Fearing your own voice
So this one was interesting.
Firstly, of course, it’s more proof of the old pollsters’ adage that you can get 5-10% of respondents in a poll to vote for just about anything.
7% of Scottish Conservative voters in last year’s UK general election told us that they thought some form of LABOUR government would be the best possible outcome of such an election for Scotland, while at the same time 7% of Scottish Labour voters felt that Scotland would be better off under the Tories, but still voted Labour anyway.
(Which leads us inescapably to the logical conclusion that those two groups of people were deliberately and knowingly voting to harm Scotland.)
But more intriguing were the votes of the party loyalists (which in this case we’re using with a lower-case L although it may also apply with a capital one).
Because 19% – that’s almost half! – of Scottish Labour voters would prefer to see a UK Labour government that was dependent on support from the SNP than one which had a majority do whatever it wanted.
Conversely, just 26% of Tories wanted Scottish Tories to have any power in a UK Tory government. Nearly twice as many actively preferred to let their English cousins take care of everything than to let their OWN Scottish MPs have a meaningful say.
(And a rather disturbing further 17% of Tory voters, and 13% of Labour voters, simply didn’t know if their own party being in charge at Westminster would be the best thing for Scotland at all in any way, shape or form.)
But perhaps they just know their party’s Scottish representatives better than we do.
Odd.
I always thought of Unionists as the most caring and smart people.
But then .. maybe not.
I’m surprised even 2% of the SNP folk surveyed wanted Ruth’s clowns involved in any form of government.
But what does Henry McLeish think? I need to know.
“I’m surprised even 2% of the SNP folk surveyed wanted Ruth’s clowns involved in any form of government.”
I’m very surprised it’s that low. Remember, a lot of SNP voters – particularly in the rural North-East and Perthshire – came over from the Tories. Given a straight Labour-Tory choice I’d have expected more of them to go for the latter.
Hell –
7% of SNP voters don’t think austerity has gone too far.
link to archive.is
Its a funny old game.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Fearing your own voice So this one was interesting. Firstly, of course, it’s more proof of the old […]
We are led to believe by the metropolitan pundits that the UK is the world’s most sophisticated democracy. Be that as it may, the Scottish representation at Westminster might as well not be there for all the attention it actually receives in that pit of braying relics of England’s glory.
I fail to see the point of the SNP representatives turning up. They would make more of an impact by walking out, vowing never to return.
Dumb, Dumber and Lib Dums.
I think what the poll highlights is the amount of tactical voting that takes place amongst BritNats.
If the Borders is anything to go by, maybe the Labour-Tory confusion isn’t such a surprise.
Voters here (where the Liberals used to be a force, but Labour support small) were told by the Tories to vote for them to stop “another Referendum “. This approach seems to have gone quiet at the moment.
The ridiculous thing is that in the Council elections this Tory obsession led them to get control without a Manifesto and guess what, they adopted 18 of the 20 SNP commitments !!
(Which leads us inescapably to the logical conclusion that those two groups of people were deliberately and knowingly voting to harm Scotland.)
You could sell that T shirt all over Scotland, 2018.
Fearing your own voice right enough.
Love that last line. 🙂
There’s a horrible flaw in this poll. It treats “Scottish Tory MPs” as if they were a discrete group separate from the “Conservative majority” in the same way that SNP MPs are distinguished from either a Conservative or a Labour government at Westminster.
Notwithstanding the efforts of the media to convince us that Ruth Davidson is a real leader of a real party with a real group of MPs over which she exercises real authority, the real reality is that there are precisely NO “Scottish Tory MPs”. There are only British Tory MPs who have managed to get elected in Scotland (frequently with the help of British Labour voters).
Ruth Davidson has precisely NO authority over those British Tory MPs from constituencies in Scotland. They are all answerable only and fully to Theresa May and her Whips.
The phrases “dependent on the votes of SNP MPs” and “dependent on the votes of Scottish Conservative MPs” are used as if they refer to things which are directly and meaningfully comparable. That’s just plain wrong.
Given the average age of the Tory vote is 183 could it be that the question just confused them? If not then the Conservatives are in trouble. A house of cards waiting for a strong draught?
[…] a horrible flaw in this question from the latest Wings Over Scotland/Panelbase poll. It treats “Scottish Tory MPs” as if they were a discrete group separate from the […]
A consequence of tactical voting?
Tories really are most anti Indy. However, they do want Scottish influence at WM as per 26% wanting Ruth’s lot holding the balance.
Half of Liberals want Scottish influence, even if it’s SNP with a Labour government.
And 19% of Labour voters actually would prefer SNP involvement to a pure Labour victory.
As Stu points out, a lot of Unionist voters don’t hold an opinion on what is best given only a Unionist party can win. They weren’t asked what the though the outcome would be, they were asked for an opinion of what was best.
For me, all this means uncertainty and doubts about the effectiveness and fit-for-purpose-ness of WM, the Union, Unionist rule etc. among actual Unionist voters,
The figures are too high to be caused by the “vote for just about anything” effect.
My guess … 30% will never vote to end the Union, a further 10% will be hard to crack, and everyone else can be pursuaded Indy is better than WM.
” … just 26% of Tories wanted Scottish Tories to have any power in a UK Tory government. Nearly twice as many actively preferred to let their English cousins take care of everything than to let their OWN Scottish MPs have a meaningful say.”
This gets to hub of it. The belief that we’re not able to produce people who are effective statesmen/women and that we need English people to the charge on out behalf.
That’s a damning indictement on those people who think of themselves as Scots (or maybe they don’t).
Doinald MacKenzie says:
49% of them, yes definitely.
I wrote “they do want Scottish influence at WM as per 26% wanting Ruth’s lot holding the balance”
I should have wrote (to make the point I was trying to make) … “even some do want Scottish influence at WM …”.
Most Tories are totally anglicised. Their country is Greater England. They aspire to be just like ‘the rest of England’.
My point was, even some see the value of Scottish influence.
Which leads us inescapably to the logical conclusion that those two groups of people were deliberately and knowingly voting to harm Scotland.
Not really. They were presumably voting tactically for a unionist candidate and may have thought that any such was preferable for their view of future of Scotland . They may well be foolish or wrong, but you can’t say they are malicious.
In fact persuading such voters to vote tactically for the SNP for Westminster to keep out their usual rival, or at least keep them from an overall majority, should be one of the aims of SNP campaigning. Insulting them won’t help.
As to 49% of Tory voters preferring an overall majority rather than one dependent on Con MPs from Scotland, surely that is the normal response of a Party supporter who wants that Party to have as big a majority as possible? Presumably you wouldn’t argue that wanting the SNP to have a majority of more than 1 at Holyrood meant that a voter didn’t trust their local SNP MSP. The only surprise is that it was as high as 26% who wanted SCon to have that balance of power.
(Many of the Con and Lab voters who now don’t know what they want will be those who are now supporting a non-Lab/Con Party or don’t know how they would vote: 17% of Con and 19% of Lab in the latest December Survation)
Let’s not kid ourselves these unionist politicians are Scotland’s enemies they all want to keep Scotland ruled by Westminster the last thing they want is honesty or fair play because it shows them up for the kind of people they are selfish it is a true saying those who are most enslaved are those who do not realise they are enslaved vote SNP vote for honesty fair play and FREEDOM
With all respect to Stu it shows just how pointless it is being a LibDum.
It makes you wonder whether there might be a market in EWNI for the SNP to stand to hoover up the votes of those who want to be involved in politics but cant stand the hypocrisy of Labour and Conservative.
“There’s a horrible flaw in this poll. It treats “Scottish Tory MPs” as if they were a discrete group separate from the “Conservative majority” in the same way that SNP MPs are distinguished from either a Conservative or a Labour government at Westminster.”
That’s a feature, not a flaw.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if the traditional labour voters who voted tory were disappointed to find they had been landed with a tory government.
Roger Mexico, you’re insulting our intelligence, but what’s new.
Bring back Colin A, he’s my kind of yoon nutcase.
49% of Tory voters in Scotland see absolutely no difference between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. It’s all the same to them from Land’s End to John O’Groats. I encountered that ‘we’re one country’ view several times from Tories canvassing for the SNP last year. It’s more significant that 26% or 1 in 4 could be turned because they see a Scottish dimension worth defending.
If there was the option of a hung parliament with the SNP holding the balance of power, the results may have been a bit different.
How can anyone in their right mind look at the State of the UK as run by Westminster and think to themselves “This is pretty good”,
With that in mind ,I would say that anyone who votes Conservative or Labour most certainly does not have Scotland interest at heart,. I rather think they have Party interest at heart more than any other consideration.
Many things tie people to particular party affiliations. Family,job,friendships,social clubs, work business, unions. tradition.sociology demographic factors The list is endless.
Thus, many toe a party line regardless of how much lack of insight they may have on the eventual outcome of these actions.
