

      Progress Scotland not Reform Scotland, sorry!

    264. Breeks says:

      The last time Boris Johnson was in the running for PM, I was appalled at the dangerous prospect he might win.

      Now it seems we have Johnson, Raab, Hunt or Gove, in the running to take over from May, and curiously, I feel nothing. My contempt for all is profound, uniform and indiscriminate. I feel so very far removed from even caring. But full truth be known, there’s an alarm bell ringing… I sense the presence of con-men, and getting me to look away might represent a partial success in their scheming.

      Let us just step away from all of this. There is no part in any of it that is right. This is an alien culture to me. These are not my people.

      We are indoctrinated by their anti Scottish propaganda, and the perception of Scotland as a region of Britain is the product of the British Establishments calculated distortion of the truth. Why would that perversion of truth be necessary? Why is it still necessary? Why are they so terrified of Scotland’s self awareness? Why? Could it be because they know? They know the United Kingdom is a massive colonial fraud, designed and maintained to cover up the colossal exploitation and plundering of Scotland’s life force and natural resources? They know it, and they know they’re up shit creek when we Scots begin to waken up and begin to grasp the enormity of the scandal.

      Our hillsides have paid the price of Unionism. Our raptors, our grouse, our hares, our foxes, our trout, our salmon, our sea fish, have all paid the price of Unionism. Our people have paid the price of Unionism. Shot dead in faraway places we don’t belong, exiled, starved, or raised from cradle to grave in servitude and poverty. They’ve paid the price of Unionism. Our heritage has paid the price of Unionism. Our Gaelic and Auld Scots language and culture has paid the price of Unionism. Our distorted, rewritten and under-taught history has paid the price of Unionism. Our crafts, our industry, have paid the price of Unionism. Jesus H, even the word “Unionism” is a lie. What “Union” sucks the life out every aspect of its host the way Scotland has been bled dry and still hasn’t the grace to stop, apologise, or even express a humble murmur of gratitude? Some Union.

      Let this be where Scotland’s nightmare ends. Let us be the generation of Scots which undid Scotland’s bondage. Leave a light on for us says Alyn Smyth. Aye. Please do, because Scotland is emerging from several lifetimes spent in a very dark place.

    265. Iain 2 says:

      Well said Breeks.

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      john pinar, 10 oclock news

      “as someone said, the pm is the only pm to ever fall on her sword and miss”

      Fiona Bruce, bbcqt

      “as someone said, the pm is the only pm to ever fall on her sword and miss”

      great quote, but dont mention ns or the snp or scotland


    267. Capella says:

      @ Breeks 4.43 – brilliant comment. Eloquent and true. Captures the core of the state we’re in.

    268. Breeks says:

      This is quite informative, although I don’t agree with some of it. The EU has not contrived to trap the UK as the author occasionally hints. The fact is the UK has been outmanoeuvred by traps and land mines that were perfectly static and in known locations if only the UK had bothered paying attention before the great Brexit triple jump right into the middle.

      It’s also a little grim too in what it doesn’t say. At no point do you get the sense that the Scotland situation was seen as a particular thorny difficulty that needed to be defused and contained, nor even given careful handling. For all the rhetoric outside, inside the room, it seems pretty clear Scotland has been a material irrelevance in nearly every way possible. Seems to me we’ve hardly any grounds to criticise Westminster for the lack of potency in their negotiation skills and failure to steer the agenda. Who are we to point the finger?

      Whether that’s a could’a, would’a, should’a kind of failure is largely academic because we’re stuck with the “we didn’ae” consequentials, but in the interests of cheery Wings bon ami comradeship and common purpose I will now bite my tongue and say nothing more on the matter.

    269. Capella says:

      Unfortunately, you’ve now reverted to type!

    270. Nana says:


      Scottish Labour MEP calls Nicola Sturgeon’s handling of Brexit ‘top drawer’
      Scotland MEP David Martin also admitted he is no longer sure if it is “worth” fighting to keep Scotland in the UK.

      Scotland must not be dragged out of the EU against its will.
      The SNP has called on MPs to reject the Tory government’s Withdrawal Agreement tomorrow (Friday) – warning supporting it would be a vote for the “most extreme blindfold Brexit”.

      There seems to be some confusion about why @theSNP MPs abstained on #Boles & #Clarke amendments last night but it’s really very straightforward so here’s a thread explaining why

    271. Nana says:

      “If war continues, Yemen could be facing the worst famine in 100 years, according to the UN. Families have been struggling to survive without enough food. Clashes have left tens of thousands dead and over two million people displaced. The situation is desperate.

      Pete Wishart told to “go home”

    272. Nana says:

      “The Prime Minister is entirely well aware [of the corruption]….and decided to carry on.”

      Can UK & EU legally agree not to hold elections to the Euro Parliament? 6 distinguished EU lawyers said so in an opinion This EU lawyer doesn’t agree… Detailed thread 1/

    273. Nana says:

      EU ambassadors meeting in Brussels today discussed what their new negotiating demands will be if UK asks to reopen talks after a no deal Brexit. Top of their list: UK must ‘fulfil its commitments under the GFA’ [accept the backstop] and ‘honour its debts’ [pay the divorce bill].

      We’re led by a party not fit for power in a system not fit for purpose

    274. Nana says:

      Brexit: nothing is ever simple

      Emily Maitlis: “You didn’t say well I’m not quite sure – you said it would turn the UK into a slave state and then you consider voting for it!”

      Emily Matilis grills Jacob Rees-Mogg on the language he has used around the Govts withdrawal agreement.

    275. yesindyref2 says:

      I think this covers it fine, in an article about the UK messing up negotiations by not being ready, Ireland and NI and a hard border:

      Instead, in the aftermath of the referendum, Cameron resigned as prime minister; Labour MPs attempted to oust their party’s leader Jeremy Corbyn; Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, vowed to hold a second independence referendum; and Martin McGuinness, then deputy first minister of Northern Ireland, called for a vote on whether the British territory should leave the U.K. and become part of the Republic of Ireland.” (my bold)

    276. Capella says:

      @ Marcia – thx for the results of the Clackmannan election. A 40% SNP vote sounds good.

    277. manandboy says:

      With this episode, we get an insight into the absolutely desperate desire of Theresa May to remain as PM & in Government. The question right here is of course why.

      The answer lies in saving the entire British Establishment from losing its protected privilege as the inheritors of the Empire and the wealthy Ruling Class, holding the real power in the UK.

      But for this project to be successful, Scotland must remain a colony.

      Scotland in the UK is like Westminster owning Norway.

    278. Ken500 says:

      Criminal Johnstone would not last a month as PM because of all the closet skeletons in the cupboard and the Tory voters despise him. A reprobate. He would start 111WW. Absolutely mad with psycho bastard tendencies, Totally suitable for the job of finishing off the Tories forever. That is why he is hardly likely to be PM. The UK is mucked up enough.

      It would be worth it for the comedy gold as the Tories are finally sold down the swanney. In a sinking, stinking boat. A fat load of dead fish. Singing,’My old man said follow the band of idiots, and don’t dilly, dally on the way’ to oblivion. It is the Tory way. They just can’t help themselves muck up everything.

      Just look at Thatcher. NI unemployment 20% (the troubles) Scotland 15% unemployment. The only place where unemployment was under 10% was Londion S/E. Scotland’s wealth taken secretly and illegally to fund London S/E. inflation up to 25%. Interest rates up to 18%. The banks deregulated,the Building Societies own by their members sold off. So the bank could gamble the assets on the stock exchange. Loads of money ‘bankers’.

      Thatcher wasted all the Oil revenues completely. Gave it to the ‘bankers’ indirectly. They funded the Tory Party. That is why she got elected. Illegal payments and graft. Misuse of public monies. Still going on today. It is the unionists way, Back to that? A world banking crash. The bams. Led like sheep to slaughter right over the cliff. Not a bird brain between them. Just a bunch of stinking poops to leave behind. Getting behind Leave. Far right behind to oblivion.

      The EU markets and advantages/benefits helped the UK out of a hole. A positive result. More jobs. The nearest biggest market for goods and trade. Founded after the war to stop starvation and war. It has succeed big time in bring more prosperity, cooperation and peace. A positive in the world of conflict.

      UK/US (France) bombing the Middle East to bits. In an illegal,campaign of death and destruction. Totally illegal and destructive with no objective but conflict.,Affecting Europe and costing £turns. The EU knows who are the bad guys and are fit for them.

      Thatcher riots and violence in the streets. The Poll Tax devised by an unelected Rothschild. Imposed by Keith Joseph. Absolute suffering of the population, Black Wednesday crash. They were trying to join the ERM mechanism the route to joining the Euro, No success. The £ currency had to devalue. Worth less. That’s what brought her down, Thatcher greeting face. The Tories got rid themselves. She was not appreciated.

      The lies the Tories (Labour) tell about the EU are appalling. The EU has helped the UK to better prosperity not held it back. Just another Tory/unionists ploy about who wants to be PM. Johnstone will not last long even with a haircut. Splitting hairs. The Westminster unionists could not make a bigger mess.. A complete and utter shambles. They are sanctionig and illegally killing people. The most despicable people on the planet.

      Thank goodness for the SNP standing up for Scotland, Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independenve. Vote for better governance and prosoerity. Get one other to vote too. Job done. Now is the time. Cometh the hour. The Tories will call a GE they can lose. To get out of the mess of their own making as usual. That is what unionists do. Leave the mess behind for someone else to try and sort. Lablour/unionists and not up to the job. Neither are any of the rest.

      Scotland going it’s own way to Independence. Peace prosperity and happiness. Scotland, once again, can influence the world for the better. After years of misrule, overrule, and mismanagement. People know it makes sense. Get shot of the psycho bastards. They are not fit to stand under the Representation of the People’s Act. Habitual liars. Lie after lie after lie. Liars always get found out, They try to keep their criminality secret under the Official Secrets Act,

      Iraq War, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

    279. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      29 March, 2019 at 7:15 am

      “Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, vowed to hold a second independence referendum”.

