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Wings Over Scotland

Fight and you may die

Posted on December 26, 2017 by

Scotland’s favourite Scottish movie is still Braveheart, folks.

But the devil, as always, is in the detail.

We asked Twitter users to name their favourite “Scottish” films – we didn’t specify what we meant by the term, leaving interpretation as open as possible – and put the 20 most popular answers into our latest Panelbase poll to see which ones the general public loved the most. And to be honest it wasn’t even close.

Mel Gibson’s historically-questionable but multi-Oscar-winning tale of the life and death of William Wallace edged out Trainspotting fairly comfortably in the end, with the light-hearted 1949 heist comedy Whisky Galore the only other contender to really separate itself from the chasing pack.

Braveheart’s fans were more likely to be Yes voters (unsurprisingly), women (perhaps more surprisingly), working-class and SNP or Labour voters, with the middle classes preferring Trainspotting and Tory/Lib Dem voters opting for Whisky Galore.

(Unexpectedly, the biggest divide between Yes and No voters wasn’t actually over Braveheart – it was still No voters’ second favourite – but Billy Connolly’s repressed royal romance Mrs Brown, which had nearly four times as many Unionist fans as nationalist ones, compared to the 2:1 ratio on Gibson’s 14th-century gorefest.)

We perhaps shouldn’t be all that shocked that Unionists prefer to see Scotland depicted as a country of squalid, backstabbing, violent and essentially useless heroin addicts than as a proud nation struggling for its freedom from a brutal oppressive invader, but at least now we can put some solid numbers to it.

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  1. 26 12 17 11:56

    Fight and you may die | speymouth

  2. 12 09 18 10:20

    Brave Hearts and Brave Minds | A Wilderness of Peace

207 to “Fight and you may die”

  1. defo says:

    Nice one Stu.
    Not much of the promised “comedy” recently. Understandably.

  2. MajorBloodnok says:

    Glad to see my first recommendation Whisky Galore! there with 9%.

    However, for some reason my second film choice Buckfast at Tiffany’s didn’t make the final cut.

  3. mogabee says:


    Of course! It’s boxing day… 😀

    Are women liking Braveheart because of all the passion perhaps. Have we got too soft and need some bodice-ripping to get the juices flowing?

    Well yes, of course…!

  4. Bruce L says:

    Almost completely irrelevant, but my choice would’ve been “Under The Skin”. Snobbish contrarian tendencies ahoy.

  5. Anagach says:

    Its a small haul for the decades of time the films cover.
    I wonder just how badly output in film and TV compares to other countries of a similar size as Scotland.

    Being part of the Union there is little in the way of opportunity for Scottish talent in Film, TV, and arts to actually do anything with or about Scotland.

    Down to London and work on the next BBC drama/serial which is almost always done to a background of cliche shots of London landmarks and character stereotypes as threadbare as they are insulting, not just to Scots, Irish and Welsh but to English people as well.

  6. Bob Mack says:

    Unionists prefer anything that depicts Scotland as ;
    a) Servile
    b) Dependant
    c) Quaintly dim

    Of course we must remember that the Unionists envisage themselves as totally different to the above. They are British first. I was totally flummoxed the other day by Loki aka Darren McGarvey who seems to have developed a Scottish cringe since writing a Unionist funded book and doing a column for the Guardian . A few years ago he was totally different. Bought and sold now I fear.

  7. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    No surprise in Whisky galore being a favourite of the older, more unionist generation, either. TS will always attract controversy due to the subject but admit there is a certain amount of poverty porn in it (and modern day version of the fairy tale to scare your children with, perhaps for the middle class).

    IMHO, what we need is a home grown creative industry producing Scotland from the inside out view (to create balance) rather than the three of the mentioned films above, all of which were produced by external money.

    This point can be made about other industrial sectors, including life sciences, renewables. farming. Until we control more of these sectors in Scotland, we will continue be treated as a backwater. Only indepdendence can give us that leverage and control.

  8. Donald anderson says:

    Braveheart upset the Onionists, not because of any historical Licence, or inaccurate costumes. The author, Randal Wallace maintained that it was composite of Scottish history, from Picts to Jacobites.

    It was the fact that it was made at all that infuriated them. How dare they even mention William Wallace, whom they denied as a historical character and how dare they imply that Scotland for its freedom?

  9. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I much preferred Rob Roy to Braveheard.

    The soundtrack was excellent

  10. Robert Mclaren says:

    Just wait till The Outlaw King comes out … it will be bye bye Braveheart.

  11. Andy Anderson says:

    Looking forward to the new Netflix series about Robert Bruce called the Outlaw King. Being made now.

  12. louis.b.argyll says:

    Aye, and we’ve got plenty more historical inaccuracies to make movies about..

    All sorts of abuses yet to be dramatised.

  13. Lollysmum says:

    SNP club in Edinburgh showed Whisky Galore just before it closed for Christmas. Expecting it to be the black & white 1949 version it was a pleasant surprise to see it was the new version.

    Was very well received by the audience and eb
    need to a huge round of applause. In my view it was better than the original. Catch it if you can.

  14. Lollysmum says:

    *eb = ended

  15. Grouse Beater says:

    My problem with ‘Trainspotting’ is it takes no moral stand on drug abuse. It’s a dark comedy. ‘Tigger jumps’ director who gave us the most cringeworthy opening to the Olympic Games ever, explained he didn’t want to impose ideas on it.

    Comparison between Braveheart and English historical dramas here:

    Braveheart Shmaveheart:

  16. PictAtRandom says:

    Which reminds me that one of the main metropolitan media stories today is about a lot of ‘National’ Archives of the UK papers being, cough, lost by government departments. They include stuff about the Falklands The Troubles and the Zinoviev letter. No mention of Scotland yet…

    (And the other main news is that we’re going to have to say “Sir Nick Clegg.)

  17. Dr Jim says:

    It has to be remembered that while everybody always thought Billy Connolly was a Scottish breath of fresh air as a comedian sectarian Unionists were always lukewarm to him until he announced his support for servility to the Union which then made him a political genius

    The rubbishing of the Braveheart movie is purely and simply fear of Scottish emotion helping to stimulate any interest in Scotland being a normal country
    Every body knows it has nothing whatsoever to do with the tired nonsense about its historical accuracy because if that really was a concern, in truth we’d be from now to doomsday destroying the accuracy of British war films in which the insertion of complete and total drivel was always and is always the norm

    When you stop to think about it Mel Gibson made exactly the same film for the American market called the Partiot in which the Yanks threw out the British after the British committed many of the same crimes against America that they did to Scotland

    Don’t remember Americans making wild and angry protests about historical inaccuracies in that movie, they rather liked it, and I think that’s because they actually like their own country, I have to say I really really love it when the Brits get battered stupid and run away, or as they might prefer it “advanced to the rear”

    The joy

  18. heedtracker says:

    Braveheart works because its a neat dramatisation of today’s mindset, either side of Carlisle. Its always been there, it probably got put aside as the global cancer that was the British Empire enslaved hundreds of millions of people and made some Scots rich as gods. But those days are over now.

  19. Weechid says:

    Restless Natives was my choice but I have a wee collection of Scottish films on DVD, many of which I could have chosen. I thought Sweet Sixteen was a fabulous debut from Martin Compston – although very depressing- as was Filth. I remember catching a wee film on Youtube called One Last Chance a wee gentle comedy about finding a gold nugget. I can’t watch the new Whisky Galore ’cause of Izzard.

  20. Anne Meikle says:

    I’ve been watching ‘Rebellion’ on Netflix over Christmas. About families in Dublin over the Easter Uprising and the conflicts between Irish men who had joined the British Army and friends and relatives who believed in a republic. Together with typical upper class Brits running the colony as it was seen. It was illuminating. They really did die for their cause. I never wish for any violence in our struggle, but what they faced was incredible.

  21. Capella says:

    “Choose life”, the message of TS. Choose Freedom, the message of Braveheart. Glad that Freedom won in the end.

  22. John B says:

    The Panda gets it!
    I,too, was thinking, ” Where the hell is ,’Rob Roy?’ ”
    Much better film than Braveheart, better acting (especially Jessica Lange and Tim Roth), better accents (especially Jessica Lange), great cinematography, great soundtrack, great fight scenes and one of the best movie villains in film history – Tim Roth’s Archibald Cunningham.

    This poll must have been hacked by the Russkies…

  23. Brian Powell says:

    I can see the UnionistBrit/MrsBrown connection. Scots cosily subservient to the epitome of English rule. The strongest, unquestioning servant.

    it can be seen in the God Save the Queen singing, kilt and tweed jacket wearing local at the Highland Games at Balmoral.They feel safe and secure, with someone else directing them.

  24. Calum McKay says:

    Braveheart works because it’s good vs. evil, small vs. big, David vs, Goliath and underdog vs. the powerful.

    The worry for unionists, hence the uk media attack on the film, is that Scots may be spurned to think that they (british colonialists) may not be practising primae noctis, but they certainly don’t miss an opportunity to undermine our collective confidence.

  25. Alan says:

    Hopefully Braveheart won as a comedy rather than history. It’s to Scottish history what Monty Python and the Holy Grail is to English history. FFS.

  26. starlaw says:

    Watched two versions of Victoria, British version and an American version. A world of a difference between them both. I would think the American version would be accurate as they called a spade a spade regarding Treatment shown to Albert by the Aristocracy, they hated him. The Charge of The Light Brigade was also mentioned The stupidity of Lord Cardigan who they described as a ‘buffoon on a fox hunt’ summed it up for me, and the behaviour of the aristocracy has not really changed to this day.

  27. Tackety Beets says:

    So there we have it WG is a favourite with us “Aul Codgers”
    It certainly was entertainment for my generation.

    Braveheart was up there too but I agree with BTP , RobRoy was great. They also made use of many older Scottish words which are seldom used these days. This was a bonus for me.

    Overheard lady asking young lad , 10 or 11.
    What are you getting fur Xmas loon?
    “I’m getting a new fitba tap!…….aye but the Munchester City een”

    My heart sank ……WTF!

    Of course folk like me supporting any team other than the usual 2 Scottish & some well known Engerlish teams cannot walk into any of the national Sport Stores & purchase any local team kit, well that’s how it is north o Perth.

    Maybe TC finds Motherwell kit easier to find ?

    Take it easy folks , enjoy & steady yersel for Hogmanay…… Smiley fing.

  28. David P says:

    According to an official “How to write for the BBC” guide, scripts for Scottish historical dramas were rarely accepted, because they already have scripts in-house. If does beg the question: If they already had the scripts, why did they never make any of them into programmes?

    To use a technical term – this is utter tosh! – because there is more than enough fascinating history within Scotland (and beyond) to create dramas and mini-series that would have the whole of world on the edge of their seats, watching.

    For instance: How the Declaration of Arbroath came to be; The James plays; John Knox and the switch to Protestantism; The Covenanters; The War of the Three Kingdoms; The role of Scots in the development and freedom movements of “the colonies”; The Scottish Enlightenment; Darien; Scotland’s role in “The Empire”; the development of Scotland’s education system; “The Disruption”; The Scottish Church College in Kolkata…

    All of these have the potential to create absolutely riveting storylines, with larger-than-life characters, and displays of heroism, skulduggery, statesmanship, double-crossing and intrigue.

    Unfortunately, for now these programmes will be made by Netflix, HBO et al, as my gut feel is that the BBC wouldn’t touch any single one of these suggestions with a barge-pole, for fear of being “controversial”. Not to mention in breach of their charter, which must promote the unity of the UK

  29. heedtracker says:

    Glad that Freedom won in the end.

    What really stood out in 95 was the extraordinary and furious reaction by the BBC and BBC Scotland to what is just a movie, from angry old buffer tories raging at the inaccuracies of a Hollywood movie, to endless haha comic sketches from beeb Scotland gimps, French and Saunders etc.