So in summary. Some are actively destructive towards Scotland. Some are ambivalent, and some are just sheep to be shorn as Party needs require.
‘we’re one country’
I have to listen to, “we’re one planet humans” now, ergo all nats are bad, not merely Scots.
Quite a lot of filthy rich tories reach for that Con’s con too, why change, we’re all one world, nats are bad where er you travel, first class:D
Or they wheel out Quebec, to beat the SNP out of us. Quebec is apparently a great triumph over narrow nats and our narrow nat ways.
@Doinald MacKenzie says:7 January, 2018 at 12:40 pm:
“That’s a damning indictement on those people who think of themselves as Scots (or maybe they don’t).”
They do not think of themselves as Scots. They think of themselves as British – even although there is not such a country or Kingdom of Britain because Britain is a geographic term for the British Isles that includes three non-Westminster controlled Crown Dependencies and a republic and republics cannot ever be parts of a Kingdom, United or otherwise.
Their second bit of idiotic thinking is that the terms The United Kingdom, Britain, Great Britain and England are all synonymous terms for a unified country.
Thus in their befuddled minds they are British/United Kingdom/English people from England’s Scottish region.
For what it is worth I think we have to get the message out there that Westminster has betrayed the union not the SNP
The SNP is challenging the Westminster betrayal of the union
Westminster only looks after a London elite not the country
Westminster talks about the queen of England not the union
Westminster only understands history from a London perspective
This reverses their argument
All Unionists want Scotland to deteriorate badly and the only work they actually do is to that end so’s they can make promises to deliver us from the vile SNP
Promises they have consistantly made to Scotland and have NEVER delivered and have no intention of ever delivering
Independence from England would be good for England because once they saw how Scotland prospered they’d start having a rethink about the way England’s treated in favour of London and make their own politicians serve their country like the SNP serve ours
Dr Jim says:
7 January, 2018 at 1:58 pm
All Unionists want Scotland to deteriorate badly and the only work they actually do is to that end so’s they can make promises to deliver us from the vile SNP
UK economics are regional though, look at how filthy rich the south east of England is.
South east of England is so rich today, its almost the richest region in the world. Clearly your average teamGBist doesn’t sell teamGB like that, in Scotland especially.
So instead, yoon culture boosts and boasts, UK is the world’s fifth biggest economy, so vote NO, for ever.
Much of this is all down to one man, the most unpopular Prime Minister ever, Crash Gordo.
Life isn’t fair but Crash has now retired to his manse in Fife, surrounded by Scots with fcuk all, as he’s rakes in the cash mountain he’s so rightly earned.
Kirkcaldy must be so proud of Crash, skint but proud.
Slightly o/t but just came across this meme on Facebook.
What’s all this media frothing about a crisis in NHS Scotland over the Christmas holiday?
Actually, this total subservience of Scottish Tories to the Union is relatively new. In stark contrast to Labour which, apart from its very earliest phase, was heart-and-soul centralist and top-down in true state-control Socialist tradition.
Since the time of Walter Scott, Scottish Tories had a definite Scottish dimension. There may have been a lot of chinless wonders stalking the glens and moors (as per Chris Cairns’ caricature yesterday), but they did hold their traditions dear. There were almighty fusses, for example, about interfering with Scottish military dress and tradition with the Army reforms of the early 1900’s.
That all seems to have changed around Thatcher’s time. The Tories morphed from being “conservatives” (ie. maintaining traditions) to becoming mercantilist radicals. The plain opposite, in fact. Everything not bolted down was sold off. (Even some things that were bolted down.) One Dickens quote often appeared then, that she “knew the price of everything and the value of nothing”.
Globalism has also played a part. Whereas we have responded (in a historic way, I believe) by wanting to bring a greater degree of autonomy back into our lives via independence, these neo-cons have only seen their relative prosperity coming under threat and have consequently retreated to the safety blanket of the British State. Which itself ironically is busily sailing up a historic sh*t creek with a disintegrating paddle.
Peter Bell is right. Ruth Davidson’s little band has nothing distinctive whatever to offer Scotland, and neither does the little corporal at their (purely-notional) head. Having maxed out on fear with “no referendum”, subsequent events are proving her empty of any real ability to offer Scotland a hopeful way forward. The best she can muster is servile forelock-tugging to a Greater England, and that’s all the wee ghillie will ever be capable of.
Our very survival as a distinct culture is now at stake. Hopefully even some Scots with a more small-c conservative outlook will wake up to that reality in sufficient time.
OT
As we move to a referendum to leave the brit union in the next year or two should we take stock as to what we did right (I am referring to all pro-independence supporters) and where we didn’t do as well in 2013-14.
The new BBC Scotland 6 will gear even more to follow its remit as a brit state broadcaster, the written/ electronic news media are 99% against us.
Do we repeat what went before or do we tackle things anew. Potential pro Supporters are still only 14-15yrs old our elderly part of the equation are pro Westminster and unlikely to change for their grandchildren never mind their great-grandchildren sake. There are still folk who didn’t vote in 2014 to be persuaded and maybe some No’s who now realise they were lied to and wish to vote for hope. Personally we cannot leave it to the SNP alone. We need labour, Greens, ?lib-dems and undecided support to win. Our goal is near but not conclusive.
An inconvenient truth there, BDTT…!
Today, Theresa May is still trotting the Emporors new clothes line out, about the NHS being well funded and actually doing well …!!
What is wrong with the English public ???
They KNOW this is utter GARBAGE yet come polling day,, off they toddle to vote Tory, then start moaning about the poor service of the NHS etc…..!!
With the power at WM in English voters hands, and cognitive dissonance or political Stockholm Syndrome in control of said population, Scottish Independence is an absolute MUST or we will suffer badly.
WM is the disease, Independence is the only known cure. Take the Yes pill, or suffer the consequences. This WILL be our last chance for a very long time imo.
YES to independence.
YES to Scotland.
YES to a better future for ALL Scots (even you unionists).
You know it makes sense.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
7 January, 2018 at 2:59 pm
Actually, this total subservience of Scottish Tories to the Union is relatively new
Scottish tories, at the top are fascists. Here’s one. Takes half a million EU quid for his private open air abattoir in his Scotland region, contributed as much as any neo fascist roaster at the BBC, to keep Scotland down and out of the EU.
link to newstatesman.com
These neo fascists aren’t kidding around but he does like ogling little girls in their underpants too. Just ask any Heil perv, sorry, reader.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Your description of what the Conservative party has become is very accurate.
However, I think there is a disconnect between what many Tory voters in Scotland believe their party represents and what the reality is.
Younger ones often swallow the whole neocon, Thatcherite, free market thing as desirable. London spawned the ultimate system, in their minds. They will never be persuaded away from it.
Older ones do seem to believe their party is still the one nation entity of their youth.
These older conservatives still see themselves as the opposite of “centralist and top-down in true state-control Socialists”. If you ask them to describe the society they would like to see, it all sounds reasonable, but socially conservative as you might expect. But they do have their ideas of society being fair and decent. That is a far cry from the true devil take the hindmost Tory Party agenda.
They fail to see the disconnect. They have faith in something which just isn’t there for them. And in their minds it’s still all tied up in the Union and Britain. Perhaps a version from decades ago.
They seem so far removed from reality it will be a challenge opening their eyes! But I certainly wouldn’t give up on the older Tory voter who isn’t rich.
It proves to me a significant number of labour voters are not fixed on them and are/have voted SNP.
They are our potential yes swing to us.
A Corbyn gov with SNP. Seems a real contradiction of terms.
It could work look at Cameron and Clegg.
Actually, I have a wee apology to make. Back several recent threads ago I was gently differing with Peter Bell about my perceived lack of cohesion in the “Yes” camp (which is still true, I believe) and comparing it unfavourably with my perceived great cohesion of the Unionist camp. Well, subsequent events have certainly proved me wrong on the latter score! (Not least if my understanding is correct that it was a dissident Unionist who did the leaking.)
While at times we have been guilty of losing focus on that one precious thing by which everything else becomes possible, we (and I don’t mean just the royal “we”) have been failing to recognise that the BritNat camp is itself under extreme stress due to the tidal forces of Brexit.
Hence some of the results of this poll, perhaps. People are finding it harder and harder to choose one convenient “package” for their beliefs/votes.
I believe that’s why it would be a categorical error to delay a push for indy until 2020 or beyond (as those in the Bella camp, for example, still seem to desire). Brexit is causing stress and dissention within the BritNat camp, and to let all that settle down again before finally stirring ourselves into action would be to throw away a truly once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
Brexit may offer the “yes” movement a real chance to put wedges into our opponents for a change, with swivel-eyed BritNat Leaver splitters such as “Unity UK” jettisoning SIU’s paid-for LibLab shills and going full-out on their own, thereby potentially alienating the many moderate former “No-Remainers”, who can in consequence be won over to indy.