      …And for the second time in two years, the mighty Nation of Scotland was enchanted, and seduced back to sleep with a vow.

    280. manandboy says:

      Breeks at 4.43.

      At your best, Breeks, excellent, Please let’s have more like this, – and pull back on the other stuff.

      Well done!

    281. manandboy says:

      Breeks at 7.58am.

      You were doing so well too.

    282. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 07:58,

      Oh Freund, nicht diese Töne!

      It’s not over yet, dear fellow. By no means. Elvis was supposed to have left the building today, but he’s still here!

    283. Nana says:

      As a howling right wing mob assembles outside Parliament (one @theSNP MP has already been racially abused) Liam Fox & John Humphries have a cosy chat on @BBCr4today about MPs betraying the will of the people. Scotland are you watching this?

      Officials said that if the deal isn’t passed by midnight tonight then @eucopresident will call an emergency summit in the days before 12th April, where leaders will have to decide if the conditions have been met for an extension lasting until end of 2019 or slightly longer. (3)

      England easily pleased

    284. Bobp says:

      Breeks 4.43am. Great post breeks.

    285. Happy Brexit Day 🙂

      Mad as a bag of mad ferrets Conservitive and Unionist leader and Prime Minister of UK Theresa May told UK Parliament 108 times that UK would leave EU on March 29th 2019,

      108 times !,

      and yet here we are.

    286. Sorry,

      Happy Brexit Day ?

      Mad as a bag of mad ferrets Conservative and Unionist leader and Prime Minister of UK Theresa May told UK Parliament 108 times that UK would leave EU on March 29th 2019,

      108 times !,

      and yet here we are.

    287. Nana says:

      Event taking place today starting at 10.30am. There is a video/audio link so might be worth keeping an eye on it as Curtice is on at 2.30pm

    288. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      ” US Christian right ‘fundamentalists’ linked to the Trump administration and Steve Bannon are among a dozen American groups that have poured at least $50 million of ‘dark money’ into Europe over the last decade, openDemocracy can reveal today. “

      Perhaps the obsession with ‘Russian interference’ is a deflection tactic and we need to also look elsewhere for threats to our way of life.

      Brexit appears to have been bought by dark money and clearly the object is to shift the UK (mainly England) to the right.

    289. Scott says:

      QT last night,ok not the best of programs but did you hear the Greek man say what we all know that its an English Brexit not Scottish or NI but English this is the first time that anyone has said this on TV I just wonder why it was not edited out not beyond the BBC.

    290. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – Good article in Politico – thx for the link. I noticed another of interest. The UK can’t escape the Northern Ireland backstop through a no deal BREXIT.

      I wondered what would happen in a no deal scenario – seemingly, exactly the same demands would apply if the UK wants to have any relationship with the EU:

      Speaking to ambassadors of the EU27 countries, Selmayr said that if the U.K. leaves without a deal, the EU must present it with three preconditions for starting any new discussions, three diplomats confirmed to POLITICO. These are: Trade talks will not begin until the U.K. agrees to settle its financial obligations to the bloc; the protection of EU citizens’ rights in the U.K. must be ensured; and there must be safeguards to protect the Good Friday Agreement, Selmayr said, according to the diplomats.

    291. Astonished says:

      Great result in clacks for snp last night. “two horse race between us” said the red tories and the blue tories. snp win !

      How great was it – broon the liar was there and many others pushing for the red tories. Also BBC – no reporting.

      Great : sincere congratulations to all concerned

    292. auld highlander says:

      Breeks at 4.43

      That should be printed off and mailed to every person in Scotland.

    293. Dr Jim says:

      One wonders if all the Trolls from south of the border interfering in their neighbours political and constitutional decisions here in Scotland interfere in the same way in Northern Ireland’s websites over the reunification of Ireland

      One wonders if the Irish would accept this (as they would see it foreign interference) with such patience

      The reason I mention this is nobody shouts abuse at Irish MPs in the HOC and tells them to go home but it’s apparently acceptable to do it to Scotland’s representatives

      When Irish representatives are spoken to a generally more delicate tone is adopted in their presence (behind their backs is another thing but to their faces, different)

      Take the Sec of State for NI for example there’s no Mundell style approach to Irish MPs as there is to Scottish MPs, she’s very careful to be polite at all times

      Now you could argue that it’s all because the Tories need the Irish at the moment so treat them nicely but then you might have to argue that both Tory and Labour don’t consider they need Scotland’s MPs so treat them badly, and if that’s the case why are we still being polite to any of these people who don’t want us, pretend they don’t need us but still claim ownership of the country we live in and all it contains

      How long will it take some folk in Scotland to realise these people have no respect for us and never will, and it wouldn’t be so bad but Scotland doesn’t need them, it’s time to leave them to grow up and we can talk to them again when they’ve learned their lesson

    294. Nana says:

      Today this message from Scotland will be viewed in countries across Europe. Scotland is open, #ScotlandIsNow @Scotland
      “Europe, let’s continue our love affair”

    295. Bob Mack says:

      Listening to Geoffrey Cox the slippery Attorney General trying to get MPS to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement, stating it is a legal requirement to have a safe extension till May. It is not.

      He should be in Soho with a table playing the shell game with unwitting tourists. Charlatan.

    296. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana , lovely video but deary me ! Some of those comments below the line are frighteningly ill informed , puerile and aggressive- and they walk among us!

      I can understand someone who sincerely believes in what they are saying but I cannot understand the sneering and bullying.

      I also blame the MSM for leading people into that unthinking method of behaviour. They have been rallying the mob for years now and will come over all moral indignation when someone gets hurt or property damaged.

      I watched The Great Debaters last night and applauded the teaching of thought process and argument. It reminded me of Paul Kavanagh thanking his mum for teaching him how to think , not what to think.

    297. desimond says:

      Step up for The Grand National chase for Tory leader and PM…as normal, let the over-enthusiastic contenders run away like mad before running out of puff when the real finish comes around.

      The next Tory Leader…we are back in Major after Thatcher for the man who says nothing, the grey man who is almost invisible in plain sight…a man of position yet makes no waves whatsoever….

      Its gonna be Phillip Hammond.

      PS..I’m still laughing at Liz Truss on Peston not saying NO when asked if she would stand. Heavens to Betsy!

    298. Bobp says:

      Dr jim. ” how long will it take some folk in Scotland to realise these people have no respect for us”.
      How long is a piece of string?.

    299. Ottomanboi says:

      Conspiracy theories apart, the Brits joined the then European Common Market during Edward Heath’s administration as the country was truly in a sick man of Europe mess and needed all the help it could get. The Anglo establishment was never happy at having to genuflect to Europe, but at the time needs must.
      England sees itself against the fading rosy light of empire. The ‘what we once were image’ still has life in it. The Tudors, Victoria, the Raj and the rest….on a endless tv loop in the UK care home.
      Scotland, whatever the views may be on the current EU, should sign out of this establishment, before we become too institutionalised and witless to do so.

    300. Effijy says:

      Clacks election result- Congratulations to the SNP and the constituents
      For taking time to look at their Future.

      The Greens need to have a close look at themselves.
      I believe forcing this possible work place parking charge
      Has greatly damaged them.
      To be beaten by a UKIP candidate in Scotland and get 50
      Votes was a waste of paper for their leaflet drop.

      I ask them to support SNP, get Independance and then work
      With us to do what is practical for the environment.

      People are working longer and longer each day trying to pay their bills.
      If they can’t afford these proposed fees it adds hours on their day commuting.

      The car is an absolute necessity for some who need home quick to pick up kids,
      Take the dog, out or just to have a couple of hours family time.

    301. CameronB Brodie says:

      The way we see and talk about the world is largely shaped by our personality type, though these boundaries can be overcome with the correct instruction. Time for a bit of Positive Psychology and stuff?

      Four basic personality types identified: Pessimistic; optimistic; envious and trusting


      A study on human behavior has revealed that 90% of the population can be classified into four basic personality types: Optimistic, Pessimistic, Trusting and Envious. However, the latter of the four types, Envious, is the most common, with 30% compared to 20% for each of the other groups

      The Psychology of Optimism and Pessimism: Theories and Research Findings

      Explanatory Style: Methods of Measurement and Research Findings

      Unrealistic optimism: still a neglected trait

    302. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 445am,

      Very well said.

      Worth quoting this;

      “We are indoctrinated by their anti Scottish propaganda, and the perception of Scotland as a region of Britain is the product of the British Establishments calculated distortion of the truth. Why would that perversion of truth be necessary? Why is it still necessary? Why are they so terrified of Scotland’s self awareness? Why? Could it be because they know? They know the United Kingdom is a massive colonial fraud, designed and maintained to cover up the colossal exploitation and plundering of Scotland’s life force and natural resources? They know it, and they know they’re up shit creek when we Scots begin to waken up and begin to grasp the enormity of the scandal.

      Our hillsides have paid the price of Unionism. Our raptors, our grouse, our hares, our foxes, our trout, our salmon, our sea fish, have all paid the price of Unionism. Our people have paid the price of Unionism. Shot dead in faraway places we don’t belong, exiled, starved, or raised from cradle to grave in servitude and poverty. They’ve paid the price of Unionism. Our heritage has paid the price of Unionism. Our Gaelic and Auld Scots language and culture has paid the price of Unionism. Our distorted, rewritten and under-taught history has paid the price of Unionism. Our crafts, our industry, have paid the price of Unionism. Jesus H, even the word “Unionism” is a lie. What “Union” sucks the life out every aspect of its host the way Scotland has been bled dry and still hasn’t the grace to stop, apologise, or even express a humble murmur of gratitude? Some Union.

      Let this be where Scotland’s nightmare ends. Let us be the generation of Scots which undid Scotland’s bondage. Leave a light on for us says Alyn Smyth. Aye. Please do, because Scotland is emerging from several lifetimes spent in a very dark place.”

      Parasites is the word you were looking for. Parasites. Sucking the heart and soul out of Scotland for over 300 years.

