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Wings Over Scotland

Four minutes of fun

Posted on April 29, 2016 by

This evening’s Question Time saw one of the most incident-packed passages on the show in recent memory. From left to right onscreen the panellists were Paul Marshall (hedge fund manager, head of a chain of academy schools and co-author of the Lib Dems’ infamous “Orange Book”), Alex Salmond, Tory minister Greg Clark, Labour’s shadow home secretary Andy Burnham and right-wing think-tanker Jill Kirby.

We’ll let you watch for yourself.

Packed into the last moments at the end of the show, Salmond – who’d been on peak form all night – made a highly principled case for a Remain vote despite it not being to the SNP’s advantage, then Marshall launched into a crude burst of Jock-bashing – “if Scotland did leave [because of Brexit] I’d regard that as a win-win” – followed by an attempt by Clark to play the “once in a lifetime” card against Salmond.

Dimbleby tried to talk over Salmond’s rebuff, but then spontaneously asserted that the definition of a lifetime in the context of repeating a referendum about leaving a union was “five years’ time or 10 years’ time” in the case of the EU one. We look forward to hearing more about that.

(Incidentally, we’re still waiting on the BBC’s official response to our complaint about Dimbleby’s behaviour on a previous episode six weeks ago, which Clark had echoed in his comments, even though you’re supposed to get a reply in 10 working days.)

Finally, Burnham tried to rally the audience to Remain on the grounds that it was the only way to keep Scotland in the UK, which met with some applause but also a hefty amount of booing in the studio before the episode was hastily wrapped up.

For the last QT before the elections, it certainly went out with a bang.

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336 to “Four minutes of fun”

  1. mogabee says:

    Tonight I was incredibly proud to watch and listen to Alex Salmond.

    I laughed at the point when Dimbleby said about not wanting panel members to talk over each other, as that was a complaint I made one week. Maybe he does listen to viewers?

    But the uncalled for comments by that ignoramus beside Alex had me fuming added to by the Tory(spit) then followed by booing from some in the audience and I struggled to stop myself from chucking the control through the screen.

    I almost wished for Brexit just for badness!

  2. Brian MacLeod says:

    Marshall wants Scotland to stand on its own 2 feet.

    Surely that’s exactly what independence is?

  3. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I caught the last half hour of tonight’s programme and, watching Greg Clark’s physical, and speech, mannerisms, I was reminded of this character.

  4. thanks for advising us of the progress of your complaint re the Dimbleby. I have one in about Sarah Smith’s party political for Labour during the 6 and 10 o’clock news a couple of weeks ago. My ten days are up. Any advice about what to do? Write again? Complain? Sit tight?

  5. Iain More says:

    Dumblebum really is a patronising smug git. So 4 right wingers against one Scots leftie, the BBCs idea of balance I suppose. I thought that 3 of the those 4 right wingers if they hadn’t been seated would have started goose stepping.

    The Brit/English Nationalists just cant help themselves no matter what side of the EU debate they are on.

  6. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Marshall’s “win-win” anti-Scottish outburst reveals all you need to know about the Brexiters. Any Scot inclined to support that toxic xenophobic crew is surely suffering from the mother of all cringe reflexes.

    The thought of being marooned in mid-Atlantic with these nutters in charge gives me a serious dose of the heebie-jeebies.

  7. Iain More says:

    Is it me or was that one seriously white audience?

  8. Onwards says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    29 April, 2016 at 1:18 am
    Marshall’s “win-win” anti-Scottish outburst reveals all you need to know about the Brexiters

    It seems like English nationalists are the true isolationists. They had the cheek to call Scots separatists when the SNP wanted to keep a currency zone, a monarchy, and remain in the worlds biggest common market.

  9. Grouse Beater says:

    They plot to compose their own black propaganda against a nation they say they want to retain, and then they believe their lies. British nationalists are a truly weird bunch.

  10. Lanarkist says:

    “Vote In (Better Together), get another Vote”

    Alright David time to close that line of inquiry Dow…..

    Good night!

  11. Clapper57 says:

    Re Paul Marshall’s wee snidey comment perhaps Ruth ‘Defender of the Union’ may need to tank it down sarf as obvs some people darn sarf ain’t feeling the love.

    However….#HeardItAllBefore…Big yawn..change the piggin record.

  12. Taranaich says:

    Did anyone else hear Clark say “we knew that the government was commuted to a referendum on the EU”, or did I mishear it? If so, that’s the second time that fallacy was brought up on QT.

  13. Lanarkist says:

    QT is interesting though.

    Two questions generated by the media in the last two days occupied 60% of he discussions.

    Marginalisation is the name of the game even though the audience think otherwise!

  14. Chic McGregor says:

    Lord grant that Marshall wade in
    May by his averred win win
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition push
    And with the Tory mush
    Rebellious Scots will rush
    To drop their cringe.

  15. Grouse Beater says:

    Whenever a British nationalist describes Salmond as a ‘clever’ politician he means a crafty politician, and ‘clever’ is always followed by ‘but’.

    That phony compliment is the cue to launch into a tirade about the ‘Scots’ (omitting over 300,000 resident English) being a subsidised people, perpetually on the verge of bankruptcy – exactly the English colonial attitude to every country they have ever invaded and governed that then tells them to go home.

    Ask yourself, do you really want them governing you?

    They hate everybody and everything they don’t deem English yet can’t define what they mean by ‘English’ unless it has a cricket bat in its hand.

  16. bugsbunny says:

    O/T, but how’s the weather where you are? Here on the border of Ayrshire/Galloway, at 2.45am, it is -2 degrees and snowing heavy, it is lying. I would call it a blizzard except there is no wind.


  17. CameronB Brodie says:

    I also heard Clark make the same disingenuous EU ref. foreknowledge comment.

  18. twathater says:

    I watched QT tonight and I was disappointed in A Salmond , I felt as though he allowed Marshals tirade of subsidy junkies, I feel he should have responded more aggressively and pointed out that Scotland and the Scots have been subsidising the UK for the past 30 years .

    I have posted on here a few times in the past my support for an independent Scotland and the SNP as Scotland’s government, but I have also highlighted my opposition to the EU debacle of mismanagement and corruption , and news recently that there is an estimated further 3 million migrants hoping to make their way to the UK only re enforces my view , it may be selfish but I want us to look after our own people , our aged , our children ,our health services , our social services, there is a mountain to climb before we can offer succour to anyone else , we cannot be responsible for all the world’s problems .

    I desperately want Scotland as an independent country , but I do not want Scotland as an independent state of the EU ,it is difficult enough to win arguments in a 4 country parliament where we are outnumbered , what the hell will it be like trying to get agreement with 27 other self serving entities . TTIP and ISDS will probably get through because even although our MEP’S object to it they are outvoted .

  19. Macart says:

    Alex did well (no shock there) and its great to see a marked, more combative and assertive change in his approach to media encounters over the past year or so. Fair puts a smile on your face. 🙂

    I suspect his change of office suits him well now that the constraints of the post of FM have been lifted. He’s going to prove a handful for any interviewer or media event. 😀

    As for those fellas with their Daily Mail rent-a-quotes on Scotland? Entirely as expected and all too predictable. Fallacy on top of misquote, on top of smear and all laced with a liberal sprinkling of arrogant condescension. Y’know, ‘pig’ ignorant.

    Who knew?

  20. Alex Salmond was the ony guest that was constantly interrupted by Saint Dimbleby, English Nationalist “treasure”.

    I don’t normally watch English [political chat shows as the alleged differences between the parties is not worth arguing about.

    I also thought the Labour MP sounded very opportunist about the Hillsborough disaster.

  21. Al Dossary says:

    In my mind, the greatest politician of his era – principled, clever, resolute and the razor sharp wit he has is a joy to behold when he is on his game. Equally these are the reasons he is hated so much by those not committed to Scotland’s.

    However, he is backed by an equally competent and shrewd team both in Westminster and Holyrood. I have the feeling that the accomplishments of Nicola and Mhairi Black may well in the coming years overshadow this great man – not forgetting their leader in the Commons, Angus Robertson.

    Incidentally, I was at a friends house last night for dinner (Pakistani Canadian in Saudi Arabia) and he had RT news on. One of the stories was about the possible break up of the BBC, and the fact that it’s use as a propoganda machine and it’s overall influence on the British mindset was too much! The other thing was that I asked if he knew of Mohammed Sarwar – yes was the reply. He knew his son was in politics, doing rather well and that the father could well be returning to Scottish Politics.

    Today’s task – hook up my VPN and watch this in its entirety via the BBC propoganda channel, followed by Max Keiser with a pot of Arabic Coffee to keep my senses sharp. 36 degrees here yesterday, you are welcome to your snow.

  22. Ghillie says:

    Huge grin = )

    No matter what sh!t they throw at our Alex they just cannot touch him.

    This, and the unstinting efforts of so many people from all walks of life down through the years, is how we have come so very far along our road to Independence. And it eats and eats at those who cannot respect the rights of any other nation.

    I’m trying really really hard to be polite here.

  23. Ghillie says:

    Brian Doonthetoon @ 1.13am

    Harry Enfield ‘Tim Nice But Dim’

    Brilliant!!! Folks, pleease check it out!

    That was just the very thing I needed! Thank you = )

  24. jimnarlene says:

    It’d be a “win win” all right, Marshall; but not for the likes of you.

  25. Cactus says:

    Aye, Alex Salmond once again speaks up very well for Scotland’s best interests, cheers Al. Kinda makes you wanna like the party that he represents. Speaking of like, here’s..

    10 things I like about this place:

    1) The articles
    2) The Cairnstoon’s
    3) The readers who comment below the line
    4) The debate
    5) The crowd-funders / other projects
    6) The stuff ye learn that ye didnae ken
    7) Off-topic
    8) The navigation
    9) The dedication to Scotland
    10) The Wingers

    btw have any of my fellow Glaswegian’s seen the street billboards throughout Glasgow City and surrounds recently? It’s looking exclusively Scottish National Party / Nicola.

    Good job.

  26. Provost Sludden says:

    @ alasdair galloway
    Even cynical little me was shocked at Sarah Smith’s PPB for British Labour in Scotland. So, like yourself, I sent off a complaint. And like yourself, I have received no response.

  27. Tam Jardine says:

    Whenever an SNP politician is on a Question Time programme from England or Wales we have this two minutes of hate where the Scottish question is raised (in whatever form).

    It is very important for Dimbleby that the two minutes of hate is at the end of the programme. This means that other members of the panel get their tuppence worth and can throw in the usual soundbites you see in the clip without having the opportunity to develop their point and therefore display their ignorance of the subject.

    The SNP politician is afforded a few short sentences but crucially is not given any time to actually enlighten the audience.

    The ‘once in a generation/lifetime’ shite has been raised on question time (I think) every time we have the SNP on and it never gets challenged but then by that point the programme has run out of time and Dimbleby can curtail any salient points. And of course the audience are unable to join in the discussion.

    Does anyone have the ability to dispel the UK propaganda an English audience is labouring under in a sentence?

    It seems the term two minutes of hate coined by Orwell originated in short artillery bombardments during the first world war aimed at disrupting the troops daily routines. BBC bosses now use the same technique.

  28. Breeks says:

    Stuck between a rock and a hard place. If a pro indy spokesperson is grilled unfairly or belittled, then its propaganda TV. If a pro indy spokesperson does well, it remains propaganda TV with half a reason to watch, but more dangerous than that, it has half a claim to be balanced broadcasting.

    The issue isn’t that the BBC exists, we all have an off button, the issue is what the BBC prevents existing, and that is our own domestic news and political broadcasting which doesn’t yet have an on button.

  29. Ken500 says:

    Paul Marshall must have missed the Vow his friend Clegg made. The lets stay together, respect. The EVEL the next day. Scotland suckered again.

    Paul Marshall ex LibDem candidate and funder.. ‘Give a child a chance’ charity. Uni fees £9000 and £30Million to LSE. How much was tax evaded. Doesn’t want child refugees in the UK.

    Hillsborough. Middle East deniers. No one believed the Police or the MSM.

    The old subsidy myth. Scotland raises £54Billion in tax the rest of the U.K. Pro rata raises £42Billion. Scotland has to pay £4Billion repayments on money it doen’t borrow or spend. Loses Oil tax revenues. Oil sector was taxed at 60/80% when prices had fallen 75%. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink would save £1Billion. £1Billion spent on Trident/illegal wars and £3Billion? Lost on tax evasion. HMRC not fit for purpose. = £13Billion which could be better spent. £54Billion + £9Billion = £63Billion + 1/6 £11Billion (same as the rest of the UK) = £74Billion.

    The rest of the UK raises £461Billion and borrows £75Billion more (+ £20Billion black hole)

    QT is just annoying. It’s better not to watch it.

    Alex Salmond telt Cameron – Scottish steel etc. Another own goal for Cameron.

    Labour coming back in England. When SNP have more influence in the balance of power at Westminster, will Scotland get FFA/Independence.

  30. Ken500 says:

    Alex Salmond meant it as ‘a chance in a lifetime’. Not a once in a lifetime scenario. Westminster are just a bunch of crooks holding Scotland back. M15 tried to do a job on Alex Salmond. He was the one telling the truth. If the truth had been known. Scotland would have been Independent long ago.

    If only Tommy Sheridan could get on these programmes. He would shake it up.

    The EU costs nothing (£1Billion) that comes back in CAP, shared Defence and Grants etc. The 3Million immigrants is a projected amount. The figures are often wrong. The UK, France and US have caused the immigration crisis. If they had not illegally invaded the Middle East there would be no migration crisis. They caused the problem but refuse to take a proportionate share of immigrants. The EU did not cause the crisis. They are having to deal with it, especially Germany. If the UK leaves the EU, 2Million people resident in the EU could come back.

  31. Ken500 says:

    There is a purdah period for the Holyrood election. QT should not have been shown in Scotland. They should stop it all together. Put on Outlander or Andy Murray instead.

  32. Tormod says:

    I made complaints to the BBC about David Dimbleby and Sarah Smith. I received replies which failed to address my complaints. I therefore made further complaints and again they failed to answer properly. I think they do this deliberately so that you give up complaining. It’s like banging your head against a brick wall. The process for making a complaint is not very user friendly either.

  33. Ken500 says:

    Where’s all the global warming. It’s freezing.

  34. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Does anyone actually remember AS’s words re a second Ref just after the 1st?

    I have a memory, maybe false, that he said it was a once in a lifetime event, for him.

    Anyway, as cameron has demonstrated time and time again an incoming Government can’t be tied to any policy of an outgone one.

  35. Ken500 says:

    America wants a Federal US, EU but not a Federal UK. 10% of US voters are of Scottish descent. 1 in 6 are of Jewish descent. US election hotting up.

  36. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Big problems with internet connection crashing every 10 minutes and seem to have lost a reply to @Grouse Beater which could be zinging around the ethers until eternity.

    For the benefit of the record

    They hate everybody and everything they don’t deem English yet can’t define what they mean by ‘English’ unless it has a cricket bat in its hand.

    I know what I think about quintessential Englishness; Morris Dancing, Warm Ale and False Accounting.

    In France and many other countries they define Englishness by Yobbishness, Perfidy, Looting and Off-shore Fraud.

  37. Col says:

    Does anyone have a link to the recent Sarah Smith ppb for labour which I keep reading comments about?

  38. Another Union Dividend says:

    The political divergence between England and Scotland was ably illustrated by the two Brexit QT panellists who managed to make the Tory seem a reasonable middle of the road spokesperson.

    Only nine anti SNP letters in the Hootsman this morning. The letters editor must to better.

    Still no MSM / BBC mention of Labour MP Marie Rimmer’s Court appearance in Glasgow to-day.

    Was trial date fixed for a Friday as it is the best day to avoid bad news coverage?

  39. Aileen says:

    Alex Salmond, makes me feel great, what a way to start the day.

  40. mogabee says:


    The global warming seems to be hanging about here in my part of Argyll…Can hardly read this screen for sun! 🙂

  41. The Man in the Jar says:

    That is at least the second time that I have heard the line. “Scots knew that there would be an EU referendum when we voted in the Scottish Independence referendum”. No we most certainly did not. We knew that there would be a Westminster GE and on top of that we didn’t know if the Tories would have an EU referendum in their manifesto or not. Annoying that this seems to go unchallenged.

  42. David says:

    Where did Dimblebum get the 5, 10 years for Brexit if you don’t like the answer however the Indy one is never to be held again. Is there anywhere that defines the time period for a referendum. I seem to remember someone saying that the NI agreement has a 7 year period defined however can’t remember where I read it.

  43. Grouse Beater says:

    Tawthater: “I desperately want Scotland as an independent country , but I do not want Scotland as an independent state of the EU”

    Try this:

    The contradictions in a ‘No’ to the EU is, we would still be conjoined with England after full self-determination is secured. We’re not dispensing with the Union of the Crowns, we won’t have a closed border, and there are many thousands of English in Scotland, and Scots in England.

    So, why should we cut ourselves off from Europe? We are, after all, Europeans. They were trading with us before the Tory party was ever invented. That’s why we have red pantile roofs on the west coast.

    Europe isn’t ‘somewhere over there’ anymore. There’s a tunnel to Europe, passports are unwanted, and I’ve lost count of the French, Spanish, Italians, and Germans working and living in Scotland, let alone England.

    We can’t alter England’s values nor Westminster’s priorities, but we can alter the way the EU handles loans, and like England, we can decline use of the Euro until such time as it is a stable currency. Maybe we should increase school classes in European languages and history.

  44. One_Scot says:

    Once again the BBC allowing the lie that we knew there would be an EU referendum at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum to be broadcast without challenge.

    After a while their lies just become facts, this is reality of the corrupt British controlled establishment we now live in. It really is a sad state of affairs.

    The repressive cloud that hangs over Scotland will never move unless we move it. That will only happen if we take the first step and return the SNP with a majority on Thursday.

    Let’s not relive the 19th of September all over again. SNP x 2.