This’ll leave a mark.
link to derekbateman.scot
galamcennalath @ 15:32,
What you say about older conservative voters is very true, and had occurred to me even as I was writing. I imagine that these are the very people whose bubble is being most sustained by the BBC “togetherness” strategy.
How to deal with it is the problem we haven’t (as yet) cracked. Possibly the pessimists are right, and they are unreachable. Perhaps it would even be cruel to shatter their fond illusions about the society they erroneously believe they are protecting. The best we have been able to come up with so far seems to be to find some discrepancy, however small, between what they believe and harsh reality, and use that disconnect to “prick the bubble”.
Maybe though we also need a concerted push from the younger generation, including those old enough to understand even if themselves still too young to vote, to persuade their elderly relatives that they need and deserve the bequest of a more hopeful future.
O/T
Not content with regularly inflicting live English Football on us at peak viewing times I see that our not so wonderful state broadcaster is treating its Scottish Viewers with 30 minutes of The Draw for The English FA Cup at 7pm tomorrow on BBC 2.
Why do we put up with these bastards when we are being continually shat upon by them?
“Because 19% – that’s almost half! – of Scottish Labour voters”..
I am still scratching my head over that arithmetic, Rev.
What did I miss?
That’s because theTruth has Power and they fear the Truth.
We look forward to an Independant Scotland,where no-one fears theTruth and the Truth fears no-one.
Indyref2 is coming,true that.
#Truth’sOnFire
@Graham King
Just the Revs wee joke referring to the Herald in a previous article describing 38% as “almost half”. The blue link “almost half” will take you to the article.
For future reference anything coloured blue is a link.
Yoons just shout “SNP BAAAD 2018” as they have no idea on anything.
Same old, Same old,
Simples.
O/T
Murdo Fraser shouting from the rooftops SNP broken manifesto
May will not bring back fox hunting it was in her manifesto will he have anything to say about this I hope someone in the SNP will challenge him on it,
Briandoonthetoon at 2.56pm
Well done to Scotland’s NHS personnel!
A wee o/t.
Highly recommend Jonathan Pie on you tube.
One of the good guys.
The majority of Scottish born Scots identify as Scots-only (roughly 75%, from memory). This situation has come about since the 1980s, reflecting a general dissatisfaction with Westminster and a growing desire for self-governance, IMHO However, society is surprisingly politically conservative, due to our shared cognitive processes, particularly the way in which we assess risk. The ways most of us gain knowledge and understanding is another major contributor to poor judgement.
British nationalism must not be allowed to poison the water of knowledge, the next time Scotland debates how to govern itself. International observers are a must, especially to keep the BBC in check! Their particular brand of FUD is especially insidious, as it comes with a royal seal of approval so is generally considered wholesome and credible. However, the BBC made great effort to sell Farage and the right-wing populism that delivered Brexit. The BBC are a threat to the continued health of Scotland’s civil society!
N.B. The Tory party and British nationalism, is essentially the articulation of English utilitarianism, which is intrinsically skeptical of social justice and human rights. British nationalism is largely a vehicle for blood-and-soil sentiments and neo-liberal “market solutions” (see Brexit).
Sir Roger Scruton: How to Be a Conservative
link to youtube.com
link to faculty.virginia.edu
link to cds.nyu.edu
Surveys I doubt if anyone ever tells the truth in these pieces of tripe , everyone has an agenda when responding to these surveys .
On an entirely different Theme, the National I used to subscribe to the online edition , until SIU Scotland in Union pitched their tents and set up camp in their comments section of every single item published ,
Despite running stories about the antics of SIU the Nationals editorial staff have been posted missing and allowed it to become sometimes worse the than the Scotsman & Herald , the same nutters are allowed to push the same pish every day .
I haven’t felt the same about the media since I read ‘Flat Earth News’ by Nick Davies
link to tinyurl.com
a good few years ago.
I always meant to read his ‘Hack Attack’ but I think I might find it too depressing.
I’m not sure if the SNP could do anything about the media. Probably best to just let them get on with it and rely on people being bright enough to start asking questions. Being that they are not exactly subtle I doubt if you would need to be that bright to suspect something strange is going on.
PS Anyone read ‘Hack Attack’ by Nick Davies?
Some interesting comments on Amazon
link to tinyurl.com
It would be good to hear individual SNP and Green politicians speaking out against anti-Scottish bias in the media. Even better if some would say they don’t pay the bbc tax or pay for britnat newspapers.
What is this, that all of Scotland is talkin’ aboot…? “A Big Bus”
This one has been refurbished and is available for hire:
link to youtube.com
Top speed 350 miles per hour.
It has two wings.
Tories FTOV.
“I’m very surprised it’s that low. ”
Perhaps those in the SNP that were Conservative went back to them, for the Union. 14% SNP voters voted NO apparently in 2014, according to Ashcroft.
@RJS 4.02pm.
If you think Bella are bad for punting the wait until 2020 line, (i no longer read it to be honest) then you should read the insane ramblings of Steve Arnott at The Point.
Now there are people with no idea what the hell they want, despite claiming to be pro indy/socialists.
They are obsessed with pushing for a new mandate in 2021…a move we all know is EXACTLY what EVERY unionist wants us to do.
Here is my response to his recent drivel (not posting his pish, but you will get the idea by my response.
………….
“Not for the first time, you deliver a steaming pile of shite.
FACT. The SG has a LEGAL MANDATE from the SOVEREIGN PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND to hold an independence referendum.
FACT. The SG has a LEGAL MANDATE from the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT to hold an independence referendum.
FACT. A section 30 order is NOT permission to hold a referendum.
There is NOT A SINGLE UK LAW which can stop the SG holding a referendum.
The section 30 is a tool which allows an agreement to be reached by both WM and Holyrood which makes the referendum result legally binding.
This is an anomaly in referendums, it is actually the norm that referendums are ‘advisory’.
Example, the EU referendum was 100% legally advisory. WM could LEGALLY have IGNORED the result.
If a section 30 is refused, then the uk gov are in direct breach of the Act of union and treaties of union.
This is because, the Scottish PEOPLE are SOVEREIGN, and the United kingdom is LEGALLY a Union of 2 EQUAL kingdoms, England and Scotland, so one country cannot subjugate the other and claim to honour the treaty.
Throw in the United Nations charter which clearly states that….
……….
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
…………
That means, “Now IS the time”.
Read the whole relevent charter here…link to un.org
………….
Now, when the SG hold a referendum without a section 30, and it is a resounding Yes result, Scotland becomes independent in 2 ways in my opinion.
1. We declare the referendum as valid as it is the SOVEREIGN WILL of the SOVEREIGN Scottish people and the EU/UN accept that.
2. The EU/UN do not accept it initially, so the SG ask a court to affirm the SOVEREIGNTY issue and the result MUST LEGALLY STAND.
Now, without a section 30, WM cannot get involved in any way with a SG referendum.
If they try to campaign without a section 30, then they are legally sunk if they try disregard the result later, as that breaches UN rules on a people’s right to self determination. You take part by agreement or you stay 100% out of it.
WM can be part of the process (section 30) or ZERO part of the process, there is NO middle ground.
And THAT is why Cameron agreed to the Section 30 last time, and that is why WM will 100% agree to the same this time.
The referendum will be held AFTER the (EU) deal is known and BEFORE the deal is ratified.
That has ALWAYS been the plan.
…………
As for your 2021 nonsense, the only people who want to aim for 2021 are UNIONISTS.
Why would Scots vote to give Holyrood a mandate in 2021 for a referendum, when they failed to use the mandate gained in 2016 ???
That is electoral insanity, which is exactly why unionists are so desperate to “wait till 2021″.
So, you lot at The Point are either unionist 5th columnists or just fucking stupid beyond belief.
Care to elaborate which” ?
……….
If Mr Pfeffers sees glaring faults in that assessment in my previous post, i am happy to be corrected for future accuracy.
Nicola reported in the Telegraph …
” Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of breaking a promise to put her independence plans “on pause” after she warned only days into 2018 that Tory Brexit plans meant breaking up Britain “must remain an option”. “
I don’t recall any promise not to have IndyRef2!
I certainly do recall a promise to have IndyRef2 if Brexit goes pear shaped.
Although the BritNats and there loyal dead tree scrolls might wish otherwise, a hard Brexit means an IndyRef2. I do wish they would stop pretending to not understand that.
link to archive.is
Actually, ANY Brexit = Indyref2.
The Scottish Tories are whipped by the UK party, but reliant on Davidson and Co for selection and campaigning. So if they really hack off the Scottish Conservatives, they’re out next election – in theory.
So that’s 26% (31% eliminating don’t knows) of Conservative voters, or 43% including don’t knows – or a majority of 50% to 49% including the Labour with or without SNP help, who are ripe for plucking for the cause of Independence if as expected, the furtive thirteen continue to fail to perform or “be strong” for Scotland.
