How the Scottish media works
Our poll story yesterday was a pretty interesting piece of politics news considering it’s the Christmas dead season. We put an interesting new angle on the independence question, and posted all the poll data so that reporters had plenty to get their teeth into. And we released it at lunchtime so they had plenty of time to get it into today’s editions.
Remarkably, though, none of the Scottish media – with the honourable exception of The National, who made it their front page splash – thought that the best numbers for independence in many months merited even a dismissive passing mention. Scotland’s political hacks doggedly ignored it on social media. And then things got weird.
The tweet above appeared briefly – having been posted at 11.44am it was gone by no later than 12.10pm – on the Twitter account of the Herald. The story it linked to cannot be found through the paper’s website, though it’s still hidden away on the servers.
(Its sister paper the Evening Times carried the story, then outright deleted it.)
And the reason why provides a fascinating insight into how the press operates.
Because if you search for that headline, you get a LOT of results.
Because a Scottish opinion poll that isn’t news to the Herald apparently IS interesting to the readers of the Droitwich Advertiser, the Basingstoke Gazette and the Croydon Guardian. (And the Dorset Echo, the Harrow Times and Chard And Ilminster News.)
(And the Oxford Mail, the Wirral Globe, the St Helens Star, the Wharfedale Observer, St Albans Review, the Cotswold Journal and the Harwich & Manningtree Standard.)
What’s plainly happened is that the Press Association – whose byline appears on most of the almost-identically-worded articles – has picked the story up, probably from The National, and put it out on the wires, where papers have automatically processed it and run it on their sites.
That, of course, isn’t especially remarkable. That’s how the modern media keeps up a stream of content despite sacking great swathes of journalists. What’s remarkable is that it got into the Herald, where it was actually appropriate to the readership, and then the Herald actively concealed it.
That’s real determination to keep some interesting news away from Scots. Readers might be forgiven for wondering why a newspaper would want to do such a thing.
Do you remember when the new Herald editor claimed they would now be impartial? Ah, how we all laughed!
If this does not make you F’in raging, then you have not been paying attention.
SNAFU – but it doesn’t alter the facts of the poll. All Indy groups that aren’t already doing it should start unofficial campaigning asap after the Xmas shenanigans.
Sibling rivalry; they both belong to the same owner but the Herald is losing readers while the National is gaining
It’s well seen that you are a man of the ‘Cloth’ for no other person would have such faith in the yoon media but nice try. At least we have faith in you.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
Tom Gordon must have freaked out!
Lol 🙂
Is it still running on the National or does the Herald rule the website?
What’s weird is 75% of Herald readership supported Independence. Not sure how much is left if it. All it is is full adverts.
Only ‘proper’ journalists can lead the news. Unless and until the Rev is outed as a homicidal, transgender, Nazi-memorabilia-collecting, six-times-married mother with a fake beard and 18 kids of different races all scrounging benefits then forget it! No news coverage for you!
I think this demonstrates beautifully that the Herald is a political blog with views entrenched as any political blog and is not a newspaper.
I find this strangely comforting 🙂
Some of those identically worded articles have identical comments on them too!
Hoss Macintosh: link to thenational.scot
I’ve looked on the BBC Scotland web site and, the stv web site and couldn’t find any reference to the poll. Buff said.
The Groaniard hasn’t covered it yet either but as well Severin being rabidly partisan the Groan is also the coo’s tail when it comes to picking stuff up.
O Gymru.
From Wales: As a follow up.
Welsh language media has presented this here:
link to golwg360.cymru
half in favour independence
half against independence
Essentially, it’s a translation of the MSM/PA report other than the omission of the SNP spokesman’s comments on the poll.
However, this is added at the end of the report (and does not feature in the MSM/PA account):
Roedd 52% o’r bobl a aned yn yr Alban o blaid annibyniaeth o gymharu â 48% yn erbyn, ond roedd mwyafrif clir o’r rhai a aned yn Lloegr yn erbyn – 72% o gymharu â 28%.
___
52% of people born in Scotland were in favour of independence compared to 48% against, but there was a clear majority of those born in England against – 72% compared to 28%.
[Translation mine.]
Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Newspapers now equip their staff with a shovel rather than a pen, with which they learn to bury bad news. They have become not just the undertakers of democracy,but in time, the funeral home of Unionism.
The only news you’ll ever see in a Scottish newspaper is news about something totally irrelevant and unimportant to anybody so it can be almost factually reported, everything else is opinion
So we don’t have newspapers we have column after column of opinion masquerading as news in exactly the same way as the broadcast media fill up the airwaves with the same people who write their opinions in the opinion papers so the broadcast media can distance themselves from any complaints of accuracy by claiming they never reported the incident you might complain about because it was a guest and they can’t be responsible for what a guest says because it’s their opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the broacaster
In this way broacasters have carte blanche to use press “journalists” or “experts” to opine on whatever subject the broadcaster wants them to without taking the responsibility for what they say
Certain obvious uses of this tactic are “Let’s just call it Devo Max” Jackie Burd to Alistair Darling, who then confirms that’s defo what he means, so everybody says he said it but it was really the BBC who put the words in his mouth so he’s the one held responsible
Except in Scotland we sussed that out sharpish and that’s why forevermore Jackie Burd and the BBC will never ever in and after their lifetime be forgiven for anything
Ignoring Scottish news is nothing new for the North British Greater England media.
However, here we see something quite different. This has been a conscious politician decision to manually remove a significant and relevant story (which had been placed automatically). This move has been a blantant attempt to undermine and subvert democracy.
I’m not surprised at the action, but perhaps a bit taken aback at the brazenness.
Forget the spirit of Xmas, the spirit of McCrone is alive and well in the msm.
Glad I read a quality newspaper that supports Scottish independence…..no chance of missing
Well at least the level of support for Scottish Independence won’t now come as a shock to the English shires when Indyref 2 is announced. Lol.
Otherwise known as censorship
That’s made my afternoon!
The Herald’s decline to partisan rag is actually tragic.
Posted this on Daily Record facebook site..
See how long it lasts …
……
Why is the Daily Record utterly ignoring a huge story about support for independence in a poll which shows HALF of Scots back an indy Scotland within the EU ?
Considering the Yes campaign has not even started yet and an indyref has not even been called yet, this is massive news.
A cynic would reasonably believe that the Daily Record is deliberately suppressing this poll result…!
Every regional local paper in all parts of the uk are showing this story online, EXCEPT IN SCOTLAND and ABSOLUTELY NOT in ANY of the bigger papers here.
How telling is the fact that The Herald tweeted it (one tweet) for around 26 minutes then ALL TRACE of it was removed.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
So again, WHY IS THE DAILY RECORD SUPPRESSING A MASSIVE NEWS STORY ?
WHY IS THE DAILY RECORD AFRAID OF SCOTS HEARING ABOUT THIS POLL RESULT ?
Dinosaurs Of an old Media age, They fail to grasp the Reality,That Social media has left them in the past, We are the age of News,We print what the Cannot Hide, if it’s out there we find it and Expose it
Quick ot..
Madrid 0 Barcelona 3
Not a good week for Madrid, very symbolic victory surely !
The evasion and concealing of such data is a clear act of bias on a disgraceful scale. You would think they were connected to the bbc
[…] Wings Over Scotland How the Scottish media works Our poll story yesterday was a pretty interesting piece of politics news considering […]
Sorry for going o/t Barcelona 3 Real Madrid 0 Those Damn Catalonians Ha ha
As I have said before, a lot of people just read the first few lines.
Make your view at the start, if you require to give more facts to justify your point do it later down, if people are interested they will read on.
Now you try it yourself.
Do you think the Vow was delivered, do you think the ship promise was delivered, do you believe we are about to run out of oil, the list goes on.
Did you read all of this YES or no.
Vote YES next time.
Herald no more !
Hope the Editor & staff get the ‘Christmas they deserve’.
Agents of the UK state IMHO
@ geeo says
A : ‘Murray Foote’ 🙂
What I find really worrying is that all these newspapers and the press association found it important to mention the sizeable portion of people polled who gave no opinion and yet when I drew attention to this in wings report “anybody’s game” and “a Christmas presence” of 22nd Dec and 23rd Dec
the only comments I got were along the lines that it was irrelevant but the people who did not give an opinion in that poll were those born in England and the question they would not answer when asked is if they would vote yes or no to Scottish independence if we leave EU
I pointed out that clearly these people are English born brexiteers who will vote NO in a Scottish independence referendum .
English born remainers gave their opinion.
I would say that there are zero English born brexiteers who live in Scotland and would vote yes to Scottish independence
Come on Scottish people there is nothing racist about determining who should have a vote in determining your country,s independence it is not racist to say that people who’s nationality is that of the country from whom you seek independence should not get a vote it is common sense and fairness especially when that country you seek to be independent from has ten times the population of your own country and especially when nearly a million of them have come here to work and are very likely to return to their own country at some time .
Rhe response I often get is that if we don’t let English people who live in Scotland vote on Scottish independence from England we should let Scottish people who have left Scotland to live in England and other countries have a vote on Scottish independence but I counter that by saying that if you decide to leave your country and go live somewhere else you lose the right to determine how Scotlands future should be.
Of course English people living in Scotland should be allowed to vote in all other elections but not the constitutional future of Scotland.
And of course Scottish people who have left Scotland to live in other countries will also have the right to vote in elections other than constitutional ones.
And this suppression of the news is before the Herald get their share of the £8 Million per annum worth of BBC Regional News Political Commissars.
Herald going with the BritNat tried and trusted “keep them ignorant” routine.
OT but I may have missed this in the Newspapers and Broadcasters available in Scotland.
Here it is,wonderful news at Christmas,a time of Goodwill. 🙂
TALKING-UP SCOTLAND 23rd December 2017:
“Scotland first again, banning use of wild animals in travelling circuses”
“Goodwill to all livingkind.” 🙂
link to tinyurl.com
Terence callachan
Of course English people living in Scotland should be allowed to vote in all other elections but not the constitutional future of Scotland.
Wise up man – or do you really want to give every media outlet another opportunity to jump gleefully on the ‘blood and soil’ bandwagon?
Scotland’s future will be decided by the people who choose to live here and make their future here, no-one else.
What other country in the the world would allow Incomers to vote on the future of their country???ii. I mean it is not fair to the people who were born and live in Scotland for Incomers to have a vote on their future and well being because the truth is it is not the Incomers country I have written to the SNP about my concerns over this matter and also about the fraud of postal votes I mean the English were quick enough to bring in Evel so only they decide on English matters well ref.,2 will be a Scottish matter so only Scots should have a vote in it no one else I stress again only those who were born and live in Scotland
How will Rock interpret the Heralds coverage versus Nationals coverage?
26 minutes then redact versus high visibility front page.
His heid will be fair durlin’
Interesting wee “insight” there on how the unionist press in Scotland works … sort of!
I’ll bet all the unionists,darn surf, are spitting their tea all over their local papers after reading aboutb this poll result. 😀
No matter what the Herald “claims” to be I think WE all know that it is STILL a unionist leaning paper and as such to see such an article about the new 49% is, shall we say, a wee bit surprising even for the short period of time it was “available.”
I have to say though that what the Herald does, or does not print, doesn’t really concern me. I get my news from the National and a website known to only a few die hard cybernats of which I count myself rightly or wrongly as one such individual. I am refering to a site called Wings over Scotland …for those not numbered amongst the die hard cybernats. 😀
`Through a joint working agreement between the BBC and the News Media Association, the partnership will create 150 new journalism jobs, establish a shared data journalism unit and offer the regional media access to BBC news video and audio material.`
The BBC are giving £8,000,000 every year (guaranteed over 11 years) to newspaper groups to employ 150 journalists across the UK,
that works out about £54,000 per year for each journalist,
there are 700 local newspaper/online across UK signed up to accept BBC State controlled journalism,
Scotland has 21 of these journalists which is nearly double the population share,should be 12,
Newsquest,who own the Herald get 37 of the 150 BBC Local Democracy Reporter allocation,which is nearly £2,000,000 in Newsquest`s pocket each year for the next 11 years,
thats a lot of money,and a lot of money means a lot of influence,
This is the Big UK State Astoturfing through the BBC to influence supposed Local news.
link to tinyurl.com
Propaganda isn’t defined by what is published but also by what is not published.
The deliberate erasure of this story by the The Herald confirms for those with any remaining shreds of doubt, that it operates first and foremost as an unofficial but willing propaganda tool on behalf of the extremists inside the British Government.
As long as its American corporate owners continue to subsidize this loss making title, it will continue to champion football hooliganism, sectarianism, racism, bigotry & inequality because that’s the only tactic they have left in order to subvert the SNP & the support for sustaining a devolved Scottish Government.
Ghastly. But its what they do.
BBC r4 Today show this morn, right at peak time just before 8am, r4 beeb gimp simpers out, “Guido Fox politics blogger, blogged results of his survey on which MP swears the most social media…” And at no.2, Guido Fox says it Angus Macneil SNP MP.
The fact that the beeb r4 Today show gimps even mentioned anything SNP at all was a shock, they never normally report anything at all about Scotland, but why oh why would those beeb r4 reprobates give a giant peak time boost to, whoever the toryboy twerp Guido Fox is, peak time BBC r4 Today show audience, 7+ million.
The day when the words “Wings over Scotland” is heard on the BBC r4 gimp network, you’ll know the revolution hasn’t just begun but that the beeb toryboys have also legged it:D
I’m guessing that despite their best efforts over many years support for Ind has remained high and went higher with Brexit, that upsets them mightily.
I was born in England,and have spent half my life in Scotland and have been an advocate for Indy since my teens – I’m now heading quickly towards 50. Much more of this “the vote should only be open to those born in Scotland” and my lifelong support will be gone. It’s distressing to read this crap. Really upsetting. I thought I was welcome. I’ve worked passionately for Indy since 2013. All you people saying Scottish born only can fuck right off. So much for civic nationalism, and you can’t even see it, when anyone pulls you up on it, it’s all “well I don’t see the problem”.
“All you people saying Scottish born only can fuck right off”
Agreed. Residential franchise might make things harder for us, but it’s the right thing to do.