  45. DerekM says:

    I see they are using the line that we knew about an EU referendum before the indy referendum again.

    More britnat lies what worries those parasites is that for once in the history of these islands Scotland`s vote just actually might mean something in the context of the UK and they dont like that.

    I think some of the neo liberals are starting to get a bit scared they have lost control of their little project fear,its funny though to see a claim from brexiters that the BBC is biased the same BBC they said wasnt biased against us ,the BBC should be shitting their pants because if it is a brexit you guys will get sold into private hands by the winners.

    No i feel myself torn between principles here i am totally agaist public to private tory money grabs but the BBC hmmm i think i could turn a blind eye to that one.

  46. Thanks a bunch, Willie Rennie.
    This hedge funder academy schools profiteer who had the cheek to be oh so sanctimonious about the anti-semites in Corbyn’s Labour party, was perfectly comfortable being Kelvin McKenzie-esque in his racist outburst about Scotland the Subsidy junkie.

    ‘Win win’ situation, Brexit, and get rid of the Sweaties at one go.

    He’s a Lib Dem, Wullie. One of yours, like liar Carmichael. Social justice , my ers.

    Did you brief him on the £15 billion Black Hole lie, and the £1200 subsidy per head shit?
    I bet you did.

    Ruth and Kezia, and the whole Better Together Pack of liars and bullies, bad mouthed Scotland for two years, and in this SGE continue to do so, to the world and his uncle.

    We are too wee too poor, and Dumbledore last night let it all unfold, without comment or correction.

    Some may view our Better Together Unionist Politicians Up Here as ("Tractor" - Ed)s, chancers, in it for themselves, and British (English) first, and Scots a distant second , a ‘curse’ , a hinderence to their Brit careers and ‘aspirations’, an unfortunate accident of birth.

    Some may say that, I couldn’t possibly comment.

    I will never vote for any of this Unionist mob.

    BBC , you stand accused of allowing a platform for a racist, anti Scottish loudmouth, to preach hatred and ridicule. Not for the first time.And QT is funded from the BBC’s Scottish budget. Feck !
    I hope that you’re proud of yourself, Willie Rennie.
    I see Sarah Smith’s been bussed North for Sunday’s BBC Debate.
    The Establishment gathers in one final push.
    SNP x 2.

  47. G says:

    The Man in the Jar – 8:51

    Exactly. Some of us on the Yes side predicted it would happen. That’s not the same as the Scottish people knowing it would happen.

    It’s like saying:
    “But you KNEW Scotland was going to get shafted after a No vote because some people on the Yes side said so! So you voted No in full knowledge of that, and can hardly complain when it happens.”

    Clearly many people were ignorant to the possibility or didn’t believe it would happen, otherwise they wouldn’t have voted No. Culpable ignorance, in my opinion, but ignorance nevertheless.

  48. galamcennalath says:

    The Man in the Jar says:

    “Scots knew that there would be an EU referendum …. No we most certainly did not.”

    Indeed. Quite the opposite. We were told voting NO was they way to guarantee EU membership, and YES would mean exit.

    We need to gather quotes and video clips from 2014 to highlight the truth.

    We are all focusing (rightly) on the election next week. When that’s over, Scottish politics will begin to refocus on the the EURef. IMO it important that we make Indy mileage with this. Every opportunity that can further the Indy cause should be pursued.

  49. I didn’t bother watching QT last night, but going by some of the comments and given Dimbleby’s interventions in previous QT programmes.

    I suspect if Alex Salmond had attempted to rebut the slur that people in Scotland are subsidy junkies, Dimbleby may very well have stopped him claiming, the question was about the EU and not Scotland.
    Remember he did the same with Tasmina Ahmed Sheik when
    she was on question time in England.

  50. Clapper57 says:

    @Tam Jardine

    “The ‘once in a generation/lifetime’ shite has been raised on question time (I think) every time we have the SNP on and it never gets challenged”

    Yes Tam , and note Greg Clark thought it was an appropriate time to state this tired old shit just after Marshall made his offensive anti Scottish comment. One would have thought it would have been more appropriate for Clark to object to Marshall’s comment considering how Clark’s boss was pleading with Scotland to stay with UK pre Referendum.

    Perhaps Ruth and her band of Yoon/Scots in her North of the border party should realise that many at HQ are not as passionate and committed to maintaining the union as she is. Aye and there is the piggin rub .

    @Bugger (the panda)

    “Does anyone actually remember AS’s words re a second Ref just after the 1st?

    I have a memory, maybe false, that he said it was a once in a lifetime event, for him”.

    Hey Bugger (the Panda), I do not know his exact words but I remember he was interviewed by Jon Snow for Channel 4 news Pre Referendum and I definitely remember he said ‘In my opinion’ which I thought at the time was extremely canny as he obviously knew that whatever he said re this question would be cast up obvs.

    When we lost referendum and he stepped down as first minister then what he said should have no relevance other than being his own personal opinion and should not have been used as SNP official party line by Yoon shit stirrers. However cast up it is and in various interpretations as is always expected via Yoon politicians and MSM.

    Both votes SNP

  51. Valerie says:

    I think Alex was brilliant, even in the face of a right wing panel, he has to sit next to.

    I’m definitely reaching a saturation point in hearing jock bashing, because I find myself getting to my feet to escape hearing it.

    This morning, after days of the Press bigging up Burnham over his handling of Hillsborough, he is attacking Corbyn over the Ken debacle.

    Call me cynical, but here he is making hay, while his star is ascending. I wonder how long Corbyn has got.

  52. Grouse Beater says:

    The English colonial headmaster-collector of many Academy schools is a reincarnation of Dickens character – the one in charge of the children’s poor house, Bumble the Beadle:


    He kept telling us we are too poor to exercise free will, and should shut up, or cut adrift into the North Sea.

    I’m forever advocating democracy means you allow your most despicable opponent his chance to vent, but in this instance I want to stick his head down his school toilet.

  53. Breeks says:

    Not withstanding my views on the BBC, when Alex Salmond appears on Unionist TV, I get the impression he is a visting foreign dignatory from a country called Scotland who is allowed to comment on UK affairs from the priviledged status of a disinterested observer and courteous guest. He can cut through the political dogma with his scythe like perception and raise a cheer in a hostile crowd. They’d like him if it wasn’t for his politics. So why do I feel sad?

    Because he doesn’t come from a free country on a visit. His aspirations come from the same stable as mine. They are bubbles which will never break the surface while we remain bound by this Union.

    So much of our best output as Scots at home and abroad disappears into the dark abyss of our UK union. Imagine the momentum and direction such energies would give us, steering our own boat and choosing our own heading. Yet here we remain, dragged backwards against the current by a stubborn bow line which binds our speed built clipper ship to the fate of the lumbering SS Britania as she steams full speed towards the hostile rocks off Europe with lunatics brawling at the wheel.

    When will be permitted to consider the fate of our Nation in absolute terms rather than someone’s comments, for or agin us, on the Propaganda Channel? It solves nothing. It progresses nothing. It changes nothing. We learn nothing. It stifles everything.

    “Now is the winter of our discontent. Made glorious summer by this sun of Linlithgow”… Just stepped outside. No Summer just yet.

  54. winifred mccartney says:

    I do hope that finally justice can be found for the families of Hillsborough tragedy – many should be tried and jailed especially those involved in the cover-up which involved political parties, govt and police. We all have a great deal to be thankful to these families for because they have worked hard for so long and suffered so much – and they have done it for every ordinary person who is cowed and wrongfully brought down by powerful people.

    Britain should also be ashamed of the treatment of the child refugees – turning our back is not an option. Pressure should be kept up on the govt to allow these children to come here.

    How long do you think Scotland will have to wait for the BBC to be in court regarding lies and bias towards the nationalist people of Scotland. I wonder if the presenters/reporters don’t realise how biased they are, it is just so endemic and ingrained that their masters and establishment in London no longer have to remind them.

  55. Grouse Beater says:

    Clapper 57: “Salmond “was interviewed by Jon Snow for Channel 4 news Pre Referendum and I definitely remember he said ‘In my opinion’”

    True. And he added, “That is not the view of the Scottish government”.

    What complicates the issue, and what democracy-hating opponents always allude to but alter a significant word, is the statement at the beginning of the White Paper:

    “If we vote ‘No’ Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path … is lost.

    That is always attributed to Salmond, but it isn’t included in his opening preface.

    Of course, a defeated political party in a Westminster election would just guffaw if told, they tried and lost, and that’s that.

    For my part, I regard a generation to be a decade. But there’s no rule that says a plebiscite cannot be repeated within that time span. And knowing the callous, devious nature of the colonial mentality, we’d better have a second in double-quick time before the chances are ruled out by UK parliamentary law.

    The bitches in heat are working on it now…

  56. yesindyref2 says:

    I got the impression Salmond was more popular than the wannabee quasar Dimbleby, and probably than the others on the panel as well. Hull? Ah yes, part of that desolate wasteland in the “North” as far as the southerners are concerned.

  57. Grouse Beater says:

    Breeks: “So why do I feel sad?”

    I have enjoyed your contributions here, Breeks.

    Never forget, we do not own our country although we pay taxes and debt we did not incur to live in it. We rent it.

  58. heedtracker says:

    Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 10h10 hours ago
    Here we go. Leading expert on losing referendums, Alex Salmond. @bbcquestiontime

    Hard core toryboy boost there.

    Hull audience Brexit clapometer seemed to go either way but Salmond’s take on Project Fearing was noted. If England has to endure just one day of the vote NO or else BBC terrorising Scotland had to cope with, vote YES and you’re out of Europe, yet now its all flipped completely, kind of UKOK bullshit.

    European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union

    Vile seps knew Brexit ref was coming though, shriek our imperial masters.

  59. Dorothy Devine says:

    Grousebeater , a generation is considered to be 20 years and unless I live to 90 ,I have no chance of seeing that – unlike our own dear queen , I have not been looked after nor kept in cotton wool.

    You worry me with the bit about legislating against another referendum and several others have spoken of it.

    Surely that would be illegal?
    Surely we can’t be shackled to a corpse for ever?

    Had they thought it was possible would they not have legislated against the independence of such ripe cherries as Australia, USA, New Zealand and India?

    Does it really take an armed uprising to secure the pride of a nation?

  60. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thanks for the clip, Rev. It saved me having to watch the programme. As usual, four to one against Alex Salmond, and Dimbleby starting to panic when the applause for AS and the boos for that plank on his right began. I’ll say one thing for the chairman, he knows how to grovel for a knighthood, for services to UKOKia.

    It’s a bit rich having to hear the Big Lie that we knew there would be an EU referendum slipped in again. Cameron calculated of course that he would be back in coalition with the LibDems and that they would not agree to one. It must have been quite a stammy-gaster when he won a majority and had to go through with it. I hope it tears the Tories apart. Oh dearie, dearie, me…..

    And, btw, although I couldn’t care less what happens to the Red Tories either, that whole scene with Livingstone and Mann was a complete Blairite set-up. I’m just amazed Ken was stupid enough to pour petrol on the smouldering ashes.

    Who could I vote for if I lived in England?

    Thankfully, it’s one thing less for me to worry about. I climbed Ben Ledi onTuesday and marvelled at the view from the top: Dumyat, Meikle Bin, Dumgoyne, Arran, Ben Lomond, The Cobbler, and so on as the peaks disappeared into the oncoming hail clouds. I got quite emotional when I took it all in. We live in a beautiful country with a bright future for all our children, once we extricate ourselves from this corrupt and parasitical Union.

    Dimblebum and The BBC are great motivators.

  61. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Watching that quarter-wit of a Brexit supporter in the clip, I was almost moved to vote “Out” on 23 June.

    This may well be our best chance of gaining Independence. If the Brexiters win, the likes of Cameron and Osborne are toast, we will have Boris as PM and the little Englanders in-charge.

    If Nicola was then to call for Indyref2, I am sure we would win it – darn sarf they would be so-busy in-fighting, they would be unable to mount an effective Project Fear 2 for a start.

    Then, we would surely be welcomed with open arms by the EU, keen to put Ingerlund in her place.

    Win – win.

  62. Inverclyder says:

    Salmond could well have commented on the anti everything hedge fund bloke but the BBC could have just edited that out.

    They wouldn’t do that obviously with them being fair and impartial!

  63. ian says:

    Unfortunately many in Europe and the world see Scotland as part of England ,they see no difference and so obviously do around 50% of our population in Scotland.

  64. Philip Maughan says:

    And elsewhere, on the BBC Daily Politics (26th. April), Alex Salmond was given a grilling by Jo Coburn about the ‘failure’ of the Scottish Government to meet its self-imposed target of a 98% A&E response time, having already met the UK target of 95% and the distinction of being the best performing A&E response time in the UK.

  65. heedtracker says:

    Yet another progressive liberal fake from England, takes another long hard weewee over his Scotland region’s democracy

    SNP bad, why dont red/blue tories get bettertogether again 2014 style, led by Ruth Davidson.

    Its got that bad in UKOK toryboy media land.

    “A party with Labour’s policies led by a politician as authentic as the Tories’ Ruth Davidson would get a lot of votes. And that is a truth that is not confined to Scotland”

    Poor Kez.

  66. Grouse Beater says:

    Dorothy Devine: “Grousebeater, a generation is considered to be 20 years.”

    Biologists would have it our body renews itself every seven to ten years. Bones, blood, skin, vital organs, change physically in every way. I regard that as a true generation.

    ‘Twenty’ refers to youth and growing up, the now you’re a man or a woman (or both) 21st birthday party. Then comes ‘life begins at 40′, and so on, and so forth.

    The fact that you think it’ twenty, I think it’s ten, some say five, and Unionists say a hundred years, means there’s no exact definition. Therefore, we can make a generation what we will. Ten years it is.

    Salmond referred to a political generation – five years.

    I’m completing an essay now on Westminster’s attempt to block another plebiscite … posted in an hour.

  67. davidb says:

    A generation is defined in the Anglo Irish Agreement as 7 years.

    No man has the right to say to his country “Thus far shalt thou go and no further”. (C S Parnell).

    And whether or not AS said anything about timing future referendums or not, is of no importance. We were promised a federal state. When are they delivering that promise?

    We have every right to secede from this British union as and when we sovereign Scots see fit.

    We are 56 of 59 MP’s. We have half the vote. We can go when we want to.

  68. Clootie says:

    A nasty finish with the true face of the little Englander mentality. The sponger myth still being pushed down South.

    As regards Brexit – you only have to look at the background of those pushing Brexit to realise this is about making money for the elite. The neoliberals are frothing at the mouth to push the exit vote through…and they are not thinking go about UK citizens. Their thoughts are fixed on a quick buck from the exit.

    SNP X 2 and remain in EU…..but we must get out of this Union as soon as possible.
    The unionist spin has certainly assured that we won’t be love bombed to remain during YES2.

  69. heedtracker says:

    What’s this got to do with the price of UKOK tea in China? Vote SLabour, Kez is quite clearly gay, might work.

  70. Stoker says:

    Apologies if this has already been answered but i’m still playing catch-up, it’s been one helluva event filled week.

    To Rev and others asking similar questions, re your complaints not receiving a reply so far.

    The BBC, if inundated with complaints of a similar nature or on the same topic etc, can choose to put their “findings” on their own BBC Complaints site rather than respond to all individually.

    I don’t have the time to look at the moment but someone with a wee bit of time on their hands may want to take a look and let us all know if you come across anything, or not.

    SNP x 2

  71. Clapper57 says:

    29 April, 2016 at 10:12 am

    “Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 10h10 hours ago
    Here we go. Leading expert on losing referendums, Alex Salmond. @bbcquestiontime”

    The twit also tweeted on his twitter ” Paul Marshall – a political star is born saying what he thinks on BBCQT and not pandering to audience”.

    Yeh Iain , what a shhtar he was ….really not surprised Iain ze martian was fawning about the shit with a mouth considering his own penchant for stirring and spewing shit …..both seriously in need of sphincters to replace tongues….more appropriate mouth furniture me thinks considering all of their unwanted copious shit.

    Then perhaps their shit could be constipated if sphincter i.e. new tongue muscle did it’s job properly by remaining tightly closed thus stopping their unwanted shit from being released onto the unsuspecting at random .Job done …simples.

    @Grouse Beater 10.05am

    Well said , as always.

  72. NeoconNat says:

    Flimsy argument, Grouse.

    I don’t see why we should let loyalties get in the way of an honest debate on this subject.

    First of all, you accept that the once in a generation or lifetime thing was said. Some don’t accept that, but it was said.

    Secondly, as you point out, it’s a matter of opinion as to what it means. It isn’t an exact measure.

    Thirdly, most importantly, it isn’t up to Nicola or Alex or you or me or anybody. It’s the democratic right of the Scottish people to vote for another referendum and if enough do so that’s what will happen.

    By the same token, it’s the democratic right of the SNP to stick it on their manifesto.

    I think we can pronounce this debate over now.

  73. The Isolator says:

    They really are a shower of clown shoes.ignorant one and all.

    I think the passive stance adopted by the SNP when faced with incessant bully boy tactics appears to be planned and therefore a tactic designed to appeal to the soft no’s.

    The more they do it the more “soldiers” fall in behind the march along the road.

    SNP x 2 always.

  74. msean says:

    Didn’t realise the Marshall guy from last night was a LibDem candidate,sounded more like a Tory right winger to me. The more supporters of indepence the better 🙂

  75. Dorothy Devine says:

    GrouseBeater , I am buying in to your timeline – I have a much better chance of making it to 80 – and if it is only 5 even better!

    Looking forward to the essay . I am really anxious about the suggestion that Westminster can legislate away our independence.

  76. Andrew McLean says:


    Kezia might be quite clearly gay, but she won’t be on May 6th, but her very , very small revelation that is so uninteresting to be quite possible the first example of an invisibility cloak invented mean she is she going for the gay vote? Labour having lost the catholic vote as an article in the same paper reports? And if so what about the gay catholic vote, or the transgender protestant vote? Or even those voter who do not see themselves as originating from this planet, or see themselves as elf’s goblins or other mythical creatures? who speaks for them? Kezia?