    303. INDEPENDENT says:

      Oops Adam Boulton has a Gordon Brown meltdown moment and HIS REAL THOUGHTS,the TRUTH, comes out off camera Going to adverts at 10 35 camera cuts to pic of Westminster HOC.
      His mike picks up.
      ” This talk of/by the right wing is all BOLL**KS”
      Cuts off.

    304. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some more Positive Psychology and stuff.



      Learned helplessness as a negative motivational state can latently underlie repeated failures and create negative feelings toward the education as well as depression in students and other members of a society.

      The purpose of this paper is to predict learned helplessness based on students’ personality traits. The research is a predictive correlational study and the population consists of all high school 3rd grade female students in Kermanshah-Iran in 2013-14. Based on Cochran formula, the sample size was
      determined 360 people who were selected using multistage cluster sampling method.

      The samples responded personality traits and attribution style questionnaires. Data were analyzed using Pearson correlation coefficient and multiple regressions with SPSS software. The results showed that there is relation between learned helplessness and personality traits of neuroticism, agreeableness, and conscientiousness, but only the trait of
      neuroticism can inversely predict learned helplessness.

      Personality Synopsis
      Chapter 9: Section 3: Learned Helplessness

      What Is Learned Helplessness and Why Does it Happen?

      Learned Helplessness: Seligman’s Theory of Depression (+ Cure)

    305. SilverDarling says:

      Michael Gove now the favourite at 5/2 to be the new leader of the Tories. Of course, he hasn’t said he is standing yet but his petulance and sneering at the dispatch box towards the SNP shows how he will conduct his campaign.

      An absolute horror of a man.

    306. jfngw says:

      Theresa May, the prototype of failed artificial intelligence. The software is stuck in a loop, its programming is deficient, it has not the cognitive reasoning to escape this loop. Is this our future, cloned replicas of the May9000 model.

    307. CameronB Brodie says:

      And a bit of Positive Psychology on how to overcome Learned Helplessness.

      3 methods to overcome learned helplessness and reach optimism
      Methods for unlearning learned helplessness

      At the root of it, learned helplessness is a form of conditioning. Conditioning is based on the idea that human behavior is learned via associations and responses in the environment. Simply put: If something is reinforced/rewarded, we are more likely to repeat that behavior again. And likewise, if we are punished, we’re more likely to avoid that same behavior in the future.

      Unlearning this association and deconditioning the response takes just a little bit of practice. In the sections that follow we’ll focus on how to reverse this way of thinking/behaving so that you can grow positively and be motivated in taking risks and trying new things out.


      How to Reverse Learned Helplessness

      From Learned Helplessness To Hopefulness: How To Overcome Emotional Paralysis And Take Your Power Back

    308. mr thms says:

      I support giving LAs the right to introduce a workplace parking levy.

      I disagree with the Scottish Greens on many things but something needs to be done about the state of public transport in Glasgow.

      While roads, rail and its underground are having millions spent on upgrades and improvements, its privatised bus service is shocking and need to be taken back into public ownership.

      Bus routes can be joined up, cover more areas and be more frequent to give people the option of leaving their cars at home, create less congestion and reduce emissions.

    309. Steve ashton says:

      So…. Are we leaving tonight? UK law was clear that 11.00pm tonight was the leaving date. The EU granted an extension but the UK law needed a changing to permit that. Have I missed the bit where treez laid the revised timetable and mps voted to approve? Or is it due to be brought in all the turmoil expected today in the House? Hope someone can point me in a sane direction… Thanks!

    310. robertknight says:

      Given that the Demented Ulster Puritans are likely to give Theresa’s deal the coup de grâce it deserves, would it be fair to say that, given how much their Confidence & Supply deal has cost, the PM was DUPed? 🙂

    311. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      Theresa May, the prototype of failed artificial intelligence. The software is stuck in a loop, its programming is deficient, it has not the cognitive reasoning to escape this loop.

      Indeed. I always found where realtime software interfaces to hardware and the real world, unexpected looping was the most probable failing. Looping code should have multiple escape paths and conditions. If someone were to email me her source code, I’m sure a few tweaks here and there would improve performance. 🙂


      iF {no one is listening}
      THEN {say something different}

    312. IZZIE says:

      That may have been the speech of Ian Blackford’s life.

    313. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see you are making a concious effort not to trigger me. Best to. 😉

    314. Dr Jim says:

      As Ian Blackford begins to ladle into the PM she runs from the chamber

      Fight against the jeers shouts and even threats during Ian Blackfords speech I’ve never heard him use the word Independence so many times causing some Scottish Tories to become incandescent and almost apoplectic with rage and you would think they might have noticed their own poll ratings in Scotland or indeed their result in the Clackmannanshire by election

    315. Dr Jim says:

      Fighting 11:20am

    316. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the guddle the Tbot has made of things. Time for a bit of Cognitive Science and bit Strategic Management theory? I’ll make a conscious effort to avoid further typos. 😉

      Morality and Cognitive Science

      Models of Mind That Are Implied by Cognitive Science

      Cognitive science and phenomenal consciousness: A dilemma, and how to avoid it

      Cognitive Neurosciences and Strategic Management: Challenges and Opportunities in Tying the Knot

    317. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Just in case TMays WA doesn’t pass this afternoon here are the ramifications:

      “Under the European Council decision, in the event that the withdrawal agreement is approved by the House of Commons by 29 March 2019 AT THE LATEST, the extension will be until 22 May 2019. In the event that the withdrawal agreement is not approved by the House of Commons by 29 March 2019, the extension will be until 12 April 2019. In that event, the UK will indicate a way forward before 12 April 2019, for consideration by the European Council.”

    318. call me dave says:

      I’m catching up on Blackford’s speech (45mins behind on Parliament TV Playback).

      Lots of home truths there and welcoming words to most Scots.

      They don’t like it these unionist parties on the other benches.

      Not long now. 🙂

    319. Bob Mack says:

      If I wanted Scotland to be an independent country ( which I do), and I was leader of the SNP today, I would order my troops to back Mrs May’s deal today.

      The end result would be that the English public ,and indeed several prominent Brexiteer MPS would demand to be separated.

      The anger down south would be phenomenal.

      Then again I’m not a politician,just spiteful on occasion.

    320. Sarah says:

      @robertknight at 11.09 🙂 🙂

      The DUPlicitous DUPed in DUPlicate!

    321. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cognitive Science isn’t more hippy, feminist, bollocks. Our thought processes are bound up with our individual biology and cultural identity, they are EMBODIED. Here’s some Philosophy of Mind and Business Ethics and stuff to prove it.

      This is another CORE topic.

      What Cognitive Science Tells Us About Ethics and The Teaching of Ethics


      A relatively new and exciting area of collaboration has begun between philosophy of mind and ethics. This paper attempts to explore aspects of this collaboration and how they bear upon traditional ethics. It is the author’s contention that much of Western moral philosophy has been guided by largely unrecognized assumptions regarding reason, knowledge and conceptualization, and that when examined against empirical research in cognitive science, these assumptions turn out to be false — or at the very least, unrealistic for creatures with our cognitive structures.

      The fundamental tension between the Western idea of morality (as basically rule-following) and the way in which people actually confront and experience moral dilemmas is a result of our failure to take the insights of cognitive psychology seriously. This failure has had a dramatic impact on not only how we teach ethics, but how we attempt to live out lives.

      Economic Growth, Cognitive Psychology, Empirical Research, Cognitive Science, Moral Philosophy

      Moral Imagination: Implications of Cognitive Science for Ethics

      Beyond Point-and-Shoot Morality:
      Why Cognitive (Neuro) Science Matters for Ethics

      Mark Johnson: Moral Imagination

    322. CameronB Brodie says:

      Do push your luck. 🙂

    323. Liz g says:

      Ah,I think I’m getting the point of what May is up to today!
      Hilliray Ben was explaining how this vote was really a denial of the ability to take part in the EU elections vote.
      Which means that the ruling Joanna Cherry and co won to revoke and stay in unilaterally could be in doubt , ( because it’s considered illegal to be in the EU if the UK have not taken part in those elections ) without going back to the Court which there is no time to do.
      SO….. It really would be Mays deal or no deal cause parliament couldn’t over rule and revoke!!

    324. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. This one was embedded in the “Europe, let’s continue our love affair” video.


      Heidi Allen is made interim leader of ”Change UK”, formerly known as the independent group. Too bad that they’ll have to think of changing the name of their political party in the not too distant future.

    325. K1 says:

      Yes Liz, which is explained in simple language from one of the links that Nana posted early evening last night:

      ‘Thanks Nana, .

      Here’s, is what ah think is the most straightforward language that explains what tomorrow’s debacle is about from one of your links: ( )

      This absolutely fits what ah thought was going on, in that they are a bunch of shady bastards:

      ‘John Worth

      ‘It’s designed narrowly to fulfil the European Council’s criteria so as to set 22 May as exit date.

      But then the government would just sit on its hands until 12 April, and once that date is passed there would be no way back for UK as it couldn’t organise an EP election.

      Once you are beyond 12 April, asking for a further extension to the #Article50 period would be a legal nightmare.

      So then, after 12 April, May just has to go “It’s My Deal or No Deal”.

      So MPs must absolutely NOT fall for this ruse tomorrow. It would open the way for them to be subject to pressure and blackmail from May and the government the like which we have not seen so far.

      In short: it’s a despicable move.


    326. galamcennalath says:

      The European Commission says the UK can leave if it passes the WIthdrawal Agreement, but not the Political Declaration.

      Probably unlikely to pass. However …

      This is one of those depressing moments when the Tories’ complete headlessness shines through, again. In the early days of Brexit negotiations the Tories were all about the PD i.e. The future trading regime. Trading was all their loyal media talked about then. No one in the UK wanted to focus on the WA. They wanted the WA out of the way so they could get on to trade talks and the PD. That is why the agreed to the Backstop in Dec’17. Trade, trade, trade.

      And here we are on the original Brexit day with the Tories proposing the WA is passed, but not the PD.

      They are proposing the ultimate Blind Brexit with NO FUTURE PLANs.