Blair Paterson says:
23 December, 2017 at 2:29 pm
What other country in the the world would allow Incomers to vote on the future of their country???
erm well, let me see . . . pretty much any country that allows people to become citizens when they fulfill certain criteria of residence. The UK being one country that springs to mind, the USA another.
Difficult for us, as there is no such thing as a Scots citizen. However, I don’t see this as insoluble – a simple time/residence qualification should be adequate. Birth as the sole criterion OTOH is totally and wholly inappropriate.
And – compounded stupidity in your comments – every vote in any election is a vote on the future of the country. A vote in the Holyrood elections for example, where the choice is very much Unionist or Otherwise. Going to stop that as well?
I for one am getting very fed up with this onslaught of false flag blood and soil trolls on here.
Awa an’ bile yer heid, man
Welsh sion. Pob dim saesneg pleidleisio yn a”””holes.lol
For Geeo 1.51 pm and Michael McCabe 1.57 pm.
That should read:
LATEST SCORE.
Madrid 0 Barcelona 3 (Rajoy o.g. 3)
Mottie reports: A splendid hat trick there with his head (nothing in it) as opposed to his foot (which is permanently lodged in his mouth) from star Madrid striker Marjano Rajoy (currently on-loan from Better Together FC).
Bobp @ 2.52
Good try – but please do not use Google Translate. Use me instead … a native speaker translator linguist in Welsh, next time.
🙂 🙂
Enjoy the holidays.
Welsh sion ??
O/T
The English Daily Mail has an unbelievably hysterical story on its front page regarding the UK passport returning to the colour blue.
T May tweeted- ” The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty symbolising our citizenship of a proud great nation.
Rabid nationalism English style therefor acceptable.
Bobp, apologies if you did not use Google Translate but your “Welsh” sentence made no sense to me. As I said, my professional job (outstanding for campaigning for independence for both our countries, being a Member of both National Parties) is as a translator into and from Welsh.
Best wishes,
I’m starting to wish we didn’t have information on the place of birth and voting.
I’m Scottish by accident. People who move here are Scottish by choice. I don’t discriminate between the two.
This might not be popular but I wouldn’t want to start off by banning people just because of where they happened to be born. I’d rather be inclusive and lose again than exclude people for something that they couldn’t help and had no say in.
Of course I’d much rather not lose again.
As one pro independence English man said to me. I vote for Scots independence for it is the right choice. I am no less English as a result anymore than my cousins are less Australian American or Irish.
Fair enough.
I’m with Giesabrek up at the start of this thread. I also seem to recall a Herald leader article on the eve of IR14 saying “no, not yet” but adding the assurance that its stance would change in the event that our autonomy wasn’t respected. (A kind of weak echo of Rowling’s absurd domestic analogy.)
Well, with Brexit looming, what happened, Herald? Still waiting until the deluge finally overtakes us all?
Someone should repost that leader and shame the [un-Christmassy term] who wrote it.
Excellent work, Stu.
This highlights the problem of extreme media bias that was clearly influential in 2014 and since which the SNP have done nothing to discredit these purveyors of unionist propaganda.
Indeed, many leading SNP politicians write for, or willingly, give interviews etc to these enemies of not only independence, but Scottish democracy itself.
This was a battle any enemy that should have been fought over 10 years ago. Instead, that enemy remains strong and a threat to democracy and Scottish independence.
If EU citizens are allowed to vote. The Indy Ref 2 will be won. A two/three year registration would exclude students passing through. If they are registered to vote elsewhere they should not even be voting. Same with second home owners.
They dont wont half of Scotlands voters turning to 60 %
O/t.having a couple of bottles of Estrella to celebrate Barcas win.
The Herald and the Scotsman. The very best of the North British breed. I wonder who is keeping them afloat….no, not really!
May their end come swiftly.
Welsh sion. That post should have been two crestfallen emoji faces, but for some reason they show up as question marks on my Samsung phone. Lol merry crimbo.
Michael McCabe says:
23 December, 2017 at 1:57 pm
Sorry for going o/t Barcelona 3 Real Madrid 0 Those Damn Catalonians Ha ha
geeo says:
23 December, 2017 at 1:51 pm
Quick ot..
Madrid 0 Barcelona 3
Not a good week for Madrid, very symbolic victory surely !
Seems to be a common occurence then, Madrid got humped by a small Catalonian team the day after the referendum, Puiemonts local team and Rajoys team, quite funny really
Ken500. 4.27pm. Agree,that is the sensible option.
Perhaps The Herald are saving it until tomorrow when it will be splashed all over the front page!
I’m feeling rather confident about 2018…..best wishes to all at the festive season…………and onward and beyond.
The real work beckons……let’s all get behind indi.
Hamish100 3.51pm. He’s wan o the guid yins
For the majority visiting this site I’m sure that the attempt to keep the ignorant as ignorant as possible has not escaped their attention.
This is “Scotland’s” media inaction. You will NEVER read anything positive relating to Independence in any mainstream “Scottish” newspaper, nor from BBC “Scotland” nor from “Scotland” Television.
All are in it together and believe in Better Together. If you want to know the political truth then look elsewhere. The only saving grace is that for the falsehood SNP Baaadd stories and the obvious ommisions then more are staring to notice.
Just wait until the misreporting of Brexit starts as in May’s victory over the EU bullshit becomes clearer. More and more will start to question these sources of news.
“Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me”
What beer from Spain should we use to celebrate YES campaign and win in 2018.
wull2 says:
Estella, of course. Barcelona’s best. 🙂
@me Estrella, that should have been
Once upon a time in a galaxy far away, certain journalists had some integrity with a very small I.
It seems the “norm” nowadays is “gutter press” on epic scales that was once accepted in the “comedy news” papers, Daily Sport, News of the Screws e.t.c
I no longer buy any papers, there’s non worth buying, if I need factual sources I look at WoS, world news sites e.t.c even the “Indy” National, although not in the same gutter as the rest, is still a far cry from say the quality of the Hootsman 20+ years ago IMHO, but the National is a million times better than the Hoots at the present time.
Car salesmen, Timeshare salesmen e.t.c used to get the title of being the scum of the earth, journalists now have that title well and truly sewn up.
What do you call 10,000 journalists lying at the bottom of the ocean?
Answer,
Sea pollution on an epic scale.
Bobp@4.46
Where do you buy your Estrella?
All suggestions welcome, It will be used is to wash down my Scottish dram. Thanks.
Naw! Rev Stu, I didn’t wonder that the totally terrified and absolutely dishonest, laughably titled, Scottish media journalists either didn’t say or publish a word about the matter – because I know exactly what they are up too.
In other industries their actions would be assumed to be suicidal or at very least self-harming but these whingers, (as opposed to Wingers), are basically all that remains of a once proud Scottish institution.
ATM: Reports of their imminent decease are just slightly exaggerated, they are, though, very much like the walking dead these – Scottish Zombie media, (cough!), journalists. (and yes they do eat human brains but only if the donor has donated the brain willingly). They do, however, attempt to wash the donated brain first. They are, at least, good at that particular task – unfortunately.
Wull2@5.47
Celebrating Ramadram?, sorry can’t take credit for it, I heard it on Shortbread last week I think.
Great word though.
Gary 45%. 4 pint bottles for £6 in asda Bournemouth.
Dont.like shopping at asda. But get my beer there.
I wouldn’t want to be in Tom Gordon’s, et al, shoes when we get our Independence. Millions of Scots will be absolutely raging when they find out that so-called Scottish newspapers / reporters have been lying to / suppressing crucial information from them over many decades now.
And what can we do about the downside to the recent polling results? Do about the 72% of English people now living in Scotland who seemingly won’t ever vote for Independence? Many it would seem are elderly, retired, home owners who are comfortably off. I doubt telling them that their state pension (paid by Westminster) will rise in an Independent Scotland would influence them at all. The UK pulling out of Europe wouldn’t bother them one whit either, imo.
Many of these relocators have been attracted here by our superior NHS / Social Care system. What could sway them is a wee reminder of their English NHS having been abolished in 2012 with the ultimate Westminster objective of 100% privatisation. Brexit opens the door to TTIP Trump. Continued austerity cuts (and the Withdrawal Bill) to Scotland threatens our NHS. Placards and posters strategically positioned in villages / towns with something along the lines of ‘ENGLISH NHS ABOLISHED IN 2012. PROTECT SCOTLAND’S NHS BY VOTING FOR INDEPENDENCE’ may generate discussion and get them thinking.
As to the postal vote issue, someone? posted an interesting suggestion on here recently which related to an electoral form used in Northern Ireland. It looked as though it could slash the 20% Scottish posting voting figures to around less than 3%. If they don’t post it, the form, again in response to this I’ll try and dig it out later.
Add to that Exit Polls, International observers, ban on holiday home owners voting and the Polish Media monitoring team clamping right down on the Gordon’s, Clegg’s and Chrichton’s of Scotland and we’ll be home and dry folks. Next year X
Just time to nip down to the Coop for a bottle of Cava brut for Xmas fizz. Made in Barcelona. First Estrella then Cava and a dram as a nightcap. Covers all the bases
It’s very interesting reading through the comments on this poll in the Scotsmans article.
The unionists are incandescent! It must be worth the poll fees alone to get them so worked up?
My YES sign has been up since June and despite council enquiries following complaints from unionist councillors and calls from both the roads and planning departments, it’s not coming down any time soon!
Well done Rev and a merry Christmas to all on Wings.
@ Welsh Sion
Thanks for you link to the Golwg360 report on the survey re Scottish Indy.
Dach chi wedi gweld y sylwad o “trefjon1” ar waelod y tudalen, lle mae o’n dweud :
“I’ve just looked up the Panelbase company. This was not a normal opinion poll, but rather a survey where everyone who took part was paid £10. It is arguable therefore that this destroys the credibility of your story and (raises) the possibility that the figures are correct, rather common sense suggests that the sample would not be representative of the population as a whole. ‘Fake news’ then Golwg?”
[My trans. of a comment to the Welsh article]
Re Catalonia – looks like Rajoy is pretending that Ciudadamos won the election. As in Scotland, the losers are the winners.
But who are Ciudadanos? Craig Murray has a recent post describing them as an astro-turf organisation set up by the German intelligence service to frustrate Catalonian independence. In other words, Francoist.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Jockanese Wind Talker,
“How will Rock interpret the Heralds coverage versus Nationals coverage?”
Don’t you think that The National has been shamed into taking a bold pro independence stand for once due to my comments on this blog?
Rock (17th December – “Please think of the millionaires”):
“WOS readers know all about the lying unionist media.
But what about the rest of the population?
Surely the one and only “independence supporting” The National has to have this article as front page headline news tomorrow?
I trust The National’s numerous agents here will get the message through to headquarters.”
This is the bias that blockhead Leask (far too vehemently) denies.
Another Welsh commentator, ‘CGT’ has added :
“… Nicola Sturgeon needs to shove Europe into the background and push for independence, come what may. My own concern is that there’s a section of the population who would back independence just so long as England (along with Scotland) was also in Europe, but who would be less supportive of the idea of an Indy Scotland having a hard border with England.
It would be interesting to know how exactly Scottish goods are exported — do they have to go down to Felixstowe, or can they be sent from Leith or Aberdeen?”
Rock @ 18:43,
I don’t know how to put this kindly (bein’ Christmas an’ all), but no-one is paying attention to what you are (or were) saying. Not so long as you remain a relentless negative bore, anyways.
Moan all the time and you moan alone. Wise up, fella.
Don’t you think that The National has been shamed into taking a bold pro independence stand for once due to my comments on this blog?
Rock, you are Monica Lennon and I claim my fiver 😀
Do we have any information on The National trying to do deals with , for example, the coffee chains?
When I go into Caffe Nero it has single free copies of the Daily Express and the “i” and multiple copies of The Times for sale. I’m sure that any sales pitch could involve some gentle point about the current poverty of Scottish coverage.
Bobp@5.57
Cheers, I have boycotted Asda since 2014.
Will try and source somewhere else.
K.A.Mylchreest @ 6.48pm
I will say it again, it is now time to start building an infrustructure in the underused docks of Dundee to handle a large number of containers. It’s a forward looking SNP council in Dundee and with SG help a basic facility should easily be possible.
Likewise we need to be studying how we can increase international air services. Prestwick belongs to the taxpayer and has the potential of the ground links.
Lastly we need to be planning the border facilities which we will need. The plan to charge trucks a toll for road use should be enough to ensure that we have basic lorryparks and inspection sheds. (Initially to record the mileage of trucks entering and leaving Scotland) We will have to have the infrastructure to keep out the chlorine chicken and the hormone beef.
It’s no good waiting til a campaign has started, along with facilities such as an investment bank we must be able to show the doubters that infrastructure either exists or can be realised at short notice. We should not need to export via Felixstowe or Southampton. We should not need to travel via Dover or Heathrow.
Scotland needs the strategic groundwork started now, is it a risk, well of course it is. But if we believe it can be done it will be done.
They saw it. They reported it. They read it. They didn’t like it. They deleted it.
In response to terence collation, and an inappropriate rude response to him from ScotsRenewables: If I, as an adult, had moved to live in Catalonia, for economic advantage, climate or whatever, I would not have voted in the Catalan referendums.I consider it the exclusive right of the Catalonians to determine the political destiny of their country.If I had raised children born in Catalonia then I would consider it the duty of my Catalonian children to vote in the referendums.
In the Scotland context, I find the concept offensive of retirees from England, cashing in on their inflated house prices moving to Scotland, enjoying the NHS, free prescriptions etc etc, and then declaring that they wish to stay in the UK union. And I find it exasperating that such people cannot visualise that by declaring a preference to stay in the UK union the very social conditions in England they chose to leave behind by choice, to move to Scotland, will follow them to Scotland if we do not gain independence.
And to close, Scotland embraces multi-culturism, and emigrants should embrace Scottish social values.Welcome all.
Now THAT’S journalism.
Very good Rev.
Don’t you just love the truth?
Merry Xmas Wings
Hi Ken500 at 4:27 pm.
You typed,
“A two/three year registration would exclude students passing through. If they are registered to vote elsewhere they should not even be voting.”
I guess most of the students from outwith Scotland are at Uni, in which case they will be on a traditional Scottish 4 year degree course. Therefore, a “two/three year registration” would only exclude ‘fresher’ students, ie those in years 1,2 and, possibly 3.