    Well she should speak for mythical creatures, as her party is fast becoming a historical myth, just like the fairies at the bottom of the garden, and no before any smart arse says that comment is homophobic, I actually believe in the existence of fairies, but I refuse to believe there is anything called the Scottish labour party, I am not that bloody gullible!

  77. liz says:

    Re in/out, win/win, subsidy junkies, yada yada.

    I was reading the BLC on an article which had the usual Scot bashing and one Proud Scot but said – I voted no as I want to be part of the UK and the reply he got from a little Englander made me laugh.

    He said, I don’t want you to stay, stop sponging etc – so I hope that made the PSB think again.

  78. Betty Boop says:

    @ Grouse Beater, 9:33am
    @ Twathater

    Thanks for pointing out your blog (worth considering Twathater) via the link:

    I share your opinion on the EU and, without its influence, I dread to think what would befall people here at the hands of the right wing hegemony which has held Westminster power for as long as I can remember. It is dreadful enough now.

    As for QT – it is necessary to hide all heavy, throwable objects during the broadcast. I only watched last night because AS was on the panel. That right wing harpy-like monster along with the everybody-phobe hedge fund manager/academy chain head exemplified the worst of the “we are the people” Britnats. Not a trace of compassion between them and much of the audience sounded the same.

    BTW, where have I seen the man in the audience who asked the last question about Brexit and Scotland?

  79. Bingo Wings Over Scotland says:

    Lost concentration as soon as I saw Andy Burnham’s face.
    Did he let his 4 year old niece do his make-up? Looks like he’s starring in pantomime. 😀

  80. msean says:

    Re whether the once in a generation thing was said or not, the bettertogether side also said stuff,and we all know how they stuck like glue to what they said,like vows and shipbuilding etc.

    As for the legislation about future indyrefs,wouldn’t that have to be agreed by the Scottish Parliament,making it more important than ever to get an independence supporting majority?

  81. Breeks says:

    Just suppose Alex Salmond didn’t mean the Independence referendum was the chance of a lifetime opportunity, (and how many deserving lifetimes never even got that opportunity?), but that the referendum would settle affairs for a generation, precisely as defined in every unionist’s wet dream.

    Suppose I concede every word. So what?

    Do you expect us to pander to your dillusion that Independence is killed stone dead if Alex Salmond is portrayed as fallible? Heads up Mr Unionist, don’t fall for your own propaganda. Scotland’s quest for Independence has solid foundation and is a bigger issue than any one man or woman, even whether that’s Alex Salmond or our Nicola. You might convince yourself that Independence is the SNP Gong Show; cut off the head and see it flounder, but more fool you.

    I can’t speak for the SNP, but I am your worst nightmare Mr Unionist; a free thinking Independentist who requires no SNP.

    It is your Unionist media which latches on this ‘generation’ between referenda because it needs a rest. It is the Project Fear campaign which is tired, weary, threadbare, and in desperate need of a dry dock refit. It must win forever. We need win only once.

    Every sigh, every snide wee remark on the BBC, every “separatist” you demean, every stooge that calls Tokyo Kaye, every grimace of exasperation that Scotland’s future remains unsettled is confirmation that you are being bound to our agenda, while you think you’ve been so clever in binding us to yours.

    Heads up Mr Unionist. We’re not leaving until we get what we came for. You can say it isn’t so as often as you like, but the issue isn’t yours to decide.

  82. Famous15 says:

    The LibDems have not been the nice,fair minded good people since ever. The drift to nastiness and dishonesty started after the death of the Liberal leader, Jo Grimmond and it is now a requirement of a LibDem candidate to be a cheating lying smooth talking rogue.The ones with a handsome smile and double barrelled names are the biggest rascals and tell enormous lies. West Edinburgh beware!

  83. macnakamura says:

    OT ish

    Dimbleby, at one point, asked that people should not speak over others.

    Does that mean that Anna Soubry will never be invited on QT again.

    She is allowed free rein by Dimbleby when ever she is on the panel.
    Always, she is seated next to him, too.

  84. Liz says:

    Interesting to hear Dimbleby say if the UK voted to stay in they could always have another referendum in 5 or 10 years if they didn’t like the way things were going, but if they voted out it would be permanent. Seems to me there’s a direct parallel there with the Indy ref. Vote to stay in and if you’re not happy with the way things go you can have another ref in 5-10 years. Vote out and it’s permanent. Sounds good to me!

  85. Last night`s Question Time had the usual Oxbridge Mafia in the panel,

    David Dimbleby,Christ Church, Oxford,a member of the Bullingdon Club,

    Andy Burnham,Fitzwilliam College, University of Cambridge,

    Greg Clark,Magdalene College, Cambridge,

    Paul Marshall,St John’s College, Oxford,

    Jill Kirby ?

    Alex Salmond,Linlithgow Academy,

    outside Alex it was the usual privileged Blue ,Red,Goldy yellow, Tory extreme Right Wing panel.

  86. Another Union Dividend says:

    On QT hustings I see The Herald having a go at some SNP candidates not attending local hustings. To my mind these rarely get anyone to change their minds and candidates could often speak to more people chapping on doors.

    I am advised that in leafy Morningside the local hustings Chairman is a card carrying member of the Labour Party and he put all the questions from those submitted in advance and conveniently for Labour omitted any on Labour’s PFI schools scandal which is the hottest topic in Edinburgh at present.

  87. Dan Huil says:

    The bbc is institutionally anti-Scottish. Don’t pay the licence tax.

  88. Fred says:

    Ken Livingstone has been ruthlessly set-up & stitched-up by Andrew Neil then grilled by a hostile gang of four & pursued as far as his front door. There’s a world of difference between anti-semitism & being anti-Israeli but the hounds scent blood.

    However, as if Red Ken hasn’t enough problems, somebody has wakened up Ken MacIntosh who realises there’s an election on & his Jewish vote to cultivate, so hastens to join the baying mob.

    Et tu Brute’.

  89. Grouse Beater says:

    NeoConNatterjack: “Flimsy argument, Grouse.”

    Says a moronic troll, repeating my points verbatim as if his original argument, adding none of his own, trying to shut down a discussion, and deciding the debate ‘is over’.

    As I said before:

    Time to take the crapologist by the scruff of his scrawny neck and toss him out the castle window. And there’s no fat bellied Ukip underneath to break his fall.

    Meanwhile, back in Scotland:

  90. Liz says:

    Once in a lifetime. Well, for some people it was. There are those who voted, who are sadly no longer with us, and for them it certainly was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

  91. Grouse Beater says:

    Fred: “Ken MacIntosh who realises there’s an election on & his Jewish vote to cultivate, so hastens to join the baying mob.”

    Despicable – but then, third-rate politicians like him only betray how shallow they are.

    Doesn’t his council have recycling yard where he can be dumped in the ‘Hard Plastics’ skip?

  92. Onwards says:

    This once in a generation thing is ridiculous.

    Of course, politicians are going to say stuff like that, as a means of urging a YES vote over the line.

    It’s just electioneering.

    A generation in political terms is the term of a parliament.
    So if the next indy ref was 2019, that would be 5 years -sufficient time for this line of attack to be neutralized.

  93. Frazerio says:

    I’ve been driven to poetry…


    Once upon a time I rated Auntie
    Lucky to have such a service for me
    But my eyes have been opened, I never used to see
    The blatant bias on the BBC

    So I sent a letter to the Beebs DG
    I said what about Question Time up in Dundee
    Hardly any local accents on my TV
    They wrote ‘we’re never ever biased on the BBC’

    Twelve pound a month for the licence fee
    Straight into the coffers of the Treasury
    The Chancellor rubs his hands with glee
    But you can’t be biased on the BBC

    Mhairi Black, you’ll seldom ever see
    They’ll trot out Gordon Brown, who isnae even an MP
    Or some unionist hacks who hate the SNP
    They say you can’t be biased on the BBC

    State propaganda, michty me
    In this day and age, in this country
    Wings and the Wee Ginger Dug can see
    The daily bias on the BBC

    In the internet age, I know its not just me
    That hears the guff seeping daily from Pacific Quay
    Is it too much to ask for a press thats free
    They claim they’re never ever biased on the BBC

    Theres a party from Scotland, with 50 odd MP’s
    Just three who’re pro-union, yet still the BBC
    Gives equal air time to Ruth, Kez, Willie and the SNP
    They still claim they’re never biased on the BBC

    More than half the country now simply wants to be free
    But we’re still subject to Westminster tyranny
    All I ask is for a fair democracy
    But its being hindered by the bias on the BBC

  94. heedtracker says:

    Clapper57 says:
    29 April, 2016 at 10:59 am
    29 April, 2016 at 10:12 am

    “Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 10h10 hours ago
    Here we go. Leading expert on losing referendums, Alex Salmond. @bbcquestiontime”

    The twit also tweeted on his twitter ” Paul Marshall – a political star is born saying what he thinks on BBCQT and not pandering to audience”.

    I blame Oxbridge. That crew fart out an endless supply of super confident tories like that dude, that head out to London and dominate everything.

    How can a multi millionaire hedge fund chancer be that racist, banal and rich?

    It is a mad UKOK toryboy world out there.

    Rancid The Graun wants their Scotland region to come bettertogether and vote Labour under Ruth freakin Davidson, exact same tory scumbags that blocked 3000 parentless refugee children this week.

    They are now all literately saying and doing anything UKOK to stop Scotland voting SNP. If historic fraudsters at the Record pop up with another of their historic The Vow frauds on Scotland next week…

    What would it cost toryboy world? one cruise missile maybe.

  95. Onwards says:

    Liz says:
    29 April, 2016 at 11:50 am

    “Once in a lifetime. Well, for some people it was. There are those who voted, who are sadly no longer with us, and for them it certainly was a once in a lifetime opportunity.”

    That’s true Liz. Unfortunately there are plenty more old folks today who campaigned hard for Scottish self-government, and won’t be around when their dream finally happens.

    I will raise a glass to them all that day.

  96. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The rehabilitation of Sarwar continues apace…he’s on Brewer’s Big Debate right now.

  97. Andrew McLean says:

    Breeks 11:38, well said!

    How proud are we, to live in a nation that has the body of men who would write this without the approval of the SNP; actually long before the SNP (in 1320).

    “For so long as there shall but one hundred of us remain alive we will never give consent to subject ourselves to the dominion of the English. For it is not glory, it is not riches, neither is it honours, but it is liberty alone that we fight and contend for, which no honest man will lose but with his life..”

    Not only was that document an affirmation of the natural right of Scotland but stated that kings were only men, not divine creatures anointed by God. and in that should he “consent that we or our kingdom be subjected to the king or people of England, we will immediately endeavour to expel him, as our enemy and as the subverter both of his own and our rights, and we will make another king”

    As true today as I type on a electronic forum as when quill was put to parchment 697 years ago.

    Now how many generations do you need to be told to F off Westminster before it sinks in, we will never go away NEVER until we get rid of you, you’re nothing but a bunch of leaches: ! >:(

  98. katherine hamilton says:

    Once in a generation, lifetime, a parliament or whatever. It is all irrelevant. When most people here want to be free, we will be free. We have our own parliament, church, laws and so on. Our own parliament will hold a plebiscite in due course. Westminster can pass all the anti-referendum laws it likes, if we want away we’ll go.

    Of course there will be problems, threats actually carried out, even. But no matter 12 months down the line from a Yes vote, the roof will not have fallen in. It will be tumultuous maybe even scary but having full economic powers will mean we will be able to look after ourselves. We are only 5 million. We’ll take care of each other.

  99. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Katherine Hamilton –

    Hear hear.


  100. Inverclyder says:

    With the whole Question Time weekly farce is it not about time Scotland Tonight was extended to an hour once per week.

    Bernard Ponsonby hosting in local Town Halls across the country with a panel of MP’s, MSP’s, Councillors, Party Members, Media, Celebrities, Business, man or woman off the street etc. to discuss the topics of the week and to get politicians to explain their actions.

    Audience could apply online for tickets.

  101. Macart says:

    @Liz 11.50

    Well said.

    How and ever, the yoon meeja and politicos do try their very best to misrepresent that line and its context.

    1. The statement was a matter of opinion proferred from a question asked by a journalist. This does NOT constitute a government stance, a policy or official pledge. It merely is what it has always been… an opinion.

    2. Only three documents frame the referendum and its outcomes – The Edinburgh Agreement, The Smith Commission Proposals, The current Scotland Bill settlement. IN NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE IS THERE ANY BINDING PROMISE ON BEHALF OF THE SCOTTISH ELECTORATE ON TIMETABLES FOR FUTURE REFERENDUMS.

    3. Whether another referendum happens is almost entirely (barring a major constitutional trigger) in the hands of Scotland’s electorate.

    All HMG had to do was make good on its promises and assurances…

    Yeah, I reckon they kinda blew that one too.

  102. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Sarwar getting on his high horse over the Named-Person Act, stating repeatedly that SLab have changed their stance because the scheme ‘has lost the confidence of the public’.

    What a brass neck the man has…

  103. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Scot Finlayson:

    You were comparing apples and pears there mate, quoting the Oxbridge colleges of the remainder of the panel, but limiting your Alex Salmond educational profile to Linlithgow Academy.

    Remember, Wee Eck went to St Andrew’s University, which in some ways is as-elite as some of the Oxbridge colleges, However, the fact Eck, from a cooncil hoose in Linlithgow and an old-fashioned Scottish Senior Secondary school could make it to St Andrew’s demonstrates the superiority of the old Scottish education system.

    Re “generation”, as referred to by Eck. pre-referendum. I always took this to be “a political generation”, which, as per the Northern Irish question, is defined as seven years.

  104. schrodingers cat says:

    re- once in a generation………

    that generation finished at 10:01pm on the 7th of may 2015

    meat is back on the menu boys 🙂

  105. Andrew McLean says:

    I was told a while ago by a SNP supporter, well he said he was, that WOS was full of nasty folk, I asked him if he ever read it, “Oh no” he said “too rough for me!”.

    I was thinking last night that one way to keep this mistaken idea alive is to come on here like a devious devilish spirit and play nice then bite someone, then play nice, then bite someone, then play,,, well you get the picture.
    Remind you of anyone?

  106. mike cassidy says:

    Stoker 10.57

    Here’s the link to the bbc complaints page dealing with “wide audience concern” issues.

    Click on any of them for a serious analysis of the complaints made and the issues raised.

    As if!

  107. The Rough Bounds. says:

    Radio Scotland this morning talking about the hustings that had taken place in Inverness. They asked two (yes, only two) ‘locals’ that had attended what they thought of the event.

    Both of them had English accents. Now who says the BBC in Scotland isn’t biased?

  108. sarah says:

    Frazerio at 12.03

    Excellent poem – congratulations. Have you sent it to the Press & Journal, Scotsman etc etc?!

  109. Andrew McLean says:

    The Rough Bounds.
    So what? the accent was immaterial, however they were clearly unionist surely that’s the point you are making?

    As was told to me years ago by a newcomer when I worked for IDC, “one had to leave ones home; I didn’t feel safe as a family of colour had moved in quite close to me, and when you get one you get the bally boat load, you Jocks should be careful”. well we let you in so I suppose there is a smigin of truth in what you say was my reply!

  110. call me dave says:

    I was asked to change channels on the car radio on the way back home from Oban as I was tuned into Brewer on radio shortbread.
    I looked at her…I nodded and put on an Abba CD to humour her.

    Same old on Brewer’s big debate, no money , not enough money, we can’t talk about money, SNP cuts but little mention of WM cuts.

    Sarwar less strident but not more knowledgeable it seems?

    Two large oor Wullie orangey diamonds in a field coming into Falkland hope the afternoon is an improvement.

    SNP x 2

  111. JLT says:

    The show to begin with, was actually a very dignisfied affair. Andy Burnham was excellent. I thought he was dignified in not only his defence of Liverpool, but paying real tribute to the families of the 96 who died. I actually believed I was watchin ga rare moment on Question Time; an actual dignified discussion.

    Then Brexit reared its head.

    Once again, English MP’s, panellists and a good portion of the audience focussed on immigration, rather then the economic argument, which everyone else in the UK, knows is the real area for discussion.

    If this vote is tight; no matter what who wins (in or out), there is going to be a serious amount of bad blood in the aftermath of it.

  112. Crabbit Geezer says:

    Cannae watch this tripe so gave the clip a miss – even 5 minutes of it would send me into orbit. But accept your very reliable word Rev that it wis a grand Salmond performance and enjoyed the commentary as always.

  113. Tam Jardine says:

    Re Once in a generation- I love how the unionists dispute everything, EVERYTHING Alex Salmond has ever said- they opposed him and they now oppose Nicola on everything and believe that the white paper and the entire independence project was misguided and predicated on lies.

    Yet this one suggestion that in their opinions the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity- they are holding onto their misunderstanding of those remarks like a piece of the true cross.

    It is not a very consistent approach. A consistent unionist approach would be to say- well: Salmond said it would be once in a generation so it’s bound to come round again in a couple of years.

    It is simply wishful thinking- a wilful misreading of a pretty simple idea. This was our big chance read as this is our only chance.

    I have yet to hear a single brexit campaigner asked about the prospect of another referendum if the EU vote is close.

    Dimbleby was relaxed about a second vote last night though seemingly he was unable to conflate the 2 concepts. It’s not exactly a great leap of imagination to think about both subjects in tandem and apply a little consistency.

  114. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    A “generation” is defined in Northern Ireland’s Good Friday agreement as seven years.

    As part of this agreement NI can hold a referendum on a United Ireland every seven years if the people of NI so wish.

    So if it is good enough for NI it is good enough for Scotland and the Edinburgh Agreement has already set the precedent.

    So 2021 seems a reasonable timescale for indyref2 unless of course there is a material change in circumstances – like for example Brexit!

    We need to thank the English MSM for stoking up anti-Scottish feelings – it could finally lead to the end of the Union.