    327. Cubby says:

      Kate Hoey Labour MP – what a fraud. She is sitting with the DUP. Just what I always thought. Elected under false pretences – kidding on she is Labour but she is really an orange order supporting no surrender person.

    328. Breeks says:

      Is there a knack to watching Parliament TV? Trying to find anything is always an uphill struggle and usually futile. Software designed by Gandalf… You shall not pass!

    329. Liz g says:

      Oh fur fuck sake….
      The DUP really have no understanding of the Westminster system they want to rule over them..
      They don’t seem to realise that in a few years time after some negative publicity in N.Ireland to trash their support.
      The next government in Westminster could go back and negotiate a Treaty change and put that border in the Irish sea if they want to and there fuck all the DUP could do about it…
      If Westminster think it will please the English voters to do so they will, the EU won’t argue to stop them….
      If Westminster think it would make thing’s easier for trade they will,the EU won’t stop them…
      They really are that stupid…… Especially if they think that Westminster really mean it when they say they care and if they think for a New York minute the voters in Great Britain care either…. The voter’s will probably care more about access to Spain,cause they don’t holiday in N.Ireland….. Dum disnay quite describe it delusional mibb!

    330. call me dave says:


      Can’t get parliament tv to work for the last hour.

      I’m Stuck on Ian Blackford giving way to Anna Soubry at 10:52hrs 🙁

    331. Liz g says:

      K1 @ 12.01
      Thanks K1,will take a look later.
      I was typing and thinking ” yer paranoia is showing Liz”

    332. Petra says:

      Iain Blackford’s speech, with interventions, from 10:43 to 11:07am.

      Joanna Cherry telling them to ”shut up…. Join the mob outside” 10:12 / 10:13am.

    333. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – copy this link. Takes you to the HoC page. click on “Play Event”. If there is a debate in the Commons it will start to play. If the whole of Europe has logged in you might find it buffers sometimes.

    334. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Think you’re funny? OK, I’ve run out of off-the-cuff Evolutionary Psychology, so here’s some more Cognitive Science and Moral Philosophy and stuff.

      The Moral Imagination: The Art and Soul of Building Peace

      Embodied Morality
      Protectionism, Engagement and Imagination

      Review – Moral Imagination

      Beyond Sacrificial Harm: A Two-Dimensional Model of Utilitarian Psychology

    335. SilverDarling says:

      @callmedave 12.22 pm

      Try clearing your cache and cookies. I find if I go back and forward I get stuck on certain bits until I clear all my browsing data and start again.

    336. starlaw says:

      When this is over the Tories will turn on DUP with a vengeance. It would be in the best interests of all in NI to re-unite with the South as fast as they can and escape the Tory wrath that will descend on NI because of the actions of the DUP.

    337. Bob Mack says:

      Listening to the Brexit debate and it becomes very clear if this was a boxing match then Westminster is hanging on the ropes to stay upright..

      How will it end? Who knows because I don’t. Rabb making a pitch for the leadership by announcing his intent to vote for Mrs May in statesman like tones. Fake of course. He wants her out and wants her job.That is why he will vote for her.

    338. mountain shadow says:

      Well, the Labour MP for Poplar has just said that he’s voting for the deal at 2.30pm. His constituency voted 67% to remain the EU.

      If Labour MPs like that are voting with the Torys, they could get this through with Labour support.

      I hope Ian Blackford has a letter from the FM in his jacket to deliver the PM if and as soon as they vote is won by the Government.

    339. Socrates MacSporran says:


      So wee Douglas Ross is going to sell-out Scotland by backing Brexit in the big vote.

      Let’s hope, as someone who spent ten happy years covering St Mirren for the local Paisley paper, that that’s the only huge mistake he makes this week.

      Wee Dougie is Assistant Referee 1 to Willie Collum, for tomorrow’s St Mirren v Dundee game.

      Maybe they are planning to punish Paisley for electing wee Mhairi Black.

    340. Maria F says:

      mountain shadow says:
      29 March, 2019 at 12:49 pm

      “If Labour MPs like that are voting with the Torys, they could get this through with Labour support”

      Well history tells us that it is always the case: no matter labour’s “official” position in the matter, there will be always just about enough labour Mps to support the tories at their hour of need to pass whatever it is they want to pass by voting with them or by abstaining, no matter how damaging, no matter how toxic and no matter how embarrassing for labour that is.

      Labour is no longer an opposition party, and worse, they are not even bothering in acting like one.

    341. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      mountain shadow @ 12:49:

      If Labour MPs like that are voting with the Torys, they could get this through with Labour support.

      This is what I’ve always feared. I don’t trust those two-faced enabling weasels an inch. Just another facet of the same cozy cartel.

      But soon enough we shall see what they are made of.

    342. Scottish Steve says:

      So MPs rejected May’s deal twice but they also rejected all of the 8 alternative votes. What the hell is it MPs want exactly? What an absolute farce.

    343. Bob Mack says:

      Rumour mill is that Labour MPS are being offered up to £100 million for their constituency to back May’s deal.

      That is about twice what it would usually take to buy their vote

    344. SilverDarling says:

      So depressing watching this debate. If Labour MPs vote this through there can be no way for them.

    345. SilverDarling says:

      no way back*

    346. call me dave says:


      I was doing the clearing out cookies and cashe thing as you suggested.

      Worked fine and back to (not enjoying) the debate.

      This looks like a very close run thing.

      Bribes for labour MPs to spend in their constituencies now that the DUP have not coughed up. Nobody blinks an eye anymore? 🙁

    347. K1 says:

      I’m going to make a prediction: the gov will lose this vote today.

      The usual suspects in the Labour party are just that…there aren’t enough of them. No DUP and plenty Tory backbenchers will vote it down.

      caveat: indy is on if they do get it through.

    348. SilverDarling says:

      @call me dave

      Always worth a try, the more IT literate will have other options if it hadn’t worked.

      Yep, she might even do it if enough Labour MPs turn. I am amazed at the gall of some of them still trying to get at the SNP as if they are the ones who hold all the cards.

    349. K1 says:

      When has any bribe…ever actually gone to the constituency of the recipient? People fall for that crap kinda deserve all that’s coming if it does by this means, ensure an MP’s vote.

    350. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 13:40:

      caveat: indy is on if they do get it through.


      And if she loses? Just more of the same next week =aargh!=, or resignation and a UKGE?

    351. Fergus Green says:

      Diedre Brock telling it like it is:

      “We have a prime minister that thinks no will turn to yes if you only ask half of the question.

      “And worse is to come if she ever manages to muster enough support to resign to be replaced by a more vicious version of the Bullingdon club.”

      Referring to Labour as “idiots”, she adds: “They stand on the wrong side of history and on the interests of people they represent.”

      And on the vote, she says: “This pile of manure we are being offered is the appetiser of the slurry to come.”

    352. Proud Cybernat says:

      THREE TIMES in the last 2 hours BBC R2 has played “There’ll be bluebirds over the White CLiffs of Dover”!!!!

      Going mental here. Very soon it could be more than fucking bluebirds going over those cliffs.

    353. Macart says:

      ‘Back Brexit deal or open ‘chasm of distrust’ Fox tells MPs’

      Oh Jeez! He’s a bit late for that. 🙄

    354. call me dave says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Tories playing ‘Hotel California’ & sobbing in their champers!

      ‘You can check out any time you like,
      But you can never leave!’

    355. SilverDarling says:

      Theresa May cannot help herself, that was utterly uncalled far that rant at the SNP there rewriting the SNP stance on CAP and CFP.

      If only everyone watched this stuff.

    356. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 14:01,

      Just the latest example, one of many. The media has been full of “we have to respect the Leavers because there’ll be serious trouble from them if we don’t, and to hell with the Remainers, who aren’t any trouble at all”. (They just have friendly marches and join petitions.)

      Even though there are very likely more Remainers than Leavers now, but just shush! about that.

      Democracy BritNat style.

      Somebody on the lunchtime R4 news was saying the UK now needs a new constitutional framework. I wonder where he has been? (In some comfy English cocoon somewhere fot the last n years, I suppose.) We had all that in the wake of IR1, the usual leader articles in the “quality press” declaiming that a new constitutional settlement was going to emerge from the indy challenge, and look what actually happened.

      And so it will be all over again, if we let it.

      The only challenge that will have a lasting effect on the English body politic is Scotland actually leaving. That will be the biggest contribution we can make to their future wellbeing.

    357. Thepnr says:

      May loses again by 58.

    358. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING: The Maybot loses MV3. Likely to call GE. Still no Brexit clarity for First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, to call IndyRef2.

    359. Thepnr says:

      Theresa May looks like she plans on having an MV4.

    360. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      TMay loses:

      Ayes: 249

      Noes: 391

      Section 13 (1) (b) of The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 falls.

    361. mountain shadow says:

      She must have no sense of shame.

      If Westminster cannot decide then the people must.

    362. call me dave says:

      Jeremy: GE might get what he wishes …then he’ll wish he hadn’t!


      Blackford for A50 revocation.

    363. Sarah says:

      @CameronbBrodie. We can laugh now the gov’t has lost again!!

    364. Thepnr says:

      Donald Tusk tweets:

      In view of the rejection of the Withdrawal Agreement by the House of Commons, I have decided to call a European Council on 10 April. #Brexit

      I take this to mean that by 10th or 11th at the latest the Government will have to go back to the EU with proposals acceptable to if it seeks a further extension or accept that it’s all over unless at the last minute parliament manages to revoke Article 50 by the 12th April.

    365. Thepnr says:

      Rees-Mogg voted for Mays deal after saying he would only do so if the DUP backed it, all 10 DUP voted against the deal as they said they would.

    366. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye @ Thepnr looks about right.

      As per:

      “…….In the event that the withdrawal agreement is not approved by the House of Commons by 29 March 2019, the extension will be until 12 April 2019. In that event, the UK will indicate a way forward before 12 April 2019, for consideration by the European Council.”

    367. Essexexile says:

      Get ready for the can to be given a mighty good down the road in two weeks time. A lengthy extension, everything still in the table for months and months.
      Could the EU postpone elections? Tories are arrogant enough to expect them to.
      No idea where this leaves indyref2. Another long summer of sitting and waiting looks odds on.