Surprising and good news.
Many of these 17%, 13% & 31% don’t know Scottish voters are up for grabs.
Though fair play also to the 21% SNP Scottish voters above who voted dinnae ken, cause that’s completely understandable when there is no available answer option vote for your party to CELEBRATE an outright majority WIN, under this so-unaptly-named, United Kingdom scenario agenda.
Though that scenario is possible in an iScotland.
For those o independent mind.
You’re going to be an iScot.
Congratulations!
geeo says:
That’s certainly my personal stance.
However, I accept that Nicola is a much better strategist than I. More careful, and less rash! And of course she knows things I don’t.
Perhaps she has been gambling all along that the Tories won’t have a soft (in single market) Brexit. So it will end up hard anyway. And this will harden attitudes against the Union and she will have appeared highly reasonable.
I think that is true because a soft Brexit won’t keep the true Brexiteers happy. They will just keep campaigning to leave ‘properly’. Hard it will be.
Maybe she is serious about no IndyRef2 with an unlikely soft Brexit. Because it would be harder to sell, and win. But I still say that won’t happen.
In Nicola we trust. To paraphrase US faith.
We have to!
SNP do not attack our endlessly ghastly media, even gutter press, Heil, Express, SUN, The Gruaniad, because they are this state’s, our state’s, 4th estate.
Its like how you never hear the UK military never ever being criticised. Contrast with this the monumental slagging our incredibly shite NHS gets all the time from BBC Scotland.
Its not by chance, its all about power constructs of states, like ours.
@geeo at 7:09 pm
Well said.
@Robert Graham “the same nutters are allowed to push the same pish every day”
Two things there. First is that much of it is blatant DM or Express style pish which does our cause no harm, and the second is that it’s mostly easy to reply to, the problem being there’s not enough pro-indy posters on the forum. Perhaps there are too many people dumb enough to read Rock and his ilk, and their rancid ravings.
The National is crying out for support and don’t get it.
Hi Cactus at 6:51 pm.
“What is this, that all of Scotland is talkin’ aboot…? “A Big Bus”
This one has been refurbished and is available for hire:
link to youtube.com“
Never mind that example of fictional hardware – go for the real thing!
@me at 7:21pm
Now Express running exactly the same story, same words.
Either Express or Telegraph are plagiarising, or it’s from another common source.
The National is crying out for support and don’t get it.
The National’s biggest problem is that its sitting on the same awful shit dripping newsstands as all the rest of the UK shit rags.
Its that simple. Would you put your hand in on open sewer to retrieve something, on the off chance it’s not just another big turd, all about how shite Scotland is, how wondrous the royals are, how fcuked we all are, unless we vote tory scumbags…?
ew.
Evenin’ Brian Doonthetoon ~
Cheers to the Costello family:
Would look good with a couple of retractable side awnings attached.
Let’s call them wings.
O/t. Why don’t the SNP convert the majority of older people to the indy cause by promising that within one year of Scotland regaining independence that “Old age pensions would be raised to at least the European Union average”.
I think that promise would be a game changer.
After all British pensions are amongst the lowest in the European Union.
Check this splendid super vehicle out Brian Doonthetoon ~
Rememberin’ y’all… (comin’ in hot at 60 seconds):
link to youtube.com
A Winged Winnebago 🙂
It is said that yer voice is like yer vote… SO it therefore appears that many previous no voters fear their own vote, a this time a round.
O/t. Why don’t the SNP convert the majority of older people to the indy cause by promising that within one year of Scotland regaining independence that “Old age pensions would be raised to at least the European Union average”.
Because they do not trust the SNP and they do not trust the SNP because guys like Gordon Brown told them not to in 2014, and he told that they would lose the pension they have already because Scotland on its own could not afford it, which must be true because BBC Scotland says so too.
UK gov also told them that and the crew what produced this level of state made Project Fear were then given UK civil service awards, impartially,
link to civilserviceworld.com
Mario..”Pisani said: “In the Treasury, everyone hates you. We don’t get thanks for anything. This is one occasion where we’ve worked with the rest of Whitehall.
“We all had something in common, we’re trying to save the Union here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”
Here’s the great man, no idea if he’s still a UKOK civil servant.
link to mariopisani.com
@Heedtracker at 8.24pm says
“Mario..”Pisani said: “In the Treasury, everyone hates you. We don’t get thanks for anything. This is one occasion where we’ve worked with the rest of Whitehall.
“We all had something in common, we’re trying to save the Union here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in.”
Mario Pisani can piss off.
@Heed: “Would you put your hand in on open sewer to retrieve something, on the off chance it’s not just another big turd, all about how shite Scotland is, how wondrous the royals are, how fcuked we all are, unless we vote tory scumbags…?
Yes, yes I would, if it brought us one step closer to Independence.
“ew.”
Yes, it is like that at times, but the trick is keeping the heid, but persisting.
Don’t let them get away with anything, but there’s only so much the very few who bother posting these days on MSM forums, can do, as many others have been taken in by “boycott the MSM so it goes bust in 20 years”, and now let the Unionists get away with, well, whatever they want, frankly, totally unanswered, with Indy Ref 2 IN A LITTLE OVER ONE SINGLE YEAR“, long before any “boycott” has any affect at all.
Ask yourselves this question: Who gains from that?
Clue: it’s not the YES campaign.
I byt the National. Once read I leave it on the train or more often the bus. I usually have to arrange the news stand as it is hidden behind the torygraph or racing times. Deliberate I’m sure.
If heedtracker doesn’t want to get his hands dirty try wearing gloves or stop greetin about it.
We have enough greetin on here by the doomsayers but then maybe that’s what they love doing on behalf of the other side.
Get your hands dirty or fcucked up?
get my drift. Apologies Rev on a Sunday.
It can be productive to put a copy of The National on top of the Daily Record, Daily Mail and Daily Express. I get away with it most days…
@Hamish100
I found in one place, an express branch of a supermarket chain, just blethering like, as is my wont, that the guy at the till was a YESser, and I pointed out The Nationals were hidden. Whenever he’s on shift, they’re not 🙂
One thing about the SNP, they have a record of keeping their promises.
The older section of the population of Scotland are not all stupid.
When it is repeated to them eventually the message will sink in.
What has Scotland got to lose, lots of Scots never live to collect their pensions because of our short life expectancy.
It would also be a vote gainer if the SNP paid the old age pension much earlier than England, post indy.
At the end of our working life, everyone is entitled to a decent existence.
It would show the world that an independent Scotland values old people.
Rev: “because 19% – that’s almost half…”
Made me smile.
@galamcennalath 7:21pm
Thanks for the archive.
Good to read Nicola preparing the ground. It’s right that the SNP have be seen to be trying to keep the so-called united kingdom in the EU. No-one, not even rabid British nationalists, can claim the SNP hasn’t tried.
Now, in 2018, it’s equally right that the SNP concentrates on Scotland and its future independence.
The rabid britnat press will be frothing at the mouth tomorrow – good. People in Scotland must be made aware of the importance of 2018 for Scotland. If glancing at britnat newspaper stands keeps indyref2 in the public eye, again, good.
Britnats have only the same 2014 Project Fear garbage to rely on. Let them advertize their anti-Scottish agenda again and again.
Get your hands dirty or fcucked up?
get my drift. Apologies Rev on a Sunday.
I am not saying do not buy anything. Its an industry in Scotland that is so radioactively gross, people just do not buy it anymore.
Products and industries do go tits up, its part of business. UKOK hackdom’s certainly delivered the coupe de gras to a lot of once mighty industries, all for their tory masters too.
They cling on though, subsidised by the BBC, is the latest multi million state handout fraud on our nascent democracy, all trousered by their filthy rich owners, who hate Scottish democracy almost as hard as they hate paying tax. Or why do billionaire owners of shit rags in Scotland need BBC cash, to hire even more tory hacks?
They probably cling on, their liggers and gimps will be wheeled out by BBC Scotland again, as UKOK talking heads, to destroy Scottish independence, again.
My personal chancer/fav is this guy,
Severin Carrell Retweeted
Libby Brooks
?
Verified account
@libby_brooks
Jan 1
Read @LabourRichard on how young Scots are returning to Labour, the trouble with Nicola Sturgeon & why he’s not a Corbynista
The Graun treats the whole of Scotland like it just does not exist, but he was a regular vote NO or else gimp for BBC Scotland, Gordon Brewer OBE loves him very very much indeed
So buy The National.
yesindyref2,
“Perhaps there are too many people dumb enough to read Rock and his ilk, and their rancid ravings.
The National is crying out for support and don’t get it.”
8,000 buy the fake “independence supporting” The National.
The VAST MAJORITY of independence supporters are clever enough to recognise a fake.