    Appealing to the Brexit waivers to save the Union could be a very dangerous tactic as they may also want rid of Scotland as well as the EU.

    So interesting times ahead…

  115. @Socrates MacSporran

    St Andrews University like most University`s and Public/Private schools runs as a charity so it can dodge paying tax,

    part of the remit to be a charity is to let some of the Hoi polloi in from the lower classes,

    basically the rich and privileged evading paying tax by abusing a charity loophole.

    hopefully the Scottish Gov will look into the Public/Private school charity tax dodgers.

  116. yesindyref2 says:

    Indy Ref 2

    “It’s coming yet for a’ that”

    heh heh

  117. mike cassidy says:


    but I can see why the Rev is recommending this meeting of the Frankies on his Twitter page.

  118. Frazerio says:

    Thanks Sarah, as we know, the internet kind of means those publications and their like are increasingly obsolete. ‘These days’ instead of trying to meet the approval of an editor with hidden agenda’s via a piece of bark, lo, we can now publish straight into the ether.

  119. call me dave says:

    “The labour party left me” It moved to the right it seems.

    Worth a keek today’s post.

    Interesting small item mentioned on radio shortbread headlines.

  120. mr thms says:


    Has there been any mention on Scottish news of the soaring price of oil?

    I notice a few moments ago that Brent Crude was trading at more than $48..

    Production costs have fallen substantially since 2014 and production has also increased since 2014..

    It’s good news don’t you think?

  121. Sinky says:

    It says something about the BBC / MSM in Scotland when it is left to Guido Fawkes to mention Marie Rimmer’s appearance in court to-day. Questions should be asked why did Labour not suspend her after she was charged by the police?

    Labour MP Marie Rimmer, accused of kicking an elderly Indy campaigner during the Scottish referendum, is in court for the first day of her trial. She denies the charges. Will Labour have to suspend another MP if the jury don’t believe her?

    Just imagine the pages of coverage if it was an SNP MP involved.

    Double standards all round by the UKOK press and broadcasters.

  122. Luigi says:

    mr thms says:

    29 April, 2016 at 1:30 pm

    Has there been any mention on Scottish news of the soaring price of oil?

    I notice a few moments ago that Brent Crude was trading at more than $48..

    Production costs have fallen substantially since 2014 and production has also increased since 2014..

    It’s good news don’t you think?

    Having made a merry song and dance about the falling oil price and how it more or less settled the independence argument (for a generation :)), it was always going to be a tad convenient for the corporate media to report a rising oil price.

    I think most of us are fully aware that the yoon media has a narrative, and only directly reports information that supports their narrative. This holds true for a large number of topics.

  123. Bob Mack says:

    Once in a generation means nothing to me. It is my right as a Scot to put forward my option for freedom any damn time I choose to do so. If enough of us feel the same ,then so much the better. I neither seek nor require permission to make that choice.

    I just require the numbers to make it happen. Who do they think they are to impose time limitations on my indisputable right to make that choice any time that suits?

  124. heedtracker says:

    Double standards all round by the UKOK press and broadcasters.

    Last night BBC 4 had two hour long pseudo sciency progs on the UK’s Sun and teamGB’s Moon. Both shows focused on Orkney and Lewis, Maeshowe and Callanish. The word Scotland was never mentioned and onsite local guides on Orkney and Lewis for the BBC prog makers, were all English.

  125. call me dave says:

    Good old auntie has a web page on Brewer’s big debate where it’s free scoff for the ‘not SNP’ parties about their GE views (or lack of policies) in Scotland.

    Meanwhile the SNP spokesperson Humza Yousaf is quoted only on those ‘non Scottish GE matters’ no rebuttal.

    Funny old world init …init? 🙂

  126. Robert Graham says:

    This once in a whatever pish easily solved .

    All you unionists of whatever colour .

    Stand by and fully deliver.

    THE VOW freely offered by all parties.

    Until then shut the f/k up.

  127. galamcennalath says:

    Stating the obvious, our London neighbours really do believe they are entitled to tell us what to do…..

    “you can’t have another referendum, generation, lifetime, blah, blah”

    … really does demand a robust retort …

    “no one in Scotland is asking your opinion, now f off”

  128. Grouse Beater says:

    Nobody who genuinely cares about Scotland’s constitutional rights should squander their second vote. Both votes SNP.

    The forces that plotted against us are rallying:

    The Bitch Is In Heat Again’:

  129. Grouse Beater says:

    Dorothy Devine: “GrouseBeater , I am buying in to your timeline”

    Dorothy – here’s the promise essay, timely, I hope, to concentrate minds, as we approach the election.

  130. ScottieDog says:

    I do feel that we miss a lot of opportunities to hit back against the sort of misinformation taking place last night.

    There is the obvious example of the EU referendum being on the table before 2015 GE – obvious lie, but also the comment about ‘Scotland’s deficit’.

    Why aren’t we hitting back with bare facts like..
    The highest tax yielding part of the U.K. – associate with the city of London and banking sector is the part which received almost £1Trillion bailout

  131. Les Wilson says:

    Grouse Beater says:

    No surprises, the Yoons will do anything to kill off Scottish democracy. There will be the usual black ops, MI5, and EBC and all the other propaganda machinery they can muster. All to make us “comfortable” with their underhand dirty deeds.

    They really are the most corrupt and devious bunch of shit anyone could imagine in their worst nightmares.

    I hope the Brexit people win and create the opportunity to get the f..k out of this occupation (not worthy of the word Union), for, in truth, that is what it really is.

  132. NeoconNat says:

    Freedom is the freedom to hold up a hand, count the fingers and say “a hand has five fingers”.

    Power is the power to cut off that hand, put it through a mincer and ask “how many fingers now?”

    The Scottish independence movement with the SNP at its helm is eye to eye with power. Don’t expect power to be pretty or have symmetrical arguments.

    SNP x 2

  133. heedtracker says:

    Why aren’t we hitting back with bare facts like..
    The highest tax yielding part of the U.K. – associate with the city of London and banking sector is the part which received almost £1Trillion bailout

    Because ProjectFear feeds off of debt, the bigger the debt, the more BBC led UKOK attack propaganda can frighten the independence out of Scotland.

    They all do it. In Aberdeen, SLab yoon councillors like Wullie Young have run up so much debt, oil capital of Europe’s nearly bankrupt.

    Public sector debt in this part of teamGB is power. The bigger the debt the more the power. ACC’s Wullie Young’s a millionaire landlord lawyer in his free time, in cooncil time he’s ACC Finance Convener, shock.

    SLab eh? But SLab leader Dugdale says “I’m gay and out now”, so vote SLab next week.

    The great UKOK shyste goes on.

  134. call me dave says:

    Kettle’s boiling darn Sarf!

    What now for Nicola Sturgeon and the rebels who became the Scottish establishment?


    Saudi sauce on a Chinese takeaway for Tony.
    Nicola’s just a beginner.

  135. galamcennalath says:

    Why no mention of Labour MP’s court appearance today in Glasgow … ANYWHERE?

    Imagine it had been an SNP MP! It would have been wall to wall coverage.

  136. what annoys me at times about headquarters, is not only
    don’t they hit back with the facts..

    They don’t even use the unionists own arguments against them.

    For example we are constantly bombarded by the unionists about how good the union is for Scotland.
    But Scotland can’t afford to be independent because it would bankrupt.

    Well now if that’s the case then such a union which has impoverished your country can’t possibly be good for your country and its people

  137. macnakamura says:



  138. Hamish100 says:

    galamcennalath says:

    Why no mention of Labour MP’s court appearance today in Glasgow … ANYWHERE?

    Because we do not have a free news media.

    Remember the case was previously thrown out by the “independent court” because the word Glasgow was omitted from the charges.
    So we have an English Labour MP travels to Scotland and allegedly kicks someone peacefully and lawfully handing out leaflets for the referendum.

    Full page spread in the Record Hootsmon and Herald tomorrow no doubt. No CHANCE

  139. call me dave says:

    Have you ever known auntie to let you down? 🙂

    She always keeps things hidden away in her handbag but it’s there.

    Labour MP Marie Rimmer accused of kicking Scottish Independence supporter

    T’was besides that spate of bicycle thefts article
    …police looking for suspects peddling stolen goods!

  140. call me dave says:

    Ho Ho! In the Herald.

    Your right! It’s not there ‘My apologies’

    Hmm! P J Proby

  141. heedtracker says:

    Toryboy eats toryboy.

    Government could ask BBC to trial pay service as it closes ‘iPlayer loophole’

    John Whittingdale will tell corporation to introduce passwords as part of TV licence crackdown, according to a report.

    Rancid The Graun’s still not got the stones for a paywall though. Torygraph stops you if you use adblock, “To continue reading, please disable your Ad Blocker for only The Telegraph website. Need help with this?

    If you are a subscriber, please log-in.”

    Really do not need help to catch up on that bunch of nutters.

  142. Jack Murphy says:

    TODAY.Marie Rimmer,Labour MP in Glasgow Sheriff Court on Referendum assault charge.
    “A Labour MP has gone on trial accused of kicking a “Yes” campaigner during the Scottish independence referendum.

    Marie Rimmer, 69, MP for St Helens South and Whiston, denies assaulting Patricia McLeish outside a Glasgow polling station on 18 September 2014.

    Giving evidence, Ms McLeish, 52, said the Merseyside MP spoke aggressively before kicking her on the shin outside Shettleston Community Centre.

    The trial at Glasgow Sheriff Court, has been adjourned until July…………………………………………..”


  143. Jim Thomson says:

    @galamcennalath the BBC (North region) has this

    ANOTHER adjournment. This time until July for some reason.

  144. chasanderson200 says:

    Marie Rimmer

  145. Legerwood says:

    I saw the last half hour of QT last night. What I did notice, apart from Kirkby’s constant interruptions, was the number of times Andy Burnham said he agreed with things that Mr Salmond had said. Quite taken aback that a Labour politician was agreeing with Mr Salmond.

    A rare occurrence which is probably why I noticed it.

  146. orri says:

    The reference to the assault might raise more charges than just the obvious physical one of the kick.

    It seems that Rimmer recognised the alleged victim and that, in my opinion obviously, intended to intimidate her either by threatening he position in her union or perhaps as an employee. She knew the answer before she asked the question.

    Perhaps this shit just got a bit more serious.

  147. Jim Graham says:


    Just been from Renfrew to the RAH in Paisley and back again and saw three large SNP billboards in prominent positions but absolutely nothing else from any other party. Are you sure the election is next week?

  148. Conan the Librarian™ says:

    @ Jim Graham

    Why waste money? They ken they’re going to lose. 🙂

  149. Jimmy Jackson says:

    O/T FYI
    Guardian users

    I bought a new laptop today and had it online for about 20 minutes before it started glitching. Pop ups everywhere, WARNINGS! Doom! Doom! etc.

    Called my isp tech support and got the expert to log in remotely. asked what I’d been doing before the glitches, told him I’d visited the Guardian website only. He checked it out and found a trojan virus embedded in the banner graphic on their front page.

    Had to install a lot of anti-virus sw and delete a heap of rogue files dumped into my root directory.

    Be safe folks

  150. Not Convinced says:

    Hoss Mackintosh said at 1:10 pm
    A “generation” is defined in Northern Ireland’s Good Friday agreement as seven years.

    As part of this agreement NI can hold a referendum on a United Ireland every seven years if the people of NI so wish.

    So if it is good enough for NI it is good enough for Scotland and the Edinburgh Agreement has already set the precedent.

    So 2021 seems a reasonable timescale for indyref2 unless of course there is a material change in circumstances – like for example Brexit!

    I’m sure many of us wouldn’t want to wait until 2021! However 2021 (or later) does have the “seven years” advantage you mention.

    Not matter when IndyRef2 rolls around the Unionists will insist that “it’s too soon”, however if it’s seven or more years after IndyRef1 then as soon as the first major unionist politician says that then someone needs to get in their face with a microphone and ask “Are you then proposing to unilaterally amend the Northern Irish peace agreements to reflect your views that 7 years is too soon?”.

  151. DerekM says:

    @ Jimmy Jackson

    Sounds like you need a new firewall Jimmy have a look at Comodo 😉

    Woohoo its brexit mania as yoons all go mental batshit crazy at each other ,your a racist your a nazi red tory blue tory whine,zoinist anti semite bad EU bad everything bad not our problem smoke bombs and mirrors wasnt us guv hide in the corner.

    Oh no the Scots are coming SNP bad quick change the rules new act of union,has anybody got anymore lies but but but they wont fall for it they keep telling us to fuck off.

    SNPx2 Oh and yoons fuck off.

  152. Balaaargh says:

    @Jimmy Jackson

    It’s known as a drive-by and is more common than you think. The advertising companies are targetted so that they then deliver ads which has been compromised. Subsequent sites, i.e., the Guardian in this case, embed the delivery system for the advertisers in their pages so are none the wiser when said advertiser inadvertently delivers malware to thousands of innocent users. It’s very effective for annoying a huge number of people in a short space of time.

    AV, malware protection and a software firewall is a must these days regardless of what OS you have and there are plenty of free examples – AVG, Avira, Sophos now do a free home version and many more.

    Ideally, one that includes website categorisation on their firewall component so you can disable all those pesky ads with a tickbox and hopefully prevent accidents if you end up clicking something you didn’t mean to.

  153. Kevin meina says:

    Saltcoats and Ardrossan hustings were held at the labour candidates former school and there were more labour councillors asking questions than the audience combined.
    The fact the chair compared an independent Scotland to the Balkans from the pulpit doesn’t help matters either and that was before the referendum.Amazes me why in the 21st century the church still try’s to preach what it’s congregation have to think and they call us a cult.

  154. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Jimmy Jackson @ 16:57,

    I highly recommend adding the Ghostery extension to your usual browser, if possible. It can suppress virtually all unwanted crud embedded on websites. Speeds everything up and seriously diminishes the chances of browser-vectored malware. (Can occasionally prevent full functionality of a website but can be tweaked to fix.)

  155. DerekM says:

    @ Balaaargh

    I totally agree you have to watch out especially if you are using win firewall its like an open highway into your reg and its updates are cloned and piggybacked with usually Trojans but can be worse like google redirects and they get into your win32system files very easy.

    I would also add Avast to your list of good free AV`s but your AV is only as good as your firewall,there are many good free ones of those as well i stated my preference in my last post 🙂

    But you must remember to go into your services and disable win firewall or it will keep letting viruses in it really is pathetic.

  156. Ruby says:

    I wonder if we will wait as long for the result of the Marie Rimmer trail as we are for the Chilcot Enquiry?

    Something weird about this case.
    1st it’s delayed until after the General Election then there was the blunder re omitting Glasgow now it’s delayed until after the Holyrood Election in the meantime Marie Rimmer has been given a role in the Justice committee.

  157. Clootie says:

    What happened to Wings?
    I appear to have been re-directed to an IT site 🙁

  158. call me dave says:

    Only an excuse to print ….SNP bad.

    Cauld Kail all over Scotland reheated.

  159. Robert Peffers says:

    @Iain More says: 29 April, 2016 at 1:15 am:

    “The Brit/English Nationalists just cant help themselves no matter what side of the EU debate they are on.”

    Indeed so, Iain. I noted the same old BritNat total bollox as usual, “If you love this country of Britain”.

    Trouble is Britain has never, (since we have had recorded British history), ever been a single unified country. It is now, as it always has been, an archipelago that contains several disparate countries.

    There are in fact eight of them.
    Northern Ireland,
    The Irish Republic,
    The Bailiwick of Jersey,
    The Bailiwick of Guernsey,
    The Isle of Man.

    Of these eight only four are member countries governed by the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland Parliament. However, the three Crown Dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey and Man are obviously part of Her Majesty’s realm, or Kingdom yet not parts of the UK government.

    Yet these total idiots keep waffling on about, “This Country”, and use that same term to apply to both Britain and the United Kingdom. One wonders what form of education teaches these people such poor English language, British history and simple Geography.

    Worse still they seem to also apply the term, “England”, as if that too were all Britain.

    Could there be anything more humiliating for England than the Prime Minister of, “Her Majesty’s Government of Her United Kingdom”, standing before the World’s media and trotting out the obvious wrong statement that he was, for example, sending in, “The British Army”, when there is no such military force.

    He also often claims he heads, “The British Government”, or even that it is, “His Government”, when the World knows it is, “Her Majesty’s Government”.#

    I wonder if the numptie believes his own lies?

  160. DerekM says:

    @ Ruby

    Damage limitations Ruby yoons are running around sticking plasters on all the holes in yoon titanic hoping they can board them up later,wasnt unexpected move along nothing to see here look shiny shiny beads.

    And as for the coverage of it well its not like we expected them to crucify one of their own in front of us.

    But if Madam kick old ladies thinks we are going to forget about it she had better think again.

  161. sinky says:

    The Rimmer case stinks and prosecution has been either incomptent or deliberately protecting the establishment from politcal embarrassment.

  162. Rock says:

    To think that people voted No because they “hated” Alex Salmond.

    The most stupid people on the planet.

  163. DerekM says:

    Aye Rock got to agree with you on that,its a pity they probably have never met Eck ,i am fortunate to say i have bumped into him a few times and you could never meet a nicer fellow.

    But dont mess with him when it comes to politics he will rip you a new one lol

  164. sinky says:

    What other run of the mill assault case takes almost two years to come to trial after first court appearance?

  165. @Robert @ 6.47pm

    … nor forgetting KERNOW (Cornwall), one of our Celtic cousins!

  166. Iain More says:


    Well I hear that Sally Magnusson got a hard time from the Sturgeonator. Pity it wasn’t that Burd creature!

  167. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Tim Criced i Gymru.

    Cornwall’s not forgotten, my friend. It’s on the ceiling in Hamilton SNP hub, with the Welsh and Catalan flag.

    Sleepers, awake!

  168. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “Worse still they seem to also apply the term, “England”, as if that too were all Britain.”

    Do you have any objection to Gordon Brown calling Scotland “North Britain”?