    It was a puzzle at the time, why the whole of the beeb gimp network was so agitated by just that one Hollywood movie but its probably less so now:D

  30. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    My favourite is Peter Mullan’s ‘Neds’.

  31. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    ‘Under the Skin’ should be on there.

  32. Scottish Steve says:

    I’m not surprised unionists love Mrs Brown. It’s a film about a servile Scotsman who devotes his life to an English – sorry – “British” queen. I thought it was boring despite me liking Judi Dench as an actress.

    Love me some Braveheart and Trainspotting though. Again, not surprised the middle classes like it. A wee bit of poverty porn for them.

  33. Les Wilson says:

    Hmmm, remembering when braveheart came out, there was a rise of anti English sentiment at the time mostly from younger generations.
    While it was not accurate completely, it did also show some things which were, when Wallace was taken to London for example. What was depicted, did happen to him.
    I think that was the issue that did raise anger.

    We have another coming up via Netflix, ” The Outlaw King” which is all about Robert the Bruce, and according to releases from Netflix it will show some of the bloodiest scenes ever filmed.

    It is big budget and it is filming now, and must be nearing completion. I think this will be banned in the UK much as Outlander was for ages.
    Also think it will drive the Unionists to become more desperate than ever,by distilling a sense of pride into a lot of Scots.

    Well, we all know how it ended don’t we. We triumphed over overwhelming odds, in a day we had some pride left in ourselves.
    The UKOK Media will be slating it long before it appears, as they would, of course. Scottish pride is a big no no, for the corrupt Unionist cause and none can be allowed. However I do not think they will be able to totally contain this one.

  34. Valerie says:

    @ reluctant nationalist

    I liked ‘Neds’ too, by Peter Mullan. It’s an accurate portrayal for lots of us. I love Peter as an actor and a director. A Scot from very humble, difficult circs now on first name terms with Spielberg. My claim to fame – I know his sister!

    Nick Clegg, to be knighted for services to the Tory party. Nice.

    Also, this massive bullshit about key documents, files being ‘lost’.

    How anyone in this country has the nerve to denounce Russia or North Korea is beyond me. The Police state here is just growing exponentially.

  35. galamcennalath says:

    My own favourite is Local Hero. Time passes and I suppose it is starting to look historical. It’s a great tale of how a small rural community functions and relates to the big wide world.

    Exposure of Scottish culture, society, and history in a fictional form is much better than it being ignored altogether!

    So Braveheart, for all it’s failings, did much more good than harm. I would class Outlander similarly with its Highlanders all speaking with Lowland Scots’ accents.

    I was taught Scottish history at school including part of my Ordinary exam. Yet many folks say they were never taught any. While anyone can research it for themselves, without any formal educational grounding, films, TV, fiction are the only sources many will have.

    Scotland has a rich national history and that is what has made Scotland. They fact that we are not just a province of Greater England (although Unions do see it that way) is because we took our own individual and different paths throughout history.

    There needs to be more semi fictional dramas IMO. Scotland’s story needs to be told, even in stylised form.

    How about the events of the 1820 Radical War?

    Or military genius Alexander Leslie’s return from Sweden with crack officers and ships of arms to take command of the Covenanters as Scotland’s first volunteer professional army?

    Or the Crofter’s War where gun boats were dispatched to quell the restless natives in the 1880s?

    Or John Maclean? Or the Mary Barbour and the 1915 rent strike?

    Or the social upheaval of lowland clearances where people (like some of my own ancestors) left the land to work in mills (at Catrine in my ancestors case)?

  36. Iain mhor says:

    A dearth of ‘Scottish’ films really, few are big enough to get exposure. But there are gems out there – ‘The Legend of Barney Thomson’ springs to mind. Certainly in my top 5. Class, but no-one I’ve spoken to recently had ever heard of it and it had a budget and big name cast – If it’s under the radar then what chance do smaller Indy productions like “The Gaelic King” etc have?
    A Scottish ‘Ingmar Bergman’ would help. He was churning films out. Not all classics but a few and enough to elevate Swedish film and culture worldwide.
    But I still have hope the Scottish industry will get more exposure. Modern, inexpensive quality tech puts film making into almost anyone’s hands. It doesn’t all have to be explosions, cgi and Hollywood…

  37. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I would have gone for: ‘So I Married An Exe Murderer”, Mike Myers’ black comedy, featuring as it did a brilliant Scottish father, Stuart, played by Myers.

    The line: “Haw you – heid” just sums up the awful father. Very funny.

  38. Socrates MacSporran says:

    No matter how carefully you read a post – shite still gets through. “Exe” should of course be “Axe” in my 12.3pm post.

  39. galamcennalath says:

    Les Wilson says:

    distilling a sense of pride into a lot of Scots

    Yes, if something is cringe-defeating then it is to be welcomed!

    Of course, as you say, the Unionists see that as highly dangerous and threatening to their Union.

  40. Grouse Beater says:

    Alan: “Hopefully Braveheart won as a comedy rather than history”

    It won 5 Academy Awards. What awards have you won?

  41. Clootie says:

    The debate on Braveheart accuracy.

    Is it better to have had “English History” rolled out in Scotland for hundreds of years as a common UK historical record OR have a Holywood account with a degree of poetic license. I prefer the latter as it at least raises awareness of our past as an Independent nation.

    The invasion of Wales, Ireland and Scotland and the centuries of violence and manipulation to subdue these nations is seldom mentioned in history education or film production.
    …however WW1 & 2 where England’s finest hour….of course you may have noticed this recently

  42. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Never been a film fan. Enjoy a book, Christmas present which I have started reading The BBC Myth of a Public Service by Tom Mills.

    Oh dear it’s making statements suggesting the Beeb is not impartial and is basically a propaganda arm of government.

    Who would have thought it.

    Early into the book but seems like a good book. This would make an excellent documentary made by BBC no maybe not.

  43. heedtracker says:

    There is a massive nothingness of Scottish movies though. The whole of the Bonnie Prince Charlie 45 rebellion for example, is a period of extraordinary drama, changed the whole world, had extraordinary “spinoffs” in countless continent crossing lives. 45 did not begin and end with Culloden and ofcourse its never been really touched on much at all, by UK media.

    They used to give it a go. Saw this as a kid with my mum, who was pretty moved by it. It is a great film and there’s a new one out next year, coming to a screen near you!,_Queen_of_Scots_(1971_film)

    Scotland has got to get its own movie studios going, away from the beeb gimps that will only destroy it all.

    We have the talent.

    Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle.

    Starring Karen Gillan, from Inverness, bonnie Scotland.

  44. Colin Maclean says:

    The nearest I ever got to watching Braveheart was when it was on in the corner, while I was visiting a home for abandoned boys in Peru. One of my travelling companions asked whether it was on for out benefit, and she was told that the film is incredibly popular in Peru,as it parallels the story of Tupac Amaru, the last Sapa Inca, after the Spanish invaded Peru.

    More detail here:

  45. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Valerie

    I’m a fan of Mullan, too. You ever seen ‘Session 9’? He’s great in that.

  46. Reginald says:

    Off topic On Christmas Eve I was watching Carols and Lessons from Kings College Cambridge.At the end as the credits rolled,I was amazed to see that this very English event was a Pacific Quay production.

  47. Capella says:

    @ Jason Smoothpiece (?) – say no more. I’ve just downloaded it to my Kindle. It certainly gets off to a good start.

    Christmas present which I have started reading The BBC Myth of a Public Service by Tom Mills.

  48. CageyBee says:

    My recollection is that the TV premiere of Braveheart scheduled for ne’er day was postponed until the 5th of January in case we got to fu of te creatur and took up arms. Political mnipulation even back then

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    Not really surprised. People may look askance at the liberties taken with the historical facts in Braveheart but when didn’t Holywood do that with a historical tale. The movie was a blockbuster, office box success worldwide and won 5 academy awards. It is a good example of the genre.

    Personally, I liked Gregory’s Girl 🙂

  50. heedtracker says:

    Personally, I liked Gregory’s Girl

    If you like that, check out Girl in the Picture. Its much the same but its nice to see Glasgow westend mid 80’s too.

  51. Joemcg says:

    The sheer and utter hatred of braveheart by rabid yoons that borders on an obsession makes it a winner in my book. That is all a lot of them can talk about in defence of their precious union. Some of the more mental elements believe it was that film that kick started the whole yes movement.

  52. Andy-B says:


  53. yesindyref2 says:

    Braveheart came out a couple of years before the 1997 Devolution Referendum, and I seem to remember support for Independence shooting up at the time, and I think it helped the Ref achieve a 74.6% YES.

    I was posting a lot on a largely American populated UseNet group, and they were fascinated by it – and Scotland at the time of the Devo Ref. Many had thought Scotland was a separate country anyway from “England”, and couldn’t get their heads around this idea of Devolution but still being laregely controlled by “the English”.

    One of the US posters expression of dismissal of anybody’s silly claim was “and I’m the King of England”.

    The UK or Britain is still to this day called “England” by much of the world, even including people from EU countries.

  54. colin alexander says:

    Far too much output revolves around alcohol abuse, drug abuse and mindless violence.

    Neds, My name is Joe, Sweet Sixteen, Trainspotting are easy examples.

    Is that what Scottish culture has become?

    Not only does it further the stereotype of the working class Scot as a waste of space.

    It also promotes the idea of that’s “our” national identity to those of an impressionable mind.

  55. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindy2ref, before it was released in UK me and a pal went to see Braveheart all Kilted up in the Hills above San Francisco near Yosemite. Your right , lots of Americans thought we were already Independent, talking to some grizzly Adams ex Vietnam special ops right wing survivalists in the Bar afterwords, I had to explain we were still seeking our Independence, I said and when we get it, we’re gonna have , Free Education, Free Healthcare, Free Social Housing and Jobs for all, one said hey Buddy that’s a really neat Political system what do you call it? I said Communism , just escaped alive!! And I ain’t kidding ???

  56. David Caledonia says:

    I am a big James Cagney fan, i am actually a member of a group of Cagney fans
    Films are entertainment, i went to see Braveheart at the cinema in clydebank when it first came out, very entertaining and a lot of truth in it, but its not meant to be historically factual, we are dealing with hollywood after all
    I mean did John Wayne actually win the second world war all on his own, and where the native indians the bad guys as portrayed in so many westerns, i think we all know the answers to that

    Hollywood……….. Hollywood……….. Hollywood

  57. Abulhaq says:

    Braveheart and Trainspotting are both examples of Unionist colonial stereotyping. Modern Scotland needs visual representations that reject the tartan clichés and step beyond the dread cultural cringes. We might start be reclaiming our history that is the authentic, Unionism free version.

  58. heedtracker says:

    Is that what Scottish culture has become?

    Is there a blockbuster movie to be made about the great Scotch cringer Colin A?

    Or your style of yoonsterism in Scotland today?

    We just cannot make it on our own everyone Scottish, we’re too poor, small, stupid, help us England, its what the queen wants too. Lets all watch Botox Bird and then Eastenders instead.

    Hardly Star Wars, Colin A:D

  59. Highland Wifie says:

    Glad to see Sunset Song not included in this list as imho it epitomises everything that is wrong with ‘Scottish films’.
    It was inexplicably miscast and the accents were appalling. The story is meant to be set in Aberdeenshire and they couldn’t get a good female actor from there? All the others were the usual central belt actors (excellent actors though they are).
    Top that with filming some scenes in New Zealand because our scenery isn’t beautiful enough to depict our native land ffs.
    My own pick from the list is The Angel’s Share, though now that Stu has outed our innermost cringe I’m frightened to examine my reasons!

  60. David Caledonia says:

    I remember reading about a scottish guy jumping into a taxi in New York, the driver said to him, where you from buddy
    The scottish guy said, i’m from Scotland
    The New York cab driver said, yes i know scotland, that’s a part of england………. and that’s a true story, lots of americans know very little about the outside world,

  61. Andy-B says:

    O/T Apologies.