    368. Habib Steele says:

      SNP MPs are wasting their breath, their time and Scotland’s time in Westminster. Once Brexit takes place the English government of the UK is likely to act to disempower Scotland even more than they have done. The House of Lords have already had the first reading of the Act of Union Bill, intended to prevent Scottish independence. ( I think that after Brexit this bill will be quickly progressed.

      The Scottish MPs in Westminster need to withdraw and join with the Scottish Parliament in revoking the Treaty and the Act of Union. immediately appeal to the EU and the UN for support, and hold a confirmatory referendum. Then as an independent state negotiate with the Government of England Wales and Northern Ireland (not the UK because Scotland’s independence will end the UK) for a just partition of the assets of the old UK and what share, if any, we take of its debts. Former Ambassador Craig Murray tells of how this can be done legally under International Law.

    369. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 2.41
      Even after we leave Robert J, I don’t think the voter’s in England are anywhere near demanding the change they need.
      I’d wager any legislation whither Scotland is still in or not will contain the phrase ” Nothing in this Act Affects The Sovereignty of the Westminster Parliament ”
      And that phrase is the lock on their power and the insurance that, nothing is really changing, and it being only a cosmetic excercise… AKA A self denying ordnance…

      When they produce their ” new ” Act of Union during indyref two that phrase will be in there…Just you wait and see!
      We should always always answer that it’s no “Acts” of the Union that’s our issue….. It’s the Treaty itself…..
      Its a shit Treaty for Scotland and we are dissolving it.

    370. galamcennalath says:

      A prediction.

      There will be votes – perhaps EURef2, perhaps a GE. Those votes will be left open to manipulation and undermining, again, because the electoral laws that exist are ineffectual. It pays to cheat in the existing system. The benefits gained by illegal over spending and illegal use of personal data outweighs any fines. No one seems to go to jail. And the system is awash with mysterious dark money.

    371. Ottomanboi says:

      As the Ukanian parliament has seemingly reached a cul de sac lit a bag’s arse, the only way out is supposedly a GE or as some desire, a Euroref#2
      The possibility that that might make no tangible difference, in England, is an ‘interesting’ scenario.
      Whatever happens the issue of whether SNP mps ought to hang out at dysfunctional Westminster, to no seeming effect, is worth consideration. Scotland need less chatter, more progress. Waiting for England perhaps, in their good time to go European isn’t progress.
      We’re being played for mugs and saps….it’s their problem, not ours.

    372. Breeks says:

      Thanks for the advice, but Parliament TV just doesn’t work for me. Maybe my network isn’t up to it.

      I did however catch up with Ian Blackford’s speech from his Twitter feed.

      The time to come home is sounding like it might be very near.

      Maybe, if there’s time, we should fashion a ceremonial pin from Scottish gold, maybe from the Crawford Moor, just like Scotland’s Crown, and celebrate the pin as a relic of the occasion, the pin that could be heard dropping when Scotland announced it was exiting Westminster for good.

    373. Dr Jim says:

      The SNP doesn’t speak for Scotland says Ian Murray to Ian Blackford

      Well actually they do that’s why they’re the government in Scotland, and who came up with this meaningless denial phrase anyway because if Theresa May speaks for the UK then the FMs of both Scotland and Wales speak for those parts they represent, it’s why they were elected even though Ian Murray doesn’t like it

    374. Cubby says:


      What a joke. It’s the EU that is in control ar present.

      It’s time Scots took back control from Westminster and ended this offensive UK Union by terminating the Treaty of Union.

    375. frogesque says:

      @Breeks 3.17

      I would happily donate a few grams of Scottish gold for the project. Not from Crawford Muir I’m afraid (hersel’ snaffled that for a ring!) but I could spare some Kildonan or Glenorchy.

    376. Cubby says:

      Dr Doom strikes again.

      “No idea where this leaves indyref2. Another long summer of sitting and waiting looks odds on.”

      Yeh we know we’re doomed – doomed I tell you Doomed.

    377. Gary45% says:

      Aye Breakfast means Breakfast.

    378. call me dave says:

      Sarah Smith ‘Scottish’ correspondent in Glasgow on the MV3 failure for BBC Auntie darn Sarf.

      Says SNP abstained! Yesterday on the customs union motion.

      But if customs union + staying single market are offered together it is possible that an agreement could be reached on Monday.

      A50 revocation Nagh!

    379. Dr Jim says:

      But but why aren’t we getting a *No Deal* Brexit
      because that’s better than a bad deal

      She said so 3.000 times

    380. call me dave says:

      Ditto above says WM interviewer… Re: rumours about SNP.


      Blackford live says longer time needed extension to A50.

      GE and peoples vote needed.

      But if Customs Union and Single Market if offered asks interviewer ?

      Blackford ‘Waffle.. waffle’ not committing to anything. 🙂

      Got a plane to catch.

    381. Cactus says:

      “The ‘UK’ will Brexit on the 29th March 2019 at 11pm”

      PM intends to resign, THIS ukBrexit is cancelled

      “Strong and stable…” enter Room 101

      SOS Westminster party time

      Ah ha ha ha ha ha

      It’s Friday!

    382. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      Sarah Smith ‘Scottish’ correspondent … Says SNP abstained! Yesterday on the customs union motion.

      Clearly there is a BritNat agenda to muddle CU alone with CU+SM in the minds of those who might be susceptible to muddling.

      Visitations by trolls to this site have even been pushing that one.

      Coincidence that the BBC and BritNat trolls here sing from the same sheet? Decide for yersels.

    383. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      Maybe the SNP would accept a CU + SM deal provided it was subject to a confirmatory referendum with the other option being Remain 🙂

    384. Luigi says:

      Almost time to pull the trigger folks.

      Man, what a time to be alive. 🙂

    385. Jack Murphy says:



      ” All 13 Scottish Conservative MPs have backed Theresa May’s EU withdrawal deal in a Commons vote – but could not prevent it being defeated.

      The PM’s proposals had previously been opposed by Aberdeen South MP Ross Thomson and his Moray colleague Douglas Ross.
      Mr Thomson and Mr Ross confirmed ahead of the vote that they would now be backing it.

      But MPs ultimately rejected the withdrawal deal by 344 votes to 286.

      The deal was opposed by all SNP, Scottish Labour and Liberal Democrats MPs, as well as 34 Conservative MPs and the DUP, which props up Mrs May’s minority government………..”

      From BBC Scotland Politics on-line.

    386. manandboy says:

      It appears that if Scotland was a cork, it would be floating on the surface of a swimming pool of oil.

      Giant West of Shetland oil field on track to start production in next quarter

      HURRICANE Energy has said it expects to generate $200 million cash annually from production from a giant field West of Shetland and predicted its success in the area could be a game-changer for the oil and gas industry.

      The independent said it is on course to start production from the Lancaster field in the first half on schedule and budget in a development that could have big ramifications.

      Estimated to contain around 500 million barrels oil, Lancaster lies in an under-explored geological area West of Shetland which Hurricane’s founder Robert Trice realised had huge potential.

      Hurricane Energy chief Robert Trice has led the firm on a pioneering exploration drive off Shetland
      Hurricane Energy chief Robert Trice has led the firm on a pioneering exploration drive off Shetland.

      The start of production from the field would put Hurricane on the way to generating massive amounts of cash that it could use to bring other finds on its acreage into production.

      The company’s progress has already helped stoked interest in the West of Shetland area as oil and gas firms look to make the kind of bumper finds that can underpin long term production.These are increasingly hard to make in well-drilled areas of the North Sea.

      Read more: Bumper gas find stokes excitement about West of Shetland frontier

      However, industry leaders said news yesterday that Neptune Energy and BP had approved plans to develop the Seagull find off eastern Scotland showed the North Sea remained an attractive investment opportunity.

      Hurricane’s chairman Steven McTiernan said developments over the next year could be “game changing” for the firm and its shareholders and also for the wider UK oil industry.

      Hurricane may be able to confirm the potential of another find in coming months.

      It will drill appraisal wells on the Greater Warwick Area after North Sea heavyweight Spirit Energy agreed to fund up to $387m work on the acreage.

      Spirit, which is part-owned by Centrica, bought into Greater Warwick last year, describing it as one of the last known world-class oil development opportunities in the UK.

      Founded by Mr Trice in 2005, Hurricane is one of a range of North Sea-focused independents that have helped generate interest in the United Kingdom Continental Shelf amid challenging market conditions.”

    387. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Ian Murray speaks for Ian Murray.

      He is a Blairite.

      He is a British Nationalist.

      He is a BritNat Labour in Scotland trougher.

      I assume ‘Radical Labours’ Dick Leontard will ensure he is deselected (or is the word ‘purged’?) for not being a follower of the fragrant Jizzy Corbyn and all things People’s Worker. A sorry end to The Commissar of Red Morningside.

      Now before you feel too sorry for him, Ian will no doubt get a column in the Record and regular invites onto BBC/SKY etc.

    388. Effijy says:

      Ian Murray- half man half unionist beast
      Voting for a half witted Tory PM’s
      Half Deal.

      Half a mind never to listen to a Westminster politician again.!

    389. call me dave says:

      @Thepnr says:

      Aye that thought crossed my mind too. Mind that’s a bit too much to hope for.

      There’s just not enough chocolate raisins or popcorn in the UK!


    390. Cactus says:

      As the ukWestminster gov is in such disarray and chaos, it seems now only right and proper that all powers should immediately transfer to the only other signatory of the UK… Yes that’s right and that’s our strong and stable functioning government in Edinburgh

      The Scottish Government will then do what is best both for Scotland and the rest of the ‘United Kingdom’

      The Scottish Government will announce…

      1) Independence referendum 2
      2) Revoke Article 50
      3) Reunification of Ireland referendum

      Take that one to heart!