Are you claiming that apart from the 8,000, the rest of independence supporters are dumb?
Iain said
“Old age pensions would be raised to at least the European Union average”.
Agree that message might resonate with a few No voting pensioners,and is an important thing to aspire to in any case.
Throw in lifetime free Kanga pants and it could be a landslide.
Iain,
“The older section of the population of Scotland are not all stupid.”
The vast majority of them are British Nationalist above everything else, including a better future for their children and grand children, as they demonstrated by voting No in 2014.
Don’t waste a second or a penny trying to convince them.
Same applies to the selfish middle classes, English migrants and the thugs.
A Yes majority can only be achieved by convincing more of the lower and under classes of society to turn out to vote Yes.
Time and resources are very limited.
The Yes campaign last time wasted both in their doomed campaign to convince Tories in the ‘SNP heartlands” to vote Yes.
I see, Rock, that you didn’t take onboard the idea of you being a tad more positive in the cause of Scottish independence in this new year.
Ah well, as they say, a leopard can’t change its spots.
I cant recall if in any of the previous polls the Tory voters in particular and pubic in general were asked if they would vote Tory if a Tory Scottish government abolished free personal care, free travel passes, free tuition fees, free prescriptions, etc. It would be interesting to test their response to the removal of each benefit as we might find that some are more personal to the Tory “takers “than some others.
Rock says:
7 January, 2018 at 9:38 pm
yesindyref2
Thought that this might winkle you out from under your rock.
All UK press is a dying trade now. That’s why the BBC just threw them another bail out lifeline, In Scotland its their ball aching fury at everything and anything good happening in Scotland, from that new Forth Bridge to the NHS, god only knows what its like working front line NHS Scotland, with patients arriving frightened and enraged by massed ranks of beeb Scotland gimps alone.
But really its the web. Why hand over hard cash to neo fascist nutter billionaires like Rupert Murdoch, when there are infinitely better news sites online, free?
Is the National going to get one of the BBC’s free “local democracy reporters?
What an amazing surprise that Scotland’s hacks are getting the most of the BBC’s free “democracy reporters” and you have to hand it to the charlatans, for that “democracy reporter” shyte too, very tory beeb gimp.
link to bbc.co.uk
Other news, watch how the broadsheets and BBC news, r4 especially, are now endlessly smearing Facebook.
Its not because beeb gimps don’t like Mark Zuckerberg. He’s extremely rich, normally they’d be instructing us to worship him too.
Its merely because Facebook is now taking broadsheet ad revenue, because advertisers can see how ineffective their ads are in UKOK shit rags, almost instantly.
Say you’re a state national airline, for New Zealand perhaps and you place ads in Scottish tory papers like the Herald. You wait for seat sales after the campaign, nothing happens.
You place them in Facebook, sales jump.
Our BBC masters can hand over tens of millions to Scottish hackdom all they like, its only the beeb gimp version of pissing in the wind.
@BDTT: “Ah well, as they say, a leopard can’t change its spots.”
Or in the case of Rock, a spot can’t change its leotards.
Ew indeed.
‘Newspaper’ articles. There needs to be legislation to control their excesses.
A simply measure would be to insist on declaration of sources and references to those sources, not as rigorously as scientific publications, but modelled on that.
Any article with no source references is simply an opinion piece by its author. Effectively it’s just a letter from a paid employee of the publication. Really no better than a letter from the public. It should be labelled as such, an opinion.
Proper articles should required to end with sources – press release, polling data, political speech, party publication, academic research, or whatever. The reader can then double check accuracy, or follow up the full story.
Why not? Our Stu seems to manage to publish articles fully attributed to sources.
Who are these people that buy newspapers, i had a look at one on saturday afternoon, what did i learn from it, well basically it told me about a so called celebrity was breaking up from another so called celebrity, and another great piece of information, it seems Kelly Brooks was complaining her tits where too big.
Well all i can say to her is, if she want’s to see some really big tits, she should book in for FMQ, Rennie, Davidson and the yorkshire rapper, 3 of the biggest tits i’ve ever seen
Comin’ in at ye wae the Winged Winnebago fly-by version:
link to youtube.com
Raise yer hauns!
I love Uranus.
ROCK
Yes supporting underclass?
you encourage that no-one should resd the only daily supporting independence news paper. You read the graun if my memory serves?
What does that tell me? if it quacks, has webbed feet…..
you are a tory/liebour unionist. You haven’t converted me yet and never will.
heedtracker,
“Thought that this might winkle you out from under your rock.”
Happy new year to you too, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend.
Happy new year to you too, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend
Thanks Rock. Do you think BBC Scotland and their new “democracy reporters” can bring down, get the SMP out in the next two years, in time for May 2021 Rock?
It’s like facing a giant oncoming BBC freight train, with no survivors.
If I was the decider, I’d be now getting indyref2 date settle asap, long before next Scots GE. Because I know the BBC are coming for me and this time they’re going to make sure I never get up off the canvas.
Once the beeb gimps do get their Scotch FM Leonard Nobody stuffed shirt, Scotland’s fcuked for a generation anyway.
Off Subject but worth research anyone noticed that a lot of companies are using the word TOGETHER in their slogans?
For example, this week I’ve counted 18 companies, some of them huge like car manufacturers and banks and supermarkets and so on… i bet its not coincidence but coordinated (Together is another way of saying United maybe?)
What is being missed is that there is a huge number of English people living in Scotland and most are here to work but will at some point return to live in England, they came here to work they are not part of the unemployed in Scotland they nearly all vote conservative but some vote labour or lib dem, they do not vote snp because they are against Scottish independence but the conservatives will accept a labour win and a labour or lib dem will accept a Tory win their priority is to continue the privilege they gain from being English and living and working in their closest colonial conquest which is Scotland.Many of them despise Scotland think it is supported very well indeed by England and they believe Scots are ungrateful and backward.Check your universities hospitals colleges schools government offices and agencies and you will find them full of English people employed by other senior English people when Scots were available and ready to do the job.Its what colonialisation does, it’s going to be difficult to break down that huge insider influence .
England is a great country I like English people I lived there for decades but I would never ever have thought it reasonable for me as a Scot to vote in a referendum on English independence because it’s not my country.My country is Scotland I respect the right of English people to vote on matters relating to Englands constitutional future.
I expect English people to leave us Scottish people to decide Scotlands future without interference but that is not the colonialist way as Scotland is finding out.
And one more thing , I did not call myself a Scottish Englishman when I lived in England and find it ridiculous that we accept these English people calling themselves English Scots .They are English and will not be anything other than English once Scotland is independent because they won’t change their nationality to Scottish once Scotland is independent nor should they.I say to them cut the cr… you are English and proud to be English if you like or love Scotland great but give up the falsehood English Scot nonsense.
yesindyref2 @ 19:47,
heedtracker @ 19:59,
etc.
Actually, I reckon the real problem with The National is that it offers far too narrow an appeal, being mainly populated it seems by fellow-travellers of the Bella crowd. The Bella issue included yesterday was a doom-laden exercise that Rock would surely have approved of if he had bothered to buy a copy. (Ironic or what?!)
After reading it, I could only say “thank God for Alan Bisset”. A true light shining in the darkness. The other assorted crystal-ball gazers seemed to want to delay IR2 until after the next big meteorite hits the Earth, or something. Maybe still secretly hankering for the Second Coming of JC. (Corbyn, that is.) Whichever is more likely to happen first. That plus some entirely side-show navel-gazing. Depressing or what?
I know that the paper is the only thing between us and the raving Yoonitariat, but still. For this Big Year, the indy movement needs a sight more inspiration than Bella at least seems even faintly capable of providing.
Heedtracker @3.20pm
Read your link to an article about Paul Dacre editor of the Daily Heil… last paragraph was astonishing:-
This year, the Mail reported that disabled people are exempt from the bedroom tax; that asylum-seekers had “targeted” Scotland; that disabled babies were being euthanised under the Liverpool Care Pathway; that a Kenyan asylum-seeker had committed murders in his home country; that 878,000 recipients of Employment Support Allowance had stopped claiming “rather than face a fresh medical”; that a Portsmouth primary school had denied pupils water on the hottest day of the year because it was Ramadan; that wolves would soon return to Britain; that nearly half the electricity produced by windfarms was discarded. All these reports were false.
All these reports were false!!!! How are they allowed to get away with that?
That just about sums it all up – specially if you start to add on all the Scottish political falsehoods re the SNHS, Scotrail, etc. shame on him.
Terence callachan @ 22:58,
Hi Terence, we are well familiar by now with your highly exclusionist views on this hoary old subject, so rather than rehearsing them on here again for the n-th time, maybe you would be better addressing your concerns where they just possibly might have some actual effect:
link to consult.gov.scot
Same goes for any other bores on the subject…
(…plus any others with an interest too, of course…)
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Yes. I was totally in tune with Bisset.