    I thought I might add in this on Boxing Day, it may sober you up a bit. That Nick Clegg is to be given a knighthood, probably for services rendered during his time as deputy PM to David Cameron.

    Where he did absolutely f*ck all to mitigate the Tories slash and burn policies, and persistent attacks on the poor, elderly, and disabled. Clegg who lost his MP’s seat, must surely go down in the annuals of history as a dud.

  62. heedtracker says:

    and that’s a true story, lots of americans know very little about the outside world,”

    And yet they made the most popular Scottish movie of all time. Funny how things work out.

  63. Les Wilson says:

    Yup, the positives of Scotland are there but only if you dig deep enough. We have invented very many things, even China refers to us a nation of inventors. Our contribution to the world is simply outstanding for the size of the nation.

    Across every subject there has been outstanding Scots, we should highlight them much more than they get. We still have much to offer the world, but that is the reason our real history is hidden, in the Unionist eyes, it must be that way. Scottish national pride, is a threat to their agenda.

  64. heedtracker says:

    Highland Wifie says:
    26 December, 2017 at 1:54 pm
    Glad to see Sunset Song not included in this list as imho it epitomises everything that is wrong with ‘Scottish films’

    How many great novels are infinitely better than the movie?

  65. Capella says:

    Mel Gibson is an American/Irish actor brought up in Australia. So a lot of cultural influences there. My favourite film starring him is “The Year of Living Dangerously” about life under the Suharto coup in Indonesia.

    Great cast and story. Don’t know if it’s on Netflix but worth a watch, after you’ve seen Rob Roy, of course, whixch didn’t get a mention in the poll.

  66. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Yes, they’re not fond of Communism. But on the other hand with a small “c” communism is a good ideal, co-operatives, community owned, all for the benefit of the community and the wider society. Fairly impractical if taken all the way, but a good thing to aim at. The USSR Communists had a sound basis, and in places like East Germany it was quite well implemented in terms of health care, housing, education. That was even reported at times on the BBC with some fairly in-depth documentaries, some health treatmens in East Germany were well advanced on what we had in the “West”.

    @David Caledonia
    Yes, some Yanks also thought that we were part of England, and couldn’t get their geographical heads around the idea that England was just a part of, well, England. Mmm. Still true, even after our Indy Ref.

  67. geeo says:

    There is an overlooked view about Braveheart and it’s historical inaccuracies.

    I believe that many of those non Scots unionists who foamed at the mouth about it, were fuming at the simple fact it was a film which inspired Scots towards independence.

    Those same foamers probably had no idea if it was accurate in it’s depiction or not. It was the films message which offended them.

    I always felt is was us Scots who knew a bit of our history, who pointed out the factual inaccuracies in Braveheart.

    As for it being an inspirational film…i remember it was played on the coach taking our taekwondo club fighters down to a big tournament in Doncaster in 1996 (think it was ’96).

    As everyone left the coach a huge roar of “freedommmm” went up. Similairly, as we entered the arena next morning, suited and booted for the competition, the cry went up again.

    We sent 17 fighters down to Doncaster, we returned with 15 medals, mostly gold. It was generally agreed that watching Braveheart DID inspire us as a team and as individuals.

    To me, that weekend was a microcosm of what a simple Holywood film had the power to do for a nation and her people.

  68. shiregirl says:

    Dr Jim says @ 1118

    Yes – Not sure what happened to Connolly. His working class, working in the shipyards whilst bad mouthing the tories and upper classes served him well. Suddenly, he was at Balmoral highland gatherings with royalty and hob-nobbing with Dench et al.

    Before you know it, he is knighted…

    Liked him in the early days and seen him live but what happened?

  69. Capella says:

    @ Highland Wifie – much of the filming for Sunset Song was filmed on Deeside near Dinnet. That attracted criticism as it’s a more leafy environment than the land around Arbuthnott.
    Not bleak enough.

  70. geeo says:

    I remember one time, i was on WoS and this guy called David Caledonia was a fanny, and we all laughed at him…

    True story…!

  71. colin alexander says:


    In 2014, it was your beloved SNP that campaigned for monetary / economic union with England and economic and political union with the EU.

    It was a policy that deprived Scotland of some of the main economic leverages of independence. It made Scotland totally dependent on the political and economic goodwill of others for it to work.

    When England’s political leaders called the SNP’s bluff and the EU didn’t want to know, it destroyed the credibility of the YES campaign’s main arguments. It pulled the rug from under the whole incredible grassroots YES campaign.

    The SNP’s whole ethos of play safe, halfway house politics destroyed the opportunity for independence. It was a time for “Bravehearts” with the courage of their convictions, but the SNP wanted to hang onto the apron strings of their colonial masters in England.

    They called it independence, it was nothing of the sort. It didn’t make sense.

    I believe that’s why many voted no. The YES campaign wasn’t convincing for the above reasons. That lesson has never been learned.

    Nobody is willing to criticise Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. Too many sycophants and not enough realists in the independence camp.

    The Unionists have learned from their weaknesses in the online world. They maintain their mainstream media stranglehold.

    It seems Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t even communicate with her MPs. When the general isn’t even communicating with her captains, how can the battle be won? The SNP are a shambles.

    The Yes movement are lions led by jack asses (though you’d qualify as a leader in that respect).

  72. Confused says:

    “Valhalla Rising” is a properly Scottish film. Worth a look.

    “Art House Ultraviolence” is the only way I can describe it, and like all good art films, no one knows what its really about. Not made by any british director, though made in Scotland with a lot of well-known Scottish actors and their accents. A cringe-free zone and no attempt to put the story into some sort of context, comparison or relationship with some crap about england or the inglish. It’s a shame it takes a foreign director to do this.

    (belatedly) – and Merry Christmas! – to all you lovely people

    I had a dream last night wee Nicola declared UDI and flew direct to Washington where the Trumpster welcomed her on the lawn and said “we welcome the new, great and historic nation of Scaaatlaaan into the world community” – and that, as they say, was that … the trigger for this breakthrough was a short conversation Sturgeon has with TheDonald beforehand – she shows him two photos …
    – see this golf course, Donald, it’s yours, right?
    – see this tanker lorry full of weedkiller, that’s ours, right!
    – you do something for me, I do something for you – let’s make a deal

    A joke, of course, but just to say that getting from A to B might need some lateral thinking and some brutal realpolitik.

  73. Marie Clark says:

    I think I’m in the Whisky Galore age group. I have seen Braveheart and I did enjoy it. Some of it was accurate history, a lot of it just Holywood nonsense.

    When I was at school, long time ago now, I was very lucky to have a teacher who did teach us a lot of our own Scottish history. I used to find it fascinating. I used to read my history books as if they were novels. She could recommend various books that we should read. It’s a wonder that she did not get her P45 for in those days, it was always English history we were taught. The battle of Hastings and all that, which really was of no interest to me. I was always more interested in my own country. I thought that I knew quite a bit of history, but I must say I’ve learned a bit more from our own Robert Peffers.

    O/T speaking of Robert, I hope by now that you have seen a doctor because you were not well yesterday. Take care the biggest battle for Independence is not too far away now I reckon.

  74. Shinty says:

    Funny how the mere mention of Braveheart has Brit Nats foaming at the mouth.

    I loved the film, equally loved Rob Roy.

    Looking forward to The Outlaw King – Chris Pine, what’s not to like.

  75. heedtracker says:

    As for it being an inspirational film…i remember it was played on the coach taking our taekwondo club fighters down to a big tournament in Doncaster in 1996 (think it was ’96).

    The Army shows 300 to frontline squaddies, the night before fire fights, in the middle east.

    Yet to hear any Spartans ranting and raging at 300’s dramatic licence taking, yoon culture in Scotland style.

    You can apply that to almost all Hollywood history movies, its just the Scots that have to either defend Braveheart, not actually made in Scotland, or shrug and wait for yoon hysterics in their Scotland region to give it a rest.

  76. Marie Clark says:

    Shiregirl @ 2.17. Whatever happened to Connolly? Well for me, he just turned into what he used to laugh at and make fun of.

    Then started hobnobbing with the luvvies, now looks down on the rest of us with our ” wee pretendy parliament”. Sad really, but there you go. Cannae abide him myself now.

  77. Liz g says:

    I have always argued the Braveheart is no a documentary…. and it got the story told,yes, a Hollywood version but it was Hollywood that was making it!

    As for all the untold stories again if Holyrood is at least makin them then IMHO it’s the UK that’s missing a trick.

    One story that I think has always needed telling is about…
    Mary of Guise…
    James the IVs wife and Mary Queen of Scot’s Mother,the Woman that Stirling Castle was built for.
    As a young widow she became Regent of Scotland and kept both Scotland and the young Queen Mary safe from the threat of the English Crown…..while also dealing with all of European Royalty too.
    Now there’s a story…is it no?

    And if its Hollywood that tell’s it!
    I really don’t care if they do it in their own way….what matters is that the story gets told…
    She deserves to be as well known as Hollywood has made any of the other Queen’s or Wallace and Bruce….. Although I wouldn’t say no to a factual (not BBC) documentary as well.
    We really do have a rich untold history and the word is always lookin for some new heroes!

  78. Dan Huil says:

    Although a Danish production Valhalla Rising has a strong Scottish connection – filmed entirely in Scotland I think.

    A weirdly wonderful film IMO.

  79. heedtracker says:

    Capella says:
    26 December, 2017 at 2:15 pm
    Mel Gibson is an American/Irish actor brought up in Australia. So a lot of cultural influences there.

    His Hamlet was made at Dunnottar Castle near Stonehaven and is one the best ever made, party because he’s so good looking in it.

    The whole crew engaged with Aberdeen, asking for school and college students to come and be extras, which a lot did. I say his but its ofcourse Franco Zeffirelli.

    And it brought who knows how many tourists to the north east.

    Ofcourse there’s also a great movie waiting in Dunnottar Castle and how they saved the Scottish crown jewels under siege from, well the English.

  80. Dan Huil says:

    @Marie Clark 2:34pm

    Agreed. Now he’s just a wee pretendy Scot.

  81. heedtracker says:

    colin alexander says:
    26 December, 2017 at 2:21 pm

    In 2014, it was your beloved SNP that campaigned for monetary / economic union with England and economic and political union with the EU.”

    Not much of a movie synopsis Colin A.

    We get it, if we want Scottish nation statehood, we must stop voting SNP… because then its going to be great n shit.

    Keep bashing that olde yoon drum Colin A.

  82. Graeme says:

    Braveheart may be factually inaccurate but if nothing else it instills a sense of national pride sadly lacking amongst Scots

    It’s almost as if we’re ashamed to be proud of our country I wonder why that is

    In a nation known more for it’s national tractors than it’s heros William Wallace is breath of fresh air,just look around you
    Darling, Brown, Davidson, Mundell etc, scum of the earth, not to mention this Parcel of Rogues
    or this shower of shit

    William Wallace is a national hero, our national hero who stood up for freedom & justice and that’s what the film depicted and that’s what matters most not it’s historical accuracy

  83. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers
    Just on the off chance you didn’t know!
    Tea and Coffee can be irritating to the Bladder so make sure you are using decaf,otherwise you could be cancelling out the effects of drinking water.
    Although I agree with the others get checked as soon as you can.
    My mum also in her 80s had the same thing and while the antibiotics knocked it back for a while, it returned with a vengeance making her quite ill, till the right combination of antibiotics was found….so stay on it and don’t ignore it Robert,nae point in having the best health care in the UK and no makin use o it eh?
    Mind and do the odd wee post though so we don’t worry!

  84. Richard Hunter says:

    If Braveheart is ‘historically inaccurate’, could someone give me an example of a film that is historically accurate?

  85. colin alexander says:


    Why should you need to stop voting SNP?