Furthermore, medical students do a 5 year degree course, followed by 2 years ‘on-the-job’, before they qualify as doctors. I know from my own place of work, that many of the medical students are from outwith Scotland – and from all over the world, including England.
IMHO, a 5 year residential qualification for an independence referendum is reasonable. For other ‘ordinary’ votes, it could be as it is now.
@Moonlight
Ref to prestwick, also worth noting that a lot of transatlantic flights use Scottish airspace and it hosts some of the entry points of the North Atlantic Track System
Just because some folk use the word “English” that doesn’t mean they’re anti people, and some other folk need to be a little less sensitive over worrying that it’s somehow causing some offense by talking about a nationality, we talk about loads of nationalities all the time, everybody does, we talk about the Russians, do we hate all the Russians? of course we don’t, we don’t know them all
Just because you want Scottish independence doesn’t automatically mean saying the word “English” is somehow meant as and insult to English folk, it’s just a geographical description like saying Paisley (who are not all buddies btw) or Arbroath (who are not all smokies btw) or even Scotland, who funnily enough are not all Scots
If no offense to all was intended then none by all should be taken
“IMHO, a 5 year residential qualification for an independence referendum is reasonable. For other ‘ordinary’ votes, it could be as it is now.”
Probably we shouldn’t get too hung up on this sort of thing. But if people have ‘previous’ in Scotland then maybe they should be able to count 2/3 years of this towards the 5.
As for postal votes, maybe it isna practical to count everything in Achiltibuie Village Hall or The Bothy at Rhynie, but there should be some sort of statement of good practice to the effect that voting forms should be moved as little as possible ahead of polling day.
Hi Moonlight at 7:16 pm.
You mentioned,
“I will say it again, it is now time to start building an infrustructure in the underused docks of Dundee to handle a large number of containers. It’s a forward looking SNP council in Dundee and with SG help a basic facility should easily be possible.”
The Port of Dundee is owned by Forth Ports. Here’s a quotation from the following link:
The port is strategically located on the east coast of Scotland, midway between Aberdeen and the central belt, and lies on the north side of the sheltered Firth of Tay. The port has the capacity to handle a wide range of bulk, agricultural and forest products. It is Scotland’s main agricultural hub with over 250,000 tonnes of agricultural products moving through the port annually.
The port provides inspection, repair and maintenance of jackup and semisubmersible drilling rigs and support vessels for the North Sea oil and gas industry. It is also home to Swedish giant Nynas, the world-leading manufacturer of specialty oils and bitumen products.
The port has an extensive range of facilities:
Storage areas
Warehousing
150,000 tonnes of dedicated cereal shed storage capability
Deepwater berths
Heavy lift quaysides
Development land
24 hour access
Six working berths
1600m of quayside
No beam or air draft restrictions
The Port is investing in a £10million to create a new quayside with an industry-leading “heavy lift” capability, coupled with a significant onshore operational area at the port. The new quayside will add both berthing and land capacity at the east side of the port and will represent a significant increase in port capacity in the North East region. The construction process is underway with the quayside expected to be ready at the end of 2017. When opened the quayside will be 200m longer than currently and will be one of the strongest quaysides in Scotland with an ultra-heavy lift pad at one end. The quayside will have a strength capability of 80 tonnes per square metre.
The port has been identified as one of Scotland’s top locations for renewable manufacturing by Scottish Enterprise under the National Renewables Infrastructure Plan and is within the Scottish Government’s Low Carbon Renewables East Enterprise Area.
link to forthports.co.uk
Also,
The Port of Dundee has a single tier Ro-Ro facility at Eastern Wharf which can be used to move a wide variety of commodities using roll-on/roll-off vessels.
link to forthports.co.uk
Lastly,
Dundee – Cruise
A key gateway into Dundee and a short walk from the city centre.
River Anchorage available.
Vessels up to 240 metre can be accommodated in the port.
link to forthports.co.uk
@ Capella, how about red & yellow jelly to finish!
O/T, Fred, but in Crocodile Dundee just now, the station scene where a couple of guys are relaying the wummun’s words to Mick Dundee, the second guy has an orange/tangerine hardhat, with the letters D U on the front of it.
Maybe it’s because I’m Dundonian…
@Dr Jim
too much pish about blood and soil whenever anyone tries to discuss the English question,
strangely seems to be the same `faces` turn up when the English question gets discussed,
“blood and soil,blood and soil” lot of pish,
anyhoo,
5 year `main` residence in Scotland before eligible for vote in Indy2,
not perfect but should weed out the transients,
shows a commitment to our country,not just passing through
(.).
Is it any wonder sales figures for newspapers fall year on year. They deserve to go to the wall. I’ll never buy a unionist rag again.
As a reader of the Revs Twitter feed, can I just make the point that you don’t have to join Twitter to read it. Just click on the Revs Twitter feed to the right of his home page, and away you go. Also, type in anyone’s name on the internet, and if they are on Twitter, click the link, and you can anonymously read all tweets. (On the off chance that some readers don’t know this)
Also, why can’t these “good” journalists that we hear about, the ones who must do what the proprietor tells them, not set up an anonymous Twitter account and let people know what is going on, if there are cover ups etc. I sometimes hear that there are “good” people in the BBC etc, surely one of them, just one, could set up an account to expose any bias that they know of.
Just an idea, but maybe it’s not that simple.
and a happy new year
As seen elsewhere papers hand entire pages over to unionist politicians and now seem to let them edit their content. I only wonder if Tory and Labour press offices have login accounts with editor privileges.
So much for a FREE press.
Hark the Heralds poison sting
Truth be gone for new thinking
Lies Deceit are here compiled,
contempt and fear are reconciled
Hateful Colonies will not rise,
Promises made are Pie in skies;
Westminsters host they now proclaim,
Independence will be tamed.
Hark! the herald demons sing,
“Glory to your English King”
Merry Christmas Rev, and to all fellow Rev-ellers!
Bon Nadal to all in Independent Catalonia.
Just catching up.
For lurkers: apologies for the influx of splitter Britnat trolls who have predictably turned up cynically punting their blood and soil crap just to see what reaction they would get.
As heedtracker said a while ago, English folk in Scotland represent only about 10% of the electorate.
It’s the native born Scots beyond the black hole of Britnat bigotry we need to persuade to vote Yes, and Brexit will soon deposit more and more poop on their carpet to lead them to the trigger moment.
A question for them, though: if the wee Polish plasterer who did my hall can happily vote Yes, what’s stopping you?
@Scot Finlayson
“too much pish about blood and soil whenever anyone tries to discuss the English question, strangely seems to be the same `faces` turn up when the English question gets discussed,”
Question for you Scot can you be more explicit about what you mean about the “same faces” turning up and strangely.
Also to what do you refer when you state “too much pish about blood and soil”? What pish?
I got a panelbase poll last week but was filtered out before I could answer the questions. So I don’t know what the poll questions are however, I suspect the Rev has not asked the one constitutional question. Therefore I think and hope he has even better news for us on Christmas Day.
Can’t Wait 🙂
Dundee Harbour is being developed as a decommissioning centre. £Millions is being invested. It has a deep, wide harbour, so the work can be done there. There are other decommissioning centres. One in Shetland? One in the central belt.
Five years is quite long for residential qualifications. It should include EU citizens. They can vote in local elections but not GE. The last Indy Ref was based on GE qualification and 16/17 voting. Otherwise 18+ in GE. In other EU countries e.g Spain, EU citizens can vote in local or regional elections but not in national elections. (Referendum?). No taxation without representation.
Aye,the Herald’s agents ming right enough.
Glory be to the Stu Pot’s Wings.
Merry Christmas to all.
In the breakdown of that poll it seems that non-native Scots and the over 50s still form the bedrock of the No vote. I wonder if the first group of people are more likely to change their minds before the latter? If so, what could we do to persuade non-native Scots that independence is for them as well?
The WoS poll is the 8th most popular article in The Herald.
The article itself, is on the second page.
It!s not just some English folk but 40% of Scottish electorate that vote NO. They still need convincing. Scottish folk resident in England can vote in elections etc.
I concur with other posters. The mere mention of the word English/ England seems to get people’s backs up. Blood and soil crap then comes gushing out. Please remember 72% of them are going to vote no to this country’s independence. I don’t believe any other country would accept that when the question being asked is about nationhood. No danger.
PictAtRandom says:
As for postal votes, maybe it isna practical to count everything in Achiltibuie Village Hall or The Bothy at Rhynie, but there should be some sort of statement of good practice to the effect that voting forms should be moved as little as possible ahead of polling day.
Postal voting was privatized and contracted out to IDOX, an electoral services company controlled by Conservative MP Peter Lilley. The contract agreed by several SNP councils gives IDOX the right to control, open, count, and put forward postal ballot papers up until a 10pm deadline on election/referendum night.
You’d like to say you’re shocked but… Scottish media etc.
@Blair Paterson says: 23 December, 2017 at 2:29 pm:
” … What other country in the the world would allow Incomers to vote on the future of their country???ii.”
Total racist pish, Blair. Being born in a certain place does not make you a national of that place. So Jesus Christ is a donkey as he was born in a stable. It wasn’t even his local stable at that.
Cliff Richards wasn’t English either as he was born in India. King Billy and Queen Mary were not king & queen of England – both were immigrants.
Emma Watson, (Harry Potter Actress), born and raised in Paris.
Prince Phillip – born in Corfu, Greece.
Luol Deng – Wau, born in Sudan represented Britain in basketball.
Vivian Leigh – born in Darjeeling, Bengal. A quintessentially English Actress.
Rita Ora – (born in Pristina, Yugoslavia)(now Kosovo)).
Spike Milligan – born in Ahmednagar in India.
Lena Headey – born in Hamilton, (Bermuda).
Audrey Hepburn – born in Brussels, Belgium.
Cliff Richard – born in Lucknow, India.
Sir Bradley Wiggins – born in Ghent, Belgium, with an Australian father and English mother.
Eddie Izzard – born in Aden (now in Yemen).
Joe Strummer – born in Ankara, Turkey.
Freddie Mercury – born in Stone Town, Sultanate of Zanzibar.
Mo Farah – born in Mogadishu, Somalia.
John Barnes – born in Kingston, Jamaica.
J.R.R Tolkien – born in Bloemfontein, Orange Free State (South Africa).
That’s just skimming the surface being born in Scotland does not make you Scottish – and going by the historic emigrants from Scotland who became famous throughout the World, – neither does being born in Scotland and moving elsewhere allow you to remain Scottish.
@Joemcg
It is no surprise of course that the majority of English people living in Scotland would vote to retain the Union, that’s an obstacle we will just have to overcome.
If we can’t persuade more English born living here that’s our failure and if we much more importantly can’t persuade more Scottish born people of the merits of Independence then that too is our fault. By “our” I mean of course those that already support an Independent Scotland.
So I must ask. which particular group of English born people living in Scotland would YOU personally exclude. All of them or just some of them? Seriously I’d like to know your thoughts.
One last observation, why do you think the MSM try to paint the Indy camp as “anti-English”. It’s really pretty obvious that they wish to make out that Independence supporters are bigots and Nazis. Isn’t Nazi the favourite term for a supporter of Independence btl on almost all articles in the Yoon press?
Don’t do the job for them and keep Wings out of the bile spread by those who desperately wish to see the Independence side fail. No votes will be gained by excluding English born Scots from voting in an another referendum.
Instead we must focus on just one thing and that is winning the majority support of EVERYONE who makes their home Scotland in another vote for Independence.
We need to unite the residential Scottish population in opposition to foreign rule from London. The Scottish people need and deserve to be freed from the burden of subsiding English infrastructure. We need to decide on our own government, we do not need to be ruled by a foreign country
@ Thepnr 9.34: just so and well said, but how many times does it have to be repeated?
Stinky olde The Graun has dealt with it all by simply NOT reportaging anything at all about Scotland for a Saturday edition, by Severin Carrell, Graun hammer of the Scots, zip. Scottish stinky old Graun readers probably just too busy today, to read anything about The Gran’s S______d region.
Certainly one way of dealing with Scottish democracy, saying nothing at all about it
“Because if you search for that headline, you get a LOT of results.”
You really do.
Good evening and Merry Xmas for S_____d, Bicester!
link to bicesteradvertiser.net
Robert peffers.” Neither does being born in Scotland and moving elsewhere allow you to remain Scottish “.
How do you work that out Robert??
O/T
Brent Crude latest price = $65.25 per brl.
Someone above posted “it is not racist to say that people who’s nationality is that of the country from whom you seek independence should not get a vote it is common sense and fairness especially when that country you seek to be independent from has ten times the population of your own country and especially when nearly a million of them have come here to work and are very likely to return to their own country at some time”
I found that rather upsetting.
I would like to point out that in the 1918 election in ireland – which gave a vast majority vote to Republicans – the country was chock a block full of English supporters and Unionists – police, army, civil service, ministers and congregations of the established church, their sons and daughters, servants etc.
There was universal male suffrage and age-restricted female suffrage – yet the irish people voted for independence from England. – Admittedly after an uprising, the execution of their leaders, internment of hundreds of Irishmen and imprisonment of many Irishwomen.
I am convinced when enough Scots hunger and thirst for Independence it won’t matter how many English retirees vote against it.
During the last referendum many of us Scots who live overseas were hurt and upset not to be involved in our country’s vote, particularly when we read of the overseas students who voted no – because long term it did not affect them. or English folk who liked the current British arrangement oblivious to the fact that most overseas nations use English and British interchangeably – and blithely tell you Scotland ‘is part of England’
The sense of being a second class citizen in this union stays with you always no matter where you live and hits you always at this time of the year – whenever you see a Walkers shortbread tin clearly marked made in Scotland on the back – but festooned with images of London on the front, or Scotch whisky with a Union Jack label.
Or on a recent holiday in Yorkshire when umpteen businesses wont accept Scottish notes…. so many reminders of being a second class citizen…
Perhaps if we truly want separation then we have to place more value on Scots born voters as those most affected by the current subordinated democracy.
A referendum with some different qualifications to vote might balance the bias of those who benefit from Scottish generosity and social inclusiveness which is so much different from the ‘British” version.