  169. Rock says:


    “Aye Rock got to agree with you on that,its a pity they probably have never met Eck ,i am fortunate to say i have bumped into him a few times and you could never meet a nicer fellow.”

    I have never met Eck.

    But it is hardly rocket science to conclude that he is a sincere politician with the best interests of Scotland as his top priority.

    I hope he will be independent Scotland’s first head of state.

    No place for the likes of a purring queen in an independent Scotland.

  170. Andy.D says:

    Ref twathater @03.15
    Well said mate could not agree more, SNP x2 EU OUT OUT OUT.

  171. DerekM says:

    @ Clootie

    The Rev has gave wings some new hardware might have been something to do with that Clootie.

    Oh and great job Rev and gulp thats quite a stack of cash,i know you need it but ever had a thought about getting some cash back from those wankers google adsense pays quite well in the world of bitcoin just a thought it would mean having to put up with shit adverts though and with your traffic well i think you could make a bob or two back.

    Maybe something to ask the wingers it could be another source of income to the cause,dony hit me with your hammer its just an out there idea lol

  172. Harry Shanks says:

    @Iain More

    Yes, Sally Magnusson got well skelped by Nicola – so much so she fluffed her lines on the next news item.


  173. Dan Huil says:

    Ref 2014: Lazy, vacant No voters: ” ’cause I hate Aliksammin”

    Ref 20??: Lazy, even more vacant No voters: ” ’cause Aliksammin said once in a lifetime”

  174. frogesque says:

    @ Rock 7.33

    King Alexander IV does have a certain ring to it lol.

  175. Luigi says:

    Dan Huil says:

    29 April, 2016 at 7:40 pm

    Ref 2014: Lazy, vacant No voters: ” ’cause I hate Aliksammin”

    Ref 20??: Lazy, even more vacant No voters: ” ’cause Aliksammin said once in a lifetime”

    “And besides, Eastenders is on, it’s raining and I cannot be arsed voting NO again”. 🙁

  176. KOF says:

    I’m sorry Mr Peffers (18:47), but I have to say something about your assertation that the Balliwicks of Jersey and Guernsey are part of the “British Isles”. They are not physically part of the geographical entity known as the British Isles. They are a group of islands off the French coast.

    They were part of the Duchy of Normandy,an area of France. (where ol’ William the Bastard came from) France is most definitely not part of the British Isles. The only reason anyone calls them “British” is because they were a possesion of the monarchs of England. This was the only bit of the Duchy of Normandy that the successors of William the Conqueror managed to hold on to.

    They are nothing but a quirk of history left over from the Norman invasion of England.

    You’ve made many comments about the correct use of “Britain” and “British” on WoS. This is pretty much the only thing I’ve ever disagreed with you about. You do a rather good job in educating people about history. I do enjoy your comments. Keep ’em up.

    Just because historical imperial propaganda says they’re British, it doesn’t mean we have to keep repeating it.

    Whatever the Chanel Islands are, they still ain’t “British”.

  177. DerekM says:

    @ Rock

    I think you will find that is the last thing Eck wants Rock ,what he wants is a parliament governing the people of Scotland the correct way through consent of the population,to uphold the position given to them by the electorate to always look after the people first and be open and accountable to the people he has fought with those principles all his days even in the face of that monster Thatcher.

    He is not some god neither does he want to be he is just like you or me and if we can achieve that then im sure it will be time to sit back and let Nicola that wee lassie he tought everything he knew get on with the job of fixing Scotland and well deserved it will be.

    There is not a man in Scotland or women that has done more for the independence movement than Eck he has been fighting all his life at the sharp end.

  178. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    I’ve always thought that the sometime expressed dislike of Salmond (and indeed Sturgeon too) was mostly due to their effective presentation of a case that the disliker wished to avoid. The better the case made, the more the beliefs of the disliker are shaken, setting up an internal conflict that instead of being resolved in a better understanding of reality, instead surfaces as a raw dislike for the proponent of the case. It has very little to do with the personality of the proponent and rather more to do with that of the disliker; it’s a psychological thing, (quasi-)adult frustration at no longer being able to simply put fingers in the ears and say “naa-naa-naa-naaah”.

  179. Rock says:


    “@ Rock

    “I think you will find that is the last thing Eck wants Rock”.

    But it might be the first thing that the citizens of independent Scotland will want!

    No House of Lords in Scotland.

    But an elected head of state to uphold a written constitution and to deal with “foreign” heads of state.

    Including the purring queen of a “foreign” neighbour.

  180. Iain says:

    Is it not time the people of Scotland were free from this unequal union. It is plain wrong that the people of Scotland subsidise the uk while people in Scotland are in dire need. We need to be free. Scotland can be an example of how to run a country for the benefit of the people rather than for the benefit of the elite that run the uk. A vote on Thursday for the SNP 1 and 2 will help start the process.

  181. Rock says:

    Robert J. Sutherland,

    “it’s a psychological thing, (quasi-)adult frustration at no longer being able to simply put fingers in the ears and say “naa-naa-naa-naaah”.”

    For the vast majority of the selfish middle classes, the elderly and the English who were never going to vote Yes, it was simply an excuse.

    Anyone else who voted No because they “hated” Alex Salmond are the most stupid people on the planet.

  182. galamcennalath says:

    Rock says:

    “Including the purring queen of a “foreign” neighbour.”

    … or their puffing King Charles. 😎

  183. DerekM says:

    lol i think Eck will just point you to Nicola and say in a free Scotland there is your head of state the person you vote to be the First Minister you dont need all the rest of the bollocks all they do is get in the way of government.

    And of course if he did say that he would be right lol

  184. Iain says:

    In my new business capacity I am surprised that the elderly section of Scotland is so favorably disposed to the Snp. Pensioners seem to like the Snp’s tax policy and their sensible don’t rock the boat policies. Just saying, that is what they are saying. Don’t forget vote SNP,SNP on Thursday.

  185. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Robert J. Sutherland.

    I think what you’re alluding to is ‘Cognitive Dissonance’.

  186. DerekM says:

    @ Iain

    Been getting similiar feedback Iain even had two old ladies today saying they were never voting tory again seems they are appalled at not giving those poor kids a new home,you could have knocked me down with a feather tories with a heart a rare thing.

    Never quite convinced them to vote SNP but they do like Nicola “aye she`s a nice lassie better than that Alex Salmond yin” ,well its strange its not politics that drive some people but appearance,i guess that could be a conditioning of the britnat propoganda.

    And they were really unsure about indy but i talked to them about how it could even be possible in an indy Scotland that there would be a place for real conservatism and not that phony stuff neo liberals hide behind in westminster,they seemed to like that.

  187. Joemcg says:

    Rock-that use of the word foreign to describe our English neighbours. Nothing throws the nawbags into a rage like it! They have lost the plot with me many a time on comment threads over it. I’ve been called racist on three occasions. Was great fun!

  188. Inverclyder says:


    70 jobs going at Tannoy in Coatbridge. Moving the jobs to China and to Manchester.

    Remember we’re better together!

    Elsewhere the Large Hadron Collider was shut down due to a weasel caused a short circuit.

    At least we now know where Carmichael disappeared to.

  189. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    Yes, that seems to be part of it, followed by some kind of transference of dislike onto the perceived source of the dissonance. (I expect that’s already well known to psychologists too!)

    Interestingly for the SNP succession, Sturgeon being female has perhaps already reduced that animosity to a certain extent.

    Which all folds in to how to convert a sufficient proportion of the more tractable “No” voters. Hence the emollience and perceived slowness of the SNPs approach to this election and the frustration of the Unionist media who seem all of a sudden to be terribly “disappointed” that the SNP isn’t more “radical”.

  190. Capella says:

    Apologies if this has been posted. The trial of Marie Rimmer, accused of assaulting a YES campaigner in Glasgow in 2014, has been adjourned until July.

    You have to scroll down to 15.07 for the item.

  191. call me dave says:

    Sturgeon on Reporting shortbread tonight.
    About 08mins 40secs in.

    Magnusson in strident mood and goes for the jugular early on.
    Sturgeon not taking any shit!

  192. Iain More says:

    re The Alicsamin hate nonsense.

    I know a lot of folk that said they disliked or hated him but still voted for him. I know a few folk who like him but would never vote for him. The Salmond haters Cult is as far as I am concerned just a branch of the Thatcher Cult.

    I watch my very elderly now mither when any politicians are on the box and she happened to like him, Salmond that is, for reasons best known to herself.

    With Nicola there is genuine warmth when she notes her on the goggle box. That is without necessarily agreeing with her politics.

    When confronted with Cameron on the box there is dark mutterings that come close to the dark sayings she utters about Thatcher. I think the only other figure that she showers equal loathing on is Donald Trump. Ruth Davidson she recognises instantly and just mutters coorse bitch that ane.

    Willie Rennie reduces her to stitches, he is like a wee monkey is amongst her kinder utterances on him. Farage and Coburn both get the off or change channel button and the cynical retort of fit div they wunt.

    Look out for Sturgeon being the recipient of a we hate Nicola Sturgeon campaign if it hasn’t started already that is. She is way more popular and liked with the oldies than Salmond ever was as far as I can see and that is going to incur the wrath of the Brit Nat Thatcher Cultists with interest.

    I keep expecting A resurrection of the most dangerous woman in the UK campaign that had absolutely no success at the last GE.

    Oh and my mithers reaction to Carmichael is one of repellence. The Fiberals are keeping him well out of the way right now, it makes me wonder if he has ben locked in a cell by the folks at a certain Trust who made big donations to his wallet.

  193. Bill Hume says:

    Cornwall……ah lovely Cornwall, place of love and memories.
    Do you think, when Scotland is independent, we might get the Cornish people to join us.
    That would be nice.

  194. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 29 April, 2016 at 7:25 pm:

    ” … Do you have any objection to Gordon Brown calling Scotland “North Britain”?”

    As Brown was my MP throughout his entire political career I object to everything about the man and I always have.

  195. North chiel says:

    Ref. Iain at 0915pm . Perhaps some Scottish pensioners are beginning to
    see through the ” better together con” prior to the referendum with the Tories subsequently
    ” cheating” women in their fifties out of 5-6 years state pension and also raising the nic threshold requirement for a full state pension from 30 to 35 qualifying years.Additionally and simoultaneously the retirement age is being continually increased towards 70 years and undoubtedly beyond this
    with continued Westminster Tory rule.
    Why don’t the SNP play them at their ” own game” pre Indyref 2 , and offer Scottish pensioners a ” citizens pension” , set at the ” average” European state pension? This could be part of our independence negotiations following a ” yes vote” after Indy 2.I am sure JS can drive a hard bargain with the London Treasury.

  196. otherdemons says:

    I don’t get a vote in the EU referendum, as I only hold a EU passport not a British one. I can only hope the people of Scotland do indeed deliver a strong Remain vote. My dream scenario would actually be an Indy Scotland within the EU and England out. (Sorry Wales and NI as I have no clue where that would leave you).
    The arguments of the ‘Brexiteers’ are so dishonest, but again, what do we expect from the establishment – which, as an aside, UKIP are very much a part of. ‘Take control of borders to establish a point based immigration system’ – they’re probably dreaming of getting even cheaper Indian labour in. Read up on H1B visas in the US and how many thousands of American workers have lost their jobs as a result. (Whatever you read about workers being fully dependent on their employers and having their passports confiscated in the Middle East – H1Bs arent far off.)
    Incidentally, this is also very much why the USA very much want the UK to remain the EU. So Westminster can keep lobbying for more deregulation, privatisations etc. Read up about how the UK government’s actually pushing the worst parts of TTIP – and yet some of the same people involved in the Brexit campaign will use this as a reason to get out… what kind of trade agreement would they be willing to get?..
    Project Fear was disgusting, but sometimes I think even that didn’t get to the level of dishonesty of the Brexit campaign.
    I’ll admit I have strong personal interest in the UK remaining in the EU – would I get kicked out unless my employer increases my pay to 35k or whatever unlikely random figure way above the UK median wage the government decides? And yet I can’t help thinking the EU can only improve once it gets rids of the UK.

  197. Robert Peffers says:

    @KOF says: 29 April, 2016 at 8:02 pm:

    ” … Whatever the Chanel Islands are, they still ain’t “British”.”

    Perhaps not, KOF. They are, however, most certainly part of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom as Crown Protectorates and most certainly are NOT ruled by Her Majesty’s Government of her United Kingdom.

    If it comes to that, Wales was not part of The English Kingdom until after the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284.

    Edward was forced to spend long periods in Wales and he slowly exerted English influence. He chipped away at Welsh Law and replaced it with English Law and English legal traditions. One of his tools to that end was The Statute of Rhuddlan.

    Likewise Ireland was part of Britain but not part of the Kingdom of England, (Although Edward did declare himself, “Lord of Ireland”).

    It was not until Edward forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, in 1542, that Ireland became legally,(?), part of the Kingdom of England.

  198. DerekM says:

    If you are in Scotland otherdemons just let them try and kick you out we will not stand for it and actually is one of those triggers to indy you will have heard us mention.

    We Scots have taking the generousity of all nations in the world,there are more of us out in the world than live here,and we will not stand back and let some English twat ruin our friendship with peoples from all over or throw them out our country Scotland without a fight.

  199. otherdemons says:

    @ North chiel

    I got one of the SNP leaflets through my door today – not sure whether it was the local constituency one or a regional one as I’m in NS’s constituency. (I’m just binning all leaflets, after giving some of them a quick browse, as Ive already sent my postal vote)
    5 bullet points – and the last one was about protecting pensioners universal benefits. So the SNP is addressing that demographic in terms of this campaign and the little the Scottish Parliament can do.
    I definitely agree though that if we get Indyref 2 pensions are something the SNP and Yes campaign need to be a lot more clever about. It’s still mindboggling that they let Gordon Brown of all people scare pensioners into voting no.

  200. george wood says:

    Re what was said about future referendums, it was covered in the Scotland’s Future document.

    In response to the question “If Scotland votes no, will there be another referendum?”

    The response was

    “The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence.

    It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty that Scotland will be independent.”

    To me as a Yes voter, it was pretty clear that the Yes campaign was promoting the once in a generation thing to counter the threat of the neverendum accusation.

    I am surprised that people on here seemed to have forgotten that.

    Albeit, it is correct to say that once in a lifetime is wrong, as a lifetime is much longer than a generation.

  201. Bill Hume says:

    otherdemons says:
    29 April, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    “I don’t get a vote in the EU referendum, as I only hold a EU passport not a British one.”

    I had not realised that only British citizens could vote on this. I assumed that all legal residendts of the UK could vote.

    In the next Scottish referendum, should not the same rule apply…..i.e. only Scots should be allowed to vote??

  202. yesindyref2 says:

    @Call me dave
    Thanks for the iplayer link, just watching it. But meanwhile, take a gander at this:

    knew it rang a bell. Now, what’s the message there from La Sturgeon …

  203. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, having watched that now, firstly I think Sally Magnusson was just doing her job, and second I think Brian Taylor waffled and seized on what he wanted to say, which wasn’t the same as Sturgeon said.

  204. b says:

    Ah, the prisoner…….he drove a Caterham Seven, Now I know why I bought a Caterham Seven. Never give up, never accept you are just a number.
    I still have my Seven but I was forced to take all the Yes stickers off it after the referendum…………….it looked like the script from a porn movie….yes yes yes yes YES YES YES …..ETC.

  205. Returnofthemac says:

    Trying to find the interview from tonight’s BBC Scotland news Sally v Nicola. On I Player I can find BBC Wales, BBC NI, but no BBC Scotland. Curiouser and Curiouser.
    Any suggestions?

  206. Capella says:

    @ george wood
    “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

    Equally it is correct that the “current Scottish government” will not be the same as the 2014 Scottish government after May 5th.

    I’m surprised you haven’t noticed that.

  207. Iain More says:


    Some things I have been looking for answers to but I cant seem to find the stats on them.

    Does anybody know how many Postal Votes were cast at the Brit GE in Scotland? Does anybody know what percentage of Postal Votes sent out were actually used?

    I just had a mate tell me that the STV Poll earlier in week was predicting a possible turn out of 74%. That would be an even higher turn out than the Brit GE last year of 71.1% in Scotland if that did indeed happen.

  208. yesindyref2 says:

    @george wood
    Not so much that I think, more because there were a good number of people saying “we’re not ready for it yet, maybe in a few years”. I heard that a few times, and I’m sure other YES campaigners would have heard the same thing/

    To them the message was “vote YES now, there might not be another chance for a long time”.

    Anyway, it’s only the bitter ones of the NO activists really care, I doubt any of the 90% non-active electorate care. Adter all, we have elections every five years.

    So the more the Unionists keep on and on and on and on about it, the better, the more it makes people think. It seems they’ve inadvertently joined the YES campaign – even before YES 2 has really started! They’re doing a great job, let’s just leave them to it.

    (f^ck ’em)

  209. yesindyref2 says:

    This worked for me, from call me dave:

  210. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @George Wood (10.34) –

    ‘People on here’ are accustomed to assessing quotes in the original context.

    I have the full version of ‘Scotland’s Future’ in front of me. Could you please cite the page you’re referring to?

    Is it page i of the introduction, page viii (first page of Alex Salmond’s statement) or elsewhere?

    Cheers! 🙂

  211. Gary45% says:

    What do you get if you morph Toodleoothenoo, K wi an E, Wrinkly Burd and Bitter Magnuson?


    A Wullie Rennie,

    Pointless, Clueless and a complete embarrassment.
    Message to the Yoons,
    You must try harder.
    6 days to go,
    Tick Tock

  212. Returnofthemac says:

    Yesindyref2/ call me Dave.

    Thanks for that.

  213. otherdemons says:

    Thanks DerekM and I don’t doubt it for a second!
    I think in 15 years in Scotland, I only once got some sort of abuse for being a foreigner, some nutjob starting shouting stuff about foreigners stealing jobs as he heard me and a mate speaking in our native language across the street. We just laughed it off – some old guy out of a boozer, not worth the effort.