    The SNP are supposed to be delivering a referendum on indy between autumn 2018/ spring 2019, that one that Nicola Sturgeon went quiet about while trying to negotiate Scotland’s Brexit – after Scotland voted Remain. (So much for respecting the Scottish electoral mandate).

    I’ll believe it when I see it. I would vote YES, if I had the chance, but it’s no gonnae happen. Nicola Sturgeon Disney want to keep the manifesto mandate as she is no a Braveheart and the SNP are a Mickey Mouse puppet government.

    When I think of the opportunities presented but lost when the Labour Party was on it’s knees and the Tory Party was in disarray over the EU. The SNP on a 100,000+ and support for indy as high as ever, and the SNP did NOTHING to further the independence campaign I get, That Sinking Feeling.

  86. David McDowell says:

    “Tory/Lib Dem voters opting for Whisky Galore”

    Most revealing!

  87. Robert Peffers says:

    @louis.b.argyll says: 26 December, 2017 at 11:08 am:

    “Aye, and we’ve got plenty more historical inaccuracies to make movies about..”

    Not to mention the biggest historical lie of the lot. The claims that the Treaty of Union was a freely agreed treaty between two equally sovereign kingdoms.

    Factually the evidence is all there in the public domain but the Westminster Propaganda is effective in hiding the evidence in plan view. They just rewrote taught history to suit themselves.

    First of all there was no, “Union of the Crowns”, in 1603 – excepting a personal union for only James VI himself. The proof of that is that Westminster had to force the Treaty of Union upon Scotland in 1706/7. Why would such a treaty be required if there was already a real union of the crowns in 1603?

    The reason there was no 1603 union of the crowns was quite simple. The English Rule of Law and The English Parliament would not allow it to happen. This because under the English Rule of Law of 1603, (which was still, “The Divine Right of Kings”), and thus God, (the giver of the Divine Right), chose the next monarch by having the next in line implanted in the current distaff monarchy womb. The Scottish Rule of law had abandoned the Divine Right of Kings to rule, (Sovereignty). The Scottish rule of Law was changed in 1320 by the Holy Roman se accepting the Declaration of Arbroath.

    This not only had the then international authority accept that Scotland was an independent Kingdom but that the people, not the monarch of Scotland, had the Divine Right and could choose to replace a monarch they considered to not be protecting the people’s divine right, (Sovereignty). Scottish Monarchs are designated King/Queen of Scots they lead the Scots but do not own Scotland nor have Scottish subjects – they are thus not legally sovereign.

    So in 1603, for 283 years, Scottish monarchs had not had legal sovereignty and thus Jamie Saxt did not have the legal sovereignty to either amalgamate with Westminster nor give away the people’s legal sovereignty to Westminster. You cannot give what you do not own.

    The Treaty of Union of 1706/7 does not alter that fact but factually affirms the principle. Who then can blame James VI for packing up his Scottish Court where he was not a sovereign monarch and relocating to England where he was a fully sovereign monarch. James spent the rest of his life attempting to convince the World he had a United Kingdom. All he had was two independent crowns on his own one head and he couldn’t actually wear both crows together.

    Then the still independent English parliamentarians rebelled against the English monarch who held both, still independent, Kingdom’s crowns and deposed him as the sovereign monarch of England. However, as the English Rule of Law was the Divine Right of Kings that made the entire Westminster Parliament ("Tractor" - Ed)s and rebels against their legally sovereign monarch. This had no legal effect upon Scotland because both kingdoms still remained independent until 1706/7.

    What followed was that the English rebel parliament had a civil war and they applied the result of that war to the still independent Kingdom of Scotland declaring that the Jacobites were the rebels. However, the Jacobites were actually fighting to retain their own Scottish monarch’s succession. That is, Westminster assumed their deposing of their rightful monarchy and their replacing of their direct English sovereign monarch with the joint foreign monarchs of King Billy & Queen Mary of The House of Orange also applied to the still independent Kingdom of Scotland.

    Thus the so called Jacobite Rebellions were actually wars between two still independent kingdoms and not as English history would have us believe – a United Kingdom Civil War.

    Which brings us to the proceedings leading to the Treaty of Union of 1706/7. The English Parliament had long operated a system known as, “The English Navigation Acts”:-

    a series of acts of, (the English), Parliament, the first of which was passed in 1381, that attempted to restrict to English ships the right to carry goods to and from England and its colonies. The attempt to enforce the acts helped cause the War of American Independence.

    These laws were thus illegally applied to Scotland and the effect was to have the English Mercantile Marine dictate not only the prices paid to Scottish producers for exports to England and the English colonies but also the prices paid by Scottish consumers of imports from England and English Colonies. (think such as spices, wines/spirits, sugar, tea, coffee and tobacco). This, more than any other factor caused the, (claimed by England), Scottish Bankruptcy that led to the acceptance of the Treaty of Union. In truth Scotland was not bankrupted – only the wealthy landowners/parliamentarians were.

    Scotland, in 1706/7 had no national debt but England, after fighting with most of the European and many English Colonies, (American War of Independence), had massive national debts. More of this presently.

    See also:-

    So the English Parliament were in dire financial straits and a London Scot, William Paterson, instigated a subscription scheme to raise funds for the English Parliamentary Treasury and this led to the private company, “The Governor and Company of the Bank of England”, so called not because England’s Parliament owned it but because they banked with it. It was formed under a Royal Charter but note that the Royal was monarch of the two still independent Kingdoms of England & Scotland.

    History proves that William Paterson was in the employ of Sir Robert Harley, who was England’s spymaster and Paterson was also friends with Daniel Defoe a known English undercover Agent and both agents were in Edinburgh before, and during, the lead up to The signing of the Treaty of Union. Paterson in fact was responsible for setting up the Darien Expedition that finally did bankrupt many Scottish Parliamentarians/Landowners.

    Not to mention that the English Crown/Parliament had banned the Royal Navy and the English army from aiding the Scots expeditionary people both at Darien and on the voyage to the area. Then there was the English forces massed at the Scottish Border and the Royal Navy fleet lying off the Firth of Forth.

    The Treaty of Union was really forced upon the Scottish parliament but the legally sovereign people of Scotland were rioting in the streets against its signing.

    Like my old history teacher taught it, (she was an exception to the normal rule), “Freely entered into? – like hell it was”.

    Unfortunately most Scots, (if they get taught any Scottish History), only ever get the official Westminster, rewritten, English view of the matter as seen through English eyes.

  88. heedtracker says:

    Ooh aren’t you a clever yoon Colin A.

    Not saying your brand of stop voting SNP for Scottish nationstate hood might work Colin A, afterall 1 in 4 Scots vote Colonel Ruth, who knows how many Scots sit and watch Botox Bird go UKOK nuts at the SNP every Scottish teatime, but its still a very sneaky creepy yoon con, you’re trying to pull off.

  89. galamcennalath says:

    OT I note a lot of media chatter about the UK, Turkey, and Ukraine could end up with the same relationship with the EU. No offence to Turkey and Ukraine, but is that the aspirations of the South British? Forward thinking Scots aspire to mimic Denmark, Norway, or Finland.

    Jeez, we really are on a different path!

    You know … some good might well come out of Brexit. Scotland gets independence coupled to the EU in some sensible way. Ireland reunites. And England … well iEngland gets some timeout, sitting in isolation and sulking in a corner, so it can decide what and where it actually wants to be.

  90. Hamish100 says:

    Poor Colin Alexander

    I would vote for independence if given the chance.

    It will happen. Let’s watch the brexiters unionists and apologists from labour, twist on the bayonet of Brexit. The longer the better. They can’t get free of the bayonet but bleat that they don’t really want it. But will take the pain.

    It will be simple

    Scotland remains in EU as a self governing country
    Scotland leaves the EU with England ruling

  91. Gullane No4 says:

    Quite surprised that Local Hero and Gregory’s Girl did not figure higher.
    Aged related I suppose.

  92. stu mac says:

    @Bugger (the Panda) says:
    26 December, 2017 at 11:05 am
    I much preferred Rob Roy to Braveheard.
    Same here. And I much prefer either to Braveheart. 🙂

    Seriously, Braveheart is just a piece of mindless entertainment but Rob Roy is a more serious and better written/made movie. For instance the English villain has a back story and motivation while Edward I in Braveheart is no more than a pantomime villain.

    Rob Roy of course is written by a Scot but by a Scot with a fine reputation as a screenwriter. While Rob Roy also has an element of fiction mixed in its history, the fiction has a feeling of “truth” (the characters may not have said and done some of the things shown but it’s true to the way they spoke and acted in real life. Interesting guy Alan sharp

  93. geeo says:

    The problem with Coco Alexander’s argument is that his unionist desperation is shining like a beacon.

    No longer a pretendy indy supporter, he has broke ‘cover'(we ALWAYS knew what coco was) and is now openly trolling his anti indy/SNP line.

    Newsflash Coco, SNP support is STILL HUGE .

    11 MORE WM MP’s than ALL OTHERS COMBINED, just 6 short months ago and membership still in 6 figures.

    Stats that labour the tories and the lib dems can only fantasize about.

    An indyref mandate all locked up and ready to deploy when the time is right (that really annoys unionists, not wasting the mandate on poor timing, hence constant demands to use it by unionists).

    Brexit becoming a bigger shambles by the week, a Tory party failing to govern, and a labour party as much use as a chocolate teapot in a blast furnace.

    Meanwhile indy support is RISING despite NO indyref date, and NO Yes campaign even started yet!!

    Timing is everything Coco, and the time is coming shortly, and when it does, you will see exactly where the indy campaign is at.

    2012 indy support 29%.

    2014 indy support 45%

    2017 indy support 49% AT LEAST (3% margin of error = possibly at 52%, same as Brexit vote)

    2018/19……? Not much required to win indyref. If the MoE is the high end (52%) in the latest poll, we could LOSE some Support and STILL WIN.

    Your union is over Coco. Just awaiting a burial date.

  94. Graemeo Rab says:

    I agree with the sentiment that Braveheart may not be historically accurate in many ways,however it was the very fact that it was made at all that infuriates many a Jock-Brit. To them our Historical figures should be shown through the filter of The Anglo Brit state. NB. The fury regards a modern historical figure like Alex Salmond circumventing the British rules to go with RT. My own personal favourite is Bill Paterson’s Local Hero.

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    Damn, thought I’d cleaned up and hoovered up all the soiled cat litter. But some clown has scattered more around.

  96. colin alexander says:


    If a referendum were held, I would vote YES to independence, so how does that make me anti-independence? I campaigned for and voted YES last time too.

    I’m a former member, former SNP activist. I voted SNP at the last GE when 500,000 SNP votes disappeared.

    Currently, I’ve no intentions of voting SNP again and am highly critical of their failures. That’s my democratic right. I am open about that.

    If there’s a YES campaign, I will support YES, not the UK Union.

    Under the current Tory / Labour UK set up, I believe independence can only be achieved by electing a majority of Scottish politicians on a mandate of unilaterally ending the Union.

    Independence by referendum requires UK Govt cooperation (Section 30) that experience shows would only be given when it looks very likely YES won’t win.

  97. Capella says:

    Enjoying my Kindle copy of the book “The BBC: Myth of a Public Service” by Dr Tom Mills, mentioned by Jason Smoothpiece above.
    If you didn’t get a good book for Xmas I recommend this one. It takes apart the myth of BBC impartiality that Stu’s been highlighting on WoS for years.

    Too many brilliant observation to post quotes – have a look Inside at amazon:

    @ Robert Peffers – hi Robert. You feeling better today?

  98. Highland Wifie says:

    Thanks for the link Capella. I don’t know Aberdeenshire very well, being more familiar with the A9 corridor. Interesting.

  99. Highland Wifie says:

    Most of them!

  100. cearc says:

    Whisky galore for me, I’m enjoying it right now….

    Oh, whoops, you’re talking about films!