So for example you would be asked to enrol to collect/receive a ballot paper. Your voting ballot paper could be white for Scots born and living in their country of birth. Yellow for those Scots living elsewhere who choose to enrol to vote, and for those not born but living in Scotland a lovely green ballot paper.
The Scots born and living in Scotland being worth 2 points, with the others being worth 1.
That would sort it out…
I hartily agree with Ben Madgan
Admittedly after an uprising, the execution of their leaders, internment of hundreds of Irishmen and imprisonment of many Irishwomen.”
Violent state oppression and the jailing of political opponents by the Spanish gov in Catalonia, probably had a massive impact in their elections last week too, with Rajoy’s lot coming last.
There’s a lot to learn from history, even for teamGB types.
@Tinto Chiel
Probably as many times as it takes to get the message through, so far that is looking like an infinite number of times.
Though hey! If that’s what it takes.
@Andrea
you are at the wind up,
white,yellow,lovely green,
3 points for a win and one for a draw,
craziest post ever on Wings, ever.
@ Fred – good idea! Themed pudding washed down by Cava Brut. 🙂
– yet the irish people voted for independence from England. – Admittedly after an uprising, the execution of their leaders, internment of hundreds of Irishmen and imprisonment of many Irishwomen.
Lest we forget, extreme Black and Tan violence in Ireland on civilians, particularly the south west, already brutalised by WW1 trench warfare and the shelling of Dublin city centre from British naval gunboats on the Liffey, essentially demolishing any Dublin city centre building within range.
Our collective History.
Maybe i am getting old, but there is a very old saying, there is nothing new under the sun
And it’s true, so people like me do not get upset by things, but we do get very bored with regurgitation
Lets all just concentrate on what is important now, lets all work together and ignore the unimportant and use some tunnel vision to get to the bloody end of that road Alba Gu snooker loopy!
Or on a recent holiday in Yorkshire when umpteen businesses wont accept Scottish notes…. so many reminders of being a second class citizen”
Well don’t take Scottish notes then! Yorkshire is one of England’s most beautiful counties with lovely people. If you’re going to Yorkshire and feel like a 2nd class citizen, see a shrink:D
Also, Whitby and Scarborough alone are worth a wee holiday, even 2nd class.
@ Andrea 9.59
Why not just give us English yesers a yellow star to wear?
Cheap shiny plastic made in China will do.
Sorry, getting really pissed off now, if the wider YES movement can’t convince 50% + 1 of Scottish residents to take the future of their Nation in their own hands then Indy isn’t worth a whore’s kiss.
Embrace everyone and make Scotland the welcoming Country we all want. Ex pats, boo hoo, they fucked off for a better living elsewhere. Make the Scotland better so they want to return and enrich us with their experiences, knowledge and entrapanureship. We need them, not for a vote but for our future. Likewise any English or foreign residents, Indy is coming. Embrace it or gtf! Plenty of hard working folks only too willing to stand in their worn out shoes.
Blood and soil? Who’s fucking blood and who’s soil? No one, not one of us has spilt their last drop defending this wonderful country so gtf with the myopic petty minded nationalism and get out there and work you butts off for what we all believe in
Indy or bust!
So there we have it, being born in scotland does not make you scottish, so cliff richard aka, harry webb , born in india can be scottish, pardon me while i go in the next room and have a good laugh to myself, btw was ghandi scottish, maybe he ate a deep fried mars bar while he toured england lol
@K.A.Mylchreest says: 23 December, 2017 at 6:48 pm:
“It would be interesting to know how exactly Scottish goods are exported — do they have to go down to Felixstowe, or can they be sent from Leith or Aberdeen?””
The Westminster Establishment has very many scams in place to cheat Scotland and many of them are still well hidden and will only become common knowledge after Scotland has full independence.
However, the way that export/import figures are accounted by the Westminster Robber Barons is one that is known.
They account as a United Kingdom country’s exports not as from where the product originates but from where it leaves the United Kingdom.
Thus the most obvious result of this Creative Accounting can be seen in the export of, “Scotch”, Whisky. The largest by far exporters of, “Scotch”, are without doubt, “Diagio”, who have their head office in London. Diagio exports this produce of Scotland from English ports and airports and it is thus accounted by Westminster as being an English Export.
What is not so well known is that over 70% of the Gin exported from the United Kingdom is also produced in Scotland and is also mainly exported via English ports & airports. The very same happens with the United Kingdoms soft fruit exports that mainly come from Scottish Fruit growers and many engineering products are accounted in the same manner.
Then there is the fact that as these companies doing the exporting via England are also registered with London Head Offices and thus their taxation, and that of their shareholders, is accounted as being from England when Westminster cooks its books.
No one can ever hope to disentangle this creative accounting until after a Scottish parliament is up and running Scotland.
Likewise the way that oil & gas revenues are accounted with Westminster classing these revenues as from, “Extraregio”, Territory. The definition of the term, “Extraregio”, is defined as, “Territory unable to be assigned to any particular region”, but geographically over 98% of the oil & gas revenues come from what is undoubtedly Scottish Territorial Waters but Westminster, while grabbing the entire revenues, only accounts Scotland with raising only 8.4% of the revenue on a population basis and that only for use in compiling other false accountancy statistics. In practice Scotland gets not a single penny of oil & gas revenue.
Scotland’s only revenue comes via the Block Grant that is only calculated by the use of the Barnett Formula and, of course, from this year onwards from the very much less important direct Income Tax that began this year – and that was also a trap that Westminster set-up in the hope that Scotland would fail to show it has used the powers properly.
However, our financial minister at Holyrood managed a really brilliant budget and frustrated Westminster.
The pnr-it’s not going to happen though is it? I just think Scotland is unique in the world that our biggest neighbours have this thought process seared into their brain that England somehow own Scotland and we are a possession that they are not going to give up. We are going to start indyref2 down hundreds of thousands of votes. It’s a given. You tell me how to solve it. Maybe a residential rule may help. If I was running it a place of birth rule would be in place. We can be inclusive when we achieve independence. Let an English person run an independent Scotland, I don’t care as long as we win next time.
Robert Peffers @ 9.26pm
“”Cliff Richards wasn’t English either as he was born in India. King Billy and Queen Mary were not king & queen of England – both were immigrants.””
………………..
If you are referring to the 17th century Queen Mary the wife of William of Orange then she was not an immigrant.
Queen Mary was born in London. She was the eldest daughter of the Duke of York, later King James VII and II.
@Moonlight says: 23 December, 2017 at 7:16 pm:
“Likewise we need to be studying how we can increase international air services. Prestwick belongs to the taxpayer and has the potential of the ground links.”
You do realise, don’t you, that the underuse of Scottish ports and airports is a deliberate Westminster government policy to route all goods, both import and export, via the English ports and/or the Chunnel?
By this method Westminster can fiddle the UK’s books as they do not account as Scottish Exports that which is produced in Scotland but they account as English exports anything, and everything, that leaves the UK via English ports as English exports.
What is more they class the infrastructure, of such as Heathrow, as being of National importance and thus force the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish taxpayers to contribute towards the costs. They also doballet, this with such as the Greenwich Observatory and the so called, “National”, Museums, Art Galleries, Orchestras, Theatres and so on. The hidden stealing of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish assets is deeply ingrained in the Westminster Establishment mantras.
Thepnr @ 21:34,
Tinto Chiel @ 21:48,
Thepnr @ 22:15,
My view also.
It’s just a pity that it does have to be repeated because the same old faces pop up every time and pollute thread after thread with loads of the same old (often quasi-racist, sorry) ill-judged tripe.
It’s supposed to be about convincing *everyone* that what we want is what actually makes sense, even for most former “no” voters too, if they would only just open their minds and eyes. Not least because we all have to live together with the consequences afterwards.
The discussion is basically pointless – angels on pinheads – because none of it will change a damn thing about voter entitlement anyway. Worse than pointless actually – people looking for cute ways to gerrymander a referendum while also typically complaining that the last one was fiddled! =sigh= Very convincing. Not.
The whole thing just demeans us all. We have far better issues with which to occupy our minds, IMO.
Like the actual topic of this article, for example.
Gosh some people on here are very nasty about anyone who either doesn’t live in Scotland or are not Scottish by birth! And some have practically a plateful of chips on their shoulders! Some of the comments ‘re who should get to vote or not, are quite horrible. Some people need to take a long hard look at themselves and their attitude to others.
Over the last few threads the btl comments just keep deteriorating more and more.
All the usual suspects playing the divide and conquer routine .
More background info on this controversial Tory MP
link to caltonjock.com
Tinto chief
Your wee polish plasterer has lived in a family with self worth, he has never been an english unionist who came to live in scotland
And btw, the highlands has a thriving polish community, that’s where i am going to live after the new year, at least the poles know all about fighting for and dying for their freedom
Thepnr @ 9:34 pm
You wrote: “Don’t do the job for them and keep Wings out of the bile spread by those who desperately wish to see the Independence side fail. No votes will be gained by excluding English born Scots from voting in an another referendum.
Instead we must focus on just one thing and that is winning the majority support of EVERYONE who makes their home Scotland in another vote for Independence.”
Hard as this will be, ‘unfair’ as it may seem by some to be, you are in my view totally in the right on this. Well said!
Any hint of ‘blood and soil’ nationalism taints, diminishes and ultimately will fail our cause to achieve self-determination that is worth having viz. an independent, progressive Scotland.
Our opponents already decry our nationalism despite its evident ‘civic’ nature. We must not feed them any actual evidence that we, and notably the Wings community’, are really Scots-born ‘exceptionalists’. And beware of the motives of some of those that may encourage us in that direction.
Robert- please explain how it’s quasi racist wanting to have Scottish people exclusively voting on Scotland’s independence? WTF?!
@Brian Doonthetoon
Thanks for the comprehensive information. Makes the point really, I travel over the bridge quite frequently and see a couple of jackups and the odd ship berthed. I therefore assume , wrongly, that there is not much going on.
Now I’m interested in these strategic issues, I doubt that many soft NOs are. But when it comes to selling a YES vote, it will be necessary to be able to demonstrate that Scotland has got or can quickly realise the facilities necessary to completely by pass England and maintain access to the trade goods, whether Spanish veg or French wines or German cars that we consume. And that the same resources can be used to maintain an uninterupted flow of our export goods to the continent and beyond.
What I mean to say is that if England were to choose to make life difficult for Scottish exporters and interupt TIR trade through their third country territory, then Scotland will have the resources to simply bypass that country and get on with being an independent country under the EU umbrella.
Now we need to make much of this, it will unbalance our enemies and reassure our friends.
I do believe we should be able to demonstrate that life will go on much as normal and that we have thought it out and are prepared. Attack the fear and uncertainty with facts and preparedness
How can you be an english born scot, or an irish born american, you are a national of the country you where born in, that’s self evident
You cannot become the president of the united states unless you where born in america, there is a reason for that, and if anyone cannot understand the reason , then all i can say is this, i can’t make you understand because you are beyond understanding the principle behind it
@Joemcg
If I was running it a place of birth rule would be in place. We can be inclusive when we achieve independence.
That one sentence looks pretty contradictory to me. Tell me this why can we only be inclusive AFTER we win Independence and not now?
That’s one reason I’m pretty grateful that it is the Scottish Government who are setting the rules and not you Joe.
Thepnr
I may as well talk to the man in the moon, or the fairies at the bottom of your garden lol
you are not scottish if you where not born in scotland, its so bloody simple to understand, so some of you people who are trying to muddy the waters, stop it
Thepnr,
I don’t know about the man in the moon but I’ll bet the fairies at the bottom of your garden all vote YES!
😉
@David Caledonia
…………………./´¯/)
………………..,/¯../
………………./…./
…………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
……..(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
………\……………..’…../
……….”…\………. _.·´
…………\…………..(
…………..\………….\…
Any individual, family, or group of people, anywhere, anytime, can refuse to be ‘ruled’.
They may not have any ‘right’ *not* to be ruled, but they are duty-bound to kick-up fuck about it by all means available to them – if they don’t, they are encouraging/normalising servitude.
‘the Irish people voted for Independence’?
The Partition of Ireland 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928.
Catholics in NI – Belfast were denied the vote right up until the 1960’s. Bernadette Devlin etc, Some Irish were denied the vote. Denied public jobs and public housing. The masonics. DUP etc disobeyed UK Law. Still at it. Criminals and crooks.
There was a strong Home Rule movement in Ireland throughout the 19C. Led by Protestant landowner Charles Stuart Parnell. Scotland was treated similar. Not allowed to own a horse, carry a sword. Forfeit land. Have to emigrate. The Clearances. The famine not relieved in Ireland. Millions died. Scotland was depopulated. Maybe that is why Scotland is more tolerant of migration. Most people in Scotland have family overseas who had to emigrate. 40 Million Diasporia. Ireland is the same.
A Home Rule Bill was to be passed two weeks after the start of the 1WW. It prevented it. The majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule or Independence. The Irish Land League. Ulster – the six counties became an apartheid enclave. They are still at it. Brainwashed since the day they were born. Total ignorance above the Law. The Mssonics. Rewarded by the Westminster unionists. To keep them quiet for votes at Westminster. Instead of the Law being enforced. Totally subsidised.
Ireland could eventually vote to reunite. Demographics. It would be quite feasible.
Tell you what @Rock says at 6:43 pm
“Don’t you think that The National has been shamed into taking a bold pro independence stand for once due to my comments on this blog?”
When The National runs a front page with “It wos Rock wot won it” on the day Scotland regains her independence I’ll believe it.
😉
@frogesque
@ Andrea 9.59
Why not just give us English yesers a yellow star to wear?
I feel your frustration, note this though that they’re very few posting on Wings such views who are not totally new to this site or also well known wind up merchants and are most likely Unionist in Outlook.
I don’t believe “Andrea” has ever posted before tonight, Terrance callahan another new poster, sure there are more. Of course we also have the usual suspects though this looks like a change of plan LOL
The plain fact is that most readers of Wings and the great majority of posters won’t get involved in such discussions on either side. Those with most to say have been here a while or generally it’s fair to say fairly new.