    391. Thepnr says:

      Journalists must speculate, this one’s from the Sun though so wouldn’t take too much notice of what he says 🙂

      No10 adamant the PM’s deal is not dead, yet. PM will try to bring it back a 4th time next week – probably in a run off with Indicative Vote winner. So; MPs’ final choice will be May’s deal v Customs Union?

    392. sandy says:

      Some time ago, it was stated that the SNP would “stir the shit” at WM. Aren’t we doing well. Keep it up, lads & lasses.The bumpheous prats of the so-called rulers of the dwindling English empire are completely incapable of acting like human beings. Gove or Johnson as PM. Bring it on. How I would love to be able to kick them up the ass & prevent their ever being able to set foot again in Scotland, especially that skeekit tractor, Gove. IMO he has the looks & personality to personify this.
      Ponder this. Should you have a painful pimple or boil on your ass, what do you do? Yes, you do your damnedest to get rid of it.

      How I detest ( what they think they are) the ruling classes.

      More rants may follow.

    393. CameronB Brodie says:

      Proud Cybernat
      I can’t remember if Sky or the BBC, but one of their presenters was already selling the myth that Brexit will be done and dusted once the voting is finished. This can’t be down to incompetent ignorance, this is selling authoritarian capitalism (see George Orwell).

    394. Scott says:

      Government buys £12m luxury New York apartment for diplomat

      The UK government has spent $15.9m (£12m) on a luxury New York apartment for a British diplomat to live in while he negotiates trade deals with the US.

      This is a bloody disgrace.

      Is TM still in charge.

    395. IZZIE says:

      3rd of May the English local government elections – what price a GE?

    396. gus1940 says:

      Surely all decent wingers will agree that Mark Francois is a complete w***hole.

    397. yesindyref2 says:

      So, May’s WA defeated by 344 votes to 286. With 35 SNP MPs of course, if they had backed the deal, it would have been passed by 321 votes to 309.

      There’s been quite a few have said the SNP should back the deal in return for an S30 for Indy Ref 2, and this result backs up that the SNP made the difference.


      1). You’d have to trust May to put an S30 through.
      2). You’d have to trust May’s ABILITY to put an S30 through.

      Whatever anyone’s views on trusting May, her ability to get ANY legislation through the HoC is practically nil.

      So it never was an option at all.

    398. K1 says:

      So she’s closed the gap to 58. Which is what this exercise now seems to be about, a whittling down process. The run off between the 2 most voted for options on the indicative votes and her deal is the likely scenario for next week’s shenanigans.

      The SNP won’t vote for just a CU with confirmatory vote, they won’t vote for her deal. Revocation of A50 doesn’t have enough on board to get it through.

      The only way I can see remedy for the last throw of the dice from our point of view is that a confirmatory vote has ‘remain’ as an option on the ballot.

      Scotland would vote then for that option and again we would be in the exact same position as we are currently in.

      Being outnumbered by England who will vote for ‘her deal’ ior ‘softer’ (CU only) brexit n a confirmatory vote…imv.

      Indy is still on the table.

    399. CameronB Brodie says:

      “The only challenge that will have a lasting effect on the English body politic is Scotland actually leaving. That will be the biggest contribution we can make to their future wellbeing.”

      The British political Establishment is out of touch but are dug in like the parasitic ticks that many of them emulate. The people of England will not choose rational self-determination over parliamentary sovereignty until they learn it is in there best interests to do so. This is one of the reasons why pluralism of thought and the teaching of economic pluralism, are being systematically removed from the English education system. It won’t be long until English culture is unable to think outwith the Neo-liberal British nationalist boundaries set by that Thatcherite wank, Michael Gove.

    400. K1 says:

      And of course May is on the way out, would the next Tory leader still in office ‘honour’ a previous administrations promise to gain the votes to get their deal through.

      The mantra is what the mantra needs to be in all instances dealing with Tory cabal:

      Never Trust a Tory.

    401. K1 says:

      We should only ever back a potential ‘Labour’ gov loose alliance with negotiated S30 in place ‘if’ a GE was called. Don’t recall anyone on here saying that voting for her deal wrt WA should be predicated upon S30 order?

      As far as I’m aware CU and SM is the compromise position of the SNP/Scotgov since the get go after UKexit. We were never going to vote for a Tory UKexit in exchange for a S30 order.

    402. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Just for the record the Record has a weekly page for Ian Blackford, a weekly page for “Loki” (Darren McGarvey), a fervent independence supporter and a weekly page for Annie Brown, a fervent independence supporter who is screaming for Indyref2 this week. There is no page for any Labour (or Tory) figure in the Record.

      Only nutcase stuff in the Record now is from the usual suspects in its Readers letters.

      So can we recognise that the Record is giving us a fair showing now please and contribute to its Letters page if we want to work on that

    403. wull2 says:

      Thank God it is Friday and some other reason to drink

    404. manandboy says:

      If it was true 3 months ago, then it’s even more so now.

      There is no going back to the status quo for the Union now.

      History knows only one way.

      Spring comes in its own good time – so too Independence.

    405. mr thms says:

      The SNP should hold out for remaining in the EU. There are precedents. For example, Greenland which is a territory of Denmark voted to leave the EU. A reverse Greenland is doable.

    406. K1 says:

      ‘So, May’s WA defeated by 344 votes to 286. With 35 SNP MPs of course, if they had backed the deal, it would have been passed by 321 votes to 309.’

      58 votes short, there’s only 35 SNP Mp’s. It would still have failed ‘with’ SNP bloc voting for it.

    407. yesindyref2 says:

      Even if there was a legal document, and every single minister signed it, the rate of sacking and resigning means few of the signatures would be left, but also Miller shows that it’s the UK Parliament has the power, not the UK Government.

    408. frogesque says:


      One more for me is one less for you.

      Yes, it could have got through if the SNP had gone doolally and voted for May’s porridge.

      Like that was ever going to happen!

    409. Lenny Hartley says:

      K1, nope if if you take 35 off 344 and add them to 286 you get for 321 for and 309 against

    410. yesindyref2 says:

      I think the SNP voted against it, rather than abstained, and from the figure if even eveyr single other MP ahd actually voted rather than abstaining, at least 16 SNP MPs voted against, as 344 + 286 = 630, meaning only 19 MPs abstained.

      So presumably all SNP MPs voted against. Meaning +35 for nay, -35 for aye. Nett swing 70 votes if they voted the other way around.

    411. Cactus says:

      Wiz thinking…

      Does Theresa May ever draft-up a pre-prepared ‘winning speech’

      Or does she default in knowing to a pre-drafted losing speech

      When did them muppets last win at anything he he

      ScotGov will always be in control

      A howde hey there EU xx

    412. manandboy says:

      wull2 says:”Thank God it is Friday and some other reason to drink”

      Lucky for some, wull2, Lent has been doubly difficult this year for us wine drinkers. With Brexit, I suspect we’ve all been doing ‘lent’ whether we like it or not.
      But with the right frame of mind, waiting is a good time to renew one’s strength. But it’s rarely easy.

      Lent comes from the word ‘lencten’, meaning springtime, and reflects Nature’s passing from the ‘death’ of Winter to new growth in Spring, part of which is pruning (or ‘giving up’ stuff) to encourage the growth.

    413. K1 says:

      Yes they did all vote against. And yes my arithmetic is shite. I forgot to then add the 35 back onto their side. Not mortified…but definitely a bit stupid. 🙂

    414. Hamish100 says:

      The Daily Record still has unionists in the driving seat. A few scraps here and there does not make a Vow.

      It is pro Unionist and doesn’t get a penny from me. The Herald receives no support. The National and the Sunday National gets my cash.

      End of.

    415. Thepnr says:

      Brexit supporting protestors are singing Jerusalem outside Westminster. Oh dear 🙁

    416. call me dave says:

      Sky news: Rumours.

      Delegation of senior MPs trying to persuade the PM to go for a ‘No Deal’.

      Maybe just a second league Spanish Inquisition visit. 🙂

      Hmm! Hope lead pellets in a sock cosh and a bright light in the eyes are not getting used.

      So much for a period of calm reflection over the weekend. 🙁

    417. CameronB Brodie says:

      Speaking as a divisive grievance separatist, I buy the occasional Viz.

    418. Bobp says:

      Habib steele 3.03pm. You’ve got that spot on. After brexit a disembowelled holyrood just like stormont.

    419. Bobp says:

      CameronBbrodie. I love viz. Lol

    420. Thepnr says:

      There were 34 SNP MP’s voted against May’s deal. I believe one MP has leave of absence due to a family bereavement.

      It’s worth getting the app CommonsVotes for your phone usually gives the results of votes about 15 minutes after they’re announced and includes a breakdown by party for Ayes and Noes.

      PS May’s deal would have gotten through if she had the support of her own party. There were 34 Tories who voted against her deal.

    421. yesindyref2 says:

      Swings are very confusing. You hear these pundits say “It needs a swing of 6%”.

      Do they mean the (say) Tory vote needs to increase by 3%, or does it need to increase by 6%? I usually have to look at the figures to work it out.

    422. CameronB Brodie says:

      Every bit as accurate as the MSM, in it’s account of society, IMHO. 😉

    423. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I am starting to see operation 1979 being ratcheted-up around Westminster.

      Just as, since back then, the Labour Party has tried tor blame the SNP for Jim Callaghan’s government losing power – rather than the Labour MPs who would not back their government; I now see Tories trying to blame the SNP for “LINO” being walked all over this afternoon.

      But,had the 3 Tory MPs who voted against her deal voted for it, LINO would have won.

      Still, easier to blame the “Sweaties,” than face reality.

    424. Bobp says:

      My english nephew moved to Scotland from dorset just before christmas. He loves Scotland, staying at my sis’s at the moment but looking to buy his own property. Said to his mum on the phone the other day, WE (lol) are going to get our independence mum. Yup, his dad, my brother ,certainly brought him up well. A good english yes voter.

    425. CameronB Brodie says:

      Swings are easy, you just need to use your legs to get some momentum going. 😉

    426. HandandShrimp says:

      I see May snubbed Ian again today. It is therefore worth mentioning that those 35 SNP votes would have got May over the line. Not once has she seriously reached out to anyone but the DUP.