  101. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Maybe TC finds Motherwell kit easier to find ?”

    Wow, outed on the main thread! Whit a riddy…The love that dare not speak its name.

    @Tackety Beets: no problems finding them in the club shop. Nobody wants them at the moment 😛 As you say, never to be seen in the big sportswear chains.

    Enjoying this thread. Connolly didn’t even have to make the effort to act when playing John Brown in that God-awful toadyfest. Grouse Beater had an excellent article a while ago on BC that just about said it all.

    I hadn’t seen Braveheart at all until I had to stay near Hamburg last year for a few days. I turned on the TV when I got into my hotel room and there it was with German subtitles. Enjoyed it, particularly lovely, doomed Murron and Horner’s brilliant music.

    Fair gets the hackles up, mind.

  102. velofello says:

    I’ve never watched Trainspotting, it may be a fair representation of life “in the schemes”, but I don’t believe in washing your linen in public.Local Hero is for me A1. I was in the Midddle East when Braveheart was broadcast there. My project team, Arabic, Indian, Pakistani and Filipinos loved it.
    Looks like we are going to have a National Investment Bank. I like the idea of a National Film Company,and I would like the opportunity of having a modest shareholding, whether by income tax, or direct share purchase.

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    @colin alexander
    Your arguements for UDI on the basis of electing a majority of Independence politicians, while at the same time saying you won’t vote SNP, is as credible as taking a fan heater to the North Pole to heat the air there.

    Or as credible as you claiming you posted on Wings back in 2015 / 16 when the google search on site “colin alexander”” between those dates, clearly shows you did not.

  104. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Do any Wingers know actor Brian Cox personally?

    Reason I ask has been discussed in previous threads – the Tom Steel series of his own book ‘Scotland’s Story’ (Channel 4/STV, 1985) is no longer available on Youtube. It used to be there. We *know* it was there because we’ve shared links to extracts from it several times.

    Perhaps it’s just a copyright issue, but in any case, Brian Cox is probably better placed than most of us to ask the relevant high heid-yins what’s happened to it. Cox played Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun in the episode dealing with the Union of 1707, and the book contains several of the passages which he ‘performed’.

    If anyone knows the man could they please give him a discreet heads-up about this?

  105. Love Braveheart,Rob Roy was good but not 5 Oscars good,

    The new MacBeth was very good,Marion Cotillard as Lady Macbeth was excellent,

    can`t remember much discussion about the historical accuracy by the Scottish cringers though.

    o/t, got Yanis Varoufakis book `Adults in the Room` or `My battle with Europe`s deep establishment`

    couple of chapters in and very interesting,already confirming a lot of what is written about the establishment on Wings.

  106. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Capella @4.18

    You are right it is a good read a must for Winger types.

    Highly recommended it to all our folks.

  107. Legerwood says:

    Liz g says:
    26 December, 2017 at 2:35 pm
    I have always argued the Braveheart is no a documentary…. and it got the story told,yes, a Hollywood version but it was Hollywood that was making it!

    As for all the untold stories again if Holyrood is at least makin them then IMHO it’s the UK that’s missing a trick.

    One story that I think has always needed telling is about…
    Mary of Guise…
    James the IVs wife and Mary Queen of Scot’s Mother,the Woman that Stirling Castle was built for.

    I think you might want to check out that last bit. Stirling Castle existed long before Mary of Guise came along.

    The later Stuart monarchs added to the castle – James IV/Great Hall; James V/Royal Palace – but it was in existence long before they came along.

    The Royal Palace in the Castle, which was started by James V, was unfinished at the time of his death and it was Mary of Guise, his wife, who finished it.

  108. Legerwood says:

    Films: The Master of Ballantrae starring Errol Flynn.

    Loosely based on the novel of the same name written by Robert Louis Stevenson.

    It was set in Scotland during the ’45 uprising.

  109. MJT says:

    Shame there’s no mention of Ratcatcher, Lynne Ramsay’s debut feature. A great coming of age story set in the 70’s in Glasgow. It’s a much better film than her follow up Morvern Callar, which wasn’t a bad film either. There are elements of early Terrence Malick and a touch of Robert Bresson in there too, and the central performances by young, non professional actors are excellent and very moving.

    I always tell people, if they want to watch a great Scottish film, with great acting and great images, check out Ratcatcher. It’s amazing how unaware most people are of some of our greatest ‘modern’ art, be it film or music or whatever.

    Yes yes Whisky Galore is great, Gregory’s Girl is great, as is Local Hero, yes, but there’s more stuff out there. Do we have a sound stage yet? There will be no miracles here.

  110. colin alexander says:


    I did post on the Wings’ Twitter feed under Colin Alexander in 2015. Search that if you like. I did send material to Stu, which Stu used as the basis of his article about the then Labour MP and Unionist career politician, John Robertson.

    If the SNP changed policy and stopped standing for administrating devolved Westminster Govt ( North Britain Branch Office) and instead stood for ending the Union, then I would want to vote for them. But they don’t / won’t.

    Anyway, Wingers keep promising me an indyref in approx a year. I can prove my assertions, let’s see if Saint Nic brings that Christmas present next Xmas and proves the Wingers correct or proves them as gullible for believing false SNP promises.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    @ colin alexander says: “I did post on the Wings’ Twitter feed under Colin Alexander in 2015.

    Not according to google – “Colin Alexander” – and go into tools – any time – custom range – and set dates From 1/1/2015 To 12/31/2016.

    The only mention of your name is such as “colin alexander on Alex Cole-Hamilton Fact Check;” – all 8 of them recent threads.

    Do you want to call a friend? Ask the audience?

  112. Robert Kerr says:

    O/T maybe.

    Hope all WoSers had as good a Christmas as I had.

    Best present by far was a newly published (13th November) book.

    “Queensferry Crossing Vision to Reality” Published in the Isle of Man by Lily Publications

    Initially available to those who worked on the project. A superb book produced in West Wales by Gomer Press

    Everyone involved must be proud of their work. What an addition to a CV!

    The detractors and denigrators should be ashamed. (Yes, we know who you are!)

    Oh and as an aside I can inform David Hughes that I am the same Robert that he knows. Thanks for the card David.

  113. heedtracker says:

    colin alexander says:
    26 December, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    I did post on the Wings’ Twitter feed under Colin Alexander in 2015. Search that if you like. I did send material to Stu, which Stu used as the basis of his article about the then Labour MP and Unionist career politician, John Robertson

    So who are you voting for now Colin A?

    Who do you want us to vote for too?

    Green maybe?

    Bumped into Patrick Harvie on Victoria Road, Saturday afternoon, lovely guy, switched on, likes the crack clearly but Green’s are not exactly making much of an impact though.

    SNP are far Greener that the Greens. Scotland as nation state EU member would be a far Greener country, tory twat free, than anything in the UKOK zone right now, unless a nuke power station blows up, which can never happen in old teamGB, because wur British.

    China Syndrome, also a great movie, before CGI and the only superhero was the best one, SuperMan:D

  114. Jacksg says:

    I agree with MJT

    Ratcatcher is great. Another good film is Peter Mullens Orphans. ?

  115. Ian Foulds says:

    Well said David P at 12.02pm

  116. colin alexander says:


    It seems the irony is lost on you.

    Stu highlighted Tory supporter, Eric Simpson’s online abuse of Patrick Harvey (by calling him a twat) and yet you indulge in the same sort of online abusive behaviour by calling people twats. Did you ask Mr Harvey if he approves?

    I’ll decide who I’m voting for after Ms Sturgeon decides whether the SNP will betray or fulfil their manifesto pledge of another indyref – or what they’ll do instead.

    My voting intentions is not something that I need to consider now,as there are no forthcoming elections.

  117. Ian Foulds says:

    Also well said


    at 12.38pm

  118. Famous15 says:

    Colin Alexander if it looks like,smells like,talks like writes like a Unionist then it is a Unionist.

    And I claim my £5.

  119. Gary45% says:

    Rocket Post, a wee gem.( WATCH IT)
    There was also a wee film called “The Match”, if you can switch off Richard E Grants Scoattish Accent, its also a gem.
    Nick Clugg = Knighthood WTF. Sums it up really.
    18 year old Highland Park kicking in.

  120. frogesque says:

    Sunshine On Leith.

    Liked the film, saw the local amdram production live at Leven, liked it even more.

    Proclaimers not everyone’s cup of tea but this was good.

  121. galamcennalath says:

    @Ian Foulds

    Thanks. Scottish history is full of great characters and stories. Much good fodder for the screen.

    So many Scots lack knowledge of their own roots because it has been replaced by a foreign English narrative.

    Scots know more about Henry VIII than James IV. Or events of 1066 than of 1320.

    Any knowledge, even fictionalised, is better than nothing.

  122. heedtracker says:

    My voting intentions is not something that I need to consider now,as there are no forthcoming elections.”

    But Colin A, what does all that gibberish really mean?

    Scottish politics and future nation statehood permeates almost everything now. Its one of the great triumphs of YES democracy. Scotland’s nation state future can’t all be erased from our collective conscience, no matter how our staggeringly corrupt and anti democratic beeb gimp network tries.

    Maybe you yoons should get yourselves a Men in Black memory eraser thing, because its the only way now.

    Click replay, over 4 million times:D

    For whom should we vote for, support, btl chat about, is all I ask of your wiseness and integrity Colin A, you tory twat.

    For the record, I would not approach any tory twat in the street, as I would a Green or SNP for example. Its much the same as trying to avoid any undesirable, in the street.

    So this issue of calling a tory twat to their tory twat face, is not the issue.

    It was very nice to bump into Patrick Harvie like that though. He’s a genuine approachable bloke and clearly realises that he’s a very familiar face in Scotland today.

    And let’s face Colin A you tory twat, no Green or SNP has ever voted to kill anyone, let alone caused us harm.

    Its something all tory twats should dwell on, for Xmas.

  123. D reid says:

    Two words …..OUTLAW KING
    its going to blow it out the water

  124. Lenny Hartley says:

    Been looking for vids of Scotlands Story , no sign yet as a lot of the labels have come off the cassettes, however found Video’s with things like a recording of debates pre 92 election etc, anybody interested in those if so I’ll get them on computer and put up on u tube. Might take a while mind you.

  125. ScottieDog says:

    *front* – from

  126. A wee hidden gem is Peter Sellers B&W comedy, ‘The Battle of the Sexes’ based on a James Thurber short ‘The Catbird Seat’.
    Sellers plays the head clerk in the Edinburgh Offices of a Tweed making company.
    The old propritetor pops his clogs and his Eton Oxbridge educated son, Robert Morley, who else? inherits the business and is mesmerised by an American lady time and motion expert into ‘modernising’ the business.
    The hundreds of croft weavers are to be replaced by automated looms in a mass production factory and synthetic yarn is to replace the traditional tweed.
    Sellers decides to bump her off ,of course.
    A lovely wee gentle comedy from 1959, which has relevance today in this bright brand new downsized rightsized century.
    It’s set in Edinburgh, with a strong Scottish cast.
    I’m off to YouTube it now.

  127. colin alexander says:


    No chance of bumping into me in the street then, if some WoS posters are to be believed.

    According to them, I’m either at the British Army’s 77th Brigade Headquarters in Berkshire or maybe Force Troops Command at Wiltshire, GCHQ in Cheltenham or MI5 at Thames House, London.

    But then again, some people read too many Andy McNab and Chris Ryan books.

  128. Graeme says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    26 December, 2017 at 6:37 pm

    “Been looking for vids of Scotlands Story , no sign yet as a lot of the labels have come off the cassettes, however found Video’s with things like a recording of debates pre 92 election etc, anybody interested in those if so I’ll get them on computer and put up on u tube. Might take a while mind you.”