And yes, there is a cabal of Scottish lefties who seem to want the same benefits of independence as the rest of us, but somehow believe there is an alternative route to achieving that other than SNP government-> pro Indy majority -> IR2 -> hard work -> Yes win.
Worse, some even hold out hope that the whole UK will shift to the left and deliver a socialist utopia at their feet. Their internationalism content to stay within the confines of these islands.
Frustrating. They need to accept a plan which might work rather than be content to fight the good fight with ideological purity and get nowhere.
@Graeme 9:58
Agree with this.
It would be very interesting to determine what the HOT buttons were with the No supporting yoons. Targetted indyref2 policy positions could then be made attractive to those convertible types.
Not to mention a project fear of vote No to lose your NHS, personal care, free tuition etc, etc.
At the end of the day people look after what they “perceive” to be their own self interest.
@Robert J Sutherland, 10.58pm
“After reading it, I could only say “thank God for Alan Bisset”,
Me too. I don’t understand Jamie Maxwell giving up hope. Our existence as a social democracy is under threat. As William of Orange wrote in the sixteenth century “It is not necessary to hope in order to persevere”.
Andrew Tickell’s article on Friday was very good
O/T
I was walking through Alloa on Friday afternoon, and went past our MP, Luke4swindons’ office, which coincidentally used to house my ex employer. In the window with one sheet of surgeries he is holding, are around a dozen or more flyers advertising the local food Bank, the CAB, and drop in centres for unemployed, for disabled etc. The man obviously doesn’t do irony…
I find it hard to believe that those recycling the press releases and briefings from spads are in the least bit surprised that they are being called out for their fake news (and laziness). Journalism stock has probably never been lower and confidence in the media and the press is virtually non-existent. For this journalists only have themselves to blame.
The National:
My local supermarket is Morrisons which is Britnat central as far as supermarkets go, you need binoculars and a guide dog to find anything Scottish in the place……BUT…. The National is now sold out by dinner time every day when six months ago most of them were still there by tea time
Folk are buying them in areas they never did before and that shows they’re looking for something and believe me if you can sell out the National in Bishopbriggs something’s definitely happening
The Britnats know it and their fear is palpable , that’s why there are more and more of them appearing right here on WOS to tell us how badly we’re doing
They’re gubbed and they know it,it’ll soon be time for the BBC and STV to start bringing on the experts again, we know the ones, Sir Ian Wood to tell us the oil ran out the day before yesterday, Kevin Hague to give us graphs and analysis of Scotlands dire economy from a dog food salesmans point of view and the resurgence of Alistair Darling to just talk mince, well he didn’t get his Lordship for nowt did he
Why were Labour and Tories Chritmas Boxes to the media so heavily laced with even more bile and lies than usual this year and reprinted word for word and reported verbatim
Because they know it’s coming and this time because of the hard grafting monumental work of Nicola Sturgeon umpteen hours a day doing her job while the Britnats have been spending their time crossing their fingers and lying only to come up with the same strategy they did last time our kids aren’t fooled as to what’s the right thing to do
Our kids might not be aware of the history of Unionist treachery to Scotland but they can see very clearly who’s doing the best job right now and who’s talking sense
The Britnats love to talk down our schools and NHS but they never visit them except for a foty, The FM is in every one of our schools and hospitals and actually talks to people,
it will be the difference
Check the FMs twitter and you can tell by the amount of hatred from the Brits how well she’s doing
They have nothing to say, they just spew hate, and folk notice little things like that
Just for the fun of it I upvoted the first comment in the Herald’s article Questions raised about SiU etc. Then refresh, upvote, refresh … didn’t time it but maybe 10 to 20 a minute.
I reckon if 20 patient Indy supporters did it 50 times on a first comment [1] if it was pro-Indy, we could reach 1,000 in 5 minutes or so.
[1] Quicker to scroll down to after a refresh and stands out the most.
anyone with access?
link to telegraph.co.uk
link to thetimes.co.uk
It looks like from these figures being quoted The Labour liars have scored another oen goal. Not sure of the figures being quoted. If it is 1000 over two years. 500 a year. 10 a week in the whole of Scotland. An average of 1+ a day in the whole of Scotland. (Population 5,2Million). These will be probably very old very ill people. Terminally ill getting the best of care. Possibly in and out of hospices as well.
These are really low, low figures and show how really well the health service in Scotland is doing. Obviously disappoint that any one dies while waiting for discharge. Death can be a relief and a release for some suffering great pain. 1+ a day in the whole of Scotland is extremely rare. In a cohort of extremely elderly sick peoples. Or others who can have difficult, complex operations where the outcome of survival can be low. Getting obvious excellent care from the SNHS.
Labout really are so low to try and make capital from death. How low can they go. They couldn’t go much lower. They are just a fecking mess, Especially after the millions of death they have caused. Killing and maining millions of innocent people. At home and abroad. Causing the worst migration crisis since 11WW, wasted £Trillions that could have been spent on healthcare worldwide.
Labour are a dangerous joke. If they ever get anywhere nesr governance in Scotland. The people in Scotland will suffer for it, They caused poverty and destitution in Scotland. The McCrone Report hidden for thirty years, Fifty years of filthy Labour. These psycho bastards ruin the world economy to line their own pockets. Enough is never enough for them. They are an international disgrace. Who in their right mind would join their stinking Party, especially in Scotland. Not many.
.
They are a permanent disgrace, the lot of them. A blot on the landscape. They cause mental health problems. The sight of them makes folk go mental. They are just deplorable . Using figures which show how well the SNHS is doing to try and score appalling points to bring it down. Just to try and get at the SNP doing a brilliant job. Do they think no one will notice?
Corbyn and Leonard are despicable to be leading this carry on. Lower than the low. Corbyn/Labour could have brought May down on the 12th Sept. 2017. Evil vote. Put a stop to the Tory carry on. Instead of colluding with her in every way. May could have been gone. Voting with her or abstaining. Opposition? They couldn’t find their way out of a paper bag. Just despicable as.the Tories. Yet they want to use Scotland or think they can by running down Scotland. They can’t. Go back and think again. Low lives.
Most in Scotland have susted them out. Got their game for their gain. They are not coming back. Best to get rid of them. Then take the fight to the Tories which the SNP will win. Good luck and good bye, Dirty sinking Labour. Labour and their unionist partners even sabotaged the electoral system in Scotland, without authority. In order that voters could not vote them out. Get rid of them. The 3rd rate rejects. Lying troughers. How low can they go. To oblivion. If there is any justice. Most of them should be in jail. Lying, cheating, greedy criminals. Ruining cities and the local economy.
Illegal wars ruining the whole world. Financial fraud and tax evasion. Dirty, stinking lying Labour. Enough is never enough for these criminals. They will not get folk well. Drive them off their heads.
# ben madigan @ 12.48
The SNP website reprises the Sunday Herald article, I think The Telegraph article is based on.
link to snp.org
@yesindyref2
It’s a pity Mr Corbyn disnae read WoS.
Instead of the long winded response letter to Mr Ian Blackford SNP MP, rejecting the invitation to talks on how to stop a hard Brexit and instead keep the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union, he could’ve just wrote your type of code:
GFY, GTF or FO
I suggest the SNP should stop flogging that Brexit dead horse and let the UK parties get on with it.
The SNP’s time would be better spent preparing for indyref2.
A few years ago. An elderly lady who had worked in the mills in Dundee became ill and had to go to hospital. (80+) Quite a character. She could not return to her house because she lived alone and had no family around about to help look after her. She had already had a care package to try and help her stay in her own home. Including meals on wheels which she refused.. She was transferred to a not so busy ward. Not a problem there were extra beds. The ward dealt with mainly day cases. People coming in and out having care that changed their lives. In and out the same day. So not so much need for overnight stays.
The authorities were obviously looking to find a place for her to go. She could not go home because she had been in sheltered housing but could not longer care for herself satisfactory. She was acceptant of the situation. In fact quite cheery and waited in expectation and anticipation. She was taken out on various trips to see if suitable accommodation suited her but to no avail. She did not like any alternative. So she stayed quite happily, too happily? Where the nurses pampered her. Although technically bed blocking. In a ward where that was not a problem.
Bed blocking is a problem because residential home care costs £600 a week. Hospital care costs £600 a day. Helping people stay in their own home, which is highly desirable for the people concerned, is much cheaper.£60-100 a week.
The elderly lady had been taken to see a care home which was quite nice and would have found approval. Unfortunately she spotted the meals on wheels man delivering the meals. It turned out an negative outcome. The search went on. She had put down her two dogs. Quite a difficult decision! Her family sometimes worked abroad so could not look after them. She did not trust any other one to do so. Despite the re homing organisations. A questionable decision.