Maybe wearing a Yellow Yes badge would be a good idea for all supporters of Independence in proving a point. Up to you the badge makers. I’d wear one.
@ David Caledonia
I know a 90 year-old woman, who was a mere 87 when she voted Yes in 2014. Her ancestors were born and raised in Scotland for as far back as they can be traced; they died here too.
For 89.5 years of her life, she too has lived in Scotland. She has a Scottish accent and Scottish maiden name, married name, given name and two middle names.
But…
for less than a year, which happened to include her birth, her parents were economic migrants in England.
According to you, that woman is not Scottish.
(No-one choses the place they were born, and no-one can change it afterwards. That is what is so bloody simple to understand, yet it seems to be beyond several people on here.)
Exceptionally classy response to David Britannia there @Thepnr says at 11:26 pm.
I’m pinching it BTW.
2 days ago David Caledonia (sic) was professing his SNP membership credentials…
Now the true right wing bigot shows his true colours.
Anyhoo….dave the diddy aside..you know there is an issue with your tax laws when THIS happens.
Take a bow, Republic of Ireland…(?)
link to archive.is
The pnr-erm…because it’s highly unlikely we are going to win a second vote if 72% of hundreds of thousands of English people vote no? Jesus wept. Going round in bloody circles.
@Joemcg
Have faith Joe in your fellow Scots to do the right thing. Stick with it and work your arse off to justify that faith and make it happen.
Best of luck.
Thatcher routed the transport system through London S/E. it was a deliberate centralist policies. Built 26 miles of Docks at Tilbury. Stopped all the trade coming into ports around the UK. Thatcher centralised all economic policies around London S/E. The banks etc. Built Canary Wharf. Cut banking regulations and allowed ‘loads of money’ bankers funding the Tory Party to run riot. Led to the banking crash.
Thatcher demutualised the Building Societies owned by their members. Let them be taken over by the banks. It was the Building Societies that lent to fund mortgages. Ring fenced. The Banks handled commericial business. Thatcher had over 3Million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. Highest unemployment in Scotland. Lowest in London S/E. Thatcher introduced tax havens. Sold off utilities. Now most are owned by foreign companies. Monopolising the market. Cartels. No competition.
Early 90’s RBS moved to performance related pay. Instead of increments and banking exams. Sell, sell, sell. Brown allowed the traditional exams to be replaced with unreliable, dubious customer service accreditation. Not robust enough. Brown believed keeping interest rates at 5% prevented boom and bust. When too many people was borrowing too much. In London S/E and the Midlands. Pozzi housing borrowing schemes. Led to the banking crash. Brexit will be worse.
The pnr-what about the moral aspect? I can assure you if I was living in Catalonia that I would not ever vote on their independence. No way. It’s got nothing to do with me yet we have huge swathes of foreign nationals voting on our right to independence. It’s just wrong. It’s bloody shocking in my opinion.
Joe’s been at this since after the ref, he literally says the same thing every opportunity he can. Why do we bother responding to him, reams of the obvious failed logic of his stance have been presented over and over again. He literally comes on and says the ‘exact’ same stuff regardless.
It’s actually predictable as out. Your views are never going to be the ‘norm’ Joe, gie it a rest eh?
72% of ‘English’ voters. ‘Hundreds of thousands’ There are less than 10% Then 3/4 of them. Some don’t vote 20%? 6% of the electorate. Hardly enough to swing it.
@Ken500
Yep, you got that right Dad/Son 🙂 The Indyref will be decided by your fellow Scots. Those you work with, even those you live with but in particular your mothers, fathers, grannies and grandads.
Change any of them from a NO voter is you priority not to sort out total strangers. We’ll win this by persuading those closest to us.
That’s a fact.
Folk are angry at other folk who voted NO in the last ref
and are afraid they’re going to do it again, and they’re right to be annoyed, but really what folk want and what’s upsetting for them is there’s a section of society who will never vote YES even to save their own lives, they just won’t do it, and that’s stupidity, so I suppose it’s more to do with some way to resolve in folks minds that the stupid buggers are going to do it and the rest of us have to put up with the feeling of frustration and powerlessness
So some folk get carried away but others should cut them a little slack in their frustration because we all know we don’t get to decide stuff like that anyway, the government will do what is in their judgement the fairest way to proceed and we’ll vote for it or not, and of course we’ll vote for
A word to English folk:
I’m sure most of you who agree with Independence for Scotland aren’t too offended because you probably realise when folk are being passionate about this issue they don’t actually mean you
They mean the ones who aren’t you,coz they’re happy about you voting Yes so what they’re really saying is they’re angry with the same silly buggers you’re angry with but they haven’t NOTICED you’re just as angry with the buggers as well
Can’t we just all accept that there is at least 30% who will always vote NO. Be they OO types, hard right wing Tories, English or daft old fuckers.
They will vote NO so accept that, 49% it seems will vote yes so we don’t many of that other 21% who are NOT hard core Unionists to come over to the YES side.
These include Commonwealth Citizens, EU Citizens, English residents and most obvious of all the 83% of people who were born in Scotland yet still 48% would vote NO.
Please get our priorities right and focus on the 21% than can be persuaded, including those most close to you. Most of us have them, they are family.
Therein lies The National’s dilemma, and why I am still on a monthly sub. rather than a yearly.
The National’s pro indy contingent are between a Rock (sic) and a hard place, as indicated by some of their output.
However, on the basis that at least a seeming majority of their contributors are genuinely open to the idea of normal levels of self government for Scotland and while that remains the case, we should continue to lend them our support.
yip,
same old faces turn up,right on cue,
“blood and soil,blood and soil”,
pish.
velofello says:
23 December, 2017 at 7:19 pm
In response to terence collation, and an inappropriate rude response to him from ScotsRenewables
OK, you think I am rude? Let me put it another way. Trolls like yourself who try to promote blood and soil ethnic nationalism have no place in this movement. A new nation based on racial purity has been tried before. It was universally condemned then and will be again.
Is that clear enough for you?
Dev Ref 1 1979: YES 51.6%, NO 48.4%
Dev Ref 2 1997: YES 75.4%, NO 24.6%
Indy Ref 1 2014: YES 44.7%, NO 55.3%
Indy Ref 2 2019: YES ??.?%, NO ??.?%
No wonder the Unionists are trying their best to divide and conquer. They’re going as beresk as a tadpole chasing its own tail in a bottle of sugar-free Irn Bru.
@yesindyref2
Smell the fear of them that we will remain United.
That’s why they try so hard to divide us. Next time it isn’t going to work, they’ve run out of powder.
I guess someone already commented on this, but in Ashcroft’s poll immediately after the Ref (I can’t find the details though I’ve a hardcopy somewhere), “slighly less than 40% of Labour voters voted YES”.
Well, after the Ref, Labour slumped and the SNP shot up, so presumably Labour voters changed to SNP, and you’d presume they’re more Indy-minded than those that stayed for Labour, so you’d expect that near 40% to drop to 35%, 30% or even 25%?
But in spite of that the figure for YES amongst Labour voters has shot up from less than 40% Sep 19 2014, to 46% now. Soon at this rate a majority of Labour voters will be pro-Indy, and wherefore goest thou then oh Scottish Labour?
@Thepnr
I guess the useful idiots serve a purpose, allowing the majority of us to show we have no truck with their brand of blood and soil nationalism, but welcome all to Scotland as fully engaged citizens of our Country, with equal rights and equal voting power to the rest of us.
Which is as it should be in an inclusive society such as Scotland.
There is no news…. no newspapers… no TV news…. there is only opinion.
Easily explained as propaganda.
The news on Catalonia from the BBC and MSM has descended into downright disinformation.
The Catalonian independence parties won the election with over half the seats yet the media is reporting it as if the Unionist party was the winner.
This is simply Nazi type propaganda from the British State terrified of Scottish independence in its own backyard.
Mornin’ Willie ~
Scotland should be an independent country.
2.
What is the difference between the bbc and news on Catalonia and the bbc news after the last WM election when they tried to tell the world the tories had won in Scotland – remember this is the bbc the blatantly biased corrupt media outlet. No longer even trying to hide the bias and no longer even acknowledging complaints. We just have to keep telling everyone because once you start to notice for yourself you cannot stop and you will never trust them again. The scales literally fall from your eyes.
But it is Christmas Eve so keep up the great work Stu and Chris and everyone on here and have a very joyful happy Christmas.
Dr jim 12.18am. A great post Dr jim which I’m sure speaks for the great majority of us.
yesindyref2 @ 4.38
Totally agree with what you said. The postal votes must be tightened up though.
In 2014 up in our wee ‘van in Bettyhill and went to Durness. Overheard two men talking about the upcoming ref, one said that he would be coming back when the postal votes were sent out – so he could vote No!! Obviously someone with a ‘holiday home’, this needs to be clamped down on.
@ Smallaxe 11.24pm last night
So very nice to see you back on the m/t – does Mrs S know you’re out? Take care of you and yours and have a peaceful Christmas.
@ thepnr @ 11.26pm last night
Soooperb!
To all wingers (especially Nana) have a joyous and peaceful Chirstmas and as somebody once said ‘may your god go with you’.
Merry Xmas to Stu, and thanks for all your efforts throughout the year.
Merry Xmas to all the great “Wings” contributors who keep things flying along.Let us look forward with hope that this year will be our finest yet, as the Union crumbles.
Wow!! The usual Yoons are going absolutely ape-shit in the btl comments bit of scotsman.com; below that 49% support for Independence story.
And as for Lord Foulkes’s tweet, shown on the Rev’s twitter feed – well, the old soak must really have been tanking the single malt last night.
Frogesque 10.25pm .No i didn’t f**k off from Scotland for a better living 35yrs ago. I f**ked off for a LIVING. for because of Scottish liebors f**king sectarian unofficial job policy in Scotland ,i couldn’t get a f**king job.
Separately, to the Rev, Chris Cairns and other contributors.
Thank you, thank you for your hard work, you have made me angry, happy, mad, depressed, elated and everything in between!!
Merry Christmas and here’s hoping 2018….. nope not going there!!!
Serious question here: Is the current English Prime Minister really so poorly educated as her every pronouncement indicates she is or is her apparent lack of education just another form of Westminster Establishment propaganda?
Her latest example of an apparent lack of good education comes in her Christmas message to the
plebselectorate. It is a prime, (ministerial), example of sheer ignorance.She proclaims the following :-
Just for the record her education is summed up in her biography:-
Her father was a vicar for the Church of England.
May attended English state-run primary and grammar schools and briefly went to a Catholic school.
She studied geography at St. Hugh’s College at Oxford University and earned her B.A. in 1977. So in spite of her obvious geographic errors she holds a B.A. in geography.
Ironically, after graduation, May spent the next 20 years working in the financial sector before making her way into the education and political sectors in the mid ’80s and ’90s. She describes herself as a “One-Nation Conservative.”
Apart from Kevin Hague, J K Rowling & Adam Tomkins the only English people I know of are young people who came to Scotland to study and enjoyed it so much they decided to stay.
This led me to thinking about students and I was wondering if they had a vote in the first IndyRef.
The fact that English born people are keen to keep Scotland in the Union could be turned into an argument for Independence.
You could ask why English born people so keen to keep a country in need of subsidies in the Union? What are the advantages for England of having Scotland in the Union?
Actually it was.40 yrs ago. But I still go home regularly.
The poll result reflectis a progressive shift in Scotland’s understanding of its place in the disunited Kingdow.
It has been very instructive over the last few years watching any aspiration of this country expressed politically trampled on by the UK parliamentary system.
We are not equal partners in the UK and we now have plenty of evidence to support that belief. Brexit , the denial of Scotland’s right to determine its own relationship with Europe is a good example of how we are perceived at WM by a government that we do not vote for.
The UK political system is broken . Scotland is a country not a regional protest group and all political decisions about Scotland’s future should be determined as a small independent nation state,inclusive,outward looking policies with a localised listening government .
WM does not act in Scotland’s interests, it never has but increasingly it is evident that it works for a small % of the population – some of whom live in Britan, many do not.
A small nudge and Scotland will be over the Indy finish line and then we can really say that we are living in a democracy.
Liz Rannoch,
Hi Liz, thanks and yes Mrs S has let me loose for Christmas.
I hope you and the ones you love have a Happy and Peaceful Christmas and that the New Year brings everything that you and all we Wingers hope for.
Seasons Greetings to all Wingers, may we achieve our goal of Independence* peacefully and permanently in the not too distant future. Peace and Love to All
EU citizens can only vote in local and regional elections. Not GE or Ref. Same in EU countries. (Spain etc) in Catalonia they won the most seats but not the overall vote 47%. The D’Hondt carry on.
A residential qualification should give Eau citizens a vote In Referendums. In the EU Ref 2million+ people did not get to vote. A majority of people in the U.K. Want to stay in the EU. The Tory shambles. If EU citizens could vote. They could have voted YES in Indy Ref and YES in the EU Ref. Giving Scotland Independence in the EU. In the last Indy Ref support increased over 20%. It would increase in the next one.
It is the older folk who vote NO. They do not know the full facts and need persuading. Or do not access the Internet. Like sectarianism. It rots away and destroys the economy. Things are changing. Some people from England have a foot in both camps. That is understanderable. They thing they might be losing their rights. A residential qualification would exclude students passing through. 2nd home owners should not have a vote in any case. Especially if they are registered to vote elsewhere.
People in Scotland would be up in arms if people from Scotland were refused a vote in the rest of the UK. It works both ways.
A word of caution for folks having a go at English folk in Scotland.
My English born and bred wife persuaded me to change my vote to SNP.
The first SNP party member with whom I had a serious conversation on Independence with was also English.
The news on Catalonia from the BBC and MSM has descended into downright disinformation.”
BBC r4 tories now call Catalonia, “the crisis.” Indy ref2 for Scotland, is going to be a very dirty beeb propaganda war.
Same beeb liggers were in Austria yesterday slimeing all over/explaining how the far right is winning and being normalised, as they set about normalising the far right for us all back in their UK zone.
If Hitler was around today, current beeb gimp network would be “normalising” him too.
link to washingtontimes.com
Westminster intransigence. That’s the problem.
Don’t want nukes based in Scotland. Take them away.
Don’t want to pay loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. That’s OK.