    I’m almost 100% certain I have all Scotlands Story episodes on VHS I was gonna start digitizing them today but I can’t find my capture card but I will do it over the festive period one way or another and post back

  129. heedtracker says:

    According to them, I’m either at the British Army’s 77th Brigade Headquarters in Berkshire or maybe Force Troops Command at Wiltshire, GCHQ in Cheltenham or MI5 at Thames House, London.”

    If you gave a straight answer…

    Takes all sorts, you, zoomers like Rock The National botherer, Lochside the dilettante prick spotter etc, all of you chunter on and on, UDI now!, sack the SNP, they’re terrible, we should have declared UDI/snap indyref2, as soon as SNP won 56 MP’s 2015, or straight after the Brexit ref 2016, and certainly straight after the Strong Stable snap GE, but its all over now, so give up and go home.

    If you are a 77th Brigade berk, you lot really need to come up with more original UKOK online jibber jabber.

    It is interesting though Colin A, how you lot suddenly start jumping up and down cyber Britnat style, when something like latest polls show Scots voting for Scottish independence and EU membership now at 50%.

    And all that, after over 4 years of spectacular BBC led SNP bad Britnat propaganda, rammed down our Scottish throats too Colin A.

    Must be a very big UKOK puzzle indeed, for you lot:D

  130. colin alexander says:

    I thought VHS tapes had Macrovision copy protection?

  131. louis.b.argyll says:

    Robert P. 3.09pm.
    YES Robert, these imbalances of influence you list etc are still being played out in this modern world.

    Re-franchisement of elitism
    disenfranchisement of nation states.

    Solidifying power and the means to get it vs
    Dilution of universal rights and the means to enforce them.

  132. Famous15 says:

    Colin Alexander regulars all know you are a toxic Tory Unionist.So you lying and cheating your way endlessly on this site deserves the abuse aimed at such ordure on the face of democracy.

  133. Fraser Darling says:

    The stand out figure for me is the biggest Indy ref ’14 contingent was the “did not vote” vote.

    The next referendum will be won be the side who gains the most of these “voters” AND who loses the least to this “vote”.

  134. Phronesis says:

    Great to see the supremely talented Lynne Ramsay mentioned. ‘Ratcatcher’ has one of the best opening scenes of any film and was shot in Glasgow and around Scotland. Her short films particularly ‘Gasman’ and ‘Kill the Day’ are also excellent.

  135. freedomlover says:

    MJT says:
    26 December, 2017 at 5:37 pm
    ‘Shame there’s no mention of Ratcatcher, Lynne Ramsay’s debut feature’- too true, unfortunately we Scots, and Brits in general, are not well educated in the most powerful art form of the 20th Century. The usual we get is ‘films are no as good as the book'(even though I could name a thousand shit books made into filmic masterpieces) or ‘it wiznae real enough’ (as if reference to the external world were the measure of a films true power). Film creatively utilizes material elements of the real world such as time, space and objects and transforms them imaginatively into a new world- how can any other art form compete with that? The fact that we have such a modest catalogue of films to choose from as a nation, especially compared to other small countries like Denmark, Sweden or Portugal, shows the power of the medium- the metropolitan elites don’t want to encourage a homegrown Bergman or a modern Scottish equivalent of a Refn, Vinterberg or Moodyson. By finding a truly strident cultural voice we might become a confident nation. Its also interesting you should mention Robert Bresson in reference to Lynn Ramsey, specifically to Ratcatcher, as the Scottish filmmaker most reminiscent of Bresson, and with probably our only truly world class international film ‘artist’ (not mentioned by one person), is Bill Douglas- his mighty low budget epic biographic masterpiece being the Trilogy. Again, Douglas’ neglect, reflects the lack of knowledge many Scots have of our film culture, and how much of our most valuable contributions to world culture frequently overshadowed by the louder imperialist voices of British or American culture.

  136. colin alexander says:

    The SNP’s support for the Named Person Scheme and Smacking Ban will be Christmas and birthdays rolled into one for the Tory Party in Scotland.

    It will give credence to the assertion that the SNP ( and Scottish Green Party) are Big Brother watching you or as the Tory rent-a-mob like to call them: “National Socialists” seeking to impose SNP rule in people’s private family lives.

  137. heedtracker says:

    It will give credence to the assertion that the SNP ( and Scottish Green Party) are Big Brother watching you or as the Tory rent-a-mob like to call them: “National Socialists” seeking to impose SNP rule in people’s private family lives”

    That’s a very yoon tory tantrum Colin A.

    If you want call the SNP nazi, why hold back? 77th training is not that great is it, under a little pressure, you all seem to wet your pants online.

    Thought military training was all about absorbing pressure Colin A tory twat.

  138. Gary45% says:

    You will be easily spotted walking up the street.
    The “Yoon back to front underpants on the head” are a dead give away.
    There is no hiding.

  139. Scott says:

    Sorry folks but O/T but worth noting.

    Demand for apology as community chief quits in Twitter row

    A community stalwart has been urged to publicly apologise over offensive posts on Twitter after quitting two senior posts in the row.Eric Simpson.

    Another story in todays P&J I wonder when Davidson will be confronted by BBC Scotland maybe GMS will ask her.

  140. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t know where this Rob Roy stuff’s coming from, it was a bad movie that looked like it had been filmed with a super 8 camera, badly edited, Tim Roth was a cartoon of an English fop from a Carry on film and Liam Neesons accent was deplorabley bad because of the big guys inability to hide his own Irish accent which to this day he still can’t get rid of, so as an actor it puts him in the same catagory as Big Sean who could never disguise his accent either, so if you like the men you tend to like the movies they’re in which is not to denigrate the men themselves, they do the job they’re asked to do

    These were guys like Clint Eastwood John Wayne Gary Cooper, I mean Errol Flynn *Jeez* and such who are really more screen icon leading men rather than stage actors so “acting” isn’t really a prerequisite for the part, it’s all really about screen presence

    Mel Gibsons movie Braveheart is for me the biggest and best yet so much so I can never watch the end bit, but what’s more important about Braveheart is Yoonworld gets terrified of the emotion it creates and that’s why they rubbish it so much

    Their fear and loathing of it is tangible and as I mentioned earlier The Patriot was the same movie for Americans and the Yanks loved it but the Britnats didn’t did they

    Anything that fills the Britnats with fear and dread of looking bad is pretty good in my book

  141. yesindyref2 says:

    I thought VHS tapes had Macrovision copy protection?

    I’ve run this through enigma and it comes out as:

    I thought = Took some Senocot for
    VHS tapes = my ringworm
    had Macrovision copy = now I’m seeing double
    protection = help me Mama!

  142. galamcennalath says:

    As far as national content quotas on TV goes, many countries insist on a minimum.

    In most I assume the PSB/State Broadcaster will be mainly local by default! But even for commercial rules can apply … Australia … “The BSA requires all commercial free-to-air television licensees to broadcast an annual minimum transmission quota of 55 per cent Australian programming between 6am and midnight on their primary channel.”

    Can you imagine how different it would be if commercial TV channels beamed across Scotland were required to show at least 55% ‘made in Scotland’ programming?

    It’s a bit of hen and egg situation. If Scottish TV showed mainly Scottish content we would have been independent decades ago, yet we won’t achieve such national focus until after we are independent!

  143. Effijy says:

    Seen a BBC clip today listing all the celebrities who
    Passed away in 2017.
    The was an astonishing number of BBC producers,
    Broadcasters, etc on that list.

    Had me wondering if they were being culled before
    They confessed in retirement about the BBC sheltering
    The likes of Saville and dozens more?

  144. yesindyref2 says:

    Must be time for the rock shift to come on “Why hasn’t the ‘Independence supporting’ National shown this Braveheart movie, and why did the SNP run scared of starring in it in June after the EU Ref? Peffers should have a website on it and why isn’t Heed and his Slovene ex-girlfriend promoting it in the Guardian”?

  145. Bob Mack says:

    @Colin Alexander.

    You might have a point, if there was no Kincora, Haute de la Garenne, and too many other institutions to list. I think you ought to check child abuse statistics in Scotland and the rest of the UK before you pass “expert” judgement on anything.
    Subjectivity only applies to yourself, and it seems your knowledge in the field of abuse is sadly lacking.

  146. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’ve always regarded “Night Mail” as a characteristically Scottish film, being produced by the GPO film unit, when John Grierson was in charge.

    Some quotes from:-

    “John Grierson CBE (26 April 1898 – 19 February 1972) was a pioneering Scottish documentary maker, often considered the father of British and Canadian documentary film. In 1926, Grierson coined the term “documentary” in a review of Robert Flaherty’s Moana.”

    “In 1923, he received a Rockefeller Research Fellowship to study in the United States at the University of Chicago, and later at Columbia and the University of Wisconsin–Madison. His research focus was the psychology of propaganda—the impact of the press, film, and other mass media on forming public opinion. Grierson was particularly interested in the popular appeal and influence of the “yellow” (tabloid) press, and the influence and role of these journals on the education of new American citizens from abroad.”

    “In 1933 the EMB Film Unit was disbanded, a casualty of Depression era economics. Grierson’s boss at the EMB moved to the General Post Office (GPO) as its first public relations officer, with the stipulation that he could bring the EMB film unit with him. Grierson’s crew were charged with demonstrating the ways in which the Post Office facilitated modern communication and brought the nation together, a task aimed as much at GPO workers as the general public. During Grierson’s administration, the GPO Film Unit produced a series of groundbreaking films, including Night Mail…”

    “In 1938, Grierson was invited by the Canadian government to study the country’s film production. He proposed that the government create a national coordinating body for the production of films. In 1939, Canada created the National Film Commission, which would later become the National Film Board of Canada. Grierson was the first Commissioner of the Board. When Canada entered World War II in 1939, the NFB focused on the production of propaganda films, many of which Grierson directed. For example, captured footage of German war activity was incorporated in documentaries that were distributed to the then-neutral United States.”

    Interesting mentions of ‘propaganda’…

    Onnyhoo, here’s the link to the film, featuring poetry by Auden and music by Britten.

  147. Macart says:

    Huh. Well, I am surprised. Still, at least Whisky Galore got an honourable mensh. 🙂

  148. colin alexander says:


    If you aren’t all talk. Here’s a bet:

    If Stu confirms I have contributed to Wings website in one form or another in 2015 or Tweeted to Wings Twitter in 2015, you make a £100 donation to Stu’s legal costs or to the Wings Website within a week of the confirmation.

    And I get apologies from you and Alex Clark / Thepnr

    If Stu says I am lying about this, I stay off Wings for 6 months from 1 January 2018 to to 30 June 2018.


    “The Bridal Path” is gentle humour from a bygone era.

    I’m not calling the SNP or anyone any names. Calling the SNP nazis is as puerile as calling Tories something like twits. So, I’ll leave you to it, if that’s your thing.

  149. Grandpaw Ponsonby says:

    My least favourite Scottish film is Gillies MackInnon’s Conquest of the South Pole. It’s Gilles’ first and not without promise and the actors include a young Ewen Bremner but whoever wrote the deadly pretentious script should be found and stopped from owning a pen. Aggressively awkward, ill-conceived pish

  150. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    The Rev. Deus ex btl.

  151. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi colin alexander.

    I usually skim past your utterances but I will stick my tuppence worth in. You posted in an earlier page, on 24 December, 2017 at 6:26 pm:


    That’s a fairly accurate summary, but not quite. I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15.”

    You claimed there, to have been posting HERE, ie this web site, “since at least 2014 / 15.”.

    Fair enough; you make the claim, which others (Thepnr) are entitled to investigate.

    Thepnr found through a site-specific Google search, that your earliest post on THIS web site was in January of this year, not in “2014 / 15”.