    I think my levels of hatred towards Westminster are peaking just now not just because of the referendum, but also as I’ve been reading Owen Jones’s book about the establishment. I’m aware some here will dismiss him because he writes for the Grauniad – and to be honest it’s one of my few criticisms of his book so far, as he fails to recognise the Guardian itself really is part of all this, not just a few individuals who have written for it in the past. But other than that, it’s a sad confirmation of what many of us are thinking. I’m not even halfway through, but the bits about the right-wing thinktanks in particular are very interesting.

  214. Gary45% says:

    OOOPs forgot to mention the Shortbread “health”???? W.T.F? correspondent Bradford, then again she is as clueless as the rest. I think she once wrote a line about changing a plaster, “aye an expert”.

  215. scottieDog says:

    Glasgow uni, proving it’s very much part of the establishment. ..

  216. Dave McEwan Hill says:


    Went into Marks and Spencer in Greenock today to buy some jeans. At the entrance to the food hall was a stall with a very prominent display of the Daily Mail with a huge hateful anti SNP front page. No other newspaper display of any sort. Turned round and walked out. Will check with Head office on Monday what M&S are playing at.

  217. Breeks says:

    Thinking about the Sarah Smith reference do “We’d never do that”, refering to the Labour party, and the strange coincidence of Sally Magnusson coming to the fore; wasn’t Magnusson another Labourite caught out by a similar outburst when the SNP first won their Scottish election?

    “What will WE do now?” wailed our neutral and oh-so-professional Ms Magnusson to Mags Curran if memory serves…

    Can’t beat the BBC for consistency, nor its partner in crime, the Labour Party for the nepotism…

  218. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    It is on page 556

    557. If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on
    independence at a later date?

    The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be
    held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for
    another referendum on independence.

    It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a
    referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means
    that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty
    that Scotland will be independent.

  219. Kenny says:

    Help ma boab, Sally aged visibly five years in the course of that interview.

    BBC bosses down in Westminster will nae be happy with Sally the nicht — and doesn’t she know it from the expression on her face at the end of the interview!

    Nicola in top form — or does it just seem that way to us after hapless Dugdale and blustering “this tank is firing blanks” Ruth?

  220. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bill Hume @22:38 said:

    I had not realised that only British citizens could vote on this. I assumed that all legal residents of the UK could vote.

    I know long-term residents of Scotland who have raised fine kids here, contributed to worthy social causes, properly paid their taxes, can & will vote for Holyrood, but because they are Continentals (never had need to change) are deemed unworthy to vote in the Tory EUref. And are hopping mad about it.

    As those pesky American colonial rebels rightly said: “no taxation without representation”.

  221. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    That’s the way to do it.


  222. heedtracker says:

    For not the last time

    “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

    means, “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

    which translated into English means, “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

    A once in a generation “opportunity” does NOT mean a once in generation referendum.

    I’m sure that if the Scottish government had meant that the 2014 referendum was the only one in generation, they would probably not have chosen the word “opportunity.”

    A once in a generation “opportunity,” is completely different from once in a generation referendum.

    Opportunity, referendum, referendum, opportunity… NOT the same things.

    DO you want it in other languages?

    Gelegenheit, consultative referendum. German

    Opportunité, référendum. French

  223. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Just a geek Ian and if you’ve not mesmerised the entire White Paper you know you’re just going to fail your next Wings exam 🙂

  224. Inverclyder says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    29 April, 2016 at 11:14 pm

    Heard it’s closing down and moving to the new “Retail Park” in Port Glasgow.

    Been trying out find out if there’s any info on the £81,000 Councillors toilet refurb.

    Perhaps Regional High Commander McCabe of Labour Branch North Britain Office Subdivision knows.

    Had seen a tweet about it but don’t know if it’s true or not although nothing would surprise me with that mob.

  225. Thepnr says:


    And as Capella points out the government we elect next week will not be the same as the “current government” that called the first referendum.

    A new government if it so chooses with the backing of the people of Scotland can call a referendum at a time of its choosing as far as I’m concerned.

    That’s what elections are for.

  226. DerekM says:

    lol good to see you back Robert and the ? marks were a clever addition or you might have had me off on one of my Irish rants cant help it i take that from my mother a Limerick lassie 😉

    The one thing a lot of people forget is that cartography is a tool of propaganda and its worth remembering just who made the maps as they were the tools to claim the rights to other nations.

    Some of the imperial maps made at the time of empire are a living proof of how cartography can play a large part in conquering other nations and robbing them of their right to self determination.

    I would link to a site i know but i think most of you would smash up your pc if i did its a full on britnat empire look how great we are didnt we really help the world by stealing all their countries and killing their civilians they should all be grateful we dicided to rob them blind rule Brittania god save the queen.

    It sends shivers down my spine how they portrait being the biggest bunch of facists ever to darken the door of the world as some sort of saintly divine peaceful force of good throughout the world.

    They were a bunch of nazi`s and still are.

  227. NeoconNat says:

    Thanks for the iPlayer link, Call Me Dave.

    Didn’t realise Sally Magnusson cared so much about child welfare until I watched that. Anyone know what sort of wage she is on? Couple of hundred grand maybe? More? It’s public money so I guess it’s at least that much.

    Capella makes a good point — the government view quoted only lasts as long as the government lasts.

    And I agree with Indyref2, although the point he makes could be clearer: the emphasis on “once in a life time” by the SNP was obviously intended to motivate people to vote and grasp the rare opportunity offered by the referendum. Basically it was rhetorical and everyone knows that.

    As I see it, two options were open to the SNP in terms of pursuing independence and a second referendum. Sturgeon has clearly chosen the long and more responsible of the two which means we wait and suffer and hope for a chance to pounce.

    There are huge risks with this approach. For one thing, there can be no guarantee that public opinion in the face of incessant media lies and propaganda will ever move substantially in the right direction. It might even go in the other direction over time.

    I rule out the likelihood of Brexit happening. The odds have shortened but it’s still a thousand to one as I see it; there’s no way they’d be so stupid. The best we can hope for here is that the in-out argument results in the Tory party ripping itself to pieces, and it probably will.

    An additional risk with the path we are on is the very real possibility that the UK will move to lock Scotland into some new constrictive federal structure. Actually that process has already started and, looking at the direction of travel, this would potentially make Scottish independence impossible forever.

    The second approach that would have been considered by Sturgeon and the SNP, and probably dismissed quite quickly, would have been to challenge the legitimacy of the 2014 referendum and agitate for a re-run. We all know there was a case for going down this road; no need to go over it all again.

    I think it was a mistake to dismiss this alternative approach but, granted, there’s no denying it could have resulted in all sorts of instability and uncertainty. A quiet acceptance of the 2014 result would have been quite understandable, but the SNP have been very outspoken and vocal in that acceptance and that’s something I’ll never understand.

  228. otherdemons says:

    @Bill Hume
    It’s slightly more complicated than that.
    The Scottish elections count as ‘local elections’ and therefore EU citizens resident in Scotland are allowed a vote.
    That’s the electoral roll that was used for the Referendum on Independence.
    For UK elections, there is a bizarre twist that allows Commonwealth citizens to get a vote. That’s the electoral roll in use for the EU Referendum. So UK residents who hold passports from Australia, India and Ghana amongst others get a vote. I believe only EU passports from Cyprus and Malta allow a vote in the EU ref. And obviously more questions to be asked as to why British residing in the EU cannot vote either.

    As to your ‘should only Scottish citizens get a vote’ question – I do resent that a tiny bit – although I will readily admit that getting a vote for Holyrood and in the Scottish referendum is actually a lot more than other EU countries will allow – often it’s nothing more than town council elections. But a couple of things to counter that: 1/ if you give all residents the vote then it’s more difficult for your opponents to accuse you of ethnic nationalism 2/ yes, more residents from the EU voted No than voted Yes, but I think it was a closer result than it was from the English no vote 3/ i’d argue this helps integration. the old ‘no taxation without representation’ argument in a way.

    During the Ref I had an interesting conversation with other expats over dinner – would we give up whatever voting rights we still have in our home countries for full voting rights here – no clear-cut majority actually. But whenever you think about whether all permanent residents should be given a vote I think it’s a hypothetical question you should consider – which would matter more to you? The politics of where you reside, or the politics of where you come from?

  229. Ian Brotherhood says:

    NeoconNat should perhaps consider using his mother tongue (whatever it is) when he drops in here – his ‘English’, impeccable as it is, just isn’t getting any traction.

  230. stonefree says:

    @ Kevin meina says:29 April, 2016 at 6:04 pm
    Was that the one where a party ask why they weren’t invited and a member of the clergy went “off on one” at them.
    (Doing my level best to being reasonable)

  231. Gary45% says:

    Dave McEwan Hill@11.14
    No idea which newspapers are in M&S, as the wife and I stopped giving them money at the referendum.
    Someone mentioned earlier about complaining to the EBC, don’t waste your time, STOP paying the licence fee and watch it on the I player and on demand.
    Its a great feeling knowing you are not giving the Bastards a penny and still LEGALLY watching the EBC whilst flicking them the Vs.

  232. Ian Brotherhood says:

    With all the Livingstone palaver rumbling on, perhaps useful to have a swatch at this, by Orwell, in 1945.

    Plus ca change, eh?

  233. heedtracker says:

    From history, May 2007

    “The Scottish Sun front page featured a hangman’s noose in the shape of an SNP logo. “Vote SNP today and you put Scotland’s head in the noose,” it cried. The Daily Mail was equally direct: “This man wants to destroy Great Britain,” it screamed over a picture of Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, looking shifty. The Daily Record, the second largest-selling tabloid in Scotland, ran a front page editorial attacking the nationalists. “Do not sleepwalk into independence. Do not let a protest vote break up Britain”.

    Daily Record creeps trumped themselves with their historic The Vow shyste on Scotland 2014 but far right Sun now says SNP x 2, rancid the Graun says

  234. Morgatron says:

    NeoconNat, that rhymes with twat. Why oh why do you bother. Thats all.

  235. Thepnr says:

    The clergy of course are a big part of the establishment. That’s why we have Bishops in the HOL and the Queen as head of the church in England.

    They are there to “put the fear of God into you”.

    Why anyone would fear a benevolent God is a puzzle? Good way to keep the plebs in their place though I guess.

    Scandals? What scandals? Cover up? What cover up?

  236. Chic McGregor says:

    TBF I think Sally M is a soft No at worse. Perhaps she is in later life moving more toward the pro-indy stance of her father.

  237. otherdemons says:

    I really should just go and sleep but I’ll take NeoconNat’s bait for a second. Not going to put as much effort into it as into earlier posts mind you.

    The Tories may rip themselves to shreds following a remain vote..but how interested will the media be in covering that?
    As for IndyRef #2 – obvious dangers from calling it too soon, see Quebec etc. As for questioning the acceptance of the result – the result would have had to be a lot more closer – 49.x v 50.x to even be a possibility.

    Night folks!

  238. Ian Brotherhood says:

    In 1997 it was ‘were you up for Portillo?’

    Next Friday, will it be ‘were you up for Willie?’

  239. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Chic McG –

    Seriously? Was Magnus a Yes man?

  240. DerekM says:

    @ otherdemons

    Dont worry mate we have it under control 😉

    And i disagree with the only Scots should get a vote if our message isnt strong enough to convince people from other countries that independence is the logical choice for us Scots and our wee country then we need to work harder at that.

    If anything we are going to need our friends in Europe and other areas to help out, Scotland has been under a population cull policy to keep us from growing and to grow in indy we are going to need those people,though i have a feeling getting the help will be no problem.

    Plus you guys know what we are like just wait until we send a delegation to the EU we will soon shake things up if they like it or not,because you see even though we are fighting for our freedom we are also at the same time fighting against neo liberalism and the parliamentary lie of right and left democracy.

    I think our mes amies in France have figured that out about the so called socialists establishment party in their country vive la France.

  241. Kevin meina says:

    Stone free at 11.52 yes that was the one the manhandling of Rise guy was a bit o/t

  242. george wood says:


    I’m not sure what referendum campaign you were involved in but in the real one there was no doubt that the Yes campaign made it clear this was to be a once in a generation thing.

    I remember thinking at the time that if we lost and then tried to hold another one soon we were going to have to come up with some way round that guarantee.

    The part of my post you didn’t address explains why they had to say it. The prospect of a neverendum situation was a big vote loser and the Unionists played on that to make the Yes campaign make the promise. This would useful to the Uionists if they won and a referendum was mooted after.

  243. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @George Wood –

    You are a rank amateur.

    Please request advice from someone like NeoconNat on how to do it properly.

    Otherwise, scarper.

  244. Grouse Beater says:

    George Wood: “there was no doubt that the Yes campaign made it clear this was to be a once in a generation thing.”

    The Yes campaign wasn’t all voters.

    If anything motivation came from NOT GETTING A PLEBISCITE IN 300 YEARS!!!

    Exactly how do you rally the troops saying, don’t worry, if you can’t be bothered to vote there’s another chance coming along soon.

  245. DerekM says:

    Aye Ian oor Dave just cant seem to find the staff anymore told him he should never have let the tea boy go lol

  246. call me dave says:

    As the SNP surge, have Glasgow City Council’s ‘Labour Lads’ already chucked it for 2017?

    Whether or not the SNP has the personnel, talent and skills to take the reins at several major councils in such financially tumultuous times is one for later.

    But right now it seems the Glasgow Politburo is waving a white flag not the red one.

  247. K1 says:

    Naw, what was clear is that the No campaign ‘jumped’ on this statement to push the idea of a ‘neverendum’ into the minds of the potential No voters, as a battering stick to use against the Yes side.

    It was the ‘media’ who disseminated this statement and have pushed it ever since to make out that the SNP/Alex Salmond are in someway ‘sly’. Which was in keeping with the already widely held view of the staunch No voters who have this ‘irrational’ hatred of Alex.

    If you are really interested in the facts then you have to take on board what others are pointing out here, because it does actually ‘defuse’ the ‘neverendum’ pish:

    ‘..It is the view of the current Scottish Government…’ from Scotland’s Future and that it was a ‘personal opinion’ of Alex Salmond’s.

    The idea of the ‘neverendum’ came later in the campaign from the No side, I recall it, as quite suddenly during the summer of 2014 my No voting mother happened to use this exact phrase, a phrase she had never uttered before it was published in the papers. It’s the same wi the ‘silent majority’, every fucking No voter on the planet jumped at any nugget from better together that found it’s find way intae the papers or news.

    I didn’t have to watch any news, just nipped tae ma maws and ah knew what the No campaigns latest pish was.

  248. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Aye, it’s all been a bit ‘boring’, and it must be tortuous now for the candidates, even for Wee Wullie, who’s long-since completed his bucket-list.

    But we will, surely, get some gems next Friday, early morning, as we finish the last of the snacks and drain the cans.

    No matter what happens, you wouldn’t want to ‘miss it’, eh?
    It’s the closest we’ll ever get to a ‘Superbowl’ in Scottish politics.

    Memory-lane stuff…

  249. call me dave says:

    Scottish Labour ‘at war’ over Trident

    Campaigners blast government’s Named Person pack for parents

  250. K1 says:

    Oh and that’s because No voters didn’t do ‘research’ they preferred their thinking done by those they have been accustomed to doing their thinking for them…y’know…their betters.

  251. Thepnr says:

    @george wood

    Would be interested in your view on this expose by Nick Clegg with reference to a 2nd referendum:

    THE former deputy prime minister has told how he had grown “increasingly bemused” by Ruth Davidson’s attempts to position the Scottish Conservatives as the party to safeguard the Union.

    Nick Clegg has revealed his former coalition partners David Cameron and George Osborne aimed to sow discord between Scotland and England for “short-term political advantage” at the risk of precipitating a second indyref.

    The former LibDem leader said his position at the heart of Government meant he witnessed Conservatives’ efforts to find an electoral edge at the expense of what he describes as “the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people”.

    It follows claims from party colleague David Laws that Mr Cameron made clear immediately after the referendum that he did not care about Scotland.

    Writing in The Times, Mr Clegg said: “It was the morning after the referendum when the mask really slipped.

    “As the result became clear, David Cameron and George Osborne’s first reaction was to genuflect to their English backbenchers and antagonise Scottish voters by turning the debate immediately towards the divisive issue of ‘English Votes for English Laws’.

    I reckon I know where the REAL betrayal to the Scottish people lies.

  252. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thanks for that Orwell link Ian, I’ll read that tomorrow.

    I’ve been doing a bit of thinking about what I said to Clootie, last night.

    I suggested that I considered Judaism as a culture rather than an ethnicity but that culture is the expression of ethnicity, which is confusing.

    I think I tripped myself up by wrongly defining Judaism as a culture rather than a religion.

    Would I be more correct in suggesting Judaism is a religion which consists of many different Jewish cultures? Things begin to make more sense if I’m correct.

  253. yesindyref2 says:

    @Capella, @Thepnr
    You’re good, I only noticed that when I re-read it. Yes, no Government can actually hold a future Government to anything that even seems like a promise, and indeed after this Thursday it will legally and adminstratively be a new Government, with even a new First Minister. As it says on the main page:

    We have entered the pre-election period and this website, while maintaining access to its existing content, will not be routinely updated or added to until after the Scottish Parliament election on 5 May and the appointment of a new administration.

    “a new administration”.

    And I don’t remember the SNP as a political party, every “promising” such a thing.

    In any case we are the People and it’s up to that 5,373,000 of us (as at mid-2015, an increase on 2014 which was an increase on 2013), not just to any political party – or even Government.

  254. george wood says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    You’re not getting it are you.

    Maybe a real-life example might clue you in.

    My work colleague was a cast iron No voter. It took me 18 months to convince him to vote Yes.

    He told me towards the end that if either side called another referendum after the first, then he would vote against which ever side called the 2nd referendum.

    He like many voters out there don’t want to see referendum after referendum. The Unionists know this, they will pay on this and it will be harder to counter with every referendum.

    But never mind you keep trucking along in your little bubble while the world passes you by.