To cap it all another elderly patient arrived for a short while. She had had a heart operation. In different circumstances. Her house had to be adapted. There were relatives near by. Minor changes made so she could manage. A quite ‘affluent Tory’ was the suspicion of the working class Labour supporting ex mill worker. Things were stressed and taint for quite a while between the two until a happy truce maintained. ‘How does she think she is’ etc, which had to be pacified.
The staff as usual were excellent. Saving people!s lives and doing all they can to make people!s lives work. They cannot be praised enough, An excellent service. Even though there can be slip ups. Such is life in saving people from death and despair. Unlike the unionist Gov.
Rock
Just a polite tip from someone with a little background in social sciences. “Underclass theory” is cod-science of a similar vein to eugenics, it is of the same root and outlook and feeds into ‘austerity’. So there’s a good bit of resistance to even using the term, in case of lending credibility to the theory. There’s also a definite liberal bias within the social sciences, so there’s that to consider, as well. I wouldn’t expect everyone to be aware of this but you might want to give it some consideration in future. Cheers.
P.S. As for, “Same applies to the selfish middle classes, English migrants and the thugs..”. Gonnae no use that big brush of yours, you’re not exactly a dab hand with it yet. 😉
Jings, who dropped that one?
@Ken500: “So she stayed quite happily, too happily? Where the nurses pampered her.”
It’s company as well, and perhaps there’ll be more of this as pensions are paid direct into bank accounts, meaning the pensioners don’t go to the decreasing post offices to collect it and have a blether with others and go for a cup of coffee and a cake somewhere.
It’t the privatised Post Office has been not just closing and selling off POs in Scotland, but making it harder and harder for village shops and other small shops to make any money on having a small counter in them.
Post Office Ltd is owned by the UK Government.
Coco and rock the cock are pure ragin’ these days…the smell of fear from rancorous beasts, emanates from every utterance.
49% Yes latest poll.
Thats potentially 52% with the standard 3% Margin of Error.
Just think, we could LOSE support from right now and STILL become independent !!
And we have not even STARTED indyref 2 campaign yet, in fact, we have not even CALLED it, never mind SET A DATE for it..!!
The No campaign/attacks on independence and the SNP have NEVER STOPPED for 5 years now, and yet support for Yes is RISING !
All 3 unionist parties ran a GE campaign in Scotland on ONE ISSUE, “vote lib/lab/tory to show you do not want indyref2/independence”…
Result ?
11 MORE SNP MP’s than ALL 3 unionist parties COMBINED.
Unionism and opposition to indyref TOTALLY REJECTED at Scottish ballot boxes, just 7 short months ago.
No wonder coco and company are beside themselves with panic.
Yes Scotland, coming soon to a country near you..!!
Just noticed this from Rev’s twitter:
“ Dr Philippa Whitford?
Note a Newsreader talks of A&E target as patients ‘waiting 4 hours to be SEEN’!
Nope, it is to be
Registered,
Triaged,
SEEN by Dr,
investigated (X-rays, bloods etc) diagnosed & either
treated (stookey etc) & discharged
or admitted to ward.
That all has to be achieved in 4hrs!”
Like anyone else probably I too would have thought it was to be seen, but found out talking to A&E and checking it out that it is indeed the lot. But then I’m a punter, not a f*cking “news”reader or so-called “journalist”.
It’s actually a really stupid target, as others have pointed out (unionists too including RR poster on Herald), it’s quite possible that the lower the percentage in some cases the better. In my wife’s case I guess it would have been a total of about 10 hours “waiting”, before she was admitted to ward, rather than surgery at that time. And that was correct, as it wasn’t known if it was immediate surgery or further observation and tests to find out what was wrong. And that was via 2 ambulances from the time the ambulance and paramedic (plus technician) arrived, not trundling along to A&E by ourselves. No complaints about that part, her life was saved.
Press report suggests Teresa May to appoint a “ minister for a no deal Brexit”.
Perhaps our First Minister should appoint a “ Minister for European trade” . ?
Anybody ever noticed that no matter how much Willie Rennie runs down the Tories, and he does it a lot, the Brits never hound him for doing it, they don’t bang on about him wanting his referendum, or Patrick Harvie who vocally demonstrates his loathing of Tories, is never the subject of Britnat snarling
Why not? coz they don’t fear them and they know nobody pays any attention to them, but the FM just needs to smile at people and the Brits hurl all sorts of abuse at her
That’s fear
Men love her, women love her, children love her, even woodland creatures love her, she’s like a Disney movie
And I know that just by saying that it riles them up even more
I’m naughty and I love it
OT
Amazing the things you find out when you read that “Australia warned it risks ‘Mad Max world’ without strategic fuel reserve” – it has 19 days worth. So I found this:
link to gov.uk
“EU Member States (MS) are required to hold oil stocks at the higher of 90 days of average net daily imports or 61 days of average daily inland consumption in order to mitigate a supply crisis.”
Oh no, Scotland can’t be Independent because we have no oil stocks and don’t meet the EU requirements.
Oh wait …
Only one target necessary in our SNHS and that’s to fix people, we’re pretty lucky ours has a fantastic record of doing that
Maybe we should have a slogan *I’ve been fixed by our SNHS*
T Shirts! Twitter campaign! Badges!
Over to you Stu, you know a thing or two about badges
Books beat bus by 66% to 34%.
Same percentage result as the 16 to 34 year old voters to be iScotland.
The youth are going to win it for Scotland.
Yes 2 Yes!
@Cactus
Ah well, first they have to turnout to vote. 2014 overall turnout 83%.
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
age, percent turnout, total in that age group, difference from average turnout in numbers of voters, quite rough, takes no account of non-registrations.
16-17 – 75% – total 118,000, 8% = 9,000
18-24 – 54% – total 491,000, 29% = 142,000
25-34 – 72% – total 726,000, 11% = 79,000
Total who could have voted to achieve the average turnout = 230,000.
For 2016 and whole populations but it’ll do, I can’t find actual numbers who voted to match the percentages.
link to nrscotland.gov.uk
So if they’re 66% to 34% YES to NO (16-34)
link to wingsoverscotland.com
that’s 152,000 YES compared to 78,000 NO, difference = +74,000 YES and that’s the game over for the Union, at 49.2% YES, 50.8% NO for 3.6 million voters 1,771,000 YES and 1,829.000 NO it becomes 1,923,000 YES to 1,907,000 NO, A MAJORITY YES of 16,000 and that’s it, game over for the Union. How sad.
(my maths could be dodgy, needs checked)
Phew. off to my pit 🙂
By an amazing coincidence:
link to thenational.scot
By the way, the average turnout would then increase, so again the number of young voters would also have to increase, but I can’t be arsed at this time of night working out that formula, it might even involve calculus to get there!
So come on 16-34 year olds, save Scotland please, and vote. YES.
I’ve just woken up with a thought on how Ruth Davidson can be both Leader of the opposition at Holyrood AND Secretary of State for Scotland which guarantees her a seat in Theresa May’s Cabinet re-shuffle today. All the PM has to do is make Ruth Davidson a peer.
I’ve just woken up with a thought on how Ruth Davidson can become Secretary of State for Scotland, which would guarantee her a seat in Theresa May’s Cabinet re-shuffle today. All the PM has to do is to ‘promote’ Ruth Davidson to the House of Lords.
link to researchbriefings.parliament.uk
Nicola Sturgeon live interview on radio Scotland in 15mins.
8am.
Where is Ruthie? All the deceit and all the manipulations of the Tory government, doing things even Thatcher would have not dared to do, so where does Ruthie hide?
For sure all the above and the recent poor polling of the Tories in Scotland surely will effect Ruth, so again, she seems to disappear.
This is becoming a habit of hers, when things go awry she just hides, she is not really worth much to the Westminster Tories any more, and her mooth will not get her out of it.
She will count as a number for the Tories but her dreams of grandeur must be fading fast.Her masters now see she is not what she proposes to be, just another poor opportunist who talks the talk but that is about all she does.
Her star is rightly fading and it will be a joy for Scotland watching it do so.
People ask me why independence? What’s wrong with political union?
link to munguin.wordpress.com
I often reply, because…. reasons.
Post Offices get a subsidy (investment). They still need other business to survive. It used to £30,000 a year – depending on business size etc. A public service. A tapered rate? The unionists cut back on the Post Office. The cut back (comparable) Now they receive £10,000.
Royal Mail. They sold off the profitable bit? Let private companies bid? The unionists in Westminster did it. (Labour?) The Post Office support was reduced. When the Royal Mail was privatised. The best bits/most profitable were sold off The Mail runs were extended. The workers hours reorganised. They were changed, Posties They started later. 7am instead of 6 am but worked longer. They worked five days (instead of six) on a rota. (Sunday always off). They can do overtime on their recognised day off. They got higher pay but the job became much more stressed. The physical exertion became more intense, as the work load became more stressed. Many people would leave. A higher turnover of staff. Older worker could not manage and left. To find less physical or less stressful work or just retire. Recruitment became a problem.