    You have, since that exposure of your ‘economy with the truth’, changed your story to what you claim now:

    ” colin alexander says:
    26 December, 2017 at 5:40 pm


    I did post on the Wings’ Twitter feed under Colin Alexander in 2015.”

    and later today,

    ” colin alexander says:
    26 December, 2017 at 9:38 pm


    If you aren’t all talk. Here’s a bet:

    If Stu confirms I have contributed to Wings website in one form or another in 2015 or Tweeted to Wings Twitter in 2015, you make a £100 donation to Stu’s legal costs or to the Wings Website within a week of the confirmation.

    And I get apologies from you and Alex Clark / Thepnr

    If Stu says I am lying about this, I stay off Wings for 6 months from 1 January 2018 to to 30 June 2018.


    You don’t understand what a web site is, do you? This one here, is the web site of the ‘Wings Over Scotland’ blog. It has nothing to do with Twitter. Rev Stu has mentioned in the past that Twitter is his playground but this web site is his place of business – his ‘office’.

    You claimed you posted on this web site in 2014/15: that was a blatant lie. You may have posted on Twitter but that is not “here”.

    What will you do for the next 6 months? You will be bereft…

  152. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Shit, wrong login.

  153. Early Ball says:

    I remember a film I liked as a kid called Geordie starring Bill Travers. He was a skinny little kid living on a remote island. He may have been played by Paul Young. The lad got Charles Atlas magazines and grew up to represent Scotland in the Hammer in the Commonwealth Games or Empire games as they were called then. Not sure if it would stand the test of time. I would go for Trainspotting or Gregory’s Girl. Good shout from Socrates although it probably does not qualify.

  154. ScottyBoy says:

    No one went for the oddly satirical slasher “White Settlers” or the dark and surreal “The Last Great Wilderness”, Ford Kiernan in a horror movie people!!!

  155. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Early Ball.

    It was Bill Travers who played “Geordie”.

  156. Sinky says:

    Sky News review team going ballistic over Facebook claim that they won the 2015 GE for the SNP.
    Nothing to do with Nicola Sturgeon wiping the floor in UK leaders debate which ensured T May wouldn’t face her in 2017

  157. ScottieDog says:

    Good to see snp raising awareness about the inequality caused by QE..

  158. yesindyref2 says:

    @colin alexander: “ I have contributed to Wings website in one form or another in 2015 or Tweeted to Wings Twitter in 2015

    No. As Brian Doonthetoon points out tweeting to twitter is not the same as posting to this forum, and on that previous thread you lied. Now you’re trying to wiggle out of it like an eel doing the conga, by trying to confuse tweeting on Twitter with posting on this forum. Away and wiggle yourself.

    I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15.

    Was a lie, man up and admit it. Or remain a lying dick.

  159. Breeks says:

    I would like to write to Peter Jackson and see if he wants to make another gritty trilogy along the lines of his Tolkien themes, but this time strive for historical accuracy.

    Film 1: Edward 1 appointing John Balliol. – A slow burner perhaps, (though Berwick might disagree), but setting the context and the stage for films 2 and 3.

    Film 2: Your “accurate” Braveheart – the miracle of Stirling Bridge and the tragedy of Falkirk.

    Film 3: The Bruce, Bannockburn and Declaration of Arbroath.

    The biggest thing that irritates me about Braveheart is the inaccuracy yes, but inaccurate because the truth of William Wallace was a much greater and more dramatic history which doesn’t require any Hollywood style embellishment, body paint or costume.

    Bit of a long shot to hope that Peter Jackson reads Wings… but I think he might do the justice, and the box office potential of a historically accurate bloody and dramatic trilogy could be absolutely tremendous. I say that as a Scot, but it’s top drawer history in the raw, and that has global reach.

    The Best Scottish film hasn’t been made yet, but the script has been around for 300 years.

  160. colin alexander says:


    If you want to make it the main website only, I can still win the bet. I’m not claiming my post was a below the line ( btl ) comment in 2015 but, it was my material that was posted on the main article about John Robertson MP.

    post: a piece of writing, image, or other item of content published online, typically on a blog or social media website or application.

    My material was published. Thus, it was my post, but incorporated into Stu’s article. He put the Ali intro on to it.

    So, agree to the bet and let Stu call the result. Or shut up with your false accusations.

  161. schrodingers cat says:

    most beautiful animation of edinburgh ever

  162. Thepnr says:

    @Colin Alexander

    “And I get apologies from you and Alex Clark / Thepnr”

    Sure you do Colin as soon as you show me evidence of a post from you on Wings from as you claimed 2014/15.

    Hahaha you can’t because no such thing exists. Your a lying twat.

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    @colin alexander
    No you lying dick, you said: “I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15.

    Well you haven’t, have you, you lying dick? And there is no bet, I don’t bet anyway, especially with lying dicks.

  164. Joemcg says:

    How good would Gerard Butler have been in the Wullie Wallace role?? Shame it came to early for him. I reckon Gibson would have cast him first. Pity.

  165. Still Positive says:

    When I was a learning support teacher in Bellahouston Academy in Glasgow in 1995/6 I was supporting an S1 class in Geography/History and Modern Studies. While I was in the History class, the teacher had had a unit explaining the Battle of Stirling Bridge amongst others explaining ‘Braveheart’.

    That was the first time I knew the true story of William Wallace.

    So if you are reading this Martin Lamb I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

  166. heedtracker says:

    Have they mentioned Robroy? Didn’t like it much but a book about him came out at the same time as the movie, fascinating about Highland life before the Clearances. The Highland’s are more or less dead now, but life in winter was pretty much like hibernation.

    Robroy himself must be one of most written about Highlanders and most, if not all of it, is romantic bollox. He’s also been incorporated by teamGB, ofcourse. One day we will not have that UK/ prefix before anything Scotland. And Robroy can rest easy:D

  167. heedtracker says:

    That was the first time I knew the true story of William Wallace.

    First I knew of Wallace was in St Machar’s Cathedral graveyard, spooky midwinter early evening as a kid. An old guy told us that they sent Wallace’s quartered bones out to all the cathedrals of Scotland, as a message. St Machar’s got his left arm and its meant to be cemented in to a wall.

  168. Lenny Hartley says:

    I first learned of Wallace (and Bruce) at Brodick Primary Skool , Scottish Country Dancing, Gaelic Singing and Scots History took up most of the curriculum . Thanks to Headmaster Jimmy Mathieson my interest in Scots History continues to this day. I wish Mr Mathieson (believe he might have been related to Karen Mathieson of Capercaillie fame) was with us today and he could see how much we have moved to Indy. When the Skool was used as a polling station, he used to fly the Satire from the flagpole on polling day 🙂

  169. galamcennalath says:

    The name Braveheart probably refers to James Douglas. His actions at the Battle of Teba, after which the Douglas coat of arms included a heart, may be the origin.,_Lord_of_Douglas

    James Douglas’s story would make a good epic movie.

  170. I don’t think Braveheart qualifies as Scottish per say. It’s a Hollywood movie about Scotland. Braveheart – Paramount Pictures/20th Century Fox partnership.

    Trainspotting on the other hand was produced by a Scot, and therefore qualifies as a Scottish film to my mind. Trainspotting – produced by Andrew MacDonald, screenplay by John Hodge. Shallow Grave too was funded by Film4. Is having a Scottish director enough for a film to qualify as Scottish?

    In any case, if you check all these films on Wikipedia, while they have substantial Scottish involvement, they are described as British or American. The upcoming Outlaw King for Netflix has a Scottish director, but again is classed as an American-British film.

  171. Still Positive says:

    Aye Lenny I remember it well the country dancing in the school hall.

    Some years ago ago my P6/7 teacher died aged 100. I couldn’t go to the funeral but I spoke to the minister and he was grateful for my input.

    She was a huge influence in my life. The most important was introducing me to the French language at the end of P7 in 1962.

  172. MJT says:


    Excellent post, which I hope gets more attention amidst the customary flies roond troll shite that pervades. I grew up watching Bergman; Fassbinder; Kusturica; Cassavettes and loads other writers/directors with unique voices, many of whom made films from smaller nations that made a big impression in world cinema. Be it Neorealism, New Wave, New German Cinema, i felt i was getting a view of that country, it’s dream life…it’s self image and relationship with itself. But the movies still spoke to me.

    We don’t get much of that, and you rightly touch on some valid reasons. I disagree that Douglas is our one world class cinematic artist, but i would say this, it’s hard to get a Scottish film made. We don’t have a sound stage, never mind an actual independent film industry. And we need more than one ‘strident’ voice. There’s plenty room.

    I wonder if we were independent, what films would we make? Would those funding applications find their way into the paws of mostly English middle class folks, who, through no fault of their own have little in the way of cultural empathy, never mind knowledge of our culture, be that street culture, working class culture, rural culture, East Coast as opposed to West Coast, borders as opposed to Highlands. From the specific, you still find the universal truths of life…but the details, the details…they’re ours

    Bergman shot a bunch of his movies on a tiny little island, and yet they are all universal. I doubt he’d get funding from Creative Scotland.

  173. liam says:

    Bugger (the Panda) says:
    26 December, 2017 at 11:05 am

    I much preferred Rob Roy to Braveheard.

    Me Too!

    Always struck me the Rob Roy’s (initial) ‘I’ve managed to piss off the English I’m off to the hills for a bit till they get over it,’ was a much more human, real reaction rather than Gibson’s steroidal nonsense. But they are different films for different audiences.

    My Favourite ‘Scottish’ film I’m sorry to say is the 1940 Powell and Pressberger romance “I Know Where I’m Going.”

  174. Alan says:

    @Grouse Beater

    And since when did the US Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences become experts in Scottish history? The film might have been great entertainment for some but it’s shite history.

    For an idea of just how bad it is read this analysis written by an historian of the first two minutes:

  175. David Caledonia says:

    There are about half a dozen contributors that i notice seem to resort to personal insults when disagreeing with someone

    There is one that used the word fanny, but he did not explain if i was an american fanny or a british one lol

  176. Alan says:

    Braveheart: bullshit won in the end.

    Independence must involve recovering Scottish history from British history and Hollywood ‘history’. Freedom is having your own history (warts and all); not a history bent to serve other people’s political and commercial purposes.

  177. Dr Jim says:

    For movies to be successful they have to sell, if they don’t sell then there is no story true or untrue
    If you want truth and history, that’s hard to find because everybody will have a different description of it and likely wouldn’t sell as a commercial film

    Movies are for commercial entertainment to make money like selling Mars Bars and the folk who make them are in the business of selling as much of the stuff as they can

    Star Wars is true and accurate though, Naw Naw Naw don’t say it, it is true and every bit of it is historical fact

    It is!!!

  178. Alba woman says:

    There is a beautiful book ‘The White Bird Passes’ by Jessie Kesson which tells the tale of a childhood in the North East of Scotland. I have yet to hear or see this book dramatised on radio or television.

  179. Ghillie says:

    Restless Natives =)

    And Local Hero.

    And Whisky Galore =)

    Looking forward to many many more to come in Independent Scotland =)

  180. Tackety Beets says:

    Whilst on Prim Sch tuition on Scotland’s History, I like many of my generation here ie Prim Sch in 60’s

    In west Aberdeenshire our teacher took us to the “hall” & he tuned into what I now assume was Radio Scotland circa 10.30 / 11 am , one day midweek possibly Wed ? It was introduced as “Educational Program” Can’t be sure
    This program narrated much about our history & to ensure we paid attention we would then be given a test with usually 20 Qs

    From what I recall it was quite factual & perhalps was the start of my “cult indoctrination” LOL

    Certainly by my early teens(late60s) I would tell anyone who would listen “Scotland needs to be Independent ” Truthfully this started when I read somewhere in the warehouses in Keith there was enough whiskey stored that we could clear the national debt………..Too Poor … @r$e !

    TBF the National debt then was only a drop in ocean compared to today.

  181. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Anent the teaching of Scottish History. I recall a member of the Oportunities In Retirement, Ayr, folk group, telling a meeting – the first time he learned any Scottish History, was when he became a fan of The Corries, whose songs told the tales better than the schools ever did.