  255. K1 says:

    Aye Thpnr, even the clunking fist begged him on the morning of the 19th not to do it.

    How could any self respecting No voter have watched that smug bastard on the morning of the 19th and not felt burning shame at having been so taken in by those Tory snakes. Fucking shameful.

  256. yesindyref2 says:

    Instead of all this trolling around, trying to nip at mithril-shod ankles, or crush lefties, why not try to make the conservative case for Independence? a la Wealthy Nation Institute?

    Now that WOULD be useful, and interesting. As long as it’s genuine of course.

    Gwan gwan, you know you want to.

  257. Ian Brotherhood says:


    Well said there.

    It should be noted that Clegg dutifully played his part in the Daily Politics stage-set hatchet-job on Ken Livingstone, thereby exposing himself as a useful slug paid to smear on order.

  258. call me dave says:

    Labour MP Marie Rimmer on trial over ‘referendum assault’

  259. K1 says:

    It’s been delayed till July call me dave. Ruby put links further up thread. 😉

  260. dakk says:

    ‘call me dave says:
    30 April, 2016 at 12:59 am
    As the SNP surge, have Glasgow City Council’s ‘Labour Lads’ already chucked it for 2017’

    The lying dying refrain which I am hearing from the upper and lower echelons of the Glasgow Labour Mafia are that the SNP want to take control of Schools from Councils and abolish Faith schools.

    Divide and and rule is their last hurrah.

  261. DerekM says:

    Spot on Cameron just like christianity or islam throw in buddism,hinduism and all the rest while im at it,they are made up from different sections of a religious belief a text or scripture if you will where the interpretation has been made differently creating a religous establishment where that version is passed on and jews are no different.

    So like every race religion country nation they have their head bangers as well just unfortunatly like the UK they have let them run it.

  262. yesindyref2 says:

    Apologies to call me dave for stealing his thunder but the Herald has now decayed into its last 6 days of election campaigning on behalf of the anti-SNP parties, including no doubt the Sunday Herald tomorrow, in its last desperate throes, attempting to turn an overall SNP majority strong for Scotland AND Independence and Indy Ref 2, into a minority one.

    This time dragging in Amnesty International “after it emerged” in the words of the Herald, that CRG were involved in 2011, 5 years ago, with an event that Amnesty International reported in 2012 and 2013 – 4 and 3 years ago.

    “after it emerged”. Must be Rip Van Winkle been given the job of News Editor.

  263. george wood says:

    @grouse beater

    Certainly it would motivate people as you say.

    However, going into the referendum saying, if we don’t win this one then we will hold another and then another until we win, would not have gone down very well with the public.

  264. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thanks for that. I think I now have all the ammunition needed to totally destroy the Yoon slur of us being ethnic nationalist. I’d write an essay for the Rev.’s approval but I wouldn’t want to torture him with my grammer and spelling. 😉

  265. Cadogan Enright says:

    @dakk 1.38

    Don’t underestimate the vote power of faith schools.

    I campaigned with the Greens in the 07 or 08 election and there was a vote meltdown with only 2 seats left after some ‘radical’ twits snuck through an anti faith school policy.

    Logically Greens should support diversity, and not an unthinking ‘lefty one size fits all policy like it or else’

    Religious people often vote Green – but that silliness lost the Greens a chunk of its vote

    As far as I know the SNP have not fallen into that trap so should be safe from Glasgow Labour Councillors so long as the message gets out

  266. NeoconNat says:

    In Paris, in the early 18th Century, there was a district informally named the ‘Cour Des Miracles’ (in English, The Court of Miracles). Anyone who knows anything about the Court of Miracles knows that miracles can happen.

    I think we could have similar miracles here in Scotland, if we achieved independence. In a sense the whole of Scotland could be a Court of Miracles.

    Before we get there, though, we need to convince more people that independence is the way forward. To do that we need to convince the political centre. If we learned anything in 2014, it’s that there are limits to what the left is able to deliver in terms of independence and votes.

    Blair had a similar problem when he took over the Labour Party. His analysis was spot on: in order to become electable and trustworthy in the eyes of voters, he had to convince them that he wouldn’t destroy their lives with high taxes and irresponsible spending. Whatever you think of Blair and his policies, he succeeded in electoral terms.

    There are two ways for the SNP and the independence movement to win over the political centre. One obvious way would be to mimic Blair’s Labour and move to the right; but that would probably come at a cost. I think we need to be smarter than that and be careful not to do anything that could be construed as a blatant attack on the left.

    And, so, that leaves the second way. Rather than move to the right, we move towards an apolitical position. This would need to be done convincingly. An apolitical approach would appeal to the centre ground, and those to the right, because in a sense it is more or less true that there is not a plausible alternative to capitalism and the free market — that in itself is a neutral and apolitical viewpoint.

    There are a lot of wealthy people in Scotland and like any other country it has its own business class. Independence has the potential to be a very useful and promising development for those people (just as it holds promise for less wealthy sorts). Right now their interests are more or less served and secured within the UK but it wouldn’t take much to convince them that their interests might be better served if the levers of power were closer to home.

  267. yesindyref2 says:

    “Cour Des Miracles”

    Possibly one of your silliest trolls, comparing Scotland to an ancient district of prostitutes and thieves. You ain’t the brightest meathook on the block.

  268. NeoconNat says:

    yesindyref2, my emphasis was on the miracles not the place or the people as such. You have a dark and cynical mind…

    Anyway, I think it would be good to get people back to work and acting normal again. That’s the point. The system we have right now, much like the system in early 18th century Paris, encourages people to feign sickness and injury; they get rewarded for doing that with alms.

    If we had a real economy that was more rewarding… etc., etc.

  269. Sandy says:

    Derek M :-
    Punctuation, please. (Also, ‘has gone’, not ‘has went’.)

  270. CameronB Brodie says:

    I was genuinely knocking my own idiosyncrasies, mate.

    I wouldn’t want to be accused of seeking to lower standards but I’ve always believed the saying “you can’t judge a book by it’s cover”. I would say that though. 😉

  271. yesindyref2 says:

    @NeoconNat “You have a dark and cynical mind”

    Thanks 🙂

  272. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sandy, sorry. Genuine typo.

  273. yesindyref2 says:

    The thing is that it doesn’t look like Derek M ever said “has went” in this thread so that comment of yours your only one in this thread is a bit strange but even if he had it’s very common in the West of Scotland so if he did use it he’s using dialect which is a part of a living breathing language and in fact directly responsible in its multiplicity and variegation of expression for the formation of all language apart from the very few that set rules and stick to them and therefore helps to evolve the language of English into the muli-faceted and varied language we share with a lot of people across the world including even those to whom it’s not actually their native language so that takes care of that one I think.

    As for punctuation ….

  274. CameronB Brodie says:

    Just thank your lucky stars. 🙂

    World’s Most Complicated Writing System

  275. yesindyref2 says:


    I’m off to my bed. I might have nightmares.

  276. Sandy says:

    CameronB Brodie:

    Ok, point taken. However, with local dialects, that ‘odd’ word is usually replaced with a word akin to that area. Incidentally, another saying that gets on my goat is, ‘He was sat’. Surely you will agree that the word should be ‘sitting’ or ‘seated’, something to do with the past participle. Ach, maybe I’m getting cynical as I get older. Let’s not dwell on that, tho’.
    Derek M posts some very in depth contributions which, hopefully, many of the ‘Doubting Thomases’ (have I spelled/spelt that correctly?) will take heed of. But, oh, punctuation. I have to read & re-read.
    Derek, by almost your own admission, it is one of your idiosyncrasies. Please keep these posts coming but take a little time before you press the send button. Keep active outwith WOS also. That goes for the adressees too. I am proud to say that I HAVE NEVER VOTED FOR AN ENGLISH PARTY IN MY LIFE & I have voted every time the opportunity arose.
    FREEDOM BECKONS. (Got the t-shirt).

  277. Grouse Beater says:

    George Wood: “Going into the referendum saying, if we don’t win this one then we will hold another and then another until we win, would not have gone down very well with the public.”

    Nobody said that. You’re making up crap. I suspected you’d come back with some sort of contrary drivel, and you have. Go and do a day’s work, it’ll be healthier than pretending you have a political opinion.

  278. Breeks says:

    I might have had some sympathy for avoiding endless referenda, but that was before the disgraceful conduct of the Unionist media which hijacked the agenda and denied Scots the opportunity to weigh up the pros and cons of Independence on their actual merits and relevance. The 2014 referendum was all but saboutaged by ceaseless misinformation, distortion of the truth, and cynical manipulation of the agenda by the Unionists and their virtual monopoly on broadcast media.
    Under such circumstances, I personally feel entirely justified in setting aside the referendum result as an outcome with compromised legitimacy.
    Furthermore, I am quite happy to forewarn the media that similar conduct in future referendum campaigns will provide due cause to void the results and prompt yet another referendum.

    Far from settling the issue, distorting the narrative and obstructing legitimate debate will only serve the short term interests of the Unionists, but will anger enough moderates who feel cheated out of their proper debate to make sure a true and uncorrupted referendum will quickly find its way onto the priority list and rattling up the agenda.
    If you cheat, then you risk voiding the result. Take note BBC.

  279. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood: “Please request advice from someone like NeoconNat on how to do it properly. Otherwise, scarper.”


    I notice as soon as there’s an election or Referendum a brace of dumbass Unionist trolls descend on Wings to disrupt topics in a futile gesture of political war.

    It’s a mystery to me why the forces of anti-democracy send their stupidest recruits to an experienced debating site.

  280. Tam Jardine says:


    Good post. I would have been more ready to accept the result and move on had the people not been subjected to a constant propaganda war and the interference of Westminster and their friends around the world.

    How can anyone respect a result that breaches the UN charter on self determination so profoundly? Void.

    My reading of the UN charter does not suggest that the foreign office (of the state we were trying to leave) could lobby heads of state and EU personal to attack the proposition. Maybe I missed that bit.

  281. Tackety Beets says:

    Breeks @ 7.38 am

    Exactly Breeks

    I knew few unsure folk …. “I would vote for iScotland if I thought we really could afford it ” types but certainly on FB & in general out in streets it felt a very high percentage YES.

    As you imply it certainly felt like the NAW won by mass misinformation being imparted from 99% of the MSM

    As for BBC , Prof John Robertson and GA Posonby both have volumes of evidence.

  282. Cactus says:

    If wee wullie gets voted out on Thursday, I reckon he could fill in for Seán B from the television. His weather report would be four minutes of fun too!

    “..that’s your sport, back to John in the studio.”
    “Thank you Raman, now it’s over to wee wullie with the weather.”

    “Eh hello there..”

  283. Tackety Beets says:

    Nae Rubens e day ?

  284. call me dave says:

    Brian Wilson: Still fighting the one-party state.

    He’s bidding good-bye with a graceless poisoned piece. 🙂

    Anybody know the furthest away guy in the photo I can’t place him?

    PS: Radio shortbread.

    GMS off to a slow start this morning, but a promise to get to the GE news soon… discussing ‘income tax’ coming up soon.

  285. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    “entirely justified in setting aside the referendum result as an outcome with compromised legitimacy.”


    … and the Yoons just made a mockery of the concept of Purdah. Within the final two weeks the meaning of NO completely changed from ‘status quo’ to ‘DevoSuperHomePlusRule’.

  286. call me dave says:

    Can’t find much on Archie Birt.

    But I seem to remember him on the tv away back then.

    Brian Wilson, soon to be MP for North Ayrshire, and Archie Birt as Secretary, was an officer of the Labour “Vote No” campaign on devolution.

    China syndrome again on GMS about the Herald story.

    Ironic it’s about forced clearance of 300 families to allow mining to proceed. (breach of human rights)

    Nothing ever happened to we Scots a while back in the not too distance past. (Two wrongs don’t make a right though)

    Anyhoo! A deal not done but fuel to the fire for the election campaign.

  287. Orri says:

    You don’t have to set aside or refuse to acknowledge the referendum result to hold another. The only thing binding about it was that it asked us to choose between remaining in a union or not.

    Cameron is a master of allowing others to make statements he doesn’t have to abide by. The whole “once in a generation” was never put to me or the rest of the electorate. As Cameron was so in to the simple YES/NO question there’s no way it could be.

    One thing I do remember was a constant theme that No meant change. Absurdly they went for a claim at a faster pace than outright independence. There was never any mention of what would happen should we not like the change. To use a tired analogy it’s like a couple where one partner is set on separation but persuaded to go for counciling or, more accurately, decides to see if the other will change. The threat is still there. The whole stooshie over the Vow certainly allows that interpretation

  288. Breeks says:

    And just a add:

    It’s not just the conduct of the media which should be in the dock. I am at a loss to explain what function and purpose the Electoral Commission is meant to serve when such flagrant and widespread abuse was allowed to impact on an electoral process, and foreverafter remain unchallenged.

    I sincerely hope the SNP has a serious word with itself before signing any future Edinburgh type Agreement which affords any similar status for the manifestly dysfunctional Electoral Commission as last agreement did, with particular relevance to its roll in the regulation of broadcasting.

    Next time the electorate expresses disquiet and calls out for foreign observers to oversee the electoral process, the SNP better bloody listen.

  289. Almannysbunnet says:

    Breeks says:
    7:38 am
    If you cheat, then you risk voiding the result.

    Great post! The thing is people knew they were cheated. How else do you account for over 100,000 disconnected people, unbidden, who felt compelled to join the SNP after September? People who felt the need to do something, to show their support and encouragement to keep on fighting. How come less than 8 months later the “winners” were all but expunged from Scotland when the better together politicians were resoundingly voted into oblivion.
    From the no side, how come the constant need to remind us that they “won”, tell us to get over it, it was a once in a generation thing, etc. The know they loaded the dice, we saw the dice being loaded.
    The BBC were exposed yet still take us for fools. They just need to look at how distrusted they have become. They are held in contempt.
    The game is far from over and they know it.
    SNP x 2

  290. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Tackety beets, Cairns, the slacker, is currently returning from his highland estate and the ‘toon will be a day late.
    (from Stu’s twitter feed)

  291. Gary45% says:

    Breeks, Well said.
    Just going out leafleting.

  292. Andrew Mclean says:

    GMS & the Herald,

    In England, The Queen as state banquet for Chinese President, all the great an good in attendance, Chinese build biggest engineering project in Europe in London employing 10,000 workers cost over £ 14 billion, China investment in Hinckley point £10 billion, now involved in two others including Bradwell, which will be Chinese design and build. Cost £ 30 billion. And other investments in London that will soon total £100 billion. Hurray!

    And now for viewers in Scotland!
    China bad, Chinese EVEL SNP Bad, SNP Natz bad Chinese, SNP + CHINA = EVEL
    Get back in your box you bloody stupid jocks! This is the voice of the BBC the most respected broadcasting company on earth, listen to your masters, the media is all knowing, all powerful, God bless The United Kingdom the best most brilliant country on earth! Look how the world comes to our door, don’t you know London is the capital city of the whole world (yes they really did say that)!

  293. Socrates MacSporran says:

    As ever, the basic starting point for this thread: those final four minutes of QT, has become the first step in a journey which has taken us down some interesting side roads.

    To bring us back to where we began, I have to wonder about the intelligence of the strategists at Conservative and Lib-Dem Central Offices.

    They knew Wee Eck was on the panel, did nobody watch the midweek edition of Daily Politics in which the very young Alex Salmond was seen going head-to-head with Denis Healey and winning?

    Did nobody then think: “Hold on, that was him as a young man, he’s a lot-more experienced now; maybe we should put a heavyweight in against him”?

    Did nobody see how he had silenced Ken Clark on that Daily Politics show and think: “We had better put-up a big gun against him”.

    I have long thought, there are a lot of dumbos in the Tory ranks, does their sense of entitlement, bolstered by generations of exposure to establishment ways, blind them to the fact – at least in Scotland, their days are past?

    But, in England, if they mount some sort of defence, they will get away with it for a wee while yet. They boobed, by sending little boys to take-on a big man on Thursday night.

  294. 24 killed in truck bomb explosion near Iraq’s Baghdad,

    Documented civilian deaths from violence
    157,090 – 175,790
    Total violent deaths including combatants

    Robin Cook resigned from Government,

    Brian Wilson,George Foulkes,Douglas Alexander,Jim Murphy,happily followed Blair,Brown and Darling in the illegal war that destroyed a country and led to hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths,

    these monsters should be brought to trial at the Hague and suffer the consequences.

  295. DerekM says:

    @ Sandy

    Sorry Sandy my scribblings go all to pot when i have been having a few brandies and this stupid new version of maxthon doesnt have a spell checker yet its still in beta testing lol

    I usually duck when that debate is going around Cameron i find it all so hard to comprehend ,its not that i dont understand it i just dont get how people can be shitty to someones else just because some spanner who thinks he`s gods right hand man says so.

    Sometimes i think we never got out the dark ages its there always trying to pull us backwards.

  296. Capella says:

    Another minute of fun. I don’t watch sport but this snooker shot is good!

  297. galamcennalath says:

    An excellent article in the Times (now there’s a surprise)

    “Boring election? It’s a quiet revolution on the road to independence
    The expected SNP landslide is not about the Sturgeon factor, it’s about righteous anger”

    This very much captures the reality of what is going on in Scotland. Not the usual guff.

  298. FairFerfochen says:

    Not a big fan of the Donald but I have to congratulate him and his staff at Menie in Aberdeenshire.

    I flew over there last night on my way back from the rigs and it fair gladdened my heart to see one of the “biggest Saltires in the world” flying almost perfectly in the due south easterly wind.

    I jest you not it must be the size of a 4 bedroomed house.


  299. Andrew Mclean says:

    The problem with the arguments over whether it was the referendum to end all referendums, or once in a generation or a decade, or even once in a blue moon, is that the whole reason behind this is the question what are we to do with Scotland?