Alex Salmond said the SNP would renationalise the Post Office/Royal Mail. Take it back into public hands. It would cost a bit of money but it could be done it is possible to do. If Scotland had the powers. Create a better public Mail service. A good investment. Osbourne went away with £30Billion Royal Mail pension fund. Took it. It is now a (UK) Gov liability. A bad decision. For the future.
Old lady in hospital. 2005 before the SNP came to the fore. Bed blocking was happening than under unionists. At a higher rate? Probably. Unionist Party rule is bad for everyone in the UK. They are just appalling. Westminster corruption and mismanagement. They have killed at a phenomonal rate. They are killing people now with their appalling policies. Their mark of dishonour. They are dishonourable people. Greedy, lying cheats. Impossible.
@yesindyref2
“14% SNP voters voted NO apparently in 2014,”
I know some that did, former labour voters, their argument was that they were better finacially in union, shareholders, worries about dividends etc. But prefer snp at holyrood.
The brexit shit hitting the fan hitting their finances and convince them the merits of independence.
Voters don’t belong to parties
Caucus. Heard GMS interview with Nicola Sturgeon and hope that Labour and Tory leaders will be quizzed on all their miscreants including the Tory councillors and Lib Dem on their election expenses charade.
Also it used to be convention that governing party is allowed to go last in order to respond to opposition claims so why is Ruth Davidson given the last word.
Macart says:
link to mobile.twitter.com
A Tory who is open and honest about what she thinks!
A snippet of this MUST be in a YES political broadcast.
@colin alexander says: 8 January, 2018 at 1:36 am:
Yes! Dear!
Yes! Dear!
There! There! There!
Coffee time Facebook with SiU delights, my Slovene girlfriend in at No.1 of SiU loveliness but FB friends explain how nice it is to see Holyrood Mr Speaker Presiding Officer dude Kenny Mac in there too. Partial and unbiased, I’m sure.
link to scotlandinunion.co.uk
Ken McIntosh Labour Eastwood is SO impartial a PO:D
Undeadshuan says:
Yes. Many folks voted NO because not because they were attached to the Union in some ideological way but because they honestly believed NO was best for themselves and their families.
For IndyRef2 we need to make sure a mad Tory Brexit UK is seen as the risky unsafe option and that an Indy closely associated with the EU is the stable and secure direction.
Indy should represent building on and greatly improving what we have, and a NO vote seen as the way to backward looking ideological vandalism.
@heedtracker
It’s interesting to see all these Labour MSP’s were still working hand in hand with the Tories in collusion with an organisation financed by a small section of the wealthy and privileged.
That’s Labour for you, for the few not the many.
Sinky
Yes it certainly used to be the case of government of the day last. However, at least we can judge if the same questions are asked this way. I would not be in the least bit surprised if the BBC only asked one question to each of the other party leaders. “Can you tell me in your own words just why the SNP are total bastairts?”
The BBC are nothing if not even handed 🙂
@galamcennalath
I’d say so. Pretty much sick and tired of the bullshit headlines and assertions from the usual suspects projecting their idea of nationalism onto the YES movement.
Turn about is fair play. Let’s see some clips of Scottish questions and FMQs cut into YES campaign advertising and YES broadcasts next time out. Show people just what better togetherness really means. Show them what real blood and soil asshattery looks like up close and personal in their livingroom. Give them a taster of Tory nationalism. What they really think and how they really treat their ‘partners’ in the bestest family of nations ever.
The ignorance, arrogance and naked contempt on display in just a handful of clips would be like a bucket of icewater when viewed on primetime.
jfngw
And no surprise to so many Lib Dems, Satan’s little helpers (or whatever the Simpon’s dog was called).
@HandandShrimp
I didn’t bother with the LibDems, they are merely Tories with an agony aunt approach, this was clear from 2010. After all in 2017 we saw how easily their supporters switched to vote for the Tories directly in parts of Scotland.
SIU
5 ‘Uphold decency in Politics’. The mind boggles.
That’s a failure of monumental proportion. A Google now and again. On the internet. For a few basic elementary facts of maths. Elementary facts and figures. The indecent MSM should try it as well. They are just despicable.
a bit o/t
The clip Macart posted should have a wider audience , after watching this politely spoken english artical and her views on scots in general , i wonder if NO voters still believe they are wanted , still regarded as equal members of this scabby union .
If ever a section of deluded stupid scots require to be educated its those who voted NO , the lasting damage these fools have caused is there for all to see , her comments are the reward for stupidity .Happy now ? .
@yesindyref2 5.16
I live out of Scotland, so apologies if SNP HQ, SNP branches, YES groups etc are working on this already – is a voter registration drive underway, especially with the youngest potential voters? If not, I suggest that this is essential preparatory work which needs to be done NOW. (No doubt those opposed to independence are pushing electoral registration for their target voters.)
Robert Graham says:
Aye, sell the Scots into slavery as a solution to the West Lothian Question …. ha fcking ha, very funny.
And anyway … the West Lothian Question? She thinks that’s an issue!? I have news for the wumin, the constitutional debate has moved on a long way from that!
Macart says:
8 January, 2018 at 8:19 am
People ask me why independence? What’s wrong with political union?
link to munguin.wordpress.com
Goodness me that clip of that awful (I would use a stronger term but won’t be reduced to her low level) woman made me really mad. And they (other buffoon Tories laughing) just makes you realise what many of these people think of Scots and Scotland. To think she was allowed to make such a statement in the WM Parliament without being rebuked just shows what contempt these people have for the people of Scotland.
Just another England possession. And we have been sold down the river by our own kind especially Labour and that awful Gordon Brown. I’m ashamed that he grew up in the same town where I was born and bred.
And to think I was a Labour supporter all my life until 2014 when I saw the true light. Labour and the Tories and not forgetting the LibDems are all the same and in it together to the detriment of Scotland and its people.
Let’s hope the majority see the light and get out of this so called “Union of Equals”.
Absolute farce of a Union.
“Maybe we should have a slogan *I’ve been fixed by our SNHS*
T Shirts! Twitter campaign! Badges!”
That’s actually a great idea, Dr Jim.
Macart @8.19: you’ve really done it this time. Showed your clip to the Home Secretary and she’s getting the claymore out the thatch. Will try to calm her down with a box set of Midsomer Murders or summink, usually good for insomnia.
Btw: Cromwell was psychopathic. Ask the folk of Drogheda and Dundee.
They tell a lie then regurgitate, it until the original lie is forgotten. They hope. Unfortunately, for them, many people do not have short memories.
Ken500 says:
Aye Ken,you are right the memories are there. Bare in mind though, the Internet and social media are there, watching and reporting.
In previous times they did not cope well with that, too many questions for them…..
Newspapers are one thing, but I still think one of the most powerful communication tools we might have is Chris Cairns cartoons put up on billboards.
The Hamish factor is spot on, and a picture paints a thousand words. His cartoons are thoroughly excellent and get straight to the point, but do it with appropriate humour and razor sharp satire.
We are going to have an uphill struggle getting any constructive debate broadcast at all in the next few months, and Chris and Hamish could help make the case for Indy.
Its really difficult to understand the thought processes of some of those people in that poll.
But then I suppose the excuse from Labour voters is, its rather difficult for them to know what policy agenda they will actually voting for.
@ Tinto, good to see Dundee getting mentioned, the Dundee Massacre was much, much worse than Glencoe & is largely forgotten.
HandandShrimp concluded post at 10:02am:
“The BBC are nothing if not even handed” 🙁
Oh no they’re not when it comes to women employees.
Carrie Gracie the BBC’s China Editor has resigned because she is paid less than her male counterparts.
Below is a list of what the BBC ‘Stars’,reporters and a motley band of others,receive from the British Broadcasting Corporation.
An interesting list of Who’s Who at the BBC on the radio and TV.
The pay disparity between men and women is shocking.
July 2017 BBC Entertainment and Arts section:
With some photos. 🙂
A word of caution,this is a direct link to the BBC:
link to bbc.co.uk
@Heed
Good find. That SiU Candidates Support for Charter archived at:
link to archive.is
and also
link to web.archive.org
Just in case it accidentally disappears of course.
@exile
I’m not a member any more so I can’t say, but I’d guess they’re taking a break after all the elections and another referendum – a well-deserved break too!
Peter A Bell.
Gets It right There are no Scottish Labour, Tory or Libdum MP’s they are British MP’s the only Scottish MP’s are the SNP ones!
exile at 10.26am
SNP branches across the country at the moment are working with the marked up registers and preparing information for use.
Call Kate misquoted Nicola Sturgeon and discussing NHS crisis at 9 am
RT reporting scotland to allow refugees to vote in local elections.
Bet that the yoons are unhappy with that.