Don’t want a high tax on the Oil & Gas secret when the price has fallen. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs in Scotland. OK change it.
Put a tax on drink. On ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol. Help health outcomes. OK
Stop fiddling the books. OK. Stop illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. OK. Stop sanction and starving vulnerable people.
Tories psycho bastards. Every Westminster leader who has opposed Scottish Indepenence has lasted on average two years. Who wants the poison chalice?
Postal Votes, all postal votes in any future ind ref should be presented to the local PO in Scotland, where they will be franked on the outside and be counted in that local count, they will be opened and counted only whem the polls are closed and are waiting on the boxes to arrive. No travel that the boxes don’t have to travel. No frank No vote.
Talk about putting the cart before the horse…
I’m still waiting for the answer to: What happens when the UK Govt refuses Scotland Act powers for constitutional matters to be devolved to the Scottish Govt?
Aye, they can have a referendum, which the UK Govt – and anyone opposed to it- can and will simply ignore. It’s a dead end.
So, that’s probably the route the SNP will choose, as the SNP are now more devolutionist than independist, but need to keep the pretence up to appease the pro-indy supporters.
What’s the real answer then? When a state won’t recognise a referendum as it’s regarded unconstitutional? ( Sounds familiar: Catalonia?)
It has to go to an elections. We have to vote a majority of pro-independence parties who stand on a manifesto that: a vote for them is a vote for independence.
Better still, not independence parties, but pro-independists standing under one banner: not SNP policies, not Green policies. One policy onely: independence.
That will never happen. The SNP political egos and Westminster funded Holyrood pro-rata salaries and pensions are more important than independence to many in the SNP.
Merry Xmas to you Smallaxe. Great to see you posting again.
Orange Hitler is now paying tax in Scotland! All thanks to SNP Scots gov. Trump will no doubt come for them, little rocket man style now. Its in the Herald but I have used up my read 5 per decade Herald nonsense limit.
The poll has worried the Establishment as Ruth Davidson has been wheeled out on Radio 4’s programme ‘Broadcasting House’.
Named as political person of the year when it should be the Media for promoting her.
Here’s a thought about English born residents of Scotland who the poll implies would vote 28% YES.
The English people I know of generally tend to be older, better off, Tory voting.
And before some idiot points out that they know English people who are young, poor, or SNP voting, I am (like polling statistics) talking about samples, probabilities and generalisations. Of course there are always exceptions!
The YES voting intention for these groups are …
ABC1 45%
55+ 36%
Tory. 4%
IF English born people tend to belong to these groups in larger numbers, then those demographics alone could explain the 28%.
They could be appearing to be strong NOs because they are more likely to be Tory, who after all is allegedly popular in South Britain. Also many are better off retired. Others moved to Scotland for work and are likely to be higher skilled. The proposition that they more likely to be ABC1 55+ and/or Tory, makes sense,
Looking at the issue this way matters because YES2 must formulate an Indy ‘sales pitch’ for each group. Especially 55+ and middle class, but even IMO Tories. English borns will be influenced by the same approaches.
Gullane No4 9.12am
I think people are having a go at English folk who take advantage of what Scotland has to offer & then vote no.
It’s kinda like when ‘the auld folk’ are slagged off too for voting no.
It’s just that the majority of both tend to vote no and it takes a bit longer to type ‘the usual qualifications apply’, if you see what I mean.
During the next ref. I would like to see party political broadcasts include films from English Scots for Yes and Pensioners for Independence being pushed more.
When I mentioned the English guy in Durness @ 8.23am it was him I was angry at and the postal ballot carry-on, not all English.
I did agree with indyref2 post that all should vote, I’m sorry if it came across the wrong way.
@ Ian Brotherhood 11.27 pm – great comment, short and to the point. When oppressed, resistance is honourable, by any means.
Capella,
Thank you, my friend, I hope you and those you love have a great Christmas and a peaceful much deserved rest over the holiday season.
Work starts again in earnest in the New Year and we’ll need your valued input. We Shall Overcome, democratically with votes for all who are legally entitled no matter where they happened to be born.
****************************************************************
Some people don’t seem able to grasp the concept of *Inclusiveness* and fairness for all. That’s what we’re striving for, isn’t it?
This talk of blood and soil nationalism is going to cost votes from non-Scots in any future indy ref but it is going to cost a lot more votes from Scots born voters.
This is the 21st century. We have access to the internet where we can communicate with people from all over the world. We are exposed to cultures from all over the world. Due to modern affordable transport, we can go anywhere in the world and people from all over the world can come here.
This is the world-view of most Scots. They are simply not going to buy in to the insular view proposed by these blood and soil nationalists. Whether you like it or not, they will vote No in any indy ref is that is what will happen, even if it makes it make poorer.
That simply is the reality of the situation.
Liz Rannoch says:
Definitely agree. SNP and YES broadcasts tend to focus on young people. This is probably about pushing the idea that they are the future etc.. However, clearly a lot of 55+s aren’t being influenced by the idea that they should be voting for the benefits of their grandchildren not themselves.
As a generalisation, broadcasts and campaign materials should feature more target groups.
Liz Rannoch says: 24 December, 2017 at 9:55 am
If someone is offered a freebie with no strings attached then you simply can’t blame them for taking it. That is simple human nature.
The problem lies with the system that allows it. There needs to be some mechanism to stops this but it has to be applied to both Scots as well as non-Scots to avoid discrimination.
This is a hard one to solve because it could potentially destabilise the notion of universality of benefits which is essential for such a system to survive. On a previous thread, there was a mention about a form of Scottish citizenship given to individuals who met several criteria. Maybe this could be used?
Anyone can apply for Scottish /UK citizenship and they do. There has been an increase because of Brexit. What freebees? English people in Scotland pay tax, including pensioners and EU citizens who do not have a vote. No taxation without representation. Westminster is the problem. Intransigence. Outvoted 10 to 1.
The hysteria about some English voters in Scotland. A tiny proportion. Irrelevant.
A positive reminder:
Sixteen and seventeen year olds can and will be voting again.
It’s twoo, it’s twoo, it’s 2.
Say Jim, how’s life in the clean world?
On a previous thread, there was a mention about a form of Scottish citizenship given to individuals who met several criteria. Maybe this could be used?”
We should just have the one question Pacman, at the border, “are you now or have you ever been English?”
Maybe even you can do the asking, at the border, in a big peak cap too, you barking mad Xmas turkey:D
OT
It’s just a little thing, and a long time coming…
But my IOS Apple tablet finally has a saltire emoji in its flag section.
While I agree many of the English born voters will disproportionately vote No and often Tory, some in the Greens or even LibDems will vote Yes.
I don’t see any point in spending time on arguing whether they should get a vote or not, its a toxic diversion, they voted last time too, we nearly won.
Fundamentally, we really shouldn’t even be in a position where we have to consider this. The electorate is overwhelmingly Scots born. If we convince enough of them, we win. Our main enemy is the media, particularly the BBC. As was the case last time.
For me, our priorities should be overcoming:
1) Media bias – call them out, don’t let them use a cloak of neutrality, humour often works, Jackie in the pink ‘joseon-ot’ on a billboard – magic
2) Voting no is ‘normal’ & easiest – which well known voices will stand up for Yes this time, brexit has to count for something now
3) Fear filled pensioners & postal voting – a revised registration process, bribery & a bit of fear for their grandchildren’s future
Oh, and Edinburgh – wake up, smell the coffee & seize your destiny.
Merry Christmas Wingers.
galamcennalth @ 10.11am
Oh Yes!
Pacman @10.12am
Systems, mechanisms and criteria? Sounds like somebody’s goose stepping towards Christmas!!
If you’re here, you vote. Simples. We just need to try a bit harder to convince. Simples.
The bureaucracy involved in taking UK citizenship has been lessened. More red tape and expense. A backlog. 28 pages of gooklygook. Shortened. Now can be done on the internet. The Tories are implementing paying EU more for less rights and decision making.
😉
link to thecanary.co
Dirty Damien;
link to newsthump.com
Top of the Flops;
link to newsthump.com
Dear Santa, can I have a blue passport?;
link to newsthump.com
Headtracker
I have archived the Trump article;
link to archive.is
Only £56k for a dress! Poor wee soul. But its great to see our imperial masters cutting back in this age of UKOK austerity. We’re all in this Better together. Harry’s skids were only 10 grand a pop.
link to independent.co.uk
Marcia says:
24 December, 2017 at 10:48 am
Headtracker
I have archived the Trump article;
Thank you! Its big bucks isn’t it? Not for Trump maybe but its still a huge rebate on a golf club.
More broadly, Orange Hitler is the first US pres since the 70’s to not publish a tax return. Yet his crew are on it totally, to claw back Scottish tax breaks.
Trump golf does bring in a lot of tourist money though but we can be ultra certain of one thing, indy ref2 comes, it’s going to be Orange Hitler at the forefront of the beeb gimp network vote NO or else campaign. And now its personal
After reading the constant rubbish that is put out by Torrance, Gordon and others I cancelled my subscription to the Herald which has become little better than the Hootsman. These so called journalists are abusing their position and democracy.
OK, I confess, I bear the stigma of being born south of the border, but beg to be excused as I was very young at the time and not really in control of the situation.
K.A.Mylchreest says:
24 December, 2017 at 11:16 am
OK, I confess, I bear the stigma of being born south of the border, but beg to be excused as I was very young at the time and not really in control of the situation.”
Report to zoomer Pacman up there, where you will be dealt with appropriately.
@heedtracker
“Only £56k for a dress!” Let them eat cake!
@Colin Alexander
“I’m still waiting…”
It’s been addressed a few times.
No-one on here can answer your question, the UK government can’t answer your question, Holyrood can’t answer your question and Courts can’t answer your question. If you were to read up on it yourself, you would have discovered that the UK parliament believes that all matters pertaining to the “Union” are completely reserved. Even discussing such matters outwith the UK parliament is a transgression.
It “believes” a great many things, not least its Parliamentary Sovereignty. In effect, whatever any legislation says, whatever anyone may believe – Parliamentary Sovereignty trumps all.
That is the important bit : “Sovereignty above all”
Above legislation, constitution (whatever that is) treaties, acts, courts, laws – Above all. The ability to make it up as they go along. The UK Parliament. Crown and Government bestride the world distributing their munificence as they see fit. They giveth and taketh away in their divine justice and wisdom.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
Because of all the above, anyone can act in any way they wish towards the UK, because there are no rules in the game.
You call them out, pull them up and see how it falls.
As every other nation before us has done and the EU is currently doing.
Or else you must believe – as the Government and many many subjects still do – “Britannia” upon hearing the plaintive cries of her most ignorant and wilful chidren, in her infinite wisdom and divine mercy, overlooks their transgressions and trespasses against her and hereby deigns to grant and bestow independence to a fledgling and subordinate nation. May it be humble, grateful and beholden for eternity. Praise be unto her, Amen.
That’s how they think.
Others think “You’re a loony”
Pick one.
There you go – facetiously addressed, but not answered.
In the spirit of the season – I wish you and all ‘Wingers’ a Merry Xmas!
Thepnr says:
24 December, 2017 at 11:40 am
@heedtracker
“Only £56k for a dress!” Let them eat cake!
Nero fiddles while Rome burns.
It is a lot of money for a dress. Trying to get ones nogin round that level of rich too, one is left wondering what on earth they think they are are doing today, Xmas 1917.
Oh well, at least they’ve abolished slavery, right?
This.
“Alt Clut says:
23 December, 2017 at 12:45 pm
SNAFU – but it doesn’t alter the facts of the poll. All Indy groups that aren’t already doing it should start unofficial campaigning asap after the Xmas shenanigans.”
Get on with it. If we wait for the First Minister to pull the trigger we’ll be caught flat footed and that’s not a great start point.
Hush Colin you utter clown.
There is NO LEGAL barrier to The SG holding a referendum. (It is NOTHING like Spain, there is NO UK CONSTITUTION far less one which bars a referendum you utter clownshoe).
When the time comes, you just vote No, and when the Yes votexis returned, i will give you the taxi fare to anywhere you wish to go.
If you’re here, you vote. Simples. We just need to try a bit harder to convince. Simples”
Tis true. We want MORE democracy, not less, here in the tory Scotland region of tory zoomers and roasters.
We want more people to come to Scotland, not less. here in the etc etc etc
Just look at the yoon catastrofuck that is Aberdeen, the oil Capital of Europe, with nothing to show for it all, after 40+ years, but giant debt, for all Aberdeen, for generations to come.
“Union” street, Aberdeen’s heart, looks like the aftermnath of the Great Drepression but above all else, our yoon masters and SLabour catastrofucks of the millenium, local division, such as future Sir Wullie Young, are all minted.
Normal Aberdeen city cooncil election turn outs? 20%.
You get the SLabour yoon catastrofucks you dont get off your airse and vote for.
ACC debt, now over £1.3bn, all owned by City slickers, who then use it all to threaten Aberdeen in to the Vote NO or else catagerory
Welcome to local Scottish democracy, where less is really much more, for yoon spendthrifts and City slicker usury.
@ Thepnr, anent “the same faces turning up!” should be “the same faeces turning up!”
Merry Xmas kid!
To gain independence we have to do this:
MP candidates stand at the UK General Election on a manifesto pledge: If a majority of Scots MPs are elected on an independence manifesto, the MPs have a mandate to declare dissolution of the Union and thus independence for Scotland.
The Tories, Labour and LibDems turned the 2017 GE into: say No to a second indyref campaign.
The Independists must turn any future GE into an independence plebiscite. No muddying of the waters with any other policies. One policy only: independence.
Talk of voting percentages, such as pro-indy must achieve over 50% of the vote has no historical or legal basis. That is not how general elections work.
Big hello to Smallaxe! Nice to see you again.
geeo, constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster.
Aye the Scot Govt can hold a referendum on a constitutional matter, an opinion poll, but it would have no constitutional legal or political validity under devolution rules as legislated for in the Scotland Act.
Unless, the UK Govt gave that temporary constitutional power – and they have made it clear: nae chance.
All, the pathetic childish insults, is not going to change that.
That’s why independence must be achieved via Westminster elections.