    427. Bobp says:

      CameronBbrodie.defo .spoilt brat, sid the sexist. 8ace.yup lol.

    428. yesindyref2 says:


      Similar to roundabouts, basically.

    429. galamcennalath says:

      Sensible words from James Naughie …

      “Somebody put it to me the other day, look, in any other European country, the Conservative party wouldn’t exist in its current form. The ERG, Jacob Rees-Mogg’s group, in France would be in the National Front because that’s what they believe, and in Germany they’d be in the AfD. It’s only because of our system that the carapace of this party keeps them in, and I think on both sides of the aisle that can’t last.”

      … Tories, apparently, don’t like some home truths.

      But he’s totally spot on. The stupid WM FPTP system encourages very broad churches. And that is why we are in the shit now.

    430. Dave tewart says:

      Time we all agree to giving the English their freedom.
      Let them leave the Union and we can continue as the remaining part of rUK.
      Love the cartoon of the maybot crucified on the word breXit. Don’t think the cartoonist realises the St Andrew’s cross message.

    431. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 its easy if they need a swing of 6% then their vote needs to go up 3% and the main opposition down 3% (I think 🙂 )

    432. Lenny Hartley says:

      Basically Westminster (England) has followed Scotland , preference is now on constitutional lines not party.
      A GE will solve nothing unless the tories and Labour disband and start up leave and remain parties.

    433. Macart says:

      Been out most of the afternoon and just got back in to the result.

      Mmmm… not unexpected tbh. And the omnishambles continues.

      Checking out other news. I see there’s a bit of chaos outside Westminster t’boot. Seems folks aren’t too happy with their parliamentarians. Who knew?

      Karma. (Also who knew?)

    434. yesindyref2 says:


      I guarantee I won’t remember it 🙂

    435. Galamcennalath

      Sensible words indeed but…. they caused total outrage in the HoC after they were uttered with calls for Naughtie to apologise for his ‘utterly disgraceful’ words and if he did not, he should resign from the BBC – How very dare he tell the truth!!!!

    436. K1 says:

      Paul Sweeney is a lying faced stirring little shite wi no credibility nor honesty…how anyone voted for this little wanker is beyond comprehension.

    437. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. British Labour MP Paul Sweeney. Where is the boundary between political expediency and psychosocial illness?

      Civic pride and political expediency: the enduring founding principles for local government in Germany and England

      P.S. I can link to a shed load of this stuff but I think I’m already pushing my luck. 😉

    438. SilverDarling says:

      The enigma that is the SNP in Westminster.

      They are simultaneously responsible for Brexit and every other vote that the Labour and Tory parties have lost while being powerless and ignored. They ‘do not represent Scotland’ and ‘do not speak for Scotland’ yet they have let Scotland down.

      Make up your mind Unionists.

    439. CameronB Brodie says:

      For example. the Rev. has one of my posts in moderation (@12:32pm), probably because I’m taking up too much space. Anyway, I think it is worth a look once/if it is released. Anyhoo, here are the keywords from one of the papers, just to give you an idea of my line of argument.

      Keywords: empathy, impartiality, moral dilemmas, moral psychology, utilitarianism

    440. ronnie anderson says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Are you advocating that we Independenistas buy/subscribe to the Daily Record because they have a few Yes supporters writing for them , short memory David Clegg is a Unionist , there sales have declined let them go to the wall for their Treachery to Scotland .

    441. Marcia says:

      Good to see that the 34 SNP MP’s at Westminster today voted against May’s deal. John McNally, sadly, has had a family bereavement so was unable to attend otherwise it would have been an even bigger defeat.

    442. orri says:

      The interesting thing about a bill that specifically claims not to change Westminster sovereignty is it can’t justify a claim, should it pass, that that sovereignty extends to Scotland.

      The danger is that it may be amended to remove Scotland’s sovereignty but as lo

    443. orri says:

      The interesting thing about a bill that specifically claims not to change Westminster sovereignty is it can’t justify a claim, should it pass, that that sovereignty extends to Scotland.

      The danger is that it may be amended to remove Scotland’s People’s sovereignty but as the SNP hold the majority of seats here that would only be forced through by an act of “colonial” power. Doing so would probably be the straw that broke the camel’s back as far as the Treaty of Union goes.

    444. Cubby says:

      Someone should tell those demonstrators in London with the placards complaining about parliament etc that they were the people who wanted to take back control to the Westminster parliament. Someone should tell them that the English people are not sovereign but Westminster ( via the crown) is sovereign.

      They need another glorious revolution to take (not back – well I guess it depends if you include the Cromwell era ) control by the people from the Queen and parliament. While they are doing that we can say bye bye. We have our own parliament and Scots are sovereign.

      Confused or what. What a shambles. Vote Tory for diddies like the FUD to govern us.

    445. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan -Hill

      Has the Record come out in support of independence? I don’t read it but I suspect I know the answer.

    446. yesindyref2 says:

      Dave McEwan-Hill’s right. the Record has become way more balanced and even moderate. It’s certainly against the Tories, Brexit shambles, watered-down prescriptions as it had on its front page when I glanced earlier. You don’t have to buy it to follow DMEH’s suggestion of emailing / writing a letter!

    447. yesindyref2 says:

      When we get Indy Ref 2 it’s going to be very difficult for any Scotland-based paper to be as biased as it was last time. Last time Indy started at less than 30%, this time it’s clearly about 50-50, specially with Brexit it’s already over.

      I think we should encourage all that media to be at least impartial, by not ragging on it, if you pardon the pun.

      Who cares what anyone did in Indy Ref 1, we have Independence to win. Action stations, all hands to the pumps. Scotland will sink if we don’t get the fuck out the UK.

    448. Scotspatriot says:

      Sorry Dave McEwan Hill…….like your posts……but I will never buy anything tainted by corrupt London. That includes the Daily Redcoat and the Sunday Cuckoo !

    449. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. letting go of the past. Here’s some free psychotherapy.

      Important Tips on How to Let Go and Free Yourself
      Twelve tips on how to let go so you can have personal freedom.

    450. robbo says:

      I take it the brexiteers and UKIP hired the Orange Order for their parade the day. Didn’t seem to do the trick THOUGH.

      My my there was a few jam roly poly’s on that march- big drum thumpers of the OO

    451. Hamish100 says:

      yesindy2 “The Daily Record is certainly against the Tories”– yip compared to labour. In dealings with the SNP it sides with the tories. IT IS MORE MODERATE? C’mon to who?

      Just think how impartial it was re Alex Salmond. Clegg an his cronies released the allegations – just to maximise disruption of the SNP. Not to support the women concerned (they don’t give a toss in my mind. Was monies promised or given?), nor to ensure due process was followed. Nope it was To maximise disruption of the SNP. FULL STOP.

      Next you guy’s will be saying Brown and Darling are misjudged Independence supporters!!

    452. Dr Jim says:

      If you need to know anything about the countries of the United Kingdom don’t Google or Wiki because they don’t seem to know, the funniest one was that London is the capital city of the United Kingdom, that’s like saying Paris is the capital city of the EU

    453. Sinky says:

      Worth watching Channel Four news on catch up or plus one for exposé of Fishing for Leave links with far right extremists plus Scottish connection

    454. Dr Jim says:

      Push comes to shove between the Tories and Scotland and the Daily Record will back the Tories, they did it last time they’ll do it again

      They didn’t have to do it in the past because they had a nice Labour party buffer to sort it for them

    455. call me dave says:

      Little bit of stuff:

      The Clackmannanshire result demonstrates the limits of unionist tactical voting

    456. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100 “Just think how impartial it was



      Who gives a shit what it was, it’s what it might be that matters

      Let go the past Hamish100, Independence is the future.

    457. Dr Jim says:

      Does anybody think all those foreign lads working on the fishing boats in the North East for the Five Mafia families are demanding Brexit, you’ll never see the media interview any of those lads, and if you did they’d have to cut their pinky off and present it as a token to Don Bertie Armstrong for doing a bad thing or who knows they could end up sleeping with the fishes

    458. jfngw says:

      Good news, Labour want to remind everyone of the 1979 Labour government, rubbish in the streets, unburied bodies, IMF bailout, high inflation and an Scottish referendum result ignored (manipulation of a result that Theresa May wishes she could achieve).

      They seem to forget they increased their seat total in Scotland at that election,they should really be thanking the SNP. It was England they were walloped in.

    459. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Brand loyalty. Time and space for some science of communication?

      A Theoretical Reading on Brand Loyalty – A Psychological Sensory Approach

    460. yesindyref2 says:

      I didn’t know what I’d find, but here it is:

      one irrelevant, one anti, the rest as far as I can be bothered looking past 12 article headlines, basically pro.

    461. Hamish100 says:

      yesindy 2

      So sorry my fault– The Daily Record IS anti-independence and in order of preference supports labour, tories, lib dems, ukip, ANYONE ELSE BUT THE SNP.

      My example of the Alex Salmond issue happened this year. It will return in full force come the Independence or other election to undermine the SNP. Mark my Clegg.

    462. jfngw says:

      @Dr Jim

      It is funny regarding that they assume the capital of the UK is London, I don’t believe this was ever agreed, it is just assumed by England. They take this position because they don’t believe it was a union, but a take over.

    463. SilverDarling says:

      By highlighting the 1979 vote it has reminded Labour that if you overturn a referendum result there are consequences, hence their humming and hawing trying to be all things to all people down south.

      We haven’t forgotten though. And our referendum results in 2014 was not overturned by us despite the BT dirty tactics, but we do want another vote. Has Corbyn even acknowledged we voted differently to remain in the EU?

      We know that Scotland will always be of secondary importance when Labour writes their manifesto. Will Jeremy sacrifice Scotland again for Brexit England? Answers on a postcard…

    464. ronnie anderson says:

      Yesindyref2 I would rather have the Truth & Recriminations committee just now than after Independence .

    465. yesindyref2 says:

      It doesn’t matter if the Record puts the SNP behind Gunga Din and the Cavemen, that does NOT mean they’re anti-independence.