    This question has perplexed the Westminster political establishment ever since the Hamilton by election win for Winnie Ewing made for a continuing SNP attendance in Westminster, the plan to answer the Scottish question was supposed to be the Scottish assembly, controlled by the executive. Labour sold this as the “Settled will of the Scottish People” clearly it wasn’t, at best it was a learning curve, the Scottish will, spurred on resulted in a Scottish Parliament, a Scottish government, and good competent governments from the SNP.

    It is astounding that the government party in Scotland in power from 2007, with over 400 councillors, all but 3 MP,s are Scottish nationalist, an approval rating of nearly 60%, a leader who has the biggest approval rating in all the nations of the U.K. A party membership of over 116,000. Is subject to the type of rabid propaganda and hysterically ranting, only now observed in totalitarian states like North Korea!

    The settled will of the Scottish people, was not for sale by those who sold their birthright for a seat in Westminster, it was not for sale for a parliamentary half way house in Edinburgh, it is not for sale by some cheap intimidating scum press, it is not for sale, not in the past, not now, not ever.

    I support the SNP, am a party member of the SNP, but I am first and foremost Scottish. In other words I have an unsettled will. And will be as long as the SNP is the vehicle that drives the country towards independence, And I can’t see that changing!

    Soar Alba.

  300. Nana says:

    Having to go out right now, posted another 4 links to good articles, check back later to see if they appear.

    Not sure why they have not appeared, one contained a film about isis and oil called In the name of the profit so maybe that is why.

  301. Big Jock says:

    The Yoons on Shareen have decided the SNP won’t get a majority. There is wishful thinking and then delusion. Let’s make sure we take every constituency seat folks. I include Orkney and the Borders.

    That dreadful accented Siobhan Simmet saying she is disengaged from Scottish politics and wont watch the election. That is code for I am in the huff because I am posh unionist and voted no thinking it would kill the yes movement. Same woman who said the SNP didn’t have a clue about devolving broadcasting as that would be s disaster. She is just a ferkin ill informed waste of space. Always bleating about the media but happy to leave London in charge.

  302. NeoconNat says:

    Andrew, you’ve possibly stumbled on something important there.

    One of the big strategic decisions the SNP took in the pursuit of independence was to avoid any overt expressions of blood and soil nationalism. They instead decided to flirt with the left.

    Looking at the sort of stuff you just typed which, let’s be honest, crops up a lot on here, I wonder if that was the right decision.

    Instead of blowing kisses and winking at the left, the SNP might consider more of a flag-oriented approach. Dump the left.

    Combine that with a shift towards the political and economic centre ground and I think you potentially have 70% of the country with you.

    Politics is like one of those combination locks. You need to know what numbers to dial in and get them in the right order. I think we are close.

  303. Derek Cameron says:

    A simmet is a useful thing.

  304. NeoconNat says:

    The Shareen Show is the sort of outcome you’d expect if you got a bunch of prefects to manage a radio station at a school for toffs.

    If the studio they were in was air tight and slowly filling with water, it’s possible that you’d get something resembling entertainment out of them. Who knows, you might even reach the heady heights of a human interest piece.

  305. Ruby says:

    Bill Hume says:
    29 April, 2016 at 10:38 pm

    otherdemons says:
    29 April, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    “I don’t get a vote in the EU referendum, as I only hold a EU passport not a British one.”

    I had not realised that only British citizens could vote on this. I assumed that all legal residents of the UK could vote.

    In the next Scottish referendum, should not the same rule apply…..i.e. only Scots should be allowed to vote??

    Ruby replies

    I think allowing EU citizens residents in Scotland to vote is the correct thing to do. The fact that Westminster are not allowing EU citizens a vote is very telling.

    The problem during the IndyRef was that we were not given proper information re the EU due to Westminster refusing to approach the EC for a definitive answer. Scaremongering re the EU was a very important part of ‘Better Together’s’ argument and I would imagine this would have had an impact on how EU residents voted.

    Having voted No to Scottish Independence to ensure they can continue to live/work/study here they are faced with the possibility of being forced to leave but this time they have no vote.

  306. stonefree says:

    I was going to bore the living daylights out of you re Wilson
    and his supposed view of Saltcoats
    But he’s is simply the Arsehole he always was,
    Standing next to Old Etonian Tam Dalyell (a Tory in all but name)
    The Labour leaflets around NA does contain have more inaccuracies that the Katy Clark ones, Baxter is a parachuted from London area and according to someone who went to school with her definitely not the sharpest ,Full qualification for the Scottish branch of the Labour party

  307. heedtracker says:

    The part of my post you didn’t address explains why they had to say it. The prospect of a neverendum situation was a big vote loser and the Unionists played on that to make the Yes campaign make the promise. This would useful to the Uionists if they won and a referendum was mooted after.

    george wood says:
    30 April, 2016 at 12:40 am

    Why are you dodging what was said by the Scots government 2014?

    Once in a generation opportunity is exactly what it was but now its “thing” is it?

    George whoever you are and whatever you think you are up to, it is the fundamental democratic right for everyone and anyone to campaign for stuff like ref2.

    Red and blue tory yoon culture can shriek away with all that great BBC teamGB bombast and thuggery, “you said once in a generation so shut up now, vote red and blue tory,” but how’s that bully boy stuff working out for you all?

    Holy fudge I hope we get a SNP majority next week because it does actually look like Scotland is just going to have to take the long route to independence, slowly but surely voting out red and blue yoon culture, election by election.

    But you guys all know that because you’re all such clever politicos n shit.

    Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 44m44 minutes ago
    Is Nicola Sturgeon Scotland’s Margaret Thatcher?:

  308. Doug McG says:

    Don’t know if you heard ,Rev but you got a mention from the DT on Shireens Yoonfest.

  309. heedtracker says:

    Ruby replies

    I think allowing EU citizens residents in Scotland to vote is the correct thing to do. The fact that Westminster are not allowing EU citizens a vote is very telling.

    Its impossible to tell how European’s that have moved to Scotland voted 2014 but a lot of them I listened to explained that Scotland as a nation state would change how they did actually move around the EU to work and live and it would create Scottish/EU barriers that dont exist now, they thought. Also, several companies including mine, owned by extremely rich English dudes, told them that they’d pull out of indy Scotland and these people do not want to leave the Scotland they’ve immigrated to. They like it.

    So in fact, its very weird that pro EU Cameron and co have stopped EU nationals voting.

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    Brian Wilson is a curious case. Before he was elected, he had a column in the Record and it was a good one. He was accused by some in this constituency of being a publicity seeker, but then aren’t all politicians? And his causes were good ones.

    I voted for him, not just to get rid of the useless Thatcher licking John Corrie who instead of bothering with his constituency, sent up a private member’s bill about hanging, and then one about abortion, the customary open vote to air a UK issue, but not the kind of use best suited for constituents.

    Brian Wilson on the other hand fought up for the local pie shop (used to be back door or bakery) to stay open late, and when an MP did good jobs for families of deceased victims of silicosis and asbestosi, quite a few in Cunninghame North. He also pushesd electrification of the Kilwinning to Largs “branch” line, when that was resisted.

    Then in a surgery I asked for some business advice and got it, basically a reference to the DTI who gave me considerable help and advice as well. He was Minister for it and Business (whatever the title was).

    But along with Labour itself I think, he changed over the years. He always had been a Unionist, the chairman of the Vote NO to Devolution in 1979, but having been an SNP member in the early 70s before joining Labour, became increasingly rabidly anti-SNP and anti-Independence.

    It’s a shame, like Labour itself, he let hatred for the SNP spoil all the good things he did as a politician.

    If Labour ever wanted to recover they could use him as a study, and shining example of what used to be right with labour, and what went wrong with it.

  311. Phydaux says:

    Alex Salmond did the decent and right thing when he resigned as FM.Although heartbreaking at the time, we knew he’d be back.He has since thrived, as we all have, as we continue on our journey.

    I was once bitten by a clegg ( large horseflies that annoy livestock )… very nasty and painful…a bit like the FibDems.The verb to clegg is to betray everything you once stood for.The FibDems took the momentous step in helping to re-unite all Unionist Parties into Thatcherism.Mr Clegg’s unpopularity earned him the nickname of Calamity Clegg.

    Willie Rennie’s smiley happy clappy sugar-coated hate is as deluded as it is insulting in our burgeoning enlightenment.

    There are those who say they will never believe in an independent Scotland.They have an idealised version of England’s colonial past.A version in which shocking cruelty, suffering and conflict are edited out.As a piece of self-deception, it seems to work for them, in a collective insecurity kind of way.Let’s hope their perspective changes and develops as we continue on our journey.We won’t hold our breath plus they are in the minority.

    There are those who are still fearful and unsure of what an independent Scotland would look like.They are more open to a change in perspective as the tide turns and the SNP sets out to allay those fears.

    Sadly there are those who seem to have a passion for ignorance and a wilful lack of curiosity about what is going on around them.It is difficult to guage how far to push them towards the light since they seem so distrustful of any help or support.

    Our young people, especially teenagers, are so interested in themselves and one another.There are so many things that they really want to learn about.Giving them the right to vote gave them the opportunity to explore the ideas of those who have thought in different and more profound ways and about how to live in this world of ours in a way that connects with the passions and preoccupations inside their heads.Most of them believe in an independent Scotland, the future of which belongs to them.

    SNP X 2

  312. carjamtic says:

    ‘Knock Knock’

    ‘Who’s there’


    ‘What ‘kind’ of Democracy ?………if your Scottish go away,we only want UKOK Democracy’


  313. HandandShrimp says:

    There is a lot going on in politics at the moment. The Tories are all over the place on health, the EU and child refugees. Labour are in turmoil, much of it looking like an internal power struggle.

    The Herald’s decision to attempt some sort of SNPBad by association by association* smells of rank desperation. A last ditch attempt to try and loosen a percentage point or two.

    *The SNP MOU includes CERG4 which is owned by CRG which owns another company that has done work for another country where that country’s government has treated villagers in manner similar to the British Government’s treatment of the Chagos Islanders.

    I doubt I will buy another Herald ever again.

  314. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Our young people, especially teenagers, are so interested in themselves and one another.There are so many things that they really want to learn about.Giving them the right to vote gave them the opportunity to explore the ideas of those who have thought in different and more profound ways and about how to live in this world of ours in a way that connects with the passions and preoccupations inside their heads.Most of them believe in an independent Scotland, the future of which belongs to them.”

    Yes, Phydaux, and they never buy a newspaper, so are immune to the MSM virus. The young are our best hope for independence, as time takes its toll on the older generations.

    Once we are independent, it will magically be very difficult to find anyone who voted No, apart from the Obay Ur Quene types who, after some initial frothing, will probably just emigrate and fly their wee flag to their hearts’ content somewhere else.

    But for just now, it’s frustrating living in the final years of the Last Colony, particularly for an oldster listening out for Time’s wingèd chariot.

  315. Foonurt says:

    Ansurrz fae yurr BBC. Mair chance ah yoan bawheid bird- committees, tellin ye yae did see ah bird yae seen wae yurr ane twaw een, bit thae didnae. Sah, ye didnae.

    Ho fuckin hum. Mair poourr tae yoan Scoats.

  316. Grouse Beater says:

    One hell of a film:

  317. Robert Graham says:

    This once in a bleedn whatever piss , OK hands up we lied , just playing by Unionist Rules you see old chap . Now feck off and f/k up someone else’s country , oh you have run out of recipients to shower your love and attention on its a pity you lost your empire how sad get over it .

  318. Fred says:

    Shocking stuff on Dunblane, Robertson & Blair,

    As for Brian Wilson, fails to mention Labour’s part in the financial collapse, illegal foreign wars & gross mismanagement of public finances. Whit PFI?

    Bitter & Twisted, Mrs Mac from Take the High Road personified.

  319. Meindevon says:

    Sorry folks, ahm really, really bored with NCN and (sorry!) all the replies. He seems to be taking over Stu’s blog. Maybe deliberately? I’m skipping all of them now.

    Isn’t the Rev’s rule to ignore them anyway?

  320. Robert Kerr says:


    I have developed the technique of reading the poster’s name first and skipping all the NCN crap.

    The second line of defence against insanity is to skip ALL the replies.

    Except the one-liners.


  321. Macart says:


    RE: Times article

    Surprising. A bubble journo with enough intestinal fortitude to actually go ask the source why things are happening? Wonders will never cease. 😀

    You’re right though. A pretty balanced piece which gets the message across. This is no movement of personality and its driven by a far deeper and more widespread need than short termist policy change. This is about a need to change the system from top to bottom. To practice our politics differently, to put the service back into public service and burn out as much of the harmful and hateful adversarial system we’ve lived with for decades, as is humanly possible.

    In short its about empowering the people by returning all power to the people as far as I’m concerned. We’ve lived with the results of leaving all power in the hands of the few. It results in helpless misery for the many and promotes a system of politics which at best resembles a closed shop form of gangsterism. A patronage system which reduces the population to electoral coinage, collateral damage or outright refuse to be used or discarded as political strategies deem expedient.

    The political class of all stripes would argue ‘that’s the big bad world or real politics for you’. Personally, I would say ‘no, that’s naked greed and survival of the fittest. That’s me myself and I. That’s the politics of self not service.’ In our current system there is no centre ground. There is only haves and an increasing number of have nots and the haves hold the keys to the decision making process.

    Human nature is human nature and there will always be those more fortunate. That’s a good thing I reckon. We all aspire to better and its good to see, materially, what we can aspire to. What we need to be able to achieve in equal measure is care in our politics and our communities. That we all are invested in and hold an investment in each other, our politics/government, and our futures. We need to want the best for each other as well as ourselves. All forward together as it were.

    Not an unachieveable fairy utopia which doesn’t exist and never will, but an expectation of our public servants to return a duty of care and service based on the ultimate power of sovereignty residing in the hands of the population, the many. It simply gives everyone a stake in the future of their country and its governance. That we all have a reason to make it the best wee country in the world we possibly can. The examples of smaller nations making a better fist of it are plentiful. I simply have confidence that there is no reason on earth why we can’t do similar. We have the resources. We have the talent. What we require is the confidence and the will.

  322. DerekM says:

    Och Robert Graham were you getting dizzy watching all those silly yoons running about in circles whining and gurning about but you said boohoo no fair.

    It will be on reporting yoon land the night evil nats admit telling lies about once in a generation,wee ruthie will be on her buffalo or whatever else comes handy for her to mount screaching SNP bad no referendum no surrender im not a tory honest gov.

    Then it will be all the red tory yoons lining up with their SNP bad line and finally wee wilber will pop up and make us all laugh.

    So much the same as usual then lol

  323. Fred says:

    Anent the Channel Islands, they were part of Brittany until siezed by the Normans in the 10th century.

  324. Robert Kerr says:


    That means they really are British, just not Great British.

    Who cares really.


  325. jcd says:

    galamcenallath 10.21

    Wow, from the Times??? wtf. It’s like they’re, well……conceding, and I don’t mean just the Holyrood election.

  326. yesindyref2 says:

    Looks like (and I hope) that Mike Wade has got it.

    But the Times is no surprise, it does the Unionist bit at times but then it gets sick of that for a game of soldiers and does some real journalism for a change. One of few these days. During the Ref I used to quote its articles at times, along with LSE and Uni of Manchester. FT also.

  327. jcd says:


    I don’t think I’ve ever actually read the Times (before that article) all I know about it is that it’s part of Murdoch’s media empire, hence my quelle surprise.

    I know that the Sun sometimes flirts with indy but that’s insincere and is only to placate a large section of their Scottish readership. Murdoch isn’t thick in the way that many yoons are.

    However that Times article really is something.

  328. CameronB Brodie says:

    Finally, the legal profession stand up to institutional Zionism within the British Establishment.

    The panel was also “troubled by the implications of the claim. Underlying it we sense a worrying disregard for pluralism, tolerance and freedom of expression” (para 179). This is clearly a reference to (among others) Jeremy Newmark, a witness for Fraser, and the head of the Jewish Leadership Council.

    He once said the union was “no longer a fit arena for free speech” – this is described by the judge as “extraordinarily arrogant but also disturbing.”

    The judge also found that parts of Newmark’s evidence before the tribunal were “preposterous” and “untrue.” Testimony by Jane Ashworth, of the anti-boycott group Engage, was also found to be false.

    Two members of parliament who appeared as witnesses for Fraser were also criticized. John Mann MP and Denis MacShane MP “clearly enjoyed making speeches. [But] neither seems at ease with the idea of being required to answer a question not to his liking” (para. 148).

  329. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ British Establishment Zionists

    “Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray for it to the Almighty, for through its welfare will you have welfare.” – Jeremiah,

  330. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ John Mann
    Have socialist not figured out that Zionism panders to antisemitism and Fascism? Does that matter to socialists?

  331. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    @Rock says: 29 April, 2016 at 7:25 pm:

    ” … Do you have any objection to Gordon Brown calling Scotland “North Britain”?”

    “As Brown was my MP throughout his entire political career I object to everything about the man and I always have.”

    You are evading the question for the umpteenth time.

    I will keep on asking whenever you flog your “Britishness” on this blog.

    Nothing personal against you.

  332. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @SC (2.39) –

    Thanks for the heads-up about Allan Grogan. Important stuff, at least for some of us.

  333. George Wood says:


    You said

    “Why are you dodging what was said by the Scots government 2014?

    Once in a generation opportunity is exactly what it was but now its “thing” is it?

    George whoever you are and whatever you think you are up to, it is the fundamental democratic right for everyone and anyone to campaign for stuff like ref2.”

    The reason I said “thing” rather than opportunity is because the Unionist press and Better Together 2 or whatever they will call themselves won’t look past the word generation. Opportunity won’t appear in the headlines and we will be force fed the once in a generation comment so we better have an answer to it. It’s hard to hide it when it’s in the Scotland’s Future document.

    I never at any point said there shouldn’t be another referendum. Why would I when I’ve voted for the SNP in every election for 38 years and I’ve been a supporter of Independence for 40 years.

    I said people don’t like the idea of a neverendum situation, but I didn’t say we shouldn’t have another referendum.

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