Sorry if Wingers got such a thrill from indyref and want a repeat: It’s not going to happen under this UK Govt.
heedtracker said at 11:50am today:
“…….It is a lot of money for a dress………”.
Full details here:
INSIDER MAGAZINE
“………The gown, which reportedly costs $75,000 (£56,000 GBP), was part of haute couture house Ralph & Russo’s 2016 fall/winter collection……..”
That’s nice.
link to tinyurl.com
“………The gown, which reportedly costs $75,000 (£56,000 GBP), was part of haute couture house Ralph & Russo’s 2016 fall/winter collection……..”
Who the fcuk are Ralph and Russo? and how do I get myself into the market that flogs bits of cloth to the UKOK mega rich royals creeps, that want to blow stacks of cash on just the one dress?
Wish I had the royals arse licker gene sometimes, life must be so easy, for your average royals grovelers.
All, the pathetic childish insults, is not going to change that.
You’re a twat Colin. Where does it say Scotland’s indy ref2 is illegal Colin, you twat?
If just one of you Xmas tory yoon roasters and zoomers would back up your UKOK jibberjabber with references, we’d all be a lot further along.
Hopefully it was only a lend.
What are these Tory Royals thinking? They cause mental health problems.
They are supposed to be impartial not on the take.
Breeks,
Thank you, I hope you enjoy all the peace love and happiness that the season brings to you and to those you love.
Stop it coco…you are making a pure erse of yourself.
The WM gov HAVE ABSOLUTELY NEVER refused a Section 30 for indyref2.
You know why coco ?
Because the SG HAVE NOT ASKED FOR ONE YET.
WHEN they do, it WILL be granted. Just like last time, because the consequences of refusing means the end of the union.
Inconceivable as it is to your thick unionist braincell, that is the facts of the matter.
Here is another factoid…a WM GE cannot give a mandate for a referendum, the place for that is a Holyrood election.
This is common knowledge, even to you, coco, you have been told plenty times on here.
But hey ho…you keep dribbling pish and we will keep laughing at your delusions.
Dont bother responding coco…not indulging you any more you thick as pigshit clown.
Wonder where the Royals get the money for such extravagances?
Not any more
link to republic.org.uk
Boycott all britnat media.
Boycott all britnat media.
Twas the night before Xmas and the tory creeps were still whining. How comes this is still enough for BJ the clown, handed is big fat mottled airse by Russians, this week.
Asking for all the beeb Scotland gimps, and their minions next door at STV, on at least £55 grand a year MORE than their teamGB foreign sec:D
link to independent.co.uk
@Smallaxe
Good to see you. Wishing you and Mrs Smallaxe all the very best of the festive season. 🙂
RE: Voting?
Residency.Yes, it’s difficult. It’s also the right thing to do. It’s not simply winning. It’s how you win. The establishment parties and their practice of politics really should be a heads up as to the shit storm you build up over time when winning by any means necessary.
Or does Brexit, austerity, fractured society, bigotry, intolerance, exceptionalism and isolationism not strike folks as reason enough NOT to repeat their mistakes?
What we see in the UK today is a direct result of the politics of societal division. Me? I’m more of a hugger. I’ll hold my hand out and welcome folk from any point of origin or walk of life who want to work for a more socially just Scotland.
Bairns, not bombs and masses before classes every time.
Macart,
Thank you, my friend, I hope you and yours have a peaceful and joyous time over the festive season.
Big hugs and lots of love to you from Mrs S and myself.
🙂
People, not Profits, Not in our names shall War kill Weans!
What Scottish media?
indyref2 indyref2 …like a broken record. Building castles in the sky.
Get a life you fantasists, especially the foulmouthed heedtracker.
There won’t be one.
The SNP don’t want one, as the last time they lost.
The UK Govt won’t let them have one with a binding decision on the result, just in case they won.
The SNP have spent the last 30+ years peddling the indy in Europe dream. We won’t be in the EU by the time of any theoretical independence is achieved.
And the EU has become a fascist federal Super State. Who needs panzers and blitzkreig when you have the EU to achieve the same result? Ask Catalonians, if you don’t believe me.
There won’t be one.
The SNP don’t want one, as the last time they lost.
The UK Govt won’t let them have one with a binding decision on the result, just in case they won.”
Fine Colin the Xmas twat of btl WoS.
And so, Colin the Xmas twat, exactly why are you on here then, giving it UKOK vote NO btl WoS?
Seems like an odd way to go about your yoon btl stuff:D
“We have been very clear that now is not the time for another referendum on independence. In order for a referendum to be fair, legal and decisive, it cannot take place until the Brexit process has played out and it should not take place unless there is public consent for it to happen. This is a time to pull together, not apart.”
David Mundell, the Scottish Secretary, when asked at the manifesto launch what was meant by “until the Brexit process has played out,” said: “I don’t think anyone has a crystal ball as to how long the Brexit process will take but it’s quite clear it is not just the negotiations, it’s the transition; there’s an acknowledgement there’s going to be a significant transition period and an implementation period.”
Source: link to archive.is
🙂
Yes Colin the Xmas twat, you lot keep repeating your facts of yoon like but why keep on doing it?
Even if you can give the Law behind Fluffie’s stuff like,
“In order for a referendum to be fair, legal and decisive”
that would be loverely you Xmas twat Colin, of yoon Xmas’s or is it Xmases, past?
This is not btl the Daily Heil zoomer zone, Colin the Xmas twat, you are going to be asked about facts n shit.
But it is nice that you’ve dropped all and any pretence about a YES vote too Colin.
Funny how the truth will always out itself Colin. Come on Colin, you’ve finally outed Yoon tory self.
Let’s see you now swing free, like a real yoon tory in his Scotland region, you twat.
Fucking hell there’s two of them!
colin alexander @ 15:37@
Oh dear, you have surely been on the Christmas brandy early, dear chap!
Or are you just trying to take a RISE out of us? =grin=
(PS: Oddly, the Catalan independistas all want to remain in your “fascist superstate”, Colin. Wierd that. Confusin’ even, ain’t it? Just one of many inconvenient facts for you to digest, alas. Better stick to the brandy and leave off the posting, mebbe. That way you’ll feel better for it afterwards.)
English people who genuinely reside in Scotland should obviously have a vote on Scottish independence. By ‘genuinely reside’ I mean that their home in Scotland is their major and indeed their sole residence. There can be no question of denying any resident her or his democratic right to vote.
‘English Scots for Yes’, or whatever was the official name of the pro-Indy group composed of English-born people living in Scotland campaigning for independence in the 2014 vote, was one of the most heartening and dynamic success-stories of Indy1. Instead of lamenting about English-born people voting in Indy2, we should be encouraging this group with all our heart, and showing our wholehearted appreciation of it and its leaders.
Before someone jumps down my throat and says what kind of ‘success’ was that if 72% of English-born Scots still voted ‘No’in 2014, let me answer by saying it must have been at least the same kind of success as Alex Salmond had in 2014. Alex lost the referendum by a few per centage points, but he grew support for independence enormously during the campaign. At the start it was something like 29%; on polling day it was 45%. That is success … In fact, enormous success. As is the fact that pro-indy support has remained stable, and slowly rising since.
With regard to English-born Scots in 2014, the headline figure that should be highlighted is that 28% of then voted Yes. Not that 72% of them voted No. I don’t think anyone has reliable figures for it, but I’ll bet you that 28% represents a huge rise in the number of English-born Yes voters in the period between the beginning of the Indy1 campaign and the eventual vote in September 2014.
Alex Salmond grew the pro-Indy vote by something like 16 per centage points during that same campaign period. I expect ‘English Scots for Yes’ and their associates grew the pro-Yes vote in their English-born target group by at least the same amount, and probably more. At the beginning of the campaign I doubt if the number of ‘English Scots’ intending to vote Yes even reached double figures; by the end of that campaign, a massive 28% of them did so. That represents success, massive success … By any standards you wish to apply. A gain of something like 18, or 19 or maybe even 20 per centage points
over the course of the campaign.
I know it’s only a guess-timate – and if someone has proper and reliable figures for the matter, please do post them here: I am always willing to be corrected – but I think it’s undeniable that ‘English Scots for Yes’ was a great asset. Not only by what they achieved in voting terms. but by the spirit in which they made their contribution, and what it signalled for all of us. This was an important element in the birth of a truly inclusive Scotland, and of a pro-independence mentality fuelled not by historical resentments but by a genuine future vision of what our country could be, and should become.
We need that thoroughly positive vision now more than ever. The trolls who appear on here attempting to prevent genuine Scottish residents from exercising their political rights, as recognised and guaranteed by international law, are appealing to an archaic and stereotypical form of Scottish nationalism which is long past its sell-by date and, truth to tell, already dead in the water. It has no place in a future free and forward-looking Scotland.
In fact, I sometimes wonder if those attempting to stir up not just anti-English feeling but specific resentment against perfectly law-abiding English people who have chosen to reside in Scotland, are motivated by a desire to undo the excellent work done by ‘English Scots for Yes’ and other all-inclusive groups from across the whole pro-Indy movement. One of the things that scares thinking Unionists is that the Indy movement in Scotland is genuinely inclusive, and has nothing much to do with any form of the old-fashioned ‘blood and soil’ type of nationalism that some sections of the Unionist Press still presume to be its basis.
I was probably being over-generous when I said ‘presume’, there in that previous sentence, when I should have said ‘pretend’. They pretend modern Scottish nationalism is of the old ‘blood and soil’ variety because portraying it as such supports their purposes. They know it is not the case, but they want everyone to think it is so that they can thereby discredit it, portraying all of us as some kind of deluded savages on the fringes of civilization. It’s an old technique – tarring all your opponents with the same brush – which was used extensively by British media in colonial days, especially when the new independence movements were burgeoning, across Africa for example, in the 1950s. And before that, In India, and so on.
To get back to our 28% of English-born Scots who voted Yes in 2014, these are great people to have on our side, and that is a great5 base on which to build. Continually quoting the 72% who, understandably, voted No, is to miss the point – and the momentum – altogether.
We don’t need to grow that 28% by 72% in order to get where we want to be with this particular group of the modern-day Scottish population, namely people who were born in England but who really want to live in Scotland and, putting their money (and their lives) where their mouth is, have actually chosen to do so.
All we need to do is to grow what we have already got by a little bit more than another 20%. And that is what we should be concentrating on doing. This is a real target group and I am very sure all kinds of belonging to it can be won over.
We are surely not expecting all of them to vote for independence. It would be daft to expect such a thing. All we really need to aim at is half of them – or, more precisely, half plus one. And we shouldn’t listen, not even for a sercond, to the glass-half-empty doom-sayers who are sitting on their proverbial bums, doing nothing except staring at a big 72% sign sign on that half-empty glass, muttering to themselves again and again ‘it cannae be done …. it cannae be done …. we cannae win …. they’ll owercome us …. we dinnae stau’ a chance …. oh jings! oh naw!’
For Gawd’s sake, man, grow up! Get aff yer bum, and stoap sinking deeper and deeper intae yer own self-made midden of despond and despair … Get up oot o’ it, gie yersel’ a shake, and get gawin’ tae dae som’hin’ aboot it … The sun still gets up in the mornin’, and so should we … There’s plenty o’ good wurk tae get yer teeth intae, so forget the Lake o’ Despnd an’ get oan wi’ it!
And even if we don’t quite succeed in making the 50% plus 1 among this group, we can surely grow it, and grow it mightily, all the same. We won’t get 50% plus 1 in every group of the population – could we get that amongst Conservative-voting Scots, for instance? Unlikely … – but we can make real inroads into every group, which will bolster the core support. And we need to make such inroads – and have to try – because every vote is going to count.
Denying people their voting rights is a shameful suggestion, totally unworthy of the cause, and we should all repudiate it. As indeed the SNP always has done.
The job is to win people over – not alienate, and certainly not deny them their just rights.
Having said that, voting from holiday homes is another issue. My understanding is that, in law, it is allowed for those whose registered ‘holiday home’ is their principal or only residence in the UK, and who intend to make that address their permanent future abode. This seems to be tailored for UK citizens who work abroad but who have bought a property in the UK for the time when their employment abroad will cease, or when they will retire.
The principle is not bad, especially if the person pays his or her taxes in the UK. Perhaps that should be a further qualification required for voting from a holiday home: namely, that you make your tax declarations from that address. If applied rigorously, even according to present legal assumptions, I think it already means that you cannot register as a voter in two different places in the UK. You have to choose – and if that is not the case, it should be. I would go further: if you have a holiday home and another residence in the UK which is not a holiday home, it should only be from your principal residence that you can vote in any election. The idea of people voting multiply based on the ownership of multiple properties is obnoxious – perhaps it still exists in Northern Ireland? I don’t know; it use to, and I am not sure if it has been abolished – and a tool useful only to those who wish to gerrymander the results of elections. One man one vote doesn’t mean some people having more than one.
Maybe someone has more accurate information on holiday home voting? I think a lot of postal voting was on the basis of such properties in 2014 and, in most (but not all) such cases, fundamentally fraudulent. In the case where a person is genuinely working abroad, but intends to come back to Scotland afterwards and live there, and where he or she makes annual tax returns to the Scottish government on that basis, and indeed where that person owns no other property in the UK (all of which is easily traceable), that individual should be allowed to vote in Indyref2. All other holiday home owners should be barred from doing so, and both the Scottish government and the Electoral Commission, especially the latter, should be rigorous in applying these rules.
Enough – or maybe too much – said!
Enough – or maybe too much – said!
You also have like a gazillion Scots in England, who would probably like a vote on the homeland’s future too.
Lady Mone of Mayfair springs to mind. She is something.
@colin alexander
Ah Colin colin colin, you started off so plausibly with your contribution that the next Ref should be about Sovereignty for Holyrood, so that it could decide whether to lend powers to Westminster or not.
Then it turned into an SNP bashing contest worthy of Labour and that progressed to a Murdo Fraser and David Mundell style.
Then you become an adherent of UDI which did Catalonia such a lot of good.
Now you even quote David Mundell as your goespel according to Westminster, and call Independence supporters “fanatasists”, though I don’t know what a soft drink has to do with stuff.