      @ronnie anderson
      It’d be taking part without me, after a little fittening up I’ll be up Ben Lui, Ben More – or Ben Lomond to see if I can find where Jack and Victor have their bothy!

    466. CameronB Brodie says:

      Political logic suggests power is needed before political values can be implemented through policy. Subsequently, JC’s notional priority is to gain power. In order to do so, British Labour must address their “Southern Discomfort”, whereby the party is compelled to compete with the Tories for votes in southern swing marginals. Subsequently, British politics is caught in the gravitational pull of southern England’s predominantly Tory culture.

      Subsequently, British Labour has nothing to offer Scotland other than more of the same old same old.


    467. Iain 2 says:

      I suspect that the daily record will for ever be viewed by the people of Scotland as something to wipe your arse on if you are really desperate and nothing more.

    468. SilverDarling says:


      And in the heartland’s of the North of Broken Brexit England how do the Tories or Labour appeal to the likes of Yaxley-Lennon’s mob? Corbyn and the Tories must be worried about how to attract that vote. Ruth Davidson managed it to an extent here last time but will it work on a bigger scale?

      If there is a GE, the far right may well get some of their candidates elected.

    469. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Socrates MacSporran @ 17:43,

      Yup, you can count on the Labour Party turning on the SNP whenever things get hard for themselves. Facing the wrong way on the field of battle. It takes real (perverse) talent to be so consistently maladroit.

      But when The Cartel needs defending, they are ever-ready. Never mind The People.

    470. SilverDarling says:

      heartlands* FFS

    471. cynicalHighlander says:

      Anyone any news on the two brave souls walkin to London from Edinburgh to distance them from Stu? tongue in cheek.

    472. Bob Mack says:

      just signed the petition on the government website which demands England has the right to an independence referendum.

      Least I could do.

    473. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Let’s look on the bright side, Billy Mitchell and his mates probably did more for the cause of Scottish Independence on the streets of London than anyone else ever has.

      I can just imagine a lot of decent English people seeing them and thinking: “If they’re typical of Scotland – let the Scots go.”

    474. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see the Rev. has spoiled a joke I was planning for later, if that post I mentioned earlier, still hadn’t been released from moderation. For sake of argument, I was going to suggest we name the post Brian. I was then going to ask folk if they knew what to do.

      SPOILER 🙂

    475. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Bob Mack at 8:37 pm.

      You typed,
      “just signed the petition on the government website which demands England has the right to an independence referendum.

      Least I could do.”

      Check out the map at that petition site!

    476. cynicalHighlander says:

      Bob Mack says:
      29 March, 2019 at 8:37 pm

    477. Hamish100 says:

      It doesn’t matter if the Record puts the SNP behind Gunga Din and the Cavemen, that does NOT mean they’re anti-independence.

      Really? Show me how they are?

    478. Thepnr says:

      Channel 4 reporter giving her report from Westminster shows pictures of the Livingston flute band going past and calls them a pipe band FFS.

      Video automatically starts at 22 min in and is about 4 minutes in total.

      There’s also a link to the C4 Fishing for Leave report mentioned earlier in this thread on the same page.

    479. defo says:

      gus1940 says
      “Surely all decent wingers will agree that Mark Francois is a complete w***hole.”

      Indubitably Gus. He’s won competitions. Pretty stiff one’s.
      Southern Cottager of the year, three years running!

      Anyone who disnea like the word ‘Sovereignty’ best look away for the next couple of weeks.(poor Rock)

      The denouement of the debacle is upon us, and our heroes at Westmidden will return home victorious.

      The almost inevitable upcoming election WILL be de-facto IR2.
      How could it not be?
      We, the Scottish people, will decide our own fate.
      The RUKs will be left to the competence of the utterly corrupted
      political system that we’re leaving. (and should never have supped with in the first place!)

      I’d expect a GE sooner rather than later too.

    480. John from Fife says:

      Given that the WA was not passed today in the HOC I’m starting to wonder whether the SNP really want Indy ref 2 or would prefer to be stuck in a never ending Brexit.

    481. ElGordo says:

      Did anybody else just watch the end of the C4 news, where Jon Snow just said:

      – The police are in riot gear outside downing street (the camera panned around and the police are not)

      – I have never seen so many white people in one place

    482. SilverDarling says:

      Just as Unionism has become a unifying characteristic for voters in Scottish elections will Brexit now cross the wealth divide in England & Wales? Maybe voters will hold their noses and vote for UKIP again in a more organised way.

    483. Al-Suart says:

      On topic…

      Fancy adding your own dot to this thread…

      Go on, please join me and add a little colour with beautiful Scots yellow dots and helping add 900 signatures to this petition calling for …


      … to get it to 10,000 and see what UK Govet say in answer ?.

      Am sure this would get the cat chasing the pigeons, or even Hamish the Scots Lion chasing the English Bulldog 🙂

      Seriously, just imagine if England voted to leave the UK. Scotland would get to stay in the EU and the three nations left in the UK could then look at a more even relationship of proper equals with likely end result in Wales – Scotland – Northern Ireland becoming sovereign independent nations in the EU.

      Ya brammer ??

    484. ElGordo says:

      Fair play to C4 tho, John Snow also managed to get the correction in, to the previous report, that it was a flute ban and not a pipe band as reported.

      Unfortunately, probably due to a deluge of complaints from the flute banders rather than the pipe banders..

    485. yesindyref2 says:


      headlines for instance:

      “Scottish Labour MEP calls Nicola Sturgeon’s handling of Brexit ‘top drawer'”

      “Brexit plea as SNP MEP Alyn Smith urges EU to ‘leave a light on’ for independent Scotland”

      “Scottish independence campaigners face perils of People’s Vote hypocrisy”

      “‘Leave a light on’ for independent Scotland, pleads SNP MEP to European leaders”

    486. SilverDarling says:

      Petition for England’s Independence signed. We must help them.

    487. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Joanna Cherry QC MP being called a ("Tractor" - Ed). There’s that cultural chauvinism I’ve been banging on about, and haven’t the Tories done wonders for tolerance in Britain.

      Multiculturalism, Pluralism and Policymaking

    488. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Just signed that petition in favour of England gaining independence from the UK.

      A lot of Scottish support for it. Clearly we are good neighbours, doing our bit to help out the poor, benighted English.

    489. Sinky says:

      Frankie Boyle on fire on BBC2

    490. Iain mhor says:

      I noticed Clacks getting a bit of a shout in the thread.
      Nothing happened in Clackmannanshire.
      Here is a really loooong boring stats post for anyone interested in the “Bellwether” constituency of Clackmannanshire and District. With some reference to national voting in Scotland where applicable and assuming anything other than SNP/Green constitutes a “Unionist” party:

      2019 Clackmannanshire Central By-election(34.7% turnout)
      SNP 40.9%
      Lab 32.9%
      Con 19.8%
      UKP 3.2%
      SGP 2.5%
      LIB 1.7%
      (Indy 43.4% – Unionist 57.6%)

      2018 Clacks North By-election (24.74% turnout) 2092
      SNP 37%
      CON 31.7%
      LAB 23.7%
      LIB 4%
      SGP 3.6%
      (Indy 40.6% – Unionist 59.4%)

      2017 GE – Ochil & S.Perthshire {Clacks} (70.6% turnout)
      SNP 35.3%
      CON 41.5%
      LAB 20%
      LIB 3.2%
      (Indy 35.3% – Unionist 64.7%)

      2017 GE Scotland (turnout 66.4%)
      SNP 36.9
      CON 28.6
      LAB 27.1
      LIB 6.8
      SGP 0.2
      UKP 0.2
      (Indy 37.1% – Unionist 62.7)

      2017 Clackmannanshire Council Elections
      For brevity, percentage of Indy party’s vote only :
      West 40.6%
      North 43.9%
      Central 43.3%
      South 55%
      East 33.5%
      (Mean – 43.26% Indy)

      2016 EU Referendum Clackmannanshire
      Remain 57.7%
      Leave 42.2%

      2016 EU-Ref Scotland
      Remain 62%
      Leave 38%

      2016 Scottish Parliament Constituency Election
      Clacks/Dunblane (59% turnout)
      SNP 47.4%
      CON 23.2%
      LAB 24.9%
      LIB 4.2%
      (Indy 47.4% – Unionist 52.3%)

      2015 GE Scotland
      SNP 50%
      CON 14.9%
      LAB 24.3%
      LIB 7.5%
      SGP 1.3%
      UKP 1.6%
      Other 0.4%
      (Indy 51.3% – Unionist 48.7%)

      2015 GE – Ochil & S.Perth {Clacks}
      SNP 45.9
      CON 20.7
      LAB 28.4
      LIB 2.6
      UKP 2.3
      (Indy 45.9 – Unionist 54%)

      2014 Indyref Scotland (84.59% turnout)
      YES 44.7%
      NO 55.3%

      2014 Indyref – Clackmannanshire (89% turnout)
      YES 46%
      NO 54%

      Knock yerselves out. The only thing that happened in Scottish politics was in 2017 when a rake of Indy support just decided the GE was totally irrelevant after 2014/2015 and no-one was standing for or pushing Indy. The Unionists threw the kitchen sink at it and achieved the square root of hee-haw as well.

      Apologies for the “Clacks” abbreviation.
      Have a nice weekend.
      Vote Indy.

    491. Patrick Roden says:

      Just signed the English Independence petition, as I think it is only fair that they should be able to express their views on whether they wish to keep subsidizing Scotland with BILLIONS of extra pounds every year.

      Guilt got the better of me!

    492. call me dave says:

      Gluttons for punishment can tune into Radio 5 live and ‘enjoy’ an early Brexit phone-in just starting. 🙂

      A bit of Brexit bingo fun.
      The Nation. The country. Britain. The country voted yes
      I’ve already chalked up a couple of these.

      There is guarantee of a few zoomers klaxon! 🙂

    493. mumsyhugs says:

      Happy to help our southern neighbours in their fight for independence 🙂 signed with hugs and kisses xxx

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