  182. jfngw says:

    It’s strange how the BBC will describe a right wing group of people with dubious funding as an independent think tank. But a truly independent site as Wings, which is actually independent and funded by donation (apart from the Kremlin money obviously) will at best be described as controversial.

  183. Lenny Hartley says:

    Tackety Beets, I’m sure if you add the value of the Whisky to the Value of Whiskey , it would pay off a substantial amount of today’s debt 🙂
    Re Keith, had a few stair Heids in the morning there, particarly after the folk festival.

  184. Albert Herring says:

    @David Caledonia

    It was a Caledonian one, or maybe not.

  185. Undeadshuan says:

    I remember being taught about picts, kenneth Mcalpine, battle of the clans, james the v, disguising himself to see his kingdom, the gowrie plot, 1715 and 1745, highland clearances.

    There was also the iron age crannochs, of which there is a restored one on loch tay.

  186. stu mac says:

    Talking about history, what about losing our history?

    (BTW I recall getting “Tales” of Scottish History in primary school at quite a young age. Stirling Bridge, Robert Bruce and Bannockburn, Kate “Bar the Door”, Flodden, etc. Story-tale like but still Scotland’s history. Don’t recall much at secondary school. I wonder if there was a change after the 1950s when UK becoming a small wee nation and felt need to boost “Britishness”?)

  187. colin alexander says:


    That’s because the BBC definition for people here is “separatists”.

    Whereas those separatists, who wanted to separate the UK from the EU, are Leavers or Brexiteers, as they were, mainly, BritNat nationalists from the Tory Party and UKIP.

    Thus, the use of pejorative terms like separatist was strictly avoided.

  188. ScottieDog says:

    Indeed. It’s ‘independent’ science media centre is funded by the likes of glaxo smith Klein, BP, the daily mail and the UK government yet it rejected the findings of the British medical journal over the effects of austerity..

    So who is this mysterious ‘Science Media Centre’, which is so influential on the BBC that when it comes to science, its opinion trumps the British Medical Journal and both Oxford and Cambridge Universities?

    “Shockingly, it turns out the SMC is not independent at all. It is an organisation with a history of pushing corporate interests as well as anti-environmentalism, funded by industry and headed by a controversial genocide-denying journalist, Fiona Fox, who has no background in science and who was awarded an OBE by the Tories in 2013.”

    Well worth a read

  189. galamcennalath says:

    Fake Think Tanks are just another Establishment tool.

    So of course the BBC presents them as credible.

  190. Undeadshuan says:

    “a change after the 1950s ”

    I went to school in 60/70’s and was taught scottish history at school.

    So no change. Curriculem in secondary after 1st/2nd i had was more recent history, industrialisation, ww1, ww2,

    We were taught about lanark mills.

  191. starlaw says:

    I read a lot of Nigel Tranter books which were great stories based on Scottish History, between that, the local Library, Scots Magazine, and ten years of Jimmy McGregors Gathering on the then award winning Radio Scotland. I learned a great deal of Scottish History.
    Sadly BBC changed the entire format of Radio Scotland, after it won the Best Radio Programme Award.

  192. uno mas says:

    Tackety Beets 8.28am

    You wrote about there being enough bottles of whisky in storage to clear the national debt.

    Likewise you should stand beside a printing machine running Sra2 size sheets labels 16 on at approx 5K per hour on a double shift system of ti

    Do the math as the Americans say.

    In a previous life I worked in the printing industry and in fact I owe my apprenticeship served between 1968 and 1973 to White Horse Whisky.

    One of the jobs of the apprentices was to overprint the names of the various world wide distributors and to which we kept an atlas in the factory to see where all the bottles were going.

    Man i tell you there isn´t a corner of the planet that doesn´t drink Scotch.

    The advertising slogan of White Horse at that time (might still be) was “You Can Take a White Horse Anywhere”

    Well they got that right!

    The British Governmment claims that the sales of Scotch contributes 4billion to the national UK gdp.

    Aye and the rest!!

  193. galamcennalath says:

    stu mac says:

    I wonder if there was a change after the 1950s when UK becoming a small wee nation and felt need to boost “Britishness”?

    You make a good point there, though in my case I received teaching of Scottish history in the 60s.

    I think those who value ‘Britishness’ have felt the need to actively promote it when there is a threat of diminishing it. And let’s face it, the ‘Scottish threat’ has increased steadily since the 70s. So the pushing of all things ‘British’ has been actively pursued.

    ‘Britishness’ is always something which is promoted most in the non English parts of these isles. Which makes you wonder what, if any, the distinction between Britishness and Englisness is?

    In my experience, the English rarely mouth off about being British. It’s factions in Scotland and Ireland which do.

    A quick google search for North British reveals masses of references. A similar search for South British reveals nothing of consequence. QED.

    Also, there has never been any attempt to create or promote and cohesive all encompassing British history highlighting the different narratives and how they interact. Instead, the style has been to ignore non English history, or view it through English eyes.

    So many people say they have received no formal teaching of Scottish history. Sounds to me like that because a official subversive policy from the 70s. Perhaps the move was made in different councils at different times.

    Similarly, there has been discuss above of quality accurate history documentaries having been made in the past. Did this also stop as a ‘Britishness’ policy?

  194. Capella says:

    @ Alba woman – The White Bird Passes was dramatised by the BBC many years ago. It was an excellent production. It reminded my mother, who was brought up in Culter, of going with a group of Culter women as a child, to the woods outside town to see the Gypsy wifie. She had just had a baby and the women all took out presents for her.

    The gypsies used to camp in the woods near the Culter bridge where the statue of Rob Roy stands, ready to leap the gorge as the legend says.

  195. Simon Curran says:

    Don’t know if its the best Scottish film ever but I loved Stone of Destiny with Billy Boyd and Robert Carlyle, thought it was a great movie. Funny, well acted and unusually picking up on a genuine Scottish story where the Nationalists are the heroes!

  196. Capella says:

    @ Alba woman – Imdb entry for the White Bird Passes. doesn’t say of there is a DVD version available.
    Well worth getting if available if just for Jessie Kesson’s mother in Elgin Cathedral ruins singing Macpherson’s Fareweel.

  197. Iain mhor says:

    Good grief, how ironic Rock is absent.
    The font of all knowledge on who posted what, where and when.
    Step away from the mince pies Sir, put down the decanter, gird your smoking jacket, adjust your pince-nez, set a lucifer upon the old Meerschaum…
    Your time has come!

  198. Abulhaq says:

    There were two major historical paradigm shifts in the way Scots perceived themselves. The Protestant reformation and its possible consequence, the political union with England and the socio-cultural anglo-centric hegemony that arose from that union. The Union effectively needed a new history, a ‘tidier’ more linear one that suited the project. That is the politically corrected version we have largely inherited.
    My experience suggests Scots know little about the ‘untidy’ multifaceted history of their country. How many are aware that Southern Scotland was the cradle of a Brythonic culture which we only know of thanks to its appearance in Welsh literature?That Christianity didn’t reach Scotland via St Columba but was actually here already and that St Patrick may well have been a somewhat romanised Celtic Briton from the kingdom of Strath Clyde (Ystrad Clud)?
    As usual the devil is in the detail. Wallace or Wallas means Welshman ie foreigner which to the Inglis he certainly would be. We do not know too much about the guy but we definitely know that he didn’t do face painting, wear tartan or speak with a late 20th century Glasgow accent….and that’s only the beginning.

  199. Wullie B says:

    On the topic of good Scottish movies this one deserves a mentio.
    One Day Removals, about two inept Scots removal men, their day starts of shit and gets worse, the acting is poor but the film itself was hilarious in my opinion

    On the topic of Scottish education, I went to an island primary school in th eeighties and we got lots of Scots history lessons, from the Picts, Dun Carloway, The Vikings to the clearances, the books used were maybe 30 pages for each topic, but they werefilled with loads of interesting stuff and our teacher an older lady from Kirkaldy was a great teacher, but when she retired when I was in Primary 5 the teaching of Scots history changed to Brit history, WWII,the Empire and such with mentions of Scottish endeavours severely limited

    On the Colin A thing, is he the Rock as the two never appear in the same conversation, or was he otherwise named when he supposedly posted here before, I remember the name suddenly appearing on Wings circa 2016, but other supporters of the union also left at that time, cant remember the main one but think his name wasa Dave something

  200. Fred says:

    anant the Crannogs, one found in Glasgow in the Bishop Loch & another excavated at Drumpellier Loch nearby!

  201. Robert Peffers says:

    @Liz g says: 26 December, 2017 at 2:51 pm:

    “Just on the off chance you didn’t know!
    Tea and Coffee can be irritating to the Bladder so make sure you are using decaf,otherwise you could be cancelling out the effects of drinking water.”

    Thanks, Liz g – as it happens I knew those facts as this has not been an isolated incident. However, both tea and coffee are diuretics and thus help the tea/coffee drinker to pee.

    “My mum also in her 80s had the same thing and while the antibiotics knocked it back for a while, it returned with a vengeance making her quite ill”

    Won’t be the same as your Mum’s problem as part of the problem is I have an enlarged prostrate and your Mum won’t have that complication.

    The prostrate problem is well under control and I don’t have a poor immunity system. However, if I catch any form of cold or Flu style kind of thing it seems to negate the medications for the prostrate problem. It is as if the pills suddenly have absolutely no effect until my body starts to fight back against the infection.

    I’m glad to say that the fight back has now started and I’m a little better already. Seems a common cold takes around three days to strike after you get infected and it takes around another three days for the body to get started it’s fight back.

    “Mind and do the odd wee post though so we don’t worry!”

    Will do. One of my lads, who lurks on Wings but doesn’t comment, has told me my link to the 39 steps was very poor quality. So I’ve just started to see what I can do about it. I didn’t post my own copy of the film but just picked one on YouTube at random.

    I had a wee sleekit motive in posting the link. The version was that of Englishman Sir Alfred Joseph Hitchcock, KBE.

    Now while the scenery was obviously well appreciated by him his depictions of the Scots in the film were very typical many English upper-class twits.

    Note some of the old Scottish actors, such as John Lawrie, are featured therein. Lawrie made a whole, very long, career playing what English twits believe to be a typical Scot.

    Hitchcock also used Dame Peggy Ashcroft in the film but Hitchcock’s ideas of the typical Scot were/are quite typical within his age group and social strata.

    When I check through my copy of the film I will post a link to it on my own YouTube Channel. My lad tells me the quality of the scenery in the random clip I posted was quite drastically bad.

  202. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 10:51,

    Well, maybe your ma knew my ma. =grin=

    I remember once as a wee thing being taken to the circus there. I wonder if that was the same people, or a different lot.

    As to Rob Roy, one of the most fanciful and unlikely legends of (many of) the man. Totally daft but in a nice way. The original statue (since replaced multiple times) was a redundant ship’s figurehead, I believe. As for the leap over the Culter Burn there, it might just be possible…
    … with a jet pack strapped to the back. =laugh=

  203. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    I used to have a problem with pains in the “exit points” of my anatomy, sharp biting pains like a pair of pliers, until I tracked it down to added antioxidants. I found white cap was fine, whereas Templetons / Safeway lard with added antioxidant gave me the problem. Similar for pork pies, pure melton mowbray are fine, whereas pork farm pies are risky. Also for Typhoo bad, whereas Safeway / Morrisons plain red label good.

    Something to look at perhaps – added antioxidants. E numbers can be safe but also can be very nasty for some people. One of the benefits of chemical food.

  204. Capella says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland – the Rob Roy tradition is intriguing. But if he jumped from the ledge the statue sits on he would have broken both his legs.

    Maybe the circus travellers were connected. But when my mother went to see the gypsy wifie’s baby it must have been in the mid 1920s and was probably the McPhees.

  205. Alba woman says:


    Thank you for the link to the White Bird Passes….will watch it and smile.

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