You’re funny 🙂
Currently, there is no way of determining in law who precisely is, and who precisely is not a Scot. That is one of the reasons why the qualification for voting in the Indyref has to be residence, and why – further to that – the rules of what constitutes residence have to be clearly laid out, and applied fairly to everyone, across the board.
This is also the reason why those resident in England, and without any residential qualification in Scotland, even if they are indeed by some other measure Scots, and authentically consider themselves such, cannot vote in an IndyRef. This may b regrettable, but it is also inevitable, and in accordance with international law.
The SNP explained this thoroughly and on many occasions during Indyref1.
What does need to be done, especially in regard to holiday home owners, is further clarification as to what exactly constitutes authentic residency, such that voting rights in an Indyref have to be respected. What would apply to Lady Mone in that regard would apply equally to Rev. Stu Campbell and any other Scot living south of the border.
When i began the previous post with the word ‘currently’, I meant to add that this problem will be resolved when there is such a thing, in law, as Scottish citizenship. That will only happen after independence has been gained. At that point the Scottish government – or the Scottish Constitution, perhaps – will determine the voting rights of Scottish citizens, including those domiciled abroad.
@wull
Thanks for your two posts, you put things differently from but from the same point of view. A new Scotland has to be inclusive with fairness and equality at it’s heart.
Otherwise what’s the point of Independence?
wull @ 16:23,
Excellent posting, wull, and much plain good sense in it that we can all agree upon, I think.
Just one correction is needed, though. (There’s an awful lot of misunderstanding about voting about. =sigh=):
Responsibility for electoral registration neither belongs to the SG nor the Electoral Commission, even though the latter is responsible for policing the rules (which are set by Westminster). Responsibility lies with the local authorities. That is the weak link.
Judging by a comment made recently on the radio by the current head of the EC, I’m not sure that it is entirely happy with the consistency which is being applied throughout Scotland/England/Wales, even now that individual voter registration has been introduced.
I also understand that the SG is getting more powers in that regard, as a consequence of the Scotland Act 2016, but exactly what powers I don’t know. But the SG is (or recently was?) having a consultation on the question of issues such as eligibility. I believe that the SG’s current proposal, in fact, is to allow *all* permanent residents of Scotland to vote, irrespective of origin.
Perhaps someone else can elaborate…?
When I began my previous post with the word ‘currently’, I meant to indicate that this problem will only be resolved when there is such a thing as ‘Scottish citizenship’. That can only be established with the acquisition of independence. Once independence is gained, the Scottish Government – or, better still, the Scottish Constitution – will be able to define the voting rights of all Scottish citizens, including those domiciled abroad.
This will resolve, in law, the problem of who has the right to vote in any future Scottish referendum, on any topic whatever. But first, we must regain our independence, becoming once again citizens of Scotland and no longer of that rather badly cobbled-together entity, with all its legal anomalies and contradictions, known as the UK.
What does need to be done, especially in regard to holiday home owners, is further clarification as to what exactly constitutes authentic residency, such that voting rights in an Indyref have to be respected.”
This issue is solved now and is rolling along too. If you are registered to vote on the electoral register in say Chelsea and you have have shooting estate/open air slaughterhouse , up in your Scotland region, you CANNOT vote in Scotland, on anything at all.
Its as simple as that. Yes there are a lot of second home owners in Scotland, who reside in other parts of teamGB.
But they cannot vote in Scotland, elections and referendums, unless they remove themselves from the electoral register where they live permanently and register with the electoral registration thingee, in charge of registrations covering their second Scottish home.
The good word electoral register wise in Scotland is, that they are beefing up security checks, although much of the new style checking is mainly in Scotland only.
In other words, electoral registers are now talking to each other much more than they used to, and database tech is being beefed up too, maybe.
So there is ofcourse nothing to prevent said shooting estate owners from simply doing all of the above, in time for Scots indyref2, then doing it all again, straight after to vote back home.
That’s democracy.
A lot of its all based on trust, trusting us.
Electoral register people can only go by the data they have and are allowed. They are not credit checking agencies. All they have is other electoral registers. Maybe they should have much wider access to data, like credit agencies, even HMRC or the new Scottish one.
Like everything else, you get what you pay for.
In the scale of things, its probably the least important issue in the coming referendum.
Sorry Colin the Xmas twat, but Scots indy ref2 is coming:D
Thanks Robert Sutherland and Thepnr for the corrections and encouragement, all of which are much appreciated.
Apologies for re-posting half or more of my second post: it wasn’t coming up on my computer when I tried to find it back, so I thought I had lost it.
The third post does at least suggest, albeit vaguely, a further point, namely that the UK is a total of mess of absolute unclarity with regard to citizens’ voting rights. A patchwork, it seems to me, made from different threads of expediency at different times aimed to include or exclude, minimise or maximise the ability of certain groups to exercise any rights at all. As with the nationalty laws – think Mrs Thatcher – these were just patched together according to expedient, seeking to include some people and expel or repudiate others. There were no authentic pronciples, unless you count greed, maintaining hegemony or pure racism as ‘principles’.
This is the sort of thing we have to avoid and repudiate in a new and independent Scotland. It is also one of the major reasons why we have to get out of the UK, which is built on expediency and opportunism (and gain, therefore, and profit) irrespective of principle. I believe it is not simply Romanticism, buit realistic, and something operating at a fundamental level, to say that this kind of thing sticks in the Scottish craw.
Sure, there are plenty of Scots who compromised with it (at the risk of choking on their own thrapple) and made an uneasy alliance with their gut instincts for the sake of Mammon – plenty! And that is what we have to get away from, too. Namely, the things that strangle the authentic Scottish spirit. At bottom there is something in Scottish culture that is principle-dominated, which you don’t quite find in the same way – as a generality – among the English, though the English undoubtedly have their own qualities too.
I know what I am talking about there is hard to define, and it could be misunderstood, but I think there is something in it. It is not always a good quality, by the way – and might contribute to what makes others see us as ‘thrawn’, for example. Once we are onto something – dogs and bones – we don’t let it go too easily. So it can also be a great (or t least a ‘dogged’) quality as well …
Anyway, whatever the case, I think we really do need the clear lines of a constitution based not on fudge, but on the most luminous and clearly stated panoply of principles imaginable. I think that’s … simply Scottish!
@Wull and others
For me the criteria for voting is fairly simple in itself, and that is that those who contribute to Scotland and are affected by decisions made IN Scotland, for most of the year, should have the right to vote. The unemployed and pensionsers contribute, if not by tax or NI, then by spending in the economy, and hence VAT and income tax, as well as council tax and / or rent.
But it has to be a significant proportion of their annual spend, and the HMRC rule of 183 days seems fair to me, spend more than half the time (midnight being the HMRC point) here, and you get to vote. But also for those working abroad, if they keep their main residence in Scotland, then they get to vote, even though their economic activity is mostly abroad somewhere.
A simple declaration of residence would be enough, with strong penalites for falsification if proven. The HMRC for instance used to and perhaps still do, have a “No tax code” for those spending 183 days or more outside the UK, and there are double taxation treaties to prevent people being taxed twice. But if the HMRC find people cheating, and one single day claimed to be outside the UK but clearly in the UK such as passport check, speeding fine, or I guess credit card receipt, and then the no tax code is bye bye and all revenue is taxed.
Similarly for anyone falsifying their “residence” statement, penalties financial and ultimately imprisonment would be enough to deter, but it would need rigid prosecution.
Residence period – I’ve seen 2 years, 5 years, I’d probably go for one year and one week, to eliminate people here for just a year assignment or course, but include those here longer. Students at Uni – depends on where their main residence is I guess, a more tricky one for those who have an address in perhaps England, but spend most of the year here. They are mostly affected by Laws in Scotland though.
Holiday homers? Where’s their main residence, they get one vote,, and again a declaration of residence, and severe penalties if they are caught lying. Their personal contribution to Scotland is just 2 or 3 weeks a year. They don’t get to vote here.
Merry Christmas Colin@3.42
Hope Santa brings you the sepia tinted glasses, Old Spice, Brylcreem, tub of lard, and gurd (Victorian hoop and stick) you asked for. Do us a favour and demand the Tories bring back Rickets, Consumption and TB.
“Just like the Good old days innit.”
Oh Aye Indy Ref 2 is on its way, if you’re not happy then close the gate behind you at the border. You might get back in if you can see past your Christmas glasses.
Cheerio XX
OK, all you dedicated voting opinionistas, here’s your wee Christmas present from me (or the SG, more accurately), the current consultation on electoral reform:
link to consult.gov.scot
It opened just a few days ago, and ends on 12.Mar.2018. So plenty of time to recover from seasonal distractions and make your views known where they might really count…!
@yesindyref2
That’s a fairly accurate summary, but not quite. I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15.
I’ve always been an advocate of what some may call UDI, but is in fact the annulment of the marriage of two sovereign kingdoms.
You mention Catalonia. So, how did an indyref go when the nation state refuses to recognise it? It went nowhere.
I remain highly critical of the SNP. What have they achieved politically with such a huge membership? (Administration of public services is not what I am talking about).
What have they achieved with regard to achieving independence since 2014? Nothing.
They haven’t even tried.
I’ve always been an advocate of what some may call UDI, but is in fact the annulment of the marriage of two sovereign kingdoms.”
Course you do Xmas twat. Its right up your alley really, your sneaky creepy very dark alley of yoon Colin.
How you’ve got the nerve to go btl with your own sneaky creepy version of yoon in Scotland, is very amusing really.
Indyref 2 is illegal, you rage!
UDI is great you er, rant!
If anything underlines how creepy UKOK yoon culture is today in Scotland, its very hard core yoons like you Colin:D
@colin alexander: “You mention Catalonia. So, how did an indyref go when the nation state refuses to recognise it? It went nowhere.”
That’s misrepresentation of the reality Colin, their indyref wasn’t sanctioned, was obstructed by Spain, and marred by viiolence from the Spanish Guardia Civil. So nothing like Scottish Indy Ref 1, or what will be Indy Ref 2, probably early 2019, probably March, and quite possibly 14th March 2019.
I guess you’re looking forward to it almost as much as we all are!
@colin alexander
That’s a fairly accurate summary, but not quite. I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15.
You are an outright liar which is not of the least surprise to me. Your first post on Wings was on 4th Jan 2017 on this thread.
This is your first post. Unless you were posting under a different name which would not surprise me either.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Prove me wrong, just one example would do and I’ll humbly apologise.
@colin alexander
I’ll give you this Mr A at least you have been consistent since your first post LOL
If more and more “rule Britannia” Brexiteers continue their influx to retirement in “North Britain” – and are given the vote in any future referendum as soon as they arrive here- it’s a Yes vote that could become harder and harder to win.
@Thepnr
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Posted on April 27, 2015
was a WoS article by Stu, based on information supplied by me.
See also this:
link to youtube.com
I worked hard to get rid of John Robertson, who was a supporter of the Iraq War and vehement anti-independence campaigner.
But the credit goes to the people of Glasgow North West constituency for kicking him out.
@colin alexander
NOPE Colin, your lying again, you don’t have a post on that article. Have another go!
@thepnr
I don’t have a post on that article, because I supplied that info for the article.
So, Stu has known for years I’m not a fake.
Ask him, if you don’t believe me.
@colin alexander
“I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15”
That’s what you claimed, prove that your first post was before 2017.
cmon guys goodwill to all men & women — even tories….well maybe not..
Recharge batteries and lets fight for our independence.
The clock is ticking.
@thepnr
I supplied the facts about John Robertson’s false denials about voting FOR the Iraq War.
I researched and supplied the factual outline of the article.
Stu wrote it. However, I consider that my post too.
@coling alexander: “ because I supplied that info for the article. ”
Unless you’re Lindsay, that would appear to be false. Rev posted: “In fairness, I personally took almost no time on it. Lindsay’s the one who’s been burning the midnight oil to do it so far, in his usual Herculean manner.”
I kind of doubt you’re Lindsay, though you could be the first part of the alter ego.
@colin alexander
I also supplied info for an article on Wings but at least the Rev put my name as the author of the article.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@yesindyref2
I researched and sent the proof.
That proof then required to be verified by the WoS team ( I listed my sources for verification) and the article then written.
I never wrote the actual article.
I don’t take credit for that.
So, I have respect for how much time and effort goes into researching these types of articles Before they are even written.
I didn’t want any credit for the article then and I don’t want it now.
I have no political ego or ambitions
I pasted this one on my Twitter in 2015. Well worth another look:
link to s3.amazonaws.com
@Laughing Man
Yes you are a joke.
Error. This is the link:
link to captiongenerator.com
yesindyref2 says:
24 December, 2017 at 5:58 pm
Plenty of good ideas there, yesindyref2, which seem sensible enough, and fundamentally fair, to me. Many thanks for these suggestions.
They also seem to me ideas that are eminently ‘do-able’. The key point would be rigorous follow through, with sufficiently tough penalties to deter those tempted to cheat.
Fraudulent voting should be a criminal offence.
Dear god..coco will be claiming to be the Rev next…!!
What a wally !!
@colin alexander: “I’ve been posting on here since at least 2014 / 15”
Mmm, I did an advanced search on “colin alexander” site:wingsoverscotland.com” between 1 Jan 2015 and 31 Dec 2016 and no actual hits, just 6 hits with such as “colin alexander on Fit to be tied” which is a recent thread. Same with capital first letters.
Did it on yesindyref2 and there you go, my postings, same for a couple of people with 2 names.
It’s not looking good for you, Colin, and looks like thepnr has you bang to rights. Happy Christmas anyway!
A liar and a wanker. Who knew?*
*We all did, the minute the fool opened his gub on here this year.
Of course the ‘only’ way what he is claiming can be true is…if he admits his other ‘handles’ that he has been using. 😉
As a lapsed long time reader of The Scotsman much as it pains me I have to give them credit on this occasion as unlike the rest of the colonialist propaganda rags the paper actually reports the result of the poll.
At last time of looking it had generated over 3000 BTL comments.
I have not looked at any of them but judging on the past form of their swivel eyed loony brigade it is not difficult to guess what they will be saying.
@gus1940
In fairness the Herald did carry the story as well, I think perhaps they changed the URL, as comments seemed from the times on the day to be fairly thoughout with no gaps. But it had a low place on the website front page, not easy to find.